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Maybe I'm Just Ignorant About the New "Anti-Gay" Video
by turtleturtle 3 days ago 146 Replies latest a day ago   jw friends
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turtleturtle
turtleturtle 3 days ago

Homophobia (M-W.com):

1.: irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals
Can someone tell me, specifically, was homophobic about the new "Anti-gay" WT video. Particularly, what showed an "irrational fear", "aversion", or "discrimination"?
I'm definitely not saying I agree with the video. It was done in horrible taste. But many throw these terms around a lot.

 +7 / -0
neat blue dog
neat blue dog 3 days ago
Yes,'homophobia' is overused as a catch-all slur in and of itself often. As for the video: Irrational fear? Not quite. Aversion? Not quite. Discrimination? It could be argued that since the video says gays won't be allowed in paradise, then paradise isn't an equal opportunity landlord 😜
 +8 / -1
xjwsrock
xjwsrock 3 days ago

Comparing homosexuality to carrying a duffle bag seems to be intentional insensitivity and a perpetuating of ignorance. Like someone can just drop homosexual leanings or desires like a dropping a piece of carry-on luggage.
Whether this can be considered discriminatory is prob in the eye of the beholder. A case could certainly be made for it.
 +8 / -0
steve2
steve2 2 days ago

I am ambivalent over whether the video meets criteria for homophobia. I have read and participated in long exchanges in earlier threads on this topic and I probably lean more to now thinking it is a more subtle - and perhaps insidious - form of homophobia.
As a propaganda tool directed at young children, it very cleverly perpetuates the notion that being gay or lesbian is a choice and can be changed. "Hey, you want to get on this plane? Drop the baggage - others have done it!" This would be very funny were it not a damaging message. 
And the "baggage" metaphor flies in the face of clinical research on human sexuality. It thus perpetuates the false notion that who you are attracted to is a choice. So, if a young JW child finds he or she has same-sex feelings, they will immediately feel there must be something bad about their "choice" and begin a vain lifelong struggle against themselves. Sure, if you act on who you are attracted to that is a choice. But the attraction itself is not.
Yes the video is framed with cheery antiseptically cautious language - but the intent is the same. It does not recognize gay or lesbian relationships and in particular marriage. And that is consistent with the JWs literal take on the Bible.
 +14 / -0
Simon
Simon 2 days ago

There is no way on earth that anyone is going to make a court case over this. It's hardly discriminatory and winning would involve removing everyone else's right to religious belief and government interjection into biblical interpretation.
Get real, forget it.
They believe that god has promised a paradise and won't let certain people in. Boo hoo. Not being welcomed into an imaginary land is as discriminatory as not being included as a character in Alice in Wonderland. No one is going there anyway, it's make believe.
Lots of other people aren't invited too, not just gay people. There are more than gay people lumped together in the bible verse they base it on.
As for the choice vs non-choice - they would argue that it's not about being gay, it's about being immoral and everyone has (should have) a choice of whether they are sexually active so based on the bible view, it's no different to non-gay people having sex outside of marriage. Of course the fact remains that they don't allow gay people to marry - based on scriptures like that. So round and round the circular reasoning goes.
But damn, if anyone is really offended then they should take legal action to ensure that they are invited to the imaginary land they don't believe in.
 +17 / -6
Lieu
Lieu 2 days ago

It's in poor taste.
Also, it does promote fear in young people living with same sex couples.
*Keep in mind the prevailing theme of fear in JWism.*
The young girl talking with her counterpart is going to be fearful of same sex relationships and those in them. Why? Because she's being taught that it displease God so much they'll not be allowed in paradise, ergo it's wicked because only the wicked don't make it.
Her counterpart must now go home terrified that the ones she loves are going to die or be punished by God. Not only that but she has been made responsible for delivering the bad news.
Emotional child abuse. It also shows the lack of love and empathy for the position her counterpart is in.
 +6 / -2
Doubtfully Yours
Doubtfully Yours 2 days ago

I have watched it a few times and cannot understand what is the big deal. How else, in a more tactful, loving way can JW parents communicate to their small kids their beliefs?
It was not hateful or accusatory. Nope! As many gripes as I have with the WTBTS, this stance would win in a court of law.
We need to focus outrage some place else.
DY
 +5 / -5
Jehalapeno
Jehalapeno 2 days ago

Homophobia has become a catch-all term for the LGBTQ community equivalent of racism.


It would be hard for someone to argue that the above statements were not racist statements.
The same can be said for the video. It is sugar coated homophobia.
Anyone saying the video wasn't homophobia either hasn't thought about it much, hasn't put themselves in the shoes of those that are homosexuals, or they still hold a personal prejudice themselves against the LGBTQ community.
Just because it is someone's religious right to believe something ignorant and prejudicial does not give them freedom from criticism.
 +9 / -0
littlerockguy
littlerockguy 2 days ago

I don't know if it is "homophobic" but it certainly dehumanizes a demographic and promotes bigotry and perpetuates a lie that gays have a choice.
LRG
 +5 / -0
Simon
Simon 2 days ago

The over-extended outrage and mislabelling of it as hate speech will cause any curious 3rd party without a hat in the ring to think that many exJWs are simply trying to invent fault to see in the WTS and are completely unreasonable ... and they'd probably be right.
Some people seem to be desperately looking to be outraged. For instance, where does it label anyone as "wicked" as claimed? It just doesn't.
Just who are these mythical children of same-sex couples that are watching WTS videos? Are we seriously to believe that it is THE most frightening manifestation of religious opinion that they will ever come across? Maybe they thought "mommy and mommy" (or "daddy and daddy") were loved and accepted by all ... before they saw that TERRIBLE video?! (OMG, shock horror, waves hands in dramatic fashion and falls to knees for added effect).
It's ridiculous to think that the sky is falling because of the tamest religious presentation against homosexuality that's probably possible to imagine.
Here's a challenge: describe the bibles condemnation of homosexuality in a clear but less "homophobic" way than the WTS video ... then tell us all again how evil they are.
 +8 / -3

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Maybe I'm Just Ignorant About the New "Anti-Gay" Video
by turtleturtle 3 days ago 146 Replies latest a day ago   jw friends
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OnTheWayOut
OnTheWayOut 2 days ago

Virtually all religions indoctrinate their children with such techniques, but they rarely put it in cartoon form.
This is a conservative Christian religion that teaches hating those that live very contrary to their rules. Nothing new.
I hate the video, it may be viewed as hate, maybe even by nations or courts. But it's just a cartoon of what most of these groups do with the kids to combat the enlightened attitude that is gaining momentum in the world.
 +1 / -1
Lieu
Lieu 2 days ago

Yeah, Russell was a bit Eurocentric and lacked quite heavily on Biblical knowledge.
Everyone knows the land of Canaan was in the Middle East, not Africa. Is Israel in Africa? No. And 2 of Israelite tribes were part Egyptian (Africans); the 2 sons of Joseph. [No Arabs in Africa back then]
Whenever Israelites including Abraham, Mary & Joseph, et al needed to hide from crazies, they always fled to Africa. That's pretty much where the always went.
But Russell was a man of his times and held beliefs consistent with his baptist/protestat past and general US American rascist thought. Not to mention it was an erroneous teaching of the RCC for centuries.
I chalk that up to RCC envy. No one saught refuge in Europe, not ever. Under persecution, Christians saught refuge in Egypt and Turkey.
 +1 / -0
freemindfade
freemindfade 2 days ago

The video teaches discrimination.
If mom and dad owned a business and expressed openly the belief that someone couldn't get into the company based on their sexual orientation it would be sex based discrimination and considered harassment
No this scenario is not exactly the same, its a religion, and they are saying its the big J who discriminates and will effectively kill the same sex couple at Armageddon. It promotes to children the idea that homosexuality is deviant choice made by someone who will be killed by god. The reasoning is very clear.
Same sex couple will not make it to the panda petting zoo, what is Sophia doing to do? Tell their child about the panda petting zoo. She is not going to bring it up in order to mind her own business and live and let live.
This subject presented in a work environment from a HR perspective would be pretty clearly discrimination.
yes the bible is homophobic, that's not new, but this video is interesting because it has made very public Watchtower's (practically a political) stance on same sex marriage. In the past yes they may condemn homosexuality, but at a time when same sex unions are center stage of politics and media they have taken a side addressing not homosexuality, but the union. I don't think its too much to be impressed that people like George Tekai are talking about it, and I don't think its too much to think that its portrayal of childhood indoctrination to discriminate is disgusting. But too each their own.
 +7 / -1
Simon
Simon 2 days ago

Can you tell us what discrimination is being taught? Like an actual "don't serve them pizza or sell them a cake" kind of real thing, not "I'm not going to send happy thoughts your way" mumbo jumbo.
Also, when the bible says "the meek will inherit the earth" does that mean that any non-meek people are also being discriminated against? Should we start a petition or a march or something?
Also, I'm not one of the 12 tribes of Israel so think I missed out on some promises. Who should I contact to complain?
 +4 / -4
freemindfade
freemindfade 2 days ago

Can you tell us what discrimination is being taught
I think the airport illustration pretty much hammered that one home for most people. Homosexuality is pin pointed and the value of the lives of a homosexual are portrayed as less (that is unless they leave their bags behind).
If this were the time of racial segregation in america, I would rather be accused of being "overly outraged" by anything promoting racial discrimination then later being accused of defending any vestige of it as "not that bad" regardless of the forum, the reason, or the prevalence.
Bible condones slavery too, probably more than it condemns homosexuality. If Watchtower makes a cartoon about slavery should we not be "over outraged" because everyone knows that's in the bible?

 +7 / -0
Simon
Simon 2 days ago

You don't seem to understand what discrimination actually is. I'm talking about something real, not what analogy they used to explain their bible belief. You know they are not really talking about preventing gay people getting on planes ... right?
For example, someone can believe that Asian people tend to drive slow but that is not discriminating against them. If they refused to give any Asians work in their taxi company just on the basis of being Asian then they would be discriminating. Can you see how it works?
You like using "If" but that is simply trying to switch things to something that can be argued.
I'm asking you to explain what discriminatory action they are promoting. How is Sophie going to discriminate against someone? What is she taught that she has to do or not do based on her friends parents sexuality?
It should be very easy, given how blatantly homophobic and promoting of discrimination you think it is.
 +6 / -1
Lieu
Lieu 2 days ago

As a retired LEO Commander, the video passes the test for discrimination. A title 6/7 fed case. That's the only and last time I'm going to say it.
Believe what you want.
Freedom of religion means you don't get to impose yours on other people. Period.
 +6 / -1
freemindfade
freemindfade 2 days ago

dis·crim·i·na·tiondəˌskriməˈnāSH(ə)n/noun1.the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex.
When the cartoon begins Sophia puts out what her teacher has explained to her about the same sex couple (not discrimination) upon hearing this Mom makes the case to change that perception.

“Carrie drew two mommies,” “She told me they’re married to each other. My teacher says that all that matters is that people love each other and that they’re happy"
“Hmm. Well, people have their own ideas about what is right and wrong,”. “But what matters is how Jehovah feels. (Your teacher is wrong).
Then comparing gay people to contraband luggage is pretty low. If you don't think that's too much, that's fine Simon, you are free to feel that way. Yes the video uses metaphors over overt language but the message is clear. metaphor or not.

 +5 / -2
Simon
Simon 2 days ago

Freedom of religion means you don't get to impose yours on other people. Period.
I agree, but again, where has this happened? Where have they imposed their religious will on someone else? That would definitely be discrimination, did I miss the part of the video instructing them to do this?
Yes the video uses metaphors over overt language but the message is clear. metaphor or not.
But you said it was clearly teaching discrimination - can't you explain what form of discrimination it's teaching?
You posted the definition:
the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people
What treatment, in the video, did they promote?
 +3 / -2
freemindfade
freemindfade 2 days ago
1.Jehovah set the rules and not he doesn't like homos
2.That's why we preach our message because people can change
3.What's Sophia gonna do, preach the message, oh hallelujah!!
Not that complicated, its is after all a cartoon...
She is going back to what I assume is a public school, a place i would like to be a "religious agenda free zone". ..
Not for JWS though.
 +3 / -4

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Maybe I'm Just Ignorant About the New "Anti-Gay" Video
by turtleturtle 3 days ago 146 Replies latest a day ago   jw friends
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Lieu
Lieu 2 days ago

I'm trained to see it, Simon. It doesn't get past me.
It's imposed when the child tells her counterpart. What part of that are you not getting fella??????
Unlike Elders, I'm actually certified and trained in these matters.
 +6 / -4
freemindfade
freemindfade 2 days ago
The moment she opens her mouth to preach to her school mate, the discrimination of the parent is passed on.
 +7 / -3
Lieu
Lieu 2 days ago

Lord Jesus thank you freemindfade...
 +6 / -3
freemindfade
freemindfade 2 days ago
Lol
 +3 / -1
Simon
Simon 2 days ago

The moment she opens her mouth to preach to her school mate, the discrimination of the parent is passed on.
But there was nothing in the video itself suggesting that she talk about anything but paradise and animals.
And that is not actual discrimination which is what you claimed it was promoting and how does one "pass on discrimination" exactly? I thought it was already defined as "treatment".
You can claim it promoted a negative attitude toward gays and that they are not considered compatible with the bible as interpreted by the WTS. That would be accurate.
I'm actually certified and trained in these matters
Great, so you'll be able to explain the discrimination being promoted?
 +4 / -3
cofty
cofty 2 days ago

there was nothing in the video itself suggesting that she talk about anything but paradise and animals - Simon
This point has been missed a hundred times on this forum in the past couple of weeks.
As a retired LEO Commander... - Lieu
What's one of those?
 +5 / -1
freemindfade
freemindfade 2 days ago

Comparing homosexuals to contraband luggage IS discrimination. Just because its a metaphor doesn't make it nice. The whole premise of the video is the other little girls parents are bad. Most people can see that watching this once through.



 +4 / -4
cofty
cofty 2 days ago

Comparing homosexuals to contraband luggage IS discrimination.
Gay sexual relationships are compared to objects that are not allowed on a plane.
 +1 / -0
freemindfade
freemindfade 2 days ago
Whats the implication then?
 +1 / -1
freemindfade
freemindfade 2 days ago
Is the message of the video that 1. Gay people are not going to paradise and 2. that they can be changed? is it or is it not? I don't want some little JW brat telling my daughter that kind of crap in school. School is not a kingdom hall.
 +3 / -2

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Maybe I'm Just Ignorant About the New "Anti-Gay" Video
by turtleturtle 3 days ago 146 Replies latest a day ago   jw friends
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littlerockguy
littlerockguy 2 days ago

In looking at the definition of discrimination, I think the cartoon shows an element of bias toward heterosexuality, shows an element of bigotry, one-sidedness and demonstrates favoritism of straights over gays
dis·crim·i·na·tion
dəˌskriməˈnāSH(ə)n/
noun
noun: discrimination; plural noun: discriminations

1.1.

the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex.
"victims of racial discrimination"
synonyms: prejudice, bias, bigotry, intolerance, narrow-mindedness, unfairness, inequity, favoritism, one-sidedness, partisanship; 
 
 

 +6 / -0
cofty
cofty 2 days ago

Is the message of the video that 1. Gay people are not going to paradise and 2. that they can be changed? - FMF
The message is ...
1 - People in same-sex relationships are not getting into paradise.
2 - People can choose to stop having gay sex.
The bible says so.
JW children tell their schoolmates all sorts of nonsense.
 +4 / -1
cofty
cofty 2 days ago

I think the cartoon shows an element of bias toward heterosexuality - LRG
In other news the pope wears a silly hat.
 +4 / -0
freemindfade
freemindfade 2 days ago

The whole thing is a good example of how JWS try to make the water cloudy on things like abuse, shunning and other sensitive subjects. Just because they make it cloudy won't make me deny what it is.
Maybe cofty and simon can clearly tell me what the video promotes. Because clearly me and a lot of other don't understand it the way they do.
1 - People in same-sex relationships are not getting into paradise. What does that mean?
2 - People can choose to stop having gay sex. When does it say "gay sex"??????



