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Runnells is excommunicated  
Posted: 17 April 2016 10:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Morethanmo
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Easier to boot him than answer questions that will hurt mormondom. 
 
 http://fox13now.com/2016/04/17/author-of-letter-to-a-ces-director-leaves-lds-church-after-disciplinary-council/
 Signature
__________________________________________

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
~Epicurus
__________________________________________


   


Posted: 17 April 2016 10:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
finex
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Well actually he handed over a letter of resignation and "excommunicated LDS church and its kangaroo court out of his life." https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/4f9stb/jeremy_runnells_excommunicationresignation_mega/ 

   


Posted: 18 April 2016 02:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
former victim
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Nice to see publicity about this event. Also, to learn, that Fox News included all 84 pages of the CES Letter online for any one wishing to learn what it contains. 

   


Posted: 18 April 2016 04:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized
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He was denied an ASL interpreter at his hearing. What kind of asshole is that stake president? He (Jeremy) has lost a further 50% of his hearing in the last 6 months and is legally deaf. It is obvious that excommunication was a foregone conclusion, that the orders came from on high, and that the mormon thought police are alive and well. Oh sure, you can doubt, but don't make any information public, even if it is 100% truthful.
 
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Posted: 18 April 2016 05:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
Free2Live
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finex:
Well actually he handed over a letter of resignation and "excommunicated LDS church and its kangaroo court out of his life." https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/4f9stb/jeremy_runnells_excommunicationresignation_mega/
 
 Thank you for the correction Finex.
 
There is a difference between excommunication and resignation.
 
http://www.mormonnomore.com/legal-precedent
 
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Posted: 18 April 2016 10:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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WinstonSmith
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Is the hiearchy of the Mormon Church really this stupid?
 
I have been trying to think of something to write all morning, but I am speechless.
 
The end of the Fox report said:
 
 "Officials with the LDS Church declined to comment on the disciplinary council, saying they are private matters."
 
If it was a private matter, they would not be dragging Jeremy in to face excommunication.
 
Isn't the real issue that Jeremy posted his letter to the CES director on the internet, making it "public"?
 
It seems more and more that the closest thing the Mormon Church has to a prophet is Micheal Otterson (head of public affairs).
 
If I had a plattform where my voice could be heard, I would make the following accusation against the current Q15:
 
Apostasy - for being derelict and complicit in matters of truth and honesty.
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“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”  -Marcus Aurelius


   


Posted: 20 April 2016 04:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
former victim
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After viewing the "Leaked" proceedings video, the entire court is derelict in their duties for failure to provide transparent leadership in this entire matter.
 
The title here is in need of revision, as at the end of the meeting, Jeremy excommunicated TSCC. It's the other way around!


   


Posted: 20 April 2016 06:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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I wish I knew how Jeremy got video! I would have opted for that, too! I think, though, that audio was sufficient for me.
 
As for Jeremy:
 
Jeremy Rocks!!!!!! 
 
 
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Posted: 20 April 2016 06:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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Jon Marshall
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I watched the video. Jeremy did a great job. The council could not or would not answer anything of course.
 
Glad he is out. Congrats Jeremy. 
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Posted: 20 April 2016 06:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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Lazarus
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That was sincerely inspiring to watch. Here is a man who wanted real answers and searched long and hard for. Instead of answers, he got this court. Watching/listening to it you witness a strikingly archaic proceeding void of a sense of fairness that is at least attempted in a real court. Jeremy was right, the way the LDS church operates in these courts (or maybe its just this Stake President?) is disturbing. But he held his head high, and acted with integrity. Well done Jeremy! And congratulations! 

   


Posted: 20 April 2016 01:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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Morethanmo
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finex:
Well actually he handed over a letter of resignation and "excommunicated LDS church and its kangaroo court out of his life." https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/4f9stb/jeremy_runnells_excommunicationresignation_mega/
 
 Thanks for the correction. I hadn't seen the video till today so I am happy to see that he walked out and didn't give them the satisfaction of their false goodbye smiles hiding blatant treachery. I watched the end three or four times to hear him excommunicating the mormon church again and again. It's great.
 
 Signature
__________________________________________

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
~Epicurus
__________________________________________


   


Posted: 20 April 2016 02:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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Born Free
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I love Jeremy's engagement with their process to test out how committed they were to a healthy process.
He handled that well, so appears to have strategised well to cover off potentialities.
And that he kept his powder dry, and then lit it right under their nose after the full sham process ran its course, was superb.
I'd love to have an insight into the mental impact on various people officiating in the room.
 
They looked like stooges and puppets during the proceedings, and now their performances are out there and proud for the world to scrutinise.
May they stand tall and proud!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
Daryl


 
 
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‘Our life is the creation of our minds, and we do much of that creating in metaphor…. With the wrong metaphor we are deluded; with no metaphor we are blind. ’ Jonathan Haidt
‘and I am responsible for the metaphors that populate my mind.’ Daryl


   


Posted: 20 April 2016 05:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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Neo: "Why do my eyes hurt?" Morpheus: "You've never used them"
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Posted: 20 April 2016 08:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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Quartersawn
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WOW!!! a standing ovation to Jeremy 
 
I listened to his "court of love" and the SP and counsel were just @sses, through and through.
Jeremy called the SP on his not reading the entire definition of Apostasy from the handbook, and how the SP never offered 'corrections' to his apostasy, the SP changing the rules of the meetings, and how the church was defaming itself, throwing past prophets under the bus by saying the deny those teachings now.
 
The SP was cold and shallow, even his testimonkey was shallow.
Jeremy was dumbfounded by the lack of exchange permitted, but was calm and confident in his facts. I loved how he quoted past presidents of the church on how research, intelectual thought and inquiry should not be suppressed. Touché. 
 
Excellent job!!
 
 
If you do listen to the 44 minute version, start at around the 10 minute mark. If you're pressed for time at least listen to the last 20 minutes.  
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2015 Conference
"LEAVING A LEGACY"
October 16-18
Doubletree Suites
SLC, Utah




















 


Financial Report for 2011 to Date

Financial Report for 2010 to Date

Financial Report for 2009

Twin Falls Newspaper Article

Twin Falls Billboard

Financial Report for 2009 to Date




The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]

Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]

Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]



 Summer Schedule
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Advice Wanted (Young Mans Wife going over Edge)  
Posted: 19 April 2016 11:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
peace out
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Ok
My default is to shutup! But it keeps bugging me. I have friend with younger brother, Mormon boy married less than 2 year his wife has gone over the edge. She has developed extreme anxiety they had to pull over several times because she was so anxious about going to choir music show (not Mormon, FYI it was very nice.) Apparently she is now on suicide watch and has to be watched 24 hours a day. They are both young and in their twenties. They have no kids. This whole thing kind of blows me away. Any advice for the young man? I’m wondering do things like this ever get better and stay better or is this going to be a lifelong thing?
 
I’m not saying anything unless asked and maybe not even them,but any group wisdom would be welcome.


   


Posted: 19 April 2016 01:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Quartersawn
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My first thought is mental illness, bipolar comes to mind. Bipolar usually comes with highs and lows, so far you've only described the lows. 
 
Perhaps an undiagnosed concussion.
 
I also have a friend who just had a brain tumor removed and she becomes anxious very easily. The chemicals that surround our brains is a delicate matter.
 
In any case, medical and psychological counseling and advice is necessary. 
Meds can and do help, if they can stay on them long enough to get them balanced.
 
 
My ex was Bipolar and completely lost it, threatening my life several times, completely mad yelling and unable to reason, threatened to take her life 4 times in three weeks, and attempted suicide three times over five years. She refused any medical treatment and knew how to work the system when I forced her into treatment. I, my family, and even former bishops, felt the only option was to force her to take care of herself as she refused any and all help from me, her priesthood leaders and friends.   Not the best of endings but she is now stable on meds and taking care of things in her own way. 
 
Long story just to say sometimes letting go is the best option.  
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Posted: 19 April 2016 04:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
peace out
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I will ask about head trauma  that is something that I don't think they would've considered I've never heard of that before. 
 


   


Posted: 21 April 2016 03:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Winyan
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If it turns out that there aren't any tumors or head trauma, it does sound like chemical imbalance. But I'm wondering if there may be emotional stress also. Is she being pressured by anyone to get pregnant. There are so many cultural stresses on mormon women, which probably explains the reason why Utah has the highest incidence of prescription drug abuse.
 
I hope she gets the help she needs. 


   


Posted: 21 April 2016 08:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Born Free
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Depression and anxiety are at extremely high levels in the population at large in western ciultures, yet much of that goes undiagnosed and therefore untreated.
Mormon culture contains many social and religious belief elements that exasperate both depression and anxiety, while at the same time, they are resistant to and even fearful of treatment.
As an example, many aspects of Mormon belief IMO are actively toxic to self-esteem, which in turn feeds anxiety and depression.
The unchallenged belief that suffering from these conditions is a result of some spiritual failing sure as Hell does not help.
Oh, and did I mention Mormon belief is highly toxic to good mental health.
I would go so far as to postulate that many families find Mormonsim attractive as a superficial solution to toxic family dynamics. It of course pretends to have answers, but not only has nothing to offer, but proffers more toxic beliefs.
 
Daryl 
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‘Our life is the creation of our minds, and we do much of that creating in metaphor…. With the wrong metaphor we are deluded; with no metaphor we are blind. ’ Jonathan Haidt
‘and I am responsible for the metaphors that populate my mind.’ Daryl


   


Posted: 22 April 2016 12:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Celestial Wedgie
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The distress does not sound to me like a typical anxiety disorder. The age of onset, suddenness of exacerbation, and intensity of disruption suggest instead a possible psychotic disorder, possibly schizophrenia. One telling difference would be that the distress she felt while driving was paranoia, not mere anxiety. If so then early treatment and stress management are the best interventions. Schizophrenia tends to be a progressive disorder, probably best seen as psychiatric in presentation with a neurological basis. Best practice now involves early and consistent use of medications, stress management, and family involvement. There is a specific program worth checking: Multifamily Group (MFG).
 
I hope the young woman does not have this condition, but if she does there are interventions that are effective at halting its progress and possibly even returning her to her previous level of functioning. It's amazing to see the difference in 2016 versus what we had in the  mental health field 30 years ago.


   


            
 
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 Soon to be ex-mormon Tyler Glenn (of Neon Trees) Trashes Church in New Video
by Jon Marshall
 Jeff Holland in Tempe "furious with people who leave"
by Matter Unorganized
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by Swearing Elder
What Is The Most Offensive Thing You Have Heard/Read Come Out Of The Mouth Of A Profit Or A GA?
by Free2Live
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by Tessa
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I’m Proposing a Direct Link Between Mormonism’s Misogyny, a Passive Aggressive Culture and High Porn Use  
Posted: 21 April 2016 03:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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I don't think anyone would dispute the misogyny of Mormon culture.
That leads to women feeling undervalued and disrespected, and humans have a tendency to fight back against such processes whenever and however they can.
And Mormon culture is also widely held to be extremely passive aggressive, with its emphasis on 'niceness' and discouraging assertiveness, passive aggressive behaviour flows easily.
So, I am proposing that when you add those together, the marital bed is a good candidate for women to express, either consciously or unconsciously. their displeasure at their 2nd class status, by refusing to actively participate in pleasure, even if they have any energy left after child bearing and caring.
The result - the marital bed can never be a place of real surrender, so a place where deep soul satisfaction remains elusive. For women, pleasure cannot be sought with the one place you have power.
Hence the appeal of porn for Mormon males.
That have any resonance with anyone??
Daryl
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Posted: 21 April 2016 07:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Sounds reasonable to me. How about adding the need for women to have more cosmetic surgery as well? The pressure to look perfect physically.
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Posted: 21 April 2016 07:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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FreeLive:
Sounds reasonable to me. How about adding the need for women to have more cosmetic surgery as well? The pressure to look perfect physically.
 
 So, don't leave it there. Expand on where you see that fits.
Do you see them attempting to be more acceptable/lovable, but playing by the old rules?
Or if they increase their sexual appeal, do they get more power in their bedroom?
So if a great silicon rack increases power, does that help or hinder intimacy given the underlying dynamic which has not shifted one tittle?
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Posted: 21 April 2016 07:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Born Free:
FreeLive:
Sounds reasonable to me. How about adding the need for women to have more cosmetic surgery as well? The pressure to look perfect physically.
 
 So, don't leave it there. Expand on where you see that fits.
Do you see them attempting to be more acceptable/lovable, but playing by the old rules?
Or if they increase their sexual appeal, do they get more power in their bedroom?
So if a great silicon rack increases power, does that help or hinder intimacy given the underlying dynamic which has not shifted one tittle?
Daryl
 
 A few thoughts came to mind. One being lds women I have chatted with very recently, used terminology about other women being cuter than her/them and can do or be what ever. Another is in that RMs do intensely look at their own acceptibility being based on getting the hottest babe they can upon return home. Many self rank them self with regard to beliefs based on appearance. Not only is $$ considered a paradigm of righteousness but the beauty of the possession (woman) weighs in on the delusion.
 
These along with other under tow traditional thinking motivate these things. IMHO 
 
As far as the power involved I am too outside the realm of marital experience to offer a fitting response. However, I would suspect that porn would be a huge competitor to race with for the female.  Have Plastic surgery in order to attract keep and maintain marriage may be in the subfiles of the delusional thinking.
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Posted: 22 April 2016 04:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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When a woman reads a romance novel, the same part of her brain lights up as would a man's when he is looking at porn. Romance novels are women's porn; same effect, different visual. Romance novels are quite popular here in the Morridor.
 
IMO, most people like to get into a story that turns them on. Whether it's online or in a book. SOme don't need graphic detail, just the main story line gets 'em goin'. Mormon culture frowns on the viewing (but not on the reading) and stigmatizes it to a point where it becomes the forbidden fruit for men or boys with normal sex drives/hormones. People want forbidden fruit and the more you forbid it, the more enticing it becomes.
 
When I was TBM, talking/listening to other guys, I got the impression that many of their wives were not adventurous or willing to try things that the church deems as bad (which for some, bad=anything other than the missionary position). When intimacy gets boring, some guys look for an outlet.
 
When I still went to church and someone would bring up how porn was "wrecking marriages" I would bring up the fact that it takes two to tango and couples should dance as often and with as many new dance moves as they can. I don't mean to lay any blame, but the fact is that if a guy is satisfied with what he has, he won't go looking elsewhere. I imagine that goes for women as well.
 
This is not to defend porn, but it is not inherently "evil" (with a few exceptions like kids, etc). It all depends on what is watched, how one reacts to it, how one uses it, etc. Some make poor choices and get into things they shouldn't, etc.
 
 


   


Posted: 22 April 2016 04:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Hank:
When a woman reads a romance novel, the same part of her brain lights up as would a man's when he is looking at porn. Romance novels are women's porn; same effect, different visual. Romance novels are quite popular here in the Morridor.
 
IMO, most people like to get into a story that turns them on. Whether it's online or in a book. SOme don't need graphic detail, just the main story line gets 'em goin'. Mormon culture frowns on the viewing (but not on the reading) and stigmatizes it to a point where it becomes the forbidden fruit for men or boys with normal sex drives/hormones. People want forbidden fruit and the more you forbid it, the more enticing it becomes.
 
When I was TBM, talking/listening to other guys, I got the impression that many of their wives were not adventurous or willing to try things that the church deems as bad (which for some, bad=anything other than the missionary position). When intimacy gets boring, some guys look for an outlet.
 
When I still went to church and someone would bring up how porn was "wrecking marriages" I would bring up the fact that it takes two to tango and couples should dance as often and with as many new dance moves as they can. I don't mean to lay any blame, but the fact is that if a guy is satisfied with what he has, he won't go looking elsewhere. I imagine that goes for women as well.
 
This is not to defend porn, but it is not inherently "evil" (with a few exceptions like kids, etc). It all depends on what is watched, how one reacts to it, how one uses it, etc. Some make poor choices and get into things they shouldn't, etc.
 
 
 
Therein lies the crux of the issue. A child screams loudest for candy when he/she can't have any. 
 
It doesn't really matter from whence the prohibition springs, just that the taboo exists. Be it a frigid partner, or a controlling organization saying "you can't do this," the mere forbidding makes it a mystery. I might also add that someone who has never been tempted to view porn might eventually become curious with all the harping done about it. Combine several prohibitive elements, and you're actually creating a real problem.
 
