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The Friday Column: Leave no man behind →
Why Watchtower should be ashamed of its new homophobic child propaganda cartoon
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Posted on May 3, 2016
In the new cartoon, Sophia's mum teaches her how to be judgmental and bigoted
In the new cartoon, Sophia’s mum teaches her how to be judgmental and bigoted
It was in the summer 2012 that Jehovah’s Witnesses around the world were first introduced to Caleb and Sophia, the Governing Body’s new animated poster kids.
Their first cartoon adventures, which were distributed in DVDs at conventions and on the organization’s JW.org website, caused outrage even among many non-JWs. Watchtower’s blatant attempts to indoctrinate children using fear and paranoia created a wave of dismay that will have gone largely unnoticed by most ordinary JWs.
Since they first burst on to our screens, Caleb and Sophia have been taught by their troubled parents that Jehovah is pedantic enough to hate certain kinds of plastic action figures, that he wants kids to give their ice cream money to Watchtower, and that failing to pay sufficient attention at kingdom hall meetings can carry the death penalty.
But Watchtower apparently isn’t done with stripping JW kids of all innocence and individuality. Now the Governing Body wants them to challenge any classmates with gay or lesbian parents, and remind them that if mommy and mommy (or daddy and daddy) don’t change their ways they will lose their tickets to paradise.
It’s hard to know where to start in verbalizing one’s revulsion at the proud ignorance and homophobia on open display in this CGI monstrosity, but I will do my best.
Firstly, Sophia’s bewilderingly-orange mother manipulates her daughter with a metaphor that entirely misrepresents both homosexuality and Watchtower’s views regarding it. Sophia is asked to picture a man traveling with a bag, the contents of which trigger the airport security systems because he is carrying a prohibited item.
Homosexuality is explained as being the forbidden item the man must surrender before being allowed to travel on to his desired destination: paradise earth.
The video presents a misleading metaphor that misrepresents both homosexuality and Watchtower's teachings about what awaits homosexuals
The video presents a misleading metaphor that misrepresents both homosexuality and Watchtower’s teachings about what awaits homosexuals
Anybody remotely in tune with reality understands that homosexuality is not a “choice,” as so often portrayed by Christian fundamentalists. Straight people are born straight, and gay people are born gay. Just as it would be outrageous to ask a straight person to start being gay, it is impossible to expect a gay person to live a lie and stop being who they are. And yet this is what fanatics like Watchtower demand of them.
Secondly, the metaphor implies that if the traveler chooses against surrendering the forbidden item, the worst that will happen is that his ticket will be cancelled and he will be forced to browse the duty free before hailing a cab and making his way back to the hotel. But that is not how it works according to Jehovah’s Witness teachings.
If the metaphor were accurately and fully followed through, we would see the traveller being bundled away by security and thrown into a 1940s cattle cart, along with all others deemed undesirable by the Governing Body, before being dispatched to the great extermination camp of Armageddon.
This is not a case of “follow us, or don’t fly,” this is a case of “follow us, or die.”
But this doomsday aspect of Jehovah’s Witness theology is so repugnant to most ordinary people that Watchtower must do its best to obfuscate it wherever possible.
Even most JWs you may encounter on the street, if pressed on the matter, will deny that literally billions of people, including children, are in line for mass slaughter if their hopes and expectations come to fruition. Their continued state of subservience to their religion depends on them not thinking things through to their fullest, most grisly conclusion.
All that deception and mischaracterization aside, arguably the most repugnant and disturbing aspect of this vile cartoon is that it sets out to recruit JW children to impose the organization’s homophobic bigotry on any classmates who happen to have gay or lesbian parents.
When I was growing up as a JW I recall being indoctrinated into believing that homosexuality was to be condemned. But I don’t remember once being told to actively seek out homosexuals, or children of homosexuals, to badger them with my beliefs. All that, apparently, has now changed. Watchtower has thrown its hat in with all the other sickly Christian evangelicals whose crusade is to stamp out homosexuality wherever it surfaces.
If you want to see what the end game is of preaching hate in this way, you need only watch the documentary “God Loves Uganda,” which is currently running on Netflix. It shows how U.S. evangelicals have taken a loathsome message that has zero credibility in their homeland, and cynically flooded Uganda with it – a country whose populace have limited access to education and are therefore easy pickings for those who spew ignorance and bigotry.
And before I am accused of trying to persuade people towards atheism by making this film recommendation, I should point out that two heroes of the film are Reverend Kaoma and Bishop Senyonjo. By the end of the film, I wanted to reach into my screen and hug them both.
Despite being Christians they could plainly see the real danger posed by evangelical homophobic fanaticism, and were doing their best in the face of unspeakable brutality to urge love, respect and tolerance.
Now it seems Watchtower, having already embraced televangelism, are also now quite happy to count themselves among the small-minded homophobic hate-mongers who stain our society. And rather than lead the hateful charge themselves, the likes of Tony Morris and his Governing Body cronies are content to hide behind a newly-formed army of school-age foot-soldiers who will take the heat for them.
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Further reading…
◾Metro article
◾Independent article
◾Inquisitr article
◾The Friendly Atheist article
◾Rawstory article
◾Complex article
◾Wetpaint article
◾Pink News article
◾Wonkette article
◾Gaystarnews article
◾SDGLN.com article
◾Same Same article
◾Newnownext article
◾The Daily Dot article
◾The Stranger article
◾The Gaily Grind article
◾Dangerous Minds article
◾TheNewCivilRightsMovement.com article
◾Progressive Secular Humanist article
◾JoeMyGod.com article
◾Watchtower’s New “Toy Story” – What Parents Need to Know
◾Sparlock a year later: Non-JWs in uproar on YouTube
◾Cough up kids! Watchtower needs your ice cream money
◾“Pay attention or die” – A disturbing glimpse of JW child indoctrination at work
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The Friday Column: Leave no man behind →
325 Responses to Why Watchtower should be ashamed of its new homophobic child propaganda cartoon
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MARS says:
May 3, 2016 at 10:47 am
The grapevine. They are also planning to do a Celeb story regarding former “associates” , how Celeb asks Dad why can’t he play with his friends anymore – its about children shunning children of ex members aka apostates. Its in the works.
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Covert Fade says:
May 3, 2016 at 10:53 am
I hope they bring that out soon.
Because that will be forwarded ASAP to all of the Government and legal investigations going on around the world into the JW’s.
I love it when Watchtower hands it’s foes a fully loaded Uzi…
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yawn says:
May 3, 2016 at 11:22 am
Are they just poking the bear here by making this, and the rumored one about shunning, so they can scream PERSECUTION when gov’t agencies and others call them out on their crap?
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yawn says:
May 3, 2016 at 10:48 am
In addition to the ridiculous message, how sick is it to implant in Sophia’s mind that she is now RESPONSIBLE to some degree for whether her friend and her family survive Armageddon.
That’s a lot of pressure to put on a kid, and will likely cause her much anguish for no good reason (as those of us raised JW likely know).
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karl says:
May 4, 2016 at 7:31 am
This is par for the course for the cult. I remember as a kid becoming a publisher in large part because I thought I’d be killed as punishment for failing to convert someone and “forcing” god to kill them too. Pretty messed up to be thinking things like that at 11.
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alanv says:
May 3, 2016 at 11:05 am
The more of these stupid children’s videos there are, the bigger the hole they are digging for themselves. Authorities the world over will see Watchtower for what it is.
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BC says:
May 3, 2016 at 11:16 am
Dear Lloyd, congratulations for yours fantastic posts!
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Dr Strabismus of Utrecht says:
May 3, 2016 at 11:31 am
“My mother made me a homosexual”.
“Really? If I get her the wool, will she make me one, too?”
Do the Governing Body and Sophia’s mother really think homosexuality is catching? 😉
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Kay says:
May 4, 2016 at 3:45 am
Yes. These are people who are attracted to the same gender, yet repress those feelings. They think everyone is secretly doing the same thing. So if homosexuality becomes more acceptable they think we will all ditch our opposite sex partners for new gay relationships.
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Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:
May 4, 2016 at 8:27 am
*** w86 1/1 p. 13 par. 12 Days Like “the Days of Noah” ***
Shocking as it is, even some who have been prominent in Jehovah’s organization have succumbed to immoral practices, including homosexuality, wife swapping, and child molesting. It is to be noted, also, that during the past year, 36,638 individuals had to be disfellowshipped from the Christian congregation, the greater number of them for practicing immorality. Jehovah’s organization must be kept clean!
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Dr Strabismus of Utrecht says:
May 4, 2016 at 12:56 pm
Gosh! 😉
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Dr Strabismus of Utrecht says:
May 4, 2016 at 12:59 pm
Yet another example of “I’m not having any fun, so nobody else should” misery-guts syndrome…
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Riley says:
May 3, 2016 at 11:31 am
Great video Lloyd !
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WideAwake says:
May 3, 2016 at 11:33 am
Thank you Lloyd for the well written article.
The truly sad part is how intolerance and a lack of compassion and understanding is such an intrinsic part of this cruel and controlling religion.
To use cartoons to poison the minds of young, innocent vulnerable children is despicable.
As you have stated, homosexuality by and large is not a choice.
My JW cousin was a homosexual. Sadly he could not come to terms with the self-hatred and despair he lived with daily and committed suicide.
The Watchtower might as well have put the gun to his head.
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Doc Obvious says:
May 3, 2016 at 11:39 am
Anything that Jehovah does not approve of will not be able to go to paradise.
Let me think of different items that Jehovah does not approve of.
Well, here is a list:
1. A false tongue, lying.
2. Being deceitful.
3. Watchtower covering up pedophile cases.
4. Watchtower not obeying the superior authorities when being asked for Child Sexual Abuse files.
5. Child kidnapping.
6. 1,006 cases of child abuse in Australia.
7. Watchtower coveting people’s money.
8. Jehovah God does not want pedophiles in paradise.
9. Not taking care of items that are in their power to do so.
10. Not being truthful about their financial situation.
11. Threatening people into submission.
There is more. If anyone has more items please add.
Well, I guess Watchtower will not be able to go to paradise either.
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Sarah says:
May 4, 2016 at 3:00 am
Add to your list:
Writing secret rules in 90 secret letters to elders
Said rules breach human rights
Said rules breach Bible principles
Said rules contradict public rules in WT mags
Said rules make elders act against law.
Etc.
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Lester Kite says:
May 3, 2016 at 11:51 am
they’ve hit a new low, but will suffer the consequences of it like they have with all the other releases
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Will says:
May 3, 2016 at 12:20 pm
Can you imagine if Sophia actually witnesses to her classmate about the “wrongness” of homosexuality? Let’s see: Sophia tells her classmates that her moms need to break up, so now the moms will have decide who keeps the kid. A family will be shattered, but that’s OK, they’ll being in paradise. What’s really going happen— Sophia’s classmate will tell her mom all the awful things Sophia said, including how God’s going to kill them. The moms will be furious, storm the school and demand to speak with Sophia’s horrible parents. The moms will likely get loud and then Sophia’s family will be at a convention talking about being persecuted for Jehovah and the speaker will tell everyone what a great example they are. This will be followed by a thunderous applause.
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Markie says:
May 3, 2016 at 12:51 pm
I guess you didn’t notice but the mother encouraged her to mention paradise, the resurrection and the animals.
Wonder why they didn’t use to fathers.
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ThePenthouseExperience says:
May 3, 2016 at 8:26 pm
The fathers are on the “down-low” and probably “tricking” during the video storyboard and production.
That’s where all this “conversion” effort will lead–some kinky, kinky judicial meetings in the future.
So, the gay fellow had to leave behind his “Louis Vuitton” overnight bag to get into Paradise? I assume he got to keep the Rolex and the Armani suits?
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Searcher says:
May 4, 2016 at 9:18 am
Yeah! He had his ‘tight pants’ in the overnight bag!
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Doc Obvious says:
May 3, 2016 at 12:57 pm
So, Sophia calls into question the girl’s two mommies’ sexual orientation. The girl with the two mommies cries home and discusses the incident with the two mommies. The mommies tell the daughter to gang up on Sophia.
The next day Sophia gets in a fight with the girl with two mommies and gets sent to the principal’s office. The principal wants to know what is going on and finds that Sophia is not accepting of people for who they are. The Principal calls Sophia’s parents.
The Principal asks Sophia’s parents how Sophia became so opinionated. The Principal finds out that Sophia’s parents also discriminate based on sexual orientation. Weeks go by. The two mommies sue Sophia’s parents for discrimination and now appear in court.
The judge hears both sides and orders that Sophia and Sophia’s parents need sensitivity training and to do community service in the LGBT community. The judge states how flawed the Watchtower is and that their teachings are not good for the community.
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ThePenthouseExperience says:
May 3, 2016 at 8:41 pm
While lesbians are a bit testosterone-endowed, I doubt the violence will be pushed from their side. The lesbian couple will approach the Principal or Teacher at the local welcoming church meeting and discuss the issue. There will be a call to the JW parents who will respond with arrogance and presumptive indignation assuming their rightness; the Principal will explain that she has no choice but to suspend the student based on bullying policies since Sophia has created a hostile learning environment.
A similar incident happened when Sophia’s dad was fired for creating a hostile work environment by preaching toward a transgender and ignoring supervisor reprimand and preaching at an openly gay coworker.
Sophia’s mom has begun experiencing anxiety and panic attacks due to mounting financial concerns and now this incident with the daughter has her experiencing a “persecution complex” with her anxiety.
When Sophia mom approached the elders with her issues of anxiety, they recommended that she pray, focus more on ministry, and meditate more on the literature (electronic books). She’s finding herself needing more than the two pain pills prescribed for a back pain she has developed from scrubbing the floors on her knees. It seems to help with the anxiety as well–at least she can make it through the day, now.
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Markie says:
May 3, 2016 at 12:47 pm
I do think that video is ridiculous but I am not sure if it is scientifically proven if people are born gay or not. I think it maybe a confluence of many things.
A video like this makes me wonder what Sanderson thinks. I would venture a guess and say he is probably gay (not that there is anything wrong with it). I could just imagine all the hot pioneer sisters that threw themselves at him and he is still single.
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Winston Smith says:
May 3, 2016 at 1:12 pm
Based on my observations, being born gay or straight is not so black and white. It seems there is a range of sexual orientation between gay and straight and we are all born somewhere in that range. Then our life experiences help to determine which way we lean based on our born-in predisposition. Some people are born hardcore straight others hardcore gay. Some are in between.
So it’s not necessarily nature OR nurture. It’s nature AND nurture that determine our sexual orientation. It is still beyond our control and thus not something we should use as reason to hate others.
WS
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Imgonaburn says:
May 3, 2016 at 2:53 pm
My son is gay despite being ‘nurtured’ by his jw upbringing otherwise. He has Aspergers and we always (at the time) hoped as jw parents that his effeminate side was attributable to his Asd. I would often be at appointments with medical professionals where this side of his character would be discussed. I was prepared for the possibility that my son would be gay. I would say to Camhs that if he is gay or trans or whatever that I would support him regardless. Long story short. When I realised that he IS gay I quit the religion.
I personally don’t think nurture plays much of a role in determining a persons sexuality. It’s not a choice. You are what you are.
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Winston Smith says:
May 3, 2016 at 3:39 pm
I certainly never said or meant to imply that it was a choice. And let’s face it, jw “nurturing” is anything but that. When psychologists talk about nurture they are not necessarily talking about our upbringing, but the sum total of the experiences that influence our behavior. That’s the essence of the nature vs nurture debate that psychologists have been having for over 100 years.
When I talk about varying degrees of sexual orientation, imagine a gauge similar to a speedometer. On the far left you have totally homosexual and on the far right you have totally heterosexual. Most of us are probably born at one extreme or the other, but some fall in the middle. The closer you are to the middle the more your experiences may play a role in your final sexual orientation. At the extremes you are less likely to be influenced by your experiences. This model helps explain how some men or woman may have homosexual or heterosexual experiences at some point during youth, but then realize that the opposite orientation is a better fit. It doesn’t mean that it’s a choice. It’s simply a result of nature combined with nurture.
WS
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Imgonaburn says:
May 3, 2016 at 4:49 pm
I apologise if my post sounded like I was attacking you. I was thought nurturing was to do with how we raise our children. I do understand what you are saying winston. thank you for explaining more about the nurture slant. I’ve just had an interesting conversation with my son. Even though he is gay and I’m straight we both agree that we find the female form more attractive lol. So maybe that sort of adds weight to what you are saying.
I found the video very disturbing though and I’m glad I’m out of the jw mindset now. I’ve shared it on FB. I don’t have jw friends on FB and some of my ‘worldy’ friends have commented on the video saying how disgusting it is.
The society are getting it wrong on so many levels. If they think that this is acceptable then they are dillusional. It needs to be shared online and given enough rope they will surely hang themselves?
apostate shamostate says:
May 3, 2016 at 1:57 pm
I think the point Lloyd is making that being gay is not a choice. If it were then people who are gay in countries that stone gay people would probably choose to be straight. They don’t choose that, because being gay is not a choice.
I never decided to be straight, I was born straight, I have never thought anything different and luckily for me that is the socially acceptable norm in society. It is time gay, straight, transgender, asexual, pan-sexual etc etc were all considered socially acceptable norms and we just started minding our own business, stop being so interested in the sex lives of other people and were just nice to everyone.
Sorry, rant over. It’s been a long and stressful day!
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JBob says:
May 3, 2016 at 9:17 pm
I think we can get obsessed on whether it is innate or a preference and lose sight of the impact the Watchtower’s approach has on families. Noting that this video doesn’t bridge, or introduce, what happens when this lesbian couple (or one partner) decides to do things “Jehovah’s way” and creates an emotional mess of her life, her partner’s, her daughter’s, (assuming it is biological) and the father(s, if gay couple shared), then the stigma that will follow her as she strives to fit into JW community.
(And, here is where the imbalance comes, as an outsider probably has a better chance of being “welcomed” than a child of current JW parents. As we learned last year, androgynous boys and girls are not fully embraced and given full access to JW privileges and rites.)
Every move she mimics to become “straight” being scrutinized, then herself scrutinizing own mannerisms, speech and whether she’s being “submissive” instead of the relative egalitarian lesbian partnership she once had.
Oh, the potlucks will be held–maybe once every three months, but certainly no charitable fund-raisers, or community action events, unless we count crafting trinkets for the international convention delegates. Maybe if you land in the right congregation, you’ll see the unconditional love and caring showed by LGBT community during the HIV/AIDS crisis of the late 80’s and early 90’s, but if it’s an affliction that was caught while “unbecoming of a JW”–eh, reaping what you sow [puts covered dish and vacuum back in cupboard].
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Linda Cebrian says:
May 3, 2016 at 9:19 pm
@markie: The director of the Human Genome Project has stated that sexuality is NOT hardwired. No one is born with a “sexual orientation.” That term is artificial jargon- constructed by homoerotic activists as part of the gay “rights” lexicon.
We are all born with a biological sex according to our chromosomal makeup: XY=male; XX=female. Here is where science confirms the Bible
(cf. Gen 1:27; Mt 19:5; Gal 3:28).
Homosexuality is learned behavior and anything that is learned can be unlearned, which explains the reality of ex-gays who have been able to renounce/overcome their unwanted same-sex attractions. Unfortunately, cultural supports for this truth are lacking, since political correctness is the order of the day. The gay lobby (aka Big Sodomy) is well-funded and well-connected to the media, the judiciary, academe and politics.
For more on the ex-gay movement, please google NARTH, the Restored Hope Network and/or Transforming Congregations.
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apostate shamostate says:
May 4, 2016 at 12:47 am
You are joking??? Seriously this is very offensive. Hundreds of people have been killed because of their sexual identities and you are saying this is a choice!!!!!!
When did you choose to be straight?
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Chris says:
May 4, 2016 at 1:13 am
“We are all born with a biological sex according to our chromosomal makeup: XY=male; XX=female. Here is where science confirms the Bible
(cf. Gen 1:27; Mt 19:5; Gal 3:28).”
This is actually not true. There is much more to biological sex in humans and other mammals than male and female, and I am not talking about transgender people or gender identity. For your edification, please read the following:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XYY_syndrome
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klinefelter_syndrome
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Klinefelter_XXY
“Homosexuality is learned behavior and anything that is learned can be unlearned, which explains the reality of ex-gays who have been able to renounce/overcome their unwanted same-sex attractions.”
You are also incorrect about this. The scientific consensus is that the opposite is true, and that it is not a learned behavior, just as heterosexuality is not a learned behavior. And this isn’t because of the mythical power of “Big Sodomy” either, it is because this is where the evidence points.
In fact, the initial assumption of the first scientists who studied this was similar to your view now. The scientific consensus of the 1950s (when sexuality started to really be studied) and the 1960s was that homosexuality was a learned behavior too, and that it could be cured. Based on their initial assumptions, scientists set out to prove that this was the case. However, study after study has demonstrated just the opposite. Now, let me explain to you why scientists understand this to be the case.
The first clue that sexual orientation wasn’t a choice came from just talking to gay people. Early surveys of homosexual people found that the vast majority of them (90% and up) felt as if they had no control over their sexual orientation. However, I am sure you will reject this because these are the gay people themselves telling you how they feel. And of course, this alone isn’t enough evidence, but it marked the beginning of scientists considering and studying a non-illness model of homosexuality.
The real nail in the coffin for the hypothesis that homosexuality is a learned behavior, however, comes from the study of genetics. To date, countless studies have found a genetic link to homosexuality, and none have not. For example, in a 1991 twin study, one of the first twin studies to look at homosexuality, they found a high concordance rate (the rate that both twins have a given trait) for homosexuality among twins. From the abstract, “52% (29/56) of monozygotic cotwins [identical twins], 22% (12/54) of dizygotic cotwins [fraternal twins], and 11% (6/57) of adoptive brothers were homosexual. Heritabilities were substantial under a wide range of assumptions about the population base rate of homosexuality and ascertainment bias” (http://archpsyc.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=495588%20). The sample size was small, but it showed a clear connection between genes and homosexuality. More study was definitely warranted, but, why should it be the case that men are much more likely to be gay if they have a gay identical twin, if not because male homosexuality is partly caused by genetics? And no, it is not true that if some trait has a genetic cause, then that trait should occur 100% of the time in identical twins. For example, the concordance rate of schizophrenia in identical twins is between 10% and 60% depending on if the twins shared the same placenta (http://schizophreniabulletin.oxfordjournals.org/content/21/3/357.short). Likewise, for left-handedness, the concordance rate in identical twins is around 75% to 80% (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3900763/#B11). And, I am certain you do not think people “choose” to be schizophrenic or left-handed, do you? You would rightly think that someone was rather ignorant if they said that schizophrenia is a learned behavior.
In a somewhat more recent twin study (2000), with a large, nationally representative sample, they found the same thing as the 1991 study, but with a slightly lower concordance rate of 31.6% for identical twins. From the study, “these results suggest that genetic factors may provide an important influence on sexual orientation” (pg. 1845, http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/pdf/10.1176/appi.ajp.157.11.1843). If your hypothesis was correct, we would expect that for identical twins, if one twin is gay, the other twin would only be gay at the same rate as the population (~3%), but this is not what we find. And you may rebut this by saying that perhaps the higher rate among twins is due to the gay twin influencing or “recruiting” the other one to be gay. But, if this was the case, then we would expect the higher concordance rate to be roughly the same for fraternal twins, who do not share the exact same DNA, and identical twins, who do, since we would expect a roughly equivalent number of gay fraternal twins to succeed in “recruiting” their “straight” sibling. Of course, we do not see that. In fact, we see that fraternal twins have a lower concordance rate than identical twins, 13.3% compared to 31.6%. Why should it be the case that the more DNA twins have in common, the higher the concordance rate if genetics played no role in determining sexual orientation?
In addition to twin studies, and genetics, it was been found that the more older brothers a boy has, the more likely it is that he will be gay. From the abstract of a study on fraternal birth order and its effect on male homosexuality, “In men, sexual orientation correlates with an individual’s number of older brothers, each additional older brother increasing the odds of homosexuality by approximately 33%” (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0018506X01916812). Why would having more older brothers increase the chances of a male being gay? According to you, I suppose, people with more older brothers just coincidentally learn to be gay more often. According to reality, however, it is hypothesized that each additional brother born, makes more changes to the mother’s womb. These changes effect the levels of certain hormones and chemicals that are exposed to the future developing fetuses. The result is that future male fetuses are more likely to develop a homosexual sexual orientation.
The fact of the matter is that nobody chooses to be gay, straight, or bisexual, and nobody has any significant ability to change their sexual orientation, whether through prayer or therapy. Of course, this post is long enough already, and I do not have the time to relay to you the scientific studies on ex-gay therapy, like I did for the causes of homosexuality in humans. But very briefly, the studies show that ex-gay “therapy” is ineffective, and can actually be extremely harmful. It is, in a great sense, torture to beat into a gay child’s mind that they are sick and need to be healed, especially since they have no way of changing their sexual feelings. You set them up for failure, and then shun them when they fail. It is despicable, and has directly caused suicide.
I hope that you use the information I just taught you, and don’t just ignore it. Of course you have the right to believe whatever you want, but you should really change your beliefs about homosexuality so that they match the best available evidence, particularly since the types of incorrect beliefs you hold about gay people often result in the poor treatment of those people. I am sure you would say that you “love” gay people, but when you believe demonstrably untrue things about how they become gay and if they can stop being gay, then you clearly don’t love them enough to take the time to understand them.
Regards! Hope you have a nice day.
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MattH says:
May 4, 2016 at 2:21 am
Thanks, I did do some searching as a result of reading your comment and I found this quote from Francis Collins, the director of the Human Genome Project:
“…indicating that sexual orientation is genetically influenced but not hardwired by DNA, and that whatever genes are involved represent predispostions, not predeterminations.”
Not so black and white as you state is it?
Then there is a further quote from him:
“The words quoted by NARTH all come from the appendix to my book “The Language of God” (pp.260-263), but have been juxtaposed in a way that suggests a somewhat different conclusion that I intended. I would urge anyone who is concerned about the meaning to refer back to the original text.”
Google. It’s a powerful tool for exposing misinformation.
(I searched for: director of human genome project sexuality not hard wired.)
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Victor says:
May 4, 2016 at 5:26 am
chromosomes determine whether or not you have an excrescence between the legs, not your sexual orientation. it is sad to see so much bigotry in 2016.
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Kaytee says:
May 4, 2016 at 6:39 am
Wrong wrong wrong! I did a research paper my first year of college trying to prove to myself that JW teachings on LGBTQ were right; instead, my research proved that they are unambiguously dead wrong* (no wonder they don’t want believers getting an education). You obviously don’t know the science you claim to know: homosexuality has been mapped to certain genes and epigenetic variations—proof that it’s not a “learned behavior.” To believe otherwise is nothing less than bigotry!
*As just one example of what my research found: transgender girls as young as toddlerhood have been caught trying to remove their male genetalia. If they weren’t born transgender, they wouldn’t care what’s between their legs until puberty at the earliest.
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Kaytee says:
May 4, 2016 at 6:43 am
Oh, and another thing: gay repatriation therapy has been almost universally illegalized in the United States as well as in many other developed countries. Why? Because it is unethical and all too often leads to suicide. In my view, anyone who contributes to the vilification of LGBTQ people after knowing the facts has blood on their hands.
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Kaytee says:
May 4, 2016 at 6:53 am
Reading my above comment, I realize I misspoke: To clarify, gay conversion or *reparative* therapy (stupid malapropism) is not banned for adults in most places, but for children. Additionally, most psychologists will not perform such therapy even on adults, because it’s considered unethical.
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Hip hip hooray I'm an ex says:
May 4, 2016 at 6:49 am
Francis Collins, the head of the Human Genome project, is an evangelical Christian.
Do you think that might’ve slanted his viewpoint on homosexuality’s inheritedness?
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dee2 says:
May 4, 2016 at 6:57 am
@ Linda Cebrian,
Here’s a thought on Genesis 1:27:
GOD IS INVISIBLE but he made man in his “Image.” What does an invisible image look like?
Man was made from (depending on translation) dust, clay, or mud. Logically, the 1st human was mud in the invisible image of God.
All humans have 46 chromosomes but sex is determined by only 2 of them X and Y.
Males have one X and one Y. Females have 2 X’s.
Eve was constructed from Adam’s DNA (using his rib)
Eve had to be a clone of Adam. If God duplicated Adam’s X chromosome to make 2 X’s Even would be Female, but still related in every way to Adam. Why?
She would share the other 44 chromosomes with him. This would make her a Fraternal Twin.
ADAM married his sister!
OR
ADAM married his clone.
But wait!
Where in the Bible do we find the “wedding ceremony” of Adam and Eve?
Eve is called his “wife” but in what sense could a brother and sister marry and not produce idiots for children?
FUNDAMENTALISTS say: “God made Adam and Eve–not Adam and STEVE.”
However, we know that any sample of DNA from a person is specific to that person and does not change. That fact is helping to solve crimes, establish paternity and are getting people released from death row. Since the source material came from a dude, Adam, then the sample would be an exact genetic match for Adam.
Gulp!
That means that God did make Adam and STEVE after all!
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dee2 says:
May 4, 2016 at 1:42 pm
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5634582229549056/maybe-god-did-make-adam-steve-after-all
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dee2 says:
May 4, 2016 at 9:37 am
@Linda Cebrian,
“We are all born with a biological sex according to our chromosomal makeup: XY=male; XX=female. Here is where science confirms the Bible
(cf. Gen 1:27; Mt 19:5; Gal 3:28).”
The following article is of interest:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/think-gender-comes-down-to-x-and-y-chromosomes-think-again/article24811543/:
Think gender comes down to X and Y chromosomes? Think again
PETER MCKNIGHT
Special to The Globe and Mail
Thursday, Jun. 04, 2015
Peter McKnight is an adjunct professor in the School of Criminology at Simon Fraser University.
“So which washroom is Caitlyn Jenner supposed to use? If you haven’t been keeping up with the Kardashians, you probably haven’t heard that Caitlyn is the name former Olympian and Kardashian patriarch Bruce Jenner has given herself.
And if you haven’t been keeping up with transgender issues, you probably haven’t heard that these things always come down to washrooms. Those who oppose all matters transgender inevitably get their knickers in a knot about who belongs in which washroom.
Witness the Senate’s recent efforts to gut NDP MP Randall Garrison’s transgender rights bill by exempting washrooms from its purview. And witness Conservative Senator Donald Plett’s comments that “vulnerable women” need to be protected from “biological males” who might enter the women’s washroom.
For many people, biology defines sex, and sex is always a binary affair. Sure, postmodernists have been playing with the concept of gender for decades, but sex, well, sex is sacred, which means you’re either biologically male or female. But never both. Or neither.
But biology doesn’t work that way. Biological phenomena don’t necessarily fit into human-ordained binary categories. So while humans insist that you’re either male or female – that you have either XY or XX sex chromosomes – biology begs to differ.
For example, genetic men with Klinefelter syndrome possess an extra X chromosome (XXY) or more rarely, two or three extra Xs (XXXY, XXXXY); they typically produce low levels of testosterone, leading to less-developed masculine sexual characteristics and more-developed feminine characteristics than other men. In contrast, some men receive an extra Y chromosome (XYY) in the genetic lottery, and while they have been referred to as “supermales” that is more sensationalism than science.
Genetic women with Turner syndrome have only one X chromosome; they often display less-developed female sexual characteristics than other women. And people with a genetic mosaic possess XX chromosomes in some cells and XY in others. So how do we determine if they’re male or female? Hint: Don’t say that it depends on the chromosomal makeup of the majority of their cells, since women with more than 90 per cent XY genetic material have given birth.
Even if you get the “right” combination of sex chromosomes, it’s no guarantee that you’ll fit into the carefully circumscribed human definitions of male and female.
For example, genetic women (XX) with congenital adrenal hyperplasia produced unusually high levels of virilizing hormones in utero and develop stereotypically masculine sexual characteristics, including masculinized genitals.
Similarly, genetic men (XY) with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome don’t respond to male hormones and fail to develop masculine sexual characteristics. Most live their lives as women. Some historians suggest that Joan of Arc, Elizabeth I and Wallis Simpson all suffered from this syndrome.
So what’s the answer? There isn’t one, at least if we’re looking for the answer in biology. We must not fall back on biology. Rather, we must always remember that it is we, not biology, who decide who counts as male or female. And it is we who must take responsibility for our decisions.”
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Imgonaburn says:
May 5, 2016 at 10:18 am
How can a person who has been raised a jw ‘learn’ homosexuality.
Stop with all of your foolishness it’s most unbecoming.
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Outandabout says:
May 5, 2016 at 6:55 pm
Exactly! For anyone to say that homosexuality can be un-learned is to say that the likes of autism, bi-polar, schizophrenia etc, can also be un-learned. Imagine telling a paranoid schizophrenic to “snap the hell out of it”. To suggest that a person chooses to put themselves in a position of ridicule at best and death at worst is moronic. Any cases where somebody has renounced their gayness will have been for survival reasons only. I respect peoples views on this site, but people suggesting homosexuality is a learned thing are total and utter idiots who need to extract their heads from their butts!
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apostate shamostate says:
May 3, 2016 at 1:35 pm
Thank you for writing this Lloyd. This video made me so angry when I watched it this morning and I feel a little calmer reading your rational take on how evil this horrible cult is. I do think this video should be shared far and wide and sent to newspapers, politicians etc to make people aware of just how nasty and dangerous this sect is. I honestly believe they are one step away from killing their children with KoolAid or sending them to blow up cathedrals and instead of shouting ‘Allahu Akbar’ they will shout ‘JW.org!’
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DavidR says:
May 3, 2016 at 1:59 pm
Also Sophia, later Cain took his sister as his wife. So I hope you REALLY like your brother, cause you’re going to see a whole lot more of him.
Oh wait, we ignore that part? Oh okay.
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Will says:
May 3, 2016 at 2:33 pm
I just sent the Village Voice, here in NYC the link to the video from JW.org. This is awful and it needs to be put out there.
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Will says:
May 3, 2016 at 2:41 pm
And TV station WNBC. I said that with all the attention with Prince’s death and his embrace of the religion, it’s interesting how anti-gay witnesses and told them about the disturbing children’s video.
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Cherie says:
May 4, 2016 at 8:01 am
Yesss. I really hope the mainstream media picks up on this.
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Cherie says:
May 4, 2016 at 7:59 am
Good one, Will!
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Tara says:
May 3, 2016 at 2:53 pm
Already on fb. an ex witness posted it and it’s being shared. talk about nail in their own coffin shut. Good job WT 🙂
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jonathan says:
May 3, 2016 at 2:53 pm
Guys, as much as I do not condone JW doctrine, you do realize that any christian religion that takes the bible seriously will include homosexuality as a sinful practice, right? I dont understand why this is so surprising.
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yawn says:
May 3, 2016 at 3:16 pm
Right. And all of Lloyds rebuttals apply to them, too. He even brings this up in the video, when speaking of Uganda.
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Cobb says:
May 3, 2016 at 7:27 pm
I don’t think the point is that they don’t condone homosexuality. Even though there is nothing to approve or condone.. it simply is a fact of life. I think the point is that they are teaching little children to actively insult their peers and tell them that their parents are hated by god.
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markw says:
May 4, 2016 at 11:36 am
That’s the point, Cobb. Exactly!
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sally peterson says:
May 3, 2016 at 4:20 pm
Where does Jesus tell us to hate? I seem to recall Jesus telling us to love everyone, even our enemies and to pray for those persecuting us.”Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.” Romans 13:10 Its a shame to see all this teaching of hatred.
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Caroline says:
May 3, 2016 at 4:53 pm
When I saw that cartoon I was repulsed by it too and I am so glad you did a video about it and an article. Thanks!!
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Tara says:
May 3, 2016 at 5:18 pm
can I please suggest that any parents out there contact your school and warn them of the video. For all the children’s sake, Jw or not. When my daughter was small she told her classmate in no uncertain term that Christmas was bad and evil…. you can imagine the fallout we had from that one. I was summoned by the head teacher etc etc. If one of the JW children tells a classmate about this video and elaborates, as they will, with help from mum and dad, there could be serious reprisals in the form of bullying. No child deserves that and most JW kids are little parrots. They will repeat word for word what they hear. Please, please contact your children’s teacher’s. Forewarned is forearmed.
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Jeffreycanning says:
May 3, 2016 at 5:26 pm
Homosexual people are born such, and therefore born in Gods image…Maybe God is gay…?
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Balcácer says:
May 3, 2016 at 6:11 pm
Can people do a sit in ? And tell that this organization that once again has failed-
!!
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Flying Gabriel says:
May 3, 2016 at 6:11 pm
They gave Sophia’s Mum nice perky breasts … to help the gay people.
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gary says:
May 3, 2016 at 11:50 pm
Has she?, I must have missed that
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Anonymous says:
May 3, 2016 at 6:37 pm
As a 23 year old closeted gay guy that’s still in the organization this infuriates me it shows how ignorant watchtower is. There is no way I can stop being gay. It’s so hard keeping a secret like this especially from Full Devouted JW parents and siblings. That little girl Sophia whatever her name is needs to shut the hell up and mind her own business. This video makes me sick portraying Homosexuality like its a
Freakin T Shirt like its something I can just take on and off. I don’t believe in the Bible anymore some of it may be historically accurate but more than half of it is made up bull. I’m trying really hard to keep my fake smile and greet at the Kingdom Hall, I love my parents very much and according to my parents they tell they love me unconditionally BUT telling them I’m gay would completely throw them off, they don’t even suspect asking me when I’m getting married constantly. Thank you Cedars for opening my eyes since 99% of JW don’t even know what’s going on inside the org and would deny it saying its Santans work. Sorry for my long Comment thanks to Watchtower I have no friends, no life and no career.
That is all
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Tara says:
May 3, 2016 at 6:48 pm
For what it’s worth, you have friends here. A brother in my ex hall is gay. He has never ‘come out’ and his mother will tell you that he is just a very ‘clean’ boy….. even elders and non witness people can see that he is gay but the poor lad just hides it. I don’t think you are in any way alone. I am glad you told us. It took extreme courage but I know you will not be judged here. You are among people who care about you, not what you are or what others define or perceive you to be. Heck, I’m nearly 50, shunned, divorced and have PTSD. But on here I feel I have found a group of people who except me for what I am and support me in my fading.
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Roman Castañeda says:
May 3, 2016 at 7:10 pm
Like many of us here, I wish my family would finally wake up from this indoctrination. But they cling on to the teachings much like we cling on to our beliefs.
I came out to my family recently and I understand where they are coming from, but I think it’s finally time I follow their advice and travel the world, or at least the American continent. It’s something I’ve always wanted to do.
Stepping away from them will take it’s toll, and I don’t feel right telling you to rush into anything. Just take your time, but don’t delay. This is your life you are talking about.
If you need someone to talk to, find me as ColorTheWindGreen on Kik. I’d be glad to be of service any way possible
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Cedars says:
May 4, 2016 at 12:20 am
I feel for your predicament. It sounds like you need to be extremely patient and figure out an exit strategy. I hope everything works out for you eventually, even though it will doubtless take lots of time and more than a few tears. The end result, being free from living a lie, will be worth it all.
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Will says:
May 4, 2016 at 6:55 am
I hope you someday find the courage to come out. You will need build a world outside the walls of the kingdom hall because you will be shunned if you intend to live how you feel. It’s very lonely for those who left, straight or gay. You seem to be a relatively young person, so you will need to do it before you get too old. You don’t want to feel you wasted your life away. Please do your research on how to minimize any emotional trauma. Best to you!!!
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Kaytee says:
May 4, 2016 at 7:19 am
It breaks my heart that you have to fear rejection from your parents, just over being who you are! It seems almost everyone here has either faced that reality, or will need to face it at some point. You’re not alone! Whatever you choose to do, I know I’m not the only one who would happily give an ex-JW young person a family to be part of.
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Markie says:
May 4, 2016 at 7:35 pm
Your only 23. Go to college and get a degree. Maybe your parents are more open minded then you think. If it ever comes down to a choice between my children and the organization, I would always choose my children. Your parents probably feel the same way.
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Claire Gorman says:
May 3, 2016 at 7:17 pm
My brother is gay. He tried to hide it but could deny his feelings no longer. He is not evil or insane. He would move the earth for anyone that needed help and wears his heart on his sleeve for his family. We love him and understand his orientation. The thought that this kind and loving man could be stripped of a reward in the next life due to a character trait that he did not choose does not sit well. I know we have a God of justice who would not take such action, despite what Watchtower propaganda would have you believe. We all know Caleb and Sophia are bull****. Just another Goebbels invention to keep the masses subserviant. High horse now vacated. Over and out. Peace to all readers.
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Winston Smith says:
May 3, 2016 at 7:58 pm
I am pretty certain that my brother in law is gay. He has never come out and denies it profusely, but he has been caught with gay porn enough times and the excuses he gives for it are pretty weak. He is now 50 and has never been able to live his own life. He has been trapped in this cult and victimized by their abuse. I feel sorry for him. He grew up in an extremely abusive household (his father was an elder and one of the most horrible abusers I have ever known).
WS
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Vincent Deporter says:
May 4, 2016 at 5:56 am
That is a horrible story. What a waste of life… My heart goes out to him. My fist goes out to his father.
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Sharon Christensen says:
May 3, 2016 at 9:00 pm
The other day, my husband and daughter were reading the Bible acct of where some were condemning a person for being adulterous…Jesus answer to them…if anyone of you is sinless…throw the first stone….appartly there was not a single one who was…so eventually they departed and left the person alone! Also, who does it say Jesus died for…what, if any stipulations? That ALL of you may be saved! Job said…before we were born, Jehovah knew our makeup…He is a Father of tender mercies, remembering …we are dust…We are all so fortunate to have Him to look out for us, He alone understands us, no religion has the right to pass judgement that would cause a person to feel unworthy of Gods love…to the point of taking ones own life. For with the judgement you are rendering….You will be judged….Jw.org…has two or more… sets of…weights…if you have $ for them, they approve of or turn a blind eye to all kinds if things….
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Average Joe says:
May 4, 2016 at 12:06 am
With regard your first Bible quote, the WTS have seen fit to remove that from their latest translation!!! Too much mercy being shown, more than likely!
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Winston Smith says:
May 4, 2016 at 12:56 pm
@AJ
I was likewise shocked when they eliminated that account from the “silver sword.” You’re probably right: too much mercy and not enough bigoted hatred along with self righteousness.
WS
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ClosetApostate says:
May 3, 2016 at 9:11 pm
Young children Caleb and Sophea’s age don’t have the comprehension adults have. My six year old nephew was asked if he knows what a demon is. He said, “A demon is a roller coaster ride at Great America Amusement Park.” And I laughed. Kid’s don’t fully understand things because they’re kids. Noone wanted to explain to him exactly what gays do. So he thinks the video is stupid. And he said so. Nobody wanted to explain it to him. Who on earth is so stupid that they made a video like that? HAHAHAHA. Oh my goodness they are getting dumber at the top. The shame is the harm they cause. That is terrible.
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Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:
May 4, 2016 at 4:13 am
They know what they are doing…
*** g92 2/22 p. 5 When to Start and How Much to Say ***
Another time the child may ask: “How does the daddy’s seed get into the mommy?” You could say, respectfully: “You know how a boy is made. He has a penis. A mother has an opening in her body that the penis fits into, and the seed is planted.
Compare with…
*** fl chap. 9 p. 124 par. 19 Training Children from Infancy ***
Later the child may ask, ‘How does the father’s seed get into the mother?’ You may simply say: ‘You know how a boy is. He has a penis. The girl has an opening in her body that it fits into. The seed is planted
You just switch from “girl” to “mother”!
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Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:
May 3, 2016 at 11:58 pm
Who thinks the Watchtower will never be ashamed of the homophobic child propaganda cartoon? I think the World does not understand the game and interests behind. The following is from the very publications of JWs…
*** w56 1/1 p. 6 Part 25—Expansion in Europe and Africa (1945-1955) ***
How have Jehovah’s witnesses coped with such a variety of European, Mohammedan and primitive pagan thinking?
We are all hit together… Europeans and “primitive pagans” in one basket, hit seriously! Empire rise and fall, time changes and people change! Yesterday’s allies are today’s enemies! I like to see how societies evolve!
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Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:
May 3, 2016 at 11:59 pm
Sorry, the question is “Who thinks the Watchtower will be ashamed of the homophobic child propaganda cartoon?”
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ruthlee says:
May 4, 2016 at 12:30 am
This comment is for ironic purposes only. Can you not see that the only people that are going to populate jdub paradise is the clones of Sophia and Caleb. Anyone who deviates from that fitted profile will get dinged out of the ring before close of day. So out with all you apostates, critical thinkers, sexual deviants, educated ,fat, old, demented, special needs, annoying and generally anyone who does not fit the perfect template. Dare I include mud born, celtic cursed, and jonny foreigner , when their money and usefulness runs out. This is because Jesus only came for the smug saved hard working boasting number toting self appointed self anointed jw.orgers. Sorry jc (not the other one) But your blood is Not acceptable for such sinners, we in the 21thC call gay. You come short with these people because they are not welcome in the garden of earthly delights aka the spiritual paradise or any future one.If this cult survives then they will be left with their perfect clones of Caleb and Sophia and wont that be grand, nice little cardboard cutouts of a shadow of humanity that they can tweak at will. Ooooh no arguments , no diversity, no shunning, and eventually no conversation. Afterall when everyone looks acts and thinks the same there will be nothing to say . Maybe if that miracle happens before Armageddon , they might use their lazy eyes to read the Bible and actually get the point of what humans are and what they do and how we are here to help each other out, not into a box of conformity. Just my opinion. Ruthlee
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Daniel Roberts says:
May 4, 2016 at 1:30 am
Good comment. You forgot bald people. In the new order all will have nice thick luxurious hair. Only one style though. AND NO BEARDS ALLOWED.
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Holy Connoli says:
May 4, 2016 at 4:12 am
To Daniel Roberts: Don’t forget No sideburns below the ear lobe and No Goatees either. Only and “Elder Mustache” is approved, and of course No tight pants! lol
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Daniel Roberts says:
May 4, 2016 at 5:18 am
Too right. I believe all the above exclusions to paradise to be completely reasonable too…
Along with:
Women shalt not weareth two legged garments and shalt remember they are not giraffes.
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Idontknowhatodo says:
May 5, 2016 at 7:53 am
Nor will they be Princesses in the new world…..anybody catch that in the morning worship last month…..
dee2 says:
May 5, 2016 at 8:06 pm
“Nor will they be Princesses in the new world”
Apparently God has told the GB that the 144,000 will be only males.
Queen Elsa says:
May 4, 2016 at 1:39 am
Now I know why my daughter mentioned someone at school being gay!!! This really pisses me off…
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Daniel Roberts says:
May 4, 2016 at 1:53 am
Should an organisation that blatantly spreads hate and intolerance propaganda be legally able to call itself a charity?
I remember as a child how the JW indoctrination made me think being Gay was the same as pedophilia. After I escaped the cult it took me years to adjust my thinking.
I thought all gay people were predators who would rape me and ‘turn me gay’ given the chance.
Bizarre how in reality, the organisation is actually protective of its pedophiles… yet active in condemning sex between two consenting adults of the same gender.
This animated hate crime is fashioned specifically to insidiously corrupt young minds.
It’s no different to the westboro baptist church’s ‘God hates fags’ slogan and their respective ignorant bigoted inhumane attitude to what is just another facet of human nature.
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Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:
May 4, 2016 at 2:45 am
*** w64 5/1 p. 261 The Bible—Is It a “White Man’s Book”? ***
Why do many feel the Bible is a “white man’s book”? Whose book is it? For whom is it?
“A RELIGION organized and backed by the devils for the purpose of making slaves of black mankind.” This is the way Christianity was described by the leader of a militant colored organization. The Bible? He called it a “poison book.”
While many in the realm of Christendom may consider this an extremist viewpoint, the hard fact remains that a large number of colored peoples throughout all of Africa and Asia, as well as colored peoples in other parts of the world, feel similarly. They consider Christianity a “white man’s religion” and the Bible a “white man’s book.”
Some would be quick to dismiss these conclusions of such colored peoples as prejudiced and without any basis. But are such viewpoints without basis? Why have many of the colored peoples of the world come to such a conclusion? And, of vital importance, is it true that the Bible, and hence Christianity, is for the white man principally?
Bible, whose book is that? The one who will answer that question will have opened a way to solving all these problems including indoctrination of young minds of all races.
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Sarah says:
May 4, 2016 at 3:09 am
Can someone tell me how old Sophia is? No child should be dealing with this sort of issue at such a young age. Children’s innocence should be protected. Let them grow up slowly.
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Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:
May 4, 2016 at 4:01 am
I do not know how Old Sophia is but I know Mary was 13 years when she was impregnated by Jehovah to bear Jesus… It happened to be a teen pregnancy…
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Idontknowhatodo says:
May 4, 2016 at 4:34 am
I love Lloyds repeated statement….. ‘How people choose to live their lives is none of our business’ this seems to be forgotten…as long as you are harming no-one tell them to mind their own business!
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chatpal says:
May 4, 2016 at 4:45 am
this certainly is not how subjects like this would have been dealt with 50 years ago. then things were avoided when there was no clear answer. the televangelism is sickening. I cant help but get the feeling there is a undercover group at the wt undermining the whole thing. how on earth can every one of the gb at the wt or anyone up there, watch these videos and equally approve of them?
how does teaching children this make them a better person or live a better life? it doesn’t. if anything the wt should be producing videos on how to be helpful to mommy and daddy , how to not fight with your sister, how to keep your room clean, how to help elderly ones in the cong. things kids actually UNDERSTAND. this is a subject Id never approach with my kids until they were like 16,lol. the short answer to a child that asks why so n so has two mommy’s, or dads, is that they are the best of friends and decided to live together and have children. to explain to a child [if they ask] why a persons physical does not match their actions, Id try explaining a simple scientific explanation. that does exist . i remember when the answer to uncomfortable questions was, well ‘we dont know, but Jehovah will do what he sees is best , as for us we have to be nice everyone’ ,lol
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JBob says:
May 12, 2016 at 1:11 pm
Wow, so does that mean if you have a d/f or “former associate” relative, you get shunned at the Kingdom Hall by the other adult-age children? The answer is Yes. It’s been the unwritten yet de facto doctrine for years. Typical group dynamics encouraged by relentless reviewing of the story of Miriam struck by leprosy, Korah and the earth opening up, etc. So, when J* starts hurling down fiery comets I don’t want to be standing near the “Family_Name_of_XJW”.
Stupid, divisive non-sense that is from the Divider and Trickster, Satan.
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JBob says:
May 12, 2016 at 1:25 pm
whoops, forgot I had one in the chamber… anyhoo, it appears the new “writing staff” at HQ is attempting to win over the ultra-conservatives who appear to be gaining dollars, book sales, and political clout. Plus, the conservative-to-moderate slicked-up evangelical mega-church crowd eating away at the Watchtower’s automated lake funds.
This also seems to be a defensive move by the HQ given it being inundated with pedophile cases–can you believe the denial the GB ran in one video [“false reports of toleration of pedophiles by our enemies”]? It’s in the court transcripts, you Luddite!
As I’ve always speculated here, it is that internal civil war (which probably equals the one we’re seeing in USA between the R’s and also the D’s own internal conflicts) between ultra-conservatives, conservatives and moderates (are there any progressive JW’s–yes, but most were purged in the 1980’s along with Raymond Franz) for “ruling power”. I also speculate that the GB–oft viewed as “the penultimate power” but really are figureheads–are doing their best to placate these ultra-conservatives lest they find themselves “Raymond Franz”-ed. Keep in mind that the Bethelites in critical research and writing departments have held those posts for years and the ears of figureheads for years. Unlike the past where a single President had authority to kick someone out, committees control everything, so the momentum of being “stuck in the theological rut” prevents any modern-thinking or progressive views from surfacing. Hey, they can even re-write the Bible and justify it without batting an eyelash.
I can only hope that the constant and unrelenting trudging of footsteps around the seemingly impenetrable and insurmountable Watchtower will end with a clarion trumpet bringing it down as my nightly dream a few years ago revealed–a tower crumbling down in ruins.
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Sam says:
May 4, 2016 at 4:48 am
My parents are JW, very homophobic and have been extremely nasty about my sisters recent wedding to her girlfriend.
This specific sister works in child protection, protecting small children from the most horrific sexual and physical abuse, and rebuilding their lives after abuse. Something which Jehovah is content to let happen.
