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Prince: frustration and relief
by AFreeBeliever 2 days ago 7 Replies latest 16 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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AFreeBeliever
AFreeBeliever 2 days ago

I haven't posted in a long time, but all this news re: Prince has brought up alot of "stuff" for me. Having been a born-in 3rd generation until being disfellowshipped, losing all of my family and friends I had since birth in one big go, I find myself going between frustration, and honestly some feelings of resentment, and ...relief...regarding Prince (who, by the way, I am not disparaging personally, just, as most of us know, he would have been held up as the perfect example of what not to be by the Watchtower organization and the double-standard/hypocrisy is rather stunning). Resentment/frustration, due to my personal experiences and those of many I knew.
I had left the organization when I was 17, a few years after being pressured into being baptized, and moved away to a new town where not one person associated me with Jehovah's Witnesses and was living there for over 10 years, but because I wasn't disfellowshipped I still regularly saw my family.
Meanwhile, a friend of mine was relocating from across the states and needed a place to stay for a month or so while she got situated. I lived alone in the country in a 3-bedroom house and said of course she could stay at my place for a few weeks.
One day, two elders I had never met, showed up at my door and said they understood I had a lesbian staying in my house, and as a baptized member of JW's I had a choice: she either had to leave or I was going to be disfellowshipped.
To say I was astounded was an understatement. First they said they were doing it "to protect the reputation of the Witnesses", when I pointed out that no one considered me a Witness and besides, I know male witnesses and female witnesses often shared a house, they tried another tack, "to protect me". Well, you know how it ends. I must add that these two, eventually three, elders, were some of the most arrogant and unloving individuals I have ever had to interact with.
Which brings me to Prince: can you imagine, if any of us had dressed like that, acted like that, wrote songs like that, did artwork like that, and attended our old congregations, how we would have been treated? My father had been a witness for years, then drifted away, and when he died wasn't allowed a funeral in the Kingdom Hall because he smoked cigarettes.
So, I think the reasons for frustration are apparent, but I am also feeling some relief over this. Because the more things like this happen, the double-standard and hyprocrisy with a famous, wealthy person like Prince that the whole world can see, the more chance there is for the sincere folks in the organization to wake up and see something is terribly wrong, Jesus has left the building.
The ARC was very eye-opening for those of us who watched it, but the average JW didn't. But this was un-missable.
So sorry for the long rant, but in the end, I am glad, despite my own pain that I went through and others I have known, that this was on the world stage, and maybe, just maybe, it will wake up some folks who couldn't be reached any other way, At least it plants a seed, something is very, very wrong with the group they belong to. Thanks for listening.

 +16 / -0
SafeAtHome
SafeAtHome 2 days ago
Thank you for sharing. Unfortunately sometimes unless a person is directly impacted by something, they will never wake up. But this whole thing with Prince, well it boggles the mind how this can't help but to lead some with a modicum of thinking ability left to question the double standard.
 +5 / -0
steve2
steve2 2 days ago

AFreeBeliever, you are actually a very tactful person - providing an informative description of how the Witnesses show up on your doorstep when they feel the need to snoop but otherwise are unheard of. I'm taking it that as a result of the elders' visits, you were disfellowshipped? Man, what arrogance on their part!
Yes, Prince led a charmed life for a JW. He was seriously addicted to pain medication and his close JW associates - including elder Larry Graham - would have known. Evidently when he attended meetings at the local Kingdom Hall, he kept to himself, talking to only a select few.
Talk about living in a world of his own. Also, on those occasions when interviewed about his JW beliefs, he betrayed an astonishingly simplistic outlook. If that was a calibre of his thought processes, no wonder he had uncritically swallowed the JW message - although he had no trouble "bending" the rules. For example, whilst he claimed he no longer celebrated his own birthday, he willingly performed for other people at their birthdays. He was a master of having it all ways.
His last CD had a photo/painting of him wearing tri-sunglasses with the third lens place a mid-temple - a not subtle reference to the mystical "third" eye.
He got away with a lot and was given a Kingdom Hall memorial service. If this happened in any other religious group, JWs would pounce upon it as the hypocrisy of the churches of Christendom.
 +15 / -0
millie210
millie210 a day ago

I really relate to your post AFree,
I am beyond shocked at the audacity I have been seeing on the part of the Org.
The welcoming parties and dancing on stage for the international assemblies.
The JW . Org flags flying over a rented building for last years summer conventions.
The ARC fiasco - claiming they are not the "only" ones teaching the truth, (whaaat?)
and on and on it goes.
This ridiculous bending of principles and precepts they sat out at the Annual Meeting (no metro sexual, no tight pants, no colored socks) to accommodate "Prince fans" and by that I am NOT referring to fans of his music, I am talking about his JW groupies that put this Kingdom Hall service together,
I am shocked and disgusted but overall I am relived like you. There must be so much in fighting at the top that the result is no one is flying the plane.
Let it become more and more obvious!
 +8 / -0
joe134cd
joe134cd a day ago

AFreeBeliever I really can relate to you experience because I witnessed something very similar to what you described, twice.
(1) My Grandfathers funeral wasn't allowed in the KH because he had been DFed some years before for smoking. I might also add at the time he converted to the religion smoking wasn't the issue it later became. We almost had to plead with the elder to conduct the service for him.
(2) I know of another example where the funeral was conducted in a funeral chapel because both daughters had been DFed. The deceased had been an uber dub for many years.
You are correct about the level of hypocrisy and double standards for prince, and surly this has to wake some of the R&F up.
 +6 / -0
JWdaughter
JWdaughter a day ago
Also, how many congregations have a memorial service without it being requested by the family? They did this strictly for their OWN reasons, none of which had anything to do with memorializing a uber dub or a respected or much loved brother. It had to do with dragging in big name$ to a kingdom hall and trapping them into an hour long recruiting session. I'm sure the donation box was exercised more than usual last sunday.
 +5 / -0
cha ching
cha ching a day ago