I'm thinking the only reason Utah's state legislators believe porn to be a public health issue is because every 6 months they are reminded how prevalent it is thanks to all the cautionary tales from the brethren. That type of influence does not exist in any other state. Forget pollution, hunger, child abuse, unemployment or homelessness. The brethren say porn is a problem and they don't say much about any other issue, so God must want us to focus on porn.
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Posted: 22 April 2016 04:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Born Free:
I don't think anyone would dispute the misogyny of Mormon culture.
That leads to women feeling undervalued and disrespected, and humans have a tendency to fight back against such processes whenever and however they can.
And Mormon culture is also widely held to be extremely passive aggressive, with its emphasis on 'niceness' and discouraging assertiveness, passive aggressive behaviour flows easily.
So, I am proposing that when you add those together, the marital bed is a good candidate for women to express, either consciously or unconsciously. their displeasure at their 2nd class status, by refusing to actively participate in pleasure, even if they have any energy left after child bearing and caring.
The result - the marital bed can never be a place of real surrender, so a place where deep soul satisfaction remains elusive. For women, pleasure cannot be sought with the one place you have power.
Hence the appeal of porn for Mormon males.
That have any resonance with anyone??
Daryl
 
 I'd have to disagree with this reasoning, although mormonism cause all of the negative phenomenom you describe. My view on the reasons differ greatly.
 
Porn appeal for morgbots is the result of white bears syndrome. TSCC preaches endlessly about how one should continuously surpress ones sexuality thus causing obsessive behaviour towards everything relating to sex itself.
http://brainblogger.com/2009/12/09/white-bears-the-paradox-of-mental-suppression/
 
Misogyny is a result of patriachal organization. This inequality could actually date as far back as 500BCE when rabbinic Judaism and monotheism was conceived in Babylon. During this early Judaism the priests of the new religion erased all references to female deities from the holy texts and adopted the massculinity of the God of the armies called Yahweh from the Canaanite pantheon as the main characteristics of their new god whose name was so sacred that it couldn't even be spoken aloud.
Also Power in TSCC is exclusive to penishood, not even transgender can have it thus resulting naturally in a mindset how females cannot be leaders in any level. Equality is also regarded dangerous and recalling how top 15 have declared in the past how the feminists are among the greatest threats of modern age has... well there you go, very negative attitude towards the female sex.


   


Posted: 22 April 2016 12:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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I believe that there is a confluence of issues some American culture Some shall we say Mormon enhanced. What comes to mind is an unwillingness to condone people having sex. This is a Western cultural norm. Western culture really has not resolved that issue. You don’t want babies without daddies. So no sex before marriage, even petting is not condoned tradionally, there are fears around disease transmission.  Social stigma still exists around babies born outside of wedlock especially if the person is young. Being interested in sex openly has a social stigma it’s not polite to talk about in mixed company, you don’t want to be accused of being to free with your sexuality… Culturally men really don’t want to raise other men’s children. So there is a major practical consideration for woman if their partner is not going to be around. There is also the issue of education vs. reproduction that has not been resolved.  Needless to say our culture really needs some work in this area. All these traditional values become more strained with the introduction of advice from on high,  Not only is their culture baggage the normal people have to wade through but then the rules become inflexible with the addition of Big G, Big J, and Holy the Ghost.
There is virtually no condoned sexual behavior , No thinking about sex, no looking at sex- porn, no reading about sex(ladies), no petting, no self-pleasing, no sex outside of marriage. Birth control is discouraged. No talking about sex, no joking about sex don’t be to kinky when your married, no oral sex. There is also active enforcement of sexual standards bishop’s interviews. Snooping for the lord on roommates….I have even heard Mormons start changing the language around porn to mimic the language of drugs. “Using Porn”  
With systems like this in place sneaking anonymous porn in the privacy of your own house not much of a surprise. 
 
I think as our society has a lot of work aheard to resolve these issue and once again mormons are leading from behind. 
 


   


            
 
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Letter vs. Spirit  
Posted: 20 April 2016 09:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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     In my many years of church activity (but with many doubts too), one thing has become very clear to me, and that is that the men in priesthood leadership positions at all levels, in general are more concerned about how closely they are following the rules, regulations, policies, procedures, and handbooks than they are about the things human that Jesus taught like empathy, compassion, toleration, forgiveness, respect, and understanding.  They are so much like the Pharisees whom Jesus so fiercely chastised for their unbending adherence to the letter at the neglect of human needs.  I sense that this sums up the leading cause of the anger, disaffection, frustration, and doubt expressed in the numerous postings on this forum.  Letter above spirit -- that which killeth above that which giveth life (II Cor. 3:6). 

   


Posted: 20 April 2016 10:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Denker:
     In my many years of church activity (but with many doubts too), one thing has become very clear to me, and that is that the men in priesthood leadership positions at all levels, in general are more concerned about how closely they are following the rules, regulations, policies, procedures, and handbooks than they are about the things human that Jesus taught like empathy, compassion, toleration, forgiveness, respect, and understanding.  They are so much like the Pharisees whom Jesus so fiercely chastised for their unbending adherence to the letter at the neglect of human needs.  I sense that this sums up the leading cause of the anger, disaffection, frustration, and doubt expressed in the numberous postings on this forum.  Letter above spirit -- that which killeth above that which giveth life (II Cor. 3:6).
 
IMO it comes down to Reward vs. No Reward. Mormons are so caught up in the promised riches of the CK that "following the rules, regulations, policies, procedures, and handbooks" become the currency of this transaction.
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Posted: 20 April 2016 10:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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I think you're right. His way is pretty simple, really. I think He was telling us that... it's all about treating each other with love and compassion. Like when the Dalai Lama said kindness is the true religion. 

   


Posted: 20 April 2016 12:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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I agree. The handbooks are to be followed first, then advice from higher leaders, and then maybe feelings/emotional. 
 
When I have been in any sort of leadership position be it in Church or at work, i always went by my gut/feelings rather than say hold on. I would tell the people who worked under me to let me take the hit, and i always did.    
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Posted: 21 April 2016 03:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Denker:
     In my many years of church activity (but with many doubts too), one thing has become very clear to me, and that is that the men in priesthood leadership positions at all levels, in general are more concerned about how closely they are following the rules, regulations, policies, procedures, and handbooks than they are about the things human that Jesus taught like empathy, compassion, toleration, forgiveness, respect, and understanding.  They are so much like the Pharisees whom Jesus so fiercely chastised for their unbending adherence to the letter at the neglect of human needs.  I sense that this sums up the leading cause of the anger, disaffection, frustration, and doubt expressed in the numberous postings on this forum.  Letter above spirit -- that which killeth above that which giveth life (II Cor. 3:6).
 
 
I must ask - Is there any difference between the "letter" of the law and the "spirit" of the law to a Latter-Day Saint?  In my observation there is none.   Although they may talk about "letter" vs "spirit" they are always referring to other religions, not their own.
 
Consider - all those manuals, all those handbooks, all that law - are they not said to be written under inspiration of God, i.e. spirit?  Do they not have the official seal of the First Presidency?  As such, then "when the prophet speaks, the thinking is done" comes into play.  The letter of the manual IS the spirit of the law.  "Empathy, compassion, tolerance, respect, forgiveness" are all expressed by strictly adhering to the letter of the law.  How often do we read and feel from our own experiences - every songle one of those in leadership - and lay members for that matter - say that their actions that are exactingly the letter of LDS law ARE compassionate, respectful, etc.  They SHOW their love of the spirit of the law by sticking completely to the letter of the law.  Human needs ARE met by sticking exactly to the letter of the law.
 
Example of how this is applied.  One of the first real messages that made me question everything Mormon was on my mission at a conference.  The leader in question made the following pronouncement:  The Holy  Ghost only does one thing - bears witness to the truth of the Book of Mormon.  When members question pronouncements of the leadership, even if that questioning is only to ask in prayer for confirmation of those pronouncements, the spirit is grieved and you lose the HG.  You will NEVER receive any spiritual confirmation of a pronouncement of the leadership because that is not your place.  THE LEADER receives the confirmation and you must trust in that.  To question it is to violate your covenant to sustain the leadership.
 
So - to question what is in the handbook is to violate your covenants.  Those are the pronouncements of the leaders, and THEY receive confirmation.  THEY are writing the spirit of the law when they pen the letter of the law.  They are writing or speaking under guidance of the Spirit, no?   
 
 As an aside - to put as the leading cause of our anger, doubts, frustrations or even a majority of them - to chalk up such things to leadership sticking to the letter of the law is simply a more subtle way of expressing the old canard of "People leave the Church because they are offended by some member."  You are stating that there is actually nothing wrong with the law or the doctrines, or the books, teaching,etc.  That we are just "offended" when the leadership applies them.  If that is your conclusion, then I suggest you have MUCH yet to learn. 
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Posted: 21 April 2016 04:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
Hank
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I second what bradspencer wrote. 
 
Joining the church for me was based on a "spiritual experience" that I thought I had (come to find out about 50% of all people have a similar experience regrdless of religion). For me, I joined because I KNEW the church was true. I was a sponge to all the teachings and thought that everyone else there believed it to be true as well. If you believe it's gods true church, you do what it teaches so that you are worthy before the lord.
 
It didn't take long to see that even those who were the STP (same 10 people that ran the ward) violated some of the teachings. This confused me more than anything. It was shocking to realize that people who claimed to believe, sinned regularly. And I'm not talking about the person who glances at the women in the tight dress or drops an f bomb becuase the hit their thumb with a hammer. I'm talking about getting McDonald fries before counting tithing. Checking out a group of young girls in shorts and making comments about that. I'm talking about the stuff that is not reactionary and one has time to check themselves.
 
It was confusing to me. The gospel is supposed to touch people's hearts, change their behavior to please god. "Ye shall know them by their fruit", and all that crap. Yes, I was very naive at the time.
 
I put it on a shelf, but when I moved to Utah, it was even worse! I used to say that Utah is where testimonies go to die. The hypocracy here is rampant. The love of money, especially in Utah County is ridiculous. The good 'ol boys club is like nothing I've seen.
 
A church platitude states that the church is perfect, but the people aren't. Bullshit! Without the people, there is no church! The church is the people and I realized many years later that the gospel as taught by the church did not have the power to truly change hearts, at least not the power to sustain a change. I wasn't offended, I was saddened. This, in part, led me to more reading (of church only materials) to try to rebuild my spiritual strength. It did the opposite. There was enough material in old church history to condemn it.
 
I came to the conclusion that people are people. Imperfect. And always will be. I learned that nature often plays a bigger role than nurture (contradictory to church teachings). I can still give some level of respect to churches that teach ideals, but acknowledge human shortcomings and is ok with that. The mormon church teaches that god wants x, he told the prophets so, and if we don't do it, we're sinful. What a confidence destroyer that kind of thinking is...


   


Posted: 21 April 2016 10:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Denker
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bradspencer:
Denker:
     In my many years of church activity (but with many doubts too), one thing has become very clear to me, and that is that the men in priesthood leadership positions at all levels, in general are more concerned about how closely they are following the rules, regulations, policies, procedures, and handbooks than they are about the things human that Jesus taught like empathy, compassion, toleration, forgiveness, respect, and understanding.  They are so much like the Pharisees whom Jesus so fiercely chastised for their unbending adherence to the letter at the neglect of human needs.  I sense that this sums up the leading cause of the anger, disaffection, frustration, and doubt expressed in the numberous postings on this forum.  Letter above spirit -- that which killeth above that which giveth life (II Cor. 3:6).
 
 
I must ask - Is there any difference between the "letter" of the law and the "spirit" of the law to a Latter-Day Saint?  In my observation there is none.   Although they may talk about "letter" vs "spirit" they are always referring to other religions, not their own.
 
Consider - all those manuals, all those handbooks, all that law - are they not said to be written under inspiration of God, i.e. spirit?  Do they not have the official seal of the First Presidency?  As such, then "when the prophet speaks, the thinking is done" comes into play.  The letter of the manual IS the spirit of the law.  "Empathy, compassion, tolerance, respect, forgiveness" are all expressed by strictly adhering to the letter of the law.  How often do we read and feel from our own experiences - every songle one of those in leadership - and lay members for that matter - say that their actions that are exactingly the letter of LDS law ARE compassionate, respectful, etc.  They SHOW their love of the spirit of the law by sticking completely to the letter of the law.  Human needs ARE met by sticking exactly to the letter of the law.
 
Example of how this is applied.  One of the first real messages that made me question everything Mormon was on my mission at a conference.  The leader in question made the following pronouncement:  The Holy  Ghost only does one thing - bears witness to the truth of the Book of Mormon.  When members question pronouncements of the leadership, even if that questioning is only to ask in prayer for confirmation of those pronouncements, the spirit is grieved and you lose the HG.  You will NEVER receive any spiritual confirmation of a pronouncement of the leadership because that is not your place.  THE LEADER receives the confirmation and you must trust in that.  To question it is to violate your covenant to sustain the leadership.
 
So - to question what is in the handbook is to violate your covenants.  Those are the pronouncements of the leaders, and THEY receive confirmation.  THEY are writing the spirit of the law when they pen the letter of the law.  They are writing or speaking under guidance of the Spirit, no?   
 
 As an aside - to put as the leading cause of our anger, doubts, frustrations or even a majority of them - to chalk up such things to leadership sticking to the letter of the law is simply a more subtle way of expressing the old canard of "People leave the Church because they are offended by some member."  You are stating that there is actually nothing wrong with the law or the doctrines, or the books, teaching,etc.  That we are just "offended" when the leadership applies them.  If that is your conclusion, then I suggest you have MUCH yet to learn. 
 
 Bradspenser, I have never thought of the spirit in the way you have described, and I thank you for your insightful perspective.  What you have described reminds me of the "Infallibility of the Pope" doctrine and the tactics of the cult, the totalitarian regime, and the old club of Pharisees all rolled into one.  The leaders especially hate intellectuals and anybody or anything that threatens their power.
 
Let there be no mistake about my conclusion.  To say that there is nothing wrong with the "law", rules, code of conduct, regulations, policies, procedures, handbooks, manuals, doctrines, ordinances, teachings, books, scripture, etc. of the Church is to state the exact opposite of what I know to be true.  I could assemble a multi-page, single-spaced list of things wrong in all the above, and more.
 
I agree with the Dalai Lama that kindness is the true religion, and I believe that "The Community of Free Thinkers" is the true church.


   


Posted: 21 April 2016 04:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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bradspencer74
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Denker:
snip
 
 Bradspenser, I have never thought of the spirit in the way you have described, and I thank you for your insightful perspective.  What you have described reminds me of the "Infallibility of the Pope" doctrine and the tactics of the cult, the totalitarian regime, and the old club of Pharisees all rolled into one.  The leaders especially hate intellectuals and anybody or anything that threatens their power.
 
Let there be no mistake about my conclusion.  To say that there is nothing wrong with the "law", rules, code of conduct, regulations, policies, procedures, handbooks, manuals, doctrines, ordinances, teachings, books, scripture, etc. of the Church is to state the exact opposite of what I know to be true.  I could assemble a multi-page, single-spaced list of things wrong in all the above, and more.
 
I agree with the Dalai Lama that kindness is the true religion, and I believe that "The Community of Free Thinkers" is the true church.
 
 I didn't mean to suggest that you did not question the "law" as such.  Rather that disaffection, doubt, anger that we have are the result of the leadership's neglect of human needs, as you put it.  That sounds like a kinder, more paletable version of "Who offended you so that you left the Church."  
 
If you think of what we post here of our interactions with the Church over the years in the terms you express, it allows members to feel absolution from their actions.  The members and leaders did nothing wrong.  They were expressing love, etc.  It is our - the disaffected's - fault because we took offense at their expressions of love and compassion.  You agrieved us, not the other way around.  We offered you compassion and love through applying the General Handbook of Instructions and you rejected our love.  It is our fault for not understanding their real love, and it is our need to repent, not us.  That attitude is pervasive throughout the LDS Church and its members.  And, I think that you will find any mension to us of "Who offended you?" in any form will draw out a LOT of anger.  It certainly does so for me.
 
Honesly, I find it a bit odd that you don't know that the Church believes in an equivalent concept of papal infallability.  The church and the members certainly do believe in the infallability of priesthood, esp the Q15.  When they said this, they were speaking as a man; when they said that, they were speaking for God.  Joseph Smith's mistakes were the mistakes of the man, while all his "good" was from God.  Re-writing history to erase easily provable falsehoods.  Do not fault the errors in the Book of Mormon because they are errors of men.  Apologetics designed to change plain meanings of prophetic pronouncements to actually mean something entirely different.  It's all an expression of a doctrine of priesthood infallability. (And if fallability is found, they were simply speaking as men, not in their priesthood capacity.  So, they are still infallable.) 
 
