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 31 January 2013Mosiah 18: Mormon, Mormon, Mormon, Mormon, Mormon...
We met Alma last chapter, when he tried to convince King Noah not to kill Abinadi.  It didn't go so well... it ended with King Noah burning Abinadi at the stake, and ordering the death of Alma, too.  Alma managed to escape, and after he did he started preaching to the people in private.
And now, it came to pass that Alma, who had fled from the servants of king Noah, repented of his sins and iniquities, and went about privately among the people, and began to teach the words of Abinadi 18:1
 And many did believe his words. 18:3
Apparently he was a pretty good speaker, and he created quite the following.  He took his followers to a land called Mormon.  It's called "Mormon" because it's infested with wild beasts. Makes sense.
And it came to pass that as many as did believe him did go forth to a place which was called Mormon, having received its name from the king, being in the borders of the land having been infested, by times or at seasons, by wild beasts. 18:4
Alma takes his followers to the Waters of Mormon and baptizes them all.  Then he ordains priests, one for every 50 followers.

Alma and Helam were buried in the water; and they arose and came forth out of the water rejoicing, being filled with the Spirit. 18:14
And again, Alma took another, and went forth a second time into the water, and baptized him according to the first, only he did not bury himself again in the water. 18:15
And after this manner he did baptize every one that went forth to the place of Mormon; and they were in number about two hundred and four souls; yea, and they were baptized in the waters of Mormon, and were filled with the grace of God. 18:16
The priests were required to support themselves, though. Alma didn't want any spoiled priests like Noah had.
18:24 And he also commanded them that the priests whom he had ordained should labor with their own hands for their support.
He also seemed to favor progressive taxation. He demanded little of those with little, and more from those with more to give.
And again Alma commanded that the people of the church should impart of their substance, every one according to that which he had; if he have more abundantly he should impart more abundantly; and of him that had but little, but little should be required; and to him that had not should be given. 18:27
Everything seemed to be going well in the land of Mormon.  They didn't even mind the word "Mormon" back then.  They actually seem to use it an amazing amount.
And now it came to pass that all this was done in Mormon, yea, by the waters of Mormon, in the forest that was near the waters of Mormon; yea, the place of Mormon, the waters of Mormon, the forest of Mormon, how beautiful are they to the eyes of them who there came to the knowledge of their Redeemer; yea, and how blessed are they, for they shall sing to his praise forever. 18:30
 Of course, nowadays you are supposed to call them "Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints".  You could turn this verse into a whole page if you did that!
Everything was good until King Noah sends out spies and found out about them.  Of course, Noah sent his army out to destroy them, and they fled into the wilderness, as usual.
But behold, it came to pass that the king, having discovered a movement among the people, sent his servants to watch them. Therefore on the day that they were assembling themselves together to hear the word of the Lord they were discovered unto the king.  18:32
And now the king said that Alma was stirring up the people to rebellion against him; therefore he sent his army to destroy them. 18:33 
And it came to pass that Alma and the people of the Lord were apprised of the coming of the king's army; therefore they took their tents and their families and departed into the wilderness. 18:34
Earlier we learned that there were 200 followers of Alma, but 450 people flee from King Noah's army.  It must have been hard to depart in the wilderness with so many small children, but I'm sure they are used to it.  




Posted by Philip Wells at 1/31/2013 05:47:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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1 comment:
 Stephen said...
Of course, nowadays you are supposed to call them "Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints". You could turn this verse into a whole page if you did that!
Sort of counteracting all the "and it came to pass"es, like Mark Twain said.
:-)
Steve
Fri Feb 01, 06:19:00 PM 2013 
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 26 January 2013Mosiah 16-17: The end of Abinadi
Chapter 16 wraps up Abinadi's speech, and thankfully, it's the last we'll have to hear from him  He continues with the usual threats (but this time quoting language from Matthew 22:13):
And then shall the wicked be cast out, and they shall have cause to howl, and weep, and wail, and gnash their teeth; and this because they would not hearken unto the voice of the Lord; therefore the Lord redeemeth them not. 16:2
But there will also be rewards for the righteous:
If they be good, to the resurrection of endless life and happiness; and if they be evil, to the resurrection of endless damnation, being delivered up to the devil, who hath subjected them, which is damnation -- 16:11
And, one last time, he calls for the sinners to repent (or at least tremble):
And now, ought ye not to tremble and repent of your sins, and remember that only in and through Christ ye can be saved? 16:13
King Noah doesn't listen. Instead, it came to pass that he commanded his priests to kill Abinadi.
 And now it came to pass that when Abinadi had finished these sayings, that the king commanded that the priests should take him and cause that he should be put to death. 17:1
But his words were not spoken in vain. There was at least one who heard him. He was a descendant of Nephi, and his name was Alma.
But there was one among them whose name was Alma, he also being a descendant of Nephi. And he was a young man, and he believed the words which Abinadi had spoken, for he knew concerning the iniquity which Abinadi has testified against them; therefore he began to plead with the king that he would not be angry with Abinadi, but suffer that he might depart in peace.  17:2 
But King Noah's mind was made up. He was going to kill Abinadi, and now he was going to kill Alma, too.
But the king was more wroth, and caused that Alma should be cast out from among them, and sent his servants after him that they might slay him.17:3
But Alma got away from Noah's priests, and he hid in the woods for a few days. Noah threw Abinadi in prison, and then brought him out to hear his sentence: Death. Abinadi held to his words, and threatens Noah one more time.
Now Abinadi said unto him: I say unto you, I will not recall the words which I have spoken unto you concerning this people, for they are true; and that ye may know of their surety I have suffered myself that I have fallen into your hands. 17:9 
Yea, and I will suffer even until death, and I will not recall my words, and they shall stand as a testimony against you. And if ye slay me ye will shed innocent blood, and this shall also stand as a testimony against you at the last day. 17:10
This almost scares King Noah enough to release Abinadi.  But then his priests goad him on, and he is forced to burn Abinadi to death.  That's how it goes sometimes.

And now king Noah was about to release him, for he feared his word; for he feared that the judgments of God would come upon him.17:11  
But the priests lifted up their voices against him, and began to accuse him, saying: He has reviled the king. Therefore the king was stirred up in anger against him, and he delivered him up that he might be slain.17:12 
And it came to pass that they took him and bound him, and scourged his skin with faggots, yea, even unto death. 17:13
While he was burning, he cursed them pretty good.  He covers all of his the basics: they will be burned, afflicted with disease, hunted by their enemies...
 Ye shall be afflicted with all manner of diseases because of your iniquities. 17:16
Ye shall be hunted, and ye shall be taken by the hand of your enemies, and then ye shall suffer, as I suffer, the pains of death by fire. 17:18
Thus God executeth vengeance upon those that destroy his people. O God, receive my soul. 17:19
So Abinadi died, sealing the truth of his words by his death.  (Don't worry, it didn't make sense to me, either)
And now, when Abinadi had said these words, he fell, having suffered death by fire; yea, having been put to death because he would not deny the commandments of God, having sealed the truth of his words by his death. 17:20


Posted by Philip Wells at 1/26/2013 06:34:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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6 comments:
 Stephen said...
"So Abinadi died, sealing the truth of his words by his death. (Don't worry, it didn't make sense to me, either)"
Well, it sure makes it hard for him to take back his words... if that's not "sealed", I don't know what IS!
:-)
Steve Weeks
Mon Jan 28, 04:18:00 AM 2013 
 Ben said...
I was reading in the BOM the other night and read this passage and the first thing I thought of was this blog.
"For the things which some men esteem to be of great worth, both to the body and soul, others set at naught and trample under their feet. Yea, even the very God of Israel do men trample under their feet; I say, trample under their feet but I would speak in other words—they set him at naught, and hearken not to the voice of his counsels." 1 Nephi 19:7
Now I don't post this scripture as an indictment at all, in fact, more than anything I wonder what things have happened in our lives that have led us to the different perspectives that we have.


Tue Jan 29, 08:44:00 AM 2013 
 Stephen said...
Ben, some of us learned to depend on evidence for our world-views instead of dogmas bequeathed us by our parents or found in "holy" scriptures. Some of the stuff in the bible is common sense and worth taking seriously, and some is superstitious nonsense. I was in church school at the age of nine and realized that much of what I was being taught couldn't possibly be true. Now, 53 years later, I still haven't seen any reason to change my mind.
The passage you quoted could be paraphrased "to each his own" (fewer words!). This is common sense. If you then proceed to list the bad things that happen to people who "set him (god) at naught", you are in the superstitious nonsense department. 1 Nephi 19:14 says:
"And because they turn their hearts aside, saith the prophet, and have despised the Holy One of Israel, they shall wander in the flesh, and perish, and become a hiss and a byword, and be hated among all nations."
I've been turning my heart aside from this crap all my life, and have never been hissed, byworded or hated. I don't know what "wandering in the flesh" means, but if it means what I think it does, all I can say is I've been faithful to the same (only) wife for over 30 years, and have two bright, healthy, successful and skeptical children.
As to "why" we have these differing perspectives... I would suspect that you, my friend, have drunk the proverbial Kool-Aid. ;-)
Steve Weeks
Tue Jan 29, 12:34:00 PM 2013 
 Stephen said...
Oh, come on, Ben. Why do *you* think we have such different perspectives? If it's anything other than that we grew up in families with different religious outlooks, I'd like to know.
Steve Weeks
Thu Jan 31, 05:55:00 AM 2013 
 Ben said...
I find it interesting that opponents of religion are so easy to assume that believers have blindly followed the prevailing assumptions of their upbringing.
Please don't make that same assumption with me. I've asked the hard questions, I've found my answers, and others I'm still waiting on. The one principle that will always separate believers and non-believers if faith. Some just can't move on without proof and seeing for themselves, others can.
One question, are you as critical towards your government as you are towards religion? I wonder what your thoughts are on 9/11, The Gulf of Tonkin,The Federal Reserve...I hope you are just as skeptical towards man and the good old USA as you are towards religion, the Mormon religion at least.
Mon Feb 04, 07:55:00 AM 2013 
 Stephen said...
I don't know that I'd call that "moving on". ^_^
Proof is hard to find, but it's often easy to find plausible evidence. I imagine plausible evidence can be a problem for the "true" believer; not only for Mormonism, but any religion. A good example is the theory of evolution by natural selection which, along with well-established genetic evidence, establishes humans as having a series of common ancestors with all life on earth. These pretty much do away with the concept of "Adam and Eve" without which the doctrine of "original sin" fails.
But aside from that, I am not really "anti" religion. It puzzles me exceedingly that other folks seem to believe nonsense, but I don't lose sleep over it; neither do I go out of my way to criticize... only on a blog like this one.
The "assumption" that religious people have adopted the worldviews of their parents or families is not unreasonable, because that is exactly how many (I won't say "most", though I think it likely) people come to their beliefs. Do you really think if you had been born in the middle east that you would have found your way to the Mormon church?
What I *do* object to about many religious people is their tendency (rather strong in Mormons) to try to share their faith with others. I don't want people coming to my door with bibles, tracts, warnings and such. I don't want them getting involved with government... at least, not unless their churches pay taxes.
Actually, I tend to be less skeptical about things I know actually exist. I try to follow the news and think about what is happening. Luckily, it's a lot harder to pull the wool over peoples' eyes today than it was in the early 19th century. Don't tell me you're a 9/11 "truther"! ;-)
Steve Weeks
Mon Feb 04, 06:38:00 PM 2013 
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 24 January 20132 Machabees 9: God killed Antiochus with an incurable bowel disease
I'm in the process of adding the Apocrypha (or Deuterocanonical books) to the SAB, highlighting and annotating as I go along. In 2 Machabees 9, I came across the story of Antiochus.
Anitochus was a Seleucid king who, according to 2 Machabees, mistreated the Jews. So God paid him back by giving him "an incurable and invisible plague" that caused "a dreadful pain in his bowels ... and bitter torments of the inner parts."
The Lord the God of Israel ... struck him with an incurable and an invisible plague ... a dreadful pain in his bowels came upon him, and bitter torments of the inner parts. 2 Machabees 9:5
While Antiochus suffered from his God-given bowel disease, worms swarmed out of his body, "his flesh fell off, and the filthiness of his smell was noisome." No one could get near him because of the "intolerable stench." It got so bad, in fact, that Antiochus couldn't even "abide his own stench."
Worms swarmed out of the body of this man, and whilst he lived in sorrow and pain, his flesh fell off, and the filthiness of his smell was noisome.
The man that thought a little before he could reach to the stars of heaven, no man could endure to carry, for the intolerable stench.
Being admonished by the scourge of God, his pains increasing every moment.
He himself could not now abide his own stench. 9:9-12
As you can probably imagine, this was getting annoying to Antiochus. So he did what any wicked man would do in his situation: he became a Jew and begged God to stop tormenting him.
Then this wicked man prayed to the Lord ... to obtain mercy.
...
Yea also, that he would become a Jew himself, and would go through every place of the earth, and declare the power of God. 9:13-17
But God didn't stop. Antiochus "died a miserable death" from his God-given bowel disease
Thus the murderer and blasphemer, being grievously struck ... died a miserable death. 9:28
Or did he?
There's another story about Antiochus's death in the same book. In this one, Antiochus is smashed with stones as he entered the temple in Jerusalem. His head is cut off and his body chopped into pieces -- all with God's help and blessing, of course.
When Antiochus was come in: and opening a secret entrance of the temple, they cast stones and slew the leader, and them that were with him, and hewed them in pieces, and cutting off their heads they threw them forth. Blessed be God in all things, who hath delivered up the wicked. 2 Machabees 1:16-17
Although neither story is true, both give God the credit, so so will I.

(There's another account of Antiochus's death in 1 Machabees 6:1-16, in which he is scared to death by the Jews, without any clear involvement from God. No mention is made of bowels, worms, stench, dropped stones, decapitation, or dismemberment.)
25 Jan 13 note: Added How did Antiochus die? to the contradictions.
Posted by Steve Wells at 1/24/2013 04:31:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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6 comments:
 clubschadenfreude said...
Good to see someone doing the apocrypha. I'm not nearly as familiar with those as I am the regular bible. Thanks for your hard work.
Fri Jan 25, 10:01:00 AM 2013 
 Steve Wells said...
Thanks clubschadenfreude.
It's more fun than I thought it'd be. There's some crazy, nasty stuff in the Apocrypha!
Fri Jan 25, 10:38:00 AM 2013 
 Ccq said...
I respect your work, but you missed some fact cheching. History knows a lot of kings named Antiochus:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiochus
Fri Feb 08, 01:20:00 PM 2013 
 Stephen said...
Ccq said...
"I respect your work, but you missed some fact cheching. History knows a lot of kings named Antiochus..."
I respect your comment, but you missed some spell *checking*. ;-)
So... which one of those kings dod god kill? Maybe more than one of them! What fun!
Steve Weeks

Sun Feb 10, 07:05:00 PM 2013 
 Ccq said...
Now that I tried to figure the kings out, it seems to me that both Maccabees do tell about the same Antiochus! Really amusing. Apparently 2 Maccabees is anyway written some 100 years later than the 1st, and after a 100 years the old story was retold with the "new" details.
Mon Feb 11, 03:21:00 PM 2013 
 Steve Wells said...
Yes, I think you're right about that, Ccq. 2 Machabees repeats many of the same stories that are found in 1 Machabbees, after changing the details -- which means I have some contradictions to add at the SAB.
Tue Feb 12, 01:03:00 PM 2013 
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 20 January 2013Mosiah 15: O, how beautiful upon the mountains are their feet!
In Mosiah 15, Abinadi continues his speech.  He's done quoting Isaiah, and now he's getting to the important bit about Jesus and God, who are the same guy as it turns out.  Here we go:
Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people. 15:1 
And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son. 15:2
The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son 15:3
And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth. 15:4
And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God... 15:5
In case you didn't get enough Isaiah last chapter, Abinadi has sprinkled some more of this wise book into his speech:
 And these are they who have published peace, who have brought good tidings of good, who have published salvation; and said unto Zion: Thy God reigneth!15:14
And now he starts talking about the folks who are spreading the word about God.  They must have had some nice feet, because he just can't stop talking about it.

 And O how beautiful upon the mountains were their feet! 15:15
Lets hear it once more!  (In case you missed it)
And again, how beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of those that are still publishing peace! 15:16
One more time, with feeling!
And again, how beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of those who shall hereafter publish peace, yea, from this time henceforth and forever! 15:17 
But wait!  That's not all! 
And behold, I say unto you, this is not all. For O how beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that is the founder of peace, yea, even the Lord, who has redeemed his people; yea, him who has granted salvation unto his people. 15:18

One day, everyone on the planet will have heard the teachings of the Mormons. (This is why they have so many missionaries out there...)   
And now I say unto you that the time shall come that the salvation of the Lord shall be declared to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people. 15:28
Then he finishes up the chapter with a few more quotes from Isaiah 52:
Yea, Lord, thy watchmen shall lift up their voice; with the voice together shall they sing; for they shall see eye to eye, when the Lord shall bring again Zion. 15:29
Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem; for the Lord hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem. 15:30
The Lord hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God. 15:31

Posted by Philip Wells at 1/20/2013 05:23:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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1 comment:
 Stephen said...
Wow! A foot fetishist in the BoM... who'd 'a thunk it?
At least, in that dry climate, they wouldn't have had much of a problem with "Prophet's Foot". ;-)
Steve Weeks
Mon Jan 21, 06:19:00 PM 2013 
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 16 January 2013God is as strong as a unicorn (You can't prove a negative)

"God ... is as strong as a unicorn." Numbers 23:22
Believers (and many skeptics) often say that you can't disprove the existence of God because you can't prove a negative.
But if that is true for God, isn't it also true for unicorns?
How do we know that unicorns don't exist?
(How could God be stronger than a nonexistent being?)

For these and other important questions, see Stephen Law's post, "You Can't Prove a Negative".
Posted by Steve Wells at 1/16/2013 09:41:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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8 comments:
 Hausdorff said...
I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that unicorns in the bible are referring to single horned a rhinoceros as opposed to a 2 horned rhinoceros.
Fri Jan 18, 12:33:00 PM 2013 
 Stephen said...
Yes, and maybe the "behemoth" is a dinosaur! (Job 40:15-16)
So god must be real!! ;-)
Steve Weeks
Sat Jan 19, 04:09:00 PM 2013 
 Hausdorff said...
I was more thinking that there are plenty of ridiculous things in the bible. If there is a good explanation for the unicorn thing why focus on it?
Sun Jan 20, 07:58:00 AM 2013 
 Steve Wells said...
Believers have "good explanations" for all of the ridiculous things in the bible, Hausdorff. Cockatrices, satyrs, leviathans, fiery flying serpents, talking serpents and donkeys - and unicorns. All of these mythical creature were considered real at the time they were written and believed to be real until modern science showed they were not. Since then, believers have come up with "good explanations" to explain away the more obvious bullshit that they previously believed.
Sun Jan 20, 10:22:00 AM 2013 
 Sabio Lantz said...
My post today talks about a pragmatic atheism. Sure, skepticism my reach down deeply. Sure, disproving anything is hard, if not impossible. But I can have enough counter evidence to practically (pragmatically) decide to act as if I am certain of something which I can not disprove. The question is, where we draw that line and why.
The Unicorn always is a handy critter for these sorts of conversations.
Sun Jan 20, 11:46:00 AM 2013 
 Hausdorff said...
You may be right, but given that the latin name for the indian rhinocerous is Rhinoceros unicornis, it seems to lend credence to the idea that the unicorns in the bible were referring to them. Is that what was really meant? I don't know, but for myself, I prefer to focus on the other mythical creatures that you mentioned.
Sun Jan 20, 12:08:00 PM 2013 
 Steve Wells said...
I understand, Hausdorff. And you may be right - although I don't think the species name for the Indian Rhinoceros provides much evidence.
And I suppose if God exists, he may well be as strong as a unicorn, whether mythical or real. Heck, I bet he's even stronger than a unicorn!
Sun Jan 20, 12:37:00 PM 2013 
 Mike said...
King James's translators may have slipped up on the whole unicorn thing, but every other word in the Bible is exactly as God wanted it. Except for the parts about infanticide. Oh, and the two creation myths that don't match. But that's it! Oh, and the lifespans of Adam through Noah, God was just blowing smoke on those. But the rest is all 100% absolutely true...ish.
Sun Jan 20, 04:55:00 PM 2013 
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 12 January 2013Mosiah 14: A Complete Waste of a Golden Plate
In the last chapter, Mosiah 13, Abinadi was busy lecturing Noah and his priests about the 10 Commandments.  Without explanation, he starts quoting his favorite book of the bible, Isaiah (chapter 53).
I would call it plagiarism, but he did cite his source.
Yea, even doth not Isaiah say: Who hath believed our report, and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed? 4.1
Mosiah must have had a pretty good memory, though, to directly quote the King James Version of the Bible (Which wouldn't be translated for another 1,700+ years...)
So after this speech was written on plates, Joseph Smith did a pretty good job translating it, since it is a word-for-word duplicate of the King James Version of Isaiah 53.  (Not to mention the fact that the translators of the KJV were 100% accurate).  To translate so accurately, Joseph Smith must have had a pretty good knowledge of reformed Egyptian.  I don't know that much about it, mainly because it doesn't exist.
Here's the rest of Mosiah 14 (or Isaiah 53) in case anyone out there is interested or suffering from insomnia and needs to be put to sleep.
For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of dry ground; he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him there is no beauty that we should desire him.
14:2
He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 14.3
Surely he has borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows; yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 14:4
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 14:5
All we, like sheep, have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquities of us all. 14:6
He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb so he opened not his mouth. 14:7
He was taken from prison and from judgment; and who shall declare his generation? For he was cut off out of the land of the living; for the transgressions of my people was he stricken. 14:8
And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no evil, neither was any deceit in his mouth. 14:9
Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief; when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. 14:10
He shall see the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied; by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 14:11
Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death; and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bore the sins of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. 14:12
If you made it this far, you might be saying to yourself, "Sounds like he's talking about Jesus!"  Well, you're not the first one.  Christian apologists often claim that Isaiah is talking about Jesus here, but Jewish people think he is actually talking about Israel.
Either way, it seems strangely out of place in the middle of Abinadi's speech.


Posted by Philip Wells at 1/12/2013 03:44:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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6 comments:
 Stephen said...
And yet they say this is the fastest-growing faith in the US. Barnum was right.
Also, it's clear that JS Bach wrote the lyrics to "The Messiah" from Mosiah, not Isaiah, since the former is so much older. ;-)
Steve weeks
Sat Jan 12, 06:08:00 PM 2013 
 Ben said...
I find this to be one of the most powerful sections of the Book of Mormon/Bible. I guess you find what you are looking for.
Mon Jan 14, 08:00:00 AM 2013 
 Stephen said...
Ben said...
"I find this to be one of the most powerful sections of the Book of Mormon/Bible. I guess you find what you are looking for."
It's powerful, all right... as a laxative. And, speaking of bullshit, how did this document, supposedly written over 1700 years before the King James bible, contain that bible's exact text?
Steve Weeks
Mon Jan 14, 08:51:00 AM 2013 
 Alex said...
19th century man translating plates into 17th century English.
Seems legit.
Tue Jan 15, 09:43:00 AM 2013 
 Ben said...
Stephen,
I'm assuming it was copied from the Plates of Brass.
Mon Jan 21, 07:41:00 AM 2013 
 Stephen said...
Ben said...
"I'm assuming it was copied from the Plates of Brass."
Ben, you know what they say about what happens when you assume... (hint: "ass.u.me").
What was copied from the (imaginary) "plates of brass"? The text of the KJV? There's better evidence it was the other way around.
Steve Weeks
Tue Jan 22, 06:00:00 PM 2013 
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 11 January 2013President Obama should follow Kyrsten Sinema's example: Swear on the Constitution, not the Bible
On January 20th, President Obama will be sworn in to his second term in office on a stack of Bibles -- using Michelle's family Bible, the Bible Abraham Lincoln used in his first inaugural, and Martin Luther King's Bible.
Which, of course, is triply ridiculous.
As Lawrence O'Donnell so rightly said in his January 10th "Rewrite",
The president, following one of our most absurd traditions in the government that invented the separation of church and state, will put his hand on this book filled with things he does not believe, filled with things that no one in the United States of America believes, and with his hand on this book he will recite the oath of office. And his hand on this book is actually supposed to make you believe that he really believes what he is saying in the oath of office even though the book is filled with things that you and he do not believe.

Wouldn't it be better for the president to be sworn with his hand on the same document that he swears to preserve, protect, and defend in his inaugural oath -- the U.S. Constitution?
That's what the newly-elected Rep. Kyrsten Sinema (D-AZ) did when she took her oath of office.


President Obama should go and do likewise.
Posted by Steve Wells at 1/11/2013 08:21:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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3 comments:
 Jim Thompson said...
Wow, that was a take down
Fri Jan 11, 08:56:00 AM 2013 
 Stephen said...
I can't think of a better way to whip the christian "right" into a white-hot lather. We all know the basis for the U.S. government is the bible, not the Constitution! ;-)
Steve Weeks
Sun Jan 13, 06:14:00 AM 2013 
 Unknown said...
Even sillier if we recall James 5:12.
Fri Jan 18, 06:27:00 PM 2013 
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 07 January 2013A Jefferson Bible for the Twenty-first Century
A Jefferson Bible For the Twenty-First Century
The American Humanist Association has just published a new book -- A Jefferson Bible for the Twenty-first Century. It includes the entire text of the original "Jefferson Bible," along with lists of the best and the worst passages from the Gospels, Hebrew scriptures, Book of Mormon, Quran, the Bhagavadgita, and Buddhist sutras.
Thomas Jefferson created "The Jefferson Bible" (or, as he called it, "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth") by cutting the best verses of the gospels and pasting them into one coherent story. He removed all of the miracles and traces of the supernatural, including the virgin birth and resurrection, and only included the best teachings of Jesus, leaving behind the more nasty stuff. Here is how he described it:
I have performed this operation for my own use, by cutting verse by verse out of the printed book, and arranging the matter which is evidently his [Jesus's], and which is as easily distinguishable as diamonds in a dunghill. The result is an octavo of forty-six pages, of pure and unsophisticated doctrines.
The AHA's new book is well worth the price for its inclusion of the Jefferson Bible alone. And the lists of the best and worst in each of the (supposedly) holy books are extremely useful.
I was, however, a bit disappointed by the lists. They were quite short (3 or 4 pages in each list) and they seemed to leave out many verses that should have been included, and to include many that should have been left out
Of course, lists of this nature are necessarily subjective; what seems bad to one person may seem good to another. Still, there are thousands of bad verses in the Bible and hundreds of good ones (with similar, though somewhat smaller, numbers for the Quran and Book of Mormon). So it seems to me that three dozen or so of the "best" (or "worst") verses should, at the very least, seem good (or bad) to everyone.
Here, for example, are some of the book's more questionable "best" and "worst" selections from the Bible, Quran, and Book of Mormon.
The worst from the gospels?
John answered and said, A man can receive nothing except it be given him from heaven. John 3:27  (OK, this verse is absurd. But is it one of the worst?)
The best of the Hebrew Bible?
The first five passages in the "Best of the Hebrew Bible" are from Genesis (13:8; 18:22-25; 33:3-4, 8-11; 39:7-9; 50:18-21). I don't see much good in them (or anything else in Genesis, for that matter).
And Moses chose able men out of all Israel, and made them heads over the people, rulers of thousands, rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens. And they judged the people at all seasons: the hard causes they brought unto Moses, but every small matter they judged themselves. Exodus 18:25-26 (That's nice, but is it that nice?)
The worst of the Hebrew Bible?
Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard. Leviticus 19:27
Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woollen and linen together. Deuteronomy 22:11
(OK, these are silly rules, but  do they belong on the top 40 list of worst passages in the Old Testament?)
The best of the Quran? (I guess these are good. I'll take their word for it.)
And let not thy hand be chained to thy neck nor open it with a complete opening, lest thou sit down rebuked, denuded. 17:29
Lo! with hardship goeth ease. 94:6
The worst of the Quran? (The AHA made a good selection here. Of course, there is a lot to choose from.)
The best of the Book of Mormon?
Now, he says that the Lord has talked with him, and also that angels have ministered unto him. But behold, we know that he lies unto us; and he tells us these things, and he worketh many things by his cunning arts, that he may deceive our eyes, thinking, perhaps, that he may lead us away into some strange wilderness; and after he has led us away, he has thought to make himself a king and a ruler over us, that he may do with us according to his will and pleasure. And after this manner did my brother Laman stir up their hearts to anger. 1 Nephi 16:38
Now it is not common that the voice of the people desireth anything contrary to that which is right; but it is common for the lesser part of the people to desire that which is not right; therefore this shall ye observe and make it your law -- to do your business by the voice of the people. Mosiah 29:26
For as their laws and their governments were established by the voice of the people, and they who chose evil were more numerous than they who chose good, therefore they were ripening for destruction, for the laws had become corrupted. Helaman 5:2
The worst of the Book of Mormon?
Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils; for wherein is he to be accounted of? 2 Nephi 12:22
What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God. Alma 42:25
O how great is the nothingness of the children of men; yea, even they are less than the dust of the earth. Helaman 12:7
Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature? 3 Nephi 13:27
Still, the lists in the book were useful to me, since there were quite a few verses that I hadn't yet marked in the SAB. And while they wouldn't make my best and worst lists, they they are worth highlighting, and I have since done so.
Here are the new additions to the SAB that I found in the book:
Bad stuff in the gospels:
John answered and said, A man can receive nothing except it be given him from heaven. John 3:27
Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. Matthew 15:13
Good stuff the Hebrew Bible:
If thy brother be waxen poor, and fallen in decay with thee; then thou shalt relieve him: yea, though he be a stranger, or a sojourner; that he may live with thee. Leviticus 25:35
Cursed be he that perverteth the judgment of the stranger, fatherless, and widow. And all the people shall say, Amen. Deuteronomy 27:18
Cursed be he that perverteth the judgment of the stranger, fatherless, and widow. And all the people shall say, Amen. Deuteronomy 27:19
The path of the just is as the shining light. Psalm 4:18
Fools die for want of wisdom. Proverbs 10:21
There is that maketh himself rich, yet hath nothing: there is that maketh himself poor, yet hath great riches. Proverbs 13:7
Better is it that thou shouldest not vow, than that thou shouldest vow and not pay. Ecclesiastes 5:5
Bad stuff in the Hebrew Bible:
Of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it. Genesis 2:17
Bad stuff in the Quran:
Make not Allah, by your oaths, a hindrance to ... making peace among mankind. 2:224
If the debtor is in straitened circumstances, then (let there be) postponement to (the time of) ease. 2:280
Good stuff in the Book of Mormon:
Teach them to never be weary of good works. Alma 37:34
See that ye are not lifted up unto pride; yea, see that ye do not boast in your own wisdom, nor of your much strength. Alma 38:11
Ye should do alms unto the poor; but take heed that ye do not your alms before men to be seen of them ... ye shall do your alms do not sound a trumpet before you. 3 Nephi 13:1-2
Whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them. 3 Nephi 14:12
Why do ye ... suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not? Mormon 8:39
Bad stuff in the Book of Mormon:
For I say unto you that whatsoever is good cometh from God, and whatsoever is evil cometh from the devil. Alma 5:40
Alma cried unto the Lord, saying: O Lord our God, have mercy on this man, and heal him according to his faith which is in Christ. And when Alma had said these words, Zeezrom leaped upon his feet, and began to walk. Alma 15:10-11
On the whole, it's an interesting book that would be a useful addition to anyone's library.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10 Jan 13 update: The American Humanist Association is sending a copy of this book to President Obama and all 535 members of Congress.
17 Jan 13: Todd Stiefel President of the Stiefel Freethought Foundation discusses "A Jefferson Bible for the Twenty-First Century."
Also available at the Apple book store
Posted by Steve Wells at 1/07/2013 05:00:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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4 comments:
 Stephen said...
Hmmm... I don't know. I've got a copy of the Jefferson Bible with an introduction by Forrest Church and an afterword by Jaroslav Pelikan. Included are some actual reproductions of some pages from Jefferson's original work. The introduction and the afterword are as interesting as the redacted gospels.
Based on what you've included of the "best of..." and "worst of...", I'd say the SAB does a better job. Not only is there "best" and "worst", but you've got all the other categories... IMO, a much more versatile reference.
Steve Weeks
Tue Jan 08, 08:53:00 PM 2013 
 doomcup said...
Shouldn't that be Good Stuff in the Quran?
Fri Jan 11, 02:03:00 AM 2013 
 Steve Wells said...
doomcup,
I'm not sure I understand your question. But the reason I didn't have anything under "Good Stuff in the Quran" was that there was nothing on the book's list that wasn't already marked good in the SAQ.
Fri Jan 11, 11:06:00 AM 2013 
 doomcup said...
Steve
I followed the links, and the passages they hilighted showed thumbs up. I guess that's what threw me.
Sat Jan 12, 10:22:00 AM 2013 
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 02 January 2013Mosiah 12-13: Abinadi's Trial
Chapter 12 starts out telling us that Abinadi has somehow managed to remain hidden from Noah's guards for 2 years, and and then he came back in disguise, to prophesy again to the people. He blew his cover awfully quick, though.  He quoted the Lord, and unfortunately the Lord used his name directly.  (Shoot!  I put on a fake mustache and everything!)
And it came to pass that after the space of two years that Abinadi came among them in disguise, that they knew him not, and began to prophesy among them, saying: Thus has the Lord commanded me, saying -- Abinadi, go and prophesy unto this my people, for they have hardened their hearts against my words. 12:1
Abinadi says that the Lord says that "this generation" will be killed and their dead bodies fed to the vultures, dogs, and wild beasts. God will strap loads on their backs like they were a bunch of dumb asses, make them howl all day long, send hail to smite them and insects to pester them, and then he'll kill them all with disease and starvation. When God gets done with them there will be nothing left but the "record they shall leave behind them" (written on golden or brass plates, no doubt).
Thus saith the Lord, it shall come to pass that this generation ... shall be slain; and the vultures of the air, and the dogs, yea, and the wild beasts, shall devour their flesh. 12:2
And it shall come to pass that I will smite this my people with sore afflictions, yea, with famine and with pestilence; and I will cause that they shall howl all the day long. 12:4
I will cause that they shall have burdens lashed upon their backs; and they shall be driven before like a dumb ass. 12:5
I will send forth hail among them ... and insects shall pester their land also, and devour their grain. 12:6
I will utterly destroy them from off the face of the earth; yet they shall leave a record behind them. ... And many things did Abinadi prophesy against this people. 12:8
They brought Abinabi to King Noah and told him what Abinabi said that the Lord said about him: that he was like a burning garment, a dry stalk that is trampled on by beasts, and (worst of all) like the blossoms of the thistle.
And it came to pass that they were angry with him; and they took him and carried him bound before the king, and said unto the king: Behold, we have brought a man before thee who has prophesied evil concerning thy people, and saith that God will destroy them. 12:9
He also ... saith that thy life shall be as a garment in a furnace of fire. 12:10
He saith that thou shalt be ... a dry stalk of the field, which is run over by the beasts and trodden under foot. 12:11
He saith thou shalt be as the blossoms of a thistle. 12:12
When King Noah heard about Abinadi's prophesying, he threw Abinadi in prison and called his priests to a meeting to decide what to do with him.
 And it came to pass that king Noah caused that Abinadi should be cast into prison; and he commanded that the priests should gather themselves together that he might hold a council with them what he should do with him. 12:17
The priests started interrogating Abinadi, but somehow he managed to start asking the questions.
And now Abinadi said unto them: Are you priests, and pretend to teach this people, and to understand the spirit of prophesying, and yet desire to know of me what these things mean?12:25
Therefore, what teach ye this people? 12:27
They try to defend themselves, but Abinadi is too clever for them.  He pioneers the argument tactic of calling your opponent a whore, insisting that you are right, and then quoting the bible.  People have been using it ever since.  
And they said: We teach the law of Moses. 12:28 
And again he said unto them: If ye teach the law of Moses why do ye not keep it? Why do ye set your hearts upon riches? Why do ye commit whoredoms and spend your strength with harlots, yea, and cause this people to commit sin, that the Lord has cause to send me to prophesy against this people, yea, even a great evil against this people? 12:29
 Ye know that I speak the truth; and you ought to tremble before God. 12:30
Thou shalt have no other God before me.12:35
Now Abinadi said unto them, Have ye done all this? I say unto you, Nay, ye have not. And have ye taught this people that they should do all these things? I say unto you, Nay, ye have not. 12:37
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just in case you want the DVD version.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mosiah 13
Noah is getting sick of Abinadi's preaching.  He orders his men to grab Abinadi, but they can't.  Apparently God will smite them if they do.
And they stood forth and attempted to lay their hands on him; but he withstood them, and said unto them: 13:2
Touch me not, for God shall smite you if ye lay your hands upon me. 13:3
So it looks like they are stuck listening to him, and so are we.  He finishes going through the 10 commandments, and rambles on about all of the usual stuff: stiffnecked people, salvation, the coming of the Lord.
The most notable part of his speech is when he talks about the law of Moses.  He says that we should keep with the law of Moses for now, but there will come a time when we will need to abandon it.  Also, salvation doesn't come simply from following the Law of Moses.  There's more to it than that.

