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30 April 2010David killed every male in Edom
There’s not a lot to go on here, just a few contradictory verses from four different books.
There’s a one-verse story from 2 Samuel saying that David got a name for himself by killing 18,000 Syrians in the valley of salt.
David gat him a name when he returned from smiting of the Syrians in the valley of salt, being eighteen thousand men. 2 Samuel 8.13
Then there’s a (sort of) similar verse from 1 Chronicles that agrees with 2 Samuel on the number killed (18,000) and the site of the killing (the valley of salt), but disagrees about the identities of the killer (Abishai vs. David) and the people killed (Syrians vs. Edomites).
Abishai … slew of the Edomites in the valley of salt eighteen thousand. 1 Chronicles 18.12
And there’s a Psalm story that says it was Joab who killed 12,000 in the valley of salt with the candlestick (or was it the lead pipe?).
Joab returned, and smote of Edom in the valley of salt twelve thousand. Psalm 60.1
In any case, whoever did the killing, whoever and however many were killed, it’s another example of God’s glorious killings, since we know that
The LORD preserved David whithersoever he went. 2 Samuel 8.14
And God approved of everything David ever did (with the single exception of the matter of Uriah).
David did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, and turned not aside from any thing that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite. 1 Kings 15.5
There’s something else we are told about this killing. After the 18,000 (or 12,000) Edomites (or Syrians) were killed in the valley of salt by David (or Abishai or Joab), Joab killed every male in Edom.
When David was in Edom, and Joab the captain of the host was gone up to bury the slain, after he had smitten every male in Edom; (For six months did Joab remain there with all Israel, until he had cut off every male in Edom:) 1 Kings 11.15-16
(A little later God will have to have them all killed again, but that’s another story.)
So how many were killed in this killing? 18,000 or 12,000 in the valley of salt? And how many males were killed in Edom in Joab’s male genocide?
I’ll take 15,000 (the average of 12,000 and 18,000) for the number of Edomite (or Syrian) soldiers that were killed, and guess that 50,000 males of all ages were slaughtered, for a total of 65,000 in all.
God's next killing: Thus did David unto all the children of Ammon
Posted by Steve Wells at 4/30/2010 09:11:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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7 comments:
busterggi said...
As the bible was written before the Crisis on Infinite Earths it is clear that that some of these happened on parallel worlds.
Fri Apr 30, 05:10:00 PM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
With parallel Gods? Surely, ol' Yahweh wouldn't agree to that...
Fri Apr 30, 10:24:00 PM 2010
busterggi said...
Yahweh wouldn't agree but the Elohim outvoted him.
Sat May 01, 04:23:00 AM 2010
skanksta said...
No, too few !
We have to assume that the bible is inerrant. What may appear like contradictions or inaccuracies to us, CAN'T be actual errors - since god is perfect. How can we understand, what it's like to be the creator of a universe and all life ? You may as well ask an ant to make judgements on human morality.
Therefore...
If it says David AND Abishai AND Joab killed 18k,18k,12k (respectively) in the Valley of Salt - then that's what they did.
TOTAL 48,000
It then says Joab killed every male, so that's what Joab did.
This is more guesswork, but I disagree with your 10k/40k ratio. Most men would be considered of fighting age, only the very young and old wouldn't be imo. So..I go for a ratio of 1/2 - thinking each fighting man would have an average of two boys, (or maybe an old father).
That means a better estimate is 150k.
Sat May 01, 05:09:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
I like the way you're thinking, skanksta. But I think my interpretation is more likely: it's the same story, just the names, numbers, and nationality of the victims changed from one telling to the other.
I wonder what believers say about this one!
Sat May 01, 07:58:00 AM 2010
twillight said...
I think a talmudist would agree with skanksta, after what I've read about Solomon's 160,000,000 horses...
Sat May 01, 05:07:00 PM 2010
MD1985 said...
TNIV : 13 And David became famous after he returned from striking down eighteen thousand Edomites in the Valley of Salt.
It should be Edomites - early translations translated it wrong as Aram-Syria and Edom are almost identical in the Hebrew script.
Resh - ר
Dalet - ד
One letter changes everything :)
Also Joab and Abishai are David's newphews. Joab was the general of one of David's armies and it is likely Abishai served under him - They both served under David - hence it being attributed to him in 2 Samuel.
They are not contradictions.
Mon May 03, 09:38:00 PM 2010
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29 April 2010Bible Quiz Show
The 700 / 7000 horsemen thing in my last post reminded me of this fun NonStampCollector video.
Here are links to the contradictions mentioned in the video.
How long does God's anger last?
Does Yahweh tempt people?
Is salvation by faith alone?
Can God be seen?
Does Yahweh delight in burnt offerings?
Is God the author of evil?
According to Genesis, were humans created before the animals?
On the road to Damascus, did Paul's traveling companions hear the voice that spoke to Paul?
Will the earth last forever?
Is Jesus the only man to have ascended into heaven?
In Old Testament Law, were children to be punished for the sins of their fathers?
Does God ever get tired?
How many valiant men drew the sword for Israel as counted by Joab?
How many horsemen did David take ?
How much did David pay for the threshing floor?
How many men did the chief of David's captains kill?
When are two thieves one thief?
How many blind men did Jesus heal near Jericho?
How many women came to the tomb?
Whom did the women see at the tomb?
Are riches a curse or a blessing?
Did the temple curtain rip before or after Jesus died?
Who put the gorgeous purple robe on Jesus, Herod's soldiers or Pilate's soldiers?
Did Jesus curse the fig tree before or after driving the merchants from the temple?
Should homosexuals be killed or exiled?
Given that Quirinius became governor of Syria nine years after king Herod's death, was Jesus born during the reign of King Herod or the governorship of Quirinius?
When the women arrived at the tomb of Jesus, was the tomb opened or closed?
Did Judas die by hanging himself or by falling over in a field and having his guts fall out?
Is God the author of confusion?
And the crimes punishable by death in the Bible:
Fortune telling (Leviticus 20:27)
Hitting a parent (Exodus 21:15)
Cursing a parent (Leviticus 20:9)
Not listening to a priest (Deuteronomy 17:12)
Following another religion (Exodus 22:20)
Adultery (Leviticus 20:10)
Not seeking the Lord God of Israel (2 Chronicles 15:12-13)
Fornication (Leviticus 21:9)
Prophesying falsely (Zechariah 13:3)
Who has to kill a false prophet? (Zechariah 13:3)
Homosexuality (Leviticus 20:13)
Blasphemy (Leviticus 24:10-16)
Working on the Sabbath (Exodus 31:12-15)
Having a few people in your town worshiping another god (Deuteronomy 13:13-16)
Posted by Steve Wells at 4/29/2010 11:09:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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10 comments:
twillight said...
"That means 10 points for everyone ... including me."
Thu Apr 29, 03:09:00 PM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
I noticed that, at the end of the video, the author of the video credits your site with all the content; is that why you posted it, or just because it was amusing and consise? ;-)
Either way, I've got a smile on my face, now...
Thu Apr 29, 04:53:00 PM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Matthew: Well, I appreciated the credit at the end. I've worked 20 years on the SAB; it's good to see that it's used now and then.
But that's not why I posted it. I posted it because I thought it was well done.
Thu Apr 29, 05:51:00 PM 2010
MD1985 said...
Of course you will notice that the list at the end of the blog of crimes punishable by death are all old covenant laws and the only one that is new convenant is to love The Lord - in which case the punishment of "death" is referring to not inheriting eternal life.
Hence - Jesus Christ. You know... the "saviour" of the world.
Also re: Contradictions in video...Context is a wonderul thing :)
Fri Apr 30, 12:35:00 AM 2010
fyodor said...
So how doyou address all the contradictions given that people will defend it to "death" how all these contradictions have meanings which if we are patient enough we shall understand in time to come?
Fri Apr 30, 07:15:00 AM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
I've worked 20 years on the SAB; it's good to see that it's used now and then.
Really? Holy crap, that's longer than I've lived! :-O
Fri Apr 30, 10:18:00 PM 2010
skanksta said...
20 years well spent - now back to work !
Sat May 01, 05:32:00 AM 2010
3D said...
MD1985 said...
"Of course you will notice that the list at the end of the blog of crimes punishable by death are all old covenant laws and the only one that is new convenant is to love The Lord - in which case the punishment of "death" is referring to not inheriting eternal life.
Hence - Jesus Christ. You know... the "saviour" of the world."
Wow, it must be tiring for people to scour any corner of the Internet looking for people denigrating the Bible, then try to find ways to "support" a God who used to love killing and bloodshed for 3,500 years and then suddenly decided to stop =)
Sat May 01, 04:14:00 PM 2010
Person0123452 said...
@MD1985
1. Try reading the description. He has looked into the quotes. Simply saying "context" is a stupid cop-out. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK7P7uZFf5o&feature=related
Something I've been wondering. you say now that jesus came we don't have to follow the old laws, however in romans 3 it seems to talk about how whilst faith is all that is required, you should still stick to the law.
Eg:
22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
...