I feel what you are saying, AFB.... You tried to do something nice for someone, and the WT squashes it..... That organization is not one of "love"..... they are the Borg. Really.
It is so hypocritical for them to treat rich people one way, and the 'not famous' another. They hurt people in so many ways, especially because you hear them repeat at assemblies/ conventions, "we show love the world around" , "we are truly loving our neighbors" then act the opposite, in a clandestine way.
You are right... this just might help wake some people up... at least wrestle with their consciences...
You are a good person, the WT is the bad guy...
Hang in there,
cha ching
 +3 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot 16 hours ago

AFreeBeliever - "Jesus has left the building."
Assuming he was ever in it in the first place.
x
It's not much a stretch to go from "they had it once, but lost it" to "they probably never had it".
 +1 / -0

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May 16, 2016 TO ALL CONGREGATIONS IN BRITAIN Re: Donations to the Worldwide Work Using jw.org
by wifibandit a day ago 15 Replies latest 17 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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wifibandit
wifibandit a day ago

May 16, 2016 TO ALL CONGREGATIONS IN BRITAIN Re: Donations to the Worldwide Work Using jw.org


Adding it to the list...
◦May 2015 Broadcast

◦Jehovah Will Care for Our Needs

◦US, UK, Italy and Canada versions of the 2014-03-29 BOE Re: Adjustment to financing Kingdom Hall and Assembly Hall construction worldwide.

◦https://www.jw.org/apps/E_DONATE

◦Supporting the Worldwide Work with Tax-Effective Giving (cp-E Bi) is the UK version of the

◦Charitable Planning to Benefit Kingdom Service Worldwide (cp-E) brochure in the US.

◦Which is pushed in w15 11/15 pp. 14-15 Show Appreciation for Jehovah’s Generosity (They do this every November)

◦The Org's UK site https://www.jwgift.org/Leaflets.aspx also has

◦Making a Bequest Supporting the Worldwide Work of Jehovah’s Witnesses (cpi-E Bi)

Jehovah’s Witnesses do not solicit funds.

◦January 2016 Broadcast

 +5 / -0
Lieu
Lieu a day ago

NOPE!!!!! No monies from me.
You don't get executive suites to live in off my dime; while I'm living in a hovel. Get a job and pay your own way.
 +7 / -0
wifibandit
wifibandit a day ago

many have requested that we make readily available information about ways they may support Kingdom inter-
ests in their area. To meet this request, we are providing a country-specific donation information page on jw.org.


LOL. I'm sure people are just dying to find out ways to give them more money!



 +6 / -0
Anders Andersen
Anders Andersen a day ago

Wtf now we can create an account and setup automatic recurring donations?
 +3 / -1
oppostate
oppostate a day ago

I'm suffering from a recurring and chronic urge not to give them any money whatsoever!
It seems to be exacerbated, irritated beyond relief, every time they ask for money.
I'm hoping it's contagious.
 +5 / -0
steve2
steve2 a day ago

I am tempted to make an ongoing donation of $5.00 a month to jw org and have the following reference appear on the organization's bank statement::
Payer: "An apostate";
Reference: To assist spread of lies";
Invoice #: "666"
I do not think my donation of money will be declined. 
 +7 / -0
JHK
JHK a day ago
Money is the root of all evil...

 +2 / -2
pepperheart
pepperheart a day ago
Not true JHK "the LOVE of money is the root of all evil"

 +3 / -0
Virgochik
Virgochik a day ago
Anderson Andersen, I'm sorry I accidentally touched dislike. I meant to like your comment!
 +2 / -0
Anders Andersen
Anders Andersen a day ago

@Steve,
Yeah that idea popped up here as well.
Make regular donations of the lowest amount, reveal bits of ttatt in the description fields....wake up the money men...lol
 

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May 16, 2016 TO ALL CONGREGATIONS IN BRITAIN Re: Donations to the Worldwide Work Using jw.org
by wifibandit a day ago 15 Replies latest 17 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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OnTheWayOut
OnTheWayOut a day ago
If they have a broadcast on how "Jehovah Will Care for [Their] Needs" then don't send any money at all.
 
Lieu
Lieu a day ago

Yep OTWO, do to them as they do to you. "The Golden Rule."
If they say I need to wait on Jah to provide for me, then they can do the same.
A shepherd doesn't ask the sheep for money, he asks the boss if he needs more.
 +5 / -0
punkofnice
punkofnice a day ago
I want all my money back! If I'd have known what they ACTUALLY did with that money I would have pilfered from the contribution boxes and given it to Oxfam or someone.
 +2 / -0
blondie
blondie 19 hours ago
My husband was the accounts servant in 3 congregations and my stepfather in 4. About 7 families donated each month under $75. And no under $10 amounts. Unless they had someone with millions, they were always trying to pay the local bills. Until they make it mandatory and monitor in writing they WTS will be always asking.
 
WTWizard
WTWizard 19 hours ago

I will not donate anything through worm-worm-worm-dot-jw-borg. My silver is for me, not them. And I would rather pay for more silver than donate for an organization that is working for worldwide damnation.
Which will do me more good when the dollar becomes toilet paper. I am seeing a time when silver will be so valuable that a good wage for a day's very hard labor will be one silver dime--which will support a luxurious lifestyle. You will be able to buy a nice, BIG house with a five-ounce bar of silver. While all those jokehovians will be selling out at a loss to move into tiny apartments, I will simply buy a very nice house with one of the 5 ounce bars of silver I have stashed away. And the washtowel is getting zero.

 +1 / -0
menrov
menrov 17 hours ago

Funny...opening of letter is Dear Brothers....
No sisters....well...lucky them
 +2 / -0

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Do JWs ever doubt that the end is really coming?
by dogon a day ago 15 Replies latest 8 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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dogon
dogon a day ago
As a former Dubber I had many occasions to doubt that the end was coming. I was told it was OK to doubt but not to think about it too much and wait on Jehovah. That bull shit lasted until they changed the meaning of Generation in 95 and that was the end of that bull shit for me. I was otta there like a long tail cat in a room full of rocking chairs. I can remember talking with an elder I used to work with that was dogmatic follower. I used to ask him if he were 75 and the end was not here would he second guess that the society was right. He said he would be disappointing but not to the point of doubting the cult. Well that is easier said then done. I don't know what he thinks today, I was drummed out due to not believing. I kept enough distance that they never could get enough rope to hang me, now I really don't give a crap, my family that was in the cult are all passed on so I don' t give a fuck what those assholes do. But I now live in Florida and I was from Michigan. So they don't have any contact with me to DF my ass. I wonder though with things never happening like the cult predicts do many doubt the validity of the cult?

