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31 January 2009David Attenborough on Genesis
The influence of the book of Genesis, which says that the Lord God said to go forth and multiply to Adam and Eve, and that the natural world is there for you to dominate, you have dominion over the animals and plants of the world. And that basic notion, that the world is there for us and that if it doesn't serve our proposes, it is dispensable, that has produced the devastation of vast areas of the world's surface... That is why we are in the situation that we're in. (3:28 - 4:27)
Of course this verse (Genesis 1:28) is marked green in the world's most dishonest book: The Green Bible.
Posted by Steve Wells at 1/31/2009 08:18:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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6 comments:
Uruk said...
Joseph Campbell makes the point that Genesis encourages mismanagement of the Earth, too. People are conditioned to believe the Earth is corrupted by sin and will pass away and be replaced.
So, why bother?
Our children's children are going to so hate us for not recycling!
Sat Jan 31, 11:19:00 PM 2009
Markus Arelius said...
The truth is, as stated multiple times by lettered scientists, is that the earth, and millions of species that occupy it, actually have dominion over us! The way things are progressing, human beings are doomed to either destroy themselves via nuclear war or to overpopulate the planet and die out from starvation and pollution.
Having the above truth in our minds, the quoted Genesis passage only serves to demonstrate how ignorant and self-centered humans were around the time of the invention of bronze.
Sun Feb 01, 11:39:00 AM 2009
matt311 said...
Well, hasn't humanity always been self-serving? We create a god to protect us and to make us feel better about ourselves, then harangue anybody who questions otherwise and condemn them to an eternity of (nonexistent) torture in the (nonexistent) afterlife.
Tue Feb 03, 12:50:00 PM 2009
Errancy said...
Human beings tend to make decisions about consumption of resources selfishly.
When there's a petrol shortage coming, we fill up our cars. When a bank might not have enough money to pay all of its creditors, we queue up to take out our money before the bank runs out. When there's a planning application for a wind turbine in our area, we object and say that it has to be built elsewhere.
It's this selfishness that causes environmental devastation and that needs to be curbed to stop it, but I'm not convinced that it comes from Genesis 1:18; after all, atheists behave like this too.
I'm pretty sure that we'd be devastating the planet with or without the Bible.
Thu Feb 05, 03:31:00 AM 2009
I Am said...
Errancy, I agree to some extent. I don't think the Bible created humans' disregard for the planet. I do think the Bible perpetuates it, however.
Similarly, I don't think the writers of the Bible actually invented slavery, or that there would never have been slavery anywhere were it not for the Bible, but its verses were used to justify it in the US and elsewhere.
I'm sure some people actually thought God was okay with enslaving people, just as I'm sure some people today unfortunately feel we can use everything on Earth to our sole benefit because God put us in charge.
Fri Feb 06, 04:30:00 PM 2009
Uno said...
Most people don't care about religion, just about themselves and the genes that have been passed onto them or they've left behind. That's why the environment is suffering and their is all kinds of terrorism in the world. The idea of God has nothing to do with it.
Thu Aug 27, 04:59:00 AM 2009
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26 January 2009Sodom and Gomorrah: Shall I hide from Abraham the thing that I do?
You may have noticed that God, after his first mass murder, showed a bit of remorse for needlessly drowning pretty much everything on earth. He even promised to never "smite any more every thing living." (Genesis 8.21)
And he kept his promise, too [if you ignore the anti-Sodomite slaughter], for another ten chapters or so. But in the end, God couldn't resist the temptation to kill again.
Abraham tried to talk him out of it, though. He and God and a couple of God's friends had been hanging out all day together. But after getting their feet washed and eating a big meal, God and his friends decided it was time to go.
The LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, And said … wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree … And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf … And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them … and they did eat. Genesis 18.1-8
They were heading off toward Sodom and Abraham decided he'd better tag along.
The men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way. 18.16
As they were walking along, God said (to himself?), "Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do?"
The LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do? 18.17
How's that for weird? God asks himself if he should tell Abraham what he is about to do (which is, of course, kill everyone in two cities). He doesn't know what to do. Is he afraid that Abe will talk him out of it? Or try to stop him? Or what? Or is he just embarrassed to be having bad thoughts again?
But God finally snaps out of it and tells Abraham what he's up to. He has heard that the people in Sodom have sinned and he's decided to go to Sodom and see for himself.
The LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know. 18.20-21
Abraham was on to him right away. He said, "Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?"
Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked? 18.23
God, who is one of his moods, ignores him. So Abe starts to bargain. What if there are 50 good people in Sodom? Would you kill them, too? "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"
Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein? … Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? 18.24-25
God says if he can find 50 good citizens of Sodom, he won't kill everybody.
The LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes. 18.26
So Abe tries 45, and God says he wouldn't kill everyone if there were 45.
Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it. 18.28
Abe keeps going this way (knowing that God is a tad slow). How about 40? 30? 20? 10? And each time God answers the same way: If God can find a few good men (well ten, anyway), he won't kill the whole city.
He said, Oh let not the LORD be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake. 18.32
And then God just takes off and Abraham goes home. "And the LORD went his way ... and Abraham returned unto his place."
And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place. 18.33
But God's two friends (they're called angels now) keep going to Sodom. Lot invites them in and gives them the usual God treatment (washes their feet and feeds them).
There came two angels to Sodom at even … and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground; And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night. And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat. 19.1-3
Then a strange thing happened. (Strange things often happen in the Bible.) Every man in the city of Sodom came to Lot's house and demanded to have sex with Lot's two angel friends.
The men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter: And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them. 19.4-5
Man, those must have been some good looking angels!
Lot's response was to protect the angels (who you'd think could take care of themselves) by offering the sex-crazed mob his two virgin daughters instead.
Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes. 19.8
[This is a man, by the way, whom the Bible calls "just and righteous" in 2 Peter 2:7-8. A few verses later he will get drunk and impregnate both his virgin daughters (see Genesis 19:30-38), but that's another lovely Bible story.]
As it turns out, though, there is no time for Lot to make good on his kind offer because God is getting ready to commit another mass murder. The angels strike the people of Sodom blind, tell Lot, his virgin daughters (and their husbands!), and his wife to flee.
But the men … smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness … And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place: For we will destroy this place … the LORD hath sent us to destroy it. 19.10-13
And then all hell breaks loose.
The LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven. 19.24
Okay, so that's it. That is God's second mass murder.
But how many people did God smash and burn to death in Sodom and Gomorrah? Well, I, of course, have no idea. I don't think any of this actually happened. But I'll guess 2000, 1000 from each city.
God's next killing: Lot's wife
Posted by Steve Wells at 1/26/2009 10:36:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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matt311 said...
Very interesting, but I think you should've titled this post "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?", mainly for two reasons:
1. In light of what God does, it's terribly ironic and sets the tone immediately for the post.
2. It was quoted in WATCHMEN, and WATCHMEN is awesome. ;)
Fri Jan 30, 08:43:00 PM 2009
I Am said...
I think the moral of the story is that it's useless to try to talk God out of mass murder.
Let's not forget Lot's wife, who is also killed for looking back at the city her God is destroying. I think the moral of that part of the story is that when sexy angels tell you not to look back when God's in his death-and-destruction mode, you don't look back.
Sun Feb 01, 08:27:00 AM 2009
boojum said...
Not that I want to defend Lot, because the bastard *did* try to surrender his daughters to be gang-raped, but in the later story it's his *daughters* who get *him* drunk in order to try to have sex with him.
Thu Feb 05, 10:21:00 AM 2009
Steve Wells said...
boojum,
Well, yeah, the daughters "got him drunk". But that's a pretty piss poor excuse if you ask me. He was an adult; it was up to him to decide when he'd had enough to drink. "My daughters forced me to get drunk and then fuck them" just doesn't seem like a just and righteous excuse to me.
Thu Feb 05, 03:39:00 PM 2009
C Woods said...
Great blog. I added you to my "Freethought Resources" links on my blog.
Fri Feb 06, 01:35:00 AM 2009
Jerome said...
I don't know about you guys but I would have to have had some prior dark and sick thoughts in my mind in order for the alcohol to make me want (or consent) to have sex with my own daughters ...
Tue Jun 30, 07:55:00 AM 2009
Fragged Mind said...
I'm doing a video on this tonight. I'll post a link to it once it is finished and uploaded.
Wed Jul 15, 06:54:00 PM 2009
Fragged Mind said...
Part 2 here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhTPmHv_XYM
Deals with Sodom and Gomorrah and Lot's Wife.
Thu Jul 16, 04:52:00 AM 2009
Brucker said...
Hey, Steve, I was trying to find this post, but it was tough. Don't you think it should have the "Sodom and Gomorrah" tag? (Or am I just a tag whore? I just checked, and while I think you have more posts than me, I have more than twice the number of tags used.)
Thu Sep 24, 09:44:00 PM 2009
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25 January 2009All the Fat is the Lord's: What the Bible says about Fat People
First of all, it is important to understand that God really likes fat. So I suppose he likes fat people, too. (He's probably overweight himself.)
All the fat is the Lord's.-- Leviticus 3:16
Even God's sword is fat (and bloody).
The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness. -- Isaiah 34:6
God likes fat animals, too. He plans to feed people to to them to make them even fatter.
Thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field ... Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth ... And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you. -- Ezekiel 39:17-19
God makes the diligent fat. (Lazy people are skinny and poor.)
The soul of the sluggard desireth, and hath nothing: but the soul of the diligent shall be made fat. -- Proverbs 13:4
God makes liberals fat, too. (I guess religious liberals should be the fattest of all.)
The liberal soul shall be made fat. -- Proverbs 11:25
If you trust God, he will make you fat. (So if you want to lose weight, don't trust him.)
He that putteth his trust in the LORD shall be made fat. -- Proverbs 28:25
Being fat is is sure sign of righteousness. (Wicked people are skinny and hungry.)
The righteous shall flourish like the palm tree ... they shall be fat. -- Psalm 92:12-14
How to tell the good from the bad: Good people are fat and get plenty to eat; the wicked are the ones who go hungry.
The righteous eateth to the satisfying of his soul: but the belly of the wicked shall want.-- Proverbs 13:25
So don't bother with the diet. Trust in God and be good, righteous, diligent, an liberal. And fat.
God - He's just a fat fairy
Posted by Steve Wells at 1/25/2009 02:42:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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6 comments:
busterggi said...
Thus America's obesity problem is the lord's will.
I think I'll have some pie.
Mon Jan 26, 03:52:00 AM 2009
Bobbertsan said...
Yesssssssssss!!!!!!
Kiss my diet goodbye!
Mon Jan 26, 09:53:00 AM 2009
Kamachari said...
So clogged arteries are holy? God bless this heart attack!
Mon Jan 26, 05:30:00 PM 2009
I Am said...
And here I thought only phat was good. No wonder Weird Al's "Fat" parody was so popular, even God likes fat.
In any case, it's interesting because these verses show that God didn't know that trying getting fat isn't a good thing. You'd think God would be smart enough to know that, wouldn't you?
Sun Feb 01, 08:12:00 AM 2009
larry said...
YOU STUPID PLONKER!
FAT IS THE BEST MACRONUTRIENT & CAN CREATE EVERYTHING THE BODY NEEDS.
GOOGLE:
The Optimal Diet – Fat is the most important macronutrient!
Sun Jul 28, 12:20:00 PM 2013
SonyaJean said...
Now I know why I would respond to comments about me gaining weight with, " Yeah I'm just living good!". I fat does do the BODY Good!
Fri Nov 01, 09:25:00 AM 2013
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24 January 2009The Flood of Noah: All flesh died that moved upon the earth
God's first killing is hard to beat. He killed everything. Here's how he described it:
The LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. Genesis 6.7
Behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die. 6.17
Every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth. 7.4
All flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died. And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark. 7.21-23
So the killing contest is over. God, in his very first killing, wins the prize. The guy who killed everything "on the face of the earth" is the world's top killer. He beats Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Ghengis Khan. All those guys. Maybe not in terms of the number killed, but certainly in percentage. You just can't beat 100%.
Of course, God had his reasons. God always has his reasons.
God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man. 6.5-6
The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. ... The earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. 6.11-13
Humans were wicked, they had bad thoughts, and the whole earth was violent and corrupt. So what's a good God to do?
Well, you might think he'd start a school to teach people how to behave, have them go to counseling, get them interested in other stuff -- like baseball or something. Anything to get their minds off their bad thoughts.
But no. God decided to drown them all. It was the best he could think of at the time. (He was having bad thoughts.)
The whole earth was filled with violence, so God killed everything on earth. (At least he found a nonviolent solution to the problem.)
Still, I don't quite get it. Did God drown the animals because they were too violent? Didn't he make them that way in the first place -- either at creation or after the fall of Adam?
But here is the excuse that I like the best:
God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man. 6.5-6.6
And here's what God says after he finishes the job and smells the burning flesh of Noah's sacrifice.
The LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done. 8.21
God regrets making humans because they have bad thoughts. So he kills them all. Then he regrets killing them all because they (still) have bad thoughts. (At least he fixed the problem!)
The mind of God is a frightening thing.
Okay so God drowned every person on earth except for Noah and his family. How many would that be?
Well, the flood was supposed to have happened about 2400 BCE, and the human population was somewhere around 20 million at the time. (McEvedy and Jones 1978)
Not a bad start for a serial killer.
Estimated number killed: 20 million
Everyone on earth (except for Noah and his family)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
God's next killing: Abraham's war to rescue Lot
List of God's killings
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by Steve Wells at 1/24/2009 04:21:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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18 comments:
busterggi said...
The more I re-read the Bible the more I think Yahweh is just an older name for Azathoth.
Sun Jan 25, 07:09:00 AM 2009
Markus Arelius said...
I guess the big question is why to Christians conveniently sweep such passages of the Bible under the rug or suggest that they don't exist. It's right there in black and white and they shrug it off as though God became a changed man after the virgin birth of his son Jesus.
I think it's good that we all begin to ask why it is the Christians consider the Bible their rock, their symbol for morality.
Sun Jan 25, 12:54:00 PM 2009
STA said...
I agree. Excellent post, and I look forward to the rest.
Sun Jan 25, 07:27:00 PM 2009
v_quixotic said...
This story is so much better in the Quaran.
As KafirGirl relates it, one of Noah's sons misses the boat and Noah is pretty broken up about it. So Allah just says, "Noah, dude, don't worry about it! He's not really your son because you wife is a slut..."
No wonder Noah had a drinking problem!
Tue Jan 27, 12:54:00 AM 2009
I Am said...
You guys are all missing the point. Those people and animals did not die in vain. God killed all those millions of people and animals so that kids could have storybooks with cute little animals so they could learn the names of different animals and learn about how wonderful God is! God committed the biggest massacre of all time so our kids could sing songs about "Elephants and kangaroosies" and giving God the "glory-glory"!
Markus Arelius, I think the problem in this case is that they DON'T try to sweep it under the rug. It's taught in Sunday School like it's something wonderful!
As a kid, it didn't occur to me that if the story were true, it'd obviously mean that millions of God's creatures, big and small, were drowning to death outside. They left out those verses of the song, I guess.
That's why religion is dangerous, especially for children: it warps people's minds so that even the completely obvious doesn't occur to them.
Sun Feb 01, 08:06:00 AM 2009
Timothy said...
I've just read this, and I have to say the way you put it just gets me to laughing. How you can make a serial murderer funny is a miracle, I don't know how you did it, but it was worth it.
It brings to mind something I heard awhile ago, can't remember where from. It went something like "the entire OT is a testament to God's incompetence." This story just emphasizes how true it is...
Thu Apr 30, 05:39:00 PM 2009
Fragged Mind said...
I know you have to approve posts so You can deny this one. I made a video on this called God's First Kill.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qcFN5frmT4
If you think it is worthy to mention I would be honored.
Laters,
FraggedMind
Sat Jul 11, 04:13:00 PM 2009
vp said...
Since those on the ark were spared, the estimate should exclude them. According to Genesis these were "Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them". I make that eleven people.
If we estimate that the entire population of the earth was 3 million, the estimate for the death toll should be 3 million - 11 = 2,999,989
Wed Aug 19, 02:37:00 PM 2009
Steve Wells said...
Yes, I suppose you're right about that, vp. Except it seems to me there were 8 not 11 people on the ark.
But when your estimate is as crude as mine (30 million plus or minus a few million), it seems a bit silly to say, 29,999,992, which implies that we know how many were drowned down to the last baby.
I know, I start with my rough estimate of 30 million and start adding from there, which suffers from the same significant digit problem. But I don't know any way out. Does anyone have a suggestions?
Wed Aug 19, 05:26:00 PM 2009
vp said...
Ahh, yes: eight people not eleven. Sorry about that: I was fooled by the comma.
I rather like the spurious precision of the death statistics. It adds to the surrealistic humor of this exercise.
Wed Aug 19, 09:07:00 PM 2009
documentn said...
It seems unfair to use 30 million when that number comes from the real world, where man was 8 million years old instead of 1600 years. Is it possible to get a number using the average birth rate and lifespan in Genesis, or something like that?
Sat Jan 09, 05:32:00 PM 2010
Steve Wells said...
documentn,
Yeah, it's not easy to come up with a good number no matter how you look at it.
If I try to get an estimate of the actual human population at the time the mythical flood supposedly took place (~2400 BCE), then 30 million seems reasonable.
If I start with the mythical Adam and Eve and try to estimate the population 1600 years later, I would get something else. (I have no idea what.)
If the flood happened like it is described in the Bible, then the human population went from 8 to 200 million or so by the time of Christ (about 2400 years after the flood). If it could do that, then there would be no problem going from 2 to 30 million in 1600 years.
I would be interested, though, in what Bible believers (particularly flood believers) have to say about this. How many do you think drowned in the flood?
Sat Jan 09, 08:05:00 PM 2010
Fragged Mind said...
The original estimate was 30 million...what happened to it? Also I would really trust a U.S. government census site for accurate information...at least not without seeing their sources.
Wed Apr 14, 11:24:00 PM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Fragged Mind,
I reduced the estimate to 20 million, since this is agrees with the US Census Bureau number (taken from McEvedy and Jones). They have 14 and 27 million for 3000 and 2000 BCE, respectively. So 20 million would seem about right for the time the flood supposedly occurred (2400 BCE). I found several estimates that were larger, but I am trying to keep my estimates on the conservative side.
Thu Apr 15, 07:04:00 AM 2010
Corrie said...
Oh my God! I love reading this website! no really i like it no sarcasm...really
Fri Jan 21, 05:39:00 PM 2011
Corrie said...
thank you for the reading..so comforting to think other people feel this way
Fri Jan 21, 05:40:00 PM 2011
Tommy said...
I think your number is probably reasonable, but is it fair to ascribe this as simply a mass-murder?
Your own SAB clearly states in vs. 6:5, 11, & 12 that all the people on the planet were consumed in wickedness. V. 6 says that their wickedness was so bad that God actually regretted creating them, and that that very regret was cause for grief in his own heart.
The Flood is a sad, sad story, one which illustrates the incredible capacity of humans for evil. The only bright spot in it is that God decided not to do away with humanity entirely, but to give it another chance.
You probably won't approve this comment, but I do hope that you realize there are at least some Christians in the world who don't choose to simply ignore the uglier and harder to understand parts of the Bible. That there are at least some Christians who critically examine their own beliefs daily and ask tough questions and refuse to accept cliche Sunday School answers as irrefutable truth. They do exist, though belief in that existence may be harder to accept that belief in some unseeable, untouchable God.
Thank you for your words and may they continue to inspire others to think.
Mon May 02, 10:52:00 PM 2011
Barry said...
It really saddens me (and even scares me a little)that when Christians are confronted by the immorality of god drowning people in a world wide flood, that their response is often "God can do what he wants."
Most Theists believe that their god is omnipotent and omniscient, yet the best that Yewah can come up with is to drown everyone? All the children, babies and most animals.
What is even scarier is when they ask me if I don't believe in god, where do I get my morals from along with this gem, "If I didn't believe in god, I would go around killing and raping and doing whatever I wanted"
Mon Jul 23, 01:11:00 AM 2012
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22 January 2009Swear not at all: Obama, the Bible, and the second oath of office
Since some of the words were flubbed a bit the first time around, Obama took the oath of office a second time. This time without a bible.
Which is as it should be, for two reasons:
The Bible is not required by the constitution. In fact, it would be unconstitutional for Chief Justice Roberts to insist, or even suggest, that Obama use a Bible in the ceremony. That would imply a religious test for office, which is disallowed by Article VI, section 3.
A Christian who believes in the Bible shouldn't swear on one.
The Bible, of course, is worse than useless when it comes to consistent advice on morality. But the New Testament (to avoid confusion, ignore the Old Testament on this one) is pretty clear about one thing: Christians shouldn't swear. Not to God and not on the Bible or on anything else.
Here's what Jesus (supposedly) said about it:
But I say unto you, swear not at all; neither by heaven for it is God's throne; Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil. Matthew 5:34-37
And the Book of James condemns swearing "above all things." I guess that would make it the worst possible sin.
But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation. James 5:12
It always seemed strange to me to swear on a book that is filled with lies.
I'm glad Obama got it right the second time around (except for the "So help me God" bullshit).
Posted by Steve Wells at 1/22/2009 07:05:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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13 comments:
Mike aka MonolithTMA said...
The "let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay" verse actually got me out of jury duty back when I was a Christian. They asked me if I would swear, and I said no I would not swear, but that I would say yes. I'm sure they thought I was a kook, and I would have to agree that I was.
Thu Jan 22, 08:52:00 AM 2009
Dan Gilbert said...
Nicely written! I didn't know about those Bible versus until I read them here. That's just priceless. According to those versus, the president shouldn't be taking an oath of office in the first place. It's entirely un-Christian!
Thu Jan 22, 09:44:00 AM 2009
Michael said...
I am a fervent believer in the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, but neither it, nor the religious test clause, is offended when a new President voluntarily appends the oath of office with "so help me God". The President is exercising his own religious freedom by referring to an external force -- his own religious beliefs -- in a demonstration of how seriously he takes his oath. Since the state does not require that he do so -- as evidenced by the Constitutionally prescribed text of the oath itself -- he is not being subjected to a religious test. The First Amendment case is even easier, because its Exercise Clause guarantees him the right to say "so help me God" if he so chooses.
Thu Jan 22, 12:17:00 PM 2009
Jonathan Bennett said...
Obama is surely too intelligent to believe in all that christian voodoo isn't he? And I guess he's also intelligent enough to realise that he has to pretend to "be of faith" in order to get anywhere in the semi-theocracy that is the modern US of A.
Thu Jan 22, 04:27:00 PM 2009
Uruk said...
Awesome post. I just had this argument with someone on Inauguration day. Vindication!! I really appreciate the information about Article Six. I knew people had used no text at all in the past and even a Koran, but I did not know about a specific article striking down religious tests.
And, I just wanna say that I've enjoy your posts so far. Also,when I deconverted from Christianity, the Skeptic's Annotated Bible was one of the first sources I started reading. Reading it was hard at first, but I just couldn't argue with it. Thanks for all of that work!
Thu Jan 22, 10:06:00 PM 2009
I Am said...
Steve, I like how you're able to find verses in the Bible to show how ridiculous some believers are. They claim to believe in the Bible, yet don't know or choose to ignore what's in it.
Michael, while I respect your opinion, that isn't the full story. The Chief Justice is the one who says "so help me God," and the president-elect is obviously expected to repeat it. This should not happen. If Obama threw it in "so help me God" or "Long Live Zeus!" afterwards for kicks on his own, you might arguably say it's his own free speech. But instead, Chief Justices are adding it on themselves and the incoming Presidents are now expected to say it. This is a religious test, and it's simply unconstitutional.
Jonathan, I'd like to believe he's just pandering, but if he was, I don't see why he'd pick the extremist Rick Warren to speak during the official inaugural festivities. Certainly there were kinder, gentler Christians out there he could have picked instead (and not just thrown one in at the last minute after some uproar against Warren).
Sat Jan 24, 12:30:00 PM 2009
Michael said...
I am, you're factually incorrect in your response to me. Obama wanted to say "So help me God" and told the Chief Justice, or perhaps his staff, before the inauguration. This fact is established by an affidavit filed by the defense in response to one of the lawsuits. While Roberts said "so help me God", he knew Obama wanted to say it. If a Chief Justice said "so help me God" to a president-elect who did not want to say it, that would be a different case, but that didn't happen here.
Sat Jan 24, 01:04:00 PM 2009
gorunnova said...
It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario. If he says it (which he did), a few people are up in arms about him pandering to the religious right. If he doesn't, the religious right would have been up in arms about how 'ungodly' he is to not swear in the name of God.
Since it's obvious the religious right has too much power right now, only an idiot would leave out the 'so help me God' when swearing in as the President. It's unfair, it's unconstitutional, but sometimes what is right gets smothered by necessity. I doubt the majority of people even realize what's so wrong about having 'so help me God' in an oath of office.
How many Presidents have said 'so help me God' in their swearing in ceremonies? It may now just be a convention that would cause too much pointless whining from the religious right (which whines VERY loudly) if left out.
Tue Jan 27, 05:26:00 AM 2009
I Am said...
Michael, whether or not Obama wanted him to say it is entirely irrelevant.
Roberts is acting as an agent of the state. There is no state religion. He has no business saying anything about God as long as he's carrying out his constitutional duties of administering the oath of office. Doing so serves as an establishment of state religion.
One thing that shows the words of the oath are deemed legally important is the fact that Roberts did a "take two" with Obama since he had gotten the words wrong. If all that mattered was what Obama thought, then nobody would have found it necessary for him to do the oath over. But instead, they recognized that to fulfill what was in the Constitution, Obama had to repeat the oath word-for-word.
If Roberts is going to mention anything about religion, there needs to be some indication that he's speaking personally and not as an agent of the state administering an oath. Saying "so help you God" immediately following the actual Constitutional oath while Obama's hand is still on the Bible and with no pause or comment in-between does not indicate that Roberts is speaking personally. In my opinion, that makes it unconstitutional, whether or not Obama is fine with it.
Sat Jan 31, 01:14:00 PM 2009
Michael said...
Whether Justice Roberts is acting as an agent of the state has some relevance as to whether he is violating the Establishment Clause, but it's not close to being decisive. A more important fact that you have omitted from your analysis is that President Obama told Justice Roberts he wanted the phrase "So help me God" appended at the end of the oath. So apparently he was not being coerced. The do-over had nothing to do with "so help me God" but with Justice Roberts's misplacing of the word "faithfully". Finally, your personal opinion is not a barometer of whether the phrase triggers the Establishment Clause.
Sun Feb 01, 09:34:00 PM 2009
I Am said...
Thank you Michael for allowing that Roberts' role acting as an agent for the State may have some relevance in the Establishment Clause.
The Establishment Clause does not mention coercion, so while coercion may be one way of violating it, I would think it shouldn't be the only way of violating it.
Theoretically, if every single American was Christian and wanted Christianity to be the official state religion, it would still be unconstitutional to establish it as such.
I clearly stated the reason I cited the example of the do-over. It showed the wording of the oath to be deemed important. If there is a doubt as to whether moving words around yields a Constitutionally-acceptable oath, an argument could be made that adding words to the oath may also not be acceptable.
Finally, I never said my personal opinion is the final word on the Establishment Clause. I'm not a Supreme Court Justice and have never studied law. I simply stated my opinion and clearly indicated that it was my opinion.
If it's unconstitutional to establish religion, and the Chief Justice asks the President (willingly or not) to swear by God, it would seem to be unconstitutional to me.
Mon Feb 02, 01:33:00 PM 2009
Lord forgive them said...
I had no idea that there were so many people in this country that refuse HIM. In the end, it doesn't matter if a person "believes" or not. He is and Judgement is coming. You can hurl insults if you want, but you will only prove my point.
God Bless the USA, because it sure does need Him now... more than ever!
Thu Feb 03, 05:38:00 AM 2011
don said...
I'M with Lord frogive them!
You great well fed & supplied Americans can shoot from the sholder all day..kinda like counting the grains of sand on the beach, just mouthing to men cause they hear you and your rant.
Where God being above you says you will be judged for every idle word. Mat:12-36 Still loving his creation and vast in mercy looks for the mouth to speak good things about him. So evidence of the great falling away is upon us our country and the world. No fear mates, Fearing God is the beginning of wisdom you may just "get it" before you pass.
Wed Apr 13, 10:59:00 AM 2011
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21 January 2009The time has come to set aside childish things (and become a nation of nonbelievers)
...in the words of Scripture, the time has come to set aside childish things.
...
We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers.
-- from Barack Obama's inaugural speech
Obama's speech yesterday was the first inaugural address to acknowledge the existence of nonbelievers.
Of course, it wasn't all sunshine and light.
There was Rick Warren's "Oh God, you are so big" - "It all belongs to you" - "History is your story" - bullshit prayer to Jebus. There was the "So help me God" phrase in the of the oath of office, contrary to the constitution. And there was the usual "God bless America" crap at the end.
Still, it was a great speech. I even liked Obama's use of scripture: 1 Corinthians 13:11
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
The time has indeed come to set aside childish things (like believing stupid things that are contrary to all existing evidence) and become a nation of nonbelievers.
Posted by Steve Wells at 1/21/2009 08:02:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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Matt S said...
uhh, amen?
Wed Jan 21, 04:50:00 PM 2009
Ian G. said...
Yes, I was very happy that he mentioned nonbelievers in a positive light, considering that a large number of Americans seem to equate nonbelievers with communist and fascist murderers (funny, I seem to remember reading about the strict religious upbringings of Stalin and Hitler).
I get the distict feeling that Obama may himself be a closet agnostic. Either way, he certainly isn't the abject fanatic that Bush was, so I'm less worried about public policy being based on lunatic religious dogma.
Wed Jan 21, 05:57:00 PM 2009
Rhadiel said...
Hmmm who will we be making fun of, then? :)
Thu Jan 22, 12:20:00 AM 2009
Calimero said...
Well while it was good to get the include - I feel that the term "nonbelievers" has negative connotations a bit like non-murderers or non-rapists. Of course if he had used the term non-delusional instead of nonbeliever, that I could accept.
Thu Jan 22, 02:16:00 PM 2009
I Am said...
I was very surprised and happy that he included nonbelievers in his speech.
Being the cynical person I am sometimes, I figured maybe he's just trying to avoid being pulled into the FFRF's lawsuit against the use of religion during the oath and inauguration. He could argue he mentioned nonbelievers and wasn't excluding them.
But Obama's father was reportedly an atheist. With the inaugural address, it seems Obama at least acknowledges that nonbelief in God is a valid viewpoint that is worth mentioning, whatever his motives.
I doubt we'll ever find out if he has agnostic or atheistic leanings himself, but nonbelievers being mentioned in Obama's first speech as President is definitely a start and hopefully a good sign.
Sat Jan 24, 12:15:00 PM 2009
Slaylem said...
Cue zealous christian rhetoric about drinking cool-aid and Obama being the anti-christ...again.
Tue Jul 21, 08:35:00 PM 2009
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10 January 2009How many animals has God killed?
And the Spirit of God came upon Saul ... And he took a yoke of oxen, and hewed them in pieces, and sent them throughout all the coasts of Israel by the hands of messengers. 1 Samuel 11:6-7
Too many to count, that's for sure.
How many animals did God drown in the flood? How many were sacrificed to him just so he could smell the sweet savor of their burning flesh?
Not even God knows that. He lost count long ago.
So I'll just list the times that God killed or commanded others to kill animals. (I wonder how many of these passages are marked green in the world's most dishonest book: The Green Bible*.)
Abel's offering: The first God-approved animal sacrifice
And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering. (Genesis 4:4)
The flood of Noah: God kills every animal except those in the ark (because "The earth was filled with violence.")
And all flesh died that moved upon the earth ... All in whose nostrils was the breath of life ... they were destroyed from the earth. (Genesis 7:21-23)
After God drowns all the animals except for those in the ark, Noah killed and sacrificed to God one of every surviving "clean" animal species. "And the Lord smelled a sweet savour." (This shows God's concern for endangered species.)
And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. And the LORD smelled a sweet savour. (Genesis 8:20-21)
God has Abram kill some animals for him: A cow, goat, ram, dove, and pigeon.
Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon. And he took unto him all these, and divided them in the midst. (Genesis 15:9)
God told Abraham to kill his son, but at the last moment, he changed his mind and told Abe to kill a ram for him instead.
Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. (Genesis 22:10-13)
To impress the Pharaoh, God turns the Nile into blood, killing all the fish. (It didn't work. The magicians of Egypt knew this trick, too.)
And the fish that is in the river shall die, and the river shall stink; and the Egyptians shall lothe to drink of the water of the river ... And the fish that was in the river died. (Exodus 7:18-21)
God kills all the cattle, horses, asses, camels, oxen, and sheep in Egypt.
the hand of the LORD is upon thy cattle which is in the field, upon the horses, upon the asses, upon the camels, upon the oxen, and upon the sheep: there shall be a very grievous murrain ... And the LORD did that thing on the morrow, and all the cattle of Egypt died. (Exodus 9:3-6)
God kills the (already dead) beasts of Egypt by smashing them with hail.
And the hail smote throughout all the land of Egypt all that was in the field, both man and beast. (Exodus 9:25)
God kills all the firstborn (twice-dead) Egyptian cattle. (I don't know how God figured out which were firstborn, but, hey, that's why he's God, right?)
at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle. (Exodus 12:29)
God drowns more than 600 horses.
And he took six hundred chosen chariots, and all the chariots of Egypt ... For the horse of Pharaoh went in with his chariots and with his horsemen into the sea, and the LORD brought again the waters of the sea upon them. (Exodus 14:7; 15:1, 19)
"And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people."
[Moses] offered burnt offerings, and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen unto the LORD. And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar ... And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people. (Exodus 24:5)
Moses kills a bullock for God
Aaron and his sons laid their hands upon the head of the bullock for the sin offering. And he slew it; and Moses took the blood, and put it upon the horns of the altar round about with his finger. (Leviticus 8:14-15)
Aaron kills a ram "and Moses sprinkled the blood upon the altar round about."
Aaron and his sons laid their hands upon the head of the ram. And he killed it; and Moses sprinkled the blood upon the altar round about. And he cut the ram into pieces; and Moses burnt the head, and the pieces, and the fat. (Leviticus 8:18-21)
Aaron kills another ram and "Moses took of the blood of it, and put it upon the tip of Aaron's right ear, and upon the thumb of his right hand, and upon the great toe of his right foot."
Aaron and his sons laid their hands upon the head of the ram. And he slew it,; and Moses took of the blood of it, and put it upon the tip of Aaron's right ear, and upon the thumb of his right hand, and upon the great toe of his right foot. And he brought Aaron's sons, and Moses put of the blood upon the tip of their right ear, and upon the thumbs of their right hands, and upon the great toes of their right feet: and Moses sprinkled the blood upon the altar round about. (Leviticus 8:22-24)
Aaron kills a calf for a sin offering "and he dipped his finger in the blood."
Aaron ... slew the calf of the sin offering ... And the sons of Aaron brought the blood unto him: and he dipped his finger in the blood, and put it upon the horns of the altar, and poured out the blood at the bottom of the altar: (Leviticus 9:8-9)
Aaron kills the burnt offering "and Aaron's sons presented unto him the blood, which he sprinkled round about upon the altar."
And he slew the burnt offering; and Aaron's sons presented unto him the blood, which he sprinkled round about upon the altar. (Leviticus 9:12-14)
Aaron kills a bullock for a wave offering. "And the breasts and the right shoulder Aaron waved for a wave offering before the LORD."
He slew also the bullock and the ram for a sacrifice of peace offerings, which was for the people: and Aaron's sons presented unto him the blood, which he sprinkled upon the altar round about ... And the breasts and the right shoulder Aaron waved for a wave offering before the LORD; as Moses commanded. (Leviticus 9:18-21)
Killing more animals to satisfy a blood-thirsty god.
He shall bring two turtles, or two young pigeons, to the priest ... and the priest shall offer the one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering. (Numbers 6:10-20)
When Moses set up the tabernacle, each of the twelve tribes kills a bullock, lamb, ram, and a kid, two oxen, and five rams, goats, and lambs for God, for a grand total of 240 animal sacrifices. (Numbers 7:15-88)
The Levites shall lay their hands upon the heads of the bullocks: and thou shalt offer the one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering." (Numbers 8:8-12)
God commands Joshua to kill every animal in Jericho (because they are "accursed" to the Lord.)
And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD. ... And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword. (Joshua 6:17-21)
God tells the Israelites to stone and burn to death Achan's animals (along with Achan and his family, of course).
And Joshua, and all Israel with him, took Achan ... and his sons, and his daughters, and his oxen, and his asses, and his sheep ... And Joshua said, Why hast thou troubled us? the LORD shall trouble thee this day. And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones. (Joshua 7:24-25)
More burned offerings to the Lord.
As Moses the servant of the LORD commanded ... they offered thereon burnt offerings unto the LORD, and sacrificed peace offerings. (Joshua 8:31)
The spitit of the Lord came on Samson (and he killed a lion).
Then went Samson down ... and, behold, a young lion roared against him. And the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon him, and he rent him as he would have rent a kid. (Judges14:5-8)
The Spirit of God comes on Saul (and he hacks a yoke of oxen to death and sends the pieces throughout Israel).
And the Spirit of God came upon Saul ... And he took a yoke of oxen, and hewed them in pieces, and sent them throughout all the coasts of Israel by the hands of messengers.(1 Samuel 11:6-7)
God was angry at Saul for not killing all the Amalekite animals. Saul killed all the people (except Agag), but he kept some of their animals. Because he didn't kill everything, God repented of choosing him for king. (So he made David king instead. David liked to kill things.)
Thus saith the LORD of hosts ... Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. ... And Saul smote the Amalekites ... Andand utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword ... But Saul and the people spared Agag, and the best of the sheep, and of the oxen, and of the fatlings, and the lambs ... but every thing that was vile and refuse, that they destroyed utterly. ... Then came the word of the LORD unto Samuel, saying, It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. (1 Samuel 15:2-19)
When dedicating the temple, Solomon killed so many animals that it was impossible to number them. (Not even God knows how many animals were killed.)
King Solomon, and all the congregation of Israel, that were assembled unto him, were with him before the ark, sacrificing sheep and oxen, that could not be told nor numbered for multitude.(1 Kings 8:5)
Just kidding -- God knows. It was 22,000 oxen and 120,000 sheep.
And Solomon offered a sacrifice of peace offerings, which he offered unto the LORD, two and twenty thousand oxen, and an hundred and twenty thousand sheep. (1 Kings 8:63, 2 Chronicles 7:5)
To make God happy, the Israelites killed 700 oxen and 7,000 sheep (and all the non-believers).
And they offered unto the LORD the same time, of the spoil which they had brought, seven hundred oxen and seven thousand sheep. ... That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.(2 Chronicles 15:11-13)
Seven bullocks, seven rams, seven lambs, and seven he-goats were killed, and their blood sprinkled around. Then the carcasses were burned and they sang "the song of the Lord."
And they brought seven bullocks, and seven rams, and seven lambs, and seven he goats, for a sin offering ... So they killed the bullocks, and the priests received the blood, and sprinkled it on the altar: likewise, when they had killed the rams, they sprinkled the blood upon the altar: they killed also the lambs, and they sprinkled the blood upon the altar. And they brought forth the he goats for the sin offering ... And the priests killed them, and they made reconciliation with their blood upon the altar, to make an atonement for all Israel: for the king commanded that the burnt offering and the sin offering should be made for all Israel. ... And when the burnt offering began, the song of the LORD began.(2 Chronicles 29:21-27)
God and Satan not only killed Job's 10 children, they also killed his servants (I need to revise their kill numbers!) and burned to death his sheep.
While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them (Job 1:16)
Jesus drowns a herd of devil-possessed pigs.
And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs ... And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? ... And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding. So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine. And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters. (Matthew 8:28-32)
Jesus drowns 2000 pigs, after driving them out of a possessed man. (Notice that the other story says there were 2 men. So I guess Jesus must have done this nasty trick twice -- or maybe the stories were just made up.)
And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit ... And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? ... And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine ... And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea. (Mark 5:2-13)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* I went back to the library to check on this. It turns out that 5 of the passages on the list are marked green in the Green Bible. Here they are, along with their comment for each.
Green Bible: "The stability of creation"
(God drowned his creation and Noah sacrificed some of the few animals that survived; this shows how much God values the stability of his creation?)
And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. And the LORD smelled a sweet savour. (Genesis 8:20-21)
Green Bible: "Polluted river was a plague of Egypt."
(Yes, but who sent the plague? This should be marked red, not green.)
And the fish that is in the river shall die, and the river shall stink; and the Egyptians shall lothe to drink of the water of the river ... And the fish that was in the river died. (Exodus 7:18-21)
Green Bible: "The fifth plague: livestock diseased"
(God killed all the horses, asses, camels, oxen, and sheep. What excuse could there be for marking this green?)
the hand of the LORD is upon thy cattle which is in the field, upon the horses, upon the asses, upon the camels, upon the oxen, and upon the sheep: there shall be a very grievous murrain ... And the LORD did that thing on the morrow, and all the cattle of Egypt died. (Exodus 9:3-6)
Green Bible: "The seventh plague: thunder and lightening"
(God smashes animals and people with hail. This shows his concern for the environment?)
And the hail smote throughout all the land of Egypt all that was in the field, both man and beast. (Exodus 9:25)
Green Bible: "Jesus sends demons into a herd of swine."
(Yes he did. Kind of nasty, don't you think? I guess it was marked green because it had pigs and water in it.)
And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs ... And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? ... And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding. So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine. And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters. (Matthew 8:28-32)
Posted by Steve Wells at 1/10/2009 12:30:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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9 comments:
Paul said...
Wow. That God...
Sun Jan 11, 10:10:00 AM 2009
I Am said...
Unlike God, I support animal rights. I was going to say someone should call PETA, but it looks like they've been drinking the same Kool Aid as the people who wrote the Green Bible. Here's an answer from their FAQ (you have to scroll down quite a ways to find it, so here's a quote)
If we have dominion over animals, surely it is to protect them, not to use them for our own ends. There is nothing in the Bible that would justify our modern-day practices, which desecrate the environment, destroy entire species of wildlife, and inflict torment and death on billions of animals every year. The Bible imparts a reverence for life, and a loving God could not help but be appalled by the way that animals are treated today.
Are they reading the same Bible?! God doesn't even believe in human rights, much less animal rights.
God loves the smell of burning animal flesh. God invented the mass slaughter of animals (a little thing called the flood). A reverence for life from the deity who doesn't even bother to count how many millions of people he's killed, much less how many animals?
If PETA truly believes this, then they're crazy! I'm sure though that they and/or many animal rights groups are aware of the cruelty in the Bible, but in today's climate I suppose they don't want to openly condemn the very animal-unfriendly Bible.
Sun Jan 11, 10:58:00 AM 2009
Kamachari said...
I think PETA had a copy of 'My First Pop-Up Bible'!
Mon Jan 12, 11:16:00 PM 2009
twillight said...
The best part of the U2b video when they say: "God will destroy the whole Wrold anyway, so why care?"
Wed Jan 14, 02:21:00 AM 2009
Markus Arelius said...
Jesus Christ! God killed a shitload of animals!
But come on, I'm sure Tyson Foods kills more chickens (millions) in just one year than all of the lamb flambee's prepared by the 15,000 primitive men that were living in Palestine around 4,000 B.C.
And another thing - if God wanted humans to all be vegetarians, then why in the hel did he make veal, for example, taste so damn good??
Thu Jan 15, 12:05:00 AM 2009
Kamachari said...
Markus Arelius, if God wanted us to eat animals why did he make them capable of feeling pain and suffering?
Because God's a shit!
Fri Jan 16, 01:48:00 AM 2009
twillight said...
wel,, God wanned human to be vegetarian. But humans were "evil", still after the Great Flood, so he let them eat some meat too (seems they did it anyway, so what's the harm Mr. Almighty might sayeth).
Sat Jan 17, 09:36:00 AM 2009
Ezra Meridian said...
I love the smell of cooked Lamb, but burning the greatest of red meats is sacrilegious. If I was God, I would have been pissed-off if someone overcooked my Entree.
Mon Jan 19, 09:24:00 PM 2009
uzzas said...
What's missing is WHY he kills all these animals. He kills the people because they are sinful, but he seems to kill the animals just to get his rocks off.
Mon Jan 26, 05:19:00 PM 2009
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03 January 2009Who has killed more, Satan or God?
And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. Job 1:1-19
Since I revised the number on God's kill list, I also have to change the God vs. Satan killing contest results. So here it is.
