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/ Dutch branch refuses to meet with LGBT rights organization.
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Dutch branch refuses to meet with LGBT rights organization.
by Anders Andersen a day ago 6 Replies latest 15 hours ago   watchtower scandals
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Anders Andersen
Anders Andersen a day ago

In the wake of the anti-gay cartoon, the CoC (Dutch LGBT rights organization) invited Watchtower Netherlands to discuss how Watchtower is dealing with LGBT people in their ranks. Focus of the meeting would be on making sure LGBT JW feel safe and fully accepted.
Today several newspapers are reporting that the branch declined the invitation, stating that they 'can't imagine LGBT JW feeling unsafe. The branch won't talk to CoC, but they might discuss internally with LGBT JW.'
Articles in Dutch:
http://m.ad.nl/ad/m/nl/38261/Nieuws/article/detail/4309601/2016/05/28/Jehovah-s-Getuigen-weigeren-gesprek-met-homobeweging.dhtml
http://www.bndestem.nl/algemeen/binnenland/jehovah-s-getuigen-weigeren-gesprek-met-homobeweging-1.6057219

 +3 / -0
zeb
zeb a day ago

That answer is on a par with Jackson's not presuming to be the only source of gods will on earth.

 +1 / -0
redpilltwice
redpilltwice 18 hours ago

Nice footage Anders! The COC rightfully says it's unbelievable that JW headquarters don't want to talk about safety regarding JW LGBT's while they ALWAYS want to talk about their beliefs.
Also great CoC offers support for JW LGBT's that want to discuss this matter within the Borg.
Talking about human rights!!! It seems WT again will be put to shame by satan's ungodly system of things.
 +1 / -0
Listener
Listener 18 hours ago

They are not prepared to co-operate with the higher authorities, they have to be forced through legal means.
 +2 / -0
LoveUniHateExams
LoveUniHateExams 17 hours ago

Good find, Anders.
So, the WT won't even meet with COC (Dutch LGBT group). This suggests that they aren't confident of their stance.
Perhaps, they might even be ashamed.
I hope they are.

 +1 / -0
Diogenesister
Diogenesister 16 hours ago

Good for COC....taking the higher moral ground by offering support and guidance to WT regarding the recent video. That's an example of real brotherly love, not just getting angry and slamming WT for their ignorance but reaching out to them to help.
WT would do well to learn from their example.
 +1 / -0
NVR2L8
NVR2L8 15 hours ago

The world's government and institutions are about to be replaced by God's kingdom and there will be no humans rights under this perfect theocracy. You do what you're told or you disappear. All it took Adam and Eve was to eat fruit...LGBT will not exist when humans are perfect nor will anyone need rights because they will naturally submit to the laws of their creator. Doesn't it all make sense? I just can't wait until that time. SHOOT ME KNOW!
 

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/ New RC disfellowshipping video - disgusting
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New RC disfellowshipping video - disgusting
by krejames a day ago 1 Replies latest 21 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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krejames
krejames a day ago

Here's a video I think should be getting more publicity than the so-called anti-gay video. Produced for the 2016 RC. I find this repulsive. Felt so incensed, I had to tweet about it hehe.
Sorry if someone has already posted on this.
https://mobile.twitter.com/NutJobJo1/status/737166347088564224

 
Crazyguy
Crazyguy 21 hours ago

I did a JW search on my phone earlier today and on a Twitter feed this was listed first. Thier wacky videos and thier pedophile court cases are going to get them some real bad press. They must not care or maybe thier pushing for that persecution complex.
 +2 / -0

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/ HSC Research project
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HSC Research project
by stephaniejo1998 19 hours ago 1 Replies latest 18 hours ago   watchtower medical
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stephaniejo1998
stephaniejo1998 19 hours ago

Hey guys,
Please be honest with your answers, this is for my benefit to discover everyones personal beliefs on the topic and how their religion can affect this.
Please take the time to fill out this survey, all responses will only be used for educational purposes.

https://docs.google.com/…/1VcAEZ8fQW3zcZlcOevXv6o4mVki…/edit
Thanks,
Stephanie
 
cofty
cofty 18 hours ago

Hi Steph welcome to the forum.
Perhaps you could elaborate a bit more on the purpose of the survey. Is it a school/college project?
 

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/ Reflections on John the Baptizer
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Reflections on John the Baptizer
by Nicholaus Kopernicus 16 hours ago 3 Replies latest 16 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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Nicholaus Kopernicus
Nicholaus Kopernicus 16 hours ago

