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 24 May 2010Drunk With Blood: It's one of God's favorite expressions
I titled my list of God's killings "Drunk with Blood" for a reason. I think the phrase describes the God of the Bible perfectly.
It's also one of God's favorite expressions. The phrase "drunk with blood" (or variants of it) is used five times in the Bible.
God first uses it to describe himself: his arrows are drunk with blood.
I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh. Deuteronomy 32.42
Now I know that God doesn’t mean this literally. God’s arrows don’t have mouths; they don’t drink blood and they’ve never been drunk on anything. His sword doesn’t eat flesh either. God is being metaphorical here.
Still, God is trying to make a point. He’s saying that he kills people. Lots and lots of people. 2,476,633 if you don't try to estimate the number, 24,644,205 if you do.

The next use of "drunk with blood" is similar. God’s sword is drunk with blood, too, just like his arrows.
This is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood. Jeremiah 46.10
But God’s sword is not just drunk with blood, it's also filled and bathed with blood in heaven. (Who knew God would have a bloody sword in heaven?)
My sword shall be bathed in heaven. Isaiah 34.5
The sword of the LORD is filled with blood. Isaiah 34.6
And he's dying to use it on pretty much everyone on earth.
By his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many. Isaiah 66.16
The sword of the LORD shall devour from the one end of the land even to the other end of the land: no flesh shall have peace. Jeremiah 12.12
I … will draw forth my sword out of his sheath, and will cut off from thee the righteous and the wicked. Ezekiel 21.3
My sword go forth out of his sheath against all flesh. Ezekiel 21.4
I will bring a sword upon thee, and cut off man and beast out of thee. Ezekiel 29.8
I shall brandish my sword before them; and they shall tremble at every moment, every man for his own life. Ezekiel 32.10
Your young men have I slain with the sword … and I have made the stink of your camps to come up unto your nostrils. Amos 4.10
I [Jesus] will … fight against them with the sword of my mouth. Revelation 2.16
Another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword. Revelation 6.4
God is as strong as a unicorn. (Heck, I bet he's even stronger than a unicorn.) He’ll break your bones and pierce your body with arrows.
God ... hath ... the strength of an unicorn: he shall eat up the nations his enemies, and shall break their bones, and pierce them through with his arrows. Numbers 24.8
I will spend mine arrows upon them. Deuteronomy 32.23
God is angry with people every day. His sword is wet and his bow is bent. He has prepared all the instruments of death.
God is angry with the wicked every day … he will whet his sword; he hath bent his bow, and made it ready. He hath also prepared for him the instruments of death. Psalm 7.11-13
Even his clothes are sprinkled with the blood of his victims. (I don’t know whether his clothes are really dripping with blood in heaven. I don’t even know if he wears clothes. I’m just telling you what the Bible says.)
I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment. Isaiah 63.3
But God’s sword and arrows won’t be the only things drunk with blood. God also plans to force people (before he kills them) to eat their own flesh and get drunk on their own blood.
I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine. Isaiah 49.26
I’m not sure how much of this is metaphor. God often talks about forcing people to eat other people. That part, at least, is literal. Here are a few examples.
Forcing people to eat themselves.
And he shall snatch on the right hand, and be hungry; and he shall eat on the left hand, and they shall not be satisfied: they shall eat every man the flesh of his own arm. Isaiah 9.20
Forcing parents to eat their children and friends to eat each other.
Ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat. Leviticus 26.29
Thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters. Deuteronomy 28.53
The tender and delicate woman among you, which would not adventure to set the sole of her foot upon the ground for delicateness and tenderness, her eye shall be evil toward the husband of her bosom, and toward her son, and toward her daughter, And toward her young one that cometh out from between her feet, and toward her children which she shall bear: for she shall eat them. Deuteronomy 28.56-57
I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend. Jeremiah 19.9 The hands of the pitiful women have sodden their own children: they were their meat. Lamentations 4.10
The fathers shall eat the sons in the midst of thee, and the sons shall eat their fathers. Ezekiel 5.10
Let the rest eat every one the flesh of another. Zechariah 11.9
So while it is true that part of God’s plan for humanity is forcing people to eat each other, he was probably just getting carried away with his own metaphor when he said they’d get drunk on their own blood.
Oh, one more thing that believers should know. God wants them to keep their swords bloody, too. He’ll curse (and probably kill) anyone whose sword isn’t dripping with blood.
Cursed be he that doeth the work of the LORD deceitfully, and cursed be he that keepeth back his sword from blood. Jeremiah 48.10
Every man's sword shall be against his brother. Ezekiel 38.21
After God kills people, he will feed their bodies to the birds and beasts until they, too, become drunk with blood.
Thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood. Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth … And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you. Ezekiel 39.17-19
God talks a lot about feeding dead people to birds and animals. Here are some examples.
Thy carcase shall be meat unto all fowls of the air, and unto the beasts of the earth, and no man shall fray them away. Deuteronomy 28.26
The carcases of this people shall be meat for the fowls of the heaven, and for the beasts of the earth; and none shall fray them away. Jeremiah 7.33
Come ye, assemble all the beasts of the field, come to devour. Jeremiah 12.9
Their carcases shall be meat for the fowls of heaven, and for the beasts of the earth. Jeremiah 16.4
Their carcases will I give to be meat for the fowls of the heaven, and for the beasts of the earth. Jeremiah 19.7
Their dead bodies shall be for meat unto the fowls of the heaven, and to the beasts of the earth. Jeremiah 34.20
I have given thee for meat to the beasts of the field and to the fowls of the heaven. Ezekiel 29.5
I will cast thee forth upon the open field, and will cause all the fowls of the heaven to remain upon thee, and I will fill the beasts of the whole earth with thee. Ezekiel 32.4
I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured. Ezekiel 39.4
Thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. Revelation 16.6
Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God. … And all the fowls were filled with their flesh. Revelation 19.17-21
Someday believers will get into the act, too. Heck, they’re even going to get to drink the blood of God’s victims after they wash their feet in it.
The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked. Psalm 58.10
God shall wound the head of his enemies … that thy foot may be dipped in the blood of thine enemies, and the tongue of thy dogs in the same. Psalm 68.21-23
The people shall rise up as a great lion, and lift up himself as a young lion: he shall not lie down until he eat of the prey, and drink the blood of the slain. Numbers 23.24
And believers must drink the blood of Jesus if they want to get to heaven.
Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:53-54
And finally, the great whore of Babylon will be drunk with the blood of the saints and martyrs.
I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. Revelation 17.6
Posted by Steve Wells at 5/24/2010 08:12:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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48 comments:
 Daystar said...
By making his arrows, drunk with blood and his sword devouring flesh God indicates that God will destroy those who destroy. In one form or another the people who God destroys are bent upon the destruction of his purpose. As Sovereign Lord and Creator he has that right, and in fact, it may be said that he has that responsibility.
If some uninformed Christian is reading about God killing people they may very well ask themselves "Why all of the killing?" The informed student of the Bible will ask the same. The difference is that the later will try and discover the answer to the question whereas the former will become an uninformed atheist.
Upon discovering the reason behind the killing the informed Bible student comes to the conclusion that it is unfortunate that God had to kill all of these people, but at the same time is grateful that he will destroy those that destroy.
Look around you. You see those destroying? As Malachi 3:1-5 says, they are the sorcerers, adulterers, false swearers, those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not Jehovah God.
Mon May 24, 10:47:00 AM 2010 
 TaoCat said...
Daystar, wow...so god created everything, made the rules, and now reluctantly has to kill a bunch of people because he's pissed-off? So if one fails to properly grovel before this loving god, it's sword time?
“Look around you. You see those destroying? As Malachi 3:1-5 says, they are the sorcerers, adulterers, false swearers, those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not Jehovah God."
The widow and the fatherless too? What a heck of a guy this is. Not that he's reveling in the killing either, oh no. It doesn't sound like that at all...and false swearing and adulterers, they need the ol' sword for sure. No stiff warning. Sorcerers....I have yet to meet one. You may find that rational people don't believe in sorcery outside of Dungeons and Dragons. Just sayin'.
Again, the classic argument of the faithful- "He beats us because he loves us." I can see why "god is love."
Mon May 24, 11:33:00 AM 2010 
 Demarlos said...
It doesn't take an uninformed atheist to realize that regardless of rights, the god of this unholy book is a god of war. Sure, let's justify the killings of so many people through hellfire, stones, disease, filth, leprosy, and... the great flood?
Yeah. The great flood. Who wants to justify that one? 8 (or in some arguments, 11) people were all that were on the ark. The rest of the unfortunate world was drowned, including animals and insects. Apparently this was the best that god could come up with, and even after the flood, god suddenly realized, 'D'oh! Humanity is evil from youth!' If god truly was perfect and benevolent, he could have found another way. As it is, all of these killings and dumbass attacks this deity constantly has just goes to show that he's both morally and intellectually bankrupt.
Mon May 24, 12:14:00 PM 2010 
 busterggi said...
Davey, Davey, Davey, why not just admit your god is a mean drunk?
Mon May 24, 12:58:00 PM 2010 
 Maybe said...
Daystar, isn't a large portion of this blog describing just the opposite? In many cases, the almost twenty-five million God has been so far estimated to have killed are not the "destroyers" at all, but innocent. Those that hardly deserved to be massacred.
Mon May 24, 01:59:00 PM 2010 
 Matthew Blanchette said...
Awww, let him be, Maybe; he's constructed his own little Bible out of whole cloth, and he doesn't want anyone to puncture his little balloon of faith, now...
Notice, again, that he uses a translation that states "Jehovah God"; this is a mistranslation from the KJV, and so should not be regarded (by Daystar, and so many others) as "divine".
Hmmmm, I wonder if the rest of the book is as divine as it claims to be? ;-)
Mon May 24, 10:55:00 PM 2010 
 twillight said...
Steve,
Yahve is only as strong as a unicorn. We can see this from the two comparsion:
- unicorns do not exist. Elohim doesn't exist. A nonexistant being, anything it is, has as much power amongst the existing things as any other.
- The Lord of Hosts is mythologically omnipotent. The Invisible Pink Unicorn is mythologically omnipotent. As they are both the Sole Creator of the Universe (besides The Flying Spagetthi Monster, Brahma and more), we can see their power matches.
See, Biblegod is rly just as strong as a unicorn, no doubt there.
Tue May 25, 12:42:00 AM 2010 
 Daystar said...
TaoCat,
God created the earth for man to enjoy, with the stipulation that man needed the guidance and protection of the Creator. The tree of the knowledge of what is good and what is bad represented Jehovah's sovereignty.
When man rejected that God stepped aside so man could address that issue. Can man rule the earth under the influence of Satan, who deceived Eve, or would he destroy life on Earth?
God doesn't kill people just because they piss him off and he doesn't need anyone to grovel before him.
"The widow and the fatherless too?"
Read the text again. God is against those who cheat the worker from his wages and mistreats the widow and orphan.
"...and false swearing and adulterers, they need the ol' sword for sure. No stiff warning."
There has been plenty of warning, and they do need the sword because the corruption they promote leads to a destruction of they way things should be. It spreads. It gets worse over time.
"Sorcerers....I have yet to meet one. You may find that rational people don't believe in sorcery outside of Dungeons and Dragons. Just saying'."
Look around you. Young people don't believe in Harry Potter, but given the choice of understanding the prospect of everlasting life would seem boring to them over "good" magic. How many people believe in astrology? Not so much believe in it as are mislead by it.
Tue May 25, 07:15:00 AM 2010 
 Daystar said...
Demarlos,
Hellfire? Its an unscriptural pagan myth.
The flood? Through a close examination of the Scripture and Bible chronology one can determine that it took Noah and his sons about 50 years to complete the ark. During that time Noah preached the coming of the flood and invited anyone who wanted to come with them and they laughed at them.
Is it, then, not surprising that you would do the same? See, none of this makes any sense to me. You would criticize God for sending people to burn forever in hell, which he doesn't, then hold it against him for preserving life in the face of the destruction of the Nephilim, as well as overlook the fact that he warned the people against the flood and was ignored while you would repeat the same if I should warn you against the coming destruction AND you would blame it all on a God you don't believe exists.
Me thinks you protest too much.
Tue May 25, 07:28:00 AM 2010 
 Daystar said...
Maybe said...
"Daystar, isn't a large portion of this blog describing just the opposite? In many cases, the almost twenty-five million God has been so far estimated to have killed are not the "destroyers" at all, but innocent. Those that hardly deserved to be massacred."
Give me one example.
Tue May 25, 07:30:00 AM 2010 
 Daystar said...
Oh, Twillight, you still crack me up!
Tue May 25, 07:32:00 AM 2010 
 Daystar said...
Matthew: "Notice, again, that he uses a translation that states "Jehovah God"; this is a mistranslation from the KJV, and so should not be regarded (by Daystar, and so many others) as "divine"."
I have already corrected you elsewhere on the point of Jehovah being a mistranslation, but tell me what basis is there for that being the case, and while you are at it also tell me what you think the word "divine" means, if you would be so kind, please?
Tue May 25, 07:35:00 AM 2010 
 TaoCat said...
Daystar, you may argue all you like. You may even believe you are clever. It doesn't matter how you slice it, the god portrayed by the bible (heh, I initially mistyped it as "bile") is insanely cruel, and stupid as well.
"Mankind not behaving well, and then I gotta kill 'em? Geeze, who woulda seen that coming?" Says god, wiping a sizable river of drool away from his chin. "Not that I wanna kill 'em, and then get drunk with their blood. I's just that a god's gotta do what a god's gotta do" *hiccup*
Tue May 25, 03:44:00 PM 2010 
 Maybe said...
An example? Sure. http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2009/11/massacre-of-peaceful-unsuspecting.html
Seems pretty cut and dry. And how about the story of Passover? The mass killing of Egyptian firstborns? How can that be defended?
Tue May 25, 06:20:00 PM 2010 
 Daystar said...
TaoCat,
The issue isn't about God or the Bible and it isn't about how clever I am. It isn't about how cruel God is or how many people he killed, whether you think God is fictional or real.
It is about the social and political frustration or an increasingly vocal minority or atheists in a theocratic society.
Until you address those issues the rest of it is just nonsense. The primary concern is abortion, gay and lesbian rights and evolution in the schools.
Bottom line.
Tue May 25, 06:38:00 PM 2010 
 TaoCat said...
"The issue isn't about God or the Bible and it isn't about how clever I am. It isn't about how cruel God is or how many people he killed, whether you think God is fictional or real."
Well, no wonder I was confused. That cleared it all up, thanks. Here I was thinking that Steve was pointing out how insane god is portrayed in the bible, but actually it is lesbians, gays, abortions and all us upitty atheists. Makes perfect sense.
Can somebody explain Daystar to me? All I understand is so far is that he seems to be a complete nutjob.
Tue May 25, 09:52:00 PM 2010 
 Srinivasan said...
Daystar said :
"How many people believe in astrology? Not so much believe in it as are mislead(sic) by it."
Wow isn't that rich coming from a Christian apologist? You are a sun-worshipper yourself. Christmas on 25 Dec (winter solistice), the 12 apostles (12 astrological signs), Easter (spring equinox), etc are replete with astrological symbolism. Oops, looks like you have just shot yourself in the foot buddy.
Wed May 26, 12:40:00 AM 2010 
 busterggi said...
Well TC, you've pegged Davey just fine but for details - he is a Jehovah's Witness who denies being one, he doesn't believe the bible is true except for the parts that are & they keep changing depending on his arguement of the moment.
He's also a mean drunk just like his god.
Wed May 26, 05:17:00 AM 2010 
 Daystar said...
TaoCat,
I'm the nutjob? How much time do you spend responding to people who believe in what you think is a primitive superstition? And I'm the nutjob? If there isn't some practical, like I said, social and political reasoning behind it then I'm not the only nutjob here.
Think of it this way . . . If Jehovah God had never been worshipped; no one had ever fought a war in his name, no one had ever rightfully or wrongfully oppressed or killed anyone in his name; no science was ever hindered, no inquisition or crusade, and instead he was introduced through science as some higher intelligent being in a form other than human you wouldn't be here arguing with this nutjob, would you?
As it is, though, from your uninformed atheistic perspective, you might as well go over to the anti Lord Of The Rings blog and count how many people Sauron, the Dark Lord has killed? No? Why, because people don't believe in him or because he doesn't exist outside of fiction?
Think about it.
Wed May 26, 05:48:00 AM 2010 
 Daystar said...
Maybe,
In the case of Laish, or Leshem, later known as Dan, from the DIU link you referenced to, the people may have seemed innocent to an uninformed atheist, but to God they were worthy of destruction do to their lewd sexual practices and sex religion.
Keep in mind that earlier the Danites suffered terribly due to their having not driven the pagan people completely out of the promised land. (Judges 1:34)
Dan's territory was excellent soil, but they were many on a small portion compared to the other tribes, and the fact that they didn't completely rid the land of the inhabitants caused them to fight with them, to be spiritually corrupted by the aforementioned lewd sex religion (Judges 10:6-7, 11-13), and to eventually have to take over Laish for more land.
Thus the taking of the Idols of Micah.
Jehovah was no friend to the inhabitants of Laish, the Sidonians. (Isaiah 23:4, 12 / Jeremiah 25:17, 22; 27:1-8; 47:4 / Ezekiel 28:20-24; 32:30 / Joel 3:4-8 / Zechariah 9:1-4)
So, you have the creator of life, the universe and everything, forming a nation of laws in order to produce a Messiah from this people, a Messiah who will save all mankind from it's own destruction . . . and this creator decides that these people of Laish should be destroyed.
The case of the Egyptian firstborn is a similar one. All of the killing and wars with other nations of that period which was sanctified by God was of a similar nature.
To God those people were as good as dead. They were deserved to die. The firstborn of Egypt would never bring anything but destruction.
Wed May 26, 06:46:00 AM 2010 
 Srinivasan said...
What,daystar, you have nothing to say to me, you sun-worshipper?
Comment on your comment about the excellent soil called Dan's territory: we are talking about that barren piece of desert land in the Middle East right? Where no natural resources are to be found, despite the fact that all the land around it is rich with oil underground? (rolling eyes to the imaginary heaven)
Wed May 26, 09:09:00 PM 2010 
 Demarlos said...
Daystar,
Hellfire does exist, sir, and it's in your unholy book. Revelations 21:8. Fire. In Hell. Hellfire. Very simple. And it's a lake, too. Wonderful.
You also danced around the point I made about your god's intellectual blunder. You didn't even attempt to make an excuse for it, which is ironic since you tried to take stabs at other things that were irrelevant. I don't care how much life your murderous god preserved in what city at what time, it does NOT justify why he had to destroy 99% of the world's population, regardless of how -wicked- they were. I don't care if he's sovereign or a creator or whatever you want to call him, he sure as hell isn't perfect. I stand by what I said before: a perfect and benevolent god would have found another way. I'm not perfect, but if I was this god, I know I'd have done things differently.
This is just for the sake of argument. I don't blame anything on a god I know doesn't exist. I blame it on the religious zealots who tortured, stoned, and killed many people labeled as heretics for crimes as simple as questioning the verses within the bible.
Oh, and a moral question for you. If this oh-so-loving god came down to earth today and requested that you kill your child, would you do it? Simple question, simple answer. You don't have to tap-dance around it.
Thu May 27, 04:59:00 AM 2010 
 Daystar said...
Srinivasan,
If I were a modern Christian you may actualy have had a point, but my beliefs are more similar to the JWs, who acknowledge the pagan origins of Christmas and Easter.
Those things don't come from the Bible, you know. Christian teachings are not heavily influenced by paganism.
Thu May 27, 05:37:00 AM 2010 
 skanksta said...
@ Daystar
You're the only on one this forum that seems to be talking any sense, but I'm not quite clear about some of your points...
"Upon discovering the reason behind the killing the informed Bible student comes to the conclusion that it is unfortunate that God had to kill all of these people, but at the same time is grateful that he will destroy those that destroy."
- Which part of the bible did you discover the answer from !?
- Why do you think it's "unfortunate" that god will destroy those who destroy ? Surely it's great news and very comforting ?
Thu May 27, 06:26:00 AM 2010 
 Nick said...
"To God those people were as good as dead. They were deserved to die. The firstborn of Egypt would never bring anything but destruction."
God knew they would only bring destruction? So instead of this all powerful being helping them to change he just kills them? He killed them before they were able to make their own choices, therefore he took away their free will, their freedom to choose god or sin. How is this justified? Even to the "creator", since he wants people to follow him by their own choice, and be responsible for their own damnation if they choose not too.
If god being omnipotent and omniprescent saw into the future and knew they were going bring destruction, then they never really had a choice after all, and were killed for what god created them to do.
Could you imagine being killed as a baby, and ending up in hell for something you didn't even do yet, or even have the choice to decide not to? All because it had already been layed out that you were going to. Some god there.
Thu May 27, 08:03:00 AM 2010 
 Daystar said...
Srinivasan,
We are talking about a very fertile and well watered city North of Palestine. Positioned on a low plain at the base of the Anti-Lebanon mountains, not far from Mount Hermon. Two springs join there and form the Nahr el-Leddan, the most abundant water of the streams that combine a few miles away from the Jordan.
Thu May 27, 08:48:00 AM 2010 
 Daystar said...
Demarlos,
In response to SAB on Rev. 21:8, I say the lake of fire is symbolic for everlasting destruction. Death, which can not literally be hurled or damaged by fire is thrown into it, and Satan, a spirit creature also can't be harmed by literal fire. (Revelation 20:10, 14 / Exodus 3:2 / Judges 13:20)
The Bible itself explains what the Lake of fire symbolically represents. The second death. In verse 8 itself as well as 20:14. Death and haides are also thrown into the lake of fire, which symbolizes their eternal destruction.
The second death is an eternal destruction from which there is no possibility of resurrection.
The Greek basanistes, translated as tortured or tormented is used in some translations as "jailers." The tormentors are the jailers. See Matthew 18:34 (RSV). The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia observed: "Probably the imprisonment itself was regarded as 'torment' (as it doubtless was), and the 'tormentors' need mean nothing more than jailers." (Edited by J. Orr, 1960, Vol. V, p. 2999)
I am guessing that when you ask me why God would have destroyed 99% of people its a reference to the flood?
God brought the flood because the Nephilim, which were the offspring of spirit creatures who took human form as men, mating with women. The word nephilim means "fellers" Those who cause to fall. They were a very destructive and nasty lot. They were influencing the people of earth to that effect. So here were these hybrids and violence that God wasn't going to allow. I suspect that if God had allowed it to continue the destruction would have been more destructive that the flood and we wouldn't be here talking about it.
Second guessing a perfect God by imperfect people is something I can never understand.
Thu May 27, 09:29:00 AM 2010 
 Daystar said...
Skanksta,
Thanks!
The Bible is full of examples of God destroying those who destroy, from Genesis to Revelation. One example is Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis 18:20; 19:13, 24-25 / 2 Peter 2:6).
It isn't unfortunate that God must and will destroy those who destroy, it is unfortunate that he has to. It isn't, contrary to the average skeptic's belief, something which he enjoys.
Ezekiel 33:11 - Say to them, '"As I am alive," is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, "I take delight, not in the death of the wicked one, but in that someone wicked turns back from his way and actually keeps living. Turn back, turn back from your bad ways, for why is it that you should die, O house of Israel?"'
Thu May 27, 10:01:00 AM 2010 
 Daystar said...
Nick,
First of all I'm not a believer in an omnipotent or omnipresent God as such. I don't believe the Bible teaches he is, as such. God can do whatever he wants to and can be anywhere he wants to, but not do anything (he can't lie, for example) nor is he everywhere all at once, for his position is fixed in heaven. It would be pointless to say that God was with man on earth, in the case of "Solomon's Temple" or in Revelation once sin is removed, if God were everywhere.
I think any term with an omni- prefix is religious nonsense.
As for Hell, the Bible doesn't teach hell.
It wasn't Jehovah's fault the Egyptian people raised their children in a way which was destructive to his purpose. To suggest that he should change them isn't conducive to their own will. It is silly to suggest your solution of God changing them instead of killing them because the Egyptians wouldn't even let his people go when he asked them, in a most convincing way, to do so.
Thu May 27, 10:16:00 AM 2010 
 TaoCat said...
Daystar sez-"I'm the nutjob? How much time do you spend responding to people who believe in what you think is a primitive superstition? And I'm the nutjob? If there isn't some practical, like I said, social and political reasoning behind it then I'm not the only nutjob here."
I actually don't spend a lot of time responding to nutjobs like yourself. I am grateful to Steve & Co. for doing so. Why? First, because it is a bit amusing to see people like yourself justifying your religion, usually by using the bible. Some of the circular reasoning provides acrobatics that shames Cirque du Soleil Secondly, nutjobs like yourself use this primitive superstition to enact laws. When the Lord of The Rings fans start trying to enact laws based on the most holy Tolkien, you may be sure we will be there as well.
Thu May 27, 01:11:00 PM 2010 
 Daystar said...
Daystar - The issue isn't about God or the Bible and it isn't about how clever I am. It isn't about how cruel God is or how many people he killed, whether you think God is fictional or real.
TaoCat - Well, no wonder I was confused. That cleared it all up, thanks. Here I was thinking that Steve was pointing out how insane god is portrayed in the bible, but actually it is lesbians, gays, abortions and all us upitty atheists. Makes perfect sense.
Can somebody explain Daystar to me? All I understand is so far is that he seems to be a complete nutjob.
TaoCat Later - I actually don't spend a lot of time responding to nutjobs like yourself. I am grateful to Steve & Co. for doing so. Why? First, because it is a bit amusing to see people like yourself justifying your religion, usually by using the bible. Some of the circular reasoning provides acrobatics that shames Cirque du Soleil Secondly, nutjobs like yourself use this primitive superstition to enact laws. When the Lord of The Rings fans start trying to enact laws based on the most holy Tolkien, you may be sure we will be there as well.
Daystar - When Jesus was tempted by Satan, who was going to give him all of the kingdoms of men for all time, because he had authority over them, Jesus refused. When the Jews wanted to make him king . . . he ran away from them. He told his followers to be no part of the world.
I am no part of the world. I don't vote, I don't voice my opinion through any legislation on any issue.
Educate yourself. Let go your hatred of your oppressors.
Thu May 27, 04:33:00 PM 2010 
 Steve Wells said...
A note about Daystar's beliefs.
1. Adam was created in 4026 BCE.
2. Jesus returned (although no one saw him) in 1914.
3. Jesus is not who you think he was. He was really the Archangel Michael.
3. Heaven only has space for 144,000.
4. The entire world is under Satan's control. Schools, fire departments, city councils, hospitals, churches, the Girl Scouts, Peace Corps, Walmart, you name it. Satan controls it all. (That's why Daystar doesn't vote.)
5. God will soon viciously slaughter everyone who disagrees with Daystar and the Jehovah's Witnesses. And Daystar's looking forward to it. He'll get to wash his feet in the blood of the wicked. (Wicked people are the ones who don't believe that Jesus returned in 1914.)
If you want to argue with him, that's fine. Me, I'm going to ignore him. Some beliefs are just too nasty and absurd to bother with.
Thu May 27, 05:22:00 PM 2010 
 Daystar said...
Steve,
That isn't a very accurate description of my or the JW's beliefs. I don't have much respect for organized religion but I do have enough so as not to take it upon myself to speak for them in that regard and I would appreciate if you would do the same.
I think it is a shame that you would ignore me or anyone on a discussion forum such as this, but if that is what you want to do I can respect that. As for the others lets not argue, lets discuss as rationally as is possible our differences.
Fri May 28, 06:35:00 AM 2010 
 Steve Wells said...
Daystar,
I know I'm supposed to be ignoring you, and I still plan to do that, but first I'd like to know which of the five great fundamental principles of your belief system did I misstate?
Fri May 28, 07:39:00 AM 2010 
 Nick said...
@Daystar,
I understand now that you don't believe in the onmi-stuff in relation to the bible god, and I apologize that I implied that, it is just so common for believers to say that he is.
Anyways, god killed children even without the benifit of knowing what they would do in the future, all because their parents wouldn't listen to him.
How is this any better than god killing them while knowing what they would do in the future?
And I did not say that god should change them, I said help them change, help.
Fri May 28, 08:04:00 AM 2010 
 Daystar said...
Steve,
Though I think your description of my beliefs was meant to be more satirical than factual, you did get the first one right without the satire.
1. Through a careful examination of Bible chronology it can be demonstrated that Adam was created in 4026 B.C.E.
2. Was wrong. Neither the JWs or myself believe that Jesus returned in 1914. We don't believe in a 2nd coming at all. The language of the Bible doesn't support it. It doesn't make sense from a theocratic perspective either. See Will Jesus' 2nd Coming Be Visible To All?
3 (A). Jesus existed in heaven before he came to earth, in spirit form. As an angel. Since the term "the archangel" implies one angel above all others, and there is only one other person besides the creator who the angels are subjected to, that being Jesus, who the Bible says will speak with the voice of an archangel, I think it safe to say, that before Jesus came to earth as a human he was Michael, don't you? (John 3:13; 6:38, 62 / Colossians 1:16 / 1 Peter 3:22 / 1 Thessalonians 4:16)
3 (B). I don't believe that heaven only has space for 144,000. I believe it has space for billions and billions of spirit creatures. What I do believe is that the Bible says that the meek shall inherit, not heaven, but the earth. So only 144,000 need to go to heaven to judge with Jesus. Jehovah and even Jesus Christ don't know what it is like to have lived under under sin. How could they fairly judge those who do know what that is like? By selecting a small portion that have lived under sin and to the best of their ability rose above it. (Revelation chapters 7 and 14)
Heaven wasn't created for man in mind. The earth was. Heaven isn't some mystical utopia for the self righteous religious hypocrites.
4. I could probably accept 4 in the satirical spirit in which it was given. Satan is in control of the world, including you, Paul, and I and all of those you mentioned. (Ephesians 6:11-12 / 1 Corinthians 10:20 / 2 Corinthians 11:14-15; 12:7 / John 12:31; 14:30)
5. I reject completely. You go too far. It is my wish that you and I and all of the people who have ever lived would be saved from destruction, even monster like Hitler and Stalin, but you and I are not in a place to judge such things. Though I would have those, such as yourself who disagree with me saved, you would reject it.
Fri May 28, 01:44:00 PM 2010 
 Daystar said...
Nick,
No problem, your implication was understandable under the circumstance.
I disagree with your assessment on the firstborn of Egypt. I don't think it would have taken an omnipotent God to foresee the upbringing of children without the regulation of Jehovah as being most likely being more of a hindrance than a suitable candidate for change.
But lets consider your proposition, which I in turn apologize for having assumed too much of. Lets say God decided that rather than kill them he would help them change.
How well did that work out for the nation of Israel?
Fri May 28, 01:53:00 PM 2010 
 Steve Wells said...
No, Daystar, I wasn't being satirical. I was just stating your beliefs.
1. You say that "through a careful examination of Bible chronology it can be demonstrated that Adam was created in 4026 B.C.E," Great! Could you do one those "careful demonstrations" for us?
2. You say that Jesus didn't return in 1914. Really? Not even his invisible presence? Nothing special about that date at all, according to you and the JWs? And there never was? Is that what you're saying?
3a. You say, "I think it safe to say, that before Jesus came to earth as a human he was Michael, don't you?" No, it's not safe, Daystar; it's batshit crazy.
Elvis had a voice of an angel. 1 Thessalonians 4:16 says that Jesus will have the voice of an angel. Therefore I think it safe to say that Elvis is Jesus, don't you?
3b. So heaven may have lots of space, but you agree that only 144,000 will be going there. Will they all be JWs?
4. You agree that the whole world is under Satan's control. Does that include you and the Watchtower? Is the Governing Body of the JWs under Satan's control?
5. You say you reject this one completely. So God will not soon destroy 6.8 billion people (all except you and the JWs) at Armageddon? You don't believe Armageddon is coming soon? You don't believe that virtually everyone (more than 99.9% of the human population) will be killed? And you don't believe that the killing will be rather messy and painful?
I think my original list was accurate enough, even if I did have two #3s.
Fri May 28, 08:21:00 PM 2010 
 Daystar said...
Steve,
Once upon a time you invited me here. You said that you would like to have some Christian feedback on especially, the cruelties of Jehvah God.
Now, buddy, when I come here and express those what the fuck did you expect?!
Don't shut me out and don't play me for sport.
I didn't realize that some of your family had been sucked in by the JW doctrine. I myself have had family of my own sucked in by that doctrine.
That is a personal kind of shit we have to go through.
I hate it as much as you do, well probably more because I know what I'm talking about and you don't.
You don't know what you are talking about.
That is your problem, not mine. You think your superior science bullshit can fuck with that, you are sadly mistaken.
You got some moral superiority stuck up your ignorant arrogant ass.
Well . . . thats a good place for it.
You want to talk then don't start our by saying your prime objective is to ignore me.
Fuck you.
Start again.
Fri May 28, 09:38:00 PM 2010 
 skanksta said...
Daystar, I was being sarcastic.
You clearly don't talk sense, you talk nonsense and deny scientific facts. The point of the phrase, "scientific facts" is that they can be verified to be true, make predictions and are falsifiable.
That's what makes them "scientific" and "facts" unlike mere "beliefs" like, (say) your belief that the world is approx 6,000 years old. You are - of course - welcome to any beliefs you so choose, but...
Anyway, fair play to you for coming on here. Even atheists know the maxim of "hate the sin, love the sinner" is a good one. While I ridicule your absurd beliefs, I DO respect you the person.
Sat May 29, 05:45:00 AM 2010 
 Steve Wells said...
Shucks, Daystar. I was hoping you'd give us "a careful examination of Bible chronology" to demonstrate "that Adam was created in 4026 B.C.E." But all I get is a "Fuck you."
You're welcome to stay here. I just want people to know where you're coming from if they choose to listen to you.
Sat May 29, 06:05:00 AM 2010 
 skanksta said...
Ok, on a totally different tangent...
IF the bible really were true and the transcendent word of god, THEN,
Why are Jesus and God always described as using swords, which are fairly puny low-tech killing devices.
For example, when 'St'. Paul talks of Jesus returning to earth with a flaming sword, why isn't it, (say) a flaming planetary control gun the like of which STILL hasn't even been invented ?
Tue Jun 01, 02:51:00 PM 2010 
 Matthew Blanchette said...
He might be completely illogical, but there's one thing, for sure: He is completely steadfast in his beliefs.
That's admirable in a person, even if they are batshit insane; at least he's not hurting anyone with them, right?
Tue Jun 01, 06:53:00 PM 2010 
 Maybe said...
Science bullshit?
Wed Jun 02, 06:24:00 PM 2010 
 Daystar said...
Steve,
I provided the Bible chronology nearly a year ago on the SAB forum. Perhaps you were ignoring me then as well?
Here
Fri Jun 04, 06:48:00 AM 2010 
 Steve Wells said...
Daystar,
I see a long list of dates and events, but where is the "careful examination of Bible chronology" that you mentioned? Where did you copy it from?
I'm not impressed by the length of your list. You provide no justification for a single date on the entire list. So yes, I ignored it then, as I do now.
Fri Jun 04, 07:49:00 AM 2010 
 TaoCat said...
Wow, when Daystar turns the other cheek, it gets cheeky indeed!
Now imagine if some atheist went onto a deist site and uttered that level of profanity. *poof* Atheist gone. But here Daystar gets to stay and provide some mental gymnastics for our edification and amusement.
Fri Jun 04, 01:58:00 PM 2010 
 Eccles said...
Steve Wells,
I just finished read the Kindle version of your book. I am a bedraggled refugee from the "Holy" Roman Catholic Church now a proud Atheist. On the Internet I have been part of the stuggle by Atheists to try to get some sense into those brainwashed "believers"
How anyone after reading the "Holy" Bible properly with an open mind can still believe in a "Creator/God" is beyond me.
Congratulations on your excellent book. The only problem is that closed minded Christians will never read it and not know the real truth about the worst book of fiction ever written, the "Holy" Bible.
Fri Jan 07, 06:25:00 PM 2011 
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 21 May 2010How many more will God kill?
(Revised to include new totals and more extensive analysis.)
In a previous post, I tried to count the number of people killed by God in the Bible. I came up with 2,476,633, if God's many unnumbered killings, such as Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, etc., are excluded; and 24,644,205, if estimates are used.
But what about God's future plans? Does the Bible tell us anything about that?
Well, yes it does. But it’s hard to take any of it seriously, especially if you’re a believer.
Take the great winepress of the wrath of God, for example. You know, the one featured in the Battle Hymn of the Republic.
Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord:
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword:
His truth is marching on.
 The story is told in the 14th chapter of the book of Revelation, which begins with Jesus (or “someone like unto the Son of man”) sitting on a white cloud with a gold crown on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand.
I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. Revelation 14:14
Then an angel stops by to tell Jesus that it’s time to start swinging his sickle.
Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. Revelation 14:15
So Jesus thrusts his sickle on the earth, while still sitting on his cloud.
He that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. Revelation 14:16
Another angel came out of the temple in heaven and joined Jesus on his cloud. He also has his sharp sickle with him, and together they begin to reap the harvest on earth.
Another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. Revelation 14:17
They swing their sickles and pour the resulting blood into a huge winepress. There is so much blood that it flows out of the winepress and covers the ground up to the horses’ bridles in a space of 1600 furlongs.
The winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs. Revelation 14:20
And from that we can estimate how many people will be killed by Jesus and his angel sidekick.
It’s a simple calculation. A furlong is 202 meters, so 1600 furlongs is about 320 kilometers, and a horse's bridle is 1.5 m high or so. If we take the winepress to be circular with a diameter of 320 kilometers, then the total volume is 1.2 x 1014 liters. And since an adult has about 5 liters of blood, that gives us 2.4 x 1013 (24 trillion) people.
Which could be a problem, even for God. Where will he find so many people to kill? His winepress requires nearly 4,000 times the number of people on earth.
Does this mean that Armageddon won’t occur until the human population reaches 24 trillion? Perhaps.
Or maybe God will just create more people when the time comes just to kill them.
Or it could just be hyperbole. God doesn’t really plan on killing trillions of people; he’s just trying to scare the shit out of everyone.
I’ll leave it for the believers to figure out.
But there are many other verses that say similar (batshit crazy) things in the Bible, and they’re not all in Revelation either.
God will kill so many people that the land will be soaked, the rivers flooded, and the mountains melted in blood. The ground will be covered with dead bodies, which will stink to high heaven. The whole earth will be destroyed. So I guess that means that everybody on earth will be killed by God.
Here are the verses.
Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. Isaiah 34:3
The unicorns shall come down with them … and their land shall be soaked with blood. Isaiah 34:7
The slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground. Jeremiah 25:33
I will also water with thy blood the land … even to the mountains; and the rivers shall be full of thee. Ezekiel 32:6
I will fill his mountains with his slain men: in thy hills, and in thy valleys, and in all thy rivers, shall they fall that are slain with the sword. Ezekiel 35:8
Saith the Lord GOD: there shall be many dead bodies in every place. Amos 8:3
I will slay the last of them with the sword. Amos 9.1
I command the sword, and it shall slay them: and I will set mine eyes upon them for evil, and not for good. Amos 9.4
There is a multitude of slain, and a great number of carcases; and there is none end of their corpses; they stumble upon their corpses. Nahum 3:3
I will utterly consume all things from off the land, saith the LORD. Zephaniah 1:2
I will bring distress upon men … their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung. Zephaniah 1:17
The earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy. Zephaniah 3.8 I will kill her children with death. Revelation 2:23
The third part of the sea became blood. Revelation 8:8
They … shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. Revelation 11:8
Still, I suspect that in many of these verses God is exaggerating. Sure, he’s planning to kill lots of people, but not everyone. The land won’t be entirely covered with dead bodies and the mountaintops won’t drown in blood. So I’m not going to estimate the number that God plans to kill from these verses. I’ll wait until God sobers up a bit to do my counting.
So we’re back where we started. How many does God plan to kill in the “end times” that believers hope and pray will come soon?
Well, the Bible tells us how many will be saved, which implies, I guess, that everyone else will be killed.
 I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. Revelation 7:4
…the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. Revelation 14.3-4
So if the “end times” happened today, only 144,000 Jewish male virgins would survive. The rest of the 6.8 billion would be killed by God (and then be tormented forever in hell).
Most believers don’t believe this of course. (The Jehovah’s Witnesses are a notable exception.) They say the 144,000 Jewish male virgins is symbolic or something. They just don’t know what it's symbolic of.
Are you ready to give up yet? I’m not.
There’s one other way to get an estimate, but I must warn you. It, too, is from Revelation.
Here are the verses.
 I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth. Revelation 6:8