And now ye have said that salvation cometh by the law of Moses. I say unto you that it is expedient that ye should keep the law of Moses as yet; but I say unto you, that the time shall come when it shall no more be expedient to keep the law of Moses. 13:27  
And moreover, I say unto you, that salvation doth not come by the law alone; and were it not for the atonement, which God himself shall make for the sins and iniquities of his people, that they must unavoidably perish, notwithstanding the law of Moses. 13:28
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The next chapter is straight out of Isaiah, but after that we have more of Abinadi's riveting speech. Until then!
Posted by Philip Wells at 1/02/2013 01:21:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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 02 January 20131 Machabees 6-7: Elephants, sleeping soldiers, and a hanging head and hand
The killings in the first part of this story can't be blamed on God. Still, I have to tell you about them. Because of the elephants.


There was this battle, you see, between the Greeks and the Israelites. The Greek army had 100,000 footmen and 20,000 horsemen and 32 elephants.
The number of his army was an hundred thousand footmen, and twenty thousand horsemen, and thirty-two elephants, trained to battle. 6:30
To get the elephants ready for battle they showed them "the blood of grapes, and mulberries." (Nothing gets an elephant riled up more than seeing grape and mulberry blood.)
And they shewed the elephants the blood of grapes, and mulberries to provoke them to fight. 6:34
Each elephant had 1000 men and 500 horsemen, with a tower on top of each elephant and an engine on top of the tower, with 32 valiant fighting men on top of each tower, and an Indian to rule the elephant.
There stood by every elephant a thousand men ... and five hundred horsemen set in order were chosen for every beast. 6:35
Wheresoever the beast was, the were there: and withersoever it went, they went. 6:36
And upon the beast, there were strong wooden towers ... and engines upon them: and upon every one thirty-two valiant men, who fought from above; and an Indian to rule the beast. 6:37
Luckily for the Israelites, Eleazar (one of the Maccabees brothers) was with them. When the battle began, he saw an elephant that was bigger than all the others. Since it was so big, he figured the king ought to be on it. So he ran up to the elephant, killing soldiers left and right, going between the feet of the big elephant and killing it. Whereupon the elephant fell on him and killed him too. But at least he got himself an everlasting name.
Eleazar ... saw one of the beasts ... and it was higher than the other beasts: and it seemed to him that the king was on it. 6:43
And he exposed himself to deliver his people and to get himself an everlasting name. 6:44
And he ran up to it boldly in the midst of the legion, killing on the right hand, and on the left, and they fell by him on this side and that side. 6:45
And he went between the feet of the elephant, and put himself under it: and slew it, and it fell to the ground upon him, and he died there. 6:46
It probably looked a lot like this:


As far as I can see, God's not really involved in any of this. So I left it out of God's killings. But in the  next chapter, God is there.

It all begins with the Israelite priests weeping and praying to God in the temple, asking God to let Nicanor and his army fall by the sword for their blasphemies.
The priests went in, and stood before the face of the altar and the temple: and weeping, they said ... Be avenged of this man, and his army, and let them fall by the sword: remember their blasphemies.  7:36-38
Judas asked God to kill the Nicanor's soldiers the way he killed 185,000 in Sennacherib's army. (Sennacherib supposedly blasphemed God, so God killed 185,000 of his soldiers while they were sleeping. Very resourceful!)
Judas prayed, and said: O Lord, when they that were sent by king Sennacherib blasphemed thee, an angel went out, and slew of them a hundred and eighty-five thousand. 7:40-41
Destroy this army in our sight today. 7:42
So God helped Judas kill Nicanor and his army. First they killed Nicanor and the rest was easy. All of Nicanor's soldiers threw down their weapons and ran away. The Israelites slaughtered them all as they ran.
And the armies joined battle ... and the army of Nicanor was defeated, and he himself was first slain in the battle. 7:43
And when his army saw that Nicanor was slain, they threw away their weapons, and fled. 7:44
And they were all slain with the sword, and there was not left of them so much as one. 7:46
Then they cut off Nicanor's head and hand and hung them up over Jerusalem. "And the people rejoiced exceedingly, and they spent that day with great joy."
And they took the spoils of them for a booty, and they cut off Nicanor's head, and his right hand ... and they brought it, and hung it up over against Jerusalem. 7:47
And the people rejoiced exceedingly, and they spent that day with great joy. 7:48
Nothing can cheer God's people up more than a hanging head and hand.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So how many did God help kill in this exciting episode?
The story in 1 Machabees doesn't provide a number, but 2 Maccabees does.
So fighting with their hands, but praying to the Lord with their hearts, they slew no less than five and thirty thousand, being greatly cheered with the presence of God. 2 Machabees 15:27
So we can add another 35,000 to God's body count.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The 2 Machabees account also provides some gory details that are missing in 1 Machabees. Here we find that not only was Nicanor's head and hand cut off, but his shoulder was as well.
Judas ... commanded that Nicanor's head, and his hand with the shoulder should be cut off, and carried to Jerusalem. 2 Machabees 15:30
And Judas not only showed everyone Nicanor's head and "wicked hand," but he had his tongue cut out and fed, piece by piece, to the birds. Then he hung the hand and head over the temple and castle, respectively, as "an evident and manifest sign of the help of God."
And shewing them the head of Nicanor, and the wicked hand ... he commanded also, that the tongue of the wicked Nicanor, should be cut out and given by pieces to birds, and the hand of the furious man to be hanged up over against the temple. ...
And he hung up Nicanor's head in the top of the castle, that it might be an evident and manifest sign of the help of God. 2 Machabees 15:32-35

Posted by Steve Wells at 1/02/2013 09:30:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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1 comment:
 TWF said...
Well, the Bible does like to tell a good story twice, or more often. :-) Thanks for the review!
Wed Jan 02, 07:10:00 PM 2013 
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 02 January 20131 Machabees 6-7: Elephants, sleeping soldiers, and a hanging head and hand
The killings in the first part of this story can't be blamed on God. Still, I have to tell you about them. Because of the elephants.


There was this battle, you see, between the Greeks and the Israelites. The Greek army had 100,000 footmen and 20,000 horsemen and 32 elephants.
The number of his army was an hundred thousand footmen, and twenty thousand horsemen, and thirty-two elephants, trained to battle. 6:30
To get the elephants ready for battle they showed them "the blood of grapes, and mulberries." (Nothing gets an elephant riled up more than seeing grape and mulberry blood.)
And they shewed the elephants the blood of grapes, and mulberries to provoke them to fight. 6:34
Each elephant had 1000 men and 500 horsemen, with a tower on top of each elephant and an engine on top of the tower, with 32 valiant fighting men on top of each tower, and an Indian to rule the elephant.
There stood by every elephant a thousand men ... and five hundred horsemen set in order were chosen for every beast. 6:35
Wheresoever the beast was, the were there: and withersoever it went, they went. 6:36
And upon the beast, there were strong wooden towers ... and engines upon them: and upon every one thirty-two valiant men, who fought from above; and an Indian to rule the beast. 6:37
Luckily for the Israelites, Eleazar (one of the Maccabees brothers) was with them. When the battle began, he saw an elephant that was bigger than all the others. Since it was so big, he figured the king ought to be on it. So he ran up to the elephant, killing soldiers left and right, going between the feet of the big elephant and killing it. Whereupon the elephant fell on him and killed him too. But at least he got himself an everlasting name.
Eleazar ... saw one of the beasts ... and it was higher than the other beasts: and it seemed to him that the king was on it. 6:43
And he exposed himself to deliver his people and to get himself an everlasting name. 6:44
And he ran up to it boldly in the midst of the legion, killing on the right hand, and on the left, and they fell by him on this side and that side. 6:45
And he went between the feet of the elephant, and put himself under it: and slew it, and it fell to the ground upon him, and he died there. 6:46
It probably looked a lot like this:


As far as I can see, God's not really involved in any of this. So I left it out of God's killings. But in the  next chapter, God is there.

It all begins with the Israelite priests weeping and praying to God in the temple, asking God to let Nicanor and his army fall by the sword for their blasphemies.
The priests went in, and stood before the face of the altar and the temple: and weeping, they said ... Be avenged of this man, and his army, and let them fall by the sword: remember their blasphemies.  7:36-38
Judas asked God to kill the Nicanor's soldiers the way he killed 185,000 in Sennacherib's army. (Sennacherib supposedly blasphemed God, so God killed 185,000 of his soldiers while they were sleeping. Very resourceful!)
Judas prayed, and said: O Lord, when they that were sent by king Sennacherib blasphemed thee, an angel went out, and slew of them a hundred and eighty-five thousand. 7:40-41
Destroy this army in our sight today. 7:42
So God helped Judas kill Nicanor and his army. First they killed Nicanor and the rest was easy. All of Nicanor's soldiers threw down their weapons and ran away. The Israelites slaughtered them all as they ran.
And the armies joined battle ... and the army of Nicanor was defeated, and he himself was first slain in the battle. 7:43
And when his army saw that Nicanor was slain, they threw away their weapons, and fled. 7:44
And they were all slain with the sword, and there was not left of them so much as one. 7:46
Then they cut off Nicanor's head and hand and hung them up over Jerusalem. "And the people rejoiced exceedingly, and they spent that day with great joy."
And they took the spoils of them for a booty, and they cut off Nicanor's head, and his right hand ... and they brought it, and hung it up over against Jerusalem. 7:47
And the people rejoiced exceedingly, and they spent that day with great joy. 7:48
Nothing can cheer God's people up more than a hanging head and hand.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So how many did God help kill in this exciting episode?
The story in 1 Machabees doesn't provide a number, but 2 Maccabees does.
So fighting with their hands, but praying to the Lord with their hearts, they slew no less than five and thirty thousand, being greatly cheered with the presence of God. 2 Machabees 15:27
So we can add another 35,000 to God's body count.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The 2 Machabees account also provides some gory details that are missing in 1 Machabees. Here we find that not only was Nicanor's head and hand cut off, but his shoulder was as well.
Judas ... commanded that Nicanor's head, and his hand with the shoulder should be cut off, and carried to Jerusalem. 2 Machabees 15:30
And Judas not only showed everyone Nicanor's head and "wicked hand," but he had his tongue cut out and fed, piece by piece, to the birds. Then he hung the hand and head over the temple and castle, respectively, as "an evident and manifest sign of the help of God."
And shewing them the head of Nicanor, and the wicked hand ... he commanded also, that the tongue of the wicked Nicanor, should be cut out and given by pieces to birds, and the hand of the furious man to be hanged up over against the temple. ...
And he hung up Nicanor's head in the top of the castle, that it might be an evident and manifest sign of the help of God. 2 Machabees 15:32-35

Posted by Steve Wells at 1/02/2013 09:30:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:  
1 comment:
 TWF said...
Well, the Bible does like to tell a good story twice, or more often. :-) Thanks for the review!
Wed Jan 02, 07:10:00 PM 2013 
Post a Comment
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A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
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Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
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 26 February 2013Jesus H. Christ: Does anyone know his name?
The answer to that question is "No", according to the Bible anyway.
His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. Revelation 19:12
So although we know what Jesus looks like (he has flaming red eyes and wears many crowns on this head -- you'll know him when you see him), we don't know his name. No one does.

Except for those that do, that is.

Like his foster father, Joseph, who named him Jesus. (An angel told him what to name him in a dream.)
The angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS. Matthew 1:21
And Matthew (misinterpreting Isaiah), who said he'd be named Emmanuel.
A virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel. Matthew 1:23
Remember how the book of Revelation said that nobody knows Jesus' name? Well, I guess the author didn't include himself. Here are some of his favorite names for Jesus.
I am Alpha and Omega. Revelation 1:8
Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. Revelation 5:5
I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. Revelation 19:11
He was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. Revelation 9:13
He hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. Revelation 19:16 (What does Jesus have written on his testicles?)
I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. Revelation 22:16 (How are Jesus and Satan alike?)
So Jesus, contrary to Revelation 19:12, has lots of names. And I have another contradiction to add to the SAB. (Here it is.)
(ht Stephen Weeks)
Posted by Steve Wells at 2/26/2013 04:30:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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9 comments:
 TWF said...
If we are including prophetic names, Isaiah 9:6 should also be referenced for "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."
Tue Feb 26, 08:24:00 PM 2013 
 Steve Wells said...
Thanks TWF,
I'm not sure what to do with the prophetic names. They didn't really refer to Jesus, though Christians pretend otherwise. But maybe these names should be included somehow.
I'd be interested in comments on this from both believers and skeptics.
Wed Feb 27, 04:20:00 PM 2013 
 godhatesyeast said...
Just got my SAB.
Absolutely beautiful. A work of art.
Thu Feb 28, 04:30:00 PM 2013 
 James D said...
Hi Steve,
Here's another contradiction for you (probably belongs in the Prophecy category): 2Ch 36.22 describes something as "the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah" then quotes Isaiah 44.28. Yes, I know this is really a text critical issue, but the fundies won't like it either way...
Mon Mar 04, 10:14:00 AM 2013 
 Steve Wells said...
Thanks godhatesyeast!
I'm glad you like the new SAB book. Let me know if you find mistakes or have suggestions for improving future editions.
Tue Mar 05, 11:02:00 AM 2013 
 Steve Wells said...
Thanks James D. I added a note for 2 Chr 36:22.
Tue Mar 05, 04:18:00 PM 2013 
 leisurelyviking said...
The H stands for haploid. Teehee.
Tue Mar 12, 11:03:00 PM 2013 
 Jesus follower said...
The names that were mentioned in previous books, referred to Jesus Christ as he was to be born as a humanbeing. The book of revelation was written for a future revelation of Jesus Christ, and so was the name that no one knew. The most evident thing about the Holy Scripture, is writen in the book of the Acts 1:9, "And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight." And he has a name that no one Knew, but he himself. If you have three names, but people only know two of them; do they know the third one?
Tue Apr 09, 05:38:00 PM 2013 
 az said...
Is Jesus a Muslim Prophet? http://www.scribd.com/doc/193487618/IS-PROPHET-JESUS-AS-A-MUSLIM-PROPHET
Bible says that woman must cover head and wear veil
http://www.scribd.com/doc/194530800/BIBLE-SAYS-THAT-WOMAN-MUST-COVER-HEAD-AND-WEAR-VEIL

Tue Jan 07, 11:45:00 PM 2014 
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 21 February 2013Believing Bullshit


We all do it now and then to a certain degree, anyway -- believe things that are demonstrably untrue.
Now there's a book to help us stop doing that: Believing Bullshit by Stephen Law.
The entire book is a delight to read, filled with wit and wisdom on every page. But the part that I liked the best was saved for last: The Tapescrew Letters, a hilarious response to C.S. Lewis' silly set of sanctimonious letters with a similar name (The Screwtape Letters).
There are eight chapters that deal with the most common ways that we deceive ourselves.

Playing the Mystery Card
"But It Fits!" and The Blunderbuss
Going Nuclear
Moving the Semantic Goalposts
"I Just Know!"
Pseudoprofundity
Piling Up the Anecdotes
Pressing Your Buttons
They're all great, but I especially like the section "You Can't Prove A Negative" in Chapter 1, where Dr. Law explains, "If 'you can't prove a negative' means that you can't prove beyond a reasonable doubt that certain things don't exist, then the claim is just false."
This is a book that everyone should read. It's time for us all to stop believing bullshit.


Posted by Steve Wells at 2/21/2013 09:15:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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 18 February 2013Is it OK to use perfume?

I was watching the 1966 movie "Hawaii" last night, when I came upon this dialog:
Jerusha Hale: I felt so good after my bath that I washed my skin with oil of lilac.
Abner Hale: I smell it. (Pause) Moses forbad the use of perfume.
Jerusha: Proverbs say that ointment and perfume rejoice the heart.
Abner: Isaiah cursed the women who used perfume and abased themselves unto hell.
Jerusha: Esther perfumed herself for a whole year.
Abner: She was under compulsion.
Jerusha: Oh, I think you just like the smell of perfume on my skin.
I suppose I should provide some context for those who haven't seen the movie.
Abner Hale is a Calvinist minister sent to Hawaii in the 1820s to convert the pagans. On the sea voyage, Abner's wife, Jerusha, tries to seduce her husband by wearing perfume. The biblical argument ensues, and apparently Jerusha wins since a son is conceived during the voyage.
But who had the more biblically correct argument?
Here are the relevant verses.
Jerusha's:
Ointment and perfume rejoice the heart. Proverbs 27:9
Esther was brought also unto the king's house ... Now when every maid's turn was come to go in to king Ahasuerus, after that she had been twelve months, according to the manner of the women, (for so were the days of their purifications accomplished, to wit, six months with oil of myrrh, and six months with sweet odours). Esther 2:8-12
Abner's:
As for the perfume which thou shalt make, ye shall not make to yourselves ... it shall be unto thee holy for the LORD. Exodus 30:37
Because the daughters of Zion are haughty ... the LORD will discover their secret parts ... And it shall come to pass, that instead of sweet smell there shall be stink. Isaiah 3:16-24
It's a tough one, isn't it? Two to two, with no verse clearly taking precedence. But maybe Abner and Jerusha left out some verses. If you know of any, let me know.
In any case, I added another contradiction to the SAB - Is it OK to use perfume?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In his comment, Daryl pointed out that Jesus had his feet washed with expensive perfume, and he didn't mind a bit. In fact, it seems like he got a kick out of it. Here's how the NIV puts it:
Then Mary took about a pint of pure nard, an expensive perfume; she poured it on Jesus' feet and wiped his feet with her hair. And the house was filled with the fragrance of the perfume. John 12:3
So that pretty well settles it. Jerusha was right. If perfume was good enough for Jesus' feet, it's good enough for anybody's anything.
I'll add John 12:3 to the contradiction. Thanks Daryl!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And teavee found the correct anti-perfume verse from Isaiah that Abner referred to in his dispute with Jerusha -- Isaiah 57:9.
And thou wentest to the king with ointment, and didst increase thy perfumes ... and didst debase thyself even unto hell.
And an anti-perfume verse from Proverbs (7:17). (See vv.5-27 for the context.)
Thanks teavee!
(I've also changed the contradiction name to "Is it OK to use perfume?", as teavee suggested.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And thanks also to Nate for the references to Luke 7:37-38 and Mark 14:1-9.

Posted by Steve Wells at 2/18/2013 09:53:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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13 comments:
 Daryl Cobranchi said...
John 12:3
"Then Mary took about a pint of pure nard, an expensive perfume; she poured it on Jesus' feet and wiped his feet with her hair. And the house was filled with the fragrance of the perfume."
Mon Feb 18, 10:11:00 AM 2013 
 Steve Wells said...
Yeah, that's a good one, Daryl. And it pretty well settles it, too. If it's good enough for Jesus' feet, it's good enough for anyone's anything.
Mon Feb 18, 10:44:00 AM 2013 
 teavee said...
Maybe these:
Solomon 3:6 "Who is this that cometh out of the wilderness like pillars of smoke, perfumed with myrrh and frankincense, with all powders of the merchant?"
Solomon 4:10 "How fair is thy love, my sister, my spouse! how much better is thy love than wine! and the smell of thine ointments than all spices!"
Solomon 4:13-14 "Thy plants are an orchard of pomegranates, with pleasant fruits; camphire, with spikenard, Spikenard and saffron; calamus and cinnamon, with all trees of frankincense; myrrh and aloes, with all the chief spices:"
Solomon 5:5 " I rose up to open to my beloved; and my hands dropped with myrrh, and my fingers with sweet smelling myrrh, upon the handles of the lock."
Isaiah 57:8 "And thou wentest to the king with ointment, and didst increase thy perfumes, and didst send thy messengers far off, and didst debase thyself even unto hell."
Proverbs 7:17-18 "I have perfumed my bed with myrrh, aloes, and cinnamon. Come, let us take our fill of love until the morning: let us solace ourselves with loves."

Mon Feb 18, 02:43:00 PM 2013 
 TWF said...
Hey Steve, isn't the Exodus quote about a specific type of perfume? As I recall, it was a special mixture which was to remain "for Holy use only." So I think perfume would be permitted, it just couldn't be made of the divine formula.
Mon Feb 18, 02:43:00 PM 2013 
 Steve Wells said...
Yeah, you're probably right, TWF.
The Exodus 30:37 quote is about God's special perfume. He really like it and doesn't want anyone else to use it. Whoever does will be "cut off from his people."
Still, just to be on the safe side, Bible believers should stay away from perfume.
Mon Feb 18, 07:34:00 PM 2013 
 Steve Wells said...
Thanks teavee. You found Abner's Isaiah verse! (57:9)
I've added that one and will try to get to the others later.
Mon Feb 18, 08:00:00 PM 2013 
 teavee said...
Maybe also title the contradiction
"Is it OK to use perfume?" at SAB as you did with the link above since the Proverbs passage mentions perfuming a bed.
Mon Feb 18, 08:27:00 PM 2013 
 Bill Mason said...
Steve,
You seem much like Goliath, a man of great strength, who has great contempt for The Lord God.
Can I ask why you have such hatred towards a God, that you believe does not exist. What motivates your pursuit of these attacks?
Why do you put so much time and effort into this pursuit of religion?
Just curious as I read your posts, you seem to be a pretty angry guy....and I was wondering why you focus so much of your energies in this direction. It seems like, sense you believe there is no God, there would be a better way to spend your time...

Tue Feb 19, 04:59:00 AM 2013 
 Nate said...
If you meet Jesus, cry on his feet. Rub the tears on his feet. Then wipe the tears off his feet with your hair. Then kiss his feet. And then, finally, rub perfume on his feet.
Luke 7:37-38
King James Version (KJV)
37 And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment,
38 And stood at his feet behind him weeping, and began to wash his feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment.
------------
Dump a bottle of perfume worth 300 pence on Jesus' head.
Mark 14
King James Version (KJV)
14 After two days was the feast of the passover, and of unleavened bread: and the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might take him by craft, and put him to death.
2 But they said, Not on the feast day, lest there be an uproar of the people.
3 And being in Bethany in the house of Simon the leper, as he sat at meat, there came a woman having an alabaster box of ointment of spikenard very precious; and she brake the box, and poured it on his head.
4 And there were some that had indignation within themselves, and said, Why was this waste of the ointment made?
5 For it might have been sold for more than three hundred pence, and have been given to the poor. And they murmured against her.
6 And Jesus said, Let her alone; why trouble ye her? she hath wrought a good work on me.
7 For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always.
8 She hath done what she could: she is come aforehand to anoint my body to the burying.
9 Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached throughout the whole world, this also that she hath done shall be spoken of for a memorial of her.
Tue Feb 19, 11:00:00 AM 2013 
 Stephen said...
Bill Mason said...
"Can I ask why you have such hatred towards a God, that you believe does not exist. What motivates your pursuit of these attacks?
"Why do you put so much time and effort into this pursuit of religion?"
I won't presume to answer for Steve Wells, but as another Steve I feel I am entitled to a shot.
First, it's not possible for a sane person to hate something that doesn't exist.
Frankly, I wouldn't waste time on religion if its adherents kept their delusions to themselves. But they insist on trying to convert people, telling them the "good news". They want to teach their world view in the schools. They want to tell others who they can and can't live with, have sex with, what drugs they can and can't take. They involve themselves in politics, in spite of the "wall of separation" built into our Constitution. And there is no shortage of stories of abuse of children by priests, religious institutions and religious parents. Do I need to go on?
What's more, it's a lot of fun to point out stupidity when it is expressed in public. But there's no hate there.
Steve Weeks
Tue Feb 19, 06:21:00 PM 2013 
 Sabio Lantz said...
This is fantastic. I just put up a post called, "Stop saying 'The Bible Says'". This is a perfect specific example to illustrate my point in the post. I will mention your post in my comments.
Thank you so much!
Thu Feb 21, 03:05:00 AM 2013 
 Nathan said...
Hey Steve, I was reading the New Living Translation version of Mark 14 about the girl dumping a bottle of perfume on Jesus' head. I think verse 9 should be highlighted in the SAB as an absurdity. Jesus prophesied (incorrectly) that every time the bible is preached people would retell and discuss the story of him getting a bottle of perfume dumped onto his head!
Mark 14:3-9
New Living Translation (NLT)
3 Meanwhile, Jesus was in Bethany at the home of Simon, a man who had previously had leprosy. While he was eating, a woman came in with a beautiful alabaster jar of expensive perfume made from essence of nard. She broke open the jar and poured the perfume over his head.
4 Some of those at the table were indignant. “Why waste such expensive perfume?” they asked. 5 “It could have been sold for a year’s wages and the money given to the poor!” So they scolded her harshly. 6 But Jesus replied, “Leave her alone. Why criticize her for doing such a good thing to me? 7 You will always have the poor among you, and you can help them whenever you want to. But you will not always have me. 8 She has done what she could and has anointed my body for burial ahead of time. 9 I tell you the truth, wherever the Good News is preached throughout the world, this woman’s deed will be remembered and discussed.”


Thu Feb 21, 04:14:00 PM 2013 
 Steve Wells said...
Thanks Nathan, that's a great suggestion. I've added Mark 3:9 to the absurdities.
Thu Feb 21, 09:13:00 PM 2013 
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 16 February 2013The books have arrived!
We are busy packing them up and shipping them out to everyone who pre-ordered.
You'll get an email when your signed copy goes out.


Thanks, everybody!
Steve and Phil
Posted by Steve Wells at 2/16/2013 12:57:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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11 comments:
 graysonjack said...
I believe I ordered a book, but never got any sort of email receipt or verification. Was one sent?
Thu Feb 21, 12:24:00 PM 2013 
 Steve Wells said...
Hi Jack,
Let me check on your order. I'll need your tranaction ID or email to look you up. Send me an email at swwells at gmail.com and I'll get you taken care of.
Thanks,
Steve
Thu Feb 21, 01:27:00 PM 2013 
 Stephen said...
I received my copy yesterday! It is a massive thing, with a good, solid feel... a proper bible!
It's worth buying, if only for the Introduction and "About the Categories" section. The selected quotes from the old and new testaments inside the front and back covers are very helpful to get in the mood.
This volume will occupy a place of honor on my bookshelf, which contains a Revised Standard Version from church school, a Junior Bible from my grandfather (a Presbyterian minister), hymnals, and books by Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Bart Ehrman, Dan Dennett, Carl Sagan and others.
My only complaint is that there is only one bookmark ribbon attached to the binding. There should be at least fourteen (color coded!)- one for the reader's favorite passage in each category. Well, the book would wind up like a maypole, so maybe that's not such a good idea. ^_^
Thanks, Steve Wells, for a most useful contribution to the skeptical lexicon! Now... how can we get these into all the hotel rooms?
Steve Weeks
Fri Feb 22, 06:27:00 AM 2013 
 AmethystBolt said...
I pre-ordered a copy of the book and never received any email. Is there something wrong?
Fri Feb 22, 08:57:00 AM 2013 
 Steve Wells said...
Hi AmethystBolt,
Send me an email and I'll check on the status of your order. Swwells at gmail.com
Thanks,
Steve
Fri Feb 22, 10:40:00 AM 2013 
 Jim Hudlow said...
Steve...got my book 2 days ago and I LOVE it...a very fine job. I am only 30 pages in but I am taking my time and marking it up for my future use and edification...it will be a wonderful resource and make reading the whole bible much more tolerable. Thanks for your hard work!! Jim Hudlow
Fri Feb 22, 09:50:00 PM 2013 
 Jim Hudlow said...
Steve Weeks...what a great idea!! I'll shoot an email off to Paris Hilton and see if we can sell a few million more of these for Mr. Wells and edify an ignorant public in the process~~
Fri Feb 22, 09:55:00 PM 2013 
 Stephen said...
Jim Hudlow said...
"...what a great idea!! I'll shoot an email off to Paris Hilton and see if we can sell a few million more of these for Mr. Wells..."
Last Friday night I found a copy in a room on the 24th floor of the Conrad Hilton in Chicago!
Oh, yes... it was *my* copy. :-)
Come to think of it, I didn't find any holy scriptures in the room This was probably a good thing, as there was a "Nation of Islam" convention at the same hotel!! I doubt they would have appreciated finding anything but the Coo-coo-ran in their rooms.
Steve
Sun Feb 24, 12:00:00 PM 2013 
 Jim Hudlow said...
Stephen...you left a great review on Amazon too....I can't wait until the first fundie puts the usual one star hockempucky on there without even having looked at the book....then we can dispense a little informed correction~~
Sun Feb 24, 06:48:00 PM 2013 
 Stephen said...
Jim, if my review was any good it must have been inspired by the holy spirit, 'cause I'm normally not very eloquent!
Steve
Mon Feb 25, 03:32:00 AM 2013 
 Carlos Guzman said...
I just got my copy today. Sent all the way to Japan! Thanks a lot!
Wed Mar 06, 08:22:00 AM 2013 
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What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
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 11 February 2013We have a new pope!
(ht Stephen Weeks)
Posted by Steve Wells at 2/11/2013 09:18:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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1 comment:
 havocwing said...
I always thought "god" is Darth Sidious and Jesus Christ is Darth Vader.
The papacy (or pope) would be more like Grand Moff Tarkin.
Wed Feb 13, 03:20:00 PM 2013 
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 08 February 2013Mosiah 19: Lamanite Attack!
In the last chapter, King Noah sent his army after Alma and his people. They managed to escape the pursuing army (with the help of God, no doubt). When the king's army returned, there was a division among the people.  One strong man, Gideon, sought to slay the king.
And now there was a man among them whose name was Gideon, and he being a strong man and an enemy to the king, therefore he drew his sword, and swore in his wrath that he would slay the king. 19:4
Gideon and the king fought, and just as Gideon was about to slay him, King Noah ran away to his tower.  Once Gideon caught up with him, Noah saw that the Lamanites were preparing to attack the city. He saw it as the perfect opportunity to bargain for his life. He told Gideon that he shouldn't kill him now, or else his people will be killed by the Lamanites. His ploy works, and Gideon spares his life.
And Gideon pursued after him and was about to get upon the tower to slay the king, and the king cast his eyes round about towards the land of Shemlon, and behold, the army of the Lamanites were within the borders of the land. 19:6
And now the king cried out in the anguish of his soul, saying: Gideon, spare me, for the Lamanites are upon us, and they will destroy us; yea, they will destroy my people. 19:7
And now the king was not so much concerned about his people as he was about his own life; nevertheless, Gideon did spare his life. 19:8
Noah commanded his people to flee into the wilderness. They do, but the Lamanites quickly catch up and start killing people.
And the king commanded the people that they should flee before the Lamanites, and he himself did go before them, and they did flee into the wilderness, with their women and their children. 19:9 
And it came to pass that the Lamanites did pursue them, and did overtake them, and began to slay them. 19:10
Then Noah tells his people to abandon their wives and children, and to run for their lives. Some of them do, and the others choose to stay and try and defend their families by other means: whoring out their daughters.
Now it came to pass that the king commanded them that all the men should leave their wives and their children, and flee before the Lamanites. 19:11
Now there were many that would not leave them, but had rather stay and perish with them. And the rest left their wives and their children and fled. 19:12
And it came to pass that those who tarried with their wives and their children caused that their fair daughters should stand forth and plead with the Lamanites that they would not slay them. 19:13 
And it came to pass that the Lamanites had compassion on them, for they were charmed with the beauty of their women. 19:14
So the Lamanites took them captive, and let them live their lives relatively unchanged, except for a 50% tax.  (Geez, I thought King Noah's tax was high!)
Therefore the Lamanites did spare their lives, and took them captives and carried them back to the land of Nephi, and granted unto them that they might possess the land, under the conditions that they would deliver up king Noah into the hands of the Lamanites, and deliver up their property, even one half of all they possessed, one half of their gold, and their silver, and all their precious things, and thus they should pay tribute to the king of the Lamanites from year to year. 19:15
Limhi, the new "King", agreed to this Draconian tax. He didn't have much choice, though. The Lamanite king drove a hard bargain.
And it came to pass that the king of the Lamanites made an oath unto them, that his people should not slay them.  19:25
And also Limhi, being the son of the king, having the kingdom conferred upon him by the people, made oath unto the king of the Lamanites that his people should pay tribute unto him, even one half of all they possessed. 19:26
The Lamanite king was clever, though. He knew that Limhi's people might try running away again, so he posted guards around the city. In spite of the crippling tax that was upon them, there was continual peace in the land for two years.
And the king of the Lamanites set guards round about the land, that he might keep the people of Limhi in the land, that they might not depart into the wilderness; and he did support his guards out of the tribute which he did receive from the Nephites. 19:28 
And now king Limhi did have continual peace in his kingdom for the space of two years, that the Lamanites did not molest them nor seek to destroy them. 19:29
Posted by Philip Wells at 2/08/2013 01:14:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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3 comments:
 Ben said...
And Obama's tax rate is even higher than this!
Fri Feb 08, 03:37:00 PM 2013 
 skanksta said...
what is the standard rate of income tax in the US ?!
Sun Feb 10, 06:25:00 PM 2013 
 twillight said...
Actually I'd still prefer that 50% taxation.
I last payday-time counted out the current tax rate, and resulted in 80+%.
Thu Feb 28, 03:26:00 AM 2013 
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 29 March 2013Forget Easter: Celebrate Jesus-in-Hell Day instead!
File:Harrowing of Hell.jpg
The Harrowing of Hell
Now that Jesus is dead (they killed him in the Philippines earlier today), we can celebrate what happened after he died.

Happy Jesus-in-Hell Day!
Most Christians (well, Protestants, anyway) don't know this, but Jesus went directly to hell after he died.
Really, he did. It says so in the Bible.
He [David] seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. Acts 2:31
The above quote is from the speech that Peter gave on the day of Pentecost -- you know, the day that believers spoke in languages they didn't understand and acted like they were drunk.
So it must be true. (If you can't trust a drunken Pentecostal preacher who was also the first pope, whom can you trust?)


There are a couple of other references to Jesus's day in hell by someone who claimed to be Peter, but wasn't. Here's what the forger of 1 Peter said about it.
Christ ... went and preached unto the spirits in prison. 1 Peter 3:19
For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead. 1 Peter 4:6
So Jesus preached the gospel to the dead people "in prison" -- that is, to the people in hell.

And then there's this from Ephesians (another forgery, this time attributed to Paul).
Christ ... descended first into the lower parts of the earth.  He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things. Ephesians 4:7-9
So Jesus descended "into the lower parts of the earth" -- which, as we all know, is where hell is.

Of course, Catholics know all this. They are reminded every time they attend mass or say the rosary, because it's right there in The Apostles' Creed.
I believe in God, the Father almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried; he descended into hell....
So get out and celebrate Jesus's descent into hell.

Here are some pictures that Jesus took during his visit to inspire you.

The first is a black and white photo of a very tall Jesus meeting Adam and Eve as they come out of their demon-mouth house.

Here's one, on Saturday night, after Jesus put on his transparent robe.

And here's Jesus in a hurry to meet the ladies of hell.

Here's Jesus delivering the sermon from hell.

And here he is Sunday morning before heading back to the tomb.


So to hell with Easter. Celebrate Jesus-in-Hell Day instead.
Posted by Steve Wells at 3/29/2013 04:06:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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8 comments:
 Andy Breeden said...
Good article. Thanks!
Fri Mar 29, 06:33:00 PM 2013 
 The Squatting Monkey said...
jesus went to hell? Oh jesus, you so crazy
Sat Mar 30, 08:42:00 AM 2013 
 More or Less Dave said...
Hi Steve. I love the SAB and admire all the graft you have put into it.
I think I might have come across another note for the SAB. You decide.
In Isaiah 40:26, the writer says "not one [star] is missing", implying that he thinks stars live forever, which is of course false.