INTRODUCTION
Israel did not have a prophet in its midst for about 400 years. No, not since the time of Malachi where the “old testament ends”. Of his son just after his birth, the priest Zechariah says...
“But as for you, young child, you will be called a prophet of the Most High, for you will go ahead of Jehovah to prepare his ways, to give knowledge of salvation to his people by forgiveness of their sins, because of the tender compassion of our God. With this compassion a daybreak will visit us from on high, to give light to those sitting in darkness and death’s shadow and to guide our feet in the way of peace.” (Luke 1:76-79)
So Zechariah benefitted from a divine revelation about the role of his son. It would have been of considerable joy that Zechariah was to know the role his son would fulfil so soon after birth. So when we think of John the Baptizer, we should think of him the same as his earthly and heavenly Father did – as a prophet of the Most High. Well worth reflecting on the life and teachings of such an individual.
1. HIS ATTIRE & GROOMING
John the Baptizer was a Nazarite, so just like Samson he could not cut his hair. Thus, when seen in the vicinity of the Jordan preaching, his hair would have been quite long – longer than was socially acceptable then – probably reaching all the way down his back. It was likely the same with his beard, reaching all the way down to his abdomen.
His attire consisted of a camel skin caftan type garment (in those days usually used only for tents). He also had a leather belt. To onlookers, his style may have reminded them of Elijah or Elisha who attired themselves similarly. So his style of dress, rather like his grooming, was not within the normal societal parameters of the time. But does that really matter? In reading the Bible, I cannot discern any censure pertaining to his attire at all. It seemed irrelevant as many thousands flocked to him on the basis of his message and got baptized. Others were sent to him by the then ecclesiastical authorities to identify who he might be and his role. They didn’t take issue with his attire and grooming that I can see.
Of course, John was appointed by the Most High from birth. There is no evidence whatever that the Most High nor his son Jesus, the Christ, were disapproving of John on grounds of his style of dress. No indeed, of John the Baptizer Jesus said: “Truly I say to you, among those born of women, there has not been raised up anyone greater than John the Baptist....” (Matthew 11:11) What a really nice testimony. How thoughtful, discerning and kind Jesus was (and still is).
Reflections
We can learn from John’s peers about focusing on other than a style of dress.
Was James possibly influenced by John the Baptizer in his counsel about “a poor man in filthy clothing” (“vile raiment” – King James version) and associated “class distinctions”? There is such a lot of focus in the organisation as to what one’s apparel is - especially for brothers with platform assignments. It is so prescriptive. Like a neurosis of sorts. No scriptural justification.
In that John’s life and ministry was acceptable to the Most High and his Son Jesus the Christ, what does this say about those in the organisation who may disdain and marginalise individuals as a result of not meeting the standard of dress defined by the modern day ecclesiastical authorities?
Why should the ecclesiastical authorities in the organisation set standards for dress when the standard is already set in 1 Tim 2:9 (modest and well arranged)?

Are there brothers in congregations who wear beards? Do they have “privileges” in keeping with other brothers who are clean shaven? Seeing brothers with beards participating in speaking/teaching assignments is in my experience is extremely rare. In fact, can’t remember any occasion at all!

2. JOHN’S CHALLENGES TO ECCLESIASTICAL AUTHORITY
“When he caught sight of many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to the baptism, he said to them: “You offspring of vipers, who has warned you to flee from the coming wrath? Therefore, produce fruit that befits repentance. Do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones. The axe is already lying at the root of the trees. Every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire.” (Matthew 3:7-10)
This was very courageous on the part of John. Of the above scenario, the WTBTS said the following...
“Among those coming to see John were self-righteous Jewish religious leaders who felt no need to repent. They looked down on the common people who were getting baptized in symbol of repentance. Fearlessly, John exposed those hypocritical leaders...” (WT 08 6/15 7)

John’s role as a prophet here may be familiar in that most prophets before him had to challenge the ecclesiastical and other authorities of their day. There was repeated and mass desertion from the worship which was acceptable to the Most High. Jesus’ relationship with the ecclesiastical authorities was in many respects similar to that of his cousin John.
Reflections
The ecclesiastical authority in the organisation needs to be challenged. Their response to such and threat against those who do challenge is such that one has to do so very carefully. Many that I know have cancelled their financial contributions. This is known by the local BoE and the WT society of Britain in that many contributed using “Gift Aid” That means that your contributions are added to by the government at the basic rate of tax. The beneficiary uses your volunteered demographic details to claim the extra from the government. When these contributions stop, it is surely noted! “Too bad! Too bad!”
The above excerpt from the 2008 WT is pertinent today. There is no evidence of the GBoJW repenting for their handling of child abuse issues. No declaration of "mea culpa". I do sincerely hope that here in the UK, Justice Goddard will put the "SPOTLIGHT" on them!
Would dissidents like John the Baptizer be tolerated in the organisation? I suspect not? Is the intolerance of a different view (dissent) in the organisation Christian? Is such intolerance acceptable to the Most High? The Most High was never afraid of questions that I can see!

