Saturday, April 26, 2014
DIU blog posts and comments
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
30 September 2009I want one of these T-shirts
But shoot, did I mess up in my addition?
My latest count is God: 2,301,426, Satan: 10.
Did I miss 90,000 of God's victims?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note: I found the missing victims. I removed the estimated 90,000 from the Midianite massacre since I'm only including numbers that are explicitly given in the biblical text. (See the note at the bottom of How man has God killed?
Posted by Steve Wells at 9/30/2009 04:20:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
4 comments:
I am the wise fool. said...
Nah, I don't think you missed them. It's just a difference of estimations on the several unnumbered mass slaughters.
This looks like a do-it-yourself shirt.
One black tee - $10
One tube of white fabric paint - $4
Reminding the world how horrifically violent the Christian God of Love is - Priceless
Thu Oct 01, 07:06:00 AM 2009
matt311 said...
There are some things money can't buy; for everything else, there's Atheism.
Thu Oct 01, 02:39:00 PM 2009
Steve Wells said...
Oh, I found the missing 90,000.
I removed the estimated 90,000 from the Midianite massacre since I'm only including numbers that are explicitly given in the biblical text. (See the note at the bottom of How man has God killed?
Thu Oct 01, 08:54:00 PM 2009
Tanner Stell said...
That's because Satan keeps people alive in hell to burn. God punished the people on Earth because of their sin:
“And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.” (Genesis 6:5, emphasis
Sun Dec 08, 01:13:00 PM 2013
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
28 September 2009Five kings killed and hung on trees
In his last killing, God got right in there and "fought for Israel." He "discomfited them ... and slew them with a great slaughter ... and chased them along the way." He "cast down great stones from heaven" and made the sun (and moon) stand still still so that Joshua could get his killing done in the broad daylight. God hadn't been so busy since he made all the stars in a single day.
But while God was busy chasing people, throwing stones, and stopping the sun and the moon from moving, the five kings got away.
But these five kings fled, and hid themselves in a cave at Makkedah. Joshua 10.16
When the Israelites found them, Joshua told them to roll some big stones over the mouth of the cave to trap them, and then chase and kill any of the Amorite soldiers that were trying to get away. He told them to "smite the hindmost of them" (kick their butts).
Pursue after your enemies, and smite the hindmost of them; suffer them not to enter into their cities: for the LORD your God hath delivered them into your hand. 10.19
So that's what they did.
And it came to pass, when Joshua and the children of Israel had made an end of slaying them with a very great slaughter, till they were consumed. 10.20
Then they opened up the cave and brought the five kings to Joshua. He and his captains then do something strange: they put their feet on the necks of the kings.
Joshua ... said unto the captains of the men of war which went with him, Come near, put your feet upon the necks of these kings. And they came near, and put their feet upon the necks of them. 10.24
While their doing this, Joshua says
Thus shall the LORD do to all your enemies against whom ye fight. 10.25
So I guess God does this to his enemies, too.
After Joshua withdraws his feet from the kings' necks, he does what he does best: he kills them.
Joshua smote them, and slew them. 10.26a
And hangs their dead bodies on trees until evening.
And hanged them on five trees: and they were hanging upon the trees until the evening. 10.26b
Then he took down their bodies, put them back in the cave that they were hiding in, and covered the entrance to the cave with a bunch of rocks. The rocks are still there to this day. No kidding.
They took them down off the trees, and cast them into the cave wherein they had been hid, and laid great stones in the cave's mouth, which remain until this very day. 10.27
(I put the death toll for the “very great slaughter” of Joshua 10.20 at 10,000.)
God's next killing: Joshua utterly destroyed all that breathed as the Lord God commanded
Posted by Steve Wells at 9/28/2009 04:50:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
7 comments:
matt311 said...
You think they'd have found this supposed cave containing the now-mummified bodies of these kings, considering it's there "until this very day"... unless, of course, the whole story is a violent fantasy. ;-)
Mon Sep 28, 06:25:00 PM 2009
prostituee said...
"Since "feet" is a biblical euphemism for genitals" where do you get this from? I'm relatively familiar with the bible (as in I've read the whole thing once, and parts of it repeatedly and grew up believing it) but I've never heard this before.
Mon Sep 28, 07:22:00 PM 2009
Steve Wells said...
prostiuee,
See the link to "The Old Testament and Sex" at John Mark Ministries. (http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/2853.htm)
I also put up a link in the post.
Mon Sep 28, 07:38:00 PM 2009
GeorgeRic said...
Back in 1883 Edwin Abbott wrote 'Flatland'. He uses it to give an understanding of contiguous geometric worlds, each existing at a higher level of dimensions. Today 'Techie Worlds' is available. Written for people with a mechanistic understanding of our world, it looks at ridiculous Christian teachings, such as Trinity, soul, resurrection and judgment. In so doing, 'Techie Worlds' follows science's lead in examining phenomena in the light of theory. Contiguous dimensional worlds provide a logical, mechanical explanation for those phenomena.
So an intelligent, intellectually honest and open-minded person has excellent reason to hold religious views. In the light of Pascal's wager, people would be foolish to deny Christian teaching or to hold Moslem or pagan beliefs.
'Techie Worlds, Visible & Invisible' is available from www.amazon.com.
GeorgeRic
Tue Sep 29, 12:13:00 PM 2009
busterggi said...
So GeorgeRic, which god do you believe in?
All of them are jealous so you'd better pick the right one or Pascal's wager has done you zero good.
Tue Sep 29, 02:56:00 PM 2009
myminddroppings said...
Not only is the bible full of bloodlust, it makes it seem heroic!!
What surprises me is how so-called intellectuals like Karen Armstrong can simply ignore all this sanctified mayhem and bigotry and claim that Religions are full of calls for compassion toward one another?
I recently bogged about the article that Lisa Miller wrote in Newsweek and somehow these dimwits simply ignore the widespread sanctified violence.
What gives?
Tue Sep 29, 03:03:00 PM 2009
I am the wise fool. said...
Hey Steve, I love the interpretation of "smite the hindmost of them" as kicking their butts.
On the off chance that that is not just well-deserved satire, I'll add my interpretation that it instead means that God let the Israelites slay those who could not run away fast enough. They would have been lagging behind the herd, like sickly zebras culled lions.
Who knew that God was a proponent of Natural Selection?
Thu Oct 01, 06:59:00 AM 2009
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
22 September 2009God makes the sun stand still so that Joshua can get his killing done before dark
Joshua and the Israelites have been slaughtering or enslaving the people from every city that they came across. They killed everyone in Jericho and Ai and enslaved the people of Gibeon (Joshua 9.21-27). So the neighboring cities were getting kind of nervous.
Five kings from these cities (the Amorite coalition) decided to attack the Israelites. Then God gets involved.
God tells Joshua not to worry; he has given the Amorites into Joshua's hand, and they would just run away when they were attacked.
The LORD said unto Joshua, Fear them not: for I have delivered them into thine hand; there shall not a man of them stand before thee. Joshua 10.8
So Joshua attacked, but it was God who did most of the dirty work. He “discomfited them” and even “chased them along the way.”
The LORD discomfited them before Israel, and slew them with a great slaughter at Gibeon, and chased them along the way. 10.10
But God was just getting started. He threw down from heaven giant hailstones and killed even more Amorite soldiers than the Israelite army.
The LORD cast down great stones from heaven upon them unto Azekah, and they died: they were more which died with hailstones than they whom the children of Israel slew with the sword. 10.11
Then God made the sun and moon stop moving for 24 hours so that Joshua would have plenty of daylight to finish killing off the Amorites. (It was this verse, among others, that got Galileo in so much trouble. If God stopped the sun from moving, then the sun moves around the earth.)
Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites ... Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon. And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. ... So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day. 10.12-13
So in this killing, God got directly involved. He slaughtered people, "chased them along the way," cast down huge hailstones from heaven, and, at Joshua's request, he stopped the sun from moving for 24 hours. You just can't ask much more from a God than that.
Here's how the Bible puts it.
There was no day like that before it or after it, that the LORD hearkened unto the voice of a man: for the LORD fought for Israel. 10.14
(Since the Amorite coalition consisted of 5 cities, I put the number killed at 5000. 1000 for each city.)
God's next killing: Five kings killed and hung on trees
Posted by Steve Wells at 9/22/2009 02:56:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
5 comments:
Tony said...
Are you sure this event wasn't pre-deluvian? A stationary sun would cause a helluva tide. On a flat earth this might trigger a global flood.
I suspect this is the most (intentionally) ignorant thing I've ever written.
Tue Sep 22, 07:36:00 PM 2009
matt311 said...
It sure is a silly story, though.
Tue Sep 22, 11:40:00 PM 2009
busterggi said...
One more thing that should have been noticed worldwide but wasn't.
Believers are just sooooo stoopit.
Wed Sep 23, 07:01:00 PM 2009
Misty said...
Do people really, literally believe that this actually and truly happened in the physical world?
Thu Sep 24, 01:54:00 PM 2009
Ian G. said...
C'mon, Tony, if God can make the moon and sun stop, he can also keep the tides from rising too!
/sarcasm
Fri Sep 25, 08:13:00 PM 2009
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
18 September 2009Gay people can (and should) quote the Bible too
If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her ... and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her; And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him ... But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die. Deuteronomy 22:13-21
Posted by Steve Wells at 9/18/2009 11:52:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
8 comments:
Baconsbud said...
Odd how they never seem to remember these types of verses when they are making their claims.
Fri Sep 18, 02:33:00 PM 2009
twillight said...
I thought here will be the verses about David&Johnathan, the centurion's servant (son?), and "love" your neighbour, God's male partner etc. The verses that do support gay relations.
Maybe it'd worth a later entry for you Steve?
Fri Sep 18, 02:57:00 PM 2009
Misty said...
God also likes for some people to marry those who aren't virgins. Like in Hosea.
1:2 The beginning of the word of the LORD by Hosea. And the LORD said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the LORD.
He also tells this happy couple to name their kids "not my people" and "not loved." What a swell God, huh? Not only does he arbitrarily enforce his own horrid rules, he helps his people form loving families as well! Truly, marriage is a sacred institution that has been ordained by this God, and only certain people should have access to it. That is made obvious by these Bible passages.
Fri Sep 18, 03:22:00 PM 2009
busterggi said...
Well according to the bible Yahweh & Jesus were never married or even experience sexual desire - how can anyone expect meaningful advice from a source like that?
Sat Sep 19, 07:23:00 AM 2009
Tony said...
I think Misty's point is that you can use the bible to justify anything you like. I agree with her wholeheartedly (she's remarkably wise for a woman).
I believe in the inferiority of women, abortion, slavery, circumcision and genocide. I'm dead against crayfish, divorce (under any circumstances), lepers and physicians.
Sat Sep 19, 05:54:00 PM 2009
Ian G. said...
busterggi,
I dunno, if you read some of those verses about the "disciple Jesus loved" from the Gospel of John a certain way, it certainly looks like Jesus had sexual desires....just not heterosexual ones.
Sat Sep 19, 09:17:00 PM 2009
matt311 said...
This is probably one of the smartest uses of the Bible I've ever seen; go, gay people! :-)
Sun Sep 20, 04:37:00 PM 2009
busterggi said...
I'd really enjoy seeing gay rights supporters demonstrating outside the offices of Sanford, Ensign, Vitter & all the other Religious Reichers carrying signs quoting the bible about stoning adulterers to death. I'd participate if possible.
Mon Sep 21, 05:51:00 PM 2009
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
16 September 2009The Ai Massacre
After stoning and burning to death Achan and his family, Joshua was back in business.
God told Joshua to do unto Ai as they did unto Jericho, except that this time the Israelites could keep some of the loot for themselves (instead of giving it all to him).
Thou shalt do to Ai and her king as thou didst unto Jericho and her king: only the spoil thereof, and the cattle thereof, shall ye take for a prey unto yourselves. Joshua 8.2
So that's what they did.
They killed the soldiers,
Joshua and all Israel … slew the men of Ai ... so that they let none of them remain or escape. 8.21-22
burned the city,
Joshua burnt Ai, and made it an heap for ever. 8.28
murdered all the women and children,
Joshua drew not his hand back, wherewith he stretched out the spear, until he had utterly destroyed all the inhabitants of Ai. 8.26
killed the King of Ai, and hung his dead body on a tree.
The king of Ai he hanged on a tree until eventide. 8.29
Just like God told them to do.
And, finally, after they were done killing all the people, Joshua killed some animals as a "peace offering" to his bloody God of war.
Then Joshua built an altar unto the LORD ... and ... offered thereon burnt offerings unto the LORD, and sacrificed peace offerings. 8:30-31
One thing I really like about this story (What's not to like?) is that this time I don't have to guess the number of victims. The Bible tells us how many were killed: 12,000.
And … all that fell that day, both of men and women, were twelve thousand. 8.25
God's next killing: God stops the sun so Joshua can get his killing done in the daylight
Posted by Steve Wells at 9/16/2009 10:23:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
5 comments:
Baconsbud said...
Wow and here I thought maybe he would be merciful with the women and children this time. I guess it would have been worse for those that he has slaughtered if they had lived.
Wed Sep 16, 01:04:00 PM 2009
busterggi said...
According to the OT Yahweh was really into micromanagement.
Nowadays he doesn't show up at all & his kid only appears on toast and Cheetos.
I'm not gonna worship such a slacker.
Wed Sep 16, 04:37:00 PM 2009
matt311 said...
Wow... guess Yaweh doesn't really like one-syllable towns that much.
Thu Sep 17, 12:26:00 AM 2009
v_quixotic said...
I heard a christian apologist say that the real victims of these massacres were the poor Israeli soldiers who had to carry out these orders on god's behalf...[sigh]
Thu Sep 17, 01:21:00 PM 2009
Ian G. said...
v_quixotic,
Ah, I see, so to them God isn't like Saddam Hussein or Kim Jong-Il, he's more like Douglas Haig or Robert Nivelle.
Talk about damning with faint praise.
Thu Sep 17, 10:04:00 PM 2009
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
12 September 2009Achan and his family are stoned and burned to death
This is one of those bible stories that most believers don't really believe in, if they know it exists, that is. It's simply not possible to believe this story and also believe that the God of the Bible is anything other than evil.
The story begins with Joshua sending spies to the land of Ai. The spies return saying Ai would be easy to conquer, requiring only a few thousand men.
Joshua sent men from Jericho to Ai … and spake unto them, saying, Go up and view the country. And the men went up and viewed Ai. And they returned to Joshua, and said …let about two or three thousand men go up and smite Ai … for they are but few. Joshua 7.2-3
So Joshua sent 3,000 soldiers, but they were defeated by the men of Ai, who killed about 36 of them.
So there went up thither of the people about three thousand men: and they fled before the men of Ai. And the men of Ai smote of them about thirty and six men. 7.4-5
When Joshua heard what had happened, he tore his clothes, fell on his face, and put dirt on his head, thereby proving that he was a real Bible character.
Joshua rent his clothes, and fell to the earth upon his face before the ark of the LORD until the eventide, he and the elders of Israel, and put dust upon their heads. 7.6
He then asked God why they were defeated.
Joshua said, Alas, O LORD God, wherefore hast thou at all brought this people over Jordan, to deliver us into the hand of the Amorites, to destroy us? 7.7
God told Joshua to get up off his face.
The LORD said unto Joshua, Get thee up; wherefore liest thou thus upon thy face? 7.10
And then God said that the Israelites were defeated by Ai because someone took an accursed thing during the Jericho Massacre.
Israel hath sinned … for they have even taken of the accursed thing … and they have put it even among their own stuff. Therefore the children of Israel could not stand before their enemies, but turned their backs before their enemies, because they were accursed: neither will I be with you any more, except ye destroy the accursed from among you. 7.11-12
But God told Joshua what he needed to do to get back to successful genocide: burn to death the man with the accursed thing, along with his family.
He that is taken with the accursed thing shall be burnt with fire, he and all that he hath. 7.15
God even pointed out the guy. His name was Achan.
In the morning therefore ye shall be brought according to your tribes: and it shall be, that the tribe which the LORD taketh shall come according to the families thereof; and the family which the LORD shall take shall come by households; and the household which the LORD shall take shall come man by man. … So Joshua rose up early in the morning, and brought Israel by their tribes; and the tribe of Judah was taken: And he brought the family of Judah; and he took the family of the Zarhites: and he brought the family of the Zarhites man by man; and Zabdi was taken: And he brought his household man by man; and Achan, the son of Carmi, the son of Zabdi, the son of Zerah, of the tribe of Judah, was taken. 7.14-18
So Joshua ordered Achan to confess.
Joshua said unto Achan … make confession unto him; and tell me now what thou hast done; hide it not from me. 7.19
And he did.
Achan answered Joshua, and said, Indeed I have sinned against the LORD God of Israel, and thus and thus have I done: When I saw among the spoils a goodly Babylonish garment, and two hundred shekels of silver, and a wedge of gold of fifty shekels weight, then I coveted them, and took them; and, behold, they are hid in the earth in the midst of my tent, and the silver under it. 7.20-21
He then rounded up Achan, his family, his livestock, and all their possessions. "And all Israel stoned them with stones and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones." And that made God less angry.
And Joshua …took Achan … and his sons, and his daughters, and his oxen, and his asses, and his sheep … And Joshua said, Why hast thou troubled us? the LORD shall trouble thee this day. And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones. … So the LORD turned from the fierceness of his anger. 7.24-26
Since Achan’s sons and daughters were stoned and burned along with him, there must have been at least 5 victims here. (No mention is made of his wife.)
God's next killing: The Ai massacre
Posted by Steve Wells at 9/12/2009 10:19:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
9 comments:
busterggi said...
Geez, Yahweh can't make up his mind can he?
First he tells the Israelites to loot cities, then he punishes them when they do.
Sun Sep 13, 06:17:00 AM 2009
Doomsday said...
"And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones."
Why do I find this incredibly funny?
Sun Sep 13, 06:59:00 AM 2009
v_quixotic said...
I'm curious,
Is this more rhetoric pointed at specific groups of pre-exilic Israelites, like those that refused to recognize the centrality of the Jerusalem temple, the exclusive hegemony of the Levitical priests, and the transcendence of Yahweh?
Mon Sep 14, 04:58:00 AM 2009
Steve Wells said...
v_quixotic,
Yes, I think that's what it was, but we'd have to ask danielo to know for sure.
The rest of us are just too loaded with those reductive and presentistic fallacies to appreciate the subtleties of the socio-religious history of the ancient Near East.
Mon Sep 14, 07:46:00 AM 2009
Ian G. said...
Just out of curiosity, did God specifically tell the men in Joshua's army NOT to loot certain things, or is this just another case of God being pissed off after the fact and deciding (like all good murderous tyrants) to take it out on someone who doesn't really deserve it?
Mon Sep 14, 12:54:00 PM 2009
Steve Wells said...
Ian,
Yeah, God was pretty clear about that. Everything in Jericho was accursed and they weren't to touch any accused thing or they and all Israel would be accursed too. (Joshua 6:17-18)
Except for the gold, brass, and iron, that is. They were all consecrated to God and were to go into his treasury.
Achan kept some of the cool stuff he found (both accursed and consecrated) and kept it for himself. So God had to have him and his family stoned and burned to death. What else could he do?
If you let somebody take one accursed thing, before you know it somebody else will take two. I think you can see where this would all end.
Mon Sep 14, 01:08:00 PM 2009
Fred said...
God's got nothing on the Catholic Church, with the number of people they killed in their 1500 years of terror with the Inqusitions and Crusades.
How anyone could build their life around a religion that has converted people by using fear is beyond me.
Mon Sep 21, 10:59:00 PM 2009
Tony Cook said...
adjctethe book of joshua is a history of the ancient israelites during the time they took possession of caanan, the promised land. the author, perhaps joshua, would have viewed god as a fearsome being with a nature not unlike what he, the author, would have been like had he had the same role and power. the reporting of god’s response to achan's misdeed is coloured by how joshua (or whoever) would himself have reacted. such a response, extreme by today's standards, was pretty much what the man in the street would have expected back then. certainly what the author expected. is this an ear-witness account of the out-loud words joshua heard god speak? or is it the impression joshua had in his heart of what god wanted to happen? if the latter, was the brutal outcome in Joshua 7:25 a representation of what was in god's heart or what was in the heart of joshua, and everyone else present at the time, including achan, and his wife and perhaps even his kids.
given what we see of god's nature later on in the bible, what jesus reveals of god, i have trouble going along with what you’ve read into this passage. it seems more likely to me that the surface picture being presented here of god tells more about the expectations of the people of the time than the nature of god. the distorted view of god held by the hebrews, israelites, jews and their successors down through history, is a recurring theme in the bible. take for example the way jesus repeatedly seeks to correct the attitudes of the pharisees and church officials in the gospels.
Incidentally, the fact that such, at first glance, unfavourable accounts as the achan story appear in the books of the old testament, adds to rather than detracts from their authenticity, don’t you think?
Sun Nov 25, 02:48:00 PM 2012
Mickadoo said...
Well, you've got to remember the difference between the old and new testament here. In the old testament, the punishment for sin is death. That is how the world was created. Humans are only good because God gave them that goodness. If He were to let sin live, He would cease to be a just God. If He were to let sin into heaven, it would cease to be holy. God hates sin...if He didn't, we'd have an even bigger problem. What's happening here with Achan is that old testament rule. Before Jesus came and died and people could wear his innocence, we were judged by the 10 commandments and by God's words. The OT is there to remind us why we need a savior...we can't NOT sin. But remember, this was accepted justice back then. We didn't have painless drugs to administer the death sentence like we do today. That was a serious crime that could have brought down Israel's defeat, killed 36 men, and disgraced the God who created them. Justice in the OT had to be served because God promised it would be if they disobeyed Him. Now, though, we can rejoice that God made a plan since the beginning to help us get away from getting what our sin deserves because Jesus took it for us...He became the once-for-all-death to cover our sins. Also try to remember that God is the one that made our "logical thinking"....you can't judge His actions with a slice of His own pie. He sees more and He saw their hearts. He would not kill innocence. Do you really think that our God-given ideas about justice are somehow superior to the same God?
Thu Aug 01, 01:18:00 PM 2013
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
08 September 2009The Jericho Massacre
Jericho is one of God's more famous killings. And believers seem to like it a lot. They sing songs about it, and tell their children about it.
Here's how it goes.
God tells Joshua that he has given the city of Jericho into his hands and that he and his men should march around the city every day for six days with seven priests marching before the ark blowing seven trumpets made of rams' horns.
The LORD said unto Joshua, See, I have given into thine hand Jericho, and the king thereof, and the mighty men of valour. And ye shall compass the city, all ye men of war, and go round about the city once. Thus shalt thou do six days. And seven priests shall bear before the ark seven trumpets of rams' horns. Joshua 6.2-4a
On the seventh day the seven priests will march around seven times blowing their seven trumpets. They'll make a long blast, everyone will yell, and the walls will fall down.
The seventh day ye shall compass the city seven times, and the priests shall blow with the trumpets. And it shall come to pass, that when they make a long blast with the ram's horn, and when ye hear the sound of the trumpet, all the people shall shout with a great shout; and the wall of the city shall fall down flat. Joshua 6.4b-5
So the trumpets sounded and the people yelled and the walls came tumbling down.
On the seventh day, that … they compassed the city seven times. And … at the seventh time, when the priests blew with the trumpets, Joshua said unto the people, Shout; for the LORD hath given you the city. … So the people shouted when the priests blew with the trumpets: and … the wall fell down flat. Joshua 6.15-20
Then Joshua told the soldiers to kill everyone in the city as an offering to God, except for the prostitute, Rahab, and her family. But all the silver, gold, bronze, and iron belonged to God alone.
The city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent. And ye, in any wise keep yourselves from the accursed thing, lest ye make yourselves accursed, when ye take of the accursed thing, and make the camp of Israel a curse, and trouble it. But all the silver, and gold, and vessels of brass and iron, are consecrated unto the LORD: they shall come into the treasury of the LORD. Joshua 6.17-19
So the soldiers went into the city and killed everything in it. Men, women, young, old, cattle, sheep, and donkeys. But they spared Rahab and her family.
They utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword. … And Joshua saved Rahab the harlot alive, and her father's household, and all that she had. Joshua 6.21-25
(Rahab and her family were spared because she protected the Israelite spies by lying about their whereabouts. I don't know how they survived when the wall fell down, since her house was on the wall. I guess it was a miracle or something.)
Then they burned everything in the city, except for the gold, silver, iron, and bronze, which they put into God's treasury.
They burnt the city with fire, and all that was therein: only the silver, and the gold, and the vessels of brass and of iron, they put into the treasury of the house of the LORD. Joshua 6.24
After destroying Jericho, Joshua said that whoever rebuilt the city would be cursed by God and be forced to sacrifice his oldest and youngest sons.
Joshua adjured them at that time, saying, Cursed be the man before the LORD, that riseth up and buildeth this city Jericho: he shall lay the foundation thereof in his firstborn, and in his youngest son shall he set up the gates of it. Joshua 6.26
(According to 1 Kings 16:34, this prophecy was fulfilled when Hiel rebuilt Jericho. God made him lay the foundation with the body of his oldest son and set up the gates with his youngest son's body "according to the word of the Lord.")
Estimated number killed: 1000.
God's next killing: Achan and his family are stoned and burned to death
Posted by Steve Wells at 9/08/2009 07:49:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
13 comments:
Baconsbud said...
It is amazing how important gold, silver and iron so important to such a powerful being. Oops I forgot it wasn't actually for some god but so that the holy men could live as royalty.
Tue Sep 08, 03:29:00 PM 2009
Ian G. said...
Yes, it's such an inspiring story that it inspired the Crusaders who besieged Jerusalem in 1099. Then when the city fell, they went on a big massacre too.
Tue Sep 08, 03:34:00 PM 2009
busterggi said...
Geneocide & greed, the two hallmarks of a great god.
Tue Sep 08, 04:42:00 PM 2009
twillight said...
Maybe you could add the part from much later where that guy do kills his son and rebuilds Jericho? W/o that I fell this story unended.
Tue Sep 08, 11:18:00 PM 2009
v_quixotic said...
I'm curious (and lazy)... is there any reason given why Rahab the prostitute and her family were spared?
Thu Sep 10, 12:06:00 AM 2009
Steve Wells said...
v_quixotic,
Yeah, Rahab and her family were spared because she protected the Israelite spies by lying about their whereabouts. (Joshua 2:1-4)
Thu Sep 10, 07:53:00 AM 2009
claartje said...
Awww you forgot to mention how they went into the floating house to get Rahab out... the house that was on the wall that had just fallen down remember ;)
Anyways, I love your blog! I can't believe I read the bible 3 or 4 times as a child with my parents, and I never realized I was reading about all these killings... amazing how the mind of children can be polluted! I'm just glad I snapped out of it!
Thu Sep 10, 02:06:00 PM 2009
Steve Wells said...
Thanks claartje for pointing that out. I don't know how Rahab and her family survived when the wall fell, but I guess God worked it all out somehow.
I've added a note about it in the post and the SAB.
Mon Sep 21, 10:19:00 AM 2009
James said...
you have no Biblical or historical reference to make these ignorant statements. What was done at Jericho was the same at Sodom and Ghomora and Noah"s flood. God was continuing to guard the blood line of David to Jesus against the spirit of the fallen ones who continued to turn man into an abomination to God and prevent Jesus Birth. Did a thousand morally bankrupt wretches whose blood was tainted with evil die so that Jesus could come and save the world? Yes and it was an awesome trade. They had become like animals with no redemption. It is not too late for you yet, but time is short, seek Him.
Thu Feb 10, 01:40:00 PM 2011
Baconsbud said...
James which of the gospel blood lines was he protecting? You do know there are two completely different ones right? You say they became like animals with no chance of redemption but doesn't the bible state all can be forgiven? I guess either you are full of crap or the bible lies. Which is it?
Thu Feb 10, 02:00:00 PM 2011
streona said...
Obviously the 10 Commandments came with quite a bit of small print. Especially the one about not killing people(unless god tells you to).
But how do I tell which of the vices in my head is the right one?
Mon Nov 11, 06:29:00 AM 2013
bill bannon said...
Actually the herem were from God and were a last resort of God. Read Genesis 15:16 and the 12th chapter of Wisdom in a Catholic Bible. Those two put together will show you that the Canaanites were sacrificing their children to Baal etc. for 400 years. God first punished them lightly that they might repent (Wisdom 12:10) so God put up with their child sacrifice for over four hundred years prior to ordering their massacre. Christ announces the worst massacre to occur after His death because Jerusalem did not know the hour of its Visitation and Christ noted their children would be killed within them... and Tacitus gives the dead as 600,000 and Josephus gives 1.1 million in 70 AD when the Romans are used by God as His axe.
Why the children within them? Because God punishes in the OT down to the third and fourth generation of the fathers who hate Him. God punishes all men in case you haven't noticed...with death. Not one person here escapes that. The pre borns were not punished spiritually but physically and probably went straight to Heaven...just as David's baby by Bathsheba was killed by God in punishment for David's sin and everyone here dies because of Adam's sin.
Mon Nov 25, 06:21:00 PM 2013
Tony Johnston said...
Bill Bannon....You are a fucking sick Bastard.
I would love to meet you somewhere and tell it to your face.
My name is Tony Johnston.
tonycjohnston@grandecom.net.
Tue Dec 03, 03:49:00 PM 2013
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
04 September 2009God's Killings in Deuteronomy
Here's a summary of God's killings in Deuteronomy. Killing Event Verse Estimated number killed Cumulative total
1 God slowly kills the Israelite army Deuteronomy 2:14-17 500,000 500,000
2 God kills the Zamzummim in the land of the giants 2:22-23 10,000 510,000
3 God hardened King Sihon's heart in order to kill all his people 2:26-28 3,000 513,000
4 God helps kill all the men, women, and children in 60 cities 3:3-6 60,000 573,000
But God not only killed in Deuteronomy; he commanded everyone else to kill, too.
Here are just some of the people God wants you to kill.
Prophets, dreamers, and people who can do signs and wonders Deuteronomy 13:1-5
Family and friends if they believe in the wrong god 13:6-10
Everyone in every city that has at least one person who believes in the wrong god 13:12-17
Anyone who has religions beliefs that are different than yours 17:2-7
People who won't listen to a priest or a judge. 17:12-13
All false prophets and false witnesses 18:20-22, 19:18-19
Stubborn and rebellious sons 21:18-21
Rape victims who don't cry out loud enough 22:23-24
Any Amalekites you happen to run across 25:19
And if you refuse to kill any of these people (or to do any of the other things God told you to do in Deuteronomy), then God will kill you after he forces you to eat your own children. (God wrote a whole chapter about this. See Deuteronomy 28:16-68 for the gory details.)
Posted by Steve Wells at 9/04/2009 07:45:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
3 comments:
Baconsbud said...
I am always amazed that christians say their religion is all about love and based on the bible.
Fri Sep 04, 02:24:00 PM 2009
busterggi said...
That's because they don't actually read the bible, they just listen to others read selected passages.
Tue Sep 08, 04:43:00 PM 2009
Vinícius said...
@bugsterggi
I'm an active church member and believer, but I'm forced to admit that you're right when you say "they don't actually read the bible".
Personally, I believe that reading the whole Bible alone, without doctrinal aid or justifications from anyone else, will most likely give the reader more negative than positive feelings (thinking about the Old Testament, specially).
I consider myself an open-minded student of religion's history. I have read the whole Bible, the Book of Mormon (more than ten times as it's smaller), excerpts from Al Quran and I've read a lot about related history and science topics, but I usually stick to the Sermon of the Mount or Proverbs when I open the scriptures in need of spiritual aid. :P
I wonder why has God let it be this way.
Sun Sep 13, 07:01:00 AM 2009
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
30 October 2009The Conservative Bible Project needs your help!
Poor Andy is having a rough time re-writing the Bible. Most of the really cool changes have been undone, and hardly anyone is contributing anymore.
And they are missing thousands of opportunities to fix stuff for God.
Take Genesis 19:8 for example. Here is how the Conservative Bible "translates" it.
Look, I have two virgin daughters, and I'll give them to you and you can do whatever you want to them if you just promise me you'll leave these men alone. They're my guests and I'm honor-bound to protect them. Genesis 19:8
And here is 2 Peter 2:4-8.
God ... delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with [their] unlawful deeds;) 2 Peter 2:4-8
As you can see, the second passage hasn't been translated yet. And that's where you can help.
Liberals and atheists love these verses because they show God to be a total jerk. Lot offered his daughters to a crowd of angel rapers, yet he is "just" and "righteous" to God. Someone needs to fix that.
There are several ways this could be done. Genesis 19:8 could be changed to say something that a decent father might say. Something like this:
Look, I have two virgin angels and I'll give them to you and you can do whatever you want to them if you will leave my family alone. For I love my family and I'm honor-bound to protect them. (The angels can probably take care of themselves.) Genesis 19:8
Now that would be just and righteous!
Or you could just remove the "just" and "righteous" stuff about Lot in 2 Peter 2:7-8 like Andy did with "Father forgive them for they know not what they do" and "Whoever is without sin cast the first stone."
Either of these (or both) would be a pretty good fix, but I'm sure you can think of others. When something is this fucked up, anything is an improvement.
Of course we would still have to deal with the rest of the (so far untranslated) story in Genesis 19.
As you may know, Andy has removed wine from the Bible. So this is how the story will have to read in the Conservative Bible.
And Lot went to a cave with his two daughters. And his older daughter said to the younger, "Our father is old and there is no other man around. Let's give him some grape juice and fuck him." So they did that. Lot fucked his older daughter on the first night, and the younger one on the next. Thus were both the daughters of Lot impregnated by their father. Genesis 19:30-36
So now Lot won't even have the excuse of being drunk! How just and righteous is that?
Of course this is just one of the thousands of problems that need fixing at the CBP. So get over there, sign up, and help them out!
One note of caution, though. The CBP is a lot like the Boy Scouts: not just any kid can join. You'll need to sound sufficiently conservative (and batshit crazy) to win Andy's blessing. So watch a bit of Fox News before you go so you'll know how to talk when you get there. And then go to work. Andy needs your help!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
19 November 2009 note: Andy and friends have finished the rest of Genesis 19. Here's how they deal with Lot and his daughters.
So they decided that the "just and righteous" Lot (2 Peter 2:7-8) got drunk (with wine, not grape juice) and was "intimate" with his daughters.
Now, that's messed up. Someone ought to go fix it!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
20 November 2009: Now they're stuck on Exodus 4:24: "And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him [Moses], and sought to kill him."
Here is the translator's plea for help: "I'm having a bit of trouble with Exodus, specifically, the end of chapter 4 - I've read a few different translations of this part and I'm still not quite sure I grasp what's going on."
Yeah, that's a tough one. Why would a conservative guy like God try to kill Moses?
Posted by Steve Wells at 10/30/2009 12:15:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
5 comments:
twillight said...
Grapejuice????
In the original version, face it, at least had some excuse to Lot as he was out of consciousness. Now this story is even worse, as Lot was completly sane.
But to be fair and balanced here is a suggestion for Andy: ""Let's give him some grape juice and fuck him." So they did that, and by that Satan entered to Lot, so he fucked his older daughter..."
Fri Oct 30, 01:23:00 PM 2009
twillight said...
Ah, it is too late to merge this version into the previous post of mine: "a liberal spirit, sent by Satan entered to Lot"
Fri Oct 30, 01:30:00 PM 2009
Steve Wells said...
Yeah, but it's not too late to do it at Andy's place.
I wouldn't be surprised if Andy actually liked that change!
Fri Oct 30, 01:33:00 PM 2009
matt311 said...
Damn, I love your alterations. :-D
I'd sign up for Conservapedia, but I'm afraid I'd be too tempted to change the crowd of angel rapers into a Tea Party convention.
Sat Oct 31, 11:35:00 AM 2009
Tony said...
I hate to state the obvious but adding a Skeptic's Wiki Bible to the Skeptic's Annotated Bible is a reasonable idea. Show how a worshippable bible could have been written. We wouldn't have to worry about going to hell or whatever, unlike Schlafly. God might smite us but, then again, she'd come out looking a lot more reasonable than in the current version. Get rid of all the incest and genocide etc.
Sat Oct 31, 06:49:00 PM 2009
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
29 October 2009A city is massacred and 1000 burn to death because of God's evil spirit
After Gideon died, it was time for his sons to take over. And he had lots of them.
Gideon had threescore and ten sons of his body begotten: for he had many wives. And his concubine that was in Shechem, she also bare him a son, whose name he called Abimelech. Judges 8:30-31
Which was a problem since only one son could succeed him. Luckily, Abimelech came up with a creative solution. He killed all of his 70 brothers on one stone.
Abimelech ... went unto his father's house at Ophrah, and slew his brethren the sons of Jerubbaal, being threescore and ten persons, upon one stone. Judges 9:4-5
Well, all except one, anyway. Jotham, Gideon's youngest son, got away.
So the two remaining sons, Abimelech and Jotham, schemed against each other for control of Israel, with Abimelech winning out, becoming Israel's first king.
Then God decided to get involved by sending an evil spirit.
God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech: That the cruelty done to the threescore and ten sons of Jerubbaal might come, and their blood be laid upon Abimelech their brother, which slew them; and upon the men of Shechem, which aided him in the killing of his brethren. Judges 9:23-24
(Now you might think it strange that an evil spirit would be sent by God. But if so, you haven't been reading your Bible enough. The Bible is clear about evil spirits: they are either sent directly by God or their origin is unknown. The Bible never attributes evil spirits to Satan.)
Things get complicated after God's evil spirit arrives. But the short story is that Shechem revolts against Abimelech and Abimelech massacres everyone in Shechem, except for 1000 that escape to a tower.(See the Brick Testament story for the details.)
When Abimelech found about about the people in the tower, he set it on fire. While the tower was burning, a woman dropped a millstone and it landed on Abimelech's head, crushing his skull. Abimelech saw that it was a woman, so he told a soldier to kill him since he didn't want it said that he was killed by a woman. (In the Bible, there's nothing worse that being killed by a woman.)
So with the help of God's evil spirit, everything worked out according to God's plan.
Thus God rendered the wickedness of Abimelech, which he did unto his father, in slaying his seventy brethren: And all the evil of the men of Shechem did God render upon their heads: and upon them came the curse of Jotham. Judges 9:56-57
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note: I missed this one up to now, so I'm going to have to revise the list. I estimated a total of 2001: 1000 in the burning tower, 1000 in the Shechem massacre, and Abimelech (who wasn't killed by a woman). I know the 2001 value is silly and arbitrary in its precision, but any attempt to put a number on God's killings will run into the same problem.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
God's next killing: The Ammonite massacre
Posted by Steve Wells at 10/29/2009 10:26:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
5 comments:
Marcus said...
"So with the help of God's evil spirit, everything worked out according to God's plan."
Ah... Don't you just love a happy ending?
Thu Oct 29, 12:54:00 PM 2009
adnandakingkhalil said...
When you added all the killings in this episode did you add the kind act of Abimelech towards his 70 brothers?
Also, verse 56 seems to suggest this was Abimelech's own doing. Well except for what (bashfully) mentions in verse 57 about the men of Shechem.
Thu Oct 29, 01:35:00 PM 2009
Steve Wells said...
adn,
No, I didn't blame Abimelech's murder of his 69 brothers on God. I didn't see anything in the text to implicate God on that one.
But I gave full credit to God and his evil spirit for the Shechem massacre and the falling millstone.
Thu Oct 29, 01:48:00 PM 2009
adnandakingkhalil said...
Okay thanks for clarifying Steve.
From a secular point of view, I'm bewildered as to what the author/s of the book of judges were trying to get across when they concocted this book. It just seems to be countless killings one after another.
The same old stories but the only thing that seems to change is the name.
Thu Oct 29, 01:59:00 PM 2009
3D said...
Blogger adnandakingkhalil said...
From a secular point of view, I'm bewildered as to what the author/s of the book of judges were trying to get across when they concocted this book. It just seems to be countless killings one after another.
The overall moral seems to be "don't fuck with God or He will kill you."
It is quite a bit of overkill though. It gets boring after the third or fourth identical mass slaughter, and then you're not even a quarter of the way through.
Fri Oct 30, 12:47:00 PM 2009
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
27 October 2009Collision: Are Douglas Wilson's beliefs good for the world?
A couple years ago I mentioned the online debate between Douglas Wilson and Christopher Hitchens. Since then, they've been traveling around debating each other all across the country. And now now they're making a movie about it.
The movie is named Collision and it's set for release today, October 27.
In the online debate, Wilson evaded the topic (which was supposed to be "Is Christianity good for the world?") while forcing Hitchens to explain how an atheist determines what is good. So Hitchens was kept off balance trying to defend his own ethical system, rather than reveal the harm caused by the Bible and Christian belief. I expect Wilson to do the same in the movie version, which is why I am reposting his views here. It's only necessary to list Douglas Wilson's beliefs; once that is done, anyone with any morals will immediately conclude that such views are not good for the world.
Note: Since his views about slavery were made public several years ago in his (and my) hometown of Moscow, Idaho, Wilson has been quiet about his beliefs. I am not aware of any recent statements from him regarding the beliefs that are outlined below. All of the quoted articles are no longer available at the Credenda website. I was, however, able to restore the broken links through the marvel of the wayback machine.
Here is a list of the views of Douglas Wilson and his followers. (As found, but since removed, from the the Credenda Agenda website):
On Slavery
Wilson co-authored a pamphlet on slavery with the title, Southern Slavery as it was. (You can read it here.) Its purpose was to defend slavery as it existed in the pre-Civil War South and to defend the Biblical institution of slavery. When news of the booklet hit Moscow, Idaho in 2003, all hell broke loose. Wilson has since tried to hide his views on slavery through equivocation and denial.
Wilson brags in the article below that he has "said (out loud) that a godly man could have been a slave owner." He doesn't say that out loud anymore.
[N]othing is clearer – the New Testament opposes anything like the abolitionism of our country prior to the War Between the States. The New Testament contains many instructions for Christian slave owners, and requires a respectful submissive demeanor for Christian slaves. See, for example, Eph. 6:5-9, Col. 3:22-4:1, and 1 Tim. 6:1-5.
. . .
The reason why many Christians will be tempted to dismiss the arguments presented here is that we have said (out loud) that a godly man could have been a slave owner. But this 'inflammatory' position is the very point upon which the Bible speaks most directly, again and again. In other words, more people will struggle with what we are saying at the point where the Bible speaks most clearly. There is no exegetical vagueness here. Not only is the Bible not politically correct, it was not politically correct one hundred thirty years ago.
. . .
This entire issue of slavery is a wonderful issue upon which to practice. Our humanistic and democratic culture regards slavery in itself as a monstrous evil, and acts as though this were self-evidently true. The Bible permits Christians to own slaves, provided they are treated well. You are a Christian. Whom do you believe? (1)
On the Law, Homosexuality, and the Sin of Pity
The entire legal system would depend on one book: the Bible.
Let's pretend, just for a moment, that we could have it our way. The great revival we have been praying for has occurred, and every executive, legislator, and bureaucrat in the capital has just been saved. Knowing they ought to begin applying Scripture in their jobs, but not knowing how to go about it, they come to you and your church for advice. What will you tell them? How should they apply God's law?
Looking at the Bible with an eye toward applying it in the civil realm, several things become apparent. First, it is pretty small. … [O]n the average, a little over 1,000 pages. Think of the money governments will save on printing and shelf space!
If biblical law is to be biblically applied, then the biblical punishment must be used.
. . .
Of course, there would be laws enforced against certain crimes which are currently ignored, such as homosexuality. (2)
The list of crimes punishable by death would be a long one, and would include witchcraft, adultery, homosexuality, and cursing one's parents. Most people today would consider this cruel, but that's because they are guilty of the sin of pity. We should kill our family and friends, without pity, by stoning them to death if they believe in the wrong God. And we should cut off a woman's hand if she touches a man's private parts while defending her husband in a fight. And our eye must not pity her.
The civil magistrate is the minister of God to execute wrath on the wrongdoer (Rom. 13:4). God has not left his civil minister without guidance on how to exercise his office. The Scriptures set forth clear standards of judgment for many offenses. Capital crimes, for example, include premeditated killing (murder), kidnapping, sorcery, bestiality, adultery, homosexuality, and cursing one's parents (Ex. 21:14; 21:16; 22:18; 22:19; Lev. 20:10; 20:13; Ex. 21:17).
In contemporary American jurisprudence, none of these offenses is punishable by death, with the occasional exception of murder. The magistrates have dispensed with God's standards of justice. Some Christians believe this is an improvement. They would be horrified to think that the "harsh" penalties of the law should still be applied. Sometimes this is the result of the mistaken belief that the Old Testament has no further application after the advent of Christ. This is an exegetical problem. Too often, it is the result of a sinful view of the criminal. This sin is called pity. … Why is pity a sin?
First, pity is not always a sin. But neither is it always good. … God included in the law specific prohibitions against the exercise of pity in meting out punishment.
If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and serve other gods,". . . you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; but you shall surely kill him . . . (Deut. 13:6-9).
If two men fight together, and the wife of one draws near to rescue her husband from the hand of the one attacking him, and puts out the hand and seizes him by the genitals, then you shall cut off her hand; your eye shall not pity her. (Deut. 25:11, 12).
God commands the judge to evaluate the crime rather than the criminal. If the crime is one for which God requires death, then death must be the punishment. Your eye shall not pity. … Thus, the Bible teaches that pity is not an option where God has decided the matter. The magistrate, God's minister, is to faithfully execute justice according to God's standard, not man's. (3)
On Crime and Punishment
The magistrate is God's minister of wrath against those who do evil. There would be only three punishments: death, lashing, and restitution. There would be no jails, prisons, or hospitals for the mentally ill.
Responsibility for the civil order is placed in the hands of magistrates, who act as God's ministers of wrath against those who do evil (Rom. 13:1-7).
God's law sets forth three basic punishments for crime: death, lashing (essentially, a government-sponsored spanking), and restitution. There is a conspicuous absence of county jails, state penitentiaries, reform schools, and hospitals for the criminally insane. The goal of the sentence is to execute God's wrath. . . . (4)
On Elected Officials
We are all currently ruled by God-hating tyrants. Only male Christians (belonging to Doug Wilson's church) should be allowed to hold public office.
If we have God-hating tyrants ruling over us (and we do), then we must recognize that they rule by our invitation.
First, our rulers are to be able men. ... The responsibility of civil, ecclesiastical and family leadership is given to men. … [I]t is an embarrassment and a reproach to the men to have women ruling a nation (Is. 3:12).
The men we choose are to fear God. The unregenerate do not fear God by definition (Rom. 3:18).
We are to choose men of truth. … A man who honestly believes erroneous doctrine may be sincere, but he is also deceived.
From this list of qualifications, it is apparent that, biblically, it is only professing Christians who are qualified to hold public office. (5)
On Disobedient Children
You can't just kill your son for being disobedient. You have to bring a son that is "worthy of death" before the elders of the church (Doug Wilson's church) and have them kill him for for you.
[A] father may (and must) discipline his son, but he may not exercise capital punishment against him on his own authority. Instead, he must bring a son worthy of death to the elders of the city, who are charged with applying the civil penalty (Prov. 13:24; Deut. 21:18-21). (6)
On Church and State
If the judge can't figure out what the proper biblical punishment should be for a crime, then the judge must take the case to the church (Doug Wilson's church). The church (Doug Wilson) will then decide what the Bible says the punishment must be and the judge "wields the sword." The ultimate authority for every matter is the church (you know who's church). Everyone must be a member of and submit to Doug Wilson's church.
God has established the magistrate for the purpose of executing His wrath, but He has not made the civil ruler the exclusive authority on the question of when wrath is appropriate. If a matter is too hard for the judges to determine with the knowledge at hand, then they are commanded to take the question to the church for clarification. The church decides, based on God's Word, what judgment should be carried out, and the judges are obliged to pronounce sentence accordingly.
