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← The Friday Column: Governing Body Issues Apology to Abuse Victims, Announces Radical Policy Changes
The Friday Column: The Annual Jehovah’s Witness Convention: a Pseudo-utopia →
 
The Friday Column: Watchtower facing financial stormwaters?
Posted on April 8, 2016
 
JWMazeI honestly thought it was a joke.
When I first saw the image opposite being circulated online, I felt that it had to be a piece of satirical art, created by an Ex-JW. I mean, I knew Watchtower had been increasingly stooping to lower and lower standards with increasing desperation to wring every last penny out of their increasingly impoverished flock, but…come on!
Surely not even Watchtower could be so crass and unsubtle as to create a child’s game where the whole object of the game was to donate money to them!
Turns out, I was wrong.
The puzzle was a genuine piece of Watchtower art, although I was rather amused when former Jehovah’s Witnesses Tony Brock posted a slightly altered version of the game onto Facebook, to present his own suggestion of where the child’s donation might ACTUALLY be going if it made it through the maze:
1934537_1610083935981221_8189571102036436519_n
 
Even active and faithful Jehovah’s Witnesses will be aware of the truth of much of this cartoon. The Governing Body have increasingly been flaunting their jewellery, expensive suits and designer watches on their JW Broadcasting appearances, and the extravagance of the new Watchtower headquarters with it’s remote control lake is hardly a secret.
Yet the last item on the list; the increasingly painful legal damages that Watchtower is having to pay, mostly centred around Child Abuse policies, that one that will be unfamiliar to many Witnesses.
Ironically, this unknown and hidden aspect of Watchtower’s financial outgoings might be the one that increasingly comes to dominate their fortunes. According to the Australian Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse, Watchtower’s policies and doctrines come together in a “perfect storm” to create an environment for sexual predetors to molest children, undetected and unreported.
The thing with storms is this;
Storms are expensive, y’all.
Storm Damage
Branch committee coordinator Terrence O'Brien was accused of intentionally trying to mislead the Commission
Branch committee coordinator Terrence O’Brien

Day 7 of the Australian Royal Commission investigation into Watchtower saw this exchange between the Head of Watchtower Australia Terrance O’Brien and Justice Peter McClellan about the issue of financial recompense.

McClellan:You know that the Commission’s been looking at the issue of redress, I assume?
O’Brien: I do, yes.
McClellan: And it is fairly clear that the Commission will be recommending a response which brings together all of the institutions where there may have been problems, to contribute their fair share ‐ you understand that?
O’Brien: I recall that from the closed hearing we had with yourself.
Financial Redress has been a key area for the ARC. It’s hard to argue that organisations who failed in their duty of care and exposed children to sexual abuse should not be required to give some measure of financial compensation; not only to address the significant medical costs involved in treating the physical and mental damage suffered, but also to show recognition of the wrong done. The ARC has discussed this idea in detail, even presenting models as to how it might work:

“…relevant criteria could be severity of abuse – 40 per cent, impact of abuse – 40 per cent and distinctive institutional factors – 20 per cent. Other approaches are possible. Average payments of $50,000, $65,000 and $80,000 are modelled.”
In other words, this model suggests that the severity, the impact of the abuse, and the degree of specific failings of the Institution should be taken into account. It then suggests some average payments.

McCellan: Would you recommend that the church join in such a scheme?
O’Brien: I don’t know whether I would recommend that the church join in with other organisations, but certainly that we have some redress scheme of our own to care for victims who are Jehovah’s Witnesses.  I would agree with that.
McClellan: Why wouldn’t you recommend that you join with others so that there is a uniform response across the country?
O’Brien: If I may just indulge, your Honour, when we had the closed meeting with yourself and others, that was a matter that I think it was almost universally felt as a last option by those who were assembled, for a variety of reasons.  I think some may feel that ‐ would it be fair on smaller organisations and unfair on the ‐ or, rather, unfair on smaller ones, fairer on the larger ones?  To manage it I would see it as a much greater difficulty than for the individual organisation to provide their own scheme.
McClellan: You must have a different recollection to me.
This is part of a longer exchange which demonstrated how Watchtower is frantically trying to pour water on the concept of a financial redress scheme administered by an outside authority, with agreed and standardised amounts for victims.
Why would Watchtower be so afraid of a system like that becoming law, as is very possible in the next couple of years in Australia?
Well, remember what O’Brien said: Would it be “fair” on the smaller organisations?
That sounds like a reasonable concern until one realises that Watchtower is a “smaller” organisation unlike any other the Commission have investigated.
Watchtower: A unique stormfront
sex-abuse-survivorUnlike an organisation that simply reports to the police as soon as it becomes aware of an allegation of child sexual abuse, Watchtower policy not only refuses to do this unless legally required, but also requires the elders to start investigating the allegation themselves to determine guilt in a bronze-age religious court, thus opening themselves up to far greater liability than a regular church or group.
Additionally, it’s been clearly demonstrated during the ARC hearings that the process the elders are mandated to use is virtually guaranteed to cause further needless trauma to the survivor.
Therefore, it’s significantly more probable that cases linked to Watchtower (such as the 1,006 Witness molesters the ARC has already identified) will be eligible for compensation when compared to cases from other organisations of a similar size.
Keep that in mind as we craft a theoretical scenario that admittedly makes a lot of assumptions, some of which will fall in Watchtower’s favour for the sake of fairness.
Lets assume only one victim per abuser (and not, say the four victims involved in the case of BCG, who gave testimony at the Royal Commission). That gives us 1,006 potential claims identified by the Royal Commission.
Now assume that out of those 1,006 potential claims, only half of the victims are found to be eligible for compensation and in a position to claim.
Now assume that only half of those survivors are found to have directly experienced additional trauma due to Watchtowers’s policies, and qualify for a higher sum than a default of $65,000. Lets say the higher figure is $80,000.
So you’ve got 250 times 65,000 = 16,250,000 and 250 times 80,000 = 20,000,000
Now add those two figures together and what do you get?
An eye watering $36,250,000!
And remember, this scenario is making some assumptions that are significantly more favourable to Watchtower than the evidence suggests is reasonable.
Recurring Storms: No end in sight.
Angus Stewart, senior council at the Royal Commission, has delivered damning summary findings detailing Watchtower's mishandling of child abuse
Angus Stewart, senior council at the Royal Commission, has delivered damning summary findings detailing Watchtower’s mishandling of child abuse

But we’re not done yet, because another fascinating glimpse under the hood of Watchtower Australia was given on Day 7 when Watchtower Lawyer Vince Toole admitted under questioning the following statistic about his role at the Watchtower Australia Legal Desk, taking reports of child sexual abuse from congregations across the country.

Angus Stewart SC: You say you’ve done this exclusively for, did you say, two years or two and a half years?
Vince Toole: Yeah, approximately two years, I’ve been taking the calls myself.
Stewart: These are calls about allegations of child sexual abuse?
Toole: Yes.
Stewart: And how many such calls have you taken in that period, would you estimate?
Toole: I couldn’t tell you, but we probably get three, sometimes four, a month.
Again, let’s be generous to Watchtower. Let’s assume four new cases of abuse a month, but say that each of those reports involve only one abuse survivor, and that of those four survivors a month, only two are eligible for and desirous of compensation. Again, lets assume that the $65,000 default sum is the one decided upon every time because by some miracle Watchtower managed not to exacerbate suffering when they indulged in their demonstrably flawed judicial process.
So 2 victims a month is 24 victims a year.
So that’s 24 times 65,000…
…$1,560,000 per year!
Now, there are around 80,000 witnesses in Australia. Remember, that figure will include people who are fading or who have faded, and thus do not donate, as well as rank and file JW’s who are either very poor or simply forget to donate a lot of the time. But assume for argument’s sake that every single one of the 80,000 donates money of around $20 a month.
Divide the arguably conservative sum of $1,560,000 by the arguably generous figure of 80,000 publishers.
$19.5 dollars, right?
That means that if a witness donates $20 a month, almost 1/12 of his entire yearly donation will go simply to paying the annual child abuse bill.
That’s AFTER they spend around two years paying off the initial lump sum of  $36,250,000.
Granted, these figures are theoretical, using models and sums yet to be agreed and passed into law. Much could happen between then and now.
Nonetheless, the scenarios are plausible, and it’s clear if you read between the lines of O’Brien’s testimony that Watchtower also thinks they are plausible, and are very worried as a result.
Which is probably one of the reasons why I strongly suspect that the crazy maze at the top of this article won’t be the last piece of low-brow piggy-bank shaking we will see from an increasingly beleaguered Watchtower.
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← The Friday Column: Governing Body Issues Apology to Abuse Victims, Announces Radical Policy Changes
The Friday Column: The Annual Jehovah’s Witness Convention: a Pseudo-utopia →
 
108 Responses to The Friday Column: Watchtower facing financial stormwaters?


Newer Comments →
 
 pj wilcox says:

 April 8, 2016 at 12:49 pm
 
Thank You, great reporting.I appreciate your updates each week.
Reply
 
 
 AAzevedo says:

 April 8, 2016 at 1:05 pm
 
It boggles my mind that WTBS refuses to change their stand on this..I served as an elder for 10 years and remember recieving their guidelines for Child abuse…as secretary I was the second one to recieve the correspondence…I remember reading this letter at home after the meeting and telling myself that I did not want any part of this…I questioned the legality of it all but more important the MORALITY of adhering to these orders being barked from head office. I told myself that this is NOT something I would do….at one point in time we must ask ourselves if we are showing the love unto others the way we should be but keeping quiet on child molestation and not helping the real victims and their families. this is the first time i have written on this blog..and I am disgusted to read that after being 10 years removed from the “TRUTH” that things are still the same if not worse as they now hold kangaroo courts and with hunts on the victims and their families! I tend to wonder what Jesus would do…Hmmmm… I think we know how he would ! God bless the victims and families.
Reply
 
 Mama Joy says:

 April 8, 2016 at 2:00 pm
 
Thank you for speaking out on this injustice against children.
Reply
 
 
 ScotWm says:

 April 8, 2016 at 7:02 pm
 
Regarding: “It boggles my mind that WTBS refuses to change their stand on this…” (Pedophile Protection Policies.)
If the Governing Body changed the Watchtower PPP, it would be an admission of wrongdoing which could result in even more lawsuits and unfavorable judgments. The Watchtower Governing Body members have proclaimed themselves to be Guardians Of Doctrine (GOD). It is unlikely they will change any doctrine that will expose them to additional lawsuits.
Reply
 
 
 Eric Arthur Blair says:

 April 8, 2016 at 9:46 pm
 
This is perhaps the ultimate proof that it is not God’s organisation. They are in a no win situation. If Jesus really had been directing them all this time, why would he have let it get to this point? Wouldn’t he have anticipated this years ago and “refined” the organisation and its policies ahead of time?
If they were to admit now that they have had the child abuse policy wrong all this time and were to adjust it (rather than become more entrenched in their faulty position and strengthen their resolve to fight efforts at reform like they are actually doing) it could very well bankrupt them. The same goes for shunning, false predictions, faulty medical advice and other false teachings and practices. An apology and an admission of guilt and culpability now would only open the floodgates of litigation even further. Instead they are trying to slow down that litigation pipeline as much as possible, by any means, compounding their mistakes with more lies and deceptions, in order to make sure the bank balance doesn’t run out before the settlements do.
The fact that these are all unchristian practices goes without saying, but it also proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that God has not blessed or backed this organisation for the simple reason that if this was really “the truth”, all of these issues would have been anticipated and resolved decades ago.
Instead they now find themselves in a position where they can’t go backwards without going bankrupt, and can only go forward by persisting in false, damaging and unchristian practices and policies which are becoming increasingly untenable and self-destructive.
This is further evidenced by their attempts to appeal to those who have walked away to “return to Jehovah”. The stats show that it is getting harder to make new converts in the modern era where Watchtower is easily exposed for what they are by that powerful truth serum, the Internet. Anybody contacted today only needs to Google JWs and discover the WHOLE truth about them. So instead they are trying to recall those who still have some emotional attachment to the organisation; perhaps through family and friends, personal history, sentimentality, fear, guilt, or all of the above. This smacks of desperation, but it is also evidence that they are losing the battle. Instead of reforming they are trying to tighten their grip. Either way, it is clear that God is certainly not backing, let alone “speeding up” this work.
In fact, if this really was God’s organisation, JWs would have set the benchmark on all these issues long ago, especially child abuse, and this really would differentiate them from “the world” and all the other “false religions” they condem so vehemently. Instead of now treading the same legal path of all those they have persecuted, they should have been head and shoulders above them all (especially the head!)
Reply
 
 Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:

 April 10, 2016 at 2:45 am
 
You are missing the point! By the way, what is the truth? Do you think you are more intelligent than the GB is? You are not teaching them as they know very well what they do? False predictions, they know better than you!
Things are simple: “Victory” is more important than “truth”! Consider what they wrote about America back in 1955:
*** w55 5/1 p. 275 Vacuum in Ideals? ***
 […] It believes that you can’t fool all the people all the time—but that you have to respect the politicians and promoters who manage to do so most of the time.”
Reply
 
 
 Big B says:

 April 10, 2016 at 8:44 am
 
Eric:
Everything you mentioned in your comments is absolutely true. This has been nothing but a evangelical Adventist “Millerite” throw-back from its inception. Just as the Millerite movement died out during the “Great Disappointment” back in the mid-1800’s so the Watchtower Adventism is now in its convulsive death throws.
It can’t apologize and say they were wrong because it would prove that they never had “God’s backing” much less be “His spirit directed organization”. They cannot retreat from their current position and lose all credibility. It’s now their policy to quote Admiral Farragut at Mobile Bay, “damn the torpedoes – full speed ahead”.
As the entire “Organization” crumbles around them they, like the Nazi hierarchy in Berlin, have taken a “bunker mentality” grasping at any fantasy (read:New Light) to pull themselves out of the jaws of certain oblivion. Their unreliable “credibility” and spiritual bankruptcy is now evident for the entire world to see. All one need do is, as you said, check out the internet.
Reply
 
 
 ScotWm says:

 April 10, 2016 at 11:34 am
 
Eric Arthur Blair says: “An apology and an admission of guilt and culpability now would only open the floodgates of litigation even further.”
It appears that the Watchtower’s current strategy is to stall the lawsuits by filing legal appeals and motions. The Watchtower accounting department has probably analyzed the costs involved in posting bonds for legal judgments and the ultimate payment of these judgments.
These projected payouts are then weighed against the Watchtower’s multi-billion dollar portfolio of real estate investment properties, contributions and other investments. At this time, the Watchtower legal and accounting departments have likely determined that slowly liquidating Watchtower assets will allow them to remain solvent for many years.
However, the one thing that can totally destroy the Watchtower’s positive financial position would be the loss of its tax exempt status. And with the number of government investigations underway, this tax exempt status may be threatened.
At this time, there is probably major disagreement among Watchtower leaders. Those who are totally deluded may actually believe that Jehovah’s earthly organization will never be destroyed by governmental forces. The leaders who know that the Watchtower is a total scam may be running scared, knowing that their days are numbered.
Accountants and lawyers are in a perfect position to steal the Watchtower’s ill gotten loot. Will those running scared embezzle millions in Watchtower assets as the walls come tumbling down?
Reply
 
 Will says:

 April 11, 2016 at 6:34 am
 
I think the Watchtower saw this coming a few years ago. The old “light” was that false religion would be destroyed and somehow Jehovah’s people would be saved and eventually the government’s would go after them. Now, it’s all fair game. I believe it was a 2013 WT that brought that out. So now that their tax status in question and if they lose it, WT will say it’s persecution and will reference the 2013 WT and will say they predicted it and all Witnesses will say the end is coming because the governments are going after them. I could be wrong about the new-ish light, but that’s what I recall.
Reply
 
 dee2 says:

 April 11, 2016 at 1:24 pm
 
According to WT theology the governments/UN will go after the JWs LAST – God will put it into the hearts of the governments/UN to destroy all other religions first and leave the JWs standing. The JWs must be the only religion left standing in order for Armageddon to strike.
It seems however, that God has got his schedule mixed up based on the punitive actions which may be taken against the JWs. God seems to be suffering from amnesia – he has forgotten that he should put his thought into the hearts of the governments to destroy the JWs LAST instead of first………lol.

 
 
 Grace says:

 April 11, 2016 at 4:34 pm
 
And now they are apparently saying that the tribulation is happening now. The naive follower will see the tribulation of the WT & will bury themselves deep into cult loyalty. Hopefully, they won’t be as silly as the Heavens Gates Cult & wait for the mother ship to save them.

 
 
 Covert Fade says:

 April 12, 2016 at 12:02 am
 
Hi Grace.
 Have they actually said that in print, or was it a talk? I’ve not heard that reported yet.

 
 
 
 Big B says:

 April 12, 2016 at 7:54 am
 
Can anyone say, “offshore accounts” or secret “Swiss bank accounts”. I think you are correct in thinking so ScotWm. I can believe these scoundrels would do exactly that if they haven’t already absconded the monies. After all, who is watching the Watchtower, has anyone seen a copy of their accounts reports?
Pleading poverty and begging for more funds while building their new multi-million dollar compound at Walkill, NY and purchasing more property in Florida hardly proves hardship to me. Just hiding the funds from the abuse victims and if that’s the case, failing miserably.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/281355/florida-gold-coast-latest-watchtower-real-estate?page=1
Reply
 
 Grace says:

 April 12, 2016 at 1:22 pm
 
Covert Fade,
No print, just hearsay from the Australian Zone visit.

 
 
 
 
 
 
 Chiafade says:

 April 8, 2016 at 1:08 pm
 
Watchtower is paranoid and greedy. Since they are being backed into a corner I think they will take desperate measures to insulate themselves. Such as closing the Australia branch and moving their funds to some other country where it can’t be touched. They are a slippery bunch.
Reply
 
 ScotWm says:

 April 8, 2016 at 8:30 pm
 
The Watchtower could decide to leave Australia due to the increased “persecution” they are currently experiencing. The only problem is that the Watchtower cult might have its real estate assets seized by the government as collateral on unpaid court judgments.
Reply
 
 isawthelight says:

 April 9, 2016 at 2:23 pm
 
These old 8 roosters are only respected by the flock who would not believe anything negative about that gb. But I am sure that justice will triumph. And if justice does not triumph then how can we really believe in an almighty God? The watchtower must fall. I have more respect for Isis than I do them. I know Isis is a killer and they boast about it.But the watchtower tries to put on a show of being righteous but they are just a dam group of men using religion as a front.That means they are more wicked than Isis. I also have more respect for the mob than I do Jehovah witnesses.
Reply
 
 Bad Penny says:

 April 14, 2016 at 6:04 am
 
8 Roosters! – Did Donald Trump really join the GB??
 His son-in-law has apparently purchased some Brooklyn estate for a considerable sum, maybe a connection there?
Reply
 
 
 
 
 
 Johnship says:

 April 8, 2016 at 1:26 pm
 
As one who has been in this org 50 years and seeing the made push to do everything on line with the blue square .i think they will separate from the watchtower completly and be just jw .org. already on the mags and any leaflets the WT logo is getting smaller and smaller. Soon there will be new light and they will come out with some “scripural reason ” to separate and avoid responsibility for the pay outs …
Reply
 
 Jan Hoekstra says:

 April 8, 2016 at 1:36 pm
 
Sinking ship it is. Only in 2014 i started to see all ‘mistakes’ , manipulations and mankind religion. Nothing to do with Jesus or Jehovah God. But all religions are in the same, only mankind
Reply
 
 
 Big B says:

 April 12, 2016 at 8:08 am
 
Johnship:
Bingo!
It is now and has always “been about the money”. Just like the Vatican, monies in and bs* policy (read: doctrine) out. The Watchtower attorney has said it outright “we’re just like the Catholic Church”. A very successful “extortion business” if there ever was one. Between the pedophilia cover ups, racketeering and extorting contributions from their adherents for over 1,000 years what more successful business plan could the Society follow?
Reply
 
 
 
 Jan Hoekstra says:

 April 8, 2016 at 1:33 pm
 
There are some millionaires who claim to be a JW. So persons like ‘Prince” who have A. Morris III design clothes and shoes can easy pay …….They have properties enough the GB world-wide and should sell. People can have the meetings at home they go to tell. In Tbilisi , Georgia they sack 30 persons from the local ‘Bethel’ branch. No work, no house , no money. And people are afraid to speak about such unmorality.
Reply
 
 
 Susan says:

 April 8, 2016 at 1:34 pm
 
Excellent article as always. The redress amounts you mentioned are definitely plausible – no wonder the organization is so money crazy these days!
Reply
 
 
 Andrew Haas says:

 April 8, 2016 at 1:55 pm
 
Had a discussion with a Witness a month ago. As I’m disfellowshipped and considered an apostate this Witness was not following Organisational guidelines. This Witness was kind and loving to me and keen to know how I and my family were going. There was no condemnation or preaching just a genuine interest. I was thinking how nice it would be if there was a policy that allowed a loving exchange. Anyway during the discussion the Witness was saying that at almost every meeting there is a scripture read and an appeal for more money to support the worldwide work. As a result this Witness said that he has not contributed for months and there is murmuring in the congregation about “what are they doing with the money”? The rank and file are stirring. There will be a mass exodus. I planted a seed and explained to him that there is a need for money to pay compensation to child abuse victims. He had not heard of this so it’s obvious that there is a huge Information filter in every Kingdom Hall. It’s just a matter of time. I made my way from JW to Christian and absolutely love my freedom in Christ. Peace to all.
Reply
 
 
 Eeee says:

 April 8, 2016 at 1:55 pm
 
On the issue of money, being that I have been following the current trends on the organization. We attended a circuit assembly on Sunday, in Nigeria, one of south south state . Before the morning session was concluded, the circuit account servant came over to announce the circuit account. We were about 3800 in attendance. He announced about the deficit the circuit had before the convention, the announce the surplus as a result of contributions during the convention and then said something I expected him to say. That based on per capital income, based the total number in the audience, the contribution that they expected from us should be over a million naira. Most of the people in attendance laugh and sincerely, I know that they didn’t understand what that meant or what the Watchtower was actually doing. I believe something similar has been done in other circuit.
 I remember telling the person next to me that they are indirectly telling us that we have not contributed enough.
I know what the organization has turned to, and really from they history, they weren’t that good. But they are really turning into something else.
Reply
 
 dee2 says:

 April 8, 2016 at 6:51 pm
 
Eeee,
The following information may be of interest regarding the Circuit Assembly deficit and contributions:
– Why is there always a Deficit at the Circuit Assembly of Jehovah’s Witnesses:https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=share&v=APb1RpfjCrA
– Circuit Accounts Servants Confesses how the SCAM WORKS:http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/62001/circuit-accounts-servants-confesses-how-scam-works?page=1&size=20
Reply
 
 Winston Smith says:

 April 10, 2016 at 8:30 pm
 
100% correct on the circuit account scam. I used to work in accounting at the circuit assembly level. There are some expenses like electricity, upkeep, and maintenance to be sure, so there is some level of legitimacy. But also consider that since they are so strict as to what these buildings can be used for, you are paying to maintain a building that sits empty more than half the year.
WS
Reply
 
 
 
 Homer says:

 April 8, 2016 at 11:09 pm
 
Hey Eeee,
I’m from Nigeria too and a live in the same geographical region. I’m happy to know there’s someone like me here. Since I read Raymond Franz’s books, I have concluded this can’t be “Jehovah’s organization”. But that’s a tough act.
I’m still a ministerial servant, but I haven’t been out in field service since my questioning from elders came some months ago. And I was a regular pioneer and was planning to go to School for Kingdom Evangelizers, but I’ve realized that’s a shaky career…if at all it is a career, with all their financial woes.
I’m held captive by my family, as I’m a third generation witness. Can’t leave, at least not now. I’m on some sort of suspension and marking because of my questioning the elders — it’s been over six months since I last stepped on the platform. It’s tough for the witnesses here because I was always very active and they’re asking questions, at least since they’ve not heard about me being reproved or disfellowshipped as those are the people who don’t get to climb the platform (most times).
Not speaking from the platform is sweet relief for me. One elder gave a talk on the outline “How Can You Find The True Religion?” and he mentioned that witnesses have not been involved in child abuse cases, like Catholic Church has been, and have had to pay out millions of dollars and even close some parishes.
I turned to look at everyone…since I was standing near the notice board and it’s at the back of the hall. They all shook their heads in agreement. I couldn’t imagine preaching that from the platform with all I know, and I couldn’t help but think how Watchtower has kept us all ignorant, all these years, and people call it the “best education”, or “sumptuous spiritual food”.
It’s just sad how gullible people are. They believe the governing body cannot lie to them and keep boasting about how dynamic the organization is. And I realize it’s dynamic to them because that’s all they know and can see.
Sorry if I veered off topic. Have a lot to say that could fill up a book.
Reply
 
 
 
 Mama Joy says:

 April 8, 2016 at 1:56 pm
 
Is that a typo or are they serious, when they said “give money to JEHOVAH”????
Reply
 
 
 Markie says:

 April 8, 2016 at 2:25 pm
 
One thing I have to say is that those dudes on JW broadcasting are not wearing good suits. If you would notice how most of the suits drape over their chubby bodies it indicates that they are cheap fused suits and not more expensive canvassed ones. Also their ties look like they are from the 1990s. I would venture to say that none of them are wearing Brioni, Isaia or even Canalis. They are probably hand me downs from Joseph A Banks. I don’t think any of them would know what a good suit was anyhow.
Reply
 
 
 SwimmingWild says:

 April 8, 2016 at 2:28 pm
 
The insurer’s are covering the abuse compensation costs for the Chirch of England – so is this possibly the same for JW’s?
Is it possible that they are not directly paying for these claims?
SwimmingWild
Reply
 
 
 Keith Enno says:

 April 8, 2016 at 2:47 pm
 
Excellent work CovertFade
 from my post earlier this month..
 Today on 31 March 2016, it was reported that the Christian Brothers had resolved 205 claims of historical abuse in the last year alone, with payments exceeding $20 million.
 Now if we extend this average payout of AU$100,000.00 to the Watchtower Society’s perpetrator list of over one thousand documented pedophiles and assume they abuse five victims (possibly about average for a pedophile) then we have 5,000 victims and with an average payout as listed above this amounts to AU$500,000,000.00.
 Five Hundred Million Dollars.
 Now everyone knows why the WTS is shuffling (hiding) assets faster than the eye can see.
 Now everyone knows why the WTS is begging for cash.
 Perhaps instead of trying to escape their obligations they should imitate Christ by facing up to the overwhelming evidence and trying to do something for the victims, instead of denying, prevaricating, postponing, delaying, disputing etc., all tactics designed to wear down any claimants and let’s face it, the adverse mental health issues that are occurring because of all this denial & obfuscation are very real.
 So there we have it. FIVE HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS in Australia alone. This would have to make the “two witness” rule the most expensive misapplication of all time.
It will be interesting to see what the effect will be when compensation is enshrined in the legislation the Royal Commission is proposing. We believe it will encourage many more to come forward as they will be able to do so confidentially and without threat or fear of the Watchtower Society as it will all be assessed by an independent and supportive body. Bring it on!It will be interesting to see what the effect will be when compensation is enshrined in the legislation the Royal Commission is proposing. We believe it will encourage many more to come forward as they will be able to do so confidentially and without threat or fear of the Watchtower Society as it will all be assessed by an independent and supportive body. Bring it on!
Reply
 
 
 Keith Enno says:

 April 8, 2016 at 2:51 pm
 
Obviously taking the extreme position here.
 The final result will lie somewhere between the two.
 Whatever the result it will be “eye watering”.
Reply
 
 
 rikos says:

 April 8, 2016 at 3:37 pm
 
let them taking ever their underweares because these people are useless they do nothing good only harming people. lets hope other countries wake up and do what australia did.
Reply
 
 
 Markie says:

 April 8, 2016 at 4:52 pm
 
Covert fade sorry but this is pretty flawed logic. Wishful thinking perhaps? If anybody really objectively analyzed what you wrote they would be able to see your assuming way too much to come to the conclusion you want.
Reply
 
 John Redwood says:

 April 8, 2016 at 6:39 pm
 
Markie
Which part of the logic do you feel is flawed? You make a bold statement about flawed logic and wishful thinking, but with zero specifics. If you want to counter argue a point, please be our guest – but make a point to your argument, or your statement is without any merit.
Cheers,
John R
Reply
 
 Markie says:

 April 9, 2016 at 1:16 pm
 
My point is not to draw an argument but to point out that your logic is not very sound. For example, you assume that 2 out of every three or four calls a month that the Society gets in Australia the Watchtower would be found culpable of some type of maleficence. What basis do you have to assume that? Or is that just wishful thinking? What if it was a false accusation, or the elders told the victim to go to the authorities? Or the case had simply nothing to do with congregation. From my experience it is very difficult if not impossible to prove that a third party should be held responsible for the actions of others.
 I do believe that the two witness rule is ridiculous in these cases for obvious reasons. But it is my understanding that the direction is now that victim can go to the authorities if they choose to do so. And I am not sure if that wasn’t always the case.
 And don’t get me wrong, I do believe that if the society is somehow culpable of some type of wrong doing in regards to child abuse they should be held responsible. I just don’t believe it is always the Societies fault. They are just the ones with deep pockets.
Ciao
Reply
 
 Covert Fade says:

 April 11, 2016 at 3:56 am
 
Markie, to your point on the 2 out of 4 calls a month being potentially liable for compensation:
I stated from the outset that was an assumption for the sake of argument. However, it believe it is a reasonable assumption based on the following facts:
1: The odds of a child making a false accusation are very low. Research it if you’re not aware of this.
2: It is safe to assume that any report being passed to Bethel will be processed according to Watchtower policy (Two Witness rule, non reporting unless legally binding, untrained elders interviewing a vulnerable victim etc)
3: These policies have been found by the ARC to unequivocally case additional harm to the abuse survivor.
You point about the victim still being able to report is addressed in the ARC: Some victims simply cannot report (a lone child living with her lone parent abuser, for one) or feel that they cannot do so due to pressure from others. Again, this was all demonstrated during the ARC hearings. And even if the victim DOES go to the police, they will still have been subjected to harmful Watchtower processes in the meantime which would qualify them for compensation under the proposed scheme.
Reply
 
 
 
 
 SIRIUS says:

 April 8, 2016 at 7:00 pm
 
@Markie
>>>this is pretty flawed logic.
An opinion piece is suddenly flawed? Seriously?
>>>If anybody really objectively analyzed what you wrote …
I am somebody! It’s objective and there’s enough due diligence to make the reasoning sound from Covert Fade perspective.
Now, what do you know the others don’t?
IMHO
dogstar
PS Great write up Covert Fade on the available data.
Reply
 
 
 Covert Fade says:

 April 9, 2016 at 2:58 am
 
Markie.
Happy to have someone point out the specific flaws in the article, but in order to do that you’d have to, y’know, actually point out the specific flaws and not just wave a vague hand of disagreement in the general vicinity of an actual point.
Over to you: Please proceed with you objective analysis.
Reply
 
 Markie says:

 April 9, 2016 at 5:53 pm
 
Replied to the wrong person, see reply to John Redwood. Not trying to cause an argument but your analysis is certainly not objective. Maybe you were not trying to be objective. I don’t know.
I think it was brought out by the Royal Commission that there was 1000 cases of child abuse reported over the last 50 years or so. Maybe I am wrong but it appears that most disgruntled exJWs believe that the Society was somehow culpable in all these cases but the reality is that we don’t have any idea what has happened in any of these cases. What they were about at all.
 I always get a chuckle when Brothers or the Society mention the Catholic church and their problem with pedophile priests. The truth of the matter is that there are sick people everywhere regardless of what religion they may or may not be. And yes the JWs have their share of problems just like any other group of people.
 I am sure there has been many cases mishandled by the elders, cover ups and so on but I know of one incident that happened to a close friend of mine in the 1980’s and the MS that did it ended up disfellowshipped and spent time in jail. I think that case was handled correctly by the elders.
Reply
 
 Chiafade says:

 April 9, 2016 at 9:10 pm
 
I’m sorry but I have to chime in your last couple of sentences. You said “I know of one incident that happened to a close friend of mine in the 1980’s and the MS that did it ended up disfellowshipped and spent jail time. I think the elders handled that one correctly”.
Unless YOU served on that body you don’t know that it was the elders who did anything besides just disfellowshipping the MS. Sounds like the same kind of wishful thinking that you are accusing covert fade of.
I say this because 1. I served as an elder for over 10 years and I can guarantee you that the elders did not come to a unanimous agreement to call the police. NO WAY NO HOW. 2. Because the guidelines forbid them from doing such.
Now let’s consider the more likely scenario’s. The victim or their family contacted the police. The matter became well known and was gossiped about leaving the elders no choice but to act judicially. ONE of the elders called the police. Remember ONE not the body, which means he acted independently. Any of these scenario’s is completely plausible. You can say I wasn’t there but neither were you. Or did your friend tell you that the elders phoned the police? Although I was not there I am intimately familiar with the inner workings of judicial committees and how they work. So your conclusion on the elders “handling things correctly” is based on hearsay.
Be careful when use the term disgruntled ex-JW. Any ex-JW has a good reason to be a little pissed with the treatment the org dishes out on a daily basis with impunity. Then you follow it up by saying that “don’t know what happened with those thousand cases”. That’s true, but do you know what we are aware of ? That watchtower had a record of all of these individuals. So now you want us to believe that out of 1006 ” accused ” (to use your theory) pedophiles that it’s possible NONE of them were pedophiles? Or only a few of them? That may not be what you said but that’s how it sounds.
I don’t mean to sound offensive to you Markie. These are simple observations I’m making based on your comments. Also, there are some logical fallacies in your comments. The 1000 pedophiles may not be pedophiles comment you made is one of them. These are propaganda techniques and should be avoided in a respectful dialog.
Reply
 
 Markie says:

 April 9, 2016 at 10:49 pm
 
Not to be offensive to you but you sound like a very disgruntled exJW. Sorry that you were so hurt by the Society. I hope when you were an elder you were kind to people.
 Where did I ever say that of the 1006 cases that it was possible that none of them were pedophiles. I simply said that we don’t know what happened in those cases and why is it always assumed that the Society was at fault for something in those cases. Please reread what I said.
 I will have to ask my friend who called the police on the MS. It probably was his mother. But he was disfellowshipped.
 When I was younger I went to law school and I can tell you of many abuses I suffered at the hands of elders during that time and still do today. One of the elders actually grabbed me by the hair and asked me what the hell I was trying to prove. A few years later he asked me to help him out with some legal issue. Hell I have even had them comment about how wrong higher education is during the Watchtower study then right after the meeting ask me some legal question.
 I for one have quit donating any money to the Society about 20 years ago. I figured my money is tainted and they don’t need it.
 Like I tell me wife the GB said it all when they decided to move out of Brooklyn and move to Warwick. If they really believed that we are living “deep” in the time of the end they never would have bothered to build that place.
 So I do see things quit wrong in the organization but to simply put the blame on the Society for every pedophile case is just not logical.

