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Where's my invitation to the Memorial? What the hell!
by ToesUp 4 hours ago 7 Replies latest an hour ago   jw friends
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ToesUp
ToesUp 4 hours ago

A carload of JW's worked our street today. Obviously they are doing the invites to the Memorial. Of course, we didn't answer.
1 ring, 2 seconds at the door (that's all we get?) and when we checked later....NO TRACT WITH AN INVITE LEFT IN THE DOOR? What the hell. They are doing all of this invite work but leaving no invite in the doors? How is anyone going to find the date, time and location to the Memorial? I'm so hurt.... NOT! (Sarcasm alert!)
 +1 / -1
Doubtfully Yours
Doubtfully Yours 4 hours ago

We were told during the last meeting that we are not leaving them at the doors without answer yet. Maybe in another week we will be just leaving it at every door.
DY
 
ToesUp
ToesUp 4 hours ago
Hmmm...good to know. Thanks DY.
 
fokyc
fokyc 2 hours ago

They don't even knock or ring when passing my place!
They just look at a bit of paper in their hand and pass on by.
THEY made me a 'do not call'; aren't they kind.
I didn't want to go to their memorial anyway.



 
jhine
jhine 2 hours ago
You can have mine if you like , l won't be going ! Jan
 
Crazyguy
Crazyguy 2 hours ago
Its crazy to think that anyone would just say yeah I want to go to a strange place with a bunch of strangers they have never met . OK maybe if you offer them some reason to go, food, entertainment, something, anything, a free toy out of a happy meal, something anything. When you think about it, it's really stupid.
 +1 / -0
stephanie61092
stephanie61092 an hour ago
It could depend on where you live. At the CLAM meeting the other week, it was announced that we would be leaving them at not at homes except in certain neighborhoods. Some of the deed restricted communities where I live tried to get JWs banned entirely and while unfortunately for all the residents, it wasn't passed, the JWs did have to agree to not leave any litter-ture in doors or under door mats.
 
jookbeard
jookbeard an hour ago
we get nothing around here, no knocks or leaflets nothing, just the crappy carts in the town centre, the last conversation I had with on of them couple of months back as to why you dont call in my neighbourhood or leave leaflets etc she lied and said they do, lying PoS. In 21 years since moving away from my congs territory I have never seen one single memorial invite in the multiple addresses I've lived in, and I was not known to them in those areas
 

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Jehovah's Witness Teens 13 and 10 Commit Suicide in Wisconsin
by Tenacious 5 days ago 11 Replies latest 3 days ago   watchtower scandals
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Tenacious
Tenacious 5 days ago

I found the following story while researching the JW mindset and subsequent behavior due to their weekly exposure to mind control techniques. The story is a bit old but it does speak volumes in terms of the mental anguish the average JW teen must endure as a JW. Links to website and original newspaper follow:



The police say it was suicide
 When our assignment of either writing a five-page document or saying a five-minute speech came up for psychology class, I thought long, and hard. It would be very easy to say a speech for five minutes to the class and that would be over and done. As it is very hard for me to talk to a group I considered writing. My topic will be depression.
 A depression seems sometimes to mold a person's life. It is responsible for how you feel, makes you have religious preoccupations and worries about the meaning of life. When you are feeling very low it is extremely hard to pick yourself up and continue on with the necessary things of life. I have dwelt with depression for about 25 years. In order for you to understand, I have to tell you my story.
 I was born in Stafford Springs, Connecticut in 1949. I was one among 10 children. My father was a paint contractor and wallpaper hanger. My mother was a housewife. I was child number 6. I had five brothers and was the fourth oldest of the four youngest. I also had three sisters. In my childhood we lived in a house that was very old and needed a lot of handiwork. The house was very cold and it had no running water. Looking back to on this, I have a hard time to understand how my mother dwelt with having all those children and so few conveniences.
 When I was a really young baby, the Jehovah's Witnesses came into our lives. The Jehovah's Witnesses prey upon people that are depressed, have lost someone they loved, or sometimes after someone has been involved in a very bad relationship. The Jehovah's witnesses go from door to door preaching what they say is the good news of God's kingdom. Many people are deceived because they will come to their door with a smile on their face, a Bible in their hands, while talking about paradise on earth. Of course this paradise on earth is very conditional and it only belongs to that one limited group. Their religious belief is that everybody who isn't a Jehovah's Witnesses will find himself or herself killed at this great battle of Armageddon. In this religion you are not allowed to do many things, celebrate the holidays, associate with other people that are not Jehovah's witnesses, salute the flag, or even sing patriotic songs. This religion is terribly controlling and it is discriminating against the woman. The woman is to be in total submission of the man as the man is the head of the household.
 Another one of the beliefs that are very prevalent in the watchtower system is that if you are married to a person that is not of the watchtower and you are a woman you do not have to listen to this person. I believe that is why mom got really entangled into this religion. She needed an escape from the control and manipulation of her husband, my father. Mom was very easygoing, very kind, generous, and caring. Mom never did drive so she was caught in a situation where she had to completely rely on someone to take her here or there. When Mom was first converted to the Jehovah Witness religion Dad didn't go along with it. Mom was always worried that Dad would be destroyed at the great battle of Armageddon.
 Life as a teenager for me was very trying. All of my classmates had nice new homes, nice new cars, their parents had very good jobs, had earned a lot of money. I didn't have very many friends in school because I was a Jehovah Witness. I remember how much it used to bother me because I wasn't allowed to salute the flag and everybody else did. Saluting the flag is a real sin in their eyes. We were never taught as children about the very real emotional part of us. We were taught to live by rules and follow examples given by the watchtower.
 In my high school years, I developed a rebellious nature. Everything I wanted to do was wrong. No one ever asked me to go anywhere, or do anything due to the strict rules. I just drifted along. In those days we had no television, VCR, videos or games to play. In school I was very quiet and never contributed anything to class discussions.
 After I graduated from high school I married a man who was a non-Jehovah's Witness, a drunkard and a wife beater. I lived in hell for five long, lonely, years. The one good thing that came out of this marriage was I had a very handsome young son. What a hard life we had. No place to live and no food. My job didn't give us enough money to survive on. Whenever my ex-husband worked all the money went for drinking. My ex-husband was extremely jealous, possessive and whenever anyone looked at me he would beat me up. I finally got a divorce, but was deathly afraid of him and his actions.
 My sister and her husband moved away from Connecticut in 1972. My Father and Mother moved up to Wisconsin too. I had just gotten through with a divorce, so I moved to Wisconsin with my young son Ron to start a new life. What a surprise I was in for! When I moved up to Wisconsin, I couldn't find a job. I went on welfare temporarily so that my Ron and myself could be taken care of until I could find work.
 Shortly after moving to Wisconsin my Mother introduced me to a man who was a Jehovah witness. At that time in 1974 the Jehovah's Witnesses were really strong into the belief that 1975 would be the end of the world. I did not feel that I was worthy to be saved from Armageddon and I thought for sure that I would be killed along with my young son because we weren't Jehovah Witnesses. I believed that my fiancé to be could save me from being destroyed, as well as I really wanted to have another baby because I love children. So I married again. It wasn't long before I had realized I made a mistake, my new husband hated my young son Ron. He completely changed from being a loving man to being a very controlling, manipulating man. It wasn't long before he took my car away. He had a cabin for us to live in that was very isolated and away from all other people. He wouldn't let us have a telephone. He wouldn't let me drive any of his vehicles. Our whole life was comprised of going to the kingdom hall of Jehovah's Witnesses; once in a while he would let me go along to the store with him to buy groceries and supplies. He wouldn't allow me to work away from him, or go to get certain training so I could get a job. He wouldn't let me work in the home care either. I felt so trapped, and I didn't know how to get out of the situation, I stayed with it for 22 years. He was very mean to Ron and abused him many times physically. Looking back on it now, I don't know which is more addictive religion or alcohol.
 My husband didn't have a job because the end of the world was right around the corner and so why work? I finally convinced him that we had to find a job to take care of ourselves. He decided to be a logger, so we went into the logging business together. I bunched the logs after he'd cut them. We also sold firewood and peeled poplar. After a while, I learned to run the chain saw. As I was on welfare at the time I couldn't earn any money so he took what money I earned and put it on his check. We lived mostly off money I got from welfare. I also got quite a lot of food stamps.
 Our marriage produced four beautiful children. They were three boys and one little girl. The whole family worked in the woods, as soon as the kids were about one year old. I had to bundle them up very good because it is very cold here in Northern Wisconsin. I would be working and they would be close to my side. I had to always watch them, as I was afraid they would get in the way of the falling trees. It usually wasn't long until they were fussing because they were cold. I would have to warm up the car by turning on the heater. He controlled all the money. I worked for him for free for 12 years while I was on welfare. On the income tax forms he never added my name so now I have very little Social Security benefits during my current disability.
 On August 30th, 1993 a major life event threw me into a deep, dark depression. On that day, as usual I had to take care of my father who had had a hip operation, and was very old. I left home early that morning leaving my husband in the care of our three young children. When I left to take care of my father I had clothes laid out for my youngest daughter. She was five years old and could dress herself. I left at about 7:05 and the school bus was supposed to come at 8:00. At quarter to eight in the morning he called me at my father's house and told me he couldn't find the two boys. They should be going to school on the bus. I came home, looked around the house, and then I looked around the grounds. There was no sign of the boys, then he said, "the car is missing" I looked; sure enough the car was missing. It was a rainy day, so of course I looked for tracks in the mud. The tracks in the mud showed up plainly. I followed the tracks down the road and into the trail; the Rail Trail is an old railroad bed that the kids use for hiking, biking, and three wheeling. It is a recreational trail that stretches from Prentice to Medford. I drove back home and told my husband that the boys had driven down into the trail.
 My husband took my daughter and me in his truck down Spring Road to the beginning of the trail. He left us and walked in. He told us to wait there for him. We waited anxiously in the truck for a while and I wondered what to do. At the time, I didn't pay much attention to what time it was. He was in there and I decided to get out of the truck and walk down the trail to see if I could see anything. I walked about a couple of telephone pole lengths and then I heard a gunshot. I hurried back to the truck and drove in the trail. On my way down the trail I saw my husband coming and he was crying. I got really worried then said, "Where are the boys?" He said, "they're both dead and the gun is there, they killed themselves." I went totally numb. I wasn't used to dealing with death and no one had died in my family since I was a little girl of eight years old. I went into shock. I couldn't function. Things kept running through my mind. It was the last thing I had expected. How do you deal with losing two of your precious young sons at one time? Well the days when by slowly and my depression got very deep. I really didn't want to live and the quiet of the grave seemed very enticing at that time. There would be relief from the great mental anguish of such a loss that most couldn't ever comprehend unless it happened to them. Life kept going on and somehow I managed to keep doing the things that have to be done for the rest of the family. The whole area was in an uproar. Nobody could believe such a horrible thing could happen. The media was after me constantly because they had never heard of two little boys ending their lives that way.
 Even after six years the pain I feel from this gets very intense and it is always there. There isn't one single day that I wake up in the morning and don't think about my two little boys and why that happened. The police say it was suicide, a double suicide but the case is still open. The police say each boy killed himself. The police had an investigation where they hired 10 special detectives who were used to dealing with this kind of thing and they all got together and tried to figure out what happened. To this day over six years later I still don't know for sure what happened that day, on the trail;
 And I don't know if I will ever really know the truth.
 In my mind, I blame the Jehovah's Witnesses because their whole religion is based upon death. They believe in a very vengeful God, an angry God. This angry God hates everybody who isn't a Jehovah's Witnesses and will kill them. This includes the children because their parents don't believe what the people from the watchtower told them. I found later on in the boys Watchtower literature that was in their Watchtower briefcase that they took to the Kingdom Hall, an actual map of the location of the suicides. There is only one way for salvation in that churches eyes and that is to be a Jehovah's Witnesses. There's also another way to escape the horrible bottle of Armageddon and that is to die before Armageddon. If anyone dies before Armageddon, they are guaranteed to live in a paradise earth. Did my little boys die because they wanted to live?
 As I go through, all this pain and suffering; I am worried about my young daughter going through the same things that my boys had to go through, due to the Watchtower teachings of fear. There was only one way that I could make it through the rest of this life and that was to go through a second miserable divorce. I hired a lawyer because I absolutely had to have sole custody of my daughter plus I didn't want her involved with the Jehovah's Witnesses. The Watchtower Organization, that is the head of the Jehovah's Witnesses lined up one of their expert people to help the ex-husband testify against me. They used someone all the way from New York. In the end I did get sole custody with one exception. The one exception was that on my ex-husbands time, he had the right to have religious interaction with her. He could take her to his religious meetings with him. She didn't like it but was forced to go with him on his visiting time, which is every other weekend. The divorce was very stressful, as he wanted joint custody. The divorce took a very long year to complete. My daughter had a guardian ad lithem, a social worker, whom both advised the judge that my daughter shouldn't have to be forced to go to the watchtower. My daughter is twelve years old and we are still involved in this religious conflict.
 This life has been a real hard lesson. If I could do it again I would do it completely different. First of all, when I was young, I would have been a lot more interested in my studies. My parents never taught us how important an education really was because the watchtower frowned upon getting an education. The watchtower hates to have people educated because then they will leave. The watchtower cannot control an educated person. They knew if the people were educated they wouldn't believe all the lies they heard.
 Depression is treated by psychotherapy, sometimes medications. When one treatment is ineffective, it is likely that another one will be successful. For me, I found that optimism is sometimes good medicine. Usually life is exactly what you make of it. I deal with this problem one day at a time. This is a true story. It is also confidential.
 Before I went to college, I worked for a company called the Great Northern Cabinetry. Because I had no education and no skills except for working in the woods, they had me hand-standing cabinet doors and cabinet parts all day long plus overtime. I developed carpal tunnel, tendinitis in both arms and wrist tendinitis in both wrists. I am permanently disabled now. The DVR bought me a voice-activated computer and now I am taking classes to become an administrative assistant so that I can take care of my young daughter and myself. I feel finely I'm on the way to a better life.

 Roberta Moore
January 29, 2000
Story taken from: Click here for website
Original news story: Click here for story


 +1 / -0
No Longer a JW Brother
No Longer a JW Brother 5 days ago
I didn't read the whole thing but I remember back in '96 or '97 a young 17 year old kid from my hall laid down on the train tracks and killed himself. It turned out he was gay and his mother told him to straighten out or leave. That was all it took.

 +3 / -0
Freeandclear
Freeandclear 5 days ago
Such a very sad story, and I'm sure it's no where near unique. The TWS really does ruin lives with their ridiculous teachings on education and staying poor. How many lives would have turned out differently for the good if we'd not been sucked in? Most likely all of us.
 +3 / -0
Beth Sarim
Beth Sarim 5 days ago
Terrible.
 +1 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 5 days ago

Another one of the beliefs that are very prevalent in the watchtower system is that if you are married to a person that is not of the watchtower and you are a woman you do not have to listen to this person
Actually that's incorrect the WTS still insists that a married woman is to be in subjection to their male husbands even though he may not be a JWS in practice.
Sad story irregardless.




 
Pete Zahut
Pete Zahut 5 days ago

Just when you think you've heard it all.....
Anyone who has ever attended or visited a Kingdom Hall in a remote area can understand how this could happen.
Locked into an isolated life that revolves around a controlling "end time's" religion headed by poorly educated narrow minded men, must be a living hell for the women and young people who are at their mercy. A married man who doesn't fit or like his circumstances can pick up and leave if he decides to. A married Woman and her children would be stuck in a life that they might not survive or ever recover from, especially if the husband liked the control and power that was granted to him by his religion and thereby God.
 +4 / -0
Tenacious
Tenacious 5 days ago

The story impacted me but what really struck me was how her JW husband behaved towards Roberta.
 
TTWSYF
TTWSYF 5 days ago

suicide is one of those things that transcends religious belief. Who knows how many factors enters into ones equation when one decides to end their life.
Always tragic no matter what
 
Vidiot
Vidiot 4 days ago


TTWSYF - "Who knows how many factors enters into ones equation when one decides to end their life?"
True.
That being said...
...anyone who suggests that WT ideology and/or subculture are never factors in the equation is woefully mistaken.
 +1 / -0
Beth Sarim
Beth Sarim 4 days ago
that's why you hear about so many JW's committing suicide.
 
smiddy
smiddy 4 days ago

I personally knew of a young J.W. man who committed suicide from our congregation ,such a tragedy on all levels.
smiddy
 
Vidiot
Vidiot 3 days ago

@ smiddy...
Same. I think everyone has.
It's an "elephant in the room" to still-in JWs, IMO.
 

