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The Friday Column: Leave no man behind →
Why Watchtower should be ashamed of its new homophobic child propaganda cartoon
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Posted on May 3, 2016
In the new cartoon, Sophia's mum teaches her how to be judgmental and bigoted
In the new cartoon, Sophia’s mum teaches her how to be judgmental and bigoted
It was in the summer 2012 that Jehovah’s Witnesses around the world were first introduced to Caleb and Sophia, the Governing Body’s new animated poster kids.
Their first cartoon adventures, which were distributed in DVDs at conventions and on the organization’s JW.org website, caused outrage even among many non-JWs. Watchtower’s blatant attempts to indoctrinate children using fear and paranoia created a wave of dismay that will have gone largely unnoticed by most ordinary JWs.
Since they first burst on to our screens, Caleb and Sophia have been taught by their troubled parents that Jehovah is pedantic enough to hate certain kinds of plastic action figures, that he wants kids to give their ice cream money to Watchtower, and that failing to pay sufficient attention at kingdom hall meetings can carry the death penalty.
But Watchtower apparently isn’t done with stripping JW kids of all innocence and individuality. Now the Governing Body wants them to challenge any classmates with gay or lesbian parents, and remind them that if mommy and mommy (or daddy and daddy) don’t change their ways they will lose their tickets to paradise.
It’s hard to know where to start in verbalizing one’s revulsion at the proud ignorance and homophobia on open display in this CGI monstrosity, but I will do my best.
Firstly, Sophia’s bewilderingly-orange mother manipulates her daughter with a metaphor that entirely misrepresents both homosexuality and Watchtower’s views regarding it. Sophia is asked to picture a man traveling with a bag, the contents of which trigger the airport security systems because he is carrying a prohibited item.
Homosexuality is explained as being the forbidden item the man must surrender before being allowed to travel on to his desired destination: paradise earth.
The video presents a misleading metaphor that misrepresents both homosexuality and Watchtower's teachings about what awaits homosexuals
The video presents a misleading metaphor that misrepresents both homosexuality and Watchtower’s teachings about what awaits homosexuals
Anybody remotely in tune with reality understands that homosexuality is not a “choice,” as so often portrayed by Christian fundamentalists. Straight people are born straight, and gay people are born gay. Just as it would be outrageous to ask a straight person to start being gay, it is impossible to expect a gay person to live a lie and stop being who they are. And yet this is what fanatics like Watchtower demand of them.
Secondly, the metaphor implies that if the traveler chooses against surrendering the forbidden item, the worst that will happen is that his ticket will be cancelled and he will be forced to browse the duty free before hailing a cab and making his way back to the hotel. But that is not how it works according to Jehovah’s Witness teachings.
If the metaphor were accurately and fully followed through, we would see the traveller being bundled away by security and thrown into a 1940s cattle cart, along with all others deemed undesirable by the Governing Body, before being dispatched to the great extermination camp of Armageddon.
This is not a case of “follow us, or don’t fly,” this is a case of “follow us, or die.”
But this doomsday aspect of Jehovah’s Witness theology is so repugnant to most ordinary people that Watchtower must do its best to obfuscate it wherever possible.
Even most JWs you may encounter on the street, if pressed on the matter, will deny that literally billions of people, including children, are in line for mass slaughter if their hopes and expectations come to fruition. Their continued state of subservience to their religion depends on them not thinking things through to their fullest, most grisly conclusion.
All that deception and mischaracterization aside, arguably the most repugnant and disturbing aspect of this vile cartoon is that it sets out to recruit JW children to impose the organization’s homophobic bigotry on any classmates who happen to have gay or lesbian parents.
When I was growing up as a JW I recall being indoctrinated into believing that homosexuality was to be condemned. But I don’t remember once being told to actively seek out homosexuals, or children of homosexuals, to badger them with my beliefs. All that, apparently, has now changed. Watchtower has thrown its hat in with all the other sickly Christian evangelicals whose crusade is to stamp out homosexuality wherever it surfaces.
If you want to see what the end game is of preaching hate in this way, you need only watch the documentary “God Loves Uganda,” which is currently running on Netflix. It shows how U.S. evangelicals have taken a loathsome message that has zero credibility in their homeland, and cynically flooded Uganda with it – a country whose populace have limited access to education and are therefore easy pickings for those who spew ignorance and bigotry.
And before I am accused of trying to persuade people towards atheism by making this film recommendation, I should point out that two heroes of the film are Reverend Kaoma and Bishop Senyonjo. By the end of the film, I wanted to reach into my screen and hug them both.
Despite being Christians they could plainly see the real danger posed by evangelical homophobic fanaticism, and were doing their best in the face of unspeakable brutality to urge love, respect and tolerance.
Now it seems Watchtower, having already embraced televangelism, are also now quite happy to count themselves among the small-minded homophobic hate-mongers who stain our society. And rather than lead the hateful charge themselves, the likes of Tony Morris and his Governing Body cronies are content to hide behind a newly-formed army of school-age foot-soldiers who will take the heat for them.
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Further reading…
◾Metro article
◾Independent article
◾Inquisitr article
◾The Friendly Atheist article
◾Rawstory article
◾Complex article
◾Wetpaint article
◾Pink News article
◾Wonkette article
◾Gaystarnews article
◾SDGLN.com article
◾Same Same article
◾Newnownext article
◾The Daily Dot article
◾The Stranger article
◾The Gaily Grind article
◾Dangerous Minds article
◾TheNewCivilRightsMovement.com article
◾Progressive Secular Humanist article
◾JoeMyGod.com article
◾Watchtower’s New “Toy Story” – What Parents Need to Know
◾Sparlock a year later: Non-JWs in uproar on YouTube
◾Cough up kids! Watchtower needs your ice cream money
◾“Pay attention or die” – A disturbing glimpse of JW child indoctrination at work
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The Friday Column: Leave no man behind →
361 Responses to Why Watchtower should be ashamed of its new homophobic child propaganda cartoon
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MARS says:
May 3, 2016 at 10:47 am
The grapevine. They are also planning to do a Celeb story regarding former “associates” , how Celeb asks Dad why can’t he play with his friends anymore – its about children shunning children of ex members aka apostates. Its in the works.
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Covert Fade says:
May 3, 2016 at 10:53 am
I hope they bring that out soon.
Because that will be forwarded ASAP to all of the Government and legal investigations going on around the world into the JW’s.
I love it when Watchtower hands it’s foes a fully loaded Uzi…
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yawn says:
May 3, 2016 at 11:22 am
Are they just poking the bear here by making this, and the rumored one about shunning, so they can scream PERSECUTION when gov’t agencies and others call them out on their crap?
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yawn says:
May 3, 2016 at 10:48 am
In addition to the ridiculous message, how sick is it to implant in Sophia’s mind that she is now RESPONSIBLE to some degree for whether her friend and her family survive Armageddon.
That’s a lot of pressure to put on a kid, and will likely cause her much anguish for no good reason (as those of us raised JW likely know).
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karl says:
May 4, 2016 at 7:31 am
This is par for the course for the cult. I remember as a kid becoming a publisher in large part because I thought I’d be killed as punishment for failing to convert someone and “forcing” god to kill them too. Pretty messed up to be thinking things like that at 11.
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alanv says:
May 3, 2016 at 11:05 am
The more of these stupid children’s videos there are, the bigger the hole they are digging for themselves. Authorities the world over will see Watchtower for what it is.
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BC says:
May 3, 2016 at 11:16 am
Dear Lloyd, congratulations for yours fantastic posts!
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Dr Strabismus of Utrecht says:
May 3, 2016 at 11:31 am
“My mother made me a homosexual”.
“Really? If I get her the wool, will she make me one, too?”
Do the Governing Body and Sophia’s mother really think homosexuality is catching? 😉
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Kay says:
May 4, 2016 at 3:45 am
Yes. These are people who are attracted to the same gender, yet repress those feelings. They think everyone is secretly doing the same thing. So if homosexuality becomes more acceptable they think we will all ditch our opposite sex partners for new gay relationships.
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Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:
May 4, 2016 at 8:27 am
*** w86 1/1 p. 13 par. 12 Days Like “the Days of Noah” ***
Shocking as it is, even some who have been prominent in Jehovah’s organization have succumbed to immoral practices, including homosexuality, wife swapping, and child molesting. It is to be noted, also, that during the past year, 36,638 individuals had to be disfellowshipped from the Christian congregation, the greater number of them for practicing immorality. Jehovah’s organization must be kept clean!
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Dr Strabismus of Utrecht says:
May 4, 2016 at 12:56 pm
Gosh! 😉
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Dr Strabismus of Utrecht says:
May 4, 2016 at 12:59 pm
Yet another example of “I’m not having any fun, so nobody else should” misery-guts syndrome…
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Riley says:
May 3, 2016 at 11:31 am
Great video Lloyd !
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WideAwake says:
May 3, 2016 at 11:33 am
Thank you Lloyd for the well written article.
The truly sad part is how intolerance and a lack of compassion and understanding is such an intrinsic part of this cruel and controlling religion.
To use cartoons to poison the minds of young, innocent vulnerable children is despicable.
As you have stated, homosexuality by and large is not a choice.
My JW cousin was a homosexual. Sadly he could not come to terms with the self-hatred and despair he lived with daily and committed suicide.
The Watchtower might as well have put the gun to his head.
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Doc Obvious says:
May 3, 2016 at 11:39 am
Anything that Jehovah does not approve of will not be able to go to paradise.
Let me think of different items that Jehovah does not approve of.
Well, here is a list:
1. A false tongue, lying.
2. Being deceitful.
3. Watchtower covering up pedophile cases.
4. Watchtower not obeying the superior authorities when being asked for Child Sexual Abuse files.
5. Child kidnapping.
6. 1,006 cases of child abuse in Australia.
7. Watchtower coveting people’s money.
8. Jehovah God does not want pedophiles in paradise.
9. Not taking care of items that are in their power to do so.
10. Not being truthful about their financial situation.
11. Threatening people into submission.
There is more. If anyone has more items please add.
Well, I guess Watchtower will not be able to go to paradise either.
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Sarah says:
May 4, 2016 at 3:00 am
Add to your list:
Writing secret rules in 90 secret letters to elders
Said rules breach human rights
Said rules breach Bible principles
Said rules contradict public rules in WT mags
Said rules make elders act against law.
Etc.
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Lester Kite says:
May 3, 2016 at 11:51 am
they’ve hit a new low, but will suffer the consequences of it like they have with all the other releases
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Will says:
May 3, 2016 at 12:20 pm
Can you imagine if Sophia actually witnesses to her classmate about the “wrongness” of homosexuality? Let’s see: Sophia tells her classmates that her moms need to break up, so now the moms will have decide who keeps the kid. A family will be shattered, but that’s OK, they’ll being in paradise. What’s really going happen— Sophia’s classmate will tell her mom all the awful things Sophia said, including how God’s going to kill them. The moms will be furious, storm the school and demand to speak with Sophia’s horrible parents. The moms will likely get loud and then Sophia’s family will be at a convention talking about being persecuted for Jehovah and the speaker will tell everyone what a great example they are. This will be followed by a thunderous applause.
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Markie says:
May 3, 2016 at 12:51 pm
I guess you didn’t notice but the mother encouraged her to mention paradise, the resurrection and the animals.
Wonder why they didn’t use to fathers.
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ThePenthouseExperience says:
May 3, 2016 at 8:26 pm
The fathers are on the “down-low” and probably “tricking” during the video storyboard and production.
That’s where all this “conversion” effort will lead–some kinky, kinky judicial meetings in the future.
So, the gay fellow had to leave behind his “Louis Vuitton” overnight bag to get into Paradise? I assume he got to keep the Rolex and the Armani suits?
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Searcher says:
May 4, 2016 at 9:18 am
Yeah! He had his ‘tight pants’ in the overnight bag!
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Doc Obvious says:
May 3, 2016 at 12:57 pm
So, Sophia calls into question the girl’s two mommies’ sexual orientation. The girl with the two mommies cries home and discusses the incident with the two mommies. The mommies tell the daughter to gang up on Sophia.
The next day Sophia gets in a fight with the girl with two mommies and gets sent to the principal’s office. The principal wants to know what is going on and finds that Sophia is not accepting of people for who they are. The Principal calls Sophia’s parents.
The Principal asks Sophia’s parents how Sophia became so opinionated. The Principal finds out that Sophia’s parents also discriminate based on sexual orientation. Weeks go by. The two mommies sue Sophia’s parents for discrimination and now appear in court.
The judge hears both sides and orders that Sophia and Sophia’s parents need sensitivity training and to do community service in the LGBT community. The judge states how flawed the Watchtower is and that their teachings are not good for the community.
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ThePenthouseExperience says:
May 3, 2016 at 8:41 pm
While lesbians are a bit testosterone-endowed, I doubt the violence will be pushed from their side. The lesbian couple will approach the Principal or Teacher at the local welcoming church meeting and discuss the issue. There will be a call to the JW parents who will respond with arrogance and presumptive indignation assuming their rightness; the Principal will explain that she has no choice but to suspend the student based on bullying policies since Sophia has created a hostile learning environment.
A similar incident happened when Sophia’s dad was fired for creating a hostile work environment by preaching toward a transgender and ignoring supervisor reprimand and preaching at an openly gay coworker.
Sophia’s mom has begun experiencing anxiety and panic attacks due to mounting financial concerns and now this incident with the daughter has her experiencing a “persecution complex” with her anxiety.
When Sophia mom approached the elders with her issues of anxiety, they recommended that she pray, focus more on ministry, and meditate more on the literature (electronic books). She’s finding herself needing more than the two pain pills prescribed for a back pain she has developed from scrubbing the floors on her knees. It seems to help with the anxiety as well–at least she can make it through the day, now.
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Markie says:
May 3, 2016 at 12:47 pm
I do think that video is ridiculous but I am not sure if it is scientifically proven if people are born gay or not. I think it maybe a confluence of many things.
A video like this makes me wonder what Sanderson thinks. I would venture a guess and say he is probably gay (not that there is anything wrong with it). I could just imagine all the hot pioneer sisters that threw themselves at him and he is still single.
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Winston Smith says:
May 3, 2016 at 1:12 pm
Based on my observations, being born gay or straight is not so black and white. It seems there is a range of sexual orientation between gay and straight and we are all born somewhere in that range. Then our life experiences help to determine which way we lean based on our born-in predisposition. Some people are born hardcore straight others hardcore gay. Some are in between.
So it’s not necessarily nature OR nurture. It’s nature AND nurture that determine our sexual orientation. It is still beyond our control and thus not something we should use as reason to hate others.
WS
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Imgonaburn says:
May 3, 2016 at 2:53 pm
My son is gay despite being ‘nurtured’ by his jw upbringing otherwise. He has Aspergers and we always (at the time) hoped as jw parents that his effeminate side was attributable to his Asd. I would often be at appointments with medical professionals where this side of his character would be discussed. I was prepared for the possibility that my son would be gay. I would say to Camhs that if he is gay or trans or whatever that I would support him regardless. Long story short. When I realised that he IS gay I quit the religion.
I personally don’t think nurture plays much of a role in determining a persons sexuality. It’s not a choice. You are what you are.
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Winston Smith says:
May 3, 2016 at 3:39 pm
I certainly never said or meant to imply that it was a choice. And let’s face it, jw “nurturing” is anything but that. When psychologists talk about nurture they are not necessarily talking about our upbringing, but the sum total of the experiences that influence our behavior. That’s the essence of the nature vs nurture debate that psychologists have been having for over 100 years.
When I talk about varying degrees of sexual orientation, imagine a gauge similar to a speedometer. On the far left you have totally homosexual and on the far right you have totally heterosexual. Most of us are probably born at one extreme or the other, but some fall in the middle. The closer you are to the middle the more your experiences may play a role in your final sexual orientation. At the extremes you are less likely to be influenced by your experiences. This model helps explain how some men or woman may have homosexual or heterosexual experiences at some point during youth, but then realize that the opposite orientation is a better fit. It doesn’t mean that it’s a choice. It’s simply a result of nature combined with nurture.
WS
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Imgonaburn says:
May 3, 2016 at 4:49 pm
I apologise if my post sounded like I was attacking you. I was thought nurturing was to do with how we raise our children. I do understand what you are saying winston. thank you for explaining more about the nurture slant. I’ve just had an interesting conversation with my son. Even though he is gay and I’m straight we both agree that we find the female form more attractive lol. So maybe that sort of adds weight to what you are saying.
I found the video very disturbing though and I’m glad I’m out of the jw mindset now. I’ve shared it on FB. I don’t have jw friends on FB and some of my ‘worldy’ friends have commented on the video saying how disgusting it is.
The society are getting it wrong on so many levels. If they think that this is acceptable then they are dillusional. It needs to be shared online and given enough rope they will surely hang themselves?
apostate shamostate says:
May 3, 2016 at 1:57 pm
I think the point Lloyd is making that being gay is not a choice. If it were then people who are gay in countries that stone gay people would probably choose to be straight. They don’t choose that, because being gay is not a choice.
I never decided to be straight, I was born straight, I have never thought anything different and luckily for me that is the socially acceptable norm in society. It is time gay, straight, transgender, asexual, pan-sexual etc etc were all considered socially acceptable norms and we just started minding our own business, stop being so interested in the sex lives of other people and were just nice to everyone.
Sorry, rant over. It’s been a long and stressful day!
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JBob says:
May 3, 2016 at 9:17 pm
I think we can get obsessed on whether it is innate or a preference and lose sight of the impact the Watchtower’s approach has on families. Noting that this video doesn’t bridge, or introduce, what happens when this lesbian couple (or one partner) decides to do things “Jehovah’s way” and creates an emotional mess of her life, her partner’s, her daughter’s, (assuming it is biological) and the father(s, if gay couple shared), then the stigma that will follow her as she strives to fit into JW community.
(And, here is where the imbalance comes, as an outsider probably has a better chance of being “welcomed” than a child of current JW parents. As we learned last year, androgynous boys and girls are not fully embraced and given full access to JW privileges and rites.)
Every move she mimics to become “straight” being scrutinized, then herself scrutinizing own mannerisms, speech and whether she’s being “submissive” instead of the relative egalitarian lesbian partnership she once had.
Oh, the potlucks will be held–maybe once every three months, but certainly no charitable fund-raisers, or community action events, unless we count crafting trinkets for the international convention delegates. Maybe if you land in the right congregation, you’ll see the unconditional love and caring showed by LGBT community during the HIV/AIDS crisis of the late 80’s and early 90’s, but if it’s an affliction that was caught while “unbecoming of a JW”–eh, reaping what you sow [puts covered dish and vacuum back in cupboard].
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Linda Cebrian says:
May 3, 2016 at 9:19 pm
@markie: The director of the Human Genome Project has stated that sexuality is NOT hardwired. No one is born with a “sexual orientation.” That term is artificial jargon- constructed by homoerotic activists as part of the gay “rights” lexicon.
We are all born with a biological sex according to our chromosomal makeup: XY=male; XX=female. Here is where science confirms the Bible
(cf. Gen 1:27; Mt 19:5; Gal 3:28).
Homosexuality is learned behavior and anything that is learned can be unlearned, which explains the reality of ex-gays who have been able to renounce/overcome their unwanted same-sex attractions. Unfortunately, cultural supports for this truth are lacking, since political correctness is the order of the day. The gay lobby (aka Big Sodomy) is well-funded and well-connected to the media, the judiciary, academe and politics.
For more on the ex-gay movement, please google NARTH, the Restored Hope Network and/or Transforming Congregations.
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apostate shamostate says:
May 4, 2016 at 12:47 am
You are joking??? Seriously this is very offensive. Hundreds of people have been killed because of their sexual identities and you are saying this is a choice!!!!!!
When did you choose to be straight?
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Chris says:
May 4, 2016 at 1:13 am
“We are all born with a biological sex according to our chromosomal makeup: XY=male; XX=female. Here is where science confirms the Bible
(cf. Gen 1:27; Mt 19:5; Gal 3:28).”
This is actually not true. There is much more to biological sex in humans and other mammals than male and female, and I am not talking about transgender people or gender identity. For your edification, please read the following:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XYY_syndrome
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klinefelter_syndrome
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Klinefelter_XXY
“Homosexuality is learned behavior and anything that is learned can be unlearned, which explains the reality of ex-gays who have been able to renounce/overcome their unwanted same-sex attractions.”
You are also incorrect about this. The scientific consensus is that the opposite is true, and that it is not a learned behavior, just as heterosexuality is not a learned behavior. And this isn’t because of the mythical power of “Big Sodomy” either, it is because this is where the evidence points.
In fact, the initial assumption of the first scientists who studied this was similar to your view now. The scientific consensus of the 1950s (when sexuality started to really be studied) and the 1960s was that homosexuality was a learned behavior too, and that it could be cured. Based on their initial assumptions, scientists set out to prove that this was the case. However, study after study has demonstrated just the opposite. Now, let me explain to you why scientists understand this to be the case.
The first clue that sexual orientation wasn’t a choice came from just talking to gay people. Early surveys of homosexual people found that the vast majority of them (90% and up) felt as if they had no control over their sexual orientation. However, I am sure you will reject this because these are the gay people themselves telling you how they feel. And of course, this alone isn’t enough evidence, but it marked the beginning of scientists considering and studying a non-illness model of homosexuality.
The real nail in the coffin for the hypothesis that homosexuality is a learned behavior, however, comes from the study of genetics. To date, countless studies have found a genetic link to homosexuality, and none have not. For example, in a 1991 twin study, one of the first twin studies to look at homosexuality, they found a high concordance rate (the rate that both twins have a given trait) for homosexuality among twins. From the abstract, “52% (29/56) of monozygotic cotwins [identical twins], 22% (12/54) of dizygotic cotwins [fraternal twins], and 11% (6/57) of adoptive brothers were homosexual. Heritabilities were substantial under a wide range of assumptions about the population base rate of homosexuality and ascertainment bias” (http://archpsyc.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=495588%20). The sample size was small, but it showed a clear connection between genes and homosexuality. More study was definitely warranted, but, why should it be the case that men are much more likely to be gay if they have a gay identical twin, if not because male homosexuality is partly caused by genetics? And no, it is not true that if some trait has a genetic cause, then that trait should occur 100% of the time in identical twins. For example, the concordance rate of schizophrenia in identical twins is between 10% and 60% depending on if the twins shared the same placenta (http://schizophreniabulletin.oxfordjournals.org/content/21/3/357.short). Likewise, for left-handedness, the concordance rate in identical twins is around 75% to 80% (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3900763/#B11). And, I am certain you do not think people “choose” to be schizophrenic or left-handed, do you? You would rightly think that someone was rather ignorant if they said that schizophrenia is a learned behavior.
In a somewhat more recent twin study (2000), with a large, nationally representative sample, they found the same thing as the 1991 study, but with a slightly lower concordance rate of 31.6% for identical twins. From the study, “these results suggest that genetic factors may provide an important influence on sexual orientation” (pg. 1845, http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/pdf/10.1176/appi.ajp.157.11.1843). If your hypothesis was correct, we would expect that for identical twins, if one twin is gay, the other twin would only be gay at the same rate as the population (~3%), but this is not what we find. And you may rebut this by saying that perhaps the higher rate among twins is due to the gay twin influencing or “recruiting” the other one to be gay. But, if this was the case, then we would expect the higher concordance rate to be roughly the same for fraternal twins, who do not share the exact same DNA, and identical twins, who do, since we would expect a roughly equivalent number of gay fraternal twins to succeed in “recruiting” their “straight” sibling. Of course, we do not see that. In fact, we see that fraternal twins have a lower concordance rate than identical twins, 13.3% compared to 31.6%. Why should it be the case that the more DNA twins have in common, the higher the concordance rate if genetics played no role in determining sexual orientation?
In addition to twin studies, and genetics, it was been found that the more older brothers a boy has, the more likely it is that he will be gay. From the abstract of a study on fraternal birth order and its effect on male homosexuality, “In men, sexual orientation correlates with an individual’s number of older brothers, each additional older brother increasing the odds of homosexuality by approximately 33%” (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0018506X01916812). Why would having more older brothers increase the chances of a male being gay? According to you, I suppose, people with more older brothers just coincidentally learn to be gay more often. According to reality, however, it is hypothesized that each additional brother born, makes more changes to the mother’s womb. These changes effect the levels of certain hormones and chemicals that are exposed to the future developing fetuses. The result is that future male fetuses are more likely to develop a homosexual sexual orientation.
The fact of the matter is that nobody chooses to be gay, straight, or bisexual, and nobody has any significant ability to change their sexual orientation, whether through prayer or therapy. Of course, this post is long enough already, and I do not have the time to relay to you the scientific studies on ex-gay therapy, like I did for the causes of homosexuality in humans. But very briefly, the studies show that ex-gay “therapy” is ineffective, and can actually be extremely harmful. It is, in a great sense, torture to beat into a gay child’s mind that they are sick and need to be healed, especially since they have no way of changing their sexual feelings. You set them up for failure, and then shun them when they fail. It is despicable, and has directly caused suicide.
I hope that you use the information I just taught you, and don’t just ignore it. Of course you have the right to believe whatever you want, but you should really change your beliefs about homosexuality so that they match the best available evidence, particularly since the types of incorrect beliefs you hold about gay people often result in the poor treatment of those people. I am sure you would say that you “love” gay people, but when you believe demonstrably untrue things about how they become gay and if they can stop being gay, then you clearly don’t love them enough to take the time to understand them.
Regards! Hope you have a nice day.
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MattH says:
May 4, 2016 at 2:21 am
Thanks, I did do some searching as a result of reading your comment and I found this quote from Francis Collins, the director of the Human Genome Project:
“…indicating that sexual orientation is genetically influenced but not hardwired by DNA, and that whatever genes are involved represent predispostions, not predeterminations.”
Not so black and white as you state is it?
Then there is a further quote from him:
“The words quoted by NARTH all come from the appendix to my book “The Language of God” (pp.260-263), but have been juxtaposed in a way that suggests a somewhat different conclusion that I intended. I would urge anyone who is concerned about the meaning to refer back to the original text.”
Google. It’s a powerful tool for exposing misinformation.
(I searched for: director of human genome project sexuality not hard wired.)
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Victor says:
May 4, 2016 at 5:26 am
chromosomes determine whether or not you have an excrescence between the legs, not your sexual orientation. it is sad to see so much bigotry in 2016.
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Kaytee says:
May 4, 2016 at 6:39 am
Wrong wrong wrong! I did a research paper my first year of college trying to prove to myself that JW teachings on LGBTQ were right; instead, my research proved that they are unambiguously dead wrong* (no wonder they don’t want believers getting an education). You obviously don’t know the science you claim to know: homosexuality has been mapped to certain genes and epigenetic variations—proof that it’s not a “learned behavior.” To believe otherwise is nothing less than bigotry!
*As just one example of what my research found: transgender girls as young as toddlerhood have been caught trying to remove their male genetalia. If they weren’t born transgender, they wouldn’t care what’s between their legs until puberty at the earliest.
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Kaytee says:
May 4, 2016 at 6:43 am
Oh, and another thing: gay repatriation therapy has been almost universally illegalized in the United States as well as in many other developed countries. Why? Because it is unethical and all too often leads to suicide. In my view, anyone who contributes to the vilification of LGBTQ people after knowing the facts has blood on their hands.
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Kaytee says:
May 4, 2016 at 6:53 am
Reading my above comment, I realize I misspoke: To clarify, gay conversion or *reparative* therapy (stupid malapropism) is not banned for adults in most places, but for children. Additionally, most psychologists will not perform such therapy even on adults, because it’s considered unethical.
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Hip hip hooray I'm an ex says:
May 4, 2016 at 6:49 am
Francis Collins, the head of the Human Genome project, is an evangelical Christian.
Do you think that might’ve slanted his viewpoint on homosexuality’s inheritedness?
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dee2 says:
May 4, 2016 at 6:57 am
@ Linda Cebrian,
Here’s a thought on Genesis 1:27:
GOD IS INVISIBLE but he made man in his “Image.” What does an invisible image look like?
Man was made from (depending on translation) dust, clay, or mud. Logically, the 1st human was mud in the invisible image of God.
All humans have 46 chromosomes but sex is determined by only 2 of them X and Y.
Males have one X and one Y. Females have 2 X’s.
Eve was constructed from Adam’s DNA (using his rib)
Eve had to be a clone of Adam. If God duplicated Adam’s X chromosome to make 2 X’s Even would be Female, but still related in every way to Adam. Why?
She would share the other 44 chromosomes with him. This would make her a Fraternal Twin.
ADAM married his sister!
OR
ADAM married his clone.
But wait!
Where in the Bible do we find the “wedding ceremony” of Adam and Eve?
Eve is called his “wife” but in what sense could a brother and sister marry and not produce idiots for children?
FUNDAMENTALISTS say: “God made Adam and Eve–not Adam and STEVE.”
However, we know that any sample of DNA from a person is specific to that person and does not change. That fact is helping to solve crimes, establish paternity and are getting people released from death row. Since the source material came from a dude, Adam, then the sample would be an exact genetic match for Adam.
Gulp!
That means that God did make Adam and STEVE after all!
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dee2 says:
May 4, 2016 at 1:42 pm
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5634582229549056/maybe-god-did-make-adam-steve-after-all
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dee2 says:
May 4, 2016 at 9:37 am
@Linda Cebrian,
“We are all born with a biological sex according to our chromosomal makeup: XY=male; XX=female. Here is where science confirms the Bible
(cf. Gen 1:27; Mt 19:5; Gal 3:28).”
The following article is of interest:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/think-gender-comes-down-to-x-and-y-chromosomes-think-again/article24811543/:
Think gender comes down to X and Y chromosomes? Think again
PETER MCKNIGHT
Special to The Globe and Mail
Thursday, Jun. 04, 2015
Peter McKnight is an adjunct professor in the School of Criminology at Simon Fraser University.
“So which washroom is Caitlyn Jenner supposed to use? If you haven’t been keeping up with the Kardashians, you probably haven’t heard that Caitlyn is the name former Olympian and Kardashian patriarch Bruce Jenner has given herself.
And if you haven’t been keeping up with transgender issues, you probably haven’t heard that these things always come down to washrooms. Those who oppose all matters transgender inevitably get their knickers in a knot about who belongs in which washroom.
Witness the Senate’s recent efforts to gut NDP MP Randall Garrison’s transgender rights bill by exempting washrooms from its purview. And witness Conservative Senator Donald Plett’s comments that “vulnerable women” need to be protected from “biological males” who might enter the women’s washroom.
For many people, biology defines sex, and sex is always a binary affair. Sure, postmodernists have been playing with the concept of gender for decades, but sex, well, sex is sacred, which means you’re either biologically male or female. But never both. Or neither.
But biology doesn’t work that way. Biological phenomena don’t necessarily fit into human-ordained binary categories. So while humans insist that you’re either male or female – that you have either XY or XX sex chromosomes – biology begs to differ.
For example, genetic men with Klinefelter syndrome possess an extra X chromosome (XXY) or more rarely, two or three extra Xs (XXXY, XXXXY); they typically produce low levels of testosterone, leading to less-developed masculine sexual characteristics and more-developed feminine characteristics than other men. In contrast, some men receive an extra Y chromosome (XYY) in the genetic lottery, and while they have been referred to as “supermales” that is more sensationalism than science.
Genetic women with Turner syndrome have only one X chromosome; they often display less-developed female sexual characteristics than other women. And people with a genetic mosaic possess XX chromosomes in some cells and XY in others. So how do we determine if they’re male or female? Hint: Don’t say that it depends on the chromosomal makeup of the majority of their cells, since women with more than 90 per cent XY genetic material have given birth.
Even if you get the “right” combination of sex chromosomes, it’s no guarantee that you’ll fit into the carefully circumscribed human definitions of male and female.
For example, genetic women (XX) with congenital adrenal hyperplasia produced unusually high levels of virilizing hormones in utero and develop stereotypically masculine sexual characteristics, including masculinized genitals.
Similarly, genetic men (XY) with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome don’t respond to male hormones and fail to develop masculine sexual characteristics. Most live their lives as women. Some historians suggest that Joan of Arc, Elizabeth I and Wallis Simpson all suffered from this syndrome.
So what’s the answer? There isn’t one, at least if we’re looking for the answer in biology. We must not fall back on biology. Rather, we must always remember that it is we, not biology, who decide who counts as male or female. And it is we who must take responsibility for our decisions.”
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Imgonaburn says:
May 5, 2016 at 10:18 am
How can a person who has been raised a jw ‘learn’ homosexuality.
Stop with all of your foolishness it’s most unbecoming.
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Outandabout says:
May 5, 2016 at 6:55 pm
Exactly! For anyone to say that homosexuality can be un-learned is to say that the likes of autism, bi-polar, schizophrenia etc, can also be un-learned. Imagine telling a paranoid schizophrenic to “snap the hell out of it”. To suggest that a person chooses to put themselves in a position of ridicule at best and death at worst is moronic. Any cases where somebody has renounced their gayness will have been for survival reasons only. I respect peoples views on this site, but people suggesting homosexuality is a learned thing are total and utter idiots who need to extract their heads from their butts!
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apostate shamostate says:
May 3, 2016 at 1:35 pm
Thank you for writing this Lloyd. This video made me so angry when I watched it this morning and I feel a little calmer reading your rational take on how evil this horrible cult is. I do think this video should be shared far and wide and sent to newspapers, politicians etc to make people aware of just how nasty and dangerous this sect is. I honestly believe they are one step away from killing their children with KoolAid or sending them to blow up cathedrals and instead of shouting ‘Allahu Akbar’ they will shout ‘JW.org!’
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DavidR says:
May 3, 2016 at 1:59 pm
Also Sophia, later Cain took his sister as his wife. So I hope you REALLY like your brother, cause you’re going to see a whole lot more of him.
Oh wait, we ignore that part? Oh okay.
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Will says:
May 3, 2016 at 2:33 pm
I just sent the Village Voice, here in NYC the link to the video from JW.org. This is awful and it needs to be put out there.
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Will says:
May 3, 2016 at 2:41 pm
And TV station WNBC. I said that with all the attention with Prince’s death and his embrace of the religion, it’s interesting how anti-gay witnesses and told them about the disturbing children’s video.
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Cherie says:
May 4, 2016 at 8:01 am
Yesss. I really hope the mainstream media picks up on this.
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Cherie says:
May 4, 2016 at 7:59 am
Good one, Will!
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Tara says:
May 3, 2016 at 2:53 pm
Already on fb. an ex witness posted it and it’s being shared. talk about nail in their own coffin shut. Good job WT 🙂
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jonathan says:
May 3, 2016 at 2:53 pm
Guys, as much as I do not condone JW doctrine, you do realize that any christian religion that takes the bible seriously will include homosexuality as a sinful practice, right? I dont understand why this is so surprising.
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yawn says:
May 3, 2016 at 3:16 pm
Right. And all of Lloyds rebuttals apply to them, too. He even brings this up in the video, when speaking of Uganda.
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Cobb says:
May 3, 2016 at 7:27 pm
I don’t think the point is that they don’t condone homosexuality. Even though there is nothing to approve or condone.. it simply is a fact of life. I think the point is that they are teaching little children to actively insult their peers and tell them that their parents are hated by god.
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markw says:
May 4, 2016 at 11:36 am
That’s the point, Cobb. Exactly!
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sally peterson says:
May 3, 2016 at 4:20 pm
Where does Jesus tell us to hate? I seem to recall Jesus telling us to love everyone, even our enemies and to pray for those persecuting us.”Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.” Romans 13:10 Its a shame to see all this teaching of hatred.
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Caroline says:
May 3, 2016 at 4:53 pm
When I saw that cartoon I was repulsed by it too and I am so glad you did a video about it and an article. Thanks!!
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Tara says:
May 3, 2016 at 5:18 pm
can I please suggest that any parents out there contact your school and warn them of the video. For all the children’s sake, Jw or not. When my daughter was small she told her classmate in no uncertain term that Christmas was bad and evil…. you can imagine the fallout we had from that one. I was summoned by the head teacher etc etc. If one of the JW children tells a classmate about this video and elaborates, as they will, with help from mum and dad, there could be serious reprisals in the form of bullying. No child deserves that and most JW kids are little parrots. They will repeat word for word what they hear. Please, please contact your children’s teacher’s. Forewarned is forearmed.
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Jeffreycanning says:
May 3, 2016 at 5:26 pm
Homosexual people are born such, and therefore born in Gods image…Maybe God is gay…?
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Balcácer says:
May 3, 2016 at 6:11 pm
Can people do a sit in ? And tell that this organization that once again has failed-
!!
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Flying Gabriel says:
May 3, 2016 at 6:11 pm
They gave Sophia’s Mum nice perky breasts … to help the gay people.
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gary says:
May 3, 2016 at 11:50 pm
Has she?, I must have missed that
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Anonymous says:
May 3, 2016 at 6:37 pm
As a 23 year old closeted gay guy that’s still in the organization this infuriates me it shows how ignorant watchtower is. There is no way I can stop being gay. It’s so hard keeping a secret like this especially from Full Devouted JW parents and siblings. That little girl Sophia whatever her name is needs to shut the hell up and mind her own business. This video makes me sick portraying Homosexuality like its a
Freakin T Shirt like its something I can just take on and off. I don’t believe in the Bible anymore some of it may be historically accurate but more than half of it is made up bull. I’m trying really hard to keep my fake smile and greet at the Kingdom Hall, I love my parents very much and according to my parents they tell they love me unconditionally BUT telling them I’m gay would completely throw them off, they don’t even suspect asking me when I’m getting married constantly. Thank you Cedars for opening my eyes since 99% of JW don’t even know what’s going on inside the org and would deny it saying its Santans work. Sorry for my long Comment thanks to Watchtower I have no friends, no life and no career.
That is all
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Tara says:
May 3, 2016 at 6:48 pm
For what it’s worth, you have friends here. A brother in my ex hall is gay. He has never ‘come out’ and his mother will tell you that he is just a very ‘clean’ boy….. even elders and non witness people can see that he is gay but the poor lad just hides it. I don’t think you are in any way alone. I am glad you told us. It took extreme courage but I know you will not be judged here. You are among people who care about you, not what you are or what others define or perceive you to be. Heck, I’m nearly 50, shunned, divorced and have PTSD. But on here I feel I have found a group of people who except me for what I am and support me in my fading.
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Roman Castañeda says:
May 3, 2016 at 7:10 pm
Like many of us here, I wish my family would finally wake up from this indoctrination. But they cling on to the teachings much like we cling on to our beliefs.
I came out to my family recently and I understand where they are coming from, but I think it’s finally time I follow their advice and travel the world, or at least the American continent. It’s something I’ve always wanted to do.
Stepping away from them will take it’s toll, and I don’t feel right telling you to rush into anything. Just take your time, but don’t delay. This is your life you are talking about.
If you need someone to talk to, find me as ColorTheWindGreen on Kik. I’d be glad to be of service any way possible
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Cedars says:
May 4, 2016 at 12:20 am
I feel for your predicament. It sounds like you need to be extremely patient and figure out an exit strategy. I hope everything works out for you eventually, even though it will doubtless take lots of time and more than a few tears. The end result, being free from living a lie, will be worth it all.
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Will says:
May 4, 2016 at 6:55 am
I hope you someday find the courage to come out. You will need build a world outside the walls of the kingdom hall because you will be shunned if you intend to live how you feel. It’s very lonely for those who left, straight or gay. You seem to be a relatively young person, so you will need to do it before you get too old. You don’t want to feel you wasted your life away. Please do your research on how to minimize any emotional trauma. Best to you!!!
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Kaytee says:
May 4, 2016 at 7:19 am
It breaks my heart that you have to fear rejection from your parents, just over being who you are! It seems almost everyone here has either faced that reality, or will need to face it at some point. You’re not alone! Whatever you choose to do, I know I’m not the only one who would happily give an ex-JW young person a family to be part of.
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Markie says:
May 4, 2016 at 7:35 pm
Your only 23. Go to college and get a degree. Maybe your parents are more open minded then you think. If it ever comes down to a choice between my children and the organization, I would always choose my children. Your parents probably feel the same way.
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Claire Gorman says:
May 3, 2016 at 7:17 pm
My brother is gay. He tried to hide it but could deny his feelings no longer. He is not evil or insane. He would move the earth for anyone that needed help and wears his heart on his sleeve for his family. We love him and understand his orientation. The thought that this kind and loving man could be stripped of a reward in the next life due to a character trait that he did not choose does not sit well. I know we have a God of justice who would not take such action, despite what Watchtower propaganda would have you believe. We all know Caleb and Sophia are bull****. Just another Goebbels invention to keep the masses subserviant. High horse now vacated. Over and out. Peace to all readers.
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Winston Smith says:
May 3, 2016 at 7:58 pm
I am pretty certain that my brother in law is gay. He has never come out and denies it profusely, but he has been caught with gay porn enough times and the excuses he gives for it are pretty weak. He is now 50 and has never been able to live his own life. He has been trapped in this cult and victimized by their abuse. I feel sorry for him. He grew up in an extremely abusive household (his father was an elder and one of the most horrible abusers I have ever known).
WS
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Vincent Deporter says:
May 4, 2016 at 5:56 am
That is a horrible story. What a waste of life… My heart goes out to him. My fist goes out to his father.
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Sharon Christensen says:
May 3, 2016 at 9:00 pm
The other day, my husband and daughter were reading the Bible acct of where some were condemning a person for being adulterous…Jesus answer to them…if anyone of you is sinless…throw the first stone….appartly there was not a single one who was…so eventually they departed and left the person alone! Also, who does it say Jesus died for…what, if any stipulations? That ALL of you may be saved! Job said…before we were born, Jehovah knew our makeup…He is a Father of tender mercies, remembering …we are dust…We are all so fortunate to have Him to look out for us, He alone understands us, no religion has the right to pass judgement that would cause a person to feel unworthy of Gods love…to the point of taking ones own life. For with the judgement you are rendering….You will be judged….Jw.org…has two or more… sets of…weights…if you have $ for them, they approve of or turn a blind eye to all kinds if things….
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Average Joe says:
May 4, 2016 at 12:06 am
With regard your first Bible quote, the WTS have seen fit to remove that from their latest translation!!! Too much mercy being shown, more than likely!
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Winston Smith says:
May 4, 2016 at 12:56 pm
@AJ
I was likewise shocked when they eliminated that account from the “silver sword.” You’re probably right: too much mercy and not enough bigoted hatred along with self righteousness.
WS
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ClosetApostate says:
May 3, 2016 at 9:11 pm
Young children Caleb and Sophea’s age don’t have the comprehension adults have. My six year old nephew was asked if he knows what a demon is. He said, “A demon is a roller coaster ride at Great America Amusement Park.” And I laughed. Kid’s don’t fully understand things because they’re kids. Noone wanted to explain to him exactly what gays do. So he thinks the video is stupid. And he said so. Nobody wanted to explain it to him. Who on earth is so stupid that they made a video like that? HAHAHAHA. Oh my goodness they are getting dumber at the top. The shame is the harm they cause. That is terrible.
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Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:
May 4, 2016 at 4:13 am
They know what they are doing…
*** g92 2/22 p. 5 When to Start and How Much to Say ***
Another time the child may ask: “How does the daddy’s seed get into the mommy?” You could say, respectfully: “You know how a boy is made. He has a penis. A mother has an opening in her body that the penis fits into, and the seed is planted.
Compare with…
*** fl chap. 9 p. 124 par. 19 Training Children from Infancy ***
Later the child may ask, ‘How does the father’s seed get into the mother?’ You may simply say: ‘You know how a boy is. He has a penis. The girl has an opening in her body that it fits into. The seed is planted
You just switch from “girl” to “mother”!
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Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:
May 3, 2016 at 11:58 pm
Who thinks the Watchtower will never be ashamed of the homophobic child propaganda cartoon? I think the World does not understand the game and interests behind. The following is from the very publications of JWs…
*** w56 1/1 p. 6 Part 25—Expansion in Europe and Africa (1945-1955) ***
How have Jehovah’s witnesses coped with such a variety of European, Mohammedan and primitive pagan thinking?
We are all hit together… Europeans and “primitive pagans” in one basket, hit seriously! Empire rise and fall, time changes and people change! Yesterday’s allies are today’s enemies! I like to see how societies evolve!
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Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:
May 3, 2016 at 11:59 pm
Sorry, the question is “Who thinks the Watchtower will be ashamed of the homophobic child propaganda cartoon?”
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ruthlee says:
May 4, 2016 at 12:30 am
This comment is for ironic purposes only. Can you not see that the only people that are going to populate jdub paradise is the clones of Sophia and Caleb. Anyone who deviates from that fitted profile will get dinged out of the ring before close of day. So out with all you apostates, critical thinkers, sexual deviants, educated ,fat, old, demented, special needs, annoying and generally anyone who does not fit the perfect template. Dare I include mud born, celtic cursed, and jonny foreigner , when their money and usefulness runs out. This is because Jesus only came for the smug saved hard working boasting number toting self appointed self anointed jw.orgers. Sorry jc (not the other one) But your blood is Not acceptable for such sinners, we in the 21thC call gay. You come short with these people because they are not welcome in the garden of earthly delights aka the spiritual paradise or any future one.If this cult survives then they will be left with their perfect clones of Caleb and Sophia and wont that be grand, nice little cardboard cutouts of a shadow of humanity that they can tweak at will. Ooooh no arguments , no diversity, no shunning, and eventually no conversation. Afterall when everyone looks acts and thinks the same there will be nothing to say . Maybe if that miracle happens before Armageddon , they might use their lazy eyes to read the Bible and actually get the point of what humans are and what they do and how we are here to help each other out, not into a box of conformity. Just my opinion. Ruthlee
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Daniel Roberts says:
May 4, 2016 at 1:30 am
Good comment. You forgot bald people. In the new order all will have nice thick luxurious hair. Only one style though. AND NO BEARDS ALLOWED.