 
 
 
 Caroline says:

 April 10, 2016 at 2:52 am
 
I do believe the Society is completely responsible for all those 1006 pedophiles not being reported to the police because there was not even one of those pedophiles reported to the police. The odds of that happening to 1006 people not having been reported to the police can’t be a coincidence.
Reply
 
 
 Covert Fade says:

 April 11, 2016 at 4:03 am
 
Actually Markie, we do know what happened in these 1006 cases.
We know that an accusation of abuse was made, and we know that the society handled the accusation with their internal policies. We know that the accusation was never reported to the police, otherwise it would not be part of the 1006 “unreported cases”
This was all shown under testimony from Watchtower’s own people during the ARC, and backed up with Watchtower’s own records.
It was also shown that these polices are incredibly harmful to the survivor and that Watchtower’s internal sociological environment puts great pressure on survivors not to report. It was also shown (from Watchtowers own records) that many of these unreported abusers went on to abuse again.
Therefore, it is reasonable to state that a large proportion of the 1006 cases will be eligible for compensation due Watchtower increasing the suffering of the suvivor.
These are the facts from the ARC hearings. If you’re going to dispute them, feel free, but you will need more than anecdotal evidence to do.
Reply
 
 
 
 
 
 Ocma says:

 April 8, 2016 at 11:44 pm
 
“McCellan: Would you recommend that the church join in such a scheme?” – why not join the scheme?? JW claim to have things under control, that there are so few abused. What are they scared of?….oh, of course, the facts. The fact that there are many victims, and the fact that they do jack to help the victims. They are only concerned with covering their own backs.
Reply
 
 
 AussieneedingComfort says:

 April 9, 2016 at 5:28 am
 
John Redwood/Covert Fade….please check with Cedars to be certain, but as I recall, this person “Markie” is a troll and has caused difficulties on other threads.
Regarding this article…GOOD WORK! I thoroughly enjoyed every word and agree with your intent! Keep it up!!! Makes my heart feel so better that the “bread” they have tossed on the water is coming back to them in a huge way! The amount of pain and misery they have dished out will now be theirs to enjoy!
Reply
 
 Covert Fade says:

 April 9, 2016 at 5:38 am
 
Hi AussieneedingComfort.
Thanks for the kinds comments.
On the other issue I’ve seen many of Markie’s posts and I don’t consider him to be a troll. He has not been abusive. I’m hoping he will reply here with some specific points of criticism which can either be debated or accepted, as his current post doesn’t really add anything to the discussion.
Reply
 
 
 Markie says:

 April 9, 2016 at 6:00 pm
 
I am a troll causing problems on other threads? What do you mean by that? Does having a different opinion cause one to be a troll?
Reply
 
 Winston Smith says:

 April 10, 2016 at 8:44 pm
 
In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion,[3] often for their own amusement – Wikipedia
Markie, I typically disagree with the statements you make, but I don’t think they make you a troll.
WS
Reply
 
 Grace says:

 April 11, 2016 at 4:20 pm
 
I agree, I don’t think Markie is a troll. I think that it’s good for the website moderators to allow differing opinions. We don’t have to agree with them. Sometimes I think Markie is just being sarcastic.
Reply
 
 
 
 
 
 Jeffro says:

 April 9, 2016 at 7:31 am
 
As far as mazes go, it’s pretty lame, even for a child’s puzzle. Two completely distinct solutions, each with 2 different paths available, for a total of 4 possible solutions. Maybe this is meant to represent all the different types of donations Watch Tower will accept, from cash to jewellery to real estate to life insurance policies.
Reply
 
 
 Tara says:

 April 9, 2016 at 8:09 am
 
Haven’t been going to the meetings but Walmart seems to be the place to bump into the bros and sisters. The other day I bumped into one of the nicest couples in ‘my’ hall. After pleasantries the sister made a remark that took me back as it was unprovoked. She mentioned how the society is crying out for money. Her and her husbands thoughts were that it was because of the internet and obviously no one was donating to the magazines anymore. Then she mentioned how the renovation on ‘our own’ hall had been halved financially…. how the building of the new UK Bethel was on hold… I gave an off the cuff remark about the Warwick building work still going ahead and she gave me a quizzical look. I mentioned that when I first came into the ‘truth’ a comment from one of the governing body was that when the money runs out …… I stopped about then because it wasn’t the time or the place… but I saw them look at each other. Now this little maze thing. Yes, the minions are slowly noticing something isn’t quite right in the societies pocket book.
Reply
 
 
 Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:

 April 9, 2016 at 10:09 am
 
Who do you think will pay the bill?
*** w10 11/15 pp. 20-21 ‘Let Us Present Jehovah’s Offering’ ***
“Your servants have taken the sum of the men of war who are in our charge and not one has been reported missing from us,” they told Moses. They decided to present gold and various ornaments as Jehovah’s offering. The total weight of the gold ornaments amounted to over 500 troy pounds (190 kg).—Num. 31:49-54.
‘Let Us Present Jehovah’s Offering’ , who knows how much Africa pays? What about Europe and Asia?
‘Let Us Present Jehovah’s Offering’
Reply
 
 
 Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:

 April 9, 2016 at 10:15 am
 
http://thewatchtowerfiles.com/money/
Reply
 
 
 Eyes opened says:

 April 9, 2016 at 11:17 am
 
Great article with sound reasoning.
Reply
 
 
 ruthlee says:

 April 9, 2016 at 1:39 pm
 
ummm! The GB seem to not know what children are for. They miss the point of their little maze. If you give a child a puzzle or a game , it is expected to give them the reward , The encouragement is for the child to find delight in achieving something. We all know the saying “taking candy from a baby” and these charlatans would fleece even the little children. Are you not supposed to lay up for your children and not expect them to lay up for you? These men are not just greedy but desperate. They would hoodwink innocent children into parting with their love tokens from their parents and grandparents , only to feed the GB greed and deficit. Let’s add insult to injury. How many JW’s are born in so didn’t even get converted off the doors so have always contributed to this cowboy outfit ? How many were molested so are entitled to a payout and not a contribution to the corrupt Tower? And how many of the younger generation will follow the pied pipers and not actually get a proper job so will always struggle for money the way we do? As it is there seems to be money making scams at every turn ie assembly deficits. What now at every meeting we have a TV show to keep costs down and damn begging letters always with a misquoted scripture. As my Asperger child so eloquently put it in his pointed truthful and rapier wit style”why don’t they set up a praypal account, so we can click at the touch of a button?” I had to smile because that IS really funny and might just give the greedy men ideas.Ruthlee
Reply
 
 Winston Smith says:

 April 10, 2016 at 8:51 pm
 
Keep in mind too that this organization has always had trouble holding on to the children who are “born-in” once they grow up. Used to be about 50/50 that they would stick with it and is probably less than that today. They are definitely doing more to try to get their hooks in the kids as early as possible and this maze is certainly geared toward that goal.
WS
Reply
 
 
 
 ruthlee says:

 April 9, 2016 at 1:50 pm
 
And another thing while I’m at it (on a roll here). How on earth do they expect to get any money back in the future if they damn the kids to eternal window washing and cleaning toilets? Here in Britain you need to clear around £1,000 per month to pay your way in rent , car taxes, food and fuel. So how does a “humble” window washer do this unless he goes under the radar and claim housing relief from the government. (hardly relying on god!) or fiddles the tax? I really don’t know how they manage. I don’t actually care what they do but I know they would struggle to help out in any lawsuits if for some reason they suddenly become vicariously liable through ignorance. So I reckon they all better start saving the kids money as there are some mighty expenses coming that I suspect the Gb will worm out of and trap the fools in the tower to cough up. I think you can tell i’m annoyed at the blatant misuse of power, yet again , against children. ruthlee
Reply
 
 Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:

 April 10, 2016 at 1:40 am
 
@ruthlee, “misuse of power… against children”! You need to think deeper to understand how British children are being “killed” in another way!! Imagine now, a child recruited in Watchtower or born from a Jehovah’s Witnesses’ family will be subject to the same education (from Jehovah) as a child born in the bush somewhere in the “dark continent”!!
No race should boast of being superior or having high I.Q, all depends on what people are exposed to and schools they attend. Theocratic schools is an irrefutable proof of that.
Reply
 
 ruthlee says:

 April 10, 2016 at 3:14 am
 
Interesting points hakizimana , but I think Jw lala land is an American whiteman’s religion. Also in my experience (being the mongrel mixrace that I am ) Everyone aspires to the American dream in one form or another. Having said that, it is just a dream and like icecream can be sold then the seller moves on and the dream melts. Believe me I think very deeply on many points made here. In Britain kids have fantastic opportunities at school and higher places of learning which is why we have such and influx of bright young hopefuls. I wish them well. However every jw child that is deprived of its entitled free education here in Britain to be home schooled by the cult , is projected back beyond Victorian times when the system was set up. That is a travesty of human rights and human justice. Those kids leave school clueless and have but two qualifications in life expert cleaners of aforementioned windows and self appointed ministers of watchtower.Reguardless of intellect. I cannot speak for other countries or systems , I can only speak for a brown person who grew up with a browner father in a white culture and a white religion. I hope my comments do not offend but a spade is a shovel and I am not trying to be contentious just my take on things. cheers! ruthlee
Reply
 
 
 
 
 Eric Arthur Blair says:

 April 9, 2016 at 4:31 pm
 
The more I look at this picture the more disgusted I am. As if their policies toward children haven’t been shameful enough, they have to resort to sly, underhanded, manipulative exploitation and coercion. They are training the next generation to pay for the abuse of the previous generations.
Reply
 
 
 Freedom says:

 April 9, 2016 at 7:16 pm
 
In one of my earlier postings, I proclaimed there needs to be more court cases against the JW Org and I will continue to pray for that to happen so that their funds will start to dry up. Then I hope the majority of JWs will see through the plastic carrot this organization is putting in front of ordinary JWs that have sacrificed much of their youthful life worshiping an organization instead of God.
Reply
 
 
 Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:

 April 10, 2016 at 1:59 am
 
Bible and Bible-Based organization will continue to be a burden to humankind until even a peasant understands it. Consider what Jehovah’s Witnesses wrote back in 1981…
*** g81 11/8 pp. 21-22 Is the Bible a White Man’s Book? ***
 To most blacks of southern Africa there are only three racial divisions—blacks, whites and Asiatics, and they classify Arabs, Jews and other peoples of the Middle East, not as Asiatics, but as whites. However, just as there are different nations and types of blacks so there are different types of whites. The entire Bible was written by Israelites, or Jews, who are Orientals, or people of the Middle East—but not of the white European races who conquered Africa. Interestingly, Moses, the man who wrote the first five books of the Bible, was born and lived in northern Africa until he was 40 years old
Now, as far as the bible is considered, we have same cries as Europeans! Shunning our loved ones, family splits, burden of elders, child abuses… as a price of Bible study! Let us all pay the price if power is to shift from where it used to be.
Reply
 
 dee2 says:

 April 10, 2016 at 8:44 am
 
@Hakizimana:
“Moses, the man who wrote the first five books of the Bible……”
Just as an FYI, some points to consider as to whether or not Moses actually wrote the first five books of the Bible (Pentateuch):
– There are two creation stories in Genesis:http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_bibl.htm
– The Flood story appears to involve the meshing of two separate stories:
 Genesis 7:15: In the story of the Flood, these verses have Noah collecting two of each species of animals – one male and one female. Genesis 7:2-3 specifies 7 pairs of clean animals and birds and 1 pair of unclean animals. Genesis 7:11 describes water coming from the heavens and from below the ground to generate the worldwide flood. However, Genesis 7:4 describes all of the water falling as rain. Genesis 7:11, 7:17, 7:24 and 8:3 specify different intervals for the flood duration which have no apparent resolution.
– Exodus 33:7 describes Moses entering the Tabernacle. Yet, the Tabernacle had not yet been built; its subsequent construction is described in Exodus 35.
– Deuteronomy 34:5-9 describes the death, burial, age at death, physical condition at death, and mourning period for Moses. It is difficult for an individual to describe events at and after his or her death.
– Deuteronomy 34:10 states: “There has never been another prophet like Moses…” (NLT) This sounds like a passage written long after Moses’ death. Enough time would have to had pass for many other prophets to have arisen, to pass from the scene, and to have been evaluated.
– There are stories which have been described twice (doublets) and in some cases three times throughout the Pentateuch. These doublets appear to contradict each other. In most cases, one of the stories in the doublet refers to God as Yahweh while the other story in the doublet uses the term Elohim.
More arguments against Moses’ authorship of the entire Pentateuch can be found at:http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_tora.htm
Reply
 
 Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:

 April 10, 2016 at 12:32 pm
 
@dee2,
 I think in the article “Is the Bible a White Man’s Book?” (g81 11/8 pp. 21-22) ,the GB want to teach us that “as there are different nations and types of blacks so there are different types of whites.”! More importantly, they want to tell us that the “Bible was written by Israelites, or Jews… not … European races who conquered Africa.”! Moses was mentioned to emphasis that the Bible was not written by Europeans who unfortunately brought it in Africa.
 That is the message conveyed in the GB’s article.
Reply
 
 dee2 says:

 April 10, 2016 at 3:53 pm
 
Hakizimana,
This is off-topic but here is my take on what the Bible really is, in a nutshell:
The Bible is a book about the Jews and their history and what they wanted; it is a book about how a failed Jewish hope became foisted upon the rest of mankind – when the Kingdom of Israel failed to permanently establish itself as a sovereign nation it then began to look forward to an apocalyptic in-breaking of God to set up the Kingdom of Israel that would incorporate the whole world – the Kingdom of Israel thereby became the Kingdom of God:
Matthew 19:28
 And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Luke 22:28-30:
“You are those who have stood by Me in My trials; and just as My Father has granted Me a kingdom, I grant you that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
The Bible is a book about how the Kingdom of Israel re-invented itself to become the Kingdom of God – we are victims of a nationalistic agenda.
Reply
 
 dee2 says:

 April 10, 2016 at 4:01 pm
 
******The Bible is a book about how the FAILED Kingdom of Israel………….

 
 
 
 
 
 
 Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:

 April 10, 2016 at 1:11 pm
 
I wonder how the Bible is becoming a curse for all humankind, in more than 230 lands… The GB wrote about LIVINGSTON as follows:
*** w74 11/15 p. 677 Africa’s Churches Weigh Past and Future ***
“Instead of opening Africa for Christianity, he paved the way, at first, for the slavers who followed him into previously undiscovered territories. Also, ‘the introduction of God’s word was to presage the destruction of God’s creatures.’ After the Bible, came the gun.”
“After the Bible, came the gun.”, what about Europe? How was the Bible introduced in Europe? How are we now sharing the same cries from the Bible? How are we having the same bible educational programme?
“After the Bible, came the gun.”! My ancestors had to suffer because of the Bible and I am suffering because of the same Bible!
 People suffered when it was forbidden labeled “apostates” and now people suffer when they read it labeled the same “apostates”!
Reply
 
 Outandabout says:

 April 10, 2016 at 3:39 pm
 
Hats off to you for seeing that. Can anybody live by the Bible? Most certainly not!! They could try and if they actually made it to Mark 16:17-18 where it says that true believers can drink poison and be fine…well…anybody for a nice warm cup of bleach and a bikkie? For anybody to TRULY follow the Bible they would find themselves going around in a confused circle (if they survived) while constantly shooting themselves in the foot now and again and even then, feeling guilty about that. What they would perceive as themselves being weak for failing to understand gods word is actually their inability to understand something that can’t and never will be understood and not recognising that. Why is the Bible, after 2000yrs of total and intense study and discussion still not understood. Why can we shoot a probe off into space towards a passing comet travelling between 4,000kms and 40,000kms per hr, move alongside it at EXACTLY the same speed, land on it and start sending data back to earth, but we can’t understand the bible? If anybody suggests it’s because we’re not spiritual enough, I’ll scream. It’s been said that the Bible itself, in it’s entirety, is the single biggest case for Atheism available. I agree with that.
Reply
 
 dee2 says:

 April 10, 2016 at 9:01 pm
 
……..Don’t forget the agnostics and the deists.
Reply
 
 Outandabout says:

 April 10, 2016 at 10:25 pm
 
….and don’t get me started on these so called ‘last days’ we’re living in. If anybody can be bothered, try Googling ‘Our World In Data’. There you will find a more believable picture of current world trends which point to things being exactly the opposite to what is portrayed in the Bible. Exactly opposite of what the Watchtower is desperately ramming down peoples throats by way of their attention grabbing catch phrase – ‘War, Earthquakes, Famine’. If you look like you’re starting to drift off at the meeting, out it comes. If you having trouble understanding the overlapping generation crap, out it comes to quell any doubts and don’t think too hard, just believe!
 Famine? Apparently 786 million people worldwide are obese now so we can ditch that one.
 War? Despite what we see on telly, war deaths are a mere blip. Pretty much the same as motor vehicle accidents at about 1.3 million per year. Any mention of the tragic loss of lives on the roads in the bible? Watchtower? Any cars in the bronze age? Nah!
 Earthquakes…..we need ’em. Earthquakes and volcano’s remind us that the earth is a moving and evolving thing with a molten core that gives us the magnetic field which shields us from the damaging rays of space. We simply can’t survive without the magnetic field. If earthquakes and volcano’s stop, well then we really are in serious trouble. So…as much as we don’t like them….. if it’s hot, don’t touch it!! If the ground opens up…run away!! Don’t just stand there waiting to be rescued by a supernatural being. We left childhood behind. That reminds me of a song – ‘Puff the majic Dragon’. Maybe it should be sung at the K.H.
Reply
 
 Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:

 April 11, 2016 at 3:39 am
 
Today, who wants to be warmed like did David?
 (1 Kings 1:1-4) . . .Now King David was old, advanced in years, and although they would cover him with garments, he could not get warm. 2 So his servants said to him: “Let a girl, a virgin, be found for my lord the king, and she will wait on the king as his nurse. She will lie in your arms so that my lord the king may feel warm.” 3 They searched throughout all the territory of Israel for a beautiful girl, and they found Abʹi·shag the Shuʹnam·mite and brought her in to the king. 4 The girl was extremely beautiful, and she became the king’s nurse and waited on him, but the king did not have sexual relations with her.
I think that is a case of child abuse!

 
 
 Tara says:

 April 11, 2016 at 6:01 am
 
I got into trouble for having that book lol….. ‘because it’s about drug abuse!’. I still have the book 😉

 
 
 Minion says:

 April 11, 2016 at 7:57 pm
 
Wow good stuff I’m reading, however, no one mention the progress our fine women and sisters in the KH are having.
What you say?, The day of prayer – for almost an over lapping generation or 65 years, this group has not invited your 7 men of shameless. I guess they don’t want to cuddle with the most unholy.
Every JW should be asking, why not be part of a movement worldwide for the healing and mending of humanity.
 I remember a man called Jesus, he believed in such a movement, why?
 I understand he cared.
Interesting read and history – our Women and sisters.
 History and Alternates
The Women’s World Day of Prayer started in the USA in 1887, as Mary Ellen Fairchild James, wife of Darwin Rush James from Brooklyn, New York, called for a day of prayer for home missions,[2] and Methodist women called for a week of prayer and self-denial for foreign missions. Two years later, two Baptists called together a Day of Prayer for the World Mission. The Day of Prayer initiated by these two women expanded to Canada, then to the British Isles in the 1930s. The movements focus on ecumenism and reconciliation led to growth after World War II. Since 1927 the March day is known as Women’s World Day of Prayer. Catholic women were allowed to join the movement after the Second Vatican Council, beginning in 1967, and united what had been their May day of prayer with the March Women’s World Day of Prayer in 1969.[3]
Two other Christian denominations celebrate a World Day of Prayer in September. The Unity Church, a New Thought Protestant denomination headquartered at Unity Village, Missouri celebrates a twenty-four-hour World Day of Prayer principally on the second Thursday in September (member churches may start at sunset on September 11, and the themes differ from those of the Women’s World Day of Prayer set forth below).[4][5] Also, the terrorist events of September 11, 2001 prompted the Knights of Columbus, a Catholic fellowship, to designate that date annually as a World Day of Prayer for Peace.
Through the World Day of Prayer, women are encouraged to become aware of the other countries and cultures and no longer live in isolation. They are also encouraged take up the burdens of other people, to sympathize with the problems of other countries and cultures and pray with and for them. They are further encouraged to become aware of their talents and use them in the service of society. The World Day of Prayer aims to demonstrate that prayer and action are inseparable and that both have immeasurable influence in the world.
Peace out,

 
 
 Minion says:

 April 11, 2016 at 8:10 pm
 
Greetings to all,
The “world day of prayer” is held each year on ‘cinco de Mayo’ for the Britt’s its May 5,
I will join our fine women and sisters in the KH and encourage – morning and afternoon prayer.
Then I’ll fine my Beach with a case of coronitas or coronas and celebrate ‘cinco de Mayo’, both are great causes.
Peace out,

 
 
 
 
 Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:

 April 11, 2016 at 3:32 am
 
@Outandabout, well said, yes, the Bible itself, in it’s entirety, is the single biggest case for Atheism available
Reply
 
 
 
 
 Doc Obvious says:

 April 10, 2016 at 2:10 pm
 
Listen, obey, and be redressed. Sounds more like it.
Reply
 
 
 Bill Thinker says:

 April 10, 2016 at 5:42 pm
 
Some more “Be Generous” imagery:
http://41.media.tumblr.com/aee57d67517f3453645893e7d0e661a0/tumblr_o5g1htzDov1u6z4apo1_1280.jpg
More here: http://goo.gl/jyJIlF
Print out and give to JW children to play with at the meetings…
Reply
 
 Markie says:

 April 10, 2016 at 10:50 pm
 
An older elder friend of mine that died years ago once said to me never trust a man that wears a pinking ring. So I have always mistrusted men that wear them especially this dude. I can’t really tell if that is a Rolex or not. I would think it isn’t due to the fact that he appears to be wearing a really cheap suit and tie.
Reply
 
 
 Grace says:

 April 11, 2016 at 4:23 pm
 
Bill, I love the second pic, it’s really good. I think I’ll send it to some people to stir them up a bit. You could add so many more to it.
Reply
 
 
 
 Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:

 April 11, 2016 at 10:07 am
 
I guess we have a long way to go if we really find it necessary to convince “Jehovah” that he/she needs to change his point of view about child abuse!!
 Remember, the same “Jehovah” impregnated Mary, a virgin, when she was 13 or 14 years old? Imagine a god, the ancient of times, impregnating a girls of 13 a teenage!
 Sadly, what the same god writes on teen pregnancies shows that it is fast at pointing fingers on humans:
*** w78 10/1 p. 27 Insight on the News ***
 in the United States about a million teen-age girls had become pregnant during the preceding 12 months. She added: “Of this number, according to data from the National Center for Health Statistics, approximately 600,000 will give birth, confirming the fear that teen-age pregnancies in this country are reaching epidemic proportions.”
Reply
 
 
 Kathryn says:

 April 11, 2016 at 5:29 pm
 
I notice the GB never says they’re wrong. I believe they are a for profit organization. When it comes to the lawsuits They’re pooping their pants. Maybe they think admitting they did anything wrong is a weakness and will make things worse for their org. The GB can’t be chosen by Holy Spirit.
Reply
 
 
 Wip it says:

 April 11, 2016 at 9:45 pm
 
we have just had the zone visit & phone hook up for the 3 hour meeting, the only mention was of the 40 refirbs & 10 new halls built here in OZ, our hall had a 1/2 refirb, i believe the Government will go after them for unpaid GST, they are broke & need/want money, when i was secretary i always challenged them about the GST, we had a flat & a written rental agreement with the tenant, we were collecting GST & keeping it, one tiny example, i know of another hall where telstra are paying to use the ground for a tower, this has been going on for over 20 years, again they keep the GST. But as we know they will just says its an attack from Satan & this proves where we are in the stream of time, bumpkin, i havnt given a cent in many many years
Reply
 
 
 Alice says:

 April 11, 2016 at 10:17 pm
 
I just finished watching the monthly video on jw broadcasting for the month of April. It reminds me of a Saturday Night Live skit. It shows a blind brother playing soccer with the brothers and it shows a sign language video of a guy with a huge rafter in his eye. It reminded me of a Saturday Night live skit
Reply
 
 
 James Broughton says:

 April 12, 2016 at 1:48 am
 
Thank you for the info. It must be very disturbing for the average Witness to learn of all this or are the facts withheld from them? I suppose they have to be. We have a phrase in the UK called “spin-doctoring” used by politicians to gloss over the truth and I believe the Watchtower Society are masters of that. But like all counterfeit commodities they only really show up in the light of the genuine.
Reply
 
 
 Twmack says:

 April 12, 2016 at 4:57 am
 
On the elders course at the London Bethel, in the 70s,
 the class was instructed to target young people in the
 ministry. It was claimed the elderly were too set in their
 ways to change. / And of course, young fit people can
 be turned into active and productive recruiters, whereas
 it’s less likely with the elderly ( My thoughts ).
At that time the org, was riding the “Gravy Train”, coming up
 to 1975 record increases in publishers, money to burn.
Just a few months ago their tune had changed. Now
 publishers were encouraged to seek out the senior
 citizens, and to try and get access into retirement homes
 and old peoples care homes.
As stated, there’s little gain as far as additional recruiters are
 concerned. But the Ancientry (Shakespearian ) often have
 acquired other valuable assets during their lifetime. Need I
 say more!
Reply
 
 
 AussieneedingComfort says:

 April 12, 2016 at 5:57 am
 
Scary! They are targeting the old folk’s homes so they can talk them into giving all their assets to the Org in their wills. I have heard of some heavy duty pressure being brought on these poor old ones. It’s not right! Can you say “coercion” or “blackmail”? If you have old folks in a home, talk to them and to the staff and make sure they all know that JW’s are not to try to “study” with them or harass them in any way. It is wicked that it has come down to this!!!
Reply
 
 Kathryn says:

 April 12, 2016 at 10:52 am
 
You are so right. My JW step mother tried to get one of her elderly bible studies to make a will giving all of his money and everything he owns to the society when he dies. She says its to bad he doesn’t want to do that. He prefers to give it to his family. When she told me I backed him up. I told her I don’t blame him for wanting to leave it to family. She went on to argue and argue and argue with me. I feel it’s terrible. It shows how brain washed the members are.
Reply
 
 
 
 Cappytan says:

 April 12, 2016 at 1:44 pm
 
Thanks for linking to my video!
Reply
 
 
 EDWARD GUZMAN says:

 April 12, 2016 at 2:16 pm
 
I can’t believe the amount of years i waisted and the amount of money I lost with the iws. If only I would have known. I came from a very disfunctional family. I made the members of the congregation my family, especialy when they gave a public talk and the speaker said that there were orphans in the congregation. I fell into the trap. I was in for 25 years it’ been 15 years that I’m out. I didn’t have a father to guide me in anything. I am greatfull that I have taught my daughter every thing I know, now she is leading a very productive life and she is nobodies fool.
Reply
 
 
 Wip it says:

 April 12, 2016 at 6:48 pm
 
When my mum was dying she intimated that she would like to give her money to WT, we kindly talked her around, it is disgusting, & i think people are waking up
Reply
 
 Donn Johnson says:

 April 13, 2016 at 10:33 pm
 
When my mom died a couple of years ago, she left me written instructions (not in her will) to give WT about 250k of her estate of just under 1M. Needless to say, I ignored those instructions, since I was the executor and that money went to a worthwhile cause instead (me). Thankfully, she didn’t change her will before she passed, I would have gagged if WT had managed to get their grubby hands on my inheritance!
Reply
 
 Holly Chu says:

 April 14, 2016 at 6:47 pm
 
Good for you, Donn Johnson! I absolutely laughed until I almost fell off my chair at your comment.
Reply
 
 Donn Johnson says:

 April 21, 2016 at 7:56 pm
 
Thanks, Holly – my mom had lots of time to change her will, had she truly wanted to. Instead, she left it up to me to give away a quarter of her estate by writing it in a letter for me to find after her death. Needless to say, I followed her will instead, and while WT did get some cash (a tiny fraction) since it was in her will and I had no choice, there was no way I was going to throw away that kind of dough! In the end, WT doesn’t even so much as a thank you letter for the money they did receive, or even simple condolences, nothing. It would have been the same even if they’d received 250K.
Not sorry for ignoring my mom’s wishes, as I said she had plenty of time to change her will had she wanted to. I think deep inside she knew it was a scam and couldn’t bring herself to put that kind of crazy bequest into her will. Thankfully she didn’t! I can live quite a few years on that kind of money, while the WT would squander it away on remote-control lakes.
Reply
 
 
 
 
 

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← The Friday Column: Governing Body Issues Apology to Abuse Victims, Announces Radical Policy Changes
The Friday Column: The Annual Jehovah’s Witness Convention: a Pseudo-utopia →
 
The Friday Column: Watchtower facing financial stormwaters?
Posted on April 8, 2016
 
JWMazeI honestly thought it was a joke.
When I first saw the image opposite being circulated online, I felt that it had to be a piece of satirical art, created by an Ex-JW. I mean, I knew Watchtower had been increasingly stooping to lower and lower standards with increasing desperation to wring every last penny out of their increasingly impoverished flock, but…come on!
Surely not even Watchtower could be so crass and unsubtle as to create a child’s game where the whole object of the game was to donate money to them!
Turns out, I was wrong.
The puzzle was a genuine piece of Watchtower art, although I was rather amused when former Jehovah’s Witnesses Tony Brock posted a slightly altered version of the game onto Facebook, to present his own suggestion of where the child’s donation might ACTUALLY be going if it made it through the maze:
1934537_1610083935981221_8189571102036436519_n
 
Even active and faithful Jehovah’s Witnesses will be aware of the truth of much of this cartoon. The Governing Body have increasingly been flaunting their jewellery, expensive suits and designer watches on their JW Broadcasting appearances, and the extravagance of the new Watchtower headquarters with it’s remote control lake is hardly a secret.
Yet the last item on the list; the increasingly painful legal damages that Watchtower is having to pay, mostly centred around Child Abuse policies, that one that will be unfamiliar to many Witnesses.
Ironically, this unknown and hidden aspect of Watchtower’s financial outgoings might be the one that increasingly comes to dominate their fortunes. According to the Australian Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse, Watchtower’s policies and doctrines come together in a “perfect storm” to create an environment for sexual predetors to molest children, undetected and unreported.
The thing with storms is this;
Storms are expensive, y’all.
Storm Damage
Branch committee coordinator Terrence O'Brien was accused of intentionally trying to mislead the Commission
Branch committee coordinator Terrence O’Brien

Day 7 of the Australian Royal Commission investigation into Watchtower saw this exchange between the Head of Watchtower Australia Terrance O’Brien and Justice Peter McClellan about the issue of financial recompense.

McClellan:You know that the Commission’s been looking at the issue of redress, I assume?
O’Brien: I do, yes.
McClellan: And it is fairly clear that the Commission will be recommending a response which brings together all of the institutions where there may have been problems, to contribute their fair share ‐ you understand that?
O’Brien: I recall that from the closed hearing we had with yourself.
Financial Redress has been a key area for the ARC. It’s hard to argue that organisations who failed in their duty of care and exposed children to sexual abuse should not be required to give some measure of financial compensation; not only to address the significant medical costs involved in treating the physical and mental damage suffered, but also to show recognition of the wrong done. The ARC has discussed this idea in detail, even presenting models as to how it might work:

“…relevant criteria could be severity of abuse – 40 per cent, impact of abuse – 40 per cent and distinctive institutional factors – 20 per cent. Other approaches are possible. Average payments of $50,000, $65,000 and $80,000 are modelled.”
In other words, this model suggests that the severity, the impact of the abuse, and the degree of specific failings of the Institution should be taken into account. It then suggests some average payments.

McCellan: Would you recommend that the church join in such a scheme?
O’Brien: I don’t know whether I would recommend that the church join in with other organisations, but certainly that we have some redress scheme of our own to care for victims who are Jehovah’s Witnesses.  I would agree with that.
McClellan: Why wouldn’t you recommend that you join with others so that there is a uniform response across the country?
O’Brien: If I may just indulge, your Honour, when we had the closed meeting with yourself and others, that was a matter that I think it was almost universally felt as a last option by those who were assembled, for a variety of reasons.  I think some may feel that ‐ would it be fair on smaller organisations and unfair on the ‐ or, rather, unfair on smaller ones, fairer on the larger ones?  To manage it I would see it as a much greater difficulty than for the individual organisation to provide their own scheme.
McClellan: You must have a different recollection to me.
This is part of a longer exchange which demonstrated how Watchtower is frantically trying to pour water on the concept of a financial redress scheme administered by an outside authority, with agreed and standardised amounts for victims.
Why would Watchtower be so afraid of a system like that becoming law, as is very possible in the next couple of years in Australia?
Well, remember what O’Brien said: Would it be “fair” on the smaller organisations?
That sounds like a reasonable concern until one realises that Watchtower is a “smaller” organisation unlike any other the Commission have investigated.
Watchtower: A unique stormfront
sex-abuse-survivorUnlike an organisation that simply reports to the police as soon as it becomes aware of an allegation of child sexual abuse, Watchtower policy not only refuses to do this unless legally required, but also requires the elders to start investigating the allegation themselves to determine guilt in a bronze-age religious court, thus opening themselves up to far greater liability than a regular church or group.
Additionally, it’s been clearly demonstrated during the ARC hearings that the process the elders are mandated to use is virtually guaranteed to cause further needless trauma to the survivor.
Therefore, it’s significantly more probable that cases linked to Watchtower (such as the 1,006 Witness molesters the ARC has already identified) will be eligible for compensation when compared to cases from other organisations of a similar size.
Keep that in mind as we craft a theoretical scenario that admittedly makes a lot of assumptions, some of which will fall in Watchtower’s favour for the sake of fairness.
Lets assume only one victim per abuser (and not, say the four victims involved in the case of BCG, who gave testimony at the Royal Commission). That gives us 1,006 potential claims identified by the Royal Commission.
Now assume that out of those 1,006 potential claims, only half of the victims are found to be eligible for compensation and in a position to claim.
Now assume that only half of those survivors are found to have directly experienced additional trauma due to Watchtowers’s policies, and qualify for a higher sum than a default of $65,000. Lets say the higher figure is $80,000.
So you’ve got 250 times 65,000 = 16,250,000 and 250 times 80,000 = 20,000,000
Now add those two figures together and what do you get?
An eye watering $36,250,000!
And remember, this scenario is making some assumptions that are significantly more favourable to Watchtower than the evidence suggests is reasonable.
Recurring Storms: No end in sight.
Angus Stewart, senior council at the Royal Commission, has delivered damning summary findings detailing Watchtower's mishandling of child abuse
Angus Stewart, senior council at the Royal Commission, has delivered damning summary findings detailing Watchtower’s mishandling of child abuse

But we’re not done yet, because another fascinating glimpse under the hood of Watchtower Australia was given on Day 7 when Watchtower Lawyer Vince Toole admitted under questioning the following statistic about his role at the Watchtower Australia Legal Desk, taking reports of child sexual abuse from congregations across the country.