But Jehovah is going to kill her because of who she loves.
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Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:
May 4, 2016 at 5:05 am
I am afraid the Watchtower is playing the game they know and are mocking us. For them, homosexuality is a result of quality of father-boy relationship…
*** g95 2/8 p. 16 Why Do I Have These Feelings? ***
A boy also needs acknowledgment, love, and approval from his father. (Compare Luke 3:22.) What can result when a father fails to give his child this needed attention? Emotional distress. Mental-health writer Joseph Nicolosi claims that male homosexuality is “almost always the result of problems in family relations, particularly between father and son.”
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Daniel Roberts says:
May 4, 2016 at 5:30 am
Yup. That’s exactly what makes someone choose to be gay. Not getting enough attention from their father.
Guess I should be gay then.
Hang on…
Maybe…..
I…..
Am….
….
Nope, still like boobs.
Reply
Winston Smith says:
May 4, 2016 at 1:00 pm
Man-boobs? Sorry I couldn’t resist. LOL
Reply
Daniel Roberts says:
May 5, 2016 at 2:28 am
Man boobs?
I suppose given that homosexuality is a choice… according to lesser educated people on this forum… I could LEARN to love man boobs. But only if they were particularly pert.
Reply
Vincent Deporter says:
May 4, 2016 at 5:47 am
Well done! Hopefully, this video will keep blazing thru the internet to warn people of how despicable this cult is, and homophobia in general.
Reply
Vincent Deporter says:
May 4, 2016 at 5:53 am
Just one more thing. I am amused at the likelihood that by the time Caleb & Sophia hit 18, they will have smartened up and left the cult… like most young ones today. Hehe!
Reply
Covert Fade says:
May 4, 2016 at 4:17 pm
Very true! 🙂
Reply
Gameisover says:
May 4, 2016 at 6:03 am
I don’t believe nurturing has anything to do with sexual orientation. Many children are brought up by only women in their household, and are not gay because of it.
Of the 7 things God hates , none have to do with sins of the flesh, but with lying, defaming, pride. (Watchtower!!)
Homosexuality is definitely not a choice. It just happens.
Society instead has a choice: To welcome and respect everyone they meet on this short trip that we call LIFE.
Reply
Winston Smith says:
May 4, 2016 at 5:38 pm
Gameisover,
Not sure if this is response to my comment earlier, but my references to nurture are not in specific regard to child rearing, but rather to the overall sum of experiences that shape our lives and as is defined by the nature vs nurture psychological argument. See additional info above.
WS
Reply
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← News Bulletin: Secret Watchtower documents once again demanded in new US court case.
The Friday Column: Leave no man behind →
Why Watchtower should be ashamed of its new homophobic child propaganda cartoon
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Posted on May 3, 2016
In the new cartoon, Sophia's mum teaches her how to be judgmental and bigoted
In the new cartoon, Sophia’s mum teaches her how to be judgmental and bigoted
It was in the summer 2012 that Jehovah’s Witnesses around the world were first introduced to Caleb and Sophia, the Governing Body’s new animated poster kids.
Their first cartoon adventures, which were distributed in DVDs at conventions and on the organization’s JW.org website, caused outrage even among many non-JWs. Watchtower’s blatant attempts to indoctrinate children using fear and paranoia created a wave of dismay that will have gone largely unnoticed by most ordinary JWs.
Since they first burst on to our screens, Caleb and Sophia have been taught by their troubled parents that Jehovah is pedantic enough to hate certain kinds of plastic action figures, that he wants kids to give their ice cream money to Watchtower, and that failing to pay sufficient attention at kingdom hall meetings can carry the death penalty.
But Watchtower apparently isn’t done with stripping JW kids of all innocence and individuality. Now the Governing Body wants them to challenge any classmates with gay or lesbian parents, and remind them that if mommy and mommy (or daddy and daddy) don’t change their ways they will lose their tickets to paradise.
It’s hard to know where to start in verbalizing one’s revulsion at the proud ignorance and homophobia on open display in this CGI monstrosity, but I will do my best.
Firstly, Sophia’s bewilderingly-orange mother manipulates her daughter with a metaphor that entirely misrepresents both homosexuality and Watchtower’s views regarding it. Sophia is asked to picture a man traveling with a bag, the contents of which trigger the airport security systems because he is carrying a prohibited item.
Homosexuality is explained as being the forbidden item the man must surrender before being allowed to travel on to his desired destination: paradise earth.
The video presents a misleading metaphor that misrepresents both homosexuality and Watchtower's teachings about what awaits homosexuals
The video presents a misleading metaphor that misrepresents both homosexuality and Watchtower’s teachings about what awaits homosexuals
Anybody remotely in tune with reality understands that homosexuality is not a “choice,” as so often portrayed by Christian fundamentalists. Straight people are born straight, and gay people are born gay. Just as it would be outrageous to ask a straight person to start being gay, it is impossible to expect a gay person to live a lie and stop being who they are. And yet this is what fanatics like Watchtower demand of them.
Secondly, the metaphor implies that if the traveler chooses against surrendering the forbidden item, the worst that will happen is that his ticket will be cancelled and he will be forced to browse the duty free before hailing a cab and making his way back to the hotel. But that is not how it works according to Jehovah’s Witness teachings.
If the metaphor were accurately and fully followed through, we would see the traveller being bundled away by security and thrown into a 1940s cattle cart, along with all others deemed undesirable by the Governing Body, before being dispatched to the great extermination camp of Armageddon.
This is not a case of “follow us, or don’t fly,” this is a case of “follow us, or die.”
But this doomsday aspect of Jehovah’s Witness theology is so repugnant to most ordinary people that Watchtower must do its best to obfuscate it wherever possible.
Even most JWs you may encounter on the street, if pressed on the matter, will deny that literally billions of people, including children, are in line for mass slaughter if their hopes and expectations come to fruition. Their continued state of subservience to their religion depends on them not thinking things through to their fullest, most grisly conclusion.
All that deception and mischaracterization aside, arguably the most repugnant and disturbing aspect of this vile cartoon is that it sets out to recruit JW children to impose the organization’s homophobic bigotry on any classmates who happen to have gay or lesbian parents.
When I was growing up as a JW I recall being indoctrinated into believing that homosexuality was to be condemned. But I don’t remember once being told to actively seek out homosexuals, or children of homosexuals, to badger them with my beliefs. All that, apparently, has now changed. Watchtower has thrown its hat in with all the other sickly Christian evangelicals whose crusade is to stamp out homosexuality wherever it surfaces.
If you want to see what the end game is of preaching hate in this way, you need only watch the documentary “God Loves Uganda,” which is currently running on Netflix. It shows how U.S. evangelicals have taken a loathsome message that has zero credibility in their homeland, and cynically flooded Uganda with it – a country whose populace have limited access to education and are therefore easy pickings for those who spew ignorance and bigotry.
And before I am accused of trying to persuade people towards atheism by making this film recommendation, I should point out that two heroes of the film are Reverend Kaoma and Bishop Senyonjo. By the end of the film, I wanted to reach into my screen and hug them both.
Despite being Christians they could plainly see the real danger posed by evangelical homophobic fanaticism, and were doing their best in the face of unspeakable brutality to urge love, respect and tolerance.
Now it seems Watchtower, having already embraced televangelism, are also now quite happy to count themselves among the small-minded homophobic hate-mongers who stain our society. And rather than lead the hateful charge themselves, the likes of Tony Morris and his Governing Body cronies are content to hide behind a newly-formed army of school-age foot-soldiers who will take the heat for them.
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Further reading…
◾Metro article
◾Independent article
◾Inquisitr article
◾The Friendly Atheist article
◾Rawstory article
◾Complex article
◾Wetpaint article
◾Pink News article
◾Wonkette article
◾Gaystarnews article
◾SDGLN.com article
◾Same Same article
◾Newnownext article
◾The Daily Dot article
◾The Stranger article
◾The Gaily Grind article
◾Dangerous Minds article
◾TheNewCivilRightsMovement.com article
◾Progressive Secular Humanist article
◾JoeMyGod.com article
◾Watchtower’s New “Toy Story” – What Parents Need to Know
◾Sparlock a year later: Non-JWs in uproar on YouTube
◾Cough up kids! Watchtower needs your ice cream money
◾“Pay attention or die” – A disturbing glimpse of JW child indoctrination at work
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← News Bulletin: Secret Watchtower documents once again demanded in new US court case.
The Friday Column: Leave no man behind →
325 Responses to Why Watchtower should be ashamed of its new homophobic child propaganda cartoon
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Tara says:
May 4, 2016 at 6:27 am
I would actually be quite happy in marrying a gay guy because the ones I know are loving and kind. My ex was sexually abusive, mentally abusive and narcissistic. I would love the companionship of someone who didn’t see me as just something to screw.
I have G and L family members and they are lovely. I mentioned them a few times when I was ‘in’ and actually had jw’s say ‘oh I am so sorry, that must be awful for you….’
Now mt granddaughter, she’s 7, will be exposed to this. I have already passed the video on to my son and told him to pass it to his lawyer (who was married to a jw). Hopefully it can be used when they go to court, in some way.
Reply
Twmack says:
May 4, 2016 at 7:42 am
“Methinks they do protest too much”. Recent verbal
attacks on homosexuals ( Tight pants designers and
wearers), And now this thoughtless and humanity
hating video, directed at young undeveloped minds.
It makes one wonder if those who authorised this trashy
product. are not in the closet themselves.
As Lloyd has shown in his assessment of the video.
Citing the Bible as the absolute authority on lifestyle
leads into a minefield of contradictions.
Reply
Winston Smith says:
May 4, 2016 at 5:43 pm
Twmack
Wouldn’t surprise me if you are correct. I mean think about how hard they slam masturbation and I know based on the reports of numerous bethelites that it is very prevalent at the headquarters. I have also heard that they outlawed wrestling and play fighting at bethel because some of young men were becoming aroused by it.
WS
Reply
Chiafade says:
May 5, 2016 at 11:36 pm
“Don’t get involved with wrestling in your underwear brothers. One minute your wrestling on the floor the all of a sudden you’re a homo”. – George Couch deceased governing body member.
When I was a dub a bethelite in my hall told me about that one. It was in their Monday night lecture. My brother who’s also a bethelite confirmed that story for me.
Reply
Fooledmeonce says:
May 6, 2016 at 12:29 am
Yes, that is very true! I know the two Bethelites that were disfellowshipped for homosexuality after they were wrestling and it led to sex. Obviously it was the ‘wrestling in underwear’ that was the ‘problem’. But that’s what the small-minded morons thought.
Reply
KinseyScale6 says:
May 7, 2016 at 8:34 pm
WS – it’s this simple causal-reasoning that contributed to my awakening, plus having analytical thinking somewhere north of average. It reflects a lack of wanting to understand something and participants easily dismissed with labels as aberrant, evil and disgusting.
So, to think individuals are born homosexual or have genetic disposition, the concept of the Kinsey Scale, Gender Dysphoria, or Bisexuality exists, even as phases of sexual development and maturity–natural–is not up for debate in the Watchtower world (outside the Watchtower world this debate over homosexuality causes has been ranging since the 1950’s). It doesn’t exist, and if it is in the world it is considered evil.
It’s as if any “joy” and “entertainment” from sex and genitals is a “deadly sin” (lust) and “sex organs” (Watchtower speak) are procreative instruments–tools.
The Watchtower’s literature on sex turns it into a clinical experiment in procreation; gender into a boot camp on dominance and submission, and childhood into a nightmare of fear and striving to please You-know-who, who may or may not ever be totally pleased, so work harder and harder.
Conveniently they do adopt the psychology of the past which described homosexuality as mental illness yet downplaying any benefit of modern psychology and psychiatry in treatment of severe mental illness and anxiety.
Reply
Kaytee says:
May 4, 2016 at 7:48 am
My husband and I watched the above takedown of this horrible video without knowing our 7 y/o daughter was paying attention. We paused after it was over and asked her what she thought. She replied, “I wish I had two moms!” then, looking at my husband, “can I have two dads too?” We looked at each-other and cracked up! Homophobia is learned, it’s not something children do naturally.
Until just a few weeks ago, we mindlessly made our kids watch these videos. Thankfully, it now appears we suck at child indoctrination. I was so afraid for so long that my children wouldn’t decide to be JWs. The most wonderful part of waking up for me has been the peace of knowing I’ll never have to choose between them and Watchtower. I was always pretty sure Watchtower would lose that fight, which made me feel inadequate and sinful. Imagine that! I felt the fact that I wouldn’t be able to shun my children meant I could never please God! Such a messed-up world view.
If we hadn’t made our minds up before now, this video would have been the last straw anyway. Hopefully, there are many other Witnesses that feel the same way. I can’t wait until my husband finds a job with a non-JW company, so we can cut ties completely!
Reply
Cedars says:
May 4, 2016 at 8:03 am
That was an amazing comment. Thanks for sharing! 🙂
Reply
Kaytee says:
May 4, 2016 at 11:46 am
Thank you! I’ve spent the last 10 days here and on jwfacts. I feel like I’ve dived into ice water!
I watched the video you made for your lovely little girl twice with my husband and youngest (she insisted on an encore). It’s beautiful, and how we feel about our children.
How anybody could look at a little girl’s drawing of her parents hand-in-hand in a sunny meadow and see something wrong (as Sophia apparently did) has always been beyond me! What is the end-goal? Breaking up a happy family simply because the parents share a biological sex? No, that is the exact opposite of loving.
Reply
Cedars says:
May 4, 2016 at 12:41 pm
I can totally relate to how bracing it is to first start foraging online for decent info. I’m also glad you liked my video for Jessica. Well done for finding freedom, and immediately passing it on to your kids. It’s the best gift you can give them! 🙂
Reply
Idontknowhatodo says:
May 5, 2016 at 7:47 am
I relate to that amazing feeling that you have when you start on the path of freeing your mind…I devoured everything especially this site and jwfacts…then I watched all of the jw part of the Australian Royal Commission and I have never looked back… kind people on this site encouraged me to take it steady and fade because my husband and children are still deeply ‘in’ and the invaluable advice off Lloyd to have a strategy!… so important it is my mantra…I have a part time job now and am studying for a degree..Im still fading I havn’t reported for 6 months and fortunately though my husband is rver hopeful I will go back he doesnt pressure me…I will always be grateful to this site and Lloyd..at some points I was visiting it 4 to 5 times a day… it kept me sane!… we are all with you
Reply
Kaytee says:
May 5, 2016 at 1:23 pm
Thank you! Everyone here is so kind and supportive! Needless to say, this community is nothing like the hateful, bitter apostates they talk about.
I’m glad I’m not the only one obsessed with factual information at first! It feels like I have to counter every single bit of misinformation, no matter how small.
Cappytan says:
May 5, 2016 at 5:32 am
I loved your comment.
I wish you were my sister-in-law. I really miss my niece and nephews.
Reply
Kaytee says:
May 5, 2016 at 12:31 pm
I’m so sorry for the loss of your family! It’s agonizing having to choose between ones true self and family. Nobody should be forced into such a choice.
Reply
Kaytee says:
May 5, 2016 at 1:38 pm
I wanted to add: I wish I was your sister-in-law too! My family will be shunning us, I’m sure, as soon as they know. It’s an evil policy!
Reply
Queen Elsa says:
May 5, 2016 at 11:12 am
I sincerely wish my husband would see the madness. I envy you…
Reply
Kaytee says:
May 5, 2016 at 12:56 pm
Apparently my husband awoke a few years ago, and was hanging on because he didn’t want to “rock the boat.” I had no idea at the time, but I can see now how he was subtly trying to plant doubts.
The thing that finally got to me wasn’t “apostate” at all (or I would never have looked at it), but was an article about “shame-based systems.” It was a shocking read for me, because it describes almost perfectly what life as a JW is actually like! I thought it was describing problems with other religions, so I was okay with reading it.
The article is here: http://www.truthandgracecounseling.com/uploads/WHAT_IS_A_SHAME-BASED_SYSTEM.doc
It’s funny, but I guess I was kind of “won without a word.” I sincerely hope your husband has a similar epiphany soon!
Reply
Phil says:
May 7, 2016 at 5:58 am
Wonderful comment Kaytee.
Like your husband I had doubts most of my life but couldn’t bring myself to ‘rock the boat’ as you say. However it finally took a moral issue to do it!
Someone I cared about greatly did something that would get them dis-fellowshiped because of a bad situation they had found themselves in. I trawled through the literature looking for loop holes, but there weren’t any.
Basically the wtbts’s stance was simple, if I was an Israelite I would be expected to take this person outside the camp and stone them to death !!!
Well that was something I could not do!! I realized that I would rather take on Jehovah with bare fists than do that to someone I cared about.
So I had come to the conclusion that I had MUCH higher moral standards than ‘Jehovah’. With that realization it was easy to walk away from such evil nonsense!!
Reply
Twmack says:
May 4, 2016 at 8:09 am
Bible approved lifestyle.– Girls, if there’s no other
man around to get you in the family way “Get your
father to do the job,
It’s OK if he’s a righteous man like Lot. A man who
who was sick of the depraved things going off in
Sodom and Gomorrah. 2 Pet, 2:7.
Reply
Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:
May 4, 2016 at 8:45 am
The Watchtower will never be ashamed… They still have a pen to write about the secrets of the Kingdom…
*** g81 11/8 p. 21 Is the Bible a White Man’s Book? ***
European nations, although claiming to be Christian, have quarreled and fought right through their turbulent history, this strife reaching a climax in this century in World Wars I and II, and now are making frantic preparations for World War III. And instead of proclaiming God’s kingdom, they look to a man-made political organization, the United Nations, as man’s only hope.
Reply
KinseyScale6 says:
May 7, 2016 at 9:15 pm
@haki – ah, yes, the 80’s when they (and the other fundamentalists) were striving to reach out to the minority neighborhoods since the “white men (& women)” weren’t buying (ie: sending donations) this κραπ any more. Jim Baker & wife, that whole Heritage USA thingy, then Tilton & Marte, Roberts Sr (give me money or I will die), etc–go figure..
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/televangelist-tilton-wife-to-separate/article_e91dcce0-ed42-50d5-baa4-875cf8e6bb22.html
Reply
Bridgette says:
May 4, 2016 at 8:52 am
I have an infant and even though I am still trapped in the org, I resolved to never show her this crap while I was pregnant. I’m hoping this video wakes up others, including my husband. Ridiculous garbage!
Reply
Searcher says:
May 4, 2016 at 9:28 am
Whatever happened to the words of Christ, “He who is sinless cast the first stone.” Oh yeah, I forgot! They conveniently removed that from there newest ‘revision’ of the bible, because it hits this kind of propaganda right between the eyes.
As far a Sophia ‘witnessing’ to the child with two moms, I hope that Sophia’s mom teaches her how to duck a punch along with it. I see one kid who loves her family very much being very defensive about such a witness. Yep! Sophia might well learn what ‘persecution’ is all about when trying to push your views on someone else.
Reply
Freed Mason says:
May 5, 2016 at 3:07 am
Exactly – the freedom of speech in most lands that allows you to ‘preach’ from door to door, hold public conventions and gatherings also allows people of different sexual orientations the same freedom of speech, belief and actions. When you push your beliefs on other people – especially you own and other people’s children (who have no idea of what they are signing up to) expect a very strong push back.
Reply
Plopboy says:
May 4, 2016 at 9:34 am
Seems to me they are simply following what the bible says about homosexuality so your problem is more with the scriptures than JWs in this case.
Reply
Big B says:
May 4, 2016 at 12:19 pm
A question for you Plopboy; If medical science can prove that people are born with a propensity of being “gay” (a gay gene if you will) why should God punish them with destruction if they have no choice in the matter. Can a leopard change his spots or could he naturally eat grass like a bull?
I say, let a perfect God and the “Son of Man” judge people without our imperfect interpretation and renderings of the Hebrew Scriptures. Now that a loving God has removed the obligation of the Mosaic Law from Christians we can approach him with the ransom. God loves sinners (not their sinning) otherwise the sending of his Son would be for naught.
I think we can all agree that we live where the strict interpretation of the Torah, or even the Islamic Sir-ea Law, is not followed because there would be few individuals that could stand up to its strict standards.
As far as I’m concerned J.W.’s who are allowing shenanigans concerning their pedophile protection policy’s to continue (with their ridiculous two witness rule) poses more danger to not only those in the Kingdom Hall but places the entire community at risk. Why? Because the elders will not report the offender to local authorities. In my opinion, this poses more of a risk to society than what sexual acts consenting adults care to perform in the privacy of their homes.
A better, more instructional cartoon would have been to show the children telling their parents of “improper touching” while in field service by an elder. Then showing the parents contacting the Local Authorities after nothing is done by the congregational body of elders. (Let’s put this matter in Jehovah’s hands). This would be more believable than the “two mommies” scenario in my book. Yeah, fat chance that ever happens. 🙂
Reply
Covert Fade says:
May 4, 2016 at 1:51 pm
Watchtower: “Consensual gay sex is WRONG! Now come over here and help me not report all these pedophiles.”
Reply
Tilli says:
May 4, 2016 at 10:32 pm
I’m curious where the Bible says the stuff shown in this video.
Reply
Darth Fader says:
May 4, 2016 at 10:26 am
In the 1930’s and 40’s the Nazis used the same child indoctrination techniques to dehumanize their imagined opponents, the Jews in particular. The Nazis printed story books and made cartoons for their little ones to poison their minds and make it OK to kill these demonized ones. We all know what this type of child indoctrination leads to.
The unfortunate result of this will be that JW kids will become the ones that will be persecuted for this stance taken by the Governing Body. Expect to see Young ones trotted out at future conventions and assemblies to tell how heroically they took a beating at school while taking a stand for the CEO’s of a Billion Dollar Publishing Corporation.
Reply
SuzI Drums says:
May 4, 2016 at 12:25 pm
This, even more than their previous child-targeted videos, shows how they are usurping the parents’ rights to exercise their best judgment as to what, when and how to teach their children. The assumption that these videos are safe for children to watch on their own could leave parents with nasty surprises in the form of calls from schools, angry parents and even lawyers.
Reply
PeterB says:
May 4, 2016 at 12:38 pm
This comment will not go over well with this community Mr. Scott. I know what you are trying to express, I feel the same way. But this community is focused on one thing, and that is to expose JW as a hopelessly failing- evil cult. (This community takes advantage of “freedom of speech” but doesn’t realize that the USA government along with their elite buddies have been inching closer and closer to their plans of removing “free speech” and removing most of the constitution in order to bring in a “New World Order”. Hellooooo…9/11 was totally an inside job. This community still watches mainstream news outlets and believes that one day mankind will make beautiful changes…LOL Why the extensive parentheses you might ask…because knowing the facts about a shadow government will allow one question and investigate their current stance even deeper.) I have recently decided to take up studying with JWs again in spite of all I read on here. Let me tell you, I hate their policies regarding the handling of abuse cases. There is something dead wrong about that. But, I already knew this and still have a passion for studying the bible with them specifically. Here’s why. (The following are mainly for those who still believe on God) As I mentioned before, most of my spare time from the ages of 19 until now (37), have been studying religion. It has always intrigued me. It always made sense to me that “IF” there was a God, and “IF” there was an inspired book to lead people in a direction HE desired, and “IF” there was a “way”, and IF there all this that we see since man has fucked up in the Garden of Eden is just an alternate world that should have never taken place to begin with…and IF these are the “last days” (hell yea they are, I don’t need religion to tell me that)…”IF” all these are to be taken seriously…then (if you minus the top things that bother you about Watchtower/JWs), I come to the conclusion that this is THE ORGANIZATION that tried it’s best in these “days” (20&21st century) to round up as many people as possibly by way of a big ass preaching & teaching (door to door) campaign that this world will never see again. That one thing alone made me seek them out again. JW is an Org that is full of problems, full of sinful leaders, prideful and clueless sheeple, among other things that bring pain to thousands within it’s walls. But, after studying with other religions (including independent folks that just like to read in to the scriptures), I know there is corruption everywhere. But i believe God looks down and sees everything! He knows what is flawed. I’ll bet Moses was doing all kinds of things exactly like the JWs Governing Body. I’ll bet Korah in the bible had even more garbage to lay out there against Moses than we read in the Bible. But, still Moses was the one. The GB is one hell of a sinful group. But I believe the work of JWs is proof enough that they are special. Just simply teaching the “good news” in the unprecedented scale that we’ve scene is good enough. Everything that’s wrong with the ORG…God will deal with it. But according to what I read…this group had one job. One main job. They have done it. Now getting back to the government and the Gay movement…It’s all by design. Do you know what’s in your tap water? Food? Do you know what planes are leaving in the sky for us to breath? Listen to Alex Jones on infowars.com You’ll understand. So anyway, I am at work typing away…and now im rushing my thoughts but- well the bible is clear on the subject of homosexuality. That’s not to say we must treat them unkindly though.
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PeterB says:
May 4, 2016 at 2:11 pm
*correction in my horrible grammar* It always made sense to me that “IF” there was a God, and “IF” there was an inspired book to lead people in a direction HE desired, and “IF” there was a “way”, and IF all this that we see since the beginning of time when man fucked up in the Garden of Eden is just an alternate world that should never have even taken place to begin with…and IF these are the “last days” (hell yea they are, I don’t need religion to tell me that)…
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Grace says:
May 4, 2016 at 3:25 pm
So in your conspiracy, how do you know if the Watchtower wasn’t set up by these ‘shadow men’ as a way to draw people in & create a sheeplike attitude that would be easy to manoeuvre into the “new world order”. Is it coincidental that the Watchtower uses the same symbolic language that the Freemasons did?
Like the following:
“Jehovah”
“The Watchtower”
“Millenium Dawn”
“The Golden Age”
“New World”
“New System”
Elders
Anointed
Admonish
Brotherhood
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Outandabout says:
May 6, 2016 at 2:35 am
And how do you know that Satan hasn’t taken over the Watchtower (seven headed beast and seven GB members) and is laughing his head off at the thought of taking another eight million unsuspecting souls on judgment day? Everything is a conspiracy if that’s the way you want it. I can recommend a good Therapist if you like. Can be reached on 0800 iamnuts.
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Big B says:
May 4, 2016 at 5:05 pm
PeterB;
So glad to read your comments. My, my… so many “if’s and’s and but’s”. I have a question for you my friend, which also happens to be the same question I asked my Elders after 55 years of association before fading, namely; if Jehovah is infallible (the epitome of perfection), and the Holy Spirit emanating from Jehovah is also perfect, then it stands to reason that although written by imperfect men his word is also perfect. Yes?
However, his so called “spirit directed organization” (Watchtower) has been wrong so many times it staggers the imagination. Can the Holy Spirit be wrong? Not according to the Inspired Word! So if the Watchtower has it and we all agree the Holy Spirit emanates from God, I suggest to you that not only do they not have it, they have never had it.
For example; the three Cadillac driving, three home owing, drunken sot President of the Society, J.F Rutherford’s “Million’s now living will never die” speeches. This nonsense of his was pronounced back in the late 1920’s early 1930’s. Where are those millions now? Dead as a door nail.
Also his “Advertise, Advertise, Advertise the King and his Kingdom” oh, and while your cold calling the public from door to door, be sure to sell my books. He never went door to door once but had no problem sending others out dispensing his nonsense. And what Pulitzer prize, N.Y. Times best sellers they were to. Such winning titles such as: “Children”, “Enemies”, etc. You won’t find many of these ‘one word wonders’ around anymore.
Also, and I personally lived through this one, namely the mantra “Door to Door in ’74 to be alive in ’75”. If they had been telling the “Truth” we would be 41 years into the New System by this October. Well come to find out (New Light) we are not in the LAST DAYS but “the beginnings of the pangs of distress”.
Also with the July 15, 2013 Watchtower, C.T. Russell and followers have been proven not to be Gods instrument for dispensing spiritual food.
Don’t get me started on the fact that Jehovah’s Witnesses now have a “Rapture” as shown in the same Watchtower (see the chart).
This “New Light” can be interpreted to show that Armageddon is a long distance away, more so than anyone now living will see. In other words, the “Great Crowd” who are to survive are not even born yet! That assumes that Armageddon is not symbolic of something else in a book written in signs and symbols.
Because of their outing, by the Guardian newspaper, in reference to their membership as a NGO (Non Governmental Organization) in the United Nations, which they were members of for 10 years, they now suffer the extreme consequences of Jehovah’s displeasure.
This is because they (the Watchtower) themselves identified the Scarlet Colored Beast in 1942-43 by then President N.H. Knorr. This idea was carried over in the Society’s 1963 book “Babylon the Great has fallen; God’s Kingdom Rules”. How could God’s spirit directed organization involve themselves with Satan’s organization, you might ask? AS WELL YOU SHOULD!
I challenge you to pose these questions to your body of elders and see what happens to you. Especially since you are now corresponding on an “apostate site.”
As a closing thought, as spoken on the site exjw critical thinker on youtube, “better to have “questions” you cannot answer than “answers” you cannot question”. 🙂
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PeterB says:
May 4, 2016 at 5:57 pm
Gods people throughout the bible were never perfect like god is. Nowhere in the bible does it say that in the last days God would have a perfect Org. Nowhere!
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Big B says:
May 4, 2016 at 6:55 pm
PeterB: Nowhere does the Bible say that he would have an earthly Organization either or “a faithful and discrete slave that everyone will be accountable to” or one mention of a “Paradise Earth” either! Type that on your Watchtower CD. Rom Library, just as I have, and see how many times that expression comes up in the Sacred Scriptures. (Spoiler Alert!) Not ONCE. Surprised?
Both my parents, all of my aunts and uncles followed this cult since the 1950’s only to die discouraged, disappointed, unfulfilled, and disillusioned. But I’ll bet one thing “Paradise Earth” and “Armageddon” are pipe dreams. And what is at the end of a pipe? A whole lot of nothing (maybe excrement).
Again, do your research and see for yourself or you will waste many opportunities for personal fulfillment working for
a “doomsday cult” like I did for over 55 years. The final decision where to place your trust, my friend, is yours but my “ask your elders challenge still stands, if you’re up to it”.
Good Luck and keep searching. The real Truth is out there or not? 🙂
Ejecting to Sanity says:
May 6, 2016 at 10:14 pm
A Caution with Hood Intentions-
As you are around meetings more you are bound to hear the phrases ‘a little leaven spoils the whole loaf..’ and. ‘ If an apple had one drop if poison (or a cup of water had a drop) , would you drink it?’
Over and over and over , JWS are taught to automatically reject other religions as false due to lack of perfection. Satanic.
Therefore Members are drilled to agree with inevitable conclusion:
If the Borg is teaching the truth, if I have found true worship..then..
The Borg is not satanic.
The Borg is not false.
Therefore, lucky members, the Borg is perfect.
No, not the men…But their printed words, their policies, interpretations, their discipline, hierarchy, judgements, etc…perfect.
You must be in agreement with absolutely everything the GB and corporation does, says, prints, thinks..
Ridiculing and judging other faiths, ministers, and members privately, in comments and (amazingly enough) from the platform is common and accepted.
Very recent experience – straight from the platform. Within the last 6 mo. Brother Elder ridiculed a local church because they had an ad in the paper for a part time secretary. How shameful that they had to pay someone and not have a volunteer. Obviously, we ALL KNOW that this is an immediate sign of false worship, right?? The many faces of judgement…
As far as overlooking or ‘waiting on Jehovah’ to deal with the pedophile pestilence, the blackmail of shunning, the homophobia, the UN scandal, the Malawi/Mexico unjustice, the Idol worship of GB and JW.org, and the many other Secrets…you should remember that a good JW is taught that any connection to a sinner or sinful group is equally as guilty. And that silent observation and/or agreement is indeed a sin and unacceptable.
I understand that one wants to look for the good and let the bad settle, but as we’ve heard a 1000 times ‘Get out of her!!’
Ejecting to Sanity says:
May 6, 2016 at 10:26 pm
They definitely were not perfect people, agreed. It’s not the Bible that is demanding perfection. It’s the Borg, the JB, the WT that elevates the leaders, the policies. I’ve left not to leave God or the Bible but to leave this sad center of dubious character…
Searcher says:
May 9, 2016 at 10:22 am
@PeterB,
I read your post and said to myself, “Uhhhh, he’s kidding! Right?” I respect your right to an opinion, and you should have a right to express it. You seem like a good person with good intentions. I appreciate that you care for our well being by sharing your post. However, after reading it, I think you need to step back a bit and reflect on what you have said. I would highly recommend watching Dr. Michael Shermer’s, “Baloney Detection Kit” video on You-Tube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJmRbSX8Rqo.
As far as shadow governments and airplanes spraying mind-control gas, see a therapist and stop listening to people stirring up such nonsense. You want freedom taken away by a shadowy organization, then just follow the Watchtower! They’ll make sure you claim crazy stuff.
Just relax man, enjoy life, enjoy freedom, and don’t get jazzed up so much from less credible agendas.
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Gorbatchov says:
May 4, 2016 at 1:29 pm
The video is going viral in Netherlands nationsl media. The branch office gave an official reaction that the video is for JW children and interested and not for the general public. It’s not intended for offending people. If it does on large scale it could be concidered to take it offline. It is out freedom of speech was his final conclusion.
People reacted they will report the video to the local police.
So, bad imago media for jw.
Gorby
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Covert Fade says:
May 4, 2016 at 1:53 pm
Wow, they actually used the “it’s not for you, it’s for our children only” line?
Yeah, THAT doesn’t sound sketchy at ALL! 😀 😀 Sounds like perfectly reasonable non-cult behaviour. Heh heh. Oh well, I guess that’s what happens when your PR team didn’t get a higher education…
Can you share a link? I’d love to see it
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mitch67 says:
May 5, 2016 at 3:08 am
well do they not encourage people to get on their website and see those cartoons?
oddly it is not on the German website..
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mitch67 says:
May 5, 2016 at 3:10 am
but it is on their officilal english language site which they advertise for in public.
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JBob says:
May 7, 2016 at 9:24 pm
@Covert Fade – That’s what the Bethelites at HQ–er, district overseers–dang it!!–Gov Body members told Netherlands to say.
However, “is for JW children and interested and not for the general public” — so, Sophia should just watch the video and not actually try to convince her schoolmate that her parents are evil and will be “overcooked weiners” after Armageddon?
Did I get that TMorris quote right? So, I guess Jehovah is back to using hell fire? By cracky those old rural Baptists were right, “no more water, but by the fire this time”..
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Gorbatchov says:
May 4, 2016 at 2:18 pm
@Covert fade, here are some links of the national media in the Netherlands covering the news about the jw.org video:
http://www.rtlnieuws.nl/editienl/jehovas-maken-kinderfilm-homos-niet-welkom-het-paradijs
http://www.trouw.nl/tr/nl/4492/Nederland/article/detail/4294749/2016/05/04/COC-boos-op-Jehova-s-om-kinderfilmpje.dhtml
http://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland/kritiek-op-jehovah-s-getuigen-om-anti-homo-kinderfimpje~a4294809/
http://www.ad.nl/ad/nl/1012/Nederland/article/detail/4294662/2016/05/04/Commotie-om-video-Jehovah-s-over-homohuwelijk.dhtml
http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/25726326/__Jehova_s__LHTB_s_naar_de_hel__.html
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Covert Fade says:
May 4, 2016 at 2:50 pm
Wonderful! Thank you 😀
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Average Joe says:
May 5, 2016 at 12:06 am
Dank u wel Gorby!
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JWIntellect says:
May 4, 2016 at 6:24 pm
This is not a case of “follow us, or don’t fly,” this is a case of “follow us, or die.”
I loved this line!
Excellent article, as always, Mr. Evans.
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Markie says:
May 4, 2016 at 8:11 pm
For what it’s worth, there is a Reverend named Vernon Dozier that uses electroshock therapy and aversion technics to cure homosexuality. I remember he cured one fellow named Warren Benman right on the Phil Hendrie Show.
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Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:
May 4, 2016 at 11:20 pm
Wonderfully said, This is not a case of “follow us, or don’t fly,” this is a case of “follow us, or die.”
Is history repeating itself?
*** w60 10/1 p. 598 The Church Started with the Holy Scriptures ***
“When the crusaders at last stormed Jerusalem, July 15, 1099, they drove all the Jews into one of the synagogues and there burned them alive. . . . The religious zeal fomented by the Crusades burned as fiercely against the Jews as enemies of Christ as against the Moslems. Thus both economically and socially the Crusades were disastrous for European Jews.”
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Freed Mason says:
May 5, 2016 at 12:03 am
This is a form of child abuse, these videos will only cause emotional upset and conflict for the witness children who watch them, their teachers and classmates. I cannot imagine how a loving parent would allow their child to watch this mental indoctrination at such a vulnerable and impressionable age. I sincerely hope that the UK Charity Commission is aware of this content and it is removed immediately. You can expect a huge backlash to this content from normal, law abiding, tax paying humans that have a freedom of choice in terms of their sexual orientation.
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Will says:
May 5, 2016 at 7:15 am
I agree @Freed Mason. This is child abuse. You are opening the doors to your child getting bullied for his or intolerance or getting the sh** beat of of him or her– self-imposed persecution.
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ruthlee says:
May 5, 2016 at 12:22 am
I always thought it interesting they named their cartoon boy Caleb. That means dog does it not, and what is the hire of a dog euphemistic for in Biblical terms? Some one somewhere on the writing team was having a little in joke going on. The witness leadership are sick puppies.Oh the day we see Sophia get baptised and then two years later d’fd for crimes against watchtower. I’m sure there are some jdumb kids who think these cartoons are real. I have a new suggestion for the gb spies on this site… How about a t shirt campaign with your two little darlings sweet eyed asking us and our kids for MORE money. guilt is not working , extortion did for a bit but I reckon the charm offensive will do nicely. yours everso cynically Ruthlee
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mitch67 says:
May 5, 2016 at 3:06 am
in German the boy is called Philipp…;-)
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JBob says:
May 7, 2016 at 9:42 pm
@ruthlee – the “in joke”? Caleb – yes, does seem to derive from dog, but the Biblical story is that Caleb was a spy. The rest of the spies as Numbers 13 relates were timid of taking on the inhabitants to conquer while Caleb was sure of conquering the Promised Land.
But, let’s focus on spying. Once you have indoctrinated the children, who runs and runs their mouths at the most inconvenient time “spilling all the beans” to grandparents, neighbors, spouses, or elders?
Sophia is derived from Greek for “wisdom” and this could be linked to gnosis or knowledge via intelligence. So, what we’re revealing is something akin to the youth movements where children are used by authorities to report on insurgent (or insubordinate) parents.
It’s like this is some psy-op experiment in turning mass population into subservient and willing subjects (regardless of what the leadership says or does) negating need of and expense of an enforcement agency to police the population being dominated.
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Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:
May 5, 2016 at 2:37 am
The Watchtower are crook. They say “Telephone sex is one of the means that Satan the Devil is using to corrupt young ones today.” (g04 2/22 p. 21) but keep feeding our children with “SEX IN THE BIBLE”!
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Doc Obvious says:
May 5, 2016 at 5:41 am
How interesting that Watchtower puts out a video against Same-Sex Couples, but gave them the right to marry based on a United States Supreme Court case from the 1960’s.
A USA today article titled, “How Jehovah’s Witnesses helped kill Prop 8”, shows how a court case involving the rights of Same-Sex Couple to Marry were upheld by a precedent set by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society.
Here is the link to that very article, How Jehovah’s Witnesses helped kill Prop 8
It also has the whole case transcript as a link in the article.
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Tara says:
May 5, 2016 at 6:27 am
Has anyone heard any responses from JW’s or the GB etc? Netherlands, as I have read made a response but anything from anywhere else?.
What about the gay community? How are they viewing, no pun intended, this?
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JBob says:
May 7, 2016 at 9:48 pm
@Tara – total outrage, but the LGBT community–global community–has been battling this sort of bigotry for years now, so the Watchtower is a newcomer to the fighting ring while the LGBT community are veteran contenders.
The Watchtower & JW’s claim to be non-political and neutral, but these sorts of videos prove my point that it is impossible to be neutral when you have an active theology that opposes a group of people–be it Muslim, Jewish, LGBT–everyone else, except apparently pedophiles.
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JBob says:
May 7, 2016 at 9:54 pm
forgot to add–in the past, the JW organization didn’t suggest children make statements like this to their classmates. Children were encouraged to share their beliefs but not to JUDGE others for their beliefs. This line of teaching is straight out of fundamentalist/evangelical camps–probably from converts picked up from those, or an attempt to compete with conservative evangelicals becoming politically active and outspoken against the so-called “gay agenda”.
Speaking of wife-beating..
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Tara says:
May 9, 2016 at 6:53 am
I hope this gets wider publicity.
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Twmack says:
May 5, 2016 at 6:30 am
@ PeterB.
Gods people throughout the bible were never perfect like god is. Nowhere in the bible does it say that in the last days God would have a perfect Org. Nowhere!”.
Peter, It sounds like your study conductor is doing a good job on you.
Maybe the “Bible” doesn’t say God would have a perfect organisation,
but the “Watchtower” does and claims that position for its self.
Note the following.
1956 “Who controls the organization, who directs it? Who is at the head? A man? A group of men? A clergy class? A pope? A hierarchy? A council? No, none of these. How is that possible? In any organization is it not necessary that there be a directing head or policy-making part that controls or guides the organization? Yes. Is the living God, Jehovah, the Director of the theocratic Christian organization? Yes!” (Watchtower, November 1, 1956, p. 666).
Is God perfect or his he not? The Bible says he is, Deut,32:4, Ps, 18:30.
So claiming that an infallible source is controlling, guiding and policy
making can be interpreted no other way than saying this organisation
Is Perfect.
It’s only when they are forced into changing dates and flip flopping
on doctrine, they then adopt the fall back position. That we are only
fallible men. Peter I wish you well in your search for truth, but just
at present I think you’re looking entirely in the wrong place.
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PeterB says:
May 5, 2016 at 9:00 am
@Big B
Hmm, scriptures in Isiah and many others sure as hell sound like it’s hinting towards a restoration of a paradisiac situation. If not, then why the fuck is the earth here for? I totally prefer the idea that there would be some sort of “organization” for a people of God in our time to help understand a decent chunk of the Bible. To be organized.
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dee2 says:
May 5, 2016 at 10:49 am
Peter B:
“….scriptures in Isiah and many others sure as hell sound like it’s hinting towards a restoration of a paradisiac situation.”
– Which scriptures are these?
– How do these sctiptures “hint towards a restoration of a paradisiac situation”?
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rahab says:
May 6, 2016 at 2:28 am
it is good you hav indicated its your preference that there would be some sort of organization but certainly not the preference of God.you hav a right to prefer what you want but make sure you don’t go door to door peddling the lie that its a bible teaching
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PeterB says:
May 5, 2016 at 9:19 am
@Grace
I know all of the fact behind the shadow government- including all participating families, secret societies, government agencies, corporations and media. I know what their agenda has always been. I know all the terms and lingo within. If you knew, you all wouldn’t be so gleeful over Gay victories or Gun Control victories. If you only knew. If you put as much energy into investigating your government the way you do the WT, you would know that the WT is not and has never been connected…even if CT Russell was in some form to some degree of masonry. If you knew, then you would know the difference. If you only knew what you government is upto, you’d be protesting right now. If you only knew.
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dee2 says:
May 5, 2016 at 11:06 am
Peter B:
“If you only knew what you government is upto, you’d be protesting right now. If you only knew.”
So what is the government up to? Seems you are privy to some information which you need to share with us.
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Twmack says:
May 5, 2016 at 10:53 am
Is not religion the greatest conspiracy of all? The invention
of a God with awesome powers, someone we owe our life to
who loves us, but is capable of violent anger and terrible
retribution if offended.
Behind every religion is the “Hidden Elite” who use this
concept of of a schizophrenic monster, to keep the masses
subservient and compliant. His invisibility and no show is a
key factor in keeping the conspiracy or the illusion from
being Sussed out.
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PeterB says:
May 5, 2016 at 12:30 pm
@dee2
(KING JAMES)
Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
Isaiah 65:21-25 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent’s meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.
Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
http://biblehub.com/hcsb/psalms/37.htm
29The righteous will inherit the landar
and dwell in it permanently.
That doesn’t sound ANYTHING like a paradise earth right?
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dee2 says:
May 5, 2016 at 4:15 pm
PeterB,
“That doesn’t sound ANYTHING like a paradise earth right?”
– Paradise for whom? Who were these scriptures addressed to?
– Just my musings:
I’ve always wondered if wolves, leopards and lambs can actually dwell/lie down together?
Or if the calf and the young lion and the fatling can actually dwell/lie down together?
Can a little child safely lead wolves, leopards, and young lions?
Can wolves and lambs actually feed together, and lions eat straw like the bullock?
– Are you aware that persons will die in this Paradise?
Isaiah 65:22: “…….for as the days of a tree are the days of my people…….”
– Could you please explain how Isaiah 45:18 pertains to the Paradise?
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PeterB says:
May 5, 2016 at 12:49 pm
@dee2
As far as the Government. It’s so much for thrilling and sickeningly informative to do the research on your own. Go to the United Nations Website and look up Agenda 21. (then do research until the wee hours of the morning on that)
look up agenda 2030.
look up bohemian grove
look up Black Lives Matter (seriously)
look up the The Georgia Stones
Study the lay out, art and inscriptions of the White House and surrounding Gov buidlings
Research the origins of the Illuminati and the worship of the owl
look up Bill Clinton having sex with children
look up chemtrails and what they really are
look up plans for a NEW WORLD ORDER and what it means for you
watch Food Inc and see where all that connects
look up what fluoride in your water REALLY is
If you think that the twin towers fell at free fall speed in just under an hour of being hit by a plane…and that the impact of and fuel made them fall the way they did…LOL
Not to mention World Trade Center 7 (the 3rd building in NY to call that same day in the same fashion as the other 2…free fall speed like a controlled demo! In order to have those buildings fall perfectly it was going to take sophisticated top notch planning by top notch science. Not some fools in a cave in the East. Think.
Look up the real agenda behind gun control and the real planning behind all these mass shootings.
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ian york says:
May 5, 2016 at 1:40 pm
PeterB,
Perhaps you should be studying with Alex Jones, not JWs. Your conspiracy theories are most certainly NOT shared by them, and if your study conductor says they are then you are being humoured and drawn in, inch by inch. That’s how they do it. You’ll find they don’t contemplate anything beyond surface levels and always draw the most simplistic conclusions that fit their doomsday beliefs. You’re wasting your time. And actually I share some of your concerns: Agenda 21 etc.
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Daniel Roberts says:
May 6, 2016 at 1:36 am
Just because the government’s of this world are corrupt and deceitful, (Governments always have been) doesn’t mean that JW’S have the truth.
In fact, considering the deceit that the JW’S are guilty of, from revising their old literature to omit embarrassing false teachings and predictions, to even go so far as to revise THE BIBLE (no less) in order to better support their doctrines, to allow their members to stake and lose their lives on doctrinal demands based upon incorrect interpretation of scriptures – just to then recant on this ‘truth’ in favour of “new light’.
Truth doesn’t change.
Truth doesn’t need to be adjusted.
Truth doesn’t have to manipulated.
Truth either is, or isn’t.
If it isn’t…
Then it’s called Lies.
The JW organisation is built on lies.
It teaches lies.
You are being deceived by expert deceivers.
I think you already know this.
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dee2 says:
May 6, 2016 at 6:05 am
“Just because the government’s of this world are corrupt and deceitful, (Governments always have been) doesn’t mean that JW’S have the truth.”
Jim Jones People’s Temple cult leader:
“Will you tell me you believe in God out there? So what? What’s your sky God ever done? Two out of three nations in the world are hungry. Misery in every one of your homes. The only happiness you’ve found is when you’ve come to this earth God!
Your children were in difficulties. No one came to the jails. You prayed to your sky God and he never heard your prayers. You asked and begged and pleaded in your suffering … . He never provided a home, but I, your socialist God, have given you all these things. When your world has failed you, I’ll be standing because I am freedom. I am peace. I am Justice. I am God!”
(Source: Raven: The Untold Story of the Reverend Jim Jones and His People).
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Daniel Roberts says:
May 7, 2016 at 4:58 am
Jonestown. A symbol of just how deep and dark Christian fundamentalism can get.
The JW’S aren’t fair behind I fear.
Whilst not explicitly commanding it’s members to kill themselves in the name of their version of God – yet – They specifically instruct their members to die for JHVH in various ways.
I fear for my brother and his family, still completely entranced and mesmerised by the hypnotic power of this putrid cult.
Wish he’d get out before they give the Kool Aid command.
On another note that PeterB made regarding the ‘Worldwide preaching work’
Door to door.
Surely the least effective way to preach an urgent message?
Saving lives at the speed of………foot.
Slowly ambling around neighbourhoods, quietly confident that no one will be at home to hear the most lazily and incoherently delivered life saving message of all time.
At the very least the Mormons send out articulate people with a concise message into the field.
Not the witnesses. Children, mopey teenagers, the elderly, the uneducated.
Ambassadors for the kingdom, commissioned with the most important job in human history.
Saving humanity from imminent destruction… easily sent on their ambling way with a simple: ‘Not today thanks’.
I read a Wachtower article on JW.ORG this week which talks about the Rapture of the last remaining annointed ones during the great tribulation.
The article was so poorly written and so vague it was painful to read.
That 8 million people are wasting their lives and resources, hopes and future on this pack of lies is just so sad.
I hope my Bro finds the way out.
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dee2 says:
May 7, 2016 at 7:47 am
PeterB seems to believe that the WT has the answers to the problems in the world and he seems to be ignorant of the fact that cults exploit/use people’s dissatisfaction with the world, problems with the world, crises, catastrophes etc. to get persons to believe that their group has the answers which no other group has and they must be part of their group to be saved. Jim Jones did an excellent job at this and history tells us what the outcome was for Jim Jones and his followers.
Daniel Roberts says:
May 7, 2016 at 5:00 am
Jonestown. A symbol of just how deep and dark Christian fundamentalism can get.
The JW’S aren’t far behind I fear.
Whilst not explicitly commanding it’s members to kill themselves in the name of their version of God – yet – They specifically instruct their members to die for JHVH in various ways.
I fear for my brother and his family, still completely entranced and mesmerised by the hypnotic power of this putrid cult.
Wish he’d get out before they give the Kool Aid command.
On another note that PeterB made regarding the ‘Worldwide preaching work’
Door to door.
Surely the least effective way to preach an urgent message?
Saving lives at the speed of………foot.
Slowly ambling around neighbourhoods, quietly confident that no one will be at home to hear the most lazily and incoherently delivered life saving message of all time.
At the very least the Mormons send out articulate people with a concise message into the field.
Not the witnesses. Children, mopey teenagers, the elderly, the uneducated.
Ambassadors for the kingdom, commissioned with the most important job in human history.
Saving humanity from imminent destruction… easily sent on their ambling way with a simple: ‘Not today thanks’.
I read a Wachtower article on JW.ORG this week which talks about the Rapture of the last remaining annointed ones during the great tribulation.
The article was so poorly written and so vague it was painful to read.
That 8 million people are wasting their lives and resources, hopes and future on this pack of lies is just so sad.
I hope my Bro finds the way out.
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dee2 says:
May 7, 2016 at 7:50 am
PeterB seems to believe that the WT has the answers to the problems in the world and he seems to be ignorant of the fact that cults exploit/use people’s dissatisfaction with the world, problems with the world, crises, catastrophes etc. to get persons to believe that their group has the answers which no other group has and they must be part of their group to be saved. Jim Jones did an excellent job at this and history tells us what the outcome was for Jim Jones and his followers.
Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:
May 5, 2016 at 1:17 pm
Hypocrites are not easy to deal with. The Watchtower are today’s Pharisees.
*** w11 11/1 p. 7 Ten Questions About Sex Answered ***
Even though they do not condone homosexual relations, true Christians show kindness to all people. (Matthew 7:12) God wants us to “honor men of all sorts.” Therefore, genuine Christians are not homophobic.—1 Peter 2:17.
