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I cringe when I think about the talks I gave.
by James Mixon 11 days ago 28 Replies latest 10 days ago   watchtower bible
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James Mixon
James Mixon 11 days ago

You brothers who gave talks do you thinks about the crap you spoke from the platform.
Thirty years old, no knowledge what so ever of the world we live in, barely making the grade
to graduate from high school, a year and half in JC college and now with schooling of JW higher
education I thought I was a hell of a speaker. Half of the time I had no idea what I was talking about.
The outline provided by GB didn't leave room for research on the topic, Evolution no idea, dates for
the end time ( like a deer in headlights), marriage (I was dealing with my own problems).
I feel so embarrass when I think about that time. The Wt makes a person full of themselves.....
 +12 / -0
Anders Andersen
Anders Andersen 11 days ago

This is the Dunning-Kruger effect...

 +6 / -0
xjwsrock
xjwsrock 11 days ago

Yeah I would really speak with conviction from the platform. I would wonder though, as I noticed some of the reaction in the audience, why weren't more people moved by what I was saying? I was talking about our love for God and how lives were involved yada yada. Now I know...
Now I think back and feel sympathy for the "awake" people in the audience or the exhausted people that had to deal with all my idealistic preachiness.
I hate those young know-it-all idiots now.
 +5 / -0
ttdtt
ttdtt 11 days ago
Been there done that.
 +1 / -0
ttdtt
ttdtt 11 days ago

Anders - wow that describes every elder in my congregation!

The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which relatively unskilled persons suffer illusory superiority, mistakenly assessing their ability to be much higher than it really is.
 +6 / -0
Anders Andersen
Anders Andersen 11 days ago

@Ttdtt:
It describes almost any elder in any congregation.
It describes almost every Jdub.
It described me when I was still in, thinking I knew so much about God, the Bible, and science. I'm still baffled by the sheer ignorance that presented itself as expertise.
There is a reason the GB and regular JW trudge on....and this is it. If they would be aware of how little they actually know, they'd cry their heart out.
The few who know they don't know jack (like the guys that wrote the Insight books) either leave or kill their own minds with increasing zeal just to silence their inner voice saying "WTF ARE YOU DOING!"
 +2 / -0
compound complex
compound complex 11 days ago

Likewise, our supposed authority granted by Scripture put us out there as a 'theatrical spectacle to men and angels.' I am a ham and loved being special.
Jehovah used us to shake up the arrogant of the world, those who had already found paradise; He used us to comfort those 'who were sighing and crying' . . .
He did, didn't He?
CC
 +4 / -0
James Mixon
James Mixon 11 days ago

That's why it's so taxing with JW family members, at times you want to cry out, you
don't know sh---t.... But you understand their mindset you shake your head and think,
they no not what they teach.
 +6 / -0
kairos
kairos 11 days ago

I have file on my computer that contain ALL of my talks that I have prepared over the years.
I don't have what it takes to review them.
Too painful.
 +10 / -0
compound complex
compound complex 11 days ago

"One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision." --Bertrand Russell
[link provided by Anders Andersen]
 +4 / -0

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I cringe when I think about the talks I gave.
by James Mixon 11 days ago 28 Replies latest 10 days ago   watchtower bible
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James Mixon
James Mixon 11 days ago

kairos: "Too painful" LOL... I remember a talk on the book of Daniel, Holy sh---t. I wonder have they
scrap that outline, 1970's....
 +2 / -0
DisArmed
DisArmed 11 days ago

"I feel so embarras when I think about that time." - James Mixon
JM,

Don't be too hard on yourself, we all thought we knew more than we did.
 +3 / -0
James Mixon
James Mixon 11 days ago

Thanks DisArmed. Today if I speak in front of two or more people, panic attack I may
say something stupid. LOL
 +2 / -0
compound complex
compound complex 11 days ago

"I would really speak with conviction from the platform. I would wonder though, as I noticed some of the reaction in the audience, why weren't more people moved by what I was saying? I was talking about our love for God and how lives were involved."
-- xjwsrock
I was Field Service Overseer and made myself available almost any day of the week. Included in my duties was visiting each book study group once a month and giving a pep talk, followed by field service on the weekend.
When I finally burnt out (working full time, buying a house, raising children, Theocratic activities, etc.) I could understand a little better why some sheep bleated but did not follow the leader. It wasn't all bad, of course. There were always those who kept the ball rolling, their being 'eaten up by the zeal of Jehovah.'
I used to be.
CC
 +5 / -0
James Mixon
James Mixon 11 days ago
Anders Andersen:Thanks for Dunning-Kruger effect article, interesting research.
 +2 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 10 days ago

Oh yes!
Great thread...
We were so "Proud of the Privilege" of giving talks...that were in reality just a parroting of information that we could not vary from..
Oh sure, we probably came up with some illustrations we thought were really great...
But we were the classic "Big Fish in very Small Goldfish Bowls"
 +3 / -0
eyeuse2badub
eyeuse2badub 10 days ago

Yea I was a pompous ass also. That was the way we were suppose to be, right? Imitate the CO's and DO's who were all pompous asses. 2 decades of being a prominent speaker in the circuit and what a fool I was.
Some of the crap that I preached from the platform makes me sick. I'm not too sure that I believed it even then, but, being a good dub required following the 'company' line (of BS). Too bad, too bad! Mia copa!
just saying!
eyeuse2badub
 +1 / -0
daringhart13
daringhart13 10 days ago