Angus Stewart SC: You say you’ve done this exclusively for, did you say, two years or two and a half years?
Vince Toole: Yeah, approximately two years, I’ve been taking the calls myself.
Stewart: These are calls about allegations of child sexual abuse?
Toole: Yes.
Stewart: And how many such calls have you taken in that period, would you estimate?
Toole: I couldn’t tell you, but we probably get three, sometimes four, a month.
Again, let’s be generous to Watchtower. Let’s assume four new cases of abuse a month, but say that each of those reports involve only one abuse survivor, and that of those four survivors a month, only two are eligible for and desirous of compensation. Again, lets assume that the $65,000 default sum is the one decided upon every time because by some miracle Watchtower managed not to exacerbate suffering when they indulged in their demonstrably flawed judicial process.
So 2 victims a month is 24 victims a year.
So that’s 24 times 65,000…
…$1,560,000 per year!
Now, there are around 80,000 witnesses in Australia. Remember, that figure will include people who are fading or who have faded, and thus do not donate, as well as rank and file JW’s who are either very poor or simply forget to donate a lot of the time. But assume for argument’s sake that every single one of the 80,000 donates money of around $20 a month.
Divide the arguably conservative sum of $1,560,000 by the arguably generous figure of 80,000 publishers.
$19.5 dollars, right?
That means that if a witness donates $20 a month, almost 1/12 of his entire yearly donation will go simply to paying the annual child abuse bill.
That’s AFTER they spend around two years paying off the initial lump sum of  $36,250,000.
Granted, these figures are theoretical, using models and sums yet to be agreed and passed into law. Much could happen between then and now.
Nonetheless, the scenarios are plausible, and it’s clear if you read between the lines of O’Brien’s testimony that Watchtower also thinks they are plausible, and are very worried as a result.
Which is probably one of the reasons why I strongly suspect that the crazy maze at the top of this article won’t be the last piece of low-brow piggy-bank shaking we will see from an increasingly beleaguered Watchtower.
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← The Friday Column: Governing Body Issues Apology to Abuse Victims, Announces Radical Policy Changes
The Friday Column: The Annual Jehovah’s Witness Convention: a Pseudo-utopia →
 
108 Responses to The Friday Column: Watchtower facing financial stormwaters?

← Older Comments
 
 Will says:

 April 13, 2016 at 11:02 am
 
Today’s NY Post is reporting WT will be getting roughly $700 million. I am so glad I was cheap with the WT when I was in.
Reply
 
 Will says:

 April 13, 2016 at 12:37 pm
 
I should have mentioned that $700 million will be from the sale of Brooklyn property.
Reply
 
 Alone In MD says:

 April 14, 2016 at 12:25 pm
 
Yes saw that in the Post yesterday. Maybe now Letts will stop begging for money. Or maybe not.
Reply
 
 
 
 
 Freed Mason says:

 April 14, 2016 at 4:48 am
 
Before hitting the kiddies up for cash its maybe time for GB 7 to stop the “showy display of ones means” and pawn out those $15000 Rolexes, $17000 Gold Apple Watches, flashy pinky rings and EFT the proceeds at the next meeting.
If you are going to meet up with Jesus and the Big Man you will have to explain the example you have set for others to follow:
Quoting the “Silver Sword” 1 John 2:15-17:
” (16) because everything in the world–the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the showy display of one’s means of life–does not originate with the Father, but originates with the world.”
and the other scripture about storing treasures in heaven.. need I say more??
Reply
 
 Holly Chu says:

 April 14, 2016 at 7:02 pm
 
@Freed Mason, No you need not say more, you are very eloquent, but I have a Scripture as well,
 Matthew 7:22,23….”Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name……(23) Then I will tell them plainly, “I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!”
Reply
 
 
 
 Twmack says:

 April 14, 2016 at 7:40 am
 
Fantastic response for the need of volunteers to work
 on the 4 year project of constructing the new Warwick
 Headquarters. 3,800 Bro’s, responded, so many that
 a shift system had to be organised to prevent them
 getting into each other’s way.
The generosity of the R & F is beyond question, they
 were asked if they were able to pay their own way to
 the site. Many specialised skills and professional
 know how was needed. Skills that would not have been
 available if the AW, of May 1969 p15, had been followed.–
“As a young person you will never fulfil any career that
 this system has to offer”.
No doubt the new building will be a solid construction
 that will last for many, many Generations, the org, is
 renowned for taking care of its assets, it’s property.
“Could this be our last Memorial before Armageddon”?
Oh please! “Pull the other one it’s got bells on”.
Reply
 
 Minion says:

 April 14, 2016 at 8:15 pm
 
TW,
Let me get this right, all 3,800 volunteers paid there way to arrive at the new Mecca.
And have been sacrificed to the god of this world Satan.
 The Mecca is located over a toxic waste dump.
 All will develop uncureable cancer and will die.
Hail and praise Satan! the words and song of The Watchtower Corporation the evil slave.
Peace out,
Reply
 
 
 
 rob says:

 April 14, 2016 at 7:47 am
 
The leadership at the watchtower are shrewd and arrogant and know exactly what to say to get the herd to follow. Dangling the carrot, using manipulation and then using guilt are all tactics that obviously work. For those that do not follow, they use shunning from family and friends to keep control.
They really are masters at using people.
But one day, hopefully, they will be the ones who face judgement and are held accountable for their actions.
Reply
 
 Minion says:

 April 14, 2016 at 8:47 pm
 
R,
The Watchtower Corporation is due accountability, or lack thereof, this is an excerpt of the San Diego newspaper 3 hours ago.
Lopez’s lawyers put on a six-day trial in front of the judge, without Watchtower’s lawyers there to offer a defense. In the end, Judge Lewis handed down a default judgment of $10.5 million in punitive damages and $3 million in compensatory damages against Watchtower.
Watchtower also had to pay more than $37,000 in sanctions, mostly to cover the travel costs for the deposition that never happened.
Watchtower appealed.
The appeals court gave a mixed-bag opinion Thursday.
The three-judge panel rejected Watchtower’s claims that the prior abuse documents shouldn’t have to be turned over.
However, the appeals court disagreed with the judge’s order for Losch’s deposition, saying Lopez’s lawyers did not prove that he was key to the case as a leader in the governing body.
The court also took issue with how quickly Lewis terminated Watchtower from the court proceedings, saying she should have first tried less-punitive sanctions to see if the church would comply with her orders.
The case will now go back to Lewis to give Watchtower another chance to turn over the requested abuse documents. If, after further warnings and lower-grade sanctions, the church still doesn’t comply, the case could end again the same way.
Attorneys for Watchtower did not return requests for an interview Thursday.
Lopez’s lawyer, Zalkin, said Thursday that the court’s opinion could have a big impact on his case and other similar lawsuits against Watchtower being fought in California and around the country.
“From our perspective, this has always been about getting the documents,” he said. He added that Watchtower has produced some prior abuse documents in other lawsuits, but they have been heavily redacted and of little use.
Previous
 $13.5M for Jehovah’s Witness sex victim
“They don’t want the world to know what they’ve known about child sex abuse within their organization for decades and they’ve been trying desperately to keep that covered up,” Zalkin said.
Last April, an appeals court overturned an $8.6 million punitive award against Watchtower in a similar 2012 lawsuit filed in Alameda County by a woman who was molested by a church member. The court ruled that the church had no obligation to warn the congregation that the member had admitted to previously molesting his stepdaughter. The court did uphold $2.8 million in compensatory damages in the case. End of commentary.
Message to The Watchtower Corporation, “your following the steps of the wicked congregations spoken in Revelation.
 I know your wicked and evil deeds”
It’s true or its not.
Peace out,
Reply
 
 
 
 label licker says:

 April 15, 2016 at 3:48 am
 
While we were in the cult, we had our wills made out to the Watchtower. When we saw how the elders protected a man who was beating his wife, smashing in her car by hand while drunk, committing adultery, waving fully loaded guns in his wife’s face threatening to kill her and using a worldly teenage employee to forge legal documents using his wife’s name then we stopped going to the meetings in Elmira, On. Even asking why an elder is allowed to remain an elder after finding out his fifteen year old daughter is having a baby and the father is a worldly fourteen year old kid, all we got for an answer was the elders don’t even have any say on what pedo’s can do to the kids in the congregation. Making excuses and putting the blame on the org’s sick rules for their laziness as elders.
 I do have my judicial meeting all on tape so they didn’t df me but put me on public reprove for supposedly discouraging all of this guy’s family members to pioneer six years previous. Half a year later none of them were pioneering and two months later two of the twenty-five year olds were made elders. One who was still going to college taking a four year course and told by the po to keep it quiet that he was going to college. The org would rather keep someone who’s getting an education quiet than to expose pedos. Sick sick cult!
 To bad for Watchtower for we have no kids and our money was willed to them. I don’t think a few million dollars is something to protect pedo’s over or allow a guy who was reinstated after seventeen years of being df’d be allowed to do what he did after he was reinstated. Thank god we saw that bright light and the real truth was revealed to us. Now our wills are made out to helping sick kids and the poor.
Reply
 
 
 Twmack says:

 April 15, 2016 at 6:42 am
 
Minion.
 Let me get this right, all 3,800 volunteers paid there way to arrive at the new Mecca.”
Hi minion.- Volunteers were asked, if they were “Able” to pay their own travel
 expenses, which is very subtle. Instead of the org, paying as a matter of policy,
 it puts the onus on the volunteers, either to find their own funds or, take from
 JHVH, by asking the org, to pay ( As they would view it ). I can’t think that any
 would take the second option.
I was invited to attend courses at Bethel on two occasions, and each time
 I was asked if I was able to pay my own way.
Things seem to be well organised at Warwick. 40 buses to transport workers
 to and from the site every day. Also 8 temporary dining rooms to feed the
 hungry workers.
I only hope at the end of their contract the volunteers won’t be invited to
 contribute toward the cost of the food they’ve consumed. Which is exactly
 what the classes I attended at Bethel j invited to do. Even though
 we had lost a months wages by being there.
Reply
 
 
 Vidiot says:

 April 15, 2016 at 9:33 am
 
Ho… lee… f**k.
No wonder the Org has been trying to scrape together as much funds as they can.
This isn’t gonna be a one-time-only thing… they’ll have to budget for abuse-related payouts for every single year here on in (and not just in Oz, I’ll bet).
And when they start coming up short, they can kiss their charity/tax-exempt status goodbye.
Reply
 
 
 Wip it says:

 April 18, 2016 at 8:54 pm
 
Satanic Propaganda, that’s what they say, a good friend of mine has uncovered for himself the WT are on the stock market,he approached the local elders & quizzed them, he was told that the internet lies, so now he is writing to the 7 dwarves, dangerous game my friend, more talk, more bad publicity
Reply
 
 
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← The Friday Column: Watchtower facing financial stormwaters?
Science-denial to be a regular feature of Watchtower’s monthly JW Broadcasting episodes →
 
The Friday Column: The Annual Jehovah’s Witness Convention: a Pseudo-utopia
avatar 
Posted on April 15, 2016
 
Each year, lots of Jehovah’s Witnesses around the world anticipate the convention season. It is a time of excitement as families set out to make plans for this annual gathering of like-minded people. For those who live far away from their designated convention arena, it is most exciting.  It is often the only vacation some families will have all year. Parents save their money for travel expenses while their young sons and daughters look forward to meeting other Jehovah’s Witness kids.
Older teens and those in their early twenties have a special plan for the convention: to meet the “one” who will become their spouse. It is hard to find a “suitable” boyfriend or girlfriend at the local Kingdom Hall, especially if there are more females than males, or vice-versa. In a lot of cases, parents have already decided who they have in mind for their daughter or son. In a way, the convention is one place where teens can be a little rebellious in between the morning and afternoon sessions. If they can break away from their parents, they can mingle in the main area outside the auditorium and hope to find a potential mate.
Elders anticipate this behavior, so they walk around carrying “Quiet please” and “Please be seated” signs. They don’t speak. They just carry the sign and make eye contact with whomever they believe is “loitering”. Unless you have to use the restroom, you had better be in your seat!
Most readers of this article have been to a Jehovah’s Witness convention. I recently found pictures from when I attended the “Divine Love” convention in 1979. My oldest brother and his wife were recently baptized. I was visiting them in Florida for the summer, so I went with them to the convention.
karenne-assembly
At the 1979 Divine Love Assembly

I remember being taught that Jehovah’s Witnesses are unlike any other group of people. I was told that, when you are among “Jehovah’s people”, no one is a stranger. You could be in need, anywhere in the world, and a Jehovah’s Witness would take you in. That is the feeling you are supposed to have at these annual conventions. They have even been referred to as a “family reunion” by some Jehovah’s Witnesses.
When I attended a convention in the late seventies and early eighties, I remember the feeling of excitement and anticipation. I was in my early teens and my brother (eight years older and married) let me have a bunch of tickets that could be exchanged for food. During the lunch break, he let me go to the concessions by myself to get lunch. He told me that, even though we were in a group of thousands of people, he felt safe letting me go off by myself because everyone in the building was a Jehovah’s Witness. I know he believed what he was saying because he was usually very protective of me. In any other circumstance, he would never let me go off by myself.
"Divine Love" District Assembly, 1979
“Divine Love” District Assembly, 1979
Through the years, I have been told, “One way you can be sure we are Jehovah’s people is that we are united in worship. Every congregation studies the same thing during the same week throughout the world.” As I got older, I learned that the Roman Catholic Church has been doing the same thing for many years. The RCC has a missal with a three-year cycle. Each year, the Vatican assigns a cycle (A, B or C) to the worldwide churches so that their masses don’t get repeated too often.
I stopped going to meetings and conventions when I was twenty-two. My Jehovah’s Witness brother had died when I was twenty (they considered him a “martyr”) and his wife had written a letter of disassociation a few years after he died. Thankfully, no one else in my family was baptized, so we didn’t have to deal with being shunned.
In 2015, I began to watch ex-JW videos and read ex-JW blogs. I know a few former Jehovah’s Witnesses, but I didn’t realize that an international community was online! Since I had been out for so long, I wanted to attend a convention to see how much had changed since I last attended one in the early eighties. My husband, who has never been to a Kingdom Hall, agreed to go with me.
We live in a state in the Midwest, but we are both originally from Connecticut. Since we have a “New England accent”, we sound like outsiders in the state where we live. We used that to our advantage. I didn’t want us to be treated like visitors at the convention. I didn’t want my husband to be “love bombed”. Rather, I wanted us to be treated like any other rank-and-file Witnesses. It was important to me that we get badges that listed our congregation on them so we could blend in.
When we approached the table to get a badge, the man said, “Which congregation are you from?” I said “Wallingford, Connecticut”.  He asked me to repeat myself about three times. We told him that we were traveling through the area on our way to Oregon and didn’t want to miss the convention. He said, “How do I know you are from a congregation in Connecticut?” I said, “You can call them.”, but he was busy and just handed me two badges.
badge-karen
JW Convention Badge, a sign of conformity

As we walked to the convention area to get seats, I looked around. The first thing I noticed was the lack of concession stands. There was no food anywhere! One of the things that I remembered from going to the conventions years earlier was the aroma of baked goods and hot dogs! I guess those days are gone.
While technology has made its way into the conventions, most things remain the same. Talks are scripted down to the most mundane levels. At one point during the Saturday that I attended the 2015 “Imitate Jesus” convention, a woman and her husband were ‘interviewed’. The man at the podium asked the woman how many children she had and what were their ages and names.
My husband noticed that she hesitated and looked at an index card before responding. He asked me, “Is this an actual couple or is this a fictional couple? Why would she need to look at an index card to remember the ages and names of her children?”
There were a few more talks that involved people being interviewed about their life experience. My husband and I wondered if all of the interviews were really just scripts written by the Writing Department in Brooklyn.
One talk was specifically geared toward women. The premise of the talk was to remind women that they are expected to be subservient to men… and to be grateful for the role that Jehovah has given them. In a pathetic attempt to make an analogy, the brother said, “Women, you are not a giraffe. You shouldn’t want to be a giraffe.” I was using my video camera at the time, so I recorded that ridiculous talk.
Click here for a clip from the ridiculous talk
Later, when my husband saw the baptismal candidates answer the questions, he had a good view of them and noticed how young most of them were. My husband has learned (through my online activism) about the implications of getting baptized as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. He knew my brother and how he died after refusing to receive blood. He knows about how Jehovah’s Witnesses shun those who are disfellowshipped or write a letter of disassociation. When he saw the young baptismal candidates go behind a curtain to get ready to be baptized, be became very upset and developed a migraine.
My husband said that he saw and heard enough for one day. We planned to attend the Sunday talks, but my husband changed his mind. The entire experience upset him.
I didn’t want to go the 2015 convention, but I knew that my husband would not be able to understand my activism if he didn’t experience the convention for himself. He saw for himself how obediently Jehovah’s Witnesses take in the messages, sing the songs and clap on queue. He said he felt like he walked into a Stepford Wives movie.
When he got the migraine, we had to leave. The program still had about an hour left, so there were only a few people in the parking lot. We noticed a man walk to his car, rip off his tie in one large gesture and throw it in the car. We made eye contact with him and waved. When I looked at the man, I was hoping that he was in the parking lot (instead of in the building listening to a talk) because he was on the verge of waking up.
I’ll never know.
 
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← The Friday Column: Watchtower facing financial stormwaters?
Science-denial to be a regular feature of Watchtower’s monthly JW Broadcasting episodes →
 
79 Responses to The Friday Column: The Annual Jehovah’s Witness Convention: a Pseudo-utopia

 rob says:

 April 15, 2016 at 12:29 pm
 
When I was a witness teenager the top ten reasons to go to the assembly were:
1. Find a prospective husband/wife
 2. Show off new clothes
 3. Talk about work and sports and school or job
 4. Reunite and talk with friends
 5. Eat the sandwiches and the pudding cups
 6. Watch the Drama
 7. Sleep during the afternoon sessions
 8. Make plans for dinner at a restaurant that evening
 9. Look to see where people are sitting to avoid boredom during the talks
 10. Watch the baptism candidates getting dipped.
Reply
 
 Michele says:

 April 15, 2016 at 1:17 pm
 
Haha this is so true!!
Reply
 
 
 Minion says:

 April 15, 2016 at 4:06 pm
 
Greetings to all:
 R,
My top ten reasons – why I attended the assemblies:
 1. Find a prospective husband/wife
 2. Show off new clothes
 3. Talk about work and sports and school or job
 4. Reunite and talk with friends
 5. Eat the sandwiches and the pudding cups
 6. Watch the Drama
 7. Sleep during the afternoon sessions
 8. Make plans for dinner at a restaurant that evening
 9. Look to see where people are sitting to avoid boredom during the talks
 10. Watch the baptism candidates getting dipped.
Great minds think a like.
Peace out
Reply
 
 Winston Smith says:

 April 15, 2016 at 4:57 pm
 
I remember being bored out of my mind as a young child during the sessions. I found that if you started at the big overhead lights long enough they would start to change colors. I remember talking to another kid from my congregation and learning that he did the same thing. Probably wasn’t good for our eyes.
I also recall some speakers had such a monotone voice it was perfect to drop off and nap.
WS
Reply
 
 Winston Smith says:

 April 15, 2016 at 4:59 pm
 
I meant STARED at the overhead lights. Gotta love autocorrect.
Reply
 
 vivian says:

 April 21, 2016 at 8:45 pm
 
yes, they turned rainbow colors.

 
 
 
 
 
 
 Jill Hileman says:

 April 15, 2016 at 12:39 pm
 
I have to admit, reading this brought me back and made me feel an instant sense of exhaustion and despair as I did then. The cruelty heaped onto women as God’s will was debilitating, but I had no words for it back then because cognitive dissonance was *normal life*. A constant shade of depression was just another day of life “in this system”.
There are no words for how grossly enslaving they are.
Reply
 
 
 Cherie says:

 April 15, 2016 at 12:53 pm
 
I haven’t been to a convention since ’92, but I understand they have to pack their own food now. I thought I also heard that, with the exception of a few “international” conventions, the venues are smaller.
Reply
 
 
 Will says:

 April 15, 2016 at 1:27 pm
 
My last convention was the 2014 international convention in N.J. 100 years of the kingdom–YAY!!! I was miserable. I was there with my wife and kids and I knew that would be my last one. A couple of months after that I stopped attending meetings. I love the “clap on queue” comment by your husband. I remember going the annual meeting or whatever meeting it was that Jehovah “gave us” the beautiful gray bibles and people clapping like seals. And I’m thinking that these people have no clue who wrote this bible and their qualifications. It’s amazing how reason kicks in when you are mentally out. Also, I was always so skeptical of these “experiences”. Their may be a shade of truth to some of them, but I’m sure it’s embellished so it could be more encouraging. Nice article!!!
Reply
 
 
 Sister drifter UK says:

 April 15, 2016 at 1:41 pm
 
Twickenham assembly used to be very exciting because depending on where the flight path was for Heathrow meant you could look at aeroplanes going over.
 I went to Twickenham for decades- until Twickenham stopped.
 I have been a child, a teenager, on the look out for a husband, married, pregnant, a mother of children ( they loved the airplanes) and a widow -all acted out at Twickenham. Twickenham ended and I stopped.
 All those endless meaningless conversations with people you only see once a year –
 ‘Hello! (Kiss /hug) how are you?
‘I’m fine how are you ?’
 ‘I’m fine- where are you sitting?’
 ‘I’m in the west stand M16 where are you sitting?’
 ‘oh we are in the west stand too!’
 ‘Better sit down the music has started!’
 ‘lovely to see you’
That’s it.
 That’s the extent of the conversation.
 Or maybe ‘just getting in the toilet queue’
No real conversations and if you try and stop and talk you are moved on by some officious 15 year old who has just got baptised and thinks he is superior to all women.
Actually Twickenham was like a big fashion parade .
 Always was.
 In my day you met under the lion if you were on the look out.
 Now they just walk round and round until they see someone they like the look of….
If you are familiar with Twickenham then this will make sense.
But I can also remember some very very happy times there doing pre convention work for weeks on end and there was time for conversation.
Reply
 
 blushing ex elder says:

 April 16, 2016 at 2:15 am
 
I remember Twickenham well too. I was chairman for the opening session at my last convention before leaving. Every remark or comment made had to be read from the approved script, even how to thank the last speaker and ‘how encouraged we all must have been by his counsel’. I have never felt so uncomfortable saying anything in public as I did on that occasion. Regarding ‘experiences’ related, most are based on genuine events, but then the speaker rehearses with the one giving the experience to tell them what to highlight and what to say to reinforce the point of the item, to the point where they bear little resemblance to the spirit of what actually happened. They just become a vehicle for getting the pre approved message across. It was the whole ‘old boys club’ superiority atmosphere that really began to make me doubt the religion. If you knew the right people then you got assignments, became one of the gang. I’ll start to go totally off topic if I carry on…lol
Reply
 
 ruthlee says:

 April 16, 2016 at 8:14 am
 
want to hear more from you blushing ex elder especially us in the Britain field at a venue not far from you cheers ruthlee
Reply
 
 
 
 Johnship says:

 April 16, 2016 at 5:00 am
 
I was a gasfitter in the 70s so i volunteered to help out with the calor gas boilers they used to prepare meals drinks etc..true to form WT put me on painting signs! I went round to the calor gas store and saw a guy sticking a gas regulator that was leaking together with hermetite gasket cement. !!! I think thats when i started to distrust the people in charge..ha ha
Reply
 
 
 
 Big B says:

 April 15, 2016 at 1:52 pm
 
Great article and a “blast from the past”,
The last convention my family and I attended while fading was the “God’s Word is Truth” district convention.
The Friday session that afternoon was the final straw of the bundle of nonsense that proverbially “broke the camels back.” That last talk, “Believe Inspired Truth Not Inspired Error”, had me hooked. Finally, I thought, the Society would confess their egregious doctrinal errors and set matters straight. Alas, it was not to be. Because I chose to pursue a higher education to better my families circumstances, I was labeled “a tool of the Devil”. I haven’t been back since, not to the Hall or the Circuit or District (Zone) “boreathons”.
I do remember the big “Divine Will” International Convention in New York City. I was six at the time, huge eight day assembly (Sunday to Sunday) with morning, afternoon and evening sessions ending around 9 p.m. The sessions were punctuated with a light breakfast, lunch and dinner there at the assembly.
Note: They stopped serving food due to problems with vendors wanting to open up their concession stands per contractual arrangement with the stadiums. Witness conventions serving their own food did not sit well with the concession owners.
Anyway, good article and I enjoyed the reminisce down memory lane however, like they say “It was real and it was nice but it wasn’t real nice”. 🙂
Reply
 
 
 Marilyn White says:

 April 15, 2016 at 2:12 pm
 
That was beautifully and accurately written. I escaped the cult when I was 15 but it’s had lifelong repercussions on my life. I’m so happy that you have found the strength to investigate the JW and find your way out of that very controlling and unhealthy organization. I hope you can find a way to enjoy the rest of your life. And remember, you are never alone…there are millions of us on the outside who understand and care.
Reply
 
 
 Nunya says:

 April 15, 2016 at 2:13 pm
 
Wait that looks like the Bayfront Center! If so I was actually there. Small world. I was a good little youth running food around to the stands. My big treat was waking at the crack of dawn stocking stands with O.J. and grabbing a few that were still frozen since it was so early. What joy!!
Reply
 
 Karen says:

 April 15, 2016 at 4:19 pm
 
Nunya,
 Yes! It was the Bayfront Center. During the break between the morning and afternoon sessions, I was at the food stations. Maybe we walked right past one another.
Reply
 
 John McCarthy says:

 April 15, 2016 at 6:00 pm
 
OMG! That’s what I thought when I first looked at that picture. Many years ago, when first became an Elder, I gave my first circuit assembly talk at the Bayfront Center! Yeah, really small world. Hey, Nunya and Karen, we might actually know each other……scary thought huh!
Reply
 
 Karen says:

 April 15, 2016 at 6:42 pm
 
I was only visiting my brother in the summer time. I lived in Connecticut, so I wouldn’t have known anyone at the Bayfront Center assemblies. It’s still cool that some of you recognized the venue!
Reply
 
 
 
 Nunya says:

 April 16, 2016 at 5:34 am
 
There is zero doubt. I can’t give too much away but my brothers and I were VERY integral to what was called “expediting” at the time. Every summer lived in that place for 4 weekends straight helping every district. Work 3 days sit one at each conv. until I had all 4 in. Anyway nice little flash back.
Reply
 
 
 
 
 Clay says:

 April 15, 2016 at 5:27 pm
 
It sickens me to think I was apart of a organization that treats people this way with the shunning and gossiping. And they say there following Jesus!! What a crock
Reply
 
 
 AussieneedingComfort says:

 April 15, 2016 at 9:11 pm
 
Suicides….so terribly horrible. I know of two, one a young man aged 21 who shot himself in the head. He also had everything planned out, his own funeral, where he wanted to be buried, his will. Everything was a direct result of being raised a JW. Another was the mother of an ex-friend of mine. She lived with a violent abusive man for years and years. Constantly going to the Elders for help and always being told she wasn’t a good wife. When her husband retired, she hung herself in the garage leaving a note saying she could not face life with him home day after day. How many do you personally know of? Breaks my heart every time…Glad I found all of you here.
Reply
 
 Holy Connoli says:

 April 16, 2016 at 2:34 am
 
As a Young new JW I also felt suicidal. Iwas bareley 20 years old and left all my friends I grew up and my “worldly” family. AFter a few dedicated years a s a JW I was not happy but very depressed. All the fun things I used to do were now banned by the BORG! No more sports.no more dancing, no more girl friends, no more going out to movies unless they were G rated, no more Xmas, No more bdays, no Mothers day, fathers day, 4th of july etc, The only way to happiness according tot eh Borg was More witnessing and going door-door and being a pioneer! THat was pretty much it. I would pray to God and ask forgivenss why I doubted the WT and why I was not happy and PLEASE make me happy Jehovah! Make me believe these whacky teachings, somehow it must be right? Yet I am miserable and in emotional pain. I had to admit my fater was right when he told me not to join the JW’s back in 1973 bc they don’t even go to college and you will be por all your life waiting for the end of the World to come! I felt suicidal. I was barley
Reply
 
 Charles Huff says:

 April 16, 2016 at 1:19 pm
 
Its going to be OK man, you will heal.
Reply
 
 
 
 
 Peter the Digger says:

 April 16, 2016 at 6:27 am
 
This is exactly what I heard in a talk at a K Hall once….”I can tell a really good brother – he has shiny shoes”. (so never mind Bible knowledge, kindness, empathy, sociability – its the Dress and Grooming that really matters)
Reply
 
 Gabrielle Guichard says:

 April 20, 2016 at 12:00 pm
 
… and his wife waxes them.
Reply
 
 
 
 Daniel Roberts says:

 April 16, 2016 at 6:32 am
 
My assigned district convention location was Norwich in the UK.
 Besides the mind numbing boredom experienced as a child during the epic length discourses delivered by some of the least charismatic speakers of all time, I do recall how, as a child, the whole 4 day experience was just about waiting for the DRAMA! The famous bible scenes ‘acted’ (Term used at its most loose) by a group of tiny figures in the middle of a Football pitch, dubbed over by the most corny of American dialogue. The exotic accents over the loudspeakers giving the enthralled audience a sense of ‘Hollywood’.
The actors waving their arms in wild gestures – almost, but not entirely, in synch with the pre- recorded script.
 The voice of God in these dramas was occasionally present. A commanding if not slightly over theatrical vocal performance from a chap using the same sort of digital vocal effect as the Mysterons from Captain Scarlet.
 I grew up thinking Jehovah was an American.
 The other highlight as a child was the goose pimple raising round of applause following the baptism and the release of a new publication.
 How those moments made the numb buttocks and cramping backs (from being sat on the most evil seats in all of chair history) completely worth it.
 As I got older, the other thing to enjoy was checking out the attractive sisters and trying to catch the eye of, well, truth be told, ANY of them. ANYONE! Anyone?
 Nope. I guess my lack of good clothes and abundance of acne probably didn’t help matters. But there definitely was a real problem with cliques and division among the teens. The trendy youths, the elite, the purebloods if you will, and the mudbloods like me who didn’t get invited to be part of the convention social scene, or worse, got forced from it by the bully boys and girls.
 Then of course, the real drama would happen when the minibuses of demon possessed apostates would arrive swarming through the petrified looking Witnesses like deadly insects. Waving banners that had slogans scribed upon them by Satan himself. I couldn’t tell you what the slogans were. The power of JW indoctrination somehow made it impossible for me to understand basic English. My mind expertly fashioned by years of fear mongering to ‘see’ but ‘not see’ the depraved messages being waved around by the foam throthing minions of Nimrod. I’m fairly certain that they were all homosexual and dressed in extremely right trousers too.
My most defining memory of a District convention though is a tragedy that happened to a young brother who was killed in a really awful and random traffic accident on the way back to his accommodation from the convention venue.
 I won’t post the details as it’s not my tragedy to disclose, but it was shocking, sudden and very violent. He was just a teenager.
 The convention program however, continued as scripted.
Reply
 
 Tara says:

 April 16, 2016 at 6:57 am
 
Tisk tisk Daniel! Capt. Scarlet. The Mysterons and shame on you! Harry Potter hahahaha love it and love all of them 🙂 I’m a Mudblood!
Reply
 
 Daniel Roberts says:

 April 16, 2016 at 7:24 am
 
Honestly Tara, if my convention was Hogwarts, then most of the youths were versions of Malfoy in Slythering with me being a definite Ron Weasly.
 And despite by my own admission being one of the mudbloods, there were youths even further down the class list than I was. Probably best described as ‘Dobby’s’. To be mocked, sneered at, bullied or just ignored by the elite Witness class.
Oh yes. The elite witness class. All River Island and Next suits and dresses. Copious amounts of hair gel and aftershave. Hairspray and perfume in huge poisonous clouds destroying large areas of ozone. Desperately trying to control the hormones long enough to meet, date and marry as quickly as possible in order to prevent the otherwise inevitable act of fornication.
Like you say;
 Feels good to be free.☺
Reply
 
 ruthlee says:

 April 16, 2016 at 8:23 am
 
me too Daniel I a a pure mudblood and had years and years of being at the extreme end of elitism and shunning One day I WILL write the expose and I might even name the bitches . Ruthlee
Reply
 
 Daniel Roberts says:

 April 18, 2016 at 5:33 am
 
I will name and shame one right now.
 Mari Grover.
 You horrible human.
 One of the reasons I left the cult was because I could not bear the thought of eternal life in a garden surrounded by people like you and your nasty husband.
 Perhaps I should be grateful to you for bullying me out of the paradise.
 Enjoy infinity. I hope it drags.

 
 
 Tara says:

 April 18, 2016 at 6:08 am
 
Been in same KH for 12 years… one elders wife has only spoken to me about 5 times and that was either a ‘oh, hello’. or a ‘thank you’. because I forced her to say something in front of another witness. She is the most arrogant, stuck up bitch ever. Never knew what I did to upset her. Some of the sisters doubted what I was saying until they saw it themselves. Her husband used to be pleasant to me when I first arrived here… after a while he would run the other way. Elderette stopped him talking to me. I love the ‘christian’ cong. so much love.