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Alice says:
May 5, 2016 at 5:05 pm
I know this is going to be an off topic comment. I want to share my experience, it may help someone. I was shunned by my JW brother and sister for twentyone years. After my husband died I started attending meetings so I could have family in my life. Now that they see I don’t go out in service and I am rarely going to meetings my JW family are shunning me again. The funny thing about this is that this time I really, honestly don’t care. I feel it’s their problem and not mine. This is the second time around for me being shunned by my JW family. THEY ARE THE ONLY FAMILY I HAVE yet in my brain I cut all ties with them. It took me a long time to do that. I realize I don’t want to be around people who treat me the way they do even though they are family. The society for me is a dictatorship. They dictate what you say, they dictate what you feel, they dictate your sex life, they dictate how your kids treat a lesbian couple and their child, they dictate how you look, they dictate what comes out of your mouth. The society treats everyone like muppets by pulling their strings. I feel calmer and less stress letting go.
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Julien says:
May 5, 2016 at 8:21 pm
Hi Alice. I think a lot of us have gone through the mental and emotional warfare of being shunned by our families. I tried for a while to stay in contact but once I had children and I caught them preaching to them I had to sever all ties. I think people drawn to this cult have an already existing precept and the jw doctrines just validated what they already beleived or they dont want to think for themselves. People who shun their family members are not people who loves us nor really comprehend what love really is. It is brainwashing and indoctrination. All we can do is not repeat their mistakes. Good luck to you.
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ruthlee says:
May 6, 2016 at 1:00 am
Hi Alice I am in a similar position in that all my relatives who were jws are dead. I have no one from my history. My kids are at that vulnerable age and I do not encourage them to do the stuff I did but they have a vast family ie my inlaws. Like you I am at that point where I don’t give a hoot anymore with them. I honestly don’t need their sarcastic comments and I dont mind if I never uttered another word to any of them. Icannot believe I think like this but somehow we get a strength without these people and don’t need their tightlipped judgement or their trivial gossip. In a way we grow up when we realise this religion is very shallow. If you are a bible reader and a Christian just think about the last time you actually had a conversation about spiritual matters and I’m not talking about speculative whacky ideas from Brooklyn. I think you will find this site with all it’s diversity has given you more to think about with regards your faith, belief and direction than you ever got fed by the famished jdubs So in that way we are not alone . In fact it starts a great journey of discovery. I downed tools last year no more watchtower for me and that has been liberating. It is surprising what the bible says and it is not what they teach. If you have to meet up with jdubs the best advice I heard from Ms Gaskin wear shunglasses. cheers Ruthlee
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Twmack says:
May 6, 2016 at 11:11 am
The wolf and lamb lying down together, the predator and
prey system abolished. “They will not hurt or destroy in all
my holy mountain”
To be meaningful, that promise has got to extend to all living
things. The mind just focuses on the larger animals, but
the predator prey relationship goes right down to the insect
world.
The screams of a fly trapped in a spiders web have been
amplified, it feels it experiences fear and terror, just as much
as a wildebeest being dragged under by a crocodile or a
zebra suffocated by a lion.
The more you meditate on this topic the more you realise how
foolish it is to interpret it literally. I look back and wonder where
my mind was when I thought this stuff was real. I think I must
have regressed to kindergarten.
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dee2 says:
May 6, 2016 at 12:04 pm
Imagine the scenario if all the carnivores/predators are converted to herbivores and there is no more food chain: death would only be as a result of aging, assuming that the animals are not going to live forever like humans, too – but then according to Revelation 21:4 it seems the animals may very well be living forever too since
“There will be no more death………for the old order of things has passed away.”
So now, with no more food chain, there would now be a potential risk of an out-of-control animal population…………welcome to Paradise.
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John says:
May 7, 2016 at 2:36 pm
The term “homophobia” seems distinctly Orwellian to me. Perhaps Mr Cedars could explain the rationale behind the use of this word.
A homophobic person is supposed to have an irrational fear and hatred towards homosexuals, based on the belief that sex between people of the same sex is wrong. This is a moral claim, which is not refuted by argument, but by an attack on the person’s character i.e. he/she has an irrational hatred towards such people.
This is simply fallacious reasoning, and a clear instance of the ad hominem fallacy.
It’s also something of a non sequitor. You are saying that if a person contends that a certain action is wrong, then they have an irrational fear and hatred of those who engage in that action. There is a fairly broad consensus that theft is wrong, but it does not follow that those holding this view are inciting hatred towards thieves.
If that was the case, then the only way to avoid such hatred would be to have no moral guidelines, which would be nihilism not love.
Those who are reacting so vehemently against this video are themselves making moral judgments. They are condemning those who say homosexual conduct is wrong, and are contributing to a climate of intolerance against those who hold such views. Could it not be said that they are also inciting a certain hatred towards such people? There is an bitter irony here regarding the issue of tolerance.
Is it fair to denigrate someone’s character on the basis of little or no evidence? I would contend that the homophobic label is little more than a smear tactic, designed to deny any rational debate. It is irrational contempt disguised as fake moral outrage.
You are also saying-in this instance-that a moral viewpoint (Biblically justified) is irrational.
I also take issue with Mr Cedars contention regarding the inevitability of sexual preferences: “Anybody remotely in tune with reality understands that homosexuality is not a “choice,” as so often portrayed by Christian fundamentalists. Straight people are born straight, and gay people are born gay.”
I would direct readers to an article on this subject, suggesting that such a contention is deeply flawed: https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/for-the-first-time-a-majority-of-americans-believe-homosexuals-are-born-tha
I look forward to any comments and will try to answer any reasonable objections.
Thank you for reading this.
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PeterB says:
May 7, 2016 at 2:45 pm
@John Great comment
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KinseyScale6 says:
May 7, 2016 at 10:27 pm
@Cedars – I got this one…
First, the definition of homophobic by Merriam-Webster is: “irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals.” We can tell from context that the article is focused on issue of Watchtower setting minds for the “discrimination against homosexuals” by creating their “love” as immoral. This was once true for miscegenation, as well. It was considered immoral (and still is in some Christian colleges) to date and marry black/brown/yellow/tan/olive to white.
“Who Produces LifeSiteNews?
The service was originally started by Campaign Life Coalition (CLC), a Canadian national pro-life organization headquartered in Toronto, Canada.”
I would suggest that the “balanced” research you’re inviting me to read is substantially biased by a conservative, perhaps religious, organization’s biased viewpoint.
And, what a coincidence there is a political organization in Canada which is quite the conservative Christian group, “The Campaign Life Coalition (often called Campaign Life) is a Canadian conservative Christian group that opposes abortion.” If Lee Atwater taught me anything, it’s that political conservatives believe the end does justify the means, regardless of the facts; he eventually repudiated those methods. I encourage you to look beyond your political camp for true data, and by the way, if you’re sincere in becoming JW, you can pretty much hang up reading these political sites as well as Cedar’s blog.
Wiki actually tells us more about this group than their website does:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campaign_Life_Coalition
I encourage you to read:
Non-academic
“Is It a Choice?” by Eric Marcus, p. 9-11.http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-pavlovitz/yes-homosexuality-absolutely-is-a-choice_b_7106800.html
Scholarlyhttp://www.livescience.com/about
http://www.livescience.com/50058-being-gay-not-a-choice.html
http://www.livescience.com/37139-facts-about-gay-conversion-therapy.html
http://www.livescience.com/13409-myths-gay-people-debunked-sexual-orientation.html
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John says:
May 9, 2016 at 7:33 am
I fear that you may be laboring under a misapprehension.
Whist I fully understand the desire to prove a genetic disposition for homosexuality, it would ultimately have no bearing whatsoever on the Biblical injunction against homosexual behaviour.
Mr Cedars stated that “Straight people are born straight, and gay people are born gay”. This was simply an unsubstantiated assertion, which is not supported by current findings.
Whilst I may have referenced an article by a pro-life site, this aspect does not negate the validity of their information. Your dismissive reaction was a clear instance of the genetic fallacy i.e. rejecting by source not merit.
You have recommended articles by livescience.com, a site which
is clearly antagonistic towards the Christian faith. Does this mean that I should be dismissive of their output?
Since you are happy to resort to such tactics, here are some recent headlines from another of your sources, The Huffington Post:-
Jan 28: “Oops Amanda Seyfried Slips Off Her Undies”
——— ” Did Jennifer Lawrence’s Dress Rip at SAG Awards?”
Jan 31: “Chloe Kardasian- My Vagina Smells Like Roses”
Feb 1: “Jennifer Lawrence Describes her Breasts?”
Feb 3: “‘Girls’ Star’s Dress Debuts Boob Windows”
Feb 3: “Fmr Miss France Flashes her Headlights” (breasts)
I would also direct you to this site http://shameproject.com/profile/arianna-huffington/ detailing the dubious activities of the woman behind The Huffington Post, including her involvement with a New Age cult.
The reason why I cited the mentioned lifesite.com article was simply to highlight the Yale and Columbia study on identical twins; a study which led the researchers to conclude that genetics was not the primary factor in shaping sexual preferences.
Whilst there may be certain indications for differing influences, we do not yet have a full understanding of the roles of genetics and environment in the causation of homosexuality, and it is simply silly to suggest otherwise. There is certainly no definitive case either way.
Even if it were true that “gay people are born gay” this would in no way alter the sinful nature of homosexual activity. It’s not how you got the inclination, but what you do with it that counts.
Finally, your providing a dictionary definition of homophobic does nothing to counter my assessment of the word. It is simply an appeal to authority.
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wizzstick says:
May 7, 2016 at 11:25 pm
The subject of what creates homosexuality is still an area of research without a definitive answer.
There might not gay gene per se, but that doesn’t mean that people choose to be gay. An easy way of debunking that idea is that homosexuality is observable in animals, who can not make a conscious choice as humans can.
The website you linked to is a pro-Christian website. From it’s ‘About’ section:
3. LifeSiteNews.com’s writers and its founders, have come to understand that respect for life and family are endangered by an international conflict. That conflict is between radically opposed views of the worth and dignity of every human life and of family life and community. It has been caused by secularists attempting to eliminate Christian morality and natural law principles which are seen as the primary obstacles to implementing their new world order.
4. LifeSiteNews.com understands that abortion, euthanasia, cloning, homosexuality and all other moral, life and family issues are all interconnected in an international conflict affecting all nations, even at the most local levels. LifeSiteNews attempts to provide its readers with the big picture and the most useful and up-to-date information on this conflict.
So this site is hardly neutral in the subject. May I suggest you read the following links:
http://www.livescience.com/50058-being-gay-not-a-choice.html
http://www.livescience.com/13409-myths-gay-people-debunked-sexual-orientation.html
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Winston Smith says:
May 8, 2016 at 5:49 am
I have commented earlier that homosexuality may in many cases be a combination of nature and nurture (e.g. Ben Carson asks why some men enter prison straight and come out gay: I would argue that they already had a genetic predisposition toward being homosexual and now had the environment that allowed it to surface; case in point, a number of straight men enter prison straight and leave straight – they lack the genetic predisposition).
But this opinion does not endorse the concept that homosexuals can intentionally change their orientation or that their lifestyle is a choice. Asking someone gay to live as a straight person and condemning them if they cannot do so causes extreme psychological damage and often leads to mental heals issues and even suicide. How many of the commenters on this site have known or heard of a JW who was gay and was driven to commit suicide? I have.
WS
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Daniel Roberts says:
May 8, 2016 at 7:01 am
@John. Gay people do not condemn straight people to death by divine execution.
They do not demand that straight people change their sexual orientation.
Gay people do not insist that straight people are only that way because they choose to be.
Gay people do not care if you are straight, bent, curved, zigzagged, concave, convex.
They don’t believe that straight people are inferior or less entitled to live an uncomplicated and persecution free life.
Gay people just want what straight people have.
The right to be human without being judged as something less than.
Live and let live.
Why obsess over what consenting adults choose to do between themselves.
Being Gay is not wicked. It should not be treated as such.
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John says:
May 9, 2016 at 8:12 am
I will address each of your points separately:-
“Gay people do not condemn straight people to death by divine execution.”
The objection to homosexual behaviour is not based on personal opinion and divine judgment is enacted by God not man.
When Christians speak about homosexuality, they are simply stating God’s opinion as expressed in the Bible.
There is a duty on Christians to warn those practicing certain behaviours:
“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God-1 Corinthians 6:9-10 KJV.
As a single heterosexual male, I voluntarily submit to the injunction against sex outside marriage. Were I to have sexual relations outside of this arrangement, I would be ignoring God’s commands and would therefore be subject to divine judgment.
The principal is the same for those who are engaged in homosexual practices.
The only way to avoid divine judgment is through faith and repentance, and it is a Christian duty to make this known. You could say that this involves making a ‘judgment’ on someone’s conduct, but
the process originates with God’s word.
Christians certainly have no authority to condemn anyone to death.
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Victor says:
May 10, 2016 at 12:04 am
“As a single heterosexual male, I voluntarily submit to the injunction against sex outside marriage”… ah.. this is a half-truth, sooner or later you will be able to find someone, but for homosexuals what provides your loving God? ah yes, “wait for the magic new world”. pity that thousands of people died waiting…
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Daniel Roberts says:
May 10, 2016 at 4:31 am
@John – Ok. Firstly, you only addressed one of my points.
And you did so by immediately trying to avoid accountability by actually blaming God.
‘It’s not we who judge, it’s GOD. We simply have to do/feel as instructed’.
Well, this is actually not the case as the scripture you quoted was in fact written by a man.
Paul.
Paul wasn’t even quoting Jesus.
He was dictating new doctrine.
And before you jump to the ‘All scripture is inspired by God’ line of reasoning, let’s not forget that this assertion of divine inspiration was actually also written by……… Paul.
Paul in all likelihood had a personal dislike for ‘Effeminate’ men and therefore created his own ‘inspired’ rulebook.
I have to wonder though. What actually is the benchmark for ‘Too effeminate’?
How is it measured?
Are we talking about being a bit camp?
Over-accenting the “S’s” in our ssentencess?
Limp handshake? High pitched laugh?
Standing with hand on hip?
Too much blinking when talking?
One or all of these? Or combinations of?
It’s only fair to know what God considers to be too girly.
Or, is Paul on a little personal crusade?
I think it’s also vital that you address the following sins in Paul’s list:
“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God-1 Corinthians 6:9-10 KJV
The JW org regularly extorts money from it’s members. Even children being emotionally blackmailed to give their pocket money to the WT.
They are thieves. Having stolen time, lives, education, careers, and family from it’s members using incorrect teachings and timescales.
They are covetous. Greedy for wealth, property, status. The plush new headquarters and ‘Telly Award’ deception is testament to how low the WT will stoop to make itself look prestigious.
They are revilers. Speaking abusively about their ‘mentally diseased’ former members. Publically holding in contempt other religions, Catholicism particularly.
Drunkards? Again. Did Paul give us an indication of limit to alcohol consumption.
When is drunk… too drunk?
I’ve been tipsy on alcohol with many a Witness and had a jolly good time.
Are all Witnesses therefore as unentitled to God’s Kingdom as a Homosexual?
The JW’s interpret the bible to their own ends – Read the new world translation’s rendering of the above scripture for confirmation of that –
Picking and choosing which sins they decide most deserve the focal point, all the while utterly ignoring their own sinfulness according to the same texts.
Also – If ALL scripture is inspired by God… Then why have WT decided to remove John Chapter 8 verses 1 – 11 from their bible?
Also, the scripture above doesn’t say anything about ‘slightly butch’ women.
How deep are women’s voices allowed to get?
Can they wear dungerees?
I guess Paul, like a lot of Homophobic men, doesn’t have a problem with a little lesbianism.
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dee2 says:
May 10, 2016 at 7:59 am
@John,
“It’s not how you got the inclination, but what you do with it that counts.”
“The only way to avoid divine judgment is through faith and repentance………”
What about persons who have tried conversion therapy and faith and repentance but who have indicated that these things did not get rid of their homosexual inclination?
I wonder if God will still pour out his divine judgment on these persons despite their trying to overcome their inclination but nothing worked?
Admittedly, the jury is still out on whether there is a genetic disposition for homosexuality – as I understand it, no “gay gene” has been identified to date.
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John says:
May 12, 2016 at 4:49 am
[Evangelical comment removed per our religious neutrality policy – please refer to our posting guidelines before commenting again.]
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Twmack says:
May 8, 2016 at 6:29 am
John, You say,
Is it fair to denigrate someone’s character on the basis of little or no evidence? I would contend that the homophobic label is little more than a smear tactic, designed to deny any rational debate. It is irrational contempt disguised as fake moral outrage./
The many comments on the subject including your own input, clearly
demonstrate that there is no stifling of debate on this site.
Views will always be polarised on this, and many other subjects.
Authorities and studies can always be found and cited to support
a particular claim. One has got to resolve in his own mind which
information carries the most weight.
Thank goodness for freedom of thought and speech? Yours
as well as mine.
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Vinitha says:
May 8, 2016 at 11:34 pm
Watchtower indoctrination. When will this end? All individuals and children must have the freedom to exercise their human rights and express themselves. Watchtower STOP polluting young minds with your ideologies.
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dee2 says:
May 9, 2016 at 6:53 pm
@John,
“It’s not how you got the inclination, but what you do with it that counts.”
“The only way to avoid divine judgment is through faith and repentance………”
What about persons who have tried conversion therapy and faith and repentance but who have indicated that these things did not get rid of their homosexual inclination?
I wonder if God will still pour out his divine judgment on these persons despite their trying but nothing worked?
Admittedly, the jury is still out on whether there is a genetic disposition for homosexuality as based on my understanding no “gay” gene has been identified to date.
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Abby says:
May 10, 2016 at 3:25 am
After pioneering for over a decade, I wondered where the GB got the 70 hours requirement.
Did Jesus or any of the apostles ever count time? This modern day slavery is heart breaking. We have been taught in the watchtower that when we revenge, we are being presumptuous.(I.e doing Jehovah’s work) is DF not an act of presumptuousness? After watching Geoffery, I told mysef:This is indeed a renaissance period for all JW’s. Reading critically through the comments I did a lot of research,wow. 1914, Jephthah etc. My book of bible stories, Specifically Story 53 says that Jephthah’s daughter was not offered as aburnt offering. SMH.
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James Broughton says:
May 10, 2016 at 6:44 am
Lloyd, thank you so much for that article. I am pleased you reminded us of the Ugandan situation. In a recent ‘Watchtower’ there was an article on ‘Honesty’, which I believe should include intellectual honesty, something the Witnesses sometimes find difficult. Whether one agrees with homosexual practice or not, there ought to be no place in the Church for homophobic behaviour.
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Tara says:
May 10, 2016 at 7:02 am
Just my tuppence worth. I’ve said before, I’m just you’re basic Penny not an Amy (reference to Big Bang Theory, just in case you wondered). If God created us in his image etc… Why did he add a ‘faulty’ gene? Oh I know the Adam and Eve story etc etc but we are not talking about an illness here, we are talking about something in the make up of mankind that makes us who we are.
When I asked an ‘anointed one’ how he knew he was such, he showed me the scripture about Gods sons knowing who they are – can’t remember how it went… he also asked me how I knew I was female – said that’s how he knew he was anointed. So using the same logic can’t gay people say they know who they are?
Now not so long ago didn’t the GB through the WT say most of those claiming to be of the anointed were sick? So now they are also saying those who don’t match up to …. oh wait, themselves, are also ‘sick’.
lots of double standards going on.
I would sooner be with a group of gays who have love among themselves than with a group of people who imagine themselves as perfect individuals, set to be whisked away to the heavens, who look down on individuals who have a ‘faulty gene’ that god gave them in the first place!
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Tara says:
May 10, 2016 at 7:04 am
BTW local info suggests many at the hall are refusing to let their kids watch the video.
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Doc Obvious says:
May 10, 2016 at 11:25 am
I always love when grown ups urge kids to do their dirty work and then hide behind their legal department when doing so. I really wish the Watchtower themselves would go to the United States Supreme Court and tell them that their Jehovah and he does not want same sex marriage. These men in the United States are spiritual wimps. Be a man, Anthony Morris III, and do your own dirty work. Also, please stop taking food out of our kids mouths. It looks bad.
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Twmack says:
May 10, 2016 at 12:32 pm
I think a distinction has to be made between heterosexuals
who for some reason engage in homosexual acts, and those
in whom the preference is hard wired, and who remain that way
throughout their life.
The word sodomy derived from the Bible, brings up thoughts of
debauched orgies where lust takes over and anything and everything
takes place. ( That account I feel must influence many peoples
opinions of homosexuals. )
There’s also the men in prison who get drawn into those practices .
Then, there’s the genuine gay person.
Whose natural urges are toward the same sex only.
I know two elderly men, homosexual men, who have lived together
nearly all their adult life. They go to dances and dance with ladies,
but they always leave together. They are not and never have been
a threat to anyone.
But there is one young man in my daughters cong, I really feel
sorry for, He’s just getting involved in it all, he’s admitted his
preference, that he is gay. and in his own words, he is fighting it.
What are the prospects of his happiness, especially if he’s pushed
into a relationship with a young sister, Resulting in two blighted
lives.
When it comes to debating this issue, the bottom line is “Always”
It’s the inspired word of God. And if God hates homosexuality
then Christians should also hate it.
Well that’s another debate in itself. Much has been said on this
site alone about the authenticity and veracity of the Bible.
I’ll leave it there!
Reply
dee2 says:
May 10, 2016 at 1:18 pm
It has also been my observation that there are those in whom the homosexual preference is hard wired and there are those heterosexuals
who, for some reason engage in homosexual acts.
Reply
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← News Bulletin: Secret Watchtower documents once again demanded in new US court case.
The Friday Column: Leave no man behind →
Why Watchtower should be ashamed of its new homophobic child propaganda cartoon
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Posted on May 3, 2016
In the new cartoon, Sophia's mum teaches her how to be judgmental and bigoted
In the new cartoon, Sophia’s mum teaches her how to be judgmental and bigoted
It was in the summer 2012 that Jehovah’s Witnesses around the world were first introduced to Caleb and Sophia, the Governing Body’s new animated poster kids.
Their first cartoon adventures, which were distributed in DVDs at conventions and on the organization’s JW.org website, caused outrage even among many non-JWs. Watchtower’s blatant attempts to indoctrinate children using fear and paranoia created a wave of dismay that will have gone largely unnoticed by most ordinary JWs.
Since they first burst on to our screens, Caleb and Sophia have been taught by their troubled parents that Jehovah is pedantic enough to hate certain kinds of plastic action figures, that he wants kids to give their ice cream money to Watchtower, and that failing to pay sufficient attention at kingdom hall meetings can carry the death penalty.
But Watchtower apparently isn’t done with stripping JW kids of all innocence and individuality. Now the Governing Body wants them to challenge any classmates with gay or lesbian parents, and remind them that if mommy and mommy (or daddy and daddy) don’t change their ways they will lose their tickets to paradise.
It’s hard to know where to start in verbalizing one’s revulsion at the proud ignorance and homophobia on open display in this CGI monstrosity, but I will do my best.
Firstly, Sophia’s bewilderingly-orange mother manipulates her daughter with a metaphor that entirely misrepresents both homosexuality and Watchtower’s views regarding it. Sophia is asked to picture a man traveling with a bag, the contents of which trigger the airport security systems because he is carrying a prohibited item.
Homosexuality is explained as being the forbidden item the man must surrender before being allowed to travel on to his desired destination: paradise earth.
The video presents a misleading metaphor that misrepresents both homosexuality and Watchtower's teachings about what awaits homosexuals
The video presents a misleading metaphor that misrepresents both homosexuality and Watchtower’s teachings about what awaits homosexuals
Anybody remotely in tune with reality understands that homosexuality is not a “choice,” as so often portrayed by Christian fundamentalists. Straight people are born straight, and gay people are born gay. Just as it would be outrageous to ask a straight person to start being gay, it is impossible to expect a gay person to live a lie and stop being who they are. And yet this is what fanatics like Watchtower demand of them.
Secondly, the metaphor implies that if the traveler chooses against surrendering the forbidden item, the worst that will happen is that his ticket will be cancelled and he will be forced to browse the duty free before hailing a cab and making his way back to the hotel. But that is not how it works according to Jehovah’s Witness teachings.
If the metaphor were accurately and fully followed through, we would see the traveller being bundled away by security and thrown into a 1940s cattle cart, along with all others deemed undesirable by the Governing Body, before being dispatched to the great extermination camp of Armageddon.
This is not a case of “follow us, or don’t fly,” this is a case of “follow us, or die.”
But this doomsday aspect of Jehovah’s Witness theology is so repugnant to most ordinary people that Watchtower must do its best to obfuscate it wherever possible.
Even most JWs you may encounter on the street, if pressed on the matter, will deny that literally billions of people, including children, are in line for mass slaughter if their hopes and expectations come to fruition. Their continued state of subservience to their religion depends on them not thinking things through to their fullest, most grisly conclusion.
All that deception and mischaracterization aside, arguably the most repugnant and disturbing aspect of this vile cartoon is that it sets out to recruit JW children to impose the organization’s homophobic bigotry on any classmates who happen to have gay or lesbian parents.
When I was growing up as a JW I recall being indoctrinated into believing that homosexuality was to be condemned. But I don’t remember once being told to actively seek out homosexuals, or children of homosexuals, to badger them with my beliefs. All that, apparently, has now changed. Watchtower has thrown its hat in with all the other sickly Christian evangelicals whose crusade is to stamp out homosexuality wherever it surfaces.
If you want to see what the end game is of preaching hate in this way, you need only watch the documentary “God Loves Uganda,” which is currently running on Netflix. It shows how U.S. evangelicals have taken a loathsome message that has zero credibility in their homeland, and cynically flooded Uganda with it – a country whose populace have limited access to education and are therefore easy pickings for those who spew ignorance and bigotry.
And before I am accused of trying to persuade people towards atheism by making this film recommendation, I should point out that two heroes of the film are Reverend Kaoma and Bishop Senyonjo. By the end of the film, I wanted to reach into my screen and hug them both.
Despite being Christians they could plainly see the real danger posed by evangelical homophobic fanaticism, and were doing their best in the face of unspeakable brutality to urge love, respect and tolerance.
Now it seems Watchtower, having already embraced televangelism, are also now quite happy to count themselves among the small-minded homophobic hate-mongers who stain our society. And rather than lead the hateful charge themselves, the likes of Tony Morris and his Governing Body cronies are content to hide behind a newly-formed army of school-age foot-soldiers who will take the heat for them.
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Further reading…
◾Metro article
◾Independent article
◾Inquisitr article
◾The Friendly Atheist article
◾Rawstory article
◾Complex article
◾Wetpaint article
◾Pink News article
◾Wonkette article
◾Gaystarnews article
◾SDGLN.com article
◾Same Same article
◾Newnownext article
◾The Daily Dot article
◾The Stranger article
◾The Gaily Grind article
◾Dangerous Minds article
◾TheNewCivilRightsMovement.com article
◾Progressive Secular Humanist article
◾JoeMyGod.com article
◾Watchtower’s New “Toy Story” – What Parents Need to Know
◾Sparlock a year later: Non-JWs in uproar on YouTube
◾Cough up kids! Watchtower needs your ice cream money
◾“Pay attention or die” – A disturbing glimpse of JW child indoctrination at work
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← News Bulletin: Secret Watchtower documents once again demanded in new US court case.
The Friday Column: Leave no man behind →
325 Responses to Why Watchtower should be ashamed of its new homophobic child propaganda cartoon
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PeterB says:
May 10, 2016 at 12:32 pm
The bible clearly states that God (if there is one) does not approve of men engaging in sexual activity with other men, and same for women with women. It’s unfortunate that such in individuals ( individuals that agree with what the bible says on the matter of homosexuality ) must be torn with a troubled conscience while trying to serve God. But, thats the way the ball bounced. Just because you are born that way IN THIS WORLD, does not make it okay as a sexual act or as a life style. Its as if this is an alternate reality like in Back to the Future. This reality we know of…this reality we feel and breath everyday was never supposed to happen. Also God did not make Satan, or nudge Satan to ultimately feel the way he did thus causing him to make all the stupid decisions that he did. That was Satan’s own damn fault. There did’t have to be an “evil” for there to be a “good”… It all just went down the way it went down. Now we are all here, and if you are gay… too bad.
Reply
dee2 says:
May 10, 2016 at 1:24 pm
PeterB:
– “Its as if this is an alternate reality like in Back to the Future.”
How do you know that this is an alternate reality? What reason is there to believe that that this is an alternate reality?
– “This reality we know of…this reality we feel and breath everyday was never supposed to happen.”
How do you know that this reality was never supposed to happen? What reason is there to believe that this reality was never supposed to happen?
– “Also God did not make Satan, or nudge Satan to ultimately feel the way he did thus causing him to make all the stupid decisions that he did.”
What stupid decisions did Satan make?
– “There did’t have to be an “evil” for there to be a “good” “.
How do you know that?
– “Now we are all here, and if you are gay… too bad.”
Why is it “too bad” if you are gay?
Reply
Winston Smith says:
May 11, 2016 at 3:29 am
And in this “alternate reality” some people get cancer – “too bad, that’s the way the ball bounces”
And some children get molested by JW pedofiles – “too bad that’s the way the ball the ball bounces”
It seems like a pretty self centered outlook. It seems to indicate “it doesn’t affect me, so too bad for them. Let God fix it” Unrealistic outlook in my opinion.
WS
Reply
PeterB says:
May 11, 2016 at 7:08 am
@dee2
(My comeback comment has been waiting moderation since yesterday. So here it is without curse words.)
How do you know that this is an alternate reality? What reason is there to believe that that this is an alternate reality? 1.) If you know the answers then why do you ask? You know exactly how a person studying with JWs will answer. I know from scriptures. I have chosen to view my study of the scriptures as fact. I studied with 7 denominations before I agreed to study with JWs. I have plenty of comments on this site already with scriptures that support my view. If you want to interpret scriptures another way then that’s your thing. 2) Repeat
What stupid decisions did Satan make?
In short, he chose to “fight the power” like a big whiny brat because he couldn’t see himself worshiping God and slaving for him with a fake smile on his face for the rest of his never ending life in heaven. So he decided to switch things up a bit. Maybe he got his fragile feelings/ego all butt-hurt over some family jealousy in heaven.
Why is it “too bad” if you are gay?
If you are gay, maybe God will have mercy on you whenever he brings this sh!t hole world to an end. Maybe he’ll even show mercy to almost all of you that have been devastated by policies that the JW Organization has in place. But it’s too bad in the way that the bible says what it says about homosexuals and that’s that. So there. The Bible is the authority.
The Bible is freakin’ awesome. I’ve been obsessed with it since I was a late teen. I’ve also been obsessed with uncovering truths about the world that we live in. And I never needed JWs to let me know something like The United Nations will make an attempt to bring an end to the freedom of religion. I knew that 20 years ago! The USA has plans to give all power to the UN for a big a** take over that will leave you in shock and awe. I already knew from my studies that the prophecies in Daniel were amazingly accurate. JWs just agreed with my view. The Bible is REAL. I don’t even read the NWT of the Bible. But the Bible I read says that God disapproves of a gay lifestyle. So, again for those of you that support the lifestyle…you’re just taking one hell of a chance with God. I know a few non-JWs growing up that made a decision not to act on their desires because they felt it was wrong. Now that is a sacrifice!!! Everyone is just obsessed with making sure that they themselves are HAPPY in this selfish world! So simple.
Reply
Winston Smith says:
May 11, 2016 at 11:26 am
@PeterB
The fact that you need to have a “comeback” comment reveals much about your motives. The majority of folks on this site are not looking to win arguments, but rather they are looking to gain perspective on their involvement what, after thorough and honest examination, has proven to be a damaging high control group or cult.
Your comments reveal a lack of love for your fellow humans who may happen to have been born gay or lesbian (see John 3:16 and 13:35). You have called some of us dumb (1 Pet 2:23) and you seem to be unable to control the language you use (Eph 4:29).
So what is it you are learning from the JWs about the Bible? It is certainly none of the above references. If you want to learn to be condescending, judgemental, and egomaniacal, then the JW religion (along with many other fundamentalist Christian groups) may be the place for you. But you are failing to learn the love of the Christ that the Bible teaches.
Good luck with your “studies.”
WS
Reply
Danny says:
May 13, 2016 at 8:22 am
Show me one single bible scripture, where sexual relationship woman with woman are condemned by god. When the bible is gods word, you have to prove your statement.
Reply
Winston Smith says:
May 13, 2016 at 12:54 pm
Danny,
The only one that comes to mind is:
Romans 1:26 This is why God delivered them over to degrading passions. For even their females exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones.
Or as according to the Living Bible:
Romans 1:26 That is why God let go of them and let them do all these evil things, so that even their women turned against God’s natural plan for them and indulged in sex sin with each other.
I am not advocating intolerance of homosexuals by pointing this out, but simply attempting to answer your question.
WS
Reply
PeterB says:
May 10, 2016 at 2:36 pm
How do you know that this is an alternate reality? What reason is there to believe that that this is an alternate reality? 1) If you know the answers then why do you ask? You know exactly how I will answer. I know from scriptures. I have chosen to view my study of the scriptures as fact. I studied with 7 denominations before I agreed to study with JWs. I have plenty of comments on this site already with scriptures that support my view. If you want to interpret scriptures another way then that’s your thing. 2) Repeat
What stupid decisions did Satan make?
In short, he chose to “fight the power” like a big whiny brat because he couldn’t see himself worshiping God and slaving for him with a fake smile on his face for the rest of his never ending life in heaven. So he decided to switch things up a bit. Maybe he got his fragile feelings/ego all butt-hurt over some family jealousy in heaven.
Why is it “too bad” if you are gay?
If you are gay, maybe God will have mercy on you whenever he brings this shit hole world to an end. Maybe he’ll even show mercy to almost all of you that have been devastated by policies that the JW Organization has in place. But it’s too bad in the way that the bible says what it says about homosexuals and that’s that. So there. The Bible is the authority.
The Bible is freakin’ awesome. I’ve been obsessed with it since I was a late teen. I’ve also been obsessed with uncovering truths about the world that we live in. And I never needed JWs to let me know something like The United Nations will make an attempt to bring an end to the freedom of religion. I knew that 20 years ago! The USA has plans to give all power to the UN for a big ass take over that will leave you in shock and awe. I already knew from my studies that the prophecies in Daniel were amazingly accurate. JWs just agreed with my view. The Bible is REAL. I don’t even read the NWT of the Bible. But the Bible I read says that God disapproves of a gay lifestyle. So, again for those of you that support the lifestyle…you’re just taking one hell of a chance with God. I know a few non-JWs growing up that made a decision not to act on their desires because they felt it was wrong. Now that is a sacrifice!!! Everyone is just obsessed with making sure that they themselves are HAPPY in this selfish world! So simple.
Reply
Daniel Roberts says:
May 11, 2016 at 3:36 am
Just another thought. But if sexuality is such a massive issue for God – Man being male, woman being female; Why will the annointed females of the 144000 have their gender reassigned to male, upon entering heaven to rule as kings and priests?
We know that God, Jesus, Angels etc are all male don’t we…. And we know how they all feel about women. (Even down to finding them sexually attractive according to the Genesis account)
So… God is going to turn all the girls into guys?
Talk about nuts.
(Albeit Angelic ones)
Reply
PeterB says:
May 11, 2016 at 7:02 am
You can’t say the angels are male. That was so dumb of you to say. The Bible refers to God & angels as “he” just so us stupid humans can get the point of certain things.
Reply
Daniel Roberts says:
May 11, 2016 at 8:07 am
Yeaaaah. .. how dumb of me.
Pretty sure God made man in HIS image. Pretty sure the angels came down and had sex with the women in the pre-flood story.
Pretty certain God is a Patriarchal deity. I.e. Our heavenly Father.
You can’t dispute this PeterB.
Reply
Daniel Roberts says:
May 11, 2016 at 8:29 am
Further to above comment PeterB.
You are presenting yourself as a little manic.
This might be due to frustration in having your beliefs challenged.
Whatever the case, I don’t wish to upset you further so I shall decline further comment on this thread.
Go carefully with the JW’S. I sincerely hope they help you find happiness.
P n L.
Reply
Caroline says:
May 11, 2016 at 8:54 am
@Peter, I also thought that the Bible was awesome but it isn’t. Go to Wikipedia and look up the Jahwist or Yahwist source, the Deuteronomist source, the Priestly source, the Masoretic text, the Latin Vulgate Bible and the Septuagint and then come back here and say how awesome the Bible is.
I didn’t know anything about the Bible while I was in the “truth” and neither do any of the other Jehovah’s Witnesses know even the least little thing when it comes to how the Bible came to be or the background of the scriptures. If you did even the littlest bit of research on the background of the Bible and how we got it, you would think differently, believe me.
Do that first and then come back okay? Also, while you are at it, look up the gods that were being worshiped in ancient Canaan (where Abraham and his family were before going into Egypt) and see the similarities between the Canaanite Gods and the God of the Bible.
Another thing to do is pay attention to what the Israelites were doing in the worship of Jehovah, ie. burning their kids to Jehovah/Baal. Baal is just another word for God (master, owner Insight #1) page 228.
In Acts 7:43, Stephen said the Hebrews were worshiping Molech during the 40 year wilderness trek and Molech worship was the burning of their firstborn to him. That is the God the Israelites worshiped when they got the law from Jehovah/Baal.
It’s all in there in the Bible if you pay attention to what it actually says.
Reply
Twmack says:
May 11, 2016 at 9:23 am
@PeterB. “The Bible is “Freakin'” awesome ”
Nice comment Peter, Freakin is merely a substitute for that
other Anglo Saxon word you seem so fond of.
Then your reply to Dee2 has had to be cleaned up before
it was acceptable for publication. You pride yourself on
using scriptures to support your point.
So I suggest your comments could be improved by checking
out what the Bible says about acceptable language. I won’t
Insult a man of your advanced knowledge by citing texts for
you to look up. ( studied with 7 religions already very impressive)
Only another estimated 31,993 Christian religions to go Peter
Good luck in your search,
I’m with Daniel Roberts now, no more replies from me.
Reply
PeterB says:
May 11, 2016 at 2:15 pm
@Caroline
I read everything Wikipedia had to offer on everything you gave me to look up. I’m not impressed. If you read it all again you might not be impressed either.
Reply
Big B says:
May 11, 2016 at 6:25 pm
Personally, I believe nothing anyone writes or shows PeterB will be much use to a hardcore “Jehovah’s Witness apologist”.
Like a teenager it might be better to let him find out for himself and after he is kicked to the curb by his new found “friends” maybe he will be more inclined to listen.
However, as of now he is not only non-receptive to given proofs but downright arrogant and I will not feed his egomania anymore. Ta Ta TROLL!
Reply
Caroline says:
May 12, 2016 at 2:07 am
@Big B, I can see you are right about PeterB. He doesn’t know anything about the Bible or the background of the Watchtower Society and as long as he is one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, he never will.
People believe what they want to believe and when it comes to facts, they refuse to look at them for fear of finding out they were wrong.
Reply
dee2 says:
May 12, 2016 at 7:28 am
@PeterB:
“I never needed JWs to let me know something like The United Nations will make an attempt to bring an end to the freedom of religion. I knew that 20 years ago!”
– Where in the Bible is this stated?
– What were the views/teachings regarding this of the 7 denominations with whom you studied?
“The USA has plans to give all power to the UN for a big a** take over that will leave you in shock and awe.”
– Where in the Bible is this stated?
– What were the views/teachings regarding this of the 7 denominations with whom you studied?
Reply
dee2 says:
May 12, 2016 at 7:30 am
@PeterB:
“I already knew from my studies that the prophecies in Daniel were amazingly accurate. JWs just agreed with my view.”
Is the book of Daniel amazingly accurate?
– The author of Daniel accurately refers to two campaigns which Antiochus Epiphanes (Antiochus IV), the Seleucid king of Syria, led against Egypt, but then speaks of a third, after which Antiochus was predicted to die on the coast of Palestine (Daniel 11:40-45). This did not happen. Whereas the writer had been accurate up to 165 BCE, from that point on he revealed ignorance of the movements of Antiochus Epiphanes, so betraying the fact that he was writing prophecy and not history.
The prediction concerning Antiochus’s final battle and place of death “between the sea and the holy mountain” (Daniel 11:45) was inaccurate, and so we know that this prophecy was completed before the news of his death reached Jerusalem. Antiochus died in Persia, in late 164 BCE.
Prior to Daniel 11:40, the author(s) has been recording past events under the Babylonian, Median, Persian and Greek empires. In Daniel 11:40-45, he really attempts to predict the future. He prophesizes that a king of the south (of the Ptolemaic dynasty) will attack the Greeks in Judea, under Antiochus. The Greeks will win, will lay spoil to all of northeast Africa, and return to Judea where Antiochus will die. The end of history will then occur. The author(s) appeared to be a poor psychic because none of these events actually happened. Antiochus did die in 164 BCE, but it was in Persia. Thus, the book was apparently completed before 164 BCE.
– Daniel 1:1-2 says that Nebuchadnezzar attacked Jerusalem and took away exiles and spoils in Jehoiakim’s third year. However, there is no record elsewhere of such an event, in the Bible or the Babylonian Chronicle both of which indicate that Jerusalem fell to Nebuchadnezzar for the first time in 597 BCE.
– According to Daniel 2:28, God give a revelation concerning “what will happen at the end of days” to gentile (thus pagan) rulers. If the effect of the various events was so great on the kings, why is there no evidence outside the Bible of this effect?
– There is no historical merit to the stories of Babylonian and Persian kings acknowledging or adopting the God of the Jews who lived in exile among them.
– In the case of “Darius the Mede,” whose laws could not be altered, why wasn’t his decree, according to Daniel 6:26,carried out by succeeding kings?
– There is no place in history for “Darius the Mede”:
The city of Babylon was taken over by the Persians in 539, and this leads to another problem in the book of Daniel, which says the city fell to “Darius the Mede.” Chapters 6 and 9 are dated in his reign, but no such figure has been found in any of the texts from the ancient Near East, and indeed there is no place in history for the reign of such a person. Nabonidus was succeeded immediately by Cyrus the Persian, who is the last king to be named in Daniel (1:21 and 10:1).
– Other claims by the book of Daniel which are at odds with historical fact:
* It depicts the Babylonians, Medes, Persians, and Greeks as four consecutive empires (chapter 2); however, some of those states existed concurrently. In reality, the Median and Babylonian kingdoms coexisted until the Medians were conquered about 550 BCE and the Babylonians were conquered in 539, both by the Persians.
* It talks about Nebuchadnezzar being exiled from his kingdom (chapter 4); this probably reflects events involving the last king of Babylon, Nabonidus, who took a “leave of absence” from being king and lived in an oasis on the Arabian peninsula.
* It depicts Belshazzar as the last king of Babylon (chapter 5); this is an error.Belshazzar was not the son of Nebuchadnezzar and was never called king in the Babylonian records, but served only as a sort of prince regent for a time. He was defeated by Cyrus, not by Darius.
* Daniel 5:31 records how “Darius the Mede” conquered Babylon and killed king Belshazzar. This belief probably arose out of many predictions in Isaiah and Jeremiah that Babylon would fall to the Medes. In reality, the Median and Babylonian kingdoms coexisted until the Medians were conquered about 550 BCE and the Babylonians were conquered in 539, both by the Persians. Darius was not a Median king. Apparently the later Persian king “Darius the Great” was confused by the author(s) with Astyages, the last Median king.
* Daniel 1:4 refers to the “Chaldeans” as a priestly class in Babylon. This term did not attain this meaning until much later than the 6th century.
Daniel’s purported setting during the Babylonian exile, according to chapter 4, is not plausible. Someone living in the Babylonian exile would not have made these kinds of mistakes. The book must be from a later era. In fact, it employs Greek loan words – e.g., sumfoniah or “bagpipes,” related to the English word “symphony,” appears in Daniel 3:5, which establishes that someone wrote Daniel during the Greek period – the Greek occupation of the area did not occur until the 4th century BCE.
One of the musical instruments mentioned in Daniel 3:5 and in subsequent passages did not exist until it was developed in 2nd century BCE Greece.
Daniel 11:31 (and elsewhere) refers to “the abominable thing that causes desolation.” This appears to refer to the erection of a statue of Zeus in the Jerusalem temple in 167 BCE, and would indicate that the book was written later than that date.
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dee2 says:
May 12, 2016 at 7:35 am
@PeterB cont’d:
– The book of Daniel tells of Daniel’s adventures under two Babylonian kings Nebuchadnezzar and Belshazzar, a Median king Darius who happens to be unknown to history, a Persian king Cyrus – that’s a whole lot of years! You have the chronology of more than a century being telescoped here.
– Nothing is known historically of a Daniel in Babylon:
The first six chapters are stories about Daniel, speaking of him in the third person, and so are anonymous as to authorship. Daniel speaks in the first person in chapters 7-12, and since he dates his visions in the reigns of Belshazzar and Cyrus, the traditional view has been that this sixth-century character was responsible for the whole book. However, nothing is known historically of a Daniel in Babylon. There may well have been a Daniel in exile around whom these legends grew up, although we know nothing more about him.
About 180 BCE, Jeshua ben Sira listed the heroes of the Jewish faith, including “Enoch, Noah and Abraham through to Nehemiah;” Daniel is not mentioned – presumably because Jeshua is unaware of him. This would indicate that the book of Daniel was written after that time.
– Chapter 12 discusses the dead being resurrected, judged, and taken to either heaven and hell. At the time of Daniel, the Jews believed that all persons went to Sheol after death. The concept of heaven and hell was introduced centuries later by the Greeks. It did not appear in Israel until the time of the Maccabean revolt.
– In the final chapter of Daniel, the author describes the “end of history” – a resurrection of the dead, judgment and transfer the resurrected dead to heaven or hell. According to Daniel 12:12, these events would happen during approximately three years (1335 days) following the “abomination of desolation” (the erection of a statue of Zeus in the Jewish temple in 167 BCE). Some Bible scholars have interpreted this period of time as occupying many millennia. But this is clearly not a valid interpretation, because Daniel 12:12 refers to people who “wait and live to see the completion of the interval.”
– Daniel employed creative ingenuity in order to make Jeremiah’s prophecy work. Jeremiah prophesied early in the sixth century, he promised seventy years of Babylonian world domination beginning in 605, followed by punishment of the Babylonians and a restoration of Israel. However, an author, such as the writer of Daniel who was writing between 167 and 164BCE would have had good reason to study that passage carefully. For Jeremiah had promised an ultimate, permanent restoration of Israel after seventy years; yet people were now—under Antiochus IV—unable to worship in Jerusalem, and under pain of death for observing basic Jewish practices.
Thus, either Jeremiah’s prophecy was false, or else what he said must have a hidden meaning—one that only close study could reveal. The author of Daniel chose the latter approach, revealing this esoteric meaning: (Daniel 9:21-22, 24). The author here reinterprets the prophecy of Jeremiah as if the wordshiv’im in the phrase “seventy years” were tacitly repeated and revocalized:shavu’im shiv’im, “seventy weeks” of years, namely 70 x 7 = 490 years. Thus, the author grants this central prophecy of Jeremiah a 420-year extension! This reading enables Jeremiah’s oracle to remain a true prophecy, and Jeremiah a prophet of truth. Certainly, the reading in Daniel is not what Jeremiah meant since Israel’s long desolation did not end after the 420-year extension – Jeremiah’s prophecy was false and so was Daniel’s.
– The earth is described as flat in Daniel 4:11.
– The king tried to think of a way to avoid executing Daniel, but was unsuccessful. (He probably didn’t think too hard, because there was a simple solution to the problem. If the lions were over-fed, they would have lost interest in munching on Daniel). Daniel was thrown in to the pit, but survived. He credited an angel with shutting the lions’ mouths.
The book of Daniel is mainly a history of past events, not a prophecy of the future.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/daniel1.htm
https://ad1914.com/2015/10/27/the-babylonian-exile-shaped-the-future-of-prophetic-speculation-doug-mason/
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dee2 says:
May 12, 2016 at 7:36 am
@PeterB cont’d:
Given the errors/historical inaccuracies in the book of Daniel, it is hazardous to claim that the book directly refers to events of one’s own day. The Watchtower’s (WT) failed predictions based on the book of Daniel certainly proves this:
The WT concluded that the “king of the south” in Daniel 11 is fulfilled in Britain and America, and “the king of the north” in the Soviet Union. (Your Will Be Done On Earth 1958, pp 263 & 278)
In their Your Will Be Done book, the WT stated:
– …the Soviet Union, the Communist power, that since it seized power in Russia in 1917, has held world domination as its aim to this day (i.e. up to 1958 at the time of the book’s publication).
(p. 278)
– Down to the ‘time of the end’ at Armageddon there will be competitive coexistence between the ‘two kings’. (p. 297)
– Jehovah’s angel foretold further aggressions by the Communist king of the north before his end at Armageddon. (p. 300)
– The Soviet Union will gain control of most of the world and its wealth and resources including oil.
(pp 297, 303)
– The Soviet Union will then be terrified by reports issued by the WT and initiate an attack against JWs. (pp 304-305)
– Finally the Soviet Union and America will join forces to attack the JWs which leads to the annihilation of both America and the Soviet Union. (pp 306-307)
– Billions of people on earth who are not JWs will at that time be destroyed. (p. 347)
Despite predictions that the Soviet Union will competitively exist until Armageddon, and will fall at that time after aggressions against the rest of the world, the Soviet Union is now defunct and has fragmented into a Commonwealth of Independent States and former Soviet republics.
In a previous WT book called The New World (1942) “The king of the north” was quite different and “included the Central Powers, or imperial Germany, Roman-Catholic Austria-Hungary, Roman Catholic Italy and Vatican…Japan…” (p. 324)
An even earlier WT book called Thy Kingdom Come (1891) applied the latter part of Daniel chapter 11 to the Napoleonic period in 1799.
http://ed5015.tripod.com/JwKingOfTheNorth25.html
The WT’s multiple failed predictions based on the book of Daniel have however served to prove that the prophecy in Daniel 11 is not a valid prophecy since, for prophecy to be valid, it must be clear and unambiguous. It must not allow for a multitude of possible events.
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dee2 says:
May 12, 2016 at 7:38 am
@PeterB:
“So he(Satan) decided to switch things up a bit.”
Was it Satan who decided to switch things up a bit or God?
According to the Bible Adam and Eve did not know right from wrong when they sinned, they did not know good from evil until AFTER they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It was only AFTER the two ate from the forbidden tree that they developed a moral sense yet in a huff God decided that he would let Satan rule in his stead for a while?
Was that just/merciful given Adam & Eve’s limitation (lacking moral sense, not able to distinguish right from wrong) and considering the fact that courts around the world show mercy to those who do not know right from wrong? A “Not Criminally Responsible” designation is a fundamental principle of many justice systems. Accused persons must have the capacity to understand that what they did was wrong – otherwise they cannot be found guilty of an offence; such persons are not fit subjects for retribution or punishment:
http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/vince-lis-request-for-more-freedom-okd-by-manitoba-review-board/ar-BBq1kDE?ocid=mailsignout
http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/five-year-old-boy-investigated-for-rape-in-manchester-is-one-of-70-children-under-10-to-be-accused-of-sex-attacks/ar-AAgJl0U?li=AAggNb9
Why didn’t God allow Adam & Eve to die in the very day that they ate the forbidden fruit just like he promised so that they wouldn’t pass on sin to their descendants?
According to the bible God destroyed all the wicked people during the flood of Noah’s day and left only the righteous. Couldn’t God have done similarly with Adam & Eve? Couldn’t he have put Adam & Eve to death and keep repeating the process until he found a human pair who would obey before allowing them to have children and sin to enter the world?
Couldn’t God have prevented evil from entering the world in the first place in the case of Adam and Eve and still leave free will in tact? Sin entered the world because God chose to put the tree of the knowledge of good and bad where Adam and Eve, who at the time had no concept of good and evil, could access it. Had God chosen to put the tree out of Adam’s and Eve’s reach, no fruit eaten and thus sin does not enter, while leaving free will intact. God could also have chosen not to make that tree at all too. After all, being all-knowing, God would have known the choice Adam and Eve were going to make especially given the fact that they were lacking in moral sense and did not know how to distinguish between right and wrong, good and evil.
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Searcher says:
May 12, 2016 at 10:25 am
Yes. Why didn’t God put a child-proof cap on the tree of knowledge if it was so bad for Adam and Eve to get into? That would have prevented the whole debacle called the world in the first place. Right? Good Question, but no real answer will ever come of it, because we aren’t God in the first place. Lot’s of wasted hours of theologians time over that one! It doesn’t really matter after all; we’re all here now for what it’s worth. The world is what it is. I just enjoy the good in the world, and manage the best I can with the bad situations to turn them into good. It makes for a much happier life than wringing my hands about something I have completely NO control over. It was almost comical. When I would say this to the elders at my ‘bible study’ it really frustrated them to no end. They just couldn’t addle me with doom, gloom, and fear when I finally made my mind up that I was going to be just fine without their oversight. That was the best feeling to know that no matter what they said or did, it really doesn’t matter. I could be free in my mind to believe what I want. That arena belongs to me and me alone. OK, I digress.
