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The Freedom to Learn
by TheLiberator a day ago 8 Replies latest 2 hours ago   jw experiences
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TheLiberator
TheLiberator a day ago
Since I have left the Watchtower's dung behind, reading and learning has accelerated at an unbelievable pace for me. I am sure that is true for most here. I have always been a big time reader. But now it is an unsatiable thirst. When I was little, I would appreciate a four page article in the Awake! "proving" a creator. I put that in quotes because as I grew older, those four pages never changed. Same reasoning, little science, no detail. My mind needed more. Much, much more. I was sick of the watchmaker story!!
Philosophy was always condemned in the Watchtower. But little did I know about the value of much of it. While I don't run with all of it, I realize that even for a Christian, it can help you reason on things that seem beyond the grasp of humans. It does have it's place. Some of it is very logical.
The Watchtower is as shallow as vomit on the floor. I look through recent magazines just to contemplate the sheer emptiness of it. I get so depressed just thinking about how I accepted it.
When I first read comments on here, I was very enraged with atheists, anti-theists, Bible bashers and so on. It took time for me to adjust. Why not just leave if I hated such talk? Well, unknowingly, it was this environment that turned me into a madman researcher. It moved me to do deeper research. The Watchtower was shallow on EVERY SUBJECT. Whether that be creation, Bible canon, even there own doctrine. I would never allow myself to retreat to such emptiness again. A quick Google search on page 1 would not satisfy me.
This forum has really simplified things for me. Take evolution for example. I did want to research this with honesty. But where would I start? Which book would bring me satisfying answers to my questions? I need detail, not generalizations. I needed more than a simple biology book that describes the basics of evolution. I needed more. Much much more. What has helped me in this regard? Thank you Cofty. I have saved his posts on my phone. He has really done a good job in simplifying the whole thing. I believe if you just study each point, you will have a good picture of what it is all about. I have used each point to further my research. And I am not done. No, I do not use National Geographic as my source for study. I study many of the actual research papers. Then I read the many comments that people share on these sites. I then study the counter arguments in detail. This allows me to dive below the surface of what is being said. And I am absolutely amazed at what I have learned. Classic creation sites are not my sources for study. I use them, to learn there side and then research that.
What I have learned, and I will admit is that Christianity has needed to catch up on what is happening in society. They have needed to catch up on so much of the science of our day. Why have they needed to catch up? It is because not too long ago people in general accepted the Bible as true. Science has accelerated at such a rapid pace just in recent times, that Christianity logically had to catch up with this. But the Watchtower never went beyond itself and its childlike reasoning on matters. But so many Christian apologetics have helped us to catch up on so many things. But even when it comes to these sources, I will not accept generalizations. I do believe that people's misunderstandings about things, makes them look like fools. I don't care if someone believes in evolution or they believe in creation. Both sides have those people that are shallow minded and they don't want to grasp the the understanding of the other side.
To put it simply, being out of the Watchtower and being able to have the freedom to read sites like this has caused my mind to explode with so much knowledge. In fact I have learned so much in the last year that it truly has become like a "burning fire" that I want to share with people. Especially those people in the Watchtower. I want them to know that there is so much out here and there is so much detail that they are lacking.
And so I just wanted to thank everyone for everything that they share on this site. Whether that information is something I immediately agree with or not. Each point has become a starting point for me in my journey to learn more. I have never felt so free.


 +12 / -0
LevelThePlayingField
LevelThePlayingField 13 hours ago
Well Liberator, I commend you on your research. Keep on keeping on. And don't let anyone stop you either. My hats off to you.
 +1 / -0
scary21
scary21 10 hours ago

I feel the same as you. I always loved reading and research. I love coming here to point me in the direction to learn new things.
I also am a firm believer in researching both sides.. You sound like me x 20......good for you !

Sherry

 +1 / -0
Phizzy
Phizzy 8 hours ago

A good Post The Liberator !
I too followed a similar path as soon as I decided to lead an evidence based life. I learned the joy of studying formally forbidden or derided material.
I did learn too that caution has to be used, I came across some "scientific" papers that looked like very good research, peer reviewed etc etc, but on closer examination they had not been published in the usual way, and the peers who were quoted were all academics etc who supported the hypothesis.
These instances are rare, but there is some rubbish about.
Keep it up, and, yes, it is so so good to be truly mentally free !
 +1 / -0
cofty
cofty 8 hours ago

I commend you on your research Liberator.
A week ago you admitted that you were promoting a new religious movement that is "99% Watchtower".
Is your research causing you to doubt some of that?
 +1 / -0
TheLiberator
TheLiberator 5 hours ago

As my post stated, I am still a Christian. My fairh has been strengthen. When you are a Watchtower slave, no need to look anywhere else. My point being, that this place has simplified things as far as what to research. It is so easy to get swept up into naturalism, which is different than science. But when you peel back and dig through what has been accepted by pop culture, you find quite a different story. Even I had never heard of the Jesus/Horus story. Now I literally laugh. Bart Ehrman is another one. By means of careful words he misleads people to draw a conclusion that simply isn't true. It might be technically true, but that is where the devil is. That is the pattern I see when it comes to many lines of thought. Technically true, but not the whole story and that includes the points Cofty has outlined. People go out of the way, spending there whole lives trying to disprove a Creator and the Bible. That speaks volumes. Christianity is such an evidence based faith like no other. I feel it is the most reasonable of the worldviews. What I am finding, is that studying these things has lead to using critical thinking skills on a higher level, due to what I said about pop culture. No need to be fearful of studying any subject. If a person wants to, they can shut out all the"noise" that we are bombarded with, and draw the same conclusion. The Watchtower never gave me the faith I have today.
 +1 / -0
Heartsafire
Heartsafire 4 hours ago
Congrats on digging deep. Keep it up and do spill what you find here. The JWs only teach faith to the Borg when you get right down to it. It gets easier and easier to point out the liberties they take in interpreting and adding to scripture. This WT study was a great example with false scenarios set up through "must have" and "would have" to explain certain biblical passages.
 +1 / -0
GoneAwol
GoneAwol 3 hours ago
"Christianity is such an evidence based faith like no other." yep, still got a LOT of reading to do........
 +2 / -0
Phizzy
Phizzy 2 hours ago
I would recommend " The Bible Unearthed" as a good starting point Liberator.
 