 
 
 
 
 
 Winston Smith says:

 April 16, 2016 at 12:42 pm
 
I was once told (by someone from headquarters) that the voice of “GOD” was done by now-deceased governing body member, Dan Sydlik.
WS
Reply
 
 Daniel Roberts says:

 April 18, 2016 at 6:23 am
 
I wonder if he had help getting the voice right… A little holy spirit direction to help with enunciation and diction. Getting Jehovah ‘s voice just right. I wonder if he adopted the method actor approach and actually ‘became’ God throughout the recording sessions; Staying in character at all times. Bet he really got on the other GB chaps nerves.
 I wonder if Jehovah was up on his throne rolling his fiery eyes and saying to Jesus:
‘This guy is just hopeless. Doesn’t sound nothing like me does it! He’s just not nailing my awesomeness, y’know – I’m like, God n’stuff – is he’.
I wonder if his wife asked him to ‘do the God voice’ on special occasions…
Reply
 
 peggy says:

 April 19, 2016 at 9:27 am
 
Daniel, you made me laugh, too. Love a sense of humor. Just got a mental picture of the guy doing gods voice./ too funny.
 Peggy
Reply
 
 Daniel Roberts says:

 April 20, 2016 at 11:47 pm
 
Yeah.. the voice of God.
 Despite having been around for eternity, God heard and favoured the American accent, specifically with the Brooklyn twang, and chose to adopt that as his preferred way of speaking.
Moses’ and Pharaoh’s voices are forever etched into my memory also.
 Moses sounded like a drunk German version of Yoda from Star Wars – (He was meant to sound like a Hebrew with a speech impediment) And Pharoah sounded like Samuel L Jackson doing an impression of the aforementioned Yoda. (They didn’t bother attempting an Egyptian accent).

 
 
 
 
 
 Jaime says:

 April 18, 2016 at 8:26 am
 
Daniel,
 You made me laugh a couple times in your post, and then your reply to Tara. Thank you for laughing the first time at one of these ex-jw websites. The healing moves to another level…
“I grew up thinking Jehovah was an American.” Ha Ha Ha!
Reply
 
 Daniel Roberts says:

 April 18, 2016 at 9:31 am
 
Hey Jaime. Sometimes it’s good to focus on the more ridiculous aspects of the JW cult isn’t it. There is plenty to laugh at.
 In my district there was a trend amongst the teen brothers to grow sideburns. (It was the 90’s) There was several talks from various platforms including the district convention where the youths were warned against such Satanic styling as… sideburns. To be honest, considering the guilty youths were all around 14 to 17 years old, you could hardly describe the patchy bumfluff barely framing our spotty faces as ‘sideburns’ anyway. There wasn’t one decent pair of sideburns amongst the whole lot of us.
 There was even an elder in my congregation who carried a measuring ruler with him in order to monitor the length of our strips of face fluff.
 It was the cheek – fuzz equivalent of random drug testing for sports athletes and mma fighters.
 And if you did get busted by the face- follicle-facist and your facial feathers turned out to be too long, he would order you to shave them or else lose your privileges in the congregation.
Yes. For some reason. The JW’S believe that the entity responsible for kick starting all of everything in the entire universe, the all powerful divine supreme creator who existed before existence, and who will exist even after existence ceases to exist.. and then some, this omnipotent force of jaw dropping awesomeness…. takes issue with teenage boys fizog fur.
Now.. I don’t know about you, but that sounds like just the sort of God I’ve been looking for my whole life.
Reply
 
 
 
 
 Twmack says:

 April 16, 2016 at 6:36 am
 
8 day convention Wembly Stadium, 2 small children, girl
 aged 3, boy 5. Sessions finished 9 pm with instructions
 not to leave until the final prayer. The elite speakers from
 N,Y, had long since left for their 5 star accommodation.
What a struggle finding our way across London late at night
 back to the digs. It was after midnight when we arrived the
 first night. The elderly couple we stayed with were very
 anxious and concerned especially for the children.
The accommodation had previously been canvassed by
 local bros, 7 shillings and 6 pence a night was offered to the
 house holders. The London papers contrasted this paltry
 price to that of the top London Hotel where members of the
 gb, were staying.
At our lodgings we had one bed for the 4 of us, my wife and
 I slept in the middle with a child on each side. It was very
 cramped and at some point in the night both children had
 fallen out of bed, We were all so tired that we were not aware.
 The children were still asleep on the floor the next morning
2 final thoughts. I wonder why the gb, didn’t stay at the London
 Bethel and save the money for the “Vital Preaching Work?
 And then there’s the principle of “Not putting burdens on other
 peoples shoulders,”
Reply
 
 Kate says:

 April 20, 2016 at 11:59 am
 
Do you remember what year this was? And do you remember which paper had the article that mentioned the contrast between lodgings for the rank and file and the GB? I would love to try to find it in the archives. Thanks
Reply
 
 
 
 Tara says:

 April 16, 2016 at 6:52 am
 
the conventions to me were an expense I could hardly afford. We went to Manchester and had to be up very early to catch the coach. Leaving the house to walk to the pick up point before the neighborhood was awake. then the tedious round up of everyone else… finally leaving the town an hour after we first got on the bus. If I could afford it we stayed in a local hotel – the highlight of the three days. If not we waited on the street for our bus, piled on and did a stop, start out of Manchester and eventually up the M6, tour the town again before being dropped off. walk home, empty the bags, make more sandwiches, say hi to the hubby, pack kids off to bed and then start over. It didn’t get much better here in Canada until the convention venue was moved to a local town. at least we were home within the hour. But the expense still ripped a hole in my pocket. New clothes, shoes, food, gas money, time off work. For what? to listen to the blaa, blaa, blaa get the new publications pretend to be excited. Thank goodness I have no plans to attend any more. Freedom is a wonderful thing.
Reply
 
 
 James Broughton says:

 April 16, 2016 at 7:43 am
 
Karen seems to have struck a chord with many readers. What a contrast to some of the Christian assemblies such as ‘Spring Harvest’ we have attended as a family in the UK, with meetings for all ages and abilities, uplifting worship and the opportunity to share experiences and meet new people.
Reply
 
 
 ruthlee says:

 April 16, 2016 at 8:33 am
 
Hi Karen put a couple of replies to other comments. Thanks for this hobble down memory lane . It really has struck a chord with a lot of us. I expect we could all write the book and some. The experiences would be a damn sight better than the spew from lala jdubs. This will be my first year of actively not attending. Have gotten away with a few escapes through ill health, but this year I have nothing wrong with me so i’m not going ha ha. As for suicides I reckon all of us have stories and friends . My husband lost his best friend and I survived two attempts with the above mentioned health probs. What a rotten track record this org is racking up. All in the name of god. Ummm who is kidding who. Long live that chocolate at the british assemblies and the rain along with stiff knees! ruthlee
Reply
 
 
 John Baptist says:

 April 16, 2016 at 8:42 am
 
I have been out since 1990 completely. And here we are 2016 and 102 years later from the 1914 doctrine date.
 I wonder how many older folks have faded away under the excuse of health issues etc. because they gave up on the supposed fulfillment of the original understanding of that date?
 I would be very discouraged over the whole thing for sure myself.
 If I read a watchtower or hear a talk it’s as if it was 26 years ago and I’m in a time capsule.
 Some folks I know actually feel traumatized by going to those assembly’s for some reason or another.
 To me it’s the same old song and dance when it comes to this religion and their ideologies.
 New food? What new food? Just the same garbage that they try to repackage unsuccessfully through their new light theories.
It should really be, our predictions failed so we gotta come up with a new angle to keep it going or try to make it look fresh.
 So it goes on, the endless scripted talks that are indoctrinating the rank and file to keep them subservient to the watchtower propaganda.
 This religion exemplifies what a true religious cult looks like from the outside. It fits the BITE model on all points for qualifying to be a cult. ( Steve Hassan Cimbating cult mind control)
Reply
 
 Johnship says:

 April 24, 2016 at 10:30 am
 
Ive been in since 1965 . I get panic attacks now if i do too long at assemblies manage to take wife to circuit assem but i dread the 3 day drudgery .ive told wife we will do fri and mon this year.im interested in the talks about shunning .ive told her if they dont anounce they are done with it .this will be my last district regional assem .
Reply
 
 
 
 Xena Porter says:

 April 16, 2016 at 11:58 am
 
Hi Loyd, Karen and everyone! May I please apologise for going off topic. Thanx so much for the support on my side. I am still very much “in,” I am an elder’s wife, served in bethel for 5years with my hubby, we were asked to leave because of my deppression. I pioneered straight from high school, marriage, bethel, depression, porverty, no education!!
Anyway, now outside bethel I enrolled in college (I am a south African by the way). I am realy tired of this religion aka cult.. I am still hanging around I guess because of my husband, I love him soooo much and he loves me and treats me like a queen, we have been married for 8years now! But lately I am changing spiritually and hate this Org. My dear ‘sleeping’ hubby doesn’t want to hear anything negetive about this cult and his favourite “8 gang members in Brooklyn.” I have been labeled, “lost, distorted, blind, apostate, non-witness,” etc by him. He told the elders about my negativity and that he wishes to “step down.” Can anyone help me with this, would he be asked or expected to step down as an elder if I am not keeping up ‘spiritually?’ Please when answering bear in mind I have been slacking spiritually for the past 2 years solely because of my health (depression) meaning, on average I’m attending 4 meetings a month and report 2/3 hours a month.. I have only been questioning my beliefs lately(about 3 months). The blood thing is stressing me out and I am not signing my death sentence (that no blood card)! I feel bad for my husband.. I am in such a dilemma!!
Reply
 
 Tara says:

 April 16, 2016 at 12:41 pm
 
Oh Xena, my heart bleeds for you. I don’t know how to answer your questions so I will leave that up to the ex and current elders and or their wives on here. Just know that you are loved and welcomed among us. My very premature granddaughter has had to have a blood transfusion in her first few weeks of life and I can honestly say that I am glad her father is df’d and I stopped carrying the the ‘card’ many, many months ago. I was surprised to learn that my daughter hasn’t carried hers in year! It makes me wonder now how many others do not have theirs as, you put it, their death sentence, in their wallets. A really interesting point someone brought out regarding blood is that, although ‘we’ are allowed fractions we are not allowed to donate blood. So where do the fractions come from? Ah yes, we are hypocritically allowed to sponge off ‘worldly peoples blood’.
I’m sorry I can offer you no help but I can offer you love and support 🙂
Reply
 
 
 Charles Huff says:

 April 16, 2016 at 1:27 pm
 
Born in?
Listen, I don;t know you and will never judge you, but in MY opinion you are being abused.
It’s abusive to ask honest questions and to be told they are evil.
You married young? Like many JWs?
Maybe your husband os for you, and maybe I’m full of hockey but you sound abused to me.
Reply
 
 
 Andrew Haas says:

 April 16, 2016 at 2:08 pm
 
Hi Xena, your story is heartbreaking but please remember that you are not alone. There are many in the Org that feel exactly like you. I wish I could do something. Would love to talk to you, see you, tell you that there is a life to be had outside the Organisation. That there are beautiful and decent people in the world. I am part of a Christian church and have never felt more at peace. You begin to see life differently. May I say though that you have made great progress so far. Be glad that you have come to the realisation that the “truth” is not the truth. There are so any witnesses who will never realise that. The no blood transfusion issue is a horrific thing to contemplate. I was an MS with three children and can tell you that if my children had needed blood, it would have destroyed me to submit or rebel. Either way I would have been broken. Many Witnesses sign the card and hope that they never have to face the decision in reality. My ex wife has had depression for many years and I have an understanding of what you may be going through. Your husband is torn between you and the Org. I think that stepping down is a great idea for him, so that he can support you in your struggle with depression. I hope that this is his motivation and not doing so because he feels unqualified. I don’t believe you are lost. I think you are on an amazing journey into a new life. It will have rough times along the way but worth the effort in the end. I’m sure that there would be some kind of support group in your locality that may be able to help. Friend request me on Facebook if you like and I will help as much as possible. My home state is Tasmania.
Reply
 
 Xena Porter says:

 April 16, 2016 at 3:52 pm
 
@Andrew Haas
 Thank u a lot for your kind words, that is just what I need now after all the negative energy @the Kingdom HELL.
 I am not a social network kind of girl, so I don’t have a facebook account. But I will definitely get one provided its extremely discreet and that I won’t be exposed, then will contact you then. Thanx for the offer by the way and to think that I was waiting for u all to die at Armageddon disgusts me.
 I am such a tender and sensitive person so after I got depression, I started to think deeply about the future of human kind, I just couldn’t rap it around my depressed soul to see massive dead bodies after Armageddon!
 I see that my time of posting these comments does not correspond with the time written on this blog.. (in south africa)?
 Thanx once again
Reply
 
 Andrew Haas says:

 April 16, 2016 at 9:33 pm
 
Hi Xena, Instead of Facebook just email me andrewjhaas1@gmail.com if that’s more convenient.
Reply
 
 
 
 Idontknowhatodo says:

 April 16, 2016 at 4:23 pm
 
Dear Xena
 Let him step down…it will bring you immense freedom and a whole new perspective on your freedom of mind…take it from me…This is what happened in my case…56 and born into this religion…only 3 years in to my fading…my beautiful husband is still deep deep in…but no longer an elder being used as a tool by the GB… and I am able to carry on with my life with no fear of what they can do to him…let him step down…you would be doing him a favour.
Reply
 
 Xena Porter says:

 April 17, 2016 at 12:02 am
 
@Idontknowhatodo
Thank u for the heads up, that’s kind of a relief to hear it from the horse’s mouth so to speak.
 Did’nt you feel guilty though @the time?
 That’s what I am struggling with, GUILT! My husband realy is on the ‘job’ purely to serve rather than the feeling of “privileges.” He is that rare elder, kind, understanding, and everyone loves him. And literally I know of a few who have asked him to be part of their judicial committees in the past, and they have personaly told me that. So you get the picture: loyal brother and loved elder and a Satanic wife!!! At least that’s how I feel.
What has helped to put my guilt to the next level is the day he told me he wishes to step down, he said he’s doing it so “I could get what I alws wished for, so I could be happy and free” but in such a sarcastic and creepy way. So I am still waiting for the big day..
Reply
 
 Idontknowhatodo says:

 April 17, 2016 at 1:12 am
 
Xena
 I may have felt guilty at fitst because my husband like yours is kind and loving and was an elder for all the right reasons he loved his spiritual brothers….howevrr I have also learned that it is not wrong to nurture yourself and that the most important thing is to free yourself from this organisation…in doing so you will also stop your husband from using his every breath and bone in service of prolonging its death throes…remember…he is serving a lie and as an elder promoting it… think of yourself for a while…its not evil and selfish as we have been constantly taught…its good and should nourish your relationship…my husband is lovely to me…he is kind and loving…no sarcastic words…no nastiness…no pressure…you may find if he steps down the pressure on him will be released and you may be suprised st the resulting change…look after yourself…put you first for a while…The guilt will not last and the mental freedom will be something you may not have experienced before… Im thinking of you…sending you good thoughts…you really are my sister.

 
 
 Erik says:

 April 17, 2016 at 5:11 am
 
uh Xena! Facebook accounts ARE a great tool. Set your privacy controls so that your “Friends” list is private. Then ‘friend’ away. Use the Message box for private heart-to-hearts with certain others whom you feel are trustworthy. You need courage, but we need it for the rest of our lives too!! Your husband sounds like he’s trying to be a good person. However he may feel resentment at you for making his goals harder to meet. Just stay aware of that. Have your own goals.

 
 
 
 
 
 Karen says:

 April 16, 2016 at 2:46 pm
 
Xena, thank you for reading my article. I am sorry that you are going through this difficult time. However, I am happy that you are enrolled in college! Knowledge is power and once you learn, no one can take your knowledge away from you.
I know you love your husband very much. It is evident by what you wrote in your comment. You also said that your husband loves you, too. I am sure he does, but you have every right to question what the JW Organization teaches (and how they act… you should not have been asked to leave Bethel for having depression).
When you went to your husband and shared your doubts/concerns with him, he said that he didn’t want to hear anything negative about the religion (cult). Then, he went on to call you “lost”; “distorted”; “blind”; “apostate” and a “non-Witness”. When people are scared or confused, they resort to name-calling. I think your husband is confused/scared, which is why he has not responded well to your waking up. I don’t doubt his love for you.
It is important for you to remember that your thoughts matter. He shouldn’t have gone to the elders with your concerns, although he probably felt obligated to do so. You are his wife and the conversations you have as husband and wife should be held in confidence. Just between you and him.
To answer your question: if he is asked to step down (or chooses to step down) from his elder position, you are in NO way responsible for it. It is between him and the Organization. Do not let anyone tell you otherwise. If your husband or anyone else tries to “pin the blame” on you, do not accept it.
As an elder’s wife, do not let anyone tell you that you have to behave a certain way or be held to a higher standard in the congregation.
It is OK that you have chosen to attend less meetings. It is OK that you are questioning your beliefs. The blood issue is very disturbing and it is completely normal that it scares you. You are absolutely right not to sign the Blood Card. My brother was one of Watchtower’s victims. I wrote about it here:http://jwsurvey.org/general-information/the-friday-column-the-blood-issue-and-leukemia-one-mans-story
I know you feel bad for your husband. He is in a dilemma, but it is HIS dilemma. (You are not the cause of his dilemma.)
It is good that you are able to write to people who know what you are going through. I have never been a Witness, but many of the people in this comment section have been.
If you want to write to me one-to-one, you can reach me at: jwchoices@cox.net
 Sincerely,
 Karen
Reply
 
 Xena Porter says:

 April 16, 2016 at 3:33 pm
 
@Karen
“As an elder’s wife, do not let anyone tell you that you have to behave a certain way or be held to a higher standard in the congregation.”
Is it you Karen who is the sole channel of God or the GB? Lol, U seem to have read my heart. I have always felt like those indoctrinated wives in our cong are expecting me to behave a certain way since maybe I’m an ex bethelite elder’s wife, they have even gossiped about my “weakness.” But now I don’t care anymore, my health deteriorated around the time of the gossip mill and ended up attempting suicide 3 times!
 I am trying to see a therapist because I don’t want to go back to my old ways health wise (being suicidal) in case the gossip mill starts again, especially now that my husband has betrayed my trust by telling on me to the elders knowing how sensitive I am.
 Thank u so much for your support.
Reply
 
 Karen says:

 April 16, 2016 at 4:29 pm
 
Xena,
 I am glad to know that you are willing to see a therapist. Is there a social service agency that you can visit to get a list of therapists in your area? When the rumor mill starts up, please remember that these women have no hold over you. Their gossip and lies don’t define you. I know you feel betrayed by your husband running to the elders with the information you told your husband in confidence. When you are feeling down, try to remind yourself that there is a community of people here for you. Your life is precious.
 Karen
Reply
 
 
 
 
 John Redwood says:

 April 17, 2016 at 10:52 am
 
Dear Xena
We will reply offline and assist you privately. Thank you for reaching out 🙂
John Redwood
Reply
 
 
 Johnship says:

 April 24, 2016 at 10:38 am
 
Am same you not alone..ive never been an elder as i tried m servant and it gave me mental breakdown .that was in 70s have been on medication ever since.i would likevto just walk away but my wife still trusts the GB .so am fadeing .dont do anything now .tell the elders never again dont even mention reaching out. Am now 72 .still got my faith in jesus .but every day takes its toll .you are not alone sis ..
Reply
 
 
 
 Xena Porter says:

 April 16, 2016 at 2:20 pm
 
@Tara
 oh wow thanx so much I honestly was not expecting that much support. Its lonely to be married to some one who is all “in” and u don’t believe ANY of the jw crap.. Thank u for being here for me so to speak.
@Charles Huff
 I’d say I was kind of born in, my mom was baptized when I was 10 so I did experience a few Xmas, bdays, and new years b4 she was dipped. But I studied along with her and got baptized @13 years! Yes I married very young, @19. I pioneered while STILL in high school then continued after high school for a year then met my husband who was already in bethel, we got married then straight from honeymoon to bethel and slaved for 5years.
I honestly don’t feel abused by him, he is very kind and tries to understand my illness. He has never physically, verbally tried anything to hurt me. But ever since I started to fall away from the “Truth” and started to question things like the org’s 10 year hypocrisy with the UN, the blood transfusions deadly nonsense, and the fact that I wasted my time by not pursuing education, he is not that kind when it comes to me missing meetings “for no good reason,” and the fact that i am “lazy” to share in the ministry. I told him that the Yoke is not supposed to be heavy but rather light and I personaly feel that the GB yoke is too much to bear.
 Our conversations especially about the GB alws end with us fighting, I am really tired, I am sorry to say I hate those men.
 Thanx so much guys for listening!!
Reply
 
 Tara says:

 April 17, 2016 at 6:46 am
 
There are many here for you Xena. I check in each day for a moral boost. I have been in hospital for depression and attempted suicide. My husband – a non witness left me but thankfully I see it as dodging a bullet. Waking up to the truth about the truth was like having a huge screen pulled away. I started to see flaws in the doctrines straight away until I could no longer, in good conscience condone what was being said and done in Gods name. I read each day of people like yourself who have taken a step towards life. Just remember your husband is a grown man. He has the right to step down as an elder and as ‘head of the house’ that is his decision. I wouldn’t be drawn into any arguments about the 7 numpties in New York. Just tell him you love him very much but you need to be true to yourself. I told two of the elders that ‘visited’ me that it was my conscience, why I attended my df’d sons wedding. They couldn’t say anything to me because God gave me a conscience and the free will to use it. I no longer go to meetings and will not attend the convention again. nor will I attend the memorials from now on. I still have my faith in God but it is very different to the WT ideals. I have to find my own peace with God and it’s not at a KH. I have a little mantra that I use when I start to feel overwhelmed ‘It’s not good, or bad. It’s not right or wrong. It just is’.
Reply
 
 
 
 Dwayne Caron says:

 April 17, 2016 at 8:38 am
 
Karenne,
 Is there any chance that the picture of the 1979 “Divine Love” district convention was taken at Bayfront Stadium in St. Petersburg? If so, I was there.
 We used to come down from New Hampshire to visit my Grand Parents in Dunedin and take in the assembly. Strangely, as boring as the conventions were, I look back somewhat fondly at them. You couldn’t drag me there now but back in that era they had a certain charm. Got us out of the awful normal routine of being a witness.
Reply
 
 Karen says:

 April 17, 2016 at 4:33 pm
 
Dwayne,
 Yes, that picture was taken at the Bayfront Center. I was visiting my brother (in Clearwater Beach) for the summer and he was assigned to that convention location. I also enjoyed parts of the convention. I liked walking around between sessions and I liked watching the Drama and the costumes. During the talks, I just pretended to be taking notes… but I was really writing letters to my friends in CT.
Reply
 
 
 
 Sharon Christensen says:

 April 17, 2016 at 9:28 pm
 
Hello, from Man. Canada…Love you all…and sooomuch appreciate all comments! Mad me smile…no matter where we arein world…coped as per usual…lites wise…went to assemblies for same reasons…we were a poor family to, so the assemblies were our only vacation…then rush back home cuz haying etc. had to be done on the farm, so then my poor father could go back to the bush work…never a rest for him. He too, would nod off cuz he was soo tired…Mom give him what for…so poor Father would learn to nod off, open eyed! :)). But several yrs before he passed away, he stopped going. He said they were getting far to modern for him. He was a humble, good person who loved Jehovah, but could see the hypocrisy in the Jw orgy…and how they were getting soo money hungry. Sorry about your loosing your brother Karen..I to lost brother in a logging accident, run ragged by trying to measure up in this organization that pushes it’s people to the limits, physically and mentally exhausted…having the flu on top of all…and could not get away fast enough from a falling tree he was working on. Sorry about your Mom to…I was a battered wife for 17yrs, 3 mos and 10 days…always told of what God expects of women…and never measureing up to the elders and my previous husbands expectations though I gave my all…and eventually went to the world for safety and help…and that is where my journey out of this wicked and harmful religion progressed further….except for nightmares that still bother me often even after several yrs of being away from JW.org…and my Dear Mother from time to time…reminding me to …return to “true”worship..I am free…feels good to be free from such a horrible controlling orgy…my heart is with all of those still leaving, may they have the strength and will power to do so, and in turn help others to do the same. Thanx once again…it was a joy and comfort to read all…all gives a person strength, and a sense of belonging to a precious group, who have sooo much incommon, no matter where we are in the world…once again…much love to all.
Reply
 
 
 Ocma says:

 April 18, 2016 at 12:48 am
 
I disliked the convention and special assembly days more than the 3 weekly meetings. You couldn’t pay me to go back. I haaaaated the drama. Here in New Zealand, the Bros and sisters have to lipsynch along to the American recording. It’s ridiculous. All the dramatic gesturing. The stage hands coming in while the dramatic music played so they could carry in a couch and carry off a rock.
 The only good thing was, our mum would buy lollies for us and share them out during the talks.
 The Napier Municipal Theatre had a coloured dome light in the ceiling, spent most my time staring at it waiting for it to change colour.
 As for the experiences, one young sister was interviewed for her bravery and loyalty to Jenovah, regarding a medical issue and her views on no blood. All lies. We knew her personally and knew that she had burst into tears and her mother had to speak to the dr for her.
Reply
 
 
 Jaime says:

 April 18, 2016 at 7:26 am
 
Thank you Karenne!
 Oh those signs! In the women’s stalls they always have one that says something like: DO NOT PLACE SANITARY NAPKINS IN THE TOILET. It is in the boldest font you can imagine, is about three inches tall, is about two feet wide and six inches tall, and is one foot away from your face. First of all, why use the words sanitary napkins? I hated that word in the 80s, and it was not even used back then. I realized last year this sign is another power trip for the leaders in many ways. First, “sanitary napkins” are o.k., so a girl might think tampons are not acceptable (omg, keep that hymen in tact!!!). Second, it is screaming at us. The sign is so large; how many menstruating women are legally blind needing this large sign? Third, it is patronizing, as if we do not know what to do in the restroom with our necessary products, and the largeness is insulting leaving us feeling a bit smaller. You all can probably think of more controlling aspects of this sign.
Reply
 
 
 Wip it says:

 April 18, 2016 at 8:28 pm
 
In the southern hemisphere we have ours in Winter, flu season, i found out, that’s because they want the same time as the northern hemisphere, because that’s where WT is, it was also in a month where we had to pay rates, so always an expense, as the years rolled on we had more money so could afford to stay a bit longer in the city & have a bit of a holiday, now that’s changed because we go to the assembly hall, but now we can choose another month to go, (Trapped by Family) some of my best assemblies were when my young daughter was sick a few times & i would stay at the unit looking after her, she would sleep all day & i would just drink wine & watch the boats on the water, i said to friends that her being sick was a blessing, got to miss a few days here & there, what gets me is the days are way to long (torture) being their with young kids is a curse, & a complete waste of time.
Reply
 
 
 HSS says:

 April 20, 2016 at 2:48 am
 
I was always excited to go to the conventions. But not for the material.
 I went to conventions to:
 *Scope out the sisters and see how sexy they were dressed.
 *Flirt with sisters and other females who weren’t baptised yet.
 *Flirt with older unmarried/divorced sisters.
 *Collect sisters’ phone numbers/addresses.
Reply
 
 
 Cherie says:

 April 20, 2016 at 5:24 am
 
I just reread this article and listened to the clip from the talk. What do they have against giraffes? According to “What Animal Are You?” Giraffes are “graceful.” Graceful people “seek to make others feel like they’re the most important person with whom they can spend time, and always put the needs of others first. They live according to personal standards that are higher than any given code of conduct, and incorporate dignity, honor, and respect in extending grace to others—even when things have not gone their way.” The Quiz is based on the book “Surviving Your Serengeti” by Stefan Swanepoel. Take it at http://www.whatanimalami.com 🙂 Have fun.
Reply
 
 
 Gabrielle Guichard says:

 April 20, 2016 at 12:51 pm
 
The second (and last) convention I went to was before 2000, I don’t remember the exact time. They officially said they were in favor of the death penalty (with a god who kills by the millions, not a surprise). So I asked an elder if a JW could be an executioner. Obviously he had not seen the thing from this point of view! I and my husband decided not to go further in our study of the bible.
Reply
 
 
 Julien says:

 April 28, 2016 at 10:27 am
 
I remember my mother inviting young brothers over for dinner. Turns out they where trying to marry me off so if some brother showed interest (aka: got caught by my mom’s hawk eye staring at me) she would invite them over for dinner. Since i had been raised to either go to bethel or become a missionary I really wasnt interested in getting married. But soon I found myself comparing my worldy high school male friends (which I didnt care one fig if I wasnt supposed to have them or not) with the brothers. All the brothers appeared to me boring intellectual drains. I also didnt like the idea of someone telling me what I should or should not do in bed with a husband. I also wasnt very interested in forever cleaning cooking and cleaning up after a husband. I may had been born into it but nothing they tried could kill my fiery personality (and yes they tried and tried and tried). I woke up shortly upin turning 18 and i just had had enough. I faked it for about an extra 18 months until i got my degree and got out. How did i get a degree well not on their dime. But it was encourage simply because my parents had an invested self interest. Around this time my mom had gotten sick and they needed me to work instead of going off to bethel. They wanted to ensure I wasnt bringing home slave wages. Unfortunately this just added to my resolution to leave since I never could never talk to them about anything. Ooops sorry for the long post. Its been over 25 years and ive never really talked to anyone about it.
Reply
 
 
 ronnyb says:

 May 1, 2016 at 7:31 pm
 
I know im out of topic,but i have 2 questions if someone may. What the heck dies the B on Borg stand for,i know org is organization and does anyone have any info on the bethel layoffs? Thnx
Reply
 
 Winston Smith says:

 May 1, 2016 at 7:45 pm
 
The Borg are a fictional alien race that appear as recurring antagonists in the Star Trek franchise. The Borg are a collection of species that have been turned into cybernetic organisms functioning as drones in a hive mind called “the Collective” or “the Hive”. The Borg use a process called assimilation to force other species into the Collective by injecting microscopic machines called nanoprobes.
WS
Reply
 
 
 
 Grace says:

 May 1, 2016 at 7:39 pm
 
ronnyb,
I think the B on borg is a reference to star trek. The trek fans can explain more on that.
The only Bethel layoffs that I know of, is here in Australia the Sydney Bethel has sent home around half of there staff. I’m not sure how many more have gone since I last heard that.
Reply
 
 ronnyb says:

 May 1, 2016 at 8:12 pm
 
Ok thank you Grace for the update.
Reply
 
 
 
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← The Friday Column: The Annual Jehovah’s Witness Convention: a Pseudo-utopia
News Bulletin: Watchtower Faces Dilemma in Sex Abuse Ruling →
 
Science-denial to be a regular feature of Watchtower’s monthly JW Broadcasting episodes
avatar 
Posted on April 16, 2016

Yaroslav XXX and Professor Raj Kalaria endorse Watchtower's anti-evolution stance
Yaroslav Dovhanych and Professor Raj Kalaria endorse Watchtower’s anti-evolution stance

Watchtower has a long and ignominious history with its forays into the realm of science.
Charles Taze Russell’s 1914 film The Photo-Drama of Creation advised cinema audiences that Earth was assembled in 49,000 years, that Noah’s Flood was caused by a Saturn-like orbital ring of water collapsing, and that getting rid of bacteria would be a good thing.
Russell’s ugly legacy of pseudo-science was continued by his successor Rutherford, who used the organization’s publications to spread his own brand of quackery.
The January 16, 1924 edition of the Golden Age proclaimed that: “It has never been proven that a single disease is due to germs.” And in his 1928 book Reconciliation, Rutherford denounced human evolution as an “insult to Jehovah,” instructing his followers: “it becomes the duty of the Christian to refuse to consider the man-made evidence offered by so-called scientists.”
Watchtower has continued to embrace this head-in-the-sand, backwards approach to science ever since. And the latest JW Broadcasting episode, hosted by Governing Body helper William Malenfant, indicates an escalation by the organization in its war against evolution, which it recently dismissed as a “doctrine” and a “false teaching.”

“One widespread false teaching that blinds people to the truth about God is the doctrine of evolution.” (Watchtower study edition, Oct 15, 2013, pp. 7-11)
The April 2016 broadcast sees Malenfant introducing a new feature in which scientists who happen to be Jehovah’s Witnesses are interviewed about their views on evolution. First up is Yaroslav Dovhanych, a Russian zoologist, followed by Professor Raj Kalaria, a brain researcher at Newcastle University in England.
Predictably, in their attempts to refute evolution, both Dovhanych and Kalaria demonstrate that their grasp on evolutionary theory is tenuous at best.