 +5 / -1
cofty
cofty 2 days ago

Maybe cofty and simon can clearly tell me what the video promotes - FMF
It promotes the belief that JWs should not be influenced by the changing attitudes of "the world" towards gay marriage.
 +3 / -1
freemindfade
freemindfade 2 days ago

If it was the 60's and someone made a video like this about biracial marriage, what would be the implication Cofty? discrimination or not?
And "not being influenced" and preaching your views on homosexuals and getting into paradise are not the same thing. You are leaving off the preaching bit.
 +3 / -2
cofty
cofty 2 days ago

Where does the bible condemn interracial marriage?
You are leaving off the preaching bit
What preaching bit?
"But there was nothing in the video itself suggesting that she talk about anything but paradise and animals." - Simon

 +2 / -1
freemindfade
freemindfade 2 days ago

Where does the bible condemn interracial marriage?
What does that have to do with discrimination??? does the source/origin somehow absolve it ???, Israelites were taught to not mix with the nations. there ya go. Who care if its from the bible or any other book of ignorance.
The point is teaching your kids biracial marriage is wrong or gay marriage is wrong is the same damn thing. And its sick for anyone to make a cartoon about it
"But there was nothing in the video itself suggesting that she talk about anything but paradise and animals." - Simon
Yea that is exactly the way active witness talk about homosexuals. they just talk about panda's and polo's tucked into pleated khaki's and a garden. lol
Again witnesses speak very ugly and abusively of homosexuals. The implication and point of the video accomplishes what it is suppose to. Discrimination.
 +4 / -2
sparrowdown
sparrowdown 2 days ago

Why do you think the video was made for children? The video is in childish ambiguous paradise-speak for a reason. They couldn't make an adult version of this and get away with it. For one thing adults would be able to connect the dots of the message and tell the nosy witness where the hell to get off. WT likes to hide their propoganda in fairytale scenarios that have no bearing on real life. Just like all their stupid demos and what-not at meetimgs and assemblies.
The good news is I think kids today are smarter than this video.
 +9 / -0
freemindfade
freemindfade 2 days ago

Why do you think the video was made for children? The video is in childish ambiguous paradise-speak for a reason. They couldn't make an adult version of this and get away with it.
Very good point
Cofty and SImon i feel like you are playing along with the witness ignorance of the awful things they promote.
can you imagine a witness saying "we don't shun people, we just don't let them on the plane, they have to leave the airport" whelp guess they don't practice barbaric shunning because they said it like that. lol come on now.
 +4 / -2

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Maybe I'm Just Ignorant About the New "Anti-Gay" Video
by turtleturtle 3 days ago 146 Replies latest a day ago   jw friends
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cofty
cofty 2 days ago

does the source/origin somehow absolve it?
No but it explains it.
Many faith groups are softening their stance on gay marriage. The child comes home saying that her teacher said gay marriage is ok and that the only thing that matters is that people love one another - well said teacher.
The problem is the bible unequivocally condemns gay relationships.
Mother tells child that Jehovah has rules about getting into paradise and gay relationships are not allowed.
Mother tells child to tell her school friend about pandas.
Serious question - What would you have them do or say? Do you think it is possible for them to change their rules and allow gay weddings at Kingdom Halls? What would the consequences be on the R&F?
 +3 / -0
steve2
steve2 2 days ago

Again, I am with Cofty and Simon on this. Of course there are "levels" of communication that can be deduced from the video - but adhering to what is actually stated in the video, you'd be hard pressed to specify "discrimination".
To repeat from at least three earlier threads on this exhaustively discussed video: When Sophie asks, What should she say to her school friend, her JW mother says talk about Paradise and playing with the animals.
Yet, time and time and time again, posters claim Sophie will now go back to her school friend and criticise the friend's two mothers. I guess she could - but that is not what the video even hints she should say.
Does Sophie's JW mother tell her to avoid the company of her school friend? No. But I guess a JW parent could direct their child to do so. But that is not even what the video even hints at.
And we already know that JWs in actuality choose to distance themselves from all kinds of people - even their own "brothers and sisters" if they do not measure up. It may seem like cold comfort I know, but JWs atrocious views on others extend way beyond sexuality.  They have raised discrimination to a religious art form in which sexuality is but one of innumerable "Must to Avoid" categories.
This is an unfortunate example of people allowing their understandable sensitivity to get in the way of what the video actually states.
Do I think the video is homophobic. There's a cautious "Yes" from me but certainly not a strong sense that it is neither blatant nor excessive from a religious group known for its adherence to Biblical views on sexual relationships (and that is not an endorsement from me by the way).
 +6 / -1
sparrowdown
sparrowdown 2 days ago

Yeah, I see the connection a child's drawing of her two mothers which Sophia spies out, pulls it down off the blackboard, and pulls an icky face. Sophia then goes home tells Mom about the two mommies drawing which prompts a bizarre illustration about planes and luggage with the conclusion being "tell so-and-so about the paradise." Yeah makes soo much sense.
 +3 / -0
krejames
krejames 2 days ago

I genuinely can't make my mind up on this. My boyfriend had seen the video on Pinknews and told me he thought it was ridiculous how the ex-JWs were portraying it as homophobic etc. It's just doing what religions do best...
I kind of agree. BUT at the end of the day, "homophobic" is just a technicality. Who cares? There is no doubt in my mind this is a very dangerous video purely because of the unhealthy effect if will have on gay JW children. I remember all too well what that was like and at one point being on the brink of suicide.
Replace "two mommies" with any two ethnic minorities and I don't think we would be having a debate about whether the video were discriminatory or racist. Or that JWs are entitled to believe what they like as long as they were not actually promoting discriminatory behaviour like refusing to serve ethnic minorities in a shop. It's subtle. Cleverly subtle. But maybe my boyfriend is right, arguing as to whether it is homophobic is ridiculous and just makes us gay xjws look bad.
But that wouldnt stop me expressing my disgust to a JW about this dangerous video if the chance came up to do so.
 +3 / -0
Simon
Simon 2 days ago

Maybe cofty and simon can clearly tell me what the video promotes. Because clearly me and a lot of other don't understand it the way they do.
Well I think it's pretty obvious what the video promotes. It's the idea that the bible is the word of god, and god (via the bible) condemns homosexuality and says not to practice it. There is no message of hate or any hint of a suggestion that people be discriminated against however. Just as with anyone who won't get into paradise for whatever reason, they believe that is all up to god to handle (they are a hands-off religion).
Cofty and SImon i feel like you are playing along with the witness ignorance of the awful things they promote.
Far from it, I'm just not joining in calling something awful when it really isn't. Of all the bible beliefs and religious attitudes towards homosexuals, the WTS must rank along some of the very mildest. I think most of the comments about this video are based on what people would like for it to have contained to justify the inappropriate outrage when the reality is, it isn't as they portray it. I doubt many have even watched it.
For some, even that is clearly too much and the place to battle. Personally, I think it simply makes people look petty and foolish and too much outrage over too little tends to piss away goodwill that people have for any 'cause and the ones doing it look increasingly like whiners who just want to find fault in anything and everything.
can you imagine a witness saying "we don't shun people, we just don't let them on the plane, they have to leave the airport" whelp guess they don't practice barbaric shunning because they said it like that. lol come on now
If they said that then it would be right to challenge them on it and call it out. That is your problem - all the way through you add "IF" and insert your own convenient example of what would be hypocritical and / or discriminatory. But none of that means that they say the things you claim in the video.
So final chance - do you want to admit that they are not actually teaching discrimination in it?
Discrimination is a very real and insidious thing and I'd rather not see a real issue which is a real problem for people conflated with some imaginary "oh no, my feelings were hurt" first-world pretend problem.
If someone walks into a shop wearing a hijab and the owner refuses to serve them because of it, are they being discriminated against? It depends - if they have a sign saying no helmets, hoodies etc... then no. If they just don't like muslims then yes. No one should ever be told that they can't get what the next person in line is going to buy simply because they are gay, black, short, fat or anything else (except maybe a United supporter).
At some point things move beyond inconveniences of buying cakes and such and into the realm of impacting people's lives (issuing marriage licenses, not giving people jobs) and real life and death issues (can an EMS responder refuse to treat a gay man?).
Yes, REAL issues. Not "someone else is teaching their kid that their pretend god isn't going to invite me to their make -believe world".
 +5 / -2
Simon
Simon 2 days ago

The implication and point of the video accomplishes what it is suppose to. Discrimination.
Still, you haven't said what discrimination it accomplishes. Do you even know what discrimination is? I gave some examples to make things clearer.
Replace "two mommies" with any two ethnic minorities and I don't think we would be having a debate about whether the video were discriminatory or racist.
The bible is the issue for things like that. You can't replace it with black people or anything else not quotable because then it's clearly invented and they don't have the fallback of "it says so in the bible" (because the bible does say those things). I think that is what some people are missing when they try to compare it to interracial marriage etc.
There is still the difference between opinions and beliefs and discrimination. Discrimination is a real manifestation of the belief, the belief in itself is not discrimination unless it's applied. Someone can have racist opinions for instance, but not be guilty of contravening someone's civil rights but if they do the latter, they likely have racist opinions.
Or that JWs are entitled to believe what they like as long as they were not actually promoting discriminatory behaviour like refusing to serve ethnic minorities in a shop. It's subtle. Cleverly subtle.
I agree. They know where the line is and they are much cleverer than, well, many of us it seems so stay well away from it. There are lots of things they could have said that would still have fallen under the banner of "the bible tells us so" but they didn't. The message was pretty mild, especially for a conservative christian religious group. I can understand why some see more into it than it actually contains. Being objective, especially when something is emotive and may have had such an impact on people's personal lives, is very difficult. That's why it's important to have some rational voices play devils advocate and question if things are really as some are claiming them to be.
 +3 / -1
freemindfade
freemindfade 2 days ago
Steve2 cofty and Simon. With a simple yes or no answer if this video with the exact same message and presentation dealt with biracial couples instead of homosexual would it be considered discrimination? Yes or no? If everything you are pontificating on is true you should be able to just say no. Go ahead.
 +1 / -2
Simon
Simon 2 days ago

With a simple yes or no answer if this video with the exact same message and presentation dealt with biracial couples instead of homosexual would it be considered discrimination? Yes or no?
No. But then you don't seem to have a clue what discrimination actually *is* which is a significant part of the issue.
Most people would consider it racist because it wouldn't 'benefit' from the cover that the bible provides for other outdated views.
Let me ask you a question: if I tell my child that you lack the magical power to get into Hogwarts, have you been discriminated against?
 +3 / -2
cofty
cofty 2 days ago

if this video ... dealt with biracial couples
It doesn't.
There are plenty things to condemn the cult for without inventing hypothetical crimes.
 +4 / -0
freemindfade
freemindfade 2 days ago

So condemning a biracial couple and a same sex couple are tantamount or not? What's the difference? Whether is bible or harry potter..
 +0 / -2

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Maybe I'm Just Ignorant About the New "Anti-Gay" Video
by turtleturtle 3 days ago 146 Replies latest a day ago   jw friends
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Jehalapeno
Jehalapeno 2 days ago

Simon you just said that the video isn't awful.
Surely you're just referring to the quality of the animation. Because the message that "God doesn't let gays into paradise," although in line with what the bible says, is an awful awful message.
 +1 / -1
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 2 days ago

Put it this way. Imagine the video said black people can't get into paradise. Imagine it then said "people can change". It doesn't matter how polite you make that message or if you avoid direct insults. The message itself is simply out of order.
Like it or not, the next generation of young people think bigotry based on sexuality is just as unacceptable as racism. It doesn't matter if it's tradition (so was racism) or commonplace (so was racism) or supported by reference to the Bible (so was racism) or a matter of religious freedom (so was racism).
Ultimately none of those excuses cut any ice because we are all human beings and for 95% of humans to say to the other 5% that they must have no prospect of any intimate life or else they will be branded sinners for destruction is just simply unacceptable. It is hate speech. End of story.
 +4 / -2
cofty
cofty 2 days ago

It is hate speech. End of story.- SBF
So what do you think the cult should do?
Should they sanction gay weddings in the Kingdom Hall and appoint elders who are in gay relationships?
 +1 / -0
freemindfade
freemindfade 2 days ago

Cofty you asked me a question earlier but I was driving about what I would do. Well now I would tell my daughter her teacher is right. Before I was exjw I might have struggled to explain it in a nice way (as I was never good at judging people). But I would have had a discrimination mentality no matter how soft I tried yo make it and I would be passing it along to my daughter. If there was a scale for discrimination this might not be between 5-10 but it would be on the scale.
The reasons that you guys protest for the video are the things that I think make it so insidieous and ugly. Trying to paint dissemination as a cute kids story with safe words that isnite hate without saying it.
 +0 / -2
littlerockguy
littlerockguy 2 days ago

Cofty,
Why not have them sanction gay weddings. Turning a place of worship into a house of commerce is condemned in the bible also but they make allowances for that with their debit/credit card machines in their worship centers. Overlapping generation equalling 1 generation isn't biblical either. Jesus was silent about homosexuality. Isn't he is the one to closely follow and not Paul (was was the one who condemned men being together in his letters)?
LRG
 +2 / -1
cofty
cofty 2 days ago

The reasons that you guys protest for the video....
Careful. Nobody is "for" the video.
 +2 / -0
cofty
cofty 2 days ago
LRG - were you ever a JW?
 
Jehalapeno
Jehalapeno 2 days ago

It's a weird moment when I agree with Slimboyfat over Cofty.
 +1 / -0
littlerockguy
littlerockguy 2 days ago

Cofty,
I was baptized in 1987
 
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 2 days ago

It depends what you mean by "should do". There are lots of things I think they should do, like stop shunning, report crimes, allow transfusions, promote education, promote civic involvement. But at the end of it they wouldn't be JWs any more I suppose. And no bad thing some might say.
But perhaps by "should do" you mean "what realistically can they do while maintaining their organisation?" At the moment probably not a lot, realistically. It would cause major problems if they suddenly accepted gay marriage right now.
They can shut up about it however. No one forced them to make a video on this topic.
Plus we can't assume the pressures will always be the same. If societal trends continue, time may come when 90% of the public support gay marriage, and increasing numbers of JWs support gay marriage too. What then? It may reach a point where it's more painful to stick to bigotry than it is to change. At that point, or knowing JWs a few years after that point has already been reached, then they will change policy.
The rationale for,doing so has been tried and tested by other religious groups. Simply endorse the idea of stable relationships of all sorts, categorise married gay couples as conforming to a conventional stable framework, and bless away. Say the Old Testament is out of date, Paul didn't refer to gay sex inside marriage, and hey presto. You got yourself a formula for gay JW couples.
 +1 / -1

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Maybe I'm Just Ignorant About the New "Anti-Gay" Video
by turtleturtle 3 days ago 146 Replies latest a day ago   jw friends
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cofty
cofty 2 days ago

Jesus was silent about homosexuality. Isn't he is the one to closely follow and not Paul (was was the one who condemned men being together in his letters)? - LRG
So do you really think they could throw all of Paul's writings in the bin and still expect not to go out of business in a heartbeat?
Say the Old Testament is out of date. - SBF
You have lost the plot. They are an OT religion!
So all they have to do is tear all of the OT and all of Paul's letters out the bible and sanction gay weddings.
Sorted!
 +2 / -0
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 2 days ago

They routinely call the Old Testament out of date over things like the sabbath. You were a JW weren't you?
Plus they readily ignore a great many texts in the New Testament. There are a dozen or more New Testament texts that talk about hell fire, torment, forever and ever and so on. They explain away every single one.
Of course they can reinterpret the text to suit themselves. They are masters at it. The question is not can it be done. It can be done. The question is when the pressure for them to change will become sufficient for them to do it.