The state wields the sword, and must wield it in submission to God's law. But if the law is not clear on a particular point, and the state has a question about what God's law requires, it is powerless to interpret Scripture on its own authority. Instead, the state must take the question to the church, which has been charged with protecting, interpreting, and teaching the law of God. The leaders of the church are instructed to make a judgment as to what the law requires, but the church does not thereby take up the sword. Rather, the judgment is passed back to the state, and the magistrates then wield the sword in a manner consistent with the judgment of the church.
[I]t is not enough that the civil government give Christianity a place at the table, even if it is the most honored place. … Nor is it sufficient that the magistrate render "personal submission to the spiritual government" of the church. While our rulers should be members of Christ’s covenant household … a Christian who is also an executive, legislator, or judge owes a duty of submission different than that of the ordinary layman.
On Non-Christians
All citizens would be required to to take oaths of allegiance to the Lord as a prerequisite of citizenship. "Reforming the State ... is about forcing people to outwardly conform to a Christian standard and about protecting the Christian religion." We should have the courage to punish heretics, apostates, blasphemers, swearers, sabbath-breakers properly. (They should all be killed.)
[T]he political leader is the head of the civil covenant. If that head acknowledges that his authority comes from God (as he should), is it enough that he honors God personally? … Or can he also require, for example, oaths of allegiance to the Lord as a prerequisite of citizenship? (Before you balk, keep in mind that we don't have any problem saying pledges of allegiance to mere flags or the nations for which they stand.)
Again, we have no problem making school children dutifully recite the pledge of allegiance, or requiring new citizens to swear oaths of loyalty to the U.S. government. Why can't they also be required to acknowledge the sovereignty of the one true God, and to "zealously renounce all heathen practices?" … Someone who is required to renounce Buddhism as a condition of citizenship is no longer trapped by a spiritual snare, and can't be a snare to anyone else. That is a blessing. Reforming the State is not about forcing people to be Christians. But it is about forcing people to outwardly conform to a Christian standard and about protecting the Christian religion. Historically, the civil magistrate has enforced laws against blasphemy, apostasy, heresy, swearing, and working on the Sabbath. The difficulty is not in defining or punishing these crimes; the difficulty is finding the strength and wisdom to do so.
On Environmentalists
All environmentalists are anti-Christian and all true Christians are anti-environment.
An environmentalist who seeks to "manage" the environment by letting it run wild is disobeying God's command to fill, subdue, and exercise dominion over the earth.
The consequences of environmentalist philosophy are disobedience to God in the short run…. Droughts and famines do not come upon a people who are obedient, but they are promised to those who disobey. An earth left to itself will only yield thorns, thistles, disease, and decay. If Christians are to be obedient to God's dominion mandate, they must oppose the rebellion inherent in environmentalist government policy. (11)
On Pluralism
There wouldn't be any. Everyone would be forced to belong to the One True Church (Doug Wilson's Church).
[T]he Christian magistrate acknowledges there is such a thing as a true church, and that he has a responsibility to nurture that church so that it thrives and to protect it against those things that threaten to do it harm. Obviously, this excludes the idea of pluralism. (12)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sources: (All of the quotes are taken from the Credenda Agenda, which is the official publication of the church founded by Douglas Wilson.)
1. Douglas Wilson, Thema: So Why Are We Writing About This?, Volume 4, Issue 6
2. Gregory Dickison, Magistralis: Know where to draw the line, Volume 3, Issue 11
3. Gregory Dickison, Magistralis: Your Eye Shall Not Pity, Volume 3, Issue 9
4. Gregory Dickison, Magistralis: On Crime and Punishment, Volume 4, Issue 7
5. Gregory Dickison, Magistralis: On Elected Officials, Volume 5, Issue 3
6. Gregory Dickison, Magistralis: On Disobedient Children, Volume 5, Issue 4
7. Gregory Dickison, Magistralis: The Church as Advisor, Volume 5, Issue 4
8. Gregory Dickison, Magistralis: Nursing Fathers Pt. 2, Volume 13, Issue 2
9. Gregory Dickison, Magistralis: Leading in Righteousness, Volume 9, Issue 4
10. Gregory Dickison, Magistralis: Nursing Fathers, Volume 12, Issue 3
11. Gregory Dickison, Magistralis: On Environmentalists, Volume 3, Issue 5
12. Gregory Dickison, Magistralis: On Pluralism, Volume 13, Issue 2
Posted by Steve Wells at 10/27/2009 08:48:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
9 comments:
atimetorend said...
Wilson is scary in his smugness and confidence, as you know far better than I if you are from Moscow, ID. It is scary people like that choose to have that kind of confidence in the bible, that a particular exegesis of the bible is more important to them than the evidence that the practice of slavery (among other practices) is in direct conflict with basic human decency and goodness.
Wilson's displays this arrogance in all his writing, using the bible to justify his demeaning treatment of others. If that came across in a movie, maybe that would be a good thing. But from what I've seen of Hitchens, I suspect religious people perceive little but smugness on his side of the issues. Probably good for selling movies, but I wonder if it is good for convincing people of Hitchens' argument that religion is harmful to society.
Tue Oct 27, 09:20:00 AM 2009
Brucker said...
Wow. This guy is so wrong. He actually belongs to a church that supports these sorts of views?
Tue Oct 27, 12:59:00 PM 2009
Steve Wells said...
He doesn't just belong to the church, he is the church.
He founded it and he is its pastor. And people come from all over the world to live here in Moscow just so they can be a part of it.
Tue Oct 27, 02:59:00 PM 2009
Tom Goodfellow said...
Wow, what a boob. Brilliant work collating all this.
Tue Oct 27, 03:16:00 PM 2009
matt311 said...
Ho-ly... crap.
Sadly, this is Hitchens' take on the film... and there's not a word of Wilson's inflammatory remarks in the whole damned article:
http://www.slate.com/id/2233586/
Tue Oct 27, 07:07:00 PM 2009
Steve Wells said...
Yeah, Doug and Hitch are good buddies and I don't think Hitchens has any idea about Wilson's beliefs. And I'm sure Doug is not about to tell him.
I remember reading that Hitchens doesn't look into the views of the people he debates. I guess he figures it doesn't matter what the other guy believes, he'll just dazzle everyone with his wit and charm anyway.
Tue Oct 27, 07:42:00 PM 2009
mikespeir said...
"The Bible permits Christians to own slaves, provided they are treated well."
Not true. The Bible allows Christians to own slaves and then commands that they treat those slaves well. But the owning of slaves is never made contingent upon treating slaves well. Owning slaves is seen as a right and treating them well is a mere responsibility.
Wed Oct 28, 03:20:00 AM 2009
Urbain said...
What a fantastic summary of Wilson's philosophy. It reminds me a lot of Rushdoony's rants on dominionist Christianity.
Wed Oct 28, 11:36:00 AM 2009
Ian G. said...
Well, at least Wilson is intellectually honest: the Bible, brutal totalitarian text that it is, demands of us what Wilson believes. Anyone who suggests more moderate interpretations of the Bible is really ignoring God's commands (this is where Nietzsche's "God is dead" proclamation came from: he knew that modern man simply ignored most of what was in the Bible, so they were no longer really believers, in his view).
And this is why I reject the Bible and toss it on the shelf of history's mad literature along with "Mein Kampf", "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" and, oh yes, the Qu'ran.
Mon Nov 02, 05:36:00 PM 2009
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
25 October 2009Gideon's story: The Lord set every man's sword against his fellow
Here's a story about Gideon. You know, they guy they named the Bible after.
It starts out in the usual way: The Israelites "do evil in the sight of the Lord," so God sells them into slavery. Then "the children of Israel cried unto the LORD" and God kills all the guys that he sold them to. (Midianites, this time around)
Here's the long version.
An angel of the Lord was sitting under an oak tree and he saw Gideon threshing some wheat. So he started up a conversation with him.
And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him, and said unto him, The LORD is with thee, thou mighty man of valour. Judges 6:12
And then God joined in.
And the LORD looked upon him, and said, Go in this thy might, and thou shalt save Israel from the hand of the Midianites: have not I sent thee? ... And the LORD said unto him, Surely I will be with thee, and thou shalt smite the Midianites as one man. Judges 6:14-16
(As always, the best way to picture this is to read the Brick Testament story.)
So Gideon has a three-way conversation with the angel and God, but he doesn't believe either of them. He demands a sign.
But first, he runs off to slaughter a goat. And then, guess what happened.
Then the angel of the LORD put forth the end of the staff ... and touched the flesh and the unleavened cakes; and there rose up fire out of the rock, and consumed the flesh and the unleavened cakes. Judges 6:19-21
Yep. The angel touched the bloody, dead goat and it burst into flames.
But it still didn't convince Gideon. He needed another sign to prove that God wasn't lying to him. So he put some wool on the ground and asked God to make it wet, while keeping the surrounding ground dry.
And Gideon said unto God ... Behold, I will put a fleece of wool in the floor; and if the dew be on the fleece only, and it be dry upon all the earth beside, then shall I know that thou wilt save Israel by mine hand, as thou hast said. Judges 6:36-37
And God passed that test, no sweat.
And it was so: for he rose up early on the morrow, and thrust the fleece together, and wringed the dew out of the fleece, a bowl full of water. Judges 6:38
Now you might think that would be enough proof for Gideon. But no. He's still not sure he can trust God, so he asks God to reverse the trick, and make the ground wet and the wool dry.
And Gideon said unto God, Let not thine anger be hot against me, and I will speak but this once: let me prove, I pray thee, but this once with the fleece; let it now be dry only upon the fleece, and upon all the ground let there be dew. Judges 6:39
And God did that trick, too!
So God passed all of Gideon's tests and Gideon and God got down to business. But first, they had to select some accomplices.
I'm not sure how this happened, but it always happens this way. The Israelites were enslaved, but somehow they managed to keep a huge, well-equipped army. I guess they did this so they'd be ready when they cry out to God and he decides to kill those guys that he sold them to.
Well, this time is no different. The Israelite slaves had a big army, too big, in fact, for God's liking. He worried that if they killed all the Midianites with that big of an army, nobody would believe that it was God that was doing the killing. And God wants all the credit for his killings.
The LORD said unto Gideon, The people that are with thee are too many for me to give the Midianites into their hands, lest Israel vaunt themselves against me, saying, Mine own hand hath saved me. Judges 7:2
So God tells Gideon to get rid of some of the men. Start with the chicken shits.
Now therefore go to, proclaim in the ears of the people, saying, Whosoever is fearful and afraid, let him return and depart early from mount Gilead. And there returned of the people twenty and two thousand; and there remained ten thousand. Judges 7:3
That got rid of 22,000. But 10,000 were still there, which was still too many. But God had a plan.
God told Gideon to have the soldiers go down to the water to get a drink. Those that lap the water "as a dog lappeth" are the natural-born killers that he's looking for, while those that got down on their knees to use a cup or their hands are fucking wusses that should be sent home.
So he brought down the people unto the water: and the LORD said unto Gideon, Every one that lappeth of the water with his tongue, as a dog lappeth, him shalt thou set by himself; likewise every one that boweth down upon his knees to drink. And the number of them that lapped, putting their hand to their mouth, were three hundred men ... And the LORD said unto Gideon, By the three hundred men that lapped will I save you. Judges 7:5-7
You see, God knows that real men pee standing up and lap water like dogs.
Now the Bible tells us that there were gazillions of Midianites. They were like grasshoppers. Like the sands of the seashore. Like that.
(Which is strange since God killed every male Midianite during the time of Moses, and yet here, 200 years later, they flourish like grasshoppers "without number.")
And the Midianites and the Amalekites and all the children of the east lay along in the valley like grasshoppers for multitude; and their camels were without number, as the sand by the sea side for multitude. Judges 7:12
Was Gideon worried about attacking a gazillion Midiantes with 300 water lappers?
No. Because some guy had a dream about barley cakes and tents, and that guy told some other guy about the dream that he had, and then later Gideon heard about it.
And ... behold, there was a man that told a dream unto his fellow, and said, Behold, I dreamed a dream, and, lo, a cake of barley bread tumbled into the host of Midian, and came unto a tent, and smote it that it fell, and overturned it, that the tent lay along. And his fellow answered and said, This is nothing else save the sword of Gideon the son of Joash, a man of Israel: for into his hand hath God delivered Midian, and all the host. And it was so, when Gideon heard the telling of the dream, and the interpretation thereof, that he worshiped, and returned into the host of Israel, and said, Arise; for the LORD hath delivered into your hand the host of Midian. Judges 7:13-15
But enough with the dreams. It's time to get down to killing. Gideon gives each dog-lapper a trumpet and a pitcher with a lamp in it, and tells them:
When I blow with a trumpet ... then blow ye the trumpets also on every side of all the camp, and say, The sword of the LORD, and of Gideon. Judges 7:18
And that's what they did.
And the three companies blew the trumpets, and brake the pitchers, and held the lamps in their left hands, and the trumpets in their right hands to blow withal: and they cried, The sword of the LORD, and of Gideon. Judges 7:20
Great idea, eh? But it didn't really do anything. It was God that did all the dirty work by forcing the gazillions of Amalekites to kill each other.
The LORD set every man's sword against his fellow. Judges 7:22
The story gets a bit confusing after that. Two princes are caught, decapitated, and their heads are brought to Gideon. The princes of Succoth question Gideon's leadership and he promises to come back and torture them later. (Which he did and then killed all the men in their city.) And Gideon tells his son to kill two kings, but ends up having to do it himself, since his son was a chicken-shit, cup-drinking, sit-down-pee-er.
But finally we are told that 120,000 were killed in the whole wet-fleece, water-lapping, trumpet-blowing, pitcher-smashing, the-Sword-of-the-Lord-and-of-Gideon episode.
There fell an hundred and twenty thousand men that drew sword. Judges 8:10
Sorry that was so long. But at least now you know why the Gideons chose Gideon as their namesake.
They're fucking crazy.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
God's next killing: A city is massacred and 1000 people burn to death because of God’s evil spirit
Posted by Steve Wells at 10/25/2009 07:53:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
14 comments:
busterggi said...
Wait a minute, weren't all the Amalikites also killed off earlier?
Cheez, were they zombies?
Sun Oct 25, 02:54:00 PM 2009
Steve Wells said...
You're right, busterggi. Moses took care of the Amalekites back in Exodus 17 (God's 10th Killing). But it doesn't say how many were killed, only that Moses "discomfited them with the edge of the sword."
Sun Oct 25, 07:15:00 PM 2009
busterggi said...
Oh, well I guess being discomfited with a sword ain't so bad afterall if folks keep coming back for more.
Mon Oct 26, 05:04:00 AM 2009
matt311 said...
Again with the discomfiting! Jeez, how many times can a Biblical writer repeat himself?
Also, you're welcome, Steve; better to have Biblical apologists actually try to address your well thought-out arguments than satisfying themselves with tearing apart your inadvertant spelling errors...
Mon Oct 26, 06:14:00 AM 2009
Brucker said...
Oh, is this where we put all our copy editing? You call Gideon's son a "sti-down-peer", which I assume to be a typo.
Some days it almost doesn't pay to type.
Oh, and since I generally feel obligated to point out theological issues, "Angel of the LORD" is generally accepted to be a term for a physical manifestation of God.
Mon Oct 26, 08:31:00 AM 2009
Steve Wells said...
Sure Brucker. I guess this is the place. Or you could send me an email. (I guess I should put that up somewhere on the blog.)
I'm not sure what to do about the peer problem. What do you call a person who pees? should that be pee-er? I checked at the Mothers Against Peeing Standing Up website, but they never use the expression "sit down pee-er". I did find out though that "peeing standing up destroys families" and that's a good thing to know.
Mon Oct 26, 09:14:00 AM 2009
twillight said...
@Brucker
I do not know by whom it is "generally accepted" that "the angel of the Lord" is "God physically manifested", but it is not true.
I bet it is just the apologetics' explanation on the Y and E writers' differences in the hebrew texts.
Mon Oct 26, 10:06:00 AM 2009
matt311 said...
Is it wrong that this whole [i]"peeing"[/i] thing is making me think of this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39VGkEY1On8&fmt=18
Seriously, Mothers Against Peeing Standing Up? That's just bizarre.
Mon Oct 26, 10:21:00 AM 2009
Steve Wells said...
Brucker,
Oh, and since I generally feel obligated to point out theological issues, "Angel of the LORD" is generally accepted to be a term for a physical manifestation of God.
Could be, but here's what the Harper Collins Study Bible has to say about verse 6:14: "The Lord and the Angel are not identical. Gideon is unknowingly involved in a three-way conversation."
And if that's not enough for you, The Rev. Brendan Powell Smith interprets it that way too in the Brick Testament.
Mon Oct 26, 10:38:00 AM 2009
Brucker said...
You'll pardon me if I don't have great faith in the authority of Rev. Smith, although I appreciate his artistry.
I'm sure that interpretation is not universal, I just know many Jews and Christians accept it.
Mon Oct 26, 01:17:00 PM 2009
busterggi said...
And many Jews & Christians don't accept it.
Things were so much easier om Kolob with the thetans.
Mon Oct 26, 02:32:00 PM 2009
cwirianto said...
So, by this chapter it is proven that it is okay to ask sign or test God if he is God. So how come Christians and Moslems say it is wrong to test God or just asking for a sign that he is there?
Mon Oct 26, 06:57:00 PM 2009
Fleegman said...
Seriously, what kind of acid were they tripping on when they wrote this crazy shit?
It's like every sentence is a goldmine of stupid.
And people believe it.
Wow.
Fri Oct 30, 05:54:00 AM 2009
Tom said...
Agree with the asking for a sign bit. Christians go berserk when you ask for a sign. I said that I would believe if Jesus showed up in my kitchen right now.
No one even prayed that would happen. It would be testing god and you can't do that. Not even my minister friend would do that.
My born-again-christian wife said that prayers are answered "according to his will" and that wouldn't be something he would do.
Sigh - they have all the answers.
Wed Nov 04, 12:53:00 PM 2009
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
23 October 2009Jael pounds a tent stake through a sleeping man's skull
In God's last killing, God “discomfited” the Canaanite army, causing them all to be killed. (It's not clear how God did this, but he probably forced them to kill each other. He likes doing stuff like that.)
But Sisera, the captain of the Canaanite army, somehow managed to escape. And that night he passed by Heber's tent (Heber was an ally of the Canaanites), which is where Jael enters the story.
Jael was Heber's wife and she came out to greet Sisera, inviting him to stay the night in their tent. She prepared a bed for him, gave him a glass of water, and tucked him in for the night.
Jael went out to meet Sisera, and said unto him, Turn in, my lord, turn in to me; fear not. And when he had turned in unto her into the tent, she covered him with a mantle. And he said unto her, Give me, I pray thee, a little water to drink; for I am thirsty. And she opened a bottle of milk, and gave him drink, and covered him. Judges 4.18-19
Then, after he was asleep, she drove a tent stake through his head.
Then Jael Heber's wife took a nail of the tent, and took an hammer in her hand, and went softly unto him, and smote the nail into his temples, and fastened it into the ground: for he was fast asleep and weary. So he died.4.21
OK, so what, you say. Why blame this killing on God?
Because God blamed it on himself. Deborah, who was a prophetess, said the killing would take place, and that God would take an active part.
The LORD shall sell Sisera into the hand of a woman. 4.9
After the killing Deborah even wrote a little song about Jael and her blessed hammer.
Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be,
blessed shall she be above women.
He asked water, and she gave him milk;
she brought forth butter in a lordly dish.
She put her hand to the nail,
and her right hand to the workmen's hammer;
and with the hammer she smote Sisera, she smote off his head,
when she had pierced and stricken through his temples. 5.24-26
So there you have it. Jael is the most blessed of all women. I think there's even a well-known prayer about it. It goes like this:
Hail Jael, full of grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women....
Or maybe I’m confusing it with another prayer.
God's next killing: Gideon's story
Posted by Steve Wells at 10/23/2009 10:04:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
12 comments:
matt311 said...
...and blessed is the fruit of thy wound, Hammer? :-P
I don't think I'd ever want her to pray for me; she'd probably drive a stake through my head for just asking for a raise at my job.
Fri Oct 23, 11:58:00 AM 2009
Marcus said...
The moral of this story is to wear a helmet at all times.
Fri Oct 23, 12:26:00 PM 2009
Brucker said...
No, no, you're misquoting. Mary is blessed among women (Luke 1:42), while Jael is blessed above women (Judges 5:24). Sorry Mary, maybe if you had killed a few foreigners...
Fri Oct 23, 01:00:00 PM 2009
Steve Wells said...
Oh, so Jael wasn't a women. Is that what you're saying, Brucker?
(If Jael was a woman, and she is blessed above women, then wouldn't she be blessed among women, too?)
Fri Oct 23, 01:04:00 PM 2009
twillight said...
Ah, the highly important teological dilemmas! This's almost as good as the "had Adam bellybutton?"
Fri Oct 23, 01:17:00 PM 2009
Brucker said...
I think the implication is "blessed above (all other) women".
Oh, and since it was brought up, I think Adam had a bellybutton just as much as he had an X-chromosome.
Fri Oct 23, 01:33:00 PM 2009
Steve Wells said...
I think the implication is "blessed above (all other) women".
Which is exactly what Catholics mean when they say "blessed art thou among women" in the Hail Mary. (I know. I used to say it all the time.)
Oh, and since it was brought up, I think Adam had a bellybutton just as much as he had an X-chromosome.
So you think there was a real Adam, eh Brucker? The first human, unrelated to any other animal, and directly created by God from the dust of the earth on this very day 6012 years ago?
And you say you think Adam had an x chromosome. Do you think he had a y chromosome, too? Or did he just had one x chromosome like Jesus did? (Since Jesus was a product of parthenogenesis, he had only one x chromosome -- which means that he was really a she. So maybe Jesus was blessed among women, too. Now we have 3 candidates for the title!)
Fri Oct 23, 02:31:00 PM 2009
Brucker said...
So you think there was a real Adam, eh Brucker?
Well, I'm not a strong literalist, but there are theological implications to the story in Genesis 3 that present problems if Adam did not exist.
And you say you think Adam had an x chromosome. Do you think he had a y chromosome, too?
My belief is that he would have been largely indistinguishable from any other man.
Or did he just had one x chromosome like Jesus did? (Since Jesus was a product of parthenogenesis, he had only one x chromosome -- which means that he was really a she. So maybe Jesus was blessed among women, too. Now we have 3 candidates for the title!)
Hmm, I've never heard that theory. Of course, what with Jesus supposedly being the product of parthenogenesis, it is interesting to speculate as to His genetic makeup. I've always figured that since it's a miraculous conception, just about anything's possible. He could be a clone of Mary (and thus genetically female), the genetic offspring of Joseph (despite not being the physical offspring), or even no genetic relation to His earthly parents at all. I've never heard any convincing reason to think any of these was the definitive option, though.
Oh and thanks for the link, I've always wondered where Ussher came up with his data, maybe I should read more about it. Happy Birthday, Earth! Any excuse for a party...
Fri Oct 23, 07:48:00 PM 2009
Prometheus said...
This is one of those bible verses that sticks in your head, er, I mean it's a memorable verse.
Sat Oct 24, 03:06:00 AM 2009
busterggi said...
Cheez Brucker, you sure are willing to go through any sort of mental gyration to affirm your fairy tales!
Yeah, there are theological problems if there was no real Adam but there are other problems if there was.
Of course there were no explanations for Jesus' genetic make-up in the bible or other classical Christian writings - none of those people knew that genes even existed.
Apologies & apologists evolve even though they don't believe in evolution.
Sat Oct 24, 05:32:00 AM 2009
I Am said...
What a heartwarming story. I don't know if this is better or worse than what happen to John Bobbitt in his sleep.
Come to think of it, the Bobbitt story sounds like the kind of material that could be in the Bible. Would go right along with Deuteronomy 23:1 and God's general obsession with genetalia.
Sat Oct 24, 11:52:00 AM 2009
matt311 said...
Ah, yes; Adam's belly button, which Phillip Gosse so hilariously tried to justify with his Omphalos hypothesis:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omphalos_hypothesis
You ought to tear it apart in some detail, Steve.
Sat Oct 24, 10:03:00 PM 2009
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
22 October 2009Barak and God massacre the Canaanites
This is just another variation of the same stupid story. So if you've been following along, you can predict what's going to happen.