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Holy Connoli says:
May 4, 2016 at 4:12 am
To Daniel Roberts: Don’t forget No sideburns below the ear lobe and No Goatees either. Only and “Elder Mustache” is approved, and of course No tight pants! lol
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Daniel Roberts says:
May 4, 2016 at 5:18 am
Too right. I believe all the above exclusions to paradise to be completely reasonable too…
Along with:
Women shalt not weareth two legged garments and shalt remember they are not giraffes.
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Idontknowhatodo says:
May 5, 2016 at 7:53 am
Nor will they be Princesses in the new world…..anybody catch that in the morning worship last month…..
dee2 says:
May 5, 2016 at 8:06 pm
“Nor will they be Princesses in the new world”
Apparently God has told the GB that the 144,000 will be only males.
Queen Elsa says:
May 4, 2016 at 1:39 am
Now I know why my daughter mentioned someone at school being gay!!! This really pisses me off…
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Daniel Roberts says:
May 4, 2016 at 1:53 am
Should an organisation that blatantly spreads hate and intolerance propaganda be legally able to call itself a charity?
I remember as a child how the JW indoctrination made me think being Gay was the same as pedophilia. After I escaped the cult it took me years to adjust my thinking.
I thought all gay people were predators who would rape me and ‘turn me gay’ given the chance.
Bizarre how in reality, the organisation is actually protective of its pedophiles… yet active in condemning sex between two consenting adults of the same gender.
This animated hate crime is fashioned specifically to insidiously corrupt young minds.
It’s no different to the westboro baptist church’s ‘God hates fags’ slogan and their respective ignorant bigoted inhumane attitude to what is just another facet of human nature.
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Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:
May 4, 2016 at 2:45 am
*** w64 5/1 p. 261 The Bible—Is It a “White Man’s Book”? ***
Why do many feel the Bible is a “white man’s book”? Whose book is it? For whom is it?
“A RELIGION organized and backed by the devils for the purpose of making slaves of black mankind.” This is the way Christianity was described by the leader of a militant colored organization. The Bible? He called it a “poison book.”
While many in the realm of Christendom may consider this an extremist viewpoint, the hard fact remains that a large number of colored peoples throughout all of Africa and Asia, as well as colored peoples in other parts of the world, feel similarly. They consider Christianity a “white man’s religion” and the Bible a “white man’s book.”
Some would be quick to dismiss these conclusions of such colored peoples as prejudiced and without any basis. But are such viewpoints without basis? Why have many of the colored peoples of the world come to such a conclusion? And, of vital importance, is it true that the Bible, and hence Christianity, is for the white man principally?
Bible, whose book is that? The one who will answer that question will have opened a way to solving all these problems including indoctrination of young minds of all races.
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Sarah says:
May 4, 2016 at 3:09 am
Can someone tell me how old Sophia is? No child should be dealing with this sort of issue at such a young age. Children’s innocence should be protected. Let them grow up slowly.
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Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:
May 4, 2016 at 4:01 am
I do not know how Old Sophia is but I know Mary was 13 years when she was impregnated by Jehovah to bear Jesus… It happened to be a teen pregnancy…
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Idontknowhatodo says:
May 4, 2016 at 4:34 am
I love Lloyds repeated statement….. ‘How people choose to live their lives is none of our business’ this seems to be forgotten…as long as you are harming no-one tell them to mind their own business!
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chatpal says:
May 4, 2016 at 4:45 am
this certainly is not how subjects like this would have been dealt with 50 years ago. then things were avoided when there was no clear answer. the televangelism is sickening. I cant help but get the feeling there is a undercover group at the wt undermining the whole thing. how on earth can every one of the gb at the wt or anyone up there, watch these videos and equally approve of them?
how does teaching children this make them a better person or live a better life? it doesn’t. if anything the wt should be producing videos on how to be helpful to mommy and daddy , how to not fight with your sister, how to keep your room clean, how to help elderly ones in the cong. things kids actually UNDERSTAND. this is a subject Id never approach with my kids until they were like 16,lol. the short answer to a child that asks why so n so has two mommy’s, or dads, is that they are the best of friends and decided to live together and have children. to explain to a child [if they ask] why a persons physical does not match their actions, Id try explaining a simple scientific explanation. that does exist . i remember when the answer to uncomfortable questions was, well ‘we dont know, but Jehovah will do what he sees is best , as for us we have to be nice everyone’ ,lol
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JBob says:
May 12, 2016 at 1:11 pm
Wow, so does that mean if you have a d/f or “former associate” relative, you get shunned at the Kingdom Hall by the other adult-age children? The answer is Yes. It’s been the unwritten yet de facto doctrine for years. Typical group dynamics encouraged by relentless reviewing of the story of Miriam struck by leprosy, Korah and the earth opening up, etc. So, when J* starts hurling down fiery comets I don’t want to be standing near the “Family_Name_of_XJW”.
Stupid, divisive non-sense that is from the Divider and Trickster, Satan.
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JBob says:
May 12, 2016 at 1:25 pm
whoops, forgot I had one in the chamber… anyhoo, it appears the new “writing staff” at HQ is attempting to win over the ultra-conservatives who appear to be gaining dollars, book sales, and political clout. Plus, the conservative-to-moderate slicked-up evangelical mega-church crowd eating away at the Watchtower’s automated lake funds.
This also seems to be a defensive move by the HQ given it being inundated with pedophile cases–can you believe the denial the GB ran in one video [“false reports of toleration of pedophiles by our enemies”]? It’s in the court transcripts, you Luddite!
As I’ve always speculated here, it is that internal civil war (which probably equals the one we’re seeing in USA between the R’s and also the D’s own internal conflicts) between ultra-conservatives, conservatives and moderates (are there any progressive JW’s–yes, but most were purged in the 1980’s along with Raymond Franz) for “ruling power”. I also speculate that the GB–oft viewed as “the penultimate power” but really are figureheads–are doing their best to placate these ultra-conservatives lest they find themselves “Raymond Franz”-ed. Keep in mind that the Bethelites in critical research and writing departments have held those posts for years and the ears of figureheads for years. Unlike the past where a single President had authority to kick someone out, committees control everything, so the momentum of being “stuck in the theological rut” prevents any modern-thinking or progressive views from surfacing. Hey, they can even re-write the Bible and justify it without batting an eyelash.
I can only hope that the constant and unrelenting trudging of footsteps around the seemingly impenetrable and insurmountable Watchtower will end with a clarion trumpet bringing it down as my nightly dream a few years ago revealed–a tower crumbling down in ruins.
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Sam says:
May 4, 2016 at 4:48 am
My parents are JW, very homophobic and have been extremely nasty about my sisters recent wedding to her girlfriend.
This specific sister works in child protection, protecting small children from the most horrific sexual and physical abuse, and rebuilding their lives after abuse. Something which Jehovah is content to let happen.
But Jehovah is going to kill her because of who she loves.
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Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:
May 4, 2016 at 5:05 am
I am afraid the Watchtower is playing the game they know and are mocking us. For them, homosexuality is a result of quality of father-boy relationship…
*** g95 2/8 p. 16 Why Do I Have These Feelings? ***
A boy also needs acknowledgment, love, and approval from his father. (Compare Luke 3:22.) What can result when a father fails to give his child this needed attention? Emotional distress. Mental-health writer Joseph Nicolosi claims that male homosexuality is “almost always the result of problems in family relations, particularly between father and son.”
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Daniel Roberts says:
May 4, 2016 at 5:30 am
Yup. That’s exactly what makes someone choose to be gay. Not getting enough attention from their father.
Guess I should be gay then.
Hang on…
Maybe…..
I…..
Am….
….
Nope, still like boobs.
Reply
Winston Smith says:
May 4, 2016 at 1:00 pm
Man-boobs? Sorry I couldn’t resist. LOL
Reply
Daniel Roberts says:
May 5, 2016 at 2:28 am
Man boobs?
I suppose given that homosexuality is a choice… according to lesser educated people on this forum… I could LEARN to love man boobs. But only if they were particularly pert.
Reply
Vincent Deporter says:
May 4, 2016 at 5:47 am
Well done! Hopefully, this video will keep blazing thru the internet to warn people of how despicable this cult is, and homophobia in general.
Reply
Vincent Deporter says:
May 4, 2016 at 5:53 am
Just one more thing. I am amused at the likelihood that by the time Caleb & Sophia hit 18, they will have smartened up and left the cult… like most young ones today. Hehe!
Reply
Covert Fade says:
May 4, 2016 at 4:17 pm
Very true! 🙂
Reply
Gameisover says:
May 4, 2016 at 6:03 am
I don’t believe nurturing has anything to do with sexual orientation. Many children are brought up by only women in their household, and are not gay because of it.
Of the 7 things God hates , none have to do with sins of the flesh, but with lying, defaming, pride. (Watchtower!!)
Homosexuality is definitely not a choice. It just happens.
Society instead has a choice: To welcome and respect everyone they meet on this short trip that we call LIFE.
Reply
Winston Smith says:
May 4, 2016 at 5:38 pm
Gameisover,
Not sure if this is response to my comment earlier, but my references to nurture are not in specific regard to child rearing, but rather to the overall sum of experiences that shape our lives and as is defined by the nature vs nurture psychological argument. See additional info above.
WS
Reply
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← News Bulletin: Secret Watchtower documents once again demanded in new US court case.
The Friday Column: Leave no man behind →
Why Watchtower should be ashamed of its new homophobic child propaganda cartoon
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Posted on May 3, 2016
In the new cartoon, Sophia's mum teaches her how to be judgmental and bigoted
In the new cartoon, Sophia’s mum teaches her how to be judgmental and bigoted
It was in the summer 2012 that Jehovah’s Witnesses around the world were first introduced to Caleb and Sophia, the Governing Body’s new animated poster kids.
Their first cartoon adventures, which were distributed in DVDs at conventions and on the organization’s JW.org website, caused outrage even among many non-JWs. Watchtower’s blatant attempts to indoctrinate children using fear and paranoia created a wave of dismay that will have gone largely unnoticed by most ordinary JWs.
Since they first burst on to our screens, Caleb and Sophia have been taught by their troubled parents that Jehovah is pedantic enough to hate certain kinds of plastic action figures, that he wants kids to give their ice cream money to Watchtower, and that failing to pay sufficient attention at kingdom hall meetings can carry the death penalty.
But Watchtower apparently isn’t done with stripping JW kids of all innocence and individuality. Now the Governing Body wants them to challenge any classmates with gay or lesbian parents, and remind them that if mommy and mommy (or daddy and daddy) don’t change their ways they will lose their tickets to paradise.
It’s hard to know where to start in verbalizing one’s revulsion at the proud ignorance and homophobia on open display in this CGI monstrosity, but I will do my best.
Firstly, Sophia’s bewilderingly-orange mother manipulates her daughter with a metaphor that entirely misrepresents both homosexuality and Watchtower’s views regarding it. Sophia is asked to picture a man traveling with a bag, the contents of which trigger the airport security systems because he is carrying a prohibited item.
Homosexuality is explained as being the forbidden item the man must surrender before being allowed to travel on to his desired destination: paradise earth.
The video presents a misleading metaphor that misrepresents both homosexuality and Watchtower's teachings about what awaits homosexuals
The video presents a misleading metaphor that misrepresents both homosexuality and Watchtower’s teachings about what awaits homosexuals
Anybody remotely in tune with reality understands that homosexuality is not a “choice,” as so often portrayed by Christian fundamentalists. Straight people are born straight, and gay people are born gay. Just as it would be outrageous to ask a straight person to start being gay, it is impossible to expect a gay person to live a lie and stop being who they are. And yet this is what fanatics like Watchtower demand of them.
Secondly, the metaphor implies that if the traveler chooses against surrendering the forbidden item, the worst that will happen is that his ticket will be cancelled and he will be forced to browse the duty free before hailing a cab and making his way back to the hotel. But that is not how it works according to Jehovah’s Witness teachings.
If the metaphor were accurately and fully followed through, we would see the traveller being bundled away by security and thrown into a 1940s cattle cart, along with all others deemed undesirable by the Governing Body, before being dispatched to the great extermination camp of Armageddon.
This is not a case of “follow us, or don’t fly,” this is a case of “follow us, or die.”
But this doomsday aspect of Jehovah’s Witness theology is so repugnant to most ordinary people that Watchtower must do its best to obfuscate it wherever possible.
Even most JWs you may encounter on the street, if pressed on the matter, will deny that literally billions of people, including children, are in line for mass slaughter if their hopes and expectations come to fruition. Their continued state of subservience to their religion depends on them not thinking things through to their fullest, most grisly conclusion.
All that deception and mischaracterization aside, arguably the most repugnant and disturbing aspect of this vile cartoon is that it sets out to recruit JW children to impose the organization’s homophobic bigotry on any classmates who happen to have gay or lesbian parents.
When I was growing up as a JW I recall being indoctrinated into believing that homosexuality was to be condemned. But I don’t remember once being told to actively seek out homosexuals, or children of homosexuals, to badger them with my beliefs. All that, apparently, has now changed. Watchtower has thrown its hat in with all the other sickly Christian evangelicals whose crusade is to stamp out homosexuality wherever it surfaces.
If you want to see what the end game is of preaching hate in this way, you need only watch the documentary “God Loves Uganda,” which is currently running on Netflix. It shows how U.S. evangelicals have taken a loathsome message that has zero credibility in their homeland, and cynically flooded Uganda with it – a country whose populace have limited access to education and are therefore easy pickings for those who spew ignorance and bigotry.
And before I am accused of trying to persuade people towards atheism by making this film recommendation, I should point out that two heroes of the film are Reverend Kaoma and Bishop Senyonjo. By the end of the film, I wanted to reach into my screen and hug them both.
Despite being Christians they could plainly see the real danger posed by evangelical homophobic fanaticism, and were doing their best in the face of unspeakable brutality to urge love, respect and tolerance.
Now it seems Watchtower, having already embraced televangelism, are also now quite happy to count themselves among the small-minded homophobic hate-mongers who stain our society. And rather than lead the hateful charge themselves, the likes of Tony Morris and his Governing Body cronies are content to hide behind a newly-formed army of school-age foot-soldiers who will take the heat for them.
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Further reading…
◾Metro article
◾Independent article
◾Inquisitr article
◾The Friendly Atheist article
◾Rawstory article
◾Complex article
◾Wetpaint article
◾Pink News article
◾Wonkette article
◾Gaystarnews article
◾SDGLN.com article
◾Same Same article
◾Newnownext article
◾The Daily Dot article
◾The Stranger article
◾The Gaily Grind article
◾Dangerous Minds article
◾TheNewCivilRightsMovement.com article
◾Progressive Secular Humanist article
◾JoeMyGod.com article
◾Watchtower’s New “Toy Story” – What Parents Need to Know
◾Sparlock a year later: Non-JWs in uproar on YouTube
◾Cough up kids! Watchtower needs your ice cream money
◾“Pay attention or die” – A disturbing glimpse of JW child indoctrination at work
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← News Bulletin: Secret Watchtower documents once again demanded in new US court case.
The Friday Column: Leave no man behind →
361 Responses to Why Watchtower should be ashamed of its new homophobic child propaganda cartoon
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Tara says:
May 4, 2016 at 6:27 am
I would actually be quite happy in marrying a gay guy because the ones I know are loving and kind. My ex was sexually abusive, mentally abusive and narcissistic. I would love the companionship of someone who didn’t see me as just something to screw.
I have G and L family members and they are lovely. I mentioned them a few times when I was ‘in’ and actually had jw’s say ‘oh I am so sorry, that must be awful for you….’
Now mt granddaughter, she’s 7, will be exposed to this. I have already passed the video on to my son and told him to pass it to his lawyer (who was married to a jw). Hopefully it can be used when they go to court, in some way.
Reply
Twmack says:
May 4, 2016 at 7:42 am
“Methinks they do protest too much”. Recent verbal
attacks on homosexuals ( Tight pants designers and
wearers), And now this thoughtless and humanity
hating video, directed at young undeveloped minds.
It makes one wonder if those who authorised this trashy
product. are not in the closet themselves.
As Lloyd has shown in his assessment of the video.
Citing the Bible as the absolute authority on lifestyle
leads into a minefield of contradictions.
Reply
Winston Smith says:
May 4, 2016 at 5:43 pm
Twmack
Wouldn’t surprise me if you are correct. I mean think about how hard they slam masturbation and I know based on the reports of numerous bethelites that it is very prevalent at the headquarters. I have also heard that they outlawed wrestling and play fighting at bethel because some of young men were becoming aroused by it.
WS
Reply
Chiafade says:
May 5, 2016 at 11:36 pm
“Don’t get involved with wrestling in your underwear brothers. One minute your wrestling on the floor the all of a sudden you’re a homo”. – George Couch deceased governing body member.
When I was a dub a bethelite in my hall told me about that one. It was in their Monday night lecture. My brother who’s also a bethelite confirmed that story for me.
Reply
Fooledmeonce says:
May 6, 2016 at 12:29 am
Yes, that is very true! I know the two Bethelites that were disfellowshipped for homosexuality after they were wrestling and it led to sex. Obviously it was the ‘wrestling in underwear’ that was the ‘problem’. But that’s what the small-minded morons thought.
Reply
KinseyScale6 says:
May 7, 2016 at 8:34 pm
WS – it’s this simple causal-reasoning that contributed to my awakening, plus having analytical thinking somewhere north of average. It reflects a lack of wanting to understand something and participants easily dismissed with labels as aberrant, evil and disgusting.
So, to think individuals are born homosexual or have genetic disposition, the concept of the Kinsey Scale, Gender Dysphoria, or Bisexuality exists, even as phases of sexual development and maturity–natural–is not up for debate in the Watchtower world (outside the Watchtower world this debate over homosexuality causes has been ranging since the 1950’s). It doesn’t exist, and if it is in the world it is considered evil.
It’s as if any “joy” and “entertainment” from sex and genitals is a “deadly sin” (lust) and “sex organs” (Watchtower speak) are procreative instruments–tools.
The Watchtower’s literature on sex turns it into a clinical experiment in procreation; gender into a boot camp on dominance and submission, and childhood into a nightmare of fear and striving to please You-know-who, who may or may not ever be totally pleased, so work harder and harder.
Conveniently they do adopt the psychology of the past which described homosexuality as mental illness yet downplaying any benefit of modern psychology and psychiatry in treatment of severe mental illness and anxiety.
Reply
Kaytee says:
May 4, 2016 at 7:48 am
My husband and I watched the above takedown of this horrible video without knowing our 7 y/o daughter was paying attention. We paused after it was over and asked her what she thought. She replied, “I wish I had two moms!” then, looking at my husband, “can I have two dads too?” We looked at each-other and cracked up! Homophobia is learned, it’s not something children do naturally.
Until just a few weeks ago, we mindlessly made our kids watch these videos. Thankfully, it now appears we suck at child indoctrination. I was so afraid for so long that my children wouldn’t decide to be JWs. The most wonderful part of waking up for me has been the peace of knowing I’ll never have to choose between them and Watchtower. I was always pretty sure Watchtower would lose that fight, which made me feel inadequate and sinful. Imagine that! I felt the fact that I wouldn’t be able to shun my children meant I could never please God! Such a messed-up world view.
If we hadn’t made our minds up before now, this video would have been the last straw anyway. Hopefully, there are many other Witnesses that feel the same way. I can’t wait until my husband finds a job with a non-JW company, so we can cut ties completely!
Reply
Cedars says:
May 4, 2016 at 8:03 am
That was an amazing comment. Thanks for sharing! 🙂
Reply
Kaytee says:
May 4, 2016 at 11:46 am
Thank you! I’ve spent the last 10 days here and on jwfacts. I feel like I’ve dived into ice water!
I watched the video you made for your lovely little girl twice with my husband and youngest (she insisted on an encore). It’s beautiful, and how we feel about our children.
How anybody could look at a little girl’s drawing of her parents hand-in-hand in a sunny meadow and see something wrong (as Sophia apparently did) has always been beyond me! What is the end-goal? Breaking up a happy family simply because the parents share a biological sex? No, that is the exact opposite of loving.
Reply
Cedars says:
May 4, 2016 at 12:41 pm
I can totally relate to how bracing it is to first start foraging online for decent info. I’m also glad you liked my video for Jessica. Well done for finding freedom, and immediately passing it on to your kids. It’s the best gift you can give them! 🙂
Reply
Idontknowhatodo says:
May 5, 2016 at 7:47 am
I relate to that amazing feeling that you have when you start on the path of freeing your mind…I devoured everything especially this site and jwfacts…then I watched all of the jw part of the Australian Royal Commission and I have never looked back… kind people on this site encouraged me to take it steady and fade because my husband and children are still deeply ‘in’ and the invaluable advice off Lloyd to have a strategy!… so important it is my mantra…I have a part time job now and am studying for a degree..Im still fading I havn’t reported for 6 months and fortunately though my husband is rver hopeful I will go back he doesnt pressure me…I will always be grateful to this site and Lloyd..at some points I was visiting it 4 to 5 times a day… it kept me sane!… we are all with you
Reply
Kaytee says:
May 5, 2016 at 1:23 pm
Thank you! Everyone here is so kind and supportive! Needless to say, this community is nothing like the hateful, bitter apostates they talk about.
I’m glad I’m not the only one obsessed with factual information at first! It feels like I have to counter every single bit of misinformation, no matter how small.
Cappytan says:
May 5, 2016 at 5:32 am
I loved your comment.
I wish you were my sister-in-law. I really miss my niece and nephews.
Reply
Kaytee says:
May 5, 2016 at 12:31 pm
I’m so sorry for the loss of your family! It’s agonizing having to choose between ones true self and family. Nobody should be forced into such a choice.
Reply
Kaytee says:
May 5, 2016 at 1:38 pm
I wanted to add: I wish I was your sister-in-law too! My family will be shunning us, I’m sure, as soon as they know. It’s an evil policy!
Reply
Queen Elsa says:
May 5, 2016 at 11:12 am
I sincerely wish my husband would see the madness. I envy you…
Reply
Kaytee says:
May 5, 2016 at 12:56 pm
Apparently my husband awoke a few years ago, and was hanging on because he didn’t want to “rock the boat.” I had no idea at the time, but I can see now how he was subtly trying to plant doubts.
The thing that finally got to me wasn’t “apostate” at all (or I would never have looked at it), but was an article about “shame-based systems.” It was a shocking read for me, because it describes almost perfectly what life as a JW is actually like! I thought it was describing problems with other religions, so I was okay with reading it.
The article is here: http://www.truthandgracecounseling.com/uploads/WHAT_IS_A_SHAME-BASED_SYSTEM.doc
It’s funny, but I guess I was kind of “won without a word.” I sincerely hope your husband has a similar epiphany soon!
Reply
Phil says:
May 7, 2016 at 5:58 am
Wonderful comment Kaytee.
Like your husband I had doubts most of my life but couldn’t bring myself to ‘rock the boat’ as you say. However it finally took a moral issue to do it!
Someone I cared about greatly did something that would get them dis-fellowshiped because of a bad situation they had found themselves in. I trawled through the literature looking for loop holes, but there weren’t any.
Basically the wtbts’s stance was simple, if I was an Israelite I would be expected to take this person outside the camp and stone them to death !!!
Well that was something I could not do!! I realized that I would rather take on Jehovah with bare fists than do that to someone I cared about.
So I had come to the conclusion that I had MUCH higher moral standards than ‘Jehovah’. With that realization it was easy to walk away from such evil nonsense!!
Reply
Twmack says:
May 4, 2016 at 8:09 am
Bible approved lifestyle.– Girls, if there’s no other
man around to get you in the family way “Get your
father to do the job,
It’s OK if he’s a righteous man like Lot. A man who
who was sick of the depraved things going off in
Sodom and Gomorrah. 2 Pet, 2:7.
Reply
Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:
May 4, 2016 at 8:45 am
The Watchtower will never be ashamed… They still have a pen to write about the secrets of the Kingdom…
*** g81 11/8 p. 21 Is the Bible a White Man’s Book? ***
European nations, although claiming to be Christian, have quarreled and fought right through their turbulent history, this strife reaching a climax in this century in World Wars I and II, and now are making frantic preparations for World War III. And instead of proclaiming God’s kingdom, they look to a man-made political organization, the United Nations, as man’s only hope.
Reply
KinseyScale6 says:
May 7, 2016 at 9:15 pm
@haki – ah, yes, the 80’s when they (and the other fundamentalists) were striving to reach out to the minority neighborhoods since the “white men (& women)” weren’t buying (ie: sending donations) this κραπ any more. Jim Baker & wife, that whole Heritage USA thingy, then Tilton & Marte, Roberts Sr (give me money or I will die), etc–go figure..
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/televangelist-tilton-wife-to-separate/article_e91dcce0-ed42-50d5-baa4-875cf8e6bb22.html
Reply
Bridgette says:
May 4, 2016 at 8:52 am
I have an infant and even though I am still trapped in the org, I resolved to never show her this crap while I was pregnant. I’m hoping this video wakes up others, including my husband. Ridiculous garbage!
Reply
Searcher says:
May 4, 2016 at 9:28 am
Whatever happened to the words of Christ, “He who is sinless cast the first stone.” Oh yeah, I forgot! They conveniently removed that from there newest ‘revision’ of the bible, because it hits this kind of propaganda right between the eyes.
As far a Sophia ‘witnessing’ to the child with two moms, I hope that Sophia’s mom teaches her how to duck a punch along with it. I see one kid who loves her family very much being very defensive about such a witness. Yep! Sophia might well learn what ‘persecution’ is all about when trying to push your views on someone else.
Reply
Freed Mason says:
May 5, 2016 at 3:07 am
Exactly – the freedom of speech in most lands that allows you to ‘preach’ from door to door, hold public conventions and gatherings also allows people of different sexual orientations the same freedom of speech, belief and actions. When you push your beliefs on other people – especially you own and other people’s children (who have no idea of what they are signing up to) expect a very strong push back.
Reply
Plopboy says:
May 4, 2016 at 9:34 am
Seems to me they are simply following what the bible says about homosexuality so your problem is more with the scriptures than JWs in this case.
Reply
Big B says:
May 4, 2016 at 12:19 pm
A question for you Plopboy; If medical science can prove that people are born with a propensity of being “gay” (a gay gene if you will) why should God punish them with destruction if they have no choice in the matter. Can a leopard change his spots or could he naturally eat grass like a bull?
I say, let a perfect God and the “Son of Man” judge people without our imperfect interpretation and renderings of the Hebrew Scriptures. Now that a loving God has removed the obligation of the Mosaic Law from Christians we can approach him with the ransom. God loves sinners (not their sinning) otherwise the sending of his Son would be for naught.
I think we can all agree that we live where the strict interpretation of the Torah, or even the Islamic Sir-ea Law, is not followed because there would be few individuals that could stand up to its strict standards.
As far as I’m concerned J.W.’s who are allowing shenanigans concerning their pedophile protection policy’s to continue (with their ridiculous two witness rule) poses more danger to not only those in the Kingdom Hall but places the entire community at risk. Why? Because the elders will not report the offender to local authorities. In my opinion, this poses more of a risk to society than what sexual acts consenting adults care to perform in the privacy of their homes.
A better, more instructional cartoon would have been to show the children telling their parents of “improper touching” while in field service by an elder. Then showing the parents contacting the Local Authorities after nothing is done by the congregational body of elders. (Let’s put this matter in Jehovah’s hands). This would be more believable than the “two mommies” scenario in my book. Yeah, fat chance that ever happens. 🙂
Reply
Covert Fade says:
May 4, 2016 at 1:51 pm
Watchtower: “Consensual gay sex is WRONG! Now come over here and help me not report all these pedophiles.”
Reply
Tilli says:
May 4, 2016 at 10:32 pm
I’m curious where the Bible says the stuff shown in this video.
Reply
Darth Fader says:
May 4, 2016 at 10:26 am
In the 1930’s and 40’s the Nazis used the same child indoctrination techniques to dehumanize their imagined opponents, the Jews in particular. The Nazis printed story books and made cartoons for their little ones to poison their minds and make it OK to kill these demonized ones. We all know what this type of child indoctrination leads to.
The unfortunate result of this will be that JW kids will become the ones that will be persecuted for this stance taken by the Governing Body. Expect to see Young ones trotted out at future conventions and assemblies to tell how heroically they took a beating at school while taking a stand for the CEO’s of a Billion Dollar Publishing Corporation.
Reply
SuzI Drums says:
May 4, 2016 at 12:25 pm
This, even more than their previous child-targeted videos, shows how they are usurping the parents’ rights to exercise their best judgment as to what, when and how to teach their children. The assumption that these videos are safe for children to watch on their own could leave parents with nasty surprises in the form of calls from schools, angry parents and even lawyers.
Reply
PeterB says:
May 4, 2016 at 12:38 pm
This comment will not go over well with this community Mr. Scott. I know what you are trying to express, I feel the same way. But this community is focused on one thing, and that is to expose JW as a hopelessly failing- evil cult. (This community takes advantage of “freedom of speech” but doesn’t realize that the USA government along with their elite buddies have been inching closer and closer to their plans of removing “free speech” and removing most of the constitution in order to bring in a “New World Order”. Hellooooo…9/11 was totally an inside job. This community still watches mainstream news outlets and believes that one day mankind will make beautiful changes…LOL Why the extensive parentheses you might ask…because knowing the facts about a shadow government will allow one question and investigate their current stance even deeper.) I have recently decided to take up studying with JWs again in spite of all I read on here. Let me tell you, I hate their policies regarding the handling of abuse cases. There is something dead wrong about that. But, I already knew this and still have a passion for studying the bible with them specifically. Here’s why. (The following are mainly for those who still believe on God) As I mentioned before, most of my spare time from the ages of 19 until now (37), have been studying religion. It has always intrigued me. It always made sense to me that “IF” there was a God, and “IF” there was an inspired book to lead people in a direction HE desired, and “IF” there was a “way”, and IF there all this that we see since man has fucked up in the Garden of Eden is just an alternate world that should have never taken place to begin with…and IF these are the “last days” (hell yea they are, I don’t need religion to tell me that)…”IF” all these are to be taken seriously…then (if you minus the top things that bother you about Watchtower/JWs), I come to the conclusion that this is THE ORGANIZATION that tried it’s best in these “days” (20&21st century) to round up as many people as possibly by way of a big ass preaching & teaching (door to door) campaign that this world will never see again. That one thing alone made me seek them out again. JW is an Org that is full of problems, full of sinful leaders, prideful and clueless sheeple, among other things that bring pain to thousands within it’s walls. But, after studying with other religions (including independent folks that just like to read in to the scriptures), I know there is corruption everywhere. But i believe God looks down and sees everything! He knows what is flawed. I’ll bet Moses was doing all kinds of things exactly like the JWs Governing Body. I’ll bet Korah in the bible had even more garbage to lay out there against Moses than we read in the Bible. But, still Moses was the one. The GB is one hell of a sinful group. But I believe the work of JWs is proof enough that they are special. Just simply teaching the “good news” in the unprecedented scale that we’ve scene is good enough. Everything that’s wrong with the ORG…God will deal with it. But according to what I read…this group had one job. One main job. They have done it. Now getting back to the government and the Gay movement…It’s all by design. Do you know what’s in your tap water? Food? Do you know what planes are leaving in the sky for us to breath? Listen to Alex Jones on infowars.com You’ll understand. So anyway, I am at work typing away…and now im rushing my thoughts but- well the bible is clear on the subject of homosexuality. That’s not to say we must treat them unkindly though.
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PeterB says:
May 4, 2016 at 2:11 pm
*correction in my horrible grammar* It always made sense to me that “IF” there was a God, and “IF” there was an inspired book to lead people in a direction HE desired, and “IF” there was a “way”, and IF all this that we see since the beginning of time when man fucked up in the Garden of Eden is just an alternate world that should never have even taken place to begin with…and IF these are the “last days” (hell yea they are, I don’t need religion to tell me that)…
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Grace says:
May 4, 2016 at 3:25 pm
So in your conspiracy, how do you know if the Watchtower wasn’t set up by these ‘shadow men’ as a way to draw people in & create a sheeplike attitude that would be easy to manoeuvre into the “new world order”. Is it coincidental that the Watchtower uses the same symbolic language that the Freemasons did?
Like the following:
“Jehovah”
“The Watchtower”
“Millenium Dawn”
“The Golden Age”
“New World”
“New System”
Elders
Anointed
Admonish
Brotherhood
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Outandabout says:
May 6, 2016 at 2:35 am
And how do you know that Satan hasn’t taken over the Watchtower (seven headed beast and seven GB members) and is laughing his head off at the thought of taking another eight million unsuspecting souls on judgment day? Everything is a conspiracy if that’s the way you want it. I can recommend a good Therapist if you like. Can be reached on 0800 iamnuts.
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Big B says:
May 4, 2016 at 5:05 pm
PeterB;
So glad to read your comments. My, my… so many “if’s and’s and but’s”. I have a question for you my friend, which also happens to be the same question I asked my Elders after 55 years of association before fading, namely; if Jehovah is infallible (the epitome of perfection), and the Holy Spirit emanating from Jehovah is also perfect, then it stands to reason that although written by imperfect men his word is also perfect. Yes?
However, his so called “spirit directed organization” (Watchtower) has been wrong so many times it staggers the imagination. Can the Holy Spirit be wrong? Not according to the Inspired Word! So if the Watchtower has it and we all agree the Holy Spirit emanates from God, I suggest to you that not only do they not have it, they have never had it.
For example; the three Cadillac driving, three home owing, drunken sot President of the Society, J.F Rutherford’s “Million’s now living will never die” speeches. This nonsense of his was pronounced back in the late 1920’s early 1930’s. Where are those millions now? Dead as a door nail.
Also his “Advertise, Advertise, Advertise the King and his Kingdom” oh, and while your cold calling the public from door to door, be sure to sell my books. He never went door to door once but had no problem sending others out dispensing his nonsense. And what Pulitzer prize, N.Y. Times best sellers they were to. Such winning titles such as: “Children”, “Enemies”, etc. You won’t find many of these ‘one word wonders’ around anymore.
Also, and I personally lived through this one, namely the mantra “Door to Door in ’74 to be alive in ’75”. If they had been telling the “Truth” we would be 41 years into the New System by this October. Well come to find out (New Light) we are not in the LAST DAYS but “the beginnings of the pangs of distress”.
Also with the July 15, 2013 Watchtower, C.T. Russell and followers have been proven not to be Gods instrument for dispensing spiritual food.
Don’t get me started on the fact that Jehovah’s Witnesses now have a “Rapture” as shown in the same Watchtower (see the chart).
This “New Light” can be interpreted to show that Armageddon is a long distance away, more so than anyone now living will see. In other words, the “Great Crowd” who are to survive are not even born yet! That assumes that Armageddon is not symbolic of something else in a book written in signs and symbols.
Because of their outing, by the Guardian newspaper, in reference to their membership as a NGO (Non Governmental Organization) in the United Nations, which they were members of for 10 years, they now suffer the extreme consequences of Jehovah’s displeasure.
This is because they (the Watchtower) themselves identified the Scarlet Colored Beast in 1942-43 by then President N.H. Knorr. This idea was carried over in the Society’s 1963 book “Babylon the Great has fallen; God’s Kingdom Rules”. How could God’s spirit directed organization involve themselves with Satan’s organization, you might ask? AS WELL YOU SHOULD!
I challenge you to pose these questions to your body of elders and see what happens to you. Especially since you are now corresponding on an “apostate site.”
As a closing thought, as spoken on the site exjw critical thinker on youtube, “better to have “questions” you cannot answer than “answers” you cannot question”. 🙂
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PeterB says:
May 4, 2016 at 5:57 pm
Gods people throughout the bible were never perfect like god is. Nowhere in the bible does it say that in the last days God would have a perfect Org. Nowhere!
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Big B says:
May 4, 2016 at 6:55 pm
PeterB: Nowhere does the Bible say that he would have an earthly Organization either or “a faithful and discrete slave that everyone will be accountable to” or one mention of a “Paradise Earth” either! Type that on your Watchtower CD. Rom Library, just as I have, and see how many times that expression comes up in the Sacred Scriptures. (Spoiler Alert!) Not ONCE. Surprised?
Both my parents, all of my aunts and uncles followed this cult since the 1950’s only to die discouraged, disappointed, unfulfilled, and disillusioned. But I’ll bet one thing “Paradise Earth” and “Armageddon” are pipe dreams. And what is at the end of a pipe? A whole lot of nothing (maybe excrement).
Again, do your research and see for yourself or you will waste many opportunities for personal fulfillment working for
a “doomsday cult” like I did for over 55 years. The final decision where to place your trust, my friend, is yours but my “ask your elders challenge still stands, if you’re up to it”.
Good Luck and keep searching. The real Truth is out there or not? 🙂
Ejecting to Sanity says:
May 6, 2016 at 10:14 pm
A Caution with Hood Intentions-
As you are around meetings more you are bound to hear the phrases ‘a little leaven spoils the whole loaf..’ and. ‘ If an apple had one drop if poison (or a cup of water had a drop) , would you drink it?’
Over and over and over , JWS are taught to automatically reject other religions as false due to lack of perfection. Satanic.
Therefore Members are drilled to agree with inevitable conclusion:
If the Borg is teaching the truth, if I have found true worship..then..
The Borg is not satanic.
The Borg is not false.
Therefore, lucky members, the Borg is perfect.
No, not the men…But their printed words, their policies, interpretations, their discipline, hierarchy, judgements, etc…perfect.
You must be in agreement with absolutely everything the GB and corporation does, says, prints, thinks..
Ridiculing and judging other faiths, ministers, and members privately, in comments and (amazingly enough) from the platform is common and accepted.
Very recent experience – straight from the platform. Within the last 6 mo. Brother Elder ridiculed a local church because they had an ad in the paper for a part time secretary. How shameful that they had to pay someone and not have a volunteer. Obviously, we ALL KNOW that this is an immediate sign of false worship, right?? The many faces of judgement…
As far as overlooking or ‘waiting on Jehovah’ to deal with the pedophile pestilence, the blackmail of shunning, the homophobia, the UN scandal, the Malawi/Mexico unjustice, the Idol worship of GB and JW.org, and the many other Secrets…you should remember that a good JW is taught that any connection to a sinner or sinful group is equally as guilty. And that silent observation and/or agreement is indeed a sin and unacceptable.
I understand that one wants to look for the good and let the bad settle, but as we’ve heard a 1000 times ‘Get out of her!!’
Ejecting to Sanity says:
May 6, 2016 at 10:26 pm
They definitely were not perfect people, agreed. It’s not the Bible that is demanding perfection. It’s the Borg, the JB, the WT that elevates the leaders, the policies. I’ve left not to leave God or the Bible but to leave this sad center of dubious character…
Searcher says:
May 9, 2016 at 10:22 am
@PeterB,
I read your post and said to myself, “Uhhhh, he’s kidding! Right?” I respect your right to an opinion, and you should have a right to express it. You seem like a good person with good intentions. I appreciate that you care for our well being by sharing your post. However, after reading it, I think you need to step back a bit and reflect on what you have said. I would highly recommend watching Dr. Michael Shermer’s, “Baloney Detection Kit” video on You-Tube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJmRbSX8Rqo.
As far as shadow governments and airplanes spraying mind-control gas, see a therapist and stop listening to people stirring up such nonsense. You want freedom taken away by a shadowy organization, then just follow the Watchtower! They’ll make sure you claim crazy stuff.
Just relax man, enjoy life, enjoy freedom, and don’t get jazzed up so much from less credible agendas.
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Gorbatchov says:
May 4, 2016 at 1:29 pm
The video is going viral in Netherlands nationsl media. The branch office gave an official reaction that the video is for JW children and interested and not for the general public. It’s not intended for offending people. If it does on large scale it could be concidered to take it offline. It is out freedom of speech was his final conclusion.
People reacted they will report the video to the local police.
So, bad imago media for jw.
Gorby
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Covert Fade says:
May 4, 2016 at 1:53 pm
Wow, they actually used the “it’s not for you, it’s for our children only” line?
Yeah, THAT doesn’t sound sketchy at ALL! 😀 😀 Sounds like perfectly reasonable non-cult behaviour. Heh heh. Oh well, I guess that’s what happens when your PR team didn’t get a higher education…
Can you share a link? I’d love to see it
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mitch67 says:
May 5, 2016 at 3:08 am
well do they not encourage people to get on their website and see those cartoons?
oddly it is not on the German website..
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mitch67 says:
May 5, 2016 at 3:10 am
but it is on their officilal english language site which they advertise for in public.
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JBob says:
May 7, 2016 at 9:24 pm
@Covert Fade – That’s what the Bethelites at HQ–er, district overseers–dang it!!–Gov Body members told Netherlands to say.
However, “is for JW children and interested and not for the general public” — so, Sophia should just watch the video and not actually try to convince her schoolmate that her parents are evil and will be “overcooked weiners” after Armageddon?
Did I get that TMorris quote right? So, I guess Jehovah is back to using hell fire? By cracky those old rural Baptists were right, “no more water, but by the fire this time”..
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Gorbatchov says:
May 4, 2016 at 2:18 pm
@Covert fade, here are some links of the national media in the Netherlands covering the news about the jw.org video:
http://www.rtlnieuws.nl/editienl/jehovas-maken-kinderfilm-homos-niet-welkom-het-paradijs
http://www.trouw.nl/tr/nl/4492/Nederland/article/detail/4294749/2016/05/04/COC-boos-op-Jehova-s-om-kinderfilmpje.dhtml
http://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland/kritiek-op-jehovah-s-getuigen-om-anti-homo-kinderfimpje~a4294809/
http://www.ad.nl/ad/nl/1012/Nederland/article/detail/4294662/2016/05/04/Commotie-om-video-Jehovah-s-over-homohuwelijk.dhtml
http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/25726326/__Jehova_s__LHTB_s_naar_de_hel__.html
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Covert Fade says:
May 4, 2016 at 2:50 pm
Wonderful! Thank you 😀
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Average Joe says:
May 5, 2016 at 12:06 am
Dank u wel Gorby!
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JWIntellect says:
May 4, 2016 at 6:24 pm
This is not a case of “follow us, or don’t fly,” this is a case of “follow us, or die.”
I loved this line!
Excellent article, as always, Mr. Evans.
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Markie says:
May 4, 2016 at 8:11 pm
For what it’s worth, there is a Reverend named Vernon Dozier that uses electroshock therapy and aversion technics to cure homosexuality. I remember he cured one fellow named Warren Benman right on the Phil Hendrie Show.
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Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:
May 4, 2016 at 11:20 pm
Wonderfully said, This is not a case of “follow us, or don’t fly,” this is a case of “follow us, or die.”
Is history repeating itself?
*** w60 10/1 p. 598 The Church Started with the Holy Scriptures ***
“When the crusaders at last stormed Jerusalem, July 15, 1099, they drove all the Jews into one of the synagogues and there burned them alive. . . . The religious zeal fomented by the Crusades burned as fiercely against the Jews as enemies of Christ as against the Moslems. Thus both economically and socially the Crusades were disastrous for European Jews.”
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Freed Mason says:
May 5, 2016 at 12:03 am
This is a form of child abuse, these videos will only cause emotional upset and conflict for the witness children who watch them, their teachers and classmates. I cannot imagine how a loving parent would allow their child to watch this mental indoctrination at such a vulnerable and impressionable age. I sincerely hope that the UK Charity Commission is aware of this content and it is removed immediately. You can expect a huge backlash to this content from normal, law abiding, tax paying humans that have a freedom of choice in terms of their sexual orientation.
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Will says:
May 5, 2016 at 7:15 am
I agree @Freed Mason. This is child abuse. You are opening the doors to your child getting bullied for his or intolerance or getting the sh** beat of of him or her– self-imposed persecution.
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ruthlee says:
May 5, 2016 at 12:22 am
I always thought it interesting they named their cartoon boy Caleb. That means dog does it not, and what is the hire of a dog euphemistic for in Biblical terms? Some one somewhere on the writing team was having a little in joke going on. The witness leadership are sick puppies.Oh the day we see Sophia get baptised and then two years later d’fd for crimes against watchtower. I’m sure there are some jdumb kids who think these cartoons are real. I have a new suggestion for the gb spies on this site… How about a t shirt campaign with your two little darlings sweet eyed asking us and our kids for MORE money. guilt is not working , extortion did for a bit but I reckon the charm offensive will do nicely. yours everso cynically Ruthlee
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mitch67 says:
May 5, 2016 at 3:06 am
in German the boy is called Philipp…;-)
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JBob says:
May 7, 2016 at 9:42 pm
@ruthlee – the “in joke”? Caleb – yes, does seem to derive from dog, but the Biblical story is that Caleb was a spy. The rest of the spies as Numbers 13 relates were timid of taking on the inhabitants to conquer while Caleb was sure of conquering the Promised Land.