 +11 / -1
DesirousOfChange
DesirousOfChange a day ago

Even when they were only doubts, many of us were smart enough not to say anything out loud. Does that spoke up or seen as troublemakers at best, apostates at worst
Doc
 +4 / -0
JW_Rogue
JW_Rogue a day ago
I think everyone has doubts sometimes, most JWs simply suppress those doubts with a facade of confidence and thought stopping WT phrases. Since they are always around other JWs the group reinforces the belief that the end is...soon.
 +6 / -0
TheLiberator
TheLiberator a day ago

Some (even hard core), are conscious that the end could come, but it is not there focus. They do not run with all the 1914/generation crap. Some are in it just to serve Jehovah and the Watchtower is just the vehicle.
I was one of those. Back in 1988, I wrote to the society, asking if 1914 generation teaching was similar to the trinity or hellfire, in that we will receive no new light. I never seen the letter, but the elders received it and sent the secretary to talk with me. He said: "TheLiberator, we serve Jehovah forever."
I said, "but the generation of 1914.....
Secretary: "We serve Jehovah forever"
I said, "but...
Secretary: "TheLiberator, we serve Jehovah forever."
That conversation made me happy. Nobody wants to get there hopes up. I knew then that things will change. Timetables always bothered me. I wrote that letter because I was working rural territory and I had mentioned that I don't have to worry about many things since I would never get that old. And the presiding overseer's wife said, "that's what we all said" with a sarcastic laugh. My mother in law made the same comment a few years ago. So I believe many don't feel it is coming in there life. Younger ones might, since they feel life is this long, long journey. Not.
 +4 / -0
Introvert 2
Introvert 2 a day ago
I know an elder out west we share a hobby and are FB friends, he recently mentioned that he hopes top be in as good a shape as a 75 years old I posted about on an FB group page when he gets to be that age. We are both early fifties.. I too thought I wouldn't grow old got in in my late thirties lasted ten years at best until I tuckered out.
 +3 / -0
Londo111
Londo111 17 hours ago

Of course, every JW contends with doubts and cognitive dissonance. I suspect every JW’s has doubts that wax and wane, but never fully goes away. But the barrier of undue influence is steep and keeps them from making a real examination of things like 607, 1914, whether world conditions have been getting worse since 1914, the organization’s many failed predictions…
Until there is such a real examination or reality testing, doubt can easily go both ways. If a JW comes to the conclusion that the end is not around the corner, they might have fearful doubts about that conclusion. “What if it is?”
To some extent, I believe many JWs, while to some extent do believe it, have an authentic corner of their identity that does not fully buy in to the full implications to the teaching that the Armageddon is very close and that most of their non-JW acquaintances, family, coworkers, neighbors, and seven billion others are about to be murdered for all eternity. Of course, this might include inactive and irregular JW, and to some extent, those who were active and could’ve arranged their circumstances to preach more. Otherwise, they would do as the Org prescribed and pioneer, or sell their homes and move to where the “need was greater”, or try to get into Bethel.
Many do live practical lives with day jobs, having a place to live and making plans for the near future to some extent. Of course, Armageddon does still loom in their minds and effects their decisions. They seem caught between fear and the practical. That tension is not easy.
 +2 / -0
Simon Templar
Simon Templar 15 hours ago
In my congregation, almost all of the people that have been involved over 30 years+ (and there are many) have great doubts about the end coming before they die, if at all. Some no longer care, and have told me that. Most are so old, they can't get out. It is ingrained in them, or they are connected in too many ways (marriage, family, friends, landlord, etc).
 +1 / -0
konceptual99
konceptual99 14 hours ago

There are three consistent messages that are being sent out time and time again by the organisation:
1 - "the end is really, really, really close. Look at this video showing people just like you hiding out in basements. Look at this video of someone dressed just like you are greeting their resurrected family member"
2 - "Don't try and put a time scale to the time of the end. Look at all the elderly who still are faithful. Make sure your faith is strong for the long term."
3 - "Jehovah already knows when the end will be. It's scheduled. It's not late because it's always been scheduled for the future."
Most Witnesses placate themselves by picking one of these in rotation to block the cognitive dissonance.
 +3 / -0
Doubtfully Yours
Doubtfully Yours 14 hours ago

With so many fails, very few behave as if the end is really near.
This doomsday religion is wrong in this regard. Some earlier than others, ultimately, we will all die.
DY
 
Giordano
Giordano 13 hours ago

When I was pioneering where the need is great back in the early 1960's I took a lunch break and parked near a school and the children were out running around having a recess.
It struck me that most of them were not going to make it through Armageddon and two things hit me one was why in the hell would a god need to kill innocent children as well as their parents and why in hell did I think anything the Society said was true?
Just that quick and it all unraveled for me. My wife and I started a fade and moved we were permanently out. They didn't shun you back then if you no longer associated. Anyway we were in the wind.
 +1 / -0

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Do JWs ever doubt that the end is really coming?
by dogon a day ago 15 Replies latest 8 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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Doubtfully Yours
Doubtfully Yours 13 hours ago

The other day an elderly lady told me the end was so close that she was sure she would live through it. I just smiled and said "hmmm...." while walking away. Felt sorry for her and these other really old people, remember this is FL, in the cong who claim they will live to see Armageddon.
So far, I have attended 4 funerals in the past 5 years of those who thought for sure would live long enough to see the end.
Sad.😔
DY
 +2 / -0
redpilltwice
redpilltwice 13 hours ago

I think many in my old cong were/are suffering from the delayed A. Poor people with bad health but afraid not to wait on jehovah. Should they know about these?:
"The year 1925 is a date definitely and clearly marked in Scriptures, even more clearly than that of 1914;…" Watchtower 1924 Jul 15 p.211

"Receiving the gift, the marching children clasped it to them, not a toy or plaything for idle pleasure, but the Lord's provided instrument for most effective work in the remaining months before Armageddon." Watchtower 1941 Sep 15 p.288

We all know there are many more, but why the f&*k didn't they show me GEMS like these during my bible study 20 years ago? They made it look as if 1914 and 1975 were understandable mistakes! The oldest J-dub (already deceased) in my past cong truly hoped to see Armageddon. He got to know the "truth" back in 1950. I now often wonder...he MUST have known at least one or some of these false -now hidden- Russell/Rutherford prophecies, but WHY O WHY O WHY did I only got to know them last year!!! If I will ask his children about it, it might bring my -so far- perfect fading in danger.