You just hit a nerve.
I was the 'go to' speaker for everything in the circuit. Whether public talks or local needs.....I really knew how to 'yank the heart strings'..........sometimes I just sit back and laugh at the thought of it all. All those endless nights coming up with the next, heart rending illustration ....... had to get people shedding tears!
So absurd. So incredibly absurd.
 +4 / -0
wozza
wozza 10 days ago

As I started out giving talks I would follow the outline to the letter not thinking too much about what I was actually saying or citing because of nerves .
Over time I got better and eventually started to hear myself speak ,less nerves .
Then confidence started to appear and I would start to speak "extemperaniously" as they say.
In time I found it harder and harder to speak the outline without thinking that this or that point was pretty lame ,and then include my stuff I wanted to get across. But in time I found it harder and harder to find material that was honest that fitted in with WTS BS and with the outlines the WTS gave me .
I was glad when I stepped down , my conscience was mine again.
 +3 / -0
Phizzy
Phizzy 10 days ago

I was thrown in at the deep end, never having given a Public Talk, my C.O (COBE) informed me on a Sunday morning that he had made a mistake in dates, and I was due to give a talk that Afternoon in a nearby Congregation.
I was 21. I went home and "prepared" it, and gave it that afternoon, I winged it with a lot of my own stuff. From then on I gradually progressed to producing my own Talks based on my ideas and not on W.T Outlines. I was allowed to do this for several years until a firm directive from ( Party) Headquarters forbade it.
I then used to knock the WT outlines into shape, discarding rubbish, introducing my own stuff, I was told on a number of occasions when giving "away" talks that Bros there that gave the "same" talk did not recognise what I gave. Tee Hee.
Eventually I got to the point where my theology was diverging so far from the W.T's that I refused to do any more P.T's, despite requests from other Congo's for me to do so.
I woke up fully and left not long after.
 +1 / -0

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I cringe when I think about the talks I gave.
by James Mixon 11 days ago 28 Replies latest 10 days ago   watchtower bible
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flamegrilled
flamegrilled 10 days ago

Good topic. Got the T-Shirt.
People used to speak very highly of my illustrations - most of which I realize were completely flawed now. I think I used to use illustrations as if they were proof of something which they never ever are. The gullible in the audience treat them that way too, as they do the pictorial illustrations in the publications.
If anyone is familiar with Greco-Roman history this whole "teaching method" actually parallels the way in which plays and certain events in the Colloseum and other amphitheatres were used. e.g. they would get some guy to dress as a swan and literally rape a woman publicly. This would reinforce belief in the idea that a god called Zeus actually took the form of a swan and seduced/raped a woman called Leda. Just seeing it reenacted was used as a form of proof in the minds of the audience.
So many people during the Watchtower study comment now on details in pictures as if they're proof of something that actually happened, even though it's an artist's impression. It's the same syndrome.

 +3 / -0
konceptual99
konceptual99 10 days ago

Great OP and thread.
I used to think I was a good speaker but I now realise I had more in common with a parrot.
 +1 / -0
jwleaks
jwleaks 10 days ago

"When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, to think as a child, to reason as a child; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the traits of a child." - 1 Corinthians 13:11
We all grow up.
 +3 / -0
OnTheWayOut
OnTheWayOut 10 days ago
I must say I am right at home with this thread.
I developed 45-minute talks following the outlines tightly, but having done research on the individual points found within the outline or (more commonly) the Watchtower references until I was convinced that this is such obvious logic. As I look back, I used logic flaws like a madman.
 +1 / -0
StephaneLaliberte
StephaneLaliberte 10 days ago

James Mixon: One day, out in service, I preached to a baptist preacher. "How old are you son?" he asked. "I'm 13!". "Then how could you possibly know more on life, God and the bible, than me, a 50 year old preacher?" I replied: "The bible is the word of God is it not?" "And God is since time indefinite is he not? So both you and I are nothing compared to him. So, I visit my neighbours and let him speak through the bible." While this man probably stood silent, bewildered by the stupidity of my argument, I sadly believed that I had won an argument. So, for the next 20 years, I felt empowered by that conversation and believed that my personal knowledge and age were no obstacles to speaking teaching. Little did I know, I was just a puppet, doing the will of my puppeteers.
 +2 / -0
Billzfan23
Billzfan23 10 days ago
I gave a local needs talk in November of 2006 about the dangers of mySpace, Facebook, and other social media sites - their bad associations, why they are not suitable for Christians - now every tom dick and harry in the hall has a FB page covered with JW drivel....
 
sir82
sir82 10 days ago

I used to proudly give the talk on Noah's flood.

One of the centerpieces of the "historicity" of the flood that I used was that old 1960's "Saturday Evening Post" article about jumbles of fossilized bones found together, and still-edible mammoth carcasses in Siberia.
Yikes.

 
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 10 days ago
I only gave a number 4or 5 talk in the school when I was about 12 that was it. Then bible readings
 
James Mixon
James Mixon 10 days ago

Thanks folks I feel a little better now, I see I wasn't the only one full of themselves.LOL
I gave a slide presentation (preaching work in Belize,Mayas in the bush) in my congregation,
other congregations heard of about it and request to be shown in their congregation in the circuit.
I gave the presentation in two congregation before the brothers sent word it wasn't appropriate,
something about self exultation. But anyway the friends enjoyed the presentation, something
a little different than the book of Daniel that no one understood. Maybe because in the presentation a lady
we encounter ask for medicine for her child, she was topless.
 