Sat Mar 30, 07:35:00 PM 2013 
 Mickey said...
One thing that's always puzzled me is according to the bible Jesus once told his disciples that just as Jonah was in the belly of a whale for three days and nights, he would be in the heart of the earth three days and nights (Mat 12:40). I'm sure most Christians would understand this as him talking of his death and how long he would be dead, according to what I've been taught when I use to go to church.
However the bible teaches that Jesus was crucified on Friday (Good Friday), was taken down off the cross before the next day which would have been the Sabbath (Saturday). He then supposedly arose very early on Sunday. How that constitutes three days and three nights I don't know. Anyone else care to enlighten me?
Sat Mar 30, 09:59:00 PM 2013 
 Stephen said...
@Mickey...
Looks like somwone tried, then realized they couldn't. ;-)
Steve Weeks
Sun Mar 31, 05:03:00 PM 2013 
 Stephen said...
"somEone"...
Curse the lack of editing. Am I missing something?
Steve Weeks
Sun Mar 31, 05:05:00 PM 2013 
 Steve Wells said...
Thanks for the suggestion, More or Less Dave. I've highlighted Isaiah 40:26 and added it to the "Science" category.
Mon Apr 01, 11:50:00 AM 2013 
 Steve Wells said...
Well, Mickey, it was sort of a long 3-day weekend in hell. It started just after Jesus died on Friday, when he descended into hell. And it ended when he left the tomb on Sunday. So, yeah, it wasn't quite as long as Jonah's whale-belly trip, but it was close enough for the Bible. The New Testament writers tried to make everything in the Old Testament fit the story they were making up about Jesus. And to hell with the details.
Mon Apr 01, 12:46:00 PM 2013 
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 24 March 2013Who is the most blessed woman (according to the Bible)?
Since tomorrow (March 25) is The Feast of the Annunciation of the Most Blessed Virgin Mary, I thought I'd ask this question: Who is the most blessed woman according to the Bible?
To Catholics, of course, there is only one answer: Mary

Henry Ossawa Tanner - The Annunciation
And there's good biblical justification for their belief, from the annunciation story in the Gospel of Luke.
You remember this story, right? The one where the angel Gabriel stopped by Nazareth to visit the Most Blessed Virgin Mary and say the rosary with her?
OK, not really. He stopped by to tell her that the Holy Ghost would soon be getting her pregnant the way he did her cousin Elizabeth. But during his visit he did manage to come up with the first half of the "Hail Mary."
The angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. Luke 1:26-28
So Mary, then, according to the angel Gabriel and the Gospel of Luke, is "blessed among women."
But is she the most blessed of all women? Are there any other women in the Bible that can compete with her blessedness?
How about Jael, for example?

Gregorio Lazzarini: Jael and Sisera
In Judges 4, Jael offers food and shelter to a traveler (Sisera), saying "turn in my Lord ... fear not." Then after giving him a glass of milk and tucking him in, she drives a tent stake through his head.


For murdering her guest while he slept, Jael is called "blessed above women." (Hail Jael, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women....?)
Blessed above women shall Jael ... be, blessed shall she be above women ...
He asked water, and she gave him milk; she brought forth butter in a lordly dish.
She put her hand to the nail, and her right hand to the workmen's hammer; and with the hammer she smote Sisera, she smote off his head, when she had pierced and stricken through his temples ... there he fell down dead. Judges 5:
So surely Jael is in the running for the most blessed of all women.
Or how about Judith?

Caravaggio: Judith Beheading Holofernes
Judith's story is not found in Protestant Bibles. But it is in Catholic ones, which include the Deuterocanonical Book of Judith.
Here's the relevant story from chapter 13, where Judith, with God's approval and assistance, decapitated the drunken Holfernes while he slept.
They were all overcharged with wine....
Holofernes lay on his bed, fast asleep, being exceedingly drunk...
Judith stood before the bed praying...
Saying: Strengthen me, O Lord ... that I may bring to pass ... that it might be done by thee...
When she had said this, she ... loosed his sword...
And ... she took him by the hair of his head, and said: Strengthen me, O Lord...
And she struck twice upon his neck, and cut off his head...
And ... she ... delivered the head of Holofernes to her maid, and bade her put it into her wallet. Judith 13:2-11
For cutting off the head of a drunken man as he slept, Judith is blessed by God "above all woman."
Blessed art thou, O daughter, by the Lord the most high God, above all women upon the earth.
The Lord ... directed thee to the cutting off the head ... Thy praise shall not depart out of the mouth of men ... for ever. Judith 13:23-25
So, I don't know for sure, of course, but I think Judith wins the prize. She is "blessed ... above all women upon the earth."  Whereas Jael is "blessed above women" so I think she deserves the silver. And poor old Mary is only "blessed among women", so she gets the bronze.
Maybe Pope Francis should institute a new feast: The Feast of Judith, Blessed Above All Women and demote Mary to just one of the several blessed women.



Posted by Steve Wells at 3/24/2013 12:07:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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2 comments:
 Saurabh Ghosh said...
Well-argued, Steve! I'm stealing this one :D
Sun Mar 24, 10:41:00 PM 2013 
 DEEPA STEPP said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Mon Jan 13, 08:48:00 AM 2014 
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 13 March 20132 Machabees 4:29-42: A Jewish mob kills Lysimachus, the sacrilegious fellow
In the last apocryphal killing, God killed Andronicus (the sacrilegious wretch) for supporting the wrong candidate (Menelaus) for Jewish high priest.
The next high priest was Menelaus's brother, Lysimachus.
Menelaus was removed from the priesthood, Lysimachus his brother succeeding. 2 Machabees 4:29
There were rumors among the Jews that Lysimachus followed after his brother's sacrilegious ways.
Now when many sacrileges had been committed by Lysimachus in the temple by the counsel of Menelaus, and the rumour of it was spread abroad, the multitude gathered themselves together against Lysimachus, a great quantity of gold being already carried away. 4:39
So the mob killed Lysimachus by throwing stones, clubbing him to death, and (worst of all) throwing ashes upon him.
Wherefore the multitude making an insurrection, and their minds being filled with anger ... caught up stones, some strong clubs: and some threw ashes upon Lysimachus ... the sacrilegious fellow ... they slew. 4:40-42
And although the text doesn't say so explicitly, it's pretty clear that God inspired and approved of this killing (even if he didn't assist in it by throwing ashes himself).
Posted by Steve Wells at 3/13/2013 12:20:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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 10 March 2013Continuing the Apocryphal killings: God killed Andronichus (that sacrilegious wretch)
Now that the SAB book is out and the pre-orders have been shipped, it's time to get back to the Apocryphal killings.
As you might recall, the last killing was Antiochus, whom, according to 1 and 2 Machabees, God killed in three different ways (with an incurable bowel disease, by smashing him with stones and dismembering him, and by scaring him to death). .
The next story is about a man named Andronicus.
Andronicus was an official of King Antiochus who got involved in a dispute between two rivals for the Jewish high priesthood. One claimant was Onias, God's favorite; the other was Menelaus, a cruel tyrant and savage beast, who stole gold out of the temple and gave it to Andronicus.
Menelaus ... having the mind of a cruel tyrant, and the rage of a savage beast ... having stolen certain vessels of gold out of the temple, gave them to Andronicus. 2 Machabees 4:23-32
Menelaus asked Andronicus to kill Onias.
Menelaus coming to Andronicus, desired him to kill Onias. 4:34a
Which he did.
And he [Andronicus] went to Onias ... and immediately slew him. 4:34b
When King Antiochus (who according to 1 Machabees 1:16 was already dead) heard about Onias's death, he was "moved to pity" and "shed tears, remembering the sobriety and modesty of the deceased."
Antiochus therefore was grieved in his mind for Onias, and being moved to pity, shed tears, remembering the sobriety and modesty of the deceased. 4.37
So God inspired Antiochus to kill Andronicus (the sacrilegious wretch) as his deserved punishment.
And being inflamed to anger, he [Antiochus] commanded Andronicus to be stripped of his purple, and to be led about through all the city: and that in the same place wherein he had committed the impiety against Onias, the sacrilegious wretch should be put to death, the Lord repaying him his deserved punishment. 4:38
Posted by Steve Wells at 3/10/2013 02:46:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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 08 March 2013Giving Ecclesiastes too much credit
In previous posts I've said that Ecclesiastes is the best book (and pretty much the only good book) in the Bible. And I still think that's true.
But I may have given it too much credit. There's a lot of crazy stuff that I passed over when highlighting Ecclesiastes. (Once you decide that a biblical book is "good" it's easy to read it like a believer and ignore the bad stuff.)
Here, for example, are some verses that were previously unmarked in the SAB that Steve Weeks recently pointed out to me.  (I've since added them to absurdity.)

The fool foldeth his hands together, and eateth his own flesh. 4:5
Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment. 9:8
A wise man's heart is at his right hand; but a fool's heart at his left. 10:2
Give a portion to seven, and also to eight; for thou knowest not what evil shall be upon the earth. 11:2
So take another look at the Bible's best book and see what you find. Are there other verses that you think should be highlighted? If so, let me know in the comments.
Posted by Steve Wells at 3/08/2013 11:03:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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15 comments:
 Stephen said...
I have to confess that it was the first time I actually read the entire book, being as I am no biblical scholar. I'm sure Ecclesiastes is a good book, and better than its occasional absurdities make it seem. After all, it inspired at least one pretty good song! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4ga_M5Zdn4)
I found something good in Proverbs:
3:13 Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.
3:14 For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold.
3:15 She is more precious than rubies: and all the things thou canst desire are not to be compared unto her.
3:16 Length of days is in her right hand; and in her left hand riches and honour.
3:17 Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace.
3:18 She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her.
If I interpret this correctly, it is about the benefits of wisdom and understanding. All good. Too bad there is a previous contradiction in 3:5 (already annotated for "Science/History" and "Absurdity").
Steve, thanks for getting me started. I'm liking this learning experience. Of course, there *is* that apologists' web site that always ends up with "There is no contradiction." ;-)
Steve Weeks
Fri Mar 08, 12:07:00 PM 2013 
 Steve Wells said...
Thanks Steve.
I've added the nice verses about wisdom (Proverbs 3:13-18)
Fri Mar 08, 01:52:00 PM 2013 
 Nathan said...
I'm using the NLT because to me it's the closest translation to modern English. 2:7 is an injustice? And 2:8 in the KJV is "I gat me men singers and women singers, and the delights of the sons of men, as musical instruments, and that of all sorts." but in the NLT 2:8 translates that to having concubines? I see in the New International Version 2:8 translates "and the delights of the sons of men" to "a harem".
New Living Translation
Ecclesiastes 2:7 I bought slaves, both men and women
2:8
I hired wonderful singers, both men and women, and had many beautiful concubines.
Fri Mar 08, 02:38:00 PM 2013 
 Nathan said...
End of 5:6 an injustice/cruelty?
5:6 (NLT) Don’t let your mouth make you sin. And don’t defend yourself by telling the Temple messenger that the promise you made was a mistake. That would make God angry, and he might wipe out everything you have achieved.
5:6 (KJV) Suffer not thy mouth to cause thy flesh to sin; neither say thou before the angel, that it was an error: wherefore should God be angry at thy voice, and destroy the work of thine hands?
Fri Mar 08, 02:47:00 PM 2013 
 Nathan said...
If a labouring man eats little he still has a sweet time sleeping? And rich people seldom get a good night's sleep?
5:12 (NLT) People who work hard sleep well, whether they eat little or much. But the rich seldom get a good night’s sleep.
5:12 (KJV) The sleep of a labouring man is sweet, whether he eat little or much: but the abundance of the rich will not suffer him to sleep.
Fri Mar 08, 02:56:00 PM 2013 
 Nathan said...
There are a lot of absurdities in other translations, particularly the NLT. But sometimes when you look at the KJV the translation is completely different. Here are some absurdities from the NLT that are either way different or not as funny in the KJV. (NOTE: 4:2 is actually pretty absurd in the KJV! 4:11 is also absurd. The rest are only funny in the NLT)
3:15 (NLT) What is happening now has happened before, and what will happen in the future has happened before, because God makes the same things happen over and over again.
3:19 (NLT) For people and animals share the same fate—both breathe and both must die. So people have no real advantage over the animals.
4:1-2 (NLT) Again, I observed all the oppression that takes place under the sun. I saw the tears of the oppressed, with no one to comfort them. The oppressors have great power, and their victims are helpless. 2 So I concluded that the dead are better off than the living.
4:11 (NLT) Likewise, two people lying close together can keep each other warm. But how can one be warm alone?
10:3 (NLT) You can identify fools just by the way they walk down the street!
Fri Mar 08, 03:18:00 PM 2013 
 Steve Wells said...
Thanks Nathan for the suggestions.
I added Ecclesiastes 3:15 to the absurdities. (God makes everything happen over and over.)
But I'm not sure about the other verses. It's probably because Ecclesiastes sounds profound even when it says silly things.
Fri Mar 08, 05:00:00 PM 2013 
 Stephen said...
Here is a puzzlement. Ecclesiastes 3:3 says there is a time to kill and a time to heal. This seems almost to straddle the two columns on the page in the SAB "Is it OK to kill?" (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/kill.html )
Of course, "Looking Unto Jesus/Answering the Atheist" says there is no contradiction because not all killing is "murder", and it's OK for god to kill. :lol:
(http://www.lookinguntojesus.net/ata20020512.htm)
Steve Weeks
Sat Mar 09, 07:28:00 AM 2013 
 Steve Wells said...
Yeah, I skipped over that one because I like the song so much.
But I've added it to the contradictions. (To kill or not to kill)
Sat Mar 09, 09:27:00 AM 2013 
 Stephen said...
The song stands on its own merits... I'll bet more people have been exposed to Ecclesiastes by Pete Seeger and the Byrds than by church types. I remember when I was in high school being impressed that a rock band would sing a song whose lyrics came from the bible. That was, mercifully, before I had heard of "christian rock".
But... doesn't the same verse also belong in the "Don't Kill" column? "A time to heal" would seem to contradict "a time to kill". IMO, this doesn't invalidate Ecclesiastes... it's a sort of "situational ethics" approach which is a refreshing change from the normal "business as usual: death" modus operandi of the god of the old testament.
Steve Weeks
Sat Mar 09, 03:50:00 PM 2013 
 573f6c22-8ddc-11e2-a512-000bcdcb8a73 said...
I've read some interesting things at this site, but this is the first stuff I've seen which appears to be plain silly. Below I'm adding text from my old New English Bible for comparison purposes.
The fool foldeth his hands together, and eateth his own flesh. 4:5 vs. NEB "The fool folds his arms and wastes away."
Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment. 9:8 vs NEB "Always be dressed in white and never fail to annoint your head"
A wise man's heart is at his right hand; but a fool's heart at his left. 10:2 vs NEB "The mind of the wise man faces right, but the mind of the fool faces left"
Give a portion to seven, and also to eight; for thou knowest not what evil shall be upon the earth. 11:2 vs NEB "Divide your merchandise among seven ventures, eight maybe, since you do not know what disasters may occur on earth"
IMO the "crazy" disappears entirely. The context is also important, for in that last verse what the author is saying is the same as "don't put all your eggs in one basket". Sea transport in those days wasn't quite the sure thing it is today.
Fri Mar 15, 06:53:00 PM 2013 
 Stephen said...
573f6c22-8ddc-11e2-a512-000bcdcb8a73 said...

NEB "The fool folds his arms and wastes away."
"Being foolish gives you cancer"
NEB "Always be dressed in white and never fail to annoint your head"
"Brylcreem... a litle dab'll do ya"
NEB "The mind of the wise man faces right, but the mind of the fool faces left"
"Democrats are fools"

