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Paranoia is getting worse.
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offlineinspecterD
Paranoia is getting worse.
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Feb 9 14 8:02 AM
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I found this on another forum. It's the latest info on being on guard of those in the congregations that speculate or are critical. Looks like they are gunning for those still in for their families but no longer believe. Sad.
http://jwsurvey.org/cedars-blog/be-on-guard-against-those-who-speculate-watchtower-ramps-up-the-paranoia
status offlineKBG
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Feb 9 14 3:22 PM
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Thanks for sharing this. Sadly I and many feel the results of this crackdown. Hopefully it backfires and they loose more members than they would have kept otherwise.
status offlineRaine
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I had a whole post of my outrage. It has disappeared. I shall return to try again.
But summary. WBTS is a corporation of evil money grabbers.
I Ctrl+Alt+Deleted My Religious Programming
"It is better to live one day as a lion, than a hundred years as sheep"
I would consider myself foolish if I listened to someone who refused to listen to me.
status offlinehalf banana
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Feb 10 14 1:43 AM
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@Raine, I’m looking forward to your outrage when it returns.
@KBG, indeed let’s hope it does backfire, so many of us are suffering. The ”increase” decreases each year which is a very good trend. It means that fewer are joining each year.
Thanks for posting this Inspecter, I take this to be a response to the disgruntled flock who suspect that not all is well with the Watchtower beast.
For the GB to give these instructions, there must be grumbling in the ranks and complaints to the HQ--- and rightly so! They must be afraid of an impending rift.....the signs are there. Then on top of this, the dubbie is to be suspicious of his brothers and sisters.
As it says; a dose of paranoia.
Wakey wakey Jehovah’s Witnesses!
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
status offlineUkMike
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Feb 16 14 8:53 AM
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It just makes me want to shake my jw family members by the shoulders and yell? "HOW DO YOU NOT SEE WHAT THIS IS? IT ISNT EVIL TO THINK FOR YOURSELF YOU ABSOLUTE BRAINDEAD DRONE!" If their beliefs we're sound and valid they wouldnt need to fear other peoples opinions.
status offlinenevermind
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Feb 16 14 9:39 AM
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If you are not allowed to speculate on somebody's opinion it normally means there is something very wrong with it.
status offlinematitalica
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Feb 17 14 6:24 PM
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I've been hearing my mother complaining about some of the instructions handed down to elders. I never thought I'd hear her criticize the governing boobies.
I'd like to say a part of this is due to us apostates who regularly debate jw's on open forums.
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Matt- Darn, I'm so far behind....do some of you actually do debate with active JW"s on 'an open forum?" I thought the JW was never to even go on-line, writing anything to anyone that might oppose their belief ?
Oh, I did forget that sometimes it's how they count their time for reporting back to the WTBTS...while telling the rank and file to not do research because it might take them away from Jehovah.
As with fence-rider sister, she is just that for a reason....she goes so far with research and then, once again, she will join their ranks.
Things have been better lately but I'm thinking she will continue her flip-flop. And ya' know what? I'm getting to the point that I don't even care. She told me our Elder BIL is a "Spy" on this site...I think that comes more from her mental illness and paranoia. Should it be true, I don't care....I've told her that no one knows her by any other name then , fence-rider, and I'm tired of dealing with someone that plays the game of how special Jehovah and HIS
organization is.
I think we had a recent topic about personal boundaries...
Matt- I have maybe shared in the past mental illness - as regard my sister. One thing I've learned is that it helps me; the same reason we continue coming here. It's a win-win situation and we do find the humor at times with having different forums.
Now, I'm going to find the humor with my Billy Suggar...because he, as others understand the struggle we all confront, but he's funny as hell! While we all want offering words of encouragement, some people will continue staying within the confines of religion. And that's our struggle...escaping their mind-set.
Matt - take it one day at a time as it concerns your loved ones...but don't forget how they might use guilt for taking you backward - away from recovery. Love, LIN
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Oh wow. Just wow. How 'forward' of the beloved WBTS to warn their folks against ... well ... people like US!
When I was younger ... the things we were warned to keep away from ... was further education! D'oh!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineRaine
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Feb 21 14 11:48 PM
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I guess I got distracted and didn't come back as soon as I intended. But to say I'm still stewing over this is an understatement.
Being encouraged to be suspicious of each other and turning on one another. Is sickening but nothing really new. I think we all had things we would hide for fear of being turned in by a "concerned" brother or sister. There were even ones itching to dobb in their fellow to prove they are the more faithful ones. It's wrong. But it has always been there.
What really got my blood boiling. What made me sick to my stomach. And a feeling of actual hate come over me. Was this
For example, paragraph 15 tells of brothers in “one very poor country in Africa” who “mark off a small section of their garden and use the funds from the sale of the produce to support the Kingdom work.”
How greedy, how unsympathetic, how subhuman and dirty do you have to be to take actual money from these people. What sort of example is it to say. Look these people who don't have anything still give us money. VS Look at these people. They have nothing and we should be helping them. You know. like actual human beings who are suppose to help and care for the needy. These people are in need. They don't have basic plumbing let alone clean water. They don't have healthcare or any kind of regular meals. But you still take their money and use them to guilt others into also giving more.
They should be put in jail. Or should be made to live in actual poverty. Working the land themselves for every little scrap they can harvest just to stay alive that week. And then have that money taken from them. They should be made to see their children crying in hunger. The roof over their head falling apart or loosing what shelter they have.
Have bill collectors banging on their doors. their material possession taken from them. And be told they are expected to give more money.
They are the epitome of evil corporations in my book. they have no ethics. No empathy for the plight of their fellow human beings. I am utterly disgusted. I literally want to throw up. How can anyone look at them and call them Christian. How can anyone apply the word love to these selfish, money hungry, utterly evil, detestable people. These narcissistic sociopaths. ARGH!
I feel so sick that they have control of people. That they exist and that there is not a damn thing I can do about it.
Going to take a shower my skin is crawling.
I Ctrl+Alt+Deleted My Religious Programming
"It is better to live one day as a lion, than a hundred years as sheep"
I would consider myself foolish if I listened to someone who refused to listen to me.
status offlineGoingForth
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Feb 22 14 7:46 PM
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Raine:
How greedy, how unsympathetic, how subhuman and dirty do you have to be to take actual money from these people.
I see things have not changed a bit after so many years! I am reluctant to even listen to that video because I know I will be just as angry as yourself.
I recall being angry when I read in the Watchtower of a "good example" for everyone--a poor widow in Australia I believe it was--of giving ALL she had to the society. Then they went on and likened her to the widow in the Bible who also gave all she had. What they failed to see, read, or just ignored it-- the verses just before that one they picked out. Jesus actually was condemning the religious leaders of that time who "devour the houses of the widows and for a pretext make long prayers" and then he concludes by saying "These will receive a heavier judgment." That quote comes directly from their own NWT translation. [Luke 20:56,47] and just before the one they quoted.
Another time I got angry is when they were building a new Bethel in Canada but were not getting the money that they had hoped for. (Aren't they the ones who discourage education which will give people better jobs and more money--to give to them? Ha). Well anyway they used a similar tactic of intimidation. This time they picked on small children and of course widows too. Get this--what they said, "Bethel will be built with children's piggy banks and widow's pensions." I couldn't believe my ears!! Does not their own Bible say, "The form of worship that is clean and undefiled from the standpoint of our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation.." Certainly not to live of off them!! [James 1:27]
I hope the quoting of scripture has not annoyed anyone too much. I find the best way to knock them is by using their own method, by scripture, which they throw around so wantonly.
“The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen nor even touched—
They must be felt with the heart.”
Helen Keller
status offlineKBG
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Feb 22 14 7:56 PM
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GoingForth wrote:
...
I hope the quoting of scripture has not annoyed anyone too much. I find the best way to knock them is by using their own method, by scripture, which they throw around so wantonly.
I have to tell you, I frequently find the quoting of scriptures annoying, but not when you do it. smiley: roll
status offlineLocutus
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AndriaSyxx wrote:
Oh wow. Just wow. How 'forward' of the beloved WBTS to warn their folks against ... well ... people like US!
When I was younger ... the things we were warned to keep away from ... was further education! D'oh!My Sister,
We ARE the 'further education'.
T
Last Edited By: Locutus Feb 22 14 10:02 PM. Edited 2 times.
status offlineGoingForth
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Feb 23 14 5:49 PM
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Thanks KBG, I feel better now.
“The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen nor even touched—
They must be felt with the heart.”
Helen Keller
status offlineCee Cee
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Feb 23 14 6:24 PM
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Outstanding material. Thanks for posting the link.
As Cedars puts it:
"If the media is truly under Satan’s control, then Watchtower shouldn’t even be trying to use it."
Yet it does just that!
This issue orders every JW to look for "criticisms" by brothers or sisters, and avoid the pour souls who might have concerns with what they are seeing making sure to exclude them from any social activities.
Question: On a scale of 1 to 10, "How like Jesus' teachings "love your enemies" is this Watchtower advice?
That puts me in with the Apostle Paul, for like him I gave up the nonsensical and non-scriptural practices children must follow. With enough maturity I understood just how twisted the dogmas of religion are and wanted no part of the claims by any false profits. No wonder he had such respect for the "noble" Bereans who checked up on every word he said.
Can you think of any reason why JWs shouldn't we be doing that with everything the Watchtower says?
Cee Cee
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Feb 25 14 10:38 PM
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Locutus wrote:
AndriaSyxx wrote:
Oh wow. Just wow. How 'forward' of the beloved WBTS to warn their folks against ... well ... people like US!
When I was younger ... the things we were warned to keep away from ... was further education! D'oh!My Sister,
We ARE the 'further education'.
T
Halleeluujahhh Brother Tim ... why YES we ARE! smiley: wink
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Mar 5 14 9:09 PM
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Raine- great post!
I don't want taking anything away from others but it's good seeing you again...when I don't keep up with this site.
We have so many new members and hope we're not dealing with multiple persons posting under different names...but it makes for some interesting conversations.
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Rules, rules and more rules
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offlineFiguringitout20
Rules, rules and more rules
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Apr 1 14 11:27 PM
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I feel so FREE being out of the org. So many of their rules are ludicrous. Some I was thinking of:
Don't say "bless you" when someone sneezes. (Seriously, does anyone saying this really think they are preventing evil spirits from entering?)
Don't celebrate birthdays, only celebrate anniversaries (leave the single ones out).
Have funerals after a loved one is gone, but talk about the beliefs at the service, not the person. And if the memorial is held at a church don't attend at all, even for the closest of family members.
Don't make a toast. (In other words, never possibly honor anyone in anyway. Does it occur to them no one making a toast is ever doing so with the intention of calling on "false gods"?)
Don't join the YMCA (even if you do nothing religious there and they have the most economical classes around. And why pick on the YMCA? If you're going to ban that, why not also ban shopping at Mormon owned Albertsons?)
Don't practice karate (self defense is a bad thing. And guns are banned. Leave yourself completely unprotected. Ignore that martial arts teach desirable qualities - respect, patience, etc.)
Don't practice yoga and meditation (it lets evil spirits in!)
Given the choice of a respected elderly sister and a 15 year old baptized brother, the 15 year old would be given the aurhority to lead a group. Men/boys before wisdom and age. If for some reason the sister did take the lead, she would have to wear a head covering to show her submission.
No aspect of life is free from their rules! What are some rules that bug you the most, or are just plain silly?
Last Edited By: Figuringitout20 Apr 2 14 5:33 AM. Edited 1 time.
status offlineeewx2
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Apr 2 14 3:13 AM
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My dad didn't attend his own mother's funeral because it was at a church. I was still in, but I went anyway. Looking back, it was my first act of rebellion against them. I thought it was stupid to not go to my own grandmother's funeral. My brother didn't go either. Too bad it still took me almost three years to officially leave, but I was well on my way out at that point.
On topic- yes RULES. No rated R movies. No voting. No lottery tickets. No raffles. No swearing. These are just a few I can think of this early.
status offlinecangie
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Let's not forget no shopping at thrift stores, secondhand shops, yard sales or antique stores because everyone knows the "demons" from the homes of the people who used to own items bought in those places will come home with you. So why then has the Society bought old theaters and renovated them to make circuit assembly halls? And how is it that most of the buildings at Bethel have existed for many years in a very historic section of New York before they took them over? And why do JW's live in homes and apartments that were once owned/lived in by other people, and they love to buy second-hand cars...?
status offlineFiguringitout20
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eewx,so sad your dad didn't attend his mother's funeral. My parents didn't attend their grandparents funerals. Yes, no r rated movies, and actually no PG 13 either. It was explained in a distinct convention talk once that PG 13 was "purely garbage to the 13th power" and my parents took that to heart. No voting is a big one. JWs can take advantage of government services, but have absolutely no say on what is implemented, where and how much of their money goes into taxes, etc.
Cangie, my family shopped at thrift stores, except Salvation Army was taboo. One sister said she bought a shirt once that was possessed. But, like the story of the Smurf that walked out of a KH, I wondered if it actually happened.
status offlineMarked for life
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Apr 2 14 7:13 AM
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No beards. Whaaa?
But didn't everyone in the bible have a beard?
status offlineCacky
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Apr 2 14 7:23 AM
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I must have been on my way out when I attended my brother and sis-in-laws marriage in a Catholic church. They were already married, but she wanted to be married in the church and I went. I felt it was important to them, so felt I should be there. Yes, I was on my way out, though it took at least a decade more before I learned TTAT.
status offlineEileen
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Apr 2 14 7:51 AM
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"Bad association spoils useful habits" god I hated hearing this! I remember meetings when they would say a married man cannot think about another women but his wife or it would be adultery, the same would be for women, I remember thinking WOW I am in trouble. WTF How do you stop your mind when things pop in your head.
status offlinegaree
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Eileen wrote:
"Bad association spoils useful habits" god I hated hearing this! I remember meetings when they would say a married man cannot think about another women but his wife or it would be adultery, the same would be for women, I remember thinking WOW I am in trouble. WTF How do you stop your mind when things pop in your head.
I think it is more than just thinking that he wants to protect us from, but looking with a desire to have something that does not belong to us, even if only in the heart our imagnation, the source of our wickeness.
Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Because a person has commited in effect spirtual adultry in respect to Christ, our husband by lustfully thinking of creating adultry with another mans wife, confession of sin is needed to be confessed to the Spirit of Christ that dwells in the believer. Prayer and suplication in respect to His mercy I beleive would follow. This can be performed every time it pops up or as in when Christ taught about forgiveness...7 times 70, or every time the goodness of God works in a persons heart forgiving them of their sin.
Now days society encourages the lust of the eye, as the lust of the flesh an intimacy for two people and call it reality amusement. The females in this generation are paying the price because men do not humble themselves to seek God desire to love their wives as Christ loved the church, His bride.
Some rules are good.
status offlineGoingForth
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Apr 2 14 7:22 PM
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Eileen:
"I remember meetings when they would say a married man cannot think about another women"
With tongue-in-check--perhaps he was a paedophile and meant to "think of children" instead? The WTS seems to think that not only thinking but even doing is okay when children are involved.
Their rules are not based on the Bible but are made by the GB to keep everyone under their control.
At least the Biblical rules allow for forgiveness, compassion and even understanding--recognizing that we ALL fail many times. With the GB only the a$$ kissers are covered.
“The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen nor even touched—
They must be felt with the heart.”
Helen Keller
status offlineBilly Sugger
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Apr 3 14 12:19 AM
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I love music, but oooooo no you can't listen to heavy metal,it's demonised and has back masking in it to get into your subconcious and send you mad......beware of music that debases, anybody remember that talk at conventions??? After that my record collection took a hammering after Mum had been through it....even The Eagles went!!! What??? oh, witchy woman...a most henious track about seductive enchantresses in mental homes......never harmed me.
Also, that talk mentioned by name Ted Nugent!!! I bet he'd be horrified if he knew, and his track 'Cat Scratch Fever' at which point my mate and myself gave the clenched fist in recognition of a classic track.
You just have to listen to the kingdom songs......that are the most boring pieces of music ever written!!!
Hell, no. *Stomps off to put Black Sabbath on*
Well, I told the past to kiss my ass and turned and slammed the door.!!
Mike Estes 2012.
Free to be me.
Ian Gillan 1970
status offlineMarked for life
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Apr 3 14 6:19 AM
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I came home to all my punk records in the trash one day after school. It was after I DA'd myself and Mom was on a rampage. She told me I was "just like my father, the devil!" it really stuck with me for a long time and I totally hold it against her to this day.
I got those babies out of the trash and hid them in the closet. That was a big turning point for me as a son. I just couldn't give a shit.
status offlinegaree
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Marked for life wrote:
I came home to all my punk records in the trash one day after school. It was after I DA'd myself and Mom was on a rampage. She told me I was "just like my father, the devil!" it really stuck with me for a long time and I totally hold it against her to this day.
I got those babies out of the trash and hid them in the closet. That was a big turning point for me as a son. I just couldn't give a shit.
Music is one of those personal things. Nothing is evil of itself save the evil one.
status offlineFiguringitout20
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Apr 3 14 9:34 PM
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My parents threw out my music as a kid too. They tossed my Michael Jackson and Beastie Boys tapes. I got pretty good at hiding my music. If there was one lyric in one song that implied something even remotely impure (by extremely strict standards), then the entire album was deemed bad music. Some witnesses even got to the point of ruling out instrumental music with no lyrics if they had knowledge that the artist lived an immoral life.
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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garee wrote:
I think it is more than just thinking that he wants to protect us from, but looking with a desire to have something that does not belong to us, even if only in the heart our imagnation, the source of our wickeness.
Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Because a person has commited in effect spirtual adultry in respect to Christ, our husband by lustfully thinking of creating adultry with another mans wife, confession of sin is needed to be confessed to the Spirit of Christ that dwells in the believer. Prayer and suplication in respect to His mercy I beleive would follow. This can be performed every time it pops up or as in when Christ taught about forgiveness...7 times 70, or every time the goodness of God works in a persons heart forgiving them of their sin.
Now days society encourages the lust of the eye, as the lust of the flesh an intimacy for two people and call it reality amusement. The females in this generation are paying the price because men do not humble themselves to seek God desire to love their wives as Christ loved the church, His bride.
Some rules are good.
Seriously? I hope you're not going to be preaching your version of your religion in here mate. That won't go down well.
I don't mean to burst whatever little bubble you're currently living in .... but not everyone believes in religion or Jesus ... or Christ ... or a god or gods. One cannot be considered a sinner by others or consider oneself to be a sinner ... unless religion comes into the equation. Men conjured up the concepts of religious fear and guilt and sin. People are not born sinful nor are they born with an understanding of religious based guilt, fear and sin.
As a side note ... I distinctly remember agreeing to marry my husband but his name is Gavin not Christ.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineEileen
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"I remember meetings when they would say a married man cannot think about another women"
I agree some rules are good, but I was a child when I heard these "rules" and as most children take what is said literally. So I believe it was that easy to "Break the Rules" if all you have to do it think thoughts, and we believed god knew our thoughts. Sadly it was that easy to break the rules there were so many, no playing cards, no holidays, no celebrations of any kind, I still forget my birthday, don't have idols of any kind. When I was thirteen my parents made me ask permission to pierce my ears, Elder Wall told me no, it was demeaning, and it was none of the fuckers business. My first act of rebellion pierceing my ears, (week after he said no) after that breaking the "RULES" started to be a way of life, that and lying like an Academy Award winner for best actess under 16. Thumbs up!
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garee,
Do you believe everything your old book written by bronze aged farmers says, or do you use critical thinking?
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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I believe that road rules are good ... and handy so that car accidents are avoided. Religious rules are meant for religious people ...
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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AndriaSyxx wrote:
I believe that road rules are good ... and handy so that car accidents are avoided. Religious rules are meant for religious people ...
Maybe I am 'bad' but would rewrite that as 'religious rules are meant for delusional people...." No offense to your original text or you.
status offlineclunker1
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garee wrote:
Nothing is evil of itself save the evil one.
Whew.... well at least there's only one evil one. Imagine if there were TWO evil ones? They'd be having all these contests to see who was evil-er.
Or wait... THREE evil ones! Tell me I didn't just blow your mind.
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Rules, rules and more rules
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offlineFiguringitout20
Rules, rules and more rules
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Apr 1 14 11:27 PM
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I feel so FREE being out of the org. So many of their rules are ludicrous. Some I was thinking of:
Don't say "bless you" when someone sneezes. (Seriously, does anyone saying this really think they are preventing evil spirits from entering?)
Don't celebrate birthdays, only celebrate anniversaries (leave the single ones out).
Have funerals after a loved one is gone, but talk about the beliefs at the service, not the person. And if the memorial is held at a church don't attend at all, even for the closest of family members.
Don't make a toast. (In other words, never possibly honor anyone in anyway. Does it occur to them no one making a toast is ever doing so with the intention of calling on "false gods"?)
Don't join the YMCA (even if you do nothing religious there and they have the most economical classes around. And why pick on the YMCA? If you're going to ban that, why not also ban shopping at Mormon owned Albertsons?)
Don't practice karate (self defense is a bad thing. And guns are banned. Leave yourself completely unprotected. Ignore that martial arts teach desirable qualities - respect, patience, etc.)
Don't practice yoga and meditation (it lets evil spirits in!)
Given the choice of a respected elderly sister and a 15 year old baptized brother, the 15 year old would be given the aurhority to lead a group. Men/boys before wisdom and age. If for some reason the sister did take the lead, she would have to wear a head covering to show her submission.
No aspect of life is free from their rules! What are some rules that bug you the most, or are just plain silly?
Last Edited By: Figuringitout20 Apr 2 14 5:33 AM. Edited 1 time.
status offlineeewx2
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My dad didn't attend his own mother's funeral because it was at a church. I was still in, but I went anyway. Looking back, it was my first act of rebellion against them. I thought it was stupid to not go to my own grandmother's funeral. My brother didn't go either. Too bad it still took me almost three years to officially leave, but I was well on my way out at that point.
On topic- yes RULES. No rated R movies. No voting. No lottery tickets. No raffles. No swearing. These are just a few I can think of this early.
status offlinecangie
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Let's not forget no shopping at thrift stores, secondhand shops, yard sales or antique stores because everyone knows the "demons" from the homes of the people who used to own items bought in those places will come home with you. So why then has the Society bought old theaters and renovated them to make circuit assembly halls? And how is it that most of the buildings at Bethel have existed for many years in a very historic section of New York before they took them over? And why do JW's live in homes and apartments that were once owned/lived in by other people, and they love to buy second-hand cars...?
status offlineFiguringitout20
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eewx,so sad your dad didn't attend his mother's funeral. My parents didn't attend their grandparents funerals. Yes, no r rated movies, and actually no PG 13 either. It was explained in a distinct convention talk once that PG 13 was "purely garbage to the 13th power" and my parents took that to heart. No voting is a big one. JWs can take advantage of government services, but have absolutely no say on what is implemented, where and how much of their money goes into taxes, etc.
Cangie, my family shopped at thrift stores, except Salvation Army was taboo. One sister said she bought a shirt once that was possessed. But, like the story of the Smurf that walked out of a KH, I wondered if it actually happened.
status offlineMarked for life
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No beards. Whaaa?
But didn't everyone in the bible have a beard?
status offlineCacky
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I must have been on my way out when I attended my brother and sis-in-laws marriage in a Catholic church. They were already married, but she wanted to be married in the church and I went. I felt it was important to them, so felt I should be there. Yes, I was on my way out, though it took at least a decade more before I learned TTAT.
status offlineEileen
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"Bad association spoils useful habits" god I hated hearing this! I remember meetings when they would say a married man cannot think about another women but his wife or it would be adultery, the same would be for women, I remember thinking WOW I am in trouble. WTF How do you stop your mind when things pop in your head.
status offlinegaree
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Eileen wrote:
"Bad association spoils useful habits" god I hated hearing this! I remember meetings when they would say a married man cannot think about another women but his wife or it would be adultery, the same would be for women, I remember thinking WOW I am in trouble. WTF How do you stop your mind when things pop in your head.
I think it is more than just thinking that he wants to protect us from, but looking with a desire to have something that does not belong to us, even if only in the heart our imagnation, the source of our wickeness.
Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Because a person has commited in effect spirtual adultry in respect to Christ, our husband by lustfully thinking of creating adultry with another mans wife, confession of sin is needed to be confessed to the Spirit of Christ that dwells in the believer. Prayer and suplication in respect to His mercy I beleive would follow. This can be performed every time it pops up or as in when Christ taught about forgiveness...7 times 70, or every time the goodness of God works in a persons heart forgiving them of their sin.
Now days society encourages the lust of the eye, as the lust of the flesh an intimacy for two people and call it reality amusement. The females in this generation are paying the price because men do not humble themselves to seek God desire to love their wives as Christ loved the church, His bride.
Some rules are good.
status offlineGoingForth
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Eileen:
"I remember meetings when they would say a married man cannot think about another women"
With tongue-in-check--perhaps he was a paedophile and meant to "think of children" instead? The WTS seems to think that not only thinking but even doing is okay when children are involved.
Their rules are not based on the Bible but are made by the GB to keep everyone under their control.
At least the Biblical rules allow for forgiveness, compassion and even understanding--recognizing that we ALL fail many times. With the GB only the a$$ kissers are covered.
“The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen nor even touched—
They must be felt with the heart.”
Helen Keller
status offlineBilly Sugger
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I love music, but oooooo no you can't listen to heavy metal,it's demonised and has back masking in it to get into your subconcious and send you mad......beware of music that debases, anybody remember that talk at conventions??? After that my record collection took a hammering after Mum had been through it....even The Eagles went!!! What??? oh, witchy woman...a most henious track about seductive enchantresses in mental homes......never harmed me.
Also, that talk mentioned by name Ted Nugent!!! I bet he'd be horrified if he knew, and his track 'Cat Scratch Fever' at which point my mate and myself gave the clenched fist in recognition of a classic track.
You just have to listen to the kingdom songs......that are the most boring pieces of music ever written!!!
Hell, no. *Stomps off to put Black Sabbath on*
Well, I told the past to kiss my ass and turned and slammed the door.!!
Mike Estes 2012.
Free to be me.
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status offlineMarked for life
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I came home to all my punk records in the trash one day after school. It was after I DA'd myself and Mom was on a rampage. She told me I was "just like my father, the devil!" it really stuck with me for a long time and I totally hold it against her to this day.
I got those babies out of the trash and hid them in the closet. That was a big turning point for me as a son. I just couldn't give a shit.
status offlinegaree
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Marked for life wrote:
I came home to all my punk records in the trash one day after school. It was after I DA'd myself and Mom was on a rampage. She told me I was "just like my father, the devil!" it really stuck with me for a long time and I totally hold it against her to this day.
I got those babies out of the trash and hid them in the closet. That was a big turning point for me as a son. I just couldn't give a shit.
Music is one of those personal things. Nothing is evil of itself save the evil one.
status offlineFiguringitout20
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My parents threw out my music as a kid too. They tossed my Michael Jackson and Beastie Boys tapes. I got pretty good at hiding my music. If there was one lyric in one song that implied something even remotely impure (by extremely strict standards), then the entire album was deemed bad music. Some witnesses even got to the point of ruling out instrumental music with no lyrics if they had knowledge that the artist lived an immoral life.
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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garee wrote:
I think it is more than just thinking that he wants to protect us from, but looking with a desire to have something that does not belong to us, even if only in the heart our imagnation, the source of our wickeness.
Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Because a person has commited in effect spirtual adultry in respect to Christ, our husband by lustfully thinking of creating adultry with another mans wife, confession of sin is needed to be confessed to the Spirit of Christ that dwells in the believer. Prayer and suplication in respect to His mercy I beleive would follow. This can be performed every time it pops up or as in when Christ taught about forgiveness...7 times 70, or every time the goodness of God works in a persons heart forgiving them of their sin.
Now days society encourages the lust of the eye, as the lust of the flesh an intimacy for two people and call it reality amusement. The females in this generation are paying the price because men do not humble themselves to seek God desire to love their wives as Christ loved the church, His bride.
Some rules are good.
Seriously? I hope you're not going to be preaching your version of your religion in here mate. That won't go down well.
I don't mean to burst whatever little bubble you're currently living in .... but not everyone believes in religion or Jesus ... or Christ ... or a god or gods. One cannot be considered a sinner by others or consider oneself to be a sinner ... unless religion comes into the equation. Men conjured up the concepts of religious fear and guilt and sin. People are not born sinful nor are they born with an understanding of religious based guilt, fear and sin.
As a side note ... I distinctly remember agreeing to marry my husband but his name is Gavin not Christ.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineEileen
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"I remember meetings when they would say a married man cannot think about another women"
I agree some rules are good, but I was a child when I heard these "rules" and as most children take what is said literally. So I believe it was that easy to "Break the Rules" if all you have to do it think thoughts, and we believed god knew our thoughts. Sadly it was that easy to break the rules there were so many, no playing cards, no holidays, no celebrations of any kind, I still forget my birthday, don't have idols of any kind. When I was thirteen my parents made me ask permission to pierce my ears, Elder Wall told me no, it was demeaning, and it was none of the fuckers business. My first act of rebellion pierceing my ears, (week after he said no) after that breaking the "RULES" started to be a way of life, that and lying like an Academy Award winner for best actess under 16. Thumbs up!
status offlineVancity
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garee,
Do you believe everything your old book written by bronze aged farmers says, or do you use critical thinking?
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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I believe that road rules are good ... and handy so that car accidents are avoided. Religious rules are meant for religious people ...
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlinedivertido
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AndriaSyxx wrote:
I believe that road rules are good ... and handy so that car accidents are avoided. Religious rules are meant for religious people ...
Maybe I am 'bad' but would rewrite that as 'religious rules are meant for delusional people...." No offense to your original text or you.
status offlineclunker1
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garee wrote:
Nothing is evil of itself save the evil one.
Whew.... well at least there's only one evil one. Imagine if there were TWO evil ones? They'd be having all these contests to see who was evil-er.
Or wait... THREE evil ones! Tell me I didn't just blow your mind.
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GB Instructs Congregations To Essentially Begin Tithing
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offlineSwingLifeAway
GB Instructs Congregations To Essentially Begin Tithing
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Very interesting article from John Cedars on JWSurvey. The financial desperation of the WTBTS continues.
Governing Body instructs congregations to pledge fixed monthly donations
A leaked letter dated March 29, 2014, has been circulated to all elders advising of a huge shake-up in financing arrangements for kingdom hall and assembly hall construction.
The letter is four pages long, but only the first page is to be read out to publishers. The three-page postscript, containing further details of how the new arrangement is to be implemented, includes the sentence (in bold): “This postscript should not be read to the congregation, and this letter should not be posted on the information board.”
The first page is due to be read out at congregation service meetings for the week of May 5, 2014.
“Having sufficient, adequate places of worship is vital, as Jehovah continues to ‘speed up’ the gathering of ‘a mighty nation,’” it reads. “In order to meet these ever increasing needs, the Governing Body has directed that an adjustment be made in the way Kingdom Hall and Assembly Hall construction projects are financed.”
What is this adjustment? “In harmony with 2 Corinthians 8:12-14, congregations will now be asked to pool their resources worldwide to support the construction of theocratic facilities wherever they are needed.”
What will this “pooling” of resources involve? “…all congregations will have the opportunity to support Kingdom Hall and Assembly Hall construction work worldwide by resolving to make a monthly donation from congregation funds.”