But, let’s focus on spying. Once you have indoctrinated the children, who runs and runs their mouths at the most inconvenient time “spilling all the beans” to grandparents, neighbors, spouses, or elders?
Sophia is derived from Greek for “wisdom” and this could be linked to gnosis or knowledge via intelligence. So, what we’re revealing is something akin to the youth movements where children are used by authorities to report on insurgent (or insubordinate) parents.
It’s like this is some psy-op experiment in turning mass population into subservient and willing subjects (regardless of what the leadership says or does) negating need of and expense of an enforcement agency to police the population being dominated.
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Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:
May 5, 2016 at 2:37 am
The Watchtower are crook. They say “Telephone sex is one of the means that Satan the Devil is using to corrupt young ones today.” (g04 2/22 p. 21) but keep feeding our children with “SEX IN THE BIBLE”!
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Doc Obvious says:
May 5, 2016 at 5:41 am
How interesting that Watchtower puts out a video against Same-Sex Couples, but gave them the right to marry based on a United States Supreme Court case from the 1960’s.
A USA today article titled, “How Jehovah’s Witnesses helped kill Prop 8”, shows how a court case involving the rights of Same-Sex Couple to Marry were upheld by a precedent set by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society.
Here is the link to that very article, How Jehovah’s Witnesses helped kill Prop 8
It also has the whole case transcript as a link in the article.
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Tara says:
May 5, 2016 at 6:27 am
Has anyone heard any responses from JW’s or the GB etc? Netherlands, as I have read made a response but anything from anywhere else?.
What about the gay community? How are they viewing, no pun intended, this?
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JBob says:
May 7, 2016 at 9:48 pm
@Tara – total outrage, but the LGBT community–global community–has been battling this sort of bigotry for years now, so the Watchtower is a newcomer to the fighting ring while the LGBT community are veteran contenders.
The Watchtower & JW’s claim to be non-political and neutral, but these sorts of videos prove my point that it is impossible to be neutral when you have an active theology that opposes a group of people–be it Muslim, Jewish, LGBT–everyone else, except apparently pedophiles.
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JBob says:
May 7, 2016 at 9:54 pm
forgot to add–in the past, the JW organization didn’t suggest children make statements like this to their classmates. Children were encouraged to share their beliefs but not to JUDGE others for their beliefs. This line of teaching is straight out of fundamentalist/evangelical camps–probably from converts picked up from those, or an attempt to compete with conservative evangelicals becoming politically active and outspoken against the so-called “gay agenda”.
Speaking of wife-beating..https://youtu.be/vdB9nTe4ldE
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Tara says:
May 9, 2016 at 6:53 am
I hope this gets wider publicity.
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Twmack says:
May 5, 2016 at 6:30 am
@ PeterB.
Gods people throughout the bible were never perfect like god is. Nowhere in the bible does it say that in the last days God would have a perfect Org. Nowhere!”.
Peter, It sounds like your study conductor is doing a good job on you.
Maybe the “Bible” doesn’t say God would have a perfect organisation,
but the “Watchtower” does and claims that position for its self.
Note the following.
1956 “Who controls the organization, who directs it? Who is at the head? A man? A group of men? A clergy class? A pope? A hierarchy? A council? No, none of these. How is that possible? In any organization is it not necessary that there be a directing head or policy-making part that controls or guides the organization? Yes. Is the living God, Jehovah, the Director of the theocratic Christian organization? Yes!” (Watchtower, November 1, 1956, p. 666).
Is God perfect or his he not? The Bible says he is, Deut,32:4, Ps, 18:30.
So claiming that an infallible source is controlling, guiding and policy
making can be interpreted no other way than saying this organisation
Is Perfect.
It’s only when they are forced into changing dates and flip flopping
on doctrine, they then adopt the fall back position. That we are only
fallible men. Peter I wish you well in your search for truth, but just
at present I think you’re looking entirely in the wrong place.
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PeterB says:
May 5, 2016 at 9:00 am
@Big B
Hmm, scriptures in Isiah and many others sure as hell sound like it’s hinting towards a restoration of a paradisiac situation. If not, then why the fuck is the earth here for? I totally prefer the idea that there would be some sort of “organization” for a people of God in our time to help understand a decent chunk of the Bible. To be organized.
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dee2 says:
May 5, 2016 at 10:49 am
Peter B:
“….scriptures in Isiah and many others sure as hell sound like it’s hinting towards a restoration of a paradisiac situation.”
– Which scriptures are these?
– How do these sctiptures “hint towards a restoration of a paradisiac situation”?
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rahab says:
May 6, 2016 at 2:28 am
it is good you hav indicated its your preference that there would be some sort of organization but certainly not the preference of God.you hav a right to prefer what you want but make sure you don’t go door to door peddling the lie that its a bible teaching
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PeterB says:
May 5, 2016 at 9:19 am
@Grace
I know all of the fact behind the shadow government- including all participating families, secret societies, government agencies, corporations and media. I know what their agenda has always been. I know all the terms and lingo within. If you knew, you all wouldn’t be so gleeful over Gay victories or Gun Control victories. If you only knew. If you put as much energy into investigating your government the way you do the WT, you would know that the WT is not and has never been connected…even if CT Russell was in some form to some degree of masonry. If you knew, then you would know the difference. If you only knew what you government is upto, you’d be protesting right now. If you only knew.
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dee2 says:
May 5, 2016 at 11:06 am
Peter B:
“If you only knew what you government is upto, you’d be protesting right now. If you only knew.”
So what is the government up to? Seems you are privy to some information which you need to share with us.
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Twmack says:
May 5, 2016 at 10:53 am
Is not religion the greatest conspiracy of all? The invention
of a God with awesome powers, someone we owe our life to
who loves us, but is capable of violent anger and terrible
retribution if offended.
Behind every religion is the “Hidden Elite” who use this
concept of of a schizophrenic monster, to keep the masses
subservient and compliant. His invisibility and no show is a
key factor in keeping the conspiracy or the illusion from
being Sussed out.
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PeterB says:
May 5, 2016 at 12:30 pm
@dee2
(KING JAMES)
Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
Isaiah 65:21-25 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent’s meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.
Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
http://biblehub.com/hcsb/psalms/37.htm
29The righteous will inherit the landar
and dwell in it permanently.
That doesn’t sound ANYTHING like a paradise earth right?
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dee2 says:
May 5, 2016 at 4:15 pm
PeterB,
“That doesn’t sound ANYTHING like a paradise earth right?”
– Paradise for whom? Who were these scriptures addressed to?
– Just my musings:
I’ve always wondered if wolves, leopards and lambs can actually dwell/lie down together?
Or if the calf and the young lion and the fatling can actually dwell/lie down together?
Can a little child safely lead wolves, leopards, and young lions?
Can wolves and lambs actually feed together, and lions eat straw like the bullock?
– Are you aware that persons will die in this Paradise?
Isaiah 65:22: “…….for as the days of a tree are the days of my people…….”
– Could you please explain how Isaiah 45:18 pertains to the Paradise?
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PeterB says:
May 5, 2016 at 12:49 pm
@dee2
As far as the Government. It’s so much for thrilling and sickeningly informative to do the research on your own. Go to the United Nations Website and look up Agenda 21. (then do research until the wee hours of the morning on that)
look up agenda 2030.
look up bohemian grove
look up Black Lives Matter (seriously)
look up the The Georgia Stones
Study the lay out, art and inscriptions of the White House and surrounding Gov buidlings
Research the origins of the Illuminati and the worship of the owl
look up Bill Clinton having sex with children
look up chemtrails and what they really are
look up plans for a NEW WORLD ORDER and what it means for you
watch Food Inc and see where all that connects
look up what fluoride in your water REALLY is
If you think that the twin towers fell at free fall speed in just under an hour of being hit by a plane…and that the impact of and fuel made them fall the way they did…LOL
Not to mention World Trade Center 7 (the 3rd building in NY to call that same day in the same fashion as the other 2…free fall speed like a controlled demo! In order to have those buildings fall perfectly it was going to take sophisticated top notch planning by top notch science. Not some fools in a cave in the East. Think.
Look up the real agenda behind gun control and the real planning behind all these mass shootings.
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ian york says:
May 5, 2016 at 1:40 pm
PeterB,
Perhaps you should be studying with Alex Jones, not JWs. Your conspiracy theories are most certainly NOT shared by them, and if your study conductor says they are then you are being humoured and drawn in, inch by inch. That’s how they do it. You’ll find they don’t contemplate anything beyond surface levels and always draw the most simplistic conclusions that fit their doomsday beliefs. You’re wasting your time. And actually I share some of your concerns: Agenda 21 etc.
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Daniel Roberts says:
May 6, 2016 at 1:36 am
Just because the government’s of this world are corrupt and deceitful, (Governments always have been) doesn’t mean that JW’S have the truth.
In fact, considering the deceit that the JW’S are guilty of, from revising their old literature to omit embarrassing false teachings and predictions, to even go so far as to revise THE BIBLE (no less) in order to better support their doctrines, to allow their members to stake and lose their lives on doctrinal demands based upon incorrect interpretation of scriptures – just to then recant on this ‘truth’ in favour of “new light’.
Truth doesn’t change.
Truth doesn’t need to be adjusted.
Truth doesn’t have to manipulated.
Truth either is, or isn’t.
If it isn’t…
Then it’s called Lies.
The JW organisation is built on lies.
It teaches lies.
You are being deceived by expert deceivers.
I think you already know this.
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dee2 says:
May 6, 2016 at 6:05 am
“Just because the government’s of this world are corrupt and deceitful, (Governments always have been) doesn’t mean that JW’S have the truth.”
Jim Jones People’s Temple cult leader:
“Will you tell me you believe in God out there? So what? What’s your sky God ever done? Two out of three nations in the world are hungry. Misery in every one of your homes. The only happiness you’ve found is when you’ve come to this earth God!
Your children were in difficulties. No one came to the jails. You prayed to your sky God and he never heard your prayers. You asked and begged and pleaded in your suffering … . He never provided a home, but I, your socialist God, have given you all these things. When your world has failed you, I’ll be standing because I am freedom. I am peace. I am Justice. I am God!”
(Source: Raven: The Untold Story of the Reverend Jim Jones and His People).
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Daniel Roberts says:
May 7, 2016 at 4:58 am
Jonestown. A symbol of just how deep and dark Christian fundamentalism can get.
The JW’S aren’t fair behind I fear.
Whilst not explicitly commanding it’s members to kill themselves in the name of their version of God – yet – They specifically instruct their members to die for JHVH in various ways.
I fear for my brother and his family, still completely entranced and mesmerised by the hypnotic power of this putrid cult.
Wish he’d get out before they give the Kool Aid command.
On another note that PeterB made regarding the ‘Worldwide preaching work’
Door to door.
Surely the least effective way to preach an urgent message?
Saving lives at the speed of………foot.
Slowly ambling around neighbourhoods, quietly confident that no one will be at home to hear the most lazily and incoherently delivered life saving message of all time.
At the very least the Mormons send out articulate people with a concise message into the field.
Not the witnesses. Children, mopey teenagers, the elderly, the uneducated.
Ambassadors for the kingdom, commissioned with the most important job in human history.
Saving humanity from imminent destruction… easily sent on their ambling way with a simple: ‘Not today thanks’.
I read a Wachtower article on JW.ORG this week which talks about the Rapture of the last remaining annointed ones during the great tribulation.
The article was so poorly written and so vague it was painful to read.
That 8 million people are wasting their lives and resources, hopes and future on this pack of lies is just so sad.
I hope my Bro finds the way out.
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dee2 says:
May 7, 2016 at 7:47 am
PeterB seems to believe that the WT has the answers to the problems in the world and he seems to be ignorant of the fact that cults exploit/use people’s dissatisfaction with the world, problems with the world, crises, catastrophes etc. to get persons to believe that their group has the answers which no other group has and they must be part of their group to be saved. Jim Jones did an excellent job at this and history tells us what the outcome was for Jim Jones and his followers.
Daniel Roberts says:
May 7, 2016 at 5:00 am
Jonestown. A symbol of just how deep and dark Christian fundamentalism can get.
The JW’S aren’t far behind I fear.
Whilst not explicitly commanding it’s members to kill themselves in the name of their version of God – yet – They specifically instruct their members to die for JHVH in various ways.
I fear for my brother and his family, still completely entranced and mesmerised by the hypnotic power of this putrid cult.
Wish he’d get out before they give the Kool Aid command.
On another note that PeterB made regarding the ‘Worldwide preaching work’
Door to door.
Surely the least effective way to preach an urgent message?
Saving lives at the speed of………foot.
Slowly ambling around neighbourhoods, quietly confident that no one will be at home to hear the most lazily and incoherently delivered life saving message of all time.
At the very least the Mormons send out articulate people with a concise message into the field.
Not the witnesses. Children, mopey teenagers, the elderly, the uneducated.
Ambassadors for the kingdom, commissioned with the most important job in human history.
Saving humanity from imminent destruction… easily sent on their ambling way with a simple: ‘Not today thanks’.
I read a Wachtower article on JW.ORG this week which talks about the Rapture of the last remaining annointed ones during the great tribulation.
The article was so poorly written and so vague it was painful to read.
That 8 million people are wasting their lives and resources, hopes and future on this pack of lies is just so sad.
I hope my Bro finds the way out.
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dee2 says:
May 7, 2016 at 7:50 am
PeterB seems to believe that the WT has the answers to the problems in the world and he seems to be ignorant of the fact that cults exploit/use people’s dissatisfaction with the world, problems with the world, crises, catastrophes etc. to get persons to believe that their group has the answers which no other group has and they must be part of their group to be saved. Jim Jones did an excellent job at this and history tells us what the outcome was for Jim Jones and his followers.
Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:
May 5, 2016 at 1:17 pm
Hypocrites are not easy to deal with. The Watchtower are today’s Pharisees.
*** w11 11/1 p. 7 Ten Questions About Sex Answered ***
Even though they do not condone homosexual relations, true Christians show kindness to all people. (Matthew 7:12) God wants us to “honor men of all sorts.” Therefore, genuine Christians are not homophobic.—1 Peter 2:17.
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Alice says:
May 5, 2016 at 5:05 pm
I know this is going to be an off topic comment. I want to share my experience, it may help someone. I was shunned by my JW brother and sister for twentyone years. After my husband died I started attending meetings so I could have family in my life. Now that they see I don’t go out in service and I am rarely going to meetings my JW family are shunning me again. The funny thing about this is that this time I really, honestly don’t care. I feel it’s their problem and not mine. This is the second time around for me being shunned by my JW family. THEY ARE THE ONLY FAMILY I HAVE yet in my brain I cut all ties with them. It took me a long time to do that. I realize I don’t want to be around people who treat me the way they do even though they are family. The society for me is a dictatorship. They dictate what you say, they dictate what you feel, they dictate your sex life, they dictate how your kids treat a lesbian couple and their child, they dictate how you look, they dictate what comes out of your mouth. The society treats everyone like muppets by pulling their strings. I feel calmer and less stress letting go.
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Julien says:
May 5, 2016 at 8:21 pm
Hi Alice. I think a lot of us have gone through the mental and emotional warfare of being shunned by our families. I tried for a while to stay in contact but once I had children and I caught them preaching to them I had to sever all ties. I think people drawn to this cult have an already existing precept and the jw doctrines just validated what they already beleived or they dont want to think for themselves. People who shun their family members are not people who loves us nor really comprehend what love really is. It is brainwashing and indoctrination. All we can do is not repeat their mistakes. Good luck to you.
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ruthlee says:
May 6, 2016 at 1:00 am
Hi Alice I am in a similar position in that all my relatives who were jws are dead. I have no one from my history. My kids are at that vulnerable age and I do not encourage them to do the stuff I did but they have a vast family ie my inlaws. Like you I am at that point where I don’t give a hoot anymore with them. I honestly don’t need their sarcastic comments and I dont mind if I never uttered another word to any of them. Icannot believe I think like this but somehow we get a strength without these people and don’t need their tightlipped judgement or their trivial gossip. In a way we grow up when we realise this religion is very shallow. If you are a bible reader and a Christian just think about the last time you actually had a conversation about spiritual matters and I’m not talking about speculative whacky ideas from Brooklyn. I think you will find this site with all it’s diversity has given you more to think about with regards your faith, belief and direction than you ever got fed by the famished jdubs So in that way we are not alone . In fact it starts a great journey of discovery. I downed tools last year no more watchtower for me and that has been liberating. It is surprising what the bible says and it is not what they teach. If you have to meet up with jdubs the best advice I heard from Ms Gaskin wear shunglasses. cheers Ruthlee
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Twmack says:
May 6, 2016 at 11:11 am
The wolf and lamb lying down together, the predator and
prey system abolished. “They will not hurt or destroy in all
my holy mountain”
To be meaningful, that promise has got to extend to all living
things. The mind just focuses on the larger animals, but
the predator prey relationship goes right down to the insect
world.
The screams of a fly trapped in a spiders web have been
amplified, it feels it experiences fear and terror, just as much
as a wildebeest being dragged under by a crocodile or a
zebra suffocated by a lion.
The more you meditate on this topic the more you realise how
foolish it is to interpret it literally. I look back and wonder where
my mind was when I thought this stuff was real. I think I must
have regressed to kindergarten.
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dee2 says:
May 6, 2016 at 12:04 pm
Imagine the scenario if all the carnivores/predators are converted to herbivores and there is no more food chain: death would only be as a result of aging, assuming that the animals are not going to live forever like humans, too – but then according to Revelation 21:4 it seems the animals may very well be living forever too since
“There will be no more death………for the old order of things has passed away.”
So now, with no more food chain, there would now be a potential risk of an out-of-control animal population…………welcome to Paradise.
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John says:
May 7, 2016 at 2:36 pm
The term “homophobia” seems distinctly Orwellian to me. Perhaps Mr Cedars could explain the rationale behind the use of this word.
A homophobic person is supposed to have an irrational fear and hatred towards homosexuals, based on the belief that sex between people of the same sex is wrong. This is a moral claim, which is not refuted by argument, but by an attack on the person’s character i.e. he/she has an irrational hatred towards such people.
This is simply fallacious reasoning, and a clear instance of the ad hominem fallacy.
It’s also something of a non sequitor. You are saying that if a person contends that a certain action is wrong, then they have an irrational fear and hatred of those who engage in that action. There is a fairly broad consensus that theft is wrong, but it does not follow that those holding this view are inciting hatred towards thieves.
If that was the case, then the only way to avoid such hatred would be to have no moral guidelines, which would be nihilism not love.
Those who are reacting so vehemently against this video are themselves making moral judgments. They are condemning those who say homosexual conduct is wrong, and are contributing to a climate of intolerance against those who hold such views. Could it not be said that they are also inciting a certain hatred towards such people? There is an bitter irony here regarding the issue of tolerance.
Is it fair to denigrate someone’s character on the basis of little or no evidence? I would contend that the homophobic label is little more than a smear tactic, designed to deny any rational debate. It is irrational contempt disguised as fake moral outrage.
You are also saying-in this instance-that a moral viewpoint (Biblically justified) is irrational.
I also take issue with Mr Cedars contention regarding the inevitability of sexual preferences: “Anybody remotely in tune with reality understands that homosexuality is not a “choice,” as so often portrayed by Christian fundamentalists. Straight people are born straight, and gay people are born gay.”
I would direct readers to an article on this subject, suggesting that such a contention is deeply flawed: https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/for-the-first-time-a-majority-of-americans-believe-homosexuals-are-born-tha
I look forward to any comments and will try to answer any reasonable objections.
Thank you for reading this.
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PeterB says:
May 7, 2016 at 2:45 pm
@John Great comment
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KinseyScale6 says:
May 7, 2016 at 10:27 pm
@Cedars – I got this one…
First, the definition of homophobic by Merriam-Webster is: “irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals.” We can tell from context that the article is focused on issue of Watchtower setting minds for the “discrimination against homosexuals” by creating their “love” as immoral. This was once true for miscegenation, as well. It was considered immoral (and still is in some Christian colleges) to date and marry black/brown/yellow/tan/olive to white.
“Who Produces LifeSiteNews?
The service was originally started by Campaign Life Coalition (CLC), a Canadian national pro-life organization headquartered in Toronto, Canada.”
I would suggest that the “balanced” research you’re inviting me to read is substantially biased by a conservative, perhaps religious, organization’s biased viewpoint.
And, what a coincidence there is a political organization in Canada which is quite the conservative Christian group, “The Campaign Life Coalition (often called Campaign Life) is a Canadian conservative Christian group that opposes abortion.” If Lee Atwater taught me anything, it’s that political conservatives believe the end does justify the means, regardless of the facts; he eventually repudiated those methods. I encourage you to look beyond your political camp for true data, and by the way, if you’re sincere in becoming JW, you can pretty much hang up reading these political sites as well as Cedar’s blog.
Wiki actually tells us more about this group than their website does:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campaign_Life_Coalition
I encourage you to read:
Non-academic
“Is It a Choice?” by Eric Marcus, p. 9-11.http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-pavlovitz/yes-homosexuality-absolutely-is-a-choice_b_7106800.html
Scholarlyhttp://www.livescience.com/about
http://www.livescience.com/50058-being-gay-not-a-choice.html
http://www.livescience.com/37139-facts-about-gay-conversion-therapy.html
http://www.livescience.com/13409-myths-gay-people-debunked-sexual-orientation.html
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John says:
May 9, 2016 at 7:33 am
I fear that you may be laboring under a misapprehension.
Whist I fully understand the desire to prove a genetic disposition for homosexuality, it would ultimately have no bearing whatsoever on the Biblical injunction against homosexual behaviour.
Mr Cedars stated that “Straight people are born straight, and gay people are born gay”. This was simply an unsubstantiated assertion, which is not supported by current findings.
Whilst I may have referenced an article by a pro-life site, this aspect does not negate the validity of their information. Your dismissive reaction was a clear instance of the genetic fallacy i.e. rejecting by source not merit.
You have recommended articles by livescience.com, a site which
is clearly antagonistic towards the Christian faith. Does this mean that I should be dismissive of their output?
Since you are happy to resort to such tactics, here are some recent headlines from another of your sources, The Huffington Post:-
Jan 28: “Oops Amanda Seyfried Slips Off Her Undies”
——— ” Did Jennifer Lawrence’s Dress Rip at SAG Awards?”
Jan 31: “Chloe Kardasian- My Vagina Smells Like Roses”
Feb 1: “Jennifer Lawrence Describes her Breasts?”
Feb 3: “‘Girls’ Star’s Dress Debuts Boob Windows”
Feb 3: “Fmr Miss France Flashes her Headlights” (breasts)
I would also direct you to this site http://shameproject.com/profile/arianna-huffington/ detailing the dubious activities of the woman behind The Huffington Post, including her involvement with a New Age cult.
The reason why I cited the mentioned lifesite.com article was simply to highlight the Yale and Columbia study on identical twins; a study which led the researchers to conclude that genetics was not the primary factor in shaping sexual preferences.
Whilst there may be certain indications for differing influences, we do not yet have a full understanding of the roles of genetics and environment in the causation of homosexuality, and it is simply silly to suggest otherwise. There is certainly no definitive case either way.
Even if it were true that “gay people are born gay” this would in no way alter the sinful nature of homosexual activity. It’s not how you got the inclination, but what you do with it that counts.
Finally, your providing a dictionary definition of homophobic does nothing to counter my assessment of the word. It is simply an appeal to authority.
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wizzstick says:
May 7, 2016 at 11:25 pm
The subject of what creates homosexuality is still an area of research without a definitive answer.
There might not gay gene per se, but that doesn’t mean that people choose to be gay. An easy way of debunking that idea is that homosexuality is observable in animals, who can not make a conscious choice as humans can.
The website you linked to is a pro-Christian website. From it’s ‘About’ section:
3. LifeSiteNews.com’s writers and its founders, have come to understand that respect for life and family are endangered by an international conflict. That conflict is between radically opposed views of the worth and dignity of every human life and of family life and community. It has been caused by secularists attempting to eliminate Christian morality and natural law principles which are seen as the primary obstacles to implementing their new world order.
4. LifeSiteNews.com understands that abortion, euthanasia, cloning, homosexuality and all other moral, life and family issues are all interconnected in an international conflict affecting all nations, even at the most local levels. LifeSiteNews attempts to provide its readers with the big picture and the most useful and up-to-date information on this conflict.
So this site is hardly neutral in the subject. May I suggest you read the following links:
http://www.livescience.com/50058-being-gay-not-a-choice.html
http://www.livescience.com/13409-myths-gay-people-debunked-sexual-orientation.html
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Winston Smith says:
May 8, 2016 at 5:49 am
I have commented earlier that homosexuality may in many cases be a combination of nature and nurture (e.g. Ben Carson asks why some men enter prison straight and come out gay: I would argue that they already had a genetic predisposition toward being homosexual and now had the environment that allowed it to surface; case in point, a number of straight men enter prison straight and leave straight – they lack the genetic predisposition).
But this opinion does not endorse the concept that homosexuals can intentionally change their orientation or that their lifestyle is a choice. Asking someone gay to live as a straight person and condemning them if they cannot do so causes extreme psychological damage and often leads to mental heals issues and even suicide. How many of the commenters on this site have known or heard of a JW who was gay and was driven to commit suicide? I have.
WS
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Daniel Roberts says:
May 8, 2016 at 7:01 am
@John. Gay people do not condemn straight people to death by divine execution.
They do not demand that straight people change their sexual orientation.
Gay people do not insist that straight people are only that way because they choose to be.
Gay people do not care if you are straight, bent, curved, zigzagged, concave, convex.
They don’t believe that straight people are inferior or less entitled to live an uncomplicated and persecution free life.
Gay people just want what straight people have.
The right to be human without being judged as something less than.
Live and let live.
Why obsess over what consenting adults choose to do between themselves.
Being Gay is not wicked. It should not be treated as such.
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John says:
May 9, 2016 at 8:12 am
I will address each of your points separately:-
“Gay people do not condemn straight people to death by divine execution.”
The objection to homosexual behaviour is not based on personal opinion and divine judgment is enacted by God not man.
When Christians speak about homosexuality, they are simply stating God’s opinion as expressed in the Bible.
There is a duty on Christians to warn those practicing certain behaviours:
“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God-1 Corinthians 6:9-10 KJV.
As a single heterosexual male, I voluntarily submit to the injunction against sex outside marriage. Were I to have sexual relations outside of this arrangement, I would be ignoring God’s commands and would therefore be subject to divine judgment.
The principal is the same for those who are engaged in homosexual practices.
The only way to avoid divine judgment is through faith and repentance, and it is a Christian duty to make this known. You could say that this involves making a ‘judgment’ on someone’s conduct, but
the process originates with God’s word.
Christians certainly have no authority to condemn anyone to death.
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Victor says:
May 10, 2016 at 12:04 am
“As a single heterosexual male, I voluntarily submit to the injunction against sex outside marriage”… ah.. this is a half-truth, sooner or later you will be able to find someone, but for homosexuals what provides your loving God? ah yes, “wait for the magic new world”. pity that thousands of people died waiting…
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Daniel Roberts says:
May 10, 2016 at 4:31 am
@John – Ok. Firstly, you only addressed one of my points.
And you did so by immediately trying to avoid accountability by actually blaming God.
‘It’s not we who judge, it’s GOD. We simply have to do/feel as instructed’.
Well, this is actually not the case as the scripture you quoted was in fact written by a man.
Paul.
Paul wasn’t even quoting Jesus.
He was dictating new doctrine.
And before you jump to the ‘All scripture is inspired by God’ line of reasoning, let’s not forget that this assertion of divine inspiration was actually also written by……… Paul.
Paul in all likelihood had a personal dislike for ‘Effeminate’ men and therefore created his own ‘inspired’ rulebook.
I have to wonder though. What actually is the benchmark for ‘Too effeminate’?
How is it measured?
Are we talking about being a bit camp?
Over-accenting the “S’s” in our ssentencess?
Limp handshake? High pitched laugh?
Standing with hand on hip?
Too much blinking when talking?
One or all of these? Or combinations of?
It’s only fair to know what God considers to be too girly.
Or, is Paul on a little personal crusade?
I think it’s also vital that you address the following sins in Paul’s list:
“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God-1 Corinthians 6:9-10 KJV
The JW org regularly extorts money from it’s members. Even children being emotionally blackmailed to give their pocket money to the WT.
They are thieves. Having stolen time, lives, education, careers, and family from it’s members using incorrect teachings and timescales.
They are covetous. Greedy for wealth, property, status. The plush new headquarters and ‘Telly Award’ deception is testament to how low the WT will stoop to make itself look prestigious.
They are revilers. Speaking abusively about their ‘mentally diseased’ former members. Publically holding in contempt other religions, Catholicism particularly.
Drunkards? Again. Did Paul give us an indication of limit to alcohol consumption.
When is drunk… too drunk?
I’ve been tipsy on alcohol with many a Witness and had a jolly good time.
Are all Witnesses therefore as unentitled to God’s Kingdom as a Homosexual?
The JW’s interpret the bible to their own ends – Read the new world translation’s rendering of the above scripture for confirmation of that –
Picking and choosing which sins they decide most deserve the focal point, all the while utterly ignoring their own sinfulness according to the same texts.
Also – If ALL scripture is inspired by God… Then why have WT decided to remove John Chapter 8 verses 1 – 11 from their bible?
Also, the scripture above doesn’t say anything about ‘slightly butch’ women.
How deep are women’s voices allowed to get?
Can they wear dungerees?
I guess Paul, like a lot of Homophobic men, doesn’t have a problem with a little lesbianism.
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dee2 says:
May 10, 2016 at 7:59 am
@John,
“It’s not how you got the inclination, but what you do with it that counts.”
“The only way to avoid divine judgment is through faith and repentance………”
What about persons who have tried conversion therapy and faith and repentance but who have indicated that these things did not get rid of their homosexual inclination?
I wonder if God will still pour out his divine judgment on these persons despite their trying to overcome their inclination but nothing worked?
Admittedly, the jury is still out on whether there is a genetic disposition for homosexuality – as I understand it, no “gay gene” has been identified to date.
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John says:
May 12, 2016 at 4:49 am
[Evangelical comment removed per our religious neutrality policy – please refer to our posting guidelines before commenting again.]
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Twmack says:
May 8, 2016 at 6:29 am
John, You say,
Is it fair to denigrate someone’s character on the basis of little or no evidence? I would contend that the homophobic label is little more than a smear tactic, designed to deny any rational debate. It is irrational contempt disguised as fake moral outrage./
The many comments on the subject including your own input, clearly
demonstrate that there is no stifling of debate on this site.
Views will always be polarised on this, and many other subjects.
Authorities and studies can always be found and cited to support
a particular claim. One has got to resolve in his own mind which
information carries the most weight.
Thank goodness for freedom of thought and speech? Yours
as well as mine.
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Vinitha says:
May 8, 2016 at 11:34 pm
Watchtower indoctrination. When will this end? All individuals and children must have the freedom to exercise their human rights and express themselves. Watchtower STOP polluting young minds with your ideologies.
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dee2 says:
May 9, 2016 at 6:53 pm
@John,
“It’s not how you got the inclination, but what you do with it that counts.”
“The only way to avoid divine judgment is through faith and repentance………”
What about persons who have tried conversion therapy and faith and repentance but who have indicated that these things did not get rid of their homosexual inclination?
I wonder if God will still pour out his divine judgment on these persons despite their trying but nothing worked?
Admittedly, the jury is still out on whether there is a genetic disposition for homosexuality as based on my understanding no “gay” gene has been identified to date.
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Abby says:
May 10, 2016 at 3:25 am
After pioneering for over a decade, I wondered where the GB got the 70 hours requirement.
Did Jesus or any of the apostles ever count time? This modern day slavery is heart breaking. We have been taught in the watchtower that when we revenge, we are being presumptuous.(I.e doing Jehovah’s work) is DF not an act of presumptuousness? After watching Geoffery, I told mysef:This is indeed a renaissance period for all JW’s. Reading critically through the comments I did a lot of research,wow. 1914, Jephthah etc. My book of bible stories, Specifically Story 53 says that Jephthah’s daughter was not offered as aburnt offering. SMH.
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James Broughton says:
May 10, 2016 at 6:44 am
Lloyd, thank you so much for that article. I am pleased you reminded us of the Ugandan situation. In a recent ‘Watchtower’ there was an article on ‘Honesty’, which I believe should include intellectual honesty, something the Witnesses sometimes find difficult. Whether one agrees with homosexual practice or not, there ought to be no place in the Church for homophobic behaviour.
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Tara says:
May 10, 2016 at 7:02 am
Just my tuppence worth. I’ve said before, I’m just you’re basic Penny not an Amy (reference to Big Bang Theory, just in case you wondered). If God created us in his image etc… Why did he add a ‘faulty’ gene? Oh I know the Adam and Eve story etc etc but we are not talking about an illness here, we are talking about something in the make up of mankind that makes us who we are.
When I asked an ‘anointed one’ how he knew he was such, he showed me the scripture about Gods sons knowing who they are – can’t remember how it went… he also asked me how I knew I was female – said that’s how he knew he was anointed. So using the same logic can’t gay people say they know who they are?
Now not so long ago didn’t the GB through the WT say most of those claiming to be of the anointed were sick? So now they are also saying those who don’t match up to …. oh wait, themselves, are also ‘sick’.
lots of double standards going on.
I would sooner be with a group of gays who have love among themselves than with a group of people who imagine themselves as perfect individuals, set to be whisked away to the heavens, who look down on individuals who have a ‘faulty gene’ that god gave them in the first place!
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Tara says:
May 10, 2016 at 7:04 am
BTW local info suggests many at the hall are refusing to let their kids watch the video.
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Doc Obvious says:
May 10, 2016 at 11:25 am
I always love when grown ups urge kids to do their dirty work and then hide behind their legal department when doing so. I really wish the Watchtower themselves would go to the United States Supreme Court and tell them that their Jehovah and he does not want same sex marriage. These men in the United States are spiritual wimps. Be a man, Anthony Morris III, and do your own dirty work. Also, please stop taking food out of our kids mouths. It looks bad.
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Twmack says:
May 10, 2016 at 12:32 pm
I think a distinction has to be made between heterosexuals
who for some reason engage in homosexual acts, and those
in whom the preference is hard wired, and who remain that way
throughout their life.
The word sodomy derived from the Bible, brings up thoughts of
debauched orgies where lust takes over and anything and everything
takes place. ( That account I feel must influence many peoples
opinions of homosexuals. )
There’s also the men in prison who get drawn into those practices .
Then, there’s the genuine gay person.
Whose natural urges are toward the same sex only.
I know two elderly men, homosexual men, who have lived together
nearly all their adult life. They go to dances and dance with ladies,
but they always leave together. They are not and never have been
a threat to anyone.
But there is one young man in my daughters cong, I really feel
sorry for, He’s just getting involved in it all, he’s admitted his
preference, that he is gay. and in his own words, he is fighting it.
What are the prospects of his happiness, especially if he’s pushed
into a relationship with a young sister, Resulting in two blighted
lives.
When it comes to debating this issue, the bottom line is “Always”
It’s the inspired word of God. And if God hates homosexuality
then Christians should also hate it.
Well that’s another debate in itself. Much has been said on this
site alone about the authenticity and veracity of the Bible.
I’ll leave it there!
Reply
dee2 says:
May 10, 2016 at 1:18 pm
It has also been my observation that there are those in whom the homosexual preference is hard wired and there are those heterosexuals
who, for some reason engage in homosexual acts.
Reply
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← News Bulletin: Secret Watchtower documents once again demanded in new US court case.
The Friday Column: Leave no man behind →
Why Watchtower should be ashamed of its new homophobic child propaganda cartoon
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Posted on May 3, 2016
In the new cartoon, Sophia's mum teaches her how to be judgmental and bigoted
In the new cartoon, Sophia’s mum teaches her how to be judgmental and bigoted
It was in the summer 2012 that Jehovah’s Witnesses around the world were first introduced to Caleb and Sophia, the Governing Body’s new animated poster kids.
Their first cartoon adventures, which were distributed in DVDs at conventions and on the organization’s JW.org website, caused outrage even among many non-JWs. Watchtower’s blatant attempts to indoctrinate children using fear and paranoia created a wave of dismay that will have gone largely unnoticed by most ordinary JWs.
Since they first burst on to our screens, Caleb and Sophia have been taught by their troubled parents that Jehovah is pedantic enough to hate certain kinds of plastic action figures, that he wants kids to give their ice cream money to Watchtower, and that failing to pay sufficient attention at kingdom hall meetings can carry the death penalty.
But Watchtower apparently isn’t done with stripping JW kids of all innocence and individuality. Now the Governing Body wants them to challenge any classmates with gay or lesbian parents, and remind them that if mommy and mommy (or daddy and daddy) don’t change their ways they will lose their tickets to paradise.
It’s hard to know where to start in verbalizing one’s revulsion at the proud ignorance and homophobia on open display in this CGI monstrosity, but I will do my best.
Firstly, Sophia’s bewilderingly-orange mother manipulates her daughter with a metaphor that entirely misrepresents both homosexuality and Watchtower’s views regarding it. Sophia is asked to picture a man traveling with a bag, the contents of which trigger the airport security systems because he is carrying a prohibited item.
Homosexuality is explained as being the forbidden item the man must surrender before being allowed to travel on to his desired destination: paradise earth.
The video presents a misleading metaphor that misrepresents both homosexuality and Watchtower's teachings about what awaits homosexuals
The video presents a misleading metaphor that misrepresents both homosexuality and Watchtower’s teachings about what awaits homosexuals
Anybody remotely in tune with reality understands that homosexuality is not a “choice,” as so often portrayed by Christian fundamentalists. Straight people are born straight, and gay people are born gay. Just as it would be outrageous to ask a straight person to start being gay, it is impossible to expect a gay person to live a lie and stop being who they are. And yet this is what fanatics like Watchtower demand of them.
Secondly, the metaphor implies that if the traveler chooses against surrendering the forbidden item, the worst that will happen is that his ticket will be cancelled and he will be forced to browse the duty free before hailing a cab and making his way back to the hotel. But that is not how it works according to Jehovah’s Witness teachings.
If the metaphor were accurately and fully followed through, we would see the traveller being bundled away by security and thrown into a 1940s cattle cart, along with all others deemed undesirable by the Governing Body, before being dispatched to the great extermination camp of Armageddon.
This is not a case of “follow us, or don’t fly,” this is a case of “follow us, or die.”
But this doomsday aspect of Jehovah’s Witness theology is so repugnant to most ordinary people that Watchtower must do its best to obfuscate it wherever possible.
Even most JWs you may encounter on the street, if pressed on the matter, will deny that literally billions of people, including children, are in line for mass slaughter if their hopes and expectations come to fruition. Their continued state of subservience to their religion depends on them not thinking things through to their fullest, most grisly conclusion.
All that deception and mischaracterization aside, arguably the most repugnant and disturbing aspect of this vile cartoon is that it sets out to recruit JW children to impose the organization’s homophobic bigotry on any classmates who happen to have gay or lesbian parents.
When I was growing up as a JW I recall being indoctrinated into believing that homosexuality was to be condemned. But I don’t remember once being told to actively seek out homosexuals, or children of homosexuals, to badger them with my beliefs. All that, apparently, has now changed. Watchtower has thrown its hat in with all the other sickly Christian evangelicals whose crusade is to stamp out homosexuality wherever it surfaces.
If you want to see what the end game is of preaching hate in this way, you need only watch the documentary “God Loves Uganda,” which is currently running on Netflix. It shows how U.S. evangelicals have taken a loathsome message that has zero credibility in their homeland, and cynically flooded Uganda with it – a country whose populace have limited access to education and are therefore easy pickings for those who spew ignorance and bigotry.
And before I am accused of trying to persuade people towards atheism by making this film recommendation, I should point out that two heroes of the film are Reverend Kaoma and Bishop Senyonjo. By the end of the film, I wanted to reach into my screen and hug them both.
Despite being Christians they could plainly see the real danger posed by evangelical homophobic fanaticism, and were doing their best in the face of unspeakable brutality to urge love, respect and tolerance.
Now it seems Watchtower, having already embraced televangelism, are also now quite happy to count themselves among the small-minded homophobic hate-mongers who stain our society. And rather than lead the hateful charge themselves, the likes of Tony Morris and his Governing Body cronies are content to hide behind a newly-formed army of school-age foot-soldiers who will take the heat for them.
new-cedars-signature3
Further reading…
◾Metro article
◾Independent article
◾Inquisitr article
◾The Friendly Atheist article
◾Rawstory article
◾Complex article
◾Wetpaint article
◾Pink News article
◾Wonkette article
◾Gaystarnews article
◾SDGLN.com article
◾Same Same article
◾Newnownext article
◾The Daily Dot article
◾The Stranger article
◾The Gaily Grind article
◾Dangerous Minds article
◾TheNewCivilRightsMovement.com article
◾Progressive Secular Humanist article
◾JoeMyGod.com article
◾Watchtower’s New “Toy Story” – What Parents Need to Know
◾Sparlock a year later: Non-JWs in uproar on YouTube
◾Cough up kids! Watchtower needs your ice cream money
◾“Pay attention or die” – A disturbing glimpse of JW child indoctrination at work
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← News Bulletin: Secret Watchtower documents once again demanded in new US court case.
The Friday Column: Leave no man behind →
361 Responses to Why Watchtower should be ashamed of its new homophobic child propaganda cartoon
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PeterB says:
May 10, 2016 at 12:32 pm
The bible clearly states that God (if there is one) does not approve of men engaging in sexual activity with other men, and same for women with women. It’s unfortunate that such in individuals ( individuals that agree with what the bible says on the matter of homosexuality ) must be torn with a troubled conscience while trying to serve God. But, thats the way the ball bounced. Just because you are born that way IN THIS WORLD, does not make it okay as a sexual act or as a life style. Its as if this is an alternate reality like in Back to the Future. This reality we know of…this reality we feel and breath everyday was never supposed to happen. Also God did not make Satan, or nudge Satan to ultimately feel the way he did thus causing him to make all the stupid decisions that he did. That was Satan’s own damn fault. There did’t have to be an “evil” for there to be a “good”… It all just went down the way it went down. Now we are all here, and if you are gay… too bad.
Reply
dee2 says:
May 10, 2016 at 1:24 pm
PeterB:
– “Its as if this is an alternate reality like in Back to the Future.”
How do you know that this is an alternate reality? What reason is there to believe that that this is an alternate reality?
– “This reality we know of…this reality we feel and breath everyday was never supposed to happen.”
How do you know that this reality was never supposed to happen? What reason is there to believe that this reality was never supposed to happen?
– “Also God did not make Satan, or nudge Satan to ultimately feel the way he did thus causing him to make all the stupid decisions that he did.”
What stupid decisions did Satan make?
– “There did’t have to be an “evil” for there to be a “good” “.
How do you know that?
– “Now we are all here, and if you are gay… too bad.”
Why is it “too bad” if you are gay?
Reply
Winston Smith says:
May 11, 2016 at 3:29 am
And in this “alternate reality” some people get cancer – “too bad, that’s the way the ball bounces”
And some children get molested by JW pedofiles – “too bad that’s the way the ball the ball bounces”
It seems like a pretty self centered outlook. It seems to indicate “it doesn’t affect me, so too bad for them. Let God fix it” Unrealistic outlook in my opinion.
WS
Reply
PeterB says:
May 11, 2016 at 7:08 am
@dee2
(My comeback comment has been waiting moderation since yesterday. So here it is without curse words.)
How do you know that this is an alternate reality? What reason is there to believe that that this is an alternate reality? 1.) If you know the answers then why do you ask? You know exactly how a person studying with JWs will answer. I know from scriptures. I have chosen to view my study of the scriptures as fact. I studied with 7 denominations before I agreed to study with JWs. I have plenty of comments on this site already with scriptures that support my view. If you want to interpret scriptures another way then that’s your thing. 2) Repeat
What stupid decisions did Satan make?
In short, he chose to “fight the power” like a big whiny brat because he couldn’t see himself worshiping God and slaving for him with a fake smile on his face for the rest of his never ending life in heaven. So he decided to switch things up a bit. Maybe he got his fragile feelings/ego all butt-hurt over some family jealousy in heaven.
Why is it “too bad” if you are gay?
If you are gay, maybe God will have mercy on you whenever he brings this sh!t hole world to an end. Maybe he’ll even show mercy to almost all of you that have been devastated by policies that the JW Organization has in place. But it’s too bad in the way that the bible says what it says about homosexuals and that’s that. So there. The Bible is the authority.
The Bible is freakin’ awesome. I’ve been obsessed with it since I was a late teen. I’ve also been obsessed with uncovering truths about the world that we live in. And I never needed JWs to let me know something like The United Nations will make an attempt to bring an end to the freedom of religion. I knew that 20 years ago! The USA has plans to give all power to the UN for a big a** take over that will leave you in shock and awe. I already knew from my studies that the prophecies in Daniel were amazingly accurate. JWs just agreed with my view. The Bible is REAL. I don’t even read the NWT of the Bible. But the Bible I read says that God disapproves of a gay lifestyle. So, again for those of you that support the lifestyle…you’re just taking one hell of a chance with God. I know a few non-JWs growing up that made a decision not to act on their desires because they felt it was wrong. Now that is a sacrifice!!! Everyone is just obsessed with making sure that they themselves are HAPPY in this selfish world! So simple.