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dee2 says:
May 12, 2016 at 11:42 am
“The world is what it is.”
That’s exactly the point Searcher!
I find it rather absurd that Adam & Eve had a limitation – lacking in moral sense, unable to distinguish right from wrong – yet in a huff God decided that he would let Satan rule in his stead for a while. The explanations offered by the Bible and theologians are inadequate and certainly prove that the Bible is not a divinely inspired book but the ideas of men just like ourselves.
Indeed, “the world is what it is”, the world is just what we see around us, and that’s all that can be said.
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Searcher says:
May 13, 2016 at 9:43 am
Sorry, I meant to say that I agree with you before my diatribe.
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dee2 says:
May 12, 2016 at 9:10 am
The following comment is awaiting moderation:
@PeterB – PART 1:
“I already knew from my studies that the prophecies in Daniel were amazingly accurate. JWs just agreed with my view.”
Is the book of Daniel amazingly accurate?
– The author of Daniel accurately refers to two campaigns which Antiochus Epiphanes (Antiochus IV), the Seleucid king of Syria, led against Egypt, but then speaks of a third, after which Antiochus was predicted to die on the coast of Palestine (Daniel 11:40-45). This did not happen. Whereas the writer had been accurate up to 165 BCE, from that point on he revealed ignorance of the movements of Antiochus Epiphanes, so betraying the fact that he was writing prophecy and not history.
The prediction concerning Antiochus’s final battle and place of death “between the sea and the holy mountain” (Daniel 11:45) was inaccurate, and so we know that this prophecy was completed before the news of his death reached Jerusalem. Antiochus died in Persia, in late 164 BCE.
Prior to Daniel 11:40, the author(s) has been recording past events under the Babylonian, Median, Persian and Greek empires. In Daniel 11:40-45, he really attempts to predict the future. He prophesizes that a king of the south (of the Ptolemaic dynasty) will attack the Greeks in Judea, under Antiochus. The Greeks will win, will lay spoil to all of northeast Africa, and return to Judea where Antiochus will die. The end of history will then occur. The author(s) appeared to be a poor psychic because none of these events actually happened. Antiochus did die in 164 BCE, but it was in Persia. Thus, the book was apparently completed before 164 BCE.
– Daniel 1:1-2 says that Nebuchadnezzar attacked Jerusalem and took away exiles and spoils in Jehoiakim’s third year. However, there is no record elsewhere of such an event, in the Bible or the Babylonian Chronicle both of which indicate that Jerusalem fell to Nebuchadnezzar for the first time in 597 BCE.
– According to Daniel 2:28, God give a revelation concerning “what will happen at the end of days” to gentile (thus pagan) rulers. If the effect of the various events was so great on the kings, why is there no evidence outside the Bible of this effect?
– There is no historical merit to the stories of Babylonian and Persian kings acknowledging or adopting the God of the Jews who lived in exile among them.
– In the case of “Darius the Mede,” whose laws could not be altered, why wasn’t his decree, according to Daniel 6:26,carried out by succeeding kings?
– There is no place in history for “Darius the Mede”:
The city of Babylon was taken over by the Persians in 539, and this leads to another problem in the book of Daniel, which says the city fell to “Darius the Mede.” Chapters 6 and 9 are dated in his reign, but no such figure has been found in any of the texts from the ancient Near East, and indeed there is no place in history for the reign of such a person. Nabonidus was succeeded immediately by Cyrus the Persian, who is the last king to be named in Daniel (1:21 and 10:1).
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PeterB says:
May 12, 2016 at 12:07 pm
Many good things to think about you all. But, I believe that most of you are at a point where ( ok not let’s play my “IF” game ) even if God ( IF there is one ) made you believe one special night by personally proving to you that he exists and that the Bible is accurate, and that JWs are the chosen Org, and that the Org will be making ALL THE CHANGES they need to make in order to get your approval…I believe you all would say in the back of your mind ( even as God is sitting right next to you ) “Crap! OMG, now I have to do something about this? I don’t want to HAVE to do ANYTHING! I was loving my complete freedom from care when it comes to God! CRAAAAAP!”
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Grace says:
May 12, 2016 at 3:26 pm
PeterB,
My conscience is clear, I don’t have anything to justify “if” God was going to ask me at the end of it all. On the other hand the WT has a lot of answering up to do.
If God chose this religion, then why the hell did he give so many bad signals that has cost the lives of so many devoted members? Did he really come & inspect in 1914? If so, then why has “this generation” extended to 3 generations passing & counting since that inspection?
Remember the “millions now living were never meant to die” according cult leader Rutherford. Yet they have all died. Wouldn’t that have been the same as the lie satan told Eve?… “you positively will not die”.
What about the no blood doctrine that seemed to have come about in 1945 after WW2, then became a disfellowshipping offence. THE UNTOLD NUMBER OF LIVES SACRIFICED at the orders of the next cult leader, Nathan Knorr (?) & his regime. But from 1982 on (because of legal reasons) this death sentence has conveniently been adjusted to allow blood fractions. Tell me if there is not blood on the hands of these Cult leaders?
Remember the “youths who put God first” brochure….innocent children dying over a harsh doctrine that tore families apart. The death of those poor little souls means nothing now & rumour has it that they are planning more changes with that doctrine.
Then we have the child rape policies that they refuse to budge on & have been shown up to be utterly ridiculous to the Australian Royal Commission. A policy that tacks itself to the old laws. A policy that leads to distrust towards the professional help needed from the superior authorities. A policy that leads to the lack of support through shunning which often leads to depression & worse suicide (or attempted).
Sorry Peter but you are warning the wrong people about Gods judgement. After all, we’re not the ones implementing our flipflop laws that are often life-threatening then demanding obedience with the message; do or die!
I could go on & on with other legalistic matters that the cult leaders have placed on to the members but it’s all here & other websites if you want to open your mind to the possibility that you are in a satanic operated death cult.
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dee2 says:
May 12, 2016 at 3:59 pm
PeterB:
History shows that mankind’s actions have caused major harmful events on a worldwide scale and so there is always an expectation for such events. I get the impression however, that you seem to be of the opinion that if any such major event should occur it has Biblical significance and so you are consumed with trying to impute Biblical significance to particular events which you believe will happen. The events which you are anticipating could very well happen, however, it is one thing to believe that these events will happen and another thing to attempt to fit these anticipated events to so-called Bible “prophecy”.
As I have proven above, attempting to fit world events to so-called Bible “prophecy” such as is claimed to be written in the book of Daniel is a VERY BAD IDEA. In other words, the events which you anticipate could very well occur but they would have no Biblical significance since the book of Daniel is not historically accurate, it contains failed prophecies regarding past events, it does not contain predictions of mankind’s future and therefore cannot be used for this purpose.
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Winston Smith says:
May 12, 2016 at 4:13 pm
William Miller
Nelson Barbour
Charles Russell
Joseph Ruhtherford
Nathan Knorr
Fred Franz
What do they all have in common? They all presumed to believe that they had the proper interpretation of scripture and knew with certainty that the end would come in their lifetime. And what did they all do? They all wasted their lives waiting for something that never arrived. Even in Rutherford’s own words ‘he made an ass of himself.’
There have always been doomsday cults and believers waiting for the end of all things and they have all wasted their lives and made asses of themselves. I choose not to be one of them. But each one can make their own choice in this regard. But as the old saying goes ‘those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.’
WS
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Searcher says:
May 13, 2016 at 9:42 am
Yeah PeterB? And if my grandma had wheels, then she would be a bicycle. CRAAAAAP!!!
This remark was basically meant to show how unrealistic the chain that you described actually is. None of the chain of events has any evidence or proof of happening. It’s only imagination and speculation. Doesn’t lend too much proof that JW’s are the one and only true religion. What Grace, Dee and WinstonSmith have to say has merit proof. It’s history and fact about the Watchtower. The GB cannot cover that up or change it no matter how hard they try. It’s out there, and it’s RECORDED history about the WTBTS.
I don’t mean this to be harsh or to belittle you in any way. I really don’t want to belittle anyone. I say this because you and so many others that may have the opportunity to read this forum and decide for themselves what is real and what is lies. That is to think about their own beliefs concerning what the Watchtower cult propaganda machine has published and conveniently updated over the years (including their ever-changing version of the bible). However, people believe what they want to believe. I choose to believe the Watchtower is a facade and a ruse for power hungry, control-freak leaders. My conclusion is based on the published facts that I have seen from many more sources other than the Watchtower and the Watchtower publications themselves.
I wish you the best.
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Tara says:
May 12, 2016 at 12:46 pm
Anyone watched Lucifer on tv? Just asking. lol
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Winston Smith says:
May 12, 2016 at 4:14 pm
I have seen Will Ferrell portray Lucifer on SNL. Does that count?
WS
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Tara says:
May 12, 2016 at 5:23 pm
Lol I haven’t seen that. I did enjoy the first season of Lucifer though. Thoroughly nice chap… British you know.
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Chrid says:
May 14, 2016 at 10:11 am
I’m sorry. There was nothing wrong with that video. They were reaffirming to them their position in a world of moral decline. Whether you are a Christian Lloyd or not the Gospel isn’t supposed to be a popular message. Proclaiming truth in any instance even other than religion isn’t popular. Also, the liberals have gotten us to misuse the terms listed as -phobic. This video didn’t promote any FEAR of anything. Phobic would be a misnomer. As a homosexual myself who doesn’t practice I didn’t see anything wrong with this video.
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Winston Smith says:
May 14, 2016 at 11:40 am
Right! And when the Nazis produced anti-Jewish media in the 1930’s and 1940’s (or when Neo-Nazis do it today) they were just reaffirming their position. And when the Ku Klux Klan advocates against blacks in the USA, they are doing the same thing. I am glad that is cleared up.
How about we say they have a right to their intolerant views and to express them, even to their children, but we also have a right to speak out against the intolerance and hatred.
WS
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Chris says:
May 14, 2016 at 6:32 pm
Yes because I’m sure putting Jews to death wishing death of them and eradicating them and putting black peoples to death is the exact same as saying we believe in one man and woman and explain to them what we believe. Yes same thing. . Liberal logic.
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dee2 says:
May 14, 2016 at 8:08 pm
It’s certainly curious to hear about a self- proclaimed homosexual who doesn’t practice homosexuality but who believes in one man and woman.
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Chris says:
May 15, 2016 at 1:11 am
I’m sure just like those who are pedophiles who know its wrong. They believe 1 Cor 6:9-11. They believe the bible and I think it’s great. So I agree with them on everything? And yes I don’t agree with gay marriage. But what I can’t stand is everyone labeling you some negative term because you don’t agree with something. Hey Jesus said it would be like
This in the last day. And it’s not a homophobic video it’s them explain that “men who lie with me will not inherit Gods kingdom”. That’s just what they believe. There was nothing homophobic about this video.
And your analogy of it being the same (which was terribly done by the way) is not the same. God won’t starve them and line them up and hang them and gas chamber them. Again crappy logic. Everyone has a choice. Jews didn’t. I don’t agree with the JWs about who will and will
Not make it to paradise because it completely contradicts their “righteous and unrighteous” ressurection theory.
dee2 says:
May 14, 2016 at 8:18 pm
BTW, in the video, the children are taught that homosexuals won’t make it into the Paradise Earth……….I wonder if that will happen because the God of the JWs will eradicate homosexuals from the earth and put them to death?………..hmmmmm………..it seems it just might be the same thing after all.
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dee2 says:
May 15, 2016 at 7:37 am
Chris:
“Hey Jesus said it would be like
This in the last day.”
– What do you mean by “like This”? What does “This” refer to?
– Where did Jesus make such a statement?
– When would “the last day” be? Are we in “the last day” now?
______
“…..men who lie with me will not inherit Gods kingdom”.
– So what then, will become of/what will happen to those men who lie with men since they will not inherit God’s kingdom?
______
“God won’t starve them and line them up and hang them and gas chamber them. Again crappy logic.”
– So what will God do to homosexuals then?
______
“I don’t agree with the JWs about who will and will Not make it to paradise because it completely contradicts their “righteous and unrighteous” ressurection theory.”
– As I recall, according to JW theology, EVERYONE – homosexual or not – who dies BEFORE Armageddon strikes will be resurrected on the Paradise Earth. So one wonders why the JWs didn’t state this in the video.
– When persons who were homosexuals are resurrected on the Paradise Earth will they stop being homosexuals? If they do, how will this happen? If they don’t, what will be their fate/what will happen to them?
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dee2 says:
May 15, 2016 at 7:56 am
Chris:
When the righteous and the unrighteous (homosexuals will fall into this group, according to you) are resurrected on the Paradise Earth:
– What will be the fate of the righteous?
– What will be the fate of the unrighteous?
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dee2 says:
May 15, 2016 at 8:32 am
Chris:
Additionally, let me not assume anything:
– Where will the resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous take place?
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dee2 says:
May 15, 2016 at 8:32 am
Chris:
Additionally, let me not assume anything:
– Where will the resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous take place?
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Chris says:
May 15, 2016 at 12:33 pm
Dee
I’m not a JW. We believe ALL of mankind will be resurrected Gay or not. We believe that only the Church (Bride Class) is on trial for life. Everyone else will be resurrected during the Millennial Age. We do not believe God is judging the world of mankind in the Gospel Age. All will come out of the grave. The JWs have inserted the word “a Memorial” infront of the word “tombs” in John 5:28,29 to prove their doctrine that not everyone will be resurrected but only those in God’s Memory.
I’m a Bible Student. Not a JW they have a problem with switching the word “ALL” with “All sorts of”. That’s so wrong.
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dee2 says:
May 15, 2016 at 1:51 pm
Chris,
I note that you did not answer any of my questions above.
Anyway, if “ALL of mankind will be resurrected Gay or not. We believe that only the Church (Bride Class) is on trial for life. Everyone else will be resurrected during the Millennial Age. We do not believe God is judging the world of mankind in the Gospel Age. All will come out of the grave”,
– then as per your other comments above, how can you claim that “men who lie with men will not inherit God’s kingdom”?
– Also, where will this resurrection take place?
*******
Do you anticipate that homosexuals who will be resurrected will cease practicing homosexuality?
If so, how will this happen?
What if the homosexuals who will be resurrected do not cease practicing homosexuality? What will their fate be?
********
“We believe that only the Church (Bride Class) is on trial for life.”
– What exactly does this mean?
– What if there are homosexuals among the Church (Bride Class)?
*******
You only mentioned homosexuals who die and whose fate will be a resurrection according to your theology. What about homosexuals who do not die but who are alive AT THE THE TIME Armageddon strikes/ when Jesus comes? What will their fate be?
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Chris says:
May 15, 2016 at 7:14 pm
Dee.
Men who lie with men will not inherit Gods kingdom. Yet again you assume I’m a JW. We believe that all of mankind will be resurrected. Those in the millennium who do the things as shown in 1 Cor 6:9-11 will not inherit the kingdom. Not today. In this Gospel Age only the Bride class is on trial for life. God is not dealing with the world of mankind right now. He is only calling out the bride whom he will use to bless the world as promised by Abraham “in your seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed”.
Armageddon the the social collapse and complete anarchy before the Millennium. Not a war of God on us. It will be social and civil unrest. Not a way for second death as JWs claim. They believe it is final on them. However, they haven’t sinned against the Holy Spirit therefore they will be resurrected.
– No gays (practicing) are not part of the Bride class for 1 Cor 6:9-11 says “for this is what some of you were”.
– the dead will be resurrected on earth. Else wise how can the 144,000 rule over or on the earth?
Yes people will die in Armageddon. But this is not a final judgement. Death aquits us of our sins. They’ve died and now they will be resurrected. The Bride will be in heaven with Christ. Mankind will walk up the way of holiness. The bible tells us at Isaiav 26:9 “when your judgments come upon the earth ALL THE INHABITANTS WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS”. the millennium is a learning process for the world of mankind.
And no not all those who are resurrected resist homosexuality. Remember some will be misled yet again when Satan is let out at the end of the millennial Age.
You can email me at Johnsc11@aol.com
I hate typing on these forums.
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Daniel Bonawitt says:
May 15, 2016 at 8:06 am
I can’t wait until paradise comes! Then those who were gay that are ressurected won’t have to feel whatever it is they have to go through in this imperfect sinful world. Being gay is just a imperfection in some people DNA, Jehovah didn’t create us to be gay. If he did then he wouldn’t have told Adam and EVE to “become many and fill the earth”. It is hard for gay people to accept the truth about how God really feels about homosexuals, because they don’t want to accept the fact that they are wrong because they are proud of there homosexuality. Or they don’t believe that God doesn’t accept them because he created them that way. But as a Christian’s we know that those ways of thinking are wrong, but Jehovah WILL NOT make people do the right thing, whether being homo or changing some other aspect of ones life, then we wouldn’t have free will.
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dee2 says:
May 15, 2016 at 8:41 am
Daniel Bonawitt:
“I can’t wait until paradise comes! Then those who were gay that are ressurected won’t have to feel whatever it is they have to go through in this imperfect sinful world.”
– It seems you are assuming that all gays will die so that they can be resurrected?
– What will happen to those homosexuals who DO NOT DIE BEFORE the Paradise Earth comes but who are alive AT THE TIME Armageddon strikes?
– How will Paradise correct/get rid of homosexuality?
*******
“Being gay is just a imperfection in some people DNA…….”.
– How did this “imperfection in some people DNA” come about? What mechanism is responsible for this “imperfection in some people DNA”?
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Daniel Bonawitt says:
May 15, 2016 at 9:31 am
1) no I wasn’t assuming all gays will die before Armageddon, just saying those you do happen to die before will be resurrected and know the what it feels like without the imperfection of sin. John 5: 28,29
2) when Armageddon comes those who die in it won’t be resurrected, their fate is sealed. The bible likens Armageddon to the days of Noah. All those who died in the flood won’t be resurrected either. They had a chance to listen to the message and they ignored it, people will have plenty of time to hear but most won’t listen because of their own selfishness.
3) Jehovah created Adam and Eve as perfect humans, he doesn’t change and neither does his will, once humans are perfect then they won’t have sin.
4) Adam is responsible for all of our imperfections, they bible says at ROM. 5:12 “through one man sin has entered the world and through sin death has spread to all men because all have sinned.” So once we are resurrected, or live through Armageddon, then that sin we have now will be no more because Jesus’ sacrafice pays for it.
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Caroline says:
May 15, 2016 at 9:51 am
@Daniel, you must realize that during the thousand years that men will all be imperfect still because at the end of that thousand years, there will be another Armageddon where all the “nations” of the earth will gather together against Jehovah and war with him again and then those who Jehovah doesn’t kill then, will be ushered into the paradise.
Who is to blame during those thousand years for all those who will be wanting to fight against Jehovah at the end of the thousand years, when Satan will be abyssed?
Think about it?
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Daniel Bonawitt says:
May 15, 2016 at 1:25 pm
Yes I know, we will slowly be attain perfection over the 1000 years physically and mentally. Meaning people won’t be dying from natural causes, and our way of reasoning will be adjusted on subjects like homosexuality so that everyone will have to know the truth. But just like Satan, those Angel’s who followed him, also Adam and Eve, people will make there own decisions selfishly or not to serve Jehovah. Rev 20:3 explains that Satan will be let out for a short time after the 1000 yrs until he is thrown into the lake of fire along with the humans who follow him .
Chris says:
May 15, 2016 at 12:36 pm
Daniel,
Much of what’s you said is speculation. Where does it say in the bible that those who died in the flood won’t be resurrected? Or those who died in Armageddon.
1. If the only unforgivable sin is sin against the Holy Spirit how can the world of mankind who doesn’t have the Holy Spirit?
2. Is only JWs will survive the end then doesn’t teaching that we much join your organization mean that’s your a cult? And don’t say you don’t teach that people who aren’t JW will all die when I have many watchtower quotes to back it up.
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Chris says:
May 15, 2016 at 12:38 pm
Adding to #1 if they haven received the Holy Spirit then how can they not be resurrected?
dee2 says:
May 15, 2016 at 12:32 pm
Daniel Bonawitt:
According to the video, the Bible states that men who lie with men will not inherit God’s kingdom. So how can you claim that homosexuals will be resurrected on the Paradise Earth?
*********
Based on your comments above, it is therefore best then, that homosexuals die BEFORE Armageddon strikes in order to guarantee that they will be resurrected on the Paradise Earth. We had better let the homosexuals know about this.
********
“The bible likens Armageddon to the days of Noah. All those who died in the flood won’t be resurrected either.”
– How is it that God is going to once again carry out another global annihilation when, according to the Bible, God made an unconditional covenant with Noah that he will NEVER AGAIN DESTROY THE EARTH by means of a flood (Genesis 9:9-17). God promised to keep this covenant, regardless of what man would subsequently do, regardless of whether man would subsequently continue to sin (unconditional covenant). It is a covenant not only between God and Noah, but between God and every living creature (Genesis 9:9-10, 16).
It is an “everlasting covenant,” between God and Noah, and every generation after him (Genesis 9:12). It is God’s promise that He will never again destroy the earth by means of a flood (Genesis 9:11).
– The flood was the world’s first global annihilation, according to the Bible. Was it worth it? Did it accomplish anything given that as you have stated, God will once again carry out another global annihilation by means of Armageddon?
– The WT claims that there will be animals in Paradise yet you have stated that the bible likens Armageddon to the days of Noah/the Flood.
According to the Bible, God was angry with human wickedness but he destroyed animals as well in the worldwide Flood. The animals had nothing to do with sin, yet they were killed anyway.
God wiped out every living creature on the planet just to punish the majority of ONE sinful species.
Dolphins, whales, sharks, fishes, manatees etc., obviously they wouldn’t have drowned – why did God choose to kill the land animals but not the sea animals?
– If God killed everyone except Noah and his family because of sin why didn’t he just kill Adam and Eve when they sinned back in the Garden of Eden? That was when the death if humans was needed the most to prevent evil from entering the world in the first place so that God would not have to once again carry out another global annihilation at Armageddon.
Why didn’t God allow Adam and Eve to die in the very day that they ate the forbidden fruit just like he promised, at a time when they had no children, so that they would not have passed sin on to their descendants?
– According to Genesis 6:5, 13:
“Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually……Then God said to Noah, “The end of all flesh has come before Me; for the earth is filled with violence because of them; and behold, I am about to destroy them with the earth.”
Babies/infants were destroyed during the Flood – what was their sin/wickedness to deserve this?
– Is the Flood story in the Bible a reliable story given that the story appears to involve the meshing of two separate stories:
Genesis 7:15: In the story of the Flood, these verses have Noah collecting two of each species of animals – one male and one female. Genesis 7:2-3 specifies 7 pairs of clean animals and birds and 1 pair of unclean animals. Genesis 7:11 describes water coming from the heavens and from below the ground to generate the worldwideflood. However, Genesis 7:4 describes all of the water falling as rain. Genesis 7:11, 7:17, 7:24 and 8:3 specify different intervals for the flood duration which have no apparent resolution.
– What proof is there outside of the Bible that there was a global Flood during Noah’s day?
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dee2 says:
May 16, 2016 at 4:03 am
******Correction:
God wiped out every living creature on the planet………..
should read:
God wiped out almost all living creatures on the planet……….
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dee2 says:
May 21, 2016 at 12:34 pm
How is it that God is going to once again carry out another global annihilation given that, according to the Bible, God made the following promise to Noah at Genesis 8:21:
“And when the Lord smelled the pleasing odor, the Lord said in his heart, “I will NEVER AGAIN CURSE THE GROUND because of man, for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; NEITHER WILL I EVER AGAIN DESTROY EVERY LIVING CREATURE as I have done.”
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dee2 says:
May 15, 2016 at 12:35 pm
Daniel Bonawitt:
“They had a chance to listen to the message and they ignored it, people will have plenty of time to hear but most won’t listen because of their own selfishness.
– Are you aware that approximately 250,000 persons are born each day? How will 8 million JWs (according to WT statistics) reach everyone with the message so that they can choose to listen and avoid being destroyed?
********
“Jehovah created Adam and Eve as perfect humans, he doesn’t change and neither does his will,”
– What proof do you have that God created Adam and Eve perfect?
********
“……..once humans are perfect then they won’t have sin.”
– How will humans be made perfect so that they will not sin?
– What has caused humans to be imperfect so that they sin?
********
“Adam is responsible for all of our imperfections……..”
– So is it Adam who altered the DNA of his descendants so that
“imperfection is in some people DNA” which makes them gay?
*********
“So once we are resurrected, or live through Armageddon, then that sin we have now will be no more because Jesus’ sacrafice pays for it.”
– How will this impact the “imperfection in some people DNA” which makes them gay?
********
Resurrected homosexuals are still likely to sin during the millennium reign of Christ given that, according to WT theology, persons won’t be made perfect until the end of the thousand years. What will happen to the homosexuals who sin during that time?
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Daniel Bonawitt says:
May 15, 2016 at 2:31 pm
You know if you really want to know the answer to all of your questions you can access all of the information on jw.org. It kind feels like you are not interested in knowing the truth, and I have better things to do than aruge with you and prove points from the bible all day…..especially if you don’t care or believe everything the bible says
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dee2 says:
May 15, 2016 at 2:18 pm
Daniel Bonawitt:
“Yes I know, we will slowly be attain perfection over the 1000 years physically and mentally. Meaning people won’t be dying from natural causes, and our way of reasoning will be adjusted on subjects like homosexuality so that EVERYONE WILL HAVE TO KNOW THE TRUTH.” (emphasis mine).
– JWs know the truth NOW so how it is that they are not attaining perfection NOW? Why are JWs still dying, why are they still committing sins despite knowing the truth NOW?
– Is it just simply knowing the truth that will cause a person to stop dying or committing sins in the Paradise Earth?
– In your other comments above, you stated that “imperfection is in some people DNA” which makes them gay. How will a homosexual’s simply knowing the truth in the Paradise Earth change this situation?
*******
“…….Satan will be let out for a short time after the 1000 yrs until he is thrown into the lake of fire along with the humans who follow him.”
– If any of the resurrected follow Satan, will they be thrown into the lake of fire?
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Daniel Bonawitt says:
May 15, 2016 at 2:37 pm
No matter what question you ask or statement you make , if you think is going to get me to change my beliefs or get me to think a different way….its just not going to happen. After all I don’t have questions about what the bible teaches, but it seems like your the one unsure. Try saying a prayer to Jehovah and asking for clarity on one or two of your questions, and try that everyday. Have a good dad
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Victor says:
May 20, 2016 at 5:36 am
Know what? I did this prayer thing, I prayed intensely to Jehovah to let me know what to do. And he showed me clearly to leave JWs. Perhaps you should follow your own advice.
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dee2 says:
May 15, 2016 at 4:30 pm
Daniel Bonawitt:
“You know if you really want to know the answer to all of your questions you can access all of the information on jw.org.”
It was you who made the comments on this site, so why do I need to go to jw.org, why can’t I get an answer from you?
********
“It kind feels like you are not interested in knowing the truth, and I have better things to do than aruge with you and prove points from the bible all day……”
I am very much interested in finding out if what you stated in your comments is “the truth” which is why I asked you those questions.
You have however, not answered my questions but have instead deflected them with your comments above.
It definitely seems that you do not expect persons to ask questions in order to “Test all things” as the Bible admonishes (1 Thessalonians 5:21), but to instead just gullibly go along with what you have stated and what JWs teach without question.
*******
“…….especially if you don’t care or believe everything the bible says.”
No I do not believe everything which the Bible says and I am sure you don’t either. The Bible states that the earth is flat according to Isaiah 11:12; Job 38:13; Jeremiah 16:19; Daniel 4:11; Matthew 4:8; Revelation 7:1.
Do you believe this?
********
“No matter what question you ask or statement you make , if you think is going to get me to change my beliefs or get me to think a different way….its just not going to happen.”
– How is my asking questions based on the comments which you made changing your mind? Changing your mind is entirely up to you, that is your decision. I am here to ask questions based on the comments which you made as I would like to know if what you stated is really “the truth”.
As I have already stated, it definitely seems that you do not expect persons to ask questions in order to “Test all things” as the Bible admonishes (1 Thessalonians 5:21) but to instead just gullibly go along with what you have stated and what JWs teach without question.
– Also, I am sure you go preaching trying to change people’s minds so that you can convert them to the JW religion. Why do you do this to persons if you don’t want it done to you?
*******
“After all I don’t have questions about what the bible teaches, but it seems like your the one unsure.”
In addition to the foregoing example of the Bible’s teaching that the earth is flat, the Bible also teaches that the earth is stationary according to Psalms 93:1; 104:5; 96:10.
I do not agree with this based on scientific evidence which has been provided. Do you agree with these Bible teachings?
*******
“Try saying a prayer to Jehovah and asking for clarity on one or two of your questions, and try that everyday.”
For sure, I am going to pray to God and ask him to clarify whether the earth is flat or if it is stationary as I have never done this before. I will be certain to let you know if I hear anything back from God regarding these questions.
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Chris says:
May 25, 2016 at 1:07 pm
“In addition to the foregoing example of the Bible’s teaching that the earth is flat, the Bible also teaches that the earth is stationary according to Psalms 93:1; 104:5; 96:10.”
This is not what the Bible says. Why would you assume that the “Earth is firmly established and will not be moved” means that the earth is stationary? Where does the Bible Indicate that this means that the earth doesn’t physically move? Can you prove this this was the view of the Jews? If so why do you hold that this literally means the earth does not move? can’t this simply mean that the earth is fixed in its orbit and not on it’s axis? Why can’t this mean that it is fixed in relation to us being that it always with us and and i don’t wake up in space.
You’re statement is illogical and is a superficial reasoning on those scriptures. They are generally thrown by atheists who have no deep knowledge of the bible.
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dee2 says:
May 15, 2016 at 6:47 pm
Daniel Bonawitt:
“1) no I wasn’t assuming all gays will die before Armageddon, just saying those you do happen to die before will be resurrected and know the what it feels like without the imperfection of sin. John 5: 28,29″
John 5:28-29 states:
“Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil WILL RISE TO BE CONDEMNED.” (emphasis mine).
According to John 5:28, 29 which you have applied to homosexuals, they (homosexuals) will rise/be resurrected to be condemned. They are not going to live based on this scripture, so how can you claim that they will “know what it feels like without the imperfection of sin”? I imagine that they would have to live in order to be able to know this?
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Chris says:
May 15, 2016 at 7:28 pm
But like I said Dee. Email me Johnsc11@aol.com
Typing on forums on a cellphone sucks. My laptop at school doesn’t allow us to comment on forums. 🙂
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Winston Smith says:
May 16, 2016 at 6:59 am
A couple clarifications I’d like to add to this chain that I noticed about it:
1.) Gay marriage was mentioned at one point. In this argumentation, Gay Marriage is a red hering and not germane to the argument about Watchtower’s condemnation of all homosexuals (whether they are married or not they are still gay).
2.) Liberals or liberalism. This has been mentioned several times. It’s Straw Man rhetoric. To associate anyone who supports the fact that homosexuals have no control over their sexual orientation and should not be persecuted for it with liberalism is poor argumentation. Personal politics (mine which by the way are conservative-republican) have little bearing on the issue as to whether Watchtower’s video was or was not appropriate.
WS
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Chris says:
May 16, 2016 at 8:22 am
Winston,
They don’t condemn homosexuals. I have homosexual tendencies and I have never felt so welcome.
One thing we have to recognize, is that Bible Students before Rutherford believed that all of mankind would be resurrected. JWs have condemned them.
I am Bible Student.
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Winston Smith says:
May 16, 2016 at 4:59 pm
Chris,
By “they” I assume you mean “true” bible students and / or Christians and not JWs? At the end of your comment you say that JWs have condemned them.
So don’t you feel it is inappropriate of the Watchtower society to teach young children that homosexuals won’t be allowed in the Kingdom, hence condemning them? Who is the watchtower society to pass judgement? Isnt it reserved for God to judge? i.e. Matt 7:1-5.
WS
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Chris says:
May 25, 2016 at 2:54 pm
No I don’t. The bible wouldn’t condemn homosexuality and teach us to teach others about Gods Ways. Judging is condemning. I have not condemned anyone.
dee2 says:
May 16, 2016 at 3:07 pm
Hi Chris,
I would like to offer a suggestion should you still be experiencing problems with commenting on forums. Does your mobile phone have a Tethering and Portable Hotspot feature? It should be included in the Settings of your phone or perhaps you could contact your mobile service provider or whoever you obtained your phone from to find out. If your phone has this feature, then you can use it as a Wi-Fi hotspot to connect your laptop to the internet.
I hope that you will be able to find a solution to your problem as I prefer to respond to you in the forum so that others can benefit from our exchanges or add their comments if they wish.
******
“Men who lie with men will not inherit Gods kingdom. Yet again you assume I’m a JW. We believe that all of mankind will be resurrected. Those in the millennium who do the things as shown in 1 Cor 6:9-11 will not inherit the kingdom. Not today.”
– Claiming that homosexuals will not receive a divine penalty now/today but at a future anticipated period instead, does not change the fact that homosexuals are still being discriminated against by your theology.
What your theology has done is to simply delay/defer/shift THE TIME AT WHICH/WHEN homosexuals will be discriminated against: “we won’t discriminate against homosexuals now, we will do it at a future time”, is what your theology is saying.
******
“No gays (practicing) are not part of the Bride class for 1 Cor 6:9-11 says “for this is what some of you were”.
– Does the Bride Class exist on earth today?
“The Bride will be in heaven with Christ.”
– When will the Bride Class be in heaven with Christ? Does this happen all at once or is it over a period of time?
******
“We believe that all of mankind (including homosexuals) will be resurrected.”
“the dead will be resurrected on earth.”
– What will happen to homosexuals when they are resurrected?
– Will people continue to die or will persons be living forever on the earth at this time?
– Will people continue to have children at this time?
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dee2 says:
May 16, 2016 at 3:10 pm
Hi Chris cont’d,
“Yes people will die in Armageddon.”
– Who are the people who will die during Armageddon?
– Why will they die? What will be the reason for their death?
– How will they die? Who will put them to death?
– Will there be persons who will survive Armageddon?
If so, who are these persons?
Why do they survive Armageddon and are not killed?
*******
“And no not all those who are resurrected resist homosexuality. Remember some will be misled yet again when Satan is let out at the end of the millennial Age.”
– How will it be possible for the resurrected who do not resist homosexuality to die again when the Bible states that you can only die once?
***Hebrews 9:27 New International Version (NIV):
“Just as people are destined to DIE ONCE, and after that to face judgment”.
***Luke 20:34-36 (NIV):
“The people of THIS AGE marry and are given in marriage. But those who are considered worthy of taking part in THE AGE TO COME and IN THE RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD will neither marry nor be given in marriage, and they CAN NO LONGER DIE; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.”
(emphasis mine).
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Chris says:
May 16, 2016 at 5:59 pm
Dee-
It’s not a problem with the server or internet its typing all of my thoughts on a cell phone. But I busted out my laptop.
The Bible is silent when they says how things will happen in the millennium. And atheists and intellectuals like to think they are correct when someone in a religion says “I don’t know.
You asked “What will happen to homosexuals when they are resurrected” well the same goes for alcoholics, pedophiles and all others that claim they have it in their DNA. If they want to come into harmony with God they will have to abandoned those tendencies. Now we can only speculate since the bible is very silent on “the age to come” how mankind will be brought into harmony with God. Everyone si born with something that they have to fight. But we know that it will not be easy since Rev 2:27 says “and he will rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received authority from my Father.”
The Bible teaches that mankind will walk up the highway of holiness.
“And a highway will be there; it will be called the Way of Holiness; it will be for those who walk on that Way. The unclean will not journey on it; wicked fools will not go about on it.” Isaiah 35:8
You asked “who will die in armageddon.” Remember that the concept of Armageddon being a battle between God an man in which God destroys mankind is a JW theology. According to the Bible it is when mankind goes into complete anarchy. It’s not “oh well she’s a lesbian she’s going to die.” That’s JW’s Armageddon is a better between mankind and themselves. We can already in these days see a huge class war. We have black vs white, native vs foreigner, Christian vs atheist, Muslim against Christian, Male vs female. Eventually this will all clash.
You asked about how can the homosexuals die again when the bible says we only die one? This reminds be of a question you asked earlier in which your logic was completely off. You asked how can Hod destroy the world AGAIN when he said that he would never again destroy mankind with a flood? Well who says it has to be with a flood? Mankind only dies the ADAMIC death one time. All of mankind is under the Adamic Sentence of death. Jesus’ death guarantees the resurrection for all only one time. Afterwards in the millennium the bible shows that those who do not go into life thereafter is called the Second Death from which there is no resurrection. What’s a second death it not like the first? Jesus only died one time and we are resurrected one time. When we have perfect knowledge and we follow satan at the end of the millennium and we go into the second death then thats it. He will not die a second time.
Many think that Judgement is the rendering of a verdict. However Isaiah 26:9 says “…When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness.” If we are judged heaven or hell at death then how can we learn righteousness?
When mankind is awaken from the sleep of death they will for 1000 years walk up the Highway of Holiness and learn God’s ways.
Isaiah 2:3- Many peoples will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the temple of the God of Jacob. HE WILL TEACH US HIS WAYS, so that we may walk in his paths.” The law will go out from Zion, the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.”
This has not happened yet. This is in the millennium. If judgement after resurrection is a final judgment then why in this scripture is there people saying he will teach them his ways?
You stated that all our theology has done is shift/defer this process of when homosexuals will be discriminated against.
-Yes absolutely. God sets the rules not us. When you own a house and someone likes to watch porn on their phones do you allow them to do it because thats just who they are and who are you to judge? Absolutely not. They may have a problem but you don’t have too tolerate it. It seems to me that we consider homosexuality normal because of our society. The fact it is it not normal It is an imperfection that God allows to exist. God said we are not to live that lifestyle and therefore he will in the millennium let them know what is required of them. Those who obey now by not living that lifestyle are deemed overcomes. Now we can only speculate as to when their desires will be removed or if they will be resurrected without these desires. We can only guess. But your question can also be applied to pedophiles in which they believe that their desires are natural and has had them since their youth. Do we consider it discrimination when a 15 year old sleeps with a 28 year old? Why not? Its natural and they say they’ve always felt like that.
You asked “will people still bear children?” Again we can only speculate.
We believe that mankind will have atlas 100 years to obey or be cut off. Some even today do not want to believe in a God. They would rather die. But everyone will have at least 100 years in the millennium to make progress.
Isaiah 65:20 “the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere child; the one who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed.”
But I must end here i used to debate for days and I don’t usually do this anymore. Too much time and energy. But like I said email me!
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Sanna says:
May 17, 2016 at 6:48 am
JW teach us that you can be gay if you just don´t act gay. And a staight JW has to get married if he/she is to horny, because it´s not allowed to masturbate. So what do they expect a homosexual JW to do if he/she have lust? Pray?
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Doc Obvious says:
May 17, 2016 at 7:46 am
I love how Watchtower Bible and Tract Society waits till the end of United States President Obama’s presidency’s last term, to release the BECOME JEHOVAH’S FRIEND Lesson 22: One Man, One Woman children’s video. Why did Watchtower wait so long? Do they have fear of United States President Obama and what he would do to them?
Why is it that a woman in Kentucky and man who creates duck calls can address the issue when it starts, but an organization who believes they have God’s backing cannot join their voices to the woman and man who stand up for God.
To me, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is a follower and not a leader. Instead of being bold, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is in hiding until the very end.
What a bunch of wimps!
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dee2 says:
May 17, 2016 at 5:31 pm
Chris,
“In this Gospel Age only the Bride class is on trial for life. God is not dealing with the world of mankind right now. He is only calling out the bride……….”
Where exactly in the Bible is this stated?
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Chris says:
May 18, 2016 at 5:49 am
Good morning,
Yes Jesus in the Gospel Age is on working with the Bride class ONLY. There is not one scripture that says this directly.Its the plan from beginning to end of this age. You have to look at the plan from the beginning. When Adam and Eve sinned and fell God has been working since then to bring mankind back into harmony with him. He promised Abraham “Through your seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed.” He first offered the privilege to Israel that they would be kings and priests over the earth IF they were faithful. They would be given the responsibility of blessing the nations. However, Jehovah did not work with any other nation unless it was in his plan such as conquering Caanan. He did not commission them to convert the world to their ways or be doomed. Then after Jesus came and Israel’s exclusive favor was cast off Jehovah opened up the way for Gentiles to be “grafted in” and be given the chance to be part of the bride and uplift mankind out of sin and imperfection. He does not commission us to convert the world but to call out his sheep. He is calling out a people for his name. Not converting the world of mankind. We preach so can find those who will respond and run the race for the mark of the prize of the high calling.
One way we can see this in the scriptures is the Day of Atonement. For 6 days the priests that were inside the tabernacle were being developed for their priestly duties. The camp which represents the world of mankind was not dealt with. On the 7th day there went out into the camp (representing the world of mankind) and blessed them just as the priests will do in the 7th day (millennium).
If Jehovah was working with everyone then this life would be the only test for everyone and would defeat the purpose of the millennium. our reward would be at the end of the age and not the millennium. Why would God test us now and then test us at the end of the millennium? Was this not enough?
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dee2 says:
May 18, 2016 at 12:21 pm
Chris:
“Why would God test us now and then test us at the end of the millennium? Was this not enough?”
– Is it God or Satan who is testing us now? Is it God or Satan who will be testing us at the end of the millennium?
– Will the Bride Class that is being called out right now, and who according to your theology, goes to heaven, also be tested at the end of the millennium?
If not, why not?
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Chris says:
May 18, 2016 at 5:57 pm
God is letting us be tested. But Jesus only taughg second death to his followers. The only unforgivable sin in the bible is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. How can the world sin against what they don’t have? The bible says that there is no forgiveness now or in the AGE TO COME. So obviously people will sin in the age to come.
We believe there I only one calling that Jesus falls us to. That’s heaven. The JWs have shifter the Great Crowd from heaven to earth in 1935. We believe Jesus is calling those to a heavenly hope. We believe that those who do not make the 144,000 (because not everyone wins the race) will fall into two different places: Great Company or Second Death. So no not only 144,000 are in heaven.
Caroline. Read closer. It’s all there. The whole theme of the Bible is ransom and restitution. Not turn or burn.
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Chris says:
May 18, 2016 at 5:59 pm
Clarification: there is
No forgiveness now or in the age to come for blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
That Jesus Calls us to**
Caroline says:
May 18, 2016 at 3:21 pm
@Chris, where in the Bible did you find all of what you were saying? I don’t see any scriptures.
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dee2 says:
May 18, 2016 at 6:52 pm
Chris,
I note that you did not answer the following question, so I am asking it again, if you don’t mind:
Will the Bride Class (same as the 144,000 according to your theology) that is being called out right now, be tested at the end of the millennium?
If not, why not?
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Chris says:
May 18, 2016 at 7:06 pm
Dee. forgive me for not answering all your questions as you seem have to so many.
No they will not be tested again at the end of the millennium. Why? Because they are the overcomeers of the Gospel Age. They are tried true and faithful. And the bible says that second death has no power over them. They have been tried and will receive the crown of life in their resurrection
Rev 20:6
“Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.”
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dee2 says:
May 18, 2016 at 9:34 pm
Chris,
So, according to your theology persons (including homosexuals) who do not pass the Gospel Age test instigated by Satan and allowed by God, will have the opportunity to be tested again at the end of the millennium.
Why test persons a second time – if they didn’t pass the test the first time, what is going to make them pass the test the second time?
*******
“God is letting us be tested.”
Nice to see God and his arch-nemesis, Satan, collaborating and working together. It doesn’t seem that things are so bad between them after all.
Reply
Chris says:
May 19, 2016 at 3:09 am
It’s not a second chance. That’s what people don’t get. Many dont know God or are blinded by the God of this age. They don’t know the truth. Like I’ve said before only those who are going to be kings and priests are being developed. Not the world of mankind. Christendom has this belief that we must accept now or burn in hell. If Jesus comes back to judge guilty or not guilty why would we need the millennium?. These questions can be answered in every other post. Isaiah 26:9 shows that during judgement the woRld will learn RIGHTEOUNESS. I’ve also shown the highway of holiness that people will pass on. They will be unblinded and taught the truth for 1000 years. This is why Satan is let out again at the end of the 1000 years. If it was only good people that make it to the millennium why would God allow them to be deceived l/test twice? Unless it’s manys for toe opportunity while knowing the truth for the first time.
I can’t keep going back and forth. If you’d like I can send you a copy of the The Divine Plan of the Ages.
Reply
dee2 says:
May 19, 2016 at 6:30 am
Chris,
I am already familiar with the information in The Divine Plan of the Ages.
“Many dont know God or are blinded by the God of this age. They don’t know the truth.”
– So, is it that God is allowing Satan to ONLY do selective testing during the Gospel Age, so that Satan ONLY tests those persons who know “the truth” during the Gospel Age?
– What if a person knows “the truth” during the Gospel Age but still remains a homosexual and dies as a homosexual before the millennium starts – will this person be resurrected?
– What if a person knows “the truth” during the Gospel Age but still remains a homosexual and this person is alive at the time the millennium commences – what will happen to such a person?
Reply
Chris says:
May 19, 2016 at 7:37 am
I’m sorry I don’t believe you. If you were familiar with the book all your questions would be answered. I am familiar with the contents of the Koran but have never read it. There is a difference.
All mankind is blind. The bride class is on trial for life. I did not say God is only testing the bride class. I said He is only testing them for life. Satan is still misleading the world. They will miss out on being part of the bride class by being deceived by atheism, evolution, and false religion. So don’t think they are getting off easy. They are missing out on the prize of the high calling. Because, now question for you why would God allow those in the millennium to learn the truth if they are only allowed NOW to learn? see Isaiah 26:9.
There is a difference between knowing the truth and actually laying down your life in consecration to God to the high calling. Ask yourself, why would God allow you to be blind and then punish you for being blind? It makes so sense according to Christendoms theology.
if the whole world was on trial not for life then it would be our fault for not reaching all corners of the earth with the message. Then we have to start inventing “well God would allow them into heaven because they didn’t have an opportunity.” Now this would defeat the whole purpose of Jesus.
Ask yourself why would God call people and punish those who are not called? That’s wrong and its not the God of the Bible.
They are not cooperating. Thats th same argument when people say that Satan is ruling Hell right now. Well why would he punish those who are bad? If he cooperating with Jehovah and punishing the unrepentant. Your argument is moot. He is misleading us especially the bride class so that we go into second death or we lose out on the prize. That’s not what Jehovah wants and that’s what Satan wants. this shows they are not cooperating.
No. If one is consecrated and lays down his life in service to Jehovah then turns around willingly and knowingly goes back into sin then he loses life. This is called sinning against the holy spirit. We have some that say they will be resurrected and judged unworthy or they won’t be. There’s no definite statement on this. Jesus said this when he talked about Gehenna with his followers.
Please read: https://chicagobible.org/nightime-of-sin-to-end-in-the-morning/
Reply
dee2 says:
May 19, 2016 at 9:47 pm
Chris – PART 1:
It has certainly been interesting to discuss the Bible Students’ beliefs versus the JWs’ beliefs regarding homosexuality.
You stated above that the JWs condemn homosexuals but the Bible Students don’t. However, based on your subsequent comments, it is evident that the Bible Students also condemn homosexuals:
– “No gays (practicing) are not part of the Bride class for 1 Cor 6:9-11 says “for this is what some of you were”.
So, homosexuals can’t be a part of the Bride Class, which is being called out today.
_________
– “Men who lie with men will not inherit Gods kingdom. Yet again you assume I’m a JW. We believe that all of mankind (including homosexuals) will be resurrected. Those in the millennium who do the things as shown in 1 Cor 6:9-11 will not inherit the kingdom. Not today.”
So if homosexuals who are resurrected in the future millennium do not conform, they will be put to death:
“We believe that mankind will have atlas 100 years to obey or be cut off………But everyone will have at least 100 years in the millennium to make progress.”
_________
– “No. If one is consecrated and lays down his life in service to Jehovah then turns around willingly and knowingly goes back into sin then he loses life.”
1). So if a person knows “the truth” during the Gospel Age but still remains a homosexual and dies as a homosexual before the millennium starts this person will not be resurrected.
2). And, if a person knows “the truth” during the Gospel Age but still remains a homosexual and this person is alive at the time the millennium commences, this person will not be allowed to live for the entire millennium:
“We believe that mankind will have atlas 100 years to obey or be cut off………But everyone will have at least 100 years in the millennium to make progress.”
________
– “And no not all those who are resurrected resist homosexuality. Remember some will be misled yet again when Satan is let out at the end of the millennial Age.”
Satan misleads persons into becoming homosexuals.
**********
“We believe that all of mankind (including homosexuals) will be resurrected. Those in the millennium who do the things as shown in 1 Cor 6:9-11 will not inherit the kingdom……..the dead will be resurrected on earth. Else wise how can the 144,000 rule over or on the earth?”
When does the earthly resurrection of these persons who are NOT part of the group who will “be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years” (Rev. 20:6) – Bride Class according to your theology – take place?
According to Revelation 20, a resurrection will take place:
– at the BEGINNING of the millennium: of persons who “came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”
– and at the END of the millennium: of “the rest of the dead who did not come to life until the thousand years were ended”.
So, according to the Bible:
– there is no resurrection of any other persons apart from the Bride Class that takes place at the beginning of the millennium
– there is no resurrection of anyone during the millennium
********
Are any members of the Bride Class already in heaven?
********
“No gays (practicing) are not part of the Bride class for 1 Cor 6:9-11 says “for this is what some of you were”.
– What about persons who are homosexuals who were never reached with “the truth” during the Gospel Age, but despite their not knowing “the truth” these person stop practicing homosexuality during the Gospel Age.
Will these persons become members of the Bride Class?
– What about persons who were never homosexuals or who don’t do any of the things stated in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, yet they were never reached with “the truth” during the Gospel Age?
Will they become members of the Bride Class?
Reply
Chris says:
May 19, 2016 at 11:45 pm
No. Whe it says “did not come to life” doesn’t mean “ressurection”. It means being brought into everlasting life condition. Because their life depends on how the acted in the millennium.
Now we only did the Adamic death one time. After that it’s life or SECOND DEATH. Second death is which there is no resurrection for.
Please read the studied books. It’s explains all
Of this.
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dee2 says:
May 19, 2016 at 9:53 pm
Chris – PART 2:
“The bride class is on trial for life. I did not say God is only testing the bride class. I said He is only testing them for life.”
So what is God testing the rest of mankind for during the Gospel Age, if he is not testing them for life like the Bride Class?
*******
“Satan is still misleading the world. They will miss out on being part of the bride class by being deceived by atheism, evolution, and false religion. So don’t think they are getting off easy. They are missing out on the prize of the high calling.”
Why do these persons miss out on being part of the bride class? Why do these persons miss out on the prize of the high calling?
Does this happen because “the truth” did not reach these persons?
*********
“Why would God test us now and then test us at the end of the millennium? Was this not enough?………. God is letting us be tested……… I did not say God is only testing the bride class. I said He is only testing them for life. Satan is still misleading the world.”
I can only conclude that God is collaborating with Satan, his arch-nemesis, if this is the case. Since God is using Satan to do his work for him, then God and Satan are collaborating.
*********
“if the whole world was on trial not for life then it would be our fault for not reaching all corners of the earth with the message……..Ask yourself why would God call people and punish those who are not called?”
– So the only reason why some persons are on trial for life as members of the Bride Class during the Gospel Age, is because they were reached with the message/”the truth”. This therefore means that if you are not a part of the Bride Class it’s just your bad luck that you weren’t reached with the message/”the truth” during the Gospel Age.
*******
“………the concept of Armageddon being a battle between God an man in which God destroys mankind is a JW theology. According to the Bible it is when mankind goes into complete anarchy.”
– Where exactly in the Bible is this stated?
– There are other persons who believe that humanity’s demise could be our own doing but they do not give this potential demise any Biblical significance. For example, physicist Stephen Hawking thinks there are 4 ways in which the world could end, but he doesn’t give this any Biblical significance:http://www.techinsider.io/stephen-hawking-predictions-about-the-end-of-the-world-2016-1
– Does Armageddon have anything to do with the future millennium which the Bible Students anticipate?