31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Also, could you tell me where jesus said the old laws are abolished? I don't know all the bible of course, but if it does say that then I believe there is another contradiction. Because in Matthew 5 he says:
17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Sun May 02, 12:43:00 AM 2010
MD1985 said...
Person 0123452:
I don’t believe we should sin recklessly becuase we believe Jesus died on the cross and therefore we are forgiven – *I* think if people live that way they do not have a correct or accurate understanding of Grace. *I* do believe our salvation is no longer dependant on our obedience to the law. But in saying that, when Jesus ascended to Heaven He left with us a ‘comforter’ or ‘helper’ in the Holy Spirit. When the Holy Spirit is in us (once we make a decision for Christ) He will guide us in the ways of righteousness as the laws are now no longer written on tablets of stone but on our hearts (Romans 2:14 – 15) – therefore in being led we know right from wrong and in our actions we become ChristLIKE (not Christ).
Romans 3:22 in my understanding is saying that if we have a genuine reliance on Jesus Christ and His sacrifice it will lead us to salvation
Romans 3:23 in my understanding is saying that God has a standard – the old covenant illustrates this standard. Man could not meet this standard and so would make animal sacrifices. Just as we cannot meet that standard now – so Jesus made that sacrifice for us.
Which leads to Matthew 5:17 : I believe Jesus DID fulfil the law – Once a year under the old law the High priest would enter the Holy of Holies and the sins of all people would be put on to the head of a lamb or goat etc and that animal would be sacrificed. But then Heb 9:11 – 14 says
When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here,[b] he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. 12He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. 13The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,[c] so that we may serve the living God!
Therefore he fulfilled the old law (blood sacrifice) once and for all when He offered Himself unblemished (without sin) to redeem mankind.
Re : Romans 3:31 – The law has not been made invalid - Christ perfectly and completely obeyed the law for us then offered Himself as a penalty for all our lawbreaking (sin) – therefore God’s standards are eternally valid – completely established through Christ.
Mon May 03, 08:43:00 PM 2010
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28 April 2010The Lord gave David victory wherever he went
As I mentioned in the last killing, God approved all of David’s killings (except for the matter of Uriah).
David did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, and turned not aside from any thing that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite. 1 Kings 15:5
He even helped out with most of them. Still, some of the ones from 2 Samuel 8-10 are just too damned boring to deal with separately, so I’m going to lump them together here.
2 Samuel 8 begins by telling us that David somehow found some more Philistines to smite.
It came to pass that David smote the Philistines, and subdued them. 2 Samuel 8:1
Then David smote Hadadezer, the king of Zobah, "taking" 1000 chariots, 700 (or 7000, if you believe the story told in 1 Chronicles 18:3-4) horsemen, and 20,000 foot soldiers. [Since text doesn't say that David killed the 20,700 (or 27,000) soldiers, I’n not counting them in God's killings.]
David smote also Hadadezer ... king of Zobah ... And David took from him a thousand chariots, and seven hundred horsemen, and twenty thousand footmen. 2 Samuel 8:3-4a
David smote Hadarezer king of Zobah ... And David took from him a thousand chariots, and seven thousand horsemen, and twenty thousand footmen. 1 Chronicles 18:3-4
David hamstrung ("houghed" in the KJV) all but 100 of the 1000 horses.
David houghed all the chariot horses, but reserved of them for an hundred chariots. 2 Samuel 8:4b
Then he killed 22,000 Syrians. “And the Lord gave David victory wherever he went.” (NIV)
When the Syrians of Damascus came to succour Hadadezer king of Zobah, David slew of the Syrians two and twenty thousand men … and the Syrians became servants to David, and brought gifts. … And the LORD preserved David whithersoever he went. 2 Samuel 8.5-6
And another 47,000 Syrians (or was it 40,700?).
The Syrians fled before Israel; and David slew the men of seven hundred chariots of the Syrians, and forty thousand horsemen. 2 Samuel 10.18
But the Syrians fled before Israel; and David slew of the Syrians seven thousand men which fought in chariots, and forty thousand footmen. 1 Chronicles 19.8
So I'll give David (and God) credit for 66,850: 1000 Philistines and 65,850 Syrians. (22,000 in the first killing and 43,850 in the second, taking the average of 47,000 and 40,070 from the stories in 2 Samuel 10 and 1 Chronicles 19.
God's next killing: David killed every male in Edom
Posted by Steve Wells at 4/28/2010 04:49:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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3 comments:
busterggi said...
What was the purpose of that commandment - "Thou shalt not kill" ?
Should it have been - "Thou shalt not kill, just kidding, go ahead & commit genocide"?
Thu Apr 29, 06:36:00 AM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
Good ol' God probably meant, "Thou shalt not kill... except to honour ME!!! Hee-hee-hee!"
As an aside, what is it with the crappy computations in the Bible? A child could understand the difference between seven hundred and seven thousand!
Thu Apr 29, 04:33:00 PM 2010
Brucker said...
Actually, there is of course a lot of debate over what exactly the term "kill" means in that commandment. For instance, it clearly does not apply to animals. Generally, the way I've heard it often explained is that it would best be interpreted as "murder", which means the killing of persons for personal reasons. Under this definition, killing during wartime doesn't count.
Now the really interesting thing that I came here to share, albeit a bit belatedly, is that particualrly among Jews, there is a lot of debate as to what it was exactly that was bad about David's actions towards Uriah. Some actually believe that David was guilty of neither murder nor adultery, but only of handling the matter in a manner that made it look morally questionable, believe it or not.
Here's the argument, some of which actually holds some water, believe it or not: It is common for Jews to get divorces before going off to war, just in case their bodies cannot be brought back from the battlefield. If there is no body to prove the husband is dead, the wife is still considered married. Therefore, Bathsheba was not likely to be legally married when she slept with David, and therefore, it was not *technically* adultery. As for Uriah, In 2Sam11:11, he refers to Joab as "My Lord", therefore hinting that there was an insurrection of some sort. Uriah was killed for treason as a warning to Joab.
I'm not saying I believe this, I just find it an interesting theory.
Tue May 04, 03:41:00 PM 2010
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50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
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God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
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The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
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Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
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28 April 2010David killed Rechab and Baanah, cut off their hands and feet, and hung their bodies over the pool
After Saul’s death, David became king of Judah and Saul’s son, Ishbosheth, king of Israel. Things didn’t go well for poor Ishbosheth, though. First his father and brothers were killed by God. Then his captain, Abner, was killed by David’s captain, Joel. And his army was always fighting a losing battle with David’s. He was about ready to call it quits.
When Saul's son heard that Abner was dead in Hebron, his hands were feeble, and all the Israelites were troubled. 2 Samuel 4.1
After Abner died, Rechab and Baanah became Ishbosheth’s captains.
Saul's son had two men that were captains of bands: the name of the one was Baanah, and the name of the other Rechab. 4.2
One day Rechab and Baanah went to visit Ishbosheth, who was taking a nap at the time.
Rechab and Baanah, went, and came about the heat of the day to the house of Ishbosheth, who lay on a bed at noon. 4.5
They pretended to be picking up some wheat, but they really stopped by to kill him. And they “smote him under the fifth rib” (the preferred place to smite someone in the Bible).
They came thither into the midst of the house, as though they would have fetched wheat; and they smote him under the fifth rib. 4.6
After smiting him, they cut off his head and took it to David.
When they came into the house, he lay on his bed in his bedchamber, and they smote him, and slew him, and beheaded him, and took his head. And they brought the head of Ishbosheth unto David. 4.7-8
They figured David would be pleased, since he and Ishbosheth were enemies. But they were wrong.
David told them about how he killed the Amalekite who killed Saul, even though Saul asked him to since he was mortally wounded. Now he was going to kill them for killing Saul’s son, Ishbosheth.
When one told me, saying, Behold, Saul is dead, thinking to have brought good tidings, I took hold of him, and slew him … How much more, when wicked men have slain a righteous person in his own house upon his bed? 4.10-11
So David had his “young men” kill Rechab and Baanah, cut off their hands and feet, and hang their bodies up over the pool in Hebron.
David commanded his young men, and they slew them, and cut off their hands and their feet, and hanged them up over the pool in Hebron. 4.12
Mutilated bodies hanging over pools make such nice decorations!
(We know that God approved of this killing because God approved of all of David’s killings, with the single exception of the matter of Uriah. See 1 Kings 15.5.)
God's next killing: God helps David smite the Philistines from the front and the rear
Posted by Steve Wells at 4/28/2010 09:26:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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4 comments:
twillight said...
This is very close to, what you can find at "Girls Eater"...
Thu Apr 29, 01:17:00 AM 2010
busterggi said...
That's worse than adding flouride to the water!
Thu Apr 29, 06:38:00 AM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
Poor Ishbosheth; he's got both the worst lot and the worst name in the Bible...
Also, David? Really? Hanging corpses over the swimming pool is not a turn-on for your lady, despite what "God" might have "told" you.
Thu Apr 29, 04:19:00 PM 2010
nazani said...
There's a lot of this sort of this thing in Assyrian art. Dining near heads on pikes, piles of severed hands, etc. It makes me wonder if the Israelites borrowed some of this mayhem to macho up their David legends. Could be part of a psyops ploy to deter others from attacking them.