Once the letter has been read, congregations will have just four weeks (with a final deadline of May 31) to agree on a monthly figure to be sent to Watchtower, ostensibly for the construction of kingdom halls and assembly halls worldwide.
Figures that don’t add up
“The need for Kingdom Halls and Assembly Halls is greater than ever before,” the letter insists. “At this time, over 13,000 Kingdom Hall projects and 35 Assembly Hall projects are needed worldwide.”
After listening to the above statement, publishers would be forgiven for assuming that more than 13,000 new Kingdom Halls are needed each year to keep pace with publisher growth.
However, when you compare the number of congregations in 2013 (113,823) with the number of congregations the year before (111,719), you note that there has been an increase of only 2,104 congregations worldwide – some of which will be sharing existing kingdom hall infrastructure. The 13,000 figure is therefore either a gross exaggeration, or kingdom halls are being refurbished and rebuilt at an astonishing rate – faster than is actually required.
Never-ending loan repayments
According to the leaked letter, “Congregation and Assembly Halls will no longer be asked to repay a loan.” However, in the elders-only part of the letter, congregations are instructed that their new monthly pledge must be “at least the same amount as the current monthly loan repayment” for congregations repaying loans for building work.
In other words, if your congregation is paying off a kingdom hall build or refurbishment, your loan repayments must effectively continue indefinitely.
If a congregation isn’t already making loan repayments, then a confidential survey is to be taken by passing out slips of paper to determine how much local brothers are willing to pledge.
Room for maneuver
Congregation elders will have at least some flexibility to alter the congregation’s monthly pledge in the future according to circumstances, but this works both ways.
“Elders should review this resolution annually in May to ensure the amount is what the congregation is realistically able to donate on a monthly basis. For example, there may be a significant increase or decrease in the number of publishers in the congregation, or the local economic conditions may appreciably improve or deteriorate, thus affecting the amount that the congregation can reasonably contribute. If necessary, the elders may take a new financial survey, as described above, to determine whether the resolved monthly contribution to Kingdom Hall and Assembly Hall construction worldwide should be adjusted for the coming year.” – March 29, 2014 BOE letter, page 2
The monthly pledge can thus be adjusted downwards or upwards at the elders’ discretion on an annual basis.
But who actually owns a kingdom hall, and thus bears responsibility for paying for it?
Who owns a kingdom hall?
Most congregations now have arrangements in place where kingdom halls are under the legal ownership of a board of trustees made up of local elders. But this doesn’t give elders the freedom to do what they want, even if they are all in agreement. Watchtower ultimately holds all the aces.
You see, elders can only BE elders if they are approved by Watchtower. Elders who are removed by Watchtower are automatically no longer trustees, and will have no say in how their kingdom hall is run.
This state of affairs was recently highlighted by , in which an entire body of elders in California was removed by the organization for failing to comply with the circuit overseer’s insistence that their kingdom hall be refurbished, even though a refurbishment wasn’t deemed necessary.
A lengthy legal battle ensued in which some of the ousted elders argued for their reappointment, but they proved to be ill-prepared. They assumed they were victims of one or two rogue individuals in the organization, and thus failed to grasp that the problems they were trying to address were systemic.
Their true foe was Watchtower itself.
Perhaps the most poignant moment from the Menlo Park case came when Watchtower’s legal representative, Calvin Rouse, made the following declaration in court…
“Ordinarily I wouldn’t be here, but this is one of our 13,000 congregations in the United States. We are a hierarchical religion structured just like the Catholic Church. And when the order from the Pope comes down in the church defrocking a priest and kicking him out, he no longer has any say in any matter in the local parish priest – in the parish. The same situation as here. In his complaint he brings one claim. He claims that he wants to be reinstated as a director and an officer in the Menlo Park Congregation. This is contrary to our church rules and regulations and bylaws. We brought our organizational bylaws book, our rule book here, and we are prepared to present witnesses that this is a hierarchical organization.”
Hence the organization, which is , has an over-riding controlling interest respecting kingdom hall buildings, but congregation members are still expected to pick up the tab.
No more “surplus funds”
The final undermining of any vestiges of financial autonomy at congregation level is accomplished on page 4 of this new letter, where a section headed “Surplus funds” effectively ends any possibility of the existence of wealthy, self-reliant congregations.
Congregations are thus to financially surrender themselves to the organization. There is no longer any excuse for the amassing of funds for a rainy day. Only “minor renovations or repairs” are to be cared for locally. If there are surplus funds, elders must discuss sending these to Watchtower.
Such reliance on ‘big brother’ may seem refreshing in the eyes of many Witnesses, but it has its risks. If Watchtower is ever declared bankrupt, individual congregations will be on their own, and without any nest egg to fall back on when their kingdom halls start to deteriorate.
An “opportunity” taken under compulsion?
The idea that congregations should become perpetually indebted to Watchtower in this manner by means of a monthly pledge, which they are being ordered to agree to within a four-week window, is a strange one – at least by bible standards.
According to the bible, Jesus Christ encouraged the forgiving of debts (Matt. 6:12; 18:23-35), and the Apostle Paul counseled that Christians should not have to give “under compulsion.” – 2 Cor 9:7
For the Governing Body to be so forthright in pursuing congregations for funding under whatever pretext will be curious to some, especially after it has been revealed that the organization is set to pocket a staggering in proceeds from the sale of its Brooklyn property.
But when you consider Watchtower’s apparent financial woes as evidenced by the unprecedented , not to mention the increasing threat posed by lawsuits, the Governing Body’s assault on congregation coffers for extra cash is all too predictable.
Source: http://jwsurvey.org/cedars-blog/governing-body-instructs-congregations-to-pledge-fixed-monthly-donations (full text of letter included on website)
Interesting times indeed for the WTBTS.
-Dave
“When I was 5 years old, my mother always told me that happiness was the key to life. When I went to school, they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. I wrote down ‘happy.' They told me I didn’t understand the assignment, and I told them they didn’t understand life.”
- John Lennon
Last Edited By: SwingLifeAway Apr 8 14 6:29 AM. Edited 2 times.
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Yes, I have read this. And when I came in, one of the things the lady studying with me harped on was how Russel had said that if they ever had to ask for donations, they would fold because God would provide so they wouldn't have to ask.
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Not "having" to (give) donate money. Was something that my father was always quick to point out as the thing that made them stand out from "Christendom".
It was/is a deep point of pride for him.
When I was a child. He brought a study along to the KH and the guy asked about how much he would be expected to give. And dad said "Oh no, we only want to share very important truths with you. We don't want your money." When the guy pointed out the donations box. And my father explained that is only there if a person is moved to want to contribute to the up keep of the KH and ministry work. There is no requirement or expectation put on anyone for money.
I feel a little sad for my father. Then again. He is in really deep and it wouldn't surprise me if he didn't see this for what is actually is.
I Ctrl+Alt+Deleted My Religious Programming
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So, the long drawn out process of changing from a upstart new religion poking fun at the Catholic church, into taking on the practises of the Catholic church begins.
The Catholic Church has survived by charging Tithes, controlling property. The Watchtower now finds itself taking on proven methods of survival which it used to mock!
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I remember my Dad too being proud of the fact that money wasn't really an all encompassing thing in the WTBTS. How times have changed. All that is left is to pass the collection plate at the meetings.
I was surprised at the outcome of the Menlo Park fiasco simply because I was also thinking it was a local thing. Funny I should have realized that it is a larger problem and started at the top. I certainly hope that this wakes some up. My son, the elder, hopefully will be reading the pages of this letter that is not commonly to be shared with the rank and file. He isn't stupid so perhaps he can see where this is heading.
As for if the WTBTS goes bankrupt and the local congregations not having a rainy day fund...I thought that the WTBTS now owned all of the Kingdom Halls outright? If that is true then if they WTBTS goes belly up then the halls will be on the auction block. I know that the oldest hall in my home town has struggled to remain out of debt and had a very large rainy day fund due to an inheritance from a former member. I can't see where this will go over very well there. Unless I am reading it wrong it appears that the WTBTS wants the congregations to be the cash cows to finance future building world wide. The increase is in undeveloped countries so of course to have money for increase will have to come from those more wealthy. I just don't see that this is going to be a welcome process. The congregation's I have been in have always contributed when asked and were never stingy with their monies. I just feel that this heavy handedness is sure to cause some fall out. Perhaps this is the end of the WTBTS...we can only hope.
Funny when I mentioned that the Borg was selling out now cause they needed the money one of my sons (who is out) commented that they are expanding so of course they need the money. I really don't think that is the case. It really sounds like they are bleeding money as well as adherents.
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This is tithing!
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They already pissed away all that money from the Brooklyn Heights real estate deals?
Doing what?
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Thanks for posting this SLA. It's interesting to observe the evolution of the money-hungry Watchtower. The only way to keep the money coming in is by total control of their followers lives by perpetual propaganda in favour of their own delusional role.
I find an interesting paradox in the self-promotion of the Watchtower Society from having ‘congregational’ status to being hierarchical in structure. In other words, since 1986(ish) they have been organised from the top down and not locally at the KH level. This was done to exercise absolute control over the congregation elders and simultaneously to take over the ownership of all the Kingdom halls which were formerly owned by the congregations. Their relationship to the rank and file is now just as in the RC Church which was once held by the Watchtower to be the focus of all evil who they vilified in word, print and broadcasting and who were dismissed pejoratively as ‘organised religion’.
I wonder if today’s Jdubs are aware of this volte-face? The bogus Judge Ratherflawed would rotate in his grave if he knew that the WTBTS had become part of ‘organised religion’.
Anyway the paradox is that in their eagerness to take absolute control, both financially and politically within the organisation, they have inadvertently become responsible for all the misdemeanours of its membership.
Under the old structure it seems that an individual deviant would have been charged for his own criminal wrongs or perhaps at worst, the congregation. Now however as a large, rich, international organisation, the Watchtower can be made to pay millions to cover breaches of anti-social behaviour by the membership and doing so in the glare of bad publicity.
It would be a beautiful irony if the Watchtower fell because of their greed for property gain and absolute control; by being sued for $millions by former abused members.
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
Last Edited By: half banana Apr 13 14 7:28 AM. Edited 1 times.
status offlineJoe Magarac
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The Watchtower has been essentially a hierarchy long before whatever happened in 1986.
Certainly it was back in the 1970s (which I know from direct observation), which period contains at least one major shake-up.
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Joe, yes they have always had a hierarchy but they used to be organised with responsibility at congregation level. Now they admit to having a clergy/laity distinction i.e. a hierarchical structure with the GB controlling all members and not with independent locally governed and owned KH’s as it was up to the 1980's.
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
status offlineJoe Magarac
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Whoa. They actually use the word "clergy" now?
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Their website still indicates that they don't have a clergy/leity distinction. So, no they don't use that term to describe themselves. But the way they have set up the governing body, it's just like one without actually using the term.
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Half - Judge Ratherflawed
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Yeah as I've said on other threads they very much appear to be bleeding money. These are last gasp fail safes. They're really pulling out all stops but as this pattern continues eventually they will tap out of funds.
It seems from the last few years that this could be happening rapidly. I really don't think they'd shake things up financially so significantly unless there were big problems afoot. Their membership thrives on familiarity and routine.
-Dave
“When I was 5 years old, my mother always told me that happiness was the key to life. When I went to school, they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. I wrote down ‘happy.' They told me I didn’t understand the assignment, and I told them they didn’t understand life.”
- John Lennon
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I too remember the diatribe against other religions and their tithing and setting up scheduled donations and how this made the borg different and more the 'truth'..... How proud my father and family was that 'we' didn't need to coerce money from members, ha
Branch closings, reduction in district overseers, sale of the Brooklyn properties. Where has the money gone? Anyone remember the Jerry McGuire quote?
Last Edited By: divertido Apr 14 14 5:07 PM. Edited 1 times.
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So the teaching is that Babylon the Great is organized religon and would be attacked by the Government and shut down, right? Wouldn't it be something if the WBTS fell because of finacial ruin before anything of that nature could ever happen? I'd love to here the Borg explain their way out of that one!
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What's the difference between this and the money changers that Jesus rebuked in the temple?
Marked - I think that's what will happen. As that's happening I foresee them justifying their closing by saying they misunderstood the prophecy. It was really money, capitalism, and Western culture that Satan is using to take down religion. They will claim the concentration of wealth in the .01% is another sign of the times. Poor little them could not keep up. Satan's tools of the 21st century - the oligarchs. I could almost believe it.
Then they'll say that by ruining the Witnesses God's "eyeball has been touched" and they can be sure Armageddon will arrive shortly. After that they'll never hear from the society again and go on living in a perpetual state of expectation/fear.
-Dave
“When I was 5 years old, my mother always told me that happiness was the key to life. When I went to school, they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. I wrote down ‘happy.' They told me I didn’t understand the assignment, and I told them they didn’t understand life.”
- John Lennon
Last Edited By: SwingLifeAway Apr 15 14 4:48 AM. Edited 1 times.
status offlineJoe Magarac
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The money changers were independent businesses, not the religious institution itself.
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Leaked Instructional Videos On Disfellowshipping and Sheperding A Suicidal Person
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Leaked Instructional Videos On Disfellowshipping and Sheperding A Suicidal Person
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As the title says. Cedars has been busy. Watch these quick before Watchtower get them removed
http://jwsurvey.org/cedars-blog/doubts-over-organizational-solidarity-as-disturbing-video-on-handling-suicide-is-leaked
"The highs never match the lows......" - Ronan O'Gara (ex Munster rugby and Ireland player. Racing Metro coach)
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and the first funny version:
"The highs never match the lows......" - Ronan O'Gara (ex Munster rugby and Ireland player. Racing Metro coach)
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Those vids were scripted but showed the sanctimonious attitudes of the elders exactly as they are. I must admit, I couldn't watch them through to the end. I did watch the next vid about a 3 year old giving a talk based on the hanging of Mordecai and all the talk of raping the queen and slaughtering people ............. perfect subject matter for a 3 year old to be reading aloud. Disgusting.
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
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The videos are meant to be instructional and so are scripted to the eyeballs but there is so much wrong with them.
At least JW's now know to cry a bit and say I failed Jehovah and they should be in the clear and not get DF'd.
As for the suicide video! Ok 1st scenario in it is the wrong one but seriously who on leaving an upset, suicidal female in a room asks "will I turn the light out"?
It's so cold and mechanical.
"The highs never match the lows......" - Ronan O'Gara (ex Munster rugby and Ireland player. Racing Metro coach)
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whytebyrd2 wrote:
Those vids were scripted but showed the sanctimonious attitudes of the elders exactly as they are. I must admit, I couldn't watch them through to the end....
WB, Me to, its like watching reality TV, but nobody is hot.
Shane, Tho painful, still good to know how the society is progressing, err, eehhh, maneuvering.
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I agree Shane, there IS so much wrong with them. Maybe they should be shown to mental health professionals to help them understand why their JW clients are such a mess. The suicide one should be shown to suicide prevention people. The JW's are disconnected from reality as is painfully shown in the vid of the 3 year old. In the comments all there is is praise and adulation but no one asks WHY a 3 year old was given that subject matter???? Well.........it was asked..........but deleted from comments. Zombies all of them!
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
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Yep. Agreed Sharon.
Someone made the point that it was interesting that suicide was used as the subject matter for one of the videos. Could be a lot with suicidal thoughts/tendencies in the organisation. Certainly mental health issues were rife from what I saw when I was a JW.
Yes the video of the little 3 year old is just plain wrong. Between the school overseer and the child's parents couldn't one of them at least not see this was material not suited to children? What actually goes on in their brains?
"The highs never match the lows......" - Ronan O'Gara (ex Munster rugby and Ireland player. Racing Metro coach)
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I started to watch the first video last night but found i couldn't watch the video through to the end (the funny version was much more watchable for me). At this point couldn't watch the other videos as i get horrid feelings due to seeing stuff like this related to JW's in suits and Kingdom halls... too many memories. It's also creepy seeing the level of mind control they are under and knowing i was exactly like that at one time.
As for sheparding a suicidal person..
"Elders are not to give out numbers for suicide hotlines or encourage proffessional help. Instead they are to give bible based lectures, urge the uttering of incantations and hand out homework assignments."
Words fail me.
It's not hard to see why the JW org would not welcome 'help' from proffessionals but it's go nothing to do with the safety and mental well being of the ill human. It has everything to do with protecting their money making scam and mind control mechanisims.
Thanks for highlighting these things, irishsane.
Edit: It makes me wonder how my brother (an elder in a congregation) ,having felt suicidal himself, feels about such 'loving guidance' from the GB...?
'Do a barrel roll!' - Peppy Hare, Lylat Wars - N64
'Andross wont have his way with me!' - Fox McCloud, Lylat Wars - N64
Last Edited By: Gurgi Feb 14 14 10:21 AM. Edited 1 times.
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Gurgi, there simply are no words. I read Cedar's article and that was all I could manage. I don't want to put their filth in my mind anymore. There are just no words for how reprehensible the GB is for implementing the use of these videos within a "Christian" congregation.
“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.” ― Marcus Aurelius
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I am studying to become a LMFT (Licensed Marriage Family Therapist)...I watched the videos and have so much to say, but don't quite know where to start. I guess when I open my practice, I'll know where to find a plethora of clients...I've heard the cult strongly discourages its members from seeking outside help, is that true or does it depend congregation to congregation?
status offlineLocutus
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lovefool,
Yes, it is true. Speaking frankly with 'worldly people' is not possible, for those who have strong JW faith. Seeking professional help outside the organization means admitting to oneself that not all answers can be provided by God's own chosen representatives. . This is an uncomfortable, dissonant position, and many believers will avoid at all costs.
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It does just make one speechless. There is so much wrong with these things that I wouldn't know where to start!
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"She invited me to see her aquarium in her apartment. I wonder how many times she's used that line"
Ohhhhhhhhhh myyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy! What a crock of the proverbial! The acting is dangerously NOT good enough for an Oscar .... it's badly scripted ... acted ... and the content is so sanctimonious and holier-than-thou. Just wow. I'm rather glad I have a 'treacherous heart'.
The saddest part of the first 'movie' ... is that the average jdub WILL believe and trust in what the elders have to say. I notice they didn't ask the highly personal intimate questions as some are renowned for. Poor 'Robbie' is quite clearly terrified that he will lose his family because of his sinful actions. It's badly scripted, acted and presented ... but it's something that happens to young ones all the time.
A good find there Shane ...........................................
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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videos taken down now but if you have dropbox then PM me for a link.
"The highs never match the lows......" - Ronan O'Gara (ex Munster rugby and Ireland player. Racing Metro coach)
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Why Jehovah hates MAGIC
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offlinebiblecheck
Why Jehovah hates MAGIC
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A review of the "Become Jehovah's Friend" DVD, starring Sparlock
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status offlineHugoVonStype.paleoplanet69529
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Looking at Caleb's guilt trip re Sparlock, I can only wonder about how bad he's going to feel when he hits puberty and starts tugging himself off left, right and centre :) LOL
Last Edited By: HugoVonStype Apr 18 14 3:05 AM. Edited 1 times.
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What doesn't Jehovah hate?
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I was happy to see that Sparlock is still up on Youtube in it's entire full version; with "feel free to mirror" notices attached !
Hey Governing Body, you know what, the internet is like a big huge puddle of water; you can trample it all you like, it just comes back together,
you can't stump it into oblivion, you can only tire yourself!
I want to end my seasons like I started them ...free! ~~ Uncle Andy - 98yrs old 2012 ~~
What I believe now is that the WBT$ must be stopped! They have ruined lives and been responsible for the deaths of too many innocent people in the name of delusion._ PUNKOFNICE 2012
As to the existence of a "creator" I say we are all agnostics as a matter of epistemology, Whether you are an atheist, or the Pope. Some people claim to know, and that is fine for them. But why should I believe that they saw what they claim, or that they believe what they say they saw? I saw nothing and they have shown me nothing _ SE7EN 2012
Because Jehovah's Witnesses believe as little in psychology as they do in philosophy, it tames or numbs the wilderness of the heart by closing valves of inquiry." _Barbara Grizzuti Harrison.
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And I thought "Listening to the Great Teacher" was manipulative.
The training wheels are off on the GB bike.
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status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Yay ... a YouTube expose in Aussie! Thanks for adding this BC ... it will keep the Sparlock freedom campaign alive and well.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Hi there Bcheck, thanks for supplying this. Good grief! It is appalling.........how desperately sad to openly indoctrinate children so. A prohibition on anything imaginative will only make children realise the harshness and error of the cult sooner rather than later.
But how it works--- being deprived of Jehovah’s friendship! Who in their right mind would want to be friends with Jehovah, a pre-historic, genocidal maniac god who hates and kills anyone who thinks differently to him?
Wake up people! ............no one should want this disgusting aberration of the human mind TO BE OUR FRIEND.
If you value living in peace and sanity, stay far, far away from people who promise vengeance and hate ...................
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Yeah, I never got why I would want to be Jehovah's friend when he's such an elitist bully. Yuck!
Also, it's been my theory that the WT opposes the occult and anything that falls in the realm of magic/fantasy because it depicts women (like Anne Bishop's Black Jewels Trilogy) and children (Harry Potter) in positions of power, which is a no-no in their eyes.
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Is the WT going to change the teaching of Jesus mediatorship?
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offlinenonjwspouse
Is the WT going to change the teaching of Jesus mediatorship?
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My husband went to the memorial and took short little notes on a notebook.
One thing stuck out. He jotted "Jesus as our mediator" now. This surprised me. Especially since it was central to one of the hottest points of our disagreements these past few years.
It almost sounded as if the speaker was changing the mediatorship, though I am sure it is not written anywhere like that. I have heard others on another forum say the ending of their prayer was said the same way. I am super curious as to how my husband will take this?
I wonder of the WT is gearing up to make the mediatorship of Jesus to apply to all christians (only jw's of course) This would cause many to re-energize wouldn't it? I realize most of the R&F actually believe this anyway, but it is not official WT teaching. Surely the WT/GB is trying to find ways to reengergize this crowd of mostly undereducated, tired, unmotivated people. I wonder if this is it? have any of you ever heard a prayer end like that before this memorial?
status offlineFiguringitout20
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I'm not sure if I'm entirely clear on what you're saying, but growing up most JW prayers ended with something like ..in the name of Jesus Christ our mediator and ransom provider...". So saying Jesus is a mediator is not new, but again maybe I'm missing your point.
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I think Figuringitout20, that non is referring to the comment in one of the magazines a few months (years) ago that Christ is the mediator for the anointed but not the great crowd. That was another sticking point for me as well. But in true JW style the GB is letting things get a little muddied so as to keep those on the fence in. I know that most of the rank and file haven't really made this a talking point in their life mainly because they are so busy doing...stuff...that they don't have time to really understand what they have been told. They just believe cause it is easier than really do any thinking on the subject.
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Oh, I see. I was unaware that they came out with Jesus only being the mediator for the anointed. Interesting! So sad that every person in the org has to take every single word in the JW literature as absolute non - questionable truth even as those "truths" keep shifting.
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Thanks inspector. Figuring, it's been in print more than once I believe that Jesus is not the mediator for those non anointed JW, and I thought they might be recently saying it was only the GB that is the mediator for those non anointed JWs. However, I was unaware the ending of the prayers routinely ended with not just "through Jesus", but to also mention "Jesus our mediator". I thought the mediator part was new, therefore gearing up for a change in the WT, since my research shows me the WT changes doctrine after many years of just not bringing a certain thing up for years. I think the reason he jotted it down was to claim it was for the R&F.
I found it amazing my "born in" husband believed Jesus was, until I asked him to bring it up with his book study. It's no wonder they all looked at each other for a minute first, the study couple and the overseer, before they answered. This was not supposed to be recognized, and they were not going to teach it to him were they?
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Sounds like they probably had stopped ending prayers like that then. My recollection is from 20-30 years ago. So, if Jesus is not the mediator for the great crowd, then the anointed are the mediator between the great crowd and Jesus and God? Hmmmm.... Men lording themselves over others. I hope your husband finds his freedom from the cult.
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Need for a Mediator between us and Jehovah, hmm?? Doesn't that doctrine in itself paint Jehovah as less than all powerful, all knowing, just and loviing? He is the temperamental father who doesn't really care about his lesser children all that much, but, he has his favorite, Jesus. If we get on big-bro Jesus's good side, Jesus can talk Dad out of killing us. Its a very abusive household we are living in.
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When you put it that way KBG:
"If we get on big-bro Jesus's side, Jesus can talk Dad out of killing us..."
Queue up The Godfather theme song! Yes, a very abusive family indeed.
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
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Found a chart I've never seen before. :)
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offlineinspecterD
Found a chart I've never seen before. :)
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https://scontent-b-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/t1/q71/s720x720/1797372_10203058798460302_354969680_n.jpg
Sorry I still haven't got the hang of inserting pic't here. Just copy and paste it. It is a chart count down from 1913 to 1914 and it is complete with a quote from a Seventh Day Adventist Hymnal!! A friend sent it to me so I really don't know where he found it. smiley: roll
status offlineKBG
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The end is at hand, repent, repent. One hundred years later, those generations really need to overlapse
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It's Wonderful find!
Perfect for JW/Bible Students back then, who, relying on their faithful and discreet slave Pastor Russell, "knew" the end was coming in the autumn of 1914 and this chart conveniently ends on September 31, 1914. Fascinating.
Cee Cee
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Overcrapping generations
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offlinehalf banana
Overcrapping generations
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(This might be the sequence of thoughts from one of the governing body who still has a modicum of reasoning left before his mind actually fossilises)
Ok, you run this cult with 7 million members. Your predictions never come true but you have a zombie-like army of followers, brain-dead... but loyal! So what do you tell them? Let’s think for a moment and remember how it got started.
The JW religion is all based on a mistake.
The reason for your cult is due to you thinking YOU know the exact day and hour when Christ will return in glory and zap the ungodly (those who don’t believe your creed). Your angle on the coming of Christ is that he did arrive after all in 1874 as promised by the Adventists, just happens that he must have arrived invisibly! (pull the other leg). That meant that within a Biblical forty year period, from 1874 i.e. by 1914 at the outside, the process of making heaven on Earth would be complete. So you print a magazine to publicise your new religious hype. Since there’s a sucker born every minute and religious sentiment is a respectable habit; people buy your magazine.
Then a big, big problem: the very reason for starting your magazine was proved false; 1914 came and still no cleansed Earth, just the start of an appalling war.
No matter! Since the magazine has been rolling off the press for thirty five years now it has built up quite a following with a charismatic preacher at the helm; Pastor Russell. People want the hype and the hope... so keep the presses rolling and the money coming in! Russell died knowing he got it all wrong and the reins of power were greedily snatched by JF Rutherford (Judge Ratherflawed). From its inception with Russell, the pattern of fudging the dates upon prediction failure was systemic and had become the prime characteristic of the Watchtower behaviour. Great things were expected in 1915, then 1918 1921, 1925. Then about 1927 the 1874 Watchtower date of Christ’s arrival was conveniently transferred forward to 1914. AS IF BY PUTTING SOMETHING INTO PRINT MAKES IT A HOLY TRUTH! The early Christian spiel; “the kingdom of God is at hand” (which was a complete failure in the first century) was the Watchtower rallying cry. It no longer applies...
End of private thoughts of governing body member.
So it’s a long wretched history of fudging dates and deceiving people and getting them to part with their hard earned cash. Their assumption that the generation which saw 1914 being the one to see “the end of the system of things” as one would expect, has also proved exquisitely WRONG. Millions were mislead by the cult and harmed by its false promises. It was and still remains a past master at pulling wool over people’s eyes.
So how did it cover its embarrassment at the “1914 generation” prediction disaster? It came up with pompous words of certainty used so many times in its history: “It is evident,” “ we are led to the inevitable conclusion” that the scripture means such and such. As Humpty Dumpty said to Alice “in a rather scornful tone,”When I use a word it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less””. (Oddly he was discussing the meaning of the word ‘glory’ vs ‘knock down argument’ to Alice and in the year 1872 when Russell was also thinking about it.) It certainly is not evident that Jesus’ word ‘generation’ could ever mean “overlapping generation”. To proclaim thus is pure fantasy and an unsuccessful attempt to weasel out of yet another routine prediction failure.
This preposterous rubbish is elaborated even more in latest Watchtower of Jan 2014 and now from the ‘generation’ scripture a second class of heavenly ‘chosen ones’ is deduced. (They make it up as they go along.) The governing body have already left planet Earth as their feet are no longer in contact with the ground! If you are a member of the Watchtower inner circle, with true Humpty Dumpty logic the new light is “Words can mean whatever you want them to”.
So...
Jehovah’s Witnesses have been shat on from the start and the ‘overcrapping generation’ doctrine must be the last straw for watchtower credibility for many of the ‘conscious class’ stuck inside the old organisation.
BTW for those still attending who have in the past been overcrapped --- you are all welcome here and we would love to hear your story!
Last Edited By: half banana Jan 23 14 12:17 AM. Edited 2 times.
status offlinewhytebyrd2
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I wonder if any of the governing body just read that?
One can only hope that SOMEBODY at Watchtower central reads some of this. If you are out there and did read, have some courage and integrity and tell the TRUTH!
It's all to keep an old publishing company alive.
Good write up HB!
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
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status offlinehalf banana
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Gee thanks Whytebyrd! not many brave souls reply to my little rants!!
I think the upper echelons do listen or read, otherwise the gb would not be able to report that their apostates "say hurtful things about them" as I read somewhere.
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half banana wrote:
Gee thanks Whytebyrd! not many brave souls reply to my little rants!!
I think the upper echelons do listen or read, otherwise the gb would not be able to report that their apostates "say hurtful things about them" as I read somewhere.
Yup, I think so too.
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I love your work BananaHalver!
I dare say someone of the WBTS persuasion would venture in here fairly regularly and be mortally wounded by such truth!!!! It's not going to be easy for the older ones to explain why the 1914 generation of people HAVE been and still ARE dropping off the perch with regularity. There's only so much that can be written off as 'new light'.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Good post H/B
Of course the WBT$ is going from looney tune to Jonestown.
WT 15 Nov 2013 - "At that time, the life-saving direction that we receive from Jehovah’s organization may not appear practical from a human standpoint. All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not. (4) Now is the time for any who may be putting their trust in secular education, material things, or human institutions to adjust their thinking. The elders must stand ready to help any who may now be wavering in their faith."
Regards Paul (MDA - Mentally diseased apostate)!
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
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Messed up bible verses
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offlineKefka6
Messed up bible verses
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I don't know if this belongs here so If it doesn't feel free to move it.
anyway after being dragged to the meeting today I started looking through my bible so I could have something to do and noticed this verse
Deuteronomy 25:11 if two men get into a fight with each other and the wife of one intervenes to protect her husband from the one striking him and she reaches out her hand and grabs hold of him by his private parts, you must amputate her hand. You should not feel sorry.
Thats messed up, so I started thinking what are the most messed up bible verses that you all know??? They could be funny ones too
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It's been a long time since I cracked open a bible. But from memory there are plenty truly messed up stories.
One that sticks out in my memory is from childhood family bible study time. We each had to take turns reading from the bible a chapter each out loud for an hour or more at the table after dinner. It was my fathers idea to get the whole family reading the bible and away from the "idiot box" as my father called the T.V.
