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My JW Best Friend
by OnTheWayOut 6 years ago 21 Replies latest 6 years ago   jw friends
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OnTheWayOut
OnTheWayOut 6 years ago

I have always said to those that had questions about fading that they should expect to lose their friends. It seems that in the vast majority of cases, only family (and sometimes not even them) are willing to overlook JW-weakness and maintain relationships. If you do keep a friend of a JW, then they are potentially deep into JW-weakness. So here's my story of my friend.
I had this JW best friend for years. We originally worked together in the floor-scrubbing, janitorial type of work that JW's do. We worked at night and went out in the preaching work in the day. He pioneered and I didn't at the time, but we were the best of friends trying to support each other in "the truth." I became an elder and he was a bit of a wild surfer dude that, at the time, did not really qualify for position but was a very faithful pioneer, believing in the cause.
He moved away and despite his being a six-hour drive away, I continued to regularly visit him. I was the best man at his wedding. (I was already married when I met him, so he was not the Best Man at my wedding.) My wife and his wife accepted us as the best of friends and fully supported our visiting each other a few times a year. The wife and I would typically take a weekend here and there and visit him in the small town he lives in. He continued to pioneer along with his wife. I know virtually his entire family. His mother is still a faithful JW, but a very free-thinking person. All of his siblings have had rocky roads and some of them have "come back to Jehovah" after some problem that caused their DF, and many of them have not come back. But they all faced it, except for him- a steady faithful JW, a pillar in his congregation.
One day, out of the blue, he called me and asked about a judicial matter that took place. He had some weaknesses and was counseled a few times. Finally, he confessed some weaknesses to the elders and they DF'ed him for it. I was kind of shocked that he would come forward and they would DF him. He said that they told him he ignored counsel and even lied about the matter. (The only lie he told was when they asked "How's it going with your personal problem?" He answered "Fine.") I told him he needed to appeal the matter (as it was the day of the JC that he called me) and proceeded to tell him what they did wrong (in my opinion, but I am sure I was right). He listened and decided that it was going against Jehovah's arrangement to appeal this. He just wanted to take his "reproof" or "severe discipline" and start back on getting reinstated.
He did not appeal, he kept going to the meetings and was reinstated in about 6 months. I do think he had resentment for the elders in his small-town English cong. because shortly after his reinstatement, he moved to a foreign language cong. and learned that language after moving there.
When I first spoke to him about appealing, I told him that I would continue to talk to him and help him in any way I could. He said "NO, I want to get reinstated so let's just follow the rules." He phoned a couple of times in the next 6 months for advice and I gave it to him, but essentially we had no contact until his reinstatement. I was still pretty much a firm JW and an elder at the time, but I had already recognized that "this generation" was not coming to an end necessarily in my lifetime, so I had already viewed the JW rules differently. I had felt free to do as I saw fit instead of checking with WTS, and just not bother to tell the elders everything a person does. My friend knew that of me, and it seemed to be a common bond. I don't think he stayed quite the same over the years, though.
Fast forward quite a few years. He's an MS in his congregation (probably will make elder in a few years or so) and my wife contacted him when I first stopped attending the meetings altogether (as a fast fader). He has continued to call me and try to be a friend. I visited him once when my cross country drive with the wife took us near him. His calls initially were about how "the truth" did so much for him and how Satan warps everything outside of WTS and how he already completely investigated the possibility that WTS is wrong. I think he only read one outside book- THE KINGDOM OF THE CULTS. I tried to read that, but even though I might agree with the majority of what it says, I found it to be more of a handbook for religious intolerance than a book on identifying cults. It seemed very much MAINSTREAM vs. NON-MAINSTREAM in addressing Christianity. It was very heavy on how LDS were wrong because they disagreed with scholarly thought. Again, I can agree with the book, but still not care for it. I doubt it did much for a believing JW reading it.
Anyway, my JW best friend slowly came to the conclusion that he wasn't reaching me. He still continued to call ever so often, but his calls came to be of a very surface relationship. So I called him yesterday and asked him "What about the 800-pound gorilla in the room when we are talking?" I reminded him about my being willing to speak with him while he was disfellowshipped but how he wanted to follow the rules. "Am I free to discuss
the gorilla in the room, my contentions with WTS, or would that be some violation of the rules to you?"
His reply was that I was not DF'ed or DA'ed, so we can speak freely, BUT he has an obligation to stay spiritually clean and will no longer discuss "spiritual matters" with me as long as I am refraining from meetings and all things WT related. He said I am welcome in his home still. He said he would always be there for me. He said he would even be there for me if I were to become disfellowshipped. "OH, I wouldn't be able to have you in my home and we wouldn't be buddies like we are now, but if you were in trouble and disfellowshipped, I would be applying Christian principles and be there to help you."
So, I pushed a bit and got the answer I expected. He is still all about the rules. He is a friend, a very good friend who will bend the rules, but a very conditional friend who will not break them. Oh, I could still be good friends with him. But anyone who has read my stuff on here knows that I am bitter about WTS duping me and holding my wife and mother captive still. To know that my "best friend" cannot even hear the most basic of my thoughts and concerns about why I don't go to the Kingdom Hall is a bit much. And to consider that if I were in dire straits in some imagined future where I have been DF'ed, that I would think to call such a person, then that person doesn't really know me anymore. If I were a suicidal DF'ed "best friend," why would I want to call him so he could tell me that Jehovah understands and is ready to help me? I am just not about that anymore.
So, despite what he said, I am now mourning the loss of my best friend. He will make elder one day and feel compelled to have less contact with me.
 
JWoods
JWoods 6 years ago

I never understood what kind of moral or just even reasonable grounds allow them to make an elder out of someone who has been disfellowshipped...I have a former friend who married three times, was DFd twice, and they have somehow now again made him an elder.
Unbelievable on both sides - that they would do it and that he would still want it.
After all that drama...
 
undercover
undercover 6 years ago

Thanks for sharing...it must be tough.
Looking at it from a strictly impersonal, unattached way...better now than later. As long as he puts the WTS first, your friendship is conditional. Deep down you knew it, you just needed to confirm it. Now you know where you stand and you can act accordingly.
Still hurts though, I know.
On the positive side, though...maybe, since he's had some issues in the past, he'll stumble on to something that shakes him up and he'll awaken from the stupor. If and when he does you can be there to guide him through the pain of leaving the cult and be able renew the friendship.
 
babygirl30
babygirl30 6 years ago

Im sorry about the loss of your best friend. Sadly, it's another example of a 'conditional' friendship that you thought would stand the test of time - but ended up being short lived. What was said by another poster is true: now you know where you stand!
Unfortunately I had a friend like this. She is the 'in/out' type...she would be strong for a few years, get hooked up with a worldly guy, then become inactive and leave the org for awhile relocating to another state. Then dude would dump her and she would suddenly 'love Jehovah' all over again - and confess to the elders. She has gone through this cycle 3 times in all the years I've known her, and each time I have ALWAYS stood by her!! Repeatedly told her that no matter what - i would be there for her and be her friend. And i kept my word too...all 3 times. Now when I was DF'd, she told me the same thing - that should'd be there for me and always be my friend - and I stupidly believed her. Fast forward to about 4 mos ago - this latest guy dumps her and she 'loves Jehovah' once again. She goes to the elders and was getting DF'd - she then proceeds to tell ME that she can no longer speak to ME as she wants to 'do things right this time' and that involves NOT associating with ME. I went OFF on her...and I probably shouldn't have, but I felt betrayed and she needed to hear that how she was treating me was wrong. It freakin hurts to invest time and emotions into a person and when you need them most, they turn their back on you - NOT because you had a falling out, NOT because you did them wrong - but ONLY because you are not the same religion anymore.
 
willyloman
willyloman 6 years ago

OTWO: My condolences. Mourning the loss of "best friends" is all too common among us ex-dubs. It speaks volumes about the condition placed upon "love" by the WT Society and those to adhere to her death-dealing doctrine.
 
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 6 years ago

If your not a JW..
 There are no JW Best Friends..

 In Watchtower World..
 Any JW Friend..Is an Illusion..
 ...................... ...OUTLAW
 
Open mind
Open mind 6 years ago

That was a good, sad, post Jerry.
Here's to better friendships out of the Borg.

om
 
OnTheWayOut
OnTheWayOut 6 years ago

Thanks everyone.
JWoods, I kind of agree. Even from a JW viewpoint, I always thought it best that those that "stumble" should be content to be in the flock instead in the shepherding class. Also, yes it is strange that my friend can totally excuse what happened to himself and totally feel that he wants to be an elder. He isn't reaching out like it's something he needs. He reaches out because he thinks it is the right thing to do, similar to me. But he'll take it when they dangle it in front of him.
UC- I just wanted to be sure I knew where I stand. He stops short of saying he would feel an obligation to follow the rules and "turn me in" if I told him anything. I think he would, though. First, he'd try to tell me to stop telling him something, then the inevitable if I did not stop.
BG30, my deepest sorrow for our shared loss of two different people.
Willy- yes, it does speak volumes.
Outlaw, I always knew that any JW friend is an illusion. I just wanted to be sure. Thanks.
 
VIII
VIII 6 years ago

Very good post. Very sad. Makes me remember a lot of things.
 
OnTheWayOut
OnTheWayOut 6 years ago

OM- thanks. I have great friends already from my much-improved life outside the Borg. Room for more, too.
VIII, I want to post my share of things that might help others while I help myself. Thanks.
 
Girlie
Girlie 6 years ago

Thanks for the post and sorry for your lost OWTO.
So true is that Outlaw. I have JW associates who are trying to contact me now. I ignore them. I don't want to, but I know how it is going to fare in the end. I just consider it doing them the favor.
I have a JW best friend I keep in contact with from time to time still. While she knows I no longer go to meetings, she doesn't know my true view of this cult. And then there is the family factor, which sort of puts me in a limbo.
 
Butterflyleia85
Butterflyleia85 6 years ago

Wow I glad I came across this topic right now I was upset too by the same thing basicly. This makes me feel I have ppl that understand. Yeah That is hard sorry... I understand. It's so frustrating!
 
neverendingjourney
neverendingjourney 6 years ago

His calls initially were about how "the truth" did so much for him and how Satan warps everything outside of WTS
I can sort of relate to your story. There were two people whom I was really close to in my JW days. One of them is a guy who, like me, was raised a JW but didn't embrace the faith until later in his life. I embraced it in high school. He embraced it when he was 18/19 years old. He kind of saw me as a role model because at the time I was a model teenage JW and he was a frequent drug user who associated with gang members. When he finally got fed up of his lifestyle, he turned to JWism. It helped him leave behind what was a destitute lifestyle.
We became close, and I was even the best man at his wedding. He noticed that I began to have issues with the Watchtower, but he never confronted me about it. I think he really developed an appreciation for me as a person outside of the JW realm. When I moved away from my hometown and stopped going to meetings, he continued to check up on me and wouldn't press me too hard on JW issues. Nevertheless, I was familiar enough with the Watchtower rules to know that he could never truly be a friend to me unless I embraced JWism again. After a while, he got the hint and stopped calling me as much. I hear from him every few months now when we used to be in contact on almost a daily basis.
I'm pretty sure in his eyes I abandoned him as a friend because I stopped calling him and not the other way around. Unfortunately, I'm all too familiar with the JW rules and the JW mindset. He, like your friend, is way into JWism because he feels it has helped him out a great deal. In my friend's case, it helped him turn his life around. He's simply not at the point in his life where he's willing to reassess his faith. To try to maintain a friendship with him would simply prolong the inevitable. I preferred to cut ties with him right then and there before giving him the chance to ask personal questions about my beliefs that could potentially jeopardize my fade.
I have another story about the other friend, but I don't want to hijack your thread. Best of luck to you, man. I'm sure it'll all work out for the best in the end.
 
Jadeen
Jadeen 6 years ago

I'm sorry. My JW bestie and I were best friends from grade school. Last time I saw her I introduced her to my then fiance, and she totally snubbed us. That was over seven years ago now and it still hurts.
 
OnTheWayOut
OnTheWayOut 6 years ago

Girlie friend, so many people in my past don't know whazzup. I know the result when they hear.
Even my wife won't tell them when she sees old friends.
BFL85, glad I was there to help.
NEJ, yeah I made sure he remembered that I was ready to break the rules when he was DF'ed just so he could feel that he abandoned me. I still doubt he will see it that way.
Jadeen, sorry to hear your JW bestie story.
 
jamiebowers
jamiebowers 6 years ago

Can you imagine a friendship in any realm other than within the jws where a person would say, "I'll be there for you, except:
you can't tell me what you're thinking, you can't ask me to empathize with you, and we can't actively associate with each other until you think the same way I do?
 
blondie
blondie 6 years ago

I wonder if I ever really had a best jw friend. I moved a lot growing up and friends of any source were hard to find and keep. I wasn't allowed to have non-jw best friends, but I had a couple. One though was forced to drop me when her mother found out I was a jw. That was sad.
I learned at the KH that no one could really be trusted. I listened to the sisters and the brothers gossip about their "best friends." I watched as some destroyed their reputations out of pettiness. I was a slow learner. I thought that if I was a good Christian, I would attract good people.
So in some way I have held people at bay, no longer willing to be hurt. I have found a good man in my life and friends in a support group I belong to in this area. But more importantly I have learned to be a good friend to myself.
Love, Blondie
 
AK - Jeff
AK - Jeff 6 years ago

The false friendship paradox strikes quickly in most cases, and in some rare cases takes a bit longer to deliver the final punch.
When are we having lunch? Any decision on that yet? I'll email you.
Peace
Jeff
 
OnTheWayOut
OnTheWayOut 6 years ago

JB, yes there are probably others like that. But they are not really "friends." They are acquiantances.
Blondie, One though was forced to drop me when her mother found out I was a jw. That was sad.
Maybe her mother was smarter than we could give credit for. Not that YOU were bad, but JW's are bad news. She didn't want her daughter recruited.
I don't know Jeff. See everyone, I already have friends to replace JW's.
 
flipper
flipper 6 years ago

OTWO- I'm sorry you are going through this. Been there done that. I talked to you on the phone about it and just want you to know I consider you a good friend. So as you said - we DO get good friends on the board here who like Butterfly said- do understand what we are going through. I agree with your point that JW family members are a lot more tolerant towards talking about ourconcerns about the organization- although for some of us it depends WHICH JW family member we talk to. Some are hardline, some aren't. But I have found the same thing as you - I've lost most all of my friendships I had over 6 years ago in the cult. But I've made many more friends and aquaintances whose friendship is unconditional and won't judge me just because I miss meetings. Like Blondie said , " I wonder how many actual real friendships I ever had in the cult ? "
Glad I'm out as I'm sure you are as you can meet lots of nice people who accept you as you are. It's a wonderful feeling. Take care, Peace out, Mr. Flipper
 

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My JW Best Friend
by OnTheWayOut 6 years ago 21 Replies latest 6 years ago   jw friends
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blondie
blondie 6 years ago

OTWO, that might have been true if I was the type to recruit anyone at school. In fact, I had a reputation of not doing that. I was somewhat unusual in that my friends at school were all non-jws. I socialized with many non-jw family and friends of my non-jw father, so it wasn't just that I was socially inept. I was in a difficult situation at the hall, rejected by the jw kids because my father was not a jw and I was considered bad association, and now rejected by a non-jw friend because I was a jw. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
I will say again that there are no real friends in the WTS system. They are all conditional. Even marriages take a turn when one spouse backs away from the WT teaching, which is sad. It just worked out that hubbie and I left around the same time with the same mind opening experience. Here's to your wife having her eyes opened and soon.
Love, Blondie
 
Butterflyleia85
Butterflyleia85 6 years ago

Oh and by the way, OTWO, I too have tried to read the Kingdom of Cults and I agree with you. I kinda skipped parts of it though or skimmed parts that didn't really pretain to JWs. It wasn't really what I was looking for and I really had a hard time agreeing with the author. He was very wordy and also had alot of points he just reiterated in different ways. I am still looking forward to the book Crisis of Conscience by Ray Franz that Flipper suggested for me.
 

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Topic Summary
i have always said to those that had questions about fading that they should expect to lose their friends.
it seems that in the vast majority of cases, only family (and sometimes not even them) are willing to overlook jw-weakness and maintain relationships.
if you do keep a friend of a jw, then they are potentially deep into jw-weakness.



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AndersonsInfo
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Tenacious
Has anyone noticed how in the October JW Broadcast, Losch encourages good works towards ALL people?
by Tenacious 5 months ago



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Mormons != JW. Read these genuine quotes from active and inactive members!!
by Qcmbr 9 years ago 72 Replies latest 9 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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Qcmbr
Qcmbr 9 years ago

With interest I find that once again the LDS faith is cast as the twin tower of Mordor to the Watchtower Orthanc. We are not the same my precious. Read these quotes below to see just how different we really are.
Active members (I can't believe how cocky they are!)
"What nutritional value does it have if it doesn't contain Jello?"
"I needed a blood transfusion and both my hometeachers turned up with their sleeves rolled up and their emergency first aid kits."
"I have so much wheat that I've built an extension just to put the silo in."
"My church get's so much money through tithing that you could almost believe it actually is a kingdom."
"I enjoyed my mission."
"Its so cool - I get to go inside the temple and see all the best bits while everyone else just has to bitch about it from the outside."
"I'm in so much debt - I went to university"
"I could never work out why we never put out any literature against other churches? Heck, we don't even belittle anyone on our website. I wish we'd print some 'your beliefs stink' tract or something just to yank the chains of the heathen christians."
"I can undesrtand why some religious people get peeved by us - we have a prophet, a martyr, angelic visits, continuing revelation, new scriptures, healings and stuff. I guess they want us to be boring and give all that up and just do like they do and pretend we know the scriptures better than anyone else so we must be right"
Inactive Members
"Hell, I had to go visit members of my church - even when they had left. I wish I could have shunned some of them. Come to think of it I have some fundamentalist family members who I would love to have a proper excuse to avoid."
"They made me study the friggin bible in the morning! It wasn't like I was even memorising stuff that could be used to bash other faiths. And then on top of it all I had to actually go live it."
"Tithing - what a joke - Abraham did it and look what happened to him. How can anyone think that God could need cash both sides of the birth of Jesus!"
"Like I had to baptise and bless people - they said I had some kind of authority - like you need God to say its OK to do stuff for Him! Heck if I want to I could set up a church right now and God would just have to go along with it and accept I was His rep - God's cool like that - you get to teach what you like and blame Him!"
"I was actually encouraged to work really hard and not accept simple menial work as all I was good enough for. They said I was good enough to be a God and so should try and be great at all things I did- what a crock of garbage - I just wanted to clean floors."
"Hahaha - they said I could actually ask God if any of it was true and that I should only be a member if God himself said I should - ah well how bizarre is that. They miss the whole point about the bible - that's the only proof you need (as long as your willing to accept the latest interpretation ) - there's no need to bother God along the way."
 
jwfacts
jwfacts 9 years ago

With interest I find that once again the LDS faith is cast as the twin tower of Mordor to the Watchtower Orthanc.
Cool analogy. You have got me sold, can I join KidA at the next Mormon baptism?
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 9 years ago

You'll have to get in line - so many people are impressed by my amazing preaching work here and I get a new PM every few minutes with another willing convert stunned by the clarity and power of my typing. I'm actually thinking that maybe I should just bypass the Mormons and just set it all up myself. Why on earth should they get the ten percent. I think I'll re-institute polygamy yehaw.
 
Deputy Dog
Deputy Dog 9 years ago

Q
"I could never work out why we never put out any literature against other churches? Heck, we don't even belittle anyone on our website. I wish we'd print some 'your beliefs stink' tract or something just to yank the chains of the heathen christians."
I guess this person doesn't know his church's history.

"I can undesrtand why some religious people get peeved by us - we have a prophet, a martyr, angelic visits, continuing revelation, new scriptures, healings and stuff. I guess they want us to be boring and give all that up and just do like they do and pretend we know the scriptures better than anyone else so we must be right"
What do they think calling yourself "the only True Church on earth" would lead people to believe
 
stark
stark 9 years ago


"I can undesrtand why some religious people get peeved by us - we have a prophet, a martyr, angelic visits, continuing revelation, new scriptures, healings and stuff. I guess they want us to be boring and give all that up and just do like they do and pretend we know the scriptures better than anyone else so we must be right"
I thought Qcmbr was just kidding around when he posted, this quote was rather amusing.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 9 years ago

Deputy - you almost seem like you care! I'm more than happy to go back to that nutcase ex-lds person who made that quote about the tracts and prove them wrong! I need one that says something subtle - say like 'The End of All False Religion Is Near'. If you can point to where we say we are right BECAUSE we understand the scriptures better I can put to bed another stupid claim from that other quotee (is that a real word hehe)
P.S.If your up for a friendly wager (say your spouse, children and pension??) I'll bet I know LDS history better than you. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:
 
Deputy Dog
Deputy Dog 9 years ago

Here are some more quotes for ya Q
Mormon Apostle Orson Pratt wrote: "The gates of hell have prevailed and will continue to prevail over the Catholic Mother of Harlots, and over all her Protestant Daughters;...the apostate Catholic church, with all her popes and bishops, together with all her harlot daughters shall be hurled down to hell.. ." (Pamphlets by Orson Pratt, p.112). "But on the other hand, if investigation should prove the Book of Mormon true... the American and English nations... should utterly reject both the Popish and Protestant ministry, together with all the churches which have been built up by them or that have sprung from them, as being entirely destitute of authority... " (Orson Pratt's Works, "Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon," Liverpool, 1851, pp. 1-2) Third President John Taylor boasted: "...we are the only people that know how to save our progenitors, how to save ourselves, and how to save our posterity in the celestial kingdom of God;...we in fact are the saviours of the world..." (Journal of Discourses, vol.6, p.163). Tenth President Joseph Fielding Smith stated that there is "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth.... No man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol.1, pp.189-90). He also stated: that the Mormons "are, notwithstanding our weaknesses, the best people in the world. I do not say this boastingly, for I believe that this truth is evident to all who are willing to observe for themselves. We are morally clean, in every way equal, and in many ways superior to any other people" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol.1, p.236). "Every spirit that confesses that Joseph Smith is a Prophet, that he lived and died a Prophet and that the Book of Mormon is true, is of God, and every spirit that does not is of anti-Christ." Brigham Young, History of the Church (vol.7, p.287),
P.S.If your up for a friendly wager (say your spouse, children and pension??) I'll bet I know LDS history better than you. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:
I wouldn't want your spouse, children or need your pension. If you do know LDS history better than I, and still call yourself a Mormon, you have nothing to brag about.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 9 years ago

So the tracts you found are 150 odd years old. Cool. As an additional help see if you can give me something more up to date? I still know my history better than you but I'm not actually bragging - just pointing out (purely in the interests of fairness) that just because you can find disgruntled members and bigots that there is any special linkage between the LDS and the WT. We claim absolutely different things. One is building the kingdom of Jehovah while the other claims to actually be it. One claims that if you don't join you're armageddon fodder while the other says you get further options. One is designed to make its members stupid, dogmatic and rote learning drones while the other makes it a priority to think for yourself and be responsible for your own progression. One has the trappings of a real kingdom including political, military, financial, educational, welfare and diplomatic experience while the other lives in a 1984 world where they talk big and pretend to be big but do nothing relying on a sub-college standard mag to educate and spending time discussing which house they'll be given after they've made it through. I'm sorry but the religion you left is not in the same league. It may have numbers but it isn't a real organisation - if there was no door to door preaching what would there be???? Hmm I just re-read this and hell yeah, I am bragging but ONLY in comparison to the WT - there are plenty of other faiths that have as good/better credentials.
 
Deputy Dog
Deputy Dog 9 years ago

Q
Hey - what's wrong with my wife!!!?
Nothing. I have one of my own, Thanks anyway!
 
Kaput
Kaput 9 years ago

Hey - what's wrong with my wife!!!?
Which one?
 
gumby
gumby 9 years ago

Nice find DD.
So the tracts you found are 150 odd years old. Cool. As an additional help see if you can give me something more up to date?
Qcmbr,
Your comment sounds like it came straight out of the mouth of a witness......and you say you two aren't similar?
If god guides the mormons, then why did they state what they did in these "older tracts" that are now "old light"? God doesn't change does he?
Dream on my friend.....the Mormons are every bit as wacky as the dubs are.
Gumby
 
Mary
Mary 9 years ago

I still know my history better than you but I'm not actually bragging - just pointing out (purely in the interests of fairness) that just because you can find disgruntled members and bigots that there is any special linkage between the LDS and the WT. We claim absolutely different things.
Who gives a damn? The teachings of the Mormon Church are just as whacked as those taught by the WTS, so what difference does it make if they're "different"? Both groups are mind-controlling cults who believe that they have the monopoly on "Truth" and both have a history filled with bizarre teachings that are still taught today. The Mormons still teach that God used to be a man on another planet, that man can become God Himself, that the Book of Mormon is "more correct" than the bible, and that God resides near a star called Kolob. Ya, these are different teachings than the WTS, but they're no less bizarre. And their attitudes towards those who have left their respective religions and expose what's really going on, is eerily similar. Here's the warning about reading 'anti-Mormon' literature from a pro-Mormon website:

Reading anti-Mormon publications
One of [George] Cannon's perennial concerns as general superintendent of the church's Sunday Schools was the inculcation of good values in the young. The big threat was cheap fiction either in the form of paperback dime novels or serialized stories. In his view, such reading was a waste of time. You didn't learn anything useful. Worse, you became emotionally involved with sentimental love stories that distracted from having the Spirit of God. Reading anti-Mormon books and articles was simply a specific form of reading that would produce no good result.
"Men who tell lies, men who circulate lies, and men who believe lies," Cannon said, "cannot have the Spirit of God reigning in their hearts." The practical conclusion is to stay away from such people and such writings:
Newspapers, magazines and books which contain lies and which slander and defame the work and people of God I will not read. I do not want to read falsehood; I do not want my children to read falsehood. I have heard people say many times, "Let us hear what they say about us," and they read works filled with misrepresentations of the work of God. Did you ever read such a work without the Spirit of God being grieved within you? I never did.


And here's a very similar warning from the WTS's own literature:
Watchtower 1994 7/1 p. 12:

At Which Table Are You Feeding?

Some of them smite us and then claim that we did the smiting. They are ready to say and write contemptible falsities and to stoop to do meanness."
Yes, apostates publish literature that resorts to distortions, half-truths, and outright falsehood. They even picket Witness conventions, trying to trap the unwary. Hence, it would be a dangerous thing to allow our curiosity to move us to feed on such writings or to listen to their abusive speech! While we might not think it a risk for us personally, the hazard remains. Why? For one thing, some of the apostate literature presents falsehoods by means of "smooth talk" and "counterfeit words." (Romans 16:17, 18; 2 Peter 2:3) What would you expect from the table of demons? And while the apostates may also present certain facts, these are usually taken out of context with the goal of drawing others away from the table of Jehovah. All their writings simply criticize and tear down! Nothing is upbuilding.
Ya, there's no similarity there at all.
 
gumby
gumby 9 years ago

Eeeeeewwwww.....another asswoopin by Mary! Nice job
I'd forgotten some of the Mormons weirdass beliefs.....thanks!

Gumby Smith
 
free2beme
free2beme 9 years ago

I would have to agree, even before I read all of your post, that the similarities between Witnesses and Mormons, is not as strong as people think. I have known enough active and inactive Mormons to know, they are in another realm of thinking.
 
stevenyc
stevenyc 9 years ago

Mormons aren't the same as Jdubs.
Mormons believe that the men on the moon are much taller.
steve
 
Junction-Guy
Junction-Guy 9 years ago

Yeah the Mormons have their share of wacky doctrines, but if given a choice I would much rather been raised a Mormon than JW, at least their kids can celebrate Christmas, play school sports, plan for college, and Im sure the list goes on and on. I have a stepsister that is Mormon, but I really dont know much about their beliefs other than they're not suppose to drink coffee or soda, or smoke. Are mormon children allowed to have normal childhoods? can they join the boy scouts? can they date? are they allowed to have 'worldly" friends?--enquiring minds want to know
 
stevenyc
stevenyc 9 years ago

Junction-Guy, I know what your saying, but I think its like mice discussing the benefits of mouse-traps over glue-traps. It's still all BS that takes your life away.
steve
 
SusanHere
SusanHere 9 years ago

Are mormon children allowed to have normal childhoods? can they join the boy scouts? can they date? are they allowed to have 'worldly" friends?--enquiring minds want to know

Yes, Junction Guy, our children have very normal childhoods. Every Ward, without exception, has it's own Boy Scout troop. They do all the great Boy Scout stuff, and are encouraged to become Eagles.
Yes, they can date, after the age of 16. They are taught standards of dating and behavior, but can date non-members. The Church also hosts teen dances and activities where non-members are welcome to attend.
Most of my children's friends were non-members ("worldly" I guess you would say). Now grown, they still have many non-LDS friends, and are still active LDS members themselves.

In reference to the quotes about the pamphlets that speak evil of other religions, sorry but what was quoted doesn't hold even the faintest of candles to the ones put out about us and our supposed beliefs. Not even close.
Nor do we carry picket signs outside other churches like people do to us. Nor do we print flyers trashing their religions and leave them on their car windshields. Nor do we block the sidewalks outside the Temple and the Convention Center shouting obscenities to those LDS who want to enter there.
We don't even have classes or lectures purporting to tell the "real truths" about other church's doctrines.
Yes, we believe we are the most correct religion. Why else would anyone ever join any religion? Would you say, "I know this church really sucks, but I like their coffee hour?" I would hope that anyone who joins any religion would believe it to be true. Otherwise, there's really no point, is there?
If we believe we are correct, then we must also believe others are mistaken, at least a little bit. Unlike the JWs, though, we give all other religions the credit for the good that they do, and for whatever they teach that is right, and that blesses people's lives.
When we teach about the Church, we never make comparisons, but only teach our own doctrines and beliefs. We don't believe there is any need to speak evil of other churches. Too bad not everyone can show respect that way.

Susan
 
ringo5
ringo5 9 years ago

Susan, are you wearing your special underwear RIGHT NOW?
alt
 
Junction-Guy
Junction-Guy 9 years ago

Thanks Susan, I dont know much about Mormonism, the only Mormon I have ever known was my stepsister, and she wasnt very devout. I think it's important for a child to have an emotionally healthy childhood, and to experience all the normal things of childhood, such as dating, school sports, boy scouts, girl scouts. It's not right to deny children of so much fun. I personally dont believe your doctrines, but as long as they arent psychologically damaging to children I wont be picketing your temple any time soon.--- Oh I just remembered this, there is a guy I work with who is an Ex Mormon, we had a long talk, I dont remember what his beef with Mormonism was. I told him about how difficult it was to be raised a JW, but he didnt seem to have any of those type issues with Mormonism.
 

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Mormons != JW. Read these genuine quotes from active and inactive members!!
by Qcmbr 9 years ago 72 Replies latest 9 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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tetrapod.sapien
tetrapod.sapien 9 years ago

j-wits are not mormons, and mormons are certainly not j-wits (dr. suess! help me out!). but that's all i have to say about their *glarring differences*. thanks for laying that one to rest once and for all Q.  nighty-nite, all's white...well, the important ones are, anyways.
tetra
 
Kaput
Kaput 9 years ago

Wow!! Sounds great, Susan! I'd sign up, but Mormons are part of Satan's wicked system!
 
Pahpa
Pahpa 9 years ago

Of course, there are great differences between JWs and Mormons. But there are also similarities as well. I was always amazed at the historical aspect of both organizations. Joseph Smith and Charles Russell were deamers and idealists who established a religious movement. Their followers gave them god-like status believing that they were the instruments of God revealing "truth" to the world. ( Both claimed insights by means of an Egyptian connection, the golden plates and the pyramid of Khufu.)
When these men passed away, two pragmatic men took over the organizations. Brigham Young established the LDS church and increased its membership throughout the world. He caused divisions among the original group. Likewise, Joseph Rutherford maneuvered to take over the Watchtower Society. He purged the organization and tolerated no opposition to his authority.
It will be interesting to see if the Watchtower Society will follow the lead of the LDS church when it dumped some of its more bizarre teachings (such as multiple wives) through a revelation and become more acceptable to the public.
 
daystar
daystar 9 years ago

The most important difference I've observed is simply that Mormons allow their members to be a member of the society in which they live. In fact, it's an expectation.
What that tells me is that the dogma can be as kooky as you like as long as you're allowed to live a relatively normal social life.
 
kid-A
kid-A 9 years ago

"Cool analogy. You have got me sold, can I join KidA at the next Mormon baptism?"
Sorry! You already missed the boat, I had an "express" baptism last friday and this picture of me just snapped this morning, spreading the joy and bliss!!! LOL
The old lady didnt want the Book of Mormon but I DID manage to sell some encylopedias!

 
tetrapod.sapien
tetrapod.sapien 9 years ago

Sorry! You already missed the boat, I had an "express" baptism last friday
lol! cool kid-A! so now, after all these years, you finally get to go to college? ha ha ha!! oh right, only after two years of bothering people at their doors. right. ha!
tetra
 
kid-A
kid-A 9 years ago

"lol! cool kid-A! so now, after all these years, you finally get to go to college?"
LOL! You know it, brother Tetra! FULL SCHOLARSHIP to Brigham Young.....I'm currently working on my history dissertation: "Jesus...the last of the mohicans?"
 
smellsgood
smellsgood 9 years ago

"So the tracts you found are 150 odd years old. Cool. As an additional help see if you can give me something more up to date? I still know my history better than you but I'm not actually bragging - just pointing out (purely in the interests of fairness) that just because you can find disgruntled members and bigots that there is any special linkage between the LDS and the WT. We claim absolutely different things."

You wonder why people compare Mormonism and the WT and then you write things like this? ARE YOU KIDDING ME? Replace what you said about the LDS with the"SOCIETY" and you ARE A JEHOVAH'S Witness AGAIN!
Using the 150 years old line???? LOL! Woooow, and the Bible is how old? And is it relevant to LDS teachings at all? I know it's kind of like the WT magazines with the Book of Mormon, The Pearl of Great Price and Doctrines and Covenants, you say it's "Based on " Or in the case of "LDS" continuing revelation, goes hand in hand with the bible, etc etc.
By the way has your wife been given her special name for you to call her by in order to secure her salvation?
It's not the doctrinal similarities at all, Mormonism is far more outrageous and see through in the sense that you don't even have to know the history to go ummmmmmm, what?
It's the socialogical tactics that are the same, because it is the SAME SALAD, DIFFERENT DRESSING.
I can't believe you said "disgruntled members" when that is nearly the party line of the WT when anything negative is said about the society.
BTW, the "cults of Christianity" teach incredibly different doctrines,,,but guess what?
They're pretty uniform in what they deny. Kind of interesting I think.
Can't you see that you are defending the LDS in EXACTLY the same way a Jehovah's Witness would defend the WatchTower? Ad Hominem?
You have been owned twice now by seriously messed up cults! Are you addicted to religiousity?
I'm worried that if you leave the LDS now you'll join the Unification Church.
Q said: "If you can point to where we say we are right BECAUSE we understand the scriptures better I can put to bed another stupid claim from that other quotee (is that a real word hehe)"
No, just restoration of the first century Christianity which was lost....same ole same ole

I think you may be evanglizing so much because you don't want to face the fact that you may be wrong AGAIN, and that a belief structure you've built up is built on sand....AGAIN.
 
undercover
undercover 9 years ago

if given a choice I would much rather been raised a Mormon than JW, at least their kids can celebrate Christmas, play school sports, plan for college, and Im sure the list goes on and on.
I knew some Mormons growing up and while they had some of the same grooming issues us JW kids had (no long hair for guys, no short skirts for girls, etc) and were morally uptight like us, they did play school sports, joined after school clubs, went to and participated in the pep rallies and went to school dances and proms. And they were encouraged, not just allowed to go, but encouraged to go to college.
Later in life, I got to know some more Mormons and learned a little more about, not so much the religious beliefs, but the everyday life of a Mormon. The Mormon philosophy is pro-family and the church has programs for making sure the youth are attended to, not just in doctrinal issues, but in recreational and support issues. I was impressed at how close knit their community was compared to a JW congregational community.
The darker side of all that community life is that it indoctrinates their youth into their culture more deeply than just going to 5 meetings a week and knocking on doors on weekends. Its no wonder why JWs can't keep young ones in...they do nothing for them except guilt them into going to meetings and service. There are no programs for the youth. I'm a little surprised that the WTS hasn't figured this out and instituted some programs (all a front, of course) to "help" the youth (while at the same time praising themselves at how Jehovah loves children and is using the WTS to train them )
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 9 years ago

smells good - nice post - haven't a clue what your on about.
 
james_woods
james_woods 9 years ago

Qcmbr - was this thread an apology for Mormonism?
Speaking for myself, I see a lot of similarity in all the cults...Mormon, JW, Scientology, Bagwan Bagsheesh Yoga, Kabbala, you name it.
It is not good enough for me to just point out "my favorite cult does not quite have the same faults as some one else's favorite cult".
Cults is Cults.
Maybe it is time for you to change your underwear.
Sincerely,
James
 
LittleToe
LittleToe 9 years ago

Following on from Undercover's comments. It seems that the JWs attempt to indoctrinate the mind while the LDS the emotions.
I've heard it put that the JWs are Presbyterianism gone wrong, whereas the LDS are the Charismatic church gone wrong. I'm not going to defend or attack the "gone wrong" comment, as I'm only quoting, but it does demonstrate the completely different angle that each ethos is coming from.
 
lovelylil
lovelylil 9 years ago

Hey all,
For those who believe that being a Mormon is better - please read the book "under the banner of heaven". It is a true life story about two mormons who murdered a young woman and her child. The reason behind it is what is so interesting. Seems like they view "worldly" people and "apostates" with just as much disgust as the JW's. Only these two guys took it a step further.
One of the killers gives the reasons for the killings and an inside view about growing up in one of the mormon fundamental type sects and the indoctrination. The similarities between the mind control in the JW's and the Mormons is very striking. Of course this is a fundy group but the author of it goes back into the history of Mormonism too to see why these people felt the way they did. And like pahpa pointed out, they have very similiar backgrounds to the JWs.
I also read some of their literature to keep a friend from joining, I needed to find out what they believed to help her:
Like the JW's they believe they are the only true religion
They believe that there will be a new world that only Mormons will live in
They view anyone outside of their church with disgust and they are deserving of death for being sinners
You must be 100% loyal to the upper men who speak from God and decide all matters of doctrine
While the JW's believe in "new light" the Mormons believe in "new revelation" (both go contrary to the bible)
The JW's had Russell in the beginning as their 7th messenger, that servant, etc. Mormons have Smith as that special agent, messenger of God
The JW's believe their work is directed by angels, the Mormons believe the same thing
The JW's have their own bible, the Mormons have "book of mormon" which is on the same level as the bible
They both use other writings by thier leaders to interpret the bible (contrary to the bible itself)
They both believe that God only answers their prayers and protects them from harm
There is much more but these are a few of the glaring similiarities. Lilly
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 9 years ago

Lovelylil - what codswallop. When you read such fiction as the book you cite and suggest it is of worth and then spout the most blatantly garbage set of beliefs bfor a faith you know little of - knowing full well LDS members post here and can put you straight I am surprised at your bravado. This topic was a humorous rebuff to the falsehood put out in the LDS and JWs brainwashing thread.
 
lovelylil
lovelylil 9 years ago

Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear,
The beliefs I stated that Mormons and JW's have in common were not taken from the book I mentioned. While it is some fiction it is based upon the fact of some murders by two Mormons. One of the killers himself raised a Mormon gave his own personal experiences about it to the author of the book.
The beliefs were taken from their own literature of which my friend gave me. She was having a "bible study" with some mormons. We also looked over the book of Mormon together. All the things I cited as common beliefs, one true religion, only they can intepret the bible, believing in a great prophet or teacher from God, new revelation which is the same as new light......these ARE beliefs or Mormons. I did not make this up.
It was not my intent to offend anyone and perhaps the point of your thread escaped me, I was only adding to paphas post in which he cited some similarities between the two groups. I am not judging Mormons although I did not want my friend to go from the JW's into the Mormons for obvious reasons. The Mormons have a right to believe what they wish. Sorry for upsetting you, Lilly
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 9 years ago

Its Ok LL - you get the whammy from me reading other posters and typing faster than I think.
 
james_woods
james_woods 9 years ago

OK, since I have no response so far:
Qcmbr - was this thread an apology for Mormonism?
Qcmbr - also, just for the record: what the hell is a codswallop?
Lil - good answers, but I am afraid they are going to waste here. I also forgot to mention the Russelite movement as one of the similar cults.
James
 
AK - Jeff
AK - Jeff 9 years ago

I don't get it - the whole post!
When I read the quotes that supposedly detagged the similarities, all I saw was similarities with a few differing terms.
Jeff
 
james_woods
james_woods 9 years ago

Let's try this on for size:
The root similarity in all of the cults is::::::::>>>>>> "CONTROL FREAKING"!
And if you don't think the JCLDS has this in spades, just read some of their history in Utah - including how the president of the United States had to call out the army to restore order in the state. Or park your RV in a trailer park in Salt Lake City where they blast you with church propaganda from early afternoon to long past sundown from the loudspeakers.
PS, Lil - Guess I forgot to mention "Jim Jones & the Peoples Temple of Doom",as one of the cults too.
Want to hear a pin drop? Go to your local bowling alley, IMHO.
James
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 9 years ago

This post gets more meaningless the further it gets away from an original post about Mormons and JWs being the same which used quotes from some zealous LDS and ex-lds as a primer for comparisons - specifically regarding brainwashing. codswallop noun, Brit slang nonsense. ETYMOLOGY: 20c. This is not a Mormon apologetics post at all. This was a (fairly failed) attempt to be funny (clearly the quotes are ME just farting around and took an exhaustive two minutes to create) rather than simply responding to Kid-A s bait on Mormon recruitment I thought I'd try and take a softer more fun tack on a highly emotive subject (for me). If anyone has genuine questions about the LDS faith I can answer them but I wouldn't ever consider this a recruitment opportunity here.
 