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COLLINS
9
Please I have a question about GNLD INT'L COMPANY
by COLLINS in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 a day ago
please i want to read about experiences of those in this forum regarding those who have worked with golden neo life international company (gnld).

i was searching for job and a man saw me and asked me whether i can do a job that would take me from two years to five years.

so i said yes to him; and he took me to a company called gnld.

ZAPPA-ESQUE
Slidin Fast
zeb
5 hours ago
TheLiberator
8
The Freedom to Learn
by TheLiberator in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Personal Experiences & Reunions
 a day ago
since i have left the watchtower's dung behind, reading and learning has accelerated at an unbelievable pace for me.

i am sure that is true for most here.

i have always been a big time reader.

Heartsafire
GoneAwol
Phizzy
2 hours ago
Freeandclear
7
Moment of awakening?
by Freeandclear in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Personal Experiences & Reunions
 a day ago
i just recalled something from my past that i've not thought about in a very long time, but it did have a significant impact on me whether i knew it or not at the time....... i have a sister who was born when i was 15. my family are not jw's thank the universe!

but me as an uberdub at the time convinced my young sister to have a study.

she was about 14 or 15 at the time i'd guess.

User99
TheLiberator
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3 hours ago
sowhatnow
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what era do you feel like your starting out from?
by sowhatnow in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 a day ago
anyone else feel like they were just woke up from a long coma?

or emerged from a time capsule?.

i mean seriously, its rather creepy and disturbing , some of us are at sea without a compass .. like an orphan, like someone said, , heres a birth certificate go find yourself.

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urghhh... what a disgusting study!7 a conflict of loyalties may arise when a close relative is disfellowshipped.

for example, a sister named anne received a telephone call from her disfellowshipped mother.

the mother wanted to visit anne because she felt pained by her isolation from the family.

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 2 days ago
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.

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goingthruthemotions
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Interesting observation: As time goes on......it seems the jehovah witness will be shortened to JW
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org eventually.. the reason being is because if you do a search on google or youtube for jehovah witness.

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smiddy
3
Make sure your signs have permits.............East Gippsland Shire Council. Vic. Aust.
by smiddy in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 8 hours ago
this is a notice from the shire in which i live .. "signs placed on naturestrips ,roadsides ,and other public land require a permit from the shire which has identified locations in each town where signs can be erected once a permit is granted .. their is a photo of heaps of signs that have been impounded that don`t have a permit.. and i would imagine their is a cost involved in this.. would that be a valid reason , the cost , that i don`t ever see a witnessing cart/trolley in my shire ?.

smiddy.

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reading the recent thread about first talks reminded me of when i was new on the school.. i was around 8 and had to read the chapter that mentions 'sucking king's breasts'.

we got there late and somebody else was giving it.

boy was i secretly relieved.

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10
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 15 hours ago
i bumped in this story this afternoon.

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Are JWs now encouraged to volunteer?
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 » Personal Experiences & Reunions
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after i retired i volunteered for several community service programs, including working with the local food bank.

every fourth thursday of each month i help out in distributing food to needy families at the local veterans building.

i've been helping out for five years now.

loneranger
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3 hours ago
Gorbatchov
4
Watchtower staff negotiating with Cuban governmental officials - picture
by Gorbatchov in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 18 hours ago
maybe not relevant today, here a picture of jw.org staff negotiating with cuban governmental officials.

in the 90's, from my deep storage archive.

.

LevelThePlayingField
Hecce
Gorbatchov
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Gorbatchov
9
Watchtower Lawyer speaking in US Congres commission - picture
by Gorbatchov in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 18 hours ago
maybe not relevant today, just sharing one of my archive storage, this picture of jw.org lawyer philip brumley, in a joint project with scientology and other religions in 2006.. the picture was published on a scientology website, mentioning the joint project with jw.org .

.

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Londo111
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kairos
15
Want to have your entire concept of 'history, time and civilization' challenged?
by kairos in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 21 hours ago
please spend a couple hours and get yourself familiar with the ancient structures at petra.. we live in a civilization of deceit.it's becoming harder to sort fact from fiction as i keep looking behind all of the curtains..

Mephis
kairos
Mephis
14 hours ago
Captain Schmideo2
9
My son has a very significant interview today..
by Captain Schmideo2 in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 21 hours ago
he is just days away from graduation with his bachelor's in english, and today, he has an interview with a recruiter for an agency that help with finding teaching positions in south korea.. i took it upon myself to research the company and his interviewer, and it's been high marks all around on both of them.

so that's a great ease on my mind.i just hope the interview (over the phone) goes well, and results in the next steps to getting a position.my son spent a month in seoul last summer, an loved the place.

he has friends out there as well, including a young man that he attended classes with here in the states, so i think that's a real plus in taking this very giant leap.when i was his age, i was slowly working my way through a two year degree, still living at home, and aspiring to nothing more than a job as a repairman.