Ever notice how the Vlad Tepes/Dracula legends incorporate many bits from both David and Christ stories?
Fri Apr 30, 06:09:00 AM 2010
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27 April 2010Abraham's war to rescue Lot
Here's one that I forgot to add to God's list.
It's about two of God's favorite people: Abraham and Lot.
God gave Abraham (God called him "Abram" back then) pretty much everything on earth, as far as he could see.
The LORD said unto Abram … Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward … All the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. Genesis 13:14-15
Lot had lots of stuff, too – too much stuff, in fact, to keep it all separate from Abraham’s.
Lot … had flocks, and herds, and tents. And the land was not able to bear them, that they might dwell together: for their substance was great, so that they could not dwell together. Genesis 13:5-6
So Lot decided to move to Sodom.
Abram dwelled in the land of Canaan, and Lot dwelled in … Sodom. Genesis 13:12
Soon after Lot got settled in Sodom, a war broke out between the kingdoms of Sodom and Gomorrah and some of the other local kingdoms. The Sodomites were defeated and Lot was taken prisoner.
They took Lot, Abram's brother's son, who dwelt in Sodom, and his goods, and departed. Genesis 14:12
That’s when Abraham got involved. He and 318 of his slaves took off after the anti-Sodomites.
And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan. Genesis 14:14
And they “smote” the heck out of them, chasing them all the way to Damascus.
He and his servants … smote them, and pursued them unto Hobah, which is on the left hand of Damascus. Genesis 14:15
Abraham brought back Lot, the women, and the Sodomite stuff.
And he brought back all the goods, and also brought again his brother Lot, and his goods, and the women also, and the people. Genesis 14:16
When Abraham returned “from the slaughter,” the king of Sodom went out to greet him, along with Melchizedek, “the priest of the most high God,” who brought some bread and wine.
The king of Sodom went out to meet him after his return from the slaughter … And Melchizedek … brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God. Genesis 14:17-18
(Melchizedek, by the way, had no father or mother, no beginning or end, just like the Son of God.)
Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God. Hebrews 7:3
And Melchizedek thanked God for helping Abraham slaughter the anti-Sodomites.
Blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. Genesis 14:20a
Then Abraham gave Melchizedek a tenth of all the stuff he got in the slaughter.
And he gave him tithes of all. Genesis 14:20b
A nice fee for such a puny prayer.
(I gave this the usual 1000 for a regular God-assisted slaughter.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
God's next killing: Sodom and Gomorrah
Posted by Steve Wells at 4/27/2010 08:52:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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6 comments:
busterggi said...
Where to begin on the idiocy of the bible on this?
Lot is a supposed to be a shepherd with huge flocks - since when do huge flocks of sheep graze in cities?
Abram was given all the land by Yahweh - wouldn't that put Abram in charge of Sodom & make him responsible for what was happening on his property?
...
Tue Apr 27, 03:22:00 PM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
Somehow, I doubt the residents of Sodom would take kindly to Abram claiming that God gave him possession of all of their land...
Tue Apr 27, 06:09:00 PM 2010
skanksta said...
Wow - the bible is awesome.
How many more have been missed out ?!
Tue Apr 27, 06:52:00 PM 2010
ernesto said...
So god sent Abraham to slaughter the anti-sodomites?
Now that's what I call irony.
Tue Apr 27, 10:37:00 PM 2010
Tommy said...
I fail to see the part where "God told Abram" to do anything in this story. Maybe I'm just blind, but when I read the story I see a man who mounts a rescue mission for his brother, ends up saving a city in the process and refuses to accept any payment for the deed because he had sworn to his God that he wouldn't take anything from them. What I don't see is the part where God told Abram to do any of it.
Unless of course the mere fact of it being in the Bible means that God must be behind it. If that's the case, where's the murder of Abel?
Do you even realize that you're commenting on a text that is thousands of years old? Written in a culture totally different than ours and by some man who was himself in a culture probably removed from the actual events by thousands of years and relying on stories passed by word of mouth for generations? Of course the stories in Genesis are filled with anachronisms and facts that are just plain wrong. It would be (and is) ridiculous to claim otherwise!
You know, there is room for doubt and uncertainty and tough questions in the Christian faith. Many Christians would try to claim otherwise, but they're just building a house of cards. The existentialist within me refuses to simply sell my mind to a prescribed set of beliefs and practices blasted into my head from the time I was born.
Please recognize that its possible to have faith without giving up independent thought.
Mon May 02, 11:17:00 PM 2011
Steve Wells said...
Tommy,
I fail to see the part where "God told Abram" to do anything in this story.
The evidence is circumstantial, but still, I think, conclusive.
The story doesn't say that God told Abraham to fight the anti-Sodomites. But it does say that God delivered them into Abraham's hand.
"Blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand." Genesis 14:20.
Do you even realize that you're commenting on a text that is thousands of years old? Written in a culture totally different than ours and by some man who was himself in a culture probably removed from the actual events by thousands of years and relying on stories passed by word of mouth for generations? Of course the stories in Genesis are filled with anachronisms and facts that are just plain wrong. It would be (and is) ridiculous to claim otherwise!
Yes, I am aware of these things. That's why I don't believe in the Bible (among many other reasons). What is your excuse for believing in it, Tommy?
Tue May 03, 12:31:00 PM 2011
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22 April 2010David killed two-thirds of the Moabite POWs and enslaved the rest
How should we treat prisoners of war? Fortunately, as with so many difficult questions, the Bible has the answer!
Bible believers don't need to worry about the Geneva Convention. God tells them directly what to do with their POWs in the Bible. All they have to do is follow David's example.
David ... smote Moab, and measured them with a line, casting them down to the ground; even with two lines measured he to put to death, and with one full line to keep alive. And so the Moabites became David's servants, and brought gifts. 2 Samuel 8:1-2
When it comes to POWS, we know what is right in the eyes of the Lord: kill two-thirds of them and enslave the rest.*
That is the Bible's infallible answer.
(My estimate of 667 is two thirds of the standard Biblical slaughter.)
* How do we know this is right in the eyes of the Lord? Because the Bible tells us so.
David did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, and turned not aside from any thing that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite. 1 Kings 15.5
God's next killing The Lord gave David victory wherever he went
Posted by Steve Wells at 4/22/2010 03:33:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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Matthew Blanchette said...
Why is it always two-thirds? Is that God's magic number, or something?
Thu Apr 22, 06:48:00 PM 2010
busterggi said...
You know, if the enemies of the Hebrews had been as genocidal as the Hebrews the latter would have been exterminated long before the Babylonian captivity.
Praise be to El & Marduk for their generous natures!
Sat Apr 24, 08:15:00 AM 2010
skanksta said...
Steve, what about - for your next project - all the times in the bible where god is stupid, lame, NON-omnipotent and so on ?
I remember one piece you had where god had to have something explained to him by Moses and another where he couldn't kill some people from the plains, "because they had iron chariots," lol !
How stupid is god, maybe ? or how powerful ?
Mon Apr 26, 05:18:00 AM 2010
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04/20/2010
Anti-Gay Leviticus Sign is Free Speech, Says Casper, Wyoming
By Andy Towle
Leviticus
The city can't force Casper, Wyoming homeowner Chris Trumbull to remove a sign painted on his fence that reads "LEVITICUS 20:13 - TO BE GAY = DEATH" despite the fact that 100 students walk by it each day on their way to and from school, the Tribune reports:
"Emily Tews, a 17-year-old student at Roosevelt, said she has gay friends and was disappointed in the sign -- especially its prominence on K Street -- but related it to a lesson in her history class. 'It's a form of protesting -- visual protesting,' she said. 'There's nothing you can do about it.' Marty Wood, safe schools coordinator for the Natrona County School District, said the sign is a cause for concern, but he doubted the district could act against the owner. City Code Enforcement Supervisor Shelley LeClere said Trumbull owns the fence and painted the sign. Trumbull was asked to remove his message, but he declined. Beyond asking, LeClere said, there was nothing the city could do. Trumbull's message, whether appropriate or not, is protected speech."
Says Trumbull: "I'm not doing it to be spiteful. Gay people are bashing themselves. My fence seems like the proper setting [to express an opinion]."
You may recall that Casper is the town where, for years, Fred Phelps of the Westboro Baptist Church has been lobbying to erect a "Matthew Shepard in Hell" monument.
Posted Apr 20, 2010 at 12:09 PM EST by Andy Towle in News, Wyoming | Permalink
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Comments
Looks like the perfect canvas for some enterprising graffiti artists...
Posted by: Alexander | Apr 20, 2010 12:17:41 PM
I bet if it were an ethnic or racial slur they wouldn't be politely asking him to remove it. This is passive-aggressive homophobia on the part of the city. They did just enough to cover their asses.
Posted by: Mark | Apr 20, 2010 12:18:29 PM
Today in Breaking News: Redneck Is Homophobic.
Seriously, if anyone in that town had any decency, they'd put up a competing "God Loves Everyone" sign or something.
Posted by: Feral | Apr 20, 2010 12:19:28 PM
Trumbull's comment, "My fence seems like the proper setting..." is particularly unsettling when you consider the fate of Matthew Shepard on a fence in Wyoming, whether intentional or unintentional.