 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men. And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand ... By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths. Revelation 9.15-18
OK, let's count them up. 1/4 will be killed by Death and Hell (per Rev 6:8). That leaves 3/4 alive, 1/3 of which will be burned to death by the 200 million fire and brimstone breathing horsemen of Rev 9.15-18. Since 1/3 of 3/4 is 1/4, half the human population will be killed in these two slaughters.
Assuming that the rapture (or whatever) is soon (and it's always coming soon), and that the earth's population will be about what it is today, 6.8 billion, then God will soon kill 3,400,000,000.
So what is our final answer?
Well, we have a lower and upper bound. God will kill at least 3.4 billion and perhaps as many as 24 trillion (if he’s going to get his bloody winepress filled).
So let's call it 3.4 billion.
Oh, and what about Satan?
He has no plans for killing any more people (at least there are none recorded in the Bible or that he has told me about). God  3,400,000,000 
Satan  0 


Posted by Steve Wells at 5/21/2010 11:52:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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36 comments:
 zooplah said...
Considering that most Christians believe that Revelation is apocryphal, I don't think that it's a reliable tool in convincing the sheep... I mean, believers of their god's anti-social tendencies.
But I'm curious why you set up a blog here instead of installing one on SAB. I mean, Blogger basically sucks. If you have your own server and a few minutes to spare, you can set up a blog that's much less annoying to readers. Just saying.
Wed Aug 16, 12:42:00 AM 2006 
 Musing said...
Cyber waving hello. Your site, The Skeptics Annotated Bible, is what jump-started an intense re-examination of everything I’d ever believed.
I began as a Reformed Baptist and then four years later ended as a spiritual agnostic (who's always ready to redefine my beliefs as I learn more).
Just wanted to say Thank You!
Wed Aug 16, 05:50:00 AM 2006 
 Steve Wells said...
Zooplah said, "Considering that most Christians believe that Revelation is apocryphal..."
They do? Revelation is also called the Apocalypse, but I don't know of any modern Christians that consider it apocryphal.
"But I'm curious why you set up a blog here instead of installing one on SAB. I mean, Blogger basically sucks."
Just lazy, I guess. Blogger may suck, but it's free and easy to set up and use.
Wed Aug 16, 07:49:00 AM 2006 
 Steve Wells said...
Musing said, "Your site, The Skeptics Annotated Bible, is what jump-started an intense re-examination of everything I’d ever believed. Just wanted to say Thank You!"
Thanks, Musing. That makes all the work on the SAB worthwhile!
Wed Aug 16, 08:02:00 AM 2006 
 Joel said...
I'm in the same position as Musing. 5 years as a hardcore christian.. then it all began falling apart, slipping through my fingers like sand. I could no longer force myself to believe in something that didn't feel right in my heart, only out of fear or guilt.
I deconstructed everything and started over, this time drawing my own conclusions. Not sure what to call myself, halfway between a deist and a spiritual agnostic.
Thanks for your hard work. I bet you get a shitload of criticism but it's all worth it man.
Wed Aug 16, 11:05:00 AM 2006 
 mgroves said...
I'm curious to this: if you are an unbeliever, then God didn't kill anyone because God doesn't exist. So I don't understand the point.
P.S. Zooplah, calling us "sheep" in a disparaging manner isn't going to help your case either, assuming your case is to reason us into believing the same as you.
Wed Aug 16, 11:42:00 AM 2006 
 Joel said...
Belief in a God Most High doesn't mean we have to believe in church dogma, or in the bible. I don't know what Steve believes but to deny the bible does not equate denying God, whatever/whoever it is.
Wed Aug 16, 08:13:00 PM 2006 
 Anonymous said...
I notice that a good number of your texts demonstrating violence in the Bible are from Isaiah, Jeremiah, Revelation, and some of the minor prophets. Yet what you fail to realize is the allegorical meaning of these texts. Mainstream Christians, especially Catholics, do not believe that the events of Revelation will happen literally. The Bible is a grand allegory peppered with history, myth, morality, and so forth. To treat it literally as you do is to play into the hands of conservative nut jobs.
Thu Aug 24, 12:36:00 PM 2006 
 Jake3988 said...
So you're saying the millions of christians who keep blabbering about the end of the world doesn't exist?
Or are you're saying they don't really believe what they preach? Or are they just attention whores?
Sat Sep 02, 11:54:00 AM 2006 
 Jake3988 said...
And the bible is as far from moral as immoralality can get. There is /some/ good.
But do you support slavery, support the silence of women, support death for homosexuals, support death for those working on the sabbath, etc? I really hope not. How is the bible moral then?
Most of the stuff jesus supports is just bad and at least a few cases DIRECTLY QUOTES the law.
I'm getting too long here, I'll end it there.
Sat Sep 02, 11:58:00 AM 2006 
 Jake3988 said...
One final thing: By the way, it doesn't matter at all whether or not the bible is true or not. Or whether god is real or not.
Its a book. The main character, GOD!, kills lots of people and wishes many many many more dead. That's the point.

So your saying any ol' books and movies that christians protest that have violence and nudity and such don't really matter at all because they're fiction? Please tell that to your christian pals for me so they can stop already.
Sat Sep 02, 12:19:00 PM 2006 
 Yan said...
I think you guys all wrong. According to bible all non-Christians will be killed. According to their lovely exaggerated count they have right now 1.5 billion people. That number contains all kinds of Christians, including, Jehovah witnesses, Mormons, other sects and so on. Most sects do hate each other and don’t considering others to be true Christians.
So , on that note, even we count 1.5 billion Christians and deducting from 6.5 billion total population we get 5 billion people will be tortured in hell.
And for that little number of 5 billion, there is no need even to read the bible (note that, most Christians never even read the bible). Just ask any intelligent Christian.
With this we arrive to the conclusion that Biblical god is one lovely piece of work. I wander if we got our morality wrong. I think the more we kill the closer we get to the GOD and that’s his grand master plan.
One thing to notice to SAB ( I got to admit the best religious site out there) that OT GOD is genocidal but friendlier and was more preoccupied with humans while new dude Jesus came in and with his sweet talk he introduced eternal punishment. Remember OT GOD was only killing people, Jesus is the one who tortures them for eternity and especially when Jesus will kill Satan, he is the one who is going to inherit keys of Hell. So much for all-loving being.
Wed Oct 18, 02:44:00 PM 2006 
 Tim Lindsay said...
First, your count is not necessarily reflective of the cultures of violence in Mormonism, Christianity, and Islam.
Second, because there was not a death count in every instance in the Bible, The Quran, or The Book of Mormon, the comparison is meaningless in its representation of the ancient religions.
Third, you missed a few more specific numbers in the Book of Mormon. 230,000 troops were killed in Mormon 6:11-15 which does not include women and children. While their deaths may be attributed to their rivals, consider the following:
Helaman 15:17 And now behold, saith the Lord, concerning the people of the Nephites: If they will not repent, and observe to do my will, I will utterly destroy them, saith the Lord, because of their unbelief notwithstanding the many mighty works which I have done among them; and as surely as the Lord liveth shall these things be, saith the Lord.
God actually claims credit for the mass genocide at the end of The Book of Mormon.
There are other references to massive killings without specific numbers:
1 Nephi 17:37 And [God] raiseth up a righteous nation, and he destroyeth the nations of the wicked.
Mormon 4:21 "...the Nephites were driven and slaughtered with an exceedingly great slaughter; their women and their children were again sacrificed unto idols."
Fourth, consider the density of death. The Book of Mormon covers about 1000 years (not including the Jaredites who are a minor part and have no part in the death census) in 531 pages which compares to the Bible's 5000+ years in 1590 pages of the same type, font, and size. I don't know about the time span or number of pages in the Quran, though it doesn't matter given the few numbered deaths. While the Book of Mormon still falls short of the Bible in density of death, it does include some remarkable graphic violence (which was striking to me when I first read it at the age of 8):
Ether 15:31 And it came to pass that after he had smitten off the head of Shiz, that Shiz raised up on his hands and fell; and after that he had struggled for breath, he died.
And the most extreme, horrific example of violence I have found in any book labeled "holy":
Mormon 9:9-10
And notwithstanding this great abomination of the Lamanites, it doth not exceed that of our people in Moriantum. For behold, many of the daughters of the Lamanites have they taken prisoners; and after depriving them of that which was most dear and precious above all things, which is chastity and virtue—
And after they had done this thing, they did murder them in a most cruel manner, torturing their bodies even unto death; and after they have done this, they devour their flesh like unto wild beasts, because of the hardness of their hearts; and they do it for a token of bravery.
And there you have it: the spiritual satisfaction of rape, torture, murder, and cannibalism all packed into a few short lines.
Sat Nov 04, 10:43:00 PM 2006 
 Steve Wells said...
Tim Lindsay,
Thanks for your comments. I agree with them, but I'm not sure how I could include them in my post. But if I can think of a way, I'll try to do so.
Regarding Moromon 9:9-10. You mean Moroni 9:9-10, right? In any case, you're right. It is gross!
Sun Nov 05, 01:16:00 PM 2006 
 Anonymous said...
I love this post and the previous one regarding God v. Satan in deaths.
Just in case you are interested you can keep your "future predictions" accurate by linking your world population number to the info at these links:
http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/worldpop.html
This site has the mathematical formula used.
http://www.ibiblio.org/lunarbin/worldpop
Population Counter
http://www.netlingo.com/more/poptick.html
Population Counter
Wed Jan 03, 06:38:00 AM 2007 
 Andrew said...
Anonymous said: "Yet what you fail to realize is the allegorical meaning of these texts."
Where in the Bible does it say "Oh, by the way, this is allegory/symbolic. Do not take it literally"? This is a moral value you have ascribed to the book that does not have its origins in the book. These morals cut across almost all cultures and religions. The only rational response then is that the morals that cause you to decide that these books are allegory do not come from religion at all.
Wed Mar 07, 06:02:00 PM 2007 
 crocusj said...
Andrew's last comment is the single most concise damnation of a belief system I have read. And all in five lines!
Perhaps though there is hope yet for those who see the bible as allegorical in that they have already recognised it's immorality (by using their own inner non religious morality) - depending of course on who is telling them which bits are "true" and which are not.
Sun Jun 07, 10:54:00 AM 2009 
 St. Diamond said...
I once saw a photo on the internet that said "God listens... to Slayer"
Well, I'm not sure about that... but, I think it's pretty obvious that he listens to Cannibal Corpse.
Mon Feb 15, 06:30:00 PM 2010 
 skanksta said...
The graph ! and, "It’s a simple calculation. A furlong is 202 meters, so 1600 furlongs is about 320 kilometers, and a horse's bridle is 1.5 m high or so. If we take the winepress to be circular with a diameter of 320 kilometers, then the total volume is 1.2 x 1014 liters. And since an adult has about 5 liters of blood, that gives us 2.4 x 1013 (24 trillion) people"

Wells back on top form, rofl !
Fri May 21, 03:31:00 PM 2010 
 thomas said...
Well you just have to love the folks that say "The bad stuff you quote from the Bible is purely allegorical, and so you can ignore that."
Then they turn around and quote the Bible to deny equal rights to gay couples, to forbid gays from coming out in the military, to insist that our basis of jurisprudence should be based on the Bible, to establish textbook standards that are Bible based.
How's about we ignore ALL the Bible stuff as purely allegorical. I don't have a problem with you worshiping whomsoever you want. Just leave me, my family, my laws, my home, my bedroom, and my Constitution out of it.
Fri May 21, 05:35:00 PM 2010 
 Daystar said...
My response to the SAB's take on Revelation chapter 14 can be found at . . .
The Pathway Machine
Steve, I miss you. You never call, you never write, you never add my additions to The Pathway Machine to the Skeptic's Annotated Bible . . .
I sent you responses to Is God Only Holy? Revelation Chapter 15, Should We Fear God? Is God's Will Done In Heaven? and others.
Sat May 22, 07:43:00 PM 2010 
 Daystar said...
Musing,
I am actually glad that Steve's SAB jump started you out of organized religion. I think the SAB is very useful for people who begin to see their own brand of organized religion and its failings. I am also, even more pleased to know that you keep your mind open and continue to learn.
Sat May 22, 07:50:00 PM 2010 
 Daystar said...
Joel, I can relate to what you went through with hardcore Christianity, as I sort of went through with the Jehovah's Witnesses.
Keep your mind open to learning, no matter what the answer may be, no matter where it may lead you.
And keep away from organized religion.
Sat May 22, 07:52:00 PM 2010 
 Daystar said...
Anonymous,
Keep in mind that I'm going down the list of recent responses and realize that there may have been others responding to you before me, but . . .
You can't explain away the violence in the Bible with allegory, as such. At least not a great deal of it.
Although I disagree with most of Steve's interpretation and think it is, if viewed from an theocratic or, dare I say, academic, somewhat lacking, he pretty much hit the nail on the head nevertheless.
God is going to kill about 3 Billion people. Steve says. I think that is a conservative estimate. Lets be realistic.
Anonymous . . . some advice. Don't make God into something he isn't. It weakens your defense and your spiritual integrity.
Sat May 22, 07:59:00 PM 2010 
 Daystar said...
Jake,
I don't think it really matters what Steve thinks. My take on it is that he is sort of saying that Christians don't know what they are talking about, and if you read my Scriptural response to his work, like Revelation, IE users Right click anywhere on the screen for a menu of each chapter of Revelation, because it is cool . . . I forgot what we were talking about. I'll have to scroll back . . .
Ah, yes. The end of the world. Well, Jesus said the world was founded upon the blood of Abel. It is, in a basic sense, Satan's system of things. False religion (almost all of it is false) commerce, and the political, uh, kingdoms.
Christ was tempted by Satan with all of the kingdoms of men, and Christ, though not refuting Satan's possession of these kingdoms, refused them. Because he was a King in the Kingdom that would replace them all. All of them.
So, the worl ends, but the meek shall inherit the earth. There is a distinction there, you see? The earth will last forever, the kingdom of men shall fall.
Now . . . isn't it obvious . . . from where you stand, that Christians are - can I say this Stevie? When you decide what I can and can't say - not quite on the ball.
I was going to say something else but I am trying to be more modest.
Sat May 22, 08:22:00 PM 2010 
 Daystar said...
Jake . . .
You said: "And the bible is as far from moral as immoralality can get. There is /some/ good.
But do you support slavery, support the silence of women, support death for homosexuals, support death for those working on the sabbath, etc? I really hope not. How is the bible moral then?
Most of the stuff jesus supports is just bad and at least a few cases DIRECTLY QUOTES the law.
I'm getting too long here, I'll end it there."
You point on morality reminds me of the sort of vague sort of nonsense spouted by really bad philosophers like Richard Dawkins.
I don't get it.
On one hand I may very well agree with you.
The morality in the Bible is, for example, King David, Beloved of Jehovah God, sending a loyal soldier to his death so he could "boink," well sort of for the lack of of a better term. Fuck. His wife.
The Bible is an example of poor morality. It is an example for us.
I get the impression that you are not Christian, so, on an intellectual level how could you argue that?
Sat May 22, 08:33:00 PM 2010 
 Matthew Blanchette said...
I took one look at your website, Daystar, and got a headache; get some better web design, man! :-P
Also, your comments confuse me; are you an atheist, deist, or a hardcore Christian?
As for me, well... if it weren't for this site (or, hell, just from reading the Bible at a young age!), I wouldn't be here, today.
So, thanks, Steve! :-)
Sun May 23, 05:37:00 PM 2010 
 Daystar said...
Matthew,
I have just spent the last 2 months redesigning my website. For almost a year it looked like every other website and I hated it. When I started it I put a a traffic monitor like Steve has at the SAB and I watched the stats on my site as well as the SAB and noticed that roughly 95% of the people that go to both sites view only 1 page for less than 1 second.
I decided I would make a website that I like. Though I don't really care what you think in the sense that it would induce me to make any changes I would be curious to hear what problems you had with it . . . IF you spent more than 1 second looking at it, that is.
As for what I am? None of the things you mentioned. I am a believer in the and a student of the Bible.
Sun May 23, 06:44:00 PM 2010 
 Steve Wells said...
OK, Daystar, I've added links to your stuff.
You say "almost all religion is false." I guess only yours is the True Religion. (Well, yours and the Jehovah's Witnesses, which are, as far as I can tell, identical.)
You say you're not a JW, Daystar. Which of their doctrines do you disagree with?
Sun May 23, 09:25:00 PM 2010 
 Daystar said...
Thanks for adding the links, Steve, I appreciate it.
As for religion, I don't think there ever has been or ever will be a "true" religion. The ancient Israelites had Jehovah himself among them, through prophets and the temple, etc. and yet they failed. The disciples with Jesus among them were not perfect in their thinking, and as Paul foretold at 2 Timothy 4:3-4, Christianity would reject the true teachings and replace them with, from the Greek, mythous and later, from the Latin, fabulos. Myth and fables.
The trinity, cross, rapture, hell, immortal soul, Christmas and Easter are examples of this.
I am not just of the opinion that any so called Christian who disagrees with me is false because I am true, I am of the opinion that organized religion creates, from one man or a few, errors on a massive scale which they then have to protect and defend.
I have been wrong and will continue from time to time to be wrong on my beliefs. I change accordingly and I don't prescribe my error to those who would blindly adhere to them.
A brief study of any organized religion will demonstrate the power of it to distort the original teachings. Buddhism, Judaism, Hinduism, Taoism . . . To me the most obvious examples are Taoism and Christianity.
The JWs removed, rightfully so, the pagan influences in traditional Christianity and so we agree on much, but where they differ from my beliefs is most clearly seen in ways which they control their followers or read into prophecy their own alleged fulfillment.
We disagree on the anointed class, and the two witnesses for example. They stretch these two examples into a religious sort of application to themselves.
I disagree with positions they have taken in the past on neutrality, education, vaccinations, organ transplants as well as their current blood transfusion stance.
I don't disagree with their position on blood transfusions as much as I do on their ban on it. It should be a matter of conscience.
Mon May 24, 11:34:00 AM 2010 
 Matthew Blanchette said...
Christianity has always been paganistic! That's what it rose out of, dammit!
Look closer; the JWs really don't have all the answers (in fact, their name for God is a mistranslation from the KJV), and (sadly enough, for your efforts) neither do you.
Mon May 24, 10:46:00 PM 2010 
 Daystar said...
Matthew, Christianity didn't come from the pagan. That's pretty lame atheist propaganda.
The JWs really don't have all the answers, nor does anyone, and the name Jehovah doesn't come from a mistranslation in the KJV.
You had better either pay closer attention to the facts you gather or stop reading atheist nonsense.
Tue May 25, 06:43:00 AM 2010 
 Matthew Blanchette said...
Look here, Daystar, and you will attain wisdom: http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=Jehovah+was+a+mistranslation&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=228b2d7756b2e3a7
;-)
Tue May 25, 10:51:00 AM 2010 
 Daystar said...
Nice try, Matthew, but as they say - no cigar.
Tue May 25, 11:59:00 AM 2010 
 busterggi said...
Aw Matthew, Davey's been kicking around here for years & he's never wised up - if he did we wouldn't recognise him.
Tue May 25, 06:27:00 PM 2010 
 Ana Lorena Victor said...
It seems that most of the wondering people, those who say they lost their faith or use sarcasm about God's love, have not and probably never understand the meaning of the word: God.
Tue Apr 30, 01:30:00 PM 2013 
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Dwindling In Unbelief



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 19 May 2010It's Draw Muhammad Day!
Since I'm not much of an artist, I thought I'd post this video from the Amazing Atheist. I think he's really captured the essence of Muhammad (peanut butter and jelly be upon him) in his drawing.


Posted by Steve Wells at 5/19/2010 09:54:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:  
71 comments:
 psybermonkey said...
Hurray! Mine took me a few hours but I guess that's what happens when you're a skilled art major: http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/9934/muhammadk.jpg
Wed May 19, 10:06:00 PM 2010 
 skanksta said...
Gotta love the ad across the banner - meet Muslim singles - don't suppose the vid would be the best move on a first date, lol !
Thu May 20, 02:44:00 AM 2010 
 Eiman Khawaja said...
I feel awful and insulted this day.U guys seem to be having with all that and i know u wouldn'd give a damn to my feelings but still u need to know how i feel .I wonder how can be one be happy by making others unhappy.Islam may be a stupid Arabic tale to someone and muhammad a fake figure but for me they r my life.
Thu May 20, 03:37:00 AM 2010 
 Ryan W. said...
Eiman:
Why do you feel insulted?
I hope I speak for everyone when I say that we support your right to believe whatever you want. In return, you should not expect us to hold your beliefs with the same reverence you do.
It's not about making people unhappy; on the contrary, it's to show a growing global theocracy movement that they hold no power over us. Do you want to be told what to believe or come to those beliefs on your own terms?
Word Verification: stalin.
Thu May 20, 08:10:00 AM 2010 
 srizals said...
You see, what you are doing only hurt some Muslims, those who do not believe that stupidity is what stupid people are so clever of doing.
Go ahead, show to the rest of the world how clever you are in dealing with a threat that you can't even comprehend. You are so afraid of us. It shows.
You have my sympathy. For being afraid out of ignorance.
To the rest of the Muslims. Don't be tempted on such a childish act of the ignorant. They'll get what they deserved.
This is the proof needed by so many of what these people are really made of. Dwindling of self respect and comprehension. Forever caught in the endless circle of stupidity.
They don't deserve our anger. A complete empty self that seek fun in the only way that they know. By being ignorant. Read up the verses of Al Quran in dealing with the ignorant. Save your energy. They are not worth it. Deal with these cowards with your mighty pen. They have no point of standing.
Thu May 20, 08:34:00 AM 2010 
 TaoCat said...
srizals said...
"You see, what you are doing only hurt some Muslims, those who do not believe that stupidity is what stupid people are so clever of doing."
Wow. That actually hurt. I realize English may not be your first language, but you still might try and put a point in your tirades somewhere, one that actually makes sense.
"To the rest of the Muslims. Don't be tempted on such a childish act of the ignorant. They'll get what they deserved."
Ahh, the thinly veiled threat. Muslims do have such a thing for veils..
Thu May 20, 01:37:00 PM 2010 
 srizals said...
Read carefully between the lines TaoCat. Our different backgrounds and beliefs would of course influence our understanding of what we're reading. English or not. But I guess, intellectuality does shows.
Just for you TaoCat, I'll repeat myself.
"Stupidity is what stupid people are so clever of doing."
"They'll get what they deserved" means, the belief that all good and bad have consequences in this life and the afterlife. It is known as accountability to you. So I'm asking some easily intimidated Muslims not to hurt those who hurt them. It's not worth it. Some people are easily intimidated, some are not. Regardless of religions, their IQ and EQ. It has to do with what exist in all of us. Human nature.
All the good and the bad will get what they deserved for eternity in the afterlife. Since you don't believe a Muslim faith, why should you see it as a threat? Something that you don't believe in can't possibly do anything bad to you, right? Chill out.
"To the rest of the Muslims. Don't be tempted on such a childish act of the ignorant".
Where's the threat there?
Thu May 20, 03:43:00 PM 2010 
 busterggi said...
Why is Muhammad always depicted with long hair & a beard? Jesus & Yahweh too for that matter?
How do we know that gods aren't bald?
Thu May 20, 04:30:00 PM 2010 
 Person0123452 said...
http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/9454/mohammed.jpg
Here's my effort (I suck at art).
Also, we do it because we can, because we want to, and you have no right to tell us we can't.
Thu May 20, 04:32:00 PM 2010 
 psybermonkey said...
Exactly Person. Furthermore, there wouldn't be such a day to begin with if Muslims weren't so violent and intolerant towards such a harmless act. It's not meant to insult Muslims but to voice against their absurd ideology.
Thu May 20, 09:39:00 PM 2010 
 Erik said...
If Muslims asked us not to draw Muhammad, no problem. Instead, you demand we don't draw Muhammad, and burn our flags and threaten our people if you do. So suck it up!
Fri May 21, 01:07:00 AM 2010 
 srizals said...
psybermonkey said,
"Muslims' absurd ideology", please define. Regarding what?
Person0123452 said,
'Also, we do it because we can, because we want to, and you have no right to tell us we can't'.
You have a very peculiar view of a person. I surely hope that when someone did something annoying to you or did bad things to you, you'll remember what you have said here.
Fri May 21, 02:43:00 AM 2010 
 psybermonkey said...
srizals, by absurd ideology I mean (among other things) the belief that it is ok to violently demand and threaten those who use their freedom of speech in regards to Islam. We're a culture that doesn't appreciate being told what to do, especially when the people telling us what to do are using threats instead of giving us a real reason not to do a thing.
Like Erik said, "If Muslims asked us not to draw Muhammad, no problem. Instead, you demand we don't draw Muhammad, and burn our flags and threaten our people if you do. So suck it up!"
Fri May 21, 10:00:00 AM 2010 
 Person0123452 said...
srizals, as a human being, if I am told I cannot do something that the only way it hurts someone is if they choose themselves to look at it, and they threaten to kill people who do it for other reasons for example comedy or informative reasons, I am bound to say "fuck you, I can" then to prove it I will do it.
Are you muslim? What if I told you you couldn't worship your fake god because it offends me. Would you a. say "ok, I won't" or would you carry on doing it anyway? I am against telling muslims that they can't wear certain religious clothes. Because no-one else (including someone's husband and the government) has any right to tell someone what to wear. I'd encourage a mass wearing of the banned item in protest. Wouldn't you, if you were banned from wearing a certain religious symbol?
The exact same thing applies here, you have no right to tell me what I can and can't draw, so if people recieve death threats and are actually killed for what they draw then we will protest by saying "you can't do that", and I will join that protest. If you are really offended then it is pretty common sense not to click on something that says "draw mohammed day".
Fri May 21, 11:09:00 AM 2010 
 skanksta said...
Person nailed it.
Fri May 21, 03:28:00 PM 2010 
 srizals said...
Blogger psybermonkey said...
"We're a culture that doesn't appreciate being told what to do"
I know, you would very much like to be respected and appreciated for your existence, treated as an intelligent human being that you are, but what about the Muslims, are they not as the same as you? Are you above them?
If you knew something is offensive to someone, would you glaringly provoke him in the first place just to show that you can do it? Wouldn't you think it's quite snobbish?
You never met Muhammad nor know anything about him, so why making fun of him? If you don't like how certain Muslims are behaving, instead you should be drawing and making fun of the Muslims that annoyed you.
You said you can do whatever you want, and yet you cannot appreciate what the Muslims were doing in respond to your first bullet. They burn your flag, and it is very offensive to you. No, they won't 'draw' back to you, they can't. They are forbidden to make fun of others' belief and god. Please note that it was your culture that steps on the foot of other culture first. Surely you can't expect they would not do anything. Look at you, you did something that you said as a respond to Muslims' demand.
Your culture has failed to respect other culture, so don't act so baffled when you pissed off somebody from different culture.
Why did you do it in the first place? Is it just plain hatred, or simply a provocative measure? If you said that it's your right to do anything as a free person, expect some fanatics to think the same. They think they have the right to threaten and kill such a person that defiles something that they considered as holy and precious. Don't you think that they are just like you? You and they are free to do whatever that suits you.
Muslims on the other hand are being violently killed in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq and Palestine. They are being marginalized in other country, especially in the West. So you can guess why they resent you guys so much. The ones that failed to show any respect towards others. I won't over generalize all Westerners as you guys. People are just so different from one another.
And yet, you guys are living in a dream world, completely oblivious why some Muslims, are so easily provoked. If you have been witnessing your loved ones being brutally killed, your country being invaded, even a stupid cartoon would be seen as an act of arrogance.
Person0123452 said...
"What if I told you, you couldn't worship your fake god because it offends me"
I didn't know that your belief requires you to mock and made fun of other belief in order to feel right. The common sense is respect others, and they will respect you.
Personally, I don't think that those who like to insult others to make a point deserved to be kill. They are just plainly not worth dying for.
Fri May 21, 03:41:00 PM 2010 
 TaoCat said...
Oh, are the poor muslims being treated with something less than respect? Respect is earned. When I can go to a muslim country and express my beliefs freely, maybe then I will grant your religion some respect. When sharia isn't used to oppress women (and child brides) then perhaps your faith will be granted more respect.
As to the war, I hate innocents being killed regardless of their religion. But ideological forces on both sides foster this sort of callus hatred. That is why blogs like this are around-showing that all religious dogma (you may notice he also mocks christianity, etc.) is hazardous to your thinking and your health.
Sat May 22, 08:48:00 AM 2010 
 srizals said...
You are one arrogant cat, TaoCat. But at least, you are not a pure hater that thrives on the miseries of man.
Respect is earned, true, but nonetheless, the inability to respect and understand what is sacred to someone else is considered as an inconsiderate gesture, a characteristic of the oppressor and destroyer of mankind.
You have overgeneralized all Muslims to be radical and docile in nature for the actions of the few. I wonder if you can accept this statement, most of the brutalities and killings were done by the atheists throughout history and so, all atheists are naturally destructive and oppressive when they were in power, when they are not, they are simply irritating.
The reason that made those Muslims ran berserk in the first place never get any mention in the West. They were just brushed aside as loons that hate the freedom of the West.
Mao, Pol Pot and Stalin if I recalled correctly do have something in common. They see religion as a source of evil and backwardness, so they started a revolution to get rid of them and marked their actions in history. The genocide that was so horrible that none of the culprits were ever brought to justice.
World War 1 and 2 were not driven by Muslims. The only nation that used weapon of mass destruction on civilians was not a Muslim nation. The atrocities and terror inflicted upon nations and people at that time were governments that had the support of the majority of the people. Are there any similarities of what some Muslim fanatics are doing today?
You seem to have more concern on children marriages in certain Muslim countries rather than the paedophiles menace and sexual related problems in the West. Are those marriages as rampant as the sexual problems of exploiting children as young as a baby and women to the vilest way imaginable in the West? What say you?
Are you a Taoist or a follower of Nietzsche? Have you aborted your baby?
Sat May 22, 05:43:00 PM 2010 
 TaoCat said...
Overgeneralized? So I could go and advocate atheism in any muslim country? Care to name one?
As to atheists and communists, you might remember that I believe DOGMA to be the culprit, whatever fantasy system that spawns it. Musim countries have their own share of pedophiles, ethnic cleasings, etc. Trying to pretend this is simply a problem of the west is disingenuous at best.
As for irritating, you seem to have that covered all by yourself. Enjoy your fantasy.
Sat May 22, 08:40:00 PM 2010 
 Matthew Blanchette said...
And I... missed this.
Damn; I could've faced the ire of religious bigots everywhere, but nooooo -- I had to forget! :-(
Ah, well; you know what they say about the sword of the LORD... ;-)
Sat May 22, 10:53:00 PM 2010 
 srizals said...
Dogma? Funny one TaoCat. If you can prove that Pol Pot, Stalin and Mao, to name a few, were not atheists, sure, by all means. On top of that, prove that your craving for unlimited freedom is not destructive and suicidal. Prove that abortion did not kill. Do seek out who are the major paedophiles according to backgrounds and googled for it, their characteristics. You'll be surprise. Numbers and percentages TaoCat. They count. Bosnia, Myanmar and Albania are some recent memoirs of atheists' kindness and present to humanity.
Yes TaoCat, I agree with you, there are evil everywhere. We are humans and that what humans do. They erred from time to time. In Christianity, Islam and every religion, but they dare not say that they are right all the time and are or were representing their religion, most of them are misunderstanders of their faith, not like atheists, they say they are and were always right and never ask for forgiveness. Tell me TaoCat, have you ever taken an examination before? The percentages of your marks, they count. That was how you got your grades.
Do you still remember this famous phrase of a fairy tale TaoCat?
Mirror, mirror on the wall, who is the dreadest of them all? As I recall, the atheists' mind, as they went down in history, a quite number of them of course, tend to be genocidal if not suicidal and are close to insanity. Are you sure that you really know about Atheism to be an atheist in the first place? Do you know Sade and Nietzsche? You seem to know Muhammad but I wonder do you know the atheists that had created your faith of unbelief?
Sun May 23, 06:34:00 AM 2010 
 psybermonkey said...
"who is the dreadest of them all? As I recall, the atheists' mind, as they went down in history, a quite number of them of course, tend to be genocidal if not suicidal and are close to insanity."
Ah, this old pathetic argument again. Can't say I'm surprised to see it coming from you.
Atheism is simply the non-acceptance to the claim that god exists. That's it. It says absolutely nothing about your morals as that is not the term is meant to provide any more than "non-stamp collector." Provide me evidence where the historical figures you mentioned killed IN THE NAME of atheism - just as religious people do. You can't because that wasn't their agenda. Atheism is nothing more than not accepting the claim of the existence of god and so you can be incredibly evil or incredibly moral. Even you cannot deny that you don't have to be religious to be moral - as its simply depends on being raised in an environment that teaches you to be so. A belief in an invisible sky god is not a required factor.
And are you going to tell me that the only reason why you (I assume) don't go out committing crimes and hurting people is because you believe god says its wrong? I think we both know that it goes much deeper than that. Take god away and you will still have the internal ability to sympathize and uphold the universal golden rule.
And I'd also like you to answer me this: if you foundation for ethics is constructed based on what god says...would pedophilia, rape, and anything else be OK if god came before you and said they were? If he makes the rules as to what is moral and what isn't, why wouldn't you advocate them?
That reminds me...Mohammad married his wife Aisha at 6 years old and had sex with her once she turned 9. Show me the handbook for atheists where such disgusting and horrible behavior is advocated. You won't because it's not a dogmatic religion (or a religion at all!). It's simply the non-acceptance of the claim for the existence of god. That's it. It doesn't even mean that you cannot be religious, such as the fact that many Buddhists are secular.
So what is our basis for morality then, if not god? Again, even those the term "atheist" isn't meant to say anything about one's morals any more than "non-stamp collector," you should look up secular humanism sometime. That is what I consider my basis. So long as you are raised to be moral and to exercise your built in ability to sympathize, as millions of atheists are, your god is not necessary any more than the billions of other proposed gods. After all, I think people came to the conclusion that it wasn't good to kill, rape, and steal from each other before the 10 commandments. You're silly stereotype had no leg to stand on.
Sun May 23, 10:23:00 AM 2010 
 Matthew Blanchette said...
Methinks srizals doth protest too much; he may be intelligent, but he's generalizing the whole of atheism into one amorphous blog for his own usage.
Seriously, would anyone in their right mind contemplate Stephen Fry and Richard Dawkins and subsequently lump them in with Stalin and Pol Pot?
Sun May 23, 05:26:00 PM 2010 
 srizals said...
What can I say Matthew, It’s just a day in the life. Without a good discussion our neurons won’t get enough exercise and would be dwindling, hopefully not in unbelief.
You jump too fast psybermonkey, tell me a paedophile that married his victim upon the approval of the parents and the society and no one, not even his dreaded nemesis at that time mocked him for it. You forgot the most important characteristics of paedophiles; they do not stop at one child and never marry one. A girl in Thailand, a nine year old gave birth to a baby in our own millennium; gay boy will never have such privilege. He is only entitled to Aids if not HIV. Tell me, have nature forgotten the rights of the misfits? Why is there so much diseases threatening the sexual deviated? Natural selection?
Yes, atheists are smartie pants. They wouldn’t dare to declare it to the world that they were doing all the hideous things in the name of atheism. They only say that they were getting rid of the plague that was polluting the society that made them render useless, uncreative and rebelling against them, religion. Tell me what religion had done the same? When did any religion exterminated atheists in a genocidal scale like what atheists did to the religious? In a very inhumane way for any humanistic view. Do you know the background of humanism? I mean where did it come from? I think all of us knew where secular came from and the reason behind it.
Sadist came from the name of a person, Sade. Go check him out. He used sex to defile religion, in the vilest manner he could think of, and he is a respected philosopher. And I don’t think he’s doing it in the name of any religion.
Are you now beginning to see what you guys are actually doing? You don’t like to be mocked at and overgeneralized and yet that is exactly what you are doing here.
Tell me psybermonkey, atheists seem to be championing the abortion cause. Any religious man and woman would say that it is bad, if not based on medical and crime’s perspective. What say you?
Humans are equipped with good and bad judgements. Religion perfected them.
Sun May 23, 07:02:00 PM 2010 
 psybermonkey said...
As I expected, you dodged my question. Out of the many theists I have asked, only one has ever had the courage to honestly give me an answer, so I kindly ask you to do the same. Otherwise I won't reply to anything you just said. Again, the question is this:
If your foundation for ethics is constructed based on what god says...would pedophilia, rape, and anything else be OK if god came before you and said that they were? If he makes the rules as to what is moral and what isn't, why wouldn't you uphold and practice them under his command?
Sun May 23, 08:02:00 PM 2010 
 srizals said...
I would call him a liar since it is unfitting for God to came down here and reveal Himself in order for His mere creation to believe in Him. It would be completely pathetic. Just like Dawkin had to argue with me, an average Joe and Dawkin is just a mere man, get my point? Is this a true question or a trick question? I’ll never know, since I cannot see what’s in your heart, only predict based on your writing, so I would take it for granted that it is a genuine question from you. There are things that in this life that are so powerful that we would melt upon seeing and having a contact with them. What more is God? He is the most powerful above all, incomparable with all that exist here in the universe. We can only see Him when we have undergone the second transformation of our existence here, just like before when we born. We were nothing then in this world, then we have become something and I don’t think Science would agree that after being something, we would just vanish into thin air, since it would contradict the basic of Science that everyone had learned at some times in their life. Just like a dead body and a life one. What is the difference? Can you tell? One heart has stop beating while the other keeps on beating. They look the same physically, but they are not. What made the heart beats a rhythm in the first place? Can I have a secular humanistic view on it right from its believer?
First of all you are asking the wrong question. If God kept on popping here and there and pleading helplessly to every man that didn’t believe in Him, what kind of God is that? It is unfitting for Him to do that. Instead, He sent messengers and prophets to all mankind. You have mistaken me as those who have taken the physical created being as god. God is unseen, just like your emotion; it lies deep beneath your heart and mind. When you manifest them physically, only then they are seen and understood by others.
God doesn’t need us. It is the other way around. What’s your explanation of the hollowness in us that we kept on trying to fill with theories and ideas in order to make sense of our existence? God has shown us a way to live accordingly. But this is of course unacceptable for those who have defied the nature of themselves.
You have confused the descriptions of god in the bible with the descriptions of God in the Koran. They are completely different. Unless you can point to a sin or immorality as to you were asked by God to be done by man in His service, I have to say your question is the most absurd question I’ve ever encountered and therefore the most precious trophies of them all. Thank you for asking me the question. Now, where’s the answer to my questions? Or are you trying to do what you have accused me of earlier?
Mon May 24, 01:29:00 AM 2010 
 Person0123452 said...
srizals
"Personally, I don't think that those who like to insult others to make a point deserved to be kill. They are just plainly not worth dying for."
That's fine, but some people do, which will automatically get a negative response, and it will achieve the exact opposite of what you want, especially when you can't carry out the threats.
Mon May 24, 07:34:00 AM 2010 
 TaoCat said...
Well, srizals since you only selectively choose questions to answer, (and then do so with a stunning degree of verbosity and semi-poetic double-speak)I doubt anybody is interested in answering your question. All you've done is reveal yourself to be terribly ignorant of atheism, of the arguments of secularism and all the while apparently believing yourself to be a wonderfully clever proselytizer of islam .
Much as I hate to disabuse you of the notion of your cleverness, I would suggest you do some more reading, outside of the Qur'an, and then come back.