 +1 / -1
cofty
cofty 2 days ago

They routinely call the Old Testament out of date over things like the sabbath.
No they don't. They use NT texts to explain why keeping the Law is not binding on christians. The NT specifically says not to worry about keeping the sabbath. "You were a JW weren't you?"
Problem is the NT is just as unambiguously opposed to gay relationships as the OT.
Opposition to gay marriage is so deeply ingrained in JWs it will never happen.
I don't understand this unrealistic fantasy about a new friendlier JW organisation. It is beyond redemption.
 +3 / -0
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 2 days ago

Of course that is the point. They say the OT doesn't apply because it's been replaced.
The NT teaches hell fire. It doesn't stop JWs claiming the opposite. And texts on homosexuality have arguably more wriggle room than hell fire texts. They only refer to certain kinds of relationships which aguably don't apply if gay people get married.
Personally I never thought gay marriage would happen at all ten years ago. It seemed like a contradiction in terms to my brain then. I've seen veteran gay activists interviewed say even they never dreamed it would happen. Funny how things change!
JWs can change too. In fact the Pew suvey suggests they are already changing because 50% more JWs accepted gay people in 2014 than 7 years earlier. At that rate it won't take long!
 +2 / -1
krejames
krejames 2 days ago

To everyone saying that the bible backs up the message in the video, I respectfully disagree. The bible says nothing about homosexuality in particular a loving romantic relationship between two people of the same sex (unless you include Jonathan and David). it only goes so far as to condemn intercourse between two men*.
Like I said in another thread on this subject- those two mommies might well have had a celibate relationship. It's no one's place to make judgements about what may or may not go on behind closed doors. The witnesses consistently go beyond what the bible actually says. The message of this video is that the family unit would need to break up if they want to enter paradise. And that anyone who is homosexual can change their orientation.
The comparison with racism is right. Because the witnesses did used to teach a racist message which they used the bible to justify. Only time has changed that. The bible is still the same. No one would now argue that the witnesses message of 70 years ago or so wasn't racist. I think it will be the same with their message about homosexuality. Indeed it is already.
*edit - and even then it's only mentioned in the context of orgies or illicit or pagan practices.

 
cofty
cofty 2 days ago

It's no one's place to make judgements about what may or may not go on behind closed doors.
You and I know that.
They will DF a hetrosexual couple for spending a night together in the same house unchaperoned.
 +1 / -0
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 2 days ago

Russell suggested that black people would turn white in the new system.
This video says gay people can change if they want to get to paradise.
One day (already here for many) we'll view those two statements as equally offensive and (perhaps crucially) equally bizarre.
 +3 / -1
just fine
just fine 2 days ago

I think the video is ridiculous and hope they get a lot of bad publicity out of it.
But I think I see what some are trying to say. When a baker doesn't make a cake for a gay couple it is discriminatory. The cake is tangible and has been made for many straight couples. Therefore it should be available to anyone who wants a cake.
Paradise is a made up place, that you get to with (ever changing) made up rules. And no one can ever prove that a straight person made it to paradise and a gay person did not.
So it's not okay to discriminate in real world situations, but we can all have whatever made up rules, affecting made up places we want.
Do I have the argument right? Just trying to understand,not trying to start a shit-storm.
 +5 / -0
cofty
cofty 2 days ago

Strawman once again SBF.
Nobody is defending the video as being objectively right. I realise you must get a buzz of righteous indignation by pretending you are arguing with a watchtower apologist. You are not.
Why is anybody the least bit surprised and feigning outrage when a bunch of biblical literalists take a position on a biblical prohibition?
 +5 / -0
Simon
Simon 2 days ago

So condemning a biracial couple and a same sex couple are tantamount or not? What's the difference? Whether is bible or harry potter.
There is a difference (to them) as someone can abstain from sex, you can't abstain from your race.
Simon you just said that the video isn't awful. Surely you're just referring to the quality of the animation. Because the message that "God doesn't let gays into paradise," although in line with what the bible says, is an awful awful message.
No, it's not the awful video of homophobia peaching hate and discrimination that some have claimed and certainly been unable to demonstrate in any cohesive way.
That is not the same thing as praising it as some black/white thinkers will no doubt interpret it.
I think most of the bible is crap, but it is what it is and the video is a very mild interpretation of it.
Imagine the video said ...
Except it doesn't, so why bother?
Imagine it said "SBF is a genius" ... then would you praise it? These "what if it said this" games are ludicrous and pointless. Let's all pretend it says to sacrifice babies in a furnace. There ya' go - tell the newspapers. I mean, if we're not going to base it on facts then we may as well make up whatever we want to make our case, eh? Is that how it works?
Like it or not, the next generation of young people think bigotry based on sexuality is just as unacceptable as racism.
Neither are "won" battles.
It is hate speech. End of story.
Except it isn't. I think your argument ended though.
But I would have had a discrimination mentality no matter how soft I tried yo make it and I would be passing it along to my daughter. If there was a scale for discrimination this might not be between 5-10 but it would be on the scale.
Wow, so far in and still you are clueless as to what discrimination is.
To everyone saying that the bible backs up the message in the video, I respectfully disagree. The bible says nothing about homosexuality
That's simply not true. It says plenty and in pretty direct terms:
https://carm.org/bible-homosexuality
.
At the end of the day, and what I think many people don't "get", is that they have their religious belief based on the bible interpretation, that marriage is strictly between man and woman and you don't have to like it but you have to respect it. They are entitled to hold that belief, they are allowed to teach it to their kids, they are allowed to preach that belief to others and while they don't (as other groups do), they would be entitled to campaign politically to promote that belief to be law.
Personally, I disagree with most bible based beliefs because I think it's a book of crap. But I can recognize that their belief is at least consistent with the bible and is defensible from that position.
Just as someone else being gay or not shouldn't matter to us, so someone else being religious and believing what they want about who they want shouldn't matter to us either. Freedom isn't just allowing the things you like and banning everything you don't.
What is of consequence is whether people a) use hate speech and b) promote and practice discrimination (actual discrimination, not whatever freemindfade thinks it is). At that point they trespass into an area where the law can step in and hold them accountable for violating other people's rights.
But they haven't, not with this video.
 +6 / -0

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Maybe I'm Just Ignorant About the New "Anti-Gay" Video
by turtleturtle 3 days ago 146 Replies latest a day ago   jw friends
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slimboyfat
slimboyfat 2 days ago

Strawman once again SBF.
Nobody is defending the video as being objectively right
Huh? Where did I say that?
 +0 / -1
Simon
Simon 2 days ago

But I think I see what some are trying to say. When a baker doesn't make a cake for a gay couple it is discriminatory. The cake is tangible and has been made for many straight couples. Therefore it should be available to anyone who wants a cake.
Exactly.
Paradise is a made up place, that you get to with (ever changing) made up rules. And no one can ever prove that a straight person made it to paradise and a gay person did not.
Bingo. To make it be actual discrimination would require that we prove the WTS was right and paradise is real ... but then if they are right then god exists then he does get to make the rules and decide what he wants to do with gay people. i.e. there is no real scenario where it's discrimination.
So it's not okay to discriminate in real world situations, but we can all have whatever made up rules, affecting made up places we want.
Do I have the argument right? Just trying to understand,not trying to start a shit-storm.
Yes, that is exactly what I've been saying. Anyone claiming the video is itself discriminatory simply doesn't understand the meaning of the word and neither is it promoting discrimination. People have the chance to explain how they thought it was, they were unable to offer their explanation.
Furthermore I don't think it's without any cost to overextend criticism. It hurts credibility of future criticism of the WTS and doesn't convince independents who look at it and think "yeah, maybe those apostates are just bitter".
And yes, there are people who do suffer REAL discrimination and I'm sorry, if I had and I found some people claiming that video was the same thing I'd be pretty angry because it's simply not.
 +5 / -0
JWdaughter
JWdaughter 2 days ago
I don't know about any of what the Labels would be for that video, but I do know that the WT has just drawn attention to itself by this and is now on the radar of human rights groups. So, no issue with that.
 +4 / -0
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 2 days ago

There is a difference (to them) as someone can abstain from sex, you can't abstain from your race.
There are two things wrong with this statement that a JW might make.
1. Gay people aren't simply being asked to abstain from sex the way unmarried heterosexual JWs are. They are told to renounce any possibility of a satisfying intimate relationship on pain of being branded a sinner fit for destruction. This is in no way equal to an unmarried JW who may hope and aspire to an intimate relationship even if it never happens.
2. People modify their race all the time. Unless they conceive of "race" as some fixed genetic category rather than a socially costructed marker of identity. In which case I think we are in different centuries.
 +0 / -6
cofty
cofty 2 days ago

Gay people aren't simply being asked to abstain from sex the way unmarried heterosexual JWs are. They are told to renounce any possibility of a satisfying intimate relationship
Around half of males in the LGBT community identify as bisexual.
For them having sex with another man is a choice.
In your opinion is it equally wrong for the WT to refuse them the right to make that choice?
 +4 / -0
bennyk
bennyk 2 days ago

The Watch Tower Society has violated no one's civil rights with this video.
No one is obligated to become a Jehovah's Witness.
 +4 / -1
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 2 days ago

I agree with you there is choice and upbringing involved in sexuality (I am not an essentialist). That's not a get out of jail free card for bigotry. There's an element of choice with regard to race too. You can emphasise, modify or erase this or that aspect of racial identity too. It doesn't make racism alright.
Even if we allow for bigotry against bisexual people (on the basis of tenuous and selective conceptions of "choice") what about those who identify as homosexual and not bisexual?
 +1 / -0
Simon
Simon 2 days ago

This is in no way equal to an unmarried JW who may hope and aspire to an intimate relationship even if it never happens
So *not* having gay sex is different to *not* having straight sex?
People modify their race all the time
I think that's an exaggeration and, frankly, idiotic. I can only think of MJ and that Rachel Dolezol woman who was white and claimed to be black last year.
The point was made to your comment comparing gay people being celibate with black people changing color.
 +5 / -0
Billy the Ex-Bethelite
Billy the Ex-Bethelite 2 days ago

Can someone tell me, specifically, was homophobic about the new "Anti-gay" WT video. Particularly, what showed an "irrational fear", "aversion", or "discrimination"?
The entire JW belief system and all WT teachings are based on "irrational fear" of so many things, from plastic toy wizards to a cataclismic armageddon that is always just around the corner. They have an "aversion" to everything from cartoons about warrior wizards to asking questions that are just a little too apostate. And "discrimination"? They don't just discriminate against all "worldly" people, they discriminate against their fellow JWs for some of the most trivial of reasons!
When someone has a fear of everything, should we be surprised for them to tell the world that they're afraid of spiders?

With their "One Dude, One Non-dude" video, I think they're pretty tame on their condemnation of homosexuality compared to most of the previous things we've read and heard from WT on the subject. At least the video mom didn't scream "OH GROSS! Now I've got to scrub you in bleach so you don't catch HOMO! And we're homeschooling you from now on! Armageddon can't come soon enough to rain rocks on the heads of all the worldly people, especially those gays parading around in the tightest of pants!" No, WT would probably save that message for the cartoon when Caleb comes home and tells his mom that some apostates tried to offer him candy and talk to him.
Don't get me wrong, I think the video is horrible and dripping with cult poison, But it has about the same level of hatred and discrimination toward gays that WT shows toward all worldly people, and some JWs that are doing enough or wear pants that are too tight.

What I'm not sure about though is the situation with the dude and the duffle bag as an illustration of being gay. Was the dude gay and he had his dwarf boyfriend in the carry-on bag? Or was he straight, but had certain sex toys in the bag that aren't allowed around pandas? In which case, it isn't so much that the video is anti-gay, it's just really, really weird.

 +3 / -0
krejames
krejames 2 days ago

To everyone saying that the bible backs up the message in the video, I respectfully disagree. The bible says nothing about homosexuality
That's simply not true. It says plenty and in pretty direct terms:"
erm, actually no it doesn't. the sex act is a part of homosexuality but it is not homosexuality.The bible only speaks about the sex act (and arguable only anal sex). It does not speak about homosexuality. I'm sure you would agree that heterosexuality is so much more than simply a man and woman having penetrative sex.
 +2 / -0

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Maybe I'm Just Ignorant About the New "Anti-Gay" Video
by turtleturtle 3 days ago 146 Replies latest a day ago   jw friends
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slimboyfat
slimboyfat 2 days ago

Having no prospect of an intimate relationship is different than having the possibility of an intimate relationship even if it never happens. Radically different.
Modifying one's racial Idenity is extremely common, from subtle to extreme.
 +0 / -1
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 2 days ago

Why is anybody the least bit surprised and feigning outrage when a bunch of biblical literalists take a position on a biblical prohibition.
How come you don't go on threads discussing shunning or blood saying:
Why is anybody the least bit surprised and feigning outrage when a bunch of biblical literalists take a position on a biblical practice of shunning?
Or,
How can you expect them to change their stance on blood it would destroy them!
Why is this particular strain of pragmatic incredulity reserved for threads where people argue that homophobic JW teaching is unacceptable?
 +6 / -2
just fine
just fine 2 days ago

According to the JWs everyone on this site is going be baggage left at the airport right along with gay people and anyone else who doesn't agree with them. They are equal opportunity paradise barring people.
See you all at the baggage claim 🍻
 +8 / -0
Diogenesister
Diogenesister 2 days ago

Like someone can just drop homosexual leanings or desires like a dropping a piece of carry-on luggage.
Its worse than that...they expect gay people to just drop their loved one like a piece of carry-on luggage too....oh hang on, they already expect people to do that with their kids, fathers, mothers, wives, grandfathers,aunties, cousins...etc...at least then they are equal opportunities shunners!!
 +3 / -0
Coded Logic
Coded Logic 2 days ago
Except of course that you're allowed to have "kids, fathers, mothers, wives, grandfathers,aunties, cousins...etc.." However, homosexuals are not allowed to have partners. Not exactly "equal opportunity shunning" here.
 +1 / -0
Diogenesister
Diogenesister 2 days ago

At that point they trespass into an area where the law can step in and hold them accountable for violating other people's rights.
You are right , but I do think WT are treading on thin ice with this one. Essentially the video is a) teaching their kids to be bigoted and b) telling them to go preach that bigotry to their schoolmate with gay parents.
Given that most schools in the US and UK etc aim to create a safe environment for ALL pupils regardless of creed, religion, sexual preference and family background etc a kid going JW sherrif all over school and making fellow pupils feel like shit in the process is likely to cause a shitstorm if said gay parents are inclined to make an issue of it. I don't know where all this would lead but I do know one thing, the JW kid is likely to have another viewpoint vehemently rammed down her throat by the school board . A good thing of course but not from a dub parents point of veiw.
 +1 / -0
ILoveTTATT2
ILoveTTATT2 2 days ago

Here's my opinion on this:
Simon implies that there is no discrimination because the mom tells Sophia to tell her classmate about pandas.
I can see a couple of things happening.
Suppose Sophia goes and tells her classmate about the pandas. Her classmate, being a kid, is like "cool! I want to pet pandas too! How?"
And Sophia goes, "Well, you have to follow Jehovah's rules. And Jehovah's rules say that no one who is practicing homosexuality can go into paradise."
"Girl is like, but my two mommy's are gay!"
Sophia says, "well, they can change and please Jehovah, and you can be in paradise with them petting pandas"!
girl says: "what happens if they don't change?"
Sophia: "well... (Hesitates)... The Bible says they will be destroyed at armageddon."
The classmate gets scared, has trauma thinking that her moms are going to be murdered by God.
Scenario 2:
Kid being raised by JW's sees this video. He knows that he likes boys, not girls. He feels horrible and prays and prays to Jehovah to make him like girls, but to no avail.
Whether discriminatory or not or homophobic or not... The fact is, this video can result in extreme harm, up to and including suicide.
On another note, the Spanish Wikipedia suggests that the word "homonegative" be used instead of "homophobic" because of the first response of lots of people being "it's not a phobia"!
Cofty, you likely get pissed off when people say "it's only a theory" regarding evolution.
Let's leave semantics aside and focus on the potential harm this video could cause.
I see many good reasons why the video should be denounced.
I agree with SBF, they could STFU about homosexuality.
 +3 / -0
Simon
Simon 2 days ago

I do think WT are treading on thin ice with this one. Essentially the video is a) teaching their kids to be bigoted and b) telling them to go preach that bigotry to their schoolmate with gay parents.
Except it does neither of those things.
Given that most schools in the US and UK etc aim to create a safe environment for ALL pupils regardless of creed, religion, sexual preference and family background etc a kid going JW sherrif all over school and making fellow pupils feel like shit in the process is likely to cause a shitstorm if said gay parents are inclined to make an issue of it. I don't know where all this would lead but I do know one thing, the JW kid is likely to have another viewpoint vehemently rammed down her throat by the school board . A good thing of course but not from a dub parents point of veiw.
So here's how it also works - why is the teacher "preaching" gay marriage to the religious kids?
Again, where in the video is it suggested that the JW child be in any way judgmental of other people's choices? The parent says "other people make their own decisions".
What would you have the message be?
Heck, when I was at school it would have been "why do you have worldly friends?!?!" so they have progressed since then. Now JW kids can hang around with kids with gay parents. Pretty amazing.
I can see a couple of things happening.
We could write lots of alternative endings both positive and negative. None of them alter the content of the video itself. The child with the gay parents could become depressed and bring a gun to school to shoot everyone. Who knows. If we're playing "what might happen" then we can make up literally anything.
 +4 / -1
sparrowdown
sparrowdown 2 days ago

In the video there is a buffer between Sophia and the classmate as she goes home and tells mom who then tells her what to do. But in reality the message will be given directly to the kids because it's a video designed for kids.
Kids are not known for their tactfulness, or ability to contextualize they will say the darndest things after all. Most parents of children under ten or so know to be careful what to tell them as they can blurt stuff out in a way that sounds offensive or even wrong to any random person. The governing body won't have to deal with any potential blowback from this video's message the witness kids will. Shit rolls downhill, sorry kids.
 +2 / -0
krejames
krejames 2 days ago
Actually the video doesn't even mention that the two mommies are having sex. No evidence that they're doing anything "unscriptural". They could be sisters for all we know. But nice that the judgmental mom of Sophia assumes they are doing the deed otherwise why would she even comment on it? After all the bible does not forbid having two mommies. 😛
 +4 / -1

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Maybe I'm Just Ignorant About the New "Anti-Gay" Video
by turtleturtle 3 days ago 146 Replies latest a day ago   jw friends
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Simon
Simon 2 days ago

Actually the video doesn't even mention that the two mommies are having sex. No evidence that they're doing anything "unscriptural". They could be sisters for all we know.
I think the video being called "One man, One woman: What is God’s standard for marriage, and why is it important?" makes it clear that the two mommies are married and therefore gay.
If they are not having sex then what's the problem? They have nexus - straight through with their baggage and onto the plane.