IMO the "crazy" disappears entirely.
Well... not entirely.
Steve Weeks
Fri Mar 15, 08:46:00 PM 2013 
 Stephen said...
Here are the instructions for annointing your hair:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6F4GtyRfto
Steve Weeks
Fri Mar 15, 09:02:00 PM 2013 
 573f6c22-8ddc-11e2-a512-000bcdcb8a73 said...
Context really does matter.
4 Again, I considered all the acts of oppression here under the sun; I saw the tears of the oppressed, and I saw that there was no one to comfort them. Strength was on the side of their oppressors, and there was no one to avenge them. I counted the dead happy because they were dead, happier than the living who are still in life. More fortunate than either I reckoned the man yet unborn, who had not witnessed the wicked deeds done here under the sun. I considered all toil and all achievement and saw that it comes from rivalry between man and man. This too is emptiness and chasing the wind. The fool folds his arms and wastes away. Better one hand full and peace of mind, than both fists full and toil that is chasing the wind.
~~~~
Regarding the annointing, that appears to have been a cultural thing which isn't much practiced anymore. But then again, we bath a lot in these modern times, and a few hundred years ago the practice was almost unheard of.
Cultural.
Fri Mar 15, 09:17:00 PM 2013 
 Steve Wells said...
I've added 2:7; 5:6, 12; 4:2, 11; 10:3 to the absurdity, injustice, etc.
Thanks Nathan! And let me know if you find others.
Fri Mar 22, 11:03:00 AM 2013 
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 06 March 2013Douglas Wilson's grammatical argument against gay marriage

I've seen quite a few of Doug Wilson's previous debates (See, for example, Collision: Are Doug Wilson's beliefs good for the world? ) and he always seems to come out on top. But not this time.
The debate took place on February 27 at the University of Idaho in Doug Wilson's (an my) hometown of Moscow. (Unfortunately I was unable to attend the debate since I was out of town at the time.)
The topic was "Is civil marriage for gay couples good for society?" and was moderated by Peter Hitchens, the late great Christopher Hitchens's obnoxious little brother.
Andrew Sullivan argued forcefully and persuasively in favor of the proposition, using his personal experience as a gay married man, while citing data showing the positive effects of gay marriage on society.
Doug Wilson began his argument with these words:
I would like to begin by thanking the Lord for how everything came together. (22:52)
And everything fell apart for him from there.
In his initial fifteen minute presentation, he presented two arguments:
1) If gays are allowed to marry then so will polygamists, bisexuals, first cousins, etc.
2) Gay marriage is grammatically incorrect.
The slippery polygamous slope argument is obvious (and silly) enough, but the grammatical argument requires a bit of explaining. Here's how Douglas Wilson put it in the debate: (36:31)
At a certain point, allowing for changes in the direct object actually changes the meaning of the verb. Andrew appears to agree with this, arguing for "monogamy as central to all marriage." Adding a third person would take away the central element, meaning that such marriages weren't really marriages, making the direct object  "two women", for example, instead of "one woman", means that the verb "to marry" has been altered. 
And, as everyone knows, when the direct object alters the verb, all hell breaks loose.
During the question and answer session, the second question to Doug Wilson was this: (1:24:29)
I listened with great interest to your fifteen minute opening statement, and I heard you drawing lines of acceptable and unacceptable behavior, but I did not hear a single cogent argument for why Mr. Sullivan and his husband's behavior and marriage does not fit within the line that you would draw. And you have not answered the question and you haven't given any reason why civil marriage between gays is not good for society. Would you care to comment please?
Here was Mr. Wilson's answer:
Yes. I timed my opening comment when the light was good and when the light was not good up here, so I've got a little bit left, and I was addressing that in my conclusion, so I'm going to incorporate that into my five-minute close. Basically. So you're exactly right, that's the missing piece and I urge you to wait for it with bated breath.
To which Mr. Sullivan responded:
When the missing piece is the actual proposition to be debated? (laughter and applause)
"Is civil marriage for gay couples good for society?"
Is it unfair to ask you to answer that now? Why didn't you answer it in the beginning?
Wilson:
In the tradition that I was trained in the conclusion usually comes at the end of the argument.
Sullivan:
This is the premise. This is the core of the argument; it's not a conclusion. If it's the conclusion, then you give me no way to engage it. Right? So you are actually shutting off the debate by keeping the key argument for the end..
Wilson:
No, it was the gentleman with the card saying "30 seconds left" that actually shut off the...
Sullivan:
Well now you have all the time in the world to answer the man's question.
Wilson:
I'm happy to answer your question. The reason civil marriage is not good for society is that the changing of the direct object from a woman to a man when a man is considering marriage is that to change the direct object does more than just change the direct object, it changes the meaning of the verb. So the verb "to marry" is changed for all of us.We're not taking a house and adding an extra room, what we're doing is we're going into a new state of affairs to allow marriage between a man and a man and a woman and a woman is to open the doors to a dilution of what it means to marry at all. And I believe, and this is an area where Andrew and I agree, that an established social institution like marriage ought not to be messed with.
So it's all about direct objects, changing verbs, and adding an extra room to a house.
In his closing statement, Mr. Wilson finally presented a biblical argument against gay marriage. The killer argument that he was saving for last is this: Jesus married the church and the church, it turns out, is female.
Now that's a fine argument except that it fails Wilson's two-pronged test. Since there are many Christian churches, Jesus has many wives. Therefore polygamy is OK. And I don't even want to think about the grammatical implications of Jesus's multiple brides. It would change direct objects, as well as verbs, and require many room additions in the polygamous kingdom of heaven.
Doug Wilson lost the debate because he couldn't present his real views on gay marriage, so he had to talk about slippery slopes, direct objects, and Jesus's marital relations.
You see, Doug Wilson believes in the Bible, and the Bible is clear on gay marriage. Here's what it says:
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. Leviticus 20:13
Doug Wilson believes that this verse is a commandment from God that should be applied today. If he had his way there would be no gay marriage because there would be no gay people. They would all be executed as God commands.


Here is what his church's website (Credenda Agenda) says on the subject.
The civil magistrate is the minister of God to execute wrath on the wrongdoer (Rom. 13:4). God has not left his civil minister without guidance on how to exercise his office. The Scriptures set forth clear standards of judgment for many offenses. Capital crimes, for example, include premeditated killing (murder), kidnapping, sorcery, bestiality, adultery, homosexuality, and cursing one's parents (Ex. 21:14; 21:16; 22:18; 22:19; Lev. 20:10; 20:13; Ex. 21:17).
...
God commands the judge to evaluate the crime rather than the criminal. If the crime is one for which God requires death, then death must be the punishment. Your eye shall not pity. … Thus, the Bible teaches that pity is not an option where God has decided the matter. The magistrate, God's minister, is to faithfully execute justice according to God's standard, not man's.
Doug Wilson had to censure his own views on homosexuality during the debate. That's why he lost so badly. It's hard to defend a belief that you dare not express.
Posted by Steve Wells at 3/06/2013 11:37:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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 Stephen said...
Well, I got through Peter Hitchens's intro. How that individual came from the same womb as Christopher should be an area of intense research. Though a couple of his jokes (regarding men with beards and "weapons-grade Calvinism") were not too bad.
The student who introduced Hitchens... a senior majoring in microbiology and philosophy... wonder what is his take on evolution. ;-)
Steve, I give you credit for watching the whole thing... I'm not sure I can stomach it.
Steve Weeks
Wed Mar 06, 06:03:00 PM 2013 
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 27 April 2013And they fell on their faces
A recent tweet by StaticDespair was titled "The people in Bible times were too dramatic" and had a link to this image:






And it got me to thinking.

People in the Bible do some strange things when they get upset  They fall on their faces, tear their clothes, put sackcloth on their loins, and rub dirt on their heads. Stuff like that.

So I wondered, how many times, and under what circumstances, did people in the Bible do these things.

Here is my attempt to summarize it for you.

They fell on their faces.
When Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram ... and Abram fell on his face. Genesis 17:1-3

Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?. Genesis 17:17

And there came a fire out from before the LORD ... and ... when all the people saw, they shouted, and fell on their faces. Leviticus 9:24

Then Moses and Aaron fell on their faces. Numbers 14:5

And when Moses heard it, he fell upon his face. Numbers 16:4

And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying, Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment. And they fell upon their faces. Numbers 16:20-22

And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Get you up from among this congregation, that I may consume them as in a moment. And they fell upon their faces. Numbers 16:44-45

And they fell upon their faces: and the glory of the LORD appeared unto them. Numbers 20:6

Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he ... fell flat on his face. Numbers 22:31

Joshua ... lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand ... And Joshua fell on his face. Joshua 5:14

And Joshua ... fell to the earth upon his face before the ark of the LORD until the eventide. Joshua 7:6

The angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar. And Manoah and his wife looked on it, and fell on their faces. Judges 13:20

Then she fell on her face, and bowed herself to the ground, and said unto him, Why have I found grace in thine eyes? Ruth 2:10

David ... fell on his face to the ground, and bowed himself three times: and they kissed one another, and wept one with another, until David exceeded. 1 Samuel 20:41

Mephibosheth ... fell on his face. 2 Samuel 9:6

The woman of Tekoah ... fell on her face. 2 Samuel 14:4
Joab fell to the ground on his face. 2 Samuel 14:22
Ahimaaz ... fell ... upon his face. 2 Samuel 18:28

As Obadiah was in the way, behold, Elijah met him: and he knew him, and fell on his face, and said, Art thou that my lord Elijah? 1 Kings 18:7

And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces. 1 Kings 18:39

David lifted up his eyes, and saw the angel of the LORD stand between the earth and the heaven, having a drawn sword in his hand stretched out over Jerusalem.Then David and the elders of Israel, who were clothed in sackcloth, fell upon their faces. 1 Chronicles 21:16

I saw ... the appearance of his loins  ...This was ... the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face. Ezekiel 1:27-28

Behold, the glory of the Lord stood there ... and I fell on my face. Ezekiel 3:23

While they were slaying them ... I fell on my face. Ezekiel 9:8

And it came to pass, when I prophesied, that Pelatiah the son of Benaiah died. Then fell I down upon my face.  Ezekiel 11:13

And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came ... and his voice was like a noise of many waters ... and I fell upon my face. Ezekiel 43:2-3

Behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house of the LORD: and I fell upon my face. Ezekiel 44:4

King Nebuchadnezzar fell upon his face, and worshiped Daniel. Daniel 2:46

I was afraid, and fell upon my face. Daniel 8:17

And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face. Matthew 17:6

And he went a little farther, and fell on his face. Matthew 26:39

A man full of leprosy... fell on his face. Luke 5:12
And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God, And fell down on his face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan. Luke 17:15-16
All the angels ... and the four beasts ... fell before the throne on their faces. Revelation 7:11

The four and twenty elders ... fell upon their faces. Revelation 11:16

They rent their clothes.
Reuben returned unto the pit; and, behold, Joseph was not in the pit; and he rent his clothes. Genesis 37:29
And Jacob rent his clothes Genesis 37:34
They speedily took down every man his sack to the ground, and opened every man his sack ...  and the cup was found in Benjamin's sack. Then they rent their clothes. Genesis 44:12-13
And Joshua ... and Caleb ... rent their clothes. Numbers 14:6

Jephthah came to ... his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances ... And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he rent his clothes. Judges 11:34-35
Samuel ... laid hold upon the skirt of his mantle, and it rent. 1 Samuel 15:27-28
Then David took hold on his clothes, and rent them; and likewise all the men that were with him. 2 Samuel 1:11

David said to Joab, and to all the people that were with him, Rend your clothes. 2 Samuel 3:31
And Tamar put ashes on her head, and rent her garment of divers colours that was on her, and laid her hand on her head, and went on crying. 2 Samuel 13:19
Then the king arose, and tare his garments, and lay on the earth; and all his servants stood by with their clothes rent. 2 Samuel 13:31
Ahijah caught the new garment that was on him, and rent it in twelve pieces ... for thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel, Behold, I will rend the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon. 1 Kings 11:30-31

When Ahab heard those words, that he rent his clothes. 1 Kings 21:27

And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father ... and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces. 2 Kings 2:12

When the king of Israel had read the letter ... he rent his clothes. 2 Kings 5:7

When Elisha the man of God had heard that the king of Israel had rent his clothes, that he sent to the king, saying, Wherefore hast thou rent thy clothes? 2 Kings 5:8

So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him. And it came to pass, when the king heard the words of the woman ... he rent his clothes. 2 Kings 6:30

When king Hezekiah heard it, that he rent his clothes. 2 Kings 19:1

When the king had heard the words of the book of the law, that he rent his clothes. 2 Kings 22:11

Because ... thou ... hast rent thy clothes ... I also have heard thee, saith the LORD. 2 Kings 22:19
 
Then Athaliah rent her clothes, and said, Treason, Treason. 2 Chronicles 23:13
Because thine heart was tender ... didst rend thy clothes, and weep before me; I have even heard thee also, saith the LORD. 2 Chronicles 34:27
Mordecai rent his clothes ... and went out into the midst of the city, and cried with a loud and a bitter cry. Esther 4:1

When they lifted up their eyes afar off ... they lifted up their voice, and wept; and they rent every one his mantle. Job 2:12

When king Hezekiah heard it, that he rent his clothes ... and went into the house of the LORD. Isaiah 37:1
There came certain from Shechem, from Shiloh, and from Samaria, even fourscore men, having their beards shaven, and their clothes rent, and having cut themselves, with offerings and incense in their hand, to bring them to the house of the LORD. Jeremiah 41:5
Then the high priest rent his clothes. Matthew 26:65, Mark 14:63
Therefore also now, saith the Lord ... ren your heart, and not your garments. Joel 2:12-13
When the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out, and saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? Acts 14:4

The magistrates rent off their clothes, and commanded to beat them. Acts 16:22
They put sackcloth on their loins
Jacob ... put sackcloth upon his loins, and mourned for his son many days. Genesis 37:34
David said to Joab, and to all the people that were with him ... gird you with sackcloth. 2 Samuel 3:31
And his servants said unto him ... let us, I pray thee, put sackcloth on our loins, and ropes upon our heads ... So they girded sackcloth on their loins, and put ropes on their heads. 1 Kings 20:31-32
When Ahab heard those words, that he rent his clothes, and put sackcloth upon his flesh, and fasted, and lay in sackcloth, and went softly. 1 Kings 21:27
When the king heard the words of the woman ... he passed by upon the wall, and the people looked, and, behold, he had sackcloth within upon his flesh. 2 Kings 6:30
When king Hezekiah heard it, he ... covered himself with sackcloth, and went into the house of the LORD. 2 Kings 19:1
David and the elders of Israel ... were clothed in sackcloth. 1 Chronicles 21:16
Mordecai ... put on sackcloth with ashes, and went out into the midst of the city, and cried with a loud and a bitter cry. Esther 4:1
There was great mourning among the Jews, and fasting, and weeping, and wailing; and many lay in sackcloth and ashes. Esther 4:3
I have sewed sackcloth upon my skin, and defiled my horn in the dust. Job 16:15
I made sackcloth also my garment; and I became a proverb to them. Psalm 69:11
And it shall come to pass, that instead of sweet smell there shall be stink; and instead of a girdle a rent; and instead of well set hair baldness; and instead of a stomacher a girding of sackcloth. Isaiah 3:24
On all their heads shall be baldness, and every beard cut off ... they shall gird themselves with sackcloth ... every one shall howl, weeping abundantly. Isaiah 15:2-3
At the same time spake the LORD ... saying, Go and loose the sackcloth from off thy loins ... and he did so, walking naked. Isaiah 20:2
In that day did the Lord GOD of hosts call ... to girding with sackcloth. Isaiah 22:12
Tremble, ye women that are at ease; be troubled, ye careless ones: strip you, and make you bare, and gird sackcloth upon your loins. Isaiah 32: 11
When king Hezekiah heard it ... he ... covered himself with sackcloth, and went into the house of the LORD. Isaiah 37:1
Gird you with sackcloth, lament and howl: for the fierce anger of the LORD is not turned back from us. Jeremiah 4:8
Gird thee with sackcloth, and wallow thyself in ashes. Jeremiah 6:26
Every head shall be bald, and every beard clipped: upon all the hands shall be cuttings, and upon the loins sackcloth. Jeremiah 48:37
Gird you with sackcloth; lament, and run to and fro by the hedges. Jeremiah 49:3
The elders of the daughter of Zion sit upon the ground, and ... have girded themselves with sackcloth. Lamentation 2:10
They shall also gird themselves with sackcloth, and horror shall cover them; and shame shall be upon all faces, and baldness upon all their heads. Ezekiel 7:18
And they shall make themselves utterly bald for thee, and gird them with sackcloth, and they shall weep for thee with bitterness of heart and bitter wailing. Ezekiel 27:31
I set my face unto the Lord God ... with ... sackcloth, and ashes. Daniel 9:3
Lament like a virgin girded with sackcloth for the husband of her youth. Joel 1:8
Gird yourselves, and ... howl ... lie all night in sackcloth. Joel 1:13
I will turn your feasts into mourning, and all your songs into lamentation; and I will bring up sackcloth upon all loins, and baldness upon every head; and I will make it as the mourning of an only son, and the end thereof as a bitter day. Amos 8:10
So the people of Nineveh believed God ... and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them. Jonah 3:5
The king of Nineveh ... laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes. Jonah 3:6
Let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God. Jonah 3:8
Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. Matthew 11:4, Luke 10:13
I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth..Revelation 11:3
And they put dust on their heads.
Joshua ... and the elders of Israel ... put dust upon their heads. Joshua 7:6
And Tamar put ashes on her head, and rent her garment of divers colours that was on her, and laid her hand on her head, and went on crying. 2 Samuel 13:19
When they lifted up their eyes afar off, and knew him not, they lifted up their voice, and wept and ... sprinkled dust upon their heads. Job 2:12

The elders of the daughter of Zion sit upon the ground, and have cast up dust upon their heads. Lamentations 2:10

The mariners ... shall cast up dust upon their heads. Ezekiel 27:29-30

Roll thyself in the dust ... having thy shame naked. Micah 1:10-11

They cried out, and cast off their clothes, and threw dust into the air. Acts 22:22
Let me know if I left anything out.







Posted by Steve Wells at 4/27/2013 04:44:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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9 comments:
 Stephen said...
How much did it cost to rent those clothes? ;-)
Steve Weeks
Sat Apr 27, 09:03:00 PM 2013 
 viatia said...
Renting clothes:
(I can't help but think of the Tom Haverford character and his company "Rent-a-Swag" on "Parks and Recreation" who "rents his clothes", specifically his fancy clothes, to school boys.)
2 Samuel 13:19, ashes on head AND rent garment
"And Tamar put ashes on her head, and rent her garment of divers colours that was on her, and laid her hand on her head, and went on crying."
2 Samuel 13:31, tare garments, lay on the earth, and rent clothes
"Then the king arose, and tare his garments, and lay on the earth; and all his servants stood by with their clothes rent."
Jer 36:24, rent mentioned, but nobody renting,
"Yet they were not afraid, nor rent their garments, ..."
Joel 2:13, "rend" instead of "rent", but what does rending one's heart mean?
"And rend your heart, and not your garments, ..."
2 Chron 34:27, "rend" for "rent",
"Because thine heart was tender, and thou didst humble thyself before God, when thou heardest his words against this place, and against the inhabitants thereof, and humbledst thyself before me, and didst rend thy clothes, and weep before me; I have even heard thee also, saith the Lord."
1 Kings 18:28, rent clothes, cut skin, kind of the same thing
"And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their manner with knives and lancets, till the blood gushed out upon them."
Jer 41:5, rent clothes AND cut skin
"That there came certain from Shechem, from Shiloh, and from Samaria, even fourscore men, having their beards shaven, and their clothes rent, and having cut themselves, with offerings and incense in their hand, to bring them to the house of the Lord."
Face falling:
2 Samuel 14:22
"And Joab fell to the ground on his face, and bowed himself, and thanked the king: and Joab said, To day thy servant knoweth that I have found grace in thy sight, my lord, O king, in that the king hath fulfilled the request of his servant."
Luke 17:16
"And fell down on his face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan."
Sat Apr 27, 09:21:00 PM 2013 
 Stephen said...
Ecclesiastes has some general advice on rending:
3:7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
It seems reasonable that times that call for face-falling and ash-wearing also are appropriate for various sorts of rending.
These days there's more "rendition" than rending in the news. <_<
Steve Weeks
Sun Apr 28, 07:51:00 AM 2013 
 Steve Wells said...
Thanks viatia,
I'm adding your suggestions to the post and the SAB.
Sun Apr 28, 03:12:00 PM 2013 
 fenm said...
Nah, they weren't over-dramatic, they were just really, really clumsy.
Mon Apr 29, 09:51:00 AM 2013 
 Saurabh Ghosh said...
I think I might have rent my clothes from laughing! Fantastic collection and comments! :D
Tue Apr 30, 03:30:00 AM 2013 
 wjanoch said...
Rent (to rip apart) a garment, is like when someone is so passionately sad / angry they punch a wall. If you don't understand this action, be glad that you have never had such an awful feeling.
Ashes may serve a purpose we don't understand today. Maybe when you loose someone you love dearly, and you're so sad you could wish you were dead, then maybe throwing ashes on your head will help in a way that just doesn't make sense at any other time.
Falling on one's face before someone is simply bowing down low to the ground. It's an act where the bow'er declares the other person to be of very high status. It's like saluting in the army, or, ironically, standing when a judge enters a court room.
Tue Apr 30, 07:14:00 AM 2013 
 Stephen said...
Now-a-days, when someone falls on his face, it's not reported!
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/may/1/media-make-orwellian-scrub-face-first-fall-horse-t/
;-)
Steve Weeks
Wed May 01, 01:09:00 PM 2013 
 Brucker said...
I could have sworn there was more about ripping out hair (Ezra 9:3) and beating on chests (Luke 18:13), but maybe I'm not searching the Bible with the right terms?
Of course, you might want to consider adding instances of people begging to be put to death (Judges 9:54, 1Samuel 31:4, probably others I can't think of).
Thu May 16, 03:04:00 PM 2013 
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 22 April 2013Bill Maher: I am not an Islamophobe, I am a truth lover.



 Here's an excerpt.
Levin: It's not like it's people who are Muslim who do wacky things have a monopoly on it. We have hypocrites across faiths...
Maher: You know what, that is liberal bullshit right there.
Levin: There are no religious hypocrites? You made a career on that.
Maher: They're not as dangerous. There's only one only one faith, for example, that kills you, or wants to kill you, if you draw a bad cartoon of the prophet. There's only on faith that kills you, or wants to kill you, if you renounce the faith. An ex-Muslim is a very dangerous thing. Talk to Salman Rushdie after the show about Christian versus Islam.
Levin: I have a girl for you, Pam Geller, you can maybe meet.
Maher: I don't know what that means.
Levin: Well, she's an Islamophobe.
Maher: I'm not an Islamophobe, That's wrong. I am a truth lover. All religions are not alike.
Bill Maher is right: It's time to drop the liberal bullshit.
All religions are not the same. Let's stop pretending like they are.
Posted by Steve Wells at 4/22/2013 10:17:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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7 comments:
 Stephen said...
Now, now... let's not be culturally insensitive. ;-)
Steve Weeks
Mon Apr 22, 08:22:00 PM 2013 
 Yark Hutprancer said...
Maher is correct in that, at this time in history, Islam is the most volatile religion. However, there are still violent acts being done by Christians and Buddhists and other religionists around the world, and these acts aren't covered as intensely by the media. The sad truth is that any of these religions, especially Christianity because of it's clearly built-in hatred for all who don't believe, could flare up at any time. Yes, right now Islam is bad, but all these religions are still bad because they sell untruth and they condemn the non-believer.
Tue Apr 23, 10:54:00 AM 2013 
 wjkolar said...
All religions are basically the same. What is different is that in our western culture religion is moderated buy secular influences. This is one reason it is so important to maintain a separation between religion and state.
Tue Apr 23, 09:11:00 PM 2013 
 Pocketguy said...
Does Yark or anyone else have an example of people killing others in the name of Buddhism? (I suspect that religions really are different and it will be hard to find one.)
The Crusades are a ready example of murder in the name of Christianity, so I don't need an example of that.
Wed May 01, 09:42:00 PM 2013 
 wjkolar said...
http://www.nowpublic.com/world/form-buddhism-preaches-violence-and-hatred-sri-lanka
The hard line Buddhists monks who are mostly seen in the Political stage and protests have been the main force driving the hatred against Tamils in Sri Lanka. In their preachings and prayers, they have taught one and only one thing to the Sinhalese majority; "This island belongs to Sinhalese only and everybody else need to be eliminated.".
Continue reading at NowPublic.com: Form of Buddhism that preaches violence and hatred in Sri Lanka | NowPublic Photo Archives http://www.nowpublic.com/world/form-buddhism-preaches-violence-and-hatred-sri-lanka#ixzz2S72yEhQh

Wed May 01, 11:07:00 PM 2013 
 IdeaMan said...
All religions are dangerous, but Muslims take their religion more seriously which makes their religion more dangerous. I believe its because the requirements of Islam for the individual are modest and achievable as opposed to other religions which have requirements for individuals that are impossible or impractical. Muslims are never forced to compromise as individuals on their requirements and therefore never forced to question any of the wisdom in their religion as a result of trying to follow that religion. The social requirements of Islam are impossible (zakat does not provide enough revenue for the government) but Muslims blame someone else for that failure and not the religion itself.
Sat May 04, 01:34:00 PM 2013 
 Brucker said...
I see Yark Hutprancer beat me to it, but if Maher specifically means that Islam is the only major religion in the 21st century that does this sort of thing, I'd agree. If he's trying to imply Islam is the only religion like that ever, he's clearly wrong. As people love to point out, we Christians had the Crusades and the Inquisition among other lesser-known historical incidents, and if one assumes that the ancient Israelites actually followed the letter of the Mosaic Law, then there was plenty of stuff like that in their early history.
I was quite impressed with the insightfulness of this Daily Show segment which compares Islam to an unruly teenager, and points out that most major religions seem to go through an "awkward phase", so to speak.
Thu May 16, 03:15:00 PM 2013 
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 19 April 2013That they all may be one: John 17 and the futility of prayer
Jesus didn't pray much in the gospels, but in John 17, he really got carried away.
He goes on and on for 24 verses, asking his father to glorify him with the same glory that he had back before the universe was created.
These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son ... And now, O Father, glorify thou me ... with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. John 17:1-5
It's pretty boring stuff, until he says this:
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.  John 17:20-23
From which we can conclude two things:
Nothing fails like prayer (even when Jesus does the praying), and
God didn't send Jesus.



Posted by Steve Wells at 4/19/2013 11:34:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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3 comments:
 TWF said...
I just touched on this very same theme earlier today in my study across all of the Gospels regarding Jesus' prayer before the arrest. I found that issue to be the most interesting part of that whole rambling prayer in John 17 too. Well put. It is somewhat of an easy proof of Jesus' lack of divinity, or at least the falsehood of John's Gospel.
Did you make that schism timeline chart? That's pretty nice.
Fri Apr 19, 03:18:00 PM 2013 
 Toss Salad said...
This is my first time posting, but I have read through your posts on the tally of killings (and their very interesting comments), and I commend you for your detailed work.
Assuming that your general premise is to argue the fallibility/falsehood of the Bible/Christianity, and that this post is to satirize your target, I think you might be better off finding other passages than this prayer to deconstruct.
The way Christians are likely to reply is by presenting Jesus in John as the "Word" which became the "Son". Jesus is both 100% "man" but who is also somehow 100% filled with God. Don't ask how; that's the leap of faith which is supposed to make sense. Anyway, this relates to the beginning of John, and so this passage, at Jesus' death in flesh, marks the end of Jesus' ministry and is a concluding statement for what he was here to do, written for the benefit of readers. This prayer can even be said to be partly rhetorical in nature. This passage is within the Last Supper. Immediately preceding John 17 (at the end of John 16), Jesus' disciples are gathered around him and are waiting to hear more words of wisdom and comfort, for Jesus had told somewhat mysteriously that he is leaving and they cannot follow. Jesus' concluding prayer may not necessarily be to actually beg the Father for anything. Rather, he is simply verbalizing his ultimate desire for his disciples to unify in one system of belief in Jesus' divinity.
If the prayer is in fact a bona fide prayer, however, why does Jesus need to pray to God (even if he is God)? Because he "is also man", and experiences everything a (most perfect) man will experience and want. Of course, this belief then requires the belief in not only that somehow, while he is perfectly 100% God, there exists some chasm between Jesus the Man and Jesus the God/Word. Of course, this apparent contradiction between a perfect man (man, by Biblical definition, cannot be perfect) who is filled with God and yet is also imperfect so as to require additional shoring up between this split personality is overlooked by Christians. Maybe Christians simply use the token "God works in mysterious ways" to paper things over and think about happier thoughts instead.
Fri Apr 19, 08:23:00 PM 2013 
 Stephen said...
He goes on and on for 24 verses, asking his father to glorify him with the same glory that he had back before the universe was created.
These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son ... And now, O Father, glorify thou me ... with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. John 17:1-5
I must point out a discrepancy of about 8.7 billion years, during which Jesus was basking in glory before the world was created.
The Universe is about 13.2 billion years old, while the world, a relative baby, is only about 4.2 billion years of age. It was during those 8.7 billion years that stars were exploding and coughing up the heavy elements that make up the world and everything in it... including Jesus!
Steve Weeks
Sat Apr 20, 07:51:00 AM 2013 
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 07 April 2013The First Plague of Egypt: God forced the Egyptians to drink human blood



Okay, I could use some help with this one.
Remember the first of the famous ten plagues of Egypt? The plague of blood?
Well, I didn’t include it in God's killings since the text in Exodus didn't say that anyone died. But now I'm not so sure.

Here’s the story from Exodus 7.

God told Moses to tell Aaron to smite all the water in Egypt with his rod (the one that he previously turned into a serpent and then back into a rod in Exodus 7:9-12), which will change the water into blood.


And the LORD spake unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and stretch out thine hand upon the waters of Egypt, upon their streams, upon their rivers, and upon their ponds, and upon all their pools of water, that they may become blood; and that there may be blood throughout all the land of Egypt; both in vessels of wood, and in vessels of stone. v.19
And Moses and Aaron did so, as the LORD commanded. v.20



And it worked as planned. The fish died, the river stank, and the Egyptians had no water to drink.


And the fish that was in the river died; and the river stank, and the Egyptians could not drink of the water of the river; and there was blood throughout all the land of Egypt. v.21



For seven days, apparently.


And seven days were fulfilled, after that the LORD had smitten the river. v.25




Which must have killed some people, since, even under the most favorable conditions, a person can’t survive for more than a few days without water.



And then there's this from the book of Wisdom.


Instead of a fountain of an ever running river, thou gavest human blood to the unjust ... shewing ... how thou ... didst kill their adversaries. Wisdom 11:7-9




Although it isn't entirely clear to me, this passage seems to refer to the first plague of Egypt.


Here's the helpful note from the Douay-Reims Bible.
God ... wrought a miracle to punish the Egyptians by thirst, when he turned all their waters into blood, (at which time the Israelites, who were exempt from those plagues, had plenty of water,) wrought another miracle in favour of his own people in their thirst, by giving them water out of the rock.
So the first plague involved human blood!
Where did God get so much blood? Enough blood to fill the Nile River?
Did God kill people just to use their blood in the first plague? Or did he create the human blood from scratch?
And since at least some of the Egyptians refused to drink the human blood that God provided, some of them must have died of thirst.
In any case, in one way or another, some Egyptians died in the first plague. But how many?
Let me know if you have any suggestions for arriving at an estimate.
Posted by Steve Wells at 4/07/2013 07:17:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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14 comments:
 amulbunny's random thoughts said...
Beer was more readily drank than water in ancient times for good reason, excrement, pollution from bronze age industry. Beer wasn't the PBR or Sam Adams we love and cherish, but it was better than water.
Sun Apr 07, 07:21:00 PM 2013 
 Steve Wells said...
So God didn't give them blood, human or otherwise. He gave them beer.
Is that what you're saying amulbunny?
Sun Apr 07, 07:54:00 PM 2013 
 G said...
If you take this story on face value, I would not believe anyone, especially some of the Egyptians, would actually die of thirst, before drinking blood that consists of about 80% water.
Sun Apr 07, 10:20:00 PM 2013 
 TheEngineer said...
The average flowrate for the Nile river is 300,000,000 cubic meters per day. http://tinyurl.com/buyfxex
At this rate for 7 days, the required volume of blood is 2,100,000,000 cubic meters.
The average human has 5 liters of blood = 0.005 cubic meters. So, in order to provide 2.1 billion cubic meters of blood you need to kill 2.1x10^9/0.005 = 420 BILLION people.
I think this killing tops them all!
Mon Apr 08, 11:52:00 AM 2013 
 Stephen said...
Holy Cow!! The blood of 420 million people! If memory serves, that's more than Jesus releases with his swingin' sickle in Revelations.
Now, I have some questions about this blood. What type is it: A, B, AB, O? Is it Rh (+) or (-)? Is it anticoagulated? Seems to me God would want it to be heparinized (or maybe he used acid citrate dextrose) so it wouldn't clot. If it clotted the Egyptians would have thought it was some sort of pudding.
But seriously: if YaWeigh can open the "windows of heaven" and release more water than could possibly exist on earth, he could conjure up as much blood as he wants. But isn't it lucky there weren't any Jojoba's Witnesses then? They don't like blood much I hear.
Steve Weeks
Mon Apr 08, 08:41:00 PM 2013 
 Nathan said...
I read through Exodus over "Passover Houses With Lambsblood as a Reminder to Myself Not to Murder These People that I'll Re-sell Back into slavery 6 times a few books later (Judges). Sorry though, because of 1 man whose heart I divinely hardened I am killing all you little worthless innocent Egyptian firstborn babies and firstborn cattle (the cattle were previously killed in the 5th plague but God forgot cause his memory is bad) weekend."
Cool story!
Also noting that Exodus was written in the 6th century BCE. Famous real people that lived then were Confucius, Pythagoras, Buddha, etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6th_century_BC
These historical people that actually existed never heard about these plagues. God must have distracted them.
World population was roughly 100 million in the 6th century BCE. Out of 100 million people that were alive nobody wrote this historically true event down. God must have tricked them.
I think he was so drunk he told all the snakes and cattle thinking they would tell the humans...He was so smashed and embarrassed of his actions and pure stupidity that he only told 1 person out of the 100 million. It was his embarrassing secret. The next day he made all the people forget what had happened, especially focusing on the family members that lost their little innocent Egyptian babies.
After the 10th plague in Exodus 12:3-30 he promised to sober up.
This also explains the population explosion in 12:37. He wanted to change from his drunk ways.
He checked himself into AA for a couple days but relapsed in 12:48 where he was so drunk he said “A foreigner residing among you who wants to celebrate the Lord’s Passover must have all the males in his household circumcised"
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+12%3A48&version=NIV



Tue Apr 09, 01:38:00 AM 2013 
 Stephen said...
Nathan: Priceless!
Steve Weeks
Tue Apr 09, 04:00:00 AM 2013 
 Wendy Van Dijk said...
I guess a god than can produce water from solid rock can produce blood as well. Plus, the only reference to the blood being "human blood" is in Wisdom. Maybe the blood was a mixture of human blood and animal blood. Maybe he stole some technology from the year 2040, when we will be able to produce blood using nanobots and 3D-printers.
Tue Apr 09, 04:46:00 AM 2013 
 Stephen said...
Further to the question of how long can a person live without water...
"Exposure to a hot environment and vigorous exercise both increase body temperature. The only physiological mechanism humans have to keep from overheating is sweating. Evaporation of sweat cools blood in vessels in the skin, which helps to cool the entire body. Under extreme conditions an adult can lose between one and 1.5 liters of sweat an hour. If that lost water is not replaced, the total volume of body fluid can fall quickly and, most dangerously, blood volume may drop. If this happens, two potentially life-threatening problems arise: sweating stops and body temperature can soar even higher, while blood pressure decreases because of the low blood volume. Under such conditions, death occurs quickly. Because of their relatively larger skin surface-to-volume ratio, children are especially susceptible to rapid overheating and dehydration."
Source: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=how-long-can-the-average
Egypt would be considered a hot place, no? So the number of deaths would likely be large, and disproportionately children. Nice. This might have significantly reduced the number of "first-born" children to die in the Passover by killing them off first. I'd guess that 50% of the population croaking (the second plague!) would be a reasonable estimate.
Ingesting a lot of blood can cause a person to vomit, leading to dehydration and eventually to the Pearly Gates. So a significant proportion of those Egyptians who tried to slake their thirst with blood probably would have died as well. Some of these would have been destined to die anyway, so it's hard to say if there would need to be another category of deaths.
I'd say 50% mortality would be fair. Now, what was the poulation of Egypt at that time? Should you subtract the Hebrews from the total population? Surely Yahoo provided his chosen folks with bottled water.
The *real* question is: How did Egypt smell after no one could bathe, except in blood, for a week?
Steve Weeks?
Tue Apr 09, 08:32:00 AM 2013 
 Steve Wells said...
Thanks TheEngineer for the calculation. I repeated the it using Wikipedia's value for the average flow of the Nile (2830 cubic meters / second) and came up with 342 billion victims. But what's 80 billion dead people to God? (I wonder where the Egyptian magicians got their blood when they repeated God's bloody trick.)
Fri Apr 12, 08:29:00 AM 2013 
 Steve Wells said...
Thanks Steve for the helpful analysis. And your 50% mortality estimate seems reasonable to me. So I guess I could use McEvedy and Jones's estimate of 3 million for the Egyptian population at the time the Exodus supposedly occurred, and guess 1.5 million victims. Of course that will change the number of victims in the seventh and tenth plagues, but so be it. I'll adjust them accordingly.
Fri Apr 12, 08:49:00 AM 2013 
 Ya Plagu Ga said...
I can think of two ways to explain the mechanics of the Plagues (maybe you can think of more?) --
1. The plagues were caused by natural disaster and evidence may be found in natural history (e.g. collapse of Bronze Age civilizations in the Mediterranean due to the Thera volcanic eruption); however, Biblical chronology does not measure up. At least one Christian has attempted to reconcile actual history and evidence with the Bible by adding 1,000 years to the Biblical timeline, which then squares things away as far as Exodus is concerned, although this argument is based on, ironically, an alleged typo in the original Hebrew text (so much for Biblical infallibility).
In any event, such an argument will conclude along the lines of "The evidence shows it really did/could have happened!" -- but the problem is precisely in the evidence. If the Thera eruption caused the Plagues, then that seems to point away from a divine, intentional origin specifically used by God to punish the Egyptians.
2. Because the Israelites' water was not affected, the Egyptians spent exorbitant sums of gold, silver and other valuables to buy water from the Israelites. This explains both how there were still Egyptians left and how the Israelites got away with so much booty (despite being in such a hurry to leave that they couldn't even wait for their bread to rise). But this reasoning raises two new problems. First, why would the Egyptians try to buy anything from their Israelite slaves? Wouldn't the Egyptians have simply expropriated the Israelites' water, since they were the Egyptians' property anyway, and it was also during a time of national emergency? Second, would the Israelites have been able to hoarded so much water not only for themselves, their livestock and their crops for one week, but also sufficient water for the Egyptians, their livestock and crops too? Assuming that the Egyptians held the vast majority of arable and irrigated land, and based on the fact that irrigation is the major consumer of water, the Israelites would have to hoard quite a bit. Maybe someone can do a mathematical model for such a possibility too and account for how much hoarding would be needed. Moreover, hoarded water will go stagnant and bad; did God bless their water so that it remained clear and potable for the whole week?
Fri Apr 19, 08:57:00 PM 2013 
 Bandido said...
It was not real blood but a red tide cause by a red algae which blooms usually during environmental distress which also explains the other plagues that were listed in the fantasy book. Nothing supernatural about
Sat Apr 20, 08:59:00 AM 2013 
 Michael said...
Here's an interesting detail regarding the plague of blood. In Exodus 7:14-21 we find Moses and Aaron changing all (yes, all) the water into blood, but look what happens in the very next verse:
"Then the king's magicians did the same thing by means of their magic."
As Foote and Ball remark in their "Bible Handbook", Moses and Aaron cleverly transmuted all the water there was, but their opponents still more cleverly transmuted all the water there wasn't!