In a previous post, I counted the number of people that were killed by God in the Bible. I came up with 2,476,633, which, of course, greatly underestimates God's total death toll, since it only includes those killings for which specific numbers are given. No attempt was made to include the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc., with which the good book is filled. Still, 2 million is a respectable number even for world class killers.
But how does this compare with Satan? How many did he kill in the Bible?
Well I can only find ten, and even these he shares with God, since God allowed him to do it as a part of a bet. I'm talking about the seven sons and three daughters of Job.
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job ... And there were born unto him seven sons and three daughters.
...
And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? Then Satan answered the LORD ... put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.
...
And there was a day when his sons and his daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house...And, behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. -- Job 1:1-19
So it seems that both Satan and God share the blame (or the credit) for these killings. If so, then the tally would be:
killings
God 2,476,633
Satan 10
No contest.
Update
I've tried to assign numbers to the un-numbered killings in the Bible. You can see the detailed list here.
The results were even more lopsided: 25 million (plus or minus a few million) for God; 60 for Satan.
Here is a more complete table. numbered killings estimated total killings
God 2,476,633 25 million
Satan 10 60
Posted by Steve Wells at 1/03/2009 08:01:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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71 comments:
Bryan said...
Maybe Satan has killed more, he just didn't brag about it in a book.
Bragging is a sure-sign of low self-esteem, God.
Sun Jan 04, 12:59:00 AM 2009
I Am said...
If God killed at least 2.3 million in the Bible and Satan killed only 10, I guess this means you are at least 230,000 times more likely to die at the hands of God than at the hands of the Devil.
God is love, indeed.
Sun Jan 04, 12:53:00 PM 2009
Danielle said...
I must say that we are suppose to fear and respect our God. The times in the bible when multiple/100's of ppl were killed at once, God doesn't do it in a sneaky way like Satan. God makes it clear the people are behaving in an unchristian like or unfair way. God's people were going to day (for ex: when Moses split the sea and let his ppl through). God saved his (God's) people.
As I said, everyone was warned or had the opportunity to believe and follow, those who died chose not to. Whether that is fare or not, idk. If i hadn't grown up in a Christian home, I would probably find it difficult to believe, but I look around and everything is so complex. The simplest of things are still so complex. how the leaves change every fall, how everything works together so well, the eye! the eye is so complex, how could that just be? how can something so complex and so perfect just come to be? I believe in more than what is on this earth. I believe in a higher power who does give me comfort when I'm in need. and when i don't get the answer i am looking for, or don't get an answer at all, then i need to be patient, God will answer when he believes the time is right. The world isn't suppose to be fair or perfect, it is not heaven. If you want to look at the numbers of deaths in the bible, yes there were a lot. Yet be sure to look at the context and the whole story. Also it is not clear how many deaths are caused by Satan. Satan doesn't come out with a gun and kill people. Satan manipulates people, places doubt in them, and is the root of all evil. Evil is the cause of many if not all deaths. Atleast i believe that is how Christians see it.
Mon Jan 05, 08:51:00 PM 2009
Steve Wells said...
Danielle,
You say that "everyone was warned or had the opportunity to believe and follow, those who died chose not to."
Did the Egyptian babies have a change to believe when God killed them all on the night of the Exodus? (Exodus 12:29-30)
How about the Amalekite women, children, infants, and babies? (1 Samuel 15:2-3)
It's time that you face it and admit it honestly. Your God is a monster. It's a good thing he doesn't exist.
Mon Jan 05, 09:44:00 PM 2009
Lisa43 said...
Satan has killed the entire human race, he wins.
Genesis 3:9-24
9.Then the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, "Where are you?"
10.He said, "I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked ; so I hid myself."
11.And He said, "Who told you that you were naked ? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat ?"
12.The man said, "The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me from the tree, and I ate."
13.Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done ?" And the woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."
14.The LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, Cursed are you more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field ; On your belly you will go, And dust you will eat All the days of your life ;
15.And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed ; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."
16.To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children ; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you."
17.Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life.
18."Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field ;
19.By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken ; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."
20.Now the man called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all the living.
21.The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.
22.Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil ; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever "-
23.therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.
24.So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.
Mon Jan 05, 10:27:00 PM 2009
I Am said...
Danielle, I grew up a Christian and used to believe in God. I even considered becoming a pastor! But the more I actually thought about God and what's in the Bible, the more I realized that things just don't add up. Once I got past thinking it *had* to be true, I realized it *couldn't* be true. A God who causes or allows so much death, destruction, and suffering can't be good. Maybe if you go through the Bible (the verses in the original post are a good starting point) and ask yourself honestly "why would a good God have to do all this bad stuff?" (killing kids, destroying entire cities, sending plagues, etc.), you might start to see why some people don't believe in God.
Lisa43, God created Satan. God wins.
Colossians 1:16. "For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him." (NIV)
Wed Jan 07, 11:39:00 AM 2009
MaDDoG said...
Stop taking the Bible out of context.
Do you even know what the Bible is about? Do you know how to study it? I do not think you do, seen is how you take it out of context and try to brainwash people with your lies.
First of all the entire Bible is God's plan of Redemption. These are the five sections:
1. The Need, covered in Genesis 1-11
2. The Nation, covered in Genesis 12-Malachi
3. The Person, covered in The Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John)
4. The Explanation, covered in Acts-The Epistles
5. The End, covered by revelation
God created mankind. Think of perfection as a box, we started there in the garden of eden. Then we sinned, therefore creating the Need. The need for redemption. Then the Nation of Israel is God's chosen people are all part of the nation. The Person, Jesus Christ, God's one and only son came to die for our sins, so we have to bare the weight of our sins no longer if he is in our heart and we confess to him. The Explanation comes next, hmmm, mabey you should read this part of the Bible. Then The End, Revelation, God comes back to earth and takes all of his faithful followers to heaven with him. He defeats satan and his followers, and if you do not believe in God, or follow false Gods you are considered just that. Then we end up where we started, the box, perfection.
Earth is just a choosing ground, do you want to follow God on earth and be selfless, and righteous, and die and go to a place of perfection for eternity? Or would you like to be selfish here on earth, act like there is no supreme authority, do whatever you like and go to hell for eternity?
The evidence of God's existence is inevitable and the life of a Christian is enriched. I don't understand why you have made it your life's mission to hate us.
Hopefully now you can study the Bible in the proper way.
Tah Tah.
Sat Jan 17, 10:37:00 PM 2009
Rob said...
The Devil isn't allowed to kill anyone without God's permission, so therefore God killed everybody.
But in reality, "The teacher didn't fail you, you failed yourself". If you understand what I mean ;-).
Also, thank you for showing us how many people "God killed". At least we know that God didn't kill the most amount of people in the world, at least as not as much as humans have.
Personally, I think your wasting your life doing... whatever your doing. In fact, all your articles just made me realize how stupid people are (mainly the ones that try to prove him wrong by using the bible lol!), and how great God is. Thanks lol :-).
Fri Jan 23, 02:14:00 PM 2009
Espen said...
To Danielle:
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/futuyma_complex.html
will tell you what you need to know about the evolution of the eye, even with pictures.
Sun Jan 25, 04:40:00 PM 2009
Kwizzy said...
So, why am I born to need saving because someone else who I've never met did something bad under the influence of a fallen being God created and could have but didn't bother to destroy? Seems like extortion to me.
Just, y'know, curious. I'm trying to see the advantage of worshiping a God who already has me in the negative. Gotta sell it, man.
Mon Feb 02, 05:58:00 PM 2009
jwhetham said...
MaDDog says people should stop taking the Bible out of context.
MaDDog is an idiot, considering the bible -- especially the old testament -- is the most ridiculous piece of fiction ever written. He's also an idiot because he claims to have knowledge about a supernatural being that no one can have.
He caps his insane post by saying the evidence of god's existence IS INEVITABLE, meaning, it will happen. So he's suggesting that as of today, there is no evidence for god's existence. And he's right. Just like there's no evidence for unicorns, dragons and fairies.
Thu Feb 05, 12:25:00 AM 2009
JKnight said...
@MaDDoG Stop taking the Bible out of context? LOL too funny. So let me get this straight - god created man in a garden with a fruit tree HE KNEW the humans would eat from. So he set them up for failure to begin with right? He created the talking snake to tempt them right? Think logically about the absurd fairy tales you believe and wake up. Why would an all powerful, all knowing god have human emotions? Why would an omnipotent being get angry? Can you imagine god wanting anything? Think...think....think!
Thu Feb 05, 04:18:00 PM 2009
rgb said...
It is impossible to take the bible out of context. It has no context. It is a collection of myths, legends, stories (ordinary fiction or parables or metaphors) and sure, a bit of history.
And there is no point in addressing Genesis "in context" as it is manifestly pure myth from beginning to end. The Universe was not created in six days by a being who moved over the face of a pre-existing "deep" (ocean). There was no garden of Eden. There was no temptation, no fall from a state of perfection. There was no expulsion, no "being cursed with death". There was no rain that fell that covered the earth in 40 days (that would be 5 inches of rain a minute, for those of you with calculators and a knowledge of the height of Mount Everest) -- you would drown standing up and no non-submersible boat ever built would not sink under it). There was no (submersible) ark, it did not contain all of the species on the planet in either pairs or sets of seven pairs, it did not preserve the lives of a single family from whom the human race then restored itself.
All of this is known from evidence, literally mountains of evidence, plus just the tiniest dose of common sense. Unfortunately, BICCs (Biblically Inerrant Conservative Christians) have learned to turn off their common sense when it comes to the Bible. And (it seems) they are absolutely incapable of doing arithmetic, let alone actual mathematics, so things like radiometric dating are some sort of mystical juju to them where reading the words of Genesis are simple Truth by Divine Revelation.
So no, mad dog -- we weren't created perfect, we evolved (and continue to evolve) from the less "perfect" to the more, where the standard of perfection is fitness to survive. We do not need salvation because of original sin because there was no original sin. And from this fact alone, the rest of the OT and NT is rendered pointless.
To me, a simple and sufficient cause to reject the Bible can be found in Numbers 31, where God tells Moses to tell his troops to commit genocide. Not just any old genocide -- they are to wipe out the women and children of a conquered people (right down to babies in arms) except for young virgin females. The men are to take those for themselves, so they can finish off their bloodletting with a little slave-rape.
These weren't impersonal deaths, of course. Back then killing somebody meant hacking them open or stabbing them and watching while their life quivered out of them in a pool of their own blood and feces. Tens of thousands of murders -- as this was no act of war, it was an act of murder.
So c'mon, my BICC friends. Face up to your faith. Visualize Moses, a righteous man (according to the Bible, in spite of his lies, deceptions, and acts of egregious violence, not to mention his incredible stupidity as it took him forty years to move his people a couple of hundred miles from Egypt into Israel), one the NT records as walking with Jesus post resurrection at the ascension -- and then visualize his troops at his direct command killing babies. I mean real, live babies -- in their mother's arms. I mean small children, trying to hide behind the safety of their parent's legs even as that parent is gutted. I mean little boys feeling their life flow out of them through a hole that passes through their lungs even as your murderer strips your sister and investigates with a still-bloody finger whether or not she is a virgin, then raping her (either way) before your dying eyes.
That's God for you.
rgb
Tue Feb 10, 08:13:00 AM 2009
C Woods said...
This post was so hysterically funny, I laughed out loud. The charts are priceless. One of the problems with most religious people is that they have no sense of humor. To them, everything is so damn serious.
And, of course, they accuse you of wasting your life ---what's more wasteful than worshipping something that doesn't exist? They don't get it and never will.
Despite claiming people must be believers in order to be moral, many Christians don't act much better than their god. See my new series "Christians Behaving Badly" on my blog:
http://tirelesswing.blogspot.com
Sun Feb 15, 10:54:00 PM 2009
sailorman said...
I like what rgb above said about Moses and his people killing the babies. Killing 40+ million babies via abortion each year world wide doesn’t seem so bad.
Mon Mar 23, 10:02:00 PM 2009
Misty said...
rgb, you seem to be right on. I just started reading the Bible, to see what the thing actually says from start to finish. You know, a lot of Christian conservatives balk at the violence and awful things that are shown on television and are a part of our society today, but if you open up the Bible and read any part of the Pentateuch, you will find things far worse. Blood blood blood blood. Violent and nauseating. God marks his people by forcing them to chop off part of their men's penises, and was even going to kill Moses over a circumcision. How loving: "chop off the tip your penis or die!" See Exodus 4:24 to 4:26. And don't forget about dear Dinah, oh! And the killing of Aaron's son's just for the offense of swinging the censors in the wrong fashion in the temple! I've yet to read a comforting word in the Bible. If there is a God, it cannot be the one who is written of in this book. He is a cruel dictator who is obsessed with blood. Fling it on the alter, 7 times, smear it on the alter horns, and burn it. God says it smells good.
Sat Apr 04, 03:09:00 PM 2009
Mike B) said...
As supernatural creatures are the products of our thinking, we are responsible for all the deaths. Sometimes some of the more benighted amongst us attribute these deaths to god, sometimes to satan.
Sun Apr 19, 07:45:00 AM 2009
A Survivor said...
but the whole jesus story IS merely a remake of a remake of an older story (yawn) Horus, Mithras - Biblical stories USED older and familiar stories becasue its easier to manipulate and control people with the familiar, rather than have to contend with their natural suspicion and mistrust of the strange. It also taps into pre-existing beliefs and merely has to reinterpret them, and then add extra conidtions.
Sun May 24, 02:13:00 AM 2009
Heidi said...
Does anybody have the relevant passage that says the talking snake is indeed Satan? Because I didn't see any mention of the snake being anything more than a talking snake. And now he is denied legs as a reward for his effort of bringing knowledge to mankind.
Tue Jun 02, 09:56:00 AM 2009
aaroux said...
To the loudmouth skeptics:
What gives you the right as a human being whose life is held in the hands of God, to raise your peeny little voice against Him? Maybe while you are trying to bring perspective to the masses you should consider how you came about your own.
Indeed, you have done the maths and calculated that God has the power over life and death (including yours). Seeing you found the answer, should He therefore not be feared, instead of being mocked? As it is you express your mockery towards Him on borrowed time. Unless you think that you will live forever. That will be a first!
It is not your logic that keeps you from believing in God as the creator of all things, but your own wicked nature. That nature is attributable to Satan as your father to whom you bow and obviously worship as your hero.
So what has Satan done for you? Has he come to you to comfort you in sorrow or in death? Has he made plants grow; or the stuff that you so willingly eat? Or has he created the universe? Does he bring you joy at night? Does he promise you salvation? Where is his book that he has written and where has he communicated to you?
God gave you life and will surely also take it away, not in your time, but in His time. That power demands of its subjects a great humility of the kind that has gone forgotten in the "free" world. Your freedom has not made you a better person has it? You are now also free to be a horrible person and get away with it. Strange that our freedom has not brought us a better world or made us better people.
What you miss is that God is brutally honest concerning what happens on earth. Satan on the other hand deceives and hides behind lies. But run to Satan your buddy. See if he can save you from a sure death to come. God has provided for those who understand and believe a way out of this wicked world. You may be happy in this world, like a pig in dung, and that is all you will ever have apart from the arguments that only sounds clever to those who has chosen death over life.
God's word is not a book of science. It is a book that explains in many ways and with many pictures, that human beings are bad (that's fairly obvious except to the self-conceited). It paints a picture of life and like the best art works that picture is honest and pulls no punches. Then it is a spiritual picture that can only be grasped by a spiritual person. Mocker and lovers of Satan certainly will not get it. Mockers are a bit like those who shun a meal by preconceived ideas but who has personally never tasted it.
God said that to those who are clean, that everything is clean, and to the filthy everything is filthy. And it refers to a state of being, but I am sure you mockers will find a way of degrading truth again. To understand God and his word requires a changed heart from being mockingly haughty and wicked to being humbled before the presence of God. That is the hardest thing for modern self-fulfilled and self-righteous "free" people to do. But when you know God you understand that He is good and loving, and you will also know that you are nothing despite your own self-important and inflated opinion of yourself. A heart filled with the same hatred that Satan has for God can never grasp God's goodness and the peace that follows faith in God as the Creator, Savior, and giver of life.
Mockers, you play with words from your so-called clever minds. God tolerates this because He is patient and do not wish you ill. But if you read more of His Word that you mock so readily, you will find that to shun that patience will hold a dear price to your eternal soul. Perhaps, before you mock again, consider the guilt you heap upon your guilt.
Mon Jun 15, 07:10:00 AM 2009
maneater said...
Ahh, christians are so entertaining!!! lol
Talk about taking the bible out of contex...lol Christians are the only ones guilty of that. Only mindless idiots can read the bible and see nothing but good in its god. The bible clearly says that god told moses, that whatever land his feet land on, he is demanded to take it by violent force and leave none alive, except young virgin girls. Only a mindless idiot would think that, that is love..lol
Give me a fucking break!
You christians should be ashamed of yourselves!!!!! Shame on you! Killing others for their land and virgins is bad. Killing others that do not believe as you do, is bad.
No wonder christians are more likely to commit violent crimes, than atheists and non-believers.
Christians believe it is ok to kill for land that does NOT belong to them and see nothing wrong with raping young virgins..SHAME ON YOU!!! I guess that explains why christians are more likely to rape and molest children as well commit violent acts.
SHAME ON YOU CHRISTIANS!!!
Oh yeah, and HAIL SATAN!!
Tue Jun 16, 09:20:00 AM 2009
Max said...
Hey folks, keep down the polemic discussion here. The bible is just a book written by humans to explain things they couldn't explain. A storybook, so to speak. Still, the fact that the Bible is no more than that does not negate the existence of a god in some form (and be it that the belief in a god itself fulfils the purpose of said supposed god) - just like there is nothing wrong with honoring a leader and philosopher like Jesus of Nazareth for his ideas and deeds.
Anyway, interesting kill count, makes you wonder what the authors of the Bible intended. I suppose it has to do with deciding over life and death being the ultimate sign of authority, therefore this sets Jahwe up as a much more potent authority than it does Satan. Also, he is ranking sixth on the list of history's most brutal killers (a list headed by Mao Zedong).
Sun Jun 28, 02:13:00 PM 2009
Lyle said...
The truth of the Bible is provable. If you have faith, you can drink poison and yet live. If you are sick, God/Jesus will heal you.
The fact that Christians die of poisoning and obituary columns are filled with Christian cancer victims proves the nonsense of the Bible. Even more nonsense is the notion of hospitals being named after "saints" and having an admission question about one's religion...if their faith worked as promised in the Bible they wouldn't need a hospital. Such stupidity.
Sat Aug 01, 06:33:00 AM 2009
jazz said...
Sounds like god and new world order are one in the same.......its all about the power...always has, and always will be. Ive often wanted to ask the die hard believers in god why if god didn't save any of the 6 million men,women, and children of the unspeakable torture and experiments and slow deaths under the reign of Hitler, why do you think he would save you?
Sun Aug 02, 07:10:00 AM 2009
Sawyme said...
Well I can see how great idiots have written comments for this post. You all say that God killed more than Satan and that god is much more evil than the Satan. from your point I can clearly understand that a terrorist who kills a hundreds of people is a much greater person than a true soldier who kills hundreds of people in order to protect his nation. what a great educated geniuses you people are!!!!!!!! and by the way I am not here, trying to protect God. I am here to say that don't disgrace god by your foul thoughts and ideas. and dear people God exists beyond Christianity.
Tue Aug 04, 11:26:00 AM 2009
Curt said...
I'd be very interested to know who Satan's 50 extra kills were.
Also, Sawyme, please find me records of any single soldier killing over 10 people, let alone "hundreds of people." Life isn't like it seems in video games. In my opinion, if a soldier did kill more people than a terrorist, he IS more evil.
By the way, we can all see "what a great educated geniuses" you are by your impeccable grammar and logic in your post.
Fri Aug 07, 04:27:00 PM 2009
betty said...
Fear. That's what the descriptions of blood, slaughter, and rape are all about. Fear. Christians don't love god. They fear him. They fear retribution and hell therefore they behave themselves and do exactly as they're told. The new Roman Empire is the Roman Catholic Church. Which then spread to other christian faiths. And don't forget the donation plate!
Mon Aug 24, 12:31:00 PM 2009
ivanlibya said...
Ha! Great kill counter! As for the people arguing with Christians, there's no point, the fact they believe in the Bible and God's existance should tell you that we, they and us, don't operate on the same level; common sense vs. misguided optimism.
Mon Aug 31, 11:33:00 AM 2009
Mark Lawton said...
Ahh!
On thing you people have forgotten is that God has a timetable, and what we have here appears to be a mere hiatus in the events in the stream of time...
The bible is quite correct, but I recommend you to read more here...
That's the truth but you are just not ready for it yet maybe!
http://www.tangotango.org.uk/
The bible is bang on time, and we are in the "quiet before the storm"
Time to gather pace for those who are ready for the final phases of this system!
http://www.mark-lawton.com
Sun Sep 20, 01:22:00 PM 2009
Nick said...
Yes people, learn to read the bible correctly. And while you're doing it, please remember that 2+2=5.
To Danielle,
I just love the eye argument, if we were created as it says in the bible, to be over or better than every animal, then why would the biblical god give the most advanced eye of any creature (even ours) to a shrimp?
http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2008-03/eye-mantis-shrimp
Sun Oct 11, 12:07:00 PM 2009
nosloppyagape said...
hey, how many hebrews you think died at the hand of other hebrews. jewish people complain so many outsiders have killed them over the years, but im wondering how many jews have been killed by other jews.
Wed Oct 14, 08:32:00 PM 2009
Zahid Mahmood said...
Great blog and nice post I am trying to maintain a list of cute blogs. Thanks and nice collection of blogs. I’m going to have to browse through those. it’s nice I can come and read your blog.
ccna ccent
Thu Oct 22, 09:28:00 AM 2009
unashamed said...
maneater said...
Ahh, christians are so entertaining!!! lol Talk about taking the bible out of contex...lol Christians are the only ones guilty of that. Only mindless idiots can read the bible and see nothing but good in its god...
"Truth, like Christ, age after age, is on its trial before men; but while it is being tried, it is really trying everything. Passed on from one tribunal to another, from high-priests to rulers, truth, like Him who was the Truth, is always on its first appearance misunderstood, misrepresented, and soon rejected as a deceiver, even by many who should be foremost to welcome it. Yet it is, by the very judgment men pass upon it, revealing where and what they are, and sifting all who come in contact with it. In this trial, some, least valued by the world for their many weaknesses and griefs, are prepared to recognise as divine that which the learned and self-satisfied agree to cast out. These poor ones, attracted to the truth, though they little understand it, and at times may even doubt and deny it, first giving themselves to it, and only so fully receiving it, cannot but in due time become its witnesses, content, even if it is mocked, misrepresented, slain, and buried out of sight, for the sake of Truth Himself, to be cast out and misrepresented with it, along with the faith that, spite of its rejection, it must yet prevail, and though slain, will surely rise again...
Little do modern critics seem aware, that while they make themselves both jury and judge, and declare and decide what is and is not truth, they themselves are really being tried by what appears to be on trial, and, like the judges of the Truth of old, are showing by their treatment of that which is before them, exactly where and what they are."
Sun Jan 03, 06:39:00 PM 2010
Leon said...
God was merciful for destroying those people. In most cases they were participating all kinds of abominable practices, including child sacrifices. The end of this life is not the end of the story. God wants all humankind to have eternal life and become a part of his family. 1Tim. 2.4 "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." God in his mercy will resurrect these people and they will have an opportunity to know Christ and receive him as their Lord and Saviour. Please read my blogs if you get a chance. savedbyfaithinchrist.wordpress.com
Tue Jan 26, 05:51:00 PM 2010
The Big Blue Frog said...
Even if you just go by the accounts in the Bible, it's obvious that everything that God has ever made ends up broken. How do we reconcile a perfect, all-powerful, all-knowing being with the inability to make anything that works right the first time.
Mon Feb 08, 02:24:00 PM 2010
daniel john said...
As supernatural creatures are the products of our thinking, we are responsible for all the deaths. Sometimes some of the more benighted amongst us attribute these deaths to god, sometimes to satan.
Term Paper
Wed Feb 17, 09:37:00 PM 2010
daniel john said...
Thanks for sharing. I really admire this.
Term Paper
Wed Feb 17, 09:39:00 PM 2010
itchie said...
Do you have a list on how many men did Moses and his followers killed?
Fri Apr 09, 08:34:00 PM 2010
Aminul said...
you guys have no morals or purpose in life without God.
If i didn't believe in God, I'd do anything and everything that would anything to be better and on top of others. Without Religion, this world would have a bunch of savages, not that we are bad, but some people are, and when they act like savages the rest would be forced to, because there is no such thing as morality. democracy wins, even if the choices are wrong.
http://kalamullah.com/khalidyasin.html
see the purpose of life video after your ready to leave all your predispositions behind.
Sun Apr 25, 08:31:00 AM 2010
Bobzter said...
I consider myself highly skeptical except for this one huge lapse that is believing in God. One may consider it silly or childish but if at least one thing I'm sure of: it does not hurt. I'm cool with Him and still not stupid to go on either crusades or jihads pretending it's his will. Now, about the death roll, I could not care less. The way I see this glimpse of life we can take some joy of, is granted from creation. God gave life, death came from darkness. Call it punishment as you fell oppressed by God's "cruelty", as I'm not I call it just free will. Death is too overrated anyway. So if you want to estimate in death numbers, sum every living existence on God and every death to Satan. You will have a draw, except for that one luck son of a bitch that went strait up! By the way stop bitching so much and go watch a sunset or something. Instead of being such a faultfinder, get some appreciation when you crave your teeth on that slice of juicy watermelon.
Mon May 24, 06:58:00 PM 2010
Michael Price said...
"Satan has killed the entire human race, he wins."
Nope, all he did was convince a couple to eat fruit. For punishment Adam is forced to work, not die. You might argue that Adam died because God threw him out of the garden, but there doesn't appear to be any evidence that Adam was immortal before he ate the fruit. Even if this was true that's another one for God, not Satan, who at worst tempted someone to do something he knew would result in God killing them.
Fri May 28, 12:39:00 AM 2010
Lanthanum said...
what bullshit.. even you hit your son when he doesn't listens to you.. same is the case ALMIGHTY warned the people but they did not listen to HIM and in turn made fun of His messengers..so the punishment is justified..and actually if you see all this with other angles then it was satan who is to be blamed for all this killings.. Shocked ..It was satan who misguided the ppl which led to this suffering of the unobliging people. so all the killings goes to the satan account and not to the ALMIGHTY account..
One more thing Read QURAN for better understanding as it is the Final words of Almighty and there is vast explanation of the times of prophets and the punishments given to evil doers..
hamza@samruz.com
http://www.jobspert.com
Mon May 31, 12:06:00 AM 2010
lhuff118 said...
Foolish, foolish man.......
“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” says the LORD.
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts.
(Isaiah 55:8-9)
Tue Jun 29, 05:23:00 AM 2010
Ryan Fishel said...
'I Am' stated: "A God who causes or allows so much death, destruction, and suffering can't be good."
Most Christians would have a problem with your statement, 'I Am.' Regarding for the moment, only the topic of God causing people's death. Let me attempt to reason plainly:
If God is altogether holy, perfect and upright in His essential nature, then His definition of goodness would be one thing.
If man is altogether corrupted in sin, morally and spiritually, then our definition of goodness would be another.
You, as a man, say killing for God wrong. On what grounds?
The Sovereign of the universe legislates His laws for His rational creatures (by way of conscience and revelation), yet we choose to rebelliously break them. Can you blame a good judge for executing just penalty for cosmic treason?
For "the soul that sins, it shall die."
Thu Jul 01, 12:25:00 AM 2010
Ryan Fishel said...
Also, if you can handle it, here are 2 of the finest sermons dealing with the topics, firstly, on war, the second on the causation of natural disasters.
Serious Reflection on War by Samuel Davies (1757):
http://www.gracegems.org/Davies/WAR.htm
Lessons from the Recent Earthquake by Samuel Davies (1756):
http://www.gracegems.org/Davies/EARTHQUAKE.htm
Thu Jul 01, 12:29:00 AM 2010
tanya said...
I would lime to say that just because you believe in god it doesn't make you stupid and just because you question gods existence or don't Believe at all it does not make you devoid of morals ethics or humanity ( as a follower of Buddhism I don't believe in god ) .
Thomas and Jonah both questioned god but were not punished by god ( I know Jonah god swallowed by a big fish but that was to take Jonah back to where god told him to go) may be because god has stated not to worship anyone but him so to question someone claiming to be god elimnates this surely (otherwise you would be worshipping alot of people in mental Heath hospitals they are filled with people claiming to be jesus and gods) I mean Thomas created the term to 'to poke holes' in someone or something I don't think ' poking holes' in the bible is a bad thing even if I was a christian as I would just be getting proof like Thomas poking Jesus s holes (no pun intended) .
To question the world around us is to find truth
Xxxx
Tue Oct 05, 07:19:00 AM 2010
tanya said...
I would lime to say that just because you believe in god it doesn't make you stupid and just because you question gods existence or don't Believe at all it does not make you devoid of morals ethics or humanity ( as a follower of Buddhism I don't believe in god ) .
Thomas and Jonah both questioned god but were not punished by god ( I know Jonah god swallowed by a big fish but that was to take Jonah back to where god told him to go) may be because god has stated not to worship anyone but him so to question someone claiming to be god elimnates this surely (otherwise you would be worshipping alot of people in mental Heath hospitals they are filled with people claiming to be jesus and gods) I mean Thomas created the term to 'to poke holes' in someone or something I don't think ' poking holes' in the bible is a bad thing even if I was a christian as I would just be getting proof like Thomas poking Jesus s holes (no pun intended) .
To question the world around us is to find truth
Xxxx
Tue Oct 05, 07:23:00 AM 2010
KJ said...
Steve Wells does not read that God is entitled to KILL and maketh alive. Yet he writes a book about how awful it is.
The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up. The LORD maketh poor, and maketh rich: he bringeth low, and lifteth up. He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD'S, and he hath set the world upon them. He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail. The adversaries of the LORD shall be broken to pieces; out of heaven shall he thunder upon them: the LORD shall judge the ends of the earth; and he shall give strength unto his king, and exalt the horn of his anointed.
(1Samuel 2:6-10)
Nor does Steve Wells read this either or understands:
Exodus 4:11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?
and
Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
and
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.
Lamentations 3:1 I am the man that hath seen affliction by the rod of his wrath.
and
Lamentations 3:38 Good and bad each happen at the command of God Most High.
and
All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits. Commit thy works unto the LORD, and thy thoughts shall be established. The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD: though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished. By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil. When a man's ways please the LORD, he maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him.
Proverbs 16:2-7
Tue Oct 26, 01:42:00 PM 2010
KJ said...
Steve Wells could not possibly have read this or he would know that God has a right to do what He pleases and no one has anything to stand upon even-though Steve Wells thinks that God must be a nice kind, loving person and pussyfooting around. No pot argues with the potter what he does to the pot. In other words: Who do you think you are ? Umm you die after you cannot live again because your body gives up or is destroyed. Is there any difference ? YOU DIE ! This is written in the word "Apollummi"
to destroy
to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
render useless
to kill
to declare that one must be put to death
metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
to destroy
to lose
as in Deuteronomy 28:63.
And it shall come to pass, that as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the LORD will rejoice over you to DESTROY (Appollummi) you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it.
Steve Wells has no clue how it is all put together and how it is all planned. Trying to scratch the surface and does not what really lies beyond in the deeper layers which is for a PURPOSE ! God first of all desires, but God arranges because we are "all" over the place with out ways of doing. God does what He must do in order to achieve the Plan of Salvation. Whether He loves,draws, changes, kills, murders, maims in that process is totally up to Him and not strange at all, if you would catch the train of His thougts. After all it is not about our body it is about our spirits that go back to God as in Ecclesiastes 12:7. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. It was He who gave it. Who cares about your body after all when you die. It decays and returns to dust. Shrug. But what about your spiritual body, eh Steve Wells.
Tue Oct 26, 01:43:00 PM 2010
Michael said...
@KJ OMG, just shut up!! (BTW does KJ stand for King James??) Anyway, 2 huge posts quoting a mythologic text doesn't make you any smarter or appear any more intelligent. Please think for yourself! We can throw quotes back and forth all day long...especially contradictory quotes from this same text. That gets us nowhere.
And as far as a "spirtual body" goes...please give some real evidence that a "spirit" exists at all!
Sun Oct 31, 03:21:00 PM 2010
Soylent said...
"you guys have no morals or purpose in life without God."
I don't believe in god and I have morals and a sense of purpose.
Christians don't generally derive their morals from the bible. Where are these christians who stone disobedient children to death, punish people for working on the sabbath and condone slavery?
To the extent that christians do derive their morals from the bible it clearly isn't helping. Atheists are WAY underrepresented among violent criminals.
YHWH is an unjust, imoral, narcisstic, childish, genocidal creep and if YHWH actually existed it is my moral duty to fight resist.
"If i didn't believe in God, I'd do anything and everything that would anything to be better and on top of others."
So... basically you're flat out admitting that you're a psychopath? Maybe the morals YHWH have rubbed off on you after all.
"Without Religion, this world would have a bunch of savages, not that we are bad, but some people are, and when they act like savages the rest would be forced to, because there is no such thing as morality."
I live in that world. It's called Sweden and only 23% of people answer yes to "do you believe there is a god?".
Sun Nov 07, 08:47:00 AM 2010
Rich050687 said...
If you evolutionist really think about it which is more ridiculous? 13.7 billion years ago a star imploded and created everything around us, or there is a living god that loves us even in our sin, that created the universe and all in it. God really doesn't care if you agree or disagree with doctrine, he is god. GOD does not answer to anyone or anything, there are none above him, thats why the bible is so brutally honest about death. Even if you don't believe in god you can't call yourself intelligent if you think that all we love, admire and hold dear came from a bacteria in the water billions and billions of years ago , its ridiculous. Tell me who can honestly say thats truth NO ONE WAS ALIVE, evolution is made up, thats why everything is label a theory. CHRISTIANS don't argue and get upset. Be Christ like and say "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."
Sun Nov 28, 01:40:00 PM 2010
myterm said...
A long time before Satan gained his paperback popularity, he was alive, ambitious, active, and achieving his objectives of deceiving, deluding, and destroying the souls of men.
Regards!
College Term Papers
Tue Nov 30, 08:59:00 PM 2010
Elephant Man said...
I just wanted to thank everyone for their input. Its been edifying. I love the back and forth disagreement, sans the Jerry Springer cartoon violence. I started reading the section about the good things in the bible and it lead to this blog. The one thing I take away from this is: love thy neighbour as thyself. That holds as words of true wisdom, no matter whatever else you believe to be true. All sides of the argument would serve themselves well by being compassionate to everyone else, regardless of how ruthless god, or Mao, turn out to be. As a former atheist/evolutionist who turned first to Buddhism and then Hinduism (laugh if you must), I believe that the universe is quite large and quite capable of comfortably supporting any and all views. Including ones we don't even know about yet. I'd love to see the skeptic's analysis of Hinduism and Buddhism. (coming soon I hope). If there's anything else I've learned, its don't be too certain about anything. Keep an open mind and respect the views of others, and play nice together.
Thu Jan 13, 10:12:00 PM 2011
ryan said...
I only have one thing to say, and that's Pascal's Wager.
The risk of not believing in God is too great to not believe in Him. When we die, if we choose to believe Jesus, we go to Heaven and live in eternity. When we die, if we choose not to believe in Jesus, We are cursed to Hell. (Not a nice thing to have happen, but hey God warned us..) But hey if we believe in Jesus, and when we die it turns out God isn't real, nothing happens, we simply decompose. So technically it's a win, win situation for us Christians. I'm just saying why risk taking the path that has a chance of eternal damnation. Logically you'd want to choose the path that has a good outcome, and a normal outcome. Think about next time you think about cursing God.
Wed Jan 26, 03:31:00 PM 2011
djl said...
I am a former catholic and i say former because after years of reading the bible and listening to catholic teachings I can no longer believe any of it anymore. The old testament should be ripped out of the bible all together due to the face it is nothing but pure superstitious nonsense. But of course the new testament is no better. Any one who can honestly say they believe what the bible says is lying to themselves. It is a total work of fiction about a self centered, blood thirsty, jealous being. If your god is going to cast judgement on all of us "sinners" at the end of time then you go ahead an believe it. If all that is true then what was the point of our creation to begin with. This all knowing being would of known at the time of our creation exactly how we were going to turn out. And i guarantee that 99 percent of you church going christians would be going to hell anyways. You act all high and mighty. You go to church then go home and beat your wife and kids, steal, curse, watch porn. Damn you christians, damn you all to hell. Well if there was one.
Fri Feb 11, 10:28:00 PM 2011
agrogers said...
>>> If your god is going to cast judgement on all of us "sinners" at the end of time then you go ahead an believe it. If all that is true then what was the point of our creation to begin with.
It is a shame they didnt teach you when you were at church that God created the universe (and you) for His own sake.
You will either make God's justice look great when you are in Hell or you will make His mercy look great when you are in heaven. I hope the later is the case! Either way, God will be glorified.
I think i can hear you saying 'egomaniac!'. The explanation is simple. All good parents want to give their children what is the best for them. It just so happens that God has created the universe such that *God Himself is the highest good anyone can have*.
So, because He is good He constantly and powerfully directs His beloved creation to Himself. Only there will people find abundant goodness.
Don't like that? I guess when you create a universe, you can set the rules :)
Cheers
Andrew
Tue Mar 01, 05:57:00 PM 2011
djl said...
For "His" own sake and when i create a universe i can set the rules. Wow!
So youre saying that this creator was bored and wanted to create some playthings that will adore and worship him(because when youre a jealous being with low self esteem thats what you want).
Obviously you have never really read the bible as most christians never really have. They just go on their lives with blinders on believing because thats what they were taught to do. Open the book(its a wonderful work of fiction) and READ IT! It must suck to have to be bribed by your creator to be good in order to stay out of hell. Talk about controlling! But all you christians claim god knows all so he knows all of you are just scared of him to begin with. It amazes me that a work of fiction like the bible written so long ago by a very small group of superstitious people that had no other way of explaining what was going on had caught on. If you were born into another culture you would have a different religion and you would be slamming christianity because you would think your religion is right and christianity is ridiculous. you are an atheist just like me but i just believe in one less god.
Sat Mar 05, 06:59:00 AM 2011
SmoveBB said...
The reality is, believers simply don't have the courage to live in a world that isn't ruled by an omnipotent parent-figure. They don't care if the figure is brutal to those they think of as 'others', they can't question the reasons behind the actions of this parent any more than a toddler understands spousal abuse. The only difference is toddlers grow up to learn about reality (hopefully) but believers never will because they lack the courage to see reality.
Tue Sep 27, 08:52:00 AM 2011
Robster said...
This god character is not much chop. How on earth did the god get a reputation for being a loving deity? Really, god's about as useful as a fart in a space suit, in that he's never actually done anything. If god is a loving version, or hateful like the muzzy version, he needs to get off the throne and actually do something.
Mon Dec 05, 10:51:00 PM 2011
DandJBrewer said...
One must first distinguish the difference between physical death and spiritual death to really determine who killed more. For Christians physical death isn't exactly punishment, we are able to leave a fallen world filled with suffering and be in the presence of the most high God without a care. On top of that, the bible declares that children don't face judgment, they go straight to heaven. With adults however, God always gave plenty of warning. For example before God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah Lot asked if he would still destroy the city if there were even 10 good people to be found, God said he wouldn't destroy the city if here were good people in it, and the good people who were in it, he commanded to leave. Satan however is responsible for the separation between man and his creator. He is the one who enabled spiritual death, a far greater tragedy than physical death. I'm no saying everything about the bible is easy to understand but that doesn't make it wrong. There is plenty of proof the the bible is what it says it is.
I suggest you read...
I Don't Have Enough Faith To Be An Atheist by Norman Geisler
Has Christianity Failed You by Ravi Zacharias
for that matter anything by Ravi Zacharias or Dr. William Lane Craig
and
Is God A Moral Monster? Understanding The God Of The Old Testament by Paul Copan
Thu Jan 12, 01:47:00 PM 2012
oz said...
why is it that christians always seem to think they have some kind of authority over everyone
the unimaginable arrogance
and then they just project their own wicked nature on atheist when they claim that without a god they would be savages
well christians please speak for yourselves
most people are good and kind because they want to not because they are afraid of going to hell
please stop projecting you wicked fantasies on everyone else
it is not very christian
the fact that you can only be nice to others because you are afraid of god and being sent to hell says a whole lot more about you than it does about us
study some psycology and in particular narssisistic personallity disorder
these are all the symptoms
Tue May 15, 10:11:00 AM 2012
aaroux said...
OZ, you do not show an attitude any different from the Christians you attack. We are all guilty. Not just Christians or just atheists. It is before God and not before one another that we stand guilty. Ever heard of the parable of the beam and the speck? We will all see less specks in others when we take out the beams from our eyes.
It is so true that we cannot claim to love God when we hate men, and many many Christians, including myself, are guilty of this. It is only in Jesus, the God-man that we see perfect love.
Thu May 17, 05:35:00 AM 2012
AEHebert said...
I am just a kid who doesn't know what to believe. I've read every post hoping that an answer would come to me but still nothing. Both sides of this argument has good points and both claim to be right but how will I know? I wish I could talk to someone who can relate to how I feel instead of some stubborn fool who is convinced they are right and won't try to understand their opposition. This world is so confusing :/
Sun May 20, 09:23:00 PM 2012
zzo38computer said...
You have made a statistical error. God is described far more in the Bible than Satan, therefore you will certainly get a larger number whether or not God did kill more people. I am not saying your conclusion is necessarily wrong, but it is not necessarily correct either, and your argument for it is wrong due to statistical error.
Sun May 20, 11:43:00 PM 2012
Chreiya said...
http://tinyurl.com/JoSMain
You are right in that Satan is not the "bad guy."
Christianity is a lie... a lie told and spread repeatedly until it became the truth, a lie to slander the original gods.
Thu May 24, 04:08:00 PM 2012
Rational said...
A basic rule of psychiatry; "Don't argue with a delusion."
Sun Jun 24, 07:09:00 AM 2012
Beautiful Girls said...
Let me told you, if I can go back in that time, I would wrote the same bible with more nicely and gentle god image, and I will be god, How can u explain that god create the universe in 6 days? That is totally busshit, then dont you say 6 days of god is different of normal day? or How you gonna explain where is the light on fisrt day if there is no sun and moon ( sun and moon was created on third day according to the bible), then dont you say god is light? lol you guys christian just say, god has power to do anything? You know Look at the bible at this Deuteronomy 32:21; Joshua 24:19; 1 Kings 14:22; Ezekiel 8:3, 5; Ezekiel 16:38; Ezekiel 16:42; Ezekiel 23:25; Ezekiel 36:5; Ezekiel 38:19; Nahum 1:2; Zechariah 1:14; Zechariah 8:2; Zephaniah 3:8 <--- Read this word by word, then what ? he teach people to be kindness and he couldnt do it. god is just a shit guy on the toilet and write the holy shit bilble.
In the bible he say, if you not believe in god, even you're really good person you still go to hell. How come a god could be like that. Let imagine your son dont know you're his father. Someone told him you is his father but he not believe, and he believe another not you. Then you want your son to go to hell. You know, CHRISTIAN. IF THERE IS A GOD LIKE THAT, I WOULD LIKE TO GO TO HELL, I'LL FIND HIM, AND KILL HIM.
Tue Jan 22, 11:26:00 PM 2013
Joel Ricklefs said...
I am a man of statistics. Although statistics doesn't always tell the truth, it certainly sheds light on the situation. Thanks for this post. You might want to add a post comparing how many people Christians have killed versus how many people Atheists have killed. Might be an interesting comparison.
Thu Jul 18, 11:41:00 AM 2013
exentrik said...
@AEHebert, I know how you feel. I don't know what to believe, either. I can't answer the God question so I let myself wonder about it while I focus on another question: How can I make myself happy? Since others' feelings rub off on me, I also ask, How can I do more good for others and cause less harm?
I spend so much time trying to answer these questions, and act on the answers I find, that I tend to stay out of debates about God. My search is often exhilarating, comforting, and humbling. It's painful at times but almost always free of regret. If you search for answers to questions like mine, you might get similar results. I wish you luck.
Thu Jan 30, 09:23:00 PM 2014
sara jay said...
Impressive work I like your post you have shared.
geoessay
Fri Apr 25, 12:48:00 AM 2014
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03 January 2009How many has God killed?