 +2 / -0
sparrowdown
sparrowdown 2 days ago

I thought the same thing krejames.
The video makes assumptions based on a child's drawing.
 
scotsman
scotsman 2 days ago

Let's face it, there's a generational problem. Just like some elderly people struggle to identify racist language or attitudes, some people find it hard to understand homophobia. They usually quote the dictionary.
 +2 / -0
Simon
Simon 2 days ago

If we can't rely on what words mean, it's pretty difficult to have a conversation about many things - they are the bricks to the building blocks of discussion. Correct meaning of words and their appropriate usage is essential for clear communication.
Some people of the next generation use the word "gay" to mean rubbish for instance. Is that better, or worse? Helpful or not?
I think when we're having a serious discussion it's assumed that people are using the correct and generally accepted meaning of words. That's why I'm so keen to make sure that people using "discrimination" know what they are actually claiming.
Saying that a video is discriminatory is kind of strange. Can watching a YouTube video cause you to be discriminated against? I don't think so (other than issues todo with accessibility / captioning if applicable)
 +3 / -0
scotsman
scotsman 2 days ago

My grandfather refused to accept that calling someone from Pakistan a "Paki" was unacceptable, he didn't think it was racist. By this one definition of racism, maybe it wasn't

Simple Definition of racism

◦: poor treatment of or violence against people because of their race

◦: the belief that some races of people are better than others

 +1 / -1
Simon
Simon 2 days ago

My grandfather refused to accept that calling someone from Pakistan a "Paki" was unacceptable, he didn't think it was racist. By this one definition of racism, maybe it wasn't
I'm pretty sure that was racist language then just as it is now but I don't know what the comparison is meant to prove. Calling any group by a name they haven't chosen is normally done for a reason, rarely noble.
The video was not calling gay people "homos" or "fags" or any other such slurs.
 +2 / -0
scotsman
scotsman 2 days ago

The point is that he didn't think it was racist language just like some people want homophobia to be strictly defined as violence against or fear of. It's more subtle than that just like racism can be.
The JW cartoon provides the context that perpetuates stigma against same sex couples. Yes it's consistent with their past and their interpretation of the Bible but that doesn't make it any less depressing for anyone struggling to come to terms with their sexuality.
But Simon while I'm sure you will continue to see this as another overreaction, I wish you all the best.
 +3 / -0
Simon
Simon 2 days ago

I don't think your comparison to racism works or that anyone has suggested that homophobia is strictly defined as violence. If that were the case then the Westboro Baptist Church wouldn't be considered homophobic which would be ridiculous. It does include hatred / intense dislike though which of course does apply to them.
Words and labels matter do. You can try to label anything as homophobic but if it really isn't, people will question the label and the motive for it. Some people identify so strongly with an issue that they can't see things objectively and want to apply it to the things they blame for their past pains. Credibility is hard to gain but quick and easy to lose when labels are over-applied.

Overreactions don't help a cause, they weaken it. They wear away sympathies because deep down most people want things to be fair whether that is praise or criticism. I'm simply unwilling to take part in the politics of offence on this issue.
While the video isn't pro-gay (duh) that doesn't make it homophobic or promoting discrimination. Sure, people can wave their hands and protest and invent stories of what they think happens after the end of the story but none of that alters the facts of the video itself which is mild, contains no derogatory language and doesn't promote people making judgments or prevention of other people's right to make their own choices.
If that is homophobic, then why is being gay such an issue?
 +2 / -1
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 2 days ago
If telling someone to sit at the back of a bus is racism, then telling someone they shouldn't have an intimate relationship is obviously homophobic. What's more of a deprivation, where you sit on a bus or whether you can have an intimate relationship?
 +3 / -1
krejames
krejames 2 days ago

For me the argument about whether the video is homophobic or discriminatory is just semantics and is by the by.
This is the bottom line: Is the video poisonous and prejudiced? Yes it is, based on the psychological effect it will have. Just like the JW narrative about homosexuality in its talks and literature. This time it was in a cute video for kids.
Prejudice and discrimination usually go hand in hand. That's why, for example, many JW parents would be willing to meet and associate with their exJW son's girlfriend and would have them in their lives but wouldn't want to meet their exJW son's boyfriend. This is why a drifter who goes out and has a "worldly" heterosexual relationship is much less likely to get disfellowshipped whereas s drifter who goes out and has a homosexual relationship must usually keep it quiet forevermore if they don't want to get disfellowshipped or cut off from their family.
i could go on. The psychological effect of any prejudice and the discrimination that is the result of it is high. Somewhere along the line this point has got lost in the arguments over homophobia and discrimination etc.
Do I think it should be banned? Not any more than any other prejudicial media. But I think it's right to draw the world's attention to this video because it IS aimed at children and paints its prejudice with such a rosy disneyfied hue as to be all the more abhorrent.
 +6 / -0

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Maybe I'm Just Ignorant About the New "Anti-Gay" Video
by turtleturtle 3 days ago 146 Replies latest a day ago   jw friends
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punkofnice
punkofnice 2 days ago

I don't know about the WBT$ propaganda.
It's just a pity that the WBT$ isn't paedo-phobic.
I see it as very hypocritical that they denounce being gay (for whatever stupid reason), but in reality do NOTHING to stop paedophilia within the congregations.
 +5 / -0
LoveUniHateExams
LoveUniHateExams 2 days ago

There is a difference (to them) as someone can abstain from sex, you can't abstain from your race - excellent point.
I think most of the bible is crap, but it is what it is and the video is a very mild interpretation of it - agree.
I disagree with the video but as Cofty keeps asking how would you have them interpret the bible? The bible's view of homosexuality can only be interpreted one way - negative.
 +1 / -0
cofty
cofty 2 days ago

Why is this particular strain of pragmatic incredulity reserved for threads where people argue that homophobic JW teaching is unacceptable? - SBF
Because both the OT and the NT explicitly condemn gay sex. There is no sensible way to get around that.
The practice of shunning and prohibition regarding blood transfusions are based on a blatant perversion of what the bible says.
It is about holding the WT to their own claims regarding the authority of scripture.
 +3 / -0
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 2 days ago

This is hard to follow. Are you saying it's more important to you that JWs are faithful to scripture (as you understand it) than that they stop making homophobic statements? Or what are you saying?
As I've pointed out repeatedly, other Bible believers can interpret the Bible as compatible with gay marriage. If JWs can deny hell in the NT they are certainly capable of reinterpreting homosexuality too.
 +3 / -2
cofty
cofty 2 days ago

other Bible believers can interpret the Bible as compatible with gay marriage
No they can't. They first have to reject the authority of the bible.
Why do you spell bible with upper-case "B"?
If JWs can deny hell in the NT they are certainly capable of reinterpreting homosexuality too.
There is absolutely no comparison. Hell has been to be read into the text. It originates in non-canonical books. The bible's prohibition on gay sex is explicit. Going round in circles now. Bye.
 +2 / -1
TheListener
TheListener 2 days ago

I do not agree with the video! But, this thread confused me. So I have a question.
Here is my question: IF IF IF IF I believed homosexuality, with or without sex, was against bible teaching would it be discriminatory to teach that to my kids? And if not should I have to use preapproved language vetted by the LGBTQ community?
Does everyone have to believe that homosexuality is ok and teach that to their kids?
Again, I don't agree with the video.
 
Je.suis.oisif
Je.suis.oisif 2 days ago
Good reasoning Cofty. Thanks for the unemotional clarification. Cuts right through all the verbiage.
 
krejames
krejames 2 days ago

The listener: "Here is my question: IF IF IF IF I believed homosexuality, with or without sex, was against bible teaching would it be discriminatory to teach that to my kids? And if not should I have to use preapproved language vetted by the LGBTQ community?"
its not about getting any pre approval. When they believed that black people were cursed as slaves, based on the bible, should they have used pre-approved language endorsed by the black community before teaching that rubbish to their children? The answer is they shouldn't have been prejudiced in the first place (whether or not endorsed by the bible) and the answer is the same now.
Several comments still appear to equate homosexuality with a sex act. I repeat if a heterosexual drifter enters a heterosexual unmarried relationship with a worldly person, they are generally allowed to get on with it. No one asks whether they are having sex. The partner is often accepted/associated with too in time. If a drifter/fader has a homosexual relationship even years after leaving, they are more likely to be shunned whether or not they are known to be having sex. Remember the bible only comments on a sex act, not the relationship. The sin in both cases would be exactly the same: fornication (whether homosexual or heterosexual). This is an example of the type of discrimination that occurs as a result of the prejudice encouraged by JW teachings like this video.


 +1 / -1
freemindfade
freemindfade 2 days ago

The bible teaches that slavery is great (same way it denounces homosexuality) now it a religious group made a cartoon with a mom teaching her child in a warm and fuzzy way how there is nothing wrong with slavery. Everyone would flip out. Because its in the bible doesn't give it a pass. Freedom of religion is fine. Be in the kkk and make racist cartoons or make cartoons about gay people but why should it be shielded from criticism for what it is?
The bible is full of ethnic genocide, slavery and mistreatment of women. If anyone wants to make a cartoon about any of that I'm gonna call that out, not because they put that in the bible but because they are keeping it alive in a really distasteful way.
Cofty you keep asking how else should they deliver their message? I don't think that is the point here. The point is the message is ugly and when tm3 bellows it from a worldwide stage or when they make a cartoon it makes it more real against the backdrop of modern society and this just might wake people up . How many jolted awake by tm3? That didn't go against the bible doctrine. We need to say that this propaganda piece doesn't work in modern society. I don't care if its from the bible or Quran or whatever. Its practicing and teaching discrimination.
 +6 / -0
DJS
DJS 2 days ago

The Dark Lords are back pedaling on the Sophia don't say gay video for a good reason. Stating that it was for internal use is a waste of time argument. If it was for internal use they would have simply shared it in the KHs, conventions and by extension in the individual homes of the dubs. The government, at least for now, wouldn't be driven to action in those venues because it is protected under our Constitution. At least for now.
The problem is they put it on the world wide web for everyone. Now it can be squarely in the government's crosshairs and it certainly is in the crosshairs of corporations and individuals. As it should be.
The Dark Lords will likely remove these types of videos and keep them confined to the local KHs and vertical supply chain to the dubs. Taking it out into the world makes it hate speech, regardless of their beliefs. It is hate speech. It is prejudicial. It is homophobic. Regardless of how sweetly they have presented the message.
 +7 / -0

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Maybe I'm Just Ignorant About the New "Anti-Gay" Video
by turtleturtle 3 days ago 146 Replies latest a day ago   jw friends
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punkofnice
punkofnice 2 days ago

I don't think the outside world is really going to be interested in the JW's stance. I say this because lots of fundie weirdos believe the same rubbish.
In truth, nobody really cares what the JWs say. People just get on with life and don't answer the door if JWs knock.
In the grand scheme of things I don't think this will gain much 'anti-JW' traction.
I might be wrong.
 +2 / -0
TheListener
TheListener 2 days ago

Please remember I don't agree that homosexuality is a sin and I have taught my kids to respect most people's lifestyles, but in doing so I taught them that other people do view homosexuality as a sin.
FMF, my wife is a dub. She finds homosexuality disgusting. I've had to work hard to counter her influence with our kids. I do not take this subject lightly; not that I was accused of that.

Holding outdated moronic non-biblical or biblical teachings as truth and raising your children to believe them may indeed be moronic but I don't feel it's discrimination.
Isn't defending speech we don't agree with as important as defending speech we do agree with? Isn't the defending of speech/ideas/actions (that are lawful) that we don't agree with the real test of freedom and liberty?
Anyway, those videos suck. My kids watched one or two at my inlaws house and they laughed pretty hard at the cultiness of it all. I caught hell for that,since everything bad is my fault.
 +3 / -0
freemindfade
freemindfade 2 days ago
I think generally they don't care because the witnesses historically were known to the outside as doorstep sales people. That was their biggest identifier among nonjw. With the last two years they a re becoming more visible for other things. Part or their becoming more "mainstream" in their actions.
 
TheListener
TheListener 2 days ago

I hope the more "mainstream" they become the more sick of them people will become.
Like that other thread where the lady wore that huge jayuu.org lapel pin for her medal ceremony with Obama. WTF is up with that!
 
Simon
Simon 2 days ago

if telling someone to sit at the back of a bus is racism, then telling someone they shouldn't have an intimate relationship is obviously homophobic. What's more of a deprivation, where you sit on a bus or whether you can have an intimate relationship?
Except that is not what they are doing. The equivalent would be them believing that black people who sit at the from of the bus won't go to heaven. It would be crazy - but not really denying anyone the right to sit where they chose.
That's why, for example, many JW parents would be willing to meet and associate with their exJW son's girlfriend and would have them in their lives but wouldn't want to meet their exJW son's boyfriend.
Technically, a JW parent shouldn't be willing to meet and associate with their exJW son's legal wife and family. So trying to make it a gay issue is smoke and mirrors - it's the "ex" part that causes the shunning.
Here is my question: IF IF IF IF I believed homosexuality, with or without sex, was against bible teaching would it be discriminatory to teach that to my kids? And if not should I have to use preapproved language vetted by the LGBTQ community?
Does everyone have to believe that homosexuality is ok and teach that to their kids?
Some would want it to be as you describe and they seem to be the ones struggling with the fundamental issue that the religious people who believe these things have the right to teach these things to their kids - as long as they are not publicly using hate speech or discriminating against people and people have had the chance to prove the video contains the latter and so far failed.
Remember the bible only comments on a sex act, not the relationship. The sin in both cases would be exactly the same: fornication (whether homosexual or heterosexual). This is an example of the type of discrimination that occurs as a result of the prejudice encouraged by JW teachings like this video.
I think that is wishful thinking - it doesn't say for instance that a same gender couple can marry as long as they don't have sex. You are also arguing that some local application of the rules is unfair as though that proves that the rules themselves are discriminatory. They are equally judgmental about different sex acts between married hetero-sexual couples although for obvious reasons, these are less likely to come to light.
Freedom of religion is fine. Be in the kkk and make racist cartoons or make cartoons about gay people but why should it be shielded from criticism for what it is?
They shouldn't escape criticism for it. But the criticism will be more powerful and convincing if it is kept accurate.
Making claims about the video containing hate speech and discrimination just weakens the message because when people watch the video and don't see those things, they may then dismiss this and other criticisms. An opportunity lost.
At the end of the day, they have their beliefs and it's clearly based on the bible. We might not agree with these beliefs, but they have the right to hold, teach and preach them. If anything, they should be used as an example and the direction that other, far more vocal, religious groups that do want to discriminate against people should be encouraged to move.
 +2 / -1
scotsman
scotsman 2 days ago

This non ex-JW thought it a cruel and damaging message:
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/as-a-gay-child-of-fundamentalist-christians-i-was-horrified-by-the-new-jehovahs-witnesses-video-a7014916.html

Presumably he's over-reacting too.
I'm sorry that some of us have upset the hierarchy of criticisms that we're allowed to lob at the JWs, I'll climb back into my box :wink:
 +3 / -2
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 2 days ago

Because both the OT and the NT explicitly condemn gay sex. There is no sensible way to get around that.
There are plenty of sensible Christians who do interpret the Bible that way. Why shouldn't JWs join them?
If the pressure becomes great enough they probably will.
 +2 / -1
Simon
Simon 2 days ago

This non ex-JW thought it a cruel and damaging message. Presumably he's over-reacting too.
Not an exJW no, but "a gay child of fundamentalist Christians" so probably an even more extreme upbringing and belief system so no wonder he / she finds it so damaging. I'm not surprised some things are triggers for some people if it reminds them of their own past circumstances and they project their own issues because of it. But some individuals outrage isn't proof that something is necessarily outrageous.
So what is your solution? Should there be a government approved list of beliefs? Should parents be told what they can and can't tell their children? Who will decide what is on this list? How will it be enforced?
Basically, "OMG, this video is so terrible we should ... [do what exactly?]".
Use a hashtag? If that is all it warrants then it makes my argument that it's not as bad as some are trying to portray it.
I'll climb back into my box
I guess you are trying to imply you are somehow being oppressed and not allowed to share your opinion?
There are plenty of sensible Christians who do interpret the Bible that way. Why shouldn't JWs join them?
So the plan is to reform the WTS and make them more acceptable to people so they can prosper and thrive?

 +1 / -1
Giordano
Giordano 2 days ago

The bible is a corrupted book.....totally unreliable and inconsistent. It really doesn't matter if the WTBT$ thinks it must subscribe to it's anti Gay policy because it's in the bible. The WTBT$ makes it's own rules and their level of inconsistency on this matter and others rivals the Mormons.
The slavery issue puts a stop to this argument. Every religion can and will change it's beliefs....... if not to do so would bring about it's destruction.
The WTBT$ is a corrupt construct and it's ability to shuck and duck it's humane responsibility makes it's dogma totally unreliable.
We left it because it sucks.

The Video we have been discussing is corrupt. It demonstrates an anti homosexual bias aimed at children. While it does not use inflammatory language it delivers and all too simple message that reaffirms a sick twisted point of view for those who can not adjust to the differences among humans...... be it skin color, appearance or sexual preferences among consenting adults.