3. INCREASING AND DECREASING
In John 3:25-30 we are informed of John the Baptizer’s response to his disciples who were concerned about other individuals baptizing people. John’s response was put beautifully and humbly where he said: “Therefore this joy of mine has been made full. That one must go on increasing, but I must go on decreasing.” (vs 29,30) Of course, John was pleased to see the work and ministry of his cousin Jesus the Christ increasing.
That he puts it simply is in itself interesting. The Greek verb in the Bible translated as “increasing” is AUXANŌ (GROW) in Vine’s Expository Dictionary. Defined as: “to grow or increase, of the growth of that which lives, naturally or spiritually...” The antonym in the same text is ELATTOŌ (DECREASE) and “signifies to make less or inferior, in quality, position or dignity.... It is used in the Middle Voice in John the Baptist’s ‘I must decrease’ indicating the special interest he had in his own decrease, i.e., in authority and popularity.”
Reflections
This simple record of John the Baptizer has affected me greatly. It has helped me to see that in the organisation with which I affiliated in the early 1990’s, I am now decreasing. At the same time, the influence of Jesus in my thinking, personality, and behaviour is increasing. I suspect it is the same for many withdrawing, disengaging from the organisation. I get comfort for seeing my withdrawal in such a way.
In the organisation, there are a number of situations with increasing and decreasing. In the latest yearbook, the % increase for Britain is left blank! Same is true of a number of other countries. There’s an increasing in the frequency of correspondence from the WTBTS focussed on financial contributions!
The GBoJW and their helpers are exemplary of individuals in the organisation who are increasing in their authority and contact directly into the congregations. They are individuals whom we might never have heard of and not really known but for their increasing strategy. Whether the audience want to know them or not is something else. Would be better if they adopted a decreasing strategy and magnified the Lord Jesus!

 +2 / -0
Simon
Simon 16 hours ago

When he caught sight of many of the Pharisees and Sadducees ...
One of the most interesting books I read about the bible suggested that it's negative focus on the Pharisees and Sadducees was because it was largely the work of the third jewish sect - the Essenes. It's surprising how the WTS never really touches on this AFAIK. Of course when you read about them you realize it was just different factions in a power struggle and less "inspired". All groups wanted to produce their own messiah and spent their energy attacking the others.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essenes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teacher_of_Righteousness
 +1 / -0
TheLiberator
TheLiberator 16 hours ago

Good post! You can learn alot from him, but it does take reflection.
You said, "the influence of Jesus in my thinking, personality, and behaviour is increasing. I suspect it is the same for many withdrawing, disengaging from the organisation". This is so true.
Christ is everything. Others, including "weak" JW's, see the transformation in you.
 
snowbird
snowbird 16 hours ago

Since leaving the WT, I've learned that John the Baptizer was also viewed as the Elijah that was to come.
John was born around Passover, and to this very day, some Jews leave an empty chair at the Passover Seder for him.
Oh, the stuff to be discovered when you keep an open mind!
Sylvia

 

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/ Kevin the WT anti-hero
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Kevin the WT anti-hero
by jookbeard 13 hours ago 2 Replies latest 12 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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jookbeard
jookbeard 13 hours ago

Maybe its a bit too early yet to gauge the fall out from the R&F about the sheer lunacy from the RC's "loyalty" videos, any reports so far? these RC's clearly have pushed the boundaries of sanity even from them and it includes the truly sickening "disfellowshipping" video also.The only real result of these kind of insane video productions is that it will only haemorrhage more of their members didn't they learn from The Sparlock the Wizard videos? clearly not, not to worry though Kevin made the right decision.
 
Divergent
Divergent 13 hours ago

Kevin???
 
jookbeard
jookbeard 12 hours ago

Kevin the chap in the "loyalty" videos being shown at the RC's he perished at judgement day for leaving them
 

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/ What is it with that foreign accent in the RC videos?
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What is it with that foreign accent in the RC videos?
by bats in the belfry 12 hours ago 2 Replies latest 11 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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bats in the belfry
bats in the belfry 12 hours ago

If you believe their written up propaganda, everything is done with a greater purpose in mind.
What's your take on this?
 
hoser
hoser 12 hours ago
Foreign accent is all a matter of perspective.
 
bats in the belfry
bats in the belfry 11 hours ago
Maybe the GB is unhappy with the situation in Russia?
 

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/ Running ahead of Jehovah can be done with a slow walk.
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Running ahead of Jehovah can be done with a slow walk.
by donny 10 hours ago 9 Replies latest 3 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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donny
donny 10 hours ago

A few days ago I read a post of someone who has recently awakened to what the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society really is. In their comments, they stated that they had been accused of "running ahead of Jehovah."



"Running ahead of Jehovah" was a statement levied at me many times during my convoluted journey through that organization. I often wonder how many JW's think about that phrase "running ahead of Jehovah?"



If Jehovah actually existed and was the ultimate being he is portrayed to be, is such an act even possible?



Of course, what the Societies representatives usually meant was that your idea or understanding of a matter was something that could possibly happen one day but it was not yet time for God's one true organization to embrace that mindset.



The first time I recalled hearing that phrase was at a elders / ministerial servant meeting one time at the presiding overseers house around 1985. He was talking about a situation regarding the ability of a woman being able to scripturally divorce her husband if she discovered him to be a practicing homosexual.



Prior to sometime around 1972 or so, homosexual behavior was not viewed as "pornia" and therefore it was not an act that severed the bonds of matrimony. It was something viewed as an "unclean practice" like masturbation or oral sex.



The elder commented that before this "new light" of the early 1970's, a woman who divorced her gay husband and remarried was disfellowshipped for "conduct unbecoming a Christian" since she had now committed adultery.



Then when the Society had updated its teaching on the matter and did consider homosexual sex as something that severed the marriage vows, some asked the question as to the status of those throngs of women who were still disfellowshipped and if they would be automatically reinstated.