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Are JW Celebrities Getting paid to say they are JW?
by Luther bertrand 9 days ago 18 Replies latest 8 days ago   watchtower scandals
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Luther bertrand
Luther bertrand 9 days ago
I have always wondered why prince and Michael Jackson stayed in good standing for some of the stuff they released as JWS? Or how the Williams sisters could stay in sports without all the BS? After all the revelations about the Org that I have heard... I wonder if they are paid and the reason they get away with it is that they are PR strategies and really they could give a crap about the org?
 +3 / -0
sparky1
sparky1 9 days ago



"I will consult with my 'third eye' and get back to you, Luther!"
 +7 / -0
talesin
talesin 9 days ago

No, no, no.
Prince was p-struck, and the others want to be with their families. They are not paid - their donations ensure that they do not get shunned for their obvious breaking of the rules. It's a win-win for the WTBTS.
 +6 / -0
steve2
steve2 9 days ago

Michael Jackson hardly stayed in good standing; in fact, he left and subsequently uncritically mused over Islamic teachings (in step with one of his older brothers. Of course, his mother never shunned him - matriarchs have a lot of leeway.
As for Prince, he is not a particularly "healthy" endorsement of the jw lifestyle. He played at a couple of celebrities birthday parties last year - and made no apology about it. And, as sparky shows in the telling photo in his post, Prince's latest album is pictorially "taken" with the notion of the third eye. Prince has obvious gifts in musicianship, but in terms of spirituality, he is an opportunist and not a particularly deep thinker, unless it's on topics like sexuality.
The Williams sisters are an embarrassment to the jw community, and not a source of jw pride.
 +5 / -0
Luther bertrand
Luther bertrand 9 days ago
steve2 I am not so sure you understand PR? They do have to exemplify JW lifestyle to promote. What they have to do is reach out to people that COULD become JWs. In a sales sense, the real question is do they attracted people who are "ready to buy" a religion. Surely they are an embarrassment to the longtime JWS or people who are really in the org and know better but the general public has no clue what JW lifestyle is! It could be a bait and switch, in my opinion, I have no proof of this, its just a possibility and if there were proof about it, lets just say I would not be as shocked as I would have been a number of years ago.
 
talesin
talesin 9 days ago

"Let the women keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but let them subject themselves, just as the Law also says. And if they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church." (NASB, 1 Cor. 14:34-35)

 
Luther bertrand
Luther bertrand 9 days ago
talesin I don't understand the relevance of your previous post.
 
talesin
talesin 9 days ago

Luther b, I did not make that post. I don't know what's up with that?
That is creepy.
Edit: Checked my PC history, and it's there. Not a breach of the DB, but maybe of my PC. I have had some problems recently.
 +2 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 9 days ago

No of course not , these assorted celebrities may be dumping money into the Borg on their own though.
 
alecholmesthedetective
alecholmesthedetective 9 days ago

They do have to exemplify JW lifestyle to promote.
Well, their latest music video seems to be promoting something completely contradictory to what they preached decades ago about staying single and giving god your best and serving where the need is great and all that.
It seems to be more a case of 'if you're rich you can do what you want' rather than a clever PR ploy of using celebrities to attract people to the religion. Scientology has beaten them to it.
 +1 / -0
Beth Sarim
Beth Sarim 9 days ago

This morning on TV they were saying that Jarule is 10 years old today. Then I was thinking, ''WTF, Jarule, 10 years old??''
But then, they said on TV it's February 29th, and Jarule was born on Feb 29,1976, he is a leap year Birthday person. It was then that they said on TV ''that Jarule was raised as a JW and he found it hard not to celebrate Birthdays, Xmas, Thanksgivings and Halloween''. It was kind of a surreal moment, even with no one else in the house at when I was watching that, awkward moment.
 +2 / -0
James Mixon
James Mixon 9 days ago

It's funny prior to 1975 there were many celebrities, athletes, professional folks,
today they have Prince. They need star power....
 +1 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot 8 days ago


Luther bertrand - "Are JW celebrities getting paid to say they are JW?"
Nobody could get paid enough to say something like that.
Only someone who'd say it for free (i.e. an actual JW) would say it at all.
:smirk:
 
sparky1
sparky1 8 days ago



Forget PRINCE! Bring back a real mans man to represent Jehovah's 'Celebrity' Witnesses. Where is Mickey Spillane when you need him!
 
Beth Sarim
Beth Sarim 8 days ago
It seems so weird to hear on TV or whatever that 'so and so' celebrity is a JW, hard to describe.
 
Mad Irishman
Mad Irishman 8 days ago

The Williams sisters are not baptized so nobody can really influence them as to what they do or say.
Michael Jackson was kicked out as a JW.
Prince does what he wants.
You really don't know the Witnesses if you think members of the Governing body would pay them. Its laughable. They can't stomach even the most minor of JW celebrities.
No offense. But sometimes some of the things put forward on this site are so crazy that it makes ex-JW's seem crazy. Sometimes people need to think hard before they post.
 +1 / -0
Luther bertrand
Luther bertrand 8 days ago
Mad Irishman not too long ago I would have answered just like you. But after all the stuff that I have learned about the organization by looking at primary sources and documents... nothing shock me about the organization anymore.
 
bafh
bafh 8 days ago

It's my understanding that the Williams sisters were never baptized, so there isn't anything for them to be condemned about. Michael Jackson eventually disassociated himself in the late 80s/early 90s.
As far as Prince goes, he was "in" - my mom went to a concert he gave soon after his baptism, and he started "preaching" from the stage. Perhaps his faith has, like many people, "weakened" aka he's come to his senses.
 +1 / -0
Beth Sarim
Beth Sarim 8 days ago
I often think that such people like Michael Jackson and Prince somehow stigmatize the Borg, in some of the ''over-righteous'' one's eyes that is.
 

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GoFundMe - JW Pioneer & LDC Couple
by Listener 15 days ago 32 Replies latest 14 days ago   watchtower scandals
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Listener
Listener 15 days ago

Jerry Jones on Youtube exposed a JW couple who were begging for money on GoFundMe. This is his Youtube



The ad no longer exists on GoFundMe and has been cached
https://www.gofundme.com/Missions-Faith-Church?term=willie%20brandon
The ad was up for 5 months from August 2015 and they recieved the total sum of $100 of the total $40,000 requested.
This is from part of the ad -
We are moving to another state to assist a small Spanish-speaking congregation. For anyone who's ever moved you know how stressful and expensive this can be. But we feel confident that our Heavenly Father is behind us and that He can touch the heart of others to assist us in practical ways!
We are the Brandons, Will and Theresa. We have been engaged in an International Bible educational work for the past 30 years now.
Presently we are full-time preachers known as pioneers in the organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses. A pioneer spends a minimum of 70 hours a month declaring the good news of God’s kingdom.
In addition we have the privilege of being part of the LDC - Local Design Construction so we can work as volunteers supporting disaster recovery efforts and building Kingdom Halls all over the world.
The work is done in over 230 lands and in over 700 languages.
Our desire is not only to continue serving in the United States but if possible, in foreign lands where the needs are greater. We are also trying to eliminate our remaining debt so that we can be free to accept whatever assignment we are qualified for in Jehovah's earthly organiztion. For this and other reasons we are seeking financial sponsors to help us in this once in a lifetime work based on Matthew 24:14 “And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.”
Your contributions will allow us to accomplish these goals and will be greatly appreciated not only by us but by the others whose lives we can influence for good.
Thank you for considering this request and your support in advance.
 +0 / -2
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 14 days ago
Speechless....
 +4 / -0
sparrowdown
sparrowdown 14 days ago

Is this a thing now, funding dubs to participate in this "once in a lifetime work?"



 +1 / -0
ToesUp
ToesUp 14 days ago

5 months and they received $100?
I guess Jah didn't touch the heart of others to donate.
Some JW's feel they are entitled that others to take care of them.
 +19 / -0
sparrowdown
sparrowdown 14 days ago
Yeah, seems to be a bit of that going around.
 +4 / -0
sir82
sir82 14 days ago
Huh, I guess Jehovah doesn't read GoFundMe very often.....

 +12 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 14 days ago
They should have made a cartoon video and asked for ice cream money instead!
 +6 / -0
Lostandfound
Lostandfound 14 days ago

Plumbing the depths, appallying , I recall "seats free, no collections" begging to clear their remaining debts,!! Must be taking advice from the Lett man on public begging by means of tv. If the W T had any
principles left these two would be off the pioneer list and LDC privileges, years ago this would have got you DFed for bringing the cong into disrepute.
 +5 / -0
MrsR-Awaken
MrsR-Awaken 14 days ago

Why do people have to pay their debts? This makes me mad, these jdubs need to pay their own debts, stop preaching this nonsense jw stuff and get your lazy ass to finding a damn job. And how are they gonna influence others life for good? By presenting this cult to them and that way the GB can take their money aswell?? This religion is all about money money money and lazy pioneers not wanting to work expecting others to pay their stuff. Ughh this truly annoys me.
 +14 / -0
Gayle
Gayle 14 days ago

If the W T had any principles left
well, they don't have principles anyway,,The headquarters just aren't going allow anyone grabbing 'their' donations potential!

 +3 / -0
DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG 14 days ago

Go fund me?? How about go get a f***ing job!
DD
 +14 / -0
stephanie61092
stephanie61092 14 days ago
Okay these folks seem like they took an extra hit out off the crazy sauce. This is a little wacko even by JW standards. I've known MANY who wanted to "reach out" but waited because they had to pay off debts, loans, etc. Commencing my giant eye roll... 🙄
 +4 / -0
LongHairGal
LongHairGal 14 days ago

Well, what else is new? Witnesses wanting to be supported while they casually go tripping along ringing doorbells? No stress, no unpleasant employers. Everybody polite and smiling. Then go for coffee. Maybe a gathering later on...etc. Bills??? Don't worry!
Meanwhile...anybody in the congregation who has a full-time job is called "unspiritual"....This is what I put up with when I was in the religion..and I was resolved to NEVER give a dime to these pioneers!!
This Jehovah's Witness mentality of not working (or doing very little work)...and expecting handouts, is unrealistic and unsustainable and I'm glad I'm not around this anymore!!
 +7 / -0
Doubtfully Yours
Doubtfully Yours 14 days ago

Everybody now has a GoFundMe for one reason or another.
This GoFundMe crap gets on my last nerve.
Just like the WTBTS, GoFundMe will never see contributions from me.
DY
 +9 / -0
tiki
tiki 14 days ago
To sink that low...and to seriously want to drum up cash that way...what kind of mindset is that.....unbelievable!
 +6 / -0
EndofMysteries
EndofMysteries 14 days ago
The apostle Paul worked and didn't ask for money.
 +5 / -0
steve2
steve2 14 days ago

Oh this is the pits:
Appealing to people for financial support for your work - the very people you believe will be annihilated at Armaggedon - or can they "buy" special life-saving favors? And this work involves what? Spreading the jw.org message - I noticve not one message of jw.org in your appeal. Clever!
So, Will and Theresa Brandon, you are no part of the world but go to a "worldy" funding site to solicit funds. Does it matter that potential donors aren't witnesses? or could be engaged in "worldly" lifestyles or worship in "false" churches.
And they dress up their appealk by saying, "Jehovah will provide". If so, ask HIm!
 +9 / -0
steve2
steve2 14 days ago

Here's a thought (I realize it is too late because it's since been taken down):
Contact them with an offer of a substantial amount of money but tell them you are thinking about trying to restore your faith in jw.org and are hoping your donation will help and ask, "Do you have any objections to the fact that I have long doubted the organization?"
Then wait for a reply. Hmmmm.
Will and Theresa will be between a rock and a hard place - unless money talks?
 +2 / -0
maninthemiddle
maninthemiddle 14 days ago

There are lots of people of all walks of faith on goFundme asking for money for mission trips. It even has a category just for that.
I remember shaking my head about it, how much money was being raised just to spread lies to unknowing people.
 +4 / -0
cyberjesus
cyberjesus 14 days ago
Somebody lost $100
 +5 / -0

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GoFundMe - JW Pioneer & LDC Couple
by Listener 15 days ago 32 Replies latest 14 days ago   watchtower scandals
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littlerockguy
littlerockguy 14 days ago

They are not the only JWs begging for money to support their "ministry"
https://www.gofundme.com/jwpuertorico
LRG
 
sherrie11
sherrie11 14 days ago

There are tons of them google: gofundme jehovah
The hypocrisy. Where is their putting faith in Jehovah....or leave it up to Jehovah....
 +2 / -0
freddo
freddo 14 days ago
2 Thess. 3 v 10
 
steve2
steve2 14 days ago
freddo those of us without a Bible on hand will need you to spell out those verses. Thanks!
 
FadeToBlack
FadeToBlack 14 days ago
Seems like the org should be funding them. If we were so close to the end, the org should sell everything while they can, distribute the funds to the pioneers. The GB should take the lead by rejecting their cushy tv ministry and get out in the field. What was the saying? Put your money where your mouth is...

 +2 / -0
Dagney
Dagney 14 days ago
Haha! Worth a shot I guess!
 
DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG 14 days ago

Who wants to start a website with me? It will be an Xian-based website designed to help Xians realize the biblical reasons to put forth effort to support themselves, even if it's part time. We will call it ...... (Drum roll......)
GOF***YOURSELF.COM ( F*** = FUND??? 😈 )
DD 😇
 +1 / -0
steve2
steve2 14 days ago

JWs seek funding from worldly people so they can warn worldly people that they're toast unless they warn other worldly people that they're toast unless they warn other people that they're toast and so on and on and on and on.
Little wonder JWs have no compunction in seeking funding from worldly people to do this warning work. Everyone and everything is interconnected.
Here is a question you will never see in the "Questions from Readers" section of the Watchtower:
"Is it approrpiate for Christian Witnesses of Jehovah to seek funding for their ministry from funding sites on the internet?"
If such a question did appear, you can guarantee somewhere in the convoluted reply would be reference to the individual Christian's conscience and the practise would not be scorned.
Money, honey, from any source, talks.
 +1 / -0
Billy the Ex-Bethelite
Billy the Ex-Bethelite 14 days ago

WT has constantly told pioneers, etc., that if they "reach out", Jehovah will bless their efforts. And they also need to be specific in their prayers.

There's been plenty of stories like "Andre the pioneer needed new tires but couldn't afford them and was praying for help, but afraid he'd have to quit pioneering. After the meeting he found an envelope with enough money taped to his steering wheel. Hooray, Jehovah provided."
Of course, Jehovah didn't really provide it. Somebody found out how much he needed and gave it to him.
So I'm not really surprised that JWs would seek funding like this. Instead of just asking for tires, they specifically ask for thousands of dollars. And you don't have to tape money inside their car, the Internet is their steering wheel just waiting for Jehovah-money to magically appear.

 +3 / -0
clarity
clarity 14 days ago

Wow .... they are hoping to get money from those who they consider to be the walking dead!
I had to work full time at a difficult job and was constantly put down because of it. But who did they come to when a "poor" pioneer needed stamps or clothes or a flight home ....those who were working that's who!
clarity
 +1 / -0
compound complex
compound complex 14 days ago

There's been plenty of stories like "Andre the pioneer needed new tires but couldn't afford them and was praying for help, but afraid he'd have to quit pioneering. After the meeting he found an envelope with enough money taped to his steering wheel. Hooray, Jehovah provided." Billy the Ex
My young family and I planned to go to a district convention many years ago, but the tires on my vintage Cadillac were badly worn. As a safety-conscious family man, who was both an elder and pioneer, I feared for my family's safety, perhaps, too, for innocent drivers and their families into whom I could, possibly, plow should one or all of my tires blow and send me careering across the motor way.
Whether it appears strategic or logical from a human standpoint -- or NOT -- good JWs do not falter in their determination to put spiritual matters first. We firmly resolved to go, with tires or no tires. BTW, The Caddy was quite choice, apart from balding rubber.
Subsequent to our decision, a family member -- who was not a lover of our truth and of our God -- gave us a newer sedan with BRAND NEW TIRES! All I prayed for was tires, scarcely expecting a newer and better car.
We came and went to the convention with no tire troubles whatsoever. Our New Yorker stalled and conked out numerous times in San Francisco traffic, but Jehovah moved an unbeliever to assist us in our time of need. All the rest is of no consequence.
Thanks, Billy!
CoCo
 +1 / -0
Listener
Listener 14 days ago

As pointed out this case isn't isolated amongst the JWs, there are others. I started to list them here but I feel bad doing so, these are cases where people feel they need the extra financial support due to their unfortunate situations - illness/medical needs. There was only one other case that I came across asking for funding to support pioneer work, the young sister wasn't sure if she had enough money for her upcoming missionary trip o/s and appeared to be in a panic about it as it was only days away.
I will list one case as the comment they posted on GoFundMe reflects a common feeling.
The Shymanski Family - a sad case where they were involved in a bad car accident, the mother is in a wheelchair and the father needs to stay at home to help look after the young family.
Unfortunately, they are not receiving enough support from the congregation (or the Government which the Org. explains JWs are entitled to in many countries). Mind you, one might be forgiven for thinking that the Government is giving them no support, either that or they are not appreciative of it as there is no mention of it or their appreciativeness. They state the following -
 The family has amazing support from family, friends, and their congregation, but is still in need of financial assistance. If you can, please help to alleviate this burden, so they can focus on healing inside and out.
It is interesting to see that they have already received over $25,000 in donations even though they have not explained their financial state other than the husband is not working. Personally I don't think it is really fair to be asking other people for money if you don't demonstrate or explain your dire financial situation but many people will just give these days regardless, if it pulls on their heart strings then a logical assessment of their position isn't relevant.
For such a large organization, with over $8 million members there are no formal arrangements established to help those in need in a timely and effective manner which has resulted in some needing to resort to social media and places like gofundme for their needed support.
This is what happened to the Sneesby family but this case is a little different because the very heads (the Governing Body) were aware of their individual situation. The GB used their example to show how this family were prepared to go to any lengths to provide the very best medical attention for their child but demonstrated that they weren't prepared to provide financial support.
 +0 / -1
JWdaughter
JWdaughter 14 days ago

Most or many Christians fund their missions by appealing to Christians in churches. The collections taken go direct to the missionaries and perhaps the school or clinic or whatever they are working at. There may be a mission fund through an org, but a lot spend their furloughs fundraising. No problem with that but asking for debt relief? THAT went over the boundaries.
Will a hundred buy a cart? I bet they seeded that themselves hoping the friends would compete to be generous. Like the tip jar with a few buck already stuffed in at opening time at the coffee shop.
I feel for any family in medical need, but if I can't help all of them, I'm sure not donating so that someone can annoy people!
 

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Topic Summary
jerry jones on youtube exposed a jw couple who were begging for money on gofundme.
this is his youtube .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feohxtbml2c.