Posted by: Erik | Apr 20, 2010 12:23:07 PM
Equally crazy shit from the bible
1. “If a man strikes his servant or his maid with a rod, and he dies under his hand, he shall surely be punished. Notwithstanding, if he gets up after a day or two, he shall not be punished, for he is his property."
2. “You shall not boil a young goat in its mother’s milk."
3. "You shall not oppress an alien (foreigner), for you know the heart of an alien"
4. "You shall give the firstborn of your sons to me. You shall do likewise with your cattle and with your sheep. Seven days it shall be with its mother, then on the eighth day you shall give it to me."
5. "If you make me an altar of stone, you shall not build it of cut stones; for if you lift up your tool on it, you have polluted it. Neither shall you go up by steps to my altar, that your nakedness may not be exposed to it."
Posted by: Ryan Ward | Apr 20, 2010 12:23:55 PM
Sadly Trumbull does have the right to be a homophobe, but the good people of Casper, and their friends also have a right to follow him where ever he goes, to call his place of work, and make his life hell.
Posted by: patrick nyc | Apr 20, 2010 12:24:52 PM
I hope someone paints, "To be Christian = Death," on their fence in Casper.
And on another fence:
"People with blue eyes deserve death."
All 3 are equal forms of free speech, and should treated and considered completely equally.
Posted by: pro-fair | Apr 20, 2010 12:29:40 PM
If it was an anti-Christian sign, I doubt the citizens of Casper would be leaping to make the free speech defence.
BTW By 'anti-christian' I don't mean one that goes as far as saying Christians deserve death - just one that calls them bigots.
Posted by: robert | Apr 20, 2010 12:32:22 PM
The sad thing is that what Ms. Tews got out of her history class is "There's nothing you can do about it." There's plenty one can do about it, a few things are even legal. The appropriate response to free speech aimed at lessening the freedom of others is speech, forceful, impassioned speech. Giving up is not an option.
Posted by: Jonathan | Apr 20, 2010 12:34:55 PM
If that sign said "Niggers Get Out" or "Jews Burn in Hell", we'd be seeing national coverage from every major outlet. But since it's just about "them funny ol' queers", not a whisper.
(Except from you Andy! You're great!)
Posted by: Alexander | Apr 20, 2010 12:35:13 PM
Christopher S Trumbull
1042 N Kimball St
Casper, WY 82601-1254
Posted by: Send him a letter | Apr 20, 2010 12:35:25 PM
Upcoming: Gay/Lesbian beaten to death in Casper, Wyoming. Killer references sign. Massive civil lawsuit against property owner by victim's family.
Posted by: Windy | Apr 20, 2010 12:38:12 PM
Christopher S Trumbull
1042 N Kimball St
Casper, WY 82601
(307) 265-8321
Posted by: Call Him | Apr 20, 2010 12:40:51 PM
always amused by the tools who say "I aint bein spiteful eu nuthin"
Posted by: Rikard | Apr 20, 2010 12:41:04 PM
I think it's also free speech for dozens of gays, lesbians, and their allies to have a kiss in front of Mr. Trumbull's house everyday. See how he'll like that. Or better yet, a bunch of drag queens!
Posted by: Jeff | Apr 20, 2010 12:42:50 PM
Or, you know, someone could by chance walk by with a bucket of paint, and completely incidentally trip over, you know, something, then entirely unwillingly drop the bucket in the air and realize they forgot the lid and the bucket would unfortunately splash against the fence.
You know, I'm just saying.
Posted by: James | Apr 20, 2010 12:43:16 PM
A bucket of artfully-thrown paint would solve this poblem.
Posted by: David Ehrenstein | Apr 20, 2010 12:44:07 PM
Brilliant posting his address and #!
It is a free speech issue, however, it's never about free speech when it's against them.
Posted by: Derek Washington | Apr 20, 2010 12:44:28 PM
No surprises here...
YET ANOTHER True Christian® profession of Love brought to you by the "Mensa State" of Wyoming - the same state that brought you Dick Cheney, and finally found a way to shut up that naughty Matthew Sheppard once and for all.
GO WYOMING - "State Of Intolerance"!
Posted by: Justin N | Apr 20, 2010 12:58:32 PM
he should also include the passage in Leviticus that says you can be put to death for wearing blended fabrics. Or how about the one where you can't eat shell fish, for that is also an abomination...
Posted by: d | Apr 20, 2010 1:00:50 PM
When I read that sign, here's the message I get:
I'M TERRIFIED AT THE THOUGHT THAT PEOPLE IN THIS TOWN MIGHT FIGURE OUT THAT I AM A HOMOSEXUAL.
Sorry Mr. Trumbull. Cat was out of the bag when you painted the first letter.
Posted by: sparks | Apr 20, 2010 1:02:05 PM
Where is a Banksy when you need one?
Posted by: Rafael | Apr 20, 2010 1:07:50 PM
Unfortunately the right to free speech does not come along with a high IQ.
Posted by: Arturo Beeche | Apr 20, 2010 1:09:07 PM
I put in his name and contact info on my facebook, along with a photo of his beautiful fence. Let's get some free speech going.
Posted by: Zlick | Apr 20, 2010 1:13:21 PM
Come on, gays of Casper. The town won't protect you - so time to get a little creative with some spray paint of your own. I'm sure you can come up with some choice images for Mr. Trumbull.
Posted by: niles | Apr 20, 2010 1:14:00 PM
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22 April 2010What the Bible says about the Tea Party Movement
The Lord knoweth how to ... reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: But chiefly them that ... despise government.
These ... speak evil of the things that they understand not.
They ... count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings.
Beguiling unstable souls ... cursed children. 2 Peter 2:9-14
But then, some people interpret this passage differently.
Posted by Steve Wells at 4/22/2010 10:10:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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9 comments:
galletta61 said...
A genuine Christian populace will reject collectivism and centralized government. A morally debauched populace will look to the government to support them and shelter them from their bad moral choices. Thus for the collectivist Liberal bent on imposing socialism upon a nation, Christianity is the number one enemy above all other enemies. Christianity must be eliminated.
Despite decades of spectacular failure in nation after nation, the Liberal clings to his collectivist dream because it is far more than a theory of government. It is a religion.
Thu Apr 22, 10:32:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Gosh, galletta61. It sounds like you despise government. Oh well, the Lord knows what to do with you.
Thu Apr 22, 10:37:00 AM 2010
Buffy said...
galletta,
Jesus was a socialist.
Thu Apr 22, 01:09:00 PM 2010
twillight said...
@Buffy
Jesus wasn't socialist.
That'd supporting the Roman Government, what he only tolerated.
That'd supporting individualism outside the field of the Government, but he demanded blind obedience to him, or any people in higher rank then you.
Jesus was a jewish leader, advocating segregation and blind faith. Of course he was a little of reformer too with discouraging ethnicism, but that's another matter.
He wanned to give up all your "earthly possetion", while socialism would work to rise everyone's living standards.
All in all: Jesus was NOT a socialist, and even the apostles (in the book of the apostles) were communists, not socialists.
Thu Apr 22, 02:49:00 PM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
Not only was Jesus NOT a socialist, he also never existed: http://jesuspuzzle.humanists.net/home.htm
Check out the link: It's damned mind-blowing.
Thu Apr 22, 06:44:00 PM 2010
Brucker said...
That's not a picture of a teabagger, I'm pretty sure. I imagine many of the teabaggers are homophobic, but it's not really their issue.
Good post, anyway. This liberal Christian says, "Hear, hear!"
Tue Apr 27, 11:30:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Brucker,
Yeah, that's no teabagger. I think she's on of Fred Phelp's kids, what with the "God Hates Fags" sign and all.
It's interesting that they interpret 2 Peter 2:12 as being anti-gay. I guess they believe "natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed" refers to homosexuals.
Wed Apr 28, 07:55:00 AM 2010
Brucker said...
I get the feeling the Phelps crew would be happy replacing the whole Bible with a "GOD HATES FAGS" sign.
Wed Apr 28, 04:10:00 PM 2010
Tim said...
She's wearing shorts.
Deuteronomy 22:5 "The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God."
Matt 7:5 "Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."
Job 13:7,16 "Will ye speak wickedly for God? ... an hypocrite shall not come before him."
Job 27:8 "For what is the hope of the hypocrite, though he hath gained, when God taketh away his soul?"
And last but not least:
Proverbs 28:9 "He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination."
That's right, bitch, God hates your prayers.
Sun Apr 17, 07:41:00 AM 2011
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20 April 2010The Morality of David: How to do what is right in the eyes of the Lord
If believers want to know what God thinks is right, they should look at the life of David. He is the gold standard of biblical morality.
How do we know that that? Because it says so in the Bible.
Everything David did "was right in the eyes of the Lord," except for one thing: "the matter of Uriah."
David did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, and turned not aside from any thing that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite. 1 Kings 15.5
So as long as we stay away from the Uriah affair, we can be absolutely certain that we are doing right in the eyes of the Lord whenever we follow David.