Reply
Winston Smith says:
May 11, 2016 at 11:26 am
@PeterB
The fact that you need to have a “comeback” comment reveals much about your motives. The majority of folks on this site are not looking to win arguments, but rather they are looking to gain perspective on their involvement what, after thorough and honest examination, has proven to be a damaging high control group or cult.
Your comments reveal a lack of love for your fellow humans who may happen to have been born gay or lesbian (see John 3:16 and 13:35). You have called some of us dumb (1 Pet 2:23) and you seem to be unable to control the language you use (Eph 4:29).
So what is it you are learning from the JWs about the Bible? It is certainly none of the above references. If you want to learn to be condescending, judgemental, and egomaniacal, then the JW religion (along with many other fundamentalist Christian groups) may be the place for you. But you are failing to learn the love of the Christ that the Bible teaches.
Good luck with your “studies.”
WS
Reply
Danny says:
May 13, 2016 at 8:22 am
Show me one single bible scripture, where sexual relationship woman with woman are condemned by god. When the bible is gods word, you have to prove your statement.
Reply
Winston Smith says:
May 13, 2016 at 12:54 pm
Danny,
The only one that comes to mind is:
Romans 1:26 This is why God delivered them over to degrading passions. For even their females exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones.
Or as according to the Living Bible:
Romans 1:26 That is why God let go of them and let them do all these evil things, so that even their women turned against God’s natural plan for them and indulged in sex sin with each other.
I am not advocating intolerance of homosexuals by pointing this out, but simply attempting to answer your question.
WS
Reply
PeterB says:
May 10, 2016 at 2:36 pm
How do you know that this is an alternate reality? What reason is there to believe that that this is an alternate reality? 1) If you know the answers then why do you ask? You know exactly how I will answer. I know from scriptures. I have chosen to view my study of the scriptures as fact. I studied with 7 denominations before I agreed to study with JWs. I have plenty of comments on this site already with scriptures that support my view. If you want to interpret scriptures another way then that’s your thing. 2) Repeat
What stupid decisions did Satan make?
In short, he chose to “fight the power” like a big whiny brat because he couldn’t see himself worshiping God and slaving for him with a fake smile on his face for the rest of his never ending life in heaven. So he decided to switch things up a bit. Maybe he got his fragile feelings/ego all butt-hurt over some family jealousy in heaven.
Why is it “too bad” if you are gay?
If you are gay, maybe God will have mercy on you whenever he brings this shit hole world to an end. Maybe he’ll even show mercy to almost all of you that have been devastated by policies that the JW Organization has in place. But it’s too bad in the way that the bible says what it says about homosexuals and that’s that. So there. The Bible is the authority.
The Bible is freakin’ awesome. I’ve been obsessed with it since I was a late teen. I’ve also been obsessed with uncovering truths about the world that we live in. And I never needed JWs to let me know something like The United Nations will make an attempt to bring an end to the freedom of religion. I knew that 20 years ago! The USA has plans to give all power to the UN for a big ass take over that will leave you in shock and awe. I already knew from my studies that the prophecies in Daniel were amazingly accurate. JWs just agreed with my view. The Bible is REAL. I don’t even read the NWT of the Bible. But the Bible I read says that God disapproves of a gay lifestyle. So, again for those of you that support the lifestyle…you’re just taking one hell of a chance with God. I know a few non-JWs growing up that made a decision not to act on their desires because they felt it was wrong. Now that is a sacrifice!!! Everyone is just obsessed with making sure that they themselves are HAPPY in this selfish world! So simple.
Reply
Daniel Roberts says:
May 11, 2016 at 3:36 am
Just another thought. But if sexuality is such a massive issue for God – Man being male, woman being female; Why will the annointed females of the 144000 have their gender reassigned to male, upon entering heaven to rule as kings and priests?
We know that God, Jesus, Angels etc are all male don’t we…. And we know how they all feel about women. (Even down to finding them sexually attractive according to the Genesis account)
So… God is going to turn all the girls into guys?
Talk about nuts.
(Albeit Angelic ones)
Reply
PeterB says:
May 11, 2016 at 7:02 am
You can’t say the angels are male. That was so dumb of you to say. The Bible refers to God & angels as “he” just so us stupid humans can get the point of certain things.
Reply
Daniel Roberts says:
May 11, 2016 at 8:07 am
Yeaaaah. .. how dumb of me.
Pretty sure God made man in HIS image. Pretty sure the angels came down and had sex with the women in the pre-flood story.
Pretty certain God is a Patriarchal deity. I.e. Our heavenly Father.
You can’t dispute this PeterB.
Reply
Daniel Roberts says:
May 11, 2016 at 8:29 am
Further to above comment PeterB.
You are presenting yourself as a little manic.
This might be due to frustration in having your beliefs challenged.
Whatever the case, I don’t wish to upset you further so I shall decline further comment on this thread.
Go carefully with the JW’S. I sincerely hope they help you find happiness.
P n L.
Reply
Caroline says:
May 11, 2016 at 8:54 am
@Peter, I also thought that the Bible was awesome but it isn’t. Go to Wikipedia and look up the Jahwist or Yahwist source, the Deuteronomist source, the Priestly source, the Masoretic text, the Latin Vulgate Bible and the Septuagint and then come back here and say how awesome the Bible is.
I didn’t know anything about the Bible while I was in the “truth” and neither do any of the other Jehovah’s Witnesses know even the least little thing when it comes to how the Bible came to be or the background of the scriptures. If you did even the littlest bit of research on the background of the Bible and how we got it, you would think differently, believe me.
Do that first and then come back okay? Also, while you are at it, look up the gods that were being worshiped in ancient Canaan (where Abraham and his family were before going into Egypt) and see the similarities between the Canaanite Gods and the God of the Bible.
Another thing to do is pay attention to what the Israelites were doing in the worship of Jehovah, ie. burning their kids to Jehovah/Baal. Baal is just another word for God (master, owner Insight #1) page 228.
In Acts 7:43, Stephen said the Hebrews were worshiping Molech during the 40 year wilderness trek and Molech worship was the burning of their firstborn to him. That is the God the Israelites worshiped when they got the law from Jehovah/Baal.
It’s all in there in the Bible if you pay attention to what it actually says.
Reply
Twmack says:
May 11, 2016 at 9:23 am
@PeterB. “The Bible is “Freakin'” awesome ”
Nice comment Peter, Freakin is merely a substitute for that
other Anglo Saxon word you seem so fond of.
Then your reply to Dee2 has had to be cleaned up before
it was acceptable for publication. You pride yourself on
using scriptures to support your point.
So I suggest your comments could be improved by checking
out what the Bible says about acceptable language. I won’t
Insult a man of your advanced knowledge by citing texts for
you to look up. ( studied with 7 religions already very impressive)
Only another estimated 31,993 Christian religions to go Peter
Good luck in your search,
I’m with Daniel Roberts now, no more replies from me.
Reply
PeterB says:
May 11, 2016 at 2:15 pm
@Caroline
I read everything Wikipedia had to offer on everything you gave me to look up. I’m not impressed. If you read it all again you might not be impressed either.
Reply
Big B says:
May 11, 2016 at 6:25 pm
Personally, I believe nothing anyone writes or shows PeterB will be much use to a hardcore “Jehovah’s Witness apologist”.
Like a teenager it might be better to let him find out for himself and after he is kicked to the curb by his new found “friends” maybe he will be more inclined to listen.
However, as of now he is not only non-receptive to given proofs but downright arrogant and I will not feed his egomania anymore. Ta Ta TROLL!
Reply
Caroline says:
May 12, 2016 at 2:07 am
@Big B, I can see you are right about PeterB. He doesn’t know anything about the Bible or the background of the Watchtower Society and as long as he is one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, he never will.
People believe what they want to believe and when it comes to facts, they refuse to look at them for fear of finding out they were wrong.
Reply
dee2 says:
May 12, 2016 at 7:28 am
@PeterB:
“I never needed JWs to let me know something like The United Nations will make an attempt to bring an end to the freedom of religion. I knew that 20 years ago!”
– Where in the Bible is this stated?
– What were the views/teachings regarding this of the 7 denominations with whom you studied?
“The USA has plans to give all power to the UN for a big a** take over that will leave you in shock and awe.”
– Where in the Bible is this stated?
– What were the views/teachings regarding this of the 7 denominations with whom you studied?
Reply
dee2 says:
May 12, 2016 at 7:30 am
@PeterB:
“I already knew from my studies that the prophecies in Daniel were amazingly accurate. JWs just agreed with my view.”
Is the book of Daniel amazingly accurate?
– The author of Daniel accurately refers to two campaigns which Antiochus Epiphanes (Antiochus IV), the Seleucid king of Syria, led against Egypt, but then speaks of a third, after which Antiochus was predicted to die on the coast of Palestine (Daniel 11:40-45). This did not happen. Whereas the writer had been accurate up to 165 BCE, from that point on he revealed ignorance of the movements of Antiochus Epiphanes, so betraying the fact that he was writing prophecy and not history.
The prediction concerning Antiochus’s final battle and place of death “between the sea and the holy mountain” (Daniel 11:45) was inaccurate, and so we know that this prophecy was completed before the news of his death reached Jerusalem. Antiochus died in Persia, in late 164 BCE.
Prior to Daniel 11:40, the author(s) has been recording past events under the Babylonian, Median, Persian and Greek empires. In Daniel 11:40-45, he really attempts to predict the future. He prophesizes that a king of the south (of the Ptolemaic dynasty) will attack the Greeks in Judea, under Antiochus. The Greeks will win, will lay spoil to all of northeast Africa, and return to Judea where Antiochus will die. The end of history will then occur. The author(s) appeared to be a poor psychic because none of these events actually happened. Antiochus did die in 164 BCE, but it was in Persia. Thus, the book was apparently completed before 164 BCE.
– Daniel 1:1-2 says that Nebuchadnezzar attacked Jerusalem and took away exiles and spoils in Jehoiakim’s third year. However, there is no record elsewhere of such an event, in the Bible or the Babylonian Chronicle both of which indicate that Jerusalem fell to Nebuchadnezzar for the first time in 597 BCE.
– According to Daniel 2:28, God give a revelation concerning “what will happen at the end of days” to gentile (thus pagan) rulers. If the effect of the various events was so great on the kings, why is there no evidence outside the Bible of this effect?
– There is no historical merit to the stories of Babylonian and Persian kings acknowledging or adopting the God of the Jews who lived in exile among them.
– In the case of “Darius the Mede,” whose laws could not be altered, why wasn’t his decree, according to Daniel 6:26,carried out by succeeding kings?
– There is no place in history for “Darius the Mede”:
The city of Babylon was taken over by the Persians in 539, and this leads to another problem in the book of Daniel, which says the city fell to “Darius the Mede.” Chapters 6 and 9 are dated in his reign, but no such figure has been found in any of the texts from the ancient Near East, and indeed there is no place in history for the reign of such a person. Nabonidus was succeeded immediately by Cyrus the Persian, who is the last king to be named in Daniel (1:21 and 10:1).
– Other claims by the book of Daniel which are at odds with historical fact:
* It depicts the Babylonians, Medes, Persians, and Greeks as four consecutive empires (chapter 2); however, some of those states existed concurrently. In reality, the Median and Babylonian kingdoms coexisted until the Medians were conquered about 550 BCE and the Babylonians were conquered in 539, both by the Persians.
* It talks about Nebuchadnezzar being exiled from his kingdom (chapter 4); this probably reflects events involving the last king of Babylon, Nabonidus, who took a “leave of absence” from being king and lived in an oasis on the Arabian peninsula.
* It depicts Belshazzar as the last king of Babylon (chapter 5); this is an error.Belshazzar was not the son of Nebuchadnezzar and was never called king in the Babylonian records, but served only as a sort of prince regent for a time. He was defeated by Cyrus, not by Darius.
* Daniel 5:31 records how “Darius the Mede” conquered Babylon and killed king Belshazzar. This belief probably arose out of many predictions in Isaiah and Jeremiah that Babylon would fall to the Medes. In reality, the Median and Babylonian kingdoms coexisted until the Medians were conquered about 550 BCE and the Babylonians were conquered in 539, both by the Persians. Darius was not a Median king. Apparently the later Persian king “Darius the Great” was confused by the author(s) with Astyages, the last Median king.
* Daniel 1:4 refers to the “Chaldeans” as a priestly class in Babylon. This term did not attain this meaning until much later than the 6th century.
Daniel’s purported setting during the Babylonian exile, according to chapter 4, is not plausible. Someone living in the Babylonian exile would not have made these kinds of mistakes. The book must be from a later era. In fact, it employs Greek loan words – e.g., sumfoniah or “bagpipes,” related to the English word “symphony,” appears in Daniel 3:5, which establishes that someone wrote Daniel during the Greek period – the Greek occupation of the area did not occur until the 4th century BCE.
One of the musical instruments mentioned in Daniel 3:5 and in subsequent passages did not exist until it was developed in 2nd century BCE Greece.
Daniel 11:31 (and elsewhere) refers to “the abominable thing that causes desolation.” This appears to refer to the erection of a statue of Zeus in the Jerusalem temple in 167 BCE, and would indicate that the book was written later than that date.
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dee2 says:
May 12, 2016 at 7:35 am
@PeterB cont’d:
– The book of Daniel tells of Daniel’s adventures under two Babylonian kings Nebuchadnezzar and Belshazzar, a Median king Darius who happens to be unknown to history, a Persian king Cyrus – that’s a whole lot of years! You have the chronology of more than a century being telescoped here.
– Nothing is known historically of a Daniel in Babylon:
The first six chapters are stories about Daniel, speaking of him in the third person, and so are anonymous as to authorship. Daniel speaks in the first person in chapters 7-12, and since he dates his visions in the reigns of Belshazzar and Cyrus, the traditional view has been that this sixth-century character was responsible for the whole book. However, nothing is known historically of a Daniel in Babylon. There may well have been a Daniel in exile around whom these legends grew up, although we know nothing more about him.
About 180 BCE, Jeshua ben Sira listed the heroes of the Jewish faith, including “Enoch, Noah and Abraham through to Nehemiah;” Daniel is not mentioned – presumably because Jeshua is unaware of him. This would indicate that the book of Daniel was written after that time.
– Chapter 12 discusses the dead being resurrected, judged, and taken to either heaven and hell. At the time of Daniel, the Jews believed that all persons went to Sheol after death. The concept of heaven and hell was introduced centuries later by the Greeks. It did not appear in Israel until the time of the Maccabean revolt.
– In the final chapter of Daniel, the author describes the “end of history” – a resurrection of the dead, judgment and transfer the resurrected dead to heaven or hell. According to Daniel 12:12, these events would happen during approximately three years (1335 days) following the “abomination of desolation” (the erection of a statue of Zeus in the Jewish temple in 167 BCE). Some Bible scholars have interpreted this period of time as occupying many millennia. But this is clearly not a valid interpretation, because Daniel 12:12 refers to people who “wait and live to see the completion of the interval.”
– Daniel employed creative ingenuity in order to make Jeremiah’s prophecy work. Jeremiah prophesied early in the sixth century, he promised seventy years of Babylonian world domination beginning in 605, followed by punishment of the Babylonians and a restoration of Israel. However, an author, such as the writer of Daniel who was writing between 167 and 164BCE would have had good reason to study that passage carefully. For Jeremiah had promised an ultimate, permanent restoration of Israel after seventy years; yet people were now—under Antiochus IV—unable to worship in Jerusalem, and under pain of death for observing basic Jewish practices.
Thus, either Jeremiah’s prophecy was false, or else what he said must have a hidden meaning—one that only close study could reveal. The author of Daniel chose the latter approach, revealing this esoteric meaning: (Daniel 9:21-22, 24). The author here reinterprets the prophecy of Jeremiah as if the wordshiv’im in the phrase “seventy years” were tacitly repeated and revocalized:shavu’im shiv’im, “seventy weeks” of years, namely 70 x 7 = 490 years. Thus, the author grants this central prophecy of Jeremiah a 420-year extension! This reading enables Jeremiah’s oracle to remain a true prophecy, and Jeremiah a prophet of truth. Certainly, the reading in Daniel is not what Jeremiah meant since Israel’s long desolation did not end after the 420-year extension – Jeremiah’s prophecy was false and so was Daniel’s.
– The earth is described as flat in Daniel 4:11.
– The king tried to think of a way to avoid executing Daniel, but was unsuccessful. (He probably didn’t think too hard, because there was a simple solution to the problem. If the lions were over-fed, they would have lost interest in munching on Daniel). Daniel was thrown in to the pit, but survived. He credited an angel with shutting the lions’ mouths.
The book of Daniel is mainly a history of past events, not a prophecy of the future.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/daniel1.htm
https://ad1914.com/2015/10/27/the-babylonian-exile-shaped-the-future-of-prophetic-speculation-doug-mason/
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dee2 says:
May 12, 2016 at 7:36 am
@PeterB cont’d:
Given the errors/historical inaccuracies in the book of Daniel, it is hazardous to claim that the book directly refers to events of one’s own day. The Watchtower’s (WT) failed predictions based on the book of Daniel certainly proves this:
The WT concluded that the “king of the south” in Daniel 11 is fulfilled in Britain and America, and “the king of the north” in the Soviet Union. (Your Will Be Done On Earth 1958, pp 263 & 278)
In their Your Will Be Done book, the WT stated:
– …the Soviet Union, the Communist power, that since it seized power in Russia in 1917, has held world domination as its aim to this day (i.e. up to 1958 at the time of the book’s publication).
(p. 278)
– Down to the ‘time of the end’ at Armageddon there will be competitive coexistence between the ‘two kings’. (p. 297)
– Jehovah’s angel foretold further aggressions by the Communist king of the north before his end at Armageddon. (p. 300)
– The Soviet Union will gain control of most of the world and its wealth and resources including oil.
(pp 297, 303)
– The Soviet Union will then be terrified by reports issued by the WT and initiate an attack against JWs. (pp 304-305)
– Finally the Soviet Union and America will join forces to attack the JWs which leads to the annihilation of both America and the Soviet Union. (pp 306-307)
– Billions of people on earth who are not JWs will at that time be destroyed. (p. 347)
Despite predictions that the Soviet Union will competitively exist until Armageddon, and will fall at that time after aggressions against the rest of the world, the Soviet Union is now defunct and has fragmented into a Commonwealth of Independent States and former Soviet republics.
In a previous WT book called The New World (1942) “The king of the north” was quite different and “included the Central Powers, or imperial Germany, Roman-Catholic Austria-Hungary, Roman Catholic Italy and Vatican…Japan…” (p. 324)
An even earlier WT book called Thy Kingdom Come (1891) applied the latter part of Daniel chapter 11 to the Napoleonic period in 1799.
http://ed5015.tripod.com/JwKingOfTheNorth25.html
The WT’s multiple failed predictions based on the book of Daniel have however served to prove that the prophecy in Daniel 11 is not a valid prophecy since, for prophecy to be valid, it must be clear and unambiguous. It must not allow for a multitude of possible events.
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dee2 says:
May 12, 2016 at 7:38 am
@PeterB:
“So he(Satan) decided to switch things up a bit.”
Was it Satan who decided to switch things up a bit or God?
According to the Bible Adam and Eve did not know right from wrong when they sinned, they did not know good from evil until AFTER they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It was only AFTER the two ate from the forbidden tree that they developed a moral sense yet in a huff God decided that he would let Satan rule in his stead for a while?
Was that just/merciful given Adam & Eve’s limitation (lacking moral sense, not able to distinguish right from wrong) and considering the fact that courts around the world show mercy to those who do not know right from wrong? A “Not Criminally Responsible” designation is a fundamental principle of many justice systems. Accused persons must have the capacity to understand that what they did was wrong – otherwise they cannot be found guilty of an offence; such persons are not fit subjects for retribution or punishment:
http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/vince-lis-request-for-more-freedom-okd-by-manitoba-review-board/ar-BBq1kDE?ocid=mailsignout
http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/five-year-old-boy-investigated-for-rape-in-manchester-is-one-of-70-children-under-10-to-be-accused-of-sex-attacks/ar-AAgJl0U?li=AAggNb9
Why didn’t God allow Adam & Eve to die in the very day that they ate the forbidden fruit just like he promised so that they wouldn’t pass on sin to their descendants?
According to the bible God destroyed all the wicked people during the flood of Noah’s day and left only the righteous. Couldn’t God have done similarly with Adam & Eve? Couldn’t he have put Adam & Eve to death and keep repeating the process until he found a human pair who would obey before allowing them to have children and sin to enter the world?
Couldn’t God have prevented evil from entering the world in the first place in the case of Adam and Eve and still leave free will in tact? Sin entered the world because God chose to put the tree of the knowledge of good and bad where Adam and Eve, who at the time had no concept of good and evil, could access it. Had God chosen to put the tree out of Adam’s and Eve’s reach, no fruit eaten and thus sin does not enter, while leaving free will intact. God could also have chosen not to make that tree at all too. After all, being all-knowing, God would have known the choice Adam and Eve were going to make especially given the fact that they were lacking in moral sense and did not know how to distinguish between right and wrong, good and evil.
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Searcher says:
May 12, 2016 at 10:25 am
Yes. Why didn’t God put a child-proof cap on the tree of knowledge if it was so bad for Adam and Eve to get into? That would have prevented the whole debacle called the world in the first place. Right? Good Question, but no real answer will ever come of it, because we aren’t God in the first place. Lot’s of wasted hours of theologians time over that one! It doesn’t really matter after all; we’re all here now for what it’s worth. The world is what it is. I just enjoy the good in the world, and manage the best I can with the bad situations to turn them into good. It makes for a much happier life than wringing my hands about something I have completely NO control over. It was almost comical. When I would say this to the elders at my ‘bible study’ it really frustrated them to no end. They just couldn’t addle me with doom, gloom, and fear when I finally made my mind up that I was going to be just fine without their oversight. That was the best feeling to know that no matter what they said or did, it really doesn’t matter. I could be free in my mind to believe what I want. That arena belongs to me and me alone. OK, I digress.
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dee2 says:
May 12, 2016 at 11:42 am
“The world is what it is.”
That’s exactly the point Searcher!
I find it rather absurd that Adam & Eve had a limitation – lacking in moral sense, unable to distinguish right from wrong – yet in a huff God decided that he would let Satan rule in his stead for a while. The explanations offered by the Bible and theologians are inadequate and certainly prove that the Bible is not a divinely inspired book but the ideas of men just like ourselves.
Indeed, “the world is what it is”, the world is just what we see around us, and that’s all that can be said.
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Searcher says:
May 13, 2016 at 9:43 am
Sorry, I meant to say that I agree with you before my diatribe.
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dee2 says:
May 12, 2016 at 9:10 am
The following comment is awaiting moderation:
@PeterB – PART 1:
“I already knew from my studies that the prophecies in Daniel were amazingly accurate. JWs just agreed with my view.”
Is the book of Daniel amazingly accurate?
– The author of Daniel accurately refers to two campaigns which Antiochus Epiphanes (Antiochus IV), the Seleucid king of Syria, led against Egypt, but then speaks of a third, after which Antiochus was predicted to die on the coast of Palestine (Daniel 11:40-45). This did not happen. Whereas the writer had been accurate up to 165 BCE, from that point on he revealed ignorance of the movements of Antiochus Epiphanes, so betraying the fact that he was writing prophecy and not history.
The prediction concerning Antiochus’s final battle and place of death “between the sea and the holy mountain” (Daniel 11:45) was inaccurate, and so we know that this prophecy was completed before the news of his death reached Jerusalem. Antiochus died in Persia, in late 164 BCE.
Prior to Daniel 11:40, the author(s) has been recording past events under the Babylonian, Median, Persian and Greek empires. In Daniel 11:40-45, he really attempts to predict the future. He prophesizes that a king of the south (of the Ptolemaic dynasty) will attack the Greeks in Judea, under Antiochus. The Greeks will win, will lay spoil to all of northeast Africa, and return to Judea where Antiochus will die. The end of history will then occur. The author(s) appeared to be a poor psychic because none of these events actually happened. Antiochus did die in 164 BCE, but it was in Persia. Thus, the book was apparently completed before 164 BCE.
– Daniel 1:1-2 says that Nebuchadnezzar attacked Jerusalem and took away exiles and spoils in Jehoiakim’s third year. However, there is no record elsewhere of such an event, in the Bible or the Babylonian Chronicle both of which indicate that Jerusalem fell to Nebuchadnezzar for the first time in 597 BCE.
– According to Daniel 2:28, God give a revelation concerning “what will happen at the end of days” to gentile (thus pagan) rulers. If the effect of the various events was so great on the kings, why is there no evidence outside the Bible of this effect?
– There is no historical merit to the stories of Babylonian and Persian kings acknowledging or adopting the God of the Jews who lived in exile among them.
– In the case of “Darius the Mede,” whose laws could not be altered, why wasn’t his decree, according to Daniel 6:26,carried out by succeeding kings?
– There is no place in history for “Darius the Mede”:
The city of Babylon was taken over by the Persians in 539, and this leads to another problem in the book of Daniel, which says the city fell to “Darius the Mede.” Chapters 6 and 9 are dated in his reign, but no such figure has been found in any of the texts from the ancient Near East, and indeed there is no place in history for the reign of such a person. Nabonidus was succeeded immediately by Cyrus the Persian, who is the last king to be named in Daniel (1:21 and 10:1).
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PeterB says:
May 12, 2016 at 12:07 pm
Many good things to think about you all. But, I believe that most of you are at a point where ( ok not let’s play my “IF” game ) even if God ( IF there is one ) made you believe one special night by personally proving to you that he exists and that the Bible is accurate, and that JWs are the chosen Org, and that the Org will be making ALL THE CHANGES they need to make in order to get your approval…I believe you all would say in the back of your mind ( even as God is sitting right next to you ) “Crap! OMG, now I have to do something about this? I don’t want to HAVE to do ANYTHING! I was loving my complete freedom from care when it comes to God! CRAAAAAP!”
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Grace says:
May 12, 2016 at 3:26 pm
PeterB,
My conscience is clear, I don’t have anything to justify “if” God was going to ask me at the end of it all. On the other hand the WT has a lot of answering up to do.
If God chose this religion, then why the hell did he give so many bad signals that has cost the lives of so many devoted members? Did he really come & inspect in 1914? If so, then why has “this generation” extended to 3 generations passing & counting since that inspection?
Remember the “millions now living were never meant to die” according cult leader Rutherford. Yet they have all died. Wouldn’t that have been the same as the lie satan told Eve?… “you positively will not die”.
What about the no blood doctrine that seemed to have come about in 1945 after WW2, then became a disfellowshipping offence. THE UNTOLD NUMBER OF LIVES SACRIFICED at the orders of the next cult leader, Nathan Knorr (?) & his regime. But from 1982 on (because of legal reasons) this death sentence has conveniently been adjusted to allow blood fractions. Tell me if there is not blood on the hands of these Cult leaders?
Remember the “youths who put God first” brochure….innocent children dying over a harsh doctrine that tore families apart. The death of those poor little souls means nothing now & rumour has it that they are planning more changes with that doctrine.
Then we have the child rape policies that they refuse to budge on & have been shown up to be utterly ridiculous to the Australian Royal Commission. A policy that tacks itself to the old laws. A policy that leads to distrust towards the professional help needed from the superior authorities. A policy that leads to the lack of support through shunning which often leads to depression & worse suicide (or attempted).
Sorry Peter but you are warning the wrong people about Gods judgement. After all, we’re not the ones implementing our flipflop laws that are often life-threatening then demanding obedience with the message; do or die!
I could go on & on with other legalistic matters that the cult leaders have placed on to the members but it’s all here & other websites if you want to open your mind to the possibility that you are in a satanic operated death cult.
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dee2 says:
May 12, 2016 at 3:59 pm
PeterB:
History shows that mankind’s actions have caused major harmful events on a worldwide scale and so there is always an expectation for such events. I get the impression however, that you seem to be of the opinion that if any such major event should occur it has Biblical significance and so you are consumed with trying to impute Biblical significance to particular events which you believe will happen. The events which you are anticipating could very well happen, however, it is one thing to believe that these events will happen and another thing to attempt to fit these anticipated events to so-called Bible “prophecy”.
As I have proven above, attempting to fit world events to so-called Bible “prophecy” such as is claimed to be written in the book of Daniel is a VERY BAD IDEA. In other words, the events which you anticipate could very well occur but they would have no Biblical significance since the book of Daniel is not historically accurate, it contains failed prophecies regarding past events, it does not contain predictions of mankind’s future and therefore cannot be used for this purpose.
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Winston Smith says:
May 12, 2016 at 4:13 pm
William Miller
Nelson Barbour
Charles Russell
Joseph Ruhtherford
Nathan Knorr
Fred Franz
What do they all have in common? They all presumed to believe that they had the proper interpretation of scripture and knew with certainty that the end would come in their lifetime. And what did they all do? They all wasted their lives waiting for something that never arrived. Even in Rutherford’s own words ‘he made an ass of himself.’
There have always been doomsday cults and believers waiting for the end of all things and they have all wasted their lives and made asses of themselves. I choose not to be one of them. But each one can make their own choice in this regard. But as the old saying goes ‘those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.’
WS
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Searcher says:
May 13, 2016 at 9:42 am
Yeah PeterB? And if my grandma had wheels, then she would be a bicycle. CRAAAAAP!!!
This remark was basically meant to show how unrealistic the chain that you described actually is. None of the chain of events has any evidence or proof of happening. It’s only imagination and speculation. Doesn’t lend too much proof that JW’s are the one and only true religion. What Grace, Dee and WinstonSmith have to say has merit proof. It’s history and fact about the Watchtower. The GB cannot cover that up or change it no matter how hard they try. It’s out there, and it’s RECORDED history about the WTBTS.
I don’t mean this to be harsh or to belittle you in any way. I really don’t want to belittle anyone. I say this because you and so many others that may have the opportunity to read this forum and decide for themselves what is real and what is lies. That is to think about their own beliefs concerning what the Watchtower cult propaganda machine has published and conveniently updated over the years (including their ever-changing version of the bible). However, people believe what they want to believe. I choose to believe the Watchtower is a facade and a ruse for power hungry, control-freak leaders. My conclusion is based on the published facts that I have seen from many more sources other than the Watchtower and the Watchtower publications themselves.
I wish you the best.
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Tara says:
May 12, 2016 at 12:46 pm
Anyone watched Lucifer on tv? Just asking. lol
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Winston Smith says:
May 12, 2016 at 4:14 pm
I have seen Will Ferrell portray Lucifer on SNL. Does that count?
WS
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Tara says:
May 12, 2016 at 5:23 pm
Lol I haven’t seen that. I did enjoy the first season of Lucifer though. Thoroughly nice chap… British you know.
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Chrid says:
May 14, 2016 at 10:11 am
I’m sorry. There was nothing wrong with that video. They were reaffirming to them their position in a world of moral decline. Whether you are a Christian Lloyd or not the Gospel isn’t supposed to be a popular message. Proclaiming truth in any instance even other than religion isn’t popular. Also, the liberals have gotten us to misuse the terms listed as -phobic. This video didn’t promote any FEAR of anything. Phobic would be a misnomer. As a homosexual myself who doesn’t practice I didn’t see anything wrong with this video.
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Winston Smith says:
May 14, 2016 at 11:40 am
Right! And when the Nazis produced anti-Jewish media in the 1930’s and 1940’s (or when Neo-Nazis do it today) they were just reaffirming their position. And when the Ku Klux Klan advocates against blacks in the USA, they are doing the same thing. I am glad that is cleared up.
How about we say they have a right to their intolerant views and to express them, even to their children, but we also have a right to speak out against the intolerance and hatred.
WS
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Chris says:
May 14, 2016 at 6:32 pm
Yes because I’m sure putting Jews to death wishing death of them and eradicating them and putting black peoples to death is the exact same as saying we believe in one man and woman and explain to them what we believe. Yes same thing. . Liberal logic.
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dee2 says:
May 14, 2016 at 8:08 pm
It’s certainly curious to hear about a self- proclaimed homosexual who doesn’t practice homosexuality but who believes in one man and woman.
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Chris says:
May 15, 2016 at 1:11 am
I’m sure just like those who are pedophiles who know its wrong. They believe 1 Cor 6:9-11. They believe the bible and I think it’s great. So I agree with them on everything? And yes I don’t agree with gay marriage. But what I can’t stand is everyone labeling you some negative term because you don’t agree with something. Hey Jesus said it would be like
This in the last day. And it’s not a homophobic video it’s them explain that “men who lie with me will not inherit Gods kingdom”. That’s just what they believe. There was nothing homophobic about this video.
And your analogy of it being the same (which was terribly done by the way) is not the same. God won’t starve them and line them up and hang them and gas chamber them. Again crappy logic. Everyone has a choice. Jews didn’t. I don’t agree with the JWs about who will and will
Not make it to paradise because it completely contradicts their “righteous and unrighteous” ressurection theory.
dee2 says:
May 14, 2016 at 8:18 pm
BTW, in the video, the children are taught that homosexuals won’t make it into the Paradise Earth……….I wonder if that will happen because the God of the JWs will eradicate homosexuals from the earth and put them to death?………..hmmmmm………..it seems it just might be the same thing after all.
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dee2 says:
May 15, 2016 at 7:37 am
Chris:
“Hey Jesus said it would be like
This in the last day.”
– What do you mean by “like This”? What does “This” refer to?
– Where did Jesus make such a statement?
– When would “the last day” be? Are we in “the last day” now?
______
“…..men who lie with me will not inherit Gods kingdom”.
– So what then, will become of/what will happen to those men who lie with men since they will not inherit God’s kingdom?
______
“God won’t starve them and line them up and hang them and gas chamber them. Again crappy logic.”
– So what will God do to homosexuals then?
______
“I don’t agree with the JWs about who will and will Not make it to paradise because it completely contradicts their “righteous and unrighteous” ressurection theory.”
– As I recall, according to JW theology, EVERYONE – homosexual or not – who dies BEFORE Armageddon strikes will be resurrected on the Paradise Earth. So one wonders why the JWs didn’t state this in the video.
– When persons who were homosexuals are resurrected on the Paradise Earth will they stop being homosexuals? If they do, how will this happen? If they don’t, what will be their fate/what will happen to them?
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dee2 says:
May 15, 2016 at 7:56 am
Chris:
When the righteous and the unrighteous (homosexuals will fall into this group, according to you) are resurrected on the Paradise Earth:
– What will be the fate of the righteous?
– What will be the fate of the unrighteous?
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dee2 says:
May 15, 2016 at 8:32 am
Chris:
Additionally, let me not assume anything:
– Where will the resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous take place?
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dee2 says:
May 15, 2016 at 8:32 am
Chris:
Additionally, let me not assume anything:
– Where will the resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous take place?
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Chris says:
May 15, 2016 at 12:33 pm
Dee
I’m not a JW. We believe ALL of mankind will be resurrected Gay or not. We believe that only the Church (Bride Class) is on trial for life. Everyone else will be resurrected during the Millennial Age. We do not believe God is judging the world of mankind in the Gospel Age. All will come out of the grave. The JWs have inserted the word “a Memorial” infront of the word “tombs” in John 5:28,29 to prove their doctrine that not everyone will be resurrected but only those in God’s Memory.
I’m a Bible Student. Not a JW they have a problem with switching the word “ALL” with “All sorts of”. That’s so wrong.
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dee2 says:
May 15, 2016 at 1:51 pm
Chris,
I note that you did not answer any of my questions above.
Anyway, if “ALL of mankind will be resurrected Gay or not. We believe that only the Church (Bride Class) is on trial for life. Everyone else will be resurrected during the Millennial Age. We do not believe God is judging the world of mankind in the Gospel Age. All will come out of the grave”,
– then as per your other comments above, how can you claim that “men who lie with men will not inherit God’s kingdom”?
– Also, where will this resurrection take place?
*******
Do you anticipate that homosexuals who will be resurrected will cease practicing homosexuality?
If so, how will this happen?
What if the homosexuals who will be resurrected do not cease practicing homosexuality? What will their fate be?
********
“We believe that only the Church (Bride Class) is on trial for life.”
– What exactly does this mean?
– What if there are homosexuals among the Church (Bride Class)?
*******
You only mentioned homosexuals who die and whose fate will be a resurrection according to your theology. What about homosexuals who do not die but who are alive AT THE THE TIME Armageddon strikes/ when Jesus comes? What will their fate be?
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Chris says:
May 15, 2016 at 7:14 pm
Dee.
Men who lie with men will not inherit Gods kingdom. Yet again you assume I’m a JW. We believe that all of mankind will be resurrected. Those in the millennium who do the things as shown in 1 Cor 6:9-11 will not inherit the kingdom. Not today. In this Gospel Age only the Bride class is on trial for life. God is not dealing with the world of mankind right now. He is only calling out the bride whom he will use to bless the world as promised by Abraham “in your seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed”.
Armageddon the the social collapse and complete anarchy before the Millennium. Not a war of God on us. It will be social and civil unrest. Not a way for second death as JWs claim. They believe it is final on them. However, they haven’t sinned against the Holy Spirit therefore they will be resurrected.
– No gays (practicing) are not part of the Bride class for 1 Cor 6:9-11 says “for this is what some of you were”.
– the dead will be resurrected on earth. Else wise how can the 144,000 rule over or on the earth?
Yes people will die in Armageddon. But this is not a final judgement. Death aquits us of our sins. They’ve died and now they will be resurrected. The Bride will be in heaven with Christ. Mankind will walk up the way of holiness. The bible tells us at Isaiav 26:9 “when your judgments come upon the earth ALL THE INHABITANTS WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS”. the millennium is a learning process for the world of mankind.
And no not all those who are resurrected resist homosexuality. Remember some will be misled yet again when Satan is let out at the end of the millennial Age.
You can email me at Johnsc11@aol.com
I hate typing on these forums.
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Daniel Bonawitt says:
May 15, 2016 at 8:06 am
I can’t wait until paradise comes! Then those who were gay that are ressurected won’t have to feel whatever it is they have to go through in this imperfect sinful world. Being gay is just a imperfection in some people DNA, Jehovah didn’t create us to be gay. If he did then he wouldn’t have told Adam and EVE to “become many and fill the earth”. It is hard for gay people to accept the truth about how God really feels about homosexuals, because they don’t want to accept the fact that they are wrong because they are proud of there homosexuality. Or they don’t believe that God doesn’t accept them because he created them that way. But as a Christian’s we know that those ways of thinking are wrong, but Jehovah WILL NOT make people do the right thing, whether being homo or changing some other aspect of ones life, then we wouldn’t have free will.
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dee2 says:
May 15, 2016 at 8:41 am
Daniel Bonawitt:
“I can’t wait until paradise comes! Then those who were gay that are ressurected won’t have to feel whatever it is they have to go through in this imperfect sinful world.”
– It seems you are assuming that all gays will die so that they can be resurrected?
– What will happen to those homosexuals who DO NOT DIE BEFORE the Paradise Earth comes but who are alive AT THE TIME Armageddon strikes?
– How will Paradise correct/get rid of homosexuality?
*******
“Being gay is just a imperfection in some people DNA…….”.
– How did this “imperfection in some people DNA” come about? What mechanism is responsible for this “imperfection in some people DNA”?
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Daniel Bonawitt says:
May 15, 2016 at 9:31 am
1) no I wasn’t assuming all gays will die before Armageddon, just saying those you do happen to die before will be resurrected and know the what it feels like without the imperfection of sin. John 5: 28,29
2) when Armageddon comes those who die in it won’t be resurrected, their fate is sealed. The bible likens Armageddon to the days of Noah. All those who died in the flood won’t be resurrected either. They had a chance to listen to the message and they ignored it, people will have plenty of time to hear but most won’t listen because of their own selfishness.
3) Jehovah created Adam and Eve as perfect humans, he doesn’t change and neither does his will, once humans are perfect then they won’t have sin.
4) Adam is responsible for all of our imperfections, they bible says at ROM. 5:12 “through one man sin has entered the world and through sin death has spread to all men because all have sinned.” So once we are resurrected, or live through Armageddon, then that sin we have now will be no more because Jesus’ sacrafice pays for it.
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Caroline says:
May 15, 2016 at 9:51 am
@Daniel, you must realize that during the thousand years that men will all be imperfect still because at the end of that thousand years, there will be another Armageddon where all the “nations” of the earth will gather together against Jehovah and war with him again and then those who Jehovah doesn’t kill then, will be ushered into the paradise.
Who is to blame during those thousand years for all those who will be wanting to fight against Jehovah at the end of the thousand years, when Satan will be abyssed?
Think about it?
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Daniel Bonawitt says:
May 15, 2016 at 1:25 pm
Yes I know, we will slowly be attain perfection over the 1000 years physically and mentally. Meaning people won’t be dying from natural causes, and our way of reasoning will be adjusted on subjects like homosexuality so that everyone will have to know the truth. But just like Satan, those Angel’s who followed him, also Adam and Eve, people will make there own decisions selfishly or not to serve Jehovah. Rev 20:3 explains that Satan will be let out for a short time after the 1000 yrs until he is thrown into the lake of fire along with the humans who follow him .
Chris says:
May 15, 2016 at 12:36 pm
Daniel,
Much of what’s you said is speculation. Where does it say in the bible that those who died in the flood won’t be resurrected? Or those who died in Armageddon.
1. If the only unforgivable sin is sin against the Holy Spirit how can the world of mankind who doesn’t have the Holy Spirit?
2. Is only JWs will survive the end then doesn’t teaching that we much join your organization mean that’s your a cult? And don’t say you don’t teach that people who aren’t JW will all die when I have many watchtower quotes to back it up.
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Chris says:
May 15, 2016 at 12:38 pm
Adding to #1 if they haven received the Holy Spirit then how can they not be resurrected?
dee2 says:
May 15, 2016 at 12:32 pm
Daniel Bonawitt:
According to the video, the Bible states that men who lie with men will not inherit God’s kingdom. So how can you claim that homosexuals will be resurrected on the Paradise Earth?
*********
Based on your comments above, it is therefore best then, that homosexuals die BEFORE Armageddon strikes in order to guarantee that they will be resurrected on the Paradise Earth. We had better let the homosexuals know about this.
********
“The bible likens Armageddon to the days of Noah. All those who died in the flood won’t be resurrected either.”
– How is it that God is going to once again carry out another global annihilation when, according to the Bible, God made an unconditional covenant with Noah that he will NEVER AGAIN DESTROY THE EARTH by means of a flood (Genesis 9:9-17). God promised to keep this covenant, regardless of what man would subsequently do, regardless of whether man would subsequently continue to sin (unconditional covenant). It is a covenant not only between God and Noah, but between God and every living creature (Genesis 9:9-10, 16).
It is an “everlasting covenant,” between God and Noah, and every generation after him (Genesis 9:12). It is God’s promise that He will never again destroy the earth by means of a flood (Genesis 9:11).
– The flood was the world’s first global annihilation, according to the Bible. Was it worth it? Did it accomplish anything given that as you have stated, God will once again carry out another global annihilation by means of Armageddon?
– The WT claims that there will be animals in Paradise yet you have stated that the bible likens Armageddon to the days of Noah/the Flood.
According to the Bible, God was angry with human wickedness but he destroyed animals as well in the worldwide Flood. The animals had nothing to do with sin, yet they were killed anyway.
God wiped out every living creature on the planet just to punish the majority of ONE sinful species.
Dolphins, whales, sharks, fishes, manatees etc., obviously they wouldn’t have drowned – why did God choose to kill the land animals but not the sea animals?
– If God killed everyone except Noah and his family because of sin why didn’t he just kill Adam and Eve when they sinned back in the Garden of Eden? That was when the death if humans was needed the most to prevent evil from entering the world in the first place so that God would not have to once again carry out another global annihilation at Armageddon.
Why didn’t God allow Adam and Eve to die in the very day that they ate the forbidden fruit just like he promised, at a time when they had no children, so that they would not have passed sin on to their descendants?
– According to Genesis 6:5, 13:
“Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually……Then God said to Noah, “The end of all flesh has come before Me; for the earth is filled with violence because of them; and behold, I am about to destroy them with the earth.”
Babies/infants were destroyed during the Flood – what was their sin/wickedness to deserve this?
– Is the Flood story in the Bible a reliable story given that the story appears to involve the meshing of two separate stories:
Genesis 7:15: In the story of the Flood, these verses have Noah collecting two of each species of animals – one male and one female. Genesis 7:2-3 specifies 7 pairs of clean animals and birds and 1 pair of unclean animals. Genesis 7:11 describes water coming from the heavens and from below the ground to generate the worldwideflood. However, Genesis 7:4 describes all of the water falling as rain. Genesis 7:11, 7:17, 7:24 and 8:3 specify different intervals for the flood duration which have no apparent resolution.
– What proof is there outside of the Bible that there was a global Flood during Noah’s day?
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dee2 says:
May 16, 2016 at 4:03 am
******Correction:
God wiped out every living creature on the planet………..
should read:
God wiped out almost all living creatures on the planet……….