1. The Israelites did evil in the sight of the Lord.
The children of Israel again did evil in the sight of the LORD. Judges 4.1
2. So God sells them into slavery.
The LORD sold them into the hand of Jabin … the captain of whose host was Sisera. 4.2
3. The Israelites cry out to the Lord.
The children of Israel cried unto the LORD: for he had nine hundred chariots of iron. 4.3
4. God slaughtered the people that he sold the Israelites to.
The LORD discomfited Sisera [the captain of King Jabin’s army], and all his chariots, and all his host, with the edge of the sword … and all the host of Sisera fell upon the edge of the sword; and there was not a man left. 4.15-16
This story is more interesting that most, though, because one of the characters is named Barak. (Although Barack Obama's first name is not derived from this biblical character, believers sometimes like to pretend otherwise.)
Here are the details about Barak.
After Ehud dies, a woman becomes the leader of the Israelites. Her name is Deborah and she is called a prophetess and judge. She sat under a palm tree and everyone "came up to her for judgment."
Deborah, a prophetess … judged Israel at that time. And she dwelt under the palm tree of Deborah … and the children of Israel came up to her for judgment. Judges 4.4-5
One day she summoned Barak and told him to take 10,000 soldiers and fight Sisera.
She sent and called Barak … and said unto him … the LORD God of Israel commanded, saying … take with thee ten thousand men … to … Sisera, the captain of Jabin's army, with his chariots and his multitude; and I will deliver him into thine hand. 4.6-7
Barak, who was a bit of a chicken shit, said:
Barak said unto her, If thou wilt go with me, then I will go: but if thou wilt not go with me, then I will not go. 4.8
Deborah said she'd go with him and they'd defeat Jabin's army (even though he had 900 iron chariots), and that God would deliver Sisera into the hands of a woman.
She said, I will surely go with thee … for the LORD shall sell Sisera into the hand of a woman. And Deborah arose, and went with Barak. 4.9
So Deborah and Barak go off to fight in God's holy war. Guess what happens.
The LORD discomfited Sisera, and all his chariots, and all his host, with the edge of the sword ... and all the host of Sisera fell upon the edge of the sword; and there was not a man left. 4.15-16
But Sisera somehow got away. Don't worry, though. God will take care of him in his next killing.
(Since the Bible doesn’t say how many were killed, I gave it the usual 1000.)
God's next killing: Jael pounds a tent stake through a sleeping man’s skull
Posted by Steve Wells at 10/22/2009 10:09:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
5 comments:
Brucker said...
Hmm, I thought I had commented when I covered this chapter during last year's primary season that it was funny that there was a period in Israel's history when there was a power struggle (of sorts) betwen a woman and a guy named Barak.
Something I asked in that post--but never got cleared up, so I'll ask here--is the lack of marking this passage with the "Women" icon. I think it's significant that the army of Israel was led by a woman at this time. Is the "Women" icon only for marking negative aspects of women's issues in the Bible then?
Thu Oct 22, 11:52:00 AM 2009
Steve Wells said...
Good point, Brucker.
I tend to throw all the "good stuff" into that category even when it may also fall in another. I'm not sure that that's a good or fair way of doing things, but that's what I've done up to now.
I tend to agree, though, that having a women lead the Israelites is a good thing (even though Deborah seems just as warlike as the other judges), so I probably should make a comment of some sort. Maybe this is the first (and only?) good thing in Judges.
Thu Oct 22, 12:11:00 PM 2009
matt311 said...
How can you "discomfit" a person with the edge of a sword? It's like getting poked in the ass by a scimitar...
Also, I wish you would cover some of the Catholic Biblical books; Judith is especially positive for women (or so I was taught), despite the fact that she decapitates a man while he's lying drunk in his tent.
Thu Oct 22, 02:34:00 PM 2009
Steve Wells said...
matt311,
Yeah, that "dsicomfitting" thing is a bit odd. But other versions translate it this way, "And the Lord threw Sisera and all his chariots and all his army into a panic." (NRSV)
It's a tactic that God often used. He messed with peoples' minds and forced them to kill each other. (See Judges 7:22 for a more explicit example.)
To me that is about as disgusting as anything can get. A god forcing people to kill each other. But it doesn't seem to bother believers very much. In fact, they seem to like the idea.
As for the books in the Catholic Bible -- well, as an ex-catholic, I'd like to get to them. And I will, if I live long enough!
Thu Oct 22, 07:53:00 PM 2009
matt311 said...
Let's hope; I'm eager to see what you make of the wonderful Book of Tobit, where a man goes blind from bird droppings in his eyes and a demon is repelled by burning fish guts...
Fri Oct 23, 01:01:00 AM 2009
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
20 October 2009The Divine Guide is guiding the Conservative Bible Project
Here's a hot news item from Conservapedia.
Conservapedia was live on WNOX, "Knoxville's Big Talker," Tuesday morning at 7:05am ET for nearly an hour. The phone lines lit up during the show. One caller's statement: "People were guided by the Holy Spirit when they wrote the Bible." Answer: "People are guided by the Holy Spirit now too."
Yes, that's right, folks. The Holy Spirit is guiding Andy Schlafly and his friends as they remove the liberal bias from the Bible.
But I thought Andy renamed the Holy Spirit to Divine Guide! Which I guess would mean that the Divine Guide guided Andy to change its (his?) own name. (I wonder if Andy baptized him in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Divine Guide after renaming him.)
Still, Old What's-His-Name goes by two names at the Conservative Bible. In Mark his name is always "Divine Guide", but in John it's "Holy Spirit". I guess the Divine Guide hasn't quite made his mind up yet.
Posted by Steve Wells at 10/20/2009 11:45:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
4 comments:
uzza said...
Back in Catholic School, he was always the Holy Ghost, which always made me giggle.
Tue Oct 20, 05:17:00 PM 2009
matt311 said...
I thought that was Protestant School? At CCD (a form of Catholic Sunday school during the week), ol' Ghosty was referred to as the Holy Spirit.
Also, I get a kick out of Colbert every time he quotes the Nicene Creed on his show and ends up running through the whole rest of the statement, as if he's compelled to do it; by the Divine Guide, perhaps? ;-)
Wed Oct 21, 01:14:00 AM 2009
busterggi said...
Nolwadays we don't need a Divine Guide, we can pick up a cheap gps.
Wed Oct 21, 04:35:00 AM 2009
I Am said...
Wow, I'm gone for a month and look at everything that's happened around here. Heck, there's even a brand new Bible to dissect!
"Divine Guide" is funny, as are some of the other attempts mentioned in other posts.
The idea of the Holy Ghost is ridiculously vague to begin with. I wonder how many Christian theologians (armchair or degreed) have wished that they had never adopted the idea of the Trinity at Nicea.
Maybe Conservapedia will decide that not just the name Holy Ghost, but the whole idea should go, too. The Holy Ghost has always been the weakest of the three godheads anyway. God the father and the son both can get down to business when they want (killing men, women, and children of entire cities; damning sinners and fig trees, etc.), but that Holy Ghost is a light-weight pansy who mostly "inspires" people. How do we know it wasn't the Holy Ghost that snuck some of that liberal stuff into the Bible to begin with?!
The conservatives should axe the Holy Ghost and reduce the Trinity to a manly Father-Son duopoly.
Wed Oct 21, 03:17:00 PM 2009
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
19 October 2009Shamgar killed 600 Philistines with an ox goad.
The entire story takes place in just one verse.
Shamgar killed 600 Philistines with an ox goad. "And he also delivered Israel."
Shamgar … slew of the Philistines six hundred men with an ox goad: and he also delivered Israel. Judges 3.31
The inspired storyteller obviously viewed this mass killing to be a glorious, noble, and wonderful thing. To him it is every bit as cool as Ehud's message from God (43).
But I suspect that God not only approved of this killing, he assisted with it. How else could one man kill 600 Philistines with a pointy stick?
God's next killing: Barak and God massacre the Canaanites
Posted by Steve Wells at 10/19/2009 12:40:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
18 comments:
Brucker said...
Heck, I'll give you permission for that one, if permission from a representative fundie is what you need. With very few exceptions, killings performed by "judges" are pretty well approved as God-appointed acts of war, which is as good as any other killing-by-proxy on God's part.
Mon Oct 19, 07:51:00 PM 2009
Steve Wells said...
Thanks, Brucker.
So you think God not only approved of Shamgar's killing, he inspired it and maybe even told him to do it? That seems most likely to me, too, from the context in Judges. I suspect that most evangelicals would probably agree with that. I'm not sure about skeptics, though.
Mon Oct 19, 09:35:00 PM 2009
twillight said...
I don't even see a direct connection between the first and the second half of the sentence, namely the 600 killing (see how similar this guy to Samson's act? Plagarism?) and the freeing of Israel. We do not know how this S. "freed" Israel at all.
The Lord of Hosts doesn't mentioned too in that line.
The only thing you could blame the Lord here because he chooses his judges, but that doesn't necessarily indicates they'll have to do anything violent. (Well, my mind is just too romantic I think when it is capable to imagine a diplomatic Messiah of Elohim...)
Conclusion: My vote is, not to involve the killing.
Mon Oct 19, 11:18:00 PM 2009
matt311 said...
An ox goad? Damn, that must've been the strongest damned ox goad in the Iron Age; I wonder why we haven't found any of this miracle technology on archeological digs...
Mon Oct 19, 11:43:00 PM 2009
busterggi said...
Sure, give him the credit.
Its not as if an ox goad is a deadly weapon unless it has some mojo behind it.
Tue Oct 20, 05:09:00 AM 2009
Clint said...
Well.
We won't know, as we don't have anything else to go by. Is there another table which you can place this in.
E.G. Your main table contains the millions of death's God specifically had his finger in the pie with
The second table is all the maybe's.
You end up with a result of "murdered xx million people" and "conspired the additional murder of xx hundred thousand people"?
Tue Oct 20, 07:18:00 AM 2009
Steve Wells said...
Yeah, I thought there would be be some disagreement on this.
Maybe we should wait and let the Conservative Bible clarify it for us. They'll probably say something like, "Shamgar, with God's approval and assistance, killed 600 Sodomite, Liberal, Elitist, Intellectual Philistines with Louisville Slugger baseball bat."
I like Clint suggestion, though. Create another list of God-approved killings, except that then I'd have to make and maintain another long list of killings!
Tue Oct 20, 07:57:00 AM 2009
Clint said...
haha yeah I know, it's a bugga. Maybe you can just put a note down somewhere of the particular biblical reference, so you can come back to it at a later date as a separate task.
The only reason I say this, is that I can imagine religious sympathisers claiming your results fallacious due to something small like this. Which in reality, it would have no significant impact on the total number of deaths he's caused. (...Religious mind's aren't rational though).
Don't give them the chance :-) Stick to the definite's and then you can whip up the 'God contributed deaths'.
Keep up the good work though - love the read!
Cheers!
Tue Oct 20, 08:18:00 AM 2009
Steve Wells said...
OK, for now, at least, I'll just tag these kind of killings as "God-approved" and deal with a list later.
Tue Oct 20, 09:23:00 AM 2009
Jerad said...
From the context I'd say yeah it's thanks to god. But as you say, it's not explicit. I like the idea of a god approved list.
Or you can split the difference and give him 300 of the deaths!
Tue Oct 20, 01:59:00 PM 2009
Brucker said...
Several people have made a good point that I considered mentioning: that an "oxgoad" is a rather unusual weapon. Of courswe, that's why it's mentioned, because, as busterggi said, "Its not as if an ox goad is a deadly weapon unless it has some mojo behind it." That's what makes this story so similar to Samson's story (which came after, twillight), it's not just a mass murder, but one in which a seemingly insufficient weapon was used, and thus it's a safe assumption something supernatural was at play. If toothbrushes had existed in ancient Israel, you just know some guy in the book of Judges would have killed a few thousand Philistines with one.
The issue of God's direct vs. sanctioned killings is an interesting one, and one I intend to address if I ever manage to finish slogging through your list as I said I would. (I'm always impressed that you put in the effort to actually find 1,000+ acts of violence/cruelty; I hardly have the stamina to read them!) A lot of the killings listed were not actually by God, although many of those could be said to be proxy killings. So does God get an asterisk on his record?
Tue Oct 20, 07:57:00 PM 2009
Tony said...
I think that if you include this you'll have to say that god's responsible for all deaths that have ever happened. Christians might say this anyway.
Tue Oct 20, 08:29:00 PM 2009
Steve Wells said...
Tony,
Yeah, Christians like to say that. God is responsible for every death. The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away and all that. It is very nice sounding and familiar bullshit.
But Shamgar's killing is right on the edge. The Bible doesn't explicitly say that God was involved, but the context implies that he was. Just before this killing, in the same chapter, God delivered the Moabites to Ehud, and Ehud delivered God's message to Eglon. Shamgar was the judge that followed Ehud, "and he also delivered Israel." So I think we have enough evidence here to put God on trial and convict him.
Tue Oct 20, 08:49:00 PM 2009
twillight said...
I turn to your side - give 'im the credit!
Thu Oct 22, 12:51:00 PM 2009
Steve Wells said...
Thanks, twillight, but I think I'll leave Shamgar off the list for now. If the verses had of said, "And the spirit of the Lord came upon Shamgar, and he killed 600 Philistines with an oxgoad", I'd add it for sure. But since it doesn't explicitly give God credit, I guess I won't either.
I do plan, though, to create a list that includes every killing that God performed, commanded, inspired, or sanctioned, and when I do, I'll include Shamgar's mighty massacre.
Thu Oct 22, 01:33:00 PM 2009
Rex said...
People, I'm a lover of Christ. Therefore, U'll say I'm biased. Nonetheless, consider this.
Who was being killed by man with His permission?
Hey, they weren't good guys, and at that time they were not the 'chosen people', and by killing the enemy, God showed His protection and faithfulness to the Israelites.
Don't u think?
Fri Oct 14, 11:17:00 PM 2011
Coolies said...
People should read all the chapter and not be so quick to judge God, Verse 12 tells us "And the children of Israel did evil again in the sight of the LORD: and the LORD strengthened Eglon the king of Moab against Israel, because they had done evil in the sight of the LORD"
....God does not allow His "chosen people" to worship other gods or live in open sin, so he,(like any good father, discipline) his children.
The Moabites were a violent and wicked people and when Israel cried unto him he delivered them through Shmgar, its that simple,
Remember, in view of eternity life is but a vapor and a mans life is only a flicker, God allows his followers today to be "lambs at the slaughter" so dont get too hung up on God sanctioning killings,
There is more important stuff to think upon like why God allowed Jesus to be beaten and murdered read Romans 8:32 "He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all"
Why!, because Jesus death on the cross was the price God required to pay for my sin and yours.
Death is a part of life, but whether you live 20 years or 120 years will not be important 500 years from now, its were you will spend eternity that is important.
Mon Jan 07, 03:39:00 AM 2013
Thin Places said...
You're dwindling alright.
No, the point--whether you want to understand it or not--is that the Creator never has killing as the order of the day. In fact, there are several Hebrew laws that lay out severe penalties for killing another man. The killing of the enemy comes in with God's permissive will, not God's order of things. In other words, we all suck and like to shed blood, He knows it, the promise has been made to Abraham that the Messiah will come through him, God never breaks promises, and so the killing goes on not as God planned, but as man saw fit. See, it's all about Jesus the Messiah, it always has been about Jesus, and, whether you like it or not, it always will be about Jesus. So, my recommendation? Read the Bible in context before you spout your foolish ideas on a dwindling blog.
Wed Dec 25, 01:09:00 PM 2013
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
19 October 2009The Conservative Bible: Putting fresh grape juice into old bottles
The Conservative Bible Project (CBP) is done with the Gospel of Mark. And I think they've done a fabulous job!
Take that pesky verse about wine and wineskins, for example. Here's how it reads in the CBP:
"And no man puts fresh grape juice into old bottles. The fresh juice will burst the bottles, spilling the juice and damaging the bottles. Fresh juice must be put into new bottles." Mark 2:22
Jesus was talking about grape juice here, not wine, as the note for this verse explains.
The Greek word οινος, translated "wine," actually meant "fruit of the vine" and was not fermented, as it commonly is today. Repeated references in the Book of Proverbs tell their readers specifically to avoid fermented grape juice. Furthermore, at least five methods of preservation were known to the ancients, methods that avoided fermentation, long before Louis Pasteur would invent his pressure-cooking method.
So drinking wine is wrong and Jesus sure as hell never drank any.
But if that's true, why does the CBP say that Jesus changed water into wine at the wedding at Cana? Shouldn't that be grape juice, instead?
Jesus said to the servants, "Fill the pots with water." And they filled them up to the brim. And he said to them, "Carry them out now to the host of this feast." And so they did. When the host of the wedding feast tasted the water, it had been made into wine, and he did not know where the wine had come from (though the servants knew), and so the host of the wedding feast called the groom, And said to him, "Usually, a man, at the beginning of a feast, sets out his good wine, and when all have drank their fill, then the poorer quality wine. But you have kept your good wine for last!" John 2:7-10
So I guess Jesus messed up here. Oh well, nobody's perfect.
Posted by Steve Wells at 10/19/2009 10:22:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
9 comments:
Baconsbud said...
I have heard of the grape juice thing before but doubt the ones writing this would want to be agreeing with the mormons on this. If I remember correctly there were several times in both the OT and NT that people were drunk and all. Guess these happened before they knew how to properly do the grape juice.
Mon Oct 19, 12:51:00 PM 2009
Brucker said...
Generally, the people who deny that Jesus ever drank wine will claim that this is also only grape juice. After all, the word in that passage is still oinos. It seems pretty obvious from context we're talking about alcoholic beverages, though; it's just like in college when we'd have a party and we'd buy a case of good beer and a case of crappy cheap beer for after everyone was too soused to care.
Also, 1Titus 5:23 only makes sense if it's talking about alcoholic wine.
Mon Oct 19, 03:10:00 PM 2009
Brandon Carl said...
Well here's the thing. There was no unfermented grape juice before Louis Pasteur. The Mormons, and other conservatives have it wrong. It's only so they don't have to suffer the embarrassment of telling their kids that Jesus was a drunk.
Mon Oct 19, 04:22:00 PM 2009
I am the wise fool. said...
They are going to hit trouble when they get to Luke 5:39:
And no one after drinking old wine wants the new, for he says, 'The old is better.'
As we all know, as far as juice is concerned, the newer (fresher) it is, the better. That is unless, of course, you are talking about the fermented stuff!
Mon Oct 19, 06:43:00 PM 2009
vp said...
In the Cana story, why would the host serve the good wine/grape juice first, and leave the poorer till last? Obviously because the guests are getting drunk, so they don't care how good it is any more.
Mon Oct 19, 10:35:00 PM 2009
matt311 said...
Damn... can't they leave this stuff alone? They really want kids to believe Jesus drank grape juice from the little square sippie packets? Don't they know how uncool that is? ;-)
Mon Oct 19, 11:36:00 PM 2009
John said...
Initially I was raised Seventh-Day Adventist; around 3rd/4th grade my father was questioning his faith, the church, and the elders.
For those not familiar with this schism of Christianity, it incorporates additional Jewish traditions into their religious practices. Most notably they keep the Sabbath (from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday), take Kosher to an extra level by eating no meat, and prohibit all alcohol consumption.
My father told me of a time during his 'questioning' that he queried the church elders about Jesus drinking wine and eating lamb (because Adventists do not drink alcohol or eat meat); the church elders insisted that the wine was really grape juice and the lamb was only used for sacrifice and not really eaten. He then pressed further, pointing out that Passover is in the spring, so there would be no fresh grapes; and any grapes from the previous year’s harvest would have started to ferment. So the elders further insisted that the juice was made from reconstituted raisins.
Seriously!? Have you ever tried to reconstitute dried fruit? Let alone make juice from that? LOL!
Tue Oct 27, 08:54:00 AM 2009
dmcmillon said...
Number One, Brucker, you mean 1st Timothy, not 1st Titus. Good reference, though, very fitting. Revelation 22:18-19 would also be a good reference for this situation. It probably is meant only to directly apply to Revelation, but I believe the spirit of it is true of all Scripture.
Number Two, I'm a Christian and I sincerely want to thank you all for reporting on this "project." The CBP gives all Christians a bad name by being illogical, contradictory, and in an unkind spirit. Moreover, most of his changes are as senseless as they are unsupported by Scripture. The Pharisees and Scribes were the most conservative groups in the world at the time of Christ, and calling them Liberals is offensive, false, and ridiculous. Thank you all for helping intelligent Christians expose the rest of us.
Fri Oct 30, 02:36:00 PM 2009
Modusoperandi said...
dmcmillon "Moreover, most of his changes are as senseless as they are unsupported by Scripture."
Clearly not. Since Jesus was a conservative Baptist, the Holy Spirit must be infallible at ferreting out the sneaky liberalese that sneaky Liberals snuck in to His Word. Ergo, Conservapedia, the Wiki that Jesus can edit® must be on the right track. Their logic is unrefutable.
"The Pharisees and Scribes were the most conservative groups in the world at the time of Christ, and calling them Liberals is offensive, false, and ridiculous."
Ah, but they weren't as conservative as True Conservatives, making them by definition really Liberals, in fact. At most, they'd be RINOs, which aren't real Conservatives at all.
Also, "Offensive, False, and Ridiculous" is Conservapedia's motto. True story.
Sat Oct 31, 06:17:00 AM 2009
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
18 October 2009God delivers 10,000 lusty Moabites
After Ehud delivered God's message to Ehud (a knife blade in the belly), he blew a trumpet to summon all the Israelites.
Ehud … blew a trumpet … and the children of Israel went down with him. Judges 3.26-27
Then he told the people:
Follow after me: for the LORD hath delivered your enemies the Moabites into your hand. 3.28
So they followed Ehud and God helped them kill 10,000 lusty Moabites.
And they slew of Moab at that time about ten thousand men, all lusty, and all men of valour; and there escaped not a man. 3.29
Kind of boring, I know. But sometimes God runs out of imaginative ways of killing people.
God's next killing: Shamgar kills 600 Philistines with an ox goad
Posted by Steve Wells at 10/18/2009 10:51:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
2 comments:
matt311 said...
"Lusty men of valour"... do you think the Israelites were gay for the Moabites?
Mon Oct 19, 11:32:00 PM 2009
joshua said...
@ matt311:
If only. The OED has these other definitions for "Lusty" -
10. Of persons: Massively built. Hence, corpulent, stout, fat.
9. Massive, substantial, large. Obs.
6. Insolent, arrogant, self-confident. Obs.
and
1. Of persons and their attributes: Joyful, merry, jocund; cheerful, lively. Obs.
and we also get these translations:
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
They struck down at that time about ten thousand Moabites, all robust and valiant men; and no one escaped.
and
Darby Bible Translation
And they killed at that time about ten thousand of the Moabites, all strong, able-bodied men; not a man escaped.
This courtesy of http://scripturetext.com/judges/3-29.htm .
Thu Feb 11, 10:40:00 AM 2010
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
17 October 2009Ehud delivers a message from God
Remember how in his last killing, God was so angry at the Israelites for worshiping other gods that he sold them as slaves to King Cushy?
Yeah, well, pretty much the same thing happens here, except the names, places, and times change.
The children of Israel did evil again in the sight of the LORD: and the LORD strengthened Eglon the king of Moab against Israel ... So the children of Israel served Eglon the king of Moab eighteen years. Judges 3.12-14
But then the Israelites cried out to God again ("Yahweh!, Yahweh!").
But when the children of Israel cried unto the LORD 3.15a
And he raised up another hero for them. This time it was a left-handed guy named Ehud. God sent him to deliver a present to Eglon.
The LORD raised them up a deliverer, Ehud … a man lefthanded: and by him the children of Israel sent a present unto Eglon the king of Moab. 3.15b
Ehud’s present to Eglon was a message from God: a knife blade in his belly pushed in so far that "the dirt (feces) came out."
Ehud made him a dagger which had two edges, of a cubit length; and he did gird it under his raiment upon his right thigh. And he brought the present unto Eglon king of Moab: and Eglon was a very fat man ... And Ehud said, I have a message from God unto thee. ... And Ehud put forth his left hand, and took the dagger from his right thigh, and thrust it into his belly: And the haft also went in after the blade; and the fat closed upon the blade, so that he could not draw the dagger out of his belly; and the dirt came out. 3.16-22
God has a funny way of communicating, doesn't he?
