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Guilt and Fear ruin relationships  
Posted: 09 May 2016 07:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Jon Marshall
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 My wife and I were talking yesterday after a great day of celebrating Mothers Day and we were talking about the Church and the Tyler Glenn music video. I then told her about his one on one interview that i just watched and saw a different version of the anger in the video. In some of the segements of his interview you could see him tear up when he was speaking about the Church, his family and friends, the fear of what could happen and the years of what he thought was true was coming down. 
 
I told my wife that i see that Fear in her all the time when it comes to anything about the Church and how it will be percieved by her family or even people in the ward.   She has such a faith that the Church is true. Some of the things i have told her, she agrees with,  and she doesn't like some of the recent things the Church has done and said,  but she also has been taught her whole life never to question.  So she will not research anymore than she has to. She says she has me for that. I will not ever deny her her faith. Its her, its who she is.
 
What I try to do with her and with others is for them to look beyond what you are told, see what has been changed, read the essays.
 
She is so afraid to offending her family and friends that she doesn't see whats clearly in front of her face sometimes when it comes to the Church.  
 
Most people i have talked to who are TBM. Are fearful of ruining relationships. They feel guilty for thinking in ways that are not inline with what their family has taught them and believed over the years.  
 
Religion is a very powerful, painful, make or break part of the Mormon relationships. I have lost many friends and some family who see my vocalness and blog as ANTI when I have never said anything ANTI about the Church. I have just posted B of M scriptures that contradict what the Church says and also Essays and my experiences.  
 
I thank you all who have read it and continue to share my posts. I have been putting it off lately, but I am going to share the "Trash" video and maybe some quotes of the Jeff Holland talk. And my responses to that.
 
 
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Posted: 10 May 2016 08:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Celestial Wedgie
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Jon, I agree with the observation that the LDS religion has so much power over relationships, keeping people unobtrusively captive by implied and actual threats to the loves of their lives. My own experience in divorcing after 25+ years of marriage was that yes, the LDS church can threaten and destory the most important, precious relationships of our lives. It caused so much hurt to me, my ex-wife, and our kids. I hope that your wife finds a way of extricating herself from the bind. Both of you would have more freedom and happiness. 

   


Posted: 10 May 2016 11:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized
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I've brought this up before, but it bears repeating. One of the biggest hurdles in my marriage is that my DW will trust 15 men in suits whom she has never met, over me whom she has known intimately for over 20 years. If she sees a debit purchase from a coffee shop, she immediately accuses me of drinking coffee, even if all I bought was a donut or a sandwich. She fully believes the conditioning she has been fed by the church her entire life. As soon as I told her I no longer believed in the church, all my actions were immediately suspect. It's been that way for several years now.
 
It's hard. Every time she gushes about the church I keep mute, because if I say anything against the church ... well ... let's just say it's not worth it. It breaks my heart. These liars she's never met but has been conditioned to revere and fawn over hold more sway with her than I ever will. 
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Posted: 10 May 2016 07:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Religion is so dangerous!  It has power to cause those who love you--to turn on you viciously.  Religion has the power to cause those you love--and who love you-- to become your worst enemies.  Religion has the power to steal loyalty, which should have been yours, and take it for itself.  When this happens, then you begin to understand how deep the brainwashing really is.  Isn't this the extreme opposite of love and goodness?  If there were to be a devil, where could a devil be found more evil than one who can take the love someone used to have for you and turn it into hate? 
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 11 May 2016 04:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
Hank
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Matter Unorganized:
I've brought this up before, but it bears repeating. One of the biggest hurdles in my marriage is that my DW will trust 15 men in suits whom she has never met, over me whom she has known intimately for over 20 years. If she sees a debit purchase from a coffee shop, she immediately accuses me of drinking coffee, even if all I bought was a donut or a sandwich. She fully believes the conditioning she has been fed by the church her entire life. As soon as I told her I no longer believed in the church, all my actions were immediately suspect. It's been that way for several years now.
 
It's hard. Every time she gushes about the church I keep mute, because if I say anything against the church ... well ... let's just say it's not worth it. It breaks my heart. These liars she's never met but has been conditioned to revere and fawn over hold more sway with her than I ever will. 
 
This really strikes a chord with me as well. We've been married for 17 years. I was a card carrying TBM until a couple years ago. I know that if it was her that came to me with a church truth crisis, I would've been shocked, and thus curious to see what had shaken her. She doesn't seem to have any such curiosity or interest on how it has affected me.


   


Posted: 11 May 2016 04:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Smitty
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I've seen it also.  I've been married for almost 18 years now and I've questioned the church for about 8 years.  Anytime the subject came up, I would get the "we're not on the same path" or "we don't want the same things" speech from my TBM DW.  Even though she hasn't been to church in years, she would blame me for her not attending because I never want to go.  The church promotes this idea of family but only if you follow the rules.  Anything outside the norm is considered abnormal.  Guess I'm truly abnormal since not only do I not agree with the church, but I don't agree with any religions at all.  Its the fear of not being together forever that scares her to death.  Funny thing is that all we have is this life and its better to make this a damn good run and not be looking forward to what's next.
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Posted: 11 May 2016 05:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
CUtekittypUnk
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It's not just religion that is the problem. It's people with authority. Like when my grade schooler comes home to tell me something they learned in Kindergarten. Sometimes I have to correct something they learned. But do they believe me? No!
They complain and defend their teacher. "But my teacher said it was so!"
 
So that's who they believe. I guess that's why a lot of people home school.
 
Kids are young and impressionable. With time we parents can correct but we got to be on top of our game.
 
But y'all are right about the religious authority - it is much stronger than a school teacher because, they think - if I don't do this or that or believe with all my heart, I won't get to live with God (or family again)
 
I personally realized a long time ago, that I wouldn't want to live with a God like that anyways, but most haven't figured that one out yet. 


   


Posted: 12 May 2016 07:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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Jon Marshall
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I asked a co-worker " why do they let 15 men dictate how they should live their lives? "
 
They had no answer.  They just said that is how its always been. That they were taught to never question a messanger from God.  
 
I feel so stupid for letting them have an influence in my life over the years when i was active to semi active. I always felt I had to live up to what they taught. I fought it, but it always came back to what OTHERS saw, needed, wanted and expected. I finally got past that thinking.
 
I hope that my friends and family will start to see that these Men are not GOD. They are not called of God. Most of them have the same last name as the ones before. They are related through generations and marriage. 
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2015 Conference
"LEAVING A LEGACY"
October 16-18
Doubletree Suites
SLC, Utah










 


Financial Report for 2011 to Date

Financial Report for 2010 to Date

Financial Report for 2009

Twin Falls Newspaper Article

Twin Falls Billboard

Financial Report for 2009 to Date




The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]

Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]

Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]



Summer Schedule
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/1)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
Coming up May 1’st 2016 - Kristyn Decker to lecture!
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (4/3)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
Imprompu get-together
[Dead Prophets Soc...] 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (3/6)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series- March 6th, 2016 Author Dave Nelson
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
Open House Meetup: 3/19/16
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
Train ride and picnic Meetup: 2/27/16
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series February 7th, 2016- Joe Rawlins
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
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[San Francisco Bay...] 
Jan 10th, 2016-Southern Utah PostMormons will present an outstanding lecture combo
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Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
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The Mormon Mask
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Resignation Letter to My Family
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Resignation Letter to My Family
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Top 13 Myths About Former Mormons  
Posted: 10 May 2016 10:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
tyhollin
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TOP 13 MYTHS ABOUT FORMER MORMONS


1. THEY JUST WANT TO SIN 

First off, believing in the church never prevented anyone from sinning and sinning doesn't mean you've let go of your faith. With that said, leaving the church doesn't necessarily make you less moral. In fact, most of us feel the integrity and morality that once supplied us with an earnest testimony, is now ironically the same driving force behind leaving what we thought we knew, to reconcile our hearts with truth. 