Tue Apr 30, 12:50:00 AM 2013 
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 25 May 2013Mosiah 22: The escape of the Nephites
Ammon and Lemhi decide to call a meeting of all the people. There was only one order of business: how to deliver themselves out of bondage.
And now it came to pass that Ammon and king Limhi began to consult with the people how they should deliver themselves out of bondage; and even they did cause that all the people should gather themselves together; and this they did that they might have the voice of the people concerning the matter. 22.1
After a lengthy discussion, they decided that the only option was to run away. (They tried fighting last chapter, remember?)
And it came to pass that they could find no way to deliver themselves out of bondage, except it were to take their women and children, and their flocks, and their herds, and their tents, and depart into the wilderness; for the Lamanites being so numerous, it was impossible for the people of Limhi to contend with them, thinking to deliver themselves out of bondage by the sword. 22.2
But they still needed a plan. Luckily, a man named Gideon had a great idea: to get the Lamanites drunk and escape through the back door. He explains it to us in the next 6 verses.

Now it came to pass that Gideon went forth and stood before the king, and said unto him: Now O king, thou hast hitherto hearkened unto my words many times when we have been contending with our brethren, the Lamanites. 22.3 
And now O king, if thou hast not found me to be an unprofitable servant, or if thou hast hitherto listened to my words in any degree, and they have been of service to thee, even so I desire that thou wouldst listen to my words at this time, and I will be thy servant and deliver this people out of bondage. 22.4
And the king granted unto him that he might speak. And Gideon said unto him: 22.5
Behold the back pass, through the back wall, on the back side of the city. The Lamanites, or the guards of the Lamanites, by night are drunken; therefore let us send a proclamation among all this people that they gather together their flocks and herds, that they may drive them into the wilderness by night. 22.6 
And I will go according to thy command and pay the last tribute of wine to the Lamanites, and they will be drunken; and we will pass through the secret pass on the left of their camp when they are drunken and asleep. 22.7 
Thus we will depart with our women and our children, our flocks, and our herds into the wilderness; and we will travel around the land of Shilom.  22.8

So that's what they did. King Limhi followed Gideon's plan, and everything went off without a hitch. And after many days of wandering in the wilderness, they arrived at the land of Zarahemla and joined Mosiah's people.
And it came to pass that the king hearkened unto the words of Gideon. 22.9
And king Limhi caused that his people should gather their flocks together; and he sent the tribute of wine to the Lamanites; and he also sent more wine, as a present unto them; and they did drink freely of the wine which king Limhi did send unto them. 22.10 
And it came to pass that the people of king Limhi did depart by night into the wilderness with their flocks and their herds, and they went round about the land of Shilom in the wilderness, and bent their course towards the land of Zarahemla, being led by Ammon and his brethren. 22.11 
And they had taken all their gold, and silver, and their precious things, which they could carry, and also their provisions with them, into the wilderness; and they pursued their journey. 22.12
And after being many days in the wilderness they arrived in the land of Zarahemla, and joined Mosiah's people, and became his subjects. 22.13 
And it came to pass that Mosiah received them with joy; and he also received their records, and also the records which had been found by the people of Limhi. 22.14
When the Lamanites woke up from their hangover, they sent out an army after the Nephites. After two days of pursuit, the army gets lost in the wilderness.
And now it came to pass when the Lamanites had found that the people of Limhi had departed out of the land by night, that they sent an army into the wilderness to pursue them; 22.15 
And after they had pursued them two days, they could no longer follow their tracks; therefore they were lost in the wilderness. 22.16


If I was etching this story onto brass plates, I probably would have paraphrased Mosiah 22 like this:
THE NEPHITES GOT THE LAMANITES DRUNK AND LEFT OUT THE BACK DOOR
But that's just lazy. 
Posted by Philip Wells at 5/25/2013 04:30:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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1 comment:
 Robert said...
Sometimes it is better to turn and run.
Sorry. That's all I got.
Wed May 29, 10:50:00 AM 2013 
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 22 May 2013Bill Maher: Christian Rock Blows Hard (with Bible verses)

New rule: If you're a Christian heavy metal singer, like this clod is, and you're accused of hiring a guy to kill your wife, as this clod was, you have to admit you're really just a regular heavy metal singer.
C'mon dude, read your bible. God says you're not allowed to kill your wife.
Unless she's gay
Their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature ... They which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. Romans 1:24-32
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. Leviticus 20:13
(In the spirit of the law this would probably apply to lesbians too.)
cheating
And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. Leviticus 20:10
a witch
Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. Exodus 22:18
(Exodus 22:19 is listed, but that refers to women that have sex with animals.)
a fortune teller
A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them. Leviticus 20:27 (Not on Bill Maher's list, but would probably apply to fortune tellers.)
not a virgin
And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire. Leviticus 21:9
If ... the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die. Deuteronomy 22:20-21
worshiping another god
Whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. 2 Chronicles 15:13
If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities ... men [or women] ... saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known ... Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword. Deuteronomy 13:12-15
If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that ... hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them ... Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die. Deuteronomy 17:2-5
worshiping no god
Whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. 2 Chronicles 15:13
cursing her dad
Whoso curseth his [or her] father or his mother, his [or her] lamp shall be put out in obscure darkness. Proverbs 20:20 (Not highlighted in the SAB. I need to add this one. Thanks Bill!)
For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him. Leviticus 20:9
hitting her dad
He [or she] that smiteth his [or her] father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death. Exodus 21:15
ignoring a priest
The man [or woman, I suppose] that ... will not hearken unto the priest ... or unto the judge, even that man shall die. Deuteronomy 17:12
approaching a tabernacle
Those to encamp before the tabernacle ... were Moses and Aaron and his sons ... any one else who came near was to be put to death. Numbers 3:38 (Revised Standard Version) [Not on the Maher's list, but probably applies.]
or working on Sunday.
My sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations ... Ye shall keep the sabbath ... every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death. Exodus 31:13-14
Otherwise hands off.
Oh, and Ecclesias [Ecclesiastes] says, "the wind continually blows."
The wind ... whirleth about continually. Ecclesisates 1:6
But not as hard as Christian rock.
Posted by Steve Wells at 5/22/2013 11:46:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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6 comments:
 yminoh said...
Luv Bill!!!
Fri May 24, 06:01:00 AM 2013 
 Christian said...
When I first heard this story I laughed, and hearing Bill giving Christian reasons for killing your wife just makes it better.
I am just glad he got caught before his wife actually got murdered.
Tue May 28, 11:51:00 PM 2013 
 Robert said...
How many people still don't understand that the Old Testament was an ancient guide to running a Theocracy not a Democracy???
Do you want to live under a regime like that? You better pray they never get control of our government.
Wed May 29, 10:47:00 AM 2013 
 Stephen said...
I like to listen to a "thumper" radio station when there's nothing good on Public Radio. It's almost constantly entertaining... until they start playing the christian rock. It's pretty much either breathy male singers moaning about how their god is a loving god to a backdrop of power chords, or a delicate female singing something like "softly and tenderly Jesus is waiting..."
Then it's back to NPR no matter how boring it is!
Steve Weeks
Wed Jun 05, 07:26:00 AM 2013 
 El said...
This is a great site that honestly trashes the Bible.
I concentrate on the Bible but I also expose the Koran as well.
Robert makes a great point. Mosiac law is as brutal as Sharia law.
@Stephen, I love to troll Christian Chatrooms. I would love to organize a mass trolling of a Christian Chat Room.

You may want to embed this this in one of your articles. It about Jesus wising up and confronting his brutal father.
https://soundcloud.com/cg-brady/jcs-lament-1
Wed Jun 12, 10:42:00 AM 2013 
 Emily Burdett said...
I think I'm in love with this blog and I've only known about it's existence for five minutes.
Tue Jun 18, 07:31:00 PM 2013 
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 22 May 2013Mosiah 21: The Lord did not see fit to deliver them out of bondage
Poor Limhi couldn't catch a break. After the incident with the stolen Lamanite daughters, he made an agreement with the Lamanite king. Apparently he wasn't specific enough, because soon after the Lamanites were surrounding them on all sides, putting heavy burdens on their backs and treating them like dumb-asses.
And it came to pass that after many days the Lamanites began again to be stirred up in anger against the Nephites, and they began to come into the borders of the land round about. Mosiah 21.2
Now they durst not slay them, because of the oath which their king had made unto Limhi; but they would smite them on their cheeks, and exercise authority over them; and began to put heavy burdens upon their backs, and drive them as they would a dumb ass. 21.3
Of course, the Nephites didn't like this at all. They asked Limhi if they could go to war with the Lamanites. Like any good leader, he said, "Okay, sure, yeah, whatever you want to do."
And it came to pass that the people began to murmur with the king because of their afflictions; and they began to be desirous to go against them to battle. And they did afflict the king sorely with their complaints; therefore he granted unto them that they should do according to their desires. 21.6
It didn't go too well.
 21:8 And it came to pass that the Lamanites did beat them, and drove them back, and slew many of them.
The battle left many widows, who cried mightily from day to day. Their cries eventually stirred up the Nephites, and made them want to fight again.
 Now there were a great many widows in the land, and they did cry mightily from day to day, for a great fear of the Lamanites had come upon them. 21.10
And it came to pass that their continual cries did stir up the remainder of the people of Limhi to anger against the Lamanites. 21.11a
They lost, again.
and they went again to battle, but they were driven back again, suffering much loss. 21.11b
Then they tried again, just for good measure.
Yea, they went again even the third time, and suffered in the like manner; and those that were not slain returned again to the city of Nephi. 21.12
The surviving Nephites submitted themselves fully to the Lamanites, and cried to God for help. He was slow to hear their cries, but he heard them. He decided to soften the hearts of the Lamanites a bit, but he didn't see fit to deliver them out of bondage.

And they did humble themselves even to the dust, subjecting themselves to the yoke of bondage, submitting themselves to be smitten, and to be driven to and fro, and burdened, according to the desires of their enemies. 21.13
And they did humble themselves even in the depths of humility; and they did cry mightily to God; yea, even all the day long did they cry unto their God that he would deliver them out of their afflictions. 21.14
And now the Lord was slow to hear their cry because of their iniquities; nevertheless the Lord did hear their cries, and began to soften the hearts of the Lamanites that they began to ease their burdens; yet the Lord did not see fit to deliver them out of bondage. 21.15
So the Nephites pulled themselves up by their bootstraps, and started prospering again.
And it came to pass that they began to prosper by degrees in the land, and began to raise grain more abundantly, and flocks, and herds, that they did not suffer with hunger. 21.16
King Limhi set guards around the city to catch the wicked priests. (Lately the priests had been stealing their grain, and Limhi was still angry about the whole virgin daughter incident.) The guards mistook Ammon and his bretheren for the priests, and they bound the group and took them to King Limhi.
And he caused that his people should watch the land round about, that by some means they might take those priests that fled into the wilderness, who had stolen the daughters of the Lamanites, and that had caused such a great destruction to come upon them. 21.20
And the king having been without the gates of the city with his guard, discovered Ammon and his brethren; and supposing them to be priests of Noah therefore he caused that they should be taken, and bound, and cast into prison. And had they been the priests of Noah he would have caused that they should be put to death. 21.23
Ammon told Limhi who he was, and about Mosiah, and how he could read plates. Limhi was especially excited about this. He had previously sent a search party to Zarahemla, but they got lost in a ghost-town and they returned with a set of ore plates that Limhi had been wanting to read for years.

But when he found that they were not, but that they were his brethren, and had come from the land of Zarahemla, he was filled with exceedingly great joy. 21.24
Now king Limhi had sent, previous to the coming of Ammon, a small number of men to search for the land of Zarahemla; but they could not find it, and they were lost in the wilderness. 21.25
Nevertheless, they did find a land which had been peopled; yea, a land which was covered with dry bones; yea, a land which had been peopled and which had been destroyed; and they, having supposed it to be the land of Zarahemla, returned to the land of Nephi, having arrived in the borders of the land not many days before the coming of Ammon. 21.26
And they brought a record with them, even a record of the people whose bones they had found; and it was engraven on plates of ore. 21.27
And now Limhi was again filled with joy in learning from the mouth of Ammon that king Mosiah had a gift from God, whereby he could interpret such engravings; yea, and Ammon also did rejoice. 21.28
He even wanted to be baptized by Ammon, but Ammon refused.
And it came to pass that king Limhi and many of his people were desirous to be baptized; but there was none in the land that had authority from God. And Ammon declined doing this thing, considering himself an unworthy servant. 21.33
So instead of baptism, they focused on how to free themselves from the Lamanites.
And now all the study of Ammon and his people, and king Limhi and his people, was to deliver themselves out of the hands of the Lamanites and from bondage. 21.36

Posted by Philip Wells at 5/22/2013 11:24:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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3 comments:
 Stephen said...
Oh, man, Philip... you always leave me hanging! Well, I did say it was good that you keep the BOM posts short.
Steve Weeks
Wed May 22, 12:31:00 PM 2013 
 Philip Wells said...
I'll be posting Chapter 22 tomorrow, so I thought I could leave it with a cliffhanger. I'm going to try to do a chapter a day from here on out. It's an exceedingly ambitious goal, but I think I'm up to it.
Wed May 22, 01:10:00 PM 2013 
 Stephen said...
Most exceedingly ambitious, yet I do believe it shall come to pass, and it will be a marvelous work and a wonder. I am sorely anticipating it!
;-)
Steve Weeks
Thu May 23, 10:11:00 AM 2013 
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 19 May 2013Oh! Susanna
Chapter 13 in the book of Daniel tells the story of Susanna. Don’t look for it in the Protestant Bible, though. They left it out for some reason. They just don’t know what they’re missing.
The story begins with a man named Joakim and his beautiful wife, Susanna.
Now there was a man that dwelt in Babylon, and his name was Joakim: And he took a wife whose name was Susanna ... a very beautiful woman, and one that feared God. Daniel 13:1-2
Joachim was a rich man with an orchard near his house.
Now Joakim was very rich, and had an orchard near his house. 13:4
A couple of old judges liked to hang out there, just to get a glimpse of Susanna.
There were two of the ancients of the people appointed judges that year … These men frequented the house of Joakim.
Susanna ... walked in her husband' s orchard … And the old men saw her ... walking: and they were inflamed with lust towards her … And they watched carefully every day to see her. 13:5-10
On one hot day, Susanna went into the orchard to take a bath. And, as usual, the old men were hiding there to watch.
It fell out, as they watched a fit day, she went ... to wash herself in the orchard: for it was hot weather. And there was nobody there, but the two old men that had hid themselves and were beholding her. 13:15-16
When the dirty old men saw Susanna, they ran to her and said, “We’re in love with you. Let’s have sex.”
The two elders arose, and ran to her, and said: Behold the doors of the orchard are shut, and nobody seeth us, and we are in love with thee: wherefore consent to us, and lie with us. 13:19-20

If she refused, they would claim to have witnessed her having sex with a young man.
But if thou wilt not, we will bear witness against thee, that a young man was with thee. 13:21
After hearing that, Susanna started screaming and both elders did likewise.
With that Susanna cried out with a loud voice: and the elders also cried out against her. 13:24
When the everyone heard the screaming, they came to see what was up. And the old men accused Susanna of having sex with a young man.
The two elders rising up in the midst of the people … said: As we walked in the orchard alone, this woman came in with two maids, and shut the doors of the orchard, and sent away the maids from her. Then a young man that was there hid came to her, and lay with her. 13:34-37
They all believed them and condemned Susanna to death.
The multitude believed them as being the elders and the judges of the people, and they condemned her to death. 13:41
But then, just at the last minute, the Lord raised up the holy spirit of a young boy, whose name was Daniel.
And when she was led to be put to death, the Lord raised up the holy spirit of a young boy, whose name was Daniel. 13:45
Daniel, with the help of the holy spirit, knew just what to do. Interrogate each of the old men separately.
Daniel said to the people: Separate these two far from one another, and I will examine them. 13:51
So that’s what he did.
Daniel asked the first old guy, under pain of being cut in two, “Under what tree did you see the Susanna and the young man conversing?”
So when they were put asunder one from the other, he called one of them, and said to him ... if thou sawest her, tell me under what tree thou sawest them conversing together. 13:52-54a
He answered, under a mastic tree.
He said. Under a mastic tree. And Daniell said: Well hast thou lied against thy own head: for behold the angel of God having received the sentence of him, shall cut thee in two. 13:54b-55
Then he asked the second old lecher the same question.
And ... he commanded that the other should come, and he said ... tell me, under what tree didst thou take them conversing together. 13:56-58a
He answered, “Under a holm tree.”
And he answered: Under a holm tree. And Daniel said to him: Well hast thou also lied against thy own head: for the angel of the Lord waiteth with a sword to cut thee in two, and to destroy you. 13:58b-59
When the people heard that, they all screamed, blessed God, and killed the two dirty old men, presumably by cutting each of them into two pieces -- just as Daniel said under the inspiration of the holy spirit.
With that all the assembly cried out with a loud voice, and they blessed God And they rose up against the two elders ... and they put them to death. 13:60-62
And Daniel, who was already great, became even greater in the sight of all the people from that day forward.
And Daniel became great in the sight of the people from that day, and thenceforward. 13:64
Posted by Steve Wells at 5/19/2013 07:01:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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6 comments:
 Stephen said...
I think I recognize one of the two lechers... the guy on the left is Mahmoud Ahmadinejad! I can see why Daniel 13 was left out... it's pretty racy, and the picture suggests Susanna may have been a little excited, or maybe her bath water was just a little too cold. ^_^
Daniel 13 has another "in the Lions' den (ITLD)" episode. Those lions were used a lot. I also enjoyed Daniel's use of actual evidence (!!) to expose the priests of Bel for eating and drinking the offerings of meat and wine. Who said there was nothing rational in the bible?
Steve, I don't remember if you included the accusers of Daniel, along with their wives and children, in DWB. It seems that since god wasn't protecting them, as he did Daniel ITLD, he was at least indirectly responsible for their deaths.
Steve Weeks

Wed May 22, 12:22:00 PM 2013 
 Stephen said...
That was Daniel 6:24... maybe others.
Steve
Wed May 22, 12:24:00 PM 2013 
 Steve Wells said...
Steve,
Yeah, the Book of Daniel gets a lot of mileage out of the lion story. Here's the note for verse 14:30 in Douay-Reims version:
Ver.30. The den of lions: Daniel was twice cast into the den of lions; one under Darius the Mede, because he had transgressed the king's edict, by praying three times a day: and another time under Evilmerodach by a sedition of the people. This time he remained six days in the lions' den; the other time only one night.
And you're right about Daniel's accusers in Daniel 6. I didn't include that story in DWB because it seemed to be the king's idea - not God's, though it's pretty clear that God approved of the killing.
Maybe I'll do a post on that and see what people think. The 2nd edition (which will include "Oh! Susanna", along with 20 other killings from the Apocrypha) will be available in a month or so. It's probably too late to include in that. But,hey, maybe in the 3rd edition...
Wed May 22, 12:56:00 PM 2013 
 Stephen said...
I have no doubt that after the Council of Magrathea, DWB will be included in the holy scriptures!
Steve Weeks
Thu May 23, 10:14:00 AM 2013 
 Robert said...
You must admit, the story exposes the fragility of our world's judicial system to those who are capable and willing to produce false witnesses?
They can take you down, or me, any time they want.
Wed May 29, 10:00:00 AM 2013 
 Tomaz V Da Silva said...
It seems Daniel in the "Oh susanna" tale used a method of Game Theory, the prisoner's dilema.
Not bad for a old tale.


Mon Mar 31, 09:08:00 AM 2014 
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 17 May 2013How many has God killed? Complete list and estimated total (Including Apocryphal killings)
Drunk With Blood Audiobook: Introduction
I kill ... I wound ... I will make my arrows drunk with blood, and mine sword shall devour flesh. -- Deuteronomy 32:39-42
The table shows two numbers: the number given by the Bible, if any, and an estimate, when no biblical number is available.
Total number killed by God in the Bible
- Using biblical numbers only: 2,821,364
 - With estimates: 25 million
(The table has been updated to include God's killings in the Apocrypha/Deuterocanonical books. I'll be adding the missing Apocryphal stories in the next few days.)
Killing Event Reference Bible's Number Estimate
1 The Flood of Noah Gen 7:23  20,000,000
2 Abraham's war to rescue Lot Gen 14:17-19  1,000
3 Sodom and Gomorrah Gen 19:24  2,000
4 Lot's wife Gen 19:26 1 1
5 While they were sore, Dinah's brethren slew all the males Gen 34:1-31, Judith 9:2-3 2 1,000
6 Er for being wicked in the sight of the Lord Gen 38:7 1 1
7 Onan for spilling his seed Gen 38:10 1 1
8 A seven year worldwide famine Gen 41:25-54  70,000
9 There will be blood: The first plague of Egypt Ex 7:15-27 , Wis 11:7-8  10,000
10 The seventh plague: hail Ex 9:25  300,000
11 Firstborn Egyptian children Ex 12:29-30  500,000
12 The Lord took off their chariot wheels Ex 14:8-26 600 5,000
13 Amalekites Ex 17:13  1,000
14 Who is on the Lord's side?: Forcing friends and family to kill each other Ex 32:27-28 3,000 3,000
15 Aaron's golden calf Ex 32:35  1,000
16 God burns Aaron's sons to death for offering "strange fire" Lev 10:1-3 2 2
17 A blasphemer is stoned to death Lev 24:10-23 1 1
18 When the people complained, God burned them to death Num 11:1  100
19 While the flesh was still between their teeth, the Lord smote them will a very great plague Num 11:33  10,000
20 Ten scouts are killed for their honest report Num 14:35-45 10 110
21 A man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day is stoned to death Num 15:32-35 1 1
22 Korah, his companions, and their families are buried alive Num 16:27 3 9
23 God burns 250 people to death for burning incense Num 16:35 250 250
24 God kills 14,700 for complaining about God's killings Num 16:49 14,700 14,700
25 The massacre of the Aradies Num 21:1-2  3,000
26 God sent serpents to bite people for complaining about the lack of food and water Num 21:6  100
27 Phineas's double murder: A killing to end God's killing Num 25:1-11 24,002 24,002
28 The Midianite massacre: Have ye saved all the women alive? Num 31:1-35 6 200,000
29 God slowly killed the Israelite army Dt 2:14-16  500,000
30 God the giant killer Dt 2:21-22  5,000
31 God hardens King Sihon's heart so all his people can be killed Dt 2:33-34 1 5,000
32 Og and all the men women, and children in 60 cities Dt 3:6 1 60,000
33 The Jericho massacre Jos 6:21  1,000
34 Achan and his family Jos 7:10-26 1 5
35 The Ai massacre Jos 8:1-25 12,000 12,000
36 God stops the sun so Joshua can get his killing done in the daylight Jos 10:10-11  5,000
37 Five kings killed and hung on trees Jos 10:26 5 10,000
38 Joshua utterly destroyed all that breathed as the Lord commanded Jos 10:28-42 7 7,000
39 The genocide of twenty cities: There was not any left to breathe Jos 11:8-12 2 20,000
40 The Anakim: some more giant killing Jos 11:20-21  5,000
41 The Lord delivered the Canaanites and Perizzites Jg 1:4 10,000 10,000
42 The Jerusalem massacre Jg 1:8  1,000
43 Five massacres, a wedding, and God-proof iron chariots Jg 1:9-25  5,000
44 The Lord delivered Chushanrishathaim Jg 3:7-10 1 1,000
45 Ehud delivers a message from God Jg 3:15-22 1 1
46 God delivers 10,000 lusty Moabites Jg 3:28-29 10,000 10,000
47 Shamgar killed 60 Philistines with an ox goad Jg 3:31 600 600
48 Barak and God massacre the Canaanites Jg 4:15-16  1,000
49 Jael pounds a tent stake through a sleeping man's skull Jg 4:18-22 1 1
50 Gideon's story: The Lord set every man's sword against his fellow Jg 7:22 120,000 120,000
51 A city is massacred and 1000 burn to death because of God's evil spirit Jg 9:23-27 1,001 2,000
52 The Ammonite massacre Jg 11:32-33  20,000
53 Jephthah's daughter Jg 11:39 1 1
54 42,000 die for failing the "shibboleth" test Jg 12:4-7 42,000 42,000
55 Samson murdered 30 men for their clothes Jg 14:19 30 30
56 Samson killed 1000 men with the jawbone of an ass Jg 15:14-15 1,000 1,000
57 Samson killed 3000 in a suicide terrorist attack Jg 16:27-30 3,000 3,000
58 A holy civil war (it had something to do with rotting concubine body part messages) Jg 20:35-37 65,100 65,100
59 The end of Judges: two genocides and 200 stolen virgins Jg 21:10-14  4,000
60 God killed Eli's sons and 34,000 Israelite soldiers 1 Sam 2:25, 4:11 34,002 34,002
61 God smote them with hemorrhoids in their secret parts 1 Sam 5:1-12  3,000
62 50,070 killed for looking into the ark of the Lord 1 Sam 6:19 50,070 50,070
63 The Lord thundered a great thunder upon the Philistines 1 Sam 7:10-11  1,000
64 Another Ammonite massacre (and another God-inspired body part message) 1 Sam 11:6-13  1,000
65 Jonathan's first slaughter 1 Sam 14:12-14 20 20
66 God forces the Philistines to kill each other 1 Sam 14:20  1,000
67 The Amalekite genocide 1 Sam  15:2-3  10,000
68 Samuel hacks Agag to death before the Lord 1 Sam 15:32-33 1 1
69 In the valley of Elah: Goliath 1 Sam 17:51, 2 Sam 21:19 1 1
70 David buys a wife with 200 Philistine foreskins 1 Sam  18:27 200 200
71 The Lord said to David, Go and smite the Philistines 1 Sam 23:2-5  10,000
72 God killed Nabal (and David got his wife and other stuff) 1 Sam 25:38 1 1
73 David commits random acts of genocide for the Philistines 1 Sam 27:8-11  60,000
74 David spends the day killing Amalekites 1 Sam 30:17  1,000
75 God kills Saul, his sons, and his soldiers (because Saul didn't kill all the Amalekites) 1 Sam 31:2, 2 Chr 10:6 4 100
76 David kills the messenger 2 Sam 1:15 1 1
77 David killed, mutilated, and hung Rechab and Baanah 2 Sam 4:12 2 2
78 God helps David smite the Philistines from the front and the rear 2 Sam 5:19-25  2,000
79 God killed Uzzah for trying to keep the ark from falling 2 Sam 6:6-7, 1 Chr 13:9-10 1 1
80 David killed two-thirds of the Moabite POWs and enslaved the rest 2 Sam 8:2  667
81 And the Lord gave David victory wherever he went 2 Sam 8 - 10 65,850 66,850
82 David killed every male in Edom 2 Sam 8:13-14, 1 Kg 11:15-16, 1 Chr 18:12, Ps 60:1 15,000 25,000
83 Thus did David do to all the children of Ammon 2 Sam 11:1, 1 Chr 20:1  1,000
84 God slowly kills a baby 2 Sam 12:14-18 1 1
85 Seven sons of Saul are hung up before the Lord 2 Sam 21:1-9 7 3,000
86 David's mighty men and their amazing killings 2 Sam 23, 1 Chr 11 1,403 3,400
87 God killed 70,000 because of David had a census that God (or Satan) told him to do 2 Sam 24:15, 1 Chr 21:14 70,000 200,000
88 Solomon murdered Job and Shimei (per David's deathbed wish) 1 Kg 2:29-46 2 2
89 A tale of two prophets 1 Kg 13:11-24 1 1
90 Jeroboam's son: God kills another child 1 Kg 14:17 1 1
91 Jeroboam's family 1 Kg 15:29  10
92 Baasha's family and friends 1 Kg 16:11-12  20
93 Zimri burns to death 1 Kg 16:18-19 1 1
94 The drought of Elijah 1 Kg 17:1, Luke 4:25, James 5:17-18  3,000
95 Elijah kills 450 religious leaders in a prayer contest 1 Kg 18:22-40 450 450
96 The first God-assisted slaughter of the Syrians 1 Kg 20:20-21  10,000
97 God killed 100,000 Syrians for calling him a god of the hills 1 Kg 20:28-29 100,000 100,000
98 God killed 27,000 Syrians by making a wall fall on them 1 Kg 20:30 27,000 27,000
99 God sent a lion to kill a man for not smiting a prophet 1 Kg 20:35-36 1 1
100 God killed Ahab for not killing a captured king 1 Kg 20:42, 22:35 1 1
101 God burned 102 men to death for asking Elijah to come down from his hill 2 Kg 1:10-12 102 102
102 God killed Ahaziah for asking the wrong God 2 Kg 1:16-17, 2 Chr 22:7-9 1 1
103 God sent bears to kill 42 boys for making fun of a prophet's bald head 2 Kg 2:23-24 42 42
104 The Lord delivered the Moabites 2 Kg 3:18-25  5,000
105 A skeptic is trampled to death 2 Kg 7:2-20 1 1
106 God's seven year famine 2 Kg 8:1  7,000
107 Jehoram of Israel 2 Kg 9:24 1 1
108 Jezebel 2 Kg 9:33-37 1 1
109 Ahab's sons: 70 heads in two baskets 2 Kg 10:6-10 70 70
110 Ahab's hometown family, friends, and priests 2 Kg 10:11  20
111 Jehu killed Ahaziah's family 2 Kg 10:12-13, 2 Chr 22:7-9 42 42
112 Jehu and his partner kill the rest of Ahab's family 2 Kg 10:17  20
113 Jehu assembled the followers of Baal and then slaughtered them all 2 Kg 10:18-25  1,000
114 Mattan the priest of Baal and Queen Athaliah 2 Kg 11:17-20 2 2
115 God sent lions to eat those who didn't fear him enough 2 Kg 17:25-26  10
116 An angel killed 185,000 sleeping soldiers 2 Kg 19:34, 37:36 185,000 185,000
117 God caused King Sennacherib to be killed by his sons 2 Kg 19:37, Tobit 1:21 1 1
118 Josiah killed all the priests of the high places 2 Kg 23:20  100
119 Just another holy war 1 Chr 5:18-22  50,000
120 God killed a half million Israelite soldiers 2 Chr 13:17-18 500,000 500,000
121 Jeroboam 2 Chr 13:20 1 1
122 God killed a million Ethiopians 2 Chr 14:9-14 1,000,000 1,000,000
123 Friendly fire: God forced "a great multitude" to kill each other 2 Chr 20:22-25  30,000
124 God made Jehoram's bowels fall out 2 Chr 21:14-19 1 1
125 God killed Jehoram's sons 2 Chr 22:1  3
126 Ahaziah of Judah 2 Chr 22:7-8 1 1
127 Joash, the princes, and army of Judah 2 Chr 24:20-25 1 10,000
128 God destroyed Amaziah 2 Chr 25:15-27 1 1,000
129 God smote Ahaz with the king of Syria 2 Chr 28:1-5 1 10,000
130 God killed 120,000 valiant men for forsaking him 2 Chr 28:6 120,000 120,000
131 The fall of Jerusalem 2 Chr 36:16-17  10,000
132 The Purim killings: God hath done these things Esther 2 - 9, 10:4 75,813 75,813
133 God and Satan kill Job's children and slaves Job 1:18-19 10 60
134 Hananiah Jer 28:15-16 1 1
135 Ezekiel's wife Ezek 24:15-18 1 1
136 Oh! Susanna Dan 13:6-62 2 2
137 Judith is blessed above all women (for cutting off a sleeping man's head) Judith 13:6-10 1 1
138 The Judith massacre: hang ye up this head upon our walls Judith 15:1-6  1,000
139 Mathathias's double murder 1 Mac 2:24-25 2 2
140 Mathathias and his friends slay the wicked sinners 1 Mac 2:44  100
141 God killed Andronicus, the sacrilegious wretch 2 Mac 4:38 1 1
142 A Jewish mob killed Lysimachus, the sacrilegious fellow 2 Mac 4:42 1 1
143 God helped Judas Machabeus destroy the wicked 1 Mac 3:1-26, 2 Mac 8:5-6 800 4,900
144 Judas and his unarmed men kill 3000 of Gorgias's soldiers 1 Mac 3:44-4:24 3,000 3,000
145 The Hanukkah killings 1 Mac 4:34-5:7 5,000 17,000
146 The Machabees brothers slaughter the heathens 1 Mac 5:21-51 11,000 37,000
147 Nicanor's army: The Almighty being their helper, they slew above nine thousand men 1 Mac 7:32-47, 2 Mac 8:24, 15:27 147,002 147,002
148 Jonathan and Simon destroy the wicked out of Israel 1 Mac  9:46-49, 2 Mac  8:30-33, 10:61 1,000 1,200
149 Five heavenly horsemen cast darts and fireballs at the enemy 2 Mac 8:32-10:38 21,103 21,400
150 God killed Antiochus with an incurable bowel disease 2 Mac 9:5-28 1 1
151 Idumeans, traitors, and Jews in two towers 2 Mac 10:16-17 40,000 40,100
152 Nicanor's head: A manifest sign of the help of God 1 Mac 7:33-48, 2 Mac  15:1-35 35,000 35,000
153 Aliens at Cades 1 Mac 11:74 3,000 3,000
154 John burns to death 2000 in the tower of Azotus 1 Mac 16:10 2,000 2,000
155 God sent wasps to slowly destroy people Wisdom 11:7-8  1,000
156 Ananias and Sapphira Acts 5:5-10 2 2
157 Herod Aggripa Acts 12:23 1 1
158 Jesus Rom 8:32, 1 Pet 1:1820 1 1
 Totals 2,821,364 24,994,828
Posted by Steve Wells at 5/17/2013 07:46:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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162 comments:
 psybermonkey said...
This is quite impressive and I cannot thank you enough for going through in continuing to modify this table.
May I make a suggestion though? When I often debate people on God's morality and use examples of unjustified murder in the bible, the ones that have the best chance at getting through to them are obviously those which are the MOST clearly unjustified - which include the killing of children and innocent people/civilians.
Such examples are bears mauling 42 children, Jephthah sacrificing his daughter, God killing King David's child to punish David, God inflicting thousands if not millions of civilians with tumors, Moses' army killing women and children, etc.
Would you be willing to make a smaller chart or color code particular killings on this one which show God's most clearly unjust killings - which apologists should have the hardest time finding excuses for? It would be a big time saver for people like me looking for the best examples to depict his barbaric character.

Thanks!
Sun Apr 11, 01:07:00 PM 2010 
 skanksta said...
Great stuff Steve - you've created a wonderful resource for logic.
Now your task is documenting the animal death and suffering caused by this monster. Or are you gonna do the Koran next ?
Come on - work to do - no rest for the wicked....!
Mon Apr 12, 04:08:00 AM 2010 
 Brucker said...
Steve, I don't recall, but have I ever told you that among many evangelicals, the belief is that the population of the world at the time of Noah was in the billions? This is usually figured due to the idea that the extremely long ages of the antedeluvian forefathers should indicate extreme health, including excellent fertility. Imagine a world where people have lifespans averaging somewhere around 700 years, and they're mutliplying like rabbits. In short, your estimate for the flood may be way too small for literalists.
skanksta, as I'm certain I've said before, the work of estimating animal deaths is essentially insurmountable. You've got to consider the enormity and complexity of the Israelite sacrificial system, and realize there's just no way to figure it out. It's easily in the billions if not trillions. (Not to mention trying to estimate animals killed in the flood; see above.)
Mon Apr 12, 08:55:00 AM 2010 
 Steve Wells said...
psybermonkey, thanks for the suggestion. I'm working on it. I hope to have a post with God's killings ranked with a five star scale of nastiness later today.
skanksta, I'd like to make a list of God's animal killings and I may do that someday. But it's going to be kind of boring. All the sheep, and goat, and bull slaughters! Still, it would be an impressive list.
Of course, I'd also like to get to the Quran and Book of Mormon. I feel kind of guilty about neglecting them.
Brucker, I'd never heard that before. The human population at the time of the flood was in the billions? Do you have a link where that idea is expressed? I'd like to add a note about it on the flood post.
Mon Apr 12, 09:12:00 AM 2010 
 Brucker said...
This guy gives some discussion, but on a quick scan, I can't figure out his conclusion:
http://ldolphin.org/popul.html
Mon Apr 12, 10:05:00 AM 2010 
 Steve Wells said...
That is too funny! So God drowned 9 billion people in the flood? (And the author says he's being conservative.)
I guess I should revise my numbers.
Mon Apr 12, 10:19:00 AM 2010 
 Matthew Blanchette said...
There's no way in hell that nine million people were alive at the time these half-crazed theologians spectulate... mostly because at no point in history, until now, has the population of Earth ever exceeded a billion.
Wanna know what actually caused so many people on Earth, today? Centuries of inbreeding. That's right, the Hapsburgs had it right; however, it was not through brother-sister relationships, but more of distant-cousin-in-the-same-village/tribe/township relationships, that humanity "divided and prospered".
Archeological facts don't fit with the sacred texts of these hare-brained schemers, however, so they have to rejigger the facts to their satisfaction... oftentimes, with the blatantly amusing results documented above.
Mon Apr 12, 11:43:00 PM 2010 
 teavee said...
Voted at Flood post. Seems to work.
Tue Apr 13, 12:33:00 AM 2010 
 Andrew said...
> And the author says he's being conservative
or "Conservative"
Thu Apr 15, 07:01:00 AM 2010 
 The Boy Who Couldn't Fly said...
Incredible. Thanks so much for supplying such a massive amount of ammo. Although I'm long past trying to "win" an argument with a true believer, I can't help imgining that this list would shake the foundational beliefs of the best (worst) of them.
Them: "God loves us!"
Us: "What about (hyperlink to site)?"
Them: "They weren't US!"
Thu Apr 15, 10:41:00 AM 2010 
 damian said...
Not only did you leave a good moral deal breaker for Christianity, but you dealt another blow by pointing out the iron Chariots. So much for omnipotence. If Satan just learns to drive a tank, then it looks like the Cristian myth will be a ton brighter.
Wed May 05, 09:40:00 PM 2010 
 Robert said...
Steve, The Book of Mormon (though fraudulent, probably like 99 percent of the bible)is full of battles and killing - my partner is a Jack-Mormon. The Koran too is just riddled with devouring flesh eating the swords.
Wed May 12, 08:51:00 AM 2010 
 Lewis said...
I just found your site today--FABULOUS! As an Atheist working in an ofc of "believers," I am sick and tired of having their hogwash shoved in my face. I've known for a very long time that the Bible is 99% hateful, racist BS. Now, thanks to your AMAZING efforts, I can pinpoint specific examples of it. THANK YOU!!! Please keep up the GREAT work!
Sun Aug 22, 12:07:00 PM 2010 
 Robert said...
Stunning animals before slaughter is permitted in Islam, not in kosher slaughter.
Mohammed condemned cruelty to animals.
Animals are not supposed to see other animals of the same species slaughtered.
These rules are not always obeyed.
Thu Aug 26, 12:03:00 AM 2010 
 agema-makedonin said...
Yahweh is a God of war as it is clearly stated in Exodus 15:3.
But his concept in the bible shows clear patter of evolution:
http://www.godweb.org/fosdickguide.htm
Sun Sep 05, 02:10:00 AM 2010 
 Bill Hartley said...
Just a quick post from an Evangelical.
Interesting stats. I'm going to use them during a teaching time at our church tomorrow. I'll be interested to see how believers synthesize these truths.
I'm not quite sure why you take the time to work through statistics concerning a God you don't believe, and from a source you do not give credence to, the Bible.
For those who might believe it, Genesis 6 shares these words from God in light of his creation of man: "The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that EVERY inclination of the thoughts of his heart was ONLY evil ALL the time (emphasis mine). The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. So the LORD said, 'I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth — men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air — for I am grieved that I have made them.'" ... Now the earth was corrupt in God's sight and was full of violence. God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. So God said 'I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth.'"
I share this in light of common secular research that claims that over 100 billion people have lived on earth. That would mean God has specifically killed .0024% of the population (though I would say that 100% of our race dies under the sovereign hand of God). To me, this stokes my understanding of God as graceful, given his anger, disappointment and pain with the human race.
I hope that you also give some thought to the main theme of the Biblical story - about a God who creates a rebellious world, and goes to great lengths to save it, not leave it to its own self-destruction. We are all on death row, unless someone intervenes. I believe God has done so.
All the best,
Bill, Mesa AZ
Sat Sep 11, 01:33:00 PM 2010 
 Daz said...
"a God who creates a rebellious world, and goes to great lengths to save it, not leave it to its own self-destruction"
Assuming you ever come back to check for replies...
See, this is the bit that some of us have trouble with, when you folks start trying to use this as a guide to morality. He created the rebellious world, knowing it would be rebellious, tried to save it from destruction (by who? they had stone-age nukes?), then destroyed it himself, killing, one would assume, a large number of sinless children and unborn babies.
If you can't see the irony in this, and the idiocy of using it as a model to teach moral behaviour, you are truly lost.
Tue Sep 14, 01:43:00 AM 2010 
 creaturagirl said...
bill, your last paragraph sums it all up very well for me; which is to say that none of what you said made any sense whatsoever to me. also, asking the question why a non believer would go to the lengths to put up this information doesn't compute. it makes perfect sense to me. it is to show the absolute hypocrisy in "religious" texts. theologians study these texts but that doesn't mean they take them as facts.
lots of religious people, or devout people do wonderful things in small communities. i really think that is wonderful. however, i don't have to put up any proof here to back up what i am about to say: more violent acts are done in the name of religion than in the name of any other thing. and that goes for ALL religions, especially christianity.
put that in your pipe and smoke it....
Wed Sep 15, 10:44:00 AM 2010 
 Maeryn said...
@ Bill Hartley
Regardless of anything these other commentators say, they still are not disproving the existence of God.
I found this chart mildly amusing. and rather enjoyed it. Really puts in a new kick in regards to fearing our Lord.
One problem I noticed, is that this chart does not take into consideration the fact that God ends all of our lives. Taking us Home or letting us wander for eternity is His choice alone.
Cheers.
Wed Sep 15, 11:43:00 AM 2010 
 Sebby said...
@Maeryn
The existence of God does not need to be disproved. I would suggest you read up on a concept called 'burden of proof'.
Even then, evolution and the big bang provide a way to scientifically and empirically explain the creation and development of the universe.
Humanity no longer needs to invoke God as the supreme creator as we did in the days before science.
All this chart shows is that were God to exist (an assumption for which there is no proof, no need and little basis), he is a cruel, temperamental and vindictive character who is hardly worthy of our worship.

Peace
Sat Sep 18, 11:14:00 PM 2010 
 edwin (aka theven or stein) said...
wow this is great!
Mon Oct 25, 11:15:00 PM 2010 
 Harri said...
As far as I understand, God has killed every single individual (animals too) that has ever lived.
Sun Nov 14, 05:32:00 AM 2010 
 Annette Gallagher said...
Not arguing with your estimates, but how did you arrive at these numbers? I was raised a Baptist preacher's daughter, and I PROMISE that is the first question anyone in my family would ask.... and they'll probably deride the answer as "the work of Satan" anyway, but I'd like to have one! Interesting table - thanks for the info!
Sun Nov 14, 07:08:00 AM 2010 
 Steve Wells said...
Annette,
As you probably noticed, there are two set of numbers: one that I call the "Biblical number" and the other that is an "estimate". The Biblical number includes only those numbers that are given in the Bible, leaving out things like the victims in Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, etc. The estimate column includes estimates for these killings (20 million flood victims, 2000 inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah, etc.).
Sun Nov 14, 08:17:00 AM 2010 
 Lojiko said...
Roughly equivalent to Stalin.
Sun Nov 14, 09:12:00 AM 2010 
 Robken said...