I believe the setting was the Israelites wandering around for a while. (Here is where I only have vague memory so perhaps some one else knows how to fill in the blanks.) I think they met up with another camp. Something happened and I as a child had to read out loud about a woman being taken after intercourse by Israelite men. They killed her by shoving a sword up inside her and ripping her open.
I had that moment. When my world rocked for a moment and had prickling feeling run down my spine. The context of the scripture was that this woman deserved it. From memory it was a God directed act. Or at least I think it was claimed to be. I was a child that was recently told I wasn't allowed to watch some cartoon because of "violence" and yet I was made to sit at the table and read a description of the kind of violence my young mind had not ever come even close to encountering. And I kept wondering why. Why would Jehovah want me to know this and yet find something like the Smurfs or Scooby doo an intolerable abomination.
It got worse or perhaps just as bad as we read on. But I remember that moment because it was my first time. The first time I experienced true hard hitting cognitive dissonance. It's funny how reading the bible for my own good and "spiritual growth" put me on the path to rejecting it.
I Ctrl+Alt+Deleted My Religious Programming
"It is better to live one day as a lion, than a hundred years as sheep"
I would consider myself foolish if I listened to someone who refused to listen to me.
Last Edited By: Raine Jan 15 14 12:49 AM. Edited 1 times.
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Ever since the Catholic Church began, the sheep-like masses have been lulled into thinking that the Bible is the divine word of God. This is utter fiction. The Bible is certainly not original; at least 82% of it can be sourced in earlier idol-worshipping kingly literature. It bears all the ghastly hallmarks of human wisdom at its most chauvinistic, xenophobic and homophobic. To bring up your children in the light of its teachings would lead to calamity.
Here’s a little message on how retribution can make you happy. This is the Psalmists view. Glorifying the Jews revenging Babylon, in Psalms 137: 8, 9 it says: “Happy the man who repays you for all you did to us. Happy is he who shall seize your children [i.e. Babylon's children] and dash them against the rock”. NEB
What a happy god Jehovah is, how happy he is in delivering revenge. Smash kid’s heads in; that’s what Jehovah wants.
No seriously, the Holy Bible is absolutely fine and to be heartily recommended..................... if you still live in the Bronze Age.
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Since I no longer own a bible or any other "spiritual" publications sponsored by the WBTS I can't quote the exact scripture, so maybe someone else can tell us what book and verse this comes from: I could never accept the biblical rule (still a law and principle to the JW's) that a woman must scream if she is being raped or be condemned for it and then the absolutely inhumane requirement that her rapist has to marry her. Even man's rules in most countries prosecute rape as a crime...but our "Heavenly Father" and his earthly minions the JW's put the blame on the victim.
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You're right. Some times the scriptures (like this one) can make you nuts. But in this case, as in so many, the reason is faulty translation.
Verse 11, which tells of a case where a wife sees her husband being (smitten) [Hebrew: "Nah-KHAH" as in beat nearly to death, slay, kill] by an angry man, and "grabs with her hand [Hebrew YAHD] his "secrets"." "You shall cut off her hand [Hebrew KAHF, the palm or flat of a hand, a bowl or hollow object (something one might put valuables in), one's power--a completely different word and a completely different meaning not conferred by most English translators.
The Hebrew understanding is that she has to pay for injury done to the man who's sex organs she crunched. That's exactly how old time veterinarians castrated horses the more successful ones using pliers. If that caused a man to be impotent it would be a truly terrible thing, wouldn't it? It's possible this "cut off her hand" is like having to pay "out of hand" for medical expenses, loss of work, and other damages caused by her actions. 'For sure Cut off her hand 'no more means make her a one handed woman than you to be blinded because you caused someone else to lose their sight. It is all about determining equitable compensatory damages. What is the value of one eye? What is the value of a healthy sex life? For good or bad, this stuff is used every day in calculating Workers Compensation payouts .
The renown Sage Rashi, of 11th Century France, wrote this commentary on the two verses of Deut. 25:11, 12:
"She must pay monetary damages To recompense the victim for the embarrassment he suffered through her action. [The amount she must pay is calculated by the court,] all according to the [social status] of the culprit and the victim." (see Baba Kama 83b).
Other rabbis conclude it is one more warning about the futility and foolishness of physical fights.
Cee Cee
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Messed up bible verses
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offlineKefka6
Messed up bible verses
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I don't know if this belongs here so If it doesn't feel free to move it.
anyway after being dragged to the meeting today I started looking through my bible so I could have something to do and noticed this verse
Deuteronomy 25:11 if two men get into a fight with each other and the wife of one intervenes to protect her husband from the one striking him and she reaches out her hand and grabs hold of him by his private parts, you must amputate her hand. You should not feel sorry.
Thats messed up, so I started thinking what are the most messed up bible verses that you all know??? They could be funny ones too
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It's been a long time since I cracked open a bible. But from memory there are plenty truly messed up stories.
One that sticks out in my memory is from childhood family bible study time. We each had to take turns reading from the bible a chapter each out loud for an hour or more at the table after dinner. It was my fathers idea to get the whole family reading the bible and away from the "idiot box" as my father called the T.V.
I believe the setting was the Israelites wandering around for a while. (Here is where I only have vague memory so perhaps some one else knows how to fill in the blanks.) I think they met up with another camp. Something happened and I as a child had to read out loud about a woman being taken after intercourse by Israelite men. They killed her by shoving a sword up inside her and ripping her open.
I had that moment. When my world rocked for a moment and had prickling feeling run down my spine. The context of the scripture was that this woman deserved it. From memory it was a God directed act. Or at least I think it was claimed to be. I was a child that was recently told I wasn't allowed to watch some cartoon because of "violence" and yet I was made to sit at the table and read a description of the kind of violence my young mind had not ever come even close to encountering. And I kept wondering why. Why would Jehovah want me to know this and yet find something like the Smurfs or Scooby doo an intolerable abomination.
It got worse or perhaps just as bad as we read on. But I remember that moment because it was my first time. The first time I experienced true hard hitting cognitive dissonance. It's funny how reading the bible for my own good and "spiritual growth" put me on the path to rejecting it.
I Ctrl+Alt+Deleted My Religious Programming
"It is better to live one day as a lion, than a hundred years as sheep"
I would consider myself foolish if I listened to someone who refused to listen to me.
Last Edited By: Raine Jan 15 14 12:49 AM. Edited 1 times.
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Ever since the Catholic Church began, the sheep-like masses have been lulled into thinking that the Bible is the divine word of God. This is utter fiction. The Bible is certainly not original; at least 82% of it can be sourced in earlier idol-worshipping kingly literature. It bears all the ghastly hallmarks of human wisdom at its most chauvinistic, xenophobic and homophobic. To bring up your children in the light of its teachings would lead to calamity.
Here’s a little message on how retribution can make you happy. This is the Psalmists view. Glorifying the Jews revenging Babylon, in Psalms 137: 8, 9 it says: “Happy the man who repays you for all you did to us. Happy is he who shall seize your children [i.e. Babylon's children] and dash them against the rock”. NEB
What a happy god Jehovah is, how happy he is in delivering revenge. Smash kid’s heads in; that’s what Jehovah wants.
No seriously, the Holy Bible is absolutely fine and to be heartily recommended..................... if you still live in the Bronze Age.
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Since I no longer own a bible or any other "spiritual" publications sponsored by the WBTS I can't quote the exact scripture, so maybe someone else can tell us what book and verse this comes from: I could never accept the biblical rule (still a law and principle to the JW's) that a woman must scream if she is being raped or be condemned for it and then the absolutely inhumane requirement that her rapist has to marry her. Even man's rules in most countries prosecute rape as a crime...but our "Heavenly Father" and his earthly minions the JW's put the blame on the victim.
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You're right. Some times the scriptures (like this one) can make you nuts. But in this case, as in so many, the reason is faulty translation.
Verse 11, which tells of a case where a wife sees her husband being (smitten) [Hebrew: "Nah-KHAH" as in beat nearly to death, slay, kill] by an angry man, and "grabs with her hand [Hebrew YAHD] his "secrets"." "You shall cut off her hand [Hebrew KAHF, the palm or flat of a hand, a bowl or hollow object (something one might put valuables in), one's power--a completely different word and a completely different meaning not conferred by most English translators.
The Hebrew understanding is that she has to pay for injury done to the man who's sex organs she crunched. That's exactly how old time veterinarians castrated horses the more successful ones using pliers. If that caused a man to be impotent it would be a truly terrible thing, wouldn't it? It's possible this "cut off her hand" is like having to pay "out of hand" for medical expenses, loss of work, and other damages caused by her actions. 'For sure Cut off her hand 'no more means make her a one handed woman than you to be blinded because you caused someone else to lose their sight. It is all about determining equitable compensatory damages. What is the value of one eye? What is the value of a healthy sex life? For good or bad, this stuff is used every day in calculating Workers Compensation payouts .
The renown Sage Rashi, of 11th Century France, wrote this commentary on the two verses of Deut. 25:11, 12:
"She must pay monetary damages To recompense the victim for the embarrassment he suffered through her action. [The amount she must pay is calculated by the court,] all according to the [social status] of the culprit and the victim." (see Baba Kama 83b).
Other rabbis conclude it is one more warning about the futility and foolishness of physical fights.
Cee Cee
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"Predicting" ww1
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offlinenevermind
"Predicting" ww1
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Jan 7 14 10:59 PM
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I always find it interesting that JW's (in the past including myself) say the JW's predicted 1914 and world war 1.
Why we know that to be untrue, it sticks in the minds of many JW's.
For it to really be a divine prophecy, no man should have been able to predict this war either.
A few quotes from around the time dispel that myth.
On 9 November 1911, August Bebel, the Marxist politician who was one of the founders of the Social Democratic Party, rose in the Reichstag and made this speech, warning about the route down which Germany was hurtling: "There will be a catastrophe. Sixteen to 18 million men, the flower of different nations, will march against each other, equipped with lethal weapons.
In 1911 Winston Churchill wrote a surprisingly accurate paper on how Germany would invade France, and the tactical manoeuvres and amount of manpower Britain would deploy to France to prevent the Germans reaching Paris.
“Her only chance is to conquer Germany in France.” With a superior military force of numbers, the Germans, (2.2 million vs. 1.7 million), he wrote, would attack France and break their defenses of the River Meuse by D+20 days. The French would fall back to defend Paris and be augmented by the dispatch of 107,000 British troops upon a declaration of war, and another 100,000 to be sent from India to arrive in France no later than D+40. Eventually, France would prevail in “a decisive trial of strength.”
During 1912 and 1913, George S Patton Jr spent months touring the French Battlefields of the 1870's wars to gain intelligence of the coming war with Germany
If anything, it was clear the whole military and political world knew something was going to happen.
Some JW's say that World war 1 was not predicted, but as everyone in the world knows the date 1914. JW's claiming to know something about that date prophetic is a big selling point. If they said they prophesied something in 1910, nobody would pay attention.
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Yeah exactly, a lot of people suspected war was on the horizon. Russell was hardly unique.
I've talked to Witnesses about this issue and the thing they always say is that you can't take away from him that he picked 1914. He might not have known exactly what was going to happen but he knew the date was significant from the 1870's onward and now that the light is brighter we have true understanding. As I've said in other threads, I developed a fascination with Russell and his teachings.
Russell's first prophecy was that in 1874 Christ's second coming would occur. The world was supposed to be wrapped up in the next few years, with the rapture coming in '78. He used the size of the pyramids in Egypt to discern this. Following the lack of a rapture, he CHANGED the size of the pyramids in the books to push the date back to 1914.
Around 1900, Russell and his wife got a divorce. Russell's wife said under sworn testimony
"Rose has told me that you have been intimate with her, that you have been in the habit of hugging and kissing her and having her sit on your knee and fondling each other, and she tells me you bid her under no account to tell me, but she couldn't keep it any longer. She said if I was distressed about it she felt that she would have to come and make a confession to me, and she has done that. He tried to make light of it at first and I said, "Husband, you can't do that. I know the whole thing. She has told me straight and I know it to be true." Well, he said he was sorry; it was true, but he was sorry. He said he didn't mean any harm. I said, "I don't see how you could do an act like that without meaning harm.""
Here's some other quotes from Russell to show just how much guesswork and luck was truly involved. There was never any consistency to his words or the prophecy. It was really just a sales ploy.
1889: "If, then, the seventh thousand-year period of earth's history be an epoch specially noted as the period of Christ's reign, we shall by showing that it began in 1873, be proving that we are already in it."
1889 "In this chapter we present the Bible evidence which indicates that six thousand years from the creation of Adam were complete with A.D. 1872; and hence that, since A.D. 1872 are chronologically entered upon the seventh thousand or the Millennium."
1904 "According to our expectations the stress of the great time of trouble will be on us soon, somewhere between 1910 and 1912, culminating with the end of the 'Times of the Gentiles,' October, 1914."
1908 "True, it is expecting great things to claim, as we do, that within the coming twenty-six years all present governments will be overthrown and dissolved."
1889 "In the coming 26 years, all present governments will be overthrown and dissolved."
1915 "In view of this strong Bible evidence concerning the Times of the Gentiles, we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the kingdom of God, will be accomplished near the end of A.D. 1915."
Russell couldn't even maintain a 26 year period before 1914, let alone any timetable afterwards. The most embarrassing was the subsequent folly of predicting 1918 and 1925. Both dates came to pass.
So to review Russell's prophetic history: 1874, 1910, 1911, 1912, 1914, 1915, 1918, and then by Rutherford, 1925.
Russell is hardly notable. He's lucky he got a Wikipedia page.
Rose Ball was allegedly a "girl" when that court case happened, according to one newspaper. She later traveled to Australia and started her own Bible Student offshoot sect. It's still in existence today. Maybe our very own Andria could give them a visit! LOL (Source: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/scandals/142537/1/Found3d-Rose-Balls-Bible-Students-group-Still-going-in-Australia-2007#.Us13xPRDu0g).
Additional Sources: http://www.macquirelatory.com/False%20Prophecies%201.htm, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Taze_Russell
-Dave
“When I was 5 years old, my mother always told me that happiness was the key to life. When I went to school, they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. I wrote down ‘happy.' They told me I didn’t understand the assignment, and I told them they didn’t understand life.”
- John Lennon
Last Edited By: SwingLifeAway Jan 8 14 8:10 AM. Edited 2 times.
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It seems appropriate to add to this thread: One time I was in Brooklyn taking a tour, it was when I was very young. We have lots of family there, so we were getting a tour from my Mom's cousin. Eventually we ended up in the library. I thought the library was really cool because it had all the old books, it's probably the most complete library of JW materials in existence. I remember wanting to find the old books and look through them. Around that time my cousin made a comment to my Father.
Something along the lines of "yeah some of the brothers have spent too much time back here. They decide they want to look through all the old books. Some of them have gotten lost in it and it has stumbled their faith. Some have done this too much and even left Brooklyn, and the organization."
-Dave
“When I was 5 years old, my mother always told me that happiness was the key to life. When I went to school, they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. I wrote down ‘happy.' They told me I didn’t understand the assignment, and I told them they didn’t understand life.”
- John Lennon
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Hey Dave, I know what ya mean "old books". One of the older congregations I went to when my kids were small had a very well kept library of the "old books". When one of my kids asked to barrow a couple of the oldest ones he was told "just be careful cause there is some really weird stuff in them".
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I think WW1 almost broke out in 1905? Over Germany trying to gain influence in Morocco. The French pushed hard against it almost to war. The Germans backed down at that point, but the in 1911 the second Moroccan crisis happened again, pushing close to war again....
so putting "predictions" in 1874, 1910, 1911, 1912, 1914, 1915, 1918.... That's every year apart from 1913!!! War was basically imminent after the Morocco crises... a tinderbox.
No wonder they struck gold in 1914!!! I never noticed that before, it more than dispels the myth that they "accurately predicted" anything.
Its like predicting a fire in the Australian bush after the hottest and driest summer on record....
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Vague nonsense does not count as a "prediction". Saying the end of the world is coming in 1914 means he was wrong because the world did not end. Even if he pulled only one date out of his ass and made the claim for only that one year, he was still wrong because his prediction was not specific. Not only did the world not end in 1914, but society rebounded from both world wars and is now thriving like no other time in history.
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Russell predicted the second coming of Jesus Christ, understood approximately the same way the more outrageous fundamentalist Protestants still do.
Including even the "rapture", though he didn't use that word.
Only afterward was it discovered that Russell predicted what actually did happen.
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yeah, they changed the wording of his "prediction" after something newsworthy actually happened during 1914. It's the same trick people have been using for thousands of years...ignore the misses and try to make the "hits" seem more credible.
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What the Watchtower said
prior to 1914
What the Watchtower claims it said
prior to 1914
"The year A.D. 1878 … clearly marks the time for the actual assuming of power as King of kings, by our present, spiritual, invisible Lord - …" The Time is At Hand (1911 ed) p.239
"The Watchtower has consistently presented evidence to honesthearted students of Bible prophecy that Jesus’ presence in heavenlyKingdom power began in 1914." Watchtower1993 Jan 15 p.5
"But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble. Zion's Watch Tower 1894 Jul 15 p.226
"Jehovah's witnesses pointed to the year 1914, decades in advance, as marking the start of "the conclusion of the system of things."Awake! 1973 Jan 22 p.8
The above comparison is from JWFacts.
Doesn't it show how easy it is to re-write your history in a more favorable light? How unscrupulous and un-Christian and downright untruthful the Watchtower Organisation is?
I haven’t time at the moment to do more investigation but I recall the idea that 1914 was simply forty years from 1874. It was significant that by that outside date the king,who had arrived in heaven in 1874 (so they said) would have destroyed the nations, earthly kings and opposers... and all would be hunky-dory on Earth.
With reference to JWs and the 1914 date:
They announced that the world had in fact ended in 1914, and if the rest of us hadn't noticed, that was our lookout. It is astonishing in the face of such transparent evasions that this religion has any adherents at all. But religions are tough. Either they make no contentions which are subject to disproof or they quickly redesign doctrine after disproof. The fact that religions can be so shamelessly dishonest, so contemptuous of the intelligence of their adherents, and still flourish does not speak very well for the tough-mindedness of the believers. But it does indicate, if a demonstration were needed, that near the core of the religious experience is something remarkably resistant to rational inquiry."
Broca's Brain, Carl Sagan (New York: Ballantine Books, 1979, pp. 332-33)
Russell was gravely disappointed his expectations were unfulfilled in 1914, so two years before his death, his lifetime’s expectation of world peace was shattered by world war . (Have a look at "overcrapping generations")
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On Shunning and Letting Go
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offlineSailAway
On Shunning and Letting Go
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Mar 2 14 3:47 PM
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I wrote this article for a non-Ex JW forum. I decided to post it here for a few reasons-- to inform non-believers, to inform current JWs who are presently considering or in the process of leaving and to let those of you here on this forum who know me and my situation know just where I am in my recovery process. I hope this can help in some small way.
So I have been asked to talk about my cult involvement (42 years in a fundamentalist, end-times religious cult) when I am ready. I am ready to talk about shunning today. First, I'd like to say, that I have not been able to sustain journaling in the past, and this is really helping me sort things through and get things out of my head. So thanks for reading, and just skip over if you have no interest in the inner workings of a cult/high-control fundamentalist religion. For the purpose of clarity, any words in quotation marks are cult terminology and loaded language.
So much change is happening within "the organization". Members refuse to call it a Church, as this might show a connection to "Christendom", the worst "false religion" on the planet in their eyes-- reprehensible for misrepresenting "The Truth" (their Truth) about "the only true God" for whom the leaders are "the sole channel of communication for God on earth today".
In my opinion, either they are trying to divert from 2014 which is 100 years since they said that Christ was "enthroned invisibly in heaven" and that "this system of things" would soon end (They said that in 1975 too and forbade members from getting a college degree, because "the end" was soooo close. I was there. I remember. I didn't go to college. They deny all the pre-1975 hype now, laying the blame on the rank and file having unrealistic expectations. They have put their own false predictions out of print, so new members don't know.), and/or they are setting things up to be able to more readily identify faders (a term used by ex-cult members for people who are trying to exit quietly, fade as it were, in order to keep family connections).
The cult has printed and released a new, revised (2013) Bible translation to more accurately reflect their interpretation and doctrine. In July of 2013, they changed so many primary doctrines that the beliefs are no longer recognizable to me. Recent letters to the "Body of Elders" (These letters are being leaked via the Internet to ex-cult members from currently still-in "Elders" who need to stay in to maintain family relationships. These "Elders" are known by the ex-cult community as "The Conscious Class".
Cult leadership is introducing new terminology and changes to the required meeting/assemblies/convention schedules. This is a way of using loaded language. Certain words take on meaning only known to the cult members. If you don't use the correct and most recent terminology, you can be identified as not" keeping pace" with "The Organization" and are considered a "spiritually weak" person to be wary of. No questioning of "New Light" is tolerated. Members become the thought police. There is no room for believing or thinking differently than the party line. Absolutely no "independent thinking" is allowed.
Sadly, I am coming to terms with losing my best “friend” in "The Truth". I haven’t seen her since last summer, and she has agreed to and then postponed three lunch dates. Always too busy. I dearly miss her, but I have to let her go. I really thought of her as my sister and friend, but that’s just not the way it is in a cult. Friendships are conditional upon belief. I no longer believe.
I am being preemptively shunned by all other members (I know close to 1,000 members locally. I know their stories, how they "came in to The Truth"; I raised my kids with their kids. Some of their kids have "left The Truth", as mine have, and they are shunning their own children. This has led to suicides within these families.) I have not, to their knowledge, broken any cult rules. I simply walked away. Technically, we can still speak in public, but if I were to be disfellowshipped, they would be required to shun me openly. Now, we can have a brief polite exchange if we meet, but they do not initiate contact with me other than the infrequent leaving of an invitation to a "special” event in my door. They don't even knock or ring the bell. I have been home and seen this.
After decades of "living in a divided household" (My husband and daughter walked away; my son was disfellowshipped.), I nearly lost my sanity. There is a term cult exit counselors use-- cognitive dissonance. It can literally kill you and nearly did kill me. Cognitive dissonance happens when you are being taught (read brainwashed) to believe one thing and your heart is telling you another. You are literally at war within yourself. I was over-medicated by psychiatrist for severe, recurrent clinical depression and PTSD and ended up in the ER nearly in need of dialysis from brain toxicity to the medication. My doctor was not listening to me about my side effects. I had no idea of what cognitive dissonance was and that I was experiencing it.
The teachings on shunning have morphed over the decades from, ex-communication as practiced by the Catholic Church is not a biblical teaching (before my time), to if a family member is disfellowshipped, family ties are not broken, just don't talk about "spiritual matters" (this is what I was raised to believe), to if a family member is disfellowshipped, you may only talk about "essential family business" and should have no social interaction, to the latest teaching, which is that you must absolutely "not say a single word" or even email or send a text message to anyone, including a family member who is not currently living under your roof and is disfellowshipped or "disassociated by their actions" (such as joining the military, celebrating "worldly" holidays, joining the Y, becoming a member of a "false religion" (hence an "Apostate"),"unrepentantly" taking a blood transfusion, etc. There is entire book of DFing/DAing rules which is not known to the rank and file members.)
My son is DF'd, my daughter is DA'd by her actions. She went to college, lived an "immoral lifestyle" including having pre-marital sex (Yes, they do police sexual behaviors, even within a marriage.) and married an "unbeliever". My husband faded over 30 years before I woke up and left. Bottom line-- I was NOT going to shun my children!
I had a shift in thought yesterday regarding my in-laws and shunning. I have always taken responsibility for our family communication, rather it was left with me. My in-laws are fully indoctrinated 60-year zealots who are shunning their only son and our children. My MIL hadn't written since last November. They don't call, since they are shunning their son. I specifically told my MIL by letter that I was busy with caring for my mom with Alzheimer's Disease, we would be visiting our daughter during her break from teaching school late in December. We were celebrating Christmas together as a family for the first time ever-- definitely a disfellowshipping offense. They do not need to know that!
Our son joined us. Technically, even being in my son's presence and speaking with him could be a DA offense. Even "association" with a DA'd member (my daughter) is disapproved, but is usually overlooked unless you are a high-profile member (who need to "take the lead" and "set the proper example" or are rank and file members who are flaunting this "association" in front of other members. Somehow my in-laws got it mixed up and thought we were still there (out of country since Mid-December)? Seems odd. They are 90 years old and perhaps forgetful.
At any rate my husband finally called to check in. He usually waits until there is a major weather-related event as an excuse to call. My MIL talked to him very briefly (less than 30 seconds), seemed surprised that we were back already. She passed the phone to my FIL, who then talked to my husband for quite a bit longer than usual. FIL is an "Elder", so he can technically talk to my husband to "encourage him" to "come back to the fold", but this conversation, although including the obligatory, "you need to go to the meetings", went well beyond the scope of "necessary family business" and certainly beyond the new, "not a single word" dictate. My husband is neither DF'd or DA'd, so maybe FIL is sticking to "the letter of the law" or simply not keeping up with "New Light."
I told my husband today that I’m going to hold off writing to my MIL. I don’t really know my FIL after all these (36) years of our marriage, and I do not like my MIL-- never have, never will. Neither asked about me during the phone call. When my husband said I had been "missing a few meetings" (Red alert!) to take care of my mom (I asked him to say this to lead them to believe I am still going to meetings, so that they will maintain contact for my husband's sake. If they find out I have left, we do believe they will cut off all communication entirely. I don't want my husband to find out that one or both of his parents died at the reading of their will, which BTW, he is explicitly written out of. The cult takes all). In response to that comment, my FIL said, "We always make meetings a priority no matter what is going on." Whatever.
My MIL wrote a letter this week, not commenting on anything I had said in my last letter; and of course, it was preachy and full of cult speak. I just think it’s time for my husband to work out his relationship with his own parents, whatever that may be, just like I’m having to work out my relationship with my mother. It is time for me to step back, so as I said, I’m not writing my MIL for now and told my husband so. I gave him her letter which was addressed to both of us. I just can't be in the middle anymore, nor can I feel responsible for holding the family together anymore, it is detrimental to my inner peace.
SailAway
What is needed for dramatic change is an accumulation of acts, adding, adding to, adding more, continuing. We know that it does not take everyone on Earth to bring justice and peace, but only a small, determined group who will not give up during the first, second, or hundredth gale.
One of the most calming and powerful actions you can do to intervene in a stormy world is to stand up and show your soul. Soul on deck shines like gold in dark times. The light of the soul throws sparks, can send up flares, builds signal fires, causes proper matters to catch fire. To display the lantern of soul in shadowy times like these – to be fierce and to show mercy toward others; both are acts of immense bravery and greatest necessity.
Struggling souls catch light from other souls who are fully lit and willing to show it. If you would help to calm the tumult, this is one of the strongest things you can do.
Excerpts from, You Were Made for This, by Clarissa Pinkola Estes, Ph.D
Last Edited By: SailAway Mar 5 14 1:28 AM. Edited 1 time.
status offlineKBG
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SailAway wrote:
I wrote ...
In my opinion, either they are trying to divert from 2014 which is 100 years since they said that Christ was "enthroned invisibly in heaven" and that "this system of things" would soon end (They said that in 1975 too and forbade members from getting a college degree, because "the end" was soooo close. I was there. I remember. I didn't go to college. They deny all the pre-1975 hype now, laying the blame on the rank and file having unrealistic expectations. They have put their own false predictions out of print, so new members don't know.), and/or they are setting things up to be able to more readily identify faders (a term used by ex-cult members for people who are trying to exit quietly, fade as it were, in order to keep family connections)....
Sailaway,
I disagree with this, you said either..or but I think you're wrong, its both.
Seriously, you express yourself so well. Either that, or you speak well to MY way of thinking.
Thank you for sharing this.
Kevin
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KBG wrote:
SailAway wrote:
I wrote ...
In my opinion, either they are trying to divert from 2014 which is 100 years since they said that Christ was "enthroned invisibly in heaven" and that "this system of things" would soon end (They said that in 1975 too and forbade members from getting a college degree, because "the end" was soooo close. I was there. I remember. I didn't go to college. They deny all the pre-1975 hype now, laying the blame on the rank and file having unrealistic expectations. They have put their own false predictions out of print, so new members don't know.), and/or they are setting things up to be able to more readily identify faders (a term used by ex-cult members for people who are trying to exit quietly, fade as it were, in order to keep family connections)....
Sailaway,
I disagree with this, you said either..or but I think you're wrong, its both.
Seriously, you express yourself so well. Either that, or you speak well to MY way of thinking.
Thank you for sharing this.
Kevin
Lol! Kevin, you do agree with me! Look again-- I said "and/or", and I strongly lean toward AND!
The 14th-century Persian poet Hafiz wrote:
Every child has known God,
Not the God of names,
Not the God of don'ts,
Not the God who ever does anything weird,
But the God who knows only four words,
And keeps repeating them, saying:
"Come Dance with Me."
Come Dance
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Sounds like an attorney presenting their case before the judge...it's either or ....no room for thinking outside of the box.
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The teachings on shunning have morphed over the decades from, ex-communication as practiced by the Catholic Church is not a biblical teaching (before my time), to if a family member is disfellowshipped, family ties are not broken, just don't talk about "spiritual matters" (this is what I was raised to believe), to if a family member is disfellowshipped, you may only talk about "essential family business" and should have no social interaction, to the latest teaching, which is that you must absolutely "not say a single word" or even email or send a text message to anyone, including a family member who is not currently living under your roof and is disfellowshipped or "disassociated by their actions" (such as joining the military, celebrating "worldly" holidays, joining the Y, becoming a member of a "false religion" (hence an "Apostate"),"unrepentantly" taking a blood transfusion, etc. There is entire book of DFing/DAing rules which is not known to the rank and file members.)
Interesting. I notice for a while there my dad (JW elder) would have conversations with me, (I'm disfellowshipped) but I notice in the past year or so his conversations have become short, brief, and few and far between.
I never know what to expect with him. So I manage my expectations accordingly.
I just can't be in the middle anymore, nor can I feel responsible for holding the family together anymore, it is detrimental to my inner peace.
Sailaway, I think it is very healthy that you have come to this realization. You are only responsible for your own actions, no one else's. And we have to remove those things that are toxic to our mental well being. Good for you.
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Sailaway, we can understand what you wrote but how about those on the forum you wrote this for? What were their responses?
I've found that those outside the JW thing usually can't wrap their heads around what JW's do. The Christians say it's totally Unchristian what they do and most use the "C" word pretty unanimously......it's a CULT!
I've been admonished to just 'let them (my JW family) go by a few of my friends but others think I should 'storm the castle' only because just hearing my story brings so much pain. It makes them mad.
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
t.s.eliot
Last Edited By: whytebyrd2 Mar 3 14 8:23 AM. Edited 1 times.
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Sailaway,
As you know, I also have such a family. One of my sisters is locked into the same pattern. You are a peace maker; you want to fix it. If you can't fix it, makes you upset. (not a criticism; I think it's a noble trait)
One cannot fix, or adjust the expectations of black/white thinking fundamentalist cult members who are of a certain age. Lying to them,to find favour, diminishes both their opinion of us, and our own opinion of ourselves. . The challenge for us is to come up with a non angry, and non reactive way to let them know what is our reality.