DNA: proof of creationism?
“The evolutionary theory, in my opinion, quite reasonably argued that there is no creator,” says Dovhanych, describing his pre-creationist experience. “[It argues] that everything was shaped by a series of random changes and combinations.”
Firstly, we can be grateful that not everyone who believes in God also dismisses evolution. A number of prominent scientists, including Francis Collins (Director of the National Institutes of Health in America), are able to reconcile both.
Secondly, natural selection is far from a random process. When successive generations of an organism are shaped by their surroundings, and an environment selects which attributes are best suited to reproduction and survival, what we have is cause and effect. Evolution is a guided process, even if natural forces rather than a supreme celestial supervisor are doing the guiding.
Dovhanych enjoys a moment of contemplation
Dovhanych enjoys a moment of contemplation
 
“When I studied nature through this lens [of the evolution theory],” Dovhanych continues, “I began to notice things that contradicted the theory of evolution. I found things that couldn’t have been formed by natural selection.”
Conveniently, none of these “things” are cited for our edification. However, Dovhanych at least teases an example that suggests his “contradictions” may not have stood up to much scrutiny.
“As I started to wonder about this, whether there is a creator, I began to discover more facts contradicting the theory of evolution,” he muses. “Can anyone say that some computer programs appeared simply by chance? In contrast, evolutionists would like us to believe that DNA was formed by evolution. To illustrate, say you take some letter blocks, pour them on to the table, and the Encyclopaedia Britannica is formed. There is an even smaller probability that DNA originated by evolution.”
Creationists like Ray Comfort (left) and Ken Ham (right) are renowned for trying to blur the lines between chemical and biological evolution
Creationists like Ray Comfort (left) and Ken Ham (right) are renowned for trying to blur the lines between chemical and biological evolution

Dovhanych thus resorts to the age-old trick, repeatedly used by the likes of Ken Ham and Ray Comfort, of trying to lump biological evolution together with chemical evolution, or abiogenesis. He is hoping that nobody will consider the gaping difference between the two, namely that living organisms are imbued with key components for natural selection, i.e. reproduction and scope for genetic variation.
Chemicals do not normally have the same potential; thus the idea of complex self-replicating chemical structures like DNA arising spontaneously is much harder to comprehend, even if it is not theoretically impossible. Thus, to discredit the proven science of biological evolution, Dovhanych bypasses it altogether by invoking the implausibility of DNA originating through natural forces.
Though abiogenesis is not established science in the same way as biological evolution, its seeming implausibility diminishes the more you consider the observed natural tendencies of certain chemicals to form complex structures when subjected to various repetitive processes, such as rising and falling tides, the warmth and cold of day and night, or frequent geo-thermal eruptions.
Rather than behaving like stationary “letter blocks,” under the right conditions chemical compounds can be drawn to each other in remarkable ways, as the following video explains…


Once you factor in hundreds of millions of years of natural experimentation (scientists think it took the first billion of Earth’s 4.5 billion-year history for the earliest life-forms to develop), and infinite possibilities for experiments to go wrong, you begin to understand why abiogenesis is a worthy area of study. Its investigation certainly makes more sense than throwing in the towel because life must have originated through an originator who is above any questioning over his, her or its origin.
The idea of DNA arising naturally will certainly come to sound even less silly if, as many astro-biologists predict, life is found to be naturally occurring elsewhere in our solar-system. After all, if Earth was seeded with plant and animal life solely for the enjoyment of humans, for whose benefit did God repeat the trick on the dusty plains of Mars, or in the frigid, sub-surface waters of Europa?
The Creationist Professor
Slightly less sophisticated in his efforts to discredit evolution was Professor Raj Kalaria, who stuck to misrepresenting evolution as “random,” and as contradicted by “phenomenal complexity.”
“We were taught about evolution of life, and this was just part of the curriculum,” said Kalaria. “At the time there were no other options, as it were. God did not come in the picture at all, or God creating the heavens and the earth, as it were, never came in the picture.”
One wonders whether Professor Kalaria is equally indignant that he was never given “other options” when germ theory, or the theory of gravity, or the theory of plate tectonics came up in class.
Professor Kalaria busies himself at Newcastle University
Professor Kalaria busies himself at Newcastle University
 
“The brain is an extremely complex organ,” Kalaria continues. “And brain is what we are; what I am, what you are. No brain, no life. It’s as simple as that.”
But for 8 million Jehovah’s Witnesses worldwide, including Kalaria, it isn’t as simple as that. Kalaria supports the belief that human life can continue once a brain dies so long as its owner surrendered all critical thinking skills, and pledged full loyalty to a group of religious leaders based in New York.
Professor Kalaria believes that Christ will rule in heaven with 144,000 former humans who are no longer in need of their brains
Professor Kalaria believes that Christ will rule in heaven with 144,000 former humans who are no longer in need of their brains

In Kalaria’s mind, some people will be able to live as spirit creatures in heaven without brains, and these kingly entities will rule over a future Earth populated solely by Jehovah’s Witnesses, many of whom will be resurrected with new brains to replace the ones they lost at death.
Not very scientific, is it?!
“We started looking at the nerve cells themselves in terms of the volume and the number,” says Kalaria, suggesting certain colleagues at Newcastle University join him in his bold conclusions. To Kalaria, anti-science views probably have more weight when nameless others are said to concur.
“And it’s phenomenal that in that small area of the brain there are some 1.4 billion neurons. So the number of connections that make us, synapses they make, is phenomenal. Absolutely phenomenal. And so when you think about the complexity of all that, how is it possible that that is just by random chance? It has to be guided.”
Scientists would agree that it has to be guided, but they would not agree that the “guide” is a supreme entity who is keenly interested in what we do when we are naked, or how tight our pants are, or whether we take part in an immersion ritual. Natural selection, as explained, is a guiding force. And it is more than capable of producing “phenomenal complexity.”
In fact, when one truly grasps natural selection, a feat Professor Kalaria is yet to accomplish, one appreciates why complexity does not negate evolution. Pointing to complexity as evidence of God is otherwise known as “God of the gaps” reasoning, i.e. “I don’t know how this happened, therefore God did it.”
As convenient as this line of reasoning may be, it has an achilles heel – namely a failure to subject the creator himself to similar scrutiny. As Richard Dawkins observes in The Blind Watchmaker:

“If we want to postulate a deity capable of engineering all the organized complexity in the world, either instantaneously or by guiding evolution, that deity must have been vastly complex in the first place. The creationist, whether a naive Bible-thumper or an educated bishop, simply postulates an already existing being of prodigious intelligence and complexity. If we are going to allow ourselves the luxury of postulating organized complexity without offering an explanation, we might as well make a job of it and simply postulate the existence of life as we know it!”
The University closes ranks
I decided to reach out to Newcastle University to find out whether it endorses Professor Kalaria’s stance on evolution, and found myself in a rather frustrating email exchange with the Media Relations Manager at the University’s Faculty of Medical Sciences. After much to-ing and fro-ing, an official statement was finally forthcoming…
Dear Lloyd,
Please see the comment below.
A Newcastle University spokesperson said: “Academic freedom, which is written into Newcastle University’s statutes, allows all academic staff freedom to put forward opinions that do not necessarily represent the University.”
Best wishes,
That, I suppose, is a polite way of saying: “we don’t want to be associated with what this guy is saying.” Even so, I felt the University could be more emphatic given Kalaria’s suggestion that his views are shared. I replied…
Thank you…
Forgive me, but do you have any comment on Professor Kalaria saying “we,” thereby implying the support of his colleagues for his findings?
And does Newcastle University support Professor Kalaria’s anti-evolution views, or not?
The answer?
Dear Lloyd,
We have nothing further to add other than the statement provided.
Best wishes…
Though I can understand the representative’s awkward position as someone who shares a payroll with Professor Kalaria, I do feel saddened that, in this age of political correctness, Newcastle University is not able to be more robust in distancing itself from a piece of propaganda aimed at indoctrinating an entire generation to view science with suspicion.
newcastle_2571059b
Newcastle University has been less than emphatic in distancing itself from Kalaria’s comments

Thanks to his Hindu upbringing, Professor Kalaria may be enjoying the benefits of a decent education that allows him to live comfortably. But the vast majority of Witness children who will be made to absorb his anti-science rhetoric will have no such option.
They will be steered away from higher education, and taught to frown upon the scientific consensus wherever this conflicts with the ideas of Sam, Steve, Mark, Geoff, Dave, Tony and Gerrit.
Raj Kalaria may be entitled to his own opinion, but he also has a moral duty towards the impressionable minds who may be swayed by his credentials.
By using his reputation as a university Professor in this way, even implying the support of his colleagues, Kalaria has made himself an accessory in the exporting of backwards, ignorant, anti-science dogma at the expense of the intellectual development of countless children who will take his words seriously. And Newcastle University is happy to shrug its shoulders and effectively say: “it has nothing to do with us.”
More to come?
Goodness knows what pseudo-scientist double-act will replace Dovhanych and Kalaria as the next would-be demolishers of Darwin’s theory in future videos, but we can be reasonably assured of two things: (1) they will have a fundamental lack of understanding of evolutionary theory, and (2) they will be willing to jettison their credibility in furtherance of Watchtower’s creationist agenda.
We can at least be grateful that if the Watchtower cult were considered an organism, the habitat of the internet age is proving far less conducive to its survival than the age of ignorance from whence it spawned.
 
new-cedars-signature3
 
 
 
 
 
 
Further reading…
◾Rawstory: Jehovah’s Witnesses try to debunk evolution in their latest video – but come up short again
◾Liberal America: Jehovah’s Witnesses Attempt To Disprove Evolution, Fail Miserably
◾Friendly Atheist: Jehovah’s Witnesses Release Video Arguing That Evolution is a Myth
◾Freethinker: UK scientist helps Christian cult to promote creationism
◾Watchtower AGAIN misquotes scientist to argue against evolution – and this time, it’s personal!
◾Busted! – Recently disfellowshipped son finds shocking misquote in ‘Creation’ book
◾JW.org’s identity crisis: Jehovah’s Witnesses “do not agree with creationism”
Related video…




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← The Friday Column: The Annual Jehovah’s Witness Convention: a Pseudo-utopia
News Bulletin: Watchtower Faces Dilemma in Sex Abuse Ruling →
 
167 Responses to Science-denial to be a regular feature of Watchtower’s monthly JW Broadcasting episodes


Newer Comments →
 
 Paul says:

 April 16, 2016 at 7:31 am
 
Thanks for sharing your research and expertise. Your thoughts are much appreciated.
Reply
 
 
 Nunya says:

 April 16, 2016 at 7:46 am
 
Just gonna say it this article is very pro atheism in some of its satire. Given the fact that comments by those that support creation regardless of Watchtower’s view would likely not even be shown here, how is this article not contradictory to the rules of this site itself?
Reply
 
 DC says:

 April 16, 2016 at 8:12 am
 
This entire site IS almost fully atheistic,and yes,it is contradictional.The author isnt even a scientist,but pretends to.
Reply
 
 Griff says:

 April 16, 2016 at 8:32 am
 
You don’t need to be a scientist to understand evolution, nor do you require a college degree to do research and understand it.
I felt the description of JW’s view of evolution was accurate. The Society has a long record of misquoting scientists to further their own view on creation.
Whether you are a creationist or evolutionist, hurling derogatory comments at the author is juvenile at best. It is a missed opportunity to have an open dialogue and exchange of ideas.
Critical thinking…it’s not for everyone.
Reply
 
 Sval says:

 April 16, 2016 at 6:39 pm
 
Well put. I enjoy reading the different opinions from the authors and the replies from the readers. One of the reasons I left the organizations was so that I could learn how to think on my own and that involves being open minded. Whether I agree with it or not I thoroughly enjoyed the article.
Reply
 
 
 
 Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:

 April 16, 2016 at 11:02 am
 
Jesus was not a scientist but some scientists like these one believe he created everything!!
Reply
 
 
 
 Cappytan says:

 April 16, 2016 at 8:21 am
 
It isn’t contradictory, because the site owner can do what he pleases with the site.
Do you have any evidence to refute the position that evolution is a fact and that creationism is easily refuted with logic, reason and facts?
Reply
 
 
 Griff says:

 April 16, 2016 at 8:23 am
 
Really enjoyed this article Lloyd!
Reply
 
 
 Cedars says:

 April 16, 2016 at 8:38 am
 
This article isn’t pro-atheism. It is written from an admittedly atheist perspective (I cannot help that, being an atheist), but it is first and foremost an article on science and Watchtower’s denial of it. I acknowledge people’s right to believe whatever they like, and even cite an example of a pro-evolution scientist who is also a believer in God. This article is absolutely in harmony with our website’s policy on religious neutrality.
Reply
 
 
 Tom Mellor says:

 April 16, 2016 at 12:14 pm
 
Not pro atheism, pro evidence. That evolution occurs is undeniable. Evolution and god’s existence are unrelated.
Reply
 
 
 Isaac J. Harris says:

 April 16, 2016 at 4:14 pm
 
I think Lloyd made it clear that you don’t have to pick one of the other, as Francis Collins is both a believer and an “evolutionist.” This may be a contradiction for you, but there are others who don’t share that view.
I’m not sure how the article is “pro atheism.” It does make a fun of a few points of JW teachings, such as references to tight pants (this is something of an inside joke if you aren’t familiar with JW TV). But I’m not sure how it is “pro atheism.” Unless you’re equating being pro-evolution with being pro-atheism? If so, the two don’t actually go together. They are consistent, but you don’t have to be pro-evolution or even pro-science to be an atheist.
Reply
 
 Isaac J. Harris says:

 April 16, 2016 at 4:14 pm
 
Sorry, one OR the other. 🙂
Reply
 
 
 Winston Smith says:

 April 17, 2016 at 5:46 am
 
@Isaac
 I concur. The belief in God and the acceptance of the scientific feasibility of evolution are not mutually exclusive. To draw such an either-or conclusion has been called a “fools choice.” This reasoning has been long promoted by the Watchtower (along with other fundamentalist groups) and I think it has a tendency to stay with folks even after they escape the cult.
I, for one, believe in a creator and accept the scientific reasoning supporting evolution. I believe the creator endowed is with the intellectual capacity to discover the “secrets” of the method of his creative works and to deny this process of discovery based on human bias is actually an insult to the creator. The study of evolution has actually helped me to have a greater appreciation for the creator not less.
WS
Reply
 
 Winston Smith says:

 April 17, 2016 at 5:47 am
 
Should state “endowed us” rather than “endowed is”
Reply
 
 
 
 
 
 Mich says:

 April 16, 2016 at 8:27 am
 
What’s up with this post exactly? Is it standing in support of evolution or being neutral? Anyway i still appreciate the scientific researches and viewpoints of others.
Reply
 
 Tom Mellor says:

 April 16, 2016 at 12:18 pm
 
Sorry, but supporting evolution does not mean you lack neutrality. The weight of evidence for evolution is immense.
Would you treat Newton’s alchemy and modern chemistry on equal footing, and view those who give equal weight to each as being ”neutral”? Probably not.
More information on this topic: https://theconversation.com/no-youre-not-entitled-to-your-opinion-9978
Reply
 
 
 Isaac J. Harris says:

 April 16, 2016 at 4:17 pm
 
I’m not sure how an article discussing the WTS’s treatment of the theory of evolution as lacking religious neutrality. Unless you equate evolution with atheism? Atheism has nothing to do with evolution. They are consistent, just as the theory of gravity or political ideas of secularism are consistent with atheism, but you can be an atheist without being pro-evolution.
Reply
 
 
 
 rahab says:

 April 16, 2016 at 8:42 am
 
you sound like you are preaching evolution,something that goes against your own rules of this forum.you also sound angry whenever ppl express a believe in God.av always agreed with everything else you say but here I beg to differ.
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 April 16, 2016 at 9:06 am
 
Preaching evolution? If I am guilty of that, then so is any respectable biology teacher.
Reply
 
 
 Cappytan says:

 April 16, 2016 at 9:38 am
 
This isn’t a forum, it’s a blog. And the “rules” apply to the comment section only. Ugh. Why don’t you pray for him to stop being an atheist?
Reply
 
 
 Isaac J. Harris says:

 April 16, 2016 at 4:19 pm
 
It seems like a lot of people leaving comments associate evolution with atheism? I’m assuming this is what’s happening. The two have nothing to do with one another. You don’t have to be a pro-evolution to be an atheist.
If this isn’t the source of the confusion, then I’m not sure how the article violates any of the site’s rules on religious neutrality.
Reply
 
 
 
 Markie says:

 April 16, 2016 at 8:52 am
 
Lloyd do you have a scientific background? Somehow I don’t think you do. I am a JW that is by worldly standards highly educated. Went to school while I was JW and so did a lot of my family and friends. We are all attorneys, Nurse practitioners, engineers etc.. I actually know a lot if JWs that have some type of degree. All my children do. So not all JWs are poorly educated or listen to a bunch of tubby wind bags from Brooklyn who are soon to be moving into their new digs.
 What I learned about the theory of evolution back when I was in school (over thirty years ago) looks foolish and outdated today. And what they know today will probably look stupid years from now. My point is that we as humans don’t really know how we got here and probably will never know. I still like to hold on to the hope that God is out there somewhere and that someday he will step in a change things for the better. Although I have my doubts. At this point to me the belief in evolution is just about as tenuous as believing in a higher power.
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 April 16, 2016 at 9:05 am
 
Do you have anything specific in my article you wish you dispute, or is the fact that I am not a scientist your only argument against what I have written? If so, why not apply the same logic to the unnamed, presumably under-qualified writers of the Awake articles who misquote scientists in their efforts to refute science?
Reply
 
 Markie says:

 April 16, 2016 at 9:36 am
 
Not really an argument. Just pointing out the fact that you are just about as qualified as the writers of the Awake magazine.
 And I am very aware of how the writers of the Watchtower and Awake magazine parse writings of other people to obtain the point that they are trying bring out. One that comes to mind is an article on higher education a few years back where they parsed and misquoted articles from other publications to show how useless higher education is. My pet peeve with the tubby tight pants men.
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 April 16, 2016 at 9:46 am
 
Thank you for your honesty. Hopefully you understand that I am just as entitled to write about science as the Awake writers are, and I should be judged on the truthfulness of what I write rather than on my credentials.
Reply
 
 
 Vox Populi says:

 April 16, 2016 at 9:50 am
 
@ Markie
If you refute what Cedars has written, bring evidence to the contrary.
Reply
 
 
 
 
 Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:

 April 16, 2016 at 11:10 am
 
I think it is easier to believe in evolution than in “god of the Bible”!!
Richard Dawkins describes it this way:
“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
Do you need to be a scientist to understand that? All you need is to open the Bible and get to know that Monster!!
Reply
 
 John Walsh says:

 April 16, 2016 at 6:18 pm
 
HJDD, well said, which is precisely why the J-Dubs and most other extremist religions are the Monsters that they are, in the image of God! These parasitic organizations are driven by such qualities in their leadership.
Reply
 
 
 
 Isaac J. Harris says:

 April 16, 2016 at 4:26 pm
 
It isn’t about Lloyd’s expertise. It’s about his evidence and his arguments. Same for the WTS. You would certainly be well within your rights to check his facts (which is true even if he were an expert) and to post any errors you find. But what is wrong with someone doing the research and writing an article about it?
To put it another way, how many letters or comments have you left for the WTS with this complaint? The Society has written many articles on subjects that lie far outside the expertise of its writing department. With all due respect, I don’t think you’re being very fair here.
Reply
 
 Outandabout says:

 April 16, 2016 at 8:36 pm
 
I notice that Lloyd invites all readers of articles on this site to let him know if they notice anything that is incorrect and he will correct it. Does any similar statement appear on JW.Org or any of it’s publications? I think the unspoken statement for JW’s is ‘if you notice anything wrong and don’t shut the f–k up about it, you’re dead’
I think we can cut him a bit of slack and do our own research if we have any doubts about what he’s written, even though it’s not hard to get his point.
Reply
 
 
 
 Sval says:

 April 16, 2016 at 7:03 pm
 
If you ARE a JW…what are you doing on this sight? You evidently are searching for something, and if you are you HAVE to open your mind to ideas other than what the WT teaches.
Reply
 
 M Saurus says:

 April 18, 2016 at 8:50 am
 
I always think it’s funny when a supposed JW comes on here and defends or disputes. IF you are looking at this site, you are NOT a true JW. You just broke the rules and have committed a disfellowshipping offense.
Reply
 
 
 
 Minion says:

 April 18, 2016 at 10:03 pm
 
@ marky,
You also need to question the 7 men from Brooklyn, when they released the silver sword, they did several things:
Why, they kept the bible crew writers un-named?
Why, the total bible pages are 100 pages shorter?
Why, the new softer tone of language is used, and removed from the original tone of language?
By why of these critical and extreme changes, does this discredit the authority of the message?
Why the need of change now, if, the end is so close?
Please explain, in detail if you can, awaiting your response.
Peace out,
Reply
 
 
 
 D. Charles Pyle says:

 April 16, 2016 at 9:13 am
 
“‘The evolutionary theory, in my opinion, quite reasonably argued that there is no creator,’ says Dovhanych, describing his pre-creationist experience.”
And, yet, even Darwin himself wasn’t willing to leave the Creator out of the entire equation. He himself wrote the following in his conclusion, as found on pages 428-429 in the sixth (1872) edition of his “On the Origin of Species”:
“Authors of the highest eminence seem to be fully satisfied with the view that each species has been independently created. To my mind it accords better with what we know of the laws impressed on matter by the Creator, that the production and extinction of the past and present inhabitants of the world should have been due to secondary causes, like those determining the birth and death of the individual. When I view all beings not as special creations, but as lineal descendants of some few beings which lived long before the first bed of the Cambrian system was deposited, they seem to me to become ennobled. …
“These laws, taken in the largest sense, being Growth with Reproduction; Inheritance which is almost implied by reproduction; Variability from the indirect and direct action of the external conditions of life, and from use and disuse; a Ratio of Increase so high as to lead to a Struggle for Life, and as a consequence to Natural Selection, entailing Divergence of Character and the Extinction of less-improved forms. Thus, from the war of nature, from famine and death, the most exalted object which we are capable of conceiving, namely, the production of the higher animals, directly follows. There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.”
http://darwin-online.org.uk/converted/scans/1872_Origin_F391(online)/1872_Origin_F391_456.jpg
http://darwin-online.org.uk/converted/scans/1872_Origin_F391(online)/1872_Origin_F391_457.jpg
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 April 16, 2016 at 9:16 am
 
Thank you for demonstrating that accepting evolution does not automatically negate belief in God. I personally struggle to square the circle, but the same cannot be said for everyone, for which I am grateful.
Reply
 
 D. Charles Pyle says:

 April 22, 2016 at 4:03 pm
 
You’re welcome. I, however, can relate to your situation. Been there; done that. 🙂
Reply
 
 
 
 
 dee2 says:

 April 16, 2016 at 9:16 am
 
Is the article simply preaching evolution for evolution sake or is it addressing the WT’s stance against evolution?
I understand that this is an anti-JW/anti-Watchtower website with the objective of refuting, debunking, countering, exposing WT teachings/practices/issues. Isn’t evolution a WT issue? Is it that the only WT teachings/practices/issues that should be refuted by this site are the ones that do not pertain to the WT’s stance on evolution? Is it that the site must only deal with all other WT issues except the WT’s teaching on evolution?
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 April 16, 2016 at 9:27 am
 
Thank you dee. I think some people are happy for me to debunk false watchtower teachings only so long as these are not teachings they’re still clinging to. 😉
Reply
 
 Outandabout says:

 April 16, 2016 at 8:39 pm
 
You got it, Cedars!
Reply
 
 
 
 Minion says:

 April 16, 2016 at 11:33 am
 
Greetings to all:
D2,
One key word – “False teaching”, was not mention. When you go to court to defend yourself, you must prove your case. Without a shadow of a doubt. The expression ‘the Truth will set you free, not, ‘untrue or false teaching’.
It’s been said perhaps, our planet earth may have had 3 up to 5 phases (billions of years) of evolution. This makes sense with all the recent discoveries, human, animal & rock formations dated over 100,000+ some billion years ago.
Teaching evolution?
Teaching facts!
Peace out,
Reply
 
 
 Isaac J. Harris says:

 April 16, 2016 at 4:33 pm
 
“Is the article simply preaching evolution for evolution sake or is it addressing the WT’s stance against evolution?”
It seems clear to me that is simply addressing the WTS’s stance against evolution. Lloyd would have to go a lot further than this is he wanted to “preach evolution.” It systematically lists the Society’s points and simply refutes them. Many parts of evolution aren’t even mentioned.
So how is he “preaching evolution?”
Reply
 
 
 
 Gary says:

 April 16, 2016 at 9:52 am
 
Can’t say that I am educated enough to come to a thorough understanding of the process involved, however I do know that matter equals power and power equals matter. So, the Big Bang, as it’s called, which scientists agree happened could not in any sensible understanding arrive out of nowhere but I’m willing to be educated.
Reply
 
 Fnord Prefect says:

 April 16, 2016 at 10:11 am
 
Which is why Gary scientists don’t claim the (horribly named) Big bang arrived out of nowhere.
Reply
 
 Gary says:

 April 16, 2016 at 11:16 am
 
Ahh, do they offer an explanation?
Reply
 
 Isaac J. Harris says:

 April 16, 2016 at 4:40 pm
 
They do offer some, but you’re going to have to do your own research to uncover them. Google is your friend if you’re interested in doing that for yourself. 🙂 If nothing else, you might try looking into references about a book called “A Universe from Nothing.” Much of the book is really about the history of physics, so it may not be worth purchasing it. But you will find many discussions about it online. There are other articles and videos all over the place as well.
One big issue that seems to throw people that is worth mentioning here is this: The physical laws you are used to simply don’t apply during the creation of the universe. Especially since current thinking suggests that there is another kind of existence – they used to call it an “omniverse” but this term has fallen out of favor – in which the laws you are accustomed to simply don’t work. Cause and effect, time, all of these are qualities of this reality. If you can’t let go of these ideas, you will simply find yourself shaking your head at the current thinking in physics.
Reply
 
 
 
 
 
 Twmack says:

 April 16, 2016 at 10:34 am
 
I agree with the sites creator having the right to express
 his personal beliefs. No one is forced to agree with his
 views, which can not be said of the organisation that this
 site was set up to expose.
No comments expressed here are neutral, every one is
 weighted one way or the other. Fence sitting is a
 stagnant position, no conclusion or truth can be achieved
 by adopting it.
Reply
 
 
 dee2 says:

 April 16, 2016 at 10:35 am
 
Interestingly, when I was in high school, my Biology teacher who was a Catholic nun, stated that she believed that both creation and evolution are possible as both could have occurred at the same time or creation could have preceded evolution.
Reply
 
 
 H.K. Fauskanger says:

 April 16, 2016 at 10:37 am
 
Some commenters apparently reserve the righ to be both anti-JW and anti-science (for like it or not, evolution IS the seen as the process by which life unfolds by nearly all scientists working in the relevant fields). But for a site that presents general criticisms of Watchtower ideology, this topic must be as relevant as any other.
Criticism is very much deserved. Sometimes it has been grotesquely obvious that Watchtower writers trying to refute evolution have only the very dimmest understanding of the subject they are trying to argue against. Once they claimed that eyes could never evolve because eye-less organisms wouldn’t realize that they should want to see! Apparently the Watchtower version of evolution is some kind of deliberate self-improvement whereby an organism tries to squeeze out an eye because it somehow had a hunch that ‘sight’ would be possible and desirable.
Watchtower writers see ‘evolution’ not so much as a scientific theory as an elaborate atheistic attempt to explain away the existence of complex lifeforms without having to admit that the Creator exists. Hence they so often confuse ‘evolution’ with abiogenesis, the ultimate origin of life from non-living chemicals. Obviously there are, and maybe always will be, unanswered questions about the exact origin and shape of the very first, primitive molecular replicators. (It is pretty hard to explore what happened on a MOLECULAR level several BILLION years after the event.) But as pointed out by Cedars, ‘evolution’ proper does not deal with abiogenesis or the ultimate origins of life; that is a seperate field of scientific enquiry.
In Watchtower literature we have seen funny illustrations of tall buildings hovering in thin air (for instance, page 40 in 1985’s Life – How Did It Get Here? By Evolution or by Creation?) This is meant to illustrate how evolution has no proper ‘foundation’ because the question of abiogenesis has not been fully answered. In fact, evolutionary theory proper only deals with how life unfolded and developed once it was somehow here. So if one is somehow a happier person for assuming that the first cell was magically poofed into existence by Jehovah, Odin or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, this would in no way make ‘evolution’ proper collapse.
Like so many Watchtower writers, Kalaria is apparently content to point to this or that complex feature of biology and then declare that ‘evolution’ could never accomplish this. The underlying idea seems to be that if evolution could produce anything at all, it would only be exceedingly crude and simple systems. Why should that be so? Apparently simply because that is the gut feeling of creationists (including the Witnesses, though they don’t like to be called creationists).
Kalaria speaks of how computer programs supposedly can’t come into existence on their own. Actually evolutionary algorithms have been employed with considerable success. Striking ‘software robots’ with complex behaviors have been evolved simply by letting the program make random changes in their structure, then selecting the ones that somehow performed best and repeating the process through many generations.
One example is how ‘walkers’ were evolved simply by letting the program randomly string together cubes representing ‘muscle’, ‘bones’ etc. Some quite hillarious gaits evolved with NO human programmer intervening, just by letting the evolutionary algorithm fumble its way through the realm of possibility by making entirely random changes and then building on anything that worked ever so slightly better:



Reply
 
 Isaac J. Harris says:

 April 16, 2016 at 4:42 pm
 
Great comment. Thanks. 🙂
Reply
 
 
 Winston Smith says:

 April 17, 2016 at 6:10 am
 
Watchtower’s reasoning that evolution has no foundation because abiogenesis has not been fully understood is poor argumentation (something that is common in Watchtower writings). It could be considered “red herring” argumentation.
Much of science comes to us in pieces and we learn it a bit at a time. To discount the scientific evidence that does exist for evolution simply because not all the pieces are there is very shortsighted.
Isaac Newton discovered that Force equals mass times acceleration (F=ma). However, this formula does not hold true when we approach speeds near the speed of light. Scientists have since revised the formula to take into account the velocities in question. But did the fact that Newton lacked the full picture negate his work up to that point in time? Hardly. So similarly, arguing that evolution is somehow negated because we do not at this time have the full picture is foolish and shortsighted.
WS
Reply
 
 
 
 Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:

 April 16, 2016 at 11:17 am
 
Good article! I think the WTS needs to quote some strong points from this article as it does for other respected critical thinkers….
*** w09 10/1 p. 12 Is It Possible to Build Faith in a Creator? ***
 the German philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche famously proclaimed that God is dead, but he was afraid of the moral vacuum and the possible harm that might result from atheistic thinking. Were such fears justified?
 Author Keith Ward notes that as mankind entered the modern era, barbarism did not decrease but instead “reached heights never previously imaginable.” Nor have experiments with atheism freed mankind from the failings of human nature, such as corruption and intolerance. These facts have led many thinking people, even atheists, to recognize the moral value of belief in God.
For more from jw.org , consider this link: http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/l/r1/lp-e?q=w09+10%2F1+p.+12
Reply
 
 
 Charles Huff says:

 April 16, 2016 at 12:43 pm
 
I have my own personal belief in God, it doesn’t resemble the Yahweh character. I believe in evolution because it has finally been conclusively proven, our DNA is like a book, a recording of our genetic past. Our DNA proves our evolution conclusively, the argument about evolution is over.
There’s three kinds of people. People who will never discover the evidence our DNA gives of our evolution, those who will learn later, and people who already know now. The conclusive evidence our DNA provides will not concealed forever, it will come to light, and people will laugh at creationists just as they now mock those who believed in “spontaneous generation” in the 1600’s.
This cannot be denied, people will know one day and the evolution debt will end.
What will happen to those who believe in holy books is anyone’s guess. I’m sure some will always believe things, no matter how silly so religion will always exist in some form.
The JWs make the mistake of confusing the organization with god, they say all the time that to question the slave is questioning god. If they say something it’s from god.
People who believe holy books deny what god is saying to them if you ask me, they are men worshippers as much as ANY JW, because they place divine inspiration on books written by men.
Reply
 
 
 KAMIL LEVI PYKA says:

 April 16, 2016 at 1:19 pm
 
The Bible and ancient religious manuscripts does not explain exactly or correctly reveal how or what way our Earth was created similarly scientists did not accurately either.
There is so much evidence in space and in our physical world this must have Creator(God) who set up this all.
 That’s all I can say on this subject.Shabat Shalom.
Reply
 
 Cappytan says:

 April 16, 2016 at 7:28 pm
 
And who created that creator? After all, an extremely complex being that is powerful enough to create a universe had to come from somewhere. Did you even read the article? Did you even see that “God of the gaps” paragraph? That’s exactly the stance your taking, which was refuted.
Reply
 
 
 Outandabout says:

 April 16, 2016 at 9:05 pm
 
Kamil…..just because science doesn’t give us the full answer..yet!..it doesn’t naturally follow that we need to fill in the gaps with whatever takes our fancy. That’s not how it works. Can you imagine a group of scientists huddling around a bible when they encounter a problem. Religion is CONSTANTLY changing it’s views to fall more into line with scientific discoveries as they happen. They HAVE to. If they didn’t, they would simply become far too irrelevant and disappear. The WT has been doing just that all along. Imagine trying to get away with saying “it’s never been proven that germs cause disease” today, or even ” there’s no such thing as rabies”. There’s even a group in America who have squeezed the dinosaurs onto the Ark. DNA evidence is showing us our true origins, whether we like it or not.
Reply
 
 
 
 Frederick says:

 April 16, 2016 at 5:38 pm
 
Lloyd, this article is amazing. I really appreciate the time and effort you dedicate to your activism. You are waking people up on a daily basis while exposing the watchtower every step of the way.
Please let me know how I can further support your work.
Reply
 
 
 Jeff Canning says:

 April 16, 2016 at 6:21 pm
 
Now children stop argueing whether or not God exists we will never know. I doubt his/her existence so that but even so it needs to be brought out that the Watchtower has nought to do with any God and Lloyd does it in spades…
Reply
 
 Outandabout says:

 April 16, 2016 at 10:21 pm
 
Fair enough, Jeff, but you know what? If God appeared before me right now, the first thing I’d do is smack him fair in the chops. Bloody maniac! He could receive intense counselling by dozens of professionals 24/7 for 20yrs and his ego issue would still be at the fore. I’d rather die than spend eternity kissing that butt. If anybody wants to venture that I just don’t know Him…..wrong! The problem is…I do.
Reply
 
 Jeffreycanning says:

 April 17, 2016 at 12:45 am
 
E.haaah…
Reply
 
 
 
 
 Jeff Canning says:

 April 16, 2016 at 6:26 pm
 
Y’no I should really proof read my comments before posting them…
Reply
 
 
 Kieren says:

 April 16, 2016 at 7:25 pm
 
What a brilliant article Lloyd. Great work indeed. I particularly loved the way you clearly demonstrated the vast problem with the university’s response In the conclusion, calling it out for its misguided political correctness…not distancing itself from the professor has wide reaching ramifications which will ultimately not help them, their mission to scientifically educate, or society in general in the longer term. Very incisive and thought provoking article for some I should think!
Reply
 
 
 Robert67 says:

 April 16, 2016 at 9:49 pm
 
One Watchtower finding that always blew my mind was how black skinned humans were so easily explained as being descendants of Cain and having the same ‘mark of Cain’ inherited black skin.
Reply
 
 Minion says:

 April 18, 2016 at 10:13 pm
 
@R,
So this means your a racist?
You have been publicly reproved, and marked. In this blog. Lol,
Peace out,
Reply
 
 
 
 I KNOW NOTHING says:

 April 16, 2016 at 9:58 pm
 
Thank you for a well researched and rational article Lloyd.Thank god for science.
Reply
 
 
 Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:

 April 16, 2016 at 10:59 pm
 
Something interesting in JW’s Kingdom Halls and homes, Professors and Peasants around the world are taught the same way to finally believe in one manipulative tool: JEHOVAH.
For sure, the day Professor Kalaria was baptized. he had to answer to two questions about which WTS says:
“The first baptismal question asks the candidate if he has repented of his former life course and dedicated his life to Jehovah to do his will. This question emphasizes two vital steps that must be taken prior to baptism, namely repentance and dedication” (w06 4/1 p. 22 par. 5; http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/l/r1/lp-e?q=w06+4%2F1+p.+22+par.+5 )
“The second question asks the candidate, first of all, if he understands that his baptism serves to identify him as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. After undergoing immersion, he becomes an ordained minister who bears Jehovah’s name. This is both a great privilege and a serious responsibility. It also puts the one baptized in line for eternal salvation, provided he remains faithful to Jehovah (w06 4/1 p. 24 par. 11; http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/l/r1/lp-e?q=w06+4%2F1+p.+24+par.+11 )
Without this background information, you will never understand the purpose those so called scientists are serving. They are imprisoned the say way Peasants over here are imprisoned having answered to the same questions.
Reply
 
 Markie says:

 April 17, 2016 at 10:11 am
 
You are so enlightened, obviously not one of those “peasants”.
Reply
 
 
 
 keinlezard says:

 April 16, 2016 at 11:26 pm
 
Thank You lloyd 🙂
It’s allways a great pleasure to read you comments.
You show where the creationnist failed to explain .. the lack of knowledge about “Evolution Theory”.
but I would say one thing today WT and JW attack “Darwin Theory”, but “Darwin” is over 🙂 in fact with genetics and molecular genetic we must speak about “Synthetic Evolution Theory”.
Why WT and GB didn’t speak about this Theory ? Simply because if GB speak about it, they have 2 choice
– In one hand “genetic” is a Lie and they must assumes that all clue in Scientific area of Police are false then no DNA clue are true.
– In the other hand , they accept ( I dream 🙂 ) genetic is true, and here , they must accept that evolution is a fact
 through ERV-k by example, or that we are all mutant 🙂
Today GB give 2 “””scientifics””” that visibly didn’t know more than child about Evolution Theory. but the worst, is that University didn’t not explain really where these persons are wrong. In a certain point of view, it’s a shame for “freedom of conscious” and for the Science that these university pretend to give to future students.
Greetings
Reply
 
 
 Levi says:

 April 17, 2016 at 1:15 am
 
Many Christians believe in special creation. Creationists do not dismiss science or argue against it per se. They interpret the evidence differently. I have personally met half a dozen scientists who are Christians. These are not crackpots but outstanding men in their field who have practically contributed to scientific progress such as Dr Stuart Burgess. They are chemists, biologists and physicists. The “orthodox” scientific establishment can be a bullying tyrant and is a massive multi billion pound behemoth, when one considers the educational institutions, foundations and the media spin offs. Sure, these men do not spout off Watchtower propaganda but they do believe God created the universe and do not believe in macro evolution.
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 April 17, 2016 at 2:37 am
 
Levi, I’ll be frank, you don’t understand evolution. There is no mystical barrier where micro evolution ends and macro evolution begins, preventing successive genetic variations from eventuating in new species. If there is such a barrier, it behooves your creationist heroes like Burgess to prove its existence. By proving that it is impossible for one species to evolve into another, Burgess would be recognized with academic acclaim and a Nobel Prize. He will get neither because he cannot prove his claims, and neither can you. Evolution happens, and it is happening all around us. You may be in denial because of your cherished religious beliefs, but I would thank you to not try using this website to spread your ignorance. It is also hypocritical of you to denounce science as a “massive multi billion pound behemoth” when the very device you are using to make the comment is a product of science. If science is so bad, turn your back on it entirely. Don’t cherry pick the parts of it that work for you, but actively try to denounce the parts that conflict with your religious bias.
Reply
 
 Gs says:

 April 17, 2016 at 7:40 am
 
When did Darwin invent the computer or smartphone?
Science was invented by creationists.
Please explain how electricity and technology would work differently if life was created vs evolved.
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 April 17, 2016 at 7:45 am
 
Most early scientists HAD to be religious, because religion came first. Religion is our first and worst attempt at explaining the world around us. That in no way makes science religious. The principles of science and religion are polar opposite. Religion rests on dogma and tradition – science relies on free inquiry. It constantly challenges itself to be proven wrong and relishes in new discoveries that contradict previous understandings. Those who cherry pick science by partaking of its fruits where it benefits them while dismissing (and even evangelizing against) the bits that don’t align with their religious/emotional bias are acting hypocritically.
Reply
 
 Gs says:

 April 17, 2016 at 8:17 am
 
That’s your opinion.
Technology works the same whether life evolved or was created.
You stated that evolution has nothing to do with abiogenesis.
Palentology, a historical science, has nothing, to do with engineering.
I would argue that engineering or invention is actually rooted in a creative mindset.