I kill ... I wound ... I will make my arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh. -- Deuteronomy 32:39-42
How many people did God kill in the Bible?
It's impossible to say for sure, but plenty. How many did God drown in the flood or burn to death in Sodom and Gomorrah? How many first-born Egyptians did he kill? There's just no way to count them all. (But see here for a rough estimate.)
But sometimes the Bible tells us exactly how many were killed by God. Here's a list of those that I can find. (If you find any that I've missed, let me know and I'll add them to the list.)
So far I come up with a total of 2,316,428 (not including, at least in some cases, women and children). Verse Number killed Cumulative total
1 God drowns everyone of earth (except Noah and his family) Genesis 7:23 ? ?
2 God rains fire and brimstone on Sodom and Gomorrah, killing everyone. Genesis 19:24 ? ?
3 Lot's wife for looking back Genesis 19:26 1 1
4 Er who was "wicked in the sight of the Lord" Genesis 38:7, 1 Chronicles 2:3 1 2
5 Onan for spilling his seed Genesis 38:10 1 3
6 A 7 year, world-wide famine Genesis 41:25-54 ? 3
7 7th Egyptian Plague: Hail Exodus 9:25 ? 3
8 God kills every Egyptian firstborn child. Exodus 12:29-30 ? 3
9 God drowns Egyptian army Exodus 14:8-26 600 603
10 God and Moses help Joshua kill the Amalekites Exodus 17:13 ? 603
11 Israelites for dancing naked around Aaron's golden calf Exodus 32:27-28, 35 3000 3,603
12 God plagued the people because of the calf that Aaron made Exodus 32:35 ? 3,603
13 Aaron's sons for offering strange fire before the Lord Leviticus 10:1-3; Numbers 3:4, 26:61 2 3,605
14 A blasphemer Leviticus 24:10-23 1 3,606
15 God burned people to death for complaining Numbers 11:1 ? 3,606
16 God sent "a very great plague" for complaining about the food. Numbers 11:33 ? 3,606
17 God killed ten scouts with a plague. Numbers 14:35-36 10 3,616
18 A man who gathered firewood on the sabbath Numbers 15:32-36 1 3,617
19 Korah, Dathan, and Abiram (and their families) Numbers 16:27 3 3,620
20 Burned to death for offering incense Numbers 16:35 250 3,870
21 For complaining Numbers 16:49 14,700 18,570
22 Massacre of the Aradites Numbers 21:1-3 ? 18,570
23 For complaining about the lack of food and water, God sent fiery serpents to bite the people. Numbers 21:6 ? 18,570
24 God delivers the Bashanites into Moses' hands and Moses kills everyone "until there was none left alive." Numbers 21:34-35 ? 18,570
25 Phinehas impales a mixed-race couple having sex Numbers 25:6-8 2 18,572
26 Israelites for "committing whoredom with the daughters of Moab" Numbers 25:9 24,000 42,572
27 Midianite massacre (32,000 virgins were kept alive) Numbers 31:1-35 ? 42,572
28 God kills the entire Israelite army Deuteronomy 2:14-16 ? 42,572
29 The slaughter of the Zamzummim, Horim, Avim, and the Caphtorim Deuteronomy 2:21-22 ? 42,572
30 God hardened the king of Heshbon's heart so that the Israelites could massacre his people. (included several cities) Deuteronomy 2:33-34 ? 42,572
31 All the men, women, and children in 60 cities Deuteronomy 3:3-6 ? 42,572
32 Massacre of Jericho Joshua 6:21 ? 42,572
33 Achan (and his his sons and daughters) for taking the accursed thing Joshua 7:10-12, 24-26 1 42,573
34 The Ai Massacre Joshua 8:1-25 12,000 54,573
35 God slaughters the Amorites and even chases them "along the way" as they try to escape. Joshua 10:10-11 ? 54,573
36 Joshua kills 5 kings and hangs their dead bodies on trees Joshua 10:24-26 5 54,578
37 Massacre of 7 kingdoms Joshua 10:28-42 ? 54,578
38 The remaining kingdoms Joshua 11:8-12 10,000 64,578
39 Massacre of the Anakim Joshua 11:20-21 ? 64,578
40 God delivers the Canaanites and Perizzites Judges 1:4 ? 64,578
41 The Jerusalem Massacre Judges 1:8 ? 64,578
42 Ten Massacres, a wedding, and some God-proof iron chariots Judges 1:9-25 ? 64,578
43 The LORD delivered Chushanrishathaim Judges 3:7-10 ? 64,578
44 Ehud delivers a message from God: a knife in the belly Judges 3:15-22 1 64,579
45 God delivers 10,000 Moabites Judges 3:28-29 10,000 74,579
46 Barak and God Massacre the Canaanites Judges 4:14 ? 74,579
47 Jael pounds a tent stake through a sleeping man's head Judges 4:18-25 1 74,580
48 God forces Midianite soldiers to kill each other Judges 7:22, 8:10 120,000 194,580
49 A city is massacred and 1000 burn to death because of God's evil spirit Judges 9:23-57 ? 194,580
50 The Ammonite massacre Judges 11:29-33 ? 194,580
51 Jephthah's daughter Judges 11:34-39 1 194,581
52 The spirit of the Lord comes on Samson and he murders 30 men for their clothes Judges 14:19 30 194,611
53 The Spirit of the Lord comes upon Samson and he kills 1000 men with the jawbone of an ass Judges 15:14-15 1,000 195,611
54 Samson's God-assisted act of terrorism Judges 16:27-30 3,000 198,611
55 "The Lord smote Benjamin" Judges 20:35-37 65,100 263,711
56 God kills Eli's sons 1 Samuel 2:25, 34; 4:11 2 263,713
57 God smote three cities with hemorrhoids in their secret parts 1 Samuel 5:1-12 ? 263,713
58 For looking into the ark of the Lord 1 Samuel 6:19 50,070 313,783
59 The LORD thundered with a great thunder upon the Philistines 1 Samuel 7: ? 313,783
60 The Ammonite Massacre (and another God-inspired body part message) 1 Samuel 7:11-13 ? 313,783
61 Jonathan's very first slaughter (not counting the one before) 1 Samuel 14:12 20 313,803
62 God forces the Philistine soldiers to kill each other. 1 Samuel 14:20 ? 313,803
63 The Amalekite Genocide 1 Samuel 15:2-3 ? 313,803
64 Samuel hacks Agag to pieces before the Lord 1 Samuel 15:32-33 1 313,804
65 God delivers the Philistines. 1 Samuel 23:2-5 ? 313,804
66 "The Lord smote Nabal." 1 Samuel 25:38 1 313,805
67 David spends the day killing Amalekites 1 Samuel 30:17 ? 313,805
68 God has the Philistines kill Israelite soldiers 1 Samuel 31:6, 1 Chronicles 10:6 ? 313,805
69 Saul and his three sons 1 Samuel 31:6, 1 Chronicles 10:6 4 313,809
70 God delivers the Philistines to David (from the front) 2 Samuel 5:19, 25 ? 313,809
71 God delivers the Philistines to David (from behind) 2 Samuel 5:19, 25 ? 313,809
72 Uzzah for trying to keep the ark from falling 2 Samuel 6:6-7, 1 Chronicles 13:9-10 1 313,810
73 David and Bathsheba's baby boy 2 Samuel 12:14-18 1 313,811
74 God sent a three-year famine because of something Saul did. 2 Samuel 21:1 ? 313,811
75 Saul's two sons and five grandsons hung up before the Lord 2 Samuel 21:6-9 7 313,818
76 God kills 70,000 men because David did a census that God told him to do 2 Samuel 24:15, 1 Chronicles 21:14 70,000 383,818
77 A lion is sent by God to kill a prophet for believing another prophet's lie 1 Kings 13:1-24 1 383,818
78 Jeroboam's son 1 Kings 14:17 1 383,820
79 Jeroboam's family 1 Kings 15:29 ? 383,820
80 Baasha's family and friends 1 Kings 16:11-12 ? 383,820
81 The first God-assisted slaughter of the Syrians 1 Kings 20:20-21 383,820
82 God killed 100,000 Syrians for calling him a God of the hills 1 Kings 20:28-29 100,000 483,820
83 God makes a wall fall on Syrian soldiers 1 Kings 20:30 27,000 510,820
84 God sent a lion to kill a man for not smiting a prophet 1 Kings 20:35-36 1 510,821
85 Ahab for not killing a captured king 1 Kings 20:42, 22:35 1 510,822
86 51 men are burned to death by God for asking Elijah to come down from his hill 2 Kings 1:10 51 510,873
87 Another 51 men are burned to death by God for asking Elijah to come down from his hill 2 Kings 1:12 51 510,924
88 Ahaziah is killed for asking the wrong god 2 Kings 1:2-4, 17; 2 Chronicles 22:7-9 1 510,925
89 God sent two bears to kill 42 children for making fun of Elisha's bald head 2 Kings 2:23-24 42 510,967
90 God delivers the Moabites 2 Kings 3:18-25 ? 510,967
91 God calls for a seven year famine. 2 Kings 8:1 ? 510,967
92 Jehoram of Israel 2 Kings 9:24 1 510,968
93 Jezebel 2 Kings 9:33-37 1 510,969
94 Ahab's 70 sons 2 Kings 10:6-10 70 511,039
95 Ahab's hometown family and friends 2 Kings 10:11 ? 511,039
96 Ahab's family in Samaria 2 Kings 10:17 ? 511,039
97 God sent lions to kill "some" foreigners for not fearing him enough 2 Kings 17:25-26 ? 511,039
98 Sleeping Assyrian soldiers 2 Kings 19:35; Isaiah 37:36 185,000 696,039
99 God caused Sennacherib to be killed by his sons 2 Kings 19:37 1 696,040
100 Just another holy war 1 Chronicles 5:18-22 ? 696,040
101 God killed a half million Israelite soldiers 2 Chronicles 13:15-17 500,000 1,196,040
102 Jeroboam 2 Chronicles 13:20 1 1,196,041
103 The Lord smote the Ethiopians. 2 Chronicles 14:9-14 1,000,000 2,196,041
104 Everyone helped to destroy each other 2 Chronicles 20:22-25 ? 2,196,041
105 God kills Jehoram of Judah by making his bowels fall out 2 Chronicles 21:14-19 1 2,196,042
106 God kills Jehoram's sons 2 Chronicles 22:1 ? 2,196,042
107 Joash, the princes of Judah, and the Judean army 2 Chronicles 24:20-25 ? 2,196,042
108 God destroys Amaziah 2 Chronicles 25:20-22 ? 2,196,042
109 God delivered Ahaz into the hand of the king of Syria 2 Chronicles 28:5 ? 2,196,042
110 120,000 soldiers killed for forsaking God 2 Chronicles 28:6 120,000 2,316,042
111 God delivered the Israelites into the hand of the Chaldeans. 2 Chronicles 36:16-17 ? 2,316,042
112 God and Satan kill Job's children and servants Job 1:1-19 10 2,316,052
113 Ezekiel's wife Ezekiel 24:15-18 1 2,316,053
114 Ananias and Sapphira Acts 5:1-10 2 2,316,055
115 Herod Acts 12:23 1 2,316,056
116 Jesus Eph 5:2,
Heb 10:10,
1 Pet 1:19-20,
Rev 13:8 1 2,316,057
Posted by Steve Wells at 1/03/2009 12:19:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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19 comments:
Swampdog said...
Steve, this is some of the most excellent research on the topic I've come across in a long time! How, I've often wondered, can this kind of scholarship not be more readily available after more than 2000 years of playing around with these stories? Surely you're not the first to do this, but I can scarcely find anything like it at Amazon.com etc. Keep up the good work.
Sat Feb 21, 10:14:00 AM 2009
Steve Crapo said...
So with those numbers, I would be curious to see how god stacks up in a top 10 list with Hitler, Genghis Khan, Stalin, Chairman Mao, etc... I would guess he is close to the top of the list.
Thu Apr 23, 10:10:00 PM 2009
tom said...
Actually, in the broader sense, every human being were killed by their own sins, and can this be accredited to God's punishment too?
Sat May 23, 05:19:00 PM 2009
Matt said...
Outstanding work. The fact that these killings are only those actually numbered in the Bible is chilling. I don't understand how Christains and Jews can claim that Islam is the violent religioin.
Wed Jun 03, 08:09:00 AM 2009
Fragged Mind said...
Pharaoh and 600 Captains (plus entire army)...that should be 601 confirmed.
Fri Jul 10, 05:45:00 AM 2009
HeavyAxe said...
Which translation are you using? I have Luther's here and Numeri (Numbers) 16:49 is just not in there. Numeri 16 ends with the 250 men burned alive by Yahweh Hitler's uber awsome crazyness at Numeri 16:35.
Is this a mistake here?
In case I'm wrong, can s.b. help me find it?
Tue Aug 04, 08:20:00 AM 2009
Jassifer said...
Technically, we could say that God has killed everyone who has died since earth was created. God told Adam and Eve while in the Garden of Eden to be fruitful and multiply, which they did not, but eventually they would have. When Eve ate the forbidden fruit all creatures (not just humans, I don't find it fair to disregard the animals), whether born yet or not, eres given mortality. Had Eve not of eaten the forbidden fruit, we would all be living in Eden today, with immortality. Therefore, the inventor of death has taken all of the deaths that have occurred since. This should shoot the ending total up a little more, probably impossible to say how many people have lived and died since that time.
Wed Aug 05, 04:53:00 PM 2009
doubleroo said...
Wow! Great site. That was exactly the info I was looking for. You are added to favorites :-)
I was surprised to find no reference to witch hunts, approx 9 million victims. Perhaps I haven't looked closely enough yet.
Tue Aug 18, 07:27:00 PM 2009
Daniel said...
doubleroo, are you saying you can't find anything about witch hunts in the Bible or in the list? either way, there are no "9 million victim" witch hunts in the Bible. if you're referring to the witch hunts in the middle ages, that has nothing to do with God ordering that to happen. it's an entirely different situation started by the roman catholic church, which is a separate part from God altogether. what they did was murder and propaganda against, at the time, modernizing of healing practices. as for the other "killings" God puts justice on the people that have gone against Him. what would you do if you were God in the same position?
these people have brought it on themselves, and the fact that He hasn't taken justice on the whole world is just an act of grace.
lucky for you. and for us all that we have a graceful and merciful God who cares for us, even when we reject Him.
Tue Sep 15, 03:18:00 PM 2009
Steve Wells said...
Daniel,
"...if you're referring to the witch hunts in the middle ages, that has nothing to do with God ordering that to happen."
Really? I guess you haven't read Exodus 22:18. The Catholic church was just following God's order: "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." (And the Protestants didn't ignore God's "graceful and merciful" command in Exodus 22:18 either.)
Tue Sep 15, 04:27:00 PM 2009
ManyBooks said...
God and his son must be chompin' at the bit for the Apocalypse - BILLIONS more to murder! Satan better pick up the pace if he wants to be a true contender.
(This site is the best - we appreciate the incredibly diligent research and esp. how it's presented.)
Tue Nov 10, 12:49:00 PM 2009
Nahuel said...
This article is EXCELLENT. Great job.
Sun Jan 03, 12:15:00 PM 2010
K said...
The numbered list is shorter than it should be.
Joshua 12:9-24 lists the 31 kings killed individually. You mentioned Jericho and Ai individually, but grouped the other 29.
Instead of #37 (7 kings), why not call that #37-#43? And instead of #38 (22 kings), call that #44-#65?
Thu Mar 11, 07:33:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Thanks for the suggestion, K.
And you're right. The list could be a lot longer. But since God is a mass murderer, I'm trying to group the killings into killing events as described in the Bible. So if the Bible lumps a bunch of killings into one killing event, I do too.
I don't want the list to become so long that no one even tries to read it.
Thu Mar 11, 07:49:00 AM 2010
Free_Spirit said...
I do not understand...we are leaving in a time where the average person is educated enough to know that the Bible was written by writers long ago who looked at the world differently compared to how we see it now. Their writings are their own accounts of what happened, hence there is sure to be some untruth in certain parts. The collective works form the Bible, people read and interpret accordingly depending on faith. Christianity has its own black past, but it does not mean that the 'son be hanged for the father's crimes'. Christianity, the faith practiced today, is not a violent and militant faith. People tend to claim certain events as God's doing, maybe even those in the Bible. God may or may not have killed people, but He surely is not a murderer. Evil resides in this world of ours. We dwell with the devils and the angels, that is true. To doubt the existence of either, is to doubt the existence of God.
Sun Oct 09, 07:55:00 PM 2011
Free_Spirit said...
I do not understand...we are leaving in a time where the average person is educated enough to know that the Bible was written by writers long ago who looked at the world differently compared to how we see it now. Their writings are their own accounts of what happened, hence there is sure to be some untruth in certain parts. The collective works form the Bible, people read and interpret accordingly depending on faith. Christianity has its own black past, but it does not mean that the 'son be hanged for the father's crimes'. Christianity, the faith practiced today, is not a violent and militant faith. People tend to claim certain events as God's doing, maybe even those in the Bible. God may or may not have killed people, but He surely is not a murderer. Evil resides in this world of ours. We dwell with the devils and the angels, that is true. To doubt the existence of either, is to doubt the existence of God.
Sun Oct 09, 07:56:00 PM 2011
dani said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Sun May 26, 10:28:00 AM 2013
dani said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Sun May 26, 10:28:00 AM 2013
dani said...
Ever thought about this one? God=died one time, Satan=died not once
or this one:
God=created everyone, Satan=created no one?
Sun May 26, 10:29:00 AM 2013
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28 February 2009Onan spilled it on the ground (so the Lord killed him, too)
And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him. And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife... And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground... And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also. Genesis 38:7-10
This is one of my favorite Bible stories.
God kills Er for being wicked, and then kills Er's brother, Onan, for ejaculating outside the vagina of his dead brother's wife.
I think you can see what God was thinking here.
But if not, listen to Pastor Steven L. Anderson. He'll explain it all for you.
Here's an excerpt.
Tonight I want to look at this story about what caused God to kill somebody.
I mean, we're talking about a man who did one thing wrong that we know of in the whole Bible. I mean, one thing was mentioned that he did that was amiss, and yet God took it upon himself to personally kill him.
Now ask yourself this question.
How many people in the Bible did God personally kill?
Now that's a good question.
I counted 2,552,452 that God killed directly or indirectly (only included those that the Bible gave exact numbers for) and 25 million or so (with rough estimates when exact numbers are unknown).
But how many people did God kill directly? That, I haven't yet counted.
I guess I better get busy and do that.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
God's next killing: God's seven-year, world-wide famine
Posted by Steve Wells at 2/28/2009 08:32:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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8 comments:
Ian G. said...
Damn, I was hoping he was talking about the Masters of the Universe. That's the only "He-Man" I know!
Sat Feb 28, 01:16:00 PM 2009
Ian G. said...
OK, I've watched the whole thing and it's DEEPLY disturbing. I was raised Catholic and the priests were never like this lunatic, and I really, really hope for the sake of this country that the vast majority of Baptists are reasonable people.
One other thought:
Anyone else notice that in the totalitarian context of Christianity, that Satan is sort of a Leon Trotsky to God's Stalin? I mean, we're never quite told why Satan is so bad, but the commissars like Comrade Anderson here rant about Satan day and night. I guess (like the Soviets) that they're afraid people might try to find the truth themselves. I did, and now I don't believe in God at all.
Sat Feb 28, 02:12:00 PM 2009
Star said...
I was also disappointed it was the wrong He-man
As for the story, that guy shrieks the words 'what did he do wrong?' so vehemently I assume he secretly sympathises with Oman, or he's just frustrated about the moral of the story...
I like your blog =)
Come have a look at mine sometime- www.starless-midnight.blogspot.com
Mon Mar 02, 02:19:00 AM 2009
Brian_E said...
Precious. I really do love the brick testament illustrations - they bring the stories to life that words just can't accomplish.
Makes me think of this book, Illustrated Stories From The Bible (that they won't tell you in sunday school). When I saw the cover for this book I just had to get it, and I wasn't disappointed. Laughed my ass off!
Mon Mar 02, 06:52:00 AM 2009
FrodoSaves said...
God kills Er for being wicked, and then kills Er's brother, Onan, for ejaculating outside the vagina of his dead brother's wife.
I actually choked on some food when I read this. In a good way.
Fri Mar 06, 03:46:00 AM 2009
Timothy said...
"He could just have Tamar spit in his face, and be done with it" - Comrade Anderson( I like that, and what with early Christianity in the Bible sounding exactly like Stalin's Russia, look to Peter taking up all the money from the people, and killing those two who decide "Maybe this isn't such a good idea, maybe we'll save something in case this doesn't pan out...", Christianity is a lot like Stalin's communism...)
Taking the context of the time, the whole "spitting in his face" would seem to me that it would have been a very bad thing, something akin to castration today... Yeah, he really had a lot of choice in that matter.
"You think I'm crazy, or something [. . .] HEY, THIS IS THE BIBLE I'M PREACHING" - Comrade Anderson
The Bible does have the tendency to make people sound insane...
You'd think that just because you don't have a child every time semen comes out of you there has to be a child as the product, or you'll never be able to have children again...
Thu Apr 30, 06:36:00 PM 2009
Prometheus said...
Every time I see the name Onan I think of the Farside Cartoon with a drawing of a chubby nerdy looking kid wearing a t-shirt with the words "Friends of Onan" on it.
Sat Oct 10, 03:34:00 AM 2009
Peter said...
I've seen a few of these "Anderson Tapes" before, and he comes across as an unhinged, narrow-minded bigot, with serious rage and control issues.
In his "chewers of cud, cloven hoof" sermon, he tells of a plane journey he took where the "male queer stewardess" [HUH?] was plying the guy next to him with booze, supposedly to "extort" a big tip.
As he continues the story he refers to the aforementioned male stewardess [SIC] as a "stinking faggot", and shouts, "yes he is, and if you don't like that then you can go to a different church, 'cause at this church we don't mollycoddle to a bunch of QUEERS!" and actually kicks the front pew (pretty hard!) in anger.
He seriously does *not* like gays, although methinks the gentleman... lets just say he reminds me of that Col. Fitts character in American Beauty. Looks a bit like him too, with that military haircut.
Then there's his multiple "innocent victim of police bullies" videos, also on YouTube, where he deliberately tries to provoke cops into over-reacting.
And the one where he holds a book-burning, except the book is the bible (but the heretical New King James version not the god-approved original King James version).
There's more, much more, but suffice to say he manages to piss off more christians than anyone else, as he gives the whole bunch a bad name.
I think somebody needs a hug (but not from me, sorry).
p.s. This blog's great. I emailed a link to a friend in England.
Mon Jan 11, 05:06:00 PM 2010
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27 February 2009Er was wicked in the sight of the Lord (so the Lord slew him)
And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him. Genesis 38:7
This is the first of God's named murder victims.
We know his name (Er), his father's name (Judah), his mother's name (Shuah), and his wife's name (Tamar). And we know that "he was wicked in the sight of the Lord; and the Lord slew him." But that's it.
God killed Er for doing something, but the Bible doesn't say what it was. So what did Er do?
Did he get drunk and lie around naked in his tent and then curse his unborn grandson (and all of his descendants) with slavery because his son saw him drunk and naked? No that was Noah, "a preacher of righteousness".
Did he abandon his first son to die in the desert and then show his willingness to murder his second son for God as a human sacrifice? No that was Abraham, a perfect Friend of God.
Did he offer his two virgin daughters to a sex-crazed mob of angel rapers and then get drunk and impregnate them? No that was Lot, a just and righteous man.
So what was it that pissed God off so much that he just had to kill him?
You'd think if it was important enough to kill him, it would be important enough to tell us why.
God's next killing: Onan for spilling his seed
Posted by Steve Wells at 2/27/2009 01:32:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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Steve said...
Steve,
Weird as it seems, this whole incident is in fact a display of God's grace. Through disobedience by Judah's family, people died. Keep in mind that this was the beginning of the nation Israel, so God did horrid things to make it clear that He was not joking when He have His do's and don'ts to His people. Same thing happens in the NT with Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5. This was the beginning of the Jerusalem church, and their deaths were warnings that fellowship means individual sacrifice; there is no place for ego or self in either early Israel or the early church.
Fri Feb 27, 04:57:00 PM 2009
Steve Wells said...
Thanks for clearing that up for us, Steve. You got all that from one verse? (And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him.) Very impressive!
But I agree with with you on one thing. "God did horrid things."
That's quite a god you've got there, Steve.
BTW, what do you think Er did?
Fri Feb 27, 06:09:00 PM 2009
Raytheist said...
It is impossible to hide behind the doctrine of Grace to justify the killing of Er, without documenting what he himself personally did. There is nothing gracious about declaring "Er is wicked, I'm going to kill him" while allowing the likes of Abraham, Noah, Lot, and so many others to stay alive, especially after their own wickedness has been written. There is no grace, and definitely no apparent justice in any of this.
Fri Feb 27, 07:19:00 PM 2009
Uruk said...
LOL!
Ingenious post! Simply ingenious!
Love the pic you posted, too.
Fri Feb 27, 07:44:00 PM 2009
Brian_E said...
I know...I bet Er had a foreskin! That really seems to piss god off.
Sat Feb 28, 07:03:00 AM 2009
busterggi said...
Obviously Er wickedness was so unspeakable that no one could say what it was, that's why it isn't said.
I need a cup of tea, I'm talking like a believer.
Sat Feb 28, 07:39:00 AM 2009
Markus Arelius said...
Maybe he too spilled ejaculate on the ground, or deposited it outside of a woman's vagina?
Seems plausible given the follow up events.
Sun Mar 01, 01:27:00 PM 2009
uzza said...
You're misreading it. It never says he was 'wicked'; for that you have to do something. It says he was "wicked IN THE SIGHT OF THE LORD"; for that it's enough if the lord just thinks you've done something. Kind of like being a suspected terrorist.
Mon Mar 02, 05:35:00 PM 2009
Jon said...
Well according to Shlomo Yitzhaki [better known by the acronym Rashi (Rabbi Shlomo Yitzhaki), (February 22, 1040 – July 13, 1105), was a medieval French rabbi famed as the author of the first comprehensive commentary on the Talmud, as well as a comprehensive commentary on the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible). He is considered the "father" of all commentaries that followed on the Talmud] he did in fact commit a wicked act - he would pull out before he finished and he would finish on the ground. He did this to keep his wife (Tamar) from becoming pregnant, for he wanted her to remain beautiful and appealing to him for longer.
Remember not to look to deeply into the literal translation of the words.
Tue Dec 22, 12:59:00 AM 2009
Peter said...
Couple of thoughts:
Maybe he ate shellfish or forgot to shave or broke that rule about keeping milk and dairy products together or whatever the hell it is.
Or maybe this story is the origin of the saying:
"To er [OK, THE SPELLING CHANGED LATER] is human;
To forgive is divine."
Oh, wait, Er erred and god saw him erring, or god saw him as wicked, slight distinction there, yet he was NOT divinely forgiven.
"You look wicked to me, my lad, I'm going to kill you.", sayeth the lord.
Well what chance does that give the poor bugger then? He didn't even say "Jehovah" ferchrissake (oops, now I'm doomed).
Mon Jan 11, 01:56:00 PM 2010
joshua said...
From a literary standpoint, this passage functions as excellent foreshadowing: now we, the readers, understand the decisiveness and thoroughness of the punishments the main character will dole out. Further, we are placed outside his mind and decision making process, and are only left with the knowledge that this god demands full obedience.
Or as the other Steve said: sometime you have to make an example out of the bad boy in your class if you want the rest to pay attention.
Fri Feb 12, 05:55:00 PM 2010
Steve Wells said...
I agree, Joshua. "This passage functions as an excellent foreshadowing: Now we, the readers, understand" the absurd, cruel, and vicious nature of God's arbitrary killings.
Or as the other Steve might have said: sometimes you have to kill millions of people in horrible ways for no good reason to get the rest to pay attention.
Fri Feb 12, 06:30:00 PM 2010
jonathan said...
At least, at this stage in the story, God only punishes the wrongdoer. Later we learn that He is a ‘vengeful’ God, visiting his anger upon the third and fourth generations of those who do wrong ‘in His sight’. This is somewhat at odds with the Christian model of an infinitely forgiving God. For (us) Jews, we are NOT promised forgiveness, even should we repent of our sins. Now, you might consider this a tad churlish of our Creator. However, I feel very strongly, that the notion of a vengeful God is more acceptable than one who says, “OK, so you murdered, maimed, raped, stole, and wore clothes made of mixed fires...... but, hey, you’re only human. So I forgive you. Just try a little harder not to do this again”
Fri Mar 19, 10:56:00 AM 2010
IAMELIPHAS said...
So in otherwords, steve:
"Er crimethink doubleplusungood in eyes of Big Brother. Big Brother crimestop doubleplusgood make Er unperson. All jacob's issues must make goodthink and have goodsex. BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING YOU!!"
... and that somehow makes more sense than either this verse or steve's explanation.
Steve's explanation makes god sound even MORE Orwellian than the passage itself does, sadly, as these are the exact same methods that Big Brother would use in 1984 to subdue the populace. He does cruel things to people under the guise that he loves them and under the false veil of grace, all for the purpose of keeping his people under control.
In fact, the only real difference between the two is that Big Brother is (correctly) seen as a villain. Yet "god" is seen as a hero (at least by steve), even though they do the exact same things for the exact same reason.
Fri Mar 26, 10:54:00 AM 2010
fm said...
Well, I guess it must have been generic wickedness. Or maybe something serious like getting a tattoo. You never know with this god. But in my book, someone getting a tattoo is a perfectly good reason to slay them. God seems to agree.
Fri Nov 29, 10:44:00 AM 2013
Jojo Bob said...
None are right in His sight, that is the fact that none can wrape their mind around. It is God who is right and we, His creation question His motives. What gives us the right to question. He is the creator, we just the insignificant creation expresly created in His image to shine forth the glory of His person on this earth that He created exclusivly for us. And what do we do, we become wise in our oun concite, we lie murder destroy. And we have the audacity to question God. You are all just God haters as was all those that God had to distroy because of the intense hatred that is as a virus that spreades and mutiplies if not kept in check. And it, hatred will not be irraticated completly until God kills off all viral seeds of doubt that only the believing is left.
I would rather live my life believing in God and at the end there be none, than live my not believing and be judged by Him.
Tue Mar 18, 06:53:00 AM 2014
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24 February 2009The Bible and the Quran agree: Lot was a just and righteous man
Before going on the God's fourth killing, I thought I'd mention something about Lot, since he played such a large role in God's second and third killings.
I don't know how anyone could read the story about Lot in Genesis 19 and still believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God.
Lot offers his daughters to a crowd of angel rapers and then gets drunk and impregnates them. That's all the Bible says about him.
And yet Lot is one of God's special heroes in both the Bible and the Quran. It is one of the things they agree on.
Here's what the Bible says:
God ... delivered just Lot ... that righteous man. 2 Peter 2:4-8
And here's the Quran:
And unto Lot we gave judgment and knowledge... And We brought him in unto Our mercy. Lo! he was of the righteous. Quran 21:74-75
Lot ... did We prefer above (Our) creatures ... We chose them and guided them unto a straight path. Quran 6:86-87
God preferred the just and righteous Lot above all his creatures. You can't get sicker than that.
Posted by Steve Wells at 2/24/2009 12:43:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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Markus Arelius said...
What's really annoying is that Christians I speak with in the U.S. say they read the Bible regularly and go one to say that they understand and can interpret it better than anyone else and apply it to their daily lives. How in the hell do you apply Gen 19 to your daily life and find inspiriation or draw lessons from it? Christians pick and choose verses, leaving out the nasty bits and highlighting the surreal ones. Of the verses then chosen, they arbitrarily decide how literally or nonliterally they should be and understood.
The God described in Genesis 19 is exactly the kind of God I'd expect to be depited by primative, nomadic, Iron-Age cretins residing in limited, city-state civilizations with little knowledge of medicine, science, proper hygiene or nutrition, transportation, or communication, but possessing bucket loads about expertise regarding mysticism, hedonism, polytheistic fear and warfare.
Furthermore, I don't understand how belief in reuniting with such a God after death would console any living soul on this planet. I think you've more than adequately proven on this blog that "hey, that God guy is a freaking jerk!?
Wed Feb 25, 01:59:00 PM 2009
busterggi said...
Markus, most of humanity is still a bunch of Iron-age cretins at heart.
Please note also that Lot & his slutty daughters supposedly passed through another city after fleeing Sodom so they knew they weren't the only humans alive.
Just another badly rewritten end-of-the-world story.
Wed Feb 25, 02:37:00 PM 2009
kopolee11 said...
While I don't claim to be an expert, I am pretty sure that the Qu'ran denies the story of Lot sleeping with his children. At least that is what Wikipedia claims.
That is not to say that the story of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah or of Lot's wife is any less disturbing. It is just to show that in a debate with Muslims, they will not recognize the story as presented in Genesis 19.
Wed Feb 25, 02:50:00 PM 2009
uzza said...
The BMJ published an article detailing how the Bible's account of Lot and his daughters exactly repeat the stereotypical excuses offered by convicted child molesters. The Bible's version is exactly as believable as theirs.
Wed Feb 25, 04:16:00 PM 2009
busterggi said...
Uzza, come to think of it, children got married by parental arrangement as young as 12.
As Lot's daughters were unmarried and living at home they must have been younger,
Cripes! lot was a righteous child molester.
Wed Feb 25, 05:06:00 PM 2009
Steve Wells said...
kopolee,
Yeah, the Quran doesn't mention the story about Lot's drunken sex with his virgin daughters. But it does repeat the one where Lot offers his daughters to the mob of angel rapers. ("Here are my daughters! They are purer for you." Quran 11:78)
I don't know whether Mo hadn't heard the story before or whether he left it out because it was too damned disgusting even for him. In any case it isn't in the Quran (at least to my knowledge).
Wed Feb 25, 05:06:00 PM 2009
kopolee11 said...
Steve,
Yes you are of course right, both the Bible and the Qu'ran state that Lot offered his daughters to the citizens of Sodom. So in both versions Lot isn't exactly a fantastic father figure or a "righteous" man.
And while I have no idea as to why Muhammad left out the story, one reason may be due to the fact that he wanted Muslims to be extremely obedient to the will of the prophets. (And thus his own prophecy) In his mind, they would be less apt to follow a prophet who was not "sinless". Thus he would discount any stories of the prophets doing any vile acts. (Interestingly pimping out your daughters is not considered vile) This might also be the reason that the Qu'ran does not include the story of David and Bathsheba or Solomon and his idolatry. In that sense, the Biblical characters are much more flawed, and yet arguably much more interesting. Anyway, that is just my $0.02
Wed Feb 25, 05:35:00 PM 2009
Krafty Keri said...
When I was a christian I remember hearing a sermon once about that verse where Lot is called a righteous man. We were taught it showed the forgiveness of god, and that no matter what your sins, gods would forgive them, blah blah blah... There are truly hard-core christians out there that know the bible from cover to cover, and know how to twist each and every verse and interpret it to the glory of god. You have to do a lot of mental gymnastics, but, believe me, it can be done. I know, I did it. Now I realize how stupid it all was.
Wed Feb 25, 05:48:00 PM 2009
matt311 said...
See, now, this is one of the reasons I'm leaving my church after Lent.
Ever since I was a little boy, I've always been perplexed as to why God saves Lot; he clearly doesn't deserve to be rescued, as he's just as bad as his neighbors. Now I know: God made man in his own image, and therefore, by God's derangedly twisted view, the daughter-pimping, wastrel nephew Lot is "just and righteous".
You can't get more fucked-up than that.
Fri Feb 27, 07:43:00 PM 2009
mirza-08 said...
kapole11 muhamed did not write the quran and has never claimed to be the author, the fact is that he was an unletted man he couldnt read nor write. and for the quran in its original form it was not a book it was spoken. so whenever muhammed got a revelation from god he spoke out immdiately in the public so there was absolutely no editorial process, similar to an sms as soon as you press send thats it you cannot change the text after you have sent it. so this claim tht muhammed "chose" to leave out something has no basis.
Wed Nov 04, 06:50:00 AM 2009
Serializer said...
matt311, you're giving up church for Lent?
That tickled me.
Thu Feb 25, 03:58:00 AM 2010
Call me Karma said...
In the Bible, Lot is a disturbingly disgusting man. In the Quran, they picture him to be a righteous man. He DID offer his daughters --which IS disgusting-- but God has also asked Abraham to kill him son... in both cases the children were spared.
I would also like to state that even though this story is used to depict the abomination that is homosexuality, it mostly depicts the abomination of rape! It states quite clearly that they humiliated strangers by using mistreatment and rape! Rape is not equal homosexuality. It is proven that one has nothing to do with the other!!!
Thu Aug 12, 07:40:00 AM 2010
Call me Karma said...
In the Bible, Lot is a disturbingly disgusting man. In the Quran, they picture him to be a righteous man. He DID offer his daughters --which IS disgusting-- but God has also asked Abraham to kill him son... in both cases the children were spared.
I would also like to state that even though this story is used to depict the abomination that is homosexuality, it mostly depicts the abomination of rape! It states quite clearly that they humiliated strangers by using mistreatment and rape! Rape is not equal homosexuality. It is proven that one has nothing to do with the other!!!
Thu Aug 12, 07:40:00 AM 2010
stephanie said...
Lot was not some sicko who got drunk and made his daughters pregnant. His daughters got him drunk so that they could lay with him and continue their family line. Try reading Genesis 19:30-36
Thu Feb 24, 07:36:00 PM 2011
Steve Wells said...
stephanie,
You say that "Lot was not some sicko who got drunk and made his daughters pregnant. His daughters got him drunk so that they could lay with him and continue their family line. Try reading Genesis 19:30-36."
But Lot was a sicko who got drunk and made his daughters pregnant. Try reading Genesis 19:30-36
Only a sicko father would get drunk and have sex with his virgin daughters. Daughters don't force fathers to get drunk and have sex.
Imagine a father who claimed that his daughters forced him to get drunk and have sex with them. Does that sound like a good excuse to you, stephanie?
Tue Mar 08, 11:04:00 AM 2011
Belief said...
FYI: to those claiming Lot lived in the Iron Age. It was not the Iron Age. It was at least early enough to still be in the Bronze Age (pre-iron).
The time of Lot (& Abraham) was long before the time of the supposed Exodus. And even the Exodus is claimed to have taken place in the late Bronze Age.
Mon Mar 14, 10:10:00 AM 2011
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17 February 2009Remember Lot's Wife (Forget Jesus)
Although this is God's fourth killing event, it is the first of God's 2,552,452 countable victims.
It's interesting that God's first countable victim is unnamed. God killed Mrs. Lot without even knowing (or at least telling us) her name.
And what was it that got God's attention? What did she do that caused him to kill her?
She looked back at the place she had lived all her life. She looked back as her family, friends, and neighbors were being smashed and burned to death by God. She looked back.
But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt. Genesis 19.26
And, of course, the angel told her not to.
The angels hastened Lot, saying ... take thy wife, and thy two daughters ... Look not behind thee ... lest thou be consumed. Genesis 19:15-17
Or did he?
Who was the angel talking to here? To Lot alone or to him and his family? And if it was to Lot alone, did Lot tell his wife? Would it matter to God if no one bothered to tell her? Would he kill her anyway?
Who knows? Or cares? A God who would kill a woman for looking back as everyone she has ever known [except for her “just and righteous husband” (2 Peter 2.7-8) and her father-fucking virgin daughters (Genesis 19.30-38)] is being burned to death, is a monster God. An arbitrary, random killer.
I have met Christians who ignore this story, as they ignore pretty much everything else in the Old Testament. They sometimes call themselves "Red Letter Christians," meaning that they base their beliefs on the words of Jesus.
But Jesus believed in the story about Sodom and Gomorrah; he believed in the story about Lot's wife. He saw nothing wrong with any of it. In fact, he said that when he returns at the end of the world it will be just like that. You can check for yourself in your Red Letter Bible.
As it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. … Remember Lot's wife. Luke 17.26-32
Jesus had no problem with God's first two mass murders (the flood of Noah and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah ), or with God's killing of Lot's wife. It'll be just like that at the end of the world, if Jesus has anything to say about it. He is just as nasty as the Old Testament God. Maybe nastier.
So remember Lot's wife. And forget Jesus.
God's next killing: The Shechem and Dinah love story/massacre
Posted by Steve Wells at 2/17/2009 05:12:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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22 comments:
FrodoSaves said...
I think the real question here is how dehydrated must Lot's wife have been with all that sodium chloride in her? Early evidence against eating too much red meat? Eh? Eh?
Good post. I just watched Religulous, so the Lot/angels/raped daughters thing fits in nicely with it.
Thanks!
Wed Feb 18, 02:01:00 AM 2009
matt311 said...
Now that you've framed it in that manner, I suppose God did Lot's wife a favour, considering she was married to a man who would offer up her daughters to an angry mob and had spawned two daughters who engaged in incest. Geez...
I suppose it's sort of like me looking back as my hometown is suddenly burnt to a crisp by the wrath of a vengeful god. She was killed because she was only being human.
Wed Feb 18, 01:42:00 PM 2009
I Am said...
Excellent post. I've heard a number of times the line that Jesus and/or New Testament is better, that they're what really count, not the Old Testament. I'll have to remember this passage the next time Old vs. New Testament comes up.
These verses from Luke show that Jesus is not only acknowledging two unjust massacres and one unjust murder by his Father in the Old Testament, Jesus is saying it will be just like that when he returns, too.
Like Father, like Son, I guess.
Wed Feb 18, 04:24:00 PM 2009
FrodoSaves said...
If by "being human" you mean "disobeying god by being a feckless sinner", then yes, she was killed because she was just being human.
Isn't the Old Testament fun?
Wed Feb 18, 09:08:00 PM 2009
Jonathan Bennett said...
Wow.. that God would have been a really nasty bastard if he actually existed.
But he doesn't.
And all this story about Lot might have just as well been written by the Brothers Grimm.
Perhaps I should found a Religion based on Snow White? Who knows, with enough money and 2,000 years of indoctrination, the sky's the limit!
Wed Feb 18, 09:17:00 PM 2009
catermark said...
Romans 9:20 (King James Version)
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
---------------
In other words, if you are the creation and God is the creator, who are you to judge how the creator of the creation decides to make the clay?
Weather it is unto obedience or unbelief unto destruction?
Who are you to judge how God destroys or saves that which he created?
Finally,if thou art so headstong against the words of the bible, you attest to it`s correctness otherwise you would not say anything, because to believe it.
Thu Feb 19, 09:36:00 AM 2009
legardien23 said...
Catermark,
Your point would be valid, were it not for the TREMENDOUS logical leap you make at the very beginning.
If.
You know how stupid you think those ancient Greeks and Romans were for actually believing in those mythological gods? You ever actually laugh at the nonsensical story of Zeus appearing as a cow?
Yeah, that's us. Laughing at you.
Thu Feb 19, 12:23:00 PM 2009
Markus Arelius said...
And Lot said to his wife: "Whatever you do, my love, don't turn the other cheek...oh damn!"
Fri Feb 20, 08:49:00 PM 2009
Toby said...
I love the blog. I try to get over hear for a Bible study at least one a week. Best Bible study I've ever attended and sadly in my 32 years, there have been a lot of them.
Sat Feb 21, 06:20:00 AM 2009
LoveGod said...
I’m not sure you will want to post this as it is rather long. But I have read some of your blog entries of the years, and they are just so far off from any kind of real analysis, I felt I’ll respond to the latest one. It is unfortunate that you are so judgmental of Christians and the Bible. Most Christians do not ignore the OT. Not sure where you get this stuff? Christ is both the source and fulfillment of the OT promises, the law and God's never-ending mercy. On subject of Lot and his wife: It seems YOU are the one ignoring most of the OT. It’s clear you have no understanding of what came before this event (or after really). Now to the specifics:
1. Lot's wife did NOT in fact live in Sodom all her life. Originally they all lived with Abraham together in one territory (Lot is Abraham's nephew). When both families got so big and disputes broke out, Abraham generously offered Lot first choice of ANY of the land he wanted (although Abraham had the right/authority to choose first).
2. So what does Lot choose? To live with the most wicked people around! The moment Lot has the freedom to choose, he shows his propensity to choose evil. And you see that in his descendents, i.e. with the daughters' sinful behavior, etc.