Here is my current approach. " I respect your right to your beliefs. However, I do not share your beliefs, as I am an atheist. I believe that there are harmful elements to your beliefs that have greatly damaged our family. If you would care to hear them, I can specifically outline them for you, without use of any religious book. I have very strongly held, and well researched opinions on this matter. Out of respect to your beliefs, I will not discuss or challenge your beliefs, if you will afford me the same courtesy. "
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palmel1234 wrote:
The teachings on shunning have morphed over the decades from, ex-communication as practiced by the Catholic Church is not a biblical teaching (before my time), to if a family member is disfellowshipped, family ties are not broken, just don't talk about "spiritual matters" (this is what I was raised to believe), to if a family member is disfellowshipped, you may only talk about "essential family business" and should have no social interaction, to the latest teaching, which is that you must absolutely "not say a single word" or even email or send a text message to anyone, including a family member who is not currently living under your roof and is disfellowshipped or "disassociated by their actions" (such as joining the military, celebrating "worldly" holidays, joining the Y, becoming a member of a "false religion" (hence an "Apostate"),"unrepentantly" taking a blood transfusion, etc. There is entire book of DFing/DAing rules which is not known to the rank and file members.)
Interesting. I notice for a while there my dad (JW elder) would have conversations with me, (I'm disfellowshipped) but I notice in the past year or so his conversations have become short, brief, and few and far between.
I never know what to expect with him. So I manage my expectations accordingly.
I just can't be in the middle anymore, nor can I feel responsible for holding the family together anymore, it is detrimental to my inner peace.
Sailaway, I think it is very healthy that you have come to this realization. You are only responsible for your own actions, no one else's. And we have to remove those things that are toxic to our mental well being. Good for you.
Thanks, Palmel! I am feeling a huge sense of relief about this decision. I stopped being the peacemaker and information central in my extended family about a year ago now. That feels good too. I took me longer to see how my involvement wasn't helping my husband's relationship (as limited as it is) with his parents, and it certainly isn't helping me.
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whytebyrd2 wrote:
Sailaway, we can understand what you wrote but how about those on the forum you wrote this for? What were their responses?
I've found that those outside the JW thing usually can't wrap their heads around what JW's do. The Christians say it's totally Unchristian what they do and most use the "C" word pretty unanimously......it's a CULT!
I've been admonished to just 'let them (my JW family) go by a few of my friends but others think I should 'storm the castle' only because just hearing my story brings so much pain. It makes them mad.
WhyteByrd, yes, I did get that response-- "How unchristian!" "God is Love! He wouldn't want anyone to behave this way!" Yes, there was outrage. Other responses included, "It's hard to see how so many people could be duped like this. They must be really good salesman!" "You are handling this in a very compassionate way." One person noted that, "Shunning by one person is very difficult and painful, but I can't fathom being shunned by a whole community." Several people expressed empathy and concern over losing a long-time friend. One asked how I got involved at such a young age.
Regarding our own families, we each have to make our own decision on how to handle shunning, because we are the ones that have to handle the fall out. Sometimes we decide to change our approach over time. I think I'm feeling that my pretending it's not there is making me feel complicit on some level. On more than one occasion, I have called both my MIL and FIL out on behaviors and speech toward my children that were just not acceptable.
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Locutus wrote:
Sailaway,
As you know, I also have such a family. One of my sisters is locked into the same pattern. You are a peace maker; you want to fix it. If you can't fix it, makes you upset. (not a criticism; I think it's a noble trait)
One cannot fix, or adjust the expectations of black/white thinking fundamentalist cult members who are of a certain age. Lying to them,to find favour, diminishes both their opinion of us, and our own opinion of ourselves. . The challenge for us is to come up with a non angry, and non reactive way to let them know what is our reality.
Here is my current approach. " I respect your right to your beliefs. However, I do not share your beliefs, as I am an atheist. I believe that there are harmful elements to your beliefs that have greatly damaged our family. If you would care to hear them, I can specifically outline them for you, without use of any religious book. I have very strongly held, and well researched opinions on this matter. Out of respect to your beliefs, I will not discuss or challenge your beliefs, if you will afford me the same courtesy. "Locutus, thank you for saying trying to be a peacemaker is a noble trait. That is kind of you. It is just costing me too much at this point in my life. And no, we absolutely can't "fix or adjust the expectation of black/white thinking fundamentalist cult members who are of a certain age."
You have made clear your position about lying and its impact on our opinions of ourselves. I still struggle with the definition of lying. As we know the JW definition is withholding information from those who have the right (The Elders) to know. This definition then make "Theocratic Warfare tactic acceptable in their minds. Over the years I have been keenly sensitive to lies of omission by my husband. This fogging of my in-laws, withholding information, talking about things they want to hear and saying them in a way such as not to be explicitly lying, yet withholding how I really think and feel is not who I am. That being said, I don't think I have the right to damage what little relationship my husband has with his father. That is why I have come to the decision that not writing letters to my MIL and letting my husband forge his own relationship with is father is the best route for now. I honestly don't think we well ever visit again. They are 90 years old. They live over 500 miles away, and it is just too painful. On our last visit, my MIL asked me directly, "Are you still going to meetings?" I responded, "Why would you ask me such a thing?", shook my head and walked away.
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Palm - So good hearing from you Throw heart kisses
I keep forgetting to acknowledge WhyBird2 - smiley: eyes...but I certainly enjoy reading through all this site as time allows. Ya'll have been my saving graceGirl hissy fit and I can't say enough good things for our members.
We are a community of persons that each have a story for sharing with the shunning issue...how we often struggle for finding recovery. Have you read through Randy's [Rawe] lastest post because it's about taking the legal action and although it moves slowly, things are hopefully changing and he too needs support because it can be stressful when dealing with the legal.
Take Care, LIN
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Beautifully expressed Mrs S.
Given you have been the one trying to keep things together and still keep banging your head against the proverbial religious brick wall ... I don't blame you for taking time out. You deserve a break!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Before I say anything I just want to put it out that this organization (and the purpose of this topic) in not about religious conversion or any religious message. I want to let everyone know about this great group of people who have made an organization that is standing up and letting people know about the Truth of what the WBTS does. This is a pretty cool video. Check it out maybe? http://http://youtube.com/watch?v=fcIC4g5tulw
status offlineCacky
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Oct 22 13 3:59 AM
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I wish I could get involved with the group, but I can't do anything publicly in order to keep my jw daughters from shunning me.
status offline70wksofyrs
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I love AAWA. Lee Marsh is a fabulous woman. High IQ and really knows her stuff. I post there a lot, please go check out some of my threads
70wks....
status offlineHeliaphora
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Sigh the one corner that groups drama hadn't made it to now seems to have arrived here.
status offlinebirdwoman2
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@Helia...
smiley: laugh
status offlineirishshane
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Heliaphora wrote:
Sigh the one corner that groups drama hadn't made it to now seems to have arrived here.
nope, lost me with that comment.
"To have it come around once is a dream, to have it come around twice is incredible. - Declan Kidney (Munster rugby coach) 24th May 2008
---*---
This is the dark heart of the Heineken Cup - Stuart Barnes in Thomond Park January 2006
---*---
http://youtu.be/BFJ65Og3A2o - Was at this match with an amazing finish. You will see Cian (red hat) behind the women in this clip 6:50-6:57. G'WAN MUNSTER !!!
status offlineCaliHippie
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What are your experiences with AAWA? Are they messy?
status offlineirishshane
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There was one or two teething problems at the beginning which seems to have clouded a few peoples perception of them but more recently they are getting some press releases out there.
Personally I think they've done a pretty good job in their first 6 months of existence and I think they will do more in time.
"To have it come around once is a dream, to have it come around twice is incredible. - Declan Kidney (Munster rugby coach) 24th May 2008
---*---
This is the dark heart of the Heineken Cup - Stuart Barnes in Thomond Park January 2006
---*---
http://youtu.be/BFJ65Og3A2o - Was at this match with an amazing finish. You will see Cian (red hat) behind the women in this clip 6:50-6:57. G'WAN MUNSTER !!!
status offline70wksofyrs
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No act of kindness however small is ever wasted-heli
They are just trying to help
70wks...
status offlinebelladiane
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Hi there, clicked the link and it doesn't work for me, copied and pasted in URL and still nothing.
status offlineHeliaphora
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Irishshane you use the word clouded as if those incidents has created a faulty image for me and that yours by comparison is crystal clear. You also seem to have attempted to lump me in the minority automatically giving you the appearance of having the backing of the majority. Add that you are addressing a community that has been hurt by the jw and at times feels helpless an organization that is trying to help is viewed in a favorable light.
It's yet to be seen what they will be able to do. They do have very polished and well presented videos. Initially I was interested in a more organized effort to help those leaving and did follow news when they first launched as The Association of Anti-Watchtower Activists. I wanted to know did they approach any experts in methods to communicating effectively with members in high control religions? Would they model after some of the ex Mormon or Amish organizations that work to finding shelter, food, and education opportunities for members that leave the community without a support network? When talk of a hotline for those that had been damaged by the JWs was discussed I wanted to know how it would be determined who would man those lines and what their qualifications were. Would they be networking with therapists with a specialty in cults so they would have a method of finding and recommending qualified in person help to those that call? These were just a few of the questions I had.
One of the major questions, how would they ensure the privacy of those seeking help, was one of the subjects of the "teething problems" that you mentioned Irish. When asked directly about how privacy would be guarded one member of the advisory board was not only uninformative but openly hostile acting as if the question was insulting. That it was a legitimate question and that it was suppose to be the introductory thread to "pitch" the organization to the greater ex JW community I would assume that they would have been prepared to detail the ideas they were presenting or at the very least understand the very basic and polite phrase "let me get back to you on that". These people would be actively attempting to help those members of the community and to do so effectively would require a certain aplomb that one member could not even maintain through an introduction thread that had the advantage of having more time to think before replying then say a face to face conversation would have.
That the whole forced add/outing that happened on Facebook followed quickly on the heels of the question just emphasizes my point that those concerns were not addressed before launch. This wasn't an opps I made a typo on a flyer. Some were put in very difficult positions by an organization that they had little to nothing to do with which makes the polished and well presented press releases seem rather paltry by comparison.
I looked further into the organization and though I found their open offer and mission statement a bit overly idealistic and that they were not addressing some of the gaps that I had hoped an organization would eventually fill I found few things to criticizes in either the offer or statement. There was mention of calm and respect when offering to sit down with the Governing Body the objectives were clear in being productive and making it easier for those that wish to leave. I thought it was a decent foundation even if I disagreed on some points. I looked at the individuals that wanted to have this productive and respectful conversation with the JW leaders. One while simultaneously involving himself in the attempt to "respectfully" speak to the GB was having a send your own "flip the bird at the KH" picture campaign. Now of course this was done on his personal time and he's allowed to act as inconsistent as he pleases but why would I then have confidence in his ability to participate in approaching those wishing to leave or having a respectable conversation with the JW leaders with out it looking utterly absurd? 70wks you point out my avatar which is quite apt. That is the crux of my criticism of the leadership in that organization. Is taking and collecting pictures of people standing in front of the kingdom hall flipping them off kind? Is this who you want those having doubts to see in the parking lot? Is this helpful? Respectful? Effective? How much damage could those actions possibly have done? That he can then sit and advise an organization that's goal is to make it easier to leave(wonder how many he managed to scare back)is amusing irony.
I don't fault their intention I fault their actions and the consequence of them. In six months they have managed to hurt members in the community with a few videos to show for it. Something that could have been gotten off YouTube with out disrupting a bunch of peoples lives. My criticism is simple they have managed to do more harm then good. Cali you asked me if my experience was messy. I didn't participate at all. I simply observed to see if it was an organization I could get involved in. It was not. I don't want myself or former friends and family to be part of their learning curve. Learning that could have been avoided with a little fore thought and taking outsiders concerns seriously before it becomes an issue.
Edited for spelling errors
Last Edited By: Heliaphora Oct 23 13 8:12 AM. Edited 2 times.
status offlineCaliHippie
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@belladiane, try this one http://youtube.com/watch?v=fcIC4g5tulw
status offlineirishshane
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Heliaphora wrote:
Irishshane you use the word clouded as if those incidents has created a faulty image for me and that yours by comparison is crystal clear. You also seem to have attempted to lump me in the minority automatically giving you the appearance of having the backing of the majority. Add that you are addressing a community that has been hurt by the jw and at times feels helpless an organization that is trying to help is viewed in a favorable light.
I think you are reading too much into what I wrote.
Firstly I quoted you and asked for an explanation of your earlier post where you said, "Sigh the one corner that groups drama hadn't made it to now seems to have arrived here."
My next post on this thread was in relation to cali's question where she asked ".......are they messy?"
I thought I was quite honest in my answer. In no way was I intending to diminish what others thought. I was open that yes there was problems at the outset but by and large they seem to have settled down in the last few months. I stand by that statement.
Your opinion is yours and I respect that.
"To have it come around once is a dream, to have it come around twice is incredible. - Declan Kidney (Munster rugby coach) 24th May 2008
---*---
This is the dark heart of the Heineken Cup - Stuart Barnes in Thomond Park January 2006
---*---
http://youtu.be/BFJ65Og3A2o - Was at this match with an amazing finish. You will see Cian (red hat) behind the women in this clip 6:50-6:57. G'WAN MUNSTER !!!
status offlineHeliaphora
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Irish forgive me rereading your statement with what you just now said I realized that I took it as directed at me when it was not meant that way. What I meant by the sigh was simply that since it's appearance it has seemed to have managed not much more then drama. Some is the inherent nature of trying to work with people on an emotive topic. We have it here as we each try to suss out everything post JW. A major contribution to the drama with that particular group is the temperament of those attempting to "herd the cats" as they put it. I was happy when it seemed to have missed this forum for the most part.
status offlineSailAway
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Hi folks! I have hesitated to comment on this forum about AAWA. Lee Marsh is a lovely and highly-competent woman with a big heart. I volunteered for AAWA in its early months after the FB outing issues. I will say that there was a lot of "drama" and it was indeed "messy". There is a lot to do to get an advocacy group up and running. It takes commitment and level heads. Let's just say the full-speed-ahead enthusiasm and commitment were there. There are many kind and talented people volunteering their time and skills. Good things are coming from AWWA. I wish them success.
I took my leave after getting caught in the middle negotiating a truce between two members (one a moderator) who where having an intense disagreement with one another, followed by yet another change in protocol, my position and responsibilities. I was not advised of the change, but there is was in my face when I logged in. I have too much stress in my own life for that.
Yesterday I posted my last post on JWN. It is the wild, wild west over there! There has been yet another uproar in the last few days over past AAWA issues being aired between Cedars (Screen name of the original AWWA president) and Simon (The owner/moderator of JWN) fueled by supporters on both sides. I think the moderators here are great! In my opinion moderators need to be level-headed, non-reactive and stay above the fray. Sadly that is not the case in either of these situations.
If the AAWA vitriol and drama seeps in onto this lovely forum, my days here will be numbered. I trust that the moderators here will do their job well. Enough said. I won't comment any further. image
Last Edited By: SailAway Oct 24 13 5:46 AM. Edited 3 times.
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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We are not part of the AAWA Diane ....... we are a separate entity and our forum format works well. Be assured that the admin team and moddies in here are as watchful as always .....
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Simon can be somewhat of a 'shit-stirrer' too. That's why I'm grateful our beloved Ronnie and the Mods do their job for helping protect us.
As for AAWA- it is something new for recovering JW's and we need giving them a change to be established...
For those that need keeping 'secret' I can respect that too.
Guess when you get to be my age- you just no longer care what others think of you - especially when they are the bigger idiot and hide behind religionsmiley: mad
That's why we , some of us, continue doing research and read books written by former members.
I'll try checking into the web site...
Love, Lin
status offlineCaliHippie
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Oct 27 13 6:19 AM
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Well I certainly seem to have opened a can of worms lol
status offlinebelladiane
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Thank you Calli, that one works
status offlinebelladiane
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Hum, just looked at the site briefly, not sure exactly what it is suppose to be. Read some mixed comments as it appears that some are cheering and some are bashing that particular site. Odd.
Anyway, just glad I found my permanent home here....thanks guys!
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Cali- Go for it! Open the can of worms...if it helps you, it helps others too.
Stay strong; speak your mind and move forward into a different life while getting older.
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I yelled at god today
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offlineleostarzz
I yelled at god today
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Aug 22 13 6:12 AM
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I yelled at god today ...watching the news ..when they showed the children in Syria killed by poison gas ...how could god let this happen ...any god ....any god at all ...the witness would say god can't do anything cause satan rules earth now ...whatever lame excuse they use to justify god not stepping in ...me I'm mad as hell ,I can't justify it ...I can't ...where is god ? I'm done ...not done crying through ....I may never get those images out of my mind . I yelled at god today ... And he didn't care....feeling lost.
status offlinebirdwoman2
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Aug 22 13 6:40 AM
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Well, Leo, you certainly aren't the first and you most certainly won't be the last person to feel like you do now.
However, you can change feeling lost to feeling, finally, like a real human being, feeling like so many other people do.
Welcome to the human race.
“I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.”
- Susan B. Anthony
status offlinenonniejw
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Aug 22 13 12:15 PM
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Personally, I feel God gave man free will, and with that comes horrible things, as well as wonderful things.
I would yell too, and have yelled before.
Life is full of bad as well as good. I prefer to focus on what good I can do. Our little bit of good might grow into a lot of good. You just never know.
I'm sorry for how awful you are feeling right now. Many are feeling awful right along with you, including myself.
status offlineleostarzz
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Aug 22 13 7:19 PM
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Free will ..not good enough...free will means awe just kill each other ...take out the little kids too...not buying it ...he's god ! He should do the right thing! ..err I let him have it ... There is no excuse.
Ok so I felt like I was yelling at myself ...even the dog hid ...but dam it ...why believe? I want to so badly , but can't find the logic in religion. And this just puts the nailin the coffin ...no more news for me ...lol
status offlineSailAway
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Aug 23 13 5:39 AM
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Actually, Leostarzz, maybe no news for a while might be a good idea for you. I have been on a news blackout since the Sandy Hook, CT USA shootings. I seem to hear the biggest stuff eventually through word of mouth, and I'm not subjecting my brain to all those negative images. Sandy Hook triggered my post-traumatic stress in a big way. I had to go back into therapy. I'm lots better now, and I still avoid televised news. I read an interesting article on-line (I like the Huffington Post) or in Time magazine now and then. That's enough for me.
Bubble bath
The 14th-century Persian poet Hafiz wrote:
Every child has known God,
Not the God of names,
Not the God of don'ts,
Not the God who ever does anything weird,
But the God who knows only four words,
And keeps repeating them, saying:
"Come Dance with Me."
Come Dance
status offlineVancity
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Leo, God has either been an evil asshole or an incompetent buffoon since He supposedly created humanity. He bumbles His way through the stories of the bible, screwing up left, right and center then blaming His creations for His incompetence. No real, loving entity that has any kind of real power would allow these kind of atrocities to occur. This brings us to two possible conclusions if God does indeed exist: He's either unable or unwilling to control evil. Whichever choice you make, this God is unworthy of worship.
status offlineSailAway
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Aug 27 13 4:14 AM
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LeoStarzz, It sounds like you may be ready to read The God Delusion, by Richard Dawkins!!!
The 14th-century Persian poet Hafiz wrote:
Every child has known God,
Not the God of names,
Not the God of don'ts,
Not the God who ever does anything weird,
But the God who knows only four words,
And keeps repeating them, saying:
"Come Dance with Me."
Come Dance
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Sep 14 13 11:13 PM
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Rubadubdub wrote:
LeoStarzz, It sounds like you may be ready to read The God Delusion, by Richard Dawkins!!!I agree with you Mrs Rubbity!!!!!!!
I don't believe in the god myth myself ... which I guess makes it sadder to know that the idiots who are messing in and around Syria right now ... are doing so simply because they bloody well can! Perhaps having a god or satan to blame it on is an easier way to negotiate this type of heinous action ...... but I'm a realist. People can be evil without the influence of an unknown and unquantifiable unseen source.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Rhonda,
I'm not really, "stalking' you.. smiley: grin
Like yourself, I'm grateful for those those don't always believe everything told them by some religion...be it JW, Catholic, ...ah shit, name your poison. Lately in the US it's the Muslim that apparently want world control.
Hey, I think it's great that anyone finds a happy day yelling at God...He, needs yelling at for all the BS HE put upon humans because HE could...I'm the Almighty...do as I say or die:
In the US...it's like we really don't, although may still do, believe in GOD, but many still believe in Freedom from religious abuse and that's the battle many of us face.
Take any religion from any politiitcal system and they don't like it because they cannot control the masses that believe differently.
It's the same with us. When Ronnie decides it's time to shut down this site because it's getting intense with him too...so be it. Just proves the proint that "There is no separation of Chrurch and State." Love, Lin
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Sep 27 13 1:24 AM
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Lin ... we all follow one another in here, so go for it cute buns!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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It's been an interesting day for me after weeks of dealing with local politics...the situation has been resolved as I type.
I can yell, scream and do whatever...no matter the situation it takes action for helping make a change. Sometimes that means doing the yelling and not fret about how others like it or not.
Ah, shit, my day is not yet finished. It's about taking care of business because the Mormon's just showed up and we always enjoy visiting with those young men.
status offlinethehappygoat
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Rubadubdub wrote:
LeoStarzz, It sounds like you may be ready to read The God Delusion, by Richard Dawkins!!!Or perhaps God Hates You - Hate Him Back - Awesome Book!
If there is a God, I want nothing to do with him. What are the answers to all the terrible shit going on? No one knows. But at least now that we have escaped the org., we can, if we want, work to help make any little bit of the world we choose a little bit better before we die.
status offlinejulie seymour
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I dont even believe in him and i yelled and i often yell - if I'm right it wont matter and if he's right then he deserves yelling at for being able to watch such horrible things happening and doing nothing even though he could - seems to me yelling at him is a win win - and my own response to the terrible stuff is to try to live my life doing good and harming no-one - it's not much but its mine
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Valarie - Is that the actual name of the book because I couldn't surf for it without an author's name or ISBN #.
status offlineCee Cee
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There's an interesting presentation of this argument in the film "God on Trial" (Might be on Netflix.) where men in a Concentration Camp literally put God on trial. These men are being forced to live not knowing which of them will be "selected" for gassing tomorrow so it gets tough to watch, but if you can make it to the end you are not likely to forget it.
As for the to the "If I were God I'd do a better job" routine, have you ever noticed that what we think of a "better job" always involves putting oneself in the position of a Dictator? Give it some thought. Remember the names of Hitler; Stalin, and 100 other religious or political leaders throughout history who acted like God. These inevitably were people convinced they knew better than others and had the power to enforce those ideas. A pretty good deal for the Top Dog. The only problem was, if you weren't the guy playing God you were, in a word, screwed.
Freedom of choice is for all people good and not good. The question is always whether to choose freedom--and all the problems that comes with everyone having that right--or living under a totalitarian ruler where "troublemakers" are not tolerated.
Since I don't expect to be a dictator any time soon, I'm going to vote for the One who gave me the right to choose how to live (and risk the consequences) rather than living under another's demand for 'right' performance.
Cee Cee
status offlineJanets Dolls
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Cee Cee, whenI come to this site, if I see your name as having posted, I always check it out. You never disappoint. You are a wise and balanced woman. This post was no exception. You said it SO much better than I could have in my long winded way. Thank you. I appreciate your take on things.
Janet
status offlineCee Cee
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Thank you, Janet. I came back to this thread today expecting criticism.
My views frequently differ from those of others. Whenever I post views contrary to those more popular I do it anyway, in the full knowledge that somebody might be [OUCH!] offended, so it's REALLY nice to see your compliment. Thanks.
Hugs, Grandma Cee Cee
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Has anyone ever dealt with a true 'Narcissist' ....
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offlinebelladiane
Has anyone ever dealt with a true 'Narcissist' ....
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Sep 27 13 7:54 AM
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Just wondered if anyone here has had the misfortune of dealing with a true narcissist? I used to use that word so loosely until I met a textbook version of this personality disorder.
Oh, the stories I have to tell are unbelievable since it happens to be my very own mother in law. Its actual insanity but I want to see what you guys know about it before I indulge!
status offlinethehappygoat
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Hands down, my own mom is the Queen of the Narcissists.
Best thing I ever read (after Crisis of Conscience of course!) was the book Enough About You, Let's Talk About Me by Dr. Les Carter.
The worst thing about having a Narcissist in your life is that they cannot be treated. They have little interest in changing because they do not believe they have problems; it's always other people who have the problems.
The only thing one can do is learn how to deal with them without going out of your mind with anger and frustration.
Best of luck and bring on the crazy stories!
Valerie
status offlinebelladiane
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Hey Valerie, Long time no hear!!!
Anyway, got a few minutes so I wanted to just make a couple of comments here. Gosh, where do I begin...You know I lived in Florida but my hubby had work in New England however we weren't sure how long we were going to stay so we are at my mother in laws...it started as two weeks only but we are now in the 2nd month, but I am going back to Florida next week.
So to be quick but Ill be specific later, when I first got here (I am 47 with three grown, well behaved boys). Within the first day, it was obvious that in her mind and verbally, I couldn't cook clean, do laundry or raise children properly. The woman is 81 years old and is the most opinionated, obnoxious, self centered, lying, manipulating person I know. She has crossed so many boundaries I would even know where to begin, but I did write them down, it has been so bizarre that I had to write it down so I could remember why I would never, ever come back here.
But that's my beginning, when I get some alone time I will get you some details....oh its so good to know that someone else knows how crazy these people really are.
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Sep 28 13 2:23 PM
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Better get back to Florida before it get's too cold!! Nice to see you're still posting and very quickly adjusting to life outside of the org.
From this book, here are some common Narc. traits:
1. An inability to empathize
2. Manipulative or exploitive behavior
3. A sense of entitlement
4. An inability to receive direction
5. An insatiable need for control
6. A haughty or judgmental spirit
7. An unwillingness to acknowledge reality
8. An ability to create favorable public impressions
I cannot overestimate how great this book is.
Sorry I haven't been on the forum as much lately. I go in streaks. Now that summer is over, I will probably be back much more!
status offlineMystla
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My brother's wife. She has caused no end of grief to our family and there is no end in sight. smiley: frown
"The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago; the second best time is now"
-old Chinese proverb
status offlinewhytebyrd2
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The JW religion fosters and grooms narcissistic behavior. My daughter fits those traits to a tee.
1. An inability to empathize
Doesn't respond to heartfelt messages sent by her mom.
2. Manipulative or exploitive behavior
Used her family to get her baby gifts and then cut us all off after baby was born.
3. A sense of entitlement
(see #2)
4. An inability to receive direction
The society prevents any communication
5. An insatiable need for control
Don't know what's going on in her daily life so no comment there.
6. A haughty or judgmental spirit
She assumes I still believe but am only wanting to live an immoral life.
7. An unwillingness to acknowledge reality
Science is evil.
8. An ability to create favorable public impressions
By spreading gossip and lies.
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
t.s.eliot
status offlinebelladiane
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Sep 29 13 9:13 AM
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Okay,
when we first got here, she was just a peach. The very first morning we went grocery shopping together. That was the first time I got a dose of her craziness. As I put things in the cart, she rearranged it, everything, then as we were leaving the produce section, she says to me 'you know, everything you picked up was for you, you haven't mentioned one thing about Joe (her son), everything in this cart is for you' And I stopped, didn't really know what to say and thought, geez....its true, until I realized that we were IN THE PRODUCE VEGATABLE SECTION. After a couple of hours of thinking about how selfish I was, did I realize that Joe hates healthy food! That is why I hadn't put anything into the cart for him at that moment!
More to come....
status offlinecangie
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My ex "the Abusing Elder" was the biggest narcissist (with his mother being a close second) that I have ever known. He used to tell me that his name meant "God's Gift"...and then follow it with (in an entirely straight face) the comment that "he wasn't saying to whom or what" Vomiting Other words that would describe him were: self absorbed, selfish, spoiled, arrogant, but surprisingly very insecure. All the above descriptions of "narcissism" fit him to a tee, but especially numbers 6 and 8. He showed me the haughty and judgmental side, but people in the public and the congregation thought he was "Mr. Perfect." He bragged on himself so often that I wanted to remind him to leave some nice things for the rest of us to say about him. Laughing at you
status offlinebelladiane
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My mother in law told my husband that she was the closest thing to perfection that she knew. She has 'angels' all over her house, nic nacs of angels literally everywhere, I wondered what they hell that was when I first got here, now I know, she thinks she is one of Gods most perfect creations.
The second or so day I was here, we were finishing eating dinner in the kitchen and I was putting the dishes away, I was bent down a bit and she lifted up my shorts an made some gesture about how baggy my shorts were while she looked up my pants and grabbed my ass. My husband kinda freaked out and told her to keep her hands of my wifes ass!
And there is more...
give me some more time, I have so many more situation to share and so happy I can do it somewhere!
status offlineceej
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I don't think I've ever had to deal with one, but then again, I wouldn't give them the time of day. I don't deal well with people who are twats. Either confront them on how irritating they are or just cut them out of your life.
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I know ceej, Nobody comes here to visit her. She chases everybody away. I haven't even met 2 of my 3 sister in laws. The only sibling that comes here is one brother who only comes to get the free day old bread and other food that I believe she and her other son intercepts a food bank, I kept pondering over where all this free food is coming from...they have plenty of money. She brings home bread, bacon, chicken, giant bags of mixed salad...then one night I was helping put it all away and I saw something like 'food bank' on one of the boxes, I was like...'she isn't stealing this from homeless, hungry people, is she'?? This one brother in law also comes to get free pain pills that she dishes out to him when he does this whole limping, OMG my back hurts mommie thing. Its pathetic. He came by the other day but she had to run to the store.....and guess how he was walking...NORMAL!!
She secretly smokes cigarettes. We are occupying the two rooms upstairs....heat rises and SO DOES SMOKE. But she denies it. One day, she bangs on the wall to get me and I stood at the top of the stairs and she goes 'Diane, do you smell cigarette smoke...I walked into the house and it just hit me" I just burst out laughing, I said 'uh, Ive smelled cigarette smoke from the day I got here' So she said' I thought maybe you or Brando (my son) were smoking!' Yes, she turned it around and accused me and my son of smoking. Hello , Im not hard of smelling, she smokes every single morning and before bed at night. I told my son and he goes 'I know why she did that, I needed to use the downstairs shower and she wasn't expecting me to ask, when I went in, it was like a clam bake in there' So she was covering her lying tracts!
INSANTIY!!
status offlinebelladiane
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So a day or so later, my son, who came with us up here in New England (he was publically reproved and kicked to the curb by all his JW family and friends who are still in) . My son was doing some computer work for me to keep him busy and help generate income. He was sitting quietly in a separate living room and it was hot out, heat wave a few weeks ago. He had this box fan on him and he was just typing away minding his own business.
I come down into the kitchen later and there she stands in front of the sink 'Diane, Ive been thinking and thinking about this and the more I think about it the more upset I get' I was like 'whats wrong' So she goes on 'Brandon is sitting in that room and has that fan on and 'I' was feeling cold all day and I went up to him and asked him if he was warm and he said no, he was fine and I thought 'well, if he was fine, then why does he need that fan?' And I was so upset because I am not fat and he isn't fat so he should be cold too and shouldn't need that fan.'