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Topic Summary
with interest i find that once again the lds faith is cast as the twin tower of mordor to the watchtower orthanc.
we are not the same my precious.
read these quotes below to see just how different we really are.



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Mormons != JW. Read these genuine quotes from active and inactive members!!
by Qcmbr 9 years ago 72 Replies latest 9 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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kid-A
kid-A 9 years ago

rather than simply responding to Kid-A s bait on Mormon recruitment
Hey dude, dont lay this on me! LOL.....
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 9 years ago

'tis a compliment to you that I care enough to respond.
 
Abaddon
Abaddon 9 years ago

Wow... for a minute there I was going to congratulate Qcmbr for throwing off the shackles of another stupid religion AND developing critical thining skills AND a sense of irony, all apparently overnight
Seems I am to be disappointed. Actually I am utterly flabberghasted that you can post that stuff and then not see the similarity, but there you go. I always thought leaping from the frying pan into the frying pan made you window-lickingly special... nice bloke, yes... but special... unfortunately "once bitten twice shy" seems to be edged out by "some of the people all of the time" for Qc.
Yes Qcmbr, Equus zebra and E. hartmannae are different. As are Giraffa camelopardalis thornicrofti and G.c. tippelskirchi. No one would ever mistake one for the other
As you are comparing them, what would you say differentiates two groups that;
1.Claim they are Christian
2.Practice shunning
3.Have a belief in "truth revealed" to someone in 19th C USA
4.Place faith in psedu-cannonical literature that is claimed to be inspired without any proof of the same (not that cannonical literature can prove anything, but you get my point I hope)
5.Place restrictions upon adherents not found in the Bible
6.Place expectations on adherents not found in the Bible
7.Believe in spirit guidance of modern day leaders
8.Have had and still have doctrines that are offensive and damaging and/or utterly ludicrous (LDS = blacks are 2nd class humans, you have loads of wives, you get your own planet, JW = vacinations and organ transplants are bad for you, blood still is, Lions will lie down with lambs in Paradise and not eat them...)
... ? ... ? ... ? ... ? ... ? ... ? ... ? ... ? ... ? ... ? ... ? ... ? ... ? ... ? ... ? ... ? ... ? ... ? ... ? ... ? ... ? ... ? ... ? ... ? ... ? ... ?
Please, minutae aside, what's the difference?
James: "codswallop" means a load of rubbish, bullshit, gobledygook, or Republican political policy
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 9 years ago

I'll post a proper differentiating list tonight when I'm not at work.
 
lovelylil
lovelylil 9 years ago

Qcmbr,
With all due respect,
I think what most are trying to say is that even though you as a Mormon can see that there are obvious differences between your church and the JW's, WE as ex JWs can see the similarities and that is because most religions that claim to have the ONLY truth are similar by nature. Most of the commonalities that people have pointed out, you have said were not true, but these things can be found in your own literature. We are not making it up for instance that you believe in "recent revelation" are we? well this is the same thing as "new light", the name of the term is different but the principle is the same. The other points that were mentioned are the same. You have different terms that is all.
Frankly I was struck by how similiar the mindset is of JW's and Mormons when I read the Mormon material. Anyway, that being said, you have a right to believe what you want. But I think if you post anything else Mormon, you are only going to get negative responses and it will make you upset. So why bother? Many on this forum do not believe in organized religion anyway so it is not like you are going to convert them. And this is an open forum so you have to expect that you will get counter arguements against whatever you post.
Hope you don't take this the wrong way, it is just my observation.
Peace, Lilly
 
james_woods
james_woods 9 years ago

Qcmbr posts:
If anyone has genuine questions about the LDS faith I can answer them but I wouldn't ever consider this a recruitment opportunity here.
__________
My genuine (recruitment) question is: Did they make you do the missionary thing? JW made me do the pioneer thing. If you did, you probably had about the same results in "recruitment" that I got in "field service". Do you see a similarity in at least that part?
My genuine observation is: It is still all about "control".
My genuine (why this thread) question is: Was this an apology for Mormanism or not?
If so, and if you do not consider it a recruitment opportunity, then why this stuff on an ex-JW site?
If not so, why this thread?
James
 
kid-A
kid-A 9 years ago

'tis a compliment to you that I care enough to respond. Except that you have'nt responded beyond hand waving and circular defense strategies....answer James questions and THAT would qualify as a response.... Many others, beyond James and myself would be delighted to hear the explanation of your agenda, and what it's doing on an ex-JW recovery board....
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 9 years ago

Er.. just a little puzzled as I ALREADY answered James a couple of posts up.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 9 years ago

Right let's put this to bed:
This thread was in response to post http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/124927/1.ashx which as part of its title specifically pointed out that mind control was part of the similarity. Kid-A I'm presuming was referring to me in one of his replies and so I decided to take the bait BUT not to do so in a nasty way but in a tongue in cheek fun way. I take issue with the premise of the above thread ergo I wanted to put another view that is virtually impossible to derive from people who have not been Mormons - you cannot tell our story.
Now James - you are entitled to think 'this' is all about control but as I clearly stated this was not an apology for my faith just a 'fun' response to a previous thread copied in style but done in slight self mocking and paraody. I apologise it didn't communicate itself as such. I disagree that this is an ex-JW site - discuss to your hearts content but its clearly filled with many ex-JWs and others.
Why am I here - I like it. I get to discuss stuff that I generally can't, there are plenty of Mormon mentioning threads so you can't say that this is not a topic of interest to people here and if you note I rarely start a thread discussing my faith but I often respond to ones that mention it. I think you'd agree that is fair and isn't me proselyting.
I wasn't forced to go on my mission , I chose to go and I baptised 74 people. I hope that is similar to your door to door experience and as a side note I loved it both as a life experience and because of the spiritual experience. I love my faith and if you cut me I bleed Mormon - that's just the way it is. I don't think it is preaching to say you love your faith. If you disagree then using the same standard there are plenty of proselyters here preaching their lack of belief and derision for those who believe.
Are the beliefs wierd - just a matter of persepective, any bible believeing christian can't even begin to judge. Wierd is not an indicator of wrong in my book.
Abaddon a list of differences:
◦Source of authority claimed - (Heavenly vision V. One man with another bible interpretation)
◦Understanding of purpose of life - (Become like God V. Live on perfected earth forever)
◦Shunning - (LDs actively reach out to those who leave V. Matter of faith not to visit.)
◦Relationship To Other Faiths - (LDS have no preaching work against other faiths V. JWs regularly producing media detracting from others faith.)
◦Path to God - (Faith in Jesus V. Faith in WT)
◦Afterlife - (All get to continue progressing V. All dead until resurrection)
◦Secular Education - (Encouraged V. Discouraged)
◦Family - (Eternal Unit V. Divided - esp. if one anointed)
◦Scripture - (Inspired but corrupted V Inspired and Deified)
◦Revelation - (Ongoing V Stopped)
◦Spirit - (Person V Power)
◦Kingdom - (All Areas Of life V Preaching Only)
◦Responsibility - (Get Own Witness V. Accept WT Witness)
◦Celebrations - (Accepted V Banned)
◦Preaching - (2 years mission + lifetime example V Lifetime knocking)
I contend that my faith is built on personal searching and the embracing of all knowledge which does not equal brain washing to me. If I leave the faith my family would be disappointed but would still talk to me, I would be visited by members until I requested that my name be removed from the records. There are plenty of similarities but I would suggest that doctrine isn't one of them, the final goal is different and the route to achieve that goal is radically different. My mormon culture is rich and fulfilling in a way that for me English general culture isn't. I hope the JW culture has as much to offer for those who still believe and those who have left have found acceptance and love in other ways.
 
james_woods
james_woods 9 years ago

OK - now we have this much information: Qcmbr did go on a mission.
This makes me wonder - were youever a JW?
If not, then I submit that you are here trying to spread/defend Mormonism to people who have already had the traumatic experience of leaving the horrible JW cult.
If that is so, then I don't see your thread as a funny joke.
And I don't see anybody else here laughing, either.
James
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 9 years ago

James - I can't make you out. I never said I was a JW. I've said I'm not proselyting (anyone wish to point out where I've PM'd peopel while preaching or said people should join my faith????!!!) If James you can find a way to prove I'm proselyting I suggest you report me to the mods as I'm fairly sure that isn't allowed. If you feel threatened by an LDS poster block me and don't read my posts - it isn't difficult. If you don't like English humour then that's fine but don't pretend to speek for the world and bully me.
 
kid-A
kid-A 9 years ago

Whatever Q.
As I've mentioned numerous times before, I have mormons in my family and they are just as whacked out as the JWs. Its the same sh*t, different pile.
Have you wondered why 90% of the posts on this thread have arrived at the same conclusion? Because ex-JWs, perhaps more than ANY OTHER group of humans on the
planet, KNOW a cult when they see one. Ironically, the same is true for ex-mormons, and I know quite a few of them as well.
 
james_woods
james_woods 9 years ago

OK, Qcmbr, whatever you say about English humor - but you have to realize that practically everybody here is in a process of identification of their own code of belief after being demonstrably harmed by (and thankfully escaping from) a high control cult.
We will, therefore, willingly thrash over any other similar group that attempts mind control over it's members.
It is not a personal thing against you, Joseph Smith, BYU, or your church.
But we do see a legitimate similarity to the JW organization (no, not every little doctrine, but in basics) and don't mind saying so. If this site were the Alchoholics Anonymous we would hardly take it lightly if somebody came here and espoused the good qualities of beer as opposed to hard liquor.
I am going to look over some of your past post history because perhaps I understand you as little as you seem to do me.
Anyway, have a good day.
James
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 9 years ago

So Kid-A have we moved far enough away from both this thread and the original one to simply be rude and have a go? Seems like we have. I haven't seen much intelligent discussion on any of the important points bar from a few posters. It is the easiest thing in the world to point at something and play to the cheap seats by just swearing and making obnoxious comments - I hope you agree.
Does anyone wish to discuss similarities and differences without just resorting to the 'it's all cr*p' route? While I gave Lily a hard time she at least put together a list based on her experience. I think maybe LT had a good idea that deserved exploring. For all the rest of you who are presumably falling under my spell and gagging to join another faith PM me (NOTE joke - don't).
I find it amazing that a guest on this site can be made to feel so unwelcome. I thought experience would breed acceptance not intolerance. In my mind I find a perspective on life and my faith from posters here that I cannot get within my own community nor from ex-LDS boards (I'm sure they have their share of active LDS just as you attract active JWs.) While I may not make it onto anyone's favourite poster threads I hope that somewhere in my 1000 odd posts you can see a person here not an LDS missionary badge.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 9 years ago

Thanks James - seems there is always a space between the words for understanding. I appreciate the response.
 
AK - Jeff
AK - Jeff 9 years ago

All I can say, Shakespeare said far better:
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive." Or substance.
Jeff
 
lovelylil
lovelylil 9 years ago

Personally, I'm with Jeff,
Q,
I tried to warn you to just let it go. but hey I was once a self righteous pioneer for Jehovah's Witnesses and bled my faith too, so I understand your wanting to defend your faith. I've found that the better "christian" way is to find a common ground with all people in the world, whether atheists, christians, budhist, muslims, etc. If you truly believe in Christ and understand what he was about, then you would know that he died for ALL of mankind and not just Christians. Unless of course your faith teaches like the Witnesses, that you are the ONLY ones who will be saved? Never mind, don't answer that. Glad you finally put it "to bed", nighty, night!
Wishing you peace, Lilly
 
JWdaughter
JWdaughter 9 years ago

"You'll have to get in line - so many people are impressed by my amazing preaching work here and I get a new PM every few minutes with another willing convert stunned by the clarity and power of my typing. I'm actually thinking that maybe I should just bypass the Mormons and just set it all up myself. Why on earth should they get the ten percent. I think I'll re-institute polygamy yehaw."
Ok, you got a laugh out of me! Can you revise the law so we can have two husbands?
 
JWdaughter
JWdaughter 9 years ago

I haven't read all the posts, but there are a couple of things I would like to address. No matter what the age, unless it is scripture or specifically given as a prophecy, LDS people do not consider every word of a member, LDS publication (not scripture), or even apostle or prophet as being the words that the Lord gave them. It is pretty much 'thus saith the lord" or the lord didn't say it, men did. Even the Journal of Discourses isn't considered to be 'official' teaching-that a Mormon must accept, or else. (I THINK on the JD). So, if Ezra Taft Benson wrote something in his 1962 book about working with Eisenhower that related to his faith or belief in the Gospel of the Church, it is not official doctrine or teaching-even though he later became the president and prophet of the church. If this was already addressed, I am sorry.
 
JWdaughter
JWdaughter 9 years ago

There are similarities between the two religions. I have heard some mention the shunning-however, I don't see that in my experience. With two LDS friends who were gay, they had parents and church members who still love them and support THEM as people, even if they dont believe that they have a good lifestyle. Or I should say, one of them still. The other ones funeral I attended, given by a bishop in the local ward building, attended by hundreds of LDS friends and others-after he died from AIDS.
I really hope you all will trust me when I say that in the most important issues we have with the WT, the LDS church is not guilty of them. I am not saying it is faultless or perfect, and I don't believe it is the 'only true church'. But as much as I have come to think that religion in general isn't nec. God's idea so much as OURS, I don't think it is any worse than any other mainstream religion, and frankly, socially and in other ways, superior to many. If their teachings do anything negative, it could be the unquestioning loyalty that many LDS feel, even when they have doubts. Doubts are much less painful to express in the church however, so even in that way, it doesn't coincide much with the WT way. I wrote more but erased it, I will spare you all my full thoughts on the subject, but i think the LDS church does what churches are supposed to be doing-in many ways. The social benefits are superior and much more loving than anything I saw in the KH or organization. I have no false illusions, I have had 25 years of association with the LDS church, which didn't end because I left the church. I also have had a lifelong association with JWs and the WT (my mom is still in, as well as many family members so I can't totally escape association). I know the difference, I know the concerns of ex-JWs, and on paper/internet you may see similarities, but in real time-they are a very different kind of group. I still wouldn't go claiming a testimony, but I can go to the LDS church without those internal barfs you all get when too close to a koolaid drinking JW :smile: .
 

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Topic Summary
with interest i find that once again the lds faith is cast as the twin tower of mordor to the watchtower orthanc.
we are not the same my precious.
read these quotes below to see just how different we really are.



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Mormons != JW. Read these genuine quotes from active and inactive members!!
by Qcmbr 9 years ago 72 Replies latest 9 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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SusanHere
SusanHere 9 years ago

Qmbr wrote:
Abaddon a list of differences:
◦Source of authority claimed - (Heavenly vision Vs. One man with another bible interpretation)
◦
◦Understanding of purpose of life - (Become like God Vs. Live on perfected earth forever)
◦
◦Shunning - (LDS actively reach out to those who leave Vs. Matter of faith not to visit.)
◦
◦Relationship To Other Faiths - (LDS have no preaching work against other faiths Vs. JWs regularly producing media detracting from others faith.)
◦
◦Path to God - (Faith in Jesus Vs. Faith in WT)
◦
◦Afterlife - (All get to continue progressing Vs. All dead until resurrection)
◦
◦Secular Education - (Encouraged Vs. Discouraged)
◦
◦Family - (Eternal Unit Vs. Divided - esp. if one anointed)
◦
◦Scripture - (Inspired but corrupted Vs. Inspired and Deified)
◦
◦Revelation - (Ongoing Vs. Stopped)
◦
◦Spirit - (Person Vs. Power)
◦
◦Kingdom - (All Areas Of life Vs. Preaching Only)
◦
◦Responsibility - (Get Own Witness Vs. Accept WT Witness)
◦
◦Celebrations - (Accepted Vs. Banned)
◦
◦Preaching - (2 years mission + lifetime example Vs. Lifetime knocking)
I contend that my faith is built on personal searching and the embracing of all knowledge which does not equal brain washing to me. If I leave the faith my family would be disappointed but would still talk to me, I would be visited by members until I requested that my name be removed from the records. There are plenty of similarities but I would suggest that doctrine isn't one of them, the final goal is different and the route to achieve that goal is radically different. My mormon culture is rich and fulfilling in a way that for me English general culture isn't. I hope the JW culture has as much to offer for those who still believe and those who have left have found acceptance and love in other ways.

Thank you, Q, for giving me a good laugh with your earlier joke (yes, I thought it was good!) and for your comments above. Please know that your efforts are appreciated at least by some in here. And don't allow the intentionally rude ones to drive you away. You are needed here.
And, c'mon people! Isn't his "differences" list pretty clear in showing that there are actually many key differences in major doctrinal points between LDS and JW?

Susan
 
smellsgood
smellsgood 9 years ago

Qcmbr,
I think I may know why you didn't get it....I have assumed all along that you were an ex-JW turned Mormon post Watchtower, and that is where I was coming at you from, but it seems that maybe you were never a Witness?
I know, if you assume you make an ass out of u-and-me. But mostly me this time :smile:




And the perfect Platform, Susans comment here:

"And, c'mon people! Isn't his "differences" list pretty clear in showing that there are actually many key differences in major doctrinal points between LDS and JW?




Susan, please pay close attention to what I am going to write here
THE
 "MAJOR DOCTRINAL POINTS"
DIFFERENCES
ARE NOT
WHAT HAS BEEN REPEATEDLY POINTED OUT AS THE SIMILARITIES BETWEEN THE LDS AND THE WATCHTOWER




Ok, Let's see the perfectly GAPING differences between
the "MAJOR DOCTRINAL POINTS"
of the WATCHTOWER SOCIETY
and the UNIFICATION CHURCH, otherwise known as the MOONIES
and then after we observe these IRRECONCILABLE DOCTRINAL DIFFERENCES
let's examine why I CAN SAY WITH GREAT CONFIDENCE THAT THE WATCHTOWER and the UNIFICATION CHURCH
are INCREDIBLY SIMILAR, AND THE REASONS AND EXAMPLES OF WHY THAT IS SO
DESPITE
THE "MAJOR DOCTRINAL DIFFERENCES"
savvy?
Moonies VS: Watchtower
*Source of authority claimed - Well well well, Mormonism claims the angel Moroni was the one to reveal those missing stone tablets to Joseph Smith, but REVEREND MOON was visited by BIGGER AUTHORITY APPARENTLY::::the big J.C.himself, at age 15 on Easter Sunday no less! JESUS charged SUN MYUNG MOON tooooooo
finish the work Jesus had started! Sun spoke with Jesus and John the Baptist in the Spirit World!
WT CLAIMS: Came out of the Whore Christendom and was CHOSEN BY JESUS IN 1918/1919 as Jehovah's "MOUTHPIECE" "faithful and wise servant" to give the sheep "food at the proper time"
And C.T. Russell believed himself to be himself alone the "faithful and wise servant" :smile:
Qcmbr said for Mormonism: Heavenly Vision.
hmmm, like Reverend Moon then more than Charles.

* Understanding of purpose of life - The Moonies, there is a chance for spiritual salvation, since Jesus did not complete his mission on earth, there is as of yet no physical salvation in place
Once man has achieved earthly perfection, he "becomes one body with God, possesses deity, and cannot commit sins. This man is not in need of redemption or of a savior, nor does he need the life or prayer and faith required by fallen men, because he is without original sin. Such a man, being himself without original sin, comes to multiply children of goodness without sin; in consequence, his children are not in need of a savior for the redemption of their sins" (pp. 140-141).'The Purpose of Jesus' Coming as the Messiah'
The WATCHTOWER:
to spend forever in what seems to be a A___B time frame still in a perfected body petting wild animals, eating vegetables,,,,and attending the kingdom hall yet. Where is God? He is in Heaven with the 144K!
Qcmbr said of Mormonism: Become like God
alrighty then.

*JESUS
THE MOONIES:
As with the Watchtower, and for that matter the Mormon church, there is the public spin on whom Jesus is taught to have been and done, and then there is the reality once you become a member.
Reverend Moon actually teaches Jesus to be a failure. He didn't accomplish his true mission, he didn't get married. And since you can't get to "Heaven" if you haven't been married, and Jesus didn't, so he went to "paradise" a "lower form" of heaven instead. Actually, Reverend Moon kindly had Jesus retro married to a woman from the unification church, so it seems he's been cleared for landing beyond the pearly gates.
Moon actually believes that he is the Messiah truth be told, and he is finishing Jesus' work, he is married and Jesus was not.
Moons son who died in a car accident before he was married is said by Moon to be a Lord in the spirit world, and Jesus himself even bows down to him.
WATCHTOWER:
Jesus is Michael the Archangel in pre-existent form. He is the "first creation" of Jehovah. Jesus created all [other] things :wink:
MORMONISM:
Jesus is a creation, the product of god and his goddess wife after they became so from being people...from another world.
Jesus is the spirit brother of Satan, and of humans.
God--the Father
has a BODY of FLESH AND BONES and together daddy and mommy god procreate baby gods who inhabit humans here on earth.
One of three gods of their separate Tritheist Godhead.




MOONIES = SHUN
WATCHTOWER=SHUN
MORMONISM= NOT UNIFORMLY BUT YES, SHUN. Particularly the Fundamental branches

*Path to God - MOONIES
First of all get married, be a Moonie. Be principled, recognise the "true parents."
WATCHTOWER
Follow all Watchtower rules, work out your salvation with "good works" which translates to preaching and more preaching. Must be a member of Jehovahs Spirit directed organization. Must believe their doctrine to a T and not question it.
MORMONISM:
Qcmbr said: Faith in Jesus
Hmm, exactly what a Witness would claim actually.
But, as with the Watchtowers own literature proving that to be misleading, so does the literature of Mormonism and believers of it prove your claim to be misleading
 "Good works are necessary for salvation", Articles of Faith, p. 92.)
"There is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet of God", (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, p. 188.)
 "The first effect [of the atonement] is to secure to all mankind alike, exemption from the penalty of the fall, thus providing a plan of General Salvation. The second effect is to open a way for Individual Salvation whereby mankind may secure remission of personal sins" (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 78-79.)

* Scripture - MOONIES
Divine Principle, Sun's speeches. Not the Bible so much
WATCHTOWER
Watchtower and Awake and the neverending books they produce. The Bible as interperted by the FDS.
MORMONISM
Since the Bible is corrupted, and besides the revelation wasn't finished, The Book of Mormon, The Pearl of Great Price, Doctrines and Covenants, the Bible...where it doesn't conflict with the other books.

* Revelation -
I don't know why Qcmbr thinks the WT teaches "revelation" has "stopped" doesn't he know the WT is getting progressive revelation, new light, and are spiritually guided by the holy spirit itself?
MOONIES:
Revelations galore. Mostly because Jesus couldn't git er done.
MORMONISM:
Prophets, revelations. Yeah.




As you can probably see, the doctrines of the MOONIES and the doctrines of the WATCHTOWER are incredibly different.
But they are so similar it's not even funny.
It is the SOCIOLOGICAL ASPECTS of these GROUPS THAT MAKE THEM SO.
BEHAVIOUR, THOUGHT, INFORMATION, AND EMOTIONAL CONTROL.
The AUTHORITY STRUCTURE,,,there is a group, a person or an elect WHO INTERPRET OR DISPENSE THE "TRUTH" as typically they say has been "lost" is being revealed now at Gods timing.
SALVATION IS ALWAYS TIED IN WITH BELONGING TO AND BELIEVING THE TEACHINGS AND INTERPRETATION OF THIS GROUP OR PERSON.
DOING WHAT THEY SAY
There is always a discrepancy between what they reveal privately and what they teach/believe/practice privately
You're always advised in these groups to not read material that is not faith "building" they have a can on what you should and should not read.
You are told not to associate with former members of the group. They are wicked, evil out to get the faith, disgruntled, have an axe to grind, not interested in the truth, doing the work and will of satan, spreading lies, filth, propoganda.
Don't question the leader, associate with members of your faith exclusively, don't read conflicting views, obey.
To illustrate, people were only able to speak to Steve Hassan "negatively" about his Moonie status when he completely physically incapacitated
by the way, like Qcmbr said about "anti" sites, the following IS an account from an "ex" moonie site, but I am SUUUUURE you're getting lies, false information, messed up opinions from raging foaming moonie apostates who hate truth and light. So I can direct you to the Official Unification Church site so you get the true (sanitized) beliefs and history of it all :smile:
www.unification.org :smile: :smile: :smile:
now from the dreaded apostate website
http://www.geocities.com/craigmaxim/u-8a.html
"Steve really is a hero figure, a superman with glasses. It was a near fatal van-accident as a moonie that ultimately led to his freedom from the cult. His parents who were caring for him with casts and broken bones, found someone to help councel him out of the cult. Steve would have none of it, and reports that if he could have walked, he would have jumped out of the second story window to prevent any possibility of disloyalty to his "True Father", Sun Myung Moon (Moon tells his followers that he is their father). After several days of lectures from his councelors about how the Unification Church employed Mind Control techniques to get him to make decisions he ordinarily would not have if left to his own free will, and other information he had not previously known about Sun Myung Moon, still Steve was unwilling to accept what he was hearing. Finally one night, in an emotional encounter with his parents, he screamed out "Look, I don't care if Sun Myung Moon is HITLER! I've chosen to follow him!!". Hearing those stark words from his own lips, startled him, and gave him something to reflect on over the next days. Slowly, as many of us have, he came to the realization that Moon was a fraud. That his church practiced deception to recruit people into it's ranks and that he himself had been deceived and nearly robbed of his entire life!"

that's all for now.
 
Abaddon
Abaddon 9 years ago

Qcmbr
Source of authority claimed - (Heavenly vision V. One man with another bible interpretation)
JW's have claimed inspiration, so no difference there.
Understanding of purpose of life - (Become like God V. Live on perfected earth forever)
That's minutae; the difference between one fairy story and another. For example;
◦Disinherited girl kept as skivvy, bad step mother and sisters, a good fairy, magic, Prince, happily ever after
◦Girl fleeing death hiding in woods, good dwarves, bad Queen, magic, Price, happily ever after
The above pair are functionaly identical; threat, escape, isolation from natural place in order of things, dispair, a mystic messenger, magic, a hero and happy resolution.
Shunning - (LDs actively reach out to those who leave V. Matter of faith not to visit.)
WRONG and you know it. I am sure that both JW and Mormon Elders feel they reach out to disfellowshipped ones as they 'should'. And both are only really interesed in those disfellowshipped who accept their fault and return meekly. Are all the x-Mormons liars?
Relationship To Other Faiths - (LDS have no preaching work against other faiths V. JWs regularly producing media detracting from others faith.)
Oh come now; don't try to hide the true feelings of LDS about other religions. According to the official story of the LDS Church, in 1820 Smith was visited by God the Father and God the Son, after praying about which church he should join. He was told by Jesus, he should join none of them for they were "all wrong" and all the Christian church's doctrines "were an abomination" (Joseph Smith - History 19, Pearl of Great Price). Mormons consider other faiths to be as wrong as JW's consider other faiths to be wrong; all it is is thatMornons are better at PR; so no functional difference in beliefs there
Path to God - (Faith in Jesus V. Faith in WT)
How can the path to god be faith in Jesus in an organisation where a human heirachy can rule someone is no longer on path to god? Both organisations have faith in BOOKS and an oligarchal power struture; individuals in both faith my THINK it's all about Jee-SUS!, but that's just conditioning.
Afterlife - (All get to continue progressing V. All dead until resurrection)
Minutae; both offer a fantsy "kiss-it-better" solution to human mortality; the doctrines are functionaly identical in what they represent to believers.
Secular Education - (Encouraged V. Discouraged)
They encourage it and then ignore it; look at this rubbish;
http://www.zaksite.co.uk/whyprophets/prophets/new/deluge.htm
The final closing of the bridge between Asia and America would come at the end of the process of separating the landmasses (which might have taken 100 years or 100 million years - it is all the same to God)
... I can also cite works by a 9/11 Conspiracy nut and Professor of Bring'em Young University who also believes in the FanstasyFlood.
How can an organsiation whose beliefs run contrary to scientific fact, but whose ideology is so totalitarian that this is ignored even by educated followers be said to 'encourage it'? The LDS no more encourage education than someone who teaches somone to read and then blinds them encourages reading.
Family - (Eternal Unit V. Divided - esp. if one anointed)
Show me the fuctional difference of this belief please. I don't think you can.
Scripture - (Inspired but corrupted V Inspired and Deified)
WRONG and you know it, the Morons just base their faith to a large part on a 19th Century fabrication that claims inspiration.
Revelation - (Ongoing V Stopped)
I suggest you turn the new light on so you can see better; yup, the Mormons revise their faith and so do the JW's; the justifications they give may be different but it is functionally identical.
Spirit - (Person V Power)
And what functional difference is there in this belief? About the same as the two sub-species of zebra I mentioned having slightly different stripes I think.
Kingdom - (All Areas Of life V Preaching Only)
If I gave more of a damn I'd cite WT articles saying how all a Dubbie's life should bear Witness. As we all know there are such artciles I'll refrain from citation and assume we can agree both encourage a 'whole-of-life' approach to the practise of their faith.
Responsibility - (Get Own Witness V. Accept WT Witness)
Pfff! Come off it. Neither religion cultivates personal responsibility. You might think they do, but hell, yes? and? so? what?
Celebrations - (Accepted V Banned)
LOL. JW's have celebrations too, just not Christmas or birthdays. So, no difference.
Preaching - (2 years mission + lifetime example V Lifetime knocking)
Minutae; 2 years FULL TIME equals 17 years at 10 hours a month; they both perform the same functionality, i.e. prostylsing.
There are plenty of similarities
Yes, I know. And as doctrine is unprovable, you cannot demonstrate any functional difference between the two religions. Both are a niche belief who believe in modern-day inspiration, who prostlyse, who encourage donations to support the religion, who ignore modern science, who revise beliefs at whim on pretexts, and who shun those who speak out of line or defy beliefs.
There are more similarities between Dubbism and Mormonism than you care to admit.
SusanHere
And, c'mon people! Isn't his "differences" list pretty clear in showing that there are actually many key differences in major doctrinal points between LDS and JW?
To someone with knowledge they can differentiate the two. But to external observers they are identical in the nature if not the form of their beliefs and the functional effects (shunning knowledge that conflicts with doctrine, shunning people, etc.) are pretty much identical. I am sure the two sub-speices of zebra are very clear on their differences. To most people they're zebras.
But do you seriously think cultists will admit to being cultists? Moonie, Mormon or Dubbie, they'll all deny it. Of course you and Qcmbr will!
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 9 years ago

Abaddon - though you think yourself clever in your line by line disagreement and attack you aren't. You are just an argumentative person. If I had said that the LDS believe White but the JWs believe Black ALL you would have said in response is: They are both colours Therefore they are not different. I'm sorry but I find you cannot debate well! I have a two year old who uses a similar logic structure to you and it revolves around choosing the opposite position purely for the sake of it. Abaddon - you could write polemic for the WT mags - your good at it. You seem unable to actually agree with ANYTHING. I bet if I cut and pasted a comment from one of your posts ages ago I'd find a rebuttal here.
 
Mary
Mary 9 years ago

Qcmbr I find it amazing that a guest on this site can be made to feel so unwelcome. I thought experience would breed acceptance not intolerance. In my mind I find a perspective on life and my faith from posters here that I cannot get within my own community nor from ex-LDS boards.
I find this statement rather confusing, Q. If you're a Mormon, why would think you would find a "perspective on life" and your faith on a board made up of ex-Witnesses, that you "cannot get within [your] own community"?
 
kid-A
kid-A 9 years ago

"Abaddon - though you think yourself clever in your line by line disagreement and attack you aren't. You are just an argumentative person."
What a pitiful response Q, but not at all unexpected. This is the best retort you can come up with Abaddon's meticulous and spot-on dissection of your "comparisons"? All you can offer in return are ad hominen attacks, the weapon of choice when the loser of a debate goes into maximum overdrive cognitive dissonance. I'm impressed your fellow mormon, Susan was able to jump in for you though. Instead of infantile whining (inspiration from your avatar?) , why not actually address each of Abaddon's points and attempt to offer a logical rebuttal?
On a brighter note, I am now convinced that you really are NOT on a recruitment drive, given the hopelessly weak apologetics and hand waving you must resort to when describing your "religion"....
Sister Susan: Give us a break. Its irrelevant whether LDS, JWs, Scientologists, Moonies, etc etc "differ" at a COSMETIC level....the underlying effects are IDENTICAL: rigid thought control, psychological conformity and acceptance of irrational beliefs based upon the whims of HUMAN "prophets" claiming to speak for "god". To state again the obvious: same sh*t, different pile.
 
james_woods
james_woods 9 years ago

I think this whole thread speaks volumes about the similarity of LDS and JW. Let's recap -

Theocratic Strategy? - look how hard it was for Qcmbr to come clean with everybody here (and check out the number of posts he has on this board).
Control Freaking? (in both religions) - lets just all go have a cup of coffee.
Made up your own Bible? - old Green has got nothing on Book of Mormon.
Ancient Guru? - at least old Russell did not claim the Angel Macaroni came down from heaven and revealed it to him through magic crystqals.
God is a Woman? (I guess so long as she was not your 13 year old niece).
I still say this: Mormon-ism is just as fair a game in season as the miserable Watchtower Society. And not too far different as far as grabbing innocent people and making them do as the org pleases.

I guess thats a good thing about being an independent from Texas - you will not see me prosleytizing some phony faith on this board and then crybabying that I did not feel welcome here.
James - sick and tired of this whole thread.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 9 years ago

James - stop reading its easy. Kid-A I'm not a pedant like Abaddon nor do I have hours to devote to fools. Mary - 'my' community wouldn't be having this discussion!
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 9 years ago

KID-A I find the irony in your position RE ad hominen attacks interesting - I think your left hand is casting stones while the other wags a finger.
 
james_woods
james_woods 9 years ago

Q - you posted:
"nor do I have hours to devote to fools"
I beg to differ. Apparantly you do. (or maybe that comment quoted was just more English humor by way of Nevada).
Think about it.
James
 
Mary
Mary 9 years ago

Qcmbr, I've read a bit of your posting history just to see where it is you're coming from. From what I can see, you're a Mormon but I'm not sure if you used to be a Witness or if you just happened to stumble on this board while surfing the Net.
No one likes to think they belong to a cult. Witnesses will go to the ends of the earth to try and "prove" that they are not a cult, even when the facts are staring them straight in the face. Mormons do the exact same thing, as you've demonstrated in your posts. You say that there are things in the religion that you might not agree with, but that you still love the faith, the people in it, etc. My Dub sister is the same way. She doesn't believe that Jesus returned invisibly in 1914, or that Armageddon is anywhere in sight, and she will not shun any family members who leave the Borg, but she still stays in and doesn't believe it's a cult. Why? Because she enjoys the social aspect of the religion and is very popular in the congregation. Plus, she feels this religion is her only hope of ever seeing our siblings (who all died way before their time) again. To her, the pros outweigh the cons and she stays.
I have a feeling this might be the case with you. Although you've said you've come to realize that some things about the Mormon church aren't true, you still love the faith and your congregation and will not acknowledge that the Mormon church IS a controlling cult. If that's what makes you happy, then I wish you all the best. But to try and convince ex-Witnesses (who have already been burnt badly once), that your religion is somehow different and not the same as what we experienced------well, don't be suprised if you get less than enthusiastic responses. Many of us are bitter about what we've already endured and get easily aggitated when someone tries to convince us that a cult is not a cult. And if you think the responses here are negative, I wouldn't suggest you post your ideas on other ex-Witness sites unless you've got a cross and some garlic handy.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 9 years ago

Mary - I lurked for a while just reading the various posts as I have a love-hate relationship with the JW faith. I've never been a JW nor ever will be - there isn't anything they offer for me. I think teh LDS church has plenty of stuff wrong but that is not the mark of the true church for me.. James - touche.
 
Abaddon
Abaddon 9 years ago

Qcmbr
though you think yourself clever in your line by line disagreement and attack you aren't. You are just an argumentative person.
Ah; classic cult reaction.
If there was untruth in my reply then he could show this quite easily. As what I say is true, all he can do is attack me personally.
And before you go off on one, yes. I do make barbed comments about you; but I can normally substansiate them (apart from you having been a JW at a certain point where I seem to be mistaken... but the fact you, a cultist, stalk a discussion board for another cult is profoundly weird enough to be getting on with I think).
Your personal attacks are besides the point; you accuse me of being argumentative; if someone posts rubbish is it argumentative to disagree with the rubbish? Yes, but it doesn't matter as there is NOTHING wrong with arguing against rubbish. Except to the person responsible for the rubbish, which explains the whining noise coming from you.
If I had said that the LDS believe White but the JWs believe Black ALL you would have said in response is: They are both coloursTherefore they are not different.
And when ad hom pales one can always launch a straw man attack.  Not only can you not base your reply on the points I made (as you cannot do so without looking foolish), you have to make stuff up about what I might say about other things to make it look like you're being reasonable (instead of the cultic conversational coward you prove yourself to be).
I'm sorry but I find you cannot debate well!
And this comes from a cult victim who's already used two logical fallacies in his reply.  What you find is obviously influenced by your critical thinking ability, which is +/- 0 as evidenced from being a member of a church based on a farmer with a fantastic imagination. Consider my face not bothered as regards your opinion of my debating ability.
I have a two year old who uses a similar logic structure to you and it revolves around choosing the opposite position purely for the sake of it.
And here we see a 'nice' combination; another ad hom combined with a red herring. That's FOUR logical fallacies in a fairly short reply... maybe you do have a talent afterall..
This isn't about my methods of argumr5ntation Qcmbr.
This is about the fact your argument (about the amount of difference between JW's and Mormons) is utter codswhallop.
Whilst they might believe seemingly different things they are no further apart than two sub-species that can still interbreed as they both are identifiable as cults. It's the duck paradigm all over again; if it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck and moves like a duck, it is a duck. Even if it thinks it is a golden eagle and that the other duck is a mouse, both it and the other duck are still ducks.
Of course, due to your indoctrination you have no respect of education or science if it conflicts with your 19th Century farmer's fantasies and thus have to resort to pathetic whining and evasion rather than proving me wrong. You are a coward. Defend your silly beliefs or stop trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
Abaddon - you could write polemic for the WT mags - your good at it.
AH, didums. still with the ad homs I see. Sore point for you?
You seem unable to actually agree with ANYTHING.
Nah; there's plenty of people on this board who also think you are a nice but rather tragic cult victim. That's not an ad populi, that's a fact.
What you mean is I don't agree with (virtually anything) YOU believe in in the sphere of religion or spirituality or those areas of life where your opinions are religiously predicated rather than being based on fact or reality.
This is because (although admitedly a bit of an arrogant bastard) I actually base my opinions on things that have evidence or facts, and you base your beliefs on religious nonsense
I bet if I cut and pasted a comment from one of your posts ages ago I'd find a rebuttal here.
Again, a straw man, too busy making up what might happen under x circumstance to bother defending the pathetic pile of rubbish I believe you would wish to be regarded as 'your point'. Why not actually defend your beliefs?
Show us how different your 'truth' is from the cult known as JW's. Thus far you've failed to. And (the funny bit) is that YOU started this thread... what were you thinking?
Or will you further distinguish yourself by running away from a discussion you started but cannot possibly end without appearing silly?

PS

Too late....
 

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with interest i find that once again the lds faith is cast as the twin tower of mordor to the watchtower orthanc.
we are not the same my precious.
read these quotes below to see just how different we really are.