3. Ok, so Lot gets his pick of the best and it turns out Lot likes evil places. But guess what else? Lot had already been rescued once by Abraham. He rescued Lot and his family and many inhabitants of Sodom, when their city was attacked & plundered by their enemies. See Gen 14. See God was very good to Abraham and Abraham was very good to others, even those who weren’t that great to begin with. One could argue that Lot could have repented at that point and NOT gone back to Sodom. In a sense, he had already been saved from Sodom and he went right back!
4. But Lot never repents & never changes and neither does anyone in Sodom! They continue to be wicked. By the time God intervenes, you can see Sodom's state of wickedness and the influence it had on Lot by the way the city's inhabitants want to rape the messengers and he offers up his only daughters in Gen 19! Lot is no better at this point than the inhabitants. This is just the way things are done in good ol Sodom! This was a nasty, nasty place.
5. So, God felt it better that a people so evil be destroyed. Would it be a merciful God who does nothing and allows these evil people to continue their evil against each other and others? I find it ironic that you choose this episode, the destruction of Sodom and Lot's wife as a model of God as a "monster God, an arbitrary, random killer"! This is probably one of the best examples in the bible of God specifically, righteously destroying wickedness! God is not being arbitrary or random at all in this instance.
6. Not only that, but God is SO merciful, he ALREADY said he would NOT destroy the town if only 10 good people could be found! See Gen 18:32. Only 10! And guess what? Even Lot's family wasn’t good, nor did they make up 10! God saved Lot and his wife and daughters out of kindness to Abraham! See Gen 19:29: “But God had listed to Abraham’s request and kept Lot safe, removing him from the disaster that engulfed the cities on the plain.”
7. But that brings us to the destruction and Lot’s wife. What is the scripture saying here? That she missed her home? No! Lot's wife turned back! She wants to go back to an evil, disgusting place that is about to be destroyed rather than be rescued by God!! Huh?? Even if she wasn’t a good person, wouldn’t that just seem ah, stupid?
8. But it wasn’t just stupidity, nor as you try to infer, was it ignorance. Oh, did she know? Did the angel tell her? Please READ the scripture YOU quoted: Gen 19:16 makes it VERY clear the angels were speaking to them all: “While Lot hesitated, the angels seized his hand and the hands of HIS WIFE and two daughters...Run for YOUR lives, don't look back or stop!"
9. One other smaller point, when you say God did not even know Mrs. Lot’s name - that is not true. Just because it is not recorded by this writer in the bible, that does not mean GOD did not know her name. Other scriptures make it clear that God knows each of us before we were born (Jer. 1:5 and Psalm 139) and that he calls each of us by name. See:
a. Isaiah 43:1-3: “But now, thus says the LORD, who created you, O Jacob, And He who formed you, O Israel: ‘Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by your name; You are Mine’.”
b. Christ emphasizes this as well: "The sheep listen to the voice of the shepherd. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out." John10:3. Who is the Shepherd? Christ! See John 10:11. Who are the sheep? Even the OT notes we are the sheep. Psalm 100: 3: “Know that the LORD, He is God; It is He who has made us, and not we ourselves; We are His people and the sheep of His pasture.”
10. Look at it this way, Lot’s wife was not innocent and neither are we. Lot’s wife was disobedient and her heart was bent on evil, not God. What happened to Lot’s wife is not just a literal recording of an event, like a news article, but a metaphor for us all! So, yeah Jesus gets it right!! Don't turn back to that nasty evil place. "let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife." Luke 17:27-32. Luke, a new Christian, who did not ignore the Old Testament gives us this as a warning. You are in error and have really missed the point of the story. The point is God saves. God rescues. Choose to be rescued, dummy!
If you want to argue with God, you gotta do better than this. But, I will agree with you on one point: Remember Lot's wife.
Sat Feb 21, 07:52:00 PM 2009
uzza said...
Everyone please stop blaming the victims. The Bible's whitewashing of Lot's incestuous rape of his two daughters is exactly what any D.A. hears whenever some creep is pulled in for raping a little girl. He is absolutely blameless, she is an evil slut, it's entirely her fault, etc. Anyone who cannot see through such a stereotypical, transparent excuse has no clue of what goes on in the real world.
Sat Feb 21, 11:30:00 PM 2009
FrodoSaves said...
LoveGod,
What happened to Lot’s wife is not just a literal recording of an event, like a news article, but a metaphor for us all!
Know many people who have literally turned into a pillar of salt, do you? Or was that a column? I'm awfully sorry, I know it makes a huge difference.
In isolation, your explanations might make a trifling bit of sense. But as we're always reminded, we're supposed to take the Bible in its greater context, aren't we? Perhaps you'd like to shed some light on the reason why god chose to create us all in the first place, then create sin, which - if you believe the predestinationalists - man had little hand in choosing to engage in, time and time again, and yet somehow manages to remain responsible. Maybe you'd like to explain why, returning to Lot's wife, she had to bear ultimate responsibility for something which was - in its greater context - entirely of god's creation. I could go on, but I expect by now you're quite aware that anything you could respond with will be thoroughly unconvincing.
Please, take your time.
FS
Sun Feb 22, 03:48:00 AM 2009
Dave said...
One small question, LoveGod…
The verse says “But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.”. How do you go from “looked back” to your version “turned back” and somehow deduce that she wants to return to Sodom? That’s a stretch of convenience not supported by scripture. The word used for look, according to my concordance, is “nabat” which means “a primitive root; to scan, i.e. look intently at; by implication, to regard with pleasure, favor or care:--(cause to) behold, consider, look (down), regard, have respect, see.” I see nothing here that says she “turned back”, let alone expressing any desire to return. Did you modify in your mind the meaning of words here as a form of cognitive dissonance?
Mon Feb 23, 03:57:00 PM 2009
Jessica said...
That's a good point, Dave, I went shuffling through concordances and found the same meanings of "look, see, show regard to." To me, though, that bolsters rather than undermines LordGod's point - Lot's wife looked back towards Sodom with regard and pleasure despite the terrible things practiced there. I don't find it difficult to move from 'looking upon the city with pleasure' to 'wanting to return given the chance,' but even without that jump we still have her liking the city despite its evil. Does that seem less cognitively dissonant, or have I missed something?
This is an excellent conversation, thank you.
Tue Feb 24, 07:43:00 AM 2009
Markus Arelius said...
What amazes me is how de-sensitized we all are about these extraordinary events on the Old Testament. Just think about what it must have been like. These people in Sodom in Gommorrah were brutally and painful destroyed as a result of God's wrath? There must have most certainly been innocent people living in these cities, young children, babies, mothers, etc. It's awful to think a love and just God could cause such wanton destruction.
It's not unlike the response to the tsunami in the south Pacific years ago. Innocent people suffered horrible, painful and brutal deaths under the waves, bone-crushing debris and collapsing buildings. Then Austrian Bishop Ludwig Schwarz calls this cataclismic natural event "God's punishment for human sinfulness and homosexuality"! Hundreds of young children and mothers died in this disaster.
I was a Christian at one point, but this kind of God speak disgusts me and I don't wish to be remotely associated with people who believe such extraordinary stupid claims.
Wed Feb 25, 11:49:00 AM 2009
Andy said...
This kind of fatuous, gullible, irrational apologisticism(itudinositiness?) always cracks me up:
LuvGod said: "5. So, God felt it better that a people so evil be destroyed. Would it be a merciful God who does nothing and allows these evil people to continue their evil against each other and others?"
Um... yes? Duh? (Overlooking for the moment the inane implication that an omnipotent Gawd can somehow only manage to think of those two options.) Slaughtering everyone indiscriminately is not 'merciful'. I suppose you could try to argue that it's 'just', for some sick, twisted meaning of the word 'justice', possibly, maybe, but not 'merciful'. Unless you have no clue at all what the word 'merciful' means. Look it up.
Were all the babies in Sodom and Gommorrah wicked too? The kitties and puppies?
Wed Feb 25, 06:56:00 PM 2009
Timothy said...
"but even without that jump we still have her liking the city despite its evil." - Jessica
I live in a place I absolutely hate, it's way too hot for my comfort, I hate the city to begin with, and given the first chance, I'm moving away(I'm in college, and so funds are a bit lacking, and I'd prefer to not make any huge life-changing decisions right now...). Does that mean I can't look back and find a bit of remorse in the fact that I'm leaving a place I've spent years of my life in? Not at all. And I probably will, but ultimately will end up leaving it behind and heading to better places, and might never come back. Considering the fact that she now will never have the chance to come back, whether or not she wants to, on top of the fact that they had lived with these people for awhile, probably not just keeping to themselves, and so they knew these people and probably had a few memories from them and now knowing they are being brutally slaughtered( that's a fairly accurate depiction of raining fire on someone...). Her only crime was not blindly following what two angels told them Yahweh told them to do. As usual, Yahweh punishes thought.
Thu Apr 30, 06:14:00 PM 2009
Curtis said...
The arguments in this post are interesting.
For arguments sake if we accept the fact that God was able to make fire rain from the sky, flood the Earth or turn a woman into a pillar of salt then we have to accept the creation stories (for the argument).
If God created Sodom and Lot and his wife why can he not destroy them if he is displeased?
The tenor of the blog and the replies have read seem to imply that God is unjust. If he created them then its not unjust for him to destroy them.
If we are trying to use the text of the narrative to prove that God is just or unjust you cannot introduce concepts from outside the narrative.
Wed May 13, 05:40:00 PM 2009
Steve Wells said...
Curtis,
"If God created Sodom and Lot and his wife why can he not destroy them if he is displeased?"
I suppose he can if he wants to. But just because he can do it, doesn't make it right.
Why did he choose to kill Lot's wife for looking back, but not Lot for offering his daughters to a sex-crazed mob of angel rapers and then getting drunk and impregnating them? Why does he consider Lot a just and righteous man?
Do you think Lot was a just and righteous man, Curtis?
Would it be OK for God to burn someone alive and then burn them forever in hell for no reason at all? Would it be OK for him to do that just for the fun of it?
Do you have any moral sense at all, Curtis?
Wed May 13, 06:09:00 PM 2009
Xolotl-Tzin said...
Why did he choose to kill Lot's wife for looking back, but not Lot for offering his daughters to a sex-crazed mob of angel rapers and then getting drunk and impregnating them? Easy. I will answer this question, not with Christian theology nor with anything about "God".
The answer to way Lot offered his daughters up rather than his guest angels has been hotly debated. But to anyone familiar with Mesopotamian customs at the time its quite obvious... In ancient Mesopotamia Hospitality laws, the guest was of utmost importance. It would be rude for Lot to let the guests be treated that way. (See here. Pg. 19-20for a detailed explanation.) Gods even followed these rules. There was several times where Inanna broke them, however.
Wed May 27, 09:25:00 AM 2009
BC Falls said...
I think the main point here is Satan wanted both Lot and his wife for their inequities but God would not let Satan kill Lot. God is merciful and allowed Lot to live.
Wed Mar 10, 11:04:00 AM 2010
XO said...
God is not ignorant of outcomes.
1. Most often kids become what their parents are (out of choice). I've witnessed this numerous times. Though the parents were the 1st to take steps towards evil, would the kids have made a different choice had they preceded their parents? Most humans choose a destructive evil path. We see this in the events leading up to the flood (and throughout the Bible). Christ also points this out in Matthew 7:13. God chooses when, where and what patrents bring us into this world.
Growing up in a poverty stricken Harlem in the 70's-80's, it was clear that many wanted to continue on in the lifestyle of their parents. However, there were a few who ended up as collateral damage. Jump from a tall enough cliff, you'll die. Jump from a cliff with a baby in your arms, you'll both die. Through God's grace, I choose otherwise. And sadly, I'm one of the few who are still amongst the living from that generation.
It's not about how much or how little we sin, it's the fact of sin. And we all are what we will eternally become (and God knows this). We limit ourselves to chronological time. God does not operate according to a clock.
2. During my formative years I prayed to God for death, to escape the horrible abuse I was subjected to each day. I've learned later on that God (in His mercy) does this on occasion cf. Isaiah 57:1-2. God took King David's son (early), only to reunite them both later (after the 1st death).
So (it can be argued from Scripture) that some of the young (who would have grown up to be righteous) were simply spared the torment of evil: 2 Peter 2 7,8
Some of the young (who would grow up to be evil) were allowed to exist: Romans 9 22-24
Some of these ancient cultures (according to Biblical and secular accounts), that weren't dealt with early on, took things further in subsequent generations e.g., sacrificed children, committed acts of cannibalism.
Do we blame the US for going into Afghanistan? Was there collateral damage (young children, pregnant women being killed)? Is the US capable of preventing the youth from filling the shoes of their parents? Or have they opened up a can of worms and gotten into a mess Israel has been dealing.
3. Is death the end? Is it really all that bad relative to eternity? Scripture mentions not to fear the one who can destroy the body, but fear Him that can destroy both body and soul. Death of the flesh is not an end-all. Eternal judgment that can result in a 2nd death is what ultimately matters.
4. On Lot and his daughters:
Scriptures clearly indicate that Lot was drugged. He had no recollection of what his daughters did.
What is grace? God grace doesn't cover everyone. It does cover ignorance. On occasaion, it even covers willful acts of sin. It will not cover the reprobate. Was Lot a riteous man? Parallel Peter and Judas. They both betrayed, they both felt guilty, they were both influenced by the devil. Christ prayed for one, and told the other to do what he had to do. What was the subtle difference between the two?
Also, Lot's daughters did not have sex with their father out of lustful intentions either, their motivation was to have children. Big difference.
If you are going to critique the Bible, do consider its rules as well.
Wed Aug 31, 07:37:00 AM 2011
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07 February 2009A Damnable Doctrine
Hell is the core of Christianity; it is what Jesus came to save us from. We all deserve to go there, and there is only one way to escape: believe the right things. (Just what those things are depends on who you talk to.) And if for whatever (and however good a) reason you should die without that belief, you will be tormented forever in Hell by the God who loves you. It is as simple, cruel and absurd as that.
Here is what Charles Darwin said about it in his autobiography:
I can hardly see how anyone ought to wish Christianity to be true; for if so, the plain language of the text seems to show that the men who do not believe, and this would include my Father, Brother, and almost all my best friends, will be everlastingly punished. And this is a damnable doctrine.
It was Hell that did me in as a Christian. I, like Darwin, couldn't believe that my family and friends and billions of other nonbelievers (and religiously incorrect believers) would be tormented forever in Hell for their honest disbelief. It amazes me that anyone could.
Hell is indeed a damnable doctrine. Darwin, as usual, had it exactly right.
Posted by Steve Wells at 2/07/2009 10:45:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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18 comments:
Colin said...
I agree 100%. This is relevant to my current situation. I confess I'm still quite afraid of hell but then I think to myself, even if I were to convert most my family and friends would be going there. I suppose a Christian would say it's my responsibility to evangelize to them but I have a hard time defending a religion like Christianity to myself, let alone other people. I mean..Noah's Ark? C'MON! Let alone the cruelty of hell which I doubt any apologetic could convince me is just.
How can I evangelize if I'm not convinced it's fair myself?
One might also say I'm supposed to love God more than my family and friends since he created me, but then again, he created hell. I think that makes being created a curse instead of a gift.
If I was saved, Heaven would be a lonely place for me as no one I know would be there. I actually asked a christian about how you're supposed to be happy in heaven if people you love are in hell. She said "God will erase your memories of them" either that or your just too damn happy to care. No thanks. That's just depressing.
Whoever created eternal hell was just plain sick, be it God or Man.
Sat Feb 07, 10:06:00 AM 2009
matt311 said...
I think, when Man created Hell, he had no way of reckoning how damnable a doctrine it would be; he just said, "Hey! If you don't believe in what I say, or you're my enemy, you suffer eternal agony after you die! Boo-gah boo-gah!"
It's a damned shame that people insist on living good lives because they don't want to be broiled in the afterlife, not just simply because it's the right thing to do.
Sat Feb 07, 12:40:00 PM 2009
FrodoSaves said...
matt311,
I disagree. I think whoever created it - certainly a man, or men - had a very good idea how politically useful it would be. We have a long history of being easily manipulated by fear. Hitler wielded his people's shame and embarrassment. McCarthy played on the common man's terror of the Red Menace. And history may prove me wrong, but it seems that Cheney is still harping on about nebulous threats from all comers in a bid for political relevance. Hell is no different, and since it was so obviously created by man - primitive minds are easily impressed by the superlative - I think it's extremely easy to smell the rat.
Or should that be 'Rat'?
Sat Feb 07, 06:28:00 PM 2009
Uruk said...
The doctrine of hell didn't do me in, but it looks worse and worse to me since I left Christianity.
If hell is to be eternal, can you imagine how disproportionate the punishment is?! Take a human life and put it next to 5 billion years. That's probably like comparing the length of your kitchen table against the distance of the United States from coast to coast! And so what if my comparison isn't very accurate, you get the picture. Because we're talking about eternity!
Who deserves that?
And worse, if God should be omnipotent and omniscient, that means that God has created people that he knows will go to hell. He has the power to either not create hell bound people, or forgive them. Yet, this doctrine says that God lets them parish.
Why not simply will sinners out of existence or not let them even be born in he first place?
Why have hell, with so many other options?
There are Christians who do not believe in hell. But I wonder if such people are truly Christian. I don't knock them for their belief. In fact, I admire it. But I'm sure other Christians would lump such believers into the same basket as us non-Christians.
Sat Feb 07, 07:22:00 PM 2009
strungout7777 said...
I've asked two of my devout Catholic friends who attend church regularly and teach bible camps to explain how a loving god could send people to hell for eternity. The best they could muster were vague, convoluted answers.
I've also asked these friends if they can locate heaven or hell, or where they could exist. I suggested to them that they probably lie outside the universe (I can't picture another planet having the characteristics of the heaven described by some Christians. Hell, I suppose that could be located on Venus, Mercury or other rocky planets whose orbits are tight to stars).
For arguments sake, I assume heaven isn't a state of mind or altered consciousness, since brain functions probably stop at death. Let's say a man dies and his soul leaves his body for heaven, like a beam of light. It would take billions of years for it to leave the universe, assuming it's traveling at the speed of light. Maybe souls could never leave the universe because it's constantly expanding.
My friends say I think too literally about the situation. But according to the bible, their savior, Jesus, flew BODILY to heaven. Can you image how far he's traveled since leaving earth? I feel for Jesus, because no one told him how far he'd have to travel to get home. Plus, he probably wasn't briefed about space's temperature (about -450F), black holes, radiation or gamma ray bursts.
Sat Feb 07, 09:03:00 PM 2009
Uruk said...
strungout7777:
Good point. My son started to ruminate over how other kids at school were always "throwing the bird" -- you know, giving someone "the finger".
He said that a classmate told him that you can give the devil the finger and it's OK. Just make sure you point your middle finger down, because pointing it up is pointing it to God.
So, then I asked him where he thought heaven was.
Of course . . . the sky, he says.
Then I pointed out to him that the earth is round, so up for us isn't quite up for someone in . . . say . . . Australia, or the South Pole.
So I asked him again, where is heaven?
He quickly moved heaven to outer space.
What about the moon? Is heaven out there?
Then he (being seven years old) moves heaven to another dimension of the universe.
He's got it all figured out.
The ancients seemed to think that heaven was in the sky. The earth was most likely believed to be flat. The tower of Babel was a real threat that God had to thwart.
Hmmmmm . . . .
Hell . . . that's easy. That's in the core of the earth!
:-D
Sun Feb 08, 12:35:00 AM 2009
Errancy said...
I struggle with the idea of hell too.
I think it's worth saying that even Christians who accept the hellfire and brimstone version of hell don't say that God sends people there for their unbelief. Unbelief prevents people from escaping hell, but it isn't a reason for being sent there; people are sent there for their sins.
I'd still prefer a toned down version of hell though. I'm just not sure how well that sits with the Bible.
Sun Feb 08, 05:04:00 AM 2009
Uruk said...
Errancy, you said:
" . . . even Christians who accept the hellfire and brimstone version of hell don't say that God sends people there for their unbelief."
That is true. I would say things like that too, when I was practicing Christianity.
But, notice how that argument from Christians makes God appear powerless. That goes against the classic view of God-- the omnipotent One that can do anything he wills.
I've heard countless preachers throughout my 25 years of Christian experience say that God can do anything but fail.
I've only heard one fundamentalist type say that God could fail. This preacher took the risk of saying that God fails every time a person dies, yet has not accepted Christ and lived a holy life. God failed by allowing that person to not be reached by his love, and as a result another soul is lost to Satan's hell.
The people in the congregation became really quiet when that preacher spoke. His foreign words were unheard of. He only survived making such comments because he was a high ranking Bishop within the organization. Bishops of his caliber are considered nigh infallible and people often feared such types more than the invisible God.
Personally, I couldn't help noticed the contradiction. I kept quiet like everyone else, but his comments stayed with me.
I think the preacher was hoping to subconsciously pass the blame from God to the members of the church. We failed because we weren't witnessing enough. We weren't God's hands and feet and expression of love enough. We were not Christ like examples enough.
But why does an omnipotent God need help from human hands and feet to represent him when he already has all power to say and do what he wants?
Omnipotence, I think, gives God way more trouble than people consider. And the idea of hell only makes this philosophical problem worse.
Sun Feb 08, 10:52:00 AM 2009
Errancy said...
@Uruk
Complex questions, but here's the germ of an answer:
Theologians distinguish between God's antecedent will and his consequent will. God's antecedent will is (roughly) what God wants before he considers the actual circumstances of the world, his best case scenario. God's consequent will is what he actually wills given the circumstances he finds.
Thanks to free will, the two can come apart. God's antecedent will might be to welcome everyone into heaven, but faced with unrepent sinners his consequent will may be for some people to go to hell.
When people say that God can't fail, they're thinking in terms of his consequent will; whatever God consequently wills comes to pass.
When the preacher you mentioned said that God fails when someone dies in unbelief, he was talking about God's antecedent will; that isn't God's best case scenario.
That said, I do agree that the concept of omnipotence is problematic (not necessarily incoherent, but problematic). People dismiss the paradox of the stone as a philosophical cliche, but I think it has some bite, and there are a couple of other issues too.
Sun Feb 08, 02:58:00 PM 2009
Uruk said...
Errancy:
I follow you. I used to believe that way, too. I called it God's "permissive" will and his "perfect" will.
But somehow, that preacher's comments didn't fit your explanation because our congregation was super conservative and God could not be praised or worshiped enough. "Fail" and "God" should never be in the same sentence. That was taboo within that particular congregation I attended.
But, I see your point.
But, the Bible says that it's not the Lord's will that any should parish, but that all would come to repentance.
Maybe I'm taking that verse out of context, but how is God doing me a favor by giving me free will via his permissive will? Isn't he then allowing me to retain ambiguous feelings about his doctrine or existence? He's giving me permission to take myself to hell.
Or am I being a cop-out and blaming God for my rebellion?
Before anyone says that, I don't wanna go to hell!! I'll bow down to God if I could be clear that he exists and be clear of what he wants. I was raised Baptist. When someone told me that the Apostolic Faith Doctrine was the only true way, I was doubtful, but I investigated. I cared about my salvation and I wanted to be sure. Once I become convinced of their doctrine, I complied and left the Baptist church and sought to fulfill the teachings of the Apostolic Faith doctrine.
Then someone else comes along and says that my adherence to the Apostolic Faith isn't correct for what ever reason. Any body can take the scriptures to support their "inerrant" view of the scriptures.
Then what?
Well, the problem with communicating in text is that you can't see facial expression or hear inflections in people's voices.
Please don't feel like I'm blasting you or anything like that. I'm only sharing my point of view. So, I hope my tone is peaceful.
Errancy, are you still a believer? If so, I won't press the issue any further unless you're mutually interested in this kind of dialogue. I don't want you to feel like I'm talking an argumentative posture or anything. I'm not interested in "deconverting" you if you're still religious. I'm only sharing my feelings. And, I welcome any difference of opinion.
A lot of what I've said in my comments have just come to me recently-- like in the past month. Before then, I never gave omnipotence, evil in the world, and hell very much thought.
But now I find that I have a lot to say on the issue. Had this post come out a few months ago, I doubt I would have had much of an opinion at all.
Oh, and btw, Good post, Steve. For me, it's been mental simulating.
Sun Feb 08, 04:15:00 PM 2009
Errancy said...
> Please don't feel like I'm blasting you or anything like that.
Not at all! Your tone's spot on.
> are you still a believer?
Yes, I'm a Christian (although some fundamentalists would probably want to disown me). As I said before, I'm not particularly keen to defend a fire and brimstone version of hell, but to continue the discussion here goes anyway...
> the Bible says that it's not the Lord's will that any should perish...
This is about God's antecedent will; given that some don't repent, he consequently wills that they perish.
> how is God doing me a favor by giving me free will?
I'm not sure that he is doing you a favour. I think handing out free will is a bigger-picture decision than that.
Free will makes it possible for the universe to have a moral dimension, and that's arguably a good enough reason for God to have given it to us.
How that works out for each of us individually is another matter though; if unbelievers are going to suffer eternal torment for their sins, then they would have been better off without free will.
Just to reiterate: I don't have firm views on this, and I certainly don't think that I have all the answers. I just somehow seem to have ended up trying to articulate this particular position for the sake of our discussion. :)
Mon Feb 09, 07:54:00 AM 2009
Uruk said...
Errancy:
> Yes, I'm a Christian (although some fundamentalists would probably want to disown me). As I said before, I'm not particularly keen to defend a fire and brimstone version of hell, but to continue the discussion here goes anyway...
I've just become really acquaintance with someone like you in blogger world. And sort of like the original post suggests, hell seems to be central to the Christian faith. Ever hear of The Jerome Conspiracy? You may find it an interesting read. I wasn't totally convinced of his main point, but you might think he proves it after reading it. The author suggests that the doctrine of hell was added later. I won't sit here and say you're not a Christian for any unorthodox belief you might express (relative to Christianity). That's cool by me. I was fundamentalist, so I realize that I would not have considered you a true Christian back then. But today, I'd say if people feel the need to be Christians-- the truest of Christians who would actually do good in the world will have a flexible attitude like yours. I find that quality admirable.
The questions I keep bringing up are an expression of my growing skepticism of Christian doctrine. I see what you mean when you say that you aren't necessarily defending the doctrine, but you're just outlining the "logic" of those who believe in such a doctrine as hell.
> Free will makes it possible for the universe to have a moral dimension, and that's arguably a good enough reason for God to have given it to us.
When I was a kid, I wondered what would keep me sinless in heaven. If I had so much trouble living a holy life on earth, what would keep me pure in heaven?
At first, I was comforted by the idea that I'd have a "new" body. I wouldn't have a fleshly body, so the "sin nature" wouldn't influence me.
Then, I started to wonder what caused Lucifer (Satan) to fall from heaven. He was an angel, and took a third of angels with him when he defected from heaven, according to many Christians.
So, why does God seem to withdraw free will from us when the believers finally reach heaven? I say this because we will be sinless and perfect, supposedly. Will we never have a desire for anything sinful again? Does our free will become that resolute towards God?
What causes that? Or will God then take away our free will? Why did he let Lucifer rebel in heaven before "the fall", but promises to keep the saved pure in heaven.
I used to worry that I might mess up in heaven, like Lucifer did, and that perhaps I wasn't salvageable at all.
There didn't seem to be much free will in that. I felt trapped. As I got older, I just trusted God would have all that figured out. But now that I have a skeptic's outlook, the question comes back. The answers that usually comforted me then don't seem to work any more.
Mon Feb 09, 09:06:00 AM 2009
Carambax said...
Steve,
In your post you've stated:
"there is only ONE way to escape: believe the right things."
But how can this be, since your SAB Contradictions-section says that there are SEVERAL ways to be saved according to the Bible?
PS: All in all I think your site is absolutely brilliant - thanks.
Tue Feb 10, 08:27:00 AM 2009
Carambax said...
Steve,
In your post you've stated:
"there is only ONE way to escape: believe the right things."
But how can this be, since your SAB Contradictions-section says that there are SEVERAL ways to be saved according to the Bible?
PS: All in all I think your site is absolutely brilliant - thanks.
Tue Feb 10, 08:40:00 AM 2009
Steve Wells said...
Carambax,
You're right. I counted 29 ways of getting saved in the Bible.
But nearly all Protestants say there is only one way to get saved: believe the right things (salvation is by faith alone). Everyone deserves to go to hell and only faith can save them from going there.
Tue Feb 10, 08:15:00 PM 2009
Michael Ejercito said...
Hell is just punishment for sin.
Sun Jun 21, 06:02:00 PM 2009
Steve Wells said...
Hell is just punishment for sin.
Thanks clearing that up, Michael.
Who will be going there?
Sun Jun 21, 06:23:00 PM 2009
Tim Lass said...
It is indeed a damnable doctrine. The idea that un-repentant humans will spend all eternity in Hell for a mere few decades of sin has done more to destroy faith in God and the scriptures than the theory of evolution had ever dreamed of accomplishing. And if eternal torment for the wicked is true, then in the ceasless ages of happiness and joy to follow, how would you explain the loving benevolent character of God, if he is overseeing the torture of other human beings somewhere? ...and for all eternity no less. No rational thinking person would possibly approach, let alone love such a God. That's not the God of the Bible. That's a sadistic monster.
I am so glad that this "damnable doctrine" is not true; that the Bible actually teaches no such thing. The scriptures do clearly teach that there will be eternal death for the wicked; but it is a true unconcious death. Eternal torment is not eternal death, it's actually eternal life, in Hell.
Care for for a fuller explaination? Write.
Sat Apr 06, 07:09:00 PM 2013
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30 March 2009The Seventh Plague of Egypt: Hail shall come down upon them, and they shall die
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10. The seventh plague of Egypt: Hail
In the first of the famous ten plagues of Egypt, God forced Egyptians to drink blood (human blood according to the apocryphal book of Wisdom), and only blood, for seven days. Since it is not possible to survive for long when only drinking blood, I estimated that one-half of the Egyptians (1.5 million) died in the first plague.
But God was only getting started. Here are the next five plagues:
Frogs. (8.1-7)
Lice. (8.16-19)
Flies (8.21-24)
All cattle in Egypt die. (9.3-6)
Festering boils on man and beast. (9.9-10)
The Bible doesn't say whether anyone died from these plagues. Frogs, lice, flies, dead animals as far as you can see, and boils covering every person and animal in Egypt. These things were probably unpleasant. But did it kill anyone? There's just no way of knowing.
But the Bible is clear about the seventh plague: hail.
Upon every man and beast which shall be found in the field … the hail shall come down upon them, and they shall die. ... So there was hail, and fire mingled with the hail, very grievous ... And the hail smote throughout all the land of Egypt all that was in the field, both man and beast. Exodus 9:19-25
So God killed everybody in Egypt who was out and about that day with fire and hail (except Israelites).
Only in the land of Goshen, where the children of Israel were, was there no hail. 9:26
But how many people would that have been?
Well, the Egyptian population is estimated to have been 3 million at the time the Exodus supposedly happened (McEvedy and Jones 1978), and God already killed half of them in the first plague. So if maybe 10% of the surviving Egyptians were in the field at the time, about 150 thousand would have been killed by God's fiery hailstorm.
God's next killing: firstborn Egyptian children
Posted by Steve Wells at 3/30/2009 10:13:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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5 comments:
busterggi said...
I've got to take you task again Steve for being too generous.
Ancient Egypt was an agricultural society, almost everyone worked outdoors. Better set that estimate at more like 60%, remember women & children also worked in the fields.
Now, isn't 500,000 a much more realistic figure?
By the way, if the Egyptians livestock had already been killed in the 5th plague was it really necessary to kill them again with the 7th plague?
Mon Mar 30, 02:27:00 PM 2009
Steve Wells said...
Good point, busterggi.
I've changed it to 300,000.
Mon Mar 30, 04:58:00 PM 2009
Blue Mako said...
"By the way, if the Egyptians livestock had already been killed in the 5th plague was it really necessary to kill them again with the 7th plague?"
And animal firstborns are killed in the last plague. And even after all that, Pharaoh apparently still had horses to draw those chariots...
I never did understand the frog plague, though. God's punishing Egypt by sending hordes of one of the least threatening animals there is?
Tue Mar 31, 01:15:00 PM 2009
matt311 said...
Wow. So much for God the merciful...
Tue Mar 31, 01:16:00 PM 2009
busterggi said...
Apparently Yahweh doen's know basic physics. If you combine hail with fire you get warm rain.
Tue Mar 31, 02:07:00 PM 2009
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27 March 2009God's Killings in Genesis: A summary
OK. I think I'm done with Genesis now. Here's a summary. Killing Event Verse Estimated number killed
1 Noah's Flood Genesis 7:23 20,000,000?
2 Sodom and Gomorrah Genesis 19:24 1,000?
3 Lot's wife Genesis 19:26 1
4 Er who was "wicked in the sight of the Lord" Genesis 38:7, 1 Chronicles 2:3 1
5 Onan for spilling his seed Genesis 38:10 1
6 A 7 year, world-wide famine Genesis 41:25-54 70,000 ?
So in Genesis, there were 6 killing events, with 3 named victims, and an estimated total of 30 million or so.
But there are a few things that I've left off the list that I should mention, since they provide more evidence of God's murderous nature.
God sent "great plagues" on the Pharaoh for believing Abraham's lie (about Sarah being his sister). Since the Bible doesn't say what these plagues were or whether or not anyone died in them, I have left them off the list. Genesis 12:17
God either commanded or approved of animal sacrifices to him by Abel, Noah, and Abraham.
God threatened to kill Abimelech and his people for believing Abraham's lie (about the ever-beautiful 90 year old Sarah being his sister). Genesis 20:3-7
God told Abraham to abandon his first son (Ishmael) and Hagar (Ishmael's mother) in the desert. Genesis 21:10-14
God commanded Abraham to kill his second son (Isaac) by offering him as a burned sacrifice, and God rewarded Abraham for being willing to do so. Genesis 22:2-13
Jacob's sons tricked all of the men of a city and then killed them (after first having them all circumcised), taking their wives and children captive. God didn't seem to mind. Genesis 34:1-31 (Brick Testament Story)
"The terror of God was on cities round about them." Since the Bible doesn't say what "the terror of God" was or whether any people were killed by it, I have left it off the list. Genesis 34:5
Let me know if I've missed anything. Otherwise, I'm off to Exodus.
Posted by Steve Wells at 3/27/2009 10:16:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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11 comments:
David said...
Steve,
Are you familiar with the books of Jonathan Kirsch? Several of them deal with themes like this.
Fri Mar 27, 10:53:00 AM 2009
Steve Wells said...
Yeah, I have read several of his books (King David, Moses, The Harlot by the Side of the Road, and God Against the Gods). I really enjoyed them.
Fri Mar 27, 11:16:00 AM 2009
busterggi said...
C'mon, the total for a world-wide famine is way more than 10,000. Consider WORLD-wide means all five continents plus island dwellers.
100,000 maybe but I'd think even that would be conservative.
Fri Mar 27, 03:15:00 PM 2009
Steve Wells said...
busterggi,
I agree, 10,000 is probably too low. Maybe I should make it 100,000.
Does anyone else have an opinion on this?
Fri Mar 27, 04:19:00 PM 2009
I am the wise fool. said...
It's all just silly speculation, but I would have to agree with busterggi, 10,000 is a bit too low. 100,000 seems a better, if still conservative estimate.
Hmmm, if only there was historic evidence to shed light on the matter... ;-)
Fri Mar 27, 05:48:00 PM 2009
matt311 said...
I think you should bump it up, as well; makes God all the prouder to have a few more nameless corpses under his belt.
Fri Mar 27, 06:10:00 PM 2009
Steve Wells said...
OK. How about 70,000? 10k for each year of the world-wide famine.
Fri Mar 27, 06:23:00 PM 2009
matt311 said...
Works for me.
By the way, might I add that this is probably one of the best blogs on the Net? :)
Fri Mar 27, 08:56:00 PM 2009
Steve Wells said...
OK. I'll bump the 7 year world-wide famine death total to 70,000.
Thanks for the suggestion.
Sat Mar 28, 02:31:00 PM 2009
FrodoSaves said...
I'm looking forward to how you'll deal with Jesus. Will he be counted in each book that vividly features his death? Will you have to amend your figures when he's resurrected, and then change them back when he ascends in to heaven? Biblical statistics is truly a tricky discipline.
Sat Mar 28, 08:39:00 PM 2009
Mellabelle said...
The wages of SIN is death whether Satan claims a soul or God. Perhaps there is a higher (Spiritual) thought than the earthly way one thinks about death. God designed us to live forever so we hate death. He put the tree in the center of all places--but to give a choice. He explained death would occur but Eve went around Life to death. I think God was pissed about death. I think He is ALL Powerful but He is also limited by things in spirit realms we just don't comprehend. All that to say, if your gonna compare God and Satan--do it fairly. There's not much about the dust eater in Genesis.
Mon Apr 06, 01:19:00 PM 2009
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21 March 2009The Terror of God (God is a terrorist)
And they journeyed: and the terror of God was upon the cities that were round about them, and they did not pursue after the sons of Jacob. Genesis 35:5
So "the terror of God" was on entire cities?
It would be nice to have more details here. How did God terrorize the people in these cities? Did he fly planes into buildings or what?
I suppose God could have terrorized people without killing anyone. So I won't add this to the list of people killed by God.
But then, we already knew that God is a murderer. Now we know that he is a terrorist, too. (Or he would be if he existed.)
Posted by Steve Wells at 3/21/2009 08:22:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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Ian G. said...
Considering that the God of the Bible most resembles people like Stalin, Hitler, Saddam Hussein, and Kim Jong Il, I'm going to guess the "terror of God upon the cities" was kind of like the terror experienced by people in places like Lidice and Halabja.
Sat Mar 21, 01:03:00 PM 2009
Steve Wells said...
Yeah, you're probably right, Ian. Maybe I should add another few thousand to God's total.
Sat Mar 21, 01:49:00 PM 2009
busterggi said...
Between the nuking of Sodom & Gommorah & the biological warfare of various plagues, Yahweh is the inventor of terrorism.
Sat Mar 21, 08:30:00 PM 2009
Alex said...
It's a pretty high total as it is!
Just wanted to let you know I really enjoy, in a strange way, the blog.
Sat Mar 21, 08:38:00 PM 2009
I Am said...
Since the Bible openly admits God is a terrorist (I checked a number of other translations besides the KJV, and they all said "terror", too), it would be difficult for a believer to argue against this. God is a terrorist.
Too bad Nebraska State Sen. Ernie Chamber's lawsuit against God was dismissed recently. But forget that minor setback. As a terrorist, God could certainly still be pursued under the Patriot Act. Certainly we don't want an omnipotent terrorist around. I feel extraordinary rendition (supernatural rendition?) might be justified to protect America. Not to torture or terrorize God, mind you: we wouldn't want to stoop to his level. Just to get him out of here to protect us from any future terrorists acts against our citizens (Katrina, etc.).
Sun Mar 22, 11:41:00 AM 2009
matt311 said...
At least other terrorists aren't as worshipped as God is, or aren't made up.
Fri Mar 27, 06:07:00 PM 2009
Rob said...
maybe this is what we 'get' (end up with) when fundamentalists write "history' (in this case, the Bible)!! i wonder if there were other perspectives (that we'll never know about)?
Thu Apr 09, 08:07:00 AM 2009
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11 March 2009God's seven year, world-wide famine
This one is all about Joseph. There's a whole series of stupid Joseph stories in Genesis: Jacob loved Joseph more than his other children (Genesis 37.3); Joseph's brothers throw him in a well (37.24); Joseph is rescued from the well and sold to the Ishmaelites (37.28); Joseph goes to prison after being falsely accused of rape (39.20); Joseph interprets the dream of his cellmate (40.8-19); Joseph interprets the Pharaoh's dream (41.25-32); the Pharaoh makes Joseph the overseer of all of Egypt (41.33).
The Bible isn't too clear on this, but as near as I can tell, God starved everyone on earth so that Joseph could become the most powerful person in Egypt by interpreting the Pharaoh's dream so that God could get the Israelites enslaved by Pharaoh and then rescue them by sending plagues on the Egyptians. Or something like that.
OK. That all makes perfect sense. But what was the Pharaoh's dream?
Well, there were these seven fat, good looking cows that came out of the Nile, followed by seven skinny, ugly cows. The skinny cows ate the fat ones.
And it came to pass … that Pharaoh dreamed: and, behold, he stood by the river. And, behold, there came up out of the river seven well favoured kine and fatfleshed; and they fed in a meadow. And, behold, seven other kine came up after them out of the river, ill favoured and leanfleshed; and stood by the other kine upon the brink of the river. And the ill favoured and leanfleshed kine did eat up the seven well favoured and fat kine. So Pharaoh awoke. Genesis 41.1-4
Then Pharaoh had another dream. This time seven skinny heads of grain ate seven fat ones.
And he slept and dreamed the second time: and, behold, seven ears of corn came up upon one stalk, rank and good. And, behold, seven thin ears and blasted with the east wind sprung up after them. And the seven thin ears devoured the seven rank and full ears. And Pharaoh awoke, and, behold, it was a dream. 41.5-7
No one could interpret Pharaoh's dream. So they called Joseph. Joseph said it was simple. God was going to send seven good years followed by seven years of famine. And the famine would be world-wide and "very grievous."
This is the thing which … God is about to do.…There come seven years of great plenty throughout all the land of Egypt: And there shall arise after them seven years of famine. … It shall be very grievous. … The thing is established by God, and God will shortly bring it to pass. 41.28-32
Joseph said the Pharaoh should have the Egyptians store up food during the seven good years so they wouldn't starve (like everyone else) during the bad.
And it all happened just like Joseph said it would. The Pharaoh did what Joseph suggested and had Joseph oversee it all. And Joseph became the most powerful person in Egypt.
So things worked out well for Joseph, but not so well for everyone else.
When the famine struck, everyone on earth (including the Egyptians) had to buy their food from Joseph. If they couldn't make it to Egypt or didn't have enough money, they starved. It was all part of God's plan.
The seven years of dearth began to come, according as Joseph had said: and the dearth was in all lands … And the famine was over all the face of the earth … And all countries came into Egypt to Joseph for to buy corn; because that the famine was so sore in all lands. 41.54-57
But how many people starved to death during God's seven year famine?
I have no idea. But since the Bible says it was “over all the face of the earth” and was a "very grievous famine," I figure it must have been at least 70,000 or so, 10,000 each year.
God's next killing: The seventh plague of Egypt: hail
Posted by Steve Wells at 3/11/2009 09:59:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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Nathan said...
I've always wondered about the heavy usage of the number seven in the Bible. I think it might have come from the Babylonians, and the seven visible planets.
Hmmm, God has seven spirits, and people don't call him by his actual name. I've got it! Voldemort is disguising himself as God!
Wed Mar 11, 06:31:00 PM 2009
busterggi said...
Hmmm....
If there was worldwide famine that only friends of Joseph survived then where did all those Moabites, Canaanites & others that the Hebrews had to war against after the exodus come from?
Thu Mar 12, 06:23:00 AM 2009
I Am said...
While it's true the Bible isn't 100% clear on this (the Bible is good at not being clear), I think Steve and wise fool are right. Joseph (reportedly) interpreted the dream correctly, and in that interpretation he said God would send the famine. I would think if God didn't actually cause it, he'd speak up or punish Joseph for falsely pinning the famine on him.
So notch yet another mass murder for the big guy. God is kind of like a homicidal Energizer bunny. He keeps killing, and killing, and killing...
Thu Mar 12, 12:28:00 PM 2009
busterggi said...
Bet those poor starving folks in China & Meso-America were really puzzled about what they'd done wrong.
Fri Mar 13, 12:08:00 PM 2009
Nathan said...
Maybe they all ate each other.
Fri Mar 13, 05:31:00 PM 2009
Ian G. said...
busterggi,
They probably came from the same place Cain's wife came from.
Fri Mar 13, 07:54:00 PM 2009
FrodoSaves said...
When the famine struck, everyone on earth (including the Egyptians) had to buy their food from Joseph
That's a little like taking your dinghy down to New Orleans during Katrina and demanding a soggy Andrew Jackson before letting anyone on board.
No, wait. It's exactly like that.
Fri Mar 13, 09:47:00 PM 2009
matt311 said...
Why did God like Joseph again? All the guy's really famous for is his Technicolor Dreamcoat, anyway... :P
Fri Mar 27, 06:06:00 PM 2009
REX said...
Joseph's 7 year global famine can now be proven!
JOSEPH 7 YEAR FAMINE
Joseph lived for 110 years 1741-1631 B.C. (Genesis 50:26) Joseph age 30 (Genesis 41:40-46) became governor of Egypt in 1711 B.C. There was 7 years of great harvest and the second year of famine Joseph age 39 in 1702 B.C. met his father Jacob age 130 (Genesis 47:9) in Egypt. Global famine 1704-1697 B.C. (Genesis 41:1-57)
(1) Jacob brought the starving Hebrew people into Egypt settling near Biblical On (Genesis 41:45) Heliopolis, Egypt in 1702 B.C.