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Looking for a couple pdfs please
by average joe 10 days ago 0 Replies latest 10 days ago   watchtower bible
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average joe
average joe 10 days ago

Does anyone have ....
Branch organization manual 2015
How to conduct the watchtower study video and guide in english? It is in spanish here
http://hildeydesa.blogspot.com/2015/11/escuela-de-ancianos-bosquejo-y-video-de.html yes i still want to see it.
Are there any new manuals ,guides,secret books within the last year or so you guys can share?
 

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questions
by Schilderijtje 10 days ago 10 Replies latest 9 days ago   watchtower bible
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Schilderijtje
Schilderijtje 10 days ago

Hello,
We are two students from Holland, who would like some information about Jehovah witnesses. Especially about the invisible return of Jesus. On which Bible scripts do you ground this?
Thank you for answering our question. We appreciate it very much.
Yours sincerely
 +4 / -0
redpilltwice
redpilltwice 10 days ago

Sorry to most readers, but I'll turn to Dutch now, just for the sake of clarity.
Dag dames, hoewel de meesten hier op dit forum geen boodschap meer hebben aan de corrupte chronologie die de getuigen gebruiken om in 1914 uit te komen, vinden jullie hieronder de link naar hun meest gebruikte studieboek (Wat Leert de Bijbel echt?) op hun eigen officiele website. Jullie vinden de info puur vanuit de Getuigen doctrine zelf in hoofdstuk 8 en 9 en ook de appendix (bldz. 215-218) waarnaar verwezen wordt in hoofdstuk 8. Alle bijbelteksten zullen jullie hier vinden.
ttps://www.jw.org/nl/publicaties/boeken/wat-de-bijbel-leert/wat-is-gods-koninkrijk/
https://www.jw.org/nl/publicaties/boeken/wat-de-bijbel-leert/leven-we-in-de-laatste-dagen/
ZEER BELANGRIJK!!! Vergeet niet om ook de tegenargumenten en ontmaskering van deze leerstelling te onderzoeken op b.v. dit forum, jwfacts.com en ad1914.com! Pas dan zie je de hiaten en historische verdraaiingen rondom 1914! Succes!
 +2 / -0
TTWSYF
TTWSYF 10 days ago

redpill twice- That's what I was gonna say.
 +2 / -0
redpilltwice
redpilltwice 10 days ago

redpill twice- That's what I was gonna say.
That's allright, glad to see some unity here...
 
menrov
menrov 10 days ago
Jullie kunnen mij een pm sturen. Ik wil jullie best helpen. Ik hoor het wel.
 +1 / -0
Anders Andersen
Anders Andersen 10 days ago

Hier ook. PM als je wilt.
Or continue in English on the forum.
 
Lieu
Lieu 10 days ago

Actually the real answer to that goes back to Charles Taze Russell in a pamphlet he published in 1877: Object and Manner of Our Lord’s Return. Page 62 onward if you have the patience.
It can be found with a basic Google search.
 
alanv
alanv 10 days ago
I dont think they needed to converse in Dutch, they seemed very capable of using Engliah
 +1 / -0
Schilderijtje
Schilderijtje 9 days ago

Thanks everyone for helping us!
 +1 / -0
punkofnice
punkofnice 9 days ago

With the information you now have, you probably know more about it than the average JW.
Please feel free to ask any questions about JWs you wish.
 +1 / -0

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by Schilderijtje 10 days ago 10 Replies latest 9 days ago   watchtower bible
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fulano
fulano 9 days ago
Schilderijtje, send PM if you would like more inside information of the JW. In Dutch or english..
 

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Topic Summary
we are two students from holland, who would like some information about jehovah witnesses.
especially about the invisible return of jesus.
on which bible scripts do you ground this?


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/ "Death will be no more" - ONLY earthly blessing?
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"Death will be no more" - ONLY earthly blessing?
by TheWonderofYou 7 days ago 10 Replies latest 4 days ago   watchtower bible
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TheWonderofYou
TheWonderofYou 7 days ago

Todays daily text refers to a new? explanation for doorkeepers that "Death will be no more" would only refer to an earthly blessing, because it would be logically according to the text that in heaven no one ever died or death had never been there. Seems like wishful argument for the earthly paradise.
Dont forget the 144000 members of the heavenly class that will receive heavenly blessing after death and used for decades Rev. 21,4 in field service. Would not for them "death will be no more" apply too, when they switched from earthly sphere to heavenly sphere?
So for one of the anointed who got to heaven after many years of earthly service the "death will be no more" (Rev.21,4) would apply too. Then logically "death no more" has as as result not solely an "earthly" blessing but as result a "heavenly" blessing too .
Otherwise the anointed shall not sing the kingdom songs any longer or use the passage if it had no heavenly blessing too.


We could ask the person if he agrees that in order for something to be no more, it had to exist in the first place. Likely, he will say yes. Then we could point out that there has never been death in heaven; people die only here on earth. Logically, then, Revelation 21:4 must be referring to future blessings here on earth.
 +2 / -1
sir82
sir82 7 days ago

"Logically"????
John Smith lives in the Australian Outback. There is very little water there. He gets tired of always having to save water. He wants to move where he no longer has to worry about water shortages.