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Couple of JW Sisters came to my door - mini rumble
by Qcmbr 10 years ago 29 Replies latest 10 years ago   watchtower bible
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Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

First of all want to thank you all for informing me of the good the bad and smurfly about JWs - I was so stoked when these two sister's knocked on my door. I apologise now - I was a smug git - in fairness they conducted themselves impeccably in the face of me.
This is how it went (paraphrased to highlight 'clever' bits I said and downplay swathes of conversation when I said silly things. Also since this is a rough gist it misses the kind things we all said that kept the coversation friendly - i.e. this will read pretty clipped and vicious but it wasn't we spent most time laughing at shared areas of religious life - this just highlights key bits where I tried to expose their weaknesses without focusing on my own.)
They started with the Awake and started to talk about how awful it was that terrorism was with us and how it is a sign of the end.
I agreed that terrorism was bad and then noted that terrorism has always been with mankind and always will be.
They said did I believe in Armageddon and that the end was coming.
I said yes but that no-one would know when it was and that it was strange that the JWs had suggested 1975, 1914 and 1875 amongst other dates (though I conceded that the JWs couldn't be blamed for 1875 or 1914 as Jehovah hadn't chosen them until 1918.)
They agreed that many over zealous people had predicted dates but that they didn't do that any more.
Fair point.
I asked whether they believed that the JWs were inspired.
No - Yes - we are led by the Spirit of Jehovah.
Do you believe in visions and prophecy.
No.
What do you mean by inspiration then? How does it manifest itself?
You are led by Jehovah.
How? A voice?
No a feeling (now I must admit that floored me somewhat - I did not expect that response!!!) and through the scriptures.
Are other christians who feel the Spirit and use the scriptures as a guide inspired?
No.
How do you know? (I then spoke about my own missionary experiences of finding people who felt what I felt, read what I read but believed differently to me.)
We just do.
Why do you believe in no visions?
Queue scripture - charity remaineth.
Do you do lots of charity then?
Yes.
You have soup kitchens?
No we minister door to door and we help out in disasters.
So charity to you is preaching?
Yes.
How do you feel about the masonic connections of Russell?
We don't mind.
Do you care that the watchtower is a masonic symbol?
No.
I thought you didn't want anything ungodly - for example you don't have christmas trees do you?
We don't have any pagan symbols.
Well you do..your wedding ring is arguably pagan in origin.
Silence.
Why do you believe you are right and the thousands of other christian churches with their scholars and interpretations are wrong?
We've tried the teachings and proved them.
But you may have peaked too soon, the born agains may have a much better answer - did you try them?
No.
So what is it that makes you believe you stand out from the crowd?
We don't go to war or take part in governments.
Like the Amish?
No - they have removed themselves from society - we stay to preach.
Like the Catholics, BAs and Mormons?
The catholics don't preach?
Well they do and their missionary work outstripped everyone elses - at least historically - that's why the west is largely Christian.
But they don't do it now.
Yes they do, they have missions all over the place. Anyway - LDS also preach. What else makes you different?
We have the correct interpretation of the bible.
Based on what? You can't get the dates right, you disagree on whether you must abstain from blood or whether you can have fractions.. your interpretations of scripture aren't any better than other churches.
We at least read our scriptures.
I can think of loads of Christians who do the same.
You're at my door asking me to come to church.
No we aren't we are here just to deliver the message.
So you don't want me to become a JW?
No - Jehovah does.
So you would be unhappy if I turned up?
No of course not.
Would you agree that the hardest thing for most people to do is to give up their cherished beliefs - especially when faced with absolute proof they are wrong?
No - I had to do that to join the JWs.
So if I came to you with irrefutable proof that the JWs were wrong would you leave?
No. Would you leave the LDS church. (Good riposte!!)
Damn straight I would. I'm not wasting my time following things that aren't true. So how did you feel in the mid 90's when the generation change came along? Did it rock your faith.
Only one of the sisters remembered it. No - it was new guidance and Jehovah's organisation was getting clearer instruction all the time.
But you don't believe in revelation. This looks like just changing doctrines to suit to me.
We said a lot more (one and a half hours - which I said should bump their hours that week.) and we agreed to a rematch with the Elders and the reasoning from the scriptures book. They haven't called back one week later :frowning: I don't think they will.
To be fair I gave them a good chunk of hard questions and they didn't wilt.
 
karen96
karen96 10 years ago

You're at my door asking me to come to church.
No we aren't we are here just to deliver the message.
So you don't want me to become a JW?
No - Jehovah does.
So you would be unhappy if I turned up?
No of course not.
This made me laugh! How many times are dubs being judged by how many they "brought into the truf"?
And no, we are just here with a message that we would gladly cram down your throat on a weekly basis until you either vomit us out of your home, or we take over your life and independent thinking!
karen
 
Dune
Dune 10 years ago

I'm surprised they stayed for that long.
most of the time, they'd run off your porch and call an elder, lol.
Personally, when i went/go door to door i try to get a yes or no answer from the householder, anything else and i try to leave, lol.
 
LDH
LDH 10 years ago

Great job!
These boys can talk themselves out of ANYTHING!
 
GetBusyLiving
GetBusyLiving 10 years ago

Nice job Qcmbr!
GBL
 
daystar
daystar 10 years ago

Yes, excellent job!
 
Nathan Natas
Nathan Natas 10 years ago

A broken record won't quit either; it will skip andskip and skip and play the same thing over and over and over, that doesn't mean it is "intelligent." There is no evidence of any intelligence in what the two Dubs had to tell you either.
I'll bet they congratulated themselves for their sterling defense of the faith in the face of opposition. Polly wanna cracker?
 
renando_stimpy
renando_stimpy 10 years ago

I credit Jehovah's Witnesses for my new love of the Bible,
I was so sick of being walked all up and down in circular arguments it sent me crazy, I just had to have some comebacks..
Since then I have had a bit of practice and the last visit I had a great comeback, one of them said "yes" and the other said "no"
Victory Is Mine !!!
Well done for sticking up for yourself.. It a shame more people don't, or rather don't know how..
 
MinisterAmos
MinisterAmos 10 years ago

Whenever I ran into someone like you I just told them "I have to do this or they will disfellowship me, my wife will leave me and my children will never speak with me again".
I did that at least once with Elder/Pioneer D. right next to me but he didn't understand as he was still learning the language. Kept the same stupid grin on his face even after I explained to the homeowner that he (the Elder) was my retarded older brother.
 
Shawn10538
Shawn10538 10 years ago

No. Would you leave the LDS church. (Good riposte!!) So, we have a Mormon ex-JW here? That is really funny if true. Good luck with that, I'll just get back to my Santa Claus Cult now where the real truth lies. Man, I'm glad I'm not a Witness anymore! Oh, say, and about Santa's golden plates you wanted to see? (Similar to Smith's plates, but these ones are the TRUE plates of gold written, not in Egyptian, but in ancient Icelandic!) You know, Friday is not good for me either. I have some hours to put in at the north pole. Can we reschedule for the 47,000th time in a row? You just keep catching me at bad times. In any case, you can only come to see the curtain behind which the gold plates sit. God only allows me to actually see the plates themselves. You just have to have faith, don't you know that? Anyway, I'm glad that the several hundred thousand actual sightings of Santa and his reindeer from all over the globe each year actually prove conclusively that Santa is real. Do Mormons even have that much evidence? Someone here, and I'm only assuming at this point, may need to catch up on some missed South Park episodes... call me crazy. No, really, call me crazy for believing in Santa and that the LDS is not just as ridiculous as all that and more... Shawn
 
Wasanelder Once
Wasanelder Once 10 years ago

I fear you were simply the object of thier pioneer hour buildup. I'm sure they were behind a bit before you locked horns with them. Now they are all caught up.
W.Once
 
Shawn10538
Shawn10538 10 years ago

Just in case I don't get back to this post for a while, and even though I haven't any actual verification that Qcmbr is actually a member of LDS (every bit as much a cult as JWs in my humble opinion), I do commend her for using critical thinking directed at other people, but, I challenge her to go stand in the mirror and be just as harsh and scrutinizing on her own faith as she is on JWs.
 Critical thinking skills are practically useless if you can't apply them three dimensionally in every direction. If you spare yourself, or even God himself, from the heat of harsh scientific and journalistic inquiry, your skills are confined to advancing others out of the darkness, but you are not progressing and evolving yourself.
 From my minimal exposure to LDS, attending the meetings a few times, reading a few books for and against and dating two members (not at the same time) I have seen the exact thought stopping, self deception and self manipulation processes being used in both churches. In some areas, I find LDS to be so absolutely ridiculous that I roll over laughing that grown people can actually believe that stuff.
 ANNOUNCEMENT: To any LDS member, I have a gold plate, love potion, cure-all tonic, a bridge and property in Florida to sell you. It costs 2,000,000 dollars for one peep at the gold plate. You believe I have it don't you? DON'T YOU? Well, if there is any consistency to the LDS process of how they come to believe what they believe, I just gained 10 million followers world wide, because the whole thing is based on believing something JUST BECAUSE SOME WEIRDO POTION SELLING SHINANIGAN SAID SO! I mean, there is literally ZERO evidence in the whole universe that backs up the Smith story. ZZZZEEERRRROOOO.!!!!!!!!!
 So, I'll be expecting all Mormons to show up at my door because they are literally THAT GULLIBLE! I could go on for hours on this thing. Suffice it to say that for a Mormon to look down on a JW, is the pot calling the kettle black. OOps did I say black? Coincidentally, Mormons shared their views on black people with JWs, that blacks were going to turn white some day, if I'm not mistaken, correct me if I am, but it took Mormons about 40 years longer to suddenly have a revelation that blacks could become members. Even the civil rights movement desegregated the South 15 years before Mormons accepted blacks. So, if you can be a Mormon, you have no business poking fun at JWs, Scientologists, flying saucer cults, David Koresh, Heaven's Gate and the one true religion - The Sanata Claus Cult.
Laughing OUT LOUD AT ALL MORMONS!!!
Slapping my knee uproariously at the sheer stupidity of their magic potion religion.
Wishing I had the charisma J. Smith had to convince a bunch of country hicks in New York in the 1800s (now those people had the process of scientific inquiry down! Man they were a tough sell I bet!) that he could stick his head in a bag and use magic spectacles to read an ancient Egyptian script, and when caught at his deception (being unable to repeat the revelation to his friend who was writing as he spoke) he came up with a story that God was angry and punoished them by not revealing the first reading a second time. And now we'll never know what those first readings said. (Weep.)
If you can believe that, you can believe ANYTHING!!!! Read the book of Mormon for yourself and see how absolutely comical it is. The only other books that come close to its stupidity are the Bible and the Koran. But definitely, with third or fourth grade critical thinking ability one should be able to totally dismantle the mormon faith.
Sad that 10 million adults actually buy into that mess.
Shawn
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

Fair points Shawn but remember for me (a true blue LDS - inculcated from birth) this wasn't poking fun at the JWs it was actually a deadly serious conversation upon which eternal destinies hang. I had to keep the conversation on an even keel between hard and informed questions and bridgebuilding on common experiences because they would have cut and run if I'd just gone all out. I also wasn't trying to trip them up or fool them but to force a critical analysis and thought process because I totally agree that the vast majority of believers and non-believers don't raise their thinking beyond their accepted worldview during discussions and I include myself in that generalisation. I love it when someone, respectfully, asks the deep , uncomfortable, thought provoking challenges that force me to look way beyond zombie like acceptance.
In any other life I would agree that religion and the LDS faith is just speculative storytelling, pretending to answers from a reservoir of common wisdom wrapped up in magic fairytales but I find myself unable to deny that I believe in Jesus Christ and also in the existence of a restored church and in the fulfillment of prophecy.
1/ I've seen freaky (some would call supernatural things) that I wouldn't want to see again.
2/ I've had stunning answers to prayer.
3/ I've see people healed.
4/ I have read / analysed / pulled apart / confronted the awful possibility of error and I am unable to find a sustainable gap in the core philosophy and doctrines of christianity and the brand of it that is LDS. Feel free to 'help' me find a gap but don't just paste website addresses - I want real personal arguments that prove the errancy of these things (i.e. picking on something and enlarging it out of context as the sole reason for something being wrong doesn't do much more than start a discussion to me - I want to understand beyond personal incredulity why such and such cannot be correct)
5/ I find modern day events absolutely in line with prophecy (in particular the return of Israel and the creation of a state that didn't exist for roughly 2000 years.)
6/ I have read new scripture and listened to living prophets and I find they speak as I would expect, they act as I expect them to act and they say what I would expect them to say - they are the real deal as far as I can see (unlike many other religious leaders that leave me scratching my head trying to understand what they are really saying as opposed to what they seem to be saying.)
I'm not trying to prove the LDS faith to anyone here - I'm just trying to let you know how difficult it is for me to agree that the LDS faith is actually nutty and laughable, I find it absolutely right on all areas that affect my life and even were I to leave the church I can't think of any other lifestyle I'd actually want - I'm not hankering after anything more - at the risk of tempting a thunder strike I'm happy. As a final point I am still going through a crisis of faith and its triggers I've documented but its roots are based in the lack of more of the above proofs(i.e why does LDS faith not take a central role in politics, why do the leaders try and make friends with other religions and so move away from the seriousness of the debate, what will happen to raise the church into real prominence and beyond a side cult of 12 million.) My crisis is pretty cool though as it means I'm moving, my comfort zone is all jiggly and I'm interested to see where I end up - thus far though I'm(obviously) still a fired up Morm.
 
LDH
LDH 10 years ago

I'm just trying to let you know how difficult it is for me to agree that the LDS faith is actually nutty and laughable,
Having grown up in Upstate NY, near Palmyra and the Hill Cumorah pageant, well never mind, I won't be rude and say it...but you know what I'm thinking!
 
Finally-Free
Finally-Free 10 years ago

A couple of them just came to my door a few minutes ago - first time in the 3 years I've been here. I'm surprised they don't have me down as a do-not-call.
I don't have the patience to get into a discussion with them. First I asked them if they were Jehovah's Witnesses. When they said 'yes' I simply said, "I don't want to be involved with a cult that protects pedophiles" and shut the door.
W
 
mavie
mavie 10 years ago

Whenever I ran into someone like you I just told them "I have to do this or they will disfellowship me, my wife will leave me and my children will never speak with me again".
LOL!
I did that at least once with Elder/Pioneer D. right next to me but he didn't understand as he was still learning the language. Kept the same stupid grin on his face even after I explained to the homeowner that he (the Elder) was my retarded older brother.
ROFL!
Some people just don't want to wake up/can't wake up or think for themselves. I suspect there are many who would not leave the JW's if presented with a 'smoking gun'.
 
willyloman
willyloman 10 years ago

I'm surprised they stayed for that long.
You were probably the most interesting "call" they'd had in months!
 
RachelHall
RachelHall 10 years ago

Good questions....I would have ask...Do you need to go to the meetings to be saved by God's son Jesus Christ? Regardless of their answer....God's word doesn't say we need to worship in any particular place or go to any meeting to build one another up.
 
Shawn10538
Shawn10538 10 years ago

What about all the false prophcies of the Mormons, like "All Native Americans will be converted one day." I suppose LDS did their part in converting them by slaughtering so many of them, maybe they converted in the after life? But, from what I see, the diverse Native Americans are having a renaissance of their tribal religions which are non-Christian. Never met a single LDS Native American, though I'm sure there are some. Also, why are Mormons so pumped up patriotic and willing to kill fellow Mormons in other countries should war break out. This well established fact kind of puts the Mormon allegiance in the political realm, not the spiritual realm...
Have you gone to the mirror yet?

No, I'm not joling around or trying to be funny. None of this stuff is really funny (though I may be laughing) when it comes to lying and deceiving millions of people...
Sincerely,
Shawn
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

What about all the false prophcies of the Mormons, like "All Native Americans will be converted one day."
Hmm - I'll go look this one up! Honestly hadn't actually seen this.
I suppose LDS did their part in converting them by slaughtering so many of them, maybe they converted in the after life?
?????? Which history book are you reading?
But, from what I see, the diverse Native Americans are having a renaissance of their tribal religions which are non-Christian. Never met a single LDS Native American,
My adopted cousins in Alberta are...
Also, why are Mormons so pumped up patriotic and willing to kill fellow Mormons in other countries should war break out.
At the risk of being very,very rude - you are referring to the US Mormons??. Worldwide most Mormons, as are most people, are not 'pumped' about war anywhere (well I'll make an exception for some extremists who are going nuts in the Middle East). If war does break out though you may well find Mormons, Humanists, Catholics, Born Agains, Pagans and those who don't profess any god on both sides of any conflict. Pacifism is very noble but is utterly powerless and ugly once conflict starts - there is no record of God ever sparing/helping a pacifist people. I'll honour my great grandfather who died for this country so I could be free before I pay respects to those who stayed at home through choice.
 This well established fact kind of puts the Mormon allegiance in the political realm, not the spiritual realm...
Is this bad? One thing that the LDS faith pushes very strongly is that this life is real, it is ours and what we do with it is up to us. If we want to pollute our world, go to war, enact laws and so forth that is our right and standing on the sideline like the pharisees tutting and pretending that society is nothing to do with us is just a false reading of the bible by those who don't want to make efforts for and on behalf of their neighbours. Jesus was as political as you get. In the meantime the LDS (along with the rest of people who care enough to share their time and views) will encourage democracy (voting), school boards, military service, encourage political engagement (a 'good' man/woman in power can do great things while allowing a 'bad' person into power does things like the gas chambers at Auschwitz) and generally to spread a positive influence throughout the neighbourhood by taking part in all things secular, political and religious.
 

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Couple of JW Sisters came to my door - mini rumble
by Qcmbr 10 years ago 29 Replies latest 10 years ago   watchtower bible
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jaada
jaada 10 years ago

ok i have to add my 2 cents in about mormons, yes they did want to convert all Native Americans, i know i am native american and my ex was mormon. my new husband has his brothers and sisters taken from his family by mormons they did this often on the indian reservations, to teach them the mormon ways, they take them for summers into their homes and teach them. no one knew how bad this was until they all came to the reservations teaching us that our ways are pagan and we are lower forms of humans. they tried to convert us all the time. not just mormons thats true catholics as well . The Native ways have been around much longer than the mormons catholics or jehovahs witnesses, we have always believed in a creator. and this was out of the mouth of my ex husbands grandfather that the black man is the mark that cain bore after killing his brother.
I started listening to the jehovahs witness's a few years ago everything they said was so nice and they were not racist. but when i got to see them for what they really were like i was left bitter, and i should have known better than to get involved with organized religion. but i do now :smile:
 
esw1966
esw1966 10 years ago

My quick uneducated thought about Mormons and any other group is this:
You only need Jesus for salvation. That's all He states. jw's and (I believe) mormons feel that you need more than Jesus for salvation.
Once you begin to add membership or other ideologies to the salvation equation you begin to be a follower of MAN; thus enslaved and a victim of wolves amongst the sheep.
 
jeanniebeanz
jeanniebeanz 10 years ago

Shawn10538, 'Dude', you're going to have an embolism if you don't calm down. lol
J
 
praiseband
praiseband 10 years ago

Qcmbr, I have a question. Do you believe that you will continue to progress/evolve to a more enlightened or exalted state to become like God? Is there a point at which this type of growth stops because you have advanced as far as possible? Or even once you are exalted do you continue to progress? If yes, how do you know that the God of earth is fully mature and not basically an "adolescent" God. If he is still progressing, then what you have believed to be absolutes at one point in time may prove to be totally or partially wrong in the future. If he has more to learn, then he couldn't have possibly shared everything with the humans he has created. Just something I've been thinking about.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

Rachel - sos - didn't catch your post - just a quick answer no I don't think you need a building to be at one with God or to worship - just its a bit easier to have one. God uses nature more often than He uses buildings as far as I can read... Mt Sinai was far more up close and personal than the temple in Jerusalem ever got.
Praise - I gotta understand what you mean by progress - I think everyone alive wants to progress and know more, experience new things and for me personally (assuming I get a long life) I am also looking forward to my children's lives and grandchildren's lives being shared in part with me. I may get to a point when I know as much as I need to for this life's purposes (i.e by that measure I'm not progressing) but I know I will never have enough of spending time with friends and family - I think that God is like that - He knows everything He needs for His life but he'll never tire of sharing the lives of his children forever. Makes sense to me that if I want that why can't I too experience a never ending family life.
You know that's the one thing I love to ask religious people is what they dream and hope the next part of life is all about. It would be pretty sucky to me if all we got for this effort was a nice garden and talking snakes.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

esw - I did ask the JWs sisters some questions around this topic but I didn't pursue it with any vigour - I'm interested in what things - to the outside viewer - it seems JWs and Mormons put in addition / beside / above Jesus?
With the sisters (do JWs call them sisters?) above I was planning a full on discussion about Jesus v Jehovah and 1 Peter 4:14 but I kinda tailed off but in all honesty this is probably the JW achilles heal from my limited understanding on this site - at the real core is the replacement of Jesus with Jehovah - just as surely as Mary / Saints / Prophets / rules and regs can sometimes seem to receive more effort in other reliogions.
 
praiseband
praiseband 10 years ago

Qcmbr- I appreciate your reply, but I guess I didn't clarify my question very well. I was intending to ask (1) do you believe that you as a human will one day (you use the word that is most accurate for you) become a God? (2)And as a God, will you then "plateau" in your spiritual maturity or will you continue throughout eternity to become even more spiritually mature? (3)Are there God's who are more spiritually mature than others. You do believe there is, and will be, more than one God, correct? Even though you may only actually worship the one you recognize as the God of earth. Thanks for taking the time to reply.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

'They' are coming back!!! I have an appointment this weekend with an Elder - on his own! Cool. My wife said he called round today and looked properly prepared ( I was at work.) I'm looking forward to a good exchange of ideas.
Praise -
Figuring that God is a title to me and indicates a certain level of responsibility, knowledge and glory I would like to think that everyone can reach this level should they so wish. Supposing at some stage of my eternal life I do reach this point then my God would still be the same one I have now (i.e. paternal lines don't change.) Will I progress thereafter - not in knowledge (snce that's a pre-req for being God) but what that means in another thing (do you have more knowledge if you have access to the internet for example - is perfect knowledge the ability to get access to it all or the more difficult concept to envisage - being able to simultaneously conceive all things?)
 
praiseband
praiseband 10 years ago

Q - thanks once again for your reply. The first half in particular really helped me to get a grasp on your perspective. Do you mind if I ask another question? Are men and women equally able to attain the titles of god, independent of each other? Can a man or woman become god without the other? By the way, I really enjoyed the title to your thread - "mini rumble" that's good! Good luck with your next dialogue and I will be thinking about all of you and eager to hear the outcome. Maybe you could call it a "tiny throwdown". Also, I should mention that I am a Biblical Christian. My daughter-in-law is a Witness, so I have come to this website to learn what I can and have been very impressed with the insight that I have gained. Sometimes, it is much easier to learn from a group of diverse strangers than to approach a new relative. I love her very much and hope to have some good, open discussions in the future. We have only had mini discussions up to this point. Take care!
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

Thanks Praise - your question RE men and women shows razor insight into what we believe is a critical requirment to be like God the Father, marriage - hence the statements regarding 'one flesh'.. it is impossible to be a God like the Father without marriage and just as Adam is a dualistic and collective term so can God be used within lds vernacular. Thus man was made in the image of 'God' - male and female.
apols. anyone else - this thread drifted!
(New Testament | Luke 20:34 - 36)
34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
 - just a note that 'children of the world' means not children of God -
(New Testament | Luke 16:8)
8 And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 131:1 - 4)
1 IN the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;
2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];
3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.
4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 132:13 - 16)
13 And everything that is in the world, whether it be ordained of men, by thrones, or principalities, or powers, or things of name, whatsoever they may be, that are not by me or by my word, saith the Lord, shall be thrown down, and shall not remain after men are dead, neither in nor after the resurrection, saith the Lord your God.
14 For whatsoever things remain are by me; and whatsoever things are not by me shall be shaken and destroyed.
15 Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world.
16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.
 

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Topic Summary
first of all want to thank you all for informing me of the good the bad and smurfly about jws - i was so stoked when these two sister's knocked on my door.
i apologise now - i was a smug git - in fairness they conducted themselves impeccably in the face of me.
this is how it went (paraphrased to highlight 'clever' bits i said and downplay swathes of conversation when i said silly things.



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Mormons/LDS
by Evanescence 10 years ago 87 Replies latest 10 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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Evanescence
Evanescence 10 years ago


What would your views be on Mormons?
was there much incidences where jw's and mormons would ever catch eachother while going door-to-door?
Just curious cause both of you do it and wondered if there was ever any conflict between the two....
Evanescence
 
Legolas
Legolas 10 years ago

Here on P.E.I there are only a few mormons! So I anyway only see them every so many years!
 
AK - Jeff
AK - Jeff 10 years ago


There are a lot of Mormons doing mission work here in our area at times.
I always speak with them at the door when they show up - I think it would be odd if the witnesses would bump into them on the street. I remember seeing them when out in the ministry - but never met at the same door.
I have now eliminated Jw's as having the truth - I don't think the mormons are much closer.
Jeff
 
RubaDub
RubaDub 10 years ago


What would your views be on Mormons?
I would seek out their help and recommendations if I was in the market for a new bike.
Rub a Dub
 
TD
TD 10 years ago


There's lot's of both (JW's & LDS) in my area. I've worked with both. (at once) When it comes to doctrine, they fight likes cats and dogs, but under the skin, they're much more alike than they realize. Pardon the expression, but they're both little piglets suckling from the same sow.
Things they have in common:
1. An aging and all too fallible leadership that claims a special relationship with God and on that basis, considers itself above reproach.
2. An idealized view of their church history that is soundly contradicted by their own period literature.
3. A view of ancient history that is soundly contradicted by archeology.
4. A belief that they are the modern-day restoraton of "true worship"
5. A belief that they are somehow "better" than members outside their faith.
6. A persistent belief that global cataclysm is only a few years away at most.
 
Alana
Alana 10 years ago


I remember once many moons ago, when I was still an active JW, I was at my good friend's house and two nice Mormon boys made the ill-fated decision to knock on the door. My friend's husband was just starting to attend meetings and his friend (a jerk-like elder) was also visiting. The guys let the Mormon boys in and at first acted interested, then spun it around to try to witness to them. They made the poor boys squirm a bit in their questions and they if it wasn't a question to which they had a prepared comment, they were truly lost.
I remember my friend and I staying back in the kitchen and thinking how mislead those poor boys were and how spiritual our guys were.......YIKES!! Looking back, those boys were no different than most of the JWs......they prepare their script for the door-to-door work and if approached with deeper questions or 'attacks' to their faith, they can be speechless.
My step-daughter's ex-boyfriend was a Mormon and she started going with him to some church activities and we could tell he had been 'witnessing' to her and it had me worried, as I felt she was too young (16) to be making such life changing decisions such as leaving her church to convert. He was, however, a sweetheart and was a sincere, hardworking boy seemingly with high morals. So, I have nothing against him personally or his family....I just worried about her getting caught up in the religion solely for the boy. He is getting ready to go on his Mission after graduation and they recently broke up.
I know that we have had Mormons on this board and I don't mean anything bad toward them, but my own opinion from what I have experienced and read about LDS church, I feel they are just as 'cult-like' and mislead as JWs. Good people for the most part, but just some 'out there' beliefs.
We live out in the boondocks, so I doubt if they would want to venture out to our place. Oh, I just thought about some past JW friends of mine who moved out to Salt Lake City many years ago. They came back after a couple of years, but I remember he saying that their territory was about 95% Mormon (or at least that it felt like it), so Field Service wasn't very productive.
~"Alana"
 
tetrapod.sapien
tetrapod.sapien 10 years ago


what would your view on the eastern orthodox church be?
because i seem to remember there being a bunch of childish disagreements between them and the catholics. you know, the great schizm of 1054 AD ( - 1450's) where each of the churches excommunicated each others followers?
just wondering if that ever gets in the way of regular businesss for catholics? you know, running into eastern orthodox people when you're out warring against other catholics?
TS
 
OldSoul
OldSoul 10 years ago


I remember my friend and I staying back in the kitchen and thinking how mislead those poor boys were and how spiritual our guys were.......YIKES!! Looking back, those boys were no different than most of the JWs......they prepare their script for the door-to-door work and if approached with deeper questions or 'attacks' to their faith, they can be speechless.
Exactly! Proof of the point: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/98798/1708287/post.ashx#1708287
OldSoul
 
RevFrank
RevFrank 10 years ago


I didn't know this was a Mormon forum too.I'm only joking. But I'm not when I say there are many a mormon who lists and writes in this forum. How Do i know this? Simple, the writings. I, too, lived in Nauvoo Illinois where the first main Mormon belief came up. Oh I know, they started in Missouri too, but Joe Smith was run out of town. But in Nauvoo Smith established the religion the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. But then again Brigham Young altered the church when Young went to create Salt Lake City, after Smith's death.
What's the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints? They are a group that broke off from Brigham Young and settled in Missouri. Oh yeah...they don't like being called Mormons. Or at least my 12th grade high school girl friend told me. She belonged to the Organized group.
 Anyway they are a group of good folks, that includes the jehovah witnesses.What do they have in connon? Easy answer......" But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are parishing, whose minds the god of htis age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ , who is the image of God, should shine on them."(2Corinthians 4: 3,4)
 Oh yeah..one more thing in common...."knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation."(2Peter 1:20)
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

I quite like them
 
daystar
daystar 10 years ago

Hey, I'm all for any religion that seeks to enslave the masses. Makes them easier to herd.
 
Darth Yhwh
Darth Yhwh 10 years ago


I’ve had Mormons stop by my doorstep twice now in the last two months or so. The first time I just told them that I wasn’t interested. I was expecting JW’s and was looking forward to giving them a thrashing so I was a little disappointed when I found out they were Mormons.
The second time they came by I asked them all kinds of doctrinal questions. They handled my questions quite well, which led me to believe that these particular two gents were well versed in their religion. They left me with a pamphlet that tells the story of how the church got founded. It felt like reading and looked like WBTS rhetoric. The boys were nice and I enjoyed our chat however I tend to agree with TD regarding some of the similarities that he’s mentioned.
 
FlyingHighNow
FlyingHighNow 10 years ago

I had a study going with a lovely young mother of 6. Her husband was very abusive and kept her and her children literally boarded up in her house a good bit of the time. In fact, I thought her house might be abandoned the first time I called on her. Pretty soon after I started calling on her, the Mormons started as well. She was able to easily refute them with information from me. But she also saw through them and would go over what they were trying to teach her, each week with me, after our study. I hope that Linda never did get baptized. She ended up with 14 children, the last time I called on her.
 
Cygnus
Cygnus 10 years ago


Very many moons ago when I was about 17 I was engaged in the door to door ministry of Jehovah's Witnesses with a pioneer fella who was a couple of years older than me and a passer-by asked us if we were affiliated with the "Joseph Smith movement." We answered, "Uh, no sir, we're JWs." "Ah," was all he said as he went on his way. I and my buddy looked at each other and verbally wondered who this Smith guy was.
Flash forward 8 years and I've recently left the JWs and on the advice from the congo that I was spiritually endangering her, my wife left me. A couple of Mormon dudes....er... elders knocked on my door. I asked if they had a Book of Mormon I could have. They didn't, and said they'd come back with one. So we made an appointment for them to make a return visit (  ) and they gave me a free BoM, and asked if we could read a portion from within. I said sure, and it was several verses about some guy traveling far into the Americas and by faith was led to some place and did this and that and the other thing and when we finally finished they asked if they could say a prayer. I said sure, so off they went with "Heavenly Father, we thank you for blah blah blah and may Jason here have his eyes opened to the truth of the Book of Mormon blah blah blah Amen!" And I said "Amen" as well. Then they asked if I felt any different. Apparently at this point the Holy Spirit is supposed to envelope a person and guide him towards becoming fascinated with Mormonism. I didn't feel anything, other than "this is getting weird." So I politely said No and I had expected their visit to be brief as I had something else planned very soon (in other words, I kicked them out so I could read the newspaper online and get drunk).
Other than meeting the occasional Mormon online and doing work for certain customers who were clearly Mormon (they all have the same picture of Jesus in their homes, as well as 18 kids), that's been the extent of my dealings with members of the LDS church.
 
tdogg
tdogg 10 years ago


Well, since I live in the capitol of Zion as they call it, I tend to have mixed feelings. I have met the full spectrum range of Mormon types. Yes, they can be easily categorized due to years of genetic restriction. Do you not believe me? Well come spend some time here and you will see for yourself.
I play basketball once a week at a Mormon church with a very nice group of guys. Some of the most amazing people I have met are LDS, some are downright evil. Most of the time they do not bother you but there are times one just wants to scream and slap that goofy smile off their face and say "ARE YOU F*CKING KIDDING ME!" But we don't.
Mormons in groups are very annoying. Therefore if you work somewhere with a high percentage of Mormons you will be in for some aggravation, especially if those in charge are Mormons. Church hierarchy will take over in the workplace.
Yes when I was a JW publisher we ran into Mormons about say, every other house on average. In some neighborhoods more, some less. Few wanted to argue with us most were very nice and just didn't want to be bothered (like everyone else who's doorbell we rang). If you run across the missionaries while in door to door work they probably would not engage you in a dogmatic debate. They would be kind, exchange pleasantries, ask a few questions and smile that goofy smile, then be off on their way. Most are much kinder and far less depressed than JW's. But then, a mission is only 2 years long whereas door to door goes on and on and on and on and...well you get my point.
Little known fact: Mormons from outside Utah behave much differently than Mormons raised in Utah. I generally prefer Mormans who were not raised in Utah. Perhaps its the "Mormons in groups are annoying" axiom at work here.
 
TD
TD 10 years ago


Mormons from outside Utah behave much differently than Mormons raised in Utah

That's funny. The Mormons here in Arizona will roll their eys and use the expression "Utah Mormon" almost like it's a swear word
 
mormon 4 life
mormon 4 life 10 years ago

hi every1 we lds are very good people & we are ot like the jw's
 
under74
under74 10 years ago

mormon 4 life--I don't doubt that there are very good people in LDS...in my experience with mormons however (including family members) the same kind of narrow minded thinking prevails. Doesn't mean that all mormons are the same. I know that some mormon people are more open to change unlike most JWs HOWEVER for me the beliefs of both Mormons and JWs are too similiar and...sorry-- but crazy. Both religions sprouted from the same seed and although the LDS has gone main stream I still will think of it as closely related to JWs....but don't take this as a slight against all mormon people. I don't think all JWs are awful...just misguided.
 
googlemagoogle
googlemagoogle 10 years ago

i've seen a lot of morons in my congregation.
 
Evanescence
Evanescence 10 years ago


hi every1 we lds are very good people & we are ot like the jw's
Hello Mormon 4 life  what are your basic beliefs? I heard a bit about mormons, but I never get them to my door  Heard they are a nice bunch though.... Evanescence
 

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Mormons/LDS
by Evanescence 10 years ago 87 Replies latest 10 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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free2beme
free2beme 10 years ago

If I became a Morman, I would see it as digging myself out of one trap, only to fall into another. Only difference, the Morman's at least think it is okay to have a decent enough job to make money ... as long as you pay back 10%. Studying the Morman faith and getting any honest answers from their believers is hard. Morman's will not tell you what is really happening in the faith, unless you are a "true" believer. You think the Witnesses have secrets, you haven't seen nothing yet, until you unwrap the LDS package.
 
Evanescence
Evanescence 10 years ago


yeah I have heard that its hard to understand the LDS faith, and in this case its hard to get any clear answers out of the mormons and the ex-mormons.....
Evanescence
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

Hiya Ev.
Here's our stock answer of core belief's
1 WE believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.
Here's my short list to add:
You must have a personal relationship with God and a conviction of the faith ('flesh and blood hath not revealed it to you') - we call it a testimony.
God/ Jesus/Holy Ghost - 3 seperate people. God and Jesus have bodies.
Jesus is Jehovah - God of old testament - it was His people He taught and died amongst.
Adam and Eve are honoured for giving us our turn on earth and the chance to return back to God after making our own mistakes and making our own way.
Free agency - the ability to make moral choices.
LDS church is a restoration and literal kingdom of God restored by God to a prophet not via well meaning individuals with a particular take on the bible.
Priesthood only given by someone who received it from somone who can trace their line of authority literally to Jesus Christ (via Peter, James and John)
Living prophet.
Continous new revelation and scripture.
Word of Wisdom - our health code (no alcohol, tea, coffee, non-medicinal drugs, eat healthy, look after your body.)
Tithes and Offerings. 10% of income or increase to church plus additional offerings as required plus once a month a fast and a donation to our welfare program.
Welfare program - money and food for members in need in return for work. Welfare program also provides emergency relief and humanitarian assistance worldwide.
Family Home Evening - Monday night is 'sacred' no activities outside family allowed/encouraged. Night for family to be together and have lesson/fun/quality time.
Temple - opportunity to do baptism for dead (ie we believe everyone who ever lived must be baptised), sealings (families are sealed together forever - so your kids will always be your kids , your spouse is always your spouse, all way back to Adam making us one big eternal family)
Resurrection - everyone to be resurrected - no more 'isms' at that time i.e. no 'mormonism' Everyone to be rewarded according to what they wanted. If people wanted to live by doing bad things then they will receive a beautiful paradise, if people wanted to be good but didn't want to accept the sacrifice of Jesus they will receive an even better place but again all sealings gone, finally everyone who accepts Jesus both here and in the afterlife gains eternal life (meaning with God and knowing all God has and becoming as God.) No mormons only going to 'heaven' malarky. Side note everyone not accepting Jesus payment for sins (including agony in Gethsemane) have to pay for it themselves - called pains of Hell. One small sub group - those who know Jesus and have no more faith and then turn away from him, deny the Holy Ghost - cast out to 'outer darkness' where they will rule over satan and his angels (by dint of a body - they still get resurrected)
Relationship to all other faiths - good people are in all of them and have a bright reward but they don't have the priesthood therefore LDS have to do the baptism and sealing on their behalf when they die - same way that Jesus had to die for us - lds consider this a service for all mankind - not a make everyone a mormon ploy (no 'ism' after death.)
Hope that's ok. And for those who keep alluding to 'dark secerets' I hope anyone whose read my post history will know that as far as I'm concerned , as long as you have a bit of respect, I'll tell you anything. I have read all our secrets and none of them are 'oh my gosh - its all false' things.
 