God's next killing: 10,000 lusty Moabites
Posted by Steve Wells at 10/17/2009 10:06:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
6 comments:
matt311 said...
Eglon... I wonder if he's related to Eglon Spengler?
Sat Oct 17, 11:33:00 PM 2009
twillight said...
Look, I dun say nufin, but "Natural Born Killers" had less killing in it than this...
Sun Oct 18, 10:50:00 AM 2009
busterggi said...
Doesn't the Mafia send messages like this also?
Sun Oct 18, 05:35:00 PM 2009
vp said...
You didn't mention that "dirt" is a euphemism for feces.
Thu Oct 22, 10:35:00 AM 2009
Steve Wells said...
Yeah, I thought that was kind of obvious, vp. But I guess it's not. I'll add a note about it.
Thu Oct 22, 11:23:00 AM 2009
Bee Neljätoista said...
Interestingly, my native Finnish Bible translation does not mention the good king's shit flying out (an old translation from 1776 does mention that, though); it instead says Ehud simply exited the room after offing the king. Some English translations render the end of 3:22 as "...and it came out behind" and at least one as "...and it came out between the legs." One English TL offers two alternates as "and [1] it came out behind. [1) Or he went out into the antechamber ]"
Sun Mar 31, 01:22:00 PM 2013
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
16 October 2009Stephen Colbert is in the Conservative Bible!
(Well, he was, anyway, for about 14 hours.)
Not much is happening anymore at the Conservative Bible Project besides vandalism, banning accounts, and reverting back to the original language of the KJV.
He's back. And this time he's got Jon Stewart with him!
Andy caught this one in only 12 minutes. Way to go, Andy!
Shoot! Now Harry Potter is in there.
And the Dude with the diapers.
Donald Duck.
Andy fixed these 3 in only 9 minutes!
Posted by Steve Wells at 10/16/2009 04:06:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
4 comments:
matt311 said...
I'm eagerly awaiting a mention of this on the show in two-weeks' time.
Sat Oct 17, 03:46:00 AM 2009
Brucker said...
Cute stuff. BTW, you spelled "Conservative" wrong.
Sun Oct 18, 06:37:00 PM 2009
Steve Wells said...
Thanks for the correction, Brucker.
Sun Oct 18, 08:00:00 PM 2009
Brucker said...
Dang, I was bored, so I created an account, and it got blocked before I could edit a single article.
Sun Oct 18, 08:33:00 PM 2009
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
16 October 2009The LORD delivered Chushanrishathaim
God was angry at the Israelites for ignoring him in favor of Baal and Asheroth ("the groves" in the KJV).
The children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and forgat the LORD their God, and served Baalim and the groves. Judges 3.7
So he did what any good god would do and sold the Israelites into slavery. Chushanrishathaim was the happy buyer.
Therefore the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel, and he sold them into the hand of Chushanrishathaim king of Mesopotamia. 3.8a
The Israelites were Chushanrishathaim's slaves for eight years. But then the Israelites cried out together in unison to the Lord and he "raised up" Othiniel, who was Caleb's nephew and the first "judge" of Israel.
The children of Israel served Chushanrishathaim eight years. And when the children of Israel cried unto the LORD, the LORD raised up a deliverer to the children of Israel, who delivered them, even Othniel the son of Kenaz, Caleb's younger brother. 3.8b-9
And then "the spirit of the Lord came upon Othiniel ... and he went out to war."
The Spirit of the LORD came upon him, and he judged Israel, and went out to war. 3.10a
Whom did Othiniel go to war with? Chushanrishathaim -- the guy that God sold the Israelites to.
The LORD delivered Chushanrishathaim king of Mesopotamia into his hand; and his hand prevailed against Chushanrishathaim. 3.10b
The Bible doesn’t say how many of King Cushy’s soldiers were killed in this holy war. I’ll just guess the usual 1000.
God's next killing: Ehud delivers a message from God
Posted by Steve Wells at 10/16/2009 09:14:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
2 comments:
busterggi said...
So Cushy did what Yahweh wanted him to, according tp the book, and was punished by Yahweh for doing so.
Yahweh needed serious psychotherapy.
Fri Oct 16, 03:35:00 PM 2009
matt311 said...
And this wasn't remembered by American slaves... [i]why?[/i] It's a hell of a lot more satisfyingly vengeful than the [b]Exodus[/b] story. ;-)
Sat Oct 17, 03:46:00 AM 2009
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
15 October 2009Biblical Baseball
Before getting back to God's killings, I thought I'd throw in something fun.
via The BEattitude
Posted by Steve Wells at 10/15/2009 01:10:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
4 comments:
matt311 said...
Who the hell is that laughing in the background? It's distracting me from the satire...
Sat Oct 17, 03:43:00 AM 2009
Freddy said...
The laughing is the crew of the "Bob & Tom" syndicated radio program. They do that to discourage people from using the recordings on other radio shows. Limbaugh does the same thing when he plays parody spots (he talks over them at times).
By the way, I love the Dan St.Paul clip! Freddy
Sat Oct 17, 08:02:00 AM 2009
Brucker said...
That was great!
Mon Oct 19, 08:09:00 AM 2009
I Am said...
I love this! I heard this for the first time a few years ago. It makes me laugh every time.
One of my favorite sports-slash-religion parodies. In fact, the only one I know!
Wed Oct 21, 02:44:00 PM 2009
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
15 October 2009And Jesus said, "Beware of the Bread of the Intellectuals"
OK, I spoke too soon. The intellectuals have not been completely cast out of Andy's gospel.
It's true that the scribes and the intellectuals departed from the verses that I quoted last week. But intellectuals still haunt other verses. (I haven't seen any Liberals masquerading as Pharisees lately, though.)
Here is my favorite.
And Jesus warned them, "I caution you, beware of the bread of the intellectuals and the bread of Herod." Mark 8:15
And here are the others that I could find.
The intellectuals came to him and began to try to tempt him with their questions, demanding a sign from heaven. Mark 8:11
Returning to his disciples, he found an enormous crowd had gathered around them, with the intellectuals interrogating them. Mark 9:14
Jesus demanded of the intellectuals, "What are you asking the people about?" Mark 9:16
The intellectuals and corrupt priests heard this and conspired to destroy him, fearing him and the people who were amazed by his teaching. Mark 11:18
When they returned to Jerusalem, the intellectuals (chief priests, scribes, and elders) came to him as He was walking in the temple. Mark 11:27
The "Analysis" for Mark 11:27 asks: "use intellectuals here? or incumbents, or elites?"
So the intellectuals replied to Jesus, "We cannot answer." And Jesus responded, "Neither do I reveal to you my authority for my good deeds." Mark 11:33
The furious intellectuals wanted to grab him them, but feared the public; they knew this parable was directed at them. They gave up for now and walked out. Mark 12:12
And there's still a few elites pestering Jesus.
"But Elijah has already come, and the elite did to him whatever they wanted, as was prophesied." Mark 9:13
"Analysis" for this verse: "Clarifying "they" (Herod et. al)". (Herod et. al were elites.)
Now, back to God's killings!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
16 October 2009:
The "bread of the intellectuals" in Mark 8:15 has been changed to the "yeast of of the Pharisees."
"Intellectuals" in Mark 8:11 has been changed back to "Pharisees".
18 October 2009:
"Intellectuals" no longer in Mark 8:11; 9:14, 16; 11:18, 27, 33.
But "furious intellectuals" are still hiding in Mark 12:12!
Posted by Steve Wells at 10/15/2009 12:16:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
4 comments:
busterggi said...
Is there any better example of the fear religion has of people thinking for themselves?
Thu Oct 15, 02:35:00 PM 2009
Jerad said...
Thank you for keeping us up to date on this project; I can only hunt for fun translations for so long before my head starts hurting.
Thu Oct 15, 03:01:00 PM 2009
matt311 said...
Worry not; leave the conservatives to their bread and Liberals... :-P
Sat Oct 17, 03:41:00 AM 2009
joshua said...
Or why not go with "East-Coast Elites" - the tribes weren't that far from the Western banks of the Dead Sea, after all.
Thu Feb 11, 10:54:00 AM 2010
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
15 October 2009Liberals and Intellectuals cast out of Conservative Bible
Can the Divine Guide be far behind?
Last week I posted some verses from the Conservative Bible. The Pharisees had become Liberals and scribes, intellectuals.
Well, Here's how Mark's Andy's Gospel looks today.
Mark 2:8
King James Version
And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?
Conservative Bible (7 October 2009)
Jesus perceived immediately what the intellectual types were thinking, and he asked them, "Why are you so hostile to this?
Conservative Bible (15 October 2009)
Jesus immediately perceived in His spirit what they were thinking, and he asked them, "Why are you so hostile to this?
Mark 2:16
KJV
And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners?
Conservative Bible (7 October 2009)
Seeing him eating with the tax collectors and sinners, the Pharisees and intellectuals demanded of his disciples, "Why does he eat and drink with these tax collectors and sinners?"
Conservative Bible (15 October 2009)
Seeing him eating with the tax collectors and sinners, the Pharisees and scribes demanded of His students, "Why does he eat and drink with these tax collectors and sinners?"
(Oh, I like that! They've changed disciples to students. I guess Jesus was home schooling them.)
Mark 3:2
KJV
And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the sabbath day; that they might accuse him.
Conservative Bible (7 October 2009)
The Liberals watched Jesus to see if they might catch and accuse him of healing on the Sabbath.
Conservative Bible (15 October 2009)
They were watching Jesus to see if they might catch and accuse him of healing on the Sabbath.
Mark 3:4
KJV
And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace.
Conservative Bible(7 October 2009)
Jesus asked the Liberals, "Which is lawful on the Sabbath: doing good or evil? Saving a life, or killing one?" The Liberals did not answer.
Conservative Bible (15 October 2009)
Jesus asked them, "Which is lawful on the Sabbath: doing good or evil? Saving a life, or killing one?" And they didn't answer.
Mark 3:6
KJV
And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.
Conservative Bible (7 October 2009)
Jerusalem intellectuals came also, smearing Jesus by saying "He has Beelzebub and casts out devils by the power of the devil!"
Conservative Bible (15 October 2009)
The Pharisees then fled from the scene to plot with the Herodians against Jesus, and plan how they might destroy him.
(Damn! I really liked having the intellectuals come smearing Jesus. Why did they remove that?)
Mark 3:22
KJV
And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.
Conservative Bible(7 October 2009)
Jerusalem intellectuals came also, smearing Jesus by saying "He has Beelzebub and casts out devils by the power of the devil!"
Conservative Bible (15 October 2009)
Some scribes from Jerusalem came also, smearing Jesus by saying "He has Beelzebub and throws out demons by calling on the leader of demons!"
(Oh good, at least the scribes are still smearing Jesus, even if the intellectuals aren't.)
So now I'm worried.
How long will it be before the Divine Guide is cast out of the Conservative Bible? It would be such a shame to lose a verse like this:
Mary ... became pregnant with the child of the Divine Guide. Matthew 1:18
Posted by Steve Wells at 10/15/2009 08:26:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
5 comments:
எழில் said...
should the sinners be translated as conservatives?
That would be apt.
Thu Oct 15, 10:39:00 AM 2009
Baconsbud said...
Is this like Wikipedia, where anyone can change things or what? Wow are the conservitives that worried that they have to completely change what the bible says so they can try and stop education.
Thu Oct 15, 01:18:00 PM 2009
Steve Wells said...
Well, now this is like anti-Wikipedia. It was started by Andy Schlafly to counter wikipedia's supposed bias against conservatives.
You can only contribute to Conservapedia if you agree with Andy Schafly on everything. Otherwise, you are cast into the outer darkness.
Thu Oct 15, 01:27:00 PM 2009
busterggi said...
Yeah, shun them edumacated scribes!
First they learn to read & the ness thing ya know they're discover science.
Thu Oct 15, 02:37:00 PM 2009
matt311 said...
Child of the Divine Guide? I'm guessing he'd be just as crazy, right?
Sat Oct 17, 03:40:00 AM 2009
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
14 October 2009Five massacres, a wedding, and some God-proof iron chariots
This is hodgepodge of killings from the rest of Judges 1.
After the Jerusalem Massacre, the "children of Judah" go on a God-assisted smiting spree, wiping out a bunch of kingdoms "with the edge of the sword."
You can read all about it in Judges 1.10-25, if you really want to.
It's hard to say how many cities were massacred. But there were at least five: three in Hebron, one in Zephath, and Bethel.
Judah went against the Canaanites that dwelt in Hebron … and they slew Sheshai, and Ahiman, and Talmai. Judges 1.10
Judah went with Simeon his brother, and they slew the Canaanites that inhabited Zephath, and utterly destroyed it. 1.17
And they also went up against Bethel: and the LORD was with them. … And the spies saw a man come forth out of the city, and they said unto him, Shew us, we pray thee, the entrance into the city, and we will shew thee mercy. And when he shewed them the entrance into the city, they smote the city with the edge of the sword; but they let go the man and all his family. 1.22-25
And there would have been a lot more if it weren't for those damned iron chariots. Some things are just too hard, even for God.
The LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron. 1.19
These killings also contain an important message about Biblical Family Values. Look at the timeless example that Caleb gives to fathers everywhere.
And Caleb said, He that smiteth Kirjathsepher, and taketh it, to him will I give Achsah my daughter to wife. And Othniel the son of Kenaz, Caleb's younger brother, took it: and he gave him Achsah his daughter to wife. 1.12-13
Isn't that a sweet story? God's special hero gave his daughter to the man who could kill the most people. Now that's Biblical Family Values for you!
(Since five cities were massacred, I gave it the usual 1000 per city for a total of 5000.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
God's Next Killing: The LORD delivered Chushanrishathaim
Table of God's Killings
Posted by Steve Wells at 10/14/2009 09:24:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
6 comments:
busterggi said...
"God's special hero gave his daughter to the man who could kill the most people. Now that's Biblical Family Values for you!"
G'wan, Dick Cheney would do the same thing.
Wed Oct 14, 04:58:00 PM 2009
twillight said...
And that wish for blood was so strong, that it didn't even changed the slightest that this marriage happened to be incest.
Thu Oct 15, 12:20:00 AM 2009
matt311 said...
I assume he thought a blood-thirsty warrior was tender enough to take on his daughter; that's what all father-in-laws think, right?
Thu Oct 15, 12:23:00 AM 2009
twillight said...
This is the 42th killing. An incomplete killing. Maybe this is why 42 is not God's favourite number? Or at least one of the reasons.
Fri Nov 06, 01:38:00 PM 2009
joshua said...
Perhaps God-scopes cancel out God-proof iron chariots?
Also, since this is such a good blog, thought I'd mention a little typo:
"a God-assisted [a] smiting spree"
Thu Feb 11, 10:58:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Thanks Joshua for pointing out the extra a in there.
Thu Feb 11, 11:06:00 AM 2010
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
13 October 2009In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Divine Guide, Amen
Here's a fun news item from Conservapedia.
Panic sweeps liberals about our Conservative Bible Project. Another newspaper in the increasingly atheistic Canada runs a story about us.[15] Why are liberals who do not read the Bible themselves so opposed to this project?
Well, I can't speak for liberals that don't read the Bible, but I'm a liberal who reads the Bible (way too much) and I absolutely love the Conservative Bible Project (CBP). It's more effective in pouring ridicule and scorn on both conservatives and the Bible than any of my poor efforts at the SAB could ever be.
One of the things that I like most about the CBP is that you can see what the contributors are thinking. Here for example is the discussion on what the hell they should call the Holy Spirit.
First they deal with the Holy Ghost.
Doesn't the term "Holy Ghost" not convey the intended meaning? Since ghost conjures up images of haunted houses and stuff like that. If the idea here is to use terminology that accurately conveys the intended meaning to people of today, then "Spirit" is probably a better word. AddisonDM 22:57, 17 August 2009 (EDT)
But then Andy explains that changing from "Holy Ghost" to "Holy Spirit"
...had the false effect of immobilizing it in the minds of Christians....--Andy Schlafly 23:01, 17 August 2009 (EDT)
(Ghosts move around a lot better than spirits do.)
So the next word they try out is "Force". Here's what Andy says about it.
I've also wondered if there isn't a word better than "ghost" and "spirit". Perhaps something like "wind" but without the nature-worship connotation.-Andy Schlafly 18:01, 18 August 2009 (EDT)
Yeah, those nature-worshiping liberals would like "Holy Wind" too way much. And it might be confused with "Holy Fart".
But Andy knows lots of other words.
Or perhaps a word borrowed from an entirely different context, such as physics: "energy" or "force"? --Andy Schlafly 18:01, 18 August 2009 (EDT)
And he's rapidly converging on the correct, conservative name for the third person of the Trinity.
Coincidentally, I also thought of "force," though it seems almost too mathematical and physics-related. "Breath" is like wind, but sounds too animistic, while "presence" seems as passive as "spirit." I also wondered about "hand," though that muddles the separateness of the Holy Spirit... DouglasA 18:06, 18 August 2009 (EDT)
So "Holy Force" is too sciency, "Holy Breath" is too animistic, and "Holy Presence" is no better than spirit. "Holy Hand" sounds good, but since Jesus and his dad both have hands it could confuse people.
But Andy likes "Holy Force". Here's why.
It takes some getting used to, but I like "Holy Force." The term may appeal even more to teenagers. It may also gain traction with the physics-students-headed-for-atheism crowd. --Andy Schlafly 18:14, 18 August 2009 (EDT)
Yeah, it will sound so cool to "the physics-students-headed-for-atheism crowd"!
But what about the whole "Holy" thing? Couldn't we scrap that too?
P.S. We don't have to be tied down with the first word "Holy". Perhaps "Divine Force" is better still? --Andy Schlafly 18:16, 18 August 2009 (EDT)
And fuck "force". Let's go with "guide".
This is actually very interesting. I like the sound of "Divine Force" but perhaps that undermines the fact that the Holy Spirit is actually a seperate person of the Trinity. "Divine Force" sounds like a Jehovah's Witness or other non-trinitarian way of describing it. Almost something like "Divine Guide" works better, if you're going to completely change the rendering. AddisonDM 19:00, 18 August 2009 (EDT)
How easy wast that? I guess great minds really do think alike. The "Holy Ghost" was converted into a "Divine Guide" just like that. (It was a Holy Hand job.)
All that's left now is to congratulate each other.
Divine Guide" is very nice! I like it.
No translation has yet been based on the wiki approach, or the conservative approach. I think this project has great potential. Already I have learned enormously from this, as I'm sure other participants have.--Andy Schlafly 19:55, 18 August 2009 (EDT)
But Holy Shit! Now some of the guys are having second thoughts!
I think that "Divine Guide" may be too liberal sounding; to me it sound too much like a Navajo spirit or something. ... It's far too nebulous and frankly, new-age.... User:m9999 09:45, 06 October 2009 (EDT)
I'm with m9999. Divine Guide sounds pretty emasculating to me. Wmarshall 18:50, 6 October 2009 (EDT)
"Divine Guide" is liberal sounding and emasculating. Heck, from that name you can't even tell if the Holy Ghost has a penis or not. (He does, by the way. A really big one.)
But Andy likes it, so the Holy Ghost has a new name.
Here's how it sounds in the CBP version of Matthew 28:19.
"So go and make students from all ethnic groups, baptizing them in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Divine Guide,
No wonder liberals are so panicked about the CBP!
Posted by Steve Wells at 10/13/2009 11:05:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
11 comments:
liminalD said...
..."Divine Guide" is liberal sounding and emasculating. Heck, from that name you can't even tell if the Holy Ghost has a penis or not. (He does, by the way. A really big one.)...
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!! This really made my day, I can now go around using "Holy Penis!!" as an exclamation and justify it scripturally :)
Tue Oct 13, 05:32:00 PM 2009
matt311 said...
Divine Guide? That sounds like a white-robed old mountain man rambling about God talking to him in the middle of the Appalachians...
Wed Oct 14, 02:29:00 AM 2009
busterggi said...
Holy shit!
Wed Oct 14, 05:06:00 AM 2009
Prometheus said...
I see that the CBP has reversed the previous changes, Pharisee to Liberals and now back to Pharisee in Mark 2 & 3. I wonder if they are reacting to your critique of their lunacy. This is great fun, better than a TV Sitcom.
Wed Oct 14, 06:19:00 AM 2009
I am the wise fool. said...
This is what God said, but what he really meant was... These guys are a riot.
I can't wait until they change John 3:16 to "for God so loved all of the conservatives..."
Wed Oct 14, 06:56:00 AM 2009
Steve Wells said...
Prometheus,
Thanks for pointing that out. I hadn't noticed that. But I see that "scribes" are still "intellectual types". I wonder how long it will be before they change that one back. They'll probably revert the whole thing back to the KJV before locking it up taking it down.
I've made a note about the return of the Pharisees at the bottom of the post. Thanks!
Wed Oct 14, 08:19:00 AM 2009
Cristiano SamZZ said...
Huhauhauhauha
That discussion sounded like a Saturday Night Live sketch! :D
Thu Oct 15, 05:51:00 AM 2009
Cristiano SamZZ said...
Huhauha, they've changed again.
"Divine Guide" is too liberal. Now is "Divine Presence". :D
Fri Oct 16, 02:07:00 PM 2009
Nathan said...
I kind of agree that "Holy Ghost" sounds silly to modern ears. Then again, a lot of the Bible IS silly, so maybe it's appropriate.
By the way, since when are Navajo spirits liberal?
Fri Oct 16, 02:52:00 PM 2009
Rob said...
"(It was a Holy Hand job.)"
Almost laughed so hard the people around me at work would have know I'm not really working.
Mon Dec 21, 12:12:00 PM 2009
Thomas said...
May the Holy Force be with you!
Thu Dec 31, 12:14:00 AM 2009
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
12 October 2009The LORD delivered the Canaanites and the Perizzites
After Joshua died, the Israelites wondered who was going to do their killing for them. So they asked God.
Can't you just picture it? Several million Israelites asking God together in unison:
Who shall go up for us against the Canaanites first, to fight against them? Judges 1.1
Well, at least they asked the right guy.
The LORD said, Judah shall go up: behold, I have delivered the land into his hand. 1.2
So God selected the tribe of Judah to kill the Canaanites and steal their land.
The first killing was easy, since God delivered them into their hand.
The LORD delivered the Canaanites and the Perizzites into their hand: and they slew of them in Bezek ten thousand men. 1.4
After the Bezek massacre, they captured the king and cut off his thumbs and big toes.
But Adonibezek fled; and they pursued after him, and caught him, and cut off his thumbs and his great toes. 1.6
Which I guess was to pay him back for doing the same to seventy other kings.
Adonibezek said, Threescore and ten kings, having their thumbs and their great toes cut off, gathered their meat under my table: as I have done, so God hath requited me. 1.6
Then they brought him to Jerusalem, where he died.
And they brought him to Jerusalem, and there he died. 1.7
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Estimated Number Killed: 10,000
God's next killing: The Jerusalem massacre
List of God's killings
Posted by Steve Wells at 10/12/2009 10:43:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
2 comments:
matt311 said...
I find it hilarious (and slightly disturbing) that, after having cut off his thumbs and big toes, the Israelites bring the king to Jerusalem, where he subsequently dies; I'm guessing nobody thought to staunch the poor guy's wounds, and so he bled to death on the way up, leaving an enormous trail of blood for miles.
Yeah, you've got to love those Israelites.
Wed Oct 14, 02:23:00 AM 2009
Shawn said...
I was just wondering about something. When the bible says: "And the LORD said, ", how exactly did the lord say things? Big thundering voice from the sky? Unmistakably god like? Did he speak in the head of some dude who did the speaking for the rest of the favourite part of creation? Was he related to Benny Hinn?
The lord used to say many things, presumably unmistakable. What shut him up?