Robo Bobo
Funchback
Captain Schmideo2
18 hours ago
COLLINS
9
Please I have a question about GNLD INT'L COMPANY
by COLLINS in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 a day ago
please i want to read about experiences of those in this forum regarding those who have worked with golden neo life international company (gnld).

i was searching for job and a man saw me and asked me whether i can do a job that would take me from two years to five years.

so i said yes to him; and he took me to a company called gnld.

ZAPPA-ESQUE
Slidin Fast
zeb
5 hours ago
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 256,021 posts in  11,881 topics

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 627 posts in  70 topics




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Old books!
by arwen 13 minutes ago 2 Replies latest 12 minutes ago   jw friends
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arwen
arwen 13 minutes ago
Found some old books of my ex. Really old. Any suggestions?? Is it worth eBay? Or dump them?
 
Anders Andersen
Anders Andersen 13 minutes ago
Which titles?
 
dbq407
dbq407 12 minutes ago
ebay them, i'm sure they are worth something.
 

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Started

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Replies
arwen
2
Old books!
by arwen in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 14 minutes ago
found some old books of my ex.

any suggestions??

is it worth ebay?

Anders Andersen
dbq407
13 minutes ago
smiddy
3
Make sure your signs have permits.............East Gippsland Shire Council. Vic. Aust.
by smiddy in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 9 hours ago
this is a notice from the shire in which i live .. "signs placed on naturestrips ,roadsides ,and other public land require a permit from the shire which has identified locations in each town where signs can be erected once a permit is granted .. their is a photo of heaps of signs that have been impounded that don`t have a permit.. and i would imagine their is a cost involved in this.. would that be a valid reason , the cost , that i don`t ever see a witnessing cart/trolley in my shire ?.

smiddy.

carla
carla
atomant
5 hours ago
The Rebel
6
The question of who man/woman actually is...
by The Rebel in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 9 hours ago
naturally leads to the question of god.

why does man need god?

why does man create god?

The Rebel
Lieu
The Rebel
4 hours ago
neat blue dog
2
Funny stories about risque bible stories
by neat blue dog in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Personal Experiences & Reunions
 13 hours ago
reading the recent thread about first talks reminded me of when i was new on the school.. i was around 8 and had to read the chapter that mentions 'sucking king's breasts'.

we got there late and somebody else was giving it.

boy was i secretly relieved.

James Mixon
Mandrake
11 hours ago
wannaexit
11
Bad things happen in spiritual paradise
by wannaexit in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 15 hours ago
i bumped in this story this afternoon.

it's about a family of jw's.

it's an unbelievable story of murder that took place in 2014.. so much for spiritual paradise.. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=dateline+tangled.

Lieu
Doubtfully Yours
steve2
a minute ago
Athanasius
13
Are JWs now encouraged to volunteer?
by Athanasius in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Personal Experiences & Reunions
 17 hours ago
after i retired i volunteered for several community service programs, including working with the local food bank.

every fourth thursday of each month i help out in distributing food to needy families at the local veterans building.

i've been helping out for five years now.

loneranger
James Mixon
Doubtfully Yours
3 hours ago
Gorbatchov
4
Watchtower staff negotiating with Cuban governmental officials - picture
by Gorbatchov in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 18 hours ago
maybe not relevant today, here a picture of jw.org staff negotiating with cuban governmental officials.

in the 90's, from my deep storage archive.

.

LevelThePlayingField
Hecce
Gorbatchov
10 hours ago
Gorbatchov
9
Watchtower Lawyer speaking in US Congres commission - picture
by Gorbatchov in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 18 hours ago
maybe not relevant today, just sharing one of my archive storage, this picture of jw.org lawyer philip brumley, in a joint project with scientology and other religions in 2006.. the picture was published on a scientology website, mentioning the joint project with jw.org .

.

Gorbatchov
Londo111
Watchtower-Free
3 hours ago
kairos
15
Want to have your entire concept of 'history, time and civilization' challenged?
by kairos in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 21 hours ago
please spend a couple hours and get yourself familiar with the ancient structures at petra.. we live in a civilization of deceit.it's becoming harder to sort fact from fiction as i keep looking behind all of the curtains..

Mephis
kairos
Mephis
14 hours ago
Captain Schmideo2
9
My son has a very significant interview today..
by Captain Schmideo2 in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 21 hours ago
he is just days away from graduation with his bachelor's in english, and today, he has an interview with a recruiter for an agency that help with finding teaching positions in south korea.. i took it upon myself to research the company and his interviewer, and it's been high marks all around on both of them.

so that's a great ease on my mind.i just hope the interview (over the phone) goes well, and results in the next steps to getting a position.my son spent a month in seoul last summer, an loved the place.

he has friends out there as well, including a young man that he attended classes with here in the states, so i think that's a real plus in taking this very giant leap.when i was his age, i was slowly working my way through a two year degree, still living at home, and aspiring to nothing more than a job as a repairman.

Robo Bobo
Funchback
Captain Schmideo2
18 hours ago
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Discuss anything Jehovahs Witness or WatchTower society related and meet new friends
 4,057,803 posts in  124,822 topics

Personal Experiences & Reunions
Lost touch with old friends from your old congregation? Find them here!
 256,021 posts in  11,881 topics

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Fair punishmnet for a "sin"?
by stuckinarut2 4 days ago 5 Replies latest 3 days ago   watchtower bible
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stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 4 days ago



 
LevelThePlayingField
LevelThePlayingField 4 days ago
I don't know. I agree with the apologists. I think David was in the wrong. Simple.
 