(2) Starving Hyksos Canaanite chieftain Sheshi lead his people into Avaris, Egypt trading their horses for bread (Genesis 47:13-17) in 1702 B.C. during the world famine. (Genesis 41:57)
(3) Starving Minoans from Crete also settle in Egypt’s delta in 1700 B.C. Other Minoans migrate to mainland Greece in 1700 B.C. spreading their Minoan culture there.
(4) Starving Indo-European Sealanders invade Amorite Babylon king Abi-Eshuh 1710-1684 B.C. settling in southern Babylonia in 1700 B.C. Abi-Eshuh dams up the Tigris river trying to starve the Sealanders out.
(5) Starving Indo-European tribes invade Dravidan dominated India in 1700 B.C. Indo-Europeans destroy the Dravidan Mohenjo-Daro civilizatin in 1700 B.C.
(6)Starving Indo-European tribes invade western China in 1700 B.C. Chinese archaelogist discovered Indo-European mummies in western China. The Indo-Europeans introduced the Chinese to the horse driven chariot. NOTE: Indo-European Kassites were first to use the horse driven chariot attacking Babylon in the reign of Amorite Babylon king Samsu-iluna 1750-1711 B.C. in his 9th year in 1741 B.C. NOTE: Joseph age 30 was given the Egyptian pharaoh’s 2nd chariot in 1711 B.C. (Genesis 41:43)
(7) Chinese Shang Dynasty very early in the dynasty recorded a 7 year famine verifying Joseph’s account of the 7 year global famine in Egypt. (Genesis 41:57)
(8) The American agricultural Indians establish the Poverty Point Mound Culture in Louisiana in 1700 B.C. building their first city in North America during the world famine.
(9) Olmecs migrate into the Yucatan Peninsula in 1700 B.C. Archaeologist state the Olmecs invented plumbing and the Olmecs were interested in water conservtion at this time in world history.
(10) Joseph’s account of the world famine (Genesis 41:57) is supported by archaelogy and the migrations of ancient people’s in 1700 B.C. Why not pass this information along to people who are interested in Biblical history.
Sun Jan 06, 05:26:00 AM 2013
REX said...
Israel became a nation reborn on May 14, 1948
Four red moons followed. (1) April 13, 1949 Passover blood red moon (2)October 7, 1949 Sukkot blood red moon (3)April 2, 1950 Passover blood red moon (4)September 26, 1950 blood red moon.
June 6 Day War in 1967. (1)April 24, 1967 Passover blood red moon (2) October 18, 1967 Sukkot blood red moon(3)April 13, 1968 Passover blood red moon (4)October 6, 1968 Sukkot blood red moon. (One red moon before the 6 Day War followed by three more red moons)
What will happen in 2013 since Four blood red moons will follow? OR will April 15,2014 pass with one red moon like what happened in the Six Day War followed by three red moons meaning the Sunni Arabs will go to war against Israel sometime after April 15,2014 and before October 8,2014?
(1)April 15,2014 Passover blood red moon (2)October 8,2014 Sukkot blood red moon (3)April 4,2015 Passover blood red moon (4)September 28,2015 Sukkot blood red moon.
Will 2013 A.D. be the year when Israel crushes the Sunni Arab terrorists living along all her borders in fulfillment of the Psalms 83 prophecy? Or will this prophecy fulfillment take place after April 2014 & before October 8,2014?
Syrian president Assad has told his generals should he die he wants his generals to launch their rockets upon Israel’s cities. Should the Syrian commanders follow Assad’s advice Damascus will be destroyed (Isaiah 17:1) in one night. (Isaiah 17:14)
God used the sun to help Joshua destroy Israel’s ancient enemies. (Joshua 10:12-14) Today, God uses the four red moons to warn the Israelites their enemies plans of attack.
Thu Feb 21, 07:36:00 AM 2013
michael ukattah said...
he said my sheep shall know my voice...understandable that his text sounds like a bed time story...lol...dwell with yourselves...you dead Mann's bones smh....
Sun May 05, 03:26:00 PM 2013
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09 March 2009The Lord Tried to Kill Him: God's first failed murder attenpt
OK, I'm done with Genesis. I found five divine killing episodes.
The Flood
Sodom and Gomorrah
Lot's wife
Er
Onan
If I've missed any, let me know. I don't want to get God pissed off. I know how proud he is of his killings.
Now on to Exodus.
Which leads me to the topic of this post. It is one of the strangest stories in a book filled with strange stories. And it all happens so fast, you'll miss it if you're not careful.
But first a little background. (Context is everything, as believers like to say.)
In the previous chapter (Exodus 3), Moses has a long conversation with God, who is cleverly disguised as a burning bush. God tells Moses to return to Egypt and rescue the Israelites. God says that he will smite the Egyptians with all his wonders and all the Israelites have to do is steal the Egyptians' possessions.
But Moses is worried that the Pharaoh might not listen to him. So God teaches him some magic tricks. He shows him how to throw his rod on the ground and turn it into a snake. Then grab the snake by the tail and it becomes a rod again. How cool is that?
In case that doesn't work, God shows Moses how to make his own hand leprous, and then make it normal again.
And finally, the God's third trick is to turn water into blood. God says that that ought to do it.
But Moses is still unconvinced. What if they still don't believe him? He's not that great a public speaker, ya know.
Then God says, "Who made the dumb, deaf, and the blind? Have not I the Lord?" If he can make people dumb, deaf, and blind, he can do anything.
But Moses is still unsure of himself, so God tells him to bring his brother Aaron along. He's a smooth talker. They'll believe him.
And even if they don't, it won't matter. God says that even with all his snake, leper, and blood tricks, the Pharaoh still won't believe. Because God "will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go."
So the whole thing is pointless, really. Moses and Aaron are going to do all the neat tricks, but they will fail because God will harden the Pharaoh's heart.
And then God throws in one more thing.
And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn. Exodus 4:22-23
And that's it. That's the context.
Now for the rest of the story.
And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and sought to kill him. Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me. So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision. Exodus 4:24-26
Moses heads off on a mission from God, God meets him along the way and tries to kill him.
The Bible doesn't say why God tried to kill the guy he just taught his tricks to. But apparently it had something to do with foreskin.
Moses' son wasn't circumcised, I guess, and it really pissed off God, so he tried to kill Moses. Lucky his wife (Zipporah) quickly figured out what God was bugged about, grabbed a sharp rock and cut off her son's foreskin -- all before God could kill Moses. Whew!
OK. Try to top that story!
Can you believe that over 3 billion people believe this stuff?
(Fortunately, fewer and fewer do each day.)
Posted by Steve Wells at 3/09/2009 09:00:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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busterggi said...
That Yahweh, what a kidder!
"So the whole thing is pointless, really. Moses and Aaron are going to do all the neat tricks, but they will fail because God will harden the Pharaoh's heart."
Its not pointless if it gets Yahweh's rocks off! And he is known for his twisted sense of humor.
But the whole foreskin thing, why did he put them on his creations if he didn't want them there? Must be he did that the same day he designed shrimp.
Mon Mar 09, 12:24:00 PM 2009
FrodoSaves said...
I would just like to express my deep thanks for this free education which you are providing the lesser biblically-informed.
Mon Mar 09, 09:55:00 PM 2009
C Woods said...
I have been enjoying your posts. They are informative and witty. And, NO, I can't believe over 3 billion people believe this stuff, Some are my friends and relatives, very intelligent people, but they just don't think.
I am looking forward to more from you.
I included your blog in my lengthy list of Freethought Resources on my blog: "My Thoughts Are Free"
http://tirelesswing.blogspot.com/
If you are unaware of the 2009 "Blog Against Theocracy" event, see my post on 3/11/09 for information.
Mon Mar 09, 10:22:00 PM 2009
C Woods said...
Correction to my above comment:
I will be posting the information about Blog Against Theocracy on 3/13/09 (not the 11th.)
Mon Mar 09, 10:42:00 PM 2009
geniusofevil said...
wth?
my favorite part is this:
"Who made the dumb, deaf, and the blind? Have not I the Lord?"
It's as if he's telling Moses he impaired people so they'd believe in him.
Tue Mar 10, 09:04:00 AM 2009
I am the wise fool. said...
Hi Steve,
Thanks for all your hard work!
I think you missed one Genesis divine killing though, and a big one at that. That would be the famine which ultimately resulted in the Israelite slavery. Genesis 41:56-57 claims it was worldwide, while Genesis 45:4-11 claims that Joseph was sold into slavery "preserve for you a remnant on earth", which sounds to me like many people died during this famine.
I go into greater detail about it on my blog series "God Play God", starting with the link below.
http://ponderingtruth.blogspot.com/2009/01/god-playing-god-part-1.html
All the best to you!
Tue Mar 10, 07:33:00 PM 2009
Steve Wells said...
Thanks wise fool.
I think you're on to something, here. In Genesis 41:25, 28, and 32, Joseph states that God is causing the famine. Verse 41:56 says that the famine "was over all the face of the earth" and it lasted for 7 years. Joseph saved the Egyptians by storing up food during the 7 years before the famine, but everywhere else people must have starved.
How many people starved to death in the 7 years of world-wide famine? Maybe 10,000?
You're right wise fool. I missed a big one!
Tue Mar 10, 08:20:00 PM 2009
I am the wise fool. said...
How many died is a very good question! It's really tough to say, of course. It would be all speculation. However, if you consider that with the Tower of Babel incident the whole world supposedly got populated by different peoples speaking different languages. The best that I can figure is that it was approximately 700 years between the Babel and this world-wide God-caused famine. If we are to believe Bible-exponential population growth, meaning that about 70 Israelites turned into a million plus people in 430 years, then I would say it is entirely possible that the earth would have had a population that exceeded the one billion mark at that time in Biblical history. Not everyone who could not make it to Egypt would have died from the famine. So a conservative estimate of 1/10, or about one million people plus, sounds right.
However, that would conflict with actual history. So you’ll have to figure out the best number to use there! ;-)
Thu Mar 12, 06:22:00 PM 2009
FrodoSaves said...
Funny that we often refer to the deaths of people who may never have existed to demonstrate the extreme barbarity of a god that probably doesn't exist either.
Thu Mar 12, 06:35:00 PM 2009
Louise said...
It's all rather twisted and very weird isn't it?
One of the things I could never understand is the fact that God hardens Pharoah's heart, but then punishes him by killing off the first born. He is punishing a guy for doing something God is making him do??
I guess that this god guy just has an extreme love of violence and shoddy logic.
Oddly enough I had never heard of that foreskin story before. I've just nicked my housemate's bible from her room and am checking it up, and yes it's right there. I wonder how I missed it before. What a completely twisted little story!!
On a plus side lots of people who consider themselves Christians don't believe these stories. (At least they don't in the UK). They just say they believe in God. I have lost count of the number of people who either have no idea about what they are supposed to believe in or those who say that they figure the bible is metaphorical but that doesn't stop them from believing in their god.
Sun Mar 22, 07:07:00 AM 2009
matt311 said...
This is proof of what I've suspected all along: God is homicidal and suffers from attention-deficit disorder. That's probably why he couldn't kill Moses: "Ooh, look at the pretty foreskin!"
Fri Mar 27, 05:59:00 PM 2009
Blue Mako said...
"One of the things I could never understand is the fact that God hardens Pharoah's heart, but then punishes him by killing off the first born. He is punishing a guy for doing something God is making him do??"
This. The whole Exodus story is just God being a complete dick. He sends Moses to free the Israelites, then mind controls Pharaoh so that he *won't*, and then rains destruction on Egypt to punish them for their ruler not doing something *he's* preventing said ruler from doing!
Tue Mar 31, 12:57:00 PM 2009
Evan said...
Wow, that is a great question about Pharoah,I noticed while I was reading Exodus recently that at first it only says that Pharoah hardens his heart, and only after he makes his decision to harden his heart several times does God "harden his heart".
Often times God's wrath is a bit misunderstood, often God's wrath means he let's us get what we want. ie we decide to ignore him and our lives get hard becuase we are dragged down by the results of our bad decisions.(ie drug addications) and then when our lives get really bad we cry out. We are angry at God.
Wed Jan 12, 08:01:00 PM 2011
Thankful said...
Always accountable before the Lord. Sir, you may have much to say in your unbelief, but you have to say it to the One who created you. And, yes, God gets pissed off. Remember that.
Wed Apr 13, 10:11:00 PM 2011
Kirubakaran said...
Ebanesar Kirubakaran said:
Q : Why God tried to kill Moses?
Ans: How did Zipporah Know that the lord tried to kill Moses because he is not circumcised?
Assumption 1: Zipporah And Moses already knew and Discused each other about doing circumcision.
Then Why They were reluctant in doing circumcision?
God has a specific plan in Moses "LIFE" So He is not feared about his "LIFE".It reduced fear of God Too.
Moses Assumed that God will never take my "LIFE" for not doing circumcision.So That God threatened Moses "LIFE" not to kill him
Assumption 2: God Would have warned him about circumcision before He tried to kill him.
Since He refused to listen.So God threaten him not to kill him
Tue Dec 13, 10:34:00 AM 2011
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08 March 2009Solomon was wiser than Heman
And Solomon's wisdom excelled the wisdom of all the children of the east country, and all the wisdom of Egypt. For he was wiser than ... Heman. 1 Kings 4:30-31
>
I just thought you should know that.
Posted by Steve Wells at 3/08/2009 09:20:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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8 comments:
Luke said...
You make me chuckle.
Sun Mar 08, 11:01:00 AM 2009
Matt S said...
who's Heman? Aside from master of the universe, that is.
Sun Mar 08, 11:32:00 AM 2009
Steve Wells said...
Matt,
The biblical Heman was a musician, father of 14 or more kids, and is said to be the author of Psalm 88 (which is one of my favorite Psalms).
That's about all that's known about him (except that he apparently had three fathers).
We know a lot more about the real He-Man.
Sun Mar 08, 12:03:00 PM 2009
FrodoSaves said...
Interesting that they have such similar hairstyles...
Mon Mar 09, 01:58:00 AM 2009
busterggi said...
I disagree!
Eternia was a strong untied kingdom, He-man has kept it one.
Israel, on the other hand, was divided into Israel & Judea by civil war thanks to Soloman's bungling political policies.
Mon Mar 09, 10:11:00 AM 2009
I Am said...
The (allegedly) fictional He-man from TV and comics presents a much better example than the book the (allegedly) real Heman comes from.
I think Christians should ask themselves, which would you rather expose your children to, a main character (He-man) who "is largely non-violent and usually only resorts to combat as a last resort, often preferring to outsmart his adversaries, his most violent actions typically consist of picking up an enemy and tossing him away like a rag doll" (wikipedia)
OR
a main character (Yahweh) who violently kills millions upon millions of people in a variety of nasty ways (Dwindling in Unbelief)>?
Eternia with He-man or eternity with God? I think the choice is clear.
Mon Mar 09, 06:48:00 PM 2009
matt311 said...
How can Solomon be wiser than He-Man? Unless...
HE HAS THE POWER!!! :D
Fri Mar 27, 05:52:00 PM 2009
Acts 2:38 said...
Very entertaining. Yet, King Solomon was wiser than all men of his day because of the Holy Spirit within him. And if you are wise then you will have God indwelling in you via belief in his name of Jesus and baptism in the same.
Sat Dec 19, 07:41:00 AM 2009
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06 March 2009God is a redhead.
I was just re-reading the story about Shechem and Dinah, trying to decide if God deserved at least some of the credit for the resulting massacre (I decided he didn't), when I noticed that chapter 33 of Genesis didn't have a single side note. It is (or was) the first "clean" chapter in the SAB.
But then I noticed something amazing. Something that I'd never noticed before. There, in verse 10 of chapter 33, the Bible tells us what God looks like. And it's nothing like Charlton Heston.
In this verse, Jacob is talking to his brother Esau when he says this:
I have seen thy face, as though I had seen the face of God. KJV: Genesis 33:10
To see your face is like seeing the face of God. NIV: Genesis 33:10
Now this is coming from a guy who (just a few verses ago) saw God face to face. So he should know. And he says that God looks just like Esau.
Luckily, the Bible describes Esau's appearance. He was all red and hairy.
And the first came out red, all over like an hairy garment; and they called his name Esau. Genesis 25:25
Esau was so hairy, in fact, that Jacob (with his mother Rebekah's coaching) stole his father Isaac's blessing by putting goat skin on his hands and neck so he would feel like Esau to his dear old, nearly blind and dying, dad.
And Jacob said to Rebekah his mother, Behold, Esau my brother is a hairy man, and I am a smooth man... And Rebekah ... put the skins of the kids of the goats upon his hands, and upon the smooth of his neck... And he came unto his father, and said ... I am Esau thy first born. Genesis 27:11-19
So Esau was red and hairy all over his body. And God (according to a guy who had seen them both many times up close and personal) looks just like him.
(Which is kind of strange, since God hates Esau.)
So now we know what God looks like.
Unless, of course, Jacob was a liar.
(Which he was. That's why God like him so much.)
Posted by Steve Wells at 3/06/2009 12:12:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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5 comments:
matt311 said...
DAMN, that's a scary photo. No wonder eveybody was afrad of God back in the OT; he certainly didn't look like the Brick Testament's conception of him... :P
Fri Mar 06, 08:28:00 PM 2009
Steve Wells said...
Actually, it's supposed to be Esau. But then, like Jacob says, God and Esau look pretty much the same.
Fri Mar 06, 09:05:00 PM 2009
busterggi said...
Yahweh is an orang utan?
It would explain a lot.
Fri Mar 06, 09:26:00 PM 2009
ozatheist said...
god's a ginger, a carrot top?
or is he one of these:
Kalahari-Red-Goat
Sun Mar 15, 07:37:00 PM 2009
drekmac said...
AHA! Finally proof that creationism and evolution can coincide!
Tue Jul 14, 06:51:00 PM 2009
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29 April 2009The Lord took off their chariot wheels
God's last mass murder pretty much did the trick. The night that God killed every firstborn Egyptian child and animal, Pharaoh told Moses to go.
He called for Moses and Aaron by night, and said, Rise up, and get you forth from among my people, both ye and the children of Israel; and go, serve the LORD, as ye have said. Also take your flocks and your herds, as ye have said, and be gone; and bless me also. Exodus 12:31-32
So Moses rounded up all three million or so Israelites, their flocks, herds, cattle, unleavened bread, and all the silver, gold, and clothes that they could steal from the Egyptians, and left town.
The people took their dough before it was leavened … and they borrowed of the Egyptians jewels of silver, and jewels of gold, and raiment … And they spoiled the Egyptians … about six hundred thousand on foot that were men, beside children … and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle. 12.34-38
And everything would have ended happily ever after, too, if God could have resisted the temptation to harden the Pharaoh's heart a few more times.
You see, the Pharaoh's heart was just too damned soft to suit God. So he set about hardening it a bit more. (He had to harden it 8 times in order to pull off his last killing.)
I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD. 14.4
And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh. 14.8
I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen. And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I have gotten me honour upon Pharaoh, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen. 14.17-18
So God hardened Pharaoh's heart some more and got himself a little more honor.
Of course he had to kill some more Egyptians so that they would know that he is the Lord. Sometimes you have to kill people in order to get to know them better.
So that's what God did. And you saw the movie so you know the rest of the story. God parted the sea so the Israelites could cross and then drowned the Egyptian army.
The LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand over the sea, that the waters may come again upon the Egyptians … and the LORD overthrew the Egyptians in the midst of the sea. … And the waters returned, and covered the chariots, and the horsemen, and all the host of Pharaoh that came into the sea after them; there remained not so much as one of them. 14.26-28
But part I like best they didn't show in the movie. God got right out there with his wrenches and whatnot and removed the wheels from the Egyptian chariots. How cool is that?
The LORD … took off their chariot wheels. 14.24-25
That would have been fun to watch.
OK. So how many Egyptians drowned to get God some more honor?
Well, we know there were at least 600, since that's how many chariots the Pharaoh sent after the Israelites.
And he took six hundred chosen chariots, and all the chariots of Egypt, and captains over every one of them. 14.7
But along with the chariots there were “horsemen, and all the host of Pharaoh” that chased after the three million or so escaping slaves.
So although I probably greatly underestimated the imaginary number, I guessed 5000.
God's next killing: Amalekites
Posted by Steve Wells at 4/29/2009 11:12:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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U.T. Raptor said...
I'm kind of wondering where he got the horses to pull the chariots, since the horses died in at least one of the previous plagues...
Fri May 01, 08:52:00 PM 2009
Steve Wells said...
Good point, UT. I forgot to mention that.
Fri May 01, 09:49:00 PM 2009
Baconsbud said...
have wonder for a while, why do christians say it was the Pharaoh that wouldn't let them go. If someone forces you to do something, it is mainly their fault. This is just another example of christians making up excuses for the faults of their god.
Sat May 02, 06:44:00 AM 2009
Ian G. said...
Well, we should all be happy to know that this story, like most of the stories in the Bible, is complete nonsense. There is no archaeological evidence for the Israelites ever having been in Egypt.
My best guess is that the massive eruption of the volcano on the Aegean island of Santorini around 1600 BC was the inspiration for this story, since it likely led to a tsunami in the Mediterranean that probably devastated the Egyptian coastline as well as the coastline of ancient Israel.
Sat May 02, 10:18:00 PM 2009
barriejohn said...
You forget Steve - God can do anything. Taking off chariot wheels is a doddle!!
Sun May 03, 01:53:00 AM 2009
FrodoSaves said...
Wouldn't a chariot without wheels be something like a boat? Is it possible that instead of trying to drown the Egyptians, he was just trying to level the playing field by giving them a mini armada?
Sun May 03, 05:31:00 AM 2009
I Am said...
That is a good point, UT! I never thought of that one. Who knows, maybe God created more horses just so he could drown them. He likes dead animals almost as much as he likes dead humans.
Another thing I never thought of: Steve's post mentions God taking the wheels off the chariots. It is a funny picture, and picturing it got me to thinking. Why would God choose to do specifically this method to stop the Egyptians?
This got me to wondering: when were wheels invented, in the Biblical view of history? As far as I know, the Bible doesn't say.
Searching BibleGateway, it appears Exodus 25 is the first time wheels are mentioned in the Bible. Interesting...This made me wonder: Did the Israelites even have wheels?
The Bible mentions "carts" towards the end of Genesis, which would presumably have wheels, but even these verses seems to indicate Egyptian origin. Genesis 45:19: "Take some carts from Egypt for your children and your wives, and get your father and come" (NIV).
Genesis 46:5: "Jacob left Beersheba, and Israel's sons took their father Jacob and their children and their wives in the carts that Pharaoh had sent to transport him." (NIV). The carts they use seem to be Egyptian. No mention of wheels, carts, chariots, etc. for the building of Noah's Ark (which may be a good thing, given Noah's lack of sobriety!).
Hmm...It's possible that the Egyptians had the wheel, while the Israelites did not. What do you guys think?
That would be a huge advantage the Egyptians had over the Israelites. If the Egyptians and their gods were smarter and more advanced than the Israelites and their god Yahweh, what better way for (a jealous?) Yahweh to get back at them than to take away their high-tech wheels and drown them before they could escape?
This is pure speculation, but since we're speculating on how many Egyptians this killed, I thought it might be interesting to speculate about why God chose this way to kill them. The Egyptians may have had their fancy state-of-the-art wheels, but Yahweh of Flood fame could still drown them old school!
Mon May 04, 11:33:00 PM 2009
I Am said...
I meant to say Exodus 14:25 is the first time wheels are mentioned in the Bible (not Exodus 25).
Mon May 04, 11:38:00 PM 2009
matt311 said...
Wow; never knew God could get so ridiculously down and dirty, but, since this is coming from a guy who, until a few months ago, used to attend church, well... ;)
Tue May 05, 02:10:00 PM 2009
David said...
If the Egyptians only had iron chariots they would have been spared
Tue May 05, 08:07:00 PM 2009
barriejohn said...
They`re just stories I Am, as I`m sure you`re aware, so these things happen, in the main, to add dramatic effect! As with the fables of Robin Hood and King Arthur, as well as other more verifiable historical figures, some of the stories surrounding them are mere myths, others really happened, and some are based on real events which occurred elsewhere and to entirely different people. It is now impossible to know the truth, as it is lost in the mists of time.
Wed May 06, 01:18:00 AM 2009
Geds said...
You're actually talking about a minimum of 1800 Egyptians killed.
Standard Egyptian chariot tactics at the time of Ramses required a three-man team: one driver, one archer, and a runner who went alongside and defended the chariot from opposing infantry. Of course, ancient armies were combined-arms forces and rarely deployed with only one type of troop on the ground.
At the Battle of Kadesh, one of the largest battles of the ancient Middle East and the largest chariot battle ever Ramses II (who, IIRC, is also supposed to be the Pharaoh of Moses' time) had an army that consisted of approximately 2000 chariots and 16,000 infantry. So if we take similar ratios and assume Pharaoh sent infantry along with his chariots (which I would, what with their being millions of Jews out there and all...), we can assume there were just under 5000 infantry troops committed. So now we're talking about a death toll of nearly 7000.
Of course even with that the Jews probably outnumbered the Pharaoh's army nearly 5000:1. The adult males by themselves outnumbered their pursuers nearly 10:1. Even if we assume that the Egyptians were a well-trained force and the chariots operated as a large force multiplier, there's simply no way that the Egyptians could have stopped the Jews in their egress.
Meanwhile, I've seen estimates of the population of the New Kingdom period of Egypt at between 3 and 5 million. The idea of Egypt keeping a slave population of approximately the same size as its regular population -- especially when his muster for an important campaign against the Hittites came to just about 20,000 troops and the Hittites outnumbered him nearly two-to-one at Kadesh -- is patently absurd.
Now, assuming I haven't taken up too much space already, I can offer a hypothesis. During the reign of Ramses II the Egyptians were attacked by the mysterious "Sea People." Ramses fought them off and they ended up settling in Canaan. Chances are they intermingled with the Semite population that already lived there. It's entirely possible that the Exodus story came from that episode.
Mon May 11, 09:05:00 AM 2009
Steve Wells said...
Thanks, Geds. That was very interesting.
So I'm off by an order of magnitude or so? Maybe I should change it to 10,000.
Any other thoughts on this?
Mon May 11, 12:29:00 PM 2009
barriejohn said...
Yes, very interesting Geds, but surely the Biblical numbers are purely mythical anyway, as are the events recorded (as you say)? Perhaps you can answer this question for me though: would it be correct to say that there is absolutely NO evidence for any significant Hebrew slave force in Ancient Egypt at the supposed time of The Exodus? I haven`t come across any, but things do change!
Mon May 11, 01:16:00 PM 2009
I Am said...
barriejohn, yes I realize that the story is mostly or entirely made-up, it was just a thought I had about why they might have made up that specific story.
Maybe it was just for dramatic effect, as you said. But a lot of times there is another story hidden behind the main action of a story that says something about the times the story was written in, whether put there intentionally (as is often the case in sci-fi) or not.
My thought about wheels may have absolutely nothing to do with the actual creation of the story, I just thought I'd throw it out there.
Mon May 11, 08:39:00 PM 2009
barriejohn said...
To the best of my knowledge there is only ONE hieroglyph in Egypt which refers to "Hebrews", and then not as residents in the land, but this information may well be out of date now! (Evangelicals used to latch onto it as "proof" that the Book of Exodus is historically accurate, whereas in actual fact it really demonstrates the opposite!!) "Mosis" is an Egyptian name, so it is certainly possible that a minor Egyptian royal did lead some of the Hebrews in battle against other Canaanite tribes, and some candidates have been put forward, but of course this just shoots great holes in the Biblical story!!!
Tue May 12, 03:11:00 AM 2009
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26 April 2009What verse is Carrie Prejean reading?
It's hard to tell, but it looks like it's from near the end of the Old Testament.
It's probably something on Biblically correct "opposite marriage."
Maybe it's
Thou hast ... madest to thyself images of men, and didst commit whoredom with them. Ezekiel 16:17
Or
For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses. Ezekiel 23:20
Or
Thou shalt ... pluck off thine own breasts: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD. Ezekiel 23:34
Or
Drink thou also, and let thy foreskin be uncovered. Habakkuk 2:16
Or
Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces. Malachi 2:3
Which verse do you think it is?
Posted by Steve Wells at 4/26/2009 06:59:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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FrodoSaves said...
I actually think it's Mao's Little Red Book.
"In order to build a great socialist society it is of the utmost importance to arouse the broad masses of women to join in productive activity."
She's just doing her part to arouse broad masses of women. To join in (re)productive activity. Mmm.
Mon Apr 27, 05:24:00 AM 2009
barriejohn said...
The complaint about Alan Duncan`s comments re Ms Prejean was made by Rev George Hargreaves, millionaire ex-musician, founder of "The Christian Party", and aspiring politician. (He also financed the bus-ad campaign which virtually said: "There IS a God, so vote for me"!! He has so far met with embarrassing failure - hence his pathetic attempts at self-publicity.) The best comment on this further sad episode in "Bonkers`" life appears in the online report by the Sun. According to them, Hargreaves said of the delectable Carrie: "I`d love to invite her over and take her round the House of Commons"!!! `Nuff said!!!!!
Mon Apr 27, 06:02:00 AM 2009
busterggi said...
Rev. 23:9 "Yea, though Satan shall be cast into the pit, thw Whore of Babylon shall be named Miss Congeniality."
Tue Apr 28, 12:46:00 PM 2009
Markus Arelius said...
Simply awesome! This is exactly what we need. Just when we thought the Elisabeth Hasselbecks and Megyn Kelly's were in short supply!
Tue Apr 28, 04:04:00 PM 2009
C Woods said...
It's so hard to choose. She's sort of smiling, seems happy, maybe thinking some erotic thoughts, so I pick #2.
Wed Apr 29, 05:23:00 AM 2009
matt311 said...
I think it's #3, as she doesn't quite appear to be understanding what's on the page... ;)
Wed Apr 29, 11:30:00 PM 2009
barriejohn said...
Well, it`s certainly not from II Kings 9, where Jezebel "painted her face, and tired her head" and came to a VERY sticky end (nothing to do with ejaculation either!). Nor would it be from I Peter 3, where it says of good Christian women: "Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing gold, or of putting on of apparel." Funny how selective these fundies are when it comes to obeying the commands of "The Inspired Word of God"!!
Thu Apr 30, 12:49:00 PM 2009
busterggi said...
Nope, last night's news confirmed it - she's reading Song of Solomon 87:23 "Thy breasts are like twin bags of saline."
Fri May 01, 06:04:00 AM 2009
barriejohn said...
You don`t have to search far in Solomon`s Song before you come across erotic material busterggi. "Thy twin breasts are like two young roes that are twins, which feed among the lilies" etc! These passages cause much consternation in evangelical circles, and the brethren resort to omitting the more lurid verses in public reading, often without warning or explanation, which only serves to draw attention to them - hilarious!!
Fri May 01, 11:48:00 AM 2009
barriejohn said...
This bitch is campaigning to "Protect Religious Liberty" now!! (http://freethinker.co.uk ) I`m almost incandescent with rage!!!
Sun May 03, 01:51:00 AM 2009
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26 April 2009The LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt
God starts planning this mass murder in Chapter 3 of Exodus, and he doesn't stop talking about it until he kills every Egyptian firstborn child (and animal) in Exodus 12.
Here was the way God planned it.
On the night of the mass child murder, God told each Israelite family to find a year-old lamb without blemish, kill it, and wipe the blood on the top and sides of the door.
In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb … without blemish, a male of the first year … And ye shall … kill it in the evening. And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses. Exodus 12.3-7
That way when God came through Egypt looking for first born children and animals to kill, he would see the bloody door and “pass over” the house, saying to himself, “Oh yeah, I’m not supposed to kill any children or animals here.”
For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast … and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, 12.12-13
And that’s what happened.
At midnight God passed through Egypt killing every Egyptian first-born child and animal.
At midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle ... and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead. 12.29-30
Why did God do it?
Well, it seems that he did it mostly just to show off.
To show off his signs and wonders:
I will … smite Egypt with all my wonders. 3.20
I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt. 7.3
Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him. 10.1
The LORD said unto Moses, Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you; that my wonders may be multiplied in the land of Egypt. 11.9
To introduce himself to the Egyptians:
And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD. 7.5
To show what he can do:
Now shalt thou see what I will do to Pharaoh. 6.1
To show that there is nobody else on earth quite like him:
For I will at this time send all my plagues upon thine heart, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people; that thou mayest know that there is none like me in all the earth. 9:14
To make himself famous (so that everyone will know his name):
That my name may be declared throughout all the earth. 9.16
To give us a story to tell our children and grandchildren:
That thou mayest tell in the ears of thy son, and of thy son's son, what things I have wrought in Egypt. 10.2
To show that the whole earth belongs to him:
That thou mayest know how that the earth is the LORD's. 9.29
To prove that he is God:
In this thou shalt know that I am the LORD. 7.17
That ye may know how that I am the LORD. 10.2
To show that he likes Israelites more than Egyptians:
That ye may know how that the LORD doth put a difference between the Egyptians and Israel. 11.7
And to punish the Egyptian Gods:
Against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment. 12.12
Well, I guess those motives are about as good as any for a mass murder.
In any case, God is clearly proud of this one. And it's no wonder. It wasn't all that easy to pull off, even for God.
He had to harden the Pharaoh's heart eight times to make it all work out as planned. (Exodus 4.21; 7.3, 13; 9.12; 10.1, 20, 27; 11.10)
Some hearts are hard for even the Bible god to harden.
So how many were killed in this killing? Well, the population of Egypt at the time the Exodus supposedly occurred was about 3 million (McEvedy and Jones 1978). If half of the Egyptians were killed in the first plague, and 10% of the survivors were killed in the seventh (150,000), then 1,350,000 remained. If one-sixth of them were first born sons, then about 200,000 Egyptians were killed by God (or the angel sent by God to do his dirty work for him) in the tenth plague.
God's next killing: drowning the Egyptian army
Posted by Steve Wells at 4/26/2009 08:59:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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twillight said...
You very much underestimate the population of Egypt.
The number of Exodusing jew males above age 20 is given: 600,000. From this we can eszomate the whole jewish exodusing population being 3,000,000 person.
Consider that the Pharao went after them to CATH them and lead them back. So they needed a (much) bigger army then the jews.
So from these estimatons I'd say the egyptian population was around 25,000,000 before the 10th plague.
Sun Apr 26, 03:38:00 PM 2009
Steve Wells said...
You may be right, twilight.
But it's hard to take the Bible's 600,000 Israelite male number (Exodus 12:37) seriously.
I think I'd rather stick with the lower number from Wikipedia (unless someone can find a better estimate).
Sun Apr 26, 05:12:00 PM 2009
thebibleisstupid said...
But wait, if you can't trust the bible census figures, what part of it can you trust ?!
Sun Apr 26, 10:12:00 PM 2009
Steve Wells said...
Good point, tbis.
I suppose I should use the Bible's numbers when counting God's killings. If the Bible says there were several million Israelite slaves, then there must have been ten times as many Egyptians. Which means God must have killed five million or so Egyptian children.
So which number should I use? 0.5 million or 5 million?
Sun Apr 26, 10:19:00 PM 2009
busterggi said...
Why 5 million of course!
Its impolite to minimize Yahweh.
Mon Apr 27, 05:12:00 AM 2009
I am the wise fool. said...
Here's something to ponder too which may increase the death toll: The plague is on ALL of the firstborn. That is to say, it does not seem that the plague would account for age. So if I was an Egyptian grandfather and was the firstborn of my dad, then I would die, my firstborn son would die, and his firstborn son would die as well during this plague.
Mon Apr 27, 05:37:00 AM 2009
Steve Wells said...
OK, you've convinced me. I'll increase the estimate to one million.
According to the Bible, several million Israelites left Egypt in the Exodus. If so, then there must have been at least twice as many Egyptians. So if we use the Wikipedia's high estimate of 6 million Egyptians, and figure one-sixth of them were first-born sons, that would put the death toll at 1 million.
How does that sound? Would God be happy with that number?
Mon Apr 27, 08:32:00 AM 2009
Dave said...
I am sure He is all aglow. It is, after all, seven figures, and we know how fond God is of the number seven.
Tue Apr 28, 07:04:00 AM 2009
robyrt said...
The Hebrew/Egyptian population estimate here assumes too much. Slave populations are often much larger than the ethnic ruling class. 600 chariots against a completely unarmed, slow-moving train of Israelites would be basically unstoppable until the horses got tired, and sounds like a reasonably sized "police action" force to quiet a rebellion that never actually happened the previous 8 times.
Wed May 06, 12:34:00 PM 2009
Geds said...
Not really, robyrt.
Using a chariot for crowd control in the ancient world would be roughly equivalent to trying to use a tank now. You may well be able to keep frightened and cowed people freaked out with one, but you'd be heavily limited in its capabilities. There's a big problem, too, that if the goal is to get them to come back using a light offensive weapon in the role of captor wouldn't work so well.
Up until the Persians came out with the scythed chariot the weapon was used as a mobile, semi-stable arrow platform. There weren't really chariot duels and the chariots didn't wade in to the middle of enemy formations.
What would actually happen if a force of chariots engaged a column of 3 million people who could basically move in any direction is a slow tide of panic. People would see the chariots coming and begin running in all directions. The rear of the line would push in to the center invoking a further panic, which would then spread to the front. Those who weren't felled by an arrow, set upon by the infantry, or simply run over when they stepped in the path of a chariot would end up scattered all the hell over the place. Any chance of them being captured as a group would then be completely gone.
Of course if you have to march any length with the newly re-imprisoned folks in your charge you run in to a whole new problem. Any sufficiently large and determined group can simply overwhelm their captors if the weight of numbers is on their side. If we're talking one soldier for every few thousand captives, the tactical situation changes really fast. A local attempt to take down a sentry followed by calling for reinforcements from other soldiers followed by still more people taking advantage of local superiority in numbers would quickly cascade in to an unwinnable situation for the Egyptians.
Mon May 11, 09:58:00 AM 2009
twillight said...
I have a thought of the numbers estimated, and came to a very stroy-wise conclousion: 1 egyptian firstborn was sacrifiesed for each hebrew person! That'd give a very unique and "undertandable" (in a usual folcloric-tale way) meaning of the story, as it is really about the pashka.
So as we can estimate the jews' number arund 3 million the smited egyptians would be also 3 million!
Tue May 26, 11:24:00 AM 2009
rodger123 said...
Good comments. The question that should be asked is not why did God kill so many, but why did God not kill more. God was just in what he did. If you disagree with that then you don't realize the extent of your sinfulness and the extent of God's holiness, i.e. a misconception of who God is. Why did God not kill you in your sleep last night, since you are living in rebellion to him? He would be just in doing so. If God has given you another day then realize he has given you another opportunity to repent and receive his gift of forgiveness that only comes through faith in Jesus Christ. God is loving but he is also just. If you continue to live in rebellion to God you will receive justice, eternity in hell, if you repent and believe God will pardon your sin and give you mercy. You are a creature created by God and he can do whatever he likes with you. You have no rights, he can take you into eternity at any moment. Stop provoking God with your sin and seek mercy before it is too late. Read Romans 9, new testament, and you will see that the God of the new testament is the God of the old testament.
Fri Mar 22, 04:50:00 PM 2013
PaulP said...
Rodger you hit the nail on the head~if i had of written all that sinful rebellious mess above your comment-I would be scared to even close my eyes at night!You boys best get your act together and soon!
Thu Jun 20, 09:20:00 PM 2013
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08 April 2009How does God kill people? Let me count the ways.
And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died. -- Numbers 21:6
When it comes to killing people, God has quite an imagination.
Here's a summary of the many ways God killed people in the Bible. (Numbers in parentheses are the number of killing events, not the number of people killed. My very rough estimate of the total number of people killed by God is 33 million.)
The edge of the sword: God-assisted genocides and massacres (32)
Okay, it's gets a bit boring reading the same words over and over again.
And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain. Deuteronomy 2:23-24
And thou shalt consume all the people which the LORD thy God shall deliver thee; thine eye shall have no pity upon them. Deuteronomy 7:16
And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword. Joshua 6:21
But if you are going to read the Bible, then you have to get used to it. There are 32 separate God-assisted massacres and genocides that are recorded in the Bible. And God is proud of every one of them. (See The Bible's top 10 massacres for some details.)
Here is a list of the massacres.
God and Moses help Joshua kill the Amalekites (Exodus 17:3)
"The LORD ... delivered up the Canaanites; and they utterly destroyed them and their cities." (Numbers 21:1-3)
Bashanites: " I have delivered him into thy hand, and all his people ... So they smote him, and his sons, and all his people, until there was none left him alive." (Numbers 21:34-35)
Midianites: "And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males ... And Moses was wroth with the officers ... And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. (Numbers 31:1-35)
Anakim: "A people great, and many, and tall, as the Anakims; but the LORD destroyed them." (Deuteronomy 2:21-22)
Heshbonites: "And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain." (Deuteronomy 2:33-34)
Bashanites (again): "So the LORD our God delivered into our hands ... and we smote him until none was left to him remaining.... threescore cities ... And we utterly destroyed them ... utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city. (Deuteronomy 3:3-6)
Jericho: "And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword." (Joshua 6:21)
Ai: "Joshua drew not his hand back, wherewith he stretched out the spear, until he had utterly destroyed all the inhabitants of Ai." (Joshua 8:1-25)
7 cities: "So Joshua ... left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded." (Joshua 10:28-42)
Hazorites: And they smote all the souls that were therein with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying them: there was not any left to breathe: and he burnt Hazor with fire. (Joshua 11:8-12)
Anakim: "Joshua destroyed them utterly with their cities." (Joshua 11:20-21)
Canaanites and Perizzites: "and the LORD delivered the Canaanites and the Perizzites into their hand ... and they slew the Canaanites and the Perizzites." (Judges 1:4)
Moabites: "For the LORD hath delivered your enemies the Moabites into your hand ... And they slew of Moab at that time about ten thousand men, all lusty, and all men of valour; and there escaped not a man." (Judges 3:28-29)
Canaanites: "And the LORD discomfited Sisera, and all his chariots, and all his host, with the edge of the sword ... and there was not a man left." (Judges 4:14)
Ammonites: So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon ... and the LORD delivered them into his hands ... And he smote them ... with a very great slaughter." (Judges 11:32-33)
"And the Spirit of the LORD came upon him, and he ... slew thirty men." (Judges 14:19)
Benjamites: "And the LORD smote Benjamin before Israel: and the children of Israel destroyed of the Benjamites that day twenty and five thousand and an hundred men:" (Judges 20:35-37)
More Benjamites: "And the men of Israel turned again upon the children of Benjamin, and smote them with the edge of the sword, as well the men of every city, as the beast, and all that came to hand: also they set on fire all the cities that they came to." (Judges 20:44-16)
God delivered the Philistines to Jonathan: "the LORD hath delivered them ... And that first slaughter, which Jonathan and his armourbearer made, was about twenty men, within as it were an half acre of land. (1 Samuel 14:12)
God orders Saul to kill every Amalekite man, woman, and child (1 Samuel 15:2-3)
God delivers the Philistines: I will deliver the Philistines into thine hand ... So David ... fought with the Philistines ... and smote them with a great slaughter." (1 Samuel 23:2-5)
God delivers the Philistines to David: "And David enquired of the LORD, saying, Shall I go up to the Philistines? wilt thou deliver them into mine hand? And the LORD said unto David, Go up: for I will doubtless deliver the Philistines into thine hand." (2 Samuel 5:19, 25)
Baasha killed everyone in the house of Jeroboam "according to the saying of the Lord." (1 Kings 15:29)
Zimri killed everyone in the house of Baasha "according to the word of the Lord." (1 Kings 16:11-12)
Religious leaders killed in a prayer contest (1 Kings 18:22-40)
God delivers the Syrians into the Israelites' hands (1 Kings 20:28-29)
Jehu killed "all that remained unto Ahab in Samaria ... according to the saying of the Lord"(2 Kings 10:16-17)
God delivers Israel into the hands of Judah (2 Chronicles 13:15-17)
"The Lord smote the Ethiopians." (2 Chronicles 14:9-14)
Judean soldiers killed for forsaking God (2 Chronicles 28:6)
God delivered the Israelites into the hand of the Chaldeans. (2 Chronicles 36:16-17)
Burning people to death (5)
Most people that I know are opposed to this sort of thing, but it's one of God's favorite ways to kill people. He did it himself (or commanded others to do it for him) 5 times in the Bible.
