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Hornet’s nest  
Posted: 25 April 2016 12:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
Bruce A Holt
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Since it only took one, single FB post to get me excommunicated almost a month ago, why not poke the hornet's nest again?
 
https://www.facebook.com/bruceah/posts/10207772042792812?pnref=story 
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Science is a way to call the bluff of those who only pretend to knowledge. If we’re true to its values, it can tell us when we’re being lied to. It provides a mid-course correction to our mistakes. - Carl Sagan


   


Posted: 25 April 2016 01:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized
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Great post! I might add the following definition of lies and dishonesty, directly from an approved LDS source:
 
"To Lie Is Dishonest
 
"Lying is intentionally deceiving others. Bearing false witness is one form of lying. The Lord gave this commandment to the children of Israel: “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour” (Exodus 20:16). Jesus also taught this when He was on earth (see Matthew 19:18). There are many other forms of lying. When we speak untruths, we are guilty of lying. We can also intentionally deceive others by a gesture or a look, by silence, or by telling only part of the truth. Whenever we lead people in any way to believe something that is not true, we are not being honest.
 
"The Lord is not pleased with such dishonesty, and we will have to account for our lies. Satan would have us believe it is all right to lie. He says, “Yea, lie a little; ... there is no harm in this” (2 Nephi 28:8). Satan encourages us to justify our lies to ourselves. Honest people will recognize Satan’s temptations and will speak the whole truth, even if it seems to be to their disadvantage." (italics are mine)
 
- Gospel Principles, Chapter 31, "Honesty"  
 
There it is in black and white. The church is condemned by its own teachings.
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Posted: 25 April 2016 01:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
Bruce A Holt
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Matter Unorganized:
 
There it is in black and white. The church is condemned by its own teachings.
 
 Indeed! I couldn't have said it better myself!
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Science is a way to call the bluff of those who only pretend to knowledge. If we’re true to its values, it can tell us when we’re being lied to. It provides a mid-course correction to our mistakes. - Carl Sagan


   


Posted: 26 April 2016 11:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
leftasteen
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I read your FB post and comments.
 
I don't understand the emphasis on JS, or lying, or even on polygamy.  All the detailed dates and names seem totally uneccessary to me.
 
Polygamy was widely practiced by many Mormons, as is evident in any Mormon geneology chart, or cemetary.  No one has to prove it occured under direction of the church.
 
The church is false because it claims God is forever changing his mind.  
 
Widely Accepted Facts: The Church (not just JS) claims modern revelation runs the church.  They claim the "one true gospel" was restored to Joseph, without Polygamy included.  A few years later, the Lord added polygamy as a part of his eternal plan - "celestial marriage."  Then, after a few years more, the Lord dialed up the Modern prophet at the time and repealed the whole thing.
 
Really?
 
Do you really need carefully researched dates, times, names and scripture quotations to know this is all Hokem??
 
Forget eternal truth, the Lord apparently waffles back and forth like a politician running for office. If there is a God up there who created the Earth, do you really think he changes his mind back and forth about his eternal plan like this?  
 
Ditto for the "black curse."  Another "eternal truth" that came and went.  
 
Common sense says the LDS foundation and core belief in modern revelation is all lies.  NO further research required.
 
That's why I ...... left as teen. 


   


Posted: 26 April 2016 12:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
Bruce A Holt
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leftasteen:
I read your FB post and comments.
 
I don't understand the emphasis on JS, or lying, or even on polygamy.  All the detailed dates and names seem totally uneccessary to me.
 
Polygamy was widely practiced by many Mormons, as is evident in any Mormon geneology chart, or cemetary.  No one has to prove it occured under direction of the church.
 
The church is false because it claims God is forever changing his mind.  
 
Widely Accepted Facts: The Church (not just JS) claims modern revelation runs the church.  They claim the "one true gospel" was restored to Joseph, without Polygamy included.  A few years later, the Lord added polygamy as a part of his eternal plan - "celestial marriage."  Then, after a few years more, the Lord dialed up the Modern prophet at the time and repealed the whole thing.
 
Really?
 
Do you really need carefully researched dates, times, names and scripture quotations to know this is all Hokem??
 
Forget eternal truth, the Lord apparently waffles back and forth like a politician running for office. If there is a God up there who created the Earth, do you really think he changes his mind back and forth about his eternal plan like this?  
 
Ditto for the "black curse."  Another "eternal truth" that came and went.  
 
Common sense says the LDS foundation and core belief in modern revelation is all lies.  NO further research required.
 
That's why I ...... left as teen. 
I am not doing what I do for me. I want my family out. But I'm realistic enough to know that is not likely to happen.
 
But I can get them to think. Maybe.
 
To do so, I have to approach them from their own perspective. I don't need to study more, but I do. I don't need to prove to myself the untruth of Mormonism. but I need to prove it to my family. Joseph Smith is the key. He's one I can work with.
 
Now you know. 
 
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Science is a way to call the bluff of those who only pretend to knowledge. If we’re true to its values, it can tell us when we’re being lied to. It provides a mid-course correction to our mistakes. - Carl Sagan


   


Posted: 26 April 2016 02:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Muffin Top
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Bruce, I read most of you FB conversation with the TBM friend and I have a question for you.  I have read (it may have been in "No Man Knows My History") of one of Joseph's scribes who used shorthand to write down Joe's statements and speeches.  Don't remember his name but not likely Thomas Bullock.  Apparently, stenography was a common practice for recording speeches back then.  In your massive reading, did you run across any documentation of Thomas Bullock being a stenographer?  Man, that would be fortuitous if you did find proof.
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“If 50 million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.”
                    —Anatole France
Most people would rather be right than be happy.


   


Posted: 26 April 2016 04:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
Bruce A Holt
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Muffin Top:
Bruce, I read most of you FB conversation with the TBM friend and I have a question for you.  I have read (it may have been in "No Man Knows My History") of one of Joseph's scribes who used shorthand to write down Joe's statements and speeches.  Don't remember his name but not likely Thomas Bullock.  Apparently, stenography was a common practice for recording speeches back then.  In your massive reading, did you run across any documentation of Thomas Bullock being a stenographer?  Man, that would be fortuitous if you did find proof.
 
I found the following to help my friend get better acquainted with Thomas Bullock:
 
https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/salt-lake-city/8-thomas-bullock-lords-clerk
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Science is a way to call the bluff of those who only pretend to knowledge. If we’re true to its values, it can tell us when we’re being lied to. It provides a mid-course correction to our mistakes. - Carl Sagan


   


            
 
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2015 Conference
"LEAVING A LEGACY"
October 16-18
Doubletree Suites
SLC, Utah




















 


Financial Report for 2011 to Date

Financial Report for 2010 to Date

Financial Report for 2009

Twin Falls Newspaper Article

Twin Falls Billboard

Financial Report for 2009 to Date




The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]

Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]

Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]



 Summer Schedule
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
 SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/1)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
Coming up May 1’st 2016 - Kristyn Decker to lecture!
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (4/3)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
Imprompu get-together
[Dead Prophets Soc...] 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (3/6)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series- March 6th, 2016 Author Dave Nelson
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
Open House Meetup: 3/19/16
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
Train ride and picnic Meetup: 2/27/16
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series February 7th, 2016- Joe Rawlins
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The Several Facets of Truth  
Posted: 11 April 2016 07:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Denker
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All who visit this forum are struggling with truth in one way or another.  The recent post of eventhorizon titled "Help", is a good example.  Spiritual truth cannot be defined by a few simple words or phrases.  Through recent years of deep meditation, contemplation, reflection, and deliberation I have finally reasoned out an understanding of the truth concept which I am convinced is a correct understanding.  For the cause of truth then, I throw in my "two-cents worth".
 
One important facet of truth is happiness, the fulfilling, sublime, and enduring kind.  
He who has found this happiness I believe has found truth, his truth.  The truly fulfilled person has it all.  This also means that spiritual truth can be relative.  That is to say what may be totally fulfilling for one person may be totally UNfulfilling for another (e.g. religious affiliation).
 
Spiritual truth has to be right.  By this I mean morally right.  I have reasoned right to be defined by the physical and emotional well-being of self and others in proportion to the level of well-being and the number of people involved.  Here again, truth (right) can be relative according to circumstance.  Example: it is more right for a war prisoner to lie (normally a bad thing) and risk his own well-being (torture) in order to save a company of fellow soldiers than it is for him to tell the truth and preserve his own well-being while possibly sacrificing the well-being of his company.  Another example: it is more right for a church member with dissenting religious views to hold onto the good things yet keep his dissenting opinions to himself and only express them under a code name in a forum such as this than to express them openly and lose the harmony and support of his TBM family.  In the former case all can remain winners (generally speaking).  In the latter case, everyone loses!
 
Truth is reason.  Reason is by far the single most effective and reliable tool for discerning truth.  My favorite example of a false revelation is DC 132.  What thinking Christian would ever believe that our Lord and Savior would destroy a faithful wife for refusing to allow her husband to take on more wives?
 
And finally, truth is the freedom of agency.  We have no control over how others may decide to treat us, but we each have great control over how we choose to treat others (and ourself as well).  We can in large part control our own destiny. We must look to a higher law that transcends all man-made laws and institutions, the law of reason and morality, that applies to all peoples and to which all people are bound.  This is a celestial law, the law of God, the truth unto which Christ came into the world to bear witness (John 18:37).  This is the truth I have come to understand and pledge myself to follow.     


   


Posted: 11 April 2016 12:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
Bruce A Holt
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I'll take a stab at this.
 
I'm a very simple man. For me, truth is simple as well. It exists independent of what we think and believe about it. It is self-contained.
 
It has nothing to do with religion. That religion may find tenets of truth is mere coincidence. 
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Science is a way to call the bluff of those who only pretend to knowledge. If we’re true to its values, it can tell us when we’re being lied to. It provides a mid-course correction to our mistakes. - Carl Sagan


   


Posted: 12 April 2016 06:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Denker
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Bruce A Holt:
I'll take a stab at this.
 
I'm a very simple man. For me, truth is simple as well. It exists independent of what we think and believe about it. It is self-contained.
 
It has nothing to do with religion. That religion may find tenets of truth is mere coincidence. 
 
I believe that truth is omnipresent and has everything to do with everything.  I agree that it is self-existent, and I also think that we can come to learn its attributes as we seek it.


   


Posted: 12 April 2016 08:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Lloyd Dobler
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I'll bite.  
 
There is no truth.  The word is meaningless to me.  I don't define the world or my existence in it with that word anymore.  What use is the word truth?  What would it do for me to learn some truth about the grand master plan of life?  
 
If anything, I think it would be the reverse.  Truth does not inform our happiness but rather where we find our happiness and meaning, informs our truth.  I'm with the one and only god damn Bruce A Holt on this as I don't think its complicated.
 
Of course, I used to believe everything circumscribed into one great whole perfectly, like some master plan of truth that I just needed to align myself to......so since that did not work out to well for me...................here I am. 
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Vindicated, I am selfish, I am wrong, I am right
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Dashboard Confessionalhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDCED-qQExc


   


Posted: 12 April 2016 08:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Celestial Wedgie
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TRUTH: well now that's a big topic!  I also see merit in various ways of assessing things, but I'm not sure how to define truth in a way that I can defend. I do believe in empirical truth, but it can be devilishly difficult to pin down.
 
So I guess I have to admit that for me this is a bridge too far.


   


Posted: 12 April 2016 11:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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maynardg
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O Say what is truth, tis the fairest gem ...  and it goes on.  Is 2 + 2 = 4 a truth or a fact?  When I tell you that 2 + 2 = 4, I am telling you the truth or stating a fact?  Is truth an undisputable fact.  The morgbots say the the B of M is the truest book on the planet  --  yet where are the facts  --  the archaelogical remnants of the people of the B of M.  As morgbots we were taught that pinocchio joetranslated the B of M from gold plates and no one saw them until it was time yet Elder Nelson tells us that he used a stone in a hat  --  the same stone with which he couldn't even find underground treasure and then there are the pictures that show pinocchio joe and his scribe doing the translating thing with the plates in plain view of both of them(like they were holding a FHE)  --  that's not the truth I testified of on my mission  --  a distortion of the FACTS.  The morgbots say that pinocchio joesaw the father and the son, yet all of the first visions show that something is completely/seriously #$%^ed up.  The morgbots believe that P,J&J brought back the melchisedek penishood but there is only a "BTW", three others dudes in robes will bring the melchisedek penishood in D&C 13.  The morgbots believe that the tokens and shit from the holy house of creepy hugs and handshakes came from god and yet if you study the masons, you'd have to be a real village idiot not to realize that pinocchio joestole and tweaked all that shit to justify his male whoring pleasures and to teach the morgbots to keep secrets(well who wouldn't keep secrets if you had to slice your throat and disembowel yourself  --  probably scared them morgbots shitless!).  The morgbots believe that P of GP was translated by pinocchio joefrom papyri and yet we know for a fact that it is pure HORSESHIT(the only reason pinocchio joegot away with the HORSESHIT was the FACT that during his lifetime not many people could translate that HORSESHIT.  But they did stick it to him with the kinderhook plates!
I am not a complicated or intellectual person  --  so, if truth can't be explained to me "like I'm a three/five year-old(OK all you movie buffs  --  who said that line and from what movie?) then it is as useful as a screen door on a submarine(I cleaned that up for the mixed company who may be reading this)
I know for some people "truth is what I say it is"(who said that and from what movie?  And in that case truth is completely subjective and then anything goes which I believe is HORSESHIT!


   


Posted: 12 April 2016 12:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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Truth is in the eye of the beholder.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 12 April 2016 04:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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bradspencer74
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Ah truth.  I am with Lloyd.
 
There is no such thing as truth in any absolute sense.  We can observe facts and make conclusions about those facts, but they are only as applicable as the areas we can observe - or in the areas that those facts "apply."
 
Nothing can move faster than light - except those things that do (Quantum Mechanical experiments proving information transfer faster than light and effects detected before causes).
 
Matter is neither created nor destroyed - except when it is (Hawking radiation around black holes creating real matter from virtual particles)
 
To assume there is an "omnipresent truth" also assumes the onmiscient ability to observe all things.  We certainly cannot observe all things, so we cannot conclude there is an all-encompassing, universal truth about anything anywhere.  All we can say is that a set if facts is true - so far as we know. 
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Posted: 13 April 2016 07:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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Denker
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Lloyd Dobler:
I'll bite.  
 
There is no truth.  The word is meaningless to me.  I don't define the world or my existence in it with that word anymore.  What use is the word truth?  What would it do for me to learn some truth about the grand master plan of life?  
 
If anything, I think it would be the reverse.  Truth does not inform our happiness but rather where we find our happiness and meaning, informs our truth.  I'm with the one and only god damn Bruce A Holt on this as I don't think its complicated.
 
Of course, I used to believe everything circumscribed into one great whole perfectly, like some master plan of truth that I just needed to align myself to......so since that did not work out to well for me...................here I am. 
 
 It seems to me that you have provided another way of expressing the same belief I have about the relationship between happiness and truth which I stated in my original post, which is that he who has found his happiness has found his truth.


   


Posted: 13 April 2016 07:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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Denker
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bradspencer:
Ah truth.  I am with Lloyd.
 
There is no such thing as truth in any absolute sense.  We can observe facts and make conclusions about those facts, but they are only as applicable as the areas we can observe - or in the areas that those facts "apply."
 
Nothing can move faster than light - except those things that do (Quantum Mechanical experiments proving information transfer faster than light and effects detected before causes).
 
Matter is neither created nor destroyed - except when it is (Hawking radiation around black holes creating real matter from virtual particles)
 
To assume there is an "omnipresent truth" also assumes the onmiscient ability to observe all things.  We certainly cannot observe all things, so we cannot conclude there is an all-encompassing, universal truth about anything anywhere.  All we can say is that a set if facts is true - so far as we know. 
 
There seems to be a bit of misunderstanding here.  In my discussion of truth, I was talking about spiritual truth, not physical truth (or empirical facts, if you prefer).  Also, the existence of spiritual truth is certainly not dependent on the ability to observe it.


   


Posted: 13 April 2016 07:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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So, I have found happiness because I am no longer under the control of the morg because I believe in the fact that the morg is built upon the foundation of a great BIG pile of stinking HORSESHIT; therefore I have found the truth and that truth has set me free  --  allalouya and pass the mustard!
 


   


Posted: 13 April 2016 08:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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maynardg:
O Say what is truth, tis the fairest gem ...  and it goes on.  Is 2 + 2 = 4 a truth or a fact?  When I tell you that 2 + 2 = 4, I am telling you the truth or stating a fact?  Is truth an undisputable fact.  The morgbots say the the B of M is the truest book on the planet  --  yet where are the facts  --  the archaelogical remnants of the people of the B of M.  As morgbots we were taught that pinocchio joetranslated the B of M from gold plates and no one saw them until it was time yet Elder Nelson tells us that he used a stone in a hat  --  the same stone with which he couldn't even find underground treasure and then there are the pictures that show pinocchio joe and his scribe doing the translating thing with the plates in plain view of both of them(like they were holding a FHE)  --  that's not the truth I testified of on my mission  --  a distortion of the FACTS.  The morgbots say that pinocchio joesaw the father and the son, yet all of the first visions show that something is completely/seriously #$%^ed up.  The morgbots believe that P,J&J brought back the melchisedek penishood but there is only a "BTW", three others dudes in robes will bring the melchisedek penishood in D&C 13.  The morgbots believe that the tokens and shit from the holy house of creepy hugs and handshakes came from god and yet if you study the masons, you'd have to be a real village idiot not to realize that pinocchio joestole and tweaked all that shit to justify his male whoring pleasures and to teach the morgbots to keep secrets(well who wouldn't keep secrets if you had to slice your throat and disembowel yourself  --  probably scared them morgbots shitless!).  The morgbots believe that P of GP was translated by pinocchio joefrom papyri and yet we know for a fact that it is pure HORSESHIT(the only reason pinocchio joegot away with the HORSESHIT was the FACT that during his lifetime not many people could translate that HORSESHIT.  But they did stick it to him with the kinderhook plates!
I am not a complicated or intellectual person  --  so, if truth can't be explained to me "like I'm a three/five year-old(OK all you movie buffs  --  who said that line and from what movie?) then it is as useful as a screen door on a submarine(I cleaned that up for the mixed company who may be reading this)
I know for some people "truth is what I say it is"(who said that and from what movie?  And in that case truth is completely subjective and then anything goes which I believe is HORSESHIT!
 
 Remember, I asserted that truth is reason, and that reason is by far the most effective and reliable tool for discerning (spiritual) truth.  I am also convinced that emotion is by far the most UNreliable way to perceive truth.  I agree that you would almost have to be the "village idiot" to believe that the B of M came from gold plates that have never been proven to exist, or that the "saving" ordinances of the temple are anything but Masonic rituals.  You show that you are a thinking person as well as a passionate one, which is a good mix.  But in these troubled times of anger and confusion, what this world needs most of all is more thinking and less emotion.


   


Posted: 13 April 2016 08:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
Felix
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I enjoy these discussions; especailly the ones started by newcomers struggling with cog dis. I am no wiz like the rest of you but I'll take a swing at this one.
 
I believe absolute truth does exist as found in the laws of physics,chemistry etc.. Some of these laws we have come to understand and harness for our use and bennefit. Are not the laws of physics an example of absolute truth?
 
Perhaps the possible varible expressions of the laws of physics and chemistry that govern the universe become almost endless and inumerable with increasingly complex systems. Our lives and all life forms are evidence of these laws and truths combining in the myriad of possibilities to create complex systems such as life, all created from and operating in conformity with the laws of physics and chemistry. Life is the most complex system or expression of these laws that govern the universe and its greatest achievement.
 
Happiness is perhaps the ultimate achievement in life and as Joe stated (the object of our design) and most of what we do is spent in the persuit of it. Perhaps there are laws that govern happiness and in as much as we understand and conform to those laws, happiness will be realized.
 
We as intellegent beings have reached a point in our evolution where we can begin to understand the laws that govern the universe and to some extent our happiness. Thus we look for the relationships or causes and effects (truths) that may expalin what we experience and observe.
 
Some truths are found in religion but as Bruce Holt said  "it (truth) has nothing to do with religion. That religion may find tenents of truth is mere concidence." Or to use my own words, religion may posess truth but not necessarily originating from divine souce. Religion possesses many falsehoods as well. 


   


Posted: 13 April 2016 09:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized
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I'm not much of a philosophical guy, so I've been following this from afar. However, I think I'll weigh in.
 
First off - if your starting point is that religion is truth, I'm out of the discussion. I reject any and all religion, including the various franchises of Christianity. This may be a very closed point-of-view, but in my experience, in my REALITY, religion has caused me (and others) too much pain. I do not reject outright the notion of a deity, but I do reject the notion of a deity who would require submission and obeisance. 
 
Second - like others have posted, I believe truth needs to be verified by observable data. Warm fuzzy feelings are proof only of warm fuzzy feelings. Anything we assign to them is subjective. When others assign meaning to them, as churches do, it is highly questionable.
 
Third - the existence of something in and of itself proves nothing except its existence. Christians will say the Bible is the proof of God, or mormons will say the BoM is proof of the church's veracity. NO, the existence of the Bible only proves the existence of a collection of manuscrupts, many of dubious or apocryphal origin. Similarly, the existence of the BoM only proves that someone wrote a book and got it published. It doesn't prove that God or Jesus are real, or that JS was a prophet. Do do that requires a warm fuzzy feeling, which the believers and adherents, or even the books themselves, will tell you that this warm feeling is proof. This, my friends, is circular reasoning, one of the most basic of all logical fallacies. "The Bible is true because the Bible tells me so!"
 
Give me cold, hard, provable facts, and let me decide for myself. If I reject the facts, no matter how uncomfortable, I am an idiot. (I'm still working on that one  )
 
 
 
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Posted: 13 April 2016 09:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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Denker
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Felix:
I enjoy these discussions; especailly the ones started by newcomers struggling with cog dis. I am no wiz like the rest of you but I'll take a swing at this one.
 
I believe absolute truth does exist as found in the laws of physics,chemistry etc.. Some of these laws we have come to understand and harness for our use and bennefit. Are not the laws of physics an example of absolute truth?
 
Perhaps the possible varible expressions of the laws of physics and chemistry that govern the universe become almost endless and inumerable with increasingly complex systems. Our lives and all life forms are evidence of these laws and truths combining in the myriad of possibilities to create complex systems such as life, all created from and operating in conformity with the laws of physics and chemistry. Life is the most complex system or expression of these laws that govern the universe and its greatest achievement.
 
Happiness is perhaps the ultimate achievement in life and as Joe stated (the object of our design) and most of what we do is spent in the persuit of it. Perhaps there are laws that govern happiness and in as much as we understand and conform to those laws, happiness will be realized.
 
We as intellegent beings have reached a point in our evolution where we can begin to understand the laws that govern the universe and to some extent our happiness. Thus we look for the relationships or causes and effects (truths) that may expalin what we experience and observe.
 
Some truths are found in religion but as Bruce Holt said  "it (truth) has nothing to do with religion. That religion may find tenents of truth is mere concidence." Or to use my own words, religion may posess truth but not necessarily originating from divine souce. Religion possesses many falsehoods as well. 
 
 Luv this intellectual exchange!!  One question upfront though.  The statement that "some truths are found in religion but truth has nothing to do with religion" sounds like a contradiction to me, and how can (spiritual) truth have NOTHING to do with religion?  Perhaps someone can enlighten me.  
 
Glad to see your comments on the absolute law of physics and chemistry that governs the physical universe.  As with our bodies, where there is a spiritual side as well as a physical side, I believe there is a spiritual side to the universe as well as the physical side, and that there is a transcendent law that governs the spiritual universe but which is only meaningful to live, intelligent, sentient beings.  The four facets of truth I have discussed -- happiness, reason, agency, and right-- are essential core principles of this law.


   


Posted: 13 April 2016 10:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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Denker
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Matter Unorganized:
I'm not much of a philosophical guy, so I've been following this from afar. However, I think I'll weigh in.
 
First off - if your starting point is that religion is truth, I'm out of the discussion. I reject any and all religion, including the various franchises of Christianity. This may be a very closed point-of-view, but in my experience, in my REALITY, religion has caused me (and others) too much pain. I do not reject outright the notion of a deity, but I do reject the notion of a deity who would require submission and obeisance. 
 
Second - like others have posted, I believe truth needs to be verified by observable data. Warm fuzzy feelings are proof only of warm fuzzy feelings. Anything we assign to them is subjective. When others assign meaning to them, as churches do, it is highly questionable.
 
Third - the existence of something in and of itself proves nothing except its existence. Christians will say the Bible is the proof of God, or mormons will say the BoM is proof of the church's veracity. NO, the existence of the Bible only proves the existence of a collection of manuscrupts, many of dubious or apocryphal origin. Similarly, the existence of the BoM only proves that someone wrote a book and got it published. It doesn't prove that God or Jesus are real, or that JS was a prophet. Do do that requires a warm fuzzy feeling, which the believers and adherents, or even the books themselves, will tell you that this warm feeling is proof. This, my friends, is circular reasoning, one of the most basic of all logical fallacies. "The Bible is true because the Bible tells me so!"
 
Give me cold, hard, provable facts, and let me decide for myself. If I reject the facts, no matter how uncomfortable, I am an idiot. (I'm still working on that one  )
 
 
 
Brother Krebs: Philadelphia, and Shooter.
 You have just described two of the four facets of truth I discussed in my original post -- happiness and reason.  I agree that happiness is a very personal, subjective, and relative thing.  In pursuit of his happiness, a person ought to hold onto what makes him truly happy and cast aside that which makes him unhappy.  Reason alone can tell any thinking person that the B of M is only a religious novel.  I agree also that anyone who has the pure facts before him and still rejects them, goes against reason and is somewhat of an idiot, or at least a fool.
 


   


Posted: 13 April 2016 04:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
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bradspencer74
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Denker:
bradspencer:
Ah truth.  I am with Lloyd.
 
There is no such thing as truth in any absolute sense.  We can observe facts and make conclusions about those facts, but they are only as applicable as the areas we can observe - or in the areas that those facts "apply."
 
Nothing can move faster than light - except those things that do (Quantum Mechanical experiments proving information transfer faster than light and effects detected before causes).
 
Matter is neither created nor destroyed - except when it is (Hawking radiation around black holes creating real matter from virtual particles)
 
To assume there is an "omnipresent truth" also assumes the onmiscient ability to observe all things.  We certainly cannot observe all things, so we cannot conclude there is an all-encompassing, universal truth about anything anywhere.  All we can say is that a set if facts is true - so far as we know. 
 
There seems to be a bit of misunderstanding here.  In my discussion of truth, I was talking about spiritual truth, not physical truth (or empirical facts, if you prefer).  Also, the existence of spiritual truth is certainly not dependent on the ability to observe it.
 
 I gathered that you meant spiritual in the first segment, which is why I did not address it.  I do not know that it is especially pertanent to your subject, but I view "morality" from a purely non-spiritual point of view.  If fact, I do not believe that anything
spiritual in any supernatural sense exists.  Therefore, spritual truth - as I think you might be meaning in that term - does not exist.
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“Fitness is my religion and the gym is my temple” Fitness God 3:16
The Gym is my Church.  My sweat is my prayers.  My strength is my salvation.