Fri Oct 16, 11:48:00 AM 2009
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
09 October 2009God's Killings in Joshua
Here's a summary of God's killings in Joshua. Killing Event Verse Estimated number killed Cumulative total
1 The Jericho Massacre Joshua 6:21 1000 1000
2 A family are stoned and burned to death Joshua 7:10-12, 24-26 5 1005
3 The Ai Massacre Joshua 8:1-25 12,000 13,005
4 God makes the sun stand still so Joshua can get his killing done before dark Joshua 10:10-11 5000 18,005
5 Five kings killed and hung on trees Joshua 10:24-26 5 18,010
6 Massacre of seven kingdoms Joshua 10:28-42 7,000 25,010
7 Remaining kingdoms massacred Joshua 11:8-12 10,000 35,010
8 More giant killing Joshua 11:20-21 5,000 40,010
Let me know if I've missed any.
Posted by Steve Wells at 10/09/2009 09:10:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
20 comments:
matt311 said...
On the Eighth Killing of Joshua, the LORD God gave to me:
Eight giants slaughtered;
Seven kingdoms massacred;
Six of the rest demolished;
Five murdered kings;
Four days of Sun;
Three thousand killed;
Two families stoned;
and the walls of Jericho destroyed!
Ah, what a lovely holiday...
Sat Oct 10, 01:04:00 AM 2009
twillight said...
Oh yeah. With 600,000 man at arms it doesn't sounds like that big of a job, does it?
Some little Hitler he was. Oh well, people are like their gods in these stories.
Sat Oct 10, 01:46:00 AM 2009
Baconsbud said...
I am alway confused by how they call this god good yet you find so much that they will call evil if it is a human that does it.
Sat Oct 10, 04:55:00 AM 2009
The Biblical Christian said...
"I am alway confused by how they call this god good yet you find so much that they will call evil if it is a human that does it."
When humans do it, it is fundamentally different. Humans kill for their own greed. But when God does it or He commands them to do so, it is justified, for He is God. We cannot judge Him according to our moral values, since His morals are different from ours, and His is the correct one always.
Sat Oct 10, 05:58:00 PM 2009
Baconsbud said...
Talk about a load of crap. All you are doing saying that is justifying the hate your religion has. So you believe killing babies are good godly morals damn how sick you and your religion really are.
Sat Oct 10, 06:22:00 PM 2009
Minsik said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Sat Oct 10, 07:41:00 PM 2009
matt311 said...
[b]Minsik[/b]: Ha! Ha! Ha!
You disgust me; Christianity is no religion of love.
Sat Oct 10, 09:20:00 PM 2009
sconnor said...
The Biblical Christian
But when God does it or He commands them to do so, it is justified, for He is God. We cannot judge Him according to our moral values, since His morals are different from ours, and His is the correct one always.
So, the supreme moral giver, can't be held to the morals he commands?
So, because god created us, he can do anything to us -- even the most heinous, sick and unimaginable, violation one can conceive of?
The only difference, between a genocidal maniac; a repulsive murderous psychopath; and god, is god, created us -- right?
You are a sick, sick deluded christian drone.
Using your asinine logic, we can NOT hold your imaginary invisible bible-god -- who maliciously caused people to suffer (drowning, famine, war, being burned to death, pestilence) -- to the same standards; the ONLY standard we possess to make that determination and a standard supposedly, created and instilled, into our souls, by god? unbelievable?!?!
According to the bible -- doesn't this quote, below, from scripture, suggest that god invites unjustified suffering on his earthly children?
1Sam 15:3 The Lord says, Go and attack the Amalekites! Destroy them and all their possessions. Don't have any pity. Kill their men, women, children, and even their babies.
Many deluded christians have to do mighty back-flips and mental gymnastics in order to condone bible-god's, sadistic actions by offering bloated rationalizations like the Amalekite children were being sacrificed to false gods, and children living with evil people would be better of dead, or god's morals are different blah, blah, blah.
So, lets get this straight, an all-loving, god created these children and babies, knowing they would be abused and suffer egregiously, with evil people (which god created according to scripture), some of them being burned alive, in heinous sacrificial offerings, but still chose to put these innocent children and babies in these vile, unimaginable situations anyway?
And god's only solution to the problem was to rescind his commandment of thou shall not kill, thereby ordering in a barbaric army of men, to destroy everyone, including, pregnant women and innocent children and babies, showing them no pity, using the primitive weapons of the day -- cutting throats, chopping off heads, plunging swords into bellies, bludgeoning and eviscerating, causing some to suffer for hours or days as they slowly died?
Now these same psychotic christians (like yourself) will assert that god gave them life, so he can take it -- BUT why did he have to cause them to SUFFER in egregious unthinkable ways first?
Why would an all-loving, god create and send these children into these horrific situations, in the first place?
And why would a god -- who could simply wish the universe into existence -- not just simply wave his hand and make these children disappear into his awaiting arms, forgoing all the immense pain and mass suffering?
In an attempt, to salvage your god-concept's despicable, reputation, with absurd rationalizations and strained excuses, insanely, condoning your god's reprehensible atrocities, in the old testament, you completely contradict, "love your neighbor". You have effectually, rendered "love your neighbor as yourself and turn the other cheek and thou shalt not kill", obsolete. Additionally this renders the Good Samaritan Parable and an all-loving god obsolete and paints your god as a miserable, hypocrite and a sadistic torturer of souls, who doesn't practice what he preaches.
--S.
Sat Oct 10, 10:57:00 PM 2009
Baconsbud said...
sconnor your reply was way better then mine and I have to say I completely agree with you.
Sun Oct 11, 07:57:00 AM 2009
The Biblical Christian said...
"You disgust me; Christianity is no religion of love."
Christianity IS a religion of love.
1 John 4:8 - Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
Sun Oct 11, 12:09:00 PM 2009
The Biblical Christian said...
“So, the supreme moral giver, can't be held to the morals he commands?”
It’s more like saying that His morals are always correct, no matter what He does.
“So, because god created us, he can do anything to us -- even the most heinous, sick and unimaginable, violation one can conceive of?”
Yes, He has the full right to do anything to us humans.
“The only difference, between a genocidal maniac; a repulsive murderous psychopath; and god, is god, created us -- right?”
That is a huge difference, a difference that makes everything different. Another crucial difference is that God is correct, while the psychopath is influenced by Satan to do so.
“Using your asinine logic, we can NOT hold your imaginary invisible bible-god -- who maliciously caused people to suffer (drowning, famine, war, being burned to death, pestilence) -- to the same standards;”
That is true.
“ the ONLY standard we possess to make that determination and a standard supposedly, created and instilled, into our souls, by god? unbelievable?!?!”
Unbelievable, but still true.
Sun Oct 11, 12:13:00 PM 2009
The Biblical Christian said...
“According to the bible -- doesn't this quote, below, from scripture, suggest that god invites unjustified suffering on his earthly children?”
Who are we humans to say that what He does is unjustified? I mean, I do agree that it sometimes does seem cruel, but we can NOT say that He is evil or anything because He does. We are simply to comply to His orders.
“1Sam 15:3 The Lord says, Go and attack the Amalekites! Destroy them and all their possessions. Don't have any pity. Kill their men, women, children, and even their babies. “
Your point is?
“Many deluded christians have to do mighty back-flips and mental gymnastics in order to condone bible-god's, sadistic actions by offering bloated rationalizations like the Amalekite children were being sacrificed to false gods, and children living with evil people would be better of dead, or god's morals are different blah, blah, blah.”
I don’t try to rationalize anything. I just believe as it is written, and questioning is not for me to do.
“So, lets get this straight, an all-loving, god created these children and babies, knowing they would be abused and suffer egregiously, with evil people (which god created according to scripture), some of them being burned alive, in heinous sacrificial offerings, but still chose to put these innocent children and babies in these vile, unimaginable situations anyway?”
Yes, He did. The Bible does not tell us why He created them for that fate, but He did, and we are not to question it.
“And god's only solution to the problem was to rescind his commandment of thou shall not kill, thereby ordering in a barbaric army of men, to destroy everyone, including, pregnant women and innocent children and babies, showing them no pity, using the primitive weapons of the day -- cutting throats, chopping off heads, plunging swords into bellies, bludgeoning and eviscerating, causing some to suffer for hours or days as they slowly died?”
Yes. Again, we do not know why He did so instead of finding a more peaceful method, but He did so and we are not to question it.
“Now these same psychotic christians (like yourself) will assert that god gave them life, so he can take it -- BUT why did he have to cause them to SUFFER in egregious unthinkable ways first?”
How am I exactly psychotic?
“Why would an all-loving, god create and send these children into these horrific situations, in the first place?”
His having done so does not contradict the fact that He is love.
“And why would a god -- who could simply wish the universe into existence -- not just simply wave his hand and make these children disappear into his awaiting arms, forgoing all the immense pain and mass suffering? “
The Bible does not tell us, but He must have had his reasons.
“In an attempt, to salvage your god-concept's despicable, reputation, with absurd rationalizations and strained excuses, insanely, condoning your god's reprehensible atrocities, in the old testament, you completely contradict, "love your neighbor".”
I don’t see how we are not loving our neighbors. We Christians are always told to love our neighbors.
“ You have effectually, rendered "love your neighbor as yourself and turn the other cheek and thou shalt not kill", obsolete. Additionally this renders the Good Samaritan Parable and an all-loving god obsolete and paints your god as a miserable, hypocrite and a sadistic torturer of souls, who doesn't practice what he preaches.”
There is no hatred in God.
Sun Oct 11, 12:17:00 PM 2009
The Biblical Christian said...
"All you are doing saying that is justifying the hate your religion has."
Again, there is no hatred in Christ or Christianity.
"So you believe killing babies are good godly morals damn how sick you and your religion really are."
If the Bible says that it is morally okay, then it is. But the Bible condemns abortion as a sin.
Sun Oct 11, 01:06:00 PM 2009
Quantum_Flux said...
I really think the word "sealed" means castrated in the book of Revelation. God does this with the sword of his mouth in order to protect his people from the whore of Babylon:
Revelation 2:16 - Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
Revelation 7:4 - And I heard the number of them which were sealed (castrated): and there were sealed (castrated) an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Revelation 19:2 - For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication (except the 144,000), and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
Sun Oct 11, 03:37:00 PM 2009
sconnor said...
The Biblical Christian,
I don’t see how we are not loving our neighbors. We Christians are always told to love our neighbors.
I can tell you have a difficult time digesting information.
My argument had nothing to do with your lame cult.
My argument posits that "love your neighbor", "turn the other cheek" and "the good Samaritan parable" are rendered useless when you juxtapose god's deplorable, hypocritical actions of NOT turning the other cheek, and NOT loving your neighbors and NOT treating people with decency. Do...you...under...stand?
And while I'm thinking of it, explain the logic behind a god who preaches, "Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another." Colossians 3:13 ~and~ "Forgive not seven times but forgive seventy times seven." Matthew 18:21-22 -- with a god who will dole out unimaginable suffering and torture you for an eternity simply because someone didn't believe in him?
I said, “Now these same psychotic christians (like yourself) will assert that god gave them life, so he can take it -- BUT why did he have to cause them to SUFFER in egregious unthinkable ways first?”
How am I exactly psychotic?
Notice how you couldn't address the question specifically.
And as for being psychotic -- consider your bizarre attempts to justify an ALL-loving god with the egregious atrocities committed or commanded by bible-god.
It's called Cognitive dissonance -- look it up, you f-ing lunatic.
You must offer bloated, strained rationalizations to protect your warped feeble beliefs.
You're also a psychotic christian who has fabricated an insanely and fantastic, massive delusion by idiosyncratically interpreting the supposed word of god; the superstitious, spurious words of scripture, and erroneously attributing feelings to your god-character. You are pretending to have a "relationship" with a fictional character out of a book, that only exists in the confines of your insanely limited mind.
Furthermore, you believe an invisible Jewish zombie can make you live forever if you symbolically perform a cannibalistic ritual, by eating his flesh and by telepathically letting him know you love him and accept him as your savior so he can remove the magical sin curse that was perpetrated by Satan disguised as a talking snake -- cuckoo, cuckoo, cuckoo.
And all of this bullshit you believe in, can NOT be substantiated with ANY objective evidence. These bullshit beliefs are NOTHING but a figment of your delusional imagination.
Sun Oct 11, 11:21:00 PM 2009
sconnor said...
~continued~
The bible is a spurious, collection of separate, ancient stories, written by differing men, using the -- supposed, voice of god -- so as to give it a bogus sense of credibility, and authority where there was none to begin with, which came together, slowly, over time, that dealt with how a primitive superstitious people understood, what god meant to them, during their own specific, time period and their own specific culture. Anything after that is interpretation, speculation or delusional gullibility, which gets us the perverted ideas, beliefs and agendas of so many christian religions. Your god is nothing but a human construct a fictional character out of a book -- a figment of your imagination, a definition, based on your myopic, interpretation of scripture and flights of fancy.
Point is the bible is a hodgepodge of ideas; a virtual grab-bag, where anyone can pick and choose, making it mean whatever they want it to mean, so they can support any deluded agenda they want.
Additionally, the bible most certainly does NOT show itself as something written by or inspired by a divine hand -- to the contrary; it is replete with major gaps of logic, inconsistencies, contradictions and vile atrocities.
The Almalekite massacre, coupled with, ALL the acts of genocide and ALL the sick, monstrous, unimaginable suffering -- in the bible -- commanded or perpetrated by your god, that caused the inexcusable, repulsive suffering of innocent children and babies and their ensuing deaths, demonstrates, the god of the bible, to be nothing more than a made up entity, painfully constructed by fallible humans -- which you insanely profess to be an accurate real-life portrait, without being able to substantiate ANY of your deluded claims.
Bible-god is NOTHING but a mirror into human behavior, at it's worst. The god of the Bible, possesses all the contemptible flaws of humanity, an apathetic monster, who makes all genocidal maniacs, combined, pale in comparison -- a being who should be far above and immune to such abhorrent attributes, and should encompass the best of what humanity has to offer, on a level, at least, equaling the magnitude of the universe but sadly, in the end, the god of the bible is nothing but a malevolent, vile, torturer, of souls.
I don't know what's more pathetically horrendous, a god who will torture children and babies, or the ignorant and insane christian drone, who believes, justifies and condones bible-god's actions?
Christianity, deluded christians and the bible are bullshit.
--S.
Sun Oct 11, 11:23:00 PM 2009
v_quixotic said...
Biblical Christian,
Actually, it could be argued that the bible condones abortion and provides advice on how to carry it out.
Check out one of Steve's earlier posts:
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2008/10/bibles-guide-to-abortion.html
Mon Oct 12, 01:15:00 AM 2009
The Biblical Christian said...
My argument posits that "love your neighbor", "turn the other cheek" and "the good Samaritan parable" are rendered useless when you juxtapose god's deplorable, hypocritical actions of NOT turning the other cheek, and NOT loving your neighbors and NOT treating people with decency. Do...you...under...stand?
Tell me how they were either deplorable or hypocritical. Also, EVERYTHING that God does in the Bible is good and loving.
And while I'm thinking of it, explain the logic behind a god who preaches, "Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another." Colossians 3:13 ~and~ "Forgive not seven times but forgive seventy times seven." Matthew 18:21-22 -- with a god who will dole out unimaginable suffering and torture you for an eternity simply because someone didn't believe in him?
How are those verses incompatible? Forgiveness does not exclude punishment.
And as for being psychotic -- consider your bizarre attempts to justify an ALL-loving god with the egregious atrocities committed or commanded by bible-god.
They are not egregious, they are kind and loving. Everything that God does is good.
You must offer bloated, strained rationalizations to protect your warped feeble beliefs.
My beliefs are probably stronger than your belief that God does not exist.
You're also a psychotic christian who has fabricated an insanely and fantastic, massive delusion by idiosyncratically interpreting the supposed word of god; the superstitious, spurious words of scripture, and erroneously attributing feelings to your god-character. You are pretending to have a "relationship" with a fictional character out of a book, that only exists in the confines of your insanely limited mind.
I didn’t fabricate anything. The Bible is the truth, and no matter what you say, the Bible will always be true.
And all of this bullshit you believe in, can NOT be substantiated with ANY objective evidence. These bullshit beliefs are NOTHING but a figment of your delusional imagination.
That is the same with your Satanic rejection of Christ.
Thu Oct 15, 05:07:00 PM 2009
The Biblical Christian said...
The bible is a spurious, collection of separate, ancient stories, written by differing men, using the -- supposed, voice of god -- so as to give it a bogus sense of credibility, and authority where there was none to begin with, which came together, slowly, over time, that dealt with how a primitive superstitious people understood, what god meant to them, during their own specific, time period and their own specific culture. Anything after that is interpretation, speculation or delusional gullibility, which gets us the perverted ideas, beliefs and agendas of so many christian religions. Your god is nothing but a human construct a fictional character out of a book -- a figment of your imagination, a definition, based on your myopic, interpretation of scripture and flights of fancy.
God is NOT a human construct, I can tell you that much. Also, the Bible is full of facts and nothing but facts.
Point is the bible is a hodgepodge of ideas; a virtual grab-bag, where anyone can pick and choose, making it mean whatever they want it to mean, so they can support any deluded agenda they want.
I full agree on that; I oppose picking and choosing.
Additionally, the bible most certainly does NOT show itself as something written by or inspired by a divine hand -- to the contrary; it is replete with major gaps of logic, inconsistencies, contradictions and vile atrocities.
Those “contradictions” and “inconsistencies” only exist to you because you are an Atheist (Satanist).
2 Thessalonians 2:11
For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false
The Almalekite massacre, coupled with, ALL the acts of genocide and ALL the sick, monstrous, unimaginable suffering -- in the bible -- commanded or perpetrated by your god, that caused the inexcusable, repulsive suffering of innocent children and babies and their ensuing deaths, demonstrates, the god of the bible, to be nothing more than a made up entity, painfully constructed by fallible humans -- which you insanely profess to be an accurate real-life portrait, without being able to substantiate ANY of your deluded claims.
I don’t see how any of that is “sick.” They are all justified, for it was God that committed them. They are not only excusable but also just. None of His actions prove that He is false.
Bible-god is NOTHING but a mirror into human behavior, at it's worst. The god of the Bible, possesses all the contemptible flaws of humanity, an apathetic monster, who makes all genocidal maniacs, combined, pale in comparison -- a being who should be far above and immune to such abhorrent attributes, and should encompass the best of what humanity has to offer, on a level, at least, equaling the magnitude of the universe but sadly, in the end, the god of the bible is nothing but a malevolent, vile, torturer, of souls.
You do know that none of that is proof for His nonexistence, right?
I don't know what's more pathetically horrendous, a god who will torture children and babies, or the ignorant and insane christian drone, who believes, justifies and condones bible-god's actions?
How can a Christian be insane or ignorant, when he is following God?
Thu Oct 15, 05:14:00 PM 2009
Rob said...
Dead babies are raining out of the sky and all Biblical Christian can do is repeat over and over "God is good, God is love, God is just" If that's not brainwashed drone-like behavior I don't know what is.
"Those “contradictions” and “inconsistencies” only exist to you because you are an Atheist (Satanist)."
And I love this...the only reason the bible seems like the wild collection of mythological stories told by primitive goat herders around the bonfire of burning bodies of enemy kingdoms is because God himself is deluding me so that I become an atheistic agent of Satanist...
Mon Dec 21, 11:59:00 AM 2009
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
07 October 2009The Anakim: Some more giant killing
We've finally made it to the last of God's killings in Joshua. And although this one is pretty unspectacular, it does involve some giant killing.
If you remember back in Deuteronomy, God killed everyone in the "land of the giants." Here he helps Joshua do it again.
The victims were the Anakim, who are described elsewhere in the Bible (Deuteronomy 1.28, 2.10, 2.21, and 9.2) as "a people great and tall" -- which is biblespeak for "giants".
Joshua ... cut off the Anakims from the mountains, from Hebron, from Debir, from Anab, and from all the mountains of Judah, and from all the mountains of Israel: Joshua destroyed them utterly with their cities. There was none of the Anakims left in the land of the children of Israel. Joshua 11.21-22
Since Joshua utterly destroyed all their cities and no Anakim were left alive, I estimated the number of victims to be 5000.
God's next killing: The Lord delivered the Canaanites and the Perizzites
Posted by Steve Wells at 10/07/2009 04:19:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
7 comments:
matt311 said...
So... despite having wiped out all the giants in the world twice (once by flood, no less), God still needed Joshua to finish the job?
Sounds like somebody doesn't know how to clean up their own messes... ;-)
Thu Oct 08, 02:41:00 AM 2009
busterggi said...
Clearly he missed one who would later call himself Darth.
Thu Oct 08, 06:52:00 AM 2009
The Biblical Christian said...
"Sounds like somebody doesn't know how to clean up their own messes... ;-)"
It is true that God's will, such as why He chose to do certain things and why He chose to leave some other things to His people, is unknown fully. But whatever He chooses to do, He is correct.
Fri Oct 09, 03:14:00 PM 2009
busterggi said...
BC - How can you call someone that keeps changing his mind & screwing things up correct?
Sat Oct 10, 05:57:00 AM 2009
The Biblical Christian said...
"How can you call someone that keeps changing his mind & screwing things up correct?"
We are not told through the Bible why God changes His mind so much. But what is true is that He never screws up anything. Everything goes according to His plan.
Sat Oct 10, 04:57:00 PM 2009
David said...
"Everything goes according to His plan."
And that.. is the scary part..
Mon Oct 12, 08:09:00 AM 2009
Richard D said...
"And that.. is the scary part.."
I made it through 39 posts without commenting until now...and it's just to say:
LOL
Mon Dec 21, 11:39:00 AM 2009
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
07 October 2009The Gospel According to Mark Andy: The Liberal plot against Jesus
The Conservative Bible Project is off to a fine start. It is rapidly converging on the absurd.
Here's my favorite verse so far:
The Liberals then fled from the scene to plot with Herod's people against Jesus, and plan how they might destroy him. Mark 3:6
(Who knew that the Pharisees were liberals?)
Here are a few more fun verses from Mark's Andy's Gospel.
Mark 2:8
King James Version (KJV)
And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?
Conservative Bible (CB)
Jesus perceived immediately what the intellectual types were thinking, and he asked them, "Why are you so hostile to this?
CBP Comment: the hostility was to the forgiveness
(Intellectual types hate forgiveness.)
Mark 2:16
KJV
And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners?
CB
Seeing him eating with the tax collectors and sinners, the Pharisees and intellectuals demanded of his disciples, "Why does he eat and drink with these tax collectors and sinners?"
Mark 3:2
KJV
And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the sabbath day; that they might accuse him.
CB
The Liberals watched Jesus to see if they might catch and accuse him of healing on the Sabbath.
CB comment: Tentatively using "Elite" rather than "Pharisees" or skeptical "teachers" for more modern accessability. See talk. - "Self proclaimed elite" = "liberals", fits modern terminology, see talk.
(It's hard to decide, isn't it? Were the bad guys Liberals, skeptics, or elites?)
Mark 3:4
KJV
And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace.
CB
Jesus asked the Liberals, "Which is lawful on the Sabbath: doing good or evil? Saving a life, or killing one?" The Liberals did not answer.
(The Liberals didn't answer because they're chicken shit and anti-life.)
Mark 3:22
KJV
And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.
CB
Jerusalem intellectuals came also, smearing Jesus by saying "He has Beelzebub and casts out devils by the power of the devil!"
(Don't you just love it when intellectuals come smearing Jesus? I do.)
I hope this project never dies!
What's your favorite verse from the Conservative Bible?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
14 October 2009: The CBP has changed "Liberals" back to "Pharisees, but "scribes" are still "intellectual types".
15 October 2009: "Intellectuals" and "intellectual types" have reverted to "scribes". Can the "Divine Guide" be far behind?
Posted by Steve Wells at 10/07/2009 07:53:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
9 comments:
Brucker said...
"Who knew that the Pharisees were liberals?"
Totally. The Pharisees were like the first-century Religious Right. This guy's nuts.
Wed Oct 07, 10:25:00 AM 2009
Mike aka MonolithTMA said...
This can't be serious. That's just crazy.
On a side note, my captcha word is "duckful" ;-)
Wed Oct 07, 12:14:00 PM 2009
Prometheus said...
So Andy doesn't approve of any attempt of liberals modernizing the bible, but it's ok for him to do so!
Wed Oct 07, 12:58:00 PM 2009
Quantum_Flux said...