And since there are so many stories about David in the Bible, we can derive an infallible, Bible-based morality from them. That is what God wants us to do. That's why he put those stories in the Bible.
So let's get started.
Here are some of the things that we know are "right in the eyes of the Lord."
It's OK to kill people.
As long as your killing is similar to one of David's, you can be sure that it's perfectly moral and that God will bless it.
But before you start, check the context of David's killings to make sure that yours is OK with God.
Here is a list of 22 killings that David either performed himself or had other people do for him. God approved of every one of them. He even helped out on many. It should be easy to find one to serve as a model for the killing that you have in mind.
David or Elhanan killed Goliath 1Sam 17.51, 2Sam 21.19
David killed 200 Philistines for their foreskins (to buy his first wife) 1Sam 18.27
David slew the Philistines with a great slaughter 1Sam 19.8
The Lord said to David, Go and smite the Philistines 1Sam 23:2-5
David committed genocides for the Philistines 1Sam 27.8-11
David spends the day killing Amalekites 1Sam 30:17
David killed the messenger 2Sam 1.15
David killed Rechab and Baanah, cut off their hands and feet, and hung their dead bodies over the pool 2Sam 4.12
God helps David smite Philistines from the front and the rear 2Sam 5:19-25
David killed 2/3 Moabite POWs and enslaved the rest 2Sam 8.2
David killed 22,000 Syrians 2Sam 8.5
David killed 18,000 Edomites in the Valley of Salt 2Sam 8.13, 1Kg 11.15-16, 1Chr 18.12
David killed 47,000 Syrians 2Sam 10.18, 1Chr 19.18
David's massacre of the Ammonites 2Sam 11.1, 1Chr 20.1
David's army killed 20,000 Israelites 2Sam 18.7
Adino killed 800 at one time with a spear 2Sam 23.8
Eleazar the son of Dodo smote the Philistines with a great slaughter 2Sam 23.9-10, 1Chr 11.12-14
Shammah slew the Philistines 2Sam 23.12
Abishai killed 300 with his spear 2Sam 23.18
Benaiah slew two lion-like men of Moah and a giant Egyptian 2Sam 23.20-21, 1Chr 11.22-23
Solomon carries out the deathbed wish of his father David by having Joab murdered 1Kg 2.29-34
Solomn has Shimei murdered (another of David's death bed wishes) 1Kg 2.44-46
It's OK to decapitate people after you kill them. (1 Samuel 17.51)
You can kill Philistines and Amalekites pretty much whenever you see them. Still, it's a good idea to ask God first. (1Sam 18.27, 19.8, 23:2-5, 30:17; 2Sam 5:19-25, 23.9-10, 23.12)
Moabites, Syrians, Edomites, Ammonites, and Egyptians are generally OK to kill, too. But some restrictions may apply. See your Bible for context, just to be sure. (2Sam 8.2, 8.5, 8.13, 10.18, 11.1)
It's OK to kill up to 200 men for their foreskins to pay for a wife. (1Sam 18.27)
You can have as many wives as you like. No one knows how many David had; no one needs to know how many you have either. (It's nobody's business but God's, and he approves of that sort of thing.) (1 Samuel 18:25-27, 25:39, 25:41-44, 2 Samuel 3:2-5, 5:13, 12:7-8)
Genocide is OK, at least when you are doing it for the Philistines. (1 Samuel 27:8-11)
It's OK to lie, if it will help you out of a difficult situation. (1 Samuel 21:2-8)
Cut off the hands and feet of executed people and hang their dead, mutilated bodies up for everyone to see. They make nice decorations. (2 Samuel 4:12)
Encourage others to kill people with disabilities -- like "the lame and the blind that are hated of David's soul." (2 Samuel 5:8)
A good rule to follow with prisoners of war is this: kill two-thirds of them and enslave the rest. (2 Samuel 8:2-3)
If your concubines have sex with your son in front of God and everybody (because God is punishing you for your adultery), just refuse to have any more sex with them and force them to "keep house" for you for the rest of their lives. (2 Samuel 20:3)
If God sends a famine, you might try killing the sons and grandsons of your predecessor and then hang their dead bodies up to God so that he will stop starving people to death. It worked for David. It should work for you too. (2 Samuel 21:1-9)
When you are old man and can't get any more heat, look around for a young virgin to "lie in your bosom" and "minister" to you so you can get your heat back. (1 Kings 1:1-4)
And when you are dying, be sure to ask your son to murder any enemies that you didn't get a chance to kill. No enemies left behind. That was David's rule; it should be yours, too. (1 Kings 2:1-9)
See how easy that was? It makes you feel sorry for all those atheists who have to actually think about what is right and wrong, doesn't it?
Posted by Steve Wells at 4/20/2010 11:25:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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4 comments:
Matthew Blanchette said...
Don't try to crack me up about atheism, Steve; I've gotten enough flack from my very Catholic parents about apparently "not having morals", now that I'm an atheist.
Hell, due to them, I even feel uncomfortable with the word, even though that's my personal convictions; can you imagine going through life cringing inwardly at your own personal convictions? :-(
Tue Apr 20, 10:41:00 PM 2010
busterggi said...
I just can't be as good as David - I don't have the bloodlust for it.
Wed Apr 21, 06:01:00 AM 2010
skanksta said...
I really feel for you blanchette. Maybe it works against you in the US that you have strict separation of church and state...
In UK everyone is pretty much forced to go to all kinds of church stuff at school, we have to do compulsory "religious studies", all state occasions are in churches etc. etc. - yet you rarely meet any open 'BELIEVErs' - you probably do, but it's THEM that keep quiet about it !
Strange ?
Wed Apr 21, 05:30:00 PM 2010
Danny Profit Jr. said...
You are making the same error that fundamentalists on the right make when they read the Bible. You are trying to read that verse in a strictly wooden literal sense that disregards the context and the intent in which the author composed it. Clearly David committed other wrongs besides Bathsheba. If you read 2nd Samuel 24, you would see this. The point of 1st Kings 15 is to contrast Abijah's rampant sinfulness as king of Judah against David's remarkable overall character when he was king.
In any event, my point is simply this: you must learn to read the Bible literally, that is, reading it in the sense in which it was intended. You would not read any other kind of literature the way that you are trying to read the Bible, now would you? I encourage you to learn to do the heavy lifting of reading the text in the sense in which it was intended, and if you do, you will avoid the kinds of conclusions that you come to in this post.
Sun Dec 04, 06:45:00 AM 2011
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God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
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14 April 2010God's Top 50 Killings
Here is the list that I put together based on your ratings. Thanks for your help!
(See here for a complete list and estimated total for all of God's killings in the Bible.)
More information about God's killings, with a chapter on each of the 135 killing events, can be found int the book:
Drunk With Blood: God's killings in the Bible
1 God killed every first born Egyptian child Ex 12:29-30
2 God sent two bears to rip apart 42 boys for making fun of a prophet's bald head 2Kg 2:23-24
3 God killed 14,700 for complaining about his killings Num 16:49
4 The Amalekite genocide 1Sam 15:2-3
5 God killed 70,000 because David had a census that he (or Satan) inspired him to have 2Sam 24:15, 1Chr 21:14
6 God slowly killed David's baby boy to punish David for adultery 2Sam 12:14-18
7 Jephthah sacrifices his daughter to God as a burned offering (to pay him back for helping him slaughter 20 cities) Jg 11:39
8 The Flood of Noah Gen 7:23
9 When the people complained, God burned them to death Num 11:1
10 Sodom and Gomorrah Gen 19:24
11 God killed 50,070 for looking into the ark of the Lord 1Sam 6:19
12 God and Satan kill Job's children in a bet Job 1:18-19
13 The opposing party is buried alive (with their families) Num 16:27
14 Jeroboam's son: God kills another child 1Kg 14:17
15 Elijah kills 450 religious leaders in a prayer contest 1Kg 18.22-40
16 God killed one million Ethiopians 2Chr 14:9-14
17 The Midianite Massacre: Have you saved the women alive? Num 31:1-35
18 Onan for spilling his seed Gen 38:10
19 The massacre of the peaceful, unsuspecting people Jg 18.27
20 Who is on the Lord's side? (Family and friends are forced to kill each other because of Aaron's golden calf) Ex 32:27-28
21 God made Jehoram's bowels fall out 2Chr 21:14-19
22 David killed 200 Philistines for their foreskins (to buy his first wife) 1Sam 18.27
23 Phinehas' double murder stops God's plague (after 14,000 were killed) Num 25:1-11
24 God burns Aaron's sons to death for offering him "strange fire" Lev 10:1-3
25 God sent snakes to bite people for complaining Num 21:6
26 God commands a blasphemer to be stoned to death Lev 24:10-23
27 God burned to death 102 men for asking Elijah to come down from his hill 2Kg 1:10-12
28 Herod was eaten by worms for not giving God the glory Acts 12:23
29 God sent a lion to kill a man for not smiting a prophet 1Kg 20:35-36
30 God smote them with hemorrhoids in their secret parts 1Sam 5:1-12
31 God sent lions to eat those that don't fear him enough 2Kg 17:25-26
32 An angel killed 185,000 sleeping soldiers 2Kg 19:34, Is 37:36
33 250 are burned to death for burning incense Num 16:35
34 Achan and his family are stoned and burned to death Jos 7:10-12, 24-26
35 Ananias and Sapphira were killed by God for not giving Peter all their money Acts 5:1-10
36 God kills Ezekiel's wife and tells him not to mourn her death Ezek 24:15-18
37 God killed Uzzah for trying to keep the ark from falling 2Sam 6:6-7, 1Chr 13:9-10
38 Samson kills 3000 in a suicide terrorist attack Jg 16:27-30
39 Ehud delivers a message from God: A knife blade into a fat man's belly Jg 3:15-22
40 A man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day Num 15:32-35
41 Seventy heads in two heaps 2Kg 10:6-10
42 Samson murders 30 men for their clothes Jg 14:19
43 Jehu assembles the followers of Baal and then slaughters them all 2Kg 10.18-25
44 God killed Nabal (and David got his wife and other stuff) 1Sam 25:38
45 Samson kills 1000 men with the jawbone of an ass Jg 15:14-15
46 A holy civil war (called by rotting concubine body part messages) Jg 20:35-37
47 Jeroboam's family: God kills a family 1Kg 15:29
48 God stops the sun so Joshua can kill in the daylight Jos 10:10-11
49 Baasha's family and friends: God kills another family 1Kg 16:11-12
50 A tale of two prophets 1Kg 13:11-24
Posted by Steve Wells at 4/14/2010 09:34:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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Eric Cernyar said...
