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Maybe I'm Just Ignorant About the New "Anti-Gay" Video
by turtleturtle 2 days ago 146 Replies latest 8 hours ago   jw friends
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turtleturtle
turtleturtle 2 days ago

Homophobia (M-W.com):

1.: irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals
Can someone tell me, specifically, was homophobic about the new "Anti-gay" WT video. Particularly, what showed an "irrational fear", "aversion", or "discrimination"?
I'm definitely not saying I agree with the video. It was done in horrible taste. But many throw these terms around a lot.

 +7 / -0
neat blue dog
neat blue dog 2 days ago
Yes,'homophobia' is overused as a catch-all slur in and of itself often. As for the video: Irrational fear? Not quite. Aversion? Not quite. Discrimination? It could be argued that since the video says gays won't be allowed in paradise, then paradise isn't an equal opportunity landlord 😜
 +7 / -1
xjwsrock
xjwsrock 2 days ago

Comparing homosexuality to carrying a duffle bag seems to be intentional insensitivity and a perpetuating of ignorance. Like someone can just drop homosexual leanings or desires like a dropping a piece of carry-on luggage.
Whether this can be considered discriminatory is prob in the eye of the beholder. A case could certainly be made for it.
 +7 / -0
steve2
steve2 a day ago

I am ambivalent over whether the video meets criteria for homophobia. I have read and participated in long exchanges in earlier threads on this topic and I probably lean more to now thinking it is a more subtle - and perhaps insidious - form of homophobia.
As a propaganda tool directed at young children, it very cleverly perpetuates the notion that being gay or lesbian is a choice and can be changed. "Hey, you want to get on this plane? Drop the baggage - others have done it!" This would be very funny were it not a damaging message. 
And the "baggage" metaphor flies in the face of clinical research on human sexuality. It thus perpetuates the false notion that who you are attracted to is a choice. So, if a young JW child finds he or she has same-sex feelings, they will immediately feel there must be something bad about their "choice" and begin a vain lifelong struggle against themselves. Sure, if you act on who you are attracted to that is a choice. But the attraction itself is not.
Yes the video is framed with cheery antiseptically cautious language - but the intent is the same. It does not recognize gay or lesbian relationships and in particular marriage. And that is consistent with the JWs literal take on the Bible.
 +13 / -0
Simon
Simon a day ago

There is no way on earth that anyone is going to make a court case over this. It's hardly discriminatory and winning would involve removing everyone else's right to religious belief and government interjection into biblical interpretation.
Get real, forget it.
They believe that god has promised a paradise and won't let certain people in. Boo hoo. Not being welcomed into an imaginary land is as discriminatory as not being included as a character in Alice in Wonderland. No one is going there anyway, it's make believe.
Lots of other people aren't invited too, not just gay people. There are more than gay people lumped together in the bible verse they base it on.
As for the choice vs non-choice - they would argue that it's not about being gay, it's about being immoral and everyone has (should have) a choice of whether they are sexually active so based on the bible view, it's no different to non-gay people having sex outside of marriage. Of course the fact remains that they don't allow gay people to marry - based on scriptures like that. So round and round the circular reasoning goes.
But damn, if anyone is really offended then they should take legal action to ensure that they are invited to the imaginary land they don't believe in.
 +16 / -6
Lieu
Lieu a day ago

It's in poor taste.
Also, it does promote fear in young people living with same sex couples.
*Keep in mind the prevailing theme of fear in JWism.*
The young girl talking with her counterpart is going to be fearful of same sex relationships and those in them. Why? Because she's being taught that it displease God so much they'll not be allowed in paradise, ergo it's wicked because only the wicked don't make it.
Her counterpart must now go home terrified that the ones she loves are going to die or be punished by God. Not only that but she has been made responsible for delivering the bad news.
Emotional child abuse. It also shows the lack of love and empathy for the position her counterpart is in.
 +5 / -2
Doubtfully Yours
Doubtfully Yours a day ago

I have watched it a few times and cannot understand what is the big deal. How else, in a more tactful, loving way can JW parents communicate to their small kids their beliefs?
It was not hateful or accusatory. Nope! As many gripes as I have with the WTBTS, this stance would win in a court of law.
We need to focus outrage some place else.
DY
 +5 / -5
Jehalapeno
Jehalapeno a day ago

Homophobia has become a catch-all term for the LGBTQ community equivalent of racism.


It would be hard for someone to argue that the above statements were not racist statements.
The same can be said for the video. It is sugar coated homophobia.
Anyone saying the video wasn't homophobia either hasn't thought about it much, hasn't put themselves in the shoes of those that are homosexuals, or they still hold a personal prejudice themselves against the LGBTQ community.
Just because it is someone's religious right to believe something ignorant and prejudicial does not give them freedom from criticism.
 +9 / -0
littlerockguy
littlerockguy a day ago

I don't know if it is "homophobic" but it certainly dehumanizes a demographic and promotes bigotry and perpetuates a lie that gays have a choice.
LRG
 +4 / -0
Simon
Simon a day ago

The over-extended outrage and mislabelling of it as hate speech will cause any curious 3rd party without a hat in the ring to think that many exJWs are simply trying to invent fault to see in the WTS and are completely unreasonable ... and they'd probably be right.
Some people seem to be desperately looking to be outraged. For instance, where does it label anyone as "wicked" as claimed? It just doesn't.
Just who are these mythical children of same-sex couples that are watching WTS videos? Are we seriously to believe that it is THE most frightening manifestation of religious opinion that they will ever come across? Maybe they thought "mommy and mommy" (or "daddy and daddy") were loved and accepted by all ... before they saw that TERRIBLE video?! (OMG, shock horror, waves hands in dramatic fashion and falls to knees for added effect).
It's ridiculous to think that the sky is falling because of the tamest religious presentation against homosexuality that's probably possible to imagine.
Here's a challenge: describe the bibles condemnation of homosexuality in a clear but less "homophobic" way than the WTS video ... then tell us all again how evil they are.
 +7 / -3

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Maybe I'm Just Ignorant About the New "Anti-Gay" Video
by turtleturtle 2 days ago 146 Replies latest 8 hours ago   jw friends
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OnTheWayOut
OnTheWayOut a day ago

Virtually all religions indoctrinate their children with such techniques, but they rarely put it in cartoon form.
This is a conservative Christian religion that teaches hating those that live very contrary to their rules. Nothing new.
I hate the video, it may be viewed as hate, maybe even by nations or courts. But it's just a cartoon of what most of these groups do with the kids to combat the enlightened attitude that is gaining momentum in the world.
 +1 / -0
Lieu
Lieu a day ago

Yeah, Russell was a bit Eurocentric and lacked quite heavily on Biblical knowledge.
Everyone knows the land of Canaan was in the Middle East, not Africa. Is Israel in Africa? No. And 2 of Israelite tribes were part Egyptian (Africans); the 2 sons of Joseph. [No Arabs in Africa back then]
Whenever Israelites including Abraham, Mary & Joseph, et al needed to hide from crazies, they always fled to Africa. That's pretty much where the always went.
But Russell was a man of his times and held beliefs consistent with his baptist/protestat past and general US American rascist thought. Not to mention it was an erroneous teaching of the RCC for centuries.
I chalk that up to RCC envy. No one saught refuge in Europe, not ever. Under persecution, Christians saught refuge in Egypt and Turkey.
 
freemindfade
freemindfade a day ago

The video teaches discrimination.
If mom and dad owned a business and expressed openly the belief that someone couldn't get into the company based on their sexual orientation it would be sex based discrimination and considered harassment
No this scenario is not exactly the same, its a religion, and they are saying its the big J who discriminates and will effectively kill the same sex couple at Armageddon. It promotes to children the idea that homosexuality is deviant choice made by someone who will be killed by god. The reasoning is very clear.
Same sex couple will not make it to the panda petting zoo, what is Sophia doing to do? Tell their child about the panda petting zoo. She is not going to bring it up in order to mind her own business and live and let live.
This subject presented in a work environment from a HR perspective would be pretty clearly discrimination.
yes the bible is homophobic, that's not new, but this video is interesting because it has made very public Watchtower's (practically a political) stance on same sex marriage. In the past yes they may condemn homosexuality, but at a time when same sex unions are center stage of politics and media they have taken a side addressing not homosexuality, but the union. I don't think its too much to be impressed that people like George Tekai are talking about it, and I don't think its too much to think that its portrayal of childhood indoctrination to discriminate is disgusting. But too each their own.
 +6 / -1
Simon
Simon a day ago

Can you tell us what discrimination is being taught? Like an actual "don't serve them pizza or sell them a cake" kind of real thing, not "I'm not going to send happy thoughts your way" mumbo jumbo.
Also, when the bible says "the meek will inherit the earth" does that mean that any non-meek people are also being discriminated against? Should we start a petition or a march or something?
Also, I'm not one of the 12 tribes of Israel so think I missed out on some promises. Who should I contact to complain?
 +4 / -3
freemindfade
freemindfade a day ago

Can you tell us what discrimination is being taught
I think the airport illustration pretty much hammered that one home for most people. Homosexuality is pin pointed and the value of the lives of a homosexual are portrayed as less (that is unless they leave their bags behind).
If this were the time of racial segregation in america, I would rather be accused of being "overly outraged" by anything promoting racial discrimination then later being accused of defending any vestige of it as "not that bad" regardless of the forum, the reason, or the prevalence.
Bible condones slavery too, probably more than it condemns homosexuality. If Watchtower makes a cartoon about slavery should we not be "over outraged" because everyone knows that's in the bible?

 +6 / -0
Simon
Simon a day ago

You don't seem to understand what discrimination actually is. I'm talking about something real, not what analogy they used to explain their bible belief. You know they are not really talking about preventing gay people getting on planes ... right?
For example, someone can believe that Asian people tend to drive slow but that is not discriminating against them. If they refused to give any Asians work in their taxi company just on the basis of being Asian then they would be discriminating. Can you see how it works?
You like using "If" but that is simply trying to switch things to something that can be argued.
I'm asking you to explain what discriminatory action they are promoting. How is Sophie going to discriminate against someone? What is she taught that she has to do or not do based on her friends parents sexuality?
It should be very easy, given how blatantly homophobic and promoting of discrimination you think it is.
 +5 / -1
Lieu
Lieu a day ago

As a retired LEO Commander, the video passes the test for discrimination. A title 6/7 fed case. That's the only and last time I'm going to say it.
Believe what you want.
Freedom of religion means you don't get to impose yours on other people. Period.
 +5 / -1
freemindfade
freemindfade a day ago

dis·crim·i·na·tiondəˌskriməˈnāSH(ə)n/noun1.the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex.
When the cartoon begins Sophia puts out what her teacher has explained to her about the same sex couple (not discrimination) upon hearing this Mom makes the case to change that perception.

“Carrie drew two mommies,” “She told me they’re married to each other. My teacher says that all that matters is that people love each other and that they’re happy"
“Hmm. Well, people have their own ideas about what is right and wrong,”. “But what matters is how Jehovah feels. (Your teacher is wrong).
Then comparing gay people to contraband luggage is pretty low. If you don't think that's too much, that's fine Simon, you are free to feel that way. Yes the video uses metaphors over overt language but the message is clear. metaphor or not.

 +4 / -2
Simon
Simon a day ago

Freedom of religion means you don't get to impose yours on other people. Period.
I agree, but again, where has this happened? Where have they imposed their religious will on someone else? That would definitely be discrimination, did I miss the part of the video instructing them to do this?
Yes the video uses metaphors over overt language but the message is clear. metaphor or not.
But you said it was clearly teaching discrimination - can't you explain what form of discrimination it's teaching?
You posted the definition:
the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people
What treatment, in the video, did they promote?
 +3 / -2
freemindfade
freemindfade a day ago
1.Jehovah set the rules and not he doesn't like homos
2.That's why we preach our message because people can change
3.What's Sophia gonna do, preach the message, oh hallelujah!!
Not that complicated, its is after all a cartoon...
She is going back to what I assume is a public school, a place i would like to be a "religious agenda free zone". ..
Not for JWS though.
 +3 / -3

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Maybe I'm Just Ignorant About the New "Anti-Gay" Video
by turtleturtle 2 days ago 146 Replies latest 8 hours ago   jw friends
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Lieu
Lieu a day ago

I'm trained to see it, Simon. It doesn't get past me.
It's imposed when the child tells her counterpart. What part of that are you not getting fella??????
Unlike Elders, I'm actually certified and trained in these matters.
 +5 / -4
freemindfade
freemindfade a day ago
The moment she opens her mouth to preach to her school mate, the discrimination of the parent is passed on.
 +6 / -3
Lieu
Lieu a day ago

Lord Jesus thank you freemindfade...
 +6 / -3
freemindfade
freemindfade a day ago
Lol
 +2 / -1
Simon
Simon a day ago

The moment she opens her mouth to preach to her school mate, the discrimination of the parent is passed on.
But there was nothing in the video itself suggesting that she talk about anything but paradise and animals.
And that is not actual discrimination which is what you claimed it was promoting and how does one "pass on discrimination" exactly? I thought it was already defined as "treatment".
You can claim it promoted a negative attitude toward gays and that they are not considered compatible with the bible as interpreted by the WTS. That would be accurate.
I'm actually certified and trained in these matters
Great, so you'll be able to explain the discrimination being promoted?
 +4 / -2
cofty
cofty a day ago

there was nothing in the video itself suggesting that she talk about anything but paradise and animals - Simon
This point has been missed a hundred times on this forum in the past couple of weeks.
As a retired LEO Commander... - Lieu
What's one of those?
 +5 / -1
freemindfade
freemindfade a day ago

Comparing homosexuals to contraband luggage IS discrimination. Just because its a metaphor doesn't make it nice. The whole premise of the video is the other little girls parents are bad. Most people can see that watching this once through.



 +3 / -4
cofty
cofty a day ago

Comparing homosexuals to contraband luggage IS discrimination.
Gay sexual relationships are compared to objects that are not allowed on a plane.
 +1 / -0
freemindfade
freemindfade a day ago
Whats the implication then?
 +1 / -1
freemindfade
freemindfade a day ago
Is the message of the video that 1. Gay people are not going to paradise and 2. that they can be changed? is it or is it not? I don't want some little JW brat telling my daughter that kind of crap in school. School is not a kingdom hall.
 +2 / -2

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Maybe I'm Just Ignorant About the New "Anti-Gay" Video
by turtleturtle 2 days ago 146 Replies latest 8 hours ago   jw friends
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littlerockguy
littlerockguy a day ago

In looking at the definition of discrimination, I think the cartoon shows an element of bias toward heterosexuality, shows an element of bigotry, one-sidedness and demonstrates favoritism of straights over gays
dis·crim·i·na·tion
dəˌskriməˈnāSH(ə)n/
noun
noun: discrimination; plural noun: discriminations

1.1.

the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex.
"victims of racial discrimination"
synonyms: prejudice, bias, bigotry, intolerance, narrow-mindedness, unfairness, inequity, favoritism, one-sidedness, partisanship; 
 
 

 +5 / -0
cofty
cofty a day ago

Is the message of the video that 1. Gay people are not going to paradise and 2. that they can be changed? - FMF
The message is ...
1 - People in same-sex relationships are not getting into paradise.
2 - People can choose to stop having gay sex.
The bible says so.
JW children tell their schoolmates all sorts of nonsense.
 +3 / -1
cofty
cofty a day ago

I think the cartoon shows an element of bias toward heterosexuality - LRG
In other news the pope wears a silly hat.
 +4 / -0
freemindfade
freemindfade a day ago

The whole thing is a good example of how JWS try to make the water cloudy on things like abuse, shunning and other sensitive subjects. Just because they make it cloudy won't make me deny what it is.
Maybe cofty and simon can clearly tell me what the video promotes. Because clearly me and a lot of other don't understand it the way they do.
1 - People in same-sex relationships are not getting into paradise. What does that mean?
2 - People can choose to stop having gay sex. When does it say "gay sex"??????