He decides to move to the Big Island of Hawaii, to a little village which gets 300 inches of rain a year.
When he moves, for him, "drought will be no more".
Per Watchtower "logic", then, the Australian Outback will become a tropical rainforest, since there has never been a drought in that small Hawaiian village.
Well, at least it makes more sense than "overlapping generations".

 +6 / -0
truthwillsetyoufree
truthwillsetyoufree 7 days ago

I've always associated heaven with the spirit world in general. Heaven isn't a physical place like the earth is. But whilst in heaven satan and a whole multitude of angels rebelled. And these ones are now destined for the fiery gehenna - in other words these ones will be destroyed, in other words, they will die. But they are spirit and live in the spirit realm. So there must be death in the spirit realm.
Now, I was always told that Jehovah is currently allowing all sorts of governments to rule over mankind to prove to not only us but also to all the angles that no government but Jehovahs can affectively rule over the earth. When he does away with them at armageddon he will then place his kingdom on the earth. From that time onwards he would never again allow his rule to be questioned as he would now have proved his full right to rule. So should anyone turn away from jehovah in paradise that one would be struck down immediately. So what would happen if an angel in heaven should once again behave like satan and his demons? Would jehovah let him behave rebelliously or will he kill him?
The understanding i was led to believe that after paradise comes anyone who goes against jehovah, e8ther on earth or in heaven, would immediatelt be destroyed, killed, taste death. So to say that there isnt death in heaven, or ever would be, seems to be an illogical conclusions. The scriptures also do not explicitly say that death does or does not occur in heaven so teach dogmatically either way goes beyond scripture.
Personally i believe, when it says no more death, that this was given to mankind. So to me it is referring to the earthly, natural death that everyone ultimately experiences - which we experience because of adamic death if you believe in that. I belive this is the death that would be done away with. But if someone rebels against god again then god wouldnt allow so a thing to continue again so death would have to take place.
Of course everything ive just said could be completely wrong. Its just my own thoughts which continue to change based on my own understanding, experience and ignorance.
 +2 / -0
Terry
Terry 7 days ago

This video is well-researched and makes a rather stunning point I hadn't thought about before.



 +2 / -0
Crazyguy
Crazyguy 7 days ago
Revelations clearly shows that the first resurrection is only for those that were killed as martyrs for Christ all others that have died have to wait 1000 years then be resurrected in to a time where Satan is let loose a time of judgment. So much for death being no more.
 +1 / -0
leaving_quietly
leaving_quietly 6 days ago

Logically, then, Revelation 21:4 must be referring to future blessings here on earth.
Well, duh... Revelation 21:2 says that, Sherlock! "I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."

 
TheWonderofYou
TheWonderofYou 5 days ago

I was quite irritated too by the course of the events from now on until the "new heavens and new earth", what would be the last blessing and would not happen before the 1000 years of horrible examinations have ended.
I always thought that soon after the 1000 year paradise would begin, the resurrection would start and that was for me same as the "tears will be no more, death will be no more" becoming true. (21:4)
But in reality in the course of events as presented in Revelation this "earthly blessing" is not happening within the 1000 years at all, but only after them. Revel. 21:1-4 is the ultimate event.
Thats the big problem that arises: That "Tears will be no more, death now more" is part of a single event once happening as last dimension in the  "new heavens and new earth" and not before ...
But the 1000 year millenium is taught to happen before the new heavens and new earth will come into existence and it would last 1000 years. And as the the millenium is not the same as the new heavens and new earth how could death be no more be part of the milllenium?
This would lead to the thesis that the resurraction in the millenium of unrightous is not the end for the adamic death yet, and that people will die in the millenium, no ever regenerating bodies, no automatic healing the rising unrighteous but they will have to wait for the Heavens&earth event to become again resurrected.
Since such a  multiple resurraction and dying would be senseless, something in the whole stories does not fit together



leaving_quietly
Yes I am glad to know of the blessing that God is coming out of heaven is close to us, even so close that God calls the mankind - the bride of christ - with a special name "city of God", Gods "New Jerusalem". That is an indication that within the congregation the hope of new jerusalem becomes visible already in the present time, because the bride of christ already exists now and not only after the millenium.
 +1 / -0
TheWonderofYou
TheWonderofYou 5 days ago

Yes I am glad to know of the blessing that God is coming out of heaven is close to us, even so close that God calls the mankind - the bride of christ - with a special name "city of God", Gods "New Jerusalem".
That is an indication that within the congregation the hope of new jerusalem becomes visible already in the present time, because the bride of christ already exists now and not only after the millenium.
It means too that the congregation is called to become a happy city, to the symbol of living together in peace and interpersonal relationships.
All men and people of the earth are in this image already now gathered in this city - a city that is quasi gods dwelling or tent on earth (Rev. 21,3).
Its clear that these earthly blessing are earthly, and I personally believe in earthly blessings, and I believe that some are happening now, as jesus is already king, and the coming of others we will have to expect what will come.
 
Lieu
Lieu 5 days ago

Hmmmm, let's see what the Christ fellow said
Luke 20:34-36 NET
So Jesus said to them, "The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. [35] But those who are regarded as worthy to share in that age and in the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage. [36] In fact, they can no longer die, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, since they are sons of the resurrection.
"They can no longer die" those resurrecteds.
Rev 20:7-15 appears to say the resurrection takes place AFTER Satan gets the final boot, not during the 1000 yr reign or before. It's at the point where the books of life are opened. If you were decent enough you get resurrected to life and as Jesus said "can no longer die". If you were plainly a no goodnick you get trashed and are not resurrected.
Seems simple enough to me.