   


Posted: 15 April 2016 09:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
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son of perdition
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Hi Denker, I just want to add that happiness is an emotional state.  Truth is an intellectual concept.  What is the relationship between happiness(an emotional state) and truth (a logical concept)?  
 
There doesn't seem to be any absolute truths.  Truth is relative.  For example, the speed of light is inconsistent.  There is no absolute speed of light.  The current speed of light was arrived at by averaging various speeds that were measured and recorded by scientists.
 
Using only logic to make decisions doesn't lead to happiness.  Happiness is achieved by satisfying one's emotional state.  It is easy to prove that LDS doctrine is false, yet intellegent people continue to stay in the church.  These reasons are emotional not intellectual.  No person that I know of has left the church solely for factual reasons.  There is always an emotional component for leaving.  When all people are living by the same truth it is uncomfortable to live by another truth. There are no absolutes everything is relative.  As we develope we out grow various truths and paradigmes.  True enoughs are what we live with not absolutes.
 


   


Posted: 15 April 2016 09:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
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I've mostly stayed out because I have so little to add to this discussion. But I think there are absolute truths. My capacity to "know" them might be imperfect but that doesn't change the nature of the truths themselves.
 
2+2=4. I think that's invariant and true in an absolute sense. It's okay to allow that there are truths that are beyond the capacity of humans to interfere, things that remain as they are.
 
There are also historical truths, even if we're now on slippier territory. Monson was president of the LDS church. Packer wasn't. That may fade from significance over the course of years but the basic facts remain.


   


Posted: 24 April 2016 07:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]   

   
 
leftasteen
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Absolute truth only exists absent human perception. Humans are imperfect, variable, and bias.  As soon as human observation, measurement, analysis, or definition comes into play, we can not know absolutely.  
 
As for religious truth.  I am always amused by doctrines where there is an eternal omnipotent God who created the earth, sky, and yet, some individual member of that church is so important that they are privy to every detail of God's plans, and truth.  The notion that members of a certain church need and have all the truth seems as arrogant as it is ridiculous. 


   


Posted: 24 April 2016 08:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]   

   
 
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Celestial Wedgie:
I've mostly stayed out because I have so little to add to this discussion. But I think there are absolute truths. My capacity to "know" them might be imperfect but that doesn't change the nature of the truths themselves.
 
2+2=4. I think that's invariant and true in an absolute sense. It's okay to allow that there are truths that are beyond the capacity of humans to interfere, things that remain as they are.
 
There are also historical truths, even if we're now on slippier territory. Monson was president of the LDS church. Packer wasn't. That may fade from significance over the course of years but the basic facts remain.
 
I don't mean to get all "wonky" on this but, 2+2=4 is variant and not true in an absolute sense.
 
An absolute truth is defined as something being true absolutely or true not relative to something else.  Meaning, x is true no matter what.
 
In the case of 2+2=4 in everyday thought, there are a number of assumptions (axioms in mathmatics) and conditionals that make this statement true ONLY when those conditions exist.  Easy example to understand:
 
2+2=4 in everyday thought is true on the condition that 2 and 2 are in a decimal system (in mathematics base 10).  If, however, you are working in binary for computer programming (base 2 in mathematics) 2+2 does not exist as the symbol "2" does not exist.  If you wanted to express the "idea" of 2+2=4 in binary, you would have to write "10+10=100"  
 
Point being - you can define things as being absolutely true BUT ONLY when you accept that you are assuming certain base axioms as accepted by all or self-evident.  And, if those things depend on underlying assumptions - they are not absolute truth.  In fact, your statement about Monson being president of the LDS Church is much closer to an absolute truth than 2+2.
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“Fitness is my religion and the gym is my temple” Fitness God 3:16
The Gym is my Church.  My sweat is my prayers.  My strength is my salvation.


   


Posted: 25 April 2016 07:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]   

   
 
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maynardg
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OK  -- you have all learned this in school:
 
"For every action, there is an opposite and equal reaction"  --  so is this a fact, a truth, absolute truth or a law.  IMVHO, I believe it can be all four and I also believe that you have to see it happen for it be valid(another interesting concept).


   


Posted: 25 April 2016 01:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]   

   
 
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Celestial Wedgie
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bradspencer:
[snip]

Point being - you can define things as being absolutely true BUT ONLY when you accept that you are assuming certain base axioms as accepted by all or self-evident.  And, if those things depend on underlying assumptions - they are not absolute truth.  In fact, your statement about Monson being president of the LDS Church is much closer to an absolute truth than 2+2.
 
Good point about 2+2, although binary is out since it wouldn't include the 2 and 4 symbols.


   


Posted: 25 April 2016 05:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]   

   
 
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bradspencer74
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maynardg:
OK  -- you have all learned this in school:
 
"For every action, there is an opposite and equal reaction"  --  so is this a fact, a truth, absolute truth or a law.  IMVHO, I believe it can be all four and I also believe that you have to see it happen for it be valid(another interesting concept).
 
I guess I wind up  raining on people.  I don't like it, but, 
 
Examples of the Violation of Newton's Third Law.
 
It is a law.  It is a truth in many situation, but not all.  It is not absolute truth, as just this one experiment demonstrates that Newton's Third Law can be violated.  It is not a fact, because it is a law.  A law is part of the process that science uses to explain why a set of observed facts happen - an apple always drops toward the ground when it is released by a human hand. (the other part being the theory underlying that law.)
 
Difference between Fact, Law, and Theory in Science. 
 
Of course, when you wander into more esoteric realms such as metaphysics - wherein lies religion - those differences are tossed out the window. 
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The Gym is my Church.  My sweat is my prayers.  My strength is my salvation.


   


Posted: 26 April 2016 06:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]   

   
 
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son of perdition
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Using math or any other system as a model of absolute truth is problematic.  Truth is circumstantial.  The truth is arrived at by studying the circumstances related to the truth being examined.  Does the sun set in the west?  Of course it does.  From space, however, the earth is rotating around the sun, and saying the sun sets in the west has no meaning from the perspective of space.  So far, every model has exceptions.  How can a perfect model of truth have exceptions?  Having exceptions implies that the absolute truth has not been arrived at.  That is why the church does not want to change?  It's an admission that the absolute truth has not been arrive at.  
 
Making decisions using logic is wise.  However you must ask yourself if this logical decision will make me happy?  We have been conditioned to believe that living by intellectual truths will make us happy and that somehow morality lines up with intellectual truth.  Morality comes from culture and is relative.  Check out the morality on Kolob.  
 


   


Posted: 28 April 2016 07:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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"Truth" has been a word bandied about for centuries, by philosophers/teachers/gurus far smarter than most of us. They argued/debated/calculated with various tricks/maths/rituals and still never fully came to any conclusions with "consensus." Truth was always "accepted" by a certain group, usually ones in power. It still goes on...even today. Those with the money/power....dictate truth...and we as the cattle/chattel/underlings...are forced to accept it or be ostracized from the tribe.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 28 April 2016 10:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]   

   
 
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son of perdition
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Hi Denker.  Not much about the concept of spiritual truth has been discussed in your thread. The idea that there is somehow spiritual truth that is different from physical truth is a very ancient belief.  The idea of spiritual truth imples that there is some unseen hidden underunlying truth to reality.  We experience reality though our physical bodies with the brain. 
 
There's an argument as to which is the foundation of consciousness?  Which comes first?  Is the physical body amd brain the foundation stone on which consciousness depends; or is the brain working like a reciever in a radio picking up a signal being transmitted from some invisible demension?   Meaning that consciousness isn't a byproduct of the brain and body.  
 
Our minds are an interface between an outer physical reality and  an inner subjective reality.  We experience both realities simultaneously.  During the day we focus on our outer physical reality and it's many objects.  At night, when we sleep we focus on our inner subjective reality. The same parts of the brain process both kinds of expereince. To the mind both of these realities and there experience carry the same weight.  Science is largely responsible in spreading the belief that the imagination isn't real.  How ca this be when science cannot perform even the simpliest experiments with out the use of the imagination.
 
There exists the idea that when we die our consciousness retreats into this invisible landscape from which we dream and reason.  The imagination is the true spirit world according to the shamans in Peru and many other parts of the world.   Man has evolved in symbiosis with flowering plants.  Plants have been our allies in our evolution.  We use them for food, medicine and just about everything.  Plants we deem valualble we save and the rest are weeds.  Spiritual expereince for non westerners often requires the use of a mind altering plants accompanied by a spiritual retreat like a vision quest or ceremony.  Western man has been robbed by the priests and rulers of having these experiences.  
Dennis Mckenna is a scientist who has spent a lifetime studying the mind and it's many states:       https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQL0NfPBWgw
 
Please listen to the entire lecture.  It starts off very basic but makes some really important points and is more interesting towards the middle and end.


   


            
 
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Why do you think the Witnesses never recanted their testimonies?  
Posted: 23 April 2016 07:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
TheDogLady
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Personally I think that the witnesses never recanted even to their dying day because telling the truth would have been harder.
Consider all of us at Post mormon or other sites that support those of us who have left.
It has been a difficult journey fraught with family and friend conflict and a constant barage of people trying to "reconvert" us. With this or that.....mostly with "feelings" we have had about the truthfullness of the Gospel.
I think they may have been facing the kind of problems we are experiencing in trying to say publicley what they know to be true.
The only thing any of them would say was that they "saw" the plates through a vision or with their "spiritual" eyes.
What do you think some of the reasons that they didn't recant were? 
 
 
 
 
 
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Posted: 23 April 2016 07:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Morethanmo
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I don't think they kept silent because they were ashamed of lying. I think they were genuinely conned. They were probably in induced trance states when Ol' Joe convinced them that they were seeing objects or people. They probably spent their lives hiding their shame behind lies.
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“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
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Then he is malevolent.
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Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
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Posted: 23 April 2016 08:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Jon Marshall
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TheDogLady:
Personally I think that the witnesses never recanted even to their dying day because telling the truth would have been harder.
Consider all of us at Post mormon or other sites that support those of us who have left.
It has been a difficult journey fraught with family and friend conflict and a constant barage of people trying to "reconvert" us. With this or that.....mostly with "feelings" we have had about the truthfullness of the Gospel.
I think they may have been facing the kind of problems we are experiencing in trying to say publicley what they know to be true.
The only thing any of them would say was that they "saw" the plates through a vision or with their "spiritual" eyes.
What do you think some of the reasons that they didn't recant were? 
 
 
 
 
 
Neo: "Why do my eyes hurt"
Morpheus: "Becuase you've never used them" 
 
 I agree with you. Did anyone other than "JS" actually see the GP's?  Emma, did not even see them. She just felt them. 
 
I think they did not recant because they truly did not see them, just felt and they did not know if it was real or not. JS was the best snakeoil salesman of that era.
 
As the great quote from Tommy Boy says:
 
"Your father could sell a ketchup popsicle to a woman in white gloves"-  
 
Same could be said for old JS
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Posted: 23 April 2016 11:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
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Morethanmo:
I don't think they kept silent because they were ashamed of lying. I think they were genuinely conned. They were probably in induced trance states when Ol' Joe convinced them that they were seeing objects or people. They probably spent their lives hiding their shame behind lies.
It would be embarassing to admit you had been conned that badly same as the GAs today do not want to be seen as being that stupid besides I think they are under so many contracts from the church, they would never be able to own anything.  Also, they could have been drugged--did someone mention that?  Joseph had an uncle, I believe who was into the mushroom-type drugs--which can produce religious-type hullucinations.  I don't know if someone in that state might be able to be led?  Joseph Smith would have probably known.
 
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 23 April 2016 05:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
TheDogLady
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Strong Free & Thankful:
Morethanmo:
I don't think they kept silent because they were ashamed of lying. I think they were genuinely conned. They were probably in induced trance states when Ol' Joe convinced them that they were seeing objects or people. They probably spent their lives hiding their shame behind lies.
It would be embarassing to admit you had been conned that badly same as the GAs today do not want to be seen as being that stupid besides I think they are under so many contracts from the church, they would never be able to own anything.  Also, they could have been drugged--did someone mention that?  Joseph had an uncle, I believe who was into the mushroom-type drugs--which can produce religious-type hullucinations.  I don't know if someone in that state might be able to be led?  Joseph Smith would have probably known.
 
 Also they lived in a time when visions and faith healings and demon possesion were commonplace. Just think of today's evangelical who has someone place their hand on their heads and says "you are healed" or casting out demons. Why in the last century alone thier were many "exorcisms" And Martin Harris claimed he had a conversation with Jesus as a deer when he was walking down the road. 
Relatively easy to believe with the religious ferver taking place at the time. 
 
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Neo: “Why do my eyes hurt?”
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Posted: 24 April 2016 08:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
finex
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I think the fear of tar & feathers or worse kept them from exposing the hoax they were involved in. 

   


Posted: 24 April 2016 08:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Winyan
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I think it was probably fear. They had taken death oaths and been threatened into obedience by satan. That leaves a mark on your psyche. 

   


Posted: 25 April 2016 03:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
peace out
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Morethanmo:
I don't think they kept silent because they were ashamed of lying. I think they were genuinely conned. They were probably in induced trance states when Ol' Joe convinced them that they were seeing objects or people. They probably spent their lives hiding their shame behind lies.
 
 a long time ago I read some research about plant based drugs used at that time and known to herbalist, Folk medicine. 
 
If you notice they took sacramental wine before they started praying. If you compare the list of effects of those plants and the early mass visions including temple visions. symptoms and duration of visions seems to line up. 
 
  Found article
http://www.i4m.com/think/history/holy-ghost.htm 
 
These early Church members sought direct experience with God and believed that Joseph Smith had the power to grant their desires. Confidence in their Prophet was not misplaced. Between 1830 and 1836, under the supervision of Joseph Smith, many early Mormon converts enjoyed heavenly visions and spiritual raptures. However, after Joseph’s death in 1844, the great visionary period of Church history came to an end.
Twenty years later, in 1864, members would ask Church leaders, “why it is that we do not see more angels, have more visions, that we do not see greater and more manifestations of power?”
The mystery seems to center around Joseph Smith himself. According to church historian Richard Bushman, it was Joseph Smith himself that connected converts to heaven by some power that he possessed, a power that remains a mystery to this day.(Bushman, R. L. (2005). Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling. New York: Alfred A. Knopf. P. 560)


   


Posted: 25 April 2016 07:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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maynardg
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No one was suppose to have seen the GPs, but there are pictures that are shown in primary/sunday school with pinnochio joeand his scribe sitting at a table with the plates in full view of both people  --  like they were holding FHE.  That was thing that use to bother me along with the photos of pinocchio joe that made him look like a hollywood movie star, yet he was homelier than a dog's hind leg!
IMVHO, the reason the witnesses never recanted there testimonies,  just like individuals go on missions when they have significant doubts;  stay on their missions even when doubts become even more significant; get married in the holy house of creepy hugs and handshakes still having doubts;  remain in the church even after receiving a testamonkey that the morg is built upon the foundation of a stinking pile of HORSESHIT  --  PRESSURE  --  of the consequence  --  a significant one  --  being labeled an APOSTATE and being shunned by the ones we love(morgbots are experts at shunning  --  make the Amish green with envy at how expert they are!).


   


Posted: 25 April 2016 03:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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Quartersawn
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Too long to quote all the good parts here, but Mormon Think has great articles on all three 'witnesses' and their beliefs in magic, and the occult. 
 
http://www.mormonthink.com/witnessesweb.htm
 
 
 
 
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Why would you consider a man a prophet whose morals are worse than your own? Having claimed to commune with deity, be visited by angels and receive revelations, should he not be held to a higher standard? —me


   


Posted: 25 April 2016 05:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
huehuetenango
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TheDogLady:
Personally I think that the witnesses never recanted even to their dying day because telling the truth would have been harder.
Consider all of us at Post mormon or other sites that support those of us who have left.
It has been a difficult journey fraught with family and friend conflict and a constant barage of people trying to "reconvert" us. With this or that.....mostly with "feelings" we have had about the truthfullness of the Gospel.
I think they may have been facing the kind of problems we are experiencing in trying to say publicley what they know to be true.
The only thing any of them would say was that they "saw" the plates through a vision or with their "spiritual" eyes.
What do you think some of the reasons that they didn't recant were? 
 
 
 
 
 
Neo: "Why do my eyes hurt"
Morpheus: "Becuase you've never used them" 
 
 When you speak of their "testimonies" are you talking about the printed statements or other statements?


   


Posted: 26 April 2016 04:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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guywithearrings50
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Like someone mentioned above, I think it was fear. They may have been first "rewarded" for making the statements in the first place (monetary or otherwise), then never recanted because I really believe they felt that Joe Smith would ruin their reputations. Either old Joe or the church organization as a whole. they would be the laughing stock and made to look like fools. At the very least their social reputations would be ruined. 
 
there could be other reasons as well. maybe they were drugged when they were supposedly shown the plates and really believed what they were seeing. someone mentioned that some of the witnesses were into the occult so it would be easy to "persuade" them that the plates were real.
 
 
 
 


   


Posted: 27 April 2016 03:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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Quartersawn
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Seeing visions, heavenly or previously earthly beings, was farily common in the NE US. People belived the Three Witnesses and supported their story telling, they wanted something to latch on to. 
 
Like many other LDS I wondered why I hadn't seen any heavenly messengers or ancestors. While in the Manti Temple one time I was convinced I saw my dead mother and my brother who died shortly after birth. I would repeat this story and tell relatives what my deceased brother looked like.
After I left the church I came to realize it was just my desire to see something...so I could tell others I had seen something special  (and they haven't, neener, neener, neener). Yes, it was a matter of pride.  
 
Perhaps the three witnesses would have been seen as 'less than' if they recanted their stories.  
There is some evidence they recanted to some degree in the MormonThink linked above. 
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Why would you consider a man a prophet whose morals are worse than your own? Having claimed to commune with deity, be visited by angels and receive revelations, should he not be held to a higher standard? —me


   


Posted: 27 April 2016 03:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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epic
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Just to throw this out there.  But, how do we know that the witnesses never recanted their "testimonies"???  It would seem to me that the organization that is claiming that they never recanted  has a long history of suppressing and covering up. Why not suppress and cover this up as well?
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Posted: 27 April 2016 05:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
Hank
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First, they were almost all related to each other in one way or another (Cowdery was JS's cousin). Just look at how many shared the same few last names. They were into magic and occult stuff back then, so were easy to influence in the "spiritual" sense.
 
The following has no good evidence, just a few claims supposedly made by Palmyra residents: There was a Native American names Henry who was known as a medicine man. Henry and JS hung out quite a bit while Henry stayed in the area for a period of time (a few weeks). Some believe that Henry introduced JS to a plant common in Upstate NY, which when taken, would make people think that they saw angels and Gods and all things spiritual.
 
Why would some people believe Henry really existed? Becuase the journals of members state that after consuming the sacremental wine, people would start to speak in tongues and have strong religious experiences, giving them their testimonies...and these experiences happened when JS was presiding over sacrament.
 
And after JS's death, people noticed that no one spoke in tongues anymore. Angels stopped visiting, etc. All that magic simply vanished after JS died....


   


Posted: 27 April 2016 08:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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Silver Girl
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Good question.
 
I agree that all of the previous comments are good possibilities, including whether it is even true than none of them recanted.  As we know...just because we were taught that by the church doesn't mean it is true.
 
What if it isn't even true that they all testified of it in the first place?  At the very least, they were heavily influenced/coerced into it. 
 
I remembered this previous discussion that talks about the signatures, I recommend reading through it (it isn't a long thread):
 
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/36569/ 
 
Also,  if they had testified to something that didn't really happen, recanting that testimony would be admitting that they had lied and participated willingly in conning people.  They probably didnt want to go there.
 
I think an important take away here is that we quickly and easily came up with several more likely possible explanations as to why the witnesses never reacanted  than "because the mormon go revealed it to them and they knew it."
 
It is amazing how something the church made seem so obvious and incontrovertible is actually very unlikely to have happened that way.
 
SG 
 
 


   


Posted: 27 April 2016 01:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
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Dovolente
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"A man is only as good as his word."  My understanding of the times is that this used to mean a lot more then than it does now.
 
So if you admitted you were kinda suckered and ended up signing your name to a lie, well... you just showed everyone that you're a rotten untrustworthy scumbag.  
 
On the other hand, if you were hanging out with ruffians and bootleggers and mountain men and other such outcasts of society, it might have earned you some street cred and a spot at the poker table.  I'm guessing these guys weren't that type, though. 
 
 


   


Posted: 28 April 2016 07:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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I think the coffee/wine he gave them prior to, made them hallucinate....so believed that something happened. They couldn't exactly be "clear" as most of it was fuzzy....(like the LSD trips seemed real to those who imbibed.) They were indoctrinated in the worst way...and even when they broke away....they kept getting flashbacks, drug-induced.
 
Just remember, Emma Smith nearly killed Joseph with his own "special-blend" of coffee she made for him from his stash. 
 
This church is a horror story that just keeps on giving.
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Posted: 28 April 2016 11:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
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I haven't researched this theory to see if it fits the timeline, but it seems plausible that JS abused his positions in both the church and the freemasons to make the witnesses take a blood oath, after which they were convinced they would be killed if they recanted. Even after his death, they would fear their fellow witnesses and possibly others in the know.
 
Did I just become a conspiracy theorist?
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Richard Turley of Swedish Rescue fame  
Posted: 26 April 2016 01:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
Avatar
Quartersawn
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Richard Eyring Turley, of Swedish Rescue obfuscation fame, is to lead the church's PR arm. 
 
http://www.sltrib.com/home/3821646-155/assistant-church-historian-to-oversee-mormon
 
Turley is a lawyer, turned historian. Perfect for more white-washing and CYA, lying for the Lord ahead.
 
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Why would you consider a man a prophet whose morals are worse than your own? Having claimed to commune with deity, be visited by angels and receive revelations, should he not be held to a higher standard? —me


   


Posted: 26 April 2016 04:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
Free2Live
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Thanks for the link. It does look like more and more dishonesty still in the pipeline ahead. 
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One is as committed into testimony as much as they pay into the belief in dollars, time, talent and energy. Afterall, it has to be true once you have signed the lifetime subscription and you have a track record to defend.


   


Posted: 27 April 2016 04:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
former victim
Long Timer
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Apparently Mr. Turley is a well connected career company man who will no doubt earn his pay carrying more water to put out the future fires for TSCc (small c is intentional.) May he be blessed with ample buckets, as the Internet is relentless.
 
And like one commentator already mentioned, its a fancy name for a Myth Guardian.


   


Posted: 27 April 2016 02:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
Free2Live
Long Timer
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Joined  2012-09-01
 
  
 
former victim:
Apparently Mr. Turley is a well connected career company man who will no doubt earn his pay carrying more water to put out the future fires for TSCc (small c is intentional.) May he be blessed with ample buckets, as the Internet is relentless.
 
And like one commentator already mentioned, its a fancy name for a Myth Guardian.
 
 Thanks former victim! Myth Guardian is a fitting term! The history of this cult is chock full of ways and means that the lds enforce their fiction. Presently they are maintaining this posture as it indicates a future full of more of the same. 
 Signature
One is as committed into testimony as much as they pay into the belief in dollars, time, talent and energy. Afterall, it has to be true once you have signed the lifetime subscription and you have a track record to defend.


   


Posted: 28 April 2016 04:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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bradspencer74
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It is an extremely savvy move on the part of the Q15.  
 
When the real history of the Church is coming to light to the membership - at last through the Net and publications such as the essays in response - who better to deal with those questions than one totally familiar with the real history?  Who better to deal with the Church's involvement in politics than a laywer? Who better to defect and twist in the face of the crumbling of the YSA age's faith  - to the point of one of the Q15 actually acknowledging that a solid percentage of the YSAs and Young Marrieds found the Church's LGBT stance as based on hate and disciminatory - and the Church's political positions than a man who has both credentials?
 
No matter what we may feel about it and what he is defending, it is one of the better hires I have seen the Church make in some time. Now for Mr. Turley, as Star Trek's Q would say, "The hall is rented, the band engaged.  Now it's time to see if you can dance."
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“Fitness is my religion and the gym is my temple” Fitness God 3:16
The Gym is my Church.  My sweat is my prayers.  My strength is my salvation.


   


Posted: 28 April 2016 04:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
Avatar
Quartersawn
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Joined  2009-12-10
 
  
 
bradspencer:
It is an extremely savvy move on the part of the Q15.  
 
When the real history of the Church is coming to light to the membership - at last through the Net and publications such as the essays in response - who better to deal with those questions than one totally familiar with the real history?  Who better to deal with the Church's involvement in politics than a laywer? Who better to defect and twist in the face of the crumbling of the YSA age's faith  - to the point of one of the Q15 actually acknowledging that a solid percentage of the YSAs and Young Marrieds found the Church's LGBT stance as based on hate and disciminatory - and the Church's political positions than a man who has both credentials?
 
No matter what we may feel about it and what he is defending, it is one of the better hires I have seen the Church make in some time. Now for Mr. Turley, as Star Trek's Q would say, "The hall is rented, the band engaged.  Now it's time to see if you can dance."
 
 And dance he will, around every non-faith promoting truth that comes back at him.
I totally agree with you, even though he knows the history, he also knows legal double-speak to get around the unsavory parts and still make "the gospel" look appealing.
 Signature
Why would you consider a man a prophet whose morals are worse than your own? Having claimed to commune with deity, be visited by angels and receive revelations, should he not be held to a higher standard? —me


   


            
 
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Thanks for the slaughter, God  
Posted: 22 April 2016 03:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
Kerouac
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You wouldn't imagine a silly little thing like lambs blood could make a big sword-wielding angel piss himself, but then you're like, "oh right, it's religion, stop trying to make sense of it."  

I was reminded, tonight at sundown begins Passover for our Jewish friends.  Don't worry if you already made plans, it lasts a week.  Cause really, you need a good eight days to pay homage to God for wholesale killing the thousands of first-born children of your former Egyptian captors. I like to envision some Egyptian siblings were like, "golly, I'm sad he's gone but he was kinda a prick."

If only the Egyptians got that memo the Destroying Angel turns into quivering piss at the sight of lamb's blood, and smeared some on their doorframe, which is unquestionably how all self respecting sword-hacking angels choose to enter a room, then all of history may have been altered, especially for lambs!

Apologies if my signature cynicism is overly ripe.  Passover is a subtle reminder for me of the comparative values associated with an emotional-led belief in mysticism versus a cerebral-led zest for critical thinking and scientific evidence.  I truly don't believe one way is greater than the other.  Both Provide a form of peace to it's disciples.  Not all people will ever feel the need to question their myths and ferry tales and butt their head against convention. Mostly because it requires courage to move outside what's comfortable.  You all have exhibited this courage and I'm proud to find myself in such company! 

   


Posted: 23 April 2016 11:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
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Kerouac:
You wouldn't imagine a silly little thing like lambs blood could make a big sword-wielding angel piss himself, but then you're like, "oh right, it's religion, stop trying to make sense of it."  

I was reminded, tonight at sundown begins Passover for our Jewish friends.  Don't worry if you already made plans, it lasts a week.  Cause really, you need a good eight days to pay homage to God for wholesale killing the thousands of first-born children of your former Egyptian captors. I like to envision some Egyptian siblings were like, "golly, I'm sad he's gone but he was kinda a prick."