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Watchtower go full on propaganda!
by David Graham 21 days ago 34 Replies latest 18 days ago   watchtower scandals
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David Graham
David Graham 21 days ago
I see the watchtower are getting extremely desperate now.http://jwtalk.net/forums/topic/25503-injustice-abounds-for-our-dear-russian-brothers/
Check out the professionally edited video, using professional equipment!
 
Skedaddle
Skedaddle 21 days ago

I watched this this morning and it said the guy planting the books under the desk was an ex-jw apostate... the second guy was a policeman the JW's are accusing of planting literature but the cop said he was using the literature to liken any evidence to - which does sound bogus! So are the cops planting banned literature on the JW's?
I await Putin's meeting with the GB! If it's anything like
where he gets that billionaire to sign the contract, I would LOVE IT!!!
 +3 / -0
David Graham
David Graham 21 days ago
Planting yet more fear into active JW's. Us exjws are sooooooo evil haha!
 
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 21 days ago

Billions of people are going to be destroyed in a messy angelic fireball. Cut off family who disagree with the fireball idea. Follow orders from the GB even if they don't make sense. All governments and UN are controlled by Satan.
...no they won't find any extremist literature in the Kingdom Hall.
 +7 / -0
Beth Sarim
Beth Sarim 21 days ago
Not extremist at all.
 +2 / -0
Listener
Listener 21 days ago
If the literature is being planted then where is the government obtaining this literature from? Are the Russians making a special request to the USA to mail them this literature or having special agents smuggle it in?
There are enough confessions in their own textbooks to show that they have no problem with breaking the law by distributing banned literature.
 +6 / -0
OneEyedJoe
OneEyedJoe 21 days ago

There are enough confessions in their own textbooks to show that they have no problem with breaking the law by distributing banned literature.

This.
They love to give the examples of police searching people's houses or KHs for literature and not finding it even though it was sitting in plain sight, and they claim this is evidence of god's blessing. They can't have it both ways - either god is blessing them and they're getting away with having banned literature or they've removed all banned literature to comply with the law (as claimed in the video). It's one or the other.
In the video they try to show that authorities are planting evidence but they give no support to this. They show one instance where a cop has a book (bible teach) that he reasonably claims was to be used to quickly identify banned literature. The JWs claim that his intention was to plant this during his search. Was he? Maybe. Do they have any compelling evidence of that? No.
Second case they show is of someone planting books prior to an inspection. Was this authorities planting evidence? It's later revealed in passing that it was a former study, not police, that planted the books. Likely a tip was called in to the police about the banned literature - are they to blame for following up on a tip? It's hardly persecution when the police rightly perform their job and inspect a group that's known to have broken the law in the past. An interesting question, though, is where did this former study get the literature? Only place that makes sense is that he got it from a JW. So maybe they don't keep it at the kingdom hall, maybe they've just got a good hiding spot, but they're still breaking the law.
Last case of supposed planting of evidence by authorities is completely without any basis. They say that police did an inspection and found banned materials and it is assumed ("most think" it was planted - 4:04 in the video) that they were planted because the ever-righteous JWs had gotten rid of their banned literature. But again, this is clearly crap because the JWs have the literature and proudly relate stories of successfully bypassing bans. Maybe most JWs there think it was planted, I think it wasn't. Who cares unless they can show some evidence of wrongdoing?
Having said that, I don't agree with a ban on literature. I think freedom of speech is important, and I don't think the russians are going about this the right way in their (well intentioned) effort to keep their population safe from this dangerous cult. But even so, it looks to me like it's more likely that this video is wildly deceptive and the problem of planted evidence is not what they're making it out to be.
 +2 / -0
alcyone
alcyone 21 days ago

It is an irony JW elders do not allow to record a judicial committee (you need to use "Rahab tactics"if you want to have it), but WTS proudly presents JWs filming policemen in Crimea. A bit hypocritical, isn't it?

 +6 / -0
David Graham
David Graham 21 days ago
I'm curious. How did they conduct the meeting? Did they have to improvise? If so, wouldn't this constitute going against the governing body, or even going ahead of the chariot?
I think we all know there is no way a meeting could be conducted without some sort of litriture to prop them up... Or was it that pesky holy spirit again?!
 +2 / -0
Beth Sarim
Beth Sarim 21 days ago

Maybe they're getting ready to command ''strange instructions'', hm??
 +4 / -0
freddo
freddo 21 days ago

I love the way you see all the legal developments effecting JW's on jwdotorgasm. It's all there. Nothing hidden. Warts and all.
Pages and pages of stuff about the Australian Royal Commission's investigations into institutional responses to child abuse case study 29 for example ...
Geoffrey Jackson's holy spirit directed testimony to the ARC as another example ...
And of course Candace Conti ...
... ...
Then I woke up!
 +5 / -0
David Graham
David Graham 21 days ago
I think the frase is "hidden in plain site" its there to see if one knows what to look for. Propaganda is not a hard thing to decipher once we know what we are looking for.
Those who choose to believe will only believe what they are given to believe.
 +2 / -0
biblexaminer
biblexaminer 21 days ago

It suddenly occurred to me that it would be a good way to convince the world of the Governing Body's intentions if they renamed the title the Kindly Governing Body.
Can we make an acronym from that?
 +1 / -0
Skedaddle
Skedaddle 21 days ago

In this case my money is on the cops planting and the supposed ex jdub being a cop or mib also because why would you want a u.s. based international religion with a legit reason to nosey round your country whilst you're at war with u.s.?! At the very least it provides a disguise for an imposter, at most... well...
 
DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG 21 days ago

That forum is full of insane people. They are deluded nutters.
FACT: The WTBTS disobeys the Superior Authorities in such locations as China and Russia in order to "preach" WTBTS dogma. They produce literature, or smuggle literature that is considered extreme by those countries. In China, dubs will "preach" in Internet cafes by leaving the web-pages to JW.Borg open for others to see. They don't speak and change locations periodically.
No Government needs to plant JW literature anywhere. It's already there. Also, no "GOD" needs JWs to break the laws of the Superior Authorities to make a truth know to anyone.
Fact: JWs show great disrespect to GOD, by disobeying him. In essence, the WTBTS says, "Jeehoobidoober cannot get the job done. We need to break the law to make sure Jeehoober does thing right."
That is called a "lack of faith", which is a sin that easily ensnares, according to the Bible. Too bad the WTBTS produces more WT magazines and Watchtards, than Bibles and Bible Students.
DD
 +4 / -0
David Graham
David Graham 21 days ago

Skedaddle So you think this is a huge plot by those pesky Russians to discredit America even more? If that is indeed the case, then why didn't Russia release the video? Wouldn't it make more sense for Russia to release a propaganda video?



This is nothing to do with the current cold war climate involving America and Russia. This has everything to do with the watchtower using propaganda to its fullest to try and strong-arm their way back into Russia. There is so much that is wrong with this video that has been released.



Something else I noticed. The guy who is "planting" the books has a camera pointed at him. Isn't this a security camera? If so, why is it moving conveniently to show said guy "planting" the books? Surely, if this was indeed planting of books, this would not be filmed by Russian authorities, wouldn't that be a rather stupid decision to take!
 
konceptual99
konceptual99 21 days ago

In my personal opinion, whatever individual feelings about the nature of JW teachings and the danger posed about them, this type of activity by the authorities should be robustly condemned.
Fundamentally Jehovah's Witnesses do have the freedom to do what they do under Russian law yet the authorities insist on twisting the legal system and resorting to underhand tactics to try and put them in the same box as all the other undesirables identified by the corrupt leadership.
Bear in mind that the same methods are being used against homosexuals, transgender people, political dissidents, similar religions and other minorities to suppress free speech and free will.
The fact that this type of behaviour is sanctioned from the top down should be ringing alarm bells about how far Russia really has come in terms of embracing an open society.
Pushing these people underground has never stopped them. Years of persecution under the communist regime did nothing to prevent the spread of the creed. What is more, JWs love a good persecution story. It simply reinforces their faith. There is plenty of content in the literature that has been openly exposed to allow people to see what is really in there. In fact, if the Russian authorities would be far better helping translate some of the best sites (e.g. jwfacts) into Russian and tweaking their firewalls to point requests to jw.org to Russia language content that exposes the teachings for the bunch of junk they really are.
 +2 / -0
konceptual99
konceptual99 21 days ago

In my personal opinion, whatever individual feelings about the nature of JW teachings and the danger posed about them, this type of activity by the authorities should be robustly condemned.
Fundamentally Jehovah's Witnesses do have the freedom to do what they do under Russian law yet the authorities insist on twisting the legal system and resorting to underhand tactics to try and put them in the same box as all the other undesirables identified by the corrupt leadership.
Bear in mind that the same methods are being used against homosexuals, transgender people, political dissidents, similar religions and other minorities to suppress free speech and free will.
The fact that this type of behaviour is sanctioned from the top down should be ringing alarm bells about how far Russia really has come in terms of embracing an open society.
Pushing these people underground has never stopped them. Years of persecution under the communist regime did nothing to prevent the spread of the creed. What is more, JWs love a good persecution story. It simply reinforces their faith. There is plenty of content in the literature that has been openly exposed to allow people to see what is really in there. In fact, if the Russian authorities would be far better helping translate some of the best sites (e.g. jwfacts) into Russian and tweaking their firewalls to point requests to jw.org to Russia language content that exposes the teachings for the bunch of junk they really are.
 
konceptual99
konceptual99 21 days ago

In my personal opinion, whatever individual feelings about the nature of JW teachings and the danger posed about them, this type of activity by the authorities should be robustly condemned.
Fundamentally Jehovah's Witnesses do have the freedom to do what they do under Russian law yet the authorities insist on twisting the legal system and resorting to underhand tactics to try and put them in the same box as all the other undesirables identified by the corrupt leadership.
Bear in mind that the same methods are being used against homosexuals, transgender people, political dissidents, similar religions and other minorities to suppress free speech and free will.
The fact that this type of behaviour is sanctioned from the top down should be ringing alarm bells about how far Russia really has come in terms of embracing an open society.
Pushing these people underground has never stopped them. Years of persecution under the communist regime did nothing to prevent the spread of the creed. What is more, JWs love a good persecution story. It simply reinforces their faith. There is plenty of content in the literature that has been openly exposed to allow people to see what is really in there. In fact, if the Russian authorities would be far better helping translate some of the best sites (e.g. jwfacts) into Russian and tweaking their firewalls to point requests to jw.org to Russia language content that exposes the teachings for the bunch of junk they really are.
 
konceptual99
konceptual99 21 days ago
grrrrrrr - duplicates thanks to this processing issue....
 +1 / -0

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Watchtower go full on propaganda!
by David Graham 21 days ago 34 Replies latest 18 days ago   watchtower scandals
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Room 215
Room 215 21 days ago
"Billions of people are going to be destroyed in a messy angelic fireball. Cut off family who disagree with the fireball idea. Follow orders from the GB even if they don't make sense. All governments and UN are controlled by Satan.
...no they won't find any extremist literature in the Kingdom Hall"
Beautifully said, SBF!
 +3 / -0
Skedaddle
Skedaddle 20 days ago

data dog,
Yep, fully agree with your post. Jdubs do scary stuff to get their literature out there into peoples hands and have a history of it. Who planted the books is actually irrelevant and i was just having a bit of fun like whodunnit because its the small fight, the obvious distraction...
David graham,
It's not a huge plot, it's a silly little video of distraction which i watched once and laughed. There's 4 agendas at play in this topic. 1. The puppet jdubs, 2. Whoever controls watchtower, 3. The security of a country in this case russky's. 4. The intelligence of the countries with an interest in this case u.s. but as we know watchtower is international so any country's intelligence with an interest.
Agenda of 1 is irrelevant so long as they are who they say they are - normal jdub door knockers, missionaries, preachers.
Agenda of 2, 3 and 4 is where the game is.
Agenda 3 is why this vid even exists so to say it's got nothing to do with it does not make sense at all. Very naive!
Common knowledge that 4 uses 1 as a guise if it wants hence why immediately a country with agenda 3 would restrict certain religions and organizations with capabilities of agenda 1 and 2 and removing their literature gets rid of the risk posed by preaching as a guise and money movements etc. Question of interest for this forum is, is 2 aware or not about the ways they can be used by 4.
 
Mephis
Mephis 20 days ago

They certainly are keen to highlight when their religious freedoms are in danger. Things like child abuse not so much.
Agree with konceptual for reasons given in other threads. 'Extremist literature' in the terms currently being used in Russia is so generally applied at the moment that anything could be banned under it if the authorities wanted to, Orwell for example. JWs are being wrongfully treated in Russia at the moment. As are a large number of other 'minority' groups who are being targeted for not conforming sufficiently.
 +0 / -1
Skedaddle
Skedaddle 20 days ago

I'm all for freedom of speech, expression, to practice whatever religion etc. you want but when that is applied to a cult like JW's, who uses mind control, hate speech, lies and misdirections that separates families, kills people and leaves them with mental illness, just in order to keep it's members separate from society and make money, that freedom is abused by said cult and it's within the interests of the government to stop it as their capacity to look after the safety of the general public!
And that goes for any country!
 +1 / -1
Mephis
Mephis 20 days ago
JWs in Russia are considered 'extremist', by the law being used against them, because they teach that their religion is better than others. By that standard, every religion is extremist. I look forward to the Russian state closing down the Orthodox church. Vsya vlast sovetam and all that. Lots of wrong done by JWs. Some illegal stuff done by JWs. Introducing laws to persecute them, other minority religions, the LGBT community etc etc. is not really something anyone with half an ounce of sense would actively support.
 +0 / -1
Skedaddle
Skedaddle 20 days ago
There's about 10 twisted counter-arguments to make but I'm at work. I exclusively class JW's as extreme within your argument and do not see it as being related to any other religion or indeed any other community. If I was the leader of a country I would ban it on the grounds of mental health reasons. Whatever reason the Russky's have made could be not the full reason. I don't know as I haven't read about it.
 +2 / -1
Mephis
Mephis 20 days ago
That's kind of my point Skedaddle. But still you're cheering it on. You'd think stopping to read a bit before doing that would be useful. But clearly not. Any more Putin videos to share? They're at least amusing watching how an autocrat functions.
 
problemaddict 2
problemaddict 2 20 days ago

While no fan of the religion of Jehovahs Witnesses for a plethora of reasons, I am less of a fan of squelching free speech and in fact planting evidence against otherwise innocent people. This is so Russian its almost cartoonish.
They don't deserve it, and unfortunately the authorities there doing this may not even realize its just a rallying cry for the oppressed JW's earth wide. I'm pretty sure the Russian Orthodox Church clearly teaches everlasting hellfire for non believers. Is that really any more "extremist" than end times rhetoric?
JWtalk is hilarious. The comments.........."Russia has a powerful demon prince in charge! It must be soooooo close!"
 +1 / -0
problemaddict 2
problemaddict 2 20 days ago

Good grief....


 +2 / -0
Skedaddle
Skedaddle 19 days ago
@Mephis - I struggled to make sense of what I read to be honest. That could have been your fault or mine. From what I understand you were disagreeing with me and trying to make it sound like I'm cheering on laws that squash freedom of speech or freedoms of other groups to express themselves etc. which is not the case. For the record, I'm not a fan of the P. prince or his methods. Quite frankly he lets his ego take him to war like a fool but that's another conversation. If you say we're agreeing, then cool!
 
Beth Sarim
Beth Sarim 19 days ago

Skedaddle;
''I'm all for freedom of speech, expression, to practice whatever religion etc. you want but when that is applied to a cult like JW's, who uses mind control, hate speech, lies and misdirections that separates families, kills people and leaves them with mental illness, just in order to keep it's members separate from society and make money, that freedom is abused by said cult and it's within the interests of the government to stop it as their capacity to look after the safety of the general public!
And that goes for any country!''
Maybe that's because Russia sees the Borg for what it is and is doing something about it. Maybe others countries will follow suit.
 +1 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot 19 days ago


slimboyfat - "Billions of people are going to be destroyed in a messy angelic fireball. Cut off family who disagree with the fireball idea. Follow orders from the GB even if they don't make sense. All governments and UN are controlled by Satan...
No they won't find any extremist literature in the Kingdom Hall."
Beautifully put.
It's a lot easier to recognize the Kool-Aid for what it is when you're no longer drinking it, huh? :smirk:
 
Beth Sarim
Beth Sarim 19 days ago

''It's a lot easier to recognize the Kool-Aid for what it is when you're no longer drinking it, huh? :smirk:''
Unfortunately, people in the Borg don't even realize what they're doing before their entire life has passed them by.
 +1 / -0
cha ching
cha ching 18 days ago

If this WAS an ex-Bible study, where did he get the books, anyway? Hmmm?
The WT says "we removed the literature from the K Hall.... " they did not say that they "destroyed it", did they?
Was this person hired by the WT to make this video, so that they would have something to cry about? Sounds like there needs to be a bit more investigative reporting and fact finding.
 
Beth Sarim
Beth Sarim 18 days ago

"we removed the literature from the K Hall.... " they did not say that they "destroyed it", did they?'''
Very sly, manipulative words aren't they???
 +1 / -0

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i see the watchtower are getting extremely desperate now.http://jwtalk.net/forums/topic/25503-injustice-abounds-for-our-dear-russian-brothers/check out the professionally edited video, using professional equipment!



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My Millions book got a bad review. I wonder if the guy is a JW?
by punkofnice 9 hours ago 22 Replies latest 27 minutes ago   watchtower beliefs
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punkofnice
punkofnice 9 hours ago

1.0 out of 5 stars not deserving of a half star, March 5, 2016
By
Thomas Carr
This review is from: Millions Now Living (Kindle Edition)
slander of others religions is worse than Trump. instead of being ignorant read the bible and get the answers. you are not worshiping people you should weork towards woirshiping God. you learn about God by reading the bible not destroying freedom of religion. people that are afraid oif what they dont know becomes example of Hitler. be wise research and read the bible. have love for everyone.
....or a grump from here?
Anyway, I expect crtisism...but this is NOT a 'verified purchase' review, so I am suspicious.