Does this not sound like the doctrine of prophetic infallability to you? 
 

 
 
Imagine the privilege the Lord has given us of sustaining His prophet, whose counsel will be untainted, unvarnished, unmotivated by any personal aspiration, and utterly true!
Russell M. Nelson - Oct. 2014 General Conference
 
 
  Read that conference address and ask - Is this not EXACTLY what an organization using cultic psychological manipulation, totalitarianism - see my post comparing the LDS Church to the Kim family Cult of Personality in North Korea - and "papal" infallability would say?  If that is the case, what does it say about that organization?
 
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“Fitness is my religion and the gym is my temple” Fitness God 3:16
The Gym is my Church.  My sweat is my prayers.  My strength is my salvation.


   


Posted: 22 April 2016 06:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized
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bradspencer:
<snip snip snip>
 
So - to question what is in the handbook is to violate your covenants.  Those are the pronouncements of the leaders, and THEY receive confirmation.  THEY are writing the spirit of the law when they pen the letter of the law.  They are writing or speaking under guidance of the Spirit, no? 

</snip snip snip>
 
The problem with this is that the contents of the handbook are kept secret from the members. It's like they're saying "You always need to have the spirit with you so you won't run afoul of our rules. If you had the spirit, we wouldn't be having this conversation."
 
***WARNING***
 
This next section is brought to you by the Department of Too Much Information! 
 
Before I was in a bishopric, I had a vasectomy. When I was in the bishopric, I was reading the handbook and found that vasectomies were "strongly discouraged". Shit, did that ever lay the guilt on me! I actually blamed myself for a while for not having had the spirit in sufficient measure so I would have known that getting snipped was wrong!
 
How the #### are members supposed to know what is expected of them, and what they can or cannot do, if the information is hidden from them?
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You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler


   


Posted: 22 April 2016 08:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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Denker
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bradspencer:
Denker:
snip
 
 Bradspenser, I have never thought of the spirit in the way you have described, and I thank you for your insightful perspective.  What you have described reminds me of the "Infallibility of the Pope" doctrine and the tactics of the cult, the totalitarian regime, and the old club of Pharisees all rolled into one.  The leaders especially hate intellectuals and anybody or anything that threatens their power.
 
Let there be no mistake about my conclusion.  To say that there is nothing wrong with the "law", rules, code of conduct, regulations, policies, procedures, handbooks, manuals, doctrines, ordinances, teachings, books, scripture, etc. of the Church is to state the exact opposite of what I know to be true.  I could assemble a multi-page, single-spaced list of things wrong in all the above, and more.
 
I agree with the Dalai Lama that kindness is the true religion, and I believe that "The Community of Free Thinkers" is the true church.
 
 I didn't mean to suggest that you did not question the "law" as such.  Rather that disaffection, doubt, anger that we have are the result of the leadership's neglect of human needs, as you put it.  That sounds like a kinder, more paletable version of "Who offended you so that you left the Church."  
 
If you think of what we post here of our interactions with the Church over the years in the terms you express, it allows members to feel absolution from their actions.  The members and leaders did nothing wrong.  They were expressing love, etc.  It is our - the disaffected's - fault because we took offense at their expressions of love and compassion.  You agrieved us, not the other way around.  We offered you compassion and love through applying the General Handbook of Instructions and you rejected our love.  It is our fault for not understanding their real love, and it is our need to repent, not us.  That attitude is pervasive throughout the LDS Church and its members.  And, I think that you will find any mension to us of "Who offended you?" in any form will draw out a LOT of anger.  It certainly does so for me.
 
Honesly, I find it a bit odd that you don't know that the Church believes in an equivalent concept of papal infallability.  The church and the members certainly do believe in the infallability of priesthood, esp the Q15.  When they said this, they were speaking as a man; when they said that, they were speaking for God.  Joseph Smith's mistakes were the mistakes of the man, while all his "good" was from God.  Re-writing history to erase easily provable falsehoods.  Do not fault the errors in the Book of Mormon because they are errors of men.  Apologetics designed to change plain meanings of prophetic pronouncements to actually mean something entirely different.  It's all an expression of a doctrine of priesthood infallability. (And if fallability is found, they were simply speaking as men, not in their priesthood capacity.  So, they are still infallable.) 
 
Does this not sound like the doctrine of prophetic infallability to you? 
 

 
 
Imagine the privilege the Lord has given us of sustaining His prophet, whose counsel will be untainted, unvarnished, unmotivated by any personal aspiration, and utterly true!
Russell M. Nelson - Oct. 2014 General Conference
 
 
  Read that conference address and ask - Is this not EXACTLY what an organization using cultic psychological manipulation, totalitarianism - see my post comparing the LDS Church to the Kim family Cult of Personality in North Korea - and "papal" infallability would say?  If that is the case, what does it say about that organization?
 
 
 I believe that the Q15 realize they are fallible as men but when speaking as prophets they have the "pure knowlege" through the "sure witness of the spirit" that the counsel they give and the revelations they receive ARE infallible.


   


Posted: 22 April 2016 08:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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son of perdition
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Denker,  Mormonism is all about black and white "letter of the law" thinking.  One is either right or wrong.  There are no grey areas.  This kind of thinking is healthy for children but is meant to be out grown.    The church has no desire for people to develope beyond this point for control reasons.  
 
This argument is playing out in the Presidential election. The Republican party is fighting "Poiltical Correctness because it desolves black and white thinking.  
 
Example:  A marriage consists of one penis and one vagina.  The rational being that's what is needed to bring children in to the world.  Homosexual relations do not create children therefore should be discouraged and is wrong behavior. Marriages are survival strategies. That is why arranged marriage was the only sanctioned way to marry in the past.  Bringing children in to the world is extremely important for humans long term survival.  In the past when mortality rates were very high, people needed to have lots of children.  Now the survival rate of children is very high and the need to procreate is greatly reduced. Polygamy is a survival strategy.  Monogamy is a survival stategy.  In our present culture, monogamy is being touted as the correct stategy for a successful life.  On Kolob polygamy is the correct way of life.
 
 
 


   


Posted: 22 April 2016 09:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
Avatar
Denker
Member
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Joined  2007-12-06
 
  
 
Denker:
bradspencer:
Denker:
snip
 
 Bradspenser, I have never thought of the spirit in the way you have described, and I thank you for your insightful perspective.  What you have described reminds me of the "Infallibility of the Pope" doctrine and the tactics of the cult, the totalitarian regime, and the old club of Pharisees all rolled into one.  The leaders especially hate intellectuals and anybody or anything that threatens their power.
 
Let there be no mistake about my conclusion.  To say that there is nothing wrong with the "law", rules, code of conduct, regulations, policies, procedures, handbooks, manuals, doctrines, ordinances, teachings, books, scripture, etc. of the Church is to state the exact opposite of what I know to be true.  I could assemble a multi-page, single-spaced list of things wrong in all the above, and more.
 
I agree with the Dalai Lama that kindness is the true religion, and I believe that "The Community of Free Thinkers" is the true church.
 
 I didn't mean to suggest that you did not question the "law" as such.  Rather that disaffection, doubt, anger that we have are the result of the leadership's neglect of human needs, as you put it.  That sounds like a kinder, more paletable version of "Who offended you so that you left the Church."  
 
If you think of what we post here of our interactions with the Church over the years in the terms you express, it allows members to feel absolution from their actions.  The members and leaders did nothing wrong.  They were expressing love, etc.  It is our - the disaffected's - fault because we took offense at their expressions of love and compassion.  You agrieved us, not the other way around.  We offered you compassion and love through applying the General Handbook of Instructions and you rejected our love.  It is our fault for not understanding their real love, and it is our need to repent, not us.  That attitude is pervasive throughout the LDS Church and its members.  And, I think that you will find any mension to us of "Who offended you?" in any form will draw out a LOT of anger.  It certainly does so for me.
 
Honesly, I find it a bit odd that you don't know that the Church believes in an equivalent concept of papal infallability.  The church and the members certainly do believe in the infallability of priesthood, esp the Q15.  When they said this, they were speaking as a man; when they said that, they were speaking for God.  Joseph Smith's mistakes were the mistakes of the man, while all his "good" was from God.  Re-writing history to erase easily provable falsehoods.  Do not fault the errors in the Book of Mormon because they are errors of men.  Apologetics designed to change plain meanings of prophetic pronouncements to actually mean something entirely different.  It's all an expression of a doctrine of priesthood infallability. (And if fallability is found, they were simply speaking as men, not in their priesthood capacity.  So, they are still infallable.) 
 
Does this not sound like the doctrine of prophetic infallability to you? 
 

 
 
Imagine the privilege the Lord has given us of sustaining His prophet, whose counsel will be untainted, unvarnished, unmotivated by any personal aspiration, and utterly true!
Russell M. Nelson - Oct. 2014 General Conference
 
 
  Read that conference address and ask - Is this not EXACTLY what an organization using cultic psychological manipulation, totalitarianism - see my post comparing the LDS Church to the Kim family Cult of Personality in North Korea - and "papal" infallability would say?  If that is the case, what does it say about that organization?
 
 
 I believe that the Q15 realize they are fallible as men but when speaking as prophets they have the "pure knowlege" through the "sure witness of the spirit" that the counsel they give and the revelations they receive ARE infallible.
 
 I suddenly detected a flaw in the wording of my own statement above and therefore the need to revise it to make sure the reader can clearly distinguish the part I myself believe from the part the Q15 believe about themselves.  The first half of the statement is therefore revised to read as follows: "I believe that the Q15 realize they are fallible as men but when THEY feel THEY are speaking as prophets, they believe THEY have the "pure knowledge" through ... 


   


Posted: 22 April 2016 09:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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incawhite
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Imagine the privilege the Lord has given us of sustaining His prophet, whose counsel will be untainted, unvarnished, unmotivated by any personal aspiration, and utterly true!
Russell M. Nelson - Oct. 2014 General Conference
 
       
  
Matthew 7:15 
Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.  
Jeremiah 23:16
This is what the LORD Almighty says: "Do not listen to what the prophets are prophesying to you; they fill you with false hopes. They speak visions from their own minds, not from the mouth of the LORD. 
 Signature
Delusion definition:
A false belief held despite strong evidence against it.
Book of Mormon fraudhttp://youtu.be/T7dFkl7EaHY
Priesthood Fraudhttps://youtu.be/Oq14o3hxsRk
Mormonism-Cult mind controlhttps://youtu.be/VUsOHsZIiA4


   


Posted: 22 April 2016 12:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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bradspencer74
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Joined  2010-01-18
 
  
 
Denker:
Denker:
snip
 
 
 I believe that the Q15 realize they are fallible as men but when speaking as prophets they have the "pure knowlege" through the "sure witness of the spirit" that the counsel they give and the revelations they receive ARE infallible.
 
 I suddenly detected a flaw in the wording of my own statement above and therefore the need to revise it to make sure the reader can clearly distinguish the part I myself believe from the part the Q15 believe about themselves.  The first half of the statement is therefore revised to read as follows: "I believe that the Q15 realize they are fallible as men but when THEY feel THEY are speaking as prophets, they believe THEY have the "pure knowledge" through ... 
 
Accepted that you misstyped.  I read the first statement and was rather confused.  At any rate. 
 
IMO, you are being far too generous.  From the descriptions I have heard of the deliberation process of the Q15 (a conversation I had on my mission with John Carmack, in what was a very rare moment of blatent honesty from a GA) and what is presented in the Congressional Record of the Reed Smoot hearings from several apostles and Joseph F Smith makes it clear that they KNOW they do not have any of those things.  They interpret the vote on an issue as the "witness of the spirit" nothing more.  Nelson makes that clear as well, although he presents it as unanimous voting (it isn't, as there are dissenters in a number of votes who choose to not-oppose and accept the will of the majority). 
 
It would get into the contents of my conversation with Carmack which was mostly really dry - as an aside, it wasn't anything magical or special dispensation to a lowly missionary.  I was asked to work with the Missionary department testing new mission software and he came out to my mission to see how the program worked from the "mission field side" on assignment - but i was stunned that he answered me so frankly, part of which was telling me that the "faces" people see in general conference are often very different from the actual personalities of the men in day to day operations.
 
If they think they are speaking as prophets with pure knowledge, etc - why do they submit their talks for revision AFTER they are pronounced from the pulpit, to the correlating committee and changes are made. (If you've never done so, watch a conference vid and compare the talks given vocally to the Ensign and the CR - there are always changes, deletions, additions, etc.  Something odd to as speaking with pure knowledge, etc.
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“Fitness is my religion and the gym is my temple” Fitness God 3:16
The Gym is my Church.  My sweat is my prayers.  My strength is my salvation.


   


Posted: 22 April 2016 01:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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bradspencer74
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son of perdition:
Denker,  Mormonism is all about black and white "letter of the law" thinking.  One is either right or wrong.  There are no grey areas.  This kind of thinking is healthy for young children but is meant to be out grown.    The church has no desire for people to develope beyond this point for control reasons.  
 
This argument is playing out in the Presidential election. The Republican party is fighting "Poiltical Correctness because it desolves black and white thinking.  
 
 
 
 I could give a shout of AMEN if I were still a theist.  Particularly during my lifetime, the elimination of "grey area thinking" and speculative mormonism has grown TREMENDOUSLY.  One of the big reasons for correlation was to stamp out the process of learning how to apply critical and abstract thinking to mormon doctrine.  ANY area that was not boiled down to a black/white, yes/no, sin/not sin was systematically eliminated.  
 
Simple example - read some of Orson Pratt's writings and ask yourself, would a single WORD of that come from any LDS person living today? BH Roberts?  Even a pseudointellectual apologist like Truman Madsen would be seriously frowned on, if not silenced (look at how his writings changed over time, from somewhat scholarly using little known sources to typical LDS kindergarten drivel.)  Read some Ensigns and Improvement Eras from pre-correlation (if you can find them) - and take a look at the difference in simply WHAT is presented and HOW it is presented.   The best explanation for the "dumbing down" of mormonism is to try to quash questions and eliminate critical thought and have the leaders do the thinking for you.
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“Fitness is my religion and the gym is my temple” Fitness God 3:16
The Gym is my Church.  My sweat is my prayers.  My strength is my salvation.


   


            
 
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The Best of Jeremy Runnells  
Posted: 20 April 2016 06:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
Avatar
WinstonSmith
Long Timer
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Joined  2011-09-26
 
  
 
I just finished listening to Jeremy Runnells leaked video http://www.lifeaftermormonism.net/video/leaked-jeremy-runnells-lds-church-court-excommunication?xg_source=activity of his "Khurch Kangaroo Kourt (KKK). The following are some of my favorit excerpts:
 
"I don't know how to repent from the truth"

"I don't know how to repent from verified ‘Essay' facts?"

"Yesterday's Anti-Mormon lies are todays ‘Essays'

"I'm not discrediting the Church, The Church's ‘Essays' are discrediting the Church."

"Hiding or withholding important information from members and investigators, you are literally obstructing the ‘free agency' of members of the church."

*****
I absolutely love that one: "Obstruction of Agency"
*****

 
"I went to official channels to seek answers to my doubts; and this was after dealing with a year of frustration with dealing with unofficial Mormon Apologist. These guys who are no more legitimate or official then the crazy high priest guy that everybody rolls their eyes to in Sunday School."

"The real problem here is not whether or not I have been spreading falsehoods or lies. I've never been accused of that. It's that I am public about this information. The real problem is that the Church has a problem with ‘Freedom of Expression'. The Church claims to believe in ‘free agency', but it doesn't."

"...This is the Church's own ‘Essay' "Race and the Priesthood": It's discrediting the Church; it's discrediting the Book of Mormon; it's discrediting every prophet from Brigham Young all the way to Harold B. Lee."
 
This audio or video should be required listening or viewing of every Mormon investigator. 
 Signature
“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”  -Marcus Aurelius


   


Posted: 20 April 2016 06:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Jon Marshall
Long Timer
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Joined  2012-08-22
 
  
 
I loved everything he said. 
 
I was so mad when the SP would not let his friend in to help interpret. What an ass hat. 
 Signature http://www.jonathankmarshall.blogspot.com


   


Posted: 20 April 2016 07:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
Avatar
WinstonSmith
Long Timer
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Joined  2011-09-26
 
  
 
Jon Marshall:
I loved everything he said. 
 
I was so mad when the SP would not let his friend in to help interpret. What an ass hat. 
 
