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Why do you think the Witnesses never recanted their testimonies?
Posted: 23 April 2016 07:26 AM [ Ignore ]
TheDogLady
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Personally I think that the witnesses never recanted even to their dying day because telling the truth would have been harder.
Consider all of us at Post mormon or other sites that support those of us who have left.
It has been a difficult journey fraught with family and friend conflict and a constant barage of people trying to "reconvert" us. With this or that.....mostly with "feelings" we have had about the truthfullness of the Gospel.
I think they may have been facing the kind of problems we are experiencing in trying to say publicley what they know to be true.
The only thing any of them would say was that they "saw" the plates through a vision or with their "spiritual" eyes.
What do you think some of the reasons that they didn't recant were?
Neo: "Why do my eyes hurt"
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Neo: “Why do my eyes hurt?”
Morpheus: “Because you’ve never used them”
Posted: 23 April 2016 07:38 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Morethanmo
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I don't think they kept silent because they were ashamed of lying. I think they were genuinely conned. They were probably in induced trance states when Ol' Joe convinced them that they were seeing objects or people. They probably spent their lives hiding their shame behind lies.
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Posted: 23 April 2016 08:02 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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Jon Marshall
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TheDogLady:
Personally I think that the witnesses never recanted even to their dying day because telling the truth would have been harder.
Consider all of us at Post mormon or other sites that support those of us who have left.
It has been a difficult journey fraught with family and friend conflict and a constant barage of people trying to "reconvert" us. With this or that.....mostly with "feelings" we have had about the truthfullness of the Gospel.
I think they may have been facing the kind of problems we are experiencing in trying to say publicley what they know to be true.
The only thing any of them would say was that they "saw" the plates through a vision or with their "spiritual" eyes.
What do you think some of the reasons that they didn't recant were?
Neo: "Why do my eyes hurt"
Morpheus: "Becuase you've never used them"
I agree with you. Did anyone other than "JS" actually see the GP's? Emma, did not even see them. She just felt them.
I think they did not recant because they truly did not see them, just felt and they did not know if it was real or not. JS was the best snakeoil salesman of that era.
As the great quote from Tommy Boy says:
"Your father could sell a ketchup popsicle to a woman in white gloves"-
Same could be said for old JS
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Posted: 23 April 2016 11:41 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
Strong Free & Thankful
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Morethanmo:
I don't think they kept silent because they were ashamed of lying. I think they were genuinely conned. They were probably in induced trance states when Ol' Joe convinced them that they were seeing objects or people. They probably spent their lives hiding their shame behind lies.
It would be embarassing to admit you had been conned that badly same as the GAs today do not want to be seen as being that stupid besides I think they are under so many contracts from the church, they would never be able to own anything. Also, they could have been drugged--did someone mention that? Joseph had an uncle, I believe who was into the mushroom-type drugs--which can produce religious-type hullucinations. I don't know if someone in that state might be able to be led? Joseph Smith would have probably known.
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 23 April 2016 05:04 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
TheDogLady
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Strong Free & Thankful:
Morethanmo:
I don't think they kept silent because they were ashamed of lying. I think they were genuinely conned. They were probably in induced trance states when Ol' Joe convinced them that they were seeing objects or people. They probably spent their lives hiding their shame behind lies.
It would be embarassing to admit you had been conned that badly same as the GAs today do not want to be seen as being that stupid besides I think they are under so many contracts from the church, they would never be able to own anything. Also, they could have been drugged--did someone mention that? Joseph had an uncle, I believe who was into the mushroom-type drugs--which can produce religious-type hullucinations. I don't know if someone in that state might be able to be led? Joseph Smith would have probably known.
Also they lived in a time when visions and faith healings and demon possesion were commonplace. Just think of today's evangelical who has someone place their hand on their heads and says "you are healed" or casting out demons. Why in the last century alone thier were many "exorcisms" And Martin Harris claimed he had a conversation with Jesus as a deer when he was walking down the road.
Relatively easy to believe with the religious ferver taking place at the time.
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Neo: “Why do my eyes hurt?”
Morpheus: “Because you’ve never used them”
Posted: 24 April 2016 08:04 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
finex
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I think the fear of tar & feathers or worse kept them from exposing the hoax they were involved in.
Posted: 24 April 2016 08:16 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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Winyan
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I think it was probably fear. They had taken death oaths and been threatened into obedience by satan. That leaves a mark on your psyche.
Posted: 25 April 2016 03:52 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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Morethanmo:
I don't think they kept silent because they were ashamed of lying. I think they were genuinely conned. They were probably in induced trance states when Ol' Joe convinced them that they were seeing objects or people. They probably spent their lives hiding their shame behind lies.
a long time ago I read some research about plant based drugs used at that time and known to herbalist, Folk medicine.
If you notice they took sacramental wine before they started praying. If you compare the list of effects of those plants and the early mass visions including temple visions. symptoms and duration of visions seems to line up.
Found article
http://www.i4m.com/think/history/holy-ghost.htm
These early Church members sought direct experience with God and believed that Joseph Smith had the power to grant their desires. Confidence in their Prophet was not misplaced. Between 1830 and 1836, under the supervision of Joseph Smith, many early Mormon converts enjoyed heavenly visions and spiritual raptures. However, after Joseph’s death in 1844, the great visionary period of Church history came to an end.
Twenty years later, in 1864, members would ask Church leaders, “why it is that we do not see more angels, have more visions, that we do not see greater and more manifestations of power?”
The mystery seems to center around Joseph Smith himself. According to church historian Richard Bushman, it was Joseph Smith himself that connected converts to heaven by some power that he possessed, a power that remains a mystery to this day.(Bushman, R. L. (2005). Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling. New York: Alfred A. Knopf. P. 560)
Posted: 25 April 2016 07:00 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
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maynardg
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No one was suppose to have seen the GPs, but there are pictures that are shown in primary/sunday school with pinnochio joeand his scribe sitting at a table with the plates in full view of both people -- like they were holding FHE. That was thing that use to bother me along with the photos of pinocchio joe that made him look like a hollywood movie star, yet he was homelier than a dog's hind leg!
IMVHO, the reason the witnesses never recanted there testimonies, just like individuals go on missions when they have significant doubts; stay on their missions even when doubts become even more significant; get married in the holy house of creepy hugs and handshakes still having doubts; remain in the church even after receiving a testamonkey that the morg is built upon the foundation of a stinking pile of HORSESHIT -- PRESSURE -- of the consequence -- a significant one -- being labeled an APOSTATE and being shunned by the ones we love(morgbots are experts at shunning -- make the Amish green with envy at how expert they are!).
Posted: 25 April 2016 03:20 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
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Quartersawn
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Too long to quote all the good parts here, but Mormon Think has great articles on all three 'witnesses' and their beliefs in magic, and the occult.
http://www.mormonthink.com/witnessesweb.htm
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Posted: 25 April 2016 05:31 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
huehuetenango
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TheDogLady:
Personally I think that the witnesses never recanted even to their dying day because telling the truth would have been harder.
Consider all of us at Post mormon or other sites that support those of us who have left.
It has been a difficult journey fraught with family and friend conflict and a constant barage of people trying to "reconvert" us. With this or that.....mostly with "feelings" we have had about the truthfullness of the Gospel.