2. THIS IS JUST A PHASE 

While some people may experience phases of inactivity, it's important to remember that many of us let go of our entire belief and not just our Sunday plans. 

3. THEY DON'T ACTUALLY BELIEVE THE CHURCH ISN'T TRUE 

Trust me, we aren't betting our eternal salvation and personal relationships for the opportunity to annoy you on Facebook. We're quite certain. 

4. THEY JUST WANT ATTENTION

Leaving the church is isolating and commonly incites stark rejection. If we wanted attention we'd be the first to bare our testimony, not the first to denounce it.  

5. THEY HAVE BEEN OVERCOME BY SATAN

So then why aren't we arranging for exorcisms instead of excommunications? 

6. THEY ARE JUST MAD AT THE CHURCH

This one isn't really a myth. It's just that "hurt" is a better adjective. That same pain you feel when someone says upsetting things about the church, is the same pain we felt when we discovered upsetting things about the church. The only difference between the frustration of current and former members is former members believe the church is culpable for the faults—and not the members. 

7. THEY CANT LEAVE THE CHURCH ALONE 

Remember that we aren't the ones knocking doors and lobbying at the state capital. Also, we find ourselves marginalized in a way that makes us feel we have to explain our reasons in order to not be blamed for leaving. Unfortunately, when we do explain we get marginalized further for talking about it, which only increases the blame in our direction. This makes us feel like we need to explain ourselves even more. It's a helpless feeling. This cycle would end if those who didn't care to understand our position didn't make assertions about our character or reasons for leaving. If you can't help but make assertions, you should be willing to try and understand our perspective. 

8. THEY NEVER HAD A TESTIMONY TO BEGIN WITH 

This would be like claiming children never had a genuine belief in Santa Clause when they inadvertently stumble upon their gifts in their parents closet a week before Christmas. Learning of information that was omitted doesn't negate prior belief. I encourage anyone who feels this way to listen to any of the many stories of former Mormon's faith crisis. I think you will realize a former lack of faith has nothing to do with their leaving the church.  

10. THEY'RE MAD AT GOD 

Those of us who believe in God aren't frustrated because we feel that God lead us astray about our church. We are frustrated because we feel our church lead us astray about God. 

11. THEY DON'T LIKE OTHER MORMONS

This one is probably the most painful. Our love for others and our disbelief are 100% mutually exclusive. Nothing the church has done or will ever do, will change the respect we have for those who we genuinely love and who genuinely love us. 

12. THEY'RE LISTENING TO ANTI-MORMON LITERATURE 

If this is the case than LDS(.org) is the largest anti-Mormon website on the net. Almost all of the concerns former members have, have been cited and verified through the church's own official resources. Take the "CES letter" for example, when the author Jeremy Runnells wrote the letter he utilized the church's own resources to cite his concerns. He then has asked the church two questions only, "(1) If the letter is incorrect, please explain how so it can be corrected. (2) If it isn't incorrect, why am I being charged with apostasy?" His apostasy charges were still applied. Yet, his counsel refused to answer either question. 

He has since resigned. 

Ironically, current Mormons are now the ones using "unofficial" sources for apologetics to attempt to answer the concerns. The church has yet to respond to our concerns with anything other than blame towards us in the form of disciplinary counsel.  

13. THEY ARE JUST UNHAPPY PEOPLE

Please don't mistake our ill-feelings towards the church as ill-feelings for life. Yes, talking about the church that we feel hurt us does elicit deep emotions, but conversations about the church are only a tiny facet of our current lives. If you feel this way about someone, you are likely ignoring other facets of that Individuals life.  

We left the church to empower our lives and pursue truth. This lends us an incredible amount of genuine; compassion, empowerment, joy, love and happiness. 


   


Posted: 11 May 2016 05:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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THIS.IS.GREAT.     
 
Thanks for putting this into words. Couldn't have said it better myself. 
 
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Posted: 11 May 2016 07:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Lazarus
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Bravo! That is a great list and excellent rebuttals. 

   


Posted: 11 May 2016 12:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Excellent!  
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 11 May 2016 03:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Posted: 12 May 2016 07:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Posted: 13 May 2016 12:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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DenverDude
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The most annoying for me is the "they aren't happy" one. I can abide someone believing my beer is devil blood or thinking I'm made about whatever. But I have low tolerance for people telling me what I feel. When I tell my family and still-active LDS friends that I'm happy, their reactions range from comical to disturbing. Some think I'm lying. Some just don't believe me. Some are confused how. And some get visibly angry.
 
When my wife told a former member she left to be happier, the woman shot back sharply "the Church IS happiness!" More circular arguments. The Church "is happiness" so if you're in the church and unhappy, you clearly aren't churching enough. It's those incorrect connections that are taught from the pulpit that hurt the church a great deal. 
 
The Apostles quote Viktor Frankl's Man's Search For Meaning all the time, and his premise is happiness is a choice we can make regardless of our circumstances. No one can give you happiness. Certainly not a religious institution. There are happy and miserable Mormons and some are sinning and some are sinning less. Zero correlation. 
 
You could add a sub-category for anytime you partake of anything verboten. Had a beer? You're an alcoholic. Doesn't matter if it's two or three a week. Any drinking = alcoholism.
 
Pot is legal in my state. I don't use, but the former (and current) members who use it are regarded as pot-heads and drug addicts. These are people who maintain jobs and smoke on weekends or when they're home.
 
Wearing a tank top in public? You're a slut teaching your child slutty ways. It couldn't possibly be that she's warm and wants to cool off. And I love how the onus is on women to hide their bodies for wicken men, and not for men to force themselves to look at women as human beings and check themselves rather than insist half the planet dress differently because I can't handle bare shoulders.
 
/end rant. 


   


            
 
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Living in Spirit Prison?  
Posted: 06 May 2016 10:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
Fruit Fly
Jr. Member
RankRank
Joined  2016-03-29
 
  
 
I'm a somewhat shadow Mormon, I go to SM only and refuse all else.  I'm keeping a journal of my own personal thoughts and wanted to share this one. I'm slowly coming out but it's creating tears.
 
Thinking back on my own experience with the Church. Activity means shackled to a church job week after week. I accepted Church Jobs out of respect, support of the Bishop and also, the Lord has selected you. “Bro Apostate, The Lord has called you to be the Nursery Leader” “Yes please, give me more!” I neither wanted nor needed these callings but must accept in order to find favor with the Church and God.
 