If only the Egyptians got that memo the Destroying Angel turns into quivering piss at the sight of lamb's blood, and smeared some on their doorframe, which is unquestionably how all self respecting sword-hacking angels choose to enter a room, then all of history may have been altered, especially for lambs!

Apologies if my signature cynicism is overly ripe.  Passover is a subtle reminder for me of the comparative values associated with an emotional-led belief in mysticism versus a cerebral-led zest for critical thinking and scientific evidence.  I truly don't believe one way is greater than the other.  Both Provide a form of peace to it's disciples.  Not all people will ever feel the need to question their myths and ferry tales and butt their head against convention. Mostly because it requires courage to move outside what's comfortable.  You all have exhibited this courage and I'm proud to find myself in such company!
 Kerouac,
 
We are proud to find ourselves in your company as well!  One thing that has always been a red flag for me is the way religions--who claim ultimate goodness--are so uncaring and even cruel to animals.  Joseph Smith slit dogs throats and sheep's throats in his teenage money digging days.  I was thinking today that I would never want anything to do with a god who required a sacrifice of an innocent animal to pay for a human's sin.  I can find millions of humans who have better character than that mean god.  I love the way people are beginning to progress past religions, which are full of both goodness and evil.  Why were we so stupid for so long????????
 
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 23 April 2016 03:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
leftasteen
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Joined  2014-12-08
 
  
 
Your ripe cynicism is really just IQ rearing it's ugly head.
 
How dare you question concepts like "God's chosen people"? "Infidels"? "The Righteous" and "the cursed.'
 
How dare you question all the wars fought in God's name?
 
How dare you doubt all the children "brides" taken in the name of religion?
 
You heathen!!  God will smite you down!! 


   


Posted: 24 April 2016 07:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
Free2Live
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The priests and temple workers lived off of the believers that brought their animals to be sacrificed upon the altar of throat cutting. Like the religious corporations of today the sheep in fear for their lives pray pay and obey. Instead of divvying up the fatling best first born of the herds we kept up the delusion in the form of time talent energy, tithes and other financial offerings. In times past, followers fattened up the leaders just as well as it continues now. Thou shalt not kill... unless the churches get to reap the best part of the butchery. Oh, and yes thou shalt not kill unless you command danite or council of fifty forces. Body guards and killers for bff's keep the splatter off of the leaders garments. There is so much to be inferred and methodologically attached to slaughter. Respect for human kind or earthly creation? Hell no. Just worship the controllers pulling the levers and strings behind the curtain.
  
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Posted: 28 April 2016 06:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
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FreeLive:
The priests and temple workers lived off of the believers that brought their animals to be sacrificed upon the altar of throat cutting. Like the religious corporations of today the sheep in fear for their lives pray pay and obey. Instead of divvying up the fatling best first born of the herds we kept up the delusion in the form of time talent energy, tithes and other financial offerings. In times past, followers fattened up the leaders just as well as it continues now. Thou shalt not kill... unless the churches get to reap the best part of the butchery. Oh, and yes thou shalt not kill unless you command danite or council of fifty forces. Body guards and killers for bff's keep the splatter off of the leaders garments. There is so much to be inferred and methodologically attached to slaughter. Respect for human kind or earthly creation? Hell no. Just worship the controllers pulling the levers and strings behind the curtain.
  
 
 You do have a way with words--Free2Live.  Very true.
 Signature
I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


            
 
 ‹‹ What might the Church look like in the future?        Why do you think the Witnesses never recanted their testimonies? ››  
 
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 Mormon GA about the First Vision: "We have always been at war with Eastasia."
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 Jeff Holland in Tempe "furious with people who leave"
by Jon Marshall
Soon to be ex-mormon Tyler Glenn (of Neon Trees) Trashes Church in New Video
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What Is The Most Offensive Thing You Have Heard/Read Come Out Of The Mouth Of A Profit Or A GA?
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Conference Mormonism vs The Rest of the Year Mormonism
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Pope Condems Pedofillia. Too Bad Mormon Leaders Do Not Have Courage To
by Strong Free & Thankful
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Science Hits the W of W Below The Belt--Again!
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Dan Dennett on the "Faith" card
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The temple taught me the value of apostasy
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My sister escaped and she's poking the hornet nest
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Thanks for the slaughter, God
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Richard Turley of Swedish Rescue fame
by Quartersawn
Why do you think the Witnesses never recanted their testimonies?
by LostInParadise
The Several Facets of Truth
by son of perdition
Hornet's nest
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My sister escaped and she’s poking the hornet nest  
Posted: 13 April 2016 07:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
Avatar
Morethanmo
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My sister officially declared to my parents that she's not going to church. She also told them she doesn't want her kids there either. It's a big step. 
 
Now she's being open and honest online about her disdain for the mistreatment of women and LGBT in mormonism. She's poking our conservative family hornet nest with a stick. It's fun to watch.   
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__________________________________________

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
~Epicurus
__________________________________________


   


Posted: 13 April 2016 08:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Winyan
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Good for her! Let us know how it goes.  

   


Posted: 14 April 2016 04:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
former victim
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Sure is nice to have a little of your family on your side isn't it? Probably make a good tag team working together too.... 

   


Posted: 14 April 2016 09:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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former victim:
Sure is nice to have a little of your family on your side isn't it? Probably make a good tag team working together too....
 
 It's more of a revolution!
 
 Signature
__________________________________________

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
~Epicurus
__________________________________________


   


Posted: 14 April 2016 10:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
David Jason
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viva the revolution
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Posted: 19 April 2016 08:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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DJ  --  ditto! 

   


Posted: 28 April 2016 01:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Aleut
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Morethanmo:
My sister officially declared to my parents that she's not going to church. She also told them she doesn't want her kids there either. It's a big step. 
 
Now she's being open and honest online about her disdain for the mistreatment of women and LGBT in mormonism. She's poking our conservative family hornet nest with a stick. It's fun to watch.   
  
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“I don’t object to the concept of a deity, but I’m baffled by the notion of one that takes attendance.”—Amy Farrah Fowler, The Big Bang Theory
“For the record, I do have genitals. They’re functional and aesthetically pleasing.”—Sheldon Cooper, The Big Bang Theory
All comments, statements, opinions, suggestions, and information expressed, or quotes cited, represent the exclusive viewpoint of Aleut at that point in time and are NOT meant to compel or represent agreement by the reader. Aleut will not be liable for any errors, omissions, or any losses, injuries, or damages arising from its display or use.


   


Posted: 29 April 2016 07:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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Morethanmo:
My sister officially declared to my parents that she's not going to church. She also told them she doesn't want her kids there either. It's a big step. 
 
Now she's being open and honest online about her disdain for the mistreatment of women and LGBT in mormonism. She's poking our conservative family hornet nest with a stick. It's fun to watch.   
 
A good way to get a buzz...
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Science is a way to call the bluff of those who only pretend to knowledge. If we’re true to its values, it can tell us when we’re being lied to. It provides a mid-course correction to our mistakes. - Carl Sagan


   


            
 
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Soon to be ex-mormon Tyler Glenn (of Neon Trees) Trashes Church in New Video
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What Is The Most Offensive Thing You Have Heard/Read Come Out Of The Mouth Of A Profit Or A GA?
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The big J in G's
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Conference Mormonism vs The Rest of the Year Mormonism
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Pope Condems Pedofillia. Too Bad Mormon Leaders Do Not Have Courage To
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I'm officially out
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Science Hits the W of W Below The Belt--Again!
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What might the Church look like in the future?
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Dan Dennett on the "Faith" card
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The temple taught me the value of apostasy
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My sister escaped and she's poking the hornet nest
by Bruce A Holt
Thanks for the slaughter, God
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Why do you think the Witnesses never recanted their testimonies?
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The temple taught me the value of apostasy  
Posted: 29 April 2016 12:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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LostInParadise
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I probably shouldn't share my thoughts this late at night, but I was thinking about Eve. [Side note, why is it that Lucifer helps out so much and teaches so many important ideas in the temple, if he's such a bad guy?]
 
When Lucifer offers Eve the "forbidden" fruit, she dares to consider a life that is different than the one she currently knows. She learns that she can have more truth and value and beauty than she ever knew in her seemingly perfect world (can't know joy without sorrow, etc). The newer films really depict this conscious decision to "transgress" as a means of progress -- not as a result of deceit, but of understanding.
 
Eve knows it will be painful and scary; she knows it will be hard. But with her new understanding, she knows it's really the only choice. So she bites the apple from the tree of knowledge! She doesn't even know if Adam will follow her, but she does it for herself, and then she begs him to follow.
 
They are forcibly cut off from their whole world, and have to forge a new life with pain, sorrow, ugliness, fear, and hard work -- but with more joy, beauty, peace, and satisfaction than they'd ever known in their previous state.
 
I'm slow, but I catch on eventually: I'm Eve! I'm being cast out of the supposedly perfect garden into a world of beauty and joy that can only be found by enduring the pain, sorrow, and loneliness that follows every apostate. I hope my wife will listen and follow me like Adam, but I have to choose for myself.
 
I can't believe how much the temple has taught me since going apostate.
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Posted: 29 April 2016 07:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized
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Interesting. My former stake prez insisted that the temple was all about Eve. Maybe he was on to something!
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Posted: 29 April 2016 08:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Swearing Elder
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Matter Unorganized:
Interesting. My former stake prez insisted that the temple was all about Eve. Maybe he was on to something!
 
I think he's got his movies mixed up!
 
 
 
 
 
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Palmetto PostMormons Chapter Page | Swearing Elders Blog


   


Posted: 29 April 2016 08:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized
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Swearing Elder:
Matter Unorganized:
Interesting. My former stake prez insisted that the temple was all about Eve. Maybe he was on to something!
 
I think he's got his movies mixed up!
 
 
 
 
 
 
I know, right? I was thinking the same thing! 
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You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler


   


Posted: 29 April 2016 08:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Morethanmo
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Swearing Elder:
Matter Unorganized:
Interesting. My former stake prez insisted that the temple was all about Eve. Maybe he was on to something!
 
I think he's got his movies mixed up!
 
 
 
 
 
 OMG!! I love that movie!!
 
 Signature
__________________________________________

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
~Epicurus
__________________________________________


   


            
 
 ‹‹ The big J in G’s        Soon to be ex-mormon Tyler Glenn (of Neon Trees) Trashes Church in New Video ››  
 
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 Mormon GA about the First Vision: "We have always been at war with Eastasia."
by Jon Marshall
 Jeff Holland in Tempe "furious with people who leave"
by Jon Marshall
Soon to be ex-mormon Tyler Glenn (of Neon Trees) Trashes Church in New Video
by Jon Marshall
What Is The Most Offensive Thing You Have Heard/Read Come Out Of The Mouth Of A Profit Or A GA?
by Free2Live
The big J in G's
by Tessa
Conference Mormonism vs The Rest of the Year Mormonism
by Free2Live
Pope Condems Pedofillia. Too Bad Mormon Leaders Do Not Have Courage To
by Strong Free & Thankful
I'm officially out
by Free2Live
Science Hits the W of W Below The Belt--Again!
by Strong Free & Thankful
St. Judas the Traitor 1st Ward - Meetup - Sunday, May 1st, 10:00am at Harmons (Draper, UT) - ***New photo at bottom of thread***
by BITE ME
Portland Oregon Ex-Mormon Meetup - May 15
by LessMon
What might the Church look like in the future?
by Smitty
Dan Dennett on the "Faith" card
by Celestial Wedgie
The temple taught me the value of apostasy
by Morethanmo
My sister escaped and she's poking the hornet nest
by Bruce A Holt
Thanks for the slaughter, God
by Strong Free & Thankful
Richard Turley of Swedish Rescue fame
by Quartersawn
Why do you think the Witnesses never recanted their testimonies?
by LostInParadise
The Several Facets of Truth
by son of perdition
Hornet's nest
by Bruce A Holt 

   http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/42268/




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2015 Conference
"LEAVING A LEGACY"
October 16-18
Doubletree Suites
SLC, Utah




















 


Financial Report for 2011 to Date

Financial Report for 2010 to Date

Financial Report for 2009

Twin Falls Newspaper Article

Twin Falls Billboard

Financial Report for 2009 to Date




The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]

Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]

Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]



 Summer Schedule
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Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series- March 6th, 2016 Author Dave Nelson
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Open House Meetup: 3/19/16
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Train ride and picnic Meetup: 2/27/16
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Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
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Dan Dennett on the “Faith” card  
Posted: 22 April 2016 01:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
Avatar
wesmanlv
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What a great video this is for outlining what i think is the perfect response for many mormons who think they are right just because thaie crusty old prophets say they are.
 
What do you think?
 
This dialogue deserves close attention and practice for real life encounters with know it all mormons. 
 
 
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLpZnv8Vp-E 


   


Posted: 25 April 2016 05:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
Felix
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 Thanks for sharing this link Westmanlv. Occasionally I have had similar experience where a mormon friend or family member ends a diiscussion about the demerits of the church by bearing their testimony. This signals that the discussion is over because any and all facts I may present are trumped by their superior method of discovering truth.
 
This all reminds me of a quotation I found years ago that I title "MYTH" and have kept because it expresses this phenominum so well.  
 
 "A myth is an idea that while widely believed, is false. In a deeper sense, in the religious sense, a myth serves as an orienting and mobilizing story for a people. The focus in not on the stories relation to reality,but on its function. A story cannot function unless it is believed to be true in the community or the nation. It is not a matter of debate. If some people have the bad taste to question the truth of the sacred story, the keepers of the faith do not enter into debate with them. They ignore them or denounce them as blasphemers." 
 
Or in the case of Mormons they bear their testimonies to end any further discussion because you can't, or shouldn't, argue with their testimony as it makes you look disrespectful. I guess it is also implying that their knowledge or belief is greater than my facts or reason.
 
 


   


Posted: 29 April 2016 12:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Celestial Wedgie
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"I know this because Lucille told me and Lucille is always right."

It DOES feel that way a lot of times.


   


            
 
 ‹‹ I’m Proposing a Direct Link Between Mormonism’s Misogyny, a Passive Aggressive Culture and High Porn Use        What might the Church look like in the future? ››  
 
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 Mormon GA about the First Vision: "We have always been at war with Eastasia."
by Jon Marshall
 Jeff Holland in Tempe "furious with people who leave"
by Jon Marshall
Soon to be ex-mormon Tyler Glenn (of Neon Trees) Trashes Church in New Video
by Jon Marshall
What Is The Most Offensive Thing You Have Heard/Read Come Out Of The Mouth Of A Profit Or A GA?
by Free2Live
The big J in G's
by Tessa
Conference Mormonism vs The Rest of the Year Mormonism
by Free2Live
Pope Condems Pedofillia. Too Bad Mormon Leaders Do Not Have Courage To
by Strong Free & Thankful
I'm officially out
by Free2Live
Science Hits the W of W Below The Belt--Again!
by Strong Free & Thankful
St. Judas the Traitor 1st Ward - Meetup - Sunday, May 1st, 10:00am at Harmons (Draper, UT) - ***New photo at bottom of thread***
by BITE ME
Portland Oregon Ex-Mormon Meetup - May 15
by LessMon
What might the Church look like in the future?
by Smitty
Dan Dennett on the "Faith" card
by Celestial Wedgie
The temple taught me the value of apostasy
by Morethanmo
My sister escaped and she's poking the hornet nest
by Bruce A Holt
Thanks for the slaughter, God
by Strong Free & Thankful
Richard Turley of Swedish Rescue fame
by Quartersawn
Why do you think the Witnesses never recanted their testimonies?
by LostInParadise
The Several Facets of Truth
by son of perdition
Hornet's nest
by Bruce A Holt 

   http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/42255/




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2015 Conference
"LEAVING A LEGACY"
October 16-18
Doubletree Suites
SLC, Utah




















 


Financial Report for 2011 to Date

Financial Report for 2010 to Date

Financial Report for 2009

Twin Falls Newspaper Article

Twin Falls Billboard

Financial Report for 2009 to Date




The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]

Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]

Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]



 Summer Schedule
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
 SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/1)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
Coming up May 1’st 2016 - Kristyn Decker to lecture!
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (4/3)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
Imprompu get-together
[Dead Prophets Soc...] 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (3/6)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series- March 6th, 2016 Author Dave Nelson
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
Open House Meetup: 3/19/16
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
Train ride and picnic Meetup: 2/27/16
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series February 7th, 2016- Joe Rawlins
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
SF Bay Area Super Bowl Party (Feb 7)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
Jan 10th, 2016-Southern Utah PostMormons will present an outstanding lecture combo
[Southern Utah Pos...] 


Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by TheDogLady 
Book of Mormon Tories
by Chris Sexton 
Why I am a Better Mother
by antipsicótica 
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by Barney 
Resignation Letter to My Family
sam2

Post-mormon Roles
sam2

Post-mormon Roles
former victim

The Book of Mormon Musical comes to South Carolina!
Swearing Elder

Resignation Letter to My Family
INRETROSPECT

Resignation Letter to My Family
oneanother

Utah County CALM meetup for November
BlackSheep2

FACEBOOK INFO
Crissy

FACEBOOK INFO
Barn

October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
Starfleet

October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
alvie

Why I am a Better Mother
by aworkinprogress 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
exmoinaz

SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
owned

The Mormon Mask
by Born Free 
Las Vegas Meetup--Jazz in the Park Saturday May 10 6:30PM
onendagus

Resignation Letter to My Family
ShadowSage

Resignation Letter to My Family
ShadowSage

Guru Busters
by Flora4 
Guru Busters
by Flora4 
Resignation Letter to My Family
Hbush1987


            

Home Our Community
Discussion Forums
    · The Community Forum
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What might the Church look like in the future?  
Posted: 22 April 2016 01:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
TheDogLady
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What might The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints look like in the future?
 
If the Church survives at all, what might it look like?
First The Book of Mormon has to go. Or does it? Could it be truthfully brought out as fiction? Could it be used as faith inspiring if it is aknowledged as fiction. Will they still be called "Mormons"
Joseph Smith's failings will HAVE to be recognized.
The difference between the teachings of the "doctrine" and the Bible and Book of Mormon will have to be explored.
The Brethren will have to stop calling themselves "Prophets, seers and revelators" 
What will they be called then?
Could they turn their preaching to Jesus, the Bible and the humanitarian efforts they are so proud of.
They MUST be transparrent about how tithing is spent.
What else can you think of in a world where the Church survives?
 
Perhaps they will dig in and become even more cultish? 
 
 
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Posted: 22 April 2016 04:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
messygoop
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I hope they will be called leeches because of their true parasitic nature. 

   


Posted: 22 April 2016 04:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Winyan
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I think as long as they can keep money coming in they'll just continue to try to be seen as more politically correct. Changing things whenever they can't get away with it any longer. Trying to market themselves as humanitarians and Christians. The rolling stone is really the big green mormon PR machine. 

   


Posted: 23 April 2016 07:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
TheDogLady
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If they tried they could slowly transfer into the Church of Jesus Christ. And leave the Latter Day Saint part out. They could start teaching from the Bible only and abandon the "doctrines" Like a said before they could probably retain the Book of Mormon as "faith inspiring" but fictional and stop trying to prove it's validity. The Book of Abraham and Moses would HAVE to go.
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Posted: 23 April 2016 08:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Jon Marshall
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They will never be able to slide away form the Mormon aspect.
 
The "Essays" are going to be the new Church History.  
 
Isn't great that an organization can totally rewrite its history right in front of us and its members and almost 95% of the members don't bat an eye because they aren't reading them and have been "mentally mechanized" for years to follow every little tidbit that whatever the Church does is to them God given. 
 
The Church will have to show where the money goes and explain it, through some lawsuits that will go all the way up to the Supreme Court.
 
 
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Posted: 23 April 2016 08:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
TheDogLady
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Jon Marshall:
They will never be able to slide away form the Mormon aspect.
 
The "Essays" are going to be the new Church History.  
 
Isn't great that an organization can totally rewrite its history right in front of us and its members and almost 95% of the members don't bat an eye because they aren't reading them and have been "mentally mechanized" for years to follow every little tidbit that whatever the Church does is to them God given. 
 
The Church will have to show where the money goes and explain it, through some lawsuits that will go all the way up to the Supreme Court.
 
 
 
 I absolutely believe that the Church will have to start showing where it's tithe paying members money is going.
That has to happen! 
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Posted: 23 April 2016 11:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
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TheDogLady:
If they tried they could slowly transfer into the Church of Jesus Christ. And leave the Latter Day Saint part out. They could start teaching from the Bible only and abandon the "doctrines" Like a said before they could probably retain the Book of Mormon as "faith inspiring" but fictional and stop trying to prove it's validity. The Book of Abraham and Moses would HAVE to go.
 
 This would be a slow death to them and they know it.  It is difficult enough for other Christian churches to hold on right now.  Without its extra ordinary claims--which are all lies--it has nothing.  As more documentaries, more news articles, more people are knowing the truth--it is a sinking ship.  Ah--but not all is lost!  They are slowly becoming a huge Real Estate conglomerate.  Hopefully, they will make a lot of money so when the time is right and the class action suits come--they can pay us back our tithing.  I want my money back! 
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 23 April 2016 02:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
leftasteen
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Winyan has it right.
 
It's just a big corporation now.  Revenue streams, investments, influence, connections.  
 
We all now know that the Marlborough Man was a big lie, yet they are still sold, and the company goes on. 
 
The pack of lies around the church's foundation and first 150 years will just be de-emphasized and the shear momentum will carry the church for decades.    
 
Think about the scandals the Catholics have survived.
 
Ultimately the LDS church is just like all the other religions that are also hokem and yet have survived, some for centuries.  
 
Where there is cash flow, there is religion. 
 
 


   


Posted: 23 April 2016 04:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
Clarity
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The RLDS branch of the original LDS church has already transitioned from "one and only true church" to "Christian fellowship". Once unassailable teachings such as the first vision are now merely described as spiritual experiences of their founder. They even gave up rlds.org, as part of a complete re-brand decades in the making. http://www.cofchrist.org/ The larger Utah branch of the original LDS church is almost unrecognizable today versus 150 years ago. Gone are the core doctrines of polygamy, Adam-God, and the permanently-cursed seed of Cain. Brigham Young's Mormons would be appalled by the current teachings and might recognize more Mormonism in Hilldale than in Salt Lake City. Likewise, in another 50 years, Mormons may think of doctrines like "God was once a man" as funny things that their grandparents believed. Prejudice against gays will be an "old person bigot" thing. By the end of the century, Mormonism may be more a statement of clean living and brotherhood than a religion. Meanwhile, religiosity in the home market (USA) is steadily decreasing year-over-over and millions of registered Mormons are feeling a lot more comfortable in society as calling themselves more-spiritual-than-religious. The churn rate of people exiting Mormonism through disaffiliation or death continue to shrink the active membership base of the church. And with the exponential worldwide population growth, the percentage of active Mormons vs. world population declines even faster. Some ardent Mormons would say that all of this is evidence that we are approaching a time when the wheat and the chaff will be separated and a smaller number of true believers survive to meet the almighty. Many ardent Mormons believed the same thing about their present time 50 years ago. And 100 years ago. And 150 years ago. Beliefs live on. 

   


Posted: 23 April 2016 04:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
TheDogLady
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Clarity:
The RLDS branch of the original LDS church has already transitioned from "one and only true church" to "Christian fellowship". Once unassailable teachings such as the first vision are now merely described as spiritual experiences of their founder. They even gave up rlds.org, as part of a complete re-brand decades in the making. http://www.cofchrist.org/ The larger Utah branch of the original LDS church is almost unrecognizable today versus 150 years ago. Gone are the core doctrines of polygamy, Adam-God, and the permanently-cursed seed of Cain. Brigham Young's Mormons would be appalled by the current teachings and might recognize more Mormonism in Hilldale than in Salt Lake City. Likewise, in another 50 years, Mormons may think of doctrines like "God was once a man" as funny things that their grandparents believed. Prejudice against gays will be an "old person bigot" thing. By the end of the century, Mormonism may be more a statement of clean living and brotherhood than a religion. Meanwhile, religiosity in the home market (USA) is steadily decreasing year-over-over and millions of registered Mormons are feeling a lot more comfortable in society as calling themselves more-spiritual-than-religious. The churn rate of people exiting Mormonism through disaffiliation or death continue to shrink the active membership base of the church. And with the exponential worldwide population growth, the percentage of active Mormons vs. world population declines even faster. Some ardent Mormons would say that all of this is evidence that we are approaching a time when the wheat and the chaff will be separated and a smaller number of true believers survive to meet the almighty. Many ardent Mormons believed the same thing about their present time 50 years ago. And 100 years ago. And 150 years ago. Beliefs live on.
 
 I think/hope you are right. I am absolutely sure that in several years the musings of Boyd K. Packer and Dallin H. Oaks will be the "they were a product of their time" people. It will be interesting. My best friend who I told about this said, "all I keep thinking is how at the last days even the "very elect" will be deceived. I can only surmise she meant me. I don't think I am "very elect"
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Posted: 24 April 2016 08:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
finex
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I believe it is more likely that the membership material that will be left within the ranks of TSCC will be the hard core radical TBMs. While shrinking this will lead to radicalization of TSCC in the long run and I believe we are already seeing sings of this as people are being excommunicated for asking questions and discriminatory policies being enforced. So I think the future of TSCC will look more like that of JW cult, members actively shunning exmembers and isolating themselves from the "wordly". 

   


Posted: 25 April 2016 05:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized
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Clarity:
The RLDS branch of the original LDS church has already transitioned from "one and only true church" to "Christian fellowship". Once unassailable teachings such as the first vision are now merely described as spiritual experiences of their founder. They even gave up rlds.org, as part of a complete re-brand decades in the making. http://www.cofchrist.org/ The larger Utah branch of the original LDS church is almost unrecognizable today versus 150 years ago. Gone are the core doctrines of polygamy, Adam-God, and the permanently-cursed seed of Cain. Brigham Young's Mormons would be appalled by the current teachings and might recognize more Mormonism in Hilldale than in Salt Lake City. Likewise, in another 50 years, Mormons may think of doctrines like "God was once a man" as funny things that their grandparents believed. Prejudice against gays will be an "old person bigot" thing. By the end of the century, Mormonism may be more a statement of clean living and brotherhood than a religion. Meanwhile, religiosity in the home market (USA) is steadily decreasing year-over-over and millions of registered Mormons are feeling a lot more comfortable in society as calling themselves more-spiritual-than-religious. The churn rate of people exiting Mormonism through disaffiliation or death continue to shrink the active membership base of the church. And with the exponential worldwide population growth, the percentage of active Mormons vs. world population declines even faster. Some ardent Mormons would say that all of this is evidence that we are approaching a time when the wheat and the chaff will be separated and a smaller number of true believers survive to meet the almighty. Many ardent Mormons believed the same thing about their present time 50 years ago. And 100 years ago. And 150 years ago. Beliefs live on.
 
I logged in to say something like this about the RLDS/CoC. The only thing I would add to this is that as the RLDS/CoC gradually distanced itself from practices similar to those in the Utah church, they lost a large percentage of their membership (I have heard as much as 50% but have been unable to substantiate this number). They now present themselves as a mainstream Christian church, and do not call themselves the only true church.
 
The Utah church would never do anything which could result in a large loss of membership. If they did, it would have to be so gradual that members would not notice unless they were paying attention. But how could the members not notice if the church dropped the claim that the BoM was true, or that the BoA was not true? What if the church dropped the endowment, or finally dropped the designation as God's one true church? These things would not bode well.
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Posted: 25 April 2016 06:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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guywithearrings50
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leftasteen:
Winyan has it right.
 