(See Is it wrong to burn people to death? for more on this.)
Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis 19:24)
Aaron's sons for offering strange fire before the Lord (Leviticus 10:1-3; Numbers 3:3:4, 26:61)
An unknown number for complaining (Numbers 11:1)
For offering incense without a license (Numbers 16:35)
For worshiping the wrong god (2 Kings 1:9-12)
Lions and serpents and bears, Oh my! (5)
Remember how the Romans used to kill Christians by throwing them to the lions? Well, God thought of it first!
A lion is sent by God to kill a prophet for believing another prophet's lie (1 Kings 13:1-24)
God sent lions to kill a man for not killing a prophet (1 Kings 20:35-36)
And he sent lions to kill some foreigners for not fearing him enough (2 Kings 17:25-26)
Sometimes God made special creatures to kill people on special occasions. Like the time he sent fiery serpents (maybe even flying, fiery serpents!) to bite and kill people for complaining about the lack of food and water. (Numbers 21:6)
And then there were the bears. God sent two bears to kill 42 boys for making fun of Elisha's bald head. (2 Kings 2:23-24)
Plagues (5).
What would God be without his plagues? They became his trademark after the ten plagues of Egypt. But he didn't use them as often as you might think. I can only find 5 times that God used plagues to kill people.
God sent "a very great plague" for complaining about the food. (Numbers 11:33)
For murmuring (Numbers 14:35-36)
For complaining (Numbers 16:49)
For "committing whoredom with the daughters of Moab" (Numbers 25:9)
To punish David for his census (2 Samuel 24:15, 1 Chronicles 21:14)
Forcing people to kill each other (3).
I'm not talking about war here. Yes, God often inspired or forced people to kill each other in war (see the 32 massacres above). But that's not what this is about. In this method God forces friends, family, soldiers, and community members to kill each other.
For dancing naked around Aaron's golden calf (Exodus 32:27-28, 35)
Midianites soldiers (Judges 7:22, 8:10)
Philistine soldiers forced to kill each other (1 Samuel 14:20)
Drowning (2)
The big one -- the flood of Noah (Genesis 7:23)
The drowning of the Egyptian army (Exodus 14:27-28)
Hailstones (2)
God chases the Amorites along the way, throwing hailstones at them (Joshua 10:11)
The seventh Egyptian plague -- fiery hailstones killing man and beast (Exodus 9:25)
Stoned to death (2)
For blasphemy (Leviticus 24:10)
For picking up sticks on the Sabbath (Numbers 15:32)
Famine (2)
A three year famine for something Saul did (2 Samuel 21:1:)
A seven year famine for God knows what (2 Kings 8:1)
Eaten by worms
Herod for not giving God enough glory (Acts 12:23)
Buried alive
Korah, Dathan, and Abiram (and their families) for criticizing Moses (Numbers 16:27)
Burned and stoned to death
Achan (and his his sons and daughters) for taking the accursed thing (Joshua 7:10-12, 24-26)
Falling wall
God makes a wall fall on Syrian soldiers killing 27,000 (1 Kings 20:30)
(It was a very big wall. After the wall fell, they built a new one and put up a sign, "Watch out for falling wall". It hasn't happened since.)
Hacked to pieces before the Lord
Samuel hacks Agag to pieces before the Lord (1 Samuel 15:32-33)
Hanged before the Lord
The seven sons of Saul (2 Samuel 21:6-9)
Killed with the jawbone of an ass
Samson kills 1000 Philistines with the jawbone of an ass (Judges 15:14-15)
Killed and hung on a tree
Joshua kills 5 kings hand hangs their dead bodies on trees (Joshua 10:24-26)
Killed by an angel
Sleeping Assyrian soldiers (2 Kings 19:35, Isaiah 37:36)
("When they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses.")
Forced to committed suicide
Saul because he didn't inquire of the Lord (1 Chronicles 10:4-6, 13-14)
A message from God (knife in the belly)
Ehud gets the message (Judges 3:15-22)
Bowels fell out
God kills Jehoram by making his bowels fall out (2 Chronicles 21:14-19)
Thrown off a wall and trampled to death
Jezebel (2 Kings 9:33-37)
("And the carcase of Jezebel shall be as dung upon the face of the field.")
Trampled to death
For not believing Elisha (2 Kings 7:17-20)
God-inspired act of terrorism
Samson's suicide attack (Judges 16:27-30)
Turned into a pillar of salt
Lot's wife for looking back (Genesis 19:26)
Scared to death
Ananias and Sapphira for not giving all their money to Peter (Acts 5:1-10)
Unknown methods: "The Lord smote them." (10)
Er for being "wicked in the sight of the Lord" (Genesis 38:1, 1 Chronicles 2:3)
Onan for spilling his seed (Genesis 38:10)
Every Egyptian firstborn child (Exodus 12:29-30)
For looking into the ark of the Lord (1 Samuel 6:9)
Nabal so that David could marry his wife (1 Samuel 25:38)
Uzzah for trying to keep the ark from falling (2 Samuel 6:6-7, 1 Chronicles 13:9-10)
David and Bathsheba's baby boy(2 Samuel 12:14-18)
Jeroboam (2 Chronicles 13:20)
Ahaziah for talking to the wrong God (2 Kings 1:2-4, 2 Chronicles 22:7-9)
Ezekiel's wife just for the heck of it (Ezekiel 24:15-18)
Here's a handy chart you can put on your wall.
Posted by Steve Wells at 4/08/2009 08:05:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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7 comments:
I Am said...
Some of the ways of killing people are truly demented. I wonder if the "unknown" methods were too gruesome or too boring to be mentioned? Or maybe the authors of the Bible just had writer's block that day.
Tue Jan 06, 08:53:00 AM 2009
Ian G. said...
Look at the Samson story again. In an act of suicidal terrorism in God's name, he makes a large building collapse and kill 3,000 people.
Sound familiar? I guess we should be impressed that Samson managed to do it without hijacking a single airplane!
Tue Jan 06, 09:11:00 PM 2009
Josell said...
I believe in the God of the New Testament. He is so good that he gave his life for us and was resurrected to prove it, yes, he proved to be God, as a scientist proves his hypothesis, but God did it with something else that science applies to our universe.
The Old Testament is a collection of cultural books, which are used to interpret the New Testament, but does not show the true God of love.
Moreover, the God who gives life has the right to remove it. God is always justified itself.
I admit that I am a sinner, but I know that God is love and worship and deserves all glory. Evil is temporary, but good and love are eternal, like God and our soul.
Even non-believers recognize the presence of God when they invest much time writing these posts.
God Bless you; and sorry for my google-translator-english.
Tue Jan 06, 10:43:00 PM 2009
Steve Wells said...
Josell,
You say that you "believe in the God of the New Testament." That's nice.
But isn't the God of the New Testament the same God as the God of the Old Testament? Isn't that why you are forced to defend the evil Old Testament God by saying, "the God who gives life has the right to remove it"? God can kill whoever he wants, whenever he wants, any way that he wants, for any reason -- or no reason at all.
Such a God is evil, Josell. Thank goodness he doesn't exit!
Wed Jan 07, 09:57:00 AM 2009
Miguel said...
God is our creator and as so it has the power to decide on the life of all living being. If you create something and it is defective and evil. What do you do? First it is to try to accommodate it, but if you can’t? ….We are like mud containers into the hands of the potter… Remember that the one that beginning the death was the same man, when Caín kill his brother. Easy it is to judge, but we are only men… simple men
Wed Jan 07, 11:17:00 AM 2009
Steve Wells said...
Miguel,
If you create something and it is defective and evil. What do you do? First it is to try to accommodate it, but if you can’t? …
Kill it, eh Miguel?
If you make something evil, then isn't it your fault in the first place? Shouldn't you at least try to fix it before killing it?
And what was so evil about David and Bathsheba's baby boy? (2 Samuel 12:14-18) Why did God have to kill him?
Wed Jan 07, 11:28:00 AM 2009
buddy said...
I am just glad He rid the earth of all those rebellious hateful people. By the way you better watch your disrespectfull mouth.You may be next.
Mon Jan 02, 07:53:00 AM 2012
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08 April 2009The Passover Plot -- God's Intelligently Designed Mass Murder
(Re-post for Passover)
Today at sunset is the beginning of Passover, a religious festival celebrating the mass murder of every non-Jewish "firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast." And the murderer is God himself.
Of course God had a motive for the murders. The Israelites (his favorite people) were enslaved by the Pharaoh, and God wanted them to be set free. And he tried all sorts of things to get Pharaoh's attention.
First he taught Moses some magic tricks. Like how to throw his rod on the ground and turn it into a snake. Then grab the snake by the tail and make it a rod again.
And the LORD said unto him, What is that in thine hand? And he said, A rod. And he said, Cast it on the ground. And he cast it on the ground, and it became a serpent; and Moses fled from before it. And the LORD said unto Moses, Put forth thine hand, and take it by the tail. And he put forth his hand, and caught it, and it became a rod in his hand. Exodus 4:2-4
Next God showed Moses how to make his hand leprous and then cure it.
And the LORD said furthermore unto him, Put now thine hand into thy bosom. And he put his hand into his bosom: and when he took it out, behold, his hand was leprous as snow. And he said, Put thine hand into thy bosom again. And he put his hand into his bosom again; and plucked it out of his bosom, and, behold, it was turned again as his other flesh. Exodus 4:6-7
And finally, God taught Moses to turn water into blood.
And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe also these two signs, neither hearken unto thy voice, that thou shalt take of the water of the river, and pour it upon the dry land: and the water which thou takest out of the river shall become blood upon the dry land. Exodus 4:9
God knew that none of this would work though, since he planned to harden Pharaoh's heart. (I guess he just wanted Moses to show off his magic tricks in front of Pharaoh anyway.)
And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. Exodus 4:21
So God teaches Moses the magic tricks and then hardens the Pharaoh's heart to ensure that the tricks won't work. How's that for an intelligently designed plan?
But God had another plan up his sleeve: murder.
And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn. Exodus 4:23
In the very next verse, God's plans are interrupted by another divine impulse to kill. God tries to kill Moses!
And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and sought to kill him. Exodus 4:24
The Bible doesn't say why God tried to kill Moses, but it had something to do with foreskins. Here's what the holy book says.
Then Zipporah [Moses' wife] took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me. Exodus 4:25
Makes sense to me. But back to the main murder story.
Moses recruits his brother, Aaron, to be his spokesman (since Moses has "uncircumscribed lips") and Aaron performs the rod to serpent magic trick for the Pharaoh. But darn it all! Pharaoh's magicians know that trick, too. Luckily it ends well, since Aaron's rod/snake swallows theirs.
And Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a serpent. Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments. For they cast down every man his rod, and they became serpents: but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods. Exodus 7:10-12
Even with such a great trick, the Pharaoh was still unconvinced. But then I guess that was because God hardened his heart again.
And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them.Exodus 7:13
So enough with the tricks. It's time for God to get serious. He begins with the famous ten plagues of Egypt. I won't go through all that, since I want to complete this post while it's still passover. But here's a list.
Rivers turned to blood. (Pharaoh's magicians did this one too.) Exodus 7:17-24 BT
Frogs. (The magicians know the frog trick too!) Exodus 8:1-7 BT
Lice. (This is the first trick that the magicians couldn't do. I guess lice are harder to make than frogs.) Exodus 8:16-19 BT
Flies (continuing the frogs and lice theme) Exodus 8:21 BT
All cattle in Egypt die. Exodus 9:3-6 BT
Boils and blains upon man and beast. Exodus 9:9 BT
Hail. Exodus 9:19 BT
Locusts. Exodus 10: 4-15 BT
Three days of darkness. Exodus 10:21-23 BT
God kills all Egyptian firstborn humans and animals. Exodus 12: 29-30 BT
It is, of course, the last plague that is celebrated at passover, with the focus on how God knew who to kill.
Even for God, mass murder is a complicated and messy business. But God learned from his previous mistakes. In Noah's flood and at Sodom and Gomorrah, God didn't worry too much about collateral damage. He just drowned or burned to death everyone (except Noah, Lot, and some family members). This time, though, God wanted to be more selective in his killings.
So how did he decide which children to kill? Well, here's what he came up with.
Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying ... they shall take to them every man a lamb ... without blemish, a male of the first year ... and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening. And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses. ... For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast. ... And when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt. Exodus 12: 3-13
You've got to hand it to God. That is quite a plan.
God himself will come down and kill every firstborn child and animal (How did he know which was firstborn?) except for in houses that had lamb's blood smeared on door posts. But if he sees blood on door posts he will "passover" that house and refrain from murdering any children or pets.
And, if you are foolish and nasty enough to believe in the Bible, that is exactly what God did.
At midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle ... and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead. Exodus 12: 29-30
How could anyone celebrate passover or worship the God of the passover plot?
Posted by Steve Wells at 4/08/2009 05:16:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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76 comments:
KickSave23 said...
So wait. God knew which people and animals were firstborn, but wasn't omniscient enough to tell which ones were Jewish as opposed to Egyptian?
I'm not an expert, nor omniscient myself, but it seems like the easier task would be discerning the Egyptians from the Jews, as opposed to trying to determine birth order.
Sat Apr 19, 01:23:00 PM 2008
Jason said...
"How could anyone celebrate passover or worship the God of the passover plot?"
People have and still do. What exactly are you arguing other then presenting your own biases?
Sat Apr 19, 01:59:00 PM 2008
KickSave23 said...
The way I read it, he seems to be arguing against celebrating the killing of people strictly based on their ethnicity.
And also the omniscience of a deity who can't identify the ethnicity of people without the aid of sheep blood.
Sat Apr 19, 02:41:00 PM 2008
Jason said...
God didn't kill the Egyptian firstborn simply because they were 'Egyptian'. Any Israelite who didn't paint their doorposts with blood would have suffered exactly the same fate.
And the blood was a test of faith, similar to many, many other examples in Scripture where God requires specific acts to be carried out by people as a test of their faith.
Sat Apr 19, 04:42:00 PM 2008
KickSave23 said...
So then why did God seem to think that killing the Egyptians was a kind, just and loving idea?
And what alternate reading of "...when I smite the land of Egypt." can you offer us?
Sat Apr 19, 05:02:00 PM 2008
Jason said...
So then why did God seem to think that killing the Egyptians was a kind, just and loving idea?
I'm not sure how you're coming to this conclusion.
And what alternate reading of "...when I smite the land of Egypt." can you offer us?
The Israelites were in the land of Egypt. If they hadn't done what God commanded them to do, they would have died as well.
Sat Apr 19, 05:09:00 PM 2008
v_quixotic said...
Reading this and other posts in the blog, and some of the exegesis in the SAB, I wonder how it is that the idea that God is a god of love got started...
If I believed in God, it would be fear, literal fear of arbitrary and disproportionate punishment, that would alone sustain my faith.
Thank Christ there's no good reason to believe in such a monstrous deity!
Sat Apr 19, 07:29:00 PM 2008
sconnor said...
If god could use his mighty hand to part the red sea, why didn't he just keep Pharaoh and the Egyptians at bay, while the Israelites got out of dodge? A lot of innocent lives didn't have to suffer and die. This god is an asshole.
--S.
Sat Apr 19, 11:43:00 PM 2008
Anon said...
Thank you Steve for taking the time to spell all this out. I knew bits and pieces of the story and thought Passover was a pretty barbaric notion, but never realized just how horrible the whole thing was until your summary.
Jason, you said: "The Israelites were in the land of Egypt. If they hadn't done what God commanded them to do, they would have died as well."
Wouldn't a better solution have been not to kill any firstborn, Egyptian or Israelite? Certainly you do not believe that every single firstborn Egyptian male deserved to die. This would seem a bit racist on your or God's part to assume that all Egyptian 1st born males were alike and deserve to die. If God can harden hearts, can he not "soften" them as well? Certainly at least one or two of them could have been convinced to start worshipping Yahweh.
Alternately, since it was the Pharaoh who was behind the enslaving of the Israelites, God could have simply killed Pharaoh (and maybe a few key supporters) and freed the Israelites (and the Egyptians) from Pharaoh's wretched rule. This would have resulted in thousands upon thousands of fewer deaths than killing all Egyptian male firstborn and any Israelites who neglected to put sheep blood on their door.
Does God just really has a thing for lamb's blood? Maybe he decided if he really had to visit all the houses in Egypt, he at least wanted to see some lamb's blood. Maybe it's kind of like Santa's thing for milk and cookies when he comes through town on Christmas. Although I haven't heard of the mass murder of all the firstborn males who didn't leave out milk and cookies for Santa, even if they had been "naughty" all year or didn't truly believe he existed.
I apologize if you or anyone else doesn't enjoy the comparison to Santa, but it's the nicest one I can think of. I find the Passover story in extremely poor taste and am horrified that I was taught this as a kid and apparently thought it was okay. I shudder to think millions of other kids are learning this story and being told it's okay or even righteous for God to kill all those people.
Of all the things to defend God and the Bible on, I don't see how anyone who actually stops and thinks about it could seriously think what God supposedly did for Passover was okay.
Sun Apr 20, 10:45:00 AM 2008
Anon said...
PS Of course, instead of murdering Pharaoh and his supporters, God could have just fended them off for a while like Sconner suggested, or put them into a deep sleep for 24 hours, or any number of things not involving death.
I only mentioned things that would involve less killing. It should go without saying that a solution not involving murder is infinitely preferable to one that does involve murder, but given the context I decided I should come out and say it instead of just assuming this was a given.
Sun Apr 20, 11:08:00 AM 2008
Jason said...
Anon,
You're asking hypothetical questions which have no answers. If you think you know better then God, so be it.
Sun Apr 20, 11:24:00 AM 2008
sconnor said...
"If you think you know better then God, so be it."
As Jason said, thinking he knows what god wants, and thinks.
"You're asking hypothetical questions which have no answers."
Ah, but they do point to answers. It points out all the glaring absurdities of the passover and sheds light on a diety that possessing human flaws and characteristics which demonstrates this is an obvious piece of fiction and the Bible god is a painful human construct.
These hypotheticals, spark questions and doubt; something Jason can not answer so he must brush them under the rug and pretend they have no meaning in this arena of ideas.
--S.
Sun Apr 20, 04:27:00 PM 2008
Jason said...
As Jason said, thinking he knows what god wants, and thinks.
If you think you would have done things differently, so be it. But this isn't a valid argument for or against anything.
"You're asking hypothetical questions which have no answers."
Ah, but they do point to answers. It points out all the glaring absurdities of the passover and sheds light on a diety that possessing human flaws and characteristics which demonstrates this is an obvious piece of fiction and the Bible god is a painful human construct.
Absurdity is strictly relative though. It's not grounds to disprove, or prove, anything.
These hypotheticals, spark questions and doubt; something Jason can not answer so he must brush them under the rug and pretend they have no meaning in this arena of ideas.
I didn't say they don't have meaning. I just fail to see the relevance or what you're ultimately trying to achieve by posing these sorts of questions.
Sun Apr 20, 05:52:00 PM 2008
Anon said...
Jason: "You're asking hypothetical questions which have no answers. If you think you know better then God, so be it[...]I didn't say they don't have meaning. I just fail to see the relevance or what you're ultimately trying to achieve by posing these sorts of questions."
The relevance is trying to break free from the idea that there is a God who thinks killing all the firstborn males of a nation or race is a good idea. I used to believe in the Bible. I remember learning this story as a kid. I don't remember finding it strange that God was killing all these people. That's what's scary, in my opinion. If you're told as a kid (or even as an adult) that God did it, then most people don't question it: it must be okay. Is it no wonder that so many have been killed, and continue to be killed, in the name of religion if we're told that God not only thinks it's okay to commit murder, but does so himself?
Now that I look back on the Passover story, after a long and difficult journey of questioning and re-evaluating my beliefs, I see it is a ghastly story. It took me a long time to be able to step back and realize stories like this shouldn't be accepted at face value. You are of course completely free to believe as you'd like, and I appreciate the fact that you seem to believe the same thing for me. But in my opinion, questioning Bible stories like this is essential to moving past killing and hatred and moving towards the peace and love that many Christians are actually seeking in (or in spite of) the Bible.
Sun Apr 20, 06:12:00 PM 2008
Jason said...
The relevance is trying to break free from the idea that there is a God who thinks killing all the firstborn males of a nation or race is a good idea.
It's a part of Jewish history. There's nothing to break free from.
Is it no wonder that so many have been killed, and continue to be killed, in the name of religion if we're told that God not only thinks it's okay to commit murder, but does so himself?
It is a wonder considering there's nothing in Scripture that states God says it's okay for people to commit murder.
But in my opinion, questioning Bible stories like this is essential to moving past killing and hatred and moving towards the peace and love that many Christians are actually seeking in (or in spite of) the Bible.
Questioning Bible stories doesn't make them go away. History is filled with violence, and the history of the Jews is no different.
Sun Apr 20, 07:04:00 PM 2008
sconnor said...
Jason said,
"It is a wonder considering there's nothing in Scripture that states God says it's okay for people to commit murder."
You keep forgetting this Jason, Genesis 9:5-6 "I created humans to be like me, and I will punish any animal or person that takes a human life. If an animal kills someone, that animal must die. And if a person takes the life of another, that person must be put to death."
So it's OK for people to kill murders in the eyes of god.
I'm so confused, the ten commandments say do not kill but if you do kill you have to kill that person. But the ten commandments say do not kill. Hmmmmmmmmmm? What should we do god? kill or don't kill? This Deity isn't very clear is he?
But what God makes perfectly clear is, he thinks it's OK to commit murder by allowing unacceptable, first born sons to be sacrificed, to him, so he can horrify the people. Ezekiel 20:26
Nothing says love, like horrifying the people.
Jason said, "I didn't say they don't have meaning. I just fail to see the relevance or what you're ultimately trying to achieve by posing these sorts of questions."
Your beliefs have absolutely, NO credibility and are based on nothing more than what was written by several differing men, who were trying to understand what god meant to them, in their own specific time frame, and own specific culture, from an array of varying perspectives, over thousands and thousands of years. Men said and wrote, under the guise of god's supposed voice, to lend credibility, where there was none. Today, Jason, you do the same thing; you use the Bible, with the supposed authority of god, to push varying agendas -- some polluted, or perverted or some seriously dangerous, with absolutely no credibility, except for the deluded viability in your own mind, based, not in reason, but in the lack of reason, what you call faith. You've got nothing.
Man, once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the spot of every wind. With such persons, gullibility, which they call faith, takes the helm from the hand of reason and the mind becomes a wreck.
-- Thomas Jefferson
Sun Apr 20, 09:24:00 PM 2008
Anon said...
Jason said "It's a part of Jewish history. There's nothing to break free from."
For me, there was definitely something to break free from. I felt I had to serve the God from this book, and that everything the book said was true. I needed to realize I didn't have to live my life based on this book and that I didn't have to live in fear of burning in hell for all eternity if I did something its god didn't like. "We justly deserve your present and eternal punishment" I was taught to recite and believe.
Stating that the Bible is just Jewish history is oversimplifying. It is presented by many to many as the one true word of God that is the only key to avoiding everlasting torture.
Jason said: "It is a wonder considering there's nothing in Scripture that states God says it's okay for people to commit murder."
It depends on how you define murder, I suppose. I meant it in the "vulgar" sense of killing brutally or senselessly. If you definite murder as "unlawful" killing and we go by Biblical law, then I guess a Christian wouldn't call them murders since God presumably can't break the law. So I'll concede this point as a difference in perspective.
But there are numerous times God tells people to kill that would be clearly considered murders under any definition in modern times in the US and much of the world. People are commanded to kill gays, fortune tellers, witches, people who worship other gods, people who work on the Sabbath, kids who curse their parents, and so on. I can look up the verses if you'd like, but there are plenty of cases where God calls on people to kill (your word) or murder (my word).
Jason said "History is filled with violence, and the history of the Jews is no different."
So why put all this violence in a holy book? If you truly think that it's just history and that it's just because people back then were violent, why does the "living Bible" still contain it? Why doesn't the Pope or someone come out and say this book (or at least its Old Testament) is not divinely inspired, but just the history of a group of people who, like many peoples around the world, went around killing everyone they came across to gain land, power, and wealth. They either truly thought God wanted them to do this, or they used him as an excuse to do all their killing. But in any case, as people living in the modern, civilized world, we don't think that every firstborn male of a country should be killed because they don't have lamb's blood on their door.
Mon Apr 21, 12:27:00 AM 2008
Jason said...
Sconnor said: So it's OK for people to kill murders in the eyes of god.
You originally said God says it’s okay for people to commit murder. Now you’re saying God says it’s okay for people to kill murderers. As the two are quite different, which is it?
I'm so confused, the ten commandments say do not kill but if you do kill you have to kill that person. But the ten commandments say do not kill. Hmmmmmmmmmm? What should we do god? kill or don't kill? This Deity isn't very clear is he?
What’s not clear?
But what God makes perfectly clear is, he thinks it's OK to commit murder by allowing unacceptable, first born sons to be sacrificed, to him, so he can horrify the people. Ezekiel 20:26
What does the reference in Ezekiel have to do with the events in Egypt?
Your beliefs have absolutely, NO credibility and are based on nothing more than what was written by several differing men, who were trying to understand what god meant to them, in their own specific time frame, and own specific culture, from an array of varying perspectives, over thousands and thousands of years.
Conjecture.
Men said and wrote, under the guise of god's supposed voice, to lend credibility, where there was none. Today, Jason, you do the same thing; you use the Bible, with the supposed authority of god, to push varying agendas...
Which agendas am I pushing?
Mon Apr 21, 06:07:00 AM 2008
Jason said...
Anon said: For me, there was definitely something to break free from. I felt I had to serve the God from this book, and that everything the book said was true. I needed to realize I didn't have to live my life based on this book and that I didn't have to live in fear of burning in hell for all eternity if I did something its god didn't like.
It’s sad but true - much of mainstream Christianity really pushes the burning in hell bit and as a result, people feel scared into believing. However, Scripture is also quite clear the punishment for the wicked is eternal death, not eternal suffering. Burning in hell is a construct of man, not God.
Stating that the Bible is just Jewish history is oversimplifying.
The Old Testament is the history of the Jews.
It is presented by many to many as the one true word of God that is the only key to avoiding everlasting torture.
Except everlasting torture isn’t a Bible-based doctrine.
But there are numerous times God tells people to kill that would be clearly considered murders under any definition in modern times in the US and much of the world.
I can’t see how this is a valid argument for, or against, the directives of an omnipotent being.
People are commanded to kill gays, fortune tellers, witches, people who worship other gods, people who work on the Sabbath, kids who curse their parents, and so on.
Correct - the OT Israelites were commanded to kill anyone who broke God’s law.
I can look up the verses if you'd like, but there are plenty of cases where God calls on people to kill (your word) or murder (my word).
Agreed.
So why put all this violence in a holy book?
To describe and outline the history of God’s chosen people.
If you truly think that it's just history and that it's just because people back then were violent, why does the "living Bible" still contain it?
I’m not sure what you’re arguing here.
Why doesn't the Pope or someone come out and say this book (or at least its Old Testament) is not divinely inspired, but just the history of a group of people who, like many peoples around the world, went around killing everyone they came across to gain land, power, and wealth.
Because there’s no reason for a Christian to start claiming the OT is not divinely inspired. We leave that kind of thing up to atheists ☺
They either truly thought God wanted them to do this, or they used him as an excuse to do all their killing. But in any case, as people living in the modern, civilized world, we don't think that every firstborn male of a country should be killed because they don't have lamb's blood on their door.
We would think so if God told us to do it again. The problem is you’re pitting the intellect of this world against the intellect of God – I can’t help but side with the latter.
Mon Apr 21, 06:40:00 AM 2008
sconnor said...
Jason said,
You originally said God says it’s okay for people to commit murder. Now you’re saying God says it’s okay for people to kill murderers. As the two are quite different, which is it?
They are the same. killing is killing. There is no provision in the ten commandments that states thou shalt not kill -- except if you are killing a killer.
In regards to the ten commandments and the rather definitive commandment thou shalt not kill,
Jason ask, What’s not clear?
It's abundantly clear that in the ten commandments, god tells us not to kill, but in Genesis 9:5-6 god tells us to kill -- kill the killer.
Then in 1Sam 15:3-4, God -- the one who gave the commandment, thou shalt not kill -- also says, I am the Lord all powerful, and now I am going to make Amalek pay! Go and attack the Amalekites! Destroy them and their possessions. Don't have any pity. Kill their men, women, children and even their babies.
Not clear. should we kill or should we not kill? Can't god make up his mind? Oh, and BTW, god, says, thou shalt not kill, but that is exactly what he does throughout the Bible.
God, the mother of all hypocrites. Don't kill, kill, don't kill, kill, don't kill, kill, kill, kill. Make up your mind you schizophrenic, Deity!
Jason asks, What does the reference in Ezekiel have to do with the events in Egypt?
Just showing that god thinks it is perfectly acceptable (it's OK) to to commit murder by allowing unacceptable, first born sons to be sacrificed, to him, so he can horrify the people. If god didn't think it was OK, then he would have put a stop to it, but he thinks it is perfectly acceptable, so he let's people commit murder. Just like god finds it perfectly OK, to kill off the innocent first born of Egypt and any first born who didn't get the message to put a protective coating of blood around their door, so he could horrify Pharaoh into submission. What a demented and confused Deity.
I said, Your beliefs have absolutely, NO credibility and are based on nothing more than what was written by several differing men, who were trying to understand what god meant to them, in their own specific time frame, and own specific culture, from an array of varying perspectives, over thousands and thousands of years. Men said and wrote, under the guise of god's supposed voice, to lend credibility, where there was none. Today, Jason, you do the same thing; you use the Bible, with the supposed authority of god, to push varying agendas -- some polluted, or perverted or some seriously dangerous, with absolutely no credibility, except for the deluded viability in your own mind, based, not in reason, but in the lack of reason, what you call faith. You've got nothing.
Jason cleverly answered, "Conjecture."
Yeah, go with that, Jason. Keep the light out by plastering the pages of the Bible on all your windows and hide under your flimsy bunker of bibles. Unless, of course, by saying "conjecture", you are in agreement with me, that all your beliefs are based on nothing but inconclusive, unverifiable, incomplete, information that can be interpreted in a myriad of ways -- complete and utter conjecture, being held up by delusion and the tissue thin veil of faith.
Jason asks, Which agendas am I pushing?
You should know; you're the one with a website, pushing it.
--S.
Mon Apr 21, 07:27:00 AM 2008
Dave said...
Jason said that all the violence in the bible is “To describe and outline the history of God’s chosen people.” Stop and think a moment about the phrase “God’s chosen people”. It’s the epitome of oxymoron. The idea that a perfect loving god would create all people in his image, and then chose any one over the other is immoral, racist, and repugnant to any decent human being.
Folks, Jason is a Christadelphian that has lost touch with his own humanity, and the bible is his justification and motivation. Concepts that nauseate most of us cause him no concern, as he worships an intolerant vengeful god that savors the aroma of burning flesh and kills his own creation with ease, including the slaughter of innocent children. Most Christians can claim ignorance, as I did, and as many have testified here and in other blogs, were not aware of the atrocities committed by the very god they worship. It is websites such as Steve’s that are shedding light on a truly horrific biblical god, and the numbers of its worshippers is steadily declining.
Many Christians, however, such as Jason, will never see these illuminations as anything but an attack on their “perfect” belief. The result is that they will dig their heels in even deeper, and their faith will become stronger. I have seen this effect directly in my own family, and siblings that were once functional human beings have become Christian zealots that are a source of bewilderment and amusement to those outside their narrow world view.
Ranting aside, I did want to make one point, undoubtedly to no avail, to Jason. Typical of Christians, you incorrectly equate non-Christians to atheists, as revealed by this statement: ”Because there’s no reason for a Christian to start claiming the OT is not divinely inspired. We leave that kind of thing up to atheists.” No, Jason, we also leave that up to people that love God but disavow the hideous tyrant that claims to be God in the bible.
Mon Apr 21, 09:26:00 AM 2008
Jason said...
Sconnor said: They are the same. killing is killing. There is no provision in the ten commandments that states thou shalt not kill -- except if you are killing a killer.
Biblically speaking, they’re not the same at all since killing murderers and murdering people are treated differently under the old law.
It's abundantly clear that in the ten commandments, god tells us not to kill, but in Genesis 9:5-6 god tells us to kill -- kill the killer.
Correct. This is picked up again in the law of Moses: Num 35:31 “Moreover ye shall take no satisfaction for the life of a murderer, which is guilty of death…”
Then in 1Sam 15:3-4, God -- the one who gave the commandment, thou shalt not kill -- also says, I am the Lord all powerful, and now I am going to make Amalek pay! Go and attack the Amalekites! Destroy them and their possessions. Don't have any pity. Kill their men, women, children and even their babies. Not clear. should we kill or should we not kill?
Depends on whether or not you’re an Old Testament Israelite. Are you?
Just showing that god thinks it is perfectly acceptable (it's OK) to to commit murder by allowing unacceptable, first born sons to be sacrificed, to him, so he can horrify the people.
Completely incorrect. The verse you’re referring to doesn’t say anything about firstborn sons being offered to him. Compare with Eze 16:20-21, Lev 18:21, 2Ki 17:17, 2Ki 21:6, 2Ch 28:3, 2Ch 33:6 and Jer 32:35. Offering children as sacrifices was completely unacceptable in the sight of God and the only times these actions occurred was when the Israelites were worshipping idols.
If god didn't think it was OK, then he would have put a stop to it, but he thinks it is perfectly acceptable, so he let's people commit murder.
Argument from ignorance.
Just like god finds it perfectly OK, to kill off the innocent first born of Egypt and any first born who didn't get the message to put a protective coating of blood around their door, so he could horrify Pharaoh into submission. What a demented and confused Deity.
More conjecture.
Yeah, go with that, Jason. Keep the light out by plastering the pages of the Bible on all your windows and hide under your flimsy bunker of bibles. Unless, of course, by saying "conjecture", you are in agreement with me, that all your beliefs are based on nothing but inconclusive, unverifiable, incomplete, information that can be interpreted in a myriad of ways -- complete and utter conjecture, being held up by delusion and the tissue thin veil of faith.
If you’ve got something intelligent to add to the topic, I’d be more then happy to address it. Emotive language and red herrings aren't reasonable grounds to reject the Bible or God.
You should know; you're the one with a website, pushing it.
Where have I “pushed” a website?
Mon Apr 21, 10:47:00 AM 2008
Jason said...
Dave, if you’re going to attack my character, please do so elsewhere. Your comment is unnecessary and in poor taste.
Mon Apr 21, 10:54:00 AM 2008
Dave said...
Jason, I confess. I am irritable due to back pain… hopefully an epidural shot this Thursday will return me to my formal jovial self. In the meantime, I apologize for the tone of my post. I am not quite sure what I said that was a personal attack on your character, but I will take your word on it. I do not believe that a person is defined by their religious beliefs, so please don’t take attacks on your religion as an attack on you. Hey, I am the same person I was 6 years ago, but I no longer worship the biblical god. Anyway, care to comment on my post-rant last paragraph?
Mon Apr 21, 12:05:00 PM 2008
Jason said...
Dave,
Sorry but I don't know what exactly you want me to address in your last paragraph. If atheists are leaving it up to God-loving people to disavow the Biblical God, that's fine.
Mon Apr 21, 12:53:00 PM 2008
Anon said...
Jason: It’s sad but true - much of mainstream Christianity really pushes the burning in hell bit and as a result, people feel scared into believing. However, Scripture is also quite clear the punishment for the wicked is eternal death, not eternal suffering. Burning in hell is a construct of man, not God.
What about the story of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16:20? Jesus says of the rich man, "in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off [...]
"Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. [...]
"I pray thee [...], father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment."
This sounds like hell being described as a flaming place of torment. You will maybe say it's just a parable Jesus was telling; but in either case it's not a construct of man, it's a construct of Jesus.
Jason: The problem is you’re pitting the intellect of this world against the intellect of God – I can’t help but side with the latter.
On what basis do you side with the latter? What in the Bible shows you that God's intellect is better than man's?
One example against God's supposed superior intellect: The Biblical God doesn't say one word against slavery (he condones it in a number of passages), but most humans nowadays understand that this is a horrid, primitive practice. If God's intellect were superior, wouldn't he have realized this long before we did?
Mon Apr 21, 07:27:00 PM 2008
sconnor said...
Jason,
Then in 1Sam 15:3-4, God -- the one who gave the commandment, thou shalt not kill -- also says, I am the Lord all powerful, and now I am going to make Amalek pay! Go and attack the Amalekites! Destroy them and their possessions. Don't have any pity. Kill their men, women, children and even their babies. Not clear. should we kill or should we not kill?
Jason said, Depends on whether or not you’re an Old Testament Israelite. Are you?
What does that have to do with it? In the OT, god gives the commandment, thou shalt not kill but then, still, in the OT, he tells people to kill. Should we kill or shouldn't we? God can't make up his schizophrenic mind. The Bible is confusing and can't make up it's mind if killing is forbidden or not. Again, Jason you've got nothing, except a deluded mind.
Just showing that god thinks it is perfectly acceptable (it's OK) to to commit murder by allowing unacceptable, first born sons to be sacrificed, to him, so he can horrify the people.
Jason said, Completely incorrect. The verse you’re referring to doesn’t say anything about firstborn sons being offered to him.
No you are completely incorrect, maybe you Bible doesn't say it, but these Bibles do: Ezekiel 20;26
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ez%2020:26;&version=31;
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ez%2020:26;&version=49;
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ez%2020:26;&version=46;
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ez%2020:26;&version=50;
God must not have breathed inspiration in those Bibles huh, Jason?
Once again you've got nothing.
If god didn't think it was OK, then he would have put a stop to it, but he thinks it is perfectly acceptable, so he let's people commit murder.
Jason, arguing from ignorance said, Argument from ignorance.
In your case, definitely.
Just like god finds it perfectly OK, to kill off the innocent first born of Egypt and any first born who didn't get the message to put a protective coating of blood around their door, so he could horrify Pharaoh into submission. What a demented and confused Deity.
Jason said, More conjecture.
If god did not think it was OK, then how could he have done it. He had to think it was permissible, otherwise he would have thought it wrong and he wouldn't have done it. Did god do it because he thought it wasn't OK?
Yeah, go with that, Jason. Keep the light out by plastering the pages of the Bible on all your windows and hide under your flimsy bunker of bibles. Unless, of course, by saying "conjecture", you are in agreement with me, that all your beliefs are based on nothing but inconclusive, unverifiable, incomplete, information that can be interpreted in a myriad of ways -- complete and utter conjecture, being held up by delusion and the tissue thin veil of faith.
Jason said,If you’ve got something intelligent to add to the topic, I’d be more then happy to address it. Emotive language and red herrings aren't reasonable grounds to reject the Bible or God.
It was a wholly intelligent observation that your beliefs have absolutely, NO credibility and are based on nothing more than what was written by several differing men, who were trying to understand what god meant to them, in their own specific time frame, and own specific culture, from an array of varying perspectives, over thousands and thousands of years. Men said and wrote, under the guise of god's supposed voice, to lend credibility, where there was none. Today, Jason, you do the same thing; you use the Bible, with the supposed authority of god, to push varying agendas -- some polluted, or perverted or some seriously dangerous, with absolutely no credibility, except for the deluded viability in your own mind, based, not in reason, but in the lack of reason, what you call faith. You've got nothing.
All you could come up with was "conjecture", I don't see any intelligence in that answer. All you have is faith, that the Bible is the word of god. Faith and reason are mutually exclusive. You either believe in something because of evidence (reason) or you believe in it because of a lack of evidence (faith). If you can add anything of intelligence and reason to why you believe the Bible is authoritative, then do so -- "conjecture", is a lame and pathetic response.
And because you like statements that have intelligence in them, I'll leave this quote for you again, because I'm sure it was difficult for you to digest.
"Man, once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the spot of every wind. With such persons, gullibility, which they call faith, takes the helm from the hand of reason and the mind becomes a wreck."
-- Thomas Jefferson
Jason asks sheepishly, Where have I “pushed” a website?
Does christadelphians ring a bell? You know the one in your profile.
--S.
Mon Apr 21, 11:58:00 PM 2008
Jason said...
Anon said: What about the story of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16:20?
Like you said, and I agree, it’s a parable. And it is a construct of Jesus, certainly, but it’s still symbolism, no different then the rest of his parables.
On what basis do you side with the latter? What in the Bible shows you that God's intellect is better than man's?
The fact He created the universe. ☺
One example against God's supposed superior intellect: The Biblical God doesn't say one word against slavery (he condones it in a number of passages), but most humans nowadays understand that this is a horrid, primitive practice. If God's intellect were superior, wouldn't he have realized this long before we did?
Good question, although one that I can’t do justice to considering it’s a bit off topic. Briefly though, if you look at the law of Moses regarding slavery, you’ll find that it was designed in such a way that if you wanted to keep your slave/servant, you needed to make sure your slave/servant wanted to stay. A well-treated slave/servant (which the Bible advocates) would have had a very good life.
Food for thought.
Tue Apr 22, 07:26:00 AM 2008
Jason said...
Sconnor: What does that have to do with it?
The OT law was given to the Israelites. So I’ll ask again: are you an OT Israelite? Please answer.
No you are completely incorrect, maybe you Bible doesn't say it, but these Bibles do
Let’s take a look at the links you provided:
• New International Version (NIV): “I let them become defiled through their gifts—the sacrifice of every firstborn —that I might fill them with horror so they would know that I am the LORD.’
• New American Standard Bible (NASB): “and I pronounced them unclean because of their gifts, in that they caused all their firstborn to pass through the fire so that I might make them desolate, in order that they might know that I am the LORD."'
Contemporary English Version (CEV): “and I let them offer me unacceptable sacrifices, including their first-born sons. I did this to horrify them and to let them know that I, the LORD, was punishing them.”
New King James Version (NKJV): “and I pronounced them unclean because of their ritual gifts, in that they caused all their firstborn to pass through the fire, that I might make them desolate and that they might know that I am the LORD.”’
How many of these translations mention that God says it's perfectly acceptable for first born sons to be sacrificed to Him?
Tue Apr 22, 08:45:00 AM 2008
Dave said...
Jason said “Briefly though, if you look at the law of Moses regarding slavery, you’ll find that it was designed in such a way that if you wanted to keep your slave/servant, you needed to make sure your slave/servant wanted to stay. A well-treated slave/servant (which the Bible advocates) would have had a very good life.”
Seriously Jason, look at yourself in a mirror and repeat out loud what you wrote. See what your religion has done to you? As a child, did you ever imagine that you would grow up to worship a child-killing tyrant and be defending slavery?
Tue Apr 22, 10:06:00 AM 2008
Jason said...
Dave,
Understand that slavery as it existed under the Mosaic law has no modern parallel. The word "slave" isn't even found in the original text. Instead it's translated 'servant', a word that has much gentler connotations.
Biblically speaking, not historically speaking, laws were put in place to ensure servants had rights and were looked after. Consider that the law of Moses restricted anyone from returning a runaway servant - this servant was free to settle wherever he pleased. Anyone who stole someone for the purpose of servitude was to be put to death. Masters were warned not to oppress their servants. Relatives could buy a servant's freedom. And so on.
The circumstances under which a Hebrew might be reduced to servitude were poverty, the commission of theft, and the exercise of paternal authority. I don't see anything inherently evil in these.
The servitude of an Israelite could also be terminated in six ways: By the satisfaction or the remission of all claims against him, by the recurrence of the year of jubilee, by the expiration of six years from the time that his servitude commenced, by injury, by indifference by the master, or by direct commandment from God. How many of these rules existed, or were enforced, during the slaves trades of the 18th and 19th centuries?
I sincerely believe you'd be hard pressed to prove that the lives of these servants, under the old law, resembled, in any way, the lives of the slaves we read about in our history books.
Tue Apr 22, 11:05:00 AM 2008
Anon said...
Jason said: Like you said, and I agree, it’s [the story of Lazarus and the rich man is] a parable. And it is a construct of Jesus, certainly, but it’s still symbolism, no different then the rest of his parables
You said hell was a construct of man, and now you agree it's a construct of Jesus. So you were either mistaken earlier, or you are admitting that Jesus was (just) a man and not the son of God. Either way, Jesus either invented or propagated the idea of burning and suffering in Hell.
Jason: if you look at the law of Moses regarding slavery, you’ll find that it was designed in such a way that if you wanted to keep your slave/servant, you needed to make sure your slave/servant wanted to stay. A well-treated slave/servant (which the Bible advocates) would have had a very good life.