I was thinking of some other explicit adjectives to call this guy, but refrained from writting them. On the more civil side of things, what is a word that describes a person (SP) who acts in this mannor, lacking any ethics, integrity and morality while under mind control. It was as if the SP could not act under his own agency---then again JR covered that.
 
I think this video has the potential to become a major PR crisis for the Church.
 
My prediction is that SP will begin to exercise measures to prevent recordings of these KKK (Khurch Kangaroo Kourts) meetings.  If so the potential backlash will be huge---IMO
 Signature
“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”  -Marcus Aurelius


   


Posted: 20 April 2016 07:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
Avatar
WinstonSmith
Long Timer
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Joined  2011-09-26
 
  
 
I can't believe I forgot this one:
 
JR: "Is Salt Lake involved?"
 
SP: does not respond
 
JR: "Okay, you are not going to answer that." 
 Signature
“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”  -Marcus Aurelius


   


Posted: 20 April 2016 08:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
Free2Live
Long Timer
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Joined  2012-09-01
 
  
 
WinstonSmith:
Jon Marshall:
I loved everything he said. 
 
I was so mad when the SP would not let his friend in to help interpret. What an ass hat. 
 
I was thinking of some other explicit adjectives to call this guy, but refrained from writting them. On the more civil side of things, what is a word that describes a person (SP) who acts in this mannor, lacking any ethics, integrity and morality while under mind control. It was as if the SP could not act under his own agency---then again JR covered that.
 
I think this video has the potential to become a major PR crisis for the Church.
 
My prediction is that SP will begin to exercise measures to prevent recordings of these KKK (Khurch Kangaroo Kourts) meetings.  If so the potential backlash will be huge---IMO
 
Not just the SP but the entire cult called a church will have a backlash. Pat downs and full body hugs of supposed love groping the accused in a search for electronic recording devices is not out of the corporations possibilities. I witnessed a friend get such a fake hug grope at  a Home Depot. The SP member made the attack in a feigned friendly guesture (court jesture). My friend said that he was being checked to see if he was wearing garments. This crap happens! I witnessed it in a retail box store. Watch for future court of love stories and see how this plays out in security of the 'image' of the great and spacious cult corporation.
 
 Signature
One is as committed into testimony as much as they pay into the belief in dollars, time, talent and energy. Afterall, it has to be true once you have signed the lifetime subscription and you have a track record to defend.


   


Posted: 20 April 2016 08:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
Long Timer
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Joined  2010-05-22
 
  
 
WinstonSmith:
Jon Marshall:
I loved everything he said. 
 
I was so mad when the SP would not let his friend in to help interpret. What an ass hat. 
 
I was thinking of some other explicit adjectives to call this guy, but refrained from writting them. On the more civil side of things, what is a word that describes a person (SP) who acts in this mannor, lacking any ethics, integrity and morality while under mind control. It was as if the SP could not act under his own agency---then again JR covered that.
 
I think this video has the potential to become a major PR crisis for the Church.
 
My prediction is that SP will begin to exercise measures to prevent recordings of these KKK (Khurch Kangaroo Kourts) meetings.  If so the potential backlash will be huge---IMO
 
 There are flash drive recorders now that are so small, they could be attached under the arm or somewhere.  The scary part would be if they asked the victim if they were recording--considering that most PostMos have high integrity--many times--more so than the guys holding the court.
 Signature
I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 20 April 2016 10:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
Avatar
WinstonSmith
Long Timer
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Joined  2011-09-26
 
  
 
Strong Free & Thankful:
WinstonSmith:
Jon Marshall:
I loved everything he said. 
 
I was so mad when the SP would not let his friend in to help interpret. What an ass hat. 
 
I was thinking of some other explicit adjectives to call this guy, but refrained from writting them. On the more civil side of things, what is a word that describes a person (SP) who acts in this mannor, lacking any ethics, integrity and morality while under mind control. It was as if the SP could not act under his own agency---then again JR covered that.
 
I think this video has the potential to become a major PR crisis for the Church.
 
My prediction is that SP will begin to exercise measures to prevent recordings of these KKK (Khurch Kangaroo Kourts) meetings.  If so the potential backlash will be huge---IMO
 
 There are flash drive recorders now that are so small, they could be attached under the arm or somewhere.  The scary part would be if they asked the victim if they were recording--considering that most PostMos have high integrity--many times--more so than the guys holding the court.
 
 I am trying to remember, but don't some states have laws that allow for the recording of such meetings? If so, it would be nice to know which ones do.
 Signature
“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”  -Marcus Aurelius


   


Posted: 20 April 2016 10:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
Hank
Long Timer
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Joined  2014-08-26
 
  
 
In Utah, only one person who is involved in an exchange has to be aware of the recording. If one asked, then the other person would have to state that they were recording. They have the right to keep recording. 

   


Posted: 20 April 2016 11:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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WinstonSmith
Long Timer
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Joined  2011-09-26
 
  
 
Hank:
In Utah, only one person who is involved in an exchange has to be aware of the recording. If one asked, then the other person would have to state that they were recording. They have the right to keep recording.
I guess that this would prevent any awkward 'pat downs'.
 
I am trying to think of 'hypotheticals' in this situation. What would be the potential response of a SP?
 
To me it seems a bit of a conundrum: Would they proceed knowing they are being recorded and that the video/audio potentially would be submitted as a tithe to the google gods?
 
Would the cancel the court?
 
Would they proceed, in 'secret combination', not allowing the accussed to attend the court?  
 Signature
“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”  -Marcus Aurelius


   


Posted: 20 April 2016 12:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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Jon Marshall
Long Timer
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Joined  2012-08-22
 
  
 
I can see the Church now making sure all electronic devices are not allowed in the room. More and more audio and videos are getting out. The Church will def find a way to make themselves less vulnerable when it comes to that.
 
 The audio and videos are sure showing how much the leadership in the Stakes and Wards where these are taking place don't know much of anything when it comes to History or how to handle questions that are directly coming from the Church essays and or quotes from past and present leaders. 
 
 
 Signature http://www.jonathankmarshall.blogspot.com


   


Posted: 20 April 2016 12:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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ellen
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Joined  2008-05-28
 
  
 
One problem here is that the unfairness here is two sided.  It is clearly not the sort of court where Jeremy could have a conversation with the stake president or engage the others, or to not let him have the interpreter he was comfortable with.
 
But on the other hand, during the portion where the stake president read Jeremy's quotes it is quite clear that Jeremy is, in fact, in direct and clear open opposition to the church. The stake president's job is to decide if a member is, or isn't, an apostate.  The stake president's job is not to answer every question Jeremy asks him.  
 
John Dehlin's stake president had conversations with Dehlin for months, many conversations.  Still excommunicated.  
 
And even we out here in the postmo world, supporters of what Jeremy has written and said, have to admit that it is technically reasonable within the church parameters for a stake president to 1) hold a court for him and 2) excommunicate him.   Jeremy has been very open and blunt,  and he has been very public.  
 
The detail that made me the most uncomfortable however is not that it was recorded, because I understand especially Jeremy wanting to do that (I assume he was the one who recorded it) so that he could more fully understand what they were saying to him.  However, it is the publishing of it.  I realize that it was not Jeremy who published it.  But he had to share it in the first place for someone else to put it out there.  And the knowledge that church leaders have now that these excommunications and conversations with them can be recorded and virally published is having a chilling effect on what any church leader will say.  
 
I think the fact that John Dehlin recorded his own excommunication and the subsequent publication of that conversation put a great chill on these courts so they are even less likely to be a two-sided conversation than they even were in the past.  Why would church leaders want to engage in any sort of back and forth when they fully know that the whole conversation is most likely being recorded and will be public?   
 
I would be very uncomfortable if someone recorded a conversation with me without my knowledge and put it out there on the internet.  So in that sense, I become a bit sympathetic to the church here.  


   


Posted: 20 April 2016 12:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
peace out
Long Timer
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Joined  2010-06-02
 
  
 
They really should have their CTR rings taken away.
 
Blows my mind it was all right their in their face and the high council  would not even look.
 
 
I though he gave a nice speech in his defense. I was a little floored they would not respond the letter or read the CES letter even in prep for the" court", not even one section. The high council men giving his testimony was kind of a sad commentary, because I feel emotion and I think it works for me it it's real! So you're out!!! Jeremy has cause to be very proud of himself. I guess there is quite a steep price to pay for poor critical thinking skills.3 hours on Sunday plus 10% of your salary and submission to the group think right or wrong.
Jeremy had little choice but to X them. But it was done with Love.
They can always come back to the facts, I'm sure we will except them with open arms and rejoice with our lost brethren.
 
How Great will be our Joy
 


   


Posted: 20 April 2016 01:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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Morethanmo
Long Timer
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Joined  2014-07-24
 
  
 
ellen:
One problem here is that the unfairness here is two sided.  It is clearly not the sort of court where Jeremy could have a conversation with the stake president or engage the others, or to not let him have the interpreter he was comfortable with.
 
But on the other hand, during the portion where the stake president read Jeremy's quotes it is quite clear that Jeremy is, in fact, in direct and clear open opposition to the church. The stake president's job is to decide if a member is, or isn't, an apostate.  The stake president's job is not to answer every question Jeremy asks him.  
 
John Dehlin's stake president had conversations with Dehlin for months, many conversations.  Still excommunicated.  
 
And even we out here in the postmo world, supporters of what Jeremy has written and said, have to admit that it is technically reasonable within the church parameters for a stake president to 1) hold a court for him and 2) excommunicate him.   Jeremy has been very open and blunt,  and he has been very public.  
 
The detail that made me the most uncomfortable however is not that it was recorded, because I understand especially Jeremy wanting to do that (I assume he was the one who recorded it) so that he could more fully understand what they were saying to him.  However, it is the publishing of it.  I realize that it was not Jeremy who published it.  But he had to share it in the first place for someone else to put it out there.  And the knowledge that church leaders have now that these excommunications and conversations with them can be recorded and virally published is having a chilling effect on what any church leader will say.  
 
I think the fact that John Dehlin recorded his own excommunication and the subsequent publication of that conversation put a great chill on these courts so they are even less likely to be a two-sided conversation than they even were in the past.  Why would church leaders want to engage in any sort of back and forth when they fully know that the whole conversation is most likely being recorded and will be public?   
 
I would be very uncomfortable if someone recorded a conversation with me without my knowledge and put it out there on the internet.  So in that sense, I become a bit sympathetic to the church here.  
 Interesting take, though I disagree with your stance on not recording video someone since it would make them uncomfortable. 
 
It is Jeremy's court and he isn't required to keep his own court secret. 
 
IMHO Many injustices have been captured via secret recording/photo/video. I would rather expose corruption and cowardice for what it is than allow these men to break hearts in the shadows. Nothing gives them that right--especially not god.
 
[spelling correction] 
 Signature
__________________________________________

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
~Epicurus
__________________________________________


   


Posted: 20 April 2016 01:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
Avatar
WinstonSmith
Long Timer
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Joined  2011-09-26
 
  
 
ellen:
One problem here is that the unfairness here is two sided.  It is clearly not the sort of court where Jeremy could have a conversation with the stake president or engage the others, or to not let him have the interpreter he was comfortable with.
 
But on the other hand, during the portion where the stake president read Jeremy's quotes it is quite clear that Jeremy is, in fact, in direct and clear open opposition to the church. The stake president's job is to decide if a member is, or isn't, an apostate.  The stake president's job is not to answer every question Jeremy asks him.  
 
John Dehlin's stake president had conversations with Dehlin for months, many conversations.  Still excommunicated.  
 
And even we out here in the postmo world, supporters of what Jeremy has written and said, have to admit that it is technically reasonable within the church parameters for a stake president to 1) hold a court for him and 2) excommunicate him.   Jeremy has been very open and blunt,  and he has been very public.  
 
The detail that made me the most uncomfortable however is not that it was recorded, because I understand especially Jeremy wanting to do that (I assume he was the one who recorded it) so that he could more fully understand what they were saying to him.  However, it is the publishing of it.  I realize that it was not Jeremy who published it.  But he had to share it in the first place for someone else to put it out there.  And the knowledge that church leaders have now that these excommunications and conversations with them can be recorded and virally published is having a chilling effect on what any church leader will say.  
 
I think the fact that John Dehlin recorded his own excommunication and the subsequent publication of that conversation put a great chill on these courts so they are even less likely to be a two-sided conversation than they even were in the past.  Why would church leaders want to engage in any sort of back and forth when they fully know that the whole conversation is most likely being recorded and will be public?   
 
I would be very uncomfortable if someone recorded a conversation with me without my knowledge and put it out there on the internet.  So in that sense, I become a bit sympathetic to the church here.  
 
I first had the same reaction, however: Jeremy was stonewalled by the SP. Jeremy deserved answers to his questions, and if the SP could not answer them, then the SP should have went to his Area Authority. If the area authority could not answer he should have gone up the chain of command.
 
If I remember correctly, the quotes read by the SP from Jeremy came from his Mormon Stories podcast---which occured long after this SP was derelict in his duty, and Jeremy was frustrated. The Church cannot have it both ways. Also let's not forget that the SP made a secret covenant in the temple to give his own life to the Church if necessary. So I become less sympathetic to the SP in that a posted recording is hardly dying for the Church. The SP accepted his calling, he stonewalled, he was derelict, and possibly complicit. So I am not sure I care if it is "chilling" to a church leader to be recorded. If they are right, what do they have to be afraid of?
 
The ability to record and post to the world, shifts the balance of power away from the Church---it is a position, I am not sure they have ever experience, and they do not like it.
 
The Church nor the SP are the victims here. 
 
 Signature
“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”  -Marcus Aurelius


   


Posted: 20 April 2016 01:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
Avatar
Born Free
Long Timer
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Joined  2005-01-07
 
  
 
ellen:
One problem here is that the unfairness here is two sided.  It is clearly not the sort of court where Jeremy could have a conversation with the stake president or engage the others, or to not let him have the interpreter he was comfortable with.
 
But on the other hand, during the portion where the stake president read Jeremy's quotes it is quite clear that Jeremy is, in fact, in direct and clear open opposition to the church. The stake president's job is to decide if a member is, or isn't, an apostate.  The stake president's job is not to answer every question Jeremy asks him.  
 
John Dehlin's stake president had conversations with Dehlin for months, many conversations.  Still excommunicated.  
 
And even we out here in the postmo world, supporters of what Jeremy has written and said, have to admit that it is technically reasonable within the church parameters for a stake president to 1) hold a court for him and 2) excommunicate him.   Jeremy has been very open and blunt,  and he has been very public.  
 
The detail that made me the most uncomfortable however is not that it was recorded, because I understand especially Jeremy wanting to do that (I assume he was the one who recorded it) so that he could more fully understand what they were saying to him.  However, it is the publishing of it.  I realize that it was not Jeremy who published it.  But he had to share it in the first place for someone else to put it out there.  And the knowledge that church leaders have now that these excommunications and conversations with them can be recorded and virally published is having a chilling effect on what any church leader will say.  
 
I think the fact that John Dehlin recorded his own excommunication and the subsequent publication of that conversation put a great chill on these courts so they are even less likely to be a two-sided conversation than they even were in the past.  Why would church leaders want to engage in any sort of back and forth when they fully know that the whole conversation is most likely being recorded and will be public?   
 
I would be very uncomfortable if someone recorded a conversation with me without my knowledge and put it out there on the internet.  So in that sense, I become a bit sympathetic to the church here.  
 
I believe a strong argument could be mounted that Jeremy's stance shifted over time in the face of first total and prolonged passivity and indifference in response to his questions, through to a more assertive stance, in response to their shifting position.
He was given commitments, all very clearly recorded, to provide answers to his questions, and these were patently not kept. Right there is justifiable grounds for his excommunication of them, to my mind. They showed him no respect.
I'd argue that process placed the Church and its representatives in contempt of a very reasonable right of a member to answers to substantive questions that run to the very heart of sustained belief.
Many of the charges the Church brought were related to activity subsequent to the original questions that were left unanswered. Leaders knew they were on a flogging to nothing with regard to those answers. Answering could not do anything except incriminate them, so they fell back on Plans B thru X, with lavish servings of bullying.
 
I'd argue your focus on concealed recording misses the real issue. Only people or organisations that engage dishonest, illegal or faulty process have anything to fear from recordings, on the proviso that the recordings are not edited.
Church Courts have a massive power differential by design, which is often pushed to the maximum by the denial of the defendent of counsel, which it is my understanding they have a right to. Most defendants before these courts have no idea of that right.
Recording proceedings assists keep a 'straight' recording of the meeting, I'd argue, something ehich is extremely hard to do when you are in the hot seat.
 