It's just a big corporation now.  Revenue streams, investments, influence, connections.  
 
We all now know that the Marlborough Man was a big lie, yet they are still sold, and the company goes on. 
 
The pack of lies around the church's foundation and first 150 years will just be de-emphasized and the shear momentum will carry the church for decades.    
 
Think about the scandals the Catholics have survived.
 
Ultimately the LDS church is just like all the other religions that are also hokem and yet have survived, some for centuries.  
 
Where there is cash flow, there is religion. 
 
 
 
 I agree wholeheartedly! As long as the money is flowing the church will survive. 
 
It's just sad that a church this rich could help so many people both here in North America and elsewhere in the world, while true Christian organizations struggle for money to help the poor.  


   


Posted: 25 April 2016 06:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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maynardg
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Every party needs a pooper that's why we invited you  --  party pooper!
You don't know how much I wish that the morg would self-destruct in front of all the TBMorgbots  --  but I don't think it's going to happen.  My reasoning:  Oaks, Holland and especially Bednar are going to take up the slack left by the death of those other penishood old farts!  IMVHO, Bednar is an *^$hole extraordinaire!  The morg has an advanced PR team lead by that PR guy who recently gave a piece in the SL Tribune that I'm sure had morgbots literally drooling spiritually!  Whenever something juicy comes along, I think  --  YES!  --  this is going to cause the HORSESHIT to hit the fan and it turns out like the IRS scandal or Bengazi  --  like some guys and sex  --  all talk and no action!  The TBMorgbots are so entrenched in their morgbot comas, it would take pinnochio joe  coming back and personally telling them that it is all a bunch of HORSESHIT!  And IMVHO, I believe that they wouldn't believe him.
But despite it all  --  I have hope  --  you gotta have hope. And I hope in what's left of my lifetime. I get to see something bring the morg and its profits, sears and roebucks to their collective knees  --  how happy will be my day  --  break out the champagne!


   


Posted: 25 April 2016 07:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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maynardg:
Every party needs a pooper that's why we invited you  --  party pooper!
You don't know how much I wish that the morg would self-destruct in front of all the TBMorgbots  --  but I don't think it's going to happen.  My reasoning:  Oaks, Holland and especially Bednar are going to take up the slack left by the death of those other penishood old farts!  IMVHO, Bednar is an *^$hole extraordinaire!  The morg has an advanced PR team lead by that PR guy who recently gave a piece in the SL Tribune that I'm sure had morgbots literally drooling spiritually!  Whenever something juicy comes along, I think  --  YES!  --  this is going to cause the HORSESHIT to hit the fan and it turns out like the IRS scandal or Bengazi  --  like some guys and sex  --  all talk and no action!  The TBMorgbots are so entrenched in their morgbot comas, it would take pinnochio joe  coming back and personally telling them that it is all a bunch of HORSESHIT!  And IMVHO, I believe that they wouldn't believe him.
But despite it all  --  I have hope  --  you gotta have hope. And I hope in what's left of my lifetime. I get to see something bring the morg and its profits, sears and roebucks to their collective knees  --  how happy will be my day  --  break out the champagne!
 
Again, Brother Maynard G. Krebbs hits the proverbial nail on the head.
 
One of my biggest frustrations with DW is that she will take the word of 15 fossils in SLC, none of whom she has ever met, over anything I say. She has known me for over 20 years, but I can't hold a candle to them. My parents and most of my siblings would be the same way, and I imagine it's the same for most TBMs. The hero worship and rockstar status these guys get is appalling. It is totally cult-like. 
 
The church can face down any crisis by trotting out one of the apostles to say "This is the way it is" and the membership will lap it up and claim "Isn't this wonderful, that we get the words of a living prophet/apostle to guide us," completely oblivious to the big picture. Monson could get caught with his pants down, Viagra™ in hand, and a "revelation" would be forthcoming to make it all better.
 
Many of the things which led to my dissafection were dismissed as anti-mormon lies. When the essays came out I had a sense of vindication, but it was short lived. Now the reaction I get is "Read the essays, it's all explained." It has gone from lies and attacks to reasonably explained in just a couple of years. The church is made of teflon.
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You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler


   


Posted: 25 April 2016 08:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
David Jason
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I'm really pretty unsure how it will play out. I see a lot of older mormons getting even more strict, but younger mormons are more progressive. The only thing I think will surely happen is that it will get smaller. It will move more and more to look like Scientology where it has huge real estate investments a couple token members and a bunch of people bound up in a guilt ridden need for the organization to provide them the antidote. I only hope my wife leaves someday. I think my children will leave someday (since I provide them some space in a compromise with my wife) and generally if your parents don't force you to be Mormon, I think it's unlikely they'll retain belief through their teen years.
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Posted: 25 April 2016 08:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
Free2Live
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Matter Unorganized:
maynardg:
Every party needs a pooper that's why we invited you  --  party pooper!
You don't know how much I wish that the morg would self-destruct in front of all the TBMorgbots  --  but I don't think it's going to happen.  My reasoning:  Oaks, Holland and especially Bednar are going to take up the slack left by the death of those other penishood old farts!  IMVHO, Bednar is an *^$hole extraordinaire!  The morg has an advanced PR team lead by that PR guy who recently gave a piece in the SL Tribune that I'm sure had morgbots literally drooling spiritually!  Whenever something juicy comes along, I think  --  YES!  --  this is going to cause the HORSESHIT to hit the fan and it turns out like the IRS scandal or Bengazi  --  like some guys and sex  --  all talk and no action!  The TBMorgbots are so entrenched in their morgbot comas, it would take pinnochio joe  coming back and personally telling them that it is all a bunch of HORSESHIT!  And IMVHO, I believe that they wouldn't believe him.
But despite it all  --  I have hope  --  you gotta have hope. And I hope in what's left of my lifetime. I get to see something bring the morg and its profits, sears and roebucks to their collective knees  --  how happy will be my day  --  break out the champagne!
 
Again, Brother Maynard G. Krebbs hits the proverbial nail on the head.
 
One of my biggest frustrations with DW is that she will take the word of 15 fossils in SLC, none of whom she has ever met, over anything I say. She has known me for over 20 years, but I can't hold a candle to them. My parents and most of my siblings would be the same way, and I imagine it's the same for most TBMs. The hero worship and rockstar status these guys get is appalling. It is totally cult-like. 
 
The church can face down any crisis by trotting out one of the apostles to say "This is the way it is" and the membership will lap it up and claim "Isn't this wonderful, that we get the words of a living prophet/apostle to guide us," completely oblivious to the big picture. Monson could get caught with his pants down, Viagra™ in hand, and a "revelation" would be forthcoming to make it all better.
 
Many of the things which led to my dissafection were dismissed as anti-mormon lies. When the essays came out I had a sense of vindication, but it was short lived. Now the reaction I get is "Read the essays, it's all explained." It has gone from lies and attacks to reasonably explained in just a couple of years. The church is made of teflon.
 
 Dear MU,
your response here to maynard addressed the brainwashed reality of the membership of the lds cult. I at this time I feel the need to 'trot' out a name that postmo folks have become accustomed for me to point out. ___ ____ __ ______. This particular internet business savvy man did many things in trying to help his cause including a study on why people leave the church.
http://www.whymormonsquestion.org/2012/05/21/understanding-mormon-disbelief-march-2012-results-and-analysis/  
This study was beneficial to both the active member that had questions about doctrine, mistreatment or doubt in general. This study was "useful" to the cult and in part this man should get some credit in helping shape the church into a more focussed cult with a better control manipulative game plan.
 
I am worthy to say that I never donated to his business. Especially I am glad to have not answered the inner feelings of guilt for not paying his business.  Really here I am offering another perspective of an opportunist that was used by the church until his value was spent...then the cult exxed him.  
 
The essays do reinforce the cults grip on individual minds.
 
A big tent is useful afterall. STAYlds.
 
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Posted: 25 April 2016 04:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
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bradspencer74
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Nothing will happen to the Church.  That is the sadistic beauty of "continual" revelation in a hierarchy.  They can change anything they want, whenever they want, and the VAST majority of the sheeple TBMs will eat it up, and the social mormons stay in for family reasons or ease of living in the morridor.  
 
Just consider the sheer volume of changes to LDS doctrines that have happened over the last 170 years.  Joseph Smith or Brigham Young would not recognize this thing - would probably condemn them all as apostate - because it has changed so much.  Yet, the membership stays.
 
Blacks with the priesthood after 150 years of saying it was impossible - No effect.
Polygamy changes when it is in LDS scripture and the pronouncement of "prophets" that to not practice it would condemn the people - Slightest effect.
Continual rewrites of the Book of Mormon - No effect. 
Changes to the unchangable temple ceremonies - No effect.
Deliberate de-emphasis of Joseph Smith - No effect. 
Blatent lies on television from GBH - No effect.
 
 I can go on and on, but Mormons believe because they WANT to believe it.  It makes them feel special.  It supplies basic human emotional needs to those who do not want to face facts.   Look at Roman Catholicism - at least 1700 years in existence with doctrinal changes that make Mormons look like zealot defenders of their religion.  Yet, there are over a billion of them.  They very nearly rewrote their entire religious practice with Vatican II, yet nothing changed.  Because Catholics WANT to believe or they are social Catholics.
 
 
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Posted: 25 April 2016 07:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
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Yinyang
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duplicate post deleted
 
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Being philosophically and behaviorally consistent is hard work.
Examining the origins of your beliefs is even harder.


And it did not come to pass.


   


Posted: 25 April 2016 07:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]   

   
 
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Yinyang
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TheDogLady:
Clarity:
 I think/hope you are right. I am absolutely sure that in several years the musings of Boyd K. Packer and Dallin H. Oaks will be the "they were a product of their time" people. It will be interesting. My best friend who I told about this said, "all I keep thinking is how at the last days even the "very elect" will be deceived. I can only surmise she meant me. I don't think I am "very elect"
 
Hi DogLady,
 
The "very elect will be deceived" is a thought stopping technique AKA brainwashing.
 
Here's a response that you can keep in your back pocket:
 
You could reply with a question, "If the very elect are deceived then who will be left?"
 
You will probably see the smoke come out her ears from the mental exertion. 
 
    
 
 Signature
Being philosophically and behaviorally consistent is hard work.
Examining the origins of your beliefs is even harder.


And it did not come to pass.


   


Posted: 26 April 2016 03:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]   

   
 
former victim
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Apparently,  organized religions fill or provide for needs. When the needs are not fulfilled, provided for, or met, they wane or diminish in influence. People with acquired knowledge often learn to live without any in their life. 

   


Posted: 26 April 2016 04:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]   

   
 
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guywithearrings50
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bradspencer:
Nothing will happen to the Church.  That is the sadistic beauty of "continual" revelation in a hierarchy.  They can change anything they want, whenever they want, and the VAST majority of the sheeple TBMs will eat it up, and the social mormons stay in for family reasons or ease of living in the morridor.  
 
Just consider the sheer volume of changes to LDS doctrines that have happened over the last 170 years.  Joseph Smith or Brigham Young would not recognize this thing - would probably condemn them all as apostate - because it has changed so much.  Yet, the membership stays.
 
Blacks with the priesthood after 150 years of saying it was impossible - No effect.
Polygamy changes when it is in LDS scripture and the pronouncement of "prophets" that to not practice it would condemn the people - Slightest effect.
Continual rewrites of the Book of Mormon - No effect. 
Changes to the unchangable temple ceremonies - No effect.
Deliberate de-emphasis of Joseph Smith - No effect. 
Blatent lies on television from GBH - No effect.
 
 I can go on and on, but Mormons believe because they WANT to believe it.  It makes them feel special.  It supplies basic human emotional needs to those who do not want to face facts.   Look at Roman Catholicism - at least 1700 years in existence with doctrinal changes that make Mormons look like zealot defenders of their religion.  Yet, there are over a billion of them.  They very nearly rewrote their entire religious practice with Vatican II, yet nothing changed.  Because Catholics WANT to believe or they are social Catholics.
 
 
 this is so true, this is why it's so hard to convince them that the church is false. They want to believe and and NEED to believe it. That's true about feeling special as well. Mormon certainly feel special. I know I did when I attended. Like everyone who wasn't a member was just a little bit "thick" like 'why don't they get it?"
 


   


Posted: 26 April 2016 04:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized:
 
The Utah church would never do anything which could result in a large loss of membership. If they did, it would have to be so gradual that members would not notice unless they were paying attention. But how could the members not notice if the church dropped the claim that the BoM was true, or that the BoA was not true? What if the church dropped the endowment, or finally dropped the designation as God's one true church? These things would not bode well.
 
Good point, Matter.  bradspencer74 and other also made very good points.
 
In any scenario, the active membership of the LDS church is almost certainly going to continue to shrink.  The church may go the Scientology route, building more and more vast wealth while its active membership becomes even smaller and more "elect".  Or the church may continue to change its teachings like it has regularly done so in the past to become more and more mainstream.
 
Based on the last 185 years of then-unthinkable changes in Mormon belief, we should expect to see more unthinkable changes in the future.  Just look at the last few decades...  A few decades ago, the Book of Abraham was translated by Joseph Smith; now it is merely inspired.  A few decades ago, Native Americans were super-special Jewish people; now they merely may have inter-married with a few.  A few decades ago, blacks would absolutely never gain the priesthood; now they're featured in Mormon advertisements.  A few decades ago, the endowment was like a blood oath and blood atonement was a thing; now...not so much. 
 
Today it seems somewhat-unthinkable that the LDS church would give up its "homosexuality is a grievous sin" stance--but as more and more families accept their homosexual children and cousins this too may become a palatable and "inspired" doctrine change.  Other doctrines like "god was once a man; one day we may become gods" are already on their way out.
 
As Matter eloquently stated, the only three unassailable beliefs that will be "cause a civil war" hard to shake are the "one true church" tenets: that Joseph Smith was a prophet; that the Book of Mormon is scripture like the bible; and that the mainstream LDS Church is God's "one true church". 
 
In the end, the LDS church will decide to either follow in the footsteps of the Smiths' LDS branch (RLDS) and become mainstream...or maintain a more Scientology-like path.  Based on the last few decades of dropping core tenets to become more mainstream combined with the vast wealth-building which is reducing the church's dependence on tithing funds, shrinking and remaining the "one true church" is a very valid option.  But another more Mormony option is to drop more of the controversial and discriminatory beliefs, reduce expenses by combining churches and temples into single buildings (like was already done in New York City), and maintain only the minimal set of beliefs to inspire member acquisition (missionary work) and growth-revenue generation (tithing).


   


Posted: 26 April 2016 08:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]   

   
 
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The Utah church would never do anything which could result in a large loss of membership. ... snip ...
 
Good point, Matter.  bradspencer74 and other also made very good points.
  
In any scenario, the active membership of the LDS church is almost certainly going to continue to shrink.  The church may go the Scientology route, building more and more vast wealth while its active membership becomes even smaller and more "elect".  Or the church may continue to change its teachings like it has regularly done
 so in the past to become more and more mainstream.
... circumcised for space ... 
  But another more Mormony option is to drop more of the controversial and discriminatory beliefs, reduce expenses by combining churches and temples into single buildings (like was already done in New York City), and maintain only the minimal set of beliefs to inspire member acquisition (missionary work) and growth-revenue generation (tithing).
 
 I could buy into this propensity with regard to the older generations dieing off leaving behind younger ideas that would then need to be targetted for the donation base. As long as the 'cradle to grave' tithe paying TBM's are the majority there will be no change on a large scale.
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Posted: 28 April 2016 07:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]   

   
 
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 29 April 2016 10:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]   

   
 
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They need to open the financial records and show everyone where the money really goes.  Also, either totally dump the BoM or like was mentioned before admit that it is a work of fiction and let the people decide whether to believe it or not.  If they would accept the Bible as truth then they would have a better chance of survival, although this country seems to be slowly steering away from religion as the millennials get older.  One other thing they need to do is get some fresh blood in the leadership and quit making the next old guy the president.  They need to stop making it all based on senority and start actually electing the leadership like the RC church does.
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Science Hits the W of W Below The Belt—Again!  
Posted: 30 April 2016 07:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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  http://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/coffee-wine-keep-microbes-in-your-gut-healthy-scientists-say/
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 01 May 2016 04:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Awesome news. 
I have a friend whose spouse has a very weakened immune system and just know he would benefit from coffee and wine, big time. He does try to get some marjuana vapes when he can, but UT is dragging its feet on helping those with m
 
So many people overweight and with diabetes in UT. It could be better if they only had a prophet to tell them....or if they'd read the research and take their blinders off. 
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Posted: 01 May 2016 06:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Quartersawn:
Awesome news. 
I have a friend whose spouse has a very weakened immune system and just know he would benefit from coffee and wine, big time. He does try to get some marjuana vapes when he can, but UT is dragging its feet on helping those with m
 
So many people overweight and with diabetes in UT. It could be better if they only had a prophet to tell them....or if they'd read the research and take their blinders off. 
 
 Doesn't it seem the "profits" are always the last to know when it comes to health?  My Dr recently told me a serving a real saurkraut (the kind in the health food stores fridge section) has a trillion of good flora.  Might help your friend since our good bacteria is 70--80% of our immune system.  Bet he would enjoy coffee and wine as well.  UT is trying keep the faithful happy and look like the church is in charge.  I know--it stinks--just like the church.
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


            
 
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I’m officially out  
Posted: 28 April 2016 09:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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My wife and I finally got a respnse to our resignation letters.  We have not attended church in 30 plus years.  This is the third time over the years we have written resignation letters.  I guess the third time is a charm.  These response letters from the church are not signed by anyone. The letters close with, "Sincerely, Confidential records".  Does anyone know why there is no official signature from an actual human being?
 
We are thrilled.  
 
 


   


Posted: 28 April 2016 12:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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CONGRATS!!.  Secrecy! 

   


Posted: 28 April 2016 12:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Celebrate, celebrate, dance to the music!!! 

   


Posted: 28 April 2016 01:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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    Congratulations!  Ain't freedom sweet!
 
 
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Posted: 28 April 2016 02:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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No signatures? Maybe they've had to automate the process because of volume? 
 
Perhaps they could close with, "No actual testimonies were harmed in the processing of your resignation."


   


Posted: 28 April 2016 02:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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The truth will set you free :)
 
Maybe no one wants to take responsibility for signing anymore. Either way, you're out!


   


Posted: 29 April 2016 04:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Congratulations are in order for your faithless diligence in following through. My guess on the robo signing concern is the time involved attending to so many recent requests, such as yours. TSCc is a business, and time equates with $ for the LD$ Corporation. No sense throwing money away on a lost cause folks. Makes good business sense to me.
 
It's to your benefit, and their loss any way I look at it.


   


Posted: 29 April 2016 05:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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A belated "Congratulations!" You were officialy out when you sent the first request, at least according to US law. 
 
Those letters are so cold, it would bother Elsa.
 
Don't feel left out that you didn't get a signature, no one claims responsibility for "church doctrine" on the websites essays that no one cares enough about to read. I know they were written by a group of historians, but even they didn't sign it. The Q15 don't have enough balls combined to put their names on it. 
 
I don't think we're really removed from the records of the church, and I feel they still count us as members in the fictional 15M member count. The only thing that happens is a checkmark is placed in the scarlet letter "A for apostacy" column that says you resigned, thus alerting any church authority to see it and take special actions should you desire to renew your magic club membership.  
 
It's a scam and they treat everyone who leaves like scum.  
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Posted: 29 April 2016 07:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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I am so glad you got officially removed.  It's so important to have all God's paperwork in order and up to date.
 
We wouldn't want people to accidentally be let into the Celestial Kindom because the paperwork was not updated.  What if someone got more of God's love than they deserve based on a technicality? If their transcrips were incorrect, they might be allowed to 'celestial marry' a bunch of women, and it would be all sin - in heaven no less.  
 
 I hope the General Authorities can improve their recordkeeping process flow here on Earth.  If it took 3 times for you to be removed, how many other eternal mistakes have been overlooked?  What if the racial classifications are wrong? How will God know who is cursed and who is not?  What about tithing records? Could church clerical workers be taking bribes to change the tithing records? God might let souls in the wrong level of Heaven based on faked records. Or the Lord might burn the wrong Saints!! Could their servers have been breached? Could unworthy souls be hacking their way into the Celestial Kindom?
 
These lists, and certificates, and paper records are so important to God's eternal plan for us.  Perhaps the "trinity" should become a holy "quadrinity" with the addition of a "Holy Chief Information Angel" to make sure all the data files reflect a person's true level of worthiness.  


   


Posted: 29 April 2016 07:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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  Thanks to all of you on Postmormon.  I appreciate all of you who have taken the time and effort to respond to my comments.  I thought my response letter would be signed with a photocopy of  some leader's rubber stamp signature.  I guess no LDS leader wants the responsibility of signing apostasy letters. 
I really  love that I can say, "I am not a member of the Mormon church".  


   


Posted: 29 April 2016 08:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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Posted: 29 April 2016 08:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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son of perdition:
 
  Thanks to all of you on Postmormon.  I appreciate all of you who have taken the time and effort to respond to my comments.  I thought my response letter would be signed with a photocopy of  some leader's rubber stamp signature.  I guess no LDS leader wants the responsibility of signing apostasy letters. 
I really  love that I can say, "I am not a member of the Mormon church".  
 
It's funny how ordinances are required for gaining membership in the church, but resignation is just an administrative action. This, despite Membership Records telling resigning people in its form letter that it is an "ecclesiastical matter" and is being referred to local leaders. It's like one final lie from the morg. It is NOT an ecclesiastical matter. It's a goddamn rubber stamp matter. No ordinance, no interview (although they often try to foist one upon the individual), and by the law of the land, the instant a drone in COB opens the letter, you are no longer a mormon. Why they feel the need to drag it out is beyond me.
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Posted: 29 April 2016 11:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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leftasteen:
I am so glad you got officially removed.  It's so important to have all God's paperwork in order and up to date.
 
We wouldn't want people to accidentally be let into the Celestial Kindom because the paperwork was not updated.  What if someone got more of God's love than they deserve based on a technicality? If their transcrips were incorrect, they might be allowed to 'celestial marry' a bunch of women, and it would be all sin - in heaven no less.  
 
 [snip]
 
 
There's also a   as I realize that, oh great: now we gotta change the secret handshake and oaths so that those damn apostates can't fake their way past the veil.
 
No wonder the LDS church is so hard on deserters. Every time someone leaves they have to come up with a whole new set a sacred (not secret) combinations. It's such a hassle! Why can't you just keep your sacred covenants, ya' damn infidels!
 
 
 


   


Posted: 29 April 2016 09:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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Congratulations Son Of Perdition! Having an acknowledgment does give peace of mind as well as proof in writing that they agree to stop bothering you. Inactivity just is not the same as resignation. Being out and recognized as out alleviates much mental synaptic workouts. The fight is over and life can reconstruct with chosen blueprints instead of the original Ford car. You can have any color you want as long as it is black. No dude with a title has any say in in life decisions. Fear dissipates from having to deal with them into the wonders of real agency in charting the rest of life. Closure happens as ones mind is not distracted by outside agendas. Habits formed are questioned in terms of why do I think or do this or that? Being officially out is worth it! May the farce no longer be with you.
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Posted: 01 May 2016 06:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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 Black is my favorite color.  
 
It feels so satisfying to get "resigning from The Church off my "fucket list".


   


Posted: 01 May 2016 08:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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son of perdition:
 Black is my favorite color.  
 
It feels so satisfying to get "resigning from The Church off my "fucket list".
 
 My list is short. 
 
#1 Get my money back! 
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Pope Condems Pedofillia.  Too Bad Mormon Leaders Do Not Have Courage To  
Posted: 01 May 2016 06:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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 Mormon church leaders should be condeming pedophilia, especially considering that Joseph Smith's bad example of pedophilia is still causing young girls to be raped in the FLDS today as well as some individual followers as well.  They should speak out against what Joseph Smith, Bring em Young, Heber Kimball and other church leaders did--to stop it from happening today.  It would be a start. Guess we have to count on the Pope.  
 
https://www.yahoo.com/news/pope-condemns-pedophilia-details-girls-death-shock-italy-154230841.html
 
 
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


            
 
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Conference Mormonism vs The Rest of the Year Mormonism  
Posted: 01 May 2016 08:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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For the most part while an active member and especially as a missionary I really did like conference talks. I always remember thinking how refreshing the messages were. However, at the time, while I noticed that conference was "different" I never really asked myself why it was so different.
 
Many years later my perspective has changed. The conference talks are just dressing on the Mormon cake. Some of the talks are and always have been your "iron rodder, stick to the path" that is common place Mormon dogma but there are always talks that truly came off as inspirational and motivational. However the question should be asked, IMHO, why does one only feel that two times per year? Why don't I feel this more often within the church as an active, participating member? The answer, again IMHO, is that Mormonism talks a good talk in conference but in every day life Mormonism simply doesn't provide the happiness, peace, etc it says it does. In other words, the church uses conference like a business would an employee dinner/event. Small reward for what is required and Mormons in my experience aren't any happier than anyone else. It's just pretend or forced or based on naivity or lack of real world experience. 
 
Just another example why the LDS church isn't what it claims to be. 
 


   


Posted: 01 May 2016 10:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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The longer I have been out of the lds paradigm the clearer my understanding of how one talk was my guiding star. Elder Ronald Poelman gave a talk that really spoke to me. Many reminders of his first message clue me into how my belief system operated. It was a talk that lasted for decades not just six months or the rest of the year. Years after this talk was given, brainwashed mormon leaders pulled my head out of the lds ass. I realize that that one message was an important part of my being. I am sure that the content delivered of the original address kept me from being an evil TBM. Thankfully, after my eyes were opened I did see. Yes, those conference talks in general were repetitive, lack luster, and did not bolster long term guidance. What fortune it is to find out that the original talk I absorbed in general was replaced by specific unrighteous dominion. 
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Posted: 01 May 2016 11:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Free2Live:
The longer I have been out of the lds paradigm the clearer my understanding of how one talk was my guiding star. Elder Ronald Poelman gave a talk that really spoke to me. Many reminders of his first message clue me into how my belief system operated. It was a talk that lasted for decades not just six months or the rest of the year. Years after this talk was given, brainwashed mormon leaders pulled my head out of the lds ass. I realize that that one message was an important part of my being. I am sure that the content delivered of the original address kept me from being an evil TBM. Thankfully, after my eyes were opened I did see. Yes, those conference talks in general were repetitive, lack luster, and did not bolster long term guidance. What fortune it is to find out that the original talk I absorbed in general was replaced by specific unrighteous dominion. 
 
Was that the Poelman talk that they re-wrote butcherd and made him re-do it in front of an empty tabernacle?
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Posted: 01 May 2016 03:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Is there usually a central theme that runs through the conference talks?  What I mean is that when the leadership is deciding on the topics do they go.. "okay Saturday morning is gonna be about tithing and Saturday afternoon is all about the BoM."  Or do the individual speakers decide?  Also, I wonder if the presidency approves all the talks before they are delivered.
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Posted: 01 May 2016 06:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized:
Free2Live:
... What fortune it is to find out that the original talk I absorbed in general was replaced by specific unrighteous dominion. 
 