 +4 / -1
cofty
cofty a day ago

Maybe cofty and simon can clearly tell me what the video promotes - FMF
It promotes the belief that JWs should not be influenced by the changing attitudes of "the world" towards gay marriage.
 +3 / -1
freemindfade
freemindfade a day ago

If it was the 60's and someone made a video like this about biracial marriage, what would be the implication Cofty? discrimination or not?
And "not being influenced" and preaching your views on homosexuals and getting into paradise are not the same thing. You are leaving off the preaching bit.
 +3 / -2
cofty
cofty a day ago

Where does the bible condemn interracial marriage?
You are leaving off the preaching bit
What preaching bit?
"But there was nothing in the video itself suggesting that she talk about anything but paradise and animals." - Simon

 +2 / -1
freemindfade
freemindfade a day ago

Where does the bible condemn interracial marriage?
What does that have to do with discrimination??? does the source/origin somehow absolve it ???, Israelites were taught to not mix with the nations. there ya go. Who care if its from the bible or any other book of ignorance.
The point is teaching your kids biracial marriage is wrong or gay marriage is wrong is the same damn thing. And its sick for anyone to make a cartoon about it
"But there was nothing in the video itself suggesting that she talk about anything but paradise and animals." - Simon
Yea that is exactly the way active witness talk about homosexuals. they just talk about panda's and polo's tucked into pleated khaki's and a garden. lol
Again witnesses speak very ugly and abusively of homosexuals. The implication and point of the video accomplishes what it is suppose to. Discrimination.
 +3 / -2
sparrowdown
sparrowdown a day ago

Why do you think the video was made for children? The video is in childish ambiguous paradise-speak for a reason. They couldn't make an adult version of this and get away with it. For one thing adults would be able to connect the dots of the message and tell the nosy witness where the hell to get off. WT likes to hide their propoganda in fairytale scenarios that have no bearing on real life. Just like all their stupid demos and what-not at meetimgs and assemblies.
The good news is I think kids today are smarter than this video.
 +8 / -0
freemindfade
freemindfade a day ago

Why do you think the video was made for children? The video is in childish ambiguous paradise-speak for a reason. They couldn't make an adult version of this and get away with it.
Very good point
Cofty and SImon i feel like you are playing along with the witness ignorance of the awful things they promote.
can you imagine a witness saying "we don't shun people, we just don't let them on the plane, they have to leave the airport" whelp guess they don't practice barbaric shunning because they said it like that. lol come on now.
 +4 / -2

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Maybe I'm Just Ignorant About the New "Anti-Gay" Video
by turtleturtle 2 days ago 146 Replies latest 8 hours ago   jw friends
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cofty
cofty a day ago

does the source/origin somehow absolve it?
No but it explains it.
Many faith groups are softening their stance on gay marriage. The child comes home saying that her teacher said gay marriage is ok and that the only thing that matters is that people love one another - well said teacher.
The problem is the bible unequivocally condemns gay relationships.
Mother tells child that Jehovah has rules about getting into paradise and gay relationships are not allowed.
Mother tells child to tell her school friend about pandas.
Serious question - What would you have them do or say? Do you think it is possible for them to change their rules and allow gay weddings at Kingdom Halls? What would the consequences be on the R&F?
 +2 / -0
steve2
steve2 a day ago

Again, I am with Cofty and Simon on this. Of course there are "levels" of communication that can be deduced from the video - but adhering to what is actually stated in the video, you'd be hard pressed to specify "discrimination".
To repeat from at least three earlier threads on this exhaustively discussed video: When Sophie asks, What should she say to her school friend, her JW mother says talk about Paradise and playing with the animals.
Yet, time and time and time again, posters claim Sophie will now go back to her school friend and criticise the friend's two mothers. I guess she could - but that is not what the video even hints she should say.
Does Sophie's JW mother tell her to avoid the company of her school friend? No. But I guess a JW parent could direct their child to do so. But that is not even what the video even hints at.
And we already know that JWs in actuality choose to distance themselves from all kinds of people - even their own "brothers and sisters" if they do not measure up. It may seem like cold comfort I know, but JWs atrocious views on others extend way beyond sexuality.  They have raised discrimination to a religious art form in which sexuality is but one of innumerable "Must to Avoid" categories.
This is an unfortunate example of people allowing their understandable sensitivity to get in the way of what the video actually states.
Do I think the video is homophobic. There's a cautious "Yes" from me but certainly not a strong sense that it is neither blatant nor excessive from a religious group known for its adherence to Biblical views on sexual relationships (and that is not an endorsement from me by the way).
 +6 / -1
sparrowdown
sparrowdown a day ago

Yeah, I see the connection a child's drawing of her two mothers which Sophia spies out, pulls it down off the blackboard, and pulls an icky face. Sophia then goes home tells Mom about the two mommies drawing which prompts a bizarre illustration about planes and luggage with the conclusion being "tell so-and-so about the paradise." Yeah makes soo much sense.
 +3 / -0
krejames
krejames a day ago

I genuinely can't make my mind up on this. My boyfriend had seen the video on Pinknews and told me he thought it was ridiculous how the ex-JWs were portraying it as homophobic etc. It's just doing what religions do best...
I kind of agree. BUT at the end of the day, "homophobic" is just a technicality. Who cares? There is no doubt in my mind this is a very dangerous video purely because of the unhealthy effect if will have on gay JW children. I remember all too well what that was like and at one point being on the brink of suicide.
Replace "two mommies" with any two ethnic minorities and I don't think we would be having a debate about whether the video were discriminatory or racist. Or that JWs are entitled to believe what they like as long as they were not actually promoting discriminatory behaviour like refusing to serve ethnic minorities in a shop. It's subtle. Cleverly subtle. But maybe my boyfriend is right, arguing as to whether it is homophobic is ridiculous and just makes us gay xjws look bad.
But that wouldnt stop me expressing my disgust to a JW about this dangerous video if the chance came up to do so.
 +3 / -0
Simon
Simon a day ago

Maybe cofty and simon can clearly tell me what the video promotes. Because clearly me and a lot of other don't understand it the way they do.
Well I think it's pretty obvious what the video promotes. It's the idea that the bible is the word of god, and god (via the bible) condemns homosexuality and says not to practice it. There is no message of hate or any hint of a suggestion that people be discriminated against however. Just as with anyone who won't get into paradise for whatever reason, they believe that is all up to god to handle (they are a hands-off religion).
Cofty and SImon i feel like you are playing along with the witness ignorance of the awful things they promote.
Far from it, I'm just not joining in calling something awful when it really isn't. Of all the bible beliefs and religious attitudes towards homosexuals, the WTS must rank along some of the very mildest. I think most of the comments about this video are based on what people would like for it to have contained to justify the inappropriate outrage when the reality is, it isn't as they portray it. I doubt many have even watched it.
For some, even that is clearly too much and the place to battle. Personally, I think it simply makes people look petty and foolish and too much outrage over too little tends to piss away goodwill that people have for any 'cause and the ones doing it look increasingly like whiners who just want to find fault in anything and everything.
can you imagine a witness saying "we don't shun people, we just don't let them on the plane, they have to leave the airport" whelp guess they don't practice barbaric shunning because they said it like that. lol come on now
If they said that then it would be right to challenge them on it and call it out. That is your problem - all the way through you add "IF" and insert your own convenient example of what would be hypocritical and / or discriminatory. But none of that means that they say the things you claim in the video.
So final chance - do you want to admit that they are not actually teaching discrimination in it?
Discrimination is a very real and insidious thing and I'd rather not see a real issue which is a real problem for people conflated with some imaginary "oh no, my feelings were hurt" first-world pretend problem.
If someone walks into a shop wearing a hijab and the owner refuses to serve them because of it, are they being discriminated against? It depends - if they have a sign saying no helmets, hoodies etc... then no. If they just don't like muslims then yes. No one should ever be told that they can't get what the next person in line is going to buy simply because they are gay, black, short, fat or anything else (except maybe a United supporter).
At some point things move beyond inconveniences of buying cakes and such and into the realm of impacting people's lives (issuing marriage licenses, not giving people jobs) and real life and death issues (can an EMS responder refuse to treat a gay man?).
Yes, REAL issues. Not "someone else is teaching their kid that their pretend god isn't going to invite me to their make -believe world".
 +5 / -2
Simon
Simon a day ago

The implication and point of the video accomplishes what it is suppose to. Discrimination.
Still, you haven't said what discrimination it accomplishes. Do you even know what discrimination is? I gave some examples to make things clearer.
Replace "two mommies" with any two ethnic minorities and I don't think we would be having a debate about whether the video were discriminatory or racist.
The bible is the issue for things like that. You can't replace it with black people or anything else not quotable because then it's clearly invented and they don't have the fallback of "it says so in the bible" (because the bible does say those things). I think that is what some people are missing when they try to compare it to interracial marriage etc.
There is still the difference between opinions and beliefs and discrimination. Discrimination is a real manifestation of the belief, the belief in itself is not discrimination unless it's applied. Someone can have racist opinions for instance, but not be guilty of contravening someone's civil rights but if they do the latter, they likely have racist opinions.
Or that JWs are entitled to believe what they like as long as they were not actually promoting discriminatory behaviour like refusing to serve ethnic minorities in a shop. It's subtle. Cleverly subtle.
I agree. They know where the line is and they are much cleverer than, well, many of us it seems so stay well away from it. There are lots of things they could have said that would still have fallen under the banner of "the bible tells us so" but they didn't. The message was pretty mild, especially for a conservative christian religious group. I can understand why some see more into it than it actually contains. Being objective, especially when something is emotive and may have had such an impact on people's personal lives, is very difficult. That's why it's important to have some rational voices play devils advocate and question if things are really as some are claiming them to be.
 +3 / -1
freemindfade
freemindfade a day ago
Steve2 cofty and Simon. With a simple yes or no answer if this video with the exact same message and presentation dealt with biracial couples instead of homosexual would it be considered discrimination? Yes or no? If everything you are pontificating on is true you should be able to just say no. Go ahead.
 +1 / -2
Simon
Simon a day ago

With a simple yes or no answer if this video with the exact same message and presentation dealt with biracial couples instead of homosexual would it be considered discrimination? Yes or no?
No. But then you don't seem to have a clue what discrimination actually *is* which is a significant part of the issue.
Most people would consider it racist because it wouldn't 'benefit' from the cover that the bible provides for other outdated views.
Let me ask you a question: if I tell my child that you lack the magical power to get into Hogwarts, have you been discriminated against?
 +3 / -2
cofty
cofty a day ago

if this video ... dealt with biracial couples
It doesn't.
There are plenty things to condemn the cult for without inventing hypothetical crimes.
 +4 / -0
freemindfade
freemindfade a day ago

So condemning a biracial couple and a same sex couple are tantamount or not? What's the difference? Whether is bible or harry potter..
 +0 / -2

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Maybe I'm Just Ignorant About the New "Anti-Gay" Video
by turtleturtle 2 days ago 146 Replies latest 8 hours ago   jw friends
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Jehalapeno
Jehalapeno a day ago

Simon you just said that the video isn't awful.
Surely you're just referring to the quality of the animation. Because the message that "God doesn't let gays into paradise," although in line with what the bible says, is an awful awful message.
 +1 / -1
slimboyfat
slimboyfat a day ago

Put it this way. Imagine the video said black people can't get into paradise. Imagine it then said "people can change". It doesn't matter how polite you make that message or if you avoid direct insults. The message itself is simply out of order.
Like it or not, the next generation of young people think bigotry based on sexuality is just as unacceptable as racism. It doesn't matter if it's tradition (so was racism) or commonplace (so was racism) or supported by reference to the Bible (so was racism) or a matter of religious freedom (so was racism).
Ultimately none of those excuses cut any ice because we are all human beings and for 95% of humans to say to the other 5% that they must have no prospect of any intimate life or else they will be branded sinners for destruction is just simply unacceptable. It is hate speech. End of story.
 +4 / -2
cofty
cofty a day ago

It is hate speech. End of story.- SBF
So what do you think the cult should do?
Should they sanction gay weddings in the Kingdom Hall and appoint elders who are in gay relationships?
 +1 / -0
freemindfade
freemindfade a day ago

Cofty you asked me a question earlier but I was driving about what I would do. Well now I would tell my daughter her teacher is right. Before I was exjw I might have struggled to explain it in a nice way (as I was never good at judging people). But I would have had a discrimination mentality no matter how soft I tried yo make it and I would be passing it along to my daughter. If there was a scale for discrimination this might not be between 5-10 but it would be on the scale.
The reasons that you guys protest for the video are the things that I think make it so insidieous and ugly. Trying to paint dissemination as a cute kids story with safe words that isnite hate without saying it.
 +0 / -2
littlerockguy
littlerockguy a day ago

Cofty,
Why not have them sanction gay weddings. Turning a place of worship into a house of commerce is condemned in the bible also but they make allowances for that with their debit/credit card machines in their worship centers. Overlapping generation equalling 1 generation isn't biblical either. Jesus was silent about homosexuality. Isn't he is the one to closely follow and not Paul (was was the one who condemned men being together in his letters)?
LRG
 +2 / -1
cofty
cofty a day ago

The reasons that you guys protest for the video....
Careful. Nobody is "for" the video.
 +2 / -0
cofty
cofty a day ago
LRG - were you ever a JW?
 