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dee2 says:
May 21, 2016 at 12:34 pm
How is it that God is going to once again carry out another global annihilation given that, according to the Bible, God made the following promise to Noah at Genesis 8:21:
“And when the Lord smelled the pleasing odor, the Lord said in his heart, “I will NEVER AGAIN CURSE THE GROUND because of man, for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; NEITHER WILL I EVER AGAIN DESTROY EVERY LIVING CREATURE as I have done.”
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dee2 says:
May 15, 2016 at 12:35 pm
Daniel Bonawitt:
“They had a chance to listen to the message and they ignored it, people will have plenty of time to hear but most won’t listen because of their own selfishness.
– Are you aware that approximately 250,000 persons are born each day? How will 8 million JWs (according to WT statistics) reach everyone with the message so that they can choose to listen and avoid being destroyed?
********
“Jehovah created Adam and Eve as perfect humans, he doesn’t change and neither does his will,”
– What proof do you have that God created Adam and Eve perfect?
********
“……..once humans are perfect then they won’t have sin.”
– How will humans be made perfect so that they will not sin?
– What has caused humans to be imperfect so that they sin?
********
“Adam is responsible for all of our imperfections……..”
– So is it Adam who altered the DNA of his descendants so that
“imperfection is in some people DNA” which makes them gay?
*********
“So once we are resurrected, or live through Armageddon, then that sin we have now will be no more because Jesus’ sacrafice pays for it.”
– How will this impact the “imperfection in some people DNA” which makes them gay?
********
Resurrected homosexuals are still likely to sin during the millennium reign of Christ given that, according to WT theology, persons won’t be made perfect until the end of the thousand years. What will happen to the homosexuals who sin during that time?
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Daniel Bonawitt says:
May 15, 2016 at 2:31 pm
You know if you really want to know the answer to all of your questions you can access all of the information on jw.org. It kind feels like you are not interested in knowing the truth, and I have better things to do than aruge with you and prove points from the bible all day…..especially if you don’t care or believe everything the bible says
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dee2 says:
May 15, 2016 at 2:18 pm
Daniel Bonawitt:
“Yes I know, we will slowly be attain perfection over the 1000 years physically and mentally. Meaning people won’t be dying from natural causes, and our way of reasoning will be adjusted on subjects like homosexuality so that EVERYONE WILL HAVE TO KNOW THE TRUTH.” (emphasis mine).
– JWs know the truth NOW so how it is that they are not attaining perfection NOW? Why are JWs still dying, why are they still committing sins despite knowing the truth NOW?
– Is it just simply knowing the truth that will cause a person to stop dying or committing sins in the Paradise Earth?
– In your other comments above, you stated that “imperfection is in some people DNA” which makes them gay. How will a homosexual’s simply knowing the truth in the Paradise Earth change this situation?
*******
“…….Satan will be let out for a short time after the 1000 yrs until he is thrown into the lake of fire along with the humans who follow him.”
– If any of the resurrected follow Satan, will they be thrown into the lake of fire?
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Daniel Bonawitt says:
May 15, 2016 at 2:37 pm
No matter what question you ask or statement you make , if you think is going to get me to change my beliefs or get me to think a different way….its just not going to happen. After all I don’t have questions about what the bible teaches, but it seems like your the one unsure. Try saying a prayer to Jehovah and asking for clarity on one or two of your questions, and try that everyday. Have a good dad
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Victor says:
May 20, 2016 at 5:36 am
Know what? I did this prayer thing, I prayed intensely to Jehovah to let me know what to do. And he showed me clearly to leave JWs. Perhaps you should follow your own advice.
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dee2 says:
May 15, 2016 at 4:30 pm
Daniel Bonawitt:
“You know if you really want to know the answer to all of your questions you can access all of the information on jw.org.”
It was you who made the comments on this site, so why do I need to go to jw.org, why can’t I get an answer from you?
********
“It kind feels like you are not interested in knowing the truth, and I have better things to do than aruge with you and prove points from the bible all day……”
I am very much interested in finding out if what you stated in your comments is “the truth” which is why I asked you those questions.
You have however, not answered my questions but have instead deflected them with your comments above.
It definitely seems that you do not expect persons to ask questions in order to “Test all things” as the Bible admonishes (1 Thessalonians 5:21), but to instead just gullibly go along with what you have stated and what JWs teach without question.
*******
“…….especially if you don’t care or believe everything the bible says.”
No I do not believe everything which the Bible says and I am sure you don’t either. The Bible states that the earth is flat according to Isaiah 11:12; Job 38:13; Jeremiah 16:19; Daniel 4:11; Matthew 4:8; Revelation 7:1.
Do you believe this?
********
“No matter what question you ask or statement you make , if you think is going to get me to change my beliefs or get me to think a different way….its just not going to happen.”
– How is my asking questions based on the comments which you made changing your mind? Changing your mind is entirely up to you, that is your decision. I am here to ask questions based on the comments which you made as I would like to know if what you stated is really “the truth”.
As I have already stated, it definitely seems that you do not expect persons to ask questions in order to “Test all things” as the Bible admonishes (1 Thessalonians 5:21) but to instead just gullibly go along with what you have stated and what JWs teach without question.
– Also, I am sure you go preaching trying to change people’s minds so that you can convert them to the JW religion. Why do you do this to persons if you don’t want it done to you?
*******
“After all I don’t have questions about what the bible teaches, but it seems like your the one unsure.”
In addition to the foregoing example of the Bible’s teaching that the earth is flat, the Bible also teaches that the earth is stationary according to Psalms 93:1; 104:5; 96:10.
I do not agree with this based on scientific evidence which has been provided. Do you agree with these Bible teachings?
*******
“Try saying a prayer to Jehovah and asking for clarity on one or two of your questions, and try that everyday.”
For sure, I am going to pray to God and ask him to clarify whether the earth is flat or if it is stationary as I have never done this before. I will be certain to let you know if I hear anything back from God regarding these questions.
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Chris says:
May 25, 2016 at 1:07 pm
“In addition to the foregoing example of the Bible’s teaching that the earth is flat, the Bible also teaches that the earth is stationary according to Psalms 93:1; 104:5; 96:10.”
This is not what the Bible says. Why would you assume that the “Earth is firmly established and will not be moved” means that the earth is stationary? Where does the Bible Indicate that this means that the earth doesn’t physically move? Can you prove this this was the view of the Jews? If so why do you hold that this literally means the earth does not move? can’t this simply mean that the earth is fixed in its orbit and not on it’s axis? Why can’t this mean that it is fixed in relation to us being that it always with us and and i don’t wake up in space.
You’re statement is illogical and is a superficial reasoning on those scriptures. They are generally thrown by atheists who have no deep knowledge of the bible.
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dee2 says:
May 15, 2016 at 6:47 pm
Daniel Bonawitt:
“1) no I wasn’t assuming all gays will die before Armageddon, just saying those you do happen to die before will be resurrected and know the what it feels like without the imperfection of sin. John 5: 28,29″
John 5:28-29 states:
“Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil WILL RISE TO BE CONDEMNED.” (emphasis mine).
According to John 5:28, 29 which you have applied to homosexuals, they (homosexuals) will rise/be resurrected to be condemned. They are not going to live based on this scripture, so how can you claim that they will “know what it feels like without the imperfection of sin”? I imagine that they would have to live in order to be able to know this?
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Chris says:
May 15, 2016 at 7:28 pm
But like I said Dee. Email me Johnsc11@aol.com
Typing on forums on a cellphone sucks. My laptop at school doesn’t allow us to comment on forums. 🙂
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Winston Smith says:
May 16, 2016 at 6:59 am
A couple clarifications I’d like to add to this chain that I noticed about it:
1.) Gay marriage was mentioned at one point. In this argumentation, Gay Marriage is a red hering and not germane to the argument about Watchtower’s condemnation of all homosexuals (whether they are married or not they are still gay).
2.) Liberals or liberalism. This has been mentioned several times. It’s Straw Man rhetoric. To associate anyone who supports the fact that homosexuals have no control over their sexual orientation and should not be persecuted for it with liberalism is poor argumentation. Personal politics (mine which by the way are conservative-republican) have little bearing on the issue as to whether Watchtower’s video was or was not appropriate.
WS
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Chris says:
May 16, 2016 at 8:22 am
Winston,
They don’t condemn homosexuals. I have homosexual tendencies and I have never felt so welcome.
One thing we have to recognize, is that Bible Students before Rutherford believed that all of mankind would be resurrected. JWs have condemned them.
I am Bible Student.
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Winston Smith says:
May 16, 2016 at 4:59 pm
Chris,
By “they” I assume you mean “true” bible students and / or Christians and not JWs? At the end of your comment you say that JWs have condemned them.
So don’t you feel it is inappropriate of the Watchtower society to teach young children that homosexuals won’t be allowed in the Kingdom, hence condemning them? Who is the watchtower society to pass judgement? Isnt it reserved for God to judge? i.e. Matt 7:1-5.
WS
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Chris says:
May 25, 2016 at 2:54 pm
No I don’t. The bible wouldn’t condemn homosexuality and teach us to teach others about Gods Ways. Judging is condemning. I have not condemned anyone.
dee2 says:
May 16, 2016 at 3:07 pm
Hi Chris,
I would like to offer a suggestion should you still be experiencing problems with commenting on forums. Does your mobile phone have a Tethering and Portable Hotspot feature? It should be included in the Settings of your phone or perhaps you could contact your mobile service provider or whoever you obtained your phone from to find out. If your phone has this feature, then you can use it as a Wi-Fi hotspot to connect your laptop to the internet.
I hope that you will be able to find a solution to your problem as I prefer to respond to you in the forum so that others can benefit from our exchanges or add their comments if they wish.
******
“Men who lie with men will not inherit Gods kingdom. Yet again you assume I’m a JW. We believe that all of mankind will be resurrected. Those in the millennium who do the things as shown in 1 Cor 6:9-11 will not inherit the kingdom. Not today.”
– Claiming that homosexuals will not receive a divine penalty now/today but at a future anticipated period instead, does not change the fact that homosexuals are still being discriminated against by your theology.
What your theology has done is to simply delay/defer/shift THE TIME AT WHICH/WHEN homosexuals will be discriminated against: “we won’t discriminate against homosexuals now, we will do it at a future time”, is what your theology is saying.
******
“No gays (practicing) are not part of the Bride class for 1 Cor 6:9-11 says “for this is what some of you were”.
– Does the Bride Class exist on earth today?
“The Bride will be in heaven with Christ.”
– When will the Bride Class be in heaven with Christ? Does this happen all at once or is it over a period of time?
******
“We believe that all of mankind (including homosexuals) will be resurrected.”
“the dead will be resurrected on earth.”
– What will happen to homosexuals when they are resurrected?
– Will people continue to die or will persons be living forever on the earth at this time?
– Will people continue to have children at this time?
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dee2 says:
May 16, 2016 at 3:10 pm
Hi Chris cont’d,
“Yes people will die in Armageddon.”
– Who are the people who will die during Armageddon?
– Why will they die? What will be the reason for their death?
– How will they die? Who will put them to death?
– Will there be persons who will survive Armageddon?
If so, who are these persons?
Why do they survive Armageddon and are not killed?
*******
“And no not all those who are resurrected resist homosexuality. Remember some will be misled yet again when Satan is let out at the end of the millennial Age.”
– How will it be possible for the resurrected who do not resist homosexuality to die again when the Bible states that you can only die once?
***Hebrews 9:27 New International Version (NIV):
“Just as people are destined to DIE ONCE, and after that to face judgment”.
***Luke 20:34-36 (NIV):
“The people of THIS AGE marry and are given in marriage. But those who are considered worthy of taking part in THE AGE TO COME and IN THE RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD will neither marry nor be given in marriage, and they CAN NO LONGER DIE; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.”
(emphasis mine).
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Chris says:
May 16, 2016 at 5:59 pm
Dee-
It’s not a problem with the server or internet its typing all of my thoughts on a cell phone. But I busted out my laptop.
The Bible is silent when they says how things will happen in the millennium. And atheists and intellectuals like to think they are correct when someone in a religion says “I don’t know.
You asked “What will happen to homosexuals when they are resurrected” well the same goes for alcoholics, pedophiles and all others that claim they have it in their DNA. If they want to come into harmony with God they will have to abandoned those tendencies. Now we can only speculate since the bible is very silent on “the age to come” how mankind will be brought into harmony with God. Everyone si born with something that they have to fight. But we know that it will not be easy since Rev 2:27 says “and he will rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received authority from my Father.”
The Bible teaches that mankind will walk up the highway of holiness.
“And a highway will be there; it will be called the Way of Holiness; it will be for those who walk on that Way. The unclean will not journey on it; wicked fools will not go about on it.” Isaiah 35:8
You asked “who will die in armageddon.” Remember that the concept of Armageddon being a battle between God an man in which God destroys mankind is a JW theology. According to the Bible it is when mankind goes into complete anarchy. It’s not “oh well she’s a lesbian she’s going to die.” That’s JW’s Armageddon is a better between mankind and themselves. We can already in these days see a huge class war. We have black vs white, native vs foreigner, Christian vs atheist, Muslim against Christian, Male vs female. Eventually this will all clash.
You asked about how can the homosexuals die again when the bible says we only die one? This reminds be of a question you asked earlier in which your logic was completely off. You asked how can Hod destroy the world AGAIN when he said that he would never again destroy mankind with a flood? Well who says it has to be with a flood? Mankind only dies the ADAMIC death one time. All of mankind is under the Adamic Sentence of death. Jesus’ death guarantees the resurrection for all only one time. Afterwards in the millennium the bible shows that those who do not go into life thereafter is called the Second Death from which there is no resurrection. What’s a second death it not like the first? Jesus only died one time and we are resurrected one time. When we have perfect knowledge and we follow satan at the end of the millennium and we go into the second death then thats it. He will not die a second time.
Many think that Judgement is the rendering of a verdict. However Isaiah 26:9 says “…When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness.” If we are judged heaven or hell at death then how can we learn righteousness?
When mankind is awaken from the sleep of death they will for 1000 years walk up the Highway of Holiness and learn God’s ways.
Isaiah 2:3- Many peoples will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the temple of the God of Jacob. HE WILL TEACH US HIS WAYS, so that we may walk in his paths.” The law will go out from Zion, the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.”
This has not happened yet. This is in the millennium. If judgement after resurrection is a final judgment then why in this scripture is there people saying he will teach them his ways?
You stated that all our theology has done is shift/defer this process of when homosexuals will be discriminated against.
-Yes absolutely. God sets the rules not us. When you own a house and someone likes to watch porn on their phones do you allow them to do it because thats just who they are and who are you to judge? Absolutely not. They may have a problem but you don’t have too tolerate it. It seems to me that we consider homosexuality normal because of our society. The fact it is it not normal It is an imperfection that God allows to exist. God said we are not to live that lifestyle and therefore he will in the millennium let them know what is required of them. Those who obey now by not living that lifestyle are deemed overcomes. Now we can only speculate as to when their desires will be removed or if they will be resurrected without these desires. We can only guess. But your question can also be applied to pedophiles in which they believe that their desires are natural and has had them since their youth. Do we consider it discrimination when a 15 year old sleeps with a 28 year old? Why not? Its natural and they say they’ve always felt like that.
You asked “will people still bear children?” Again we can only speculate.
We believe that mankind will have atlas 100 years to obey or be cut off. Some even today do not want to believe in a God. They would rather die. But everyone will have at least 100 years in the millennium to make progress.
Isaiah 65:20 “the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere child; the one who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed.”
But I must end here i used to debate for days and I don’t usually do this anymore. Too much time and energy. But like I said email me!
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Sanna says:
May 17, 2016 at 6:48 am
JW teach us that you can be gay if you just don´t act gay. And a staight JW has to get married if he/she is to horny, because it´s not allowed to masturbate. So what do they expect a homosexual JW to do if he/she have lust? Pray?
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Doc Obvious says:
May 17, 2016 at 7:46 am
I love how Watchtower Bible and Tract Society waits till the end of United States President Obama’s presidency’s last term, to release the BECOME JEHOVAH’S FRIEND Lesson 22: One Man, One Woman children’s video. Why did Watchtower wait so long? Do they have fear of United States President Obama and what he would do to them?
Why is it that a woman in Kentucky and man who creates duck calls can address the issue when it starts, but an organization who believes they have God’s backing cannot join their voices to the woman and man who stand up for God.
To me, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is a follower and not a leader. Instead of being bold, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is in hiding until the very end.
What a bunch of wimps!
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dee2 says:
May 17, 2016 at 5:31 pm
Chris,
“In this Gospel Age only the Bride class is on trial for life. God is not dealing with the world of mankind right now. He is only calling out the bride……….”
Where exactly in the Bible is this stated?
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Chris says:
May 18, 2016 at 5:49 am
Good morning,
Yes Jesus in the Gospel Age is on working with the Bride class ONLY. There is not one scripture that says this directly.Its the plan from beginning to end of this age. You have to look at the plan from the beginning. When Adam and Eve sinned and fell God has been working since then to bring mankind back into harmony with him. He promised Abraham “Through your seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed.” He first offered the privilege to Israel that they would be kings and priests over the earth IF they were faithful. They would be given the responsibility of blessing the nations. However, Jehovah did not work with any other nation unless it was in his plan such as conquering Caanan. He did not commission them to convert the world to their ways or be doomed. Then after Jesus came and Israel’s exclusive favor was cast off Jehovah opened up the way for Gentiles to be “grafted in” and be given the chance to be part of the bride and uplift mankind out of sin and imperfection. He does not commission us to convert the world but to call out his sheep. He is calling out a people for his name. Not converting the world of mankind. We preach so can find those who will respond and run the race for the mark of the prize of the high calling.
One way we can see this in the scriptures is the Day of Atonement. For 6 days the priests that were inside the tabernacle were being developed for their priestly duties. The camp which represents the world of mankind was not dealt with. On the 7th day there went out into the camp (representing the world of mankind) and blessed them just as the priests will do in the 7th day (millennium).
If Jehovah was working with everyone then this life would be the only test for everyone and would defeat the purpose of the millennium. our reward would be at the end of the age and not the millennium. Why would God test us now and then test us at the end of the millennium? Was this not enough?
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dee2 says:
May 18, 2016 at 12:21 pm
Chris:
“Why would God test us now and then test us at the end of the millennium? Was this not enough?”
– Is it God or Satan who is testing us now? Is it God or Satan who will be testing us at the end of the millennium?
– Will the Bride Class that is being called out right now, and who according to your theology, goes to heaven, also be tested at the end of the millennium?
If not, why not?
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Chris says:
May 18, 2016 at 5:57 pm
God is letting us be tested. But Jesus only taughg second death to his followers. The only unforgivable sin in the bible is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. How can the world sin against what they don’t have? The bible says that there is no forgiveness now or in the AGE TO COME. So obviously people will sin in the age to come.
We believe there I only one calling that Jesus falls us to. That’s heaven. The JWs have shifter the Great Crowd from heaven to earth in 1935. We believe Jesus is calling those to a heavenly hope. We believe that those who do not make the 144,000 (because not everyone wins the race) will fall into two different places: Great Company or Second Death. So no not only 144,000 are in heaven.
Caroline. Read closer. It’s all there. The whole theme of the Bible is ransom and restitution. Not turn or burn.
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Chris says:
May 18, 2016 at 5:59 pm
Clarification: there is
No forgiveness now or in the age to come for blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
That Jesus Calls us to**
Caroline says:
May 18, 2016 at 3:21 pm
@Chris, where in the Bible did you find all of what you were saying? I don’t see any scriptures.
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dee2 says:
May 18, 2016 at 6:52 pm
Chris,
I note that you did not answer the following question, so I am asking it again, if you don’t mind:
Will the Bride Class (same as the 144,000 according to your theology) that is being called out right now, be tested at the end of the millennium?
If not, why not?
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Chris says:
May 18, 2016 at 7:06 pm
Dee. forgive me for not answering all your questions as you seem have to so many.
No they will not be tested again at the end of the millennium. Why? Because they are the overcomeers of the Gospel Age. They are tried true and faithful. And the bible says that second death has no power over them. They have been tried and will receive the crown of life in their resurrection
Rev 20:6
“Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.”
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dee2 says:
May 18, 2016 at 9:34 pm
Chris,
So, according to your theology persons (including homosexuals) who do not pass the Gospel Age test instigated by Satan and allowed by God, will have the opportunity to be tested again at the end of the millennium.
Why test persons a second time – if they didn’t pass the test the first time, what is going to make them pass the test the second time?
*******
“God is letting us be tested.”
Nice to see God and his arch-nemesis, Satan, collaborating and working together. It doesn’t seem that things are so bad between them after all.
Reply
Chris says:
May 19, 2016 at 3:09 am
It’s not a second chance. That’s what people don’t get. Many dont know God or are blinded by the God of this age. They don’t know the truth. Like I’ve said before only those who are going to be kings and priests are being developed. Not the world of mankind. Christendom has this belief that we must accept now or burn in hell. If Jesus comes back to judge guilty or not guilty why would we need the millennium?. These questions can be answered in every other post. Isaiah 26:9 shows that during judgement the woRld will learn RIGHTEOUNESS. I’ve also shown the highway of holiness that people will pass on. They will be unblinded and taught the truth for 1000 years. This is why Satan is let out again at the end of the 1000 years. If it was only good people that make it to the millennium why would God allow them to be deceived l/test twice? Unless it’s manys for toe opportunity while knowing the truth for the first time.
I can’t keep going back and forth. If you’d like I can send you a copy of the The Divine Plan of the Ages.
Reply
dee2 says:
May 19, 2016 at 6:30 am
Chris,
I am already familiar with the information in The Divine Plan of the Ages.
“Many dont know God or are blinded by the God of this age. They don’t know the truth.”
– So, is it that God is allowing Satan to ONLY do selective testing during the Gospel Age, so that Satan ONLY tests those persons who know “the truth” during the Gospel Age?
– What if a person knows “the truth” during the Gospel Age but still remains a homosexual and dies as a homosexual before the millennium starts – will this person be resurrected?
– What if a person knows “the truth” during the Gospel Age but still remains a homosexual and this person is alive at the time the millennium commences – what will happen to such a person?
Reply
Chris says:
May 19, 2016 at 7:37 am
I’m sorry I don’t believe you. If you were familiar with the book all your questions would be answered. I am familiar with the contents of the Koran but have never read it. There is a difference.
All mankind is blind. The bride class is on trial for life. I did not say God is only testing the bride class. I said He is only testing them for life. Satan is still misleading the world. They will miss out on being part of the bride class by being deceived by atheism, evolution, and false religion. So don’t think they are getting off easy. They are missing out on the prize of the high calling. Because, now question for you why would God allow those in the millennium to learn the truth if they are only allowed NOW to learn? see Isaiah 26:9.
There is a difference between knowing the truth and actually laying down your life in consecration to God to the high calling. Ask yourself, why would God allow you to be blind and then punish you for being blind? It makes so sense according to Christendoms theology.
if the whole world was on trial not for life then it would be our fault for not reaching all corners of the earth with the message. Then we have to start inventing “well God would allow them into heaven because they didn’t have an opportunity.” Now this would defeat the whole purpose of Jesus.
Ask yourself why would God call people and punish those who are not called? That’s wrong and its not the God of the Bible.
They are not cooperating. Thats th same argument when people say that Satan is ruling Hell right now. Well why would he punish those who are bad? If he cooperating with Jehovah and punishing the unrepentant. Your argument is moot. He is misleading us especially the bride class so that we go into second death or we lose out on the prize. That’s not what Jehovah wants and that’s what Satan wants. this shows they are not cooperating.
No. If one is consecrated and lays down his life in service to Jehovah then turns around willingly and knowingly goes back into sin then he loses life. This is called sinning against the holy spirit. We have some that say they will be resurrected and judged unworthy or they won’t be. There’s no definite statement on this. Jesus said this when he talked about Gehenna with his followers.
Please read: https://chicagobible.org/nightime-of-sin-to-end-in-the-morning/
Reply
dee2 says:
May 19, 2016 at 9:47 pm
Chris – PART 1:
It has certainly been interesting to discuss the Bible Students’ beliefs versus the JWs’ beliefs regarding homosexuality.
You stated above that the JWs condemn homosexuals but the Bible Students don’t. However, based on your subsequent comments, it is evident that the Bible Students also condemn homosexuals:
– “No gays (practicing) are not part of the Bride class for 1 Cor 6:9-11 says “for this is what some of you were”.
So, homosexuals can’t be a part of the Bride Class, which is being called out today.
_________
– “Men who lie with men will not inherit Gods kingdom. Yet again you assume I’m a JW. We believe that all of mankind (including homosexuals) will be resurrected. Those in the millennium who do the things as shown in 1 Cor 6:9-11 will not inherit the kingdom. Not today.”
So if homosexuals who are resurrected in the future millennium do not conform, they will be put to death:
“We believe that mankind will have atlas 100 years to obey or be cut off………But everyone will have at least 100 years in the millennium to make progress.”
_________
– “No. If one is consecrated and lays down his life in service to Jehovah then turns around willingly and knowingly goes back into sin then he loses life.”
1). So if a person knows “the truth” during the Gospel Age but still remains a homosexual and dies as a homosexual before the millennium starts this person will not be resurrected.
2). And, if a person knows “the truth” during the Gospel Age but still remains a homosexual and this person is alive at the time the millennium commences, this person will not be allowed to live for the entire millennium:
“We believe that mankind will have atlas 100 years to obey or be cut off………But everyone will have at least 100 years in the millennium to make progress.”
________
– “And no not all those who are resurrected resist homosexuality. Remember some will be misled yet again when Satan is let out at the end of the millennial Age.”
Satan misleads persons into becoming homosexuals.
**********
“We believe that all of mankind (including homosexuals) will be resurrected. Those in the millennium who do the things as shown in 1 Cor 6:9-11 will not inherit the kingdom……..the dead will be resurrected on earth. Else wise how can the 144,000 rule over or on the earth?”
When does the earthly resurrection of these persons who are NOT part of the group who will “be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years” (Rev. 20:6) – Bride Class according to your theology – take place?
According to Revelation 20, a resurrection will take place:
– at the BEGINNING of the millennium: of persons who “came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”
– and at the END of the millennium: of “the rest of the dead who did not come to life until the thousand years were ended”.
So, according to the Bible:
– there is no resurrection of any other persons apart from the Bride Class that takes place at the beginning of the millennium
– there is no resurrection of anyone during the millennium
********
Are any members of the Bride Class already in heaven?
********
“No gays (practicing) are not part of the Bride class for 1 Cor 6:9-11 says “for this is what some of you were”.
– What about persons who are homosexuals who were never reached with “the truth” during the Gospel Age, but despite their not knowing “the truth” these person stop practicing homosexuality during the Gospel Age.
Will these persons become members of the Bride Class?
– What about persons who were never homosexuals or who don’t do any of the things stated in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, yet they were never reached with “the truth” during the Gospel Age?
Will they become members of the Bride Class?
Reply
Chris says:
May 19, 2016 at 11:45 pm
No. Whe it says “did not come to life” doesn’t mean “ressurection”. It means being brought into everlasting life condition. Because their life depends on how the acted in the millennium.
Now we only did the Adamic death one time. After that it’s life or SECOND DEATH. Second death is which there is no resurrection for.
Please read the studied books. It’s explains all
Of this.
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dee2 says:
May 19, 2016 at 9:53 pm
Chris – PART 2:
“The bride class is on trial for life. I did not say God is only testing the bride class. I said He is only testing them for life.”
So what is God testing the rest of mankind for during the Gospel Age, if he is not testing them for life like the Bride Class?
*******
“Satan is still misleading the world. They will miss out on being part of the bride class by being deceived by atheism, evolution, and false religion. So don’t think they are getting off easy. They are missing out on the prize of the high calling.”
Why do these persons miss out on being part of the bride class? Why do these persons miss out on the prize of the high calling?
Does this happen because “the truth” did not reach these persons?
*********
“Why would God test us now and then test us at the end of the millennium? Was this not enough?………. God is letting us be tested……… I did not say God is only testing the bride class. I said He is only testing them for life. Satan is still misleading the world.”
I can only conclude that God is collaborating with Satan, his arch-nemesis, if this is the case. Since God is using Satan to do his work for him, then God and Satan are collaborating.
*********
“if the whole world was on trial not for life then it would be our fault for not reaching all corners of the earth with the message……..Ask yourself why would God call people and punish those who are not called?”
– So the only reason why some persons are on trial for life as members of the Bride Class during the Gospel Age, is because they were reached with the message/”the truth”. This therefore means that if you are not a part of the Bride Class it’s just your bad luck that you weren’t reached with the message/”the truth” during the Gospel Age.
*******
“………the concept of Armageddon being a battle between God an man in which God destroys mankind is a JW theology. According to the Bible it is when mankind goes into complete anarchy.”
– Where exactly in the Bible is this stated?
– There are other persons who believe that humanity’s demise could be our own doing but they do not give this potential demise any Biblical significance. For example, physicist Stephen Hawking thinks there are 4 ways in which the world could end, but he doesn’t give this any Biblical significance:http://www.techinsider.io/stephen-hawking-predictions-about-the-end-of-the-world-2016-1
– Does Armageddon have anything to do with the future millennium which the Bible Students anticipate?
– Will anything happen to the world governments when the millennium commences?
– Where will the world governments be during the millennium?
********
“When mankind is awaken from the sleep of death they will for 1000 years walk up the Highway of Holiness and learn God’s ways.”
– Is there some physical process that will take place in our bodies which will make it possible for humans to live for 1000 years?
Reply
dee2 says:
May 19, 2016 at 9:58 pm
Chris – PART 3
“We believe that all of mankind (including homosexuals) will be resurrected.”
“When mankind is awaken from the sleep of death they will for 1000 years walk up the Highway of Holiness and learn God’s ways.”
If all of mankind will be resurrected plus there will be persons who will not die but who will be alive when the millennium commences, and if all these persons will be living for 1000 years without dying, will they all fit on the earth?
How Many People Have Ever Lived On Earth? 108 billion as at mid-2011 according to Population Reference Bureau estimates:http://www.prb.org/Publications/Articles/2002/HowManyPeopleHaveEverLivedonEarth.aspx
The earth’s land area is: 148 326 000 square km (57 268 900 square miles)
Based on these figures, the earth’s population density would be 728 persons per square km (1886 persons per square mile).
How does this compare to the current situation in China?
According tohttp://www.worldometers.info/world-population/china-population/ :
The current population of China is 1,381,588,762 as of Thursday, May 19, 2016, based on the latest United Nations estimates.
The total land area of China is 9,390,784 square km (3,625,800 square miles).
Based on these figures, the current population density of China is 147 persons per square km (381 persons per square miles).
So the population density of a paradise earth, based solely on the number of persons estimated to be resurrected, would be about 5 times that of China. Would this be ecologically sustainable?
– will each person be able to live under his own vine and fig tree?
– will persons be able to continue having children with such a population density, given that there will be no more death?
********
“If Jesus comes back to judge guilty or not guilty why would we need the millennium?”
– What reason(s) is(are) there to believe that there is a millennium which is yet to come?
*********
“You asked about how can the homosexuals die again when the bible says we only die one? This reminds be of a question you asked earlier in which your logic was completely off. You asked how can Hod destroy the world AGAIN when he said that he would never again destroy mankind with a flood? Well who says it has to be with a flood? ”
If God would still carry out a global annihilation using other means apart from a flood then was the covenant between God Noah, and EVERY GENERATION AFTER HIM (Genesis 9:12) and between God and EVERY LIVING CREATURE (Genesis 9:9-10, 16) necessary?
What was the point of instituting such a covenant or why bother to institute such a covenant if God would still carry out a global annihilation using other means apart from a flood?
Suppose Noah was still alive when another global annihilation by God was carried out using a different means apart from a flood, would Noah think that God was still honouring the covenant which God made with him?
What you are claiming is that God made a covenant with Noah
and EVERY GENERATION AFTER HIM (Genesis 9:12) about the MEANS by which the global annihilation was carried out and not about the ANNIHILATION ITSELF. Would Noah have understood that the covenant was about the MEANS by which the global annihilation was carried out and not about the ANNIHILATION ITSELF?
If God would still carry out a global annihilation using other means apart from a flood then it was not necessary for God to have made the covenant with Noah, and EVERY GENERATION AFTER HIM (Genesis 9:12). The covenant was not necessary if God would need to carry out more global annihilations in the future………unless God is not omniscient and all-knowing as the Bible claims and so he made the covenant in error.
Reply
dee2 says:
May 21, 2016 at 12:36 pm
How is it that God is going to once again carry out another global annihilation given that, according to the Bible, God made the following promise to Noah at Genesis 8:21:
“And when the Lord smelled the pleasing odor, the Lord said in his heart, “I will NEVER AGAIN CURSE THE GROUND because of man, for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; NEITHER WILL I EVER AGAIN DESTROY EVERY LIVING CREATURE as I have done.”
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dee2 says:
May 19, 2016 at 10:02 pm
Chris – PART 4
“Mankind only dies the ADAMIC death one time.”
“When we have perfect knowledge and we follow satan at the end of the millennium and we go into the second death then thats it. He will not die a second time.”
So, according to your theology, any resurrected homosexual who does not conform during the millennium or any resurrected person who follows satan at the end of the millennium and does not resist homosexuality will die a second time.
This however ignores that Jesus stated that persons resurrected in the age to come CAN NO LONGER DIE. So how will it be possible for a person resurrected in the age to come to die again?
Luke 20:34-36 (NIV):
“The people of THIS AGE marry and are given in marriage. But those who are considered worthy of taking part in THE AGE TO COME and IN THE RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD will neither marry nor be given in marriage, and they CAN NO LONGER DIE; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.”
(emphasis mine).
_______
According to your theology, we can die:
* an Adamic death for sins committed by Adam
* after being resurrected, a non-Adamic death for sins which we ourselves commit during the future millennium
So if we can die a non-Adamic death for sins which we commit ourselves, why do we have to die an Adamic death for sins which someone else (Adam) committed?
In other words, Adam’s sin did not have to be passed on to his descendants in order for them to die since they can die for their own sins according to your theology.
______
– What is “perfect knowledge”?
– Your comment implies that we do not have “perfect knowledge” now – why don’t we have “perfect knowledge” now?
_______
– Persons who don’t die the Adamic death, but who are alive at the time the anticipated future millennium begins, will live forever if they pass the test at end of millennium. There will therefore be some persons who will never ever die at all.
So some people will never have to die the Adamic death for Adamic sin although according to the Bible, it is appointed for man to die once. This certainly proves that it really wasn’t necessary for people to die for the sins committed by someone else – Adam – after all, since some persons will escape the “wages of sin” which is (Adamic) death (Romans 6:23). It won’t be true that the “wages of sin is death” in their case.
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Chris says:
May 19, 2016 at 11:39 pm
Dee. Read the divine plan of the ages. All these questions are answered for you. I don’t want to answer anymore. I mean come on 4 parts. Read the Studies in the a Scripture. I’m not answering anymore. Have a good day.
Reply
Chris says:
May 19, 2016 at 11:55 pm
As for your never die again. This is Adamic death. Because God would be a liar to call it’s a second death.
Ezekiel 18:20
“The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.”
In the millennium it’s no longer the sin of Adam
That we will die for but our own.
As for
Your population question. Every person that has ever existed can fit shoulder to shoulder in Texas.
There are different resurrections. The bible talks about the “happy are those who are in the first ressurection. For these the second death has no
Power.”
The ressurection is not all at once. “The first will be last and the last will be first.”
Plus I think you should lighten up on the “what ifs”. I don’t do scenarios. I tell my students that all the time. When I said no talking thy says “what if this happens”. We can’t have an endless case of scenarios.
Please read the Studies.
I won’t be back in here for responses anymore.
You asked why do we have to die for sins Adam committed? Ask God that. We know that Adam sin passed onto us.
Reply
dee2 says:
May 20, 2016 at 11:48 am
Chris,
“No. Whe it says “did not come to life” doesn’t mean “ressurection”. It means being brought into everlasting life condition. Because their life depends on how the acted in the millennium.”
So the Bible Students have therefore resorted to an ad hoc definition of “COMING TO LIFE” making it mean something else other than “resurrection” in Revelation 20:5.
The irony is that this ad hoc definition of “COMING TO LIFE” contradicts the use of the same expression in the previous verse in which “COMING TO LIFE” means “resurrection”:
Revelation 20:4 “And they CAME TO LIFE ( = resurrection) and ruled with the Christ for a thousand years……. This is the first resurrection.”
According to the Bible Students’ theology, “COMING TO LIFE” has two different meanings in the same chapter of Revelation:
– it means “resurrection” in Revelation 20:4
– but in the very next verse, Revelation 20:5, it does not mean “resurrection”, it means something else: “it means being brought into everlasting life condition”.
This ad hoc interpretation of “COMING TO LIFE” as “being brought into everlasting life condition” during the millennium is a blatant attempt to avoid the plain meaning of these verses when they are taken at face value.
**********
“As for Your population question. Every person that has ever existed can fit shoulder to shoulder in Texas.”
I thought the idea was that everyone would be living under his own vine and fig tree………not “shoulder to shoulder”?
According to Population Reference Bureau estimates, 108 billion people have lived on earth as at mid-2011 :http://www.prb.org/Publications/Articles/2002/HowManyPeopleHaveEverLivedonEarth.aspx
The land area of TEXAS is: 678,051.4 square km (261,797.12 square miles) according to
ipl dot org/div/stateknow/popchart.html
Based on these figures, the population density of TEXAS would be 159,280 persons per square km (412,533 persons per square mile).
How does this compare to the current situation in China?
According tohttp://www.worldometers.info/world-population/china-population/ :
The current population of China is 1,381,605,913 as of Friday, May 20, 2016, based on the latest United Nations estimates.
The total land area of China is 9,390,784 square km (3,625,800 square miles).
Based on these figures, the current population density of China is 147 persons per square km (381 persons per square mile).
So the population density of the millennium earth using the land area of TEXAS and using the number of persons estimated to be resurrected, would be about 1,083 times that of China……..interesting. Would this be ecologically sustainable?
Reply
dee2 says:
May 21, 2016 at 10:09 am
Chris,
Even if “COMING TO LIFE” should mean something else as you have claimed – it “doesn’t mean “ressurection”. It means being brought into everlasting life condition”;
– there is still nowhere in the Bible which states that there is a resurrection of other persons at the beginning of the millennium apart from those who “came to life and (who) will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years” (Revelation 20:4 – 6).
– there is still nowhere in the Bible which states that there will be a resurrection of persons during the millennium.
Reply
Chris says:
May 25, 2016 at 3:09 pm
Your error is that only 381 people can fit into a square mile. If you read my comment it states that everyone can fit shoulder to shoulder in Texas. Not only 381 per square mile. I said “shoulder to shoulder” Therefore since I am a math teacher I pick to your error out right away. You mentioned “ecologically sustainable”. You do realize it’s out belief that the earth is cursed and things do no grow in the same way they didn’t the garden of Eden. I’m sure in a restored perfect world the earth will yelid a lot more than we have now. But don’t take that as an absolute and ask 50 questions with it that would
Only be assumptions and think because we don’t know that that must mean that we are wrong.
As for your faulty interpretation of Micah 4:4 it doesn’t show that each person will have a certain amount of space for land. Although a taken-out-of-context interpretation would make it seem so. It’s shows him enjoying his own fruitage and hard work and dwelling in peace. .
Micah 4:3b-4
“They will beat their swords into plowsharesAnd their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation,Nor will they learn war anymore. 4 They will sit, each one under his vine and under his fig tree,And no one will make them afraid,For the mouth of Jehovah of armies has spoken.”
This is a discussion of peace. Not of everyone being spread out over and earth that cannot sustain itself. Plus taking my words out of context and saying shoulder to shoulder doesn’t mean that we have to live shoulder to shoulder as portrayed in your comment about under his own fig tree. You assumed that my comment means we will all live together. Not as bright as I thought you were.
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dee2 says:
May 20, 2016 at 11:55 am
Chris,
“Plus I think you should lighten up on the “what ifs”. I don’t do scenarios. I tell my students that all the time. When I said no talking thy says “what if this happens”. We can’t have an endless case of scenarios.”
What you are therefore saying is that persons should just accept without question, what you tell them or what is written in the Bible Students’ publications. The Bible however admonishes that we should “test all things” (1 Thessalonians 5:21), not to just gullibly accept without asking questions.
Chris, it is a simple matter: If you don’t do “what if” questions/scenarios then it simply means that the information provided by the Bible Students is inadequate, it doesn’t mean that the “what if” questions should not be asked. The inadequacy of the information which the Bible Students provide should not stop persons from asking “what if” questions.
If the Bible Students are unable to answer the “what if” questions then a person will therefore have to decide whether he/she will accept what you have told them or what is written in the Bible Students’ publications, given the inadequacies.
*********
“You asked why do we have to die for sins Adam committed? Ask God that. We know that Adam sin passed onto us.”
Yes, I will certainly ask God about that, especially given that you stated:
“In the millennium it’s no longer the sin of Adam That we will die for but our own”
and given that you quoted Ezekiel 18:20 which clearly shows that children do not die for the sins of their parents:
Ezekiel 18:20
“The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.”
If we can die for our own sins and if children do not share the guilt of the parent and vice versa, then it is therefore a very simple matter:
Adam should therefore die for the sins which he committed and his descendants should only die for the sins which they commit, not for the sins which someone else (Adam) committed.
Also, it certainly isn’t justice (divine or otherwise) to condemn not only the criminal to death, but also his/her offspring who have nothing to do with his/her crime – it certainly isn’t justice if the law which governs societies today wasn’t satisfied with the death of a criminal but came after his/her offspring and executed them as well for his/her crime.
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Chris says:
May 20, 2016 at 4:50 pm
I’m going to do what you do so you can see what I mean. I’m going to assume you’re a Christian.
1. “What you are therefore saying is that persons should just accept without question, what you tell them or what is written in the Bible Students’ publications. The Bible however admonishes that we should “test all things” (1 Thessalonians 5:21), not to just gullibly accept without asking questions.”
– Where did I say anything about just accepting publications answers? Yes we test not have someone take us through a million scenarios. Where did I say you should just accept what it written in “publication.” That fact that you said you are familiar with the Divine Plan of the Ages yet asked every question about what its about shows you aren’t honest. How would you feel if i told you i did no homework but asked you for every answer just to make sure?
2. You stated “Ezekiel 18:20
“The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.”
– Where does this say this is now?
-How does a child sin on their own when the bible says we die because of Adam? 1 Corinthian 15:22
-You said a child doesn’t die because of their parents how does this refer to Adam when its talking about a child being under their parent?
-What if the child is caused to sin by their parent?
-What is the parent doesn’t know it’s a sin and their parents make them do something and it’s a sin would they bear the sin of their parent?
Ahhh scenarios? See how it feels?
My response: In the millennial age the circumstances will be ideal. We are now reading about the days of Ezekiel and not the days of Moses. When the law was initially given it was read every seven years. Those in moses day knew this but those in Ezekiels day were ignorant. In the millennial age each person will be dealt with individually. But lets talk about this in there day. In the mosaic law if one was guilt all were guilty. Sometimes God commanded the Israelites to kill every man woman a child of the household. Even though the child may not have done anything. So how in ezekiel period there would not die because of their father sin and vice versa. This is not about dying for sin the agamic death.
You stated “If we can die for our own sins and if children do not share the guilt of the parent and vice versa, then it is therefore a very simple matter:
Adam should therefore die for the sins which he committed and his descendants should only die for the sins which they commit, not for the sins which someone else (Adam) committed.”
– Even though God said we die because of Adam then why should we be punished?
-Doesnt 1 Cor 15:22 completely void you what you stated “his descendants should only die for the sins they committed” when it says “As in Adam all die.”
-Why are we to only die for our sins when the bible explicitly states that adams sin spread to all men because of Adam?
-What if Abel didn’t sin would be have been freed from sin and not died because of his own sin?
– If Abraham was considered justified and righteous then why did he die?
-Would God’s Plan be a failure if Adam and eve didn’t sin?
-If Adam were to die only for his sin only then why did everyone else die after him?
-If Adam freely sinned doesn’t that mean that his descendants didn’t freely sin?
-How do we know many wouldn’t freely sin after Adam and Eve given that they didn’t sin.
See how annoying it is. I can do one question or two but dang 4 Parts of scenarios.
What if you were teaching a class and you said “no talking at all.” and a student says:
” But what if she needs a pencil?”
“But what if she this or that”
“What if the ask me for the date”
“What if someone shoots up the school.”
And you say “We don’t need scenarios.” and they reply “Well if you can’t answer scenarios then you shouldn’t be a teacher.”
Thats a bit extreme but you get the picture.Scenarios can go on FOREVER.
Or how would you feel is someone says they’ve seen Harry Potter and ask you every question about everything thats shown in the movie? You’d be annoyed wouldn’t you.
Thats how I feel when you ask some questions that are addressed in that Divine Plan book.
Reply
Chris says:
May 20, 2016 at 4:54 pm
It’s not about being able to not answer questions but if you go the “why? why? why? why? why? why?” eventually you would have to stop
In christendom they just say “We’ll its a matter of faith.”
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Chris says:
May 25, 2016 at 3:22 pm
“Chris, it is a simple matter: If you don’t do “what if” questions/scenarios then it simply means that the information provided by the Bible Students is inadequate, it doesn’t mean that the “what if” questions should not be asked.”