 +5 / -0
konceptual99
konceptual99 2 days ago

There are plenty of sensible Christians who do interpret the Bible that way. Why shouldn't JWs join them?
If the pressure becomes great enough they probably will.
Very, very doubtful this would ever happen. Whilst there is a very slim chance they could sell something to Western Witnesses at some point in the future, don't forget that there are large contingents of Witnesses in countries where homosexuality is still fighting be be legal let alone tolerated or accepted. They would never risk the schism.
Jehovah's Witnesses have stuck to their guns for years on things like a global flood, 607 maths, only 6000 years of human presence on the earth, anti evolution, literal acceptance of things like Lot's wife becoming a pillar of salt and Jonah living in the belly of a fish for three days.
They have never even shown the slightest of signs that they would move to accepting heterosexual activity outside of marriage let alone accepting something like gay marriage. They can't even face up to trying to present some loving encouragement to young Witnesses who may be gay, it's still basically pray for it to go away.
Don't forget as well that the Witnesses don't care what the world says if the membership are happy with the status quo.  Right now 99% of Witnesses think the latest video and Awake are the most moderate and reasonable pronouncements on the subject ever. The GB only promote change when it suits commercial interests and this subject does not touch them commercially at all.
 +2 / -0

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Maybe I'm Just Ignorant About the New "Anti-Gay" Video
by turtleturtle 3 days ago 146 Replies latest a day ago   jw friends
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Simon
Simon 2 days ago

Not only doesn't it hurt them, it helps them - as society is moving towards more acceptance of gay marriage etc... then they are now placed to be "conservative christian lite" - all the bible based views and belief that god will judge people but not quite so outspoken and openly trying to discriminate against people.
They are catering for their market segment by providing the product that segment wants to buy without being identical to their competitors.
 +1 / -0
Gentledawn
Gentledawn 2 days ago


 +1 / -0
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 2 days ago

Very, very doubtful this would ever happen. Whilst there is a very slim chance they could sell something to Western Witnesses at some point in the future, don't forget that there are large contingents of Witnesses in countries where homosexuality is still fighting be be legal let alone tolerated or accepted. They would never risk the schism.
I totally see why it seems unlikely. JWs have along track record of being totally opposed to gay rights. But consider the huge shift of public opinion that has occurred. Personally I was not particularly in favour of gay marriage a decade ago. I thought it was a weird idea more than anything. Then I found out a local brother was gay and what he went through. I thought a lot about the issue and concluded there was no rational or ethical reason to deny gay people the exact same rights as everyone else. Many other people are apparently coming to the same conclusion at the same time. The change is absolutely huge. In the United States it changed from something like 40% support to 60% support in around a decade. And the trend continues. Even among Jehovah's Witnesses the trend is toward acceptance of gay people. If that trend continues it will reach a point where most people think JWs should change, including JWs themselves! At that point what will the GB do? It's like an irresistible force hitting an immovable object, but something has to give.
 +1 / -0
konceptual99
konceptual99 2 days ago

The trend should be for more tolerance simply because younger people are presented that view by society in general. I read my daughter's answer to a questionnaire on this very subject that was presented in her citizenship class at school - it was 100% what you would expect any tolerant person to put down.
What is clever about the video and Awake article however, is that they present an argument for limiting that tolerance that resonates perfectly with Witnesses and allows them to feel safe and happy in demonstrating a relative tolerance. At the same time, the experiences of gay people, especially young ones born into the religion, are completely hidden from view so no one gets the other side of the story unless they look for it.
The WTS does not need gay people. Witnesses have a position that prevents no one from being gay or getting a marriage - they just can't be Witnesses - but how many people does that actually affect?
Witnesses have proven time and time again at how capable they are at instantly shunning family members and former friends. What makes gay rights any more likely to provoke change from the ground up?
The GB only act when they have no choice and there are several larger issues that will 99% never provoke the mass walk out that it would take to force change. Gay rights is several slots down IMHO on that list.
 +3 / -0
Gentledawn
Gentledawn 2 days ago

The real trick is this: They're not sending the JW kids out to directly convert (in this case) the homosexual parents.
No, they're having a child of a JW go to the gay couple's child and hold out the fake-ass hope of petting pandas and lions in a paradise. After the 'unbelieving' child gets baited into believing the more benign nonsense, then the fear-mongering will be implanted next.  
What will that child do? Likely go home and ask/tell their 2 mommies that they're going to burn in hell get killed during armageddon. That poor child is gonna have anxiety they wouldn't otherwise have had, foisted upon them by the JW classmate.  

 +1 / -1
scotsman
scotsman 2 days ago

I've never once said the video should be banned. I've just said its homophobic and it should be exposed as such.
Some people get quite hysterical and hand wavey over the use of the word homophobia.
Oxford Dictionaries definition
Dislike of or prejudice against homosexual people.
 +1 / -1
Simon
Simon 2 days ago

Sigh, you still really don't get it?
The video never even says "we don't like gay people" so it doesn't even meet your very relaxed definition of the term. I know you are desperate for the WTS to have produced a video that is actually homophobic but they haven't. I think they are smarter than to do something so dumb.
The only people getting remotely hysterical are the ones who have their claim that it's promoting discrimination questioned in any way.
It seems strange and contradictory to claim that it is both homophobic but not needing to be banned.
It's worthy of some social condemnation and warrants some hashtags ... but nothing more.
 +1 / -0
steve2
steve2 2 days ago

Sign from me too. Gentledawn continues the practise of extending the scenario way beyond what the video says. Sohpie will say this, Sophie will say that and on and on. "Then the fear-mongering will start".
It is not homophobic because no dislike of homosexuals as people is expressed. Indeed Sophie's mother stated, "People can change". Sure, that is freighted with a heap of ignorance about sexual orientation - but that is another topic. If JWs stated, "Homosexuals are abominable and are beyond help and we need to keep away from them" (as stated by some of the more extreme religious groups such as Westboro Baptist Church, THAT would homophobic. Excuse me for noting that you have to go beyond what the video states to even get a taint of homophobia.
You will have a devil of a job successfully charging the makers of this video with homophobia - although as I stated earlier, I can see how it could be construed as such.
That said, the video still sends out an unhealthy and distorted message about human sexuality as based on the JWs literal reading of Biblical texts. So I am no apologists for JWs' uninformed views on the topic.
Oh, and before posters come back with the view that the Bible does not condemn modern conceptions of homosexuality, please note:
Being a gay male myself, I am very familiar with liberal Christians' apologetics in this regard. As for Jonathan and David, for all the kilometres of print on this allegedly over-heated mateship, there is not a shred of evidence that these two hunky men ever bedded each other.
 +3 / -0
scotsman
scotsman a day ago

Is homophobia a crime?
If the "video still sends out an unhealthy and distorted message about human sexuality" I'd say it is designed to incite prejudice. It's not a crime.
 
Simon
Simon a day ago

I can see why some groups want to do the "reformation" thing with the bible and re-cast Jonathan and David as a gay couple (although it doesn't really fit with the David character IMO) and I'm all for that - if people can strike parts of the bible out and convince people it's justified then it makes it much more palatable. Really though, the whole book should just be thrown away, maybe one day ...
Personally, I just don't understand why anyone who is gay would ever want to belong to any religion who's holy book is so clearly anti-gay. I always wonder if there's ever been black people who wanted to join the KKK (I know that sounds silly, but there were jewish nazis).
I know the situation is different when you are brought up in the religion but at some point everyone has choices to make, I wonder if it's just familiarity and conditioning that makes people want to chose a group that doesn't want to chose them back.
Not forgetting that it's a religion that doesn't chose lots of people for various other reasons too.
 

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Maybe I'm Just Ignorant About the New "Anti-Gay" Video
by turtleturtle 3 days ago 146 Replies latest a day ago   jw friends
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redvip2000
redvip2000 a day ago

Looks like we are getting lost in who is the victim in relation to the video.
The victims here are not gays. The point of the push back against the video is not from the angle of being homophobic. The real victims here are the kids that are indoctrinated right from the outset by being taught that being gay is wrong, immoral, unacceptable, deserving of punishment, deserving of death one could say.
 +7 / -0
Simon
Simon a day ago

The real victims here are the kids that are indoctrinated right from the outset by being taught that being gay is wrong, immoral, unacceptable, deserving of punishment, deserving of death one could say.
That's a good way of looking at it and the most accurate summation of the issue.
 +3 / -0
steve2
steve2 a day ago
Scotsman, the distorted view of sexuality is not exclusive to homosexuality. Look at the proscriptions around oral and anal sex within marriage and the proscription against pre-marital sex. You have toi draw a long bow to see homophobia where more accurately sexualphobia exists.
 +3 / -1
Simon
Simon a day ago

You have to draw a long bow to see homophobia where more accurately sexualphobia exists.
It's not just sex, the list of the uninvited is quite long. I'm pretty sure most people will be on it for one reason or another (I'm pretty sure I've reviled a few things):
Or do you not know that unrighteous people will not inherit God’s Kingdom? Do not be misled. Those who are sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, men who submit to homosexual acts, men who practice homosexuality, thieves, greedy people, drunkards, revilers, and extortioners will not inherit God’s Kingdom.
Yes, homosexuality gets a double mention ... but it's certainly not limited to that (although to come full circle, it's what the video was about so obviously their target).
 
sparrowdown
sparrowdown a day ago

The bible and WT are anti-gay clearly, but not homophobic? WTH?
I'm soooo confuuuused 😟
 +1 / -0
cofty
cofty a day ago

Homosexuality is an excellent illustration of the difference between absolute morality based on the dictates of a deity and objective morality based on humanist principles.
JWs are committed to the former. If god says something is bad then that settles it. No reasons are necessary since it is assumed god knows best. It is an infantilising worldview.
Secular ethics demand reasons. Something can only be judged as bad if it can be shown to have harmful consequences.
In many instances these two ways of thinking about morality coincide. Israel didn't really need a stone tablet to know that murder, theft and adultery were not conducive to a prosperous society.
Homosexuality is a conspicuous example of where these two cultures collide. On the one hand god says unequivocally that homosexuality is sinful, but on the other there is no rational reason for that prohibition.
Increased acceptance of gay relationships in society will have an opposite effect on the Watchtower. They pride themselves on being "no part of the world".
A lot of the comments in this and other threads have been trying to prove that JW's opposition to gay relationships is harmful. Of course it is, but to a biblical literalist it makes perfect sense. They are not looking for ways to fit in with the changing values of "the world". They actually believe they are on the moral high ground on this point and they will continue to attract followers who agree.
 +5 / -0
slimboyfat
slimboyfat a day ago

Increased acceptance of gay relationships in society will have an opposite effect on the Watchtower. They pride themselves on being "no part of the world".
What about increasing acceptance among JWs themselves? Up from 12% to 16% between 2007 and 2014. What happens if/when more JWs approve than oppose?

 
cofty
cofty a day ago
The Watchtower Society is a dictatorship masquerading as a theocracy not a democracy.
 +1 / -0
scotsman
scotsman a day ago

Heavy sigh.
children raised as JWs are victims because they are being taught to be prejudiced. Not just of homosexuality but a whole host of other things. The JWs have a distorted view of a vast range of things beyond sexuality.
But this cartoon is about teaching prejudice against homosexuals, not adulterers, theives or gluttons. I'm not shocked by it, I've never said I was outraged, nor have I said it should be banned (I've not even waved my hands our flounced).
i stand by the statement that this is cartoon designed to instill prejudice against homosexuals in JW children and I think that's homophobic. I think the Bible's homophobic too.
I sincerely hope you will survive me thinking differently from you.
 +1 / -1
sparrowdown
sparrowdown a day ago
Can someone put together a focus group of varied demographic children to watch the video and ask them what they think the video is saying? ....Anyone..please.
 

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Maybe I'm Just Ignorant About the New "Anti-Gay" Video
by turtleturtle 3 days ago 146 Replies latest a day ago   jw friends
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slimboyfat
slimboyfat a day ago

It's not a democracy no, but you miss the point.
Societal and even governmental pressure may come to bear on JWs and other religious groups to stop victimising gay people. You have said JWs won't change despite such pressure because it would destroy the organisation. My point is: that is only true if a majority of JWs still oppose accepting gay people. If that is no longer true, and a majority support gay people, there would no longer any reason to supposer the change will destroy the organisation. In fact at some point the pressure to change may exceed the pressure not to change. What they choose to do at that point will be intersting, if we get there.
 +0 / -2
cofty
cofty a day ago

Societal and even governmental pressure may come to bear on JWs and other religious groups to stop victimising gay people.
So they will relish the "persecution".
I don't believe there is much move towards acceptance of gay rights based on a survey. I think that just shows how many nominal JWs only identify as such to maintain family relationships.
 +1 / -0
cofty
cofty a day ago

I think the Bible's homophobic too - Scotsman
And the pope is a catholic.
 
fulltimestudent
fulltimestudent a day ago

Dont want to use the word 'homophobic' in connection with the slick, but silly JW video?
Then try a word, Joe Kort (a behavioural therapist) suggests. What is that word? Its "microaggression". It was coined (apparently) by psychiatrist and Harvard University professor, Chester M. Pierce in 1970 to describe insults and dismissals he regularly witnessed non-black Americans inflict on African Americans.
The WT blurb writers (as I remember) were rather skilled in the use of 'microaggressive' words. From that perspective, just to say, "Jehovah does'nt like......." can be microaggressive.
Kort gives some examples of what he sees as "microaggression against 'same sex attracted people.*'"
*"Have you ever had real sex?"
*"...I'm not being homophobic, you're being too sensitive..."
*"Why don't you ever wear dresses?"
*"So....who's the man in the relationship?"
*"That's totally cool with me as long as I can watch"
* "You are so Jack on "Will and Grace" or Cam on "Modern Family"
 ----------------------------
BTW, somewhat lost in all this, though discussed a little, is the difference between 'attraction' and 'acts.' OR, as Kort sees it, as quoted in the NYT (March 20, 2014), the difference between 'behaviour' and 'identity'. Which was possibly a reference to his 2014 book, " Is My Husband Gay, Straight, or Bi?: A Guide for Women Concerned about their Men."
On which topic, my same sex attracted friends often comment that, at the gay beats around Sydney, the number of cars that have baby seats fitted, is amazing.
http://www.joekort.com/
--------------------------------------------------------
*I'd rather use same sex attracted, than to use the word 'gay' or the word 'homosexual.'
http://www.joekort.com/

 
cofty
cofty a day ago

Please not microaggressions!
The weapon of whiny third wave campus feminists.
 +5 / -0
Simon
Simon a day ago

You have said JWs won't change despite such pressure because it would destroy the organisation. My point is: that is only true if a majority of JWs still oppose accepting gay people. If that is no longer true, and a majority support gay people, there would no longer any reason to supposer the change will destroy the organisation.
There is also no reason to suppose that the change will happen. I doubt very much that the majority of JWs actively support and call for shunning - in fact, I would bet that 90%+ (easily) are for allowing things to be more relaxed. As long as 12 guys at bethel think it's in their favour to keep it then it stays.
It's not a democracy and even an overwhelming majority counts for nothing. They are sheep in more than one figurative sense.
The weapon of whiny third wave campus feminists.
I agree, they seem to be one of the weapons of choice in the politics of offence.
If people ask a question, it's the wrong question and insulting. If people don't ask questions, they are being ignored and not included. If people ask the identical question they would ask anyone else then their specific unique needs are not being addressed.
Reality is, people are awkward, especially with the unknown and say dumb shit all the time. It's not an attack unless people are determined to turn it into one.
 +1 / -0
steve2
steve2 a day ago

Microaggression? I first heard that egregious word decades ago and thought it had subsequently long dropped of the commonsense radar.
Microaggression is a nifty retort adjective for people primed for being offended. It's a word that does itself out of a job by over-emphasizing "micro". Coined back in 1970, I'm not surprised it never caught on.
As others long before me noted, the examples provided by Pierce seem adequately described by the adjective, "Insensitive" than any form of aggression, no matter how small or "micro".
Now, back to the real world.
 +1 / -0

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Demon possesion, bunch of crap or?
by raven 3 days ago 45 Replies latest 15 hours ago   jw experiences
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raven
raven 3 days ago

Hello!