 
 
 Cedars says:

 April 17, 2016 at 8:22 am
 
Evolution is not my opinion. It is proven science whether I accept it or not. The fact that you don’t know this is not my problem.
My point about technology, which you seem similarly determined to overlook, is that it is dependent on our advances in scientific knowledge, advances that also help us to understand that life evolves.
And I didn’t say abiogenesis has “nothing to do” with abiogenesis. If I did, I mis-spoke. There is a definite connection between the two, but whereas one is a hypothesis (abiogenesis) the other (evolution) is accepted and observable science. You cannot disprove evolution by attacking abiogenesis, but that doesn’t stop wave after wave of creationists from trying.

 
 
 
 Minion says:

 April 18, 2016 at 10:24 pm
 
@G,
Amish.
Study the Amish culture, they are the true survivors in our time.
They use no modern appliances, however, there meats are kept cool, and meats are cooked well done, no pink.
They use no modern medicines, but they cure all illnesses, buy use of natural herbs and for the UK, ‘join me for hot tea why don’t ya’.
Your answer is Amish. The real deal.
Peace out,
Reply
 
 
 
 Gs says:

 April 17, 2016 at 9:09 am
 
I didn’t mean to imply evolution was your opinion.
Natural selection is testable. However a virus is still a virus.
My point is science is not one field of study, there are different branches.
Smartphones have nothing to do with palentology.
Natural selection does not disprove a creator, but that doesn’t stop atheists from trying.
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 April 17, 2016 at 9:15 am
 
“Natural selection is testable. However a virus is still a virus.”
I have no idea what that means. If it’s an attempt to separate micro from macro evolution, see what the web has to say about that particular piece of creationist trickery.
“My point is science is not one field of study, there are different branches.”
Nobody is disputing that.
“Smartphones have nothing to do with palentology.”
I have no idea what that means. And it’s “paleontology.”
“Natural selection does not disprove a creator, but that doesn’t stop atheists from trying.”
Nowhere in my article did I say that natural selection disproves a creator. Quite the opposite: I cited an example of a prominent Christian scientist who believes in natural selection and God.
Reply
 
 gs says:

 April 17, 2016 at 2:46 pm
 
“If science is so bad, turn your back on it entirely. Don’t cherry pick the parts of it that work for you, but actively try to denounce the parts that conflict with your religious bias.”
With that statement you are attempting to lump all of the sciences together, and then you accuse those that disagree with evolutionary theory as “cherry picking”.
Paleontology (is that better?) has zero to do with computer technology. Your all or nothing stand is a stretch.
“I have no idea what that means. If it’s an attempt to separate micro from macro evolution see what the web has to say about that particular piece of creationist trickery.”
Natural selection is testable. Viruses are used as evidence for evolution. How is it trickery to say that viruses stay viruses after natural selection occurs?

 
 
 Cedars says:

 April 17, 2016 at 10:50 pm
 
gs, whoever you are, you really are determined to warp your own and other people’s arguments, aren’t you!
“With that statement you are attempting to lump all of the sciences together, and then you accuse those that disagree with evolutionary theory as ‘cherry picking’.”
Creationists lump evolution with abiogenesis with the intent of disproving one or both. I am not “lumping” all sciences together with the intent of disproving science. I am saying that it is hypocritical of you and others to cherry pick which parts of science you support, deny, or derive use from based purely on what does or does not agree with your religious/emotional bias.
“Paleontology (is that better?) has zero to do with computer technology. Your all or nothing stand is a stretch.”
Computer technology has not developed independent of scientific progress, but as a result of it. Paleontology also relies to a large extent on applying the scientific method to expand our understanding of the world around us.
“Natural selection is testable. Viruses are used as evidence for evolution. How is it trickery to say that viruses stay viruses after natural selection occurs?”
It is extremely disingenuous of creationist apologists like yourself to accept that things like viruses can evolve, but that there is some mystical boundary preventing small incremental changes from eventuating in new species altogether given sufficient time. This “trickery” is routinely debunked by scientists. You would do well to research the fact that micro and macro evolution are one and the same rather than foisting your lack of knowledge on us.
With all that said, I’ve grown tired of untangling your attempts to use this website as a vehicle for your ignorance, so I’m temporarily suspending you from commenting. If you ever feel like NOT spewing anti-science propaganda, please email us and we will see about reversing the block.

 
 
 
 
 
 
 Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:

 April 17, 2016 at 2:41 am
 
The God’s Organization is attacking the world once again:
(Genesis 11:5-7) . . .Then Jehovah went down to see the city and the tower that the sons of men had built. 6 Jehovah then said: “Look! They are one people with one language, and this is what they have started to do. Now there is nothing that they may have in mind to do that will be impossible for them. 7 Come! Let us go down there and confuse their language in order that they may not understand one another’s language.”
Reply
 
 
 rahab says:

 April 17, 2016 at 3:09 am
 
cappytan says;this is not a forum bt a blog and the rules apply to comment section.and to pray for the blogger to stop being atheist.well,i have always visited this blog on th premise that it seeks to debunk what the wt purports to teach as bible truth while its not.jws are ppl who have hav been misled by th gb about what th bible teaches as truth.i understood th blog to giv x-jws a voice where th gb denied them.it is on tht basis I visit this blog ie expose wt lies and reveal bible truths,and that’s what led me to disassociate frm the bogus org.if you have found it necessary to expose the bible itself as a fraud,then start addressing the whole xtian faith bt don’t hinge it on wt.agreed,th blog is for you to write what you want and we only make comments based on what you say you stand for.other than that I appreciate th work yu do n this blog was instrumental in my leaving th ‘truth’.
Reply
 
 Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:

 April 17, 2016 at 4:07 am
 
@rahab, “addressing the whole xtian faith” is Jehovah’s Witnesses job. We can’t fight in the same battle field…
*** w92 11/15 p. 7 The Cross—Symbol of Christianity? ***
 The Bible shows that Jesus was not executed on a conventional cross at all but, rather, on a simple stake, or stau·rosʹ. This Greek word, appearing at Matthew 27:40, basically means a simple upright beam or pole, such as those used in building foundations. Hence, the cross never represented true Christianity.
Reply
 
 
 Cappytan says:

 April 17, 2016 at 11:13 am
 
This blog exposes the falsehoods in JW beliefs. Now, how is it Lloyd’s fault that one of the JW beliefs he exposes as false (creationism) is also one that you still hold? Shouldn’t ALL JW beliefs be subjected to the same scrutiny?
Reply
 
 
 
 scott says:

 April 17, 2016 at 3:10 am
 
dear loyd
 i have always loved and respected your posts. but at this point you are pushing persons to adopting atheism. something you preach against on this site
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 April 17, 2016 at 3:11 am
 
Are you able to explain why I am pushing people to atheism while giving an example of a respected Christian scientist who also embraces the reality of evolution?
Reply
 
 
 
 JB says:

 April 17, 2016 at 5:07 am
 
Regarding the mechanics of the Evolution, there are several varying points of view. I tried looking into this as much as I could find time for, and I’m still going on. I also asked around, from people who have a deeper understanding. Natural selection seems to be only ONE possible way to explain what we have today as complexity. I think there are so many other influences, like dominance of an alelle, random drift, mutation rate, epigenetics, molecular evolution are all different mechanisms and it seems a lot depends on the size of the populations and other changes that may occur in time. I’m not sure if everything we see is the result of the natural selection only.
There are a lot of comments I came across about abiogenesis too. Some people say, to have a single protein you have a precise order of 1000+ amino acids (unless I got it wrong). If you have 20 amino acids, a precise order of 1000 would make a phenomenal chance. Of course, you’ll hear such comments from ID defenders, but it’s true that the simplest living thing is extremely complex.
At this point, I think the whole question about Evolution and Abiogenesis are still an open subjects and more surprises are to come.
People often talk about a Boeing 747 being assembled in a junkyard. To me, more I delve into the science more it looks like that it’s not a Boeing 747 that is assembled, but a house of cards, which don’t fall apart … And it’s not the real mystery to me – the real mystery is the junkyard itself.
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 April 17, 2016 at 6:11 am
 
Scientists are still exploring the exact mechanics of how evolution works, but the fact that evolution is real is beyond doubt, and certainly not an “open subject.” Pointing to disagreement between biologists on the mechanics of evolution as an argument against it is like pointing to disagreement between physicists on the mechanics of gravity as an argument against gravity. Abiogenesis, as I explain in the article, is something different.
Reply
 
 Gs says:

 April 17, 2016 at 8:01 am
 
Cedars,
Arguing mechanics of gravity doesn’t disprove gravity.
Arguing evolution (the mechanics) or creation (the mechanics) does not disprove, life. We all agree life exists.
As to physicists.
They believe that roughly 95% of the universe is made up of dark matter and dark energy. Names are attached to these substances, but physicists do not know what these things are, but they believe they exist.
They also believe the whole universe came into existence in less than a nanosecond.
Physicists also believe in a multiverse, which cannot be tested, to explain why our universe supports life.
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 April 17, 2016 at 8:06 am
 
Wow, you really are in an evangelical fervor when it comes to pushing your ignorance on us, aren’t you?
Actually the multiverse is just one theory being explored by physicists. It is by no means proven science in the same way as evolution.
And what I said about gravity is apt. Gravity is the force by which objects with a greater mass attract objects with a smaller mass. The precise mechanisms by which this works at a sub-atomic level are still being explored and investigated, but the theory of gravity is not questioned. By the same token, the precise mechanisms of natural selection are still being investigated, but that does not mean that there are any doubts over evolution. It might be helpful if you go and do some research on what “theory” means in a scientific context, and spare us from having to untangle any more of your misconceptions and false arguments.
Reply
 
 Gs says:

 April 17, 2016 at 9:31 am
 
I thought proofs only exist in mathematics and logic.
I was under the impression that evolution had evidence.
What’s interesting is science only allows for natural explanations for, everything.
Supernatural explanations are never allowed.

 
 
 Cedars says:

 April 17, 2016 at 9:35 am
 
“I thought proofs only exist in mathematics and logic.”
Based on what you’ve already written, forgive me if I struggle to credit you as any authority on logic.
“I was under the impression that evolution had evidence.”
Then you were under the correct impression.
“Supernatural explanations are never allowed.”
Correct.

 
 
 Winston Smith says:

 April 18, 2016 at 5:55 pm
 
This line of discussion reminds me of this cartoon:http://star.psy.ohio-state.edu/coglab/Pictures/miracle.gif
A case in point is that no one alive today, or for that matter for many centuries, has ever seen an honest to goodness miracle occur. But we have seen natural phenomena occur. So yes, science does look for a natural cause, which can be tested based on the facts available. If we open up scientific research to miracles that cannot be tested, then no accurate conclusions can be made. All we have is wild speculation and conjecture.
WS

 
 
 
 
 JB says:

 April 17, 2016 at 12:01 pm
 
I think any scientific subject that doesn’t have all aspects fully clarified is an open subject.
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 April 17, 2016 at 12:25 pm
 
Certain aspects of the precise mechanisms of how evolution works are indeed an open subject, but the fact that living things evolve is not. If you don’t believe me, Google it.
Reply
 
 
 
 
 
 Winston Smith says:

 April 17, 2016 at 6:24 am
 
I always found it interesting that the Watchtower is so hell-bent against evolution, yet they argue that only a handful of species were on Noah’s Ark and somehow developed into the plethora of species that we find on earth today. For this to occur in a short 4,000 year period gives the theory of punctuated equilibrium a real run for its money.
WS
Reply
 
 Minion says:

 April 18, 2016 at 6:39 pm
 
Greetings to all:
@WS, @RG, @b a b y,
Interesting comments. My question would be, if only the Bible were true? Then All the accounts, time-lines, could be proven as factual, however, it can not.
You mention the man Noah, how many animals did he take into the ark? The answer – only a few, say 1,000 we all agree?
Today, 4,000 years later we have, get ready for this figure:
 Believe it or not, there are about 950,000 species of insects. No one knows for sure how many species of animals exist on Earth. In fact, some 10,000 species of animals are discovered each year, with over one and a half million species already described. Reference from Wikipedia.
Another question, where did they come from.? god stop creation over 6,000 years ago.
 We know the answer – Evolution.
JWSurvey is not teaching Evolution, only the facts.
If god stop creation over 6,000 years ago and deleted his fancy creation known as animals. And the man known as Noah gathered just a few hundred animals, where in hell did all these thousand and thousands new species discovered each year come from?
It’s true or its not!
Peace out,
Reply
 
 Winston Smith says:

 April 18, 2016 at 8:09 pm
 
Good points Minion. Another area to consider is how did we get species that are only found on certain islands and continents? I mean, platypuses and kangaroos are only naturally found in Austrailia, but they would have had to have been on the Ark, right? How did it occur that they only live in Australia? Did they swim there from Mount Arat in the Middle East?
Another area is the different breeds of dogs. According to JW dogma (no pun intended), all these different breeds are descended apparently from one pair on the Ark. Now, today there are dozens of breeds and sub-breeds. Some can no longer mate. A Great Dane and a Chihuahua cannot physically breed. How many more generations until they cannot genetically breed? At that point are they a new species? Is that evolution occurring before our very eyes?
WS
Reply
 
 
 
 
 Randy Galbraith says:

 April 17, 2016 at 8:09 am
 
Interesting comments back and for here. Both religion and science live in the same world but in many cases take a different approach to understanding the world around us.
The religious view of Jehovah’s Witnesses in regards to origin-of questions is absolute and authoritarian. Jehovah God created Adam and Eve in 4026 BCE and flooded the entire earth in 2370 BCE drowning all air-breathing life, save for those inside the Ark. This truth is revealed in Genesis and is beyond any questioning, because it is God’s word. Any speculation here will be minor, such as how much did Noah know of lives of Adam and Eve.
Thus believing Witnesses will speak of “truth” and “lies.” They’ll generally be impressed by arguments from authority. A “scientist” who agrees with the Witness view is comforting not so much in what they say, but because their label gives them authority. Views contrary to the Witness narrative are attacked on this basis. The believing Witness challenges the scientific minded critic to produce “truth” as they know it. Alas that is not possible, because that is not how science works.
Science seeks to understand a holistic, logical and consistent view of the world. But is never able to produce a final epiphany of absolute truth. Gaps in knowledge will forever exist and all knowledge gained will forever be tentative. Is Evolution a fact? No. It is much more than that, actually! A “fact” is just a data point, like say the cranial capacity Neanderthals (1500-1800 cm^3 as per Wikipedia). A scientific “theory” is much more, it brings together a group of related facts to explain some aspect of nature and from this make predictions. In the case of Evolution it is a theory that seeks to explain the origin of species. It postulates a common ancestor and points to closely related species such as a Horse and Donkey that can even still mate to produce a Mule.
Scientific theories are constrained to the body of facts they deal with. The theory of evolution for example is silent on how stars or planets are formed. And, as has been pointed out many times, it is silent on origin of life and of course makes no predictions on the existence of God. Once a theory has been created science seeks to kill it. Reading Darwin’s Origin of Species you’ll soon see that is exactly what he did, in as many different ways as he could think of he set out to find reasons why his theory couldn’t work. Often doing meticulous experiments and data gathering to see what could be found.
The way to kill a theory is to find a body of facts within the domain of theory that can’t be explained. Or create and run an experiment that produces an outcome the theory predicted should not happen. It is for reasons like this we now accept Einstein’s theory of gravity as a deeper understanding of nature than Newton’s.
Merely pointing to gaps or lack of complete evidence is not a valid approach. All scientific theories have gaps and is in fact the areas that are researched. Asking the theory to explain things beyond its domain then noting the silence is not valid either. To say “Lucy” (Australopithecus afarenis) tells us nothing about human evolution because we cannot know if she produced offspring is nonsense! The theory of evolution has never made such claims — either that it can tell us which individual fossils produced offspring or that such an event would be crucial to the theory.
As mentioned believable scientific theories are holistic, logical and consistent. In contrast you’ll notice in regards to criticism of theory of evolution produced by the Witnesses it is merely enough to raise objections. Those objections need not be consistent. Thus, you’ll notice folks, including the Witnesses, quoting the microbiologist Michael Behe, without mentioning that he accepts Darwinian evolution. He merely postulates irreducible complexity means initial forms of biological systems must have been intelligently designed. That humans and apes share a common ancestor — he believes.
If one is searching for absolute truth a certainty about purpose, history and moral right and wrong — the scientific approach may initially frustrate you. A religious faith is much more capable of producing a comfortable narrative about how it all happened and what it all means.
But for some of us, who are now atheists, we have found an ability to be comfortable with the fog. We appreciate the wonder and beauty of the natural world even while knowing their is still much to be learned. Yet for some of us, we still long to connect to the religious experience. This is true in my case, but for others, I can see why they are happy to leave Jehovah’s Witnesses and live a completely secular life.
Cheers,
 -Randy
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 April 17, 2016 at 8:22 am
 
Great observations Randy, thank you!
Reply
 
 
 Cherie says:

 April 17, 2016 at 4:13 pm
 
Nice comment. It is completely logical, and your last sentence says it all. That’s exactly how I feel.
Reply
 
 
 Holy Connoli says:

 April 18, 2016 at 12:57 pm
 
Randy. One thing for sure there is PLENTY of Fog in Jehovah’s witnesses even if you are a full fledged JW.
Reply
 
 
 
 Velvia Blue says:

 April 17, 2016 at 11:14 am
 
Both the theory of evolution and belief in creation use inductive arguments rather than deductive. Both interpretations of how life appeared, adapted, survived and/or mutated fall into 2 logical fallacies;
 1, A ‘false dichotomy’, there could be a 3rd explanation.
 2, A ‘Texas sharp shooter’. both camps paint a bulls eye around their observations and shout ‘I’m right’
However watchtower has been found dishonest in quoting scientists on many occasions. Great essay Lloyd as always.
Reply
 
 
 Twmack says:

 April 17, 2016 at 11:54 am
 
I am a reluctant atheist, I would love to believe in a benevolent
 God who has a personal interest in my welfare. Someone to
 turn to in times of distress and who has planned for me a happy
 future beyond this life.
Alas, reason based on observable facts rule this out.- Millions
 born dead or malformed, people destroyed by tsunamis,
 earthquakes. Why would such a God listen to my prayers when
 people in the holocaust cried out for his help, but were still herded
 into the gas chambers. No deliverance from the fiery furnace there.
I’m not great on science, but one thing that is indisputable is
 Natural Selection, therefore, rather than a Divinity it seems it is the
 Environment that shapes our ends.
Reply
 
 
 Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:

 April 17, 2016 at 12:24 pm
 
WTS is desperately fighting sciences as it is going to collapse as science evolves. A company built on selling sins and fear of death has no choice: Fighting science is a must for its survival….
*** w02 6/1 p. 9 Who Is to Blame—You or Your Genes? ***
 SCIENTISTS are hard at work to try to find genetic causes for alcoholism, homosexuality, promiscuity, violence, other aberrant behavior, and even for death itself. Would it not be a relief to find that we are not responsible for our actions but are merely victims of biology? It is human nature to blame someone or something else for our errors.
 If the genes are to blame, scientists hold out the possibility of changing them, eliminating undesirable traits through genetic engineering. The recent success in mapping the entire human genome has given such aspirations new impetus.
 This scenario, however, is based on the premise that our genetic endowment is, indeed, the villain responsible for all our sins and errors. Have the scientific detectives found enough evidence to make a case against our genes? Obviously, the answer will profoundly affect how we see ourselves and our future. Before examining the evidence, though, a look at mankind’s origin will prove enlightening.
Reply
 
 
 breakfast of champions says:

 April 17, 2016 at 12:40 pm
 
It was quite dismaying to see the rather lukewarm response from Newcastle U.
Contrast this with Lehigh University’s (Pennsylvania, USA) disclaimer regarding Michael Behe:
http://www.lehigh.edu/~inbios/News/evolution.html
Reply
 
 Cherie says:

 April 17, 2016 at 4:10 pm
 
It was a typical canned public relations response. However, the university should look into it further if it has any academic integrity.
Reply
 
 
 
 Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:

 April 17, 2016 at 10:34 pm
 
Is Yaroslav Dovhanych a Russian zoologist? Is he a pure Russian? I am sorry to hear that as WTS wrote…
*** w64 2/15 p. 104 par. 1 Of Which God Are You a Witness? ***
 ANY God that is a real God ought to show proof that he is a God. He ought to have at least two or three witnesses that he is a God, or even the only God that there is. The atheist today recoils at the very suggestion that there is a god and proudly exclaims: “I am the witness of no god!” An Associated Press dispatch dated Seattle, May 6 of last year, reported: “Major Gherman S. Titov, the Soviet astronaut, proclaimed his disbelief in God today. He said he saw ‘no God or angels’ during his seventeen orbits of the earth. ‘Up to our first orbital flight by Yuri Gagarin no God helped build our rocket,’ he said. ‘The rocket was made by our people. I don’t believe in God. I believe in man, his strength, his possibilities and his reason.’ Major Titov expounded on his materialistic faith after he and his wife had spent nearly two hours touring the United States science exhibit at the Seattle World’s Fair.”—N.Y. Times, May 7, 1962.
It is sad things have changed…
Reply
 
 
 Doc Obvious says:

 April 18, 2016 at 8:11 am
 
Science and Religion have been at each others throats for centuries. Many scientists have been crucified and put to death by religious leaders for telling the truth about certain scientific explorations. Remember the Pope centuries ago believed the earth to be flat. Only until scientists figured that the earth was round.
Reply
 
 
 BABY says:

 April 18, 2016 at 8:24 am
 
You make us laugh (cesar and his band). Sometimes you say you are with God and against JW, but here you prove that you are in fact, against God, that you do not believe in him as creator. you insult God by saying that he did not create but that the heavens and the earth arrived by evolution, not by Creation.
 Why are you using the bible if you don’t beleve in him?
 you are fighting agains God.
Reply
 
 M Saurus says:

 April 18, 2016 at 8:57 am
 
Baby, aren’t you disfellowshipped yet? I mean, really, you read and comment on an apostate site. Don’t spout off your religiousness here – just the fact that you are here shows what a hypocrite you are.
Reply
 
 
 Minion says:

 April 18, 2016 at 7:20 pm
 
@ B a b y,
Explain and prove all facets in detail and I will gladly return to the Kingdom Hall.
My question would be, if only the Bible were true? Then All the accounts, time-lines, could be proven as factual, however, it can not.
how many animals did Noah take into the ark? The answer – only a few, say 1,000 we agree?
Today, 4,000 years later we have, get ready for this figure:
Believe it or not, there are about 950,000 species of insects. No one knows for sure how many species of animals exist on Earth. In fact, some 10,000 species of animals are discovered each year, with over one and a half million species already described. Reference from Wikipedia.
Another question, where did they come from.? god stop creation over 6,000 years ago. According to the bed side story book – the bible.
 We know the answer – Evolution.
JWSurvey is not teaching Evolution, only the facts.
If god stop creation over 6,000 years ago and deleted his fancy creation known as animals. And the man known as Noah gathered just a few hundred animals, where in hell did all these thousand and thousands new species discovered each year come from?
It’s true or its not!
Peace out
Reply
 
 
 
 Kathryn says:

 April 18, 2016 at 8:44 am
 
As I read the comments I am learning something important about myself. My mind is still indoctrinated. I realize I have an emotional negative reaction towards some topics. I have an emotional reaction regarding abortion, evolution and blood transfusions. Personally I feel abortion is murder but I won’t force my view on anyone else. I was against blood transfusions until my husband needed them. He has an ulcer and he had lost so much blood that when they pulled his lower eye lid down there was no redness only white. He filled out paper work explaining the risks of blood transfusions. The blood was screened for diseases. The paper work explained he would feel week for a month while white cells died and were replaced by his own cells. Even though he felt weak he was up walking around. He felt full of life and he no longer felt like gravity was pulling him into the ground. It was a good experience. I’m happy about it. Now I’m having an emotional reaction towards evolution. My mind is feeling insulted. I think that is amazing and creepy. I am learning my life long indoctrination stops my mind. Causes me to mentally walk away from what I want to reject without thought. That’s from indoctrination. That’s interesting. So I don’t care about evolution. I don’t even want to hear the facts about it. At least I realize what I’m doing. It makes me laugh at myself. That’s what indoctrination does. It closes minds. Interesting.
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 April 18, 2016 at 9:30 am
 
Thank you for this fascinating comment Kathryn. It’s rare you find someone with the honesty to admit that they are being closed-minded on something. I agree it’s understandable after what many of us have been through.
Reply
 
 
 
 Searcher says:

 April 18, 2016 at 9:25 am
 
I liked the closing comments of the article, that the Watchtower Society may not survive in an ‘Information Age’, but thrived in an ‘Ignorance Age’. This is evolution taking place in and of itself! It’s not that hard to understand that species and organizations will ‘evolve’ with the external pressures of their surroundings or cease to exist. Looks like Watchtower will need to ‘evolve’ quite a bit more to survive the pressure with the onslaught of information that this and many other sights are bringing to bear on it.
As I have said before, the reason the Watchtower organization hates higher education is because education and information is its worst enemy. Yep. We’re seeing an evolution take place right in front of us. They keep people inside ignorant, afraid, isolated, and mentally beaten more and more to fend off the ‘attack’ from the surrounding world itself. Ignorance and isolation cannot continue in this day of high information exchange. They demonstrate this with their latest ‘defense mutation’ JW.org. The Watchtower has a date with extinction if it doesn’t fundamentally change and soon. The Watchtower may have to downsize drastically into something like the Scientology cult to isolate itself, because the Watchtower leadership can’t keep up their crazy ruse much longer.
Well, that’s my ‘evolved’ thought after almost three years removed from a very evil and controlling organization.
Reply
 
 Big B says:

 April 18, 2016 at 4:46 pm
 
Searcher;
I agree with you absolutely. With all the multi-million dollar lawsuits staring them in the face the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, Inc. will move all of their monies and properties over to JW.org.
This will be done to confound any other law suits remaining as they will not be able to attach the assets of the defunct WBTS as it will certainly “evolve” into JW.org.
However, this seven-headed, lumbering, dumb, dinosaur will continue to face extinction if, after its metamorphosis into JW.org, continues with its same ignorant stances on pedophilia (two witness rule), higher education, and flawed end time chronology.
As always a very informative article Lloyd which causes all of us to exercise the greatest muscle of all, our brain.
Reply
 
 
 
 MARS says:

 April 18, 2016 at 9:58 am
 
I know that ” proof positive is not always proof” – we dont have to look for proof of either evolution or creation . What is interesting on the astronomical level is that we have for the fist time proof of the existence of other planets around other stars , it challenges the idea that Earth is the only place where life exists — it basically shoots human notions of theology in the foot – that the biblical god was only limited to earth. My other rational is if god a god exists he could have put other life on other planets — yet Mars and Venus are lifeless worlds , so the more life in other planets would double for an existing creator. But we have to subtract how many lifeless worlds like the fermi paradox are their , as such may point to the rarity of life , proof a biological evolution.
Reply
 
 dee2 says:

 April 18, 2016 at 11:02 am
 
Fermi’s Paradox states that if extraterrestrial civilizations are common in our galaxy, then we should have been visited, colonized, or at least heard from them by now.
 Your answer to Fermi’s paradox is that the rarity of life in the rest of the universe points to proof of biological evolution.
There are other interesting answers to Fermi’s paradox: The author of the article athttp://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/01/lucky_us_turnin093011.html
makes the point that one answer to Fermi’s paradox is that we are alone because whoever created the universe decided that the Earth should be the only habitable planet with all the proper protection and environmental benefits it needed to become the home of humankind and so there is a supernatural reason we are here.
Even if this may be the case, it still doesn’t rule out the possibility of biological evolution as you have stated.
Reply
 
 dee2 says:

 April 18, 2016 at 11:23 am
 
As someone else stated:
The odds of everything being right for life here on earth are indeed astronomical but so is winning the lottery. The English lottery is 45,000,000 to 1. But someone does eventually win it.
There are billions of star systems with planets in the universe, and while most of them don’t have the right combination,
 it looks like we have won the jackpot.
Reply
 
 
 Winston Smith says:

 April 18, 2016 at 11:52 am
 
If there are beings capable of interstellar travel, then it may be that they are evolved enough on a moral level that they have some sort of prime directive not to interfere with the development of life on a planet as primitive (by their standards) as ours. I realize I am straying into the realm of Star Trek here.
WS
Reply
 
 M Saurus says:

 April 18, 2016 at 12:16 pm
 
WS – unless their desire is “To Serve Man”……Twighlight Zone realm. 🙂
Reply
 
 Minion says:

 April 18, 2016 at 7:10 pm
 
@MS, @WS
Or how about, the movie “soylent green” with the leading actor the man known as “Moses”. The movie filmed on location at Warwick, NY.
Peace out,

 
 
 
 dee2 says:

 April 18, 2016 at 12:23 pm
 
It seems there are many possible answers to Fermi’s Paradox……..how courteous, obliging, thoughtful and noble of those extraterrestrials not to interfere with us………hopefully we won’t get any unwelcome visitors from an older more advanced civilisation, whose sun is on its last leg, and who have their eyes on our blue, green, lush planet as their next home.
Reply
 
 Outandabout says:

 April 18, 2016 at 12:58 pm
 
The chances of other civilisations being out there are huge but unfortunately they will be bound by the same laws of physics as we are. Time and distance is the problem.

 
 
 Searcher says:

 April 19, 2016 at 6:52 am
 
Outandabout;
You are correct. The laws of physics work far across our universe. The other civilizations may be hampered by the fact that they don’t have a ‘warp drive’ to carry them faster than the speed of light. That is the limit, making contact even rarer.

 
 
 
 
 
 
 Twmack says:

 April 18, 2016 at 4:16 pm
 
Just extending the analogy of the 45,000,000 to 1
 chance of winning the lottery, in relation to the odds
 of conditions on earth being right for life.
Recently the English lotto went 13 weeks before someone
 came up with the right combination, and don’t forget
 many people buy multiple tickets. So although the odds
 of winning are the same each week, many more combinations
 (Or can we say Experiments) will have been tried than the
 figure of 45,000,000. But eventually Bingo!
Thanks for being patient, here’s my point. Nature, the
 environment, or whatever you like to call it has had not just
 a few weeks, but around 5, billion years to experiment
 with its molecules, chemicals, proteins or whatever.
during that time it would have had many losing tickets
 but also plenty of time to hit some jackpots combining
 it’s winnings into what’s in evidence today. ( A bit
 simplistic and amateurish on the science aspect I know,
 but I was 25 years a J W, lol.)
Reply
 
 Minion says:

 April 18, 2016 at 6:05 pm
 
Greetings to all:
@D, @W,
Injecting a thought on ,”how to win the English American lottery – you play the same numbers each week – until the mathmatical systems chooses your numbers ” an explanation given by a four-time grand prize winner from Florida.
Ironically, I have started to use this technique and have noticed more of my numbers matched. Getting closer to the big pay out. Stay tune folks.
Peace out,
Reply
 
 
 

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← The Friday Column: The Annual Jehovah’s Witness Convention: a Pseudo-utopia
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Science-denial to be a regular feature of Watchtower’s monthly JW Broadcasting episodes
avatar 
Posted on April 16, 2016

Yaroslav XXX and Professor Raj Kalaria endorse Watchtower's anti-evolution stance
Yaroslav Dovhanych and Professor Raj Kalaria endorse Watchtower’s anti-evolution stance

Watchtower has a long and ignominious history with its forays into the realm of science.
Charles Taze Russell’s 1914 film The Photo-Drama of Creation advised cinema audiences that Earth was assembled in 49,000 years, that Noah’s Flood was caused by a Saturn-like orbital ring of water collapsing, and that getting rid of bacteria would be a good thing.
Russell’s ugly legacy of pseudo-science was continued by his successor Rutherford, who used the organization’s publications to spread his own brand of quackery.
The January 16, 1924 edition of the Golden Age proclaimed that: “It has never been proven that a single disease is due to germs.” And in his 1928 book Reconciliation, Rutherford denounced human evolution as an “insult to Jehovah,” instructing his followers: “it becomes the duty of the Christian to refuse to consider the man-made evidence offered by so-called scientists.”
Watchtower has continued to embrace this head-in-the-sand, backwards approach to science ever since. And the latest JW Broadcasting episode, hosted by Governing Body helper William Malenfant, indicates an escalation by the organization in its war against evolution, which it recently dismissed as a “doctrine” and a “false teaching.”