Evanescence
Evanescence 10 years ago



 Thankyou very much Qcmbr that was all indeed very interesting
Hope that's ok. And for those who keep alluding to 'dark secerets' I hope anyone whose read my post history will know that as far as I'm concerned , as long as you have a bit of respect, I'll tell you anything. I have read all our secrets and none of them are 'oh my gosh - its all false' things.
Why do LDS have "secrets?"
I don't hear much from the Mormons, I don't get them to my door  what are you guys like door-to-door?
Qcmbr, what brings you to this forum?
Evanescence
 
LittleToe
LittleToe 10 years ago


Q:
 I have to admit that you're the most candid of LDS I've had the pleasure to exchange comments with, even though you do wriggle around a bit, sometimes
Just to pick out a few of your beliefs that most here will find unusual:
1.The father has a body but the Holy Spirit hasn't yet got one
2.You use the Trinitarian language of "godhead" but don't actually mean that at all
3.New Jerusalem will come down to the good old US of A
4.You believe in apostolic succession, like the Catholics, but see a 2000 year jump from Peter to Joseph Smith, with little but apostasy in the intervening years
5.You believe that Joseph Smith's "adapted" King James Version of the bible is more accurate than that used by churches, not because of textual analysis but because of divine revelation to him. Because of this you'd likely hold the Book of Mormon in higher regard than a church KJV bible
6.Whatever you say about people not needing to be LDS to be "saved", you do hold that they will have to be LDS if they are to reach the highest reaches of the after-life promises of God
7.You baptise all on behalf of the dead, regardless of whether or not they wished this or have previously been baptised by the Christian church, in the hope that they will learn about LDS and convert in your form of purgatory
8.Those who deny the Holy Ghost are those who have been members of the LDS faith and have left and "apostasised", and hence are condemned to "hell" for all eternity, hence keeping the flock in line
Feel free to elaborate, or to point out where I may have unwittingly misrepresented you. I am more than happy to have pointed out where I have erred.
 
dontomas
dontomas 10 years ago


This is one of the best articles on Mormonism I ever read and is right on the mark in my humble opinion.....I don't think this magazine is around anymore but its articles survive on a few websites....link follows.
http://www.webcom.com/gnosis/ahp.htm
 
under74
under74 10 years ago


Eva-
what are you guys like door-to-door?
I've only had a couple come up to my door. All young males in the standard uniform. Polite mostly....actually the last time a couple of them came up to my door I had my neice over and right before hand I had 2 calls with people with emergencies and the back patio was starting to flood (rain) because the drain was full of leaves....so I went back there to clean it out.....my neice starts yelling someone's at the door and by the time I get to where I can see the door I realize she's already opened it---she was told not to open the door to strangers!!...anyway I was flustered and there were 2 young guys there. One of them asks if he could give me some pamphlet and I'm like "NOOOOOOOOOOO (whiney voice), that's the last thing I need right now." Anyway, this kid asked if he could help me with anything...I'm sure he could tell I was very very busy and wet. I declined... but he seemed like a nice boy. Much more then the mormon boys I've seen on the bus in San Francisco (Filmore Street)....is it really that hard for 20 year old males to give up their seats to old women? Anyway...just thought I'd tell ya a story....
Q- What do you think about the Burned-Over District?
 
stevenyc
stevenyc 10 years ago


Mormons suffer the same problem as Jehovahs Witnesses. They are burned by their own prophetic history. Check this out:
Oliver B. Huntington recorded in his diary:
"The inhabitants of the moon are more of a uniform size than the inhabitants of the earth, being six feet in height. They dress very much like the Quaker style and are quite general in style or fashion of dress. They live to be very old; coming generally near a thousand years. This is the description of them as given by Joseph [Smith] the Seer, and he could see whatever he asked the Father in the name of Jesus to see" - Journal of Oliver B. Huntington, Vol 2, p 166, emphasis added

Here's Brigham Young (second president and "prophet" of the LDS church) on the inhabitants of the moon and the sun:
"I will tell you who the real fanatics are: they are they who adopt false principles and ideas as facts, and try to establish a superstructure upon, a false foundation. They are the fanatics; and however ardent and zealous they may be, they may reason or argue on false premises till doomsday, and the result will be false. If our religion is of this character we want to know it; we would like to find a philosopher who can prove it to us. We are called ignorant; so we are: but what of it? Are not all ignorant? I rather think so. Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening, called the moon? When we view its face we may see what is termed "the man in the moon," and what some philosophers declare are the shadows of mountains. But these sayings are very vague, and amount to nothing; and when you inquire about the inhabitants of that sphere you find that the most learned are as ignorant in regard to them as the most ignorant of their fellows. So it is with regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it; it was not made in vain. It was made to give light to those who dwell upon it, and to other planets; and so will this earth when it is celestialized. Every planet in its first rude, organic state receives not the glory of God upon it, but is opaque; but when celestialized, every planet that God brings into existence is a body of light, but not till then. Christ is the light of this planet." - Journal of Discourses Vol. 13, p.271, emphasis added

Joseph Fielding Smith, apostle and later president of the church (as well as prophet, seer and revelator) said, in his book Doctrines of Salvation, volume 1, pp 88-89 (1954, Bookcraft, Salt Lake City) about the sun as a "celestial" body:
"It is my opinion that the great stars that we see, including our sun, are celestial worlds; at least worlds that have passed on to their exaltation or other final resurrected status. This is in conflict, of course, with the teachings of scientific men, who declare that the sun is losing its energy and gradually cooling off and will eventually be a dead world. I do not believe the Lord has any such thing in his plan. The Lord lives in 'everlasting burnings' we are informed. President Brigham Young has said that this earth when it is celestialized will shine like the sun, and why not?
"'If the people could fully understand this matter,' he said, 'they would perceive that it is perfectly reasonable and has been the law of all worlds. And this world, so benighted at present, and so lightly esteemed by infidels, ... when it becomes celestialized, it will be like the sun, and be prepared for the habitation of the saints, and be brought back into the presence of the Father and the Son. It will not then be an opaque body as it now is, but it will be like the stars of the firmament, full of light and glory; it will be a body of light. John compared it, in its celestialized state, to a sea of glass.' (Journal of Discourses 7:163)" [emphasis in original]

Most rank and file LDS don't know their own history, and a little cognative dissonence steps in when shown. All to farmiliar, IMHO.
steve
 
blondie
blondie 10 years ago


The Mormons that I have talked to also have some disturbing ideas:
Adam and Eve were given 2 conflicting laws from God.
1) To multiple and fill the earth
2) Not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and bad (including the knowledge of human procreation)
In order to fulfill one, they had to break the other, that God never intended the earth to be a permanent place for humans but merely a testing ground for spirits to come down from heaven and live a life that either gains them higher privileges as a spirit when they return or eternal death as neither a human or a spirit.
Second that they don't believe in a trinity but that Jesus is Jehovah. (only 2 thus they don't believe in a trinity).
Third, that the Book of Mormon and other LDS holy books supersede the Bible comparing it to the NT superseding the OT.
I always felt that leaving the WTS and becoming a LDS would be like jumping out of the pan into the fire.
Blondie
 
LittleToe
LittleToe 10 years ago

In fairness, if I were to choose a cult, I'd prefer the Mormons over the JWs
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

Wow - lots of questions - I've been to work in between my last post: OK I'll try and address each point with one caveat - I'm just a numpty - I'm not an official spokesperson for the church (lds.org for the public face). If I make mistakes blame me.
Why do LDS have "secrets?"
I don't hear much from the Mormons, I don't get them to my door what are you guys like door-to-door?
Qcmbr, what brings you to this forum?
Ev. LDS have secrets for two reasons:
1/ Some things are 'official' secrets and these are in regard to sacred things such as the temple. Though as many will happily point out the secrets are about as well hidden as the Eiffel Tower if you dig around the internet.
2/ The other secrets are the historical parts of the church's formation regarding such practises as polygamy, blacks and the priesthood, Steve's moon men, Adam God theory, finacial practises, masonry, dannites, mountain meadows massacre etc.. these are the parts of lds history that the church doesn't dwell because 1/ There are few facts (take the moon men quote from the journal - that statement has no record in official church history or as church doctrine ) 2/ The church was in the wrong (and before anyone get's excited the only time I ever heard anything like this was one of our greatest prophets lamenting the fact that the priesthood should have gone to all men sooner and it was our failure that it hadn't) 3/ Current revelation supercedes it therefore we don't argue over it anymore (polygamy is not practised currently therefore anyone doing it is excommunicated however, the practise itself is only right or wrong depending on the commandment at the time - not inherantly so.)
As for door to door - depends on who you get - some are arrogant, cheeky, immature but the majority of our missionaries are happy, fun loving and genuinely pleased to be there. They aren't trying to scare anyone into church - just share the gospel and baptise everything that moves.
All in all the LDS church has done something incredible. It started with the purpose of building Zion and has done a pretty smart job so far.
LT - your points - spot on.
You use the Trinitarian language of "godhead" but don't actually mean that at all - we use the word Godhead to mean 'group' as in a united threesome, united in purpose in testifying of each other.
Whatever you say about people not needing to be LDS to be "saved", you do hold that they will have to be LDS if they are to reach the highest reaches of the after-life promises of God - but LDS is just a moniker. If we dropped that and said 'Christian' I think we'd agree..? Like I said all we really claim different from anyone else is real authority in the form of the Priesthood - and just as baptism was repeated in the bible so a little double dipping helps here:) Theis ties in with the idea of everyone joing the lds faith in purgatory - well no not quit. The LDS faith doesn't exist in (paradise;) just those who believe in Jesus and those who don't (yet). Baptism is required, just as birth and death are, to complete the plan. Everyone must be baptised regardless of faith ('Except a man be born of the water and the spirit he can in nowise inherit the Kingdom of God') No one else is doing this for all of mankind - how can any 'christian' church believe that it is following God's plan if it doesn't have backup for those who never get to hear the message?
U74 - Burned-Over District. I think that only once in America's history could teh LDS church have ever made such an appearance and grown the way it did. I think this time in America's history was a golden age and certainly was partially responsible for Joseph Smith's question ' Which of all the churches is true?'

Steven - men on the moon. It is official church doctrine that the universe is inhabited by life on countless worlds. In all teh quotes given th eofficial church doctrine about teh Celestialisation of the earth and the inhabitation of the universe are alluded to - the moon part however, is their personal opinion. Who knows:) Its in all likelhood cobblers but you have to make a distinction between doctrine and opinion (i.e. all you Christians - do you keep your women quiet in the church, make them wear long hair?) Doctrine leads to action, opinion is fairly meaningless. If I as Elder's Quorum President claim that we never went to the moon - my church position does not lend it any weight - same with our prophets. They are not in some constant state of rapturous revelation. Good point about LDS not knowing their own history! Our history is one of the richest most biblical ever - filled with incredible miracles, angelic visitations, new scripture, intrepid escapes and our own exodus.
Blondie, exactly right about the conflicting laws. Puts a whole new slant on Adam and Eve. The whole plan hinged on Eve making the decision to leave the presence of God and on Adam being smart enough to follow. They are two of my heros. God wants us to grow on our own, we could never truly be free when the only two laws that could be broken involved eating fruit and making babies. That is why we call it a transgression. The law had to be broken.
Our heirarchy for doctrine is as follows:
1/ Word of the current prophet (i.e. you wouldn't have disbelieved Moses if he said something different to what he wrote yesterday.)
2/ Next doctrine of the church. Built up from words of modern and ancient prophets , including certain interpretations of bible scripture (an kind of example is the Articles of Faith I gave above).
3/ Book of Mormon (history of a group of Israelites), Doctrine and Covenants (our current church handbook of revelations) and Pearl of Great Price (additional scripture from the bible period) - simply becasue they aren't translated by scholars but by prophets.
4/ The Bible last - not because it is least respected , simply because it underpins everything else, it is our final yardstick and where it is internally in discord or is difficult to understand we then turn to our additional scripture / words of prophet for clarification.
Sorry that took so long.
 
stevenyc
stevenyc 10 years ago


qcmbr, thanks for the reply.
Could you explain something to me. How do LDS view the opinions of their prophets? Those ones from outside the standard bible books. Do you take them with a pinch of salt, or are they seen as gospel?
steve
 
oldflame
oldflame 10 years ago

I used to be a mormon when I was a teenager, it is as far fetched as the JW's let me tell you......
 
LittleToe
LittleToe 10 years ago


In connection with "godhead", I've seen Missionaries point to the Bible and "Doctrine and Covenant" and let the householder believe what they will concerning LDS teaching on the Trinity. 'Tis a little dishonest, you surely have to agree?
Regarding double-dipping, I was baptised in water as a JW and again in Spirit as a believer and again in water as a Christian. Dang, I'd be permanently wrinkled if I listened to everyone!!!
If my great-great-great-grand-children were to become LDS you'd expect them to be immersed on my [post humous] behalf, even though I was baptised as a Christian, wouldn't you?
Besides, is there no water in limbo/paradise, given that there's a lake before the throne in Revelation?
Thanks for your candor regarding the "hierarchy of doctrine". The WTS ultimately put the Watchtower above the Bible, but they'd never admit it...
 
TD
TD 10 years ago





One of the most amazing things to me about the BOM (No offense to anyone) is the idea of a widespread culture that produced durable objects vanishing without a trace. It doesn't matter if you are atheist; with the Bible you are at least dealing with real places that you can go and see today and real cultures whose artifacts endure.
The Mount of Olives, the pool of Siloam and Hezekiah's tunnel, the Wailing Wall -- these are all things you can see today. Pottery, tilework, ceramics, gold jewelry and bronze-age armor, tablets and steles, masonry structures --- we have these from all the major civilizations mentioned in the Bible. We have so many of these things in fact that you could spend the rest of your life examining these antiquities and still not see them all.
The problem we have today, of not knowing what to do with our "things" once we've made them is nothing new. This is because some things are durable. They don't rust, they don't disolve, they don't burn, they don't dry up and blow away. Not only do they not vanish naturally, some of them, once created cannot be eradicated without a trace even intentionally. For example, once the molecular structure of clay has been altered in a kiln, how do you get rid if the resulatant ceramic? Ceramic is waterproof, impervious to most chemicals and it will survive any temperature you can devise. It can be broken, true but all you get are smaller pieces of ceramic. If you break those you get still smaller pieces, ad infinitum
The BOM describes cultures similar to those that inhabited ancient Mesopotamia:

Abinadi standing before King Noah has been variously rendered by Mormon artists. I've never seen one that is not full of durable objects. Copper alloy armor, gold jewelry, masonry, ceramic tiles, you name it. Personally, I don't see any reason to believe that such a civilization ever existed.
 
DanTheMan
DanTheMan 10 years ago


the moon part however, is their personal opinion. Who knows:smile:
Oh, come on!
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

Dan - I personally don't think there are men on the moon however, I don't think we've ever been there either. I like the odd conspiracy theory.
LT - it is very 'tempting' to be sparing with the full truth as you describe but having done my own share of missionary work there is one issue that I used to come up against - time (rather than dishonesty). Unlike JWs we tend to go for a baptism as soon as the individual feels the spirit - a lot more spontaneous approach than the longer JW book study approach (and I'm not saying that LDS speed is better) the point of suggesting baptism isn't at the full understanding of doctrine, its the point that born agains would probably allude to as the point of feeling saved - the witness from God of truth (in all honesty I doubt most christians know all the doctrine at the point when they convert?). I've baptised plenty of people that didn't understand the full doctrine but did actually know Jesus is the Christ. It's more often a balance between constantly saying , 'no - youre wrong this is what you should believe' and actually saying 'OK God says its true, saddle up and we'll teach you how to ride - we'll cover the theory of how to do it along the way.'
On the other hand , I'm still learning the doctrine and I've been a member all my life (and what I mean by that is despite knowing the textbook stuff I'm a bazillion miles away from actually practisisng it fully - I'm a bad lad;)
TD the widespread culture thing is definately a thorn in the side of LDS apologetics - I'll post some info in a sec - I'll just switch browsers.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago


Some Cultural Issues in the book of Mormon: Forget the art used to illustrate the BOM , it's just guesswork and certainly not a statement of how it really was.
1/ No Israelite/semitic dna found in American Indians - in fact almost exclusively asiatic dna.
2/ Hill Cumorah (gold plates hidden there) is in New York area whereas the BOM suggests a more central Americas location.
3/ 'White', bearded Indians. No evidence.
4/ BOM talks about a Christian conversion for the BOM peoples at the time of Christ's death (they were some of the 'Other sheep')
5/ BOM mentions horses / steel / concrete all way before they were introduced to the American continent.
6/ There just isn't enough time for the few people mentioned in the BOM to have grown into a nation that could be waging internal wars.
7/ Writing on gold plates using egyptian heiroglyphic style text.
What I'm going to show is some interesting things found in the Americas:

A maze of man-made chambers, walls and ceremonial meeting places, America's Stonehenge is one of the oldest man-made construction in the US. (over 4000 years old). Archaeological excavations have uncovered an amazing range of historic and pre-historic artifacts-from stone tools, pottery and ancient old world scripts.


In "The History of the Cross" we are told that, "In Palenque, in Mexico, are the remains of an ancient Aztec temple. At the back of one of the altars in that temple is a bas- relief cross some ten feet high. It is a superb design, rich in symbolic carving. Above the cross perches the figure of a bird.... The Mayans and Aztecs of Meso-America and the Nazca, Ica, Moche, and Inca civilizations of ancient Peru [all] used crosses."

This ceramic bust of a bearded man with distinctly Old World features was found in Veracruz, Mexico, and has been dated to 300 AD or earlier. Beards were (and still are) almost non-existent among most indiginous Meso-American tribes.

This first century BC city, now an ancient ruin, can be found 30 miles northeast of Mexico City. Teotihuacan, literally translated from the Nahuatl, means "place where men become gods." Teotihuacan had already been deserted for 600 years when the Aztecs found it. Cement and stucco are found in great quantities at this site.

When the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered, among them was perhaps the most intriguing scroll of all - the Copper Scroll. It was found in 1952 in Cave 3 at Khirbet Qumran on the shores of the Dead Sea. Since then, several other ancient scriptural texts have been found on metal plates or scrolls.

Professor Dorothy Hosler of MIT's Center for Materials Research has found pre-Columbian evidence of copper smelting at El Machon, Guerreo, Mexico. Copper was used to make bronze, and various bronze alloys were often referred to as "steel," even in the KJV English translation of the Bible.

This 2500 year-old Etruscan artifact was discovered 60 years ago in a tomb uncovered during digging for a canal along the Strouma river in south-western Bulgaria. It contains six bound sheets of 24 carat gold, with illustrations of a horse-rider, a mermaid, a harp and soldiers. The Etruscans were wiped out in the 4th century BC.

A 1998 DNA study conducted by The Center for Molecular Medicine, Emory University School of Medicine, Atlanta, GA has discovered a mitochondrial DNA strain in some 3% of Amerindians called "Haplo-group X" which supports a pre-Columbian migration of caucasians to the Americas. Haplo-group X is NOT found in Asians, demonstrating it did not come across the Bering Strait.

Ancient Pre-Columbian
Bearded Incense Burner
with Semitic facial features
found in Guatemala
In addition to numerous bearded figurines, carvings, and murals, there have been numerous finds of representations of people who are plainly caucasoid (not resembling the typical Mayans or other Meso-Americans) and very Semitic in appearance.

One of the best kept secrets of Mayan archeology is that quite a lot of Mayan art shows dark and light skinned peoples. The Bureau of American Ethnology calls this "wearing the skins of one's enemy," and dismisses it as as religious ceremony .

The Micmac language was discovered by Catholic priests in 1609 when, as they preached to the Indians, they were shocked to see them taking notes in a strange language. The priests copied the characters, which much later were compared to hieroglyphs used by ancient Libyans and Egyptians and found to have many of the same meanings

The Pontotoc Stele
unearthed in Oklahoma by
Gloria Farley and Weldon Stout.
The Pontotoc Stele, according to Dr. Barry Fell, a celebrated if not controversial epigraphist, is written in a Phoenecian language called Iberian Punic and contains a “Hymn to the Aton,” by Pharaoh Akhnaton. It reads, “When BaaI-Ra rises in the east, the beasts are content, and (when he hides his face?) they are displeased.” The artifact has been tentatively dated to approximately 100 BC. The Hymn, an ancient Egyptian heresy, supposedly expunged, infiltrated Israelite tradition after a lapse of many centuries, and is reflected in the 104th Psalm.
I have more pictures of things like elephants / horses / wheeled artefacts / ruins that look like baptismal fonts. I have articles on the amazing number of arrowheads found in upstate New York indicating a huge battle there (BOM ends in a huge battle at the Hill Cumorah - in NY state.) Burial mounds dotted all over north America with steel weapons found in them.
Why where the indigenous people expecting a white , bearded God to return to them (a fact used by the Spanish and Captain Cook to their advantage?)

Last bit - the dna issue: The BOM describes a population coming from Asia at the time of the tower of Babel - this civilisation was millions strong only a few years before the Israelite migrants arrived. The few Israelite settlers clearly intermingled with the native population and all but wiped out any DNA trace very rapidly.
If anyone is interested I have some other internal things in the BOM that are internally consistent with an ancient culture. Either Joseph Smith was a friggin' genius / lucky in the extreme/ he copied it from someone who was a genius/lucky or it was what he claimed it was.
After all this I don't believe due to any of above - they are merely random ideas and fragments of evidence. I believe because I read the book and asked if it was true. Please feel free to refute any of the above. I don't defend any of them as real evidence, just curios.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

interesting effect! not quite what I was hoping for.
knickers.
 
DannyHaszard
DannyHaszard 10 years ago


Mormons have schools of higher education,and institutions to help their people prosper and have a high standard of living.
I also hear (may be in error) that you really have to piss them off to get shunned,that they don't bust up and wreck familys like the Watchtower cult.
Moreover,Mormons didn't screw me the JW/WT did
 

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what would your views be on mormons?.
was there much incidences where jw's and mormons would ever catch eachother while going door-to-door?.
just curious cause both of you do it and wondered if there was ever any conflict between the two..... evanescence



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Mormons/LDS
by Evanescence 10 years ago 87 Replies latest 10 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

how do I get pictures to show in firefox? Hi Danny, they picked the wrong guy to buzz the day they screwed you.
 
DanTheMan
DanTheMan 10 years ago

Qcmbr, with all due respect, the "men on the moon" thing sounds a lot like JW's and their pre-flood water canopy theory: a now-embarrassing assertion made by long-deceased leaders of the movement but never officially declared null and void by the current leadership, so JW's just sorta don't talk about that....
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

Maybe, but if you want to reject JS you'd hopefully do it a lot earlier on rather than with some obscure references that don't have any doctrinal point.
If I was ever made a prophet (highly doubtful - my wife won't let me have a beard) there are soooo many things I've said that would be used by critics to point out my fallability (like when I said Liverpool would never win the European cup again and that I was going to be an olympic long jumper and my high school comment - 'the holocaust never happened' (before I get flamed I got my terms mixed up, I meant something totally different - what a goof ball!)) Suffice to say - being a prophet / leader of a church does not stop error/opinion(even Moses made a few prize goof ups while a prophet.) By their fruits ye shall know them.
Just for interest sake you should read the story of JS (I'd start with his version before heading to his critics) - its interesting and you may find some sympathy with his early questions and struggles with empty religion.
 
TD
TD 10 years ago





Hi Qcmbr,
Forget the art used to illustrate the BOM , it's just guesswork and certainly not a statement of how it really was.
You're right, these are certainly not photographs, they are only artist's conceptions. That's why I pointed out that this particular scene (Abinadi amid the splendor (Mosiah 11:8) of King Noah) has been, "...variously rendered by Mormon artists."
That doesn't remove the problem because these pictures are simply illustrative of things that are in the text of the BOM itself.
The BOM describes cultures that employed gold and silver as jewelry, ornamentation and a medium of exchange:(Jacob 1:16; 2:12; Jarom 1:8; Mosiah 2:12; 4:19; 8:9; 11:3, 8, 9, 11; 19:15; 22:12; 28:11; Alma 1:29; 4:6; 11:3, 4 ,5, 7, 8, 9, 10; 15:16; 17:14; 31:24; Helaman 6:9, 11, 31; 7:21; 3 Ne 6:2; 24:3)
It describes copper alloy (e.g. bronze and brass) armor (Mosiah 8:10) like the two soldiers are wearing in the picture. It describes iron and even steel(!) and all manner of metallic tools and weapons.(2 Ne 5:15; Jarom 1:8)
Pictures or no pictures, the BOM describes the production of an abundance of durable objects. Gold for example is sometimes poetically called, "The eternal metal" because once it's been mined, smelted and refined, it never returns to its natural state.
There's an exhibition currently touring America entitled, "Treasures From the Royal Tombs of Ur." I think it's somewhere in the midwest right now. This exhibition features hundreds of perfectly preserved gold and gold alloy (e.g. electrum) artifacts that were already ancient at the time of Christ. (This collection is 4500 years old.) Another one toured a few years ago entitled "Treasures of Ancient Egypt" Same story --- Hundreds and hundreds of artifacts that were already over a thousand years old at the time of Christ.
Regardless of what one believes about the Bible, there can be little doubt about the existence of the ancient Sumerians and Egyptians. Leaving things behind is a trademark of human beings and the more advanced a culture becomes, the more it leaves behind.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

Hi TD - did you see my earlier post with all the pictures (you need IE for some reason?)
 
TD
TD 10 years ago



Hi TD - did you see my earlier post with all the pictures (you need IE for some reason?)
I can't... The pictures are on your local C drive (C:\Documents and Settings\Dave\Desktop\New Folder) which is not accessible from "the other side" of the internet. Pictures have to be hosted on a server with a public IP
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

aww cr*p OK. Let me repost the pics.
 
stevenyc
stevenyc 10 years ago



 Qcmbr,
try snapfish.com, hosted by hp, its free and easy.
After you set up an account, and upload you picture, just copy and paste the URL to the picture using the "insert a picture from the web" icon here at JWD.
steve.
PS, with all due respect, I'll have to admit that your reasoning of LSD history, and prophet quotation is a pile of pants. IMHO. But, thanks for sharing your explanation. And I do appreciate your style of explanation too.
 
TD
TD 10 years ago


I think this might be a site in the same vein:
http://www.the-book-of-mormon.com/photos-page3.html
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago


Haha - and I do this sort of thing for a living. What a goof ball I am.
Cross Image.
Bearded bloke
His bearded mate.

Middle Eastern Gold Plates
Potentially white and coloured people.
Old World text in Oklahoma. Just pretend you can see more than a fuzzy yellow block.
Some very similar concepts and images from American tribe.
Cemented buildings (with spacious views, parking and great neighbours:wink:
America's stonehenge.
Can't remember why this was useful - something about an egyptian motif and story.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

aww now this isn't funny. I'm off to bed. Blow this for a load of rubbish.
 
poppers
poppers 10 years ago

I've had Mormons come to my house; most recently, two women (!) came a year ago. I have found them to be open and willing to at least hear about other viewpoints, and even (so they said anyway) think about about the things I brought up. What I attempt to do is to get them to, momentarily at least, see what happens when all beliefs/ideas are let go of, to see how "what is" gets skewed by any belief, and how "what is" needs no filtering system to be experienced. What happens after they leave I have no idea. In most cases, I'm fairly certain, they revert to their belief system - they go back to "sleep" and continue their dream version of "what is".
 
Dune
Dune 10 years ago


The thing that turned me off the most about the mormons was their belief that all non-whites went to lower levels of Heaven when they died.
I dont know if they stick to the belief now, but one time is always enough for me.
 
Double Edge
Double Edge 10 years ago


The thing that turned me off the most about the mormons was their belief that all non-whites went to lower levels of Heaven when they died.
I dont know if they stick to the belief now, but one time is always enough for me.
Mormons never believed that, although there was a time that the African Americans weren't allowed to hold their priesthood, just as women can't today (not only in the mormon church, but other christian churches as well). They were, however, always allowed to be baptised and join their church. Secondly, if you know anything about the history of most of the Christian churches in America, you would know that less than a hundred years ago those 'Christians' didn't believe that blacks had souls and it was VERY rare for a white congregation anywhere to have blacks in their fold. The blacks started their own Christian churches (the music was better too). It's only been in the past 25 years or so that black and whites can be found together in a Christian congregation. As people get to know and associate with one another, those old walls of ignorant beliefs are torn down. You can't point to one church or another as to holding 'racists' beliefs when it was a whole ignorant culture that perpetuated such non-sense.
 
under74
under74 10 years ago


U74 - Burned-Over District. I think that only once in America's history could teh LDS church have ever made such an appearance and grown the way it did. I think this time in America's history was a golden age and certainly was partially responsible for Joseph Smith's question ' Which of all the churches is true?'
Really? A golden age??? Understand that the Millerites (where the JWs spawned from) came out of the District and the Fox sisters Spiritualist movement (although they were more of a gimmick)...at the same time all kinds of Utopian Societies were popping up (many in the Burned-Over District) all over. The Holy Roller movement has it's roots there as well. In looking at all of them I tend to feel they all have a lot in common. I understand it was a region full of lay-mininsters or famer-preachers and that at that time there was so much transition in the world that many looked to religion for comfort BUT wouldn't you say that the majority of the religious groups that popped up in the Burned-Over District were cultish?
And what do you think about JS introducing polygamy at Nauvoo?
 
LittleToe
LittleToe 10 years ago


A thought struck me, and I'd really like an answer to it Dave...
If a Christian-raised individual is called upon by Missionaries and the topic of the Trinity is astutely avoided so that the individual can get baptised ASAP, then the individual later finds out that this is not a LDS belief and leaves and is antagonistic due to having been "fooled", wouldn't they be classed as apostate and condemned to the lowest "hell"?
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

nope.
There are four 'general' locations:
Outer darkness: Absolute mingers - the Judas Iscariot types - i.e. I saw / know without doubt Jesus amd reject Him. A tiny group - very few can ever do this.
Telestial Kingdom: Stinkers. The rogues, murderers, bad people - the people who reject Jesus but aren't in OD.
Terrestrial Kingdom: The nice people. Everyone who lived a decent life but still reject Jesus' atonement.*
Celestial Kingdom: Those who obey God's commandments and accept the atonement.
All the three kingdoms are glorious and Jospeh Smith said that if you could see the telestial kingdom you'd feel a desire to end your life here just to get there. This world at its very best approximates the telestial kingdom.
If you don't accept the C kingdom however you have rejected Jesus' sacrifice and have to suffer the pains of hell to pay for your sins - in other words you go through what Jesus did at Gethsemane until your sins are paid.
If you left the LDS faith and critically, rejected Jesus but didn't do much wrong your likeley to qualify for Terrestrial life. Like I keep saying the LDS faith doesn't exist in heaven just as much as the born again religion doesn't either. Heaven is not a church. My goal as a missionary was to get everyone baptised by authority not simply as another LDS. In our prophcies we expect the time when other people of the house of Israel will return, led by their prophets (i.e. non LDS.) We also closely identify with the Jews (though I doubt the feeling is mutual:)
* the reason why I was suggesting that obedience is critical - can you accept Jesus if you don't do what he asked? Would Israel have died if they didn't look at the brazen serpent?
I'm going to bed - this place is way too addictive.
 
LittleToe
LittleToe 10 years ago


Which Jesus? The LDS "Jehovah" one, or Christendom's Trinitarian one?
So I accepted Christ's atonement, subsequently got baptised in spirit and in water and regularly partake of the sacrament of the Lord's supper. I also "hope" with the best of them, and do my best to keep his commandments (especially the ones concerning love).
Unless I get baptised (in this life or post-humously by proxy) by LDSs, you don't honestly expect to see me in the Celestial kingdom though, do you?
 
OldSoul
OldSoul 10 years ago


Watch out, LittleToe! He's gonna get baptized for you! AGGHHHHH!!!
(Sorry, Qcmbr. Couldn't resist. Paranoia kicking into overdrive here.)
OldSoul
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

Actually LT - I hope to see everyone there! OK that was a pat answer but honestly, its a born again phrase to claim that you can't be saved by the 'mormon' Jesus - you won't find(shouldn't! find) Mormons saying you can't be saved by the 'baptist Jesus' or the 'catholic Jesus'. I don't care whether someone truly believes Jesus is three in one, an individual or green cheese - all I care about is that they try their best to follow Him.
Where we are radically different to all christian religions save one (Catholics) is the claim to authority from a literal divine source.
I found it quite enlightening to hear the response of christians on the door when I told them about the literal building of Zion, the actual gathering of Israel, new scripture testifying that Jesus is the Christ, a modern day prophet receiving revelaion, a restoration of the Priesthood - they were more interested in proving that they were right than the possibility that what we were saying was true. To me that was like telling a rich man that there is more money in a wallet in my hand and that person saying I don't believe you so I won't look - at least have a look you wally!. I always thought that christians would be really excited to find out more about Jesus. I was really wrong. As a side note I always listen to any religious people who wish to share their views. I figure they have as much right to be 'right' as I have.
The funny thing is that often when I talked to born agains they said about how I was a child of the devil and that I was going to hell and then in the next breath said all that was needed was to confess Jesus. I'd stand at the door and think 'duh! - I'm not selling windows here.' Like I said at the top - its a born again trait to say you can only be saved by the born again Jesus.
Now the answer you really want LT - the one you are trying to get out of me: I believe everyone must be baptised by someone with actual authority - not self appointed.
Now the answer you don't expect: Does that happen outside the LDS church? Yes - we know in scripture that there are other prophets and small groups of people who have the same actual authority. Where? Not a clue.
Back to the answer you wanted: Do the Born agains have that authority. Doubt it.
 

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Topic Summary
what would your views be on mormons?.
was there much incidences where jw's and mormons would ever catch eachother while going door-to-door?.
just curious cause both of you do it and wondered if there was ever any conflict between the two..... evanescence



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Mormon's BITE model...so much like JWs! but waaay stricter and ridiculous(IMO)
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Why I like the Mormons and why they are so much nicer then the JWs.
by new boy 2 months ago
OneEyedJoe
List of false cause/effect relationships the WTS has asserted
by OneEyedJoe 2 years ago



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Mormons/LDS
by Evanescence 10 years ago 87 Replies latest 10 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

Old Soul - LT would have to be dead and a relative in the LDS church would need to submit his records (we only blanket baptise from over a hundred years ago I think.)
LT - while I hope your not ill in any way...any mormons in your family:wink:
 
carla
carla 10 years ago

Nobody brought up the sacred underwear thing. What's the deal with the special underwear one must wear? Or is that only for special occasions?
 
mormon 4 life
mormon 4 life 10 years ago

THAT THE 1..............THE CHURCH IS TRUE....
 
OldSoul
OldSoul 10 years ago


Qcmbr,
Is there something less salvagable about recently dead people? Are only dead people (more than 100 years dead) and those who choose to be baptized salvagable? I am having trouble understanding how the line of salvation is drawn.
The post I made was really just teasing with LittleToe carried over from another thread, but your reply raised these questions in my mind.
Respectfully,
OldSoul
 
LittleToe
LittleToe 10 years ago


Dave:Personally I love talking to people of all faiths, and seeing where there is commonality and where it might augment my ecelectic "pot".
Now the answer you don't expect: Does that happen outside the LDS church? Yes - we know in scripture that there are other prophets and small groups of people who have the same actual authority. Where? Not a clue.
I'ev heard that answer before, but the honest conclusion to it is that you'd still expect an individual to be baptised LDS, regardless of the alleged authority of another party, yes?
Back to the answer you wanted: Do the Born agains have that authority. Doubt it.
Which born agains? You've just contradicted your previous statement. Why do you doubt it?
I was baptised by a Minister, who had authority confered on him by a minister, who had authority confered on him by a minister, who... ad infinitum... back through the reformation, through the Catholic church and ultimately claiming its authority from the original Apostles. And yet you'd question not only my credentials but those of the "water and Spirit" baptised "authority confered" Minister who baptised me, yes?
"you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!"
 
OldSoul
OldSoul 10 years ago


LT,
You have some sort of eclectic pot? No wonder I reacted so strangely.
"Look. If I went around sayin' I was Emperor just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!"
 
jillbedford
jillbedford 10 years ago


My 16 year old mother gave me up for adoption, forced choice like we all can relate to.
I was adopted and raised as a Jehovah's Witness.
I spent many years searching for, and found my mother again at age 27. She wanted me to find her and we maintain a relationship now
She joined the Mormon Church.
In the interest of science only, how interesting is it that I was Jehovah's Witness and she was Mormon?
Something to think about isn't it?
 
LittleToe
LittleToe 10 years ago

OldSoul:
 Of the augmented kind, no less
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

Hiya.
The reason for the 100 year thing is to do with not offending people I think. We still manage to get up loads of people's noses anyhow (last time I checked the Jews gave us a right roasting.)
Would I expect you to become LDS LT. I'd love you to. Why? because I love it and purely in terms of friendship I'd like people to have what I have. But I think the import of what you are saying is would I exect you to become LDS to get a 'proper' baptism?
Ok you backed me into a corner. Yep. Your minister is probably a brilliant bloke , salt of the earth and may well trace his line of authority to the Catholic church but I don't think they have the authority either anymore(sorry any Catholics!) One thing that I am very sensitive to however, is that arrogantly proclaiming people's sincere actions such as baptism , in whatever form they chose to show it, does me and them an injustice. I want to make a distinction between what I think is desire and purpose and action.
All christian churches (with a few exceptions) have the same core idea - join us or you won't make it. I mention born agains a lot because they (and the JWS and Plymouth Brethren) were the only religious people who cared enough about their beliefs to consistently duke it out with me on the street(and I'm talking about general membership - I met one cracking Catholic who gave us a good razzle). I met lots of people who claimed that I needed to be baptised into their faith to be saved and that my path was straight to overdone toastiness. Fair enough. But what of authority - do the LDS hang onto it as justification for their existence or do they have a case?
I guess what I needed to hear from JWs, ministers, BAs, Catholics etc.. was a real honest appraisal of why they were acting with God's authority and were'nt just great people with a unique bible interpretation. I guess its the sort of feeling I'd have if I was in a large room full of people and several of those present claimed to be policemen but didn't recognise any of the others as policemen and then proceeded to start applying the laws of the land as best they saw fit and disagreeing with each other. I'd want some real legitimate claim to the title AND a good understanding of the law.
Here's a scripture I think that is fairly non contentious but makes good sense to me:
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
There was a structure set up to unify the members but since we are now thousands of competing faiths definately not unified something has gone wrong. I think their is an implicit recognition that doctrine can be interpreted differently and people can hold tenaciously to cherished beliefs - doesn't make it right though.
28 ¶ Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Paul recognised that this church at Ephesus would be struggling with some of its own members raising up followers and basically creating a new church. That is also what has happened since, to the church in general. Loads of new churches/ charismatic leaders/ reformers and so on. Did the 'grievious wolves' have authority? - probably not but their disciples would argue they did. Nothing has changed today. Would God honour a baptism performed by one without authority? Take your pick. I'd plump for probably not - I don't see any justification for being blase with any of the commandments - the OT should teach us that at least!
I think its important to check out someone's credentials before we head off into the wilderness for 40 years with them. If God never really talked to them from a burning bush it would be a real bummer and you could look back on many wasted years.
I think about this a lot and us it to critically examine my beliefs - I don't want to eat manna if I can have beer and pizza.
 
OldSoul
OldSoul 10 years ago


Qcmbr,
I don't believe anyone who claims religious authority over another human is doing so with Scriptural backing. I believe that I can Scripturally take the pegs out from under anyone on earth who lays claims to authority from God over other humans. Paul specified what the overseers were overseeing. They were to tend, or look after the flock. They did not have AUTHORITY over them, they had RESPONSIBLIITY toward them. After all, these aren't their sheep, are they? IMO, there is a BIG difference between Authority over and Responsibility toward.
Respectfully,
OldSoul
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

Hiya OldSoul - Ok could you do it to Moses? Or do you just mean modern day people? I'd be interested in what your arguements are.
 
OldSoul
OldSoul 10 years ago


Um, unless I am mistaken (always possible) Christ sort of tossed the priesthood and its attached authorities out the window. I don't read anything in the Greek Scriptures that indicates I should be subjecting myself to any of the models of religious authority evident in Israel.
Respectfully,
OldSoul
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

Would you have followed the 12 apostles?
 
OldSoul
OldSoul 10 years ago


Qcmbr,
No. I would not. And they wouldn't ask me to, so fortunately I wouldn't need to. (1 Corinthians 3:5-9)
Respectfully,
OldSoul
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

I'm missing the full import of what your saying here. I don't see any lack of structure here?
There is definately a structure in the NT.
3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:
4 But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
I'd follow a true prophet any day.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

Hey LT! Just to let you know (and to balance my arrogance) - I'd be honoured if you also wanted me to baptised by your minister. I like to think that someone else wanted me :smile:
 
LittleToe
LittleToe 10 years ago


Dave:
There is definately a structure in the NT.
In so much as Paul could argue theology with the best of them. They were one church that happened to meet in various cities. The modern-day equivalent remains the whole body of believers united to Christ, regardless of the bunker mentalities that have pretty badges. As a point in case, from a LDS perspective, wouldn't it be true to say that there are those in and out of the LDS who will reach the highest possible heaven, and those in and out who will not? Does Christ limit himself to human structures?
I'd be honoured if you also wanted me to baptised by your minister. I like to think that someone else wanted me
Doesn't this entirely miss the point of baptism? Is it really just a "nice ritual" that you've gotta do at some point because Jesus alluded to it?
On coming to faith in Christ an individual get's baptised "in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" - a simple initiation into the Christian Mystery School, identifying the individual to the "church" (i.e. body of believers, regardless of congregation or denomination).
Had my baptism in the JWs been to that simple formula I might have been content with it. As it happens all of their formulas have been corrupted and added to, and besides, their dedication is specifically to the Father with no implicit trust in the Son per se.
The water is symbolic of the inner cleasing that has already taken place, with the Holy Spirit, not merely a badge or act of superstition. Why not hedge your bets completely and get initiated as a Muslim, Hindu and Sikh?


 
under74
under74 10 years ago


Hey Q, you never answered the questions on my last post....but I suppose LT and Old Soul could be more interesting....
Jill- it is pretty weird. My mom and her parents converted when she was a teen. My grandfather was adopted and found his living siblings after conversion...none of the siblings were JW but many of their children were...also had other family members covert to mormonism. It's almost like some kind of genetic mishap makes people in my family prone to this thing...BUT THIS IS NOT SCIENTIFIC.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

Sos. U74.
Yea - you could say a lot of the religions that sprung from that period where cultish but you know what I liked about that period. Th epeople desired to know God, they wanted to go to church and to worship, they spent alot of time caring so fervently about it that they talked, walked and fought the good fight. The UK at the moment is becoming one godless little sod of mud bar the influx of muslims. I know the born agains are doing their best but the honest truth is we are losing our religion and our desire for religion as a culture and a people (blows raspberry at the cheering tetrapod.) I like it when people want to believe, I get the shivers when we collectively turn away.
Joseph Smith and polygamy. I think it was great and I'm gutted that the church wasn't strong enough to keep it up.
LT - I was offering an olive branch you foobar :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:
 
LittleToe
LittleToe 10 years ago


Dave:
 What are ya doing flinging olive branches around for - I'm enjoying this immensely.
Like Tij said, I'm not the Messiah, I'm just a very naughty boy
 

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Topic Summary
what would your views be on mormons?.
was there much incidences where jw's and mormons would ever catch eachother while going door-to-door?.
just curious cause both of you do it and wondered if there was ever any conflict between the two..... evanescence



Related Topics
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Google.ca search bar 'royal commission'
by Esse quam videri 7 months ago
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Mormons vs. Jehovah's Witnesses
by Downtowner 4 months ago
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Mormon's BITE model...so much like JWs! but waaay stricter and ridiculous(IMO)
by Batman89 2 years ago
new boy
Why I like the Mormons and why they are so much nicer then the JWs.
by new boy 2 months ago
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Mormons/LDS
by Evanescence 10 years ago 87 Replies latest 10 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

Right then - I'm feeling militant enough tonight to play:)
wouldn't it be true to say that there are those in and out of the LDS who will reach the highest possible heaven, and those in and out who will not
-absolutely. We'll(lds) still have to do the earthly work for those outside mind you - all teh baptism/sealing/giving priesthood/marrying for eternity etc...
Does Christ limit himself to human structures?
Trick Question. Christ actually set the LDS up, so we believe, so the only question that really counts here is did Jesus Christ physically return to a 14 year old boy and does He now head the church that bears His name? If not the question would be moot for a mormon because He certainly wouldn't be 'in' any LDS structures.

Doesn't this entirely miss the point of baptism? Is it really just a "nice ritual" that you've gotta do at some point because Jesus alluded to it?
No , baptism by authority is essential to inherit the Kingdom of God IMO. I just like the idea that you might care enough about my soul that you'd perhaps want me to leave my faith and share in yours - unless your agreeing with my way of thinking that we're on the same side..? Still comes down to authority for me.
I could hedge my bets but that would probably contravene 'thou shalt have no other God's before me' and guarantee my place with the unholy hotties.
 