Daryl 
PS: I don't believe any of the parties that initially placed this recording into the public arena, would have done so without permission. I can understand that Jeremy chose not to do so himself.
 
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‘and I am responsible for the metaphors that populate my mind.’ Daryl


   


Posted: 21 April 2016 02:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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ellen:
One problem here is that the unfairness here is two sided.  It is clearly not the sort of court where Jeremy could have a conversation with the stake president or engage the others, or to not let him have the interpreter he was comfortable with.
 
But on the other hand, during the portion where the stake president read Jeremy's quotes it is quite clear that Jeremy is, in fact, in direct and clear open opposition to the church. The stake president's job is to decide if a member is, or isn't, an apostate.  The stake president's job is not to answer every question Jeremy asks him.  
 
John Dehlin's stake president had conversations with Dehlin for months, many conversations.  Still excommunicated.  
 
And even we out here in the postmo world, supporters of what Jeremy has written and said, have to admit that it is technically reasonable within the church parameters for a stake president to 1) hold a court for him and 2) excommunicate him.   Jeremy has been very open and blunt,  and he has been very public.  
 
The detail that made me the most uncomfortable however is not that it was recorded, because I understand especially Jeremy wanting to do that (I assume he was the one who recorded it) so that he could more fully understand what they were saying to him.  However, it is the publishing of it.  I realize that it was not Jeremy who published it.  But he had to share it in the first place for someone else to put it out there.  And the knowledge that church leaders have now that these excommunications and conversations with them can be recorded and virally published is having a chilling effect on what any church leader will say.  
 
I think the fact that John Dehlin recorded his own excommunication and the subsequent publication of that conversation put a great chill on these courts so they are even less likely to be a two-sided conversation than they even were in the past.  Why would church leaders want to engage in any sort of back and forth when they fully know that the whole conversation is most likely being recorded and will be public?   
 
I would be very uncomfortable if someone recorded a conversation with me without my knowledge and put it out there on the internet.  So in that sense, I become a bit sympathetic to the church here.  
 
I agree that it is generally unethical to record and share what is presumed to be a private communication. Falls under the 'Don't Be a Jerk' chapter in the moral handbook.
 
However, it was clear that this was no genuine communication or sincere exchange, particularly from the LDS leadership. The SP's approach was to play corporate frontman, follow a script, and essentially 'speak to the cameras'.  So no sympathy whatsoever here, and I have zero sense that Jeremy is being unfair in sharing (accidentally or not) how he was being railroaded out of the church.


   


Posted: 21 April 2016 04:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
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A few thoughts...
 
First off, everyone knew what the outcome of this court would be, including Jeremy, which is why he already had his resignation prepared. Everyone knows that these courts aren't really courts, as in justice. They presume guilt, which is why they are brought into motion, and the accused is simply given an opportunity to repent and take back what they've said.
 
In the line of work I'm in, I will record an interview, with only myself knowing. This way if it went to court, there would not be any "he said, she said". I have proof of the statement. Jeremy's recording gives proof as to how these courts operate. The lack of willingness to sincerely "save the soul", but only the goal to try to sweep the problem away.
 
From the SP and others perspective, they can not give any answers becuase whatever faith they have is based strictly on emotion and whitewashed history. Not facts. They know there are no good answers to many of Jeremy's questions. So they do all that they can...bare their testimony. That's all they got....
 
Good fences make for good neighbors. Good recording devices make for honest interactions. On the rare times that I do inform my interviewee that I was recording, they became more professional and thoughtful in their responses. And more guarded. I think the church will change how they hold court in an effort to keep recording devices out, even if they are aware of them being present. I think that it'll eventually work like this: they will specifically ask the accused about recording/recording devices. When the accused responds in the affrimative, they will ask that the recorder be turned off. If the accused refuses, then court will end, be held later in private with the refusal to turn off the recorder as proof that the accusations are true and the accused is worthy of ex-ing.
 
If the accused does record, but denies recording when asked, and they post it, then they are open to lawsuit from the church.


   


Posted: 21 April 2016 08:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
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In agreement with so much that you all are saying.   From the beginning, when Jeremy first wrote down his letter, his leaders didn't do much to try to help him.  He was just left swinging.  
 
What I'm trying to say is that by the time we get to this excommunication hearing -- 2016 -- Jeremy has already been very vocal in print and in media about his disassociation from the teachings of the church for at least a couple of years.  That stake president only had to read about two of those quotes of Jeremy's from Mormon Stories to be able to shut the door on a pretty clear case against Jeremy.   
 
There was no question these church leaders knew that Jeremy Runnells was going to be as public about the process as possible.  Anything they said, any answer they gave him, they knew at this point would be splashed all over the media at least locally.  I'm pretty sure as well that the local leadership had some directive from higher up.
 
However, to be fair, Jeremy Runnells did not enter that room with any intention to try to get back into the good graces of happy membership.  And if there is no hope of that, there is no reason whatsoever for the men in the room to extend the conversation.  Jeremy went into that room very prepared with what he was going to say to them, with his resignation letter in hand, and hidden recorder on wrist or wherever it was, and then stood on a truck afterwards with a microphone in his hand to tell friends and waiting media that he excommunicated the LDS church.   
 
I'm not trying to defend the church but I don't see Jeremy being a hero either.  Not in this.  His CES letter is one thing, the way he went about this was another.   


   


Posted: 21 April 2016 03:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
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ellen:
In agreement with so much that you all are saying.   From the beginning, when Jeremy first wrote down his letter, his leaders didn't do much to try to help him.  He was just left swinging.  
 
What I'm trying to say is that by the time we get to this excommunication hearing -- 2016 -- Jeremy has already been very vocal in print and in media about his disassociation from the teachings of the church for at least a couple of years.  That stake president only had to read about two of those quotes of Jeremy's from Mormon Stories to be able to shut the door on a pretty clear case against Jeremy.   
 
There was no question these church leaders knew that Jeremy Runnells was going to be as public about the process as possible.  Anything they said, any answer they gave him, they knew at this point would be splashed all over the media at least locally.  I'm pretty sure as well that the local leadership had some directive from higher up.
 
However, to be fair, Jeremy Runnells did not enter that room with any intention to try to get back into the good graces of happy membership.  And if there is no hope of that, there is no reason whatsoever for the men in the room to extend the conversation.  Jeremy went into that room very prepared with what he was going to say to them, with his resignation letter in hand, and hidden recorder on wrist or wherever it was, and then stood on a truck afterwards with a microphone in his hand to tell friends and waiting media that he excommunicated the LDS church.   
 
I'm not trying to defend the church but I don't see Jeremy being a hero either.  Not in this.  His CES letter is one thing, the way he went about this was another.   
 
 Good graces of happy membership? 
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“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
~Epicurus
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Posted: 21 April 2016 04:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]   

   
 
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ellen:
In agreement with so much that you all are saying.   From the beginning, when Jeremy first wrote down his letter, his leaders didn't do much to try to help him.  He was just left swinging.  
 
What I'm trying to say is that by the time we get to this excommunication hearing -- 2016 -- Jeremy has already been very vocal in print and in media about his disassociation from the teachings of the church for at least a couple of years.  That stake president only had to read about two of those quotes of Jeremy's from Mormon Stories to be able to shut the door on a pretty clear case against Jeremy.   
 
There was no question these church leaders knew that Jeremy Runnells was going to be as public about the process as possible.  Anything they said, any answer they gave him, they knew at this point would be splashed all over the media at least locally.  I'm pretty sure as well that the local leadership had some directive from higher up.
 
However, to be fair, Jeremy Runnells did not enter that room with any intention to try to get back into the good graces of happy membership.  And if there is no hope of that, there is no reason whatsoever for the men in the room to extend the conversation.  Jeremy went into that room very prepared with what he was going to say to them, with his resignation letter in hand, and hidden recorder on wrist or wherever it was, and then stood on a truck afterwards with a microphone in his hand to tell friends and waiting media that he excommunicated the LDS church.   
 
I'm not trying to defend the church but I don't see Jeremy being a hero either.  Not in this.  His CES letter is one thing, the way he went about this was another.   
 
Ellen,
 
You seem to want to extend a generosity to one side of this engagement, which I find extremely hard to appreciate, and which I do NOT observe extended to Jeremy.
First off there was a massive power differential: 1: many, and he had no, not one confederate in the room. Only those who have been in a similar environment can appreciate how extremely stressful that is.
 
The 'court' was on terrain of their choosing, with all their power symbols attendant, reinforcing the numerical power differential.
They got to define the rules of engagement, and refused to discuss any internal inconsistencies.
They would entertain no analysis of their historical passivity on the issues they later came to regard so pressing.
 
The defendent had a hearing impediment which compromised his ability to take in the fullness of proceedings.
The name 'court' implies that justice will be a given priority, one could argue regardless of the 'guilt' of the defendent. (Civil courts of law, by reference, will make allowance for mitigating circumstances that might have complicated behaviour, such as depression, stress or the like.)
Let's be clear, at the very beginning of this process, Jeremy was not exactly a happy bee, so your test that he glibly return to said state denies the real starting point in these proceedings. He had a long list of legitimate doctrinal and historical issues to which he wanted answers.
I believe that if those points were run by a non-member from another faith, they would not struggle to agree that these are issues of not just significant substance to the maintenance to any thinking member, but core to the claims made by the faith.
By the way, I would argue you are reading these events backwards, which I'll claim is intellectual sloppiness that is self-serving.
That Jeremy held to hand a signed resignation does not lead logically to the conclusion that he intended to use it regardless of the developments in that court. That is the equivalent of arguing that because a Police officer carried a firearm means that he intended to discharge it regardless of developments.
 
Daryl 
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‘Our life is the creation of our minds, and we do much of that creating in metaphor…. With the wrong metaphor we are deluded; with no metaphor we are blind. ’ Jonathan Haidt
‘and I am responsible for the metaphors that populate my mind.’ Daryl


   


Posted: 21 April 2016 05:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]   

   
 
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ellen:
[snip]
 
I'm not trying to defend the church but I don't see Jeremy being a hero either.  Not in this.  His CES letter is one thing, the way he went about this was another.   
 
Let me employ a metaphor to attempt to unpack this.
Jeremy said a long way back, 'I have an infection that is an active threat to the body of my Mormon belief. As respected spiritual physicians, will you attend to my infection?'
And the physician appears to have agreed the infection existed and was of a serious enough nature, and committed to locate and apply the appropriate solution. He even committed to a timeframe.
But time passed and nothing was forthcoming.
So Jeremy followed up.
Still more time passed and still nothing was forthcoming.
Jeremy's infection got worse, as infections tend to do untreated, and it might even be argued he developed a fever of sorts secondary to the initial infection.
Meanwhile, the expanse of time left a gaping hole for speculation as to whether these spiritual physicians had any powerful medicine or knowledge at all, and even worse, room for speculation that they were part of the disease in the first place.
Eventally, Jeremy's escelating protestations became too much for the impotent spiritual physicians, who decided they must silence the noisy patient. His screams could be heard all over the hospital and were alarming other patients. 
So they went about euthanizing Jeremy, discarding even the pretence of concern about his infection and return to health. Not unsurprisingly his faith in their medicine and skill as physicians took a marked decline over time.
So he turned up to the hospital, for a scheduled event that anyone in the know had no doubt was intended to result in the spiritual death of the patient. The slim and unpalatable alternative was that he live on as a lobotomised zombie.
And the operation commenced and proceeded, the patient not being allowed anyone to accompany him to insure his best interests.
His fate seemed a foregone conclusion.
But as the lead physician was priming the needle to bring the ugly proceedings to a close, the patient leapt off the operating table, told the head physician where to stick his needle and bolted from that theatre.
All the evidence would suggest that this disease was very context-specific, so a cure lay in relocation, and sufficient time to recover, and unpack the formerly misplaced trust in spiritual physicians.
Daryl
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‘Our life is the creation of our minds, and we do much of that creating in metaphor…. With the wrong metaphor we are deluded; with no metaphor we are blind. ’ Jonathan Haidt
‘and I am responsible for the metaphors that populate my mind.’ Daryl


   


Posted: 21 April 2016 05:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]   

   
 
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The "good graces of happy membership" should have been in sarcastic font.  I forget that tone doesn't translate and am much more comfortable reading than writing.  My point there was that Jeremy most definitely did NOT want to return to active membership.  Did not mean to sound glib. 
 
Yes, that is true that I want to extend a generosity to the church side of the equation here, because really all I have read about it is how much of a hero Jeremy is and how cold and heartless and robotic the stake president was, and how bad of a reader.  I have to admit to not feeling very generous towards Jeremy in this and probably have to think about that a bit more as to why.  
 
I agree completely, power was heavily on the side of the church in this.  Absolutely.  Not a court, either, where anyone was there to defend Jeremy.  Which by the way I always thought that six high councilmen were supposed to argue in his favor, does that happen after the individual leaves the room?  I don't know. 
 
Maybe it is that I don't believe he was in any way still wanting answers.  I have had to admit that myself.  There is a point where you pass from having the questions, to asking the questions out loud, to realizing that there is no answer that could come from the church or anyone associated with it that could even satisfy what you are asking.  I think that Jeremy has been at that point for years now, that is evident even from the few quotes that the stake president read from the Mormon Stories interview.  If you are using the descriptive words for God that Jeremy used, there is very little point in continuing the process.  
 
I agree with his long list of historical and doctrinal issues or at least most of them, or I wouldn't be here.  I am old enough to have had most of the questions many many years before Jeremy had them.   
 
I don't know that Jeremy planned to hand in his resignation letter like he did.  True, that was reading things backwards on that point,  but on the other hand it is not generous at all to label someone with intellectual sloppiness that is self serving.
 
To run these points of his CES letter past someone of another faith, they would wonder why Jeremy would engage in this excommunication process at all.  Just leave.  
 
What was his point in going? Did he really still want answers?   
 
 


   


Posted: 21 April 2016 05:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]   

   
 
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Where the metaphor falls apart for me is that this patient was way past ever trusting these physicians to even give him an aspirin.   

   


Posted: 21 April 2016 06:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]   

   
 
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I think Jeremy's question to the SP is valid, "Why am I here, President?" After pointing out that it was the church defaming the church with their essays that threw previous presidents under the bus, it was Joseph Smith defaming Joseph Smith with his adultry and blatant lies about the First Vision and Penishood restoration, false prophecies and storytelling.
 
I might add it was GordonBHinckley that defamed the church when he threw a core unique LDS doctrine out of the window, then in October he preached on the very subject. 
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Posted: 21 April 2016 06:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]   

   
 
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ellen:
[snip[
 
To run these points of his CES letter past someone of another faith, they would wonder why Jeremy would engage in this excommunication process at all.  Just leave.  
 
What was his point in going? Did he really still want answers?   
 
I think the point you raise above is intersting and well worth unpacking.
I regard the Church as a lost cause, committed to self-perpetuation of power and its meme, so it follows that doing such things in the belief that they will tear the evil empire down is wishful thinking at best.
But I see at least two other possibilities.
The first I see is that one can believe that others might be ready, close to the out door, who just need a few more strays.
But the second and more significant to my thinking is that asserting one's self in the face of this oppressive creature is an act of mental and spiritual good health.
Now I would be the first to acknowledge that there can be a fanciful and naive David and Goliath script, 'the goodies win in the end' script running, that the older I get the more critically I regard. We are fed on movies along this line, and while they are deeply appealing, that does not make them represent the real world.
But beyond that lies something I think is healthy and therefore valuable, an act of assertion which is markedly different from aggression or passivity. With assertiveness, you don't have to 'win' over an opponent to have won psychologically internally. Not cowering or slinking away can be deeply empowering, particularly from an organisation which has played such dirty mind-control games through ones lifetime.
 
It is in that specific context that the act of recording proceedings fits for me. It strikes me that the act of recording could be assigned to many motivations, and from the outside, we are likely always restricted to speculating.
Ultimately, we had a very formal commencement to our membership of this organisation, marked with ritual and paperwork.
I'd argue that, as with a marriage, there is value in formally and ritually marking closure, just as some people do with marriage.
Just 'walking away' risks falling short of acknowledging the profoundly complex and powerful psychological forces at play, and I have come to believe powerful ritual can achieve powerful healing.
 
Daryl 
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‘and I am responsible for the metaphors that populate my mind.’ Daryl


   


Posted: 21 April 2016 06:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]   

   
 
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ellen:
Where the metaphor falls apart for me is that this patient was way past ever trusting these physicians to even give him an aspirin.  
 