The answer was "No" and the reason given was "they had run ahead of Jehovah" or had "run ahead of the organization."



I always had an issue with that concept. How could one run ahead of an entity that was the "Most High" and supposedly knew everything and anything there was to know?



It was a question to which I never received a satisfactory answer to and that phrase haunted me until the day I plugged the hole in my head where the contents of my brain had been leaking out.



I came to realize that the reason it was possible to run ahead of Jehovah because he was the product of human beings who wandered around the deserts and plains of the Middle East about three millennia ago. They committed their stories and viewpoints to parchment that would later be retranslated and reinterpreted thousands of different ways.



Unfortunately, some of us just happened to become part of a group who were suckered and bamboozled by the versions presented by Joseph Rutherford, Freddy Franz and other subsequent members of the so-called "faithful and discreet slave."



Well I for one, am glad that I ran ahead of ol' Jehovah and it makes me happy to see him farther and farther in the rear view mirror.
 +15 / -0
Giordano
Giordano 10 hours ago

It has always pissed me off that a JW could have an understanding of something the lame Society couldn't but should have figured out. This person gets DFed and then a few years or decade later the WTBT$ figures this out and announces 'new light' but no invitation to return is given to the JW who got there first, who cared enough to run the risk of pointing something out.
This told me a couple of things about the WTBTS.....they are not bible scholars mainly because they were under educated. They never had god's blessing.......... they valued obedience above knowledge.......and they had no natural love for their followers who had become mostly born in's and also way under educated.
It's a nothing religion.
 +4 / -0
dubstepped
dubstepped 9 hours ago

Perhaps the organization is just lagging behind instead of others running ahead.
 +3 / -0
Simon
Simon 9 hours ago

Fall flat on your face and you have still got further ahead of those clowns.
It is terrible how they are always right, even when they have decided that the rules were wrong. Anyone actually doing the right thing consistently will always be the one classed as "wrong" while the ever-changing doctrines and rules swirl around them.
 +1 / -0
TMS
TMS 9 hours ago

It's simply an injustice to be punished for believing or doing what's right. An organization actually led by a "God of justice" would, at the very least, correct the injustice, removing the punishment and its effects and exonerate the individual who was right all along.
Only a weak-minded, insecure, narcissistic cult would insist that it was wrong for a member to be thinking faster, more clearly and accurately, or even scripturally, than they themselves.
I even have a problem with the Bible account of Uzzah being killed by Jehovah for "steadying the ark." I feel his reaction was likely instinctive. Why would he in a split second decide to show up Jehovah? Wouldn't Jehovah have looked even weaker if the ark had fallen over on its side? Maybe Uzzah wasn't a hero, but Jehovah was completely out of line to kill him.
 +8 / -0
Heaven
Heaven 6 hours ago

They conduct far too much tacking in the wind. They never make any real headway.

 
Heaven
Heaven 5 hours ago

Here's their reference to the 'tacking' analogy:


 +2 / -0
Room 215
Room 215 4 hours ago

I guess they've forgotten James 1:6: "But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavers is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. about."

 
jaydee
jaydee 4 hours ago

A more revelant sailing metaphor for them would be ..
'' If one does not know to which port one is sailing, no wind is favorable''.....
( Lucius Annaeus Seneca...c. 4 BC – AD 65 )

They do love their sailing metaphors don't they.



 
Listener
Listener 3 hours ago

Relying on the wind to guide you isn't going to get you far very quickly and by a direct route.
Are they being directed by a sailboat or God's chariot?
 

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Does the governing body know what they are doing?
by Gefangene 9 hours ago 25 Replies latest 11 minutes ago   watchtower scandals
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Gefangene
Gefangene 9 hours ago

What do you guys think?
Are they only some uber religious zealots or do they pursue hidden agendas beyond religiosity?
 +1 / -0
donny
donny 9 hours ago

I sincerely believe that the G.B, like other leaders of these type of hierarchal groups, know that most of what they peddle is B.S. and it's just an ends to a mean of keeping their flocks safely enclosed in their pens.
 +8 / -0
sparky1
sparky1 9 hours ago

The Governing Body (tm) is composed of god intoxicated, religious zealots who have no hidden agenda, per se. They are self-deluded humans who think that they are carrying out the will of god on earth and feel that they have a 'commission' from god to 'govern' other human beings and thereby save their souls from eternal destruction. Remember that 'most of the evil committed in the world is by people that KNOW that they are right'.
"WE'RE ON A MISSION FROM GOD." - Elwood Blues

 +8 / -0
Brokeback Watchtower
Brokeback Watchtower 8 hours ago

I really feel the GB are delusional, they have some idea of what they are doing as corporation executives they are privy to a lot more info then the average congregation drone but are still under the delusion that they are calling the shots for God's earthly organization.
Their present downsizing due to lack of funds shows that their understanding of how to make this printing company profitable is seriously lacking and headed toward bankruptcy due to their delusional state based on wishful thinking.
 +9 / -0
St George of England
St George of England 8 hours ago