Jehalapeno
Jehalapeno a day ago

It's a weird moment when I agree with Slimboyfat over Cofty.
 +1 / -0
littlerockguy
littlerockguy a day ago

Cofty,
I was baptized in 1987
 
slimboyfat
slimboyfat a day ago

It depends what you mean by "should do". There are lots of things I think they should do, like stop shunning, report crimes, allow transfusions, promote education, promote civic involvement. But at the end of it they wouldn't be JWs any more I suppose. And no bad thing some might say.
But perhaps by "should do" you mean "what realistically can they do while maintaining their organisation?" At the moment probably not a lot, realistically. It would cause major problems if they suddenly accepted gay marriage right now.
They can shut up about it however. No one forced them to make a video on this topic.
Plus we can't assume the pressures will always be the same. If societal trends continue, time may come when 90% of the public support gay marriage, and increasing numbers of JWs support gay marriage too. What then? It may reach a point where it's more painful to stick to bigotry than it is to change. At that point, or knowing JWs a few years after that point has already been reached, then they will change policy.
The rationale for,doing so has been tried and tested by other religious groups. Simply endorse the idea of stable relationships of all sorts, categorise married gay couples as conforming to a conventional stable framework, and bless away. Say the Old Testament is out of date, Paul didn't refer to gay sex inside marriage, and hey presto. You got yourself a formula for gay JW couples.
 +1 / -1

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Maybe I'm Just Ignorant About the New "Anti-Gay" Video
by turtleturtle 2 days ago 146 Replies latest 8 hours ago   jw friends
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cofty
cofty a day ago

Jesus was silent about homosexuality. Isn't he is the one to closely follow and not Paul (was was the one who condemned men being together in his letters)? - LRG
So do you really think they could throw all of Paul's writings in the bin and still expect not to go out of business in a heartbeat?
Say the Old Testament is out of date. - SBF
You have lost the plot. They are an OT religion!
So all they have to do is tear all of the OT and all of Paul's letters out the bible and sanction gay weddings.
Sorted!
 +2 / -0
slimboyfat
slimboyfat a day ago

They routinely call the Old Testament out of date over things like the sabbath. You were a JW weren't you?
Plus they readily ignore a great many texts in the New Testament. There are a dozen or more New Testament texts that talk about hell fire, torment, forever and ever and so on. They explain away every single one.
Of course they can reinterpret the text to suit themselves. They are masters at it. The question is not can it be done. It can be done. The question is when the pressure for them to change will become sufficient for them to do it.

 +1 / -1
cofty
cofty a day ago

They routinely call the Old Testament out of date over things like the sabbath.
No they don't. They use NT texts to explain why keeping the Law is not binding on christians. The NT specifically says not to worry about keeping the sabbath. "You were a JW weren't you?"
Problem is the NT is just as unambiguously opposed to gay relationships as the OT.
Opposition to gay marriage is so deeply ingrained in JWs it will never happen.
I don't understand this unrealistic fantasy about a new friendlier JW organisation. It is beyond redemption.
 +3 / -0
slimboyfat
slimboyfat a day ago

Of course that is the point. They say the OT doesn't apply because it's been replaced.
The NT teaches hell fire. It doesn't stop JWs claiming the opposite. And texts on homosexuality have arguably more wriggle room than hell fire texts. They only refer to certain kinds of relationships which aguably don't apply if gay people get married.
Personally I never thought gay marriage would happen at all ten years ago. It seemed like a contradiction in terms to my brain then. I've seen veteran gay activists interviewed say even they never dreamed it would happen. Funny how things change!
JWs can change too. In fact the Pew suvey suggests they are already changing because 50% more JWs accepted gay people in 2014 than 7 years earlier. At that rate it won't take long!
 +2 / -1
krejames
krejames a day ago

To everyone saying that the bible backs up the message in the video, I respectfully disagree. The bible says nothing about homosexuality in particular a loving romantic relationship between two people of the same sex (unless you include Jonathan and David). it only goes so far as to condemn intercourse between two men*.
Like I said in another thread on this subject- those two mommies might well have had a celibate relationship. It's no one's place to make judgements about what may or may not go on behind closed doors. The witnesses consistently go beyond what the bible actually says. The message of this video is that the family unit would need to break up if they want to enter paradise. And that anyone who is homosexual can change their orientation.
The comparison with racism is right. Because the witnesses did used to teach a racist message which they used the bible to justify. Only time has changed that. The bible is still the same. No one would now argue that the witnesses message of 70 years ago or so wasn't racist. I think it will be the same with their message about homosexuality. Indeed it is already.
*edit - and even then it's only mentioned in the context of orgies or illicit or pagan practices.

 
cofty
cofty a day ago

It's no one's place to make judgements about what may or may not go on behind closed doors.
You and I know that.
They will DF a hetrosexual couple for spending a night together in the same house unchaperoned.
 +1 / -0
slimboyfat
slimboyfat a day ago

Russell suggested that black people would turn white in the new system.
This video says gay people can change if they want to get to paradise.
One day (already here for many) we'll view those two statements as equally offensive and (perhaps crucially) equally bizarre.
 +3 / -1
just fine
just fine a day ago

I think the video is ridiculous and hope they get a lot of bad publicity out of it.
But I think I see what some are trying to say. When a baker doesn't make a cake for a gay couple it is discriminatory. The cake is tangible and has been made for many straight couples. Therefore it should be available to anyone who wants a cake.
Paradise is a made up place, that you get to with (ever changing) made up rules. And no one can ever prove that a straight person made it to paradise and a gay person did not.
So it's not okay to discriminate in real world situations, but we can all have whatever made up rules, affecting made up places we want.
Do I have the argument right? Just trying to understand,not trying to start a shit-storm.
 +5 / -0
cofty
cofty a day ago

Strawman once again SBF.
Nobody is defending the video as being objectively right. I realise you must get a buzz of righteous indignation by pretending you are arguing with a watchtower apologist. You are not.
Why is anybody the least bit surprised and feigning outrage when a bunch of biblical literalists take a position on a biblical prohibition?
 +5 / -0
Simon
Simon a day ago

So condemning a biracial couple and a same sex couple are tantamount or not? What's the difference? Whether is bible or harry potter.
There is a difference (to them) as someone can abstain from sex, you can't abstain from your race.
Simon you just said that the video isn't awful. Surely you're just referring to the quality of the animation. Because the message that "God doesn't let gays into paradise," although in line with what the bible says, is an awful awful message.
No, it's not the awful video of homophobia peaching hate and discrimination that some have claimed and certainly been unable to demonstrate in any cohesive way.
That is not the same thing as praising it as some black/white thinkers will no doubt interpret it.
I think most of the bible is crap, but it is what it is and the video is a very mild interpretation of it.
Imagine the video said ...
Except it doesn't, so why bother?
Imagine it said "SBF is a genius" ... then would you praise it? These "what if it said this" games are ludicrous and pointless. Let's all pretend it says to sacrifice babies in a furnace. There ya' go - tell the newspapers. I mean, if we're not going to base it on facts then we may as well make up whatever we want to make our case, eh? Is that how it works?
Like it or not, the next generation of young people think bigotry based on sexuality is just as unacceptable as racism.
Neither are "won" battles.
It is hate speech. End of story.
Except it isn't. I think your argument ended though.
But I would have had a discrimination mentality no matter how soft I tried yo make it and I would be passing it along to my daughter. If there was a scale for discrimination this might not be between 5-10 but it would be on the scale.
Wow, so far in and still you are clueless as to what discrimination is.
To everyone saying that the bible backs up the message in the video, I respectfully disagree. The bible says nothing about homosexuality
That's simply not true. It says plenty and in pretty direct terms:
https://carm.org/bible-homosexuality
.
At the end of the day, and what I think many people don't "get", is that they have their religious belief based on the bible interpretation, that marriage is strictly between man and woman and you don't have to like it but you have to respect it. They are entitled to hold that belief, they are allowed to teach it to their kids, they are allowed to preach that belief to others and while they don't (as other groups do), they would be entitled to campaign politically to promote that belief to be law.
Personally, I disagree with most bible based beliefs because I think it's a book of crap. But I can recognize that their belief is at least consistent with the bible and is defensible from that position.
Just as someone else being gay or not shouldn't matter to us, so someone else being religious and believing what they want about who they want shouldn't matter to us either. Freedom isn't just allowing the things you like and banning everything you don't.
What is of consequence is whether people a) use hate speech and b) promote and practice discrimination (actual discrimination, not whatever freemindfade thinks it is). At that point they trespass into an area where the law can step in and hold them accountable for violating other people's rights.
But they haven't, not with this video.
 +6 / -0

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Maybe I'm Just Ignorant About the New "Anti-Gay" Video
by turtleturtle 2 days ago 146 Replies latest 8 hours ago   jw friends
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slimboyfat
slimboyfat a day ago

Strawman once again SBF.
Nobody is defending the video as being objectively right
Huh? Where did I say that?
 +0 / -1
Simon
Simon a day ago

But I think I see what some are trying to say. When a baker doesn't make a cake for a gay couple it is discriminatory. The cake is tangible and has been made for many straight couples. Therefore it should be available to anyone who wants a cake.
Exactly.
Paradise is a made up place, that you get to with (ever changing) made up rules. And no one can ever prove that a straight person made it to paradise and a gay person did not.
Bingo. To make it be actual discrimination would require that we prove the WTS was right and paradise is real ... but then if they are right then god exists then he does get to make the rules and decide what he wants to do with gay people. i.e. there is no real scenario where it's discrimination.
So it's not okay to discriminate in real world situations, but we can all have whatever made up rules, affecting made up places we want.
Do I have the argument right? Just trying to understand,not trying to start a shit-storm.
Yes, that is exactly what I've been saying. Anyone claiming the video is itself discriminatory simply doesn't understand the meaning of the word and neither is it promoting discrimination. People have the chance to explain how they thought it was, they were unable to offer their explanation.
Furthermore I don't think it's without any cost to overextend criticism. It hurts credibility of future criticism of the WTS and doesn't convince independents who look at it and think "yeah, maybe those apostates are just bitter".
And yes, there are people who do suffer REAL discrimination and I'm sorry, if I had and I found some people claiming that video was the same thing I'd be pretty angry because it's simply not.
 +5 / -0
JWdaughter
JWdaughter a day ago
I don't know about any of what the Labels would be for that video, but I do know that the WT has just drawn attention to itself by this and is now on the radar of human rights groups. So, no issue with that.
 +4 / -0
slimboyfat
slimboyfat a day ago

There is a difference (to them) as someone can abstain from sex, you can't abstain from your race.
There are two things wrong with this statement that a JW might make.
1. Gay people aren't simply being asked to abstain from sex the way unmarried heterosexual JWs are. They are told to renounce any possibility of a satisfying intimate relationship on pain of being branded a sinner fit for destruction. This is in no way equal to an unmarried JW who may hope and aspire to an intimate relationship even if it never happens.
2. People modify their race all the time. Unless they conceive of "race" as some fixed genetic category rather than a socially costructed marker of identity. In which case I think we are in different centuries.
 +0 / -6
cofty
cofty a day ago

Gay people aren't simply being asked to abstain from sex the way unmarried heterosexual JWs are. They are told to renounce any possibility of a satisfying intimate relationship
Around half of males in the LGBT community identify as bisexual.
For them having sex with another man is a choice.
In your opinion is it equally wrong for the WT to refuse them the right to make that choice?
 +4 / -0
bennyk
bennyk a day ago

The Watch Tower Society has violated no one's civil rights with this video.
No one is obligated to become a Jehovah's Witness.
 +4 / -1
slimboyfat
slimboyfat a day ago

I agree with you there is choice and upbringing involved in sexuality (I am not an essentialist). That's not a get out of jail free card for bigotry. There's an element of choice with regard to race too. You can emphasise, modify or erase this or that aspect of racial identity too. It doesn't make racism alright.
Even if we allow for bigotry against bisexual people (on the basis of tenuous and selective conceptions of "choice") what about those who identify as homosexual and not bisexual?
 +1 / -0
Simon
Simon a day ago

This is in no way equal to an unmarried JW who may hope and aspire to an intimate relationship even if it never happens
So *not* having gay sex is different to *not* having straight sex?
People modify their race all the time
I think that's an exaggeration and, frankly, idiotic. I can only think of MJ and that Rachel Dolezol woman who was white and claimed to be black last year.
The point was made to your comment comparing gay people being celibate with black people changing color.
 +5 / -0
Billy the Ex-Bethelite
Billy the Ex-Bethelite a day ago

Can someone tell me, specifically, was homophobic about the new "Anti-gay" WT video. Particularly, what showed an "irrational fear", "aversion", or "discrimination"?
The entire JW belief system and all WT teachings are based on "irrational fear" of so many things, from plastic toy wizards to a cataclismic armageddon that is always just around the corner. They have an "aversion" to everything from cartoons about warrior wizards to asking questions that are just a little too apostate. And "discrimination"? They don't just discriminate against all "worldly" people, they discriminate against their fellow JWs for some of the most trivial of reasons!
When someone has a fear of everything, should we be surprised for them to tell the world that they're afraid of spiders?

With their "One Dude, One Non-dude" video, I think they're pretty tame on their condemnation of homosexuality compared to most of the previous things we've read and heard from WT on the subject. At least the video mom didn't scream "OH GROSS! Now I've got to scrub you in bleach so you don't catch HOMO! And we're homeschooling you from now on! Armageddon can't come soon enough to rain rocks on the heads of all the worldly people, especially those gays parading around in the tightest of pants!" No, WT would probably save that message for the cartoon when Caleb comes home and tells his mom that some apostates tried to offer him candy and talk to him.
Don't get me wrong, I think the video is horrible and dripping with cult poison, But it has about the same level of hatred and discrimination toward gays that WT shows toward all worldly people, and some JWs that are doing enough or wear pants that are too tight.

What I'm not sure about though is the situation with the dude and the duffle bag as an illustration of being gay. Was the dude gay and he had his dwarf boyfriend in the carry-on bag? Or was he straight, but had certain sex toys in the bag that aren't allowed around pandas? In which case, it isn't so much that the video is anti-gay, it's just really, really weird.