This must be in response to Micheal Moore's Anti-Capitalist Propaganda Documentary....
Socialist Micheal Moore Vs Capitalist Sean Hannity
Wed Oct 07, 02:35:00 PM 2009
Baconsbud said...
I can understand why they would want to do this. It is much easier to keep those sitting on the fence leaning their way if they can get them to believe these are what their god meant when these words were written. It will also help when they finally start expecting there extreme followers to take truly extreme actions. The one question I have for them, how do you get past the claim that the only true version of the bible is the KJV?
Wed Oct 07, 02:38:00 PM 2009
The Biblical Christian said...
The twisting of the Bible to insult liberals (or people of any political views, for that matter) is just unacceptable. To me, the liberals are more "Christ-like."
Wed Oct 07, 02:55:00 PM 2009
matt311 said...
The Bible was twisted already; these nutjobs are just adding fuel to the crazy-fire.
Thu Oct 08, 02:39:00 AM 2009
Tony said...
I do love this project, it's a boon for all us avid disciples of "dwindling".
I wonder if the jews will be portrayed differently when we get to the crucifixion. The conservapedophiles might view their demonization in the existing bible versions as being some prophetic liberal plot to undermine zionism several centuries later.
Fri Oct 09, 04:21:00 PM 2009
Nathan said...
I guess the Pharisees would have been considered liberal compared to the Sadducees.
Mon Oct 12, 03:38:00 PM 2009
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
02 October 2009The Bad-News Bears: A guest post from Brucker
Me with the *other* King of kings.I think a lot of people are surprised to hear that I like Steve Wells. I have a personal theory about the way people interact with each other, and it's very telling when you see the way people interact in particular on the Internet. You see, if somebody outspoken disagrees with you, it's easier to dismiss them as a jerk if you don't really know them. The Internet gives us access to millions upon millions of potential jerks, but it gets more difficult to turn someone into a jerk if you've taken the time to know them a little better.
Now, Steve and I are hardly bosom buddies, but we've e-mailed each other and commented on each other's sites enough that I'd like to think we have a certain mutual respect for each other as people, without agreeing much in the slightest on theology. One thing that I do know about Steve is that one of his favorite Bible verses is 2Kings 2:23-24.
"And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them." (King James Version)
Only you can prevent the wrath of Almighty God!That may not be exactly a secret though, as he's blogged on it several times, the October 1st entry being a recycling of a post from 2007 as he implied. However, two days before I started my blog, on July 26, 2005, Steve wrote me an e-mail ending with: "I’d like to know a bit more about you and get a better idea of how you would respond [to the SAB]. How about sending me an example? I’d prefer something challenging, like say 2 Kings 2:23-24." So I could tell right away that Steve was a smart guy who knew how to cut to the heart of the matter, and I must admit, while I still have this e-mail, I thus also have record that I had no response.
"Are there any Bible believers that are not bothered by this story?" Steve asks. I can't answer for all Bible-believers, but yeah, I for one am bothered by it. There are issues in the Bible that don't have easy answers, and I agree heartily with Steve that it's easier to focus on why perceived contradictions are not contradictions than to deal with perceived cruelty. And when it comes to perceived cruelty, this passage takes the cake.
But that's the Old Testament...No, I'm kidding. There are a lot of easy cop-outs like that one could take. Actually, looking into this verse, I was amused to find that even one translation of the Bible incorporated some of the (potential) cop-outs into its wording.
"He went up from Jericho to Bethel. On the way, young [maturing and accountable] boys came out of the city and mocked him and said to him, Go up [in a whirlwind], you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!" (v.23, Amplified Bible)
For those not familiar with the Amplified, it tends to insert [in-line comments] to clarify terms, but frankly, I think they're stretching here.
But it's a good segue into the usual explanations. Some people have argued that the "little children" were really young men or teenagers, but aside from the fact that the Hebrew (n'arim q'tannim) doesn't support this (although it allows such an interpretation, as the same noun is used of Joseph in Egypt when he may have been as old as 39), it honestly makes little difference to most people. Is it really less cruel to kill 42 "young men" than "little children"? All other things being equal, I don't think this helps much.
Although I hope it wouldn’t come to that!Yet there is one more thing to say about this. Even if one assumes that these were indeed young children, how intimidating would it be to be accosted by a crowd of (at least) 42 kids who were clearly hostile to you? Have you ever considered how many five-year-olds you could take in a fight? If that linked site is to be believed, I myself couldn't handle more than 23, and as far as I can determine, even the toughest fighter can't take more than about 40. It's not completely unreasonable to assume that Elisha felt threatened, or perhaps was genuinely threatened. After all, do you think 42 boys just stood there and let the bears attack them? If the bears caught 42, how many do you suppose there were in total? My guess would be at least 100. Whatever the age of this group accosting Elisha, they weren't just a few kids sitting around, but were some sort of semi-organized mob. Many have suggested that this was some sort of Israeli street gang, a suggestion I find very believable.
The second inserted note in the Amplified Bible points to something that is likely very important about the story, although the Hebrew definitely doesn't support it in such a direct fashion. In context, it is very likely that the issue was not mainly a matter of taunting over baldness, but that these kids were saying effectively that now that the prophet Elijah was gone (see earlier in the chapter), they wish Elisha would go away, too. If so, this is probably key to the story. These kids, knowing full well that the great prophet Elijah had been taken up into Heaven in a miraculous fashion, mocked not only Elisha by their statement, but the great prophet Elijah and the God that both of them served.
Sticks and stones...Being involved in amateur apologetics for so many years, I've noticed a few interesting things about the Bible, you might guess. There is something that I've noticed about a handful of the more shocking verses in the Bible that I just realized has application here. In Numbers 15:32-36, a man is stoned to death for gathering kindling on the sabbath. In Joshua 7, the whole nation gets punished and one man's entire family is put to death for taking a few items from the city of Jericho. In 2Samuel 6, a man is struck down by God for touching the Ark fo the Covenant. And to not leave the New Testament out, in Acts 5, a man and his wife are struck dead for telling a white lie (not for stealing, see v. 4). These verses have something in common with each other, and with the verse in question here. They all occurred near the beginning of a new phase in God's work with the nation of Israel. When God starts something, like the nation of Israel, the conquest of Canaan, formalized religious practice in a newly-established kingdom, or a worldwide Church, He has this tendency (like it or not) to deal decisively with problems right out of the gate in order to send the message, "I'm serious about this. Really serious." This was the beginning of Elisha's ministry, and God wanted to let people know that this was not a man to be taken lightly, as he would be speaking on behalf of God. (Yes, essentially, I'm saying that however cruel you may consider God to be, at least He's consistently so.)
So what does it all add up to? An unruly mob of kids with no respect for authority gang up on a known prophet of God, and get punished for it. (Some have pointed out that the passage doesn't say that the kids were killed, but getting mauled by a bear even a little bit is serious stuff.) It served a purpose in punishing these kids for their lack of respect, punishing their parents indirectly for not controlling their kids and teaching them to respect authority, and letting Israel as a whole know that God expected his prophet to be treated with due respect. Sure, maybe one can think of other ways to have dealt with them, but the fact that this is shocking and violent is, in many ways, the very point of the story. Like the image above appropriated from Cracked magazine, it's outrageous, but hopefully you get it.
There's a message that is pretty consistent throughout the Bible that non-believers don't tend to get: from a spiritual perspective, mocking God is potentially as serious as--no make that far more serious than getting mauled by a bear. Clearly, that's not an easy answer, but in a very real sense, that's the only answer that makes any sense of this passage. I can totally understand that a non-believer would find that hard to swallow, and I respect that. Does the fact that I happen to believe that make me just another fundie jerk from the Internet? I suppose just like the passage itself, that's for you to judge for yourself.
Posted by Steve Wells at 10/02/2009 02:47:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
58 comments:
Tony said...
Very unconvincing apologetics. You say Elisha might have been physically accosted by up to 100 young boys but it doesn't read this way at all. The standard kid group dynamic involves one or two ringleaders who may be somewhat culpable and several hangers on who really aren't.
Here's how it really happened. Some village somewhere in the Levant suffers a terrible tragedy involving wildlife. The village peasants try to reconcile these events by attaching some vague moral/supernatural justification for it. Over generations, the stories get twisted. Somehow it winds up in the bible.
I'm sure that this story has tragic origins.
Fri Oct 02, 05:55:00 PM 2009
Brucker said...
As I said, we all have our own ways of looking at these things.
I just wonder how 42 kids get mauled by bears under perfectly normal circumstances.
Fri Oct 02, 06:14:00 PM 2009
Steve Wells said...
I enjoyed you post, Brucker. Thanks.
I am especially intrigued by your idea that there may have been 100 or more boys in the Elisha Tea Party. I don't think I've ever heard that one before. But that idea has some problems.
I live in Idaho and we've got lots of bears, both black and brown. And we worry quite a bit about them (at least I know I do) when we take a walk in the woods. Sometimes we sing or wear bells to let them know we are coming. And we try to travel in groups, keeping our children with us at all times.
The reason we do these things is that bears, even brown bears, don't attack loud groups of adults. It just doesn't happen. A few adults or a half dozen children are in danger if they surprise a mother bear with her cub, but there is no record of any bear attacking and killing a large group of any kind.
So if there were of 42 or 100 little children, they would be in no danger from bears, as long as they stayed together. And if it was a rowdy gang of adolescents or adults (like apologists often claim), any bear within hearing distance would have been long gone.
There's another problem with the story from biological point of view. Brown bears are mostly solitary animals. Adult females don't hang out together. And they don't attack loud gangs of 100 or so boys or young men. (There's no record of any more than three people being killed in a single bear attack.)
Not that there weren't bears in the region at the time. There probably were. Ursus arctos syriacus (the Syrian Brown Bear) was probably around then. But it would have behaved much like any other brown bear and stayed the hell away from a vicious gang of 100 murderous thieves (as Brendan likes to call them).
So from a biological point of view, the story is extremely implausible. But maybe God created the bears on the spot just to rip apart the 42 children. He gave them characteristics that ordinary bears just don't have -- just so he could kill the little buggers in the most painful way he could think of at the time. Now that could be. He's the type.
Fri Oct 02, 07:09:00 PM 2009
busterggi said...
Personally I think your god is an oversentive drama queen & prick.
Did you see the movie Ghost Rider?
A few dozen cops open up on Ghost Rider with every kind of firearm they've got but of course it can't harm him. Is Ghost Rider as insecure as Yahweh? Does he use his great powers to kill the cops for insulting him? No, he just steps forward, looks at them, extends his arm & waves his index finger at them to indicate 'don't do that'.
Its pretty sad that a comic book character is more secure & understanding than your god.
Fri Oct 02, 07:27:00 PM 2009
Brucker said...
As to the behavior of bears, (and I'm not at all surprised that this is not normal ursine behavior) I thought we were all operating under the assumption that this was some form of divine retribution. Thus what is normal for bears is unimportant, since if the story contained it, it wouldn't be noteworthy. Imagine:
"And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And two she bears came not forth out of the wood for fear of the multitude, and everyone went home for lunch."
We'd have to find something else to argue about.
Fri Oct 02, 08:51:00 PM 2009
Steve Wells said...
I'm not arguing here, Brucker, I'm trying to understand what you believe happened in this story.
From your response I gather that you think these were special bears that God somehow manipulated to tear up the offenders? Did he use regular Syrian Brown Bears or did he make his own bears from scratch? If they were regular bears, did manipulate them with remote control like a child's toy?
I know you don't know, but what do you think? It's your story, fucked up though it is; you're the one who believes it. (I think it's complete bullshit.) So since you believe it, I'd like you to explain how you think it happened.
Fri Oct 02, 09:29:00 PM 2009
twillight said...
The test gave me 28 kids, and I found a combination of 38 kids. Don't know what is the allowed maximum, but maybe someone is interrested. Also I bet Elija had a staff, unlike those who fill out the test.
Now I heard this in more basic levels, and I'm curious how kids turned into grown-ups, mocking into selforganised mob and such. The text clearly (at least no version I could lay my hands on) indicates those.
If you ask me the biggest problems here are these:
- nothing indicates that the Lord exists - or was present in the story at least - at all. So the "they threatened not the prophet but Yahwe" (and Jehova is invulnerable, no?) and the "the most terrible thing you can do is to mock God" arguments are just not valid.
- nothing indicates that the kids knew who they met with. Elija was a cast-out prophet because of the bad relation between him and the king, and there was no mass-communication to make known every self-proclaimed prophet. So the "they were threatening God's choosen man" argument do not stands.
- what the kids actually did, was asking verbaly the bald man who they never met before to go away. So the "they were threatening with violence", "it was an act of self-defense" and "they were a mob for lynching" argument do not stands.
- "there were 100 men there": what'd be more laughable than that? If I have a 100 men army (from a village??? What do you think about those village's size?) we beat the shit out of two bears in no time. You can kick 25 5yearsold alone by the test, but my 100 men can kick 2 bears ass in no minute if we're a "selforganised lynching mob" of your description.
- no matter what, an omni-being shouldn't ever do massacres. Restrain them, calm them down, imprison them - but what the bloodshead for?
- kids don't have religion. They can not comprehend what a "god(ess)" is for a religious person. You can't blame kids, no matter what. They are kids, so just run away if all else fails.
The most terrible apologetic answer was I ever heard though was not included here: Elija('s god) didn't punished the kids, but they parents who didn't educated them well enough.
Sat Oct 03, 01:07:00 AM 2009
matt311 said...
I still think it's a terrible story, no matter the rationale applied. [b]Bruckner[/b], you seem intelligent, but I've been reading the Bible since I was a little kid (yes, even the obscure passages), so I know what I'm talking about.
Sat Oct 03, 02:25:00 AM 2009
Brian_E said...
A very interesting read Brucker! I enjoy and appreciate your attitude toward such subjects. You provide the best explanation you can for it, but don't expect us to swallow that pill. What a breath of fresh air to read such honest and humble apologetics! This kind of Christianity I can live with in this world.
Sat Oct 03, 08:49:00 AM 2009
Brucker said...
Steve Wells: From your response I gather that you think these were special bears that God somehow manipulated to tear up the offenders?
Yeah, I think that's the point. Elisha pronounces a curse, the bears show up. It seems reasonable that one followed from the other, otherwise why put it in the Bible? That being the case, there was something supernatural about these bears and/or their behavior. Beyond that would be speculation based on nothing but guesswork.
twilight: You can kick 25 5yearsold alone by the test, but my 100 men can kick 2 bears ass in no minute if we're a "selforganised lynching mob" of your description.
But if you'd read what I said there, I never denied they were kids. Besides, as I said above, we're talking something supernatural about these bears. Maybe Wells is right, and God really does hate the number 42?
twilight: The most terrible apologetic answer was I ever heard though was not included here: Elija('s god) didn't punished the kids, but they parents who didn't educated them well enough.
Ha ha ha! You apparently didn't read my answer close enough; it's in the second-to-last paragraph.
matt311: ...I've been reading the Bible since I was a little kid (yes, even the obscure passages), so I know what I'm talking about.
What difference does it make how long you've been reading it? I've been reading it (well, Old Testament, at least) since I was a little kid, too. If I'm older than you, does that mean I'm better-qualified to explain it?
Brian_E: You provide the best explanation you can for it, but don't expect us to swallow that pill.
Surely not. One of the other things I've noticed from doing amateur apologetics for years is that there are some things that you simply can't convince some people of no matter what. (And that certainly includes Christians, as I'm sure most people know!) As I told Wells in an e-mail recently, I'm working on a tough essay to explain why I think Christians should be evolutionists, and why evolutionists should be at the very least deists. I expect to convince very nearly zero people of my thesis, but I try to write what I believe to be truth.
Sat Oct 03, 02:07:00 PM 2009
Tony said...
Exaggeration, my dear brucker.
Sat Oct 03, 02:44:00 PM 2009
Steve Wells said...
OK, so the bad-news bears weren't ordinary bears. God either specially created them on the spot to get the job done or he forced ordinary bears to do things they don't ordinarily do.
You say that you've noticed that God tends to behave especially badly (like stone and burn to death an entire family for something that only the father did) whenever he's about to start something new. But why would God do that? Why would God do something especially evil to mark the beginning of something that's supposed to be good?
Oh yeah, I see. You say that God does this to show that he's serious. But it doesn't show that he's serious, Burcker. It shows that he's evil. Seriously evil.
In any case, I don't see any indication of that. God is, as you put it, consistently cruel throughout scripture. God killed people at least 90 times in the Bible. Are you saying that he did each of these killings to mark "the beginning of a new phase" in his work?
And you say that the bad-news bears killing "served a purpose in punishing these kids for their lack of respect, punishing their parents indirectly for not controlling their kids and teaching them to respect authority, and letting Israel as a whole know that God expected his prophet to be treated with due respect." So you think it was a good thing for God to do. It gave the children and their parents their proper punishment and showed everyone else how important it is to respect authority. You think it was a wonderful thing for God to do.
But I don't believe you believe that, Brucker. I think you're just pretending to believe it. And you're not even fooling yourself anymore.
Sat Oct 03, 09:49:00 PM 2009
twillight said...
Brucker: the last of my paragraph was edited the way to show it isn't a reply on your posts, but an alternative apologetic "answer" what I heard of, and what is more stiupid then your try.
Sun Oct 04, 06:43:00 AM 2009
எழில் said...
There are umpteen instances in Bible that this god changes some one's opinion or mind. He appears to many people just like that. Why cant he appears in this place or make the Elisha invisible to the bothering kids? Why kill the kids?
Sure beats me.
A killing should have a justification. Even in the ancient epics of the humans such as Homer or Ramayana or Mahabharata, killing of infants, women and aged is prohibited. Anyone who transgresses this code is severly punished. This code is present in the current tribal societies as well. This is well documented by the anthropologists.
Somehow this evil practice of killing infants, women is not only tolerated but even given a divine sanction in this tribal collection called the Bible.
Sun Oct 04, 10:13:00 AM 2009
Tony said...
Let's assume god exists and that he wants to send a message to everyone by killing some kids. I imagine that death by bear mauling would be a pretty bad way to go. Surely if you're omnipotent you can kill kids with less pain and still get your message across.
Sun Oct 04, 01:37:00 PM 2009
Erp said...
How do rabid bears act?
Not that I'm looking for a realistic explanation for a legend, but, rabid animals (other than bats) are generally known for losing their normal fear of humans.
Sun Oct 04, 03:20:00 PM 2009
busterggi said...
Well Tony, i think a thunderous voice from the sky shouting "Hey kids, cut the crap!" would probably have been enough to stop them without any killing at all.
But where's the fun for Yahweh in that?
Sun Oct 04, 03:47:00 PM 2009
Brucker said...
Steve Wells: Why would God do something especially evil to mark the beginning of something that's supposed to be good?
Because, as I have implied in various ways in various places, "good" and "evil" are often comparative terms. I'm not generally a moral relativist, but like most people, I tend to see that it would be morally acceptable to lie in order to save a life, for example. The Bible has a fairly consistent message as to what was considered mortally serious in Israel: murder, certain kinds of illicit sexual practices, and false religion. I'm arguing that this instance falls under the third category, albeit just barely.
There's an interesting aspect to the baldness thing that I didn't comment on, because I it's speculation on my part. It was not unheard of for Israelite men to shave their heads to indicate that they had taken a vow to serve God. All of the commentaries I read on this passage pointed out that Elisha was not an old man, but rather was probably in his twenties. What none of them seemed to note is that if someone that young was bald, it was probably because he had shaved his head, which very likely meant he was giving an outward sign of his devotion to God. Thus the mocking of the kids was once again, not just a mocking of Elisha individually, but a mocking of Elijah, a mocking of God, and a mocking of the act of devoting oneself to God.
Steve Wells: God killed people at least 90 times in the Bible. Are you saying that he did each of these killings to mark "the beginning of a new phase" in his work?
No, I'm saying several of the most surprisingly harsh instances of God's wrath seem to coincide with inflection points in Israel's history. There are certainly a number of very shocking things in the Bible that just happened in the course of time with no particular historical significance.
Steve Wells: You think it was a wonderful thing for God to do.
I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear: no, I think it's terrible. What I'm saying is that apparently there are instances where God feels He has to be terrible in order to make a point. When evil happens, bad stuff results, and sometimes the bad stuff includes the wrath of God.
எழில்: There are umpteen instances in Bible that this god changes some one's opinion or mind.
I'm not aware of any instances in the Bible where God simply forces someone to change their mind, although He certainly has times in history where He brings signs and wonders in order to influence people. Sometimes these signs seem cruel; possibly they really are cruel! (It's a matter of opinion.)
Tony: Surely if you're omnipotent you can kill kids with less pain and still get your message across.
It is strange in a number of ways. I was talking with a friend of mine at church yesterday about this passage, and he said that while he was aware of the passage, he'd always wondered if there was something symbolic about two she-bears. I told him I couldn't think of anything, nor had I found any suggestion in my research. I'll readily admit that I don't know why God chose to use this specific method, and it's weird. Like you, I could surely think of a dozen ways to supernaturally kill (or otherwise chastise) 42 kids that would be far less gruesome. Then again, maybe the cruelty was part of the point? I admittedly don't know.
Erp: Not that I'm looking for a realistic explanation for a legend, but, rabid animals (other than bats) are generally known for losing their normal fear of humans.
Or... Proverbs 17:12? (NIV: "Better to meet a bear robbed of her cubs than a fool in his folly.") Maybe the fact that they are female bears is meaningful?
Mon Oct 05, 07:41:00 AM 2009
எழில் said...
I'm not aware of any instances in the Bible where God simply forces someone to change their mind, although He certainly has times in history where He brings signs and wonders in order to influence people. Sometimes these signs seem cruel; possibly they really are cruel! (It's a matter of opinion.)//
But he could harden the heart of Pharoah ?
http://bible.cc/exodus/9-12.htm
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses.
Mon Oct 05, 06:06:00 PM 2009
Brucker said...
எழில்: But he could harden the heart of Pharoah ?
Sure, but my view on the matter is not that God made Pharaoh that way, but that God strengthened Pharaoh's resolve.
As a matter of unrelated curiosity, my word verification for this comment was "bearas". For some reason, I find that funny.
Tue Oct 06, 07:36:00 AM 2009
Steve Wells said...
Brucker,
When I said (in reference to the bad-news bears incident) that "you think it was a wonderful thing for God to do," you denied that and said "it was terrible."
So which was it, Brucker? Was it right (and wonderful) or wrong (and terrible) for him to sent the bears?
Tue Oct 06, 08:06:00 AM 2009
Steve Wells said...
Brucker and எழில்:
God also hardened the hears of all the kings in God's last killing (38th) so "that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly ... as the LORD commanded Moses.
Since God hardens hearts so that he can kill people, maybe he put the words in the boys mouths so that he could send bears to rip them apart. He's the type. No wonder believers love him so much.
Tue Oct 06, 08:32:00 AM 2009
Brucker said...
Steve Wells: So which was it, Brucker? Was it right (and wonderful) or wrong (and terrible) for him to sent the bears?
It was right and terrible. I don't think that's so difficult an idea to understand.
For instance, a few years back, I had my appendix taken out. It cost a lot of money, I had to stay overnight in the hospital and a doctor had to cut open my body, leaving three small scars. It was not fun. In fact, while not anywhere near the level of being mauled by a bear, I'd say it was terrible, but it saved my life, so it was the right thing to do.
The fact is, there are a lot of things that are right and terrible, and if you really thought about it, you could probably come up with things that were (oddly enough) wrong but wonderful.
Steve Wells: Since God hardens hearts so that he can kill people, maybe he put the words in the boys mouths so that he could send bears to rip them apart.
That's an odd idea, but also entirely possible. If God had decided it was time to deal with an issue in Bethel, He may very well have tweaked the situation.
Tue Oct 06, 08:41:00 AM 2009
Steve Wells said...
Brucker,
So it is right to kill children in a cruel way as long as it's for a good purpose (like discouraging people from insulting a prophet).
Would it be OK to fly planes into buildings if if some of the people in the building (or their country) insulted a prophet (like Muhammad or Elisha)? That would be right and terrible, too. Just like the bad-news bears massacre and your appendix operation.