I think Dave's reply applies here. Do you realize what you are saying? You are looking at it from the master's perspective. Would you like to be owned by someone and submit to their bidding?
You're looking at things from a master's perspective: if I treat my servant well, then he's better off with me than being on his own. But do you think most people really would choose to be a slave over not being one?
If you didn't have relatives who could buy you from your master, or if your master didn't publicly treat you poorly enough that others would agree that you deserved to be set free, then you were stuck serving your master.
By the way, it apparently didn't matter how good or evil your master was, you were still expected to fear and serve.
"Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward." (1 Peter 2:18) The word "froward" is translated in other version of the Bible as "cruel", "harsh", "unreasonable", etc. So you were to obey, no matter whether or not your master was good or not.
I guess I can understand someone thinking this is okay since the Bible teaches we are to obey God, whether he's good or not (and he can do some pretty horrid things sometimes according to our modern sensibilities).
Tue Apr 22, 07:09:00 PM 2008
sconnor said...
Jason,
Sconnor: What does that have to do with it?
Jason said,The OT law was given to the Israelites. So I’ll ask again: are you an OT Israelite? Please answer.
When faced with a real argument you resort to an illogical one and answer with a rhetorical. This has nothing to do with nationalities and everything to do with a schizophrenic god who can't make up his mind -- thou shalt not kill or thou shalt kill. Ten commandments or kill the
Amalekite, men, women, children and babies. Thou shalt not kill! Thou shalt kill! But god you said don't kill, now you are telling us to kill? Can't you make up your mind?
You've got nothing.
Jason, changing back to the original argument, says, In reference to Ezekiel 20:26 How many of these translations mention that God says it's perfectly acceptable for first born sons to be sacrificed to Him?
Ohhhh, first it was, they don't say first born, now it's back to the original argument. Let the tap dancing begin. I show you it says first born, so you have to diverge -- what? it does say first born? hey, look over there, ummmm now show me God says it's perfectly acceptable.
Gladly, Ezekiel 20:26 says, and I let them offer me unacceptable sacrifices, including their first-born sons. I did this to horrify them and to let them know that I, the LORD, was punishing them.
Your argument is not won because god does not orate his acceptance. It's written right there in B&W. By god LETTING them offer their first born, as a sacrifice, he demonstrates that it is acceptable. If god did not want to punish them or horrify them, then he would have deemed it unacceptable and he would NOT LET them sacrifice their first born. It is by god's complacency and inaction, to tell them NOT to sacrifice their first born, thereby LETTING them sacrifice the first born, that wholly demonstrates he finds it completely acceptable.
If someone was sacrificing your child and you thought it was completely unacceptable (which any reasonable father would) would you let them continue with the sacrifice or would you do everything in your power to STOP, what you rightly deemed unacceptable and heinous?
Of course you would try and stop it and at the very least you would yell on the top of your lungs to stop it -- because it is wrong and unacceptable. Even though god has complete power to stop something so UNACCEPTABLE, He IS ACCEPTING of it, because he PERMITS it to HAPPEN. And he does so with a grim MOTIVE -- to horrify the people.
God thinks it is perfectly acceptable to accept the sacrifice of the first born children.
You've got nothing.
--S.
Tue Apr 22, 08:45:00 PM 2008
Jason said...
Anon: You said hell was a construct of man, and now you agree it's a construct of Jesus... Either way, Jesus either invented or propagated the idea of burning and suffering in Hell.
I said suffering in hell for all eternity was a construct of man. Remember, this parable was given to the scribes and Pharisees. Being Jews, they had no concept of hell as a place of fire and torment. Instead hell in Judaism was compared to an intense feeling of shame. People were ashamed of their misdeeds and this constituted suffering.
The difficulty is, if Jesus did, in fact, invent or propagate the idea of burning and suffering in hell, he must have also invented or propagated the idea of Abraham’s Bosom as the place of reward. However, this doesn't follow with any of his teachings on the reward to be given to the righteous. And again, if your theory holds true, Jesus was also advancing the notion that rich people would be cast in hell (whether or not they sinned) and homeless people would go to Abraham's Bosom (whether or not they sinned). Neither of these concepts follow his teachings on judgment.
I think Dave's reply applies here. Do you realize what you are saying? You are looking at it from the master's perspective. Would you like to be owned by someone and submit to their bidding?
People submit to their master’s bidding every day, whether it’s in the workplace or getting pulled over by a cop. As for being ‘owned’ by someone, what’s inherently wrong with this? As long as I have rights that protect me from being oppressed, of which I’ve outlined already, the system works.
You're looking at things from a master's perspective: if I treat my servant well, then he's better off with me than being on his own. But do you think most people really would choose to be a slave over not being one?
Absolutely. Anyone who enters the workforce today becomes a ‘servant’ to their ‘master’ - we do this voluntarily. We have rights, we get paid, we're not bound to serve their ‘master’ for the rest of their lives, and if the going gets tough, we can quit. Servants in the OT had the same benefits.
If you didn't have relatives who could buy you from your master, or if your master didn't publicly treat you poorly enough that others would agree that you deserved to be set free, then you were stuck serving your master.
Untrue. Please read my posts. There were many others ways a servant could leave other then the two you list.
"Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward." (1 Peter 2:18) The word "froward" is translated in other version of the Bible as "cruel", "harsh", "unreasonable", etc. So you were to obey, no matter whether or not your master was good or not.
That’s right. This is in keeping with the example of Christ obeying the laws that subjected him to death.
Wed Apr 23, 07:08:00 AM 2008
Jason said...
Sconnor: When faced with a real argument you resort to an illogical one and answer with a rhetorical. This has nothing to do with nationalities and everything to do with a schizophrenic god who can't make up his mind...
It has everything to do with the Old Testament. Answer the question: are you an OT Israelite?
Ohhhh, first it was, they don't say first born, now it's back to the original argument. Let the tap dancing begin. I show you it says first born, so you have to diverge -- what? it does say first born? hey, look over there, ummmm now show me God says it's perfectly acceptable.
I haven't argued the reference you provided didn’t say “first born”. Go back and read the posts. I said “The verse you’re referring to doesn’t say anything about firstborn sons being offered to Him.” Then I asked "How many of these translations mention that God says it's perfectly acceptable for first born sons to be sacrificed to Him?".
Your argument is not won because god does not orate his acceptance. It's written right there in B&W. By god LETTING them offer their first born, as a sacrifice, he demonstrates that it is acceptable.
It’s not acceptable. It’s a “punishment”. Likewise, God let the Israelites worship idols but you’ll be hard pressed to prove this was ‘acceptable’.
If god did not want to punish them or horrify them, then he would have deemed it unacceptable and he would NOT LET them sacrifice their first born.
Please read my posts more carefully – God did deem this kind of behaviour unacceptable (Deut 18:10, et al).
It is by god's complacency and inaction, to tell them NOT to sacrifice their first born, thereby LETTING them sacrifice the first born, that wholly demonstrates he finds it completely acceptable.
Flawed logic. God lets man take responsibility for his own actions. This precedent was laid out in Genesis and it runs all the way through to Revelation.
If someone was sacrificing your child and you thought it was completely unacceptable (which any reasonable father would) would you let them continue with the sacrifice or would you do everything in your power to STOP, what you rightly deemed unacceptable and heinous?
This is a false analogy since the Israelites weren’t sacrificing God’s son. The Jews did though, in the NT, and thank God He didn’t follow your logic and prevent the sacrifice.
God thinks it is perfectly acceptable to accept the sacrifice of the first born children.
Incorrect. You have yet to show that the sacrifice of the firstborn children were made to Him.
Wed Apr 23, 07:31:00 AM 2008
sconnor said...
Jason,
Jason said, It has everything to do with the Old Testament.
That's right. In the OT, god says, thou shalt not kill and he also says kill kill kill. He contradicts himself. He is completely fucked in the head. And you condone his barbaric actions of telling his followers to kill women, children, and babies -- you are just as fucked up as he is.
Jason asking an asinine rhetorical, demands, Answer the question: are you an OT Israelite?
Make your feeble point already. You know, if it is a valid point, that reconciles a god who says thou shalt not kill, out of one side of his mouth, then says, kill ALL the men women, children and babies, out of the other side of his mouth.
Diverge, diverge, diverge, rhetorical, rhetorical, rhetorical.
Jason said, I haven't argued the reference you provided didn’t say “first born”.
Good, then we are in agreement, the verse is about the first born being sacrificed.
Jason then tries to make another, sorry, invalid, point by painfully saying, “The verse you’re referring to doesn’t say anything about firstborn sons being offered to Him.”
That has nothing to do with it. It doesn't matter if they were offering to him or other gods. God let them do it and by LETTING them do it, with the detestable, MOTIVE to horrify them, he is clearly, in acceptance of this most heinous of practices.
Jason weakly argues, It’s not acceptable. It’s a “punishment”.
First, it is an unacceptable punishment, by any moral standard.
Second,you are completely wrong, anyway. This verse does not say it was a "punishment". The only thing it says is "desolate" -- to be appalling, to stupify or to horrify. Nor does the verse make clear, if they were offering the first born sacrifices to god or to other gods -- nor does it matter.
http://bible.crosswalk.com/InterlinearBible/bible.cgi?word=Ezekiel+20%3A26§ion=1&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ge&NavGo=&NavCurrentChapter=
By trying to argue or condone god's actions by saying it's a "punishment", is morally disgusting and insidiously reprehensible. You're saying it's OK, that the first born children are being sacrificed, because it's a punishment. You are more demented and delusional then I thought.
Any god that would let children suffer or cause children to suffer as a punishment or for any reason, is a gruesome, sadistic, demented fuck.
God says,
Obey me and worship me or I will punish you in cruel, sadistic, sick and unimaginable ways.
Obey me and worship me or I will horrify you by letting you sacrifice your first born.
Obey me and worship me or I will kill all your first born.
Obey me and worship me or I will drown you.
Obey me and worship me or I will cause you to have hideous diseases.
Obey me and worship me or I will cause pestilence.
Obey me and worship me or I will cause famine.
Obey me and worship me or I will send an army and commit genocide.
Obey me and worship me or I will cause animals to viciously attack and kill you.
Obey me and worship me or I will create a fire-storm and wipe and kill off an entire city.
Obey me and worship me or I will torture you, in the flames, of hell, for an eternity.
I will use FEAR, INTIMIDATION, TORTURE, DESTRUCTION, SUFFERING and KILLING so you will obey me and worship me!
This is not a holy, loving, and righteous god; this is a sadistic, sick, brutal, psycho-fuck -- not worthy of compliance or devotion.
The only thing this vile dictator-god is worthy of, is infinite disgust and utter contempt.
Jason said, Please read my posts more carefully – God did deem this kind of behavior unacceptable (Deut 18:10, et al).
Right, so he contradicts his proclamation of it being unacceptable by LETTING it happen. And yet he loved the world so much that he sent his only son to be sacrificed. If sacrificing is so unacceptable, why have a system in place for salvation that includes human sacrifice?
Jason said, Flawed logic. God lets man take responsibility for his own actions.
If that were true, then god would always keep a hand's off approach, but sadly he can't keep his grubby, little, mitts to himself, so he punishes, causes suffering, kills and orders people to do his dirty work -- hardly letting man take responsibility for their own actions.
This is a false analogy since the Israelites weren’t sacrificing God’s son. The Jews did though, in the NT, and thank God He didn’t follow your logic and prevent the sacrifice.
Right -- the ultimate of acceptance. Another glaring contradiction. god decreed human sacrifice wicked and unacceptable, yet he brought to the earth, his only son, for the ultimate purpose of being sacrificed. If god decreed human sacrifice unacceptable, why is it part of the system for salvation? If god truly, did think human sacrifice was unacceptable, he would not have made it part of the system, to save humanity.
Once again, you got nothing, except arguing it's a false analogy because it was not his son, out of one side of your mouth, making the point that, because it was not his son, there should be no credence to the argument, but then out of the other side of your mouth, you -- for all intents and purposes -- affirm my analogy by bringing up god's son, being sacrificed -- nothing like painting your self into a corner.
And in the analogy, any normal, humane, responsible person, whether it be his son or not would think it was wholly, detestable and would still do everything in their power to stop it. Would you let a child sacrifice happen, if it was another child?
And another argument is, even if the first born were not god's sons, he is still their father and they are his earthly children.
God thinks it is perfectly acceptable, to let the first born children, to be sacrificed.
You say, Incorrect. You have yet to show that the sacrifice of the firstborn children were made to Him.
God thinks it is perfectly acceptable by letting them sacrifice their first born to him or to other gods or in the case of Jesus it is a perfectly acceptable way for salvation. God thinks it is acceptable because he LET'S it happen.
God is a coward and a punk for throwing his own son on the grenade to save the platoon.
Any self-respecting Deity would have saved humanity, by doing it himself.
And any non-sadistic, non-demented Deity would have done it without, excruciating, suffering and sacrificing by being crucified to death.
You got nothing, except for a warped, fairy tale -- a figment of your delusional mind.
Put the cuckoo back in the cuckoo clock.
--S.
Thu Apr 24, 12:20:00 AM 2008
Anon said...
sconner said: "God thinks it is perfectly acceptable by letting them sacrifice their first born to him or to other gods or in the case of Jesus it is a perfectly acceptable way for salvation. God thinks it is acceptable because he LET'S it happen."
This reminded me of the Catholic (and others') teaching of sins of commission and sins of omission. If the omnipotent God lets bad things happen and doesn't stop them, isn't this a sin of omission?
This would then add to all the bad things he actively did (sending plagues and such).
Thu Apr 24, 06:06:00 AM 2008
Jason said...
Sconnor,
I’ll have to assume you’re unable to answer the question about whether or not you’re an OT Israelite.
Good, then we are in agreement, the verse is about the first born being sacrificed.
I've never argued otherwise. The verses are about firstborn children being sacrificed - they’re not about firstborn children being sacrificed to God.
God let them do it and by LETTING them do it, with the detestable, MOTIVE to horrify them, he is clearly, in acceptance of this most heinous of practices.
God gives people freewill. He then sets out rules and guidelines. Should someone choose to break these laws, God lets it happen because He has told man, repeatedly, he will be held accountable for his own actions. Read the entire chapter of Ezekiel 20 and this becomes abundantly clear.
Second,you are completely wrong, anyway. This verse does not say it was a "punishment". The only thing it says is "desolate" -- to be appalling, to stupify or to horrify.
The entire chapter gives a detailed and vivid account of the Israelites sinning and God’s subsequent punishments. Verse 27 says the Israelites “committed a trespass” against God by sacrificing their children, and God allowed it to happen so that the people would, in hindsight, be horrified at how far they had strayed from God’s commandments. Hence verse 4 "...cause them to know the abominations of their fathers."
Nor does the verse make clear, if they were offering the first born sacrifices to god or to other gods -- nor does it matter.
The verse is crystal clear and it does matter since you’re insistent these sacrifices were being given to God. You said: “…he thinks it's OK to commit murder by allowing unacceptable, first born sons to be sacrificed, to him…” Which is it? Are the sacrifices being given to God to something other then God?
Right, so he contradicts his proclamation of it being unacceptable by LETTING it happen.
Again, this is flawed logic. God says, “Don’t worship idols”. The freedom to worship idols is up to the individual. If they do, God punishes them. Punishment indicates a disagreement about the behaviour of the individual. God says, “Don’t sacrifice your children to idols”. When the Israelites do, they’re punished. This is in line with Deut 18:10 and the half dozen other verses that communicate God’s disgust over this kind of behaviour.
And yet he loved the world so much that he sent his only son to be sacrificed. If sacrificing is so unacceptable, why have a system in place for salvation that includes human sacrifice?
Christ "offered himself", he wasn't sacrificed by the Jews. Read Hebrews 7 & 9.
If that were true, then god would always keep a hand's off approach, but sadly he can't keep his grubby, little, mitts to himself, so he punishes, causes suffering, kills and orders people to do his dirty work -- hardly letting man take responsibility for their own actions.
Untrue. Adam & Eve took responsibility for sinning in the Garden and were punished accordingly. Personal responsibility is found on virtually every page in Scripture, culminating with “the wages of sin is death” (Romans 6:23).
Right -- the ultimate of acceptance. Another glaring contradiction. god decreed human sacrifice wicked and unacceptable, yet he brought to the earth, his only son, for the ultimate purpose of being sacrificed.
Christ "offered himself", he wasn't sacrificed by the Jews. Read Hebrews 7 & 9.
God thinks it is perfectly acceptable, to let the first born children, to be sacrificed.
Incorrect. “For when ye offer your gifts, when ye make your sons to pass through the fire, ye pollute yourselves with all your idols…” (Ezek 20:31)
God thinks it is perfectly acceptable by letting them sacrifice their first born to him or to other gods or in the case of Jesus it is a perfectly acceptable way for salvation. God thinks it is acceptable because he LET'S it happen.
Incorrect. Please read Lev 18:21, 2Ki 17:17, 2Ki 21:6, 2Ch 28:3, 2Ch 33:6 and Jer 32:35 and Eze 16:20-21.
Thu Apr 24, 07:49:00 AM 2008
sconnor said...
Jason,
You said, I’ll have to assume you’re unable to answer the question about whether or not you’re an OT Israelite.
I'll have to assume... no, wait, I know, you are completely screwy, for asking such an absurd question and then never making your point. If you had a valid point you would have tried to make it already.
1. It does not matter if they were sacrificing the first born to god or other gods, in order to make it acceptable or unacceptable. If god is using the practice to horrify them, then he is accepting of the practice. It is of use to him -- albeit a demented, gruesome use -- letting children suffer, for a morbid motive. If god truly thought it was unacceptable then he would have put a stop to it.
2. Your free will argument does not hold up, because god thought it was truly unacceptable for his people to be enslaved by Pharaoh -- so god intervened.
If god thought first born sacrifices were truly unacceptable -- a practice far worse than slavery -- then, why didn't he intervene?
Because it was an acceptable way for him to intimidate and horrify.
Free will does not exist when someone holds the "proverbial gun", to your head, with the threat of torture, suffering, and death. You are a severely mixed up delusional christian zealot.
3. Your punishment argument has no validity, because nowhere in Ezekiel does it say god let them sacrifice first born to punish them and even if it did say it was because he was punishing them, then that would make god accepting of the practice so he could punish.
4. Show me in the verse where it is "crystal clear", that the sacrifices were not to god.
Show me in the verse where god says he let them offer sacrifices of the first born to "PUNISH" them. Show me a verse in Ezekiel where it says specifically, god was PUNISHING THEM BY LETTING THEM OFFER THEIR FIRST BORN SACRIFICES.
Ez 20:26 and I pronounced them unclean because of their gifts, in that they caused all their firstborn to pass through so that I might make them desolate, in order that they might know that I am the LORD."'
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http://www.biblestudytools.net/InterlinearBible/bible.cgi
5. God sent Jesus to the world, to save humanity, using human sacrifice as a tool for salvation. Why does a god, so unaccepting of human sacrifices, use a human sacrifice, to save the world? God is accepting of human sacrifices. If he was not, he would have used an entirely different system, to save humanity.
6. God deems human sacrifices wicked and unacceptable in many parts of the Bible but god contradicts himself by allowing it to happen in Ez 20:26. And by allowing it to happen, is most assuredly, a form of acceptance. And what does god use to save humanity? That's right ladies and gentlemen -- a sacrifice. God thinks human sacrifices (contradicting many passages in the Bible) are perfectly acceptable to horrify his people and for human salvation.
YOU GOT NOTHING.
BTW your interpretation of the Garden of Eden story is just as delusional and you have to jump through hoops and add layers of interpretation, just so it can, also, fit in your warped world-view. You bang hard on that square peg, but it just won't fit in that round hole.
--S.
Thu Apr 24, 09:54:00 PM 2008
Jason said...
Sconnor said: 1. If god truly thought it was unacceptable then he would have put a stop to it.
God doesn’t think sacrificing children is acceptable. In addition to the many references I've provided already, Ezekiel 20 says the Israelite "polluted themselves with their idols". The whole chapter outlines the "abominations of their fathers". Neither phrase is used in conjunction with acceptance.
2. Your free will argument does not hold up, because god thought it was truly unacceptable for his people to be enslaved by Pharaoh -- so god intervened.
I don’t see the relevance of this to the Israelites breaking the commandments of God.
If god thought first born sacrifices were truly unacceptable -- a practice far worse than slavery -- then, why didn't he intervene?
The same reason why He doesn’t intervene when anyone sins – because man has freewill and is held accountable for his actions.
Free will does not exist when someone holds the "proverbial gun", to your head, with the threat of torture, suffering, and death. You are a severely mixed up delusional christian zealot.
God promised blessings if the Israelites followed him. God promised punishment if they didn’t. Sometimes they followed Him, sometimes they didn’t, and the outcome was what God promised in both instances.
3. Your punishment argument has no validity, because nowhere in Ezekiel does it say god let them sacrifice first born to punish them and even if it did say it was because he was punishing them, then that would make god accepting of the practice so he could punish.
God doesn’t think sacrificing children is acceptable. Please read the references I’ve provided.
4. Show me in the verse where it is "crystal clear", that the sacrifices were not to god.
Please read my posts more carefully. “For when ye offer your gifts, when ye make your sons to pass through the fire, ye pollute yourselves with all your idols…” (Ezek 20:31)
Show me in the verse where god says he let them offer sacrifices of the first born to "PUNISH" them. Show me a verse in Ezekiel where it says specifically, god was PUNISHING THEM BY LETTING THEM OFFER THEIR FIRST BORN SACRIFICES.
Verse 26 concludes with “…to the end that they might know that I am the LORD.” God punished the Israelites by allowing them to offer their children to idols, in the same way He punished the Israelites by sending them into captivity. The ultimate outcome in both instances was that the Israelites repented of their sins and called on God once again.
5. God sent Jesus to the world, to save humanity, using human sacrifice as a tool for salvation. Why does a god, so unaccepting of human sacrifices, use a human sacrifice, to save the world? God is accepting of human sacrifices. If he was not, he would have used an entirely different system, to save humanity.
You’re not reading my posts. Jesus offered himself up freely, he wasn’t sacrificed to God by the Jews. Read Hebrews 7 & 9.
6. God deems human sacrifices wicked and unacceptable in many parts of the Bible but god contradicts himself by allowing it to happen in Ezek 20:26.
There’s no contradiction since God never claims He finds the practice acceptable. This is something you’re trying to read into the text. God allows sin to happen but this doesn’t mean He ‘accepts’ sin.
And by allowing it to happen, is most assuredly, a form of acceptance. And what does god use to save humanity? That's right ladies and gentlemen -- a sacrifice. God thinks human sacrifices (contradicting many passages in the Bible) are perfectly acceptable to horrify his people and for human salvation.
Jesus offered himself up freely, he wasn’t sacrificed to God by the Jews. Read Hebrews 7 & 9.
Fri Apr 25, 06:20:00 AM 2008
sconnor said...
Jason,
5. God sent Jesus to the world, to save humanity, using human sacrifice as a tool for salvation. Why does a god, so unaccepting of human sacrifices, use a human sacrifice, to save the world? God is accepting of human sacrifices. If he was not, he would have used an entirely different system, to save humanity.
Jason, erroneously, thinking I'm not reading his posts said, You’re not reading my posts. Jesus offered himself up freely, he wasn’t sacrificed to God by the Jews. Read Hebrews 7 & 9.
Doesn't matter if Jesus didn't go kicking and screaming and that he offered himself up freely. It is still a human sacrifice, that god is using as a tool for salvation -- god is accepting of human sacrifices, when it suits his needs.
Hebrews 10:8-10 First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made). Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Jason, what was god's will? Could it be he wanted Jesus to sacrifice himself? Did Jesus submit to god's will? That means Jesus did not have free will and god completely condoned human sacrifice, contradicting, all, your other, insipid, bible verses. NO FREE WILL and human sacrifice is perfectly, ACCEPTABLE for salvation.
Admit it Jason, you got shit.
Jason said, God doesn’t think sacrificing children is acceptable. In addition to the many references I've provided already, Ezekiel 20 says the Israelite "polluted themselves with their idols". The whole chapter outlines the "abominations of their fathers". Neither phrase is used in conjunction with acceptance.
Ahhh, thank you. It is you, that helped me to realize, that god is not angry for them offering first born sacrifices; he is angry, that they are not offering it to him. God finds it, perfectly, acceptable for first born sacrifices, as long as it is to him, and not to the other gods, in the form of idols.
2. Your free will argument does not hold up, because god thought it was truly unacceptable for his people to be enslaved by Pharaoh -- so god intervened.
Jason tries to finagle out of this, by saying, I don’t see the relevance of this to the Israelites breaking the commandments of God.
Of course you don't; you can't, otherwise it brings up seeds of doubt and you can't have that, when you are trying to protect a feeble, asinine, thoroughly fallible, imaginary, human construct -- that fairy tale, in your own mind.
The relevance is either you have free will where god does not intervene or you don't have free will because god does intervene -- you can't have both.
If god thought first born sacrifices were truly unacceptable -- a practice far worse than slavery -- then, why didn't he intervene?
Jason ineptly points out, The same reason why He doesn’t intervene when anyone sins – because man has freewill and is held accountable for his actions.
Except god does intervene: hardening Pharaoh's heart, causing men to become delusional, so they will believe lies, sending she-bears to savagely rip apart boys, because they made fun of a bald guy... God DOES NOT give us a REAL choice in serving him or rejecting him. He puts the "proverbial gun", to our heads and tells us to worship, obey and choose him by intimidation, torture, threats, suffering, destruction, death and eternal damnation, in the pits of hell -- NO CHOICE; NO FREE WILL.
You are a sick, delusional, shit-for-brains, christian asshole, who worships a demented fucked up Deity.
You got NOTHING, but shit -- and most of it is sloshing around in your skull.
--S.
Fri Apr 25, 04:05:00 PM 2008
Jason said...
Doesn't matter if Jesus didn't go kicking and screaming and that he offered himself up freely. It is still a human sacrifice, that god is using as a tool for salvation -- god is accepting of human sacrifices, when it suits his needs.
It does matter. Christ didn’t have his parents kill him as a sacrifice to God – he gave himself up freely. I would assume the difference is obvious.
Jason, what was god's will? Could it be he wanted Jesus to sacrifice himself? Did Jesus submit to god's will? That means Jesus did not have free will and god completely condoned human sacrifice, contradicting, all, your other, insipid, bible verses.
You’re forgetting that it’s the act of submission tha's done voluntarily. Christ knew what God wanted him to do – but Jesus still had to make the choice himself to go through with it. This is why Christ went through such turmoil in the Garden of Gethsemane. A little more reading of Scripture on your part would have made this abundantly clear.
Ahhh, thank you. It is you, that helped me to realize, that god is not angry for them offering first born sacrifices; he is angry, that they are not offering it to him. God finds it, perfectly, acceptable for first born sacrifices, as long as it is to him, and not to the other gods, in the form of idols.
Incorrect. If you’d read the references I provided and take a look at the Mosaic law, you’ll see God never wants, or requires, children to be sacrificed to Him. These sorts of sacrifices are an “abomination”.
The relevance is either you have free will where god does not intervene or you don't have free will because god does intervene -- you can't have both.
Er, you most certainly can. If your child is trashing his bedroom and you go and intervene, are you implying your child doesn’t have free will simply because you’ve intervened?
Except god does intervene: hardening Pharaoh's heart, causing men to become delusional, so they will believe lies, sending she-bears to savagely rip apart boys, because they made fun of a bald guy... God DOES NOT give us a REAL choice in serving him or rejecting him.
Incorrect. You have yet to prove that intervening somehow removes choice. The Israelites always had the freedom to choose whether or not to follow God. When they did, He blessed them, as He said He would. When they didn’t, He punished them, as He said He would.
He puts the "proverbial gun", to our heads and tells us to worship, obey and choose him by intimidation, torture, threats, suffering, destruction, death and eternal damnation, in the pits of hell -- NO CHOICE; NO FREE WILL.
This only serves to highlight your lack of understanding of the subject. God goes through great lengths to explain exactly how He will bless those who follow him. He also goes through great lengths to explain exactly how He will punish those who choose not to. It makes no difference to God if you follow Him or not – you end up getting exactly what He said you would get.
God says, follow me and I’ll give you eternal life, don’t follow me and I won’t. It’s not a tough decision to make – yet many, like yourself, seem unable to understand this most simplest of equations.
Fri Apr 25, 06:15:00 PM 2008
sconnor said...
Jason,
Jason says, It does matter. Christ didn’t have his parents kill him as a sacrifice to God – he gave himself up freely. I would assume the difference is obvious.
It's obvious that he gave himself up as opposed to his parents sacrificing him, but it was a sacrifice, non the less, that god willed -- it's a god sanctioned event. It's god's system to use human sacrifice, for the salvation of humanity. God is accepting of human sacrifices to "save" the world -- it's his system; he's the one who came up with it. God willed Jesus to be sacrificed, god let Jesus be sacrificed, Jesus let Jesus be sacrificed and he was sacrificed -- it is acceptable to god. If it was completely unacceptable, god would not have come up with this system of salvation, he would not have willed it and Jesus would not have gone through with it. It had to be acceptable, or your fucked-up, delusion of being saved, would not have been permissible.
Jason, making a lame analogy, says, in a dumb fashion, Er, you most certainly can. If your child is trashing his bedroom and you go and intervene, are you implying your child doesn’t have free will simply because you’ve intervened?
Yes. If I intervened, then the child does not have free will -- I have stifled his will. I, on the other hand, have the free will to trash my room, if I so desire. A child has a choice to trash his room but if I intervene, I have alleviated that choice for him and now he does not have free will to trash that room. Either you have free will or you don't. Any time one intercedes on ones will, then free will has been truncated -- NO FREE WILL.
Jason succinctly says, Incorrect. You have yet to prove that intervening somehow removes choice.
And Pharaoh was given the choice of having his heart hardened?
He puts the "proverbial gun", to our heads and tells us to worship, obey and choose him by intimidation, torture, threats, suffering, destruction, death and eternal damnation, in the pits of hell -- NO CHOICE; NO FREE WILL.
Jason then enlightens us by saying, This only serves to highlight your lack of understanding of the subject.
Oh, I have an all too well understanding and firm grasp on the subject matter. Actually, this serves to highlight your asinine delusion, that you are one of the lucky few, who has chosen the "right" god and are in the "right" religion, thinking you are doing the "right" things from your own specific brand of Christianity, so that you'll win the big prize in the sky, while all others are damned. Congratulations, Jason, you won the golden ticket to funky-town -- wow, you are soooo fortunate! Do you hear that sound? It's the sound of a cuckoo clock, cuckooing, incessantly, in your ears.
Jason tries to simplify matters by saying, God goes through great lengths to explain exactly how He will bless those who follow him. He also goes through great lengths to explain exactly how He will punish those who choose not to.
It's still not a choice if he uses threats, intimidation, torture, suffering, destruction, death and eternal damnation. God says, obey me worship me, do as I say, or I'll put the "proverbial gun" to your head and pull the trigger and you won't get that shiny paradise -- NO CHOICE, NO FREE WILL.
God says, follow me and I’ll give you eternal life, don’t follow me and I will torture you, intimidate you, cause you unimaginable suffering, I'll lay to ruin your cities, cause infanticide, cause genocide, unparalleled to anything humanity has wrought and if that weren't enough, if you don't follow me, worship me and obey me, upon your death, you will not just cease to exist, I will, now send you to a place, to be tortured, in flames, for an eternity. It’s not a tough decision to make – yet many, like yourself, seem unable to understand this most simplest of equations.
Yeah your right it's not a tough decision -- it's NO decision, at all. NO CHOICE; NO FREE WILL and one hell of an illogical equation, but that's to be expected from a delusional
Christadelphian fuck-job, like yourself. You got NOTHING.
--S.
Fri Apr 25, 09:44:00 PM 2008
Jason said...
It's obvious that he gave himself up as opposed to his parents sacrificing him, but it was a sacrifice, non the less, that god willed -- it's a god sanctioned event.
The death of Christ was not a human sacrifice. From looking at the old law it should be apparent that God never wanted human sacrifice - He didn't even want animal sacrifices. I suggest you brush up on the atonement and then have a good, hard look at the OT sacrifice laws.
Yes. If I intervened, then the child does not have free will -- I have stifled his will.
Your intervening only prevents your child from further trashing his room. It does nothing else. Your child can still decide to stick out his tongue, or throw a fit, or pick up a book and toss it out the window. You can even tell him that if he cleans up his room, you’ll give him a cookie. If he doesn’t, he goes to bed early. He chooses. Freely.
I, on the other hand, have the free will to trash my room, if I so desire. A child has a choice to trash his room but if I intervene, I have alleviated that choice for him and now he does not have free will to trash that room.
You haven't alleviated anything and you most certainly haven't alleviated free will. Unless you tie him down or drug him, you can't force him to not trash his room. The purpose of your intervention is to make it crystal clear what would happen if he decides to do it again. But there should be no question the choice will be his to make the moment you step out that room.
Either you have free will or you don't. Any time one intercedes on ones will, then free will has been truncated -- NO FREE WILL.
Free will has already been exercised before the intervention occurred, free will exists during the intervention, and free will will exist after. All you’ve done is attempted to put a stop to an event or behaviour. Nothing more.
And Pharaoh was given the choice of having his heart hardened?
No, he wasn’t. But then Pharaoh is the one example that we’re explicitly told God hardened his heart. Romans 9.
Oh, I have an all too well understanding and firm grasp on the subject matter. Actually, this serves to highlight your asinine delusion, that you are one of the lucky few, who has chosen the "right" god and are in the "right" religion…
Red herring. For the OT Israelites, God clearly outlined the prerequisites for blessings and cursings. He left it up to them to do what they wanted. And they did. The followed Him most of the time and were blessed because of it. Other times, they stopped following Him and were punished. It’s really, really simple. God doesn’t hold a gun to anyone’s head and demands they worship Him. Salvation will be given to the righteous and nothing will be given to the wicked. It is what it is.
It's still not a choice if he uses threats, intimidation, torture, suffering, destruction, death and eternal damnation. God says, obey me worship me, do as I say, or I'll put the "proverbial gun" to your head and pull the trigger and you won't get that shiny paradise -- NO CHOICE, NO FREE WILL.
Of course it’s a choice. The Israelites were faced with this decision many, many times. God promised them blessings and explained, in detail, exactly what they needed to do to receive them. He did the same for cursings. Have a read through the first few chapters of Deuteronomy – it’s all right there.
Yeah your right it's not a tough decision -- it's NO decision, at all. NO CHOICE; NO FREE WILL and one hell of an illogical equation…
Scripture disagrees. The Israelites still turned their backs on God numerous times even after being explicitly told what would happen if they did.
Fri Apr 25, 11:29:00 PM 2008
sconnor said...
Jason said, The death of Christ was not a human sacrifice.
And what is that saying you are so fond of, oh, yeah, Scripture disagrees.
Hebrews 10:8-10 First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made). Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Let's see, we have a body and it's being sacrificed and he's got a name, Jesus.
Was it a dog sacrifice?
Was it a plant sacrifice?
Was it an alien sacrifice?
Was it a goat sacrifice?
Wow, why would a god, who supposedly doesn't like human sacrifices, have a system of salvation, that includes a human sacrifice?
Just because you say, it is not a human sacrifice, doesn't make it true.
I'm not sure if you are completely delusional or a complete idiot -- I'm beginning to suspect, both.
Jason knows how to break the will of a child, by saying, Unless you tie him down or drug him, you can't force him to not trash his room.
...Or, unless, you can do, what your demented, crazy, psycho-fuck, of a god does -- threaten to harm, intimidate, cause diseases, suffering, torture, destruction or death.
You are a complete, asshole, to think, you can not force or control a people with fear, threats, torture, intimidation, thereby abolishing their free will. When you control by these tactics, you have taken away free will, just as your jerk-wad god does.
Seriously Jason, do you flog yourself at night? Because you are horribly ill.
The scrambled brains of Jason concocted and said, Free will has already been exercised before the intervention occurred, free will exists during the intervention, and free will will exist after. All you’ve done is attempted to put a stop to an event or behaviour. Nothing more... But there should be no question the choice will be his to make the moment you step out that room.
That, is if you were, only, a reasonable parent and gave "little Tommy" a time-out or took away his video game privileges, but if the parent was a maniacal, abusive, psycho-fuck, prick, like your god, it would be easy to stomp the free will out of him and make him a blind, obedient, babbling, drooling submissive -- much like yourself.
First, you could threaten the child with death.
If that didn't work, then you could round up his three siblings -- to show who's god... I mean, who's boss -- and right before little Tommy's, horrified eyes, you drown, to death, the first one, in the bathtub, then you inject the second one, with a hideous disease, causing a slow, painful death, and then, the last one, you torture him day after day, with a blowtorch, barely keeping him alive, for the rest of his life, in a pit, out back. You tell little Tommy to obey and if he does not obey and do exactly what is said, then the same wrathful punishments will befall him and he won't be able to go on vacation, to Paradise Island in the Bahamas. NO FREE WILL, ONLY CONTROL BY FEAR AND TORTURE, by a vile sick parent -- JUST LIKE YOUR GOD.
I said, Oh, I have an all too well understanding and firm grasp on the subject matter. Actually, this serves to highlight your asinine delusion, that you are one of the lucky few, who has chosen the "right" god and are in the "right" religion…
You said, Red herring.
God, you're an idiot. Red herring?
I say god holds a gun to our heads, threatening us, to do what he says, or he'll cause suffering or death and you say, he goes through great lengths to explain how he will punish and bless us... God says, follow me and I’ll give you eternal life, don’t follow me and I won’t --which demonstrates your asinine delusion, that you, little Jason Christian, is HOLDER OF THE ONE AND ONLY TRUTH and your specific, kooky, religion and your dumb-fuck, psycho-god is the only way. I wasn't throwing you off course; this wasn't a plot device, this was a direct assessment to the previous comments and is in no way a red herring -- you really, really, shouldn't play with big words, if you don't know how to use them.
YOU GOT NOTHING, except the delusion, that the bible is the word of god and you will be resurrected and immortalized, because you know the one and only truth.
Do you ever get tired of making your index finger, go up and down, really fast, between your lips -- BBbbbbBBBbbbBBBBbbbbbbbbBBBBbb!!!!!
--S.
Mon Apr 28, 12:00:00 AM 2008
Jason said...
Sconnor said: Wow, why would a god, who supposedly doesn't like human sacrifices, have a system of salvation, that includes a human sacrifice?
Because it wasn't a human sacrifice. As already stated, Scripture is clear God doesn’t accept or approve of children being sacrificed to him. This is without dispute. We know that Christ’s ‘sacrifice’ was a freewill offering – he offered himself to God.
Hebrews 7:27 “…for this he did once, when he offered up himself.”
Hebrews 9:14 “…offered himself without spot to God,
Hebrews 9:25 “Nor yet that he should offer himself often…”
Titus 2:14 “Who gave himself for us…”
There’s no comparison of the crucifixion of Christ by the Romans to parents killing and burning their children as a sacrifice to idols. Again, I’m going to suggest you brush up on the atonement and then have a good, hard look at the OT sacrifice laws.
Jason knows how to break the will of a child, by saying, Unless you tie him down or drug him, you can't force him to not trash his room.
You’re obviously unable to offer anything by way of an intelligent rebuttal to my analogy of a child trashing his room so I’ll have to assume you agree that intervention doesn’t remove free will.
I say god holds a gun to our heads, threatening us, to do what he says, or he'll cause suffering or death and you say, he goes through great lengths to explain how he will punish and bless us... God says, follow me and I’ll give you eternal life, don’t follow me and I won’t…
I’m not sure what you’re struggling with. God says, choose life or choose death (Deut 30). If we choose death, we get death. If we choose life, we get life. It’s pretty straightforward, people have been voluntarily making this choice for thousands of years.
--which demonstrates your asinine delusion, that you, little Jason Christian, is HOLDER OF THE ONE AND ONLY TRUTH
Where did I say this? Quote me please.
YOU GOT NOTHING, except the delusion, that the bible is the word of god and you will be resurrected and immortalized, because you know the one and only truth.
Where did I say this? Quote me please.
Mon Apr 28, 07:13:00 AM 2008
Dave said...
You said it here, on your "Statement of Faith" website:
That the unfaithful will be consigned to shame and "the second death," and the faithful, invested with immortality, and exalted to reign with Jesus as joint heirs of the Kingdom, co-possessors of the earth, and joint administrators of God's authority among men in everything.
Tue Apr 29, 07:40:00 AM 2008
sconnor said...
Jason,
Jason continues to sound like a broken record, says, Because it wasn't a human sacrifice. As already stated, Scripture is clear God doesn’t accept or approve of children being sacrificed to him. This is without dispute. We know that Christ’s ‘sacrifice’ was a freewill offering – he offered himself to God.
It was a human sacrifice. Jesus was human and he sacrificed himself, because god willed it.
Your "free will" argument ultimately fails because you are saying it is OK , if the human, sacrificed -- himself. That's like saying it was morally acceptable for a virgin to be sacrificed to the volcano gods because she went willingly and sacrificed herself -- not kicking and screaming.
Honestly, Jason don't you ever choke on the bullshit you spew? You keep saying it's not a human sacrifice; how is it not a human sacrifice, when Jesus was human and he sacrificed himself, because god willed it? See this is how it works, I show you Jesus was human and he sacrificed himself; it's your job to show me how he was not human and he did not sacrifice himself -- but you can't. You keep resorting to the same old testament verses saying god does not accept human sacrifices, which is clearly contradicted with god's system of Jesus sacrificing himself (even willingly) to secure the salvation of the sinful.
Just like the ancient Jews sacrificed a goat for a sin offering -- a scapegoat; Jesus sacrificed himself to take on the sins of the world because god willed it. Jesus is nothing more than a idiotic, scapegoat, for humanity.
Jason making dumb ass assumptions, says, You’re obviously unable to offer anything by way of an intelligent rebuttal to my analogy of a child trashing his room so I’ll have to assume you agree that intervention doesn’t remove free will.
And yet I did offer an intelligent and more accurate analogy to your lame analogy as a rebuttal that you could not comment on.
That, is if you were, only, a reasonable parent and gave "little Tommy" a time-out or took away his video game privileges, but if the parent was a maniacal, abusive, psycho-fuck, prick, like your god, it would be easy to stomp the free will out of him and make him a blind, obedient, babbling, drooling submissive -- much like yourself.
First, you could threaten the child with death.
If that didn't work, then you could round up his three siblings -- to show who's god... I mean, who's boss -- and right before little Tommy's, horrified eyes, you drown, to death, the first one, in the bathtub, then you inject the second one, with a hideous disease, causing a slow, painful death, and then, the last one, you torture him day after day, with a blowtorch, barely keeping him alive, for the rest of his life, in a pit, out back. You tell little Tommy to obey and if he does not obey and do exactly what is said, then the same wrathful punishments will befall him and he won't be able to go on vacation, to Paradise Island in the Bahamas. NO FREE WILL, ONLY CONTROL BY FEAR AND TORTURE, by a vile sick parent -- JUST LIKE YOUR GOD.
Jason dazed and confused says, I’m not sure what you’re struggling with. God says, choose life or choose death (Deut 30). If we choose death, we get death. If we choose life, we get life. It’s pretty straightforward, people have been voluntarily making this choice for thousands of years.
It would be straight forward, if it were that simple, but when you add all the vile, sadistic and demented ways god makes us choose him, then suddenly the equation becomes convoluted and atrocious.
I'm not struggling with anything, ass-wipe. Just like I would not worship, obey or choose Hitler as my lord and ruler because he ruled with intimidation, fear, torture, genocide, infanticide, death and destruction, I will not choose a god who does the same.
--which demonstrates your asinine delusion, that you, little Jason Christian, is HOLDER OF THE ONE AND ONLY TRUTH
Jason sheepishly asks, Where did I say this? Quote me please.
Oh, you mean you don't know your specific, deluded, criteria on how to obtain eternal life?
YOU GOT NOTHING, except the delusion, that the bible is the word of god and you will be resurrected and immortalized, because you know the one and only truth.
Jason ignorantly says, Where did I say this? Quote me please.
"THE FOUNDATION
That the book currently known as the Bible, consisting of the Scriptures of Moses, the prophets, and the apostles, is the only source of knowledge concerning God and His purposes at present extant or available in the earth, and that the same were wholly given by inspiration of God in the writers, and are consequently without error in all parts of them."
"That at the close of the thousand years, there will be a general resurrection and judgment, resulting in the final extinction of the wicked, and the immortalization of those who shall have established their title (under the grace of God) to eternal life during the thousand years."