"Just like Dawkin had to argue with me, an average Joe and Dawkin is just a mere man, get my point?"
You actually personally argued with Dawkins? I'd like to see some proof of that. Until then, Buh-bye!
Mon May 24, 08:18:00 AM 2010 
 psybermonkey said...
Your response is quite ironic. At one point you said that "He [God] is the most powerful above all, incomparable with all that exist here in the universe." You also said that if he did reveal himself to you and made such commandments, you would call him a liar because you believe that god wouldn't do such a thing.
Well, if you hold to your first statement above, who are you to judge god? Can't he do whatever he wants? Isn't he above you? Aside from the fact that he is recorded in scripture to have actually appeared "face to face" to people, why couldn't he do so if he chose to unto you? Doesn't he have the power to do so and prevent you from being overwhelmed? Also, I never said that he would appear to everyone to prove his existence...I merely asked what you would do if he appeared to you. For arguments sake, let's pretend that he came unto you as a new age prophet like he did Moses and others.
So here's the setup. One that you cannot get around:
1) God can do anything
2) You nor anyone else has the right to judge god due to his vast superiority and absolute authority
3)God makes the rules
4)If you believe that the previous circumstances above are true, answer the following question: If god came before you as he did unto others (and you KNOW without a DOUBT that it is your god) and commanded that it is now acceptable to rape and murder children and that you should go out and advocate others to do the same...would you? Again, if the first three circumstances are true, as you seem to believe, why wouldn't you do what god commands of you? why wouldn't they be acceptable?
Simply stating that it's "the wrong question" is a cowardice response given by those who do not want to admit to their imploding ideology.
Please, just answer the question. It's quite simple given the 4 circumstances I laid out for you. Prove to me that you have the courage to honestly do so, unlike most of the others.
Mon May 24, 08:43:00 AM 2010 
 srizals said...
Either my English is too bad for your Tao background or you have purposely unable to comprehend my simple writing. You can't read between the lines can you? You can't even understand the comparison that I've made. Sorry, I won't repeat myself this time. You have to read up on your own.
You are giving the atheist a bad name for not being able to understand a simple piece of writing. Go draw another cartoon. At least that is what you are good at. I hope.
Mon May 24, 09:39:00 AM 2010 
 psybermonkey said...
For some reason it seems my comment didn't get published so I'll repost it...
Your response is quite ironic. At one point you said that "He [God] is the most powerful above all, incomparable with all that exist here in the universe." You also said that if he did reveal himself to you and made such commandments, you would call him a liar because you believe that god wouldn't do such a thing.
Well, if you hold to your first statement above, who are you to judge god? Can't he do whatever he wants? Isn't he above you? Aside from the fact that he is recorded in scripture to have actually appeared "face to face" to people, why couldn't he do so if he chose to unto you? Doesn't he have the power to do so and prevent you from being overwhelmed? Also, I never said that he would appear to everyone to prove his existence...I merely asked what you would do if he appeared to you. For arguments sake, let's pretend that he came unto you as a new age prophet like he did Moses and others.
So here's the setup. One that you cannot get around:
1) God can do anything
2) You nor anyone else has the right to judge god due to his vast superiority and absolute authority
3)God makes the rules
4)If you believe that the previous circumstances above are true, answer the following question: If god came before you as he did unto others (and you KNOW without a DOUBT that it is your god) and commanded that it is now acceptable to rape and murder children and that you should go out and advocate others to do the same...would you? Again, if the first three circumstances are true, as you seem to believe, why wouldn't you do what god commands of you? why wouldn't they be acceptable?
Simply stating that it's "the wrong question" is a cowardice response given by those who do not want to admit to their imploding ideology.
Please, just answer the question. It's quite simple given the 4 circumstances I laid out for you. Prove to me that you have the courage to honestly do so, unlike most of the others.
Mon May 24, 09:49:00 AM 2010 
 Ritchie Annand said...
Communism was all about throwing off the chains of the working class. Marx thought religion was one of those chains used by the elite to enslave the working class.
Unfortunately, its proposals failed almost entirely to take into account human nature, and the layers of elite and oppression came back in a different form.
The result is a system that precious few Western atheists would propose, support or want to live under.
Atheists are also identified with supporting Darwinian evolution. That is a topic that was rewarded with imprisonment in the Soviet Union.
Communism uses atheism to further other goals. I would contrast that with the Islamic theocracies, which are direct implementations - with some variation - of Islam.
History aside, way to miss the point of the day, especially with accusations of being 'afraid out of ignorance', a fear of which you seem by your tone to be perversely proud.
This is solidarity in the face of assassination attempts and death threats. If we can do to the puffed-up hypersensitive self-styled mullahs issuing fatwas and bounties what Superman comics did to the KKK (via ridicule), even if by increments, then mission accomplished.
To the rest of the Muslims. Don't be tempted on such a childish act of the ignorant. They'll get what they deserved.
Oh, how generous of you. Other moral entities would wish restraint and/or understanding without the itinerant revenge fantasy. Even if you consider it the truth in your mythology, mentioning it as a reason for restraint reduces your magnanimity to near-zero.
Mon May 24, 10:24:00 AM 2010 
 TaoCat said...
srizals, you've convinced me! I see the light of Islam! Praise Allah! It all makes sense now!