Well I was dumb founded. What? So I said, 'well, maybe he was 'fine' because the fan was on him, did he leave the room and not turn off the fan?' So she says in a raised deeper tone 'NO that's not the point' So I said well if you feel he is wasting electricity, we are paying you' So gets get even louder, NO that's not the point!' So what the freakin point, as Im getting more and more upset at this nonsense....she says' if he was not hot, and he was feeling fine then he shouldn't have the fan on at all.
So I just simply walked away.
But wait, theres more....
status offlinebelladiane
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my mother in law has a septic problem that exists only in her mind, therefore we are not allowed to shower every day, we must sponge bath.
She started farting every time she was around me, she claims that she must be allergic to me since she never does that anywhere, ever. Only when Im around! Its pretty disgusting.
She lies constantly, I told her yesterday that since we were cooking out burgers and dogs and I had some macaroni I cooked the night before, tonight would be leftover night. She proceeded to tell us 'oh, I don't eat left overs, I just dont' This is after she has been eating leftovers a least three times a week since I got here.
Sitting the kitchen table, she puts her giant man like hand up to her nose and says 'ewe, my hand stinks...smell it' and shoves it into my face.
Kitchen again, and we were all there, she stand up and insists that I 'feel her ass to see how firm it is for an 81 year old' I refuse.
Sitting at the doctors office (yes, I didn't have a GP here so I went to hers with her and my down syndrome sister in law) So I said to her, 'I wonder how much weight I lost, I tried to use the bathroom scale in your bathroom but' and she breaks into my conversation and says 'but it doesn't go over 300 lbs???' And no, Im not huge but Im not tiny either...but really, how rude.
My son got horrible poison ivy from helping out in her yard. We actually had to take him to the hospital. So since then she keeps pulling up her shirt to show everyone her 'possible poison ivy'. Just a giant tummy full of wrinkles.
Great Grandsons birthday party was held here at her house. Everyone came, she went to the emergency room. Nothing really wrong, she just claimed to have a pain in the stomach. She didn't come back until after the party was over...the weird thing was that nobody was very concerned. I guess the are used to this kind of 'me me me' behavior.
I cooked chicken and sweet potatoes and was dishing it out for my husband, her son. So instead of just giving him his potato to do what he likes, I did it for him. She was standing at the entry way of the kitchen watching me. My husband was standing next to me and said 'oh, you mashed by potato and put butter in it for me, how sweet, that was soooo nice, thank you baby' So she freaked out and said 'Oh my God, you act like she is something wonderful just for mashing your potatoes, you never thanked me for cooking potatoes or anything for you! So I said to her, Ma, that is my husband and your son, didn't your husband ever compliment you. She said 'NO' Which is a lie, he was the sweetest man and everybody always talked about how kind and gentle he was.
But wait, there is more...I know, really there is....
status offlineHeliaphora
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Bella can I ask a sort of invasive question? Has she always been like this? I read what you wrote about her and then you said her age and it started to make me think along the lines of dementia. She seems to have some problems with relating to reality. The inappropriate grabbing and some of the bizarre comments reminds me of being back as a med tech in a dementia unit. Or she just is that....ummm difficult to put it as politely as possible.
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well, I have only met her twice...so this is new to me. But according to my husband and her absent family...it seems as she has always been this deniable and obnoxious. But since Ive been here I did so much research on Narcissist people and I couldn't believe how identical she matched the check off list. She remembers everything. She was cutting into one of her three day old cakes she gets for free and dishing a piece to her daughter and she said to me 'Diane, I think Ill freeze this and give it to you for your birthday' So I said, gee thanks for the gesture...and she says, well at least I remembered your birthday.
She spends all of her time talking about herself, her health, how great of a mother she was, how great of a cook she is...had me refold sheets to show me 'the right' way to fold clothes. I don't think Ive ever had a compliment since Ive been here. When I mentioned about my two sisters that have cancer or talk about anything that is not her, she just sit there, no reaction , no compassion but does manage to turn it back into something about her. So I don't bother indulging her anymore....and with a narcissist you must be very careful not to get too close or give to much information. She is the biggest gossip I know and then I see how she is with the same people she just slammed and she is sweet as a kitten. So Im pretty confident she has trashed me and mine behind my back.
But less then a week and I am back home. She also thinks she can predict things...like I have a good feeling etc...she has witchcraft books in her library along with tons of books on living beyond normal years and life secrets...creepy things
'
status offlinecangie
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"had me refold sheets to show me 'the right' way to fold clothes"
My MIL was a control freak in addition to being a narcissist. Her way was the only way to do things---100% of the time. She once announced that I must have been born a "lefty" and my parents forced me to live as a "righty" based entirely on the fact that I put the dish draining rack on the left side of the sink ( simply because there was too little space on the right side of the counter to hold it). My ex was so emotionally glued to her that he used to tell her the plans that "we" had before discussing them with me, and I would then find out what "I" was going to be doing when she decided I should know it.
smack head on desk
status offlineHeliaphora
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Sep 30 13 4:17 PM
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Ahhh well too bad it's just a rotten personality she has. Never had to deal with a true narcissist myself. My brother has a lot of the traits so wasn't very pleasant to live with. He's "pretty smart" and a "really humble person". Que Amish Paradise by Weird Al Yankavich. He married someone who was even more rigid and "perfect" then him.
status offlinebelladiane
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I asked mommie dearest if she liked mushrooms...she says ' no, yuk...I hate mushrooms' So I said, thats too bad because I can make some great stuffed mushrooms. So she says 'ya know who makes the most delicious stuffed mushrooms? Cindy (my sister in law which is another true narcissist trait as they will always put you in your place by telling you that someone has done something, anything, better then you at that moment). So I say to her 'How do you know? I thought you hated mushrooms??? So my husband laughs out loud and yells 'good one' and she stumbles over her words, mumbling something about how everyone always eats them and when she makes them they are all gone.
I was babysitting my husbands grandson who is 7 years old...now yes, he is mine too but we just met. Anyway, he said a swear word and so grammie dearest heard him, brings him into the computer room and proceeds to punish him giving him 1 day of punishment for each year of his life....(I believe it suppose to be 1 minute) So this poor kid is now punished for 7 days until everybody got up in arms, then she back peddles telling everyone she didn't intend on enforcing the full week.
She wants my son to cut down some trees. She systematically went through the entire yard to show him what trees she wants cut. So later that day, before he was covered in poison ivy, he is working his heart out cutting trees and I was on the deck, she comes out and says 'I didn't want him to cut that tree down' I was like, 'what'! So we walked over to him and I told him to stop and she said, I didn't want you to cut down that tree. So he looks up at her and in his calm and meek voice says, we went through each tree in this yard and you told me to cut this down. So I was like, well, its not all the way down...maybe if you stop now it will live.
So a few minutes later she says to me 'I meant that I didn't want him to cut that tree down.....alone' I meant he needed some help. What??? No that's not what you said.
Here is the thing...Narcissists will never admit they were wrong, EVER. They back peddle, they down right lie but never apologize and never admit wrong doing. Its really amazing to watch one act out.
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I have a relative who I've always suspected of being a narcissist. To sum up - she is pathologically selfish and lazy unless it is self serving. Which is why we have had to do the majority of caring for her son.
This idea of "I'm offended". Well I've got news for you. I'm offended by a lot of things too. Where do I send my list? Life is offensive. You know what I mean? Just get in touch with your outer adult. And grow up. And move on. Reasonable people don't write letters because... A: They have lives and B, they understand it's just TV. C: If they see something they don't like, something they do like might be on later. I've seen many comics I've hated. I've seen many shows that have offended me. I've never written a letter. I just go about my life.
Bill Hicks 1993
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Coming out of the gay( and atheist) closet
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offlineKefka6
Coming out of the gay( and atheist) closet
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Dec 28 13 9:17 AM
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How funimage
So I was raised a jw, my entire extended family are all jw's and I think I'm the only one who actually plans to leave. Anyway I'm currently 20 yrs old and just waiting for the right moment to Dissasociate myself because I don't think I can take going to the meetings for long.
Anyway me wanting to leave the jw's started when I was 14 that's when I realized that I was more into guys than girls. This was actually really difficult I was so depressed I thought I had the bad luck to be the only gay jw out there.sometimes I'd think about dating girls but I couldn't live with myself knowing I was lying to them. So then the only choice was to be single and lonely for the rest of my life, but that wasn't going to happen. So at 15 I had the idea that I was going to leave.
Unfortunately I got baptized at 17 a few months after my grandpa died because of grief and the small hope that I might see him again. It wasn't till a few months after that I realized what a stupid mistake I made. Now if I left my family would have to shun me and I don't think I could deal with that especially since they won't approve of anyone I may want to date.
This was also the time that I started looking at other religions but none of them really satisfied me, they all seemed like mythology instead of the truth. Then I started looking up atheism and things that had to do with science and evolution and it made more sense than religion so it was there that I became an atheist
And it's really hard to be an atheist and still go to the meetings there are times where I just want to stand up and scream that they're wrong, whether they're saying that violent video games cause school shootings or when the brother on the platform gets condescending when topics that contradict the watchtower come up. It just baffles me that with all of the information out there that contradicts their beliefs almost none of the jw's. That I know question what is being thought I just don't get it anymore
There are small mercies though mom who I currently live with works on Sunday and since we only have one car I can miss that meeting every week with a good excuse.
So this is my condensed story I think I'll reveal more about myself the more I post here.
status offlineVancity
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Dec 28 13 2:26 PM
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Hey Kefka6,
Firstly, it's great that you've figured this much out at such a young age, it takes courage to not simply accept what you are told by authority figures and learn on your own. Secondly, I couldn't imagine going to meetings while knowing that religion is bullshit, that would be so frustrating it would make me sick. Most people cannot figure out what you have because they don't bother to do they kind of research you have, which in this time of the information age is really a shame. I firmly believe all religion will be a relic of the past in the not so distant future because, unlike past generations, information is so readily available to anyone who wants it.
Good luck in the next chapter of your life.
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Kefka-
So good seeing you continue posting.
I'm not for supporting the gay/lesbion society that wants my money... I am however for not having the hate of old. I'm also out spoken for how religion protects Pedophiles. And the WTBTS does that too.
We have gay friends that are old...yes, they are old. One was broken in by his uncle at the age of 6...that's a pedophile. The other was engaged to be married the traditional way and finally decided that wasn't for him.
The one thing we can appreciate and after 20 years, love each other, they would never harm a child. We would trust those men around our grandchildren more then we would the religious idiots that hide their deed while preaching hatred towards those that live differently.
It's been an adventure learning from those that spoke out [JW's] and will always appreciate what they did for helping others.
Being gay and atheist, you have so much opportunity for educating others...don't piss away your youth. Love, Lin and John
status offlineKBG
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Dec 29 13 7:11 AM
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Kefka6,
I always admire people who know themselves. Its easy to get trapped in what you are expected to be, and not be who you are. Good for you. I know your road will not be easy, true integrity never is. Cultivate support networks outside of JWs. No man is an island.
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Thanks for posting your story Kefka6. I am 19 and can relate to figuring out that the JW's are all blinded by false teachings of cult leaders. I figured it all out for myself when I was about 14-15. Although I cannot relate to the other parts of your story, just know that all of us are here for you and are ready to listen to whatever you wanna say! :)
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Hello again Kefka ...... and thanks for adding a little more about yourself.
Walking out of the closet is a wondrous and very courageous thing to do ... even if you've not told your family and others yet. It's great you've worked out how you really feel now ... rather than go along with what everyone else thinks is right for you ....... good for you mate!!! Stand tall ... be proud!
As for the meeting thing ... you will know when the time is right to leave. In the meantime ... to quell the sickness that surely must rise to your throat during those 'lovely' (said very firmly with tongue in cheek) meetings ........ take notes of the anomalies. If nothing else ... the writing of notes will stop you from being sick. Or falling asleep. Or both!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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As one who left an extended family of JW's I believe understand your situation. Trust in yourself, trust is what you hold to be true. "Damn the torpedo's, full speed ahead" when they and others launch them at you. You are young, full of energy and can do it.
I was tossed out with half a weeks paycheck in 1970 and a couple of good friends where I could live for awhile. Taught me alot and made me stronger. Hopefully you can leave under better circumstances.
The world is a big beautiful place, go explore it and have fun learning from the good and the bad.
Hope you can click on my picture and read it, it is one of life's truths.
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Hello and welcome to the board. It's nice to meet you. I wish you well. You are young and have your whole life ahead of you. You'll make it!
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Welcome Kefka, Tnt and Divertido! I look forward to getting to know each one of you! It is Awesome to see new ones on the forum.
Coming out of the JW closet, whether gay or atheist or neither, is a tremendous accomplishment! Celebrate your life of freedom from mind control!
What is needed for dramatic change is an accumulation of acts, adding, adding to, adding more, continuing. We know that it does not take everyone on Earth to bring justice and peace, but only a small, determined group who will not give up during the first, second, or hundredth gale.
One of the most calming and powerful actions you can do to intervene in a stormy world is to stand up and show your soul. Soul on deck shines like gold in dark times. The light of the soul throws sparks, can send up flares, builds signal fires, causes proper matters to catch fire. To display the lantern of soul in shadowy times like these – to be fierce and to show mercy toward others; both are acts of immense bravery and greatest necessity.
Struggling souls catch light from other souls who are fully lit and willing to show it. If you would help to calm the tumult, this is one of the strongest things you can do.
Excerpts from, You Were Made for This, by Clarissa Pinkola Estes, Ph.D
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Hi there Divertido .......................... I left home for similar reasons and didn't have much to go with either. It's makes us more resilient when we have to plan more carefully doesn't it!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Jan 30 14 8:45 PM
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I was tossed out for smoking and not going to meetings and mmmmm other things.
Best thing that happened to me.
Good luck
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Good on ya Kefka for being honest with all...including yourself.
Regards Paul (MDA - Mentally diseased apostate)!
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
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Attending the Unitarian Universalist Congregation
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offlinerawe
Attending the Unitarian Universalist Congregation
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Dec 12 13 9:51 PM
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Hi Everyone,
Several months back I began feeling a need to find some form of formal religious connection. The big problem with that of course is I am an atheist and for the most part Wendy (my wife) would identify as such too. My oldest daughter sometimes says she believes in God, but probably is more in the agnostic category. My second two would definitely call themselves unbelievers and my youngest is just 10.
My family has been wonderfully supportive of my somewhat odd connection to things related to faith. Nonetheless, I don't want to do something that would cause any to be uncomfortable. So... we've now gone a few times to VUU here in Chandler. The advantage of UU for folks like me is they embrace all forms of belief or non-belief. The majority identify as humanists, 13% as theists and in this particular group nearly 1/2 as atheists.
So far it has just been myself, Wendy and our youngest who have attended. We've gone to about 4 services so far. Last Sunday my youngest was not feeling well so I went alone. I was able to stay for a bit afterwards and chat with a member of the choir who had been a JW for 50 years! He was so funny. He said, "as a JW I was promised life in paradise, so I was good. At UU I was not promised anything, so now I'm good for nothing!" :)
Compared to the Kingdom Hall, a few things stand out. First is no Bibles and very little direct mention of God. Second is the amount of singing, both by the choir and the congregation. If feels like about 60% of the 1:15 service is dedicated to song. A collection plate was passed around. It was large gold coloured plate/bowl -- whoops, forgot about that! But no one seemed to mind that we just passed it on, without putting something in.
After about 15 minutes of service, they invited all the children up front. Then they gave them a 8-10 minute lesson while we listened in, much like a classroom setting with the children being asked questions and answering back. This was followed by the "bridge of love", wherein the congregation members from opposite aisles raise and hold holds that then allow the children to run down under. Apparently from there the children go to Sunday school, however we so far have kept our 10 year old with us. It felt a bit odd and uncomfortable to do this bit at first, but I think it is an interesting idea. I have often reflected on the fact that the Kingdom Hall experience is not very engaging even for adults, let alone children -- but they are expected to love it, and say so -- so wind up being forced into a sort of dishonesty from young age. Yet at other churches, programs are actually designed for children -- imagine that!
Both as you enter and leave the service, you walk past a number of volunteer tables that have been setup. Wendy stopped and picked up a couple items from the "giving tree", so now we'll need to buy two Christmas gifts for children who would otherwise not get such things.
Both Wendy and I have googled for information critical of the UU faith. Mostly what we've found and it makes sense, is the faith winds up being so widely embracing of people and ideas it winds up being quite vague. That the only unity seems to tied to a group of people that don't fit in elsewhere. Theological objections are what one would expect too -- the group are not Christians, even though they talk about Jesus. By rejecting the idea of original sin, the focus shifts to internal worth and goodness of individuals. While that may be preferred it could be little more than creating an idol of self. So far... this last objection, seems tempered by a message of building self-worth by helping others. That is okay by me.
In any regards, my plan is to take is slowly, hang out for at least one year doing nothing more the observing how things go. Keeping an eye open for anything that smells cultist or money-grubbing.
Cheers,
-Randy
Last Edited By: rawe Dec 12 13 10:24 PM. Edited 3 times.
status offlineLocutus
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Hi Randy,
i'm processing this...
Will report my opinions upon review. My first inclination is to view the UU as a tax haven/holding property business. Of course I'm just a cynical atheist.
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It sounds nice to me, a place for people to connect to each other, regardless of belief or non belief.
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Hi Locutus,
Your post promoted me to look up cynic on Wikipedia. I knew it was a school of Greek philosophy, that today has become associated with a sort of automatic distrust. And that is it, right? We know motives are not always so good or what people claim they are. Yet, having been burned by JWs we need to be careful not to become too cynical.
I will say, it is interesting to sit in a religious service and have the preacher give a sermon wherein I am say, yeah, I agree with that, or I see his point, even though I feel not exactly the same way. But so far, none of the this-is-just-crazy. Reverend (yes, that the term they use) Andy talked to Wendy and me briefly after the service. He was trained in a traditional Christian seminary and was either a Baptist or Pentecostal Preacher. However, he himself started to have doubts about God's existence and said reading Richard Dawkin's The God Delusion was a turning point for him. After that he found his way into the UU group.
Cheers,
-Randy
status offlineSailAway
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Hi Randy, I was glad to see your post. I checked out the UU church about a year after I left the JWs. I found the climate to be highly political, with members vying to get me to side with them on various topics regarding running the church, and this was at a welcoming picnic! It wasn't a good fit for me, but I hope you are finding that community of faith you have been searching for. They do seem to be very transparent about finances and how they support their paid clergy and other initiatives. One is required to pledge a contribution in order to become a voting member. The UU church in my town has an informative website with an on-line newsletter and calendar of activities.
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Hi SailAway,
I live in Arizona, where conservatives & Republicans tend to be in the majority. In contrast it appears the UU folks are more on the Liberal Progressive side politically. And politically I'm all over the map. I'm with Libertarians in terms of foreign policy and tend to think the USA should not involve themselves in conflicts in other countries. I'm with Democrats in terms of many social issues like gay marriage and abortion rights. Yet, I don't think government in general should spend more money than it takes in in revenue and that well-regulated free market capitalism is generally a good thing, even when some businesses over time are no longer viable and must scale down or come to an end. And of course I strongly believe in rights to free speech, having a free press, freedom of religion (inclusive of freedom from religion), the right to vote, etc -- i.e. the sorts of things one finds in the constitutions of Canada and the USA.
But... while I don't mind saying what my political views are, I generally shy away from intense arguments about them. Light banter, no problem, but convince me of this, ask me to defend that, I am not looking for that. Mostly, because I feel fairly uninformed and ignorant on these issues most of the time. What I think I know reasonable well (JW stuff, software engineering and some science) absorbs most of my mental energy. So... yes, I'm worried about. So far, not too much has come up in that regard. They did mention that after the service they were going to have a presentation on how to sign up for health insurance at healthcare.gov for those that were interested.
Cheers,
-Randy
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Hi again Randy, I guess I wasn't clear enough that church politics was an issue for me. In JW Land the rank and file have no say or even knowledge about decision making within the congregation. Not so in the UU church it seems!
Last Edited By: SailAway Dec 14 13 7:17 AM. Edited 1 times.
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Hi SailAway,
Oh, internal politics... hmm.. nothing so far, but of course I'm very new to it. I don't think I would be that interested in that bit either, so hopefully won't run into to much lobbying by members.
Cheers,
-Randy
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Just a head's up from my experience, and wishing you the best!
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I LOVE your attitude Randy....you always 'boldly go' lol!! I found this interesting.....
That the only unity seems to tied to a group of people that don't fit in elsewhere
That is imo a very astute observation......seems to me that there will always be someone looking to 'fill' an empty slot.........not that that is of itself negative, but I would still wonder if the organisers of the 'one fits all' approach have truly altruistic intentions....so I would like to know who instigated this 'congregation' and what is their story??
Love to you and Wendy
Sam xxx
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
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Hi Randy,
I found UUs 3 about years after leaving JWs. For me, the key to difference with UUs is what you believe or don't believe about the supernatural is of secondary importance. How you treat other and the world around you is primary. I like that.
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Randy, It's always good hearing from youBeating heart
I'll do my research too as to this group you speak of.
Ya' know my mantra: "There is no separation of Church and State." "Sooner or later when you lay with the Devil, you will fuck."
Enjoy the adventure and remember to just sometimes take a break from the studies and just have fun with those beautiful children that don't need a lot of stress from the adults.
Chat later, Lin
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Perhaps it's not religion you're seeking Randy .... but the association with people who have a similar outlook in life. Not sure if you get what my Aussie brain is trying to say ... but ...
You've come from a very authoritarian 'do as you're told or you'll die' type of religious lifestyle. A religious lifestyle where the family unit is held tightly together by even tighter constraints ... with people looking over your shoulder and under your armpits 24/7. Your latest church adventure ... is totally and utterly different to what you're used to. It seems to be charismatic ... friendly ... and non-judgmental. Given you're a rather astute kind of fella .... I dare say this is more like an experiment of experience ... rather than a search for a new religion to follow.
It's not my cup of tea at all ... not even remotely ... but you do like this 'where angels fear to tread ... there goes Randy' type of journey! Have fun ...
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Hey Randy, just saw this and thought I'd pipe in. I haven't gone to a Unitarian service but thought about it many times. I might still go one of these days.
I have met Unitarians and the things your described are pretty much what I got from talking to these folks.
I think I told you but if not, I decided in the end not to move down to Phoenix. Not getting to be there and spend some time with you and Wendy and your kids is certainly a part of that decision I will miss. I would have attended the Unitarian church with you!
I have a wonderful little 90+ year old aunt up in Prescott Valley who almost convinced me to check into the Unity church (and I may still.........). She is the only one of my dad's family who never bought into the JW's. From what I've read about Unity it is yet another 19th/20th century religion but it is much more aligned with my thoughts on things although belief in god has definitely taken a serious beating lately. Ha! Actually it would probably be my belief in MYSELF that has taken the beating because that is pretty much where I finally figured out that god resided. I'm going to have to kick my own ass a bit more if I want 'god' to get busy doing good things I guess LOL!
Next time I get down there I will call you and hopefully we can all get together.
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
t.s.eliot
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Hi Randy, I'm glad you posted this. I myself have had a bit of a desire to hang out/talk with people who have the same viewpoint as I do. I tried the westside UU church out here a few years ago. They hold a logic/reason morality of atheism class before the service and the one I attended I was in a room with a bunch of old men and arrogance stifled the air. Then the service; they had some visiting folk singers and from there the entire service was centered around bashing god and bashing Christianity.
So I get the feeling that like any other religion different congregations will have their own social clique and congregants will form a gathering of like minds and beliefs. This one just happens to possibly be made up of people who express hatred for others beliefs, and me being a deist, I don't think I will fit in.
But that was several years ago, maybe I didn't give it enough visits, and I think you just encouraged me to give it another go, never hurts to make more friends.
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I'll be going to a meeting held at the library for people to come in and talk about current events, Jan. 31. That sounds like something I'd like. It's not spiritual at all, of course, but sounds like it's up my alley. Will let you all know how that goes. A chance to meet new people and socialize a bit.
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Cacky wrote:
I'll be going to a meeting held at the library for people to come in and talk about current events, Jan. 31. That sounds like something I'd like. It's not spiritual at all, of course, but sounds like it's up my alley. Will let you all know how that goes. A chance to meet new people and socialize a bit.Let me know if they are able to keep politics out of it:)
status offlineCacky
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I expect we will discuss politics. Especially Chris Christy! lol
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New Member...Ex Elder
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offlineDarrin Hart
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Oct 28 13 12:04 PM
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Hello gang,
Nice to see a great collection of people that have broken free of Jehovah's Witnesses.
I left the 'organization' about 5 years ago. After over 10 years as an elder, and being used (read abused) at the Circuit and District level, as well as KM School, Pioneer, etc......I realized I needed to proved this was the 'truth' to myself. After jumping on airplanes, visiting grave sites, examining public records in several states, visiting Brooklyn Bethel...... I was left shell shocked and deeply upset. It was obvious, from must a little effort, that I was part of something I now consider a cult.
Over the past 5 years I've really been focusing on the positive and how I can help others break free from this insidious organization. My goal wasn't just to complain or be bitter, but help others get their thinking straight as to WHY they should leave and also BE HAPPY! It's still a work in progress, but I'm very happy to be focusing on the positive.
I'm new to the site and hope to contribute and learn from all the other great people here!
DH
leavingjehovahswitnesses.org
status offlinebelladiane
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Oct 28 13 2:40 PM
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Well welcome Darrin....nice to have you here and especially nice since you have so much information and we have so many questions that only someone like you....really on the inside would have the ability to answer.
But I will have to make a list and them post it for you....but nice to meet you and hope to see you here often!
status offlineSailAway
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Oct 28 13 4:05 PM
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image to the forum, Darrin! I checked out your website, it sounds like you were in for about 40 years, as was I. I have been out just over 2 years now, and yes, it is wonderful to be happy and free from cult mind control. No need to be bitter, that doesn't get any of us anywhere!
I'm always interested to find out what another ex-JW's tipping point was. For me, I was sitting at a Service Meeting, and I just couldn't bear to hear them say one more time that my kids were going to die at Armageddon. I know they didn't say that specifically, but that is what my brain heard when they were droning on about doing more in the ministry, because so many people were going to die. My son is DF'd and my daughter DA'd by her actions. My husband faded over 30 years ago, but he didn't learn TTATT until I did.
It sounds like you did some real-time detective work before you left! I didn't start my research until months after I decided I was no longer going to be a witness. We all have our own path and story to tell! Did you lose any family members to the cult? If so, I'm so sorry. I was the last in my immediate family to leave, so I am so lucky! Only my aged JW in-laws remain on the inside.
Looking forward to getting to know you better, hearing some of your stories and some of your insight from your years inside and outside the organization. This is a cozy corner of the ex-JW Internet community. Stick around, you will soon feel at home here!
What is needed for dramatic change is an accumulation of acts, adding, adding to, adding more, continuing. We know that it does not take everyone on Earth to bring justice and peace, but only a small, determined group who will not give up during the first, second, or hundredth gale.
One of the most calming and powerful actions you can do to intervene in a stormy world is to stand up and show your soul. Soul on deck shines like gold in dark times. The light of the soul throws sparks, can send up flares, builds signal fires, causes proper matters to catch fire. To display the lantern of soul in shadowy times like these – to be fierce and to show mercy toward others; both are acts of immense bravery and greatest necessity.
Struggling souls catch light from other souls who are fully lit and willing to show it. If you would help to calm the tumult, this is one of the strongest things you can do.
Excerpts from, You Were Made for This, by Clarissa Pinkola Estes, Ph.D
status offlinealexia
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Welcome!
status offlineJames the brain
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Welcome, Mister Hart! Glad to have you aboard!
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Welcome Darrin.
I too am an ex elder 3years+ out of the WBT$.
I am now living my life and the WBT$ can take a running jump.
Glad to have you on board.
To damage the WBT$'s reputation and thereby hurt them financially, I think the best road is to get information about the truth about them out there. Unwitnessing.
Regards Paul (MDA - Mentally diseased apostate)!
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
status offlinecalminthestorm
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hello
It's great to have you on the board. I look forward to your posts. The fact that you researched so much before leaving is awesome. People would save a lot of heartache is they did that before joining if they are adults. Those of us who were born in just were really unlucky!
Last Edited By: calminthestorm Oct 29 13 5:59 AM. Edited 2 times.
status offlineThe Villain
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Sup.
Welcome to the board.
When I first got out of the JWs I actually hopped a plane and went and saw Russell's Pyramid myself. (thats not me in the video)
Then I went on a research binge and investigated Judge Rutherford:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Franklin_Rutherford
Once I learned that I went out and researched Beth Sharim.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beth_Sarim
Thats when I realized: This is a business. A business that cost me my family, every friend Id ever grown up with, and any social roots. This business cost me my entire life, my inheritance, my future.
I never regretted leaving. Not even for a second.
V
status offlinechas
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Welcome DH, glad to have you on the board. Looking forward to hearing more from you in the future. I too share your goal of helping others stuck in the WTS and find in it some consolation for the time and energy wasted with JWs in the past.
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Love the video, Villain. It's sincere and from your heart! image
What is needed for dramatic change is an accumulation of acts, adding, adding to, adding more, continuing. We know that it does not take everyone on Earth to bring justice and peace, but only a small, determined group who will not give up during the first, second, or hundredth gale.
One of the most calming and powerful actions you can do to intervene in a stormy world is to stand up and show your soul. Soul on deck shines like gold in dark times. The light of the soul throws sparks, can send up flares, builds signal fires, causes proper matters to catch fire. To display the lantern of soul in shadowy times like these – to be fierce and to show mercy toward others; both are acts of immense bravery and greatest necessity.
Struggling souls catch light from other souls who are fully lit and willing to show it. If you would help to calm the tumult, this is one of the strongest things you can do.
Excerpts from, You Were Made for This, by Clarissa Pinkola Estes, Ph.D
status offlineDarrin Hart
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Oct 29 13 5:10 PM
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Thank you to everyone!! What a great bunch of people......I hope to learn and share as much as possible!!
DH
leavingjehovahswitnesses.org
status offlinewhytebyrd2
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Hi Darrin!
Welcome
I commented on another thread that you also commented on and want you to know that I'm glad you're here.
I left the religion after 40 years in (born in) and my reasons initially were that I finally saw the governing body as a bunch of men. There was of course more but I didn't get on an exJW website for another 3 years. That just validated what I'd already come to believe about the Watchtower corporation(s).
Glad you're here. It's members like you that saw so much and can validate what the rank and file JW experienced and or suspected from watching others and their experiences.
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
t.s.eliot
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Hello and welcome to the board, Darrin. We like having ex-elders and pioneers and the like on the board. We get more inside information. Do you want to explain if the rest of your family, if you're married, came out with you? Some on here have really lost a lot after discovering the TATT (the truth about "the truth"). It's nice to meet you and nice to have a new member.
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Hi Darrin and welcome to the land of the survivors smiley: smile
We have a few elders here (ex), so I know you won't feel alone, and you may even feel the need to get together and work out a shepherding rota for us lowly ex's smiley: tongue
I always feel a great euphoria when I meet those who I once considered the 'creme de la creme' of the society...........cos if those who had staked their whole life on the religion, and who gave so much, can be honest enough to face up to the real truth about 'the truth' - there is hope for all those still brainwashed!!