“One widespread false teaching that blinds people to the truth about God is the doctrine of evolution.” (Watchtower study edition, Oct 15, 2013, pp. 7-11)
The April 2016 broadcast sees Malenfant introducing a new feature in which scientists who happen to be Jehovah’s Witnesses are interviewed about their views on evolution. First up is Yaroslav Dovhanych, a Russian zoologist, followed by Professor Raj Kalaria, a brain researcher at Newcastle University in England.
Predictably, in their attempts to refute evolution, both Dovhanych and Kalaria demonstrate that their grasp on evolutionary theory is tenuous at best.


DNA: proof of creationism?
“The evolutionary theory, in my opinion, quite reasonably argued that there is no creator,” says Dovhanych, describing his pre-creationist experience. “[It argues] that everything was shaped by a series of random changes and combinations.”
Firstly, we can be grateful that not everyone who believes in God also dismisses evolution. A number of prominent scientists, including Francis Collins (Director of the National Institutes of Health in America), are able to reconcile both.
Secondly, natural selection is far from a random process. When successive generations of an organism are shaped by their surroundings, and an environment selects which attributes are best suited to reproduction and survival, what we have is cause and effect. Evolution is a guided process, even if natural forces rather than a supreme celestial supervisor are doing the guiding.
Dovhanych enjoys a moment of contemplation
Dovhanych enjoys a moment of contemplation
 
“When I studied nature through this lens [of the evolution theory],” Dovhanych continues, “I began to notice things that contradicted the theory of evolution. I found things that couldn’t have been formed by natural selection.”
Conveniently, none of these “things” are cited for our edification. However, Dovhanych at least teases an example that suggests his “contradictions” may not have stood up to much scrutiny.
“As I started to wonder about this, whether there is a creator, I began to discover more facts contradicting the theory of evolution,” he muses. “Can anyone say that some computer programs appeared simply by chance? In contrast, evolutionists would like us to believe that DNA was formed by evolution. To illustrate, say you take some letter blocks, pour them on to the table, and the Encyclopaedia Britannica is formed. There is an even smaller probability that DNA originated by evolution.”
Creationists like Ray Comfort (left) and Ken Ham (right) are renowned for trying to blur the lines between chemical and biological evolution
Creationists like Ray Comfort (left) and Ken Ham (right) are renowned for trying to blur the lines between chemical and biological evolution

Dovhanych thus resorts to the age-old trick, repeatedly used by the likes of Ken Ham and Ray Comfort, of trying to lump biological evolution together with chemical evolution, or abiogenesis. He is hoping that nobody will consider the gaping difference between the two, namely that living organisms are imbued with key components for natural selection, i.e. reproduction and scope for genetic variation.
Chemicals do not normally have the same potential; thus the idea of complex self-replicating chemical structures like DNA arising spontaneously is much harder to comprehend, even if it is not theoretically impossible. Thus, to discredit the proven science of biological evolution, Dovhanych bypasses it altogether by invoking the implausibility of DNA originating through natural forces.
Though abiogenesis is not established science in the same way as biological evolution, its seeming implausibility diminishes the more you consider the observed natural tendencies of certain chemicals to form complex structures when subjected to various repetitive processes, such as rising and falling tides, the warmth and cold of day and night, or frequent geo-thermal eruptions.
Rather than behaving like stationary “letter blocks,” under the right conditions chemical compounds can be drawn to each other in remarkable ways, as the following video explains…


Once you factor in hundreds of millions of years of natural experimentation (scientists think it took the first billion of Earth’s 4.5 billion-year history for the earliest life-forms to develop), and infinite possibilities for experiments to go wrong, you begin to understand why abiogenesis is a worthy area of study. Its investigation certainly makes more sense than throwing in the towel because life must have originated through an originator who is above any questioning over his, her or its origin.
The idea of DNA arising naturally will certainly come to sound even less silly if, as many astro-biologists predict, life is found to be naturally occurring elsewhere in our solar-system. After all, if Earth was seeded with plant and animal life solely for the enjoyment of humans, for whose benefit did God repeat the trick on the dusty plains of Mars, or in the frigid, sub-surface waters of Europa?
The Creationist Professor
Slightly less sophisticated in his efforts to discredit evolution was Professor Raj Kalaria, who stuck to misrepresenting evolution as “random,” and as contradicted by “phenomenal complexity.”
“We were taught about evolution of life, and this was just part of the curriculum,” said Kalaria. “At the time there were no other options, as it were. God did not come in the picture at all, or God creating the heavens and the earth, as it were, never came in the picture.”
One wonders whether Professor Kalaria is equally indignant that he was never given “other options” when germ theory, or the theory of gravity, or the theory of plate tectonics came up in class.
Professor Kalaria busies himself at Newcastle University
Professor Kalaria busies himself at Newcastle University
 
“The brain is an extremely complex organ,” Kalaria continues. “And brain is what we are; what I am, what you are. No brain, no life. It’s as simple as that.”
But for 8 million Jehovah’s Witnesses worldwide, including Kalaria, it isn’t as simple as that. Kalaria supports the belief that human life can continue once a brain dies so long as its owner surrendered all critical thinking skills, and pledged full loyalty to a group of religious leaders based in New York.
Professor Kalaria believes that Christ will rule in heaven with 144,000 former humans who are no longer in need of their brains
Professor Kalaria believes that Christ will rule in heaven with 144,000 former humans who are no longer in need of their brains

In Kalaria’s mind, some people will be able to live as spirit creatures in heaven without brains, and these kingly entities will rule over a future Earth populated solely by Jehovah’s Witnesses, many of whom will be resurrected with new brains to replace the ones they lost at death.
Not very scientific, is it?!
“We started looking at the nerve cells themselves in terms of the volume and the number,” says Kalaria, suggesting certain colleagues at Newcastle University join him in his bold conclusions. To Kalaria, anti-science views probably have more weight when nameless others are said to concur.
“And it’s phenomenal that in that small area of the brain there are some 1.4 billion neurons. So the number of connections that make us, synapses they make, is phenomenal. Absolutely phenomenal. And so when you think about the complexity of all that, how is it possible that that is just by random chance? It has to be guided.”
Scientists would agree that it has to be guided, but they would not agree that the “guide” is a supreme entity who is keenly interested in what we do when we are naked, or how tight our pants are, or whether we take part in an immersion ritual. Natural selection, as explained, is a guiding force. And it is more than capable of producing “phenomenal complexity.”
In fact, when one truly grasps natural selection, a feat Professor Kalaria is yet to accomplish, one appreciates why complexity does not negate evolution. Pointing to complexity as evidence of God is otherwise known as “God of the gaps” reasoning, i.e. “I don’t know how this happened, therefore God did it.”
As convenient as this line of reasoning may be, it has an achilles heel – namely a failure to subject the creator himself to similar scrutiny. As Richard Dawkins observes in The Blind Watchmaker:

“If we want to postulate a deity capable of engineering all the organized complexity in the world, either instantaneously or by guiding evolution, that deity must have been vastly complex in the first place. The creationist, whether a naive Bible-thumper or an educated bishop, simply postulates an already existing being of prodigious intelligence and complexity. If we are going to allow ourselves the luxury of postulating organized complexity without offering an explanation, we might as well make a job of it and simply postulate the existence of life as we know it!”
The University closes ranks
I decided to reach out to Newcastle University to find out whether it endorses Professor Kalaria’s stance on evolution, and found myself in a rather frustrating email exchange with the Media Relations Manager at the University’s Faculty of Medical Sciences. After much to-ing and fro-ing, an official statement was finally forthcoming…
Dear Lloyd,
Please see the comment below.
A Newcastle University spokesperson said: “Academic freedom, which is written into Newcastle University’s statutes, allows all academic staff freedom to put forward opinions that do not necessarily represent the University.”
Best wishes,
That, I suppose, is a polite way of saying: “we don’t want to be associated with what this guy is saying.” Even so, I felt the University could be more emphatic given Kalaria’s suggestion that his views are shared. I replied…
Thank you…
Forgive me, but do you have any comment on Professor Kalaria saying “we,” thereby implying the support of his colleagues for his findings?
And does Newcastle University support Professor Kalaria’s anti-evolution views, or not?
The answer?
Dear Lloyd,
We have nothing further to add other than the statement provided.
Best wishes…
Though I can understand the representative’s awkward position as someone who shares a payroll with Professor Kalaria, I do feel saddened that, in this age of political correctness, Newcastle University is not able to be more robust in distancing itself from a piece of propaganda aimed at indoctrinating an entire generation to view science with suspicion.
newcastle_2571059b
Newcastle University has been less than emphatic in distancing itself from Kalaria’s comments

Thanks to his Hindu upbringing, Professor Kalaria may be enjoying the benefits of a decent education that allows him to live comfortably. But the vast majority of Witness children who will be made to absorb his anti-science rhetoric will have no such option.
They will be steered away from higher education, and taught to frown upon the scientific consensus wherever this conflicts with the ideas of Sam, Steve, Mark, Geoff, Dave, Tony and Gerrit.
Raj Kalaria may be entitled to his own opinion, but he also has a moral duty towards the impressionable minds who may be swayed by his credentials.
By using his reputation as a university Professor in this way, even implying the support of his colleagues, Kalaria has made himself an accessory in the exporting of backwards, ignorant, anti-science dogma at the expense of the intellectual development of countless children who will take his words seriously. And Newcastle University is happy to shrug its shoulders and effectively say: “it has nothing to do with us.”
More to come?
Goodness knows what pseudo-scientist double-act will replace Dovhanych and Kalaria as the next would-be demolishers of Darwin’s theory in future videos, but we can be reasonably assured of two things: (1) they will have a fundamental lack of understanding of evolutionary theory, and (2) they will be willing to jettison their credibility in furtherance of Watchtower’s creationist agenda.
We can at least be grateful that if the Watchtower cult were considered an organism, the habitat of the internet age is proving far less conducive to its survival than the age of ignorance from whence it spawned.
 
new-cedars-signature3
 
 
 
 
 
 
Further reading…
◾Rawstory: Jehovah’s Witnesses try to debunk evolution in their latest video – but come up short again
◾Liberal America: Jehovah’s Witnesses Attempt To Disprove Evolution, Fail Miserably
◾Friendly Atheist: Jehovah’s Witnesses Release Video Arguing That Evolution is a Myth
◾Freethinker: UK scientist helps Christian cult to promote creationism
◾Watchtower AGAIN misquotes scientist to argue against evolution – and this time, it’s personal!
◾Busted! – Recently disfellowshipped son finds shocking misquote in ‘Creation’ book
◾JW.org’s identity crisis: Jehovah’s Witnesses “do not agree with creationism”
Related video…




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167 Responses to Science-denial to be a regular feature of Watchtower’s monthly JW Broadcasting episodes

← Older Comments
 
 Randy Galbraith says:

 April 18, 2016 at 6:09 pm
 
Hi Holy,
Point well taken 🙂 By “fog” I really do mean of the type created by scientific inquiry. Here is the fictional conversation I imagine…
JW: So, Randy, you left the truth and no longer believe in God?
 me: Yes, I left the faith and I no longer believe in God.
 JW: Well, tell me then, how did life originate?
 me: I don’t know
 JW: You don’t know? Really?
 me: Yes, really, I don’t know.
 JW: You have no idea at all? Really?
 me: Well I’ve read books like The Spark of Life by Christopher Wills and Jeffrey Bada, but no definite answer was provided, so I still don’t know how life originated.
JW: Well, what do you know?
 me: Well I’m pretty certain life did originate — it is here now and we have good evidence it did not always exist.
 JW: And…
me: And the basic components of life, oxygen, carbon, hydrogen, etc, are the same material as non-living things.
 JW: And…
me: All examples of living things now come from parent forms. For every living thing there must have been a non-broken chain of ancestral parents. Life does not arise spontaneously, as shown by Pasteur, et al.
JW: So, you just admitted that life does not arise spontaneously, so you must still be believe in God.
 me: Forgive me, I should have added “now”, life does not spontaneously “now”, not that we can see. In fact the existence of free oxygen and existing life may preclude life originating in the current environment.
 JW: Yes, I’ve heard of these arguments for a “reducing atmosphere” creating a chicken-n-egg problem of no oxygen for life to start, yet no oxygen means no ozone to protect life once it got started. What do you think of that?
 me: I don’t know. I’m a software engineer, not a chemist or expert on likely ancient atmospheric conditions. Suffice to say, since it is living things that produce oxygen, it seems reasonable to believe there was less oxygen on earth before life existed. In fact how chemistry must of worked on the pre-life Earth, without living things to muck-around and interfere must have been pretty amazing and wide ranging.
JW: Well, I still believe, Jehovah created everything just as it says in Genesis.
 me: Like the first living cell 3.5 billion years ago? Or would he have prepared the organic chemistry that existed before that?
 JW: The Bible doesn’t say.
 me: You mentioned the problem about oxygen and reducing atmosphere, so wouldn’t this have also been a problem for Jehovah’s creation?
 JW: No, he is God Almighty, and all his creations were good.
 me: But, if, that first cell, didn’t reproduce it would go extinct, wouldn’t it?
 JW: Yes, but Jehovah would ensure that didn’t happen.
me: Okay, fine. What about Stygimoloch, did Jehovah create that too?
 JW: Yes, of course.
 me: At a different time than the first cell?
 JW: Yes, Genesis clearly shows Jehovah is a God of order not chaos.
 me: What would Jehovah do if the very first copy of Stygimoloch died without producing offspring?
 JW: I guess it would then be extinct, but since we have a fossil record we know that didn’t happen — so what is your point?
 me: Well, true the first copy must have lived and reproduce. But the fossil record shows something rather curious about this creation process. It seems Jehovah, as good as he is, can’t create living things that survive over generations. In fact, more than 90% of all organisms that have ever lived on Earth are now extinct. The Earth, rather than being a paradise oasis of life support in the cosmos, the place is down right hostile to life! From massive asteroids crashing into the planet to cycles of heating to mass ice-ages the planet routinely kills of life en masse.
JW: Hmm…
me: The larger point though is any obstacle one can imagine to the origin of life, would also be faced by any creator, both in terms of what he created and…
JW: and…
me: himself!
 JW: I knew you were going to say that! Who created God? Right?
 me: Well, yes, if Jehovah God is “alive”, then saying he created life on Earth, doesn’t address the the “origin of life” question, it merely pushes it into another realm.
So… welcome to the “fog” of “I don’t know” But don’t despair, it is not a bad place really. It allows one to sit back and wonder, all the while being ready, not to accept just anything, but to be open to new information that deepens our understanding of nature.
Cheers,
 -Randy
Reply
 
 dee2 says:

 April 18, 2016 at 7:01 pm
 
Thanks for this fictional conversation Randy.
It’s good to be reminded that “the Earth, rather than being a paradise oasis of life support in the cosmos, the place is down right hostile to life! From massive asteroids crashing into the planet to cycles of heating to mass ice-ages the planet routinely kills of life en masse.”
This is certainly something to think about when considering the argument that there is a supernatural reason why the Earth is the only habitable planet in the universe with the proper protection and environmental benefits it needed in order to become the home of humankind.
Reply
 
 dee2 says:

 April 18, 2016 at 9:53 pm
 
Earth hostile to life?
Powerful earthquakes in Japan and Ecuador:http://earthsky.org/earth/powerful-earthquakes-japan-ecuador-april-2016
Japan earthquake: tens of thousands flee in fear of aftershocks and volcanoes:http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/15/japan-earthquake-thousands-evacuated-volcanoes-aftershocks
Reply
 
 dee2 says:

 April 19, 2016 at 5:19 pm
 
Killed by Avalanches and Landslides – Worldmapper:http://www.worldmapper.org/posters/worldmapper_map252_ver5.pdf
Couple drown tragically on their honeymoon after being swept out to sea:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2370291/Ruth-Rowe-Bruce-Loev-drown-tragically-honeymoon-swept-sea.html
Reply
 
 dee2 says:

 April 20, 2016 at 1:08 pm
 
……….storms, hurricanes, typhoons, cyclones, tsunamis, tornados. It certainly seems to me that the earth is hostile to life.

 
 
 
 dee2 says:

 April 20, 2016 at 10:32 am
 
Can’t leave out the wildfires.
Fires in B.C.’s (British Columbia, Canada) north forces hundreds out:http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/fires-in-bcs-north-forces-hundreds-out/ar-BBrXPEb?li=AAggFp5&ocid=mailsignout
Reply
 
 
 
 
 Roman Castañeda says:

 April 18, 2016 at 7:17 pm
 
Good loving that was informational! Thank you so very very much
Reply
 
 Minion says:

 April 18, 2016 at 7:38 pm
 
@R,
Cheers, cheers, Hollywood USA could not have written a better story line.
Randy, you forgot to include at the end “the JW became an unbeliever”. and now follows JWSurvey religiously.
Peace out,
Reply
 
 
 
 
 Minion says:

 April 18, 2016 at 8:00 pm
 
A message to The Watchtower Corporation:
Each month your TV evangelising segment on science topics, your members Jehovah’s Witnesses will turn to JWSurvey to see the true perspective with out the Spin.
You 7 men are not competent, not school, not certified, and can’t handle the truth. You can not even prove your own facts and policies with the silver sword. Reconsider and don’t go down this road, you will not win. No victory or awards given from JWSurvey.
Peace out,
Reply
 
 
 Deep Thought says:

 April 18, 2016 at 8:05 pm
 
While I do believe there was a world wide catastrophe about 10,000 years which has been well documented in such publications as the following…
Forbidden Archaeology
 The Hidden History of the Human Race
 Red Earth, White Lies
 God Star
 and many others.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7EAlTcZFwY
The Wallace Line shows that it was not a worldwide catastrophe.
Is there a higher being taking credit as god or just trying to help us out or is directing the human race, not really sure.
Maybe the Sun is sentient and alive that influences all life here on earth. Who’s to say.
What I do know (subject to revision) is that theories come and go.
 I do not believe in the Big Bang
 I do not believe in Dark Matter
 I do not believe in Dark Energy
 I am still not sure about God (but its good to hedge your bets)
I do believe in the Electric Universe which explains all of the above and life in general, including DNA.https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/2016/04/15/dna-in-the-electric-universe-electricity-of-life/
We live in a three dimensional world but are limited in what we can see and hear in the spectrum. There is no 4th or 5th dimensions which are just products of someones over active imagination and their love of math.
All of Einsteins theories can be explained by simple refraction and electricity.
Reply
 
 Outandabout says:

 April 18, 2016 at 8:31 pm
 
But spare a thought for poor old Gallileo, aye. Put under house arrest for daring to suggest that the Earth was not at the centre of everything after all. Poor insecure Creationists! But, times have changed for the better, I suppose. At least when a new scientific ‘fact’ is discovered, rather than throwing the Scientist into jail, Creationists just throw themselves further into their very own Prison of Belief.
Reply
 
 Outandabout says:

 April 18, 2016 at 8:42 pm
 
“I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn’t work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness.” – US comedian Emo Philips
I’m not sure if this is funny or not, given that millions of people seriously base their lives on the essence of this. One could also wonder why the Bible and it’s teachings are so easily made fun of.
Reply
 
 
 Deep Thinker says:

 April 19, 2016 at 5:05 am
 
If I deny Global Warming, I am vilified or worse any funding or my job may be terminated.
 There is no difference from back then to today.http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/02/french-weatherman-fired-for-promoting-book-sceptical-of-climate-change
I try to keep an open mind on every possibility, and change my views as new evidence presents itself.
One theory that took me about 10 years to accept since I originally dismissed it without looking at the evidence because was so outlandish, was that at one time the earth was in orbit around Saturn – which was a Brown Dwarf in the past.
I think since I became a JW I spend too much time searching for the real origins of where we came from and what happened in the past.
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 April 19, 2016 at 7:09 am
 
“One theory that took me about 10 years to accept since I originally dismissed it without looking at the evidence because was so outlandish, was that at one time the earth was in orbit around Saturn – which was a Brown Dwarf in the past.”
I too was a brown dwarf in the past, and Saturn was my twin sister. I also had planets revolving around me. Of course, I would offer you evidence, but apparently you don’t need evidence to believe in stuff, so you can take my word for it.
Reply
 
 
 
 
 Cappytan says:

 April 19, 2016 at 5:34 am
 
“I do not believe in Dark Matter
 I do not believe in Dark Energy”
I suggest you examine the evidence: http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2006/aug/HQ_06297_CHANDRA_Dark_Matter.html
Reply
 
 Deep Thinker says:

 April 19, 2016 at 7:06 am
 
The evidence is plain to see.
https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/2015/10/22/does-dark-matter-actually-exist-space-news/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiKYvUtpJXA



Reply
 
 
 
 
 Wip it says:

 April 18, 2016 at 8:43 pm
 
They get you thinking about purpose, the why & what, it seems that many people need to believe something, i am now at a point where i don’t know anymore, sure i see intelligent & design but that doesn’t indicate one supreme being, people have seen other stuff as well, flying sauces etc etc, all i know is i am going to die like my parents & many friends, the JW prophecies are garbage & many people are tiring of the Borg, sure many bad things are happening in the world, does not prove to me anything that JW teach. So many people with their heads in the sand.
Reply
 
 Randy Galbraith says:

 April 19, 2016 at 11:23 pm
 
Hi Wip It,
Agreed! Seeing issues with my JW view of science was the crack that let in the light. But it was only the beginning that eventually led to a whole rewiring of how I viewed almost all aspects of my former faith.
Here for the fun of it, is another fictional encounter with a JW that addresses some of the topics in your post.
JW: What about the purpose of life?
 me: Can you be more specific?
 JW: Well, you’ve said you’re an atheist, so that must mean you see no purpose in life. That seems kinda bleak!
 me: Well, I do think life has a purpose, albeit perhaps a bit different than I use to.
 JW: So what is the purpose of life?
 me: The purpose of life is to reproduce more life according to kind.
 JW: That’s it? Nothing more?
 me: That’s it, yes.
 JW: What about homosexuals? You say you’re more accepting of them now and yet they don’t reproduce?
 me: Woe! Slow down! Human sexuality is a vast and complex area as is strategies that lead to reproductive success. Humans survive in groups and it is entirely possible that certain percentage of homosexuals within a group wasn’t a deterrent to reproduction, maybe it was even helpful.
JW: That still seems like not much of a purpose. I don’t see how your life could have any meaning.
 me: Why should the cosmos owe me anything more? Is it not enough that I’m alive now, I’m married to an angel, have four wonderful daughters, two great sons-in-law and one grandson? Must I cry fowl and say it is not enough?, and…
JW: You’re hesitating, do you want to say something else?
 me: … well, yes, I worry about the “purpose trap.”
JW: Purpose trap?
me: Did you ever see the movie Fiddler on the Roof?
 JW: I did
 me: Right at the beginning Tevye, asked how do we keep our balance? That, I can answer in one word “Tradition!”. He goes on to say, “because of our tradition everyone knows who he is and what God expects of him.”
JW: Yes, I love that movie!
 me: Do you see though the purpose trap?
 JW: No.
 me: It is in the phrase “what God expects of him.”
JW: Is that bad?
 me: Well if God exists, as Tevye believes, then it would be reasonable to for him to want to know what God expects of him. For the Witness the question is the same, what does Jehovah expect of me?
 JW: Well, true, and Jehovah tells us in James. To look after orphans and widows and to keep oneself without spot from the world.
 me: What about the preaching work?
 JW: Yes, of course, we must be at it in favorable season and troublesome season we must never give up in doing what is fine. The good news of God’s Kingdom must be preached world-wide.
me: Organized or ad-hoc?
 JW: Organized! Jesus set the pattern, he gave instructions and sent out his disciples two-by-two. We can also see by how the issue of how the question of circumcision was settled showed how God’s people functioned under and ancient Governing Body.
 me: The “trap” in such a “purpose” is upon honest and thoughtful reflection we can see, that everything about it aligns with the needs of the organization telling you what God’s purpose happens to be. Jehovah’s Witnesses print Bible literature so it is not surprising that distributing such literature becomes part of what God expects. The Witnesses run an impressive website with content in hundreds of languages, so again, part of the “purpose of life” becomes directing folks to a website. If you were a Mormon no doubt you would feel that part of purpose of life involved a priesthood and giving 10% of your income to the Church.
JW: But in all the incredible living things you surely can see the handiwork of a great designer. How can you deny such things as the migration of the Monarch butterfly?
 me: I don’t, I just look at it differently than I did as a Witness.
 JW: Well do you believe in Intelligent Design?
 me: Yes, I do.
 JW: What!? Really? I thought you said you believe in the theory of evolution?
 me: Yes, I do
 JW: I’m confused, which is it Intelligent Design or theory of evolution?
 me: Both
 JW: Stop it! How is it that you believe in the theory of evolution?
 me: The theory of evolution explains the origin of species. If evolution were not true the alternative of species created in one way and not changing over time would need to be true. If species do change over time it should be possible that so much change would accumulate that a new species would come into existence. I believe the evidence shows clearly that both the mechanism for change exists (reproduction and survival selection) and examples of living things past and present show evolutionary change over time really does happen. In contrast I see nothing that would keep a species forever static. If a group of humans moved to Mars and survived and reproduced under those different conditions, I see no reason to believe they wouldn’t become a different species — Martians — unable to reproduce with Humans. There is nothing in our DNA or in how we reproduce that demands that a species forever stay static and unchanging.
JW: Okay, how is it that you believe in Intelligent Design.
 me: Lots of things are the result of Intelligent Design. A computer for example. Individual components are designed by intelligent humans and eventually assembled into a whole unit.
 JW: Can you give an example not involving a human?
 me: Sure, a gopher hole is intelligently designed. The hole exists due to the intellect of the gopher. Many other examples exist such as birds nests and ant hills and beaver dams. But do you see a difference between how things evolve and intelligent design?
 JW: I think I see what you’re getting at. Evolution operates on self-reproduction and change-over-time, whereas things designed by an intelligence don’t reproduce and serve the purpose of the designer.
 me: You’ve got it! Don’t confuse the gopher with the gopher hole. Just because real living brains can design things with purpose, don’t assume there is purpose in everything. And be careful not to do the bidding of someone else, simply because they tell you such is “the purpose of life” and what “God expects” of you.
Cheers,
 -Randy
Reply
 
 
 dee2 says:

 April 20, 2016 at 9:18 am
 
“They get you thinking about purpose, the why & what……”
JWs have been programmed to believe that there is only one way that life can have meaning and purpose – if you live according to their beliefs and if you can live forever………the latter asks a bit of the cosmos – as I understand it, everything in the universe has an expiration date: planets, stars, galaxies….
“…….sure many bad things are happening in the world, does not prove to me anything that JW teach.”
The bad things happening in the world is the line of argument that is used to attract and trap many in the JW religion including myself when I used to be one. After a while one begins to see that the JW solution of a Paradise earth is nothing more than just a dangling carrot.
Reply
 
 
 
 Gary says:

 April 19, 2016 at 3:05 am
 
Excellent rebuttal Lloyd in the most recent John Cedars video. Besides the obvious and enjoyable, you raise several poignant points for Christians and those with faith in the bible to consider. Thank you.
Reply
 
 
 Randy Galbraith says:

 April 19, 2016 at 7:33 am
 
Hi Deep Thought,
On my FB feed Steve Hassan, ex-Unification Church member and author of Combating Cult Mind Control, posted an article that suggested a good way to test information is to ask for it to be explained in simple jargon-free terms.
“Big Bang” = Consequence of observing that the Universe is expanding and thus, in the past must have been smaller. Upon getting small enough it becomes a single point. When knowledge of physics is applied and computer models created it “appears” like an initial big explosion.
“Dark” = “Unknown”
 “Dark Matter” = A form of unknown matter, that if it exists, would account for certain aspects of cosmic size structures, such as gravitational lensing.
“Dark Energy” = A form of unknown energy, that if it exists, would account for recently detected acceleration of the universe.
“God” = At a minimum a concept of a super-being that exists within the mind of a believer and sometimes as a shared concept among a group of like minded believers. At a maximum a super-being outside the physical who created all things and is able to manipulate the physical world we live in.
“4th, 5th, nth dimensions” = A mathematical construct used to make String Theory logical and consistent. If real, these extra dimensions may wrap up bits of physical matter in ways that currently makes the dimensions themselves beyond our ability to observe.
JW: So if “dark” means “unknown”, does that mean you don’t know what dark matter and dark energy is?
 me: That’s correct. I certainly don’t know, I’m a software engineering, not a physics major, but as far as I’m aware, even they best and brightest scientists in the field don’t know.
 JW: What happened before the Big Bang?
 me: Your question makes no sense. The word “before” is a reference to time, which as we know it, only came into existence at the Big Bang.
 JW: So you believe the Universe just pop into existence from nothing?
 me: Yes. The key word in your question is “nothing” or “no thing”. All the laws we know like cause and effect, all the “things” we know, like matter and energy, is part of this Universe. Thus for the lack of a better word to mean something not part of this Universe, “nothing” works.
 JW: Couldn’t what you call “nothing” be Jehovah?
 me: Sure, but, such speculation would be pointless.
 JW: Pointless? How?
 me: Just like “before” the Big Bang makes no sense, so does speculation of anything outside the Universe.
 JW: Well I believe Jehovah created the Universe, if he caused the Big Bang so be it.
 me: Such meta-physical views are neither here nor there. We just can’t know — welcome to the “fog.” But, the story of Jehovah doesn’t just end there does it?
 JW: No! Jehovah is wonderful, he is the Rock, Perfect is his activity, all his ways are justice! Soon he will intervene in human affairs and create a paradise Earth.
 me: But Jehovah is interested in other things too, isn’t he? When Nadab and Abihu, sons of Aaron, offered “strange fire”, he killed them, right?
 JW: Yes, there were being disobedient.
 me: When Jehovah created humans he endowed them with a powerful sexual desire. This in turn would ensure they be fruitful and multiply an fill the Earth, right?
 JW: Yes, what’s your point?
 me: But when a young unmarried man or woman masturbates somewhere on Earth, he is interested in that and use his power through his organization to declare this an unclean habit. Leading some to feel awful guilt when they do this otherwise natural thing.
 JW: Sex is only to be enjoyed with God’s arrangement of marriage. Those young people simply need to learn self-control.
 me: Maybe, but it seems like a programmer adding a feature to a system then expect the user not to use it. Why add the feature, just to tempt the user?
 JW: Well that’s your view, but as for me and my household we will serve Jehovah
 me: Fair enough, but my point is, mere intellectual discussions about cosmology and origin of life and the theory of evolution is really leading to a point about obedience to Jehovah. And what that obedience means in specific detail really comes down to what the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses decide is important. Thus if we’re not careful a discussion about the Big Bang can suddenly and most oddly become a discussion on whether or not one should hug during prayer.
Cheers,
 -Randy
Reply
 
 Outandabout says:

 April 19, 2016 at 1:21 pm
 
I wouldn’t want God’s job. Out there with his Gameboy controller, controlling the Universe in every direction for billions of light years, exploding stars, forming new galaxies, creating black holes, etc, and all the while having to look back over his shoulder to keep a very very close eye on all the thousands of people in the world who would be masturbating at any one time, shaking his head and going “tsk tsk tsk, 24/7. Okay, one must not underestimate the importance of keeping an eye on masturbators, but hey, what a total distraction! Not only that, the poor guy’s mouth must be hideously dry all the time with that constant tsk-ing. Still…if it were easy, anyone could do it.
Reply
 
 Grace says:

 April 19, 2016 at 2:33 pm
 
Randy,
I love your analysis, it’s straight to the point. It’s the agenda. I didn’t think of it in a nutshell like that until you put it down like that. It’s all very manipulative isn’t it.
This article made me think of the list of Propaganda Techniques that Wt uses to manipulate, especially the uneducated (like me). I have never had an interest in science, I prefer philosophy. When I first started waking up, I went to that list so many times & realised that they tick just about every technique in the list. The one that I had thought of was the following:
Third Party Technique:
 *Works on the principal that people are more willing to accept an argument from a seemingly independent source of information than from someone with a stake in the outcome. It is a marketing strategy commonly employed by Public Relations (PR) firms, that involves placing a premeditated message in the “mouth of the media.”
The third party technique can take many forms, ranging from the hiring of journalists to report the organization in a favorable light, to using scientists within the organization to present their perhaps prejudicial findings to the public. Frequently, astroturf groups or front groups are used to deliver the message.
Reply
 
 
 
 
 James Broughton says:

 April 19, 2016 at 9:18 am
 
Lloyd, thank you for another superb article. Really this goes back to the centuries old debate of religion versus science. When our great British universities were founded back in the thirteenth century, theology was considered to be the Queen of Science because there was no real divergence of opinion. True, there were brave souls like Galileo and Copernicus who challenged the teaching of the Church. But it was a narrow, literalist interpretation of the Bible which created dissent, and JWs are not the only ones to be guilty of that. The quest for knowledge and truth is a common value and not the possession of one organisation, especially one which despises education and champions pseudo-science.
Reply
 
 
 Tara says:

 April 19, 2016 at 4:58 pm
 
I’m not into all this science jargon etc etc. Cogito ergo sum…..I think, therefore I am. I’m a Penny. The only Big Bang I can get my head around is on TV. I’ll let all you higher thinkers work this one out 🙂
Reply
 
 
 Doc Obvious says:

 April 19, 2016 at 5:51 pm
 
Before the JW Broadcast network, we never knew these 2 scientists existed. For every 2 scientists who are against evolution, there are 12 scientists that are for evolution. In addition, these 2 are not well known in the scientific community and no one is actually seeking their comment. Other scientists that are more well known such as Michio Kaku, Neil deGrasse Tyson, Stephen Hawking, Carl Sagan, Richard Feynman, Einstein, Marie Curie, and others are well known and have contributed a substantial amount to the scientific community are respected more than the 2 scientists in the recent JW Broadcast. Let’s stick to the ones who are known, not the ones that are not known.
Reply
 
 
 Vinitha says:

 April 19, 2016 at 6:13 pm
 
Glad to see your article Cedars, just focusing on the these two guys in addition to the rebuttal video.
The contribution of the guys in the video seemed to be just providing justifications for shifting their personal ideology from atheist/agnostic to theist view based on their professional insight and Bible. What intrigues me is that both the guys did not mention the name Jehovah, it must be either because they are not JWs yet or the JW.ORG wanted to push forward scientific justification for their view on creation so they obtained independent opinions of two well respected people and twisted it for their propaganda agenda. Whatever it may be, it is important that the people from scientific community understand their social responsibility and abstain from vocalizing their personal views to promote cults.
The zoologist seems to be much more drawn into the cult spell than the professor who is still under programming. However, if these guys did this interview because they were under the influence of cult programming then WE the members of ex-JW community forgive you.
This interview from the zoologist and professor stands testimony of the effect JW indoctrination could have on well educated open-minded adults trained in critical thinking and it makes one shudder thinking of the adverse effect it would have on the minds of young children. This has to STOP!
Intellectual curiosity led me to dig more on Bible as a mature adult 30+. There were many times I thought I had enough of the crap but the JW girl kept coming for 4 years, I proceeded to study thinking she was a genuine friend. It was hard to be rude and impolite although I was in the end and she pleaded with me not to throw the towel. After few days I felt bad for hurting a good friend and got back. Once they signed me up for baptism the special pioneer girl and her husband moved to another congregation. After this, it took me a couple of years to obtain the courage to walk out.
It starts with providing fodder to your intellectual curiosity and then emotional blackmail to bind people to their cult. So the scientific community, please stop substantiating your believes without proofs as authentic due to your education/qualification so that you can help to put an end to the beginning of cult programming.
An apology letter from the Professor and the zoologist would be greatly appreciated. However if you both think this is a test of your faith or persecution of JWs for the sake of Jehovah as taught by the JWs then all we could do is wish you good luck with the JDubs.
Reply
 
 
 alan says:

 April 20, 2016 at 12:22 am
 
A good thing would be if every one here wrote to the University asking if other scientist there shared the same viewpoint since he used the word “we”. I wonder what their response would be? One person questioning about a thing can be ignored but 100’s questioning is not so easy. This way the individual may be taken to task and told to in effect “shut up” since he is bringing the University into disrepute.
Reply
 
 
 Cherie says:

 April 20, 2016 at 10:30 am
 
I went back to college as an older person after many years away from the witnesses. When my biology professor raised the topic of evolution, I listened with some trepidation, but kept an open mind. Now I realize that to deny evolution is to deny our connection to everything else in the living world. Even when I was a believer, I never thought of evolution and creation as mutually exclusive. Staunch creationist beliefs only serve to feed human superiority.
Reply
 
 
 Will F. says:

 April 23, 2016 at 1:43 am
 
Hello there,
 How about we just skip right to the root of all of this?
 Assuming the causality principle doesn’t apply to space/time (because I know many atheists/scientists find it convenient to dismiss that for their argument) and therefore does not apply to the cause of the Big Bang (which I wholly believe in, for the record….I also do not believe in the preposterous idea that Earth was created in 6,000 years….there are actually many scientific ideas and theories that make perfect sense to me), what then caused the Big Bang? I’ve read that a quantum fluctuation is a possibility. Ok fine. Where did that come from (ad nauseum)? In order to end that loop of infinite questions, there are really only two answers….God, or nothing.
 As someone who believes in a creator, of course I would say God, but as an atheist one’s only other option is nothing, correct?
 That being said, how is believing that everything sprung up from nothing any different than believing in an infinite creator (i.e. also came from nothing, had no creator himself, and therefore has no ’cause’) who exists outside of time and space yet created everything from nothing?
 They’re pretty much the same thing if you think about it. To me, however, one is a lot harder pill to swallow than the other.
 Just my $.02
 Best,
 -Will
Reply
 
 Winston Smith says:

 April 23, 2016 at 5:19 am
 
I agree with your reasoning Will and likewise choose to believe that the Big Bang was caused by a creator and that the universe has a purpose. The point is that l “choose” to credit the Big Bang to a creator. It can just as easily be argued that there was no intelligent cause for the Big Bang. An agnostic would likely argue that none of us were around for the Big Bang, so to argue one way or another is pointless.
I’m reminded of a song that came out a few years ago called BU2B (brought up to believe). Here are a couple of lines I like:
I was brought up to believe
 The universe has a plan
 We are only human
 It’s not ours to understand
The universe has a plan
 All is for the best
 Some will be rewarded
 And the devil will take the rest
All is for the best
 Believe in what we’re told
 Blind men in the market
 Buying what we’re sold
Believe in what we’re told
 Until our final breath
 While our loving Watchmaker
 Loves us all to death
WS
Reply
 
 Will F. says:

 April 23, 2016 at 12:24 pm
 
Thanks for your comment. On the other side of the coin, it is impossible to prove or disprove the existence of a creator through science, because at that point it becomes more philosophy and conjecture than actual science. I have seen many things in science that also uses ‘if’ in its findings.
 Ultimately, it is up to one’s own faith (faith applies to more than just religion) and personal convictions based on research and meditation whether they believe in a creator or choose not to.
Reply
 
 
 
 dee2 says:

 April 23, 2016 at 7:09 am
 
“……… how is believing that everything sprung up from nothing any different than believing in an infinite creator (i.e. also came from nothing, had no creator himself, and therefore has no ’cause’) who exists outside of time and space yet created everything from nothing?”
Very good question Will F. It all boils down to what one chooses to believe. For some, positing a God explains nothing. This merely adds further complications since the question now is: who created the God who created the God who created God……………….
One can simply answer this by choosing to believe that the universe had to have a First Cause but that First Cause didn’t have to have a First Cause. It all boils down to what one chooses to believe.
Reply
 
 dee2 says:

 April 23, 2016 at 9:34 am
 
Either you believe that:
 1. God came from nothing OR
 2. The universe came from nothing
Pick your choice, it’s all up to you.
Reply
 
 
 Will F. says:

 April 23, 2016 at 12:41 pm
 
Thank you for your reply.
 I guess my question to your answer would be, how does positing that everything came from nothing explain anything either?
 If one believes that God came from nothing (always existed, according to the scriptures), at least you have a starting point and explains the ‘how and why’. If no one created the creator, then it is still the same thing as starting from nothing….asking me to answer how that happened is the same as me asking you how everything came from nothing. Of course, trying to understand how and why everything came from nothing poses its own challenges as well. Ultimately, as an atheist one would have to put faith in science that it will eventually answer that question satisfactorily. You are, in effect, putting your faith in the abilities of another imperfect human'(s’) understanding of how things work who just might have unknowingly given the wrong answer. Even the scientific community disagrees within itself on how everything came to be and has yet to come up with a definitive solution.
Reply
 
 dee2 says:

 April 23, 2016 at 3:01 pm
 
As Randy commented above: ‘welcome to the “fog” ‘ when trying/attempting to explain anything before the Big Bang.
Maybe one day we will hear from God what the real story before the Big Bang is, or maybe one day humans will become perfect so that we will no longer be putting our faith in the abilities of another imperfect human'(s’) understanding of how things work who just might have unknowingly given the wrong answer. I wonder though, can humans ever become perfect so that we can be sure that we are getting the right answer about how things work? Pity humans have an imperfection handicap which affects our mental aptitude/intellectual capacity so that we are at risk of not getting the right answer about how things work.
Getting back to the topic/focus of this article – as I understand it, whether or not one believes in a Creator, biological evolution is plausible, since it has nothing to do with what happened before the Big Bang as some persons believe.
Reply
 
 
 
 
 
 Geoff says:

 April 23, 2016 at 4:41 pm
 
Stick to debunking what can be debunked….
Reply
 
 dee2 says:

 April 23, 2016 at 5:20 pm
 
Can the WT’s stance against evolution be debunked?
Reply
 
 Geoff says:

 April 23, 2016 at 5:56 pm
 
It depends on which side of the debate you are on. I guess my idea of helping people wake up to the Watchtower is not to turn them off by debating issues of when and how the Big Bang happened/process of evolution, etc. In my mind all this does is sink to the level of Watchtower.
I think that if someone wanting to find information or help leaving Watchtower comes across articles like this it will not help them to leave. That was my thought when I wrote OP.
This is coming from someone that has just recently woke up. Still dealing with fading, family, etc. An article like this, when I was first waking up, would not have helped one bit at all. That’s just my situation, I am not naive to the fact that this might be more of an issue with others however.
Reply
 
 dee2 says:

 April 23, 2016 at 7:41 pm
 
The point was made in an earlier comment that evolution does not equal atheism. Most JWs are of the opinion that evolution and atheism are one and the same which would explain your thinking that if someone wanting to find information or help leaving Watchtower comes across articles like this it will not help them to leave.
Reply
 
 
 
 
 
 Julien says:

 April 25, 2016 at 10:13 am
 
When you are raised in this religion you really are blinded. After I left the jw’s I still found it difficult to accept evolution. I didnt even beleive cavemen where real. ( I did always have the nagging feeling that they definetely had to be wrong about dinosaurs.) It wasnt until a few years later when I visited the Smithsonian institute that i really got it. It was such an eye opener. I fell in love with science, with my human race, with the beauty of just being alive. Arguments aside about wrong or right, anyone raised in this religion that is questioning, my advise is don’t ever stop. Unlearning what one is conditioned to beleive from birth is difficult but totally rewarding.
Reply
 
 
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News Bulletin: Watchtower Faces Dilemma in Sex Abuse Ruling
avatar 
Posted on April 20, 2016

Lopez and Zalkin address the media at a press conference
Lopez and Zalkin address the media at a press conference

Regular readers of JW Survey may recall the 2014 landmark court case of Jose Lopez in the US.
The JW Survey coverage of the case can be found here, but to cut a long story short, Lopez had been repeatedly abused by Jehovah’s Witness Gonzalo Campos. Watchtower knew about it. Watchtower did nothing. Watchtower got sued.
Watchtower refused to produce key evidence during the trial, despite a court order demanding they do so, namely their internal records demonstrating that they’ve known about, and covered up, their sex abuse problem for decades. Furthermore, Watchtower’s oldest and longest serving member of the Governing Body, Gerrit Lösch, refused to comply with the court’s demand for his deposition. Lösch stated in court documents that “I do not answer to Watchtower,” and “Watchtower does not have, and never has had, any authority over me.”  Details of this statement were covered in the November 8th 2014 news report from JW Survey.
For those who have been following this issue for some time, Watchtower’s reluctance to release this child abuse data should come as no surprise. When they were forced to release similar documents in Australia in 2015 (under the apparently more compelling threat of imprisonment rather than financial penalty,) these documents resulted in headlines around the world. The Religion had been covering up over 1000 alleged molesters in its ranks since 1950, many of whom went on to be repeat offenders.
So, Watchtower crossed its arms and point blank refused to comply with the US court order. As a result of this jaw dropping and blatant contempt of court, the judge threw out their entire defense, entered a default judgment for Lopez, and slapped Watchtower with punitive damages in excess of $13 million.
Incredibly, Watchtower then appealed this verdict, apparently believing that they should be able to flout the instructions of the US Legal system without penalty.
Appeal Court Rules: Watchtower must produce documents.
lopez-gonzalo-campos
Zalkin, Campos and Lösch

The San Diego Tribune has just reported on the outcome of this appeal, and the results are not great for either side.
Firstly, the appeal court removed the 13.5 million dollar judgement against Watchtower. But if you think that sounds like a victory for Watchtower, you need to keep reading the news report. The appeals court agreed with the original trial Judge that Watchtower absolutely has to produce this data. Their only point of contention is that, rather than simply terminate Watchtower’s defence and hit them with a $13.5 million judgement, the original trial judge should have tried a few less punitive measures first to try and get cooperation.
The other issue discussed was the hotly debated deposition of Governing Body member Gerrit Lösch, whose testimony was deemed relevant to the investigation. Court documents reveal that Watchtower attorneys went to great lengths to disconnect Gerrit Lösch from any responsibility for the actions of the Watchtower organization. In fact, Lösch was compared by Watchtower counsel to the Dalai Lama following a December 2013 hearing. The court stated:

“Watchtower requested permission to submit additional information regarding the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ organizational structure, and the role of the Governing Body within this structure, including that Lösch’s role is solely one of a spiritual leader (“akin to the Dalai Lama”) and not “a corporate managing agent.”
Watchtower fought so hard to insulate Gerrit Lösch, that the California Court of Appeals finally gave in and agreed that Lösch was not a “managing agent” for Watchtower and could not be compelled to testify in this case.
However, arriving at this decision was not an admission that Lösch does not manage Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Watchtower corporations. The appeals court declared:

“With these principles in mind, we turn to consider the three Waters factors: (1) does the person exercise judgment and discretion in dealing with the party’s matters; (2) can the person be expected to comply with the party’s directive to appear; and (3) can the person be anticipated to identify himself or herself with the party’s interests. (Waters, supra, 58 Cal.2d at p. 896.)
Lopez’s evidence satisfies the first and third factors.”
The court agreed that “Lösch is a long-standing member of the Governing Body, which approves operational guidelines for the United States Branch of the Jehovah’s Witnesses organization, including issuing directives for preventing and investigating child sexual abuse within the church.”
So why did the court dismiss the ruling to depose Lösch ? It all came down to the second “factor” – whether Lösch could be “expected to comply”. The documents state:

“However, Lopez failed to produce any evidence on the second Waters factor: whether the proposed deponent can be expected to comply with the party’s directive to appear. Although there was evidence indicating the Governing Body (and its members) asserted authority over Watchtower and could influence its conduct, there was no evidence showing the reverse was true. For example, Lopez proffered no facts to indicate that Lösch receives compensation or other tangible benefits from Watchtower or that Governing Body members had previously complied with such deposition directives”
In other words, the court agreed That Gerrit Lösch controls Watchtower, but the Watchtower does not control and compensate Gerrit Lösch, and insufficient evidence was presented demonstrating that Watchtower could and would compel Lösch to testify in this case, regardless of the fact that he is the senior Governing Body member of Jehovah’s Witnesses. (And that he receives lifetime accommodations, unlimited meals, spending money, travel around the world, and health care which would be the envy of the President of the United States).
You might say that Gerit Lösch is hiding in plain sight.
governing body members and committees 2014This stance by Watchtower legal counsel amounts to legalized perjury, if there were such a thing. Documents produced by the JW Organization place Lösch at the head of the “Personnel Committee” and second only to Samuel Herd on the “Service Committee” for Jehovah’s Witnesses as of September 2014. This same Service Committee includes subordinates such as Leon Weaver, Jr., a prominent member of the U.S. Branch Committee, whose name appears on multiple legal documents, tying Weaver and the Service Committee to the core administration for Jehovah’s Witnesses in the United States. In fact, Weaver is listed as the President of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York. Whether the Court of Appeals was made aware of this connection is not clear. One thing that is clear however is the fact that Watchtower’s decision to remove all Governing Body members from their legal corporations in the year 2000 has served to insulate their leaders from the judicial process. This is Watchtower’s version of diplomatic immunity.
It may be of interest to JW Survey readers (and the Governing Body) that the document shown above, along with the leaked Branch Organization manual, were crucial to the 2015 subpoena of Geoffrey Jackson during the Australian Royal Commission on Child Abuse in Sydney. The Australian government was informed of Jackson’s key role in establishing and approving JW policies and was not tricked by the legal tactics used in an attempt to shield Jackson.
Leon Weaver, Jr. Signature as President of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York
Leon Weaver, Jr. Signature as President of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York (2012 Sale of 165 Columbia Heights)

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
So, the case is now going back to the original trial judge, who will attempt to try and subpoena the child abuse case documents from Watchtower with a slightly smaller stick. However, the appeal acknowledges that should Watchtower refuse to comply when the lesser sanctions are imposed, then deploying the huge financial penalty is legitimately right back on the cards.
In other words, Watchtower is faced with the same choice as before: Reveal documents that are assuredly damning to them, or pay out huge sums of money.
The paper quotes Jose Lopez’ lawyer, Irwin Zalkin, as saying:

“From our perspective, this has always been about getting the documents,” he said. He added that Watchtower has produced some prior abuse documents in other lawsuits, but they have been heavily redacted and of little use.
“They don’t want the world to know what they’ve known about child sex abuse within their organization for decades and they’ve been trying desperately to keep that covered up,” Zalkin said.
Additionally, the extra publicity and internet traffic that will now be generated by the ongoing case will only serve to draw more attention to the issue, especially among the ranks of Jehovah’s Witnesses, whom it’s clear that Watchtower’s leaders are trying to keep in the dark as relates to this.
However, whilst this judgement essentially only serves to prolong and draw attention to Watchtower’s agony, it also serves to delay justice for Jose Lopez, who will need to endure yet more of the trial process before receiving recompense for the damage that the horrendously flawed policies of Watchtower have inflicted upon him.
For those who wish to read the detailed 55 page court ruling, click here.
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35 Responses to News Bulletin: Watchtower Faces Dilemma in Sex Abuse Ruling

 M. Rhodes says:

 April 20, 2016 at 1:18 pm
 
And what is to stop them from shedding the documents, so that there are only a few? Would they resort to damage control? Have they done this before?
Reply
 
 John Redwood says:

 April 20, 2016 at 1:30 pm
 
Shredding documents would be a disastrous and risky move for Watchtower, since they would likely be held in contempt for destruction of vital documents, and could face extreme negative publicity in the press as well as court ordered penalties. They will need to tread very carefully in this area
Reply
 
 Stupid4Jesus says:

 April 24, 2016 at 12:20 pm
 
When will the re-trail start, then we will know if it is the list of child molsters is what brings them down or the contempt of the court. Either way Watchtower is going to have a very long year. I sure hope law enforcement gets too look at those documents. This has been the most important news I have read on this site. Thanks
Reply
 
 Stupid4Jesus says:

 April 24, 2016 at 12:26 pm
 
Maybe Watchtower can sell some of is stock in U.S. Defense company’s to pay Mr. Lopez and all the other victims. They have billions in this fund. Look and see what they own in Satan’s system. http://nccsweb.urban.org/communityplatform/nccs/organization/profile/id/386043103
Reply
 
 
 
 
 
 Dee says:

 April 20, 2016 at 1:48 pm
 
There is already a directive in place to destroy documents and personal notes about molestation cases. The WTS might say, instead of setting a dangerous precedent by producing damning documents, we’ll just keep eating the $ penalties. But the internet does not allow for the Wizard of Oz curtains, smoke, and mirrors trick any more. The curtain has been irreparably rent, and the selfish frauds at the top…revealed like the cockroaches they are.
Reply
 
 
 ruthlee says:

 April 20, 2016 at 2:33 pm
 
Where is Jesus in all of this? The gb should be on their knees praying day and night . Ah but then they will get holes in their expensive suits. This is a truly shameful situation they find themselves in and it has nothing to do with preaching the gospel. Funny that they of all self righteous, self appointed goons should be so sidetracked from their kingdom agenda.Such an unholy alliance with slick lawyers was always going to end in tears. Slow but sure with God’s mill grind. They cannot have it both ways, either the catholic church was mother and she got her comeuppance and justice was served or this organisation is mother and the smashing instrument is about due a smashing time soon. Either way if this org is from god or the devil one thing is sure there has been a hell of a lot of child sacrifice going on over the decades and that will not do. They are acting like there is something to hide. Obviously jesus is on vacation or guiding warwick. He is not giving them any divine revelations at the moment. It is all a mess and a muddle and certainly not clean and upstanding as they profess. ruthlee
Reply
 
 
 Claire Gorman says:

 April 20, 2016 at 2:39 pm
 
Oh deary me! Home to roost eh? Yes the world is getting worse. That I don’t deny. Yes the second coming is approaching. Of that I am a firm believer. But not in the way these Shylocks are predicting. Gods organisation, if sprit directed, would not abuse individuals, nor would it try to cover up the charges. The tower is teetering on the brink. I have had testimony from witnesses I still have contact with that Memorial numbers were down. The tower is now asking a pound of flesh on “voluntary” donations and each court case it contests will only drain the coffers further. Good luck with that!! Excellent article, keep em coming!
Reply
 
 
 Big B says:

 April 20, 2016 at 2:47 pm
 
It’s a pitiful shame and a miscarriage of justice if the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is allowed to continue playing this “hide and seek” game with evidence that the courts need.
Frankly, if this game of theirs continues the whole bunch of these low life, Bible thumping, pedophile protecting, rat bags should be found in contempt of court with all of their assets frozen and files seized by Federal Authorities.
Just wait until this election is over this November and see whether the politicians will devote more time investigating this sham religious Millerite throwback. I know I’ll be writing my congressman and senator about it (Federal and State) with inclusions to JWsurvery.org, by God.
Thanks once again for the updates “Covert Fade”. Keep up the good work.
Reply
 
 Big B says:

 April 20, 2016 at 3:15 pm
 
Oh, and jail time for contempt of court. Plenty of jail time in a Federal Penitentiary just like that sot “Judge” ‘set up another round’ Rutherford and his gang. Don’t separate them from the general population either.
After being raped a few times in the showers with no one to help them maybe, just maybe, they will learn what being a victim is and have more empathy for what they have put these child molestation victims through. That would truly be Divine Justice.
Well one can still dream, can’t one?
Reply
 
 
 Outandabout says:

 April 21, 2016 at 10:40 pm
 
I don’t know how the American justice system works, but maybe the courts are being careful of setting a precedent if they come down too hard on these Goons.
 The First Amendment is in need of amendment in order to better serve the needs of a modern society.
 It’s totally ironic how the Watchtower can only exist and expand in a Democracy, but as soon as a person is snared by them, they are put under the rule of a mini dictatorship and taught to despise democracy and not only that, taught to hate the armed forces which fought and died to protect the very democracy which allows Watchtower to exist in the first place.
 One of the things which has helped Watchtower to expand in the last few decades is the spread of Democracy around the world. Democratic neighbours are far less likely to go to war with each other. War is becoming un- P.C. Last Days?
Reply
 
 
 
 Daniel Roberts says:

 April 20, 2016 at 2:58 pm
 
Satan would be pretty damn impressed with how insidiously sly and devious the Watchtower and it’s legal team are.
Reply
 
 Bad Penny says:

 May 3, 2016 at 12:31 pm
 
Yep, the Devil looks after his own alright!
Reply
 
 
 
 PamelaB says:

 April 20, 2016 at 9:25 pm
 
Wonderful article! Thank you so much for sharing! I’m still puzzled as to why these maggots in the governing body are not jailed! For all we know there is still abuse taking place right now! We need to protect the children or anyone else who is being abused! Any other organization would be dismantled fined and there would be an imprisonment imposed! They need to be shut down!!!!….Yesterday!!!!!
Reply
 
 
 gary says:

 April 20, 2016 at 11:55 pm
 
Interestingly James 5. 1-7 indicates this would take place before the presence while Paul (2thess2) shows there would be a false presence presided over by a man of lawlessness (1914)
 How scripturally lawlessis it to hide documents relating to child abuse?
 My comment is directed towards those who are JWs.
 Nevertheless it is a shameful situation for those who claim to adhere to biblical standards.
Reply
 
 
 gary says:

 April 21, 2016 at 12:39 am
 
If and I say if you can get a JW to reason, and whichever point or teaching it may be, and the light comes on then the process of free thought begins and the scales, as it were, fall off.
 That’s the reason I post comments from a biblical point of view and not for subversive preaching though being having a belief.
Reply
 
 
 Andrea says:

 April 21, 2016 at 12:40 am
 
That’s very disappointing to hear. They deserved the punitive damages against them. I cannot understand how it’s ok in the US to be in contempt of court, refuse to turn up or provide documents. Losch should’ve been jailed for that and WT fined. I don’t see the problem.
 The appeals court for some strange reason felt that WT needs to be cuddled into providing these documents. Why?! Just because they’re a religious organisation is no reason for them to be treated in a more privileged way than any other defendant. Just awful.
 Hope Jose is up for this battle and wins, again.
Reply
 
 
 Willows says:

 April 21, 2016 at 12:51 am
 
The case of the good Samaritan, he came across a man, beaten by robbers and left half dead by the side of the road he was travelling. Other persons also saw the beaten man. What did they do? They crossed over to the other side of the road and left the beaten man. The Samaritan man travelling the same road saw the beaten man stopped and rendered aid. Taking him to an Inn, paying the Inn-keeper accommodation for the injured man, even saying to the Inn-keeper when I return if what I have paid you is not enough I will pay the balance on my return.
Now who proved to be neighbor to the injured man. The answer, the one who rendered aid.
 Give credit where credit is due, and exposed others as hypocrites. Not worthy of credit because of their actions, walking away when others are in need.
Reply
 
 
 wifibandit says:

 April 21, 2016 at 12:30 pm
 
Does anyone know how I can obtain a copy of the full deposition of Richard Ashe, Jr.?
I have only have seen the clip used by Trey Bundy where Ashe says “ours is a spiritual protection”
Reply
 
 
 AussieneedingComfort says:

 April 21, 2016 at 3:15 pm
 
Personally, I hope that the game afoot is that the courts are closing all loop holes that may be used in the future. By going back and offering less severe options, when the WT refuses, again, to comply with the requested documents, and the courts are compelled to use the “heavy hammer” with them, there will be no place the WT can go to avoid providing all requested documents. I am watching this case very closely and expecting that the arrogance and pride of the 7 men will out weigh any sense of decency or justice for the victims and they will go to jail “for their faith” before conceding to the requests of Caesar. At that point the truth of why they have to go to jail will cause the entire org to collapse. May just be wishful thinking on my part…but I am going to watch and see.
Reply
 
 
 AussieneedingComfort says:

 April 21, 2016 at 3:17 pm
 
Wifibandit: https://jwleaks.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/richard-ashe-14-3-31.pdf
Reply
 
 wifibandit says:

 April 21, 2016 at 4:46 pm
 
Thank you. I should have been more clear. I want the video.
Reply
 
 
 
 Tara says:

 April 21, 2016 at 4:40 pm
 
Well maybe Prince will leave them something in his will RIP Prince.
Reply
 
 
 Wip it says:

 April 21, 2016 at 4:53 pm
 
That newspaper article is very damming indeed, the rank & file will just keep saying the same thing, satanic lies & propaganda, the ship is sinking
Reply
 
 Tara says:

 April 21, 2016 at 5:12 pm
 
Exactly, Wip it. There is little point saying anything to R&F until they start to see it for themselves. I don’t see anyone now as I haven’t attended a meeting since before Xmas. The elders stopped calling for my report and those that wanted to talk to me – sorry those that wanted to shepherd me got an abrupt ‘no thanks’. So I am on the bad girls list. I’ll wait my times until someone asks the right question. I store up these news reports and like to keep track just in case they want proof. But alas, journalism is a tool of satan used to spread evil lies about the saintly WT and it’s GB. Bollocks I say….. did I say that…. tisk tisk…. bad influence.
Reply
 
 
 
 wifibandit says:

 April 21, 2016 at 5:13 pm
 
In the ruling, pg 47. under “3. Insufficient Evidence Showing Lösch Is a Managing Agent” the court found that Lopez failed to satisfy the 2nd (of 3) Waters factors:
“(2) can the person be expected to comply with the party’s directive to appear;”
I believe I can.
Lösch, as an individual, is a member of the World Wide Order of Special Full-time Servants. He is a member of the US Bethel family.
As such, he receives his monthly reimbursement, PEA, Health Insurance (compliance with ACA), room and board provided by US Branch (Leon Weaver et al) which is operates under the direction of the GB – as evidenced by their literature.
Also, as a member of Bethel he has had to sign a form that declares that he follow the instructions of “The Order” (see Bethel application A-8-E):
“…This means that you view special full-time service as a rare privilege that calls for whole-souled devotion and strong faith and that you are willing to accept whatever assignment you are given by the Order. (Mark 10:28-30) Such assignments could include serving as a member of a Bethel family, as a construction servant, as a full-time commuter, or in another avenue of special full-time service. …”
The oversight nature of the Governing Body over “The Order” is established in these two paragraphs at the end of the same form (A-8-E):
“This application is an expression of my personal desire to be a member of the Worldwide Order of Special Full-Time Servants of Jehovah’s Witnesses (the “Order”). If accepted, I will give my assignment of service priority over all other activities. I will be diligent in taking full advantage of the provisions for study and discussion of God’s Word that are made for members of the Order. I will also share regularly in the field service and in the meetings of the congregation that I attend. I will at all times conduct myself in full harmony with all the regulations that apply to those in special full-time service—such as matters having to do with secular work and the high standards of dress and grooming—as well as the counsel of God’s Word that applies to all Christians. I will be content and satisfied with the modest support that I receive from the Order as long as I am privileged to continue in the Order. Should I choose to leave the Order or should the Order determine that I no longer qualify to serve in the Order, I will not expect any remuneration. (Matt. 6:30-33; 1 Tim. 6:6-8; Heb. 13:5) I recognize that the Order has the right to determine if and when my
 membership should be terminated.
I hereby consent to the collection and processing of my personal data necessary for the evaluation of my application to serve as a member of the Order. I further consent to the branch office of Jehovah’s Witnesses that administers the activities of Jehovah’s Witnesses in my geographic area processing and retaining for its use the information found on this application and any additional information that may be submitted in connection with my application by individuals serving as elders of Jehovah’s Witnesses or by me. I understand that the transfer of my personal data to the branch office of Jehovah’s Witnesses and to the ecclesiastical Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses (the “Governing Body”) in the state of New York, U.S.A., may be necessary for the evaluation of my application to serve as a member of the Order. I authorize the transfer to the Governing Body of the information found on this application and any additional personal information that the Governing Body
 deems necessary regarding my capacity to serve as a member of the Order.”
Reply
 
 Ready 4 to Fade says:

 April 24, 2016 at 5:56 am
 
Thank you WiFi for all of your work in behalf of the ex JW community!
Reply
 
 
 
 Caleb & $ophia says:

 April 21, 2016 at 9:35 pm
 
What a bunch of slimey, deceitful, lying snakes!
They sure know how to play their cards. This upsets me.
Justice will catch up to them. Keep up the good work Cedars.
Reply
 
 
 Caleb & $ophia says:

 April 21, 2016 at 9:44 pm
 
Once the media in Mexico & Brazil starts publicizing these lawsuits, the victims in those countries will start coming forward with lawsuits as well. Those countries have over 700k publishers each and it stands to reason that there are many silenced abuse victims there too. Once they realize that they don’t have to suffer in silence and keep their victimization private, more trouble will hit the Watchtower Corporation and the 7 members of the GB.
So far it seems that only the USA, UK and Australia has been exposing the policies protecting pedophiles of the WT.
Reply
 
 
 Ready 4 to Fade says:

 April 22, 2016 at 10:40 pm
 
I just finished watching the movie “Spotlight” about the Boston globe’s work on exposing the Catholic Church. Maddening that Cardinal Law was actually promoted to a new diocese in Rome, Italy. All of the fanfare around the Pope, obviously he is an improvement in his level of tolerance etc. but how can he possibly clean house to the extent needed.
 I digress, sorry, the point is that it was similar internal documents in the Catholic Church that led to their exposure and over $1billion in payouts. I’m not sure of the total tally of priests that were indicted world-wide. Somehow I doubt it is 24,000 like the documents will show in the Lopez case. This could be a huge tipping point.
 I recognize that the Catholic Church did not crumble entirely. There are 1 billion worldwide though, and they are in a culture that emphasizes forgiveness, not holding itself up as the “only truth.”. I don’t see JW.org weathering a similar storm quite as well.
Reply
 
 
 Ready 4 to Fade says:

 April 24, 2016 at 6:05 am
 
I’m surprised at the lack of comments on this article. As far as I can tell in my limited understanding of the court system, and journalism in general, the release of this list of 24,000 pedophiles is the watershed moment that we are all waiting for. We as a community in the U.S. need to do as much as possible to bring attention to this case and others like it, as well as encouraging victims to come forward and seek justice. It is a long process to bring about the changes needed, or perhaps the downfall of this organization altogether, but we must not lose patience with the courts, or lose heart in general.
Reply
 
 Grace says:

 April 24, 2016 at 2:20 pm
 
Ready 4 to Fade,
I think you have hit the nail on the head. I would say that because WT are so good at dragging things out that they wear the victim down but also everyone else down and they have that never-ending funnel of money that seems to come from the naive & the crooked backing them. It’s just seems so overwhelming at times.
It’s people like the activists on this website and others that keep this thing alive that helps reinvigorate. I hope that they don’t tire out. I’m only spreading the word here in my little town from my doctor to all of my new found friends (just about anyone that will listen) & they apparently are spreading the word too. My (worldly) niece has come on board & has a friend that is doing a journalism piece about xjw’s in Melbourne. So the truth about this criminal organisation is getting out there, it’s just a slow turning big wheel.
Good on you Lloyd, you put up with so much crap from others that get jealous but you seem to keep focussed. Your writers put up with crap too but they seem fight on. Kudos to you all & thank you again for all of your hard work!!!
Reply
 
 
 
 Tara says:

 April 24, 2016 at 6:12 pm
 
I would hope here in Canada a similar thing may happen as it is a Commonwealth country, but so far there isn’t even a ripple.
Reply
 
 
 Grace says:

 April 24, 2016 at 7:55 pm
 
Good to see another case going ahead putting the pressure on the WT.
http://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2016/apr/24/ticker-tough-build-jehovahs-witness-sex-abuse-case/#
Reply
 
 
 Wip it says:

 April 25, 2016 at 9:31 pm
 
I am waiting for more denial from the WT, we had a CO deny it all from the platform, he must know that he was lying to the crowd, they must be getting secret directions from the GB, they can run but they cannot hide, they are getting very vocal on not trusting the internet or the printed word, but the R & F are in a bubble, beyond help,
Reply
 
 
 Jakob says:

 April 26, 2016 at 1:34 pm
 
Turn please from Russian into English if you can. Video reveals the mystery of the Babylonian whore. This video should see everything. The information does not contradict the Bible. Sorry for my English.



Reply
 
 
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