Was that the Poelman talk that they re-wrote butcherd and made him re-do it in front of an empty tabernacle?
 
 Yes it was. I was too numb and robotic to follow up on the details for decades. I just know I absorbed his original message. The rewrite, uhm yah. What a piece of mindcraft. My attitude was that the church was just a temporary vehicle as we learned and grew. At some point we should be standing on our own feet because that is what toddlers do as they grow into adolescence. Eventually, nature breaks away from parents and go out on its, own. It made enough sense to me versus what the orthodoxy are still pushing. (which takes me to this side-bar. Why sing lead me guide me when the cult is all about push me shove me trick me into their way?)
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Soon to be ex-mormon Tyler Glenn (of Neon Trees) Trashes Church in New Video
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Conference Mormonism vs The Rest of the Year Mormonism
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Pope Condems Pedofillia. Too Bad Mormon Leaders Do Not Have Courage To
by Strong Free & Thankful
I'm officially out
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Science Hits the W of W Below The Belt--Again!
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What might the Church look like in the future?
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Dan Dennett on the "Faith" card
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The temple taught me the value of apostasy
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My sister escaped and she's poking the hornet nest
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Thanks for the slaughter, God
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Richard Turley of Swedish Rescue fame
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Why do you think the Witnesses never recanted their testimonies?
by LostInParadise
The Several Facets of Truth
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Hornet's nest
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   http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/42272/




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The big J in G’s  
Posted: 28 April 2016 11:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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LostInParadise
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Just wondering if anyone has ever discussed with a TBM whether Jesus wore temple garments? This doctrinal question never occurred to me before, and I have never heard it discussed.
 
It seems that to believe in the Restoration would be to believe that Jesus was endowed and wore garments. Otherwise, it's not a restoration of the original church, right?
 
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Posted: 28 April 2016 03:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Winyan
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It wasn't one of the ordinances in the Jewish temple. So I'm thinking there were no garments. No bloody deaths oaths, no secret handshakes or signs symbols and penalties. 

   


Posted: 28 April 2016 03:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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LostInParadise
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Winyan:
It wasn't one of the ordinances in the Jewish temple. So I'm thinking there were no garments. No bloody deaths oaths, no secret handshakes or signs symbols and penalties.
 
 So here's how that strikes me based on LDS doctrine: when JS "restored" the original church of Jesus Christ, he was given higher covenants than Jesus himself took part in, making this not exactly a restoration and--more importantly--meaning Jesus was damned to a lesser kingdom and couldn't ascend to the Father because he hadn't received his endowment. Right???
 
Another facet of this is that it plays into the bigger picture where for the entire 6000 years since Adam and Eve left the garden, the full gospel was not given to us--only when someone as worthy as the pedophile prophet came along could it be given. That's a mean sense of humor for God to tell us we now have to make up for lost time and do the temple work for every single person ever born just because they weren't as awesome as us and didn't deserve the full gospel when they were here.
 
I wonder who's going to be the first to trace their genealogy back to Jesus of Nazareth and do his proxy work. I would think he'd be getting a little impatient by now.
 
But seriously, how does this even make sense within the  framework of Christianity?
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Posted: 28 April 2016 04:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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In the living room of my MIL is a portrait depicting Jesus dressed in a temple robe. My in-laws literally believe that there is no difference in what was performed in temples in Jesus time and today. The implication of the portrait is that Jesus wears G's.
 
The Mormon temple ceremony state that G's represent the coats of skin given to Adam and Eve by Jehova---so if Jesus wears garments, he wears them as a reminder of the coats of skins, he himself gave Adam and Eve?
 
The phrase "coats of skins" sound morbid to me. What kind of skins? Where did the skins come from? Did Jesus (Jehova) personally take the first life of any creature?
 
If Adam and Eve ate from the "tree of life" prior to eating from the "tree of knowelege" wouldn't the act of plucking the fruit from the "tree of life" by definition kill the fruit from the "tree of life".
 
The whole temple ceremony and Adam and Eve story is just so effed up. 
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Posted: 28 April 2016 04:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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I find very few similarities between the New Testament church and the Latter-day church. 
 
Currently there is very little caring for the poor, needy, homeless, down-trodden.
 
There is no one listening to the minority voice, the outcast or the Samaritan who doesn't look the same or has different traditions than the majority. 
 
The Temple is completely different than anything in the Old or New Testament. If one wants to get into theology; the veil of the temple was torn by the death of JC thus marking an end of the need for a temple or scapegoats or surrogats.
 
The offices of the original church (not that there was an organized group) have been completely twisted and reassigned, and redefined.
 
Women's voice and authority has been completely shut down. There used to be, at least as recorded in the NT, prophetesses, and in the OT "judges in Israel", what the LDS now call Bishops. 
 
And JC didn't seem to give much credence to what went on in the temple. How often did he go? Once a month? Every week?
 
JC would have made a very bad Mormon. He was way to radical, questioned authority at every phase of government and religion. He was too far left leaning for SLC.  He actually accepted people in their sinful state. 
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Posted: 28 April 2016 04:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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bradspencer74
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LostInParadise:
Just wondering if anyone has ever discussed with a TBM whether Jesus wore temple garments? This doctrinal question never occurred to me before, and I have never heard it discussed.
 
It seems that to believe in the Restoration would be to believe that Jesus was endowed and wore garments. Otherwise, it's not a restoration of the original church, right?
 
 
 I grew up in a rather "esoteric Mormonism" ward, so , I do remember the question being discussed.  I mean, I remember discussions about Kolob in my Deacon's class.
 
The answer, they decided, was yes, Jesus went through the entire set of stuff that the Mormons consider essential ordinances.  Baptism is obvious.  He was endowed on the Mount of Transfiguration.  His Second Endowment was completed in the story with the woman anointing Jesus with ointment.  And the second endowment would suggest that he had, in fact, been sealed (or sealed himself) to his 3 wives - Mary Magadaline, the other Mary, and Martha.
 
At least, that was what I was taught in my teenage years.  
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Posted: 28 April 2016 04:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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From my revised articles of faith (the bit about meetings is a new addition): 
 
6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the primitive church, namely, Visiting Teaching co-ordinators, second counsellors in the Sunday School presidency, 16 year old priests, cub scout leaders, chapel booking agents and so forth. And meetings. Oh, so many meetings.
 
That said, the temple work has, indeed been done, for Jesus of Nazareth. And he was sealed in the temple to his mother Mary and his father, who was listed as God the Father. There used to be a church-run service where you could ask if your ancestors had already had their temple work done, but enterprising people took to looking up the famous and the infamous, the most notorious of which was Adolf Hitler. When word of this hit the street, the service was discontinued.
 
By the way, I couldn't find a record Jesus' temple work, but I did find that Hitler's work was done in 1993 in the Jordan River temple. 
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Posted: 29 April 2016 08:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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Of course he wore them! There's a copy of his receipt from buying them at the Jerusalem Beehive Clothing in the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon.
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Posted: 01 May 2016 06:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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Jesus was a carpenter/stone mason....Egyptian masonry rituals might have been part of his sect....raising the dead (like Lazarus) and last supper rituals...washing feet, etc. At least, that's probably what Joe Smith thought. It's not a new concept...been bandied around various sources for hundreds of years....starting with King Barnard, and the Knights Templar.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


            
 
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What Is The Most Offensive Thing You Have Heard/Read Come Out Of The Mouth Of A Profit Or A GA?  
Posted: 14 April 2016 07:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
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Past or present.  If you only remember the gest of it--thats OK.  If you have the exact wording and referrence--I would love to have it.
 
  A few I can think of:
 
Brigham Young saying that if we love our neighbor and they sin--we will kill them. (Blood Atonement) That was what Christ meant by "love your neighbor."
 
Brigham Young saying from the pulpit that it was OK for blood brothers and sisters to marry and soon the entire world would be doing it.
 
Joseph Smith saying people were lying on him about practicing polygamy as he could barely find one wife.
 
Boyd K Packer saying  that if the seminary or institute teachers ran across truth that was not faith promoting to not feel a need to share it as not all truth is useful.
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 14 April 2016 08:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
Free2Live
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Wilford Woodruff:
 
Excerpts from Three Addresses by President Wilford Woodruff Regarding the Manifesto
 
The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty. (Sixty-first Semiannual General Conference of the Church, Monday, October 6, 1890, Salt Lake City, Utah. Reported in Deseret Evening News, October 11, 1890, p. 2.) 
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/od/1
 
Google this train of words - 'lds life in lords hand' , the examples abound.
 
This diatribe is one of the main statements coming out of the mouth of a narcissistic stake president that knocked the T out from under my BM. I knew a measly stake president didn't have claim to that super power. He lied out right as he bullied the stake from over the pulpit. This lie has been used and used and used over the years to control manipulate and bully people around. It was so offensive I could no longer sustain support and carry on the active function I was programmed into.
 
Thank the hypocrisy that the cult called a church still uses in offensive statements.
 
I WANT MY MONEY BACK! 
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Posted: 15 April 2016 02:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
peace out
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I think you mean false prophet  
 
If they had a link to the devine people would follow because thier logic would be perfect transcendent and verifiable by the evidence and world around you .
I have never seen such a thing. Only men and woman  or books making that claim.
 
great topic ! 
  
 
Some of my favorites! Truely uninspirted
Black Intermarriage

Back to Mormon Quotes Index
Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr. (1805-1844):
“Had I anything to do with the negro, I would confine them by strict law to their own species...”
- Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., January 2, 1845, History of the Church, v. 5, pp. 21-218
Prophet Brigham Young (1801 -1877):
“Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so. The nations of the earth have transgressed every law that God has given, they have changed the ordinances and broken every covenant made with the fathers, and they are like a hungry man that dreameth that he eateth, and he awaketh and behold he is empty.”
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 10, p. 110
Prophet George Albert Smith (1870 – 1951):
“Your ideas, as we understand them, appear to contemplate the intermarriage of the Negro and white races, a concept which has heretofore been most repugnant to most normal-minded people from the ancient patriarchs until now.... there is a growing tendency, particularly among some educators, as it manifests itself in this area, toward the breaking down of race barriers in the matter of intermarriage between whites and blacks, but it does not have the sanction of the Church and is contrary to Church doctrine.”
- LDS First Presidency (George Albert Smith), letter to Virgil H. Sponberg (critic of the anti-black ban), May 5, 1947, quoted in Lester E. Bush,Mormonism's Negro Doctrine: An Historical Overview, p. 42
Apostle Mark E. Peterson (1900 – 1984):
“We must not inter-marry with the Negro. Why? If I were to marry a Negro woman and have children by her, my children would oil be cursed as to the priesthood. Do I want my children cursed as to the priesthood? If there is one drop of Negro blood in my children, as I have read to you, they receive the curse. There isn't any argument, therefore, as to inter-marriage with the Negro, is there?”
- Apostle Mark E. Peterson, “Race Problems – As They Effect the Church,” Address given at the Convention of Teachers of Religion on the College Level, delivered at BYU, August 27, 1954
Apostle Bruce R. McConkie (1915 – 1985):
“However, in a broad general sense, caste systems have their root and origin in the gospel itself, and when they operate according to the divine decree, the resultant restrictions and segregation are right and proper and have the approval of the Lord. To illustrate: Cain, Ham, and the whole negro race have been cursed with a black skin, the mark of Cain, so they can be identified as a caste apart, a people with whom the other descendants of Adam should not intermarry.”
- Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 114

 


   


Posted: 15 April 2016 04:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Pretty much everything in Kimball's Miracle of Forgiveness is offensive.  I trashed my copy so I can't give any quotes.   But the one that stands out for me is his teaching that rape victims would be better off dying trying to fight off a rapist than to "allow" the rape to occur.
 
There are so many other offensive things in that book that it boggles my mind.  The man was a complete a**hole! 


   


Posted: 15 April 2016 04:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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The worst thing said recently to me has been L. Tom Perry "We want our voice to be heard against all of the counterfeit and alternative lifestyles that try to replace the family organization that God Himself established." https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/04/why-marriage-and-family-matter-everywhere-in-the-world?lang=eng Calling gay people's marriage counterfeit, is simply insulting and untrue, to those who have great marriages and he justifies it as God's will. If people said this in regard to Mormonism and their history of polygamy, they'd see it for what it is, but out of the mouth of their leaders and it's simply God's will. On top of that, this is his last talk to ever give.
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Posted: 15 April 2016 06:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
leftasteen
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The worst is the LDS Church's claim that...
 
   ...men with the Priesthood have the power and authority to speak and act in God's name.
 
From that arrogant "big lie" flow all the others. 


   


Posted: 15 April 2016 06:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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"Bretheren, I want you to understand that it is not to be as it has been heretofore. The brother missionaries have been in the habit of picking the prettiest women for themselves before they get here, and bringing on the ugly ones for us; hereafter you have to bring them all here before taking any of them, and let us all have a fair shake." Heber C. Kimball
 
"In the spirit world there is an increase of males and females, there are millions of them, and if I am faithful all the time, and continue right along with brother Brigham, we will go to brother Joseph and say, "Here we are brother Joseph, we are here ourselves are we not, with none of the property we possessed in our probationary state, not even the rings on our fingers." He will say to us, "Come along, my boys, we will give you a good suit of clothes. Where are your wives?" "They are back yonder, they would not follow us." "Never mind, " says Joseph, "here are thousands, have all you want." Perhaps some do not believe that, but I am simple enough to believe it." Heber C. Kimball
 
Wich part of the last quote is true? I was thinking the last sentence  


   


Posted: 15 April 2016 08:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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Winyan
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That victims of abuse/assault should talk with their bishops about how much of it was their own fault and seek repentence. I think it was Richard Scott. 

   


Posted: 15 April 2016 08:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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peace out:
I think you mean false prophet  
 
If they had a link to the devine people would follow because thier logic would be perfect transcendent and verifiable by the evidence and world around you .
I have never seen such a thing. Only men and woman  or books making that claim.
 
great topic ! 
  
 
Some of my favorites! Truely uninspirted
Black Intermarriage

Back to Mormon Quotes Index
Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr. (1805-1844):
“Had I anything to do with the negro, I would confine them by strict law to their own species...”
- Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., January 2, 1845, History of the Church, v. 5, pp. 21-218
Prophet Brigham Young (1801 -1877):
“Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so. The nations of the earth have transgressed every law that God has given, they have changed the ordinances and broken every covenant made with the fathers, and they are like a hungry man that dreameth that he eateth, and he awaketh and behold he is empty.”
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 10, p. 110
Prophet George Albert Smith (1870 – 1951):
“Your ideas, as we understand them, appear to contemplate the intermarriage of the Negro and white races, a concept which has heretofore been most repugnant to most normal-minded people from the ancient patriarchs until now.... there is a growing tendency, particularly among some educators, as it manifests itself in this area, toward the breaking down of race barriers in the matter of intermarriage between whites and blacks, but it does not have the sanction of the Church and is contrary to Church doctrine.”
- LDS First Presidency (George Albert Smith), letter to Virgil H. Sponberg (critic of the anti-black ban), May 5, 1947, quoted in Lester E. Bush,Mormonism's Negro Doctrine: An Historical Overview, p. 42
Apostle Mark E. Peterson (1900 – 1984):
“We must not inter-marry with the Negro. Why? If I were to marry a Negro woman and have children by her, my children would oil be cursed as to the priesthood. Do I want my children cursed as to the priesthood? If there is one drop of Negro blood in my children, as I have read to you, they receive the curse. There isn't any argument, therefore, as to inter-marriage with the Negro, is there?”
- Apostle Mark E. Peterson, “Race Problems – As They Effect the Church,” Address given at the Convention of Teachers of Religion on the College Level, delivered at BYU, August 27, 1954
Apostle Bruce R. McConkie (1915 – 1985):
“However, in a broad general sense, caste systems have their root and origin in the gospel itself, and when they operate according to the divine decree, the resultant restrictions and segregation are right and proper and have the approval of the Lord. To illustrate: Cain, Ham, and the whole negro race have been cursed with a black skin, the mark of Cain, so they can be identified as a caste apart, a people with whom the other descendants of Adam should not intermarry.”
- Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 114

 
 Yes--Peace Out, I meant "profit" of course. 
 
 Signature
I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 15 April 2016 08:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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Thanks everyone.  These are some good ones.  I am making a collection of horrible things to come from those whom TBMs call "mouthpieces of god."  Anything else, they fluff off as only members making mistakes.  Lets keep this going.
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 15 April 2016 08:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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dave (e_nomo)
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Well of course we've all heard that when these offensive and outrageous things were said, the speakers were speaking "as men" not as prophets. 
As if it's OK for men to teach this kind of garbage.  
It's not OK. 
 
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As Neo reaches for the red pill Morpheus warns Neo
“Remember, all I’m offering is the truth. Nothing more.”


   


Posted: 15 April 2016 09:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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Celestial Wedgie
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In terms of damage to my own life: The worst thing I ever heard--and I believe it got started with Spencer W. Kimball (so I'm with Suzieq on this)--was that any deviation from perfect chastity was "the sin second only to murder."  

   


Posted: 15 April 2016 10:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
peace out
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Celestial Wedgie:
In terms of damage to my own life: The worst thing I ever heard--and I believe it got started with Spencer W. Kimball (so I'm with Suzieq on this)--was that any deviation from perfect chastity was "the sin second only to murder." 
 
 The expectation that you should never have a sexual thought or dwell on a sexual thought really can mess with your heard when you honestly believe what you have been told. The churches policy on masturbation is about as damaging thing as I can think of for me when I was a missionary.  I was really tortured by that. 


   


Posted: 15 April 2016 01:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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DrW
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 The June 1945 Imporovement Era  contains the following quote as part of a Ward Teachers’ message: 
-
When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan–it is God’s plan. When they point the way, there is no other which is safe. When they give direction, it should mark the end of controversy. God works in no other way. To think otherwise, without immediate repentance, may cost one his faith, may destroy his testimony, and leave him a stranger to the kingdom of God. 


   


Posted: 15 April 2016 07:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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peace out:
Celestial Wedgie:
In terms of damage to my own life: The worst thing I ever heard--and I believe it got started with Spencer W. Kimball (so I'm with Suzieq on this)--was that any deviation from perfect chastity was "the sin second only to murder." 
 
 The expectation that you should never have a sexual thought or dwell on a sexual thought really can mess with your heard when you honestly believe what you have been told. The churches policy on masturbation is about as damaging thing as I can think of for me when I was a missionary.  I was really tortured by that. 
 
 I grew up with this message and I definitely agree it screws with your head.  Add to that I went through precocious puberty and it gave me enough sexual hangups to weigh down a horse.  It took me years to work past them so I could have a healthy sex life.   
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“We are defined not only by what we create, but what we refuse to destroy.”


   


Posted: 16 April 2016 04:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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FreeLive:
Wilford Woodruff:
 
Excerpts from Three Addresses by President Wilford Woodruff Regarding the Manifesto
 
The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty. (Sixty-first Semiannual General Conference of the Church, Monday, October 6, 1890, Salt Lake City, Utah. Reported in Deseret Evening News, October 11, 1890, p. 2.) 
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/od/1
 
Google this train of words - 'lds life in lords hand' , the examples abound.
 
This diatribe is one of the main statements coming out of the mouth of a narcissistic stake president that knocked the T out from under my BM. I knew a measly stake president didn't have claim to that super power. He lied out right as he bullied the stake from over the pulpit. This lie has been used and used and used over the years to control manipulate and bully people around. It was so offensive I could no longer sustain support and carry on the active function I was programmed into.
 
Thank the hypocrisy that the cult called a church still uses in offensive statements.
 
I WANT MY MONEY BACK! 
 
  The many doctrines the church has changed from plural marriage, blood atonement, no coffee or tea, race prejudice--so many prove these infallible leaders have been wrong time and time again and those who believed them wrong as well.  This one is a perfect example of cult mind control.  I want my money back too!
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 16 April 2016 04:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
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peace out:
I think you mean false prophet  
 
If they had a link to the devine people would follow because thier logic would be perfect transcendent and verifiable by the evidence and world around you .
I have never seen such a thing. Only men and woman  or books making that claim.
 
great topic ! 
  
 
Some of my favorites! Truely uninspirted
Black Intermarriage

Back to Mormon Quotes Index
Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr. (1805-1844):
“Had I anything to do with the negro, I would confine them by strict law to their own species...”
- Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., January 2, 1845, History of the Church, v. 5, pp. 21-218
Prophet Brigham Young (1801 -1877):
“Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so. The nations of the earth have transgressed every law that God has given, they have changed the ordinances and broken every covenant made with the fathers, and they are like a hungry man that dreameth that he eateth, and he awaketh and behold he is empty.”
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 10, p. 110
Prophet George Albert Smith (1870 – 1951):
“Your ideas, as we understand them, appear to contemplate the intermarriage of the Negro and white races, a concept which has heretofore been most repugnant to most normal-minded people from the ancient patriarchs until now.... there is a growing tendency, particularly among some educators, as it manifests itself in this area, toward the breaking down of race barriers in the matter of intermarriage between whites and blacks, but it does not have the sanction of the Church and is contrary to Church doctrine.”
- LDS First Presidency (George Albert Smith), letter to Virgil H. Sponberg (critic of the anti-black ban), May 5, 1947, quoted in Lester E. Bush,Mormonism's Negro Doctrine: An Historical Overview, p. 42
Apostle Mark E. Peterson (1900 – 1984):
“We must not inter-marry with the Negro. Why? If I were to marry a Negro woman and have children by her, my children would oil be cursed as to the priesthood. Do I want my children cursed as to the priesthood? If there is one drop of Negro blood in my children, as I have read to you, they receive the curse. There isn't any argument, therefore, as to inter-marriage with the Negro, is there?”
- Apostle Mark E. Peterson, “Race Problems – As They Effect the Church,” Address given at the Convention of Teachers of Religion on the College Level, delivered at BYU, August 27, 1954
Apostle Bruce R. McConkie (1915 – 1985):
“However, in a broad general sense, caste systems have their root and origin in the gospel itself, and when they operate according to the divine decree, the resultant restrictions and segregation are right and proper and have the approval of the Lord. To illustrate: Cain, Ham, and the whole negro race have been cursed with a black skin, the mark of Cain, so they can be identified as a caste apart, a people with whom the other descendants of Adam should not intermarry.”
- Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 114

 
 
 Their teachings are so ugly and wrong on this and they span all the way from Joseph Smith to Bruce Mc Conkie--maybe even past--I don't know.  So with all of these men being this wrong--just WHEN did they start being "prophets of god"?  Most of them were not even that decent as human beings.  Thanks much for detailed references Peace Out!
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 16 April 2016 04:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
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SuziQ:
Pretty much everything in Kimball's Miracle of Forgiveness is offensive.  I trashed my copy so I can't give any quotes.   But the one that stands out for me is his teaching that rape victims would be better off dying trying to fight off a rapist than to "allow" the rape to occur.
 
There are so many other offensive things in that book that it boggles my mind.  The man was a complete a**hole! 
 
 I agree SuziQ--this one is horrible.  I remember seeing this first in a series called, "Especially for Mormons."  It was a quote from an earlier profit, cannot remember which one.  Even as a TBM, I realized how wrong it was.  I tore it out so my children would not see it and think the church was not true.     I think I have the M of F, in storage.  Was thankful when I found I still had it--for reference of the craziness.  
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 16 April 2016 11:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
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One of my favorites was not done by a Profit or GA. It was from my seminary teacher after he heard me talking how i was adopted and did not know my blood lines, genetic or DNA history.  
 
He said that once i was sealed to my family, my blood became like their blood and my DNA/Genetics was changed to theirs.   I looked at him and told him that is so stupid to even think that. He asked me to leave the class and go talk to the Seminary Principal. I Just left the building, never went back to seminary.
 
And of course: " Let's go shopping" 
 Signature http://www.jonathankmarshall.blogspot.com


   


Posted: 16 April 2016 06:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]   

   
 
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David Jason:
The worst thing said recently to me has been L. Tom Perry "We want our voice to be heard against all of the counterfeit and alternative lifestyles that try to replace the family organization that God Himself established." https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/04/why-marriage-and-family-matter-everywhere-in-the-world?lang=eng Calling gay people's marriage counterfeit, is simply insulting and untrue, to those who have great marriages and he justifies it as God's will. If people said this in regard to Mormonism and their history of polygamy, they'd see it for what it is, but out of the mouth of their leaders and it's simply God's will. On top of that, this is his last talk to ever give.
 
 They are so arrogant--so mean.  Thats Ok.  The SL Trib just reported that only 64% of the young are remaining active compared to 90% in previous generations.  See where it gets them.  
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 16 April 2016 07:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]   

   
 
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leftasteen:
The worst is the LDS Church's claim that...
 
   ...men with the Priesthood have the power and authority to speak and act in God's name.
 
From that arrogant "big lie" flow all the others. 
 
 This should have been stopped long ago.  When Partick Swayze was dying, he said, "People who steal hope are vultures."  Not all PH blessings are positive.  My mom was given a "death blessing."  She was told she was going to die.  Who does that?  She was nowhere near death.  Still putting on eye makeup.  I won't go into the details but I have shared them on here before.  A year later--she was still alive but her TBM family thought she should not be--thanks to that horrible blessing.  It did not end well.  People have been told to leave their spouses in PH blessings.  They are tools of manipulation.  The church needs to be sued over this practice.
 Signature
I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 17 April 2016 07:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]   

   
 
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A few years ago I heard this gem in a conference talk. 
"There is no body of men more in tune with the issues facing mankind than the first presidency and quorum of the twelve."
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If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away.
- Henry David Thoreau


   


Posted: 17 April 2016 09:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]   

   
 
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sage:
A few years ago I heard this gem in a conference talk. 
"There is no body of men more in tune with the issues facing mankind than the first presidency and quorum of the twelve."
 
 This one makes me want to puke.   Aren't they the last to catch on to everything that is good or that needs to be addressed?  Health, coffee, tea, wine, sugar, social issues, moral issues, the planet.  But...the victims believe them cause that is what cult members do.
 Signature
I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 17 April 2016 09:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]   

   
 
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 The following are from a collection of quotes included in the Zelph on the Shelf article entitled,  Inside The Mind Of An Apostle
 
 
“I know that the history of the church is not to seek apologies or to give them.” – Elder Dallin H. Oaks
 
 
“The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as president of the Church to lead you astray.” – President Wilford Woodruff
 
 
“I am scripture.” – Elder David A. Bednar
 
 
“It’s wrong to criticize leaders of the Church, even if the criticism is true.” – Elder Dallin H. Oaks

 
“Some things that are true are not very useful.” – Elder Boyd K. Packer
 
and finally, my favorite:
 
"The Mantle is Far, Far Greater Than the Intellect"
– Elder Boyd K. Packer
 
What kind of an arrogant, ignorant, narcissistic, self-serving  asshole worldview does it take to make a public statement like this? 
 
 


   


Posted: 17 April 2016 02:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]   

   
 
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Strong Free & Thankful:
Past or present.  If you only remember the gest of it--thats OK.  If you have the exact wording and referrence--I would love to have it.
 
  A few I can think of:
 
Brigham Young saying that if we love our neighbor and they sin--we will kill them. (Blood Atonement) That was what Christ meant by "love your neighbor."
 
Brigham Young saying from the pulpit that it was OK for blood brothers and sisters to marry and soon the entire world would be doing it.
 