Ha, only joking. You really don't have a clue, and are offering up the lamest of arguments as though they were glorious gems of wisdom. Seriously, you are just embarrassing yourself at this point. Islam=Fail.
Mon May 24, 10:54:00 AM 2010 
 srizals said...
Psybermonkey,
Such a question would not be considered as possible since according to my faith, God has informed us that He has only forbidden act of indecency and inappropriateness.
No Muslim can claim that God had revealed Himself to him nor appoint him as a new messenger nor even imagine that God would ask them to do bad things.
[5:3]
Prohibited for you are: carrion, blood, the flesh of swine, and those upon which (a name) other than that of Allah has been invoked (at the time of slaughter), animal killed by strangulation, or killed by a blow, or by a fall, or by goring, or that which is eaten by a beast unless you have properly slaughtered it; and that which has been slaughtered before the idols, and that you determine shares through the arrows. (All of) this is sin. Today those who disbelieve have lost all hope of (damaging) your faith. So, do not fear them, and fear Me. Today, I have perfected your religion for you, and have completed My blessing upon you, and chosen Islam as Dīn (religion and a way of life) for you. But whoever is compelled by extreme hunger, having no inclination towards sin, then Allah is Most-Forgiving, Very-Merciful.
[5:4]
They ask you as to what has been made lawful for them. Say, “Made lawful for you are good things, and (hunting through) birds and beasts of prey that you train, teaching them out of what Allah has taught you. So, eat of what they hold for you, and recite the name of Allah upon it.” Fear Allah. Surely, Allah is swift at reckoning.
It has been stated clearly in my prophet’s last sermon which I’ll be presenting here briefly.
“Hurt no one so that no one may hurt you. Remember that you will indeed meet your Lord, and that He will indeed reckon your deeds”. …
…“Do not therefore do injustice to yourselves. Remember one day you will meet Allah and answer your deeds. So beware: do not stray from the path of righteousness after I am gone.
O People, no prophet or apostle will come after me, and no new faith will be born. Reason well, therefore, O People, and understand my words which I convey to you.
I leave behind me two things, the Qur'an and my Sunnah and if you follow these you will never go astray”.
Tue May 25, 03:32:00 AM 2010 
 srizals said...
How could God be the one that ask his creation to do evil? It doesn’t make any sense at all. Your question is a probability that had not and would not occur.
[3:104]
There has to be a group of people from among you who call towards the good, and bid the Fair and forbid the Unfair. And it is these who are successful.
[3:105]
Do not be like those who became divided and fell into disputes after the clear signs had come to them. Those are the ones for whom there is a grave punishment
[3:106]
on a day when some faces shall turn bright, and some faces shall turn dark. As for those whose faces turn dark, (they shall be questioned): “Did you disbelieve after you had accepted the Faith? Now taste the punishment, because you used to disbelieve.”
[3:107]
As for those whose faces turn bright, they will rest in Allah’s mercy. They will live there forever.
[3:108]
These are the verses of Allah We recite to you with all veracity. Allah does not intend to do injustice to (anyone in) the worlds.
I know what you are trying to do psybermonkey. It won’t work on me. If I had said yes, you would say that it is the reason why you can’t accept the existence of a God, if I had said no, you would still say it as the logical reason for not accepting a God as a ruler of what is good and bad. Where’s my answers?
I'm not here to convince anyone TaoCat. It is beyond me.
Tue May 25, 03:34:00 AM 2010 
 srizals said...
The religion of God has been perfected. No other new revelation or prophet will be coming.
If you referred to the ancient people of Israel, they had demanded what modern day atheists had demanded, they would only believe in God that they can see and comprehend physically, even Moses was not able to see God, so how could I? They were very stubborn and liked to play around with their prophet like Steve has said, all the trouble and lengthy explanation about the description of a cow. What Steve has failed to understand, the incident showed how arrogant and reluctant they were in obeying their own prophet which had given the order from their Lord in the first place. And they are still making it a habit for us all to see regarding Palestine.
[5:12]
Allah has made the Children of Israel take a pledge. We appointed twelve chiefs from among them. Allah said, “I am surely with you. If you establish Salāh, and pay Zakāh, and believe in My Messengers, and hold them in reverence, and advance to Allah a goodly loan, I shall certainly write off your evil deeds, and I shall certainly admit you into Gardens beneath which rivers flow. So, whoever from you disbelieves after that has lost the straight path.”
[5:13]
So, because they broke their pledge, We cursed them and made their hearts hardened. They change words from their places, and they have overlooked a good deal of the Advice they were given. Every now and then you come across a certain treachery from all of them, except a few. So, forgive them and forego. Indeed, Allah loves those who are good in deeds.
You have to give an example of hideous and vile things that were commanded by God in the Koran as proof God would give an order to such a thing. Not making a probability out of impossibility.
Steve has managed to show how bad god is through the bible, I wonder if he could do that in the Koran. Every action has consequences. Everyone is well informed of this in a very clear manner. God didn't intend His creation to end up in Hell and suffer great mischief here and in the next life by guiding us clearly. It is our own arrogance that had blinded us.
[50:24]
(Then it will be said,) “Cast, (O two angels,) into Jahannam (Hell) every obstinate disbeliever
[50:25]
who used to prevent (others) from good (behavior), who transgressed all bounds, who cast doubts (in true faith),
[50:26]
who set up another god along with Allah. So cast him (O angels) in the painful punishment.”
[50:27]
His (evil) companion (i.e. the Satan) will say, “O our Lord, I did not cause him to rebel, but he was himself (involved) in straying far from the track.”
[50:28]
He (Allah) will say, “Do not quarrel before Me, while I had sent to you My threat well in advance.
[50:29]
The Word is not changed with Me, and I Am not so unjust to My servants.
Tue May 25, 03:34:00 AM 2010 
 srizals said...
Hadith Qudsi 17,
‘O My servants, I have forbidden oppression for Myself and have made it forbidden amongst you, so do not oppress one another. O My servants, all of you are astray except for those I have guided, so seek guidance of Me and I shall guide you. O My servants, all of you are hungry except for those I have fed, so seek food of Me and I shall feed you. O My servants, all of you are naked except for those I have clothed, so seek clothing of Me and I shall clothe you. O My servants, you sin by night and by day, and I forgive all sins, so seek forgiveness of Me and I shall forgive you. O My servants, you will not attain harming Me so as to harm Me, and you will not attain benefiting Me so as to benefit Me. O My servants, were the first of you and the last of you, the human of you and the jinn of you to be as pious as the most pious heart of any one man of you, that would not increase My kingdom in anything. O My servants, were the first of you and the last of you, the human of you and the jinn of you to be as wicked as the most wicked heart of any one man of you, that would not decrease My kingdom in anything. O My servants, were the first of you and the last of you, the human of you and the jinn of you to rise up in one place and make a request of Me, and were I to give everyone what he requested, that would not decrease what I have, any more than a needle decreases the sea if put into it. O My servants, it is but your deeds that I reckon up for you and then recompense you for, so let him who finds good praise Allah and let him who finds other than that blame no one but himself.’” - related by Muslim (also by at-Tirmidhi and Ibn Majah).
Psybermonkey, to look for something, you must have an idea and the right tools to look for it in the first place. Things near to us would be a good medium of comprehension. To understand certain things, we have to observe and compare them with one another. Since the dark nature of man exist in all of us, the quantity, frequency and the reason behind such equation should be taken into consideration in order to make sense of them.
Some say it is their right to do anything according to their will even though it is offensive and uncalled-for, but when someone else did it to them, the first rule is void hence it is only reserved for them. What kind of judgement is this? The thinking of a higher being? Or just plainly snobbish? You on the other hand are trying to show your superiority by oppressing the Muslim and pushed them into a corner in the cyber world like what your military is doing now in their homeland in the real world. And you are wondering how hostile some of them they are. Haven’t you learned physics?
I'm just explaining some relevant concept of things in Islam regarding our discussion. I'm not trying to influence you or make you a believer. It is beyond me.
Tue May 25, 04:11:00 AM 2010 
 srizals said...
Psybermonkey,
You have prescribed all Muslims with the likes of the few that has abandoned the teaching of their faith and chose a violent way to respond to aggression, both in intellect and bloody conflict, and yet, you have rejected my mentioning about the conduct and behaviour of the majority of atheists, not the minority nor a handful, but a well organised and powerful governments and organisations, not in an act of defence and retaliation, but in the act of aggression and oppression. What they had done is simply irrelevant. You don’t like to be associated with the likes of them. Muslims on the other hand are not entitled to your exclusive privilege.
You are using a Christian point of view to ask me a question as a generalisation of your comprehension on religion.
Regarding your question psybermonkey, this is what you should know about God according to Islam,
A saying of Muhammad, narrated by Muslim: Hadith Qudsi 1.
“When Allah decreed the Creation He pledged Himself by writing in His book which is laid down with Him: ‘My mercy prevails over my wrath.”
The Koran,
[10:44]
Surely, Allah does not wrong people at all, but the people do wrong their own selves.
Unlike the descriptions of god in other religion, God in Islam has laid a foundation and law to Himself and His creation known as Sunnatullah. Sunnatullah means the law that binds Him and His creation made by Him. For example, He has forbidden cruelty for Him. If you care to read the Koran you’ll find the verses explaining that even when God is above others, He didn’t act like a crazy person that will do whatever crossed his mind just because He has the ultimate power and no one could and should question Him. In Islam, God is unlike anything and do not possess the attributes of His creation. Man in the other hand, is in complete contrast.
I have answered your question or at least have tried to. You on the other hand, did not. None of you. How could I answer yes or no, since your definition of God is someone that would ask me to do hideous and vile things that contradict any nature of goodness and he is god? For me it is more an assumption and probability than a question.
Hadith Qudsi 16,
“Allah has written down the good deeds and the bad ones.” Then He explained it [by saying that] “he who has intended a good deed and has not done it, Allah writes it down with Himself as a full good deed, but if he has intended it and has done it, Allah writes it down with Himself as from ten good deeds to seven hundred times, or many times over. But if he has intended a bad deed and has not done it, Allah writes it down with Himself as a full good deed, but if he has intended it and has done it, Allah writes it down as one bad deed.”- related by al-Bukhari and Muslim.
The Koran,
[10:35]
Say, “Is there any one from your associate-gods who guides to the truth?” Say, “Allah guides to the truth. Is, then, He who guides to the truth more worthy of being obeyed, or he who has no guidance at all unless he is guided (by someone else)? So, what has happened to you? How do you judge things?
Tue May 25, 04:11:00 AM 2010 
 psybermonkey said...
And so you have contradicted your own beliefs by saying such things. You have broken the core standards that people like yourself claim to be true of god:
1) Nothing is impossible of god.
Yet you say, "Such a question would not be considered as possible...No other new revelation or prophet can come."
2) You nor anyone else has the right to judge god due to his vast superiority and absolute authority; He makes the rules.
Yet you say, "Your definition of God is someone that would ask me to do hideous and vile things that contradict any nature of goodness and he is god?"
But srizals, according to your own standard, god makes the rules on what is ethical and so it would no longer be vile if he said so. He decides what is ethical, not you. Who are you to judge god, srizals? Like you said before, "He [God] is the most powerful above all, incomparable with all that exist here in the universe." So which is it?
This hypothetical question is designed to reveal on of two things...either reveal your strict obedience to god under any circumstances due to his absolute authority and ability to do anything, or reveal the fact that you contradict your own beliefs when it comes time to put them on the line - which you have clearly shown as outlined above.
So decide: is nothing impossible for god and does he have absolute authority over what is ethical? Or is god someone who does have his limits and whom we do have the right to judge? If the ladder is true, then go ahead and say it - since so far you've only contradicted yourself according to the standards of belief regarding god.
Yes, you have responded to my question. Before moving on however, I am giving you the chance to respond to your contradictory answers.
Tue May 25, 10:17:00 AM 2010 
 Srinivasan said...
Allow me to contribute to the great debate between psybermonkey and srizals.
Allah coming to someone and condoning rape, paedophilia etc. is not a hypothetical situation. It has happened. If you look at the Qur'an and the accompanying Hadiths and Siras, you will realise that Allah has indeed sanctioned such behaviour.
You see, Allah sent his greatest messenger, Mohammed, to the world as an exemplary human being. So every action that Mohammed performed is not only divinely sanctioned, it is to be emulated by all good Muslims throughout their lives. In the course of his life, Mohammed has committed the following:
Paedophila (carnal knowledge of his child-brde Aisha at age 9)
Rape (see above. Also, he raped women captured in battle, usually whilst the bodies of their slain fathers/husbands where still warm)
Murder (of apostates and Jews and pagans, in countless numbers. Most of the murders were carried out by his followers upon his instruction, but a few privileged individuals were personally despatched to Allah by Mohammed himself)
Muslims are indeed following in the footsteps of Mohammed today. So to answer psybermonkey's question on behalf of srizals: yes, a good Muslim will indeed rape, murder etc if Allah commands him to do so. Hope that helps srizals.
Tue May 25, 11:56:00 PM 2010 
 srizals said...
All hail to the mighty Kali. I can't have a quarrel with you since you're not a Brahmin. All talk with no proof and comparison? Don't forget your sacrifice to Kali now, Srinivasan. Suttee is enough for you.
Psybermonkey, it's your turn to answer my questions. Have you eaten your own words now? Let our readers read your explanation. If not, it's going to be a dull stereotype argument, won't it? You keep on asking, I keep on answering. Where's the fun in that?
Wed May 26, 09:35:00 AM 2010 
 psybermonkey said...
But srizals, you never actually answered my question. Sorry, but I'm not going to let you get away that easy. All you've responded with is an argument for why it's "a wrong question." As I have just shown, you contradict yourself in such reasoning and so now it is time to fairly answer it in accordance with the hypothetical format.
So simply decide: is nothing impossible for god and does he have absolute authority over what is ethical? If so, what would you do if he came to you and commanded such things?
Or, is god someone who does have his limits and whom we do have the right to judge? If the ladder is true, then just go ahead and say it - since so far you've only contradicted yourself according to the standards of belief regarding god.
I'm not going to answer your questions if you're not going to play fair and adequately answer mine. All you've done so far is try to get out of doing so. Now that I've shown you why your reasoning is flawed and contradictory, it's time to actually give an answer.
Wed May 26, 11:49:00 AM 2010 
 Srinivasan said...
Srizals, I fail to understand what Kali (whatever that is) or suttee have anything to do with my comment or me. Was that supposed to be an insult? You don't know shit about me so stop making assumptions based on my name. Is that the best you could come up with since you could not counter my statements? I decided to respond to you after reading your comments; you came across as a Muslim with a decent thinking brain, as opposed to the majority of your brethren who spout mindless drivel/personal attacks in support of their ideology. Was I wrong?
You want proof? Of what? Of Mohammed's excesses? Well, like they say, the proof is in the pudding. Just open up your Qur'an and Ahadith and you will see. Maybe you should open your eyes before that.
Wed May 26, 08:59:00 PM 2010 
 srizals said...
Srinivasan said,
Srizals, I fail to understand what Kali (whatever that is) or suttee have anything to do with my comment or me.
Sorry to say this, it's not the only thing that you fail to understand. Read your own comment and then judge my response to you.
Then tell me, Srinivasan. What are you?
Thu May 27, 06:57:00 AM 2010 
 Ritchie Annand said...
I think what srizals must want is counter-quotes from the Qur'an.
[5:38]
As for the thief, both male and female, cut off their hands. It is the reward of their own deeds, an exemplary punishment from Allah. Allah is Mighty, Wise.
[5:51]
O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.
[5:80]
Thou seest many of them making friends with those who disbelieve. Surely ill for them is that which they themselves send on before them: that Allah will be wroth with them and in the doom they will abide.
or some of the wonderful hadiths like:
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdullah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews."
That's fun, too.
It's just like quoting the OT or NT that way.
Sat May 29, 09:09:00 AM 2010 
 Srinivasan said...
Srizals,
I am very clear on what I wrote. I can't say the same about you. You don't even counter my comments with valid arguments.
And what do you care what I am? Whatever I am, I am not a "submitter" like you, if you know what I mean.
Sun May 30, 07:16:00 PM 2010 
 Ritchie Annand said...
I'm worried about the boy, not in the least for this on his blogger profile:
I'm disappearing. I'm coming for the haters n liars in my own land, The Blessed lands of the Malay. Pray for me. These people may inflict harm, no I'm not afraid of me. N I don't want 2 run amok n killed everyone of course. It would be useless n meaningless. Keep my identity a secret. If not. I would have 2 terminate U on the spot. Nah, Just kiddin. Don't get jumpy now.
"Coming for"?
Errr, um.
He also follow Denyse O'Leary's blog. That's less worrisome, but still a bad sign as to his truth detection system.
How can someone who has such a good list of favourite movies go so wrong?
Tue Jun 01, 10:09:00 AM 2010 
 Srinivasan said...
he says he's disappearing. looks like he has kept to his words...
Tue Jun 01, 08:23:00 PM 2010 
 srizals said...
Are you a thief Annand? Only thieves would be greatly concerned about this verse. Then tell me, what's your solution to the man creature that loves to steal and kill or inflict grievous pain to their victims in the process of stealing? Surely his victims had lost more than a hand. What made the victims have the right to suffer him? Madoff got it with a smile on his face. What possibly could stop all the thieves from the temptation? Give an alternative please.
Current examples are enough to answer your futile attempt to misquote the verses Annand.
But to lessen your fear, these verses are only a threat to those who harbour ill intentions towards the Muslims. Those who do not, no matter who they are, are not included. For example, no Muslims are killing you for being what you are. But don't be in their country, killing them and laughing at them in their own homeland. You're an oppressor that loves to kill and maim, should you expect any less from your victims?
Wed Jun 02, 07:31:00 AM 2010 
 srizals said...
These people may inflict harm, no I'm not afraid of me. N I don't want 2 run amok n killed everyone of course. It would be useless n meaningless.
It would be useless n meaningless.
Now I'm wondering why do some people think that atheists are so smart. They can't even grasp what they are reading. Hmm..
Wed Jun 02, 07:38:00 AM 2010 
 Srinivasan said...
srizals wrote:
"Now I'm wondering why do some people think that atheists are so smart. They can't even grasp what they are reading. Hmm.."
Maybe it's because of your grasp of the English language srizals...
Wed Jun 02, 08:24:00 PM 2010 
 srizals said...
Maybe Srinivasan, maybe..
Wed Jun 02, 09:00:00 PM 2010 
 srizals said...
For the sake of arguments Ritchie, I’ll provide the ones that you have left out.
[5:38]
As for a man or a woman who commits theft, cut off the hands of both to punish them for what they earned,-a deterrent punishment from Allah. Allah is Mighty, Wise.
[5:39]
Whoever repents after his transgression and corrects himself, then Allah shall relent towards him. Surely, Allah is Most-Forgiving, Very-Merciful.
[5:40]
Do you not know that to Allah alone belongs the kingdom of the heavens and the earth? He punishes whomsoever He wills and forgives whomsoever He wills. Allah is powerful over everything.
[5:41]
O Messenger, those who race towards disbelief should not be a cause of grief for you, be they from those who say with their mouths, “We believe”, while their hearts do not believe, or from those who are (pronounced) Jews. They are listeners to the fallacy, listeners to other people who did not come to you. They distort the words after they had been properly placed. They say, “If you are given this, take it, and if you are not given this, then avoid it.” The one whom Allah wills to put to trial, you cannot do anything for him against Allah. They are the ones whose hearts Allah did not intend to purify. For them there is humiliation in this world, and for them there is a great punishment in the Hereafter.
[5:42]
They are listeners to the fallacy, devourers of the unlawful. So, if they come to you, judge between them or turn away from them. If you turn away from them, they can do you no harm. But if you judge, judge between them with justice. Surely, Allah loves those who do justice.
[5:43]
How do they ask you to judge while the Torah is with them, having the ruling of Allah? Still, they turn away, after all that. They are no believers.
Thu Jun 03, 03:32:00 AM 2010 
 srizals said...
[5:67]
O Messenger, convey all that has been sent down to you from your Lord. If you do not, then you shall not have conveyed His message (at all). Allah shall protect you from the people. Surely, Allah does not lead the disbelieving people to the right path.
[5:68]
Say, “O people of the Book, you have nothing to stand on, unless you uphold the Torah and the Injīl and what has been sent down to you from your Lord.” What has been sent down to you from your Lord will certainly make many of them more persistent in rebellion and disbelief. So, do not grieve over the disbelieving people.
[5:69]
Surely, those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Sabians, and the Christians - whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day, and acts righteously, shall have no fear, nor shall such people grieve.
[5:70]
Certainly We took a pledge from the children of Isrā’īl and sent Messengers to them. Whenever a Messenger went to them with what did not meet their desires, they cried lie to some, and killed others.
[5:71]
They thought that no harm would follow. Therefore, they became blind and deaf. Then, Allah accepted their repentance, but again they turned blind and deaf, many of them. Allah is watchful of what they do.
[5:72]
Surely, disbelievers are those who say, “Allah is the MasīH, son of Maryam” while the MasīH had said, “O children of Isrā’īl , worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.” In fact, whoever ascribes any partner to Allah, Allah has prohibited for him the Jannah (the Paradise), and his shelter is the Fire, and there will be no supporters for the unjust.
[5:73]
Surely, disbelievers are those who say, “Allah is the third of the three” while there is no god but One God. If they do not desist from what they say, a painful punishment shall certainly befall such disbelievers.
[5:74]
Why then do they not turn to Allah in repentance and seek His forgiveness, while Allah is most forgiving, very merciful?
[5:75]
The MasīH, son of Maryam, is no more than a Messenger. There have been messengers before him. His mother was very truthful. Both of them used to eat food. Look how We explain signs to them, then see how far they are turned away.
[5:76]
Say, “Do you worship, besides Allah, what has no power to do you harm or bring you benefit?” Allah is the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing.
Thu Jun 03, 03:33:00 AM 2010 
 srizals said...
[5:44]
Surely We have sent down the Torah, in which there was guidance and light by which the prophets, who submitted themselves to Allah, used to judge for the Jews, and (so did) the Men of Allah and the Men of knowledge, because they were ordained to protect the Book of Allah, and they stood guard over it. So, (O Jews of today,) do not fear people. Fear Me, and do not take a paltry price for My verses. Those who do not judge according to what Allah has sent down are the disbelievers.
[5:45]
We prescribed for them therein: A life for a life, an eye for an eye, a nose for a nose, an ear for an ear and a tooth for a tooth; and for wounds, an equal retaliation. Then, if one forgives it, that will be expiation for him. Those who do not judge according to what Allah has sent down, they are the unjust.
[5:46]
We sent ‘Īsā son of Maryam after those prophets, confirming the Torah that was (revealed) before him, and We gave him the Injīl having guidance and light therein, and confirming the Torah that was (revealed) before it; a guidance and a lesson for the God-fearing.
[5:47]
And the people of the Injīl must judge according to what Allah has sent down therein. Those who do not judge according to what Allah has sent down, they are the sinners.
[5:48]
We have sent down to you the Book with truth, confirming the Book before it, and a protector for it. So, judge between them according to what Allah has sent down, and do not follow their desires against the truth that has come to you. For each of you We have made a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made a single community of people, but (He did not), so that He may test you in what He has given to you. Strive, then, to excel each other in good deeds. To Allah is the return for all of you. Then Allah shall tell you about that in which you disputed.
[5:49]
We order you to judge between them according to what Allah has sent down. Do not follow their desires, and beware of them, lest they should turn you away from some of what Allah has sent down to you. If they turn away, be assured that Allah intends to make them suffer for some of their sins. Surely, many of the people are sinners.
[5:50]
Is it, then, the judgement of (the days of) Ignorance that they seek? Who is better in judgement than Allah, for a people who believe?
[5:51]
O you who believe, do not take the Jews and the Christians for intimate friends. They are friends to each other. Whoever takes them as intimate friends is one of them. Surely, Allah does not take the unjust people to the right path.
Thu Jun 03, 03:33:00 AM 2010 
 srizals said...
[5:77]
Say, O people of the Book, be not excessive in your religion unjustly, and do not follow the desires of a people who have already gone astray, misled many and lost the right path.
[5:78]
On those who disbelieve from among the children of Isrā’īl , a curse was pronounced by Dawūd and ‘Īsā, Son of Maryam. All this because they disobeyed and used to cross the limits
[5:79]
They did not forbid each other from any evil they committed. Evil indeed is what they have been doing.
[5:80]
You see many of them take the infidels (the pagans) for friends. Indeed, evil is what they have sent ahead for themselves, for Allah is angry with them, and they are to remain in torment for ever.
[5:81]
If they believed in Allah, in the prophet, and in what had been sent down to him, they would have not taken them (the pagans) for friends, but many of them are sinners.
[5:82]
And you will certainly find that the people most hostile against the believers are the Jews and the ones who ascribe partners to Allah. You will certainly find that the closest of them in friendship with the believers are those who say, “We are Christians.” That is because among them there are priests and monks, and because they are not arrogant.
[5:83]
When they hear what has been sent down to the Messenger, you will see their eyes overflowing with tears because of the truth they have recognized. They say, “Our Lord, we have come to believe. So, record us along with those who bear witness.
[5:84]
What excuse do we have if we do not believe in Allah and in the truth that has come to us, while we hope that our Lord will admit us to the company of the righteous people?”
[5:85]
So, because of what they said, Allah has awarded them gardens beneath which rivers flow, wherein they will live forever. That is the reward of those who are good in their deeds.
[5:86]
But those who disbelieved and denied Our signs, they are the people of the Fire.
But there is a story behind it. It is known as Asbabun Nuzul, the reason behind the revelations of the verses. They don't just pop up out of nowhere. Complementing each other in a book that would take 23 years in the making.
Thu Jun 03, 03:40:00 AM 2010 
 Ritchie Annand said...
Good grief, Srizals, you're defending that barbaric practice?
"Only thieves would be concerned", really? One would think with the list of movies you purport to like, you would know that 'the only people who need fear extreme punishments are criminals' is one of the hallmarks of slipping into a totalitarian regime.
An alternative? How about... just about anything else? Jail time may not be ideal, but 'sorry mate, er, here's your hands back'. How about Scandinavian-style restitution, for those who are able?
"Surely his victims had lost more than a hand." It makes no distinction other than extenuating circumstances for the poor. Is a bicycle worth a hand? A car? No.
Current examples are enough to answer your futile attempt to misquote the verses Annand.
You will need to do more than wave your hand to demonstrate that I am misquoting, Srizals.
5:80 looks to me, for example, as though Muslims who dare make friends with a non-Muslim are doomed by an angry Allah to hell.
Am I wrong about this? Do Muslims only consider this in historical and not present context?
But to lessen your fear, these verses are only a threat to those who harbour ill intentions towards the Muslims.
No, they're not. Never mind the harm done to interfaith relations by divinely-ordered xenophobia, you share a country with other faiths, yet seem compelled to "do something about it". What is your litmus test for "ill intentions"? How large a line do you yourself draw between killing and depicting the Prophet (to tie back in to the whole point of the original post)?
Are the FPI, MMI and HTI going to gain ground? What will be their treatment of other faiths? Will it be religiously motivated? How about Aceh's implementation of Shari'a, which was purportedly going to be an 'adjunct' to civil law, but we hear tales told of passing stoning laws, antithetical to almost every modern interpretation of human rights?
Now I'm wondering why do some people think that atheists are so smart. They can't even grasp what they are reading. Hmm..
I see. So your strategy is to be unclear, act smart and claim victory in advance? I'm sure it makes you feel better, but from the outside, it looks like you have stopped engaging in objective consideration and set your mind in stone.
That's not a virtue.
Also, you've flipped my first and last name - I'm Scottish, not Indian :) Terimah kasih.
Fri Jun 04, 10:24:00 PM 2010 
 Ritchie Annand said...
What do you think of Queen Rania, by the way?
Fri Jun 04, 11:32:00 PM 2010 
 srizals said...
For an adulterer to be stoned to death, he or she must have taste sex through marriage before engaging in illegal sex. But having not enough of this privilege which was bound by holy matrimony and follow with it, responsibility. But still, to impose such law, required a thorough scrutiny. Four pious men known for their piousness must be the witnesses of such indecent act that they are required to witness the insertion of the man into the woman, both willingly. They would not be pious in the first place, if they were like peeping Toms if you know what I mean. For having this almost impossible rule that governing the law, it shown to us, the nature of this law. And foremost, the conditions needed to implement such laws are almost in a euphoria kind of state, where no poverty and difficulties to marry exist in the perfect Muslim community where the reasons and causes that would motivate such crime are almost non-existence. What more in a poverty ridden and dysphoria state of war torn countries. It is impossible to seek justice in an anarchy surrounding.
The numbers of those who had lost their hands and lives in the so-called barbaric laws are not even comparable with the numbers that had lost their lives and limbs in Western abortion laws, current illegal wars, previous sanction on Iraq and the West bloody history. The inquisitions, Protestant vs. Catholic wars and colonialism.
Antithetical is a funny thing. To some, abortion is unethical, to some it matters not. Human right is also a funny thing. It seems to be reserved to some and not applicable to many. You seem to be more concerned on how Muslims treat criminals that would have caused a more heinous crime to happen. What about the West’s treatment to the non criminal entities, the babies resulted in free sex activities and the civilians that died in West initiated wars?
My country didn’t implement the stoning and the cutting of the hands of thieves based on the reasons I’ve explicitly mentioned above. No Muslim nations accused us as being un-Islamic. Should you?
Queen Rania is a wonderful Muslimah and a fine example for them. If only she would cover her beauty more and not exposed it to undeserving men. She’s not perfect, just like me and you. But her goodness and efforts much outweighed her weaknesses. Incomparable to me and you. Why? Where are you getting at Annand?
Ill intentions in regarding supporting the killing and oppressions of Muslims, as in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Palestine. Direct involvement would be considered as a hostile move. Just kill the killers please. Leave the civilians alone. Wouldn’t you be curious that Germany is not that willingly to obey and simply follow others to the meat grinder?
As for Front Pembela Islam, Hizbut Tahrir Indonesia, Majelis Mujahidin Indonesia and so on, it is crucially depends on how the West is conducting itself in the so-call human rights and justice that they are claiming as championing. The double standard treatment and conduct is heavily misleading. As for the selective blindness of some of the Westerners nowadays. When the reason to hate is gone, so would they.
Now, my turn.
1. What is your solution to the abortion issues in the West?
2. What is your solution to the sexual problems in the West?
3. What is your opinion on Dier Yassin?
4. What is the reason that made most Muslims resent the West nowadays? Envy?
5. Do you think that Israel is a totalitarian regime? If not, why?
6. What is your opinion in targeting civilians in wars and sanctions? Are they barbaric or not?
Sat Jun 05, 06:44:00 PM 2010 
 srizals said...
The current situation I’m referring is about the armed and hostile treatment of the mighty nuclear powered Israelis towards Muslims. Which I will quote briefly,
“Nine Turkish men on board the Mavi Marmara were shot a total of 30 times and five were killed by gunshot wounds to the head, according to the vice-chairman of the Turkish council of forensic medicine, which carried out the autopsies for the Turkish ministry of justice”.
They were peace activists attacked in a very intimidating manner in the blackness of the night, on international water with no lethal arms to do any harm. You just don’t simply machine gunned people that attack you with small pocket knives or sticks and you were the ones that startled them in the blindness of the night in the first place.
I am making friends with you, and so? You see, that is why I’m here. To stop the prejudice and the hatred among us. Through dialogue and conversation. But when it comes down to ignoring the brutalities and oppressions faced by Muslims and Christians in the occupied lands of Palestine, it would be better of course, for Muslims to reflect this historical events that have been stated in the Koran, like in 5:80:
[5:78]
On those who disbelieve from among the children of Isrā’īl , a curse was pronounced by Dawūd and ‘Īsā, Son of Maryam. All this because they disobeyed and used to cross the limits
[5:79]
They did not forbid each other from any evil they committed. Evil indeed is what they have been doing.
The current state of Israel has disobeyed and cross the limits of many international laws and humanity values. The only reason that it is so cocky is that the West, if not majority of them, supported them fully for guilt and of course the hidden agenda to destabilize Muslim worlds.
Dier Yassin, Sabra and Shatilla, recent Gaza attacks had shown to us how the IDF had crossed the limits. They compared the fire crackers hole in the ground and houses with craters of the size of a football field as a comparison of the deadly threat they were having from Hamas. The Palestinians had shown their kind and honest gestures of peace by returning to Gaza and the West Bank, to initiate the peace process, which many Muslims had anticipated it as just a trick to hold them down in the largest confinements in the world today. They are merely sitting ducks. And the true nature of the peace loving Israelis is revealing itself day by day. Egypt and Turkey still have contact with them, trying to assure them that Muslims aren’t looking for their destructions, with the Israelis successfully proved that Egypt and Turkey were wrong in trusting them to the rest of the Muslim nations.
You call the law of cutting of hand of a thief and stoning as a barbaric law. What about what the West were and are doing now to unwanted result of their limitless freedom in sexual adventures? Millions of babies aborted and countless more afflicted with sexual transmitted diseases. Is that not barbaric?
What about the victims of the theft? What made them deserved the barbaric act of their tormentors, the thieves? The loss of the loved ones, who were hurt, killed, slashed, beaten to death and rape accompanying the act of stealing?
Even to this extent, the thief is spared with tight regulations in facing his justice. There are considerations to be taken into account. The amount and the value of the stolen product. The reason of the theft, was it because of hunger and depravation of the basic needs of the living and social justice.
Sat Jun 05, 06:44:00 PM 2010 
 TaoCat said...
srizals-
Nice mental gymnastics on the adultery thing. I'm sure it was a huge comfort to all the women killed for being adulterers.
As to the rest, all you are saying is "western civilisation has problems too, therefore I'm right! Ha ha!"
Very bad news, I'm afraid. That isn't the way rational arguments work, especially since this whole blog is in opposition to western civilisation's largest institutions, chritianity. That it has problems is no surprise to anybody posting here.
So the reason that most people are ignoring you now is that you are both ill-informed (which could be amusing) and boring (which is not.)
No thanks are necessary, srizals.
Sun Jun 06, 09:56:00 PM 2010 
 TaoCat said...
Oh, also...your avatar is that of Guy Fawkes, an ardent catholic christian. He failed too. Just sayin'.
Sun Jun 06, 10:18:00 PM 2010 
 Srinivasan said...
Srizals,
Your blogspot is charmingly titled "overturning lies and hate".
Did you realise your Allah is the greatest of the haters? More than half of the Qur'an is filled with hatred and anger. So what do you have to say about that?
You like to quote your Qur'an with a quick cut-and-paste job but you fail to provide answers to the real questions.
Here's a question of my own: Allah, according to your ideology, only allows Muslims (people who declare the Shahada, among other things) into Jannat, so by that account, do you believe the following people are currently residing in Jahanam, or will end up there on the day of judgement:
Mahatma Gandhi
Martin Luther King
Mother Teresa
Andrew Carnegie.
Andrew who? Y'know, that guy who lived in America, an agnostic who donated $350,000,000(yes, that's 350 million bucks) over a hundred years ago for charity, uplifting the lives of millions.
(Bracing for another long deluge of cut-and-paste quotes...)
Mon Jun 07, 08:03:00 PM 2010 
 srizals said...
Srinivasan claimed "More than half of the Qur'an is filled with hatred and anger"
Prove it first Srinivasan, only then your question has some credibility to be entertained by me. Neither of you even dared to answer mine, but gave excuses of this and that, like a teenager trying to escape from their misadventure.
As for those who do good deeds but neglect their Creator, knowingly, they have lost their afterlife. However, all the goodness in this life would be theirs.
As for those who do good deeds but do not know about Islam. Allah will judge them accordingly. Allah is just. Those who denied Him, knowingly, would have to bear the consequences of course.
Christianity may be a problem to you, Taocat, but for me, it is just a phase like all the phases of life that a person must go through. Some may get through it, and proceed, while most, would not. It depends on their perception and ken, I guess. But don't give up. Do good, avoid evil, don’t stop evaluating, eventually you'll open your eyes and wake up from your dream world.
Wed Jun 09, 12:51:00 AM 2010 
 TaoCat said...
"Do good, avoid evil, don’t stop evaluating, eventually you'll open your eyes and wake up from your dream world."
Hmmm. I believe in science and rational thought. You believe in a vengeful, gibbering god that has all the morality of a syphilitic rat. And you think I'm in the dream world.
They've found areas in the brain corresponding to religious "faith." I have hope that one bright day, we will have a cure.
Wed Jun 09, 09:21:00 AM 2010 
 srizals said...
Science? Isn't it through science and reason, man had poisoned, polluted, killed in mass all that had lived in a very gruesome way? Science and reasons without guidance of faith, that instil with it, mercy and fear of divine retribution, would be very destructive, as it has demonstrated in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, The Togo Unit or Unit 731. The Great Purge or Stalin's reason that if one can't prove his worthiness, what's the reason to keep him or her alive, were entirely 'rational'. Mao’s campaign to suppress counterrevolutionaries and Pol Pot’s S 21, and current Myanmar. Most of the gruesome atrocities were based on Science and the thinking of the likes of you, I'm afraid.
You have purposely ignored what drove a handful of Muslims mad and chosen a bloody retaliation against a bloody oppression for almost 70 years! You are afraid to comment on Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan and Palestine as if they are inconvenient truth to you. Lies seem to be dominating your conduct and history. No wonder you are oblivious why the so-called terrorists are so damn mad at you. You’re killing their babies and families, destroying and plundering their lands, knowingly and supporting their killers and heartless oppressors! Ten of thousands of fancy GIs, fat military contractors are now plundering Afghanistan against a mere 100 Al Qaeda operatives and less than 20 k Taliban fighters. Trust me; they are not avenging 9/11/2001. They are making profit out of it, on the expenses of the deluded bunch like you. The Taliban did offer the USA that the so-called Terror planner to be judge in a neutral country for a fair trial, but the proud US simply answered with Tomahawks. On August 20, 1998, the US tried to kill Osama in Khost and bombed Khartoum, also with Tomahawks; they were all based on inconclusive theory of the attack on US embassies on August 7, 1998 in Kenya and Tanzania. The death tolls and destructions that follow suit the Egyptian terrorist attacks on the embassies, far out-weighted any just ‘reason’ for justice since none of the responsible attackers were the countries being invaded and destroyed. The attackers were individuals, not countries. Where’s the reason in that? But a country and a powerful military alliance did attack the Muslim nations I’ve mentioned. And before you said they had it coming, know this, the USA meddling in killing and capturing the terrorist members to Egypt and US short meddling in Somalia in 1993 -1994, exposed them to the attack in the first place. You have to seek out the first domino in order to understand the domino effect, Taocat. The US can’t seem to work out a diplomatic solution and Interpol to track down just the terrorists. It had to destroy and obliterate to save its pride. The UK just tagged along and brought the terrorists’ menace back to its homeland. They are still confused and blind, most of them anyway. Some are beginning to see and understand.
Tell me Taocat or others; what is your opinion in the invasion of Iraq in fear of Saddam’s possession of WMD, the bombing of a factory in suspicion producing chemical weapons in Khartoum and the story behind the abortion law in the USA? What about the destruction and death of those who never harm the West and approve the terrorists’ ideas? Would you like to share your scientific reasoning with us?
Wed Jun 09, 06:50:00 PM 2010 
 Srinivasan said...
Wow! A Mohammedan asking for proof! Yet you believe the Qur'an and your prophet wholesale without asking for proof. My proof is right there between the covers, if only you'll open your mind and read it. There's so much in there buddy. I can't possibly cut-and-paste everything like you are fond of doing.
Wed Jun 09, 07:03:00 PM 2010 
 TaoCat said...
Does it hurt much, srizals? It's amazing that you are so wilfully stupid as to decide what my political leanings are based on my lack of belief in a god. You drop a bunch of red herring arguments (what the hell does USA's Middle_east policy have to do with atheism?) and then cut-and-paste a bunch of drivel from that insane delusion you call religion.
As to science, get real. Science brings both good and bad, it's how you use it that counts. Your idea of an argument is laughable. But like most religious delusionists you simply keep on posting nonsense, then try to declare victory when people grow bored with your antics and stop posting.
Don't get your burka in a knot but your religion is a joke, you just haven't understood the punchline yet.
Wed Jun 09, 08:00:00 PM 2010 
 srizals said...
As expected, a cowardly response of a coward that hides behind a name and talk proudly without any substance in the internet. I leave it as it is for the whole wide world to see. Thank you Steve for being a good moderator. Catch you later Taocat and Srinivasan, whatever you are. It had been fun. Do whatever that suits you. You don't want to be late. Since being nothing is what you dream of. You have only demonstrated what you have accused of the Muslims. Congratulations.
Disclaimer: My discussions with these two unique creatures do not mean that these two represent their entity. These two are driven by blind hatred and completely oblivious of the world and the laws of cause and effect. Cheerio.
Thu Jun 10, 12:22:00 AM 2010 
 Srinivasan said...
Was that the punchline?
Thu Jun 10, 07:04:00 PM 2010 
 a@sd said...
this show that christens are real extremest
Wed Apr 20, 01:50:00 AM 2011 
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 13 May 2010The sword of the Lord is filled with blood
Okay, I don't know how that's possible. How can a sword be filled with blood?
But maybe it's just a metaphor. Maybe God doesn't even have a sword, and non-existent swords are rarely filled with blood. To find out, let's look at the context. Context, believers like to say, covers a multitude of sins.
The title quote comes from Isaiah, chapter 34. Let's start from verse 1.
Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it. Isaiah 34:1
So God is speaking here to the whole world about important stuff, things that really matter. "Let the earth hear, and all that is therein."
In the next verse, God starts to deliver his message. He is angry at all nations and all people. He has delivered them all to be slaughtered.
For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter. Isaiah 34:2
Now God gets into the gory details. He is going to kill so many people that land will stink from the rotting bodies and the mountains will be melted from all the blood.
Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. Isaiah 34:3
Next we're told that the stars will fall from the sky like figs from a fig tree.
And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. Isaiah 34:4
Verse five tells us this interesting fact: God's sword is bathed in heaven.
For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment. Isaiah 34:5
So we know that God has a sword in heaven and that is is bathed in something. Context tells us what that something is. It's blood.
God has a bloody sword in heaven. He carries it around with him all the time.
But the second part of verse 5 is a bit confusing. God's bloody sword is going to come down on Idumea and upon people that he curses.
Luckily I've got my Quest Study Bible (QSB) with me. It explains everything.
Who was Edom? (34:5)
Although this was a specific nation, here it symbolizes all the enemies of God and his people. Quest Study Bible, p. 1027
(The NIV has "Edom" for "Idumea" in the KJV.)
So, as the QSB explains, God's bloody sword is going to come down from heaven on God and Sarah Palin's enemies.
Now, let's go on to verse 6, which includes the title quote for this post.
The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea. Isaiah 34:6
"The sword of the Lord is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness." It has blood from the kidney fat of lambs, goats, rams, and humans.
Then God tells us about unicorns. The land of the unicorns will be soaked with blood and fat. I guess it's good to know that.
And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness. Isaiah 34:7
So there you have it. God has a blood-filled sword in heaven that he uses to kill animals and people. The ground will stink with dead bodies, the mountains will melt with blood, all the stars will fall from the sky, and the land of the unicorns will be soaked in blood and fat.
Or it could all just be a metaphor that means God is love, or something like that.
Yeah, that's probably it.
Posted by Steve Wells at 5/13/2010 11:49:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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9 comments:
 TaoCat said...
It's a good thing the bible is inerrant, or you'd think it was written by a bronze-age psychopath with heat stroke.
Thu May 13, 12:55:00 PM 2010 
 busterggi said...
If god was really cool he'd have a light saber or phaser.
Thu May 13, 05:46:00 PM 2010 
 TaoCat said...
Why is it that the christians defend certain bible passages (that whole rapture thing, for instance) but don't jump in at all when god decides to kill bunches of people in a temper-tantrum?
What's the context of this whole blood-lust thing anyway?
Thu May 13, 09:17:00 PM 2010 
 Matthew Blanchette said...
Is it just me, or did that passage sound like a cross between Rorschach from Watchmen and a demented version of The Last Unicorn?
"Unicorn carcass in alleyway this morning. Iron wheel tread on burst stomach. The land of Israel is afraid of me. I have seen its true face..."
Fri May 14, 12:56:00 AM 2010 
 Mushinronsha said...
I just pictured a unicorn slipping on a bloody floor like a cat made to wear socks. Funny in an odd little way...
Fri May 14, 02:30:00 AM 2010 
 busterggi said...
Matthew - Rorschach was never half as crazy as Yahweh.
Fri May 14, 05:29:00 PM 2010 
 3D said...
You know, it's getting to be where you can't have a nice murder by forced auto-cannibalism story anymore, without some damn boring unicorns ruining it a few verses later.
Sat May 15, 02:02:00 PM 2010 
 skanksta said...
Any believers care to talk me through this blood-related religious tragedy from England today ?
Jehovah's witness, 15 refuses blood transfusion when conscious and dies for his faith....
Sounds like a lovely kid, his parents are of course happy with his stance and think he's "with the angels" now..
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Jehovahs-Witness-Teenager-Refuses-Blood-Transfusion-Joshua-McAuley-Dies-From-Car-Crash-Injuries/Article/201005315634231?lpos=UK_News_Second_Home_Page_Article_Teaser_Region_6&lid=ARTICLE_15634231_Jehovahs_Witness_Teenager_Refuses_Blood_Transfusion:_Joshua_McAuley_Dies_From_Car_Crash_Injuries
Tue May 18, 12:32:00 PM 2010 
 TaoCat said...
Hello..believers..? *cricket chirps*
Thu May 20, 02:13:00 PM 2010 
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 12 May 2010What do God, his victims, the animals that eat their dead bodies, and the Great Whore of Babylon all have in common?
They were, are, or will forever be drunk with blood.
The phrase “drunk with blood” (or variants of it) is used five times in the Bible. Let's take a look at them.
First of all, God used it to describe himself: his arrows are drunk with blood.
I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh. Deuteronomy 32:42
His sword is drunk with blood, too, just like his arrows.
This is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood. Jeremiah 46:10
And God will force people (before he kills them) to eat their own flesh and get drunk on their own blood.
I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine. Isaiah 49:26
Then God will feed his victims’ bodies to the birds and beasts until they too become drunk with blood.
Thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you … that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood. … And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you. Ezekiel 39.17-19
And finally, the Great Whore of Babylon will be drunk with the blood of the saints and martyrs.
And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. Revelation 17.5-6
So in the end, pretty much everyone will be drunk with blood: God, the people that he kills, the birds and beasts that eat their dead bodies, and the Great Whore of Babylon. It will be just one big, bloody, drunken party. I bet you can’t wait to be there!
Posted by Steve Wells at 5/12/2010 02:46:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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5 comments:
 busterggi said...
No wonder they call Jesus the Prince of Peace who loves everyone.
Thu May 13, 05:45:00 PM 2010 
 Matthew Blanchette said...
So... God can drink blood, but his Chosen People can't? Sucks to be Abraham van Helsing, then; God's a vampire! :-P
Fri May 14, 12:51:00 AM 2010 
 TaoCat said...
I'm trying to watch my weight...could I get a Blood Lite?
Fri May 14, 09:26:00 AM 2010 
 busterggi said...
Matthew - well of course!
What else would Jesus be what with rising from the grave & all? After all, zombies don't talk.
Fri May 14, 05:31:00 PM 2010 
 TaoCat said...
When will some christian gimme the context on this one? Is it possible there's parts of the bible that are just plain embarrasing to even the most "devout?"
Mon May 17, 02:29:00 PM 2010 
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 02 May 2010What to do with an unfaithful wife: The Bible vs. the Quran
Both holy books have specific instructions for a husband that suspects his wife has been unfaithful. Since over half of the world believes in one or the other, I thought it would be good to compare them here.
The Bible's instructions are in Numbers 5.
The first thing to notice about them is that these instructions are from God. It's not just Moses telling the people what to do; it's God.
The LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man's wife go aside, and commit a trespass against him, And a man lie with her carnally, and it be hid from the eyes of her husband ... and she be defiled, and there be no witness against her. Numbers 5:11-13
And notice, too, that the husband has no evidence here, only suspicion and jealousy. He didn't see his wife with another man and no one else did either.
So what does God tell the jealous husband to do?
Take her to a priest who will force her to drink some "bitter water."
Then shall the man bring his wife unto the priest ... And the priest shall ... set her before the LORD ... And he shall cause the woman to drink the bitter water. Numbers 5:15-24
If she is guilty, the bitter water will "make her thigh rot and her belly swell," and she will "become a curse among her people."
When he hath made her to drink the water, then ... if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, ... her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people. Numbers 5:27
But if the woman is innocent, then the bitter water won't cause her belly to swell and her thigh to rot, and she'll get pregnant. (Apparently, the swollen belly and the rotted thigh was God's way of giving an unfaithful wife an abortion -- or worse.)
If the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed. Numbers 5:28
In any case, whether she passes or fails the bitter water, belly swelling, thigh rotting, holy abortion test, the husband is completely blameless. But "the woman shall bear her iniquity."
Then shall the man be guiltless from iniquity, and this woman shall bear her iniquity. Numbers 5:31
OK. That's it. That's what God says a man should do if he suspects that his wife has been unfaithful.
Boy, that's going to be hard to beat! But let's see what the Quran says about it.
Luckily, the Quran deals with the same situation: a man who suspects that his wife has been unfaithful. Except that here the husband claims to be a witness of his wife's infidelity.
For those who accuse their wives but have no witnesses except themselves... Quran 24:6a
Now you might think that would be enough to prove the wife's adultery, but it isn't, becaue just two verses ago, the Quran says that four witnesses are required to convict a wife of adultery.
Those who accuse honourable women but bring not four witnesses, scourge them (with) eighty stripes and never (afterward) accept their testimony - They indeed are evil-doers. Quran 24:4
So what's a husband to do in this case? Well, Allah has that all figured out. The husband can just swear that it's true four separate times and that way he can serve as four separate witnesses.
For those who accuse their wives but have no witnesses except themselves let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies, (swearing) by Allah that he is of those who speak the truth. Quran 24:6
How cool is that?
Oh and then, swear one more time, just to make it all official llke. And this time ask Allah to curse you if you are lying. That ought to do it. (It's sort of like saying, "Cross my heart and hope to die" when swearing. No one would lie doing that!)
And yet a fifth, invoking the curse of Allah on him if he is of those who lie. Quran 24:7
So now there are five witnesses and we can get on with the punishment.
The woman can appeal the case, though, by swearing five times that she is innocent.
And it shall avert the punishment from her if she bear witness before Allah four times that the thing he saith is indeed false, And a fifth (time) that the wrath of Allah be upon her if he speaketh truth. Quran 24:8-9
I don't know what happens then. What do you do when you have two people that cross their hearts and hope to die on opposite sides of the same case? The Quran doesn't say and I don't think the Supreme Court has ever had a case like that.
So that's what the Bible and the Quran say a husband should do with an unfaithful wife.
Which procedure do you think is the best?
Posted by Steve Wells at 5/02/2010 08:00:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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35 comments:
 Matthew Blanchette said...
Both practices are absurd; the former would hold as much legal weight today as the medieval practice of slicing someone's hand, binding it without looking, and seeing if the wound heals (if the priest so desires, he can pretend to slice the hand, and claim it a miracle if it is unwrapped to be revealed as untouched), and the latter is as ridiculous a practice as slicing open a baby and giving each half to its claimed mother.
Religion can be so stupid when it comes to the law, can't it?
Sun May 02, 11:56:00 PM 2010 
 Liz said...
Context is so very important in these situations. Not only that but you have to read these verse in several translations to even claim to know anything of the meaning. Remember that these are translations of the original text, and so they can be interpreted by readers in very different ways. I personally prefer NIV. When looking up these verses I came to see several things I disagreed with you on.
1. These situations happened thousands of years ago, when times were very different, and women held very different positions in society. They were so much less than men. That's why I believe the husband is given the right, in this story, to come to the Priest simply upon suspicion.
2. You make the "bitter water" sound like a poison or a punishment. I don't think this is how the Lord expects us to deal with infidelity today. I think this was a test, at the time, as to whether she was guilty or not. It states that if she was innocent, no harm would come to her.
3. My strongest disagreement with you is the claim that the swelling in her thigh/abdomen was an abortion. I completely disagree. I believe God was making her infertile, not killing a child that lived in her womb. Infertility, at times, was a punishment in the Bible, seeing as producing offspring was so high a priority in that day and age.
4. Why should the husband not be blameless? Like I said, at that time women were less than men. He didn't go to her and argue, and fight, and cause pain in their relationship, he went to the Church, to someone wiser, and respected, who could bring the situation before God, and bring clarity.
After all I've said, again I want to say, I could be wrong. I am acknowledging that. These are my interpretations of what I've read, and therefore, I am not speaking for all Christians, or even for God; just for myself, in hopes you will be willing to read what I've said with an open mind, rather than scrutiny.
Mon May 03, 04:51:00 PM 2010 
 Sabriell111 said...
I feel very sorry for you Liz. The fact that you can read the verses and twist them into your own justifiable version is saddening. Especially considering your name, Liz, which I'm assuming you are a female. So as a female, you should take offense to God's judgment of women, right? You think it's ok that per God terms if your husband even slightly suspects that you've committed adultery regardless of the circumstances that you would have to be put through those tests. Do you think that men should be held to this regard too? It should be fair, right?
Regardless of whether you pull your verses from the watered-down translation, the loose translation, the misogynistic translation, or whatever other translated bible you'd like to read out of, those versions suit the author and that author wasn't god. Aren't you angry that you are pulling verses from a book that was translated hundreds and hundreds of times over throughout the last couple thousand years. So your version that you pull those verses from may not even be right.
What saddens me the most is that as a female, you can justify these actions. Regardless of whether the situation was different thousands of years ago does not justify the male-chauvinism of your god. As a female, you should be apalled. Women should never be less than men in any circumstance, as men should never be less than women. As a female myself, your justifications for your god makes me very sad.
I'll read with scrutiny b/c no idea, opinion, etc. will ever be made stronger w/o scrutiny.
Tue May 04, 02:00:00 PM 2010 
 MD1985 said...
Sabriel111:
Don't you think that you, the author of this site and anyone who comments in favour of what the author writes may also "read the verses and twist them into your own justifiable version" as much as what you think Liz does (and therefore what I must do also?)
I think the thing you need to remember about more recent translations are
1) they are translated from the Greek and Hebrew texts and manuscripts not from other translations (apart from maybe the Message Bible)
2) I would think that being a more recent translation would be in their favour as there have been recent discoveries that would help translation and understanding of the original manuscripts and
3) more time has passed since early translations, therefore translators would have had better resources and one would think a better understanding of the Greek/Hebrew/Aramaic language and manuscripts.
I think we need to remember that when Jesus came to establish a new covenant, it meant that the old one was redefined or replaced by the new. Jesus didn't follow the old covenant laws in regards to women. He treated them equally.
Examples are found right throughout the gospels:
He spoke to the Samaritan woman even though under Jewish rules this didn’t happen (John 4:7-10). He ignored rules/laws about impurity (Mar 5:25-34). He taught Mary and Martha (females) about the gospel (Luke 10:38). When travelling through cities to preach and spread the good news - He had female companions with Him (Luke 8:1-3). The first people He appeared to after he resurrected were females! He even changed the doctrine to be equal in regards to men and women being unfaithful (Mark 10:11)
Ephesians 5:25 says
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her
If anything Jesus very much cherished females. He loved them and new how precious they were and He had great concern for widows. And since Jesus WAS God, i would say He certainly wasn't showing the characteristics of a male-chauvinism God. IMO
1 Cor 11: 11 - 12 says
Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord. For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God
To me that sounds pretty equal.
Wed May 05, 01:33:00 AM 2010 
 MD1985 said...
Oh and you can't tell from my sign on name but I am female also :)
Wed May 05, 01:37:00 AM 2010 
 Nick said...
@MD1985
So what is your stance on gay marriage? I ask because you say the old covenant was replaced by the new covenant and the new covenant doesn't condemn homosexuality, only homosexual prostitutes.
Wed May 05, 04:40:00 PM 2010 
 Srinivasan said...
To Liz and MD1985,
No religion which claims its supreme deity is a LORD can be said to exercise equality of the sexes. Why is your lord God? Why can't your lord/lady be Goddess?
Wed May 05, 08:27:00 PM 2010 
 MD1985 said...
Nick - i wish i could answer you on what my beliefs were on this subject. But right now i am in the process of seeking about this subject - trying to find an answer myself.
Right now i believe that the bible speaks of people acting out of delibrate perversion - just like it speaks of the same thing for "straight" people who also act out of delibrate perversion.
I don't know that there was the awareness of homosexual people then, that there is today - as in people who are genetically same sex orientated.
But like i said - i am still seeking when it comes to this subject and haven't formed a final view.
Sorry if that sounds like a cop out, but i wouldn't like to comment with a half heart or a lack of conviction.
Wed May 05, 09:00:00 PM 2010 
 MD1985 said...
Srinivasan:
God is God - He is above gender. We may have titles like "Father" and "Lord" and refer to Him as "He" or "Him". But being God means He is God - therefore gender nuetral - above gender - superior to gender.
I hope that makes sense.
Wed May 05, 09:08:00 PM 2010 
 Srinivasan said...
MD1985,
Thanks for attempting an explanation. It still doesn't make sense to me, especially when you repeatedly use gender-specific words to address your God.
Maybe the problem is the inadequacy of language. We have not invented a God-friendly language yet, one which has a whole separate set of nouns, pronouns, etc to use in reference to God. I guess that's what you are trying to tell me.
In any case, if I had a God, I would refrain from calling him Father: that would make me a bastard.
Thu May 06, 12:51:00 AM 2010 
 skanksta said...
@ MD1985 & Liz,
"Don't you think that you, the author of this site and anyone who comments in favour of what the author writes may also "read the verses and twist them into your own justifiable version" as much as what you think Liz does (and therefore what I must do also?)"
Do you even BELIEVE that ?!
That would (sort of) wash, but if you read Steve's blog....
There are HUNDREDS and HUNDREDS of passages showing,
- god to be cruel
- god to be unjust
- women to be inferior
- justifications of S-L-A-V-E-R-Y
- gays to be hated
- genocide to be condoned
- genocide to be rewarded
- god killing babies
- god punishing people for things they didn't do
- god to want sacrifice of animals and
- people burnt alive
- people tortured for not believing in god
- people with other gods to be killed
etc. etc. etc.
We are NOT talking about a few 'odd' passages, we're talking about sentence after sentence, verse after verse, page after page and book after book of horrid stuff like this.
Have you even seen the post on 'context' ?!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfrO6LJyhII
Thu May 06, 05:35:00 AM 2010 
 Sabriell111 said...
MD let me just first say that the religious also twist verses into their own versions as well. The bible doesn't specifically say anything about abortion, but the religious right still find verses they can twist into their own liking to justify their hatred towards abortion. Southerners in America used verses in the bible to justify the act of slavery, though any normal person knows that slavery, especially the practices here in the states, is ethically wrong. If I'm doing any twisting, it is nothing more than an unbiased, logical, rational interpretation of what was written. Maybe the author should have worded this stuff a little better so it doesn't need to be left to the reader to interpret what's actually being said. I don't have to make this stuff up, it's all right there.
Jesus never rejected the teachings in the Old Testament.
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)

"Whoever goes against the smallest of the laws of Moses, teaching men to do the same, will be named least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who keeps the Law of Moses, teaching others to keep them, will be named great in the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:19)
I'll agree that Jesus was more tolerant of women, but if he were so accepting why out of all 12 disciples was not one of them a woman?

When I was younger and went to church, I remember my grandmother teaching me that woman served man and man served god. And I saw that behavior all over the church. I came across this verse: 1Cor. 14:34: Let your women be silent in the churches; for it is not permitted to them to speak, but to be in subjection, as the Law also says.
1Cor. 14:35: And if they desire to learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home; for it is a shame for a woman to speak in a church.
I'm sorry, but I feel that you are indoctrinated to believe those things and if you looked at this from a different angle and actually started asking the right questions, you may get the right answers. And not from your pastor or your sunday school teacher, or your congregation. Start asking the right questions and you'll get your answers. You may not like them, but please don't revert to cherry picking bible verses to justify your needs.
I would love to believe that we had a creator and that when I died I could go to a magical place for eternity with my friends and family and be happy. But that's all wishful thinking and fairy tales, an adult Santa Claus story. I'm sorry, but that's just not reality.
Thu May 06, 08:35:00 AM 2010 
 Catherine said...
MD1985: "He is above gender"
Then why are you calling God "him"?
Thu May 06, 11:02:00 AM 2010 
 MD1985 said...
@ Skanksta:
Do you actually read THE BIBLE or do you base your opinion and views of it on what you read on this site? Do YOU really believe that if God was the God that you just quoted him to be that there would be so SO many faithful and devoted Disciples of Christ? Do you think if we didn't know a loving, caring, providing, protecting, AWESOME, healing, loyal, faithful, wonderful, amazing God that there would be so much Joy in what we believe?
THAT is what i really believe He is. And THAT is why i am who i am. Not because I am broken, not because i am lost, not because i am weak, not because i need something to believe in. Because of who HE is!
Try reading the bible.
@ Srinivasan - re your last line: It's funny cause I do consider Him a Father and that makes me a most loved, blessed and highly favoured Daughter of the King... not a bastard.
@Sabrielle:
I am very aware of when Christians have used the bible to justify acts of cruelty and hatred (just look at Fred Phelps and his disgusting use of God’s word to condemn homosexuals and pretty much anyone else that isn’t him) – I guess that’s the difference between “being religious” and “being in relationship with God”.
Love by God’s standards are very clearly stated in 1 Corinthians 13, I believe anyone or anything that does not adhere to this standard is not showing, acting in or could even understand God’s Love as it was intended.
Re: Jesus coming to fulfil the law – I actually already posted about MY understanding of this scripture in another post, so I am going to copy it to save from typing it again…
I believe Jesus DID fulfil the law – Once a year under the old law the High priest would enter the Holy of Holies and the sins of all people would be put on to the head of a lamb or goat etc and that animal would be sacrificed. But if you read Heb 9:11 - 14 you will see He fulfilled the old law (blood sacrifice) once and for all when He offered Himself unblemished (without sin) to redeem mankind.
God's law still stands; it's just that when we don't meet it, Jesus is our advocate. The Substitutionary Atonement for our sins.
Re: Women in the church: I am still studying this subject. But in my seeking so far these are things I have learnt:
1)Paul was talking to a small Corinthian church in a large city of Pagans.
2)Since the church’s roots were pagan, and there was a lot of impurity, sexual immorality and disputing going on in the city, Paul was giving them GUIDELINES to bring this early church to a place of uniformed beliefs as there had been much division in the church about such subjects.
3)He was trying it minimise the division and arguing amongst the believers by giving them GUIDELINES (that word again) not laws. You have to put those verses into context of who Paul was talking to and what was going on at the time in that place.
Also – I HAVEN’T always been a Christian. I DID see things from the other side. I DID start seeking. And I DID get the right answers. The TRUE answers - they are just not the answers you think are true. And I can tell you that having experienced both sides – its not even a matter of choice for me – where I am now is where I am meant to be – I feel home here.
Your description of Heaven is nothing like my understanding of it (from the scriptures - read Revelation). I expect that whichever of my loved ones are there, i will not have any particular relationship with them at all - they will be fellow servers of God, even my own husband will just be another believer there (Matt 22:30).
Yes, it will be perfect, and painless and beautiful, but you make it sound like we all just believe so we can go to this magical land - Heaven is FAR FAR beyond anything we can comprehend and we will alone serve God for all of eternity.
Fri May 07, 01:46:00 AM 2010 
 beautifulblack said...
Xtianity is nothing more than a goulash mix of pagan beliefs with xtian added flavorings to make the shit palpable.
Xtians follow 2 main topics in OT: homosexuality & tithing (which applied to FOOD NOT money)
They conveniently overlook not eating of certain animals, menstrual women r unclean for period of time-anything she touches is unclean, semen emission renders men unclean til evening-even intercourse the couple's unclean til evening, killing disrespectful kids, after childbirth mom must wait 33 days b4 touchin anything 'holy', its a never ending list...shudnt practice witchcraft-but these 'prophets/profits' are nothing more than 'witches' wearing tailor made couture-and xtians RUN to those fortune tellers! A rose by any other name is still a rose!
But we-the Atheists-are lost??
Xtians r quick 2 say homo is an abomination-well that's not the only thing their holy book says is an abomination-prov 6:16-19 says these are ABOMINATIONS also: haughty eye, lying tongue, killing the innocent, plotting evil, quick 2 do wrong, shit starter etc ...these actions are never addressed as abominations-ONLY homosexuality...wonder why??
Fri May 07, 09:50:00 AM 2010 
 beautifulblack said...
@md1985 no offense sweety, but the thought of telling a narcisstic puppetmaster, he's holy holy holy holy holy holy holy holy holy forever and ever makes me wish I was chum 4 sharks-now. R streets of gold some sort of bribe that'll make u WANT to 'holyize' him for an eternity??
Fri May 07, 09:57:00 AM 2010 
 Nick said...
@MD1985
"Also – I HAVEN’T always been a Christian. I DID see things from the other side. I DID start seeking. And I DID get the right answers. The TRUE answers - they are just not the answers you think are true. And I can tell you that having experienced both sides – its not even a matter of choice for me – where I am now is where I am meant to be – I feel home here."
I can do that too and the stories match up perfectly.
I HAVEN'T always been an unbeliever. I did see things on the other side. I did start seeking. And I did get the right answers. The TRUE answers - they are just not the answers YOU think are true. And I can tell you that having experienced both sides – its not even a matter of choice for me – where I am now is where I am meant to be – I feel home here. I stopped living according to the whims of a book written by men and started living by what feels right, by what fits the natural moral code of humans.
And since you're a women here's a verse for you.
"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." (I Corinthians 11:3)
And since you believe in the bible, read this next verse and we'll expect no arguments from you, remain silent like you were commanded.
"Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." (I Timothy 2:11-14)
And that was in the new testament.
Fri May 07, 02:37:00 PM 2010 
 Darren Delgado said...
MD1985 wrote...
I think the thing you need to remember about more recent translations are
1) they are translated from the Greek and Hebrew texts and manuscripts not from other translations (apart from maybe the Message Bible)
2) I would think that being a more recent translation would be in their favour as there have been recent discoveries that would help translation and understanding of the original manuscripts and
3) more time has passed since early translations, therefore translators would have had better resources and one would think a better understanding of the Greek/Hebrew/Aramaic language and manuscripts.
Don't you think that an all-knowing God would have provided a much clearer version of his word, and update it occasionally with revisions instead of letting it be misinterpreted over and over, and used to justify things like slavery and other horrific crimes?
I mean, yeah, you can take Bible verses to justify anything, but that just shows that it's a jumbled worthless self-contradictory mess. So much so, in fact, that even different sects within Christianity disagree over what it says so vehemently that they are willing to kill each other over it.
If it's so valuable, why wouldn't God step in and tell people what he really meant?
I think we need to remember that when Jesus came to establish a new covenant, it meant that the old one was redefined or replaced by the new. Jesus didn't follow the old covenant laws in regards to women. He treated them equally.
So were the Old Laws that God made wrong? Were they lousy laws, or did he just change his mind?
Fri May 07, 06:47:00 PM 2010 
 MD1985 said...
@ Nick,
Wow, i don't understand what i am saying that is making you respond and react so cruelly.
All i have done is spoken about what i believe, not once have i made a judgement on you, made personal attacks on you, or said anything mean and degrading.
That is ALL i have received since commenting on this blog.
If my love for the Almighty God rubs you the wrong way I will not apologise for that but how dare you speak to me that way behind a silver screen - how gutless.
I will stop commenting here, and you can all go back to feeling good about the fact that you all agree with each other.
I will pray God softens your heart to Him and reveals His love to you all.
Sat May 08, 04:13:00 AM 2010 
 AlteredStates said...
It doesn't really matter which Book you use. If a person is dishonest they won't stop at adultery, their "sins" will follow them everywhere they go. More correctly; they will continue to break God's law no matter what anyone says or does.
There is more to adultery than the act itself. James 2:10-11 "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.
11 For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker".
Along with the act of adultery, there is lying to your spouse and probably to other family members and friends, and breaking of a vow with God. That, in turn, may cause other believers to stumble because of how this type of betrayal affects other believers.
In addition, when these Books were written, they were written to very primitive, uneducated people who lived by "an eye for an eye" rule. Forgiveness was not their forte. This attitude has carried over to recent history, i.e. "Salem Witch Trials" and even to today's news stories. How many of today's ministers of all faiths have been found out to be phonies; committing every sin in the Book, even after preaching against the exact same thing that they get caught doing? I mean, these people give Christianity a bad name (pun intended).
Indecently, these preachers who don't "practice what they preach" will be judged more strictly, James 3:1 "Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly". See ya. :)
Sat May 08, 03:44:00 PM 2010 
 Nick said...
@MD1985
If quoting verses from the bible is cruel to you then you are in the wrong religion.
And how do you expect us to answer when you say that you have the right answers, the true answers. and you tell us we should read the bible. I told you the truth, I have read the bible, and I didn't find the right answers, the true answers.
Sat May 08, 06:41:00 PM 2010 
 srizals said...
You didn't finish up the story, what happened to the wife and husband after they have taken the oath that they are both on the right side?
Finish your story.
If not, those who are not that dwindling in whatever you are in, won't be that convinced that you know what you need to know to talk about it in the first place.
Ps.
1. The four witnesses requirement showed just how hard it is to apply the punishment in the first place. It can only be applied when the requirements are fulfilled, for no one in the right mind would do it openly in front of strangers like a chicken.
2. A husband that can't bring four witnesses have to swear the oath, and no earthly rules and regulations nor punishments fall upon the accused wife nor the accuser husband. (The curse of Allah will fall upon the liar, remember?)
3. What's your solution in dealing with this matter?
4. Be a kind moderator and publish me, if you are truly dwindling in ubelief.
5. A copy of this is going to be out in my blog.
6. Good luck!
Mon May 10, 11:10:00 PM 2010 
 Nick said...
@Srizals
I won't answer for Steve, I'll merely point out what he has already written in this post, if you read it all you will see it there at the end.
Here it is
"I don't know what happens then. What do you do when you have two people that cross their hearts and hope to die on opposite sides of the same case? The Quran doesn't say and I don't think the Supreme Court has ever had a case like that."