OK I have been reading your comments and most are intelligently based. Though, I would like to throw out another hypothesis (the bible being one of course). Our universe is about 13 billion years old and if the big bang occurred one second later we wouldn't exist as we are today on planet Earth. To have a bang there must be space, the space that was there at the time of the big bang became empty because of the massive reduction of matter and anti matter. Therefore, there have been uncountable numbers of big bangs and each creating its own universe. Now come the interesting part: because of evolution we are what we are today which has only taken less than a million years which is a blink to fast to see; so, let's apply that evolutionary process to the energy our minds create which is neither matter or anti-matter, now multiply that process of creating energy (call it what you wish, soul, etc)a trillion, trillion, trillion, times and think, just think, and contemplate this as a possible result, that there is a dynamic force in the universe that is totally at war with itself because of the ying and yang theory and positive and negative, etc. So, when we die what may exist is the energy we leave behind which becomes part of the Universal collective. We have no idea whatsoever of the force, that through the universal evolutionary process, has harnessed and has become an intelligence we can't even begin to imagine. Another interesting thought is that there may be parallel Universes that were formed because of the splitting during the big bang of other universes that didn't coalesce. Or, during the contraction process of the Universe it split into two or more contraction entities and they each create their own universe.
Sun Nov 14, 12:58:00 PM 2010 
 Eric Michalak said...
By making this list the author and those commenting seem to acknowledge that God exists, which is a step in the right direction. In light of that, I would like to point out a little fact. While God does take some lives without apparent reason or a reason that you may not deem reason enough, you forget that God is also the creator of all life and He is at worst ending something He began. In short, God takes life, but he also created all life.
One final point. None of us here on earth are omniscient, and it is unwise in our uninformed state to question the actions of a being who is all knowing.
I hope this gets some people thinking in a productive manner.
Mon Dec 06, 07:05:00 PM 2010 
 Dee said...
Ezekiel 18:30 and following:
"Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, declares the Lord God. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, LEST INIQUITY BE YOUR RUIN. Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! WHY WILL YOU DIE, O house of Israel? For I HAVE NO PLEASURE IN THE DEATH OF ANYONE, declares the Lord God; so turn, and live."
Ephesians 4:14 and following:
For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and earth is named... so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith - that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may have the strength to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God."
There are many things I don't understand about God. But I have experienced His love, and I cannot argue with it any longer. He says His ways are higher than our ways. How can we expect to figure out the Creator of the universe? We can't even figure out what He created (see Job 38-41).
I have nothing to prove. God can stick up for Himself. When He shows up for you, you'll know what I mean. I pray it's soon.
Tue Dec 07, 12:13:00 AM 2010 
 Luis said...
''He says His ways are higher than our ways.''
He would, but apparently they aren't (check out the kill board. Did you actually look at it, or did over 20 million murders just skip your mind, expunged from relevance by the killer's soothing words that all is well?), unless by ''higher'', you mean 'acting like a bloodthirsty human', in which case I eminently agree with you.
God is the lowest of the low. Fuck him. But by all means, if you want to wait for him, then fill your boots.
Tue Dec 21, 05:33:00 AM 2010 
 Luis said...
''By making this list the author and those commenting seem to acknowledge that God exists, which is a step in the right direction.''
<--- retarded comment. The author does NOT acknowledge God's existence. He merely tallied the murders that God is PURPORTED to have carried out acording to the events depicted in the Bible, and which Christians who believe in God on the basis of the Bible are obligated to defend. Your comment was as stupid as saying that the author of an article tallying the body count of John McLane believes that Die Hard is a documentary.
Weasel, disingenuous comment.
Tue Dec 21, 05:40:00 AM 2010 
 Princess D. said...
And that's just biblical quotes. Just look at how much war and genocide has been committed in the name of G-d. To name a few: The inquisition nearly decimated the entire female population of Europe. The crusades killed G-d followers on both sides. The English reformation killed Catholics because they didn't worship G-d the right, protestant way. The KKK believed they were following G-d's orders by slaughtering blacks. And pretty much every monarchical leader felt their every act was ordained by G-d, including war and executions. And that's just the surface.
Mon Jan 03, 03:49:00 PM 2011 
 Dee said...
What of the human person Jesus of Nazareth. Any record of him killing anyone? Not that I recall. I rather remember him doing the opposite - healing everyone who came to him and raising more than one person from the dead. Perhaps one should try to make a chart of all the healings Jesus did in his time on earth. Not to mention his giving up his own life to provide life for others. Could it be that this more clearly demonstrates the character of God? I don't think you will find God commanding to kill anywhere in the New Testament. Therefore I don't believe any of the post-biblical "God-willed" massacres as mentioned by Princess D were truly the will of God but rather a result of the corruption of human power.
Mon Jan 03, 10:42:00 PM 2011 
 Luis said...
''Therefore I don't believe any of the post-biblical "God-willed" massacres as mentioned by Princess D were truly the will of God but rather a result of the corruption of human power. ''
1) By that rationale, why can't the good that Jesus is purported to have carried out also be the result of 'human power'? Why just filter out the bad stuff and leave in the good? Why not be consistent?
2) The OT says things, and the NT says things. What's your basis for choosing what's 'really' the 'result of the corruption of human power' and what's genuinely God ordained? It sounds an awful lot like your criteria is simply 'whatever Dee likes and doesn't like'.
In other words (for the serious people), it's ALL human made, the good and the bad. The labels - 'human corruption' or 'God's goodness' - are slapped on according to the convenience of the believer. It's odd that people can't seem to fathom the simple notion that humans can be responsible for both; so anxious to believe that if something is good, it comes from God, but if it's bad, it comes from them. Y'all need to start using your book-smarts to exercise your critical faculties rather than just your limbic systems.
Tue Jan 04, 08:20:00 AM 2011 
 larry said...
The Bible is the mythical history & culture of the Hebrews & the Tribes of Israel. The murderous spirit that is shown in the Bible, is shown in Israel today.
The "John Boy Walton" beliefs of Evangelical Christians ignores the Blood & Gore that streams through the Bible & they pretend that this is the work of a Holy God. If one could print photos of human carnage along side the parts of the Bible that depicts bloody carnage, then these hypocrites would have a hard time explaining.
Wed Jan 05, 11:27:00 PM 2011 
 sim1kinu said...
God sent two bears to rip apart boys for making fun of a prophet's bald head: -42peoples
Being burned to death for burning incense: -250peoples
God stops the sun so Joshua can kill in the daylight: -
5000peoples
Some God-proof iron chariots: another -5000peoples
Knowing that there are idiots that will believe this shit and will have meaningless lives because they worship it: priceless
There are some things you shouldn't believe because they are utterly ridiculous. For everything else, there's MASTERGOD!
Thu Jan 06, 07:09:00 PM 2011 
 Jersey Boy said...
can you post the people satan killed in the bible because i would find it hilarious to point out the difference . although neither are real i think it would make a christian turn blue in the face
Thu Jan 20, 12:52:00 PM 2011 
 Wikkid said...
In the "God's Killings in Genesis" list, the number for Noah's Flood is 30 million while in this list it is 20 million.
Other estimates I have seen have guessed it was 3 million.
Mon Jan 24, 02:22:00 AM 2011 
 Steve Wells said...
Thanks, wikkid. I've changed the Genesis list to 20 million. I used McEvedy and Johes' Atlas of World Population History for the estimate (which is the most conservative estimate that I've seen from a serious historian). There certainly would have been more than 3 million people living in 2400 BCE.
Mon Jan 24, 08:24:00 AM 2011 
 GLaDOS said...
Who said God loves us?
Fri Jan 28, 02:31:00 PM 2011 
 Dee said...
Jesus did. And not just with words.
To answer the comment about why don't we believe that the good things happen by human power... Humans are very capable of taking life, killing each other, and destroying things. Not to say that God doesn't do that ever. But when it comes to instantaneously healing people from long-suffering diseases and raising people from the dead - after 4 days, I find it hard to write that off as "human power".
Sun Jan 30, 01:55:00 PM 2011 
 P said...
Me neither I would attribute it to "human imagination".
Btw the whole giving up his live thing? He knew he would come back, he knew he would spend eternity in heaven and he died quite quick compared to some humans who died on the cross. Oh and he died to enable god to save us from god and with the whole trinity thing that is similar to saying that a hostage-taker who killed a few hostages saved the surviving hostages because he surrendered to the police instead of killing them as well.
(It shouldn't be necessary to say this but sadly some christians are quick to claim that someone just admitted that he believes in god: I talk like jesus really sacrificed himself and came back from the death and as if heaven existed. That doesn't mean I believe it, it's just inconvenient to write things like "If the story described in the NT were true, then". Or do you add such disclaimers when you talk about Harry Potter oder Darth Vader?)
Wed Feb 09, 09:26:00 AM 2011 
 Anton said...
Pop Quiz...
If there are six billion people on earth at the beginning of the Apocalyse, how many people will be left after the angel casts Satan into the pit and bound him for a thousand years?
How many kill offs are there in Revelation?
Fri Mar 18, 08:14:00 PM 2011 
 Jens said...
God always gets his man eventually, even if he has to roast the earth with the sun to do it. I'm not sure if this has resulted in attempts to get off earth (going to the heavens ?).
Thu Apr 07, 01:16:00 PM 2011 
 Jens said...
God always gets his man in the end, even if he has to roast the earth, dissolve it, flood it, rock it to and fro, turn it upside down or bring hell up from the bowls of the earth. This may have lead to attempts to get off the earth (shooting for heaven ?). ;-)
Thu Apr 07, 02:05:00 PM 2011 
 John said...
If you want to scare people into being obedient slaves you need a mean son of a bitch god to threaten them with.
When I started read the bible as a child I immediately realized what a crock of shit is was just because the god was such a bastard. If god's is really like that then fuck him.
Mon Apr 11, 11:31:00 AM 2011 
 Ahmad said...
The bible has been corrupted. That is obvious. Do not attribute strange things that is in the bible to God. You need to step back and ask yoursleves is He who created your eyes and everything wonderful you see capable of injustice. It is impossible that God would do anything evil. I challenge you to reflect and have a conversation with God and ask Him to guide you. You should read the Quran and open your mind
Mon Apr 11, 11:42:00 AM 2011 
 cuthulan said...
A great article and a lot of good work.I have done some work on this subject myself and you might like some of my posts too.
Abrahamic monotheism is just original fascism.
Its a DEATH CULT that has spread ignorance disease and excused genocide ,theft and book burning!
Its symbols are the star(jewish)the moon(islam) which are symbols of the night, and the cross(christian) which is a death and torture device!
Judaism was originally invented by Cyrus the Great! Its Egyptian SET worship converted to zoroastrianism!
Read more; http://cuthulan.wordpress.com/2009/09/02/the-invention-of-judaism/
christianity was invented by Emperor Constintine ,he was trying to unite his west and east Roman empires.It was Druidic/Egyptian/Eastern sun worship.His book was the New Testamonies his city Constantinople. The BI-BLE(2 books)and "messianic judaism",was a later Byzantine invention
http://cuthulan.wordpress.com/2009/09/02/the-invention-of-christianity/
Islam was Quyrsh moon worship converted to messianic judaism by "heretic" monks that lost a constantinople power struggle.
http://cuthulan.wordpress.com/2009/09/02/the-invention-of-islam/
Mon Apr 11, 11:51:00 AM 2011 
 paul said...
To a earlier comment, I believe the Koran has the same GOd... so in effect god would be killing even more people....
Mon Apr 11, 01:42:00 PM 2011 
 wgabler said...
Nice, I was looking for something that would give me the list of the people in quotes in the verse below. 25 million more to be given life in the 1,000 year reign. God is probably quite proud of you at the moment. lol
Re:20:4:
And I saw thrones,
and they sat upon them,
and judgment was given unto them:
and I saw "the souls of them that were beheaded" for the witness of Jesus,
"and for the word of God, "
and which had not worshipped
the beast,
neither his image,
neither had received his mark upon their foreheads,
or in their hands;
and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
lol
Mon Apr 11, 01:54:00 PM 2011 
 allat said...
You forgot the Book of Esther, where Haman is hung on a gallow, and all his sons are killed and his family sold as slaves.
And further, where all the Persians = in the thousands -that plotted against the jews were killed by the jews.
Revenge by any other name!
THAT'S what the jews celebrate so gleefully today! Mass slaughtering in revenge!
NOT forgiveness or anything that that!
Mon Apr 11, 04:00:00 PM 2011 
 SurferJoe said...
and that is only one god you are talking about...how about the other gods? were they as nice? just wondering, i dont really care, but does anyone know?
Tue Apr 12, 04:51:00 AM 2011 
 Egoigwe said...
Nice... but a distinction is important here. The Old testament is essential Hebrew history. The god to which all this is attributable is the god of the Jews (or Lucifer, as he is fondly called by Zionists) and perhaps through this we see the origins of the blood lust that is Israel's campaign today in Palestine.
This belief in a god of vengeance and war underlines Zionist attitudes and that diminishing respect for human life.
The God of the Christians is a loving God. A God, which according to narratives, so loved us (sinners) that He gave His only Begotten son that we may live... and which His son urged that we should turn the other cheek.
We are all God's children, like it, know it or not. Clearly, there is a distinction between the god of the Jews and the God that Jesus spoke to us about. You have defined a killer god not a loving God.
Tue Apr 12, 01:58:00 PM 2011 
 stefan said...
I think as human beings, we are curious and need to believe in some kind of god, i dont but thats me, i kind of wish i did, would make life a lot easier and death a lot less scary, but come on i think we all know deep down , there is no such thing as god....it is a scary thought at first, but once you begin to understand the universe and our place in it, it becomes fascinating, and if anything religion becomes very dull. i find peace in the fact that when i die i will become eventually part of a new star, gosh even a different life form.
it's science all the way for me, it makes sense, and is a credit to us
Fri Apr 15, 03:29:00 AM 2011 
 ben.scheri said...
You forgot the book or revelation where 2/3 of the worlds population will be killed which is ordained by god, including the gog/magog wars where the blood will reach up to the bridles. Talk about violent exclusivism. and then we're supposed to believe that not only does "god" kill people, but then he tortures them for eternity. To borrow the saying from the great christopher hitchens- "no thinking person can believe this"
Thu Apr 21, 10:34:00 AM 2011 
 Mike Haubrich, FCD said...
"We are all God's children, like it, know it or not. Clearly, there is a distinction between the god of the Jews and the God that Jesus spoke to us about. You have defined a killer god not a loving God. "
What are you talking about? Nowhere in the Nice Testament does anyone say that this is about a different God. And the God of the Nice Testament is not so nice, either. He just made a new rule, and people who don't follow that rule go to Hell.
Wed Apr 27, 06:28:00 AM 2011 
 Torbjörn Larsson, OM said...
@ Robken: OK I have been reading your comment and it is difficult to view it as intelligently based.
- What is your point in this context (of a murderous insane god)?
- Your ideas doesn't portray standard cosmology or evolution.
* The universe is ~ 14 Gy.
* The inflationary cosmology doesn't depend on a big bang moment but gives an initial condition (inflation) to the big bang cosmology (expansion). In any case it doesn't make sense to say "later" relative spacetime if spacetime isn't there. Nor would it affect the later process.
* Spacetime as regards inflation and pre-inflation is iffy. There was semiclassical worldlines, but if there was spacetime is uncertain. In any case spacetime is constituted latest after the end of inflation.
* Recombination after reheating didn't empty spacetime but converted particles to radiation. Any energy density decrease was due to big bang expansion.
* End of inflation makes multiverses in _some_ theories, but not by splitting but different destinies for different worldlines.
* Evolution on Earth has taken all extant species to today in ~ 4 Gy.
* Biological evolution applies only to biological systems of course.
- And dualism is plain nuts when it isn't observed, which brings us back to the murderous myth described in the post.
Wed Apr 27, 09:56:00 AM 2011 
 Dee said...
first of all, @ Egoigwe: same God in the Old and New Testaments. That's important. The Old Testament God is not Lucifer - that is another name for the devil brought out of the King James Version translation of Isaiah 14.
I don't claim to understand why God does the things He does, but i don't believe I have to. There are a few things I have come to understand about Him though:
1. He has always promised to be found by those who seek Him (ex. Jeremiah 29:11-14 and Matthew 7:7-11 are examples)
2. He will never destroy without warning, as seen throughout all the prophets and Revelation. He will first warn and call out for the evil to stop.
3. When His message is responded to and the people return to justice and worship God, He relents or provides a way of escape. (Old Testament examples include Josiah, the city of Nineveh, Hezekiah, Lot, and even the evil King Ahab of Israel). As the Old Testament is a story of the Hebrew people, we see few examples of how God rescued people from other nations from His destruction. (There are some key ones: Rahab, Ruth, Tamar.)
God's message to the people of Judah through Ezekiel: "As I live, declares the Lord, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, TURN BACK from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?" (Ez 33:11)
@ Anton: there's a lot of mystery about what will happen at the end. I expect it could be very terrible. I will want to be on the right side because God will provide strength to those who trust in Him and will bring us to a glorious end.
All humans stand hopeless before the Almighty, All-Holy God. We all deserve to be consumed by the fire of His wrath for any less-than-perfect thing we have done. Problem is, He doesn't actually want anyone to die, so He does all He can to save us short of taking away our free will. Scripture indicates that everything/anyone who rebels against their Creator by refusing to worship Him will meet a fiery end - that is a matter of choice for us. I challenge you to try and get to know Him though - you'll be surprised by His mercy and grace. I mean, how is it that a nation about to be destroyed calls out to God after pages and pages of oracles about His coming wrath and asks for compassion based on His character (Jeremiah 21:2)? Somehow, the God they knew had a reputation of great love and compassion amidst all the destruction.
Sun May 01, 02:54:00 PM 2011 
 Stephen said...
Dee said...
I challenge you to try and get to know Him though - you'll be surprised by His mercy and grace.
Sun May 01, 02:54:00 PM 2011
Oh, my sweet beejeebers... I almost couldn't breathe for a good couple minutes after reading this. Thanks for the belly laugh!
Steve Weeks
Sat May 14, 12:44:00 PM 2011 
 kathy said...
You do not know who you are talking about. He is the High and Holy one that inhabits eternity...he is the Sovereign One, the Great One, Our Wonderful, Counselor, The Way the Truth and the Life...no man comes to the Father but through Jesus....and because you do not know him, your infinite mind cannot grasp the truth. God does not need to answer to you or anyone else. He established his will before the foundations of the world and infinite man cannot go up against a finite God who is majestic in all his ways. Wow do I love him for not thinking or behaving like man...thank you Lord for being IN control. He is the only one to whom we can trust our lives. Our God is a Consuming Fire....
Thu May 19, 07:57:00 AM 2011 
 Dest_Truth said...
Dee said...
What of the human person Jesus of Nazareth. Any record of him killing anyone? Not that I recall.
Dee, I recommend you read the book of Thomas the Saint. The book of Thomas was removed from the published bible in order to keep the myth of a perfect Jesus intact. In the book of Thomas it states clearly that Jesus, while exceptionally smart and gifted with crazy powers, was just like any other child... mean spirited, arrogant and completely out of control at more than one point. And yes, he did strike a few people down.
Mon Jun 06, 09:11:00 AM 2011 
 Megaphon said...
Religion of peace strikes again!
Sun Jun 12, 03:36:00 PM 2011 
 WhatifI said...
our life our death r in hand of God. so everyone being born and died is just returning to him! we all r 1 being!
Fri Jun 24, 07:27:00 AM 2011 
 Chankey Pathak said...
Nice efforts man! Made a great list. Good work, keep it up!
Fri Jun 24, 07:34:00 AM 2011 
 wynd.and.fury said...
For an argument to be effective, it needs to be in terms that the listener can relate to. Seeing that a lot of the arguments for God are in terms relative to faith rather than facts or just common sense is rather embarrassing. So here's my food for thought:
1) All historical accounts should be taken with a grain of salt, holy book or not. Seeing as the Bible is not absolute - since it was written BY humans and EDITED by humans - it certainly makes little sense to take everything absolutely literally. If anything, it is a guide, a reference, just like any other historical document. The difference is the message and original intent of the piece, the aspect that makes it "God-inspired," that is what makes it holy, not the literal words. All that being said, the numbers being presented seem to line up with the Bible's take on history. Way to do your homework Steve.
2) My only argument that seems to be consistent in the proof of God's existence is the Earth itself. I'm okay with the Big Bang Theory, the Evolutionary Theory, or even String Theory. Why? Because these are not laws of nature or facts; these are ideas for how the world works, and for the most part they do a decent job of explaining many a process. The only issue I have is that they do not explain how any of these processes started and do not effectively convey why our planet has managed to exist without being in total chaos from the start. Case in point: If I were to walk up to any structure - Eiffel Tower, Sistine Chapel, Statue of Liberty - it would be preposterous for me to say that, because I did not see its creation, it appeared here randomly or of its own volition. Nothing in life has demonstrated that things occur consistently or just "come together" by sheer odds or extended periods of time. If I leave a pile of concrete blocks, steel beams and some bolts all on top of a concrete slab for a thousand years, time will not just lead to the creation of a building. The pieces will simply stay right where they are, or wither away.
Everything in nature has a source for its existence and we can nearly always prove how. The only thing we cannot prove with science is that which we cannot reproduce ourselves. We can provide evidence in the forms of theories, but without witnessing the phenomena ourselves, we will be unable to conclude it as fact. Fortunately, with our level of intelligence, we are capable of achieving so much simply on theories (I'm looking at you quantum mechanics).
Please respond full force, I love debates haha
Fri Jun 24, 08:48:00 AM 2011 
 teresa said...
Dear God, please provideth a dictionary for kathy so that she may look up the difference between infinite and finite. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
PS- make her less crazy.
Fri Jun 24, 09:11:00 AM 2011 
 paulie09 said...
The Bible yet speaks about a time of coming judgement. You have a choice now to heed or ignore.
If you ignore - how could you possibly blame God for executing the judgement He has clearly warned you about?
Wed Jun 29, 04:34:00 AM 2011 
 Seymour13 said...
@Paulie09
"The Bible yet speaks about a time of coming judgement. You have a choice now to heed or ignore."
That's like a mobster holding a shotgun to your kneecap and giving you the "choice" to either pay protection money (in this case; unwarrented faith) or get your leg blown off (judgement).
Difference is, I actually have reasonable grounds for assuming the mobster is real, as opposed to a supposedly unobservable "god".
1- One can't distinguish between the unobservable and the non-existant.
2- Extra-ordinary claims require extra-ordinary evidence.
3- What can be assumed without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.
"If you ignore - how could you possibly blame God for executing the judgement He has clearly warned you about?"
What an utterly vile and disgusting thing to say.
You are the textbook example of someone who's morals have been utterly corrupted by his religion.
Your mother would be so proud...
Sat Jul 16, 04:42:00 PM 2011 
 YS said...
i suppose people will just rip me up for writing this but...
ok I don't condone killing. murder is a sin. that is very clear in the Bible.
But yes also God has killed according to the Bible. Directly, indirectly. the numbers don't really matter i think.
However, a reason why Christians still proclaim our God is good despite this is because God is not a man. He is the Creator of men. As the Creator, he has the right to destroy.
A common rebuttal to that statement is that many he killed were innocent. You are forgetting then that according to the Bible, no one is innocent. Through the original sin of Adam and Eve, not a single one of us is clean. And it is only through grace and mercy that we live at all. And through greater grace and mercy that we are allowed salvation.
I know what I said wont convince most people. But I feel like those are points that are not commonly said. It's impossible to logic your way into the Christian faith, even when logic points to the faith. It says so in the Bible itself. But at least I can show some of the reasoning.
Sun Jul 24, 06:00:00 PM 2011 
 Seymour13 said...
-"ok I don't condone killing. murder is a sin. that is very clear in the Bible."-
So we agree on that.
-"But yes also God has killed according to the Bible. Directly, indirectly. the numbers don't really matter i think."-
Again, agreed.
A single life taken absent cause is already too much.
-"However, a reason why Christians still proclaim our God is good despite this is because God is not a man. He is the Creator of men. As the Creator, he has the right to destroy."-
Any being that calls itself our god is subject to atleast the same standards of critique as we are, if not MUCH higher standards.
To excuse or even condone incompetence and cruelty (especially from a god) is something I will not do.
Besides, only a sick individual (probably glutton for punishment/masochist aswell) would think of or even accept something like "As the Creator, he has the right to destroy".
Generally this line of thought reveals a state of mind corrupted by religion, I'd call it a classic case of stockholm syndrome, except ofcourse that this supposed angry god is just imaginary.
Mon Jul 25, 10:01:00 AM 2011 
 Seymour13 said...
-"A common rebuttal to that statement is that many he killed were innocent. You are forgetting then that according to the Bible, no one is innocent."-
Now that is one of my main problems with biblical scripture (and one of the main reasons why it is a corrupting force in this world), it teaches you you're "dirty", "you're sinful and you deserve WHATEVER you get" all for being how GOD MADE YOU, and instead of dealing with his own incompetence he takes it out on YOU and ME.
(I'll just assume that you're putting these points up for argument's sake, and don't actually believe this yourself.
Because if you do actually believe any of this you've automatically disqualified yourself from any intelligent discussion or debate.)
-"Through the original sin of Adam and Eve, not a single one of us is clean."-
Adam and eve got punished for god's incompetence, he put the fucking tree there knowing beforehand they were gonna eat from it (omniscient), ergo; he shouldn't have put the fucking tree there.
Besides, it's not much of a choice for adam and eve since the very framework they needed to actually REALIZE eating the apple is bad (instead of just hearing the word "bad" but not understanding the implications).
To make any kind of judgement call regarding eating the apple they would have needed knowledge of good and evil beforehand, so they could actually UNDERSTAND that eating the apple was bad, and WHY.
They didn't, so they didn't really know that eating the apple and going against god's wishes was "bad", and thus were so easily influenced by the talking snake.
But let's leave that aside for the moment, what's even worse about this is that the very concept of original sin is that WE'RE actually paying for the wrongdoings of long gone and non-existant ancestors.
Adam and Eve supposedly ate the apple, not us, yet god supposedly lets us suffer and even adds to that suffering instead of just *poof*-ing sin away, completely.
Because, after all, WE weren't the ones that ate from the apple.
Mon Jul 25, 10:03:00 AM 2011 
 Seymour13 said...
-"And it is only through grace and mercy that we live at all. And through greater grace and mercy that we are allowed salvation."-
Don't even get me started on the biblican loophole concerning sin (jesus sacrifice), that may actually be the most immoral part in the entire bible (redemption through proxy, and making one person pay for another's sins).
The whole mob-boss analogy (while very accurate) is just icing on the cake in this case.
-"I know what I said wont convince most people. But I feel like those are points that are not commonly said."-
Not anymore, no.
Because MOST people (even the religious) realize exactly how big a pile of bullshit those "points" are.
And everyone seriously using them basically disqualify themselves from any kind of (intelligent) discussion or debate (as I said before) in addition to revealing themselves as morally inferior.
-"It's impossible to logic your way into the Christian faith, even when logic points to the faith."-
Logic actually points AWAY from religion.
Faith is unwarranted absolute belief in something without any proof or even just cause to make an assumption.
And to have "faith" is in and of itself, illogical.
Religion starts where you assume without reason or cause, and assumption is the mother of all fuck-ups.
PS: Something to think about; how does supposedly perfect god create an IMPERFECT creation? a perfect being does not make mistakes yet according to scripture MANY mistakes have been made by god.
Mon Jul 25, 10:10:00 AM 2011 
 wynd.and.fury said...
@Seymour13:
Here's one way to look at it: Humans are not imperfect because of their design. We are imperfect because we do not automatically default to making one choice - i.e. the "right" choice - in every situation. The amazing thing about our species is the depth of our choice palette; the very fact that so many people on this single post alone have varying views on a single topic demonstrates that. It allows us to experience life uniquely by our own volition, and part of that experience is deciding whether or not you put your faith in that which cannot be readily seen.
But like I had mentioned in my previous post, one of the main issues seems to be the literal acceptance of what the words in any given translation of the Bible say. So even if you say "MANY mistakes have been made by god," you cannot definitively say that because 1) you, nor I, nor anyone else can truly attest to that fact and 2) the definition of a mistake is too fluid.
I would address your other points against YS but I want to hear your thoughts first.
Tue Jul 26, 05:32:00 PM 2011 
 Seymour13 said...
"Humans are not imperfect because of their design. We are imperfect because we do not automatically default to making one choice - i.e. the "right" choice"
If you assume that we were designed, then it's still a design flaw because in that case we are how we were made, and we weren't made to default to making the "right" choice.
But we are more or less wired as far as choices are concerned, our actions and choices are "predetermined", we act- and react to things the way we do because we are who we are (influenced by both the circumstances of the situation and things we've seen, done, went through, and otherwise experienced).
If we made different decisions we wouldn't be ourselves, but someone else entirely.
"But like I had mentioned in my previous post, one of the main issues seems to be the literal acceptance of what the words in any given translation of the Bible say. So even if you say "MANY mistakes have been made by god," you cannot definitively say that because 1) you, nor I, nor anyone else can truly attest to that fact"
True, the bible is a book that has been re-translated and re-written far too often and no-one can say that what the bible says is how things actually happened, or even assume that it is inspired by god (I find it hard to believe that a god's best attempt at communication is a corrupted book).
I was just addressing what the book itself says, as there are (illogical (and even immoral) parts in there.
And while there are some people who are a bit more open minded, alot of people take the bible (at least partially) literally.
"and 2) the definition of a mistake is too fluid."
That depends, when I say "god's mistakes" in biblical context I'm generally leaning toward things like an omniscient/omnipotent being putting a certain tree in the garden of eden, giving the talking snake a chance to dupe adam and eve, and so on and so forth, and ultimately failing to solve the problem he created (sin) with the inadequate jesus loophole.
Then there's biblical law, there are truly unreasonable and even immoral laws in the bible.
Some of which involving sacrifice, murder, thought crime, (self-)mutilation, discrimination, rape and slavery.
Yet this is the same book that is claimed to have been inspired by god, I don't buy it, those laws could not have come from a god.
No ammount of good excuses the ammount of bad that is in there, and the hand of man is far too evident in this book to take it as anything short of a mockery.
These things just don't make sense unless the biblical god lacks the qualities (by admission of the very same bible) it claims god has, in which case we're not talking about a god, but a fraud.
Thu Jul 28, 02:52:00 AM 2011 
 wynd.and.fury said...
@Seymour13:
I numbered my responses according to the quotes you responded to.
1) Do you consider your ability to choose how to live your life as a "design flaw"? I would think that the single most important aspect of our lives is the fact that we can shape them as we will, regardless of how anyone else - ethereal or otherwise - wants us to live.
As for your "predetermined" argument, you are for the most part correct. People do indeed live according to their experience and their inherent qualities they are born with. But again, no person is a slave to their circumstance. Even if two people are subjected to the same hardships, those two people are still capable of choosing for themselves how they wish to live. THAT, in my opinion, is what identifies us uniquely: not our experiences, but our choices because - or in spite - of them.
2) In my opinion, the Bible was never meant to be God's "best attempt at communication," whether you believe in Him or not. While you are right that Bible thumpers and the like may take it literally, I honestly think that the purpose of the Bible is a literary piece like Shakespeare and other great writers and historians: a book filled with stories and historical pieces that differentiates itself because it's "God-inspired." And just because people have put their own spin or flavor on the translation doesn't mean the original intent of the piece is totally lost. However you wish to take it is obviously up to you.
One thing I can't understand though is how you determine morality. To claim that certain acts of God are immoral makes me wonder what your basis for that claim is. I'd like to hear your take on that.
3) Once again, I'm curious where your standard for the proper behavior of an omnipotent, omniscient being comes from, considering you are a finite, limited being like the rest of us. If an all-knowing, ever-present being exists, then how would you comprehend it? We can hardly comprehend the distance from the Earth to the Sun - and that's a limited distance. If there is anything remotely close to infinite in this universe, can we truly quantify or understand it?
I have never seen anything outside of the Milky Way personally, and I'm assuming you haven't either. But scientists that do research and look out into the cosmos present beautiful and amazing pieces from the stars in photographs for the rest of us to appreciate; if you did not witness it yourself, does that mean you immediately discount it? You may surely doubt it, as would I. But simply not witnessing something for yourself does not discredit it. In regards to God, even if you don't buy any of the fluff or facts pushed in front of you, "the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence," as they say right?
If there is a God that is anywhere remotely close to how He is described in a "corrupted book," then we still have no argument. Because ultimately, our life spans are limited to about 80 years or so, and we have no idea who originally wrote anything outside of our immediate scopes or lifetimes. And we are - as you say - limited by our experiences. Many things we do are based on the faith we put in others.
Thu Jul 28, 10:52:00 AM 2011 
 Seymour13 said...
"Do you consider your ability to choose how to live your life as a "design flaw"?"
No, because I don't believe we were designed.
Ehm, I'll just assume you missed the point of that bit entirely...
"those two people are still capable of choosing for themselves how they wish to live."
What's more a part of who you are than how you wish to live?
I believe I had that covered with "because you are who you are".
"One thing I can't understand though is how you determine morality. To claim that certain acts of God are immoral makes me wonder what your basis for that claim is. I'd like to hear your take on that."
Excuse me, but are we not on a blog that lists god's supposed killings?
Add to that biblical law of which I previously gave examples and you've already got (the first part of) your answer.
Everyone who reads the bible can clearly read the atrocities supposedly ordered and condoned by god, also including disgusting mind games such as abraham being told to sacrifice his son as a "test of faith".
Ofcourse we know none of this actually happened, but as always I'm addressing the biblical god (as is the point of this blog itself) and the biblical account of history.
"Once again, I'm curious where your standard for the proper behavior of an omnipotent, omniscient being comes from, considering you are a finite, limited being like the rest of us. If an all-knowing, ever-present being exists, then how would you comprehend it? We can hardly comprehend the distance from the Earth to the Sun - and that's a limited distance. If there is anything remotely close to infinite in this universe, can we truly quantify or understand it?"
The standard is MY moral standard, I compare the biblical god to myself and find him utterly inferior to both myself, and to people in general.
I also spotted an argument from ignorance (logical fallacy).
Sat Jul 30, 05:33:00 AM 2011 
 Seymour13 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Sat Jul 30, 05:36:00 AM 2011 
 Seymour13 said...
(Steve, I only saw half my post come up, and since I've sometimes seen this happen on other sites due to bugs I'm reposting the 2nd part, feel free to disregard this if the original part 2 was posted)
"I have never seen anything outside of the Milky Way personally, and I'm assuming you haven't either. But scientists that do research and look out into the cosmos present beautiful and amazing pieces from the stars in photographs for the rest of us to appreciate; if you did not witness it yourself, does that mean you immediately discount it?"
It depends, I have reasonable trust in scientists because it is their job to figure out how things work and results can actually be tested, repeated, and affirmed.
And in case of the picture I would actually be able (consider I'd have access to the equipment needed) see it for myself.
"But simply not witnessing something for yourself does not discredit it. In regards to God, even if you don't buy any of the fluff or facts pushed in front of you, "the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence," as they say right?"
Partially true, however it does not help it's credibility along either, and the greater the claim the greater the need for evidence to substantiate that claim is.
But as they also say: "what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence" and "extra-ordinary claims require extra-ordinary evidence".
"If there is a God that is anywhere remotely close to how He is described in a "corrupted book," then we still have no argument. Because ultimately, our life spans are limited to about 80 years or so, and we have no idea who originally wrote anything outside of our immediate scopes or lifetimes. And we are - as you say - limited by our experiences."
Not quite sure what your point is with this bit.
But I do see yet another argument from ignorance.
"Many things we do are based on the faith we put in others."
Srry, I don't do faith.
Faith is absolute belief in something regardless of (and often even in spite of) reason and evidence.
Sat Jul 30, 07:55:00 AM 2011 
 Misael1973 said...
Have you ever considered WHY these people died because God made it so? Yeah... please read the WHOLE stories in the bible before u pass judgement on our righteous and Almighty God.
Mon Aug 15, 12:28:00 PM 2011 
 Seymour13 said...
@Misael1973
What makes you think he hasn't read the whole stories?
See Steve's other site: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com
Wed Aug 17, 09:14:00 AM 2011 
 tramsbyxan said...
in what context is slavery ok? or killing homosexuals?
Sat Sep 17, 04:11:00 PM 2011 
 Matt said...
@wynd.and.fury
As nobody seems to have addressed your argument from design I thought I'd have a go. While I think you're correct in describing the way we instinctively seem to be able to identify things which are designed, it would be a mistake the conclude that we are doing anything other than comparing what we see with what we've already seen. Buildings, watches, airplanes, paintings - these are all things for which we have widely held explanations and clearly defined creators. If you find a watch in the desert, or even some machine of unknown origin, you assume design because man-made things all have a signature that is unmistakable. Common components will recur if the device makes use of electronics, plastic is easily identified, etc. We're not assessing the relative complexity of each hypothetical artifact we come across - we're just checking our memory for enough close matches to conclude someone designed it.
Note that there are all kinds of incredibly complex things that occur without our intervention - at every order of magnitude in size examples are everywhere. Snowflakes, crystals forming in mineral rich lakes. At a lower level there's water, which minus external energy will freeze, going from a state of high entropy to a lower one, both putting to rest the simplistic notion that disorder is the only thing that happens without divine or human intervention and providing yet another example of something which is surely complex enough that someone might confuse it for having been designed.
But we don't. Not because these things aren't complex, but because we have plenty of experience to fall back on. We know what stuff we design looks like.
We've only ever seen this one universe, this one planet. What would a non-designed universe look like, next to a designed one? Here our complete lack of experience makes it impossible to take anything more than a wait and see attitude towards whether or not the thing that contains us and our planet was designed or came about some other way. Luckily science does its best not to jump to conclusions that are unwarranted, no matter how much people might want those conclusions to be true. If there's one thing I think I can state unequivocally about Christians without risk of contradiction, it's that the way they think the universe works is also the way they hope it works.
Not true for the rest of us. A benevolent creator and a cushy afterlife would be awesome. I'm not so keen on the god that's currently top of the charts, or the snoozefest/eternal punishment binary option currently on offer, but at least the idea of a nice god who takes a personal interest in me is something I can understand might be nice.
Sadly, the evidence doesn't point towards that. So it's integrity that keeps me on the side of reason, science, and logically consistent morality. To revert to what I see as a more primitive state, cringing whenever loud noises come from on high and walking around on eggshells trying to follow rules that nobody understands, let alone agrees upon - to do that would mean jettisoning the bits of me that religious types would describe as "god given."
Sat Nov 05, 12:49:00 AM 2011 
 wynd.and.fury said...
@Matt:
Well spoken, Matt. You do bring up a good point that we do tend to base our understanding of the world upon that which we can compare. And to be honest, I can't really see us functioning any other way. Even now, we are forced to rely on the experiences of others around us for knowledge we have yet or may never attain without outside help. I don't see anything wrong with that; the various sciences are designed to be built upon the previous works of generations past, while continuously being questioned and refined for holes in understanding.