 +3 / -0
krejames
krejames a day ago

To everyone saying that the bible backs up the message in the video, I respectfully disagree. The bible says nothing about homosexuality
That's simply not true. It says plenty and in pretty direct terms:"
erm, actually no it doesn't. the sex act is a part of homosexuality but it is not homosexuality.The bible only speaks about the sex act (and arguable only anal sex). It does not speak about homosexuality. I'm sure you would agree that heterosexuality is so much more than simply a man and woman having penetrative sex.
 +2 / -0

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Maybe I'm Just Ignorant About the New "Anti-Gay" Video
by turtleturtle 2 days ago 146 Replies latest 8 hours ago   jw friends
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slimboyfat
slimboyfat a day ago

Having no prospect of an intimate relationship is different than having the possibility of an intimate relationship even if it never happens. Radically different.
Modifying one's racial Idenity is extremely common, from subtle to extreme.
 +0 / -1
slimboyfat
slimboyfat a day ago

Why is anybody the least bit surprised and feigning outrage when a bunch of biblical literalists take a position on a biblical prohibition.
How come you don't go on threads discussing shunning or blood saying:
Why is anybody the least bit surprised and feigning outrage when a bunch of biblical literalists take a position on a biblical practice of shunning?
Or,
How can you expect them to change their stance on blood it would destroy them!
Why is this particular strain of pragmatic incredulity reserved for threads where people argue that homophobic JW teaching is unacceptable?
 +6 / -2
just fine
just fine a day ago

According to the JWs everyone on this site is going be baggage left at the airport right along with gay people and anyone else who doesn't agree with them. They are equal opportunity paradise barring people.
See you all at the baggage claim 🍻
 +8 / -0
Diogenesister
Diogenesister a day ago

Like someone can just drop homosexual leanings or desires like a dropping a piece of carry-on luggage.
Its worse than that...they expect gay people to just drop their loved one like a piece of carry-on luggage too....oh hang on, they already expect people to do that with their kids, fathers, mothers, wives, grandfathers,aunties, cousins...etc...at least then they are equal opportunities shunners!!
 +3 / -0
Coded Logic
Coded Logic a day ago
Except of course that you're allowed to have "kids, fathers, mothers, wives, grandfathers,aunties, cousins...etc.." However, homosexuals are not allowed to have partners. Not exactly "equal opportunity shunning" here.
 +1 / -0
Diogenesister
Diogenesister a day ago

At that point they trespass into an area where the law can step in and hold them accountable for violating other people's rights.
You are right , but I do think WT are treading on thin ice with this one. Essentially the video is a) teaching their kids to be bigoted and b) telling them to go preach that bigotry to their schoolmate with gay parents.
Given that most schools in the US and UK etc aim to create a safe environment for ALL pupils regardless of creed, religion, sexual preference and family background etc a kid going JW sherrif all over school and making fellow pupils feel like shit in the process is likely to cause a shitstorm if said gay parents are inclined to make an issue of it. I don't know where all this would lead but I do know one thing, the JW kid is likely to have another viewpoint vehemently rammed down her throat by the school board . A good thing of course but not from a dub parents point of veiw.
 +1 / -0
ILoveTTATT2
ILoveTTATT2 a day ago

Here's my opinion on this:
Simon implies that there is no discrimination because the mom tells Sophia to tell her classmate about pandas.
I can see a couple of things happening.
Suppose Sophia goes and tells her classmate about the pandas. Her classmate, being a kid, is like "cool! I want to pet pandas too! How?"
And Sophia goes, "Well, you have to follow Jehovah's rules. And Jehovah's rules say that no one who is practicing homosexuality can go into paradise."
"Girl is like, but my two mommy's are gay!"
Sophia says, "well, they can change and please Jehovah, and you can be in paradise with them petting pandas"!
girl says: "what happens if they don't change?"
Sophia: "well... (Hesitates)... The Bible says they will be destroyed at armageddon."
The classmate gets scared, has trauma thinking that her moms are going to be murdered by God.
Scenario 2:
Kid being raised by JW's sees this video. He knows that he likes boys, not girls. He feels horrible and prays and prays to Jehovah to make him like girls, but to no avail.
Whether discriminatory or not or homophobic or not... The fact is, this video can result in extreme harm, up to and including suicide.
On another note, the Spanish Wikipedia suggests that the word "homonegative" be used instead of "homophobic" because of the first response of lots of people being "it's not a phobia"!
Cofty, you likely get pissed off when people say "it's only a theory" regarding evolution.
Let's leave semantics aside and focus on the potential harm this video could cause.
I see many good reasons why the video should be denounced.
I agree with SBF, they could STFU about homosexuality.
 +3 / -0
Simon
Simon a day ago

I do think WT are treading on thin ice with this one. Essentially the video is a) teaching their kids to be bigoted and b) telling them to go preach that bigotry to their schoolmate with gay parents.
Except it does neither of those things.
Given that most schools in the US and UK etc aim to create a safe environment for ALL pupils regardless of creed, religion, sexual preference and family background etc a kid going JW sherrif all over school and making fellow pupils feel like shit in the process is likely to cause a shitstorm if said gay parents are inclined to make an issue of it. I don't know where all this would lead but I do know one thing, the JW kid is likely to have another viewpoint vehemently rammed down her throat by the school board . A good thing of course but not from a dub parents point of veiw.
So here's how it also works - why is the teacher "preaching" gay marriage to the religious kids?
Again, where in the video is it suggested that the JW child be in any way judgmental of other people's choices? The parent says "other people make their own decisions".
What would you have the message be?
Heck, when I was at school it would have been "why do you have worldly friends?!?!" so they have progressed since then. Now JW kids can hang around with kids with gay parents. Pretty amazing.
I can see a couple of things happening.
We could write lots of alternative endings both positive and negative. None of them alter the content of the video itself. The child with the gay parents could become depressed and bring a gun to school to shoot everyone. Who knows. If we're playing "what might happen" then we can make up literally anything.
 +4 / -1
sparrowdown
sparrowdown a day ago

In the video there is a buffer between Sophia and the classmate as she goes home and tells mom who then tells her what to do. But in reality the message will be given directly to the kids because it's a video designed for kids.
Kids are not known for their tactfulness, or ability to contextualize they will say the darndest things after all. Most parents of children under ten or so know to be careful what to tell them as they can blurt stuff out in a way that sounds offensive or even wrong to any random person. The governing body won't have to deal with any potential blowback from this video's message the witness kids will. Shit rolls downhill, sorry kids.
 +2 / -0
krejames
krejames a day ago
Actually the video doesn't even mention that the two mommies are having sex. No evidence that they're doing anything "unscriptural". They could be sisters for all we know. But nice that the judgmental mom of Sophia assumes they are doing the deed otherwise why would she even comment on it? After all the bible does not forbid having two mommies. 😛
 +4 / -1

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Maybe I'm Just Ignorant About the New "Anti-Gay" Video
by turtleturtle 2 days ago 146 Replies latest 8 hours ago   jw friends
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Simon
Simon a day ago

Actually the video doesn't even mention that the two mommies are having sex. No evidence that they're doing anything "unscriptural". They could be sisters for all we know.
I think the video being called "One man, One woman: What is God’s standard for marriage, and why is it important?" makes it clear that the two mommies are married and therefore gay.
If they are not having sex then what's the problem? They have nexus - straight through with their baggage and onto the plane.

 +2 / -0
sparrowdown
sparrowdown a day ago

I thought the same thing krejames.
The video makes assumptions based on a child's drawing.
 
scotsman
scotsman a day ago

Let's face it, there's a generational problem. Just like some elderly people struggle to identify racist language or attitudes, some people find it hard to understand homophobia. They usually quote the dictionary.
 +2 / -0
Simon
Simon a day ago

If we can't rely on what words mean, it's pretty difficult to have a conversation about many things - they are the bricks to the building blocks of discussion. Correct meaning of words and their appropriate usage is essential for clear communication.
Some people of the next generation use the word "gay" to mean rubbish for instance. Is that better, or worse? Helpful or not?
I think when we're having a serious discussion it's assumed that people are using the correct and generally accepted meaning of words. That's why I'm so keen to make sure that people using "discrimination" know what they are actually claiming.
Saying that a video is discriminatory is kind of strange. Can watching a YouTube video cause you to be discriminated against? I don't think so (other than issues todo with accessibility / captioning if applicable)
 +3 / -0
scotsman
scotsman a day ago

My grandfather refused to accept that calling someone from Pakistan a "Paki" was unacceptable, he didn't think it was racist. By this one definition of racism, maybe it wasn't

Simple Definition of racism

◦: poor treatment of or violence against people because of their race

◦: the belief that some races of people are better than others

 +1 / -1
Simon
Simon a day ago

My grandfather refused to accept that calling someone from Pakistan a "Paki" was unacceptable, he didn't think it was racist. By this one definition of racism, maybe it wasn't
I'm pretty sure that was racist language then just as it is now but I don't know what the comparison is meant to prove. Calling any group by a name they haven't chosen is normally done for a reason, rarely noble.
The video was not calling gay people "homos" or "fags" or any other such slurs.
 +2 / -0
scotsman
scotsman a day ago

The point is that he didn't think it was racist language just like some people want homophobia to be strictly defined as violence against or fear of. It's more subtle than that just like racism can be.
The JW cartoon provides the context that perpetuates stigma against same sex couples. Yes it's consistent with their past and their interpretation of the Bible but that doesn't make it any less depressing for anyone struggling to come to terms with their sexuality.
But Simon while I'm sure you will continue to see this as another overreaction, I wish you all the best.
 +3 / -0
Simon
Simon a day ago

I don't think your comparison to racism works or that anyone has suggested that homophobia is strictly defined as violence. If that were the case then the Westboro Baptist Church wouldn't be considered homophobic which would be ridiculous. It does include hatred / intense dislike though which of course does apply to them.
Words and labels matter do. You can try to label anything as homophobic but if it really isn't, people will question the label and the motive for it. Some people identify so strongly with an issue that they can't see things objectively and want to apply it to the things they blame for their past pains. Credibility is hard to gain but quick and easy to lose when labels are over-applied.

Overreactions don't help a cause, they weaken it. They wear away sympathies because deep down most people want things to be fair whether that is praise or criticism. I'm simply unwilling to take part in the politics of offence on this issue.
While the video isn't pro-gay (duh) that doesn't make it homophobic or promoting discrimination. Sure, people can wave their hands and protest and invent stories of what they think happens after the end of the story but none of that alters the facts of the video itself which is mild, contains no derogatory language and doesn't promote people making judgments or prevention of other people's right to make their own choices.
If that is homophobic, then why is being gay such an issue?
 +2 / -1
slimboyfat
slimboyfat a day ago
If telling someone to sit at the back of a bus is racism, then telling someone they shouldn't have an intimate relationship is obviously homophobic. What's more of a deprivation, where you sit on a bus or whether you can have an intimate relationship?
 +3 / -1
krejames
krejames a day ago

For me the argument about whether the video is homophobic or discriminatory is just semantics and is by the by.
This is the bottom line: Is the video poisonous and prejudiced? Yes it is, based on the psychological effect it will have. Just like the JW narrative about homosexuality in its talks and literature. This time it was in a cute video for kids.
Prejudice and discrimination usually go hand in hand. That's why, for example, many JW parents would be willing to meet and associate with their exJW son's girlfriend and would have them in their lives but wouldn't want to meet their exJW son's boyfriend. This is why a drifter who goes out and has a "worldly" heterosexual relationship is much less likely to get disfellowshipped whereas s drifter who goes out and has a homosexual relationship must usually keep it quiet forevermore if they don't want to get disfellowshipped or cut off from their family.
i could go on. The psychological effect of any prejudice and the discrimination that is the result of it is high. Somewhere along the line this point has got lost in the arguments over homophobia and discrimination etc.
Do I think it should be banned? Not any more than any other prejudicial media. But I think it's right to draw the world's attention to this video because it IS aimed at children and paints its prejudice with such a rosy disneyfied hue as to be all the more abhorrent.
 +6 / -0

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Maybe I'm Just Ignorant About the New "Anti-Gay" Video
by turtleturtle 2 days ago 146 Replies latest 8 hours ago   jw friends
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punkofnice
punkofnice a day ago

I don't know about the WBT$ propaganda.
It's just a pity that the WBT$ isn't paedo-phobic.
I see it as very hypocritical that they denounce being gay (for whatever stupid reason), but in reality do NOTHING to stop paedophilia within the congregations.
 +5 / -0
LoveUniHateExams
LoveUniHateExams a day ago

There is a difference (to them) as someone can abstain from sex, you can't abstain from your race - excellent point.
I think most of the bible is crap, but it is what it is and the video is a very mild interpretation of it - agree.
I disagree with the video but as Cofty keeps asking how would you have them interpret the bible? The bible's view of homosexuality can only be interpreted one way - negative.
 +1 / -0
cofty
cofty a day ago

Why is this particular strain of pragmatic incredulity reserved for threads where people argue that homophobic JW teaching is unacceptable? - SBF
Because both the OT and the NT explicitly condemn gay sex. There is no sensible way to get around that.
The practice of shunning and prohibition regarding blood transfusions are based on a blatant perversion of what the bible says.
It is about holding the WT to their own claims regarding the authority of scripture.
 +3 / -0
slimboyfat
slimboyfat a day ago

This is hard to follow. Are you saying it's more important to you that JWs are faithful to scripture (as you understand it) than that they stop making homophobic statements? Or what are you saying?
As I've pointed out repeatedly, other Bible believers can interpret the Bible as compatible with gay marriage. If JWs can deny hell in the NT they are certainly capable of reinterpreting homosexuality too.
 +3 / -2
cofty
cofty a day ago

other Bible believers can interpret the Bible as compatible with gay marriage
No they can't. They first have to reject the authority of the bible.
Why do you spell bible with upper-case "B"?
If JWs can deny hell in the NT they are certainly capable of reinterpreting homosexuality too.
There is absolutely no comparison. Hell has been to be read into the text. It originates in non-canonical books. The bible's prohibition on gay sex is explicit. Going round in circles now. Bye.
 +2 / -1
TheListener
TheListener 21 hours ago

I do not agree with the video! But, this thread confused me. So I have a question.
Here is my question: IF IF IF IF I believed homosexuality, with or without sex, was against bible teaching would it be discriminatory to teach that to my kids? And if not should I have to use preapproved language vetted by the LGBTQ community?
Does everyone have to believe that homosexuality is ok and teach that to their kids?
Again, I don't agree with the video.
 
Je.suis.oisif
Je.suis.oisif 21 hours ago
Good reasoning Cofty. Thanks for the unemotional clarification. Cuts right through all the verbiage.
 
krejames
krejames 19 hours ago

The listener: "Here is my question: IF IF IF IF I believed homosexuality, with or without sex, was against bible teaching would it be discriminatory to teach that to my kids? And if not should I have to use preapproved language vetted by the LGBTQ community?"
its not about getting any pre approval. When they believed that black people were cursed as slaves, based on the bible, should they have used pre-approved language endorsed by the black community before teaching that rubbish to their children? The answer is they shouldn't have been prejudiced in the first place (whether or not endorsed by the bible) and the answer is the same now.
Several comments still appear to equate homosexuality with a sex act. I repeat if a heterosexual drifter enters a heterosexual unmarried relationship with a worldly person, they are generally allowed to get on with it. No one asks whether they are having sex. The partner is often accepted/associated with too in time. If a drifter/fader has a homosexual relationship even years after leaving, they are more likely to be shunned whether or not they are known to be having sex. Remember the bible only comments on a sex act, not the relationship. The sin in both cases would be exactly the same: fornication (whether homosexual or heterosexual). This is an example of the type of discrimination that occurs as a result of the prejudice encouraged by JW teachings like this video.