Along with general Ward callings you can have Stake callings and a Home Teaching or Visiting Teaching route. Leadership callings can double, triple and sometimes quadruple your involvement. Volunteerism is encouraged so we put on a good face and away we go. Temple attendance is optional but then we are constantly asked to go. Sometimes you serve in the Temple on top of all your other callings (unless the Bishop is constrained by the Lord to release you)
 
As Home Teachers and Visiting Teachers as well as leadership callings, there's a constant push to bring back lost souls. In Young Men/Young Women the goal seemed to always engage the inactive kids. As adults we have our visiting routes. Some families just don't want visits but we must go to their home and humiliate ourselves to grovel to let us in. There are reasons people go inactive that Members just don't seem to consider valid. But we just can't leave them alone. We feel responsible for them and we are driven by our own guilt and shame for not connecting with them. Inactivity is viewed more as getting distracted by sports, girls, work, life too busy and of course choosing to live contrary to the Church. Disagreeing with the Church is not even an option. To Believing Members, The Church is Perfect and True. It just doesn't make sense why people can not believe in it! The internet is turning out to be a resourceful distraction. For my own sanity, let sleeping dogs lay.
 
 
For me the most degrading aspect of membership is wanting to be what I cannot be.  I must sacrifice my time, my talent, my money, my possessions and anything I might be blessed with in the future.  So I ask you How is this NOT like Spirit Prison?? I want to soar like a bird, unleash my potential, live life and love life. I want to go places, to explore and experience! I want to choose for myself what it is that makes me happy.  I must put on the mask daily to show support for my family and extended family.  To give the good fight, to be an eternal family.  I'm held captive by these invisible chains.  I relinquish my fanciful hopes and desires.  To struggle against the chains causes emotional trauma for my Loved Ones.  My life is ruled by this one and only solitary and pitiful reason.
 
“I can't, I'm Mormon”


   


Posted: 06 May 2016 12:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized
Long Timer
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Joined  2011-01-22
 
  
 
Holy cow, your experience mirrors my own, right down to being a "shadow mormon". Great term! I suspect a goodly number of people here will share many elements of what you report. 
 
There is a new bishop in "my" ward. I suppose this means I'm going to have to explain to him all over again that I'm not interested, disinterested and uninterested. I haven't had a calling in well over 5 years now and it's great. Other than Sundays (I attend SM to keep the peace at home), I am absolutely free of church-imposed time constraints. And I no longer have to say "I can't, I'm mormon." Now I say "Sure! Let's do it!"
 
That, my drosophila melanogaster friend, is priceless.
 
 
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You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler


   


Posted: 06 May 2016 07:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Winyan
Long Timer
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Joined  2007-10-31
 
  
 
Hi Fruit Fly, and welcome to the forum. You're definitely not alone in the things you're feeling. I'm interested in what you might choose to do differently with your life now if you could. 

   


Posted: 06 May 2016 08:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Elder OldDog
Moderator
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Joined  2009-07-30
 
  
 
We each answer this question, and if we can, we pay the price.  But not everyone can afford it:
 
 
"What price freedom?" 
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Posted: 06 May 2016 10:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
Fruit Fly
Jr. Member
RankRank
Joined  2016-03-29
 
  
 
Hello Winyan, Yes I have given some thought to what I want to do but can I? The story that follows is my first charge to freedom. It's been a couple of years since I came to the final conclusion. For me It comes down to the nature of God. You can present all kinds of evidence to a Mormon and they will hold tight to the Rod and cling to their precious testimony! Seems like when I attack God, they don't have a good comeback. They are stumped. I do however believe in a God, just not the God of religion or the God of conditions. Love God or Go to Hell! I told my wife don't believe any more. It is the God of religion I cannot believe in. I pointed out several things that just don't add up. She said “I will continue to believe”. So My Doc says to me “You got to stop drinking Soda Pop”. I asked “is Coffee okay” “Sure, but drink it black or with a little milk.” I felt guilty as hell but the next morning I went down to the local Dutch Bros Coffee Shop. I ordered an Americana. One of my coffee drinking work buddies happened to like Americana so I remembered the name. I an looking in the rear view mirror, looking at other cars in line. I couldn't wait to get back home. I was sure I would get caught buying a Coffee. I have a home office in my shop. Internet Research gave me a list of Coffee drinks I could try next. It was fun to explore. With all the research I discovered many ways to brew coffee My wife was heading to Utah to visit family and friends. I started purchasing coffee gear. I purchased a grinder, scale, Aeropress, electric kettle and coffee beans. Finally I had everything I needed to get my first cup of coffee brewed at home. I measured out 18 grams of beans, ground them and put them in the Aeropress. After pouring hot water into the Aeropress I waited for about 1 min. Then pressed out the coffee. Bringing the cup to my lips I sipped a slurp. The coffee sat on my tongue for a second. YUCK! YUCK! YUCK!, I had to spit it out it was disgusting! It tasted like Charcoal. It was horrible. After a bit of research, I discovered I purchased Italian Roast which is the darkest roast you can get before the coffee is totally burnt to a crisp. I learned my lesson. My favorite roast is medium roast. I got careless one morning and didn't put my coffee gear away. I usually kept it in an ice chest to hide the coffee smell. My wife came out and smelled the coffee. She didn't say anything but I knew she smelled it. That night she asked me “I smelled coffee in your office. Are you drinking Coffee?” I replied “Yes!” she started to cry. Almost sobbing. Next thing she asked “are you having sex with other women too?” At that point I was bewildered. How do I talk my way out of this one. It was a long night. We talked for about 3 hours. We are now doing better. No longer feel like estranged room mates but getting along as we used to as a good ole married Mormon couple. Obviously I need to go slow and weigh the pros and cons of each choice. Next up... Beer! 

   


Posted: 07 May 2016 03:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
Avatar
Morethanmo
Long Timer
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Joined  2014-07-24
 
  
 
Fruit Fly:
Hello Winyan, Yes I have given some thought to what I want to do but can I? The story that follows is my first charge to freedom. It's been a couple of years since I came to the final conclusion. For me It comes down to the nature of God. You can present all kinds of evidence to a Mormon and they will hold tight to the Rod and cling to their precious testimony! Seems like when I attack God, they don't have a good comeback. They are stumped. I do however believe in a God, just not the God of religion or the God of conditions. Love God or Go to Hell! I told my wife don't believe any more. It is the God of religion I cannot believe in. I pointed out several things that just don't add up. She said “I will continue to believe”. So My Doc says to me “You got to stop drinking Soda Pop”. I asked “is Coffee okay” “Sure, but drink it black or with a little milk.” I felt guilty as hell but the next morning I went down to the local Dutch Bros Coffee Shop. I ordered an Americana. One of my coffee drinking work buddies happened to like Americana so I remembered the name. I an looking in the rear view mirror, looking at other cars in line. I couldn't wait to get back home. I was sure I would get caught buying a Coffee. I have a home office in my shop. Internet Research gave me a list of Coffee drinks I could try next. It was fun to explore. With all the research I discovered many ways to brew coffee My wife was heading to Utah to visit family and friends. I started purchasing coffee gear. I purchased a grinder, scale, Aeropress, electric kettle and coffee beans. Finally I had everything I needed to get my first cup of coffee brewed at home. I measured out 18 grams of beans, ground them and put them in the Aeropress. After pouring hot water into the Aeropress I waited for about 1 min. Then pressed out the coffee. Bringing the cup to my lips I sipped a slurp. The coffee sat on my tongue for a second. YUCK! YUCK! YUCK!, I had to spit it out it was disgusting! It tasted like Charcoal. It was horrible. After a bit of research, I discovered I purchased Italian Roast which is the darkest roast you can get before the coffee is totally burnt to a crisp. I learned my lesson. My favorite roast is medium roast. I got careless one morning and didn't put my coffee gear away. I usually kept it in an ice chest to hide the coffee smell. My wife came out and smelled the coffee. She didn't say anything but I knew she smelled it. That night she asked me “I smelled coffee in your office. Are you drinking Coffee?” I replied “Yes!” she started to cry. Almost sobbing. Next thing she asked “are you having sex with other women too?” At that point I was bewildered. How do I talk my way out of this one. It was a long night. We talked for about 3 hours. We are now doing better. No longer feel like estranged room mates but getting along as we used to as a good ole married Mormon couple. Obviously I need to go slow and weigh the pros and cons of each choice. Next up... Beer!
 