 +4 / -0
LoveUniHateExams
LoveUniHateExams 9 hours ago

He sounds like a JW, Punk.
Ignore him.
Anyone who brings up the names 'Trump' & 'Hitler' in a review of a book criticizing the WT sounds like a total bellend to me.
have love for everyone - except for Catholics, atheists, evolutionists, df'd people, born-again xtians ... 
 +10 / -0
compound complex
compound complex 9 hours ago

Greetings, Punk:
The poor reviewer badly needs a good editor. I'm not volunteering. First, however, some remedial English grammar would be in order so that the editor might have a fighting chance.
The portions of your book that I have read, Punk, are technically excellent. Do I go to Amazon to continue my perusal of your worthy tome?
CoCo, content & copy editor
 +7 / -0
just fine
just fine 9 hours ago
Sounds like a JW to me.
 +3 / -0
punkofnice
punkofnice 9 hours ago

LUHE - Yes, whenever Hitler or the Nazis are mentioned, it's game over for the person writing the review.
CoCo - Thank you. I wonder how a person can 'weork towards' anything? I tried 'weoking' but I cannot find it in any dictionary...not even Google translate.
Just fine - I agree. I don't think any other non JW believer would be bothered.
 +4 / -0
jookbeard
jookbeard 8 hours ago
put a link up for it Punky I'll give it a proper review
 +4 / -0
steve2
steve2 8 hours ago

Here's a splendid opportunity for someone to "review" the reviewer and perhaps comment on the badly reasoned statements and the poor grammar.
Im at my place of employment now so time is necessarily limited. But if you supply a link, Punkonice, I'm happy to do so when I'm back home.
 +4 / -0
punkofnice
punkofnice 8 hours ago

thanks Jooky....and Steve2
UK link - http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B013B51GSU?*Version*=1&*entries*=0
USA link - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B013B51GSU?*Version*=1&*entries*=0
AU - http://www.amazon.com.au/gp/product/B013B51GSU?*Version*=1&*entries*=0
 
Vidiot
Vidiot 7 hours ago

What is it with rabid JW loyalists who can't help but rant on the net?
You'd think that if they wanted people to understand and respect what they had to say, they'd make an effort to spell correctly...


 +2 / -0
talesin
talesin 7 hours ago

It's a fundy, JW or troll. *poof*
Did I hear something? Oh, the buzzing of a fly? *SWAT* That's one nuisance you're rid of. :xx
 +3 / -0
talesin
talesin 7 hours ago

Vidiot - anger = fear and / or pain ; rants are usually inspired by a wound that is being poked, and very human. Especially when the person ranting feels misjudged, or knows they are wrong and are using bluster as a deflection of their insecurities about their beliefs or perceptions of unfair treatment.
But hell to the yeah, use spell check if you want your rant to be read. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:
 
GodZoo
GodZoo 7 hours ago

Just curious.. does anyone who does not give a stella review any book written by an ex-jw have to get slated and insulted in here? Is it really that important? Have people not learned to manage rejection and non-acceptance still?
One does not also need to have had to pay for something in order to be able to review it. I have reviewed a ton of books and products that I did not buy.. ie: was given, borrowed or found.
What is it with this?:
◦You did not pay me so your opinion is invalid
◦You did not say nice things so your opinion is invalid.
◦My friends and I will now pick you to pieces and insult and deride you publicly on an ex-jw forum.
Why not simply just ignore it? It's not like they boiled a baby in oil..
A world with just one viewpoint would be such a boring place.
 
jookbeard
jookbeard 7 hours ago
my review is up Punky
 +1 / -0
Harvard Illiterate 411
Harvard Illiterate 411 7 hours ago
Sounds like fundie of some wacko religion and probably a Mittens Magic Undies Romney supporter.

 
steve2
steve2 6 hours ago

Here's the comment on the review I have posted on Amazon.com:
"I am astonished that, to date, the single bad review for this excellent insight into jw org has been written by an individual, Mr Thomas Carr, who appears not to have even bothered to read Paul Jackson's well researched book. If Mr Carr had read the book, rather than engage in a torrent of uninformed verbal abuse, he would have food for thought about the dubious methods used by some religious groups.
"I remember one of the Jehovah's Witnesses' publications from the 1960s, the "Truth" book. It invited readers to scrutinze their religious beliefs, reasoning that if their beliefs were true they had nothing to fear from scrutinizing them, but if those beliefs were false, they owed it to themselves to find out rather than to remain misled. This encouragement to scrutinize religious beliefs was directed at people in all other religions, but NOT to Jehovah's Witnesses. Funny that.
"So, Mr Carr, you owe it to yourself to scrutinze your religious beliefs for, to paraphrase one of JWs own publications, if your beliefs are true, you have nothing to fear. But to resort to knee-jerk attacking of a book without even first reading it, is not the response of someone who is confident they have the truth but instead of fearing perhaps they do not." GodZoo wrote: Just curious.. does anyone who does not give a stella review any book written by an ex-jw have to get slated and insulted in here? Is it really that important? Have people not learned to manage rejection and non-acceptance still? Reasonable point. Who said criticizing a review has anything to do with 'managing rejection and non-acceptance'? Even the OP acknowledge there would inevitably be negative reviews. The chief point was the "reviewer" did not appear to have even read the book - so it calls into question whether it even was a "review". Besides, it's that sound distinction between constructive criticism - which furthers discussion and learning - and evident automatic condemnation. Note that the "reviewer" cites not one single statement from the book but trundles out the usual labels. Long may we develop greater acceptance of c onstructive criticism - whether by JWs, ex-JWs or anyone else. But equally, may we have the confidence and clarity of thought to identify and name shoddy thinking!  
 +4 / -0
GrreatTeacher
GrreatTeacher 6 hours ago

If I were to read the reviews in the service of making a decision about the purchase of a book, I would consider the sentiments in aggregate and likely wouldn't be swayed by the odd review that stands in contrast to the majority.
In other words, I think it's safe to ignore that review. It likely won't sway anyone's opinion.
 +1 / -0
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 5 hours ago


My Millions book got a bad review. I wonder if the guy is a JW?

By
Thomas Carr
This review is from: Millions Now Living (Kindle Edition)
slander of others religions is worse than Trump. instead of being ignorant read the bible and get the answers. you are not worshiping people you should weork towards woirshiping God. you learn about God by reading the bible not destroying freedom of religion. people that are afraid oif what they dont know becomes example of Hitler. be wise research and read the bible. have love for everyone.
Took Offense to Anything Negative about the WBT$.....Bad Spelling.....Evoked Godwins Law..
There`s "high probability" he`s a JW.......LOL!!..
 +2 / -0
GodZoo
GodZoo 4 hours ago
Fair points Steve but I just don't see the point of getting so riled about it.
 
steve2
steve2 4 hours ago

Okay GodZoo - I may have missed something, but I thought the OP and subsequent responses weren't that 'riled up' and conveyed reasonable points about the content of the "review". THough it is possible you and me have different defintions of what 'riled up' is.
Here's the OP's sole comments after p[osting the review - riled up? I don't think so:
....or a grump from here?
Anyway, I expect crtisism...but this is NOT a 'verified purchase' review, so I am suspicious.
 
talesin
talesin 3 hours ago

GodZoo, I get your point in a general way, but looking at this specific review, and its irrational, disconnected spewing of hate, it seems to me that it's most likely what Punk suspects. It's neither constructive nor is it artistic criticism. It is more like hate speech.
I've had many people like my sculptures, and sold 100++. Not everyone loves them, that is true. If someone said my sculptures looked like something you could buy at the $$ store, manufactured by the thousands, and were poorly crafted, copies of XXX artist, I just *might* feel the need to vent.
Especially if I suspected *that* person was the failed artist, that couldn't pay people to take his work, who would do / say anything to put me down. (edit, and it's very hurtful)
That's my take on Punky's rant.
 

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My Millions book got a bad review. I wonder if the guy is a JW?
by punkofnice 9 hours ago 22 Replies latest 28 minutes ago   watchtower beliefs
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sparky1
sparky1 3 hours ago



 
GodZoo
GodZoo an hour ago

This one?
------------------------
not deserving of a half star 6 Mar. 2016
By Thomas Carr - Published on Amazon.com
Format: Kindle Edition
slander of others religions is worse than Trump. instead of being ignorant read the bible and get the answers. you are not worshiping people you should weork towards woirshiping God. you learn about God by reading the bible not destroying freedom of religion. people that are afraid oif what they dont know becomes example of Hitler. be wise research and read the bible. have love for everyone.
---------------
Is that it? Is this what the drama is all about?
Of course the subject matter of the book alone guarantees one will attract all sorts of people including your nut job extremist JW's. But I hardly see his little rant and anything to get upset
As regards the guys grammar and spelling it sounds like English might not even be his first language. I see people in this forum apologising for their formatting/spelling/grammar all the the time especially when posting using mobile devices. People posy in here when totally drunk!. Again not a big deal.
 
DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG 28 minutes ago

From the sentence structure, I doubt the "critic" could read your book and obtain anything even close to comprehension.
DD
 

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not deserving of a half star, march 5, 2016bythomas carrthis review is from: millions now living (kindle edition)slander of others religions is worse than trump.
instead of being ignorant read the bible and get the answers.
you are not worshiping people you should weork towards woirshiping god.



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/ Porn and the JW problem, well all of our problem :)
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Porn and the JW problem, well all of our problem :)
by pleaseresearch a day ago 38 Replies latest 40 minutes ago   watchtower beliefs
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pleaseresearch
pleaseresearch a day ago

Growing up the internet was starting out and it became big just as something between my legs became much bigger.
Porn for me was used to learn about sex and the different positions and places it can be had. Although how porn movies starts never happens in real life.
Just wondering if you had an issue with porn before or now. I know it's a touchy subject but I have the biggest respect for Terry Crews who came out and admitted he had a massive problem with it.
I think most JWs have had to fight back, because being told constantly to be good, we can only do that for so long.



I have had an issue with porn and still watch from time to time.
 +5 / -1
sir82
sir82 a day ago


I know it's a touchy subject
I see what you did there

 +11 / -0
WTWizard
WTWizard a day ago

Not a big deal. I watch it from time to time, but I do not spend all day watching porn. And I am not going to get so into it that I cannot see when the big silver price smash happens so I can get another roll of silver coins. I also enjoy video games, Christmas decorations, and so on.
This is similar to buying lottery tickets. It is fine to buy scratch off tickets from time to time, but the one that wastes most of his disposable income playing scratch-offs probably has a gambling problem. This also applies to porn. Watched occasionally, fine. But when it gets so you are watching it all day, it is another distraction that can prevent you from preparing for real issues.
But, even then it is better than those religions that waste all your time. Preparing for boasting sessions, that damnation book, wasting all your money (and no, you can't decide that you are going to cut back this week as you can with gambling), and obsession with a character that didn't even exist and with a condition that is made up to enslave you and the whole human race is far worse.

 +6 / -0
freemindfade
freemindfade a day ago

All I know is every watchtower article mentions it. Doesn't matter the subject, this last weeks study was on "brotherly love" and they still managed to talk about "viewing pornography"
The obsession with what people do with their genitals, and the effort to control it is pretty standard in controlling institutions such as religion. Its not healthy.
 +7 / -0
Barrold Bonds
Barrold Bonds a day ago
I watch porn and jerk off multiple times I day. I pretty much need scenes involving the degradation of women. Pissing, shitting, vomiting, you name it, I crank off to it.
 +2 / -22
brandnew
brandnew a day ago




 +3 / -0
DesirousOfChange
DesirousOfChange a day ago

I think it is an accepted fact now that Porn can be addictive and harmful for some individuals, just as can alcohol, drugs, and perhaps even some foods. There really is a mental-health diagnosis termed "sexual addiction". That does not mean it is harmful for everyone.

It seems some (most) individuals or couples can take it or leave it. Watch it or read it from time to time and perhaps it even improves their quality of life. But for others it clearly can be the path to a downward spiral that brings problems, trouble, and despair to their life and relationships.
Just as if you cannot enjoy alcohol in a healthy and moderate manner, you should not drink or at least restrict/limit your use of it, so too it is with porn.
Be well,
Doc

 +10 / -0
Doubtfully Yours
Doubtfully Yours a day ago

Porn is quite a 'society at large' illness, due to our innate imperfection and sexual nature. It is not a JW phenomenon or problem.
Recently on CNN, a male star came out with a story of how porn ruined his life and marriage. And such as his are countless stories of the damage the porn industry has done to society.
Like it or not, the WTBTS is on the right regarding this disgusting industry.
DY
 +3 / -6
JRK
JRK a day ago




 +9 / -0
Divergent
Divergent a day ago
I was a wanker, literally. Used to watch porn all the time when I was single. Getting into a steady relationship (non-JW) was the savior. Nothing beats the real thing! =)
 +2 / -1
stan livedeath
stan livedeath a day ago
weve made a few of our own. for a rainy day kinda thing.
 +4 / -1
freemindfade
freemindfade a day ago

It is much funner to be in one than watch one... just saying...
 +2 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein a day ago

Yes Porn can be addictive and ruin relationships, even marriages out that addiction.

I watched a few briefly to see if i could find out more about human sexuality, which I could say I did a little.

Overall though I could also see that it was degrading and exploitative for woman in its presentation.
Porn exploits men and their sexual desires plain and simple, it does so without any responsible sociology concerns.

It is sold and presented as something rebellious and perhaps evil to watch and that's also the reason why rebellious adolescents are attracted to it, as its target marketed under that premise.

Sex to me is something not very alluring to watch are biological parts including anuses are something I would call pleasing to look at. In other words I would refuse an offer to watch a couple have sex with me as a viewer at the foot of the bed in close proximity.
Not my cup of tea.
 +3 / -2
Finkelstein
Finkelstein a day ago

Yes Porn can be addictive and ruin relationships, even marriages out that addiction.

I watched a few briefly to see if i could find out more about human sexuality, which I could say I did a little.

Overall though I could also see that it was degrading and exploitative for woman in its presentation.
Porn exploits men and their sexual desires plain and simple, it does so without any responsible sociology concerns.

It is sold and presented as something rebellious and perhaps evil to watch and that's also the reason why rebellious adolescents are attracted to it, as its target marketed under that premise.

Sex to me is something not very alluring to watch are biological parts including anuses are something I wouldn't call pleasing to look at. In other words I would refuse an offer to watch a couple have sex with me as viewer at the foot of the bed in close proximity.
Not my cup of tea.
 +0 / -2
Island Man
Island Man a day ago

I think porn is only a problem for people who have a problem with porn; just as alcohol abuse and overeating are only problems for people who have problems with alcohol and food.
Porn is not for everyone. But that's not the same as saying it's bad for everyone. Religion likes to manipulate people's sex lives and make them feel guilty about sex and nudity.
When Watchtower relates experiences of people who felt guilty after committing pre-marital sex, that guilt is born of a conscience that has been corrupted with prudish, anti-sex religious propaganda.
Religion's taboo treatment of sex and nudity also contributes to people's attraction to pornography. It clothes sex with certain flavor of mystery and forbiddenness that only evokes greater curiosity but with the added pitfall of unfounded guilt and shame.
I only had a "problem" with pornography when I bought into the religious B.S. The extent of that problem? Secretly watching porn about twice a week and feeling guilty about it. Now that I no longer buy into the religious BS, I watch some porn only when I feel like it - maybe once or twice per month, or even less. Religion manufactures problems that aren't really there.
 +8 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein a day ago


Watching pornography damages men's brains
Regularly viewing sexually explicit videos causes the brain to shrink and work less effectively








 



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Research has shown that watching pornography may shrink the brain and dull responses to sexual stimulation
Research has shown that watching pornography may shrink the brain and dull responses to sexual stimulation Photo: ALAMY



Sarah Knapton
By  Sarah Knapton, Science Correspondent
2:27PM BST 29 May 2014


Comments103 Comments



Watching pornography may shrink the brain and dull responses to sexual stimulation, researchers have suggested.

Scientists have found for the first time that regularly viewing sexual images could be physically harmful.

Researchers from the Max Planck Institute in Berlin found that a part of the brain which activates when people feel motivated or rewarded, shrinks and works less efficiently.

So people who watch a lot of porn are likely to need increasingly graphic material to achieve the same sexual stimulation.

The scientists also believe that people who already have a smaller ‘striatum’ – the reward part of the brain – may be more likely to use pornography.


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“It's not clear, for example, whether watching porn leads to brain changes or whether people born with certain brain types watch more porn,” said Dr Simone Kühn.
“We found that the volume of the so-called striatum, a brain region that has been associated with reward processing and motivated behavior was smaller the more pornography consumption the participants reported.
“Moreover we found that another brain region, that is also part of the striatum that is active when people see sexual stimuli, shows less activation the more pornography participants consumed.”
For the study, Dr Kuhn and her colleague Jurgen Gallinat from Charite University, also in Berlin, recruited 64 healthy men between the ages of 21 and 45 years and asked them questions about their porn-watching habits.
They also took images of the men’s brains to measure volume and to see how their brains reacted to pornographic pictures.
They found noticeable differences in the men who abstained compared with those who regularly accessed sexual videos or images.
However other researchers claimed that pornography in moderation was probably not damaging.
“Everything is going to be bad in excess and it’s probably not terrible in moderation,” Dr Gregory Tau of the Columbia University
Dr Tau, who was not involved with the study, agreed that more research should be done in this area and that longer studies would be need to find out if porn leads to brain changes.
“It is possible that there are individuals with a certain kind of brain that are more susceptible to these kinds of behaviors,” he said.
“Or, it’s possible it’s the excessive use (of porn) that’s perpetuating itself to causing brain changes. Or, it could be both.”
The study was published in JAMA Psychiatry.
 +1 / -3
Dick Trashy
Dick Trashy a day ago

Like my mamma always used to say, 'if you jerk off all day you will go blind'
Now I collect disability for my blindness and still jerk off.