– Will anything happen to the world governments when the millennium commences?
– Where will the world governments be during the millennium?
********
“When mankind is awaken from the sleep of death they will for 1000 years walk up the Highway of Holiness and learn God’s ways.”
– Is there some physical process that will take place in our bodies which will make it possible for humans to live for 1000 years?
Reply
dee2 says:
May 19, 2016 at 9:58 pm
Chris – PART 3
“We believe that all of mankind (including homosexuals) will be resurrected.”
“When mankind is awaken from the sleep of death they will for 1000 years walk up the Highway of Holiness and learn God’s ways.”
If all of mankind will be resurrected plus there will be persons who will not die but who will be alive when the millennium commences, and if all these persons will be living for 1000 years without dying, will they all fit on the earth?
How Many People Have Ever Lived On Earth? 108 billion as at mid-2011 according to Population Reference Bureau estimates:http://www.prb.org/Publications/Articles/2002/HowManyPeopleHaveEverLivedonEarth.aspx
The earth’s land area is: 148 326 000 square km (57 268 900 square miles)
Based on these figures, the earth’s population density would be 728 persons per square km (1886 persons per square mile).
How does this compare to the current situation in China?
According tohttp://www.worldometers.info/world-population/china-population/ :
The current population of China is 1,381,588,762 as of Thursday, May 19, 2016, based on the latest United Nations estimates.
The total land area of China is 9,390,784 square km (3,625,800 square miles).
Based on these figures, the current population density of China is 147 persons per square km (381 persons per square miles).
So the population density of a paradise earth, based solely on the number of persons estimated to be resurrected, would be about 5 times that of China. Would this be ecologically sustainable?
– will each person be able to live under his own vine and fig tree?
– will persons be able to continue having children with such a population density, given that there will be no more death?
********
“If Jesus comes back to judge guilty or not guilty why would we need the millennium?”
– What reason(s) is(are) there to believe that there is a millennium which is yet to come?
*********
“You asked about how can the homosexuals die again when the bible says we only die one? This reminds be of a question you asked earlier in which your logic was completely off. You asked how can Hod destroy the world AGAIN when he said that he would never again destroy mankind with a flood? Well who says it has to be with a flood? ”
If God would still carry out a global annihilation using other means apart from a flood then was the covenant between God Noah, and EVERY GENERATION AFTER HIM (Genesis 9:12) and between God and EVERY LIVING CREATURE (Genesis 9:9-10, 16) necessary?
What was the point of instituting such a covenant or why bother to institute such a covenant if God would still carry out a global annihilation using other means apart from a flood?
Suppose Noah was still alive when another global annihilation by God was carried out using a different means apart from a flood, would Noah think that God was still honouring the covenant which God made with him?
What you are claiming is that God made a covenant with Noah
and EVERY GENERATION AFTER HIM (Genesis 9:12) about the MEANS by which the global annihilation was carried out and not about the ANNIHILATION ITSELF. Would Noah have understood that the covenant was about the MEANS by which the global annihilation was carried out and not about the ANNIHILATION ITSELF?
If God would still carry out a global annihilation using other means apart from a flood then it was not necessary for God to have made the covenant with Noah, and EVERY GENERATION AFTER HIM (Genesis 9:12). The covenant was not necessary if God would need to carry out more global annihilations in the future………unless God is not omniscient and all-knowing as the Bible claims and so he made the covenant in error.
Reply
dee2 says:
May 21, 2016 at 12:36 pm
How is it that God is going to once again carry out another global annihilation given that, according to the Bible, God made the following promise to Noah at Genesis 8:21:
“And when the Lord smelled the pleasing odor, the Lord said in his heart, “I will NEVER AGAIN CURSE THE GROUND because of man, for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; NEITHER WILL I EVER AGAIN DESTROY EVERY LIVING CREATURE as I have done.”
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dee2 says:
May 19, 2016 at 10:02 pm
Chris – PART 4
“Mankind only dies the ADAMIC death one time.”
“When we have perfect knowledge and we follow satan at the end of the millennium and we go into the second death then thats it. He will not die a second time.”
So, according to your theology, any resurrected homosexual who does not conform during the millennium or any resurrected person who follows satan at the end of the millennium and does not resist homosexuality will die a second time.
This however ignores that Jesus stated that persons resurrected in the age to come CAN NO LONGER DIE. So how will it be possible for a person resurrected in the age to come to die again?
Luke 20:34-36 (NIV):
“The people of THIS AGE marry and are given in marriage. But those who are considered worthy of taking part in THE AGE TO COME and IN THE RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD will neither marry nor be given in marriage, and they CAN NO LONGER DIE; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.”
(emphasis mine).
_______
According to your theology, we can die:
* an Adamic death for sins committed by Adam
* after being resurrected, a non-Adamic death for sins which we ourselves commit during the future millennium
So if we can die a non-Adamic death for sins which we commit ourselves, why do we have to die an Adamic death for sins which someone else (Adam) committed?
In other words, Adam’s sin did not have to be passed on to his descendants in order for them to die since they can die for their own sins according to your theology.
______
– What is “perfect knowledge”?
– Your comment implies that we do not have “perfect knowledge” now – why don’t we have “perfect knowledge” now?
_______
– Persons who don’t die the Adamic death, but who are alive at the time the anticipated future millennium begins, will live forever if they pass the test at end of millennium. There will therefore be some persons who will never ever die at all.
So some people will never have to die the Adamic death for Adamic sin although according to the Bible, it is appointed for man to die once. This certainly proves that it really wasn’t necessary for people to die for the sins committed by someone else – Adam – after all, since some persons will escape the “wages of sin” which is (Adamic) death (Romans 6:23). It won’t be true that the “wages of sin is death” in their case.
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Chris says:
May 19, 2016 at 11:39 pm
Dee. Read the divine plan of the ages. All these questions are answered for you. I don’t want to answer anymore. I mean come on 4 parts. Read the Studies in the a Scripture. I’m not answering anymore. Have a good day.
Reply
Chris says:
May 19, 2016 at 11:55 pm
As for your never die again. This is Adamic death. Because God would be a liar to call it’s a second death.
Ezekiel 18:20
“The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.”
In the millennium it’s no longer the sin of Adam
That we will die for but our own.
As for
Your population question. Every person that has ever existed can fit shoulder to shoulder in Texas.
There are different resurrections. The bible talks about the “happy are those who are in the first ressurection. For these the second death has no
Power.”
The ressurection is not all at once. “The first will be last and the last will be first.”
Plus I think you should lighten up on the “what ifs”. I don’t do scenarios. I tell my students that all the time. When I said no talking thy says “what if this happens”. We can’t have an endless case of scenarios.
Please read the Studies.
I won’t be back in here for responses anymore.
You asked why do we have to die for sins Adam committed? Ask God that. We know that Adam sin passed onto us.
Reply
dee2 says:
May 20, 2016 at 11:48 am
Chris,
“No. Whe it says “did not come to life” doesn’t mean “ressurection”. It means being brought into everlasting life condition. Because their life depends on how the acted in the millennium.”
So the Bible Students have therefore resorted to an ad hoc definition of “COMING TO LIFE” making it mean something else other than “resurrection” in Revelation 20:5.
The irony is that this ad hoc definition of “COMING TO LIFE” contradicts the use of the same expression in the previous verse in which “COMING TO LIFE” means “resurrection”:
Revelation 20:4 “And they CAME TO LIFE ( = resurrection) and ruled with the Christ for a thousand years……. This is the first resurrection.”
According to the Bible Students’ theology, “COMING TO LIFE” has two different meanings in the same chapter of Revelation:
– it means “resurrection” in Revelation 20:4
– but in the very next verse, Revelation 20:5, it does not mean “resurrection”, it means something else: “it means being brought into everlasting life condition”.
This ad hoc interpretation of “COMING TO LIFE” as “being brought into everlasting life condition” during the millennium is a blatant attempt to avoid the plain meaning of these verses when they are taken at face value.
**********
“As for Your population question. Every person that has ever existed can fit shoulder to shoulder in Texas.”
I thought the idea was that everyone would be living under his own vine and fig tree………not “shoulder to shoulder”?
According to Population Reference Bureau estimates, 108 billion people have lived on earth as at mid-2011 :http://www.prb.org/Publications/Articles/2002/HowManyPeopleHaveEverLivedonEarth.aspx
The land area of TEXAS is: 678,051.4 square km (261,797.12 square miles) according to
ipl dot org/div/stateknow/popchart.html
Based on these figures, the population density of TEXAS would be 159,280 persons per square km (412,533 persons per square mile).
How does this compare to the current situation in China?
According tohttp://www.worldometers.info/world-population/china-population/ :
The current population of China is 1,381,605,913 as of Friday, May 20, 2016, based on the latest United Nations estimates.
The total land area of China is 9,390,784 square km (3,625,800 square miles).
Based on these figures, the current population density of China is 147 persons per square km (381 persons per square mile).
So the population density of the millennium earth using the land area of TEXAS and using the number of persons estimated to be resurrected, would be about 1,083 times that of China……..interesting. Would this be ecologically sustainable?
Reply
dee2 says:
May 21, 2016 at 10:09 am
Chris,
Even if “COMING TO LIFE” should mean something else as you have claimed – it “doesn’t mean “ressurection”. It means being brought into everlasting life condition”;
– there is still nowhere in the Bible which states that there is a resurrection of other persons at the beginning of the millennium apart from those who “came to life and (who) will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years” (Revelation 20:4 – 6).
– there is still nowhere in the Bible which states that there will be a resurrection of persons during the millennium.
Reply
Chris says:
May 25, 2016 at 3:09 pm
Your error is that only 381 people can fit into a square mile. If you read my comment it states that everyone can fit shoulder to shoulder in Texas. Not only 381 per square mile. I said “shoulder to shoulder” Therefore since I am a math teacher I pick to your error out right away. You mentioned “ecologically sustainable”. You do realize it’s out belief that the earth is cursed and things do no grow in the same way they didn’t the garden of Eden. I’m sure in a restored perfect world the earth will yelid a lot more than we have now. But don’t take that as an absolute and ask 50 questions with it that would
Only be assumptions and think because we don’t know that that must mean that we are wrong.
As for your faulty interpretation of Micah 4:4 it doesn’t show that each person will have a certain amount of space for land. Although a taken-out-of-context interpretation would make it seem so. It’s shows him enjoying his own fruitage and hard work and dwelling in peace. .
Micah 4:3b-4
“They will beat their swords into plowsharesAnd their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation,Nor will they learn war anymore. 4 They will sit, each one under his vine and under his fig tree,And no one will make them afraid,For the mouth of Jehovah of armies has spoken.”
This is a discussion of peace. Not of everyone being spread out over and earth that cannot sustain itself. Plus taking my words out of context and saying shoulder to shoulder doesn’t mean that we have to live shoulder to shoulder as portrayed in your comment about under his own fig tree. You assumed that my comment means we will all live together. Not as bright as I thought you were.
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dee2 says:
May 20, 2016 at 11:55 am
Chris,
“Plus I think you should lighten up on the “what ifs”. I don’t do scenarios. I tell my students that all the time. When I said no talking thy says “what if this happens”. We can’t have an endless case of scenarios.”
What you are therefore saying is that persons should just accept without question, what you tell them or what is written in the Bible Students’ publications. The Bible however admonishes that we should “test all things” (1 Thessalonians 5:21), not to just gullibly accept without asking questions.
Chris, it is a simple matter: If you don’t do “what if” questions/scenarios then it simply means that the information provided by the Bible Students is inadequate, it doesn’t mean that the “what if” questions should not be asked. The inadequacy of the information which the Bible Students provide should not stop persons from asking “what if” questions.
If the Bible Students are unable to answer the “what if” questions then a person will therefore have to decide whether he/she will accept what you have told them or what is written in the Bible Students’ publications, given the inadequacies.
*********
“You asked why do we have to die for sins Adam committed? Ask God that. We know that Adam sin passed onto us.”
Yes, I will certainly ask God about that, especially given that you stated:
“In the millennium it’s no longer the sin of Adam That we will die for but our own”
and given that you quoted Ezekiel 18:20 which clearly shows that children do not die for the sins of their parents:
Ezekiel 18:20
“The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.”
If we can die for our own sins and if children do not share the guilt of the parent and vice versa, then it is therefore a very simple matter:
Adam should therefore die for the sins which he committed and his descendants should only die for the sins which they commit, not for the sins which someone else (Adam) committed.
Also, it certainly isn’t justice (divine or otherwise) to condemn not only the criminal to death, but also his/her offspring who have nothing to do with his/her crime – it certainly isn’t justice if the law which governs societies today wasn’t satisfied with the death of a criminal but came after his/her offspring and executed them as well for his/her crime.
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Chris says:
May 20, 2016 at 4:50 pm
I’m going to do what you do so you can see what I mean. I’m going to assume you’re a Christian.
1. “What you are therefore saying is that persons should just accept without question, what you tell them or what is written in the Bible Students’ publications. The Bible however admonishes that we should “test all things” (1 Thessalonians 5:21), not to just gullibly accept without asking questions.”
– Where did I say anything about just accepting publications answers? Yes we test not have someone take us through a million scenarios. Where did I say you should just accept what it written in “publication.” That fact that you said you are familiar with the Divine Plan of the Ages yet asked every question about what its about shows you aren’t honest. How would you feel if i told you i did no homework but asked you for every answer just to make sure?
2. You stated “Ezekiel 18:20
“The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.”
– Where does this say this is now?
-How does a child sin on their own when the bible says we die because of Adam? 1 Corinthian 15:22
-You said a child doesn’t die because of their parents how does this refer to Adam when its talking about a child being under their parent?
-What if the child is caused to sin by their parent?
-What is the parent doesn’t know it’s a sin and their parents make them do something and it’s a sin would they bear the sin of their parent?
Ahhh scenarios? See how it feels?
My response: In the millennial age the circumstances will be ideal. We are now reading about the days of Ezekiel and not the days of Moses. When the law was initially given it was read every seven years. Those in moses day knew this but those in Ezekiels day were ignorant. In the millennial age each person will be dealt with individually. But lets talk about this in there day. In the mosaic law if one was guilt all were guilty. Sometimes God commanded the Israelites to kill every man woman a child of the household. Even though the child may not have done anything. So how in ezekiel period there would not die because of their father sin and vice versa. This is not about dying for sin the agamic death.
You stated “If we can die for our own sins and if children do not share the guilt of the parent and vice versa, then it is therefore a very simple matter:
Adam should therefore die for the sins which he committed and his descendants should only die for the sins which they commit, not for the sins which someone else (Adam) committed.”
– Even though God said we die because of Adam then why should we be punished?
-Doesnt 1 Cor 15:22 completely void you what you stated “his descendants should only die for the sins they committed” when it says “As in Adam all die.”
-Why are we to only die for our sins when the bible explicitly states that adams sin spread to all men because of Adam?
-What if Abel didn’t sin would be have been freed from sin and not died because of his own sin?
– If Abraham was considered justified and righteous then why did he die?
-Would God’s Plan be a failure if Adam and eve didn’t sin?
-If Adam were to die only for his sin only then why did everyone else die after him?
-If Adam freely sinned doesn’t that mean that his descendants didn’t freely sin?
-How do we know many wouldn’t freely sin after Adam and Eve given that they didn’t sin.
See how annoying it is. I can do one question or two but dang 4 Parts of scenarios.
What if you were teaching a class and you said “no talking at all.” and a student says:
” But what if she needs a pencil?”
“But what if she this or that”
“What if the ask me for the date”
“What if someone shoots up the school.”
And you say “We don’t need scenarios.” and they reply “Well if you can’t answer scenarios then you shouldn’t be a teacher.”
Thats a bit extreme but you get the picture.Scenarios can go on FOREVER.
Or how would you feel is someone says they’ve seen Harry Potter and ask you every question about everything thats shown in the movie? You’d be annoyed wouldn’t you.
Thats how I feel when you ask some questions that are addressed in that Divine Plan book.
Reply
Chris says:
May 20, 2016 at 4:54 pm
It’s not about being able to not answer questions but if you go the “why? why? why? why? why? why?” eventually you would have to stop
In christendom they just say “We’ll its a matter of faith.”
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Chris says:
May 25, 2016 at 3:22 pm
“Chris, it is a simple matter: If you don’t do “what if” questions/scenarios then it simply means that the information provided by the Bible Students is inadequate, it doesn’t mean that the “what if” questions should not be asked.”
Not asking the “what if” questions in no way is asking to accept any of the statements without question. No one asked you to accept without asking and no one asked you to no question. What your doing is creating scenarios that are not stated the bible and expecting me to be able to answer them with absolute certainty. Because I may not be able to provide you an answer doesn’t mean other Bible Students can’t. I know some very scholarly bible students. Then you come back with an Scenario you ask are obnoxious. You ask questions like “what will happen to homosexuals who become Christians and turn their backs on God in the millennium”. Google it I’ll wait…. did you find anything in the bible through google that pointed to an answer in the scripture? Or did you know this before? If you knew it wasn’t in there it was a question meant to be obnoxious. True teachers can back it up with the reason. Not let their students ask dumb questions knowing the teacher doesn’t know and assume they are inadequate for not having a solution. But asking questions you know aren’t in the Bible and accusing people they must not be smart or they are in error because it doesn’t back up with your views shows the questions to be obnoxious. Would it be proper to ask you what would everybody be doing in heaven and have them in the Bible doesn’t give a description of this and expecting an answer and then calling you not smart because you can’t answer would you call that fair? To ask this question even though I know it’s not in the Bible and expect an answer really shows that I would be being obnoxious!
The bible says test all things. But asking to be asking knowing good an well there’s. It an answer in no way invalidates my beliefs or assume yours are correct.
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dee2 says:
May 20, 2016 at 8:24 pm
Chris,
The various questions which I have asked you, have been asked because I do have questions about what is written in the Divine Plan of the Ages.
One such question:
Will there be persons alive on the earth at the time when the anticipated future millennium begins?
Reply
dee2 says:
May 23, 2016 at 12:03 pm
Chris,
“-You said a child doesn’t die because of their parents how does this refer to Adam when its talking about a child being under their parent?………”
Didn’t Adam and Eve have children? Aren’t we all descendants of Adam and Eve according to the Bible? Aren’t Adam and Eve our parents?
*********
“-How does a child sin on their own when the bible says we die because of Adam? 1 Corinthian 15:22
– Even though God said we die because of Adam then why should we be punished?
-Doesnt 1 Cor 15:22 completely void you what you stated “his descendants should only die for the sins they committed” when it says “As in Adam all die.”
-Why are we to only die for our sins when the bible explicitly states that adams sin spread to all men because of Adam?
-What if Abel didn’t sin would be have been freed from sin and not died because of his own sin?
– If Abraham was considered justified and righteous then why did he die?
-If Adam were to die only for his sin only then why did everyone else die after him?”
According to the Bible Students’ theology, persons alive at the beginning of the Millennium will simply live on forever. They won’t die the Adamic death, but will live forever if they pass the test at end of millennium (which has nothing to do with Adam). There will therefore be some persons who will never die at all.
So some people will never have to die the Adamic death for Adamic sin although according to the Bible, it is appointed for man to die once. This certainly proves that it really wasn’t necessary, after all, for people to die for the sins committed by someone else – Adam – since for some persons it won’t be true that “As in Adam ALL die” as per 1 Corinthians 15:22. ALL persons won’t die because of Adam, according to the Bible Students’ theology. Some persons will escape “the wages of sin” – Adamic death (Romans 6:23) – and live on forever.
**********
“In the millennium it’s no longer the sin of Adam That we will die for but our own.
-How does a child sin on their own when the bible says we die because of Adam? 1 Corinthian 15:22
-Why are we to only die for our sins when the bible explicitly states that adams sin spread to all men because of Adam?
-If Adam freely sinned doesn’t that mean that his descendants didn’t freely sin?
-How do we know many wouldn’t freely sin after Adam and Eve given that they didn’t sin.”
If we don’t sin on our own then the Adam and Eve story is teaching us that we don’t have free will. The Adam and Eve story is teaching us that persons do bad things because someone else committed a sin, it has nothing to do with their own free will to choose wrongly; it is Adam’s sin that is causing us to choose wrongly, not our own free will and therefore this is why we can’t pay for our own sins but must pay for the sins committed by someone else – Adam.
*********
“- Would God’s Plan be a failure if Adam and eve didn’t sin?”
God needed Adam and Eve to sin in order for his plan to succeed?
**********
“-What if the child is caused to sin by their parent?
-What is the parent doesn’t know it’s a sin and their parents make them do something and it’s a sin would they bear the sin of their parent?”
According to current standards of morality and ethics, a person’s culpability is determined by a court of a law. This is the very point/purpose of a justice system, to deal with various scenarios in determining culpability.
There have been instances in courts of law, where persons have been acquitted of all charges/culpability despite their involvement in a crime.
**********
“My response: In the millennial age the circumstances will be ideal.”
What exactly do you mean by this?
Reply
dee2 says:
May 23, 2016 at 12:06 pm
Chris,
“You stated “Ezekiel 18:20……….Where does this say this is now”………. We are now reading about the days of Ezekiel and not the days of Moses. When the law was initially given it was read every seven years. Those in moses day knew this but those in Ezekiels day were ignorant. In the millennial age each person will be dealt with individually. But lets talk about this in there day. In the mosaic law if one was guilt all were guilty. Sometimes God commanded the Israelites to kill every man woman a child of the household. Even though the child may not have done anything. So how in ezekiel period there would not die because of their father sin and vice versa. This is not about dying for sin the agamic death.”
The book of Ezekiel was written over 2,500 years ago between 597 and 570 BCE. It documents the life of the Jewish exiles in Babylon.
– CHAPTERS 1 to 24:
Gives a narrative account of Ezekiel’s call and his commission as a prophet in about 593 BCE in a community of deported Jewish exiles in Babylon. There are oracles condemning Judah and Israel. Ezekiel preached a message of doom and judgment, he warns that Jerusalem will fall deservedly.
The prophecies are delivered in Babylon, likely between the two deportations – between 597 BCE, when the first deportation occurred and 587, 586 BCE when the fall and final destruction ofJerusalem and its Temple and second deportation occurred.
– CHAPTERS 25 to 32 contain oracles against foreign nations.
– CHAPTERS 33 to 48:
In chapter 33 we learn that a fugitive from Jerusalem brings news of the fall of Jerusalem, so it’s now about 587, 586 BCE. When Ezekiel hears this, he exchanges his message of doom for a message of hope. There are oracles of promise and hope for the future.
– Chapters 40 to 48 are visions: Ezekiel’s visions of the restoration, his vision of a rebuilt Temple and a rebuilt Jerusalem.
So Chapter 18 is addressed to the Jewish exiles in Babylon. The message was likely delivered between 597 BCE, when the first deportation occurred, and 587/586 BCE when the fall and final destruction of Jerusalem and itsTemple and the second deportation occurred. So I do not see how Ezekiel’s emphasis on /assertion of the individual responsibility for sin in chapter 18 does not pertain to the Jews of that period.
According to the Bible Students’ theology, Ezekiel 18:20 only applies to the future millennium. This is what the Bible Students subsequently believe but what did Ezekiel believe about Ezekiel 18:20, which he wrote some 2,500 years ago?
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← News Bulletin: Secret Watchtower documents once again demanded in new US court case.
The Friday Column: Leave no man behind →
Why Watchtower should be ashamed of its new homophobic child propaganda cartoon
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Posted on May 3, 2016
In the new cartoon, Sophia's mum teaches her how to be judgmental and bigoted
In the new cartoon, Sophia’s mum teaches her how to be judgmental and bigoted
It was in the summer 2012 that Jehovah’s Witnesses around the world were first introduced to Caleb and Sophia, the Governing Body’s new animated poster kids.
Their first cartoon adventures, which were distributed in DVDs at conventions and on the organization’s JW.org website, caused outrage even among many non-JWs. Watchtower’s blatant attempts to indoctrinate children using fear and paranoia created a wave of dismay that will have gone largely unnoticed by most ordinary JWs.
Since they first burst on to our screens, Caleb and Sophia have been taught by their troubled parents that Jehovah is pedantic enough to hate certain kinds of plastic action figures, that he wants kids to give their ice cream money to Watchtower, and that failing to pay sufficient attention at kingdom hall meetings can carry the death penalty.
But Watchtower apparently isn’t done with stripping JW kids of all innocence and individuality. Now the Governing Body wants them to challenge any classmates with gay or lesbian parents, and remind them that if mommy and mommy (or daddy and daddy) don’t change their ways they will lose their tickets to paradise.
It’s hard to know where to start in verbalizing one’s revulsion at the proud ignorance and homophobia on open display in this CGI monstrosity, but I will do my best.
Firstly, Sophia’s bewilderingly-orange mother manipulates her daughter with a metaphor that entirely misrepresents both homosexuality and Watchtower’s views regarding it. Sophia is asked to picture a man traveling with a bag, the contents of which trigger the airport security systems because he is carrying a prohibited item.
Homosexuality is explained as being the forbidden item the man must surrender before being allowed to travel on to his desired destination: paradise earth.
The video presents a misleading metaphor that misrepresents both homosexuality and Watchtower's teachings about what awaits homosexuals
The video presents a misleading metaphor that misrepresents both homosexuality and Watchtower’s teachings about what awaits homosexuals
Anybody remotely in tune with reality understands that homosexuality is not a “choice,” as so often portrayed by Christian fundamentalists. Straight people are born straight, and gay people are born gay. Just as it would be outrageous to ask a straight person to start being gay, it is impossible to expect a gay person to live a lie and stop being who they are. And yet this is what fanatics like Watchtower demand of them.
Secondly, the metaphor implies that if the traveler chooses against surrendering the forbidden item, the worst that will happen is that his ticket will be cancelled and he will be forced to browse the duty free before hailing a cab and making his way back to the hotel. But that is not how it works according to Jehovah’s Witness teachings.
If the metaphor were accurately and fully followed through, we would see the traveller being bundled away by security and thrown into a 1940s cattle cart, along with all others deemed undesirable by the Governing Body, before being dispatched to the great extermination camp of Armageddon.
This is not a case of “follow us, or don’t fly,” this is a case of “follow us, or die.”
But this doomsday aspect of Jehovah’s Witness theology is so repugnant to most ordinary people that Watchtower must do its best to obfuscate it wherever possible.
Even most JWs you may encounter on the street, if pressed on the matter, will deny that literally billions of people, including children, are in line for mass slaughter if their hopes and expectations come to fruition. Their continued state of subservience to their religion depends on them not thinking things through to their fullest, most grisly conclusion.
All that deception and mischaracterization aside, arguably the most repugnant and disturbing aspect of this vile cartoon is that it sets out to recruit JW children to impose the organization’s homophobic bigotry on any classmates who happen to have gay or lesbian parents.
When I was growing up as a JW I recall being indoctrinated into believing that homosexuality was to be condemned. But I don’t remember once being told to actively seek out homosexuals, or children of homosexuals, to badger them with my beliefs. All that, apparently, has now changed. Watchtower has thrown its hat in with all the other sickly Christian evangelicals whose crusade is to stamp out homosexuality wherever it surfaces.
If you want to see what the end game is of preaching hate in this way, you need only watch the documentary “God Loves Uganda,” which is currently running on Netflix. It shows how U.S. evangelicals have taken a loathsome message that has zero credibility in their homeland, and cynically flooded Uganda with it – a country whose populace have limited access to education and are therefore easy pickings for those who spew ignorance and bigotry.
And before I am accused of trying to persuade people towards atheism by making this film recommendation, I should point out that two heroes of the film are Reverend Kaoma and Bishop Senyonjo. By the end of the film, I wanted to reach into my screen and hug them both.
Despite being Christians they could plainly see the real danger posed by evangelical homophobic fanaticism, and were doing their best in the face of unspeakable brutality to urge love, respect and tolerance.
Now it seems Watchtower, having already embraced televangelism, are also now quite happy to count themselves among the small-minded homophobic hate-mongers who stain our society. And rather than lead the hateful charge themselves, the likes of Tony Morris and his Governing Body cronies are content to hide behind a newly-formed army of school-age foot-soldiers who will take the heat for them.
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325 Responses to Why Watchtower should be ashamed of its new homophobic child propaganda cartoon
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dee2 says:
May 23, 2016 at 12:32 pm
Chris,
According to http://oyc.yale.edu/religious-studies/rlst-145/lecture-19:
In Chapter 18, Ezekiel rejects/contradicts an important Torah idea – the doctrine of collective responsibility in the operation of divine justice.
He responds to the idea of suffering for the sins of one’s ancestors by declaring that God isn’t going to work that way anymore. God will no longer punish people collectively. Each one will be judged individually. Only the sinner will be punished and that’s a major departure from the contemporary Torah principle of collective or intergenerational punishment which is found most famously in the Second Commandment, the declaration that God punishes children for the sins of their fathers unto the fourth generation (Exodus 34:6,7).
The Book of Chronicles, which is a rewrite of the historical narrative in the Book of Kings, rewrites that material in a manner that never explains a catastrophe on the basis of guilt incurred by someone other than the one experiencing the catastrophe. In other words, it rejects the Torah device of delayed punishment. It changes the narrative account so that no one suffers for a crime committed by someone else. It isn’t the sin of an earlier generation that’s finally visited upon a grandson or a king of a later generation.
So it seems that after 586 BCE, some accepted the idea that the nation was suffering because of the accumulated guilt of previous generations. But for others like Ezekiel, the idea of accumulated guilt and intergenerational punishment seemed to lose some of its explanatory power, perhaps because the destruction and the exile seemed devastatingly severe punishments that didn’t fit the crimes.
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dee2 says:
May 23, 2016 at 12:35 pm
Chris,
“Scenarios can go on FOREVER.”
In the case of your teacher example, the teacher had an answer for all of the scenarios generated: there should be no talking at all. As to whether or not this is the best or most reasonable answer to the scenarios generated, that’s another matter.
In the case of the Bible Students, if you don’t have the answer to the various questions which someone may ask then you should let the person know this, instead of saying you don’t do scenarios. If the person is smart enough, they should realize that your saying that you don’t do scenarios simply means that you don’t know the answer.
As I stated before, given the inadequacy of the information provided by the Bible Students, a person will then have to decide on what basis they will accept what the Bible Students have told them/what is written in the their publications.
Reply
Chris says:
May 25, 2016 at 8:24 am
Dee: lets start from the beginning. Ask me 1 question. Not 25 scenarios. They become endless task. Then to take each response and ask 10 more questions is exhausting. Just ask me one at a time. But for the love of God email me. I HATE typing on here. If it’s not on in email I will not respond.Johnsc11@aol.com
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Chris says:
May 25, 2016 at 8:49 am
I haven’t been on this site for a few days because the comments are getting long. and sweetie it has nothing to do with not knowing the answer. For exmple my ad hoc about not knowing that “coming to life” means Resurrection. It has to do with interpretation because the Greek ford for resurrection is not used here. I know it doesn’t have to be but how else would all the dead at John 5:28,29 who all come out of the graves come to life at the end of the 1000 years if they haven’t been resurrected? Sometimes, yes I do not know what is in as the bible calls it “Ages to come” do you? If not why not? How many ages are there? What happens if someone sins in this age to come? But since they are like Adam and still technically have free will what will God do to them if they sin and they won’t die ever? See how each of these questions are tedious in that you know they are not discussed in the Bible? So why ask them? So you can pull in some history from Ezekiel. Notice how the book of Ezekiel ends in Restoration after sin and death? Take a close look. Its prophetic in its theme. So when I say that it has a millennial application then it fits. You brought in a general history.Great you know more than I do about it. You do know that everything in the Law is a type or picture of a future. So as it is in many stories. The story of Abraham and his experiences are prophetic pictures. When he sent his servant to find a bride for his son to inherit all things this was a picture of God sending the holy spirit to find a bride for his son to inherit all things. Sure we can look at it as general history as you have done. For example, the volume of the Ark of the Covenant (1.5 x 1.5 x 2.5 cubits = 5.625) divided into the volume of the INNER most holy yields (9 x 9 x 10 = 810) = 144 multiplied by the measurements of the outer measurements (10 x 10 x 10 ) yields 144,000. But it we just want to look at the General history of it and what led them to it we would totally miss the spiritual application. What you’ve done it looked at the dry history of it. However, you have neglected to see the spiritual applications.Notice how it goes into the restoration at the end? In a big general picture the whole picture in Ezekiel is the restoration at the end. Do I know everything? Of course not. But the scenarios are so endless that I would like to keep it to a question or two a response. I get over whelmed. Also don’t take this as a view of all Bible Student. We have a brother whom I adore and this man know more than I could ever wish to know. He is a Biblical scholar and knows Greek and Hebrew. I’m not as smart as he is. Also, as for your allegations about believing in what our publications teach you do realize that we don’t use publications like the JW’s do? We read the bible and the Bible alone. Yes we have some book. I personally reject the second volume of the Studies all together.
You must have been a writer because you sure write a lot. I generally don’t have the patience. 🙂
Reply
Chris says:
May 25, 2016 at 8:50 am
I haven’t been on this site for a few days because the comments are getting long. and sweetie it has nothing to do with not knowing the answer. For exmple my ad hoc about not knowing that “coming to life” means Resurrection. It has to do with interpretation because the Greek ford for resurrection is not used here. I know it doesn’t have to be but how else would all the dead at John 5:28,29 who all come out of the graves come to life at the end of the 1000 years if they haven’t been resurrected? Sometimes, yes I do not know what is in as the bible calls it “Ages to come” do you? If not why not? How many ages are there? What happens if someone sins in this age to come? But since they are like Adam and still technically have free will what will God do to them if they sin and they won’t die ever? See how each of these questions are tedious in that you know they are not discussed in the Bible? So why ask them? So you can pull in some history from Ezekiel. Notice how the book of Ezekiel ends in Restoration after sin and death? Take a close look. Its prophetic in its theme. So when I say that it has a millennial application then it fits. You brought in a general history.Great you know more than I do about it. You do know that everything in the Law is a type or picture of a future. So as it is in many stories. The story of Abraham and his experiences are prophetic pictures. When he sent his servant to find a bride for his son to inherit all things this was a picture of God sending the holy spirit to find a bride for his son to inherit all things. Sure we can look at it as general history as you have done. For example, the volume of the Ark of the Covenant (1.5 x 1.5 x 2.5 cubits = 5.625) divided into the volume of the INNER most holy yields (9 x 9 x 10 = 810) = 144 multiplied by the measurements of the outer measurements (10 x 10 x 10 ) yields 144,000. But it we just want to look at the General history of it and what led them to it we would totally miss the spiritual application. What you’ve done it looked at the dry history of it. However, you have neglected to see the spiritual applications.Notice how it goes into the restoration at the end? In a big general picture the whole picture in Ezekiel is the restoration at the end. Do I know everything? Of course not. But the scenarios are so endless that I would like to keep it to a question or two a response. I get over whelmed. Also don’t take this as a view of all Bible Student. We have a brother whom I adore and this man know more than I could ever wish to know. He is a Biblical scholar and knows Greek and Hebrew. I’m not as smart as he is. Also, as for your allegations about believing in what our publications teach you do realize that we don’t use publications like the JW’s do? We read the bible and the Bible alone. Yes we have some book. I personally reject the second volume of the Studies all together.
You must have been a writer because you sure write a lot. I generally don’t have the patience. 🙁
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Chris says:
May 25, 2016 at 9:52 am
Also Dee. What is your theological viewpoint?
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Chris says:
May 25, 2016 at 10:36 am
Hey Dee,
As I’ve said before and have not been following, I won’t be back on the site. Please email me I would like to continue this conversation. 🙂
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← Why Watchtower should be ashamed of its new homophobic child propaganda cartoon
The Friday Column: Why I don’t want to destroy Watchtower →
The Friday Column: Leave no man behind
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Posted on May 6, 2016
tumblr_static_bobposter1I had brothers when I was a Jehovah’s Witness.
They were not related to me. We shared no blood. Neither did I use this term in the arbitrary “spiritual” sense, granting brotherhood simply because someone shared my religious beliefs irrespective of the content of character or the quality of their friendship.
No, they were not physical brothers, nor brothers in faith. Yet they were my brothers in every way that truly mattered.
I grew up with them. From the explosion of discovery and imagination and growth that was childhood, to the energetic teenage and early twenties where life and energy seemed infinite and glittering with potential, to the growing maturity and stability of adulthood, we shared each others triumphs, felt each others pain. We adventured across the world together, built memories that will echo inside me forever. We had each other’s backs, and we’d take a bullet for each other if we had to.
Yet we postponed our lives.
Some of us put off getting married. Sure, there were lots of great girls in the congregations, but there would be time for that later. Right now, the faith needed our time and energy. So we lived single and alone, not knowing things like the fundamental joy of sleepily holding close the person you love in bed on a lazy Sunday morning.
Some of us put off doing what we loved, delayed becoming who we wanted to become. I knew musicians, artists, scientists, lawyers, activists and writers, none of whom were doing what they loved. Their talents lay slack, fallow, as they cleaned windows, and worked mundane low-pay jobs. In the New System, we thought, we can be what we truly are. For now, we can just put what we are on hold, and become something else, something lesser. Just for a little while. Just until the New World.
Some of us put off having children. Not in this system. Not in all this chaos. After Armageddon, when the children can grow up safe in a better world. One day we would be the parents they so desperately wanted to be, but not now. Not now.
I used to think this way.
Then I was set free.
Freedom to feel the ticking clock
set-free1Against a background of increasing cognitive dissonance and disquiet about what I was seeing and hearing from he organisation that ruled my life, I was finally given the information I need to make an informed choice about allegiance to the religion I had been born into.
This information came not from Watchtower publications, nor from “apostates” screaming abuse in my face. It came from JWfacts.com. JWsurvey.org. Google. Youtube. Raymond Franz. All of these online resources provided the counterpoints to the propaganda I’d been fed since birth.
For the first time in my life, I was able to weigh up the facts, and ask hard questions of my religion. For the first time in my life, I saw how dismally the Watchtower faith responded to the challenge.
And so, like so many others who finally see behind the curtain of the high control religion we were blindly born into, I chose to leave.
Shedding doctrine and belief was easier for me than many others have found. On some level, I think I’d always rejected most of the Watchtower’s more ludicrous teachings and harmful practices. The one exception to this was giving up my idea of eternal life on a paradise earth. This loss was bitterly painful, but the resulting energy that this loss brought to my life was spectacular.
Now that I know my life is finite, I have finally begun to live it with an energy and enthusiasm that my JW self never could have conceived. The seconds tick away, and I know that life has more to see and do than I can ever achieve.
No matter how hard I try, I know now that I will die with many items on my “to-do” list unfulfilled.
This knowledge has not crippled me: it has set me free to focus on what truly fulfils me. It has empowered me to cast away the dawdling, casual wastes of time I indulged in when I felt life was infinite. The things I was putting on hold are now the core of my life, and I have lived more since I left the cult than I ever did during my imprisonment.
Yet I left my brothers behind.
Brothers in chains
1226928328176I know the potential that is chained and suppressed in the brothers I left behind.
They are musicians and artists so talented and bursting with potential it would make you weep. They are scientists and philosophers who could contribute vastly to the human condition, saving lives and minds, who instead clean windows because they are waiting for a paradise that will never come. They are wonderful parents who will never have children because they are using their time to serve a lie for a phantom reward.
Time is bleeding them, and they do not even know it. Every year that goes by is another year of wasted opportunities, where choices narrow and options shrink. I cannot bare the thought that the brothers I love will look back one day, with fading eyes and struggling breath, on a life of wasted potential and disappointment, and wish that they could have gotten out of the cult whilst there was still time to live.
I yearn to give them the same chance I had: to obtain all of the information they have previously been denied, and make an informed choice.
Yet this is hard to do.
If I were to attempt to discuss this directly with them, I know they would simply refuse to engage, and that any lingering threads of friendship still existing between us would be severed. The cult that imprisons them has driven its hooks in deep, and any rising impulse to directly engage with me on this subject would be dragged back down on a razor-blade leash.
Yet I remember my own path. Growing evermore disquieted by increasingly extreme and illogical Watchtower teachings. Reaching out in secret to online activists. JWfacts.com. JWsurvey.org. Google. Youtube. Raymond Franz. Weighing the facts they presented against Watchtower’s claims.
And finally becoming free.
That is a path my brothers can walk. It is a path I am increasingly sure many of them will. The only question is; will they do it whilst there is still time to live a real life?
So this is why I do what I do.
To help pile legal and media pressure on Watchtower, forcing it to make increasingly extreme and damaging mistakes in public that reveal its deceitful and harmful core.
To raise public awareness of those mistakes, to make them so unavoidable and exposed that my brothers cannot help but become aware of them, rusting the chains and straining the leash that the cult has placed around their minds.
To help grow the online resources available to my brothers so that when they do make their choice to reach out for the facts, in secret and trembling from fear, they have every possible chance of choosing to free themselves from their chains as soon as possible and spend whatever time they have left genuinely living, rather than being told how to live.
I seek not to drag my brothers away from their faith against their will. If they choose to remain, so be it, but let it be an informed choice.
I seek no followers. Follow no man. Question everything, then follow only your own conscience and the conclusions you draw through your own powers of reason and critical thinking. Understand that truth fears no enquiry, but that falsehood is terrified of questioning.
Choose your life. Never allow another to choose it for you. Carve out your own destiny from the time you have with your own two hands. My Brothers deserve this chance just as much as I.
Leave no man behind
Tmaxresdefaulthere is a moment in the war film Black Hawk Down that captures with simple elegance why I feel compelled to do what I do in trying to hold Watchtower to account.
In the scene I refer to, a soldier (played by actor Eric Bana) is given an opportunity to stand down from the harrowing battle and recover in the safety of his base of operations. He refuses, and instead goes back into the danger of the war-zone to try and rescue his trapped fellow soldiers. When challenged on the apparent insanity of this act, he replies.
When I go home, and people ask me, “Hey Hoot, why do you do it, man? Why? You some kind of war junkie?” I won’t say a goddamn word. Why? They won’t understand. They won’t understand why we do it.
They won’t understand it’s about the men next to you… and that’s it.
That’s all it is.
Leave no man behind.
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← Why Watchtower should be ashamed of its new homophobic child propaganda cartoon
The Friday Column: Why I don’t want to destroy Watchtower →
114 Responses to The Friday Column: Leave no man behind
Newer Comments →
Bill Thinker says:
May 6, 2016 at 7:18 am
Thank you for your thought-provoking article. We all have the responsibility to “leave no man behind”.
Reply
Ren says:
May 6, 2016 at 7:34 am
Hello Covert Fade
I really appreciate this article and it resonates with me profoundly. Do I understand from the last bit of text that you may be going back in? I ask because I have often thought about it myself. I have a daughter and two grandchildren still in. I haven’t seen them in two years. The only way I could talk with her is if I was “back in,” and I often wonder if I were there with her, in the trenches so to speak, if I could help her out, expose her to what I know, passively of course. The thought is beyond overwhelming, and I’m not sure it would even work, but if there’s a chance . . .
Reply
Covert Fade says:
May 6, 2016 at 9:27 am
Hey there.
I don’t think I’d be able to go back in, to be honest. I simply don’t have the kind of willpower that would be required to play along and pretend to believe in things I despise. I’m in awe of those who are able to stay in for the sake of family and friends, but they have a gift of willpower I that I don’t have.
Reply
chuck says:
May 6, 2016 at 8:00 am
that religion cost me the woman I love,
even tho, I didn’t get her,almost 50 years later.
I still love her, still as strong as all those years ago,
maybe some day, the big guy in the sky will send her to me
Reply
John ship says:
May 7, 2016 at 10:33 am
Same for me she was salvation army id just started study with jws.it was the blood issue
.she could not agree..i now have friended her on facbook.we both70 now…if it wasent for WT what might have been …thats life.
Reply
Jeffreycanning says:
May 6, 2016 at 8:05 am
Just now I was thinking back to when they threw me out, Coral and Mary drove round the corner almost crashed looking sideways so as not to have to make eye contact with me… They were on their way to Toorak to choose the mansions they were shortly to inherit… (Around 1974). Nothing to do with the great article you wrote, thought just popped into my head.
Reply
Anonymous says:
May 6, 2016 at 8:16 am
This is what I am dealing with and I appreciate you bringing it up. My brothers are people who have been there for me in ways that most wouldn’t even consider bothering themselves about. When people tell me dismissively “oh, these people aren’t your friends because they’ll leave you in the end, you should move on from them”; its insulting because it is simply not that simple or neatly-packaged as “they don’t really care and that’s that”. Yes, they are plugged in, but we care for each other because we understand each other’s true selves. Not many people you meet, really understand you, even if they care about you. If this something that we eventually have to walk away from, we will all be fighting it, and it will be the loss of a lifetime.
Reply
Brother from Austria says:
May 6, 2016 at 8:59 am
Thank you!
Reply
Big B says:
May 6, 2016 at 9:05 am
Covert Fade;
A wonderful, thought provoking piece. Truthful as well as poignant; well done.
Verily, this is a battle; a battle being fought worldwide for the hearts and souls of close to 8 million slaves held in bondage to a soul-sucking cult. “Yes”, they say, “serve Jehovah (the Watchtower) now. Wait for the real life to come in the New System.” The catch is after 100 years of false predictions and promises it hasn’t come and the New System is nowhere in sight. Maybe by the year 2033 A.D. after 2,000 years since the death and supposed Resurrection of Jesus, maybe then….maybe.
Poor deluded fools, blinded by FOG (Fear, Obligation and Guilt). They should not be hated but pitied. For at one time we were just like them but we finally were helped to break free. “Free at Last, Free at Last, thank God Almighty we’re Free at Last!” MLK,Jr.
Reply
Michel says:
May 6, 2016 at 9:27 am
Great column. Thank you!
Reply
MARS says:
May 6, 2016 at 9:30 am
I grew up during 1973 -1984 era . My old KH congregation was run by an old guard of brothers who were related to each other. They dominated every congregation that used the hall. The fact that some of us were told to put off marrige came from old men who were married themselves. My congo we had few girls to the ratio of boys . Girls and boys never socialized, or were seen talking to each other. We were all watched by these old men in tight pants . If a girl found a boy friend out side of the hall , shed be called in a JC meeting quickly if word got out. The fear mongering 80s was filled with doom and gloom talks . Most of all talks about Demons to frightened us into submission. Those were my memories.
Reply
Sval says:
May 6, 2016 at 6:12 pm
I grew up in the org around the same time. I remember my mother reading my younger brother and I experiences out of the yearbook about the horrible things the brothers were going through in Malawi because the society wouldn’t let then buy a political card. We were told that we would eventually have to face persecution to prove our loyalty. I was a child. I was terrified all the time for fear the authorities would raid our house and take me off to a concentration camp. I can’t tell you how I long to get my childhood back and be raised normally. That can’t happen so I just concentrate on my like now and the future that lies ahead without the influences of this awful organization.
Reply
if only says:
May 6, 2016 at 10:29 am
This has made me cry. So much time wasted. Yet there were many happy times, good times, fun times. But because of this organization I can no longer share them with my old friends. I wonder sometimes with my old friends when they are reminiscing, if they do say ”Do you remember when ******** did this or do you remember when ********* did that.” I hope they laugh at the memory, and not think bad thoughts about my choice to leave. I hope the ones that knew me well, and knew my dedication will one day ask me why I don’t return, and genuinely listen, and most of all hear my reply. You see I didn’t leave them behind either. But behind is where they are.
Reply
Fanned Fret says:
May 6, 2016 at 10:44 am
Decisions are the hardest thing to make especially when it is a choice between where you should be and where you WANT to be. It’s never too late to make the right choice.
Reply
ruthlee says:
May 6, 2016 at 11:40 am
Such a beautiful article, such poignant words. They made me feel quite tearful but not sad. It is like saying goodbye to that wicked lover who cheated and cheated and couldn’t stop themselves despite protestations of true love. The first time our lover org cheated on us we were blissfully unaware and when it dawned, boy did we hurt. Sorry my analogy is a bit off from MrC’s ie war and true brothers in arms.It is true some will have great loss when they leave the org for good but some of us never really fitted so we won’t be mourned or grieved over and that hurts on a different level because our opportunities of youth are long gone and we leave no lasting contribution to this life and we won’t be missed by even pseudo friends. So enough of this maudlin stuff ive got a life to live I’m off to see a rock band tonight and gonna rock on cheers Ruthlee.
Reply
Roman Castañeda says:
May 6, 2016 at 12:32 pm
Very powerful article here! This is truth at its simplest form. Great job Covert Fade!
Reply
Sharon Christensen says:
May 6, 2016 at 1:15 pm
I agree with all comments…wonderful article! Brought me to tears to…sad tears…but also happy freedom tears…tears of heartache, for all who have suffered and cont to suffer sooo much loss and sadness from such a horrible orgy, who falsely claims God’s backing. It is not easy to turn and go from family and friends, and even worse, if these are ripped from you forcefully, by heartless men,who dictate how one must feel and act. Tears of pride for those, who like yourself feel the need to…not leave a brother behind, and keep trying to get this evil and corrupt orgy to answer and suffer like they make others do…May there be a God of Justice in the end, and may He make them suffer as they have made and cont to make so many to suffer. Thanx soooo very much Covert, much” Brotherly Love.”… Keep up the good work!
Reply
Rowland Nelken says:
May 6, 2016 at 1:50 pm
Brilliant piece of writing! And encouraging in the most practical way. Mega exposure of JW cruelty and stupidity on the internet and other media is clearly having its effect.
A uniformly ghastly public image will make JWdom unsaleable. How many folk today would sing the praises of Hitler or Stalin? Back in the 1930s these deranged monsters had plenty of fans amongst folks who were not essentially gullible or simple minded; some of them, like Henry Williamson, a Hitler admirer, and George Bernard Shaw, a cheerleader for Stalin, were quite brilliant.
Even us oldies might yet live to see the collapse of the Watchtower.
Reply
Average Joe says:
May 6, 2016 at 2:48 pm
Lovely article mate. Still taking it all in. Thanks for sharing your thoughts with us.
Reply
Man from the lions pit says:
May 6, 2016 at 2:57 pm
Thanks CF!
Emotional ,honest and touching article with relevant analogy.However I have to say that I’m sadden that I did lost another brother in faith.The scarfs this org. leave are lasting,deep and painful.In every case where the affected one lost completely the hope and faith in better world “paradise” I do feel like I left brother behind ,I lost a brother.
Best wishes my bro & big hugs on your new journey!
Reply
1914 ha ha ha says:
May 6, 2016 at 3:35 pm
i feel so sorry for the older ones still caught in this cult, watching the flip flops, money grabs, overlapping bs. IE my mum and dad.
Reply
Twmack says:
May 6, 2016 at 5:24 pm
Great article CF got me reminiscing about my own
journey. I did the window cleaning stint 17 years,
always a struggle to make a living so much bad
weather in England.
I left a good job in engineering because I allowed
myself to be persuaded that working with worldly
people was a drain on ones spirituality and that they
were basically bad inside.
Nothing could be further from the truth. I worked
with some splendid men, men who were happy to pass
on valuable skills to me a younger man, no thought of
jealousy that I could become better than them and take
their job. There was some barrack room language and
good natured ribbing, but nothing evil or Satanic.
Started studying in 58, and like every other JW I felt
let down when after 8 years of intensive hype 1975
fizzled out like a damp squib. Many disappointed
people left. At a National Assembly shortly afterwards
one speaker referred to these ones. He said, let them go
we don’t want them, they were just opportunists.
I persevered with the org until 1982, when after the
witch hunt at headquarters they started to really turn the
screw. If we had even private thoughts that did not align
with the org, we were proud, independent, rebellious ,
just like Satan. That was the last straw for me
I’ve been out 34 years, In that time along with my wife I
qualified as a professional ballroom dancer and teacher,
It was something I was always interested in but shelved it
for the more urgent kingdom work not to mention
disapproving comments. Overjoyed that I woke up with
a good few years ahead of me.
Y life of uncertain span. Please. don’t waste it on a
proven failure, a mirage.