I don't think anyone here expects Steve to know everything, if you know what happens next in the Quaran then post it and I'm sure he will add it in, if what you say is true to the Quran.
Tue May 11, 08:04:00 AM 2010 
 Steve Wells said...
I give up, srizals.
The Quran is mostly just gibberish to me. What does it say to do if both husband and wife cross their hearts and hope to die? One of them must be lying, right? How do you know who is lying and who is telling the truth?
Tue May 11, 08:45:00 AM 2010 
 RonBurgundy said...
If you read any comments, please be sure to read this one!
I'm 16, I know nothing about life... But i know 1 thing, God is bigger than all of us... And he knows a lot more than us... How do you all expect to understand God when God knows a billion times more than you... We can't comprehend God and can will never understand why he commands us to do things, and yes the Bible gets weird (read revelations or song of songs), but why try understand what we cant.
I guarentee 1 thing, if the Bilble was followed thotoughly, reletnlessly and LITERALLY we would have an ideal society... But no, instead we choose to question, to try understand...
Please, I beg of you God is great and all-knowing... we are little and pretty dumb, don't argue something that you know nothing about.
Tue May 11, 03:41:00 PM 2010 
 Nick said...
@RonBurgandy
You are the poster child in obedience for every dictator and tyrant that ever existed. It is sad that people see themselves as so small and insignificant that they are unable to function without the control of someone stronger and bigger than them.
And maybe you should completely read the bible before you say we should literally follow everything it says.
Tue May 11, 05:21:00 PM 2010 
 srizals said...
Then, he shouldn't have meddle with things larger than him now, won't it Nick?
Isn't it obvious Nick? You can't prosecute nor inflict on others with punishment without proper evidence.
It also shows that Islam is not obsessed in punishments. Rather than making an error in punishing, it is better to make an error in releasing. So they prefer to let go and let God.
You can't just interpret the verses of the Koran without proper understanding and most of all knowledge. Since you're not a scholar of the Koran, it is unwise to act like one.
The wife and husband have to be divorced, since there is no longer any trust between them. By the way Nick, what is the atheist's solution if the matter arises? Or Steve would care to explain his ways in dealing of a matter he had made such a fun of.
If not, what's the point of arguing? Just for the sake of making fun of things? Where's the reason in that for an atheist?
Tue May 11, 10:41:00 PM 2010 
 Nick said...
@srizals
First, I am not an atheist, I will forgive this since you couldn't have possibly known. I merely am not a follower of any branch of christianity or islam.
Unless the Quran lists what to do it is very open to interpretation. Why should you have to be a scholar to know what a religious book wants you to do? This leaves numerous situations open for abuse.
How would I handle this situation? Well first of all I would look at the unhappy couple and say "That is private business, why are you comming to me with this? You two need to decide on working it out or getting a divorce" There problem solved.
And if religion stopped trying to interfere with my life by trying to control the laws and government and telling me how to live then my, as you put it, "making fun of things" would disappear and I wouldn't care what others religious beliefs are. Sound fair?
Wed May 12, 10:10:00 AM 2010 
 WayPastDueToo said...
Great article! My earliest experiences with the Bible were jarring because of the undeniable injustices against women. And as if that weren't enough, God was either the one calling the shots or condoning them. I just didn't get it. How could a JUST, LOVING and FAIR God treat women with such disdain and injustice?
Reading the Bible was a HUGE reason I ditched my faith after 28 years!
Wed May 12, 02:36:00 PM 2010 
 srizals said...
Tell me Nick, when and where did any Muslims try to control you and Steve? Is there any specific web pages or blogs that dedicate themselves to attack your belief, as this blog have?
Are they a mere reaction to a deliberate action of arrogance? If you don't believe it, why bother? Isn't this just an act of trying to prove that some unbelievers are smarter than others?
The Koran is simple. But there are certain verses that can be corrupted in terms of interpretation, some are open for interpretation, since sometimes not all things are applicable exactly the same. Haven't you heard of autonomy before?
But you can always refer to the original text and compare interpretations by authorised and well-recognised organisations.
Where have you been studying lately? Would you go to anyone that claimed he is a supreme master of knowledge or compare and check your understandings to a legitimate and legalised institutions and sources with calibre?
If any mad men or not that intellect decide to say something about anything, would you be a believer Nick?
If anyone can be an interpreter of anything, what kind of discipline of knowledge is that? There must be a set of rules governing things now, don't you think so? Without it, we would only be following hunches, and blind assumptions, despite being so intellect.
What makes Steve's interpretations and understandings of a book completely out of his league, as a valid and genuine source beyond any reasonable doubts? Is he a god? I mean an alternative god to the lawless and the free? I think after ridiculing everyone else, he should offer alternatives. And not just present a half cook information that has no value to influence anyone but himself.
Sorry for judging you as an atheist, are you an agnostic then?
Wed May 12, 09:41:00 PM 2010 
 skanksta said...
Szrizalls,

Don't suppose I'll get an answer on this old thread, but...
1)Why shouldn't people (politely) ridicule beliefs? It happens all the time in politics, science and sports.
2) The "alternative that Steve needs to offer" is obvious - stop taking ancient religious books seriously.
Thu May 13, 04:54:00 PM 2010 
 srizals said...
Skanksta,
1. A belief is higher than all of them. Steve is trying to degrade it lower than them. Discussions with respect is not a problem. Degrading is.
2. No, that is not what he is doing, he's just trying to undermine a superior way of life that would safe guard mankind. He's offering anarchy.
Fri May 14, 01:22:00 PM 2010 
 skanksta said...
1) Why is "belief higher than any of them ?" AND how is quoting the text of books degrading ?!
2) What is offering "a superior way of life" - I'm not clear...
The Eastern Orthodox church ?
Thor Worship ?
Mormonism ?
Sunni Islam ?
Hinduism ?
Methodism ?
Buddhism ?
Shiia Islam ?
Fri May 14, 01:37:00 PM 2010 
 srizals said...
Skansta,
if you have been reading Steve, you can see that he is just making fun of things without proper research, for example comparing with other point of views or sources, except based on his own understanding.
1. Why a belief is higher than a man's creation? Go check the abortion law in the USA. It is based on a lie and murderous in nature and yet it is all legal and accepted by the highly civilised and advanced society.
2. Not a superior way of life that matters, but which it the truest? That is the question. How to know?
a. Check out how the believers of the belief had behaved in the past and in the present. Are they destructive in nature? Check the percentages too.
b. How do its rules and regulations adhere to the rules of nature of goodness and compassion, for example, regarding marriage and holiness.
c. Check out the belief system they are offering. Is there any contradictions, awkwardness and tyranny?
d. Check out their behaviours in celebrating ceremonies and religious conducts.
e. Check out how they have been treating others that have different belief than them? Are they showing any tolerance or oppressive in nature.
f. Steve has purposely forgotten the gospel of Barnabas. Why?
Fri May 14, 06:10:00 PM 2010 
 srizals said...
Brilliant! Show it to the world. Show us just how low can you go.
Wed May 19, 10:14:00 PM 2010 
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Dwindling In Unbelief



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 01 May 2010Thus did David unto all the children of Ammon
I’m not sure what “thus” was, but it whatever it was, it wasn’t very nice.
First David sent Joab “and all Israel,” and “they destroyed the children of Ammon” and besieged the city of Rabbah.
And it came to pass, after the year was expired, at the time when kings go forth to battle, that David sent Joab, and his servants with him, and all Israel; and they destroyed the children of Ammon, and besieged Rabbah. 2 Samuel 11.1
Joab led forth the power of the army, and wasted the country of the children of Ammon, and came and besieged Rabbah. But David tarried at Jerusalem. And Joab smote Rabbah, and destroyed it. 1 Chronicles 20.1
Then he went to Rabbah and put a gold crown on his head that weighted 1 talent (about 30 kilograms).
David …went to Rabbah and … took their king's crown from off his head, the weight whereof was a talent of gold with the precious stones: and it was set on David's head. And he brought forth the spoil of the city in great abundance. 2 Samuel 12.30
And finally he did this to “all the cities of the children of Ammon”:
He brought forth the people that were therein, and put them under saws, and under harrows of iron, and under axes of iron, and made them pass through the brick-kiln: and thus did he unto all the cities of the children of Ammon. 2 Samuel 12.31
David’s treatment of the Ammonites is stated a bit more clearly in the 1 Chronicles version of this story.
He brought out the people that were in it, and cut them with saws, and with harrows of iron, and with axes. Even so dealt David with all the cities of the children of Ammon. 1 Chronicles 20.3
Neither story says how many Ammonites were killed. I’ll guess 1000.
(We know that God approved of this killing because God approved of all of David’s killings, with the single exception of the matter of Uriah. See 1 Kings 15.5.)

God's next killing: God slowly kills a baby
Posted by Steve Wells at 5/01/2010 09:38:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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2 comments:
 Matthew Blanchette said...
Ugh, that's nasty; that sounds worse than what's going on in Darfur! :-(
Sun May 02, 11:44:00 AM 2010 
 TaoCat said...
Where's all the christians with their cries of "context" and "god was just going with the times?"
Wed May 12, 12:46:00 PM 2010 
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 29 June 2010Surah 2: 35-74 -- Allah turns Jews into apes and solves a murder mystery with a dead yellow cow
Last time we learned that Iblis (pbuh) became the first disbeliever by refusing to worship Adam.
We said unto the angels: Prostrate yourselves before Adam, they fell prostrate, all save Iblis. 2:34
From that quote, I got the impression that Iblis was an angel, but I was told in the comments that that is incorrect. Iblis is not an angel; he's a jinn. Which is a different thing entirely. (A jinn is a creature made from fire that has free will. Angels are messengers of Allah that have no free will. Elves are small semi-divine beings with pointy ears.)
Still, I'm not convinced. Sometimes Iblis is called an angel in the Quran, and sometimes a jinn. And sometimes he seems to be both angel and jinn. (Is Iblis an angel or a jinn?)
But on with our story, such as it is.
Verses 35-38 repeat the Bible's story about Adam and the Garden of Eden (though the Quran doesn't call it that), with the talking serpent replaced by Satan.
Then Allah throws out his favorite line, where he tells us what he has planned for disbelievers. It's almost as common in the Quran as "And it came to pass" is in the Book of Mormon.
But they who disbelieve, and deny Our revelations, such are rightful Peoples of the Fire. They will abide therein. 2:39
A few verses later Allah says something good (the first good thing in the Quran). Don't hide the truth with falsehood.
Confound not truth with falsehood, nor knowingly conceal the truth.2:42
Then Allah gets back to hiding truth with falsehood.
But first he warns you about a time when he will refuse all prayers and help no one.
Guard yourselves against a day when no soul will in aught avail another, nor will intercession be accepted from it, nor will compensation be received from it, nor will they be helped. 2:48
Then, in verses 59-63, Allah repeats more nonsense from the Bible. Remember how he drowned the Egyptians, gave Moses the Law, and whatnot? How you worshiped the calf?
And how Allah told you to kill yourself?
And when Moses said unto his people: O my people! Ye have wronged yourselves by your choosing of the calf (for worship) so turn in penitence to your Creator, and kill (the guilty) yourselves. 2:54a
(See Who is on the Lord's side? for the Bible story that this is based upon.)
Yeah well, Allah did that because killing yourself would be "best for you." Allah is Relenting, Merciful, Retarded.
That will be best for you with your Creator and He will relent toward you. Lo! He is the Relenting, the Merciful. 2:54b
As you read the Quran you'll notice that many of the Bible's stupidest stories are made even stupider in the Quran. Take Exodus 17:1-6 for example. In the Bible, Moses strikes a rock and water comes out for the Israelites to drink. In the Quran, the same thing happens but there are twelve springs that come out of the rock, one for each tribe of Israel.
When Moses asked for water for his people, We said: Smite with thy staff the rock. And there gushed out therefrom twelve springs (so that) each tribe knew their drinking-place. 2:60
2:62 is often quoted to show that the Quran is tolerant of other religions.
Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve. 2:62
But this verse is far from clear (Must you believe in Allah, whatever was revealed to Muhammad, and the Last Day to avoid hell?) and it contradicts other verses.
And now we finally get to the fun stuff.
First Allah brags about turning Jewish Sabbath-breakers into "despised and hated" apes.
Ye know of those of you who broke the Sabbath, how We said unto them: Be ye apes, despised and hated! 2:65
Then he tells the Jews to sacrifice a bright yellow cow.
Allah commandeth you that ye sacrifice a cow, they said: Dost thou make game of us? He answered: Allah forbid that I should be among the foolish! ... They said: Pray for us unto thy Lord that He make clear to us what (cow) she is. ... Pray for us unto thy Lord that He make clear to us of what colour she is. (Moses) answered: Lo! He saith: Verily she is a yellow cow. Bright is her colour, gladdening beholders. 2:67-69
But they weren't sure what cow to kill. All cows pretty much look alike to Jews.
They said: Pray for us unto thy Lord that He make clear to us what (cow) she is. Lo! cows are much alike to us; and Lo! if Allah wills, we may be led aright. 2:70
Somehow they worked it all out, though, and killed a yellow cow.
And now you've got to help me understand the rest of the story, which happens in just two verses.
When ye slew a man and disagreed concerning it and Allah brought forth that which ye were hiding. And We said: Smite him with some of it. Thus Allah bringeth the dead to life. 2:72-73
OK, I don't get much out of that. But this is what supposedly happened:
(Maybe a Muslim can explain it better for us in the comments.)
A man was murdered about the same time that the yellow cow was killed. Nobody knew who the murderer was. So Allah told the people to smite the dead man with a piece of the dead cow. When they did that, the dead man came to life and told everyone who had murdered him. (I hope I got that right.)
You can read all about it here.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bogging the Quran
Surah 2:75-105 -- Little is that which they believe
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Posted by Steve Wells at 6/29/2010 09:08:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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13 comments:
 busterggi said...
I've never seen a bright yellow cow so I guess the Hebrews sacrificed them into extinction.
Bet that some believers will claim the contradictions & misquotes of the bible in the koran prove it was written by an illiterate Muhammed.
Wed Jun 30, 05:40:00 AM 2010 
 uzza said...
Is that a Yusuf Ali translation you're using? Ahmed Ali says his interpretation is "too far-fetched" and changed it.
It's only far-fetched though if you reject all the hadith that describe Mo as holding on to most of his old pagan rituals and beliefs, like this one.
Wed Jun 30, 01:23:00 PM 2010 
 Matthew Blanchette said...
The yellow cow story sounds almost like a garbled combination of the Golden Calf and the serpent in the desert (that would cure all those who looked upon it?), but I'm confused; where the hell did Muhammad get these garbled stories from?
The Talmud, and other rabbinical scriptures, perhaps? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legends_and_the_Qur%27an ;-)
Wed Jun 30, 01:36:00 PM 2010 
 Steve Wells said...
No, uzza, I'm using Pickthall's translation.
Wed Jun 30, 03:26:00 PM 2010 
 Nathan said...
All I can figure is that Iblis was sort of an honorary angel, so he served Allah with the rest of the angelic crew, but retained his free will. I don't know how well that would go over with the Islamic community, though. {g}
Wed Jun 30, 04:47:00 PM 2010 
 kat said...
Didn't expect people to find Iblis so fascinating....am I missing something?...why is it important for Iblis to be an angel?
Anyway---the Quran will clear up this mystery(there is more to the story)---so have patience....
Iblis---When the Quran refers to Iblis, it should be understood as Iblis and his group.---though at this point in the story this detail is not very important.---Also, take note that Iblis is not a "satan" (rebellious one) at verse 34----he is referred to as "Satan" only after his rebellion/disobedience.(So, Satan would be more a reference to the attitude/state rather than name)
37-38 Islam does not have original sin because Prophet Adam(pbuh) was forgiven--and he was also given Guidance---which is why he is referred to as a Prophet. (Quran says there have been many Prophets/wisdom teachers sent all over the world to all mankind over time who have taught the "right way")
verse 44 (Yusuf Ali) "Do you enjoin right conduct on the people, and forget (to practice)yourselves? And yet you study scripture? will you not understand?
----The reason for belief/religion is not so we can judge others---but so that we can judge ourselves, and use its Guidance to become better human beings. ---otherwise belief/religion is useless.
excessive Pride is theme in the Quran and it is always calling people to be humble, compassionate and merciful.
note--verse 48---refers to the soul (Nafs=Islam, Nefesh=Judaism). (IMO)the soul(self/consciousness) does not have a gender, though grammatically it uses feminine gender---God also does not have a gender though gramatically the male gender is used.
Wed Jun 30, 08:51:00 PM 2010 
 kat said...
The Quran says that the pursuit of knowledge is important to understanding(obviously) ....with regards to the People of the Book--Jews and Christians---today's readers may feel confused---however, keep in mind that 1) The Jews addressed here are mainly the Arab Jews of Yathrib, though all Jews everywhere are included. 2) The Christians addressed here include the various Non-Western/Roman Christian churches and groups at the time of the Prophet(pbuh). Christianity and its doctrines evolved over time and in early Christianity, there were many doctrines and dogma that were different from that of the Western/Roman Church. (I suppose not much has changed?...there are said to be a 30,000 Christian denominations today...?!...)
(The Christians will be addressed in Surah 3)
Wed Jun 30, 09:13:00 PM 2010 
 kat said...
@Matthew
The stories in the Quran have some similarities to those of the Torah, Talmud (Mishneh, Midrash, Gemarrah and Rabbinical works) as well as apocrypha----however, as everyone has already noticed, there are also significant differences. Non-Muslim scholars are trying to trace the origins of the differences.
Some stories also come from the "folk" tradition of the Arab Jews.---the story of apes and pigs and the twelve springs...
(will write more later.....)
from a Muslim perpective---if God is Compassionate, Merciful and Just, then verse 47--idea of chosen people, verse 54---slaying of self, verse 65 apes, pigs...etc
are disturbing, puzzling.......
Wed Jun 30, 09:51:00 PM 2010 
 kat said...
The Quran says some parts clear (and can betaken literally) and other parts are similitude and we should use our intelligence to understand...
verse 47--A theme of the Quran is that all human beings are equal--Yet, we can see for ex, some have more wealth (blessings)than others---In the Quran, our blessings are balanced by our responsibilities, so someone who has more wealth---has more responsibility to make the choice to use that wealth for the benefit of the less fortunate than someone who is less wealthy.(and we will be held accountable for our choices)--the Jewish people have recieved much Guidance (blessing)and therefore are also responsible for following that Guidance.
verse 48 talks about the self/soul and that it is individually responsible for choices. (Judgement is not about belonging to a particular group)
verse 54 "slay yourselves" can be taken literally (Yusuf Ali) in whih case it will match up with Exodus 32:27-28 or it can be taken as a metaphor(M. Asad)---that those who are egoic (prideful, arrogant) should slay their ego and be humble so as to repent--because God is Merciful and forgiving. (the rest of the stories also elaborate on this theme of being prideful, ungrateful...)
verse 65---is also about the same theme---Guidance is given but rejected and people become "apes" a metaphor for impulsive nature or animal nature---the story comes from a folk tradition about a fishing village---the story is further elaborated on in Surah 7.
verse 67 the story about the heifer(calf) is also about stubborness, pride--people do not want to follow Guidance so they make all kinds of excuses/arguments not to...
Thu Jul 01, 07:31:00 PM 2010 
 kat said...
I think I forgot to mention this one------
verse 60---12 springs---the Jewish people were divided into 12 tribes (with the exception of the tribe of Levi) and since humans are territorial by nature---I suppose 12 springs makes sense...anyway, there was a folk tradition about 12springs comming from a red granite mass....the point of the story is that we all have a place on this earth and we should try to get along and not "create mischief".
Thu Jul 01, 07:44:00 PM 2010 
 Nathan said...
"Satan" is the Hebrew for "adversary," and seems to have been used in a general way in the Bible before coming to refer to a specific character. Christian tradition says his name was Lucifer before he rebelled, but this is actually based on a passage in Isaiah (I think) comparing Nebuchadnezzar to the morning star.
Fri Jul 02, 10:45:00 AM 2010 
 kat said...
@Nathan
Thanks for the info....
Satan=adversary (or adversarial one)---would also work fine as long as it is understood it means adversary of humans---not God.
I think that for Muslims, the specific status of Iblis/Satan (angel or not) is not very important---is it (doctrinally)important for Christians/others?---does anyone know?
Fri Jul 02, 08:10:00 PM 2010 
 Uss said...
Just for Everyone's Information, IBLEES IS A JINN (18:49). He was a righteous Jinn who was overly devout and worshipped Allah like the Angels who have no free will. So, he was elevated in Status to be among the Angels Until... His Pride caused him to disobey.
Mon May 23, 09:51:00 AM 2011 
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 28 June 2010Mr. Deity's Back
(And I'll be back soon with another Quran post. Until then, here's something fun to watch: The Prequel for the new season.)


Posted by Steve Wells at 6/28/2010 08:38:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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 5cent said...
I believe he's said the entire season is a prequel, making this the first episode of the new season.
Tue Jun 29, 08:43:00 PM 2010 
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 24 June 20101 Nephi 5: After this manner of language did they speak
In this chapter, Nephi and his brothers, along with Laban's servant Zoram, return to the wilderness from Jerusalem.
And it came to pass that after we had come down into the wilderness unto our father. 1 Nephi 5:1a
I guess the 400+ kilometer trip was getting routine by now, because Nephi says nothing at all about it. His parents, though, were filled with joy, exceedingly glad even, to see them.
Behold, he was filled with joy, and also my mother, Sariah, was exceedingly glad, for she truly had mourned because of us. 1 Nephi 5:1b
In fact, after the boys got back, the parents just couldn't stop talking about it. After this manner of language did they speak:
And after this manner of language had my mother complained against my father. 1 Nephi 5:3
And after this manner of language did my father, Lehi, comfort my mother. 1 Nephi 5:6
And after this manner of language did she speak. 1 Nephi 5:8
After they were done speaking in that manner of language, Lehi took a look at the brass plates. They had all kinds of cool stuff written on them: the five books of Moses, the history of the Jews, and the prophecies of Jeremiah.
Lehi ... beheld that they did contain the five books of Moses ... And also a record of the Jews from the beginning, even down to the commencement of the reign of Zedekiah ... And also the prophecies which have been spoken by the mouth of Jeremiah. 1 Nephi 5:10-13
And, most important of all, the plates had Lehi's genealogy, which showed that Lehi was a descendant of Joseph. (Joseph is a really important name in the Book of Mormon. I'm not sure why.)
And it came to pass that my father, Lehi, also found upon the plates of brass a genealogy of his fathers. wherefore he knew that he was a descendant of Joseph; yea, even that Joseph who was the son of Jacob. 1 Nephi 5:14
When Lehi found out that he was a descendant of Joseph, he was filled up with the Spirit and started to prophesy about his seed, saying the plates would never perish or dim with time. (No one has seen them since.)
When my father saw all these things, he was filled with the Spirit, and began to prophesy concerning his seed -- That these plates of brass should go forth unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people who were of his seed. Wherefore, he said that these plates of brass should never perish; neither should they be dimmed any more by time. 1 Nephi 5:17-19a
And then he prophesied some more stuff about his seed.
And he prophesied many things concerning his seed. 1 Nephi 5:19b
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blogging the Book of Mormon
Next episode -- 1 Nephi 6: It mattereth not to me that I am particular
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by Steve Wells at 6/24/2010 12:40:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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12 comments:
 twillight said...
I checked twice, but this BoM is the most ridiculous scripture I've ever saw (although not the most ridiculous story, but that's another story).
"And then he prophesied some more stuff about his seed." - I thought you just skipped something to look funny. Turned out you didn't. This is absolut crap.
Tell me one thing: later this Joseph Smith gained some writing-skills, or gave up even that smallest amount he had as his followers' number incrised (as obviously if they bought crap, they'll buy maybe even crappier things)?
Thu Jun 24, 12:59:00 PM 2010 
 Steve Wells said...
Joseph Smith must have been a very charismatic and perceptive guy. He knew what people wanted and he gave it to them. They wanted their scripture to sound like scripture (like the KJV); they wanted to know where the American Indians came from (one of the lost tribes of Israel would be nice); and wanted to believe there was something special about America (God really did bless America). They were poorly educated, ignorant, superstitious bigots. He gave them something they could believe in.
Thu Jun 24, 01:23:00 PM 2010 
 Matthew Blanchette said...
Great reaming of it, Steve... except the bit about the plates is 1 Nephi 5:17, not 1 Nephi 5:1. :-P
Thu Jun 24, 01:26:00 PM 2010 
 Steve Wells said...
Crap! You caught me again, Matthew.
Thu Jun 24, 01:45:00 PM 2010 
 Matthew Blanchette said...
Not to worry, Steve; your points still stand strong, but you just need a proofreader for any typos before posting. ;-)
Thu Jun 24, 02:24:00 PM 2010 
 Steve Wells said...
Yeah, lucky I've got you guys to proofread for me or all my mistakes would still be out there. (Joseph Smith could have used guys like you.)
Thu Jun 24, 02:45:00 PM 2010 
 Matthew Blanchette said...
Indeed, he could have; fortunately for you, though, he didn't. :-D
Thu Jun 24, 02:59:00 PM 2010 
 Luftritter said...
"Lehi was a descendant of Joseph. (Joseph is a really important name in the Book of Mormon. I'm not sure why.)"
Maybe because the prophet was JOSEPH Smith? (^_^)
Thu Jun 24, 03:20:00 PM 2010 
 Steve Wells said...
Yeah, Luftritter, I think you might be on to something there!
Thu Jun 24, 03:44:00 PM 2010 
 Srinivasan said...
This Joseph Smith has a lot in common with Muhammed. Both were perceptive and knew their people, both were good storytellers, and both were a little (no, make that a lot) unhinged.
I feel Smith (and his crazy-ass religion) would have gotten a lot more popular if he had a more prophet-like name, like Nehemiah Alphonso or something, rather than the garden variety "Joe Smith".
Thu Jun 24, 09:02:00 PM 2010 
 Matthew Blanchette said...
Hey, Steve, you ought to mark this occasion; today's the anniversary of the death of Joseph Smith.
Apparently, he was thrown out the window of a jail by an angry mob while trying to appeal to the possibility of Masons in the crowd, shouting, "Oh, Lord, my God--"; he died before he could get to "is there no help for the widow's son?", the completion of the traditional Masonic cry for help.
Even to the end, Smith was trying to get people on his side in the sneakiest ways possible... :-P
Sat Jun 26, 07:02:00 PM 2010 
 Daniel said...
Lehi, a devout Jew, didn't know what tribe he was from? This seems surpassingly unlikely.
But then, they also didn't waste much time writing about all those Mosaic ordinances they were supposed to be performing -- sacrifices, offerings, and so forth. Hmm.
Sun Jun 27, 06:52:00 PM 2010 
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 A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
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50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
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David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
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Dwindling In Unbelief



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 23 June 2010Surah 2: 25-34 -- Believers get pure companions in heaven, Adam learns the animals' names, and Iblis becomes a disbeliever
Yep, all that in just ten verses.
Here's a summary.
If you believe and do good works, you will have pure companions in heaven.
And give glad tidings (O Muhammad) unto those who believe and do good works ... for them are pure companions. 2:25
Allah created seven heavens. (I think there was a TV show about that.)
He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth. Then turned He to the heaven, and fashioned it as seven heavens. And He is knower of all things. 2:29
Allah will shed human blood while angels praise him in heaven. (The angels question why Allah has to kill people; Allah says they'd understand if they knew everything like he does.)
And when thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am about to place a viceroy in the earth, they said: Wilt thou place therein one who will do harm therein and will shed blood, while we, we hymn Thy praise and sanctify Thee ? He said: Surely I know that which ye know not. 2:30
Allah taught Adam all the names (of the animals, I guess).
And He taught Adam all the names. 2:31a
Then Allah showed all the animals to the angels, challenging them to guess their names (if they are truthful).
Then [he] showed them to the angels, saying: Inform Me of the names of these, if ye are truthful. 2:31b
But the angels weren't truthful enough to guess correctly.
They said: Be glorified! We have no knowledge saving that which Thou hast taught us. Lo! 2:32
Then Allah tells Adam to tell the angels the animals' names. So Adam tells them and says, "I know something you guys don't! Neener-Neener-Neener!"
He said: O Adam! Inform them of their names, and when he had informed them of their names, He said: Did I not tell you that I know the secret of the heavens and the earth? And I know that which ye disclose and which ye hide. 2:33
Finally, just to rub it in, Allah tells the angels to worship Adam. And they all did except for Iblis, who became the first disbeliever.
And when We said unto the angels: Prostrate yourselves before Adam, they fell prostrate, all save Iblis. He demurred through pride, and so became a disbeliever. 2:34
And the only reasonable person (so far, anyway) in the Quran.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bogging the Quran
Surah 2: 35-74 -- Allah turns Jews into apes and solves a murder mystery with a dead yellow cow
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by Steve Wells at 6/23/2010 01:31:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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19 comments:
 Gordon Napier said...
The story of Lucifer refusing to worship Adam was found in the apocryphal Life of Adam and Eve. It seems Muhammad had access to non-canonical Jewish and Christian traditions. Allah does seem to delight in winding up the angels. It's a wonder more of them didn't get sick of it!
Wed Jun 23, 03:51:00 PM 2010 
 kat said...
In Christianity Lucifer is an Angel---I think?
Iblis is not.
Note---sometimes one can miss the nuance in translations---the word that equals the Christian concept of heaven is Paradise in the Quran,and heaven=outer space. The word "seven" in Arabic also has the conotation of many/several.
Wed Jun 23, 05:32:00 PM 2010 
 Steve Wells said...
Kat,
So Pickthall mistranslated/misinterpreted 2:34 then?
Wed Jun 23, 05:35:00 PM 2010 
 kat said...
Verse 30 (question from the angels) refers to man's nature, Not God
Wed Jun 23, 05:39:00 PM 2010 
 kat said...
No he did not---sometimes the nuance of the arabic is difficult to express in translation
Wed Jun 23, 05:40:00 PM 2010 
 Steve Wells said...
Well then I don't get it, Kat. Here's how Pickthall translated 2:34: "And when We said unto the angels: Prostrate yourselves before Adam, they fell prostrate, all save Iblis."
Doesn't "all save Iblis" mean that Iblis was an angel, since Allah was talking to angels here?
Wed Jun 23, 06:21:00 PM 2010 
 kat said...
I thought I already posted the reply---But I may have missed---so reposting----Steve, Pls delete if its a double.
"all save Iblis"---the arabic word translated as "all save"(Pickthall) can have the connotation of "exception"/not belonging to group (from comentary (tafsir) of Yusuf Ali---who translates it as "not so Iblis")
In Islamic thought---Angels do not have free-will, but obviously Iblis has free-will because he is able to refuse God's request.
The story of the fall of Iblis will unfold in stages----and by the way, Neither Islam nor Judaism has the concept of original sin---so keep this in mind when we encounter these stories again.
Wed Jun 23, 06:46:00 PM 2010 
 twillight said...
I find it AMUZING, that it ALWAYS "turns out", a common believer is always a "better" TRANSLATOR of dead languages than ANY professional translator. :roll eyes:
Thu Jun 24, 02:24:00 AM 2010 
 Matthew Blanchette said...
This actually comes from the early Christian belief that there were seven heavens; at one point, Paul stated that he was caught up as far as "the third heaven". This heavenly sphere of existence is where he believed Christ had offered himself up to "the rulers of the age", and not on the lowly plains of the Earth, as is so frequently taught in this day and age.
Funny, how nobody mentions this anymore, isn't it? ;-)
Thu Jun 24, 10:58:00 AM 2010 
 Luftritter said...
I have always found amusing when believers start whining about context and translations when confronted with nonbelievers.
They simply do not see the elephant in the room: why a god ("The God") would even bother to reveal his history, purposes, commandments and plans for the salvation of mankind through something as unreliable as writing?
He could have done something better, stuff that do not require the ability to read ancient dead languages or knowledge of textual criticism or for that matter the ability to read which was (and in some places still is) the privilege of a tiny minority.
I would be more impressed if the Almighty had chosen for example imprinting the memories of whatever he thought important in the minds of every human being regardless of race. If everyone had a memory of Jebus with his cross or Muhammed chatting with Gabriel, that would be difficult to explain. Otherwise I'm completely unimpressed.
Thu Jun 24, 11:40:00 AM 2010 
 kat said...
luftritter---an interesting point.
So why did God not make us all the same? 2 reasons according to Quran---1)We can understand compassion and tolerance by encountering the "different", the "other" and making the effort to transend the difference/strangeness.
2)Free-will means that we must make our own decisions...and be responsible for our choices. We have been given the intelligence to figure things out for ourselves
By the way---In both Judaism and Islam, Human beings have been created with an inherent goodness....that means we have within all of us, the ability to recognize goodness...it is only a matter of us choosing to or not.
Thu Jun 24, 06:38:00 PM 2010 
 Srinivasan said...
Kat,
You've raised an important point about free will, as stated in your point 2. But unfortunately, Allah has sealed the hearts of some unbelievers, blinded their sights and deafened their hearing, effectively removing free will from them.
So if I were one of those, I have to ignore the wonderful revelations in the Qur'an, not by choice but by design. But Allah will still punish me for having the temerity to be created that way. And Allah knows best.
Thu Jun 24, 08:41:00 PM 2010 
 Luftritter said...
Thank you---kat.
Well no, I think I was misunderstood. I did not said why did God not make us all the same, what I meant is why he choose such a poor method for comunication as writing. For example we don't even have the originals of all those scriptures, they did not survive the passing of time and the vicissitudes of history. Writing is that unreliable.
What I think is that given the fact that God is presumably omnipotent he could have used more effective techniques.
For example we puny human beings with our current technology can send sounds directly to the brain (http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/295/5557/1025) and in the future we will send pictures (http://www.springerlink.com/content/7564702l5qq23863/).
He (God)could have done the same to all human beings since birth or send messages to each of us like on the phone or TV. I can think in that and I'm not near omnisapience.
Instead God choose to reveal his eternal laws by means of doing a lot of party tricks in front of several gullible uneducated peasants in the middle east. Besides that the tales of those encounters in all cases were written years after the events by third parties with their own conflicting political and religious bias. You see, all this are things that confuse me...
Regarding this "We can understand compassion and tolerance by encountering the "different", the "other" and making the effort to transend the difference/strangeness" It's very nice, I agree and that's all I'll say.
In this point: "Free-will means that we must make our own decisions...and be responsible for our choices. We have been given the intelligence to figure things out for ourselves", what I need to ask you is: do you really want to use free will arguments?
Because free will makes no sense.
For example according to christian and muslim escathology in the future the purpose of God is create an state for humanity different than our current situation. You can call that heaven or paradise. That's the bliss for the believer: they do the always the right thing for their own volition without being forced. If free will is very important for God, all humans in heaven must have free will. Then the question is why this situation happens just at the end of history and not in any other point?
If God is omnipotent he could have created heaven at any point in time and for all human beings. There is no need for the current state of affairs, God do not need to punish anyone in order to enforce free will. That's what being all powerfull means. Believers always underestimate omnipotence. By the way, I must add that a non omnipotent being is not God: is just a very powerful being, more strong than humans but not God. A sufficiently advanced alien would be very powerful, more than we, but I don't see humanity falling on their faces in front of him.
Free will is not a very respectable idea, has lots of contradictions and is no very moral, another case in point is the relation between free will and the problem of evil. The existance of dead and diseases unrelated with human choice, the fact that the free will of one human being limits the free will of others (murderers for example destroy the posibility of free will in their victims). Some human beings do not have free will at all (mentally handicaped people since birth or by wounds in accidents or diseases, babies spontaneusly aborted live and die without the chance of free will, etc). The idea of God allowing suffering in this world just for free will's sake, doesn't makes him look very good.
The free will argument is not very compelling indeed...
Thu Jun 24, 09:31:00 PM 2010 
 kat said...
@Srinivasan
As both you and luftritter have pointed out--there are many problems with the conventional understanding of free-will vs predeterminiation. This means, we might have to have to think "out of the box" on this one.
As verse 6 pointed out---the initial choice was ours to make---after which the consequences of our choice was that God closes our hearts...etc. However, (as the Quran will explain) we are free to change our minds-and we have the intelligence to do so. God is Compassionate and Merciful---and if we realize error, God is forgiving and will give us opportunities to understand Guidance. Islam may not be the right fit for you....we all travel on our spiritual journeys in our own ways....
God is not only Compassionate and Merciful, but also Just. God will hold us accountable for those choices that we have decided of our own free-will. Not everyone has equal free-will---for example if someone lives under oppression or threat, they have less free-will than someone living in a free society. Justice requires degree of responsibility for our choices be equal to the degree of our free-will.....
These are challenging questions....I hope we can discuss these issues further as we continue reading the Quran.
Fri Jun 25, 08:14:00 AM 2010 
 kat said...
@luftritter
"poor method for comunication as writing." (I agree)---there is a question in the Quran that goes something like---why didn't God send an angel to everyone (instead of just to Prophet Muhammed(pbuh)) that way, everyone would be sure....I think this may be something similar to what you may be asking?
1)In Islam, everyone is born a Muslim (one who submits--to God)---what this means is that as babies, we are born in unity with our inherent goodness. As we grow, we develop "ego"/identity/self. Along with our identity(me/mine)---The development of ego/self is somewhat necessary for our survival---desires such as hunger,shelter,companionship ...etchelp us live on this earth. But ego also leads us to temptations such as greed, pride, hate...etc and this creates divisions.....
That is why the Quran refers to itself as a "reminder"---goodness is something we already know.
2)free-will gives us a choice between our inherent goodness and the temptations of our ego. Therefore, if God chose to send you a revelation/guidance into your brain for example...if you chose to ignore it, you could claim it was from the "devil"--the result would be the same in that with free-will ---no matter how a message is sent, it can still be ignored. The other scenario is that we (human beings) have no free-will---in which case, will we be human beings?
3)The word Quran means recitation/reading and it is a text that is meant to be memorized.(I am referring to the arabic Quran)
Free-will and escatology---In the Quran, this is a complicated subject---I hope that we can explore it together...I appreciate your questions as they bring out many aspects that I havn't thought about before.---for example, do we have free-will in heaven?--I haven't thought of this one before and we may have to explore the answer together---as I do not know....As to why "Judgement" is at the end of an appointed time (not after death----but at some predetermined time in the future)----We are here on this earth for a purpose---we have free-will, and the intelligence to use this free-will rightly or wrongly. Our stay on earth is the opportunity to do this. We will be held accountable for our intentions and actions on earth. That is why Judgement has to come at the end---because it (Judgement) depends on what we do on earth.---Justice means that those who cause sufferring to others must be held accountable for their actions, just as those who use good for the benefit of all of God's creations must also be held accountable.
my apologies if I have misunderstood anything again...Your questions are very interesting....there is the problem of evil that you also mentioned----I would like to think on this....it will be an interesting subject to explore.
Thankyou for an intelligent, thought-provoking post.
Fri Jun 25, 09:13:00 AM 2010 
 Luftritter said...
kat:
My pleasure, I wish all believers were so nice.
Personally I agree in that all debate must bring at least a bit of Enlightenment at the end, more so if we disagree. At the end we are nothing but human beings looking for our own path through light and darkness.
Fri Jun 25, 10:51:00 AM 2010 
 Srinivasan said...
Kat,
Thanks for the response. It kind of makes sense.
A Muslim friend of mine once told me Allah imparts Qur'anic knowledge to the developing foetus in the womb, but after we are born, we forget this, or rather, we relegate it to the recesses of our memories.
Your comment makes sense in this context. Some of us choose to ignore this ante-natal knowledge and thus our hearts are sealed?
The only problem I see with this is that Allah already knows since the beginning of time, which of his children will submit to him and which will not, the same way that he knew Iblis will rebel and fall out of favour. So I could argue that the fall of Syaitan was Allah's intention all along, to create evil in order that his goodness will be valued.
Sun Jun 27, 08:07:00 PM 2010 
 kat said...
Just wanted to clarify---"Muslim" (in Quranic terms) is one who submits (to God)---it is used to refer to a state of being--not the label of a religious movement. The concept that all babies are born in "Tawheed" (Unity) with God is called "Fitra" in Islam.
"So I could argue that the fall of Shaitan was Allah's intention all along, to create evil in order that his goodness will be valued."
It is an interesting point---and one that Muslim scholars have also debated over.....
take another look at verses 30 to 39.
In v 30---the angels ask God why he is creating a reperesentative who will "make mischief and shed blood", when he already has them (angels) who worship him.....the reference to Iblis does not come until verse 34. Therefore---though I agree with you that God would have known all along about Iblis and that he became a useful tool, (IMO)it was not essential to the overall plan to have Iblis.---let me explain---"We"/self inhabit the body and for it to survive on earth---we need to have desires---for example, without the desire for hunger or thirst, our body would starve and die. But, these desires can become excessive (toxic) and can lead to harm....I hope this is something we can explore further.....I would like to know your thoughts on this issue as we come across this theme again.....
In both Judaism and Islam---Satan is not a very powerful figure---it only has as much power as we (humans) give it of our own free-choice. (all these themes will unfold as the story of the fall of Iblis continues)
A Jewish person gave me this definition of Satan that I like---"it is a force of fragmentation/division." this seems juxtaposed with the idea of Tawheed(Islam), (Shema=Judaism) which is about "Unity"/Oneness (of God) It might be interesting to understand the Quranic concept of Satan with this in mind?
Tue Jun 29, 08:52:00 PM 2010 
 Uss said...
Ummm.... The Angels aren't wondering why Allah would shed blood on earth; they are asking why he would put someone on earth (Humans) that would shed blood (among one another, Humans Killing Humans)
Mon May 23, 09:34:00 AM 2011 
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Dwindling In Unbelief