As to there being death in heaven or not, no one knows. I do know they've got some angel police.
 
Heaven
Heaven 5 days ago

A few years ago I began to read and research, in earnest, information about our natural world.

Very early on it became crystal clear to me that in order for life to exist on this planet, death had to occur. Death sustains life. This nullifies the ancient attempt at rationalizing why people die and the belief of 'the fall' and original sin.

It also became clear to me that the homo sapien species is just one of millions, possibly billions, of species that live on this planet. There are millions of species of insects alone. Humans are part of the ecosystem, not separate. Our place is really a very small one in this system, when we consider the vastness of the number of organisms living on Earth. This nullifies religions' arrogant ideal that the Earth was perfectly made for us.

So many concepts taught by religion fail when studying the actual systems of nature on this planet.
"All plants are carnivores. They eat you in the end." - Bill Mollison
 

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"Death will be no more" - ONLY earthly blessing?
by TheWonderofYou 7 days ago 10 Replies latest 4 days ago   watchtower bible
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JW_Rogue
JW_Rogue 4 days ago

Man dies because he has fallen from grace and is sinful. He must restore his relationship with God through his redeemer Jesus Christ. Dogs and cats die because...hey, who cares they're just dumb animals? LOL
 

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The Neuroscience of Enlightenment, with Dr. Andrew Newberg
by Brokeback Watchtower 6 days ago 0 Replies latest 6 days ago   watchtower bible
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Brokeback Watchtower
Brokeback Watchtower 6 days ago

I think he explains it pretty good. Neuroscience is looking at it, it is something that they have been doing science on at the Johns Hopkins university and I'm sure other place around the world why not it has the power to greatly improve our life if say, people could have these enlightening experiences more often.


Johns Hopkins Psilocybin Research Project - Roland Griffiths



 

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Why education is a killer for doomsday cults.
by Half banana 6 days ago 13 Replies latest 16 hours ago   watchtower bible
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Half banana
Half banana 6 days ago

If you were to read the Watchtower literature and you believed it to be the exclusive divinely inspired interpretation of the Bible, I suggest that you would not be learning anything useful, instead you would simply be absorbing the indoctrination of the JW org.

 What is the difference between indoctrination and education?
Take any passage from the Watchtower, this sentence for example, which assumes significance in the end of six thousand years of human history in 1975: “How then does this fit in with God’s timetable?” It asks.
 Let’s de-construct.
The question includes an assumption that God has a' time-table', is that normal for gods?... and for that to be possible there has to be the assumption that there is a God in the first place.
 We need not go there for the moment but let us have a look at how ideas are embedded or nested in other broader cultural assumptions. The WT text speaks of six thousand years of human history recalling earlier assumptions that each Biblical day of creation was seven thousand years long, therefore with a millennium of kingdom rule still to go (according to WT doctrine) six thousand years from the creation of man would have significance. (Incidentally these notions like all of the early Watchtower teachings and most of the Bible; are borrowed beliefs).
To get at the truth we have to ask; who says that the world was created in six, seven thousand year “days”? Where is the evidence? Who says we are all descendants of Adam and Eve? Where is the evidence? What evidence is there for the divine origin of Bible texts? Why do the Bible texts conflict so much? Why were the Bible books selected from existing texts and put together by the Roman Catholic Church? Why should we trust the Bible as being true? etc.
Such assumed ideas as divine creation, divine retribution and salvation through sacrifice are repeated ad nauseum over time by preachers, it has been passed down from parents to their hapless offspring to create a respected mythical matrix in which all and any religious belief can flourish. Because of this JWs can rely on certain assumptions on which to build their particular doctrines, they can nest their own spin within an existing framework of unsubstantiated religious belief. Religion avoids scientific analysis, it relies instead on "holiness".
We might summarise indoctrination then as assumptions built upon assumptions repeatedly given to an audience already conditioned to receive it uncritically. This is very much at odds with education.
Education means not being told what to believe but ”to learn how to learn,” and that requires questioning the truthfulness of any statement or proposition offered. This requires using questions like how do we know this is true? Where is the evidence for this?
Assumptions are a total waste of time, a critical evaluation of all information is vital for truth to emerge.
The Watchtower since it start, has spewed out completely worthless twaddle, its vast catalogue of wrong conclusions have demonstrated its uselessness over time. One cannot logically use anything it has said as a foundation for further conclusions. Conversely educated reasoning can be built upon because critical analysis and fact is at its foundation.
Does your religion strongly discourage higher education? If the answer is yes, it must have something to hide. I think of the Watchtower like a nasty fungus which can only spread in the dark, it is the daylight of education which destroys it.
 +15 / -0
MarkofCane
MarkofCane 6 days ago
Education and doomsday cults cannot coexist.... they fear it be causes it fosters reason and logic, which completely deconstructs their teachings.
 +2 / -0
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 6 days ago

A Witness I work with has a very good education and was obtained while a Witness.
 +0 / -1
Doubtfully Yours
Doubtfully Yours 6 days ago