Joseph Smith saying people were lying on him about practicing polygamy as he could barely find one wife.
 
Boyd K Packer saying  that if the seminary or institute teachers ran across truth
that was not faith promoting to not feel a need to share it as not all truth is useful] 
This happened when I was a true believing worker bee, holding down a Stake calling while teaching Gospel Doctrine, husband in Bishopric with our fifth missionary child in the field.  I don't believe I would qualify as a doubter, BUT . . .
 
It became necessary to assign a Seventy to preside over the Mission in our Area.  I believe his name was Marlin K. Jensen.  You might remember while he was Church Historian he gave an interview about Church resignations reaching the same numbers as happened in the early history of the Church.
 
He was Mission President for three years.  He often spoke at our Stake Conferences. One sermon he delivered was a bit (huge understatement) unsettling.  He addressed the topic of keeping covenants.
 
Please forgive me for not recalling his source, but he said it was a story from the Bible during one of the many periods of war for Israel.  A certain General was disheartened because Israel had suffered defeat after defeat.  
 
He pled with the Lord to come to their aid and help them win just one battle.  He made a covenant with the Lord.  In this covenant, he promised to make a sacrifice of the first thing that greeted him on returning home.  It was the practice of his favorite dog to run to him whenever he returned.
 
As luck would have it (or maybe his prayer was heard) he was victorious in the succeeding battles.  He returned home, expecting to be greeted as he always was by his loyal canine.  To his horror, the person who greeted him first was his precious and only daughter.
 
Now, I fully expected Pres. Jensen to explain that the Lord certainly would not have required the General to sacrifice his daughter, but that never occurred.  He continued the story admonishing everyone that the Lord takes covenants very seriously. That He will hold us to our promises just as He did the General.
 
He then related how the daughter accepted her fate willingly and went about saying farewell to her loved ones and friends, knowing she would honor her father's covenant. 
 
That was such a wound to me!  I tried to remember the source he quoted, but neglected to follow through.  The resulting damage done to my testimony was catastrophic.  I did not believe him!  I could not believe anyone WOULD believe in a God who would require such an atrocity. But here was a Seventy, a Mission President teaching this as truth. 
 
Perhaps this reminiscence isn't quite what you were after.  However, it was related by a General Authority who taught it as the truth upon which we will be judged.  Needless to say, I had many questions about just who this God is, and whether I care to keep any covenants sacred.
 
 
 
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“I do not feel obligated to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect, has intended us to forgo their use.”
Galileo Galilei


   


Posted: 17 April 2016 06:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]   

   
 
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GrannnyAnnie,
 
I won't re-post--as it is long but thank you so much for sharing this!!!  Ugh!  What a horrible story!  It gave me chills--not good ones.  You know, I remember hearing this story long ago--in church!  Sick stuff.  It made me feel scared when I was a TBM.  Who needs a god or a religion that is this evil?  It reminds me of when Bring um Young used to have family kill another family member who had sinned.  One husband and wife had dinner together and then she allowed him to kill her--due to adultry while he was away.  What would keep a fanatical member from making this same covenanent with the lawrd?  Maybe killing their dog or even their daughter. Scary.  These jerks need their power to be taken away.
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 17 April 2016 07:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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The lies that Gordon B. Hinkley told Time magazine about man becoming god...or NOT as he said. Lies all lies.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 18 April 2016 04:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]   

   
 
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"I think no more of taking another wife than I do of buying a cow."
- Heber C. Kimball
 
"Brother Jacobs, the woman you claim for a wife does not belong to you. She is the spiritual wife of brother Joseph, sealed up to him. I am his proxy, and she, in this behalf, with her children, are my property. You can go where you please, and get another, but be sure to get one of your own kindred spirit." 
- Brigham Young (to Henry Jacobs, as Young claimed Jacobs' wife for his own) 
 
Women are cattle and property, nothing more. We see the fruits of this in the recent controversy of the BYU Honor Code office holding rape victims to account. 
 
 
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You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler


   


Posted: 18 April 2016 10:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]   

   
 
David Jason
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Strong Free & Thankful:
David Jason:
...On top of that, this is his last talk to ever give.
 
 They are so arrogant--so mean.  Thats Ok.  The SL Trib just reported that only 64% of the young are remaining active compared to 90% in previous generations.  See where it gets them.  
 
 And they'll sell it as a sign of the time, persecution even, instead of an awakening of young mormons
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Posted: 18 April 2016 11:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]   

   
 
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GrannyAnnie:
Strong Free & Thankful:
Past or present.  If you only remember the gest of it--thats OK.  If you have the exact wording and referrence--I would love to have it.
 
  A few I can think of:
 
Brigham Young saying that if we love our neighbor and they sin--we will kill them. (Blood Atonement) That was what Christ meant by "love your neighbor."
 
Brigham Young saying from the pulpit that it was OK for blood brothers and sisters to marry and soon the entire world would be doing it.
 
Joseph Smith saying people were lying on him about practicing polygamy as he could barely find one wife.
 
Boyd K Packer saying  that if the seminary or institute teachers ran across truth
that was not faith promoting to not feel a need to share it as not all truth is useful] 
This happened when I was a true believing worker bee, holding down a Stake calling while teaching Gospel Doctrine, husband in Bishopric with our fifth missionary child in the field.  I don't believe I would qualify as a doubter, BUT . . .
 
It became necessary to assign a Seventy to preside over the Mission in our Area.  I believe his name was Marlin K. Jensen.  You might remember while he was Church Historian he gave an interview about Church resignations reaching the same numbers as happened in the early history of the Church.
 
He was Mission President for three years.  He often spoke at our Stake Conferences. One sermon he delivered was a bit (huge understatement) unsettling.  He addressed the topic of keeping covenants.
 
Please forgive me for not recalling his source, but he said it was a story from the Bible during one of the many periods of war for Israel.  A certain General was disheartened because Israel had suffered defeat after defeat.  
 
He pled with the Lord to come to their aid and help them win just one battle.  He made a covenant with the Lord.  In this covenant, he promised to make a sacrifice of the first thing that greeted him on returning home.  It was the practice of his favorite dog to run to him whenever he returned.
 
As luck would have it (or maybe his prayer was heard) he was victorious in the succeeding battles.  He returned home, expecting to be greeted as he always was by his loyal canine.  To his horror, the person who greeted him first was his precious and only daughter.
 
Now, I fully expected Pres. Jensen to explain that the Lord certainly would not have required the General to sacrifice his daughter, but that never occurred.  He continued the story admonishing everyone that the Lord takes covenants very seriously. That He will hold us to our promises just as He did the General.
 
He then related how the daughter accepted her fate willingly and went about saying farewell to her loved ones and friends, knowing she would honor her father's covenant. 
 
That was such a wound to me!  I tried to remember the source he quoted, but neglected to follow through.  The resulting damage done to my testimony was catastrophic.  I did not believe him!  I could not believe anyone WOULD believe in a God who would require such an atrocity. But here was a Seventy, a Mission President teaching this as truth. 
 
Perhaps this reminiscence isn't quite what you were after.  However, it was related by a General Authority who taught it as the truth upon which we will be judged.  Needless to say, I had many questions about just who this God is, and whether I care to keep any covenants sacred.
 
 
 
 
 


  The reference to this story is Judges 11:30-40.  The most offensive thing I ever heard came from the mouth of Joseph Smith who assumed the voice of Christ in DC 132 where he said to his wife Emma that she would be destroyed if she refused to assent to his taking more wives.  Can you imagine our Lord Jesus, the "Prince of Peace", whose business it was to save lives not destroy them, saying such a thing to a faithful and devoted wife?  Also, according to Emma's own account, Joseph threatened her with destruction should she ever so much as attempt to pull back the cloth and take a peek inside the box that contained Joe's "Golden Bible"!


   


Posted: 18 April 2016 01:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]   

   
 
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I just read the John Taylor said that the reason the black people survived the flood was through Ham's wife because she was of that seed? Holy Cow!!
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Posted: 18 April 2016 06:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized:
"I think no more of taking another wife than I do of buying a cow."
- Heber C. Kimball
 
"Brother Jacobs, the woman you claim for a wife does not belong to you. She is the spiritual wife of brother Joseph, sealed up to him. I am his proxy, and she, in this behalf, with her children, are my property. You can go where you please, and get another, but be sure to get one of your own kindred spirit." 
- Brigham Young (to Henry Jacobs, as Young claimed Jacobs' wife for his own) 
 
Women are cattle and property, nothing more. We see the fruits of this in the recent controversy of the BYU Honor Code office holding rape victims to account. 
 
 
 
 Like what they did to this poor young woman who was raped?
 
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/byu-honor-code-action-rape-victim_us_5714fa82e4b0060ccda3b7fa?
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 19 April 2016 04:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]   

   
 
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Strong Free & Thankful:
Matter Unorganized:
"I think no more of taking another wife than I do of buying a cow."
- Heber C. Kimball
 
"Brother Jacobs, the woman you claim for a wife does not belong to you. She is the spiritual wife of brother Joseph, sealed up to him. I am his proxy, and she, in this behalf, with her children, are my property. You can go where you please, and get another, but be sure to get one of your own kindred spirit." 
- Brigham Young (to Henry Jacobs, as Young claimed Jacobs' wife for his own) 
 
Women are cattle and property, nothing more. We see the fruits of this in the recent controversy of the BYU Honor Code office holding rape victims to account. 
 
 
 
 Like what they did to this poor young woman who was raped?
 
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/byu-honor-code-action-rape-victim_us_5714fa82e4b0060ccda3b7fa?
 
Exactly! And who knows how many others? After all, the "good name" of the church is paramount. Women are nothing but cattle and property, so protecting them is secondary.
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Posted: 19 April 2016 07:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]   

   
 
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I need to add my $1 worth now before I read all the comments  --  haven't read any yet but I know with every fiber of my being that this thread is going to be a good one.  Besides if I wait until the end, I'll probably forget what I was going to write(I'm just an old fart with brain cramps)
OK,  I attended one of those solemn assemblies they used to have back when a was a semi good tbm with a golden ticket.  I remember this talk from Mark E. Peterson(he was always one of my favorite GA until this talk and all the other shit he has said).  He was talking about oral sex(the first time I ever heard a GA talk about anything that sexually explicit.  I find it interesting that before going to the holy house of creepy hugs and handshakes they are suppose to have a temple prep class  --  what a joke!  There was nothing before the ceremony, during the ceremony or after the ceremony where some penishood holder said to the participants about what kinds of sex you could have  --  there was no sex before the ceremony and after the ceremony it was like  --  YES!).  If there were rules, we weren't given The Mormon Sex Manual for Appropriate and Acceptable Marital Sexual Behavior(you know how the morg is about manuals)  --  I even asked my last Bishop(he was a good guy) if he got a copy and he said no.  Back to MEP's talk about oral sex(it's been a long time so this is the reader's digest version).  He couldn't understand how anyone would engage in such a disgusting activity(I knew then that his sex life really sucked  --  pun intended).  He said no member, especially all you penishood holders should not be engagaed in this disgusting activity and if you have/are, you should repent/talk with your bishop and don't do it anymore.  Then, he mentioned that he would be upset if he knew his daughter engaged in oral sex(and I'm thinking, maybe she has and maybe she liked it  --  what a bummer to have your dad the ga tell you that something you really enjoy is disgusting and a sin  --  especially if she really liked it).
For me, it became another example of the lack of transparancy in the morg.  They preach abstinance to the point the some are so turned off with sex that they have adjustment problems and when the big penishood holder in the holy house of creepy hugs and handshakes now pronounces you H&W, it is now OK to engaged in that "nasty, filthy, terrible activity  --  Oh, yes, remember to follow the rules of mormon marital sex(BTW, we didn't tell you what they were, you need to discern for yourself what they are and if you sin and stray, we'll tell you!)
I remember reading that letter that was sent to SP, B, BP, saying that they couldn't specifically ask you if you were engaging in oral sex.  What a JOKE!!


   


Posted: 19 April 2016 07:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]   

   
 
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maynardg:
I need to add my $1 worth now before I read all the comments  --  haven't read any yet but I know with every fiber of my being that this thread is going to be a good one.  Besides if I wait until the end, I'll probably forget what I was going to write(I'm just an old fart with brain cramps)
OK,  I attended one of those solemn assemblies they used to have back when a was a semi good tbm with a golden ticket.  I remember this talk from Mark E. Peterson(he was always one of my favorite GA until this talk and all the other shit he has said).  He was talking about oral sex(the first time I ever heard a GA talk about anything that sexually explicit.  I find it interesting that before going to the holy house of creepy hugs and handshakes they are suppose to have a temple prep class  --  what a joke!  There was nothing before the ceremony, during the ceremony or after the ceremony where some penishood holder said to the participants about what kinds of sex you could have  --  there was no sex before the ceremony and after the ceremony it was like  --  YES!).  If there were rules, we weren't given The Mormon Sex Manual for Appropriate and Acceptable Marital Sexual Behavior(you know how the morg is about manuals)  --  I even asked my last Bishop(he was a good guy) if he got a copy and he said no.  Back to MEP's talk about oral sex(it's been a long time so this is the reader's digest version).  He couldn't understand how anyone would engage in such a disgusting activity(I knew then that his sex life really sucked  --  pun intended).  He said no member, especially all you penishood holders should not be engagaed in this disgusting activity and if you have/are, you should repent/talk with your bishop and don't do it anymore.  Then, he mentioned that he would be upset if he knew his daughter engaged in oral sex(and I'm thinking, maybe she has and maybe she liked it  --  what a bummer to have your dad the ga tell you that something you really enjoy is disgusting and a sin  --  especially if she really liked it).
For me, it became another example of the lack of transparancy in the morg.  They preach abstinance to the point the some are so turned off with sex that they have adjustment problems and when the big penishood holder in the holy house of creepy hugs and handshakes now pronounces you H&W, it is now OK to engaged in that "nasty, filthy, terrible activity  --  Oh, yes, remember to follow the rules of mormon marital sex(BTW, we didn't tell you what they were, you need to discern for yourself what they are and if you sin and stray, we'll tell you!)
I remember reading that letter that was sent to SP, B, BP, saying that they couldn't specifically ask you if you were engaging in oral sex.  What a JOKE!!
 
One evening sometime before my mission...
 
My dad was working for a guy who was bishop of his ward. One summer evening, Dad and I were sitting in the living room of our home - I can imagine him reading the newspaper and I was probably thinking about some mundane thing - and completely out of the blue, he announces (in a very disgusted voice) "Boy, Bishop X (his boss) sure has a probelm with oral sex in his ward!" Now I don't know if this was Dad's way of teaching me that oral sex was a sin, or if it had been weighing heavily on his mind that day, or whatever, but I was thinking WTF? And why was Bishop X divulging this info to my Dad?
 
One day after my mission...
 
I was sitting around on a Saturday afternoon with other returned missionaries, swapping yarns, and one said that she had been teaching a man on her mission who had been left paraplegic because of an accident, and he asked about oral sex, and he said what do you mean, that's the only kind of sex I can have, and she said she had to firmly (pun) tell him No, it's forbidden, and then she complained that he stopped taking the discussions and didn't get baptized. Well no shit! I mean really, the church would take away this dude's only sexual outlet and tell him too bad, so sad? I was a believer at the time, but I truly felt sorry for the dude and truly conflicted about the whole thing. 
 
That whole oral sex thing is one messed up bit of "doctrine". In fact, there IS no doctrine on it; it's just old men in suits making up rules to keep the people in line. Remember, Mark E Peterson was the same guy who had never seen his wife "uncovered" in 44 years of marriage. Thank Zeus that this is no longer enforced!
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Posted: 19 April 2016 11:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]   

   
 
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It has been my experience that morgbots suffer from two similar yet different phenomena  --  diarrhea of the mouth and emotional vomit.  The former is like the bishop devulging sexual things about the members of his ward(he should be released but not before someone takes him out to the woodshed and kicks the living shit out of the $%#hole) or MEP telling us that he'd never seen his wife naked during the 44 years of their marriage  --  should tell us all we need to know about his sex life and his wife's  --  probably wouldn't know how to satisfy a woman even if they did give him a "manual of instructions"(IMVHO, I believe that the sexual revolution of the 60s and 70s saved us babyboomers from becoming as uptight and sexually repressed as the parental/grandparental generation  --  although Masters and Johnson found out a lot of the sexual secrets of those two generations  --  would have made many of them blush).  The latter is what you see in F&T mtgs when morgbots devulge all their emotional baggage/troubled histories/personal indiscretions to the whole ward    --  it like good morning and then blahhhh!  IMVHO, I believe the morg uses sex  --  oral sex and masturbation(so if a man or woman manually brings their partner to orgasm  --  masturbation of a different kind, but still masturbation, does that constitute a sin  --  if they use sex toys to do the same thing, does that constitute a sin  --  personally I don't give a shit as long as it brings pleasure to my partner  --  but if one is a rabidTBM and the other is an apostate, that could cause disharmony in the relationship)as a form of control over the morgbots because if the word comes from the fossil fifteen it has to be the word from god.  IMVHO, I believe god had a sense of humor because he made sex  --  Adam and Eve were naked and probably had a grand old time playing with the little factory and licking the cupcake and then it became a dirty, filthy, nasty experience  --  the beginning of control and religion(the morg probably the worst offender) has &^$#ed up probably the most fun activity in relationships, by making rules to control/emotional violate/emotionally terrorize its members.  One of the things that put me over the edge was the fact the some guy(pinnochio joe) who banged 33 women(I know the appologists say that he didin't have sex with all of the women  --  how do you spell fat chance  --  btw, how many women does it take to make it wrong/a sin) sets up a church that dictates to its members what kind of sex they can have(only the missionary position, only in the months without an "R" and make sure you put your magic undies on immediately after doing the horizontal mambo!  Personally, I believe he should have had his equipment nailed to a log, given him a knife and then set the log on fire!  Just sayin. 

   


Posted: 19 April 2016 02:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]   

   
 
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Felix:
"Bretheren, I want you to understand that it is not to be as it has been heretofore. The brother missionaries have been in the habit of picking the prettiest women for themselves before they get here, and bringing on the ugly ones for us; hereafter you have to bring them all here before taking any of them, and let us all have a fair shake." Heber C. Kimball
 
"In the spirit world there is an increase of males and females, there are millions of them, and if I am faithful all the time, and continue right along with brother Brigham, we will go to brother Joseph and say, "Here we are brother Joseph, we are here ourselves are we not, with none of the property we possessed in our probationary state, not even the rings on our fingers." He will say to us, "Come along, my boys, we will give you a good suit of clothes. Where are your wives?" "They are back yonder, they would not follow us." "Never mind, " says Joseph, "here are thousands, have all you want." Perhaps some do not believe that, but I am simple enough to believe it." Heber C. Kimball
 
Wich part of the last quote is true? I was thinking the last sentence  
 
 Felix,
 
He did hit the nail on the head with that one.  Simple-minded thinking he was.
 
That man was plain evil--but then so were his successors.  Greedy, perverted geezer!  Licking his lips for the next pretty one as he steals their lives and chances for happiness 
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 19 April 2016 02:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]   

   
 
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Winyan:
That victims of abuse/assault should talk with their bishops about how much of it was their own fault and seek repentence. I think it was Richard Scott.
 
 Very pertinent to what is happening at BYU right now.  And unless he is a bishop who thinks outside the box, bishop has be conditioned to believe that the woman probably did something to bring on the rape.  Dirt bag GAs!
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 19 April 2016 05:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]   

   
 
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dave (e_nomo):
Well of course we've all heard that when these offensive and outrageous things were said, the speakers were speaking "as men" not as prophets. 
As if it's OK for men to teach this kind of garbage.  
It's not OK. 
 
 
If that is who they are as men, why should I believe in a god who chooses evil men to do his work?  Something is wrong with that picture.
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 20 April 2016 04:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]   

   
 
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I just recently stumbled upon a youtube video with a panel of Mormon apologists that were being asked questions. Because of the quality of the video I don't know who said this but: If Mormons don't know by now about the Seer Stone it's their fault. The Church has been transparent about this. C'mon....seriously
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Posted: 20 April 2016 06:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]   

   
 
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TheDogLady:
...I don't know who said this but: If Mormons don't know by now about the Seer Stone it's their fault. The Church has been transparent about this. C'mon....seriously
 
And all the Book of Mormon translation pictures, every one, reflects exactly
 
what
 
was
 
taugh...
 
 
Never mind! 
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What Is The Most Offensive Thing You Have Heard/Read Come Out Of The Mouth Of A Profit Or A GA?  
Posted: 20 April 2016 06:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]   

   
 
dancemonkey
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Mine are pretty simple garbage spewing but:
 
Gordon Hinckley saying; "Mormons do not drink cola drinks". Didn't he know the Word of Wisdom only meant hot drinks, ehm excuse me while I down this Iced coffee
 
Joesph fielding Smith; "the power of procreation will be removed" (doctrines of Salvation) doesn't a profit know he doesn't speak without the approval of the marketing department. Come on it ruins the standing our new document the Proclomation on the Family.


   


Posted: 20 April 2016 07:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]   

   
 
Free2Live
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The rat out your friends for masturbating speech is way way way...uhm way ...can't find the words for it!
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OM_U7DFlqe8
  {raw language... so beware...lol}
Then the lds claims that the video was an attack on porn not masturbation. The video is removed from the web. Why? God doesn't want his word revealed afterall. ? ! God sure changes it's mind a lot for being unchanging.
 
Onanism is not about masturbation. Onanism is about having sex and pulling out before pregnancy happens. Supposedly, this dude Onan was commanded to f his brothers wife to make seed for his brother. He decides to do his part as far as sex goes. He works for the railroad and pulls out in time and spills it upon the ground. Religion rewrites what ever the old testament depicts as masturbation and lays it against all humankind.  The only use for this story is that this Onan did not "OBEY". Sound familiar? Oh yah and the story goes that he is destroyed. Death by God was the verdict in a court of love from on high.
 
 
 
 
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One is as committed into testimony as much as they pay into the belief in dollars, time, talent and energy. Afterall, it has to be true once you have signed the lifetime subscription and you have a track record to defend.


   


Posted: 20 April 2016 12:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]   

   
 
Flora4
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FreeLive:
 
Onanism is not about masturbation. Onanism is about having sex and pulling out before pregnancy happens. Supposedly, this dude Onan was commanded to f his brothers wife to make seed for his brother. He decides to do his part as far as sex goes. He works for the railroad and pulls out in time and spills it upon the ground. Religion rewrites what ever the old testament depicts as masturbation and lays it against all humankind.  The only use for this story is that this Onan did not "OBEY". Sound familiar? Oh yah and the story goes that he is destroyed. Death by God was the verdict in a court of love from on high.
 
 
 
 
 
 My first exposure to this term was while watching 'Being Human' (UK version)
The character Hal, protests that he is being accused of onanism.  In this case it was an accusation about masterbation. I tried looking up the term but didn't know how to spell it.
 
Sadly Dictionary.com defines the term as both masterbation and  coitus interruptus. Dictionary.com also relates the bible story of Onan, explaining how the word gained its root phrase. (The story is from Genesis 38:9)
 
 Although the dictionary makes the defenition ambiguous, the term seems best understood the way that FreeLive defines it, as coitus interruptus.  
I just wanted to thank you, FreeLive, for helping  spell the word.
Thank You   


   


Posted: 20 April 2016 05:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]   

   
 
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Celestial Wedgie:
In terms of damage to my own life: The worst thing I ever heard--and I believe it got started with Spencer W. Kimball (so I'm with Suzieq on this)--was that any deviation from perfect chastity was "the sin second only to murder." 
 Sorry that was done to you Celestial Wedgie.  I wonder how many young men have been traumatized, sent into PTSD and even committed suicide.  And...probably not just the young.  Awful!  I don't know--Kimball surely left his harmful mark with "Miracle of Forgiveness."  Didn't the earlier leaders teach this to some degree? I just know they have always controlled member's sex lives--unless you were in the "good old boys" club.  In that case, they helped you to get whatever sex you wanted--young girls, other men's wives, even your own blood sister (Brigham Young).  YUK!
 
 Signature
I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 21 April 2016 03:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]   

   
 
Hank
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I can't think of any one thing I heard that threw me for a loop. I was pretty good at throwing things up on the shelf.  What did throw me for a loop was reading the full Carthage jail story out of Church History, printed by the church, described by John Taylor. I remember thinking "If the church lied/whitewashed so much of that story, what else are they whitewashing? Could be everything! Nothing the church says can be taken as truth, at face value!" 

   


Posted: 26 April 2016 08:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 46 ]   

   
 
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Hank:
I can't think of any one thing I heard that threw me for a loop. I was pretty good at throwing things up on the shelf.  What did throw me for a loop was reading the full Carthage jail story out of Church History, printed by the church, described by John Taylor. I remember thinking "If the church lied/whitewashed so much of that story, what else are they whitewashing? Could be everything! Nothing the church says can be taken as truth, at face value!"
 Hank,
Are you saying the Carthage Jail story as told by John Taylor is different from what the church now teaches?
 
 Signature
I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 26 April 2016 06:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 47 ]   

   
 
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tangie17
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SuziQ:
Pretty much everything in Kimball's Miracle of Forgiveness is offensive.  I trashed my copy so I can't give any quotes.   But the one that stands out for me is his teaching that rape victims would be better off dying trying to fight off a rapist than to "allow" the rape to occur.
 
There are so many other offensive things in that book that it boggles my mind.  The man was a complete a**hole! 
 
 That is one of the "teachings" that drove me out of the church.  They made a big deal of it in young women's back in the day, that you would be no longer virtuous if you chose to live instead of dying a virgin.  Made me sick to my stomach.
 


   


Posted: 26 April 2016 07:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 48 ]   

   
 
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tangie:
SuziQ:
Pretty much everything in Kimball's Miracle of Forgiveness is offensive.  I trashed my copy so I can't give any quotes.   But the one that stands out for me is his teaching that rape victims would be better off dying trying to fight off a rapist than to "allow" the rape to occur.
 
There are so many other offensive things in that book that it boggles my mind.  The man was a complete a**hole! 
 
 That is one of the "teachings" that drove me out of the church.  They made a big deal of it in young women's back in the day, that you would be no longer virtuous if you chose to live instead of dying a virgin.  Made me sick to my stomach.
 
 
 tangie 17,
Yes, I remember that teaching.  Cannot remember which evil profit said that but I don't think it came from Kimball originally.  The quote was in the set, "especially for Mormons."  As a young mother, I found it and tore it out of the book!    I did not want my children to grow up and find it and maybe think the church was not true--because one leader made a mistake.  This kind of attitude still lives on at BYU and in  many class rooms and family tables.  Mainstream mormonism is a lot more like the FLDS than the old geezers like to admit.  Sick is right.
 Signature
I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 27 April 2016 05:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 49 ]   

   
 
Hank
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Strong Free & Thankful:
Hank:
I can't think of any one thing I heard that threw me for a loop. I was pretty good at throwing things up on the shelf.  What did throw me for a loop was reading the full Carthage jail story out of Church History, printed by the church, described by John Taylor. I remember thinking "If the church lied/whitewashed so much of that story, what else are they whitewashing? Could be everything! Nothing the church says can be taken as truth, at face value!"
 Hank,
Are you saying the Carthage Jail story as told by John Taylor is different from what the church now teaches?
 
 
I'm saying that when the whole story is known, it's not "poor lamb to the slaughter".
 