 +1 / -0
DesirousOfChange
DesirousOfChange 12 hours ago

very few behave as if the end is really near. ~ Doubtfully Yours
That is the key thing!
NO ONE is living as though the Big A is coming tomorrow. They are contributing to their 401(k) for retirement and taking on 30 year mortgages on their new homes. No one is out there selling all their assets so they can pioneer and warn everyone.
Down deep, they all know it's bullshit!
Doc

 +1 / -0
Tenacious
Tenacious 9 hours ago

Personally, I never had time to think about the "imminent end".
It's very smart to keep the friends busy enough to not even have time to think about "the end" that was supposed to have already arrived!
It wasn't until I heard about the elders having a secret book that sparked my curiosity however, it would be another 10 years before I actually acted on it.

 
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 9 hours ago

With the advent of time passing on, I'm sure there's many JWS thinking to themselves what's going on .
The main reason I left the JWS back in the early 80's was I didn't feal compelled to be subservient to bunch of lying corrupt men wanting power unto themselves and realization that they would intensively punish people who weren't loyal to those pretentious corrupt lies.
Too much Bullshit to much manipulation, too much exploitation and too much ignorance wrap up with a smile.

 
skin
skin 8 hours ago
Our CO told us in one of his talks on his last visit that the end is going to come in our life time, and those that don't believe this, are basically listen to Satan's lies, or as he put it "Expressions of Error". So we are forced to believe the end is so near. Luke 21:8. No doubts allowed no matter how many times JW.org have cried wolf in the past.

 

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New Feature on JW Library
by neat blue dog a day ago 18 Replies latest 11 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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neat blue dog
neat blue dog a day ago

There are a couple new tabs on the app, one of which is the 'meetings' tab. Can you guess what the other one is?


 +3 / -0
disposable hero of hypocrisy
disposable hero of hypocrisy a day ago
No way! Donations built in to the app? They are getting shameless, some may say brazen. I'm excommunicating them.
 +13 / -0
FayeDunaway
FayeDunaway a day ago
I was going to guess 'help the widows and orphans' but whoops, my bad. :wink:
 +15 / -0
pepperheart
pepperheart a day ago
When you are as short of money as the borg the truth starts coming out

 +3 / -0
steve2
steve2 a day ago

This app comes with absolutely no apostate-detector: JW org will accept donations from anyone...yes even the ones they call mentally diseased! I feel positively all goosebumply already.
 +3 / -0
Anders Andersen
Anders Andersen a day ago

How convenient. No need to go to the KH to hand over your gold. Now even the inactive and submarine dubs don't forget to donate.
@Faye,
The fact that you even think about helping the widows and orphans shows you must be an apostate!
 +1 / -0
zeb
zeb a day ago
Ina few months/years to come they will say... "We never said that; some brothers imagained it".
 +1 / -0
Da.Furious
Da.Furious a day ago
Just checked the app on my phone and it is there! I thought it was integrated to the app, but it takes you to the website. Unfortunately they dont Amex. So nothing from me (as if i contribute).

 +1 / -0
purrpurr
purrpurr a day ago
Surely this brazen money begging must be waking up some of the dubs?
 
freddo
freddo a day ago

Wifibandit posted up a letter about this which will be read to all congregations over the next few days ...
We love you and your "helpers" Wifi!  (But the GB and their helpers - not so much."
 +2 / -0

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New Feature on JW Library
by neat blue dog a day ago 18 Replies latest 11 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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sparky1
sparky1 a day ago


 +1 / -0
ttdtt
ttdtt 21 hours ago
You know - I HATE the org - but all organizations who need member support make it easy for people to contribute.
A link to the website on the app is not in the top 100 of issues I have with them.
 +1 / -0
neat blue dog
neat blue dog 18 hours ago
I know, taking contributions is totally legitimate. That being said, it's one puzzle piece in an overall trend, from monthly broadcasts to a children's cartoon and tie-in printable activity, to countless letters read at the hall, to the website and app. This past year even The Watchtower and Awake! have started printing a note about contributing in the opening page.
 +1 / -0
Doubtfully Yours
Doubtfully Yours 17 hours ago

Like the great George Carlin often said, "GOD NEEDS MONEY!!!"
DY
 +2 / -0
megabyte_vijay
megabyte_vijay 16 hours ago

Now I understood why this month society encouraging all bible students (Including new return visit) to download JW Library app in their mobiles...
It is really really unfair. How this app useful to a new person I didn't understand so far..Now it is clear..

 +2 / -0
Jehalapeno
Jehalapeno 16 hours ago

Why is this surprising?
It's not out of character for the organization. Everyone knows they run on donations.
(Don't mind me...just using same logic that others used about not being surprised at the homophobic cartoon.)
 +3 / -0
NeverKnew
NeverKnew 12 hours ago

A JW posted a meme on Facebook yesterday. It welcomed people to visit their local KH
at the bottom... "No Donations Required"
hmph
 
TheWonderofYou
TheWonderofYou 12 hours ago

Thats for the free public speech on sunday, while media production& library as well as online content keeping up to date for educational reasons is an expensive service.
Donations can be made privately thats easier online at home.
While in the meetings nobody is disturbed by thoughts about empty purses of widows
No cash mashines soon in the meeting and assembling halls and more silent last wills anonymously,  may it come!
 