 +6 / -0
Barrold Bonds
Barrold Bonds a day ago
Finkelstein must have aspergers or something if he doesn't find sex alluring lol
 +1 / -3
Barrold Bonds
Barrold Bonds a day ago
I think I'm gonna watch some when I get home. Anyone have a favorite porn star I can crank off to?
 +2 / -3
Finkelstein
Finkelstein a day ago

Human sexuality had been so longing repressed mostly by social moral standards influenced by religious teachings as something purportedly shameful and guilt ridden.
The opening up and disregarding those old moral statues happened during the 1960's sexual revolution.
Free love and open experimentation of human sexuality was the social awareness of the time and that's where the pron industry got its being foundation.
Personally I think Porn sends out a bad representation of human sexual behavior overall, particularly towards teenagers who this product is being target marketed to.
Porn may just become another self destructive vice like what booze and drugs can be.
The psychological damaging effects to some are being noticed and realized now.

 +3 / -2

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Porn and the JW problem, well all of our problem :)
by pleaseresearch a day ago 38 Replies latest 43 minutes ago   watchtower beliefs
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Finkelstein
Finkelstein a day ago

Finkelstein must have aspergers or something if he doesn't find sex alluring lol
No I still find sex alluring as a healthy male would but I find porn repulsive and degrading on a human sociological level.

To openly say I love Porn is defining ones own character and personality in itself .
Which isn't a good thing.

 +4 / -3
Finkelstein
Finkelstein a day ago

Finkelstein must have aspergers or something if he doesn't find sex alluring lol
No I still find sex alluring as a healthy male would but I find porn repulsive and degrading on a human sociological level.

To openly say I love Porn is defining ones own character and personality in itself .
Which isn't a good thing.
 +1 / -3
SonoftheTrinity
SonoftheTrinity 5 hours ago

The cure for porn is nudism.
 +2 / -0
LoveUniHateExams
LoveUniHateExams 5 hours ago

Porn and the JW problem, well all of our problem
Porn isn't a problem, I like it.
 +2 / -0
LoveUniHateExams
LoveUniHateExams 5 hours ago

Anyone have a favorite porn star I can crank off to? 
Katja Kassin used to do it for me.
 +1 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 5 hours ago

The Porn industry exploits nudism of physically young attractive girls and men who are poor, who look attractive nude. Unfortunately the industry apathetically shows little social psychological concern towards these easily exploitable people. Start waving hundred dollar bills in front of an 18 year old teenager who also wants attention and acceptance as an adult and you'd be shocked to what you can persuade them to do or to them.

This is why the State of California is being pushed to create regulatory laws that sets the age limit for Porn performers to 21 rather than 18.

 +1 / -2
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 4 hours ago

The thing about the Porn industry is that it is wholly concerned and only focused upon cultivating money. $$$

How their product effects people who are in their industry or to its consumers is apathetically irrelevant.

So if their product instigates sexual deviant behavior or psychological problems to its consumers, this has no forwarding concern ....... its again about the money.

Like drug pushers looking for people to accept what they are selling and if they get addicted all the better, that's the way porn producers think and act.

Something to reflect upon ..... if you were a parent and your pubescent son or daughter asked about sexuality ,
would tell then or offer them Porn movies to watch and say... " Hey Kids watch Porn , that's the best way to learn
about human sexuality. "

 +2 / -2
LoveUniHateExams
LoveUniHateExams 4 hours ago

Aw, c'mon Fink, please allow adult performers and consumers of pornography their own agency. It's unrealistic to expect adults to be shielded from the consequences of their own decisions.
And why are you bringing kids into it?
Of course no parent in their right mind would encourage their kids to watch porn.
 
SonoftheTrinity
SonoftheTrinity 4 hours ago
I'm glad you included the exploitation of men in the equation Finkelstein. It's men's desires that are being exploited, and men are probably exploited more than women in the Porn industry when you consider that performing gay porn is practically a prerequisite for performing straight porn. If more men were educated about that, they would lose interest especially in hardcore pornography.
 +1 / -0
C0ntr013r
C0ntr013r 4 hours ago

Not the same thing but still interesting...



http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/844820

NEW ORLEANS — Good news, men: you may be able to decrease your risk for prostate cancer by ejaculating — frequently, according to research presented here at American Urological Association 2015 Annual Meeting.


After potential confounders were controlled for, the risk for prostate cancer was 20% lower in men who ejaculated at least 21 times a month than in men who ejaculated 4 to 7 times a month. The 20% risk reduction was seen at ages 20 to 29 and 40 to 49, and for the lifetime average (P trend < .0001 for all).






 
sparky1
sparky1 3 hours ago






Finkelstein, watch this video. Some of what this young woman went through in her childhood will break your heart. (She is born again and saved by Jesus. In my opinion she traded one addiction for another and I cannot agree with her religious outlook. And, she probably embellished some of her life experiences to pander to her audience.) Many, many posters here are mortified about child abusers but seem to forget that many men and women who were abused as children become involved in the pornography industry as a way to 'act out' and get paid for it.
 
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 3 hours ago

It's men's desires that are being exploited, and men are probably exploited more than women in the Porn industry
Yes absolutely

At what other costs to the rest of population though ?

There used to be nudity magazines before Pron came around which is easily available in every home that has the inter net .C0ntr013r

 +0 / -1
Hadriel
Hadriel 3 hours ago

My only comment on this is the following: Why was my well trained JW mind at 13 thinking crap up that I had never seen or even heard of.
Fantasy in general must be healthy or have some value. Although I've never studied this I highly doubt I'm the only one that had a similar experience as a young teenager. In other words why does this happen with literally no outside input? In my case about as run of the mill as you get so why with such a guarded upbringing and with a lack of outside exposure did this happen? You have to sort of ponder that.
I don't condone or defend anything a given couple might feel is enjoyable to their relationship. Like all things too much is counterproductive. In some relationships I think it would be damaging from the start.
However bottom line is stay out of people's bedrooms is my point.
Why we're at it why are there hookers at the city gates, concubines and so on in the bible? For those that are rigid maybe explain that.
Explain why Samson for example picked up a hooker at the gate and "went in to her" then shacked up with and fornicated with Deliliah for several nights and then finally received Jah's favor to take out the Philistines?
 +2 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 3 hours ago

Stating what the ancients supposedly did proves what from a sociological perspective and how Pornography effects humanity today.
If you think I'm taking an anti Porn stance because of religious beliefs your way off and should we in the view of engaging responsibility toward all concerned ?
Here's a video that shows the causative effects of the Porn industry that lured young naive impression people into it and the results of their involvement.
The ones that didn't commit suicide or died of a drug overdose or Aids, lived on to suffer the social stigma from being in the industry for the rest of their lives.

You can turn off the annoying music and just watch the vid.





 +0 / -1
Hadriel
Hadriel 2 hours ago

@Fink look it may not be for you or I but my point is simple it's not for you or I to decide. Gotta stay outta people's bedrooms IMO.
Also I could parade the same types of stories about wingsuiting, extreme sports in general, sports careers in general and much much more. Excess is excess. Doesn't matter the business vertical its in, it's all the same.
 +1 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 2 hours ago

I'm not interested in what people do in their bedrooms .

This isn't about human sexuality in general, its about selling or commercializing human sexuality as it is by these companies/business.

Sounds like your portraying the old apathetic adage that if isn't my young daughter or son involved doing this , its all OK.
Or I'm not addicted to Porn so whats the big deal.

 +0 / -1
Sabin
Sabin an hour ago

Barrold Bonds, you don't need to see porn, you need to see a psychiatrist.
 +2 / -0
Freeandclear
Freeandclear an hour ago

This post has been rated  click to view
 
Witness My Fury
Witness My Fury 43 minutes ago

I think I'm gonna watch some when I get home. Anyone have a favorite porn star I can crank off to?
Back in their time (probably 10 years ago) Lara Stevens and Simony Diamond.
 

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Topic Summary
growing up the internet was starting out and it became big just as something between my legs became much bigger.. porn for me was used to learn about sex and the different positions and places it can be had.
although how porn movies starts never happens in real life.. just wondering if you had an issue with porn before or now.
i know it's a touchy subject but i have the biggest respect for terry crews who came out and admitted he had a massive problem with it.. i think most jws have had to fight back, because being told constantly to be good, we can only do that for so long.. .



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Does Anyone Have Any Information on Jane Ulrich (Painter Margaret 'Keane' Palfrey's Daughter)?
by r.a.m. a year ago 4 Replies latest a year ago   jw friends
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r.a.m.
r.a.m. a year ago

Hello. Famous painter Margaret Keane's 1975 Awake! life-story speaks about her baptism with her daughter Jane Ulrich. She mentions how her daughter progressed quickly and wanted to be a missionary.
Does anyone know if Jane pursued this or remained a Witness. I'm assuming that she is still in because the two appear together in press junket photos for the film Big Eyes. Then again maybe Hollywood is necessary family business.
I'm writing an article and need to fill in some blanks.
Thanks!
 
Gayle
Gayle a year ago

Please keep us posted on your findings, r.a.m. Thx.
 
TerryWalstrom
TerryWalstrom a year ago

Some random thoughts in the comments here:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/286849/how-jehovahs-witness-participated-one-great-art-frauds-20th-century?page=1&size=20

 
TerryWalstrom
TerryWalstrom a year ago

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/286860/newspaper-interview-jehovahs-witness-margaret-keene-future-movie-art-fraud
 
Miles
Miles a year ago
I guess you have not seen the movie Big Eyes.

 

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"Big Eyes" the story of artist Margaret Keane
by designs a year ago 16 Replies latest a year ago   social entertainment
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designs
designs a year ago

The Tim Burton film is ready for release.
www.thewrap.com/big-eyes-premiere-finds-audience-howling-at-christoph-waltz-and-amy-adams-dueling-artists/
 
Muddy Waters
Muddy Waters a year ago

Was she a JW..?
 
maninthemiddle
maninthemiddle a year ago

yes, she was later in life, after the events of this movie.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Keane
 
rebel8
rebel8 a year ago

It's being covered on CBS Morning News right now.
Interesting. They show an interview of her saying the reason she came forward publicly (and in the courts) about her being the real artist (not her husband, who had taken credit) is because jws never lie.
 
designs
designs a year ago

Opens Christmas Day.
 
designs
designs a year ago

Good interview.
Here is an earlier retrospective.



 
ToesUp
ToesUp a year ago

Seems like a nice lady. Too bad she got duped 2 times (once by her husband) and then by the JW's.
 
Terry
Terry a year ago

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/scandals/286849/1/HOW-A-JEHOVAHS-WITNESS-participated-in-one-of-the-great-art-FRAUDS-of-the-20th-century
 
TD
TD a year ago

See the July 8, 1975 Awake! "My Life As A Famous Artist"
 
ShirleyW
ShirleyW a year ago

I find it funny that my UberDub mother bought some of her pics when I was kid in the 60's and hung them up in my room, and she didn't even know at the time that she was a JW.
Her experience was in the one of the rags in the late 60's or early 70's

 
TD
TD a year ago

1975


 
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 a year ago

Those pictures are freaky...
 
BluesBrother
BluesBrother a year ago

It seems that her J W beliefs influence some of her painting these days - yours for $225 on her website ( limited prints, I believe, I am sure Terry could explain exactly what the format is )
I was told that she had sonated artwork to an Assembly Hall in the U S. Do we now know who to blame for those grotty prints that adorn the walls of every QB or refurbed K H these days??


A Little Child Shall Lead Them


Happy Kingdom


Love Makes A World Of Difference
 
Terry
Terry a year ago

In my link above there is considerable detail, but I'll repeat a bit of it here.
The layman who sees something which 'looks like' a painting will call it a painting and be none the wiser.
What usually fools people is the image laying on top of canvas.
Canvas is associated with painting.
However . . .
Any image can be transferred (bonded) to canvas from a print.
The offset lithograph is done by a machine. It differs radically from an original print hand-crafted by an artist in an atelier.
It is a glorified photo process.
1. The artist paints an original painting.
2. The painting is photographed.
3. The colors are electronically "separated" and printing on special paper.
4. The combined layers produce a simulacrum of the original image.
-----------------------
5. iF the lithograph image is then transferred to canvas it takes on the appearance of the original painting.
6. The addition of "brush strokes" with transparent gel which hardens atop the image adds verisimilitude.
7. The unwitting collector assumes he is buying an original painting, but it is dishonestly worded to say so.
 
kairos
kairos a year ago

I've attended the bookstudy/meetings for service in her home...
 
rebel8
rebel8 a year ago

bluesbrother, are those really in the assembly halls?
I totally respect and love visual arts...but omg...I am just lol. I didn't realize it was possible to make the wts paradise zoo stories even more tacky and unbelievable.
Sorry but omg. She's a talented artist, maybe her work is not to everyone's taste, but you gotta admit she has talent. But the paradise petting zoo pieces just freak me out.
 
Dagney
Dagney a year ago

Her paintings hung in the Honolulu Bethel, in the KH if I remember. I have photos of them but the are buried in albums. I don't even know if that Bethel home exists anymore.
 

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HOW A JEHOVAH'S WITNESS participated in one of the great art FRAUDS of the 20th century
by Terry a year ago 46 Replies latest a year ago   watchtower scandals
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Terry
Terry a year ago

http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2014/oct/26/art-fraud-margaret-walter-keane-tim-burton-biopic
______________________________
Excerpt from the above article
" T here’s a sweet, small suburban house in the vineyards of Napa, northern California. Inside, a family of devout Jehovah Witnesses bustles around, offering me a cheese plate. A Siamese cat weaves in and out of my legs. Everything is lovely. Sitting unobtrusively in the corner is 87-year-old Margaret Keane. “Would you like some macadamia nuts?” she asks. She hands me Jehovah Witness pamphlets too. “Jehovah looks after me every day,” she says. “I really feel it.”She is the last person you’d expect to be a participant in one of the great art frauds of the 20th century."
“He had me sitting in a corner,” she tells me, “and he was over there, talking, selling paintings, when somebody walked over to me and said: ‘Do you paint too?’ And I suddenly thought – just horrible shock – ‘Is he taking credit for my paintings?’”
He was. He had been telling his patrons a giant lie. Margaret was the painter of the big eyes – every one of them. Walter might well have seen sad children in postwar Berlin, but he hadn’t painted them, because he couldn’t paint to save his life."
_______________________
Margaret and Walter pose with a selection of paintings in 1965.


 
Barrold Bonds
Barrold Bonds a year ago

Man, when I saw the trailer for that movie, I remembered someone telling me she was a JW.

The movie looks pretty good btw.
 