CHurch version: JS voluntarily surrendered on trumped up charges relating to the destruction of a slanderous press. JS, Hyrum, others hung out at Carthage Jail. Sang hymns, said prayers. JS wrote letters to Emma. Then the bad guys rushed the stairs and JS helped Hyrum hold the door, at which point they both get shot. JS runs to the window, raises his arms a prays to God, shot/dies/falls out window.
 
Full version: JS, Hyrum (and a couple others as I recall) had already crossed the river and were headed west (running from the law). Someone caught up with them and begged JS to return. The Saints needed him, various officials made promises of safety. Eventually JS said, basically, well, if the Saints don't care about my life, then screw it, I don't care, I'll go back. He surrendered because he ordered the destruction of a newspaper press (wasn't there something about the freedom of the press in the Constitution?) that printed the absolute truth about JS's polygamy and other goings-on. While in Carthage jail, someone brought in a gallon of wine, which they polished off and then started singing hymns. A visitor offered a 6 shooter to anyone who wanted it. JS "jumped" at the chance and quickly snagged the gun. Later, as the mob went up the stairs, JS put his arm around the opening of the door, aimed the gun downwards and squeezed the trigger 6 times. Three bullets went off, (3 didn't) killing one (mixed reports on whether one of the 3 shot survived or not) and injuring 2. (Does that sound like a martyr?) Then he went to the window and raised his arms...it's the same action as in the temple, lower arms while chanting oh lord hear the words of my mouth...this was also the Masonic distress call. There had to be Masons outside in the crowd, right? Then he get shot, dies/falls out window. Oh, and JS did write letters, including one ordering his Navuoo Legion to come bust him out of jail...the order was apparently disobeyed. Oh, and the curse BY put on the leaders and the wounded in the mob, that they would be poor and disease ridden, had very successful and pleasant lives (this last sentance is a side note, but everything else was written by Taylor, other than my side notes).
 
The whole story, to me, gave it a completely different spin than a meak servent of the Lord that was willing to meet his maker, be a martyr... and the thought came to mind "If they whitewashed this so much, they probably whitewash or lie about anything they tell us." Shelf broke.
 
And yes, JS was murdered, I'm not defending the mob, but JS was just as willing to do to others as what the mob did to him, as evidenced by his written order to bust him out of jail.


   


Posted: 28 April 2016 05:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 50 ]   

   
 
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bradspencer74
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Strong Free & Thankful:
tangie:
SuziQ:
Pretty much everything in Kimball's Miracle of Forgiveness is offensive.  I trashed my copy so I can't give any quotes.   But the one that stands out for me is his teaching that rape victims would be better off dying trying to fight off a rapist than to "allow" the rape to occur.
 
There are so many other offensive things in that book that it boggles my mind.  The man was a complete a**hole! 
 
 That is one of the "teachings" that drove me out of the church.  They made a big deal of it in young women's back in the day, that you would be no longer virtuous if you chose to live instead of dying a virgin.  Made me sick to my stomach.
 
 
 tangie 17,
Yes, I remember that teaching.  Cannot remember which evil profit said that but I don't think it came from Kimball originally.  The quote was in the set, "especially for Mormons."  As a young mother, I found it and tore it out of the book!    I did not want my children to grow up and find it and maybe think the church was not true--because one leader made a mistake.  This kind of attitude still lives on at BYU and in  many class rooms and family tables.  Mainstream mormonism is a lot more like the FLDS than the old geezers like to admit.  Sick is right.
 
 Oh, it definitely lives on.
 
Just before I came to my mission, the MP - pissed that his numbers were not stellar in the bible belt converting the heathen Baptists - stopped all missionary work and bought 180 copies of Miracle of Forgiveness.  He would not allow any missionary back into the field until they had been forced to read the book cover to cover and then have an indepth interview on each chapter.  The result - over 25% of the missionaries were sent home dishonorably.  When I went home, over 2 years later, the mission was just about break even in honorable vs dishonorable departures because of that guilt trip, mostly over masturbation.
 
But the death before "sex" attitude lives on.  The current YBU Honor Code expulsions for rape victims to Stuart Matis' mother writing in her book that she found confort that he son died a virgin by suicide rather than be impure through accepting his homosexuality.  Her exact words, "Although we are sad Stuart is gone, we are comforted and happy that he died with his temple covenants intact."
 
So, for me at least, the most offensive things I have heard from the Church have not come from the GA's, though they have said some gastly sh*t.  The most offensive things come from the members who have been well-tutored in proclaiming hatred, even to the point of death for victims, as "love" and seeing their statements, no matter how vulgar, as "loving examples of Christ." 
 Signature
“Fitness is my religion and the gym is my temple” Fitness God 3:16
The Gym is my Church.  My sweat is my prayers.  My strength is my salvation.


   


Posted: 28 April 2016 06:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 51 ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
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bradspencer:
Strong Free & Thankful:
tangie:
SuziQ:
Pretty much everything in Kimball's Miracle of Forgiveness is offensive.  I trashed my copy so I can't give any quotes.   But the one that stands out for me is his teaching that rape victims would be better off dying trying to fight off a rapist than to "allow" the rape to occur.
 
There are so many other offensive things in that book that it boggles my mind.  The man was a complete a**hole! 
 
 That is one of the "teachings" that drove me out of the church.  They made a big deal of it in young women's back in the day, that you would be no longer virtuous if you chose to live instead of dying a virgin.  Made me sick to my stomach.
 
 
 tangie 17,
Yes, I remember that teaching.  Cannot remember which evil profit said that but I don't think it came from Kimball originally.  The quote was in the set, "especially for Mormons."  As a young mother, I found it and tore it out of the book!    I did not want my children to grow up and find it and maybe think the church was not true--because one leader made a mistake.  This kind of attitude still lives on at BYU and in  many class rooms and family tables.  Mainstream mormonism is a lot more like the FLDS than the old geezers like to admit.  Sick is right.
 
 Oh, it definitely lives on.
 
Just before I came to my mission, the MP - pissed that his numbers were not stellar in the bible belt converting the heathen Baptists - stopped all missionary work and bought 180 copies of Miracle of Forgiveness.  He would not allow any missionary back into the field until they had been forced to read the book cover to cover and then have an indepth interview on each chapter.  The result - over 25% of the missionaries were sent home dishonorably.  When I went home, over 2 years later, the mission was just about break even in honorable vs dishonorable departures because of that guilt trip, mostly over masturbation.
 
But the death before "sex" attitude lives on.  The current YBU Honor Code expulsions for rape victims to Stuart Matis' mother writing in her book that she found confort that he son died a virgin by suicide rather than be impure through accepting his homosexuality.  Her exact words, "Although we are sad Stuart is gone, we are comforted and happy that he died with his temple covenants intact."
 
So, for me at least, the most offensive things I have heard from the Church have not come from the GA's, though they have said some gastly sh*t.  The most offensive things come from the members who have been well-tutored in proclaiming hatred, even to the point of death for victims, as "love" and seeing their statements, no matter how vulgar, as "loving examples of Christ." 
bradspencer,
 
Where can we find this book?
 
 Signature
I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 29 April 2016 11:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 52 ]   

   
 
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bradspencer74
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Strong Free & Thankful:
bradspencer:
Strong Free & Thankful:
tangie:
SuziQ:
Pretty much everything in Kimball's Miracle of Forgiveness is offensive.  I trashed my copy so I can't give any quotes.   But the one that stands out for me is his teaching that rape victims would be better off dying trying to fight off a rapist than to "allow" the rape to occur.
 
There are so many other offensive things in that book that it boggles my mind.  The man was a complete a**hole! 
 
 That is one of the "teachings" that drove me out of the church.  They made a big deal of it in young women's back in the day, that you would be no longer virtuous if you chose to live instead of dying a virgin.  Made me sick to my stomach.
 
 
 tangie 17,
Yes, I remember that teaching.  Cannot remember which evil profit said that but I don't think it came from Kimball originally.  The quote was in the set, "especially for Mormons."  As a young mother, I found it and tore it out of the book!    I did not want my children to grow up and find it and maybe think the church was not true--because one leader made a mistake.  This kind of attitude still lives on at BYU and in  many class rooms and family tables.  Mainstream mormonism is a lot more like the FLDS than the old geezers like to admit.  Sick is right.
 
 Oh, it definitely lives on.
 
Just before I came to my mission, the MP - pissed that his numbers were not stellar in the bible belt converting the heathen Baptists - stopped all missionary work and bought 180 copies of Miracle of Forgiveness.  He would not allow any missionary back into the field until they had been forced to read the book cover to cover and then have an indepth interview on each chapter.  The result - over 25% of the missionaries were sent home dishonorably.  When I went home, over 2 years later, the mission was just about break even in honorable vs dishonorable departures because of that guilt trip, mostly over masturbation.
 
But the death before "sex" attitude lives on.  The current YBU Honor Code expulsions for rape victims to Stuart Matis' mother writing in her book that she found confort that he son died a virgin by suicide rather than be impure through accepting his homosexuality.  Her exact words, "Although we are sad Stuart is gone, we are comforted and happy that he died with his temple covenants intact."
 
So, for me at least, the most offensive things I have heard from the Church have not come from the GA's, though they have said some gastly sh*t.  The most offensive things come from the members who have been well-tutored in proclaiming hatred, even to the point of death for victims, as "love" and seeing their statements, no matter how vulgar, as "loving examples of Christ." 
bradspencer,
 
Where can we find this book?
 
 
 
I refuse to put up the link from Deseret Book, so here it is on Amazon
 
In Quiet Desperation 
 
You will note that the co-author is Ty Mansfield - the president of Northstar, which is the new name of Evergreen, the reparative therapy LDS group.  I believe said individual has been the focus of some threads on Post-Mo before - and the "hero" he has become to many TBMs for becoming "gay cured" by getting married, etc.  Anyway, to my knowledge, this is the first time his name every came to be known in gay LDS/Affirmation circles much less in the general membership.  You can just IMAGINE how shallow and condescending this thing is in an attempt to show "compassion" as they call it. Same as they do in 2016.
 
You'  see lots of typical TBM fluff on how it helps them understand those "who suffer from same-sex attraction."  (As if I am a disease that needs curing) And several giving the same "christ-like love" about gay people's weakness and lust for sin.  But, the best review of the thing is from Eric Erickson, one of Stuart's friends.
 
 
 
 
This book pretends to explain why my friend, Stuart Matis, took his own life dramatically. Stuart's parents are just speculating on what it is like to be a gay man. Ty Mansfield never met Stuart, and is himself pretending to be an exgay married to a woman. He is entitled to his own life, but to to rewrite that of others.
 


This book is a shameful misrepresentation of a man's life. I miss Stuart and wish he could have survived the manipulation that Mormonism imposes on its gay children, but he is only one of 3 gay Mormons friends I have lost to suicide.
 
 
 
 
 
 Signature
“Fitness is my religion and the gym is my temple” Fitness God 3:16
The Gym is my Church.  My sweat is my prayers.  My strength is my salvation.


   


Posted: 29 April 2016 05:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 53 ]   

   
 
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bradspencer,
 
Thank you for the link.  This is so sad.  I know this happens all the time as well--when a young man commits suicide over the guilt of masturbation.  The family hides it, changes it, denies it and makes excuses why their loved one took their life and is now in a better place.  Stinks!  So sorry for your many losses.  Three is far too many.  Those leaders have so much blood on their hands. 
 Signature
I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 30 April 2016 10:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 54 ]   

   
 
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bradspencer74
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Strong Free & Thankful:
bradspencer,
 
Thank you for the link.  This is so sad.  I know this happens all the time as well--when a young man commits suicide over the guilt of masturbation.  The family hides it, changes it, denies it and makes excuses why their loved one took their life and is now in a better place.  Stinks!  So sorry for your many losses.  Three is far too many.  Those leaders have so much blood on their hands. 
 
 YW.  
 
If you are not familiar - Stuart shot himself on the front steps of his stake center just before the initial California Prop 22 vote which the Church was heavily invested in 2000. He tried so hard to "pray the gay away" that even the Coroner's report noted that his knees were calloused and scraped from long term kneeling.  Stuart's death was written about in Newsweek and picked up by several other national news magazines - one of the first "bad press" stories the Church had about homosexuality and was one of the things that required their "softening" stance on gays in the 2000s.
 
Although I did not know him personally, I did come to know Eric.  Stuart was a very good man, and the most visible example of so many who have died over the Church and their families when it comes to being LGBT.  I tried in Logan in 2002 - and was very lucky to have received a phone call that stopped me.
 
Everytime I see some pronouncement from the Church on gays, I think of him.  To traumatized by every whim of hatred that spews from the rank in file.  And on top of it to have Mansfield desecrate his memory with his ex-gay business in Evergreen and Northstar.  Makes my blood boil even more. 
 
I truly live in fear of the day when some young person decides to do what Stuart did - except it is on Temple Square instead of an Los Angeles Stake Center.  No life is ever worth that EVER - Stuart's bishop to his credit told him if it came down between the Church and life to choose life - but one day one of these tortured kids or young adults will do just that.  It seems that the only way the get the Q15 to even acknoledge something about their abominable behavior is when they are forced to watch the blood they shed firsthand. 
 Signature
“Fitness is my religion and the gym is my temple” Fitness God 3:16
The Gym is my Church.  My sweat is my prayers.  My strength is my salvation.


   


Posted: 30 April 2016 07:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 55 ]   

   
 
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bradspencer:
Strong Free & Thankful:
bradspencer,
 
Thank you for the link.  This is so sad.  I know this happens all the time as well--when a young man commits suicide over the guilt of masturbation.  The family hides it, changes it, denies it and makes excuses why their loved one took their life and is now in a better place.  Stinks!  So sorry for your many losses.  Three is far too many.  Those leaders have so much blood on their hands. 
 
 YW.  
 
If you are not familiar - Stuart shot himself on the front steps of his stake center just before the initial California Prop 22 vote which the Church was heavily invested in 2000. He tried so hard to "pray the gay away" that even the Coroner's report noted that his knees were calloused and scraped from long term kneeling.  Stuart's death was written about in Newsweek and picked up by several other national news magazines - one of the first "bad press" stories the Church had about homosexuality and was one of the things that required their "softening" stance on gays in the 2000s.
 
Although I did not know him personally, I did come to know Eric.  Stuart was a very good man, and the most visible example of so many who have died over the Church and their families when it comes to being LGBT.  I tried in Logan in 2002 - and was very lucky to have received a phone call that stopped me.
 
Everytime I see some pronouncement from the Church on gays, I think of him.  To traumatized by every whim of hatred that spews from the rank in file.  And on top of it to have Mansfield desecrate his memory with his ex-gay business in Evergreen and Northstar.  Makes my blood boil even more. 
 
I truly live in fear of the day when some young person decides to do what Stuart did - except it is on Temple Square instead of an Los Angeles Stake Center.  No life is ever worth that EVER - Stuart's bishop to his credit told him if it came down between the Church and life to choose life - but one day one of these tortured kids or young adults will do just that.  It seems that the only way the get the Q15 to even acknoledge something about their abominable behavior is when they are forced to watch the blood they shed firsthand. 
Thank you.  I did not know this story.  My hand went over my mouth as I read it--in horror.  How can those douche bags in SL read about his calloused knees and shooting himself on the church steps and not walk away from this cult? I am so sorry for all they did to him and almost did to you.  Do not every give them even such a thought!  Their made-up religion is simple--it is evil hiding behind a show of goodness.
 
You are correct--the entire mormon church is not worth one loss of life, which it has caused--tortured gay people, young--who kill themselves over masturbation--men and women who have killed themselves or left family over toxic guilt syndrome, young girls still being raped by the FLDS because their parents believe god condoned Joseph Smith doing this and are still following his example.   I believe the world is changing, humankind evolving to something better, wiser and it is happening rapidly.  We are evolving past religion--cutting out the middle man. They will not stand.  
 
 Signature
I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 30 April 2016 08:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 56 ]   

   
 
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Jeffrey Holland just gave a speech in AZ in which he insulted, belittled, and expressed his anger at those who leave the church. Definitely made the list IMO. 
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Posted: 01 May 2016 04:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 57 ]   

   
 
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LostInParadise:
Jeffrey Holland just gave a speech in AZ in which he insulted, belittled, and expressed his anger at those who leave the church. Definitely made the list IMO. 
 
 Would be good to make this speech public. 
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Why would you consider a man a prophet whose morals are worse than your own? Having claimed to commune with deity, be visited by angels and receive revelations, should he not be held to a higher standard? —me


   


Posted: 01 May 2016 05:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 58 ]   

   
 
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LostInParadise:
Jeffrey Holland just gave a speech in AZ in which he insulted, belittled, and expressed his anger at those who leave the church. Definitely made the list IMO. 
 
 Is it just me or has Jowls gotten more and more bitter and angry since his son got the boot from the National Organization for Marriage?  
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Posted: 01 May 2016 07:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 59 ]   

   
 
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Quartersawn:
LostInParadise:
Jeffrey Holland just gave a speech in AZ in which he insulted, belittled, and expressed his anger at those who leave the church. Definitely made the list IMO. 
 
 Would be good to make this speech public. 
 
Ask and ye shall receive...
 
Here's the link:
 
http://www.lifeaftermormonism.net/video/elder-holland-tempe-arizona-devotional-dont-you-dare-bail
 
(Can't makeit work on my phone. Just cut and paste.)
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Posted: 01 May 2016 08:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 60 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized:
Quartersawn:
LostInParadise:
Jeffrey Holland just gave a speech in AZ in which he insulted, belittled, and expressed his anger at those who leave the church. Definitely made the list IMO. 
 
 Would be good to make this speech public. 
 
Ask and ye shall receive...
 
Here's the link:
 
http://www.lifeaftermormonism.net/video/elder-holland-tempe-arizona-devotional-dont-you-dare-bail
 
(Can't makeit work on my phone. Just cut and paste.)
 
  http://www.lifeaftermormonism.net/video/elder-holland-tempe-arizona-devotional-dont-you-dare-bail?xg_source=activity
 
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Posted: 01 May 2016 11:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 61 ]   

   
 
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FreeLive:
Matter Unorganized:
Quartersawn:
LostInParadise:
Jeffrey Holland just gave a speech in AZ in which he insulted, belittled, and expressed his anger at those who leave the church. Definitely made the list IMO. 
 
 Would be good to make this speech public. 
 
Ask and ye shall receive...
 
Here's the link:
 
http://www.lifeaftermormonism.net/video/elder-holland-tempe-arizona-devotional-dont-you-dare-bail
 
(Can't makeit work on my phone. Just cut and paste.)
 
  http://www.lifeaftermormonism.net/video/elder-holland-tempe-arizona-devotional-dont-you-dare-bail?xg_source=activity
 
 
Gracias. 
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Posted: 01 May 2016 06:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 62 ]   

   
 
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LostInParadise:
Jeffrey Holland just gave a speech in AZ in which he insulted, belittled, and expressed his anger at those who leave the church. Definitely made the list IMO. 
 Jeffery Holland has always been a sleeze bag.  I have a video of him lying about there not being any "Strengthening the Members Committe" (Danites).  Then when the BBC reporter produces proof, he admits--well, yes there is one.  He is just not a nice person.  I am sure he hates those of us who have the courage and smarts to leave.  Douche Bag and Doo Doo!
 
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 01 May 2016 06:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 63 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized:
FreeLive:
Matter Unorganized:
Quartersawn:
LostInParadise:
Jeffrey Holland just gave a speech in AZ in which he insulted, belittled, and expressed his anger at those who leave the church. Definitely made the list IMO. 
 
 Would be good to make this speech public. 
 
Ask and ye shall receive...
 
Here's the link:
 
http://www.lifeaftermormonism.net/video/elder-holland-tempe-arizona-devotional-dont-you-dare-bail
 
(Can't makeit work on my phone. Just cut and paste.)
 
  http://www.lifeaftermormonism.net/video/elder-holland-tempe-arizona-devotional-dont-you-dare-bail?xg_source=activity
 
 
Gracias. 
 
 De nada! Je vous en prie! Bitte Schon! Prego! Do Itashimashite! Welcome!
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Mormon GA about the First Vision: “We have always been at war with Eastasia.”  
Posted: 02 May 2016 05:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Richard J. Maynes of the presidency of the Seventy held a special fireside last night about the multiple versions of the First (Re)Vision and declared that the multiple versions, "make Joseph's First Vision the best-documented vision in history."
 
Uh, OK.
 
A couple things:
 
First, I don't think multiple, conflicting accounts make it "the best documented" in a good way given that these accounts conflict with each other instead of complementing each other though defenders will say each account just adds more nuance to the story. Maybe he just had a case of "Fuzzy Memory Syndrome" in getting his details right. See also: Eddie's recap of the accounts. 
 
Second, the church's attempts at being more transparent through talks like this and the accompanying essays are laudable. However, methinks it's too little, too late. I was a lifelong member -- RM, Gospel Doctrine teacher, EQ instructor, etc. etc. -- and had never heard of the multiple versions of the First Vision until 2007 when I watched the PBS special "The Mormons." (I was 36 at the time.) I remember hearing Ken Clark mention the multiple versions in his interview and I did a double-take. "Wait, what?" I immediately went to Google and then found all kinds of info about them. But I never asked about or researched this issue because I had no idea there was a question to ask or something research. Of course, that's no longer the case and the church is trying to play catch-up.
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Posted: 02 May 2016 07:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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I am right there with you. I was 36 when i heard about the multiple accounts.  I went and researched more and had my eyes opened to such a falsity. 
 
The history of the Church is carefully layed out in such a way where there is a chance that it "might" have happened and so i think that is why most Members don't question anything about what the Church says or does.  
 
 
 
 
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Science Hits the W of W Below The Belt--Again!
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My sister escaped and she's poking the hornet nest
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Thanks for the slaughter, God
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Why do you think the Witnesses never recanted their testimonies?
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The Several Facets of Truth
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Jeff Holland in Tempe “furious with people who leave”  
Posted: 02 May 2016 01:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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  https://youtu.be/K4_LcENySzQ
 
"What kind of pattycake taffy pull experience is that?!? "
"I'm not gonna let you leave it." 
 
"That's the dumbest thing you can do, and the only thing dumber would be for someone else to follow you."
 
You can start at 31:00 for the thoughts on apostates, but the whole thing is good 1980's vintage moronism, and the Holland I know from my mission days. 
 
 


   


Posted: 02 May 2016 05:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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At the 19:30 mark mister Holland says "This is the church of the happy endings". 
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Posted: 02 May 2016 07:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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I found the parts I listened to kinda creepy.  It also caused me to reflect on the time when I would have listened to the same intonations and wild claims would have provoked a different emotional response in me.   How strange it is to have been on both sides of belief of this religion.  I prefer the green of the grass on this side. 

   


Posted: 02 May 2016 07:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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What an asshat. Compare with Dieter Uctdorf's comments in October 2013:
 
In this Church that honors personal agency so strongly, that was restored by a young man who asked questions and sought answers, we respect those who honestly search for truth. It may break our hearts when their journey takes them away from the Church we love and the truth we have found, but we honor their right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their own conscience, just as we claim that privilege for ourselves. 
 
I have no use for Holland. I've gotten mileage out of Uchtdorf's comments, when someone was giving me the gears about leaving. I invoked the 11th Article of Faith, then Uchtdorf's comments. It worked like a charm and he hasn't harangued me since.
 
The only way in which Holland's comments could be to my benefit is if I were to hold them up to Uchtdorf's, ask which is more Christlike, and point out that even the apostles aren't on the same page.
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Posted: 02 May 2016 07:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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One of my favorite things to listen for in all of these GA talks are the subtle ways they try to instill fear in everyone in the audience.
 
He raises his voice to where its almost shouting and angry toned. You can hear the nervous laughter.  He is condeming them but at the same time sayings its okay to have doubts and questions, but listen to what we tell you before you do.   
 
I have asked many of the lds people i work with if they had heard of Jeremy Runnels, or the CES letter.  10 out of the 12 said NO.  Even with all that is out there on the web, they still won't learn or study anything but what the Church puts out.  
 
 
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Posted: 02 May 2016 08:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
peace out
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How dare you ask a special witness of JC to tell you specifically what he witnessed.
How dare you ask me to answer questions about the church.
Ok so what do you think your f-ing job is? 


   


Posted: 02 May 2016 08:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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What better way than to poke fun at the seriousness of TSCc's truth crisis? Laughter kills fear, and without fear there is no faith.
 
Holland was onto this concept but failed miserably in his approach to poke fun of the ones who contemplate bailing out of the sinking ship called a church. He sounded a lot like the late Hugh Nibley, in The Myth Makers, dispelling the seriousness of Brodie's work with lame humorous responses to the current bigger truth crisis now being faced.  


   


Posted: 02 May 2016 08:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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GA's ranting about people leaving, while church PR stridently insists that "everything is awesome!" makes me think of the old adage, "'Tis the hit bird that flutters."
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Posted: 02 May 2016 08:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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unintentional duplicate deleted
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Mormon GA about the First Vision: "We have always been at war with Eastasia."
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Soon to be ex-mormon Tyler Glenn (of Neon Trees) Trashes Church in New Video
by Jon Marshall
What Is The Most Offensive Thing You Have Heard/Read Come Out Of The Mouth Of A Profit Or A GA?
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The big J in G's
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Conference Mormonism vs The Rest of the Year Mormonism
by Free2Live
Pope Condems Pedofillia. Too Bad Mormon Leaders Do Not Have Courage To
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I'm officially out
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Science Hits the W of W Below The Belt--Again!
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The temple taught me the value of apostasy
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My sister escaped and she's poking the hornet nest
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Thanks for the slaughter, God
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Why do you think the Witnesses never recanted their testimonies?
by LostInParadise
The Several Facets of Truth
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Soon to be ex-mormon Tyler Glenn (of Neon Trees) Trashes Church in New Video  
Posted: 29 April 2016 07:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
Avatar
Matter Unorganized
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This won't end well!
 
Tyler Glenn's new video starts with a famous painting of JS on the wall but with the face made out to be a skull, and Tyler drinking from a liquor bottle. Another painting is JS in the bedroom with Nephi ... er ... Jesus ... er ... Moroni (I can't keep these different accounts straight anymore), with both faces made out to be like skulls and Moroni in a PINK robe!
 
This article in Rolling Stone includes a link to the video. 
 
Excommunication in 3... 2... 1... 
 
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Posted: 29 April 2016 08:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized:
 
Excommunication in 3... 2... 1... 
 
 
If he hasn't already resigned.
 
The video is epic.  
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Palmetto PostMormons Chapter Page | Swearing Elders Blog


   


Posted: 29 April 2016 12:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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bradspencer74
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And I so remember the Mormon love of for Neon Trees a couple of years ago, lol.  I have a feeling this is in response to that.
 
Oh, and he WILL be ex'ed.  If you watch his hands - he is giving temple signs and tokens in the elevator an other places in the vid. 
 
BTW - anyone who has been in more Utah temples than I have know what temple this is supposed to be set in?  Given the peepholes in the doors and wall, they are how they are laid out in most endowment rooms and sealing rooms. 
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Posted: 29 April 2016 04:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Morethanmo
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Tyler Glenn wrote our anthem!
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__________________________________________

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
~Epicurus
__________________________________________


   


Posted: 02 May 2016 07:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Jon Marshall
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I showed my wife the music video because she loves Neon Trees. Well she used to. 
 