 My father reacted similarly when I tild him I didn't believe. He asked if I was going to commit a crime. Mormons always jump to the extreme because they were taught that any one bad choice leads to all the other bad choices. They don't think about things like "self control" when it comes to people who don't believe. I've never been drunk in my life, but my mother is convinced that because I've had a drink, I'm a drunk. I have 1 drink about 2-3 times a month...their logic is baffling. 
 
[corrected spelling error] 
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__________________________________________

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
~Epicurus
__________________________________________


   


Posted: 07 May 2016 08:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
Avatar
tangie17
Member
RankRankRank
Joined  2008-12-29
 
  
 
Morethanmo:
Fruit Fly:
Hello Winyan, Yes I have given some thought to what I want to do but can I? The story that follows is my first charge to freedom. It's been a couple of years since I came to the final conclusion. For me It comes down to the nature of God. You can present all kinds of evidence to a Mormon and they will hold tight to the Rod and cling to their precious testimony! Seems like when I attack God, they don't have a good comeback. They are stumped. I do however believe in a God, just not the God of religion or the God of conditions. Love God or Go to Hell! I told my wife don't believe any more. It is the God of religion I cannot believe in. I pointed out several things that just don't add up. She said “I will continue to believe”. So My Doc says to me “You got to stop drinking Soda Pop”. I asked “is Coffee okay” “Sure, but drink it black or with a little milk.” I felt guilty as hell but the next morning I went down to the local Dutch Bros Coffee Shop. I ordered an Americana. One of my coffee drinking work buddies happened to like Americana so I remembered the name. I an looking in the rear view mirror, looking at other cars in line. I couldn't wait to get back home. I was sure I would get caught buying a Coffee. I have a home office in my shop. Internet Research gave me a list of Coffee drinks I could try next. It was fun to explore. With all the research I discovered many ways to brew coffee My wife was heading to Utah to visit family and friends. I started purchasing coffee gear. I purchased a grinder, scale, Aeropress, electric kettle and coffee beans. Finally I had everything I needed to get my first cup of coffee brewed at home. I measured out 18 grams of beans, ground them and put them in the Aeropress. After pouring hot water into the Aeropress I waited for about 1 min. Then pressed out the coffee. Bringing the cup to my lips I sipped a slurp. The coffee sat on my tongue for a second. YUCK! YUCK! YUCK!, I had to spit it out it was disgusting! It tasted like Charcoal. It was horrible. After a bit of research, I discovered I purchased Italian Roast which is the darkest roast you can get before the coffee is totally burnt to a crisp. I learned my lesson. My favorite roast is medium roast. I got careless one morning and didn't put my coffee gear away. I usually kept it in an ice chest to hide the coffee smell. My wife came out and smelled the coffee. She didn't say anything but I knew she smelled it. That night she asked me “I smelled coffee in your office. Are you drinking Coffee?” I replied “Yes!” she started to cry. Almost sobbing. Next thing she asked “are you having sex with other women too?” At that point I was bewildered. How do I talk my way out of this one. It was a long night. We talked for about 3 hours. We are now doing better. No longer feel like estranged room mates but getting along as we used to as a good ole married Mormon couple. Obviously I need to go slow and weigh the pros and cons of each choice. Next up... Beer!
 
 My father reacted similarly when I tild him I didn't believe. He asked if I was going to commit a crime. Mormons always jump to the extreme because they were taught that any one bad choice leads to all the other bad choices. They don't think about things like "self control" when it comes to people who don't believe. I've never been drunk in my life, but my mother is convinced that because I've had a drink, I'm a drunk. I have 1 drink about 2-3 times a month...their logic is baffling. 
 
[corrected spelling error] 
 My Mom was baffled to discover that I was "still a good person " after leaving the church.  It is scary that Mormons have the impression that the church is the only reason people aren't running around drunk 24/7 and having sex in the streets with strangers.  I am a rational human being that is able to decide to act appropriately and behave in a mentally sound fashion without weekly Sunday School reminders.  I believe that they have forgotten that they possess intellect and common sense.  Good luck Fruit Fly, I know the transition is tough, but the freedom is sooooo worth it.
 


   


Posted: 07 May 2016 11:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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Quartersawn
Long Timer
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Congratulations on finding the joy of 'boiled brown bean juice.' I started out with a coffee drink in the cooler section of the grocery store. It is a cappucino drink, delicous to the taste, and very desirable. Then I got a pot at home (my ex liked the smell of coffee, hated me drinking it, but let me have a pot in the kitchen-might as well keep him at home), moved to cream and sugar and only a month later to black coffee. I figured I could do without the sugar and cream for weight loss purposes. 
After I started drinking coffee I lost 40 pounds, found more energy. I lost the desire for sweet foods that had been the staple of my mormon diet for decades. 
 
When you start with beer don't go for the cheap piss water or the expensive brews, something in the middle that has some flavor but not so bitter or strong it will knock you off the chair.   (I had a $25 bottle of beer the other day that was incredible, it was bittered with dandelion leafs, damn good stuff. I didn't know it was $25 when I ordered it, but I did enjoy it very much with my swordfish sandwich). 
 
You are wise to take things slowly, and with good communication, you'll make it out just fine. 
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Why would you consider a man a prophet whose morals are worse than your own? Having claimed to commune with deity, be visited by angels and receive revelations, should he not be held to a higher standard? —me


   


Posted: 09 May 2016 08:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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Celestial Wedgie
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Fruit Fly/Drosophila, welcome to PostMo. This is the first time I've read a post from you and so I'm just getting to know you. It's good to have you join our conversations.
 
I like that you are going slowly. Your wife will be flummoxed at your wanderings into a freer life. If she is like most true-believing Mormons she will only see two sides to the world: Inside the belief fence or out into the dangerous and wicked world outside the boundaries. She doesn't know that terrain at all. Although it sounds humorously naïve, I like that she asked if you are also violating the rule against adultery. She must love you and want you to be faithful to her. My guess is that she needs reassurance on this front. So if it is true please reassure her! Let her know that you find her beautiful, that you treasure your marriage, that you love her, and that your life is better because she is so much a part of it.
 
Although she is still standing inside the fence, your ventures are like a lantern casting light around you, letting her safely watch and learn about the world beyond. There's probably no need to push into other domains at this point. Let coffee be today's exploration and give her time to adjust.
 
Again, welcome to our forum. And thanks for the interesting topic!
 