Education teaches critical thinking. All of a sudden, much of the dogma doesn't make sense.
DY
 +1 / -0
wifibandit
wifibandit 6 days ago

http://i.imgur.com/pcVv3Yy.gifv

 
Half banana
Half banana 6 days ago
Thanks Wifi, but sorry Mr Morris... you mean an institute of INDOCTRINATION.
 +2 / -0
Pistoff
Pistoff 6 days ago

The Watchtower since it start, has spewed out completely worthless twaddle, its vast catalogue of wrong conclusions have demonstrated its uselessness over time. One cannot logically use anything it has said as a foundation for further conclusions. Conversely educated reasoning can be built upon because critical analysis and fact is at its foundation.
Nicely put.

 
prologos
prologos 5 days ago
U:  "A Witness I work with has a very good education and was obtained while a Witness. I also knew witnesses who were rocket scientists. All highly specialized training is not education though. A very good opening post. 
 +2 / -0
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 5 days ago
They have a couple of degrees and have travelled quite a lot and teach.
 
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 5 days ago

Even the WT has used this quote: (spot the irony in it)
"Education TEACHES you HOW to THINK, Propaganda TELLS you WHAT to think"
 +1 / -0

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Why education is a killer for doomsday cults.
by Half banana 6 days ago 13 Replies latest 16 hours ago   watchtower bible
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bohm
bohm 5 days ago

What a great post. A quote that I often think about on this topic (I can't recall where I first saw it) goes something like this (I think i am butchering it pretty badly though): The difference between a scientific mindset and a non-scientific mindset is that a non-scientific mindset tries to label statements as either true or false whereas a scientific mindset asks how likely each statement is to be true and how we can know.
 +2 / -0
Half banana
Half banana a day ago

@Ucantnome, JWs for the most part are not stupid but they are deceived or deluded.
Religion appeals to the emotional aspects of our being often at the expense of the logical. Humans can find emotional drives more powerful than any knowledge of the cosmos which might seem detached or merely abstract... but our feelings are what we live with and what we colour the world with.
It takes some growing up to step outside of a purely emotionally driven life.
 +1 / -1
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 19 hours ago
Half banana I'm quite grown up and so is the person I work with
 
Half banana
Half banana 16 hours ago

I'm sure you are Ucantnome but I only grew up when I was about forty when I left behind the infantile beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses. So I apologise if I was projecting my own immaturity on others.
However I would maintain that mentally bright JWs are foolish and juvenile to allow their emotional/ religious life trump scientific truth. We should marshal our emotions and knowledge after knowing first what is actually true, not base our lives  on Bible stories as taught by cult leaders.
 +1 / -0

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what more cuts might be in the pipeline
by pepperheart 3 days ago 13 Replies latest 2 days ago   watchtower bible
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pepperheart
pepperheart 3 days ago
There have been so many cuts in the past few years in the jw world what do you think might be next?

 
millie210
millie210 3 days ago

There has been a rumor floating around for years that they are going to cut the number of circuit overseers. Use qualified COBEs from a local circuit to do the job. Shorten the congregation visits to a long weekend (Thurs night thru Sunday).
I am not sure though since they removed D.O.s if that will happen but it would cut costs.
Circuit overseers seem somewhat of a liability as they cost the Org a lot of $$ and the members are finding them more and more of a visit they dread and just dont support
 +8 / -0
joe134cd
joe134cd 3 days ago
In another 80 years time the org will be reduced to a web site with a few scattered buildings around the world where th R&F meet once a year.
 +6 / -0
Brokeback Watchtower
Brokeback Watchtower 3 days ago
You give it 80 years(2096) reach that condition? No way! they will be making it there in 20 years max perhaps 10 or five the way things are moving these days of instant information. I think these clowns are in deep doo doo right now and they are getting ready for some big time sell offs even their compounds built on chemical dumps will be up for sale in 5 or six years the way things are speeding up and Jehovah's chariot is stuck in reverse.
 +9 / -0
OneEyedJoe
OneEyedJoe 3 days ago

2 day conventions will probably still generate 90% of the income of a 3 day, with lower costs.
Asking individual JWs or congregations to print study literature themselves if they don't have an iPad.
On the flip side (revenue generation) I expect the number of zone visits and special broadcasts like that to increase, since the boe is instructed to forward all donations from these events to HQ
 +1 / -0
DesirousOfChange
DesirousOfChange 3 days ago

I think the Kingdom Hall sell-off has only just begun.
As they determine that the R&F can drive a little further (hey! it's only twice per week now!) ideally they will have three Congs using each Hall. That could be quite a sell off in major metro areas with all funds going to "Mother".
If there are too many Congs that fail to contribute sufficient funds to Mother, they could conceive a "per publisher" cost (just like at assemblies), thus requiring each Cong to contribute "$XXX.xx" per month with a lot of pressure on the Elders & MS to see that they always meet or exceed their "goal". This would guarantee that a certain level of funds goes into WTS each and every month.
A reduction in COs has been noted in the past and in a post above. I think COs are too important to maintain their control for them to completely eliminate the position, but official CO visits could be reduced to one per year, with a local "sub-CO" doing the 2nd visit and communicating anything of urgency to the CO.