I am insufficiently familiar with Jeremy's spiritual stance in the timeframe prior to lodging the CES letter.
Do you believe he had lost ALL hope that early?
I believe it problematic to ascribe one mindset across the many years covered in this story, but I observe many who appear to lazily assume that where he was at the end, was where he started.
That does not align with my personal experience of leaving.
 
Daryl 
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‘Our life is the creation of our minds, and we do much of that creating in metaphor…. With the wrong metaphor we are deluded; with no metaphor we are blind. ’ Jonathan Haidt
‘and I am responsible for the metaphors that populate my mind.’ Daryl


   


Posted: 21 April 2016 06:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]   

   
 
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ellen:
[snip]  
 
I don't know that Jeremy planned to hand in his resignation letter like he did.  True, that was reading things backwards on that point,  but on the other hand it is not generous at all to label someone with intellectual sloppiness that is self serving.
  [snip]
  
 
Ellen,
The pursuit of truth wins out over generosity to my mind. You have, after all, been scimpy with your generosity towards Jeremy by your own admission.
In hindsight, was not your logic lacking in the rigour to explore a range of possibilities?
Did not the interpretation you alighted on, serve your prevailing train of thought or argument?
If the cap does not fit, please point that out, and I'll be the first to apologize.
I am not an ungenerous person by nature.
 
Daryl 
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‘Our life is the creation of our minds, and we do much of that creating in metaphor…. With the wrong metaphor we are deluded; with no metaphor we are blind. ’ Jonathan Haidt
‘and I am responsible for the metaphors that populate my mind.’ Daryl


   


Posted: 21 April 2016 06:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]   

   
 
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ellen:
The "good graces of happy membership" should have been in sarcastic font.  I forget that tone doesn't translate and am much more comfortable reading than writing.  My point there was that Jeremy most definitely did NOT want to return to active membership.  Did not mean to sound glib. 
 
Yes, that is true that I want to extend a generosity to the church side of the equation here, because really all I have read about it is how much of a hero Jeremy is and how cold and heartless and robotic the stake president was, and how bad of a reader.  I have to admit to not feeling very generous towards Jeremy in this and probably have to think about that a bit more as to why.  
 
I agree completely, power was heavily on the side of the church in this.  Absolutely.  Not a court, either, where anyone was there to defend Jeremy.  Which by the way I always thought that six high councilmen were supposed to argue in his favor, does that happen after the individual leaves the room?  I don't know. 
 
Maybe it is that I don't believe he was in any way still wanting answers.  I have had to admit that myself.  There is a point where you pass from having the questions, to asking the questions out loud, to realizing that there is no answer that could come from the church or anyone associated with it that could even satisfy what you are asking.  I think that Jeremy has been at that point for years now, that is evident even from the few quotes that the stake president read from the Mormon Stories interview.  If you are using the descriptive words for God that Jeremy used, there is very little point in continuing the process.  
 
I agree with his long list of historical and doctrinal issues or at least most of them, or I wouldn't be here.  I am old enough to have had most of the questions many many years before Jeremy had them.   
 
I don't know that Jeremy planned to hand in his resignation letter like he did.  True, that was reading things backwards on that point,  but on the other hand it is not generous at all to label someone with intellectual sloppiness that is self serving.
 
To run these points of his CES letter past someone of another faith, they would wonder why Jeremy would engage in this excommunication process at all.  Just leave.  
 
What was his point in going? Did he really still want answers?   
 
 
 
 Gotcha.
 
I think it depends on the person. I would never attend any church court because A) I am female and thus not entitled to their regard, and B) I have no wish to be yet another body steamrolled into the pavement of the pathway to mormon heaven.
 
But I think he said it pretty clearly in the recording that he did want answers that he was continually promised. However, if you are really curious you could always send him a message and ask.  
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“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
~Epicurus
__________________________________________


   


Posted: 21 April 2016 06:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]   

   
 
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Morethanmo:
ellen:
The "good graces of happy membership" should have been in sarcastic font.  I forget that tone doesn't translate and am much more comfortable reading than writing.  My point there was that Jeremy most definitely did NOT want to return to active membership.  Did not mean to sound glib. 
 
Yes, that is true that I want to extend a generosity to the church side of the equation here, because really all I have read about it is how much of a hero Jeremy is and how cold and heartless and robotic the stake president was, and how bad of a reader.  I have to admit to not feeling very generous towards Jeremy in this and probably have to think about that a bit more as to why.  
 
I agree completely, power was heavily on the side of the church in this.  Absolutely.  Not a court, either, where anyone was there to defend Jeremy.  Which by the way I always thought that six high councilmen were supposed to argue in his favor, does that happen after the individual leaves the room?  I don't know. 
 
Maybe it is that I don't believe he was in any way still wanting answers.  I have had to admit that myself.  There is a point where you pass from having the questions, to asking the questions out loud, to realizing that there is no answer that could come from the church or anyone associated with it that could even satisfy what you are asking.  I think that Jeremy has been at that point for years now, that is evident even from the few quotes that the stake president read from the Mormon Stories interview.  If you are using the descriptive words for God that Jeremy used, there is very little point in continuing the process.  
 
I agree with his long list of historical and doctrinal issues or at least most of them, or I wouldn't be here.  I am old enough to have had most of the questions many many years before Jeremy had them.   
 
I don't know that Jeremy planned to hand in his resignation letter like he did.  True, that was reading things backwards on that point,  but on the other hand it is not generous at all to label someone with intellectual sloppiness that is self serving.
 
To run these points of his CES letter past someone of another faith, they would wonder why Jeremy would engage in this excommunication process at all.  Just leave.  
 
What was his point in going? Did he really still want answers?   
 
 
 
 Gotcha.
 
I think it depends on the person. I would never attend any church court because A) I am female and thus not entitled to their regard, and B) I have no wish to be yet another body steamrolled into the pavement of the pathway to mormon heaven.
 
But I think he said it pretty clearly in the recording that he did want answers that he was continually promised. However, if you are really curious you could always send him a message and ask.  
 
And to me, that is what so appealing about Jeremy's course of action.
He looked like certain roadkill in front of that steamroller. He had chosen to stand and hold his space, centre of the road.
 
And just when one's instinct was to blink, and it was getting easy to imagine what a 1mm thick Jeremy might look like as his vital juices were extruded, he bolted, leaving the steamroller operator quite confused and disoriented.
 
Yes, the steamroller still exists, but it is a slow lumbering force ill-suited to its environment, and wedded to the belief that overwhelming pressure/force can win every battle.
 
Daryl
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‘and I am responsible for the metaphors that populate my mind.’ Daryl


   


Posted: 21 April 2016 07:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]   

   
 
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ellen:
[snip]
 
To run these points of his CES letter past someone of another faith, they would wonder why Jeremy would engage in this excommunication process at all.  Just leave.  
 
What was his point in going? Did he really still want answers?   
 
 
 Ellen,
 
Upon reflection, I see a different potential dimension to this that appears to have passed you by.
 
Your questions assume Jeremy was seeking answers from the outside, in answers to questions, that were not forthcoming and arguably never likely to be.
 
What you appear to overlook is the possibility that what he was seeking from this engagement was at least in part internal to him.
The beast he was engaging had exercised mindcontrol over him most his life. And it obviously had no intention of behaving differently. He went through a process of double-checking to my mind.
But historically he had adopted one posture in its presence, one where he consistently gave away power and submitted in the belief that it was worthy of same. When he experienced doubt, he, like many of us, likely turned that in on himself just as intended.
 
Here he engaged very differently while staring The Beast right in the eye.
 
Here was an act, that while there were externalities, potentially was rich with inner realignments, in which he achieved a major reset of his Locus of Control, and did so in a major ritualistic way.
Daryl
 
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‘and I am responsible for the metaphors that populate my mind.’ Daryl


   


Posted: 21 April 2016 07:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]   

   
 
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ellen:
One problem here is that the unfairness here is two sided.  It is clearly not the sort of court where Jeremy could have a conversation with the stake president or engage the others, or to not let him have the interpreter he was comfortable with.
 
But on the other hand, during the portion where the stake president read Jeremy's quotes it is quite clear that Jeremy is, in fact, in direct and clear open opposition to the church. The stake president's job is to decide if a member is, or isn't, an apostate.  The stake president's job is not to answer every question Jeremy asks him.  
 
John Dehlin's stake president had conversations with Dehlin for months, many conversations.  Still excommunicated.  
 
And even we out here in the postmo world, supporters of what Jeremy has written and said, have to admit that it is technically reasonable within the church parameters for a stake president to 1) hold a court for him and 2) excommunicate him.   Jeremy has been very open and blunt,  and he has been very public.  
 
The detail that made me the most uncomfortable however is not that it was recorded, because I understand especially Jeremy wanting to do that (I assume he was the one who recorded it) so that he could more fully understand what they were saying to him.  However, it is the publishing of it.  I realize that it was not Jeremy who published it.  But he had to share it in the first place for someone else to put it out there.  And the knowledge that church leaders have now that these excommunications and conversations with them can be recorded and virally published is having a chilling effect on what any church leader will say.  
 
I think the fact that John Dehlin recorded his own excommunication and the subsequent publication of that conversation put a great chill on these courts so they are even less likely to be a two-sided conversation than they even were in the past.  Why would church leaders want to engage in any sort of back and forth when they fully know that the whole conversation is most likely being recorded and will be public?   
 
I would be very uncomfortable if someone recorded a conversation with me without my knowledge and put it out there on the internet.  So in that sense, I become a bit sympathetic to the church here.  
 
 I thought a SP job was to help individuals. Leave the 90 and 9 and go help the one. The cult via yet another tbm leader  flips individuals off for requiring time talent and energy to do any real help.
 
Those SP's have a common connection. That is a line of corporate authority of ass kissing from SLC Utah. There is No God nor divinity involved.
 
Sympatheic to a cult for following its own mind control and manipulative procedures? 
 
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Posted: 21 April 2016 07:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]   

   
 
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ellen:
Where the metaphor falls apart for me is that this patient was way past ever trusting these physicians to even give him an aspirin.  
 
 However Jeremy offered his trust and foregiveness opportunity for the physicians to heal themselves.
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Posted: 21 April 2016 07:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]   

   
 
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FreeLive:
ellen:
Where the metaphor falls apart for me is that this patient was way past ever trusting these physicians to even give him an aspirin.  
 
 However Jeremy offered his trust and foregiveness opportunity for the physicians to heal themselves.
 
 I like it. I like it!
They of course see the process as only operating one way, of course.
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‘and I am responsible for the metaphors that populate my mind.’ Daryl


   


Posted: 21 April 2016 08:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]   

   
 
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ellen:
The "good graces of happy membership" should have been in sarcastic font.  I forget that tone doesn't translate and am much more comfortable reading than writing.  My point there was that Jeremy most definitely did NOT want to return to active membership.  Did not mean to sound glib. 
 
Yes, that is true that I want to extend a generosity to the church side of the equation here, because really all I have read about it is how much of a hero Jeremy is and how cold and heartless and robotic the stake president was, and how bad of a reader.  I have to admit to not feeling very generous towards Jeremy in this and probably have to think about that a bit more as to why.  
 
I agree completely, power was heavily on the side of the church in this.  Absolutely.  Not a court, either, where anyone was there to defend Jeremy.  Which by the way I always thought that six high councilmen were supposed to argue in his favor, does that happen after the individual leaves the room?  I don't know. 
 
Maybe it is that I don't believe he was in any way still wanting answers.  I have had to admit that myself.  There is a point where you pass from having the questions, to asking the questions out loud, to realizing that there is no answer that could come from the church or anyone associated with it that could even satisfy what you are asking.  I think that Jeremy has been at that point for years now, that is evident even from the few quotes that the stake president read from the Mormon Stories interview.  If you are using the descriptive words for God that Jeremy used, there is very little point in continuing the process.  
 
I agree with his long list of historical and doctrinal issues or at least most of them, or I wouldn't be here.  I am old enough to have had most of the questions many many years before Jeremy had them.   
 
I don't know that Jeremy planned to hand in his resignation letter like he did.  True, that was reading things backwards on that point,  but on the other hand it is not generous at all to label someone with intellectual sloppiness that is self serving. 
 
To run these points of his CES letter past someone of another faith, they would wonder why Jeremy would engage in this excommunication process at all.  Just leave.  
 
What was his point in going? Did he really still want answers?   
 
 
 
Jeremy finished the process. He has all the conclusions he needs after his questions were answered by silence. No response is a response. 
 
 Why STAYlds ? Why do the splits pretending to be NOM ?
 
In Runnels case I believe it was for closure. An ending for all listening ears to hear, a denouement for a final narrative in which the strands of the plot are drawn together and matters are explained or resolved. 
 
 
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Posted: 22 April 2016 03:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]   

   
 
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Born Free:
ellen:
[snip[
 
To run these points of his CES letter past someone of another faith, they would wonder why Jeremy would engage in this excommunication process at all.  Just leave.  
 
What was his point in going? Did he really still want answers?   
 
I think the point you raise above is intersting and well worth unpacking.
I regard the Church as a lost cause, committed to self-perpetuation of power and its meme, so it follows that doing such things in the belief that they will tear the evil empire down is wishful thinking at best.
But I see at least two other possibilities.
The first I see is that one can believe that others might be ready, close to the out door, who just need a few more strays.
But the second and more significant to my thinking is that asserting one's self in the face of this oppressive creature is an act of mental and spiritual good health.
Now I would be the first to acknowledge that there can be a fanciful and naive David and Goliath script, 'the goodies win in the end' script running, that the older I get the more critically I regard. We are fed on movies along this line, and while they are deeply appealing, that does not make them represent the real world.
But beyond that lies something I think is healthy and therefore valuable, an act of assertion which is markedly different from aggression or passivity. With assertiveness, you don't have to 'win' over an opponent to have won psychologically internally. Not cowering or slinking away can be deeply empowering, particularly from an organisation which has played such dirty mind-control games through ones lifetime.
 
It is in that specific context that the act of recording proceedings fits for me. It strikes me that the act of recording could be assigned to many motivations, and from the outside, we are likely always restricted to speculating.
Ultimately, we had a very formal commencement to our membership of this organisation, marked with ritual and paperwork.
I'd argue that, as with a marriage, there is value in formally and ritually marking closure, just as some people do with marriage.
Just 'walking away' risks falling short of acknowledging the profoundly complex and powerful psychological forces at play, and I have come to believe powerful ritual can achieve powerful healing.
 
Daryl 
This makes sense.  Different way of looking at it.    

   


Posted: 22 April 2016 05:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]   

   
 
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ellen:

<snip>
 
I agree completely, power was heavily on the side of the church in this.  Absolutely.  Not a court, either, where anyone was there to defend Jeremy.  Which by the way I always thought that six high councilmen were supposed to argue in his favor, does that happen after the individual leaves the room?  I don't know. 
 
</snip>  
 
Although I have never been subjected to a "court of love," I was in a bishopric and my father has been both a bishop and has sat on the stake high council. My understanding of this is based on my own experience in a bishopric and my father's explanation on how it unfolds at the stake level.
 
In a bishopric, prior to the individual entering the room, the bishop would assign one counsellor to represent "the good name of the church" and the other to consider the interests of the individual. I think we handled it fairly well at the ward level, and in my 6 years we never sent someone to the stake.
 
However, at the stake level it takes on a different dimension. The 12 men are randomly split, six to consider the good name of the church, and six who are assigned to have the individual's interests in mind. On the surface, this seems fair. HOWEVER...
 
The "individual's interests" are actually the church's interests. Their role is not to defend the accused, but to consider his humility and penitence, and how to best apply the atonement and repentance in his life, taking into consideration the nature of the "offense". In other words, they will decide from the accused's perspective if excommunication or another form of discipline will be necessary. Ultimately, his "best interests" are defined to be whatever it will take to get him back into the fold as a full tithe-paying morgbot. 
 
The outcomes of these courts are, in fact, almost always foregone conclusions. Guilt has already been determined, that is why the court has been convened. The facts have already been considered (or ignored, depending on the SP or higher-up who called the court). The purpose of the court is not to determine guilt or innocence. It is always, ALWAYS, to protect the church. The division of the high council into two parts only gives the illusion of balance and fairness. They are there to apply whatever form of discipline is necessary to get the accused to repent.
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Posted: 22 April 2016 06:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]   

   
 
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I have been apart of 2 Church Courts.  
 
My first one was when i was 20. I returned home off my mission with some untold sins, plus i hated my mission, but the untold sins were so bad that i was told i was going to have a Church Court.   I got ready for it. I followed the Bishops advice, prayed, met with him a few times, tried to feel guilty and have some form of repentance.  The day came for it and I showed up at the time given. No One showed. I waited for a half hour and finally went home and called the Bishop. He said that they thought i would not show up and decided to just suspend my privelages of holding a calling, praying in Church and taking the sacrament.  It really did not go how I was told.
 