* Edit to add: I looked back and saw that I read your introduction on the INTRODUCE YOURSELF thread. Oops! 


   


Posted: 09 May 2016 09:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
leftasteen
Member
RankRankRank
Joined  2014-12-08
 
  
 
Wow. Your wife's leap from discovering your coffee to asking if this meant you were having sex with other women blew me away.
 
I left mormonism as a teen, and I was not in Utah.  I had friends, school, and life outside Mormonism so it was easy.  Consequently, I have been somewhat dismissive of the social suffering that some on this forum have talked about.
 
But your little anecdote really puts into perspective the monumental challenge faced by those in the Morridor.  
 
A system of beliefs where a cup of coffee makes your wife ask that question is cult-like indoctrination.  
 
I can't imagine how challenging it will be for you to create a path to that freedom you spoke of without giving up your family entirely.  Good luck. 


   


Posted: 11 May 2016 08:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
Fruit Fly
Jr. Member
RankRank
Joined  2016-03-29
 
  
 
Thanks for the responses. I am happy today and I can say I finally found Joy in life! Living as my conscience approves really is better for my well being than living by the Church dichotomy. I'm in stealth mode as I move forward with my new life. I'm of the opinion "What she doesn't know won't hurt her" at least in the short term. I know that is deceptive but I learned how to deceive from my Mormon upbringing. I have always viewed Mormonism as just another fish in the sea. I view all peoples as basically the same. From there, why do we gravitate to the religions we each gravitate too? For my entire TBM existence, I had trouble with the claim that the LDS Church is the only true church on the earth. I've listened to podcasts by secular Atheist and Humanist groups. I found that all of the open questions I had in Mormonism and religion in general were answered or confirmed by either of these groups. I agree and align more closely with Atheism. I do believe there is an afterlife however I don't hold on to the all powerful God notion. You know what is odd, I never really questioned my Mormon heritage. I didn't question church history or Joseph Smith's claim as Prophet. What was my shelf? it was the cruelty of God and how that cruelty justifies Man's cruelty to each other. My shelf crashed because of the many faces of God and his cruelty. I'm always told to pray and read the scriptures for answers. WTF! Which face do I want to relate with? Once I saw that God is not the same yesterday, today and forever, I realized God is an invention of man to manipulate the behavior of men. God cannot be conditional and Love in the same breath. Believing in a Cruel God justifies cruelty to each other. Once I realized God is fiction, I was free. Judgement is imaginary. You are judged only when you confess. The Religion is a three legged stool. Each leg is Fear, Guilt and Shame. When I no longer fear God, the stool cannot stand. From there the dominos started to fall. I wish my Wife and Family could see what I see.
 
EDIT: Just wanted to make something clear about my explorations...  I have committed my fidelity to my wife.  However, my commitments and covenants to the church are off the table.  In a typical Mormon Marriage you have each other and the voyueristic church peeping in on you to make sure you are doing what you promised.  I've closed the curtains on the peeping Tom outside my window and let out the Dog.


   


Posted: 11 May 2016 10:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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Celestial Wedgie
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Fruit Fly: The three legs of religion are guilt, shame, and fear. I like that. It could be handy in a conversation some day. 

   


Posted: 11 May 2016 06:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
Long Timer
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Joined  2008-08-12
 
  
 
The church with it's pablum stories treats their membership like children, to be babysat while god does other things. The whiny voices give it away.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 12 May 2016 06:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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incawhite
Sr. Member
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Joined  2013-11-19
 
  
 

Fruit Fly, 
 
Thank you for your post.
 
I found this interesting book, with some surprising answers about Spirit Prision.
 
Roswell - Alien Interview  http://www.thenewearth.org/Roswell.pdf  
 
"Anyone who is not willing or able to submit to mindless economic, political and religious servitude as a taxpaying worker in the class system of the "Old Empire" are "untouchable" and sentenced to receive memory wipeout and permanent imprisonment on Earth. The net result is that an IS-BE  is unable to escape because they can't remember who they are, where they came from, where they are. They have been hypnotized to think they are someone, something, sometime, and somewhere other than were they really are.  Page 64 
 
on page  57 explains the meaning of "IS-BE"
 
Very interesting book, if real, has some of the most  surprising answers of our existence. 
 


   


Posted: 12 May 2016 06:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized
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I don't have PhotoShop where I work, but I do have MS Paint and I love this metaphor. 
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You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler


   


Posted: 12 May 2016 08:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
Free2Live
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Joined  2012-09-01
 
  
 
Matter Unorganized:
I don't have PhotoShop where I work, but I do have MS Paint and I love this metaphor. 
 
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Posted: 13 May 2016 12:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
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DenverDude
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Thanks for sharing, Fruit Fly. You have decide what makes you happy and go that direction.
 
For myself, once I removed myself from the church I realized most of the crap the Church as members do is just to perpetuate Members doing stuff at Church and has no real value with regards to the Church. Sure, you make friends, can be a good influence on others and enjoy service. But there's so many meetings and very little work comes out of them. It's like a bunch of meetings for meeting's sake.
 
I was a Ward Mission Leader and between PEC, Ward Council, Sacrament Meeting, teaching Gospel Essentials, Priesthoon and Ward Corelation Meeting, I was at Church 8 hours every Sunday. It was terrible.
 
So grateful I have my Sundays for (irony) my family. 


   


Posted: 13 May 2016 08:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
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Celestial Wedgie
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DenverDude:
Thanks for sharing, Fruit Fly. You have decide what makes you happy and go that direction.
 
For myself, once I removed myself from the church I realized most of the crap the Church as members do is just to perpetuate Members doing stuff at Church and has no real value with regards to the Church. Sure, you make friends, can be a good influence on others and enjoy service. But there's so many meetings and very little work comes out of them. It's like a bunch of meetings for meeting's sake.
 
I was a Ward Mission Leader and between PEC, Ward Council, Sacrament Meeting, teaching Gospel Essentials, Priesthoon and Ward Corelation Meeting, I was at Church 8 hours every Sunday. It was terrible.
 
So grateful I have my Sundays for (irony) my family. 
 
 I totally agree with this. 


   


            
 
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WHY SO SERIOUS!?  
Posted: 13 May 2016 07:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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I love that line from Heath Ledger as the Joker from Bat Man(right up there with  --  "we're gonna need a bigger boat"  --  who said it and in what movie).  It's Friday the 13th and supposedly a full moon day  --  a twofer!  I though it might be fun to be not so serious  --  so I'm going to share with you some of my pet peeves:
 