 +1 / -1
freemindfade
freemindfade 19 hours ago

The bible teaches that slavery is great (same way it denounces homosexuality) now it a religious group made a cartoon with a mom teaching her child in a warm and fuzzy way how there is nothing wrong with slavery. Everyone would flip out. Because its in the bible doesn't give it a pass. Freedom of religion is fine. Be in the kkk and make racist cartoons or make cartoons about gay people but why should it be shielded from criticism for what it is?
The bible is full of ethnic genocide, slavery and mistreatment of women. If anyone wants to make a cartoon about any of that I'm gonna call that out, not because they put that in the bible but because they are keeping it alive in a really distasteful way.
Cofty you keep asking how else should they deliver their message? I don't think that is the point here. The point is the message is ugly and when tm3 bellows it from a worldwide stage or when they make a cartoon it makes it more real against the backdrop of modern society and this just might wake people up . How many jolted awake by tm3? That didn't go against the bible doctrine. We need to say that this propaganda piece doesn't work in modern society. I don't care if its from the bible or Quran or whatever. Its practicing and teaching discrimination.
 +6 / -0
DJS
DJS 19 hours ago

The Dark Lords are back pedaling on the Sophia don't say gay video for a good reason. Stating that it was for internal use is a waste of time argument. If it was for internal use they would have simply shared it in the KHs, conventions and by extension in the individual homes of the dubs. The government, at least for now, wouldn't be driven to action in those venues because it is protected under our Constitution. At least for now.
The problem is they put it on the world wide web for everyone. Now it can be squarely in the government's crosshairs and it certainly is in the crosshairs of corporations and individuals. As it should be.
The Dark Lords will likely remove these types of videos and keep them confined to the local KHs and vertical supply chain to the dubs. Taking it out into the world makes it hate speech, regardless of their beliefs. It is hate speech. It is prejudicial. It is homophobic. Regardless of how sweetly they have presented the message.
 +7 / -0

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Maybe I'm Just Ignorant About the New "Anti-Gay" Video
by turtleturtle 2 days ago 146 Replies latest 9 hours ago   jw friends
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punkofnice
punkofnice 19 hours ago

I don't think the outside world is really going to be interested in the JW's stance. I say this because lots of fundie weirdos believe the same rubbish.
In truth, nobody really cares what the JWs say. People just get on with life and don't answer the door if JWs knock.
In the grand scheme of things I don't think this will gain much 'anti-JW' traction.
I might be wrong.
 +2 / -0
TheListener
TheListener 19 hours ago

Please remember I don't agree that homosexuality is a sin and I have taught my kids to respect most people's lifestyles, but in doing so I taught them that other people do view homosexuality as a sin.
FMF, my wife is a dub. She finds homosexuality disgusting. I've had to work hard to counter her influence with our kids. I do not take this subject lightly; not that I was accused of that.

Holding outdated moronic non-biblical or biblical teachings as truth and raising your children to believe them may indeed be moronic but I don't feel it's discrimination.
Isn't defending speech we don't agree with as important as defending speech we do agree with? Isn't the defending of speech/ideas/actions (that are lawful) that we don't agree with the real test of freedom and liberty?
Anyway, those videos suck. My kids watched one or two at my inlaws house and they laughed pretty hard at the cultiness of it all. I caught hell for that,since everything bad is my fault.
 +3 / -0
freemindfade
freemindfade 19 hours ago
I think generally they don't care because the witnesses historically were known to the outside as doorstep sales people. That was their biggest identifier among nonjw. With the last two years they a re becoming more visible for other things. Part or their becoming more "mainstream" in their actions.
 
TheListener
TheListener 18 hours ago

I hope the more "mainstream" they become the more sick of them people will become.
Like that other thread where the lady wore that huge jayuu.org lapel pin for her medal ceremony with Obama. WTF is up with that!
 
Simon
Simon 18 hours ago

if telling someone to sit at the back of a bus is racism, then telling someone they shouldn't have an intimate relationship is obviously homophobic. What's more of a deprivation, where you sit on a bus or whether you can have an intimate relationship?
Except that is not what they are doing. The equivalent would be them believing that black people who sit at the from of the bus won't go to heaven. It would be crazy - but not really denying anyone the right to sit where they chose.
That's why, for example, many JW parents would be willing to meet and associate with their exJW son's girlfriend and would have them in their lives but wouldn't want to meet their exJW son's boyfriend.
Technically, a JW parent shouldn't be willing to meet and associate with their exJW son's legal wife and family. So trying to make it a gay issue is smoke and mirrors - it's the "ex" part that causes the shunning.
Here is my question: IF IF IF IF I believed homosexuality, with or without sex, was against bible teaching would it be discriminatory to teach that to my kids? And if not should I have to use preapproved language vetted by the LGBTQ community?
Does everyone have to believe that homosexuality is ok and teach that to their kids?
Some would want it to be as you describe and they seem to be the ones struggling with the fundamental issue that the religious people who believe these things have the right to teach these things to their kids - as long as they are not publicly using hate speech or discriminating against people and people have had the chance to prove the video contains the latter and so far failed.
Remember the bible only comments on a sex act, not the relationship. The sin in both cases would be exactly the same: fornication (whether homosexual or heterosexual). This is an example of the type of discrimination that occurs as a result of the prejudice encouraged by JW teachings like this video.
I think that is wishful thinking - it doesn't say for instance that a same gender couple can marry as long as they don't have sex. You are also arguing that some local application of the rules is unfair as though that proves that the rules themselves are discriminatory. They are equally judgmental about different sex acts between married hetero-sexual couples although for obvious reasons, these are less likely to come to light.
Freedom of religion is fine. Be in the kkk and make racist cartoons or make cartoons about gay people but why should it be shielded from criticism for what it is?
They shouldn't escape criticism for it. But the criticism will be more powerful and convincing if it is kept accurate.
Making claims about the video containing hate speech and discrimination just weakens the message because when people watch the video and don't see those things, they may then dismiss this and other criticisms. An opportunity lost.
At the end of the day, they have their beliefs and it's clearly based on the bible. We might not agree with these beliefs, but they have the right to hold, teach and preach them. If anything, they should be used as an example and the direction that other, far more vocal, religious groups that do want to discriminate against people should be encouraged to move.
 +2 / -1
scotsman
scotsman 18 hours ago

This non ex-JW thought it a cruel and damaging message:
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/as-a-gay-child-of-fundamentalist-christians-i-was-horrified-by-the-new-jehovahs-witnesses-video-a7014916.html

Presumably he's over-reacting too.
I'm sorry that some of us have upset the hierarchy of criticisms that we're allowed to lob at the JWs, I'll climb back into my box :wink:
 +3 / -2
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 18 hours ago

Because both the OT and the NT explicitly condemn gay sex. There is no sensible way to get around that.
There are plenty of sensible Christians who do interpret the Bible that way. Why shouldn't JWs join them?
If the pressure becomes great enough they probably will.
 +2 / -1
Simon
Simon 18 hours ago

This non ex-JW thought it a cruel and damaging message. Presumably he's over-reacting too.
Not an exJW no, but "a gay child of fundamentalist Christians" so probably an even more extreme upbringing and belief system so no wonder he / she finds it so damaging. I'm not surprised some things are triggers for some people if it reminds them of their own past circumstances and they project their own issues because of it. But some individuals outrage isn't proof that something is necessarily outrageous.
So what is your solution? Should there be a government approved list of beliefs? Should parents be told what they can and can't tell their children? Who will decide what is on this list? How will it be enforced?
Basically, "OMG, this video is so terrible we should ... [do what exactly?]".
Use a hashtag? If that is all it warrants then it makes my argument that it's not as bad as some are trying to portray it.
I'll climb back into my box
I guess you are trying to imply you are somehow being oppressed and not allowed to share your opinion?
There are plenty of sensible Christians who do interpret the Bible that way. Why shouldn't JWs join them?
So the plan is to reform the WTS and make them more acceptable to people so they can prosper and thrive?

 +1 / -1
Giordano
Giordano 17 hours ago

The bible is a corrupted book.....totally unreliable and inconsistent. It really doesn't matter if the WTBT$ thinks it must subscribe to it's anti Gay policy because it's in the bible. The WTBT$ makes it's own rules and their level of inconsistency on this matter and others rivals the Mormons.
The slavery issue puts a stop to this argument. Every religion can and will change it's beliefs....... if not to do so would bring about it's destruction.
The WTBT$ is a corrupt construct and it's ability to shuck and duck it's humane responsibility makes it's dogma totally unreliable.
We left it because it sucks.

The Video we have been discussing is corrupt. It demonstrates an anti homosexual bias aimed at children. While it does not use inflammatory language it delivers and all too simple message that reaffirms a sick twisted point of view for those who can not adjust to the differences among humans...... be it skin color, appearance or sexual preferences among consenting adults.

 +5 / -0
konceptual99
konceptual99 17 hours ago

There are plenty of sensible Christians who do interpret the Bible that way. Why shouldn't JWs join them?
If the pressure becomes great enough they probably will.
Very, very doubtful this would ever happen. Whilst there is a very slim chance they could sell something to Western Witnesses at some point in the future, don't forget that there are large contingents of Witnesses in countries where homosexuality is still fighting be be legal let alone tolerated or accepted. They would never risk the schism.
Jehovah's Witnesses have stuck to their guns for years on things like a global flood, 607 maths, only 6000 years of human presence on the earth, anti evolution, literal acceptance of things like Lot's wife becoming a pillar of salt and Jonah living in the belly of a fish for three days.
They have never even shown the slightest of signs that they would move to accepting heterosexual activity outside of marriage let alone accepting something like gay marriage. They can't even face up to trying to present some loving encouragement to young Witnesses who may be gay, it's still basically pray for it to go away.
Don't forget as well that the Witnesses don't care what the world says if the membership are happy with the status quo. Right now 99% of Witnesses think the latest video and Awake are the most moderate and reasonable pronouncements on the subject ever. The GB only promote change when it suits commercial interests and this subject does not touch them commercially at all.
 +2 / -0

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Maybe I'm Just Ignorant About the New "Anti-Gay" Video
by turtleturtle 2 days ago 146 Replies latest 9 hours ago   jw friends
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Simon
Simon 17 hours ago

Not only doesn't it hurt them, it helps them - as society is moving towards more acceptance of gay marriage etc... then they are now placed to be "conservative christian lite" - all the bible based views and belief that god will judge people but not quite so outspoken and openly trying to discriminate against people.
They are catering for their market segment by providing the product that segment wants to buy without being identical to their competitors.
 +1 / -0
Gentledawn
Gentledawn 17 hours ago


 +1 / -0
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 16 hours ago

Very, very doubtful this would ever happen. Whilst there is a very slim chance they could sell something to Western Witnesses at some point in the future, don't forget that there are large contingents of Witnesses in countries where homosexuality is still fighting be be legal let alone tolerated or accepted. They would never risk the schism.
I totally see why it seems unlikely. JWs have along track record of being totally opposed to gay rights. But consider the huge shift of public opinion that has occurred. Personally I was not particularly in favour of gay marriage a decade ago. I thought it was a weird idea more than anything. Then I found out a local brother was gay and what he went through. I thought a lot about the issue and concluded there was no rational or ethical reason to deny gay people the exact same rights as everyone else. Many other people are apparently coming to the same conclusion at the same time. The change is absolutely huge. In the United States it changed from something like 40% support to 60% support in around a decade. And the trend continues. Even among Jehovah's Witnesses the trend is toward acceptance of gay people. If that trend continues it will reach a point where most people think JWs should change, including JWs themselves! At that point what will the GB do? It's like an irresistible force hitting an immovable object, but something has to give.
 +1 / -0
konceptual99
konceptual99 15 hours ago

The trend should be for more tolerance simply because younger people are presented that view by society in general. I read my daughter's answer to a questionnaire on this very subject that was presented in her citizenship class at school - it was 100% what you would expect any tolerant person to put down.
What is clever about the video and Awake article however, is that they present an argument for limiting that tolerance that resonates perfectly with Witnesses and allows them to feel safe and happy in demonstrating a relative tolerance. At the same time, the experiences of gay people, especially young ones born into the religion, are completely hidden from view so no one gets the other side of the story unless they look for it.
The WTS does not need gay people. Witnesses have a position that prevents no one from being gay or getting a marriage - they just can't be Witnesses - but how many people does that actually affect?
Witnesses have proven time and time again at how capable they are at instantly shunning family members and former friends. What makes gay rights any more likely to provoke change from the ground up?
The GB only act when they have no choice and there are several larger issues that will 99% never provoke the mass walk out that it would take to force change. Gay rights is several slots down IMHO on that list.
 +2 / -0
Gentledawn
Gentledawn 15 hours ago

The real trick is this: They're not sending the JW kids out to directly convert (in this case) the homosexual parents.
No, they're having a child of a JW go to the gay couple's child and hold out the fake-ass hope of petting pandas and lions in a paradise. After the 'unbelieving' child gets baited into believing the more benign nonsense, then the fear-mongering will be implanted next.  
What will that child do? Likely go home and ask/tell their 2 mommies that they're going to burn in hell get killed during armageddon. That poor child is gonna have anxiety they wouldn't otherwise have had, foisted upon them by the JW classmate.  

 +1 / -0
scotsman
scotsman 13 hours ago

I've never once said the video should be banned. I've just said its homophobic and it should be exposed as such.
Some people get quite hysterical and hand wavey over the use of the word homophobia.
Oxford Dictionaries definition
Dislike of or prejudice against homosexual people.
 +1 / -0
Simon
Simon 13 hours ago

Sigh, you still really don't get it?
The video never even says "we don't like gay people" so it doesn't even meet your very relaxed definition of the term. I know you are desperate for the WTS to have produced a video that is actually homophobic but they haven't. I think they are smarter than to do something so dumb.
The only people getting remotely hysterical are the ones who have their claim that it's promoting discrimination questioned in any way.
It seems strange and contradictory to claim that it is both homophobic but not needing to be banned.
It's worthy of some social condemnation and warrants some hashtags ... but nothing more.
 
steve2
steve2 13 hours ago

Sign from me too. Gentledawn continues the practise of extending the scenario way beyond what the video says. Sohpie will say this, Sophie will say that and on and on. "Then the fear-mongering will start".
It is not homophobic because no dislike of homosexuals as people is expressed. Indeed Sophie's mother stated, "People can change". Sure, that is freighted with a heap of ignorance about sexual orientation - but that is another topic. If JWs stated, "Homosexuals are abominable and are beyond help and we need to keep away from them" (as stated by some of the more extreme religious groups such as Westboro Baptist Church, THAT would homophobic. Excuse me for noting that you have to go beyond what the video states to even get a taint of homophobia.
You will have a devil of a job successfully charging the makers of this video with homophobia - although as I stated earlier, I can see how it could be construed as such.
That said, the video still sends out an unhealthy and distorted message about human sexuality as based on the JWs literal reading of Biblical texts. So I am no apologists for JWs' uninformed views on the topic.
Oh, and before posters come back with the view that the Bible does not condemn modern conceptions of homosexuality, please note:
Being a gay male myself, I am very familiar with liberal Christians' apologetics in this regard. As for Jonathan and David, for all the kilometres of print on this allegedly over-heated mateship, there is not a shred of evidence that these two hunky men ever bedded each other.
 +2 / -0
scotsman
scotsman 13 hours ago

Is homophobia a crime?
If the "video still sends out an unhealthy and distorted message about human sexuality" I'd say it is designed to incite prejudice. It's not a crime.
 