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 22 June 2010Bible ignored, grandfather mauled
That's not the title of a parody article from the Onion; it's Bryan Fischer's post at the American Family Association.
You remember Bryan, don't you? He's the guy who said, after the tragic incident in Orlando, that we should have followed Exodus 21:28 and stoned Tilikum to death.
Now Bryan says that God is sending out the beasts to kill us all for disobeying his statutes.
...one of the consequences for a nation which walks in his statues is that it will have nothing to fear from wild animals. “If you walk in my statutes...I will remove harmful beasts from the land” (Lev. 26:3,6).
On the other hand, “[I]f you will not listen to me and will not do all these commandments...I will let loose the wild beasts against you” (Lev. 26:14,22).
God has "set loose the wild beasts against" us, just like he said he'd do in Leviticus 26.
Pretty soon God is going to force us to eat our own children (also in Leviticus 26).
And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat. Leviticus 26:29"
Bryan can hardly wait.
Posted by Steve Wells at 6/22/2010 08:27:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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6 comments:
 Matthew Blanchette said...
Wow... where the hell do you get these nuts, Steve? :-O
Tue Jun 22, 09:37:00 AM 2010 
 Steve Wells said...
Right here in Idaho. We've got lots of them around here. (Here's a bio on Bryan Fischer.)
Tue Jun 22, 12:35:00 PM 2010 
 Maureen said...
eek. How can anyone who has read the Bible actually think that it is worth listening to?!!!
Tue Jun 22, 10:19:00 PM 2010 
 Robert Rand said...
"Because these researchers were intent on studying the grizzly rather than killing him to protect innocent human life, a husband, father and grandfather is dead today."
I get it...instead of studying nature, we should kill every living thing we see that might possibly be harmful in order to protect the humans who might possibly be harmed by those animals one day...
Wed Jun 23, 12:07:00 AM 2010 
 The Biblical Christian said...
Well, God has to do what He has to do. Sending beasts to us to punish us is what He shall do then.
Wed Jun 23, 11:56:00 AM 2010 
 agema-makedonin said...
When Christians say things like:
"Well, God has to do what He has to do. Sending beasts to us to punish us is what He shall do then. "
they say it out their false sense of security they persuade them self they are to be.
The truth is that Matthew 7:21-23 tells that not even those who are convince that they were saved can be sure that they really are saved till the very end.
Out of the same false sense of security, those Christians rejoice when God is shown having anger or killing people to punish etc.
In this thought they have the sadistic pleasure for punishing those who obviously enjoy life which they could not enjoy, cause their submission to some rules that they accepted out of fear being punished by some superior force. This fear is most likely instilled in early years by parental influence.
Actually the whole Idea of God being the father and the one who gives or punishes is from the early years of human life, where the parents are those who determine the babies and young child destiny and life.
This is easy to observe at any baby or young child.
Mon Sep 06, 12:11:00 PM 2010 
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Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
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 22 June 20101 Neph 4: Better for one man to die than a whole nation dwindle in unbelief
Chapter 3 ended with an angel telling Nephi's brothers to stop beating Nephi and Sam with a rod.
And it came to pass as they smote us with a rod, behold, an angel of the Lord came and stood before them, and he spake unto them, saying: Why do ye smite your younger brother with a rod? 1 Nephi 3:29
The angel didn't impress Laman and Lemeul much though, so Nephi had to make another long, boring, BoM-type speech.
And it came to pass that I spake unto my brethren, saying: Let us go up again unto Jerusalem, and let us be faithful in keeping the commandments of the Lord; for behold he is mightier than all the earth, then why not mightier than Laban and his fifty, yea, or even than his tens of thousands? Therefore let us go up; let us be strong like unto Moses; for he truly spake unto the waters of the Red Sea and they divided hither and thither, and our fathers came through, out of captivity, on dry ground, and the armies of Pharaoh did follow and were drowned in the waters of the Red Sea. Now behold ye know that this is true; and ye also know that an angel hath spoken unto you; wherefore can ye doubt? Let us go up; the Lord is able to deliver us, even as our fathers, and to destroy Laban, even as the Egyptians. 1 Nephi 4:1-3
After the speech, Laman and Lemuel decided to follow Nephi back to Jerusalem, though they "did still continue to murmur."
Now when I had spoken these words, they were yet wroth, and did still continue to murmur; nevertheless they did follow me up until we came without the walls of Jerusalem. 1 Nephi 4:4
When they got to Jerusalem, Nephi's brothers waited outside the gates while Nephi was led by the Lord to Laban's house.
And it was by night; and I caused that they should hide themselves without the walls. And after they had hid themselves, I, Nephi, crept into the city and went forth towards the house of Laban. And I was led by the Spirit, not knowing beforehand the things which I should do. 1 Nephi 4:5-6
The Lord lead Nephi to a drunk guy passed out on the ground -- who turns out to be Laban!
Nevertheless I went forth, and as I came near unto the house of Laban I beheld a man, and he had fallen to the earth before me, for he was drunken with wine. And when I came to him I found that it was Laban. 1 Nephi 4:7-8
Laban had a sword made out of "the finest steel" (more than two thousand years before steel was available) with a handle of pure gold.
And I beheld his sword, and I drew it forth from the sheath thereof; and the hilt thereof was of pure gold, and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine, and I saw that the blade thereof was of the most precious steel. 1 Nephi 4:9
Then the Spirit constrained Nephi to kill Laman, who was passed out on the ground in front of him.
And it came to pass that I was constrained by the Spirit that I should kill Laban. 1 Nephi 4:10
But the Spirit had to tell Nephi again.
And the Spirit said unto me again: Behold the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands. 1 Nephi 4:11
And a third time, reminding Nephi that God kills people too (so it must be OK) and besides, it's better that one person die than a whole nation dwindle in unbelief.
And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me again: Slay him, for the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands ... It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief. 1 Nephi 4:12-13
So Nephi (finally) obeys the Spirit by grabbing Laban by the hair and chopping off his head with his own sword.
Therefore I did obey the voice of the Spirit, and took Laban by the hair of the head, and I smote off his head with his own sword. 1 Nephi 4:18
After Nephi smote off his head, he put on Laban's clothes (while the blood gushed from the carotid artery) and "gird on his armor about [his] loins." (Laban always wore armor on his loins when he went out partying.)
And after I had smitten off his head with his own sword, I took the garments of Laban and put them upon mine own body; yea, even every whit; and I did gird on his armor about my loins. 1 Nephi 4:19
Dressed in Laban's blood-drenched clothes and loin armor, he went to the treasury of Laban and commanded (with the voice of Laban) Laban's servant to follow him.
And after I had done this, I went forth unto the treasury of Laban. And as I went forth towards the treasury of Laban, behold, I saw the servant of Laban who had the keys of the treasury. And I commanded him in the voice of Laban, that he should go with me into the treasury. 1 Nephi 4:20
And it worked perfectly. Nephi looked and sounded just like Laban, so it completely fooled Laban's servant.
And he supposed me to be his master, Laban, for he beheld the garments and also the sword girded about my loins. 1 Nephi 4:21
Nephi chatted with Laban's servant for a while about all the usual things -- the wild party last night, gossip about the elders of the "church" (the Jews had churches back then), etc. Then Nephi told him to take the brass plates to his brothers who were waiting outside the city gates.
And he spake unto me concerning the elders of the Jews, he knowing that his master, Laban, had been out by night among them. And I also spake unto him that I should carry the engravings, which were upon the plates of brass, to my elder brethren, who were without the walls. And I spake unto him as if it had been Laban. And I also bade him that he should follow me. And he, supposing that I spake of the brethren of the church, and that I was truly that Laban whom I had slain, wherefore he did follow me. And he spake unto me many times concerning the elders of the Jews, as I went forth unto my brethren, who were without the walls. 1 Nephi 4:22-27
When Nephi's brothers saw Nephi and Laban's servant coming, they were "exceedingly frightened" since they thought Nephi was Laban, too! (It was an exceedingly good disguise.)
And it came to pass that when Laman saw me he was exceedingly frightened, and also Lemuel and Sam. And they fled from before my presence; for they supposed it was Laban, and that he had slain me and had sought to take away their lives also. 1 Nephi 4:28
But then they heard his voice (he wasn't using the voice of Laban this time) and they knew it was Nephi "wherefore they did cease to flee from [his] presence."
And it came to pass that I called after them, and they did hear me; wherefore they did cease to flee from my presence. 1 Nephi 4:29
After brothers settled down, Nephi talked Laban's servant (Zoram) into joining up with them, and they packed up the brass plates and returned (400+ kilometers) to Lephi's tent.
And it came to pass that we took the plates of brass and the servant of Laban, and departed into the wilderness, and journeyed unto the tent of our father. 1 Nephi 4:38
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blogging the Book of Mormon
Next episode -- 1 Nephi 5: After this manner of language did they speak
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Posted by Steve Wells at 6/22/2010 06:42:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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10 comments:
 busterggi said...
Laban glasses were the original prototype for Groucho glasses - the perfect disguise.
Tue Jun 22, 07:24:00 AM 2010 
 I am the wise fool. said...
That dress-up deception reminded me a little of the tale of Jacob stealing Esau's blessing in the Bible. The details are different, but they both carry that how-could-you-possible-not-know-that-the-person-was-not-who-they-claimed-to-be essence to them.
The sinful apple doesn't fall far from the clumsy tree.
Tue Jun 22, 07:57:00 AM 2010 
 Matthew Blanchette said...
You mispelled "Laban" as "Labin" a couple of times, Steve; otherwise, great way to tear this shoddy-ass Bible fan-fiction (written at a time when steel was widely available, no less!) apart. ;-)
Tue Jun 22, 09:35:00 AM 2010 
 Steve Wells said...
Thanks again, Matthew, for the corrections. I'm always messing up BoM (and Bible) names!
Tue Jun 22, 09:57:00 AM 2010 
 Matthew Blanchette said...
'Sokay, Steve; I'm sure a lot of us, even without all that time you've spend studying both those texts, would get the names wrong without surfin' the 'net. :-)
Tue Jun 22, 01:17:00 PM 2010 
 Nathan said...
That bit that repeats "strike your brother with a rod" about ten times in a row was what really clued me in as far as how lousy a writer Joseph Smith really was.
Tue Jun 22, 04:19:00 PM 2010 
 dbd said...
"Pure gold" is very malleable and would not be an effective handle for a functional sword.
Tue Jun 22, 06:37:00 PM 2010 
 Beej said...
I saw a funny dialogue on this on youtube
Wed Jun 23, 11:41:00 AM 2010 
 Steve Wells said...
Thanks, Beej. That was great!
I've added a link at the bottom of the post and at the SABoM.
Wed Jun 23, 11:55:00 AM 2010 
 shawn said...
Here is another problem with the whole narrative, in my opinion. Back in chapter 3:11 they cast lots, (I thought Mormons were against gambling and games of chance, but I digress) Laman lost, and had to deal with Laban, with no luck. Blah, blah, blah, Laban passes out in front of Nephi. Nephi wacks Laban's head off. Then impersonates him. Question: How did Nephi know how to mimic Laban If he did not deal with him previously? Is this valid, or am I overthinking this?
Mon Jun 06, 09:41:00 PM 2011 
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Dwindling In Unbelief



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 21 June 2010Hey Sarah, pray louder! Maybe he's daydreaming or relieving himself
Yesterday Sarah Palin said we should give up on the clean-up efforts in the Gulf and ask God for a solution/miracle.
Gulf disaster needs divine intervention as man's efforts have been futile. Gulf lawmakers designate today Day of Prayer for solution/miracle
And I'm sure all of her prayer warriors (along with the Louisiana Legislature) did just that. So what's the problem? Couldn't God hear her and her friends?
It reminds me of the words of Elijah, taunting the 450 prophets of Baal in the prayer contest.
Pray louder! He is a god! Maybe he is day-dreaming or relieving himself, or perhaps he's gone off on a trip! Or maybe he's sleeping, and you've got to wake him up! 1 Kings 18:27
Keep praying, Sarah. Nothing fails like prayer.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A note about the translation of 1 Kings 18:27
The Bible versions that are most popular to believers (KJV, NIV, RSV) translate this verse in a way that sanitizes Elijah's bathroom humor.
The New International Version (NIV) translates "maybe he is relieving himself" as being "busy."
"Shout louder!" he said. "Surely he is a god! Perhaps he is deep in thought, or busy, or traveling. Maybe he is sleeping and must be awakened." NIV
The King James Version (KJV) translates it as "pursuing."
Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked. KJV
And the Revised Standard Version (RSV) as "he has gone aside."
And at noon Eli'jah mocked them, saying, "Cry aloud, for he is a god; either he is musing, or he has gone aside, or he is on a journey, or perhaps he is asleep and must be awakened." RSV
But Elijah wasn't the type to bother with polite euphemisms.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And now for something completely different.


Posted by Steve Wells at 6/21/2010 08:15:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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9 comments:
 Matthew Blanchette said...
Heh; always with God and people relieving themselves, eh? ;-)
Mon Jun 21, 10:53:00 AM 2010 
 Steve Wells said...
Sorry, Matthew. I couldn't resist. (And neither could Elijah, apparently.)
Mon Jun 21, 11:05:00 AM 2010 
 Matthew Blanchette said...
"They that pisseth against the wall", etc., etc... no problem, Steve. :-)
Mon Jun 21, 01:29:00 PM 2010 
 TaoCat said...
Well, if he's relieving himself, it would help make sense of our weather here in the Seattle area lately. I mean, we have a lot of rain, but this is ridiculous. Cold and rainy all the time.
It must be that god hates my tomato and pepper plants, what without me praising his name and all. Although my religious neighbor doesn't seem to be doing any better.
Mon Jun 21, 01:58:00 PM 2010 
 Baconsbud said...
I figure once the Gulf gets cleaned up she will say how great a job her god did cleaning it.
Mon Jun 21, 04:11:00 PM 2010 
 Drew said...
"Nothing fails like prayer."
Probably the best quote I've heard in a long time.
Mon Jun 21, 10:10:00 PM 2010 
 Matthew Blanchette said...
You ever read Douglas Adams, Steve? I have a feeling that his humour would be right up your alley... ;-)
Tue Jun 22, 09:29:00 AM 2010 
 Steve Wells said...
No, Matthew, I haven't read Douglas Adams, but I know I should and hope to someday. (If I can ever get free from the Bible, Quran, and BoM.)
Tue Jun 22, 10:20:00 AM 2010 
 Matthew Blanchette said...
Here's a nice bit by him on YouTube that you can listen to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kK1YgR7J0g&fmt=18
Tue Jun 22, 01:20:00 PM 2010 
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Dwindling In Unbelief



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 21 June 2010Surah 2: 14- 24 -- Produce a surah the like thereof
OK, where were we?
When you're reading the Quran, it's hard to remember where you are because it says the same damned thing over and over again. So if you're reading along with me, you're going to need a bookmark.
If you remember last time, Allah was busy telling disbelievers how foolish and blind they were (because he made them that way) and then dooming them for their disbelief.
Now he tells us that he especially dislikes people who pretend to believe when they're around Muslims, and then disbelieve when they hang out with devils.
And when they fall in with those who believe, they say: We believe; but when they go apart to their devils they declare: Lo! we are with you; verily we did but mock. 2:14
Allah will mock and blind them.
Allah (Himself) doth mock them, leaving them to wander blindly on in their contumacy ... Allah taketh away their light and leaveth them in darkness, where they cannot see ... Deaf, dumb and blind. 2:15-18
And do you know what? If Allah really wanted to, he could destroy their sight and hearing. Allah can do anything.
If Allah willed, He could destroy their hearing and their sight. Lo! Allah is able to do all things. 2:20
And if you doubt that any of this stuff I've been quoting really comes from Allah, then just try to write something like it.
And if ye are in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto Our slave (Muhammad), then produce a surah of the like thereof. 2:23
That's right you disbelievers! Just try to write a Surah that's as meaningful and cool-sounding as this one:
The power of Abu Lahab will perish, and he will perish.
His wealth and gains will not exempt him.
He will be plunged in flaming Fire,
And his wife, the wood-carrier,
Will have upon her neck a halter of palm-fibre.
That is Surah 111 and there's nothing you can write that would be nearly as good.
Not that people haven't tried. Here's one that someone wrote, for example, trying match the beauty of Surah 111.
In the name of Marvin, most-merciful, all-compassionate:
Damn both hands of my neighbor Sam; damn him!
His money and children will not save him!
He will be burnt in a blazing flame --
Sam and his dame, who is also to blame.
As she was carrying wood to her home,
She put some thorns in the path where I roam.
So she shall suffer a torment most dire,
Dangling in hell from a noose of palm-fibre.
But that is obviously inferior.
Go ahead and try, though, if you want to. You will fail and Allah will burn you forever if you in the fire that he has prepared for disbelievers, whose fuel is men and stones.
And if ye do it not - and ye can never do it - then guard yourselves against the Fire prepared for disbelievers, whose fuel is of men and stones. 2:24
So there!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bogging the Quran
Surah 2: 25-34 -- Believers get pure companions in heaven, Adam learns the animals' names, and Iblis becomes a disbeliever
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by Steve Wells at 6/21/2010 06:17:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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19 comments:
 dr-rieux said...
In verses like that one, I've always wondered if the original Arabic version rhymes or has some kind of tricky symmetry or something. Because, as you point out, there's really nothing difficult or impressive about composing line after line of "Allah's gonna roast yuh," especially to the point where one can brag about how superior those lines are.
Can someone really taunt the world with "Just try to write something as fabulous as this" when there's nothing particularly special about what's being written?
If so, then aside from all the bloody-minded inhumanity of the Qur'an, it's also seriously weird.
Mon Jun 21, 08:30:00 AM 2010 
 Matthew Blanchette said...
If Shakespeare had written the Qu'ran, I think we'd take this warning a lot more seriously, but as is, well... :-P
Mon Jun 21, 10:49:00 AM 2010 
 Srinivasan said...
I guess if you were a native Arabic speaker (I'm not), you may be able to appreciate the "wondrousness" of the Qur'an.
I think it's something to do with the poetic style, which is supposedly unique and different from the prevailing styles of that period. It is claimed that the early converts were seduced by the lyrical quality of the verses, not so much by the meaning.
Mon Jun 21, 08:41:00 PM 2010 
 Steve Wells said...
Yeah, Srinivasan, it probably sounds a lot better in Arabic.
2 Kings 18:27 probably sounds better in Hebrew, too.
Tue Jun 22, 07:18:00 AM 2010 
 busterggi said...
Why the BOM is at least as beautiful as the Koran!
And Dianetics too!
Tue Jun 22, 07:28:00 AM 2010 
 kat said...
dr-rieux
The pre-Islamic Arabs loved poetry and held contests to find the best among them.
(The Quran(Arabic) does not follow the rules of straight poetry and is not considered a poem---but it has rhytm, rhyme, and uses many literary devices (imagery, repetition, juxtaposition....etc) to create emotions in the reader much the same way poetry does. At the same time---the usage of the (Arabic)words (semantics)is unique and precise.
The smallest Surah in length are about 3 lines (excluding "In the name of God the Compassionate and the Merciful"...which is not considered part of the Surah except in surah 1)
This challenge has stood unbroken from the day it was issued to today. There have been many Poets, writers, philosophers in Muslim history---none have been able to rival even 3 verses of the Arabic Quran.
There are 2 reasons for this challenge 1) As I said previously, the Quran does not encourage blind belief. 2) There was skepticism during the time of the Prophet(pbuh) regarding his claim that the Quran was a revelation---therefore the Quran suggests that it be put to the test----if this is indeed a book created from Man----then any Man should be able to recreate a surah of like quality.
(The Quran has been subjected to literary scrutiny throughout the ages in order to understand how it has been put together---(literary style,devices....etc)and books have been written about this subject---and continue to be written about it....)
Tue Jun 22, 08:30:00 PM 2010 
 kat said...
There are different grades of "disbelief" in people---those that stem from ignorance to those that seek to actively decieve.
Regardless of degree, 3 general characteristics are pointed out...
a)They decieve themselves and others
b) they cause mischief on earth
c)they disregard guidance for error....
Tue Jun 22, 08:39:00 PM 2010 
 Srinivasan said...
Well, the devil was able to write a surah "the like thereof". Remember the Satanic Verses? Satan managed to convince Muhammed and his audience that those verses actually came from Allah, so it must have sounded authentic.
Doesn't that mean Iblis is as good at conjuring poetry as Allah? Which leads one to wonder: what else in the Qur'an was crafted by that mischief maker but could not be discovered to be so? I wish Kat would answer this.
Wed Jun 23, 02:17:00 AM 2010 
 Andrew said...
"Lo! Allah is able to do all things."
Signs that you spend too much time online: I read that "Lo!" as "Lol". LOL
Wed Jun 23, 06:18:00 AM 2010 
 kat said...
Satanic Verses---as far as I know---there are no "Satanic verses" and never were.
Although the early life of the Prophet(pbuh) is not well documented, there has been much written and researched about him since the revelations began. From early on in Muslim history, this documentation has been graded according to authenticity.
However, human "mischeif makers" often use less authentic or false traditions for various reasons (---mostly to make mischief)
Wed Jun 23, 05:26:00 PM 2010 
 Srinivasan said...
What a convenient reply Kat. Whatever you believe in, is authentic; that which you find unpalatable, is the result of mischief. Selective hearing (or reading) eh? Oh the delusions of Muhammedans!
Wed Jun 23, 09:43:00 PM 2010 
 skanksta said...
FWIW The Satanic Verses was one of the most captivating books I've ever read.
Once got stoppped on the tube by an Islamist, telling me I was disrespecting his people by reading it openly. He was polite and respectful, but I obv. told him where to go.
He hadn't read it of course and if he had, he'd notice that every page dripped with the sort of double-meaning, imagery and word-play that great literature should.
Put the crappy Koran to shame.
Thu Jun 24, 05:10:00 AM 2010 
 Homayoon said...
Muslims are always ready to say that many have tried to produce something like the Quran without success. What they fail to tell you is that there have been people (presumably many people) who have taken the challenge and then executed for disrespecting the word of Allah.
Besides, every writer and poet (and that includes Mohammad) has his/her own literary style and it is possibly impossible to write exactly with the same style as someone else, and who is to judge anyway? They can just say it's not as good.
There have been many good writers whose style has been imitated by others without any success. In our history in Iran, we have Saadi (among others) as a very good example. Very prominent writers have tried to imitate him; no one succeeded. His style is describes as "easy (to read), but unapproachable." I guess if he had decided to start a religion, he could use the same argument.
Wed Jun 30, 07:13:00 AM 2010 
 Παναγιωτης said...
AFAIK no one has managed to produce a text in ancient Greek as nuanced, spidery and deep as the texts of Sophocles. Henceforth, I shall worship Sophocles (pbuh) as the prophet of God. Or not.
Wed Jun 30, 11:51:00 AM 2010 
 K.M said...
Many artists have tried but they have failed to produce an exact replica of the Monalisa. Does this make Monalisa divine and Leonardo da Vinci the God?
Mon Aug 23, 08:40:00 AM 2010 
 kefaya said...
In Arabic the Quran is very rhythmic with early Surahs rhyming on the sixth syllable, these verses convey a huge sense of hast and urgency with prophet spreading his word so that people hasten to join the congregation of believers...before it was too late! Much like Jesus' continuous drumming that the Kingdom of God is here or soon to come...Later verses of the Quran are much relaxed..rhyming on the 12th syllable these dealt more with day to day matters. Armageddon hadn't come!..Islam had won, in Hejaz at least, A rudimentary form of government had arisen, very embarrassing for a Prophet who didn't subscribe to worldly things but finds himself not only his people's spiritual leader but ruler as well! The prophet is under alot of his tribal supportors to form a hierarchy change the keblla from Jerusalem to Mecca which he originally despised! He visited Mecca only twice after leaving it. The Quran was only gathered, and a final version documented more than 25 years after Mohamed's death. A committee of 5 was entrusted with sifting through many scraps of individual verses and old comrades of the Prophet were called in to recite what they remember of the Quran and when a certain verse came to being. The final product was assembled according to Semitic practices (whether in literature,namely poetry, or holy scriptures)of the time... Long Surah's in front, short ones in the back. No regard was given to chronological order...you may have a late verse followed by a much earlier one and then back to more recent verses. Surat alBaqra (the Cow) is an excellent example being the longest of all Surahs with verses spanning more than 20 years backwards and forwards. Even at the time of Quran the literary eliite several poets they considered more eloquent than the Quran , all great poets of the age, and there were at least several attempts by others to claim prophecies of their own and to spread their own holy texts. They were however suppressed early on and very little is left to analyze by today's scholar.
In the 20th century, the great thinker and literary critic Taha Husein, tried to subject the Quran to literary analysis, just you would any text. His complete life was shattered in just the same way Galileo's life must have when he announced that the earth circled around the sun. His Sin was even greater for he had studied at El-Azhar Theological University before seeking a secular post-graduate education in Egypt and abroad (France).
Mon Sep 27, 05:24:00 AM 2010 
 Raza said...
Well in the case of Abu Lahab and Sam there is a difference. Sam may not necessarily be damned. Abu Lahab, as time proved, was.
Just a difference...
Mon Jan 17, 03:33:00 AM 2011 
 Newton said...
So who exactly wrote Surah 2?
And, with the threat of burning in eternal fire, who wouldn't be scared into such a belief system?
I believe that its poetic felicity is more of a threatening piece of illiteracy that somehow leads everyone to salivate at the incoherency.
* I'm open for discussion. Praise be our nature.
Tue Jan 31, 12:28:00 AM 2012 
 Asab said...
The Quran does sound much better in Arabic. It's extremely beautiful to hear, and recitations of the Quran sound like singing. This is also true of the Torah. As for the Quran repeating itself over and over, yes, it does do that, but that's sort of the point. When God is telling you something that will save your soul from eternal Hellfire, well, that's a message that really ought to be heard. So it's repeated over, and over, and over. IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD, YOU WILL GO TO HELL.
That message is meant to be so clear that anyone, reading just about any page of the Quran, would be able to receive it.
Also, I'm not sure whether or not you were wondering why, exactly, God doesn't just blind all of the disbelievers to prove He exists, but I think you were, so I'll address as best I can.
This life is a test. Every single human being on the planet has obstacles to overcome, and everyone will be judged according to how they dealt with those obstacles. If every disbeliever just went blind, then everybody would know for certain God exists, which would completely defeat the purpose of this life.
I hope I was able to clear at least something up (that is, if anyone ever even looks at this... I think I'm a little late XD).
Wed Mar 06, 05:15:00 AM 2013 
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Dwindling In Unbelief