I've been using the forum to vent and post a lot more frequently lately as a venting purpose & way to obtain peace of mind with the craziness I've been going through recently as I fade away form the org.
Anyways today I'm sitting here at work and thinking to myself about demons... Ok I know this sounds crazy but has anyone else out there been traumatized by the thought of demons? I had a dream the other night, just flat out spooky and I woke and couldn't help but feeling it may have been evil ole' Satan and his demons at it again.. I don't want to believe that, (trying not to, & just brushing it under the rug so to speak) But have any of you out there been talked up about demons? And how they'll possess inanimate objects and mess with us? I remember as a child I told my mom I was having bad dreams while we were visiting my grandparents one summer, & my mom practically tore down the bedroom to find out what was causing my scary dreams. She eventually found these little Egyptian statue trinkets and blamed my creepy dreams on demons possessing the trinket... Is that a bunch of bologna? I've also heard about JW's back in the day believing Smurfs were demons? LOL!
Anyways, I'm just rambling at this point, but what have you all experienced or been indoctrinated to know about demons, experiences anyone? So I know I'm not crazy. 
 +4 / -0
HappyDad
HappyDad 3 days ago

I sometimes wonder the same thing. About 8 years ago I was having some very weird and scary dreams. They seemed so real that I actually thought it was happening. One in particular happened at least three times over a period of weeks. It was as if I actually woke up, got out of my bed that was rocking slightly and items from the dresser would move. While this was happening I was thinking "I know I'm awake, this isn't a dream. I actually touched things in the dream thinking that I was awake. Call me crazy but I don't know what causes such vivid dreams.
Other dreams were of my late wife. I would be talking to her and knew that she was dead but here looking at me. One particular dream about 15 or more years ago (she's gone for 20 years now) she was in it and it turns out my daughter had the same dream on the same night I had it. Only she talked to my daughter and told her everything would be ok. My daughter and I described what she was wearing and it was exactly the same for both of us.
Demons? I don't know but when I was a good JW that is what I would have said.
HappyDad
 +2 / -0
Half banana
Half banana 3 days ago

The threat of a devil and demons is a fantastic way to get people to conform to a religious doctrine. The JW org play this card all the time. If you don't do what we say you are pleasing Satan... This is so childish, so black and white! Real life is not like this.
JWs and the early christ sects for that matter, made just the same warnings. It's a psychological trick, as they say: talk of the devil and he bound to appear.
Once a person researches cult religion and its mind control, it becomes apparent that these infantile methods work on the people who do concern themselves with the devil, those who have been held back in their education and natural development. Mature humans don't worry about invisible spirits unprovable fears and threats from another dimension, the real world has enough to worry about!...but our unfounded fears can be conquered.
Life is better than you think once you have shaken off the Watchtower mindset.
 +2 / -1
AmIright
AmIright 3 days ago

OK, I BELIEVE THEYRE REAL. purely based on my own experiences with multiple people where I would see shadows(silhouette of a man with a old style bowler hat) not only did I see them but I have seen them while with other people and they have seen them too. recently ive been seeing bright lights which just vanish, also If I'm out walking the fields and I'm on my way home and the sun has left I will get bright lights show me mysurroundings as if the sun was shining, People have also seen a "man" near me but when I answered the fon and they told me where to look there was nothing....apparently as a child my mother referred to my "best friend" being a "ghost" and it would hide my stuff on me, but then she said I came back from the stream one day and had told her I had killed and buried my friend(ghost)..... LOL DONT WORRY ABOUT IT. from my experience they've helped save my life a few times.  they also leave on command too!  really don't worry JW is run by satan anyway.
 +1 / -3
Lieu
Lieu 3 days ago

I always had this weird dream about a couple of (drunken) demons on a parking lot in front of a police station tossing nearby neighborhood cars around. The police surround them but can't do anything about them. I show up take a police baton from some officer and draw a circle around the demons ... They can't go beyond the circle so they get mad and fling more cars. I'm not afraid of them.
The lead demon starts shouting at me. Why are you bothering us? I say it's not their time yet. Anyhow, a glowing yellow sword comes down from heaven and I step into the circle to fight the leader. Once I get the better of it, my sword turns red and demon leaders face has a look of horror on it. I slash, it dies.
The other couple of demons start screeching in horror. My sword returns to yellow and at that point some Angelic police swoop down with chains and smash bore the demons into the earth core prison; leaving a huge hole in the ground.
The sword disappears and that's pretty much it.
 +2 / -0
cofty
cofty 3 days ago

There are no spirits - evil or otherwise.
Nobody can even define "spirit" in a way that makes any sense.
We are descended from thousands of generations of ancestors who assumed agency in random events. Those who didn't usually failed to leave descendants.
 +7 / -7
Lieu
Lieu 3 days ago

Around the time my mom started with the JWs she said I had three invisible friends named sheol, sheal, and shole. (A 2 yr old mind you).
Odd. I guess it's better to have death as a friend than an enemy.
 +2 / -0
Island Man
Island Man 3 days ago

I think demon possession is superstitious rubbish thought up by ancient people who were unable to explain mental illnesses. Remember, there was a time when people did not know that the brain is responsible for our thoughts and actions. They thought that there was a separate inanimate being inhabiting the body - a "ghost in the machine", if you will.
So when presented with mental people who were having auditory hallucinations and split personality disorders, and behaving violently or irrationally, they would naturally think that there must be another "ghost in the machine" - that the person's body is possessed.
However, by the time science finally figured out the brain's role in thought, action and mental illness, the idea of demons and demon-possession had already taken firm hold in religions and had become inextricably entwined with religious beliefs and the sacred writings they're based on. So people still held on to the superstitious idea of demons and demon possession even though science had already provided an answer for behavior of those said to be possessed.
So I believe that ignorance of the brain's functioning and malfunctioning led to the development of the idea of possession by spirits. And once this idea became a part of sacred religious beliefs and texts, loyalty to these said sacred religious beliefs preserved and perpetuated this false idea of demon possession long after science has presented a reasonable and logical explanation.

 +4 / -1
Lieu
Lieu 3 days ago

Meh Crofty,
There might be an alternate dimension that bleeds into this one at times. Who knows for certain?


Islandman,
What if there are far more advanced lifeforms in the universe that can possess a human? And for them possessing a human is like playing with a remote controlled car but more fun.
 +7 / -0
Island Man
Island Man 3 days ago


Meh Crofty,
There might be an alternate dimension that bleeds into this one at times. Who knows for certain?

Meh Lieu,
There might be an invisible pink elephant floating around in your room at times. Who knows for certain? LOL


 +7 / -4

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Demon possesion, bunch of crap or?
by raven 3 days ago 45 Replies latest 15 hours ago   jw experiences
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Wasanelder Once
Wasanelder Once 3 days ago

When you learn about your brain chemistry you will find your answer. Fear and anxiety manifests in many ways, one way is in dreams, another is superstition. The JW's feed that fire. Actively control your anxiety by changing input into your unconscious. Don't worry, Be happy.



 +4 / -0
Anders Andersen
Anders Andersen 3 days ago

Yeah I used to believe that nonsense too. But really, there ain't such beings.
Any effort to prove demons exist under (at least somewhat) controlled circumstances were unsuccessful. So we're left with hearsay, sensational fables, scared people who don't think straight, institutional fearmongering, etc.
Apart from that: if Biblical demons do exist, and our protection is gone when we leave Jehovah or JW.org: please show me from the Bible examples of demon-induced dreams, demon-possessed objects, demons creating shadows, etc. No such thing in there. You're either possessed or not. You're either talking to one or not. That's it.
Don't be scared. There is no such a thing.
@Happydad, look up lucid dreaming. Much fun :smile:
 +0 / -1
Half banana
Half banana 3 days ago
Lieu, didn't anyone tell you; Hollywood is not real life?
 +2 / -0
raven
raven 3 days ago

I was always terrified of praying out loud as well because I didn't want Satan or the demons to know what I was confiding in God about.. I do remember before though saying aloud, "Satan are you real?" ..... Nothing happened. hmmph.

Island Man: l do agree with you on the fact that we have been told forever about the spirit realm, especially those who have experienced hallucinations, dark energy, etc. Maybe that is why they thought to preform exorcisms?

 
jookbeard
jookbeard 3 days ago
went through a phase during my teens years of being petrified of spirits,demonic possession etc, it didn't help with an almost addiction to horror films particularly like like The Exorcist,The Omen, The Evil Dead etc, now many years later I'm completely free of such ridiculous fear and worry, there is nothing out there, during my fade though my wife and sister did comment that they felt I was possessed even by then I was not in any doubt that it was all a lot of fear fearmongering superstitious nonsense.
 
pbrow
pbrow 3 days ago

Apostate!!!!! The elephant is very clearly reddish with an orange hue... not this blasphemous pink color that you talk about!
As for me and my household we trust in the noodly appendage
pbrow
 +1 / -0
cofty
cofty 3 days ago

There might be an alternate dimension that bleeds into this one at times. Who knows for certain? - Lieu
There might be a teapot orbiting the sun. Who knows for certain?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
 +3 / -0
Lieu
Lieu 3 days ago

Lol @ Half banana
Well at least I wasn't afraid of them. I mean really, if God was supposed to be on my side why should I be afraid of the less powerful?
Those first century biblical people didn't seem to be all that afraid of them. They used possessed people to make money a few times that I recall reading.
The whole fear mongering over demons is kinda silly. From a Biblical standpoint:
1.Who's more powerful demons, Jesus, or God? Who are adherents supposed to fear?
2. Where in the Bible does it say they jump into inanimate objects? Nowhere. If they did that, I would think there'd be instances in the Bible where some idols actually spoke to people. Don't you? (Talk about having some bad boy fun.) So no, that vase sister Jones bought at a yard sale is not demon possessed.
Core theme with the WTBTS is to be feared and instill with fear of just about everything. Sad really.
 +2 / -0
Anders Andersen
Anders Andersen 3 days ago

Inanimate objects are safe.
Just don't keep snakes or donkeys as pets. Or pigs. Or bearded people. Or blind people. Cripple. Epileptic. Mute. Deaf. They're all possessed. Or at least they could be. Better safe than sorry...
 +3 / -0
Lieu
Lieu 2 days ago
.... and little girls with dollies. <----- Talk about spooky
 +3 / -0

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Demon possesion, bunch of crap or?
by raven 3 days ago 45 Replies latest 15 hours ago   jw experiences
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Aprostate Exam
Aprostate Exam 2 days ago
My field is in psychology, and although many things can be explained through certain psychological thought processes, I have experienced some strange happenings. As a JW I was taught to think of anything strange as a demonic happening. I like to hear stories of people that have been resuscitated, these stories give me hope. I know that I was no where and do not have knowledge of my existence before being born, so this strengthened the JW way of thinking, that we do not know our post existence either, until we are resurrected. But I want to believe that we go somewhere, I want to believe this so much. I have a few experiences that have drawn me to think that we exist as spirits after we pass away. My brother's presence was felt at my moms house for about a week after his death. He messed with the electronics, my father and I still talk about this. I have asked my JW parents to come visit me after they pass away, to give me some reaffirmation of this.
 +1 / -1
AmIright
AmIright 2 days ago

There might be an alternate dimension that bleeds into this one at times. Who knows for certain? - Lieu

There might be a teapot orbiting the sun. Who knows for certain?

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary
scientist's are finding proof of parallel universe's...

 
AmIright
AmIright 2 days ago


 AdChoices

Scientists have finally proven that there IS life after death but we might not be going to heaven

http://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/world/scientists-have-finally-proven-that-there-is-life-after-death-but-we-might-not-be-going-to-heaven/ar-BBt9LAx?ocid=spartanntp


seen this on the google news feed

 
Anders Andersen
Anders Andersen 2 days ago

If spirits are able to mess with electronics, lighting, hide stuff or uncover long lost items, make sounds, influence dreams, etc...
Why can't they just grab a pencil a write on a piece of paper 'hey its me I miss you guys'.
Or knock Morse code. Send an email.
To me it seems that all the signs attributed to souls and spirits are just as clear as answers to prayer: you might get some, or not. You never know for sure. And it's all complete up to yourself to come up with an interpretation. It's always ambiguous at best. Without your own wishful thinking the events would never have picked up as a message from God/spirits.
But maybe I'm too skeptical...
 +2 / -0
dogon
dogon 2 days ago
Its always you hear about someone who knew someone that had a table float or some such bull shit. As a kid my parents would sit around the table and tell stories, always about someone they knew that knew someone that had some experience. I have a couple of cousins that swear they had demon problems, but the one woman tried in later years to kill her kids in an oven, she was mentally off. Her father swore to me he was helping to rid a home of demon problems and found a box of dishes that had crosses on them. I found a Catholic cross at a marina broken and fixed it and still have it and never had a problem. LMAO. He said it was not enough he took the dishes to a land fill, he was one of those over the top gung ho asshat elders. He had to break every dish. He told me that some dust from the dishes got into his gloves and on the ride home the gloves tried to strangle him. Mental illness runs in that family. Its a load of BS, but can I prove that? No, but I have never ever seen anything that could not be explained by some other more reasonable explanation.

 +2 / -0
cofty
cofty 2 days ago
Why do OUIJA boards stop working when you make everybody wear a blindfold?
 +2 / -0
atomant
atomant 2 days ago
Maybe demons evolved from the soup like humans.?heinz anyone?

 
ttdtt
ttdtt 2 days ago
just a bunch of crap covers it 100%
 +1 / -0
Dunedain
Dunedain 2 days ago

You notice how most of the "demon stories", or "demonic encounters", mentioned are talking about DREAMS. That's because that is exactly what it is, a DREAM.
Yes, it feels real. Yes it WAS scary. Yes, you dreamt it more than once. Yes, it happened on a night you watched a rated R movie, or when you were wondering if demons were real. BUT yes, they are still JUST A DREAM.
In fact, when someone believes that demons ARE real, it subconsciously pre-disposes them to "see", or "feel" demons, especially in a dream.
I can GUARANTEE that if you do NOT believe in demons, you will NEVER have a demonic experience. I can also GUARANTEE, that if you believe in demons, you most likely WILL have a demonic experience.
T

 +3 / -0
smiddy
smiddy 2 days ago

How many Bible accounts , in either the Old testament or new testament are their about people with a mental disease , .I would suggest very few.What are your thoughts.?
How many Bible account ` s  are their about people who are possessed by a Devil or demons in the Bible , I would suggest their re  a great many  number.
Demon possession is strong in the Bible.
Mental Illness is almost non existant in the bible.
My theory /belief here is the ancient Bible writers never had a clue about mental illness in those days , so they just assumed it was the work of the Devil , influenced by the beliefs/superstitions that was paramount of those times.
So those poor souls accused of  demonic behaviour were nothing more than being  victims of a condition they had no control over . , mental  Illness .


smiddy
 +6 / -0

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Demon possesion, bunch of crap or?
by raven 3 days ago 45 Replies latest 15 hours ago   jw experiences
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punkofnice
punkofnice 2 days ago

As a JW child, I was terrified of Demons. I would lay in my bed at night with the covers over my head, fearing a Demon was standing in my room.
Just exactly what it would do, I have no idea.
I think this shows the level of abuse that religion throws at vulnerable children.
I no longer believe in airy fairy Demons and stuff.
Humans are the real problem.
 +4 / -0
zeb
zeb 2 days ago

I have had demonic experiences. Please my friends because you have been so bruised by wt don't just disregard.
disbelieve by all means but please don't get involved with the occult just to spite your former wt belief.
 +1 / -1
Witness My Fury
Witness My Fury 2 days ago

A galactic pile of crap.
Any "experiences" are down to the mind playing tricks and fooling itself.
 +1 / -1
Anders Andersen
Anders Andersen 2 days ago

Zeb,
Care to elaborate?
(I understand you might not want to risk being ridiculed)
Still, using magnetic fields, low frequency vibrations, drugs, mass 'hysteria' etc it's quite easy to induce demonic experiences l...
 
jaydee
jaydee 2 days ago

Probably just a bunch of 'Thetans'
How's your bank balance ?............
Image result for Thetans
 
WTWizard
WTWizard 2 days ago
The worst thing Satan and His Demons could do to me is nothing--turning their backs on me and letting joke-hova and its angels do whatever they want. I do not want to pious-sneer. I do not want to give away all my silver (and gold, if they can find any) for the Worldwide Damnation Fund. I do not want to go on that two-week mission in Israel when they announce it in the future. I do not want to be stuck in a stagnant lifestyle where I could have lived a comfortable one, thanks to stacking silver.

 
MarkofCane
MarkofCane 2 days ago

I used to believe in the spirit world. Listen when your raised in a cult that drills into your head day and night that God and Satan are in battle mode and Michael the Archangel battled with the serpent and his angles.Then cast them to the vicinity of earth...so now they reside among us. Don't forget that Satan roams the earth:
Be alert, be on watch! Your enemy, the Devil, roams around like a roaring lion, looking for someone to devour. 1 Peter 5:8Then you have the fanatics with the inanimate possession stories, smurfs and P&G and spiritism in books, music and movies. After awhile even the most logical minded start to believe. I know now that they are figments of the imagination induced by the fever of indoctrination. Read about the Salem witch trials....do you really believe the 20 or so innocent people who where burn at the stake where evil or witches? Evil were the ones burning them with fear conjured by religious fanatics.