Reply
Holly Chu says:
May 6, 2016 at 8:41 pm
Lovely and so accurately presented comment. Exactly consistent with my general and personal experience with Watchtower. And I so love your inclusion of the Org’s favorite phrase “urgent work”
Reply
Velta Maes says:
May 7, 2016 at 4:26 pm
twmack, Looks like you left about the same time we did. We had been witnesses for over 45 years. Got married, against the advice of the Society and had 4 children. Although we did not sacrifice our life for the WT, we truly believed they had the truth until we started reading just the Bible without the literature and found out we could ask for Holy Spirit. We were out in a year. We left in 1983 and were disfellowshipped for “apostasy”. We left family and friends there. I am so glad that you and your wife got out and were able to follow your dreams with the gifts that God gave you. The true God gives us dreams and gifts to follow. He is not the “Jehovah” of the Watchtower who steals our desires and substitutes false hopes. God bless you and keep you in His Will! Hugs, Gramma Velta
Reply
Frederick says:
May 6, 2016 at 5:33 pm
Interesting article, my best friend is still indoctrinated. The last time I saw him I passively raised some questions but it didn’t really seem to be sinking in. I remember feeling so sad when we parted ways, the guy is in his 30’s and he’s throwing his life away. Its such a fine line in trying to awaken someone. I faded in my early 20’s, I can’t imagine how terrible I’d feel if I threw away my adulthood. I just hope my childhood friend can start connecting the dots
Reply
Twmack says:
May 6, 2016 at 5:34 pm
One life of uncertain span was the intended was the
Intended sentence.
Reply
Elmer Groom says:
May 6, 2016 at 7:52 pm
After I left I found strength in in this song….https://youtu.be/VzGAYNKDyIU
Reply
Winston Smith says:
May 6, 2016 at 8:00 pm
Nice article; a thought provoking message. When I finally left I lost all my jw friends. Fortunately, as I was fading, I came upon several non-jw friends who I found I could count on (truly discovering people like this outside of “God’s Organization” helped me realize that not all worldly people were evil as I had been raised to believe). Upon leaving, however, I was also able to reconnect with old friends who had left before me. We now had an even stronger bond than before.
I don’t miss the old friendships at all. I think it’s because I now know they were conditional friendships, built on something that wasn’t real.
WS
Reply
Darlene says:
May 6, 2016 at 9:19 pm
I think you speak for so many… The thought of the time I’ve lost truly living, believing in this cult, still angers me. However, I am free now from the brainwash!!! Hallelujah!!!
Reply
vivian says:
May 6, 2016 at 9:49 pm
I dont understand the people watching the broadcasts, watching the gb dudes and how average and really unusual they come across, awkward and non emotional and they continue to make these peoples delusions their own delusions. I think about all the stuff Jesus would be working on and doing if he were on Earth compared to the crap they are producing. For me, the best tactic is to give a quick sincere bold statement then back off. It will grow in their minds if its honest and true.
Reply
Freed Mason says:
May 7, 2016 at 1:35 am
Great article, thank you so much Convert Fade for the time and effort that you and your fellow team members have put in to this and other articles.
I have a feeling that we have only seen the tip of the iceberg in terms of our former brothers and sisters who have woken up to what is really going on in the organisation. Social engineering never worked in the past and all indications are that it will not work in the future, just look at what happened to Hitler, Stalin, Apartheid South Africa, Affirmative Action and countless other failed social experiments. Sorry to say to our brothers and sisters left behind – the WBTS experiment has failed as well.
For those that feel leaving this prison is not worth the effort and it would be better to leave things as is – the comforting fact is that it is never too late to change your life or world view. How much better to focus your mind and energy on positive living and working on those things that give you a spark and love for life as mentioned in this article.
My 81 year old mom still reads her bible every day and is still a member, she has always had the courage to speak out against abusive elders, shunning, hypocrisy of taking blood fractions, discouraged higher education, etc and I love her for it, she has however become conditioned over decades that this is the best that life gets. I feel very sad that she still has this daily fight at her age and has lived most of her life on pause – never pursuing her dreams.
Please don’t be another victim of this experiment.
Reply
Sarah says:
May 7, 2016 at 3:12 am
Why give up on eternal life? If WT is unfaithful by serving up their own ideas then the organization won’t survive. But there are many decent people who do not steal, lie or murder. The prophet Elijah once thought he was the only one in Israel faithful to God, but it turns out God knew of 7,000 faithful ones.
Living with death in view gives you a sort of anxiety which makes it hard to deal with periods of boredom or having to deal with situations you don’t want to be in. It could also make us selfish – not wanting to give time to others we could use for ourselves – not that I’m saying this is the case.
Just a thought.
Reply
Winston Smith says:
May 7, 2016 at 4:32 am
Sarah,
Not intending to open up a philosophical debate, but when we look at life on this planet, everything is finite. All things have a set time and then they are gone. This includes humans. It even appears that our sun and all the planets in our solar system may cease to exist one day.
This knowledge doesn’t cause me any anxiety. I live each day so as to make it the best it can be. If I find myself in an unpleasant situation, I take steps to change the situation or find ways to make it work for me. And I am never bored.
Dreaming that at some point there will be some magical change or that at some point in the future we will get a second chance at life is like taking a placebo. It may make us think we feel better, but it does not change reality. It may even do harm if it causes us to stop trying to be the very best in life, as it has done with so many JWs.
When we die, we may go to some wonderful place of bliss, heaven if you will, but no one can say for sure as none have ever returned from such a place. And some day a divine being may step in and fix all our problems. We cannot totally rule it out. However, based on experience it won’t be any time soon. Thus we need to take responsibility for our own lives and do all that we can to leave this planet a better place once we are gone.
That’s my thought on it.
WS
Reply
dee2 says:
May 7, 2016 at 7:07 am
“Living with death in view………could also make us selfish – not wanting to give time to others we could use for ourselves – not that I’m saying this is the case.”
But is it realistic to believe that you are going to live forever? Is it true that you are going to live forever?
Reply
dee2 says:
May 7, 2016 at 3:29 pm
Sarah,
“Why give up on eternal life?”
Isn’t it also selfish if one needs to have the promise of the reward of eternal life in order to be able “to give time to others we could use for ourselves”?
It seems to me that the real test of unselfishness is if one doesn’t have the promise of the reward of eternal life yet you are able “to give time to others we could use for ourselves”.
“Living with death in view gives you a sort of anxiety which makes it hard to deal with periods of boredom or having to deal with situations you don’t want to be in.”
The promise of the reward of eternal life can perhaps help in these situations but what if eternal life is not real, what if it is just a phantom reward?
Reply
Markie says:
May 7, 2016 at 4:50 am
The problem must JWs have is that they put their faith in men. That is the governing body, elders etc…. The bible tells ua not to put our faith in men. I did what I felt was right for me. I got an education. My kids all do. I just tell them to never mention it at the KH. It’s worked pretty well. One is in law school and another is getting a master’s and no one at the hall knows.
I would never listen to those stupid tapes, kingdom melodies etc. Years ago I had a led Zeppelin cassette on in the car and my wife changed it and put in a kingdom melody. She asked me if it was bothering me and I said it was and threw it out the window were it belonged. Never listened to one since.
My point is do what you want. Pursue what you want. Don’t let anyone tell you what is right for you. Never go to an elder, once they drive out of the kingdom hall parking their only place where they get some sort of valadation in life goes away. Truly sad.
The very fact that they sold Brooklyn and used all those people’s time to move to Warwick tells you to live your life to the fullest. Take care of yourself. They are taking care of themselves with other people’s money.
Reply
Caroline says:
May 7, 2016 at 7:03 am
I was baptized in 1966 at the age of 19. I wasn’t a born-in. I came in after I left home. I fell in love with a born-in and we got married. Since he was a born-in and I wasn’t, his mother was always suspicious of me but I really loved him and I thought it would be forever. I thought we would never get old and die because that is what the Society taught and I believed it.
He died two months ago after a year long battle in pain, fighting cancer and instead of looking back at fond memories, all I have is painful memories of both of our lives wasted.
I expected him to be perfect because the Society makes it look like if you marry a JW, that they will be the perfect husband and father. He expected me to be perfect as well because the Society makes people think that jw women are the perfect wife and mother. We went through our 49 years of marriage always being disappointed in each other.
Most of the time we got along okay but three years ago, I saw that he was doing porn on the internet and I turned him into the elders and he got publicly reproved. I thought he was sinning against Jehovah and so Jehovah was withholding his holy spirit from the congregation and I actually wanted him disfellowshipped but instead they “only” publicly reproved him and then shortly afterwards, they told him that if he went in service more and attended more meetings that he’d be able to answer again at the meetings and even that made me angry.
That was so upsetting to me that I went online for support and that’s when I came across jwsurvey and jwfacts etc. and Ray Franz’s books and I actually was glad that what happened to my husband was the thing that sent me searching and I found out that the Society is not and never has been appointed by Jehovah and Jehovah’s spirit was never on the organization in the first place and the elders had no business being in my husband’s and my business.
I told my husband that if I had it to do over again that I would never have involved the elders and reading Ray Franz’s books is why I would never have done that to him but it was too late and I do believe the public humiliation of being publicly reproved led to him being so depressed that he got cancer and I have to live with that for the rest of my life now.
My husband didn’t agree with me about Ray Franz but at least I tried to make him feel better, even though, right up until he died, he thought that it really was the Society was the “truth” and he died with the hope of being resurrected on a paradise earth.
When I knew he was going to die, I shut up about what I had learned about the “truth” because at least he had that to keep his mind off of being dead forever and I didn’t want to take that away from him then.
The point of my story is that the Society has never been appointed by God and no matter what they say, they don’t know any more about the Bible or life than any one of us. They are just egomaniacs who think they know it all and Witnesses (me included) believed that they were being talked to by God. They have no authority over us and they never did.
Please don’t get involved in that religion. It will ruin your life, your children’s life, your parent’s life, your husband’s life or your wife’s life, your grandparents life and anybody who works with you. It will ruin your personality and make you an egomaniac too, thinking that only you have a good relationship with God and you don’t. It’s all in Witnesses’ minds. They are all being led along like a bull with a ring in it’s nose and don’t even know it. They don’t know they are wasting such a precious thing called life.
It’s so sad.
Reply
Patrika says:
May 7, 2016 at 7:57 am
So sorry Caroline.
Reply
dee2 says:
May 7, 2016 at 8:37 am
Hi Caroline,
Sorry to hear about the death of your husband. Death, though a reality of this life is never pleasant to deal with.
Hope you will be able to find support during your time of grief as you say goodbye to what was, and get ready for that which is yet to come.
I have always enjoyed your comments in this forum.
Best regards.
Reply
Markie says:
May 7, 2016 at 8:43 am
I have always said, if you want to make your problem worse, go to the elders. I am sure the brothers on his committee all gazed at Internet porn themselves.
Reply
Winston Smith says:
May 7, 2016 at 9:48 am
My sincerest condolences on the loss of your husband, Caroline. Don’t blame yourself for his depression and subsequent cancer. His depression was a result of the egomaniacs in the Watchtower organization and their litany of rules and regulations.
And don’t feel that your life was wasted because of the JW influence. Sure, they had a harmful influence, but they never had total control over you. That you eventually woke up once you had the resources available to you is a key indicator of this. And I am sure if you look back with an honest assessment of your life you will see both triumphs and disappointments. That’s true for everyone whether they were in this cult or not.
When you have lost someone so close to you for so long, it’s hard to see that your life isn’t over. You still have a lot of potential for the future, and although it might be hard to see right now, there is a bright future ahead of you. When you are ready it will be waiting for you.
WS
Reply
Freed Mason says:
May 7, 2016 at 10:43 am
Sorry Caroline, you are a loving and caring person, please don’t blame yourself, you can be forced to do very irrational things when your mind is being played with, you have had the courage and strength to realize this, all the best to you for your future!
Reply
Tara says:
May 7, 2016 at 1:42 pm
Caroline I am so sorry to hear your husband has died. My thoughts and love are with you. xxx
Reply
Erik says:
May 7, 2016 at 5:57 pm
Hard to agree that the depression caused his cancer! Remember- “Time and unforeseen occurrence befall us all”!!!
Reply
Grace says:
May 8, 2016 at 5:17 pm
Dear Caroline,
Thank you for opening your heart up to us. We must have woken up around the same time. I have known you back when you were “Anonymous” & always looked forward to your comments. I feel like we’re friends. I had been wondering lately where you have been & now I know.
Please don’t blame yourself as everyone has said. I have spent the last 20 years battling that myself for my daughter.
Love
Grace.
Reply
Caroline says:
May 8, 2016 at 6:38 pm
Hi Grace. Thank you too so much for your kind comment. Being all alone now after all those years is going to take me time and I do feel as if I have “family” here with you and so many others that come here and comment and it helps a lot.
Reply
Tara says:
May 7, 2016 at 7:04 am
I sat with my granddaughter this weekend and she asked me why I no longer go to the hall. I don’t often see her as she lives a long way a way with her mother. My ex daughter in law, who’s family are all in JW’s. He Uncle is an elder in my hall. I could have told my granddaughter all sorts of things but in the end I asked her some questions. I found out she had no idea that there was a hierarchy within the WT. She didn’t really understand who the CO was let alone there was a GB. I I asked her ‘if someone does something really, really naughty what should you do?’ She said go to the Police. At that point I was able to tell her, in a way a 7 year old could understand, that the GB, even when they knew something very naughty was going on, didn’t tell the Police. She saw straight away that, that was wrong. “The police are there to help us Grandma! How can they stop bad things happening if we don’t tell them?’ Out of the mouths of babes eh.
She asked about the fires in Alberta…. we are in Canada. She said that in the Paradise there would be no more fires… I think it was then that I started to sob inside. Yes, she is slowly being indoctrinated. I asked her if she understood Baptism. ‘No, not really’. So I said to her that it is something that I want her to promise me she won’t do until she is a grown up and until she has spoken to other people and not just JW’s. I asked her to ask questions of her own. Hopefully, she will see that her non witness family do fun stuff with other people who are not JW’s. That just because she is told it is bad and evil to ‘celebrate’ as she puts it, we are not bad people. She is the only one behind… I will not leave her there. I will hang on till the bitter end to bring her out. If I fail, then I can but only say ‘I tried’.
Reply
John ship says:
May 7, 2016 at 10:40 am
I brought up my two sons in the org .one baptised one not i made them wait till 16 before they decided ..ive got grandchildren in the jws .i worry they will be pushed into baptism…im out mentaly trying to fade as im hanging in for family. But its becoming harder and harder to sit thru the nonsense that is now being pumped out at especialy the mid week meeting .its a struggle
Reply
Winston Smith says:
May 7, 2016 at 11:35 am
John ship
I can relate to your feelings. I remember just trying to make it through the meetings and keep quiet about things I knew were just total BS. Eventually something has got to give. For me I just slowly stopped going until I was totally gone. It’s hard when you have family. But once you’ve woken up, it’s just too hard to keep listening to the rhetoric. I haven’t been to a meeting (other than a couple memorials that I gave in and went to in order to appease family) for almost 3 years and I am happier for it. When I was first fading, I confided in an old friend who had faded years before. She told me “at some point, you will wake up on a Sunday morning and realize you have no where you have to go, just your whole day to yourself; It will be great.” I am finally there and you know what? My friend was right.
WS
Reply
Twmack says:
May 7, 2016 at 12:06 pm
Caroline, Your comments have always been an
inspiration to me and I’m sure to many others.
I can tell you are a strong intelligent woman who is
more than capable of resolving any issues in your
life without any help from me.
What I can say though, is that we all screw up,
sometimes badly and it’s too painful to keep
scourging ourselves by replaying these things
over and over in the mind. I’m trying not to do it
anymore.
So sorry about the loss of your husband, my thoughts
are with you, as I’m sure are those of many others
on this site, who have been encouraged by your
comments.
Reply
Caroline says:
May 7, 2016 at 12:34 pm
Thank you all for your comments. It’s a certain kind of hell former Jehovah’s Witnesses or active Jehovah’s Witnesses go through when we lose someone close to us, especially if we feel responsible for either getting them disfellowshipped and they committed suicide or they get cancer and die from being publicly reproved or they die because of blood. There are no words to describe that kind of hell and you wonder if you will ever be happy again.
There is so much blood guilt on the head of the governing Body of the Watchtower Society of New York because of the millions of lives that they have destroyed.
Nobody can appreciate how horrible it is until we go through it ourselves and now I know how others like me have suffered in similar situations.
Reply
enlightened says:
May 7, 2016 at 1:31 pm
45 members of my JW family shun us, following the April 2012 Watchtower where the stronger rules came into play. We are considered “apostates worthy of death”…….after being in the organization for 30 years, and marrying a 3rd generation JW who has also left, it is difficult to re-enter society and make friends. But I am glad to be free of mind control.
Reply
Bad Penny says:
May 7, 2016 at 1:55 pm
A thought provoking article Covert, and one that must touch the heart of every ex JW out there.
I was one of those from the ‘world’, who along with my partner, took hold of the JW carrot at the age of 29. I spent the next 30 years striving to do Watchtower bidding until the wake-up call in 2013. Reading Ray Franz book opened my eyes – his words were saying just how I felt. Further research confirmed that this one time love affair with Watchtower had been a waste of my time and my life. It was a lie!
I still feel bitterness towards the GB and have to stop myself from kicking over those dreaded trolleys, but as they say, time is a great healer. We can’t undo the past, we can only change our future. Unfortunately, the scars remain.
Reply
Alice says:
May 7, 2016 at 5:09 pm
This web site reminds me of a self help group I once attended called The Compassionate Friends. It’s a group that meets together to help parents who have lost their children to death. I went to this group for a year after my ten year old son died. The majority of the parents who attended had lost their children to drowning in swimming pool accidents. A doctor started the group when he realized that parents who had lost their children to death were the best for helping other parents going through the same experience. This sort of help is going on here. The people who come to this website are going through different stages in their own personal dealings with the JW religion. I’ve been through all of the stages. First denial. I thought I could bluff my family into thinking I was still a JW. Then came anger. I couldn’t hide my true feelings towards the JW religion from my family as I woke up more and more… Now I’m going through acceptance of my family situation. They are indoctrinated. I’m not. I understand they’re indoctrinated so I love them, I understand them, I forgive them, I’m ready to let go. And I have moved on. I no longer have to look over my shoulder. I tired of being a hypocrite but I wanted to be with my family at the time. My anxiety is gone. I’m very calm. I was ready to let go. Good for me. But I understand what people are going through. I went through it. Thank you
Reply
Alice says:
May 7, 2016 at 11:33 pm
I want to add there will never be closure for me when it comes to losing my ten year old son. He was my only child. For many on this website there will never be closure because they have family and loved ones who are still indoctrinated. It doesn’t matter what someone else feels about your own situation. It’s hard when people say the wrong thing. I hate it when people say Ah, get over it. When they say that to me it makes me feel like I want to slap them, oh, so hard.. Many people remember someone who loved them and then is gone. For many people it takes time for things to fall in place in their minds. Ridicule doesn’t help. I hate ridicule because the person who ridicules someone shows the kind of person they are and it’s not good. I think I’m staying away from you. Your no good. Ridicule causes a negative reaction. It doesn’t help because even if a ridiculer might be correct. When he says it the wrong way people wont listen.
Reply
Grace says:
May 8, 2016 at 5:32 pm
Alice,
Your comment resonates so deeply with me. I just spent the weekend with my sister talking about this very thing. Losing a child is the most painful thing anyone can go through. Our daughter was our only child as well & we weren’t able to have more children.
20 years ago the offer for me was there to join a support group as the one you mention but I chose the JW’s instead. Now I feel ready to find one again. Thank you for making the comment because I have been contemplating that for a couple of months now but held off. Still shaking off the shackles, I guess.
Also, what a beautifully written article. There are many wonderful people & things to pursue, we just have to find the courage now to pursue them & let go of the fear that WT induced into us.
Reply
Alice says:
May 8, 2016 at 10:45 pm
Thank you. When my husband and I went to the Compassionate Friends group we were mad at each other because I wanted to talk about it but my husband didn’t. After we joined the group, people in the group told us we were being normal and what we were doing was very common. That helped my husband and I. We became very close. My husband died in 2010. This website helps me the same way that group helped me. All of us here are going through feelings of loss because of the JW religion and are trying to get the poison out of our mn Dos and to be unindoctrinated
Reply
Caroline says:
May 8, 2016 at 2:12 am
https://youtu.be/GPfIzNgxzqc
This video says it all for me and for so many of us.
Reply
Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:
May 8, 2016 at 2:21 am
This cult has spoiled many people. this was written before they came in my country…
*** km 5/74 p. 3 How Are You Using Your Life? ***
Reports are heard of brothers selling their homes and property and planning to finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service. Certainly this is a fine way to spend the short time remaining before the wicked world’s end.—1 John 2:17
It seems “the short time remaining” is worse than “(Genesis 3:15) . . .I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel.”
Reply
New Carrion says:
May 8, 2016 at 7:35 am
Thanks to Covert Fade !!!
The orgs kangaroo court justice system opened our eyes. Repeatedly they refused to even hear factual evidence of innocence. Then used the excuse of an unrepentant attitude to convict and DF our innocent brothers.
Shortly after we discovered Crisis of Conscience and JW Survey. A new brotherhood.
Reply
Chiafade says:
May 8, 2016 at 9:34 pm
I’ve been reading everyone’s comments on here and decided to check on JW.Borg to see what they had to say about this years regional assembly. David Simoneon said : “Our convention this year features content that will help people develop stronger bonds with friends, family members and, above all, with God. We are confident that all who attend will enjoy this program.”
To say this with a straight face shows the level of delusion. You can feel people’s pain just reading the comments on this sight. Families are shattered because of an ideology that is the equivalent of a child’s fairytale.
David Simoneon and I had speaking parts in the same convention in 2009. I remember he said of Christendom ” she is that dog!” Considering watchtowers history he had no room to talk. I wish I had known then what I know now. He deserves a well placed pop on the nose and so does the gb.
We all know the stronger bonds spoken of are mental and emotional chains meant to bind their already dutiful slaves. A God of Justice would have nothing to do with this organization.
Reply
Vinitha says:
May 8, 2016 at 11:43 pm
Well written article Covert Fade. The only reason to identify ourselves as Ex-JW is to help the people left behind in the organization.
Reply
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← Why Watchtower should be ashamed of its new homophobic child propaganda cartoon
The Friday Column: Why I don’t want to destroy Watchtower →
The Friday Column: Leave no man behind
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Posted on May 6, 2016
tumblr_static_bobposter1I had brothers when I was a Jehovah’s Witness.
They were not related to me. We shared no blood. Neither did I use this term in the arbitrary “spiritual” sense, granting brotherhood simply because someone shared my religious beliefs irrespective of the content of character or the quality of their friendship.
No, they were not physical brothers, nor brothers in faith. Yet they were my brothers in every way that truly mattered.
I grew up with them. From the explosion of discovery and imagination and growth that was childhood, to the energetic teenage and early twenties where life and energy seemed infinite and glittering with potential, to the growing maturity and stability of adulthood, we shared each others triumphs, felt each others pain. We adventured across the world together, built memories that will echo inside me forever. We had each other’s backs, and we’d take a bullet for each other if we had to.
Yet we postponed our lives.
Some of us put off getting married. Sure, there were lots of great girls in the congregations, but there would be time for that later. Right now, the faith needed our time and energy. So we lived single and alone, not knowing things like the fundamental joy of sleepily holding close the person you love in bed on a lazy Sunday morning.
Some of us put off doing what we loved, delayed becoming who we wanted to become. I knew musicians, artists, scientists, lawyers, activists and writers, none of whom were doing what they loved. Their talents lay slack, fallow, as they cleaned windows, and worked mundane low-pay jobs. In the New System, we thought, we can be what we truly are. For now, we can just put what we are on hold, and become something else, something lesser. Just for a little while. Just until the New World.
Some of us put off having children. Not in this system. Not in all this chaos. After Armageddon, when the children can grow up safe in a better world. One day we would be the parents they so desperately wanted to be, but not now. Not now.
I used to think this way.
Then I was set free.
Freedom to feel the ticking clock
set-free1Against a background of increasing cognitive dissonance and disquiet about what I was seeing and hearing from he organisation that ruled my life, I was finally given the information I need to make an informed choice about allegiance to the religion I had been born into.
This information came not from Watchtower publications, nor from “apostates” screaming abuse in my face. It came from JWfacts.com. JWsurvey.org. Google. Youtube. Raymond Franz. All of these online resources provided the counterpoints to the propaganda I’d been fed since birth.
For the first time in my life, I was able to weigh up the facts, and ask hard questions of my religion. For the first time in my life, I saw how dismally the Watchtower faith responded to the challenge.
And so, like so many others who finally see behind the curtain of the high control religion we were blindly born into, I chose to leave.
Shedding doctrine and belief was easier for me than many others have found. On some level, I think I’d always rejected most of the Watchtower’s more ludicrous teachings and harmful practices. The one exception to this was giving up my idea of eternal life on a paradise earth. This loss was bitterly painful, but the resulting energy that this loss brought to my life was spectacular.
Now that I know my life is finite, I have finally begun to live it with an energy and enthusiasm that my JW self never could have conceived. The seconds tick away, and I know that life has more to see and do than I can ever achieve.
No matter how hard I try, I know now that I will die with many items on my “to-do” list unfulfilled.
This knowledge has not crippled me: it has set me free to focus on what truly fulfils me. It has empowered me to cast away the dawdling, casual wastes of time I indulged in when I felt life was infinite. The things I was putting on hold are now the core of my life, and I have lived more since I left the cult than I ever did during my imprisonment.
Yet I left my brothers behind.
Brothers in chains
1226928328176I know the potential that is chained and suppressed in the brothers I left behind.
They are musicians and artists so talented and bursting with potential it would make you weep. They are scientists and philosophers who could contribute vastly to the human condition, saving lives and minds, who instead clean windows because they are waiting for a paradise that will never come. They are wonderful parents who will never have children because they are using their time to serve a lie for a phantom reward.
Time is bleeding them, and they do not even know it. Every year that goes by is another year of wasted opportunities, where choices narrow and options shrink. I cannot bare the thought that the brothers I love will look back one day, with fading eyes and struggling breath, on a life of wasted potential and disappointment, and wish that they could have gotten out of the cult whilst there was still time to live.
I yearn to give them the same chance I had: to obtain all of the information they have previously been denied, and make an informed choice.
Yet this is hard to do.
If I were to attempt to discuss this directly with them, I know they would simply refuse to engage, and that any lingering threads of friendship still existing between us would be severed. The cult that imprisons them has driven its hooks in deep, and any rising impulse to directly engage with me on this subject would be dragged back down on a razor-blade leash.
Yet I remember my own path. Growing evermore disquieted by increasingly extreme and illogical Watchtower teachings. Reaching out in secret to online activists. JWfacts.com. JWsurvey.org. Google. Youtube. Raymond Franz. Weighing the facts they presented against Watchtower’s claims.
And finally becoming free.
That is a path my brothers can walk. It is a path I am increasingly sure many of them will. The only question is; will they do it whilst there is still time to live a real life?
So this is why I do what I do.
To help pile legal and media pressure on Watchtower, forcing it to make increasingly extreme and damaging mistakes in public that reveal its deceitful and harmful core.
To raise public awareness of those mistakes, to make them so unavoidable and exposed that my brothers cannot help but become aware of them, rusting the chains and straining the leash that the cult has placed around their minds.
To help grow the online resources available to my brothers so that when they do make their choice to reach out for the facts, in secret and trembling from fear, they have every possible chance of choosing to free themselves from their chains as soon as possible and spend whatever time they have left genuinely living, rather than being told how to live.
I seek not to drag my brothers away from their faith against their will. If they choose to remain, so be it, but let it be an informed choice.
I seek no followers. Follow no man. Question everything, then follow only your own conscience and the conclusions you draw through your own powers of reason and critical thinking. Understand that truth fears no enquiry, but that falsehood is terrified of questioning.
Choose your life. Never allow another to choose it for you. Carve out your own destiny from the time you have with your own two hands. My Brothers deserve this chance just as much as I.
Leave no man behind
Tmaxresdefaulthere is a moment in the war film Black Hawk Down that captures with simple elegance why I feel compelled to do what I do in trying to hold Watchtower to account.
In the scene I refer to, a soldier (played by actor Eric Bana) is given an opportunity to stand down from the harrowing battle and recover in the safety of his base of operations. He refuses, and instead goes back into the danger of the war-zone to try and rescue his trapped fellow soldiers. When challenged on the apparent insanity of this act, he replies.
When I go home, and people ask me, “Hey Hoot, why do you do it, man? Why? You some kind of war junkie?” I won’t say a goddamn word. Why? They won’t understand. They won’t understand why we do it.
They won’t understand it’s about the men next to you… and that’s it.
That’s all it is.
Leave no man behind.
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← Why Watchtower should be ashamed of its new homophobic child propaganda cartoon
The Friday Column: Why I don’t want to destroy Watchtower →
114 Responses to The Friday Column: Leave no man behind
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rahab says:
May 9, 2016 at 1:40 am
hie all you guys.my family and I hav been jws until 2010 when we were awakened due to mistreatment by elders.we searched these blogs and realized we hav been tragically misled.i disassociated together with my husband,son and two daughters bt one was left in.it has been traumatic for us since that tym bcoz she could hear none of it.luckily she was also mistreated and started searching[I salute you guys of this blog] and it dint take long for her to see.now we are all out.i have a question here for all of you.ever since I discovered the truth,i wondered why people can stage manage to deceive people in such a manner.after doing intensive research,i concluded wt is a satanic cult,just like fritz springmeier says.its teachings are convoluted so that once you discover its a lie,you start asking,where do I go now?you get annoyed and having been taught tht everything else but it on planet earth is satanic,you enter into another trap,that all religion is a deception and all believe is false and hence disbelieve in God.people in this blog,dont you think you have fallen into another watchtower trap?is that what is happening here?
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Alice says:
May 9, 2016 at 5:48 am
Rehab, my answer is no, not at all, what you are seeing here is many people with different beliefs. Some who come here are very religious. Others aren’t. We are learning to think for ourselves. That can come across as being very negative at times. Waking up is a process. We have gone from being mindless robots to thinking for ourselves. It’s a mindset. Satan has nothing to do with waking up. I understand your question. It comes from being misguided for so long by the organization. You will be glad at how well you will feel a year from now.
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Josh says:
May 9, 2016 at 8:55 am
Hi Alice,
I am still in, active, living the lie, trying to find a way to break free, that won’t devastate my family.
Funny thing is I read your post, and it really made sense. ” waking up is a process”. It doesn’t have to be instant right? Thanks 🙂
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Big B says:
May 9, 2016 at 9:54 am
Josh,
You are absolutely correct; “waking up is a process” as well as when to start your fade. Some, that are unencumbered by J.W. family members, are more likely to leave immediately. Others find it more difficult as they ‘leave behind’ family and comrades.
After 55 years of involvement, my immediate family and I, finally realized that this cult offered us nothing but continued work; not to Jehovah but a “Millerite Adventist” throw back. Period!
We, although doing separate research, came to the same conclusions; namely,
1.that the Bible does not give New Light or corrections in interpretations (imperfect men do),
2.those who claim to have or be guided by the Holy Spirit don’t and aren’t,
3.while professing to have the above, joined the U.N. as a N.G.O. for 10 years thus showing that they don’t practice nor believe what they preach http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/united-nations-association.php ,
4.while claiming poverty Watchtower continues to purchase property for investment http://gotoby.com/news/article/2245/Watchtower-Buys-Former-FAA-Training-Facility-in-Palm-Coast-for-$7025000 ,
5.child molestation payouts in the $10’s of millions worldwide giving them bad press http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/06/15/12225753-jehovahs-witnesses-ordered-to-pay-more-than-20-million-to-woman-who-said-she-was-sexually-abused?lite ,
6.J.W’s, because of lack of college education, are forced to take menial jobs, while being told that getting a secular education “is being a tool of the Devil (2013 ‘God’s Word is Truth’ District Convention “Believe Inspired Truth not Inspired Error”).
That’s sums up our case for my immediate family leaving ‘the Truth’. All are doing well and except for my occasional comments, and hopefully encouragement, have completely broken free of this nonsense calling itself ‘God’s Organization’.
Anytime you want to learn or vent please feel free to come here. As they say on exjw Critical Thinker, “Better to have Questions you can’t Answer than Answers you can’t Question”, https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpHhWSPtMDTSa8dzapmzo5A
Besides I find that this site is both therapeutic and enlightening. Good Luck with your fade. 🙂
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Winston Smith says:
May 9, 2016 at 10:20 am
Josh,
Just as it took a set amount of time for us to be indoctrinated into the JW cult, for many it was years, it will take a similar amount of time to awaken/recover. And likely the longer we were associated, the longer the recovery process.
I have been fading since 2012 and I am now about as far out as I can be while still preserving my marriage to an active member. I still have to be careful who I talk to within the org (I don’t talk to anyone other than family, and only some of them will speak to me) because I have minor children who I don’t want to have to deal with their parent being DF’d as an apostate. Maybe someday my wife will wake up.
WS
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Will says:
May 10, 2016 at 11:17 am
@Winston Smith I stopped attending in 2014 and my wife is in and only reason I haven’t officially withdrawn are my wife and kids. I think at this point, it will do more harm than good. The label “apostate” or “disassociated” will only strengthen the “Satan is attacking the family” mentality.
Alice says:
May 9, 2016 at 9:27 am
I’m sorry Rahab I called you Rehab I am sorry
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peggy says:
May 9, 2016 at 4:03 pm
Fritz Artz Springmeier (also known as Viktor E. Schoff) is an American right wing conspiracy theorist author, formerly a resident of Corbett, Oregon, who has written a number of books claiming that satanic forces are behind a move toward world domination by various families and organizations.Wow, I never heard of him. And, probably don’t care to. Yet, to kindly respond to your question of another “trap” here. I am certain there is no deception here. There are free thinkers and activist interested in freeing others from the chains of fear. Uhmmmm I am doing fine. It would appear that Mr. Springmeier is selling a lot of fear. So, I am confused as to whether you “like” him and think he is helping people by selling his version of what ever.
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peggy says:
May 9, 2016 at 4:05 pm
This was reply to Rahab,
p.s. I am glad you all got away from Watchtower.
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Julien says:
May 10, 2016 at 9:09 pm
Perhaps Rahab you need to dig deeper on where the theory of satan comes from. It would be nice for a change if people started taking responsibilities for their actions and stop blaming “satan” the man made boggie man. I do beleive that religions are all systems of controls but some are far more destructive than others. Others beleive christ liberates them frim everything. I dont personally beleive in the bible i have done too much digging and too much searching as to its origins to beleive but If i where to beleive in a god i would have to say god existed befor religion and therefore does not require human interpretation or rationalization. I am still convinced that some people do need religion. The concept of being forgiven is a huge motivator specially for those who cannot forgive themselves. Some have a great need that needs to be filled by something external, higher, above themselves. But to choose an enslaving frame of mind that is debilitating and crippling not only to ones own growth but to others as well? That is very tragic.
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Tara says:
May 11, 2016 at 6:53 am
I think I am more spiritual now rather than religious. I won’t go back to organised religion but I still have a faith….. saying that, I feel confused as to my faith at times. I can no longer use the name Jehovah…. There are times I believe the Bible was written for and only for the people of that era. I say that because if God knows everything he would have made sure his word encompassed the probability that, for example, blood would be used in transfusions. He would have made it clear. I think people clutch at interpretations as the truth when we really have no way to know. We could take another similar book written thousands of years ago and say ‘this is the way’…. I’m not knocking the Bible… I just think it is a history of a people long gone.
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Twmack says:
May 9, 2016 at 3:30 am
Gramma Velta,
Thanks for your good wishes it’s greatly appreciated.
What arrogance, disfellowshipping you , a true believer
for apostasy. You didn’t abandon God but a man made
organisation that has placed itself before God.
As Ray Franz expressed it. “They say, alright you can have
a relationship with Christ, but first you’ve got to go through us”.
They ignore the teaching about “One Mediator”. I repeat
“What overbearing Arrogance”.
Gramma Velta, all my best wishes to you and your family,
@ Also thanks to Holly Chu for kind comment.
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Gary says:
May 9, 2016 at 6:14 am
If I ruled the world I’d make every religious person listen to “sheep” by Pink Floyd and get them before they go to war.
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Gary says:
May 9, 2016 at 6:24 am
Interestingly in the picture on the album cover, between the mouths of the statues, there is a church. “The division Bell”.
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Gary says:
May 9, 2016 at 6:34 am
One of the tracks is called “keep talking”, such is the deafness of religionists.
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Tara says:
May 9, 2016 at 7:21 am
Had and very short but interesting text over the weekend. I am basically shunned now by the cong. because I am spiritually weak – don’t go to meeting, don’t report blaa blaa blaa. Anyway, out of the blue came a short text from a MS who has always had a softer spot for me than he should have – being married. He just told me how much he values my friendship and how special I am to him. Then he signs off with ‘you are in ‘our’ thoughts and prayers’… One tormented soul. I know this guy. He is a rebel at heart but torn between the rebel and the WT. For him to contact me, albeit short and sweet, he is obviously missing the association we once had. I told him before Christmas I would not be back. I know he panicked back then but I think he now knows I mean it. I also believe he will have a hard time shunning me.
My point is, there are many who are sitting on the invisible fence. Many of our previous, brothers and sisters are having issues with the whole shunning thing and I believe it will only take a little push ie something happening in their lives for them to walk away from the WT. I hope we can all be there when the wall comes down for them. We know how difficult it is so I hope our compassion holds out. Who knows who will come out. Maybe that horrid elder and his equally horrid elderette. But a survivor is a survivor. Leave none behind.
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Freed Mason says:
May 9, 2016 at 7:51 am
Great comment, I agree totally, the WTBS turns some normal people into narcissistic morons especially when they get a few rungs up the corporate ladder – who knows what they would be like when not under the influence, many of us will certainly be there for any survivors of this cult.
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Twmack says:
May 9, 2016 at 8:07 am
@Rahab, I don’t consider I have fallen into a WT trap by
questioning the existence of a God. It’s just that going through
life accepting as a given without question all that religion teaches,
that’s any religion not just W T. — Then–
Once critical thinking kicks into life, it takes us beyond the surface
even questioning the reality that we are all here by the will of an
all wise loving creator. Many questions cross my mind that cause
me to doubt.
Because of recent comments, one puzzling thought occurred to me.
In July I will have been married for 62 years, my wife and I are still
deeply in love. It can’t be all that long before one of us has to leave.
It makes not the slightest sense to me, say that my wife should be
taken from me and to a place, be it a paradise earth or heaven, where
there is no marriage. No special relationship , no laying together,
no tender caresses , I cannot accept this as either wise or loving.
One man made the imbecilic statement that “We could all be changed
into men, ( J F Rutherford )
I try not to regret my 24 years in the org, I made the decision it’s
my responsibility. I just take the positives from it. Oh yes there are
one or two, it got me out of the killer habit of smoking. With the
asthma and bronchitis that I have I’m certain I wouldn’t have reached
the age of 85. had I continued.
If oblivion is the final outcome, I’m not morose or bitter, I’m grateful
for a long life which sadly is not the experience of all.
Thanks Rahab for your thought provoking comment.
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dee2 says:
May 9, 2016 at 11:13 am
For Twmack’s a jolly good fellow, for Twmack’s a jolly good fellow……………
That’s an awesome batting average skipper – 85 not out! Any fours, any boundaries?
Best wishes 🙂
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Freed Mason says:
May 10, 2016 at 3:11 am
@Twmack – Critical thinking and questioning is not encouraged by the WTBS as can be seen by the modus operandi:
1. Watchtower Study: We will push our thoughts down to you and you underline and answer a question from our thoughts in the paragraph.
2. Questions from Readers in the Watchtower: Disappeared a while ago, the questions that were answered were heavily moderated and tuned to fit in to current understanding.
3. Your Relationship with God: We will handle your life account with the Big Man, please don’t raise any questions or injustices at the hand of the Judicial Committee as errors and omissions are due to the imperfect nature of humans.
4. New Light: If you don’t keep up with new light – it is your fault, please don’t blame us for your tardiness and lack of time to study current understandings.
5. Higher Education – We need qualified lawyers at Head Office – any out there that disobeyed us and went and got a law degree?
What a bunch of Jokers…
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Big B says:
May 11, 2016 at 8:05 am
Number 5, what a laugh!
Still can’t get over the unmitigated nerve. Good Luck finding qualified lawyers in the organization that will drop their own case loads to help the Watchtower. They probably want them to work pro bono as well. 🙂
Their foolish policy’s concerning Higher Education have come home to roost.
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Holy Connoli says:
May 10, 2016 at 4:04 am
@twmack. You have a good attitude. I also try to have the same attitude but it is difficult for sure. During my 23+ years as a JW and raised 3 JW kids
I went thru some very tough times and things I always questioned etc and a LOT of negative experiences but I try to look at the good things I did experience also and there was some good things that I carry over. For example, I did learn about the bible ( even though they wrongly interpret it to their benefit ) There was a sense of community. I traveled to places I never would have been to in the past, My kids and myself did not get involved with drugs,I did meet some interesting people and a lot of people from all ove the world. That being said, the negatives far outweigh the positives. The mind control was overwhelming to me. The freedom of thought and expresion was taken away from all of us,The hypocrisy from the Elders and ORG was horrible,The future that they took away from so many young people who are now old and never went to higher education to serve the demands of the WT org. The forced marriages that went bad bc of WT forcing young ones into marriage so quicly bc of “POLICY”. The sexual scandals that have caused 1000’s to be damaged and no help from the WT not even anapology bc they know they are wrong. The forced acceptance of anything they say even though it changes from month-month sometimes. The daeaths of 1000;s due to No blood transfusions. WOw, TWmack, we should be glad we woke up, Even though you are 82 years old be glad you are awake and you have a great attitude. I am so glad you and your wife love each other deeply. That is a great and wonderful thing most people never experience. MAy you have many many more happy years together.
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dee2 says:
May 9, 2016 at 11:11 am
Rahab:
Like Twmack, I don’t consider myself to have fallen into a WT trap. I consider myself to be more along the lines of what Alice stated in her comment above and what this article encourages: I have learnt to think for myself and to question everything.
I don’t see why I can use my critical thinking skills and power of reasoning in every other aspect of my life but when it comes to the Bible, Christianity and religion this is taboo/off limits………the untold grief I would cause myself if I wasn’t able to use my critical thinking skills and power of reasoning in every other aspect of my life.
This is why, after waking up from JW indoctrination, I started to investigate the origins of Christianity, the reasons for writing the Bible and what went into the writing of the Bible and came to my own conclusions.
I do not hold back from questioning everything for fear that God will punish me in some way for doing so as some persons may be inclined to think.
When we can’t question everything then that is when we open ourselves up to undue influence, phobia indoctrination and information control.
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Twmack says:
May 9, 2016 at 11:47 am
Dee 2, One or two fours Dee even the odd six
but most of the time stumped. LOL.
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dee2 says:
May 9, 2016 at 1:42 pm
Naah…….85? you’ve guarded that wicket very well. I would definitely put you as a higher order batsman……..my opening batsman definitely. It would definitely be a bad strategy to use you as a night watchman. LOL.
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Outandabout says:
May 9, 2016 at 3:21 pm
Reading all these experiences makes my heart bleed. Nothing gets my gander up more than injustice.
Just as there are laws to try and keep us safe from drugs or anything deemed harmful, it is high time we enacted laws to strangle these cults off at the base.
It will come, but sadly, when it does it will be touted as persecution and the deluded will retreat further into their prison.
One of the things fundamentalism shows us is that when the bible gets taken literally, it leads to trouble. No question. It san only be palatable after all the nasty bits have been removed, but the problem is, doing that is not being true. A dilemma. Just a few more dots to join and a wee bit of critical thinking will fix that.
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C M says:
May 9, 2016 at 4:18 pm
I know exactly what you felt while writing this letter “Covert Fade”. I had brothers and sisters I would die for in this religion, some of whom now pass by me in the grocery store, some who say hi and are really glad to see me at the Memorials or Funerals or at the Assembly/Convention with my mom since she is the only one in my direct family who still attends the meetings even though she is not doing well healthwise. But it is sad to know that people you love so dearly are still prisioners of this religion and will choose the religion over our friendship. So you just don’t go to the meetings anymore and mind your business and decide to never tell them it’s all a lie and that there so much more to life and how happy I have been since I stopped going to the meetings and yet how sad I am and wish they could enjoy it with me but you just can’t because you know what will happen. But I have also had success in helping some people fade away as well, but they seek me first. Thanks for writing this article.
C M
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Truth sets free says:
May 9, 2016 at 4:38 pm
Bravo!!!!!!!
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Alice says:
May 9, 2016 at 10:05 pm
CM you wrote, you have helped some people fade away as well, but they seek you first. Have you seen this month’s May video with Tony Morris? Others may seek you out after watching this video. A quarter of the way through the video a family is interviewed who continues to pioneer even though they no longer have a bread winner in the family. The father lost his job and said the congregation has been suporting them for months. At the end of the interview Tony Morris said, “Thank you for your story.” And that’s what I think it was, a story. Many of the rank and file are beginning to smell a rat. At the last meeting I attended the brother giving the talk said many are falling away because of changes made through enlightenment. People are beginning to see it’s all smoke and mirrors.
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OZY says:
May 10, 2016 at 1:51 am
The Poster Said Something I Dont Agree With, He Said ‘The Paradise Wont Come’ Its Just Like Saying Christ Will Never Come.
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dee2 says:
May 10, 2016 at 6:13 am
OZY,
Will Paradise or Christ come?
What reason(s) are there for believing that Paradise or Christ will come?
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James Broughton says:
May 10, 2016 at 6:55 am
What a superb article, sensitively written straight from the heart, and yet with an intellectual persuasiveness that reminded me of Ray Franz ‘Crisis of Conscience’ and William Schnell’s ‘Thirty Years a Watchtower Slave’. I am challenged by your words “Choose your life. Never allow another to choose it for you. Carve out your own destiny from the time you have with your own two hands. My Brothers deserve this chance just as much as I.” Thank you.
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Truth sets free says:
May 10, 2016 at 9:29 am
Excellent article! Websites like JW survey and articles such as these were very instrumental in helping me to be set free. I was a slave of the watchtower for over 30 years. served as an elder and ministerial servant . One of the reasons I step down as an elder is I felt I could no longer be a part of the harsh treatment that the body of elders inflicted on the brothers and sisters in the congregation! So I step down and became a m/s. then I became the victim of the abuse Of a few “elders” that loved beating the sheep into submission rather than shepherding! The whole congregation knew that I was treated unfairly so it was a perfect time for me to take my leave. I still have family and friends that are very involved and wanted to maintain a relationship with them. So as a previous comment was made it is a process in leaving the watchtower. A lot of things had been bothering me up to that time , the United Nations, protection of pedophiles, watching Brother Jackson lie under oath before the Royal commission! I had been wanting to leave for quite some time. So I put together a exit strategy . I have kept my mouth shut and I’ve let the brothers know that I was just hurt ! and they claim they understand. I feel by knowing the truth about the truth I have been set free! My choice has been not to let those SOBs disfellowship me and take my family and friends away from me! So I go about my new life now ! I still believe in Jesus Christ and living a good clean life . I have not been to a meeting in two years and I refuse to knock on someone’s door and teach them lies!!! And I’ve come to the realization that there are a lot of good people in this world that have chosen different faiths and they wind up being good hearted people. Jesus said you will know my true followers by the Fruits they bear, and the more I reach out and gain new friends and new associates it is very obvious to me that the watch Tower does not have A monopoly on those kind of people !!!!! Sometimes I do feel like screaming out to the top of my lungs and trying to help the friends break away from this cult. But I realized that it’s a process each one of the friends eventually will have to choose for themselves there is plenty of information and plenty of places to go like this website to get it! So I do it slowly with a little comment here and a little comment there , I watch the reaction and then make a choice whether to become silent or pursue a conversation it seems to be the best approach for me. As dealing with it this way I feel I still get a chance to talk to the friends and that gives me an opportunity to give what information I can without going too far .
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Big B says:
May 12, 2016 at 11:20 am
@Truth Sets Free;
Brilliant exit strategy; and my hat’s off to you!
Agree with all that you said and you’re right, I too “wish to scream at the top of my lungs to help the friends” however, I realize that they will deny it, or not appreciate what I’m telling them unless they do their OWN research. After all, what do you appreciate more, a free “something” you have no time/money invested in or a paid/worked for “something”.
That is why I don’t feel obligated to help those who refuse to ask or question why I left. Too bad for them. A true pity. 🙁
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Alice says:
May 10, 2016 at 3:00 pm
Truth sets free. You did good. My mom told me don’t try to reason with a closed mind. You’ll get nowhere after you’ve run around in circles and it only results in anger, hurt feelings and you’ll get nowhere. I’m not saying don’t be honest. I’m saying there’s nothing wrong with being mature about it as you’re realizing the person is being a sucker. A person isn’t being true to themselves by blowing people out of the water. They’re just being volatile and impatient . I say, don’t allow an organization to manipulate you into disassociating yourself. Don’t let them win that way. That way people who are still in the cult will be able to come to you.
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clement says:
May 11, 2016 at 10:15 am
That was a nice post,am currently active JW member and about to exit the society because i feel they have succeeded in ruining my life,wasted my time of going to the university but need a concrete prove to leave this cult. Clement
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Bad Penny says:
May 14, 2016 at 3:58 am
clement – Concrete proof – how about a little deception to research?
The Battle of Carchemish, when was it fought? History (check it out) dates the Battle to circa 605 BC.
Why then does the ‘Insight Volume 1’ page 418, last paragraph, date the Battle to 625 BCE?
By DELIBERATELY re-dating this battle it fits in with their deception on 607.
ALL the dates that corroborate their thinking on 607 have been manipulated and changed to suit. Check it out for yourself. Then ask yourself WHY? I hope you come to the same conclusion.
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rahab says:
May 10, 2016 at 7:16 pm
@alice.apology accepted though really no harm done.thankyu all for the responses.my take on this is that,in order to get even with wt and what it did to me,i will shed everything it taught me and revert back to everything I was bfo they knocked on my door,including belief in God[its the only believe that makes sense to me] and my same old religion and church.i want to make a statement to wt that I have undone what they did to me and non of its false teachings has any influence on the decisions I make,and am my old same self again.i will reclaim my life they robbed away from me.
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Gary says:
May 11, 2016 at 12:18 am
Just a heads up. . . Both my children and their friends and family have had friends requests from local elders using Facebook. One of my daughters friends was contacted by an elder from Africa telling her to read certain articles produced by the society regarding her tattoos. . Has anyone else had this experience?, . . Be careful what you put on Facebook and who can see it. . . Evidence.
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Gary says:
May 11, 2016 at 12:22 am
Apologies. . .we’re in the UK
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ruthlee says:
May 11, 2016 at 12:36 am
I have so enjoyed the responses to this very thought provoking article and how we are dealing with the fallout of this religion. It got me thinking about how UNREAL the paradise hope truly is because if any one who has given birth to or fathered a child in a happy normal union and raised that child through all the trials of human experience and then is told to discard the said offspring without a thought and care by men who are not even relatives of that child then they have not thought of eternity. There is not a crime against anyone that warrants an eternity of silence. Be honest Jehovahs Witnessess emphatically deny hell yet they willingly will submit a young baptised member to a cold silent hell forever because they don’t follow anymore. Can these shunners not SEE. When they get into their paradise and the dust settles and boredom sets in their beloved children will not be there because those loyal ones followed the rules. Who will be in a cold hell then with no chance of reconciliation with the child , their gift from God they so carelessly discarded. So you see in my mind if it is all true you will reap what you sow and paradise will be hell on earth with many many guilty conscience families who will be bereft forever. Now that is justice. Ruthlee
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Markie says:
May 11, 2016 at 11:04 am
Think your wrong. Must JWs are very self righteous and will say that there children didn’t love Jehovah enough and that they did the best they could. So its not their fault their kids didn’t make it.
One loving elders wife said in front of her grandchild that she better enjoy them now because they are soon to be bird food. He was young so I hope he didn’t understand.