TheOldHippie
TheOldHippie a year ago

G 1975 7/8:
My Life as a Famous Artist
YOU may have seen a painting of a wistful child with unusually large and sad-looking eyes. Quite likely, it was one I painted. Sad to say, I was as unhappy as the children I painted.
I grew up in the southern part of the United States in the region often referred to as the “Bible Belt.” Perhaps it was this environment, or my Methodist grandmother, that instilled in me a deep respect for the Bible, although I knew very little about it. I grew up believing in God, but with a lot of unanswered questions.
As a sickly child, often alone and very shy, I developed an early talent for drawing. An inquisitive nature led me to wonder about the purpose of life, why we are here, why there are pain, sorrow and death, and if God is good. Always “Why?”
These questions, I believe, were later reflected in the eyes of my paintings of children and, in part, account for their worldwide appeal. The eyes, always the focal point, were often described as “soulful.” They seemed to reflect the spiritual alienation of most people today—their longing for something beyond what this system offers.
My road to popularity in the art world was a rocky one. There were two wrecked marriages and much mental anguish along the way. Controversies surrounding my private life and the authorship of my paintings resulted in international wire stories, lawsuits, front-page pictures and even headlines. For many years I had allowed my second husband to take credit for my paintings. But one day, unable to continue the deception any longer, I left him and my home in California and moved to Hawaii. After a period of depression and very little painting, I began trying to rebuild my life and later married again.
One turning point came in 1970 when a newspaper reporter arranged a televised “paint-out” between me and my former husband, to be held in San Francisco’s Union Square to establish the authorship of the paintings. I was the only one to show up and accept the challenge. Life magazine covered this event in an article that corrected a previous erroneous story that attributed the paintings to my former husband.
My part in the deception had lasted for twelve years and is one that I will always regret. However, it taught me the value of being truthful and that neither fame, love, money nor anything else is worth a bad conscience.
I still had questions about life and God and they led me to search in strange and dangerous places for answers. I investigated the occult, astrology, palmistry, and even handwriting analysis, looking for answers. My love for art led me to investigate many ancient cultures and their philosophies, which were reflected in their art. I read volumes on Eastern philosophy, and even tried transcendental meditation.
My spiritual hunger led me to look into the various religious beliefs of people who came into my life. On both sides of my family and among my friends I came in contact with various Protestant religions besides that of the Methodists, including those of Christian Scientists, Mormons, Lutherans and Unitarians. When I married my present husband, a Catholic, I seriously investigated that religion. I still found no satisfactory answers—always there were contradictions—and always there was something missing.
With this exception (not having answers to life’s important questions), my life had finally started straightening out. I had achieved just about everything I ever wanted. Most of my time was being spent in doing what I loved to do best—painting children (mostly little girls) with the big eyes. I had a wonderful husband and a fine marriage, a lovely daughter and financial security, and I lived in my favorite spot on earth—Hawaii. But at times I wondered why I was not completely satisfied, why I smoked so much and occasionally drank too much and why I was so tense. I did not realize how self-centered my life had become in my pursuit of personal happiness.
The Unexpected Change
Jehovah’s witnesses came often, every couple of weeks, to my door, but I rarely took their literature or paid much attention to them. Little did I realize that in due time one knock on my door would drastically change my life. That particular morning two Oriental women, one Chinese and the other Japanese, appeared on my doorstep. Sometime prior to their coming, my daughter had shown me an article about the sabbath being Saturday, not Sunday, and about the importance of observing it. It had made such an impression on both of us that we started attending the Seventh-day Adventist Church. I had even stopped painting on Saturday, thinking it was a sin to do so. So when I asked one of these women at my door which day was the sabbath, I was surprised that she answered “Saturday.” So I asked, “Why don’t you observe it?”
Ironic, wasn’t it, that I, a Caucasian, raised in the “Bible Belt,” should be seeking information from two Orientals who were probably reared in a non-Christian environment?
She opened a well-worn Bible and read directly out of it scriptures that explained why Christians no longer are required to observe the sabbath or the various other features of the Mosaic law, why the sabbath law was given, and about the future Sabbath of 1,000 years.
Her knowledge of the Bible impressed me so deeply that I wanted to look further into the Bible for myself. I gladly accepted the book The Truth That Leads to Eternal Life, which she said would explain the basic doctrines of the Bible. The next week when the women returned, my daughter and I began studying the Bible regularly. It was one of the most important decisions of my life and led to dramatic changes in the lives of both of us.
In this study of the Bible my first and biggest hurdle was the Trinity. Since I believed that Jesus was God, part of a Trinity, having that belief suddenly challenged was like having a rug pulled out from under my feet. It was frightening. Because my belief could not hold up in the light of what I was reading in the Bible, I suddenly felt a deeper aloneness than I had ever experienced before. I did not know whom to pray to and was besieged with doubts, even about there being a God at all.
Holding Back
Gradually I was convinced from the Bible that the Almighty God is Jehovah, the Father (not the Son), and as I studied I began to rebuild my shattered faith, this time on the true foundation. But as my knowledge and faith began to grow, pressures began to mount. My husband threatened to leave me, and other close family members were extremely upset. As I began to see the requirements of being a true Christian, I looked for a way out because I did not think I could ever witness to strangers or go from door to door to talk to others about God.
My daughter, who was now studying in a nearby town, was progressing much faster. Her progress, in fact, became another obstacle to me. She believed so completely in what she was learning that she wanted to work toward becoming a missionary. Visions of my only child in a far-off country frightened me, and I decided that I must protect her from doing something so drastic. So I began to search for a flaw. I felt that if I could find something this organization was teaching that was not backed up by the Bible I could convince my daughter.
With my knack for details the search was thorough. I ended up acquiring over ten different translations of the Bible, three concordances and many other Bible dictionaries and reference books to supplement books from the library. I received a strange “help” from my husband, who often brought home books and booklets that were derogatory to the Witnesses. I pored over them, carefully weighing everything they said. But I never found the flaw.
Instead, the falsity of the Trinity doctrine, as well as the fact that the Witnesses know and make known the name of the Father, the true God, also their love for one another and their strict adherence to the Scriptures, convinced me that I had found the true religion. I could not help but be deeply impressed by the contrast between Jehovah’s witnesses and the other religions on the matter of finances.
In time, my daughter and I were baptized, together with about forty others, on August 5, 1972, in the beautiful blue Pacific Ocean—a day I will never forget. She has now moved back home so she can devote her full time to service as a Witness here in Hawaii. My husband is still with us and even marvels at the changes in both of us.
From Sad Eyes to Bright Eyes
Since my dedicating my life to Jehovah, there have been many changes in my life. One of the first was that I stopped smoking. I actually lost the desire and the need. This was a habit of twenty-two years, averaging a pack or more a day. I had tried desperately to break the habit because I knew it was harmful but had found it impossible. As my faith grew, the scripture at 2 Corinthians 7:1 proved to be the more powerful incentive. With the help of Jehovah through prayer and my believing his promise at Malachi 3:10, the habit was finally and completely broken. Amazingly, I had no withdrawal symptoms or any discomfort!
Other changes were deep psychological transformations in my personality. From a very shy, insecure, introverted and self-absorbed person who sought and needed long hours of solitude in which to paint and relax from my tensions, I became a much more gregarious, outgoing person. I now find myself spending many hours doing what I used to hate to do—talking to people—and loving every minute of it!
Another change has been that I spend only about a fourth of the time I formerly spent painting, and yet, amazingly, I accomplish almost the same amount of work. Too, sales and comments indicate that the paintings are getting even better. Painting used to be almost an obsession with me. I was driven to paint because it was my therapy, escape and relaxation—my life completely revolved around it. I still enjoy it immensely, but the addiction to it and dependency on it are gone. Since my growing in knowledge of Jehovah, the Source of all creativity, it is no wonder that the quality of my paintings has increased as the time of execution has decreased.
Now most of my former painting time is spent in God’s service, studying the Bible, teaching others and attending the five Bible study meetings at the Kingdom Hall each week. During the past two and a half years, eighteen people have started studying the Bible with me. Eight of these persons are now actively studying, one is ready to be baptized, and another has been baptized. From among their families and friends, thirteen more started studying with other Witnesses. It has been a great joy and privilege to have a part in helping others to come to know Jehovah.
It was not easy in the beginning to give up any of my cherished solitude, my own routine of life and a lot of my painting time, and put Jehovah’s will first, before anything else. But I was willing to try and, through prayer and relying on Jehovah’s help, I found that every step of the way was made easier and was rewarded. Proof of his approval and help almost overwhelmed me—not only in spiritual blessings but in many material ones as well.
As I look back on my life, my first oil painting, done when I was about eleven years old, now seems quite significant. It was two versions of the same little girl—the one in the background was sad, with tears in her eyes; the one in the foreground had bright smiling eyes. In the past, the symbolic large, sad eyes I painted mirrored the puzzling contradictions I saw in the world around me, and which raised in me so many questions. Now I have found in the Bible the reasons for the contradictions about life that once tormented me, as well as the answers to my questions.
After my gaining accurate knowledge of God and his purpose for mankind, it led me to the real security of having God’s approval and the inner peace and happiness that go with it. This is being reflected in my paintings to a degree that others even detect it. The sad, lost look of the large eyes is giving way now to a happier look. My husband even named one of my recent happy big-eyed children “The Eye Witness”!—Contributed.
 
BluesBrother
BluesBrother a year ago

The newspaper article makes it clear that she did not become a J W until after the years of fraud , committed by her ex husband with her co-operation, had taken place.
[Edit : the old Hippie has got a memory too... I just found this on the c/d rom but you beat me to it - well done ]
 
TheOldHippie
TheOldHippie a year ago

Exactly. There is no scandal. She was the VICTIM of a fraud, not a participator, and the fraud against her was committed earlier.
 
Giordano
Giordano a year ago

When my wife and I were first married (1963) we bought two rather cheap framed reproductions of Big Eyes to hang in our 'pioneer where the need is great' two room apartment (rent including electric and heat was $50 per month).
After we left the 'truth' we cashed in the single HS diploma we processed and studied art and eventually made a living creating photographs and in my wife's case paintings and sculpture. We were both collected by museums and participated in museum shows.
And no the Big Eyes paintings were not responsible for our career as they were abandoned as quickly as our pioneer service and membership in the cult.
What next? Did Thomas Kinkade not paint his stuff?
 
Terry
Terry a year ago

I moved to Redondo Beach, California in 1974. At the local Kingdom Hall the big gossip eventually centered around a
"sister Keane" who was a "world-famous" painter.
Two of the sisters claimed to know her.
When they compared stories . . . the facts did not match.
Rumors came and went over the next couple of years. Some thought she was a delusional, scheming,
publicity-seeking person of shady morals.
Others vociferously disagreed and took measures to shut down the nay-sayers.
I was in the Art Business at the time, working for Triangle Industries in Los Angeles.
The owner of Triangle Industries was a wonderful larger-than-life character who fancied himself a
"Hungarian Godfather" shady art dealer who never met a broken law he didn't like.
(He eventually burned down his business for insurance money!)
According to Zolly (it's what everybody called him) Margaret Keane had approached him to publish and distribute
litho-copies of her painting bonded to canvas with gel-brush strokes laid on top to give the FALSE IMPRESSION
they were genuine paintings. These were simply paper printed on with ink. She could sell them as "original" and do a thousand copies!
Zolly was all for the scam.
I saw hundreds of these things because my department (NOVA ART) was required to mount the lithos
on the canvas and add the brush strokes! This idea was new at the time. Today, photographers apply the same
process to photos as a "matte finish".
I left the company in 1976 and became the Director of RnR Graphics in El Segundo.
The reputation of Margaret Keane in the Art Biz was that of a dishonest broker and a fraud.
That's all I know and hardly any of it "first hand."
 
Terry
Terry a year ago

What next? Did Thomas Kinkade not paint his stuff?
Battle: The 'painter of light' Thomas Kinkade, one of America's most popular artist, died at the age of 54 after struggling with alcoholism, a family member said
________________________________
Unfortunately, I can clue you in on that asshole, Thomas Kinkade.
He was a horrible person. He cheated on his wife. Left her and their four daughters to move in with his mistress.
Made his mistress sign a non-disclosure agreement (to not reveal he was a drunk and a cheat) and he drank himself to death. He was sued by a great many people who started out believing in
him and his art and ended up losing their life savings because of him--including his brother.
He briefly worked at Disney Studios and was fired for urinating on the famous hedge face of Mickey Mouse!
He was a phony born-again Christian who traded on his "Christianity"while cheating his franchise dealers right and left.
I know this because I spoke at length to his brother, Patrick, who opened a Thomas Kinkaide art gallery where I live now, in
Fort Worth, Texas. I also worked with and for one of the nicest people I've ever known who went bankrupt due to Kinkaide.
http://fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2006/092006/09212006/220020
__________________________
The man was a marvel of bullshit!
He sold his collectors a . . . wait for it . . . wait for it . . . DNA DETECTION KIT.
Ask me why.
(Tell us why, Terry!)
Because, Kinkaide asserted (falsely) so many counterfeit paintings of his were circulating (not a single one ever was produced) he prayed
to God about how to stop it and . . . (wait for it) God told him to PUT A DROP OF HIS OWN BLOOD on every canvas!
If a collector wanted to be sure their own painting was "genuine" the $200 DNA testing kit would provide authentication!!
Yeah, right.
_____________________
He passed off cheap lithographs with gel coating (just a Margaret Keane had done in the 70's) to unsophisticated buyers as
original art canvases.
At first, he signed and #'d his prints and canvases until he got too bored AND REFUSED to do it any longer.
This is when he started his DNA blood detection scam.
_________________
Oh, I could go on and on . . .
But, I won't unless you ask for more.
_________________
Oh hell, JUST ONE MORE!
I saw him on TV on the HOME SHOPPING NETWORK.
He had a big introduction by the hostess and when the camera panned over to him, he started applauding--standing up and
saying, "Let's hear a big round of applause for JESUS CHRIST!"
Huh?
He was selling crappy little (9x12 "art canvas" versions (lithos with gel- coat brush strokes glued on canvas) as "limited editions" while, simultaneously
selling those same "limited" images as lunch boxes, T-shirts, thermos bottles, air fresheners, night lights, teddy bears, toys, pillows andLa-Z-Boyloungers, knick-knacks etc. In a brazen effort to raise money to pay off his lawsuit debts!
His girlfriend produced a hand-written paper in Kinkaide's writing which said:
"I, Thomas Kinkade, being of sound mind and body do hereby bequeath to Amy Pinto Walsh $10,000,000 in cash from my corporate policy and I give her the house at 16342 Ridgecrest Avenue for her security."
His wife and 4 daughters immediately challenged this in court.
Apparently, Valium and alcohol did the fellow in. His legacy immediately needed protecting so the court case became shrouded in
non-disclosure agreements. The "Christian painter-of-light" was only a valuable name brand if the name was kept free of shame and scandal.
Publicity announcements to remaining Kinkaide dealers assured them the legacy would continue . . .
 
steve2
steve2 a year ago

Wow! Amy Adams plays Margaret in the Burton film. I wonder how much the JW influence will surface - given that her most famous works predate her conversion.
 
Terry
Terry a year ago

It was either Mickey Mouse or Winnie the Pooh, Kinkaide peed on. I can't remember exactly.
So, consider this a provisional "adjustment" or NEW LIGHT addendum to the above.

___________________________
(Edited to add: I did a Google Search and found this:
http://articles.latimes.com/2006/mar/05/business/fi-kinkade5
"It's not just Kinkade's business practices that have been called into question. Former gallery owners, ex-employees and others say his personal behavior also belies the wholesome image on which he's built his empire.
In sworn testimony and interviews, they recount incidents in which an allegedly drunken Kinkade heckled illusionists Siegfried & Roy in Las Vegas, cursed a former employee's wife who came to his aid when he fell off a barstool, and palmed a startled woman's breasts at a signing party in South Bend, Ind.
And then there is Kinkade's proclivity for "ritual territory marking," as he called it, which allegedly manifested itself in the late 1990s outside the Disneyland Hotel in Anaheim.
"This one's for you, Walt," the artist quipped late one night as he urinated on a Winnie the Pooh figure, said Terry Sheppard, a former vice president for Kinkade's company, in an interview."
_______________________________________


 
new hope and happiness
new hope and happiness a year ago

The only rule in art is " That it works"....sometimes you have to emblish art, just a little to make " it work"
 
Terry
Terry a year ago

Wow, I found the Mother Lode here on Kinkaide:

Thomas Kinkade Art Scandal Continues to Unfold
Wednesday, May 23, 2012 10:39  0
(Before It's News)


I recently saw this on the Huffpost. I have been active in the Los Gatos Patch discussing why the Kinkade estate would need a restraining order to protect the "Thomas Kinkade Studios' proprietary painting techniques". I smelled a skunk at the time and have always felt that Kinkade's work had that painting factory look to them.
HuffPost Arts
Our Favorite Reader Reactions To Thomas Kinkade's Life And Work
Posted: 05/11/2012 1:35 pm Updated: 05/11/2012 1:35 pm
Edward Goodwin: My mother-in-law was on a business trip to South Korea about 15 years ago, she was invited to join a group of Americans staying in the same hotel to visit the "Thomas Kinkade factory." That's what it is called. She knew who he was, of course. She went along thinking that it was a building he had been commissioned to decorate, or something of that nature. It wasn't. It is the factory that produces Thomas Kinkade art. Mr Kinkade would create a template very much like a paint-by numbers set. Each color or mixture of colors would have an alpha-numeric code to prevent translation mix-ups. These codes would be printed on the template. The template would be printed on specially treated canvas and would roll down an assembly line. Young ladies, hired for their ability to paint lightly, yet rapidly, would sit along the conveyor belt. One woman did only clouds, another, only bushes, another, only tree trunks, another, brightly lit windows, and so on until the finished painting reached the end of the conveyor belt. Mr Kinkade never met the young women who actually painted his paintings. They were paid $45.00 dollars a day for a 14 hour day for paintings that Mr Kinkade would sell for ten grand. Why were they worth that much? Because Mr Kinkade "painted" his signature on to them when they arrived in America. Nice work…if you can get it.
So Kinkade was selling painting done by others in an assembly line for over 15 years and as his own originals for over $10,000 each. I foresee a huge lawsuit against the Kinkade estate for misrepresentation of product and hopefully criminal charges against corporate members who knew what was going on.
It would appear that the Thomas Kincade factory is still painting after he is gone. You can buy original Kinkade paintings, without the $10,000 signature, below for as little as $5.
http://artforestpainting.en.alibaba.com/search/product?IndexArea=product_en&SearchText=thomas%20kinkade%20oil%20painting
I cannot believe that the Kinkade Company would have allowed this to go on unless they were in fact using these very paintings to defraud customers and charge upwards of $10k for these copies. Otherwise they would have screamed bloody murder to protect "Thomas Kinkade Studios' proprietary painting techniques". Their silence in this matter says it all, GUILTY!!

More and more evidence is mounting to support the claims that Kinkade and his companies sold mass produced oil paintings made in South Korea and/or China and sold them as Kindake originals. This is criminal activity and all parties involved could face substantial prison time if brought to trial. It is clearly time for the California State Attorney General's Office to look into this massive art fraud perpetrated by Windermere Holdings LLC and Pacific Metro LLC, also known as The Thomas Kinkade Company.
_____________________________
a PHOTO of Kinkaide's alleged "Last Will"


 
sir82
sir82 a year ago

Unless you are an professional expert with decades of experience, NEVER buy "art" as an investment.
Buy what you like, for what you can afford. End. Of. Story.
 
new hope and happiness
new hope and happiness a year ago

The four Davids, by Michael Cartellone ( drummer in my favourite band LYNYRD SKYNYRD)
Anyway his four davids are " origional" and real art. Check it out on you tube.
 