The current GB are mostly from the CO, DO, Missionary type background. They have absolutely no idea, qualifications or experience in the running of a multi-million dollar international organisation.
At least people such as N H Knorr and his mates served their apprenticeship in Bethel, Knorr as Factory Manager prior to being President. Which is why the new guys are leading the organisation into financial bankruptcy having already succeeded in bringing it into spiritual bankruptcy.
George
 +9 / -0
joe134cd
joe134cd 8 hours ago

I actually wonder just how much in control the GB actually are. Are they just figure heads (similar to the Pope) with a group of lawyers and accountants telling them what to do.
 +6 / -0
Anders Andersen
Anders Andersen 8 hours ago

They might know whay they are doing today, but they are completely clueless as for the future consequences of what they do and decide today.
And how could it be any other way when people talk to a non-existing entity to receive unclear guidance...guidance they are supposed to come up with themselves???
 +5 / -0
Vanderhoven7
Vanderhoven7 8 hours ago

Who then is the power behind the throne?
 +3 / -0
prologos
prologos 7 hours ago

look what happened to R. Franz, a devoted man if ever there was one, GB member, backed by family, still he was not at the pinnacle of absolute power. A whole horde of others brought him down.
 +3 / -0
problemaddict 2
problemaddict 2 7 hours ago

I personally believe that the GB are true believers. Like most big corporate machines, the reigns easily get away from them, but they think what they are doing is right and just. All of them are cult members too.
I think recent poor choices in these videos make this even more apparent.

 +3 / -0

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Does the governing body know what they are doing?
by Gefangene 9 hours ago 25 Replies latest 11 minutes ago   watchtower scandals
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Gefangene
Gefangene 6 hours ago

Joe134cd this may be where the rabbit hole runs deeper. There must be other ppl pulling the strings. A friend recently assumed that they may just be marionettes. I also wonder whether they are really true believers.. or if they are just running some kind of show. R. Franz wrote about the way they make decisions over policies and how their articles are being written. It didn't sound like it is really about encouraging and "leading" their followers but more like it is about personal power.
Will we ever know the answers? It's really interesting reading all your opinions. Keep 'em coming :smile:
 +3 / -0
Hecce
Hecce 6 hours ago

I think that every version of WT leaders, including the present GB worked under the assumption that they knew what they were doing. Past history shoes how mistaken they were; the actual leaders didn't participate in building the Empire and they don't have much doubts about dismantling it.
It is very possible, almost a certainty that they are following advice from some outsiders, maybe even commercial advisers. I don't see too much foresight in what they are doing and it is possible that the effects will be seen not by us but by the next generation that will see a complete different religion.
In the process they are discarding the old generation of JWs.
 +2 / -0
sparrowdown
sparrowdown 6 hours ago

I think the GB are delusional narcissists on a power trip, in love with their own refection, as well as the sound of their own voice (which desribes any elder really). They think they are carrying out God's will and they were chosen by Jesus to do so. Which is exactly why they are so dangerous.They are at the top of the pyramid of power and that means they have access to more information than anyone below them, but are they just a false front, useful idiots for some other string-puller?
Who knows and I doubt we will ever know for sure.
 +2 / -0
Calebs Airplane
Calebs Airplane 4 hours ago

Frederick Franz was the architect of all the theocratic drivel that carried the Watchtower into the 21st century. But now, all they have is Splaining Splane and a brain dead writing department (or should I say the Copy & Paste Dept).
 +1 / -0
Wild_Thing
Wild_Thing 4 hours ago

I personally believe that the governing body totally believes their own bull$---. But I also believe that their over inflated sense of importance blinds them to how crazy and arrogant they really are. When they talk about serving "Jehovah" and giving your all to "Jehovah", I'm pretty sure they're talking about themselves.
 
shadow
shadow 4 hours ago

No way that anyone could really believe overlapping generation Doctrine
 +1 / -0
Listener
Listener 2 hours ago

To come up with an idea like the generation teaching show they do have an agenda, but the delusional men justify it. Jesus gave the commission to keep on the watch and they justify their wrong dates and speculation on doing their job of keeping the sheep on the edge of their seats in anticipation. That's why they don't apologize, because they feel they were ultimately doing what they were commissioned and their mistakes are just a means to an end, done with the best of intentions and sincerity.
 
Pete Zahut
Pete Zahut 2 hours ago

In a way, they remind me of rich kids who inherited the family business from their hard working, self sacrificing Grandfather who built the business from the bottom up. They like wearing nice suits, wearing pinky rings, being treated like celebrities wherever they go and they like the idea of being influential businessmen but it sure appears they haven't a clue about what it took to get the organization where it is today.
As I said in another post, they have been given a prestigious job to do and a role to play and have become overly "officious" about it. Since the simpler, grass roots days of the "International Bible Students" the WT organization has taken on a life of it's own. The current leaders are riding along on a freight train that was put in motion back in the day when people were quite gullible about what those in positions of power were really up to. In the early days of the Bible Students, they offered information to the public and answered questions from readers. Before long they began thinking of themselves as the final authority on all things Biblical and that's when this business of running the religion as if were the nation of Israel, began.
Things have changed, printing isn't what it used to be and the general public isn't afraid to ask questions of those in authority. I think todays GB may really believe in what they are doing but their "officiousness" has caused them to become unnecessarily bureaucratic, providing unwanted, unrequested and unnecessary advice and services and they have become meddlesome in their followers personal relationship with God and in their personal lives.