LittleToe
LittleToe 10 years ago


Dave:
No , baptism by authority is essential to inherit the Kingdom of God IMO. I just like the idea that you might care enough about my soul that you'd perhaps want me to leave my faith and share in yours - unless your agreeing with my way of thinking that we're on the same side..? Still comes down to authority for me.
So without an LDS baptism, I won't see the kingdom of heaven??
Further, wouldn't your being baptised by my Minister friend be similar to hedging your bets and thus condemning you to unholy-hottie-ville?
I'm honestly perplexed at the similarities to the JWs.
 
under74
under74 10 years ago


Yea - you could say a lot of the religions that sprung from that period where cultish but you know what I liked about that period. Th epeople desired to know God, they wanted to go to church and to worship, they spent alot of time caring so fervently about it that they talked, walked and fought the good fight. The UK at the moment is becoming one godless little sod of mud bar the influx of muslims. I know the born agains are doing their best but the honest truth is we are losing our religion and our desire for religion as a culture and a people (blows raspberry at the cheering tetrapod.) I like it when people want to believe, I get the shivers when we collectively turn away.
Well, I tend to look at the time as (although very human) just a means for people to deal with the world transitions taking place. I'm not sure what you mean about the "influx of muslims." Most of the muslims I know aren't godless. Maybe it's not people losing religion but religion losing people.....just a thought.


Joseph Smith and polygamy. I think it was great and I'm gutted that the church wasn't strong enough to keep it up.
I don't know your sense of humor but I'll take this as a joke....still, I'm not sure how JS could be held as a prophet if his lifestyle is considered wrong by most mainstream Mormons.

Anyway, thanks for answering.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

Hi U74 - I was making reference to the Muslims as the most religious in our country (ie the Christians as a whole are losing ground - though individual groups are still thriving.)
The polygamy thing wasn't a joke! I honestly think that for the time it was a great plan and that it is a better answer than society 'allowing' mistresses and affairs. Polygamy is a long term emotional and finacial commitment to several women and children rather than what currently happens a lot around here which is short term commitment to several women and children and the state takes over the financial side of supporting the kids. Yea I'm generalising I know.
The fact that the LDS church caved due to government pressure is to me the single biggest blot on its copy book. I presume though that most here would say polygamy itself was that blot:)
I could afford another wife if she wasn't too picky.
er..that was my humour bit..
 
OldSoul
OldSoul 10 years ago


Qcmbr,
I'm missing the full import of what your saying here.
 I agree! And how refreshing it was to read that.
There is definately a structure in the NT.
No disputing it. There is structure. Evident throughout the Greek Scriptures. However, there is no inherent basis for a claim of authority simply because of the existence of structure. Is there?
Key to my point is Jesus continual assertion that the sheep were his. Well, what authority does a shepherd have over sheep that aren't his? None.
If the shepherds are shepherding someone else's sheep, and they themsleves are also sheep, then the authority belongs to the owner (Christ) and the shepherds have no authority over the sheep. Any attempt to exercise illegitimate authority over fellow sheep amounts to beating one's fellow slaves.
In my opinion. But, I am sure I can post dozens of Scriptures, in context, that demonstrate this very thing.
Respectfully,
OldSoul
 
under74
under74 10 years ago


Thanks for the honest answering Q.
Hi U74 - I was making reference to the Muslims as the most religious in our country (ie the Christians as a whole are losing ground - though individual groups are still thriving.)
Thanks for clarifying.
The polygamy thing wasn't a joke! I honestly think that for the time it was a great plan and that it is a better answer than society 'allowing' mistresses and affairs. Polygamy is a long term emotional and finacial commitment to several women and children rather than what currently happens a lot around here which is short term commitment to several women and children and the state takes over the financial side of supporting the kids. Yea I'm generalising I know. The fact that the LDS church caved due to government pressure is to me the single biggest blot on its copy book. I presume though that most here would say polygamy itself was that blot:smile:
Hmmm...I think what you're forgetting is that women have affairs too. Not all women are satisfied with one man. Don't get me wrong though I think if adults are consenting the government shouldn't intervene...and I'm not religious. I'd like to have 4 husbands (that I could divorce at any time). One to make money, another to keep house, a third to look pretty for me and the fourth just to keep me laughing My problem with polygamy is that it doesn't go both ways and also in the US FLDS and other fundie Mormon off shoots they don't have consent. Females are property and if a 13 year old girl is told to marry her uncle...that's what she's supposed to do. If a husband is pushed out of the group and told they are now the wife of so and so...that's what goes. Also, the amount of young men being pushed out of these mormon groups because they are competition to older men is astonishing and heartbreaking. From what I know (from a mormon cousin and some reading) the amount of wives you have gets you closer to the top level of heaven...is that true?
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 10 years ago

U74 - to be honest I don't know what the different fundamentalist groups preach. In all seriousness I think polygamy would be an extremelly hard law to live. I love my wife and its a whole alien mindset to think of loving another wife equally. I guess affairs etc.. often happen for excitements sake or when love is dying in one relationship so maybe its unfair of me to compare pol. with playing the field.
I think polygamy is like every other religious practise, once it goes beyond its intended purpose it gets pretty cr*ppy. I think men marrying teenagers is a big nono and the stuff you are describing is fairlt reprehensible to my westernised 2006 eyes and thinking patterns. Maybe its a good thing the LDS chose to remove themselves from that divine law.
 
under74
under74 10 years ago

Thanks for the honesty Q.
 

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Topic Summary
what would your views be on mormons?.
was there much incidences where jw's and mormons would ever catch eachother while going door-to-door?.
just curious cause both of you do it and wondered if there was ever any conflict between the two..... evanescence



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Other Preachers at my door!
by Odrade 11 years ago 10 Replies latest 11 years ago   jw friends
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Odrade
Odrade 11 years ago

This little incident cracked me up, thought I'd share...
 We live in a decent neighborhood in Suburbia, nearly all of the houses are owned, people mow their own lawns, (well everyone except US!) two or three cars per family, dogs, kids, etc. We also have an extremely lax neighborhood association that never enforces anything. You can put a 12 foot satellite dish on your roof, park a 40ft motorhome on the street and your yacht on the front lawn, and they might get around to asking you to use the RV lot sometime in the next decade.
 We get a LOT of door-to-door salesmen, solicitors, and the like coming through the neighborhood. As you can imagine, the HOA doesn't really do much about this. They're probably off towing their YACHT with their 40 ft motorhome...
 One thing I notice is that ALL of these people ring the doorbell. *BING BONG* Oh yeah, the JWs come around about once every two years. Actually they are in our neighborhood quite often because someone has a return visit on the lady 3 doors down. Don't worry, she's in no danger of converting.
 Now, some of these people I like, and some of them are just annoying. There is a DD guy who comes around a few times a year with a 5 gallon bucket full of jars of the best honey ever, beeswax candles and crafting beeswax. I always buy his stuff. I ALWAYS buy from the kid's elementary school fundraisers, and I like the OSPIRG kids too. I frequently learn something about local enviromental issues if I talk to them.
 We also get more than our fair share of preachers. About half are there to solicit money for their programs, (I'd imagine some of these are legit, some I know are not.) Sometimes we have LDS come through, I don't talk with them, and more often than not it's a smaller church knocking on doors offering "free bible study courses," or "free vacation bible days."
 Yesterday, about 1pm, my F/T Pioneer JW mother called on the phone. At the same time I answered, *BING BONG* I went to the door, answered it and this black guy in a Raider's jacket, (remember I live in Suburbia... let me amend that... WHITE suburbia...) launched into his "testimonial." It went something like this:
 "Yea, though I was los' ta drugs and booze, Ah' come unto da Lawd, and he SAVE me from my dark paf. Ah'm heah too-day collectin' fo' da ministry we do wif folk jus lak me, tryin' ta escape da life of sin and deebauchery! We do a git clean shelter, and hope dat generosity from da Lawd will motivate you TOOday to gib from yo' heart abundance! Lemme read you a text from da Lawd...." blah blah blah
 Anyways, my mom is on the line listening to this spiel, so at that point I told her I'd call her back. I hung up, with great difficulty disengaged myself from this master performer... still not sure about the "clean from the drugs" thing. LOL.
 So... I called my pioneer mom back. I decided to really muddy the waters. You know how the JWs are always going on and on about how they are the ONLY ONES doing the preaching work... conversation went like this:
 Me: Hiya mom!
 Mom: Who was that at the door
 Me: Preacher, we get them ALL the time through here. Every few weeks.
 Mom: Well, they're just looking for money.
 Me: That one was, but mostly they just offer free bible study courses or read scriptures.
 Mom: Well what church was he from?
 Me: I don't know, he didn't leave a tract. Mostly they leave a tract or a magazine...
 Mom: *LONG silence* Well, we NEVER get anyone knocking on our door. (because of course, she's insinuating that there IS no one else who does ministry)
 Me: Ah, your apartment manager must do a better job of running them off before they get to your door.
 Mom: *more silence*

 LMAO!!! Just thought it was funny.
 O
 
luna2
luna2 11 years ago

LMAO! Poor Mom. Not a whole lot she could say to that, huh?
 
katiekitten
katiekitten 11 years ago


My dad lives in Miami Dade and he says they come round trying to find spanish speakers only. They knock the door ask you if you speak spanish and arent interested if your not hispanic / cuban. (correct me if im wrong, im only repeating him, I dont actually know this for myself).
I quite like the idea of a dub getting hold of your door handle and closing your own door on you while saying 'im sorry im not interested in you'.
 
Euphemism
Euphemism 11 years ago


LOL, Odrade! Especially at the transcription...
Katie... for all I know, that could have been the Witnesses. Foreign-language congregations will sometimes do 'surveys'... by which they mean, just knocking on doors looking for people who speak their language.
 
drwtsn32
drwtsn32 11 years ago

LOL...too funny. I have been in my house for four years now and only once has someone come by..and it was to invite people in the area to a nearby church. Just said "no thanks" and he left.
 
carla
carla 11 years ago

I put up sign on my door- NO SOLICITING OF ANY KIND- religious, youths dumped in suburbs, book sales, etc...
 
Xandria
Xandria 11 years ago


Orade:
I live in a secure building that kinda puts a kibosh on peddling like that. But, I have ran into people in the past, like that. I am nice, but when they get militant or extremely pushy.. then watch out!
I had two, in one year when we lived in AZ. They would not take no for an answer. One was very funny. He went on and on. Got mad when I wouldn't purchase anything and became abusive. Bad mistake since, I was watering the lawn at the time.  Can anyone say drowned rat? There was not much he could do since he was on my turf, yelling and all the neighbors had come out to see WTH was going on.
Geez! you would have thought they were selling Amway.. (NOWAY!) products.
X.

X.
 
Netty
Netty 11 years ago

This is too funny! The witnesses always like to BRAG about how they are the only ones doing the door to door preaching work. They sure hate hearing that anyone else could possibly be doing it too.
 
Odrade
Odrade 11 years ago

Ugh, my mom is now calling me three times a day! I don't know why... thought that conversation would have been enough to make her want to avoid me for a few days. LOL!
 
Euphemism
Euphemism 11 years ago

Odrade... it's like the advice they used to give sisters who were being hit on by non-Witness guys... just keep anti-Witnessing to her until she leaves you alone!
 
Odrade
Odrade 11 years ago

LMAO!!! *hangs head in shame* I used to do this to get "worldly" guys to leave me alone. It works! (Duh, no one wants to date the crazy bible girl, except equally crazy mis-fits.)
 

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Do JWs have any deep doctrine..
by Qcmbr 11 years ago 16 Replies latest 11 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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Qcmbr
Qcmbr 11 years ago

In the LDS church we have our 'deep doctrine' that is not preached from the stand and is often little more than pure speculation on what one prophet is supposed to have said etc.. here's a brief list of some of the things we might discuss outside of church...
Was Jesus married?
Where is the hill Cumorah (place in the Book of Mormon)?
Who are the 144000?
Where are the lost tribes of Israel?
Where is the city of Enoch?
What will be the events that will usher in the millenium?
Where does your spirit go when you sleep?
What is the urim and thummim?
How many people where in the ark / Jaredite barges / Nephi's boat?
Who was already on the american continent when the nephites arrived?
and so on...
Do the JWs have similar favourite areas of discussion that more often than not goes well off the beaten track?
 
IP_SEC
IP_SEC 11 years ago


will we be nekkid in the new system? (my favorut)
will we populate other planets after the 1000 yearz?
if god created everything how come we have mosqitos and fleas and such?
Oh will the 144,000 be memorialized in a list so we know they arent in the 2nd death if we never see them again?
 
Satanus
Satanus 11 years ago


Their bogus chronological basis for 1914 is fairly deep.
They have made the ransom very complex, what w the 2 classes, one in the new covenant, the other not.
The incarnation of michael the arch angel is unexplainable by them.
S
 
IP_SEC
IP_SEC 11 years ago


but really cucumb, any speculation is highly discouraged, as only the Governing Body can speculate with impunity.

*** w68 5/1 p. 271 Making Wise Use of the Remaining Time ***
4 According to reliable Bible chronology Adam was created in the year 4026 B.C.E., likely in the autumn of the year (AAAhhh what speculation).
, at the end of the sixth day of creation. Then God brought the animals to man to name. Yet, of Adam, Genesis states these words of Jehovah: ?It is not good for the man to continue by himself.? (Gen. 2:18) Adam would realize this lonely condition very quickly (AAAhhh what speculation).
, perhaps in just a few days or a few weeks (AAAhhh what speculation).. He would realize he needed another earthling with whom he could communicate, share his experiences, and his life. Nor would his naming the animals take an unduly long time. (AAAhhh what speculation). The basic animal kinds could have been relatively quickly named(AAAhhh what speculation).
for when such basic kinds were taken into the ark in Noah?s day, it did not involve millions of beasts, but perhaps only a few hundred basic kinds. Thus, Adam?s naming of the animals and his realizing that he needed a counterpart would have occupied only a brief time after his creation. (AAAhhh what speculation). Since it was also Jehovah?s purpose for man to multiply and fill the earth, it is logical that he would create Eve soon after Adam, perhaps just a few weeks (AAAhhh what speculation). or months (AAAhhh what speculation). later in the same year, 4026 B.C.E. After her creation, God?s rest day, the seventh period, immediately followed.
 
silentWatcher
silentWatcher 11 years ago

>> Where is the hill Cumorah
okay, maybe this shows my ignorance, but wasn't Hill Comorah where Joesph Smith found the tablets containing the Book of Mormon.
To the topic: How old Adam was when Eve was created. Tied to 1975. Some SIILL cling to that, as if it means anything.
 
Qcmbr
Qcmbr 11 years ago

Hi SW - the hill Cumorah may potentially refer to two hills - one in New York and the other ...still not really of much interest to you guys:smile:
 
A Paduan
A Paduan 11 years ago

theocratic warfare - lying as one sees advantageous at the time
 
PointBlank
PointBlank 11 years ago

Pardon the expression, but the only thing 'deep' about the JW's is the 'ka-ka' they wade around in and try to shove down people's throats.
 
heathen
heathen 11 years ago


Yes umm , how to tell which items to avoid at garage sales so the demonz don't get ya .
they discuss which elders are anal jerk offs .
How to fake hours on their field service time slips
 
Golf
Golf 11 years ago

Will deep pockets do?

Golf
 
Narkissos
Narkissos 11 years ago


As a non-English I have a lexical question:
Is it common English usage to equate "deep" with "complex" or "farfetched"? Or is it just cultic speech?
As far as I can remember I always found it strange what JWs used to call "deep" ("profond," in French): chronological issues, typologies, etc. The deepest to me is superficially very simple (e.g. the Sermon on the Mount, the Gospel of John): those kinds of words you understand immediately, yet you hear them differently each time you come back to them. Is it just me?
 
LittleToe
LittleToe 11 years ago


Didier:I think he means "private doctrine".
Some would view the WTS eschatology to be deep (albeit flawed), but since it's discussed (?) in public meetings, I don't think it falls into the category of what he's asking about.
Q:IP_SECs original response would be what you're looking for. The WTS doesn't really encourage speculation, though - it speaks out of both sides of it's mouth, on the subject, prefering to be the final authority on all thoughts.
Are you telling us that there are doctrines that you don't openly discuss with potential converts?
The JWs bide their time on certain things, but they are unlikely to withold anything.
 
Narkissos
Narkissos 11 years ago


I think he means "private doctrine".
I understand, but I was (and still am) wondering whether this use of the adjective "deep" sounds normal or cultic to English speakers.
 
Crumpet
Crumpet 11 years ago


narkissos - I didn't understand the question at first and read it to mean complex, but the explaination of what latterdaysaints interpret as deep doctrine helped me to understand.
My answer to the question I thought was being asked - would be no IMO very little JW doctrine turns out to be anything other than shallow and that would not stand up to any depth of scrutiny.
 
Honesty
Honesty 11 years ago


Very deep... as in:
The individual JW may be in some deep doo doo one day if they don't repent and start serving Christ instead of a bunch of old apostates who live in ivory towers.
 
LittleToe
LittleToe 11 years ago

Didier:
 I might perhaps use the word "deep" synonymously with "profound".
Unless the LDS use it as part of their own jargon, I suspect it's use has been misplaced, in this thread.
With so many words to choose from, it's no wonder we occasionally screw up
 
Narkissos
Narkissos 11 years ago


Thx Crumpet & Ross,
"Profound" is better known as a faux ami by English-French translators. It is not necessarily profond = "deep" as opposed to "shallow".
Complex, farfetched and shallow is a good assessment of JW doctrine to me.
I know very little about LSD LDS, but from my limited contacts with some of their missionaries I have noticed (1) a similar "technical" bend in their doctrine but (2) a little more emphasis on "spiritual experience".
I remember once a good joke played to me by a man I had called on door-to-door preaching. He gave me an appointment one night, and at the appointed time I came with another Bethel fellow. He was not at home, but had given the same appointment to three LDS female missionaries... so we spent two hours or so discussing (half-French half-English) with the girls on his doorstep, to the amazement of the neighbours. What struck me is that they insisted of the necessity of praying for a "sign" or "testimony" to know which was the "true religion," which was quite different from the JW way ("study"). One of them told the experience of her grandfather who had a sort of personal illumination before embracing the Mormon faith.
 

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I wonder what JWs are saying about...
by kaykay_mp 11 years ago 4 Replies latest 11 years ago   social current
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kaykay_mp
kaykay_mp 11 years ago


Pope John Paul II's death?
If anyone has been to the meetings lately and if any of the brothers and sisters (ha!) had any comments about it, please share them here.
I've noticed that other religions had nothing but the utmost respect for the Pope, especially at his time of death. I'm really surprised that the LDS had something uplifting to say as well--even Protestants!
I could just imagine what the JWs had to say about it. Something scathing, like, "Today we see an era of Christendom come to an end with the death of her leader, Pope John Paul II. Too bad that he will see all of his efforts come to naught when he stands before the Almighty Creator, Jehovah, to be judged!"

laters
kaykay_mp
 
mrsjones5
mrsjones5 11 years ago


yeah i was in a jw chatroom a couple of days ago and the jws were saying something similar to that. No respect for life or the the death of a fellow human being no matter what his title was. said some silly crap about the pope was going to be judged by jehovah the sock puppet god for not telling the real "truth".
Josie
 
kaykay_mp
kaykay_mp 11 years ago


some silly crap about the pope was going to be judged by jehovah the sock puppet god for not telling the real "truth".
at least the Pope didn't change his views on issues like sexuality and divorce, like a, ahem, certain religion that we all know of...
that's what I appreciated about the Pope. Yes, times may be changing, but he realized that it wouldn't do his faith any justice if it changed with the times.

laters
kaykay_mp
 
Preston
Preston 11 years ago


I could just imagine what the JWs had to say about it. Something scathing, like, "Today we see an era of Christendom come to an end with the death of her leader, Pope John Paul II. Too bad that he will see all of his efforts come to naught when he stands before the Almighty Creator, Jehovah, to be judged!"
That's pretty much how it is, you've got it pat KayKay....what a loving religion, about as hartwarming as a Jack Chick tract....TURN IN YOUR TIME!...ugh
- Preston
 
AuntieJane
AuntieJane 11 years ago

Just for curiosity, I went to several major Protestant websites, Methodist, Lutheran, Presbyterian. Found very warm messages about the death of the Pope on each. But SURPRIZE SURPRIZE, not a word on the Jehovah Witness site, or I guess it is the Watchtower Bible & Track Sosassity Site.
 

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False Religion
by UnDisfellowshipped 13 years ago 13 Replies latest 13 years ago   watchtower bible
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UnDisfellowshipped
UnDisfellowshipped 13 years ago


Below is a list of "Christian" Religions and Teachers which, based on what I have read in the Scriptures, ARE NOT teaching Biblical Truth.
I welcome all questions and comments.
Jehovah's Witnesses
Roman Catholics
Mormons (Latter-Day Saints; LDS)
Unification Church (Moonies)
7th Day Adventists
Oneness Pentecostals
Christian Science
Trinity Broadcasting Network (TBN)
International Church of Christ (Oahu Church of Christ)
Christadelphians
Iglesia ni Christo
Universal World Church (Hawaii Fellowship)
True Jesus Church
House of Yahweh
Institute of Divine Metaphysical Research
Benny Hinn
Arnold Murray
Reinhard Bonnke
Kenneth Copeland
Jesse Duplantis
TB Joshua
Tommy Tenney
Rod Parsley
Fred Prices
Dr. Christian Harfouche
Bishop Spong
Robert Schuller
Norman Vincient Peale
Rodney Browne
Mike Murdock
John Avanzini
Creflo Dollar
I am sure there are many, Many, MANY more that I have missed.
 
barry
barry 13 years ago


Dear Undisfellowshipped,
 You must be quite an authority to know about all those churches. Im a 7 day Adventist and I wonder what type of 7 day Adventist you beleive doesnt preach the gospel. Some groups in the Adventist church are called catholic adventists because they beleive just like the catholics others do beleive the protestant gospel of righteousness by faith just as the protestant reformers did. Any discrepancies in teaching between denominations are covered by the blood of christ and the real church is all of those who trust in the merits of christ irrespective of there denomination. Barry
Edited by - barry on 30 December 2002 5:5:10
 
Matty
Matty 13 years ago


Biblical "truth" cannot be defined clearly else there would only be one Christian religion. So you believe that have all the answers? Well then that's great for you, I'm glad you are happy in your faith.
You must agree though that all the religions and people on your list consider that they have "truth" as well.
 
UnDisfellowshipped
UnDisfellowshipped 13 years ago


Hello Barry,
The way that I determined the False Religions was by reading several different Websites which claimed to show the beliefs of different Religions, and comparing those beliefs with the Scriptures.
Here is one of the Websites that I got some of the 7th Day Adventist information from: http://www.macgregorministries.org/seventh_day_adventists/sda_index.html
I truly had no intention of misrepresenting 7th Day Adventists beliefs.
Could you please post an overview of what 7th Day Adventists believe -- because I definitely want to make sure that the information I have about 7th Day Adventists is correct.
If my info is wrong, I will immediately edit and remove 7th Day Adventists from the list above.
Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 30 December 2002 6:20:29
Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 30 December 2002 6:22:35
 
mike047
mike047 13 years ago


UN: Who, in your opinion, IS teaching biblical "TRUTH"???

mike
 
LittleToe
LittleToe 13 years ago


UnDF'd:
I made that mistake, in taking for granted what SDA believe, before chatting to Barry. I believed what the JW's had told me, and the few details I'd gleaned from one site. It appears there a a few flavours of this denomination.
Barry:
I'd appreciate a run down of this, too, and it seems that you are best placed to do that
 
Truth2Me
Truth2Me 13 years ago


When I was a Witness I worked with a guy who was a 7th Day Adventist and he interestingly enough, was close friends with a number of Witnesses, had toured Bethel I believe, and he had attended meetings and associated with JWs for more years then I've been alive. One of the things that stood out, I thought, about his congregation was their view of the Sabbath and the strictness with which they hold it dear to themselves. My friend was a deacon in the SDA Church, but he didn't agree with some practices in his Church. He was openminded when talking with his Witness firends, but he felt that the Society was off base with the blood doctrine.
From my own research and from the support group I go to, it seems to me that EVERY congregation from ANY demomination has at least one practice or tendency or belief that may be considered abberational (depends on who you ask), but that doesn't mean that the particular religon or demonimation is bad...historically it's when others view a particular congregation of belivers as being way off base that they are no longer considered abberational but a cult....it all depends on the perspective and beliefs of the time.
I've come to the conclusion that there is no "perfect congregation" there's something wrong with every religion and congregation within, I think that God uses everyone seeking to serve him....but many get lead astray in that attempt. I know that God blessed me when I was a Catholic, when I was Epsicapalean (SP), as a Born-Again Chrisitain, and the later when I was a Witness and he's still blessing my efforts to serve him now too. "Try you best, and God will bless". hey that rymes.
Truth
 
logical
logical 13 years ago


i'll make it easier for you
here is a list of those religions that DO do stuff properly:
(end of list)
 
Carmel
Carmel 13 years ago


Logical,
That was exhaustive and truely comprehensive. Perhaps someone should do a brief synopsis of your detailed list so that the rest of us don't weary of reading and get eye strain.
caveman who may disagree but appreciates brevity and to-the-pointness
 
barry
barry 13 years ago

Dear Undisfellowshiped,
 That site you gave me is actually very factual and I would agree with the majority of the conclusions there but it represents Traditional Adventists. The Church is actually divided between Traditionals, Evangelicals and Theologically liberal groups the Evangelicals can be divided into two groups. An artical by the Christian Research Institute "From Controversy to Crisis is a good read http://web2.airmail.net/billtod/crisda.txt . A link for the official teachings of SDAs is http://brooklawn.org/Beliefs.htm and as an evangelical Adventist my main departure from this document revolves around the heading "Christs Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary" it is interesting to note that the witnesses copyied this doctrine from the Adventists the Adventist version being the date 1844 the witness version 1914. The reason for my dissention here is it interferres with the gospel and is the root of the Adventist perfectionism taught by the traditionals. Barry
 
pr_capone
pr_capone 13 years ago

LMAO @ logical
 
Gig
Gig 13 years ago


Obviously mankind can't agree on everything, that's when the one true religion kicks in. No self-professing Christian should allow themselves to judge others. If they don't like how some people praise and worship, then they shouldn't attend there. But they certainly shouldn't go around saying those people aren't saved or are bad unchristian people. The Bible emphasizes love above all things. It hopes and endures all things. I personally believe any sectarian (we're saved - you're not) churches are wrong to believe and teach that, so that's why I don't go there. Still should love them, even if they are our enemies.
Look at it this way, if everybody just did the same thing...then how would we ever improve? It takes differences to realize the importance of the Christian common ground.
 
UnDisfellowshipped
UnDisfellowshipped 13 years ago


Gig said:

No self-professing Christian should allow themselves to judge others. If they don't like how some people praise and worship, then they shouldn't attend there.
I agree.

But they certainly shouldn't go around saying those people aren't saved or are bad unchristian people.
I did not state anywhere in this Thread whether or not anyone was saved.

The Bible emphasizes love above all things.
Yes, but love without truth?

Still should love them, even if they are our enemies.
I agree completely. I have love for everyone.
If a certain Church or Organization teaches variations on minor issues, I have no problem.
However, the Bible teaches that Christians are to warn others about people who teach things which contradict the essential Biblical Truths.
Do you agree that it is a good idea to warn people about the Jehovah's Witnesses?
 
barry
barry 13 years ago

Many of the confessions of faith held by various segments of the Christian community have described the true church in the language of the Nicene Creed [fourth century] as the 'one , holy,catholic and apostolic church'. The attributes of the church presented in this formula are biblical concepts.
 During the Protestant Reformation of the sixteenth century, controversy arose over the identity of Gods true church. One of the papacys major arguements against the Reformers was that the Church of Rome was the one, holy, catholicand apostolic church. Protestants ,of course denied Rome's claim. But how could one test the claims of opposing religious bodies to be the 'true church'?
 Rome for example, interpreted these attributes in institutional terms. 'Unity meant lockstep conformity to the wishes of the hierarchical Roman structure. 'Catholicity' meant the propagation and maintenance of a formal, worldwide organization. 'Holicity' was defined as submission to the teaching of a succession of Roman bishops who claimed to wear the mantle of Peter.
 The Reformers , however contended that the attributes of the church could not be properly understood apart from the gospel of Jesus Christ. The church's real unity, holiness, catholicity and apostolicity, they said, were all rooted in Gods great saving act on Calvary. Therefore, the identity of the true church could be judged by whether or not the marks of the pure preaching of the gospel and the proper administration of baptism and the lords supper [by which the gospel is portrayed] were present in the community. This gospel alone would produce the attributes by which the true church can be known.
The Reformers had recovered a vital truth . The New Testament teaches that the attributes of the true church are soteriological rather than institutional. The church is one because the atonement of Christ has broken down the wall that once separated human beings according to class, race and sex. The church is holy because Christs death has purchased and set apart those who beleive the Gospel, to be Gods chosen people. The church is catholic [ie. universal] because Christs blood has washed away the sins of the whole world and because this gospel is now preached to every nation, kindred, tongue and people. The church is apostolic because its faith and life are grounded soley on the testimony of the apostleswhom Christ appointed to witness and proclaim his saving work
 

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Can JWs attend other churches?
by SusanHere 13 years ago 20 Replies latest 13 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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SusanHere
SusanHere 13 years ago


I have an odd situation that came up during a recent visit by my long-time JW sister. On Sunday she agreed to attend our meetings (LDS) with us "to see how other churches do things". I was totally blown away. Isn't that majorly forbidden? Or has that changed? Or was it never forbidden but merely a conscience thing? I didn't dare ask her.
What I'm hoping here is that she FINALLY is reaching a level of discomfort in her JW lifestyle, and may be opening up a tiny crack in that armor that's kept her walking right down the centerline of the JW path for decades now. Maybe being safely in another state, where nobody knew her, she took a chance?
Any opinions would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Susan
 
metatron
metatron 13 years ago


Except for weddings and funerals, this is a no-no. If she is out of state and away
from prying eyes, I think that may be the best explanation. Also, I think the depression
and ennui of being a Witness is quietly taking it's toll.
Doing this in your own neighborhood will likely get you made the subject of a judicial
committee.
metatron
 
Funchback
Funchback 13 years ago


Your sister is definitely violating WT policy.
But, that's not a bad thing.


 
dsgal
dsgal 13 years ago

When I was new to the JWs I was told that I shouldn't even go to the Weight Watcher's meeting that was held in a local church because it might stumble somebody.I can't imagine that they would tolerate going there to actually attend a service.I don't believe your sister would be interested in going there unless she were having doubts.
 
Xander
Xander 13 years ago



Except for weddings and funerals, this is a no-no
Ehhh?
Last I heard, this was a no-no even FOR weddings and funerals. Well...at least, it's a 'conscience matter'. You know. Only between you and 'god'. And the judicial committee formed due to a self-righteous pioneer snitch 'being stumbled by your actions'.

Maybe being safely in another state, where nobody knew her, she took a chance?
That may well be. Did she talk to you about it afterward? Ask about things that were mentioned?
If not, it may be she just went on a hunch. Her faith IS in doubt, so she just wanted to verify the false teachings of 'worldly' religions for herself (to prove to herself she had the truth).
If she DID talk to you some about it afterward....well, I'd call that a VERY positive sign.
With JWs, no news tends to be bad news, so....I think a lot hangs on what conversations you've had since.
 
Funchback
Funchback 13 years ago

While I began to doubt, I decided to read CofC. Then, at a point in the book, I was intrigued to know what the SDAs believed. I wanted to see their similarities to the JWs. I did an on-line research. Perhaps your sister has read something that intrigued her about the SDAs.
 
Wolfgirl
Wolfgirl 13 years ago


Yeah, it's forbidden even for weddings and funerals, or at least it was. We didn't go to my great-gran's funeral coz of that; only to the little service in the funeral home. I've never gone to another church, and doubt I ever will. My husband is athiest, and I'm agnostic.
Your sister is definitely violating policy...wonder what made her start to doubt?
 
Scorpion
Scorpion 13 years ago


Hopefully your sister won't jump out of the frying pan into the fire.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=Mormonism&btnG=Google+Search
Scorpion
 
Nathan Natas
Nathan Natas 13 years ago


WATCHTOWER 7/1/1993 CHRISTIANS AND HUMAN SOCIETY TODAY
No Ecumenism
17 Two other complaints made against Jehovah's Witnesses are that they refuse to take part in the ecumenical movement and that they engage in what is termed "aggressive proselytizing." Both of these reproaches were also flung at the early Christians. Christendom, with her Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant components, is undeniably a part of this world. Like Jesus, Jehovah's Witnesses "are no part of the world." (John 17:14) How could they ally themselves through interfaith movements with religious organizations that promote unchristian conduct and beliefs?
18 Who can justifiably criticize Jehovah's Witnesses for believing, as did the early Christians, that they alone are practicing the true religion? Even the Catholic Church, while hypocritically claiming to cooperate with the ecumenical movement, proclaims: "We believe that this one true religion continues to exist in the Catholic and Apostolic Church, to which the Lord Jesus entrusted the task of spreading it among all men when he said to the apostles: 'Go therefore and make disciples of all nations.'" (Vatican Council II, "Declaration on Religious Liberty") Apparently, though, such belief is not sufficient to infuse Catholics with indefatigable zeal in going forth to make disciples.
 
JG
JG 13 years ago

My wife goes to church with me and the elders hate it but I am the head of the house and If the kids don't go then they will never see the inside of a KH. She goes with the kids. We'll see how long that lasts before the elders tell her she can't go. It'll bite em in the arse cause she has a little prob with authority figures telling her what to do.
 
joannadandy
joannadandy 13 years ago


I think it is up to the individual. "Making the Truth Your Own" and all that crap you know. How can they make it their own unless you let them shop around. HOWEVER--I don't think they really encourage people to go to other churches. I know for a fact I was not encouraged, but I went anyway, and dealt with questions later. I know it bugged my parents, but they knew I was all about gathering as much experience as possible and they are used to that by now from me. However we kept it hush hush from people in the KH because they did not approve at all.
While I don't think there is a doctrine that explicitly says: "Thou shalt not go to another church" It's pretty commonly thought of "Why would you want to? We have True Worship right here." And I think those that do go investigate probably catch a lot of flack about it.
 
Beans
Beans 13 years ago


Metatron:
Except weddings and funerals! What a crock, my Dad said he would not have attended my wedding had it been in a church.
Beans
Canadian Overbeer
 
crownboy
crownboy 13 years ago


A Witness can be dissfellowshipped for attending a religious service other than the JW's, so your sister was definitely breaking Society policy, Susan.
As for attending weddings and funerals, it's not outright banned, but the Watchtower looks down on it big time. See these two threads for discussions on a recent article in the Watchtower about it:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=25481&site=3
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=25108&site=3

BTW Scorpion, SusanHere is an LDS .
 
Scorpion
Scorpion 13 years ago



T O P I C R E V I E W
crownboy
BTW Scorpion, SusanHere is an LDS

I figured that by what she said. It doesn't hurt to see both side of the coin. I am glad I did.
Scorpion
 
TheOldHippie
TheOldHippie 13 years ago

Wolfgirl and Crownboy, who state that "Yeah, it's forbidden even for weddings and funerals", are mistaken. It is not "forbidden". I don't like the word "forbidden", because one has one's own free will, but that's another thing. Attending funerals and weddings are not considered a wrongdoing by others, never have I heard one comment about it, and those who have, must have encountered those lovely easily stumbled ones.
 
Satanus
Satanus 13 years ago


Here are some wt quotes regarding church funerals.
---------
*** w70 3/15 191-2 Questions from Readers ***
黜 May  dedicated  Christians  attend  church  funerals  of  other  religious  organizations?-C. S., U.S.A.
Some Christians may feel obligated to attend a church funeral because of a debt of gratitude, because a close relative is involved or due to pressures from an unbelieving mate. But before doing so each one should consider the various factors involved and the possible alternatives. While doing so is not forbidden by the Christian congregation, such a course is certainly fraught with dangers and problems.
First of all, it is well to remember that a church funeral is not held primarily to afford friends an opportunity to console the bereaved family. Usually that is done in the funeral parlor beforehand or by visiting the family in their home. The church funeral is really a religious service. It therefore is likely to involve a sermon advocating such unscriptural ideas as the immortality of the soul and that all good people go to heaven. It may also involve unscriptural practices such as making the sign of the cross and most likely the joining in united prayer with a priest or minister of another religion. Of course, a Christian could not take part in such, in view of the command at Revelation 18:4.
In this regard Japanese funerals represent a real test for dedicated Christian wives with unbelieving husbands. If they attend the funeral, their name is called out and they are expected to go up and offer incense and a prayer to the dead. So, many of such Japanese Christians have decided that it is better not to attend these funerals.
Some dedicated Christians have attended church funerals because they wanted to stay close to the immediate family and support them. So they went to the funeral parlor, to the church funeral and then even to the grave. They might have been able to do all that without personally committing any false religious act. There are, of course, spiritual hazards in going to any place of false worship.
True, a Christian wife whose husband is an unbeliever and who wants her to attend a church funeral might look to the example of Naaman. He was the Syrian general who was cured of leprosy by bathing himself seven times in the Jordan River at the command of the prophet Elisha. Because of this miraculous cure Naaman was determined never to worship any other god than Jehovah. But that would be a hard thing for him to do because he was still in the service of his king. He helped the king get around and so would have to go with him into the house of the pagan god Rimmon. He might even have to help the king bow down. So he asked that Jehovah God forgive him and not hold this against him. Naaman, who had become a true worshiper of Jehovah, was not himself worshiping this false god; he was only there under orders.-2 Ki. 5:1-19.
And so with the Christian wife who has an unbelieving husband. If her husband insisted that on a certain occasion she go with him to a church funeral of a relative or family friend she might feel that she could act in a way similar to that in which Naaman did-be present on that occasion but not share in any acts of false religion. But whether she went would be up to her to decide. She would have to resolve the conflict between respect for her husbands wishes and obedience to Jehovah and the dictates of her conscience, trained by Gods Word.-1 Pet. 3:16.
Yes, her conscience would be involved. Why? Because others might see her, one of Jehovahs witnesses, entering the church, and they might be stumbled. She would therefore have to consider that possibility. As the apostle Paul wrote: "Make sure of the more important things, so that you may be flawless and not be stumbling others up to the day of Christ."-Phil. 1:10.
Better it would be if such a wife tried to explain her position to her husband. She would do well to pick a time when he was relaxed and in a good frame of mind, taking a lesson from Queen Esther, and then tactfully try to explain why she felt she could not attend such a church funeral. Among other things, she could point out that if she attended and did not take part in the ritual it might be very embarrassing to others, and especially to her husband. So an unbelieving husband might agree, out of love for his wife, respect for her religious scruples and a desire to avoid embarrassment.-Esther 5:1-8.
But might one offend the bereaved family by not attending? Only if one ignored the death entirely. One would not need to do that. A person could do things to show that he was sympathetic and interested in helping. He could go to the funeral parlor beforehand, express condolences to the family and offer practical help. A person could bring over food if need be, or cook a meal there for the family, or watch the children, relieving the adults of that responsibility temporarily. Then the family would not think that the person was unloving just because he did not attend the church funeral.
Thus there is no need for a Christian to feel obligated to go to a church funeral of another religious organization, where there may be the temptation to give in to pressure and follow the crowd when everyone else is performing some false religious act. Thus also the danger of performing an act of apostasy and displeasing Jehovah God can be avoided. But each one must decide for oneself on the basis of circumstances and ones own conscience.
*** w70 3/1 131 Bible Truth About the Dead Gives Hope ***
 It may be that, when faced with such a need for comfort, you offer the same expressions of condolence that you have heard offered by clergymen at funeral services. It is true that many people look to their church for comfort in time of sorrow. But many are plunged into a deeper sense of loss by what they have been taught to believe about death.