A lot of the top 50 killings are faithfully taught to children in illustrated Bible stories. I learned more than 1/3 of them in children's Bible lessons, many of them presented quite vividly in felt. There's an impressive list of Bible stories in "felt" at http://www.thefeltsource.com/Bible-List-of-Lessons.html.
The series includes -- of course -- "Lot's wife disobeys." But it may surprise you that the series even includes "Nadab And Abihu Disobey." Imagine teaching children that one. Never pass up a chance to teach a child obedience.
Steve, do you plan to rank the top 50 based on our "rantings" or just our "ratings" or maybe both?
Wed Apr 14, 09:31:00 PM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Eric, it amazes me that any of these stories would be told to children or to anyone else. They are absurd, cruel, and immoral.
I'm not sure yet how I'll rank them. But I'm pretty happy with the way the ratings are turning out. Any rating is subjective, but it helps to spread it out a bit.
Wed Apr 14, 10:13:00 PM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
I think I remember the entire story of Jehu being told in one version of a children's illustrated Bible I had...
Thu Apr 15, 06:57:00 PM 2010
joshua said...
I think that God stopped the sun for Joshua's slaughter should make the list - and not just because of my connection to Joshua via my first name. After all, when else does God add time for a killing? He could have just smitten them with some hail, or fire, or smoke - but no, they had to all die at the end of a blade.
Fri Apr 16, 06:39:00 PM 2010
Intrinsic said...
You know those "Good News Bible Clubs"? The one sponsored by Child Evangelism Fellowship -- probably the largest Children's Bible lesson developer in the country?
God's Top 50 Killings are popular CEF flannelgraph stories.
Take, for instance, CEF's "Biblegram" teacher's guide on the "Life of David." Vol. 1, Lesson 2 is on "Saul's Disobedience." In scene 4, on page 9, the manual (1972 edition) guides teachers to tell the children gathered around the following story, in flannelgraph:
It was some time later that Samuel came again to King Saul and said, "Listen to the Lord's message. (Place figures 13 and 17, Samuel and Saul) You are to go and entirely destroy the Amalekites -- people -- animal --every living thing. Nothing shall be left."
The Amalekites were a very wicked nation who tried to get rid of God's people many years before. God took care of His people and promised that some day He would destroy the Amalekites (Exodus 17:8-16). Now, that time had come. And Samuel went home, leaving Saul to carry out the command of the Lord. (Remove figures).
Soon afterward Saul and his army met the Amalekites on teh battlefield. The Amalekites were completely defeated. But all was not well....
And the story continues, complete with Samuel's rebuke of Saul:
"The Lord chose you to be king over Israel when you didn't think you were so important." Samuel must have been thinking about that monument that Saul had built to honor himself. He continued, "The Lord sent you out under His orders. He said 'Completely destroy the Amalekites, those evil doers.' Now why haven't you done it?"
Proud Saul refused to admit the sin of disobedience. Not only was he disobedient, he also was dishonest. He lied when he said he did all that God told him to do. It is a very serious thing not to agree that we are wrong when the Lord points it out to us. The Lord can neither save nor bless us if we do not admit our sins....
This is followed by a lecture on sin:
....When Saul heard again that he was to be rejected as king, he was sad. But he was not sorry about his sin. If we truly want God to forgive us our sins, we must not only admit that we have sinned, but we must be sorry about sin and turn from it....
How dreadful to refuse God's way for our own proud way. God is not satisfied with anything but complete obedience. But you cannot obey the Lord until you've trusted Him as your Savior from sin.
This is, of course, followed by a teacher-directed sinner's prayer.
The section on I Sam 15 is 2 pages long. It's a whole lesson. It's long.
CEF has since updated their teacher's manuals in some way -- but I don't know how. This is what the cover of the current version looks like:
http://cefpress.com/product.php?productid=250&cat=14&page=1
The summary mentions the guide covering the "victory over the Amalekites."
Gotta inoculate children to the barbarity of the Bible while they are still young.
Sun Apr 18, 03:23:00 PM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Joshua, I agree with you about the sun-stopping killing in Joshua 10. I've added it to the list (#48).
Thanks for the suggestion.
Tue Apr 20, 06:28:00 PM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
Holy fucking crap, joshua; that's... that's even worse than the Watchtower's stuff. :-O
Tue Apr 20, 10:37:00 PM 2010
XO said...
Include the biggest that is yet to come. Where everyone will be wiped out, save the elect: 2 Peter 3:10
Sat Apr 24, 01:52:00 PM 2010
Maria V said...
Thanks Steve for all the insight because I was once in a trance state of mind...Now that I'm free it feels really good..you have really done your homework..I wish I could've have encountered this info a long time ago...
Sun Nov 28, 11:37:00 AM 2010
Margarita Passion said...
I know I'm preaching to the choir here (for lack of a less abhorrant metaphor), but opponents of religion need to come out and say it: religion is child abuse. not just the murders perpetrated against children in the old testament, and not just jesus's curses upon successive generations after an initial trespass. But here, in the present, in every church and synagogue and mosque, millions of children are being taught that God will murder them, often painfully and slowly, for disobeying him. That, once murdered, their immortal souls will burn and rot in a very real hell with very real fire, torment, and torture for all of eternity. That our human nature is inherantly evil. That our very instincts, urges, appetites, though god-given, are abominations before an all-powerful murderer who, in the words of Christopher Hitchens, can convict us of thought crime even while we sleep."
We, as rationalists, need to be vocal advocates for the emotional and psychological well-being of children everywhere and say loudly and forecfully that religion is emotional and mental child abuse. The intent of the abusers is of no consequence. When a misguided father beats his children becuase that was how he was taught to discipline kids, we don't condone his violence because his intentions were good. We take his kids away, lock him in prison where he belongs, and offer the children various methods of recovery.
I have suffered for years, and still do, from anxiety, nightmares, panic attacks, and self-hatred because my mind was molded by these hateful beliefs and, like all mental habits, especially those of born of abuse, they are intractable to a large extent. No child should have to suffer like this and it's time we said so.
Mon Aug 06, 11:23:00 AM 2012
komal mahmood said...
I WONDER WHY GOD HASNT KILLED YOU AS YET....
Fri Aug 24, 11:07:00 PM 2012
praestans said...
Hi Steve,
many don't realise that in xtian doctrine, God's top 50 killings are in fact Jesus' top 50 Killings. since the Trinity means he/yahweh are the one and the same. thus God sayeth..means thus Jesus sayeth...
Xtians seem to thing meek Jesus is waiting in the wings whilst daddy is slaughtering the innocents..but Jesus is the very one killing them..
Sun Sep 23, 07:36:00 AM 2012
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10 April 2010Ahaziah (of Judah)
It's hard to keep track of Bible characters. They often have the same name, live at the same time, do pretty much the same things (are evil in the sight of the Lord), and have the same fate (God usually kills them). It will drive you nuts if you're not careful.
Take king Ahaziah, for example.
First of all, there were two of them: Ahaziah of Israel and Ahaziah of Judah. They lived at about the same time (9th century BCE), were evil in the sight of the Lord, and they were both (more of less) killed by God.
I've already told you about Ahaziah of Israel. He was the guy that God killed for asking the wrong god if he would die after God burned to death 102 messengers for asking Elijah to come down from his hill so that Ahaziah could ask Elijah to ask God if he was going to die (even though he'd already been told God was going to kill him for asking the wrong god).
But this story is not about him. It's about the other Ahaziah, king Ahaziah of Judah.
There are a couple things to keep in mind about him.
1. Ahaziah of Judah had an alias: Jehoahaz (2 Chronicles 21:17, 25:23).
2. And he is the only person in the Bible (or anywhere else as far as I know) who was older than his own father. Here's how we know that.