Not asking the “what if” questions in no way is asking to accept any of the statements without question. No one asked you to accept without asking and no one asked you to no question. What your doing is creating scenarios that are not stated the bible and expecting me to be able to answer them with absolute certainty. Because I may not be able to provide you an answer doesn’t mean other Bible Students can’t. I know some very scholarly bible students. Then you come back with an Scenario you ask are obnoxious. You ask questions like “what will happen to homosexuals who become Christians and turn their backs on God in the millennium”. Google it I’ll wait…. did you find anything in the bible through google that pointed to an answer in the scripture? Or did you know this before? If you knew it wasn’t in there it was a question meant to be obnoxious. True teachers can back it up with the reason. Not let their students ask dumb questions knowing the teacher doesn’t know and assume they are inadequate for not having a solution. But asking questions you know aren’t in the Bible and accusing people they must not be smart or they are in error because it doesn’t back up with your views shows the questions to be obnoxious. Would it be proper to ask you what would everybody be doing in heaven and have them in the Bible doesn’t give a description of this and expecting an answer and then calling you not smart because you can’t answer would you call that fair? To ask this question even though I know it’s not in the Bible and expect an answer really shows that I would be being obnoxious!
The bible says test all things. But asking to be asking knowing good an well there’s. It an answer in no way invalidates my beliefs or assume yours are correct.
Reply
dee2 says:
May 20, 2016 at 8:24 pm
Chris,
The various questions which I have asked you, have been asked because I do have questions about what is written in the Divine Plan of the Ages.
One such question:
Will there be persons alive on the earth at the time when the anticipated future millennium begins?
Reply
dee2 says:
May 23, 2016 at 12:03 pm
Chris,
“-You said a child doesn’t die because of their parents how does this refer to Adam when its talking about a child being under their parent?………”
Didn’t Adam and Eve have children? Aren’t we all descendants of Adam and Eve according to the Bible? Aren’t Adam and Eve our parents?
*********
“-How does a child sin on their own when the bible says we die because of Adam? 1 Corinthian 15:22
– Even though God said we die because of Adam then why should we be punished?
-Doesnt 1 Cor 15:22 completely void you what you stated “his descendants should only die for the sins they committed” when it says “As in Adam all die.”
-Why are we to only die for our sins when the bible explicitly states that adams sin spread to all men because of Adam?
-What if Abel didn’t sin would be have been freed from sin and not died because of his own sin?
– If Abraham was considered justified and righteous then why did he die?
-If Adam were to die only for his sin only then why did everyone else die after him?”
According to the Bible Students’ theology, persons alive at the beginning of the Millennium will simply live on forever. They won’t die the Adamic death, but will live forever if they pass the test at end of millennium (which has nothing to do with Adam). There will therefore be some persons who will never die at all.
So some people will never have to die the Adamic death for Adamic sin although according to the Bible, it is appointed for man to die once. This certainly proves that it really wasn’t necessary, after all, for people to die for the sins committed by someone else – Adam – since for some persons it won’t be true that “As in Adam ALL die” as per 1 Corinthians 15:22. ALL persons won’t die because of Adam, according to the Bible Students’ theology. Some persons will escape “the wages of sin” – Adamic death (Romans 6:23) – and live on forever.
**********
“In the millennium it’s no longer the sin of Adam That we will die for but our own.
-How does a child sin on their own when the bible says we die because of Adam? 1 Corinthian 15:22
-Why are we to only die for our sins when the bible explicitly states that adams sin spread to all men because of Adam?
-If Adam freely sinned doesn’t that mean that his descendants didn’t freely sin?
-How do we know many wouldn’t freely sin after Adam and Eve given that they didn’t sin.”
If we don’t sin on our own then the Adam and Eve story is teaching us that we don’t have free will. The Adam and Eve story is teaching us that persons do bad things because someone else committed a sin, it has nothing to do with their own free will to choose wrongly; it is Adam’s sin that is causing us to choose wrongly, not our own free will and therefore this is why we can’t pay for our own sins but must pay for the sins committed by someone else – Adam.
*********
“- Would God’s Plan be a failure if Adam and eve didn’t sin?”
God needed Adam and Eve to sin in order for his plan to succeed?
**********
“-What if the child is caused to sin by their parent?
-What is the parent doesn’t know it’s a sin and their parents make them do something and it’s a sin would they bear the sin of their parent?”
According to current standards of morality and ethics, a person’s culpability is determined by a court of a law. This is the very point/purpose of a justice system, to deal with various scenarios in determining culpability.
There have been instances in courts of law, where persons have been acquitted of all charges/culpability despite their involvement in a crime.
**********
“My response: In the millennial age the circumstances will be ideal.”
What exactly do you mean by this?
Reply
dee2 says:
May 23, 2016 at 12:06 pm
Chris,
“You stated “Ezekiel 18:20……….Where does this say this is now”………. We are now reading about the days of Ezekiel and not the days of Moses. When the law was initially given it was read every seven years. Those in moses day knew this but those in Ezekiels day were ignorant. In the millennial age each person will be dealt with individually. But lets talk about this in there day. In the mosaic law if one was guilt all were guilty. Sometimes God commanded the Israelites to kill every man woman a child of the household. Even though the child may not have done anything. So how in ezekiel period there would not die because of their father sin and vice versa. This is not about dying for sin the agamic death.”
The book of Ezekiel was written over 2,500 years ago between 597 and 570 BCE. It documents the life of the Jewish exiles in Babylon.
– CHAPTERS 1 to 24:
Gives a narrative account of Ezekiel’s call and his commission as a prophet in about 593 BCE in a community of deported Jewish exiles in Babylon. There are oracles condemning Judah and Israel. Ezekiel preached a message of doom and judgment, he warns that Jerusalem will fall deservedly.
The prophecies are delivered in Babylon, likely between the two deportations – between 597 BCE, when the first deportation occurred and 587, 586 BCE when the fall and final destruction ofJerusalem and its Temple and second deportation occurred.
– CHAPTERS 25 to 32 contain oracles against foreign nations.
– CHAPTERS 33 to 48:
In chapter 33 we learn that a fugitive from Jerusalem brings news of the fall of Jerusalem, so it’s now about 587, 586 BCE. When Ezekiel hears this, he exchanges his message of doom for a message of hope. There are oracles of promise and hope for the future.
– Chapters 40 to 48 are visions: Ezekiel’s visions of the restoration, his vision of a rebuilt Temple and a rebuilt Jerusalem.
So Chapter 18 is addressed to the Jewish exiles in Babylon. The message was likely delivered between 597 BCE, when the first deportation occurred, and 587/586 BCE when the fall and final destruction of Jerusalem and itsTemple and the second deportation occurred. So I do not see how Ezekiel’s emphasis on /assertion of the individual responsibility for sin in chapter 18 does not pertain to the Jews of that period.
According to the Bible Students’ theology, Ezekiel 18:20 only applies to the future millennium. This is what the Bible Students subsequently believe but what did Ezekiel believe about Ezekiel 18:20, which he wrote some 2,500 years ago?
Reply
dee2 says:
May 30, 2016 at 6:48 am
***EDIT:
“The book of Ezekiel was written over 2,500 years ago between 597 and 570 BCE.”***
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_otb4.htm:
Ezekiel was a prophet from the Southern Kingdom of Judah whose ministry lasted from about 593 to 570 BCE.
Conservative Theologians believe that the book of Ezekiel was written by Ezekiel near the end of his ministry, circa 570 BCE when he was living in exile in Babylonia.
Opinion is divided among Liberal Theologians on the authorship and date of this book. Some theologians believe that Ezekiel spent his entire ministry in Palestine, and that much of the material in the book was inserted by unknown editors long after his death, perhaps about 300 BCE.
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← News Bulletin: Secret Watchtower documents once again demanded in new US court case.
The Friday Column: Leave no man behind →
Why Watchtower should be ashamed of its new homophobic child propaganda cartoon
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Posted on May 3, 2016
In the new cartoon, Sophia's mum teaches her how to be judgmental and bigoted
In the new cartoon, Sophia’s mum teaches her how to be judgmental and bigoted
It was in the summer 2012 that Jehovah’s Witnesses around the world were first introduced to Caleb and Sophia, the Governing Body’s new animated poster kids.
Their first cartoon adventures, which were distributed in DVDs at conventions and on the organization’s JW.org website, caused outrage even among many non-JWs. Watchtower’s blatant attempts to indoctrinate children using fear and paranoia created a wave of dismay that will have gone largely unnoticed by most ordinary JWs.
Since they first burst on to our screens, Caleb and Sophia have been taught by their troubled parents that Jehovah is pedantic enough to hate certain kinds of plastic action figures, that he wants kids to give their ice cream money to Watchtower, and that failing to pay sufficient attention at kingdom hall meetings can carry the death penalty.
But Watchtower apparently isn’t done with stripping JW kids of all innocence and individuality. Now the Governing Body wants them to challenge any classmates with gay or lesbian parents, and remind them that if mommy and mommy (or daddy and daddy) don’t change their ways they will lose their tickets to paradise.
It’s hard to know where to start in verbalizing one’s revulsion at the proud ignorance and homophobia on open display in this CGI monstrosity, but I will do my best.
Firstly, Sophia’s bewilderingly-orange mother manipulates her daughter with a metaphor that entirely misrepresents both homosexuality and Watchtower’s views regarding it. Sophia is asked to picture a man traveling with a bag, the contents of which trigger the airport security systems because he is carrying a prohibited item.
Homosexuality is explained as being the forbidden item the man must surrender before being allowed to travel on to his desired destination: paradise earth.
The video presents a misleading metaphor that misrepresents both homosexuality and Watchtower's teachings about what awaits homosexuals
The video presents a misleading metaphor that misrepresents both homosexuality and Watchtower’s teachings about what awaits homosexuals
Anybody remotely in tune with reality understands that homosexuality is not a “choice,” as so often portrayed by Christian fundamentalists. Straight people are born straight, and gay people are born gay. Just as it would be outrageous to ask a straight person to start being gay, it is impossible to expect a gay person to live a lie and stop being who they are. And yet this is what fanatics like Watchtower demand of them.
Secondly, the metaphor implies that if the traveler chooses against surrendering the forbidden item, the worst that will happen is that his ticket will be cancelled and he will be forced to browse the duty free before hailing a cab and making his way back to the hotel. But that is not how it works according to Jehovah’s Witness teachings.
If the metaphor were accurately and fully followed through, we would see the traveller being bundled away by security and thrown into a 1940s cattle cart, along with all others deemed undesirable by the Governing Body, before being dispatched to the great extermination camp of Armageddon.
This is not a case of “follow us, or don’t fly,” this is a case of “follow us, or die.”
But this doomsday aspect of Jehovah’s Witness theology is so repugnant to most ordinary people that Watchtower must do its best to obfuscate it wherever possible.
Even most JWs you may encounter on the street, if pressed on the matter, will deny that literally billions of people, including children, are in line for mass slaughter if their hopes and expectations come to fruition. Their continued state of subservience to their religion depends on them not thinking things through to their fullest, most grisly conclusion.
All that deception and mischaracterization aside, arguably the most repugnant and disturbing aspect of this vile cartoon is that it sets out to recruit JW children to impose the organization’s homophobic bigotry on any classmates who happen to have gay or lesbian parents.
When I was growing up as a JW I recall being indoctrinated into believing that homosexuality was to be condemned. But I don’t remember once being told to actively seek out homosexuals, or children of homosexuals, to badger them with my beliefs. All that, apparently, has now changed. Watchtower has thrown its hat in with all the other sickly Christian evangelicals whose crusade is to stamp out homosexuality wherever it surfaces.
If you want to see what the end game is of preaching hate in this way, you need only watch the documentary “God Loves Uganda,” which is currently running on Netflix. It shows how U.S. evangelicals have taken a loathsome message that has zero credibility in their homeland, and cynically flooded Uganda with it – a country whose populace have limited access to education and are therefore easy pickings for those who spew ignorance and bigotry.
And before I am accused of trying to persuade people towards atheism by making this film recommendation, I should point out that two heroes of the film are Reverend Kaoma and Bishop Senyonjo. By the end of the film, I wanted to reach into my screen and hug them both.
Despite being Christians they could plainly see the real danger posed by evangelical homophobic fanaticism, and were doing their best in the face of unspeakable brutality to urge love, respect and tolerance.
Now it seems Watchtower, having already embraced televangelism, are also now quite happy to count themselves among the small-minded homophobic hate-mongers who stain our society. And rather than lead the hateful charge themselves, the likes of Tony Morris and his Governing Body cronies are content to hide behind a newly-formed army of school-age foot-soldiers who will take the heat for them.
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Further reading…
◾Metro article
◾Independent article
◾Inquisitr article
◾The Friendly Atheist article
◾Rawstory article
◾Complex article
◾Wetpaint article
◾Pink News article
◾Wonkette article
◾Gaystarnews article
◾SDGLN.com article
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◾Newnownext article
◾The Daily Dot article
◾The Stranger article
◾The Gaily Grind article
◾Dangerous Minds article
◾TheNewCivilRightsMovement.com article
◾Progressive Secular Humanist article
◾JoeMyGod.com article
◾Watchtower’s New “Toy Story” – What Parents Need to Know
◾Sparlock a year later: Non-JWs in uproar on YouTube
◾Cough up kids! Watchtower needs your ice cream money
◾“Pay attention or die” – A disturbing glimpse of JW child indoctrination at work
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← News Bulletin: Secret Watchtower documents once again demanded in new US court case.
The Friday Column: Leave no man behind →
361 Responses to Why Watchtower should be ashamed of its new homophobic child propaganda cartoon
← Older Comments
dee2 says:
May 23, 2016 at 12:32 pm
Chris,
According to http://oyc.yale.edu/religious-studies/rlst-145/lecture-19:
In Chapter 18, Ezekiel rejects/contradicts an important Torah idea – the doctrine of collective responsibility in the operation of divine justice.
He responds to the idea of suffering for the sins of one’s ancestors by declaring that God isn’t going to work that way anymore. God will no longer punish people collectively. Each one will be judged individually. Only the sinner will be punished and that’s a major departure from the contemporary Torah principle of collective or intergenerational punishment which is found most famously in the Second Commandment, the declaration that God punishes children for the sins of their fathers unto the fourth generation (Exodus 34:6,7).
The Book of Chronicles, which is a rewrite of the historical narrative in the Book of Kings, rewrites that material in a manner that never explains a catastrophe on the basis of guilt incurred by someone other than the one experiencing the catastrophe. In other words, it rejects the Torah device of delayed punishment. It changes the narrative account so that no one suffers for a crime committed by someone else. It isn’t the sin of an earlier generation that’s finally visited upon a grandson or a king of a later generation.
So it seems that after 586 BCE, some accepted the idea that the nation was suffering because of the accumulated guilt of previous generations. But for others like Ezekiel, the idea of accumulated guilt and intergenerational punishment seemed to lose some of its explanatory power, perhaps because the destruction and the exile seemed devastatingly severe punishments that didn’t fit the crimes.
Reply
dee2 says:
May 23, 2016 at 12:35 pm
Chris,
“Scenarios can go on FOREVER.”
In the case of your teacher example, the teacher had an answer for all of the scenarios generated: there should be no talking at all. As to whether or not this is the best or most reasonable answer to the scenarios generated, that’s another matter.
In the case of the Bible Students, if you don’t have the answer to the various questions which someone may ask then you should let the person know this, instead of saying you don’t do scenarios. If the person is smart enough, they should realize that your saying that you don’t do scenarios simply means that you don’t know the answer.
As I stated before, given the inadequacy of the information provided by the Bible Students, a person will then have to decide on what basis they will accept what the Bible Students have told them/what is written in the their publications.
Reply
Chris says:
May 25, 2016 at 8:24 am
Dee: lets start from the beginning. Ask me 1 question. Not 25 scenarios. They become endless task. Then to take each response and ask 10 more questions is exhausting. Just ask me one at a time. But for the love of God email me. I HATE typing on here. If it’s not on in email I will not respond.Johnsc11@aol.com
Reply
Chris says:
May 25, 2016 at 8:49 am
I haven’t been on this site for a few days because the comments are getting long. and sweetie it has nothing to do with not knowing the answer. For exmple my ad hoc about not knowing that “coming to life” means Resurrection. It has to do with interpretation because the Greek ford for resurrection is not used here. I know it doesn’t have to be but how else would all the dead at John 5:28,29 who all come out of the graves come to life at the end of the 1000 years if they haven’t been resurrected? Sometimes, yes I do not know what is in as the bible calls it “Ages to come” do you? If not why not? How many ages are there? What happens if someone sins in this age to come? But since they are like Adam and still technically have free will what will God do to them if they sin and they won’t die ever? See how each of these questions are tedious in that you know they are not discussed in the Bible? So why ask them? So you can pull in some history from Ezekiel. Notice how the book of Ezekiel ends in Restoration after sin and death? Take a close look. Its prophetic in its theme. So when I say that it has a millennial application then it fits. You brought in a general history.Great you know more than I do about it. You do know that everything in the Law is a type or picture of a future. So as it is in many stories. The story of Abraham and his experiences are prophetic pictures. When he sent his servant to find a bride for his son to inherit all things this was a picture of God sending the holy spirit to find a bride for his son to inherit all things. Sure we can look at it as general history as you have done. For example, the volume of the Ark of the Covenant (1.5 x 1.5 x 2.5 cubits = 5.625) divided into the volume of the INNER most holy yields (9 x 9 x 10 = 810) = 144 multiplied by the measurements of the outer measurements (10 x 10 x 10 ) yields 144,000. But it we just want to look at the General history of it and what led them to it we would totally miss the spiritual application. What you’ve done it looked at the dry history of it. However, you have neglected to see the spiritual applications.Notice how it goes into the restoration at the end? In a big general picture the whole picture in Ezekiel is the restoration at the end. Do I know everything? Of course not. But the scenarios are so endless that I would like to keep it to a question or two a response. I get over whelmed. Also don’t take this as a view of all Bible Student. We have a brother whom I adore and this man know more than I could ever wish to know. He is a Biblical scholar and knows Greek and Hebrew. I’m not as smart as he is. Also, as for your allegations about believing in what our publications teach you do realize that we don’t use publications like the JW’s do? We read the bible and the Bible alone. Yes we have some book. I personally reject the second volume of the Studies all together.
You must have been a writer because you sure write a lot. I generally don’t have the patience. 🙂
Reply
Chris says:
May 25, 2016 at 8:50 am
I haven’t been on this site for a few days because the comments are getting long. and sweetie it has nothing to do with not knowing the answer. For exmple my ad hoc about not knowing that “coming to life” means Resurrection. It has to do with interpretation because the Greek ford for resurrection is not used here. I know it doesn’t have to be but how else would all the dead at John 5:28,29 who all come out of the graves come to life at the end of the 1000 years if they haven’t been resurrected? Sometimes, yes I do not know what is in as the bible calls it “Ages to come” do you? If not why not? How many ages are there? What happens if someone sins in this age to come? But since they are like Adam and still technically have free will what will God do to them if they sin and they won’t die ever? See how each of these questions are tedious in that you know they are not discussed in the Bible? So why ask them? So you can pull in some history from Ezekiel. Notice how the book of Ezekiel ends in Restoration after sin and death? Take a close look. Its prophetic in its theme. So when I say that it has a millennial application then it fits. You brought in a general history.Great you know more than I do about it. You do know that everything in the Law is a type or picture of a future. So as it is in many stories. The story of Abraham and his experiences are prophetic pictures. When he sent his servant to find a bride for his son to inherit all things this was a picture of God sending the holy spirit to find a bride for his son to inherit all things. Sure we can look at it as general history as you have done. For example, the volume of the Ark of the Covenant (1.5 x 1.5 x 2.5 cubits = 5.625) divided into the volume of the INNER most holy yields (9 x 9 x 10 = 810) = 144 multiplied by the measurements of the outer measurements (10 x 10 x 10 ) yields 144,000. But it we just want to look at the General history of it and what led them to it we would totally miss the spiritual application. What you’ve done it looked at the dry history of it. However, you have neglected to see the spiritual applications.Notice how it goes into the restoration at the end? In a big general picture the whole picture in Ezekiel is the restoration at the end. Do I know everything? Of course not. But the scenarios are so endless that I would like to keep it to a question or two a response. I get over whelmed. Also don’t take this as a view of all Bible Student. We have a brother whom I adore and this man know more than I could ever wish to know. He is a Biblical scholar and knows Greek and Hebrew. I’m not as smart as he is. Also, as for your allegations about believing in what our publications teach you do realize that we don’t use publications like the JW’s do? We read the bible and the Bible alone. Yes we have some book. I personally reject the second volume of the Studies all together.
You must have been a writer because you sure write a lot. I generally don’t have the patience. 🙁
Reply
Chris says:
May 25, 2016 at 9:52 am
Also Dee. What is your theological viewpoint?
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Chris says:
May 25, 2016 at 10:36 am
Hey Dee,
As I’ve said before and have not been following, I won’t be back on the site. Please email me I would like to continue this conversation. 🙂
Reply
dee2 says:
May 27, 2016 at 11:14 am
Chris,
***”my ad hoc about not knowing that “coming to life” means Resurrection. It has to do with interpretation because the Greek ford for resurrection is not used here”
As I have stated before, even if “COMING TO LIFE” should mean something else in Revelation 20:5 as you have claimed – it “doesn’t mean “resurrection”, it means being brought into everlasting life condition”;
– there is still nowhere in the Bible which states that there is a resurrection of anyone else at the beginning of the millennium apart from those who “came to life and (who) will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years” (Revelation 20:4 – 6).
– there is still nowhere in the Bible which states that there will be a resurrection of persons during the millennium.
– what you are trying to say is that Revelation 20 does not indicate that there is a resurrection at the END of the millennium when in fact this is the case. According to Revelation 20, there is a resurrection at the BEGINNING of the millennium and a resurrection at the END of the millennium; there is no resurrection DURING the millennium.
>>>>>>>>>
***”how else would all the dead at John 5:28, 29 who all come out of the graves come to life at the end of the 1000 years if they haven’t been resurrected?”
In John 5:28, 29, Jesus didn’t say anything about anyone being resurrected who then lives for a 1000 years BEFORE they “come to life” which, according to your interpretation, means
“being brought into everlasting life condition”.
According to Jesus’ words at John 5: 28, 29, at the point when persons are resurrected, it is at that point that they either live because they have done what is good or are condemned because they have done what is evil. All of this is based on what they did before they died. Jesus didn’t say anything about persons being resurrected who then live for 1000 years BEFORE they know if they are going to live forever or die.
When Revelation 20:5 says the rest of the dead didn’t come to life until the 1000 years were ended, it is referring to the resurrection that takes place at the end of the millennium which is described in the subsequent verses in Revelation 20: 11-15.
When these persons are resurrected not all of them will live forever or be “brought into everlasting life condition” as per your interpretation.
According to Revelation 20: 11-15 when these persons are resurrected at the end of the millennium, at that point, either a person’s name will be found in the book of life or it won’t be found in the book of life. Those whose names are found in the book of life are the ones who will be “brought into everlasting life condition”.
What your interpretation is saying, is that people will have to live for a while first (1000 years) before knowing whether or not they are going to live forever or die. But that is not what Revelation 20 or John 5:28, 29 are saying. There is no living for 1000 years BEFORE knowing what your fate will be.
Reply
dee2 says:
May 27, 2016 at 2:47 pm
Chris,
To further explain:
According to Revelation 20:4-6 if you are not a part of the first resurrection, then you are a part of “the rest of the dead”. If you interpret the “coming to life” of “the rest of the dead” at the end of the millennium to mean “being brought into everlasting life condition”, then your interpretation is saying that the outcome for ALL of “the rest of the dead” is that they will ALL receive everlasting life upon being resurrected. Is this the case? Will ALL of “the rest of the dead” receive everlasting life upon being resurrected?
According to Revelation 20: 11-15 when ALL of the rest of the dead are resurrected at the end of the millennium, at that point, either a person’s name will be found in the book of life or it won’t be found in the book of life. Those whose names are found in the book of life are the ones who will be “brought into everlasting life condition” or receive everlasting life, so not ALL of the rest of the dead will receive everlasting life as your interpretation asserts. If ALL of “the rest of the dead” were to be “brought into everlasting life condition” or receive everlasting life according to your interpretation, then it won’t be true that some of the rest of the dead will experience the second death, according to Revelation 20: 11-15.
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dee2 says:
May 27, 2016 at 11:18 am
Chris,
***”Sometimes, yes I do not know what is in as the bible calls it “Ages to come” do you? If not why not? How many ages are there?”
I have personally rejected Bible prophecies regarding the “Age to come” or the millennium to come. Some of the reasons for my rejection are as follows:
As a work of prophecy, of course, Revelation is wholly and self-evidently wrong. “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until you judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” demands the biblical author, quoting the souls of the dead martyrs, and he answers his own question by attributing an unambiguous promise to Jesus Christ: “Behold, I am coming SOON” (Revelation 6:10-11, 3:11).
The author of Revelation set down his vision in 96 CE of “things which must SHORTLY come to pass.” (Rev. 1:1, KJV) He turned out to be dead wrong, the world is still here almost 2000 years later. Revelation is the history of the end of the world and the history of a world that refuses to end.
“Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is NEAR……I am coming SOON…….Surely I am coming SOON” (Revelation 22:10, 12, 20). Those words were written nearly two thousand years ago.
The author of Revelation clearly anticipated the end of the world within a few years of the writing of the book. He writes in the first chapter about “things which must SHORTLY come to pass” and “the time is AT HAND.” Of course, the author was wrong. The end of the world never happened in the late first or early second century CE.
Revelation 1:3:
“Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the TIME IS NEAR.”
Surely the greatest of all the ironies in the writer of Revelation’s life and work is the simple and unavoidable fact that the things he predicted in the book of Revelation did not come to pass quickly or, for that matter, at all. The writer of Revelation himself would have been shocked and heartbroken to know that we are all still here to read what he wrote almost two thousand years ago.
>>>>>>>>>
***”What happens if someone sins in this age to come? But since they are like Adam and still technically have free will what will God do to them if they sin and they won’t die ever?”
I’m not quite sure what you ate trying to say here, but as I stated before, if we don’t sin on our own then the Adam and Eve story is teaching us that we don’t have free will. The Adam and Eve story is teaching us that persons do bad things because someone else committed a sin, it has nothing to do with their own free will to choose wrongly; it is Adam’s sin that is causing us to choose wrongly, not our own free will and therefore this is why we can’t pay for our own sins but must pay for the sins committed by someone else – Adam.
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Chris says:
May 27, 2016 at 3:39 pm
You do know that “the rest of the dead did not come to life” is a spurious text correct. So all of
Your “analysis”Is incorrect.
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Chris says:
May 27, 2016 at 3:42 pm
Actually the story is not saying we don’t have free will. You’re delving into Calvinism here. You’re choosing not go murder someone right now correct? Actions are always chosen.
“Revelation 1:3:
“Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the TIME IS NEAR.”
What determines near? A 1000 years is but a day to God. So if God is telling him these things then from God perspective it’s is at hand.
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dee2 says:
May 30, 2016 at 6:51 am
***EDIT:
“The author of Revelation set down his vision in 96 CE”***
The book of Revelation was written in 95 CE according to:http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_ntb5e.htm
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dee2 says:
May 27, 2016 at 11:23 am
Chris,
***”Notice how the book of Ezekiel ends in Restoration after sin and death? Take a close look. Its prophetic in its theme. So when I say that it has a millennial application then it fits………What you’ve done it looked at the dry history of it. However, you have neglected to see the spiritual applications.”
I have no reason to believe that the book of Ezekiel is nothing more than a record of the Jews’ history while they were in exile in Babylon. If you feel that the book of Ezekiel contains prophecies about the future that is your choice. I have personally rejected the book of Ezekiel as a book of reliable prophecies for the following reasons:
According to Ezekiel chapter 4, Ezekiel engages in various dramatic signs — prophetic signs or actions — to convey his message. He binds himself in ropes; he lies on his left side 390 days to symbolize the 390 years of exile of Israel, and then he lies on his right side for 40 days to symbolize the length of Judah’s captivity, which he says will be 40 years. Neither of these terms of captivity turned out to be correct.
Possibly the most pessimistic of the Old Testament prophets, Ezekiel proclaimed impending doom upon everyone from Judah itself to the enemy nations surrounding it. The failure of his prophecies to materialize as he predicted makes a compelling argument against the Bible inerrancy doctrine. In one of his doom’s-day prophecies, Egypt was to experience forty years of utter desolation:
Therefore, thus says Yahweh God: “Surely I will bring a sword upon you and cut off from you man and beast. And the land of Egypt shall become desolate and waste; then they will know that I am Yahweh, because he said, `The River is mine, and I have made it.’ Indeed, therefore, I am against you and against your rivers, and I will make the land of Egypt utterly waste and desolate, from Migdol to Syene, as far as the border of Ethiopia.Neither foot of man shall pass through it nor foot of beast pass through it, and it shall be uninhabited forty years. I will make the land of Egypt desolate in the midst of the countries that are desolate; and among the cities that are laid waste, her cities shall be desolate forty years; and I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations and disperse them through the countries” (29:8-14).
Talk about extravagant rhetoric, we certainly have it in this passage. No such desolation has ever happened to Egypt; there never has been a time in recorded history when Egypt was not inhabited by man or beast for forty years, when its cities were laid waste and desolate, when its people were all dispersed to foreign lands, etc. Bible defenders, of course, resort quickly to figurative and future applications, but their strategy just won’t work. Future fulfillments are excluded by patently clear references that Ezekiel made to contemporary characters who were to figure in the fulfillment: “Son of man, set your face against Pharaoh king of Egypt, and prophesy against him” (29:2). Although Egypt still survives as a nation, its rule by pharaohs ended long ago. Furthermore, Ezekiel identified Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, as the instrument Yahweh would use to bring about Egypt’s desolation: “Therefore thus says Yahweh God: `Surely I will give the land of Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon; he shall take away her wealth, carry off her spoil, and remove her pillage, and that will be the wages for his army'” (29:19). Clearly, then, Ezekiel had in mind a contemporary fulfillment of this prediction. As for spiritual or figurative explanations of the prophecy, just what events in Egyptian history were so catastrophic in the days of Nebuchadnezzar and the pharaohs that they could justifiably be considered a figurative desolation of forty years? Unless bibliolaters can identify such a catastrophe, their figurative interpretations must be regarded as just more attempts to sweep aside another embarrassing prophecy failure.
http://infidels.org/library/modern/farrell_till/prophecy.html
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dee2 says:
May 27, 2016 at 11:26 am
Chris,
Ezekiel just as rashly predicted the utter destruction of Tyre, a prediction whose failure has become even more embarrassing to bibliolaters than his doom’s-day prophecy against Egypt:
Therefore thus says Yahweh God: “Behold, I am against you, O Tyre, and will cause many nations to come up against you, as the sea causes its waves to come up. And they shall destroy the walls of Tyre and break down her towers; I will also scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock. It shall be a place for spreading nets in the midst of the sea, for I have spoken,” says Yahweh God; “it shall become plunder for the nations. Also her daughtervillageswhich are in the fields shall be slain by the sword. Then they shall know that I am Yahweh.”
For thus says Yahweh God: “Behold, I will bring against Tyre from the north Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses, with chariots, and with horsemen, and an army with many people. He will slay with the sword your daughtervillagesin the fields; he will heap up a siege mound against you, build a wall against you, and raise a defense against you. He will direct his battering rams against your walls, and with his axes he will break down your towers. Because of the abundance of his horses, their dust will cover you; your walls will shake at the noise of the horsemen, the wagons, and the chariots, when he enters your gates, as men enter a city that has been breached. With the hooves of his horses he will trample all your streets; he will slay your people by the sword, and your strong pillars will fall to the ground. They will plunder your riches and pillage your merchandise; they will break down your walls and destroy your pleasant houses; they will lay your stones, your timber, and your soil in the midst of the water. I will put an end to the sound of your songs, and the sound of your harps shall be heard no more. I will make you like the top of a rock; you shall be a place for spreading nets,you shall never be rebuilt, for I Yahweh have spoken,” says Yahweh God (26:3-14).
Ezekiel’s tirade against Tyre continued through three chapters. His prediction was that the city’s destruction would be complete and permanent: “The merchants among the peoples will hiss at you; you will become a horror, and be no more forever” (27:36). So sure was he of Tyre’s eternal destruction that he repeated it: “All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you: you have become a horror, and shall be no more forever” (28:19).
That this prophecy was never fulfilled can be verified with no more difficulty than a trip to the public library. Ezekiel prophesied that Nebuchadnezzar would destroy Tyre and that “you (Tyre) shall never be rebuilt” (26:14) and “shall be no more, though you are sought for, you will never be found again” (26:21). History, however, records the fact that Nebuchadnezzar not only didn’t destroy Tyre, he didn’t even capture it. The New Encyclopedia Britannica(Micropedia, Vol. 10, 1978) said this in reviewing the long history of Tyre:
…. and in 585-573 (B.C.) it successfully withstood a prolonged siege by the Babylonian king Nebuchadrezzar II (p. 223).
In its summation of this same period of Tyrian history, The Encyclopedia Americana (Vol. 27, 1984) says:
The neo-Babylonian conqueror, Nebuchadnezzar II, subjected the island to a 13-year siege (585-572) without success (p. 331, emphasis added).
Nebuchadnezzar did capture the mainland suburb of Tyre, but he never succeeded in taking the island part, which was the seat of Tyrian grandeur. That being so, it could hardly be said that Nebuchadnezzar wreaked the total havoc on Tyre that Ezekiel vituperatively predicted in the passages cited.
http://infidels.org/library/modern/farrell_till/prophecy.html
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dee2 says:
May 27, 2016 at 11:29 am
Chris,
Even Ezekiel himself admitted the failure of this prophecy. Three chapters after predicting the everlasting destruction of Tyre, Ezekiel, as he often did in his prophecies, dated a long tirade against Egypt: “And it came to pass in the twenty-seventh year, in the first month, on the first day of the month, that the word of Yahweh came to me…” (29:17). There is no general agreement on the interpretation of Ezekiel’s dating system, but at least we can use it to determine when one prophecy was made with reference to another. For example, his prophecy against Tyre was made in “the eleventh year, on the first day of the month,” (26:1). If, then, the prophecy against Egypt in chapter 29 was made in the 27th year (whatever that year was), this would mean that sixteen years separated the prophecy against Tyre in chapter 26 and the one against Egypt in chapter 29. Ezekiel’s doom’s-day prophecies against the nations surrounding Judah were apparently motivated by their delight in the fall of Jerusalem, which occurred in 587 B. C., because he often mentioned this as the reason why Yahweh was pronouncing judgment against them (25:3-4, 6, 8; 26:2). Obviously, then, these doom’s-day prophecies had to have been made after the fall of Jerusalem in 587 B. C., so even if Ezekiel’s prediction of Tyre’s destruction was made as quickly as the day after the fall of Jerusalem, his prophecy against Egypt, which (as noted above) came 16 years later, could not have been made before 571 B. C. By then, Nebuchadnezzar’s siege of Tyre, which lasted from 585-572 B. C., was over, and Ezekiel would have known that his prediction had failed.
His prophecy against Egypt did show a clear awareness that he had botched his prediction that Nebuchadnezzar would decimate Tyre:
“Son of man, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon caused his army to labor strenuously against Tyre; every head was made bald, and every shoulder rubbed raw;yet neither he nor his army received wages from Tyre, for the labor which they expended on it. Therefore thus says Yahweh God: `Surely I will give the land of Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon; he shall take away her wealth, carry off her spoil, and remove her pillage; and that will be the wages for his army” (29:18-19).
This statement referred to Nebuchadnezzar’s siege of Tyre as a completed act, which of course by this time it would have been (as the chronological analysis above clearly proves). That being true, it necessarily follows that the book of Ezekiel could not have been written, at least not in its entirety, until after the siege of Tyre was over. To say the least, then, serious questions must be raised about Ezekiel’s credentials as a bona fide prophet. A prophet who completed his book after the facts he had prophesied about! What kind of prophet was that? And, in Ezekiel’s case, we have a prophet who apparently didn’t even have the good judgment to go back and revise his predictions after unfolding events had proven them wrong. Are we supposed to see this as compelling evidence that the Bible was inspired of God?
Furthermore, Ezekiel’s prophecy against Egypt frankly admitted Nebuchadnezzar’s failure to destroy Tyre. It plainly said that Nebuchadnezzar and his army “had no wages” for their “labor” against Tyre. As a result, Yahweh, according to this prophecy, had decided to award Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar as payment for his services: “Therefore thus says the Sovereign Yahweh: Behold, I will give the land of Egypt to Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon; and he shall carry off her multitude, and take her plunder, and take her prey: and that will be the wages for his army” (29:19). Strangely enough, Ezekiel was admitting in this statement that his prophecy against Tyre had failed, for if Nebuchadnezzar had taken the island part of the city, he surely would have carried off its multitude, taken its plunder, and taken its prey, and these would have been his “wages.” If one wonders why a man claiming divinely endowed prophetic powers would make a prediction and then three chapters later admit that his prediction had failed, I can only say what I said before: stranger things than this can be found in the Bible.
http://infidels.org/library/modern/farrell_till/prophecy.html
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dee2 says:
May 27, 2016 at 11:34 am
Chris,
Some bibliolaters have tried to mitigate the failure of Ezekiel’s Tyre prophecy by extending its scope beyond Nebuchadnezzar to Alexander the Great, who did succeed in capturing the island part of Tyre in 332 B.C. But this ploy won’t work. Ezekiel clearly identified Nebuchadnezzar as the avenging instrument that Yahweh would use to bring about a total, everlasting destruction of Tyre. If Alexander the Great was to be a part of the scenario, why didn’t Ezekiel name him too? After all, Ezekiel was a prophet, and prophets can see into the future, can’t they? Inerrantists delight in pointing to 1 Kings 13:2 where a prophet allegedly mentioned Josiah by name almost 300 years before he was born and to Isaiah’s alleged references to Cyrus by name over 100 years before he was born, so if Ezekiel had meant for his Tyre prophecy to include Alexander the Great as Yahweh’s instrument of destruction, why didn’t he refer to him by name? If other “prophets of God” could pull off amazing feats like these, why couldn’t Ezekiel? Why would the predictive talents of one inspired prophet of God have been so consummately inferior to others’?
Even if bibliolaters could somehow prove that Ezekiel had intended Alexander the Great to be a part of the prophecy against Tyre, they would still have to explain why the complete and everlasting destruction of the city did not happen as predicted. Most assuredly, nothing comparable to the scope of destruction predicted occurred at the hands of Nebuchadnezzar, and although Alexander the Great did succeed in capturing the island part of the city, Tyre by no means ceased to exist after this conquest. In The History of Tyre, Wallace B. Fleming said this of the city’s defeat by Alexander:
Alexander then left the city which was half burnt, ruined, and almost depopulated. The blackened forms of two thousand crucified soldiers bore ghastly witness to the completeness of the conquest. The siege had lasted from the middle of January till the middle of July, 332 B.C. The city did not lie in ruins long. Colonists were imported and citizens who had escaped returned. The energy of these with the advantage of the site, in a few years raised the city to wealth and leadership again (Columbia University Press: New York, 1915, p. 64, emphasis added).
So Ezekiel predicted that Tyre would “be no more forever,” but, to the embarrassment of Bible inerrantists, it just didn’t happen that way. Tyre existed after Ezekiel in the days of Jesus, who “withdrew into the parts of Tyre and Sidon” at one time during his personal ministry (Matt. 15:21), and it existed in the time of the Apostle Paul, who, returning from one of his missionary journeys, stopped there, found disciples, and tarried with them seven days (Acts 21:3). In fact, Tyre still exists today, as anyone able to read a map can verify. This obvious failure of a highly touted Old Testament prophet is just one more nail in the coffin of the Bible inerrancy doctrine.
http://infidels.org/library/modern/farrell_till/prophecy.html
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Chris says:
May 27, 2016 at 4:03 pm
You know know I thought you were just smart. But most of your word in these paragraphs are not research. They are click and paste off that site. Wow. No use arguing with that. Now I can finally go in peace. Have a nice life.
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dee2 says:
May 27, 2016 at 11:38 am
Chris,
***”What is your theological viewpoint?”
My theological viewpoint is to question and critically and rationally analyze all JW teachings and the teachings of other religions.
Regards.
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Chris says:
May 27, 2016 at 2:21 pm
“I have no reason to believe that the book of Ezekiel is nothing more than a record of the Jews’ history while they were in exile in Babylon.”
Totally your opinion. And a biased one at that. Im sure that the belief in Abiogenesis with no confirmation that a primordial soup exists other than an experiment that still needed to be done by man (intelligence) shows lack of understanding in the science community but it is still believed. I see the Book as highly prophetic. For example, many think when they have a superficial reading of the Bible that it shall be plain. But we see a recurring theme and hidden from the wise and given to the meek. For example, the story of Abraham. Abraham was married to Sarah who couldn’t bare children. After this Abraham had relations with Hagar whose name means Sinai in Arabic. After her child was born (Ishmael) there was a promise to Sarah that she would have a child. After his birth Ishmael and Hagar both began to persecute Isaac and Sarah. Abraham then cast off the Ishmael and Hagar and sent them into the wilderness. After that Isaac became firstborn. Hagar was sent into the wilderness but YHWH still made provisions for them. This whole story is a prophetic of the nation of Israel being cast off and Jesus and the Bride being made firstborn. The nation of Israel persecuted Jesus as Hagar and Ishmael did Sarah and Isaac. Hagar was the bonds woman whose name means “Sinai” in Arabic. This is where the law was made with the Israelites. She was the servant of the family. This whole story is prophetic. Most Christians don’t even know this. They see it as just a story with Abraham. The fact that the nation of Israel represented Hagar and Isaac were still taken care of after casting them off corresponds to Israel being cast off in the time of Christ and being restored in May 14, 1948 just as bible prophesy has said would come true. I don’t think anyone can state that the prophesy and expectations of the restoration of Israel is not fulfilled in 1948. Many had this expectation long time before Israel was restored. Or how when Abraham went to sacrifice his son Isaac. Isaac carried the wood on his back to his sacrifice. This is a prophetic picture of Jesus carrying the wood on his back to his sacrifice. This shows that the books most plain stories can have prophetic significance. So whether you want to believe it or not is up to you.
Your third and fourth paragraphs of your first post shows your lack of understanding. When the Bible shows the word “beast” many times it’s a meaning of government or system. But you assume that it means literal animals.
Have you ever tried looking at the pro material for this rather than looking for information that matches your current view. On the outset of your answers you seem intelligent but we can see the lack of your understanding. If you researched further this is found in the scriptures you might see something that might shake your view. Here’s a reference exactly about what you state.http://www.aboutbibleprophecy.com/tyre.htm
https://500questions.wordpress.com/2013/02/24/43-did-the-bible-accurately-predict-the-future-of-tyre-ezekiel-26/
http://apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=13&article=1790
If you only want to research what anti-Christian views then that’s what you’ll find. But if you don’t have any theological views then there’s no reason to continue this conversation. But you can’t take hints that when people don’t want to talk about it anymore you write back with ignorant information that you read offline that makes you appear smart when you don’t know deep meanings. I used to hate Christianity and would believe any information that would be in opposition to such. I read may books and had coherent arguments. Just remember that a fool can ask more questions in an hour than a wise man can answer in a day. If you feel the need to respond with the last response to make you look like you are the best then so be it. Have a great weekend. Over and out.
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dee2 says:
May 30, 2016 at 7:02 am
Chris,
***”You do know that “the rest of the dead did not come to life” is a spurious text correct. So all of
Your “analysis” Is incorrect.”
If this is the case then why did you state the following on May 19, 2016 at 11:45 pm:
“No. Whe it says “did not come to life” doesn’t mean “ressurection”. It means being brought into everlasting life condition. Because their life depends on how the acted in the millennium.”
Why have the Bible Students given a spurious text an interpretation thereby accepting it as a part of their theology?
Also, on May 15, 2016 at 7:14 pm you stated:
“And no not all those who are resurrected resist homosexuality. Remember some will be misled yet again when Satan is let out at the end of the millennial Age.”
So, on the one hand your theology is saying that ALL of “the rest of the dead” will “be brought into everlasting condition” but on the other hand your theology is also saying that “some will be misled yet again when Satan is let out at the end of the millennial Age.” So clearly, not ALL of “the rest of the dead” are “brought into everlasting condition” as you stated.
Whereas there is no where in the Bible which states that persons will have to wait for a 1000 years after being resurrected to know what their fate is, the Bible does show that there is a final personal judgment when Jesus would come with his angels at the end of the world to reward every person according to their works, on the basis of what each individual did in his/her lifetime.
Matthew 16:27-28:
“For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”
That a final judgment in which all people will be rewarded according to their works will occur when Jesus comes again is a well defined New Testament doctrine. The apostle Paul said, “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad” (2 Corinthians 5:10). The book of Revelation closed with a warning of this final judgment: “Behold, I come quickly and my reward is with me, to render to each man according to his works” (Revelation 22:10). In his interpretation of the parable of the tares, Jesus was very clear in saying to his disciples that the final judgment would take place at the end of the world.