Simon
Simon 12 hours ago

I can see why some groups want to do the "reformation" thing with the bible and re-cast Jonathan and David as a gay couple (although it doesn't really fit with the David character IMO) and I'm all for that - if people can strike parts of the bible out and convince people it's justified then it makes it much more palatable. Really though, the whole book should just be thrown away, maybe one day ...
Personally, I just don't understand why anyone who is gay would ever want to belong to any religion who's holy book is so clearly anti-gay. I always wonder if there's ever been black people who wanted to join the KKK (I know that sounds silly, but there were jewish nazis).
I know the situation is different when you are brought up in the religion but at some point everyone has choices to make, I wonder if it's just familiarity and conditioning that makes people want to chose a group that doesn't want to chose them back.
Not forgetting that it's a religion that doesn't chose lots of people for various other reasons too.
 

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Maybe I'm Just Ignorant About the New "Anti-Gay" Video
by turtleturtle 2 days ago 146 Replies latest 9 hours ago   jw friends
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redvip2000
redvip2000 12 hours ago

Looks like we are getting lost in who is the victim in relation to the video.
The victims here are not gays. The point of the push back against the video is not from the angle of being homophobic. The real victims here are the kids that are indoctrinated right from the outset by being taught that being gay is wrong, immoral, unacceptable, deserving of punishment, deserving of death one could say.
 +5 / -0
Simon
Simon 12 hours ago

The real victims here are the kids that are indoctrinated right from the outset by being taught that being gay is wrong, immoral, unacceptable, deserving of punishment, deserving of death one could say.
That's a good way of looking at it and the most accurate summation of the issue.
 +3 / -0
steve2
steve2 11 hours ago
Scotsman, the distorted view of sexuality is not exclusive to homosexuality. Look at the proscriptions around oral and anal sex within marriage and the proscription against pre-marital sex. You have toi draw a long bow to see homophobia where more accurately sexualphobia exists.
 +3 / -1
Simon
Simon 11 hours ago

You have to draw a long bow to see homophobia where more accurately sexualphobia exists.
It's not just sex, the list of the uninvited is quite long. I'm pretty sure most people will be on it for one reason or another (I'm pretty sure I've reviled a few things):
Or do you not know that unrighteous people will not inherit God’s Kingdom? Do not be misled. Those who are sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, men who submit to homosexual acts, men who practice homosexuality, thieves, greedy people, drunkards, revilers, and extortioners will not inherit God’s Kingdom.
Yes, homosexuality gets a double mention ... but it's certainly not limited to that (although to come full circle, it's what the video was about so obviously their target).
 
sparrowdown
sparrowdown 11 hours ago

The bible and WT are anti-gay clearly, but not homophobic? WTH?
I'm soooo confuuuused 😟
 +1 / -0
cofty
cofty 10 hours ago

Homosexuality is an excellent illustration of the difference between absolute morality based on the dictates of a deity and objective morality based on humanist principles.
JWs are committed to the former. If god says something is bad then that settles it. No reasons are necessary since it is assumed god knows best. It is an infantilising worldview.
Secular ethics demand reasons. Something can only be judged as bad if it can be shown to have harmful consequences.
In many instances these two ways of thinking about morality coincide. Israel didn't really need a stone tablet to know that murder, theft and adultery were not conducive to a prosperous society.
Homosexuality is a conspicuous example of where these two cultures collide. On the one hand god says unequivocally that homosexuality is sinful, but on the other there is no rational reason for that prohibition.
Increased acceptance of gay relationships in society will have an opposite effect on the Watchtower. They pride themselves on being "no part of the world".
A lot of the comments in this and other threads have been trying to prove that JW's opposition to gay relationships is harmful. Of course it is, but to a biblical literalist it makes perfect sense. They are not looking for ways to fit in with the changing values of "the world". They actually believe they are on the moral high ground on this point and they will continue to attract followers who agree.
 +4 / -0
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 10 hours ago

Increased acceptance of gay relationships in society will have an opposite effect on the Watchtower. They pride themselves on being "no part of the world".
What about increasing acceptance among JWs themselves? Up from 12% to 16% between 2007 and 2014. What happens if/when more JWs approve than oppose?

 
cofty
cofty 10 hours ago
The Watchtower Society is a dictatorship masquerading as a theocracy not a democracy.
 +1 / -0
scotsman
scotsman 10 hours ago

Heavy sigh.
children raised as JWs are victims because they are being taught to be prejudiced. Not just of homosexuality but a whole host of other things. The JWs have a distorted view of a vast range of things beyond sexuality.
But this cartoon is about teaching prejudice against homosexuals, not adulterers, theives or gluttons. I'm not shocked by it, I've never said I was outraged, nor have I said it should be banned (I've not even waved my hands our flounced).
i stand by the statement that this is cartoon designed to instill prejudice against homosexuals in JW children and I think that's homophobic. I think the Bible's homophobic too.
I sincerely hope you will survive me thinking differently from you.
 +1 / -0
sparrowdown
sparrowdown 10 hours ago
Can someone put together a focus group of varied demographic children to watch the video and ask them what they think the video is saying? ....Anyone..please.
 

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Maybe I'm Just Ignorant About the New "Anti-Gay" Video
by turtleturtle 2 days ago 146 Replies latest 9 hours ago   jw friends
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slimboyfat
slimboyfat 10 hours ago

It's not a democracy no, but you miss the point.
Societal and even governmental pressure may come to bear on JWs and other religious groups to stop victimising gay people. You have said JWs won't change despite such pressure because it would destroy the organisation. My point is: that is only true if a majority of JWs still oppose accepting gay people. If that is no longer true, and a majority support gay people, there would no longer any reason to supposer the change will destroy the organisation. In fact at some point the pressure to change may exceed the pressure not to change. What they choose to do at that point will be intersting, if we get there.
 +0 / -1
cofty
cofty 10 hours ago

Societal and even governmental pressure may come to bear on JWs and other religious groups to stop victimising gay people.
So they will relish the "persecution".
I don't believe there is much move towards acceptance of gay rights based on a survey. I think that just shows how many nominal JWs only identify as such to maintain family relationships.
 
cofty
cofty 10 hours ago

I think the Bible's homophobic too - Scotsman
And the pope is a catholic.
 
fulltimestudent
fulltimestudent 9 hours ago

Dont want to use the word 'homophobic' in connection with the slick, but silly JW video?
Then try a word, Joe Kort (a behavioural therapist) suggests. What is that word? Its "microaggression". It was coined (apparently) by psychiatrist and Harvard University professor, Chester M. Pierce in 1970 to describe insults and dismissals he regularly witnessed non-black Americans inflict on African Americans.
The WT blurb writers (as I remember) were rather skilled in the use of 'microaggressive' words. From that perspective, just to say, "Jehovah does'nt like......." can be microaggressive.
Kort gives some examples of what he sees as "microaggression against 'same sex attracted people.*'"
*"Have you ever had real sex?"
*"...I'm not being homophobic, you're being too sensitive..."
*"Why don't you ever wear dresses?"
*"So....who's the man in the relationship?"
*"That's totally cool with me as long as I can watch"
* "You are so Jack on "Will and Grace" or Cam on "Modern Family"
 ----------------------------
BTW, somewhat lost in all this, though discussed a little, is the difference between 'attraction' and 'acts.' OR, as Kort sees it, as quoted in the NYT (March 20, 2014), the difference between 'behaviour' and 'identity'. Which was possibly a reference to his 2014 book, " Is My Husband Gay, Straight, or Bi?: A Guide for Women Concerned about their Men."
On which topic, my same sex attracted friends often comment that, at the gay beats around Sydney, the number of cars that have baby seats fitted, is amazing.
http://www.joekort.com/
--------------------------------------------------------
*I'd rather use same sex attracted, than to use the word 'gay' or the word 'homosexual.'
http://www.joekort.com/

 
cofty
cofty 9 hours ago

Please not microaggressions!
The weapon of whiny third wave campus feminists.
 +4 / -0
Simon
Simon 9 hours ago

You have said JWs won't change despite such pressure because it would destroy the organisation. My point is: that is only true if a majority of JWs still oppose accepting gay people. If that is no longer true, and a majority support gay people, there would no longer any reason to supposer the change will destroy the organisation.
There is also no reason to suppose that the change will happen. I doubt very much that the majority of JWs actively support and call for shunning - in fact, I would bet that 90%+ (easily) are for allowing things to be more relaxed. As long as 12 guys at bethel think it's in their favour to keep it then it stays.
It's not a democracy and even an overwhelming majority counts for nothing. They are sheep in more than one figurative sense.
The weapon of whiny third wave campus feminists.
I agree, they seem to be one of the weapons of choice in the politics of offence.
If people ask a question, it's the wrong question and insulting. If people don't ask questions, they are being ignored and not included. If people ask the identical question they would ask anyone else then their specific unique needs are not being addressed.
Reality is, people are awkward, especially with the unknown and say dumb shit all the time. It's not an attack unless people are determined to turn it into one.
 
steve2
steve2 9 hours ago

Microaggression? I first heard that egregious word decades ago and thought it had subsequently long dropped of the commonsense radar.
Microaggression is a nifty retort adjective for people primed for being offended. It's a word that does itself out of a job by over-emphasizing "micro". Coined back in 1970, I'm not surprised it never caught on.
As others long before me noted, the examples provided by Pierce seem adequately described by the adjective, "Insensitive" than any form of aggression, no matter how small or "micro".
Now, back to the real world.
 +1 / -0

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What were you never going to do in "This system" But did it?
by karter a day ago 32 Replies latest 4 hours ago   jw friends
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karter
karter a day ago

Finish school.
Finish my Apprenticeship (Why are you doing that brother Karter you will never finish it in this system).
Buy a house.
Pay the house off.
Karter.

 +5 / -0
Magnum
Magnum a day ago

Get a driver's license (according to JWs in early 70's)
Finish high school (according to JWs in early 70's)
Get as old as I am (mid-fifties)
Own a house
Have a full-time job
Quit pioneering
 +4 / -0
TheLiberator
TheLiberator a day ago
Have grandchildren.
 +2 / -0
kairos
kairos a day ago
Car racing since 2004 and becoming a professional musician.
 +2 / -0
a watcher
a watcher a day ago
Grow old.

 +5 / -0
karter
karter a day ago

Kairos,What car do you race??
 
kairos
kairos a day ago
Porsches, VW's and a Ford.
 +2 / -0
MarkofCane
MarkofCane a day ago

Become an apostate

 +5 / -0
Simon
Simon a day ago

Go to high school (never mind university)
Get married, have kids
Leave a cult
Emigrate
Smoke pot
Parachute jump
Find Jesus
Torture Jesus until he hands over the chocolate eggs
Learn the difference between Jesus and the easter bunny
Make random shit up on the internet
 +7 / -0
karter
karter a day ago
Kairos,"Karter" i race Go-Karts.

 +3 / -0

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What were you never going to do in "This system" But did it?
by karter a day ago 32 Replies latest 4 hours ago   jw friends
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Cangie
Cangie a day ago
Retire. According to the May 1969 Awake, I wasn't supposed to graduate in "this system." But I did---one month later. I also got married, had 2 children, owned 2 houses and 2 co-op apartments, divorced, survived through tough times, became a grandma twice,, learned TTATT and got out!

 +7 / -0
naja
naja a day ago
My parents were told I would not even enter school in the 1950ies. Now I have grand children, the oldest 10 years of age.
 +5 / -1
Anders Andersen
Anders Andersen a day ago

Too fresh out but some things on my list of new possibilities:
◦Parachute jump
◦Get a tattoo
◦Travel the world / emigrate
◦Have a time consuming hobby
◦Do time consuming home maintenance and like it
◦Enjoy earning money
◦Donate to real charities
◦Volunteer for real charities
◦Like all people without prejudices
◦...
 +5 / -0
OnTheWayOut
OnTheWayOut a day ago

I came in as a young adult, so it was post 1975 but still within that generation understanding that babies from 1914 would still be alive when the end came in the 20th century.
So I was never going to get a career, just keep doing jobs that get me by until Armageddon. I started seeking a career in 1995 when they decided that the "generation" wasn't what they said it was. I became a firefighter in 2000.
I was never going to travel on many vacations, but I do that now. So does my JW wife.
 +2 / -0
FayeDunaway
FayeDunaway a day ago

I was never going to leave. I was going to stick it out no matter what, despite my doubts, cuz I never wanted to disappoint my parents. But finally I decided I had to get out and live according to my own beliefs, and let my kids follow their own paths instead of sticking around this cult until their lives were limited by it. It was time to finally grow up.
I'm SO glad I did it, even tho the process was hard. I never could have imagined myself here 10 years ago.
 +2 / -0
Lieu
Lieu a day ago

Go to college
Retire from a profession / Get retirement benefits & pay
Get 2 tattoos at the same time (breast cancer awareness benefit) One of the tats is a smurf lol.
Buy a 4 dr SUV and not ever take it in FS
Race someone in my old sports car on a major highway going about 180 mph (no shake). The spedometer went to 225.
Have fun shooting at a gun range.
Send money to real and solid charities (like doctors without borders)
Post on this site.
 +5 / -1
LongHairGal
LongHairGal a day ago

KARTER:
I was supposedly never going to Retire.

A Witness who did my taxes years ago noted that I contributed to an IRA. They very smugly told me: "you'll never see that money". Well, I'm almost two years retired and that JW passed away probably over two decades ago.
OTWO:
At least you smartened up after 1995 and got serious about a decent job.  Other JWs probably wished they did as well.  I always HAD a decent job (which was why I was viewed negatively).  The religion was selling poverty for single women.  Well, I wasn't buying it.

 +7 / -0
Xanthippe
Xanthippe a day ago

See the Sistine Chapel in the Vatican
Be taught meditation by Buddhist monks
Have gay friends
Have a child
Get a degree
Visit my MP
See Paris,Venice, Athens, New York
Volunteer for a mental health charity
Enjoy reading philosophy
Laugh at dirty jokes
Visit a Spiritualist Church and not be afraid
Get drunk
 +5 / -0
zeb
zeb a day ago

raise a family.
pay out a mortgage.
go to college
sit by people who were dying
realise I was not wrong a lot of the time but the wt was... now proven.
 +3 / -0
Ucantnome
Ucantnome a day ago
Post on a web site like this
 +2 / -0

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What were you never going to do in "This system" But did it?
by karter a day ago 32 Replies latest 4 hours ago   jw friends
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LoveUniHateExams
LoveUniHateExams a day ago

Smoke a fine Cuban cigar
Smoke weed
Go to university
 +1 / -0
ctrwtf
ctrwtf 21 hours ago

Get my entire family out of a mind control doomsday cult.
Travel
Enjoy a fine cigar
Vote and donate to political campaigns
Send my kids to college
Celebrate Christmas
Not judge gay family members
Watch my kids play sports
Get a couple of tattoos
Enjoy the fine musings of those of you who post on this site.
 +4 / -0
tiki
tiki 21 hours ago
As a kid in the fifties...never going to graduate high school...did. No need for a career or meaningful job...some nice brother will come along and you'll get married and he'll support you (???) ...didn't turn out that way...I hated all the nerdy dumb jerks. Then 75...well rack up your credit card debt...no problem..all of it will be gone when they throw their silver and gold in the streets. Soon, very soon. Then it was where else can you go...we have the truth. Hung in there...no need for insurance...pension...you'll surely never reach retirement in this system....hah, yeah right. Gradually got sick to death of the same rhetoric and faded into the bright apostate light. And I always figured that since I was no good as soon as I saw Armageddon close I'd kill myself rather than allowing the heavenly forces to rub me out. Figured I'd be about 50.
 +1 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot 16 hours ago

Grow up.
(physically, anyway)
 +1 / -0
Doubtfully Yours
Doubtfully Yours 16 hours ago

Education.
Job that pays the bills plus.
Buy/pay off/buy more real estate.
Grow old, and, yes, we will all die with still nothing coming to pass.
WTBTS is a false prophet along with many others.
DY
 +2 / -0
gma-tired2
gma-tired2 15 hours ago
Grow old. I love watching granddaughters living a life without how does it look held over their every decision.
 +2 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot 15 hours ago

Have multiple sexual partn...
x
...oh, wait, I still haven't really done that.
 +1 / -0
Simon Templar
Simon Templar 15 hours ago

Get out of high school. Now I am a few years away from retirement.
 