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 11 hours ago

If people want to donate to any group they can.
But the real question would be: What would happen to a person who vocalised their objection to this constant request for donations? How would they be viewed or treated??
What if they simply chatted openly to others about their view on it?
Hmmm...
 +1 / -0

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Psalm 23
by Truthexplorer a day ago 8 Replies latest 17 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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Truthexplorer
Truthexplorer a day ago


 +2 / -0
TheLiberator
TheLiberator a day ago
Never appreciated this Psalm as much as I do now. Very personal.
 
oppostate
oppostate a day ago

Last thought in Psalm 23: "Surely, goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever," sounds like maybe heavenly hopes after some peaceful "all days" of ones life.
So...
I've got a question. How does "You can live forever on paradise earth" jive with Hebrews 9:27?

If Rutherford declared that "millions now living will never die" and are now pretty much all dead, then isn't Hebrews 9:7 more likely than the misguided hopes in JW doctrine to never die and live through Armageddon?

 
TheLiberator
TheLiberator a day ago

The context of Hebrews reads:
Hebrews: 9. 24. For Christ hasn't entered into holy places made with hands, which are representations of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25. nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest enters into the holy place year by year with blood not his own, 26. or else he must have suffered often since the foundation of the world. But now once at the end of the ages, he has been revealed to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27. Inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once, and after this, judgment,
So Paul was simply saying that Christ died once for all time since "it is appointed for men to die once."
 
oppostate
oppostate a day ago

"Inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once, and after this, judgment,"
Exactly. Jesus, a man, died, like all men die and after death then they are judged.
As in psalm 23, all the days of one's life, once they end, a person has finished his life-course but then one may dwell in the house of the Lord, in heaven, for ever.
Is there any other way to read that? Explain.
 
baker
baker a day ago

but, I heard we had a 2nd chance with up to 1000 years to study...
 
TheLiberator
TheLiberator a day ago
The Psalmist simply stated in Psalm: 23:6 "and I will dwell in Yahweh's house forever."
It was certainly his desire and his longing. But is he speaking of heaven?
This was a fascinating discovery for me personally after leaving the Watchtower and it was something I always thought about even before I left. It was this: Nowhere does the old testament teach that anyone is going to heaven. Every scripture speaks of God restoring the earth. Then Jesus appeared. When did Jesus start telling people that they would not die and go off to heaven? Never.
The Jews never believed that. If Jesus had introduced this thought, this would have been a huge upheaval. Rather, he said the "meek shall inherit the earth". He told the evildoer that he would be with him in paradise. Even Paul said concerning children: "Ephesians: 6. 3. "that it may be well with you, and you may live long on the earth."
There never was a two tier system. Paul never said anyone was going to heaven. But of course he did!! That's what I thought. Read his words again with no preconceived ideas. Not once.
I encourage people to do research into this. I could not possibly explain all of it in this forum. But it certainly is fascinating. My personal conclusion is simply that no man will go to heaven. He will be judged when he is resurrected on earth. I believe God meant what he said:Psalm: 115. 16. "The heavens are the heavens of Yahweh; but the earth has he given to the children of men."

 
jhine
jhine a day ago

Rev 21 :1-5 talks about a new heaven and a new earth . " And there was no longer any sea " end of verse l .The word sea is sometimes seen as being the heavens .
" I saw the Holy City , Jerusalem coming down out of Heaven from God ......................Now the dwelling of God is with men and he will live with them " vs 2-3 .
So these verses could be saying that heaven and earth will be made new as one place and men and God will all be together .
Jan
 
menrov
menrov 17 hours ago
In my view only the apostles will be on thrones (24 in total) . Other 12 for patriarchs. All others ? Somewhere but not on thrones. Can be heaven can be elsewhere. Just my view.
 

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The silent crises. Why people are leaving the Mormon church.
by joe134cd a day ago 4 Replies latest 14 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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joe134cd
joe134cd a day ago

I was just watching this on you tube
https://youtu.be/ZaOQRb6R6gI
and although talking about the Mormon church I think in principle it well describes theJWs. I think one of the solutions he gives to why people are leaving (although sadly is unlikely to be implement by the GB)is "trying to build a more open Social community where it ok if you don't believe. A place where you can talk openly about your doubts and questions. Admit the actual problems that exist in the history".
Very thought provoking video.
 +1 / -0
FayeDunaway
FayeDunaway a day ago
Marked
 
konceptual99
konceptual99 18 hours ago

You could just as easily substitute JW for Mormon and it would resonate in exactly the same way.
One of the links is to this blog:
http://johnpavlovitz.com/2014/08/15/church-heres-why-people-are-leaving-you-part-1/
Interestingly it talks about the glitzy church, something which JWs have not really followed but the move to more multi-media and streamed content does reflect a slicker and more emotive method of capturing attention.
Item 5 - Your love does not look like love is a superb observation.
 
Doubtfully Yours
Doubtfully Yours 17 hours ago

I also checked out other videos on leaving the Mormons and, WOW, so many similarities to leaving the JWs!
Indoctrination is a mind poison.
DY
 +1 / -0
Heaven
Heaven 14 hours ago
Why does anyone leave their religion? Because lies veiled as 'truth' and hatred veiled as love don't work.

 

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JW Publication Reviews
by lyfe 19 hours ago 2 Replies latest 10 hours ago   watchtower bible
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lyfe
lyfe 19 hours ago

Hi All,
I'm looking for a bit of help. I'm in the process of reviewing the following three JW publications:
* The Watchtower No2. 2016 Why did Jesus Suffer and Die (this is the publication I am unable to find much information online)
* Was Life Created 2010 copy
* Awake No2. 2016 Is the Bible Just a Good Book?
I'm looking for critical detailed reviews with supporting evidence for or against.
I would appreciate any information you can share?
Thank you in Advance fo any feedback.
 
freddo
freddo 13 hours ago

Welcome to the forum lyfe.
Perhaps you could be more specific?
 