Good to have you here, and look forward to hearing more from you!!
Sam x
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
status offlinerawe
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Oct 30 13 6:58 PM
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Hi Darrin,
Welcome to the forum. There are several forums for Ex-Witnesses around the internet. Some like jehovahs-witness.net (JWN) get a fair bit of daily traffic. Although I'm a bit of a sporadic poster depending on what else is going on in my life, I often find myself back here. It is populated by a great group of people who are truly focused on recovery from the faith, regardless of where that may lead in terms of specific new beliefs.
For whatever good aspects there may have been in our lives as Witnesses the one basic truth remains and an awful truth it was -- namely, that what Jehovah's Witnesses teach as absolute doctrine is simply not true and on many different fronts, from basics of Christianity, to science, to archaeology, to end-time pronouncements and even their own history.
Cheers,
-Randy
Last Edited By: rawe Oct 30 13 7:01 PM. Edited 2 times.
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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G'day Darrin and welcome to our humble abode ............................ it's always great fun to have new people to play with! You'll have heaps of reading to do now you're in here ... so grab yourself a cuppa and off you go!!!
Feel free to ask as many questions as you want or to contribute ................... there's no obligation and there's no rush.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Disowned and abandoned by my entire JW family
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offlineEldersSon
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Dec 24 13 8:50 AM
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I was brought up a JW, my father was a well known elder he knew Knorr, I met him before, he did many conventions back in the day when JW's would rent out huge stadiums. I hated it, I always knew something was wrong with it; Eph 1:4 "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love." When my father died in 2009, I dropped everything in my life to care for my aging mother ( also a JW). during those years my 3 brothers, all JW's hated me for this even more than before, they foolishly thought I was going to convert my Mother. I say foolish because no one converts anyone as stated in Eph. 4:1, she was never one of Gods from the beginning. And my brothers were always lying to me...remember JW's are told it's ok to lie to people they feel not worthy of truth:
( QUALIFIED TO BE MINISTERS (1967 edition), p. 197. ) The Society actually teaches Jehovah's Witnesses to cover-up or lie about certain facts. They call this tactic -- Theocratic War Strategy. The Watchtower instructs Jehovah's Witnesses that, "As a soldier of Christ he is in theocratic warfare and he must exercise added caution when dealing with God's foes. Thus the Scriptures show that for the purpose of protecting the interest of God's cause, it is proper to hide the truth from God's enemies." ( WATCHTOWER, June 1, 1960, p. 352.)We find the Watch Tower Society practising their belief that it is proper to deceive people. But they say this really isn’t lying. Why? Because the Society has a different Definition of lying than most of us. In their book “AID TO BIBLE UNDERSTANDING” under the word “LIE” we read:“Lying generally involves saying something false to a person who is ENTITLED to know the truth ...”. “While malicious lying is definitely condemned in the Bible, this does not mean that a person is under obligation to divulge truthful information to people who are not entitled to it”.
My oldest brother who is an elder has told me in front of people,"don't use Bible scriptures on me" when I have confronted him with Bible quotes on his actions when I catch him acting very un-Christain like! Imagine someone who claims to teach the Bible not wanting the Bible being used!!! lol...funny and scary at the same time..very creepy. Him the one who followed in my fathers footsteps knows nothing of the Bible, only what the organization has told him to know... I out-scripture him every time! Of all the cult religions..catholic, LDS, 7th Day Adventist//etc. JW's are the least knowledgeable! One day I had to go out of town, and while I was away my elder brother drove up from Florida and took mom away...when I returned she was gone...June 3rd 2013. I haven't seen her since. Since then it's been my brothers attacking me and making my life miserable, they have all disowned me they want nothing to do with me, I basically have no family now, since everyone in my family is a JW. So now I am alone... no family...knowing I am hated by them last text from my brother said he is hoping I will be on the street living in the gutter or under some bridge dying...it does get me down every now and then to think my own flesh and blood can say such horrible things to me. Having never had holidays growing up, I never really celebrated Christmas etc. And even though I know Christmas is un-scriptural (Jesus wasn't even born in December!) it does sometimes get me down knowing I have no one to turn to. my wife who is from the Czech Republic is in contact with her mother all the time, and they have accepted me as their own son. But I still get lonely most of my friends have moved away, and during that time of caring for my mother I lost touch with many of them and didn't have time to make new friends..so I am alone in this world it seems. I am a Reformed Christian, and there are no Reformed Churches around that I can find..I reject today's evangelical false teaching of the rapture and the phony heretical "seed" teachings...and all the seeker friendly churches with all their false doctrines. I study all religions ( the only way to fight evil is to know evil). So anyways it did help to get this off my shoulders.
status offlinecangie
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Welcome Son, to your new home and your new family, if you wish to join us. Most of us here have lost family to the WBTS, and we have discovered that family are now those people in your life who truly love and care for you, even if they are not related to you. You get to choose your new family based on shared values, and not just on the fact that you show up several times a week in the same place, and mindlessly repeat the same nonsense together.
There is always room in this forum for new ones, and they join us every day. So many are leaving the organization because like you, they see the hypocrisy in the JW's behavior and teachings, and that they don't even follow the rules that they claim are so holy from the bible. Please feel free to stick around and post, ask questions, jump in wherever you like...and make new friends. We already consider you one of us. Pals Group hug Oh, and "Merry Christmas" Rudolf lights
Last Edited By: cangie Dec 24 13 10:21 AM. Edited 1 times.
status offlineEldersSon
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Thanks...I just needed to get it off my mind, ya know...as for information on JW's.. i am probably one of the best for answers. I study all religions from Bahi to Zoroastrianism, lol all cults of course...anyways it's the holidays and I was feeling down, I am very logical and yet I am still amazed my family would just drop me like that. The pure hatred that comes from them is again astonishing to me...before my mother left we had always been close regardless, even my dad before he passed in 2009 had rekindled our relationship, to the point I took him and my mother to Florida for 2 great vacations, just well like I stated when my dad passed...it's been downhill ever since, to have those closest to me turn away in a blink is still hard to accept. I like people, I like to talk to anyone I meet...indeed I am that guy who says "Hi" to people I see walking down the street, I open doors for complete strangers, I hold them for women, I open the car door for my wife and close it for her, and when we get to our destination, I get out first, and walk to her side to open her door...if I see someone with a flat tire I stop and introduce myself ( I used to not have to do that, but todays world is rather scary for most and I understand this) and ask if they need help! When I walk down the street or walking into the grocery store, if I see some trash on the ground I pick it up and throw it away...I dunno maybe I care too much.. or maybe others care too little. The other day a girl was walking down the stairs where I was visiting, she was carrying a vacuum I offered to carry it to her car, she was very grateful and somewhat shocked someone would actually help her ( I get those looks all the time).. lol I do prattle on...anyways MERRY CHRISTMAS to you and everyone else! (Yes I insist on greeting everyone with a Merry Christmas, not "holidays"..that goes for all holidays!
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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helloRudolf lights
While I would doubt you have all the answers to any religion...I'm so happy you found us on one of those days when life seems so lonely...as many can experience
Despite the lonliness any of us might experience at times - I'm grateful you shared your story with us at this time because it helps many others too.
If you've done research prior to posting, you already know that many others have gone the route before and they share here too. It's a wonderful community for sharing.
As the expression goes, " Keep coming back." LIN
status offlineEldersSon
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Linda wrote:
imageimage
While I would doubt you have all the answers to any religion...I'm so happy you found us on one of those days when life seems so lonely...as many can experience
Despite the lonliness any of us might experience at times - I'm grateful you shared your story with us at this time because it helps many others too.
If you've done research prior to posting, you already know that many others have gone the route before and they share here too. It's a wonderful community for sharing.
As the expression goes, " Keep coming back." LIN
thank you, I don't know all the answers, I do understand much of every religion I study, (because when boiled down to their very core...lies have not changed, just their delivery) for a reason, does truth need defending?...indeed it does. I believe I have a very keen perspective of especially the JW organization, my father was a higher up in their "'eschelon" as I stated I met Knorr when I was young their president in the early 60's, my fathers library I have now is huge and almost every book ever published by them from the early "Herald of the Morning" to the latter "Awake" and "Watchtower" publications. I knew several other higher ups who's kids went to work at Bethel (their printing organization in Brooklyn) through my father, I have had to correct many a so-called ex JW's when their doctrines didn't match up with JW doctrine I know and study. No harm I l0ike to understand all, and if I am wrong on certain things.. well as I always say, "I would rather be proven wrong so I may know the truth, as opposed to thinking I am right all the time" Knowledge is a journey... My journey through religion to find truth has been long and arduous indeed...I'm not sure if I am even finished... what I thought as true Christianity is not true just a mere 10 years ago!
Last Edited By: EldersSon Dec 25 13 8:31 PM. Edited 2 times.
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I'm sorry your brothers have turned on you so badly. Not very Christlike, is it? It never ceases to amaze me the things I hear jws saying and doing to others. And they say they have the truth! anyway, welcome to the board, it's nice to meet you.
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Welcome! Im glad you made it here. I and most all of us here know what your going through. I was dfed this past may. It was and the most tramatic event that i had ever and ontinue to deal with. But when it gets too bad, i come here. You are a wonderful person and you dont need anyone to confi.rm that....always do the right thing . My best friend i have now has never been in the borg...but she was the one who was there for me when my world came crashing down. Go out and meet people...volunteer and you will see that you are never alone
Diane
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Good Morning, Elder SonG'day Crazy I love all these icons that are so cute.
My gosh, I couldn't image being around those crazy fucks in the days of Knorr...apparently you aren't that youngCrazy so that's why it's Crikey! that you are posting, helping others find freedom from religious abuse.
I'd agree that the lies never change - it's just a different spin on the same old rhetoric.
Because many of us study different belief systems for research...and yes, we do understand that "Knowledge is a Journey", I'd still question as to why you think "Truth" needs defending if it cannot stand on it's own meritsmiley: pimp
At any rate I'm going to defend my own belief system and to hell with the others that just want control.
I do hope however you keep coming back and sharing your story. Rockstarhave a great weekend
status offlineAndriaSyxx
... it's rote learned and inherited hatred ES ... #8 [-]
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EldersSon wrote:
Thanks...I just needed to get it off my mind, ya know...as for information on JW's.. i am probably one of the best for answers. I study all religions from Bahi to Zoroastrianism, lol all cults of course...anyways it's the holidays and I was feeling down, I am very logical and yet I am still amazed my family would just drop me like that. The pure hatred that comes from them is again astonishing to me...before my mother left we had always been close regardless, even my dad before he passed in 2009 had rekindled our relationship, to the point I took him and my mother to Florida for 2 great vacations, just well like I stated when my dad passed...it's been downhill ever since, to have those closest to me turn away in a blink is still hard to accept. I like people, I like to talk to anyone I meet...indeed I am that guy who says "Hi" to people I see walking down the street, I open doors for complete strangers, I hold them for women, I open the car door for my wife and close it for her, and when we get to our destination, I get out first, and walk to her side to open her door...if I see someone with a flat tire I stop and introduce myself ( I used to not have to do that, but todays world is rather scary for most and I understand this) and ask if they need help! When I walk down the street or walking into the grocery store, if I see some trash on the ground I pick it up and throw it away...I dunno maybe I care too much.. or maybe others care too little. The other day a girl was walking down the stairs where I was visiting, she was carrying a vacuum I offered to carry it to her car, she was very grateful and somewhat shocked someone would actually help her ( I get those looks all the time).. lol I do prattle on...anyways MERRY CHRISTMAS to you and everyone else! (Yes I insist on greeting everyone with a Merry Christmas, not "holidays"..that goes for all holidays!
... the hatred your family has pointed your way, is (as I put in the title line above) a simple case of rote learned and inherited hatred. It's something the average jdub is so well versed in and so 'inculcated' with ... that they don't see it as hatred. They see it as love! Perverse love to normal people like the rest of us in here ... but to the average jdub family, they are taught and sadly seem to believe that shutting out and shunning 'stray' loved ones ... will have the 'stray' loved ones going back to the fold with their tails firmly clenched between their own legs.
NOT always the case ... as is evident by the amount of free spirited freedom lovers in here ....... but perhaps knowing others feel the same way as you, will help ease the sadness that being shunned by loved ones invariably makes us feel. You are doing what's right for you. You are not intentionally or unintentionally harming anyone. You are good to your wife and to strangers .... you are YOU! Your family are the lost souls ... not you. So stand tall ... walk tall ... and don't let the negative nellies of that religion hold you back!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlinepunkofnice
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Welcome Elder's son. My father was an Elder too....then I was...then the bubble burst....I saw the WBT$ for the vile cult it actually is.
Long story short, religion and god are no longer my thing. Leaving the clutches of the manipulative WBT$ has made me suspicious of all faith and faiths.
A friend of mine once told me something that to this day resonates with me.
''A real friend loves you unconditionally through thick and thin. Those friends that leave you because you leave a cult were never real friends in the first place and are not worth it.''
Enjoy the forum ES.
Regards Paul (MDA - Mentally diseased apostate)!
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Punkie, Guess I'm following you around this morning smiley: embarassedsmiley: frown before I have to write a letter to my fence-rider's daughter that they really don't understand how their mother has been negatively impacted from that filth of her youth.
A hearty Throw heart kissesto all the posters, new and old..
status offlinemorgana
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Hello elders son
You are not alone here, welcome to our boarwe all understand where your coming from,
status offlineKBG
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EldersSon wrote:
My oldest brother who is an elder has told me in front of people,"don't use Bible scriptures on me"
Don't you love this, God gave THEM the bible to use on other people.
ES,
I wish life could be easier for you. I am very active with my church now and its a good fit for me and has given me a large circle of friends. I've also become quite a gym rat and after 3 years have some friends there too. Do pursue your beliefs and passions and find those people working toward similar goals. Keep your chin up pal, Kevin
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Hello there EldersSon and welcome :-)
Fortunately we have quite a few elders here....and also quite a few elders children.............unfortunately, they are not necessarily related to each other smiley: wink
I salute you for being brave enough to stand up and claim your right to your own life.......it is hard enough when we have been brainwashed from birth, but it must be that much harder when those parents -were so uber-zealous and looked up to by the cong!!
I'm glad you found us, and I hope that being able to share, and relate to others will be cathartic to you!!
Sam
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
status offlineEldersSon
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Thanks all....it was getting near the holidays, and even though I am not a big holiday person.. lol i guess growing up JW instills that no holiday thing in ya...I never remember holidays, well except for the famous ones.. I remember what day Christmas is,I remember that Thanksgiving is the 4th thursday,, ( i could never understand why they didn't celebrate Thanksgiving!), and of course Halloween..but the rest I can never remember, anyways I still like the feeling I get with people being nicer so I was feeling down cause being abandoned by my family. I got to say though I always knew there was something wrong with the JW cult. I came up with several funny names for the JW's.. like the plural for jW's is witni lol, and ya know how JW's have "memorials" instead of funerals.. well I always remembered how I was told that some how God wipes the memory of a non witness from their minds so they wouldn't have bad memories of ones who didn't make it after God kills off all witni.. so I thought up this idea that JW's use memory-oil instead of memorial. the elder rub memory oil on witni thus wiping out their memories lol. My cousin and I made up all kinds of funny stuff for them. I hope I can add some humor to this place for this cult and we can all have a good laugh!
Happy New Year Friends!!
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Last Edited By: EldersSon Jan 3 14 8:28 PM. Edited 1 times.
status offlineSailAway
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Group hug You are among friends here, Elders Son, and I don't mean the kind with plastic, smiling faces like at the KH! Keeping your sense of humor about all things JW is great! I can never remember my 7 non-JW siblings birthdays-- I think I'm JW birthday impaired for life. I have been struggling with the whole extended family holiday thing this year. I love being with my hubby and children for Thanksgiving and Christmas, but after over two years of trying to re-integrate with my extended non-JW family, I have decided that I've had enough. I have disengaged. I'm learning to do what feels right for me. It sounds selfish, but why would anyone want to exchange a lifetime of enslavement for another form of the same?
My older sister text messaged me saying, "I didn't know you weren't going to be here for Christmas." I was out of the country taking a break from 24/7 caregiving for our mom. Well, she didn't ask, so of course, she wouldn't know what is going on in my life or in her own mother's for that matter. I responded, "Merry Christmas!" Enough said.
We celebrated New Year's Eve with my nephew and his fiancé. It was lovely. Since my sister lives out of state, I'm considered the "honorary mom", and I love all of it-- being in on the planning for my nephew's 30th birthday surprise visit from my sister, their engagement party and wedding plans. I'm rebuilding a family where I feel loved, included and wanted. No pressure. No guilt. No drama.
The 14th-century Persian poet Hafiz wrote:
Every child has known God,
Not the God of names,
Not the God of don'ts,
Not the God who ever does anything weird,
But the God who knows only four words,
And keeps repeating them, saying:
"Come Dance with Me."
Come Dance
Last Edited By: SailAway Jan 7 14 10:21 AM. Edited 1 times.
status offline3d808
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We are all friends here ! As far as the crap your brother texted to you, success is the best revenge. Don't forget that ! They want to see you fail so they can say," I told you so". Come here when you need assistance.
status offlinehalf banana
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A warm welcome to the forum ES! We do understand you here and sympathise in a way outsiders cannot imagine.
I agree with 3d's post that success (and I would add happiness as well) outside the org, is one of the best replies to the doomesday cult.
What is amazing about the brainwashing is that the mental pathways formed as a JW are so deep that it takes a long time to eradicate them and be able to think and act freely again.
Things must be tough for you now... but take courage, you have a partner and a mother in law it seems on your side, you can make good friends who are not JW zombies and you have us as well!
So looking forward to hearing more from you, your extensive knowledge of the workings of the WTBTS will be a great contribution to our site.
hb
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Hi Elder...glad you posted again but wait, are you surfing around and I've missed a new post?smiley: pimp
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It bites you back
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offlineGurgi
It bites you back
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In 2012 i went to visit my sister for Xmas and the new year. While i was there my sister showed me a film called Donnie Darko and as i watched the film i noticed things that made a lot of sense relating to something that happened when i was a JW and living up in Leeds.
At the time of the events i'm about to describe, i was working part time at a private hospital as well as being a JW and i think (though my memory is getting fuddled) i might have been a ministerial servent by this time too.
As i've said elsewhere on these forums, i got rid of my music and games because of what i believed at the time to be demonic influences. This left me with pretty much nothing in terms of recreation in my bedroom (the place where i pretty much grew up).
Around this time, my sister, her husband and their daughter had some difficulties and so i was asked by my dad if i'd mind if they moved back in with us for a time. Firstly, i couldn't work out why i had been asked but gave my reply anyway since i had been asked for one. I was honest and staright forward (as is my way) and said that the decision was his to make since he was head of the household but since i'd been asked my opinion i thought there may well be problems along the way. I felt that was an accurate and respectful answer and thought nothing more of the matter.
Later my sister, her husband and their daughter moved into a room next to my bedroom on one side.
Around this time i'd bought some music c.d.'s to listen to which were of some of my favourite bands and which i kept hidden (was this my 'double life'..?) and which i'd listen to on a night through my headphones.
I began to notice a strange tension around the house involving my sisters husband and myself. He made some comments about my being ill and basically insinuated that i 'put it on' (like others..). At this point, my sister and her husband were not attending JW meetings.
One day i'd gone off to work as usual and got through the day. When i got home my sister was sat at the kitchen table and wanted to speak with me. She told me that she, her husband and her daughter were attacked by demons and that the demons came from the wall next to my bedroom. She told me that their daughter was held by demons and that her husband was very angry with me and had gone out of the house because he was so angry with me.
I put everything down to my secret stash of music. I cannot describe how guilt ridden i felt, how scared or how upset. I honestly believed i was responsible for them being 'attacked' by demons.
I remember going oustide, not wanting to be in the house and looking up in the sky believeing demons were all around.
My sisters daughter refferred to the demons as 'rabbits'. She stated that the 'rabbits' held her. Every so often she would say, "Rabbits!" and i'd panic, believing demons to be present.
Back to my 2012 visit to my sisters and Donnie Darko..
My sister told me of how her and her then husband had gone to the cinema to see Donnie Darko and how her husband had got mad because he didn't understand the ending... My sister also told of how they had done some 'magic mushrooms' with some friends of theirs around this time...
If you've ever seen Donnie Darko then you'll know that there is a rabbit like character who the central film character sees...
Edit: (i almost forgot to include this bit!) I also found out that my dad had gone for a drink with my sisters husband and had told him to keep his eye on me and @expect problems' because i didn't approve of them moving in with us... I hate to say, "i told you so" but hey, "i told you so!".
I began to do the sums. I got my answer, it's not hard to figure out.
When i got home in the new year my mind was swimming. I was sooooo angry. "Donnie effing Darko! Donnie effing Darko!", as i slammed around cups making my tea.
I've had some time to mull all of this over and i feel that this is a better time to tell this story. I don't blame myself, i don't blame my sister. Her ex husband was to tosser who tried to murder her and he was off his head anyway.
It was a strange one to deal with, for years i'd carried guilt then i dealt with the whole Satan/demon issues and no longer believe they exist or ever existed and then wham! I get smacked in the face with past events.
I guess it's the same for all of us. The past bites us back.
It's good to be able to post this, I really don't think i was in a good position to do this when i first tried.
'Do a barrel roll!' - Peppy Hare, Lylat Wars - N64
'Andross wont have his way with me!' - Fox McCloud, Lylat Wars - N64
Last Edited By: Gurgi Feb 25 14 7:43 AM. Edited 2 times.
status offlineCacky
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Could their mushroom experience be what made them think they were being attacked by demons. Little kids are easy to manipulate if you begin asking leading questions.
status offlinewhytebyrd2
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Gurgi, I can remember those irrational fears of demons back in the day. I also got rid of a lot of music and also a piece of jewelry that I still kick myself over. It was an antique that had belonged to my great grandmother. The music was replaceable but not that.
As for the demon rabbits........it sounds like the magic mushrooms must have been at the root of that and Cacky's explanation about children's being easily manipulated into believing things also makes sense.
I never saw the movie Donnie Darko but I love the song 'Mad World' that was from that film.
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
t.s.eliot
status offlineGurgi
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@Cacky
Indeed. I put 2 and two together and made four also. Couple the magic mushrooms with the Donnie Darko film and add the fact that my sisters then husband clearly did not like me as a direct result of the misrepresentation of facts my very own father gave him about what i'd said (and only because i was asked at that..) and bingo! I also know that little children can become swept up in the fear of their parents first hand. I have arachnophobia (spiders! aaargh! eeek! etc.) and one day there was a huge spider on my lounge wall - massive body too urgh! My fear kicked in and i asked my daughter if she was afraid of spiders. Seeing her dads panic, fear stricken state, she naturally replied..,"Yes!". It's not rocket science to deduce the events that actually took place that day and the thing is that they had no idea of my secret stash of music until i said something about it due to the guilt.
@whytebyrd2
That many of us can relate to such fear and instances of panic due to the whole Satan/demon twaddle spouted by the WBTS is both unsuprising and sad. No one should be subject to such fear in the name of any religion and as we've seen countless times, that mental illness is fed this stuff is criminal - in my own opinion.
As for the music to Donnie Darko..
Tears For Fears released their song, "Mad World" in around 1983 from their album, The Hurting. R.E.M. covered the song which is played in the film Donnie Darko. I like the piano piece in R.E.M.'s version but that's all. Tears For Fears original version is far superior - in my opinion.
I can (when i'm not short of breath..) sing some Tears For Fears stuff and rip off the voices, including Mad World.
'Do a barrel roll!' - Peppy Hare, Lylat Wars - N64
'Andross wont have his way with me!' - Fox McCloud, Lylat Wars - N64
status offlinebelladiane
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Feb 27 14 6:07 AM
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Um absolutely mushrooms make you hallucinate big time! Lord, stay away from those toxic people and try to surround yourself with normal thinking happy individuals....they are all insane in the membrane!
status offlineKBG
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Gurgi,
If someone tells me I've done something to upset or hurt them, I tend to believe them. That can be a problem. Sometimes the crime you've committed against someone only exists in their mind, but, it takes a while until you realize that is the case.
One time this woman I worked with was furious with me. I shared some piece of info with her in the afternoon that I had learned in the AM. She went off on me saying how I never share info. At first I believed her and am thinking how I could have handled this better, but, then I reasoned it all out in my own mind, she was the problem.
I found out X in a 9am meeting, had another meeting from 10-11, then she had a meeting followed by lunch from 11-1pm, I had another meeting 1-2, finally we were both in the office after 2, when I told her...so....when would I have told her any sooner?
I think taking responsibility for problems and situations that really are not our fault is a big problem for many JWs / X JWs.
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Graham ....... the whole demon thing was a very VERY effective way to get jdubs to tow the official religious party line. Everything could contain demons ... from music to food and back again. Books had demons. TV shows had demons. CHILDREN'S TV shows had demons. Smurfs had demons. The next door neighbours had demons. There have been 'phases' in the lives of many jdubs when demons were literally everywhere and no-one but a fellow jdub could be trust ... and even then they could be influenced by demons!
Phew! Aren't you glad you're not living like that anymore! I remember when I was really young being told that demons could invade your thoughts when you slept ... and one of the elders of the day suggested young ones sleep with their bible opened underneath their pillows! I did that ... but the constant bombardment of 1975 being 'the last days', talk of Armageddon, torture, rape, persecution etc .... had already ruined what little sleep pattern I'd managed to cultivate.
It is really REALLY good that you are able to get some of this stuff out Graham. It's a bit like a fart mate ... better out than in!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineLocutus
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Agree! I also got all loaded up with a big dose of the demon fear as a young child in the bOrg. I overcame it eventually.. wasted a lot of years doing so. I'm so immune now! You could put a Smurf plushie and an Alice Cooper album under my pillow and I'd not be affected now. Hehe, ya, I'm so bad.
status offlinewhytebyrd2
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Yeah well.........I have books on witchcraft in my bookcase alongside the Bible, Koran and other books.
No demons.
Also got a celtic cross on my wall with an Irish blessing.
No demons.
No poltergeist
No voices.
No nothings that always get associated with demons.
Yeah.........I'm also so bad. And so not in fear of that shit any more. It feels good!
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
t.s.eliot
Last Edited By: whytebyrd2 Mar 3 14 8:07 AM. Edited 3 times.
status offlineGurgi
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Like, Zoinks!
Locutus and whytebyrd2, you really have no fear huh?
Well.. I'll give you guys a run for your money because my daughter and i watched some Scooby Doo cartoons and like no scary demons or dudes or dudetes freaked us out. No sireee. Oh, yeah.. we're baaad too.
Actaully, this (topic) raises some points that i think a very worthy of further discussion perhaps in other areas of the forum. Namely: 1) The divisions within the JW household (obviously my dad was never baptized and at the time in question my sister and her family were not attending meetings) e.g. family members actively discouraging participation in recreational activities etc thus enhancing feelings of isolation upon individuals within the family home. 2) The blame game. Humans have a very strong sense of justice and feelings of being wronged. Heck, we have legal systems and courts worldwide and more lawyers than we know what to do with (and so does the WBTS...). It felt so strange for me to stuggle with apportioning blame for (in this instance) the demon thing. Humans have made more religions than i'll ever know about so what am i angry with? Humans being humans? I do feel angry that money making scams that contribute to a persons ill mental health are allowed to exist - absoloutely i am. Governments should be involved in rooting out and dealing with such money making scams.
If i took someone off the street and messed with their head so bad that they were afraid to go to sleep then i would be put through the legal system no questions aked. It would be illegal. Full stop.
There is no difference in my opinion.
I got angry with the system i live in because under it i had no choice.
That has to change.
There are a raft of other issues with money making scams like the WBTS - it's not a religion in my opinion. I've highlighted one and countless stories highlight a host of other issues too.
It is nice to not be affected by the fear of these damaging control mechanisms and i do have freedom in my choices now because of having worked through such things. I truly share in the joy of others for being free of such horrible control mechanisms and hope more can enjoy such freedom in their own lives too.
I considered wether to share this and i believed that there was merit to sharing it as it nicely highlights just how things seemed at the time were not what we were lead to believe and that an issue that can be so mentally scarring can be seen in its true light. For me at the time of learning, the hurt of those events and of that time returned but with my new beliefs so firmly in place i did not know where to direct my anger towrd nor whom should be apportioned blame. Anger and the feeling of being wronged are natural human feelings and emotions.
Graham.
'Do a barrel roll!' - Peppy Hare, Lylat Wars - N64
'Andross wont have his way with me!' - Fox McCloud, Lylat Wars - N64
status offlineLocutus
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Graham, I agree with your insights.
However, religions have a special legal and a widely perceived moral authority in our society to do as they please, as it was previously thought to be for 'the greater good' and are enshrined in law and tax system. Like railways, they get special privileges as they were tools of the state's purposes of expansion, wealth creation and control.
It will change in time, but probably not in our time. Make peace with that, and you are on your way to inner peace. Find a way beyond the betrayal and anger, to find a constructive path, outside of our experience. Forward… We cannot control our past. We have our whole lives ahead of us. We have the ability to choose our own path. If we do not do so, we only have ourselves to blame. We can get bogged down in the injustices of society, or choose to let it go and enjoy life…
We know what we know, stop blaming others, move on and enjoy our lives now.
On that topic, I'm off to sailing school tomorrow afternoon , hope to get my CYA ticket soon…
status offlineGurgi
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@Locutus
Yes, 'religions' (or money making scams that masquerade as religions - in my mopinion) do have a way of 'evading' certain laws. I also agree that it will change in time just as over time the place and role of religions has indeed changed in our society.
I agree also that we have our lives ahead of us and knowlege of more freedom of our own choices that we knew about having broken free of that horrid money making scam. As i stated at the outset, this tale was from 2012 and i couldn't post it at the time because i wasn't in the right mental frame of mind to do so. I am consicentious of dealing with anger before posting, hence my posting this when i was in the right mental frame of mind to do so. I have as we all do worked hard with dealing with the injustices of my time in the organization that is the WBTS and all that went with it and i agree with you also that we can become bogged down if we do not find a way past these things.
Yes, we do know what we know. I'd rather apportion blame in it's rightful direction than at myself - it's wrongful direction. There is a great tendancy to blame ourselves for, not egtting out sooner, could i have done more? These are things i know about because i've worked through them with my own therapist. Blame has it's righful place in the healing process and is an important component of it when we understand the situation.
I also agree with you that we should enjoy life, hence my trip to town yesterday.
Nice one on your sailing school, hope you have a great time.
I'm trying to build my social skills. I was going to post with an update of my computer course but i broke down in it and was too ashamed to post. I have to arrange a catch up meeting soon with the bloke at the mental health place next to the JW's kindom hall. Not positive, not negative (i don't do CBT) just reality. I like reality - lots.
Anger can be a catalyst to affect change in our society with differing outcomes as we have seen. Hopefully one day (as you say) that change will affect money making scams that masquerade as religions and hopefully the outcome will be for the bettermant of our lives promoting more inner peace.
Graham.
'Do a barrel roll!' - Peppy Hare, Lylat Wars - N64
'Andross wont have his way with me!' - Fox McCloud, Lylat Wars - N64
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Hard to believe that we can gave up fear for freedom of research and question the powers that be...
WhyBird, I'd love seeing your library! I've always told my son to never throw a book away...
This is a great topic - thanks for sharing your thoughts.