Terry
Terry a year ago

I was in Art over 40 years. From 1974 to 1992 I was in the Art BUSINESS.
The stories I could tell would make a book. (One few would read :smile:
I can only give my experience and opinion based on hobnobbing with the lah-dee-dahs in that world.
The art world is divided by buyers who know art intimately and knowledgably separated by an enormous gulf on the
other end by people who "Don't know anything about art, but who know what they like."
Most of the fraud is perpetrated on people who gleefully "don't know anything about art."
But--not entirely!
I met more frauds, crooks, flim-flam artists than genuine artists.
Many of those were ACTUAL artists!
The problem comes down to how easy it is for certain people to dupe others.
There is considerable money to be made (or ONCE WAS) from the "know-nothings"who are easy marks.
I knew of a reputable dealer who bought 250 pieces of blank, hand-made, acid-free etching paper from Salvador Dali's personal
rep with only Dali's SIGNATURE on them.
Why?
The dealer could get a talented atelier to run off lithos of Dali's earlier paintings . . . AS lithos and sell them as limited editions signed
by the Master himself!
Incidentally, the master artists use actual flat-stone litho and not printing press style dot-matrix lithographs.
____________________
I once answered an ad for this 'reputable dealer' who promised me a 15% commission if I could sell the "original" Dali lithos.
I asked if I could take a sample of the work with me for a few days before I accepted the job.
The dealer agreed.
I showed them to an actor (and Dali expert) Alan Rich.


Rich stared at the signatures for about ten seconds without blinking.
He immediately spat out the words, "Pathetic forgery!"
_______________________
As it turned out, Dali's art agent was the fraud having faked the signature after Dali (his client) had
gone entirely senile and reneged on paying money owed. This was his form of self-justice!
Ahhh the stories I could tell!
_________________________
I was working in an Art Gallery (Billy Hork Galleries) in Beverly Hills for awhile.
Celebrities came in often.
I sold a set of paintings (triptych) to Donald Sutherland who returned them a week later saying,
"The voices told me they aren't right." Do I know if he was shitin' me? No.
Jon Voigt and I had a long chat the day after he was a presenter on the Academy Awards.
Voigt is the same height as I am and, at the time, was pretty darned skinny in person. He was a very
affable and natural person without any pretenses.
I sold Ron Howard a miniature of a scrawny bird painted by an Amish painter. He and his wife were together.
I said something which made him laugh. His wife giggled.
John Travolta and Marilu Henner came in together one evening. Travolta was eating ice cream. He was followed by about
fifty people pretending they were NOT following him!
Yes--I kid you not. These were people acting too-cool-to-be-excited about movie stars, but who WERE excited enough
to be following them everywhere they went!
I asked Travolta if he and Marilu wanted to go out the back way.
He grinned and told me, "Nah--we're having fun with it."

for my staircase."
 
new hope and happiness
new hope and happiness a year ago

Terry:- "art is the spider on the wall"
If said by me, its not art.
But as Piccasso said it, its art.
Terry check out Michael Cartellone ( the skynyrd drummer) " 4 Davids"on you tube. Their is a difference betwwen fraud and origional art.
 
tinker
tinker a year ago

I had a set of JW Greeting Cards with Margeret Keene images and scriptures inside re Get Well, Have a Nice Day, ect. All the Big Eyed children playing in the New Order. Big Eyed sea creatures and lions, tigers and bears, all Big Eyes. I loved them so much I never sent them to anybody thinking one day I would frame them....hum, wonder where I put those?
 
Terry
Terry a year ago

When you lead a person who wants to buy original art into buying mass produced art, you are on the threshold of fraud
unless you explain carefully exactly what it is they will own.
Where most people got ripped off by art was this way.
1. Being told the art "would appreciate" and become worth "more" the longer the buyer held on to it. This is not a claim
which any art dealer can make factually. This is easily provable. I had many a buyer ask me if we (the Art Gallery itself)
would buy back the art in the future. I explained why the answer was "no." I carefully described the phenomena this way:
"If anybody knew for certain this art would go up in value--why in the world would we let go of it in the first place?
We are in the RETAIL art business. The gamble is yours. We buy low and sell high. We don't buy after art becomes high."
2. Failure to explain definitively what ORIGINAL actually means.
A multiple image etching or litho pulled one at a time in an atelier is virtually hand-made duplicates of the image itself (contained in the
etching plate by scratches done by the artist--OR--on the litho stone drawn by crayon by the artist.) Each and every MULTIPLE is an original because---
the images don't BECOME ART until they transfer to paper, are examined and proofed by the artist and signed/numbered as an edition.
3. Failure to explain what LIMITED EDITION will mean for a PARTICULAR studio and a PARTICULAR run of art image.
Example: a Ltd Ed of 250 etchings which is truly LIMITED will result in that etching plate being SCRATCHED and DEFACED at the end of the edition so
no FURTHER images can be pulled. However . . . the artist may well ALSO photograph the etching and reproduce it as a photo-litho edition as well.
4. Just because a painting is painted does not gurantee ANY value whatsover. Value is imputed by the market. It can be ASSIGNED a virtual VALUE, but
that is merely an ASKING price. When art is INSURED, the replacement value is what is considered. This can be manipulated by an out-sized RETAIL price. The actual "value" is the materials (wood frame, canvas, stretcher bar, nails, liner, etc.)
5. Just because an artist dies it does NOT mean the VALUE of any purchased artwork by that artist GOES UP AUTOMATICALLY in VALUE.
_______________________________
When I worked at TRIANGLE INDUSTRIES Art company, we had artists who designed "original paintings."
The names of the artists were fabricated along with extensive and colorfully dramatic biographies. The company certified
with concocted "certificates of authenticity" purporting to guarentee the reality of the art, the artist and the limit. ALL OF IT WAS BOGUS!
When Norman Rockwell died--the market for his artwork CRASHED and BURNED. Why? All the collectors wanted to SELL! There were
no buyers---only sellers!
 
Terry
Terry a year ago

Terry check out Michael Cartellone ( the skynyrd drummer) " 4 Davids"on you tube. There is a difference betwwen fraud and origional art.
__________________________________
Carellone has made it crystal clear what his intention was/is and that leaves nobody in doubt who painted what or why.
Here is an interesting philosophical question I would pose.
"What if he created four songs which duplicated (as closely as the painting) the work and style of 4 actual songwriters?"
Would the world of music be as generous and forgiving?
Would copying Bob Dylan, David Bowie, Johnny Cash, and Billy Joel go down as 'original' and artistic? Or--would it simply
be seen as a gimmick and a cover-version?
_______________________
Did you know that in California, each time you sell an original piece of Art, a cut (percentage) of the sale price must go to the
ARTIST (original)? The legal theory is regarded as the same as an originator of a musical creation. THE ARTIST WHO ORIGINATES
is embodied within the INTRINSIC value itself.
 
Terry
Terry a year ago








 

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HOW A JEHOVAH'S WITNESS participated in one of the great art FRAUDS of the 20th century
by Terry a year ago 46 Replies latest a year ago   watchtower scandals
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CaptainSchmideo
CaptainSchmideo a year ago

Hey, Terry, question for you!
Let's talk about those print run numbers: 1/250, 2/250, 250/250...

Does having 1/250 make it "worth more" than 2/250? Just curious.
I bought a print of The Flying Spaghetti Monster as drawn by a regional artist (nice guy!), it was one he had just completed for this season's festival. So, let's say he becomes a hot commodity (not bloody likely), will my copy 1 of 250 copy be worth more as a print on Antiques Roadshow in the year 2064?
Love your posts, BTW.
 
new hope and happiness
new hope and happiness a year ago

Terry to answer your question, we are Talking Lynyrd Skynyrd., Ronnie Vancant ( who was Skynyrd) plane crash, replaced by his brother.
Being asked to join Skynyrd, is the most dangerouse job in the world.
But the way i see it is Skynyrd are like my favourite football team, the line up changes but i continue to support....( even shared beer with a former guitarist)
 
JWdaughter
JWdaughter a year ago

I think the Keane pictures are charming enough-in moderation. Not as the exclusive genre in a home (and I know people who decorate that way. My aunt has a weird combo of Kinkaid and Eagle/military theme in her house. Disturbing!)
I was told about the Kinkaid pictures many many years ago-he didnt sell originals and I don't know that he ever claimed to. . . I went to a gallery around his death(there was one in my small hometown and I just wandered in) and they discussed the painting system with me. Even my aunt (who is generally kind of clueless about that kind of thing) knew (it was she who clued me in to ask the questions at the gallery). I like his stuff too-but it is way overpriced esp considering that no one gets anything original and now it is really overdone and cliched anyway. Too much popularity takes from the beauty in some sort of way.
I just get what I like, and if I pay too much, well at least I like it. I have no Keanes or Kinkaids. I buy the little artists showing at local fairs and galleries. I bought one thing on a cruise ship that while probably overpriced or not up to others standards, is absolutely something that makes me happy to see. So, I have a Dorit Levi reproduction of some kind. I love the subject, the colors and the feelings that it engenders in my soul. so there! My kids will probably sell it for $5 at my estate sale, but I have already got the value of it. (but I hope my daughter keeps it)
 
talesin
talesin a year ago

new hope, I too am a HUGE fan. They vie in my heart with BOA and Little Feat for the best Southern fried rock band EVER! :grinning: I am actually old enough that I *had* the original Street Survivors album back in the day, but my ex got the collection in the amicable divorce. It was rightfully his.
As for the "Four Davids", and whether homages are accepted in music, well, hmmmm .....


John Lennon Rock'n'Roll is an homage.
Tower of Song, homage to Leonard Cohen by various artists including Billy Joel, Don Henley, The Cheiftains and other great artists/bands.
Oh yeah, and the Chieftains do an homage to Johnny Cash (he sings in their version of the Long Black Veil **ahem**)



Those are just the cassettes I own, but I'm also thinking of "Roll Over Beethoven" an homage to Beethoven that actually uses the music of his famous symphony.
Music has been my life's theme! :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:
So, I've watched the youtube video vid (and how cool is THAT? Being a Lynyrd Skynyrd fan all my life, despite their tiff with the god Neil Young, and I did not know this).

The artist is perfectly honest in that is an homage (a tetraptych, with each piece done in the style of a famous painter ). It sure is accepted in the music world, as long as it's an homage, and not a rip-off of another arists's work while calling it your own (ie plagiarism or copyright infringement, or whatever the legal term is.
Manyartists are multi-talented, and able to cross over to other right-brain fields of endeavour with the greatest of ease.
tal
 
Balaamsass2
Balaamsass2 a year ago

 Great thread Terry. Sorry, I re-posted the Story at lunch (google alert) not seeing this. Personally, I never liked the Big eyed paintings, but Mom bought them and worshipped at Margarets feet. ugh.

 
Terry
Terry a year ago

Hey, Terry, question for you!
Let's talk about those print run numbers: 1/250, 2/250, 250/250...

Does having 1/250 make it "worth more" than 2/250? Just curious.
_____________________________________________
In the mind of collectors (some collectors) it does. It could in some instances have instantiation in reality.
I'll give you an example.
Etchings at one time were made using non-durable (soft metal) copper plates.
As the plates were inked, wiped, pressed on to paper over and over, the lines tended to to shallow out and the perceptible printed line became
thinner and thinner. In such an instance, the BEST LOOKING prints would be those FIRST pressed.
Ahhhhhh, but there is a problem!
Even in that easy instance there is a fly in the ointment.
Studios don't keep CAREFUL track of what is printed first because the prints are hung up to dry, stacked, unstacked again and again
for examination, touch ups, erasing lines, numbering, signing. Pass after pass, stack and unstack shuffles the ORDER of which print was which.
As a consequence, the print which is numbered 1/250 might conceivably be the 250th one printed!
___________________________________________
Perception is reality, however.
If the majority of a collector market BELIEVES the early numbers are best--then, by golly it is the MARKET which will pay more for it.
So there!
 
Terry
Terry a year ago

I see a big cross-over between RELIGION and ART as to the "mind" of the believer/collector/afficianado.
On one level, Vincent van Gogh only sold one painting in his life and it was to his brother, Theo. He was
a commercial flop. (He was also a religious fanatic, but that's irrelevent here.)
His art did not communicate in the time in which he lived. However . . . his personal story is so tragic and so
romantic--it pumps an emotional fire into the imagination of those who view his work "knowingly."
The film with Kirk Douglas and Anthony Quinn was quite extraordinary and did a lot to embolden the Van Gogh charisma
in international art sales.
STARRY STARRY NIGHT (VINCENT) went a long way toward building a popular mindset of romantic tragedy about the man himself.



_______________________
WHAT THE BUYER FEELS has much to do with inflating/deflating the so-called "value" of art.
_______________________
Here is a side bar:
Did you know that the phrase, FINE ART, really means a work which is "finished" and complete in itself, of itself and for its own sake?
It is not intended to DECORATE something functionally. It serves no utility. Its value is inborn or intrinsic.
_________________
This painting was painted by Claude Monet in 1883.
A Japanese insurance company won it at auction for $38 million.
Do you know why the Japanese company bid that much?
Their company was founded in 1883.
Fact: the company was not able to finish paying off the bid and it went into default!
monet japanese bridge
However . . .
The news story caused the price of ALL oil paintings to GO UP at subsequent auctions!
The sense of ART as possessing VALUE based on a defaulted bid is crazy isn't it?
That's how it works in the minds of people who are swayed by PUBLICITY and MONEY.
 
Terry
Terry a year ago

SOLD AT AUCTION FOR $84.2 MILLION DOLLARS
Barnett Newman,Black Fire I, 1961

http://nypost.com/2013/11/13/the-10-most-expensive-art-works-ever-sold-so-far/

One New York dealer sounded a more pessimistic note.
 "The speculators have finally succeeded in commodifying art," Frances Beatty, of Richard Feigen & Co., told A.i.A.  after the sale, "which is a triumph for them and a disaster for the artists and for the culture, because it has made the speculators the leaders rather than the artists."
 The postwar and contemporary art sales continue tonight at Sotheby's New York, which is estimated to ring up as much as $450 million, and Phillips New York Thursday, estimated to tally up to $185 million.
_________________________________________
The ROYAL FAMILY of Qatar bought THE SCREAM for $119.9 MILLION DOLLARS
Scream

Here is the story which goes with the creation of this piece of artwork.
The scene of The Scream was based on a real, actual place located on the hill of Ekeberg, Norway, on a path with a safety railing. The faint city and landscape represent the view of Oslo and the Oslo Fjord. At the bottom of the Ekeberg hill was the madhouse where Edvard Munch’s sister was kept, and nearby was also a slaughterhouse. Some accounts describe that in those times you could actually hear the cries of animals being killed, as well as the cries of the mentally disturbed patients in the distance. In this setting, Edvard Munch was likely inspired by screams that he actually heard in this area, combined with his personal inner turmoil. Edvard Munch wrote in his diary that his inspiration for The Scream came from a memory of when he was walking at sunset with two friends, when he began to feel deeply tired. He stopped to rest, leaning against the railing. He felt anxious and experienced a scream that seemed to pass through all of nature. The rest is left up to an endless range of interpretations, all expressed from this one, provocative image.
 
LisaRose
LisaRose a year ago

I heard a lot of that about Kincade, as he lived in the Bay area. I was never a big fan of his art, while technically there were some nice aspects to it, the subjects seemed overly trite and formula. I heard that many dealers got a bum deal, he ruined it for them by mass producing so many things that it cheapened the value of his so called "limited editions. My brother in law worked on the packaging materials for him, he couldn't stand his art. It's been a running joke for several years that we are getting a Kinkade for Christmas.
It just shows that people you think have a great life often are battling personal demons, money doesn't fix everything. Elizabeth Pena was a successful actress with many movie and television roles, she drank herself to death and died this week at 56.
My husband has an art tie with "the scream". He wears it on days that he has a lot of meetings, lol.
 
Terry
Terry a year ago

I worked with a wonderful gallery owner, a Native American, named Rising Fawn. She was approached by reps
from Thomas Kinkaide's corporation after she made inquiries about becoming an "official" Kinkaide dealer."
You see, the Kinkaide group wouldn't let just anybody sell Thom's artwork. Why? Because it was sort of, well, holy.
At least that's what the rep seemed to think.
Anyway . . .
Rising Fawn had to pass inspection and have her business scrutinized first.
She had to agree to sell at a certain dollar level each month. She was not allowed to frame any of Kinkaid's canvases herself.
She was required to sell ONLY official Kinkaide frames selected by THE MAN himself.
(In an art gallery, about 60% or more of profit comes from custom framing, you see.)
She was required to sell for THE EXACT PRICE selected by the Kinkaide corporation. She was not allowed to discount.
Every buyer of a Kinkaide canvas was to fill out a special form which was to be mailed in to the Kinkaide corporation. (They would use it
to steal the client out from under!)
Blah blah blah and so on and so forth.
THE DEAL WAS DONE.
Why?
The company represented itself as benevolent, gracious, godly, family-oriented and offered the prospect of high-sales for small gallery owners.
Every six months a rep would appear and inspect the gallery and scrutinize the sales receipts like an Inspector General.
Kinkaide's work sold very well because the gallery was in a shopping Mall and foot traffic was high.
_________________________________
Fast forward . . . (tick tock . . . tick tock)
_______________________________
When Rising Fawn's Kinkaide sales were at an all time high, guess what happened?
Quite suddenly, an official Thomas Kinkaide art gallery miraculously appeared within 20 feet of Rising Fawn's gallery!
IN DIRECT COMPETITION:
Kinkaide's art was sold AT A DISCOUNT beating Rising Fawn's prices!
When she complained to corporate headquarters, the rep REMINDED HER she could be sued if she was caught DISCOUNTING.
In other words--Thomas Kinkaide cut his franchise contract partners off at the knees.
He did it to his own brother and plenty of others.
Rising Fawn went bankrupt within 5 months because all her money had been tied up with inventory (Kinkaide's higher priced canvases)
which she couldn't get rid of at a price higher than what it was being sold 20 feet away!
 