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 4 days ago
But even if he was, did 70,000 men plus women and children need to die for it?
 +1 / -0
LevelThePlayingField
LevelThePlayingField 3 days ago
To be honest, I struggle with this too. It doesn't seem fair that there is a complete slaughter of people for just taking a census.
 
OneEyedJoe
OneEyedJoe 3 days ago

To be honest, I struggle with this too. It doesn't seem fair that there is a complete slaughter of people for just taking a census.

Even disregarding that death isn't a fair punishment for a census, it's insane to think that the death of anyone other than the person committing the crime is even remotely close to a fair punishment. So what if David was in the wrong? If so, he should have died, not the innocent. It's plain and simple. The fact that anyone can try to justify that account is abhorrent to me.
 
Barrold Bonds
Barrold Bonds 3 days ago

It is very interesting how David got away with all sorts of shit. There's stories in the Bible of people being killed by God for the slightest infraction, even accidental things.
David did all sorts of awful stuff and got away with it. Everyone else but him paid the price for it.
oh wait it's all make believe. who cares lol
 +1 / -0

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Would you have done what Adam did?
by thinker11 3 days ago 14 Replies latest 2 days ago   watchtower bible
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thinker11
thinker11 3 days ago

I personally feel like I might have done the same thing Adam did when Eve offered him the fruit. When she offered him the fruit, he probably knew she already ate the fruit and in his mind:

There were 2 choices that Adam was faced with in that moment:
1) Reject Eve’s fruit and live forever on a paradise earth without your soul mate that you grew to love and respect.
2) Take the risk and live another 900 or something years with the love of your life.
Personally, considering we should love our wives as we would as our own body, I find that choosing #1 might be the more noble thing to do. I feel that God should understand if a husband were to love his wife more than anything else in the world? I mean, you become one with your wife, do you not?
Anyways, just an interesting thought I wanted to share. Laters zz. Personally who knows, maybe Adam would have told the snake to go away and maybe that’s why he went to Eve first. I Wish there were more details, it would really help people not argue over the stories of the bible so much.
 +2 / -0
JW_Rogue
JW_Rogue 3 days ago

There were 2 choices that Adam was faced with in that moment:
1) Reject Eve’s fruit and live forever on a paradise earth without your soul mate that you grew to love and respect.
2) Take the risk and live another 900 or something years with the love of your life.
Choose #1 and see what other perfect creations God can make LOL
 
Lieu
Lieu 3 days ago

For all we know, Eve was only there 1 week before "the incident". She had to be relatively new off the rib if she didn't think a talking snake was odd.
But no. We're I Adam, I would have told her to put the fruit back and if any creatures speak to you stomp them.
 
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 3 days ago


Choose #1 and see what other perfect creations God can make LOL.....JW_Rogue
.............................Image result for chimp in a bikini
 +2 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 3 days ago

Why are people living thousands of years later paying the price for their choices??
If the wages for sin is death, then Adam paid his price already...why do we all have the debt still?
 +4 / -0
prologos
prologos 2 days ago

The art of dinner conversations obviously developed later. Since his was the first threefold bond ( according to wt talk outlines) and Jah talked to them directly, why not the trio to have had a real discussion over the fruit plate about that,-- with all the scenarios (prophecies) laid out? It was not about continuing sex. That co-pulation  would have happened whether Adam ate or not. Had he not eaten, his would have been eternal sex with another perfect woman, ( a possible x-generation grand-ggg overlapping generation daughter) --for a perfect Jesus was produced out of mary, the "second Eve" so to speak. Perfect daughters would have born to eve.
It is amazing what results, when you have a story that insults your intelligence. Talking snake and the creator walking in the garden in the breeze. cheese!
 
2+2=5
2+2=5 2 days ago

Maybe at that breezy time of day when Jehovah of Perverts was known to be out spying on his naked primate creations, instead of covering his genitals and hiding, Adam could have played it cool and just stayed full nude.
 +1 / -0
Dunedain
Dunedain 2 days ago

I have often thought about this exact scenario. One thing that I find, wrong with it, and there are many, is that really Adam, and especially Eve, were almost like children. They really had NO life experience. They were NOT even parents at this stage of the game.
If Adam was created as a perfect MAN, then he never had time to grow, and learn from childhood up. If you think about it, just because he was physically a "man", he would have been mentally an "infant" when first created. Logically the same would apply for Eve as well.
They were children, and the Genesis story heavily implies that the eating of the fruit occurred pretty early in the narrative. This again, gives tons of credence to the fact that both Adam and Eve were mere CHILDREN.
Who, and or what, was ALL these children knew? Well it was GOD himself. God was Daddy. God was Mommy. God raised them from creation, and taught them EVERYTHING.
Well, evidently, it seems as though he did a poor job. The FIRST time, a trial was put before them, they failed miserably. Can you imagine the first time your young child makes a serious mistake, you kicked them out of the house, and cursed them.
Adam and Eve, according to the Genesis narrative, were simply children, who were DECEIVED, and had NO knowledge of anything other than their creator. Sounds like a VERY harsh punishment for 2 innocent children, who were deceived by a being that was perhaps BILLIONS of years older than them, and of not only a higher intelligence, but was actually a HIGHER LIFEFORM.
The sicker thing about it, is that WE are paying the price, and WE were NOT even born perfect, and our lives are supposedly still being "deceived" by these billion year old, higher lifeforms, called angels/demons. DAMN, what chance do ANY have against this ?????