I think they may have been facing the kind of problems we are experiencing in trying to say publicley what they know to be true.
The only thing any of them would say was that they "saw" the plates through a vision or with their "spiritual" eyes.
What do you think some of the reasons that they didn't recant were?
Neo: "Why do my eyes hurt"
Morpheus: "Becuase you've never used them"
When you speak of their "testimonies" are you talking about the printed statements or other statements?
Posted: 26 April 2016 04:49 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 11 ]
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guywithearrings50
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Like someone mentioned above, I think it was fear. They may have been first "rewarded" for making the statements in the first place (monetary or otherwise), then never recanted because I really believe they felt that Joe Smith would ruin their reputations. Either old Joe or the church organization as a whole. they would be the laughing stock and made to look like fools. At the very least their social reputations would be ruined.
there could be other reasons as well. maybe they were drugged when they were supposedly shown the plates and really believed what they were seeing. someone mentioned that some of the witnesses were into the occult so it would be easy to "persuade" them that the plates were real.
Posted: 27 April 2016 03:46 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 12 ]
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Quartersawn
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Seeing visions, heavenly or previously earthly beings, was farily common in the NE US. People belived the Three Witnesses and supported their story telling, they wanted something to latch on to.
Like many other LDS I wondered why I hadn't seen any heavenly messengers or ancestors. While in the Manti Temple one time I was convinced I saw my dead mother and my brother who died shortly after birth. I would repeat this story and tell relatives what my deceased brother looked like.
After I left the church I came to realize it was just my desire to see something...so I could tell others I had seen something special (and they haven't, neener, neener, neener). Yes, it was a matter of pride.
Perhaps the three witnesses would have been seen as 'less than' if they recanted their stories.
There is some evidence they recanted to some degree in the MormonThink linked above.
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Why would you consider a man a prophet whose morals are worse than your own? Having claimed to commune with deity, be visited by angels and receive revelations, should he not be held to a higher standard? —me
Posted: 27 April 2016 03:52 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 13 ]
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epic
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Just to throw this out there. But, how do we know that the witnesses never recanted their "testimonies"??? It would seem to me that the organization that is claiming that they never recanted has a long history of suppressing and covering up. Why not suppress and cover this up as well?
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Posted: 27 April 2016 05:46 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 14 ]
Hank
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First, they were almost all related to each other in one way or another (Cowdery was JS's cousin). Just look at how many shared the same few last names. They were into magic and occult stuff back then, so were easy to influence in the "spiritual" sense.
The following has no good evidence, just a few claims supposedly made by Palmyra residents: There was a Native American names Henry who was known as a medicine man. Henry and JS hung out quite a bit while Henry stayed in the area for a period of time (a few weeks). Some believe that Henry introduced JS to a plant common in Upstate NY, which when taken, would make people think that they saw angels and Gods and all things spiritual.
Why would some people believe Henry really existed? Becuase the journals of members state that after consuming the sacremental wine, people would start to speak in tongues and have strong religious experiences, giving them their testimonies...and these experiences happened when JS was presiding over sacrament.
And after JS's death, people noticed that no one spoke in tongues anymore. Angels stopped visiting, etc. All that magic simply vanished after JS died....
Posted: 27 April 2016 08:33 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 15 ]
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Silver Girl
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Good question.
I agree that all of the previous comments are good possibilities, including whether it is even true than none of them recanted. As we know...just because we were taught that by the church doesn't mean it is true.
What if it isn't even true that they all testified of it in the first place? At the very least, they were heavily influenced/coerced into it.
I remembered this previous discussion that talks about the signatures, I recommend reading through it (it isn't a long thread):
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/36569/
Also, if they had testified to something that didn't really happen, recanting that testimony would be admitting that they had lied and participated willingly in conning people. They probably didnt want to go there.
I think an important take away here is that we quickly and easily came up with several more likely possible explanations as to why the witnesses never reacanted than "because ormon god revealed it to them and they knew it."
It is amazing how something the church made seem so obvious and incontrovertible is actually very unlikely to have happened that way.
SG
Posted: 27 April 2016 01:01 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 16 ]
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Dovolente
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"A man is only as good as his word." My understanding of the times is that this used to mean a lot more then than it does now.
So if you admitted you were kinda suckered and ended up signing your name to a lie, well... you just showed everyone that you're a rotten untrustworthy scumbag.
On the other hand, if you were hanging out with ruffians and bootleggers and mountain men and other such outcasts of society, it might have earned you some street cred and a spot at the poker table. I'm guessing these guys weren't that type, though.
Posted: 28 April 2016 07:03 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 17 ]
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Tessa
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I think the coffee/wine he gave them prior to, made them hallucinate....so believed that something happened. They couldn't exactly be "clear" as most of it was fuzzy....(like the LSD trips seemed real to those who imbibed.) They were indoctrinated in the worst way...and even when they broke away....they kept getting flashbacks, drug-induced.
Just remember, Emma Smith nearly killed Joseph with his own "special-blend" of coffee she made for him from his stash.
This church is a horror story that just keeps on giving.
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Posted: 28 April 2016 11:20 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 18 ]
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LostInParadise
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I haven't researched this theory to see if it fits the timeline, but it seems plausible that JS abused his positions in both the church and the freemasons to make the witnesses take a blood oath, after which they were convinced they would be killed if they recanted. Even after his death, they would fear their fellow witnesses and possibly others in the know.
Did I just become a conspiracy theorist?
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Posted: 14 May 2016 11:25 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 19 ]
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I think the reason is simply superstition.
In the early part of the 1800's many country people believed in folk magic and in charms and spells. I remember reading both "Huckleberry Finn" and "Tom Sawyer" that probably describe that time frame with reasonable accuracy and the belief that many people had in folk magic.
I think they wanted to believe in Joseph and in their limited view of the world it may have made some sort of sense to them. Remember that Joseph fleeced many people before the founding of the church with his moneydigging activities.
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Posted: 14 May 2016 03:19 PM [ Ignore ]
billking
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There is a new book by author Jack Xander called "Gods and Mormons". It is for sale on Blurb.com. It's a great book that is right in line with this site.
Posted: 15 May 2016 08:54 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
Strong Free & Thankful
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Thanks billking and Welcome to our world!
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
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New Publication
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Why do you think the Witnesses never recanted their testimonies?
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St. Judas the Traitor 1st Ward - Meetup - Sunday, May 15th, 10:00am at Harmons (Draper, UT) - ***New photo at bottom of thread***
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WHY SO SERIOUS!?
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Living in Spirit Prison?
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Top 13 Myths About Former Mormons
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Guilt and Fear ruin relationships
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Jeff Holland in Tempe "furious with people who leave"
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The future of Mormonism?
by Quartersawn
"Empathy Is The Opposite of Utopia" a Possible Explanation for Mormon Empathy Deficit
by Lloyd Dobler
I never got an answer
by Morethanmo
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Jesus Scene illustration in Silent Subversion
Posted: 15 May 2016 05:57 PM [ Ignore ]
formormon
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So after publishing my book, Silent Subversion 1, I hired a local artist, Kiel Parsons from Portland Oregon, to create some illustrations. I think my fellow Post mormons will like the Jesus Scene one.