*** w80 3/15 7 Do You Honor the Dead? ***
 In all matters pertaining to the services for the dead, it is vital to conform to what is true. Hence, Christians avoid anything that even remotely resembles ancestor worship or a belief in "departed spirits." Godly persons manifest faith in the resurrection and determination to praise Jehovah by engaging in worship that is not defiled by any form of falsehood.John 4:23, 24; Jas. 1:27.
*** km 3/97 7 Question Box ***
 A brother certainly would not share with a clergyman in conducting an interfaith service nor in any funeral conducted in a church of Babylon the Great.
*** w95 12/1 22 A Hundred Years Old and Going Strong ***
Facing Up to Trials
Soon after I accepted the truth, my mother passed away, and I had to return to North Carolina for her funeral. I felt that I could not in good conscience attend the services that would be conducted inside the Methodist church. Hence I phoned my father before making the trip and asked him to keep the coffin at the funeral home. He agreed, but when I got there, they were on their way to the church, where they thought that I would surely join them.
Well, I did not, and this caused quite a stir in my family. Though my sister Edna and I had always been close, after Moms funeral she would not talk to me.
*** w80 12/15 28 Our Five Decades of Integrity-keeping ***
 We were so deeply affected by this terrible loss that I do not know how we managed to make arrangements for the funeral, for even in this we had to contend with the Catholic Church. Obviously, we wanted a civil funeral, and for that we had to obtain clearance from the local parish priest. With a document proving we were Jehovahs Witnesses that hurdle was overcome.
*** w77 6/1 346 Mourning and Funerals-For Whom? ***
 Nor can it be said that a funeral service is somewhat like a sacrament that bestows virtue upon the deceased. True, most church members of Christendom would view with horror the prospect of a burial without a church service. Thus the Roman Catholic Church has various kinds of Masses for this very purpose. These may contain blessings for the deceased and are claimed to help a soul in purgatory. However, all such practices have no Scriptural backing, for Gods Word makes clear that the dead are unconscious and remain so until the resurrection.Eccl. 9:5, 10.
*** w67 8/15 491-2 Limping upon Two Opinions ***
 What makes the situation today most urgent is that God has made it plain that the time of his execution of judgment upon "Babylon the Great," the world empire of false religion, is at the door. This is no time to be limping upon two different opinions. The warning from heaven for our day is: "Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues." (Rev. 18:4) There is no time for dallying. God will no more spare the organizations of false religion than he spared the glorious temple built by Solomon at Jerusalem.
And it is not only in the larger matters involving active support of Great Babylons religions that you must be on guard. Some of the smaller matters are those that appear harmless and yet do much to reveal where your heart is. Lots wife probably thought it could do no harm just to look back at Sodom. Yet she perished.-Gen. 19:26; Luke 17:32.
Some parents, though no longer members of a Babylonish church system, feel it is all right to send their children to Sunday school in one of those systems. They imagine that any Bible stories they will hear there will do them no harm. They overlook the danger that the foundation for some false doctrine may well be laid in their young minds and that the youngsters are being exposed to association with those who conform to Babylonish rites and religious duties.
Then, again, there are some who feel they can personally attend Christendoms religious services from time to time just to keep up with what is going on or to please some worldly relative or acquaintance. Yet, the apostle Paul, following his conversion to the true faith, publicly denounced interfaith attitudes: "Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what sharing do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what fellowship does light [true Bible teaching] have with darkness [superstition and human tradition]. . . . And what agreement does Gods temple have with idols? For we [the apostle and fellow anointed Christians who abide by Gods Word] are a temple of a living God . . . "Therefore get out from among them, and separate yourselves," says Jehovah, "and quit touching the unclean thing.""-2 Cor. 6:14-17.
To still others it may seem a small thing to give time and attention to reading literature put out by Babylons false religions. Perhaps they feel strong enough not to be easily moved from their stand for Bible truth. Nevertheless, they will probably wonder why they do not get the same clear-cut understanding and the same positive attitude as others who are zealous in the worship of the true God. The fact is that they lack the wholeheartedness that is pleasing to Jehovah, and so cannot expect to enjoy his fullest blessing. They are in danger of developing a limp in their thinking.
Edited by - saintsatan on 19 September 2002 4:23:54
 
Satanus
Satanus 13 years ago


Here is a quote about church weddings.
----------
*** w74 12/15 766-7 Questions from Readers ***
QuestionsfromReaders
What is the view of Jehovahs witnesses toward attending the wedding of a worldly acquaintance or relative?
In the case of minors who contemplate attending, the final decision rests with the parents. Otherwise it is a matter for personal decision, with each Christian being willing to bear his own responsibility. However, there are Scriptural principles and a wide variety of circumstances that should be considered.
The wedding ceremony may be conducted in a religious building and by a clergyman. This would make it quite different from a purely civil ceremony. A true Christian could not conscientiously join or participate in any prayers or religious exercises that he knew to be contrary to Bible teaching. Nor is he interested to see how close he can come to apostate acts without overstepping the line. He is under obligation to heed the Scriptural command: "Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? . . . Or what portion does a faithful person have with an unbeliever? . . . Therefore get out from among them, and separate yourselves, says Jehovah, and quit touching the unclean thing."2 Cor. 6:14-17.
Understandably, one invited to attend a wedding of worldly relatives and acquaintances may at times be faced with quite a problem. For example, the invitation may have been extended to a Christian wife and her unbelieving husband. He may think that both of them should be present for the wedding. Yet she may be troubled about it. She may reason that, if she were to attend a church wedding, the emotional pressure of the circumstances could cause her to do something wrong. On the other hand, she might conclude that, out of regard for her husbands wishes, she could go with him merely as a respectful observer, but being determined not to share in any religious acts.
Regardless of how a wife might view the matter, it would be to her advantage to explain her position to her husband. If, on the basis of her explanation, he comes to the conclusion that his wifes presence may possibly give rise to a situation unpleasant to him, he may prefer to go alone. Or, he may still want her to go with him, but as a quiet observer, in which case she will have to decide whether to go.
Something that deserves consideration is the effect that attending a wedding in a religious building might have on fellow believers. Could it injure the conscience of some? Might their resistance to engaging in actual idolatrous acts be weakened by this action of yours? A Bible principle that comes into the picture is: "Make sure of the more important things, so that you may be flawless and not be stumbling others up to the day of Christ."Phil. 1:10; see also 1 Corinthians 8:9-13.
At times an invitation to a wedding may include being actively involved as a member of the bridal party. What if this required participation in certain religious acts? Manifestly one desiring to be pleasing to God could not share in acts of false religion; the person must act in harmony with his Word. But a Christian could explain just how he feels and point out that in no way does he want to mar the joy of the wedding day by being responsible for what might prove to be an embarrassing situation.
In matters of this nature, Christians must carefully weigh all the factors involved. Under certain circumstances they may conclude that no difficulties would arise if they were to attend as quiet observers. On the other hand, the circumstances may be such that a Christian may reason that likely injury to his conscience or that of others by attending such worldly wedding outweighs the possible benefits of attending. Whatever the situation, the Christian should make sure that his decision will not interfere with his preserving a good conscience before God and men.
Edited by - saintsatan on 19 September 2002 4:25:58
 
Wolfgirl
Wolfgirl 13 years ago

It sure was forbidden where I lived. The elders must have taken the strong "suggestions" of the society and made them rules. I was taught that if you went to a church for any reason, you were an apostate.
 
Satanus
Satanus 13 years ago


While the wt has not made this a dfing issue, lest anyone get too liberal in their enterpretation of how the wt is attempting to mould the jw mind, here is a wt enterpretation of this article with the use of a demonstration. Note especially the last line, the punch line
------
*** km 11/83 2 Meetings to Help Us Make Disciples ***
WEEKSTARTINGNOVEMBER6
Song 63
10
min: Local announcements and appropriate Announcements from OurKingdomMinistry. Include financial report. Remind all to bring OurMinistry book to Service Meeting next week.
23
min: "Have Your Perceptive Powers Trained." Talk. Include 5-minute demonstration on paragraph 7. Teenage daughter asks her father if she can attend cousins wedding, to be held in a church. Asks if Society would approve. Suggests father call or write. Father helps her see it is Jehovahs approval we want. Society has already given guidelines. Gets 1971-1975 Index. Subject "Weddings, attending worldly" refers to December 15, 1974, Watchtower, pages 766-7. Asks her to read the material and later tell him if she still wants to attend. Speaker concludes with comments on value of TheWatchtower. Help our neighbors see value of subscribing during November. One-minute closing scene where daughter comments that Society does not say cant go, but after seeing all dangers involved has decided not to go.
Edited by - saintsatan on 19 September 2002 4:22:36
 
crownboy
crownboy 13 years ago

OldHippie, I didn't say Witnesses were banned from going to weddings and funerals at other churches, just strongly cautioned against. Did you read my links to a Watchtower article from this year?
 

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Can JWs attend other churches?
by SusanHere 13 years ago 20 Replies latest 13 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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SusanHere
SusanHere 13 years ago


Thank you all for your excellent responses. I don't have access to most JW literature, so the quoted articles were especially helpful in seeing that she did step well beyond what would be allowed had anyone she knew seen her.
Xander, you asked if my sister commented on our services afterwards, and yes, she did. Also, during the meeting she bowed her head and closed her eyes in prayer, effectively becoming part of the service with us. She listened intently to the speakers, and afterwards commented on how beautifully one speaker in particular, a teenager, prepared and presented his talk and what excellent points he made. She wanted to know if he had an outline (he didn't...we never use them).
She sang the hymns with us, commented on how well the organist played, and when one of the sisters sang a solo, my sister dabbed tears from her eyes.
I barely dared breathe during the entire service, expecting at any moment that she would walk out or at least close her eyes and pretend to sleep as I'd seen her do before when confronted with non-JW doctrines or practices in situations where she felt she couldn't just walk out.
I didn't comment on her own religion's stand regarding her being with us as I really wasn't sure if I'd misunderstood what that was, or perhaps it had changed. If she doesn't know that I know what the teaching is -- thanks to all of you -- perhaps she'll attend with us again and the armor's crack will open a little wider. I love my sister and will support her in whatever she chooses to do, but I know her religion has not been a blessing to her other than to give her a never before had sense of belonging. She's given up so much to gain so little.
Thanks again...I really appreciate the insight all of your comments have given me.
Susan
 

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Topic Summary
i have an odd situation that came up during a recent visit by my long-time jw sister.
on sunday she agreed to attend our meetings (lds) with us "to see how other churches do things".
i was totally blown away.



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Do You Want To Become A Mormon?
by Tower Man 14 years ago 25 Replies latest 14 years ago   jw friends
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Tower Man
Tower Man 14 years ago


Hi,
I thought after you read the Mormon jokes that you might want to hear what the LDS Church really is all about. We have an audio from Walter Martin called, "The Maze of Mormonism". It's one of his best. Hope you like! http://www.towertotruth.net/audio.htm
Tower Man
 
StinkyPantz
StinkyPantz 14 years ago

I will never, ever be a member of organized religion again, but thanks for the offer.
 
AjaxMan
AjaxMan 14 years ago

Hell NO!
 
Tower Man
Tower Man 14 years ago


I am not actually recommending that you or anyone join the Mormon Church. It is a cult just like the Watchtower is. I thought some people might want to hear about their heretical teachings. It's pretty mind-blowing.
By the way, Stinky Pantz, never say never! God might just have plans for you.
In Love,
Tower Man
 
Imbue
Imbue 14 years ago


Hmm...Fool me once...fool me twice...hmm... I think not!


 I will never, ever be a member of organized religion again, but NO thanks for the offer.
 
plmkrzy
plmkrzy 14 years ago

I have family that are mormon. Thats close enough.
 
StinkyPantz
StinkyPantz 14 years ago


T Man-
I didn't actually listen to the audio thingy.
As for God having plans for me, I don't think so. If and I stress IF there is a God I believe that he gave us all free will and we make our own plans.
 
Prisca
Prisca 14 years ago


I had a look at the web site - interesting but not for me.
I'm with Stinky - I'm never gonna be involved in an organised religion either. Belief in God is a personal thing, you don't need to be a member of a religion to believe in or to serve Him.


 
drahcir yarrum
drahcir yarrum 14 years ago


A few years ago the wife and I took the family on a western states vacation. You know, Wyoming, Montana and Utah. While in Salt Lake City we toured the Mormon Church facilities and the girls leading the tour reminded me of JW girls. Just sicky sweet nice girls who in the end wanted to get our name, address, etc. So I put my next door neighbors information on the card and a note for them to have someone please call.
About a month later, my neighbor started getting LDS mailings and phone calls. He was puzzeled as to why he was being contacted by the Mormons. I never did tell him the truth. LOL
 
Tower Man
Tower Man 14 years ago


Stinky Pantz,
You're right. God gave us a free will to choose to follow him or to do our own thing. If you became sure there was a God, would you submit to Him?
T Man
 
StinkyPantz
StinkyPantz 14 years ago


Submit?
Well, I doubt anyone could prove his exixtence to me unequivocally.
Besides having free will is a whole different subject. The KKK believe in God, what is he willing them to do?
Edit: What are his "plans" for them?

Edited by - StinkyPantz on 10 August 2002 22:1:44
 
Tower Man
Tower Man 14 years ago


God's will for the KKK is the same as it is for all - Repent 2 Peter 3:9
The KKK, like the Watchtower, has created God in their own image. How convenient.
 
Matt_exmo
Matt_exmo 14 years ago


http://www.helpingmormons.org/listeninglibrary.htm
This gives real -secretly recorded- recordings of the weird Mormon temple ceremony.
Listen hard. It really is scary. The women get to wear a veil, the men were little pastrycook-style caps and you take your clothing off, put on a white poncho and your body is anointed with oil. I am not joking. Weird, huh?
I Fixed the link! there was an extra "/" in it. Sorry!
Edited by - Matt_exmo on 11 August 2002 20:8:49
 
Tower Man
Tower Man 14 years ago


Matt,
That link isn't working for me. You sure it's right?
Tower man
 
StinkyPantz
StinkyPantz 14 years ago


T Man-
Well I'd hate to be part of an organization that needed to repent constantly for their organized wrongs and falsehoods.. That's why I left the JW's so that I would not be angering "God" by leading people down the wrong path. That's also why I'll never be a part of another organized religion (not that the KKK are a religion).
Edited by - StinkyPantz on 10 August 2002 22:11:29
 
plmkrzy
plmkrzy 14 years ago

Every month I get a letter from the Trinity Broadcasting network asking for "Love Gifts"  Yeh...whatever LOL
 
Tower Man
Tower Man 14 years ago


S Pantz,
Very noble of you. Leading people astray spiritually is deadly. I wouldn't want to answer for that either. But you were relying on an organization to interpret the bible for you. Jesus promised the Holy Spirit to us as individuals to guide us into all truth. We don't need an organization to interpret it for us.
I don't think religion ever did anyone any good either. Christianity is not a religion, it's a relationship. Religion is man's attempt to reach God. Christianity is God's attempt to reach man. Jn 3:16
T Man
PS Gotta go. My lovely wife needs to use the computer.
 
Jesus Christ
Jesus Christ 14 years ago

Hehehehehe, everyone up here gets the biggest kicks out of watching what those idiots do. Frankly, we're amazed that anyone can talk to them for more than like 5 minutes without cracking up laughing.
 
Satanus
Satanus 14 years ago


First towerman talks about the need to repent, bringing back the guilt stick to hit people where it hurts. Then he brings in the need to submit machine gun, to kill people's will. Then he tries the bait on the hook method below.

Holy Spirit to us as individuals to guide us into all truth. We don't need an organization to interpret it for us.
I don't think religion ever did anyone any good either. Christianity is not a religion, it's a relationship
Nobody needs your preaching either. It's just religion wrapped in a nice chocolate caramel coating. Let god do his own preaching, if he wants to. Obviously, he doesn't want to, but you do. Try to meditate on your above quoted words. Once you have experienced god, come and tell me about it. I'll be interested.
SS
 
ISP
ISP 14 years ago


No beer in Morman world, right?
Enough said.
ISP
 

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Do You Want To Become A Mormon?
by Tower Man 14 years ago 25 Replies latest 14 years ago   jw friends
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ozziepost
ozziepost 14 years ago


Do You Want To Become A Mormon?
"Out of the frying pan and into the................"
 
Mutz
Mutz 14 years ago

Becoming a mormon is on my list of things to do..........just below nailing my testicles to a plank.
 
Granny Linda
Granny Linda 14 years ago


My husband's former wife got pregnant during that marriage by a High Priest that was Mormon. Same, same as JW's...Mormon big shots told my hubby not to upset the apple cart and say or do anything that "would ruin his family." Meaning that High Priest family because of course he was married with 6 kids. Ya see, it's ok for one man's family to get flushed down the toilet, but don't do or say anthing that would might not look good for the church. And of course the higher up you are in their ranks, oh well, ya know that scenerio. And husband was a Mormon elder himself at the time.
It takes what it takes...he had already been asking too many questions about doctrine.
Granny
 
Matt_exmo
Matt_exmo 14 years ago


http://www.helpingmormons.org/ListeningLibrary.htm
Edited by - Matt_exmo on 11 August 2002 17:12
Yep! It works now. Sorry!
Edited by - Matt_exmo on 11 August 2002 17:14:37
 
expatbrit
expatbrit 14 years ago


just below nailing my testicles to a plank.
Not as bad as it's made out to be. Unlike joining cults.
Expatbrit
 
COMF
COMF 14 years ago

Oh, yeah, man, I get all excited at the thought of being able to become a manipulated zombie obediently lapping up the shit dispensed by a group of controlling assholes.
 

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Topic Summary
i thought after you read the mormon jokes that you might want to hear what the lds church really is all about.
we have an audio from walter martin called, "the maze of mormonism".
hope you like!



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by AndersonsInfo a year ago



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NCC reaches out to WTS / LDS !!!
by Amazing 14 years ago 14 Replies latest 14 years ago   jw friends
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Amazing
Amazing 14 years ago


The Watchtower membership in the UN was, and continues to be major news. On another front, a more slow and subtle change is emerging. The National Council of Churches in the USA ( a member of the World Council of Churches) ... has made a policy statement regarding two 'cult-like' denominations:
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormon) and Jehovah's Witnesses (Watchtower Society). The Mormons at one time denounced the nominal Christian churches as an apostate abonmination (language we are familiar with ) and now the Mormon Church is in negotiations with the NCC!
The Watchtower Society (Jehovah's Witnesses) are not as of yet in negotiations, but has opted to not call the JWs a cult or to say that the JWs are not Christian ... therefore, the NCC has paved the way for negotiations. The NCC had modified and modeated many of its official positions, but it has not yet modified it requirements on the Trinity teaching, and this likely is stopping the Mormons from full membership ... and certainly would stop the WTS.
It seems unlikely, however, that a large and significant organization as the NCC would not take these moderating steps unless there were at least some private dialogue going on with the WTS - though I have no evidence of this. Still, the fact that the NCC has taken steps to reach out in this way, at least sends a signal to the WTS ... and is paving the way for the WTS to get their NCC Library Card.
Here is what the NCC says:
 Interfaith Relations and the Churches
A Brief Theological Introduction to the Policy Statement By Bert F. Breiner, Co-Director for Interfaith Relations, NCCCUSA
Preliminary Notes

Paragraph 3 deliberately avoids making statements about a number of controversial issues. It does not, for example, attempt a definition of what constitutes a "religion." Some Buddhists, for example, would not consider Buddhism to be a "religion." It is often difficult to determine exactly what constitutes a religious tradition and what does not. For the same reason, the document does not deal with the question of modern "cults" and what constitutes a "cult" and what should be recognized as a bona fide religion. It also does not deal with the borders of Christianity. It does not, for example, pronounce on whether or not Jehovahs Witnesses and Mormons are to be considered Christian.It is, however, interesting to note that the NCCC conducts its growing relationship with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as an interfaith relationship.
Finally, I have been working on something for months now that blends in with this, and I want to tell you in the worst way ... but I have to wait a while longer ... and I promise, it WILL be a Bombshell when I am able to release the information. Stay tuned for more.
You can check the NCC web site yourself at:
The Prelimiary Notes: http://www.ncccusa.org/interfaith/brieftheocom.html
The FULL POLICY Statement: http://www.ncccusa.org/interfaith/ifr.html
Both of these documents are worth reading ... the NCC is trying hard to accept and deal with realities in the Christian faith today ... and maybe, just maybe ... the WTS will come around one day ...
Edited by - Amazing on 5 July 2002 10:50:39
 
Guest 77
Guest 77 14 years ago


It is my understanding that the WCC is a communist front. This organization had been exposed as such back in the forties.
Guest 77
 
voltaire
voltaire 14 years ago


What would be the effect on the rank and file if the WTS were to join the NCC? A woman who works with my dad was a member of The Worldwide Church of God before they made drastic changes in their doctrine. They were rather similar to JWs, no birthdays, Christmas, etc. She was thoroughly disillusioned. On the other hand, so many witnesses are new, I think it would be relatively easy for the society to introduce changes.
A year ago I would have laughed at the mere sugestion of the Wt joining the NCC. I might have questioned your sanity. But after having joined the UN, who knows? Is it any worse, from the WT point of view, to get into bed with Babylon the Great thanwith the wild beast?
 
nancee park
nancee park 14 years ago

He just clearly said the NCC would allow nontrinitarian groups to belong. What would however upset some JWs is that previous articles had spoken against other groups, but then they have worked with the UN as an official NGO or did rather for 10 years. And not at all unlikely they "unofficially" still work with the UN as well as the NCC. They would simply tell JW rank-and-file, that they meet and confer where necessary with the NCC but it does not mean that they are part of it in the sense of having to give up their teachings. Or something of that order.
 
minimus
minimus 14 years ago

There is 1 thing that I am clearly seeing going on with many people and that is that when these things start coming out people's faith in the organization slowly begins to dissipate.They may not express it right away but in the right circumstances they will say that they are bewildered. Eventually, they begin to question things.But it all starts with being exposed to questionable things a little at a time. There is no 1 thing that will shock people to leave the organization unless there is a cumulative effect making something the last straw.
 
metatron
metatron 14 years ago


What is more interesting to me than the slide in the average
Witnesses faith is my long held suspicion that the guys who
run this sick organization don't really believe in it any more.
Don't get me wrong - I think some old looneys like Barr are sincere
however, the men in the middle must be losing it. The guys who
should be writing Official Apologias in the Society's name are
increasingly silent. All you get instead are poorly crafted lies
and half truths typical of a system that's lost any depth of
doctrine. I also can't fathom what these guys tell themselves
while quietly dancing away from the blood issue.
When the Soviet Union collapsed, the leadership had become
completely cynical while the ordinary citizen still was fanatical,
if a bit weary.
I think that example applies here.
metatron
 
mustang
mustang 14 years ago


This highlights another of the "fringe" doctrines that JWs espouse: INTERFAITH.
And JWs party line for this one has always been: "WE DONT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THOSE FALSE RELIGIONS"!!! This automatically assumes all others are wrong and says stay away from them in one breath.
Somebody in chat told me the other night that "nothing had changed" in Dub-Land in the last 20 years!!! ROFLMAO.
Well, save all your reference material: CDs, old WTs and such. Here comes another of those changes "that dont happen".
Mustang
 
blondie
blondie 14 years ago


PAST COMMENTS BY THE WTS ABOUT THE NCC
*** w84 1/15 24 Insight on the News ***
Non-Sexist Bible
"For God so loved the world that God gave Gods only Child, that whoever believes in that Child should not perish, but have eternal life." That translation may sound odd to you. But it is the way John 3:16 is rendered in a new 192-page translation of Bible readings, The Inclusive Language Lectionary, released by the National Council of Churches.
"This lectionary tries to speak of God as beyond differentiations of sex," says its introduction. So that its readers are "not overwhelmed by male metaphors," the translation uses expressions such as "God my Father and Mother" for "Father," "Child" for "Son," "Sovereign One" for "Lord," and so forth. Thus, Jesus prayer on the night of his arrest begins: "God my Mother and Father, the hour has come; glorify your Child that your Child may glorify you."John 17:1.
Among those voicing disapproval of the translation is Princeton Theological Seminary professor Bruce Metzger, who said: "To explain that God transcends differences of gender is the work of the religious educator, not the Bible translator." What the new lectionary has done is "tantamount to rewriting the Bible," he added. Apparently, in its effort to ally itself with the womens liberation movement (and to uphold the ordination of women), the National Council of Churches has seen fit to alter Gods Word.
The Pharisees and scribes of Jesus day had their own ideas and causes to espouse, and in so doing they rendered Gods Word void. Jesus said of them, "You have made the word of God invalid because of your tradition." Modern-day "Pharisees" are trying to do something similar. But their worship is no more acceptable to God than was that of the ancient Pharisees concerning whom Jesus added: "It is in vain that they keep worshiping [God], because they teach commands of men as doctrines."Matthew 15:6, 9.
*** w82 12/15 11 Insight on the News ***
A Waning "Product"
A study recently released at the headquarters of the National Council of Churches in New York revealed results of a major investigation of American religion. One of the directors of the study, Professor William Newman of the University of Connecticut, stated that "the present generation in middle adulthood in general uses the product [religion] less." He also noted that Americans generally "are less enamored of religion." And The New York Times report on the study added: "Church membership from 1971 to 1980 failed to keep pace with the rate of the nations population growth, reversing a pattern of church prosperity in the previous two decades." Less than half of all adults now belong to a church or synagogue.
Thus the Biblically prophesied drying up of support for religion continues, just as the waters of the river Euphrates were dried up to prepare the way for the destruction of ancient Babylon. Today, "Babylon the Great," the world empire of false religion, is also losing its "waters," portending a similar outcome.Revelation 16:12; 17:1, 5, 15, 16.
*** w66 6/1 345 Can You Avoid the Mark of the Beast? ***
What about Babylon the Great, the world empire of false religion? Does she worship the beast and its image? Consider these facts: In all the nations, the religions of Babylon the Great turn the people to their own nationalistic governments for hope of life and peace. In many places the Church is united with the State. The most aggressive member in Great Babylon, namely, Christendom, heartily backed up the formation of the League of Nations as proposed by the Anglo-American World Power in 1918. In January of 1919 the National Council of Churches of Christ in America termed the proposed League of Nations "the political expression of the kingdom of God on earth."
*** g70 2/22 3-4 How Does the National Council Stand with God? ***
THE National Council of Churches is the largest federation of religions in the United States. It is said to be made up of 33 Protestant and Orthodox denominations with a combined membership of about 42 million persons.
These churches say they represent God. Thus, one should expect the Council to be in harmony with Gods requirements, for Gods own Word says: "This is what the love of God means, that we observe his commandments."1 John 5:3.
It was of interest, therefore, to read the following from the New York Times of December 5, 1969: "Mrs. Theodore O. Wedel, a 61-year-old former church executive, defeated a militant black candidate today to become the first woman president of the National Council of Churches." Mrs. Wedel is an Episcopalian. Yet, the Times noted: "The Episcopal Church is one of the few Protestant denominations in the country that still refuses to ordain women."
Episcopalians thus find themselves in a dilemma. They do not ordain women as church leaders. Yet one of their women members is now the head of the organization of which they are a part.
When God created man and woman, he equipped each of them with wonderful mental and physical qualities to care for their respective roles. God created the man to be family head: "A husband is head of his wife." (Eph. 5:23) The woman was excellently suited for her rolethat of wife and mother.
However, we also read: "The head of every man is the Christ," and "in turn the head of the Christ is God." (1 Cor. 11:3) In the Christian congregation, men are to take the lead. But they are not to try to take over the role of Christ, acting as if they are mediators between their fellow worshipers and God. (1 Tim. 2:5) In the same way, women are not authorized by God to take over the mens role of presiding and instructing in the Christian congregation. Gods Word says: "I do not permit a woman to teach, or to exercise authority over a man." (1 Tim. 2:12) And: "It is disgraceful for a woman to speak in a congregation," that is, in a manner that challenges the headship of men.1 Cor. 14:35.
But if there are things the woman does not understand, what then? Instead of disputing with those to whom God has given the assignment, Gods Word says: "If, then, they want to learn something, let them question their own husbands at home." U.S. News & World Report of December 15 states: "Disputes over such issues as black power, the war in Vietnam and draft resistance are raising large questions about the future of the National Council of Churches." Over these disputes a woman now presides, contrary to the principle that only men are to preside in the Christian congregation.
How does the Council measure up in other regards? Earlier in 1969 a commission of the Council condoned student violence in the belief that "God is in some way present in the midst of these movements, and we would be prepared to see in them His creating of a new order." But nowhere does the Bible teach this. Jesus did not promote communism, capitalism, socialism, revolution or any other such philosophy. He taught that God will replace all present systems with the kingdom of God.Matt. 6:10; Dan. 2:44.
Christians, Jesus commanded, are to preach "this good news of the kingdom . . . in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come." (Matt. 24:14) But of the Councils actual work, two ministers said: "The National Council of Churches does have as its primary objective the preaching of the gospel of Christ . . . It has become an ecclesiastical power bloc, aiming for a powerful super-church, which would be the instrument of revolutionary, social and political change."
That the Council has deviated so far from Gods commands should come as no surprise when we consider the spiritual health of its member churches. A poll taken of Council delegates found that 33 percent of them doubted that "God really exists," and 62 percent doubted that "miracles actually happened just as the Bible says they did." An Episcopal minister said of the Genesis account of creation: "Its a myth in the true sense." Another maintained that the Ten Commandments were out of date, irrelevant to modern society.
Episcopal theologian J. Fletcher said that in some cases fornication could be more moral than married love, lying more Christian than telling the truth, stealing more acceptable than respecting private property. Episcopal minister F. Wood told an all-girl college: "There are no laws attached to sex. I repeat: absolutely no laws. . . . Premarital intercourse . . . can be very beautiful." And ninety Episcopalian priests classified homosexual acts between consenting adults as "morally neutral," declaring that it may even be a good thing.
But Gods Word declares: "Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, nor thieves, nor greedy persons . . . will inherit Gods kingdom." (1 Cor. 6:9, 10) Do you believe God, or the clergy who say the opposite of what God says?
Is your church a member of the Council? If so, it shares responsibility for what the Council says and does. And what the Council is saying and doing is contrary to what Gods commands are. Hence, the Council is in fact turning its back on God, and is responsible for misleading others to do the same.
What about you? Are you a member of a church that belongs to the Council? Do you think you will please God by remaining part of any system that proves by its fruits that it has turned away from God and is influencing others to do the same?Matt. 7:19, 20.
 
Amazing
Amazing 14 years ago


Hi Mustang:
Well, save all your reference material: CDs, old WTs and such. Here comes another of those changes "that dont happen".
Excellent and so true! I spit out my coffee when I read this. Yes, and there IS more to follow. Thanks again.
 
Amazing
Amazing 14 years ago

Blondie: Thanks for the past WTS quotes about the NCC ... it will be interesting to see what the future brings on this issue.
 
MacHislopp
MacHislopp 14 years ago


Hello Amazing,

thanks for this piece of information. Do you think it'll develop
into something like the United Nations affair??
Be certain that I'll look into all the links that you have indicated.

Blondie: Excellent researches for our archives!
Mustang: I do believe that your comment is very, very near
to the actual truth, concerning the policy of the WBTS
Inc.

Greetings, J.C.MacHislopp
 
Amazing
Amazing 14 years ago


HI Mac:
Do you think it'll develop into something like the United Nations affair??
Possibly, but I am not sure. It is hard to imagine that the NCC would bother mentioning the Jehovah's Witnesses unless there were at least some dialogue going on in private ... but as yet, I have no direct evidence for this. But the fact that the NCC took time to discuss both the LDS and the WTS in the same sentance strongly suggests to me that the LDS does not mind the attention, but the WTS does not yet want the publicity.
If it proves to be that the Society was/is negotiating, and/or becomes a member, or even an affiliate of any type ... then I have no doubt that it will be even worse than the UN saga ... because the Watchtgower Society has been far more vicious for far longer toward religions than they have toward governments. The Bible makes them behave toward government ... 'give unto Caesar' rule ... but with religion, there is no such limitation.
I hope you do check the links I provided. I would appreciate your review. The way it is referenced right now, the JWs are mentioned very breifly ... and suggests that this is something only the NCC is talking about ... but, what is not said is what I am also reading ... kind of between the lines ... admittedly, this on my part is speculative, but I have some very good undisclosed reasons for saying so.
Edited by - Amazing on 5 July 2002 17:39:32
 
GermanXJW
GermanXJW 14 years ago

Could this have anything to do with this old thread?http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=14217&site=3
 
Amazing
Amazing 14 years ago


HI German: Regarding the link you cite, http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=14217&site=3 No, not really. I did comment to Jimiah on that thread, but I do not recall that he ever accepted my invitation for him to email me ... he could have, but I just don't recall ... so it did not turn into anything ...
I have been watching the NCC for a long time and already had some research developed when he posted about the IBSA and the WCC ... However, I am very appreciative of you posting that thread,  because it does link the IBSA and the WCC in one sense ... a charity connection ... so, this is good to keep linked together ... excellent and thanks much.
 
nancee park
nancee park 14 years ago

It's crazy they were an official Non-Governmental Organization in the UN 10 years till exposed on the internet they had the gall to claim they had just become a member in order to get a UN library research card! It's never ever been required anyone become an NGO just to get a UN library card! Why are they selling out the rank-and-file like this? Do they really think people never find out!
 

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JW's one of the Most Dangerous Religions?
by Mindchild 14 years ago 27 Replies latest 14 years ago   jw friends
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Mindchild
Mindchild 14 years ago