 +1 / -0
LisaRose
LisaRose 2 hours ago

I believe they have deluded themselves and think they speak for God. At the same time they have a vested interest in maintaining their power and prestige in the little pond in which they swim. No doubt they have had do things that would surprise the average JW.
 +1 / -0
Fisherman
Fisherman 2 hours ago

Are they only some uber religious zealots or do they pursue hidden agendas beyond religiosity?
No.

 

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Does the governing body know what they are doing?
by Gefangene 9 hours ago 25 Replies latest 12 minutes ago   watchtower scandals
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oldskool
oldskool an hour ago

To answer this question another one needs addressed first. What exactly should the governing body be doing instead of what it is doing? If we play outside consultant, with only the JW orgs best interest at heart, what would be the advice moving forward?
The first thing you do is go on an info hunt. Top down and bottom up. Financial, but also current values and attitudes present in leaders and members. You identify major problems by speaking with those in leadership roles in addition to current and former members. You assess the limitations, the mistakes along with the strengths, to figure out the most valuable lessons. You run the data and see what it tells you.
I have a gut feeling that this was done, but on the cheap. A generic plan was built for the future without any consideration for the past. I'm not very confident they came up with the JW.org strategy top to bottom on their own. They got guidance from "professionals". Whoever they hired to assist (anybody on the inside find this out?) probably was paid a good bit, but didn't have access to everything they needed for a full comprehensive strategy. The leaders felt desperate, and just went with the plan without consideration to the past.
At this point I think we should all work to find out who they hired to build this strategy for them. Of course they could have come up with this on their own, but on the chance they didn't determining which firm was hired would be an interesting fact to score.
 +1 / -0
DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG an hour ago

How can you NOT know what you are doing, when you deliberately mistranslate Micha 6:8 and base an entire convention, complete with horrible propaganda, on that deliberately mistranslated scripture??
How can you NOT know what you are doing when you meet every Wednesday as "The Faithful Slave", and decide to spend God's money to fight mandatory reporting of child sexual abuse in court, while using "Clergy/Penitent" as your defense?
How can you NOT know what you are doing, when you NEVER cite the source material of quotes in the WT magazine, and borrow interpretations of "worldly", "false religious" beneficiaries of "Satanic" higher education to claim there is no "evil slave?"
How can you NOT know what you are doing, when you are making billions in Real Estate, and dodging taxes, while rebranding and emptying the savings accounts of congregations?!
DD
 +1 / -0
DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG an hour ago

They hired Monica Applewhite. THE END.
DD
 +4 / -0
David_Jay
David_Jay an hour ago

I have to agree with LisaRose.
All people, including each of us, have an instinct that keeps us from second-guessing ourselves. We learn from an early age that fire is hot, gravity will pull us down, eat too much food--even if we like it--will make us sick, etc. Once we establish basic fundamentals we don't second guess these things. We even build on them. Later if someone tries to get us to touch fire, or the equivalent, we won't believe them.
Normally this works out fine. But it can go astray with personal convictions. They don't have to be religious either (take Marxism and Nazism for example). Once we accept something as true and believe we are right, we get entrenched and invested in the idea. Someone comes along and tries to tell us different, we will refuse to believe.
We can all remember some time other than being a JW when we may have stubbornly refused to admit we were wrong. We may have even balked against the best evidence and sat in denial in these cases. Eventually we came around, but it was hard to admit we were wrong, no?
Now remember how convinced we were as Witnesses. What would that have looked like if you had more invested in it than you did? Would any of us have left as comparatively easily as we did?
Now think of the present Governing Body, how far beyond the original plans, hopes, and beliefs they have taken all this. Good grief, it is 2016! Jesus originally "returned" in 1874 and it was supposed to be over in 1914, and it is now far beyond that. Even with the revised "before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes away," that generation basically perished. The original Governing Body is gone. None of them are around. Franz is long dead. They are asking for money in a televangelist format, sold DUMBO, and have a Bible and Tract Society that virtually does not produce printed materials anymore. And on top of that, "overlapping generations"? Overlapping generations, people! What the f#*k?!
Deluding themselves is all they can do now. To think you are leading people astray and that God isn't responsible for making you think up such silly fodder--what is the alternative? Can these humans survive if they suddenly woke up to the reality that they are teaching millions of people stupid things that have no basis in reality? They aren't even good religious beliefs, as far as religion goes. Can the psyche even deal with such crushing acceptance of how wrong and off course you are if you are a GB member who suddenly snapped into realizing the real truth of it all?
 