Matthew 13:37-43:
“He that sows the good seed is the Son of Man; and the field is the world, and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; and the enemy that sowed them is the devil: and the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are angels. As therefore the tares are gathered up and burned with fire; so shall it be in the end of the world. The Son of Man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that cause stumbling, and them that do iniquity, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He that has ears, let him hear”.
Other scriptures could be cited, but these are sufficient to show that the New Testament teaches that the second coming of Jesus will signal the end of the world, at which time there will be a final, personal judgment on the basis of what each individual did in his/her lifetime.
_________
***”Actually the story is not saying we don’t have free will. You’re delving into Calvinism here. You’re choosing not go murder someone right now correct? Actions are always chosen.”
If this is the case, then why do the Bible Students teach that we are all born in a world of pain and death because someone else (Adam and Eve) committed a sin. Your religion teaches that because Adam and Eve sinned, their descendants inherited sin and imperfection from them which is why humans do bad things, and why there is evil in the world. If it wasn’t for Adam and Eve’s sin, there would be no evil in the world. If it is because of Adam and Eve why we do bad things, then how can it be said that we act out of our own free will? How can it be said that free will is the cause of the suffering of mankind when the Bible Students teach that humans do bad things because of inherited sin and imperfection from Adam and Eve? Either we do bad things because of free will or we do bad things because of the sin which Adam and Eve committed. What is the point of God setting up a future millennium, according to your theology, to free/cleanse mankind from the effects of Adamic sin and imperfection if this inherited sin and imperfection is not the reason why humans do bad things? If it is because of free will why humans do bad things then why the need to put in place a millennium to free/cleanse mankind from the effects of Adamic sin and imperfection?
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dee2 says:
May 30, 2016 at 7:15 am
Chris,
***“Revelation 1:3:
“Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the TIME IS NEAR.”
What determines near? A 1000 years is but a day to God. So if God is telling him these things then from God perspective it’s is at hand.”
If someone said to you:
– This is a revelation of “things which must SHORTLY come to pass.” (Revelation 1:1)
– “the TIME IS NEAR”
– “I am coming SOON” (Revelation 3:11)
– “…The TIME IS NEAR……I am coming SOON…….Surely I am coming SOON” (Revelation 22:10, 12, 20)
and you take this to mean almost 2000 years and counting that certainly is your choice to which you are entitled.
We are supposed to believe that God inspired certain writers to tell people that Jesus would come again someday, but he chose to do so in language that had meaning only to an omniscient, omnipotent deity. “Soon” didn’t mean “soon,” and “at hand” didn’t mean “at hand,” as humans understand these terms, but as God understands them. Such an explanation makes God a devious entity who chose to reveal important information in sort of a secret code that would have meaning only to an omniscient, omnipotent deity. Even though God revealed the Bible for human benefit, he nevertheless inspired it in some sort of secret code that would be understood only by him.
As far as I can see, Jesus said he was coming soon but then did not come.
John of Patmos says his “Revelation” is addressed to “seven churches in Asia” of things that must “soon take place” . . . “for the time is near.” (1:1-4) John of Patmos predictions are specifically addressed to the seven churches in Asia. These predicted events did not happen to those seven churches “soon,” in the near time.
________
Before one takes the prophecies in the book of Revelation to mean anything, it is worthwhile noting that there was much controversy over the acceptance of this book into the official Bible cannon:
http://www.christian-community.org/library/revelheresy.html:
“We should remember that “Revelation” was doubted in Eastern Christianity and not generally accepted into the New Testament until AD 508. Some ancient Christian branches still do not include it in their Bibles.”
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_ntb5d.htm:
During the 1st century CE, Judaism was composed of about 24 separate religious groups. Some of these were the Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes, various groups within the Christian movement, followers of John the Baptist, etc. One which had a strong political agenda was the Zealot party. The Zealots taught that a military-political Messiah would soon appear, as prophesized in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament). He would conquer the world, and rule for a thousand years from Jerusalem.
This concept of millennialism was promoted during the second century CE, by Montanus, a recent convert to Christianity. He prophesized that the New Jerusalem would shortly descend out of the clouds and land in a town called Phrygia. He set a date for the event, thus becoming one of the first Christians to predict when the end of the world would occur. His teachings were rejected by the rest of the Church. At the Synod of Iconium in 230 CE all baptisms performed by the Montanus sect were declared invalid. The Council of Constantinople in 380 CE went further, and declared millennialism to be a heresy.
Because millennialists had traditionally used Revelation as the main source of their teachings, “the Church was slow to accept Revelation as scripture.”
Origen, an early Christian theologian, used the term antilegomena to describe those books — including Hebrews, James 2 Peter, 2 John, 3 John and Revelation — whose inclusion in the official canon of the Bible was actively disputed. In the fourth century CE, when the canon of the Bible was assembled from among the approximately 50 gospels and hundreds of epistles then in use by the Christian movement, Revelation was only reluctantly included. “To this day, Orthodox churches do not use Revelation for scripture readings during worship.”
Martin Luther downgraded the significance of Revelation. It portrays God as inflicting horrendous punishments on humanity — a concept that is today sometimes called “Ambush Theology.” Luther concluded that he could not readily harmonize the God described in Revelation with the God to whom Jesus prayed to as Abba. When Luther translated the Bible into the German language, he downgraded Revelation by relegating it to an appendix.
Reply
dee2 says:
May 30, 2016 at 7:48 am
http://www.holybooks.info/revelation.html:
“The Church Father Eusebius warned us that there were a number of previous writers who were concerned that Revelations was written by a heretic called Cerinthus, and he wrote the Book of Revelation in order to promulgate illegitimate ideas about a 1,000 years of paradise here on Earth. The disputes were long-lasting, and the Book of Revelation was often rejected from Bibles as a result of its dubious legitimacy:
“[The Book of Revelation has] been many times rejected from the sacred canon. It did not appear in the Syriac Testament as late as 1562. Neither did Luther, the great reformer of the sixteenth century, nor his coworker, Erasmus, respect it, Luther declaring that for his part he would as soon it had not been written; Calvin, also, had small regard for it. The first collection of the New Testament canon, decided upon by the Council of Laodicea (A. D. 364), omitted the entire book from its list of sacred works; Jerome said that some Greek churches would not receive it. The celebrated Vatican codex in the papal library, the oldest uncial or Biblical manuscript in existence, does not contain Revelation. The canon of the New Testament was fixed as it now is by Pope Innocent I., A. D. 405, with the Book of Revelation still in dispute.”
Source: “The Woman’s Bible” by Elizabeth Cady Stanton (1898)”
Reply
dee2 says:
May 30, 2016 at 7:59 am
Chris,
***”You know know I thought you were just smart. But most of your word in these paragraphs are not research. They are click and paste off that site. Wow. No use arguing with that. Now I can finally go in peace. Have a nice life.”
What do you consider to be research if using the information provided by a website is not research? I note that you have done similarly by posting links to various websites in your comments – do you consider this to be research?
Can you or can’t you rebutt the arguments presented? Is the information which I posted (which was sourced from a website) factual or fallacious? The factualness or the fallaciousness of the information posted is what is at issue for debate not the source of the information, whether it came from a website or some other source such as a book.
***”……This whole story is a prophetic of the nation of Israel being cast off and Jesus and the Bride being made firstborn.”
The following restoration prophecy was made by Jeremiah to the exiles:
“They will come with weeping; they will pray as I bring them back. I will lead them beside streams of water on a level path where they will not stumble, because I am Israel’s father, and EPHRAIM IS MY FIRSTBORN SON” (Jeremiah 31:9; emphasis mine).
How can Jesus and the Bride be made firstborn when God clearly states that EPHRAIM IS HIS FIRSTBORN SON?
***”corresponds to Israel being cast off in the time of Christ and being restored in May 14, 1948 just as bible prophesy has said would come true. I don’t think anyone can state that the prophesy and expectations of the restoration of Israel is not fulfilled in 1948. Many had this expectation long time before Israel was restored.”
– As I stated before, according to Ezekiel chapter 4, Ezekiel engages in various dramatic signs – prophetic signs or actions – to convey his message. He binds himself in ropes; he lies on his left side 390 days to symbolize the390 years of exile of Israel, and then he lies on his right side for 40 days to symbolize the length of Judah’s captivity, which he says will be 40 years.
40 years from 586/587BCE when the temple in Jerusalem fell and a second deportation of Jewish exiles occurred, end long before 1948 CE.
Why would God deceive Ezekiel who thought God was talking about Israel being restored in 546/547BCE rather than 2534 years later?
Reply
dee2 says:
May 30, 2016 at 8:13 am
Chris,
In the following article, a debate between “Kinsella” and “Till”, “Till” addresses the claim that Ezekiel 4:1-8 contains an incredibily accurate prediction of the restoration of Israel in 1948:
http://www.theskepticalreview.com/jftprophecyezekiel4.html:
“Ezekiel’s “Exact” Prophecy of the Restoration of Israel by Farrell Till” :
Kinsella:
And finally, we return to Israel. In Leviticus 26:3, 7-8, the Bible says that the army of Israel would have a supernatural power to prevail during times of conflict. Leviticus says that 5 people would be able to chase away 100 people, and that 100 would be able to chase away 10,000.
Till:
I like for readers to have before them whatever texts on which a biblical inerrantist–and especially the prophecy-fulfillment type–is basing claims like this one. I will emphasize an important section of this passage that Kinsella skipped over in his citation above.
Leviticus 26:3 If you follow my statutes and keep my commandments and observe them faithfully, 4 I will give you your rains in their season, and the land shall yield its produce, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit. 5 Your threshing shall overtake the vintage, and the vintage shall overtake the sowing; you shall eat your bread to the full, and live securely in your land. 6 And I will grant peace in the land, and you shall lie down, and no one shall make you afraid; I will remove dangerous animals from the land, and no sword shall go through your land. 7 You shall give chase to your enemies, and they shall fall before you by the sword. 8 Five of you shall give chase to a hundred, and a hundred of you shall give chase to ten thousand; your enemies shall fall before you by the sword.
As readers can see, Kinsella conveniently skipped three verses in this passage. I will show the significance of those verses later, but first I want to point out that Kinsella has also tried to apply this passage to a time and situation for which it was never intended. If readers will flip back to chapter 25 in the book of Leviticus, they will see that a section began here that gave instructions to the Israelites concerning what they were to do after they crossed into Canaan and what Yahweh would do for them. The verses that Kinsella cited above are a part of that broader context.
Leviticus 25:1 Yahweh spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai, saying: 2 Speak to the people of Israel and say to them: When you enter the land that I am giving you, the land shall observe a sabbath for Yahweh. 3 Six years you shall sow your field, and six years you shall prune your vineyard, and gather in their yield….
This text claims that these were words that Yahweh spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai concerning what the Israelites were to do when they entered the land that Yahweh was giving them. At the time, the Israelites were still about 40 years from crossing into Canaan, so when he tries to apply this text to a reentering of the land some 3,500 years afterwards, Kinsella is putting a spin on the text that he is obligated to prove. He can’t just assert that the text was referring to a restoration of Israel thousands of years later; he must show that this was what the text referred to. I defy him to quote the language of the text that even suggests that this was its intended meaning.
Anyone who will take the time to read from the verses I just quoted above down to 26:3ff, which Kinsella is trying to apply to AD 1948, he should see that the entire passage was giving instructions that the Israelites were to follow when they entered the land that Yahweh was giving [snicker, snicker] them. Notice, for example, that Leviticus 26:5-6, which Kinsella conveniently skipped, said, “(Y)ou shall eat your bread to the full, and live securely in your land. And I will grant peace in the land, and you shall lie down, and no one shall make you afraid; I will remove dangerous animals from the land, and no sword shall go through your land.” There are five separate promises made in this text that clearly show that this could not have been a prophecy about modern Israel, unless Kinsella wants to admit that the prophecy obviously failed.
You shall… live securely in the land: Even before the day that Israel declared its independence in 1948, it has been rocked with continual turmoil and terrorists attacks. Since that could hardly be regarded as “liv[ing] securely in the land,” this verse either was not referring to what would happen in Israel in AD 1948 or else what it prophesied has failed to materialize. I suspect that the second alternative will be unacceptable to Kinsella and his deluded sycophants, so let him explain why verses 7-8 were prophecies of events in the Israel of AD 1948, but the two verses just before them weren’t. By what principle of hermeneutics and literary interpretation did Kinsella arrive at such an idea as this?
You shall lie down, and no one shall make you afraid: Is Kinsella so uninformed about modern history of Israel that he could actually claim with a straight face that Israelis have been able to “lie down” since 1948 without being afraid? If so, he needs more help than I can give him, because Israelis live in daily fear of terrorist activities that continually threaten their lives.
I will remove dangerous animals from the land: I suppose there could have been dangerous animals in the land of Canaan before the Israelites went in to possess it 3,500 years ago, but I doubt that dangerous animals in the land were any big problem for Israelis to worry about in 1948. The reference to “dangeous animals” that didn’t exist in the Palestine of 1948 is evidence that this passage was referring to the land that was contemporary to those times and not to modern Israel.
No sword shall go through your land: I suppose that Kinsella could argue in a literal sense that this has been fulfilled, but terrorist bombing and the shooting of Israeli citizens by their Palestinian enemies would certainly mean that figurative swords have repeatedly gone through the land and still continue to do so. Is Kinsella willing to say that this part of the prophecy failed?
I will grant peace in the land: How could anyone say that this prophecy has been fulfilled in modern Israel? The Israelis have enjoyed no peace from the time that they took possession of Palestine in 1948. Hence, we see that Kinsella has been playing the popular “smorgasbord” game of Christians, who pick and choose from the Bible what appeals to them and reject the rest. Kinsella was rather flagrant about this in his article, because he omitted all references to verses in Leviticus 26 that show that this passage couldn’t possibly be construed by any reasonable person as an accurate prophecy of Israel’s restoration in 1948.
As I continue my rebuttal of Kinsella’s article, I will be saying more about his misapplication of Leviticus 26:7-8, but to cut his next “argument” off at the knees, I first want to notice that military victories over vastly superior enemy forces is not at all unusual.
In 490 BC, an Athenian army that was outnumbered three to one by Persian forces won an overwhelming victory at Marathon. On October 25, 1415, a numerically superior French army, having an estimated 30,000 soldiers, was defeated by just 5,000 English archers and 900 soldiers in the battle of Agincourt. Such victories over great odds is no indication at all that a god was fighting with the outnumbered forces. Tactical strategies accounted for these victories, so unless Kinsella can prove that the god Yahweh actually did fight for the Israelis, he has nothing to support his case but argumentation by assertion.
Reply
dee2 says:
May 30, 2016 at 8:20 am
Chris,
Kinsella:
On May 15, 1948, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, and Lebanon invaded Israel. The combined populations of these countries was at least 20 million at the time, versus less than a million Israelis.
Till:
Actually the population of Israel at that time was only 600,000, but that is only a minor discrepancy compared to Kinsella’s distortion of what happened when Israel declared independence in 1948. He would have us believe that a nation outnumbered 20 to one was able to defeat the Arab legions, but that is far from an accurate picture of what really happened. First of all, the Israelis received more help from foreign volunteers than they did from their god Yahweh. Of the thousands of foreign volunteers recruited by the Israelis, many of them were veterans of World War II, so this gave them the advantage of troops experienced in battle, which the Arabs didn’t have. Israel also obtained B-17 bombers from the United States, an acquisition that gave them air supremacy. Kinsella conveniently failed to mention any of this. He would have his readers believe that the Israelis won because they had Yahweh fighting on their side.
The five Arab nations that Kinsella mentioned above did invade Israel, but he also failed to mention that the two superpowers of that time, the United States and the Soviet Union, as well as other countries, immediately recognized the independence of Israel and put pressure on the Arabs to withdraw. On May 29, 1948, Andrei Gromyko, the Soviet delegate to the UN, denounced the Arabs in a speech to the Security Council.
This is not the first time that the Arab states, which organized the invasion of Palestine, have ignored a decision of the Security Council or of the General Assembly. The USSR delegation deems it essential that the council should state its opinion more clearly and more firmly with regard to this attitude of the Arab states toward decisions of the Security Council (Official Records of the Security Council, SA/Agenda/77, May 29, 1948, p. 2).
When the United Nations threatened to censure them for aggression, the Arab nations withdrew, so this was not a case of a puny Israeli army defeating an army of millions of Arabs. It was a simple matter of political pressure from the superpowers that ended the war. For the sake of argument, however, let’s just assume that a vastly outnumbered Israeli army did engage and defeat a superior Arab army. What would make that any different from the Greek victory at Marathon or the English victory at Agincourt or Wellington’s defeat of Napoleon at Waterloo? An abiding failure of prophecy-fulfillment fanatics is that they see what they want to see in Near Eastern events. Any time that a person of any prominence at all in the Near East sneezes, prophecy-fulfillment fanatics will scream, “Prophecy fulfillment!”
Kinsella:
When the war was over, not only had Israel driven off the invaders, but she expanded her territory by over fifty percent.
Till:
I just showed that Kinsella’s interpretations of the events of that time are gross distortions of what really happened. Israel did not “drive off” the invaders; the UN threat to censure the Arab states drove them off. As for the expansion of territory, this was negotiated after the cease fire, when Israel gained territory through UN partitioning. If Kinsella really believes the distortions he is posting on his website, he seriously needs to research Near Eastern history of that period.
In that conflict, by the way, Israel suffered 6,373 casualities, which was one percent of its population of 650,000. Perhaps Kinsella can explain to us why Israel would have suffered such relatively high casualties if Yahweh was fighting on its side. After all, the Bible claims that the Israelites, at Yahweh’s biding (Num. 31:1-3), invaded Midian and killed all of the males without suffering a single casualty.
Numbers 31:48 Then the officers who were over the thousands of the army, the commanders of thousands and the commanders of hundreds, approached Moses, 49 and said to Moses, “Your servants have counted the warriors who are under our command, and not one of us is missing.
If Yahweh could have kept an army of 600,000 (Ex. 12:37) completely from harm in the invasion of an enemy nation, why couldn’t he have kept the Israeli army from suffering such heavy casualties during the 1948 war? Well, the answer is obvious to any reasonable person. The Israelis had no divine help in that war. If they really did have Yahweh fighting for them, they should have gotten another god to help them.
When I was in Bible college, my international relations instructor was fired because he said in class that during wars God is on the side that has the most guns. What he said is basically true, but as I noted above, the weaker sides sometimes are victorious over the stronger, but those victories are always due to superior battle strategies and tactics. One has to be simple minded to think that the weaker armies sometimes win because God is on their side. If an omniscient, omnipotent deity were really fighting on one side during a war, that army, like the Israelite army that defeated Midian, would suffer no casualties at all.
Kinsella:
The 1967 war lasted only six days and left Israel in control of Jerusalem for the first time in 2000 years.
Till:
And this proves what? Israel suffered 115 casualties in just the battle for the Golan Heights and 777 dead and 2,586 wounded altogether. Is that any way for an omniscient, omnipotent god to fight on the side of his “chosen people”? What happened to the shield of protection under which he led the Israelite army in biblical times?
Anyway, I am glad to see Kinsella admit that Jerusalem was out of Israel’s control for 2,000 years, because that admission is itself recognition of the failure of another biblical prophecy, which prophecy-fulfillment fanatics rarely mention, because Yahweh had promised that Jerusalem would forever remain in Judean control for the sake of David, who had always obeyed Yahweh.
When the northern kingdom [Israel] split from the southern kingdom [Judah], presumably at Yahweh’s biding, he promised that in appreciation of David’s righteousness, he would always keep Judah intact.
1 Kings 11:34 Nevertheless I will not take the whole kingdom away from him [Solomon] but will make him ruler all the days of his life, for the sake of my servant David whom I chose and who did keep my commandments and my statutes; 35 but I will take the kingdom away from his son and give it to you–that is, the ten tribes. 36 Yet to his son I will give one tribe, so that my servant David may always have a lamp before me in Jerusalem, the city where I have chosen to put my name.
Repeated promises were made to keep Jerusalem always intact for David’s sake. When Abijam turned out to be a king “who walked in all the sins of his father” (1 Kings 15:3), Yahweh nevertheless “gave him a lamp in Jerusalem” to establish Jerusalem, because David had always done right “in the eyes of Yahweh” (vs:5-6). Reference to this promise was made again when king Jehoram of Judah also turned out to be a bad egg.
2 Kings 8:19 Yet Yahweh would not destroy Judah, for the sake of his servant David, since he had promised to give a lamp to him and to his descendants forever.
A lot more could be said about the repetition of this promise in the Old Testament, but overkill isn’t necessary. Suffice it to say that Yahweh clearly promised to keep Jerusalem and Judah permanently in the possession of David’s descendants, but eventually Judah fell to Nebuchadnezzar, the Judeans went into captivity, regained their homeland during the reign of Cyrus of Persia, but then lost it again. By Kinsella’s own admission, the Jews lost control of Jerusalem for over 2,000 years, so he has inadvertently made a comment that shows that instead of being a book of amazing prophecies, the Bible is a book full of dismal prophecy failures.
Kinsella:
The 1973 Yom Kippur War was over in a couple of weeks.
Till:
Yes, it was, but the cost was 2,688 dead. If I were an Israeli official, I wouldn’t want Yahweh fighting for me in the next war.
At this point, Kinsella turned to trying to prove that the restoration of Israel in 1948 was predicted in biblical prophecy. In so doing, he appropriated an absurd prophecy-fulfillment claim that has been discredited numerous times. Some inerrantists have presented this same prophetic flapdoodle on the Errancy internet list, so it wasn’t at all new to me. Those inerrantists went into hiding as quickly as their fulfillment claims were refuted, and I suspect that Kinsella, who has already gone into hiding after declining my challenge to debate this issue, will remain there. Readers will soon see just how ridiculous this “countdown” prophecy claim is.
Kinsella:
The Year 1948 marked the end of one Divine Countdown and the beginning of another. The first Divine Countdown dealt with the duration of Israel’s Diaspora.
Till:
This is how Kinsella introduced his recycled claim that Ezekiel 4:5-6 predicted the exact time of Israel’s restoration in 1948. I will now take that claim point by point and dismantle it.
Kinsella:
In Ezekiel 4:5-6, the prophet records the period determined by God as punishment for Israel’s disobedience:
“For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel. And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.”
Till:
If readers will notice the bold-print emphasis that I have added to Kinsella’s quotation of Ezekiel 4:5-6, they will see where this recycled prophecy-fulfillment claim begins to come apart at the seams. As readers can see, Kinsella–or rather the source from which he borrowed this fulfillment claim–interprets it to mean that Yahweh was telling Ezekiel how long the Judeans would be in Babylonian captivity, but in actuality, this passage was referring to two separate captivities, the captivity of the house of Israel or the northern kingdom, and the captivity of the house of Judah. Two separate time periods were clearly identified in this text, so the most sensible interpretation of the passage is that Ezekiel was writing about two different captivities, the captivities of Israel (the northern kingdom) by Assyria, which occurred in 734 and 722 BC, and the captivity of Judah, which occurred in 597 BC, when Jerusalem fell to Nebuchadnezzar, and again in 587 when Babylon captured Jerusalem a second time. Israel’s captivity by Assyria is recorded in 2 Kings 15-17, and Judah’s captivity by Babylonia is recorded in 2 Kings 24-25 and Jeremiah 52. To the Hebrew mentality of this era, the Jews were Yahweh’s chosen people, so if they were taken captive, this had to have resulted from something they had done that was causing Yahweh to punish them, but Isaiah, whose “ministry” covered the time of the northern kingdom’s fall to Assyria, prophesied that the punishment would end and a remnant of Israel would be preserved and brought back from captivity.
Isaiah 10:12 When the Lord has finished all his work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem, he will punish the arrogant boasting of the king of Assyria and his haughty pride. 13 For he says: “By the strength of my hand I have done it, and by my wisdom, for I have understanding; I have removed the boundaries of peoples, and have plundered their treasures; like a bull I have brought down those who sat on thrones. 14 My hand has found, like a nest, the wealth of the peoples; and as one gathers eggs that have been forsaken, so I have gathered all the earth; and there was none that moved a wing, or opened its mouth, or chirped.” 15 Shall the ax vaunt itself over the one who wields it, or the saw magnify itself against the one who handles it? As if a rod should raise the one who lifts it up, or as if a staff should lift the one who is not wood! 16 Therefore the Sovereign, Yahweh of hosts, will send wasting sickness among his stout warriors, and under his glory a burning will be kindled, like the burning of fire. 17 The light of Israel will become a fire, and his Holy One a flame; and it will burn and devour his thorns and briers in one day. 18 The glory of his forest and his fruitful land Yahweh will destroy, both soul and body, and it will be as when an invalid wastes away. 19 The remnant of the trees of his forest will be so few that a child can write them down. 20 On that day the remnant of Israel and the survivors of the house of Jacob will no more lean on the one who struck them, but will lean on Yahweh, the Holy One of Israel, in truth. 21 A remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the mighty God. 22 For though your people Israel were like the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will return. Destruction is decreed, overflowing with righteousness. 23 For the Lord GOD of hosts will make a full end, as decreed, in all the earth. 24 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD of hosts: O my people, who live in Zion, do not be afraid of the Assyrians when they beat you with a rod and lift up their staff against you as the Egyptians did. 25 For in a very little while my indignation will come to an end, and my anger will be directed to their destruction. 26 Yahweh of hosts will wield a whip against them, as when he struck Midian at the rock of Oreb; his staff will be over the sea, and he will lift it as he did in Egypt. 27 On that day his burden will be removed from your shoulder, and his yoke will be destroyed from your neck.
Another of Isaiah’s prophecies of Israel’s return is in 35:8-10.
35:8 A highway shall be there, and it shall be called the Holy Way; the unclean shall not travel on it, but it shall be for God’s people; no traveler, not even fools, shall go astray. 9 No lion shall be there, nor shall any ravenous beast come up on it; they shall not be found there, but the redeemed shall walk there. 10 And the ransomed of Yahweh shall return, and come to Zion with singing; everlasting joy shall be upon their heads; they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.
Reply
Chris says:
May 30, 2016 at 8:27 am
Yet again you’ve managed to click and paste. No that’s not research it’s dishonestly. But if you feel the need to research skeptics guides and claims their view as your own then done it. It’s only searching for evidence that confirms your pre existing view. Sites like “skeptics guides” only reaffirm to you what you already believe. But that ok. There’s back and forth refutations for each of your points. so
Which do we believe? I’m sure you’ll find the click and paste answer which shows your lack of I tellyevece to think for yourself. So keep clicking and pasting because I don’t emirate you have the cognitive ability to think for yourself. I can go to any website that will back up what I believe. So you keep doing that and I’m going to keep in belief that what I do.
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Chris says:
May 30, 2016 at 8:32 am
You’ve managed to click and past site such as “isitgodsword”. “Skeptics guide”. And logical
Person can see that you only search sources that back uk what you believe. But that ok. If that’s what you want to believe I’m sure you’re happy with it. I look at both sides and not just one view. Can I not Google “why evolution is false” and come with the same conclusion you did? I.e finding material that backs up my view and paste it as logical information? Yes I can. So go on believing what you do or should I say clicking and pasting your beliefs. This time I’m not coming back because someone who doesn’t think for themselves and only find sources to match what they believe currently takes as much faith as a theist. Bye now
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Chris says:
May 30, 2016 at 8:40 am
Oh and by the way. You said the restoration happened way before 1948. The prophesy said they would never again be scattered. They were after the days of Jesus. So that’s not it. 1948. Just as Zionist said it would happen. But you didn’t find that in a click and paste did you?
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dee2 says:
May 30, 2016 at 8:27 am
Chris,
Another prophecy by Isaiah that Israel (the northern tribes) would be brought back from captivity can be found in 52:3ff, but for brevity’s sake, I won’t quote it. The important point to notice is that the captivity of the house of Israel happened well over a century before the house of Judah was taken into Babylonian captivity, so Isaiah could not have been talking about the Judean captivity. By Ezekiel’s time, the prophecies that Israel (the northern kingdom) would be returned had not been fulfilled, and to complicate matters, Judah, the southern kingdom had been taken into captivity too. Ezekiel 4:1ff, then, was just another prophetic attempt to predict that Yahweh would bring his people out of captivity. The only difference was that Ezekiel had two captivities to predict an end to rather than the one that Isaiah had prophesied. Kinsella’s recycled fulfillment claim errs in that it added together the “days” for the punishment of the house of Israel and the “days” for the punishment of the house of Judah to get a total of 430 “days,” which he then twisted to make both punishments begin with the captivity of the house of Judah. One doesn’t have to be an expert in hermeneutics to see the error in the fulfillment claim that Kinsella is trying to peddle to his gullible website subscribers. It is tragic that we live in a society so gullible that charlatans like him can make a living peddling religious nonsense.
If, then, we accept the one-day-equaled-one-year formula stated in Ezekiel 4:6, the meaning of the prophecy becomes that Israel (the northern kingdom) would be in captivity for 390 years, and Judah (the southern kingdom)would be in captivity for 40 years. When I come to the part of Kinsella’s article where he tried to make the 390 + 40 “days” (years) extend to AD 1948, I will show that there is good reason to believe that Ezekiel 4:5 originally said 150 days (years) rather than 390, and readers will see that this really throws a big monkeywrench into Kinsella’s fulfillment claim.
Kinsella:
Babylon was later conquered by Cyrus in 539 BC. Cyrus allowed the Jews to leave Babylon and to return to their homeland. But, only a small number returned. The return had taken place sometime around 536 BC,
Till:
Where does Kinsella get 536 BC as the date of the return of the Judeans to their homeland? As Kinsella correctly stated, Cyrus conquered Babylon in 539 BC, but that same year he issued an edict that allowed the Judeans to return to Jerusalem.
Ezra 1:1 In the first year of King Cyrus of Persia, in order that the word of Yahweh by the mouth of Jeremiah might be accomplished, Yahweh stirred up the spirit of King Cyrus of Persia so that he sent a herald throughout all his kingdom, and also in a written edict declared: 2 “Thus says King Cyrus of Persia: Yahweh, the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth, and he has charged me to build him a house at Jerusalem in Judah. 3 Any of those among you who are of his people–may their God be with them!–are now permitted to go up to Jerusalem in Judah, and rebuild the house of Yahweh, the God of Israel–he is the God who is in Jerusalem; 4 and let all survivors, in whatever place they reside, be assisted by the people of their place with silver and gold, with goods and with animals, besides freewill offerings for the house of God in Jerusalem.”
If Cyrus issued this edict in the first year of his reign over Babylon, which would have been 539 BC, why does Kinsella think that the Judeans didn’t return home till three years later? Aside from just parroting something that he has read without bothering to check it for accuracy, the Bible itself does not support the 536 BC date, because there is no scripture that I know of that indicates that the Judeans waited three years after Cyrus’s decree to begin their return to Jerusalem. Indeed, there are reasons to think that the Judeans left right after they had received permission to return. After Ezra recorded the decree of Cyrus, he certainly indicated a departure that was much sooner than a three-year delay. The decree stipulated that the people [Babylonians] were to assist the Judeans with contributions of gold,silver, goods, animals, and other valuables.
Ezra 1:5 The heads of the families of Judah and Benjamin, and the priests and the Levites–everyone whose spirit God had stirred–got ready to go up and rebuild the house of Yahweh in Jerusalem. 6 All their neighbors aided them with silver vessels, with gold, with goods, with animals, and with valuable gifts, besides all that was freely offered. 7 King Cyrus himself brought out the vessels of the house of Yahweh that Nebuchadnezzar had carried away from Jerusalem and placed in the house of his gods. 8 King Cyrus of Persia had them released into the charge of Mithredath the treasurer, who counted them out to Sheshbazzar the prince of Judah. 9 And this was the inventory: gold basins, thirty; silver basins, one thousand; knives, twenty-nine; 10 gold bowls, thirty; other silver bowls, four hundred ten; other vessels, one thousand; 11 the total of the gold and silver vessels was five thousand four hundred. All these Sheshbazzar brought up, when the exiles were brought up from Babylonia to Jerusalem.
Are we to suppose that it took three years for “everyone whose spirit God had stirred” to get ready to go up to Jerusalem? Are we to suppose that these Judeans took three years to gather the gifts from their neightbors and then leave? This passage is reminiscent of something that allegedly happened at the time of the exodus from Egypt, when the Egyptians gave the Hebrews gifts of silver, jewels, and gold (Ex. 12:35), and the exodus legend claims that the Israelites left Egypt on that “selfsame day” (Ex. 12:17, 41, 51). If the exodus from Egypt had taken place so quickly, why did the Judeans in Babylonian captivity take so long to leave? Perhaps Kinsella can tell us.
There is, in fact, a passage that implies that the Judeans were in their homeland by the seventh month.
Ezra 3:1 When the seventh month came, and the Israelites were in the towns, the people gathered together in Jerusalem.
Admittedly, this verse doesn’t say that this was the seventh month of the first year of Cyrus, but it is certainly reasonable to so understand it. Ezra dated the first chapter of his book with the first year of Cyrus’s reign, and after telling of the assistance of their neigbors after those “whose spirit God had stirred” prepared to return to Jerusalem, Ezra gave a census in chapter 2 of those who were returning. After completing the census list, he then said what I just quoted above: “When the seventh month came, the Israelites were in their towns.” If Ezra didn’t mean the 7th month after Cyrus had issued his decree, the Holy Spirit was somewhat careless in having Ezra to date the passage so ambiguously.
Some proponents of the prophecy-fulfillment claim that Kinsella is trying to peddle will argue that since some 42,000 were in the group of Judeans that returned to Jerusalem, it could have taken as long as three years for them to complete the journey, but a seven-month journey to the homeland of the Judeans would certainly have been consistent with what Ezra said about how long it had taken him to make a journey from Babylon to Jerusalem in the company of a sizable entourage.
Ezra 7:6 (T)his Ezra went up from Babylonia. He was a scribe skilled in the law of Moses that Yahweh the God of Israel had given; and the king granted him all that he asked, for the hand of Yahweh his God was upon him. 7 Some of the people of Israel, and some of the priests and Levites, the singers and gatekeepers, and the temple servants also went up to Jerusalem, in the seventh year of King Artaxerxes. 8 They came to Jerusalem in the fifth month, which was in the seventh year of the king. 9 On the first day of the first month the journey up from Babylon was begun, and on the first day of the fifth month he came to Jerusalem, for the gracious hand of his God was upon him.
So Ezra, traveling with an entourage of “some of the people of Israel, and some of the priests and Levites, the singers and gatekeepers, and the temple servants” made a trip from Babylon to Jerusalem in just four months. If a group of this size could have completed the journey in four months, surely the 42,000 could have made the trip quicker than the three years postulated by Kinsella’s fulfillment claim. Aside from this, there is another point that must be considered. As soon as the Judeans left Babylon, their captivity would have ended, so even if they did take three years to make the trip home, those would have been three years of freedom. Hence, their “punishment” would have ended in 539 BC. If not, why not?
Kinsella:
70 years after Judah lost independence to Babylon as Jeremiah predicted.
Till:
I will soon show that Kinsella’s math is bad again, but first, let’s notice that 70 is not 40. The fulfillment claim, based on Ezekiel 4:5-6, that Kinsella is trying to sell us said that Ezekiel was to “lie on [his] right side and bear the iniquity of the house of Judah” for “forty days, each day for a year” (v:6). Hence, the “prophecy” was that the house of Judah would be punished in captivity for forty years, not seventy.
So where did Kinsella, or rather those from whom he appropriated this fulfillment claim, get the 70 years? Well, as he himself stipulated above, he was referring to what Jeremiah had predicted, and Jeremiah did predict 70 years of captivity in Babylon (Jer. 25:11; 29:10), so who was right about the duration of the “punishment” (captivity) of the house of Judah, Ezekiel or Jeremiah? Maybe Kinsella can tell us.
Even Jeremiah’s prediction of 70 years of captivity turned out to be incorrect. As noted above, Nebuchadnezzar captured Jerusalem in 597 BC, at which time he took the first wave of captives to Babylon. Nebuchadnezzar became king in 605 BC and besieged Jerusalem in the eighth year of his reign.
2 Kings 24:10 At that time [Jehoiachin’s brief reign] the servants of King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon came up to Jerusalem, and the city was besieged. 11 King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon came to the city, while his servants were besieging it; 12 King Jehoiachin of Judah gave himself up to the king of Babylon, himself, his mother, his servants, his officers, and his palace officials. The king of Babylon took him prisoner in the eighth year of his reign.
If Nebuchadnezzar became king in 605 BC and if he besieged Jerusalem in the eighth year of his reign, the siege would have happened in 597 BC, which agrees with what Babylonian records say about the siege, so if the captivity of the house of Judah began in 597 BC and if it ended in the first year of the reign of Cyrus in 539 BC, the Judean captivity lasted only 58 years. Even if we take Kinsella’s date of 536 BC for the end of the captivity, that would extend the captivity only three more years, and 61 would not be 70. Some proponents of this prophecy-fulfillment claim that the Judean captivity began in 605 BC. This date is based on Daniel’s claim that Nebuchadnezzar besieged Jerusalem in “the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim” (Dan. 1:1), which would have been 605 BC, but there is no evidence, either biblical or extrabiblical, to support this claim.
The Babylonian siege of Jerusalem is well documented by both biblical records and the Babylonian chronicle. Except for the rankest of fundamentalists, who want the book of Daniel to be “inerrant,” scholars agree that Jerusalem was sieged by Babylon the first time in 597 BC and that the events of that time hardly allow for a siege of Jerusalem in 605 BC.
Jehoiakim was made vassal king of Judah by Pharaoh Necoh (2 Kings 23:34). He was twenty-five years old when he began to reign, and he reigned for 11 years (2 Kings 23:36). According to undisputed chronology, Jehoiakim’s reign began in 609 BC and lasted till 598 BC. If, as Daniel 1:1 claims, Nebuchadnezzar besieged Jerusalem in Jehoiakim’s third year, this siege would have been in 606/605 BC, but there is no supporting evidence that such a siege took place. The biblical record claims that Jehoiakim was a vassal of Egypt during the initial years of his reign and that he taxed the people in order to pay tribute of gold and silver to Pharaoh Necoh (2 Kings 23:35), so the biblical record doesn’t support the claim of a siege during the third year of Jehoiakim, which would have been 605 BC.
Nebuchadnezzar defeated the Egyptians in 605 BC at Carchemish, which would have been the third or fourth year of Jehoiakim (depending on whether his years on the throne were calculated by an accession or first-of-the-year formula), and in the scroll that Jehoiakim burned (35:23), Jeremiah prophesied in the fifth year of Jehoiakim (36:9) that “the king of Babylon” would “certainly come and destroy this land” (36:29). If Nebuchadnezzar had already besieged Jerusalem and taken captives in Jehoiakim’s third year, why was Jeremiah prophesying two years later (in Jehoiakim’s fifth year) that the Babylonian king would come and destroy the land?
When Nebuchadnezzar defeated the Egyptians in 605 BC at Carchemish, which was about 400 miles from Jerusalem, the vassalage of Judah passed to Nebuchadnezzar without any actual Babylonian military action against Jerusalem. Jehoiakim then served Nebuchadnezzar for three years (2 Kings 24:1), but in 601 BC, the Egyptians had regrouped and won a battle against the Babylonians. Apparently Jehoiakim was emboldened by the Babylonian defeat to rebel against Babylon, and this prompted Nebuchadnezzar to send bands of Syrian, Moabite, and Ammonite troops (now incorporated into his army by virtue of his having defeated the Assyrians) against Judah (2 Kings 24:2). This would have happened in Jehoiakim’s eighth year, but keep in mind that the biblical record claims that Jehoiakim reigned 11 years.
Three years later, Nebuchadnezzar “came up to Jerusalem, and the city was besieged” (2 Kings 24:10). At this time, Jehoiakim had died, and his son Jehoiachin was reigning (24:6-8). As noted above, Jehoiachin “went out to the king of Babylon” with his mother, servants, princes, and officers, and surrendered to “the king of Babylon” (24:12). Notice that this verse explicitly states that this happened in the eighth year of the reign of the king of Babylon (Nebuchadnezzar).
As noted above, Nebuchadnezzar was involved with the Egyptians at Carchemish in 605 BC, which was also the year that his father Nabopolassar died. When word of his father’s death reached him, Nebuchadnezzar rode across the desert to take the shortest route possible to reach Babylon and secure his claim to the throne. He took the throne on September 6, 605 BC, so where are the records that would confirm that somehow between Nebuchadnezzar’s preoccupation with the Egyptians at Carchemish, his return to Babylon, his accession to the throne, securing his claim, etc., he found time to take captives in Judea? There is no record of Nebuchadnezzar’s having besieged Jerusalem in 605 BC after securing his throne. If Nebuchadnezzar besieged Jerusalem after securing his throne on September 6, 605 BC, he would have had to return to the area of Carchemish and move his army 400 miles southwest before the end of the year. There are serious problems with Daniel’s claim that Nebuchadnezzar besieged Jerusalem in the third year of Jehoiakim (605 BC). Other biblical and extrabiblical records do not corroborate the claim, so there is every reason to suspect that Daniel, which is riddled with historical inaccuracies (another article for another time), simply erred in saying that Nebuchadnezzar besieged Jerusalem in the third year of Jehoiakim.
I know that Daniel 1:1 says that Nebuchadnezzar laid siege to Jerusalem at this time, but as the texts I explicated above show, Daniel’s claim was inconsistent with the records in 2 Kings 24, as well as Jeremiah 52 and the Babylonian Chronicle, which is quoted in the text below.
This clay tablet is a Babylonian chronicle recording events from 605-594BC. It was first translated in 1956 and is now in the British Museum. The cuneiform text on this clay tablet tells, among other things, 3 main events:
1. The Battle of Carchemish (famous battle for world supremacy where Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon defeated Pharoah Necho of Egypt, 605 BC.),
2. The accession to the throne of Nebuchadnezzar II, the Chaldean, and
3. The capture of Jerusalem on the 16th of March, 598 BC.
We are going to compare the record of this Babylonian clay tablet, as translated into English by scholars, with the account recorded in the Bible. About the capture of Jerusalem the clay tablet reads:
“In the seventh month (of Nebuchadnezzar-599 BC.) in the month Chislev (Nov/Dec) the king of Babylon assembled his army, and after he had invaded the land of Hatti (Syria/Palestine) he laid seige [sic] to the city of Judah. On the second day of the month of Adara (16th of March) he conquered the city and took the king (Jehoiachin) prisoner. He installed in his place a king (Zedekiah) of his own choice, and after he had received rich tribute, he sent (them) forth to Babylon.”
Reply
dee2 says:
May 30, 2016 at 8:34 am
Chris,
The article quoted above went on to compare this record from the Babylonian Chronicle to the biblical account in 2 Kings 24, which I have already cited. The two records essentially agree, but notice that the Chronicle says that Nebuchadnezzar invaded “the land of Hatti” at a time that would have been 599 BC in our calendar and after this invasion, he “laid seige [sic] to the city of Judah.” Hence, the Babylonian Chronicle and 2 Kings 24 disagree with the claim in Daniel 1:1 that Nebuchadnezzar laid siege to Jerusalem in the third year of Jehoiakim, which would have been 605 BC. As the text quoted from the chronicle shows, Jehoiachin, Jehoiakim’s son, was the king of Judah at that time. Hence, the siege of “the city of Judah” after the invasion of “the land of Hatti” would have occurred in 598/597 BC. Inconsistency in biblical texts is not at all unusual, and Daniel’s disagreement with the writers of 2 Kings 24 and Jeremiah 52 is just another example of those inconsistencies.
If Kinsella is going to claim that his prophecy-fulfillment scenario should be dated from 605 BC, he needs to give some kind of evidence besides his mere claim that his chronology is correct. At any rate, even if we date the captivity of Judah from 605 BC and end it in 536 BC, Kinsella could not find the 70 years he needs, because 605 – 536 = 69. Sixty-nine is hardly precise enough to support a claim that the date of Israel’s restoration was accurately predicted to the very year.
Kinsella:
Because most of the exiles chose to stay in pagan Babylon rather than return to the Holy Land, the remaining 360 years of their punishment was multiplied by 7.
Till:
There are actually two claims in this sentence. First, Kinsella is claiming that God punished Israel because most of the Judeans remained in Babylon instead of returning to their homeland. I don’t know how Kinsella determined that “most” of the exiles chose to stay in Babylon. I certainly know of no biblical passage that says this, but I really don’t doubt that many of the exiles did stay in Babylon. After all, the captivity had lasted from 597 BC to about 538 BC for one group and from 587 to 538 BC for the second wave of captives. In other words, at least two entire generations had been born in Babylon and had grown up there, so they would have considered this their home just as children of immigrants today would prefer the country in which they were born and had grown up in if their parents and grandparents should return to their homeland. Kinsella and his like-minded cohorts apparently think that the failure of some of the exiles to return to Judah was a sin for which Yahweh brought punishment upon them, but that is a premise that they need to prove. I won’t let them just assume it. Besides, what kind of god would punish an entire ethnic group because some of their ancestors had wanted to stay in the land of their birth? If Yahweh really did this, as Kinsella speculates, then he acted contrary to his decree that the “righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him” (Ezek. 18:20).