 +5 / -0
berrygerry
berrygerry 2 days ago

Summoning Blondie -
I remember comments to the effect that Adam should have had faith in Sky-J that He would have created a substitute to replace the seduced Eve.
Any recollections to such a reference?

 
smiddy
smiddy 2 days ago

If I was Adam I would have gone straight to the tree of life and ate from that , stuff the tree of knowledge of good and bad , that would have become evident living forever. What a dickhead Adam was  , I thought he was perfect.
smiddy
 

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Would you have done what Adam did?
by thinker11 3 days ago 14 Replies latest 2 days ago   watchtower bible
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berrygerry
berrygerry 2 days ago

Dr. Suess in his full-blown dementia years, responds:

After a long pause, Kham said: “I agree that you can’t build a good house on a poor foundation, and God was building more than a house—he was building a world of billions of people, and loyalty to the owner would be vital. Why, that’s what is wrong with this world! There is no common loyalty to someone who has a right to it. Why, even I can see that, and I am just beginning to believe in a God!” “But look here, Kham,” interrupted Oi. “Did you notice what it says here? The serpent—that’s the Devil, by the way—said to the woman: ‘You will not die because God knows that on eating from the tree your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and bad.’” Kham looked puzzled. “I don’t quite see the point here.” “Well,” said Oi, “wasn’t the Devil in effect saying to that woman that God was lying to her in order to keep her in subjection and that she could be independent of God and make her own rules?”

Kham went silent for a long time, but he was thinking about what he had read. It gave him a new slant on the cause of misery and suffering, and more important, a way out. His mind went back to the time he had read those letters from his father. At first he had been exhilarated, but afterward he felt a bigger void than ever before. He felt he had just had a glimpse or a taste of something that had whetted his appetite and no more; leaving him with a yearning for something he could not define, for answers to questions he could not formulate. He still remembered the time before he was married, when he had been very unhappy. He had never contemplated suicide, as many did, but he had felt that life was really miserable, with no way out. He had read, or been told—he could not remember which—that this life with its miseries was repayment for individual sins committed in a previous life. But he wondered about that. It seemed contrary to justice. Why, he could not even remember what he had done wrong in his own previous life—and yet he was now being punished for it! It was like being sent to jail and yet not being told what law he had broken. How could justice enforce punishment if the punishment in itself was not just? How could he avoid repeating those sins if he did not even know what they were? It had all seemed to leave him with a sense of futility and hopelessness, with no one to call on for help. Now he realized what the yearning was. It was for a source of help and enlightenment. Reading those generous and stimulating letters from his father had sharpened his awareness of the need of help from outside. That letter from God that he had just been reading had begun to satisfy that yearning. He sensed a degree of happiness that he had never had before. It could become a permanent feature of life, never to be marred by sickness or death—if only those letters were actually from the Creator.
“I was just pondering,” said Kham after a long period of silence, “over what you mentioned earlier that those girls had told you: that man was made to live on the earth. Well, what we have just been reading bears that out. As the human family grew, that original garden would have been enlarged gradually until the whole earth would have become a garden. The fact that the first man and woman were cast out of the gardenized portion seems to show that they had lost the privilege of even temporarily staying in that perfected, or should we say tamed, portion of the earth, but were permitted to live for a while in the untamed part.” “True,” replied Oi, “they were cast out of God’s family and lived on the earth like squatters. But you see what it says next, that ‘they had children.’ What would their standing be in God’s sight?” “I suppose they would just be squatters like Adam and Eve,” said Kham, “and would be tainted with the rebellious attitude of their parents, although they hadn’t each personally rejected God.” “That’s true,” agreed Oi, “and Jehovah, who is such a merciful God, has promised to provide a way for these squatter children to have their taint covered over and to be brought back into his family so that he becomes their Father.” “So that’s what you meant by finding a Father, Oi. Mankind would cease to be squatters and join God’s family.

 +1 / -0
Freeandclear
Freeandclear 2 days ago

Well of course all of this is just fairy tail nonsense but here is my thought.
I've always thought of Adam and Eve as the greatest love story ever told.
A man loved a woman more than anything else, even eternal life and happiness and was willing to give that all away to be with her. Pretty powerful actually. But again, just a made up story.
There is no God, or if there is It's certainly not a God who cares at all about what we do or what we believe since no crystal clear direction has been given.
 +1 / -0
prologos
prologos 2 days ago

FaC: "--A man loved a woman more than anything else, even eternal life and happiness and was willing to give that all away to be with her. Pretty powerful actually. But again, just a made up story.
sounds romantic, but he could have continued to be with her even without eating too. right? after all, she probably also lived into her late 900 erts . or? do you think that the lady attached an ultimatum to the deal, unless you eat, I am going to treat you as when you don't take out the garbage, remember!?
Would I have, , personally? No. two wrongs do not make a right.


 
OnTheWayOut
OnTheWayOut 2 days ago

My take on the Garden story is that the writer was trying to convey the thought that God was actually withholding something from the pair and the snake did not lie to Eve. That makes Eve right to partake. Why would God want humans to remain ignorant of "good and bad" unless He wanted them to be slaves or puppets?
They did not die that day, they gained a knowledge.
 
aintenoughwiskey
aintenoughwiskey 2 days ago
If eve was pregnant when she ate the fruit, and adam abstained, we might have two races of humans. Mortal and immortal.

 +2 / -0

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Topic Summary
every religious group know the story of adam & eve.
for me, i understood what they did was wrong but i never felt they were bad people and considering that they never murdered anyone and seemed to live normal lives after being kicked out, i found it hard to accept that they deserved to die forever and that we would be responsible for suffering for their mistakes.
i personally feel like i might have done the same thing adam did when eve offered him the fruit.