To see the article about the illustration, follow the link: http://anxietypub.com/the-jesus-scene/
If you just want to see the picture, see below.
Enjoy...
Picture by Kiel Parsons
Posted: 16 May 2016 05:43 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
peace out
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definitely conveys a feeling of oppression and depression.
How much did you have to pay to have something like that drawn?
Posted: 16 May 2016 10:22 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
formormon
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Well I hope the picture didn't make you depressed. I think it gives a different impression. See the article. Kiel might not want me to share the cost, but you can contact him and ask him to give you a quote for a project. His contact information is in the article. He gave me a good deal because he believes in my mission with the books and we have good chat sessions when discussing project details. When searching for an artist, I had quotes up to $1500 for a single piece.
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“The First Vision”- Today on Radio West 11 AM, Repeats at 7 PM
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FIRST INFO RE SPEAKERS FOR EXMORMON FOUNDATION 2016 CONFERENCE!
by Suzyq
Spare the Rod
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Jesus Scene illustration in Silent Subversion
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New Publication
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Why do you think the Witnesses never recanted their testimonies?
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St. Judas the Traitor 1st Ward - Meetup - Sunday, May 15th, 10:00am at Harmons (Draper, UT) - ***New photo at bottom of thread***
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Guilt and Fear ruin relationships
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Jeff Holland in Tempe "furious with people who leave"
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The future of Mormonism?
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"Empathy Is The Opposite of Utopia" a Possible Explanation for Mormon Empathy Deficit
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I never got an answer
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2015 Conference
"LEAVING A LEGACY"
October 16-18
Doubletree Suites
SLC, Utah
Financial Report for 2011 to Date
Financial Report for 2010 to Date
Financial Report for 2009
Twin Falls Newspaper Article
Twin Falls Billboard
Financial Report for 2009 to Date
The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]
Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]
Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]
Summer Schedule
[Southern Utah Pos...]
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/1)
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Coming up May 1’st 2016 - Kristyn Decker to lecture!
[Southern Utah Pos...]
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (4/3)
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Imprompu get-together
[Dead Prophets Soc...]
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (3/6)
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Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series- March 6th, 2016 Author Dave Nelson
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Open House Meetup: 3/19/16
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...]
Train ride and picnic Meetup: 2/27/16
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Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series February 7th, 2016- Joe Rawlins
[Southern Utah Pos...]
SF Bay Area Super Bowl Party (Feb 7)
[San Francisco Bay...]
Jan 10th, 2016-Southern Utah PostMormons will present an outstanding lecture combo
[Southern Utah Pos...]
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by TheDogLady
Book of Mormon Tories
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Why I am a Better Mother
by antipsicótica
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by Barney
Resignation Letter to My Family
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former victim
The Book of Mormon Musical comes to South Carolina!
Swearing Elder
Resignation Letter to My Family
INRETROSPECT
Resignation Letter to My Family
oneanother
Utah County CALM meetup for November
BlackSheep2
FACEBOOK INFO
Crissy
FACEBOOK INFO
Barn
October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
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October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
alvie
Why I am a Better Mother
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SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
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owned
The Mormon Mask
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onendagus
Resignation Letter to My Family
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Resignation Letter to My Family
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Posted: 14 May 2016 06:31 AM [ Ignore ]
Adam C. White
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Chapter 1
Saturday, July 8th, 1995
“Well, do you feel any different?” Brock asked, taking a quick glance at his son before turning back to the sunlit road.
Winston thought for a second before answering, “Not really.”
“Maybe the gravity of it will sink in over the next few days.”
With the chapel getting smaller in the rearview mirror Winston’s baptism was behind them, and with it the eight years his parents spent preparing him for membership in the Mormon Church. Now it felt like every decision he made could affect his salvation. At the moment though, the only decision Winston had to make was simple.
“Where do you want to eat, sweetie?” his mother Kristin asked.
“McDonald’s.”
“Noooooo...” his sister moaned beside him. “He always picks McDonald's! I want to go somewhere nice!”
“Are you sure you don’t want to go anywhere else?” Kristin asked. “We can go to Red Lobster or Olive Garden...”
“I just want McDonald’s!”
It wasn’t for the salty fries or Chicken McNuggets. For a limited time only you could get a Power Ranger toy with the purchase of any Happy Meal. This happened to coincide with the release Mighty Morphin Power Rangers: The Movie, which Winston hadn’t seen yet but hoped to coax his parents into allowing as a belated birthday present.
“Alright buddy,” Brock said. “Whitney, when you get baptized you can pick out where you want to eat, okay?”
She let out an exasperated groan, but didn’t argue any further.
Within minutes they could see the PlayPlace, a colorful maze of tubes within a glass fortress. Winston’s excitement rose with each stoplight they passed. In any moment his collection would be complete.
He already had the Power Siren and Power Com, which adults might call a whistle and bracelet. He traded a kid at school a Duncan yo-yo for the Alien Detector. All that was left was Powermorpher Buckle. It was the coolest one of all, yet had eluded him. Until now.
Once the van settled into the closest parking spot available, Winston told his parents what food he wanted before racing Whitney to the PlayPlace. They kicked off their shoes and dove into the ball pit, becoming engulfed in a sea of plastic. Rising from its depths, they giggled while pelting one another with ammunition.
Soon Brock came into the room holding a tray piled with food. Winston pushed through the obstacles and slipped his dress shoes back on, then sat in the booth next to his dad. Kristin and Whitney joined them.
After dividing up the goods, Brock waited for his family to settle down. Everyone bowed their heads while he led them in prayer. Winston tried to listen, but the proximity of his toy made it hard to focus. An amen resounded throughout the empty room, and Winston opened the box’s golden arches.
The package was within reach now, its label obstructing his view of the contents. He ripped through it, creating a hole large enough to fit his hand into. Winston took out the toy and examined it.
Lord Zedd, with his exposed brain and shiny metal mask, glared back at him from the Alien Detector display. On the side was a dial he could turn to see Ivan Ooze and Rita Repulsa. Winston would know, because he scrolled by them every day since getting the toy. His appetite suddenly diminished.
Before devastation could set in an idea came to him. Whitney sat across from him, shoving fries into her mouth three at a time. He tried to stay calm as he asked, “What toy did you get?”
Whitney’s head tilted as if trying to decipher a strange language. Then she resumed chewing while retrieving the toy. Tiny muscles in her arms contracted as she struggled to open it on her lap. Winston heard a tear and held his breath.
From beneath the table rose the Powermorpher Buckle, clasped within Whitney’s greasy fingers. She pretended to marvel at the contraption, a sleek grey case which held three coins inside, each inscribed with the image of an animal on it. The blue ranger’s wolf was on display, and somewhere beneath it was the white ranger’s falcon, just waiting to be unleashed.
“Can I have it?” he yelled, reaching his hands out.
She recoiled, drawing the toy into her bony chest.
“I’ll trade you this Alien Detector for it!”
Whitney twisted her body away from him and let out a low, steady whine, exposing potatoes halfway through the chewing process.
“Winston, that’s her toy,” Brock said.
“But she only wants it because she knows I do!”
Tears welled up in her eyes, but beneath the shimmer Winston could see amusement. The entire day had revolved around him, and now she found a way to put the spotlight back on her. She capitalized on the attention by quivering her bottom lip.