1.  I am disgusted with men's bathroom behavior  --  when you do your business, flush the toilet  --  I don't care to inspect you job and you ain't gonna get any M&Ms from me.  BTW, if you use TP as your toilet seat protector(because you might catch germs off of the toilet seat  --  we still worry about that  --  that was an issue when I was a kid and I am 69 years old  --  enough already)flush it  --   oh, and btw, if you pee all over the toilet seat have the common courtesy to clean it off  --  there ain't no bathroom fairy who is going to come and flush it/clean up after you.  I commute to work on Frontrunner(a commuter train that runs from Provo to Ogden in Utah) and the bathrooms are equal opportunity.  Sometimes I follow a woman in using the bathroom and there is urine all over the seat(I've since learned that some women don't like to sit(the infamous germ thing) so they hover in order to do their thing  --  please have the courtesy to wipe off the seat because there is nothing more invigorating than sitting on a wet toilet seat  --  NOT!
2.  In your home, if you used the last of the TP, have the decency to put a new roll on the spindle  --  and for the sake of your guests have replacement rolls of TP in plain sight because their is nothing more terrorizing than having to hunt for the TP when you used the last square.  In our home, I am the TP guardian and when you come to my home, you'll never have to hunt for TP.
3.  If you drink the last of the milk or juice, either say something to the person who purchases said commodities or purchase it yourself(it's passive-aggressive behavior to drink the last drop and then place the empty container back in the frig  --  I drank the last of it and if you want some, go get some.  My FIL would drink the last of the OJ and put the empty container back in the frig with a frozen can of OJ concentrate next to it  --  want some OJ, fix it yourself).  BTW, people who drink directly from the container are absolutely disgusting  --  we don't want your backwash in our milk or juice  --  don't be so lazy and get a glass.  BTW, if you eat the last cookie don't rub it in the face of others by putting the empty package on the counter  --  I ate the last cookie  --  if you want one  --  too bad(oh, I'm just teasing  --  yea, right).
4.  If your feet stink, do something about it.  Our son brought a friend along on a trip and he took his shoes off in the car. It was the rankest thing ever  --  we asked him to put his shoes back on before we all died(he was a good kid with a great sense of humor and he already knew he had stinking feet).  People shouldn't have to endure your stinking feet or BO either  --  take care of them or be prepared to have others remind you regularly that you STINK.(BTW, if someone anonymously sends you foot spray or BO cologne  --  they're sending you a message and double btw, any kid under 10 one day will tell you that you stink).
5.  Some people think that it is OK for them to touch other people.  I have seen women go up to a pregnant woman and touch her pregnant belly as if it was OK for them to do that.  I know that they are oblivious to the fact that it can appear creepy by the pregnant mom.  I remember reading how some morgbots "feel you up" to see if you are wearing your magical undies and all I can say is   ----  WOW.
6.  People who are too lazy to put their shopping cart in the cart corral and instead park it in the car stall next to them or even worse, park it in the handicap parking stall.  Sometimes, it is just a matter of 2-3 feet  --  the height of laziness!
7.  People who chew gum like Bossie out in the back 40 ruminating on her cud(I like that word  --  ruminating  --  I had a friend who used it regularly instead of thinking/pondering  --  he would make me chuckle).  If you are going to chew gum, chew it so people don't realize that you are chewing it.
8.  People who have a shopping cart full of groceries and they are standing in  the line for15 items and under between two people who have 15 items or under.  To be motioned into that line by the cashier is a totally different scenario  --  I have had that happen many times.  Always makes me nervous  --  I have yet to have  someone ask me if I know how to count  --  of course, that all depends if it is regular counting or common core counting.
9.  People in line at the fast food place who have been in line long enough to know what they want before they get to the counter but no, they need more time to decide what delicious delectable they are going to eat  --  making eveyone wait.
10.  People who suffer from the "Urkel Disease".  You remember Steve Urkel who would say  --  "Did I do that" hear in your mind that nasal sound when he really messed up.  There are people out there  --  family, friends, bosses, colleagues, fellow morgbots who do and say things that really piss you off(sometimes unintensionally or sometimes intentionally) and you get pissed off and they say so innocently  --  "Did I do that" and you want to rearrange their face with a 2X4.


   


Posted: 13 May 2016 08:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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"We're gonna need a bigger boat..." Roy Scheider as Chief Martin C. Brody in Jaws.
 
 As for your list, some of them I'm 100% with you, some not so much, and some I'll have to ruminate on...
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Posted: 13 May 2016 08:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Kevin2
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I think the movie was Jaws
 
I'll add to your list:
 
1: When someone always asks for advice but does the opposite of that advice
 
2: When people refer to someone as a ____ Nazi. The most common I see is "Grammar Nazi".
 
3: When I'm at working and people are talking loudly near me. I mean come on I'm trying to watch a movie over here.
 
 
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Posted: 13 May 2016 10:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Kevin2.  That reminds me of another one.  People on Frontrunner in specific and other places in general who are talking to somone else or who are talking on their cell phone so that everyone within earshot can hear their conversation.
 
OO, OO(as Horshack would say  --  name the TV sitcom that was the beginning for a famous actor).  People who have their music turned up so loud that everyone can hear it and they are using earphones/buds.


   


Posted: 13 May 2016 10:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized:
"We're gonna need a bigger boat..." Roy Scheider as Chief Martin C. Brody in Jaws.
 
 As for your list, some of them I'm 100% with you, some not so much, and some I'll have to ruminate on...
 
 .


   


            
 
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There was a knock at the other the last weekend…  
Posted: 03 May 2016 06:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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So there was a knock at the door a couple Sundays ago.... and it the missionaries.  According to them they were going through the list of unbaptized children in the ward and my family was on the list and would I be interested in getting that taken care of.  I politely told them that I would think about it and get back to them.  Uhm, that ain't gonna happen.  If I wanted my kids baptized I would have already done it.  It me off because they were just phishing probably so they could pad their baptism numbers.   Thankfully my DW didn't push the issue and we will see what happens but its frustrating that we are back on their radar after being off for so long.  I should have answered the door with a beer in my hand, that would have been 
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Posted: 04 May 2016 06:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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I think they are given inactives in the wards or stakes they are in, just to go and plant the seed of THE CHURCH is still here. 
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Posted: 09 May 2016 11:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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When my kids were young, (not in Utah) I let some nice members take them to Primary.  I let the Missionaries give them lessons. Eventually they proposed baptism.  I told my kids not now.  If they wanted to be baptized when they were 18, then they could.
 
Since the one who asked me turned out to be gay, I think she really appreciated my approach.  
 
Of course, now she realizes how ridiculous the Church is. But, I let her explore it.  I guess it was a risk, but I think she learned from it.


   


Posted: 12 May 2016 04:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Jon Marshall:
I think they are given inactives in the wards or stakes they are in, just to go and plant the seed of THE CHURCH is still here. 
 
 I think part of the problem too is the majority of the people in my ward are older folks whose kids have already moved out.  I bet the primary numbers are starting to drop off a little so they need to "recruit" new blood.  Sorry, I like my inactivity and I amd going to let my kids decide what they want to do when they are old enough to understand the ramifications of the decision they are going to make.
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Posted: 12 May 2016 06:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Smitty:
Jon Marshall:
I think they are given inactives in the wards or stakes they are in, just to go and plant the seed of THE CHURCH is still here. 
 
 I think part of the problem too is the majority of the people in my ward are older folks whose kids have already moved out.  I bet the primary numbers are starting to drop off a little so they need to "recruit" new blood.  Sorry, I like my inactivity and I amd going to let my kids decide what they want to do when they are old enough to understand the ramifications of the decision they are going to make.
 
 I agree with that statement about your kids. I am going to be in every bishop interview my little girl has until she is old enough to really understand the questions. If she has concerns or feels uncomfortable, its done.
 
No, OLDER MAN, Leader, teacher or anyone besides her parents and doctor will ever ask her an type of sexual question or make her feel bad for exploring her sexuality as kids do often and a lot.  I am sure they will know that from the first interview when i intervine.
 