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 35 minutes ago

Like the story of the "emperors new clothes", they really believe that they blessed with gods backing.....and while ever all witnesses promote and buy into the fallacy, it will just build and build momentum...
All it needs though, is a flurry of people up top to say "hang on...this is just nonsense!"
 
konceptual99
konceptual99 12 minutes ago

Having just watched a number of the RC videos, especially ones like the one set post GT and the bunker videos, I have to say the GB know EXACTLY what they are doing.
They may be deluded but the way the messages are being presented in these slick videos is utterly compelling if your mind is set to be receptive. The production values, music score, storyboard - everything about them - are the most powerful tools they have ever produced IMHO.
A picture tells a thousand words and the level to which the organisation is employing these videos now is evidence that the GB fully understands the impact that this medium can have. They have used stories and threads in images in publications before but the way these videos are interlinked and build towards a highly emotional conclusion is very, very well done and a takes the indoctrination machine to a completely new level.
The organisation used to lambast other religions for being biased towards emotion based worship. They used to sneer at the style over substance content typical of evangelical church services. They had a pride in their encouragement of study, albeit their own bastardisation of real study.
For those of us still attending meetings, have you noted that there is no longer the emphasis on meeting preparation that there once was? Ask yourself when was the last time you heard a talk that emphasised the need to pre-study the Watchtower or prepare for the midweek meeting? No longer do individuals have to come up with presentations, they are given by video then demonstrated by rote. The outline for all talks are there in the meeting workbook, far less scope for brothers to use their own material in instruction talks.
Family worship and high level "research" is still mentioned but the organisation has shamelessly moved from one that prided itself on pseudo academic study of the bible to one where the main method of control and indoctrination is through videos that provoke strong emotional reactions, inspiring responses that condition the mind into belief with zero underlying reason.
I repeat. The GB know EXACTLY what they are doing. They know that the march of time undermines their doctrine. They know the evidence that debunks their religion is a mere mouse click away. They know their religion is unsustainable and that eventually they will contract.
They know that the ONLY way of keeping people hooked in this fast paced society with it's short attention spans and countless distractions is through emotion, though tapping into base feelings that ensure emotional decision making at the cost of logic.
People choose what they want, not what they need. The GB is using every trick in the book now to make people want what they are selling above anything else in their lives.
 

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Religion: Overselling and Under Delivering
by Simon 9 hours ago 2 Replies latest 6 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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Simon
Simon 9 hours ago

If you've worked in any kind of business where one group of people sells things that another group has to deliver as a service, you inevitably run into problems. This is especially true in IT services where poor sales people over-sell things. That is, they can't sell 6 months of work but they can sell 3 months of work or throw in some other promises ... so they do ... and some techy person then gets landed with an impossible task and is viewed as under delivering while the sales-person gets a bonus for their great sales job unless their management is savvy enough (they never are). People selling widgets would never get away with halving the price to make a sale but because it's "services" it's easier to disguise what is happening.
(The solution is to not have such a clean separation and tie evaluation of the sales person's role into successful delivery)
But it got me thinking ...
The WTS and JWs are effectively just another company selling a product - this time it's religion and their belief system and lifestyle. It's often a hard sell because, well, it's a bad product. There are already way more popular and better branded household names on the market for anyone who's looking for that kind of thing that people tend to chose instead.
So the WTS, being the poor-rate sales people they are, did what all poor-rate sales people do when they can't sell something - they started promising extras. Not only do you get the lifestyle and beliefs, now you'll also get paradise ... and not just till the end of your life, no, until the end of time !!!
Of course they don't need to deliver, that's the service delivery teams fault (god).
When even that became a hard sell they created JW-lite, all the same promises but now with only half the commitment!
Like over-promised IT projects that always end in failure (and with all the money long gone of course) so too religion will always be a disappointment and not what buyers were promised, many never realizing that the price they pay is the life they otherwise had to enjoy.
 +4 / -0
donny
donny 9 hours ago

Great post Simon,
If the Society were a real company they would have filed for bankruptsy years ago!
 +3 / -0
Heaven
Heaven 6 hours ago

Religion is legalized fraud.

 +1 / -0

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/ Would Prince Rogers Nelson Have Been A More Effective Spokesperson for JWs Than Stephen Lett?
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Would Prince Rogers Nelson Have Been A More Effective Spokesperson for JWs Than Stephen Lett?
by TMS 9 hours ago 2 Replies latest an hour ago   watchtower beliefs
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TMS
TMS 9 hours ago

Hearing about Governing Body member Stephen Lett, I had to check him out on You Tube. In short, were I still a JW, I would be embarrassed to be represented by this mouth-agape, cornpone, dufus. He would be the kind of public speaker the local congregation might appreciate, but who you would not send out to another congregation.
In contrast, the last few weeks I took the opportunity to play every video on You Tube where the late Prince Rogers Nelson explained his beliefs as a JW. The double standard Prince and other JWs experienced notwithstanding as well as the man's obvious non-JW dress and grooming, Prince fielded questions about JW beliefs and practices 100 times more effectively than Lett.(I believe Cedars collected many of these Prince videos in one segment, although others exist.) I've never heard anyone explain the JW aversion to celebrating birthdays better than Prince. He fielded a question about Barack Obama skillfully as well.
Between the two men, Prince comes off as more genuinely spiritual, Lett as an organizational hack.
 +2 / -0
TMS
TMS an hour ago

It's pretty obvious that no one else in the ex-JW community, particularly those on this forum agree with me that Prince would have been a better representative for the WTBS than Lett.
Of course, this is all theoretical, because Prince Rogers Nelson would never have been selected as part of the GB or even in a J.R. Brown role as a press spokesperson.
Prince joined the JWs after losing his newborn child in whatever year, Fellow musician, Larry Graham, a JW, but, unlike Lett and other goobers on the GB, super smooth in presenting "the truth," converted Prince. Graham might have been the only person on the planet slick enough to convince Prince to be a JW.
It may not be obvious to anyone else on this forum, but had Prince been featured on JW.com broadcasts instead of Stephen Lett, the results would have been drastically different.
 +1 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 an hour ago

Interesting thread.
Of course, no matter how "charismatic" a speaker is, they need to be "spiritually qualified" to be used by the society....
 