The second one was when me and my gf were living in Ogden. This one had the all the people in the room. We were told on by her roommate about me staying the night in her room and the sounds she heard. You can guess.
 
So we sat down and they started right in on making us feel guilty. The funny thing, the guilt was not working on me. I was not very active at the time and could care less. I know they could sense that. I went mostly to support my gf. I did not want her in their alone with guys our age or younger and older men asking sexual questions.  They asked some basic questions and then started to ask for details. That is when i stood up and said, "We are not going to answer anymore questions. You do not need to know the details of when, how, how many times, front or backwards, or anything about what we do sexually. All you need to know is that we had sex. And i think the only reason you asking these questions is to get your jollys off the answers and your own mental sexual pleasures."  I grabbed my gf by her hand and we left.   She was not ex'd. She was told that we needed to break up ( did not happen and we still enjoyed sex daily ), and she could not take the sacrament, pray or hold a calling.  She felt much worse about not taking the sacrament because of what others would think if they saw her, so she would sit in the foyer until it was passed and then walk in.
 
Church courts are nothing but a show of force for the Church in my opinion. They are not courts of love. If that was true there would be no excommunications, no disfellowships. They would be courts of talking things through and not just following handbooks.  The Church courts i was apart of were not scary or even full of love. They were just there to get details to be able to share with everyone or compare notes of what they need to do in the in bedroom.  
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Posted: 22 April 2016 08:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]   

   
 
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WinstonSmith:
Hank:
In Utah, only one person who is involved in an exchange has to be aware of the recording. If one asked, then the other person would have to state that they were recording. They have the right to keep recording.
I guess that this would prevent any awkward 'pat downs'.
 
I am trying to think of 'hypotheticals' in this situation. What would be the potential response of a SP?
 
To me it seems a bit of a conundrum: Would they proceed knowing they are being recorded and that the video/audio potentially would be submitted as a tithe to the google gods?
 
Would the cancel the court?
 
Would they proceed, in 'secret combination', not allowing the accussed to attend the court?  
 
Colorado is a Single Party Consent state as is Utah. I recorded my interview with my Stake President who visited me in my home and brought along our local Area Seventy. I recorded my subsequent interview regarding "eccelsiastic issues" and my Bishop recorded as well. I recorded the follow up interview to that with my Stake President, which was that last step before my DC.
 
And I recorded my DC.
 
At no time was I ever asked NOT to record!
 
So I did!!! 
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Posted: 22 April 2016 08:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]   

   
 
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Jon Marshall:
I have been apart of 2 Church Courts.  
 
My first one was when i was 20. I returned home off my mission with some untold sins, plus i hated my mission, but the untold sins were so bad that i was told i was going to have a Church Court.   I got ready for it. I followed the Bishops advice, prayed, met with him a few times, tried to feel guilty and have some form of repentance.  The day came for it and I showed up at the time given. No One showed. I waited for a half hour and finally went home and called the Bishop. He said that they thought i would not show up and decided to just suspend my privelages of holding a calling, praying in Church and taking the sacrament.  It really did not go how I was told.
 
The second one was when me and my gf were living in Ogden. This one had the all the people in the room. We were told on by her roommate about me staying the night in her room and the sounds she heard. You can guess.
 
So we sat down and they started right in on making us feel guilty. The funny thing, the guilt was not working on me. I was not very active at the time and could care less. I know they could sense that. I went mostly to support my gf. I did not want her in their alone with guys our age or younger and older men asking sexual questions.  They asked some basic questions and then started to ask for details. That is when i stood up and said, "We are not going to answer anymore questions. You do not need to know the details of when, how, how many times, front or backwards, or anything about what we do sexually. All you need to know is that we had sex. And i think the only reason you asking these questions is to get your jollys off the answers and your own mental sexual pleasures."  I grabbed my gf by her hand and we left.   She was not ex'd. She was told that we needed to break up ( did not happen and we still enjoyed sex daily ), and she could not take the sacrament, pray or hold a calling.  She felt much worse about not taking the sacrament because of what others would think if they saw her, so she would sit in the foyer until it was passed and then walk in.
 
Church courts are nothing but a show of force for the Church in my opinion. They are not courts of love. If that was true there would be no excommunications, no disfellowships. They would be courts of talking things through and not just following handbooks.  The Church courts i was apart of were not scary or even full of love. They were just there to get details to be able to share with everyone or compare notes of what they need to do in the in bedroom.  
 OMG, I love this!!! Way to stand up to old pervs. I never understood why they needed details either--except to fully humiliate people. 
 
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Posted: 22 April 2016 01:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]   

   
 
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I enjoyed listening/watching the video of this court. I did not think I would but was surprised how i sat through the whole thing. I loved the above highlighed quotes too. I also enjoyed how Jeremy used several of their own leader's quotes. The only thing that disappointed me was the very end. He made his statement and rushed out - making it sound as though he was trying to get away from those who were right when in fact i wish would have spoken slowly and deliberately and walked out calmly - but i am sure he was aggravated as hell with them and the whole phony process. 

   


Posted: 22 April 2016 03:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]   

   
 
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Nice summary of quotes Winston.  thanks 

   


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The Best of Jeremy Runnells  
Posted: 22 April 2016 03:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]   

   
 
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FreeLive:
 
 
Jeremy finished the process. He has all the conclusions he needs after his questions were answered by silence. No response is a response. 
 
 Why STAYlds ? Why do the splits pretending to be NOM ?
 
In Runnels case I believe it was for closure. An ending for all listening ears to hear, a denouement for a final narrative in which the strands of the plot are drawn together and matters are explained or resolved. 
 
 
 
Nice summation.
I observe some people who say 'You don't believe any more, so why care; why even attend a Church Court?'
For reclamation of important internal space, that's why.
When you finally get a grip on how we were all groomed to give away our power to this organisation and its little power Lords, most people feel anger directed at self. "How could I fail to see how this worked?'
Well we can't alter history, but we sure as Hell can do some serious reclamation of that critical inner real estate.
In that context, a recording becomes a witness, an unalterable record. The Morg denies the presence of support and others who might bear witness, but recording events siezes that power back from them, and on that count, I believe it is totally justifiable.
In the process, all those male power Lords are diminished, shrunken back to being the pathetic gears in a grinding machine, and they frankly just look ugly exceuses for human beings. They claim to act in teh name of love, where as any evidence to support that is hard, if not impossible to find, IMO.
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What Is The Most Offensive Thing You Have Heard/Read Come Out Of The Mouth Of A Profit Or A GA?
by Free2Live
The big J in G's
by Tessa
Conference Mormonism vs The Rest of the Year Mormonism
by Free2Live
Pope Condems Pedofillia. Too Bad Mormon Leaders Do Not Have Courage To
by Strong Free & Thankful
I'm officially out
by Free2Live
Science Hits the W of W Below The Belt--Again!
by Strong Free & Thankful
St. Judas the Traitor 1st Ward - Meetup - Sunday, May 1st, 10:00am at Harmons (Draper, UT) - ***New photo at bottom of thread***
by BITE ME
Portland Oregon Ex-Mormon Meetup - May 15
by LessMon
What might the Church look like in the future?
by Smitty
Dan Dennett on the "Faith" card
by Celestial Wedgie
The temple taught me the value of apostasy
by Morethanmo
My sister escaped and she's poking the hornet nest
by Bruce A Holt
Thanks for the slaughter, God
by Strong Free & Thankful
Richard Turley of Swedish Rescue fame
by Quartersawn
Why do you think the Witnesses never recanted their testimonies?
by LostInParadise
The Several Facets of Truth
by son of perdition
Hornet's nest
by Bruce A Holt 

   http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/42251/P40/






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Hilarious take down of Utah “porn crisis” resolution  
Posted: 23 April 2016 07:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
Avatar
Swearing Elder
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The Nightly Show had a grand old time the other night with Utah's new "porn is a health crisis" resolution. 
 
You can watch it here.  (If that doesn't work for you, fast forward to the 3:20 mark to watch it here.)
 
 Signature
Palmetto PostMormons Chapter Page | Swearing Elders Blog


   


Posted: 23 April 2016 08:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Jon Marshall
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To me Porn is not a health crisis.  Porn can get out of a hand for sure. But what adults do in their homes, watch, film or are interested in, it is their business not the Church's.
  
 Signature http://www.jonathankmarshall.blogspot.com


   


Posted: 23 April 2016 08:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Morethanmo
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Swearing Elder:
The Nightly Show had a grand old time the other night with Utah's new "porn is a health crisis" resolution. 
 
You can watch it here.  (If that doesn't work for you, fast forward to the 3:20 mark to watch it here.)
 
 
 If porn is a health crisis then I have a fever. Bow-chicka-bow-bow! 
 
 
 Signature
__________________________________________

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
~Epicurus
__________________________________________


   


Posted: 23 April 2016 08:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Pat Bagley's smackdown is spot on. While politicians fiddle with this silly resolution, Rome burns...
 
 
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Posted: 25 April 2016 05:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Morethanmo
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I love this development-- http://www.sltrib.com/home/3813918-155/ryan-reynolds-tweets-about-brewvies-deadpool
 Signature
__________________________________________

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
~Epicurus
__________________________________________


   


            
 
 ‹‹ Why do you think the Witnesses never recanted their testimonies?        My Articles of Faith ››  
 
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 Mormon GA about the First Vision: "We have always been at war with Eastasia."
by Jon Marshall
 Jeff Holland in Tempe "furious with people who leave"
by Jon Marshall
 Soon to be ex-mormon Tyler Glenn (of Neon Trees) Trashes Church in New Video
by Jon Marshall
What Is The Most Offensive Thing You Have Heard/Read Come Out Of The Mouth Of A Profit Or A GA?
by Free2Live
The big J in G's
by Tessa
Conference Mormonism vs The Rest of the Year Mormonism
by Free2Live
Pope Condems Pedofillia. Too Bad Mormon Leaders Do Not Have Courage To
by Strong Free & Thankful
I'm officially out
by Free2Live
Science Hits the W of W Below The Belt--Again!
by Strong Free & Thankful
St. Judas the Traitor 1st Ward - Meetup - Sunday, May 1st, 10:00am at Harmons (Draper, UT) - ***New photo at bottom of thread***
by BITE ME
Portland Oregon Ex-Mormon Meetup - May 15
by LessMon
What might the Church look like in the future?
by Smitty
Dan Dennett on the "Faith" card
by Celestial Wedgie
The temple taught me the value of apostasy
by Morethanmo
My sister escaped and she's poking the hornet nest
by Bruce A Holt
Thanks for the slaughter, God
by Strong Free & Thankful
Richard Turley of Swedish Rescue fame
by Quartersawn
Why do you think the Witnesses never recanted their testimonies?
by LostInParadise
The Several Facets of Truth
by son of perdition
Hornet's nest
by Bruce A Holt 

   http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/42259/





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2015 Conference
"LEAVING A LEGACY"
October 16-18
Doubletree Suites
SLC, Utah




















 


Financial Report for 2011 to Date

Financial Report for 2010 to Date

Financial Report for 2009

Twin Falls Newspaper Article

Twin Falls Billboard

Financial Report for 2009 to Date




The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]

Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]

Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]



 Summer Schedule
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
 SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/1)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
Coming up May 1’st 2016 - Kristyn Decker to lecture!
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (4/3)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
Imprompu get-together
[Dead Prophets Soc...] 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (3/6)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series- March 6th, 2016 Author Dave Nelson
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
Open House Meetup: 3/19/16
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
Train ride and picnic Meetup: 2/27/16
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series February 7th, 2016- Joe Rawlins
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
SF Bay Area Super Bowl Party (Feb 7)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
Jan 10th, 2016-Southern Utah PostMormons will present an outstanding lecture combo
[Southern Utah Pos...] 


Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by TheDogLady 
Book of Mormon Tories
by Chris Sexton 
Why I am a Better Mother
by antipsicótica 
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by Barney 
Resignation Letter to My Family
sam2

Post-mormon Roles
sam2

Post-mormon Roles
former victim

The Book of Mormon Musical comes to South Carolina!
Swearing Elder

Resignation Letter to My Family
INRETROSPECT

Resignation Letter to My Family
oneanother

Utah County CALM meetup for November
BlackSheep2

FACEBOOK INFO
Crissy

FACEBOOK INFO
Barn

October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
Starfleet

October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
alvie

Why I am a Better Mother
by aworkinprogress 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
exmoinaz

SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
owned

The Mormon Mask
by Born Free 
Las Vegas Meetup--Jazz in the Park Saturday May 10 6:30PM
onendagus

Resignation Letter to My Family
ShadowSage

Resignation Letter to My Family
ShadowSage

Guru Busters
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Resignation Letter to My Family
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My Articles of Faith  
Posted: 25 April 2016 09:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Denker
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My own articles of faith look quite different now from the ones Joseph Smith gave me to memorize for Primary graduation.  Here are mine:
 
1. I believe in God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit.
 
2. I believe that men will be punished for their own sins and not for Adam's or Cain's or Laman's transgression.
 
3. I believe that through the Atonement of Christ all mankind will be saved by his grace alone. 
 
4. I believe that the first principles of the gospel are: freedom, simplicity, reason, and do unto others as I would be done by.
 
5. I believe that a man may by his own authority share the gospel with his fellowmen and administer to the needs thereof.
 
6. I believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, Christ and his disciples.
 
7. I believe in the gift of intellect, agency, and conscience.
 
8. I believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of Joseph Smith and those from whom it was borrowed.  I believe the New Testament to be the word of God.
 
9. I believe all that God has revealed that agrees with reason, all that he does now reveal that agrees with reason, and that he will yet reveal many things pertaining to those who guide their lives by reason.
 
10. I believe that we are all one human family, and that we must learn to live in harmony with one another so that Christ can reign personally in our hearts.
 
11. I claim the freedom to read, view, believe, and express, and allow all men the same freedom, let them read, view, believe, and express how, where, or what they may.
 
12. I believe in being subject to the civil government and in honoring, obeying, and sustaining the Constitution and the laws of the land in which I live.
 
13. I believe in being trustworthy, inquisitive, sincere, tolerant, empathetic, forgiving, and in doing good to all men.  Where there is anything honorable, lovely, edifying, or moral, I seek after these things.


   


Posted: 25 April 2016 09:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
Free2Live
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Good revision. Will you be having a revised list of the 10 commandments to share soon?
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Posted: 25 April 2016 10:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Denker
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FreeLive:
Good revision. Will you be having a revised list of the 10 commandments to share soon?
 
 No, to me they are still solid as is, but I believe I could do a fair job of revising half of them (#'s 3, and 7-10) to fit Joseph Smith's behavior.


   


Posted: 26 April 2016 02:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Dovolente
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Denker:
FreeLive:
Good revision. Will you be having a revised list of the 10 commandments to share soon?
 
 No, to me they are still solid as is, but I believe I could do a fair job of revising half of them (#'s 3, and 7-10) to fit Joseph Smith's behavior.
 
1- Exclusivism and intolerance, CHECK.
2-3 Censorship of art and speech, CHECK.
4  Control of 14% of one's time, CHECK.
5-9  Needless prescription (and subsequent false ownership) of basic societal rules that every human society ever already has -- prohibitions for in-group murder, lying, stealing, etc, CHECK.
10 Thought crime, women and servants included in a property list, CHECK.
 
Yeah, pretty solid.  
 