 
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Posted: 13 May 2016 07:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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The Church, and religion in general, has had diminishing returns with missionary work despite a surge of missionaries. To make room, many were assigned stateside for cost and ease of making calls.
 
http://www.sltrib.com/news/2413326-155/conversion-rate-lags-behind-mormon-missionary
 

 Today, missionaries are moving away from "conversion at any cost," and aiming for retention and reactivation of non-participating converts, said Matthew Bowman, a history professor at Bowling Green State University in Ohio
 
 
So they had to find stuff for all these 18 year olds to do. Now that the surge is tapering off, they will move back to their original model of "communities of strength" where they focus on areas that they hope to build leadership. 
 
http://religionnews.com/2016/04/19/mormon-growth-slows-to-its-lowest-level-since-1937-heres-why-thats-great-news/ 


   


Posted: 13 May 2016 09:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
Fruit Fly
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My ward has a set of Elders and Sisters.
 
The surge in my area is mostly Sister Missionaries. In my ward they are doing some proselyting but mostly retention activities and getting to the unbaptized kids of record. Yes I see the retention activities going on.
 
My wife is in leadership so I get to hear the skinny on the activity level. The ward we are in has a history of being mostly inactive. The Stake did a shuffle from 6 wards to 7. However, to make the 7th, the existing wards all shrunk. Two wards now are almost on Life Support. Not enough sheeple who will accept callings.
 
On top of the inactivity and adding a ward, the attendance in one of the wards in down by half. So it seems, that by the numbers the wards should have enough members to burst at the seams. In reality they are struggling.
 
Is this the prevailing condition across the Church? or is this localized? 


   


Posted: 13 May 2016 09:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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DenverDude
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Fruit Fly:
My ward has a set of Elders and Sisters.
 
The surge in my area is mostly Sister Missionaries. In my ward they are doing some proselyting but mostly retention activities and getting to the unbaptized kids of record. Yes I see the retention activities going on.
 
My wife is in leadership so I get to hear the skinny on the activity level. The ward we are in has a history of being mostly inactive. The Stake did a shuffle from 6 wards to 7. However, to make the 7th, the existing wards all shrunk. Two wards now are almost on Life Support. Not enough sheeple who will accept callings.
 
On top of the inactivity and adding a ward, the attendance in one of the wards in down by half. So it seems, that by the numbers the wards should have enough members to burst at the seams. In reality they are struggling.
 
Is this the prevailing condition across the Church? or is this localized? 
 
 It depends on where you live. According to the article I linked, there is a net gain for the LDS church as a whole with areas like Africa opening up. However Latin America is no longer growng as fast, and the US and Europe is stable or even in slight decline. So it's possible your particular area is seeing a loss.
 
I know a lot of people my age (36) and younger are leaving or just not joining. So I expect there to be an issue with that going forward. 


   


Posted: 13 May 2016 10:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
Fruit Fly
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I can't read the article from ReligiousNews without signing up with them.  But I remember after the last conference the buzz on the statistical report was "Lowest Growth in 100 years" or something like that. 
 
Seeing the downturn is encouraging to see.  TBMs are actually and finally leaving the Church because they can see through the hoodwinking.  The church is ramping up the rhetoric and driving more than they intended out of the pews.


   


Posted: 13 May 2016 12:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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guywithearrings50
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I've been out of the church for 4 years now, but my wife is still friends with a couple who are strong members, just got back from a senior mission to Europe late last year.
 
Anyway, this sister told us that the two wards that we currently have in our city was changed back to only one ward. (it split into 2 wards back in 2005).
 
She said that the members look on it as a "blessing" because there is strength in numbers and it's nice to have everyone back together again. they must have been really struggling with the two wards.
 
to look on 2 wards going back to one is a blessing not to the members but to the rest of us who have left or want to leave.  it means that the church is shrinking not growing... 


   


            
 
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Soon to be ex-mormon Tyler Glenn (of Neon Trees) Trashes Church in New Video  
Posted: 29 April 2016 07:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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This won't end well!
 
Tyler Glenn's new video starts with a famous painting of JS on the wall but with the face made out to be a skull, and Tyler drinking from a liquor bottle. Another painting is JS in the bedroom with Nephi ... er ... Jesus ... er ... Moroni (I can't keep these different accounts straight anymore), with both faces made out to be like skulls and Moroni in a PINK robe!
 
This article in Rolling Stone includes a link to the video. 
 
Excommunication in 3... 2... 1... 
 
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Posted: 29 April 2016 08:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized:
 
Excommunication in 3... 2... 1... 
 
 
If he hasn't already resigned.
 
The video is epic.  
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Posted: 29 April 2016 12:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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And I so remember the Mormon love of for Neon Trees a couple of years ago, lol.  I have a feeling this is in response to that.
 
Oh, and he WILL be ex'ed.  If you watch his hands - he is giving temple signs and tokens in the elevator an other places in the vid. 
 
BTW - anyone who has been in more Utah temples than I have know what temple this is supposed to be set in?  Given the peepholes in the doors and wall, they are how they are laid out in most endowment rooms and sealing rooms. 
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Posted: 29 April 2016 04:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Tyler Glenn wrote our anthem!
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__________________________________________

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
~Epicurus
__________________________________________


   


Posted: 02 May 2016 07:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Jon Marshall
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I showed my wife the music video because she loves Neon Trees. Well she used to. 
 
She said she couldn't watch it.  Once it got to the part where he was doing the temple signs she was done. She is going to tell her Mom about it and not to watch it. Her mom is very TBM as well as the rest of her family.  They love music, going to concerts and have seen Neon Trees a few times.  I hope that they listen to the words if they do watch it. But i think the symbolisms of the video are going to make them turn it off. 
 
To me, i loved it. The Church can't sue or do much about the pictures with the skulls because its not said or named who it is.  I am just glad that we all know who it is.  And for as shocking as it was to some, I have read some instagram posts by some very TBM's condeming him, it might make them open their eyes and do some research outside of the bubble. 
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Posted: 02 May 2016 09:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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tangie17
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Love that video! Good for him. I remember the days of self loathing because I didn't fit the Mormon mold. I would have loved to give them such a creative middle finger. 

   


Posted: 02 May 2016 03:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Jon Marshall:
I showed my wife the music video because she loves Neon Trees. Well she used to. 
 
She said she couldn't watch it.  Once it got to the part where he was doing the temple signs she was done. She is going to tell her Mom about it and not to watch it. Her mom is very TBM as well as the rest of her family.  They love music, going to concerts and have seen Neon Trees a few times.  I hope that they listen to the words if they do watch it. But i think the symbolisms of the video are going to make them turn it off. 
 
To me, i loved it. The Church can't sue or do much about the pictures with the skulls because its not said or named who it is.  I am just glad that we all know who it is.  And for as shocking as it was to some, I have read some instagram posts by some very TBM's condeming him, it might make them open their eyes and do some research outside of the bubble. 
 
 Even if it wanted to, or legally could, the Church will not sue.  It would be a lose, lose situation for them.  The know it is going to be bad enough to excommunicate a famous gay man after the dictat on not baptising children of same sex couple.  To go further to take actual legal action - they would be SERIOUSLY hurt in the PR department across the country.
 