 +3 / -0
Anders Andersen
Anders Andersen 2 days ago

Did any of you believe in or even experience personal guardian angels while still a JW?
Many non-jw people do. If you didn't or don't believe their claims of personal guardian angels and dismiss them as wishful thinking, why would you now believe in demons (possibly) messing with you instead of dismissing your own ideas as fearful thinking?
 
bohm
bohm 2 days ago
Nope, we know the mind plays tricks on us from time to time and for a person who believes in supernatural powers that will naturally come in the form of angels and demons.
 
someDUDEinAsmallCubicalSomewhereOverTheRAINBOX
someDUDEinAsmallCubicalSomewhereOverTheRAINBOX 2 days ago

I for one wish demons and Satan were real. They always seem to have such a good time, with all the sex and drugs and murder and such....unlike that old fogy and phony Jehober. He's so booorring. I would LOVE to worship Satan and his minions.
If, of course, they were real. Good luck with that though.
 

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Demon possesion, bunch of crap or?
by raven 3 days ago 45 Replies latest 15 hours ago   jw experiences
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Crazyguy
Crazyguy 2 days ago
My wife believes in demon possession. I once got a book from a friend that the wife then thought was possessed because the friend said they had ghosts in thier house. Anyway had to get the book out of the house. Later I brought it back in and she didn't know and still no demons. Also I have the biggest demon possessed book ever in the house CoC and she doesnt know and still no demons.
 +2 / -0
Carol1111
Carol1111 2 days ago

I think fear of 'demons' and 'things that go bump in the night' has to do with the active imagination of a child, which most of us eventually grow out of.
As a little child I was terrified of flushing the toilet at night as it makes such a noise and I thought that some unknown 'thing' would hear and get me. I felt I was safe in bed, so if I did flush I would run and jump into bed as quickly as I could. I didn't know what the 'thing' was and grew out of it eventually.
I also was afraid that daleks would get me and combatted this fear by realising that they move around on wheels and so could not get up stairs. Once again, I was safe in bed!
 +2 / -0
raven
raven 2 days ago
You're all pretty much right about active imagination, it's crazy how our minds can make us believe things that aren't really "out to get us" so to speak. Still makes me wonder though, across the nation they have haunted hotels, or ghost tours, do you think that people get scared at these events because of over active imagination especially when the environment is made out to be "creepy"?

 
krejames
krejames 2 days ago

I used to be terrified of demons and if I felt I had sinned in some way that would mean jehovah taking his blessing away I would sleep with the lights on.
I used to to wake myself up in my sleep and be conscious but still paralysed and hear a buzzing sound. I thought it was demon and would try and say "Jehovah" but only an earthly demonic voice would emanate from me. I thought I was possessed. As I was fading I did some research on this and found I was experiencing lucid dreams which is apparently quite common. It's a phenomenon that occurs usually as you're waking up.
in fact lucid dreams also explains away the stories my mum and my sister told me of their own "demonic experiences". It obviously runs in the family.
Nowadays I'm a cynic but I do acknowledge there are some unexplained phenomena for which maybe science hasn't discovered the cause. I think maybe humans have more powers than we realise - such as the seemingly telepathic connection between twins. But I don't believe this is from a spirit realm
 
TheWonderofYou
TheWonderofYou a day ago

Today we have TV series, ghost & demons horror movies, war & crime series, hounters creepers, thrillers, ghostbusters and hundreds of fantasy books with vampirs and all kind of mightful mad characters.
Human anxiety about the evil and the absolute evil is a reality and is deep in us. We like to act out the dramatic reality of evil in our imagination. That is simply how we deal with the possibilty that the infinite evil exists and what we would do if we came in that situation. Its thrilling and fascinating to watch and even to play.
Each culture and religion had its demons and customs and perhaps they were naive for our modern understanding but it always turned around the really existing evil or the mad nature and that human could change their character and went the way to their and others ruin
 
Vidiot
Vidiot 15 hours ago

smiddy - "...the ancient Bible writers never had a clue about mental illness in those days, so they just assumed it was the work of the Devil... those poor souls accused of demonic behaviour were nothing more than victims of a condition they had no control over..."
That shit wasn't just limited to Biblical times.
It still happens in some parts of the world.
 

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Can Someone Give Me the Link to That "After Armageddon" story
by jacobm 3 days ago 2 Replies latest 3 days ago   jw friends
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jacobm
jacobm 3 days ago
It was a fictional (obviously) story about what life would be like after armageddon if the JWs were right.
 
somebody
somebody 3 days ago
http://avoidjw.org/2015/10/after-armageddon/
 
Simon
Simon 3 days ago

Previous discussion, some great comments:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/6365597352853504/hilarious-whatsapp-message-received-first-day-after-big-d

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Be careful what you wish for (in case you want to wake up your spouse)
by nevaagain 3 days ago 36 Replies latest a day ago   jw friends
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nevaagain
nevaagain 3 days ago

I want to spare you a long post about my background. Because this topic is about something else.
A small information is that I knew TTATT before I got married. But then I somehow pushed it back for quite some time because I didn't want to change my life and it was convenient to instantly meet new people when you move into a new city.
Couple of years into my marriage and seeing all the changes in the JW my thirst for TTATT resurfaced. Since I love my wife and I knew that she also was not the biggest spiritual person I told her a few things. And at the beginning everything was cool. We even laughed about it. I guess she didn't take it seriously.
Then after a while she even became hostile against "apostate material" didn't want to know anything about TTATT told me I should became a more spiritual person. After a while and because I couldn't shut up about TTATT she even gave me an ultimatum, either leave the truth or she will report me to the elders. I didn't understand her reasoning, she told me to leave and then I wouldn't have to go to the meetings but we would stay together as a married couple.
I convinced her to not go through with her threads and I also promised her to stop talking about TTATT. See I didn't want to lose my wife over a religion. I maybe made the mistake of bringing the TTATT up when we were visiting my parents.
My dad is an elder but he likes to "read around". Means, he is not only reading witness literature about the bible but also "worldly" literature. So he seems to have an open mind and I guess he likes to play with fire. So every time we were at my parents or they were at our place my father would bring such up a topic and I would of course tell them everything I know.
After a while and this was a process over a couple of months, was wife grew distant of me. We did less and less things together. She developed a hobby which consumed 90% of her time. When I would ask her why we aren't doing anything together and basically live separate lives she would tell me, be happy that I found something to do and you can pursue your own hobbies.
While couple of months ago she would be happy when I was coming back from work and then immediately she would be dropping everything she was doing at the time and we would do activities together, this changed. She would only take notice of me that I am back from work. She said a quick hi and continued what she was doing before I was home.
After a while, and that's why I saw in her face, she even was regretting that I was home from work so early, because apparently even saying hi to me was consuming to much of her precious time away of me.
At the beginning of course I let her be, I thought maybe she needed some alone time. So I started picking up some habits as well. I started playing video games and watched some t shows alone. I would also occasionally go and play some pool with a friend.
While at first I enjoyed my freedom, after a couple of months were nothing in her behavior towards me changed I became worried. For quite some time we weren't sleeping in the same bed either. At the beginning she said that her cold would prevent me sleep well so she went to the guest room. She continued to sleep in the guest room because apparently my snoring became worse.
At the same her meeting attendance dropped. She started to become "sick" on days of the meetings so she would miss some and I would have to go alone (the irony right?).
So last week I came from work and saw the phone of my wife there and she was nowhere to be found. Since calling her wouldn't have made sense I picked her phone up and checked through her messages. I am usually not the guy snooping around in his wife phone. I am also not known to be the jealous husband but I still wanted to get insight into my wife's life. At least something small to see what went through my wife's head. And there it was. She was talking to other guys.
I have to add, three years ago something similar happened. She distanced herself of me and then started to call and message a worldly guy we met at a JW wedding. I found out because she accidentally left her Facebook account signed in on our computer. Back then I became furious and threw her out of our apartment. Couple of days later she said that nothing happened only phone calls and messages and what she did was the biggest mistake ever. So I took her back.
So how should I react this time?
So we talked. She said that she remains faithful to me to this date and that she was only messaging other guys just to talk, because for a reason she couldn't talk to me. Unbeknownst to me, my wife got convinced about TTATT but for a reason couldn't talk to me about that. At least that's what she said.
She also said that I robbed her of the fantasy that there is a god and eternal life in a paradise earth. Now that she lost all hope in life, because of me, she wants to live her life without any restrictions. She also wants to get dissociated from being a witness and also move out of our apartment within the next weeks. She also started smoking.
So I guess TTATT has a different effect on everybody. My knowledge of TTATT didn't change my personality. I didn't take TTATT as opportunity to grow distant from my wife or even seek to find other potential mates.
Even though we seem to patched up everything and we even started to spend time together again. I fear that this is just the calm before the storm. I feel betrayed and heartbroken ...
I miss my old being "in the truth" wife. Apparently my "worldly" wife has no place for me.A little I blame myself for it ...
So yeah be careful what you wish for, if you want to wake up your spouse, the outcome might be different than you expected.
 +13 / -0
Perry
Perry 3 days ago

She also said that I robbed her of the fantasy that there is a god and eternal life in a paradise earth.
Are you an atheist?
 +2 / -6
nevaagain
nevaagain 3 days ago
no, just telling her about TTATT is enough. Now she doesnt believe in a god anymore and she blames me for it.
 +3 / -0
jhine
jhine 3 days ago

It does seem that some people really do equate the WT with God , and of course this what the WT encourages . A kind of " if we can't have you no one will " attitude .
I am sorry for you being in this situation . I can only say that communication is the only way to save your relationship . Please keep trying to discuss this with your wife . Do you have children , if so saving your marriage would be the best option , obviously .
Jan
 +1 / -0
lurkernomore
lurkernomore 3 days ago

What does a it matter if he's an atheist, agnostic, theist or anything else for that matter Perry?
I think that blaming you for her loss of faith is unreasonable. If she didn't feel that there was any substance to the claims of ttatt then she would have continued being a JW regardless. It seems to me that it's an excuse to cut loose and do as she pleases.
I'm sorry for the situation you find yourself in and hope you can move forward positively from here!

 +2 / -0
DJS
DJS 3 days ago

nevaagain,
I don't mean to be mean, but you have been a member of this site for 15 years. You state that you have known that the WT was a cult for a long time - I'm assuming for at least 15 years. And yet, again I'm assuming you met and married the dub girl after you knew the truth about the cult, you decided to give it a go and marry her. Your comments do not seem to relate to having met and married her before you knew it was all a big bunch of steaming manure. If so, ignore some of my comments.
You are reaping the results of very bad decisions you have made even though you should have known what would or could occur. WTF did you think would happen? That you would fall in love with the Dark Lords all over again? What is it about the cult that gives you comfort? Hedging your bets just in case???
And now the WWOTE has threatened to out you to the elders. Yes, definitely a keeper. And she has made up a ridiculous reason why she wouldn't sleep with you. Again, a keeper. And she is texting other guys (I mean, really neva, "wordily" WTF??? I mean really, What. Tha. F**k? Wordly? You are dub through and through). And you are allowing her to blame shift her behaviors and beliefs to you. Dude, she's an entitled narcissist. You are enabling her.
Oh yes, a keeper, keeper, keeper. If you are an emasculated, simple minded man who needs to grow a pair - or find them where you are storing your brain. You aren't using either one of them.
Hop on the bus, GUS.
 +13 / -8
disposable hero of hypocrisy
disposable hero of hypocrisy 3 days ago

"I don't mean to be mean, but..." Is a bit like saying "I'm not racist, but..." You know what's coming next is going to be exactly what you just said it wasn't.
People are DIFFERENT. We react differently to situations. So he didn't act immediately like you might've done, so what? We can't all have Goliath-like testicles and glinty teeth like you have. Give the guy a break man, he's clearly hurting.
Nevaagain- commiserations man, I've nothing helpful to say, but thanks for the warning message.
 +5 / -2
DJS
DJS 3 days ago

Disposable,
I'm being straight up honest with this guy; I'm not being mean, it was simply a figure of speech.
His poor decisions got him here; more bad ones won't help him get out of it - just as more bad advice from the well meaning but misguided placaters won't help him. But if you find any error in my statements please point them out.
 +4 / -3
disposable hero of hypocrisy
disposable hero of hypocrisy 3 days ago

To be honest DJS, I didn't read his post as asking for help, I read it more as a warning tale of what could happen.
Only he knows his situation, and I assume that since we're not here to help counsel potential suicide candidates then maybe we shouldn't be advising individuals on areas that probably need marriage guidance counsellors, you know, trained professionals.
I didn't say you were wrong about anything. But there are ways and means of putting things that don't involve name calling.
 +6 / -1
DJS
DJS 3 days ago

If he posts a lovelorn OP on a public forum, by default he is asking for whatever comments come his way, including advice. That's the way this game is played, or I'm missing something???
I don't see it as name calling; it is a very accurate description of how he has acted for a long time and how he continues to let this woman walk all over him. And as I see, it is exactly what he needs. Hello. McFly.
 +4 / -2

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Be careful what you wish for (in case you want to wake up your spouse)
by nevaagain 3 days ago 36 Replies latest a day ago   jw friends
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Bonsai
Bonsai 3 days ago
Maybe she is bored with you Nevaagain. Sounds like you've still got a lot of dub in you even though you aren't a dub. Time to go into bad ass mode and spice up your marriage with some naughtiness.

 +6 / -0
WingCommander
WingCommander 3 days ago

This woman was a total c*nt with, OR without the WT indoctrination. It's just that now after learning TTATT, she feels free and unchained to be her true authentic c*nt-self. Drop her dumb azz like a bad habit. Set her free to roam the earth and contract multiple STD's, before she brings one home and gives one to you!
She's a self-centered narcissist who thinks the world should revolve around her. She has ZERO empathy for your thoughts and feelings, which also makes her a sociopath.
Has she taken out any life insurance policies on you lately, or increased the coverage?

 +12 / -0
disposable hero of hypocrisy
disposable hero of hypocrisy 3 days ago

Yes, that's exactly how it's played. We all play it differently, and that's fair enough. I choose to not play it meanly because I can get enough mean at any kingdom hall. Because I see people needing support or empathy. If you want to be Biff Tannen, that's fine. I'll be Marty any day. Now where's my hover board?
 +7 / -0
DJS
DJS 3 days ago

Disposable,
What do you think Dr. Phil would have told this guy? But keep repeating your 'mean' mantra. If that makes you feel all nicety nice then go for it. If neva keeps doing what he has been doing he will get exactly what he has been getting. Being nice and avoiding saying the obvious things he needs to hear that may enable him to break this pattern of very bad decisions is not really nice at all.
Just say thank you DJS. I can help you all, but you have to let me.
 +3 / -4
MarkofCane
MarkofCane 3 days ago

Sorry nevaagain
Sound like her true authentic personality surfaced to the top. Once you realize no one is watching you, their are choices to make. Who really am I? What do I stand for? and what is my passion and purpose in life? She is merely being her true self, move on...... she clearly isn't the person you taught she was. Didn't hear anything about kids consider your self lucky.

 +5 / -0
LostGeneration
LostGeneration 3 days ago

So we talked. She said that she remains faithful to me to this date and that she was only messaging other guys just to talk, because for a reason she couldn't talk to me. Unbeknownst to me, my wife got convinced about TTATT but for a reason couldn't talk to me about that. At least that's what she said.
Your wife had/is having an affair.
 +13 / -0
DJS
DJS 3 days ago

To the play nice crowd (BTW, your regular play nice OPs make me want to projectile vomit). I forgot for a moment, well Wing Commander and I forgot for a moment where we are. Mea culpa.



HE'S a victim. YOU'RE a victim. I"M a victim. WE'RE ALL VICTIMS.
Play nice crowd: I can help you. But you have to let me.
 +5 / -4
LV101
LV101 3 days ago

DJS - Please tell me what WWOTE stands for, thanks.
Nevaagain - I'm sorry you're having to deal with this misery. Just know that you don't love (really true love) anyone that abuses you. A narcissist/sociopath does not love anyone. Some comments are brutal but we need them all at times (more than we like) and we go thru the same lessons until we get it.
Belief in liars is because we want what we want -- our fantasies.
 +4 / -0
freemindfade
freemindfade 3 days ago

If it was not knowing TTATT that held your marriage together then it was held together with lies.
Life is short, if she wants to be with other dudes and you you don't like it let her go. There is too much good stuff out there to be stuck in a situation that isn't beneficial to both of you. Its not fair to either of you. If you both start to learn to live honestly with who each of you really are, it may break up your marriage, but maybe you will find out that you can be friends and move on to find someone that will want to be with you exclusively without fear of punishment or reward of paradise.
Time to start being real.
 +6 / -0
nmthinker
nmthinker 3 days ago

The watchtower chains got broken and she doesn't want to be with you anymore. I presume the reason she didn't want to discuss TTATT with you was because she didn't want to face this fact.
It happens in the real world, people fall out of love. I'm very sorry. Think about it this way though, would you rather her be brainwashed and stick with you because of a controlling religion? Now you have the opportunity to find someone who is right for you and will love you as much as you deserve.
 +7 / -0

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Be careful what you wish for (in case you want to wake up your spouse)
by nevaagain 3 days ago 36 Replies latest a day ago   jw friends
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Witness My Fury
Witness My Fury 3 days ago
Your marriage was a sham anyway as you married her under false pretences. She probably worked that part out early on as if your marriage was any good she wouldnt have messed around then and again now. She did more than talk btw.
 +3 / -0
FayeDunaway
FayeDunaway 3 days ago
Waking up is rocky. She's going through the same tumultuous mess most of us went through. I wish she hadn't started smoking, cuz that's hard to fix. But she is questioning everything right now. Including her relationship with you. You said your relationship is getting better so that's good. Thanks for letting us see this other perspective of what can happen if people drift apart. I hope you have some good discussions and are very open with each other. But mostly, give her time, she's in shock and it takes a year or two to recover. After some time you may need to reassess your life and see if you love each other on a deep enough level to stay together.
 +1 / -0
DJS
DJS 3 days ago

LV101,
Wicked Witch Of The East.
 +1 / -0
Doubtfully Yours
Doubtfully Yours 3 days ago

Waking up is such a personal thing. I do not want to wake up anyone; let each find their way through life.
DY
 +2 / -0
wisdomfrombelow
wisdomfrombelow 3 days ago

So how should I react this time?
You have a difficult situation in your relationship. I am not a certified counselor or anything else but hesitate to make an evaluation of things with so little information and only one side of the story. If you want to try to work things out a qualified counselor might help you both communicate better with each other.
What you are willing to put up with and what you need from a relationship is unique to you. Perhaps your wife has mental issues? Some people can tolerate physical issues and gladly take care of someone who might be house bound or otherwise very sick while others might not like the limitations it puts on them.
Perhaps it was not the information concerning TTAT that upset her but the method by which it was conveyed. I hope you figure out what to do next and I hope you can find peace in whatever the outcome is.