There are some more problems with Kinsella’s conjecture–or rather the conjecture that he has appropriated–that Yahweh decided to punish Jews in general because some of the exiles chose to remain in Babylon. Problem one: most 20th-century Jews chose to remain in the countries of their birth instead of emigrating to Israel in 1948, and even today, there are many more Jews living outside of Israel than in it. How, then, does Kinsella and his cohorts explain Yahweh’s failure to continue the punishment of the Jews beyond 1948? After all, if Yahweh really did extend punishment of the Jews to AD 1948 because some of the Babylonian captives had refused to return to their homeland, why would he not punish modern Jews who chose to remain in other countries instead of returning to Israel? I guess consistency just isn’t one of Yahweh’s attributes. Anyway, according to Kinsella’s “logic,” Yahweh could not restore Israel until every single Jew living in other countries agreed to return to the homeland of their ancestors. There wouldn’t be enough land to hold all of them if they should decide to do that. Problem two: Daniel was one of those who was responsible for God’s sevenfold magnification of their punishment, because in the first year of his reign, Cyrus issued a decree allowing the Judeans to return to their homes, but Daniel 10:1 claims that Daniel had received a vision during the third year of the reign of Cyrus, so Daniel was evidently one of those who chose to remain in Babylonia. I wonder why Yahweh chose a disobedient reprobate like Daniel to write one of his “inspired” books.
A second claim in Kinsella’s statement above was that “the remaining 360 years of [the Jew’s] punishment” was multiplied by 7 “because most of the exiles had chosen to remain in Babylon.” Before I look again at Kinsella’s misapplication of Leviticus 26:7-8, I need to point out a problem with the 390 years of Ezekiel 4:5 that Kinsella has been crowing about. I mentioned that problem earlier, but now it is time to show that there is good reason to suspect that this passage in Ezekiel originally said that 150 “days” [years] rather than 390 had been appointed for the punishment of the house of Israel.
Reply
dee2 says:
May 30, 2016 at 8:37 am
Chris,
I hate to take the wind out of Kinsella’s sails, but the 390 and 40 “days,” which equaled 430 years in the one-day-equals-one-year formula, involve a point of controversy that I am sure he is completely unaware of. Most prophecy-fulfillment proponents don’t bother to look farther than the ends of their noses when they are trying to find amazing prophecy fulfillments, but if Kinsella had done a little research rather than just recycled a prophecy-fulfillment claim that probably sounded impressive to him when he first encountered it, he might have discovered that there is a variation of the numbers in other versions of Ezekiel 4. In the Septuagint, for example, verses 4-6 read like this in Brenton’s translation. I will emphasize in bold print expressions and numbers to which Kinsella should have given more attention than he did.
And thou [Ezekiel] shalt lie upon thy left side, and lay the iniquities of the house of Israel upon it, according to the number of the hundred and fifty days during which thou shalt lie upon it: and thou shall bear their iniquities. For I have appointed thee their iniquities for a hundred and ninety days: so thou shalt bear the iniquities of the house of Israel. And thou shalt accomplish this and then shalt lie on thy right side, and shalt bear the iniquities of the house of Juda for forty days: I have appointed thee a day for a year.
Let’s notice first that the Septuagint gave 150 days as the period of time that Ezekiel would “bear the iniquities” of the house of Israel and 40 days for the iniquities of the house of Judah, which totaled 190 “days” [years] that Yahweh had appointed for Ezekiel to bear their [Israel’s and Judah’s] iniquities. The Septuagint was a 3rd-century BC Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures, but most English translations were derived from the Masoretic Hebrew text whose earliest existing copies dated from about the 11th century AD. Hence, the Septuagint reading should be given serious consideration, since it was derived from Hebrew manuscripts that were much closer to the Hebrew “originals.” Kinsella and his cohorts, then, should show us evidence that the 390 days of Ezekiel 4:5 was the original reading and not a variation that resulted from careless copying or deliberate editing. I will show later that there are good reasons to suspect that a deliberate editing of Ezekiel 4:5-6 was done after the 190-day reading resulted in a prophecy failure. Some editor(s), probably recognizing the failure, tried to gloss over it by tacking on 200 more days to push the fulfillment well beyond the postexilic period.
I will come back to this later, but first I want to remind everyone that the text in Ezekiel clearly spoke of two punishments: the iniquity of the house of Israel and the iniquity of the house of Judah. Hence, there were two separate “iniquities” that Ezekiel was to bear: (1) the iniquity of the house of Israel for 150 or 390 days (depending on which reading is accepted as the intended one), and (2) the iniquity of the house of Judah for 40 days. Two separate time periods are clearly identified in the text, so the most sensible interpretation of these references is that Ezekiel was writing about two different captivities, the captivities of Israel (the northern kingdom) by Assyria, which occurred in 734 and 722 BC, and the captivity of Judah, which occurred in 597 BC, when Jerusalem fell to Nebuchadnezzar, and again in 587 when Babylon captured Jerusalem a second time. As I explained above, Israel’s captivity by Assyria is recorded in 2 Kings 15-17, and Judah’s captivity by Babylonia is recorded in 2 Kings 24-25 and Jeremiah 52, so Kinsella is distorting the obviously intended meaning of the text when he adds 390 and 40 to get one continuous period of 430 years. He can’t even prove that Ezekiel 4:5-6 originally said 390 “days” [years] instead of 150, as the Septuagint version reads.
Why is it reasonable to suspect that the Septuagint reading of 150 days was the likely number that Ezekiel originally used in reference to the iniquity of the house of Israel? Well, by Ezekiel’s time, the prophecies of Isaiah that Israel (the northern kingdom) would be returned had not been fulfilled, and to complicate matters, Judah, the southern kingdom had been taken into captivity too. Ezekiel 4:1ff, then, was just another prophetic attempt to predict that Yahweh would bring his people out of captivity. If, then, we accept the one-day-equals-one-year formula stated in Ezekiel 4:6, the meaning of the prophecy becomes that Israel (the northern kingdom) would be in captivity for 150 (or 390) years and Judah 40 years. The date of the final Assyrian captivity of the northern kingdom was 722 BC, but there was an earlier, partial deportation in 734 BC (see 2 Kings 15:29ff). If 150 is subtracted from 722 (the year of the most extensive deportation), that would bring us to 572 BC. In 597 BC, Jerusalem fell to Nebuchadnezzar and a partial deportation of Judah occurred at that time (2 Kings 24), and a later, deportation occurred in 586 BC, so if 40 is subtracted from 586 BC, this would bring us to 546. If 40 is subtracted from 597 BC, that would bring us to 557 BC. Hence, if the 150 days is accepted as the more likely number that was originally in Ezekiel 4:5, this would have Ezekiel prophesying that the two captivities would end at about the same time.
Reply
dee2 says:
May 30, 2016 at 8:40 am
Chris,
That “Ezekiel” was so prophesying is consistent with the circumstances in which this book was written. The writer of Ezekiel claimed to be an exile living near Babylon.
Ezekiel 1:1 In the thirtieth year, in the fourth month, on the fifth day of the month, as I was among the exiles by the river Chebar, the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God. 2 On the fifth day of the month (it was the fifth year of the exile of King Jehoiachin), 3 the word of Yahweh came to the priest Ezekiel son of Buzi, in the land of the Chaldeans by the river Chebar; and the hand of Yahweh was on him there.
Here is an example of the confusion that has resulted from a garbled text that was likely caused by frequent editing and revising. If the heavens were opened to Ezekiel in “the thirtieth year,” this would have been the 30th year of what? If it was the “fifth year of the exile of King Jehoiachin,” as verse two says, it could not have been the 30th year of the exile, because, as we noticed above, Jehoiachin surrendered to Nebuchadnezzar in the eighth year of the latter’s reign (2 Kings 24:12) and was taken to Babylon (2 Kings 24:15). As also noted above, the eighth year of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar would have been 597 BC. Hence, the “thirtieth year” of verse 1 cannot be the thirtieth year of the captivity unless this is a part of Ezekiel that has been corrupted through the frequent editing and revising that mainstream scholars have recognized is characteristic of the book in general.
This, however, is incidental to my point. “Ezekiel” claimed to be an exile living near Babylon, and throughout his book, either he or his redactors made frequent references to the return of Jews from the many lands into which they had been scattered. I have already shown that Ezekiel 4:1-8 is one such example of this interest. The others are too numerous to quote, but the passage below is typical of the belief of that time that Yahweh would gather “his people” back from all of the nations where they had been dispersed.
Ezekiel 34:11 For thus says the Lord GOD: I myself will search for my sheep, and will seek them out. 12 As shepherds seek out their flocks when they are among their scattered sheep, so I will seek out my sheep. I will rescue them from all the places to which they have been scattered on a day of clouds and thick darkness. 13 I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries, and will bring them into their own land; and I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, by the watercourses, and in all the inhabited parts of the land. 14 I will feed them with good pasture, and the mountain heights of Israel shall be their pasture; there they shall lie down in good grazing land, and they shall feed on rich pasture on the mountains of Israel. 15 I myself will be the shepherd of my sheep, and I will make them lie down, says the Lord GOD. 16 I will seek the lost, and I will bring back the strayed, and I will bind up the injured, and I will strengthen the weak, but the fat and the strong I will destroy. I will feed them with justice.
One would have to be completely devoid of literary interpretation skills not to see that passages like this were promising a return of all the Jews from the lands they had been taken to and not just a return of the Judean captives in Babylon. The recurrence of this theme in Ezekiel makes it likely that 4:5 originally fixed the length of punishment for the house of Israel at 150 rather than 390 “days” [years]. In other words, the Septuagint translators, working in the third century BC, very likely were using a Hebrew text of Ezekiel that used 150 “days” [years] in 4:5. Thus when Ezekiel predicted that the punishment of the house of Israel would last 150 years [days] and that, contrary to what Jeremiah thought, the punishment of the house of Judah would last 40 years [days], he was predicting, as noted above, that repatriation of the two houses would happen about the same time. As time passed, however, it became obvious that the exiles from the house of Israel had not been gathered back to their homeland within the 150 years predicted by Ezekiel, so a later editor changed the 150 days to 390. That time, however, has long passed too, and the exiles of the house of Israel or the northern kingdom remain the lost tribes of Israel. Hence, rather than being an example of amazingly accurate prophecy fulfillment, Ezekiel 4:5-6 is an example of a prophecy that failed miserably.
Reply
dee2 says:
May 30, 2016 at 8:42 am
Chris,
Kinsella:
The reason [why punishment was multiplied by seven] is explained in [the] Bible’s book of Leviticus. (Leviticus 26:18, 26:21, 26:24 and 26:28). In Leviticus, it says that if the people did not repent while being punished, the punishment would be multiplied by 7. And, by staying in pagan Babylon, most exiles were refusing to repent.
Till:
I have already commented on Kinsella’s misapplication of the first part of Leviticus 26 One of my points in those comments was that Kinsella is merely speculating when he says that “staying in pagan Babylon” was a refusal to repent. Did Daniel, the author of one of Yahweh’s “inspired” books,” refuse to repent when he stayed in Babylon? Are all of the modern Jews who have chosen to live outside of Israel refusing to repent? These are little problems with Kinsella’s prophecy interpretation that probably never occurred to him, but to give him a fair hearing, let’s look now at the other verses in this chapter that he just cited.
Leviticus 26:18 And if in spite of this you will not obey me, I will continue to punish you sevenfold for your sins.
Leviticus 26:21 If you continue hostile to me, and will not obey me, I will continue to plague you sevenfold for your sins.
Leviticus 26:24 (T)hen I too will continue hostile to you: I myself will strike you sevenfold for your sins.
Leviticus 26:28 I will continue hostile to you in fury; I in turn will punish you myself sevenfold for your sins.
I use the New Revised Standard Version because I think its modern language is easier to understand than the KJV, which Kinsella apparently uses. However, even if I used the KJV myself, I would have quoted the verses above from the NRSV, because they make clear something that Kinsella is apparently unaware of. The KJV says that Yahweh would punish the Israelites “seven times” for their sins, but the NRSV says that Yahweh would punish them “sevenfold.” This translation recognizes that the word times is not in the Hebrew text, so literally the verses quoted above were saying that Yahweh would punish or strike or plague the Israelites seven[fold] for their sins. The idea of multiplication of a time period is simply not present in the text. As I will show, that is something that Kinsella and his like-minded cohorts are reading into it.
That multiplication was probably not meant in the Leviticus passages can be seen from the one time that the word more was used in Leviticus 26. This was in verse 18, where the KJV has Yahweh saying that he would punish the Israelites “seven times more for [their] sins.” There is a word for more in the Hebrew text, but that word was yâcaph, which Strong defined like this.
3254. yacaph, yaw-saf’; a prim. root; to add or augment (often adv. to continue to do a thing):– add, X again, X any more, X cease, X come more, + conceive again, continue, exceed, X further, X gather together, get more, give moreover, X henceforth, increase (more and more), join, X longer (bring, do, make, much, put), X (the, much, yet) more (and more), proceed (further), prolong, put, be [strong-] er, X yet, yield.
I am not expert enough in Hebrew to claim any expertise, but I did study it at the Bible college I attended and have reviewed it enough to understand that the KJV translation of Leviticus 26:18 may not capture the meaning of the Hebrew text as well as the NRSV and other versions. The definition of yâcaph above would certainly allow for the idea that Yahweh was simply saying that he would add or augment or increase or continue the punishment of the Israelites sevenfold. In other words, if one wants to read the text with a strictly literal eye, why couldn’t the verse mean that if Yahweh punished the Israelites with a plague and yet they didn’t repent, he would then send, say, another plague, a drought, a crop failure, a flood, a famine, a decimation of their flocks by wild beasts, and an enemy invasion. The example is hypothetic, but it is entirely consistent with what the verse says, because after Yahweh had punished the Israelites, he would have then sent seven more specific punishments upon them. Hence, he would have punished them sevenfold for their failure to repent. Let Kinsella tell us why the verse could not mean this.
If he does reply to this–and I don’t think there is a chance in the world that he will–he may want to examine the following passages that also used the Hebrew word yâcaph.
Genesis 30:24 24 (A)nd she [Rachel] named him Joseph, saying, “May Yahweh add [yâcaph] to me another son!”
Deuteronomy 4:2 You must neither add [yâcaph] anything to what I command you nor take away anything from it, but keep the commandments of Yahweh your God with which I am charging you.
Deuteronomy 12:32 You must diligently observe everything that I command you; do not add [yâcaph] to it or take anything from it.
2 Kings 20:5 “Turn back, and say to Hezekiah prince of my people, Thus says Yahweh, the God of your ancestor David: I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; indeed, I will heal you; on the third day you shall go up to the house of Yahweh. 6 I will add [yâcaph] fifteen years to your life.
Isaiah 38:5 “Go and say to Hezekiah, Thus says Yahweh, the God of your ancestor David: I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; I will add [yâcaph] fifteen years to your life.
Jeremiah 45:3 You said, “Woe is me! Yahweh has added [yâcaph] sorrow to my pain; I am weary with my groaning, and I find no rest.”
Reply
dee2 says:
May 30, 2016 at 8:47 am
Chris,
I could quote several other passages, but these are sufficient to make the point that yâcaph in Hebrew often conveyed the sense of “adding.” Kinsella has tried to make this same word mean multiply in Leviticus 26. I have checked two concordances, but I was unable to find even one place in the Old Testament where this word was translated with the English word multiply or any of its derivatives. Will Kinsella come out of hiding and address this issue?
Will pigs fly someday?
As I pointed out above, Leviticus 26 is in a broader context in which Yahweh was warning “his people” of dire consequences if they were disobedient after crossing into Canaan. Hence, Kinsella and his prophecy-fulfillment cohorts are flagrantly distorting the text when they try to apply it to events that were at that time far distant in the future. That, however, is just one distortion of the text. Any reasonable person who reads the verses above in context should see that they were warning of an increase in the intensity of punishment rather than the duration of punishment.
To see this, one has only to examine in context the verses that Kinsella cited as proof of his position. As I mentioned earlier, beginning with Leviticus 25, “Moses” related laws that Yahweh had presumably spoken to him on Mt. Sinai. These laws were primarily concerned with the usage of the land and other possessions that Yahweh was giving them at the end of their 40-year trek in the wilderness. Yahweh made all kinds of promises. If the people would do this, Yahweh would do that; if the people would do so-and-so, Yahweh would do this and that, but after the promise of blessings came the inevitable warning that if the Israelites did not toe the line, Yahweh would punish them severely.
We can clearly see this meaning if we look at the verses that preceded each verse that Kinsella cited. In showing the broader contexts, I will emphasize in bold print each verse that Kinsella cited so that readers can better see what they were referring to.
Leviticus 26:13 I am Yahweh your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, to be their slaves no more; I have broken the bars of your yoke and made you walk erect. 14 But if you will not obey me, and do not observe all these commandments, 15 if you spurn my statutes, and abhor my ordinances, so that you will not observe all my commandments, and you break my covenant, 16 I in turn will do this to you: I will bring terror on you; consumption and fever that waste the eyes and cause life to pine away. You shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it. 17 I will set my face against you, and you shall be struck down by your enemies; your foes shall rule over you, and you shall flee though no one pursues you. 18 And if in spite of this you will not obey me, I will continue to punish you sevenfold for your sins.
For verse 18, which contains the sevenfold warning, to be applicable to the refusal of some Judeans to return to their homeland after Cyrus had issued his decree, Kinsella would have to show that Yahweh had first brought terror upon those who stayed in Babylon and that they had been afflicted with fever that wasted their eyes and caused their lives to waste away, and so on, but Kinsella has no evidence that Yahweh ever brought any such punishments on the exiles who stayed in Babylon. The text above was directed to those who would go into Canaan, but it says nothing about those who would go into captivities. Its obvious meaning was that when the people who went into Canaan disobeyed Yahweh’s commandments, he would punish them with various afflictions, which he would increase sevenfold if they then refused to repent. Notice, however, that the passage says nothing at all about a duration of time; it speaks instead of severity or intensity of punishment.
Overkill isn’t necessary, so I will quote the entire passage in which the three other verses cited by Kinsella appear. Readers should easily see that the full context was saying that the punishments suffered would happen in their land and not in a land they would be exiled to and that the severity and not the duration of their punishments would be increased.
Leviticus 26:19 I will break your proud glory, and I will make your sky like iron and your earth like copper. 20 Your strength shall be spent to no purpose: your land shall not yield its produce, and the trees of the land shall not yield their fruit. 21 If you continue hostile to me, and will not obey me, I will continue to plague you sevenfold for your sins. 22 I will let loose wild animals against you, and they shall bereave you of your children and destroy your livestock; they shall make you few in number, and your roads shall be deserted. 23 If in spite of these punishments you have not turned back to me, but continue hostile to me, 24 then I too will continue hostile to you: I myself will strike you sevenfold for your sins. 25 I will bring the sword against you, executing vengeance for the covenant; and if you withdraw within your cities, I will send pestilence among you, and you shall be delivered into enemy hands. 26 When I break your staff of bread, ten women shall bake your bread in a single oven, and they shall dole out your bread by weight; and though you eat, you shall not be satisfied. 27 But if, despite this, you disobey me, and continue hostile to me, 28 I will continue hostile to you in fury; I in turn will punish you myself sevenfold for your sins.
Notice that this passage very clearly referred to what would happen in “your land” and “your cities” and not to lands and cities to which they would be exiled. It was clearly a warning that the Israelites had better shape up after they entered the land or else Yahweh would bring famine, pestilence, plagues, and such like upon them. Not once, did the text speak of how many years these punishments would endure but always spoke of intensity. Thus, the warnings of a “sevenfold” punishment were obviously referring to severity or intensity and not to their duration. In other words, the passage was referring to specific punishments like pestilence, crop failures, attacks from wild animals, and so on that Yahweh would send upon the disobedient Israelites. By saying, “I will continue to plague you,” the words that “Moses” put into the mouth of Yahweh obviously meant that he would increase sevenfold the kinds of punishments, and it cannot be pressed to mean that he would multiply sevenfold the length or duration of the punishments. If Kinsella will bother to check, he should see that no references are made anywhere to how long the duration of the punishments would be.
Reply
dee2 says:
May 30, 2016 at 8:50 am
Chris,
Clearly, this passage was warning that if the Israelites did not behave in their own land, they would be punished seven times for their sins, which was an expression that probably wasn’t intended any more literally than when Jesus told Peter that he should forgive his brother not just seven times but seven times seven (Matt. 18:22). I suppose that Kinsella would understand this to mean that one could keep records and after he had forgiven someone 49 times, he could refuse to forgive him after that. In other words, seven was a number that denoted perfection or, in the case of Leviticus 26, severity or intensity. It is pure conjecture for Kinsella and his prophecy-fulfillment fanatics to claim that it denoted length or duration.
At any rate, anyone who continues to read on in Leviticus 26 will see that these were warnings of what would happen to the Israelites when they came into their own land if they did not obey Yahweh’s laws. If Kinsella had bothered to read on, he should have seen that. Verse 31, for example, says, “I will make your cities a waste and will bring your sanctuaries into desolation.” The next verse says, “And I will bring the land into desolation.” Verse 33 did threaten that the people would be “scattered among the nations,” but Yahweh then immediately returned to the land and what would happen to their land if they didn’t shape up: “And your land shall be a desolation, and your cities shall be a waste.” The broader context of the verses that Kinsella cited shows that this entire chapter, as well as the one before it, was warning of the consequences of disobedience that the Israelites would suffer after they had crossed into Canaan.
In no way was this passage speaking in the sense of a literal seven. The concept was severity. If the Israelites didn’t shape up after they had come into their land, Yahweh would punish them severely, and then if they didn’t repent, he would punish them even more severely [sevenfold]. What is there in this passage that justifies picking four verses completely out of context and applying them to the captivities of the Israelites that would occur centuries later? And how does Kinsella get “years” out of this text in Leviticus? It simply says that Yahweh would punish them sevenfold for their sins; it doesn’t say that he would multiple the length of their punishments by seven.
The sevenfold-punishment part of Kinsella’s prophecy-fulfillment claim is pure assumption. There is, in fact, another scripture that implies that the Jews didn’t think that Yahweh had some invariable law that required sevenfold punishment for disobedience. In a song of “deliverance” characteristic of his belief that better times were coming, Isaiah said that Yahweh was ending a double penalty for Israel’s sins.
Isaiah 40:1 Comfort, O comfort my people, says your God. 2 Speak tenderly to Jerusalem, and cry to her that she has served her term, that her penalty is paid, that she has received from the Lord’s hand double for all her sins.
Here is a passage that does speak of punishment in language that implies duration or a penalty “term” that Israel had served. Isaiah said that this had been a “double” penalty. If Isaiah had thought that sevenfold punishment was an invariable principle that Yahweh applied to sins, why didn’t he say that Israel had served a sevenfold penalty for all her sins? Where exactly, then, did Kinsella get the idea that God was so angered by the refusal of some Jews to return to their homeland that he punished them by multiplying the length of their exile until AD 1948? If there is any truth to this assumption of his, then why didn’t Yahweh extend their exile again when many Jews didn’t return to their “homeland” when Israel was proclaimed a nation in 1948? How many Jews now live in the United States? In Canada? In France? In Italy? In Spain? In England? In Russia? In Poland? In various other countries? Why wasn’t Yahweh ticked off that these Jews didn’t return to their homeland when they had the opportunity? Just why did the refusal of some Jews in the 6th century BC to return to their homeland cause Yahweh to extend the length of their exile seven times, but when far many more Jews in 1948 didn’t return to the Jewish “homeland,” Yahweh didn’t seem to care?
These are questions that I challenge Kinsella to answer, but I suspect that we will have to wait a long, long time to see any effort from him to reply to this rebuttal article.
Reply
dee2 says:
May 30, 2016 at 8:53 am
Chris,
Kinsella:
So, if you take the remaining 360 years of punishment and multiply by 7, you get 2,520 years.
Till:
This is where Kinsella’s prophecy-fulfillment scenario gets even more ridiculous than the parts that I have dismantled above. First, he errs by assuming that Ezekiel 4:5-6 was predicting one extended period of punishment, but I have shown that this text was actually speaking of two periods of punishment, one for the house of Israel and one for the house of Judah. These were not periods where one began, then ended, and the second one began; they were periods that overlapped. All of this was established above, so I don’t need to speak any further to this distortion of the text. Second, Kinsella assumed that the text in Ezekiel 4 originally assigned a period of 390 “days” [years] to the punishment of the house of Israel, but I showed that there are good reasons to think that 390 days resulted from a later revision of the text, which had originally assigned only 150 “days” [years] for the punishment of Israel. Third, after getting 430 years by adding Ezekiel’s questionable 390 years for the house of Israel to his 40 years for the house of Judah, Kinsella then took Jeremiah’s 70-year period of captivity for Judah rather than Ezekiel’s 40-year prediction and subtracted 70 from 430 to get the “remaining 360 years of punishment” that he referred to immediately above. Since Ezekiel said that the punishment of the house of Judah would last for 40 “days” or years, Kinsella needs to explain why he didn’t subtract 40 from 430 to get 390 “remaining years” of punishment. He has pulled a slick one that probably went right over the heads of his readers, because Bible fundamentalists aren’t too sharp about checking the claims of spin doctors like Jack Kinsella. If a prophecy-fulfillment claim sounds good, they will accept it uncritically.
A fourth problem in Kinsella’s statement above is his appeal to Leviticus 26 to justify multiplying by seven his 360 years, a formula that he obtained by flawed mathematics, to get 2,520 years. Let’s notice now how Kinsella went further astray from the probable meaning of both Ezekiel 4 and Leviticus 26.
Kinsella:
That is 2,520 Jewish lunar years. 2,520 years x the 360-day lunar calendar works out to 907,200 days. Divide that by 365 and you come up with 2485.479 years.
Till:
A serious flaw in Kinsella’s math is apparent to anyone who knows the real length of a solar year, which is actually 365.242 days and not 365. The fraction of a day has been compensated for by the addition of leap-year days in both the Julian and the Gregorian calendars. The Julian calendar was based on a 365.25-day year, but over extended periods, this still caused seasons to drift; hence, the Julian calendar was replaced by the 365.242-day year of the Gregorian calendar to synchronize more perfectly the seasons with the sun. If we divide Kinsella’s 907,200 days by 365.242, we will get 2,483.8326 solar years and not the 2485.479 in his scenario, and if Kinsella is going to claim amazing accuracy in the fulfillment of Ezekiel’s prophecy, he must be more exact in his calculations than he was in postulating the fulfillment on a 365-day year, because May 14, 1948, is a Gregorian date in a calendar based on a 365.242-day year. If Kinsella’s calculations are otherwise correct–and, as I will show, they aren’t–the nation of Israel would have had to have been restored 1.646 years or 19.75 months before May 14, 1948, in order to have an “exact” fulfillment of Ezekiel’s prophecy” (as Kinsella is interpreting it). In other words, the “restoration” of Israel would have had to have happened around October 24, 1946, for Kinsella’s fulfillment claim to have been exact and to the day.
Kinsella’s scenario is typical of the kind of silly shenanigans that charlatans like him pull to deceive their gullible sycophants. Does it ever occur to any of them to ask why God didn’t just say that the punishment of Israel and Judah would endure for 907,200 days rather than hiding his meaning in some kind of secret code that could be understood only by a select few (the “select few” being those like Kinsella who appoint themselves as experts on the meaning of biblical prophecies)?
To further dismantle this part of Kinsella’s scenario, let’s notice that even though the Jews used a lunar calendar, their calendar was based on a 365-day solar year. If Kinsella had bothered to research this subject instead of just parroting what he read in fundamentalist articles about prophecy fulfillment, he would have discovered this. Prophecy-fulfillment buffs try to make a distinction between solar years and so-called Bible or “prophetic” years by assigning 365 days to the solar year but only 360 days to a Bible or prophetic year. As Kinsella did in his article, they try to dazzle readers with their “expertise” by assuming that prophecies like Ezekiel 4, which speak of “years,” meant so-called “prophetic years” of 360 days each. They then convert these alleged “prophetic years” to a specific number of days by multiplying the “prophetic years” by 360. Finally, they divide the number of days by 365 to get the number of solar years that would have passed to get to the time of the prophecy fulfillment. Hence, in the case of Ezekiel 4, Kinsella added (incorrectly, as I have shown above) the 390 years of Israel’s punishment to the 40 years of Judah’s punishment to get 430 years, which he then reduced to 360 by subtracting Jeremiah’s 70 years instead of Ezekiel’s 40 years for the punishment of Judah. After all of this verbal legerdemain, he multiplied 360 by 7 to get 2,520 years, a step that he justified by falsely applying statements in Leviticus 7. Then, he multiplied 2,520 by 360 years on the grounds that the Jews used a lunar calendar of 360 days, after which he then divided 907,200 (2,520 x 360) by 365 to get the number of “solar years” that were to pass in the fulfillment of Ezekiel’s prophecy.
Anyone who thinks that God would use such a complicated formula as this to date his prophecies really should seek professional help, but the pathetic thing about it is that Kinsella’s sycophants are too uncritical to see that this pat little formula is seriously flawed. First of all, Kinsella’s source of all of this prophetic flapdoodle failed to recognize that the Jews of biblical times were well aware that there were more than just 360 days in a year, and they reflected this recognition in their calendar. The Jewish calendar was planned around the recognition that having only 360 days in a year would cause the seasons to drift gradually and make it difficult to keep track of when planting and harvesting seasons would begin. Hence, the Jewish calendar would intercalate an additional or 13th month at intervals of 3, 6, 11, 14, 17, and 19 years (The Bible Dictionary, Inter-Varsity Press, 1994, p. 159), which had the effect of keeping the seasons synchronized with the solar year. There are some biblical passages that seemed to round off years in terms of twelve months, but that is hardly evidence that when a prophet spoke in terms of years, he always meant 360-day years. The fact is, as I will show below, there were no 360-day years at all in the Hebrew calendar. Their years ranged from 353 to 385 days in length. Hence, if Kinsella is going to put such a key element as a 360-day year into his fulfillment scenario, he needs to prove that the prophecy in question was intended to be calculated in terms of 360-day years. He presented no such evidence; he merely asserted that it was this way.
Reply
dee2 says:
May 30, 2016 at 8:58 am
Chris,
A second flaw in Kinsella’s fulfillment scenario is that he is claiming an exact, to-the-very-day fulfillment on May 14, 1948, when Israel declared its independence, but he didn’t give us a beginning date for Ezekiel’s “countdown.” As readers can see, the absence of a beginning date is very obvious in the continuation of his fulfillment scenario.
Kinsella:
2,485.479 years from 536 BC brings us to the end of the first quarter of the year 1949– exactly one year after Israel’s restoration in 1948. But 1 BC and 1 AD were the same, so the actual date on our calendar that Ezekiel predicted the restoration of Israel corresponds to late spring, 1948!
Till:
I suppose the exclamation point at the end of his statement was supposed to make us think that he had made a startling discovery, but this guy is so calendrically ignorant that he thinks that 1 BC and 1 AD were the same. They were not the same. In his confusion, Kinsella was probably thinking that there was no year zero, but that is not the same as saying that 1 BC and 1 AD were the same. In reality, 1 BC ended, and then 1 AD began. They were not the same, and anyone who wants to verify this can go to Rosetta Calendar conversion service (which I will refer to again below and explain in more detail) and see that January 1, 1 BC, in the proleptic Gregorian calendar was Julian Day Number 1721060 and January 1, AD 1, in the same proleptic calendar was Julian Day Number 1721426. When JDN 1721060 (January 1, 1 BC) is subtracted from JDN 1721426 (January 1, 1 AD), the answer is 366. (Since there was no year zero, 1 BC was a leap year with 366 days, so in BC proleptic calendars, leap years fell in odd-numbered years.) The important point, however, is that the JDN numbers show that Kinsella was flat out wrong when he said that 1 BC and 1 AD were the same year. If he doesn’t know any better than this, he certainly has no business claiming that he has found an exact, to-the-very-day prophecy fulfillment.
What I said above about Julian Day Numbers may be incomprehensible to those who know nothing about JDNs, but my comments further along will explain what they mean and how they are used by astronomers and historians to determine exactly when events happened. It should then be clear why JDNs are a more exact way to determine the exact number of days that passed between a beginning and an ending point.
Aside from the problem I identified above in Kinsella’s pat little theory, we have to wonder how he can know that 2,485.479 years from 536 BC would take us to late spring of AD 1948? Where in 536 BC did he begin his countdown? From the first month? The second month? The third month? Where? You just can’t know that 2485.479 years or 907,200 days passed from a beginning point until May 14, AD 1948, unless you know the exact date of that beginning point.
The problem is that Kinsella was so unfamiliar with this fulfillment scenario that he forgot to include a beginning date in 536 BC so that we could test his theory to see if exactly 907,200 days had passed from that specific date to May 14, 1948, the specific date when Israel declared its independence. Better informed proponents of this fulfillment scenario claim that the countdown began on the first day of Nisan in 536 BC. This gives a more specific scenario that can be tested, and the tests will show that it won’t work, but before I show that, let’s first assume that the countdown began with the first day of the year 536 BC.
If we begin the countdown at January 1, 536 BC, in a proleptic Gregorian calendar, and since Kinsella’s fulfillment date was a Gregorian date, to test the accuracy of his claim, we must proleptically project the Gregorian calendar back to 536 BC. (Proleptic calendars are routinely used by astronomers and historians, a fact that can be verified by checking a calendric conversion site.) When this is done, we find that from Gregorian January 1, 536 BC, until the last day of Gregorian BC 1, 536 years or 195,769.71 days (536 X 365.242) would have passed. From the first day of Gregorian AD 1 through December 31, 1947, in the Gregorian calendar, 1,947 years or 711,126.17 days (1,947 x 365.242) would have passed. Hence, from Gregorian January 1, 536 BC, through Gregorian December 31, 1947 AD, 2,483 years (536 + 1947 = 2483) or 906,895.88 days (195,769.71 + 711,126.17 = 906,895.88) would have passed. From January 1, 1948, to May 14, 1948, there were 135 days (January 31 + February 29 + March 31 + April 30 + May 14 = 135). Hence, from the very first day of 536 BC through May 14, 1948 AD, there were only 907,030.88 days (906,895.88 + 135 = 907.030.88). If we round off the fraction, we have only 907,031 days, which is 169 days short of the 907,200 days in Kinsella’s scenario. Since it would be impossible to begin the countdown from 536 BC any earlier than the very first day of that year, it isn’t possible to begin the countdown at any time in 536 BC and get the 907,200 days claimed in Kinsella’s scenario. So much for his amazing, to-the-very day fulfillment of Ezekiel 4:5-6!
Reply
dee2 says:
May 30, 2016 at 9:01 am
Chris,
We can double check my calculations by the Julian-Day-Number system which astronomers and historians use to date events without having to rely on imperfect calendars. A good layman’s explanation of Julian Day Numbers can be found at the site that I just linked to, and I would suggest that readers unfamilar with JDNs go there and read the article before continuing in this article. Simply stated, Julian Day Numbers number days consecutively without reference to months, days, and years. Hence, each day is assigned a number instead of a date like August 28, AD 2004, the date on which I am writing this article. The JDN for this date is 2453246 or, in other words, the 2,453,246th day from Julian 1 January 4713 BC, which Joseph Justus Scaliger, the inventor of the system, obtained by projecting the Julian calendar back into time. Although particular days in the past may have different dates on the different calendars, the JDN will always be the same regardless of what calendar is used. For example proleptic Gregorian January 1, 536 BC, would have been proleptic Julian January 7, 536 BC, but the JDN for that day would have been the same, 1525656. In the Hebrew calendar, this date would have been 9 Shevat 3225, but again the JDN would have been the same, 1525656.
With this information in mind, anyone reading this can go to a calendar conversion site and locate the JDNs necessary to check my calculations above. I use the Rosetta Calendar conversion service, and it shows, as I noted above, that the JDN for Gregorian January 1, 536 BC, was 1525656. It shows that the JDN for May 14, AD 1948, was 2432686. When JDN 1525656 (Gregorian January 1, 536 BC) is subtracted from JDN 2432686 (Gregorian May 14, AD 1948) the answer obtained is 907,030. Hence, the JDN system tells us that 907,030 days separated Gregorian January 1, 536 BC, from Gregorian May 14, AD 1948, the same number that I obtained above in my clumsier way of calculating the number of days that passed from the first day of the year 536 BC to the date of Israel’s restoration in 1948. Hence, two methods of precise calculations have shown us that it would have been impossible for 907,200 days to have passed from any date in 536 BC to the restoration of Israel in AD 1948. As I explained above, it would be impossible to start a countdown from 536 BC any earlier than the very first day of that year.
Now that everyone understands how Julian Day Numbers work, I can use them to show that Kinsella is wrong when he says that the Jewish year was just 360 days long. Using again the Rosetta Calendar will show that the Hebrew year 3226, which overlapped with Gregorian 436 BC, began on 1 Tishri, whose JDN was 1525914, and ended on 29 Elul, whose JDN was 1526268. Hence, there were only 354 days (1526268 – 1525914 = 354) in the Hebrew year 3226 (436/435 BC), so we immediately see that Kinsella is wrong in saying that the Hebrew year consisted of twelve 30-day months. (In fact, we will soon seen that there were no 360-day years at all in the Hebrew calendar.) A lunar cycle is about 29.5 days in length, so necessarily some months in a lunar calendar had 29 days and some had 30, and this caused variations from 353 to 355 days in Hebrew common years. If we go to Hebrew year 3227, we find that it had 353 days. It began with 1 Tishri, whose JDN was 1526269, and ended with 29 Elul, whose JDN was 1526622, so 1526622 – 1526269 = 353. If this kind of calendar had continued, the seasons would have drifted to a point that predicting planting and harvesting seasons would have been difficult if not impossible. Hence, the Hebrews, as noted above would intercalate a 13th month (Adar II) at different intervals. The Hebrew year 3228, for example, was a leap year that had two months of Adar. That year began with 1 Tishri, whose JDN was 1526623, and ended with 29 Elul, whose JDN was 1527007. Subtracting 1526623 from 1527007 shows that there were 384 days in this year. The extra days resulted from the addition of a second month of Adar. These leap years that added a second month of Adar at intervals of 3, 6, 8, 11, 14, 17 and 19 years had the effect of keeping the Jewish calendar synchronized with the solar year. An analysis of the Hebrew calendar, which is too long to quote here, will explain that “common years” in this calendar would have 353, 354, or 355 days and that leap years would have 383, 384, or 385 days. Curiously, a Hebrew year never had 360 days as Kinsella claimed. So much for his expertise on the length of biblical years.
Since Jewish years were designed to average 365 days over time, I will challenge Kinsella to tell us why we should not think that Ezekiel 4:5-6 was written with this kind of year in mind. His scenario of 2,520 years in Ezekiel’s prophecy would take us from 536 BC to AD 1984 (536 + 1984 = 2,520) if this prophecy, as Kinsella has interpreted it, was speaking of normal Jewish years that averaged 365 days rather than the 360-day years that Kinsella has hypothesized without justification. Let him show us that Ezekiel was not speaking of years that were the length calculated in the Jewish calendar.
Reply
dee2 says:
May 30, 2016 at 9:06 am
Kinsella’s scenario, which he appropriated from someone else, is clearly wrong, and I defy him to show on his website that I have miscalcuated. I hope this will be a warning for readers to be very careful before they accept prophecy-fulfillment claims from those who think that they have figured out exact, to-the-very-day fulfillments of biblical prophecies. Those claims are almost a dime a dozen, and none of them can withstand the kind of scrutiny to which I have subjected Kinsella’s scenario.
Kinsella:
1948 — the Year of the Countdown, counts down in both directions. It counts down with staggering precision to the exact point in history when the fig tree would once again blossom.
Till:
I have completely dismantled Kinsella’s fulfillment scenario and shown that there is no precision at all to it and certainly no “staggering” precision, unless Kinsella wants to argue that missing a to-the-very-day fulfillment by 170 days would be “staggering precision.”
I defy him to reply to my rebuttal and show that his scenario was “staggeringly” precise and my rebuttal of it is flawed. He will find that he just can’t argue with the precision of Julian Day Numbers, which I doubt that he has any familiarity with at all.
Kinsella:
That event triggered the Second Countdown — the one that signals the end of the Church Age. It is somewhat less precise, for obvious reasons.
Jesus said no man would ever be able to calculate the exact day and time, but He did tell us we would know when ‘it was near, even at the door’, [sic] saying, “This generation shall not pass, until all be fulfilled.”
Till:
At this point, Kinsella switched to a claim he had made at the beginning of his article, which is that the restoration of Israel in 1948 was the “fig tree” that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24
Matthew 24:32 “From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.
Before I comment further, let’s look at Kinsella’s remarks below to see how he tried to distort this passage.
Kinsella:
The current Prime Minister of Israel, Ariel Sharon, fought in the 1948 War of Independence. He is still around. And so are we. So the ‘fig tree’ generation has not yet passed from the scene.
Till:
To dismantle this part of Kinsella’s fulfillment claim would require almost as much space as I have taken to expose the flaws and absurdities in his distortion of Ezekiel 4:5-6, so I will write a second article in this series to show that when Jesus said that “this generation” would not pass away till all these things have taken place, he meant the generation of his time. However, since that prophecy failed, diehard inerrantists have tried all sorts of shenanigans to make this text not mean what it was obviously saying, but I will have to save the details for my second article.
Kinsella:
And it won’t before the Return of Christ. Which could be any minute now.
Till:
I am now 71 years old, and all of my life, I have heard demagogues like Kinsella warning that the return of Jesus would happen soon, and before I was born, the same kind of demagogues had predicted the same, but Jesus hasn’t returned yet. Furthermore, he will never return, because if he really was an actual historical character–and there are good reasons to doubt that he was–he is dead, has been dead for a long, long time, and will remain dead until the end of time. I suspect, however, that charlatans like Kinsella will be around for just as long still fleecing gullible sheep for $10 per month or whatever they can dupe them into giving. After Ariel Sharon and everyone else of his generation are dead, fools like Kinsella will simply reinterpret prophecies like the ones in Matthew 24 and claim that they meant something else.
There seems to be no cure for ignorance.
Kinsella:
Keep looking up!
Till:
Kinsella can keep looking up if he wants to, but I have better things to do than waste time on religious stupidity.
My second article will, as I pointed out above, dismantle Kinsella’s application of the fig-tree passage in Matthew 24. Meanwhile, I defy him to try to answer my rebuttal points in this article, but don’t hold your breath until he does. I have conducted private correspondence with him and have learned that he is a coward who likes to preach to the choir on his website, but he isn’t about to have his ignorance exposed in a public debate with informed opposition. Go to Part Two:
“When the Fig Tree Puts Forth Its Leaves
by Farrell Till”http://www.theskepticalreview.com/jftprophecyfigtree.html
Reply
dee2 says:
May 30, 2016 at 10:34 am
Chris,
***”Your third and fourth paragraphs of your first post shows your lack of understanding. When the Bible shows the word “beast” many times it’s a meaning of government or system. But you assume that it means literal animals.”
In 568 B.C.E. Nebuchadrezzar attacked Egypt but was repulsed by Pharaoh Amasis II under whose rule Egypt continued to prosper. History has no record of there being no “government or system” in Egypt at that time. History has no record of Egypt ever suffering as Ezekiel prophesized. Ezekiel was wrong again.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/symes05.htm
__________
***”Have you ever tried looking at the pro material for this rather than looking for information that matches your current view. On the outset of your answers you seem intelligent but we can see the lack of your understanding. If you researched further this is found in the scriptures you might see something that might shake your view………If you only want to research what anti-Christian views then that’s what you’ll find. But if you don’t have any theological views then there’s no reason to continue this conversation.”
Please note that I have studied the Bible and have researched the information therein. You seem to have a problem with persons challenging/questioning your beliefs. The Bible admonishes us to “Test all things” (1 Thessalonians 5:21) but you seem to be averse to any critical/skeptical examination of your beliefs.
I note that you prefer to answer
the various points/questions which I have raised, via e-mail instead of on the website
What is the difference? Both methods of corresponding involve using an electronic device with keyboard in order to type your response so what’s the difference? Why the preference? Is it that you rather to conduct private correspondence because you fear what will be exposed during a public debate?
Reply
Chris says:
May 30, 2016 at 1:20 pm
“Please note that I have studied the Bible and have researched the information therein. You seem to have a problem with persons challenging/questioning your beliefs. The Bible admonishes us to “Test all things” (1 Thessalonians 5:21) but you seem to be averse to any critical/skeptical examination of your beliefs.”
Not true. You’ve looked up information to
Support your views. Clicks and pasting. Reading it is not equivalent. Have you accepted what these site have said? So if these facts you click and pastes are true then why do scholars all disagree with each other.
And yes Egypt is desolate. Not as in nothing exist there but as in they are and have never been a worlds super power ever again. They are a weak nation. But you take a point of view.
Clicking and pasting makes you an armchair scholar. Richard Dawkins is an athiest and anyone assumes because he is a scholar what he says is true. This is what you’ve done. Looked up information for your preconceived idea and click and paste it. Thats not a true scholar. It’s ok that you don’t know much. Most athiest don’t. They Google things like “False prophesies in the Bible” and read it assume it’s scholarly because it matches what they believe and present it as fact.
But that ok. You keep doing that.
That’s not testing all things that’s called biased confirmation. So click and past all you want. It shows you don’t know what you’re talking about.
Reply
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