“That’s enough, Winston! Now eat your food before it gets cold,” Brock said.
Satisfied, Whitney set the toy down and picked up a crooked fry. Her smile revealed a vacant slot in her top row of teeth. Neither Brock nor Kristin seemed to notice her abrupt change in mood.
There was a word for his sister, one that Winston overheard from an older kid on the bus. It was used for all girls who were rude to boys. Winston tried to remember it, but like the toy it was just out of reach.
Whitney’s dangling legs swayed back and forth in a spiteful dance. Her curls bounced with each movement. In one moment she had ruined the most important day of his life. Something inside of Winston snapped. Without thinking he launched his right foot forward, connecting the tip of his shoe to her shin bone.
What followed proved the last cry was an act. Food fell from her mouth as she shrieked in agony, filling the restaurant with the sound of her pain. Winston wondered if he broke the bone, but when she lifted her leg there was only a welt.
“Winston!” his parents shouted in unison. Kristin turned to console Whitney, leaving the discipline to Brock.
“That was very bad! Give me your toy now!” he said, and snatched the Alien Detector away. Winston waited to hear for the rest of his punishment, but Brock was more interested in the well-being of his daughter.
As Whitney wept into her mother’s bosom, Winston realized he could’ve just waited until she lost interest in the toy. She didn’t like Power Rangers, not even the pink one, so the Powermorpher Buckle would’ve eventually become his. Now he might never get it.
No sooner did he realize this when another thought came to him. Maybe it happened when he coveted his sister’s toy, or by not honoring his father when told to eat his food, but certainly no later than when wrath overcame him. At some point during the last minute Winston committed his first sin.
Posted: 16 May 2016 11:24 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Celestial Wedgie
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Well that Winston kid wasted no time in committing his first sin!
I'm curious: is this autobiographical or are you just creating a fiction from what many people recall of their baptism as an 8-year-old?
Posted: 16 May 2016 12:21 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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That is so perfect. Baptism changes NOTHING. Winston was honest enough to admit that he didn't feel any different. One day maybe he'll be honest enough to see what a mindf#ck the church really is.
Committing that first sin - I vividly recall sitting in the middle of a circle of brethren, hands placed upon my head, my father confirming me to the church and giving the gift of the holy ghost and pronouncing such blessings as the spirit dictated at the time... I cracked an eye open and realized that I shouldn't have done that. I thought to myself "Well, there's one sin", and the cycle of guilt and self-loathing had begun. That's all I remember of my confirmation prayer; none of the stuff my father had been "prompted" to say, only that I had already f#cked up. It only got worse, especially as I reached my teenage years and, well, nature took its course and the self-loathing only got worse.
Nice memory...
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Posted: 16 May 2016 12:37 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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Celestial Wedgie
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Matter Unorganized:
That is so perfect. Baptism changes NOTHING. Winston was honest enough to admit that he didn't feel any different. One day maybe he'll be honest enough to see what a mindf#ck the church really is.
Committing that first sin - I vividly recall sitting in the middle of a circle of brethren, hands placed upon my head, my father confirming me to the church and giving the gift of the holy ghost and pronouncing such blessings as the spirit dictated at the time... I cracked an eye open and realized that I shouldn't have done that. I thought to myself "Well, there's one sin", and the cycle of guilt and self-loathing had begun. That's all I remember of my confirmation prayer; none of the stuff my father had been "prompted" to say, only that I had already f#cked up. It only got worse, especially as I reached my teenage years and, well, nature took its course and the self-loathing only got worse.
Nice memory...
What I remember is how heavy the men's hands were and how at least one of them had a tremor. It felt weird. "Weird": that's what I remember. I bet it's almost identical to hearing the whispering of the wobbly small voice.
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Thanks for the slaughter, God
by Strong Free & Thankful
Screaming in the Celestial Room
by Strong Free & Thankful
“The First Vision”- Today on Radio West 11 AM, Repeats at 7 PM
by NickB
FIRST INFO RE SPEAKERS FOR EXMORMON FOUNDATION 2016 CONFERENCE!
by Suzyq
Spare the Rod
by Celestial Wedgie
Jesus Scene illustration in Silent Subversion
by formormon
New Publication
by Strong Free & Thankful
Why do you think the Witnesses never recanted their testimonies?
by Utah Sasquatch
St. Judas the Traitor 1st Ward - Meetup - Sunday, May 15th, 10:00am at Harmons (Draper, UT) - ***New photo at bottom of thread***
by BITE ME
Soon to be ex-mormon Tyler Glenn (of Neon Trees) Trashes Church in New Video
by left2008
There was a knock at the other the last weekend...
by guywithearrings50
An interesting study on Porn
by DenverDude
WHY SO SERIOUS!?
by maynardg
Living in Spirit Prison?
by Celestial Wedgie
Top 13 Myths About Former Mormons
by DenverDude
Guilt and Fear ruin relationships
by Jon Marshall
Jeff Holland in Tempe "furious with people who leave"
by Smitty
The future of Mormonism?
by Quartersawn
"Empathy Is The Opposite of Utopia" a Possible Explanation for Mormon Empathy Deficit
by Lloyd Dobler
I never got an answer
by Morethanmo
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/42295/
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2015 Conference
"LEAVING A LEGACY"
October 16-18
Doubletree Suites
SLC, Utah
Financial Report for 2011 to Date
Financial Report for 2010 to Date
Financial Report for 2009
Twin Falls Newspaper Article
Twin Falls Billboard
Financial Report for 2009 to Date
The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]
Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]
Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]
Summer Schedule
[Southern Utah Pos...]
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/1)
[San Francisco Bay...]
Coming up May 1’st 2016 - Kristyn Decker to lecture!
[Southern Utah Pos...]
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (4/3)
[San Francisco Bay...]
Imprompu get-together
[Dead Prophets Soc...]
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (3/6)
[San Francisco Bay...]
Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series- March 6th, 2016 Author Dave Nelson
[Southern Utah Pos...]
Open House Meetup: 3/19/16
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...]
Train ride and picnic Meetup: 2/27/16
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...]
Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series February 7th, 2016- Joe Rawlins
[Southern Utah Pos...]
SF Bay Area Super Bowl Party (Feb 7)
[San Francisco Bay...]
Jan 10th, 2016-Southern Utah PostMormons will present an outstanding lecture combo
[Southern Utah Pos...]
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by TheDogLady
Book of Mormon Tories
by Chris Sexton
Why I am a Better Mother
by antipsicótica
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by Barney
Resignation Letter to My Family
sam2
Post-mormon Roles
sam2
Post-mormon Roles
former victim
The Book of Mormon Musical comes to South Carolina!
Swearing Elder
Resignation Letter to My Family
INRETROSPECT
Resignation Letter to My Family
oneanother
Utah County CALM meetup for November
BlackSheep2
FACEBOOK INFO
Crissy
FACEBOOK INFO
Barn
October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
Starfleet
October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
alvie
Why I am a Better Mother
by aworkinprogress
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
exmoinaz
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
owned
The Mormon Mask
by Born Free
Las Vegas Meetup--Jazz in the Park Saturday May 10 6:30PM
onendagus
Resignation Letter to My Family
ShadowSage
Resignation Letter to My Family
ShadowSage
Guru Busters
by Flora4
Guru Busters
by Flora4
Resignation Letter to My Family
Hbush1987
Home Our Community
Discussion Forums
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Post-Mormon Chapters
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Calm of N. Davis County and Weber County Post-Mormons
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Calm of Utah County Post-Mormons
Dead Prophets Society Post-Mormons
Long Valley Post-Mormons
Millard County Post-Mormons
New Hope Post-Mormons of Weber Co.