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TMS
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Would Prince Rogers Nelson Have Been A More Effective Spokesperson for JWs Than Stephen Lett?
by TMS in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 9 hours ago
hearing about governing body member stephen lett, i had to check him out on you tube.

in short, were i still a jw, i would be embarrassed to be represented by this mouth-agape, cornpone, dufus.

he would be the kind of public speaker the local congregation might appreciate, but who you would not send out to another congregation.. in contrast, the last few weeks i took the opportunity to play every video on you tube where the late prince rogers nelson explained his beliefs as a jw.

TMS
stuckinarut2
an hour ago
Simon
2
Religion: Overselling and Under Delivering
by Simon in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 9 hours ago
if you've worked in any kind of business where one group of people sells things that another group has to deliver as a service, you inevitably run into problems.

this is especially true in it services where poor sales people over-sell things.

that is, they can't sell 6 months of work but they can sell 3 months of work or throw in some other promises ... so they do ... and some techy person then gets landed with an impossible task and is viewed as under delivering while the sales-person gets a bonus for their great sales job unless their management is savvy enough (they never are).

donny
Heaven
6 hours ago
Gefangene
25
Does the governing body know what they are doing?
by Gefangene in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Scandals & Coverups
 10 hours ago
what do you guys think?.

are they only some uber religious zealots or do they pursue hidden agendas beyond religiosity?.

David_Jay
stuckinarut2
konceptual99
16 minutes ago
donny
9
Running ahead of Jehovah can be done with a slow walk.
by donny in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 10 hours ago
a few days ago i read a post of someone who has recently awakened to what the watchtower bible and tract society really is.

in their comments, they stated that they had been accused of "running ahead of jehovah.".

"running ahead of jehovah" was a statement levied at me many times during my convoluted journey through that organization.

Room 215
jaydee
Listener
3 hours ago
bats in the belfry
2
What is it with that foreign accent in the RC videos?
by bats in the belfry in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 12 hours ago
if you believe their written up propaganda, everything is done with a greater purpose in mind.. what's your take on this?.

hoser
bats in the belfry
12 hours ago
jookbeard
2
Kevin the WT anti-hero
by jookbeard in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 13 hours ago
maybe its a bit too early yet to gauge the fall out from the r&f about the sheer lunacy from the rc's "loyalty" videos, any reports so far?

these rc's clearly have pushed the boundaries of sanity even from them and it includes the truly sickening "disfellowshipping" video also.the only real result of these kind of insane video productions is that it will only haemorrhage more of their members didn't they learn from the sparlock the wizard videos?

clearly not, not too worry though kevin made the right decision.

Divergent
jookbeard
12 hours ago
Nicholaus Kopernicus
3
Reflections on John the Baptizer
by Nicholaus Kopernicus in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 16 hours ago
introductionisrael did not have a prophet in its midst for about 400 years.

no, not since the time of malachi where the “old testament ends”.

of his son just after his birth, the priest zechariah says...“but as for you, young child, you will be called a prophet of the most high, for you will go ahead of jehovah to prepare his ways, to give knowledge of salvation to his people by forgiveness of their sins, because of the tender compassion of our god.

Simon
TheLiberator
snowbird
16 hours ago
stephaniejo1998
1
HSC Research project
by stephaniejo1998 in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Blood, Medical Treatment & Depression
 19 hours ago
hey guys, .

please be honest with your answers, this is for my benefit to discover everyones personal beliefs on the topic and how their religion can affect this.. please take the time to fill out this survey, all responses will only be used for educational purposes.. https://docs.google.com/…/1vcaez8fqw3zczlcoevxv6o4mvki…/edit.

stephanie .

cofty
19 hours ago
krejames
1
New RC disfellowshipping video - disgusting
by krejames in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 a day ago
here's a video i think should be getting more publicity that's the so-called anti-gay video.

produced for the 2016 rc.

i find this repulsive.

Crazyguy
21 hours ago
Anders Andersen
6
Dutch branch refuses to meet with LGBT rights organization.
by Anders Andersen in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Scandals & Coverups
 a day ago
in the wake of the anti-gay cartoon, the coc (dutch lgbt rights organization) invited watchtower netherlands to discuss how watchtower is dealing with lgbt people in their ranks.

focus of the meeting would be on making sure lgbt jw feel safe and fully accepted.. today several newspapers are reporting that the branch declined the invitation, stating that they 'can't imagine lgbt jw feeling unsafe.

the branch won't talk to coc, but they might discuss internally with lgbt jw.'.

LoveUniHateExams
Diogenesister
NVR2L8
15 hours ago
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