And - if they did go to court - it opensthe door to bring in the entire temple ceremony, its changes, and all of that into the court record.  They are not going to risk how much that opens them up to their own borrowing from Freemasonry.  It's been a century since those kinds of things were in an official record - the Smoot hearings.  No one sees that anymore.  Now, just imagine the reaction of TBMs to testimony of Church officials under oath admitting a few nasty truths.
 
The Church's only alternative is going to be in full damage control over this. 
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Posted: 04 May 2016 06:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
Tavius99
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I bought the song.  

   


Posted: 05 May 2016 06:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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WinstonSmith
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I had to watch it a couple of time, but I am possitive that Tyler spit a big old Loogie on JS portrait
 
If I remember the language correctly in the temple endownment---the covenant is not to reveal the token with the accompanying name and sign. Didn't see Tyler do that
 
What is the symbolism of Tyler drawing an "X" across his face---I saw it as the Church marking him as irrelevant---thoughts? 
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“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”  -Marcus Aurelius


   


Posted: 10 May 2016 10:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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Silver Girl
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WinstonSmith:
I had to watch it a couple of time, but I am possitive that Tyler spit a big old Loogie on JS portrait
 
If I remember the language correctly in the temple endownment---the covenant is not to reveal the token with the accompanying name and sign. Didn't see Tyler do that
 
What is the symbolism of Tyler drawing an "X" across his face---I saw it as the Church marking him as irrelevant---thoughts? 
 
 Tyler definitely spit on the JS portrait!
 
As far as the X, he's just taking Elder Ballard's recent advice*...
http://i.imgur.com/hqbCM8l.jpg 
 
I love this song and video.  There is so much you can take from it...whether it is stuff Tyler put in it purposely or just things people read into it based on their own epxeriences.
 
I've followed a few threads in other forums where people were all posting their reactions.
 
The X could be:
Church excommunicating him (LGBTQ in genenaral)
He's excommnicating himself from the church
Scarlett Letter
Reference to suicide (literally and metaphorically)
 
If you look at the title on the page by his knee after he lays down (aka: collapses in exhaustion among the swirling information during a faith crisis, dies?, etc.) it looks like it says "The Book of Enos" which is 1 chapter long in the book of mormon detailing Enos praying all night and day for his soul...and some of the lyrics Tyler is singing while in the elevator are "If you'd wanted me to stay, I'd repent my days away"
 
The most moving interpretation I saw was someone saying it appears he's referencing the suicides of LGBTQ+ members near the end as if he's saying "You don't want me? Ok, Whatever, see you in hell!" I noticed that if you watch carefully you notice he's flipping them off when he says "see you in Hell"
 
I could talk about this for a looooong time, LOL, I love this kind of stuff.  For others interested in this, check out the genius page for this song.  If you click on a highlighted line, annotations will pop up..if you want to add something you can register there.  Be sure to also click on the suggestions under the annotations, there is a lot of info in those as well. 
 
Here's a link:http://genius.com/Tyler-glenn-trash-lyrics 
 
Also, Tyler's mormon stories interview is fantastic and heart wrenching and provides a lot of context.
 
SG 
 
*Edit: Here's a link to Elder Ballard's recent talk where he advises girls to "put on a little lipstick now and then...it's that simple"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnpDlNtP81g 
 
Edit 2: I'm struggling with inserting an image  


   


Posted: 10 May 2016 10:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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Great stuff Silver Girl. I've got one to add to the list. I was listening to the Infants on Thrones podcast about this and someone mentioned that Tyler is wearing a robe which is very remeniscent of Satan in the temple movies. I haven't seen the new movies, but I would imagine it's similar to the old movies.
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Posted: 10 May 2016 11:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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I listened to this podcast over on Mormon Stories this morning: 635: Mormons Respond to Tyler Glenn's Controversial "Trash" Music Video.
 
In it they were talking about Tyler breaking his temple covenant by giving himself temple tokens in the elevator.
 
I do not see that this broke the covenant. If I recall the wording in the temple endowment, the covenant is: not to reveal the token with the "accomanying and sign". Tyler showed the token, yes, but I saw nowhere that the token was revealed with its accomanying name and sign.
 
Did I miss something or did I misinterpret the covenant all of these years?
 
The thing I really like about the video and the lyrics---I see myself through Tyler's eyes. My oppression has not been because of the LGBT issue. I do not want to compare my oppression with Tyler's or anyone elses. I cannot begin to undersand Tyler's frustrations, anguish, despair.
 
Oppression however is oppression, and anyone that has experienced the trauma of the ugly, biggited actions of people in the context of a major power imbalance find it easy to empathize with Tyler.
 
I hope more disaffected lds artists compose their thoughts and emotion into art and music.  
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Posted: 10 May 2016 12:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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Silver Girl
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Along the same line as "disrespect for the sacred temple" it reminds me of a comment from the mormon stories "mormons react" episode where someone mentioned how horrible it is that people are more worried about the sacredness of a sign/token than they are the sacredness of a person's life.
 
It really gave me pause.
 
Members who are aware of the video are complaining "you didn't need to go THERE" in reference to the spitting and the temple tokens in the video.  They should realize how disrespectful the church and they are being to other people's very lives.  People are suicidal...too many have gone through with it, yet some members are more outraged by spitting and a few hand movements??  It is really scary how people "loose themselves" in the church in more ways than one.  I think if people could step back and look at it from outside the church blinders, they would be horrified with themselves for thinking that way (as many of us were when we started waking up from the hold they church had on us.)
 
SG 


   


Posted: 13 May 2016 10:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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The Ground swell of opposition is starting to make a lot Mormons uncomfortable.  My DW commented "Why can't they just leave the church and Leave it alone!!"
 
My Response "They can't leave it alone because the Church was a major part of their life for so long.  Leaving it alone after a lifetime of living it is not easy."


   


Posted: 13 May 2016 10:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
Hank
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Fruit Fly:
The Ground swell of opposition is starting to make a lot Mormons uncomfortable.  My DW commented "Why can't they just leave the church and Leave it alone!!"
 
My Response "They can't leave it alone because the Church was a major part of their life for so long.  Leaving it alone after a lifetime of living it is not easy."
 
 For me it goes a little beyond that. When I discover a fraudster, I want everyone to know of the fraud and how to avoid/get out of it. The church is a fraud.


   


Posted: 13 May 2016 11:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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Fruit Fly:
The Ground swell of opposition is starting to make a lot Mormons uncomfortable.  My DW commented "Why can't they just leave the church and Leave it alone!!"
 
My Response "They can't leave it alone because the Church was a major part of their life for so long.  Leaving it alone after a lifetime of living it is not easy."
 
I wish the church would leave me alone! Love bombings, unsolicited invitations, getting to me through my family... Then we have Holland calling us patty cake taffy pullers... Yeah. Leave me the f#ck alone! 
 
Mmm.... Taffy....
 
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Posted: 13 May 2016 04:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
left2008
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  https://writeandwarble.wordpress.com/2016/05/14/tyler-glenn-and-trash-brave-new-territory/
 
 I wrote about Tyler's new song/video on my blog (link above). Anyways,  I was very moved by 'Trash'. I loved that it was unfiltered and raw. Not everyones cup of tea, but for me, that's what true artistry is. Bold and brave I say. My best to him on his journey.


   


            
 
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