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Russell's chronology was right after all!
by Vanderhoven7 3 days ago 22 Replies latest 16 hours ago   watchtower bible
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Vanderhoven7
Vanderhoven7 3 days ago

The Kingdom of God is already begun, which is pointed out in prophecy as due to begin the exercise of power in A.D. 1878, and that the "battle of the great day of God Almighty" which will end in 1914 with the complete overthrow of the earth's present rulership, is already commenced.

I just did the math....and Russell was right. Christ returned invisibly in 1874 and took rulership (restored kingdom reign) in 1878.
2520 years minus 607 when Jerusalem was destroyed = 1913 (accounting for no year zero) = 1914
That`s 2520 - 607 = 2014
But wait, that`s 2520 prophetic years of 360 days, not solar days of 365.25 days. To convert to solar days then one must multuiply 2520 x 365.25 which gives us 2,484 actual years. Then we subtract 607 and guess what....
2484 - 607 = 1877 (accounting for no year zero) = 1878
So as Russell preached, Christ has been reigning since 1878.
 +1 / -0
DesirousOfChange
DesirousOfChange 3 days ago

one must multuiply 2520 x 365.25 which gives us 2,484
Do you work for the US Gov't accounting office?
This could explain why no one in Washington seems aware of the huge deficit or national debt.
(On the other hand, I think most JWs would buy into this line of reasoning if were printed in the WT...................................... "Oh! That makes sense!"......."New Light")

Doc

 +1 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 3 days ago

So Armageddon happened already in 1914 dam it I wanted to see that , all those balls of fire raining down from the sky in all. It would been really cool to see.
Maybe Jah will do it again if we did something really bad ???

 
OnTheWayOut
OnTheWayOut 3 days ago

I am confident that there are any number of Bible dates and rules to apply and come up with any convenient date for the Great Tribulation or the second coming or Armageddon. It's magic.
It helps to pluck 607 BCE out of thin air. How can one argue with such a date? Well- except for this: The Book GENTILE TIMES RECONSIDERED.
 +2 / -0
baker
baker 3 days ago
Its an overlapping Armegeddon , one in 1914 and another one to happen just around the corner...
 +4 / -0
redpilltwice
redpilltwice 3 days ago

Baker..."overlapping Armegeddon[sic]"
Everything is possible within the recent tsunami of "new light" lol
 +2 / -0
sir82
sir82 3 days ago


one must multuiply 2520 x 365.25 which gives us 2,484
Do you work for the US Gov't accounting office?
LOL.
Figured out what he's doing.
2520 * 360 / 365.25 = 2484 after rounding.

 +1 / -0
Vanderhoven7
Vanderhoven7 3 days ago

Studies in the Scriptures Vol.2, 1906 p.101
The Kingdom of God is already begun, which is pointed out in prophecy as due to begin the exercise of power in A.D. 1878, and that the "battle of the great day of God Almighty" which will end in 1914 with the complete overthrow of the earth's present rulership, is already commenced.
Let me express the calculations more accurately:
The 1914 date as the date for the beginning of Christ`s rule was determined as follows:
2520 years minus 607 when Jerusalem was destroyed = 1913 (accounting for no year zero) = 1914
The problem is the 2520 years were lunar 360 day years totaling .... (2520 x 360) = 907,200 days
To convert prophetic lunar years to solar years we divide those 907,200 days by 365.25 and that gives us 2,484 actual years. Then we subtract 607 actual years to determine when Christ rule began
2484 years minus 607 when Jerusalem was destroyed = 1877 (accounting for no year zero) = 1878



Now we all should once again adopt Pastor Russell`s correct date of 1878 as the date when Jesus began his rulership and the kingdom of heaven was restored..






 
LV101
LV101 3 days ago

Good one DOC, re/deficit/debt!
 
JACOB Meza
JACOB Meza 3 days ago
Is Vanderhoven being sarcastic?
 +1 / -0

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Russell's chronology was right after all!
by Vanderhoven7 3 days ago 22 Replies latest 16 hours ago   watchtower bible
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sparky1
sparky1 3 days ago



"You can bet your ass that A.D.1878 is the year that Christ will begin his heavenly rule. These are God's dates and not my own. I couldn't change them if I wanted to." - C.T. Russell 'That faithful and wise servant'
 +1 / -0
opusdei1972
opusdei1972 3 days ago
What was Jesus doing before 1878?...too many injustices were committed in the world and continued to happen after that year. If that is his kingdom, I prefer to be agnostic.

 
Vanderhoven7
Vanderhoven7 2 days ago
Humph...I suppose no one has ever examined Pastor Russell's 88 proofs that Jesus returned on October 22nd 1874 and began ruling in the heavens 31/2 years later in April 1878. Just check the calculations.
 
Vanderhoven7
Vanderhoven7 2 days ago
Jacob... :wink:
 
Terry
Terry 2 days ago

Pastor Russell pointed to 1799 as the beginning of the “time of the end,” not 1914. For Russell 1914 was the end of the Gentile Times and the end of the time of trouble.
in 1879, he started publishing Zion’s Watch Tower and Herald of Christ’s Presence (not coming).
The rapture was to take place in 1878. When it failed to transpire, Russell split with Barbour and went off on his own.