Salt Lake City Post-Mormons
Sanpete County Post-Mormons
Southern Utah Post Mormon Association
Uintah Basin Post-Mormons
USU Post-Mormons
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FIRST INFO RE SPEAKERS FOR EXMORMON FOUNDATION 2016 CONFERENCE!
Posted: 15 May 2016 01:01 PM [ Ignore ]
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Suzyq
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The Exmormon Foundation is touching base with our "constituency" to remind you that the dates for this year's Conference are October 7-9, 2016!
Jeremy Runnells (most recent exmo martyr) -- and Pat Bagley (popular Salt Lake Tribune cartoonist and satirist of all things Mormon) will be two of the speakers that weekend, and we will also hear from the owners and excellent writers of the blog "Zelph on the Shelf"! In addition, two other VERY interesting speakers will be on the program, and you will be able to read that info on our web site in about a week.
So...get your calendars out and mark those dates. We hope to have the entire program, plus all registration and hotel information available on the web site by next Friday, the 21st. We will let you know when it's all up. You won't want to miss what we have in store for you!
Sue Emmett
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V.P. Exmormon Foundation
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Posted: 16 May 2016 12:40 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Celestial Wedgie
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Suzy, thanks for letting us know.
And thanks, too, for the work you do that is less obvious than a conference.
Posted: 16 May 2016 01:40 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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Suzyq
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And thank you. I appreciate it.
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“The First Vision”- Today on Radio West 11 AM, Repeats at 7 PM
by NickB
FIRST INFO RE SPEAKERS FOR EXMORMON FOUNDATION 2016 CONFERENCE!
by Suzyq
Spare the Rod
by Celestial Wedgie
Jesus Scene illustration in Silent Subversion
by formormon
New Publication
by Strong Free & Thankful
Why do you think the Witnesses never recanted their testimonies?
by Utah Sasquatch
St. Judas the Traitor 1st Ward - Meetup - Sunday, May 15th, 10:00am at Harmons (Draper, UT) - ***New photo at bottom of thread***
by BITE ME
Soon to be ex-mormon Tyler Glenn (of Neon Trees) Trashes Church in New Video
by left2008
There was a knock at the other the last weekend...
by guywithearrings50
An interesting study on Porn
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WHY SO SERIOUS!?
by maynardg
Living in Spirit Prison?
by Celestial Wedgie
Top 13 Myths About Former Mormons
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Guilt and Fear ruin relationships
by Jon Marshall
Jeff Holland in Tempe "furious with people who leave"
by Smitty
The future of Mormonism?
by Quartersawn
"Empathy Is The Opposite of Utopia" a Possible Explanation for Mormon Empathy Deficit
by Lloyd Dobler
I never got an answer
by Morethanmo
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/42297/
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2015 Conference
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“The First Vision”- Today on Radio West 11 AM, Repeats at 7 PM
Posted: 16 May 2016 05:43 AM [ Ignore ]
skeptic
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Joseph Smith claimed that God and Jesus appeared to him in 1820 to tell him all churches were wrong, which led him to found the Mormon faith. Late LDS President Gordon B. Hinckley once said the Church’s “whole strength rests on the validity of that vision.” Smith told multiple versions over the years though, and critics say discrepancies are proof he made it all up. Monday, we’re talking about the “First Vision,” the role it’s played in Church history and what it reveals about Mormonism today.
Guests:
John Turner is a historian of American religion who teaches at George Mason University in Virginia. He's the author of Brigham Young: Pioneer Prophet [Indiebound|Amazon|Audible] and a new book The Mormon Jesus: A Biography [Indiebound|Amazon]
Patrick Mason is the Howard W. Hunter Chair of Mormon Studies at Claremont Graduate University in California.
Turner and Mason are co-authors of a forthcoming book called Out of Obscurity: Mormonism Since 1945
Listen live on Radio West website: http://radiowest.kuer.org/post/first-vision
11 AM, repeats at 7 PM, then available via podcast.
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For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.” - John 3:20, KJV
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Each of us is a prisoner if we live in a world without wonder and curiosity, and we must be willing to explore the world of ideas if we want to be free. Marietta McCarty explaining the meaning of Plato’s Allegory of the Cave.
Posted: 16 May 2016 05:32 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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NickB
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I listened to it, but what really amazed me is that not once did anyone ever raise the question of why we're seriously discussing a story that is completely devoid of any corroborating evidence, filled with sufficient contradictions as to cast severe doubt on its veracity, and above all, told by a person with a history of telling whoppers, from a family of whopper-tellers, and in a society where stories about receiving religious "visions" were commonplace.
Why didn't anyone say, "What is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without discussion."
The mind boggles.
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Thanks for the slaughter, God
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Screaming in the Celestial Room
by Strong Free & Thankful
“The First Vision”- Today on Radio West 11 AM, Repeats at 7 PM
by NickB
FIRST INFO RE SPEAKERS FOR EXMORMON FOUNDATION 2016 CONFERENCE!
by Suzyq
Spare the Rod
by Celestial Wedgie
Jesus Scene illustration in Silent Subversion
by formormon
New Publication
by Strong Free & Thankful
Why do you think the Witnesses never recanted their testimonies?
by Utah Sasquatch
St. Judas the Traitor 1st Ward - Meetup - Sunday, May 15th, 10:00am at Harmons (Draper, UT) - ***New photo at bottom of thread***
by BITE ME
Soon to be ex-mormon Tyler Glenn (of Neon Trees) Trashes Church in New Video
by left2008
There was a knock at the other the last weekend...
by guywithearrings50
An interesting study on Porn
by DenverDude
WHY SO SERIOUS!?
by maynardg
Living in Spirit Prison?
by Celestial Wedgie
Top 13 Myths About Former Mormons
by DenverDude
Guilt and Fear ruin relationships
by Jon Marshall
Jeff Holland in Tempe "furious with people who leave"
by Smitty
The future of Mormonism?
by Quartersawn
"Empathy Is The Opposite of Utopia" a Possible Explanation for Mormon Empathy Deficit
by Lloyd Dobler
I never got an answer
by Morethanmo
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/42299/
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2015 Conference
"LEAVING A LEGACY"
October 16-18
Doubletree Suites
SLC, Utah
Financial Report for 2011 to Date
Financial Report for 2010 to Date
Financial Report for 2009
Twin Falls Newspaper Article
Twin Falls Billboard
Financial Report for 2009 to Date
The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]
Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]
Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]
Summer Schedule
[Southern Utah Pos...]
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/1)
[San Francisco Bay...]
Coming up May 1’st 2016 - Kristyn Decker to lecture!
[Southern Utah Pos...]
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (4/3)
[San Francisco Bay...]
Imprompu get-together
[Dead Prophets Soc...]
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (3/6)
[San Francisco Bay...]
Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series- March 6th, 2016 Author Dave Nelson
[Southern Utah Pos...]
Open House Meetup: 3/19/16
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...]