Doc

 +5 / -0
OnTheWayOut
OnTheWayOut 3 days ago

I really don't see these guys being internet evangelists with checks rolling in. To get members' money, they have to meet. I can see congregations becoming smaller due to attrition and people being told to go further to a hall and others being sold. I can see them abandoning Kingdom Halls sometime after that and trying to have regular/semi-regular meetings at assembly halls, sort of the mega-church atmosphere. But that's pretty far down the road, and they would really have to get money from those attending if they only come every once-in-a-while.
Otherwise, they will pass on all the cost of printing to the locals eventually. They will not have to print as they can just carry a "device" with all they need on it.
I see them selling their glorious new headquarters, but not for decades. I see them fading away, I also see it taking 80 years or so, but lawsuits and damaging news about pedophiles and cover ups can speed it up.
 +1 / -0
EdenOne
EdenOne 3 days ago

I see Mega-Halls and Mega-Congregations in the larger cities where at least 5 congregations can share the building; in the countryside, meetings held in private homes with internet-streamed programs. All other KH sold.
I see Circuit Overseers disposed of and replaced by qualified COBE's who will visit neighboring congregations once a year with a reduced 2,5-day program (Friday evening to Sunday). CO's not too old will be re-assigned as COBE's of mega-congregations.
I see two multi-congregational conventions a year, lasting only 2 days (weekend), held in Convention Halls held by the JW's.
I see the disappearance of the Awake! magazine (first the paper edition, then the digital edition).
I see the disappearance of the paper study edition of the Watchtower magazine (only digital downloads).
I see the increase in printing of tracts and decrease in brochures and books. Possibly, only three study books (one for children, one basic, one advanced), plus the NWT Bible will remain being printed on a regular basis (plus specialized books such as the Manual for Elders etc). Everything else will be only available at the online library.
I see the increase in multi-media content production (including "christian music").
I see the scrapping of most Bethels still remaining, with only one or two Bethels for each continent. (Europe: UK and Germany; Africa: South Africa and Nigeria; Asia: Korea and India; Australia; North America: US; Central America: Mexico; South America: Brazil) The rest will be RTO's.

I see the multiplication of special "schools" to be held at week days at Convention Halls to maximize the use of these facilities.
EdenOne
 +6 / -0
Doubtfully Yours
Doubtfully Yours 3 days ago

Here praying for years now that the Friday gets knocked off from the RA. Also, shorter hours during all the assemblies. I swear I'll throw a party the very day that happens!
If in order to always use the WTBTS buildings the assemblies are reduced to only one 1-day and another 2-day each year, thus knocking out of the equation one of the small assemblies. That would be most awesome!!!
When they figure out that this method will bring them more money for less effort, it will come to pass as all changes throughout out this org's history points to the fact they've all been made in the name of 'more money funneled to momma'.
DY
 
Doubtfully Yours
Doubtfully Yours 3 days ago

One meeting weekly only.
No monthly reporting of service time.
No shunning!
 +1 / -0

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what more cuts might be in the pipeline
by pepperheart 3 days ago 13 Replies latest 2 days ago   watchtower bible
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out4good4
out4good4 3 days ago

One meeting weekly only.
No monthly reporting of service time.
No shunning!
Good Luck with that one......
The organization would wither away and die if that were the case.....
 +5 / -0
JW GoneBad
JW GoneBad 2 days ago

'Mother' has had a problem with low congregation meeting attendance for the longest time...goes without saying! But it is worse now than it has ever been. A high percentage of congregations have 50% to 60% meeting attendance. Many congregations are reporting that upwards of 15 individuals are calling in to listen over the phone vs attending the Kingdom Hall on meeting day. WT has tried everything to boost meeting attendance and nothing seems to work. Most Kingdom Halls are being used 30% to 40% of their potential.
Lower and lower meeting attendance means less and less revenue being collected at meetings while at the same time costs to keep Kingdom Halls operational rises in the form of maintenance, upkeep, carpet, paint, utility costs and the like. So it stands to reason that more cuts in the form of Kingdom Hall sell-offs and less new Kingdom Hall construction is in the pipline!
 +1 / -0
Coded Logic
Coded Logic 2 days ago

The events of the past ten years has been truly extraordinary. The amount of material published is less than half. The amount of printing materials is a fraction of what it used to be. A whole meeting has been disposed of. Over a 1/3 of the branches have shut down. No more District Overseers. Massive layoffs at Bethel. Suspension of all construction. etc.
None of us had any idea the WT would so quickly be brought to her knees. If the slow attrition continues we'll see KHs being sold off more and more often. But if the next decade is anything like the last - there won't be much of an organisation left at all.
Can you imagine if half of the remaining Branches also get closed? If the role of Circuit Overseer gets phased out? If all printing is suspended? If the amount of content produced continues to plummet?
The WT is already well on its way to being a TV/internet evangelist religion. I doubt they be able to keep more than 25% of their Publisher base if they go that route. But it may be all they can do to stave off extinction. Adapt or die.
 
Lostandfound
Lostandfound 2 days ago
On the spiritual/doctrine side I expect the 144000 to be quietly discarded, memorial - all to partake, no change to women's role, elders and ministerial servants merged, no CO, more big brother to indoctrinating, new ways to screw money without the profits from literature, assemblies, donations from congregation rather than individual increasing as a way of ensuring cash flow. GB helpers upgraded to GB status as all now par takers. Higher education encouraged as a way of getting better paid followers.
 +1 / -0

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We close this prayer in the mighty god and our everlasting father Jesus Christ amen.
by pleaseresearch 3 days ago 8 Replies latest 8 hours ago   watchtower bible
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pleaseresearch
pleaseresearch 3 days ago

Hmmm, how well do you think that would go down?
You didn't say nothing wrong, Isiah states that Jesus is such things mentioned. Would brothers and sisters look at you with a smile, or would there be gasps of shock as you closed a prayer like that.
 +1 / -0
jookbeard
jookbeard 3 days ago
summoned to the back room before you've had a chance to sit down
 +1 / -0
redvip2000
redvip2000 3 days ago
99.99 would go unnoticed for two reasons. First because 90% are not listening and are instead thinking of what they are going to eat for dinner. The other 9.99% are listening but that sounds similar to the traditional ending where you state something like "We end this prayer by asking all these things in Jesus's name, amen", so they would just shrug their shoulders and move along.