FayeDunaway
FayeDunaway 12 hours ago
Lieu has a smurf tattoo!!!! Omg I love that :grinning:.
 +1 / -0
sparky1
sparky1 12 hours ago

Vidiot...............Do you mean at the same time?
 +1 / -0

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What were you never going to do in "This system" But did it?
by karter a day ago 32 Replies latest 4 hours ago   jw friends
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MisterP
MisterP 12 hours ago

Watch porn
Own a Jesus action figure
Get twatted on every Illegal drug available
DJ to 30,000 people in Ibiza
Go to university at 40 and get an honours degree in maths and physics.
Pretty much everything I have ever done since being disfellowshipped in 1993....And have loved every moment of my life since :smile:
 +2 / -0
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 11 hours ago
I reread a letter today that I received 40 years ago today. Never thought I would read it again 40 years later in this system.
 +2 / -0
daringhart13
daringhart13 4 hours ago

Honestly?
Enjoy sex with many more women than 'one'
 

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The smug arrogance of "having the truth".
by stuckinarut2 a day ago 22 Replies latest 5 hours ago   jw experiences
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stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 a day ago

Has anyone noticed that witnesses (from the top down) seem to have a quiet form of smug arrogance toward all non witnesses?
Perhaps it comes from being told how "special and unique" they are but they end up looking down on all normal members of the community because they are not witnesses.
So any form of "love" they show those in the territory is also limited as long as they accept the message...otherwise they are viewed contemptuously as "worldly" and therefore of little value...after all,they will be destroyed right?
 +14 / -0
MarkofCane
MarkofCane a day ago


And then I would leave them the magazines.

 +10 / -0
TheLiberator
TheLiberator a day ago
Sad to say, I was one of those smug jerks. I know exactly what you are saying. Now as a "new" Christian, I realize I am just one of billions of sinners. I am no different. I have bad thoughts like anyone else. I needed and still need to show true love to people. Now that I have been stripped of all my "badges" and "stripes" ( "theocratic privileges") it is easy to see who you really are. Just a pile of dust and a shadow.
 +15 / -0
ShirleyW
ShirleyW a day ago

stuckinarut2 - you must not have been in da troof very long if you even have to ask that question !!
 +4 / -0
compound complex
compound complex a day ago

You are correct, stuckinarut2:
I believe it's because so many Scriptures were applied to us collectively and congregationally: we are theatrical spectacle to men and angels; the other sheep have a privileged relationship with the anointed remnant; the angels are given a watch over us; he who touches His people touches the eyeball of Jehovah; etc.
Because I knew so many of the anointed, whom I cherished, I felt Jehovah had a special interest in me. Was I arrogant and "better" than worldlings? No, but I honestly felt Jehovah selected me to lead out of darkness the people whose paths crossed mine. I still wonder about prayers answered regarding my ministry.
I feel quite insignificant now . . .
CoCo
 +4 / -0
Dunedain
Dunedain a day ago

This is SOOO TRUE. I noticed this from a very early age, about the people in this religion/cult. Yes, its true that not all in the Borg are this way, but sadly, it is the most powerful, and influential ones that are usually this way.
The sad thing is, that this ARROGANCE, and the better than those "below" them attitude, is not just reserved for "worldly" people, but for members in their own congregations that are deemed "less spiritual" than others.
This false sense of superiority is what drives Elders to disfellowship the "unworthy". They know better, and they know more, and they in turn believe they can read a fellow humans HEART CONDITION.
Well, the real truth is, THEY KNOW NOTHING. They are arrogant in their own ignorance. They are "geniuses" in a CULT that is actually, blinding them. They have a sense of entitlement, but the fools do not even realize they are being blindly misdirected by fellow, arrogant, blinded, HUMAN BEINGS.
It would almost be poetically comical, if there were, unfortunately, not so many people being hurt by the arrogant idiotic humans of this CULT. Such ashame.

 +9 / -0
Dunedain
Dunedain a day ago
Also, if these IDIOTS really, and smugly believe that the work they are doing in the ministry is saving, and or judging eternally the fellow humans who listen to THEM, or not. Then they might as well call themselves MURDERERS, not saviors.
 +2 / -0
Divergent
Divergent a day ago
This smug arrogance is also applied toward others WITHIN the congregation. If you are not pioneering, not a MS, not an elder / elder's wife, not a Bethelite, etc. then you would be looked down upon! (Unless you are very rich, of course. Double standards always apply!)
 +11 / -0
alanv
alanv a day ago
I was a witness for over 25 years. I was very smug, I admit it and I am now very ashamed of the attitude I had then. It didnt matter what news came on the tv, I would just smile and say, it just shows how God needs to destroy all the bad things on earth. Same with meeting people on the doors. Most people did not want to talk, so I just smugly thought it will be their funeral.
 +7 / -0
zeb
zeb a day ago
In some cases ..yes. and for many years I was very critical.
 +6 / -0

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The smug arrogance of "having the truth".
by stuckinarut2 a day ago 22 Replies latest 5 hours ago   jw experiences
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TTWSYF
TTWSYF 20 hours ago

Yes, I too have experienced this behavior from JWs. Lots of confidence and self rightousness when they first engage you on the bible and Jehovah.
When I became educated about the JW faith and would poke holes in their doctrine, the smug arrogance would turn on a dime into meek humility.
 +4 / -0
sparky1
sparky1 19 hours ago
To be fair and balanced, Jehovah's Witnesses have not 'cornered the market' on smugness and arrogance. It seems to me that any fundamentalist religion that feels they have the 'truth' appears to breed these qualities in their adherents. I work in a store in a small town and have contact with all sorts of people. I deal with some Mennonites and strict fundamentalist Baptists that are just as smug, self righteous, arrogant, 'holy', judgmental and stand offish as any Jehovah's Witness that I have ever met. Maybe it is part of the 'human condition' to feel superior to others when you feel that you have been blessed with the 'TRUTH'?
 +9 / -0
Londo111
Londo111 18 hours ago

And sometimes lip service was given to "we are not better" than non-JWs, but...
It was classic doublethink.
 +5 / -0
ToesUp
ToesUp 17 hours ago

All you have to do is listen to Anthony Morris. You talk about smug and arrogant! Not a humble bone in his body. The zone meeting a year and a half ago really put the nail in the coffin for us. The part about 23 year old men who are not MS's. He stated that these men are not good marriage material. Why would anyone stick around where they are not wanted. That is just one of the many things that prompted our fade.
One thing that we have noticed with some JW's. They do think that they are better than the average "worldly" person BUT if some find out they have money or something that will benefit THEM, then they will make some concessions. So many "gypsies" in the cult. These ones are looking for the next person who can put money in their pocket, provide housing or a job. These "gypsies" are typically need greaters, pioneers or Bethelites.
 +5 / -0
DesirousOfChange
DesirousOfChange 11 hours ago

They think they are better because they have been "chosen" by Jehovah (hand picked) to be his witnesses. There is even a scripture they apply to this.
Image result for isn't that special
Doc

 +3 / -0
problemaddict 2
problemaddict 2 11 hours ago

Londo nailed it.
WT has the market cornered not on smugness, but on the doublethink in regards to smugness. On one hand.....be smug as hell. On the other, act pious. that way you can have your smug and eat it too.
I was once like this if I am being honest with myself. Not that much.....but it was there.

 +3 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 11 hours ago

Yes, well said londo and problemaddict 2!
It is the hypocrisy of being smug, yet saying they are not that stands out...
 +3 / -0
sparrowdown
sparrowdown 11 hours ago

I 'm shocked JWs...smug? ...arrogant?....special???
Well they are chosen by the most high himself and will live on in a paradise earth while everyone else (including gay people) die horribly and will not be mourned or buried.
C'moooon, if you can't do the happy-smug-arrogant dance over that then when can ya!! Give JWs a break already!
(Joke)
 +4 / -0
Lieu
Lieu 10 hours ago

I think it comes from constantly being told to dislike or hate "the world" everything and just about everyone in it. Keep your kids away from non JW kids or "bad influence". Don't look for higher education or "bad decision, waste of time". Higher paying job? Bad, money loving materialistic "weak" one!
It's all bad and below "our" standards. So sure, most are gonna think they're better than "worldly" people because those people are said over and over again to be "below standards".
Internally, I think it comes from the same thing. 'We were picked to be elders because we're above average and the others are only average.' They're told they are "more qualified" than the others among us. It's an "I'm not the one being decided on, I'm the one doing the deciding" thought process. Plus that whole, I know stuff you'll never get to know attitude that adds a level of arrogance.
 +3 / -0
aboveusonlysky
aboveusonlysky 9 hours ago

A few years ago a c.o. gave an illustration about how worldly people hang on their walls photographs of what they consider the most important moments of their life, like their wedding or university graduation. He said really they should have a photograph of the last time a jw knocked on their door as that was the most important thing that had ever happened to them.
At the time I thought it was a brilliant illustration, now I think what a load of shit.
 +4 / -0

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The smug arrogance of "having the truth".
by stuckinarut2 a day ago 22 Replies latest 5 hours ago   jw experiences
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Introvert 2
Introvert 2 8 hours ago

I have known about JW since I was a kid. It did seem to make a lot of sense at first, so as an adult I decided to take them up on their 'free home bible study' offer. As many have said before at least I would learn about Scripture. Sure there were lots of things that didn't hold water like the date setting, FDS, God's only channel, anointed and all that fluff but older seemingly mature well respected individuals would say that I was a spiritual babe and to keep studying I would eventually increase in faith and understanding. Of course they would say this with their patented air of superiority and overweight smugness so I decided to go along with it for awhile with ever present doubts in the back of my mind. ( I was basically hoping for the end to come before I tired out and gave up )
I never quite fit in and got out of dodge a few years later after never having been able to measure up to their fake superficial 'Best Life Ever'™ I'm too straightforward and neurotic to maintain such a fake level of piety. Pretty sure I'm more honest than many of them.
 +3 / -0
Magnum
Magnum 6 hours ago

I've been referring on this site for several years to the smugness and arrogance and condescension of JWs.
When they try to "help" us faders, usually they're condescending. They come across as if we're weak, pitiful, lost souls, and they're in a higher, saved position. They reach down from their superior position to lift us from our lowly, weak state. They're trying to "encourage" us. They are so full of strength and courage and they want to impart some of that to us.
I recently got a message from a JW higher-up, and he referred to a desire to "encourage" me. I was thinking "you punk, you haven't got a tenth of the courage I have."
 +3 / -0
skin
skin 5 hours ago
The only knowledge most JW's know about the world is what we get told at the meetings about the way the world is, thinks, etc. The power of having to believe everything we hear at the meetings gives (some) JW's the idea that they know more about non witness's (worldly people) than these non witness's know about themselves, and because witness's then believe they know more, they then take on this smug arrogance, and are very open about it in front of other people. You can then record time for this behavior.


 

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Could they make not donating a disfellowshipping offence?
by purrpurr 21 hours ago 14 Replies latest 7 hours ago   jw friends
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purrpurr
purrpurr 21 hours ago

I'm wondering at how far the Borg could go in begging for money? Their halls are already resembling the"money changers in the temple". As they get sued more and more due to their pedophilic paradise their coffers will be ever more drained. I wonder then what lengths they will go to to get money out of their window cleaning followers? Will there be an entrance fee to the hall? Or will they threaten to disfellowship those who don't donate?
How far could they go do you think?
 +2 / -0
freddo
freddo 21 hours ago

Naaah! Social pressure is better. Or some goosestepping little secretary reminding everyone every so often to give more, more more.
 +3 / -0
James Jack
James Jack 21 hours ago

You would loose 3/4 of the Congregation, at least in our case! We only have 5 out of 70 main contributors( I know because I'm the Accounts Servant).
An Elder asked me recently; "Why do You think our Accounts have run out of money?". I said: "Only 2 Elders out of 7 contribute each month and in the past 2 years, only 1 of our MS out of 6 has. We rarely get Cash, we don't accept Cards, so I base my answer on the Checks we receive".
Our last 2 Local Needs talks have been about donating, those that contribute, just donated more.
 +9 / -0
ttdtt
ttdtt 20 hours ago
We should keep our disdain and speculation for the Org based in some reality please.

 +1 / -2
sowhatnow
sowhatnow 20 hours ago

I dont know how anyone would know, isn't the box in the back for anyone to drop in any amount?

I rarely had funds to donate. when they start requiring a check or some form to trace the donator, so they can keep track, then that is exactly what was condemned by them, the passing of the plate....

I know that my moms cong [rural and low income] was pretty much reliant on the few elders and men who worked at the local chemical plants, and other decent paying rare jobs. they made the most money, and pretty much had to support the hall themselves. which is why when the khall loan was paid off, they actually could take a breather and save for a new roof........ which i dont think they even have yet.

years ago, a C.O. came along and told them that anyone with rotating shift jobs that were missing a few meetings, had to get new jobs, lol.
no one in their right mind is going to quit a good paying job, with health benefits.that they have had for years. when you have years in a company.... some at age 50 something were supposed to just 'go out' and find new jobs in an area with nothing more than retail! loose their retirements,lol. the hall would have ceased to exist.

since a few of them were only ten years away from retirement, they stepped down. this was a repeat to many halls in the area, since where we live there are few companies that are not rotating shifts.
without a degree or training, its all low paying retail and food service around here.

even retail is shifts. they wont hire anyone unless you are willing to work any hours, they don't care if you have kids. they want to own you.

so, if they keep telling people to not take good jobs, because they're rotating shifts they wont have any money period.
the GB has instead burdened many congs and in the end, making them sell and move in with other halls due to lack of funds,by taking their savings and making them remodel when they did not have to. self consuming actually.