As for your comment, "Luckily science does its best not to jump to conclusions that are unwarranted," I would say that inherently, you are correct. The nature of how science works is that it is an art of observation. However, just like anything else, data can be skewed or presented for whatever agenda one is trying to present. So when it comes to theories like evolution or even creationism, whether you stand for or against them, you can present the data however you wish to give the impression and/or conclusion that you seek. So when you say "the way [Christians] think the universe works is also the way they hope it works," you can say that about nearly anybody. And just as there are a variety of scientists with a variety of viewpoints, so are there a variety of believers in any faith who will have different stances on different issues. Exhibit A: The outrageous number of denominations under the Christian banner.
As for scientific evidence of the nature of God, that idea is ludicrous. Science cannot observe that which cannot be observed empirically, so anyone suggesting that idea cannot stand behind it. The nature of God can be explored through historical texts and the like, but in reality, this isn't "data." One could - in my opinion - treat the Bible like any other holy text or classic literature that people hold in high regard; it is a source of knowledge based on the inspirations of ancient authors. There is information that lines up with events in history, and prophecies that line up with documents outside of the Text, but other than that, it's merely a Book. That alone is not enough.
I ask this of people often when it comes to this, what is the nature or purpose of science? Is it to explain the "why" or the "how"?
I'd also like to hear your stance on "logically-consistent morality." In your mind, is morality determined on an individual level, based on how one views it?
Sat Nov 05, 01:51:00 PM 2011 
 moe said...
If you could create people or restore them why would it matter if you killed them after they decided to try it their way?
Mon Nov 21, 04:00:00 PM 2011 
 Adaml11600 said...
You forgot the billions that will be killed in Revelations as only 144,000 will go to heaven. And since most of us are not Jewish we will all go to hell. Oh dear. Might as well we sin.
Revelation 7:3-8 (ESV)
saying: "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the servants of God on their foreheads." And I heard the number of the sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:
12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed,
12,000 from the tribe of Reuben,
12,000 from the tribe of Gad,
12,000 from the tribe of Asher,
12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali,
12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,
12,000 from the tribe of Simeon,
12,000 from the tribe of Levi,
12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,
12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun,
12,000 from the tribe of Joseph,
12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.
Wed Nov 23, 01:06:00 AM 2011 
 Best Value said...
25 million huh? Not bad. So in 6,000 years, God only killed a quarter of what atheists killed (100 million) in the last 100 years.
Tue Dec 06, 01:15:00 AM 2011 
 wynd.and.fury said...
Best Value,
How does your comment at all encourage discussion? You're practically dangling raw meat before a pack of wolves, expecting not to be bitten.
Wed Dec 07, 07:06:00 AM 2011 
 Moral Movement said...
Best value misses a point. If any atheists killed anyone, and God actually existed, then God has instigated or allowed these killings. God is guilty by actively or passively having people killed.
Furthermore, Steve has only mentioned biblical killings. That does not include the millions that have died through crusades, jihads and various and numerous religiously inspired wars and conquests.
Steve, I think you missed that Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge, and as a result of this act mankind would not live an eternal life. In other words the entire human race - billions of us - would die because these two people ate some fruit. Seems a pathetically vile god to me.
Sat Dec 17, 03:34:00 PM 2011 
 shelb said...
Some live as parasites, and with assumptions they cut the cord on life at the moment of the passing body unlike God who blesses more than one lifetime in the hope people learn from their mistakes..
Tue Jan 24, 12:28:00 PM 2012 
 shelb said...
Save the judgement for yourself, bad interpretations and one sided views without overall conclusions lack factual framework ,you can come back at this with a smart answer but in the end the justification for these deaths will be revealed and you my dear friend will look as foolish as your scribblings ,for somebody who apparently does not exist you sure have a hard on for God..x
Tue Jan 24, 12:42:00 PM 2012 
 Moral Movement said...
Shelb, I guess that you not only believe in an unprovable God, but that you also believe in unprovable angels and Satan as well as an unprovable heaven and hell. You certainly seem to also believe in an unprovable after life that your ilk aspires to go to after an unspecified time. Some of you think that this will happen pretty much after you die, whilst others of you think it will happen on the Day of Judgement.
Your tone would suggest that you will be very happy for a person like me to go to the unprovable hell, as nasty as it might be, simply because the god that you espouse can't prove itself to me.
So you think that I should suffer because of its incompetence.
Nice one.
Wed Jan 25, 08:12:00 PM 2012 
 keith burrow said...
@Moral movement....I dont hope nor pray for you to go to the Hell you insist cant be proven; on the contrary....I pray that you get a revelation of the God who is revealing himself to me....he's awesome....even more so than the one I tried to create in my own mind before he was ready for me to know Him. ...absolutely unfathomable....as far as the main-body of this article....Arent we glad that all those things happened when mankind was at enmity with God and not today....it'd be a pretty nasty world to have to navigate with a God like Him at war with us....FORTUNATELY, the war was over at the point of atonement when Jesus said "It is finished" and now we have a covenant that covers ALL of mankind (Those who choose to enter it) and not just one nation. And this new one requires NO blood sacrifice beyond the one that has already been made and this covenant includes PROSPERITY in exchange for belief and wholeness & wellness in exchange for faith....and ETERNAL LIFE in exchange for believing in a Messiah who gave His perfect self in exchange for those of us who were doomed....and EVERY BIT OF IT IS BOUGHT AND PAID FOR AND FREE FOR THE TAKING....and it requires NO PERFORMANCE STANDARDS....as a matter of fact you cant buy it with behavior and performance if you TRIED....Nope....it's GRACE and it's FREE through FAITH!!!! Find me and "In-box" me at facebook if you'd like to learn how to get in on it-- Keith Burrow, Scroggins Texas....Im the one wearing the red ball-cap.
Sun Jan 29, 11:16:00 AM 2012 
 keith burrow said...
One more thing for Moral Movement: The "Pathetically vile" comment....let me help you to understand where you are missing the mechanics here....Adam was given DOMINION over the creation BEFORE Satan deceived Eve...when Adam agreed to indulge her sin and sin along with her he CEDED Dominion to Satan....that DOMINION was a sovereign dominion and it was given to Adam via the WORD of god....since the WORD of god actually holds together everything that forms the universe (Everything created was created through the Word of God) if he violated His word in any way at any time the entire universe would disintegrate and the entire creation would be lost so he couldn't just "intervene" and violate his word by taking dominion back from Satan....so he had to create a plan to rescue us that included blood atonement and since the blood of men and animals is tainted by the fall of the creation, he had to organize and conduct a 4000 year plan to use WORD to get HIS OWN BLOOD worked into the human race via a virgin birth so he could sacrifice that perfect blood and free us from the curse of the fall....its very very complicated, yes....but it's NOT a sci-fi and it's not just a fairy tale....there are answers for EVERY question....they just have to be ferreted out
Sun Jan 29, 11:29:00 AM 2012 
 keith burrow said...
Oh ....and one last note for Moral Movement: Dont let the truth make you reluctant....sometimes when folks start to come to terms with the truth that there really is a God who loves them, they dig their heels in because there is a part of their mind that says "If Im going to admit that this God really does exist, Im gonna have to become one of THEM" eewwwwww!!! .....well those people who have turned you off, because of the goofy crap they spew that doesn't add up and is so condemning and condescending??? ....Those people are as lost as a goose in a snowstorm and I have to pray for them more than anyone, because when someone THINKS they know something they dont know....it's really hard to get to them and get them to open their minds and think. So when you start to ask God that question most TRUE believers have asked (The one that goes: "alright God....I dont think you're real, but if you are I WANT TO KNOW YOU...because if you really are REAL and my mind simply doesn't comprehend you yet, then I REALLY NEED to know you)remember that those of us who are TRUE believers....dont care anything at all about being better than anyone else and we dont want to CHANGE anyone else and we dont care to condemn anyone else.....we simply want people to open their minds to the real truth and then decide whether or not they care to pursue the REAL God.
Sun Jan 29, 11:40:00 AM 2012 
 keith burrow said...
The point in probability where "Possibility" ceases to exist is somewhere around 10 to the 10th power to one ......mathematics, as far as anyone has sought to reckon, sets the odds of "evolution" or "spontaneous generation" generating the Known universe in it's current known state at UPWARDS OF (10 to the TRILLIONTH power) to (one) ....wouldn't anyone in their right mind stop at about ....oh...lets say (10 to the 11,473,311th power)to (one) and say...."FELLAS, it looks like this place had some help getting here!"
Sun Jan 29, 11:53:00 AM 2012 
 Moral Movement said...
Keith Burrow, it is interesting that you get onto a website like this, that allows you to babble on, yet a religious website would bar someone like me.
Regarding Adam and Eve. If Eve came from the rib of Adam, the cloned person would be a male, so Adam and Steve rather than Adam and Eve.
Why would you believe primitive stories that are 2,000 3,000 years old. Why would you believe primitive stories about gods, angels, ghosts, devils, heaven, hell and an after-life, none of which has any proof?
You speak out against blood sacrifices, and indeed it is stated that your make-believe god thought that this was a bad idea. Yet, guess what your god did? We are led to believe that he sacrificed his only son. And guess why he did this? Because he was so incompetent with his human creation that his human creation would not grovel to him as much as he desired. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Perhaps you might read "The Man Who Created God." by Stephen Marton. It tells exactly how your God was created.
Wed Feb 01, 09:26:00 PM 2012 
 Texture said...
Hello. I would like to see a list of whom the "Christians" have murdered.
(A real Christian would ache till their death showing LOVE instead of violence (Something we only see the Amish do) - Sadly all the other "CHRISTian$" seem to be way over on the other side - choosing the powerful (Murderers) side instead of the cooperative, loving ones (real Christians).
Aside from the young boys molested - I would like to see a list of whom and how many the "Christian$" have killed in our history of having Christians (or "Christians") on the planet.
Please remember to include the murders of the North American Indians (whom were read their new laws in Spanish & Latin by Christians- and if they did not bow down to this new religion (and taking of their land & possessions & sometimes wives & children - they would be murdered.)
Custer fancied himself a good Christian. So did Andrew "The only good Indian, is a DEAD Indian" Jackson (yeah that guy on the 20.$ bill!) - So do most of the hicks wearing the shirt, "KILL 'em all, let GOD sort 'em out!"
- - - We realize that a bad apple simply calling themselves a Christian (or whatever) does NOT make them so - but we are talking about mass murder/extinction from the planet with the okay from the church! (Think of the ties from the Popes to the one$ in power/politics from many countries that wanted more power. "Well, as long as you're spreading Christianity... ok rape and murder as you see fit."
Fri Feb 10, 06:33:00 AM 2012 
 VOXDEI said...
en la manera como describes a Dios parece ser que es malvado para ti o para muchos que pueden estar de acuerdo contigo, sin embargo yo quiero hacer varias preguntas:
1. los que colonizaron EEUU cuanta gente asesinaron para obtener sus tierras?
2. en la independencia EEUU cuanta gente fue asesinada para libertar su país?
3. en la guerra primera y segunda guerra mundial cuanta gente mato para defender su país?
4. En la guerra civil de EEUU cuanta gente asesinó el gobierno para defender su país de sus mismos habitantes?
5. cuanta gente asesino EEUU en la guerra contra el medio oriente para defender su tierra de los talibanes?
Y la cantidad de muertos supera mas de 24.000.000 de asesinatos pero el gobierno de los estados Unidos de America dice que lo hacen para mantener la libertad de su pueblo y nación, calificando a las demas naciones como agresoras de esta ¿y quién dice que no es así?
si un país como Estados Unidos que su gobierno es finito, puede asesinar justificando su causa en defender la libertad de una nación, ¿quien cuestiona a Dios todo poderoso Dador de Vida, tomar de lo que le pertenece y quitarle la vida a las naciones que atentan contra su pueblo escogido o de reprender a los civiles de se rebelan sin causa contra su propio pueblo para hacer daño?
no es muy diferente de lo que en algunos estados en Estados Unidos, por conservar la paz y la armonía de la sociedad, dan pena de muerte.
Se juzga a Dios por defender su pueblo escogido, solo para justificar un corazón alejado de Él y que necesita de Él. Dios es Dios de Amor y de toda consolación, no hay que buscar lo malo de Dios por que en el no hay nada malo, es lo que haría un padre por un hijo al que ama... y creo que no haces parte de una nación del antiguo testamento asolada por Dios. tienes la oportunidad de acercarte a Dios confiadamente al trono de la gracia . Dios no va hacer contigo lo que los malvados han hecho en el transcurso de la historia por lo que Dios los ha reprendido. Cristo a ti te ama y te quiere salvar. y tienen que alejarte de Dios para justificarte sabiendo que tienes un vacío en tu corazón que solo Jesucristo te puede llenar... Dios es un padre amoroso que esta esperando a que tu te arrepientas para sanar las heridas de tu corazón.
Jeirlen Padilla Molina
amigoyey@hotmail.com
Colombia
Tue Feb 28, 04:19:00 PM 2012 
 VOXDEI said...
en la manera como describes a Dios parece ser que es malvado para ti o para muchos que pueden estar de acuerdo contigo, sin embargo yo quiero hacer varias preguntas:
1. los que colonizaron EEUU cuanta gente asesinaron para obtener sus tierras?
2. en la independencia EEUU cuanta gente fue asesinada para libertar su país?
3. en la guerra primera y segunda guerra mundial cuanta gente mato para defender su país?
4. En la guerra civil de EEUU cuanta gente asesinó el gobierno para defender su país de sus mismos habitantes?
5. cuanta gente asesino EEUU en la guerra contra el medio oriente para defender su tierra de los talibanes?
Y la cantidad de muertos supera mas de 24.000.000 de asesinatos pero el gobierno de los estados Unidos de America dice que lo hacen para mantener la libertad de su pueblo y nación, calificando a las demas naciones como agresoras de esta ¿y quién dice que no es así?
si un país como Estados Unidos que su gobierno es finito, puede asesinar justificando su causa en defender la libertad de una nación, ¿quien cuestiona a Dios todo poderoso Dador de Vida, tomar de lo que le pertenece y quitarle la vida a las naciones que atentan contra su pueblo escogido o de reprender a los civiles de se rebelan sin causa contra su propio pueblo para hacer daño?
no es muy diferente de lo que en algunos estados en Estados Unidos, por conservar la paz y la armonía de la sociedad, dan pena de muerte.
Se juzga a Dios por defender su pueblo escogido, solo para justificar un corazón alejado de Él y que necesita de Él. Dios es Dios de Amor y de toda consolación, no hay que buscar lo malo de Dios por que en el no hay nada malo, es lo que haría un padre por un hijo al que ama... y creo que no haces parte de una nación del antiguo testamento asolada por Dios. tienes la oportunidad de acercarte a Dios confiadamente al trono de la gracia . Dios no va hacer contigo lo que los malvados han hecho en el transcurso de la historia por lo que Dios los ha reprendido. Cristo a ti te ama y te quiere salvar. y tienen que alejarte de Dios para justificarte sabiendo que tienes un vacío en tu corazón que solo Jesucristo te puede llenar... Dios es un padre amoroso que esta esperando a que tu te arrepientas para sanar las heridas de tu corazón.
Jeirlen Padilla Molina
amigoyey@hotmail.com
Colombia
Tue Feb 28, 04:26:00 PM 2012 
 CK said...
I hope God doesn't get offended by your chart and smite you!
Sun Mar 11, 10:56:00 PM 2012 
 Morgaine said...
Wow - interesting debate. I'm sorry I missed it. I'm a Goddess worshiper so I usually straddle the two sides - I demand that religion agree with science but I also have experienced perfectly natural phenomena that most people would define as "supernatural."
I do a lot of fact-checking on the Abrahamic death cults - Judaism, Catholicism, Greek orthodoxy, Protestantism, Islam and Mormonism - because I think Yahweh is the worst thing ever conceived by the minds of men. We've had 6,000 years of an unnatural social order because of these moldy old scrolls, and it's time we put an end to "his" reign of terror.
Thanks so much for all your work! I'm so glad you've created this blog as well as your annotated Skeptic's texts. Happy Spring!
Sun Apr 01, 10:37:00 AM 2012 
 Salt of the earth said...
Your argument is basically nonsense. Here is why. God is the creator of everything in existence. Therefore, human beings are subject to His will and His judgement. God is just in every action He takes. The penalty for sin is death. Therefore, all of the people that you think were innocent that God killed were not innocent at all. They were guilty of sin and therefore, the just punishment is death. Also, killing a criminal is not murder. Killing a criminal is just punishment.
Wed Apr 25, 08:54:00 AM 2012 
 Leonidus the Great. said...
to Salt of the Earth.. so your argument is that sinners are killed because it is just action by God? In that aspect, shouldn't God kill you for your sins?
Sun May 06, 04:55:00 PM 2012 
 Dee said...
In answer to that, yes He should. I am completely at His mercy. See, of God was ONLY just, all of us would be goners. But He is also (and dare I say, more predominately) love. He has an obligation to obliterate sin. Sadly, all of his beloved race of humans have chosen to embrace it and thus attach themselves to the problem. Easiest solution: wipe us all out (see Genesis 6). But no, He had mercy enough to let one sinner and his family live, and the problem persists. His eternal solution: let His Son take the sin away. Now, through Jesus, God has invented a way to separate sin and sinner so that sin can be aptly obliterated and love can prevail. But since all of us have free choice, we can still choose to love sin and that's what breaks God's heart
Tue May 08, 11:46:00 AM 2012 
 Eehlex said...
So your great omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent God got it wrong the first time, didn't he...! Like a real Middle Eastern dictator, like the people who edited and re-invented their tribal stories about this out-of-date, contradictory killing machine.
Sat May 12, 06:01:00 AM 2012 
 pyromaniac77 said...
Although this doesn't seem like much when you look at Satan's whopping killstreak of... 10. (All of Job's children)
Thu May 24, 04:43:00 AM 2012 
 bob said...
Can someone make a count of how many deaths and how much misery, blood, guts and suffering has been caused by evolution (survival of the fittest) over millions of years?
How many people did the leaders of athiestic 'survival of the fittest' regimes (Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc) torture and murder? Actually, more than anyone else in the rest of history.
These men were great admirers of Darwin.
Human life had no more worth to them than that of cattle, which made sense from their perspective since we are just rearanged pond scum, as per evolutionary teaching.
But far from being insane they thought they were doing good by taking evolution to its logical conclusion and getting rid of all the physically and phychologically damaged, and 'racially inferior' human 'parasites', and thereby creating a better humanity.
So the real question is, which is more cruel, God or evolution?
Thu Jul 12, 01:06:00 AM 2012 
 Jferrin said...
Bob-
First, They did not kill in the name of atheism, however, many religious zealots did their killing in the name of the lord. That is no small thing there. They killed because of religion, because of God.
Second, Hitler was a self-professed Christian.
Third you ascribe philosophies and motivations on people that you have no way of knowing.
Thu Jul 26, 10:49:00 AM 2012 
 Jferrin said...
Bob-
First, They did not kill in the name of atheism, however, many religious zealots did their killing in the name of the lord. That is no small thing there. They killed because of religion, because of God.
Second, Hitler was a self-professed Christian.
Third you ascribe philosophies and motivations on people that you have no way of knowing.
Thu Jul 26, 10:50:00 AM 2012 
 Kristen Helton said...
I have never understood the passion of those who believe we are all just a cosmic accident. As though things matter like truth and justice. Where do these concepts come from? So a fairytale book says a fairytale creator killed some fairytale people. If there is no meaning and purpose behind our creation and therefore no meaning in our existence, why do you care enough to argue with passion against what is not real? Death occurs by the millions everyday in our world. People die, plants die, bugs die. WHO CARES!!! This is meaningless chaos. Unless it is not. Maybe there is intention and meaning behind our creation. What caused the big bang? What was before the big bang? When you reach the end you are left with SOMETHING or SOMEONE that is SELF EXISTENT. The science you so rely on proves that something cannot be created by nothing - cause and effect. We can observe the effect (creation) this PROVES a self existant cause because it has to begin somewhere. The only thing that can begin it would have to be beyond our natural world that we can measure with science because it breaks the law of cause and effect. It causes out of nothing just as the Bible teaches. The Bible also proves itself through hundreds and hundreds of predictions that have come to pass which would be mathematically impossible to predict. Thank God for science.
Sat Jul 28, 12:37:00 AM 2012 
 bob said...
Jferrin-
First, they killed in the name of evolution as the ideology displayed in their public speeches records.
Second, self professed Christian does not mean genuine Christian as Hitler and countless others throughout history have demonstrated.
A crimminal will say anything to get his foot in the door.
Third, "For a tree is known by its fruit." Mat 12:33.
Philosophies and motivations are known by the fruit they end up bearing.
In Hitlers case alone, about 50 million killed as a result of the war that he instigated in the name of his Darwinian, survival of the fittest ideology.
For further proof, listen to some of his speeches or read his book, 'Mien Kampf' (My Struggle)and his philosophy soon becomes apparent.
Mat 12:33 is the way to differentiate between true Christian's and false Christian's, that is, by their fruit.
Mon Jul 30, 09:22:00 PM 2012 
 Fred Good said...
I believe there are some things we can't possibly understand, and unlike those who believe in a man who lives in the sky, I will admit that I do not know. But I will never believe a person who tells me that they know for sure that there is a God.
Tue Jul 31, 10:57:00 PM 2012 
 bob said...
Fred Good-
True, there are some things we cannot understand. But we can easily understand that God exists.
To prove that there is a God can be done simply by disproving the validity of the only other option for the existence of life. That is, that everything brought itself into existence through evolution (the naturalistic origin of life and its diversity).
The following questions demonstrate that evolution is simply not possible.
How did life originate?
Evolutionist Proffessor Paul Davies admitted, "Nobody knows how a mixture of lifeless chemicals spontaneously organized themselves into the first living cell." Andrew Knoll, professor of biology, Harvard, said "We don't really know how life originated on this planet." A minimal cell needs several hundred proteins. Even if every atom in the universe were an experiment with all the correct amino acids for every possible molecular vibration in the supposed evolutionary age of the universe, not even one average-sized functional protein would form. So how did life with hundreds of proteins originate just by chemistry without intelligent design?
How did the DNA code originate?
The code is a sophisticated language system with letters and words where the meaning of the words is unrelated to the chemical properties of the letters - just as the information on this page is not a product of the chemical properties of the ink (or pixels on a screen). What other coding system has existed without intelligent design? How did the DNA coding system arise without it being created?
[The DNA molecule is the most compact and efficient information storage system in the known universe. For example, the amount of information that could be stored in a single pinhead of DNA would be equivalent to a pile of paperback novels 240 times as high as the distance from the earth to the moon, or 100 million times more information than a 40 gigabyte hard drive could hold on your computer. Even if we could explain the creation of complex coded information by chance, there would be another problem. We would need at the same time to create a mechanism capable of reading and using this coded information; otherwise, the information alone is useless.
A fully functional system for writing, reading, and using information is required. This is an example of "irreducible complexity." That is, to be fully functional, the writing mechanism, the reading mechanism, and the mechanism for using the information must all be present at the very first instance it appears. If one of these components is missing, the system won't work. Since life is built on a hierachy of such "irreducibly complex" machines, the idea that natural processes could have made mere chemicals into living systems is untenable]
Why are the (expected) counless millions of transitional fossils missing?
Darwin noted the problem and it still remains. he evolutionary family trees in textbooks are based on imagination, not fossil evidence. Famous Harvard paleontologist (and evolutionist), Stephen Jay Gould, wrote, "The extreme rarity of transitional forms in the fossil record persists as the trade secret of paleontology." Other evolutionist fossil experts also admit the problem.
Thu Aug 02, 01:08:00 AM 2012 
 Stephen Buchanan said...
@Kristen Helton:
"I have never understood the passion of those who believe we are all just a cosmic accident"
Well, actually most of us who choose to NOT believe in something (e.g. Christianity) aren't really passionate about that at all. Are you passionate about NOT collecting stamps? We actually have lives to get on with here. I have a beautiful wife and a delightful child and two Burmese cats and two energetic Ridgebacks running around in my garden that I love to plant trees in... And so on..
We only get passionate about things like Christianity because it refuses to go away, it wants to indoctrinate our children, deny rights to gays, teach fairy tales instead of evolution in science classes, keep women as second-class citizens, and... so much more. If Christianity goes away, or at least learns to keep to itself, we can stop all the "passion" you object to.
Besides, you paint this incredibly bleak picture of the "meaningless chaos" in which we live. Yes, bad stuff happens. But good stuff happens all the time, too. It is a miracle to be alive, haven't you noticed? What a beautiful world we live in. At least when bad stuff happens, I know there's nothing "behind" it - shit just happens. But when bad stuff happens and you're a Christian, well, YOU are the one with a lot of explaining to do...
Thu Aug 02, 04:01:00 AM 2012 
 SamEdge said...
I don't know if someone has already asked this, so sorry if it is a repetition. I've noticed that the estimate of populations often differ from the bible versus scientific data. Have you considered having two separate estimates for the cases where the exact number of people killed isn't clearly stated in the bible? One based on scientific data of populations and one based on what the bible says?
Great blog by the way. Very concise, informative and often times amusing.
Tue Aug 21, 11:13:00 AM 2012 
 Steve Wells said...
SamEdge,
I try to give the biblical number of victims when numbers are given in the text, and estimates when no numbers are provided. Of course, it's hard to give reasonable estimates to imaginary events, but I do what I can.
Tue Aug 21, 11:34:00 AM 2012 
 edgar verdin said...
En primer lugar, mataron en nombre de la evolución como la ideología aparece en sus registros de discursos públicos???
Tue Aug 21, 01:10:00 PM 2012 
 JJ Pearson said...
I apologize for not reading all of the comments, and if the following points have previously been raised, I apologize.
God created a perfect world, with but one restriction, and gave us the opportunity to live in it. We abused that privilege. Hence, for defying the Creator, we all deserve death and damnation. The fact that God has only directly killed this few is a measure of His mercy and forgiveness. Furthermore, so as not to go against His perfect justice, He provided His Son as a payment for the debt our sins require.
Tue Sep 04, 08:50:00 AM 2012 
 wakawakwaka said...
@Bob i am sorry but you are an idiot,they did not kill in the name of evolution , they killed in the name of their own egos,besides hitler hated athiests and banned teaching evolution in Germany...
Besides how come racists are more likely to be creationists than evoltuionists.....For example all of the creation scientists in Darwins day where EXTREMELY racist, while Darwin himself opposed it, and the kkk and Christian indenity movement are al creationists as well
Wed Sep 19, 01:53:00 PM 2012 
 wakawakwaka said...
@ JJ but blood is not required for forgivness from God....like in the book of Jonah
Wed Sep 19, 02:00:00 PM 2012 
 igorc said...
you know, if you think about it, God actually is responsible for all deaths that have ever taken place. I mean, He did introduce 'death' when He banished Adam from the Garden of Eden, so without that, death wouldn't exist. So there you have it: God is responsible for 100% of the deaths in the world.
Tue Nov 13, 12:46:00 AM 2012 
 Paul S said...
I was impressed with the death per minute ratio in Scarface, 1 death for every 4 minutes of film for a total of 42, but that’s peanuts compared to the bible. At 2000 pages, we’re talking over 1276 confirmed kills per page. Now that’s impressive.
Wed Mar 13, 09:45:00 AM 2013 
 Adrian said...
@Bob
There is one very important thing you need to understand. Just because you say Hitler wasn't a real Christian doesn't make it so. With 38000 denominations of Christians one has to wonder who in this day and age is a real Christian?
And i can do you one better. A false Christian as you described Hitler doesn't make him an atheist. In fact let me spell yhis out for you since you don't really seem to get it.
1. christian killing someone who is of a different religion because of his religion is religious on nature;
2. christian killing one or a bunch of people for not being christian is religious in nature;
3. christian killing one or a bunch of people for power or interest or money, etc all except their religion is non religious murder.
1. atheist killing a christian for being a christian is a religious murder;
2. atheist killing one or more people for their varied religious views and not being atheists are religious murders;
3. atheist killing one or more people for power, money, influence, etc is a non religious murder.
Now if you take into context all religious wars(crusades, inquisition, jihads, etc) all of them fit into the first tho Christian examples. i know they are not all Christians, but you can just change the word Christian with Muslim or any other religion and it will be the same.
All of your atheistic examples, and MOST examples existing in the world today go into the third atheist example. Stalin was an atheist but he didn't kill for atheism. He killed to gain power and maintain his dictatorship. Hitler on the other hand conducted the Jew extermination on both political and religious reasons no matter how misguided they were.
It doesn't really matter if someone does murder in the name of religion but he is not a true believer, or he interpreted the religion wrong. He still did the murder and if religion was not there to guide him he may not have done it in the first place. Also, please keep in mind that all religious people believe they have it right. So even though you may call him a loon his convictions are strong.
Sun Mar 24, 02:28:00 AM 2013 
 josue jumalon said...
If God does not kill then there is no justice for the good.
Wed Apr 17, 06:11:00 PM 2013 
 Stephen said...
Looking forward to the new edition of "Drunk with Blood", Steve!
Thanks for re-posting this thread. I've scanned over it and, once again, am amazed at the number of folks who aren't taking their medications.
Blogger josue jumalon said...
"If God does not kill then there is no justice for the good."
That's right! I don't feel justice has been served unless I see others getting killed. (/sarcasm)
Only a moron would say such a thing. BTW, have you noticed that whenever god is responsible for killing, it's almost always people who *do* the killing. Just saying.
Public Service Announcement: Guys, take your meds. :-)
Steve Weeks
Sat May 18, 07:06:00 AM 2013 
 markch9v23 said...
Hi everyone... yes, God has killed a lot of people... I would say that God has actually killed everyone there ever was, except for the people still around today...
Blessings to all of you... I just want to preach a bit here, if you'll bear with me... lol
God loves you all... give him a chance today ;)
Blessings :)
Sun May 19, 03:47:00 AM 2013 
 Stephen said...
markch9v23 said...
I just want to preach a bit here, if you'll bear with me... lol

Let me see if I have this right. God kills everyone, probably including me someday. But *you* are blessing me. Does this keep me from getting killed? No, probably not. But god loves me. What should I give him a chance to do? Kill me?
Tell you what... don't quit your day job to be a preacher. Unless you *are* a preacher, in which case you need a new job. :-)
Steve Weeks
Sun May 19, 03:28:00 PM 2013 
 elkojohn said...
Stephen, I appreciate your work.
I returned after 19-months of combat (1971)
a broken man, who hated what I saw, did,
and experienced in Vietnam.
I hated my government for for being the
''greatest purveyor of violence in the world'' (MLK)
(and still do).
Everything I experienced in war reminded me of
the old testament god & the book of revelation.
And yes, the majority of soldiers and military
chaplains were convinced that god was on our side,
i.e. kill a commie for christ.
And the vast majority of ''christians'' have no
idea what it means to
''love your enemy and turn the other cheek.''
When I see the beauty in our planet and universe
(Hubble pics), I know that it is entirely possible
for some creative entity to be behind it all . . .
When I see the evil that we humans do to each other,
and the destruction we inflict on our planet,
I figure the sooner our species eliminates itself,
the better for what's left on the planet.
If all humans did their best to
Act justly,
Love others with mercy and kindness,
Walk Humbly with their god,
feed the hungry
shelter the homeless
care for the sick
visit those in prison
then I think we humans
would merit the title of good.
But alas, our 50,000 year old genetic
structure will not allow for
a religion of love.
Mon May 20, 07:50:00 PM 2013 
 Nathan said...
Am I the only one that thinks the 2000 pigs should be included. That was a horrific killing (Mark 5: 1-17):
Jesus Heals a Demon-Possessed Man
So they arrived at the other side of the lake, in the region of the Gerasenes. When Jesus climbed out of the boat, a man possessed by an evilb spirit came out from a cemetery to meet him. This man lived among the burial caves and could no longer be restrained, even with a chain. Whenever he was put into chains and shackles—as he often was—he snapped the chains from his wrists and smashed the shackles. No one was strong enough to subdue him. Day and night he wandered among the burial caves and in the hills, howling and cutting himself with sharp stones.
When Jesus was still some distance away, the man saw him, ran to meet him, and bowed low before him. With a shriek, he screamed, “Why are you interfering with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? In the name of God, I beg you, don’t torture me!” For Jesus had already said to the spirit, “Come out of the man, you evil spirit.”
Then Jesus demanded, “What is your name?”
And he replied, “My name is Legion, because there are many of us inside this man.” Then the evil spirits begged him again and again not to send them to some distant place.
There happened to be a large herd of pigs feeding on the hillside nearby. “Send us into those pigs,” the spirits begged. “Let us enter them.”
So Jesus gave them permission. The evil spirits came out of the man and entered the pigs, and the entire herd of about 2,000 pigs plunged down the steep hillside into the lake and drowned in the water.
The herdsmen fled to the nearby town and the surrounding countryside, spreading the news as they ran. People rushed out to see what had happened. A crowd soon gathered around Jesus, and they saw the man who had been possessed by the legion of demons. He was sitting there fully clothed and perfectly sane, and they were all afraid. Then those who had seen what happened told the others about the demon-possessed man and the pigs. And the crowd began pleading with Jesus to go away and leave them alone.
********
I also think the fig tree should get a spot on the list but I understand that was the least vicious out of God's 100s of times of depriving living things of life.
Leviticus 24:17,18 “Whoever takes a human life shall surely be put to death. Whoever takes an animal’s life shall make it good, life for life…”
That reminds me, maybe an animal and plant section could be added (small blog post about it in the book?). Recalling some of the livestock plagues in Exodus (and I'm sure you know of plenty of more examples).
Animal, plant, and human-killing God. If only people were aware of this Atrocious Figurine.
Shit, I'd even add a section for all the mass extinction events despite no mention in the bible because they were so scientifically and historically illiterate. They literally lived in the darkness considering electricity is a modern day discovery.
Sorry for long post/ramble, just having fun with it. The other day I was thinking the calendar should be BN/AN (Before Newton / After Newton). But even he was severely flawed in certain areas (age of earth and alchemy). Maybe it should be BD/AD (Before Darwin / After Darwin). Hopefully when religion is completely extinguished from 1st world countries (oh, about 100-150 years from now) it will be BR/AR (Before Religion/After Religion).


Mon May 20, 08:50:00 PM 2013 
 Tomcat Alexander said...
what about when Peter prays to jesus so that Simon magus falls from the sky and simon falls and breaks his legs and peter and the other christians stone poor Simon to death, Acts of Peter
Tue May 21, 04:08:00 PM 2013 
 Stephen said...
Elkojohn,
I thank you sincerely for your service, and sympathize (grieve, actually) for what it did to you.
You can probably see that others might look out on the known universe and come to the exact opposite conclusion about the need for a creative entity, and why, even if there were one, it would be so interested in us out of all that splendor..
Take "... with their god.." out of the third paragraph from the end of your post, and you have something we can agree on as a target for our society, or our world. There's no need for a religion, of love, peace, or whatever.
And the good news is that some people think we are headed (albeit slowly) in the right direction. World-wide violence is on the decrease according to Steven Pinker, among others. Imagine how good things would be if different religions would become completely tolerant of all other religions, including those with no religion. That would be a true miracle.
I don't believe our future behavior as a species is completely controlled by our genes. Call me an optimist!
Steve Weeks
Tue May 21, 07:22:00 PM 2013 
 Marcus Friedrich said...
24 million killed. Stalinesque statistics indeed.
And according to the story, all of this savage death at the hands of this super cctv camera god in the ether was necessary and merely a teaser/trailer to the eternal marathon of sadistic suffering and despondency that surely awaits each one of them in Christian hell.
Thankfully there's no reason to believe such a vile, repugnant entity exists.
Thu May 23, 11:51:00 PM 2013 
 Robert said...
The god of NATURE kills every living thing. Is nature not the god of your world? Maybe there is a better universe within the multiverse? What if death is a doorway to another Universe? Of course the old barbaric stories are barbaric, but surely there is wisdom to be found. George Washington would be a forgotten enemy if the British would have won The Revolutionary War.
Wed May 29, 10:40:00 AM 2013 
 true identity said...
now let me say this here is not how many god has killed that matters, God is a good God, a perfect God and wants as all to be close to Him and be like Him, legally. God is not a magician or does magic. God is not in the business of manipulation. a programmer thinks, has a dream and begin to manipulate codes and figures just to get his dream output. now do you know how many codes he typed to get his software running and yet after 6 months writes a new program and says its an upgrade? you see my dear friends, God made man for Himself, man is God's product, man should obey what the programmer wants, but God says ok, if you guys dont want to serve or worship me then its fine, i will carve out just asimple people for myself that will worship me. and God trying to get a pure people, took noah and destoryed the defected ones. after a while as men multiplied. yet people looked for ways or excuses not to server their maker. and what does he do to preserve his few?
He creates a virus to protect His own and says even my own that is found defected, kill. let me ask a simple question here, is it not good for you to go and buy honey from the store and put on your bread and when you apply it and have a taste of it you are satisfied? will you be go to a store twice to buy honey and find out that it was poison you were given instead of the honey you taught you took?
Fri Jun 07, 12:39:00 AM 2013 
 true identity said...
you see my friends since the day man choose do disobey God's first commandment. " thou shalt not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. the day thou eat of it thou shalt surely die", death has become inevitable and even Jesus had to die first and raise up from the grave bodily, so that He could prove to you that if you come back to God the great programmer, you will not perish. you may die in your body as a man, but you will live and have a better life and exist just like He is existing in glory. dying is not a problem, but where you will go after your body is wasted. lets take pity for those that God has killed, but will you say to yourself someday that, " this ground i am walking on is carrying too much load, i got a house on this land, a car, my family, maybe a farm, let me ease this land the burden and do something about it". what will you do then? my friends whether God kills or whatever kills, it wont stop until the earth is destoryed, be wise and go to the programmer that has a better space for you in His new Jerusalem. thanks
Fri Jun 07, 12:52:00 AM 2013 
 Stephen said...
Robert said...
"The god of NATURE kills every living thing. Is nature not the god of your world? Maybe there is a better universe within the multiverse? What if death is a doorway to another Universe?"
OK, Robert. Why does such an entity require my worship? What if death *is* a doorway to another universe, and what does that have to do with a god? Is it the gate-keeper? How do you know you have the right god?
@ True Identity: I normally don't pray, but in your case I will make an exception. I pray you start taking your meds again.
Steve Weeks
Wed Jun 12, 12:09:00 PM 2013 
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Sat Jun 15, 08:32:00 AM 2013 
 Robert said...
My point is that obviously none of us KNOW. In my opinion those who KNOW about God are the biggest fools of all, but I need to HOPE that there is something better than this world. I am sure that you will consider that a weakness but that does not bother me.
Sat Jun 15, 11:28:00 PM 2013 
 G.O.D. said...
The universe doesn't owe you anything, robbie. And surely you can find a better book of wisdom than one that says things like women should be forced to marry someone that raped them.
Mon Jun 24, 07:33:00 PM 2013 
 Createdforlove said...
Steve,
Apart from God you have no basis for considering human life as precious. If you're going to criticize God's actions as if you believe the Bible you also need to consider what the Bible says about Him and about our lives in regard to your 'unjust murder table'- God is the only just judge; no one judges God, no one is even capable of doing so. Second, He actually values humans so much that in eternity they continue their existence- either with Him (which all are invited through Jesus!) or in Hell. God does not destroy souls. He values us all so much, He sacrificed His own son in order to forgive us. Do you have a son? I do.
Things to think on.
Heidi
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Sun Jul 14, 03:15:00 PM 2013 
 Dave B said...
good work man, I keep referring Christians to this table when they say god is moral, just, loving blah blah blah... and every time they say nothing! at the end of the day without god this world is more beautiful because this so our only life (to our knowledge) so live it to your fullest.
Mon Jul 22, 07:07:00 PM 2013 
 Ron (aka RealityCheck) said...
Soooo, you don't believe in God but have a problem with Him killing people. How does that even make any sense? If He doesn't exist, then Who are you taking issue with? If He does exist, and I'm talking the God of the Bible, then who are you to question what He does with His creation? He made it, He can do what He wants with it. Bottom line, your site doesn't make any sense, it's silly. Do yourself a favor and stop running from the God you know exist. You're only fooling yourself and the clock is ticking.
Fri Jul 26, 01:30:00 AM 2013 
 ThinkingMom said...
Createdforlove,