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 17 June 20101 Nephi 3: Oh my heck! We forgot the brass plates!
When we last left Lehi and his family, they were camping out on the shore of the Red Sea next to the River Laman. The Lord had just visited Nephi and told him about his plan to lead Nephi to a new land that the Lord had prepared just for him, "a land which is choice above all other lands."
And then his dad had another dream.
And it came to pass that I, Nephi, returned from speaking with the Lord, to the tent of my father. And it came to pass that he spake unto me, saying: Behold I have dreamed a dream . . . 1 Nephi 3:1-2a
This wasn't just any old dream, either. It was a Book of Mormon dream.
. . . in the which the Lord hath commanded me that thou and thy brethren shall return to Jerusalem. 1 Nephi 3:2b
So Nephi and his brothers had to go back to Jerusalem. Why? Did they forget to lock the house? Leave the coffee pot on? What?
No, it's much more serious than that. They forgot their danged brass plates!
For behold, Laban hath the record of the Jews and also a genealogy of my forefathers, and they are engraven upon plates of brass. 1 Nephi 3:3
It had Lehi's whole genealogy on it, and Mormons love their genealogies (especially the ancient Jewish Mormons).
But it wasn't just Lehi that insisted on the 800+ kilometer round trip; it was God. (God is a Mormon and he's into genealogy, too.)
Wherefore, the Lord hath commanded me that thou and thy brothers should go unto the house of Laban, and seek the records, and bring them down hither into the wilderness. 1 Nephi 3:4
So God commanded Nephi and his brothers to return to Jerusalem, get the brass plates from a guy named Laban, and return "hither into the wilderness."
And after three more and-it-came-to-passes and one exceedingly, the four brothers were back in Jerusalem.
And it came to pass that when we had gone up to the land of Jerusalem, I and my brethren did consult one with another. 1 Nephi 3:10
Now they just needed to decide how to get the brass plates back from Laban.
Luckily, though, they had all read the Bible so they knew the proper way of deciding such things. They cast lots.
And we cast lots -- who of us should go in unto the house of Laban. 1 Nephi 3:11a
And the lot fell upon Laman, so he went in to talk to Laban about the plates.
And it came to pass that the lot fell upon Laman; and Laman went in unto the house of Laban, and he talked with him as he sat in his house. And he desired of Laban the records which were engraven upon the plates of brass, which contained the genealogy of my father. 1 Nephi 3:11b-12
But Laban refused to give him the plates, accused him of trying to rob him, and threatened to kill him.
And behold, it came to pass that Laban was angry, and thrust him out from his presence; and he would not that he should have the records. Wherefore, he said unto him: Behold thou art a robber, and I will slay thee. 1 Nephi 3:13
After that, Laman, Lemuel, and Sam wanted to give up on the plates and return "to the wilderness."
But Laman fled out of his presence, and told the things which Laban had done, unto us. And we began to be exceedingly sorrowful, and my brethren were about to return unto my father in the wilderness. 1 Nephi 3:14
But Nephi talked them out of it in a long, boring speech.
But behold I said unto them that: As the Lord liveth, and as we live, we will not go down unto our father in the wilderness until we have accomplished the thing which the Lord hath commanded us.
blah, blah, blah
And it came to pass that after this manner of language did I persuade my brethren, that they might be faithful in keeping the commandments of God. 1 Nephi 3:15-21
So Nephi and his brothers go get their father's gold, silver, and precious things (that were left behind on their wilderness trip), brought them to Laban, and offered to trade it all for the plates.
And it came to pass that we went down to the land of our inheritance, and we did gather together our gold, and our silver, and our precious things. And after we had gathered these things together, we went up again unto the house of Laban. And it came to pass that we went in unto Laban, and desired him that he would give unto us the records which were engraven upon the plates of brass, for which we would give unto him our gold, and our silver, and all our precious things. 1 Nephi 3:22-24
Laban wanted their gold and whatnot but he also wanted to keep the plates. (He was into genealogy, too.) So he decided to kill them and take their stuff.
And it came to pass that when Laban saw our property, and that it was exceedingly great, he did lust after it, insomuch that he thrust us out, and sent his servants to slay us, that he might obtain our property. 1 Nephi 3:25
Nephi and his brothers escaped to the wilderness and hid in "the cavity of a rock."
And it came to pass that we did flee before the servants of Laban, and we were obliged to leave behind our property, and it fell into the hands of Laban. And it came to pass that we fled into the wilderness, and the servants of Laban did not overtake us, and we hid ourselves in the cavity of a rock. 1 Nephi 3:26-27
By this time, Laman and Lemuel had had enough. They "did speak many hard words" to Nephi and started beating him with a rod.
And it came to pass that Laman was angry with me, and also with my father; and also was Lemuel, for he hearkened unto the words of Laman. Wherefore Laman and Lemuel did speak many hard words unto us, their younger brothers, and they did smite us even with a rod. 1 Nephi 3:28
Then an angel showed up and told them to stop beating Nephi; that God has chosen Nephi to rule over them; that they should go back to Jerusalem; and that God would deliver Laban into their hands.
And it came to pass as they smote us with a rod, behold, an angel of the Lord came and stood before them, and he spake unto them, saying: Why do ye smite your younger brother with a rod? Know ye not that the Lord hath chosen him to be a ruler over you, and this because of your iniquities? Behold ye shall go up to Jerusalem again, and the Lord will deliver Laban into your hands. 1 Nephi 3:29
But Laman and Lemuel weren't convinced by the angel.
And after the angel had departed, Laman and Lemuel again began to murmur, saying: How is it possible that the Lord will deliver Laban into our hands? Behold, he is a mighty man, and he can command fifty, yea, even he can slay fifty; then why not us?1 Nephi 3:31
Since they were Book of Mormon characters, they were used to angels dropping by to deliver messages from God. I suppose that sort of thing gets old after a while.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blogging the Book of Mormon
Next episode -- 1 Neph 4: Better for one man to die than a whole nation dwindle in unbelief
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by Steve Wells at 6/17/2010 09:43:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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18 comments:
 twillight said...
Now I can't decide: you're more funny, or the REAL ten commandments, what can be found in Exodus chapter 34?
(Man, I haven't written down 10 with letters in ages! It do look strange now.)
Thu Jun 17, 11:49:00 AM 2010 
 Steve Wells said...
Thanks, twillight. But it's not me; it's the Book of Mormon. I think it's even funnier than the Bible.
And you're right about the real big 10. I should do a post on that someday.
Thu Jun 17, 12:51:00 PM 2010 
 Matthew Blanchette said...
I'm confused; are we talking about the Ten Commandments from the Bible, or are there a completely different set of Commandments in the BoM? :-S
Also, I remember reading that Smith wrote in the bit about the brass plates after one of his followers' irate wife stole the first hundred or so pages of the BoM from him and challenged him to reproduce them, if he was so divinely inspired; Smith then announced that, through the esteemed foresight of God, "the angel Moroni" had presented him with an entirely new set of plates to "retranslate" the stolen text from.
It'd be pretty funny to see how close Joseph Smith's two "divinely inspired" writings were, especially at what Smith might've forgotten about in between... ;-)
Thu Jun 17, 01:12:00 PM 2010 
 Luftritter said...
You know, this is really hilarious in its own right (the Book of Mormon I mean) but it also makes me lose a bit of faith in humanity. How can so many people actually believe in this stuff?.
Because even for foreigner with a funny accent like myself, its obvious that this "writings" are nothing but a very bad case of "Ye Olde Butcherede Englishe" trope. Here a link: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YeOldeButcheredeEnglishe
Thu Jun 17, 03:40:00 PM 2010 
 D.O.K said...
Wow i thought you were kidding (or exaggerating) in one of the previous posts with the "exceedingly"s and "it came to pass"s - but you really weren't eh?
I've never read the book of Mormon but Behold! it will come to pass that i will become exceedingly embittered should i attempt such a feat.
Although, i'm sure many people think the Holy bible is hard to understand too. In fact I hear there are ENTIRE blogs dedicated to that exact topic - honestly, who would have the time? :)
Thu Jun 17, 07:13:00 PM 2010 
 barriejohn said...
You're all so right! Verily, it came to pass many years ago now, when Mormons were recruiting youngsters from our church (I was infected with the religious virus in those days), that I decided to look further into their "faith", so purchased a copy of the Book of Morons. What a revelation it was indeed, but not in the way that the writer intended! It is, verily and heretofore, obviously written in "cod" KJV form, by someone who has read the Bible and is trying to produce a similar document. How can any sensible person swallow this tripe as the "Word of God"? Why on earth, verily and indeed as I here do say, would someone living in the 19th Century, when translating ancient texts, be using 17th Century language?
Fri Jun 18, 12:53:00 AM 2010 
 Jon said...
Are you saying Lephi instead of Lehi on purpose?
Fri Jun 18, 02:13:00 AM 2010 
 Steve Wells said...
No, Jon, Lephi is a mistake. I meant Lehi. I'm always messing up BoM (and Bible) names. Thanks for the correction.
Fri Jun 18, 06:00:00 AM 2010 
 busterggi said...
Matthew - even the bible has several sets of 10 commandments that are contradictory - the REAL 10 commandments are whichever are convenient for the situation.
And stop cooking young goats in their mother's milk!
Fri Jun 18, 06:23:00 AM 2010 
 Nathan said...
Why couldn't Joe have just put in the part about retrieving the plates BEFORE the family went into the wilderness? Something tells me he wasn't much for going back over his work to see whether it made any sense. It really makes God look obnoxious, though. "Go hide out in the wilderness. Oh, wait! I forgot to tell you to retrieve your brass plates."
Fri Jun 18, 11:29:00 AM 2010 
 Steve Wells said...
I agree, Nathan, the return trip seems unnecessary. But maybe Joe added it to make the book a little longer. 1600 or so and-it-came-to-passes can only do so much, you know.
Fri Jun 18, 11:42:00 AM 2010 
 Matthew Blanchette said...
Again, have a look at my above post; I have a feeling Smith wrote that in to justify his "small plates of Nephi" bullcrap.
Fri Jun 18, 04:44:00 PM 2010 
 skanksta said...
I was thinking of becoming a MOrmon after the first two installments, but, having seen what has come to pass..this is a REALLY silly religion.
Fri Jun 18, 05:55:00 PM 2010 
 Steve Wells said...
Matthew,
The plates that the Book of Mormon were inscribed on were gold, not brass. So they were different sets of plates.
Here is a fun video about Joseph Smith's golden plates.
Fri Jun 18, 07:30:00 PM 2010 
 Steve Wells said...
Matthew,
twillight's talking about the Bible's Ten Commandments. Here's a great video about the set found in Deuteronomy 34.
Fri Jun 18, 07:58:00 PM 2010 
 twillight said...
You mean Exodus 34 Steve.
My problem with this BoM-story is not just the trip seems unnecessary, or why the whole gang had to go back.
MY question is, how that other guy laid hand on that plate? did he robbed their house? Or did they sell them the plate? Or what?
Sat Jun 19, 12:05:00 PM 2010 
 Steve Wells said...
Right, twillight. I meant Exodus 34.
Sat Jun 19, 12:47:00 PM 2010 
 markdask said...
Hi Steve this is my first time here. Hilarious running commentary but I just can't take the actual bom itself. Shouldn't these fairy stories be banned?
Keep up the excellent work lol
Wed May 23, 03:52:00 PM 2012 
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Dwindling In Unbelief



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 16 June 2010What Obama should have said last night
Visit msnbc.com for breaking news, world news, and news about the economy
Except for the "God bless you and God bless America" bullshit at the end.
Posted by Steve Wells at 6/16/2010 08:20:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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4 comments:
 Robert Rand said...
I cut my grass with an electric lawnmower, why can't I drive to work in an electric car? As much as it sucks what's happening to the environment on the coast, my main selfish interest is that I don't like paying $2.50/gal when, barely ten years ago I was paying $.70. I want an electric car. Almost everyone out there would love a car that you didn't have to pay $30-60 to fill up the tank.
...and from the wikipedia page for the movie "Who Killed the Electric Car", I found this quote...
"We don't deserve the catastrophe in Iraq, and the two madmen arguing over oil supply lines seem intent on martyrdom for Iraq in a widening war. With EV, we need not get involved in seizing and defending the oil supplies of the Mideast; nor need we maintain fleets, bomb and incarcerate people we can't stand, give foreign aid to oily dictators, and so on. It's not anything to laugh about."
Lets not forget about all the problems we're having over in the middle east because of oil.
This may seem like an overly political topic for a blog about religions, but I think it is relative because, with all of America's entangling alliances with Jewish and Muslim countries over land, oil, money, and the rest of the generic political B.S, it shows how much power religious groups have over our country, and the rest of the world.
If these religious countries have us by the testicles politically, then it won't take much squeezing to get us to, say, ban cartoons making fun of Mohamed, or some kind of tax-payer funding for Muslim religious schools, etc.
In other words, if we're addicted to oil, and Islamic countries are where we get out fix, then it won't be long until they become our pimps.
I always found it odd that after a handful of Saudi Arabian and United Arab Emirate men carried out the worst terrorist attack in the history of America...we invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, while continuing to import large quantities of oil from Saudi Arabia and offering to turn over port security to a firm owned by the UAE...
I'm just judging these books by their covers here, so don't take me as some conspiracy nut just yet...but when you smell something fishy, it's OK to assume there's some fish around, somewhere.
Thu Jun 17, 02:07:00 AM 2010 
 Matthew Blanchette said...
I get that you didn't like the "God bless America" bit, Steve, but at least it wasn't as ridiculous as what Obama actually said in invoking God... ;-)
Thu Jun 17, 09:33:00 AM 2010 
 Steve Wells said...
Matthew,
Yeah, at least she didn't suggest that we should all just pray and let God take care of it. (Like Obama did at the end of his speech.) Still, it was disappointing to hear her throw in that "God bless America" crap at the end. Otherwise, though, I thought her speech was great.
Thu Jun 17, 11:29:00 AM 2010 
 Matthew Blanchette said...
Same here, but do you really think she believes in that crap? She is a lesbian, after all... ;-)
Thu Jun 17, 01:14:00 PM 2010 
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 16 June 2010Surah 2: The Cow, Part 1 -- Allah is wise, mysterious, funny
Surah 2 is the longest surah in the Quran, so it's going to take a while to get through it. I can only take so much of this stuff at a time.
It starts, as many surahs do, with three Arabic letters.
Alif. Lam. Mim. 2:1
No one knows what they mean or why they are there. But I have a theory.
The mysterious letters (Alif. Lam. Mim.) are the Quranic equivalent of W.T.F.
Allah is wise, mysterious, funny.
But he has a serious side, too. Take the next verse where he says:
This is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt. 2:2a
The Quran is true because the Quran says it's true, just like the Bible and the Book of Mormon. There is no doubt about it.
It's useful to those that "ward off evil," believe unseen things that Muhammad reveals to them, and are absolutely certain that they will survive their own death.
You know, the successful people. The Muslims.
[The Quran is] a guidance unto those who ward off evil. Who believe in the Unseen .. And who believe in that which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) ... and are certain of the Hereafter. ... These are the successful. 2:2b-4
As for the other people, the disbelievers, Allah has already taken care of them. He has "sealed their hearing and their hearts" and put a covering on their eyes so they won't be able to believe.
As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not. Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. 2:6-7a
So if you don't believe by now, you never will. Allah has hardened your heart and blinded you to the truth. There's nothing you, or anyone else, can or should do about it.
And what happens to the disbelievers?
Theirs will be an awful doom. 2:7
You see, to Allah unbelief is like a disease. And he increases the disease. He's a spiritual anti-doctor.
In their hearts is a disease, and Allah increaseth their disease. 2:10
So if you don't believe in the unseen things that Muhammad revealed, you're pretty much out of luck. Allah has already blinded your eyes (so you won't be able to see unseen things), hardened your heart (so you'll think it's cruel for Allah to "doom" disbelievers for not believing things that he prevented them from believing), and increased your disease of unbelief. Yours will be an awful doom. Sorry about that.
Allah has made it impossible for you to believe as the foolish believe.
And when it is said unto them: believe as the people believe, they say: shall we believe as the foolish believe? are not they indeed the foolish? But they know not. 2:13
And after you die he'll torture you forever for it.

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Bogging the Quran
Surah 2:14-24 -- Produce a surah the like thereof
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by Steve Wells at 6/16/2010 09:14:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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10 comments:
 Matthew Blanchette said...
Wow... maybe you should change the name of the blog to Diseases in Unbelief? ;-)
Just kidding, Steve; I like the way you tore apart the completely random letters at the beginning of the surah, as well...
Wed Jun 16, 05:24:00 PM 2010 
 I am the wise fool. said...
Gee, it Qu'ran had such a nice beginning in your previous post. It sure went to hell in hand basket rather quickly!
It's interesting to see the different perspectives between Jewish, Christian, and Muslim scriptures.
Jewish: Yup, we Jews the Chosen People, but you Gentiles can worship too if you want.
Christian: Tell everyone about the Good News so that everyone will get the chance to choose God. (Although, they have already been chosen since before man was made according to the theology of Election.)
Muslim: If you were brought up Muslim, you are in. Everyone else: sucks to be you!
I have to say (as a Gentile), between the three I think I like the Jewish approach the best.
Wed Jun 16, 07:06:00 PM 2010 
 kat said...
Verse 2---This is a Book; in it is Guidance sure, without doubt, for those who are "muttaqueen"(Arabic)
Cooment----"Mutaqueen" means--one who has Taqwa, and Taqwa means Love of God/God-awareness.
Verse 3-5 is a definition of one who has God awareness (Taqwa)
The criteria is as follows---1)Belief in Unseen (for example---God)2)who pray, 3)do charity 4) believe in revelation (both this one andprevious ones)5) believe in hereafter.
Verses 6 to 20 describe people who reject goodness/guidance and the various stages of such people---1)those who do so out of ignorance, 2)those who do so because they are hypocrites, 3)and others who do so because they want to cause "mischief on earth".
Verse 6---As to those who reject faith, it is the same to them whether you warn them or do not warn them; they will not beleive.
Comment---God has given us all free-will---we can choose to use this free-will for better or for worse. (right belief inspires right intentions that lead to right actions for the benefit of all of God's creations)
Wed Jun 16, 08:42:00 PM 2010 
 twillight said...
To I am the wise fool :
christianity: If you are not one of us, you'll be annihilated. (according to the Bible)
muslims: If you are not one of us, you'll be torchured forever. (according to the Quran)
jews: If you are not one of us, you're worse than animals. (according to the Talmud)

I think from this approach christianity is best, and jews are the worst. But all three are terrible.
Thu Jun 17, 01:22:00 AM 2010 
 Matthew Blanchette said...
Hey, well at least the Jews are nice about it, nowadays... :-S
Thu Jun 17, 01:15:00 PM 2010 
 TaoCat said...
@kat-
"Comment---God has given us all free-will---we can choose to use this free-will for better or for worse. (right belief inspires right intentions that lead to right actions for the benefit of all of God's creations) "
You do realise that's not what the words say, right? It kinda implies that Allah, the just, merciful pig-lover has blinded everybody not already signed up for the lovely program of hatred and misogyny? Just sayin'.
Fri Jun 18, 12:53:00 AM 2010 
 kat said...
an interesting point TaoCat
verse 6
As to those who reject faith
It is the same to them whether you warn them or do not warn them;
they will not believe.
verse 7
God has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing.
and on their eyes is a veil;
Great is the chastisement they incur.
Free-will---verse 6 starts with the phrase "as to those who reject faith"---meaning that a person uses his free-will to reject a "proposition"--which in this case is guidance/goodness. After this choice has been made---God may choose to seal their hearts....etc.
Faith---the Quran rejects blind faith and encourages the use of the intellect and reason for "belief"(---this is spelled out later in the story of Prophet Abraham(pbuh) and his struggle with belief)
I appreciate your reading my comment---thankyou. If you find my views offensive, you could skip them?
Fri Jun 18, 11:04:00 AM 2010 
 servantofallah said...
I am the wise fool- you said ''Muslim: If you were brought up Muslim, you are in. Everyone else: sucks to be you!'' then why do you think that islam is a growing religion even though non-muslims are becomeing muslims. there are priests, preacher, father and pope who are coverting to islam. so this tells that everybody doesn't suck. allah said in the noble quran 24:46 ''...And Allah guides whom He wills to a straight path.'' therefore allah even guides the non-muslims to the stright path (islam) . this is why you should not speak something you don't know.
Thu Oct 24, 01:51:00 PM 2013 
 Author Prayatna said...
The Meaning of Alif Lam Mim:
Up until the arrival of wisdom of Mahamati Prannath, the world only knew of one Muhmammed, the great Muhammed, the Rasul of Allah himself.
Now, here is the thing - “Not only is there one great Muhammed of Allah,, there are two other great Muhammed(s) of Allah who were completely hidden by Allah’s will until the final hour!”
Unbelievable, isn’t it? But believe it!
In total, there are 3 face(s) of Muhammed of Allah. They are:
1. Rasul Muhammed
2. Isa Ruh Allah
3. Imam Muhammed Mahdi
The first face of Muhammed is Rasul who revealed the Quran. The second face of Muhammed is Isa Ruh Allah who brought the wisdom of Lahut of Allah. And the third face of Muhammed is Imam Muhammed Mahdi who brought down the revelations of the wisdom of Haqqiqat (knowledge that acquaints you with the hidden meanings of the Quran) and Marifaat (knowledge that acquaints you with the identity of Allah), of Islam.
Alif Lam Mim consists of three different letters. Each letter i.e. Alif, Lam and Mim represent three distinct Muhammad(s) of Allah. Alif Lam Mim is therefore the name of 3 Muhammad(s) of Allah. They are:
1. (The 1st letter) Alif is the name of Rasul Muhammed - the first Muhammed.
2. (The 2nd letter) Lam is the name of Isa Ruh Allah, Devchandra Mehta - the second Muhammed.
3. (The 3rd letter) Finally, Mim is the name of Imam Muhammed Mahdi, Meher Raj Thakur - the final Muhammed himself!
Keep in mind that each Muhammed of Allah had arrived in this world, with their specific task in hand. Firstly, Allah sent the Quran to Alif. So, the primary task of Alif was to bring the Quran, which he did. Secondly, Allah gave the wisdom of his identity to Lam. So, the primary task of Lam was to bring and spread the wisdom of Allah’s identity, which he did. And lastly, Allah gave his full authority to Mim so that Mim could do judgment on his behalf. Therefore, Mim did the judgment of the Judgment Day at the Judgment Day.
So, when Rasul Muhammed’s spirit and Isa Ruh Allah’s spirit merged with Meher Raj Thakur’s spirit, the spiritual forces combined to what became to be known as Alif Lam Mim.
Therefore, Alif + Lam + Mim = Mahamati Prannath
http://sanandhonline.blogspot.com/2013/05/alif-lam-mim-unlocked-part-i.html
Fri Nov 22, 07:27:00 AM 2013 
 Professor Inspector said...
I will say only this:
1. Many people like to make themselves big and look better by blasphemy and lies about religion. Also, in making fantastical additions to the religion of God.
In my opinion, these are amongst the worst of people, but God knows best.
2. Yeah, you are for sure right that God is talking about himself, telling us about himself. Wait, you think you can relate to the One, the Supreme?
He is above all else, He is the One, the Wise. He wants us to worship Him, and Him alone, the Creator, the Master. These are His names.
And you best fear Him, and ask of Him guidance!
And RESPECT HIM HAD YOU ANY SENSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
He is the Lord, the Irresistible.
The Absolute, the One.
Prasied be He, of the most perfect Names!
Sun Mar 02, 05:46:00 AM 2014 
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 15 June 2010Jesus: I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven
Jesus was struck by lightning last night. I guess this is what he was talking about when told his disciples:

I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Luke 10:18
Of course, Jesus was in one of his crazy moods at the time. Here's what he said right after his vision of Satan.

Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions ... and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Luke 10:19
In any case, this is what he look like yesterday.

And here's what he looked like last night after Satan fell as lightning from heaven.


I think he looks a lot better in the second picture. (Thanks Satan!)
Posted by Steve Wells at 6/15/2010 10:07:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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20 comments:
 mikespeir said...
I'll confess I take a puerile delight in this. I'm ashamed that I do, and if I could wave a magic wand and give them their wacky statue back I would. (No, I wouldn't work or give money toward it.) God or Satan or Zeus or whomever didn't do this. It was just a freak accident of nature. I'm sure even the congregants there will see it that way. On the other hand, if it had been something unusually good that happened, well, that would've been the work of God!
Tue Jun 15, 11:52:00 AM 2010 
 Matthew Blanchette said...
You should've seen the comments on the news site you posted, Steve; a shitload of Jesus freaks were congregatin' on there... :-D
Tue Jun 15, 01:49:00 PM 2010 
 Ian G. said...
I seem to remember something about graven images in the Bible. Maybe God was expressing his displeasure. Has Pat Robertson chimed in yet?
Tue Jun 15, 05:16:00 PM 2010 
 D.O.K said...
I'm confused...
Why is "I give you the authority to trample over snakes and scorpians" a crazy thing to say?
The statue looked pretty silly. And that's a sure ridiculous way to spend $700,00 of what i can only guess was 'tithe' money... but *I* would doubt that it was the work of God. Unfortunate (or fortunate) coincedence really.
I do hope they don't spend more money on a statue of Jesus looking up to heaven - i don't what they intended for the desired effect to be - but to me it would seem they are being proud and obnoxious.
Wed Jun 16, 01:20:00 AM 2010 
 Robert Rand said...
"...the giant Hustler Hollywood sign for the adult store across the street was untouched."
Thank God.

"Burning Jesus statue 'a sign, and not a good one,' church member tells WHIO-TV"
Think this about sums it up...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBSHRD9B5tM
Wed Jun 16, 05:39:00 AM 2010 
 I am the wise fool. said...
If only there was a sign from Heaven to confirm our doctrinal beliefs...
Wed Jun 16, 08:17:00 AM 2010 
 Darren Delgado said...
mikespeir said...
I'll confess I take a puerile delight in this.
I don't think it's peurile at all. The original statue was peurile. The fact that it was demolished in such an appropriate way is awesome.
Wed Jun 16, 12:52:00 PM 2010 
 Steve Wells said...
D.O.K., you don't think it's strange that Jesus gave his disciples the power to step on snakes and scorpions with no ill effects?
Do you think the disciples couldn't be harmed by snakes or scorpions?
Wed Jun 16, 04:35:00 PM 2010 
 D.O.K said...
I *believe* Mr Christ (ha - first time i've thought to call him that)was speaking about demonic beings. You know... the serpent (Eve - apple - tree - all that stuff)being satan. And there are references in Revelation about the scorpian being a metephor for demons.
Plus for dramatic effect as "i give you the authority to trample over ladybugs and earthworms" doesn't instill as much confidence, right?
Also in the dot-dot-dots that you put in it says : "and to overcome all the power of the enemy" which, you know - explains the metephor part ergo making it less crazy :)
Wed Jun 16, 05:49:00 PM 2010 
 Steve Wells said...
OK. I see, D.O.K.. When Jesus said that his disciples could tread on snakes and scorpions, he meant they would have power over evil spirits. And when he said that nothing could hurt his disciples, he meant that evil spirits couldn't hurt them.
Which is less crazy? To believe in evil spirits or in harmless snakes and scorpions?
Wed Jun 16, 07:05:00 PM 2010 
 D.O.K said...
Definitely less crazy to believe in evil spirits. *Everyone* knows that there's no such thing as a harmless snake - oh wait - unless he was talking about a carpet snake - in that case there goes my ENTIRE theory ;)
Haha. *I* have a MASSIVE phobia of snakes AND a MASSIVE belief in God, so i guess for me the former is much less crazy...
Wed Jun 16, 07:35:00 PM 2010 
 Steve Wells said...
So do you think Jesus was talking about harmless snakes or evil spirits, D.O.K.? It would be nice to get an honest answer here.
Wed Jun 16, 08:06:00 PM 2010 
 D.O.K said...
I believe Jesus was talking about the works of the enemy. Evil spirits included.
Honest? Was i not being honest in my other posts? I thought it was pretty clear bar the jest behind my "carpet snake" comment. Gosh i'm funny sometimes :)
Wed Jun 16, 08:34:00 PM 2010 
 Steve Wells said...
D.O.K.,
You said, "I believe Jesus was talking about the works of the enemy."
Who or what do you think Jesus meant by "enemy"?
And what do you think Jesus meant when he said, "nothing shall by any means hurt you"? (I guess he didn't really mean that nothing by any means hurt his disciples. Right? Just like he didn't really mean to say that he gave them power to walk on snakes and scorpions when he told them that he gave them power to walk on snakes and scorpions.)
Wed Jun 16, 08:56:00 PM 2010 
 D.O.K said...
Enemy = (you really want me to say it? And if so, is it just so i'll play into your plan and look like one of those "Crazy Christian people"... oh okay, if it will make you happy... it's) Satan.
Also - no, He DEFINITELY meant to say Snakes and Scorpians - i guess people who read the ENTIRE bible would just know what that meant :)
And when He said "nothing will hurt you" .. I *believe* He meant that there would be no consequences to them from trampling on snakes and scorpians. I mean since its in the same sentence - MOST people would assume He was talking about the thing He has just said.. right? Right? No... okay. Well that's what i think.
He meant that nothing would harm them spiritually when coming up again evil spirits.
For the record - *I* would be pretty inclined to think that they were protected from everything anyway and NOTHING actually would harm them - they were afterall chosen for a specific task - therefore pretty awesomely and divinely protected (spritually, physically etc)... *I* would say.
Wed Jun 16, 09:18:00 PM 2010 
 Steve Wells said...
Thanks, D.O.K. I think I understand you now. Here is what I think you believe about Luke 10:19.
But tell me if I've got it wrong.
1. Jesus gave his disciples the ability to tread on poisonous snakes and scorpions without fear of any harm.
2. Jesus also gave his disciples power over Satan and evil spirits (which you believe are real beings).
3. Jesus gave his disciples protection from everything on earth that could possibly harm them. ("Nothing will by any means hurt you.")
And that is why I said that Jesus was in one of his crazy moods when he said he saw Satan fall from heaven as lightning in Luke 10:18.
Wed Jun 16, 09:35:00 PM 2010 
 D.O.K said...
mmm...
1) sure why not.
2) *authority* over snakes and scorpians/evil spirits - yes. Satan/evil spirits only have the power they are given. Believers have the power of God - God totally trumps Satan!
3) mmmm....maybe. I believe they were called for such a time and there was a plan to be fulfilled through them and becuase of that destiny they were protected to fulfill it... yes.
Really? you STILL think its crazy? Huh... seems quite sensible to me... oh well maybe i *am* one of those crazy christian people afterall...dang! :)
Wed Jun 16, 10:04:00 PM 2010 
 Steve Wells said...
D.O.K.,
"you STILL think its crazy?"
Yes. My opinion hasn't changed.
"Huh... seems quite sensible to me... oh well maybe i *am* one of those crazy christian people afterall...dang!"
And yes. You seem to be a crazy Christian after all.
Wed Jun 16, 10:12:00 PM 2010 
 D.O.K said...
Haha...
"Yes. My opinion hasn't changed."
And here i was thinking i could be the one to change you...
ho hum!
Wed Jun 16, 10:28:00 PM 2010 
 Kris said...
Copyright claim? Whatever was in the video that I can't see, how could that fit a copyright infringement? Whoever shot the documentary footage has copyright claim. Did that person shoot footage, post it, and then file a claim against themselves? Is there something I'm missing by virtue of not having seen it?
Fri Jun 18, 04:55:00 PM 2010 
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 12 June 20101 Nephi 2: The incredible journey begins
God speaks to Lehi in a dream and tells him to leave Jerusalem and go "into the wilderness."
The Lord spake unto my father, yea, even in a dream ... and ... the Lord commanded my father, even in a dream, that he should take his family and depart into the wilderness. 1 Nephi 2:1-2
So, with no further instructions, he and his family go into the wild. (Lehi's family included his wife Sariah, and four sons, Laman, Lemuel, Sam, and Nephi.)
He departed into the wilderness ... with ... his family. 1 Nephi 2:4
Very quickly, and with no problem at all, they find themselves over 400 kilometers away, at "the shore of the Red Sea."
He came down by the borders near the shore of the Red Sea. 1 Nephi 2:5
Apparently the hike from Jerusalem to the Red Sea took only three days. I guess the family was in really good shape.
When he had traveled three days in the wilderness, he pitched his tent in a valley by the side of a river of water. 1 Nephi 1:6
Here's what Lehi's trip looked like in Google Earth.

But maybe the "three days" referred not to the length of the trip itself, but how long it took to find a good camping spot once they got there. I've had that problem before.
In any case and however long it took them to get there, when they arrived they found a continually flowing river that emptied into the Red Sea. (There aren't any permanent rivers that flow into the Red Sea, and there hasn't been for thousands of years. But God probably made one just for the occasion and then destroyed any evidence of it after Lehi and his family left. For a good time watch: Where is the River Laman?)
Lehi named the river after his slacker son, Laman, hoping it would inspire him to be more dependable, like the "continually running" river.
He called the name of the river, Laman, and it emptied into the Red Sea ... saying: O that thou mightest be like unto this river, continually running. 1 Nephi 2:8
And Lehi named the valley after his other worthless son, Lemuel, hoping it would somehow make him more "steadfast" and "immovable" like the big valley that the River Laman passed through.
And he also spake unto Lemuel: O that thou mightest be like unto this valley, firm and steadfast, and immovable in keeping the commandments of the Lord! 1 Nephi 2:10
But the magic didn't work. Laman and Lemuel were still a couple of whiny-ass, pieces of shit that were "like unto the Jews."
Now this he spake because of the stiffneckedness of Laman and Lemuel; for behold they did murmur in many things against their father.
....
They were like unto the Jews. 1 Nephi 2:11-13
Nephi wasn't like his older brothers, though. He didn't have a Jew-like bone in his body. (OK, he was a Jew, too, but he didn't act like one.) He wanted to know the mysteries of God, so he cried unto the Lord.
I, Nephi, ... having great desires to know of the mysteries of God, wherefore, I did cry unto the Lord 1 Nephi 2:16a
And, by golly, the Lord heard him and came to visit him to soften up his heart so he'd believe whatever the hell his bat-shit crazy dad said.
And behold he did visit me, and did soften my heart that I did believe all the words which had been spoken by my father; wherefore, I did not rebel against him like unto my brothers. 1 Nephi 2:16b
And the dumb-as-shit Sam went along with whatever the Holy Spirit revealed to his younger brother Nephi.
And I spake unto Sam, making known unto him the things which the Lord had manifested unto me by his Holy Spirit. And it came to pass that he believed in my words. 1 Nephi 2:17
But Laman and Lemuel wouldn't listen to Nephi because they suffered from Pharaoh's syndrome: the hardening of the heart. So Nephi asked his good friend God what to do about it.
But, behold, Laman and Lemuel would not hearken unto my words; and being grieved because of the hardness of their hearts I cried unto the Lord for them. 1 Nephi 2:18
God, who happened to be visiting at the time, told Nephi what a good boy he was, that he would live long and prosper, and that God would lead him to a new land, a land that God had prepared just for him (and the Mormons) and that was better than everywhere else on earth. (Spoiler: God's talking about America here. God made the entire western hemisphere for Nephi and it's way better than anything in the Old World.)
Blessed art thou, Nephi, because of thy faith, for thou hast sought me diligently, with lowliness of heart ... Ye shall prosper, and shall be led to a land of promise; yea, even a land which I have prepared for you; yea, a land which is choice above all other lands. 1 Nephi 2:19-20
God goes on (and on) about what a great guy Nephi is and all the cool things he's going to do for him. But God hates Nephi's brothers, which he'll soon be cursing "even with a sore curse."
And inasmuch as thy brethren shall rebel against thee, they shall be cut off from the presence of the Lord ... For behold, in that day that they shall rebel against me, I will curse them even with a sore curse. 1 Nephi 2:21-23
The chapter ends with God saying something about how if Nephi's brothers continue to misbehave, he'll have to "stir them up in the ways of remembrance."
And if it so be that they rebel against me, they shall be a scourge unto thy seed, to stir them up in the ways of remembrance. 1 Nephi 2:24
I don't know what that means. God sometimes talks funny when he gets excited in the Book of Mormon (especially when he starts quoting the New Testament, 700 years before it was written).

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Posted by Steve Wells at 6/12/2010 12:01:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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13 comments:
 K.G. said...
Mormonism: the first religion based on obvious fanfiction.
Sat Jun 12, 09:14:00 PM 2010 
 twillight said...
Hm, so you don't have a separate blog for the Quran, Steve.
The previous was more appealing, but this is satisfying too, don't worry too much.
And thanks for the video about that river. It was really hilarious :)
Sun Jun 13, 02:01:00 AM 2010 
 Tristan D. Vick said...
Keep up the good work tallying the death toll!
Sun Jun 13, 07:20:00 AM 2010 
 Steve Wells said...
I've thought about separating the blogs, twillight, but then I'd have to come up with two new names.
And I figured out how to revert my template to the old one, more or less. Let me know if you have suggestions.
Sun Jun 13, 07:39:00 AM 2010 
 Matthew Blanchette said...
No need to separate it, Steve; it all fits under the same umbrella.
By the way, is it just me, or were you making a reference to this with your title? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Incredible_Journey
;-)
Sun Jun 13, 08:37:00 AM 2010 
 busterggi said...
Hey Steve, I preferred the newer layout - I refuse to join any herd.
A study really needs to be done on why just plain bad writing appeals to religionist.
Sun Jun 13, 08:40:00 AM 2010 
 Matthew Blanchette said...
I like this nice, bright white... but, again, the serif is too formal. :-(
Still, overall design's nice. ;-)
Sun Jun 13, 08:52:00 AM 2010 
 Steve Wells said...
Well, busterggi, I saved the old (new) template this time, so I could go back to it if necessary. But it's probably better not to change things too much, since that's what people are used to seeing here.
And yes, Matthew, I guess I was (sort of) referring that movie, although Lehi's journey was way more incredible.
Sun Jun 13, 10:17:00 AM 2010 
 twillight said...
Yeah, Steve, I see you changed things since morning.
The only thing now I'd consider some colouration to title-box, but this all seem nice and perfect even without that (what could even be a bad idea).
Sun Jun 13, 11:20:00 AM 2010 
 skanksta said...
I don't know...
I'm coming round to this BoM ! Surely if he can quote NT 700 years before it was written AND travel 400kms in three days he prob. DID have divine help.
Let's see what else comes to pass...
Sun Jun 13, 01:46:00 PM 2010 
 Matthew Blanchette said...
I'd still like some san-serif, up in heeah... :-P
Sun Jun 13, 03:13:00 PM 2010 
 Ian G. said...
"Have you heard of the River Jordan?"
"Yes"
"Have you heard of the River Laman?"
"No"
"Have you heard of the Rift Valley?"
"Yes"
"Have you heard of the Valley of Lemuel?"
"No"
That was hilarious. Of course, the Book of Mormon isn't all that different than the Bible in this respect. The River Laman doesn't exist, but neither did Abraham, Moses, or the captivity in Egypt.
Tue Jun 15, 05:15:00 PM 2010 
 862ca1bc-2cf7-11e2-a689-000bcdcb5194 said...
The chapter ends with God saying something about how if Nephi's brothers continue to misbehave, he'll have to "stir them up in the ways of remembrance."
And if it so be that they rebel against me, they shall be a scourge unto thy seed, to stir them up in the ways of remembrance. 1 Nephi 2:24
I don't know what that means. God sometimes talks funny when he gets excited in the Book of Mormon (especially when he starts quoting the New Testament, 700 years before it was written).
I think what was meant here was a warning from God that the brothers of Nephi would be trouble for his kids ("they shall be a scourge unto thy seed") but that trouble would make them remember Gods promise of a land of their own ("stir them up in the ways of remembrance")
Mon Nov 12, 10:34:00 AM 2012 
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How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
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Dwindling In Unbelief