 
Incognito
Incognito 2 days ago

Suggest consulting a marriage counselor if you both wish to attempt to save the marriage. If she doesn't wish to continue, then you have your answer so any attempt to force the marriage to continue, will probably result in two unhappy people and an eventual separation/divorce.
Even if she refuses to talk to a marriage counselor, perhaps a few sessions would be beneficial for you even if you go alone.
 +2 / -0
OnTheWayOut
OnTheWayOut 2 days ago

Many marriages end over the religion, some may end after both parties wake up and realize they only stayed together for the religion or because it was expected of them by friends and family.
Still, I can't say that it would have been better for you to stay at the Kingdom Hall and stay silent, or fade out and say nothing at all about TTATT. A huge part of her problem with you was your discussing this in front of her parents. You may have been able to fade away quietly and make subtle attempts to free your wife.
Or not....
But I tell you what. I love my wife enough to continue to hope and continue to apply subtle attempts. Direct attempts have failed, so I have to be in for the long run. If it fails, it fails. If we divorce later because "the truth" is what kept her married to me, that's okay too. That would cost me financially, but that's okay. She deserves the truth about that religion and I hope she gets it.
On the contrary side, my main connection to my continual marriage is money. Divorce would cause me to lose a part of my pension. My wife has the potential, but doesn't earn as much as I do. So if money were not an issue, if we could both have a comfortable living separately, I would probably deliver the ultimatum sooner or later- leave the religion or I leave. It's not that I don't love her enough to stick around, it's just that the religion can become a huge negative in the way of our happiness.
 +1 / -0
DJS
DJS 2 days ago

Willie Nelson on marriage and divorce: “The reason divorces are so expensive is they’re worth it”

 +2 / -1
nevaagain
nevaagain 2 days ago

First of all thank you all very much for the replies, sorry that I couldn't respond earlier.
I am not saying I am not to blame or that I didn't do any mistakes. I found myself alone in a new city, so knowing TTATT but still continuing going to the meetings just to not feel alone and develop friendships didn't seem like a bad decision back then (over 10 years ago). Knowing TTATT and still marrying someone might have been a bad decision. But still, she wasn't so good in the truth or else she wouldn't have married me.
So everyone wakes up differently thats a fact and I am not blaming her, really I am not. Even if she would have cheated on me.
So my intention with this topic was just to warn everybody that it can go either way and that somebody you know for many years all of a sudden might show personality traits which were unknown to you.
Our marriage had problems from the start (unrelated to TTATT) just like so many young couples of witnesses have and these problems keep resurfacing and keep getting mentioned even 10 years after. Often I was at a point of giving up but since quitting and restarting is not an option (because its not a video game) our marriage might lead to a divorce anyway.
 +1 / -0
Lieu
Lieu 2 days ago

That sucks!!!! Without the JW smothering her real personality came out. That's the thing with JWs, you don't know who they really are because the real them is being surpressed. It's not a 'new personality', it's a fake one.
Sucks but I think it's best that you know who she really is as opposed to who she pretended to be.
 +1 / -0

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Be careful what you wish for (in case you want to wake up your spouse)
by nevaagain 3 days ago 36 Replies latest a day ago   jw friends
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Perry
Perry 2 days ago

The watchower positions itself as a savior by high-jacking the promises of the new-covenant, while at the same time promising an end to accountability at death with non existence as a worst case scenario.
When people jettisone the Watchtower, they are still left with the worldview that the watchtower installed, no accountability at death & an annihilation of their soul.
Someone once said that character is proved by what you do when no one else is around.
We learned little character and much "pretending" as witnesses. Most of us were academy award winner actors.
Now, without a stage she's not pretending anymore and the inner person is peeking out.
Through Christ, God offers a new spirit that cannot sin. When followed, the pretending disappears, and a much more authentic life ensues after redemption. One of the first things a person should do when they leave a bible cult is to put forth some effort to find out what they want to do with Jesus.
Jesus is always the best answer for ___________(fill in blank)___________ .
 +1 / -1
stillin
stillin 2 days ago

I don't think of knowing TTATT as a ticket to not being a decent human being. Honesty is still (usually) the best course. Kindness rocks! Mutual respect should be cultivated, with or without one of you being an active Witness.
I know what you mean about the convenience of ready-made friends and associates if you are a Witness who has moved to another city. That part is pretty cool. Too bad about the rest of it.
 
TheListener
TheListener 2 days ago

Damn DJS you are cold!
Sorry to hear about this Nevaagain. I hope you both get through this with as little stress as possible.
 +1 / -1
LV101
LV101 2 days ago

DJS - Ahh, thanks for definition. I'm so used to trying to figure out the cult's acronyms/abbreviations, etc., on here.
 
DJS
DJS 2 days ago

TheListener,
I'm actually a softie, but he got himself in this mess. Ignoring that and playing nice by treating him like a complete victim serves no purpose, least of all in assisting neva. There is of course always 2 sides to every story. All we know is what neva told us and we can glean from his tenure on this site, the length of time he has known the cult is a cult and the kinds of crap he states he is putting up with from the WWOTE, all the while letting her emasculate him and blame shift all of her issues to him.
That makes me want to projectile vomit. The only thing worse is the placating, enabling, victimizing play nice crowd that feeds into the very reasons neva is in this mess in the first place. That really makes me want to projectile vomit.
 +2 / -1
millie210
millie210 2 days ago

after reading this thread I have a new saying...
Finding out TTATT doesnt change character, it reveals it.
 +5 / -0
Doubtfully Yours
Doubtfully Yours a day ago

DJS and all others,
Some men/women like to be cheated on because they enjoy the reconciliation phase. It is really sick.
This guy sounds like some piece of work.
DY
 +0 / -1

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Regional Convention
by raven 4 days ago 14 Replies latest 3 days ago   jw experiences
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raven
raven 4 days ago
So how many are not going to the Regional Convention this year? It will be my first year not attending as part of my fade.. I remember going for all of my childhood into adult hood, participating in stage parts even.. However, last assembly I was already mentally checked out. I remember looking around and seeing all of people bobbing & nodding at the program talks that had been previously repeated time and time again.. Almost seemed like hypnosis.. I also had a hard time with the fact that we're all supposed to be "friends" and everyone had always seemed to be so judgmental.. Especially at Conventions & Assemblies.. Things like who had the best outfit for the days, who looked the prettiest, who can snag the single MS brother.. Who took the most spiritual food out of the program, how many times can you tally mark Jehovah's name. BARF- It always seemed like everyone was eager for the programs to be over with so that they could mingle and gossip.. It was never encouraging for me, ever. I always left feeling drained, sad, and not good enough for Jehovah. Anyways, I'm looking forward to enjoying my Friday, Saturday, & Sunday doing whatever I want!

 +9 / -0
TimDrake1914
TimDrake1914 4 days ago

"Almost seemed like hypnosis". More like "ACTUAL hypnosis". Research has found that constant repetition does have a hypnotic effect on people.
But yeah, enjoy your weekend, cause I will have to be there. The only thing I'm going to tally is the batshit-crazy/cult reinforcing comments.
 +11 / -0
Phizzy
Phizzy 3 days ago

Before I finally woke up properly and left in early 2008, I decided we would miss the 2007 D.C (as it was then) Convention.
Nobody noticed !
So, my last DC (RC) was 2006, I do not miss them , or the bout of depression that always hit me either during or right at the end of them, why was that ?
 +6 / -0
Londo111
Londo111 3 days ago

I haven't attended a convention since 2009. Of course, I didn't wake up until 2011.I skipped 2010 due to personal problems, but had I attended, the "overlapping" generations teaching would've woken me up earlier and saved me allot of grief.
 +5 / -0
ctrwtf
ctrwtf 3 days ago

The only thing I can remember thinking about at the "District Assemblies" was how great the hotel pool would feel and "where are we going for dinner?"
 +5 / -0
LisaRose
LisaRose 3 days ago

I have been out for 16 years, so of course I haven't been in all that time. I don't miss it, it now seemed insane to spend good money on a hotel, gas and food, get dressed up and drive several hours just to sit in some uncomfortable stadium seats for hours on end, just to be bored silly and be made to feel guilty for not wanting to be a pioneer.
If I am going to spend that kind of money now there had better be a beach and some cocktails involved.
🍹👙👒
 +11 / -0
JW GoneBad
JW GoneBad 3 days ago
I absolutely dread Regional Conventions. By 1:30 when the afternoon program and talks begin a high percentage of JWs are dosing and nodding out of sheer boredom. RCs are an absolute waste of time!
 +7 / -0
baker
baker 3 days ago
use to enjoy buying the left over cuts of meat for meal tickets at the end.
 +2 / -0
zeb
zeb 3 days ago
We drove for many miles to one convention. I saw so many cars so badly so selfishly parked and no where for ourselves (nb many others) I drove out. The kids said nothing but I think they and my wife were glad. and the last Rc  I attended the speaker was way behind time and a 'ethnic' meeting had finished and they spilled out through the rest of us all chattering away making a dreadful noise. We couldnt hear the speaker at all who should have just  cut it then and there but no he  just kept on it was farcical.
 +3 / -0
SnakesInTheTower
SnakesInTheTower 3 days ago

I haven't been since 2007. I went to my last meeting of any type right after the DC, attended the public talk and walked out before the WT. Drove to a nearby cemetery, got out of my meeting clothes, changed into jeans and a shirt and went to work... never looked back.
Snakes

 +5 / -0

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Regional Convention
by raven 4 days ago 14 Replies latest 3 days ago   jw experiences
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WingCommander
WingCommander 3 days ago
My last DC was in Philadelphia, 1994, or possibly 1996. Wow, 20 years ago already? Time flies when you get a life? My last Circuit Assembly at the Grantville Assembly Hall was around 2000 perhaps. Bored out of my mind. No one gave a crap about me or my mom. We weren't in their uppity spiritual or economic "cliques", so no one cared, no one missed us. I am more convinced then ever that the cult is filled with social retards. I don't miss any of them, and the ones I do miss were the older, elderly types whom my parents studied with in the late 70's and early 80's, all of whom have long since passed away. Hey, I thought that generation wasn't supposed to pass away? Thanks alot for the lies, WT cult!

 +2 / -0
BeautifulMind
BeautifulMind 3 days ago
This will be my first time not going too. Last year we were mentally out for just a few weeks, but went because it was my in-laws convention too and my husband wasn't ready to spill the beans, which was fine. We left early all three days and walked around with our kids most of the program.
 +1 / -0
crazy_flickering_light
crazy_flickering_light 3 days ago
First time I try to avoid it. While I'm full (fake) in at this time, I hope that my plans will work and I don't have to go.
 +1 / -0
Introvert 2
Introvert 2 3 days ago
Went last summer Montreal assembly for a last ditch attempt at starting up again. Felt ill during the WT drone session ran out of auditorium almost fainted, some type of panic attack - low blood suger then drove out knowing full well I would never set foot there again. I did see some cute women in over tight dresses was the high point of it all.
 
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 3 days ago
i went up to 75 and then in 89 and the occasionally session in between those years and after till I left
 +1 / -0

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Today's Text - Brainwash Your Children!
by Divergent 4 days ago 12 Replies latest 4 hours ago   jw friends
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Divergent
Divergent 4 days ago

With the increasing number of young ones leaving "the truth", it is critical to brainwash them regularly from young!

Monday, May 16
The one who has dealings with the stupid will fare badly.—Prov. 13:20
A child could drift away gradually on a spiritually dangerous path, being tempted by harmful association or degrading entertainment. To prevent such a situation from developing, act quickly if you recognize potential weak spots. Work at fortifying Christian qualities that your children have but that may need to be strengthened. (2 Pet. 1:5-8) The regular period for family worship is an excellent time for you to do that. In outlining this arrangement, the October 2008 Kingdom Ministry stated: “Family heads are encouraged to shoulder their responsibility before Jehovah to ensure that a meaningful, regular program of family Bible study is followed.” Are you taking full advantage of this loving provision to shepherd your children? Trust that your children deeply appreciate your putting priority on taking care of their spiritual need.—Matt. 5:3; Phil. 1:10. w14 9/15 3:10, 11
In other words, teach your children that everyone who is NOT a JW is stupid, any non-JW association is harmful, and any "worldly" entertainment is degrading. Brainwash your children to follow the cult unquestionably from childhood, get them baptized at a young age instead of allowing them to make their OWN choice when they are more mature, and do not hesitate to shun them if they choose to leave. That's how you do it!!!
 +2 / -0
tiki
tiki 4 days ago
Looks like nothing more than a guilt nudge....are you doing that family worship thing......
 +2 / -0
Half banana
Half banana 4 days ago

"Have dealings with the stupid and you will certainly fair badly."  Prov 13:20  
Been there and done that with the Watchtower organisation.
 +6 / -0
Spiral
Spiral 4 days ago
They are really upping the guilt trip for parents lately. Get those kids baptized early!!! Ugh.
 +2 / -0
MarkofCane
MarkofCane 4 days ago

The sooner your kids are on mother's nipple, the sooner we can dictate their future.
So fathers do your job!

 +1 / -0
John Free
John Free 3 days ago
This is a case of parents being manipulated to manipulate their children. The use of the word 'encouraged' in the KM is laughable- its not encouragement its scaremongering, inducing fear with the statement 'shoulder your responsibility before Jehovah' - yes folks the big J ain't gonna be happy with you-so ya better start manipulating those kids! Praps you could scare them senseless as we do you!
 +2 / -0
purrpurr
purrpurr 3 days ago
I wonder how long it will be before they will be baptising toddlers?
 +2 / -0
Divergent
Divergent 3 days ago
More and more young people are waking up & leaving "the truth". INSTEAD of acknowledging organizational faults which cause young ones to leave, the organization puts the blame on parents & encourages them to brainwash their children more!
 +1 / -0
Lieu
Lieu 3 days ago

Kids don't "appreciate" more meetings, more lectures, more sit still time. It's apparent that the one giving this child rearing advice doesnt have any children.
 +1 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 3 days ago

More repressed and guilt ridden children will be burdened with a lack of self esteem and growth, as they feel compelled to fit into the mould of parent pleasing obligation....for fear of being destroyed by a "loving" God.....
In other words, FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt) or as the society says "Listen obey and be blessed"
 +2 / -0

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Today's Text - Brainwash Your Children!
by Divergent 4 days ago 12 Replies latest 4 hours ago   jw friends
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ToesUp
ToesUp 3 days ago
I guess the scripture could be the interpretation of the reader. WT is, in my interpretation, the stupid one, so I quit having dealings with them. Guess it could go both ways.
 +2 / -0
raven
raven 3 days ago
No wonder young ones are leaving the borg.. Too much expectations to be this molded people pleasing person designed by parents through brain washing and indoctrination.. It's sad.. No one can truly be themselves. The daily text seemed to basically ask parents to keep their kids on a tight leash.. It's only a matter of time before they break free and escape, ( my exact situation ) .. Sigh, It never felt loving when my parents did that.

 +3 / -1
sarahsmile
sarahsmile 4 hours ago

And compare the NWT with NIV:

Proverbs 13:20 new international version
Walk with the wise and become wise, for a companion of fools suffers harm.
A wise one would tell the youth to get a college education, because pioneering after high school one will suffer harm! That is the bottom line!
Clearly, the stupid writers of the Daily Text lacks wisdom to understand Proverbs.








 

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