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rahab says:
May 11, 2016 at 1:43 am
@peggy;i will be very brief on whether I belief fritz springmeier.i will quote the fictional detective who said that,when investigating crime or murder,eliminate all impossibilities and what you will be left with is the truth no matter how much you see it as not being possible.he[fritz] mentions that he wondered why and how th wt controls its adherents the way it does as I had mentioned in my earlier comment.i realized that apart from money,power and control,there is something else.after eliminating thoz three and looking at the similarities btween wt,masons/secret societies,pedophilia in wt etc,i concluded there was more to it than meets the eye.call it whatever you imagine could but I call it satansm
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rahab says:
May 11, 2016 at 1:47 am
I mean fictional detective sharlock holmes
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Innocent Son says:
May 11, 2016 at 4:16 am
Great article ‘ Covert Fade ‘ I was held a slave to this Organisation for many, many years. I gradually faded but in the process lost many close Brothers and Sisters most of whom do not speak or even acknowledge me in any shape or form…..However I’m free and living life and have got many close ‘ worldly friends ‘ who are like family to me. I appreciate every day and I’m so glad that I’m no longer under a yoke!
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Grace says:
May 11, 2016 at 9:04 pm
Just wondering if anyone wants to sign this petition if you haven’t already yet. It only needs 270 more to reach the goal.
https://www.change.org/p/united-states-attorney-general-investigate-the-watchtower-society-of-jehovah-s-witnesses-re-child-sexual-abuse
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Terence Hackett says:
May 12, 2016 at 1:08 am
Depressingly accurate !
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Gary says:
May 12, 2016 at 6:51 am
In the 1930s the world suffered a terrible financial depression, no doubt in the aftermath of the 1914 conflict. Politicians rose to frame and religion capitalised on people’s hope for better days.
Such is the brutality of mind control https://youtu.be/xE_dA479MCs
Beware of “better days” manipulation
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Gary says:
May 12, 2016 at 7:18 am
Just another Crime of the Century (Supertramp)
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Doc Obvious says:
May 13, 2016 at 6:00 am
Dude Kingdom Halls rocked last night with Rock and Roll music in Jehovah’s House. Caleb and Sophia video on Respect Jehovah’s House. The video blew out a speaker in the Kingdom Hall.
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Lesley Dewar says:
May 17, 2016 at 2:51 am
My lovely mother was a JW from the 1950s until she unexpectedly died, last August. She was a few months short of her 95th birthday, and in complete control of her faculties. I had not been associated since the 1960s. She got disfellowshipped, once, because she would not give up associating with me, her only daughter. Eventually she was allowed back into the congregation but she and I maintained a deep and loving relationship all our lives.
She and I would discuss things which, she would laughingly say, if they knew what we were talking about today they would disfellowship me again, for heresy.
I approached the local congregation to give her a memorial service. The response was “she is old, no one here remembers her, no one would come.” A fine response for a woman who had devoted so many years of her life to their organisation.
I wrote her Eulogymyself, chose two songs that she had told me she wanted from their website and played one of them at the service. Let me tell you:.two elders turned up, uninvited, with Bibles marked ready to give us a sermon.
After I had finished speaking on behalf of my mother, I invited one of them to the podium. He said, “what can I say. You have said it all on behalf of your mother who was faithful to the end.”
What I did not say is that towards the end, my mum said “I know you will not follow me no matter how much I love you, and I am sorry my daughter but I am too old now to change.” She knew she had been deceived.
I love her and may she rest in peace.
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Truth sets free says:
May 19, 2016 at 4:21 pm
Thankyou Big b and alice!
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← The Friday Column: Leave no man behind
News Bulletin: Dutch reporter thrown out of District Convention →
The Friday Column: Why I don’t want to destroy Watchtower
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Posted on May 13, 2016
Kcj48ABcqI don’t want to bring down the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society.
That might have a couple of you blinking in suprise. If you are one of Jehovah’s Witnesses reading this, you may have been told that so called “apostates” want nothing more than to destroy your organisation, and wipe your faith from the surface of the planet.
If you are an ExJW, you might think that someone who spends as much time as I do criticising Watchtower behaviour and policy must have the total destruction of the religion as an endgame.
Well, I don’t.
I believe that religious freedom is a fundamental human right, and that people should be free to believe whatever they want to believe. I disagree with virtually every doctrine held by Jehovah’s Witnesses, but I will defend utterly their right to believe them.
I draw the line, however, when religious doctrines directly call for behaviour that is actively harmful to others.
Thus we come to the point.
My goal is not to destroy the Watchtower organisation and convince every Jehovah’s Witness on the planet to leave the religion.
My goal is to force Watchtower to abandon specific practices that are causing significant harm to other human beings by bringing these practices to the attention of Governments, the media, the general public, and in some cases Jehovah’s Witnesses themselves.
What specific practices are these? I will outline them below, and state the specific conditions Watchtower must achieve in order for me to consider the matter resolved. I do not speak for JW Survey, or for my fellow activists in this matter. These are my personal opinions, and my person criteria for “Mission Accomplished” as regards my activism towards Watchtower.
Child abuse policies
Geoffrey Jackson appeared before the Australian royal commission to answer to concerns over child abuse mishandling
Geoffrey Jackson appeared before the Australian royal commission to answer to concerns over child abuse mishandling
I believe that no organisation can ever have a perfect record when it comes to handling child sexual abuse, and that it is absurd to pretend otherwise.
People are imperfect, systems break down, and sometimes, despite all best efforts from a religious community, a predator will enter the flock and attack a child.
But there is a big difference between a few bad apples slipping through robust safeguards despite the diligent best efforts of an organisation on the one hand, and a systemic failure from the top down to tackle an abuse problem that is a well known problem internally, but is carefully hidden from the outside world on the other.
As has been shown again and again, in open court, in government investigations, and in multiple documentaries, the policies that Jehovah’s Witnesses use to handle allegations of child sexual abuse are not only ineffectual, they are actively dangerous and harmful, both to the abuse survivor and the surrounding community.
The “two witness” rule. The policy of not reporting molesters to the police unless legally required to do so. The traumatising Judicial Committee process that sees a vulnerable victim forced to give harrowing details of their abuse to a star-chamber comprised of three untrained men.
All of these factors combine to create an environment that the Australian Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sex abuse found placed the children of Jehovah’s Witnesses at “significant risk of sexual abuse,” and extends to affect the children of non-Witness parents sharing a community with an unreported abuser.
What is even worse is that most Witnesses are in the dark as to the details of these policies, and also to the scathing criticism these policies have been subjected to. They only see the casual dismissals by the Governing Body, who then warn Witnesses to flee from any news report or comment that shows the organisation in a bad light, and have no idea how prevalent child abuse actually is within their religion, or how vulnerable their children really are.
This situation cannot be allowed to stand.
◾Watchtower needs to be forced (via legal and financial penalties if needs be) to bring their worldwide child protection policies into line with what legal professionals and child psychologists believe to be “Best Practice” to safeguard children and prosecute molesters.
◾Watchtower needs to admit past flaws in its policies, compensate and apologise to abuse survivors, and openly do the above in full view of its membership.
Blood Transfusions
I believe that an adult Jehovah’s Witness has the right to refuse a blood transfusion.
Surprised? You shouldn’t be. I believe that a mature adult has the right to decide what happens to their own body. A mature adult has the right to refuse any and all medical treatment they so wish, even if this results in their death. I may consider their reasons foolish and absurd, but I respect the right of a mature adult to make this decision for themselves.
However, at present, Jehovah’s Witnesses are not making this choice of their own free will. Every Jehovah’s Witness facing this choices knows that, should they choose to accept a transfusion and live, they may face a Judicial Committee. Should they be unable to convince three Elders that they are sufficiently repentant for taking blood and staying alive, they will be disfellowshipped.
It is hard to argue, therefore, that Jehovah’s Witnesses currently refusing blood are doing so without coercion. No one should be made to choose between death on the one hand, and life without their family and friends on the other.
◾Watchtower needs to make it clear that there will be no official or unofficial sanction should an adult Witness decide to accept a transfusion.
Additionally, every year, Jehovah’s Witness parents place the lives of their children at risk by refusing life saving medical treatment for their children on purely religious grounds.
The infamous issue of Awake that celebrated the deaths of Witness children who died due to Watchtower’s policy on blood.
This practice is actively encouraged by Watchtower, who once printed an article celebrating children who had died needlessly due their parents refusal of treatment. Additionally, any parent who disobeys Watchtower’s instructions may face discipline from the congregation, and possible shunning.
A child is not capable of giving rational, informed consent in this matter; especially not one who has been raised all their life subjected to the indoctrination of their parents, and who relies on their parents to make all other decisions in life for them.
◾Watchtower needs to teach that the refusal of blood is a personal decision for a mature adult, that a child is not capable of making the choice to refuse, and that parents cannot make it on their behalf. It should be made crystal clear that children are neither expected or encouraged to refuse blood.
Shunning
Shunning is rife among Jehovah's Witnesses - a practice that breaks up families
Shunning is rife among Jehovah’s Witnesses – a practice that breaks up families
I believe that Watchtower has the right to disfellowship and to disassociate people.
Yes, I will say that again.
I believe that Watchtower has the right to disfellowship and to disassociate people. Any private group or organisation has the right to decide who does and does not hold membership of their group. Sports clubs. Charities. Financial companies. Religions. Such groups have the right to remove membership from a member who is no longer considered to meet the requirements for membership.
What Watchtower does not have the right to do, however, is demand that those who have left their organisation be shunned by family and friends.
Of all the harmful practices currently employed by Watchtower, the practice of shunning is by far the most widespread.
Simply put, any who officially leave the religion, either involuntarily (by disfellowshipping) or voluntarily (disassociation) must expect to undergo the harrowing and cruel ordeal of shunning. Any family and friends who remain as Jehovah’s Witnesses are required to treat the leaver as if they were dead, to not even say a greeting to them.
Whilst there is an unofficial third option known as “fading” (to simply cease all Watchtower related activities and no longer attend religious meetings) this option is far from reliable, as Watchtower still considers such a person to be subject to their rules and regulations. Many examples exist of Witnesses who have “faded” for many years nonetheless being tracked down and disfellowshipped once they move in with an unmarried partner, criticise the religion, or celebrate Christmas. The testimony of Geoffrey Jackson during the Australian Royal Commission confirmed that this was possible.
Additionally, many faders find themselves effectively shunned regardless, with friends and family ceasing contact and treating them as dangerous association. This means that children who are baptised and then grow up to no longer believe the faith must choose between their beliefs and their friends and family. It means adults who wish to excersise their right to change their religion (or choose no religion at all) must make the same harrowing choice.
Shunning is essentially a particularly vile form of blackmail. “Believe what we tell you to believe, and do what we tell you to do, or you will never see your loved ones again.”
◾Watchtower must repeal the sanction of shunning as part of Disfellowshipping or Disassociation, and must take active steps to alter Witness culture so that Witnesses do not expect to shun or be shunned when a person leaves the religion of their own accord or is removed from it against their will.
There are many other aspects of Watchtower doctrine that I dislike or consider harmful; Watchtowers teachings on divorce laws, sexual morality, evolution and so forth. But if the sanction of shunning were removed, these doctrines cease to be harmful to others.
If a beaten wife were free to divorce her abusive husband and remarry without being shunned…
If a gay Jehovah’s Witness were free to leave the religion and live according to their true self without being shunned…
If a Jehovah’s Witness was free to state that he felt the creation account of Genesis to be pure metaphor for the evolutionary process God set in motion without being shunned…
See? Without the threat of shunning, Jehovah’s Witnesses are free to genuinely make their own choices and live the lives they honestly think to be correct, instead of towing the line and flinching every time an Elder looks their way and flexes the “Shunning Stick.” Even if their choice means that the religion no longer considers them to be a member, that choice no longer costs them their family and friends.
Granted, relationships might alter if the family and friends are not broad minded enough to accept the change, but these relationships are not arbitrarily severed. And once shunning becomes a thing of the past, one can quite see Witnesses culture evolving with it, becoming more accepting of association with past members. Indeed, it would probably be instrumental in starting to erode the poisonous “us and them” mentality that Watchtower currently enforces upon its flock. The “information control” that Watchtower enforces upon its congregations would likewise erode once those who left were free to discuss their reasons for doing so with those who remain in.
In the 21st century, religiously enforced shunning is inexcusable. It must go.
Mission Accomplished?
boxIf Watchtower were to enact the changes I have outlined, I would be content to cease my activism against them.
I would still consider their religion to be full of doctrines and beliefs that I consider to be utterly without merit, but they would no longer be a harmful cult; they would simply be another religion whose doctrines a person was free to research, accept, or discard of their own free will.
Granted, it may well be hard to envisage a situation where such reforms took place within the Organisation. It may will be that such harmful doctrines continue to feature front and centre of Watchtower policy until the Organisation crumbles under the weight of legal and financial sanctions, public notoriety and a burnt out membership. Scientology is already going this way; Watchtower should take note.
Nonetheless, this is not my goal.
Whether this ignominious ending comes to pass is entirely down to Watchtower. I remain hopeful that legal, financial, and public pressure can in time make the Organisation cede some of the required ground in order to survive. Recent events have shown that the current leadership’s taste for public humiliation and hardship is significantly decreased. Russell and Rutherford used to face their opposers in public debates and in the courts. Today’s Governing Body flee in panic from both, and when forced to appear in public court they put in a performance that bespeaks a distinct lack of capability and vigour for the fight. Their PR attempts are weak willed and desperate for public adoration, and when placed under pressure their representatives react in a fearful, confused way.
Watchtower is on the wrong side of history in this battle, and lacks the stomach and the tools required to fight it. One way or another, it will lose.
Until then, whilst these damaging practices remain in place, my fellow activists and I are not going anywhere.
We have work to do.
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← The Friday Column: Leave no man behind
News Bulletin: Dutch reporter thrown out of District Convention →
171 Responses to The Friday Column: Why I don’t want to destroy Watchtower
Newer Comments →
Brother from Austria says:
May 13, 2016 at 1:50 pm
Thank you for your activities!
Reply
Rowland Nelken says:
May 13, 2016 at 1:52 pm
The pressure will continue. Watchtower’s policy of letting awkward stories die will not work. The tales of Watchtower abuses will continue to be aired via every medium available until Jehovah’s Witnesses are comprehensively reformed or disappear down history’s toilet.
Reply
Markie says:
May 13, 2016 at 1:52 pm
It seems to me you will be criticizing the Watchtower until you die or you get bored with it and move on with your life. They could careless what you or your fellow activists think or say. I am not saying this to cause an argument or inflame you have but you know that’s the truth.
Reply
Nullandvoidboy says:
May 13, 2016 at 2:14 pm
@ Markie….someone chooses the path of activism not for personal, emotional, satisfaction…. It’s to expose wrongs….that’s done with criticisms…. and the greater good that’s served is to bring out in the open, that which is hidden…. If intentions are correct, the activists do NOT get bored and “move on”…. So when you said, ” I didn’t say this to cause an argument or inflame”…..I need to ask you, are you really sure about that??… It seems that you don’t get what activism is about.
Reply
Winston Smith says:
May 13, 2016 at 3:20 pm
Valid points Nullandvoidboy. I live in the U.S.A. About 250 years ago my forefathers had an issue with the King of England. They were activists. The King could care less what they said. But their activism was valid and vital and sparked a new age of freedom.
150 years ago in my land, millions of people were enslaved based on the color of their skin. Some people thought this was wrong. They became activists and got things to change.
Markie, you seem to state that activism is pointless because the oppressors don’t care about the oppressed. But isn’t that always the case with oppressors? History shows that activism works.
I’ll leave this thread with two quotes that I especially appreciate that can be applied to this situation:
1.) The only thing needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
2.) The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who claim neutrality in times of moral crisis.
WS
Reply
Ethan says:
May 14, 2016 at 8:55 am
@Winston Smith.
Your well thought out comments and two points at the end have me slack jawed and shaking my head… I’ll be thinking about what you said all day. Thank you, sincerely.
Oh and, umm (clearing throat and pulling on collar)..
Covert Fade! As always, great article..
Reply
Markie says:
May 13, 2016 at 4:00 pm
When you have 8 million people trying to convert people all over the globe. Spending millions of hours it’s going to continue to grow despite all its failings. In my congregation all the newer ones are all special needs people, easy to sway. I actually agree with most of what he said but he is not going to change anything. And I do think some day he will get bored with his activism. Sorry.
Reply
Covert Fade says:
May 13, 2016 at 4:34 pm
If I can help one person, it will have been worth it. Anything else is gravy 🙂
Reply
John ship says:
May 14, 2016 at 4:10 am
Your comments help me to stay sane..after 50 years in the org.all i can say is yes you are doing the right thing .you are giving hope to many that are hanging in WTs cage .who are woken up but still have family in .if WT was like other religions were you can question or just walk away fine .but is not .
Eric Arthur Blair says:
May 13, 2016 at 9:08 pm
Markie, those 8 million are welcome to keep trying to convert people, the point is, what are they converting them to? That’s what needs to change, as the article eloquently explains.
Did you see the movie “spotlight” by any chance? Was that investigative team of four wasting their time? I don’t think so. They couldn’t solve the whole problem, but they did affect change and accomplish some good. Did it bring down the Catholic Church? No, but it contributed to wider recognition of abuse and the systemic failures of the church. It also empowered the community to demand change, and gave some acknowledgement and (hopefully) healing for victims. That’s the point. And hopefully it makes the church more accountable and transparent, and more importantly, removes the policies and practices that perpetuate abuse long term.
Reply
Peter van der Brink says:
May 13, 2016 at 9:38 pm
Am a JW still as member and critized very hard the policy of the GB. The elders gave me two times a so called “yellow card”without any Scriptural evidence that the GB are right. Bethel lawyers in Netherlands can not do nothing because when i am banned of given a free meaning in the Kingdom Hall( WT study) my lawyer shall bring them to court. Am baptized and never shall obey the GB today.Am even visit the Seventh Day Adventist, they are acting much more adult than the blockheaded and scared looking JWs. Free meaning is important so even faith and not fear…
Reply
ronnyb says:
May 15, 2016 at 1:45 am
@ markie, we no longer live in the dark ages, 1940- 1975. Nowadays people do research on automobiles, houses, schools ,hospitals and religions are no exception. In the old days,people were gullible and accept almost any preachings that would incite fear into them. No longer the case. People now research articles like this one and draw intelligent coclusions based on the foundations and history of certain religions, so this activist ,like you say, is giving people a perspective of the other side of the coin ,so he is not wasting his time and he is making sure people have a fair chance of making the best choice in their lives, unlike 70 years ago when people were coerced simply by fear.
Reply
M Saurus says:
May 16, 2016 at 9:14 am
Activism is not pointless, WS – agreed.
HOWEVER, these people are not slaves. They are not being held against their will. They have the free will and choice to GET OUT of this crazy org.
I know, they “can’t” because it’s too “painful” – they will lose their “friends”.
Seriously? Losing friends and so-called family is a reason to remain in a toxic, insane religion?
If all the people who claim they hate the WT but just “can’t” leave got out it would collapse.
Fooledmeonce says:
May 13, 2016 at 2:16 pm
The Watchtower and its followers DO VERY MUCH CARE what former members and activists have to say!!!
They will even find and subpoena former members who aren’t too angry or opposed to their religion.
This cult, like every other cult, relies on attracting new members. While I was in, it was well known among the elders and circuit Overseer’s that, “We bring them in the front door and push them out the back door.” The JWs constantly churn through new people but that is really slowing down with all of the bad publicity available to possible converts. This hurts them right where it counts.
This cult has an expiry date built into them. As 1914 fades into the distant past, and the scare tactics become stale, the cult will collapse in on itself. It may remain as some kind of shadow of itself but it won’t be anywhere nearly as powerful as it once was. It already is 10 years past its zenith and a much smaller, weaker organization of what it was just a decade ago.
Reply
Matias says:
May 13, 2016 at 3:02 pm
Smaller and weaker? Where did you get that from? I mean, I wish that’s true, but as far as I know they are growing in members at around %1.5 annually, which is slightly above the growth in population. And that figure is decreasing, but still growing in absolute numbers.
Reply
Eyes opened says:
May 13, 2016 at 4:38 pm
Hi Matias,
Not sure how long you’ve been with the organization. Myself over 40 yrs. before I recognized the truth about the truth. This is not the org it once was. Leadership has become increasingly weak. Their fear makes them threaten members and they make feeble attempts to spiritually bully the r & f. You now only need to push a button on a smart device to do your ministry. Might as well go back to the phonograph, you don’t need to know anything. Not that using our devices is bad, I love technology. But this simplified ministry doesn’t make us smarter. We still need to be able to defend our faith. I can’t do that with a button. We used to be considered weak if we didn’t get at least 10 hrs a month in the ministry. Notice they don’t publish that anymore. My guess is the average is probably below 7 or even less. You may see what seems like growth but the foundation holding things up is not so strong. The organization has gone back to needing milk and feeding us milk, no more solid food. Yes those of us who are pre-1975 have seen a lot of changes and I don’t think for the better.
Regards
Reply
Ian Howat says:
May 14, 2016 at 4:19 am
Agree with you after 50 years in i can see the weaknesses the younger jws cant defend the faith any more unless the got jw .org at their fingertips .the leadership has no dignity any more.they are robots..knorr franz and Rutherford had drive that these guys lack .look at the things they come out with . The tight pants is an example of spiritual bancruptcy .the WT studies are shallow and lacking substance even boring. .unless the bcome more like the old WT the rush to digital jws will shrink the org . They only keep the numbers up by the children getting to be unbaptised publishers…
dee2 says:
May 13, 2016 at 6:43 pm
As long as there is the belief that this world we live in is inherently defective, unimportant and worthy of destruction, and that divine intervention is going to bring about its passing and replace it with something better, whether in this dimension or in a supernatural one, the JWs will find converts.
Ever since the emergence of Jewish Apocalypticsm which anticipated that divine intervention would have ended the world over 2000 years ago, there have been those among Christianity who believe that the world will end during their lifetime.
This end of the world by means of divine intervention belief, has become a traditional cultural outlook which has embedded/cemented itself in the psyche of the western world. And so every generation that comes along has persons who believe that the world is going to end during their lifetime. Interestingly, however, the world has persistently refused to end.
Until this mindset is replaced with the realization that the world is our responsibility, and thus, if it should come to an end, even an apocalyptic one, it will be our own fault (apart from the sun imploding) then people will continue to believe otherwise and the JWs will find converts.
Reply
Markie says:
May 13, 2016 at 7:26 pm
Smaller? Weaker? I would say just the opposite. Not sure what you have been reading. Perhaps wishful thinking on your part?
Reply
dee2 says:
May 13, 2016 at 8:44 pm
Markie,
How do you know how many JWs there really worldwide?
How can you be sure about this?
Reply
Markie says:
May 14, 2016 at 5:00 am
Three new kingdumb halls have been built where I live in the past 4 or 5 years. And they all have two to three congregations meeting in them. So I would have to say there has to be some growth.
eeee says:
May 14, 2016 at 2:02 am
Well, let’s see what will happen. I sincerely pray God keeps me alive to see what these self serving organisation will turn to in say 40 years time.
But currently, their tactics has change greatly, it’s almost like they employed some sort of rebranding expert to help them. Today, they use technology, videos and small animation to feed their fantasy on most of their members and that you can see them nodding their heads in amazement.
And currently, their much emphasis on preaching, reporting is getting to much and even makes many to resent it. To many, though they don’t know, it seems like the WT has much to gain from this preaching and disciple making more than God himself.
At some point, a sister hissed that this videos at meetings is too much and I laugh. Maybe, at some point in time, they will be showing videos at all meetings, I don’t know.
Reply
Winston Smith says:
May 14, 2016 at 3:46 pm
The org is definitely evolving. Many of their tactics today are reminiscent of the televangelists (700 club and similar). When I was growing up in the cult, such tactics would have been poo-pooed as being too closely related to “false religion.” Maybe the new tactics indicate that they are getting ready to go more mainstream. We can only hope that their teachings and rules get more mainstream too.
WS
Reply
Big B says:
May 18, 2016 at 6:56 am
@Winston Smith,
Who cares if they “go more mainstream”? Personally speaking, I don’t care where they go. Hopefully, to the Millerite “Great Disappointment” oblivion they rightly deserve. There will always be a core remnant of knuckleheads (Sheeple) but I predict that the WTBTS will implode in my lifetime. I am 64 now. They’ve reached their zenith and are finished, nowhere to go but downhill!
Besides, I wouldn’t go back to that hypocritical, doomsday, pedophile protecting, Amway-sales cult if Jesus Christ came down and said to me personally to return (which he will never do).
If Armageddon is real, and not symbolic like the rest of Revelation, the Kingdom Hall would be the last place of refuge I would run to!
Gardian says:
May 14, 2016 at 5:33 am
They really could care less what these people think say or put on the internet.. the GB has been very good at paying them no mind whatsoever.. the most effective way to irritate and infuriate people.. is to treat them as of no account at all.. and the GB is very skilled at this.. so they can keep coming with their pressure… We’re not going anywhere!
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Average Joe says:
May 14, 2016 at 6:51 am
I’m sorry Markie but I have to agree with David Mitchell on this one. I can’t let your bad grammar slide. The correct phrase is “they COULD NOT care less about what…activists think.” If they COULD care less about it, that would imply that they DO care about what they say, even just a little bit.
Also the word is “care less”, two words in fact, and not “careless”, which means something completely different.
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Markie says:
May 14, 2016 at 10:35 am
Good for you! You must be so proud of yourself.
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Average Joe says:
May 14, 2016 at 2:20 pm
😉
All in good humour mate.
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Eric Arthur Blair says:
May 15, 2016 at 3:11 am
Haha, love it!
Markie says:
May 15, 2016 at 8:26 am
What a little prankster!
Chiafade says:
May 15, 2016 at 3:31 pm
Markie in response to your “they are growing comment” (which I find hilarious hahaha thanks for the laugh). 4 or 5 Kingdoms built in your area vs the 10 or so that have closed in my area with the congregations combining to fill up surrounding hall’s.
So using your stats and mine, which one seems the more likely? Unless you live in an impoverished country which is where the JW focus is right now. Growth in those countries is believable. But still not explosive which judging from your past comments is what you seem to imply. You may not like that but it’s true. Also, anything printed in the JW yearbook is HIGHLY suspect as it doesn’t take into account the VAST number of inactive. Plus it was written by watchtower. That equals lost credibility.
Now if you want an example of explosive growth look no further than the Protestant church in China. They are baptizing an average of 500,000 people a year. With a membership estimated to be up to 40 million.
The JW business model is a failure. They cannot sustain themselves indefinitely using their current system. Add to that annual lawsuits that seem to be growing and you can easily see a finite future.
Please don’t be silly. Of course Watchtower cares what the apostates say. I have several gb member talks. In one of them Tony Morris makes a quote from the silent lambs website almost word for word. He never states where he got it from but it was easy to find because he was speaking about silent lambs. He called them “an apostate organization that throws bloody Teddy bears at kingdom halls”. To quote Daniel Sydlik (former gb) when a bethelite found a very spiritistic book in the bethel library : ” you can’t write about it if you don’t read about it”. Indeed Mr. Sydlik.
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Markie says:
May 16, 2016 at 8:50 am
Thanks for returning the favor. “Your status vs mine”? Really? If you want a real laugh reread what you wrote. I think you might wet yourself with laughter!
Lets go with your stats! Those JWs are nothing but liars and your stats are nothing but the truth.
Could you please indulge me and give me the addresses of the ten kingdom halls that have closed in your area? It would really help when I quote your “stats”. I would give you the addresses of the new kingdom halls in my area but what would that accomplish since we know your “stats” are the absolute truth.
PeterB says:
May 13, 2016 at 2:07 pm
@CovertFade Your arguments are totally valid. I totally agree with your article.
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Vox Populi says:
May 13, 2016 at 2:17 pm
I want to congratulate you, Covert Fade, on another excellent article.
If the creator has given us a conscience, then why shouldn’t we as individuals have the freedom to live our lives according to our conscience and not be penalised for it.
I look forward to reading your future articles.
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Paul Small says:
May 13, 2016 at 2:23 pm
Terrific Article @covertfade I whole heartedly concur
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JBob says:
May 13, 2016 at 2:35 pm
Some matters are not open for debate; the blood issue did thaw somewhat but like many other Wt matters, the ultra-conservatives and hardliners seem to have slammed the door on being progressive. The gay thing–especially now with a spotlight on pedophilia, the gays are being used as a scapegoat, or “red herring”–if they’re anti-gay, the public will cease believing they’re possibly sheltering pedophiles. This is disgusting and bigotry as pedophilia is not the same as homosexuality.
Another point I’ve noticed in scanning the horizon of dissenters and those who are booted or rejected, some come from very hardline conservative denominations and would expect nothing less in terms of strict morality codes. Typically, persons in more progressive religions would listen to JW’s and express empathy for freedom of expression but wouldn’t be inclined to have this structure imposed on their lives.
So change from the top meets resistance (more rebellion in the ranks, even splintering) from below as the momentum of “what we have taught over the years” collides with “how we’d like to transform what we taught and believe”. The history in Raymond Franz’ memoirs is an example of this–the progressive changes he and others were guiding the Watchtower to make ran into the resistance of the ultra-conservatives and conservatives.
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Matias says:
May 13, 2016 at 2:53 pm
I think you have omitted the worst thing they do: spreading ignorance and a distorted view of reality
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Jerry Lahjalahti says:
May 13, 2016 at 2:59 pm
No, no I cant agree.
Without:
Child abuse
Blood Transfusions
Shunning
What’s there left of the Watchtower???
False prophecies?
Fear of Armageddon?
Giving up your retirement plans for knocking on doors whole your life?
NO, besides the arguments. The Watchtower is a dangerous cult. And it must FALL.
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JBob says:
May 16, 2016 at 4:47 pm
@Jerry I see where you may feel that the Watchtower as a dangerous group should lead everyone to evacuate or avoid joining, but since they hold families hostage, and have been dropping large hints regarding shunning being only way to be an “ideal JW” [so you too can have a Memorial/Funeral service as a JW in “good standing” at the KH (like Bro. Nelson and unlike former Bro. Jackson)], fact is they will always have a base population–smaller or larger, perhaps frustrated and gagged, but some followers.
If Pastor Russell can still garner a core of hardline followers, I see a future where the Watchtower perhaps at reduced and minimal existence has adherents. In the Burned Over District near to where JW’s evolved, there is an example in the Shakers which once were numerous, yet today are nearly extinct. Nearly extinct, because there are still some persons who gravitate toward this obscure group.
One issue JW’s have which was revealed in a mocking documentary is that JW dogma doesn’t foster settling down to create a family. I can hear the grumbling already–settle!–yes, JW’s do have families, and children, but pay close attention to the training material coming out. For instance, the previous year’s “What Is True Love?” video. Examine it closely, does it offer a guide to coping with any issues deriving from family life or is it laying out an ideal life pattern which few will be able to achieve and sustain? It’s the latter.
This is why when heavy-duty issues are taken in for counseling before the elders and MS bodies, you get light counseling: advise to study more, take the issue to Jehovah in prayer (pray for what?), etc. Rarely are individuals given practical advice on using coping skills to overcome difficult issues or dealing with individuals, or how to seek strong secular therapy, medical treatment or marital counseling. In the video released last year, once more psychology and marital counselors are portrayed with a deprecating view.
Resourceful videos for the skeptics among us:
“Selling God” and “Waiting for Armageddon” (seek and ye shall find, knock and the door will open..)
Mirror of JW videohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aC4LLNWctxg
Typical secular advice on finding lovehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QH8pzfcgu3o
Interesting (yet rambling) interview with son of JW’s who escaped [take away: make a plan before you step away from home (& JW’s)]
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Sharon says:
May 13, 2016 at 3:17 pm
I believe in religious freedom, but this is a cult. The WTBTS is a money making publishing company and the leaders are getting rich off the slave labor of the masses of cult members (publishers) who put money in the donation boxes so the literature will keep coming and they scurry around like a bunch of worker bees distributing that literature and trying their best to recruit new worker bees to do the same.
All the abuses are for the purpose of getting and keeping publishers and bringing in wealth for the leaders. You can’t get rid of these abuses and leave the cult. Even if you could get rid of the current abuses, new ones would crop up because they serve a purpose.
We’re not talking about a religion but a money making cult.
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Markie says:
May 13, 2016 at 7:38 pm
Your comment is kind of ridiculous. A lot of people say it’s a publishing company designed to make its leaders rich. I don’t see where any of the leaders are accumulating wealth. They are just a bunch of uneducated guys thinking they are doing right. The only perk they get is to occasionally fly around the world like rock stars. Yes the have sold off Brooklyn but they just put the money back in the contaminated site at Warick. I don’t see them sport new cars, nice suits etc….They have to keep plugging away at bethel or they will get their arses kicked out with nothing like so many others.
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dee2 says:
May 13, 2016 at 8:46 pm
Markie,
How do you know what the true financial position of the WT is?
Have you ever seen an audited financial statement from the WT?
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Markie says:
May 14, 2016 at 5:03 am
I would have to say your guess is as good as mine.
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Big B says:
May 14, 2016 at 7:44 am
Hi Markie;
Here is a site to show how J.W.’s account for some of their monies collected at circuit assembly’s. It’s entitled “Why is there always a Deficit at the Circuit Assembly of Jehovah’s Witnesses?”https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APb1RpfjCrA
Very informative video as is this Friday Column. 🙂
Winston Smith says:
May 14, 2016 at 3:56 pm
You also have to keep in mind that’s it’s not all about money. It is also about POWER. Having power over others is like a drug and once you get a taste of it, you often want more.
Another fact to consider is that the organization has become an entity unto itself. It seeks to self perpetuate which necessitates the constant publishing. Since about 1/2 of all converts end up leaving, it constantly needs fresh blood to replenish itself.
WS
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Christopher says:
May 13, 2016 at 3:19 pm
Great artical however until the current GB die off I don’t see any change forth coming maybe they will just implode from the pressure that would be just fine with me.
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Katydid says:
May 13, 2016 at 3:22 pm
Very well put! Add in post-secondary education & include conscience-driven family celebrations, & I would be happy. It sounds so simple, and Christian, doesn’t it, without labeling people? The practices you described have all but destroyed my large & beautiful family in multiple ways, and has left me feeling friendless & abandoned. But the Watchtower has stated they will not change, so I don’t know if there is any hope. Keep on writing & speaking out, please, as truth is important.
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Winston Smith says:
May 13, 2016 at 3:29 pm
Valid article Covert Fade. While I agree that these issues need to change, I think that they are symptoms of a larger problem. These issues stem from the GB’s belief that they are spirit-directed by God and have cornered the market on biblical truth. This sense of elitism, leads them to believe that there is nothing wrong with enforcing harmful policies on the rank and file members. What it comes down to is a matter of humility, which they entirely lack. Furthermore they have become accustomed to the power they wield and of course power corrupts.
As Ray Franz brought out, the GB are captives of their own concepts in regard to their organization. This is why I believe it is unlikely that they will change on their own. External political and financial pressures could potentially help force some changes to be made. But I don’t think that a full change will occur without some truly spectacular circumstances.
As I mention above, this does not invalidate your activism. Activism is both necessary and vital to bring about change. But I would look for change to be initiated from factors external to the organization rather than internal ones.
WS
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Eric Arthur Blair says:
May 13, 2016 at 9:28 pm
I completely agree Winston.
Yes, fantastic article covert fade, outstanding reasoning and very balanced. But the top of the list for me is their claim to be the one true religion, appointed and directed by Holy Spirit. I think everything flows from there, especially the policies you outline which, ironically, also disprove that claim (along with their false predictions and false teachings.) I guess the distinction you make is between what people believe and what they do, and I agree that they can believe (and claim) what they want, but the harmful policies need to change, even if their bs doesn’t.
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Ren says:
May 13, 2016 at 4:01 pm
Amen, Covert Fade
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Charles Huff says:
May 13, 2016 at 4:05 pm
Very well said.
Why do you chose to “Covert Fade” yet call yourself an “activist”?
Do what you want, but activism means being front and center. If I’m wrong the ones you love have no idea you feel the way you do, is that “activism”?
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Covert Fade says:
May 13, 2016 at 4:39 pm
Yep. Activism is about what you do, not about exactly who knows you’re doing it 🙂
(Besides, right now I can probably do more this way in some areas. Sometimes subtlety gets more done than a full frontal assault 😉 )
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Mama Joy says:
May 13, 2016 at 4:12 pm
The problem is that everything they believe IS HARMFULL to others.
Afterlife- they believe in genocide for nearly all except them.
Blood- no blood even to children to save their life.
Disfellowshipping- shunning and abandoning family members which divides families.
Holidays- no holidays to have fun and share in Christ’s birth.
Memorial- is the same ritual in a Satanic Black Mass by passing the body and blood of Christ.
God- their belief in an unforgiving fearful God that punishes and judges Jehovahs Witnesses.
Control- elders need to be asked before a party or major decision outside of the hall.
Abuse- children victims go to elders for help and protection but instead they are told to hide it.
Door to door work- Jesus specifically says NOT to go from door to door, but rather go to a house where you are wanted and stay there awhile teaching that house the good news in exchange for room and board then when you are not wanted leave and shake the dust off.
Prostlatizing- they do not spread the good news that Jesus death erased our sins, instead they peddle magazines for a publishing company.
Slaves- they are made to work for free. I say made because if you don’t then you aren’t considered that spiritual.
Brainwash- brainwashing happens when a group or individual says “it’s not me telling you to do this, it’s God telling you”. So if you don’t do it then you aren’t listening to God or “Gods Organization”.
Obey- you MUST obey, or risk losing family, friends, work acquaintances, etc who are JWs. You CANNOT question elders decision without risking disfellowshipping over questioning “Gods Authority”.
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Bad Penny says:
May 14, 2016 at 3:35 am
Mama Joy – Well said.
Sorry, Covert Fade, I want them GONE, not just reformed. The world without JWs or any religion would be a better place, I think, but “maybe I’m a dreamer, but I’m not the only one” …… Imagine, J. Lennon.
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Jeffreycanning says:
May 13, 2016 at 4:17 pm
You might not want WT destroyed, but I am sure there are many like me who hate them like the plague… If you had your family torn assunder by shunning and felt the pain of your children treating you as though you never happened to be you too might want the orginisation destroyed…
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Covert Fade says:
May 13, 2016 at 4:35 pm
Totally get the pain. Not suggesting for one moment that anyone who has been mauled by the Cult is wrong for wanting to see it gone. A world without Watchtower would indeed be a better world, but I don’t know what the chances of 8 million JW’s suddenly apostatising are. Much better chance of the leadership being forced to moderate some things to dodge a legal and financial kicking.
Sorry to hear you’ve had a rough time. Genuinely hope you’re doing okay.
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Eyes opened says:
May 13, 2016 at 4:44 pm
This is an excellent article. You have expressed views my husband and I are totally on board with. Thanks for your thoughtful article.
Regards
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Alice says:
May 13, 2016 at 4:46 pm
Hate the religion but not the members. They are what Christ described, they are tossed about by wolves in sheep’s clothing. Something like that. I forgot how that saying goes. JW Disfellowshipping and disassociation is used as emotional blackmail.
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HaveATallOne says:
May 13, 2016 at 5:27 pm
@Alice, The phrase originates in a sermon by Jesus recorded in the Christian New Testament: Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves (Gospel of Matthew 7:15, King James Version). The other verse you are thinking of may be at Ephesians 4:14, it reads, Then we will no longer be infants, tossed about by the waves and carried around by every wind of teaching and by the clever cunning of men in their deceitful scheming
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HaveATallOne says:
May 13, 2016 at 5:31 pm
Thank you, HaveATallOne. I got the two mixed up.
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Eric Arthur Blair says:
May 13, 2016 at 9:48 pm
You are right though Alice, I knew many beautiful people over the last 20 years. I fit into that third category – faded, but effectively shunned. I’ve lost all my friendships, which is disappointing. They won’t call me because they are frightened of what they will hear and they know they will never win a scriptural debate with me. I feel sorry for them because I know they are held captive, but it’s tough rebuilding your life and I wouldn’t wish what I’ve been through these last two years on anybody. That said, I know that they are all going to have to face their own mortality in this system and the realisation that everything they were promised was false. And I hope I can still be there for them.
In the meantime, I wish Watchtower would come clean and admit that they are not spirit inspired but just a bunch of men trying to fathom a, quite frankly, confusing and unfathomable book. That way at least people might have time to adjust; to think for themselves again and truly exercise their free will. And they would hopefully be there to support one another through the transition, agree to disagree where they do, and accept those who chose their own path without recrimination or disdain.
I live in hope, but like my old CO told me, a fish rots from the head down. He was more right than he knew, and it’s the own true thing he taught. A bit like Geoffrey Jackson at the ARC, he swore to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, but the only true word he spoke was when he admitted that it was presumptuous of them to claim to be gods spokesperson on Earth.
But it’s the sheep that suffer, like you say. My parting words to the body of elders I was serving on, which was mired in petty politics, backstabbing and nepotism, was to remind them that they were wolves in shepherds clothing.
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Markie says:
May 14, 2016 at 5:09 am
I would love to ask old Geoffrey what he meant by his presumptuous remark.
Peter van der Brink says:
May 13, 2016 at 9:30 pm
Very good written !
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Maria F. says:
May 13, 2016 at 4:49 pm
Great, Great, Article..
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Sharon Christensen says:
May 13, 2016 at 6:55 pm
Excellent article! Unlike the heavy burden and control .. JW.org puts upon it’s believers….Jesus said His yoke kindly, load light…and all that is epected of us is to show love to one another… Love moves ones like you to care enough for people to continue on with the activist work against the Wt….it must be done out of love and care cuz it is no easy task…thankyou to you Covert, and all who make this a part of their life. Jw survey is a something to look forward to each week…thanx to you and all who make a difference in many of our lives who have suffered from the horrors of Jw.org. Keep up the good work…thankyou sooo much!
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Peter van der Brink says:
May 13, 2016 at 9:28 pm
Watchtower = Jehovah. The Governing Body not need to explain the history, 1914,1919 and all failed claims or mistakes.Millions died with a given hope from Watchtower teachings. Deut. 18:22 shows that the Watchtower organisation shall be destroyd as Babylon .They claim the name of God, other religions do not. Further the arrogance of the GB is even a big problem, so there is nothing left. Maybe from inside a coup is coming to replace the 7 of Brooklyn and finish the North Korean Propaganda machine of http://www.jw.org
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Sarah says:
May 13, 2016 at 11:41 pm
WT’s secret policies should be stopped. Members have the right to know which rules they are being judged by. The Scribes and Pharisees had a large list of their own rules. These were not secret but the practice of extra rules made the Pharisees come under the worst condemnation from Christ (Matt 23). It was worse than his comments on other sins. So, create extra rules and then keep them secret – that surely has to be the worst sin ever.
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Concorde says:
May 14, 2016 at 4:51 am
The problem with the GB saying they are the faithful and discreet slave results in the r&f adhering to everything they say and when doctrine is changed, the excuse is that there is new light. Checking the internet is viewed as apostasy so, as the ARC said, JWs are a captive audience. God’s teachings are confused with the teachings of the GB but it is the GB that demands obedience even though “some things cannot be understood at the time”. How’s that for mind control?
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Jeffreycanning says:
May 14, 2016 at 4:56 am
Getting too serious, time for a larf… Our overseer late 1974. “This is probably the last talk I will give in this system of things…” – Born in 16 yr old. “Where will we all live during the thousand year rain???. – Middle aged 20 yr dubs baby sitting for us one night… “No we weren’t bored, we watched a lovely bible movie on TV” Checked the TV guide when they left… ‘Ben Hur’. – M/S. “It will be good when those ancient ‘Christians’ like Moses and Noah get resurrected wont it..! And he had three bible studies going… Sorry couldn’t help it…
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Markie says:
May 14, 2016 at 5:29 am
What makes me laugh is when people say that jehovah needs those new buildings in Warwick for the new system. In reply I always say “really with all the buildings all over the world, Jehovah needs those ones specifically? Enough to take people away from the preaching work to build them when we are deep in to the time of the end?” They usually don’t know how to respond.
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Twmack says:
May 14, 2016 at 5:31 am
Some well reasoned points CF and I fully support freedom
Of choice, But I cannot look at that Awake cover,
“Youths who put God first”, and not want this foul, sickening
Quasi religion completely obliterated.
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David M. says:
May 14, 2016 at 5:39 am
I just wanted to make a correction to one of your points. If a JW unrepentantly accepts a blood transfusion he is considered to have disassociated himself after an investigation is made by a committee (but not a judicial one). This change was made in 2000 so WT could claim there are no sanctions against JWs who take blood. Bulgaria was instrumental in forcing them to make this change.
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Tilli says:
May 16, 2016 at 2:04 am
That’s right. They simply assign new terms to the same things. You get investigated and judged by a committee of three elders, yet this is not called a judicial committee. If they consider you unrepentant and they will tell your congregation that you’re no longer one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Yet, you’re not disfellowshipped, but you have left the organization yourself. Fantastic. But one great difference is there: As you are considered to have disassociated yourself, you’re unable to appeal the decision. In the end, with this new treatment you’re in a worse position than before.
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ruthlee says:
May 14, 2016 at 5:50 am
Well done Mr C this was so well written and the points you made I can only say Hear Hear!. Well as always i do have something to say. I’m not talking to athiests but those of us who have a belief in god are actually disappointed in our religion. We do not want to defect or apostasize or abandon our core. but we inevitably have to because despite the profession of being god’s spirit directed org and having the audacity to use god’s alleged name in their title They do not have any authenticity left. They do not adhere to the bible, the gospel of jesus or Christianity. They do not entitle them selves Christian either.It is only a matter of time before a genuine seeker of jesus or a bible reader will abandon jehovahs witnesses because it is fraudulent. The stupid policies you so eloquently wrote about are the politics of their confused ideas and nothing to do with god , jesus, or the bible. So my point is that even if they rescinded all the cultish behaviour and false doctrine they still wont represent god they will still be in error and still doomed to blindness and failure. Someone made the point that the only ones coming in are special needs or in my vocabulary, wierdos deadbeats and dropouts or children under a certain age. (sorry that’s a bit nasty). But it may grow but there is no success because it is only poor people and the dim who will be attracted to this way of life or the terminally bored who cannot think of anything better to do with their time. It is all a bit of a damp squib really and on my better days quite amusing to see the demise. That in no way to minimise the hurt and pain of victims but really this was a terrible cult to have been associated with and were we not so foolish? So I say keep up the activism it is a light shining on a dark place. Cheers Ruthlee.
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Eyes opened says:
May 14, 2016 at 6:24 am
I would like to share a point to consider…several comments have to do with growth of the organization seen in membership numbers and construction of new halls and so on. My personal view is that this is not an educational/publishing organization…it is a real estate conglomerate. They own property throughout the globe. They have “forgiven” all Kingdom Hall debts, in other words thanks for the property. Oh now you owe us rent. The new halls etc., being built are built with free labor and designed to be attractive to potential commercial buyers. Don’t be fooled by all the building work. These buildings will be sold as needed to keep the numbers up, in their finances that is. Their investment in these beautiful halls is greatly reduced because of all the willing volunteers. Imagine the profit if a building is sold. How manipulative to take advantage of honest hearted ones who think they are doing this for God and fellow believers. Just some personal conclusions I’ve come to.
Regards
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Big B says:
May 14, 2016 at 8:02 am
@Eyes opened;
Bingo! Check out new purchase in Florida!
http://gotoby.com/news/article/2245/Watchtower-Buys-Former-FAA-Training-Facility-in-Palm-Coast-for-$7025000
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Gary says:
May 14, 2016 at 8:44 am
Terrible weather Florida has.
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JBob says:
May 16, 2016 at 4:49 pm
Settles it, they are a bunch of “space cadets”…
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Sval says:
May 14, 2016 at 8:55 am
Wow! That is a valid point. Never thought about that.
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John ship says:
May 14, 2016 at 9:34 am
New light to come .go back to small groups in homes because the GT is almost upon us..dint neen many elders as all talks are videos from the .org. …now sell off ALL kingdom halls because we need money to help the needy during the GT…
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John Plummer says:
May 14, 2016 at 6:24 am
The writer of this article makes some interesting points but the bottom line is that the Watchtower Society is an organization that counsels its members who have very sick children to deny permission for essential blood transfusions. To take your own life because of a religious belief is tragic (and stupid) but to effectively kill a child because of somebody else’s interpretation of something written in an ancient book… is pure wickedness.
The writer also ignores how there must now be many thousands of current and ex J.W’s now living in abject poverty because they trusted their leaders’ promises that they would be part of that 1914 generation that “will not pass away” and they therefore made no financial provision for their old age.
The Watchtower Society is surely one of the most despicable scams on this planet and the sooner it is put out of business… the better!
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Jeffreycanning says:
May 14, 2016 at 3:07 pm
That’s what I like tp hear… bravo
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KAY GH says:
May 14, 2016 at 7:43 am
Thank you. Am just drafting my resignation letter at the cafe, after a year of finding the truth behind the watch tower and it’s doctrine through your medium and jwfacts.com i have decided to leave. my last meeting as a JW was on 12/05/2016. Can’t continue in this cult anymore.
Because of my association with the WT ORG, my sister who happens to be the only surviving sibling i have since our parents died before i turned Ten, has disowned me. Worse of all is i stop enrolling as a systems and network engineer because of WT ORG’s policy on higher education. Am out of work but still applying as an electrician because i have been trained as one and would be glad to use the knowledge i acquired while mixing and controlling cameras at regional conventions in broadcasting.
Thank you for setting me free. Veritas Liberat!_John 8:32
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JBob says:
May 16, 2016 at 4:54 pm
“Worse of all is i stop enrolling as a systems and network engineer because of WT ORG’s policy on higher education.”
Curious, who told you getting a network engineering training would be “higher education”?
Once more, a zone of confusion because Watchtower throws out edicts but doesn’t often crystallize or quantify what is considered “higher education”–high school graduation? vocational courses that aren’t available in high school? community college courses? a DIY course at a local hardware store?
In this fog of war, everyone is trembling in fear before the Watchtower–afraid to do and afraid not to do.
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Telescopium says:
May 14, 2016 at 8:11 am
Fun fact:
The February 2017 Watchtower (Study Edition) on apostasy is now being researched by the Writing Dept. They’re planning on using a quote from this article by Covert Fade as follows:
“My goal is… to destroy the Watchtower organisation and convince every Jehovah’s Witness on the planet to leave the religion.”
Just kidding…
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Big B says:
May 14, 2016 at 10:43 am
Hello to all,
It is my firm belief/opinion that the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society will morph into something else because of the bad branding the organization has received as of late.
If all properties, holdings, etc. are under a new name (say JW.org) and the WTBTS ceases to exist or disappears (as in bankruptcy) would not the child molestation cases against the WTBTS disappear as well?
I can also envision further reductions in printing with the “Awake!” and the “WatchTower” magazines being pulled from the public distribution or phased out altogether. Study lessons or information (Kingdom Ministry) to be available on-line to be printed out by you at your cost.
Just wondering out loud. I agree wholeheartedly with this article. WTBTS implosion is definitely immanent, it’s just a matter of time.
“You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time.” –credited to Abraham Lincoln 16th President of the United States.
Reply
Adam Heckathorn says:
May 14, 2016 at 12:56 pm
I haven’t read all the comments but I think one point should be taken to heart. I have been surprised by how many have told me that although they attend meetings and even go out in the ministry they don’t believe it, any of it. The local Elders where I live in Moorhead MN have demonstrated by their actions that they don’t really believe it, at least not all of it. I think we would be surprised how many just go
along with it to avoid consequences. I think the governing body is well aware of this hence the severe consequences to control the behavior of the masses.
Reply
Frankie's Market says:
May 14, 2016 at 2:25 pm
This article contains reasonable demands for the WT. But the shunning policy will never dropped. As the writer for the article states, many of the JW beliefs and scriptural interpretations are faulty, if not total nonsense. The practice of shunning is crucial for the GB to keep the rank-and-file in line. If active publishers were freely allowed to associate with so-called apostates, their minds will finally be exposed to ideas and lines of reasoning that was previously kept off limits by WT propaganda. Before you know it, you will have many of the rank-and-file questioning WT teachings to their elders. The elders, in turn, would have a heck of a time defending WT doctrine and predictions that have proven false over the years. Really, the only means of keeping the flock in line has been to get the rank-and-file to swallow and accept WT teachings on faith, not reasoning. And the tool for elders to rein in those who would have the audacity to question even a smidgen of doctrine would be to threaten DF’ing and shunning. That is why you are not likely to see the GB ease up on the shunning policy. For them to do so would be to take a step towards the disintegration of the JW organization where a small group of men in Brooklyn (the GB and their helpers) wield the power of God over 8 million followers. Who among here thinks that those men are going to voluntarily give up their exalted status? Not a chance of that happening, if you ask me. They are drunk with power and enjoying every minute of their ego trip.