(http://pastorrussell.blogspot.com/2010/06/pastor-russell-and-henry-dunn-1801-1878.html)
Russell believed that Christ had returned invisibly in 1874 and that he had been ruling from the heavens since that date.
He predicted that a period known as the "Gentile Times" would end in 1914 and that Christ would assume power of Earth's affairs at that time. He interpreted the outbreak of World War I as the beginning of Armageddon.




 
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 2 days ago


2520 years minus 607 when Jerusalem was destroyed = 1913 (accounting for no year zero) = 1914
That`s 2520 - 607 = 2014
But wait, that`s 2520 prophetic years of 360 days, not solar days of 365.25 days. To convert to solar days then one must multuiply 2520 x 365.25 which gives us 2,484 actual years. Then we subtract 607 and guess what....
2484 - 607 = 1877 (accounting for no year zero) = 1878
Image result for heresy..Image result for numerology
 
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 2 days ago

Its bit funny and nostalgic in the realization that the JWS (the only true religion) was started by false but alluring doctrines commercialized by studiously corrupt late 19th century charlatans, running their own publishing house.

 
Mephis
Mephis 2 days ago
The measurements of the pyramid confirm the date of 1878. We know this because there's a groove cut in one of them which Pastor Russell says is 1878 inches long. How loving of Jehovah to make such an accurate witness to Biblical prophetic truth, and in a unit of measurement which didn't even exist at the time of the pyramid's construction.
 
Vidiot
Vidiot a day ago
All the math in the OP gave me a headache.
 
LoveUniHateExams
LoveUniHateExams a day ago

Russell's chronology was right after all!
Yes, bible prophecy involving numbers and dates is so clear and easy to understand, isn't it ...
 

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Topic Summary
the kingdom of god is already begun, which is pointed out in prophecy as due to begin the exercise of power in a.d. 1878, and that the "battle of the great day of god almighty" which will end in 1914 with the complete overthrow of the earth's present rulership, is already commenced.. i just did the math....and russell was right.
christ returned invisibly in 1874 and took rulership (restored kingdom reign) in 1878.. 2520 years minus 607 when jerusalem was destroyed = 1913 (accounting for no year zero) = 1914. that`s 2520 - 607 = 2014. but wait, that`s 2520 prophetic years of 360 days, not solar days of 365.25 days.
to convert to solar days then one must multuiply 2520 x 365.25 which gives us 2,484 actual years.



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Russell's chronology was right after all!
by Vanderhoven7 3 days ago 22 Replies latest 16 hours ago   watchtower bible
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Finkelstein
Finkelstein a day ago

One thing you can come to a reflective conclusion about is that for organized religion to work such as the Jehovah's Witnesses, is that you have to lie little to make it functionally happen.

The Watchtower Publishing house made its religion work by placing Jesus has returned (1914) and mankind is now living in the last days on the front cover of many of its publications. Very alluring of a broad based statement to make but short on honesty in adherence to bible scripture.

 
Vanderhoven7
Vanderhoven7 18 hours ago

Vidiot
Sorry I was rushed when writing the OP. I corrected the math in a subsequent post as follows:
The 1914 date as the date for the beginning of Christ`s rule was determined as follows:
2520 years minus 607 when Jerusalem was destroyed = 1913 (accounting for no year zero) = 1914
The problem is the 2520 years were lunar 360 day years totaling .... (2520 x 360) = 907,200 days
To convert prophetic lunar years to solar years we divide those 907,200 days by 365.25 and that gives us 2,484 actual years. Then we subtract 607 actual years to determine when Christ rule began
2484 years minus 607 when Jerusalem was destroyed = 1877 (accounting for no year zero) = 1878

 
xelder
xelder 16 hours ago
did anyone inform god? because as usual, he has been a no show.  he must have missed that memo.
 +1 / -0

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Topic Summary
the kingdom of god is already begun, which is pointed out in prophecy as due to begin the exercise of power in a.d. 1878, and that the "battle of the great day of god almighty" which will end in 1914 with the complete overthrow of the earth's present rulership, is already commenced.. i just did the math....and russell was right.
christ returned invisibly in 1874 and took rulership (restored kingdom reign) in 1878.. 2520 years minus 607 when jerusalem was destroyed = 1913 (accounting for no year zero) = 1914. that`s 2520 - 607 = 2014. but wait, that`s 2520 prophetic years of 360 days, not solar days of 365.25 days.
to convert to solar days then one must multuiply 2520 x 365.25 which gives us 2,484 actual years.



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After yesterdays shunning watchtower article
by dbq407 3 hours ago 5 Replies latest 8 minutes ago   watchtower bible
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dbq407
dbq407 3 hours ago

Matthew 6:15 are Jesus' own words on how to deal with a sinner
15 “If your brother or sister[b] sins,[c] go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’[d] 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.



Never once does it mention to shun them. Jesus sat down with tax collectors.



Luke 6:37 are also Jesus' words and says not to judge
37 “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38 Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”



Yet we have a "judicial" committee to judge a person.