Ahaziah of Judah began to reign when he was 42 years old after God killed his father Jehoram (by making his bowels fall out).
Ahaziah the son of Jehoram king of Judah reigned. Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign. 2 Chronicles 22:1-2
And his father's bowels fell out (with a little help from God) when he was 40 years old.
The LORD smote him [Jehoram] in his bowels with an incurable disease. And it came to pass ... his bowels fell out by reason of his sickness ... Thirty and two years old was he when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem eight years. 2 Chronicles 21:18-20
(2 Kings 8:26 says that Ahaziah was 22 years old when he began to reign, which means that he was both 22 and 42 years old when God made his dad's bowels fall out -- and that's almost as cool as being older than your father.)
Okay, but how did Ahaziah of Judah die?
For that we have to go back to the Jehu chronicles. You remember Jehu, don't you? The guy who madly drove around in his chariot killing people for God? Yeah, well, Ahaziah was on his list.
Jehu's first victim was Ahab's son, Jehoram, the king of Israel. (God wanted him killed since his father, Ahab, didn't kill a captured king.)
But Ahaziah was with Jehoram at the time and was pursued and wounded by Jehu. Ahaziah fled to Megiddo and died there.
When Ahaziah the king of Judah saw this, he fled by the way of the garden house. And Jehu followed after him, and said, Smite him also in the chariot. And they did so ... And he fled to Megiddo, and died there. 2 Kings 9:27
Since I couldn't tell from this story whether or not Ahaziah died from the wound or later from natural causes, I left it off the list of God's killings.
But then I read the story in 2 Chronicles.
And Azariah the son of Jehoram king of Judah went down to see Jehoram the son of Ahab at Jezreel, because he was sick. And the destruction of Ahaziah was of God by coming to Joram [Jehoram]: for when he was come, he went out with Jehoram against Jehu the son of Nimshi, whom the LORD had anointed to cut off the house of Ahab. And it came to pass, that, when Jehu was executing judgment upon the house of Ahab, and found the princes of Judah, and the sons of the brethren of Ahaziah, that ministered to Ahaziah, he slew them. And he sought Ahaziah: and they caught him, (for he was hid in Samaria,) and brought him to Jehu: and when they had slain him, they buried him. 2 Chronicles 22:6-9
According to this story, Jehu killed Ahaziah while he was hiding out in Samaria. "And the destruction of Ahaziah was of God."
So I don't know who to believe. Did Ahaziah die in Meggido or in Samaria?
I'm not sure. But I'm going to stick my neck out here and say that God approved of his killing, however and wherever he might have died. For "the destruction of Ahaziah was of God."
God's next killing: Joash, the princes, and army of Judah
Posted by Steve Wells at 4/10/2010 09:47:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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3 comments:
Nathan said...
Was Megiddo ever considered part of Samaria?
Sat Apr 10, 12:02:00 PM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Nathan,
"Was Megiddo ever considered part of Samaria?"
The atlas that I have (Harper Collins Atlas of the Bible) shows Megiddo and Samaria as separate city-states during the mid 9th century BCE, with Samaria south of Megiddo.
Does anyone else have any information on this? Brucker maybe?
Mon Apr 12, 10:07:00 AM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
Seems to me like Ahaziah could teleport himself... or, the inconsistency is simply a result of the story being fictional. ;-)
You be the judge.
Also, Steve? You put "(more of less) killed by God", instead of "(more or less) killed by God" by mistake; just wanted to point it out... :-S
Mon Apr 12, 11:34:00 PM 2010
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07 April 201042,000 killed for failing the "Shibboleth" test
After Jephthah finished killing and burning his daughter for God (51) to pay God back for helping him slaughter twenty Ammonite cities (50), he ran into some Ephraimites who were angry about being left out of the Ammonite slaughter.
The men of Ephraim gathered themselves together, and went northward, and said unto Jephthah, Wherefore passedst thou over to fight against the children of Ammon, and didst not call us to go with thee? Judges 12.1a
They were so pissed off about the whole thing that they threatened to burn down Jephthah’s house.
We will burn thine house upon thee with fire. 12.1b
Jephthah claimed that he invited them to join him in the God-assisted slaughter, but they didn’t come.
Jephthah said unto them, I and my people were at great strife with the children of Ammon; and when I called you, ye delivered me not … and the LORD delivered them into my hand. 12.2-3
Clearly, there was only one thing for Jephthah to do: call for a holy civil war.
Then Jephthah gathered together all the men of Gilead, and fought with Ephraim. 12.4a
So that’s what he did, and the men from Gilead defeated the Ephraimites.
And the men of Gilead smote Ephraim. 12.4b
After the battle, Jephthah posted guards at the Jordan River where the fleeing Ephraimites would have to cross.
The Gileadites took the passages of Jordan before the Ephraimites. 12.5a
When an escaping Ephraimite would come to the crossing, the Gileadites would ask him if he was an Ephraimite. If he said, “no”, they’d ask him to say “Shibboleth.” (Ephraimites couldn’t pronounce it correctly. It was like asking George Bush or Sarah Palin to say “nuclear.”)
When those Ephraimites which were escaped said, Let me go over; that the men of Gilead said unto him, Art thou an Ephraimite? If he said, Nay; Then said they unto him, Say now Shibboleth: and he said Sibboleth: for he could not frame to pronounce it right. 12.5b-6a
Then when the Ephraimite mispronounced Shibboleth by saying Sibboleth, they’d kill him.
Then they took him, and slew him at the passages of Jordan. 12.6b
And the Shibboleth test worked like a charm. 42,000 Ephraimites failed the test and were killed trying to cross the Jordan.
And there fell at that time of the Ephraimites forty and two thousand. 12.6c
And they deserved it, too, for not participating in the slaughter of the Ammonites, threatening to burn down Jephthah's house, failing to pronounce "Shibboleth" correctly, or whatever.
(Note: Jephthah is one of the heroes of God in Hebrews 11, so we can be pretty sure that God approved of the whole "Shibboleth" test / holy civil war massacre.)
God's next killing: Samson murders 30 men for their clothes
Posted by Steve Wells at 4/07/2010 12:32:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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7 comments:
Brucker said...
>>>It was like asking George Bush or Sarah Palin to say “nuclear.”<<<
This gave me a hearty laugh.
Wed Apr 07, 01:52:00 PM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
A bit confusing, no? What in the blue hell does "Shibboleth" have to do with killing Ephraimites? I don't remember the word being used in the Bible, before...
By the way, Steve, had the Gileadites read this blog post, you'd have failed the test, too; you misspelled "Shibboleth" in the title with only one B.
Wed Apr 07, 02:26:00 PM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Thanks Matthew. I fixed it before God or Jephthah found out that I'd misspelled "Shibboleth". That was a close one!
Wed Apr 07, 02:35:00 PM 2010
teavee said...
Typo? "Gileadites/Ephraimites couldn’t pronounce it correctly ..."
Wed Apr 07, 03:28:00 PM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Thanks teavee. God's going to kill me some day for my typos.
Wed Apr 07, 04:39:00 PM 2010
busterggi said...
Yahweh kills people who have speech impediments?
Thu Apr 08, 06:53:00 AM 2010
skanksta said...
Every post is Game, Set and Match !
Poor believers..
Thu Apr 08, 04:14:00 PM 2010
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02 April 2010A List of God-Approved Killings in the Bible
This is a list of the God-approved killings in the Bible. It does not include the killings that God performed himself or those in which he took an active role. (See here for a complete list of those killings.)