Reply
Bad Penny says:
May 15, 2016 at 4:31 pm
Frankie’s Market –
Excellent points. I agree that the WT shunning policy has to remain to keep the rank and file in their place.
After all, wouldn’t we all love a chance to discuss things freely with former associates without them feeling threatened.
The brothers who continue to be blinded by the ‘light’ will inevitably remain in the dark.
Reply
TeraG says:
May 14, 2016 at 6:01 pm
Wow! Love this article. My thoughts exactly! Thank you covert fade, very well written
Reply
Ready 4 to Fade says:
May 14, 2016 at 7:34 pm
https://www.change.org/p/united-states-attorney-general-investigate-the-watchtower-society-of-jehovah-s-witnesses-re-child-sexual-abuse?recruiter=373488240
Reply
Ready 4 to Fade says:
May 14, 2016 at 7:38 pm
This is for anyone who missed the post in Cedar’s Twitter feed. It’s a great way to anonymously have your voice heard.
Reply
enuffsenuff says:
May 14, 2016 at 7:57 pm
I was reading your comments Winston Smith and I have to agree, POWER is the drug. In fact Jesus prophecy Math24;48-9 says “But if ever that evil slave should say in his heart, ‘My master is delaying,’ 49 and should start to beat his fellow slaves and should eat and drink with the confirmed drunkards”. I don’t believe he was talking about literal drunkards. Men in particular have the problem of being drunk with power, why else would billionaire Trump run for the US Presidency? The pay packet is not in his class of earnings.
And Markie keep up the good work in saying what the current reality is with regards to WT thinking. They GB do indulge themselves a little when it comes to rings, watches and expensive well tailored suits- but then again don’t all televangelists?
A dislike of the WT doesn’t mean others wont like them and support them (not me) but I like your comments.
Reply
MamaJane says:
May 14, 2016 at 8:08 pm
I ABSOLUTELY HATE THIS RELIGION! IDIOTS!
Reply
Garrett says:
May 14, 2016 at 8:54 pm
Please put my name down for those who wish to destroy this cult, genocide the members and cut the throats of all the Governing Body live on Pay Per View.
Reply
Outandabout says:
May 15, 2016 at 1:31 am
Now that’s a bit harsh, Garret, but I understand your sentiment.
The words ‘Jehovah’ and ‘Watchtower’, to me, are now toxic and I loathe them. I would love to see the GB arrested for crimes against humanity, and if they’re are so keen for Armageddon to come about and be transported back to the bronze age, they should be granted that wish. The Watchtower building should be demolished, ring fenced, and then the GB put to work with hammers from dawn til dusk, breaking up the rubble while being pelted with stones by any of the abused who wish to do so. The GB are showing no quarter, so none should be shown. They have blood on their hands and must pay.
I understand and agree with Covert on one level, and the rank and file are not to blame of course, but on another level…….
Reply
Markie says:
May 15, 2016 at 11:59 am
Gosh, it sounds like you have been shown some loving counsel by some spirit appointed elder in the past.
Reply
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← The Friday Column: Leave no man behind
News Bulletin: Dutch reporter thrown out of District Convention →
The Friday Column: Why I don’t want to destroy Watchtower
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Posted on May 13, 2016
Kcj48ABcqI don’t want to bring down the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society.
That might have a couple of you blinking in suprise. If you are one of Jehovah’s Witnesses reading this, you may have been told that so called “apostates” want nothing more than to destroy your organisation, and wipe your faith from the surface of the planet.
If you are an ExJW, you might think that someone who spends as much time as I do criticising Watchtower behaviour and policy must have the total destruction of the religion as an endgame.
Well, I don’t.
I believe that religious freedom is a fundamental human right, and that people should be free to believe whatever they want to believe. I disagree with virtually every doctrine held by Jehovah’s Witnesses, but I will defend utterly their right to believe them.
I draw the line, however, when religious doctrines directly call for behaviour that is actively harmful to others.
Thus we come to the point.
My goal is not to destroy the Watchtower organisation and convince every Jehovah’s Witness on the planet to leave the religion.
My goal is to force Watchtower to abandon specific practices that are causing significant harm to other human beings by bringing these practices to the attention of Governments, the media, the general public, and in some cases Jehovah’s Witnesses themselves.
What specific practices are these? I will outline them below, and state the specific conditions Watchtower must achieve in order for me to consider the matter resolved. I do not speak for JW Survey, or for my fellow activists in this matter. These are my personal opinions, and my person criteria for “Mission Accomplished” as regards my activism towards Watchtower.
Child abuse policies
Geoffrey Jackson appeared before the Australian royal commission to answer to concerns over child abuse mishandling
Geoffrey Jackson appeared before the Australian royal commission to answer to concerns over child abuse mishandling
I believe that no organisation can ever have a perfect record when it comes to handling child sexual abuse, and that it is absurd to pretend otherwise.
People are imperfect, systems break down, and sometimes, despite all best efforts from a religious community, a predator will enter the flock and attack a child.
But there is a big difference between a few bad apples slipping through robust safeguards despite the diligent best efforts of an organisation on the one hand, and a systemic failure from the top down to tackle an abuse problem that is a well known problem internally, but is carefully hidden from the outside world on the other.
As has been shown again and again, in open court, in government investigations, and in multiple documentaries, the policies that Jehovah’s Witnesses use to handle allegations of child sexual abuse are not only ineffectual, they are actively dangerous and harmful, both to the abuse survivor and the surrounding community.
The “two witness” rule. The policy of not reporting molesters to the police unless legally required to do so. The traumatising Judicial Committee process that sees a vulnerable victim forced to give harrowing details of their abuse to a star-chamber comprised of three untrained men.
All of these factors combine to create an environment that the Australian Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sex abuse found placed the children of Jehovah’s Witnesses at “significant risk of sexual abuse,” and extends to affect the children of non-Witness parents sharing a community with an unreported abuser.
What is even worse is that most Witnesses are in the dark as to the details of these policies, and also to the scathing criticism these policies have been subjected to. They only see the casual dismissals by the Governing Body, who then warn Witnesses to flee from any news report or comment that shows the organisation in a bad light, and have no idea how prevalent child abuse actually is within their religion, or how vulnerable their children really are.
This situation cannot be allowed to stand.
◾Watchtower needs to be forced (via legal and financial penalties if needs be) to bring their worldwide child protection policies into line with what legal professionals and child psychologists believe to be “Best Practice” to safeguard children and prosecute molesters.
◾Watchtower needs to admit past flaws in its policies, compensate and apologise to abuse survivors, and openly do the above in full view of its membership.
Blood Transfusions
I believe that an adult Jehovah’s Witness has the right to refuse a blood transfusion.
Surprised? You shouldn’t be. I believe that a mature adult has the right to decide what happens to their own body. A mature adult has the right to refuse any and all medical treatment they so wish, even if this results in their death. I may consider their reasons foolish and absurd, but I respect the right of a mature adult to make this decision for themselves.
However, at present, Jehovah’s Witnesses are not making this choice of their own free will. Every Jehovah’s Witness facing this choices knows that, should they choose to accept a transfusion and live, they may face a Judicial Committee. Should they be unable to convince three Elders that they are sufficiently repentant for taking blood and staying alive, they will be disfellowshipped.
It is hard to argue, therefore, that Jehovah’s Witnesses currently refusing blood are doing so without coercion. No one should be made to choose between death on the one hand, and life without their family and friends on the other.
◾Watchtower needs to make it clear that there will be no official or unofficial sanction should an adult Witness decide to accept a transfusion.
Additionally, every year, Jehovah’s Witness parents place the lives of their children at risk by refusing life saving medical treatment for their children on purely religious grounds.
The infamous issue of Awake that celebrated the deaths of Witness children who died due to Watchtower’s policy on blood.
This practice is actively encouraged by Watchtower, who once printed an article celebrating children who had died needlessly due their parents refusal of treatment. Additionally, any parent who disobeys Watchtower’s instructions may face discipline from the congregation, and possible shunning.
A child is not capable of giving rational, informed consent in this matter; especially not one who has been raised all their life subjected to the indoctrination of their parents, and who relies on their parents to make all other decisions in life for them.
◾Watchtower needs to teach that the refusal of blood is a personal decision for a mature adult, that a child is not capable of making the choice to refuse, and that parents cannot make it on their behalf. It should be made crystal clear that children are neither expected or encouraged to refuse blood.
Shunning
Shunning is rife among Jehovah's Witnesses - a practice that breaks up families
Shunning is rife among Jehovah’s Witnesses – a practice that breaks up families
I believe that Watchtower has the right to disfellowship and to disassociate people.
Yes, I will say that again.
I believe that Watchtower has the right to disfellowship and to disassociate people. Any private group or organisation has the right to decide who does and does not hold membership of their group. Sports clubs. Charities. Financial companies. Religions. Such groups have the right to remove membership from a member who is no longer considered to meet the requirements for membership.
What Watchtower does not have the right to do, however, is demand that those who have left their organisation be shunned by family and friends.
Of all the harmful practices currently employed by Watchtower, the practice of shunning is by far the most widespread.
Simply put, any who officially leave the religion, either involuntarily (by disfellowshipping) or voluntarily (disassociation) must expect to undergo the harrowing and cruel ordeal of shunning. Any family and friends who remain as Jehovah’s Witnesses are required to treat the leaver as if they were dead, to not even say a greeting to them.
Whilst there is an unofficial third option known as “fading” (to simply cease all Watchtower related activities and no longer attend religious meetings) this option is far from reliable, as Watchtower still considers such a person to be subject to their rules and regulations. Many examples exist of Witnesses who have “faded” for many years nonetheless being tracked down and disfellowshipped once they move in with an unmarried partner, criticise the religion, or celebrate Christmas. The testimony of Geoffrey Jackson during the Australian Royal Commission confirmed that this was possible.
Additionally, many faders find themselves effectively shunned regardless, with friends and family ceasing contact and treating them as dangerous association. This means that children who are baptised and then grow up to no longer believe the faith must choose between their beliefs and their friends and family. It means adults who wish to excersise their right to change their religion (or choose no religion at all) must make the same harrowing choice.
Shunning is essentially a particularly vile form of blackmail. “Believe what we tell you to believe, and do what we tell you to do, or you will never see your loved ones again.”
◾Watchtower must repeal the sanction of shunning as part of Disfellowshipping or Disassociation, and must take active steps to alter Witness culture so that Witnesses do not expect to shun or be shunned when a person leaves the religion of their own accord or is removed from it against their will.
There are many other aspects of Watchtower doctrine that I dislike or consider harmful; Watchtowers teachings on divorce laws, sexual morality, evolution and so forth. But if the sanction of shunning were removed, these doctrines cease to be harmful to others.
If a beaten wife were free to divorce her abusive husband and remarry without being shunned…
If a gay Jehovah’s Witness were free to leave the religion and live according to their true self without being shunned…
If a Jehovah’s Witness was free to state that he felt the creation account of Genesis to be pure metaphor for the evolutionary process God set in motion without being shunned…
See? Without the threat of shunning, Jehovah’s Witnesses are free to genuinely make their own choices and live the lives they honestly think to be correct, instead of towing the line and flinching every time an Elder looks their way and flexes the “Shunning Stick.” Even if their choice means that the religion no longer considers them to be a member, that choice no longer costs them their family and friends.
Granted, relationships might alter if the family and friends are not broad minded enough to accept the change, but these relationships are not arbitrarily severed. And once shunning becomes a thing of the past, one can quite see Witnesses culture evolving with it, becoming more accepting of association with past members. Indeed, it would probably be instrumental in starting to erode the poisonous “us and them” mentality that Watchtower currently enforces upon its flock. The “information control” that Watchtower enforces upon its congregations would likewise erode once those who left were free to discuss their reasons for doing so with those who remain in.
In the 21st century, religiously enforced shunning is inexcusable. It must go.
Mission Accomplished?
boxIf Watchtower were to enact the changes I have outlined, I would be content to cease my activism against them.
I would still consider their religion to be full of doctrines and beliefs that I consider to be utterly without merit, but they would no longer be a harmful cult; they would simply be another religion whose doctrines a person was free to research, accept, or discard of their own free will.
Granted, it may well be hard to envisage a situation where such reforms took place within the Organisation. It may will be that such harmful doctrines continue to feature front and centre of Watchtower policy until the Organisation crumbles under the weight of legal and financial sanctions, public notoriety and a burnt out membership. Scientology is already going this way; Watchtower should take note.
Nonetheless, this is not my goal.
Whether this ignominious ending comes to pass is entirely down to Watchtower. I remain hopeful that legal, financial, and public pressure can in time make the Organisation cede some of the required ground in order to survive. Recent events have shown that the current leadership’s taste for public humiliation and hardship is significantly decreased. Russell and Rutherford used to face their opposers in public debates and in the courts. Today’s Governing Body flee in panic from both, and when forced to appear in public court they put in a performance that bespeaks a distinct lack of capability and vigour for the fight. Their PR attempts are weak willed and desperate for public adoration, and when placed under pressure their representatives react in a fearful, confused way.
Watchtower is on the wrong side of history in this battle, and lacks the stomach and the tools required to fight it. One way or another, it will lose.
Until then, whilst these damaging practices remain in place, my fellow activists and I are not going anywhere.
We have work to do.
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← The Friday Column: Leave no man behind
News Bulletin: Dutch reporter thrown out of District Convention →
171 Responses to The Friday Column: Why I don’t want to destroy Watchtower
← Older Comments
It'sJustMe says:
May 15, 2016 at 7:26 am
I do not want to destroy watchtower too. How could I ? But if some governments felt like to confiscate some JW.Org infrastructures for real humanitarian needs I would not be sad. On the contrary I would be delighted even so much delighted.
Reply
Paranoid Android says:
May 15, 2016 at 10:48 am
Nice article CF.
However;
The WT sets up it’s members to suffer and die as martyrs.
There is nothing noble, inspiring,or respectable about suffering and dying for an American publishing company.
It is not holy sacrifice.
It is merely a waste.
It is just tragedy.
The GB has the audacity to spread lies and inaccuracies worldwide, all the while demanding that it’s members give away their dignity, freedom and even their lives for it.
In the more tolerant countries of the West, this happens through doctrinal sanctions as mentioned in the above article.
However, if you live in Russia, or Saudi Arabia, Iran, Nigeria, North Korea and many other less tolerant nations, WT will demand that in the name of –
False teachings
False promises
False prophecy
and
A false sense of righteousness
– it’s members oppose the Governments, the law of the land.
This leads to persecution, suffering, imprisonment, torture and Death.
All the while the GB sit in the safety of their American Throne room, dictating who should die for them.
There is nothing poetic about this.
It is not honourable to suffer and die for a lie.
Rather, it is just dreadfully tragic.
How many have suffered ad died for the WT?
How many more will suffer and die for the WT?
The WT does not deserve a future.
Reply
Outandabout says:
May 15, 2016 at 1:11 pm
Bang on!! Tell it like it is. They deserve nothing!
Reply
Bad Penny says:
May 15, 2016 at 5:06 pm
The sacrificial altar of the Watchtower has claimed and destroyed so many lives.
I found out this evening what an impact leaving the cult has had on our son. He was brought up as a witness from birth, he has known nothing else. Our leaving pulled the rug from under him. Everything he had believed in and worked hard to achieve within the org was now lost. He is trying to rebuild his life in a different world, a world where the future is not so certain, and he’s afraid.
I agree with you Paranoid Android, the WT does not deserve a future.
Reply
Paul says:
May 15, 2016 at 10:35 pm
I agree with the general premise of the OP and with the comments above. There is so much obviously wrong with the JW view of the world and even more wrong with the GB view – that change is highly overdue. I doubt that the current leadership will change anything at all, anytime soon. That leaves the only option as more visible activism and exposure.
I have been out for just 1 year, was born in and spent 62 years trapped in a cult that I did not see as such. A big waste!
Reply
Big B says:
May 18, 2016 at 10:53 am
@ Paul,
Glad you’ve have seen the light and found the courage to leave. Hope all goes well with you and your new found Christian freedom!
Reply
GEM says:
May 15, 2016 at 12:35 pm
Bravo, Covert Fade.
This skil(l)full piece of writing is “en pointe”.
Can I add a point, please. If the early congregation could write “For the Holy Spirit and we ourselves add no further burden to you but these necessary things….” and bring a shed load of issues in line with the (then) modern world….why does the Governing Body hesitate to do so today?
The Bible according to JW song and lore was written “as a protection and GUIDE”…
so, many lives could have been saved by common sense and humanity.
Thank you CF
Reply
way forward says:
May 15, 2016 at 6:16 pm
Hmmm nice write up. Are you a free thinker? I mean do, you belong to any religion? Do you believe in the holy quaran, or in the bible? I’m asking because, its not just enough to give advise against, and not at least prescribe a way forward. Humans have this natural tendency to belong to a religion, at least in africa. So where is the way forward? Islam, Catholic, pentecostal, Buddhism, idol worship……..
Reply
Matias says:
May 15, 2016 at 10:09 pm
NONE. You don’t have to belong to a religion. That something is natural/common does not imply that it is the way it should be. Just get out of every religion and start thinking for yourself.
Reply
way forward says:
May 15, 2016 at 6:16 pm
Hmmm nice write up. Are you a free thinker? I mean do, you belong to any religion? Do you believe in the holy quaran, or in the bible? I’m asking because, its not just enough to give advise against, and not at least prescribe a way forward. Humans have this natural tendency to belong to a religion, at least in africa. So where is the way forward? Islam, Catholic, pentecostal, Buddhism, idol worship……..
Reply
way forward says:
May 15, 2016 at 6:16 pm
Hmmm nice write up. Are you a free thinker? I mean do, you belong to any religion? Do you believe in the holy quaran, or in the bible? I’m asking because, its not just enough to give advise against, and not at least prescribe a way forward. Humans have this natural tendency to belong to a religion, at least in africa. So where is the way forward? Islam, Catholic, pentecostal, Buddhism, idol worship……..
Reply
way forward says:
May 15, 2016 at 6:16 pm
Hmmm nice write up. Are you a free thinker? I mean do, you belong to any religion? Do you believe in the holy quaran, or in the bible? I’m asking because, its not just enough to give advise against, and not at least prescribe a way forward. Humans have this natural tendency to belong to a religion, at least in africa. So where is the way forward? Islam, Catholic, pentecostal, Buddhism, idol worship……..
Reply
Vinitha says:
May 15, 2016 at 6:53 pm
Rightful existence of watchtower as an organization would not be a debate if it stops proselytizing, especially to vulnerables kids through child indoctrination and targeting people of poor nation with little education. Ofcourse, it has the right to treat women has second class citizens if the women who join the organization are willing to submit themselves to it and agree to it. Just like this women have right to join the organization, the organization has its right to impose child abuse, shutting and mind controls or citizens who willingly submit themselves to the organization and vouch their loyalty to the GB puppets. How long would it take for them to twist the interpretation of the verse that Jesus has come to put sword between members of the family to become a literal translation of ringt to stab unbelieving family members. This cult and it’s indoctrination practices and teachings are dangers. Their right to exist and obtain charity status is a legal issue, lets us not confuse it and try to be magnanimous in justifying them for it vs human right abuse.
Reply
Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:
May 16, 2016 at 12:06 am
There is no need to destroy Watchtower, it still has some secrets to share…
*** g81 11/8 p. 21 Is the Bible a White Man’s Book? ***
European nations, although claiming to be Christian, have quarreled and fought right through their turbulent history, this strife reaching a climax in this century in World Wars I and II, and now are making frantic preparations for World War III. And instead of proclaiming God’s kingdom, they look to a man-made political organization, the United Nations, as man’s only hope.
Reply
Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:
May 16, 2016 at 12:07 am
*** g82 8/2 p. 21 La Bible est-elle un livre des Blancs? ***
les nations européennes, bien que se prétendant chrétiennes, n’ont cessé de se quereller et de se battre tout au long de leur tumultueuse histoire. Ces luttes ont atteint leur paroxysme en ce XXe siècle avec les deux guerres mondiales. À présent, ces pays préparent avec frénésie une troisième guerre mondiale. Au lieu de proclamer le Royaume de Dieu, ils se tournent vers un organisme politique établi par les hommes, les Nations unies, et le considèrent comme l’unique espoir de l’humanité.
Reply
James Broughton says:
May 16, 2016 at 1:13 am
Sometimes it is difficult to stand back from an organisation with which one has been involved and write with such clarity but I believe Covert Fade has done just that. This is not just freethinking which is more about being all things to all people. Being critical is not necessarily negative when one can support one’s views in a balanced way with evidence. If those currently studying with the Witnesses were shown the points mentioned in the article then maybe they would think twice about joining.
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Mr Negative says:
May 16, 2016 at 2:14 am
To a large extent, I agree with this article. But I’m just not 100% sold on the idea that everybody should have a right to believe whatever they want. When it comes to things that are contrary to established fact (e.g. evolution, global flood), I do not think people should have a right to believe this nonsense, nor should they be allowed to attempt to spread it to others. They should be called out on it and prevented from divesting it to others. Now, when it comes to things that cannot be known for certain (e.g. the existence of god or an afterlife), then fair enough, people can believe what they want.
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Winston Smith says:
May 16, 2016 at 3:19 am
@Mr Negative
I understand your sentiment about people believing in and spreading flawed thinking, however to place any restriction on the freedom of thought and expression is a slippery slope that can easily lead to totalitarian control. After all, the restriction of free thought, is that not part of the issue with Watchtower?
WS
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Covert Fade says:
May 16, 2016 at 2:56 pm
Winston Smith’s post pretty much sums up how I feel on this, with far greater eloquence. If you muzzle freedom of thought, speech and belief for JW’s, you have created a muzzle that can (and history sadly teaches, WILL) eventually be used on everyone.
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Cuthbert says:
May 16, 2016 at 3:19 pm
Hmmm.. Covert, Winston, you are entering very shaky ethical territory when you say that people have a right to believe what they want and express themselves in consequence. A 12 year old may believe that he is ready to engage in a sexual relationship; that’s not to say as a society we are to accept his beliefs and let him carry on regardless. I’m all for freedom of speech and expression, however when the freedom of religious expression extends to coercing minors into refusing blood, even when they haven’t been dunked, we are duty bound to intervene.
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Covert Fade says:
May 16, 2016 at 4:10 pm
Cuthbert.
I understand your point, but how do you propose outlawing belief?
If someone believes something, and refuses to relinquish that belief in the face of all argument and logic, the only way to stop them believing it is to shoot them in the head.
That doesn’t mean they are free to ACT however they want; if my actions are causing demonstrable and significant harm to others, then then my actions must be stopped or contained. Belief drives action, but belief cannot be regulated or contained like action.
There are grey areas and difficult scenarios as a result, sure, but my point stands; a person is free to believe whatever he wants to believe. Thoughtcrime is not a concept I support.
Winston Smith says:
May 18, 2016 at 11:31 am
Education is the most powerful tool in combatting dangerous thinking. Making information available on sites like this one as well as educating folks about cults and mind control are the best solutions. Trying to use force (or legislation with the threat of force) to change people’s thinking never works (and is ethically questionable). Just look at nations that tried to control the thoughts of their citizens – Nazi Germany, USSR, and others – freedom of thought always wins out.
WS
Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:
May 16, 2016 at 3:11 am
Keep it until Jehovah himself takes the courage to tell humanity why he created this religion! He needs to be assured that we will forgive and forget as we keep in mind that he regrets having created man (Genesis 6:6)!
How can you explain that the same religions has written this?
*** g93 10/8 p. 5 How Can We Protect Our Children? ***
Tragically, adult society often unwittingly collaborates with child abusers. How so? By refusing to be aware of this danger, by fostering a hush-hush attitude about it, by believing oft-repeated myths. Ignorance, misinformation, and silence give safe haven to abusers, not their victims.
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ligniappe says:
May 16, 2016 at 5:47 am
Covert Fade’s point on shunning is well illustrated by this experience and it has just happened in this last week in a Cong in the nearby hills of large capital city in Australia. An elderly woman of 86 years age, suffering early onset dementia, and being treated for mental illness and on medication, and being cared for by her family, suffered bouts of kleptomania due to the meds.
This woman, a JW well enough, even though she, more often than not, cannot remember what she has talked about 2 hours beforehand knew that she had pilfered magazines and a vase from somewhere. I don’t know if the property was returned when the family became aware but I would think that that was what they did. There may have been other instances but all minor and silly, but this poor woman made the nearly fatal error of telling the elders what she had done and was so sorry about.
What happened next was, the elders led by G off r, (name changed but persons who know will recognise) declared her to be unrepentant and that a judicial committee meeting was to be held, which it was and she was disfellowshipped. The announcement was to be made this coming Wednesday. The distraught family sought advice elsewhere from men who know what to do, advised the family to contact the Australian Branch Office for an appeal, since this elderly 86 year old has mental illness. In the meantime the family spoke to elder G r, and his reply that she came and saw the elders, and that she was lucid in ‘fessing up and that they saw no reason not to kick her out, and I might add, kick her while she was down as well.
All of this fell on this elderly woman’s shoulders and she suffered a stroke from the pain of what they have done to her, and is in hospital as I type this. But what about the appeal to the Branch Office? Well, they are going to allow an appeal despite the 7 day time limit being well exceeded, because their concern was potential bad publicity if this gets out. Which they would deny if challenged. What a “great Organisation” makes you wonder why we haven’t joined sooner.
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Tara says:
May 16, 2016 at 6:42 am
Terrible 🙁 that is so sad. You have to love the shepherds eh.
A brother in my old hall… I haven’t been for half a year – yay me!…. has Bipolar. At times he was a real mess and would go off binge drinking. His wife is/was a shrew. Yelled at him, called him all the names under the sun, disrespected him, swore profanities at and about him…. yet he was the one who was df’d because he couldn’t bring his drinking under control. She was given support for having to live with him. I felt so sorry for him and most people did but the elders made the rules and out he went. I’m surprised it didn’t push him over the edge. He is reinstated now. I couldn’t tell you how he is doing as I have no contact.
I hope the elderly sister gets support from genuine people.
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Eyes opened says:
May 16, 2016 at 7:22 am
The experience you have related and the one prior are heart wrenching examples of the grotesque injustice that takes place within this organization. Some Elders who probably have no authority over others except within the org let it go to their heads and become heartless and abusive with this perceived authority. And it’s nothing less than tragic when their victims suffer. They make it perfectly obvious that holy Spirit and the love of Christ have no place in their minds and hearts.
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Winston Smith says:
May 16, 2016 at 7:32 pm
In general, congregation elders are simply unqualified to lead, shepherd, or teach. Some of them are kind fellows and others real rats, but I’d dare say that 99% are completely unqualified to serve the rank and file. I served for just under a decade and I was admittedly unqualified. And those I served with were similarly inadaquate.
Without proper training (and not that acquired at KM school, I might add), elders are grossly ill-equipped to handle the issues faced by the congregation members. Couple that with the fact that the organization looks down on pursuit of an education in psychological studies, promotes ass-backwards reasonings, and only promotes organizational yes-men to the rank of elder and you have a recipe for disaster. Then add to the mix the handful of glory-seekers who want to play the prince and the problems really add up. No wonder cases like the ones above occur. Elders are inept at best and corrupt at worst.
WS
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Big B says:
May 18, 2016 at 8:43 am
@Winston Smith
I totally agree with you. All members are coerced into thinking that higher education is “a tool of the Devil”. So the results of these policies logically follows in that what you have at the Hall are the most uneducated, unqualified elders (who wouldn’t make deacon in Christendom) teaching Sheeple who also don’t know any better. If brain power were explosives the combined knowledge of the so called “Elders” couldn’t blow their own noses.
A true case of “the blind leading the blind”.
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Telescopium says:
May 19, 2016 at 10:27 pm
@WS & Big B
“The blind leading the blind” is so true. In reality, the most qualified leaders in any organization are the reasonable, level-headed individuals that can get things done. I believe there are plenty of men and women in each congregation that could fill this role. However, the written material from the WTB&TS indicates they are not interested in promoting two out of three of those traits. They want brothers (only) who will serve as a local mouthpiece for the Organization and can get things done without question.
I believe this is why we see so few elders that can be counted as qualified. For the ones that are “kind fellows” their genuine value to the congregation is stifled or watered down to the point that they just become cogs in the machine. It’s like witnessing the diminishment of the person as he relinquishes his mental faculties to someone else.
I served only briefly as an elder, but the experience was enough to convince me that I couldn’t be a cog – my conscience wouldn’t let me. Needless to say, the other brothers did not understand or agree when I tried to explain why I was stepping down.
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Eyes opened says:
May 16, 2016 at 7:05 am
@Matias, totally agree, we don’t need to be part of a religion. Being spiritual and being religious is are two different things. I do wholeheartedly agree with the watchtower statement that religion is a snare and a racket, including Watchtower. My spouse and I do strive to be spiritual people and we are liberated and much happier without Watchtower telling us what to think and how to believe and having the audacity to threaten our relationship with God if we don’t see it their way.
Regards
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Startrekangel says:
May 16, 2016 at 8:22 am
I would agree with the general sentiment of this article, except that the sad true is that the WT has moved beyond the point of no return. Is like saying you would give Nazis another chance of existing. Where they can practice everything they believe, so long they do so without actually pressuring or practicing what they preach. Sooner or later it will happen. There is no place for intolerance in the 21st century. Of any kind. If you go to a restaurant without shoes, you are not banned forever. You will be welcomed as long as you were shoes. You don’t have to put on a show of repentance. To say that JW can continue DFing people so long family ties remain, is only a small step in the right direction. Membership, is strictly speaking of membership, should dictate that, as soon as the requirement is met, you are automatically back in. In other words, I agree to some degree, but the culture is so engrained in them that many thing will remain the same. WT needs to go, there is no other way.
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M Saurus says:
May 16, 2016 at 8:56 am
I have not read all the comments yet so someone may have said this already. If so, I apologize.
My thoughts on reading this – you mention “free will” a lot in this article. Whoever uses their free will and CHOOSES to be/remain a member of this organization has to follow the rules. They cannot become a member then say “ok, I don’t like this rule or that rule – they need to change this or that”. No.
One rule is no blood transfusions. Want to have one? Don’t become /REMAIN a JW.
Another rule: when baptized members get disfellowshipped or disassociate, you shun them. Don’t like the rule? Don’t join the club.
The only exception is the child abuse thing. None of the things I mentioned above are against the law. Child molestation is. If they condone it, they should be held accountable, morally and legally.
HOWEVER – if the parents of an abused child CHOOSE to follow the elder’s advice and NOT notify the authorities… SHAME ON THEM. They have chosen this crazy religion and its crazy rules OVER THEIR OWN CHILD. They should also be held accountable, morally and legally.
OK, some crazy church elder tells you not to report the abuse of your own child – if you CHOOSE to obey them vs. protecting/helping your child – then it’s on YOU. Not on the WT.
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Eyes opened says:
May 16, 2016 at 11:37 am
To a degree I agree with you. But how many adults who become members fully understand all the consequences when most of the negative side is tucked away and their exposure is to all the feel good things. Now with the extreme push for children to be baptized, how can they be expected to grasp the seriousness of such a decision. People are expected to be accountable for their decisions, but in witness culture no one is truly informed before making the decision. I know that people are told don’t worry if you don’t understand everything, it’s okay, nobody knows it all before baptism. That’s right. If people were better informed, how many do you think would continue to be baptized? When someone finally does begin to understand and perhaps disagree, now they are threatened with loss of family and friends. Yes I agree, don’t join if you don’t like the rules, but at least tell what the rules are.
Regards
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Holy Connoli says:
May 17, 2016 at 2:16 am
To Eyes Opened: I agree with your point. In todays world it is all about transparency.
In Real estate you MUST disclose all known material facts about a property or you will be liable if a hidden fact comes out.You cannot hide things of importance. You will get sued. In all business it is the same. In legal matters also.In banking also. In medical field also. THE WT DOES NOT disclose and is not transparent when they study or convert someone. Do they tell someone when they study ” if you ever leave this Org” your life will be destroyed! Your family if they are JW’s will not be allowed to speak with you, your friends will not be allowed to speak with you. You must curtail freedom of thought and speech and if you EVER DARE to say anything against our teachings you will be DF’d. You must die if you need a blood transfusion, also all the other craziness about not allowing your children to part take in school sports/activities etc.
It should d all be transparent down to the minor details. The WT just sells you on the “new world” then adds tons of man made rules and restrictions after ur baptized but never explain the harshness to you until you are in the flytrap. One brother years ago likened being a JW to belonging to the “Mafia”! he told me once you join this org you just don’t leave whenever you want to. You just can’t leave without consequence happening to you! What a way to view your religion? Like Marlon Brando said in the Godfather,” I want to make you an offer you can’t refuse”. Welcome to the WatchTower. Now we own you.
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M Saurus says:
May 17, 2016 at 8:45 am
Holy Connoli – agreed. Except:
(1) Real Estate, banking and other financial disclosures are business transactions that demand full disclosure (believe me, I know this first hand). WT is a religion. Not the same thing at all.
(2) Other than children who are born in, any adult or young person who is studying and being told all the rainbows and unicorns stuff SHOULD have enough sense to research the org before joining. Remember, these people are not already witnesses so cannot be worried about “objective” research.
If someone joins a religion (or anything else) blindly with no personal research, then they were not duped.
In all this discussion, I am failing to see where any personal responsibility is being brought in. There needs to be some.
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dee2 says:
May 17, 2016 at 5:44 pm
M Saurus,
“WT is a religion. Not the same thing at all.”
WT was a publishing company and now a real estate business, so Holy Connoli’s analogy is appropriate 🙂
WT is definitely not a religion but a cult. Cults are well known to hide many of their more controversial practices from potential converts. A surreal picture is painted of the cult up front in order to attract converts. Many persons do not know up front what they are getting themselves into when they sign up.
Holy Connoli says:
May 17, 2016 at 7:19 pm
To M Saurus: True that the WT is a religion but full disclosure and transparency should be required if they are what they claim to be.
My point was that in any relationship that involves your entire life there should be full disclosure by the ORG that claims to be the spokesperson for God. Perhaps today since the advent of the internet it is easier for many to make a wise decision based on their own research. In my case I was 19 years old and very impressionable and the internet did not exist. To go to libraries and book stores and do days of research was not practical at that point in most peoples lives. Also when you have undue influence by those around you that can also cloud things. In life also it sometimes takes time to see the entire picture and the false prophecies iver many years. Yes, we aLL HAVE SOME RESPONSIBILTY OF THE DECESIONS WE MADE TO BE PART OF THE WT BUT WE ALSO WERE DUPED INTO BELIEVING
the WT teachings. I was never told that if I ever disagree with a teaching or play on a school sports team or have a beard or
attend a wedding of a friend or relative in a church or do not agree with a change in the teachings that my entire friends and family would not talk to me?
YEs, they are a religion but they are also a BIG BUSINESS also. Like getting a mortgage on a house you have to sign tons of disclosures or to invest in a bond or stick etc. You give more of your life to a religion than any bank so why should the WT NOT disclose any consequences to a possible convert of what happens if they leave the org? Now most people can do honest research on the internet yet the WT still converts some educated adults?
In that case yes, they ae responsible but we have to remember that Religion and especially the WT preys on adults that have problems in their life and they pretend that they have the answers and that they care. I was coming to an airport a short time ago and the JW’s had their table out there with BIG letters and the heading What happens when a Loved on dies? There were 2 ladies sitting there and hoping someone would come over and talk with them. They acted like they cared. So they were preying on the emotions of others. I still say full disclosure from the WT should be the rule.
dee2 says:
May 17, 2016 at 9:24 pm
Most definitely Holy Connoli,
“Religion and especially the WT preys on adults that have problems in their life and they pretend that they have the answers and that they care.”
The JW recruitment strategy has always involved targeting persons who are at their lowest, most vulnerable moment in life.
An elder once said: we need to keep going from house to house as we never know when a person will lose a loved one in death or some other devastating thing happens in their life for which they seek answers which can spark their interest in “the truth”.
dee2 says:
May 17, 2016 at 9:47 pm
Holy C,
There’s a reason why cults don’t do full disclosure of their terms and conditions up front – if they did, it is very unlikely that they would gain recruits.
Interestingly, when you read or hear about the experiences of persons who were once members of a cult, almost always, without exception, they relate that they didn’t know what they were getting into up front – this is a common theme in the experiences of just about every person who was formerly a member of a cult.
Bestium says:
May 20, 2016 at 2:15 am
M Saurus you are
so smart talking sitting in front of computer in America probably where you have internet since 1980’s and other benefits of civilization. But if you were living in another less developed country, where you don’t have access to info to research, and your life is a sh*t, you would agree to believe all rainbows and unicorns, because it would give you some hope for better life.
Bestium says:
May 20, 2016 at 2:01 am
100% agree, they don’t open all rules. You learn all that horrible stuff later when you have no choice but to comply
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M Saurus says:
May 24, 2016 at 12:20 pm
@Bestium –
You ALWAYS have a choice. Always. The consequences of your choice may not be to your liking (i.e. shunned by so-called family and friends, or having to live in the real world like everyone else-minus the paradise fantasies) but the choice is up to you. No one is making you stay in this crazy cult against your will.
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dee2 says:
May 16, 2016 at 5:18 pm
In the case of JW parents’ refusal of blood transfusions for their minor children, the law is involved to some extent since doctors have been known to obtain court orders in order to overturn the parents’ decision.
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Juli says:
May 16, 2016 at 11:25 am
This cult needs to be destroyed completely. There is absolutely nothing about it worth salvaging.
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Gameisover says:
May 17, 2016 at 3:10 am
Nazism needed to be destroyed. Isis needs to be destroyed. They are not recuperable.
Neither is the Watchtower. If they would completely reverse their murderous evil doings, they would no longer be Nazis, Isis or Watchtower.
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Koos says:
May 16, 2016 at 11:44 am
Covert Fade, great article not taking a hard stance against watchtower. JW’s might stay reading.
But how to convince JW-parents that mentally abuse their children by allowing them to notice horrifying pictures in their publications?
Armageddon Art – Jehovah Will Destroy You!http://www.quotes-watchtower.co.uk/armageddon_art.html
https://www.watchtowerlies.com/refusal_of_blood_transfusions_by_jehovah_s_witnesses.html
Well said M Saurus, thank you!
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dee2 says:
May 16, 2016 at 5:21 pm
“Armageddon Art – Jehovah Will Destroy You!”
It’s meant to terrify children into submission.
Some ex-JWs have relayed their experiences about the horrible nightmares about Armageddon which they had as a child; some relate how they always had dreams about dying at Armageddon and being in concentration camps.
I read about one case where the child is so scared that he is always afraid to leave his mother’s side because he thinks Armageddon will happen while he is at school or at a friend’s home.
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Twmack says:
May 16, 2016 at 11:59 am
Allowing blood fractions which were formerly banned
in the Fred Franz era, ( The instigator of this flawed doctrine )
Suggests they would dearly love to ditch this mill stone he put
around their neck.
It would very easy to produce scriptural reasons for abandoning
the teaching. Most of the R & F I’m sure would welcome this as
“New Light” and even congratulate the gb for perceived
scriptural integrity.
What though of the many, literally thousands, whose loved
one’s were sacrificed to this man made law? would they not
be extremely anguished ? over the senseless deaths of their
precious children, wives, husbands,and others.
Would the 7 autocrats, even consider these ones? no doubt
they would. But would it stop them going ahead? I think not,
the advancement of their empire,would take precedence.
I know, at the present this scenario is merely speculation, but
it could easily become a reality. An almost identical
occurrence has already taken place. When the 13 year ban
on organ transplants was quietly withdrawn. Said to be
Cannibalism, then admitted “There was no Scriptural
injunction against it”.
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dee2 says:
May 16, 2016 at 5:57 pm
Twmack,
The GB would perhaps love to abandon the flawed teaching banning blood transfusions but they are absolutely terrified of three words:……….wrongful death lawsuits.
I suspect the move to allow blood fractions, which were formerly banned, was done more out of a fear of a backlash – the GB needed to stem the tide of needless deaths so as to cover their behinds and ward off any wrongful death lawsuits.
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Winston Smith says:
May 17, 2016 at 9:53 am
It is my understanding that blood fractions became allowable at or around the same time they were seeking legal recognition in certain Eastern European countries and getting blocked due to their blood sanctions. It was either in Bulgaria or Romania (can’t remember which) where the organization said that JWs could accept any medical treatment without fear of repercussions from the congregation. After gaining legal recognition, they quickly back pedaled on these statements.
WS
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dee2 says:
May 17, 2016 at 5:55 pm
Watchtower shenanigans at it’s best Winston!………….otherwise known as God’s holy spirit at work!
One thing is for sure, there is always some reason behind any changes which the Watchtower makes and it usually has nothing to do with being directed by God’s holy spirit.
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Grace says:
May 17, 2016 at 6:53 pm
Also, they have a lot of investments in bloodless medicine so while they have influence over the members they are going to protect their investments by keeping the blood ban. While at the same time covering their butts from lawsuits by allowing fractions.
If you follow the money since ww2, you will see where the rabbit hole goes.
Gary says:
May 16, 2016 at 12:38 pm
‘Keep talking’, it’s that simple. Many thanks to the team for your efforts.https://youtu.be/-ithViBMF1k
Oh look there’s a church between the statues.
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A.M says:
May 16, 2016 at 10:22 pm
Thank you for giving a voice to my silent thoughts! I was baptized at 13 even though I didn’t really believe any of the words coming out of the elders mouths. I was terrified of disappointing my family, congregation, and friends.
I used to have panic attacks before any meeting, thinking about the “paradise earth/living forever”
The idea of being disassociated / shunned was so unbearable I lead a very secretive alter life, I lied all the time.
That put in many dangerous situations because I couldn’t call home for help.
I still believe in, and love our creator. But I too wish religion, all organized religion, would stop using fear as a tactic to keep people in line. Stop the abuse of power, and turning a blind eye to those that use there power to prey on others!!!!
Thanks again, A fellow X wittness
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Gary says:
May 17, 2016 at 1:26 am
Everything considered, all differing points of views considered, it’s about heart. The Watchtower fails miserably, ‘please stand’.
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Gary says:
May 17, 2016 at 1:38 am
Retribution?, thank you for your education Watchtower. Never, though I wish you would change, do I wish to be like you and for that I thank you for that.
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Gary says:
May 17, 2016 at 1:41 am
Apologies for the missing words fudleded:-)
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Twmack says:
May 17, 2016 at 6:49 am
The rescinding of the ban on organ transplants reveals
a significant truth about the teachings of the WT ORG.
Here is the verbatim announcement from the WT. —
“there is no “Biblical Command” pointedly forbidding the
taking in of other human tissue” WT, 15 / 3 / 1980, p31.
Since there is no Biblical Command, from where did that
command originate ? The answer is plain, and against
which the Bible gives a very strong warning.—-
“Their worship is a farce, for they teach man made ideas
as commands from God”. Matt, 15/9 , NLT.
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Average Joe says:
May 17, 2016 at 7:56 am
That’s a brilliant observation and piece of research TWMACK!
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Outandabout says:
May 17, 2016 at 7:43 pm
Well done! I’ve just had a quick look at google scholar and without thorough reading it looks as if blood is classified as either connective tissue or tissue. The Watchtower may have put there foot in it here and it’s a shame it’s taken so long for somebody to spot it.
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Outandabout says:
May 17, 2016 at 5:25 pm
Jehovah Witnesses are a group of people who can silently enter your family and infect any of them with the notion that to commit suicide for them is a noble thing to do. If this weren’t a religious group, what do you think the authorities would have to say about that? What if this were a communicable disease running loose in the community? Something is very twisted here. Beware of the evil that is the Watchtower!
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Covert Fade says:
May 18, 2016 at 2:45 am
Thanks for your comments everyone, both those who agree and those who disagree with me. 🙂 Discussion always illuminates things.
I have noted a lot of people here and in other comments sections online stating outright that they want Watchtower wiped off the face of the Earth and the religion gone forever.
Okay, fine, I get that impulse, but I have an honest question:
Can anyone who feels that way outline here a workable detailed, real world scenario in which that actually comes to pass, including a way of dealing with all the Witnesses who might never cease believing in their religion and will want to continue practicing it in some form?
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Holy Connoli says:
May 18, 2016 at 4:07 am
Covert Fade: I don’t think there will be one size fits all if that ever happened. I think it could be like when Rutherford took hostile control over the WT back after the death of CT Russell. Many , many left and or stayed with Russell’s teachings. Some stared their own similar religions and no doubt many just stopped believing the entire thing or went back to nominal Christianity. As we know there are several groups even today that continue to teach Russells teachings, The international bile students still exist in different forms and groups.There was another similar group to the WT called the Worldwide Church of God led by Herbert Armstrong. It was an end times religion always making false predictions and having extreme control over the followers very much like the WT.When he died several other groups within that org began to form. May felt the existing org was not following his teachings and splintered off into several other groups. The actual religion that was the Worldwide Church of god ended up denouncing all of the original teachings and joined “Nominal Christianity” and took on their beliefs which they had for decades condemned as being false and “PAGAN”? Sound familiar? I can see that happening to the WT also.
Maybe right now we don’t see it but anything is now possible with the internet and people having an awakening. If perhaps another GB member awakens and comes out of the WT grip it could have a major effect on the entire WT teachings and religion. Also many may just not want to be part of an organized religion anymore after being “BURNED” by the teachings of the WT. Some will panic and we can understand that bc they have given their whole life to something and realize it is a scam and don’t want another religion. Some may also go back to other Churches or other beliefs, It will be a rough time for a lot of JW’s if that ever happens. For sure it will go in many different directions.
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Tara says:
May 18, 2016 at 7:03 am
That would be me HC. I will have no part in organised religion anymore, not after the Borg. I prefer to think of myself as Spiritual now, not religious though I do still pray. We had an experience last night when a piece of equipment broke down in our house. My son in law called a JW friend who would use his work related skills to help us…. he told my son in law to call up his work company and go through those lines. End game. Basically it was unsaid but, ‘they don’t go to meetings anymore so I will no longer help you.’
Conditional friendship. Who needs that. No more religion for me. as far as the WT I will be here for any JW that escapes. But I hope the organisation falls apart.
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Sunshineonarainyday says:
May 18, 2016 at 6:21 am
Thank you for this article, I have never commented on here before although I have read all the articles and comments. I was raised a JW in a large, dysfunctional family. Even so 5 years ago when I left because of many doubts and a failed discussion with the elders and bethel on dress (tights under a long skirt or dress) my privileges were removed because I was labeled a “trouble maker” I then became disillusioned and left, met the love of my life who is an unbeliever married him and was subsequently shunned. A lady who knew my father told me whenever she saw him in the shops he would cry about me. I have since had a baby and he has not met him. Shunning is the worst! The organization is controlling and the elders feel they are the security team, with no training. The organization and magazine articles is their weapon that they wave around like bullies. Maybe WTS will eventually implode causing it to pop like a pimple that is festering … I can only but hope. Until then I will continue to read ur articles and enjoy my very happy life that I have found.
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M Saurus says:
May 18, 2016 at 8:53 am
Sunshine –
I am so proud of you for having the personal fortitude and courage to leave – even though it meant losing family and friends.
That is so sad about your father. But remember – it is his choice – he chose the org over you and his grandchild. That is no reflection on you and not your fault. Hopefully you have some new family on your husband’s side now who will love you unconditionally, not only if you belong to the same religion.
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Twmack says:
May 18, 2016 at 11:00 am
Maybe not a swift end to this cult, but a continual decline.
Which in many ways seems to have already begun.
They’ve painted themselves into a corner with the now expired
generation teaching, but clinging on desperately with the
ludicrous “Overlapping” invention. Recently I asked my brother
in law elder to show me, where in the Bible the overlapping gen,
was indicated. He was flustered , and blustered and incoherent,
I almost felt sorry for him. I don’t think he believed it himself.
Time is not on their side !
Another nail in their coffin could be the removal of tax exemption
resulting in more cuts and less growth. Already people’s attention
is being focussed on these billionaire freeloading “Religions”.
there are calls right now for another investigation into Scientology,
and if their exemption is removed, the dominoes could start falling.
Life after WT. Well life goes on, people are resilient, many may
welcome a new found freedom, and like some on this site, others
may formulate their own philosophy. many who have left WT,
have already affiliated with other religions.
I totally agree with you CF that freedom of thought, freedom of
religion must be protected. But when that religion and associated
thought, not only support an ideology that has resulted in an
estimated 50,000 deaths but actively preach and inculcate it.
Should we then be overly concerned about such freedom?
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Average Joe says:
May 18, 2016 at 12:38 pm
Just came upon this in a Tweet from someone I follow. Seems a very balanced approach to teaching children about religion. Not to everyone’s taste but the author makes some very poignant statements.http://honeyquill.com/2014/06/09/redefining-faith/
I’m not sure if it is really relevant to the discussion at hand (please feel free to delete it if not CF) but I found it very interesting and thought I’d share.
AJ
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ruthlee says:
May 19, 2016 at 2:56 am
Hi AJ thanks for sharing this I found it very interesting. I am at the stage of the family splitting apart me and my little dude believe in god and heaven and read the bible and my husband and other child are ingrained jdubs who never pickup the bible and are expecting their panda prize at any moment now. For me and my heaven bound child, we have no affiliation as yet because I do not want to be bullied anymore. This is where the horns of dilemma lay because my little dude will have no jdub friends and it takes a while to establish new connections. The strangest thing is , is that i don’t grieve so much for my deadawake still in jdub family because even though they are believers they are not at peace or happy and now I’m through the fire I can say that I am at peace . It all takes time as many here have said and we all reach different conclusions. I actually would like to join a church but I do not want to get mired down in another set of ridiculous rules and nonsense and politics. One thing I will say is no matter how the jehovahs witnesses reform , regroup, change their mind, believe in all being born again etc, etc, I will never go back because they did too much damage and told lies and covered up their filth with more filth. That was never godlike or Christian.I still think that they should compensate all of us who were denied an education, or were victims of the 1975 scam, or were raped and not allowed justice, and that is just a start. If the society started giving it’s wealth away to us the faithful first and the victims of them then they may start storing up treasures in heaven. So putting their money where their mouth is would at least rub salve into a calloused collective conscience. Sorry ive gone on a bit cheers Ruthlee
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KaKaJones says:
May 18, 2016 at 4:39 pm
The way the JWs in my family act, think and speak causes me to think they would stone people to death like they did in the old testament if they could. They probably would if it wasn’t for man made laws. They find ways to get around good reasoning. Religion doesn’t have to be banned for the law through doctors and child protection to help people. For example I called C.P.S. on my family member because she was giving her baby to much alcohol to drink. The case worker saved that baby’s life as far as I’m concerned. My family wouldn’t listen to me but they are intimidated by C.P.S. The elders said to me it wasn’t a congregational matter and it was up to the mother to raise the baby in the way she saw fit. That really happened to me. I feel sometimes people need to be protected from themselves weather they are in or out of a religion or a cult. Children need to be protected from stupid people. Teachers, doctors, nurses have laws they must follow to protect children. JWs, catholics, athiests, christians, muslims, budists, satan worshipers, and also the cult of Mary need laws to protect their children. That applies to Any cult
Reply
KaKaJones says:
May 18, 2016 at 4:40 pm
JWs, catholics, athiests, christians, muslims, budists, satan worshipers, and also the cult of Mary need laws to protect their children. That applies to Any cult.
Reply
KaKaJones says:
May 18, 2016 at 4:48 pm
Some of the things I saw on The Cult of Mary on National Geographic reminded me of my JW family.
Reply
Robert67 says:
May 19, 2016 at 5:15 am
No, it definitely has to close its doors. It’s not a ‘religion’ it’s a ‘for profit’ printing company that uses scripture to brain wash those seeking Christ to eternally push their product to earn salvation and forgiveness (a free gift from Christ according to scripture)
Reply
Quendi says:
May 25, 2016 at 11:01 pm
I haven’t read all the comments here, so what I say may have already been stated by others. There is a biblical adage that applies very well to the Watchtower: “As you sow, so shall you reap.” (Galatians 6:7) Should the Watchtower come to a disastrous but hardly untimely end, it will be well-deserved. While no impartial person would deny the organization has done good in the world, that has been outweighed by its evils–for evils they have been. The wreckage of broken families, sundered friendships and shattered lives speaks for itself. Any organization which is responsible for bringing these things about merits whatever end it reaches.
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