Finkelstein
Finkelstein a year ago

Concerning this thread topic, in all fairness to Margret Keane, it was her husband that was mostly involved in this faud of himself in marketing his
then wifes paintings. The art business has been known to have corruption embed in the business itself mostly out of greed of money from unscrupulous
wheelers and dealers. Her personal experience of being so close to that corruption might have pushed her to the religion of the JWS.
As another poster noted she didn't become a JWS until after she left her corrupt delusional husband.
Unfortunately she immersed herself blindly into another form of corruption, the Watchtower Corporation, the corruption of religious charlatanism..





 
new hope and happiness
new hope and happiness a year ago

Terry:
Van Gogh painted on canvass, with an abundance of oil paints. (that takes money, ask any artist today)
He was appreciated in his time.
I am friends with an artist. He is Russian, and he is listed in a book of the 100 thousand most important people that ever lived.( even i dont know his name he is Van De Mia to me)
He lives in a humble flat in Linkoping.
i have another freind her name is " pablo pobloski" or something? i call her "pab". She lives in a flat and teaches art. I am not sure how much money she has. But her paintings sell for a lot.
My point is she lives in a little flat, and has her studio.
Dont confuse easy money and art.
 
new hope and happiness
new hope and happiness a year ago

Terry let me have my sream.
Dont confuse art with business.
For every writer (and you are a writer) some sell millions and some support themselfs working in shops.
So what?
Art is a wonderful thing.
If business can create its artists,thats big business...long live art.
 
new hope and happiness
new hope and happiness a year ago

Terry when i moved to Sweden i opened a little art gallery. I sold my paintings and people hang them on their wall.
Wonderful?
Rent of the shop, tax,it wasn't so great.
But it was a wonderful thought those paintings were sold. ( i took photos of each picture i sold)
It's a big world and the world of commercialisam is small in comparrison.
 
new hope and happiness
new hope and happiness a year ago

"The spectators the leaders rather than the artists" well said Terry.
When the Tate Modern" opened in London, they had a great exhibition, it was a room that looked like it was still not finnished, and the work men were still working on that room"
I was their that day and loved the way eveyone passed that room, and missed the art, yet the funny thing was those same people loved Deshamps Urina" ( which is a object men go to pee in)
Now for me, that was Art.
But then Art shouldn't be about taking the " piss" out of people. Thats commercial " Art". Long live the " Tate Modern"
 
Terry
Terry a year ago

When we start a sentence with "Art is . . . " we are in OPINIONLAND.
Van Gogh was NOT famous in his own time. He was known in his own social circle, and admired by his peers, but his work
brought him nothing to live on. He was a man tormented by his own mind.
His biggest supporter was his brother, Theo, who died shortly after him.
Just think of the irony! Brother Theo was an Art Dealer, but he could not get anybody to buy Vincent Van Gogh's paintings!
If it weren't for Vincent's sister-in-law, Johanna, neither you nor I would have ever heard of him or his work.
Johanna had a small baby to support as a widow.
This woman was forced by circumstance to turn things around. She endlessly promoted special showings, and used her family's social
contacts to network and promote Vincent Van Gogh's paintings and letters.
Johanna became a remarkable entrepreneur. This amazing woman gave to the world the story and the legend of Van Gogh.
________________
Without an audience; without appreciators, without collectors, ART IS NOTHING. It is simply self-expression which lives or dies like
anything else. For every Mozart there are ten thousand other genius composers nobody heard.
For every Van Gogh there are a hundred thousand others who lived and died in obscurity.
_________________
To appreciate great writing you must--absolutely must--read great works.
To appreciate music too, you must immerse yourself in listening to the classics.
To appreciate great art you have to spend a thousand hours exposing your mind to all the known works, and
become conversant with where in the stream of time they emerged and what preceded and followed them.
Otherwise, you cheat yourself, and your personal taste is based on narrow whim.
___________________
BEING FAMOUS is a separate talent.
BEING WEALTHY is a separate venue.
Above all, FINDING YOUR AUDIENCE is everything.

All the above is merely my opinion, your mileage may vary.

 
new hope and happiness
new hope and happiness a year ago

Terry You say " Van Gogh" art bought him nothing to live on.
Those huge canvases and the oil paint Van Gogh used suggeast to me he could afford a glass of wine and a bed to sleep.
Jesus Terry this guy was cross pollinating ideas with some of the greatest artists of our time.
But stop the illusion they lived in poverty.
 
new hope and happiness
new hope and happiness a year ago

Terry let me clarify.
A real artist is happy living largely on little....if you can create art, it's easier too see the superficiality of happiness being " winning the lottery"
 
Band on the Run
Band on the Run a year ago

Terry,
I would not term those large eyes fine art. Commercial art, maybe. Bad art, yes. They were certainly popular.
 
new hope and happiness
new hope and happiness a year ago

Terry you say " finding audience is everything."
i would day " having your audience find you is everything"
Maybe we are playing with words.
Talking Heads song " Artists Only" defined ART in words and music to me.
 

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http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2014/oct/26/art-fraud-margaret-walter-keane-tim-burton-biopic.
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"theres a sweet, small suburban house in the vineyards of napa, northern california.



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HOW A JEHOVAH'S WITNESS participated in one of the great art FRAUDS of the 20th century
by Terry a year ago 46 Replies latest a year ago   watchtower scandals
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Band on the Run
Band on the Run a year ago

I attend art auctions at Sotheby's sometimes. Van Gogh was not famous. His brother Theo was such a wonderful brother! Theo ploddingy sold Van Gogh's paintings but Van Gogh was not hot. A recent documentary suggested that Van Gogh may actually have been murdered or killed accidentally by the teenage sons of the owner of the property where he was recuperating from a breakdown. The official version is that Van Gogh committed suicide. The teenage sons shot up several Van Gogh paintings that would be worth untold millions in today's market.
Every generation re-evaluates its art market. Tastes change. Warhol is very hot now. Art is so subjective. The overwhelming majority of artists just scrape by with their art.
What is the current market value of a Kincaid print?
 
Terry
Terry a year ago

In my own opinion, the claims of murder were a publicity ploy to garner worldwide attention for the release
of yet another book.
Note:

"Two research experts from the museum were set on the trail of exploring the claims, however, and have no published their findings that the shocking theory of manslaughter, or even murder, simply does not add up.
In an article in the Burlington Magazine, Louis van Tilborgh and Teio Meendendorp said the train of events suggesting suicide “is eminently defensible, both psychologically and historically”.
They pointed to the nature of the bullet wound, relations with his brother Theo, as well as a letter found in his pocket – which the biography failed to cover – as helping prove his suicide. They also added that it was plausible Van Gogh wanted to commit suicide, which the biographers dispute.
They wrote: “Seen from the perspective that is neglected in this biography, namely Van Gogh’s own view of his life, suicide is so much more plausible than the chance squabble with fatal consequences.”
Van Gogh died in 1890 in Auvers-sur-Oise where he was painting the wheat fields. He sustained a gunshot injury to his abdomen while out in those fields before dying in an inn two days later. On his death bed he revealed he had shot himself."
_______________
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/art/news/did-vincent-van-gogh-commit-suicide-or-was-dutch-painter-killed-by-an-acquaintance-8754984.html
 
Terry
Terry a year ago

Pointedly:
Sturgeon's Law :
"Ninety percent of everything is crud" or "Ninety percent of everything is crap".
___________________
Thinking of anything having to do with ART, MUSIC, LITERATURE in terms of absolutes is self-defeating.
Public opinion is a snapshot in time. It is a freeze frame of tastes and sentiment.
Looking at the Arts through the perspective of TIME is more reliable, however.
_________________
If we think of the sampling rate of any popularity poll we find the LARGEST SAMPLING is the more reliable.
That is why the "test of time" is productively less arbitrary: more opinions over a wider sampling are reflected in the result.
__________________
Art Movements have been strongly connected with political movements, intellectual outbreaks, revolutionary philosophies, religious zealotry, etc.
Each of those movements hold a mirror up to a time and place in the ongoing flow of history.
"You can never step into the same river twice."
History tells you what was and not what IS.
GREAT ART is rare, rarer, and rarest. It comes in fits and starts. It is feast and famine. The continuum is not continuous so much as it is
fickle, impromptu, and random.
__________________________
Two ways people tend to state preferences:
1. I LIKE IT BECAUSE IT IS "GOOD."
2. IT IS "GOOD" BECAUSE I LIKE IT.
_____________________
Knowing the difference comes with wisdom which itself comes from experience, exposure, and application of effort.
All the above is my opinion and your mileage may vary.
 
new hope and happiness
new hope and happiness a year ago

Terry:- the great comedians. ( an aged laurel & Hardy, seemed pathetic not funny. Same with my hero ( Buster Keaton)
But anyway what one generation finds funny, another pathetic, or rasist.
Who was the lovely Lady, Lincoln said started the civil war? ( it was her book " uncle Toms cabin" art?
Piccasso understood this thread. He said " ART IS THE SPIDER ON THE WALL"
 
Terry
Terry a year ago

One wonders what the spider thought?
The web, by the spider, is not designed. The architecture is mysteriously innate.
Like most "art" it is a trap for its admirers.
 
Finkelstein
Finkelstein a year ago

Isn't all art an illusionary fraud appealing to human emotions ?
 
Pistoff
Pistoff a year ago

I like this description:
Art is a lie that tells the truth.

I am drawn to art for how I feel when I look at it, I usually don't have any top of the mind reasons for it.
 

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"theres a sweet, small suburban house in the vineyards of napa, northern california.



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'Big Eyes' Movie is the story of art couple Margaret (an XJW) and Walter Keane
by AndersonsInfo 2 years ago 17 Replies latest a year ago   jw friends
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AndersonsInfo
AndersonsInfo 2 years ago

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/04/tim-burton-big-eyes-new-movie-margaret-walter-keane-amy-adams-christoph-waltz_n_3013705.html
Tim Burton 'Big Eyes' Movie Tells The Story Of Art Couple Margaret and Walter Keane
Tim Burton, a filmmaker known for his own brand of ghoulish cartoon characters, is taking on the world of wide-eyed artist, Margaret Keane, in a new movie aptly titled "Big Eyes."
According to the Hollywood Reporter, the project centers on the life of Mrs. Keane and her wildly ambitious husband, Walter. The two art world hot shots rose to fame in the 1950s and '60s as a result of Margaret's kitschy paintings of doe-eyed children. But the power duo eventually divorced, resulting in a decades-long battle over the artwork created while they were married. Walter, who once likened himself to Rembrandt, claimed he was the mastermind behind the fictional characters, prompting Margaret to challenge her ex to a "paint-off" in court to prove who was the rightful artist. A paint-off did eventually happen and Margaret won, causing Walter to pay out millions in damages (though he never stopped claiming rights to their big-eyed kid paintings).
Burton has been a longtime collector of Margaret's work, and her influence can be seen in a number of his films, including "Beetlejuice" and "The Nightmare Before Christmas." So who will join Burton in his sure-to-be-insane Keane vs. Keane project? According to ARTINFO, Reese Witherspoon and Ryan Reynolds were on board at the beginning but both jumped ship before the movie took off. According to NME, Amy Adams and Christoph Waltz are now both up for playing the odd art couple.
----
My Life as a Famous Artist
July 8, 1975 Awake! article, pp. 12-16:
YOU may have seen a painting of a wistful child with unusually large and sad-looking eyes. Quite likely, it was one I painted. Sad to say, I was as unhappy as the children I painted.
As a sickly child, often alone and very shy, I developed an early talent for drawing. An inquisitive nature led me to wonder about the purpose of life, why we are here, why there are pain, sorrow and death, and if God is good. Always “Why?”
These questions, I believe, were later reflected in the eyes of my paintings of children and, in part, account for their worldwide appeal. The eyes, always the focal point, were often described as “soulful.” They seemed to reflect the spiritual alienation of most people today—their longing for something beyond what this system offers.
My road to popularity in the art world was a rocky one. There were two wrecked marriages and much mental anguish along the way. Controversies surrounding my private life and the authorship of my paintings resulted in international wire stories, lawsuits, front-page pictures and even headlines. For many years I had allowed my second husband to take credit for my paintings. But one day, unable to continue the deception any longer, I left him and my home in California and moved to Hawaii. After a period of depression and very little painting, I began trying to rebuild my life and later married again.
One turning point came in 1970 when a newspaper reporter arranged a televised “paint-out” between me and my former husband, to be held in San Francisco’s Union Square to establish the authorship of the paintings. I was the only one to show up and accept the challenge. Life magazine covered this event in an article that corrected a previous erroneous story that attributed the paintings to my former husband.
My part in the deception had lasted for twelve years and is one that I will always regret. However, it taught me the value of being truthful and that neither fame, love, money nor anything else is worth a bad conscience.
The Unexpected Change
Jehovah’s witnesses came often, every couple of weeks, to my door, but I rarely took their literature or paid much attention to them. Little did I realize that in due time one knock on my door would drastically change my life. That particular morning two Oriental women, one Chinese and the other Japanese, appeared on my doorstep. Sometime prior to their coming, my daughter had shown me an article about the sabbath being Saturday, not Sunday, and about the importance of observing it. It had made such an impression on both of us that we started attending the Seventh-day Adventist Church. I had even stopped painting on Saturday, thinking it was a sin to do so. So when I asked one of these women at my door which day was the sabbath, I was surprised that she answered “Saturday.” So I asked, “Why don’t you observe it?”
Holding Back
Gradually I was convinced from the Bible that the Almighty God is Jehovah, the Father (not the Son), and as I studied I began to rebuild my shattered faith, this time on the true foundation.
Instead, the falsity of the Trinity doctrine, as well as the fact that the Witnesses know and make known the name of the Father, the true God, also their love for one another and their strict adherence to the Scriptures, convinced me that I had found the true religion. I could not help but be deeply impressed by the contrast between Jehovah’s witnesses and the other religions on the matter of finances.
In time, my daughter and I were baptized, together with about forty others, on August 5, 1972, in the beautiful blue Pacific Ocean—a day I will never forget. ...
From Sad Eyes to Bright Eyes
Another change has been that I spend only about a fourth of the time I formerly spent painting, and yet, amazingly, I accomplish almost the same amount of work. Too, sales and comments indicate that the paintings are getting even better. Painting used to be almost an obsession with me. I was driven to paint because it was my therapy, escape and relaxation—my life completely revolved around it. I still enjoy it immensely, but the addiction to it and dependency on it are gone. Since my growing in knowledge of Jehovah, the Source of all creativity, it is no wonder that the quality of my paintings has increased as the time of execution has decreased.
As I look back on my life, my first oil painting, done when I was about eleven years old, now seems quite significant. It was two versions of the same little girl—the one in the background was sad, with tears in her eyes; the one in the foreground had bright smiling eyes. In the past, the symbolic large, sad eyes I painted mirrored the puzzling contradictions I saw in the world around me, and which raised in me so many questions. Now I have found in the Bible the reasons for the contradictions about life that once tormented me, as well as the answers to my questions.
After my gaining accurate knowledge of God and his purpose for mankind, it led me to the real security of having God’s approval and the inner peace and happiness that go with it. This is being reflected in my paintings to a degree that others even detect it. The sad, lost look of the large eyes is giving way now to a happier look. My husband even named one of my recent happy big-eyed children “The Eye Witness”!—Contributed.
---
 
under the radar
under the radar 2 years ago

Thanks for the heads up. I'll be looking for that movie to come out.
 
designs
designs 2 years ago

Hope it is a good film. Interesting artist.
 
breakfast of champions
breakfast of champions 2 years ago

I've read that this film may be Oscar worthy. Should be interesting!
 
NewYork44M
NewYork44M 2 years ago

Wow, I remember that article. Is she still a witness?
 
wannabefree
wannabefree 2 years ago

NewYork44M ... I'm guessing by the title of the thread that she is no longer a Witness
Although according to this website, she was still an active JW in 2009.
http://ex-jw.com/celebrities-jws-3
 
Dagney
Dagney 2 years ago

Anybody remember the paintings she did for Hawaii Bethel? The paradise scene with all the animals with the big eyes.

 
berrygerry
berrygerry 2 years ago

That's ironic.
I was reading that '75 article 2 days ago.
 
ShirleyW
ShirleyW 2 years ago

I remember that story and those pictures from the 60's. My mother bought some when I was a kid and put them in my room since the walls looked so bare and she didn't even know the artist was a JW
 
Band on the Run
Band on the Run 2 years ago

I hate the drawings. Maybe today I could appreciate it as ktisch/avant-garde. I fail to see the art. Yoko' art is a burden to me. The eyes remind me of the dogs playing poker.
 
SoJo16
SoJo16 a year ago
Saw the movie today--several references to JWs. Kind of makes me want an original Keane.
 
kairos
kairos a year ago

Also saw the movie today with the wife.
Still digesting, as we have known her for about 15 years.
She's in the film as a cameo.
Older woman sitting in the background on the park bench.



We attended the bookstudy and meetings for service in her home.
With her daughter Jane, too.
She never told us anything about how rough her life was.
 
Wild_Thing
Wild_Thing a year ago
Is she for sure an ex-JW?  My JW mom is all uber-excited to go see this movie because she still thinks she's a active witness.
 
kairos
kairos a year ago
She is TOTALLY still a JW. 
 
bafh
bafh a year ago
She is still a JW. 
 
kurtbethel
kurtbethel a year ago

Her paintings are predictive programming.
What will humans look like in 100,000 years?


 
Vidiot
Vidiot a year ago

Terrific.
Add spiky hair and oversized weapons, and everybody'll be a Final Fantasy cosplayer.
Archaeologists in that era will find long-lost anime archives and wonder how the f**k we knew.
Margaret Keene's art and religion will be rediscovered and used as the basis for a resurrected JW faith.
Chihuahuas' descendents everywhere will diabolically rub their paws together as the final endgame of their master plan for vengeance reaches fruition.
 
smiddy
smiddy a year ago

I saw this movie yesterday ,certainly a different type of  film from Tim Burton .I found it enjoyable , humourous at times , though margaret was definetely naive , which probably explains why she became a jehovahs witness.
smiddy
 

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