Let me get this straight? God values us so very much that he created hell to banish his own valued creation there to be tortured for all eternity because he can't fathom destroying souls? I know for one, I would rather be taken out quickly instead of having to endure everlasting torment. Doesn't this strike you as a bit gratuitous, even egomaniacal?
Fri Jul 26, 01:40:00 PM 2013 
 marinus said...
Well you helped me with a little article I wrote. If I would have to find all the numbers by myself my Bible would have worn out by now. Thank you.
Wed Sep 11, 06:58:00 PM 2013 
 Pastor Alan said...
Why are you assuming "all" deaths are wicked or evil of God to perform?
When people just kill others is there not some justice that should be considered? Who should administer this justice?
If killing is always "evil" what do we say about the 56,941,825 abortions done by the USA people since 1973?
Seems it is easy to just "judge" God as evil while we are good. Hmmmm

Sun Dec 22, 04:54:00 AM 2013 
 Steve Wells said...
Pastor Alan,
Why not pick a killing, any killing, and show us why it was justified?
You believe that all of God's killings were justified, right? If so, it should be easy to show why it was a good thing for God to do. You can even do a guest post at my blog if you like.
So far no believer has been willing to defend God. Are you too embarrassed to give it a try?
Sun Dec 22, 12:02:00 PM 2013 
 Cloud Hermit said...
Hi, I just randomly came upon this site. I think Steve Wells is a very intelligent scholar-writer.
Same as Steve Wells, I have questions and my doubts about the Bible God...
1) How come the Almighty and Omnipotent God cannot prevent good Christians and young innocent good Christian kids from dying young, including from accidents and crimes, if He were so omnipotent, almighty, and powerful? (Newtown shooting, CT, US, Sandy Hook Elementary, 12/24/2012). How can I trust the Almighty and Omnipotent God to protect my young innocent children, my family, and my loved ones? Jesus and the Holy Spirit did not (decide to) stop or thwart the shooting deaths neither. Or maybe they are just not omnipotent, almighty, and all-powerful after-all, or maybe they just don't really care that much. They don't really care if your kids just die.
‎2) How come God just sits in heaven and enjoys paradise while all of us humans have to suffer the unjust and unfortunate miseries and sufferings of life? These sufferings are very real to us. A lot of good Christians die young in accidents and robberies. This God appears nonchalant, arrogant, and unjust. Was He bored or lonely? He created humans and doomed like half of them to hell. (The word "half" here is used figuratively speaking - a figure of speech - it is not used to refer to an exact quantity value but refer to the non-Christians).
3) Why do we have to pay for the sins of Adam and Eve; I didn't eat that apple? Where is the logic and fairness from God?
4) Why does God create people and then predestined some of them to hell to burn for eternity? Why did God create us in the first place? Well, He created us and let half of us doomed to hell by His predestination. When He created us, He already know we won't choose Him and will burn in Hell for eternity. What fun logic...? What a nice father... He created non-Christians just so He can watch creations be burnt in hell for eternity.
5) How come a law-abiding atheist or homosexual who lives a secular philanthropic and humanitarian life is condemned to hell if s/he does not accept Christ, while a prison inmate who had committed murders, killed cops, and raped many children (with lifelong PTS on the children) can still go to heaven by mere repentance at death-chair, however sincere the repentance was?
‎6) If God were so powerful, why does He allow all the natural disasters like the plagues (like the black death in the medieval times), earthquakes, tsunami's, Newtown shooting, etc., to occur, and so many innocent children died? How can I trust the Almighty and Omnipotent God to protect my children, my family, and my loved ones?
‎7) If God were perfect, why did he fail to create a better but defective angel Satan (the Devil) who has caused a lot of problems?
‎8) God cannot be said to be omnipotent if He cannot dictate humans' choices. If He can by predestination and divine force, how is that humans have free will? There is no logical answer to this Christian beliefs of free will and predestination that can make any logical sense. And why is God not intervening to save innocent children's deaths everyday around the world and in the third-world countries? If he intervenes where is the free will? If God is truly compassionate, why did He need to test men?

Sun Dec 22, 10:11:00 PM 2013 
 Cloud Hermit said...
9) If God is truly compassionate, why did He need to test men? If I were God, I would do everything to prevent men from falling into hell, whether they worship me or not. But no, God needs to be validated by His creation to fill his ego, his vanity, his void, his need. God needs to be worshipped, and Jesus needs to be validated as a "Saviour" or else He won't save you. What EGOS are these... How needy are these beings... So limited and conditional a religion. Isn't that kinda needy for a "God" and very demanding for a "Saviour" to ask of puny men? How is this God unconditional at all...? What about the phrase "unconditional love" that even ordinary humans can understand and do...?
10) Please don't give me the analogy of "God is the Father hence He knows better." Andrea Yates, Case Anthony, and many other "parents" made no sense and murdered their own children. What makes you think God is any better other than the indoctrination you lazily accept from church that God is the "perfect" parent, Creator. Who can prove that? Look at the mess on Earth. (Some says humans made the mess; oh well, God made the humans...)
11) It is shallow that a lot of Christians know nothing about other religions but label them as "Satanic" or false idol-worship. How can you review a novel if you have not read the novel. Similarly, how can a Christian judge other religions when s/he knows nothing in-depth about other religions? It is a sign of lack of education and of blind ignorance. These Christians are most annoying - not to mention I see statues of idols of Jesus and Mary everywhere. Isn't that idol-worshipping!?
12) Where did all the people before Christ go? Hell? The ancient civilizations of the Chinese, Aztecs, Indians, Native Americans, etc., for the history of mankind, all these and a lot of cultures and civilizations had not encountered Christ and millions and millions of them died. Are they in hell now since they did not proclaim Christ as the ONLY Savior?
13) Why did God create humans? Was He lonely? Half of His creation are damned to Hell to suffer real pain. He is not good with creating stuff. Just look at the mess on Earth; everyday massive people suffers agonies because God wants us to.
14) God created men in His image. Men are imperfect. God must also be imperfect. Also, if God is so perfect, why didn't he have the ability or wisdom to create more perfect or better men. The thought of a God creating men and then with no good sound fair reason make half of them to suffer hell-fire for eternity (God shouldn't have create in the first place) - the thought of such God watching half of his creation (-children-) suffering is just appalling. Also, Kids are born in third-world countries everyday and die from hunger everyday, and I don't see God do a thing about it. This God is supposedly merciful and compassionate; you must be kidding me?
Most Christians live in the lazy fallacious mind-set that "I am still alive hence God is good." Well, the good but dead Christians have no voice anymore to ask, "God I had been pure (I am a kid) why am I dead?"
15). How come God allowed Sandy Hook Elementary school shooting to happen on 12/24/2012 (Newtown, CT, USA)? If God were omnipotent, why did He not prevent it? If God is really almighty and all-powerful (omnipotent), why did He not stop the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting that took 20 children's lives (and 6 adult teaching staff)... He could easily prevented it if He were all-powerful, but He did not stop it. The children were young and innocent Christians from a Christian town of Christian families. God did not stop it. How can I or anyone trust God to protect our loved ones or my children.
In Bible, God killed so many children and infants.
In current times, God didn't care to stop but let Sandy Hook innocent children die. He is omnipotent yet He thinks those kids should just die.
What kind of a God is this?
Sun Dec 22, 10:17:00 PM 2013 
 Cloud Hermit said...
Why is it that there are so much confusion and contradictions in the Bible to make me have doubts? I think God wants me to burn in hell for eternity. God likes to watch people burn and die and not do a thing.
I heard somewhere saying that God is like a kid with an ant farm. He lights matches and burns ants for pure fun fancy.
I think I am one of them that when God created me, He already decided that I am going to burn in hell anyways when he made me. He wanted to watch me be an atheist and damned by Christians. Predestination and fate.
After all, God's probably bored in heaven watch people sing and dance, I mean, I would too. It's fun for Him to make some children to burn in hell, to watch people burn in hell, and not do a thing about it. God likes to watch his creation, his children burn. It is the ultimate show of "omnipotence" to see your own creation/children burn. This is called real power. Almost no one in this Earth has that kind of power.
Hold on... wait a minute, God sounds kinda like the Devil to me now...
Oh No! This is confusing. Bible, the Devil-Sadistic God.


Sun Dec 22, 10:23:00 PM 2013 
 Cloud Hermit said...
A lot of Christian scholars, pastors, and ministers write stuff to defend Christianity just so to keep their jobs so to keep the money keep coming in for themselves and their families and kids and don't really care about the truth, i.e., whether Christianity is really true or not.
They are already "sucked in" and stuck, can't find other jobs to making a living, and don't have time or too lazy to consider the other side's point.
They simply dismiss all opposition as "Satan's work."
And they never explained to me where was Jesus during his Lost Years? Supposedly, some source told me he travelled to India or countries in the East, met Buddhism, and adapt it to teach what he felt was best for the Jews that the Jews at that time can accept. In that sense, Jesus was actually a Buddhist.

Sun Dec 22, 10:32:00 PM 2013 
 Cloud Hermit said...
Quoted from another person:
"Probably the most convincing argument (wrt the fallacy of Christianity) is the amount of complete and utter nonsense in the Bible. If you mean any form of Christianity that argues that the Bible is the word of god, then why is the Bible filled with such complete nonsense and garbage?
And you can tell most Americans know this argument is devastating. After all, you can find people who believe that the Bible is the revealed word of a loving, all-powerful god, perfect in any way, and oh yeah, they haven't actually *read* it.
"Let a woman learn in silence with full submission. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she is to keep silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet she will be saved through childbearing, provided they continue in faith and love and holiness, with modesty."
Seriously, we are really supposed to believe that's the revealed word of a perfect god? And why does he mention slavery so many times without *once* mentioning that it's *wrong*? The worst evil in the history of humankind could have been avoided had god bothered to just once mention that it's bad."
Sun Dec 22, 10:50:00 PM 2013 
 Cloud Hermit said...
It is good that Steve Wells make this chart.
Even if he doesn't believe in the Bible god, we always need good vigilante, including religion vigilante, to tell us the TRUTH, and keep us informed with accurate information.
Just because he may not believe in the Bible god doesn't mean he cannot give scientific information to us, the atheists, agnostics, academic scholars, scientists, philosophers, and spiritual seekers.
Sun Dec 22, 11:10:00 PM 2013 
 riyadh hammadi said...
good job
Wed Dec 25, 09:49:00 PM 2013 
 Cloud Hermit said...
We know of IQ, EQ (emotion quotient), AQ (adversity quotient), and now I am coining SQ and RQ (spiritual and religion quotient).
With the amount of talents and minds in our country, I am shocked of our collective SQ and RQ. We are low in SQ and RQ.
After all, our forefathers told us to have separation of church and state, so our country don't turn into like a Christian nation, jeopardizing basic human rights and personal choices, technological advancement, and academic research, jeopardizing *free will*. Why the heck did we, our forefathers, fight for independence?
Let's cut to the point.
God decided the single most important decisive factor is -faith-.
We are talking about faith to God, to Christ, to Holy Spirit - one or a combination of the three. And for arguments' sake,
even faith to just one is enough.
We are smart Americans.
I will cut to the chase to talk about this Jew - Jesus.
If God has decided the decisive factor to heaven over hell is *goodness* or *kindness* or *self-sacrifice* - something like that...
I assure you, Christianity will spread all over the globe in less than a month, and will replace all other religions in no time to Asia and Middle East.
Well, for most Christians, we have an underlying deep fear of ending up in hell for not believing in God and Christ. I have that too, for my afterlife.
But I researched extensively of all religions and all philosophies of East and West and Middle.
Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, etc., gave me alternatives for afterlife.
For one. Buddha's requirement is not faith in him, but goodness.
Hinduism requirement is: devotion to virtues.
Taoism decisive factor: devotion to good character.
They have their fallacies, but extremely minuscule compared to Christianity.
In our Christian religious context, we are justified in a lot of things, in the name of saving souls, to preserve our religion, to preserve Christianity: violence, justified, slavery, justified, killings, justified, rape, justified, incest, justified, war, justified, screwing around in politics, justified.
But we missed out some key points.
The Bible written by men - the premise could be wrong.
The Jew could be wrong.
The Buddha, Krishna, Taoist Jade Emperor, all offer good eternal afterlives, comparable if not better than heaven.
Why should I pick a Jew over an Indian, or a Chinese? when the Indian and Chinese clicks with my forefathers' hidden ambitions for our country, and the betterment of the world!?
I know this is difficult to swallow. Trust me, I know how hard it is, of early childhood programming........

Tue Dec 31, 11:51:00 PM 2013 
 Kenny Stevens said...
Ok, this may have been discussed already, but this post was too long to read everything here....
I'm going to go through an exercise in "reasoning"... and hopefully ALL will understand:
1. If you don't believe in ANY God, then what is the point in continuing this argument? If you want to dissuade people from trying to do "good", then why would you want to undermine their faith in something? Do you REALLY think that with all the variations in people's opinions, (let alone their religious beliefs) that you are going to convince everyone in the world to believe exactly what you believe? Even if that were possible, our personality differences would undoubtedly create different points of view amongst those "believers"
2. IF God is real, and He is the end all-be all of everything, then we would have to measure up to HIS standards and not our own. I mean, even if you don't believe in any God, but let's say there WAS a real God (I don't care which religion you pick), but you were UN aware of Him, and that God was the creator and destroyer of everything, then who are you to question it? I'm just curious, because I don't know of any human who has supernatural power to make me do something I don't want to do. So if you were God and you decided to make laws that you could not break, would you, or wouldn't you follow those rules?
3. If God is real, then He would preserve the words in His bible so that it didn't get corrupted by men...
4. If God is real, and He says that our punishment for breaking one of His rules is death, then who are we to question Him? I mean, yeah you may think it's unfair, but if you are sitting in a court of law for breaking a law and committing a crime, then the judge sentences you for that crime, because you were found guilty of violating that law, who are you as the criminal to question your sentence by the judge?
5. God has said all have sinned and fall short of His glory (perfection) and that punishment is death.... how do you attack up on the most basic laws, the ten commandments?
-I am the Lord your God, you shall have no other Gods before me
-you shall not make for yourself any idols
-do not take the name of the Lord your God in vain
-remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy
-honour your father and you mother
-do not murder
-do not commit adultery
-do not steal
-do not lie
-do not covet
I don't know ANYONE who has ALWAYS been perfect towards their parents, and yet God says if you have been disobedient in ANY if these areas, then you have contacted the disease called "SIN".
So, if you have been found guilty of this "law" and the punishment is death, then who are you to question the judge?
Fortunately God DID GIVE US an option of believing in Him to be pardoned from this punishment by believing that Jesus Christ His only Son. That He died and paid for this punishment so WE WOULDN'T HAVE TO PAY IT OR SPEND ETERNITY DAMNED TO HELL.
If you don't believe, then that's your choice... but if you don't, then why spend all this time on something you don't believe in? Why not go do something great with your life instead of trying to convince other people of your thoughts? I mean, seriously, you look down on people who like to feed the hungry, or care for orphans just because they believe in a God that you don't? If you are all for humans loving other humans, then what does it matter under which "title"they do it under?
Sat Jan 18, 11:17:00 PM 2014 
 Sandra Ayers said...
AMEN, BROTHER WELLS!! ITS ABOUT TIME SOMEONE SPEAK THE TRUTH!!! GOD IS A MURDERER, AND THE WORST ONE AT THAT.
YOU ARE DOING SOMETHING GREAT WITH YOUR LIFE YOU ARE SPEAKING TRUTH, EVEN A TRUTH SO VILE THAT CHRISTIANS WANT TO TURN THE OTHER WAY RATHER THAN TO BELIEVE. I RESPECT YOU, STEVE. WE HAVE A SIMILAR LIFE MISSION HERE. I WAS RAISED IN HYPOCRISY, IN A CHRISTIAN CULT AND NOW I AM SPEAKING OUT. I HAVE A BOOK ON AMAZON KINDLE TITLED "99 THINGS SERIOUSLY WRONG WITH THE BIBLE", BY KATIE MYERS. ITS ONLY 99 CENTS, CUZ PEOPLE NEED THE TRUTH. CHECK IT OUT!! ITS REVEALING AND HILARIOUS.
AS FOR ALL YOU BIBLE THUMPERS, YOU BETTER BE ABSOLUTELY 100% SURE THAT GOD IS WHO HE SAYS HE IS BEFORE YOU PLACE YOUR SALVATION IN HIM. THATS PRETTY SCARY. I HOPE THAT HEAVEN IS NOTHING LIKE ALL THE WARS, MURDERS, RAPE AND KILLING THATS IN THE BIBLE!! I KNOW I SURE AS HELL DONT WANNA GO THERE!
AS FOR THIS LAST COMMENT, STEVE DOES NOT LOOK DOWN ON THOSE WHO HELP OTHERS, HE LOOKS DOWN ON THOSE WHO ARE TRYING TO SHOVE A MURDERER GOD DOWN EVERYBODY ELSE'S THROATS!
AND I HAVE A QUESTION FOR YOU? WHO DO YOU THINK MADE THIS WORLD AND IS ALLOWING ALL THESE KIDS TO BE ORPHANS IN THE FIRST PLACE? THATS RIGHT, GOD IS.
YOU SERVE THE VERY GOD WHO IS ALLOWING SIN AND AND THINGS TO CONTINUE. THAT MUST BE A TOUGH PILL TO SWALLOW.
CHRISTIANS, YOUR GOD WILL NOT GO UNCHALLENGED. YOU WANNA DOOM ME TO HELL? BRING IT ON!!! I WILL GLADLY GO AND YOU MAY WANNA MAKE SURE THAT I DONT BECAUSE WHEN I DO, HEAVEN'S IN DEEP TROUBLE!!
I STAND WITH STEVE!!
TRUTH REIGNS SUPREME
Tue Feb 04, 04:00:00 PM 2014 
 aNNi MaL said...
Firstly, in the Old Testament, God DID NOT write it, Moses wrote the first FIVE books in the Old testament.. GOD DID NOT WRITE THE BIBLE People who felt that God spoke to them felt the need to write the parts of the Bible.. IF I SAID TO YOU GOD HAS JUST SPOKEN TO ME ABOUT WRITING A GOSPEL OR A BOOK FOR THE OLD TESTAMENT WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO ME??? I AM SICK OF PEOPLE BLAMING GOD FOR WAR GENOCIDE .. IT IS MAN WHO HAS USED GOD AND RELIGION TO FUEL WAR ETC..IT IS MAN WHO WENT TO BATTLE LEADING THE ARMY BY A BANNER OF THE CROSS..MANKIND HAS ABUSED THE BIBLE IN ITS OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT.. QUIT BLAMING GOD YOU STUPID IGNORANT MAN.. MAYBE GO FIND ALL THE GOSPELS THAT HAVE BEEN WRITTEN BUT NEVER WILL BE PART OF THE BIBLE, IT DOESNT MEAN THEY ARE ANY LESS IMPORTANT.. EDUCATE UR ASS INSTEAD OF BLAMING GOD FOR EVERYTHING..WHAT A COP OUT!
Wed Feb 05, 01:20:00 AM 2014 
 andy76643421 said...
Hmmmm.... I'm a Christian and I believe in God. I think theat number is quite low actually. I'll explain:
It's estimated that there has been a total of 105 billion people that have EVER lived on the earth. Most of them have already died. Did you forget that YOU are going to die? And so am I? And everyone you know? AND... EVERYONE that lives on the earth! I guess that would make Him responsible for the death of at least 97 billion and counting!
Consider this though...If God does exist... and He is the Creator, the one in whom you "live and move and have your being"... if my heart beats at His very command... IF this is true... what makes me think that he is required to prolong my life even one more second longer than anyone else? Is it not His prerogative to give and take physical life when and as He chooses?
And if you judge this God's actions as moral or immoral - by what "objective" moral standard are you making this judgment? What objective standard are you appealing to? If He is God - wouldn't that make HIM the true judge... by default? It may not make you or I comfortable... but wouldn't this be an inescapable fact... if it were true?
If it's not true... then it's all fabricated anyway. Then there is nothing to worry about. However, if it is true... you and I and all of us will give account of our life to this God - whether we like it or not, whether we believe it or not, whether we agree with it or not.
If you don't believe... better make sure you are right. The stakes are high.
Mon Feb 10, 09:26:00 PM 2014 
 dutchlionfrans1953 said...
You judge from your limited observation. God's killings are actually acts of grace. If He had not killed all living creatures except Noah, the earth would have been hell, because of the hybrid- people - half fallen angel- half human being that satan had poluted and filled the earth with. KILLING THEM saved God's plan and the uncontaminated human race by one man: Noah. For only Noah was perfect in his generations - UNCONTAMINATED BY SATAN'S SEED!
And as Jesus foretold that the last days were going to be as the days of Noah - meaning: the human race would again be polluted - they are experimenting now with animal DNA in human bodies etc.
God had a choice: Either destroy the whole earth and everone, because satan had corrupted all living matter, including Noah and the animals God led to the Ark. Simply to start all over. He had done that once already: Because the earth was not made void when God created the heaven and the earth. NO IT BECAME VOID, when satan and 1/3 of the angels who followed the archangel Lucifer in his rebellion battled God's angels. The creation account from Genesis 1: 2c is actually a SECOND CREATION!
God - in His incredible grace did not want to kill the only perfect seed left (Gen. 6:9) - so He spared the earth and a sample of all animals for the sake of one man!
THIS IS GRACE! But you look at all the hybrid humans God killed. This killing does not make God cruel at all. But rather the very opposite of a cruel genocidal murdered. The bad guy was satan who contaminated all human seed.
The reason for satan doing this was the curse over him, the prophecy God had given Eve after sinning: "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." (Genesis 3:15)
Satan figured that the only way he could prevent this - his total destruction and defeat - from ever coming true was to prevent the developping of that seed! This is what he did by contaminated the human seed with his seed. God could never fulfill His plan of salvation, which this verse speaks of and is God's promise right after the all of men. That seed God promised in Genesis 3:15 is Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God!
So, you see God's grace in the absolute necessaity of killing all flesh with the exception of Noah!
As for the other killings by God, similar explanations can be given. God kills to redeem! God ALWAYS LOOKS AT THE BIGGER PICTURE, THE GREATER PURPOSE.
Satan murders out of hatred, as we were created in the image of God. Satan hates God and therefore satan hates us. He knows God loves us, so that murdering people is the way to hurt God.
I stand in awe of God, when I consider this! His infinite wisdom!
Knowing this, I consider all these accusations of people of God for His killings such folly. They have no idea. But they have such a big mouth...these created beings against their Maker!
Thu Feb 27, 05:27:00 PM 2014 
 dutchlionfrans1953 said...
In addition: God's grace is also visible in the fact that sin resulted in death! Sin brought death into the earth!
Death is an act of grace by God for if God had allowed men to live for ever, this earth would have been hell! It would have meant sin would be perpetual.
Thank God all men die since sin came into the world by Adam and Eve.
God's plan from the beginning was to create men to be with Him for ever! But since men chose to disobey Him, and sin - go their own way, do their own thing - God had to make the penalty of sin: DEATH! For He can not allow sin to exist for ever!
This proves God's unlimited wisdom, and also His LOVE!
On top of this: He provided the sacrifice in His very own only begotten Son of God to die for us, paying the penalty for our sin, so by His resurrection from the dead, He overcame death and opened the way for us to be reconciled with God, to be forgiven and to be free from the penalty of sin, the second death (Rev. 21:8) and live with Him for ever, as He had intended from the beginning! All we have to do now I call upon Him, repent of our sins, our unbelief, our rejection of Him, our going our own way, and ask His forgiveness and that He makes us His child, lets us be born -again, and destroys the plan of satan with our lives and releases His plan for our lives, and teaches us to walk with Him, commune with Him - for He is not dead, but He is alive and wants to have fellowship with us. For ever! John 1:12,13; John 3. John 14:6. Acts 2:38; Acts 4:12. 2 Corinthians 5: 17; Galations 6:15; etc.
Thu Feb 27, 05:41:00 PM 2014 
 fluffypeanutcat said...
@dutchlion**** Hybrid Humans??? Are we talking Neanderthals who lived 40,000 to 350,000 years ago?
What is a begotten son? Is it more special than a created son? A created son that can produce a female from a rib?
I believe Jesus was indeed special. Maybe enlighted enough to try to put some form of compassion to an Old Testament religion that promoted atrocities of all kinds including mass genocide. Of course some of these Canaanites were sacrificing children to "false" Gods. But the Hebrews were of course okay to put all to the sword including these same toddlers and babies. In some cases where they forgot/disobeyed and brought back the woman and childrens alive, god scolded them but relented and let them keep the female virgins. However making sure all the females who had sexual relations (how did they determine?) and male babies were of course liquidated. GENOCIDE!!!
What does it mean that God sacrificed Jesus if Jesus is now in heaven and sits at the right hand of God? Would it be more correct to say that God sacrificed Judas as Judas evidently was needed in God's plan also. He of course turned Jesus in to the Roman authorities and then showed such guilt and remorse that he hanged himself. He most certainly died in mental anguish and supposedly sacrificed to spend eternity in hell.
It is all a great mystery but what you have put forth makes no sense.
Sat Mar 01, 10:32:00 PM 2014 
 ken vohs said...
are jesus and mohammed still going up? how far are they now? were they going toward the milky way or away from it? there were a lot of other gods that went up, too. I wonder how far they got or who is in the lead?
Mon Mar 17, 06:06:00 PM 2014 
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 24 June 2013Can I get an Amen for Jerry DeWitt?
Last October, I was lucky enough to hear Jerry DeWitt speak (preach, actually) at the Freedom From Religion Foundation convention in Porland , Oregon. Iit was an experience I'll never forget. If he'd had an altar call, I'd have gone up.
We need more of this. We need more atheist preachers!
Yesterday, Jerry delivered a sermon at the first "full-fledged atheist church" in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. There are youtube videos (part 1 and part 2), but the quality is a bit too poor to get full effect of his preaching.
So here's Jerry's Easter sermon at the American Atheist convention instead. Enjoy!
 

BTW, I pre-ordered Jerry's new book (Hope after Faith) and I was told yesterday that it has shipped. As soon as I get it I'm going read it. And when I do, I'll let you know what I think.
 But don't wait for that. Buy it now. You can have faith in Jerry!

Posted by Steve Wells at 6/24/2013 08:53:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:  
3 comments:
 Stephen said...
You got it, Brother!
rA-Men!
I got a Nook for father's day... maybe i'll populate it with books like this.
Steve Weeks
Mon Jun 24, 07:21:00 PM 2013 
 bittersweetend said...
that is an awesome video....Can I get a DARWIN!!!!
Wed Jun 26, 03:50:00 PM 2013 
 M. Wm. "Pat" Ferguson said...
Link doesn't open for me. When I click the play arrow, an "error occurred" message pops up. And nothing happens when I click on the link in the upper-left corner of the video viewing window. Bummer!
Thu Jun 27, 09:42:00 AM 2013 
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 21 June 2013Douglas Wilson: Casting the first (and only) stone
Poor Doug Wilson. He has no one to throw stones with anymore.
Here is what he said in a recent post about the Exodus International affair.
I need to say a quick something about Exodus International shutting down, as they did so with apologies extended to gays and lesbians who had been harmed by their reparative therapy.
Here is how one news story put it:
“Exodus is an institution in the conservative Christian world, but we’ve ceased to be a living, breathing organism,” Alan Chambers, president of Exodus, said in a statement. “For quite some time we’ve been imprisoned in a worldview that’s neither honoring toward our fellow human beings, nor biblical.”
I want first to note the obvious thing about this ... this is a capitulation, a collapse, an apostasy, a travesty, and a moon crater. This is an instance of an organization that existed to call men and women to biblical repentance, and has wound up repenting of their belief in the need for any such repentance. So here is the first lesson — never repent of repenting. Bad idea.
...
In my mind’s eye, I can see when Lot was leaving Sodom, how there was a group of men at the city limits laughing at him. “You know,” they said, “you’re on the wrong side of history.” Lot’s wife nodded slightly, wishing she had married that Chambers fellow instead.
And here's my comment on his blog:
Yes, you’re pretty much all alone now, Douglas. No one else is willing to apply the biblical law to homosexuals.
It didn’t use to be that way though. Not too long ago that verse was loudly and unashamedly proclaimed at Credenda Agenda [produced by Pastor Wilson's church]. Here, for example, is a quote from Magestralis. (Your Eye Shall Not Pity, Greg Dickison, 1999, Vol. 3)
“Capital crimes, for example, include premeditated killing (murder), kidnapping, sorcery, bestiality, adultery, homosexuality, and cursing one’s parents (Ex. 21:14; 21:16;22:18;22:19; Lev. 20:10; 20:13; Ex. 21:17).”
But you have to go to the wayback machine to find quotes like that anymore. No one is willing to even say aloud the words of Leviticus 20:13.
I guess it’s up to you to throw the first (and only) stone.
I haven't yet got a response from Mr. Wilson. But if I do, I'll let you know what he says.
Posted by Steve Wells at 6/21/2013 11:09:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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7 comments:
 Stephen said...
I hope you aren't holding your breath, Steve! But if he *does* get back to you, ask him about Lot.
I want to know if, as he was leaving town, he had any idea that he soon wouldn't be sticking it to the old salt shaker, but into two hot young things... his daughters!
Family values there!
Steve Weeks
Fri Jun 21, 12:40:00 PM 2013 
 Steve Wells said...
Good point, Steve. But someone else (Marinus C) beat me to it. Here's an excerpt.
"And after God was done destroying Sodom and his perverted inhabitants, Lot and his daughters got really drunk and had sex together. God has an eye for recognizing healthy sexuality."


Fri Jun 21, 12:59:00 PM 2013 
 Stephen said...
Steve, you're doing a great job on the linked site (Wilson's blog). It's to his credit that your posts remain, I must say. I must also say that there are some scary people posting there.
Steve Weeks
Fri Jun 21, 12:59:00 PM 2013 
 Steve Wells said...
Thanks, Steve. I was also a bit surprised that my comments were posted. But Doug has always allowed me to comment. Maybe it's because we're neighbors here in Moscow.
You should go over there and participate as well. I could use all the help I can get.
Fri Jun 21, 01:07:00 PM 2013 
 Stephen said...
I just posted the following over there. Let's see if it survives mediation!
I copied this from one of your linked sites, Steve:
“The civil magistrate is the minister of God to execute wrath on the wrongdoer (Rom. 13:4). God has not left his civil minister without guidance on how to exercise his office. The Scriptures set forth clear standards of judgment for many offenses.”
Now, since we know that the bible was written by men, what does this sound like? Does it sound like the way a supposedly omnipotent god would take care of business? Or does it sound like something a man wrote to justify his own wish to effect punishment of those he felt were violating god’s made-up-by-men “laws”?
If this supposed god had any guts (the courage of his convictions), he would punish these transgressions directly, in a “surgical drone strike” manner. How would a Bronze Age goat herder punish these “crimes”? Just the way they are recommended in the bible… by localized, simple (crude), mechanical violence.
Another good example is the “flood”, in which god supposedly killed almost every living thing on earth- including untold thousands (conservatively) of pregnant women. An all-powerful god would have (reasonably) spared the un-born and selectively targeted the sinners; he did it in Egypt. Of course, in Egypt an all-knowing god would have known which houses to spare; a Bronze-Age goat herder would have thought it was pretty clever to splash a little blood on a few doors.
Everything about crime and punishment in the old testament has the fingerprints of Bronze-Age, goat-herding men on it.
@ Luke B. and Matthias: Morality is an evolved characteristic of humans. It is also observable in non-human primates and even non-mammalian species. There is an obvious survival advantage to most moral behavior, especially among social animals like the apes (including humans; we are risen apes, not fallen angels).
Oh, sorry… you probably don’t accept evolution as an explanation for the way the world looks today, even though the evidence for it is virtually bullet-proof. You really should read more than just one book!
Steve

Fri Jun 21, 02:32:00 PM 2013 
 Christian said...
Idiots will remain as the views of the world changes. And all these idiots will be holding on firmly to their theistic beliefs.
Wed Jun 26, 05:34:00 PM 2013 
 pi said...
Thanks Steve, I followed the link you gave of Marinus C's comment, those are some sound arguments you made there, I would like some of you here to take a look at what Seamus Riley is saying at this site:
http://www.christiandoubt.com/resources/christian-vs-atheist-debates/
Sun Jun 30, 06:26:00 AM 2013 
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 21 June 2013Douglas Wilson: Casting the first (and only) stone
Poor Doug Wilson. He has no one to throw stones with anymore.
Here is what he said in a recent post about the Exodus International affair.
I need to say a quick something about Exodus International shutting down, as they did so with apologies extended to gays and lesbians who had been harmed by their reparative therapy.
Here is how one news story put it:
“Exodus is an institution in the conservative Christian world, but we’ve ceased to be a living, breathing organism,” Alan Chambers, president of Exodus, said in a statement. “For quite some time we’ve been imprisoned in a worldview that’s neither honoring toward our fellow human beings, nor biblical.”
I want first to note the obvious thing about this ... this is a capitulation, a collapse, an apostasy, a travesty, and a moon crater. This is an instance of an organization that existed to call men and women to biblical repentance, and has wound up repenting of their belief in the need for any such repentance. So here is the first lesson — never repent of repenting. Bad idea.
...
In my mind’s eye, I can see when Lot was leaving Sodom, how there was a group of men at the city limits laughing at him. “You know,” they said, “you’re on the wrong side of history.” Lot’s wife nodded slightly, wishing she had married that Chambers fellow instead.
And here's my comment on his blog:
Yes, you’re pretty much all alone now, Douglas. No one else is willing to apply the biblical law to homosexuals.
It didn’t use to be that way though. Not too long ago that verse was loudly and unashamedly proclaimed at Credenda Agenda [produced by Pastor Wilson's church]. Here, for example, is a quote from Magestralis. (Your Eye Shall Not Pity, Greg Dickison, 1999, Vol. 3)
“Capital crimes, for example, include premeditated killing (murder), kidnapping, sorcery, bestiality, adultery, homosexuality, and cursing one’s parents (Ex. 21:14; 21:16;22:18;22:19; Lev. 20:10; 20:13; Ex. 21:17).”
But you have to go to the wayback machine to find quotes like that anymore. No one is willing to even say aloud the words of Leviticus 20:13.
I guess it’s up to you to throw the first (and only) stone.
I haven't yet got a response from Mr. Wilson. But if I do, I'll let you know what he says.
Posted by Steve Wells at 6/21/2013 11:09:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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7 comments:
 Stephen said...
I hope you aren't holding your breath, Steve! But if he *does* get back to you, ask him about Lot.
I want to know if, as he was leaving town, he had any idea that he soon wouldn't be sticking it to the old salt shaker, but into two hot young things... his daughters!
Family values there!
Steve Weeks
Fri Jun 21, 12:40:00 PM 2013 
 Steve Wells said...
Good point, Steve. But someone else (Marinus C) beat me to it. Here's an excerpt.
"And after God was done destroying Sodom and his perverted inhabitants, Lot and his daughters got really drunk and had sex together. God has an eye for recognizing healthy sexuality."


Fri Jun 21, 12:59:00 PM 2013 
 Stephen said...
Steve, you're doing a great job on the linked site (Wilson's blog). It's to his credit that your posts remain, I must say. I must also say that there are some scary people posting there.
Steve Weeks
Fri Jun 21, 12:59:00 PM 2013 
 Steve Wells said...
Thanks, Steve. I was also a bit surprised that my comments were posted. But Doug has always allowed me to comment. Maybe it's because we're neighbors here in Moscow.
You should go over there and participate as well. I could use all the help I can get.
Fri Jun 21, 01:07:00 PM 2013 
 Stephen said...
I just posted the following over there. Let's see if it survives mediation!
I copied this from one of your linked sites, Steve:
“The civil magistrate is the minister of God to execute wrath on the wrongdoer (Rom. 13:4). God has not left his civil minister without guidance on how to exercise his office. The Scriptures set forth clear standards of judgment for many offenses.”
Now, since we know that the bible was written by men, what does this sound like? Does it sound like the way a supposedly omnipotent god would take care of business? Or does it sound like something a man wrote to justify his own wish to effect punishment of those he felt were violating god’s made-up-by-men “laws”?
If this supposed god had any guts (the courage of his convictions), he would punish these transgressions directly, in a “surgical drone strike” manner. How would a Bronze Age goat herder punish these “crimes”? Just the way they are recommended in the bible… by localized, simple (crude), mechanical violence.
Another good example is the “flood”, in which god supposedly killed almost every living thing on earth- including untold thousands (conservatively) of pregnant women. An all-powerful god would have (reasonably) spared the un-born and selectively targeted the sinners; he did it in Egypt. Of course, in Egypt an all-knowing god would have known which houses to spare; a Bronze-Age goat herder would have thought it was pretty clever to splash a little blood on a few doors.
Everything about crime and punishment in the old testament has the fingerprints of Bronze-Age, goat-herding men on it.
@ Luke B. and Matthias: Morality is an evolved characteristic of humans. It is also observable in non-human primates and even non-mammalian species. There is an obvious survival advantage to most moral behavior, especially among social animals like the apes (including humans; we are risen apes, not fallen angels).
Oh, sorry… you probably don’t accept evolution as an explanation for the way the world looks today, even though the evidence for it is virtually bullet-proof. You really should read more than just one book!
Steve

Fri Jun 21, 02:32:00 PM 2013 
 Christian said...
Idiots will remain as the views of the world changes. And all these idiots will be holding on firmly to their theistic beliefs.
Wed Jun 26, 05:34:00 PM 2013 
 pi said...
Thanks Steve, I followed the link you gave of Marinus C's comment, those are some sound arguments you made there, I would like some of you here to take a look at what Seamus Riley is saying at this site:
http://www.christiandoubt.com/resources/christian-vs-atheist-debates/
Sun Jun 30, 06:26:00 AM 2013 
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 21 June 2013Mr. Deity and the Flood
Absurdification is the bedrock upon which faith is built.
Posted by Steve Wells at 6/21/2013 07:52:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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1 comment:
 Christian said...
So hang on does this mean we actually have to have fact for our fiction. ;)
Mon Jun 24, 11:23:00 PM 2013 
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 18 June 2013Glenn Beck cites Moroni 9 saying, "If you ever hear me mention the Book of Mormon on the air, we are at the end."

I happen to believe in another book, called the Book of Mormon, and in it at the very end, it is a story about the Americas, and it's only a story of "Watch for these things." It is really a calendar. That's all it is, a calendar. "Watch for these things and you will know what season you're in.
Towards the very end, one of the last books, it talks about, everything is to repeat itself,  how the enemies that they were up against at that time were into cannibalism. And they were eating people as a sign of bravery and courage. And when I saw the video of, two videos, one in Russia, where the Russian rebels are eating people, the Russian drug lords are actually eating their enemies.
Now who is tied to the Russians?  The Russians are tied to the same people in Syria. And we are also tying ourselves to the other side in Syria. And I saw the video of a soldier in the groups that we are arming stand on the battlefield and cut the chest open and take a heart, a beating heart, out of a dead body--cut him open and cut it out and eat it, and use it as courage, I thought to myself I know this calendar, I've seen this movie before.
I warn you, we are in very dangerous times. We are living in biblical times.
I told my staff a long time ago, when you hear me start talking about God, you'll know we're in a different DEFCON level. When you start hearing me use the words "Jesus Christ" on the air--because I know what it does to my popularity. I know what it does. And I know how it makes you into a crazy Christian kook. And I said we will be in a much different DEFCON level when I start saying "Jesus Christ" and quoting the Bible.
If you ever hear me mention the Book of Mormon on the air, we are at the end. And I am sorry to say that I feel we are now at the place to where you better have your house in order.
So get your house in order because Glenn Beck mentioned the Book of Mormon on the air!
But when Glenn Beck watched the cannibal videos, what Book of Mormon passage did it bring to his fervid mind? What was the movie that he had seen before? What day is it now on the Book of Mormon calendar? And what DEFCON level are we now living in?
It's all there in Moroni 9, the penultimate chapter of the last book of the Book of Mormon.
They feed the women upon the flesh of their husbands, and the children upon the flesh of their fathers...
And notwithstanding this great abomination of the Lamanites, it doth not exceed that of our people in Moriantum. For behold, many of the daughters of the Lamanites have they taken prisoners; and after depriving them of that which was most dear and precious above all things, which is chastity and virtue --
And after they had done this thing, they did murder them in a most cruel manner, torturing their bodies even unto death; and after they have done this, they devour their flesh like unto wild beasts, because of the hardness of their hearts; and they do it for a token of bravery. Moroni 9:8-10
The Lamanites killed and ate the Nephites. And the Nephites deprived the Lamanite women of "that which is most dear and precious above all things" (their virginity).
Don't you see? Everything repeats itself in the Book of Mormon. It's a calendar, just like Glenn Beck said.
The Russian rebels and the Syrian rebels are cannibals (Glenn Beck watched the movies), just like (well, sort of like, anyway) the Lamanites and the Nephites in the Book of Mormon.
So now you know. It's DEFCON 1 (nuclear war is imminent) and we're living in biblical (and Book of Mormon) times.
Today is Moroni 9 on Glenn Beck's calendar and tomorrow is Jeremiah 19:9.



Posted by Steve Wells at 6/18/2013 10:08:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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4 comments:
 v1car said...
Look on the bright side; maybe he meant "we" meaning his broadcasting team, and they're about to take his show off the air. That would be cause for celebration!
Incidentally, didn't he say last week he had some kind of big revelation which was going to bring down the government for his next show? I remember seeing people talk about it. I'm guessing there wasn't really anything as a follow-up.
Tue Jun 18, 11:45:00 AM 2013 
 Unknown said...
We lived tru several earlier world endings so I guess we'll survive this one too.........
Wed Jun 19, 02:09:00 AM 2013 
 Stephen said...
He doesn't call himself a mormon for nothing. Oh... I forgot: the second "m" is silent.
Steve Weeks
Thu Jun 20, 07:59:00 PM 2013 
 Christian said...
Idiot Beck says these thing every single week. No surprise there.
Thu Jun 20, 10:02:00 PM 2013 
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