Train ride and picnic Meetup: 2/27/16
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...]
Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series February 7th, 2016- Joe Rawlins
[Southern Utah Pos...]
SF Bay Area Super Bowl Party (Feb 7)
[San Francisco Bay...]
Jan 10th, 2016-Southern Utah PostMormons will present an outstanding lecture combo
[Southern Utah Pos...]
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by TheDogLady
Book of Mormon Tories
by Chris Sexton
Why I am a Better Mother
by antipsicótica
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by Barney
Resignation Letter to My Family
sam2
Post-mormon Roles
sam2
Post-mormon Roles
former victim
The Book of Mormon Musical comes to South Carolina!
Swearing Elder
Resignation Letter to My Family
INRETROSPECT
Resignation Letter to My Family
oneanother
Utah County CALM meetup for November
BlackSheep2
FACEBOOK INFO
Crissy
FACEBOOK INFO
Barn
October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
Starfleet
October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
alvie
Why I am a Better Mother
by aworkinprogress
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
exmoinaz
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
owned
The Mormon Mask
by Born Free
Las Vegas Meetup--Jazz in the Park Saturday May 10 6:30PM
onendagus
Resignation Letter to My Family
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Resignation Letter to My Family
ShadowSage
Guru Busters
by Flora4
Guru Busters
by Flora4
Resignation Letter to My Family
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Screaming in the Celestial Room
Posted: 14 May 2016 06:28 AM [ Ignore ]
Adam C. White
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by Adam C. White
Chapter 1
Saturday, March 30th, 1985
Holding back tears that threatened to dive down his face, Simon Stone sat on a two seat sofa in the most luxurious part of a Mormon temple. Head bowed to hide his emotions from Brother Costner, the man sitting beside him as an escort, Simon reflected upon the bizarre ceremony they just went through - the endowment. In it participants are washed and anointed, put on special clothing, make covenants, and are given the gestures and keywords that will enable them to one day pass the angels guarding heaven. Then they can enter a lavishly adorned area that represents heaven itself - the celestial room - where God’s divine presence can be felt.
Thinking about how repulsive that claim was now that he was there was too much to handle, and Simon shoved the thought away lest the tears fall. Nineteen years old and a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints since he was twelve, this was one of the final steps he must take to become a full time missionary. Soon he was supposed to attend the Missionary Training Center in Provo, Utah, then preach the gospel in Boise, Idaho and the surrounding area for two years. But those plans were in limbo now.
“Do you have any questions?” Brother Costner asked in a hushed tone. The sudden inquiry stopped the train of thoughts racing through Simon’s head, and for a moment there was quiet. It didn’t last. A list of questions came to mind. He tried sifting through them for an appropriate response, but they came at him too fast, like a mob of reporters shouting over one another to get the scoop:
Why are all these handshakes and passwords necessary to enter heaven? If you live a good life does it really matter what knuckle you place your thumb on and what that’s called?
What’s the point of having everyone stand in a circle and chant ‘pay lay ale’ while the women veil their faces?
Why must you swear you’d rather have your throat, chest, and bowels slashed open than reveal what took place here today? Is the church threatening its members into silence?
Don’t you think the time spent watching a video with so much screen time for Satan would be better spent volunteering at an orphanage or a nursing home?
How much does it cost to build these temples? Wouldn’t that money be better spent feeding the poor?
Simon looked at Brother Costner’s face, which shared none of his concerns. Brother Costner, or William to those outside the church, had picked up Simon and two missionaries granted a rare break from their work, and drove them all here. When Simon’s eyes met his, dark brown and brimming with tranquility, he couldn’t help but feel pity, and asked the least explosive question he could muster. “Am I allowed to write my initials on the garment tags?”
Underwear and undershirts with symbolic markings sewn on them, garments are worn at all times from the endowment forward as a reminder of covenants made in the temple. William’s brow furrowed, then he began to speak. Though his lips moved and sound came out Simon didn’t comprehend a single word of it, staring a thousand yards past him.
He didn’t notice when the missionaries sat on the sofa across from him, or when a few members from his ward entered the room. He didn’t want to see or be seen by them. To look up and exchange smiles would be condoning this religious charade, which supplanted a spiritual experience with creepy live action role playing. They all looked ridiculous in these outfits, with robes and slippers, fig leaf patterned aprons and oversized baker hats that looked more appropriate for Halloween than heaven.
Simon pictured himself dressed like this at the pearly gates, giving the angels the first keyword he received today and them howling with laughter before turning him away. The image gave him a strange feeling of déjà vu. At first he thought he was mistaken, that nothing about this scenario could seem familiar. Then tears welled up again as he remembered.
Shortly before joining the church Simon went through a class clown phase, where his only goal in life was to make people laugh. One day he and some friends somehow got onto bashing each other’s names. If yours was a diminutive form or even had one, like Mike or Michael, you were cast out from the group. In the end he was one of the only kids left. It was the dumbest joke in the world, which made it even funnier, but life would get the last laugh on Simon.
This morning at the beginning of the ceremony the first keyword he received was a new name. First he stood in a cubicle, completely naked save a white poncho that was open on both sides. The officiator, an elderly man with beige teeth and sour breath, dipped his fingers in oil and touched various parts of Simon’s body to anoint him as a king and priest unto God. It was uncomfortable, especially when the man grazed his trembling fingertips on the side of Simon’s pelvic region to anoint the loins, which Simon almost backed away from. Then the old man helped Simon put on his garments and gave him the new name - Elijah.
Seeing that group of kids again and this time not making the cut in their silly name game isn’t what bothered Simon. It was seeing the one in front of them dying with laughter. He had pale skin, smooth blonde hair, and a smile that hid the sadness in his eyes well. This little one didn’t know what impact being fatherless would have on his life, and how that would drive him to seek his Heavenly Father with devotion unmatched among his peers.
Through a glittering veil of tears Simon saw himself, before taking the path that would lead him to this godforsaken room. He wanted to go back through time and warn that boy of what was to come, but he couldn’t. Even though Simon was screaming on the inside there was nothing he could do except remain seated, physically drained and spiritually raped.
About fifteen minutes had passed since their group came into the celestial room, and members of the ward signaled to each other that it was time to leave. William stood up and motioned for Simon to follow. He did, staying one step behind William like a frightened puppy with its mother, eyes pointing down to the plush carpet the whole way. Before exiting he lifted his head and looked back.
The chandelier took center stage, a thousand crystal raindrops forming one giant cone, hovering above a marble table. Tall white walls were divided by frosted glass windows, which glowed from the morning light. Every piece of furniture had a replica on the other side of the room including two large mirrors which faced each other, creating a recursive image that stretched to infinity. To the Mormons that was a metaphor for eternity. To Simon it was just an illusion.
After changing back into their suits, Simon, William, and the missionaries were almost to the car when Brother Forrester caught up to them. “A group of us were going through again if you wanted to come along,” he said. The endowment is first done for yourself, then every time after that as proxy for those who have died without receiving it.
The pitch was made to William, who turned to Simon and asked if he wanted to. Simon couldn’t believe his ears, but pretended to consider the offer before answering, “I’m so hungry, I really need to get something to eat.” While many members were content with skipping breakfast and calling that a fast, he was on his 25th hour without food or water. William was probably fasting too as he didn’t argue with that logic, but flashed a grateful smile for the offer. Back to the temple Brother Forrester went.