 +3 / -0
Doubtfully Yours
Doubtfully Yours 3 days ago

I'd say the "Amen" just because I've been not really listening to any of the prayers at the kh. I just bow head, sometimes close eyes, and wait for the group "Amen" to lift head back up.
So, I'm sure quite a few would say their "Amen".
DY
 
neat blue dog
neat blue dog 3 days ago
I'd rather hear that than 'care and keeping' one more time . . .
 +3 / -0
TTWSYF
TTWSYF 2 days ago

You see that Jesus is a mighty god,
not ALMIGHTLY GOD
IS 9;6
 
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 2 days ago
No one would notice it.....
 
Lieu
Lieu 2 days ago

I think a smurf would jump from a chair and run out the KH yelling,"This is BS!!".
Why do you ask? 😆
 +1 / -0
Doug Mason
Doug Mason 8 hours ago

Isaiah was speaking about one of his own children, not of some non-human, whether present or in the future.
Doug

 

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Bible Research & Study Articles
Critical analysis of the WatchTower Bible & Tract Society publications and the bible
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lyfe
2
JW Publication Reviews
by lyfe in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 21 hours ago
hi all,i'm looking for a bit of help.

i'm in the process of reviewing the following three jw publications:* the watchtower no2.

2016 why did jesus suffer and die (this is the publication i am unable to find much information online)* was life created 2010 copy* awake no2.

freddo
Doug Mason
12 hours ago
pleaseresearch
8
We close this prayer in the mighty god and our everlasting father Jesus Christ amen.
by pleaseresearch in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 3 days ago
hmmm, how well do you think that would go down?.

you didn't say nothing wrong, isiah states that jesus is such things mentioned.

would brothers and sisters look at you with a smile, or would there be gasps of shock as you closed a prayer like that..

stuckinarut2
Lieu
Doug Mason
8 hours ago
pepperheart
13
what more cuts might be in the pipeline
by pepperheart in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 3 days ago
there have been so many cuts in the past few years in the jw world what do you think might be next?

JW GoneBad
Coded Logic
Lostandfound
2 days ago
COLLINS
6
KEDI healthcare
by COLLINS in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 4 days ago
i need information about kedi healthcare.

i know a little detail about this network marketing.

i need experiences of those who have worked in this network before because i am about joining this network marketing business.

dubstepped
JeffT
Simon
a day ago
Half banana
13
Why education is a killer for doomsday cults.
by Half banana in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 6 days ago
if you were to read the watchtower literature and you believed it to be the exclusive divinely inspired interpretation of the bible, i suggest that you would not be learning anything useful, instead you would simply be absorbing the indoctrination of the jw org..

what is the difference between indoctrination and education?.

take any passage from the watchtower this sentence for example which assumes significance in the end of six thousand years of human history in 1975: “how then does this fit in with god’s timetable?”.

Half banana
Ucantnome
Half banana
16 hours ago
Brokeback Watchtower
The Neuroscience of Enlightenment, with Dr. Andrew Newberg
by Brokeback Watchtower in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 6 days ago
i think he explains it pretty good.

neuroscience is looking at it, it is something that they have been at the johns hopkins.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ol0rus1y2gs.

TheWonderofYou
10
"Death will be no more" - ONLY earthly blessing?
by TheWonderofYou in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 7 days ago
todays daily text refers to a new?

explanation for doorkeepers that "death will be no more" would only refer to an earthly blessing, because it would be logically according to the text that in heaven no one ever died or death had never been there.

seems like wishful argument for the earthly paradise.. dont forget the 144000 members of the heavenly class that will receive heavenly blessing after death and used for decades rev.

Lieu
Heaven
JW_Rogue
4 days ago
Schilderijtje
10
questions
by Schilderijtje in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 10 days ago
we are two students from holland, who would like some information about jehovah witnesses.

especially about the invisible return of jesus.

on which bible scripts do you ground this?

Schilderijtje
punkofnice
fulano
9 days ago
average joe
Looking for a couple pdfs please
by average joe in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 10 days ago
does anyone have ..... branch organization manual 2015. how to conduct the watchtower study video and guide in english?

it is in spanish here.

http://hildeydesa.blogspot.com/2015/11/escuela-de-ancianos-bosquejo-y-video-de.html yes i still want to see it.. are there any new manuals ,guides,secret books within the last year or so you guys can share?.

James Mixon
28
I cringe when I think about the talks I gave.
by James Mixon in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 11 days ago
you brothers who gave talks do you thinks about the crap you spoke from the platform.. thirty years old, no knowledge what so ever of the world we live in, barely making the grade.

to graduate from high school, a year and half in jc college and now with schooling of jw higher.

education i thought i was a hell of a speaker.

sir82
Ucantnome
James Mixon
10 days ago
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