   


            
 
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 Mormon GA about the First Vision: "We have always been at war with Eastasia."
by Jon Marshall
 Jeff Holland in Tempe "furious with people who leave"
by Jon Marshall
 Soon to be ex-mormon Tyler Glenn (of Neon Trees) Trashes Church in New Video
by Jon Marshall
What Is The Most Offensive Thing You Have Heard/Read Come Out Of The Mouth Of A Profit Or A GA?
by Free2Live
The big J in G's
by Tessa
Conference Mormonism vs The Rest of the Year Mormonism
by Free2Live
Pope Condems Pedofillia. Too Bad Mormon Leaders Do Not Have Courage To
by Strong Free & Thankful
I'm officially out
by Free2Live
Science Hits the W of W Below The Belt--Again!
by Strong Free & Thankful
St. Judas the Traitor 1st Ward - Meetup - Sunday, May 1st, 10:00am at Harmons (Draper, UT) - ***New photo at bottom of thread***
by BITE ME
Portland Oregon Ex-Mormon Meetup - May 15
by LessMon
What might the Church look like in the future?
by Smitty
Dan Dennett on the "Faith" card
by Celestial Wedgie
The temple taught me the value of apostasy
by Morethanmo
My sister escaped and she's poking the hornet nest
by Bruce A Holt
Thanks for the slaughter, God
by Strong Free & Thankful
Richard Turley of Swedish Rescue fame
by Quartersawn
Why do you think the Witnesses never recanted their testimonies?
by LostInParadise
The Several Facets of Truth
by son of perdition
Hornet's nest
by Bruce A Holt 

   http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/42260/






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2015 Conference
"LEAVING A LEGACY"
October 16-18
Doubletree Suites
SLC, Utah




















 


Financial Report for 2011 to Date

Financial Report for 2010 to Date

Financial Report for 2009

Twin Falls Newspaper Article

Twin Falls Billboard

Financial Report for 2009 to Date




The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]

Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]

Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]



 Summer Schedule
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
 SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/1)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
Coming up May 1’st 2016 - Kristyn Decker to lecture!
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (4/3)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
Imprompu get-together
[Dead Prophets Soc...] 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (3/6)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series- March 6th, 2016 Author Dave Nelson
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
Open House Meetup: 3/19/16
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
Train ride and picnic Meetup: 2/27/16
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series February 7th, 2016- Joe Rawlins
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
SF Bay Area Super Bowl Party (Feb 7)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
Jan 10th, 2016-Southern Utah PostMormons will present an outstanding lecture combo
[Southern Utah Pos...] 


Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by TheDogLady 
Book of Mormon Tories
by Chris Sexton 
Why I am a Better Mother
by antipsicótica 
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by Barney 
Resignation Letter to My Family
sam2

Post-mormon Roles
sam2

Post-mormon Roles
former victim

The Book of Mormon Musical comes to South Carolina!
Swearing Elder

Resignation Letter to My Family
INRETROSPECT

Resignation Letter to My Family
oneanother

Utah County CALM meetup for November
BlackSheep2

FACEBOOK INFO
Crissy

FACEBOOK INFO
Barn

October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
Starfleet

October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
alvie

Why I am a Better Mother
by aworkinprogress 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
exmoinaz

SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
owned

The Mormon Mask
by Born Free 
Las Vegas Meetup--Jazz in the Park Saturday May 10 6:30PM
onendagus

Resignation Letter to My Family
ShadowSage

Resignation Letter to My Family
ShadowSage

Guru Busters
by Flora4 
Guru Busters
by Flora4 
Resignation Letter to My Family
Hbush1987


            

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Forum Home  >  Member Forums  >  The Community Forum  >  Thread 
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Sexual Assault in the Mormon Context- Today on Radio West 4/26/16  
Posted: 26 April 2016 06:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
skeptic
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Teachings of the First Presidency:
First Presidency Message
We Believe in Being Chaste
By President Marion G. Romney
Second Counselor in the First Presidency
Marion G. Romney, “We Believe in Being Chaste,” Ensign, Sept. 1981, 3
You will recall Alma’s teaching his son Corianton that unchastity is the most serious offense there is in the sight of God, save murder or denying the Holy Ghost. (See Alma 39:5.) You will remember, too, these words from Paul’s first epistle to the Corinthians:
“Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
“If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy.” (1 Cor. 3:16-17.)
Some years ago the First Presidency said to the youth of the Church that a person would be better dead clean than alive unclean.
 ____________________
This month, The Salt Lake Tribune has been following the story of BYU students who say they’ve been punished under the school’s honor code because they reported sexual assaults. Some of the questions these women are facing have been experienced around the country: will they be believed, shamed or blamed for being a victim? Tuesday, we’re asking how LDS culture and theology of chastity complicates this, and if there are lessons from the Mormon experience that might help challenge assumptions about rape in America.
Guests:
Erin Alberty, Justice and Safety Reporter for The Salt Lake Tribune
Andrea Radke-Moss is a historian at BYU Idaho and a contributor to the Mormon history blog Juvenile Instructor. She recently presented a paper in which she revealed one of the "founding mothers" of Mormonism, Eliza R. Snow, was a possible victim of rape during the Mormon-Missouri War of 1838.
Cynthia Bailey Lee is a lecturer of Computer Science at Stanford University. She blogs for the Mormon focused By Common Consent.

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Some Musings on the similarities between the LDS Church and the DPRK (that is North Korea)  
Posted: 21 April 2016 05:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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bradspencer74
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I suppose it is a dangerous think when people start thinking.  I know the COJCOLDS believes so.  Maybe chalk these observations up to "dangerous thinking."
 
I do not watch that much regular television from the US anymore.  Most of it is crap.  So, I often watch series and films from other areas of the word.  Over the last week or so, I have been watching a lot of documentaries about North Korea and as best as anyone can see, how those people live their lives.  In particular, I have been watching vacation videos from North Korea - (yes, abt 1500 people per year are granted vacation Visas to go to NK.)  
 
Anyway, what truly struck me about these personal videos is how much North Korea models the LDS Church and vice versa.
 
When people go to NK, they are met at the airport by "official guides" who stay with you every step of the way through your government approved tour.  You are in no way allowed to deviate from the programmed tour.  You are not allowed to photograph most areas of the nation, especially the common people.  In fact, it is a criminal offense for the common people to even speak to a foreigner or to try to speak to them.  You are only allowed to see "model families" that exemplify what the NK government sees as perfect representatives of all that is good.  The people receive ALL their information about the rest of the world - ALL OF IT - from official state run TV and radio.  They are blasted with it everywhere they go, even their farm fields have propaganda broadcast on loudspeakers.  NK families have one obsessive goal for their children - to enter the Army.  All males above the age of 18 enter the army and 1/3 of all the females do.  Army service opens doors for better jobs and better opportunity at the end of service.
 
The NK government is based on a god cult of personality around the Kim family.  It is told to the NK population that at the age of 14 (sound familiar), Kim Il Sung formed the Communist party to fight off Japanese occupation. They even renumbered their calendar from the day of his "first vision."  He is called the Eternal President and his pronouncements, and the pronouncements of his progeny, are treated as the pronouncements of a God.  They are codified into books that most NK children base their educations on.  A philosophy of self-reliance in all areas of life.  Many miraculous events are ascribed to the Kims.  In fact, in one tour video, one of the official guides replied to the question of whether, given all these monuments and their reverential treatment of them, do they consider the Great Leader and the Dear Leader Gods?  She said, yes.  And that death could not take them and that they are still alive working for the North Koreans from beyond the grave.  The cult of personality is so strong that plaques even denote where one of the Kims sat in a chair at dinner one night or on an amusement park ride.  The Kims make visits of areas in the nation all the time to give "on-site guidance" for local leaders and even individuals on how to do anything at all, and that guidance is implemented on the spot.
 
The state propaganda machine rewrites history to fit the cult of personality. And, if anyone dares to question the rewritten history, they can be faced with serious sanction including being sent for "re-education" by the state.  As an example, an Australian asked one of the "guides" about what he found in the Soviet State Archives about the Korean War.  The "guide" replied that if he said another word, he could no longer guarantee his safety inside North Korea.
 
There are two full different economies in NK - the "regular" economy based on taxation and the "royal court" economy based around the personal fortunes of the Kim family which is made from taking from taxes (up to 60% of national taxes are funneled into the Kim's personal fortune) and are invested around the world in all sorts of companies and trades to expand their fortunes.  The leaders are given lavish gifts of wealth to keep themselves up.  The people are required to build lavish palaces for the Kim government, monuments to them, while literally millions starve to death.  The people are taught that it is their duty to build these lavish buildings to honor the Great Leader, even while they starve to death and it is their own fault they are starving for not being self-reliant enough. 
 
I could go on and on, but I think the parallels are obvious enough.  The re-writing of Church history to suit the cult of personality around the "Dear Leader" of the time and of the Smith family.  Treating all pronouncements from the leader as the words of a God.  The only approved materials to read and know about the Church for those on the inside are those materials printed by the Church at the moment.  The discouragement to look to any other source of information as anti-Mormon propaganda.  The facing of official sanction if you express an opinion or fact that differs from the official line.  The miracles and infallability of the "leaders."  The depictions of "perfect families" are all that the Church wants the outside to see.  How families are obsessed by getting their boys into "God's Army" and how service in it opens up avenues within Mormon culture to better callings and employment and even a more expansive pool of spouse to choose from.  The little children in Primary singing all these songs on the almost deified status of the Dear Leader... oops, Joseph Smith and the Prophet.  Even the "official missionary guides" at Temple Square and visitor centers.  How General Conference looks rather like a Communist Party Congress in staging.  How billions of dollars are siphoned off into the Church's budget to build lavish buildings and temples and malls while the people get nothing from them.  Even down to the current situations with YBU throwing out victims of rape as "honor code" violators and Runnel's being ex'ed for asking questions.  It is exactly what the North Koreans would do.
 
I watched one of these vids with another person familiar with the Church, and I looked at her and said how much it reminded me of the practices of the Church.  She looked at me shocked and said, "I was thinking the exact same thing." 
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Posted: 21 April 2016 06:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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incawhite
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 Great posting!
 
Let's add this video, a Korean testimoy meeting! :)
 
https://youtu.be/pSWN6Qj98Iw 
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Posted: 21 April 2016 08:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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You should watch "A State of Mind" Documentary if you haven't already. The ending is sad to me. I won't spoil it though. It's a must watch.
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Posted: 21 April 2016 08:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
peace out
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Puts a new spin on "praise to the man" doesn't it?
The interesting part is that the North Korean construct is forcibly maintained!
Yet Mormons mostly self-regulate, although it was not always so, see early church history.
 
I think you will like this Mormon stories podcast.
338-342: The Psychology of Religion with Dr. James Nagel
 
 
 I enjoyed listening to it. But if you have the time following along with the slides would add something.
 
Sadly many groups use variations on those tactics, even worse they work, The CIA has been accused of doing research into cult techniques at one point incorporating drugs into the mix. From what I was told that the Moonies used a variation of these CIA refined techniques to indoctrinate members to their group. It’s scary to think that humans have evolved with a flaw that can be exploited like this.
 
 
It really should be illegal. Or at least people should be trained in school to identify and resist such techniques.


   


Posted: 21 April 2016 09:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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bradspencer74
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peace out:
Puts a new spin on "praise to the man" doesn't it?
The interesting part is that the North Korean construct is forcibly maintained!
Yet Mormons mostly self-regulate, although it was not always so, see early church history.
 
I think you will like this Mormon stories podcast.
338-342: The Psychology of Religion with Dr. James Nagel
 
 
 I enjoyed listening to it. But if you have the time following along with the slides would add something.
 
Sadly many groups use variations on those tactics, even worse they work, The CIA has been accused of doing research into cult techniques at one point incorporating drugs into the mix. From what I was told that the Moonies used a variation of these CIA refined techniques to indoctrinate members to their group. It’s scary to think that humans have evolved with a flaw that can be exploited like this.
 
 
It really should be illegal. Or at least people should be trained in school to identify and resist such techniques.
 
Definitely will listen to the podcast.
 
What caught my eye though was this thought.  When I started to watch these, I thought the same thing.  But the more I learned, the more I realized it far more self-regulated than I had ever imagined.
 
We look at it from the outside.  We simply cannot conceive of a place where people have absolutely no knowledge of the outside world.  None at all.  ALL they know is what they are told from state media.  Of course, the army and the state maintain forceful control, but in many ways, they do not have to.  When you are taught from birth that "this is the way things are" you know nothing else.
 
Ex.  Watching the story of a young man who was born in a labor camp (Under NK law, one judged guilty of treasonous crimes are killed, but also their entire family is placed in the labor camps.  Also, their children and grandchildren are also born, live, and die in the camps.  Part of the Kim family law was that treason (sin) was transmitted through the blood to the 3rd and 4th generation.  So they were automatically guilty before they'd ever been born)
 
Anyway, this young man did not even know the world was round.  He had some concept of "outside" as he could see land beyond the prison fence and that people were brought in.  But, he TRULY believed that all people, however many there were, lived the way he lived.  He turned over his own mother and brother for execution for trying to escape because he had been taught that it was what one did.  It was purely self regulated.  No torture, nothing of what we think of even among the CIA etc.  He volunteered it with no coersion because it was all he ever knew.  In the documentary, he was asked what did he feel when he was watching them being shot.  He said nothing.
 
It reminded me of the insular world of the Church and its self-regulation - how people "turn over to the Bishop" wrong-doers or people confess purely because they are taught that there are ETERNAL consequences for not doing so.  When you are born into the Church and it is all you know - in my case, it was just the way things were - you act very much like that NK teen did. Except that in the church you feel GOOD about handing someone over to "judgement."  In a way, it is even more evil.
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Posted: 21 April 2016 10:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
Hank
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My TBM wife served a mission in Seoul, so she was happy to watch a documentary on the DPRK available on Netflix. As we watched I saw the parallels with the church, but said nothing. In the end, she was amazed as to how repressed the people were...how their minds and actions are controlled, but she never made the connection to the church. 

   


Posted: 21 April 2016 06:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
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peace out:
Puts a new spin on "praise to the man" doesn't it?
The interesting part is that the North Korean construct is forcibly maintained!
Yet Mormons mostly self-regulate, although it was not always so, see early church history.
 
I think you will like this Mormon stories podcast.
338-342: The Psychology of Religion with Dr. James Nagel
 
 
 I enjoyed listening to it. But if you have the time following along with the slides would add something.
 
Sadly many groups use variations on those tactics, even worse they work, The CIA has been accused of doing research into cult techniques at one point incorporating drugs into the mix. From what I was told that the Moonies used a variation of these CIA refined techniques to indoctrinate members to their group. It’s scary to think that humans have evolved with a flaw that can be exploited like this.
 
 
It really should be illegal. Or at least people should be trained in school to identify and resist such techniques.
 This!  I hope those of us who have learned how much we have lost and been hurt do not stop until we can help our fellow-human beings by making sure this happens.  Cults steal minds and lives.  They turn the innocent into zombies.
 
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 26 April 2016 08:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
Long Timer
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Joined  2010-05-22
 
  
 
peace out:
Puts a new spin on "praise to the man" doesn't it?
The interesting part is that the North Korean construct is forcibly maintained!
Yet Mormons mostly self-regulate, although it was not always so, see early church history.
 
I think you will like this Mormon stories podcast.
338-342: The Psychology of Religion with Dr. James Nagel
 
 
 I enjoyed listening to it. But if you have the time following along with the slides would add something.
 
Sadly many groups use variations on those tactics, even worse they work, The CIA has been accused of doing research into cult techniques at one point incorporating drugs into the mix. From what I was told that the Moonies used a variation of these CIA refined techniques to indoctrinate members to their group. It’s scary to think that humans have evolved with a flaw that can be exploited like this.
 
 
It really should be illegal. Or at least people should be trained in school to identify and resist such techniques.
 
 Thanks, peace out for the link!  I saved it to listen to when I can while doing other work.  
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


            
 
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 Mormon GA about the First Vision: "We have always been at war with Eastasia."
by Jon Marshall
 Jeff Holland in Tempe "furious with people who leave"
by Jon Marshall
 Soon to be ex-mormon Tyler Glenn (of Neon Trees) Trashes Church in New Video
by Jon Marshall
What Is The Most Offensive Thing You Have Heard/Read Come Out Of The Mouth Of A Profit Or A GA?
by Free2Live
The big J in G's
by Tessa
Conference Mormonism vs The Rest of the Year Mormonism
by Free2Live
Pope Condems Pedofillia. Too Bad Mormon Leaders Do Not Have Courage To
by Strong Free & Thankful
I'm officially out
by Free2Live
Science Hits the W of W Below The Belt--Again!
by Strong Free & Thankful
St. Judas the Traitor 1st Ward - Meetup - Sunday, May 1st, 10:00am at Harmons (Draper, UT) - ***New photo at bottom of thread***
by BITE ME
Portland Oregon Ex-Mormon Meetup - May 15
by LessMon
What might the Church look like in the future?
by Smitty
Dan Dennett on the "Faith" card
by Celestial Wedgie
The temple taught me the value of apostasy
by Morethanmo
My sister escaped and she's poking the hornet nest
by Bruce A Holt
Thanks for the slaughter, God
by Strong Free & Thankful
Richard Turley of Swedish Rescue fame
by Quartersawn
Why do you think the Witnesses never recanted their testimonies?
by LostInParadise
The Several Facets of Truth
by son of perdition
Hornet's nest
by Bruce A Holt 

   http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/42253/