They got into the car and onto the interstate. It was silent except for the road rumbling beneath them until William asked, “Well where do you guys wanna eat?” After deciding on a Taco Bell off the next exit they parked and went in.
The missionaries, Elder Butler and Elder Alley, were almost identical in appearance - crew cuts, clean shaven, white and lanky. One might struggle to describe a difference between them. For Elder Butler it was his long nose. For Elder Alley his suave facial features suggested he could be the lead singer in a boy band. He was also friendlier, asking Simon as they stood waiting in line, “So are you nervous about leaving for your mission soon?”
That was the last thing Simon wanted to think about. Given the faith shaking experience he just went through he supposed he should be nervous, but for now he just felt numb in its aftermath. “No, not really” he said, forcing the corners of his mouth upward.
William was kind enough to foot the bill for all four of them. Sitting across from each other at two wobbly tables placed together, they waited for their orders. That moment was almost quieter than in the temple.
Simon expected one of them to say something, anything, about the endowment. Not apologize or reenact it. Not even crack a joke to ease the tension. Just acknowledge that it happened. Instead, nothing. Even though the others were veterans at this thing, the mood among them was like someone had died. Whether they knew it or not, they were right. Elijah was dead.
A woman behind the register called out their order number, and Elder Alley brought the tray to them. In between bites the missionaries asked William about his job and noted the changing weather. Eating tacos and making small talk. Masquerading as normal people in sheep’s clothing, but wearing garments underneath, reminding them not to violate the covenants they made or else judgment awaits.
Part of Simon wanted to forget about what happened and play along like it was no big deal. Then a still small voice seemed to whisper to him, “Remember, remember!” It felt like the words pierced his soul. After that he couldn’t forget.
Once the shock wore off the only thing Simon Stone felt was anger. He swore in his wrath that he would never go back to the temple. Little did he know he would go back - one year later - for vengeance.
<!--EndFragment-->
Posted: 15 May 2016 02:41 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Quartersawn
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Well said.
The temple is nothing but to induce mind-numbing control, under the guise of worship.
I love the description, Spiritually raped.... and you can't talk about it to anyone, sworn to secrecy by the perp.
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Why would you consider a man a prophet whose morals are worse than your own? Having claimed to commune with deity, be visited by angels and receive revelations, should he not be held to a higher standard? —me
Posted: 15 May 2016 11:19 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
peace out
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Ok Adam
We need chapter two.
Went through in 1984 and remember it being very weird I'm wanting to run out when we got to the penalties phase. Really interested how you got revenge
Posted: 15 May 2016 05:55 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
Strong Free & Thankful
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Quartersawn:
Well said.
The temple is nothing but to induce mind-numbing control, under the guise of worship.
I love the description, Spiritually raped.... and you can't talk about it to anyone, sworn to secrecy by the perp.
Couldn't agree more--being made to take an oath of having our throats slit, being disemboweled if we talked about the secret stuff is spiritual rape. And yes, just like a real pervert--its our secret. Don't tell anyone.
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 16 May 2016 12:35 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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Matter Unorganized
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Very close to home. The overriding sentiment I had when I went through in 1980 was how weird it was. And then how utterly void of meaning the celestial room was. Is that mormon heaven? Just people standing there with nothing to do except wait for someone else in their party to get through the veil? Then what? Nothingness? What a rip-off!
The only thing that got me through it was the thought that my friends had done it, my parents, grandparents, aunts and uncles had done it, so I had to do it too. PEER PRESSURE! Funny how the church teaches the youth not to give in to peer pressure, yet that is EXACTLY the tool they use to get kids to comply, go on missions, marry in the temple and start popping out mormon babies. C'mon, be valiant, LIKE YOUR FRIENDS!!!
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You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler
Posted: 16 May 2016 12:40 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
peace out
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Matter Unorganized:
Very close to home. The overriding sentiment I had when I went through in 1980 was how weird it was. And then how utterly void of meaning the celestial room was. Is that mormon heaven? Just people standing there with nothing to do except wait for someone else in their party to get through the veil? Then what? Nothingness? What a rip-off!
The only thing that got me through it was the thought that my friends had done it, my parents, grandparents, aunts and uncles had done it, so I had to do it too. PEER PRESSURE! Funny how the church teaches the youth not to give in to peer pressure, yet that is EXACTLY the tool they use to get kids to comply, go on missions, marry in the temple and start popping out mormon babies. C'mon, be valiant, LIKE YOUR FRIENDS!!!
Now that is Funny and true.
Posted: 17 May 2016 08:26 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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Dovolente
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Thanks for sharing your writing! You captured the mood very well.
Even though I was an obedient sheep at the time of my own endwoments and didn't let myself get too weirded out, it was still freakin' weird. :)
Posted: 17 May 2016 05:54 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
Strong Free & Thankful
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And be valiant like your family. It makes sense to me that one reason the GAs do not leave when they find out it is all a fraud is they were chosen to be GAs partly because the have a family who will keep them in. Bet you.
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
‹‹ An interesting study on Porn Spare the Rod ››
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Thanks for the slaughter, God
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Screaming in the Celestial Room
by Strong Free & Thankful
“The First Vision”- Today on Radio West 11 AM, Repeats at 7 PM
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Thanks for the slaughter, God
Posted: 22 April 2016 03:00 PM [ Ignore ]
Kerouac
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Joined 2014-05-13
You wouldn't imagine a silly little thing like lambs blood could make a big sword-wielding angel piss himself, but then you're like, "oh right, it's religion, stop trying to make sense of it."
I was reminded, tonight at sundown begins Passover for our Jewish friends. Don't worry if you already made plans, it lasts a week. Cause really, you need a good eight days to pay homage to God for wholesale killing the thousands of first-born children of your former Egyptian captors. I like to envision some Egyptian siblings were like, "golly, I'm sad he's gone but he was kinda a prick."
If only the Egyptians got that memo the Destroying Angel turns into quivering piss at the sight of lamb's blood, and smeared some on their doorframe, which is unquestionably how all self respecting sword-hacking angels choose to enter a room, then all of history may have been altered, especially for lambs!
Apologies if my signature cynicism is overly ripe. Passover is a subtle reminder for me of the comparative values associated with an emotional-led belief in mysticism versus a cerebral-led zest for critical thinking and scientific evidence. I truly don't believe one way is greater than the other. Both Provide a form of peace to it's disciples. Not all people will ever feel the need to question their myths and ferry tales and butt their head against convention. Mostly because it requires courage to move outside what's comfortable. You all have exhibited this courage and I'm proud to find myself in such company!
Posted: 23 April 2016 11:57 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Kerouac:
You wouldn't imagine a silly little thing like lambs blood could make a big sword-wielding angel piss himself, but then you're like, "oh right, it's religion, stop trying to make sense of it."
I was reminded, tonight at sundown begins Passover for our Jewish friends. Don't worry if you already made plans, it lasts a week. Cause really, you need a good eight days to pay homage to God for wholesale killing the thousands of first-born children of your former Egyptian captors. I like to envision some Egyptian siblings were like, "golly, I'm sad he's gone but he was kinda a prick."