I've already posted about some of the killings (see links in the table), and I'll be adding more later to explain how we know that God approved of these killings. Eventually, I'll combine the lists to show all of God's killings, those that he approved of and those that he did himself. Killing Event Scriptural reference Biblical number Estimate
1 Shamgar killed 600 Philistines with an ox goad Jg 3.31 600 600
2 42,000 killed for failing the "shibboleth" test Jg 12.4-7, Heb 11.32 42,000 42,000
3 The massacre of the peaceful, unsuspecting people Jg 18.27 - 1,000
4 The End of Judges: Two genocides and 200 stolen virgins Jg 21.10-14 - 10,000
5 34,000 Israelites killed so that God could kill Eli's sons 1Sam 4.2-11 34,000 34,000
6 David or Elhanan killed Goliath 1Sam 17.51, 2Sam 21.19 1 1
7 David killed 200 Philistines for their foreskins (to buy his first wife) 1Sam 18.27 200 200
8 David slew the Philistines with a great slaughter 1Sam 19.8 - 10,000
9 David commited genocides for the Philistines 1Sam 27.8-11 - 50,000
10 David killed the messenger 2Sam 1.15 1 1
11 David killed Rechab and Baanah, cut off their hands and feet, and hung up their dead bodies 2Sam 4.12 2 2
12 David killed 2/3 Moabite POWs and enslaved the rest 2Sam 8.2 667
13 David killed 22,000 Syrians 2Sam 8.5 22,000 22,000
14 David killed 18,000 Edomites in the Valley of Salt 2Sam 8.13, 1Kg 11.15-16, 1Chr 18.12 18,000 18,000
15 David killed 47,000 Syrians 2Sam 10.18, 1Chr 19.18 47,000 47,000
16 David's massacre of the Ammonites 2Sam 11.1, 1Chr 20.1 - 1,000
17 David's army killed 20,000 Israelites 2Sam 18.7 20,000 20,000
18 Adino killed 800 at one time with a spear 2Sam 23.8 800 800
19 Eleazar the son of Dodo smote the Philistines with a great slaughter 2Sam 23.9-10, 1Chr 11.12-14 - 1,000
20 Shammah slew the Philistines 2Sam 23.12 - 1,000
21 Abishai killed 300 with his spear 2Sam 23.18 300 300
22 Benaiah slew two lion-like men of Moah and a giant Egyptian 2Sam 23.20-21, 1Chr 11.22-23 3 3
23 Solomon carries out the deathbed wish of his father David by having Joab murdered 1Kg 2.29-34 1 1
24 Solomn has Shimei murdered (another of David's death bed wishes) 1Kg 2.44-46 1 1
25 Zimri burns to death 1Kg 16.18-19 1 1
26 Elijah kills 450 religious leaders in a prayer contest 1Kg 18.22-40 450 450
27 A skeptic is trampled to death 2Kg 7.2-20 1 1
28 Jehu killed Ahaziah's family 2Kg 10.12-13, 2Chr 22.7-9 42 42
29 Jehu assembles the followers of Baal and then slaughters them all 2Kg 10.18-25 - 1,000
30 Jehoiada killed Mattan the priest of Baal 2Kg 11.17-18 1 1
31 Athaliah 2Kg 11.20 1 1
32 Amaziah slew 10,000 Edomites 2Kg 14.7, 2Chr 25.11 10,000 10,000
33 Josiah killed all the priests of the high places 2Kg 23.20 - 100
34 Jashobeam killed 300 at one time with his spear 1Chr 11.11 300 300
35 Ahaziah of Judah 2Chr 22.7-9 1 1
36 Amaziah killed the people that killed his father 2Chr 25.3 - 10
37 Amaziah killed 10,000 Edomites 2Chr 25.11 10,000 10,000
38 Amaziah pushed 10,000 men off a cliff 2Chr 25.12 10,000 10,000
39 Amaziah 2Chr 25.27 1 1
40 Uzziah's wars 2Chr 26.3-7 - 3,000
41 Jotham's war with the Ammonites 2Chr 27.1-5 - 1,000
42 Esther hangs Haman and his ten sons Est 7.6-10 11 11
43 The Jews killed those who wanted to kill them Est 9.9-16 75,800 75,800
Total 291,518 371,295
Posted by Steve Wells at 4/02/2010 09:33:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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Leor said...
There's more. David hanged Recab and Baanah (2 Sam. 4)
David's wars (2 Sam. 8)
Solomon's killings (1 kings 2)
Amaziah kills 20,000 Edomites (2 Chro. 25:11-12)
Fri Apr 02, 10:56:00 AM 2010
Brucker said...
This list seems way too short, I've got to say. Really no approved killings before Judges without divine intervention?
Fri Apr 02, 05:49:00 PM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Thanks, Leor. I've added them. Let me know if I've missed any others.
Yeah, I agree, Brucker. I was surprised when I went through the first six books and couldn't find any more. Are there any in Genesis - Joshua that you think should be included?
Fri Apr 02, 06:01:00 PM 2010
Brucker said...
I don't know, Genesis 14 has a war that seems to be approved by God, but it doesn't explicitly say God approved, nor that anyone was killed. I can't think of anything else.
Fri Apr 02, 06:54:00 PM 2010
Brucker said...
Got it; how about Exodus 2:12? It's arguable. I don't see it as condoned, but Moses certianly never gets punished for it.
Fri Apr 02, 07:36:00 PM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Yeah, Brucker, Exodus 2:12 comes pretty close. I Exodus 4, God nearly kills Moses for not circumcising his son, but he doesn't say a thing when Moses murders an Egyptian.
Still, I'd like the text to be more explicit. It looks like God approves, but the case seems pretty weak.
Fri Apr 02, 07:57:00 PM 2010
Cristiano SamZZ said...
I think you could include Lazarus's death in this list, Steve.
Jesus knew he would die, and could save him, but he's chosen to wait for two days, so he could die, and use his death as a miracle.
John 11:6 When he had heard therefore that he was sick, he abode two days still in the same place where he was.
Fri Apr 02, 09:07:00 PM 2010
teavee said...
What about 2 Kings 6:28-29 and Lam 4:4-11 taking into account Lev 26:29 and Deu 28:53? Do they fit in here? They might deserve mention in some list.
Fri Apr 02, 09:08:00 PM 2010
twillight said...
Ever wondered what happened with the 200 philistean foreskin David gathered?
The Talmud reports this:
Saul thought it had no value, but David held, they'll be good for dogs and cats as food!
Sat Apr 03, 02:46:00 AM 2010
Leor said...
Judges 15:8
2 Samuel 10:15-18
2 Samuel 18:7
2 Chronicles 15:9-15
1 Kings 12:18
Sat Apr 03, 03:57:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Leor: I thought about adding Judges 15:8, but I don't see how we can be sure that God approved of Samson's "great hip and thigh slaughter." But I probably missed something.
Sat Apr 03, 08:39:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Leor: I don't think I can count 2Chr 15.9-15, although it is an especially nasty passage: If you promise to kill non-believers, God will give you peace.
King Asa and the people took the oath and God blessed them for it. But did they actually kill anyone?
Sat Apr 03, 09:56:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Leor: I'm not sure about 1Kg 12:18. Did God approve of the stoning to death of Adoram or did the people just do it because they were pissed off?
Sat Apr 03, 10:37:00 AM 2010
Leor said...
2Chr 15.9-15: Whoops. Apperantly I read this passage as it is described in the Brick Testament (that shows the bodies of the unbelievers).
1Kg 12:18: The people being pissed off thing was part of God's plan to split the kingdoms.
Sat Apr 03, 12:25:00 PM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
Brucker, in Genesis 14, Melchizedek did thank God for blessing the war; doesn't that count for something?
Also, what about the golden calf? God didn't raise a hubbub over all the people Moses killed; doesn't his silence on this matter mean that he implicitly approved of it?
Sat Apr 03, 06:12:00 PM 2010
teavee said...
(Got this from a NonStampCollector YouTube video) Jephthah's men of Gilead kill 42,000 (Judges 12:4-7). But Paul states approval (Hebrews 11:31-32). Would that count?
Sun Apr 04, 06:49:00 PM 2010
Steve Wells said...
It works for me, teavee. I've added the 42,000 that failed the famous "Shibboleth" test!
Thanks!
Sun Apr 04, 07:16:00 PM 2010
teavee said...
Just a thought, should non-God committed/approved (mentioned by others) but poorly justified killings by supposedly good people of God be included in the master list for completeness as yet another category?
And maybe a category for untimely accidental deaths like the tower collapse which might still be viewed as an act of God in some way.
It might also be interesting to see who gets to live to a ripe old age after taking part in many killings. So-and-so, age xxx, death: natural/murdered/God-smote, took part in yyy thousand deaths, survived by ....
Categories for killings/deaths might be God-committed, God-approved, other killings (unjustified, questionable, justified?), accidental, natural.
How much more effort would it take to categorize all of the interesting deaths in the Bible? Are there many more after God-committed/approved?
Sun Apr 04, 09:14:00 PM 2010
nazani said...
Over at Debunking Christianity, John Loftus has a partial list of the child sacrifices in the Bible. Don't forget the kids!
Mon Apr 05, 06:02:00 AM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
Does he include Jephthah's daughter in that list? "What a treasure hadst thou!"
Mon Apr 05, 09:59:00 AM 2010
Talisman said...
I heard that Satan Has only killed 1. Lot's wife.
Mon Apr 05, 10:01:00 AM 2010
Leor said...
"David's slaughter of the Amalekites 2Sam 1:1"
It's not a god approved killing.
The text talks about God's 66th killing.
Mon Apr 05, 10:16:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Leor: Could you explain what you mean about 2Sam 1:1 a bit more?
Talisman: What did Satan have to do with Lot's wife. Maybe you're thinking of Job's children?
Mon Apr 05, 10:26:00 AM 2010
Leor said...
"David was returned from the slaughter of the Amalekites" 2 Sam 1:1
The last story concerning David in 1 Sam was God's 66th where David slaughters some Amalekites.
I think that verse simply mentions this killing (in other words, David killed the messenger [2 Sam 1:15] shortly after that very slaughter).
Mon Apr 05, 12:49:00 PM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Yeah, you might be right about that, Leor.
Although the David's Amalekite massacre (#66) wasn't the last one in 1 Samuel. There was the Philistine one that killed Saul and his sons in chapter 31. But David didn't get to participate in that one (the Philistines didn't trust him to fight Israelites), so 2Sam 1.1 may well refer to #66. So I'll remove it from the God-approved list. (I don't want to count anything twice.)
Mon Apr 05, 01:20:00 PM 2010
Srinivasan said...
And there I was thinking the Allah/Mohammed tag team was bad!
Wed Apr 21, 02:48:00 AM 2010
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