Doug Mason
Doug Mason 10 hours ago

lyfe,
(1) Why Did Jesus Suffer and Die? The idea of a substitutionary death comes from the fertile imagination of Paul (the NT's earliest writer). The writers of John's Gospel (written about 60 years after Jesus' death and about 30 years after Paul's death) evolved the Jesus story, saying that one only needed to believe in Jesus, with no requirement for any death. There was any number of followers of Jesus, some of whoim agreed with Paul's imaginings and opinions, and many others who did not agree. The only reason that the Pauline Church triumphed was that it was appointed as the official State religion by Constantine (no doubt urged by his mother Helena - see her Wikipedia entry).
(2) Was life created? Is God alive? Who created his life?
(3) The Bible (and there is any number of versions) that the Watchtower uses was formed by the Trinitarian Church of the 4th century. The Bible is not inspired. A person might believe (hope) that individual documents were inspired (scholars prefer the term inscripturation, given the innumerable corruptions) but the decsion on which writings to include took centuries, and even today there is no unanimous agreement. So ask why the WTS accepts Christendom's Bible(s) and also ask why Christianity uses the Jews' sacred writings. Of course one should argue that the NT is also an assemblage of Jewish documents, although Luke/Acts and the Pastoral Epistles might not be Jewish; I am not certain regarding the document that was written last - 2 Peter, which was written about 125 CE. (Paul did not write Colossians, Ephesians, 1 and 2 Timothy, Titus, or Hebrews).
------------


The invisible features that underlie Pauline Christianity consist in an elaborate doctrinal construct developed by Paul’s fertile mind on the subject of the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Compared to his vision, the theology of the Synoptic Gospels and of the Acts of the Apostles appears primitive, but Paul finds his match in John’s superb mystical portrait of the superhuman Christ.
Deep familiarity with Judaism and at least a superficial acquaintance with classical culture, linked to a powerful spiritual imagination, enabled Paul to re-use the Jewish religious concepts … and create out of these elements an impressive doctrinal synthesis in which Christ was depicted as the final Saviour. (Christian Beginnings, page 99, by Geza Vermes)
-----------

Doug

 

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78 to go and hopefully something good comes of it. Please do your part and sign up. Thanks
by Tenacious 15 hours ago 13 Replies latest 4 hours ago   watchtower child-abuse
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Tenacious
Tenacious 15 hours ago

Only 78 signatures are needed in order to send the request to the IRS that they revoke or at the very least investigate the Borg. Come'on guys, support it.

Click Here to Support and Sign Up!
 
TheLiberator
TheLiberator 15 hours ago
Just signed it.
 
OneEyedJoe
OneEyedJoe 15 hours ago

Signed it.
It would probably be beneficial if the statement also included a mention of the fact that the WTS actively encourages its membership not to do charitable works.
 
Xanthippe
Xanthippe 14 hours ago
I signed it.
 
lurkernomore
lurkernomore 14 hours ago
Just signed it.
 
problemaddict 2
problemaddict 2 13 hours ago
I don't think investigating because of child abuse is going to be the thing here. It has to be because of shunning. Shunning envokes thoughts of removal of freedom.

 
arwen
arwen 13 hours ago
Just signed!!
 
punkofnice
punkofnice 13 hours ago
Signed. Up yours watctower
 +1 / -0
Sail Away
Sail Away 12 hours ago
Just signed
 
PaintedToeNail
PaintedToeNail 12 hours ago

signed
 

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78 to go and hopefully something good comes of it. Please do your part and sign up. Thanks
by Tenacious 15 hours ago 13 Replies latest 4 hours ago   watchtower child-abuse
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talesin
talesin 11 hours ago

Signed and bumping.
Oh, the horror! I used "it's" instead of "its", and there's no "Edit" button ....
The Jehovah's Witness cult is a religious front for a corporation. Historically, it's dealings have focussed on publishing and real estate, with more recent investments in hedge funds. They encourage their members to rely on government support such as food stamps and welfare, so that they can devote more time to 'slaving for Jehovah'. Here is one scam the IRS needs to investigate: when disaster strikes, the Jehovah's Witness corporation sends 'volunteers' to help members rebuild their homes. Of course, the member is expected to file claims with insurance and/or Government disaster relief, and turn any monies received over to their pastor as donations. Also, look into the construction of their Kingdom Halls. They loan the money to the local parish, whose congregates pay interest on said loan. Once the loan is paid off, the congregation 'donates' the building to the Jehovah's Witness corporation. That sounds very sketchy to me. How about you? That is not to mention the destruction of families and hiding of pedophiles. You are the IRS, follow the money! You took down Al Capone, you can destroy this heinous cult. Lead the way, America, and perhaps the rest of the Western World will follow.

 +1 / -0
Tenacious
Tenacious 9 hours ago

Thanks guys!
Let's keep it going!

 +1 / -0
smiddy
smiddy 8 hours ago
I have just signed it
 
Clearview
Clearview 4 hours ago
Signed.
 

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Convention coming to a city near YOU...
by Sugar Shane 9 hours ago 4 Replies latest 2 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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Sugar Shane
Sugar Shane 9 hours ago

...and it's our duty to warn non-JWs, or half awake JWs about these events, as they start appearing in newspapers throughout the US, and abroad.
Here's one. It almost comes out as a promotional ad for the JW convention. The 'current events' editing staff of this paper likely has no idea that it's a high-control cult they're writing about. Totally clueless.
http://www.gazettes.com/entertainment/jehovah-s-witness-annual-convention-promotes-loyalty/article_d00965a6-1d1f-11e6-86b8-ef61aa9f3fae.html
So far, no comments are under this article.
 +1 / -0
millie210
millie210 7 hours ago

And so it begins,,,
is this the first one of the year?
I couldnt help but notice it costs $10 to park. I wonder who gets that money?
Thanks for posting this Sugar Shane!
 +1 / -0
littlerockguy
littlerockguy 6 hours ago

LOL at the article being in the Entertainment section
 +1 / -0
JWdaughter
JWdaughter 4 hours ago
2 feature length films? THIRTY FIVE video segments??? They are worried about folks like us going rogue:)
 
smiddy
smiddy 2 hours ago

Emily Thornton is a staff writer covering higher education ?
hasn`t she twigged that Jehovah`s Witnesses are against higher education ?
That the Loyalty theme of the Regional Convention is all about being loyal to the Governing Body members even if they don`t understand the reasons why they should be loyal ?
Instead of just parroting what the Watchtower media gives to journalists Emily Thornton should do her own investigation into this religion by getting first hand experiences from people who have left this cult ,otherwise she loses all credibility of being a serious journalist worth her salt.
I have sent Emily Thornton an e-mail
smiddy
 