If only the Egyptians got that memo the Destroying Angel turns into quivering piss at the sight of lamb's blood, and smeared some on their doorframe, which is unquestionably how all self respecting sword-hacking angels choose to enter a room, then all of history may have been altered, especially for lambs!
Apologies if my signature cynicism is overly ripe. Passover is a subtle reminder for me of the comparative values associated with an emotional-led belief in mysticism versus a cerebral-led zest for critical thinking and scientific evidence. I truly don't believe one way is greater than the other. Both Provide a form of peace to it's disciples. Not all people will ever feel the need to question their myths and ferry tales and butt their head against convention. Mostly because it requires courage to move outside what's comfortable. You all have exhibited this courage and I'm proud to find myself in such company!
Kerouac,
We are proud to find ourselves in your company as well! One thing that has always been a red flag for me is the way religions--who claim ultimate goodness--are so uncaring and even cruel to animals. Joseph Smith slit dogs throats and sheep's throats in his teenage money digging days. I was thinking today that I would never want anything to do with a god who required a sacrifice of an innocent animal to pay for a human's sin. I can find millions of humans who have better character than that mean god. I love the way people are beginning to progress past religions, which are full of both goodness and evil. Why were we so stupid for so long????????
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 23 April 2016 03:10 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
leftasteen
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Your ripe cynicism is really just IQ rearing it's ugly head.
How dare you question concepts like "God's chosen people"? "Infidels"? "The Righteous" and "the cursed.'
How dare you question all the wars fought in God's name?
How dare you doubt all the children "brides" taken in the name of religion?
You heathen!! God will smite you down!!
Posted: 24 April 2016 07:24 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
Free2Live
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The priests and temple workers lived off of the believers that brought their animals to be sacrificed upon the altar of throat cutting. Like the religious corporations of today the sheep in fear for their lives pray pay and obey. Instead of divvying up the fatling best first born of the herds we kept up the delusion in the form of time talent energy, tithes and other financial offerings. In times past, followers fattened up the leaders just as well as it continues now. Thou shalt not kill... unless the churches get to reap the best part of the butchery. Oh, and yes thou shalt not kill unless you command danite or council of fifty forces. Body guards and killers for bff's keep the splatter off of the leaders garments. There is so much to be inferred and methodologically attached to slaughter. Respect for human kind or earthly creation? Hell no. Just worship the controllers pulling the levers and strings behind the curtain.
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One is as committed into testimony as much as they pay into the belief in dollars, time, talent and energy. Afterall, it has to be true once you have signed the lifetime subscription and you have a track record to defend.
Posted: 28 April 2016 06:18 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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FreeLive:
The priests and temple workers lived off of the believers that brought their animals to be sacrificed upon the altar of throat cutting. Like the religious corporations of today the sheep in fear for their lives pray pay and obey. Instead of divvying up the fatling best first born of the herds we kept up the delusion in the form of time talent energy, tithes and other financial offerings. In times past, followers fattened up the leaders just as well as it continues now. Thou shalt not kill... unless the churches get to reap the best part of the butchery. Oh, and yes thou shalt not kill unless you command danite or council of fifty forces. Body guards and killers for bff's keep the splatter off of the leaders garments. There is so much to be inferred and methodologically attached to slaughter. Respect for human kind or earthly creation? Hell no. Just worship the controllers pulling the levers and strings behind the curtain.
You do have a way with words--Free2Live. Very true.
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 13 May 2016 06:52 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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DenverDude
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I'm not for animal cruelty, but I eat meat and use animal products. The kosher method of killing animals is one of the fastest and most humane methods to do so (relatively speaking). It would be a step up if some of the slaughter houses changed over to that method if some of you knew how things are done now in some places.
And there isn't a ton of evidence that the passover was even an actual thing historically speaking. So whatever religious traditions people have about the event, you're getting upset over something that might not have happened in the first place, and if it did, happened aeons ago. It's not he weirdest thing people did, or still do, to ward off bad stuff. Personally, I'd be more critical of the slavery piece and murdering the first born children then animal blood.
Posted: 17 May 2016 05:59 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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If we are to survive as a planet, we may have to become more compassionate to animals than "god" ever was. I think this realization may be coming pretty fast.
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 18 May 2016 07:53 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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son of perdition
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I hate to be the one to defend religion, but science has been just as cruel with its' treatment of animals. How many animals have been abused and killed in the name of science. Science has been good for creating modern devices that make life better for humans. So far science has pressed the farming of animals into a factory enterprise. This is far uglier than smearing lambs blood on a door frame. Science with its' inventions has pressed the earth to point that we may completely destroy it. We have compartmentalized the earth to the point that Lions and Elephants have to live on reservations like the natives of our country and most other countries as well. We have fenced and paved and buiilt to the point of drasically effecting every ecosystem on the planet. Science may well finish what the Judea Christians started. The apocalyptic ending of the planet.
What about all the human lab rats? Science has taken advantage of prisoners and the less fortunate to use for their experiments. I watched a woman who was diagnosed with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome give up her life to science by taking all sorts of experimental medication so science could see the effect. She died a slow and painful death.
Science is used to create military weapons on a nuclear scale. For all the good science does there is a dark side. Religion has not been all evil as much as I lowth it.
Posted: 18 May 2016 07:08 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
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son of perdition:
I hate to be the one to defend religion, but science has been just as cruel with its' treatment of animals. How many animals have been abused and killed in the name of science. Science has been good for creating modern devices that make life better for humans. So far science has pressed the farming of animals into a factory enterprise. This is far uglier than smearing lambs blood on a door frame. Science with its' inventions has pressed the earth to point that we may completely destroy it. We have compartmentalized the earth to the point that Lions and Elephants have to live on reservations like the natives of our country and most other countries as well. We have fenced and paved and buiilt to the point of drasically effecting every ecosystem on the planet. Science may well finish what the Judea Christians started. The apocalyptic ending of the planet.
What about all the human lab rats? Science has taken advantage of prisoners and the less fortunate to use for their experiments. I watched a woman who was diagnosed with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome give up her life to science by taking all sorts of experimental medication so science could see the effect. She died a slow and painful death.
Science is used to create military weapons on a nuclear scale. For all the good science does there is a dark side. Religion has not been all evil as much as I lowth it.
This is very true. I have been protesting science hurting animals since I was a teenager. Of course religion has not been all bad, however, as someone wise said--something like--before you tell me all the good your religion has done, we need to subtract all the harm it has caused. In my world, my life, my family--religion has not been worth it. If religion had not put science back perhaps 1,000 years in the dark ages, we might be so advanced that we would not be even wanting to experiment on animals.
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
‹‹ What might the Church look like in the future? Why do you think the Witnesses never recanted their testimonies? ››
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Thanks for the slaughter, God
by Strong Free & Thankful
Screaming in the Celestial Room
by Strong Free & Thankful
“The First Vision”- Today on Radio West 11 AM, Repeats at 7 PM
by NickB
FIRST INFO RE SPEAKERS FOR EXMORMON FOUNDATION 2016 CONFERENCE!
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by Celestial Wedgie
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by BITE ME
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by left2008
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by guywithearrings50
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by maynardg
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by Quartersawn
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by Lloyd Dobler
I never got an answer
by Morethanmo
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/42257/
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