So the scripture they use from 1 corinthians is totally against what jesus says. Maybe the apostle Paul was an early apostate? Ha, just my $.02
 +3 / -0
disposable hero of hypocrisy
disposable hero of hypocrisy 2 hours ago

Add to that Jesus words again at Matthew 5 : 43-47 where he tells his followers to love their enemies, and if they greet only their own brothers they're no better than the people of the nations and the tax collectors as they do that also.
But no, we actually mandate that we are NOT to even greet any exjws.
Whatever. Watchtards.
 +4 / -0
ToesUp
ToesUp an hour ago
After yesterdays WT study, it confirmed again, we made the right decision to exit this religion. What a hateful, unforgiving, judgmental and hypocritical cult!
 +4 / -0
dbq407
dbq407 20 minutes ago

Add to that Jesus words again at Matthew 5 : 43-47

thank you for that scripture also. I plan on using these in the near future.
 
steve2
steve2 18 minutes ago

The same Watchtower urges Witnesses to turn a brother or sister in to the elders if that one is committing serious sin.
This is a recipe for becoming a busy-body and having a low threshold for "evidence" against one's fellow believers. We know what happens in local congregations, especially among more simple-minded JWs: Mere suspicion becomes evidence another brother or sister mudt be committing serious sin.
How this sort of tittle-tattle advice is played out in individual congregations is the very stuff the JW lifestyle thrives on in the most miserable ways imaginable.
 +1 / -0
Darkknight757
Darkknight757 8 minutes ago

I can't imagine how this will all be played out at Barffest 2016 R.C. All this talk of loyalty will hopefully turn more away from this cult.
Just glad the wife and I skipped the meeting yesterday. That wt article was bowel batter.
 +1 / -0

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Bible Research & Study Articles
Critical analysis of the WatchTower Bible & Tract Society publications and the bible
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dbq407
4
After yesterdays shunning watchtower article
by dbq407 in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 3 hours ago
matthew 6:15 are jesus' own words on how to deal with a sinner.

15 “if your brother or sister[b] sins,[c] go and point out their fault, just between the two of you.

if they listen to you, you have won them over.

ToesUp
dbq407
steve2
18 minutes ago
Crazyguy
4
Crazy timeline of the bible.
by Crazyguy in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 8 hours ago
it's interesting to me anyway to see what the bible says the timeline of mankind is in relation to reality.

abraham was born roughly 2000 bce .

let's think about this for a moment.

Half banana
Terry
Crazyguy
an hour ago
Crazyguy
Another bible story apparently plagerized from an older story.
by Crazyguy in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 a day ago
we are all familiar with the story of the god jehovah saving jerusalem from the assyrians by sending and angel that killed 185000 soldier's.

well heradodus a 5 century bce historian related a story he heard from egyptian priests.

they told him that the god ptah sent rats into the camp of the assyrians which ate the bow strings of the troops and they then left in dismay, saving egypt.

Noble Lion
2
According to the Bible, the Watchtower is *NOT* the Faithful and Discreet Slave
by Noble Lion in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 a day ago
anyway, i know a lot of people here, just about everyone in fact, knows that the watchtower claims to be the faithful and discreet slave.

now any sensible christian knows jesus was speaking metaphorically.

a parable if you will.

Crazyguy
DATA-DOG
a day ago
James Mixon
1
Birthday and Baby showers a joint celebration????
by James Mixon in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 2 days ago
jw's go way out on a baby shower they don't have a lot of occasion to celebrate, but what's.

the difference in celebrating a birth and the child birthday?.

zeb
2 days ago
biblexaminer
2
Watchtower's upcoming teaching
by biblexaminer in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 2 days ago
newest watchtower revelations from heaven indicate the importance of color in teaching the truth about god.. the governing body has prayed fervently over this new teaching and jehovah's witnesses the world around receive it gratefully as "food at the proper time".. in view of the importance placed on color, as found in god's holy word the bible, the governing body has deemed it necessary for a new understanding on important spiritual matters.

(see link).... http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200001009?q=color&p=par.

we can see from the aforementioned information that color in the scriptures should not be neglected, as it plays a vital role in understanding god's plan for mankind.

biblexaminer
Darkknight757
2 days ago
thinker11
14
Would you have done what Adam did?
by thinker11 in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 3 days ago
every religious group know the story of adam & eve.

for me, i understood what they did was wrong but i never felt they were bad people and considering that they never murdered anyone and seemed to live normal lives after being kicked out, i found it hard to accept that they deserved to die forever and that we would be responsible for suffering for their mistakes.

i personally feel like i might have done the same thing adam did when eve offered him the fruit.

prologos
OnTheWayOut
aintenoughwiskey
2 days ago
Vanderhoven7
22
Russell's chronology was right after all!
by Vanderhoven7 in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 3 days ago
the kingdom of god is already begun, which is pointed out in prophecy as due to begin the exercise of power in a.d. 1878, and that the "battle of the great day of god almighty" which will end in 1914 with the complete overthrow of the earth's present rulership, is already commenced.. i just did the math....and russell was right.

christ returned invisibly in 1874 and took rulership (restored kingdom reign) in 1878.. 2520 years minus 607 when jerusalem was destroyed = 1913 (accounting for no year zero) = 1914. that`s 2520 - 607 = 2014. but wait, that`s 2520 prophetic years of 360 days, not solar days of 365.25 days.

to convert to solar days then one must multuiply 2520 x 365.25 which gives us 2,484 actual years.

Finkelstein
Vanderhoven7
xelder
16 hours ago
stuckinarut2
5
Fair punishmnet for a "sin"?
by stuckinarut2 in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 4 days ago https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3k0rgmr4zk

LevelThePlayingField
OneEyedJoe
Barrold Bonds
3 days ago
Darkknight757
15
Jonah's success, J-dubs failure in preaching.
by Darkknight757 in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 6 days ago
3:1 then the word of the lord came to jonah a second time: 2 “go to the great city of nineveh and proclaim to it the message i give you.”3 jonah obeyed the word of the lord and went to nineveh.

now nineveh was a very large city; it took three days to go through it.

4 jonah began by going a day’s journey into the city, proclaiming, “forty more days and nineveh will be overthrown.” 5 the ninevites believed god.

Crazyguy
Darkknight757
dbq407
5 days ago
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