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Jehovah Witness vs Jehovah's Witness
by Simon 7 hours ago 18 Replies latest 31 minutes ago   watchtower beliefs
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Simon
Simon 7 hours ago

Being brought up as a Jehovah's Witness means you are so used to the term that you rarely stop to think about it.
One thing I've noticed is that people unfamiliar with the religion will say "Jehovah Witness" (no 's) instead which I always found a bit grating.
But watching the US election, something struck me. People are often referred to as "Trump Supporters", not "Trump's Supporters" and so on. Thinking about other things, people would say they were "United Fan's", not "United's Fans" and so on.
It seems weird that a group would refer to themselves as though it was someone else talking about them (in the 3rd person, if I have that right).
What do you think? Does "Jehovah Witness" grate on you too or does it make more sense?
 +5 / -0
Wild_Thing
Wild_Thing 7 hours ago

"Jehovah Witness" has always grated on me, even to this day! It doesn't even make any sense without the apostrophe and s. What is even worse is when I hear someone say that so-and-so is "a Jehovah". A what? Please! Your ignorance is showing. You might want to tuck that shit back in.
I have to admit that when I am in certain company who are discussing JWs and I do not want them to know that I was ever even associated with them, I will purposely say "Jehovah Witness" just to prove how far removed I am from them!
 +5 / -0
Robo Bobo
Robo Bobo 7 hours ago
It's grammatically awkward in English. You would never say "he is a Simon's friend."
 +3 / -0
dubstepped
dubstepped 6 hours ago
I always said that I was one of Jehovah's Witnesses. Those other ways never made sense to me. Now they all turn my stomach.
 +5 / -0
Simon
Simon 6 hours ago

But no one would say, "I'm a Trump's supporter". They say "I am a Trump supporter". (forget for this analogy that they really probably just dribble and throw feces at the wall).
I forget the name of the comedian in the UK but I remember the line "someone came to my door and said they were a Jehovah Witness, I said I didn't even know there'd been an accident".
Everyone I know who wasn't one always said "Jehovah Witness".
 +2 / -0
TheLiberator
TheLiberator 6 hours ago
My old presiding overseer said that we NEED to say, "I am one of Jehovah's witnesses." Whatever.
 
prologos
prologos 6 hours ago
I am one of Trump's supporters or I am one of the many Trump supporters?
 
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 5 hours ago

Its a big thing for the JWS as they self proclaim that they are the only ones who truly preaching the correct version of the Gospel,  true witnesses and serving Jehovah.  
In reality they are proclaiming witnesses and subservient toward the Watchtower Publishing house.
Ironically The Watchtower has never been loyal and true to Jehovah according to scriptures in the bible. 
 
stephanie61092
stephanie61092 5 hours ago

Ugh yes that (Jehovah witness) would really grind my gears! Esp when it was coming from a long time JW!! I always felt a bit uncomfortable with Jehovah's Witness too, I ended up telling others that I was "one of Jehovah's Witnesses." A bit more to say but ultimately made more sense to me grammatically.
 
Hisclarkness
Hisclarkness 5 hours ago

Always bugged me too. You are one of Jehovah's Witnesses or you are a witness of Jehovah.
It seems to be one of those weird grammatical exceptions; I dunno. It doesn't sound awkward to say you are a Trump supporter. What about saying you are a Trump witness for tomorrow's case? But saying you are a Jehovah Witness just sounds weird.
 +1 / -0

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Jehovah Witness vs Jehovah's Witness
by Simon 7 hours ago 18 Replies latest 36 minutes ago   watchtower beliefs
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Island Man
Island Man 4 hours ago

I think "Trump supporters" and "Trump's supporters" are actually two different things, linguistically speaking. The first case involves using the name Trump as an "object adjective". However in the latter case Trump is being used as a "possessive adjective". There's a clear difference between the two, albeit a somewhat subtle.
The term "Jehovah's Witnesses" tells you who they are witnesses for. But the term "Jehovah Witness" means what exactly? Unlike the Trump example, "Jehovah" is not being used as "an objective adjective" in this case because JWs don't actually witness Jehovah - Jehovah is not the object of the action of Witnessing in the way that Trump is the object of the action of supporting. The object of the witnessing is the message they're preaching. Jehovah is the person about whom they witness - not what they witness. It's very subtle, but there's a difference.

 +2 / -0
Island Man
Island Man 4 hours ago
Linguistically speaking the term "Jehovah's Witnesses" is a plural name used only for referring to the religion as a whole. It is not proper English to say "I am a Jehovah's Witness". The correct way is to say: "I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses"

 +2 / -0
Wild_Thing
Wild_Thing 4 hours ago

prologos

I am one of Trump's supporters or I am one of the many Trump supporters?
I don't know ... either way sounds wrong. 
 
Island Man
Island Man 4 hours ago
Think too of how the term witness is used in the court. They don't say so-and-so is a prosecution witness. They say so-and-so is a witness for the prosecution because the prosecution is not the object of the act of witnessing in the same way that Trump is the object of people's support.

 
Island Man
Island Man 4 hours ago
"I am a trump supporter" is correct because trump is the object of the support. But saying "I am a Jehovah witness" is incorrect because Jehovah is not the object of the witnessing - JWs don't witness Jehovah.