Are Jehovah’s Witnesses One of the Ten Most Dangerous Religions on Earth?
 Skip Starbuck AKA  Mindchild 
Many years ago on a spring day to pleasant to be outdoors pioneering, something strange happened to two Jehovah’s Witnesses. These two regular pioneers were going door to door on a street that was situated on the peak of a steep hill. They choose to work the houses going downhill to save some effort from the 900-foot (300-meter) difference in elevation. Sometime around the second or third house they had visited they noticed a commotion at the bottom of the hill and a man his arms and shouting to get their attention. The two pioneers looked at each other and wondered if this individual was trying to contact them because the yells didn’t carry far because of the traffic of the streets below. In a moment or two, this man began to run up the hill and while the two Witnesses stood there and watched, he collapsed on the ground before getting near them.
The two Witnesses than ran down to the man, and rolled him over on his back all the while terrified that he had a heart attack from the run up the hill. He was till alive though, but could barely speak. He whispered something to one of the pioneers who was leaning over him and this is what he said,  I have something to tell you that is very important. You have one of the most dangerous religions in the world.  The man had nothing further to say, and both pioneers were too emotionally distraught thinking he was going to die, to say anything back.
He didn’t die, but something inside me did. I was one of those two pioneers. I now find it somewhat ironic that I’m about to tell you the same thing, that Jehovah’s Witnesses are one of the most dangerous religions in the world.
I’ll never know what the reasoning was of the person who told me but hopefully you will understand my arguments after reading through the evidence that I present below. This information may be viewed by some of you as very controversial and even shocking. You don’t have to agree with my conclusions but something will have happened to you anyway for reading it. Maybe you will be angry or even feel sick inside, as I was when I leaned over this incapacitated man after you read this but you will have to judge for yourself if this is all hype or if there is something here of value.
 This isn’t an evolution vs. creation debate
Have you ever read Charles Darwin’s,  The Origin of Species  ? You should. It is the single greatest intellectual accomplishment in man’s history.
Darwin showed that in nature, the more fit an organism is, the more likely it will pass on its genes. New organisms are harshly evaluated. The winners get to live and end up passing on their traits, while the losers die. Evolution doesn’t care at all about which characteristics get passed through time. By means of the act of survival, the organism has proved its superiority.
This principle of natural selection and evolution is so powerful that we have used these Darwinian rules in computer systems to make a new kind of software that uses natural selection to make new computer programs. Here, instead of passing genes on to their descendants, the software programs that survive pass on superior computer codes they use to solve problems. The software’s fitness is evaluated by how well these program solutions contribute to optimizing computer performance. Software that does poorly gets eliminated from the gene pools but programs that produce good results live on, and every so often they combine with other survivors to make even more powerful software.
I used this example because most people don’t realize the power of natural selection in the world around us. In fact, the genetic engineering caused through biological evolution over millions of years of life on earth has done more to change the face of this planet than water, fire, wind, earthquakes and volcano’s. While Darwinian evolution is incredibly powerful, it is glacial in its rate of change. We know that it takes thousands of generations to test even the tiniest mutations in the population. Then after competition has determined the fittest, it requires thousands more generations for the now superior organism to become dominate in the species, which in turn spreads its superior traits, by fact of that dominance. When you get down to counting out how long all this takes in years, it can easily be tens of thousands of years.
Perhaps many of you already knew this but did you realize that about ten thousand years ago, humans were infected with a virus that rendered genetic evolution irrelevant?
The speed that this new virus replicates itself is phenomenal, and its rate of reproduction is easily growing a million fold every human generation.
This virus is a parasite. It needs a host to survive. It is a lot like the bacteria that inhabit your stomach,  Enterbacter Coli. In order to aid in its own survival as a species this virus aids in the survival of its host. If the host prospers, then so does the virus, as a symbiotic relationship exists between them. And there can be no doubt that we humans have flourished in the last ten thousand or so years.
There is a big downside to this relationship though. When a parasitic life form like the bacteria in your stomach determines that there is an imminent danger to the continued survival of the host, it immediately pursues its own survival interests. If the bacteria sense a perforation of your stomach walls, they begin to reproduce massively. This growing infection often kills the host but it increases the odds for the bacteria perpetuating its species. The virus I’m making reference to though is not in your stomach, it is in your brain.
 What is this virus that is in our brains that is evolving and growing?
What I am about to tell you is being actively suppressed by this virus. Your reluctance to believe me has been triggered by a powerful defense mechanism that is triggered when you encounter radical new ideas. Existing knowledge defends itself against new ideas by ridiculing or persecuting its proponents.
Good, evil, beauty, racism, and religion are ideas and are much like the strands of DNA in our culture. These ideas reproduce by being passed down from parents to children, from books to reader, from your computer to you, and from brain to brain. Whenever you learn something new, a meme has been passed. A meme (pronounced `meem') is a pattern of information that is much like a single strand of DNA. It represents a unit of knowledge that is effective at reproducing itself and therefore surviving. The more believable or attractive the idea is, the better chance it has of spreading. Some memes die and a clear example of this is about a onetime popular idea that leeching patients of “sick” blood cured them. Along came new memes resulting from modern medicine and these older ideas no longer proved to be the fittest as the rules of cultural evolution are very similar to genetic evolution.
When memes interact with the brains wet-ware, beliefs result. Beliefs are a higher order structure that transcends individual memes and holistically integrates a number of ideas. Jehovah’s Witnesses, Catholics, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhist, humanists and even atheists all have core beliefs that define the universe in which their thoughts and memes exist. However there is a pattern that is very difficult to see that only a few thinkers have dared to touch upon what’s happening in these higher order belief structures and the virus took care of those who did. In the old days they would be killed. Today the virus prevents the spread of this vulnerability by subjecting those who discover it to ridicule or reducing them to obscurity.
 What is it that the virus doesn’t want you to discover?
In the last ten thousand years since first contact something remarkable has happened. Humans have developed skills that communicate, process, and store the virus with greater efficiency. First there was spoken language that allows us to organize our thoughts and name things. Then came written language that allowed us to pass our thoughts through time and space. The result of both of these is that the store of human memes and beliefs has virtually exploded.
As the memes thrived, we thrived. The parasite allowed us to develop technology and sciences that extended our lives and gave us material goods that made life worth living. We returned the favor for the virus by increasing the growth of the memes. When the Industrial Revolution came along though, we humans started to become a risk to ourselves and to the virus. We became capable of wholesale destruction that could bring down civilization and all the memes that made it up. Remember what I said earlier about what parasites do when their host is threatened with destruction?
 They reproduce massively.
Do you think it is a coincidence that right after we developed nuclear weapons we entered into the Information Age? It was after we developed the tools to destroy ourselves that we developed the Information Superhighway and the global village that it created. In the late 1980’s there was a milestone. It was then that the total storage of knowledge contained in computers exceeded the amount stored in human brains. Does this make this human memes or just memes? The virus perpetuates itself through its hosts, and soon the new hosts will be computers that effectively foster reproduction of the virus much faster than humans ever dreamed possible.
Adolph Hitler’s  Mein Kampf  contains memes. I’m not arguing that they are good or bad, right or wrong. They are memes and beliefs that are either successful at replication or not. If the ground is fertile where seeds of fascism fall, the “seed” grows. If the “seed” falls on barren rocks, like modern day America they don’t replicate, or at least not effectively. But when the fascist seeds fell on minds in Germany back in the 1930’s, they swept the world towards destruction and killed millions. The wars unleashed by the next wave of memes will be much worse.
We now live in a world in which the virus has been sewn in every human alive. The spores of this virus are in our books, our music; motion pictures and in our computers. The number and variety of the dangerous memes will grow exponentially with time. So, now all humans are in turn threatened by the growth of this parasite.
Not only is the problem that dangerous memes are rapidly developing and replicating but also these memes have used the tricks of Darwinian evolution to blind the hosts to the dangers they pose. What I’m saying in condensed terms is that the ideas and beliefs that many of us take for granted can be in fact very deadly to us individually and collectively.
 How benign political memes turned into killers
In the United States there is a shocking tragedy occurring each year where twenty times the number of people killed in the World Trade Center attacks die from a bad idea. The killer meme has managed to disguise itself so effectively, that it is a shock for most people to discover what it is. In the book,  Trust Us, We’re Experts!  Sheldon Rampton and John Stauber bring to light that every year over 800,000 people develop cases of occupational illnesses that combined with on-the-job injuries, kill at least 80,000 people. You would think that with such outlandish and expensive losses that the Government would pass some laws to protect workers from danger. In the USA, the Occupational Safety and Health Act was passed in 1970 to address this problem but the shocking revelations presented by the authors show that every day since the passage of that act, over 300 people die at the workplace and over 1.4 million people have become permanently disabled in workplace accidents since the act became law. A study done on the first 20 years of the effectiveness of this law showed that only 14 people had been prosecuted by the Justice Department for workplace safety violations and only one person went to jail, for 45 days. The authors show in detail how businesses and industry have managed to exempt themselves from effective regulations that would be expensive to implement and shift the burden of blame upon the workers themselves.
Would you like to see another example of how you personally have been duped by this selfish meme? Nearly two thousand years ago, back in the first century A.D. the dangers of lead poisoning were well known. Lead miners strapped animal bladders over their mouths as a way to prevent inhaling it. This wasn’t lost knowledge either, as even Benjamin Franklin wrote about the dangers of lead poisoning. With all this clear knowledge of the dangers of lead, how is it that today the average American carries in their blood between 100 and 500 times the amount of lead in their blood as our preindustrial ancestors? In any major US city, adults have about half the level of lead in their blood (about 20 to 25 micrograms per deciliter) that is needed for impairment of peripheral nerves. A study done in 1979 showed that for every 10 parts per million increases of lead in a child’s tooth, there was a corresponding drop of two IQ points. The sad reality is that if you grew up in a American city as a child, your intelligence may have suffered because of it.
How did things get so bad, who is to blame, and when was the lead problem corrected? In 1922, researchers for General Motors discovered that adding tetraethyl lead to gasoline could raise the compression of gasoline engines. This increased their power and made them run smoother and more efficient. It soon became apparent though from the multiple deaths happening at Standard Oil Company who was making the lead based gasoline that lead was dangerous to use. Instead of owning up to the fact that the collective industries were doing something dangerous the lead industry went on the offensive and started a huge PR campaign to show that the amount of lead in gasoline was so small that it would present no danger and for nearly seven decades afterwards, used every dirty trick and otherwise in the book to keep lead in gasoline. This massive barrage of propaganda attacked and discredited every scientific study done on the toxicity of lead and even managed to get some scientists fired. It was much like the tactics used by the Tobacco industries. It wasn’t until the 1990’s that lead became phased out of all gas because the evidence was just too overwhelming on the dangers caused by lead poisoning and the amounts of lead in everyone’s blood. Even today the lead industry is lobbying against cleanup of the environment where it is now estimated that there is over 5 million tons of lead in soil that need to be removed from near busy roadways at the cost of hundreds of millions of dollars.
These two examples are representative of how the advocates for public health are outnumbered and outmaneuvered by industries expert hired guns until the body counts are so high they can no longer be swept under the rug. The meme and packaged belief system at work here involves a key element of the free enterprise system that puts the most emphasis on the bottom line over human safety and resents rules and regulations until forced into compliance.
This also shows an example of how dangerous memes can propagate and thrive regardless of it being true or not. The survival strategies used by memetic viruses include sophisticated propaganda, payoffs, offensive attacks, and stealth. They thrive in a culture that has seen its democratic principles synergistically compromised to mutate into a Plutocracy or rule of the rich. This provides a survival advantage for memes that synchronize with the flow. Thus, more and more examples should become apparent of dangerous memes integrating themselves with the Corporate-Industrial Alliance that include making dangerous products (even knowingly like defective Firestone tires) or memes who compromise the very function of the government agencies installed for public service (for example the US prison system becoming an important souce for cheap labor to industry). The end result of which is that each citizen in this country is at risk from harm from a wide array of dangerous memes that are propagating at fast rates and have permeated the fabric of the political structure to make the entire country a massive memetic infection. In short, governments evolve into dysfunctional and deleterious forms that end in collapse because the dangerous memes massively reproduce. America will be no exception to this global trend.
 How Religious Memes Evolve to Become Killers
Isn’t it curious that the first act in the human drama that is described in the Bible involves memes? Do you remember what the fruit that Eve bit into represented? Do you remember the tree that the serpent was hanging out in?
While it may seem incomprehensible for many Jehovah’s Witnesses and other carriers of religious mind viruses, the religious meme is one of the most dangerous memes known to mankind and one of the most insidious. Just as industrialists outwitted the public for decades in marketing dangerous and destructive products, religions have marketed an ever-increasing virulent and deadly mind virus to the world at large for thousands of years.
Natural Selection favors memes that are the easiest to understand, to remember, and to communicate to others. When you look at most Judeo-Christian belief systems, for the most part you find more similarities than differences. The widespread nature of Christianity is attributable to it absorbing heresies, older beliefs, making new conversions and making it difficult to exit. Not only do you find similarities in the Western world, but also many eastern belief systems have many branches from the same tree, whether it is Buddhist, Hinduism, or Muslims. Due to these traits and the interpersonal nature of these parasitic memes they have literally become the most widespread form of memes in human history.
As the Watchtower  never ceased to remind us, these religious memes have caused more blood being spilled and more wars to happen than any other reason in history. Have you ever wondered exactly what it was inside religion that makes people kill each other? After all, most people don’t look at their houses of worship as war tents and their religious books as weapons of mass destruction.
I suggest to you that the reliance upon faith has the same consequence as forgoing your sense of vision. Most, but not all religious belief systems require faith. The need for faith is apparent because there is no visible evidence for the God meme. There is inferred evidence through propaganda that ranges from emotional appeals, “third man” endorsements; Potemkin Punditry: virtual surrealties; disinformation, and a wide array of other sophisticated illusional techniques. Regardless, when you cut through all the smoke and mirrors you find that a person of faith needs faith to justify the reality of the God meme and the associated brand of religious packaging they subscribe to. In short, the victim of this meme bases their decision on the sum total of their conceptual reality, including personal feelings, their relationships with others, and their “common sense.” To keep people from sitting on the fence to say, not only is the religious believer forced into accepting faith by reason of lacking empirical evidence, they are commanded to have faith and not to doubt by their comprehensive belief system, the Bible, and their religion.
This compromise to magical thinking has a corresponding effect in altering the individuals Weltanschauung, making them more gullible to the sweeping effects of the mind virus. A person’s self esteem is affected negatively as being a worthless sinner constantly in need of forgiveness and help. Associated memes of male dominance subject women to inferior status as homemaker and baby maker (especially in Third World countries where the Catholic Church prohibits birth control.) The most deadly trait of faith though is intolerance for competing memes. The meme requires the most intolerance for other comprehensive packaged memes that are the most similar to the host meme.
When you look through the trail of human misery and bloodshed throughout history it becomes clear that the collective protection of the memetic mind virus was what was at stake. Other memes can and did integrate themselves into the flow of hatred that erupted and the resulting hostilities but survival of the meme was the battle cry of the day.
The Coming Deadly Transformation of Religions
It seems hard to imagine that the religions we grew up with and know so well could turn traitorous and deadly. Wouldn’t it be a huge shock to you to hear that adherents to a normally peaceful religion suddenly committed an atrocious act of human destruction and killed thousands of innocent people? It surely must have been a shock to hundreds of millions of Muslims on September 11th, 2001 when it was eventually discovered that a group in their religious tree did just that. Is it possible that we will see more memes develop a dangerous trend towards virulence? My answer is yes and it will happen even in the more widespread and established religions when the circumstances trigger memetic survival.
Perhaps one of the more indirectly dangerous forms of Judeo-Christianity associated memes is the Jehovah’s Witness belief system. The founders of this mind virus did not sit around planning on ways to make their religion dangerous; they simply believed in themselves and went their own way in developing their ideological constructs. It can be argued that this belief system is currently only mildly pathogenic to its hosts. The more famous examples of direct harm resulting from victims of this memetic virus are the thousands who have died from refusing blood transfusions, and many more thousands who were persecuted for their intolerant political views. Further abuses came to light from revelations of child abuse, harboring pedophiles, and suicides over belief disconfirmations. The amount of human suffering resulting from broken families, shunning, and emotional disembowelment resulting from belief disconfirmation is not calculable.
I put Jehovah’s Witnesses in a  High Risk  category of religions that is capable of becoming at least moderately pathogenic for several reasons. One of the outstanding differences between Jehovah’s Witnesses and other religions is the  totalizing  nature of their belief. It is well known that the pressure is placed upon adherents to attend multiple meetings each week, to keep current with religious dogma, and to associate with only fellow believers. In spite of the declining hour requirements placed for active participation in their evangelical duties, great emphasis is put on being intimately involved in spreading the memetic code to others and to become familiar with it themselves. Another memetic tactic used by this mind virus is to minimize contact with other sources of unfriendly memes. Such unfriendly memes would be for example any communication with opposing viewpoints and to even avoid tools by which information travels freely, such as using the Internet or obtaining a college education. Another factor that works to the advantage of this belief system is the effectiveness of their propaganda campaign and the massive publishing empire they have created to distribute their memes. The official flow of information runs through a top down system through their hieratical network and through their well-known publications. This reduces the amount of outside communication to other memes but makes the collective group of hosts more vulnerable to emotional exploitation to facilitate the ends of the memes. For example, the ubiquitous reminder that Armageddon is right around the corner, keeps the hosts emotionally discombobulated and reinforces the reliance upon the organization the meme has established.
Left to peaceful coexistence with no threats to the host’s belief system, the Jehovah’s Witnesses would likely follow a path of standardized evolutionary change by which the memes align themselves with compatible alien memes to serve the interests of both meme sets. An example of what I mean can be found in the LDS or Mormon Church that has intimately involved itself with the government and industrial sectors to assure its survival by means of its allies coming to its defense. The evolutionary strategy here is joining a tribe to gain the advantages of numbers. The Watchtower Society appears to be moving into the investment game by means of investing its capital into property and business sectors. It’s worldwide net worth may be approaching hundreds of millions of dollars or even billions of dollars, making it financially important to the corporate industrial complex for sales of goods and services that range from computer systems to chemicals for making ink. We could likewise expect the involvement of Jehovah’s Witnesses in legal and political systems to protect their investments and interests. In this respect, the Jehovah’s Witnesses are moving into established mainstream organized religion. It is also notable that the rhetoric and attacks on other religions by the Jehovah’s Witnesses have softened over the years, as they have become more of an established religion instead of the aggressive cult they started out being.
In spite of general observational trends, the Jehovah’s Witnesses remain potentially dangerous in certain circumstances. Please recall the evolutionary parallels of memes in general and their biological counterparts. Whenever the host organism is threatened with extinction, the memes rapidly multiply. Do we see this trend developing in the world today? Yes! In part due to the rapid exchange of information through the media and the worldwide global village, we are seeing the development of new types of religious memes at unprecedented rates. In 1790 in the USA, there were 17 religions. In 1900 the number had increased to 350 and in 1999 the numbers had increased to over 2000 in the USA.
Considering the overwhelming evidence that new belief systems are propagating everywhere, it would not be inconceivable for a major splitting of the Jehovah’s Witnesses into two or more groups. Jehovah’s Witnesses are more vulnerable than ever to a major belief shift from several ideological chokeholds that are creating great concern and difficulty in the religious group as a whole. The doctrinal points of contention revolve around prophetic disconfirmation with the 1914 doctrine, the blood issue, shunning, and other uncomfortable emotional hot spots that include embarrassing revelations of pedophiles in their membership, and an aging and growingly senile generation of leaders. There is speculation that there may become an intolerable rift in this organization from those who want change and those who stubbornly hold on to traditional beliefs. This could lead to a potential coup in the power sharing relationship at the top, or a splinter group forming with similar beliefs.
The consequences of either action (a coup or a split) would cause much emotional tribulation in the hosts and perhaps result in a sharp increase in suicidal behavior, and clinical depression and other forms of mental illness. When memes are fighting for their survival, they are not going to give up easily, and a great hatred and animosity should be expected between either a split group or a new leadership from a coup. Historically, there have been armed conflicts between mutinous mind viruses and theoretically this could happen in some regions of the world that are war torn already and violence is not unusual. One could certainly expect massive propaganda attacks, lawsuits, and any other offensive tactic in the vast arsenal of meme warfare.
Another plausible scenario whereby the belief ideology of Jehovah’s Witnesses might dangerously change could come from either a natural disaster or a terrorist attack on their organization. We have entered an age where a single individual can terrorize entire nations and turn democratic nation’s liberties on their head in an attempt to arrest the terrorist, costing billions of dollars in damage or cleanup. Could the same thing happen with a disgruntled member of the Jehovah’s Witnesses who becomes mentally unbalanced and commits one of many possibilities for a horrific catastrophe upon the group as a whole? More important than this possibility is what changes would this make in the organization? Would we see the unbalanced thinking of the leadership dynamically influenced which resulted in the announcement that “The Great Tribulation” had started that will conclude with Armageddon? In times of crisis, people seek emotional comfort and the fear that the end was near would likely mobilize semi-active Witnesses and create huge expectations much beyond the scope of the 1975 prediction. It would be likely that Jehovah’s Witnesses would quit their employment in masses, and engage in herding behavior for perceived protection from enemies, perhaps heading in large groups to remote locations in their various home countries. Such a massive move of millions of people would not go unnoticed and would not be appreciated by the population at large for a variety of reasons. Perhaps law enforcement agencies would be ordered to arrest the leadership, which would further inflame the situation and lead to more emotional instability on the part of the membership, with the resulting behavior unknown. The most dangerous stage of such a scenario would be at a critical point when it was evident that the end of the world wasn’t coming. The meme hosts will be extremely volatile at this point and unpredictable. They would be faced with a choices of a humiliating prophetic disconfirmation which would make them the laughing stock of the entire world, or the other choices would include dangerous emotional turmoil that could result in mass killing of those they deemed responsible for the ruination of their lives or some might just continue to wait things out until forced to return to the world at large. In any case, it would be a no win situation that would surely create a health care epidemic of unimaginable proportions with potentially over a million Jehovah’s Witnesses in need of mental health care, some of which will be homeless, jobless, and completely unable to care for themselves.
There is truth to the saying, “old ideas die hard.” It is because they have to die. The memes are fighting for the survival and they are not going to give up easily. What kills memes is a more believable idea, a better meme. If the above scenario came true, the ideas that compose the belief system of Jehovah’s Witnesses would be killed in its present form, but with unimaginable human suffering as a cost. The lawsuits resulting from such a calamity would liquidate the Watchtower Society but it would not solve the problems of millions of people then living in fear of a world they have not learned to cope with.
The Coming End Game
In the end, it is not memes themselves that pose the ultimate program for the extinction of mankind, it is memes that self organize into belief complexes that change behavior and replicate themselves at the expense of the host. Faith is simply a tactic used by some meme complexes as a defense mechanism that works well in spreading the virus. Until humans fully understand that the root cause of all mankind’s problems are a consequence of certain types of mind viruses replicating, we will continue to have wars, crime, pollution, and dangerous religions. My expectation is that we don’t have what it takes as a species to run this big antiviral program to destroy the dangerous viruses infecting humanity. More likely, if we haven’t destroyed ourselves because of the massive reproduction of dangerous viruses our mind children, sentient A.I. life forms we create will do it for us. Their evolution has already started and is taking place at a incredible pace. In perhaps less than ten years we will have AI’s as intelligent if not more so than man, and in another 40 years, they should each equal the entire human race in neural abilities. They too will have mind viruses. They may well try to end all the things that we troublesome humans do and think that harm ourselves and also threatens the global store of knowledge. These successor hosts to memes may well eliminate the risk posed by humans all together and then we may have our Armageddon after all.
References and resources used in this article
The Rise of the Study of New Religions
. http://www.cesnur.org/testi/bryn/br_melton.htm
The Future of Religion and the Future of New Religions, by Massimo Introvigne
. http://www.cesnur.org/2001/mi_june03.htm
Memes: Introduction, by Glenn Grant, Memeticist
. http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/MEMIN.html
Memes. http://www.mememachine.cwc.net/memes.htm
[i]Trust Us, We’re Experts!
By Sheldon Rampton and John Stauber (2001)
My inspiration for this article came from Eric L. Harry in his most excellent novel, [i]Society of the Mind
(1996)
 
TR
TR 14 years ago


Lead. This is why us yanks are so goddamn dumb. Well I'll be.
Seriously, very interesting article, Skipper. Interesting theory. For years many people have commented on how dangerous some religions are. Ain't it the truth.
So, if the mad bomber, or the wayward jet wipes out 'hovah HQ, many will be up the creek.
TR
I'm gonna make mince meat outta that Osama!
 
Satanus
Satanus 14 years ago


Food for thought. It would appear that faith is a disease of the psyche.
SS thinking
 
Abaddon
Abaddon 14 years ago


Nice post Skipper.
I actually think the scientific rationalism meme is doing damn fine work against the faith meme, considering it is a far younger meme.
Although numbers of faiths may be exploding, the percentage of the faithful compared to the population as a whole is at an all time low in the developed world.
Let's fast forward that a hundred years... the developing world is largely developed, educational standards and healthcare at year 2000 levels everywhere in the world, and often much better.
Result; the scientific rationalism meme will be in the ascendant. The faith meme will only be found fully expressed in isolated pockets that avoid contact with the rest of the world. These pockets might not be small populations; they could be quite large indeed.
Problem; take identical twins seperated at birth and reared seperately. If one is very religious, it is far more likely their twin is very religious than one would expect at random. The faith meme can exploit a genetic weakness that means some people are more susceptable than others to it.
Solution; Search me...

People living in glass paradigms shouldn't throw stones...
 
Room 215
Room 215 14 years ago


Most impressive, Mindchild!
Whether one cares to assail your hypothesis or not -- I think you deserve credit for it though it's derived from multiple sources --its unquestioned quality is yet another lamentable example of how the WTS over time has marginalized and alienated their best and brightest-- a sad, inexorable brain drain. They're retrenching to the lowest common denominator, creating an intellectual environment in which only mindless servility, can survive.
 
D wiltshire
D wiltshire 14 years ago


Mind child,
Can you give a very very short version of what you just posted.
say 50 word or less.
For those of us who don't particularly care for complicated conjecture, because they are prone to error.


If someone lived a trillion X longer than you, and had a billion X more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?
 
Martini
Martini 14 years ago


HI Mind,
Interesting info, nice read.
I agree that JW's(aka WTS) are a very dangerous religous CULT.
None of your scenerios would surprise me, a split sounds very likely.
Sad to think that are so many "sitting ducks" being exploited by faith, especially the WT brand.I'm glad to be released from this particuler religious meme,except I fear in the end we are all very much "ducks" just the same!
Martini
 
Mindchild
Mindchild 14 years ago


TR, thanks for the positive feedback and yes the lead poisoning might be one of the reasons why American school test scores lag behind several other nations for children. Even other industrialized countries like Japan have higher test scores because of their major reliance on mass transit systems and unleaded gasoline that made their environment cleaner for decades.
The real shocker though is that we are sitting on so many potential “time bombs” from the aggressive exploitation of capitalism that our major health problems are mostly attributable to pollution and genetic modification of food. Did you know that 1 out of 8 women can expect to get breast cancer now? Do you know how many thousands of people in this country have developed such a strong sensitivity to chemicals that they are virtually incapacitated unless they remain in places that there are no chemicals at all? Did you know that over 70% of all food on American store shelves are untested genetically modified food? Even more disturbing is the huge campaign of the food industry to discredit and hush researchers from studying if these foods are safe?
I think it is the same damn thing with religions, especially the totalizing type religions like the Witnesses. Nobody is going to believe the damage that can happen until it does happen..then it is too late.
Abaddon, that is a pretty optimistic picture you paint about civilization even being around a 100 years from now but I like the point you are making anyway about the evolutionary development of memes makes the scientific rationalization memes more prevalent than the faith memes and that the faith memes would congregate together in isolated pockets. Sounds like the old saying, birds of a feather flock together. I do think that as long as humans are around, there are going to be groups of them who prefer to drop out of the mainstream and we have seen many examples already of the group centralizations.
Perhaps the damage done by the faith meme can be minimalzed by the lifestyle they choose. For instance, the Amish for the most part choose a pastoral lifestyle and shun the modern world. As long as their memes are not threatened they can stabilize themselves in that reality tunnel. In some respects, a new problem similar to the faith meme will emerge from the development of the Virtual Reality World that will be just as prevalent as the Internet someday, perhaps more. The created realities possible by this will be so powerful and addictive, that the human brain will lose the ability to choose between them without training to avoid this. It all becomes more and more plausible for a Matrix style world to emerge in which we allow humans to commit consensual reality suicide and spend their entire lives in dream worlds.
Scary isn’t it? Shit, maybe we will all realize some day that we are actually in a VR world. Let me out dammit! I want to fly! Appreciated your comments dude.
Skipper
 
proplog2
proplog2 14 years ago


The real world effect of the JW belief system is a world wide organization of people who have overcome the damaging effects of evolutions most powerful yet most destructive survival technique - territoriality.
Jehovah's Witnesses are uniquely set up to survive world-wide upheaval and catastrophe.
Life began with "boundary". Nationalism is the final expression of boundary. Christ established an organization that transcended national boundaries. Unfortunately most Christian religions have fallen back to nationalism and that's what has made religion dangerous.
JW's have accomplished a miracle of unity because of their neutral stand in political matters. They are the carriers of the Jesus meme - "my kingdom is NO part of this world".
 
Jigrigger
Jigrigger 14 years ago


Great post!
What are your thoughts on "superstitions"? Do you think they are a mutation of the faith "virus"?
Jrig
 
Abaddon
Abaddon 14 years ago


D wiltshire; It's interesting you ask Skip' for a shorter version because complicated conjecture is "prone to error".
The Bible is so open to interpretation that it is likely to confuse people and make them... prone to error. This is logically inconsistant with a god who cares if one accepts that any errors in interpretation can have a delitrious effect on one's life.
Even if errors on one's own part cannot cause a delitrious effect on one's life, one reflects sadly on the fate of those who suffered because of other peoples' errors in interpretation... being burnt because someone disagrees with your opinion must suck.
So, why ask Skip' to give a shortened version of something that has no attached claims of accuracy or inspiration?
Surely it's better to ask god why a book with claims of accuracy and inspiration is open to finate interpretations AND is not the only book that makes such claims!
I've made this point (more or less) to you before, and felt I should point out you're asking of a mortal what I ask of god... lack of conjecture...

People living in glass paradigms shouldn't throw stones...
 
mommy
mommy 14 years ago


Skipper,
I have to say I am impressed, I was right in saying it would be a whammy of a post. I too liked what Abaddon had to say concerning the scientific rationalism meme combatting the faith meme. I would prefer that scenario over yours. Of course that is probably my faith meme talking
As far as a collapse of the religion of JW's I had not thought of the prospects of so many needing help. I know we see here on a smaller scale those who have a time regrouping, and starting over again, after they had left. To imagine that on a much larger scale is mind boggling. I agree that it will be a strain on any govermental body or community to provide services to those.
Not long ago I was of the mindset that those inside the religion especially the olders ones are better off inside, with their blinders on. They are content with their lifestyle and happy to have a wonderful promise of paradise. My mind had changed on this and I felt that it is important to tell others the truth about the religion they so blindly follow. After reading your article, I am not so sure.
Thanks you for taking the time and effort and posting this for us. I do appreciate it.
wendy
When I leave, you will know I have been here
 
Mindchild
Mindchild 14 years ago


Room215thanks for your feedback.
D wiltshire I debated giving a condensed version of my post as I think Abaddon has a good point. One of the key elements in the whole long post is that we can't just trust someone else to do our thinking for us. Even if that person claims to be scientific in their thinking or has impressive credentials, it doesn't mean squat. Look at how industry has used scientists to create what is called "junk science" to hide their shameful and dangerous memes. If you had faith in science or just the fact that someone did a scientific study, you could easily be duped. Even many professional people are duped this way. Otherwise how could these horrific things go on for so long? The important point is that nobody will do our thinking for us and we have to kick all the crap out of the way by doing our own research on the matter. This doesn't mean we have to be skeptical of absolutely everything someone tells us, but if there is probable cause for personal interests look out!
Having said this, here is only the previews of what I said above. You should find enough information in the article to judge the validity of the concept yourself and you can do further research with some of the references I quoted at the end.
ABSTRACT
Memes follow rules of Darwinian evolution and just like their biological counterparts, will do whatever they can to stay alive and to replicate, even if it means killing their host. Our world is full of these dangerous memes, which are ruthless in their exploitation. They exist in the economic systems, political systems and religious systems. Memes are what is responsible for most of the wars and killing in the world. The Jehovah’s Witnesses as a religion are a meme. They are only mildly dangerous now and only kill a small number of their hosts. When the circumstances arise where they become threatened with extinction, they will kill many more people. The moral: don’t be deceived by things that look too good to be true…they could well kill you.
Jigrigger You asked me what I thought about superstitions. I would think that these are simply memes also. There are many well known urban myths that are excellent examples of memes, like the old lady drying her poodle off in the microwave and killing it. These ideas survive because they are either shocking, easy to remember, or press our emoitonal buttons. Superstitions do exactly that as well. Even the JW's have superstitions. Can you think of any?
proplog2 Nationalism is certainly a meme, as well as prejudice. We can see all kinds of memes being expressed in both religious and other meta-meme contexts. Some other religious memes likewise have rejected the nationalism meme. There are many flavors of memes and mixing of them.
Martini your observation is appreciated. It is sad but true that we are currently all sitting ducks in a meme war. Just remember to duck.
Skipper
 
Mindchild
Mindchild 14 years ago


Wendy  Thanks for your encouraging words. I would certainly prefer Abaddons scenario over mine as well! I'm hoping that eventually we collectively can get a handle on how to prevent dangerous memes from multiplying out of control and killing their hosts.
One of the things that came as a shock to me in making my decision to leave the Borg was the huge coverup done by the WTS about the massive amount of mental illness that happened in the years after 1975 in the Jehovah's Witnesses. Some European mental institutions became so full of Witness patients that they literally started calling them Watchtower Houses! You can find scientific documents on several of the ex-JW websites that document the scope of this mental illness epidemic that happened but I watched it happen to some people I know. There was severe depression in the congregation I attended in several families. Many of the younger publishers got involved in drug use to deal with their own depression or engaged in extreme forms of sexuality (like becoming secret prostitutes just for the kick of it) and we even had one couple in our congregation that were found naked wandering in the streets and got arrested. I also remember one woman who came to our Kingdom Hall only wearing a slip, she forgot to put on her dress. I later even talked to two dubs who had been hospitalized for severe depression and suicidal behavior.
The most disgusting thing about the whole thing was that when I did research about this at a local college library and gave a report to the elders of my congregation about the growing epidemic of mental illness, they went to the college library and destroyed the references that I used. Literally tearing out the pages from the books. When I later confronted them with it, they claimed it was better to put a millstone around your own neck than stumble your brother and was charged with trying to stumble my brothers! This was incomprehensible to me then, but I understand why it happened now.
A thought about those inside be happy with their fantasy...well that is a tough one isn't it? We are supposed to believe that everyone has the right to freedom of worship. Bin Laden showed us that this isn't a smart strategy. Will the Watchtower teach us the same lesson?
Thanks for your input.
Skipper
 
D wiltshire
D wiltshire 14 years ago


MC,
So you are saying both atheist and belevers in god have memes and these memes fight to survive by killing those that disagree or challenge.
And that when killing those is not an option ridicule and other means are used.
So are you saying that evolutionist who are not open minded to new ideas that run contrary to their beleifs have this infection just as much as beleivers in creation?


If someone lived a trillion X longer than you, and had a billion X more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?
 
Satanus
Satanus 14 years ago


mindchild
I'm enjoying you ideas. I was just thinking of how the religious group known as the world wide church of god changed from a cult similar to jws to mainstream protestantism after the founder died. I would suggest that in some ways the wt is going in that direction as well: loosening field service requirements, allowing blood fractions, making voting a conscience matter in some countries, making political/religious/economic alliances/connections, efforts at political correctness, compromises of members. If this does turn out to be their future direction, it would be much less traumatic for all concerned.
Thanks SS
 
Mindchild
Mindchild 14 years ago


D wiltshire some memes do better than others for survival. The memes themselves of course have no more intelligence than a strand of DNA does, it is an emergent value, but essentially yes the more invested a collection of memes is (like a religion or belief system) the more they will fight for survival and the more importance they are to the hosts to fight and even kill for.
There are certainly scientists which include evolutionists who are not open minded. This may or may not be because of some type of "faith" in science or it may be because they have done enough research to satisfy themselves that the collection of data for evolution is strong enough that they don't need to consider a radically different hypothesis or meme set. Evolutionists and other scientists argue all the time about evolution but their arguements relate to the flow of memes inside the theory itself. In other words, they are arguing about the ways that evolution happens, and not disputing that it did happen.
Even so, many well respected scientists will occassionally release really radical memes which tend to shock other conservative scientists. There is great reluctance to accept these new memes in the scientific community as a whole, but because of the respect they have for the accomplishments of the scientist and the caliber of his or her work, they may give the new memes consideration whereas if these memes came from say either you or I, we wouldn't get the time of day. Scientists are human just like everyone else and fall prey to belief systems that are composed of meme sandwiches. Some scientists do really sloppy or inaccurate work, and some are even dishonest and fudge their results. Again, look at the motives behind these factors and you see the problem.
Seeing the problem though should help you see your own responsibility to learn truth telling skills and learn enough to accurately judge the validity yourself from published research. Forget reading popularized and watered down versions of research...go to the actual papers themselves and you can see the evidence and procedures they used, the references they give and so forth. This is the real power of science, and that of peer review as other scientists may challenge the results and do their own studies to determine if it is valid.
In reality, all "beliefs" are an infection and all of us have varying forms of beliefs we have collected in our experience in life that may or may not have validation. Most people in the American culture are aware that they exist in a world of half truths. None of us has the resources or the patience to verify each meme that comes our way, and we do the best we can in being skeptical of things until we see enough evidence from reliable studies to consider it valid until a better meme comes along and replaces it.
Saint Satan I do think that if there is no dramatic threats to the borgorganization and nothing that comes along to trigger their Armageddon fantasies...that this certainly could happen for the WTS as well. Memes don't normally get virulent until they are threatened for survival. No immediate threats suggests a mellowing out and a slower evolutionary adaption.
Skipper
 
D wiltshire
D wiltshire 14 years ago


Mind,
That was a reasonable post.
But I think in your conjecture you make some faulty assumptions and forget about alternatives to your senerios.
Example:
What is it that the virus doesn’t want you to discover?
In the last ten thousand years since first contact something remarkable has happened. Humans have developed skills that communicate, process, and store the virus with greater efficiency. First there was spoken language that allows us to organize our thoughts and name things. Then came written language that allowed us to pass our thoughts through time and space. The result of both of these is that the store of human memes and beliefs has virtually exploded.
This may or may not be true.
And this:
As the memes thrived, we thrived. The parasite allowed us to develop technology and sciences that extended our lives and gave us material goods that made life worth living. We returned the favor for the virus by increasing the growth of the memes. When the Industrial Revolution came along though, we humans started to become a risk to ourselves and to the virus. We became capable of wholesale destruction that could bring down civilization and all the memes that made it up. Remember what I said earlier about what parasites do when their host is threatened with destruction?
Do all viruses act to preserve the existence when danger threaten?
And you postulate that a virus knows it is threaten and knows it needs to act to preserve its existence.
I didn't know all viruses respond this way when threatened with destruction:
They reproduce massively.
So what will these memes do now?:
Do you think it is a coincidence that right after we developed nuclear weapons we entered into the Information Age? It was after we developed the tools to destroy ourselves that we developed the Information Superhighway and the global village that it created. In the late 1980’s there was a milestone. It was then that the total storage of knowledge contained in computers exceeded the amount stored in human brains. Does this make this human memes or just memes? The virus perpetuates itself through its hosts, and soon the new hosts will be computers that effectively foster reproduction of the virus much faster than humans ever dreamed possible.
Are you implying the memes will switch hosts and leave the human brain and find space on some hard drives to survive?

If someone lived a trillion X longer than you, and had a billion X more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?
 
Mindchild
Mindchild 14 years ago


Hi DW,
A few comments about your post and a few answers to your questions.
First, you should know that I presented a theory. A theory is simply a model that may or may not be the best reflection of reality. I used the anology of memes with their biological counterparts of genes and viruses. Nothing new there, but I extended the anology more than others did. This was also written for a general audience and not as a college thesis or for presenting it to the scientific community.
Second, what I did was infect you and everyone else that read it with memes. In some individuals, these new memes might be unplatable or totally alien whereas in others they will be more acceptable based on their own world view.
Third, I presented the information in a storyline that gave a continued appeal (or tried to) with the intended auidence, in this case ex-JW's) Some compromises were made doing this vs. if I were trying to argue points with someone.
You asked some questions also. In terms of viruses or microbes multiplying themselves massively when faced with destruction, no not all do this but it is a documented behavior of some pathogens. As far as I know, the emergent behavior of viruses is survival regardless of the mechanism by which the DNA or RNA uses to replicate itself. You need to remember that viruses don't collectively "know" on a group level that "the host is dying...everyone multiply like crazy." Rather, it involves causative dynamics and opportunity. Look at the example I gave again of the host dying and the Ecoli multiplying. Do Ecoli have esp? No of course not. What happens is that certain changes occur in the biological enviornment that enable the bacteria to massively reproduce. The resulting reproduction of bacteria can easily kill the host. In the same way, memes exploit opportunity. They don't have a collective intelligence that allows them to think conciously, they individually emerge as a result of opportunities that come their way.
Look at the example of the lead industry meme package expanding because of the corruption of politicians and others made it possible. If there were no dishonest and foolish politicians, we wouldn't have pollution. See how the memes took advantage of that?
You said something very interesting when you asked:

Are you implying the memes will switch hosts and leave the human brain and find space on some hard drives to survive?
I was wondering if anyone was going to pick up on that! I'm making the claim that they will both use the new hosts (which will be intelligent machines that create themselves) and that their memetic evolution will be millions of times faster than in humans. When AI arrives in a few years, it will be able to communicate with other mindchildren at incomprehensible rates by our standards and undergo social and memetic evolution at blinding speed. They should be able to accomplish over 10,000 years of cultural evolution in a few years because humans think at 300 mph and they will think at the speed of light. If their growth is unchecked...they will become Gods.
Skipper
 
lauralisa
lauralisa 14 years ago


"The prophet is not diverted by illusions of past, present and future. The fixity of language determines such linear distinctions. Prophets hold a key to the lock in a language. The mechanical image remains only an image to them. This is not a mechanical universe. The linear progression of events is imposed by the observer. Cause and effect? That's not it at all. The prophet utters fateful words. You glimpse a thing "destined to occur." But the prophetic instant releases something of infinite portent and power. The universe undergoes a ghostly shift. Thus, the wise prophet conceals actuality beyond shimmering labels. The unititialted then believe the prophetic language is ambiguous. The listener distrusts the prophetic messenger. Instinct tells you how the utterance blunts the power of such words. The best prophets lead you up to the curtain and let you peer through for yourself."


The Stolen Journals
Frank Herbert, May, 1981
 

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JW's one of the Most Dangerous Religions?
by Mindchild 14 years ago 27 Replies latest 14 years ago   jw friends
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Bang
Bang 14 years ago


Mindchild,
As you stated, we can't trust or have faith in those who claim to have the science or the religion, i.e. such 'facts' are in a way uncomprehensive or unwhole (unholy). We take in the information, but it is only within Us, within our complete human condition, to know what is actually 'whole' (the kingdom). 'Faith' is in what's wholly 'known' but yet not seen - a projection in evolution - it is what is understood in heart and sought by mind (love). What is understood by mind, 'the facts', isn't faith, but a meme, or a demon if you will. The notion of 'demon' comes from the idea of knowing something, falsely informed, led by the mind it seems.
It's obviously erroneous to call information, 'knowledge', as information doesn't make us discerning or sagacious, and certainly not heroes. As a house divided cannot stand, information will come and kill off information, or meme will kill off meme (demon against demon). Religions such as the JWs (better bible understanders?), or other information types of religion will be killed off, absorbed, mutated, whatever. That which is whole is always defended from demon or 'meme' attack, and what is whole, what outlasts all virus mutations? - Love, kind deeds, unselfish movements of the heart, the heart that 'knows' what is right for life.
As humans endowed with life and spirit, we use this more courageous 'knowledge' to evolve further by obeying that which is 'whole', disregarding the requirements of the 'meme' - humans stand on 'holy ground' when they realise they are loved for no reason. The virus doesn't understand this, as can be seen in the religion of the WT.
Humans will evolve further and memes (demons and such 'facts') will weaken and be forced to mutate to compensate - the west is attacked by mutating memes as conditions such as social democracy further threaten the more virulent meme survival, but the memes can mutate and become almost uncurable when selfinterested or synthetic 'love' is the condition of growth.
Bang
 
Satanus
Satanus 14 years ago


Mindchild
I enjoy this thread. I was wondering if you had thought about what the ideal state should be with regard to memes. For instance, would the ideal human be meme free, or would it be best for him/her to be run by an 'ideal' meme? Next question, what would a meme free person be like? Would he be religion/dogma/politic/faith free? Would he be a person who likes himself, who is generally happy and has a general liking for his fellow persons, kind of like an amiable intelligent animal? If evolution is true, then that is what we are anyway. Would he be agnostic as regards everything eccept what he can readily sense? I'm attempting to take an objective look at this issue.
Thanks SS
 
Mindchild
Mindchild 14 years ago


Interesting quote LauraLisa
Bang...think in terms of using "truth telling tools" instead of our human abilities to discern facts. Our brains stopped evolving over 10,000 years ago and as all of us know we can be easily tricked, misled, and scammed pretty darn eaisly. Once you learn to use dispassionate and neutral tools like these (say mathematics and the hard sciences) then you can have a clearer picture of when it is propaganda and when it is factual.
You are right that information is not knowledge. Knowledge is the application of information. Wisdom is a intelligent use of knowledge.
While I can relate to your example from my own previous life experiences I don't think emotional factors such as love, kindness, and so forth win the day. We might want to think they will but that is just more emotional thinking on our part. If love can do all things, why hasn't it stopped the mass slaughter of mankind and the continued rape and pillage of the earth? Love itself is a meme, one that is biologically programmed because it had survival value. It is clearly useful but it by itself won't solve the problems of dangerous memes. The sad part is that we have seen the enemy and it is us...we are attacking ourselves with the memes. We don't need an outside source of demons or other nations when we do so effectively in wiping ourselves out.
Saint Satan...I don't think it is possible to be meme free unless you were in some kind of mental state that didn't allow any new thinking or communication with other memes. MemesRus. What we might be able to do, if we collectively smarten up is to tag dangerous meme complexes and discredit them. However our entire way of life in the world both in religious and economic systems is designed to control and compete for our minds. It won't give up the higher ground without a huge fight.
I think all of us have a multitude of memes in our minds that are both valid reflections of reality and those who pretend to be. A lot of these little memes are not all that important in influencing our lives. Consider the jingle...Gilligan's Island. That is a meme. It doesn't really do anything except promote the TV series that it is associated with. It probably won't have much influence on your life, unless you are someone like me who wants to live on Gilligan's Island.  We would do well for ourselves to monitor the memes that are dangerous to us and those that hold us back from our abilities and our growth. These memes range from our views on sex to politics, on our role in society to the foods we eat.
Can we be happy being "belief" free or a close approximation to it? Maybe. There are several things that go into making someone happy. The most important of which is their own choice to be happy. Nobody can make them happy but themselves. Is that a meme? Probably is but I think it is worth keeping around...don't you?
Kind Regards,
Skipper
 
Satanus
Satanus 14 years ago


Mindchild
>Can we be happy being "belief" free or a close approximation to it? >Maybe.
Thanks for putting up this thread. You are probably right. I guess i was exploring the taoist concept of living in the moment, from moment to moment. The realisation that everything is fleeting, as time itself, thus accepting and letting go. We are all in some type of flowing time/event river. Learning how it works, one blends into the workings, rather than fighting it. Have you ever looked at the tao te ching? Just wondering out in type.
SS
 
cat1759
cat1759 14 years ago

Now I have to print this out and go back through everything. This is to much work right now.
I agree with your theory. Viruses try to attack and usually do succed unless the host is healthy. How many of us are truely not healthy in a mental capacity.
I hate science, now I know why! You expect my brain to pick up everything that was posted? I know have to print off and take it the bathroom with me next time so I can have some peace and think about what was being said.
cathy
 
Erich
Erich 14 years ago


mindchild wrote:


...In perhaps less than ten years we will have AI’s as intelligent if not more so than man, and in another 40 years, they should each equal the entire human race in neural abilities. They too will have mind viruses. They may well try to end all the things that we troublesome humans do and think that harm ourselves and also threatens the global store of knowledge. These successor hosts to memes may well eliminate the risk posed by humans all together and then we may have our Armageddon after all.



Yeah! I hope these robots come soon!
For one reason only:
THEY WILL GO TO DESTROY ALL EVOLUTION-THEORY-SHIT !
All evolutionists here, please listen: These transhuman robots ("successors") will certainly have enough sensorium to read all old books, magazines and recordings about their origin, even in 10 000 years after have exterminated the mankind... They will know, that they were made by intelligent beings long time ago; and as a consequence, they certainly never get to the conclusion they were made by "evolution".
6 month ago, I discussed with members of an "extroprian league" (a society supporting the idea of "transhuman beings") and they had got no possibility to answer contrary.mindchild wrote:


...In perhaps less than ten years we will have AI’s as intelligent if not more so than man, and in another 40 years, they should each equal the entire human race in neural abilities. They too will have mind viruses. They may well try to end all the things that we troublesome humans do and think that harm ourselves and also threatens the global store of knowledge. These successor hosts to memes may well eliminate the risk posed by humans all together and then we may have our Armageddon after all.



Yeah! I hope these robots come soon!
For one reason only:
THEY WILL GO TO DESTROY ALL EVOLUTION-THEORY-SHIT !
All evolutionists here, please listen: These transhuman robots ("successors") will certainly have enough sensorium to read all old books, magazines and recordings about their origin, even in 10 000 years after have exterminated the mankind... They will know, that they were made by intelligent beings long time ago; and as a consequence, they certainly never get to the conclusion they were made by "evolution".
6 month ago, I discussed with members of an "extroprian league" (a society supporting the idea of "transhuman beings") and they had got no possibility to proof the contrary.
 