She said she couldn't watch it.  Once it got to the part where he was doing the temple signs she was done. She is going to tell her Mom about it and not to watch it. Her mom is very TBM as well as the rest of her family.  They love music, going to concerts and have seen Neon Trees a few times.  I hope that they listen to the words if they do watch it. But i think the symbolisms of the video are going to make them turn it off. 
 
To me, i loved it. The Church can't sue or do much about the pictures with the skulls because its not said or named who it is.  I am just glad that we all know who it is.  And for as shocking as it was to some, I have read some instagram posts by some very TBM's condeming him, it might make them open their eyes and do some research outside of the bubble. 
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 Jeff Holland in Tempe "furious with people who leave"
by NickB
Mormon GA about the First Vision: "We have always been at war with Eastasia."
by Jon Marshall
Soon to be ex-mormon Tyler Glenn (of Neon Trees) Trashes Church in New Video
by Jon Marshall
What Is The Most Offensive Thing You Have Heard/Read Come Out Of The Mouth Of A Profit Or A GA?
by Free2Live
The big J in G's
by Tessa
Conference Mormonism vs The Rest of the Year Mormonism
by Free2Live
Pope Condems Pedofillia. Too Bad Mormon Leaders Do Not Have Courage To
by Strong Free & Thankful
I'm officially out
by Free2Live
Science Hits the W of W Below The Belt--Again!
by Strong Free & Thankful
St. Judas the Traitor 1st Ward - Meetup - Sunday, May 1st, 10:00am at Harmons (Draper, UT) - ***New photo at bottom of thread***
by BITE ME
Portland Oregon Ex-Mormon Meetup - May 15
by LessMon
What might the Church look like in the future?
by Smitty
Dan Dennett on the "Faith" card
by Celestial Wedgie
The temple taught me the value of apostasy
by Morethanmo
My sister escaped and she's poking the hornet nest
by Bruce A Holt
Thanks for the slaughter, God
by Strong Free & Thankful
Richard Turley of Swedish Rescue fame
by Quartersawn
Why do you think the Witnesses never recanted their testimonies?
by LostInParadise
The Several Facets of Truth
by son of perdition
Hornet's nest
by Bruce A Holt 

   http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/42269/





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2015 Conference
"LEAVING A LEGACY"
October 16-18
Doubletree Suites
SLC, Utah




















 


Financial Report for 2011 to Date

Financial Report for 2010 to Date

Financial Report for 2009

Twin Falls Newspaper Article

Twin Falls Billboard

Financial Report for 2009 to Date




The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]

Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]

Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]



 Summer Schedule
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
 SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/1)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
Coming up May 1’st 2016 - Kristyn Decker to lecture!
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (4/3)
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Imprompu get-together
[Dead Prophets Soc...] 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (3/6)
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Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series- March 6th, 2016 Author Dave Nelson
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Open House Meetup: 3/19/16
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
Train ride and picnic Meetup: 2/27/16
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Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series February 7th, 2016- Joe Rawlins
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Jan 10th, 2016-Southern Utah PostMormons will present an outstanding lecture combo
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Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
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Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
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Resignation Letter to My Family
sam2

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The Book of Mormon Musical comes to South Carolina!
Swearing Elder

Resignation Letter to My Family
INRETROSPECT

Resignation Letter to My Family
oneanother

Utah County CALM meetup for November
BlackSheep2

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October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
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Why I am a Better Mother
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SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
exmoinaz

SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
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The Mormon Mask
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onendagus

Resignation Letter to My Family
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Resignation Letter to My Family
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Resignation Letter to My Family
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 Soon to be ex-mormon Tyler Glenn (of Neon Trees) Trashes Church in New Video
by Jon Marshall
 Jeff Holland in Tempe "furious with people who leave"
by Matter Unorganized
Mormon GA about the First Vision: "We have always been at war with Eastasia."
by Swearing Elder
What Is The Most Offensive Thing You Have Heard/Read Come Out Of The Mouth Of A Profit Or A GA?
by Free2Live
The big J in G's
by Tessa
Conference Mormonism vs The Rest of the Year Mormonism
by Free2Live
Pope Condems Pedofillia. Too Bad Mormon Leaders Do Not Have Courage To
by Strong Free & Thankful
I'm officially out
by Free2Live
Science Hits the W of W Below The Belt--Again!
by Strong Free & Thankful
St. Judas the Traitor 1st Ward - Meetup - Sunday, May 1st, 10:00am at Harmons (Draper, UT) - ***New photo at bottom of thread***
by BITE ME
Portland Oregon Ex-Mormon Meetup - May 15
by LessMon
What might the Church look like in the future?
by Smitty
Dan Dennett on the "Faith" card
by Celestial Wedgie
The temple taught me the value of apostasy
by Morethanmo
My sister escaped and she's poking the hornet nest
by Bruce A Holt
Thanks for the slaughter, God
by Strong Free & Thankful
Richard Turley of Swedish Rescue fame
by Quartersawn
Why do you think the Witnesses never recanted their testimonies?
by LostInParadise
The Several Facets of Truth
by son of perdition
Hornet's nest
by Bruce A Holt 

   http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewforum/5/




 





2015 Conference
 "LEAVING A LEGACY"
 October 16-18
 Doubletree Suites
 SLC, Utah





















 


 
Financial Report for 2011 to Date

 
Financial Report for 2010 to Date

 
Financial Report for 2009

 
Twin Falls Newspaper Article

 
Twin Falls Billboard

 
Financial Report for 2009 to Date





 
The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
 [Sound Thinking]
 
Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
 [Peep Stone!]
 
Native American DNA
 [Post-Mormon Mag.]



 
  Summer Schedule
 [Southern Utah Pos...] 
 
  SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/1)
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 Coming up May 1’st 2016 - Kristyn Decker to lecture!
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 SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (4/3)
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 Imprompu get-together
 [Dead Prophets Soc...] 
 
 SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (3/6)
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 Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series- March 6th, 2016 Author Dave Nelson
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 Open House Meetup: 3/19/16
 [Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
 
 Train ride and picnic Meetup: 2/27/16
 [Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
 
 Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series February 7th, 2016- Joe Rawlins
 [Southern Utah Pos...] 
 
 SF Bay Area Super Bowl Party (Feb 7)
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 Jan 10th, 2016-Southern Utah PostMormons will present an outstanding lecture combo
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 Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by TheDogLady 
Book of Mormon Tories
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Why I am a Better Mother
by antipsicótica 
 Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by Barney 
Resignation Letter to My Family
sam2

Post-mormon Roles
sam2

Post-mormon Roles
former victim

The Book of Mormon Musical comes to South Carolina!
Swearing Elder

Resignation Letter to My Family
INRETROSPECT

Resignation Letter to My Family
oneanother

Utah County CALM meetup for November
BlackSheep2

FACEBOOK INFO
Crissy

FACEBOOK INFO
Barn

October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
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October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
alvie

Why I am a Better Mother
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SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
exmoinaz

SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
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The Mormon Mask
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Las Vegas Meetup--Jazz in the Park Saturday May 10 6:30PM
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Resignation Letter to My Family
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Resignation Letter to My Family
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Guru Busters
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Guru Busters
by Flora4 
Resignation Letter to My Family
Hbush1987



 

       
   

  

Home



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 For New Visitors
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 The Best of PostMormon.org
 























  
 


 
 


 
 


 
 


 
 
 















The Community Forum
## Of Mormons, Postmormons, and the Canyon Between
## The Cost of Liberty
## Spiritual Bedrock
## Leaving the Church, But Not Leaving It Alone
##Why Mormons Can’t Understand the Pain of Being Postmormon
## The Lamanite Issue is Not So Much a Matter of Doctrine as it is a Matter of Credibility
## PR Damage Control Team Responds to BoM changes
## Everything Happens for a Reason and Other Myths
## Understanding Homosexuality
## On the Outside Looking in: Surviving the Temple Marriage of a Loved One
## I'm an active Mormon. Is it OK to be here?
## Why People Leave the Church:The VIDEO
## A Recap of Post-Mormon History
## Resources for Those Investigating All Things LDS
Post-Mormon Magazine
##Native American DNA and it's Impact on Mormonism
## Changing Seasons 
##Why I'm a Better Mother, Now That I'm not a Mormon
Sound Thinking Magazine
##The Lost Book of Abraham
##Beyond Belief 2006
Peep Stone Magazine
## Relief Society President Released After Confession
## Nodding off on the Rise with 175th General Conference 
##Molecule Shortage Lead to Halt of Resurrection
Post-Mormon Scrapbook
## Rough Stone Rolling: A Critical Examination
## Personal Accounts of Leaving Mormonism
 

    
  
 


Our next project
will be announced soon.

Tax exempt status.
 




dave (e_nomo)
NickB
South
Swearing Elder
tangie17
 Logged in: 5
 Not logged in: 71
 Logged in anonymous: 0




(Joined in last 24 hours)
 
Total members: 10252 

   
 
 Jeff Holland in Tempe "furious with people who leave"
by NickB
Mormon GA about the First Vision: "We have always been at war with Eastasia."
by Jon Marshall
Soon to be ex-mormon Tyler Glenn (of Neon Trees) Trashes Church in New Video
by Jon Marshall
What Is The Most Offensive Thing You Have Heard/Read Come Out Of The Mouth Of A Profit Or A GA?
by Free2Live
The big J in G's
by Tessa
Conference Mormonism vs The Rest of the Year Mormonism
by Free2Live
Pope Condems Pedofillia. Too Bad Mormon Leaders Do Not Have Courage To
by Strong Free & Thankful
I'm officially out
by Free2Live
Science Hits the W of W Below The Belt--Again!
by Strong Free & Thankful
St. Judas the Traitor 1st Ward - Meetup - Sunday, May 1st, 10:00am at Harmons (Draper, UT) - ***New photo at bottom of thread***
by BITE ME
Portland Oregon Ex-Mormon Meetup - May 15
by LessMon
What might the Church look like in the future?
by Smitty
Dan Dennett on the "Faith" card
by Celestial Wedgie
The temple taught me the value of apostasy
by Morethanmo
My sister escaped and she's poking the hornet nest
by Bruce A Holt
Thanks for the slaughter, God
by Strong Free & Thankful
Richard Turley of Swedish Rescue fame
by Quartersawn
Why do you think the Witnesses never recanted their testimonies?
by LostInParadise
The Several Facets of Truth
by son of perdition
Hornet's nest
by Bruce A Holt




 



  http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/home





 





2015 Conference
 "LEAVING A LEGACY"
 October 16-18
 Doubletree Suites
 SLC, Utah





















 


 
Financial Report for 2011 to Date

 
Financial Report for 2010 to Date

 
Financial Report for 2009

 
Twin Falls Newspaper Article

 
Twin Falls Billboard

 
Financial Report for 2009 to Date





 
The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
 [Sound Thinking]
 
Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
 [Peep Stone!]
 
Native American DNA
 [Post-Mormon Mag.]



 
  Summer Schedule
 [Southern Utah Pos...] 
 
  SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/1)
 [San Francisco Bay...] 
 
 Coming up May 1’st 2016 - Kristyn Decker to lecture!
 [Southern Utah Pos...] 
 
 SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (4/3)
 [San Francisco Bay...] 
 
 Imprompu get-together
 [Dead Prophets Soc...] 
 
 SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (3/6)
 [San Francisco Bay...] 
 
 Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series- March 6th, 2016 Author Dave Nelson
 [Southern Utah Pos...] 
 
 Open House Meetup: 3/19/16
 [Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
 
 Train ride and picnic Meetup: 2/27/16
 [Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
 
 Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series February 7th, 2016- Joe Rawlins
 [Southern Utah Pos...] 
 
 SF Bay Area Super Bowl Party (Feb 7)
 [San Francisco Bay...] 
 
 Jan 10th, 2016-Southern Utah PostMormons will present an outstanding lecture combo
 [Southern Utah Pos...] 




 Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by TheDogLady 
Book of Mormon Tories
by Chris Sexton 
Why I am a Better Mother
by antipsicótica 
 Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by Barney 
Resignation Letter to My Family
sam2

Post-mormon Roles
sam2

Post-mormon Roles
former victim

The Book of Mormon Musical comes to South Carolina!
Swearing Elder

Resignation Letter to My Family
INRETROSPECT

Resignation Letter to My Family
oneanother

Utah County CALM meetup for November
BlackSheep2

FACEBOOK INFO
Crissy

FACEBOOK INFO
Barn

October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
Starfleet

October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
alvie

Why I am a Better Mother
by aworkinprogress 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
exmoinaz

SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
owned

The Mormon Mask
by Born Free 
Las Vegas Meetup--Jazz in the Park Saturday May 10 6:30PM
onendagus

Resignation Letter to My Family
ShadowSage

Resignation Letter to My Family
ShadowSage

Guru Busters
by Flora4 
Guru Busters
by Flora4 
Resignation Letter to My Family
Hbush1987



 

       
   

  

Home



Our Community






























































































































































Our Library



















Our Exit Stories
 

Member Options














     

    
 


  


 
 Introduction
 For New Visitors
 Mission Statement
 The Best of PostMormon.org
 























    
 

Click the above icon to go to The Community Discussion Forum, which is the most active area on this website. New members are encouraged to jump in and participate in the discussions. As you do, our House Rules ask that you remain courteous and respectful of others.
  
 
 
Click the above icon to visit our World Map where you can connect with other Post-Mormons in your area. If your part of the world doesn't have a map pin, please consider starting a chapter or becoming an official PostMo' contact person for your area. To find out how, click here and follow the instructions.
  
 
 
Clicking this icon will take you to a page in our Post-Mormon Scrapbook, that lists personal accounts of people who have left Mormonism. Many new members love reading these accounts because it helps them realize that there really are others out there who understand, and can relate to their experience.
  
 
 
The Post-Mormon Community relys on donations from people like you to continue its public awareness program. Whether you can contribute $5, $5,000, or more, you are helping us reach out to others like you, but who still think they are all alone. The Post-Mormon Community is a 501(c)(3) tax exempt organization.
  
  
  


















































    
  
 


Our next project
will be announced soon.

Tax exempt status.
 




dave (e_nomo)
NickB
South
Swearing Elder
tangie17
 Logged in: 5
 Not logged in: 71
 Logged in anonymous: 0




(Joined in last 24 hours)
 
Total members: 10252 

   
 
 Jeff Holland in Tempe "furious with people who leave"
by NickB
Mormon GA about the First Vision: "We have always been at war with Eastasia."
by Jon Marshall
Soon to be ex-mormon Tyler Glenn (of Neon Trees) Trashes Church in New Video
by Jon Marshall
What Is The Most Offensive Thing You Have Heard/Read Come Out Of The Mouth Of A Profit Or A GA?
by Free2Live
The big J in G's
by Tessa
Conference Mormonism vs The Rest of the Year Mormonism
by Free2Live
Pope Condems Pedofillia. Too Bad Mormon Leaders Do Not Have Courage To
by Strong Free & Thankful
I'm officially out
by Free2Live
Science Hits the W of W Below The Belt--Again!
by Strong Free & Thankful
St. Judas the Traitor 1st Ward - Meetup - Sunday, May 1st, 10:00am at Harmons (Draper, UT) - ***New photo at bottom of thread***
by BITE ME
Portland Oregon Ex-Mormon Meetup - May 15
by LessMon
What might the Church look like in the future?
by Smitty
Dan Dennett on the "Faith" card
by Celestial Wedgie
The temple taught me the value of apostasy
by Morethanmo
My sister escaped and she's poking the hornet nest
by Bruce A Holt
Thanks for the slaughter, God
by Strong Free & Thankful
Richard Turley of Swedish Rescue fame
by Quartersawn
Why do you think the Witnesses never recanted their testimonies?
by LostInParadise
The Several Facets of Truth
by son of perdition
Hornet's nest
by Bruce A Holt




 



  http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/home



 





2015 Conference
 "LEAVING A LEGACY"
 October 16-18
 Doubletree Suites
 SLC, Utah





















 


 
Financial Report for 2011 to Date

 
Financial Report for 2010 to Date

 
Financial Report for 2009

 
Twin Falls Newspaper Article

 
Twin Falls Billboard

 
Financial Report for 2009 to Date





 
The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
 [Sound Thinking]
 
Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
 [Peep Stone!]
 
Native American DNA
 [Post-Mormon Mag.]



 
  Summer Schedule
 [Southern Utah Pos...] 
 
  SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/1)
 [San Francisco Bay...] 
 
 Coming up May 1’st 2016 - Kristyn Decker to lecture!
 [Southern Utah Pos...] 
 
 SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (4/3)
 [San Francisco Bay...] 
 
 Imprompu get-together
 [Dead Prophets Soc...] 
 
 SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (3/6)
 [San Francisco Bay...] 
 
 Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series- March 6th, 2016 Author Dave Nelson
 [Southern Utah Pos...] 
 
 Open House Meetup: 3/19/16
 [Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
 
 Train ride and picnic Meetup: 2/27/16
 [Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
 
 Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series February 7th, 2016- Joe Rawlins
 [Southern Utah Pos...] 
 
 SF Bay Area Super Bowl Party (Feb 7)
 [San Francisco Bay...] 
 
 Jan 10th, 2016-Southern Utah PostMormons will present an outstanding lecture combo
 [Southern Utah Pos...] 




 Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by TheDogLady 
Book of Mormon Tories
by Chris Sexton 
Why I am a Better Mother
by antipsicótica 
 Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by Barney 
Resignation Letter to My Family
sam2

Post-mormon Roles
sam2

Post-mormon Roles
former victim

The Book of Mormon Musical comes to South Carolina!
Swearing Elder

Resignation Letter to My Family
INRETROSPECT

Resignation Letter to My Family
oneanother

Utah County CALM meetup for November
BlackSheep2

FACEBOOK INFO
Crissy

FACEBOOK INFO
Barn

October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
Starfleet

October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
alvie

Why I am a Better Mother
by aworkinprogress 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
exmoinaz

SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
owned

The Mormon Mask
by Born Free 
Las Vegas Meetup--Jazz in the Park Saturday May 10 6:30PM
onendagus

Resignation Letter to My Family
ShadowSage

Resignation Letter to My Family
ShadowSage

Guru Busters
by Flora4 
Guru Busters
by Flora4 
Resignation Letter to My Family
Hbush1987



 

       
   

  

Home



Our Community






























































































































































Our Library



















Our Exit Stories
 

Member Options














     

    
 


  


 
 Introduction
 For New Visitors
 Mission Statement
 The Best of PostMormon.org
 























  
 


 
 


 
 


 
 


 
 
 


The mission of PostMormon.org is to provide and maintain systems that facilitate the growth and development of a safe and supportive community for those who leave or are considering leaving the Mormon Church.

Welcome home!











































    
  
 


Our next project
will be announced soon.

Tax exempt status.
 




dave (e_nomo)
NickB
South
Swearing Elder
tangie17
 Logged in: 5
 Not logged in: 71
 Logged in anonymous: 0




(Joined in last 24 hours)
 
Total members: 10252 

   
 
 Jeff Holland in Tempe "furious with people who leave"
by NickB
Mormon GA about the First Vision: "We have always been at war with Eastasia."
by Jon Marshall
Soon to be ex-mormon Tyler Glenn (of Neon Trees) Trashes Church in New Video
by Jon Marshall
What Is The Most Offensive Thing You Have Heard/Read Come Out Of The Mouth Of A Profit Or A GA?
by Free2Live
The big J in G's
by Tessa
Conference Mormonism vs The Rest of the Year Mormonism
by Free2Live
Pope Condems Pedofillia. Too Bad Mormon Leaders Do Not Have Courage To
by Strong Free & Thankful
I'm officially out
by Free2Live
Science Hits the W of W Below The Belt--Again!
by Strong Free & Thankful
St. Judas the Traitor 1st Ward - Meetup - Sunday, May 1st, 10:00am at Harmons (Draper, UT) - ***New photo at bottom of thread***
by BITE ME
Portland Oregon Ex-Mormon Meetup - May 15
by LessMon
What might the Church look like in the future?
by Smitty
Dan Dennett on the "Faith" card
by Celestial Wedgie
The temple taught me the value of apostasy
by Morethanmo
My sister escaped and she's poking the hornet nest
by Bruce A Holt
Thanks for the slaughter, God
by Strong Free & Thankful
Richard Turley of Swedish Rescue fame
by Quartersawn
Why do you think the Witnesses never recanted their testimonies?
by LostInParadise
The Several Facets of Truth
by son of perdition
Hornet's nest
by Bruce A Holt




 



  http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/home




 





2015 Conference
 "LEAVING A LEGACY"
 October 16-18
 Doubletree Suites
 SLC, Utah





















 


 
Financial Report for 2011 to Date

 
Financial Report for 2010 to Date

 
Financial Report for 2009

 
Twin Falls Newspaper Article

 
Twin Falls Billboard

 
Financial Report for 2009 to Date





 
The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
 [Sound Thinking]
 
Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
 [Peep Stone!]
 
Native American DNA
 [Post-Mormon Mag.]



 
  Summer Schedule
 [Southern Utah Pos...] 
 
  SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/1)
 [San Francisco Bay...] 
 
 Coming up May 1’st 2016 - Kristyn Decker to lecture!
 [Southern Utah Pos...] 
 
 SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (4/3)
 [San Francisco Bay...] 
 
 Imprompu get-together
 [Dead Prophets Soc...] 
 
 SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (3/6)
 [San Francisco Bay...] 
 
 Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series- March 6th, 2016 Author Dave Nelson
 [Southern Utah Pos...] 
 
 Open House Meetup: 3/19/16
 [Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
 
 Train ride and picnic Meetup: 2/27/16
 [Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
 
 Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series February 7th, 2016- Joe Rawlins
 [Southern Utah Pos...] 
 
 SF Bay Area Super Bowl Party (Feb 7)
 [San Francisco Bay...] 
 
 Jan 10th, 2016-Southern Utah PostMormons will present an outstanding lecture combo
 [Southern Utah Pos...] 




 Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by TheDogLady 
Book of Mormon Tories
by Chris Sexton 
Why I am a Better Mother
by antipsicótica 
 Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by Barney 
Resignation Letter to My Family
sam2

Post-mormon Roles
sam2

Post-mormon Roles
former victim

The Book of Mormon Musical comes to South Carolina!
Swearing Elder

Resignation Letter to My Family
INRETROSPECT

Resignation Letter to My Family
oneanother

Utah County CALM meetup for November
BlackSheep2

FACEBOOK INFO
Crissy

FACEBOOK INFO
Barn

October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
Starfleet

October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
alvie

Why I am a Better Mother
by aworkinprogress 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
exmoinaz

SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
owned

The Mormon Mask
by Born Free 
Las Vegas Meetup--Jazz in the Park Saturday May 10 6:30PM
onendagus

Resignation Letter to My Family
ShadowSage

Resignation Letter to My Family
ShadowSage

Guru Busters
by Flora4 
Guru Busters
by Flora4 
Resignation Letter to My Family
Hbush1987



 

       
   

  

Home



Our Community






























































































































































Our Library



















Our Exit Stories
 

Member Options














     

    
 


  


 
 Introduction
 For New Visitors
 Mission Statement
 The Best of PostMormon.org
 

 Post-Mormons are members of a rapidly growing community of families and individuals who have voluntarily left Mormonism. We choose to no longer base our lives, and the lives of our children, on "truths" dictated by others. We believe that truth is freely available to any honest, diligent seeker regardless of creed, age, race or sexual orientation.

     
We have felt the butterfly’s metamorphosis. Forces that well up from within have compelled us to grow beyond the limits of Mormonism. And so we have become a loosely knit community of friends and support groups, and endeavor to help those like us who also feel the need to explore meaning, purpose and life beyond Mormonism. We celebrate the wonderful diversity of life as we experience as fully as we can our physical and cultural reality. We perceive ourselves as part of a human tapestry that is rich beyond our ability to comprehend, and wonder at this miracle. We have come to realize that there are more ways to do good, and be good, than we can number. What we once perceived as the “strait and narrow way” has broadened to include all ways that promote individual and collective well-being.
 We do not apologize for our inability to fully understand reality or the nature of our own existence. As Albert Einstein said:

"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed."

 Some ask if we are anti-Mormon. Our answer is, no, we are not. We feel we are not because we acknowledge and want to keep all the good that came into our lives through Mormonism. We feel we are not because it's not our purpose to encourage people to leave the Church. We feel we are not because many of our family and friends are Mormons and we certainly are not anti-family and friends. But as an organization, we are open about the Church's misrepresentations and the way in which its dogmatism and authoritarianism have proven detrimental to many individuals, families, and communities. As Winston Churchill once said, "Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things."
 We do not advocate another form of Mormonism or any other religion and believe that loving one's neighbor begins with giving up the claim to have special access to truth. We feel that arrogance attends the illusion of “knowing the truth” and that such arrogance leads to a narrow-minded tribalism that impedes personal growth and fosters a divided community. Some of us choose to continue their spiritual journey through traditional religious means and others of us identify ourselves as atheistic or agnostic. We respect these choices as we do those of the well-informed among our family and friends who choose to remain traditional Mormons. We feel sad for those who choose ignorance of any kind and strongly disagree with the few within Mormonism who encourage ignorance and spread misinformation.
 Life is wonderful. We are overcome by feelings of gratitude for the glimpses we occasionally have of its majesty and mystery. And we revel in the opportunity to connect with each other and those of many other walks of life in ways more satisfying than anything we had previously experienced. We would welcome the opportunity to get to know you and invite you to join in the conversation in The Community Forum on this site.
 Sincerely,


  
 


 
 


 
 


 
 


 
 
 


















































    
  
 


Our next project
will be announced soon.

Tax exempt status.
 




dave (e_nomo)
NickB
South
Swearing Elder
tangie17
 Logged in: 5
 Not logged in: 71
 Logged in anonymous: 0




(Joined in last 24 hours)
 
Total members: 10252 

   
 
 Jeff Holland in Tempe "furious with people who leave"
by NickB
Mormon GA about the First Vision: "We have always been at war with Eastasia."
by Jon Marshall
Soon to be ex-mormon Tyler Glenn (of Neon Trees) Trashes Church in New Video
by Jon Marshall
What Is The Most Offensive Thing You Have Heard/Read Come Out Of The Mouth Of A Profit Or A GA?
by Free2Live
The big J in G's
by Tessa
Conference Mormonism vs The Rest of the Year Mormonism
by Free2Live
Pope Condems Pedofillia. Too Bad Mormon Leaders Do Not Have Courage To
by Strong Free & Thankful
I'm officially out
by Free2Live
Science Hits the W of W Below The Belt--Again!
by Strong Free & Thankful
St. Judas the Traitor 1st Ward - Meetup - Sunday, May 1st, 10:00am at Harmons (Draper, UT) - ***New photo at bottom of thread***
by BITE ME
Portland Oregon Ex-Mormon Meetup - May 15
by LessMon
What might the Church look like in the future?
by Smitty
Dan Dennett on the "Faith" card
by Celestial Wedgie
The temple taught me the value of apostasy
by Morethanmo
My sister escaped and she's poking the hornet nest
by Bruce A Holt
Thanks for the slaughter, God
by Strong Free & Thankful
Richard Turley of Swedish Rescue fame
by Quartersawn
Why do you think the Witnesses never recanted their testimonies?
by LostInParadise
The Several Facets of Truth
by son of perdition
Hornet's nest
by Bruce A Holt




 



  http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/home