 +8 / -0
punkofnice
punkofnice 20 hours ago

We know the Governing body are knitting with only one needle but I think even they would know that such a move would be bad for business.
They prefer to look after paedophiles by guilt tripping the protection money from the JW rank & file(tm).
 +3 / -0
ToesUp
ToesUp 19 hours ago

The organization works best using peer pressure. I believe they will use the multilevel contribution award system. Provide lapel pin's,special Bibles,invitation to special events, lunch with the GB, a night in a lakeside suite at Warwick.
To the most loyal and giving members. then brother "loyal" can wear his gold JW.org lapel pin to the kingdom hall and to the assemblies to show everybody his loyalty by his special gift to the watchtower. I believe something like this would work best for this organization.
Here is a sample of giving levels

 +3 / -0
WTWizard
WTWizard 19 hours ago

Have fun getting anything out of me. Unless the hounders can find my silver stack and somehow appropriate it for the Worldwide Damnation Fund or for some Israel mission in the future, they are getting nothing. And instead of donating, if I have funds for the Worldwide Damnation Fund or to support the next Israel mission they are planning, I will go right to APMEX and order some more silver. And it will help me toward getting and sustaining platinum membership.
Which, to me, is better than some glorious sounding label from the jokehovian witlesses. Plus, when the dollar becomes toilet paper, I will be able to sustain myself. Let them try doing that, let alone donating anything, when silver becomes so valuable that people will trade 12 hours of VERY hard physical labor for one silver dime, and it will be regarded as a totally fair day's pay for a fair day's work.

 
Vidiot
Vidiot 16 hours ago

purrpurr - "Could they make not donating a disfellowshipping offence?"
Disfellowshipping?
No.
"Marking" (officially or otherwise) if it were public knowledge, though?
Abso-f**king-lutely.
x
And I can totally see them eventually wanting to set up a thing where if you are explicitly known to have not donated in, say, a year (or whatever), you'll be classified as having automatically "disassociated" yourself *.
x
* As is the case with celebrating Xmas, accepting a transfusion, or whistleblowing, or (we suspect is coming) having been inactive for a certain length of time.
 +3 / -0
Simon Templar
Simon Templar 15 hours ago
Nothing would surprise me at this point. Previously they have said for years that tithing is unscriptural. Decades really. That can all change in about two new Watchtower articles revealing new truth with some examples like David, Solomon, the Jews returning from exile, etc, and stretch it out to how it applies to us, and so-on. Most of the JWs don't have the resources to do a 10% tithe, so they will make it a lower amount, or one that the JW member selects, but it must be monthly and regular. I could see that happening.
 +1 / -0

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Could they make not donating a disfellowshipping offence?
by purrpurr 21 hours ago 14 Replies latest 7 hours ago   jw friends
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OneEyedJoe
OneEyedJoe 15 hours ago

They can do whatever the hell they want. That's part of the allure of being a cult leader. Though I don't think they will, mainly for the reasons already stated here. They'd have trouble selling it, and there are enough of those that are donating that would stop if they push too hard and in the wrong way.
They've already shown their plans on how they're going to try to raise the funds, and they're fairly clever. Things like the congregation-level tithe work perfectly because it puts the pressure on the elders to pressure the members. The elders aren't getting directly beaten up about their contributions, but since they have to give local needs parts and announce the shortfall, many will give more to avoid seeing themselves as hypocrites. At the same time the members see the pressure from the elders as a local issue, not a systemic one and they have their excuse for the hypocrisy.
They're doing the same thing with the assembly hall costs - raising per-publisher rates to create a group debt, then pressuring everyone to pay it off. They're also doing more special events with live streams and ordering that any funds donated at the kingdom hall for those events be sent in to the org. They do a pretty good job of keeping everything a group debt and letting elders do the legwork. They also do a pretty good job of making the R/F think they're actually getting something whenever there's a money grab - assemblies, "forgiven" loans and the LDC handles your remodel, etc. Of course they don't actually get anything, but as long as they create the appearance most JWs will go along because they don't want to see it for what it is.
In line with what Vidiot was saying - they'd probably not make it a DF offense anyway, because the whole point of such a policy would be to get people to donate more, they would probably use punishments that are more easily revoked once it has the desired effect.  If you started DFing people for not donating (especially those that just couldn't raise the cash at the time) a lot of those would never come back.  If you use social pressure, they'll stick around and start donating when they can.
 +3 / -0
millie210
millie210 14 hours ago

Toes up that is genius!
I wouldnt be at all surprised!
 
aboveusonlysky
aboveusonlysky 11 hours ago

I could see them wanting to keep tabs on contributions more as time goes on, remember the handing out slips last year for publishers to write what they were willing to contribute? Many genuine jdubs were shocked at that one.
Contributions to have a column on field service reports? They could say it was for tax reasons and then push the publishers for bank transfers rather than cash to limit the amount of jdubs that would inevitably lie, also contributions would be taken into account when privileges were discussed at elders meetings .
They love keeping records and power hungry brothers would like it too as it would be a way to literally buy yourself a position, it would also be another way to identify faders.......I really hope they don't read this and get ideas!
 +1 / -0
millie210
millie210 11 hours ago

They aleady have "tithing lite" in the form of those forms you are supposed to fill out saying what you will contribute.
I cant remember what the forms are called.
 +2 / -0
LisaRose
LisaRose 7 hours ago

They have taken Kingdom Halls built with free labor and paid for by individual congregations and sold them for a profit regardless of the impact to those who used them, taken possession of funds previously kept by the congregations, given the boot to workers who gave their life to the religion and who were promised a home for life, engaged in reporting phoney "deficits" at conventions and taken to constant begging, but no they will never pass a collection plate, because that would be sooooo evil.
 +2 / -0

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Hey, Y'all
by snowbird 13 hours ago 14 Replies latest 18 minutes ago   jw friends
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snowbird
snowbird 13 hours ago

How is everybody doing?
It's been 8 months since I've been here.
So many newbies!
LOL.
Sylvia

 +8 / -0
Simon
Simon 13 hours ago

We've just been passing the time until your return.
"People - the prophesy has been fulfilled !!!"
:grinning:
 +4 / -0
Doubtfully Yours
Doubtfully Yours 13 hours ago

Welcome back Sylvia!😀
I was away for years and couldn't help it, had to come back.
DY
 +2 / -0
snowbird
snowbird 13 hours ago

Thanks.
I've been busy with a family genealogy, and working on a timeline from Adam to Jesus of Nazareth.
When I publish the timeline, I submit that it's going to set off a firestorm.
LOL.
Sylvia

 +2 / -0
Lieu
Lieu 10 hours ago
Hi ya!
 +1 / -0
Pistoff
Pistoff 10 hours ago
Snowbird, are you saying you are in Jesus' family line??!!

 +1 / -0
compound complex
compound complex 9 hours ago

Dear Syl:
Think of you all the time, particularly when I reread old threads where you and I and the crew chatted away, spinning yarns and rejoicing in friendship!
Love ya!
CoCo
 +1 / -0
Magnum
Magnum 7 hours ago
Hey! Was wondering where you were.
 
GLTirebiter
GLTirebiter 5 hours ago
Hello Sylvia! Good to see that you are still around, and doing well it seems.

 
ShirleyW
ShirleyW 5 hours ago

Hello stranger!
 

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Hey, Y'all
by snowbird 13 hours ago 14 Replies latest 19 minutes ago   jw friends
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SnakesInTheTower
SnakesInTheTower 3 hours ago

Hi Sylvia...long time no see.
I read on here more than post. Posting from the tablet is cumbersome for someone who likes to write as much as I used to do here
Snakes (Rich)
 
JWdaughter
JWdaughter 3 hours ago

Welcome back. Your type always starts showing up this time of year
 
Juan Viejo2
Juan Viejo2 2 hours ago

Sylvia,
I've missed you. Glad to see you are back for a visit. Return often.
JV
 
jookbeard
jookbeard 2 hours ago
hey Sylvie, long time
 
life is to short
life is to short 19 minutes ago

Welcome back
 

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/ "Can we question leadership?" Check out the Morman answer....
/  



 

"Can we question leadership?" Check out the Morman answer....
by stuckinarut2 11 hours ago 8 Replies latest 4 hours ago   jw friends
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stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 11 hours ago

http://stakepresident.blogspot.com.au/2011/08/can-members-question-church-doctrine.html
How interesting! See a similarity?
Don't question the leaders or doctrine, because they are obviously correct...
 +2 / -0
SafeAtHome
SafeAtHome 11 hours ago
Holy Crap, not only did he get the evil notion to question anything from higher education....but....the answer, of course which is you do NOT question doctrine came from the doctrines own writing! Heck yes I see a similarity!😝 A cult by any other name.......
 +2 / -0
rebelfighter
rebelfighter  11 hours ago
Did you read any of the comments?
 
sparrowdown
sparrowdown 10 hours ago

If by "question" you mean critically then I can't think of many situations where you can question critically anyone who has some kind of power over you. The only way around that, if you really want to be heard, is to go to the person that has power over them.
And therein lies the problem. Religions have a free pass in many ways like discrimination for eg because God is their boss and only the highest ranking in the group have access to that boss - kinda sucks doesn't it.
 +1 / -0
sparky1
sparky1 10 hours ago


The men that govern the Mormon Church and the Governing Body(tm) of Jehovah's Witnesses............... BLOOD BROTHERS!
 +2 / -0
oppostate
oppostate 10 hours ago

Cults of a feather fly together
 +5 / -0
2+2=5
2+2=5 9 hours ago
The comments on that link are creepy to say the least. Entirely effed up is probably more accurate.
 
joey jojo
joey jojo 7 hours ago

Was having an amiable business meeting with a mormon recently and he was telling me how they don't drink alcohol.
I mentioned that the first miracle performed by jesus was turning water into wine.
He told me that it was his understanding that the wine mentioned in this case was 'pure grape juice ' and not alcoholic.
Belief truly is the enemy of reason.
 +1 / -0
James Mixon
James Mixon 4 hours ago

joey jojo: "pure grape juice"? Greek word for wine is "oinos" the same greek word used in
Ephesians 5;18 "do not get drunk on pure grape juice". Ok that doesn't make sense to get drunk
on grape juice. Jesus made some kick ass, back wood, red mountain wine. If you are going to make
up a story, make it interesting. Turning water into grape juice is no big deal, you just drop a few grapes
in the vat.
Yes I agree "belief truly is the enemy of reason".
 +1 / -0

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by Lostandfound 11 hours ago 6 Replies latest 5 hours ago   jw friends
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Lostandfound
Lostandfound 11 hours ago
Error sorry, cannot copy image
 
Lostandfound
Lostandfound 9 hours ago

 
FayeDunaway
FayeDunaway 9 hours ago

Seen on Facebook, not seen here, lol :).
Don't worry I'm probably more technologically challenged than anyone!
Omg, as witness, I can't figure out how to take out this highlighting!!!
 +1 / -0
skin
skin 5 hours ago
WOW FayeDunaway
FayeDunaway


Has of this moment, you have had 1914 posts under your name. That must mean something...LOL

 +1 / -0
FayeDunaway
FayeDunaway 5 hours ago

Thanks skin! But I don't know how to quote people, or add a pic, or anything. At least the highlighting is gone...not that I figured it out, it's just not there this time. :smile:
Plus I'm like REALLY lame about coming up with new topics. I think I'm up to 4 now.
Oh! I just got the 1914 joke :smile:. ...maybe at my 1975th post something magical will happen?? Or will it just fizzle out like the year did....

 +1 / -0
prologos
prologos 5 hours ago
FD:--go to the colors. the A, the arrow down, and make it white.
 +1 / -0
skin
skin 5 hours ago

FayeDunaway

 I will be looking forward to your 1975 post with great expectation...
 +3 / -0

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The Rebel
Who is your " I am" that your voice should be heard?
by The Rebel in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 40 minutes ago
i was recently thinking before i became " mike" i was an innocent baby, then as the days passed slowly by, i developed a sence of " iam".

as the days moved forward my body, slowly developed a a "sex organ" whilst my mind took on a sence of " emotional" and " intellectual" i am" .

this allowed me to become my current " i am?.

Lostandfound
6
Seen on facebook
by Lostandfound in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 11 hours ago
FayeDunaway
prologos
skin
5 hours ago
stuckinarut2
8
"Can we question leadership?" Check out the Morman answer....
by stuckinarut2 in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 11 hours ago http://stakepresident.blogspot.com.au/2011/08/can-members-question-church-doctrine.html.

how interesting!

see a similarity?.

2+2=5
joey jojo
James Mixon
4 hours ago
snowbird
13
Hey, Y'all
by snowbird in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 13 hours ago
how is everybody doing?.

it's been 8 months since i've been here.. so many newbies!.

lol.. sylvia.

JWdaughter
Juan Viejo2
jookbeard
2 hours ago
purrpurr
14
Could they make not donating a disfellowshipping offence?
by purrpurr in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 a day ago
i'm wondering at how far the borg could go in begging for money?

their halls are already resembling the"money changers in the temple".

as they get sued more and more due to their pedophilic paradise their coffers will be ever more drained.

aboveusonlysky
millie210
LisaRose
7 hours ago
stuckinarut2
22
The smug arrogance of "having the truth".
by stuckinarut2 in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Personal Experiences & Reunions
 a day ago
has anyone noticed that witnesses (from the top down) seem to have a quiet form of smug arrogance toward all non witnesses?.

perhaps it comes from being told how "special and unique" they are but they end up looking down on all normal members of the community because they are not witnesses.. so any form of "love" they show those in the territory is also limited as long as they accept the message...otherwise they are viewed contemptuously as "worldly" and therefore of little value...after all,they will be destroyed right?.

Introvert 2
Magnum
skin
6 hours ago
karter
32
What were you never going to do in "This system" But did it?
by karter in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 a day ago
finish school.. finish my apprenticeship (why are you doing that brother karter you will never finish it in this system).. buy a house.. pay the house off.. karter..

MisterP
Ucantnome
daringhart13
4 hours ago
COLLINS
1
Network Marketing or Multi-Level Marketing
by COLLINS in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 a day ago
i have read all your comments on my threads regarding my decision to join any network marketing or multi-level marketing.

please i need as many replies from everyone on the board regarding my decision to join any network marketing or multi-level marketing.

are all network marketing bad?

Simon
a day ago
compound complex
20
Courtesy Towards Senior Bicyclists, or First Time Riding in 45 Years!
by compound complex in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 2 days ago
greetings, fellow posters:.

i bought a nearly new 7-speed bicycle at a yard sale for $30 last weekend and took it out this morning on our paved local bicycle/walking trail.

the last time i rode was in my early- to mid- twenties when i used a bicycle to get to and from the kh for my pioneer service.

Village Idiot
compound complex
LV101
3 hours ago
turtleturtle
146
Maybe I'm Just Ignorant About the New "Anti-Gay" Video
by turtleturtle in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 2 days ago
homophobia (m-w.com):.

: irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals.

can someone tell me, specifically, was homophobic about the new "anti-gay" wt video.

cofty
Simon
steve2
9 hours ago
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