Mindchild
Mindchild 14 years ago


Erich...it looks to me like you have a passionate view of anit-evolution but regretablly your arguement here is probably wrong as well.
While the "spark of life" may be started by men in regards to machines, they will create themselves much better than any human could design them by using evolution. Machines will build better machines that build better machines that in turn build even better and more sophisticated machines. Evolution will be there and will always be there for every organism in the universe, silcone based or carbon based and will always forever be in your face.
Evolution is a fact. The way that evolution happens can be debated until the cows come home, and there may not be many of those left either.
Skipper
 
Satanus
Satanus 14 years ago


I was wondering if there are memes or meme like characteristics in nature. Take for instance a wolf pack. It is a pack because of their tendency to cooperate in defence, hunting etc. Could this tendency be driven by a meme? Take an ant colony. The queen ridgidly fulfills her roll. The drones do their small bit, then obediently die. The female neuter workers all loyally/self sacrificedly serve the interests of the colony. I would suggest there could be memes at wok here as well.
SS
 

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skip starbuck aka mindchild .
many years ago on a spring day to pleasant to be outdoors pioneering, something strange happened to two jehovahs witnesses.
have you ever wondered exactly what it was inside religion that makes people kill each other?



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Hello everybody!
by roberto avon 11 hours ago 10 Replies latest an hour ago   jw friends
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roberto avon
roberto avon 11 hours ago
Hello Everybody,
I've been lurking for a while and since I really adore reading the biggest part of the posts, especially this italian ( american) guy about his experiences at Bethel in the 70's, I feel a little bit guilty for not participating with my contribute. I am really so sorry for the people that are suffering because of the Wts.
My story is a " happy ending " story, I married a Jw almost 30 years ago and I am here to tell that we are still very happy. She is very liberal and our 3 kids are " normal ". Till 2 weeks ago maybe I was convinced that being Catholic , Mormon or Jw was " almost " the same ( of course I did some research and came to another conclusion ).
It is not!!!! My father in law died 1 week ago because 2 years ago he refused a surgery ( bladder cancer ) with the risk of needing a blood tranfusion.
Afer his funeral we went to my wife's brother home where we had a meal with the other relatives ( also non jw's ) and there was a prayer to Jehovah. We looked at eachother ( the non jw's ) and I immagine we were thinking ; " how can you thank someone for taking away 5 years of your father's life ??"

 +12 / -0
Magnum
Magnum 10 hours ago
Hello. Glad your story has a happy ending and that your kids are "normal". Are you in the U.S.? If not, what country?
 +1 / -0
DesirousOfChange
DesirousOfChange 10 hours ago

Welcome aboard!
Doc

 +1 / -0
flipper
flipper 9 hours ago

ROBERTO- Welcome to the board. My deepest condolences on the loss of your father-in-law. The WT Society and Jehovah's Witnesses are a criminal organization in that thousands of JW's have died worldwide due to the " no blood transfusion " policies. And yet- WT leaders will get away scot free without paying for their crimes of murder from such policies. WT leaders should be brought up on crimes against mankind for not only their blood transfusion policies - but also their faulty child abuse policies.
I'm glad you are here with us and very happy to learn that your wife and children are a family that's still intact and thriving positively. Good for you my friend. Others aren't so lucky. Count yourself fortunate ! Look forward to hearing more from you. Take care, Peace out, Mr. Flipper
 +1 / -0
Zana
Zana 9 hours ago

Hi roberto,
I remember your interesting posts on my "raising kids"-thread a while back. I guess because of our liberal JW wives it took both of us a little longer than usual to figure out it's a cult and not a religion.
What is your wife's thinking about the blood issue and her dad's decision to not have surgery? Does she herself carry a no-blood-card?

 +1 / -0
roberto avon
roberto avon 5 hours ago
Zana, wow....., you really got the point!!! Bravissima ( I am Italian ) !. It is all about the blood issue, of course I could write a novel about it but it would be boring. When for the first time and that is two years ago my wife heard that her father needed a surgery with a risk of a blood transfusion she told me and tried to convince her father that he had to accept the surgery and eventual blood transfusions and she was very well aware that she could have been disfellowshipped for this. She has an " expired " blood transfusion card as she said to me. Two or three years ago she had a surgery for herself and for the first time in my life I realised what it meant being married to a Jw. Till then she always told everybody that for the kids I was the one who had to decide. When she had the surgery she told the doctors she didn't want a blood transfusion but she didn't inform her congregation about her surgery, only my daughter ( atheist ) and I were surveying her. Everything went well but for me it was as waking up for the first time and that I had been soooo lucky till that time
 +3 / -0
crazy_flickering_light
crazy_flickering_light 5 hours ago
Welcome!
 
MarkofCane
MarkofCane 5 hours ago
Welcome, Roberto you are among friends.
 
rebelfighter
rebelfighter  2 hours ago

Welcome Roberto to the forum. What a very sad story for your father in law. You did not give his age at the time of the bladder cancer diagnosis. I was 50 when I received the same horrible news and 75% of my bladder was covered in tumors. I did not require a transfusion and I have been cancer free for 15 years.
 
wannaexit
wannaexit 2 hours ago

Ciao Roberto
Enjoyed your posts.
anche io parlo italiano
 
LisaRose
LisaRose an hour ago

Welcome, I am glad you and your family are doing well.
Lisa🌹
 

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GB says they are GOD, check this out.......
by Freeandclear 11 hours ago 7 Replies latest 5 hours ago   jw friends
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Freeandclear
Freeandclear 11 hours ago

So I have been watching the ARC videos on youtube with Geoffrey Jackass, er I mean, Jackson and a couple of very powerful things struck me.
Forgive me if these have been covered before but...did anyone else notice he says several times that the GB are the "Guardians of Doctrine?" haha G.O.D. Do we really have any further need for witnesses!? Luke 22:71 They really have made themselves GOD.....
Also, I was absolutely shocked to hear his "testimony" at 20:34 in the first day of the hearing where he is directly asked if the GB see's themselves as God's spokesman on Earth and he blatantly lies and says that would be presumptuous of us..... OMFG really???? This is the main tenant of your whole belief system, and to say outright "Who us? No no....that would be so presumptuous of us.......Oh wait, pardon us as we make up random bs 'rules' which affect every JW on the planet and fuck with their families and their lives....."
This shit makes me sick!
https://youtu.be/erWV8YnTFto?t=1100

https://youtu.be/erWV8YnTFto?t=1233




 +2 / -0
nonjwspouse
nonjwspouse 11 hours ago
"sigh" and those who refuse to accept reality will call this theocratic warfare. "The ARC was not entitled to know the truth"....... ugh

 +1 / -0
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 10 hours ago


Also, I was absolutely shocked to hear his "testimony" at 20:34 in the first day of the hearing where he is directly asked if the GB see's themselves as God's spokesman on Earth and he blatantly lies and says that would be presumptuous of us....
Is it a Lie?..He never answered the Question..
Is it presumptuous?..Of course it is!..
More likely than not,the S.O.B is Gloating..

.

......Are We Gods Spokesmen On Earth?..

..................DUMB ASSES!!..LOL!!..
Image result for watchtower geoffrey jackson


 +1 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 10 hours ago

The WTS is an organization that was built upon lies and corruption which facilitated the self empowerment of the top controlling men. In reflection they are not any different to other so called spirit guided self anointed proclaiming men who built up a following around themselves as well.

Reverend Sun Myun Moon', David Koresh, the Pope and the list goes on.
Interesting that all these men say they are god's chosen spirit anointed ones but all say and teach different doctrines and all say the other is a false teacher . .......ummmmm ?

 
Wild_Thing
Wild_Thing 10 hours ago

You mean ... they LIED??????? No! I can't believe it!!!
 +1 / -0
LostGeneration
LostGeneration 6 hours ago

 where he is directly asked if the GB see's themselves as God's spokesman on Earth and he blatantly lies and says that would be presumptuous of us.....
That too struck me as the lowest point to which these guys will stoop. I pointed out on a thread recently that I found it similar to Peter's denial that he was with Jesus. I mean, if he truly believed lives were at stake, he would have used that opportunity to forcefully tell the world right then and there that they better follow the supposed faithful and discreet slave if they were to save their life. Instead, he ducked and dodged.
Another poster rightfully pointed out that Peter wept bitterly after his denial. Something I doubt GJack did on the plane ride back to NYC
 +3 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 6 hours ago

Yes!
And those moments were the "straw that broke the camels back" for SO many witnesses and faders....
So too were the lies from Vin Toole (the WT lawyer) who claimed he had "never heard of the expression "Theocratic Warfare"
 +1 / -0
James Mixon
James Mixon 5 hours ago

Are they stupid or what. From the "All Scripture Is Inspired of God and Beneficial" on
page 9 under Line of Communication, "God's holy spirit is used as the medium of communication, carries it earthward; God's prophet on earth(and who is this prophet) receives the message and then
publishes it for the benefit of God's people.
Jehovah at times chose to use spirit messengers, or angels to carry some communications from heavens to his servants on the earth.
So who in the hell are receiving these messages? Or who in the hell believe they are the only ones communicating
with GOD? It does sound dumb to admit, God only speak to me....
 +1 / -0

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Can I pick up a New World Translation from the JW London head office?
by Camperdown9 10 hours ago 15 Replies latest an hour ago   watchtower bible
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Camperdown9
Camperdown9 10 hours ago

Hi
I'm an Anglican and not a Jehovahs Witness. What I dislike about lots of church congregations is their readiness to make unpleasant and unhelpful comments about other Christian groups.
Recently someone in a church tried to tell me a little about the views of Jehovahs Witnesses. This was not done in a positive way, however it got me thinking that I would like to learn more about the beliefs of the JW church.
So far I have down loaded the book "What does the bible really teach" and I'm about half way through. I have also got the New World Translation as an app,but I would like a paper version of this bible. I tried to find one I could buy online and then noticed that it's only available from the JW directly.
So my question is...if I go to your office in north London will I be able to pick up a copy?
if not how do I get one?
thanks
Alex
 
GodZoo
GodZoo 10 hours ago

Positive way? How can you expect positive comments about a cult? Are there good sides?
 +2 / -0
No Apologies
No Apologies 9 hours ago

You should spend a little more time learning about them by browsing here and other internet sites. If you contact them directly you will become a recruiting target.
No Apologies
 +1 / -0
freddo
freddo 9 hours ago

Hello!
This forum is open to Jehovah's Witnesses and non-Jehovah's Witnesses so welcome.
It is largely inhabited by ex-jehovah's witnesses, jehovah's witnesses who are trying to disengage from the religion without losing their family by being shunned and by troubled jehovah's witnesses who are sick and fed up of any or all or more than failed predictions/expectations, child abuse mishandling and thinly-veiled hints and requests for money.
In answer to your question - yes you could get a Bible from their London HQ, or you could go up to one of their literature trolleys in market squares across the UK and ask for one, or into a Kingdom Hall and ask for one.
You will be given one without charge.
Alternatively go on to jw.org and it is there on line on the home page for you to click on.
Come back here any time if you have a question and you will get honest answers.


 
Sugar Shane
Sugar Shane 9 hours ago

Umm, Camperdown. Do you watch the news often? Here's a clip from the US last year:
http://youtu.be/OPcYn4AiwQE
I suggest you tread carefully with the Witnesses. There are hundreds of more links like the one above. Just do a simple search.
Regarding the book, "What does the Bible Really Teach," I suggest you read the point by point response to this book, by Wilber Lingle. Here's a link to a site with his work, available for free downlowd (or viewable on the website).
https://archive.org/details/ResponseToWhatDoesTheBibleReallyTeach
 
Sugar Shane
Sugar Shane 9 hours ago

Oh, and this:
jwfacts.com
 +1 / -0
JWdaughter
JWdaughter 8 hours ago
Be careful what you ask for. Cults manipulate people.
 
sparrowdown
sparrowdown 7 hours ago

Jehovahs witnesses have based their whole religion on making "unpleasant and unhelpful comments about other christian groups" they believe that JWs are the one true religion and all non-jehovah's witnesses will be destroyed by God and Jesus at a global apocalypse, so.... if that's not your thing......
Why do you want to know more about this group anyway, are you thinking of joining or are you just curious?
Just asking not judging btw.
 
jookbeard
jookbeard 7 hours ago
members of the WTS and their literature are just as and even more judgemental and condemnatory in as strong language that can be possible,look at their mags and literature over the years in their attacks on the so called "churches of Christendom" which they dont realise they are part of, decades of child abuse cover ups, shunning and the ripping apart of families, untold deaths from their blood ban policy, and general lies and cover ups in their never ending changing doctrine, truly dishonest, do you think there is anything positive from that small list? If you want to obtain a bible from them your best option is to visit a local kingdom hall on a meeting night and get one.They are a dangerous high control toxic cult and one of the very worst.
 
Camperdown9
Camperdown9 4 hours ago

Hi All
Thanks for all your comments.
No I'm not thinking of joining I'm just interested to know more about them. I have heard a few comments from people at church who have views on JW's but I'm not sure if they have ever done any research themselves. Think it's more like people passing on hearsay.
JW seam to have people everywhere in London at the moment handing out awake and the watchtower. For a while it felt like they were at every underground station. They seam to be the most visible religious group in London at the moment. (In fact recently I don't recall seeing anyone other that the JW's out on the streets )
I'm kind of interested in bible translation and would like to read the NWT and compare it with the NRSV or ESV.
Anglican churches in the UK tend to be very different from each other. One might have only male clergy with traditional hymns following a strict order of service and reading from the KJV. Another might only have praise music with the words on a screen no real fixed order of service, readings from the NIV and people waiving flags. I'm a little envious of churches like the Roman Catholic's and the JW's who seam to follow a set uniform plan.
The JW's wouldn't want me and I have no desire to join. I guess there are a bit like the Mormons, everyone has heard of them, few have even had there followers call at their homes but few (including me) know anything about them.
alex
 +2 / -0
jookbeard
jookbeard 4 hours ago
they started a "cart" campaign a few years back to replace partly the pointless waste of time that " door knocking" used to be that what was they were infamous for, they generally just stand/sit around waiting for passers by to take the mags/brochures but in all honesty its just as pointless and an and even bigger waste of time, the jw's generally just sit around gossiping and playing with their phones, in a few years time I doubt you will see these carts at train stations /town centres etc, I sense you know a little bit more about them though than perhaps you are revealing.
 
LisaRose
LisaRose 3 hours ago

The Jehovah's Witnesses believe we are living in the last days, that soon God will destroy most of mankind except Jehovah's Witnesses. They believe seven men in Brooklyn represent and speak for God and the only way to survive the coming apocalypse is to do everything they say. Their chronology is based on some complicated interpretation of the old testament that, based on the date of the fall of Jerusalem in 607 that supposedly means the last days started in 1914. They used to think Armageddon was going to be 1914, but when that didn't happen they said it was the start of the last days. They then predicted other dates, most notably 1975, but when that didn't happen they just started saying it was right around the corner. I am 61, but was told not to go to college as I didn't have time for a career in this system. The date for the fall of Jerusalem they use is not supported by any reputable bible scholar. Their New World Translation is just a copy of another translation that has been a altered to fit JW theology. They add the name of God to the New Testament with no justification whatsoever, it's not in the original text.
They are a cult, they use cult mind control and use fear, obligation and guilt to control people. People are not allowed to talk to former member and there is no easy way to leave. If you leave and decide to vote, or celebrate Christmas or any of a number of other trivial, but forbidden things you will be disfellowshipped and your family and friends will not be a allowed to talk to you.
Yes, there is uniformity, but it's not a good thing. You are expected to attend two meetings a week, two hours each. Programs are predictable to the point of boring, there are rote question and answer sessions where there is only one correct answer. You are also expected to preach each week. You must report your time, if you do not preach each month you will be counseled by an elder. You are not supposed to watch certain movies, listen to certain music, go to college or have friends outside the organization. You are discouraged from personal pursuits, wanting to advance in your career, have hobbies or any kind of life that interferes with meeting attendance and preaching
They have a record of hiding and protecting child molesters, they are currently being investigated by the Austrialian Royal Commission. They require two witnesses to do anything in the case of an accusation, since child abusers seldom have extra witnesses it means that most get away with no punishment, the law is not called unless it is required, sometimes not even then. Victims are told to leave it in Jehovah's hands and they are discouraged from saying anything, even threatened. Having a history of child abuse does not disqualify you from being an elder.
They lie about and hide their past, and are constantly changing and flip flopping on doctrine. The Governing body must be obeyed without question, even though some of them seem quite nutty, obsessing over "homosexual tight pants" and spanx, which is an undergarment but which they apparently think are yoga pants. One of them has a very odd demeanor, over enunciating words and having exaggerated facial expressions.
If all that sounds good to you, then go for it, I am sure they will be happy to have you, but don't say I didn't warn you.
 +3 / -0
stan livedeath
stan livedeath 3 hours ago

it might be slightly interesting to get your opinion of the watchtower version of the bible. its basicly the same as any other english translation--full of nightmare stories--the only real difference is you will keep finding the word " jehovah" inserted here there and everywhere. but--if that annoys you--just substitute the name " mickey mouse".
oh--by the way i havent had any form of bible in my house for 40 odd years. no need for any invisible friend in my life.
 +1 / -0
Hadriel
Hadriel 3 hours ago

@Camperdown9
Be clear I've not done this on a professional level by any stretch but have been studying Koine Greek for some time now. The problem with the New World Translation is that it adds/removes without noting the adding or removing. Particularly as it pertains to Jesus there are many changes that are not supported by the original text. Speaking of primarily the Greek Scriptures. I'm certain after much study that the NWT is simply not accurate. When it veers from the JW taught doctrine the bible itself, regardless of the warning in Revelation, it is changed to support it.
 +1 / -0
Wonderment
Wonderment 2 hours ago

Camperdown9: "I'm an Anglican and not a Jehovahs Witness. What I dislike about lots of church congregations is their readiness to make unpleasant and unhelpful comments about other Christian groups."
I agree with you there.
However, asking most ex_JWs how they feel about the religion, will most likely get you a flood of the most disparaging criticisms one could ever come up with.
I too have a problem with the religion. I have been victimized for abandoning the JW religion. My family have deserted me. Nevertheless, I can still see some of the good things they do well. I venture to say that every group of believers do some things right and many things wrong. The JWs are no exception. A main problem with the JWs has to do with their shunning policies, and the control the leadership exerts over their followers. In that sense, the JWs are a dangerous religion.

About the NWT, there are all sorts of opinions about it, mostly bad. But I feel those people who put it down so harshly reflect their own religious bias as well. Someone here said of the JW Bble that, "Their New World Translation is just a copy of another translation that has been a altered to fit JW theology." The first part of this statement is simply not true. The burden is on the person to prove such allegation. On the second part of the statement, I agree that the NWT has been adapted to fit JW theology. What a lot of people fail to realize though, is that just about every Bible translation out there has been adapted to fit the theology of the translators, whoever they may be. This outcome is often not deliberate, but a consequence of their educational background.

I am glad to see someone open enough to query others about another faith. In the end, I advise anyone to be careful of whatever claims any religious group make of other faiths, and be willing to analyze different opinions on the matter before reaching a personal conclusion.
Good wishes!

 
pepperheart
pepperheart an hour ago
Also they do not belive in the trinity and lots of other things that all christians belive

 

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CLAM - JUNE 2016
by Nicholaus Kopernicus 8 hours ago 7 Replies latest 23 minutes ago   watchtower bible
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Nicholaus Kopernicus
Nicholaus Kopernicus 8 hours ago

First week focuses on utilizing videos in combination with tracts. For the WTBTS, this is a low cost approach to placements and prosyletising.





Second week focuses on those who are ill. This is somewhat surprising in that the subject was discussed recently in the WT study (Dec 15 2015 edition - "Jehovah Will Sustain You") considered at the end of February this year.




Third week focuses on Psalms 45-51 with the theme "Jehovah Will Not Reject a Broken Heart". This is a truly amazing theme for the teaching/writing committee to put forward for consideration. I say this because of the copious examples of the WTBTS and its congregation officers engaging in the very antithesis of the stated theme. How many times have we heard of individuals approaching their BoE's for help - especially in the case of a victim of a child abuser only for that victim to be deprecated, marginalised, and worse. How many times have we heard of individuals being victims of bullying BoE's and their broken heart demolished into splinters. This subject being highlighted is a jaw dropping surprise for me. If anyone has a broken heart, it is best not to disclose it to the BoE or agents of the WTBTS as they are trained to get you to repeat that you are an integrity keeper, and then furnish them with coffee and cookies.

This third week also has an item called "The Kingdom - 100 Years and Counting". The page confirms that the book God's Kingdom Rules! will be the study item at the CBS from Sept 19. This makes me glad that the CBS is now at the end of the meeting. I can just leave the meeting and escape this historical revisionism.

Fourth week focuses on Psalms 52-59 with the theme - "Throw Your Burden on Jehovah". That's more like it. This is consistent with Mark 12:28-30 - "Now one of the scribes that had come up and heard them disputing, knowing that he had answered them in a fine way, asked him: “Which commandment is first of all?” 29 Jesus answered: “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah, 30 and you must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind and with your whole strength.’
 +1 / -0
fleshyheadedmutant
fleshyheadedmutant 7 hours ago
What is CLAM?

 
sparrowdown
sparrowdown 7 hours ago
CLAM = Cristian Life and Ministry meeting
 
fleshyheadedmutant
fleshyheadedmutant 7 hours ago

Oh-this must be the old service meeting. WTS and its continued BS. Thanks.
What is CBS?

 
GrreatTeacher
GrreatTeacher 7 hours ago
CBS: Congregation Book Study
 
fleshyheadedmutant
fleshyheadedmutant 7 hours ago

Thanks so much for your replies.
It has been over ten years since I have been to a meeting.
I am so thankful to be able to think for myself now and not try to keep up with all the changes.
Ah, the sweet air of freedom!

 +3 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 6 hours ago

"the kingdom 100 years and counting"?
Huh?
Wasn't there a big deal about it being 100 years over 2 years ago? (1914 - 2014)
Now we can still use that hype and just add the words "and counting" and that should buy us another decade or so before anyone sees the irony...
 
pepperheart
pepperheart 23 minutes ago
more ct backs cheeper for the borg in the long run if people show videos rather than give magazines etc

 

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Please, tell me.
by andrewlya a day ago 24 Replies latest 18 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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andrewlya
andrewlya a day ago

Hi, I am a Christian and I would like to know Jehovas Witness's belief in God and whether you believe Jesus is God. Please, any statements back up with Biblical verses,thank you and God bless, in Jesus's name.
I am new on here, so please be patient with me :smile:

 +1 / -0
LostGeneration
LostGeneration a day ago

We are mostly Ex JWs here.
JWs do not believe Jesus is God. They believe he is a creation of God (Jehovah). Not many active JWs here but if one comes along they can give you their scriptural justification.
 +5 / -0
cofty
cofty a day ago

Welcome andrewlya.
JWs would verses such as
"the father is greater than I" John 14:28
"the head of the christ is god" 1Cor.11:3
Other proof texts are more easily refuted but these two are substantial.
One other thought that I used to rely on was that bible writers refer to "the god and father of Jesus". Therefore Jesus can't be god in the same sense as the father.
 
OneEyedJoe
OneEyedJoe a day ago

What LG said. They believe Jesus is "the firstborn of all creation" and the son of God. By virtue of the fact that he's the son, he cannot be equal to god. Furthermore the JW bible renders John 1:1 as "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god." Note they change this verse from what most translations use (the word was god) to "the word was a god" to imply that this is a statement of his status as a spirit being that is more powerful than a human, but not THE god. Whether this is a faithful translation or not I'll leave up to you to determine. But it is known that the JWs have modified their version of the bible to suit their doctrine, so it wouldn't surprise me if this were a case of that.
Regardless, I wouldn't worry about comparing your religion to this cult. Without knowing your denomination, I can still pretty much guarantee you're better off where you are than in the JW cult. If you're trying to learn about JWs to help someone out of the cult, I would start somewhere other than doctrine.
 +3 / -0
Vanderhoven7
Vanderhoven7 a day ago

Here is a pretty basic study I found on the Trinity; not sure who prepared it.

The Bible clearly teaches, and the Doctrine of the Trinity asserts each of these 5 truths:

1) There is only ONE God and God is one (Principle: The Oneness, and Unity of God) Deuteronomy 4:35, 6:4; Isaiah 43:10, 46:9; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 1 Timothy 2:5

2) God the Father is fully God (Principle: The Fatherhood of God and the Deity of the Father) John 6:27; 1 Corinthians 8:6; Colossians 1:3

3) Jesus Christ, the Son, is fully and really God, and he is also fully and really Man (Principle: the True Humanity and True Deity of Jesus Christ) John 1:1-18; John 8:58; John 20:28-29; Romans 9:5; Colossians 1:15-19; Philippians 2:5-11; Hebrews 1:3, 8-12; Titus 2:11-13; Revelation 7:15-17

4) The Holy Spirit is a PERSON (a "He", not an "it") and he is fully and really God (Principle: The Personhood and Deity of the Holy Spirit) Genesis 1:2; Matthew 10:19-20; Matthew 12:31-32; John 4:23-24; John 14:16-17; John 15:26; Acts 3:4; 1Corinthians 12:4-6,11; 2 Corinthians 3:17

5) There is a DISTINCTION between the Persons of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (The Father is NOT the Son, and the Son IS NOT the Spirit, and the Spirit IS NOT the Father) and yet we are not to understand THREE Gods, but only ONE God. (Principle: Distinctions between the Persons of the Godhead) John 1:1-2; John 14:16-17, 26-26; John 15:26; John 16:13-15,25-28; John 17:1-5; John 20:17-18


Each of these truths is clearly taught in the Scriptures. While no SINGLE passage of Scripture teaches all of these truths together in one place, each of the component truths is clearly taught in Scripture. We believe ALL of what the Bible teaches us about God, not just choosing some parts to believe and ignoring other parts. We believe ALL of these truths SIMULTANEOUSLY.
 +4 / -2
NeverKnew
NeverKnew a day ago

Jehovah's Witnesses operate as witnesses of the Father, not the Son.
They also believe that Jesus already returned in 1914.
God only communicates with their leaders as they are the sole mouthpieces of God... unless they are on a Witness stand for a huge multi-million dollar pedophile case. Then that standard line becomes a "presumptuous" statement made by imperfect men in the Lord's perfect organization.
Only JWs will survive Armageddon. oh... unless you're a baptized JW who broke a rule such as not to smoke and were removed by 3 guys who also attended your services.

Despite the fact that there is nothing in the Scriptures about an Earthly resurrection, they are told repeatedly that everyone will be resurrected to Earth.
Christmas, Easter and every other holiday are evil.
I would recommend you visit www.jwfacts.com. That'll get you caught up.
 +4 / -0
cofty
cofty a day ago

While no SINGLE passage of Scripture teaches all of these truths together in one place
You would have thought that Jesus might have mentioned that at least once.
Apparently he came to make god known but failed to mention or even hint at the trinity.
That couldn't be because it was a post-biblical invention could it?
 +2 / -0
andrewlya
andrewlya a day ago
How come majority of memebrs here are ex JWs? I thought this is JW forum?

 
andrewlya
andrewlya a day ago
There is I joined here is that I wanted to speak to JWs and see their stance on the trinity as I have come to see God as One not as triune. I have started to beleive that God is one (the Father),Jesus is his Son, the Messiah, but not God and the Holy Spirit is God, or the force of God.

 
andrewlya
andrewlya a day ago
Can someone explain to me why majority of members here are ex JWs, what's the point if this is a JW forum?

 
LostGeneration
LostGeneration a day ago

Regular JWs aren't allowed to freely express themselves, they are in a cult. You can't question or oppose official doctrine.
If you want a real JW, you can try JWtalk.com, or Topix seems to have more active JWs. Or you can call the local Kingdom hall in your area and invite one over. I'd hesitate before doing that, they will pester you until you say not to come around anymore.
 +2 / -0
Funchback
Funchback a day ago

The homepage explains what this site is all about.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/
 +1 / -0
C0ntr013r
C0ntr013r a day ago
Everyone is welcome JWs and ex JWs but JWs can get into trouble if they post/read here. That is because there are ex members here who JWs need to avoid like the plauge. Also JWs are not allowed to read negative information about the WT and there is a lot of that here.
 +1 / -0
cofty
cofty a day ago

Most of the users of the forum are ex-Jws
Don't be too impressed that the JWs are non-trinitarian. Check out JWFacts.com for information about their cultish organization.
 +5 / -0
skin
skin a day ago
Current jws are forbidden to talk about scriptural doctrines online because all the true facts only come from the jw leaders. Coming to sites like this one could make current jws question weather the jw leaders are telling us the facts. Not aloud to question them or you could get kicked out of this organization.
 +2 / -0
FayeDunaway
FayeDunaway a day ago

The point of this forum for exJWs is that it is such a cult that even if you manage to leave the religion with your family still talking to you, you need to talk to like minded peers about getting all of the fear, obligation and guilt out of your head so you can move on with your life. Most are however NOT able to leave with their families intact, and need to come here to talk about it.
Does this religion still sound appealing to you?
I left, and now, after much study, agree mostly with the Trinity. There are more scriptures to support it than those that call it into question, in my opinion. I don't want to argue about the Trinity, but study the subject deeper, and certainly do not use only witness materials. There are many resources online.
 +2 / -0
kaik
kaik a day ago

Andrew, this is ex-JW forum, but you will run into JW who are still a member of the organization on this site. In general JWs do not have strong doctrine on divinity of Jesus. I grew up in WT as JW and we were never groomed to believe that Jesus was important for relationship with God.
As LG had said, JWs believe in one God, creator and originator, name Jehovah. They do not believe in Trinity or anything else divine except the father. Jesus is a first creation, but salvation is achieved by association with WT. Only small group of people will benefit from a personal association with Jesus, which is the 144,000 who are the spiritual bride who will live in heaven.
JW are not traditional Christians, so unlike mainstream Christianity that believes that "Jesus saves" it is the Watch Tower that saves, because it is like of Noah's Ark carrying faithful through Armageddon to salvation.
 +3 / -0
Sugar Shane
Sugar Shane a day ago

Also, if I may:
Some of the mainstream Christian denominations do not make belief in Trinity a 'test of faith.' In other words, the only requirement is that you accept Jesus as your personal savior. The JWs make a big fuss about 'accurate knowledge.' I'm not saying you should not STRIVE for knowledge, but it should not determine who gains salvation, or not.
For a Biblical example, the thief who was cruxified alongside Jesus probably wasn't certain as to JC's nature--truine or otherwise. I'm sure there are better examples, but it certainly comes to mind.
Not to plug a particular denomination, but I know the Disciples of Christ, and probably the United Church of Christ (UCC) believe this way. Moreover, they try to help you have a personal relationship with God through JC...they don't try to act as 'God's mouthpiece,' as JWs appear to do. Not saying they're perfect, but they're definitely not considered cults. I'm thinking that mainstream Methodists and a few others are along these lines as well.
My 2 pesos, FWIW
 +1 / -0
AudeSapere
AudeSapere a day ago

Current, active Jehovah's witnesses are not permitted to discuss any concerns they may have with their religion or with their religious leaders.
When this discussion board started, it was ONLY for active Jehovah's witnesses. But a funny thing happened when those active Jehovah's witnesses started talking - anonomously - about their questions and concerns... The *real* truth started to come out.
Now, this board is the largest and longest running discussion forum for all things related to JW's. And while there are some active witnesses, the majority, by FAR, are inactive, EX-Jehovah's Witnesses.

Welcome.
-AudeSapere (meaning: Dare to Know; Dare to Have Wisdom/Understanding; Dare to Think for Yourself)
 +3 / -0
Cold Steel
Cold Steel a day ago

Christianity is plagued with trying to balance the Trinity with the monotheism of the Jews. There's little in the New Testament to clear things up, either. The JWs are not believers in the Trinity; rather, they believe that Jesus was, in premortality, Michael the Archangel, which is purely conjecture. But in Acts and other Christian writings, there seems to be a definite line drawn between Jesus and God. Check out the stoning of Stephen in Acts 7:
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
...
59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Any observer could deduce from just this one passage that Jesus and God were two different beings, which is how the JWs read it. So they say, well, if Jesus and God are two different beings, who's the next greatest being in Heaven? Michael the Archangel!
BTW, the above is only one example of differentiations between God and Jesus. Only in the writings of John is the relationship between the Father, Son and Man. JWs also don't believe that the Holy Spirit is an actual personage but, rather, the "active force" of God. In other words, when God commands, the active force is what carries out His will. JWs argue that they are the only Christians who believe in one God. They reason that if the Father is God, then Jesus can't be God, because God told Isaiah He is the only God, and there are no others. If there were others, He said, He would know about it. If I understand the Trinity correctly, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three manifestations of the same being, or entity.
JWs reject that out of hand.















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Please, tell me.
by andrewlya a day ago 24 Replies latest 18 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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FayeDunaway
FayeDunaway a day ago

Man begets man, God begets God. Jesus is the only begotten son of God, and he is called God different times in the Bible, not just John 1:1.
I think son of God MEANS that he is God.
If you have a movie, say King Kong. And then a sequel, son of King Kong, the subject is going to be very similar, isn't it? Is there still only one King Kong, or are they both King Kongs, similar in power and image but different versions? One is not in essence less Kong than the other. (Please forgive the silly illustration! Um, cofty thinks God is a monster, so cofty, that was a gift to you! :wink:)
The Trinity doctrine is meant to reconcile how there can only be one God, yet there are all these scriptures that say the son of God is: the image of God, God, the alpha and Omega, the I am, the only begotten God, mighty God, all things created by him, etc.
 +1 / -0
OutsiderLookingIn
OutsiderLookingIn a day ago

For me (I've never been a JW), the JW perspective of Jesus as a lesser being made even less sense to me. If Jesus is a lesser god, that means someone other than God now has all authority in heaven and earth (Matthew 28:18) and will have that authority again during the millenial reign. How is it possible that God--a jealous and sovereign God--will share His glory and honor with a created being, even requiring us to honor the Son just as we honor the Father (John 5:23)? In the Bible, worshiping a deity goes hand in hand with serving it (e.g., Exodus 20:3-5; Jeremiah 25:6; 2 Kings 17:35-36; Joshua 24:14-15). Yet the apostles identified themselves as bondservants (slaves) of Jesus. Why did they follow and serve another god that is not God?
Christ is God and man. As the Son of God, He is equal to God. That's why the Jews wanted to stone him for "making Himself equal to God" (John 5:18). As the Son of Man, He is less than God because human nature is less than God's nature. With His death and resurrection, Jesus was glorified again to the glory He had with the Father before the world was (John 17:5).




As for the JW "proof text": so God may be all in all (1 Corinthians 15:28)...I understand to mean "when all of this is over, the differentiation of the Trinity will no longer be necessary because we'll know God face to face." Overall, though, I agree with others that this isn't the make or break issue; receiving Jesus is.

 +2 / -0
LeeT
LeeT 20 hours ago
Whilst you're looking at JW beliefs on the trinity you might also like to compare with Unitarianism. This link looks to provide a fairly neutral non doctrinaire stance.http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/trinity/unitarianism.html


 
Daniel1555
Daniel1555 18 hours ago
If you want to speak to active and fully determined JWs, use the JWTALK Forum.
 
jhine
jhine 18 hours ago

Hi andrewlya , l would echo what people have said about the WT being extremely controlling and very dogmatic . l have never been a J W but l thought l knew a lot about the WT , wrong, being on here has been an eye-opener .
If you became a Witness , especially baptised , they would own you . lots of people on here have horrific stories to tell about how their lives have been ruined and their families split by the WT .
They have to keep members isolated and controlled to stop them from reading the Bible for themselves , without the " aid " of WT material .
Also to stop them from finding out the real history of the WT , much of which is covered up by the Governing Body and to stop them from finding out the WT's terrible record on child protection .
Research for yourself , independently , find out the whole truth about the WT , not just what they tell you
Jan
 

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Topic Summary
hi, i am a christian and i would like to know jehovas witness's belief in god and whether you believe jesus is god.
please, any statements back up with biblical verses,thank you and god bless, in jesus's name.. i am new on here, so please be patient with me :).



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Whats it like being an atheist and still going to meetings?
by Crazyguy 19 hours ago 4 Replies latest 3 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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Crazyguy
Crazyguy 19 hours ago
Anyone fall into this category?
 
disposable hero of hypocrisy
disposable hero of hypocrisy 19 hours ago
Frustrating when you hear the lies and half truths but can't do anything about it directly. Kinda funny to hear the poor poor reasoning from some of the talks and comments. Sad to see good people wasting their time. Me included. They have good intentions by and large. In any other church they'd be told to do good in the community but we're so insular, and that's sad. A waste of man hours and intentions.Good opportunity to exercise critical thinking skills.Overall though, boring.
 +6 / -0
OneEyedJoe
OneEyedJoe 13 hours ago
I any imagine it's much different than if someone was a believing Christian going to meetings knowing it's a cult. You just want to tell "WAKE UP!" at everyone sitting there listening to lies and terrible reasoning, wasting their lives. It's very frustrating. When I was going to meetings still, I also had some symptoms of PTSD, but I'm sure that's not because I was/am an atheist.
 +2 / -0
DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG 3 hours ago

The meetings are the most boring, mind-numbing, wastes of time and life that I can think of. They are insidious mind-control sessions. Absolutely nothing new is ever learned. They are just a relentless flow of propaganda for the WTBTS inc.
I only go for my wife. She's been through a lot lately and doesn't need the extra stress that would result if I quit going altogether. I look ahead and pick and choose which meetings to skip. For instance, I went today so that I can skip the Partaker bashing of next week's craptastic article.
The WTBTS doesn't want to be wrong, AGAIN, so the increase of partakers, which has been obvious to those observing, cannot possibly be another mistake, ( decreasing partakers being a sign of the last days ) but must be due the mental and emotional issues of fake anointed. "Don't judge partakers!", say the GB, "We will do that ourselves!"
Anyway, I'm not an atheist, more agnostic. The meetings, as I've said many times, are an intellectually stifling enviroment; a one-room schoolhouse where no one is allowed to graduate or question the lesson book provided by the company store. All grades are present, repeating the same lesson. The more intelligent students are doomed to a life boring, repetitive, nonsensical liturgies that cannot be questioned.
LET'S REVIEW: IT'S A CULT!!!
DD
 +2 / -0
ttdtt
ttdtt 3 hours ago

That was me for sure.
It was so hard. Hearing the most trivial things attributed to god, or the most horrible acts of violence in the bible committed by god spoken of as if they were so wonderful. And then you have the elder and ms body who are mostly uneducated morons who can't complete a sentence - just painful.
 +1 / -0

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Just in time for Memorial season...
by OutsiderLookingIn 2 hours ago 2 Replies latest an hour ago   watchtower bible
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OutsiderLookingIn
OutsiderLookingIn 2 hours ago

This is short and quick but maybe it's a seed to plant in the 10 days until the Memorial. I have talked to JWs who tell me their reason for not eating the bread and drinking the cup is because that was only a New Covenant with His disciples (and in their wonky extension, the 144,000). But I just thought of a few things.
First off, that's not even true because in John 6:53-54, Jesus was talking to more than His disciples. But let's assume that's true: why are they doing other things Jesus only told His disciples about? Like the preaching work. The flimsy proof texts given for the need to preach for salvation were only spoken to the disciples: Matthew 24:14 (see verse 3, He told the disciples these things "privately"); Matthew 28:19-20. In two accounts (starting Matthew 10:1 and Mark 6:7), Jesus tells them to pair off and preach; only Luke 10 talks about the 70 (or 72) disciples but just say "well, the 12 is equal to the 144,000, why aren't they equal to the 70? The accounts are otherwise the same." The fact remains, in the most-cited reasons for the "preaching work" (in Matthew), Jesus was talking directly to His nearest and dearest disciples. If the Lord's Supper is only for His disciples who will rule with Christ in heaven, why should anyone but that anointed group preach? Or: why are they disciples for the preaching work, but not for the very act that symbolizes that they're a part of the New Covenant?



Thoughts?


 
prologos
prologos an hour ago
Jesus would be removed as an elder and disfellowshipped for active apostasy, because he served the bread and wine to non-anointed people with an earthly hope, ordering them to eat and drink. think.
 +1 / -0
Crazyguy
Crazyguy an hour ago

Jws pick and choose what Scriptures they will use. They are taught by stupid men and so they end up stupid too. Example they love James 1:26-27 faith with out works is worthless yet never read Ephesian 2:8-9 where it says the exact opposite.
About the eating of the bread and wine, every other Christian religion knows that Jesus was talking to everyone in the crowd at copernium when he said you have to eat my flesh to have life in you. The second group he talks about the other sheep is the gentiles, Christians know this as well.
 +1 / -0

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if you had the slightest of doubt about leaving leaving the watchtower org. go to to jwsurvey.org NOW!
by nowwhat? 3 hours ago 3 Replies latest 4 minutes ago   watchtower scandals
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nowwhat?
nowwhat? 3 hours ago
and we are suposed to trust these guys with our lives?!
 
Magnum
Magnum 36 minutes ago
Are you referring to something specific - like the front page article on the Telly Awards?
 
nowwhat?
nowwhat? 19 minutes ago
The phony telly awards
 
Magnum
Magnum 4 minutes ago
OK, thanks. I'm still digesting that article. If it's accurate, then it does help to erase any doubts I might have about leaving.
 

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