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 11 June 2010Surah 1: The Opening -- The Lord of the Worlds
OK, since KafirGirl is no longer doing it, I guess I have to.
A couple years ago, KafirGirl started to blog the Quran. And she did an absolutely fantastic job, too. I linked to all of her posts, revising the SAQ as she went along. Then, early last year and without warning, she suddenly stopped. She hasn't posted since and no one seems to know why. I sure hope she's OK.
So I've decided to start blogging my way through the Quran, starting with Surah 1. It's the only way I can force myself to re-read the Quran and revise the SAQ. I'm hoping that as I work my way through it, you'll read it along with me and point out things that I either missed or messed up.
There's not much to the first surah (or sura), just seven short verses (or ayat).
Here's the first verse.
1. In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
Now that sounds nice enough, until you read a bit more of the Quran and see just how anti-Beneficent and anti-Merciful Allah really is. But I'll save that for later.
The next verse is the most interesting to me. Allah is the "Lord of the Worlds."
2. Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds,
Does this mean that the Quran recognizes, prophesies even, the existence of other solar systems, planets, and earth-like worlds, an idea that Giordano Bruno was burned alive for (at least in part) nearly 1000 years after the Quran was written?
If so, then the Quran gets off to a better start (as far as science is concerned, anyway) in Surah 1 than the Bible does in Genesis 1.
And then Allah has to blow it all by repeating himself, saying how beneficent and merciful he is. He just lied bragged about that two verses ago.
3. The Beneficent, the Merciful.
Now we get to stuff that Allah really cares about: the Day of Judgment. As we'll see later, Allah is completely obsessed with it.
4. Master of the Day of Judgment,
Allah, like his buddy Yahweh, is stuck on himself. He wants us all to grovel in front of him forever. Worship him alone; ask him for help; ignore everyone and everything else.
5. Thee (alone) we worship; Thee (alone) we ask for help.
And if you do that, then maybe, if you ask him nicely, he'll tell you what to do. Just don't try to think about it yourself.
6. Show us the straight path,
The straight path, by the way, is the path of those that Allah favors (Muslims).
7a. The path of those whom Thou hast favoured;
All non-Muslims have either gone astray (like the Christians) or have earned Allah's anger (like the Jews).
7b. Not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray.
And that's the end of the first surah, Allah's praise of, and prayer to, himself.
I know that was kind of boring. But Allah has lots of interesting things to say in the next Surah. So don't give up on the Quran just yet.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bogging the Quran
Surah 2:1-13 -- Allah is wise, mysterious, funny
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by Steve Wells at 6/11/2010 01:01:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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22 comments:
 Matthew Blanchette said...
Interesting... but why have you completely redone your blog page? The thing is a design eyesore, now! :-S
It'd probably be best for the content of your site, Steve, if you didn't have such a distracting layout around it.
Fri Jun 11, 04:36:00 PM 2010 
 Steve Wells said...
Yeah, sorry about that. I was just messing around and before I knew it I'd messed it up. I feel like the Wizard leaving Oz in the balloon. I can't go back, I don't know how it works.
Fri Jun 11, 04:46:00 PM 2010 
 skanksta said...
Changing the slimy green to black and it would look good imo ?
Great start on the Koran.
Fri Jun 11, 05:00:00 PM 2010 
 Steve Wells said...
Do I have a slimy green background, skanksta? I thought it was brown/tan or something. (I got rid of the creepy orange thing. Didn't I?)
Fri Jun 11, 05:10:00 PM 2010 
 martin44 said...
The first important change to make to your commentary is that the alleged God didn't 'write' the Qur'an in the order it now appears so in at least one sense it's not true to say that the alleged God 'started' with Sura 1.
God also usually sounds strangely like he consideres himself to be in the plural and/or the third person so that's also worth an early mention to avoid/cause confusion.
Otherwise, I look forward to your further insights.
Fri Jun 11, 05:51:00 PM 2010 
 Matthew Blanchette said...
I like the design, now, but the font is too formal for me... if you understand what I mean; it's too serif-ey. :-P
Also, if Allah wrote the Qu'ran, why is he referring to himself in the third person in this surah?
As a final point, I'm pretty curious as to your opinion on the Diatessaron, the supposed "Gospel harmony" that became hugely popular in Syriac and Arabic Christianity... and may have even influenced the Qu'ran itself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatessaron ;-)
Fri Jun 11, 06:36:00 PM 2010 
 Steve Wells said...
Thanks, Matthew, for your suggestions on the blog design. I need all the help I can get with that sort of thing. (And I've changed to a non-serif type font.)
And you're right about the Allah's use of the third person in Surah 1. I guess Allah made an exception for this surah.
I hadn't heard about Tatian's gospel harmony. If the church had of adopted it would have saved it a whole lot of trouble. Thanks for telling me about it.
Fri Jun 11, 07:15:00 PM 2010 
 skanksta said...
I meant the slimy, green colour of the slimy, green typeface !
Anyways....
There is a strange mood descended on London town - everyone is wearing national dress, flags hang from every tavern, building and car. Every newspaper, tv and conversation is talking about one thing...
June 11th, Group C
ENGLAND vs USA from Rustenburg (altitude) from 19.30 local time, South Africa !
You guys gonna get it....
Sat Jun 12, 02:42:00 AM 2010 
 Luftritter said...
I'm a long time reader, excellent work as always, Steve!
What a wonderful timing!
I just finished with the Bible today and in fact I was planning reading your comments on Revelation today and afterwards start with the Quran.
It will be a pleasure read the book alongside all of you.
By the way I read that you are supposed to say amin every time you read a surah (it's the "sonna", custom)and if you are a real muslim you need to read it in arabic, even if you don't understand arabic, because otherwise, the Quran magic do not work.
I think that if you do it like that the only thing you will achieve is putting yourself in a hypnotic trance...
Oh wait!!!
Sat Jun 12, 11:50:00 AM 2010 
 Matthew Blanchette said...
"I hadn't heard about Tatian's gospel harmony. If the church had adopted it would have saved it a whole lot of trouble. Thanks for telling me about it."
You're welcome... except that I think the whole "four gospels" concept was already entrenched in church theology due to that giant prick Irenaeus, not to mention that nobody dared to try and actually dig further, to see if there was any historical truth (or even a historical man) under the bullcrap the Gospels were peddling: http://jesuspuzzle.humanists.net/home.htm
Sat Jun 12, 03:15:00 PM 2010 
 busterggi said...
Shanksta - no we Americans are not going to get it.
Real Americans aren't soccer fans.
Sun Jun 13, 08:43:00 AM 2010 
 skanksta said...
You didn't get it.
:(
Sun Jun 13, 01:40:00 PM 2010 
 busterggi said...
Shanksta - I almost never do.
Mon Jun 14, 06:45:00 AM 2010 
 Srinivasan said...
The Qur'an commentary couldn't have been timelier, what with the escalation of tension around the world fed by Islamic fundamentalism and all. We can better understand what exactly makes such entities like Al-Qaeda and its hordes of militant suidide bombers tick.
It's clear that Allah is loosely modelled after Yahweh, in terms of his temparament. But whereas the cruelty of Yahweh is largely contextual, the Qur'an has no context, and everything said therein is applicable for all eternity. So all the verses calling for the annihilation of the Jews, pagans, idolators and pretty much everyone who doesn't believe in this sick ideology, is very much practised by its deranged adherents today.
At least the Yahwists acknowledge the biblical cruelty and admit it doesn't apply in the modern context.
Tue Jun 15, 12:22:00 AM 2010 
 kat said...
Steve, if you are annoyed by my comments---feel free to let me know, i'll bugger off....
"We" in Quran----It is understood to be the "royal We"---as in denoting the office.
The Quran is divided into roughly two, the early revelations that occured in Mecca and the later revelations that occured in Medina/Yathrib. These are not precise divisions as some early (Meccan verses) ended up in the later Surahs and some later verses ended up in the earlier surahs. This is because as the revelations came, the Prophet(pbuh)instructed exactly where in the Quran they were meant to go.
As to context----The Quran is always read in context (unless it is being recited for purposes of prayer) The context comes from Tafsir. Translation of Quran with tafsir of Muhammed Asad is on the net for free another tafsir that is popular is one of Yusuf Ali---it is not on the net but could be found in the library. M. Asad, is a convert (from Judaism) and may be a bit harsh on the "people of the book"(Jews and Christians) in his tafsir---but otherwise he does a good job of placing the verses in context and in providing semantics.
Wed Jun 16, 09:00:00 PM 2010 
 kat said...
If you want to know about Suicide terrorism---read Robert Pape's "Dying to win"---the strategic logic of suicide terrorism---it is a book based on fact-based research data and not on myths.
Wed Jun 16, 09:03:00 PM 2010 
 Steve Wells said...
No, kat, I'm not annoyed by your comments. I'd be interested, though, to know (if you don't mind sharing the information) what your views are with respect to the Quran. Are you a believer, skeptic, disbeliever, or what?
Wed Jun 16, 09:12:00 PM 2010 
 kat said...
I am a Muslim. I read the Yusuf Ali translation with Tafsir.
Sometimes, some Non-Muslims feel they know how to understand the Quran better than Muslims and this can cause misunderstanding and confusion---so, I try to bring the Muslim perspective to those who might be interested. Not everyone is interested---they would rather stick with the "Islam is bad" narrative---if that is the case, they may find my views annoying and it is best to let me know upfront.
As an example---In the Quran the word "Muslim" means "one who submits"(to God)---it does not mean "follower of Prophet Muhammed(pbuh)"---though it is used this way by Muslims today in the social context. However, the Quran uses this word differently, such as calling Prophet Abraham(pbuh) a Muslim---because he was "one who submits"(to God).
Yusuf Ali, Pickthall, M. Asad are more or less accepted translations by mainstream Muslims. However, in all these translations, the bias of the translator comes through---which is why they are not considered The Quran, only translations of the Quran.
If you have questions please ask. I won't be offended if people are skeptical....as long as it is done in the spirit of dialogue.
Thu Jun 17, 07:23:00 PM 2010 
 relysew said...
I'm coming a bit late to this, but I found it and wanted to throw in my two cents. Like kat, I have a slightly different view of all this, though not because I'm a Muslim. I was actually raised Christian but am now agnostic for everyone else, i.e. for some people there might be a God, but atheist for me.
Aaaanyway, my slightly different view stems from the fact that I am double majoring in linguistics and religion, with a focus on Arabic and Islam as well as the other Judeo-Christian religions.
So, let me start off by saying that your version of the Qur'an has been translated into English (duh), and ignoring the fact that Muslims would say that as such it is just an interpretation because Arabic is supposed to be the language of the angels, it is an interpretation for the sole reason that translating one language into another is difficult; concessions must always be made as to how to translate it, though another way might better explain what Muslims get out of the text, or at least not raise questions of supposed contradictions. For example, this "Lord of the Worlds" line could also be taken from Arabic to be "Ruler of the Universe." As you can see, this translation isn't quite so contradictory.
Even if you could read Arabic (which, believe me, is very difficult, especially if your native language is a Western one), your interpretation of the Qur'an could and probably would differ from someone else's, especially a Muslim's. Some Muslim scholars devote their lives to studying the Qur'an, attempting to divine more meaning from it. Apparently there are I think seven meanings to a given text, and the seventh is only for God to know. But you see my point. Though I'm inclined to agree with you that God doesn't exist, going through the Qur'an and trying to point out all it's contradictions knowledgably can become impossible unless you were raised in a Muslim, Arabic-speaking home.
I know I feel much more comfortable pointing out all the ridiculousness in the Bible.
Also, Yahweh and Allah are the same God, at least how I've come to understand it in my studies. That's why Christians and Jews are considered People of the Book: their worship of one God is considered right by Muslims, but Jews brought down Yahweh/God/Allah's wrath by bringing politics into the religion, and Christians went astray by deifying Jesus.
Sun Jan 16, 07:11:00 AM 2011 
 Uss said...
I am a Muslim. I read the Quraan (& understand it) in Arabic. It's VERY different from reading a translation. May sound like a Cliche, but literally, a lot is lost in translation. So, when you criticize the wording of a verse, realize it's the wording chosen by the translator, not the Author. Even if we assume that there is a "perfect" translation (which is impossible, anyone who's multilingual knows this), the properties of the Arabic language are lost. One example is that you can take a verb, add letters/vowels to increase the extent of the action or take away from it to decrease the extent. Most likely, all 3 forms of the verb would be translated the same in English.
Having that said, I'm happy to answer any questions you have from an Arabic speaker about the Quraan as long as it doesn't involve mockery of Allah or any of the Prophets. Genuine questions pls!
What is considered the first verse of this chapter is actually an opening phrase to all the chapters in the Quraan (w/one exception)... so, it is exactly a self repetition. How ever, there are several verses that are repeated in the Quraan; whether for emphasis, grabbing the attention of the listener, communicating an emotion...etc.
Mon May 23, 09:04:00 AM 2011 
 Syeem said...
quran is allah's words, right? so, who the hell is speaking here? allah talking to himself, asking him to show him the right path? erm.. ima freakin' confuchingfused here... wait, what? errr...
Wed Oct 05, 03:05:00 AM 2011 
 Grover said...
In discussions with Muslims on other boards I have learnt that Muslims have to learn the Quran in Arabic in order to earn sort of points that allow them through the gates of heaven. Thus hundreds of millions of Muslims who do not speak Arabic may be able to recite parts of the Quran in Arabic, but they don't know the meaning of what they say. Bizarre but apparently true. This is not perceived as an embarrassment because of the taboo of questioning their actions. If it's not questioned then it's fine, no, really, it is. ;-)
Of course like modern spoken English and Medieval English, the Arabic in use on the streets of Mecca is quite different, if not practically unintelligible, to the one as spoken 1,300 years ago. As such I'd like to know whether ANY Arabic speaker can understand the gist of ANY passage without reference to someone's inherently biased interpretation via a Tafsir - an explanatory note.
I'd also like to know whether Arabic versions of the Quran include parenthetical additions as you typically get in English versions - in order that the passages make sense or for clarification.
Sat Oct 19, 01:26:00 AM 2013 
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Dwindling In Unbelief



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 09 June 20101 Nephi 1: And it came to pass exceedingly
As you may have noticed, I've been neglecting the Quran and the Book of Mormon lately. And I feel bad about that. So I've decided to blog my way through both god-awful books, revising the SAQ and SABoM as I go along. So if you see things that I've missed, misunderstood, misstated, or messed up, this is your chance to let me know.
The first book of the Book of Mormon is the First Book of Nephi. The author is a guy named Nephi who thinks quite a lot of himself. He had "goodly parents" was "highly favored of the Lord" and had "a great knowledge of the goodness and the mysteries of God."
I, Nephi, having been born of goodly parents, therefore I was taught somewhat in all the learning of my father; and having seen many afflictions in the course of my days, nevertheless, having been highly favored of the Lord in all my days; yea, having had a great knowledge of the goodness and the mysteries of God, therefore I make a record of my proceedings in my days. 1 Nephi 1:1
Nephi wrote in "the language of his father" -- Egyptian, which is a strange language for a an Israelite of 600 BCE to write in. But, then, we must get used to strange things if we are to read the Book of Mormon.
Yea, I make a record in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians. 1 Nephi 1:2
Nephi tells us that everything he's writing is complete bullshit.
Just kidding. It's all true because Nephi says it is. And if you can't believe a pompous, Egyptian-speaking Hebrew that supposedly lived 2600 years ago, who can you believe?
And I know that the record which I make is true; and I make it with mine own hand; and I make it according to my knowledge. 1 Nephi 1:3
Next, something comes to pass.
For it came to pass.... 1 Nephi 1:4a
This is the first of the 1297 times (that I've counted, anyway) that something comes to pass in the Book of Mormon. It's one of the things you notice as soon as you start reading the book.
Here's what Mark Twain said about it:
The author labored to give his words and phrases the quaint, old-fashioned sound and structure of our King James's translation of the Scriptures; ... Whenever he found his speech growing too modern--which was about every sentence or two--he ladled in a few such Scriptural phrases as "exceeding sore," "and it came to pass," etc., and made things satisfactory again. "And it came to pass" was his pet. If he had left that out, his Bible would have been only a pamphlet. Roughing It, Chapter 16
What came to pass, though, came to pass in the commencement (BoM-speak for beginning) of the first year of the reign of Zedekiah, king of Judah. There was a whole lot of prophesying going on.
For it came to pass in the commencement of the first year of the reign of Zedekiah, king of Judah, (my father, Lehi, having dwelt at Jerusalem in all his days); and in that same year there came many prophets, prophesying unto the people that they must repent, or the great city Jerusalem must be destroyed. 1 Nephi 1:4
A couple more things come to pass and then Nephi's dad (Lehi) saw a pillar of fire on a rock that made him "quake and tremble exceedingly."
Wherefore it came to pass that my father, Lehi, as he went forth prayed unto the Lord, yea, even with all his heart, in behalf of his people. And it came to pass as he prayed unto the Lord, there came a pillar of fire and dwelt upon a rock before him; and he saw and heard much; and because of the things which he saw and heard he did quake and tremble exceedingly. 1 Nephi 1:5-6
After Lehi saw the burning pillar on a rock, "he thought he saw" God, lots of angels, Jesus, and the 12 apostles -- which is a strange sight for a Jew that lived 600 years before Jesus was born. (Though, as you'll see if you continue reading, strange sights are common in the BoM.)
And it came to pass that he returned to his own house at Jerusalem; and he cast himself upon his bed, being overcome with the Spirit and the things which he had seen. And being thus overcome with the Spirit, he was carried away in a vision, even that he saw the heavens open, and he thought he saw God sitting upon his throne, surrounded with numberless concourses of angels in the attitude of singing and praising their God. And it came to pass that he saw One descending out of the midst of heaven, and he beheld that his luster was above that of the sun at noon-day. And he also saw twelve others following him, and their brightness did exceed that of the stars in the firmament. 1 Nephi 1:7-10
Then God, Jesus, the apostles, and the host of angels came down from heaven to earth and God gave Lehi a book to read.
And they came down and went forth upon the face of the earth; and the first came and stood before my father, and gave unto him a book, and bade him that he should read. 1 Nephi 1:11
So Lehi read from the book, was filled with the Spirit of the Lord, and said stuff like, "Wo, wo, unto Jerusalem, for I have seen thine abominations!" and "Great and marvelous are thy works, O Lord God Almighty!" (Which means, I guess, that he was reading from the book of Revelation, which wouldn't be written for another 700 years of so.)
And it came to pass that as he read, he was filled with the Spirit of the Lord. And he read, saying: Wo, wo, unto Jerusalem, for I have seen thine abominations! Yea, and many things did my father read concerning Jerusalem -- that it should be destroyed, and the inhabitants thereof; many should perish by the sword, and many should be carried away captive into Babylon. And it came to pass that when my father had read and seen many great and marvelous things, he did exclaim many things unto the Lord; such as: Great and marvelous are thy works, O Lord God Almighty! Thy throne is high in the heavens, and thy power, and goodness, and mercy are over all the inhabitants of the earth, and, because thou art merciful, thou wilt not suffer those who come unto thee that they shall perish! And after this manner was the language of my father in the praising of his God; for his soul did rejoice, and his whole heart was filled, because of the things which he had seen, yea, which the Lord had shown unto him. 1 Nephi 1:12-15
Now Nephi tells us that he's not going to tell us all of the shit his dad said, wrote, and did while under the influence of the Spirit. Which is a good thing. I couldn't take much more of that.
And now I, Nephi, do not make a full account of the things which my father hath written, for he hath written many things which he saw in visions and in dreams; and he also hath written many things which he prophesied and spake unto his children, of which I shall not make a full account. 1 Nephi 1:16
He's (thankfully) going to just give us the abridged version of his father's babblings, which was probably a good idea since he was writing this stuff down on brass plates.
But I shall make an account of my proceedings in my days. Behold, I make an abridgment of the record of my father, upon plates which I have made with mine own hands; wherefore, after I have abridged the record of my father then will I make an account of mine own life. 1 Nephi 1:17
After Lehi saw the pillar of fire, God, Jesus, the apostles, and angels, and read from the book that God gave him, he went into town to tell the people about his day.
Therefore, I would that ye should know, that after the Lord had shown so many marvelous things unto my father, Lehi, yea, concerning the destruction of Jerusalem, behold he went forth among the people, and began to prophesy and to declare unto them concerning the things which he had both seen and heard. 1 Nephi 1:18
They all thought he was crazy, since they were a bunch of wicked, abominable Jews.
And it came to pass that the Jews did mock him because of the things which he testified of them; for he truly testified of their wickedness and their abominations; and he testified that the things which he saw and heard, and also the things which he read in the book, manifested plainly of the coming of the Messiah, and also the redemption of the world. And when the Jews heard these things they were angry with him; yea, even as with the prophets of old, whom they had cast out, and stoned, and slain; and they also sought his life, that they might take it away. But behold, I, Nephi, will show unto you that the tender mercies of the Lord are over all those whom he hath chosen, because of their faith, to make them mighty even unto the power of deliverance. 1 Nephi 1:19-20
And that's all that came to pass in chapter 1.

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Blogging the Book of Mormon
Next episode -- 1 Nephi 2: The incredible journey begins
Posted by Steve Wells at 6/09/2010 12:36:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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11 comments:
 twillight said...
Haha, this is full of crap. Good to see a new book though, thanks for that.
About Mark Twain: I don't know why only Tom Sawyer is thought from / about him in school. Let's face it: it's a crappy book for small boys only. But I think highly upon M.T. since I've come accross with his part in the atheistic movement. He was full o' fireworks there.

Anyway, on Nephi:
so that guy was a translator-scribe-madprophet-smith?
I hope more interresting thing will I hear too, as the only part I'm familiar with, is the submarines in one of the books, mentioned by Erich von Daniken (who I've met once, and speaks english on a literature-level, so I could not understand his simplest sentences, lol).
Wed Jun 09, 01:26:00 PM 2010 
 Luftritter said...
It really sounds like a godawful book. Now that I'm finishing with The Babble, it really tempts me. Too bad I just purchased my brand new Quran. Ah!, "Holy Books" the perfect cure for insomnia.
Wed Jun 09, 03:49:00 PM 2010 
 Matthew Blanchette said...
Good post, Steve, and you're right; that is some crazy, anachronistic shit that Joseph Smith was peddling. Why the South Park guys defended the "faith" in an episode is beyond me...
By the way, you mixed up the name of the king, Steve; he's listed as Zedekiah in the text box and Zechariah in your bits. I can understand correcting the BoM's mistakes, but have a little consistency, man. ;-)
Wed Jun 09, 05:12:00 PM 2010 
 Steve Wells said...
Thanks, Matthew. I've corrected the Zechariah/Zedekiah thing.
Wed Jun 09, 05:30:00 PM 2010 
 Nathan said...
I've read the Book of Mormon, and it's VERY poorly written. I've heard Black Eyed Peas songs with less repetition than that so-called holy book.
Wed Jun 09, 08:49:00 PM 2010 
 skanksta said...
I don't know...
Maybe the fact that a Jew saw Jesus 600 years BEFORE he was born is PROOF that his vision was true !
How else can you explain Jesus appearing at the time without divinie intervention ? How would someone possibly know the future Jesus unless God had inspired them ?
I come on this blog to see how ridiculous religious beliefs are, but now ?
I'm starting to believe in Mormonism, let's see what comes to pass next...
Thu Jun 10, 04:20:00 AM 2010 
 Matthew Blanchette said...
Don't worry, skansta, I went through a similar phase; you'll snap out of it once you see how ridiculously out-there Joseph Smith's "translation" of a certain Egyptian mummy papyrus was... ;-)
Thu Jun 10, 10:54:00 AM 2010 
 kilohertz said...
So, basically, the Book of Mormon is a really long, bad piece of Bible fan-fiction, using characters and settings that someone else created. Joseph Smith just added a few new minor characters and plot twists (but no slash stuff.)
Jeez, at least L. Ron Hubbard showed a little originality in his foundational documents!
Thu Jun 10, 03:53:00 PM 2010 
 TaoCat said...
Kilohertz, I nearly spewed coffee all over my laptop. What a truly succinct way to sum up moroninsm.
Tue Jun 15, 11:04:00 PM 2010 
 Abeille said...
Luftritter,
I know you posted this a while ago but just in case you haven't gotten a BOM yet, you can contact any local Mormon church and they'll send out a few missionaries and give you one for free.
I tried it, but they sent male missionaries who weren't allowed to talk to me without my husband (or father or close male friend...) present. They gave me a free BOM though.
Wed Dec 22, 11:51:00 AM 2010 
 Amos Bairn said...
Only one thing more hacky than the Book of Mormon: Orson Scott Card's Homecoming Saga, which is BoM meets sci-fi.
Fri Jan 11, 04:45:00 PM 2013 
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 06 June 2010Christian Groups: BP is an angel of God
In my last post, I included an Onion news story entitled, "Christian Groups: Biblical Armageddon Must Be Taught Alongside Global Warming." It was, of course, a parody. But it was also based on fact.
Christian teabaggers are trying to force schools to stop teaching about global warming. The earth may be warming, they say, but if so, it's not caused by people; it's caused by God. God is going to burn all non-believers to death (and then burn them forever in hell) and the believers are looking forward to it.
Now believers are saying that the Gulf oil spill is a fulfillment of Revelation 8:8-9 and 16.3.
Here's Revelation 8:8-9.
The second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died.
But if that's true, what happened to the first angel? Where was the hail and fire mingled with blood? When were a third of the trees and all of the grass burned? Did God forget to send his first angel?
The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. Revelation 8:7
And here's Revelation 16:3.
The second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
Which, of course, makes BP an angel of God.
But if so, what about the first angel? God was supposed to send some kind of nasty sores on everybody who had the mark of the beast. I'm pretty sure that if anyone had that mark, I'd have one. Where is my mark and "noisome and grievous sores?"
The first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image. Revelation 16:2
No, until God's first evil angel gives me some hemorrhoids in my secret parts or something, the ocean is safe from God's nasty plans (though obviously not from BP's).
The believers are wrong about the oil spill.
Not even BP is evil enough to be an angel of God.
(Unless BL1Y is right and God is punishing us for ignoring his prohibition against eating shellfish.)
Posted by Steve Wells at 6/06/2010 07:48:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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12 comments:
 C Woods said...
Just goes to show there is a Bible verse that can support just about every lame-brained idea anyone wants to put out there and the world is full of ignorant fools to believe what someone says it means because they really have no idea what the Bible says ---and even less about what it means.
Mon Jun 07, 04:32:00 AM 2010 
 Steve Wells said...
C Woods,
Do you know what these two verses (Rev 8:8 and 16:3) mean?
Mon Jun 07, 06:00:00 AM 2010 
 Matthew Blanchette said...
Steve, that last bit about the shellfish made me crack up; where do you find these people? :-D
Mon Jun 07, 02:45:00 PM 2010 
 Opus Croakus said...
Why blood? And is it really blood? No. It's oil. The bible says "blood", not "looks kinda like blood, if you squint your eyes, but as for cells that carry oxygen from the lungs to the rest of the body- no, not the same stuff".
Back to my first question. Why blood? There are alot more bodily fluids that the lord could have used, like urine, or saliva, or semen, or bile. Why does he always go with his trusty old standby- that mysterious fluid that symbolized life and death at one time, but is no longer so mysterious? There are other fluids the dieties seem to always neglect that we mammals an't live without.
Bllood looses it's mystery factor once you remove yourself from ancient bloodcult logic and decide to live in the 21st century.
Z
Tue Jun 08, 10:06:00 AM 2010 
 skanksta said...
Steve, you're a legend and I've never done this before, BUT...
for the first time I can remember your blog isn't the clear demolition it normally is.
You say, "surely I'll have the noisome et..." but there isn't a source - it's as confusing as the books you critique.
I sure - with a brief rewrite this case would be much clearer and more compelling.
Tue Jun 08, 07:42:00 PM 2010 
 Steve Wells said...
You don't like the word "noisome", eh skanksta? Or what?
Tue Jun 08, 08:21:00 PM 2010 
 C Woods said...
In answer to your question:
Do you know what these two verses (Rev 8:8 and 16:3) mean?
Of course I don't. But I'm not a Christian who claims I am in possession of religious truth. If I were claiming to know what the verses mean and that they were true, I would at least consult Biblical scholars who have read the Bible in its original form and studied the times in which the various parts were written. But then, I imagine I would get a different interpretation from each of them, and then, of course, my resulting opinions would only be second hand, at best.
I have read the Bible, cover to cover, several times. At least I've read it, which most of my Christian friends and family have not.
I doubt that anyone has a definitive answer about what anything in the Bible means. For one thing, it has been translated and retranslated, interpreted and then reinterpreted and misinterpreted.
As Mark Twain said in his autobiography:
“In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination, from authorities who have not themselves examined the questions at issue but have taken them at second-hand from other non-examiners, whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing.”
Tue Jun 08, 10:40:00 PM 2010 
 skanksta said...
I LOVE the word noisome !
It's just that you quote it - noisome and grievous - apropos of nothing.
I'm left with no idea of why you should have 'noisome and grievous(another great word) sores"
Wed Jun 09, 06:18:00 AM 2010 
 Steve Wells said...
Well, skanksta, I quoted Rev 16:2, which says that anyone with the mark of the beast would get some "noisome and grievous sores." I figure I ought to have the mark and the sores if anyone on earth does, but I still don't have any. So the second vial hasn't been poured yet and BP didn't pour the second vial.
I don't know how it could be more clear.
But then I don't expect you or anyone else to like all (or even any) of my posts. I write what I write because it makes sense to me.
Wed Jun 09, 07:12:00 AM 2010 
 Matthew Blanchette said...
"I doubt that anyone has a definitive answer about what anything in the Bible means. For one thing, it has been translated and retranslated, interpreted and then reinterpreted and misinterpreted."
That's sidestepping the whole issue, C Woods; religion should not be nigh untouchable, but put to the same standards as any provable theory and tested as such.
Similarly, the Bible itself should be held to scrutiny and picked apart, similarly to how the Qu'ran and Book of Mormon have been by critics outside of each religious sect.
"The argument goes something like this: 'I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God, 'for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.'
"'But,' says Man, 'the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED.'
"'Oh dear,' says God, 'I hadn't thought of that,' and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
"'Oh, that was easy,' says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing."
-- Douglas Adams
Wed Jun 09, 05:00:00 PM 2010 
 skanksta said...
Now I re-read it, it makes perfect sense - was being a douche obviously :(
On the plus side, that does now mean I DO love all your posts, lol :)
Thu Jun 10, 04:11:00 AM 2010 
 Steve Wells said...
No, skanksta, I think you were right the first time. I could have been more clear. But it's hard to be clear when you're talking about Revelation.
I was going to re-write it, but then I'd have to read the danged thing again.
Thu Jun 10, 07:39:00 AM 2010 
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 02 June 2010Global Warming: It's all a part of God's plan
There aren't many things that God enjoys more than burning people to death.
He burned everyone in Sodom and Gomorrah with fire and brimstone, burned Aaron's sons for offering him "strange fire", burned the Israelites for complaining, burned 250 men for burning incense, and burned 102 more for asking Elijah to come down from his hill. Burning people alive is just God's way of having fun.
So no one, certainly not Bible believers, should be wonder about global warming. It's not the CO2; it's God.
And he's just getting started.
Here's what God has planned for the earth.
Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand ... every man's heart shall melt ... their faces shall be as flames. Isaiah 13:6-8
The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word ... Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth ... the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left. Isaiah 24:3-6
The people shall be as the burnings of lime ... they be burned in the fire. Isaiah 33:12
For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance ... And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever. Isaiah 34:8-10
Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will kindle a fire ... and it shall devour every green tree ... and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burned therein. And all flesh shall see that I the LORD have kindled it. Ezekiel 20:47-48
The day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand ... A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth ... yea, and nothing shall escape them. Joel 2:1-3
For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven ... and the day that cometh shall burn them up. Malachi 4:1
The day of the Lord will come ... and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 2 Peter 3:10
And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory. Revelation 16:8-9
And no damned scientists ("astrologers, stargazers, and prognosticators" is about as close to "scientists" as the Bible ever gets) will be able to stop God's plan to use global warming to burn everyone to death.
Let now the astrologers, the stargazers, the monthly prognosticators, stand up, and save thee from these things that shall come upon thee ... the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame. Isaiah 47:13-14
So now you know why all true Bible believers fight against the science of global warming. Global warming is caused by God; it's God's plan to burn us all to death, just like it says in the Bible.
Don't let science rob God of his glory!


Posted by Steve Wells at 6/02/2010 10:11:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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12 comments:
 twillight said...
Global warming, eh?
So that's why around here is so cold noone ever recorded yet...
Wed Jun 02, 11:14:00 AM 2010 
 skanksta said...
OMG !
I could NOT have believed this about the USA before I stumbled on Steve's blog.
Tell me this is fake ? It must be, right ? No kids would play "fun games of being burned alive" ?!
Can't believe I fell for it...
Thu Jun 03, 02:28:00 AM 2010 
 Aaron said...
skanksta... it's the Onion News Network.. it's a parody site! lol :)
http://www.theonion.com
Thu Jun 03, 07:50:00 AM 2010 
 busterggi said...
Aaron- the Onion is a parody site but from what I've seen in Jesus Camp & such there are believers out there who wet cream their pants anticipating non-believers being burned alive.
Thu Jun 03, 02:23:00 PM 2010 
 skanksta said...
Yeah,
I realised as I was writing in outrage, but you DO really have a 'Creation Museum' so...
Fri Jun 04, 02:24:00 AM 2010 
 skanksta said...
June 11th gets ever nearer my American friends....
Where will you be ? Have you all been given the day off work ? Has every pub and tavern been covered in flags and fitted out with huge outdoor screens ?!
I'm not sure you guys are excited enough...
Sat Jun 05, 02:00:00 AM 2010 
 TaoCat said...
It speaks volumes about religion when it's hard to tell over-the-top parody from the real thing.
Sat Jun 05, 09:36:00 AM 2010 
 Matthew Blanchette said...
It certainly is... :-S
By the way, I recently bought The God Delusion at a bookstore, but I haven't read it yet; do any of you folks recommend it? Anybody here ready Mr. Dawkins' work?
Mon Jun 07, 02:43:00 PM 2010 
 Steve Wells said...
Yes, Matthew, I highly recommend the God Delusion. It is a delightful book, as are all of Dawkins' books.
Mon Jun 07, 08:57:00 PM 2010 
 Opus Croakus said...
Read it! It's an important book. Highly recommended!
Tue Jun 08, 10:10:00 AM 2010 
 Matthew Blanchette said...
Thanks, Steve; I'll try to do so while hiding it from my conservative Catholic mother... :-/
Tue Jun 08, 10:51:00 AM 2010 
 skanksta said...
June 11th, Group C, Rustenburg (@ altitude)
BRING IT ON ! ! !
Tue Jun 08, 07:43:00 PM 2010 
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 01 June 2010Blogging the Book of Mormon
First Nephi
1: And it came to pass exceedingly
2: The incredible journey begins
3: Oh my heck! We forgot the brass plates!
4: Better for one man to die than a whole nation dwindle in unbelief
5: After this manner of language did they speak
6: It mattereth not to me that I am particular
7: Oh Fetch! We forgot the fricken women!
8: Pointing the finger of scorn at Lehi's magic happy-fruit tree
9: Nephi names his plates
10: Lehi proves Jesus wrong by becoming the greatest prophet ever
11: A spirit shows Nephi all the shit his dad saw
12: Those who dwindle in unbelief will become dark, loathsome, filthy, idle, and abominable people
13: Satan founds the Catholic church, Columbus discovers America, and Joseph Smith fixes the Bible
14: There are only two churches - the church of God (the Mormons) and the church of the devil (everyone else)
15: Nephi explains his dad's magic tree (again)
16: A group marriage, magic brass ball, and broken steel bow
17: The Trip to Bountiful
18: Nephi discovers America
19: Zenos' Paradox
20-21: I will feed them with their own flesh; they shall be drunken with their own blood
22: Someday Catholics will all get drunk on their own blood

Second Nephi
1-3: A tale of four Josephs and loads of loin fruit
4-5: Because of their unbelief, the Lamanites are cursed, receive a skin of blackness
6: Someday God will force non-Mormons to eat their own flesh and get drunk on their own blood.
7-9: Tomorrow is a Latter Day
10: Wicked Jews, Blessed Gentiles, and a Completely Mormon America (with a Mormon president)
11-24: Padding Isaiah
25: Nephi speaks (somewhat) plainly about Jews, Jesus, and Joseph Smith
26: All those who have dwindled in unbelief shall not be forgotten.
27: The Book of Mormon prophesies itself
28-29: A Bible! A Bible! We don't need another Bible!
30: They shall be a white and delightsome people.
31-33: Nephi makes an end of his prophesying and proposes a simple test
Jacob
1-2: Polygamy, riches, and the Lord's delight in chaste women 3: Repent or "their skins will be whiter than yours." 4: On the difficulty of engraving words upon plates
5: A tale of two olive trees (and a new SAB category)
6-7: The sign of Sherem
Enos
You've done an awesome job, Enos!
Jarom
Jarom writes a few words about the Lamanites (who love murder and drink the blood of beasts)
Omni
The Book of Omni: The Nephites discover the Mulekites and Jaredites (who also sailed from Israel to America)
Words of Mormon
Words of Mormon - whispered by the Spirit of the Lord to Mormon Jr.
Mosiah
1: King Benjamin teaches his sons Reformed Egyptian
2-6: The King's Speech
7: A Nephite Family Reunion
8: A seer is greater than an prophet
9: Mosiah 9: The start of the Record of Zeniff
10: 22 years of peace
11: Wicked King Noah
12-13: Abinadi's Trial
14: A Complete Waste of a Golden Plate
15: O, how beautiful upon the mountains are their feet!
16-17: The end of Abinadi
18: Mormon, Mormon, Mormon, Mormon, Mormon!
19: Lamanite Attack!
20: Stolen Daughters
21: The Lord did not see fit to deliver them out of bondage
22: The escape of the Nephites
23: Nevertheless the Lord Seeth Fit to Chasten his People
24: Another daring escape
25: Mosiah 25: Speeches, Speeches and more Speeches
26: What to do with the unbelievers?
27 A visit from God's angel
28 Mosiah's sons go on a mission
29 The End of Mosiah
Alma
1 Priestcraft: Whoring and Babbling in the promised land
2 Amlici seeks to become king, and Alma puts a stop to it
3 God Set a Mark Upon Them
4 Alma Appoints Nephihah
5 Repent! (Or ye shall be cast into the fire)
6 Alma Goes to the City of Gideon (in the Valley of Gideon, There Having a City Built, Named for Gideon, Who Was Slain By the Hand of Nehor With the Sword)
7 Jesus is Coming
8 Alma, the Door-to-Door Salesman
9 Alma Speaks Again to the People of Ammonihah
10 The Evil Lawyers of Ammonihah
11 How much is a Senine of gold worth?
12 "This is the thing which I was about to explain..."
13 Melchizedek--None were greater
14 Alma and Amulek in Prison
15 The Healing of Zeezrom
Posted by Steve Wells at 6/01/2010 08:10:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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5 comments:
 Serena Norton said...
do you have 3rd Nephi?
Wed Aug 15, 02:44:00 PM 2012 
 Steve Wells said...
Well, yeah, sort of, anyway.
I have 3 Nephi at the SABoM, but I haven't blogged it yet. When I get to 3 Nephi on the blog, I'll be adding a lot of notes that I missed the first time around.
Wed Aug 15, 02:56:00 PM 2012 
 Unknown said...
I'm wondering, have you finished the Book of Mormon?
Mon Feb 11, 08:23:00 PM 2013 
 Steve Wells said...
Unknown,
No, we haven't finished blogging the Book of Mormon yet. (Philip is on Mosiah 20 now.)
Tue Feb 12, 12:55:00 PM 2013 
 bnaurich said...
Isee its easy for you to make fun of sacred things. Of course that shows your true ignorance of Mormons. As a Mormon I m most proud of the fact we appreciate all people and respect all beliefs. Let them worship how, where or what they may. Perhaps one day you will come to understand why.
Tue Jan 28, 10:36:00 PM 2014 
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