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The many religions of the world seem to be able to rip money off their followers ... brainwash and scare their followers ... all with the sanction of whatever government from whatever country! It's all a bit too convenient for the religions to flourish in some countries. Ours included.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Keeping the congregation CLEAN
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Keeping the congregation CLEAN
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Mar 4 14 3:47 AM
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My husband was ticked when he got home tonight! He came in, said he was going to say a prayer and then we were going to have a family discussion. My daughter and I look at each other and I think, uh oh, I bet this is about the religion.... Well I was right.
My still in husband has been doing some work for a older sister in our congregation. This is an amazing woman and I love her dearly. She's been better to me than my mother (that isn't hard though, most strangers are). Anyway this woman has been taking care of her extremely sick wheelchair bound husband for 20 years and he died a few weeks ago. Well this sister has missed most of the meetings in the last year but most people chocked it up to her husband suffering a couple strokes and her workload increasing, etc. She told my husband the real reason. About a year ago a brother in our cong was helping her around the house, being very attentive, texting her, etc. She welcomed the help because mostly the brothers just ignore her even though she has been incredibly faithful her whole life. So one day while in her home this guy comes up behind her, grabs her arm and tries to kiss her, forcing himself on her. Says he's developed feelings for her and feels she's done the same with him. She freaked out and told him to get out. She went to the elders and turns out this guy was in prison for 10 years for sexual assault! !
Sidenote: About 18 months age I was in service with this brother and he invited me to go to a return visit with him that was a woman. When she opened the door and saw him she started screaming at us to get off her property, that he was a sexual pervert and JW let sexual predators go to strangers doors, etc. We left and I felt so bad for this brother because it was like a personal attack on him and I thought the lady was just blaming him in general as a man in the organization. So I told him I'm sorry that happened, that probably makes you feel bad, don't let it get you down.
Back to the elders. This is why my husband was so ticked off - they didn't do anything to this guy. Just blew it off as not 2 witnesses. He was in JAIL for 10 years, that's another witness as far as the Shepherding the Flock book says! The elders had the gull to ask her if she kissed him back or gave him any reason to think she was interested in him. She was furious. Her husband is sitting there in his wheelchair, in the meeting with the elders with her and tears are streaming down his face. He can't talk anymore but the guy is really upset this happened to his wife of over 40 years! Can you imaging? This ass tries kissing her in her home when her stoke victim husband is in the other room! The meeting ended when the elders told her to go make peace with this brothers wife. Go up to her and make peace. WTF?? She said, "Me??? How is that my place? And since he is denying it what's the sister to think of her?? So those were the elders final words and they did nothing to the brother and made no effort to warn the congregation. So much for caring to keep the congregation clean and safe, huh?
So for the last 2 months (god, I can't believe that's all its been) I've been showing my husband all the things I'm learning. You have to remember we are both still in and in good standing in the congregation and I'm just mentally out 2 months or so. He's been listening to everything and agreeing that the organization is corrupt but it's still the truth, etc. etc. Well now he is seeing our dear friend go through the same treatment as all these child sexual assault victims have been claiming. It's hit home to him now and he's pissed!
Also interesting that he had this frank discussion in front of our 13 year old because he's been adamant that I keep quiet with her about how I'm feeling. Well he was talking openly to her tonight about my not wanting anything to do with the religion any longer. My daughter took the opportunity to tell him that she doesn't want to be a JW, that to her it is clearly not the truth and she's felt that way for some time.
So all that and this older sister and my husband still express their faith that Jehovah will take care of it in the end and these elders carry a heavy judgment in how they're handling this. That is so disappointing. I'm trying to find a way to look at this. I guess the main thing is that he's no longer going to be controlled by this cult and listen to whatever they say anymore but he's also not going to give up on God like I have. I guess I need to be ok with that.
Wow, this turned out long, sorry. Thoughts?
Last Edited By: phototrue Mar 4 14 8:15 AM. Edited 1 time.
status offlineMystla
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While I am really sorry for your friend having to go through that experience, I'm glad it's been so eye opening for your husband to hear about it. These sorts of things happen so frequently, it's really ridiculous! "Spirit directed" indeed! smiley: eyes
That is also fantastic that your daughter was able to speak openly about not wanting to be a jw any more. You guys are all on your way out! I predict that a year from now you will all be eating brunch on Sundays and laughing about how lovely it is to sleep in on the weekends. smiley: smile
"The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago; the second best time is now"
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status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Oh wow ... that poor lady! I cannot imagine someone trying to invade my personal space IN my personal space! She should have reported him to the Police and not bothered with the patriarchal WBTS sideshow she endured. I dare say her husband was more than just upset ... he would have felt dreadful not being able to keep her safe.
Unfortunately there are many sexual deviates floating about the WBTS and in other religions too. For whatever reason ... religious leaders seem to think that an overt show of remorse, a splash of tears here and there plus a quick 'I won't do it again' absolves someone from wrongdoing. How precious some religions can be when it comes to protecting killers, sex offenders, child abusers, thieves and liars. They're not protecting their flock by not saying anything or warning others about people like that in their midst ... they are simply creating more victims!
I admire your daughter in speaking her mind ... good for her! She is fortunate in having you by her side and hopefully her dad too. Be your usual happy self PT ....... and your hubby may just see the REAL world without those WBTS inspired rose-coloured glasses he's currently wearing. Give your daughter a hug from me .... and make sure she gives you one back. It's not easy negotiating a fade away from that lot!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineYammerHammer
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What blows me away is how vigilant the Elders are in looking for any spiritual weakness in their flock--always hunting apostates--people who dare to question or change their mind about what they believe. But something like this, ah well, the WOMAN must have done something to bring this on herself. Besides, they need another witness to take any action. They want to be spiritual cops with their elder's badges, but when there is real crime in the congregation, they don't do a damned thing.
Your husband has now seen things the way they really are. Hopefully he will continue to look behind the illusion and realize the whole thing is a sham. Hang in there... in a way, I see this as a real "opportunity" to open his eyes all the way. I'm wondering about your friend... how this will affect her in the long run. I think she should still call the real cops and turn this guy in.
“The first problem for all of us, men and women, is not to learn but to unlearn.” ~ Gloria Steinem
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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It's funny how a outwardly 'remorseful - I'll never do it again' sexual offender ... is more welcome to sit at the family dinner table than an apostate!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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YammerHammer, good to see you keep posting. I'm just behind with reading through the forums...my bad.
Rhonda, my love - I'd agree about not invading my private space. I've struggled for years hoping to find recovery and when reading these stories, I just get pissed off again...
I try not hating the people but it's another story when it comes to their filthy religion that protects the guilty. I was once the same way...and today, I'd call the cops too. I know having a relationship with them [local governertnt] and we all want peace of mind, so, we continue helping them as they help us.
And so they want being seen as, "Clean"....that's a joke!
They are filthy liars that hide behind religion. We all know that game; and find recovery with sites such as this.
status offlinethehappygoat
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Wow what a terrible situation! Poor lady. I'm glad she had enough confidence to tell your husband. Hopefully his outrage bolstered her up a little.
This might be a huge generalization, but it seems to me that men and women who leave the org. do it for very different reasons. Women tend to leave more for emotional and "people" reasons. You know, seeing all the injustices and hypocrisy and dishonesty, etc. Men tend to leave more for doctrinal reasons. It's not always that way of course. It wasn't for me. But I do think men take these situations and try to find a logic behind it. So as outraged as your husband was by this, it sounds like he is still trying to find a scriptural or shall I say organizational explanation for it all that he can get behind.
But it could also be the tipping point for him. You should tell him about the example (It's in Ray Franz's 2nd book I think) of the sister who divorced her husband because he was having sex with an animal on their farm. She eventually got remarried, and they disfellowshipped her because while he had been having sex outside of the marriage, it could not have resulted in a baby and so therefore was not technically considered adultery. But her getting remarried did. Even when the society changed it's position on this, they refused to rescind her d.f.'ing. No circular reasoning can make sense of so much that the org. does!
Keep us up to date on what happens!
Valerie
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It's so sad that this is such a typical case. This isn't something that "rarely" happens. Just disgusting how they think they are so above any responsibility for how badly they handle situations. Hopefully your husband will eventually get sick of putting up with it all.
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I hope things go well for you and your family in getting out of the cult.
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status offlineFiguringitout20
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That is so true. The freedom feels so good.
I'm curious how many members are active on this forum? The welcome has been great!
Has anyone read about the Moonies? When I was a kid I remember JWs making a big deal out of how weird they were, but from what I've heard recently, there are similarities between JWs and Moonies? I'd also like to read Crisis of Conscience, but I've only seen really expensive pricing. I distinctly remember we were in the middle of studying Commentary on James in the book study when they pulled it due to Franz's connection to it. I was only a kid, but I remember thinking the book was less boring than some of the other publications.
Who's glad they don't have to place magazines, make return visits, track not-at-homes, count hours and turn in time slips??! :)
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My kids are ages 5 and 2 1/2 so I'm still figuring out what to tell them about religion. So far I've gone with the "some people believe" angle, which seems to be working. I'm sure more detail will be required as they get older. Most of it is in reference to things my mom and sister say. (jws) Like your husband, my hubby wasn't raised in any religion, so his take on the whole thing is rather laid back. Sounds like you and I have a lot in common. smiley: smile
There are free pdf versions of Crisis of Conscience. I don't have my link any more, and I don't like recommending one unless I know it's safe. Maybe someone else here has a link they know works and doesn't have any bugs? Or, if you are feeling brave, you can google "Crisis of Conscience pdf" and you should find some options.
I still revel in the glee of not having to go out in service any more. I always hated it with a passion. I pioneered for 3 years and dreaded every single minute of it. Except maybe the coffee breaks, depending on who I was with. Of course now days I still get coffee breaks and I get to do it only with people I like! smiley: happy
"The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago; the second best time is now"
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Like Misty ... I've also gone with the 'some people' thing when it comes to religion and have added 'some people need or want religion ... some people don't need or want it ... and others have yet to make up their minds'. Our boys are 15yrs and 12yrs old now and this has worked well. They don't judge others for having religion in their lives as it's their choice to do so ... but the boys are not keen at all on anyone trying to talk religion to them. My hubby wasn't raised with religion either. He finds it all rather amusing and yet tinged with sadness for those who can't see beyond their religious dogma.
I remember all the hoopla about the Moonies and saw a recent documentary of a bunch of young Moonies off to Korea (?) to get married to other Moonies. The doco was started in the UK and is fairly recent. So they're still out there.
We had the Rajneeshies here in the Great Southern end of Western Australia. Now THEY were very amusing. Lots of orange and purple and pink ... they bought a property in Pemberton which is now a holiday resort. I think of Rajneeshies and instantly hear Ma Prem WhateverHerNameWas saying 'tough titties' to the Australian Press people!!!!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Mystla wrote:
My kids are ages 5 and 2 1/2 so I'm still figuring out what to tell them about religion. ....
Run!!! Run Away!!!
status offlineFiguringitout20
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Misty, we do have a lot in common! I also pioneered for 3 or 4 years and hated it too. I always did my best to get into the car group I wanted to be in, particularly one that was doing return visits rather than door to door in a territory because that meant more driving less preaching. And coffee breaks were the better part of the day. I always thought it was strange that sisters had to wear head coverings to say the prayer for the field service meeting. When I first told my hubby about my pioneering experience he thought the term "pioneering" was funny. So much crazy JW lingo.
I actually did try downloading Crisis of Conscience pdfs some time ago, but none of the links worked.
I was teased by classmates for being a JW when I was a kid. So, the last thing I want is for my kids to tease other poor witness kids that don't know any better. So, I also don't want them judging JWs or non JWs.
Andria, do your boys ask about life after death? My 6 year old asked about that once. Basically I told him I don't know, but some people believe... So, I've used the "some people" too. Having grown up being told absolutes for every single question..."This is the truth." "This is the only correct answer to your question"...It feels strange to tell my kids at times that I don't have the answer. In the long run I hope my boys respect that their parents were willing to admit they don't know everything.
Rajneeshies? Are those like the Hari Krishnas? Tough titties haha!
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Good Morning, Fig.
As far as our children...wish I could give you the answer. I just believe that teaching our children to do research while not shaming is important. Every religion will want you to spin the story their way...and sometimes our children will get confused, just as we did/do. I think it's for just allowing freedom of research and have an open discussion without damning the other.
status offlinebelladiane
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Hi Fig and welcome.
I was 'forced' to see the darkness behind the white washed grave as well. Funny, before I was dfed last year I was inactive for almost 20 years before 2008 and I never looked into anything. Still always thought it was the real deal. But when they pushed me out, after I went to them for help and confession, I was shocked and devastated by this decision. Didn't seem like anything any loving God or Jesus would ever do to me ...so it was then that I realized that they were just another form of bablyon the great, world empire of false religion. I now enjoy my own 'examining of the scriptures' and 'test out the expired expressions' I don't need anyone but Jesus and God to help me understand what I am reading.
Glad to see you post and look forward to future postings!
status offlinesolitaire
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I'm curious how many members are active on this forum?
Hey Fig - in answer to your question, just copied these figures from the details at the bottom of the home page (under community details)..............so although we all 'come and go' as life allows........and although some have 'moved on', its still a busy and great place to be a part of smiley: smile
Founded: Apr 22 2004
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Of course facebook has claimed a lot of our members, but so long as they pop in here every now and then to update us, we don't count them as 'disassociated' or 'inactive' lol!! smiley: wink
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
Last Edited By: solitaire Mar 14 14 10:01 AM. Edited 1 times.
status offlineFiguringitout20
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Bella, I'm sorry to hear about your DFing experience. So much for "loving discipline". More like cruel and unusual punishment. JWs treat DFd people as if they are dead. I don't think most JWs give any thought to how a DFd person feels. They just care that the org is "clean" and believe they are more righteous. However, put them in the exact same life circumstances as the DFd person and there's a good chance they would have followed that same path themselves. I hope you've since found lots of good support. Thanks for the welcome! :)
Solitaire, thanks for the forum usage data. That's interesting info. It is an active forum for sure, with lots of members. No disassociated or inactive statuses - lol! Good to know ;).
status offlinethehappygoat
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Welcome fig!
I know of one situation that I was pretty close to where a sister left her witness husband and revealed he had been abusing her for years. She divorced him and some in the cong. took her side but many more took his side (big family; lots of "friends" in high places). She got so discouraged from the lack of support that she quit. Couple years later re-married a great "worldly" guy and had a baby. One night they announced at the KH that she was d.f.'d. She swears she never got a phone call or letter or email or anything asking to meet with her. The grand poobah elder in her hall had a vendetta and was determined to oust her.
But as we know, all congs are different. I'm not d.f.'d; just faded, but I still watch my back. God forbid I should be seen coming out of a voting location or be spotted having lunch with my d.f.'d friends or buying Christmas wrapping paper (yes I still hide it under the enormous toilet paper package!). I only care for the same reason you have - I want to be able to talk with my family.
You asked about the Moonies. There's a great book called Combating Cult Mind Control by Steve Hassan. It's a fantastic read and in his case, he was a Moonie, so the whole beginning part of the book talks about the inside of that cult.
Valerie
status offlineFiguringitout20
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Happy, Thanks for the welcome. That's just horrible about the abused wife. WTH, how can they DF without even talking to her? Funny my hubby calls an elder "the grand poobah" too. I know elders that have gotten away with things that others in the past were publicly marked or reprooved for. And since it's a patriarchal system, more often than not it seems the brothers get the better shake and the sisters are just expected to be submissive.
Hiding Xmas paper under the TP. Haha! The first 5-6 years I was out, I was super cautious like that too. Then I wasn't so cautious, but I guess that's how I got caught. So, now I'm back on the down low a bit waiting it out and hoping I'm completely off their radar again.
I'm faithful to my hubby and do my best to instill good values in my children. But, oh I vote for or against things that impact my taxes? My good deeds are wiped out for this grave sin. :-0 Granted, I do more than just vote (probably 75% of what I do is against the rules), but even if all I did was vote they would consider that nullifying everything else good I did in my life. Their priorities are so off!
I have heard much about the book you mention. It sounds interesting and I plan to read it.
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Figuringitout20 wrote:
I was teased by classmates for being a JW when I was a kid. So, the last thing I want is for my kids to tease other poor witness kids that don't know any better. So, I also don't want them judging JWs or non JWs.
Andria, do your boys ask about life after death? My 6 year old asked about that once. Basically I told him I don't know, but some people believe... So, I've used the "some people" too. Having grown up being told absolutes for every single question..."This is the truth." "This is the only correct answer to your question"...It feels strange to tell my kids at times that I don't have the answer. In the long run I hope my boys respect that their parents were willing to admit they don't know everything.
Rajneeshies? Are those like the Hari Krishnas? Tough titties haha!
My kids know what it's like to be teased ... as they are 'different' compared to other kids. They're polite ... sensitive ... friendly ... have an adult sense of humour (hasn't got them into trouble yet smiley: wink ) and they actually care about how other kids feel. We usually tell our kids that it's not nice to be picked on and it's even worse to be the one doing the picking. I've never had an issue of them laughing at other kids or picking on them for any reason. If anything ... they are more likely to step into a situation and stop things from worsening. Must work on them doing that safely!
I don't know the answer to everything either Figness and neither does my husband ..... however ..... we are more than happy to own up to not knowing things and we find the answers together with the kids. Kids are far more adaptable and accepting than we give them credit for!
The life after death question has popped up more than once. The first time I was a little gobsmacked and didn't know what to say ... so I SAID "I don't know what to say ...." then we had a little chat together. My youngest (now 12) asks more 'what's the meaning of life' type questions than his older bro (now 15) ............... he always asks questions so we're well and truly used to it. I let my kids know that no-one knows what happens when someone dies ... as no-one has ever come back to report about it. Kids of 6 will accept that ... perhaps with a few more questions just to clarify ....... it's when they're a little older that they start to dig a little deeper and expect to find answers.
Conor (15yr old) asked me what my 'world view' was the other day ... it's a class assignment for English. I told him that my world view alters from day to day or even hour to hour. I then told him that my world view at his age had been dictated to me by my religious parents and by their religious 'friends' ...... and that I had entirely different views to them and to my friends from school too. I said that his world view would be different to some of his friends because he has a different home life to some of them. We're a very open, honest and relaxed type of tight knit family ... whereas some of his friends come from single-parent families or families where the parents sometimes argue and fight. He has a better understanding now and accepts that his own world view will change along the way too.
Carson (12yr old) will often be chatting away and out will come ... "so mum ....... do you ever wonder why we're here?" ... or "mum ... how do we know we are really here and not a figment of our own imaginations?" That's when I will smile that warm mummy-type smile and will come back with something along the lines of ... 'ahhhhh .... I'm here because I am Carson ...... I don't really care how I got here, I'm just here .... what do YOU think ..." .... or ... "well Carson ...... I guess if I pinch you and you say ouch .... that will mean that you're not a figment of my imagination and I'm not a figment of yours either!"
Kids are glorious little people who love to ask the why's, when's and wherefore's! The more questions they ask ... the brighter and less likely they are to be sucked into the religious vortexes of the world Figgy!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Thank You, Sam, for posting that .
Because I don't do Face Book or whatever else the Internet want me doing....I'm very happy for you sharing that we still have members: new and old that post and share experiences.
Ronnie and you Mods do a wonderful job for keeping this site alive.musical smilieDrink coffeewoohoo Love Lin and John
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offlineFiguringitout20
Former Lurker, Now Poster - Here's My Story
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Mar 8 14 12:04 PM
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I've been lurking on this site for months and am now finally posting my story. I was raised as a JW and got baptized when I was 11 years old. My grandpa and dad are elders. I faded from the org in my early 20's when I did something against the rules. I didn't want to have to fess up and I didn't want to live a double life. So, I quit. I was also disheartened to see good people being judged as "bad association". The last time I entered a KH was 20 years ago. I was never DFd. For many years I felt guilty for not being part of the org. It took me many years after being out to even begin questioning things. When I finally did, I was overwhelmed and confused. I couldn't come to a conclusion and so I categorized anything to do with religion as a big unknown.
Last October I ran into a JW on Halloween, while I was dressed in costume. The JW told my family about the costume and they were greatly upset by it. A short time later, an elder who hadn't talked to me since I stopped going to the hall, left messages asking me to meet with the elders. I ignored the messages despite my family urging me to meet with them. Everyone has since dropped the meeting idea. However, I wanted to know if the elders might pursue DFing despite my being inactive for years. This led me to researching online where I found this forum. This site has been an enormous help in coming to terms with the brainwashing. I also found comic relief in one of the topics posted in 2008 or 2009 about JW terms that we don't miss. It was a funny chain that made me LOL and now I can't find it. Anyway, here I am. I am grateful for this site.
status offlineStormyGirl
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Why hello and welcome! I'm glad to hear that this site has helped you a bit.... Its a good one for sure. Best wishes in your family dealings!
status offlineelsinore777.4womaninthewild...
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Hi and welcome to this site. Yours is a story that I have personally "witnessed",...no pun intended, for the 37 years I was "in". There was a time when young ones that left were left alone. I remember correspondence as I was serving as an elder that we weren't to pursue any action unless those that left were attending again and identifying themselves as a Witness.
Oh how times have changed. Since one of my biggest gripes with the organisation is that they have (IMO) moved on from Christ almost altogether, but have demonstrated increasingly unChristian behavior in attacking those that choose to leave, that I catagorize them as a full-blown cult and if you haven't left, then by all means do so in haste. I wouldn't give what they think or do even a passing thought, because the WTS couldn't be any more irrelevant in the whole scheme of things,....religiously speaking.
I tried to warn as many as I could before I disassociated myself about 8 months ago. I am curious as to what things you were talking about when you said,..."It took me many years after being out to even begin questioning things. When I finally did, I was overwhelmed and confused. I couldn't come to a conclusion and so I categorized anything to do with religion as a big unknown.
Again, congratulations for getting out and i hope I can be of further assistance if you have any questions concerning the organisation, the scriptures or teachings.
Agape,
Ryan
status offlineFiguringitout20
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Thank you for the warm welcome. I was trying to not make my intro too long, but in doing so I was a little vague. When I originally left I still believed it was the truth. As I came to know non-JWs better I realized how sheltered I had been and that there were many logical explanations for many varying beliefs - the existence or non-existence of god, organized religion vs individual worship, was some other non-JW religion actually the truth, is the bible inspired by God and how should it be interpreted and on and on. Basically I'd never considered any other viewpoint outside the org and I was overwhelmed by all the choices once I opened my mind to considering anything was a possibility. Some things that bothered me about the org that made me look elsewhere for truth included non-involvement in politics, college being taboo and women being lesser than men. Over the years I have gradually become less conflicted because I've dropped the notion of one true religion. Ultimately, I decided I do believe in God, but I don't think he'd make everyone find one unpopular way to him.
status offlineFiguringitout20
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Ryan were you still an elder when you were trying to warn others or had you already "stepped down"? I'm curious how many active elders question things.
status offlineFiguringitout20
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Stormygirl thank you for the best wishes too. :)
Last Edited By: Figuringitout20 Mar 8 14 11:39 PM. Edited 1 times.
status offlineelsinore777.4womaninthewild...
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No, I had already stepped aside. I had made up my mind that I was never going to "reach out" again due to the hypocrisy of those I had served with as well as their indifference toward actually shepherding those left in their care. What made matters worse was that I realized they were just a reflection of the hierarchy that was "ruling" over us.
There are many like me, though too afraid of the consequences associated with leaving and being an outcast. The fear of man keeps them in the organisation and since they truly believe that every other religion is actually worse, stay and think Jehovah will settle matters at Armageddon. They fail to understand the parable of the wheat and the weeds.
Ryan
status offlineKBG
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Welcome Fig! Hope we can be of help to you.
I don't know if you will be df'd or not. Halloween costume doesn't sound as juicy as some kind of sexual activity, so, I think that is in your favor. Still they called you. I think a good bit of it depends the individual elders and what they want to pursue. Also how influential your family is and what they would like to have done.
Maybe someone else in the forum will be able to speak to the process used by the elder to Df someone when that someone will not meet with them.
status offlineFiguringitout20
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Fig, my new nickname. :) Agreed, it's not very juicy. Yet my family made a big deal about it. I haven't claimed to be a JW while out. The meeting was supposed to be a shepherding call. Maybe to encourage me to come back? Strange after all these years. I think and hope you're right that they won't pursue DFing. I don't care about not taking to JWs (i already don't anyway), except I do want to be able to talk to my family.
I can't change the past, but I do wish that I hadn't gotten baptized so that DFing couldn't ever be a potential option. At 11 years old, I was way too young to make that decision. Having my own children now, looking back it amazes me that they make all ages listen to the talks, book studies, etc. The topics are especially not age appropriate for little ones.
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Hi there Fig ..... you'll find we tend to shorten or lengthen usernames in here. Because we can! So ... welcome Fig!
I'm one of the walked-out-one-night-and-haven't-gone-back types. I was never baptised so of course can't be booted out for doing anything bad. I didn't do anything bad, which of course makes it difficult for some of the former religious 'friends' shun me ... or know what to do full stop. I wasn't disassociated either ... because I'd just walked out! Funnily enough though ... regardless of my apparent non-status ... my own family shut me out for a few months (I got them back though ... I'm exceptionally stubborn) ... and I've had a mix over the years of people looking the other way when they spot me in the distance, walking across the other side of the road ... or stammering embarrassed and often muffled 'hello ... um ...'! I've always found it amusing to be treated that way and usually go out of my way to call out a very loud and cheery 'hi .....' to those who try and avoid me. I figure if they don't answer me back ... they're embarrassing themselves not me!
I dare say given the chance ... your former group of elders would dearly love to kick you out properly or at least disassociate you formally. It's what some of them like to do ... but not all, which is why we have a few former elders floating about in here. At the tender age of 11 ... you cannot be held responsible for getting yourself baptised. What may help ... is to remember that it is not a legally binding contract and cannot be treated as such. It may mean something to those who are still within the confines of the religion itself but at the end of the day ... it's a religious thing not a legal one. It is so very sad that your parents allowed you to baptise at such a young age, mine have always been against that. Don't blame yourself for what happened ...... 11 is not an age for deciding to take a life long commitment. It's the age where you should have been playing with Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and other fun things. You did what you were led to believe was the right thing at the time ........
However ... baptised and disfellowshipped, formal disassociation or walking out like I did ....... the same shunning tends to apply. In some cases people seem to be treated with more respect when committing the old sin of having sex before marriage or away from the marriage bed (see ... old jdub'isms die hard!!!) ..... for those of us who walk out because we no longer believe .... we're often treated much worse. Goodness me ... we might tell people that life on the outside IS good!!!!!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Hello Fig,Welcome
All I can say, stick around and continue sharing your story and find the humor too. Sometimes, depending upon what forum you read...it's always a good thing because we are a loving bunch of sometimes nutty folksmokes a lot
As you probably already know, Ronnie gives us these icons for having fun with because the topics can get intense at times. whatever and Thank-youSarcasmTake Care, John and Lin
status offlineCacky
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I've heard of others who had been gone for decades who, if someone reported that they did something, they got df'd for it, even after being gone for decades. If you're baptized, you're always at risk for that, no matter how long you had been away. I think they pursue it now a lot more due to fear of those who have left being able to tell those still in what they have learned about the org, so they want those still in to not be able to talk to those who have left. I hope it doesn't happen in your case. I'm sure that call for a shepherding call was just a guise to find out if it were true that you celebrated Halloween, so they could then take action against you. I'd not agree to meet with them if I were you. Also, welcome to the board. It's so nice to have new ones join up.
status offlineMystla
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Welcome! That is a looong time to lurk! I'm glad you've decide to post. smiley: happy I've often wondered how many people read here without ever posting. I hope it's lots and lots. It would be good to know that we can affect the lives of many.
I look forward to getting to know you better. How many kids do you have? Are they of an age to learn about your jw history? What do you teach them about religion?
"The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago; the second best time is now"
-old Chinese proverb
status offlineFiguringitout20
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Andria...a loud and cheery hi. That's so funny! I like what you said about baptism not being a legal binding. While I was in, it was always made to seem that there was no possibility of anyone in the world being as happy as someone in the org. In actuality, I'm definitely happier out. You're right, life outside is indeed good. Granted there are still times when life is difficult, but I never feel hopeless and the org is not the answer that makes things better.
Linda...I love all the little pics. I haven't figured out how to add those yet. Nutty folk? I'll fit right in, lol.
Cacky...you're probably right about the guise. "Shepherding call" is a funny term. I should have met with them and just said "baaa baaa baaa" to anyone question they asked. Haha! But, in seriousness, all the judging the elders do is truly sad.
Mystla...I was cruising various ex JW sites off and on. So, I wasn't lurking here everyday, but I did read plenty and liked the comments on this forum. I have two kids, ages 3 and 6. That's a great question about what to teach kids. I really struggled with that when my first was born, and still do a little. I knew I wasn't going to teach JW beliefs, but I wanted to be able to provide some sort of spiritual guidance. My husband was never in any religion and sometimes feels a little at a loss for that, but he definitely knows he doesn't want JW info taught. Our kids have had some exposure to JW teachings through my family. I am respectful to my family and let them say what they want, but I do limit the kids' exposure to hearing about it. At home we emphasize that there are a lot of different beliefs and that when they are older they can decide what they think. Since I do believe in God, we have talked about God, but not extensively. The whole concept of religion is still a bit too complicated for my oldest and way above my youngest. I really don't feel it's necessary to be part of a religion to learn good values. And sitting through three boring adult meetings a week is IMO unreasonable and too much for kids. I definitely don't have all the answers. I'm still not sure how I'll answer their questions as they get older. I would love to hear from you or anyone else with kids and what you've decided to teach.
status offlinepunkofnice
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Mar 11 14 12:51 AM
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Welcome Fig.
I'm glad you're learning the truth about the 'truth(TM)'.
Join in the fun here and make sure the watchtower(R) cult is well and truly behind you. They only know conditional love. Non JWs are by and large more genuine as friends.
Regards Paul (MDA - Mentally diseased apostate)!
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
status offlineinspecterD
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Hi Fig and welcome to the forum. So happy that you have "made the truth your own". That's what I have said to my sons who have escaped the Borg. LOL Anyway, rest assured you have come to a safe place. I am happy to think that your family hasn't found it important to shun you and your family. Just avoid dealing with the elders and steer clear of Dubbies in general. :) As has been said before, there are elders whose who goal in life is to DF as many as possible to keep the Borg "clean". I have been out approx. 10 years and simply have refused to talk to elders who have come to my door, all one time. It makes things a bit easier if you do not talk to them.
In the mean time enjoy your time here and hope to see more of your posts in the future.
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Hello there Fig and welcome smiley: smile
I started out as a lurker......and look where I've ended up lol!! I didn't have your patience in lurking, but like you I became inactive although still believed I had left the 'truth'
That is a nasty place to be, neither 'in' or 'out'!! Thank goodness for the internet....it wasn't about when I left, so I sort of stewed in my own juice smiley: ohwell But you cannot help but research the doctrines once you are brave enough to do so,and that is such a wonderful moment when you realise that rather than being 'lost', you are actually thinking for yourself for the first time!!