Tue Oct 06, 10:21:00 AM 2009
Steve Wells said...
Hey Brucker, sorry to bother you again, but I have another question.
Do you think that all 42 (or 100 as you suggested) cried out "Go away, baldy" (or words to that effect) together in unison? That's pretty hard to arrange.
Or did just one or two say those words, but God sent the bears to kill them all anyway?
I guess it doesn't matter that much though, does it? Whatever God does in the Bible is just alright with you.
Tue Oct 06, 10:30:00 AM 2009
Brucker said...
So it is right to kill children in a cruel way as long as it's for a good purpose (like discouraging people from insulting a prophet).
You know, one of the big reasons I've never been worried about your list of God's killings is that from a theological perspective, it's not really at all troubling that God kills people. Everyone dies eventually, and in the face of eternity, you're going to spend far more time in the afterlife than here on earth anyway. (On a side note, this theological stance informs my view that while abortion is a bad thing, I don't think it's because it hurts the embryo; but that's another matter I don't want to get into.)
Cruelty is the issue that remains to be addressed, though. Getting mauled by bears can't be pleasant. Unfortunately, I don't have a good answer for this, other than to say that while I think these are kids, I do think they were old enough to be responsible for their own actions to some extent. And of course as a Christian, I have to assume God knows what He's doing.
Would it be OK to fly planes into buildings if if some of the people in the building (or their country) insulted a prophet (like Muhammad or Elisha)?
I certainly wouldn't advocate such an action, but I have two things to say about this question. First, as I'm sure both I and other Christians have said many times before, there is a difference between God killing people and people killing people, and it's a matter of authority. If my a man kills my children, I don't have the right to avenge meyself on him, but our judicial system has the right to do so. How much moreso does an omniscient God have the right to avenge wrongdoing?
Secondly, and more subtle, it's clear that you are referencing the events of 9/11/2001, and while I do not think the terrorists on that day were in the right, I confess that I would not say that violence is never the proper response to any situation. I think that individuals have not just the right, but even the duty to stand up to oppressive governments. If that meant flying planes into buildings, then I hope those who feel the need to make such extreme statements would do so in a manner to spare innocent lives as much as possible.
Do you think that all 42 (or 100 as you suggested) cried out "Go away, baldy" (or words to that effect) together in unison? That's pretty hard to arrange.
My guess would be that they all said it (or some subtle variation thereof), but probably not in unison.
Thu Oct 08, 08:27:00 AM 2009
Steve Wells said...
Brucker,
You know, one of the big reasons I've never been worried about your list of God's killings is that from a theological perspective, it's not really at all troubling that God kills people.
So God can kill people for any reason any way he likes and it doesn't bother you at all, because you look at it from "a theological perspective." He can send bears to rip apart children for saying "go away, baldy", burn people to death for complaining, bury them alive for pretty much no reason at all.
And it's OK because you've got your theological blinders on.
Cruelty is a good thing when God does it. When God is cruel you aren't bothered by it, you celebrate it. Hell, you worship it.
Thu Oct 08, 12:06:00 PM 2009
Brucker said...
So God can kill people for any reason any way he likes and it doesn't bother you at all, because you look at it from "a theological perspective."
Any reason, yes. Any way, no. Now, of course it's better if there is a clear reason that can be seen, but when there isn't? I don't know, and I'm not sure what you're looking for from me in response.
Thu Oct 08, 02:21:00 PM 2009
Steve Wells said...
I'm not sure what you're looking for from me in response.
I'm not sure either, Brucker. I guess it just comes down to your choice of Gods. There are thousands to choose from, some naughty and some nice, but each with the same amount of evidence for their existence. Zero. Yet you choose to believe in one that would send a couple bears to rip apart 42 boys for making fun of a prophet's bald head (along with more than 1000 other cruel deeds).
Fri Oct 09, 09:09:00 PM 2009
Brucker said...
Okay, here's a crazy idea: Let me guest-post again, and I'll address your full-length cruelty list. I think it's an exaggeration, and I'd be happy to give an opinion as to the extent.
Sat Oct 10, 05:44:00 PM 2009
Steve Wells said...
That sounds like fun, Brucker.
Send it to me.
Sat Oct 10, 06:10:00 PM 2009
Dave B said...
Hi Steve, Brucker, et al. I participated in Steve’s original 2 Kings 2:23 posting, and just now discovered this new thread. Good stuff. This story was a catalyst that began my journey away from Christianity nearly 10 years ago I got a knot in my chest when I was reading this story to my then small children from one of the Bible story books for children.
Not much to add here, but Brucker made a statement that brought that all back. Brucker said, “…from a theological perspective, it's not really at all troubling that God kills people.”
A fascinating statement that pretty much sums up (to me anyway) why I now detest religion. In worshipping a murdering tyrant, Brucker, you have simply lost your humanity.
The non-believers here (and on every religious blog I participate in) are the ones expressing compassion for their fellow human beings. Christians, on the other hand, spend considerable time with cognitive dissonance and must continuously justify in their minds why a loving omniscient omnipotent creator would knowingly create a world where he would murder his own creation, including his own son.
It is sick.
Wed Oct 14, 09:54:00 AM 2009
Brucker said...
Well, Dave B, you've got a point, but I'd hope you might see mine. We all die anyway, so is it so wrong for God to kill, seeing as He has the long view?
But you've also hit on something that is the most shocking thing about Christianity, not despiteof, but because of its fundamentality: The murder of God's own Son.
It is sick, and that's the point.
Wed Oct 14, 03:36:00 PM 2009
Steve Wells said...
Burcker,
You know, one of the big reasons I've never been worried about your list of God's killings is that from a theological perspective, it's not really at all troubling that God kills people.
Then you're either a liar, lunatic, or a lousy apologist.
God's killings are "not at all troubling" unless you believe that cruelty is wrong or that God is good. But I guess neither of these ideas are a part of your "theological perspective."
But you've also hit on something that is the most shocking thing about Christianity, not despite of, but because of its fundamentality: The murder of God's own Son.
It is sick, and that's the point.
Well, at least I agree with you there, Brucker. Your religion is sick. Any God who who would murder his own son shouldn't be trusted by anyone.
Fri Oct 16, 12:50:00 PM 2009
Steve Wells said...
So which is it, Brucker?
Are God's killings "not at all troubling" to you because you believe cruelty is good or because you believe that God is evil?
Thu Oct 29, 12:21:00 PM 2009
Brucker said...
I don't think killing is cruel per se, because everyone dies. The manner in which someone is killed may be cruel or unfair, yes, but the mere fact of dying is not in itself remarkable.
Thu Oct 29, 03:45:00 PM 2009
Steve Wells said...
That's not what I asked you, Brucker.
I didn't ask if killing is cruel. I asked if you think cruelty is good. Do you? Is anything cruel to you? How about burning people to death?
I suppose you'll say that it's OK if God burns people to death. After all, "everyone dies." Is it OK if he burns them forever after they're dead? After all, everyone feels pain now and then.
You don't seem like a lunatic and you're not a lousy apologist. And I am having a really hard time believing you when you say that you've "never been worried about your list of God's killings."
The reason you pretend not to be bothered is that you have no answer for the cruel and disgusting behavior of a God that is supposed to be good. So you sweep it under the rug of your "theological perspective" and hope that no one will see it there.
Well, I see it, Brucker. And it's a mess under there.
Thu Oct 29, 04:32:00 PM 2009
Brucker said...
What you asked me was (as worded) a multiple-choice question for which I rejected both options. Cruelty is not good, nor is God evil. I think the place where we disconnect more often than not is in the fact that cruelty is a matter of opinion.
I will readily admit that that is not always the case. There are instances of what appear to be cruelty in the Bible on the part of God that I cannot explain away. Sometimes that's where faith comes in. Call it a cop-out if you must, and I'll take it.
Burning people forever after they've died, however? I have made my perspective on that matter as clear as I can. God gives people a choice, and honors that choice despite the natural consequences.
I don't see it as sweeping it under a rug, though. Perhaps sweeping it into a corner, but one where I refuse to cover it up. That's why I appreciate you despite the fact that your intentions are in many ways the exact opposite of my own: someone needs to shine a light in that ugly, dusty corner and ask hard questions.
I see it too. I just see the rest of the floor as well.
Thu Oct 29, 11:02:00 PM 2009
Steve Wells said...
So, Brucker, do you think it's cruel to burn people to death? (It would be nice to get a "yes" or "no" answer on this before you start hiding it with your "theological perspective.")
I read your justification of Hell. You have a knack for making nasty things sound almost nice.
You say that "the real issue is having enough information to understand to some extent the nature of God, and refusing to acknowledge Him." Well, I have enough information. But I could no more "acknowledge" the existence of the God of the Bible than I could acknowledge the truth of astrology or the fair and balanced nature of Fox News -- which from your (nasty) theological perspective means that I deserve to be tormented (nicely) forever in Hell.
Are you as unconcerned with truth as you are untroubled by cruelty?
Fri Oct 30, 10:02:00 AM 2009
Steve Wells said...
Shoot Brucker! I was hoping you'd explain why burning people to death isn't "really at all troubling" when you look at it from a "theological perspective."
Maybe you'd like to do a guest post on it? How about explaining why God's 15th killing doesn't trouble you?
Are there any other believers that would like to do a guest post on this? Let me know.
Wed Nov 04, 05:33:00 PM 2009
Brucker said...
Sorry, I was taking some time to consider whether I really had anything useful to add to the conversation. Truthfully, I'm not sure I do at this point, but I guess I should answer you anyway.
Burning people to death does seem rather cruel, yes. Really, so does stoning for that matter, which is a much more common method of killing Biblical miscreants, isn't it? Both are troubling, and there's no need to deny it.
The only thing that I think I could say in defense of that sort of thing is that these punishments are meant to be not only punitive, but preventive.
Thu Nov 05, 08:27:00 AM 2009
Steve Wells said...
Thanks, Brucker.
So burning people to death seems cruel to you, and it is troubling to you that God burned people to death in the Bible.
But I thought you said that God's killings aren't at all troubling to you since you view them from a theological perspective. Which is it?
And what's with the "miscreants" stuff? God killed every Egyptian firstborn child in his tenth Egyptian plague. Were all those children miscreants?
I think God's killings trouble you plenty, Brucker. That's why you and other apologists are reluctant to address them.
Thu Nov 05, 09:41:00 AM 2009
Brucker said...
It's death itself that doesn't bother me; the manner of killing may be a different matter. Burning hurts, but it only hurts a live person. Once they die, there is no longer any pain. There is no evidence that the Egyptian firstborns were burned, nor that they suffered in any way. The ones who suffered that plague were the parents, Egyptians who were complacent while the Hebrews were held in slavery for over 400 years, and their own children were drowned in the Nile.
Then again, you were the one who felt it was wrong for the Hebrew midwives to lie to save the lives of Hebrew boys, right?
Thu Nov 05, 11:12:00 AM 2009
Steve Wells said...
I see, Brucker.
You're OK with God burning people to death because the pain only lasts a little while and after the "miscreants" die they don't suffer anymore. (Unless God decides to punish them forever after they die, which you're also OK with. After all, they're miscreants.)
And everything's fair game with children. God can kill them any way he likes. After all, it's not them that he's punishing; it's their parents. Fair is fair.
And I didn't say it was wrong for the Hebrew midwives to lie. I said God rewarded them for lying (which he did).
I suppose God might do the same to you. If he existed, that is.
Thu Nov 05, 11:26:00 AM 2009
Brucker said...
I guess I should have taken your advice and gone for the simple answer. Am I okay with burning? No.
Burning hurts, dying doesn't.
Thu Nov 05, 12:05:00 PM 2009
Steve Wells said...
Brucker,
OK. So you think burning people to death is cruel.
How then do you deal with the times in the Bible when God burns people to death or when he commands others to do so? Is it always wrong to be cruel or is it OK in certain circumstances (like when God does it or commands others to do it)?
How do you avoid concluding that the God of the Bible is cruel, and, therefore, not good?
Mon Nov 09, 08:03:00 PM 2009
Brucker said...
Ever heard the phrase "You've got to be cruel to be kind"? While burning to death is pretty far up the cruel scale (and so is bear-mauling) there's truth to it. There are a lot of arguably cruel ways that people are killed in the Bible, but it's not arbitrary.
God says, "Don't {fill in the blank}, or you'll be stoned to death." Don't want to be stoned to death? Then don't do whatever it was God said not to do. And God tells people to act in certain ways not because He enjoys seeing people stoned/burned/mauled to death, but because He wants them to avoid things that will hurt them and their society.
We can argue this back and forth as long as you want, but we each know we're not likely to disabuse the other of his opinion.
Mon Nov 09, 08:16:00 PM 2009
Steve Wells said...
Oh, I see. You think it's OK to be cruel. You've got to be cruel to be kind, and all that.
You think it's OK to stone or burn people to death. It's OK for God to do it; it's OK for you to do it if God tells you to.
That's enough for me. Your heart has been completely hardened by the God of the Bible. You have no morals left at all.
Mon Nov 09, 08:52:00 PM 2009
Brucker said...
Read my responses however you want, Steve; I obviously have no way of making you do otherwise.
Mon Nov 09, 09:06:00 PM 2009
Steve Wells said...
Is there another way to read your responses, Brucker?
But maybe I have misread them. I'll try rephrasing the question.
Do you think it is wrong to burn or stone people to death?
Mon Nov 09, 09:19:00 PM 2009
Paul said...
Ok I have a major problem here with the "filling in of grey areas" with wild guesses that attempt to justify a horrific (and weird) massacre. If we are going to analyse these things we really need to stick to the facts of what is written, not just dream up bits to help soften the blow. We cant just guess that as many as 100 kids may have been involved, or postulate on whether kids might actually mean adults - it doesnt say any of that. Why dont we make it even more "forgivable". Lets say the kids were stamping on images of the Pope as well - I mean come on! Chants of "Go up you bald head" sounds like a pretty tame angry mob to me, get yourself down to any football ground any day of the week and youll hear much bigger crowds shouting worse things at individuals than that! I really think that discussing the ins and outs of such blatant nonsense has its limits and as regardless of whether this actually happened or not, it comes down to one simple question:
Is it Ok to slay people who dont agree with you?
Thats a simple question with a yes or no answer. God may be offended by people who deny him, Elisah might be offended by people who draw attention to his slaphead. I personally am offended by people who look for divine meaning in ancient nonsense and dont see the hypocrisy in claiming that a story about prepubsecents being slaughtered by wildlife is actually a message of divine love! Id take this more seriously if you claimed you heard it when spinning a Beatles record backwards!
Wed Nov 11, 11:59:00 AM 2009
Brucker said...
Man, now you're making me nostalgic. Ah, the good old days of turntables and playing music backwards. Did you ever play "Purple Rain" backwards? Good stuff, although I always was partial to playing 33s on 45 and turning every record into a Chipmunks album.
Back to the point, though... I don't think I am making "wild guesses", although you may of course disagree. I'd like to think I'm making educated guesses based on larger context. The story does not outright say that there were more than 42 in the crowd, nor does it say that they were actually adults. What it also doesn't say is that they were "prepubescents", that Elisha was "offended", nor even (explicitly) that God was involved in any way. But like stories in any work of literature, you read what's there and try to infer what is not there.
Is it okay to slay people who don't agree with you? I'd say no, but don't read that this is what happened here.
Wed Nov 11, 02:25:00 PM 2009
Paul said...
Brucker
What is what happened here then? Is it Ok to slay people who call you baldy? Is it Ok to slay people who dont believe in God? Is it Ok to slay anybody via the medium of she-bear or otherwise?
As for the reading between the lines, this is the classical biblical interpretation which is what I find a extremely difficult to justify. You might call it an educated guess, but a scientist would call it baseless speculation, a historian would call the whole thing an untrustworthy secondary source and a Muslim would call it blasphy. Is your educated guess based on a profound knowledge of the ecology of bears? The sociology of group dynamics? Or an extensive study of the stigma associated with baldness in a cultural context in societies of the biblical Holy Land? Educated guesses have to be educated, otherwise they are just guesses. I could guess for example that were 50,000 people in that crowd, that at least half of them were carrying weapons and that in fact the bears were bald too and just acting in self defence. They were later killed and barbecued afterwards and the whole town praised God for such a feast. You see there is a difference between an educated guess and a guess. Guesses have no basis other than a vague plausibility. I am sure you can understand that when you try to apply this sort of "guess" to modern day moral issues (such as whether you can kill people who dont share your religious beliefs) then the potential for problems are enormous!
Nobody in their right mind would go so far as to describe the events portrayed in this frankly ridiculous story (because lets face it, it is ridiculous!) as either moral, or as some kind of baseline instruction manual on how to be a good person.
You see the point I am trying to make is that there is absolutely no harm in speculating on a work of fiction. Whether Pinocchio is a social comment on puppet adoption or whether Peter Pan had pubic hair may be entertaining discussions, but nobody is making the leap to apply the results of the "educated guesses" used in those cases to real life scenarios, and anybody who attempted to would probably get the short shrift that they deserve. What you are doing is claiming that this is the word of God, the highest law, then using a 21st Century attitude to speculate on the moral message behind a 3000 or more year old bear attack! Is that sillier than talking about Peter Pan´s pubes? As facetious as I am being here, its a serious issue, people fly aeroplanes into buildings based on this same attitude. (of course I am not suggesting that you would by any stretch of the imagination, I am however saying that permitting this kind of "reading between the lines" when it comes to Holy Books enables people to do that kind of thing!)
Its also interesting you say that it doesnt mention Gods involvement here. Is it fair to say that the non-involvement of God in events here means that we should cease to look for divine meaning in this horrible little tale? Lets just say killing people is wrong, people being killed by bears never constitutes "being cruel to be kind" and bald people really shouldnt be surprised if a crowd of kids decides to poke fun at them (Im bald myself so I speak from experience - there is never a bear around when you need them these days!).
Otherwise lets start debating the possible social message behind that guy who got bit in the face by a bear on Polish telly? (Its actually a very funny video if youre not the one with the bears jaws wrapped around your head!). At least we have eye witnesses there!
Salutti
P
Wed Nov 11, 03:50:00 PM 2009
Brucker said...
I can't figure out why I'm liking your responses so much. Maybe it's because you seem to be admitting in your verbosity that dealing with things like this is far from simple. Whether you're a Bible believer or not, when you approach this story and try to figure out what's going on, what it means, and what the moral implications are, you have to make some assumptions, and with the sketchy detail given, it's likely that different people will make different assumptions (probably ones that support their own viewpoint, natch).
You do point out something that's important, though, although I don't think you mean it the way I am going to run with it. I don't think this is a moral tale. Certainly we're not meant to take away from this that when we do God's work, we should use bears to silence our detractors. The humorous "Don't fuck with God or bears will eat you" message is just humor, and not meant by anyone to be taken seriously. I hope!) So what are we to take from it? Frankly, I don't fully know, nor do I think this is a "good" story. The fact that it's mentioned in the Bible indicates that God was probably involved, and there was a moral issue involved, but sure, I'm only speculating as to what it was. My only defense is that what I speculate is not completely unthinkable.
Sat Nov 14, 08:10:00 AM 2009
Paul said...
Brucker
You almost get what I am trying to say. In fact its not that dealing with this kind of thing is far from simple. It is that looking for things that arent there is a waste of time. The only reason that we think that there HAS to be a message behind this is because we are assuming there must be because it is in the Bible. If we remove the assumption (because it is an assumption that you even make yourself in your message!) that the Bible is the word of God, then BINGO all the difficulties disappear. Its only difficult because we are asking the wrong question. Imagine for example if Galileo had allowed himself to be restrained by religious claptrap (and they tried their best to bully him into thinking their way too!). Can we not learn the lessons of the past?
Its just a horrible little story! Then there is no need to justify mass killing as merciful any more than you have to try to justify what Freddy Krueger does! Its just pointless, frequently silly, and often nonsensical drivel.
This stuff was written by ancient scribes to be read by ancient communities with an ancient understanding of the way the world works. The message for me is clear FEAR GOD. Believe in him or die a horrible death on earth and suffer for eternity in hell. That is a message that is repeated throughout the old testament - its invariable, reaches new levels of horribleness each time, and the only thing that outstrips the horribleness of it all is the silliness of it. I can understand why these things might frighten a Mesopotamian goat herder in 5AD but a person with a high school in the 21st Century really should be seeing through it! Its purpose was to scare people into believing in God. The need to do that being because the actual evidence for the existence of God is so flimsy that anybody with a modicum of rationality wouldnt need more than about 3 nanoseconds to dismiss it as a load of rubbish.
Its funny that you bring up the Kids Dont fuck with God or bears will eat you message as humour! THAT IS EXACTLY THE MESSAGE THAT THE HUMAN BEINGS BEHIND THIS STORY WANTED TO CONVEY!!
You are obviously a smart guy, and from your messages you seem like a nice guy too. It is just incredibly strange to me that you cant see that this explanation is BY FAR the most plausible one, in fact of all the explanations offered it is THE ONLY plausible one. It is the only one that doesnt require magical beings, bears with attitude problems, bald-headed prophets with the ability to ask favours from those same magical beings etc. It is even stranger that based on the flawed assumption that omnipotent beings simply MUST be behind all this, that you would then seek to find something positive in what would be, if it actually happened, a horrendous occurrence. I mean be honest, how would you react if a Muslim started to tell you that 9/11 was a good thing because the people in the towers didnt love their God. Its loopy nonsense no matter which side it comes from!
What you speculate is in fact completely unthinkable, because the very fact that an omnipotent God is behind all this makes it that way. It then takes the leap into surreality when killing people becomes a good thing when God does it, and outright silliness when grown adults spend their Sundays discussing this stuff and trying to figure out ways that they can convince themselves that all this means that they are really good people and are going to heaven as a result.
Laters
P
Wed Nov 18, 01:15:00 PM 2009
agema-makedonin said...
If God has the plan for eternity, there is no reasonable concept to explain why he is bothering with this finit world, other than the concept Sadism.
All the cruelty that he allegedly did (I would rather argue that it is a product of sick human mind) is a moment in eternity, so why bother doing it, when he has the blue pring for such a alleged glorious eternety?
He should kill us all (he already about to do this and plans to do it again), create other pupets as he did, grant them no free will, and play with them eternally. All should worship him, and he will never have the need to be jaelous again (Exodus 34:14).
That all ofcourse, if he is a omnipotent.
Biblical God is only a evolving concept of God that served various needs of sadistic nomad people of Izrael, that is all there it is to it.
Mon Sep 06, 08:44:00 AM 2010
Brucker said...
Coming back and reading this now nearly two years after the fact, Paul makes a statement in his last comment that in some ways cuts right to the heart of the matter, but in other ways misses the point. Paul writes:
"If we remove the assumption (because it is an assumption that you even make yourself in your message!) that the Bible is the word of God, then BINGO all the difficulties disappear."
The way in which this misses the point has a lot to do with the raison d'être of this very blog. When you get down to it, Steve Wells certainly doesn't believe that the Bible is the word of God, so why does he bother? For him, and of course many other Bible skeptics, studying the Bible has value because he knows that somewhere around one-third of the world's population *does* believe this, and if you want to deal with such people, it can sometimes be useful to meet them on their own territory, so to speak.
With that thought in place, the next thing that is vital in understanding the Bible from the point of view of a believer is that you have to more or less pretend for the sake of argument that God exists, and in some way has inspired this set of books to be written. I briefly mentioned that fact at the beginning of my own blog, because in understanding what the writers of these books are getting at, you have to at least accept that they intended their writings to be taken that way.
If you click that link, you'll see that I drew a parallel to science fiction. If you watch the movie The Terminator and say, "Well, this is stupid; there's no such thing as cyborgs and time travel!" you're missing the point that within the (fictional) world Sarah Connor lives, they do exist. You may consider the Bible fiction, but you won't understand it unless you take it on its own terms.
Sun Oct 23, 05:33:00 PM 2011
LanceThruster said...
God should have instantly grown some kick-ass hair on Elisha's head, and had the hair of the mouthy kids fall out (or turn to snakes that bite them or something).
Seems like this God character is not very good at "poetic justice."
Wed Nov 21, 02:17:00 PM 2012
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
No comments:
Post a Comment