 
Anders Andersen
Anders Andersen 4 hours ago

Yeah I have the same.
Long time ago I read someplace that the construct 'I am one of JW' also serves to reaffirm the JW identity every time they say it.
Compare these:
1.I am a Catholic
2.I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses
1) implies 'I am a Catholic individual'. I am unique. Being catholic is only a part of my whole identity.
2) implies no individual identity. I am part of a group of identical beings. I am a JW, and nothing but a JW. That is my whole identity.
------------------
In Dutch the official spelling for one of Bible God's supposed names is Jehova (without the last h). That means that most journalists will write Jehova's Witnesses or Jehova Witnesses. And to me that always reaffirmed they were biased against (formerly) us, as they even failed to write the religion's name properly. Yeah, relidiculous, I know...
 
smiddy
smiddy 2 hours ago

Was I a Jehovah Witness ?
or
was I a Jehovah`s Witness
or
Was I a Witness for Jehovah ?
or
Was I one of Jehovah`s Witnesses.
I think I was a dickhead for being all of the above.
smiddy
 +3 / -0
Doug Mason
Doug Mason 2 hours ago

The context of Isa 43:12 is talking about the situation of the Judaeans during the neo-Babylonian Captivity (part of deutero-Isaiah).
In that context YHWH is telling the people that even though they had witnessed that YHWH is God, yet they cotinued to rebel. The context finishes up with YHWH saying therefore he would reject them. (Isa 43:22-28)

They had witnessed YHWH, they had seen his punishments, but they continued in their evil ways. Of course this passage was written by scribes who wanted the people to only worship YHWH. They had been fighting a losing battle until tne time of the Babylonians. This was the opportunity taken by the YHWH-only party and the Judah that came out of captivity was quite unlike the polytheistic Judah that went into captivity. Today, we read the propaganda put out by the YHWH-only party. The rest of the nation was illiterate.

Another problem inherited from Rutherford.
Of course, he only applied the term to the 144,000 spirit-anointed. The term was not extended to the rest until well after Rutherford's death.
Doug

 
smiddy
smiddy 36 minutes ago

At no time after the publication or oral announcement of Isa.43:12 did any tribe of the Jews , view it as an endorsement/ command to identify themselves as Jehovah`s Witnesses or Witnesses of Jehovah ?
No they did not .
When Jesus was on earth did he ever chastise the Jewish religion or people for not identifying themselves as Jehovah`s Witnesses ? No he did not.
In fact the Christian Greek Scriptures plainly state that followers of Jesus Christ were by Divine Providence to be called Christians , not Jehovah`s Witnesses.Acts 11:26 " it was in Antioch that the disciples were by Divine Providence called Christians " not Jehovah`s Witnesses.
smiddy
 +1 / -0

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Simon
17
Jehovah Witness vs Jehovah's Witness
by Simon in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 7 hours ago
being brought up as a jehovah's witness means you are so used to the term that you rarely stop to think about it.. one thing i've noticed is that people unfamiliar with the religion will say "jehovah witness" (no 's) instead which i always found a bit grating.. but watching the us election, something struck me.

people are often referred to as "trump supporters", not "trump's supporters" and so on.

thinking about other things, people would say they were "united fan's", not "united's fans" and so on.. it seems weird that a group would refer to themselves as though it was someone else talking about them (in the 3rd person, if i have that right).. what do you think?

Anders Andersen
smiddy
Doug Mason
2 hours ago
Sugar Shane
4
Convention coming to a city near YOU...
by Sugar Shane in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 9 hours ago
...and it's our duty to warn non-jws, or half awake jws about these events, as they start appearing in newspapers throughout the us, and abroad.

it almost comes out as a promotional ad for the jw convention.

the 'current events' editing staff of this paper likely has no idea what their promoting.

littlerockguy
JWdaughter
smiddy
2 hours ago
Tenacious
13
78 to go and hopefully something good comes of it. Please do your part and sign up. Thanks
by Tenacious in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Child Abuse Issues
 16 hours ago
only 78 signatures are needed in order to send the request to the irs that they revoke or at the very least investigate the borg.

come'on guys, support it.. click here to support and sign up!.

Tenacious
smiddy
Clearview
4 hours ago
lyfe
2
JW Publication Reviews
by lyfe in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 20 hours ago
hi all,i'm looking for a bit of help.

i'm in the process of reviewing the following three jw publications:* the watchtower no2.

2016 why did jesus suffer and die (this is the publication i am unable to find much information online)* was life created 2010 copy* awake no2.

freddo
Doug Mason
11 hours ago
joe134cd
4
The silent crises. Why people are leaving the Mormon church.
by joe134cd in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 a day ago
i was just watching this on you tube.

https://youtu.be/zaoqrb6r6gi.

and although talking about the mormon church i think in principle it well describes thejws.

konceptual99
Doubtfully Yours
Heaven
14 hours ago
Truthexplorer
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Psalm 23
by Truthexplorer in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 a day ago
.

TheLiberator
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menrov
17 hours ago
neat blue dog
18
New Feature on JW Library
by neat blue dog in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 a day ago
there are a couple new tabs on the app, one of which is the 'meetings' tab.

can you guess what the other one is?.

.

NeverKnew
TheWonderofYou
stuckinarut2
12 hours ago
dogon
15
Do JWs ever doubt that the end is really coming?
by dogon in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 a day ago
as a former dubber i had many occasions to doubt that the end was coming.

i was told it was ok to doubt but not to think about it too much and wait on jehovah.

that bull shit lasted until they changed the meaning of generation in 95 and that was the end of that bull shit for me.

Tenacious
Finkelstein
skin
8 hours ago
wifibandit
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May 16, 2016 TO ALL CONGREGATIONS IN BRITAIN Re: Donations to the Worldwide Work Using jw.org
by wifibandit in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 2 days ago
may 16, 2016 to all congregations in britain re: donations to the worldwide work using jw.org.

adding it to the list.... may 2015 broadcast.

jehovah will care for our needs.

blondie
WTWizard
menrov
17 hours ago
AFreeBeliever
7
Prince: frustration and relief
by AFreeBeliever in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 2 days ago
i haven't posted in a long time, but all this news re: prince has brought up alot of "stuff" for me.

having been a born-in 3rd generation until being disfellowshipped, losing all of my family and friends i had since birth in one big go, i find myself going between frustration, and honestly some feelings of resentment, and ...relief...regarding prince (who, by the way, i am not disparaging personally, just, as most of us know, he would have been held up as the perfect example of what not to be by the watchtower organization and the double-standard/hypocrisy is rather stunning).

resentment/frustration, due to my personal experiences and those of many i knew.

JWdaughter
cha ching
Vidiot
17 hours ago
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