Good to have you here, hope you enjoy your time among the ex-jw 'elite' smiley: wink
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Sam
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
status offlineFiguringitout20
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Paul, lol. Is that a real Watchtower cover about apostates? :) Yeah, I learned the TATT acronym on this forum. I have indeed found more genuine friends outside than in.
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Inspector, I agree, I do avoid the elders. No good could possibly come out of meeting with them. Why subject myself to someone else's judgement. Thanks for b the welcome :)
status offlineFiguringitout20
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Sam, once a lurker and now 16,734 posts later... Go you! :) Thank you for being such a large part of this community. While I was lurking, I remember reading your posts and Andria's posts too. The internet is a wonderful thing to expand knowledge and connect with others. There is no one else that can truly understand what we've been through than us ex JW elites.
status offlinehalf banana
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Hi Figgy, fellow lurker turned poster, welcome to the fray!
As Sam sometimes laments from her personal experience--- just leaving the old organisation is not sufficient, we also have to come to realise TTATT before we get our lives back. Only then comes the freedom from slavery to the Watchtower publishing scam...Great to have you here!
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
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Former Lurker, Now Poster - Here's My Story
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offlineFiguringitout20
Former Lurker, Now Poster - Here's My Story
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Mar 8 14 12:04 PM
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I've been lurking on this site for months and am now finally posting my story. I was raised as a JW and got baptized when I was 11 years old. My grandpa and dad are elders. I faded from the org in my early 20's when I did something against the rules. I didn't want to have to fess up and I didn't want to live a double life. So, I quit. I was also disheartened to see good people being judged as "bad association". The last time I entered a KH was 20 years ago. I was never DFd. For many years I felt guilty for not being part of the org. It took me many years after being out to even begin questioning things. When I finally did, I was overwhelmed and confused. I couldn't come to a conclusion and so I categorized anything to do with religion as a big unknown.
Last October I ran into a JW on Halloween, while I was dressed in costume. The JW told my family about the costume and they were greatly upset by it. A short time later, an elder who hadn't talked to me since I stopped going to the hall, left messages asking me to meet with the elders. I ignored the messages despite my family urging me to meet with them. Everyone has since dropped the meeting idea. However, I wanted to know if the elders might pursue DFing despite my being inactive for years. This led me to researching online where I found this forum. This site has been an enormous help in coming to terms with the brainwashing. I also found comic relief in one of the topics posted in 2008 or 2009 about JW terms that we don't miss. It was a funny chain that made me LOL and now I can't find it. Anyway, here I am. I am grateful for this site.
status offlineStormyGirl
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Why hello and welcome! I'm glad to hear that this site has helped you a bit.... Its a good one for sure. Best wishes in your family dealings!
status offlineelsinore777.4womaninthewild...
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Hi and welcome to this site. Yours is a story that I have personally "witnessed",...no pun intended, for the 37 years I was "in". There was a time when young ones that left were left alone. I remember correspondence as I was serving as an elder that we weren't to pursue any action unless those that left were attending again and identifying themselves as a Witness.
Oh how times have changed. Since one of my biggest gripes with the organisation is that they have (IMO) moved on from Christ almost altogether, but have demonstrated increasingly unChristian behavior in attacking those that choose to leave, that I catagorize them as a full-blown cult and if you haven't left, then by all means do so in haste. I wouldn't give what they think or do even a passing thought, because the WTS couldn't be any more irrelevant in the whole scheme of things,....religiously speaking.
I tried to warn as many as I could before I disassociated myself about 8 months ago. I am curious as to what things you were talking about when you said,..."It took me many years after being out to even begin questioning things. When I finally did, I was overwhelmed and confused. I couldn't come to a conclusion and so I categorized anything to do with religion as a big unknown.
Again, congratulations for getting out and i hope I can be of further assistance if you have any questions concerning the organisation, the scriptures or teachings.
Agape,
Ryan
status offlineFiguringitout20
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Thank you for the warm welcome. I was trying to not make my intro too long, but in doing so I was a little vague. When I originally left I still believed it was the truth. As I came to know non-JWs better I realized how sheltered I had been and that there were many logical explanations for many varying beliefs - the existence or non-existence of god, organized religion vs individual worship, was some other non-JW religion actually the truth, is the bible inspired by God and how should it be interpreted and on and on. Basically I'd never considered any other viewpoint outside the org and I was overwhelmed by all the choices once I opened my mind to considering anything was a possibility. Some things that bothered me about the org that made me look elsewhere for truth included non-involvement in politics, college being taboo and women being lesser than men. Over the years I have gradually become less conflicted because I've dropped the notion of one true religion. Ultimately, I decided I do believe in God, but I don't think he'd make everyone find one unpopular way to him.
status offlineFiguringitout20
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Ryan were you still an elder when you were trying to warn others or had you already "stepped down"? I'm curious how many active elders question things.
status offlineFiguringitout20
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Stormygirl thank you for the best wishes too. :)
Last Edited By: Figuringitout20 Mar 8 14 11:39 PM. Edited 1 times.
status offlineelsinore777.4womaninthewild...
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No, I had already stepped aside. I had made up my mind that I was never going to "reach out" again due to the hypocrisy of those I had served with as well as their indifference toward actually shepherding those left in their care. What made matters worse was that I realized they were just a reflection of the hierarchy that was "ruling" over us.
There are many like me, though too afraid of the consequences associated with leaving and being an outcast. The fear of man keeps them in the organisation and since they truly believe that every other religion is actually worse, stay and think Jehovah will settle matters at Armageddon. They fail to understand the parable of the wheat and the weeds.
Ryan
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Welcome Fig! Hope we can be of help to you.
I don't know if you will be df'd or not. Halloween costume doesn't sound as juicy as some kind of sexual activity, so, I think that is in your favor. Still they called you. I think a good bit of it depends the individual elders and what they want to pursue. Also how influential your family is and what they would like to have done.
Maybe someone else in the forum will be able to speak to the process used by the elder to Df someone when that someone will not meet with them.
status offlineFiguringitout20
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Fig, my new nickname. :) Agreed, it's not very juicy. Yet my family made a big deal about it. I haven't claimed to be a JW while out. The meeting was supposed to be a shepherding call. Maybe to encourage me to come back? Strange after all these years. I think and hope you're right that they won't pursue DFing. I don't care about not taking to JWs (i already don't anyway), except I do want to be able to talk to my family.
I can't change the past, but I do wish that I hadn't gotten baptized so that DFing couldn't ever be a potential option. At 11 years old, I was way too young to make that decision. Having my own children now, looking back it amazes me that they make all ages listen to the talks, book studies, etc. The topics are especially not age appropriate for little ones.
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Hi there Fig ..... you'll find we tend to shorten or lengthen usernames in here. Because we can! So ... welcome Fig!
I'm one of the walked-out-one-night-and-haven't-gone-back types. I was never baptised so of course can't be booted out for doing anything bad. I didn't do anything bad, which of course makes it difficult for some of the former religious 'friends' shun me ... or know what to do full stop. I wasn't disassociated either ... because I'd just walked out! Funnily enough though ... regardless of my apparent non-status ... my own family shut me out for a few months (I got them back though ... I'm exceptionally stubborn) ... and I've had a mix over the years of people looking the other way when they spot me in the distance, walking across the other side of the road ... or stammering embarrassed and often muffled 'hello ... um ...'! I've always found it amusing to be treated that way and usually go out of my way to call out a very loud and cheery 'hi .....' to those who try and avoid me. I figure if they don't answer me back ... they're embarrassing themselves not me!
I dare say given the chance ... your former group of elders would dearly love to kick you out properly or at least disassociate you formally. It's what some of them like to do ... but not all, which is why we have a few former elders floating about in here. At the tender age of 11 ... you cannot be held responsible for getting yourself baptised. What may help ... is to remember that it is not a legally binding contract and cannot be treated as such. It may mean something to those who are still within the confines of the religion itself but at the end of the day ... it's a religious thing not a legal one. It is so very sad that your parents allowed you to baptise at such a young age, mine have always been against that. Don't blame yourself for what happened ...... 11 is not an age for deciding to take a life long commitment. It's the age where you should have been playing with Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and other fun things. You did what you were led to believe was the right thing at the time ........
However ... baptised and disfellowshipped, formal disassociation or walking out like I did ....... the same shunning tends to apply. In some cases people seem to be treated with more respect when committing the old sin of having sex before marriage or away from the marriage bed (see ... old jdub'isms die hard!!!) ..... for those of us who walk out because we no longer believe .... we're often treated much worse. Goodness me ... we might tell people that life on the outside IS good!!!!!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Hello Fig,Welcome
All I can say, stick around and continue sharing your story and find the humor too. Sometimes, depending upon what forum you read...it's always a good thing because we are a loving bunch of sometimes nutty folksmokes a lot
As you probably already know, Ronnie gives us these icons for having fun with because the topics can get intense at times. whatever and Thank-youSarcasmTake Care, John and Lin
status offlineCacky
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I've heard of others who had been gone for decades who, if someone reported that they did something, they got df'd for it, even after being gone for decades. If you're baptized, you're always at risk for that, no matter how long you had been away. I think they pursue it now a lot more due to fear of those who have left being able to tell those still in what they have learned about the org, so they want those still in to not be able to talk to those who have left. I hope it doesn't happen in your case. I'm sure that call for a shepherding call was just a guise to find out if it were true that you celebrated Halloween, so they could then take action against you. I'd not agree to meet with them if I were you. Also, welcome to the board. It's so nice to have new ones join up.
status offlineMystla
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Welcome! That is a looong time to lurk! I'm glad you've decide to post. smiley: happy I've often wondered how many people read here without ever posting. I hope it's lots and lots. It would be good to know that we can affect the lives of many.
I look forward to getting to know you better. How many kids do you have? Are they of an age to learn about your jw history? What do you teach them about religion?
"The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago; the second best time is now"
-old Chinese proverb
status offlineFiguringitout20
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Andria...a loud and cheery hi. That's so funny! I like what you said about baptism not being a legal binding. While I was in, it was always made to seem that there was no possibility of anyone in the world being as happy as someone in the org. In actuality, I'm definitely happier out. You're right, life outside is indeed good. Granted there are still times when life is difficult, but I never feel hopeless and the org is not the answer that makes things better.
Linda...I love all the little pics. I haven't figured out how to add those yet. Nutty folk? I'll fit right in, lol.
Cacky...you're probably right about the guise. "Shepherding call" is a funny term. I should have met with them and just said "baaa baaa baaa" to anyone question they asked. Haha! But, in seriousness, all the judging the elders do is truly sad.
Mystla...I was cruising various ex JW sites off and on. So, I wasn't lurking here everyday, but I did read plenty and liked the comments on this forum. I have two kids, ages 3 and 6. That's a great question about what to teach kids. I really struggled with that when my first was born, and still do a little. I knew I wasn't going to teach JW beliefs, but I wanted to be able to provide some sort of spiritual guidance. My husband was never in any religion and sometimes feels a little at a loss for that, but he definitely knows he doesn't want JW info taught. Our kids have had some exposure to JW teachings through my family. I am respectful to my family and let them say what they want, but I do limit the kids' exposure to hearing about it. At home we emphasize that there are a lot of different beliefs and that when they are older they can decide what they think. Since I do believe in God, we have talked about God, but not extensively. The whole concept of religion is still a bit too complicated for my oldest and way above my youngest. I really don't feel it's necessary to be part of a religion to learn good values. And sitting through three boring adult meetings a week is IMO unreasonable and too much for kids. I definitely don't have all the answers. I'm still not sure how I'll answer their questions as they get older. I would love to hear from you or anyone else with kids and what you've decided to teach.
status offlinepunkofnice
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Welcome Fig.
I'm glad you're learning the truth about the 'truth(TM)'.
Join in the fun here and make sure the watchtower(R) cult is well and truly behind you. They only know conditional love. Non JWs are by and large more genuine as friends.
Regards Paul (MDA - Mentally diseased apostate)!
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
status offlineinspecterD
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Hi Fig and welcome to the forum. So happy that you have "made the truth your own". That's what I have said to my sons who have escaped the Borg. LOL Anyway, rest assured you have come to a safe place. I am happy to think that your family hasn't found it important to shun you and your family. Just avoid dealing with the elders and steer clear of Dubbies in general. :) As has been said before, there are elders whose who goal in life is to DF as many as possible to keep the Borg "clean". I have been out approx. 10 years and simply have refused to talk to elders who have come to my door, all one time. It makes things a bit easier if you do not talk to them.
In the mean time enjoy your time here and hope to see more of your posts in the future.
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Hello there Fig and welcome smiley: smile
I started out as a lurker......and look where I've ended up lol!! I didn't have your patience in lurking, but like you I became inactive although still believed I had left the 'truth'
That is a nasty place to be, neither 'in' or 'out'!! Thank goodness for the internet....it wasn't about when I left, so I sort of stewed in my own juice smiley: ohwell But you cannot help but research the doctrines once you are brave enough to do so,and that is such a wonderful moment when you realise that rather than being 'lost', you are actually thinking for yourself for the first time!!
Good to have you here, hope you enjoy your time among the ex-jw 'elite' smiley: wink
Hugs
Sam
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
status offlineFiguringitout20
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Paul, lol. Is that a real Watchtower cover about apostates? :) Yeah, I learned the TATT acronym on this forum. I have indeed found more genuine friends outside than in.
status offlineFiguringitout20
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Inspector, I agree, I do avoid the elders. No good could possibly come out of meeting with them. Why subject myself to someone else's judgement. Thanks for b the welcome :)
status offlineFiguringitout20
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Sam, once a lurker and now 16,734 posts later... Go you! :) Thank you for being such a large part of this community. While I was lurking, I remember reading your posts and Andria's posts too. The internet is a wonderful thing to expand knowledge and connect with others. There is no one else that can truly understand what we've been through than us ex JW elites.
status offlinehalf banana
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Hi Figgy, fellow lurker turned poster, welcome to the fray!
As Sam sometimes laments from her personal experience--- just leaving the old organisation is not sufficient, we also have to come to realise TTATT before we get our lives back. Only then comes the freedom from slavery to the Watchtower publishing scam...Great to have you here!
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
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status offlineFiguringitout20
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Mar 13 14 2:47 PM
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That is so true. The freedom feels so good.
I'm curious how many members are active on this forum? The welcome has been great!
Has anyone read about the Moonies? When I was a kid I remember JWs making a big deal out of how weird they were, but from what I've heard recently, there are similarities between JWs and Moonies? I'd also like to read Crisis of Conscience, but I've only seen really expensive pricing. I distinctly remember we were in the middle of studying Commentary on James in the book study when they pulled it due to Franz's connection to it. I was only a kid, but I remember thinking the book was less boring than some of the other publications.
Who's glad they don't have to place magazines, make return visits, track not-at-homes, count hours and turn in time slips??! :)
status offlineMystla
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Mar 13 14 6:24 PM
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My kids are ages 5 and 2 1/2 so I'm still figuring out what to tell them about religion. So far I've gone with the "some people believe" angle, which seems to be working. I'm sure more detail will be required as they get older. Most of it is in reference to things my mom and sister say. (jws) Like your husband, my hubby wasn't raised in any religion, so his take on the whole thing is rather laid back. Sounds like you and I have a lot in common. smiley: smile
There are free pdf versions of Crisis of Conscience. I don't have my link any more, and I don't like recommending one unless I know it's safe. Maybe someone else here has a link they know works and doesn't have any bugs? Or, if you are feeling brave, you can google "Crisis of Conscience pdf" and you should find some options.
I still revel in the glee of not having to go out in service any more. I always hated it with a passion. I pioneered for 3 years and dreaded every single minute of it. Except maybe the coffee breaks, depending on who I was with. Of course now days I still get coffee breaks and I get to do it only with people I like! smiley: happy
"The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago; the second best time is now"
-old Chinese proverb
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Like Misty ... I've also gone with the 'some people' thing when it comes to religion and have added 'some people need or want religion ... some people don't need or want it ... and others have yet to make up their minds'. Our boys are 15yrs and 12yrs old now and this has worked well. They don't judge others for having religion in their lives as it's their choice to do so ... but the boys are not keen at all on anyone trying to talk religion to them. My hubby wasn't raised with religion either. He finds it all rather amusing and yet tinged with sadness for those who can't see beyond their religious dogma.
I remember all the hoopla about the Moonies and saw a recent documentary of a bunch of young Moonies off to Korea (?) to get married to other Moonies. The doco was started in the UK and is fairly recent. So they're still out there.
We had the Rajneeshies here in the Great Southern end of Western Australia. Now THEY were very amusing. Lots of orange and purple and pink ... they bought a property in Pemberton which is now a holiday resort. I think of Rajneeshies and instantly hear Ma Prem WhateverHerNameWas saying 'tough titties' to the Australian Press people!!!!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Mystla wrote:
My kids are ages 5 and 2 1/2 so I'm still figuring out what to tell them about religion. ....
Run!!! Run Away!!!
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Misty, we do have a lot in common! I also pioneered for 3 or 4 years and hated it too. I always did my best to get into the car group I wanted to be in, particularly one that was doing return visits rather than door to door in a territory because that meant more driving less preaching. And coffee breaks were the better part of the day. I always thought it was strange that sisters had to wear head coverings to say the prayer for the field service meeting. When I first told my hubby about my pioneering experience he thought the term "pioneering" was funny. So much crazy JW lingo.
I actually did try downloading Crisis of Conscience pdfs some time ago, but none of the links worked.
I was teased by classmates for being a JW when I was a kid. So, the last thing I want is for my kids to tease other poor witness kids that don't know any better. So, I also don't want them judging JWs or non JWs.
Andria, do your boys ask about life after death? My 6 year old asked about that once. Basically I told him I don't know, but some people believe... So, I've used the "some people" too. Having grown up being told absolutes for every single question..."This is the truth." "This is the only correct answer to your question"...It feels strange to tell my kids at times that I don't have the answer. In the long run I hope my boys respect that their parents were willing to admit they don't know everything.
Rajneeshies? Are those like the Hari Krishnas? Tough titties haha!
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Good Morning, Fig.
As far as our children...wish I could give you the answer. I just believe that teaching our children to do research while not shaming is important. Every religion will want you to spin the story their way...and sometimes our children will get confused, just as we did/do. I think it's for just allowing freedom of research and have an open discussion without damning the other.
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Hi Fig and welcome.
I was 'forced' to see the darkness behind the white washed grave as well. Funny, before I was dfed last year I was inactive for almost 20 years before 2008 and I never looked into anything. Still always thought it was the real deal. But when they pushed me out, after I went to them for help and confession, I was shocked and devastated by this decision. Didn't seem like anything any loving God or Jesus would ever do to me ...so it was then that I realized that they were just another form of bablyon the great, world empire of false religion. I now enjoy my own 'examining of the scriptures' and 'test out the expired expressions' I don't need anyone but Jesus and God to help me understand what I am reading.
Glad to see you post and look forward to future postings!
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I'm curious how many members are active on this forum?
Hey Fig - in answer to your question, just copied these figures from the details at the bottom of the home page (under community details)..............so although we all 'come and go' as life allows........and although some have 'moved on', its still a busy and great place to be a part of smiley: smile
Founded: Apr 22 2004
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Of course facebook has claimed a lot of our members, but so long as they pop in here every now and then to update us, we don't count them as 'disassociated' or 'inactive' lol!! smiley: wink
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
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status offlineFiguringitout20
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Bella, I'm sorry to hear about your DFing experience. So much for "loving discipline". More like cruel and unusual punishment. JWs treat DFd people as if they are dead. I don't think most JWs give any thought to how a DFd person feels. They just care that the org is "clean" and believe they are more righteous. However, put them in the exact same life circumstances as the DFd person and there's a good chance they would have followed that same path themselves. I hope you've since found lots of good support. Thanks for the welcome! :)
Solitaire, thanks for the forum usage data. That's interesting info. It is an active forum for sure, with lots of members. No disassociated or inactive statuses - lol! Good to know ;).
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Welcome fig!
I know of one situation that I was pretty close to where a sister left her witness husband and revealed he had been abusing her for years. She divorced him and some in the cong. took her side but many more took his side (big family; lots of "friends" in high places). She got so discouraged from the lack of support that she quit. Couple years later re-married a great "worldly" guy and had a baby. One night they announced at the KH that she was d.f.'d. She swears she never got a phone call or letter or email or anything asking to meet with her. The grand poobah elder in her hall had a vendetta and was determined to oust her.
But as we know, all congs are different. I'm not d.f.'d; just faded, but I still watch my back. God forbid I should be seen coming out of a voting location or be spotted having lunch with my d.f.'d friends or buying Christmas wrapping paper (yes I still hide it under the enormous toilet paper package!). I only care for the same reason you have - I want to be able to talk with my family.
You asked about the Moonies. There's a great book called Combating Cult Mind Control by Steve Hassan. It's a fantastic read and in his case, he was a Moonie, so the whole beginning part of the book talks about the inside of that cult.
Valerie
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Happy, Thanks for the welcome. That's just horrible about the abused wife. WTH, how can they DF without even talking to her? Funny my hubby calls an elder "the grand poobah" too. I know elders that have gotten away with things that others in the past were publicly marked or reprooved for. And since it's a patriarchal system, more often than not it seems the brothers get the better shake and the sisters are just expected to be submissive.
Hiding Xmas paper under the TP. Haha! The first 5-6 years I was out, I was super cautious like that too. Then I wasn't so cautious, but I guess that's how I got caught. So, now I'm back on the down low a bit waiting it out and hoping I'm completely off their radar again.
I'm faithful to my hubby and do my best to instill good values in my children. But, oh I vote for or against things that impact my taxes? My good deeds are wiped out for this grave sin. :-0 Granted, I do more than just vote (probably 75% of what I do is against the rules), but even if all I did was vote they would consider that nullifying everything else good I did in my life. Their priorities are so off!
I have heard much about the book you mention. It sounds interesting and I plan to read it.
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Figuringitout20 wrote:
I was teased by classmates for being a JW when I was a kid. So, the last thing I want is for my kids to tease other poor witness kids that don't know any better. So, I also don't want them judging JWs or non JWs.
Andria, do your boys ask about life after death? My 6 year old asked about that once. Basically I told him I don't know, but some people believe... So, I've used the "some people" too. Having grown up being told absolutes for every single question..."This is the truth." "This is the only correct answer to your question"...It feels strange to tell my kids at times that I don't have the answer. In the long run I hope my boys respect that their parents were willing to admit they don't know everything.
Rajneeshies? Are those like the Hari Krishnas? Tough titties haha!
My kids know what it's like to be teased ... as they are 'different' compared to other kids. They're polite ... sensitive ... friendly ... have an adult sense of humour (hasn't got them into trouble yet smiley: wink ) and they actually care about how other kids feel. We usually tell our kids that it's not nice to be picked on and it's even worse to be the one doing the picking. I've never had an issue of them laughing at other kids or picking on them for any reason. If anything ... they are more likely to step into a situation and stop things from worsening. Must work on them doing that safely!
I don't know the answer to everything either Figness and neither does my husband ..... however ..... we are more than happy to own up to not knowing things and we find the answers together with the kids. Kids are far more adaptable and accepting than we give them credit for!
The life after death question has popped up more than once. The first time I was a little gobsmacked and didn't know what to say ... so I SAID "I don't know what to say ...." then we had a little chat together. My youngest (now 12) asks more 'what's the meaning of life' type questions than his older bro (now 15) ............... he always asks questions so we're well and truly used to it. I let my kids know that no-one knows what happens when someone dies ... as no-one has ever come back to report about it. Kids of 6 will accept that ... perhaps with a few more questions just to clarify ....... it's when they're a little older that they start to dig a little deeper and expect to find answers.
Conor (15yr old) asked me what my 'world view' was the other day ... it's a class assignment for English. I told him that my world view alters from day to day or even hour to hour. I then told him that my world view at his age had been dictated to me by my religious parents and by their religious 'friends' ...... and that I had entirely different views to them and to my friends from school too. I said that his world view would be different to some of his friends because he has a different home life to some of them. We're a very open, honest and relaxed type of tight knit family ... whereas some of his friends come from single-parent families or families where the parents sometimes argue and fight. He has a better understanding now and accepts that his own world view will change along the way too.
Carson (12yr old) will often be chatting away and out will come ... "so mum ....... do you ever wonder why we're here?" ... or "mum ... how do we know we are really here and not a figment of our own imaginations?" That's when I will smile that warm mummy-type smile and will come back with something along the lines of ... 'ahhhhh .... I'm here because I am Carson ...... I don't really care how I got here, I'm just here .... what do YOU think ..." .... or ... "well Carson ...... I guess if I pinch you and you say ouch .... that will mean that you're not a figment of my imagination and I'm not a figment of yours either!"
Kids are glorious little people who love to ask the why's, when's and wherefore's! The more questions they ask ... the brighter and less likely they are to be sucked into the religious vortexes of the world Figgy!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Thank You, Sam, for posting that .
Because I don't do Face Book or whatever else the Internet want me doing....I'm very happy for you sharing that we still have members: new and old that post and share experiences.
Ronnie and you Mods do a wonderful job for keeping this site alive.musical smilieDrink coffeewoohoo Love Lin and John
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Demons saved me
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Demons saved me
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Feb 28 14 10:02 PM
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Hello everyone. I just woke up in late Dec 2013. I haven't been to a meeting this year but will go to the memorial for my husband's sake. I don't have any beliefs right now and I'm learning to be ok with that. It actually feels more humble to say I don't know than to act like I have all the answers. I was diagnosed as bi-polar when I was 19 and I'm 40 something now so I've seen a lot of depression. I was at the lowest point of my life from May of last year until the end of December. I was suicidal and almost successful with an attempt. I'm better now. I'm not suicidal anymore. I found a song in December by Imagine Dragons called Demons. Now, as a JW mom of a teenager I would normally never listen to a song with that title but it saved me. I listened to it many times everyday and I got stronger. During this time I read an article about Candice Conti and then followed other links to other stories of JW abuse and ended up on the internet for 7 straight hours one night reading about everything from the UN scandal to firsthand stories about Bethel. After those 7 hours of 'listening to demons' I shut off the computer, crawled into bed and told my husband I was no longer a JW. A lot has happened in the last 2 months. I've come a long way. There are many more things I want to look into and study but for now I'm content. I feel no pressure to be anything other than me for the first time in my life.
I look forward to making some friends here (because I need some real friends) and telling my sordid tale one day.
Until then I say Listen to DEMONS
Phototrue
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Agree. Very powerful religious symbolism in that music. It pushes my buttons too. Wicked lyrics. Welcome! " Calling out at the mess you made" Classic!
status offlinesolitaire
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Hello there and welcome :-)
ended up on the internet for 7 straight hours
It must have been that way for so many of us!! I remember when I first found this site I was much the same way............it was by accident (although if I was in the old mind set I could say I was 'led' here lol!!!).......I was actually feeling down and remembering and missing those jw's I had loved and were no longer in my life
I googled jw to try and get my 'fix' and, instead of ending up on the jw site, I ended up here smiley: smile Like you I could not drag myself away from the computer...........but the relief at realising I had not left 'the truth', and the wonderful sense of freedom that finally researching the religion brought, was a feeling of euphoria!!
I feel no pressure to be anything other than me for the first time in my life.
And that in itself can be strange to begin with..........we are so used to not measuring up to the jw ideals, of never thinking about ourselves as individals but only as part of the organisation..........that trying to discover who 'we' are can initially be overwhelming...
I am so pleased that you are taking back control of your life....and I am also happy that you found us here!! I am sure that you will enjoy your time here talking with others who truly understand this journey that you are just beginning! Only those with our past experiences can truly relate to what each of us experiences, so I'm sure you will soon feel at home here!!
Look forward to hearing more from you, and getting to know you better.....
Hugs to a fellow survivor
Sam x
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
status offlineKBG
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Phototrue,
Welcome! I'm glad you found us. It is freeing to realize you can be who you are not what others want you to be.
I like Imagine Dragons too.
status offlineVancity
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Welcome Phototrue,
The JW's (and in fact most religions) want...no, they need you to be content with learning only what they teach you. They strongly discourage and "non-JW" reading, particularly that which contradicts their religious dogma. There is an obvious reason for this, in that education is the enemy. The more you learn about how the universe actually works, and read up on what actually happened in history, the further you get away from the JW"s. So, the only question remaining is, are the JW's wrong, or is the entire scientific community lying simply to pull people away from religion? I think you've made the wise choice, just never stop learning.
status offlineStormyGirl
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image Phototrue! Thank you for sharing your story- the glimpse we've gotten to hear thus far.
(That song is one of my favorites!)
So many of us can relate with so much you have spoken of. I personally spent the better part of three months trying to prove all the information I found in the internet was false... and all that did was set in deeper the realization that I had been raised up in the dirty lie of quite a delusional man.... and his followers.
I can also relate with the peace you feel being able to finally find comfort within your own skin so to speak. Always remember that feeling! I hope each new day answers some old questions and brings a speck more peace to you.
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Welcome to the next chapter of your life. smiley: smile Great song. I look forward to getting to know the real you as you discover yourself. smiley: smile
"The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago; the second best time is now"
-old Chinese proverb
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I remember when I first discovered the truth about "the truth," I spent hours and hours on the Internet. I was mezmerized, and shocked and angry at the cult, but couldn't stop researching for awhile. It's really something to have believed something like that was true and to find out otherwise. It's a huge adjustment in life. Anyway, welcome to the board. Nice to meet you.
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Hi there Phototrue and welcome! wave
We are all looking forward to getting to know you more ... and to support you through the good old BORING memorial service. You can go along with a purpose now ... to tell us how you really feel about it afterward! I only ever went to the one memorial after walking out all those years ago. It was to keep my mum happy ... and it was also an added jab in the arm to keep me AWAY from then on. Entertaining though nonetheless!
It's very easy ... as the others have said ... to lose hours of time once you've started your quest for knowledge. It's easy to lose hours just reading the many posts and comments in here too! So remember to pace yourself ... have light refreshments handy ... and don't leave it to the last minute to make a run for the loo! We don't want you leaving 'puddles' on the forum floor now do we! Chuckle
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Welcome to the forum, Phototrue. It's good to see new ones here.
I too found this forum by mistake. My son encouraged me to join an online forum and I originally found one in San Diego but it took so long to connect with someone there. This site is one that is pretty active. Sometimes it is slow but that is seldom. I really appreciated being able to talk to someone in a matter of hours or less rather than days at a time. Enjoy and realize that there are others like yourself and we are here to help. :)
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Yes, we want helping and while doing such, we gain something positive too. This site is a win-win situation.
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I remember reading bethelite stories, pioneer stories, all kinds of stories. I spent many hours doing that kind of reading.
status offlinejwfacts
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Great song, and really nice to read your story. I hope the depression is far less severe and less often, which seems to often be the case once people remove themselves from the guilt the Watchtower imposes. .
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Not to make light of your situation but I have always found this to be true, I hope all works out for you. #13 [-]
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status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Div- I really enjoyed the quote you posted, thanks.
As you mentioned, not to make light of someone's situation, we all have 'demons' to deal with...it's making the mental shift from literal to how we can control our own thinking.
There are times when I'm too negative and I don't want that crap in my life...I consider "negativity' my 'demon' and then take steps to rid myself of such....some of course would think I'm not doing it the way they would have me do such because I'm not doing it their way.
Of course that brings up another subject for why those people think it should be done their way....Oh, because they have the Truthsmiley: eyes
Checking out and getting some sleep before the SUN shows up...Take Care
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