Again, you are a delusional asshole, who doesn't even know his own statement of faith.
You got nothing. You wallow in your own bullshit -- it must stink to high heaven.
--S.
Tue Apr 29, 04:01:00 PM 2008
Jason said...
Dave,
I don’t see anything here stating I’m the “HOLDER OF THE ONE AND ONLY TRUTH”, do you...?
Wed Apr 30, 06:46:00 AM 2008
Jason said...
Sconnor said: It was a human sacrifice. Jesus was human and he sacrificed himself, because god willed it.
Okay, let’s try something else since obviously it’s not sinking in. Firstly, define ‘human sacrifice’ as forbidden under the old law. Secondly, explain why it was being done. Thirdly, tell me what was being sacrificed and by whom.
See this is how it works, I show you Jesus was human and he sacrificed himself; it's your job to show me how he was not human and he did not sacrifice himself -- but you can't.
See above.
Just like the ancient Jews sacrificed a goat for a sin offering -- a scapegoat; Jesus sacrificed himself to take on the sins of the world because god willed it. Jesus is nothing more than a idiotic, scapegoat, for humanity.
Other then that last bit, you’re bang on. Well done.
That, is if you were, only, a reasonable parent and gave "little Tommy" a time-out or took away his video game privileges, but if the parent was a maniacal, abusive, psycho-fuck, prick, like your god, it would be easy to stomp the free will out of him and make him a blind, obedient, babbling, drooling submissive -- much like yourself.
Tiresome and irrelevant. Did God stomp out the free-will of the Israelites?
It would be straight forward, if it were that simple, but when you add all the vile, sadistic and demented ways god makes us choose him, then suddenly the equation becomes convoluted and atrocious.
Er, it is that simple. It’s unfortunate because your anger issues are getting in the way of comprehending this most basic of equations. God says, “choose life or choose death, I want you to choose life”. Gosh, it’s a tough one isn’t it? I can either live, or I can die. Tough call!
Oh, you mean you don't know your specific, deluded, criteria on how to obtain eternal life?
I’m asking you to show me where I said I am the “holder of the one and only truth”. Can you do that?
Again, you are a delusional asshole, who doesn't even know his own statement of faith.
I’m asking you to show me where I said I “know the one and only truth” . Can you do that?
Wed Apr 30, 07:31:00 AM 2008
Dave said...
Jason said: “I don’t see anything here stating I’m the “HOLDER OF THE ONE AND ONLY TRUTH”, do you...?”
No, but sconner never claimed that you said that that word-for-word. He didn’t put it in quotes. Your ramblings, the Christadelphian Statement of Faith, and the bible itself, makes it very clear (well, at least as clear as the bible can get), that worshipping Jesus is the only way to be with God. And you go to excruciating lengths in attempting to prove that your version of worship is the truth. Let’s clear this up: Do you believe that non-Christians will be in Heaven? Do you believe non-Christadelphians will be in Heaven?
Some basic questions for you Jason. What is your purpose here?
I suspect that you have never converted an EX-Christian back to Christianity. Have you? I also suspect that you *have* been successful in converting a Christian or two into becoming Christadelphian. Have you? If someone already believes the Bible is the word of God, you present very good evidence for your particular sect.
The thing is though, is that good folks like sconner and myself have survived life-altering events that have lifted the veil of our religion and exposed Christianity for what it really is. We are EX Christians. There is no going back for us. Ever.
Thu May 01, 06:40:00 AM 2008
sconnor said...
Jason,
Jason said, Okay, let’s try something else since obviously it’s not sinking in. Firstly, define ‘human sacrifice’ as forbidden under the old law. Secondly, explain why it was being done. Thirdly, tell me what was being sacrificed and by whom.
Definition of human sacrifice -- A human that is sacrificed.
Why -- to appease their gods
What and whom -- humans to gods.
This is what you said -- From looking at the old law it should be apparent that God never wanted human sacrifice - He didn't even want animal sacrifices.
So, if god thought human sacrifices were an abomination and as you say, "god never wanted human sacrifices", then how come he conceived a plan for restoration, that included the human sacrifice of his son, as a sin offering?
God finds human sacrifice unacceptable; god finds human sacrifice acceptable -- confusing.
Jesus sacrificed himself because god willed it, just like the virgin who agreed to sacrifice herself to appease her god. Both morally repugnant.
Jason not being able to comment directly to the, more accurate, analogy, diverges and feebly says, Tiresome and irrelevant. Did God stomp out the free-will of the Israelites?
Yes. Anytime they obeyed out of fear, intimidation, threats, torture, death and destruction, their free will was stomped out. Just like if I came to your house, pointed a gun to your head and said, "here are my rules, this is how it's going to work from now on". You must follow my rules or I will intimidate and threaten. If that doesn't work I will cause your relatives to become sick with diseases. If that doesn't work I will torture your children and if that doesn't work I will start to kill the ones you love one by one until you abide by my will, you cock-suck mother fucker -- just like your demented fuck-hole god does.
Jason stupidly says Errrrrrrrrr, Er, it is that simple. It’s unfortunate because your anger issues are getting in the way of comprehending this most basic of equations. God says, “choose life or choose death, I want you to choose life”. Gosh, it’s a tough one isn’t it? I can either live, or I can die. Tough call!
I am perfectly calm and definitely not angry. Just because I use vulgar language does not mean I am angry. If you read my posts that way, then you are projecting your anger on to them --that's your problem. And gosh-g-wilikers, I choose life -- with no strings attached, right? Because it is just as simple as choosing life over death -- right? OK, then -- super simple -- I choose life. You're right it was so fucking simple, I said, I -- CHOOSE -- LIFE, and BAM!, I have eternal life -- glory.
Jason stomps like a two year old and demands, I’m asking you to show me where I said I am the “holder of the one and only truth”. Can you do that?
Oh, good then we are in agreement, everything you say is bullshit and is not the truth.
Your last remaining wheel from your choo-choo just went off the track.
YOU GOT NOTHING.
--S.
Thu May 01, 07:37:00 AM 2008
Jason said...
Dave said: No, but sconner never claimed that you said that that word-for-word. He didn’t put it in quotes.
Lol Ah, I see.
Your ramblings, the Christadelphian Statement of Faith, and the bible itself, makes it very clear (well, at least as clear as the bible can get), that worshipping Jesus is the only way to be with God.
Sounds like an adequate description of Christianity.
And you go to excruciating lengths in attempting to prove that your version of worship is the truth.
Nope, sorry. You’re reading into things. I’m merely addressing incorrect statements that have been posted here. If someone says the Bible states Adam & Eve ate an apple and I say they didn’t, am I pushing my version of worship?
Let’s clear this up: Do you believe that non-Christians will be in Heaven? Do you believe non-Christadelphians will be in Heaven?
I don’t believe anyone will be in Heaven.
Some basic questions for you Jason. What is your purpose here?
On earth or on this website?
I suspect that you have never converted an EX-Christian back to Christianity. Have you?
No, but then I personally only know one. ☺
The thing is though, is that good folks like sconner and myself have survived life-altering events that have lifted the veil of our religion and exposed Christianity for what it really is. We are EX Christians. There is no going back for us. Ever.
That’s fine. I’m not trying to convert you.
Thu May 01, 09:47:00 AM 2008
Jason said...
Definition of human sacrifice -- A human that is sacrificed.
How was a human sacrificed?
Why -- to appease their gods
How would sacrificing a human appease their gods?
What and whom -- humans to gods.
I thought it was only first-born children who were being sacrificed…? And who was doing the sacrificing?
So, if god thought human sacrifices were an abomination and as you say, "god never wanted human sacrifices", then how come he conceived a plan for restoration, that included the human sacrifice of his son, as a sin offering?
Answered already. Go back and read my posts.
Jesus sacrificed himself because god willed it, just like the virgin who agreed to sacrifice herself to appease her god. Both morally repugnant.
And what exactly is morally repugnant about a man offering his life in order to save mankind?
Did God stomp out the free-will of the Israelites? - Yes.
So the Israelites were never able to disobey God?
Just like if I came to your house, pointed a gun to your head and said, "here are my rules, this is how it's going to work from now on". You must follow my rules or I will intimidate and threaten.
Lol Right. And if I carried on with my daily chores (doing the laundry, cooking some dinner, going out to the movies, chatting on the phone with my parents) while you had a gun pointed at my head “intimidating and threatening”, have you really "stomped out my free will"?
I am perfectly calm and definitely not angry. Just because I use vulgar language does not mean I am angry.
Then it means your command of the English language is severely limited.
And gosh-g-wilikers, I choose life -- with no strings attached, right? Because it is just as simple as choosing life over death -- right? OK, then -- super simple -- I choose life. You're right it was so fucking simple, I said, I -- CHOOSE -- LIFE, and BAM!, I have eternal life -- glory.
Oops, I think you forgot something… If you want eternal life, you’re going to have “love the Lord your God and to keep his commands, laws, and regulations by walking in his ways. “ (Deut 30:16) It always helps if you read the verses. Still want eternal life?
Oh, good then we are in agreement, everything you say is bullshit and is not the truth.
I’ll take that as a resounding “No, I am unable.” ☺
Thu May 01, 10:03:00 AM 2008
Dave said...
Jason, let me rephrase some of my questions:
What is your purpose on this website? In other words, why do you take time out of your life to come to this blog and debate Christianity with non-believers? What are you hoping to accomplish?
Do you believe that non-Christians will attain salvation?
Do you believe non-Christadelphians will attain salvation?
And you ignored this one: I also suspect that you *have* been successful in converting a Christian or two into becoming Christadelphian. Have you?
And an add-on bonus question: Are you the “holder of the one and only truth”? If not, whom else holds it?
Thu May 01, 11:58:00 AM 2008
Jason said...
Dave,
I'm not hoping to accomplish anything other then engage in some interesting Bible discussions to pass the time.
Do you believe that non-Christians will attain salvation?
No.
Do you believe non-Christadelphians will attain salvation?
Yes.
And you ignored this one: I also suspect that you *have* been successful in converting a Christian or two into becoming Christadelphian. Have you?
Only by extension - it's a group effort thing.
And an add-on bonus question: Are you the “holder of the one and only truth”? If not, whom else holds it?
Trick question since the Bible holds the one and only truth.
Thu May 01, 12:42:00 PM 2008
sconnor said...
Jason said, How was a human sacrificed?
Your dumb-shit god -- the god who never wanted human sacrifices -- willed it and the obedient lap dog Jesus obeyed. Jesus a (human) was made flesh for god's plan (a sacrifice) for a restoration.
Jason making dumb points says, How would sacrificing a human appease their gods?
For whatever shit-brained superstition that got into their head; just like the shit-brained superstitious plan you fuck-knob god conceived of.
Jason trying to make a point says, I thought it was only first-born children who were being sacrificed…? And who was doing the sacrificing?
Point?
So, if god thought human sacrifices were an abomination and as you say, "god never wanted human sacrifices", then how come he conceived a plan for restoration, that included the human sacrifice of his son, as a sin offering?
Jason answers, Answered already. Go back and read my posts.
...And I went back and this is what you said,
The Jews did though, (sacrificing god's son) in the NT, and thank God He didn’t follow your logic and prevent the sacrifice.
So you freely admit it was a sacrifice. You even admit the Jews did it, even though you contradict yourself here,
when you said, Jesus offered himself up freely, he wasn’t sacrificed to God by the Jews.
You confuse easily don't you, fuck-head?
Jason asks, And what exactly is morally repugnant about a man offering his life in order to save mankind?
Because it's based on absurd superstitions. I know it's real hard, for your dumb-ass pea-brain, to wrap around this, but Jesus' sacrifice is exactly the same as a virgin sacrificing herself, so the volcano won't erupt, or Jews sacrificing a goat to rid their sin or a satanist sacrificing a baby so the anti-christ will come. None of it's REAL. SACRIFICES DON'T REALLY ACCOMPLISH ANYTHING. And because they are not REAL, people have died for NO REASON. You are living in a fucked-up delusional world of your own making.
Jason asks, So the Israelites were never able to disobey God?
It went in waves -- the peoples free will was broken then generations went by, they did their own thing then god swooped back in and intimidated, threatened, caused suffering, death and destruction and zapped the free will out of them again. God's plan is fucked-up; it never works. Who wants their free will suppressed? The people decided to rise up to the demented, screwed-up, Hitler-god.
Jason giggles like a little schoolgirl and says, Lol Right. And if I carried on with my daily chores (doing the laundry, cooking some dinner, going out to the movies, chatting on the phone with my parents) while you had a gun pointed at my head “intimidating and threatening”, have you really "stomped out my free will"?
It depends on what my rules and laws were. You see, free will, means just that -- you are free to do as you please. Even if one thing is restricted, like me restricting certain dietary wants, then it is not free will -- is it?
Jason make a lame observation and says, Then it means your command of the English language is severely limited.
Absolutely not; to the contrary. By adding profanity to my arsenal of words I can weave an unlimited and vast, matrix of syntax. And I'm still not angry -- dip-shit.
Jason, being the delusional, Juggernaut that he is said, Oops, I think you forgot something… If you want eternal life, you’re going to have “love the Lord your God and to keep his commands, laws, and regulations by walking in his ways. “ (Deut 30:16) It always helps if you read the verses
You mother-fucking, lying sack of shit. You said it was just as simple as choosing life or choosing death. What the fuck, is it, to "walk in his ways"? I bet there is a shit pile of strings attached to this one.
Do I have to believe in every word in the Bible? Do I have to read the Bible everyday? Do I have to repent? Do I have to be baptized? Is it OK that I was baptized as a baby? Man I thought you said this was simple.
Oh, good then we are in agreement, everything you say is bullshit and is not the truth.
Jason not fully being able to commit to his delusions of grandeur, says, I’ll take that as a resounding “No, I am unable."
Oh, but I am able. Either you believe the bullshit you vomit up, as truth or you are just vomiting, complete bullshit, that has zero validity. Evidently, you hold a belief on how to obtain eternal life -- is that belief the one and only truth?
--S.
YOU GOT NOTHING, but the sound of an empty rocking chair.
Fri May 02, 09:23:00 PM 2008
Jason said...
Jason said, How was a human sacrificed? - Your dumb-shit god -- the god who never wanted human sacrifices -- willed it and the obedient lap dog Jesus obeyed. Jesus a (human) was made flesh for god's plan (a sacrifice) for a restoration.
You’re obviously not understanding the question. In the OLD TESTAMENT, how was a human sacrificed?
Jason trying to make a point says, I thought it was only first-born children who were being sacrificed…? And who was doing the sacrificing? - Point?
Answer the question and I’ll explain it to you.
So you freely admit it was a sacrifice. You even admit the Jews did it, even though you contradict yourself here,
Nope. According to you human sacrifices in the OT consisted of parents killing their child and burning him. Did Jesus’ parents kill him and then burn him? The difference with Christ was he offered up his life and in so doing, the Jews sacrificed him to the Romans. See how that works? No parents, no fire, no altar - thus not a human sacrifice by the Bible's definition.
Jason asks, And what exactly is morally repugnant about a man offering his life in order to save mankind?- Because it's based on absurd superstitions.
Absurd superstitions aren’t morally repugnant. I’ll have to assume you’re not really sure why it’s morally repugnant.
Jason asks, So the Israelites were never able to disobey God? - It went in waves...
According to you though, the Israelites shouldn’t have had freewill since “free will does not exist when someone holds the "proverbial gun", to your head, with the threat of torture, suffering, and death.” Now you’re saying it went in waves…? Time to get your story straight.
It depends on what my rules and laws were. You see, free will, means just that -- you are free to do as you please. Even if one thing is restricted, like me restricting certain dietary wants, then it is not free will -- is it?
Huh? We’re talking about choosing life and death, not what’s on the dinner menu. You said “free will does not exist when someone holds the "proverbial gun", to your head, with the threat of torture, suffering, and death.” This means people AREN’T free to do as they please. Now you say they are. Get it straight.
You mother-fucking, lying sack of shit. You said it was just as simple as choosing life or choosing death. What the fuck, is it, to "walk in his ways"? I bet there is a shit pile of strings attached to this one.
You atheists are so eloquent in your speech. You're a real intelligent bunch. Anyhow, yes, the “choosing” part means you’re “choosing” to walk in his ways. This is too tough for you, apparently. As is reading the verses that talk about what it means to “choose God”.
Do I have to believe in every word in the Bible? Do I have to read the Bible everyday? Do I have to repent? Do I have to be baptized? Is it OK that I was baptized as a baby? Man I thought you said this was simple.
Man, you don’t think all of that is simple?? Ouch.
Mon May 05, 08:12:00 PM 2008
Dave said...
Jason said, “You atheists are so eloquent in your speech. You're a real intelligent bunch.”
First of all Jason, don’t judge all atheists based on the words that sconner chooses. Besides, based on clarity of thought, he has you beat hands down.
Second, studies have shown repeatedly that the intelligence level of non-believers is consistently higher than believers. Here’s one source: http://hypnosis.home.netcom.com/iq_vs_religiosity.htm
Sorry Dude.
Tue May 06, 09:23:00 AM 2008
sconnor said...
Jason,
Jason playing stupid, dumb-ass, little games, says, You’re obviously not understanding the question. In the OLD TESTAMENT, how was a human sacrificed?
Answer the question and I’ll explain it to you.
Just make your fucking point, already, you little pussy.
So you freely admit it was a sacrifice. You even admit the Jews did it, even though you contradict yourself here,
Jason the dope said, Nope.
No? You didn't say, The Jews did though, (sacrificing god's son) in the NT, and thank God He didn’t follow your logic and prevent the SACRIFICE.
You admit it was a sacrifice and now you try to weasel your way out of it by saying it is not the Bibles definition.
What your diseased, fucked-up, shit for brains, mind can't possibly grasp, is it doesn't matter who is sacrificed, or who is doing the sacrificing, or how they sacrifice the person, or who or what, the person is being sacrificed to or for -- it's all appalling and atrocious, but yet you have to jump through hoops, bend and contort and bang as hard as you can, to fit that square peg into that round hole, so it can fit your warped, fucked-up, world-view.
It is morally repugnant to sacrifice humans, for absurd superstitions, religious laws, and especially, for the ridiculous notion of a supernatural restoration. You are a complete fucking idiot, dumb-ass, for believing in such demented, nonsense. You are exactly like the ignorant, uneducated, superstitious, primitive, ancient cultures who thought because of the virgin being sacrificed they would be SAVED from the volcano. You are only worthy of ridicule and berating and believe me, from the bottom of my heart, I thank you for allowing me to bitch-slap you, time after time, you blithering, delusional jackass.
Man, what the fuck would you do if you couldn't get your answers from your imaginary book of answers?
Sing with me, now:
Fairy tales, can come true, they can happen to you, if your delusional at heart.
Jason, like the dildo that he is, said, Absurd superstitions aren’t morally repugnant. I’ll have to assume you’re not really sure why it’s morally repugnant.
Making more assumptions, kind of like assuming the Bible is the word of god and it is the one and only truth. You sure are good and making assumptions.
Absurd superstitions aren't morally repugnant, dumb ass; it's ones actions, based on those absurd superstitions, that are morally reprehensible. Jehovah Witnesses (which you have a lot in common with) believe in the silly superstition that one should not eat blood. What makes it morally repugnant is they withhold blood transfusions, that can save a persons life. Some jerk-wad parents believe in the silly superstition of prayer, but what makes it disturbing and morally abhorrent, is when they pray over the sick child, who dies, because they did not seek medical help. The insane, preposterous, silly, superstitious, concept of a sacrifice, supernaturally changing the laws of nature, isn't morally repugnant. Stupid, asinine, and fucked-up -- sure, but when humans are sacrificed it automatically catapults itself into the morally insane and repulsive.
Jason, who probably hasn't taken his medication said, According to you though, the Israelites shouldn’t have had freewill since “free will does not exist when someone holds the "proverbial gun", to your head, with the threat of torture, suffering, and death.” Now you’re saying it went in waves…? Time to get your story straight.
Story's straight; it's the one reading it, who is cock-eyed and fucked in the head. Just like if I became lax at holding the gun to your head, allowing you to dine on only pig balls and urine (the holy dietary laws I gave you) and went to the other room to take a little break and you went to the fridge and gorged on the unholy sub sandwich and chips. Then when I came back and saw what you had done, I decided to put you right back in your place, by putting a blow torch to your wife's face. Back to the pig's balls and urine for you. I have you under my control -- control through fear and intimidation. No free will.
Jason, confusedly says, Huh? We’re talking about choosing life and death, not what’s on the dinner menu. You said “free will does not exist when someone holds the "proverbial gun", to your head, with the threat of torture, suffering, and death.” This means people AREN’T free to do as they please. Now you say they are. Get it straight.
Again, it's straight. The one reading it, is confused. If I hold the "proverbial gun" to your head and make you obey the laws I decreed (dietary or otherwise) then you have NO FREE WILL.
If I hold the "proverbial gun" to your head and tell you to choose me, obey me, and worship me and if you don't I'll intimidate, threaten, torture, cause suffering, destruction and death, threatening to take away your imagined, not seen reward, then you, also, DO NOT HAVE FREE WILL.
I know, Jason, it's hard for you to hold two concepts, at the same time, in your delusional, easily confused, meat-head.
You mother-fucking, lying sack of shit. You said it was just as simple as choosing life or choosing death. What the fuck, is it, to "walk in his ways"? I bet there is a shit pile of strings attached to this one.
Jason sarcastically gives me accolades, says,You atheists are so eloquent in your speech. You're a real intelligent bunch.
Thank you.
And you are still a stupid, delusional, mother-fucking, lying piece of shit, who believes in superstitious bullshit, only worthy of mockery and lambasting. You're the imbecilic equivalent to the people who rub Buddhas belly, pray to a wailing wall, perform the five pillars of Islam, perform rain dances, dance with snakes and drink poison, flog themselves, sacrifice animals, cause sexual mutilation, rub rabbits feet, collect four leaf clovers, and on and on and on. You are just as deluded and fucked in the head as these delusional, superstitious, people.
Anyhow, yes, the “choosing” part means you’re “choosing” to walk in his ways. This is too tough for you, apparently. As is reading the verses that talk about what it means to “choose God”.
And what god would that be? Who's shoes must I walk in? Oh your god, that's right. Jason Christian knows the one and only truth, because he thinks the Bible is the one and only truth. It's a good thing your god made you a red-blooded, Canadian, Christian or a Christadelphian -- you really lucked out and weren't born in Iran, Israel, China, or in some other time or civilization.
And choosing your megalomaniac god is definitely not a tough choice, in fact, as I have stated over and over, it's no choice at all.
Jason, thinking in simplistic terms, as usual, says, Man, you don’t think all of that is simple?? Ouch.
What's the matter, is the self-flogging starting to hurt?
The key words are, "ALL OF THAT", as contrasted to you saying, it's just as simple as choosing life or death.
If it is so damned important to make a choice about god and to know all his crucial laws, commandments, messages and it is so very important to know exactly what to do (like all your very specific Christadelphian criteria) to obtain eternal salvation, then why did that dumb ass god, of yours, put, in a book, all that convoluted, information, in the form of songs, poems, parables, symbols, dream imagery, and translated from difficult ancient texts, that could be so easily misinterpreted, perverted or interpreted in so many different ways?
If the Bible, indeed, holds the one and only truth, then why did your asshole god decide to put it into a book that couldn't possibly get to the masses, to deliver his all important messages?
If the Bible is so important and the source for the one and only truth, how come only 30% of the world's population is Christian, while the other 70% of the world's population is another non-biblical, religion or non-religious? And how come out of the 30% Christian population there are thousands and thousands of sects and denominations who all have varying and vast ideas and interpretations about the Bible? Your fuck-wad, dumb-ass god is doing a real, shitty, job getting his all important (evidently, rightly, interpreted by you) message to his earthly children.
And lastly, why did god bestow upon you and your small, insignificant, specific, Christian cult, the one and only CORRECT INTERPRETATION that only you, little Jason Christian and the Christadelphian drones could decipher?
You're a delusional, asshole, who's got nothing but an illusion.
You must have stock in General Mills, because you are cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs!
--S.
Tue May 06, 11:17:00 PM 2008
Jason said...
Just make your fucking point, already, you little pussy.
lol You're too funny. My point is that firstly, human sacrifices in the OT were only carried out by parents, and secondly, every single victim of human sacrifice was a child. Christ’s parents didn’t kill him and he certainly wasn’t a child.
You admit it was a sacrifice and now you try to weasel your way out of it by saying it is not the Bibles definition.
That’s right. I have no problem admitting it was a sacrifice, what I’m disagreeing is that it was a human sacrifice as defined in the OT which so disgusted God. This whole discussion is in response to your erroneous claim that “he thinks it's OK to commit murder by allowing unacceptable, first born sons to be sacrificed, to him, so he can horrify the people.” I've since shown this to be incorrect.
In Christ's case, he was asked by God to lay down his life. If somebody else took his life from him, it wouldn't ‘count’. Read John 10:15, 17; John 15:13; 1 John 3:16. This is why, among other reasons, this instance of sacrifice isn’t comparable to the events in the OT.
It is morally repugnant to sacrifice humans, for absurd superstitions, religious laws, and especially, for the ridiculous notion of a supernatural restoration.
But it’s not morally repugnant to lay down your life for your friends (John 15:13).
Absurd superstitions aren't morally repugnant, dumb ass; it's ones actions, based on those absurd superstitions, that are morally reprehensible.
Why would the actions of one person, doing something he thought was right, that is laying down his life for his friends, be morally reprehensible when the only one affected is actually himself?
Jehovah Witnesses (which you have a lot in common with) believe in the silly superstition that one should not eat blood. What makes it morally repugnant is they withhold blood transfusions, that can save a persons life.
What does this have to do with Jesus dying?
Some jerk-wad parents believe in the silly superstition of prayer, but what makes it disturbing and morally abhorrent, is when they pray over the sick child, who dies, because they did not seek medical help. The insane, preposterous, silly, superstitious, concept of a sacrifice, supernaturally changing the laws of nature, isn't morally repugnant. Stupid, asinine, and fucked-up -- sure, but when humans are sacrificed it automatically catapults itself into the morally insane and repulsive.
If someone jumped on a grenade to save the lives of their friends, do you find this morally insane and repulsive?
Story's straight; it's the one reading it, who is cock-eyed and fucked in the head. Just like if I became lax at holding the gun to your head, allowing you to dine on only pig balls and urine (the holy dietary laws I gave you) and went to the other room to take a little break and you went to the fridge and gorged on the unholy sub sandwich and chips.
So freewill does exist. Great. Therefore, my original point remains: God promised blessings if the Israelites followed him. God promised punishment if they didn’t. Sometimes they followed Him, sometimes they didn’t, and the outcome was what God promised in both instances. It’s no different for people today.
Then when I came back and saw what you had done, I decided to put you right back in your place, by putting a blow torch to your wife's face. Back to the pig's balls and urine for you. I have you under my control -- control through fear and intimidation. No free will.
And how exactly does this relate to mankind choosing between life and death? I don’t see anyone eating pig balls and urine and I certainly don’t see God blowtorching someone’s partner to force them into making a decision.
Again, it's straight. The one reading it, is confused. If I hold the "proverbial gun" to your head and make you obey the laws I decreed (dietary or otherwise) then you have NO FREE WILL.
God didn’t, and doesn’t, force anyone to obey the laws He decreed. There are dozens and dozens of examples of people who broke God’s laws in the OT.
If I hold the "proverbial gun" to your head and tell you to choose me, obey me, and worship me and if you don't I'll intimidate, threaten, torture, cause suffering, destruction and death, threatening to take away your imagined, not seen reward, then you, also, DO NOT HAVE FREE WILL.
Wrong, as is clearly evident by the number of people in the Bible who chose, quite voluntarily, to disobey God.
And what god would that be? Who's shoes must I walk in? Oh your god, that's right.
The God of the Bible is the topic of conversation. Are you confused about who we're talking about...?
It's a good thing your god made you a red-blooded, Canadian, Christian or a Christadelphian -- you really lucked out and weren't born in Iran, Israel, China, or in some other time or civilization.
No kidding!
The key words are, "ALL OF THAT", as contrasted to you saying, it's just as simple as choosing life or death.
And “choosing God” consists of “all of that”. Do you find this confusing? Perhaps you find baptism and prayer difficult…?
If it is so damned important to make a choice about god and to know all his crucial laws, commandments, messages and it is so very important to know exactly what to do (like all your very specific Christadelphian criteria) to obtain eternal salvation, then why did that dumb ass god, of yours, put, in a book, all that convoluted, information, in the form of songs, poems, parables, symbols, dream imagery, and translated from difficult ancient texts, that could be so easily misinterpreted, perverted or interpreted in so many different ways?
God says Adam and Eve ate a “fruit” in the Garden of Eden. People state they ate an apple. Whose fault is this ‘misinterpretation’: God or man?
If the Bible, indeed, holds the one and only truth, then why did your asshole god decide to put it into a book that couldn't possibly get to the masses, to deliver his all important messages?
Good thing God invented mouths, feet and the internet!! Otherwise the book would never make it to the masses!!
If the Bible is so important and the source for the one and only truth, how come only 30% of the world's population is Christian, while the other 70% of the world's population is another non-biblical, religion or non-religious?
Go ask the 70%.
And how come out of the 30% Christian population there are thousands and thousands of sects and denominations who all have varying and vast ideas and interpretations about the Bible? Your fuck-wad, dumb-ass god is doing a real, shitty, job getting his all important (evidently, rightly, interpreted by you) message to his earthly children.
Oh, God got it right, don’t you worry about that. It’s man who screws thing up – you’re a prime example.
And lastly, why did god bestow upon you and your small, insignificant, specific, Christian cult, the one and only CORRECT INTERPRETATION that only you, little Jason Christian and the Christadelphian drones could decipher?
You’ll be relieved to know there are plenty of non-Christadelphians who have the correct interpretations as well.
Wed May 07, 01:31:00 PM 2008
sconnor said...
Jason,
Jason having inappropriate psychotic, bursts of laughter said, lol You're too funny. My point is that firstly, human sacrifices in the OT were only carried out by parents,
And my point is, you are a dumb-fuck drone, that can't make decisions, on his own, without consulting the reputed Bible, that only has authority in your delusional, slush-skull.
Throughout history, in many civilizations and cultures, human sacrifices (babies, children, and adults) took place; do you find those morally repugnant or only the child part? Or can't you make a decision without using your fairytale, Bible, that has only an illusion of authority, you delusionally, deem viable ?
Jason jumping to conclusions, says, every single victim of human sacrifice was a child. Christ’s parents didn’t kill him and he certainly wasn’t a child.
Are you suggesting that god finds adult human sacrifices acceptable?
Are you suggesting god finds child sacrifice acceptable, if it wasn't done by the parents?
Is it your argument that god only finds child sacrifice perpetrated by parents, the only unacceptable form of sacrifice?
Saying every single victim was a child, would be true, if it said "children" were sacrificed but it isn't that clear. It says first born or sons and daughters. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Jesus a first born son who was sacrificed? He was first born, he was a son and he was sacrificed.
Also pagan priests did some of the sacrificing while the parents thought it was the right thing to do. Just like god did when he came up with his plan for restoration, letting his first born son to be sacrificed.
Jason admits, That’s right. I have no problem admitting it was a sacrifice,
Good. And Jesus was human. You said and I'm quoting, "god never wanted human sacrifices". Then why did god use a human sacrifice as a tool for restoration?
How do you reconcile this verse:
Heb 10:8 After saying above, "SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS AND WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND FOR SIN YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, NOR HAVE YOU TAKEN PLEASURE
God does not desire ANY sacrifices. Nor does he desire sacrifices for sin. How can this be if he is using sacrifice for sin atonement, through the sacrifice of his son?
How come Jesus sacrificed himself to god if god did not desire sacrifices nor desired sin sacrifices?
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God,
Jason makes another extraneous argument, This whole discussion is in response to your erroneous claim that “he thinks it's OK to commit murder by allowing unacceptable, first born sons to be sacrificed, to him, so he can horrify the people.” I've since shown this to be incorrect.
Not really. Actually this discussion has morphed a couple of times and now, we are discussing if god finds HUMAN SACRIFICE unacceptable, not just children sacrificed by parents.
Do try and keep up -- I know you are slow.
Jason said, In Christ's case, he was asked by God to lay down his life. If somebody else took his life from him, it wouldn't ‘count’.
Really? Then Jesus committed suicide? Or did the Romans beat him within an inch of his life, crucified him and then shoved a spear in him, causing his death? If the Romans didn't do that then he wouldn't have died, which means somebody took his life. Again painting yourself into corners.
Jason grasping for straws says, This is why, among other reasons, this instance of sacrifice isn’t comparable to the events in the OT.
Yet it is a sacrifice, used by your asshole, god, who had deemed sacrifice to be unacceptable; who deemed sin sacrifices unacceptable. God willed him into sacrifice.
It is morally repugnant to sacrifice humans, for absurd superstitions, religious laws, and especially, for the ridiculous notion of a supernatural restoration.
Jason desperately tries to make yet another lame argument and says, But it’s not morally repugnant to lay down your life for your friends (John 15:13).
It's morally repugnant, when it is for an ignorant superstition, that has no basis in reality, even if it was "for friends". sacrificing a goat to remove sin doesn't really work and comes from primitive, superstitious, thinking. Jesus is the goat. Nothing really happened and you're the ignorant, dumb-ass, who uses his primitive, superstitious thinking, to believe in such insane, nonsense.
Jason jumping through hoops, making futile arguments, says, Why would the actions of one person, doing something he thought was right, that is laying down his life for his friends, be morally reprehensible when the only one affected is actually himself?
Because people throughout history have "laid down their lives" (sacrificed themselves to the volcano gods, for a better harvest, to appease gods, sin offerings) to help "their friends", for completely, absurd, superstitious, reasons and unlike your pussy savior, they were not resurrected, three days later. They lost their lives, forever, for idiotic, wholly irrational beliefs -- morally reprehensible.
Jehovah Witnesses (which you have a lot in common with) believe in the silly superstition that one should not eat blood. What makes it morally repugnant is they withhold blood transfusions, that can save a persons life.
Jason not having any comprehension skills, says, What does this have to do with Jesus dying?
Again, you have a difficult time holding concepts, in your head. This was one example of several, where people are morally reprehensible when their actions are influenced by absurd, irrational, primitive superstitions -- just like people sacrificing themselves for stupid superstitions, not based in reality, losing their lives while accomplishing nothing, exactly like Jesus dying.
Jason trying to make an inaccurate analogy says, If someone jumped on a grenade to save the lives of their friends, do you find this morally insane and repulsive?
No, but then again Jesus didn't jump on a grenade to save people. He was a goat surrogate and was sacrificed to "MAGICALLY" save the world, just like the virgin, who sacrificed herself, to "magically" save the village, from the volcano -- hocus-pocus bullshit -- it's not real. Also, one of the commanding officers didn't ask him or will him to jump on the grenade like your pussy, coward god did, by willing Jesus, to lay down his life. It's morally repulsive and cowardice, to ask or will someone to lay down their life, especially, for irrational, superstitious beliefs.
Jason jumping to asinine conclusions says, So freewill does exist. Great.
Yes in your delusional, fucked-up head. If you are forced to do anything, then you do not have free will. Just because you escaped for the moment you had the illusion of free will and then, BAM, I just threatened you and forced my will on you again, completely negating your free will.
Jason completely confused again says, And how exactly does this relate to mankind choosing between life and death?
Here we go again, you just can't hold two concepts in your, easily, confused, fucked-up head, at the same time.
1. Concept one: If one is controlled by force or threat of force then one does not have free will.
2. Concept two: If one forces someone to choose them by force or threat of force then one does not have free will.
Jason not understanding the hyperbolic, analogy says, I don’t see anyone eating pig balls and urine and I certainly don’t see God blow torching someone’s partner to force them into making a decision.
Yet, god forced people into making decisions all the time with cruel and unusual punishments. You've seen the lists.
Jason making up lies again says, God didn’t, and doesn’t, force anyone to obey the laws He decreed.
Anyone? Does this ring a bell? "Let my people go, OR I'LL..."
And anytime god smites someone, he does so, to instill fear, in them. He forces people to obey through fear. A truly, VILE way to control a people.
Jason definitively says, Wrong, as is clearly evident by the number of people in the Bible who chose, quite voluntarily, to disobey God.
Good for them. Who wants to be CONTROLLED by a fear mongering, baby killer?
But just when you thought they really had free will, god swooped in and caused mass genocide, disease, and destruction, again, to keep them in line -- NO FREE WILL, AGAIN.
I said, And what god would that be? Who's shoes must I walk in? Oh your god, that's right.
Jason trying his hand at being condescending and completely failing, says, The God of the Bible is the topic of conversation. Are you confused about who we're talking about...?
No, but evidently you are confused and can't read. I answered my own question, fuck-head, to make the point, that you're a delusional, arrogant, little fuck, that thinks his fairytale religion is genuine. Read it again dumb-shit. Maybe now it will sink in;
And what god would that be? Who's shoes must I walk in? Oh your god, that's right. Jason Christian knows the one and only truth, because he thinks the Bible is the one and only truth.
It's a good thing your god made you a red-blooded, Canadian, Christian or a Christadelphian -- you really lucked out and weren't born in Iran, Israel, China, or in some other time or civilization.
Jason not being able to understand the ramifications of the comment said, No kidding!
Little Jason Xtianadelphian wallowing in his own delusion that he and his xtian ilk will be restored, living in the land of bliss, for all of eternity, while the other 99.999999999% of the worlds population goes into oblivion.
ALLLLLLL ABOARRRRRRD!!!!!!! HOP ON THE CRAZY TRAIN TO DELUSION-VILLE!
The key words are, "ALL OF THAT", as contrasted to you saying, it's just as simple as choosing life or death.
Jason still making condescending attempts but still failing miserably, says, And “choosing God” consists of “all of that”. Do you find this confusing? Perhaps you find baptism and prayer difficult…?
What's confusing is, you said, it was as simple as choosing life or death, now it's a laundry list of, "ALL OF THATS". And I'm sure there are more strings attached as well, that you still haven't added.
I asked a germane question, If it is so damned important to make a choice about god and to know all his crucial laws, commandments, messages and it is so very important to know exactly what to do (like all your very specific Christadelphian criteria) to obtain eternal salvation, then why did that dumb ass god, of yours, put, in a book, all that convoluted, information, in the form of songs, poems, parables, symbols, dream imagery, and translated from difficult ancient texts, that could be so easily misinterpreted, perverted or interpreted in so many different ways?
Jason being the simpleton that he is said, God says Adam and Eve ate a “fruit” in the Garden of Eden. People state they ate an apple. Whose fault is this ‘misinterpretation’: God or man?
God's, because he should have known better, ass wipe. Being the all-knowing, creator god, you would think he would know how people can err and make multitudes of mistakes. Just because you pick a simple (being the simple minded jack-ass that you are) misinterpretation doesn't mean that there are not thousands of complex interpretations that have been debated for centuries, you fucking asshole. The Bible is still a miss-mash of vague, metaphorical, time and culturally biased, not to be taken literal or to be taken literal (depending how you look at it), easily misinterpreted, ancient texts.
Even your dumb-ass cult has splintered into other sects, with different interpretations. God's shitty plan in it's full glory -- hallelujah.
Asking another germane question I asked, If the Bible, indeed, holds the one and only truth, then why did your asshole god decide to put it into a book that couldn't possibly get to the masses, to deliver his all important messages?
Jason giving a wholly, inadequate answer said, Good thing God invented mouths, feet and the internet!! Otherwise the book would never make it to the masses!!
Yeah so far god's shitty plan of mouths and feet has sucked ass. And with the Internet, more and more people are coming to the same conclusion -- that the Bible is a fucked-up fairytale, that ignorant dumb-asses like yourself base a religion on.
Asking yet, another germane question, If the Bible is so important and the source for the one and only truth, how come only 30% of the world's population is Christian, while the other 70% of the world's population is another non-biblical, religion or non-religious?
Unable to answer, Jason, feebly says, Go ask the 70%.
Of course you don't have an answer -- you are a delusional fuck-head.
And one more germane question, And how come out of the 30% Christian population there are thousands and thousands of sects and denominations who all have varying and vast ideas and interpretations about the Bible? Your fuck-wad, dumb-ass god is doing a real, shitty, job getting his all important (evidently, rightly, interpreted by you) message to his earthly children.
Delusional Jason, knowing what god's got, says, Oh, God got it right, don’t you worry about that. It’s man who screws thing up – you’re a prime example.
How come your shit-for-brains god didn't take that into account, asshole? That's the whole point of the question. And how do you know you're not the one screwing it up?
One more...And lastly, why did god bestow upon you and your small, insignificant, specific, Christian cult, the one and only CORRECT INTERPRETATION that only you, little Jason Adelphian and the Christadelphian drones could decipher?
Jason, being the deluded asshole that he is, "knowing" what god wants and now, after exhaustive, research and amassing vast, amounts of statistics "knows" "plenty" of Non-Adelphians have the correct interpretation says, You’ll be relieved to know there are plenty of non-Christadelphians who have the correct interpretations as well.
Which, by even, conservative estimates, makes you and other non-Christadelphians combined, less then ONE PERCENT of the entire world population. God sure has a fucked up plan for restoration.
Face it Jason, you are an ignorant, mindless, fucked-up drone, asshole, that can't make a decision on his own without credulously, consulting the make-believe, spurious, Bible that is your delusional, diseased, surrogate brain.
Here comes your choo-choo to DELUSION-VILLE.
--S.
Sun May 11, 12:42:00 AM 2008
Jason said...
And my point is, you are a dumb-fuck drone, that can't make decisions, on his own, without consulting the reputed Bible, that only has authority in your delusional, slush-skull.
Considering your claim that the God of the Bible accepts human sacrifices, I’m not sure why you’d be surprised I’m consulting anything but the Bible. My point remains: human sacrifices in the OT were only carried out by parents, Jesus’ parents didn’t kill him.
Throughout history, in many civilizations and cultures, human sacrifices (babies, children, and adults) took place; do you find those morally repugnant or only the child part? Or can't you make a decision without using your fairytale, Bible, that has only an illusion of authority, you delusionally, deem viable ?
I consider them all to be morally repugnant. Christ’s sacrifice, I don’t. His death and resurrection atoned for the sins of mankind and has since offered billions of people the chance of eternal life. This act of selflessness isn’t morally repugnant.
Are you suggesting that god finds adult human sacrifices acceptable?
Did God ask anyone other then Christ to sacrifice himself to atone for the sins of mankind?
Are you suggesting god finds child sacrifice acceptable, if it wasn't done by the parents? Is it your argument that god only finds child sacrifice perpetrated by parents, the only unacceptable form of sacrifice?
Are there any examples in Scripture of God telling the Israelites He would accept a child killing himself or an actual example of this occurring? Are there any examples of God telling the Israelites He would accept any old sacrifice of human flesh? My point, again, is that I have no problem admitting Christ’s death was a sacrifice, what I’m disagreeing is that it was a human sacrifice as defined in the OT which so disgusted God.
Saying every single victim was a child, would be true, if it said "children" were sacrificed but it isn't that clear. It says first born or sons and daughters. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Jesus a first born son who was sacrificed? He was first born, he was a son and he was sacrificed. Also pagan priests did some of the sacrificing while the parents thought it was the right thing to do. Just like god did when he came up with his plan for restoration, letting his first born son to be sacrificed.
Jesus was the firstborn son, but he wasn’t sacrificed to God by his parents. And even if he was, the only instances of human sacrifices in the OT were done to Molech, not God. And even then, how many of the humans offered up were sinless or sent by God to atone for the sins of mankind? Needless to say, Jesus saw no contradiction in voluntarily dying for His friends - as obvious from these passages that portray His death as voluntary:
• John 10.11: "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
• John 10.15: just as the Father knows me and I know the Father - and I lay down my life for the sheep.
• John 10.17: The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life -- only to take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.
This self-giving is linked to the sacrificial ritual explained in Hebrews 7.27 and Hebrews 9:14.
Good. And Jesus was human. You said and I'm quoting, "god never wanted human sacrifices". Then why did god use a human sacrifice as a tool for restoration?
In the OT, it was the shedding of blood of the sacrificial animals that saved. With Christ, it was the shedding of blood from a perfect, sinless sacrifice that saved mankind. God never, and has never, demanded that anyone sacrifice themselves in the same manner because no one was able to duplicate what Christ accomplished – namely leading a sinless life.
The idea that Christ was a human sacrifice falls down logically, in any case. It was God Himself who provided Christ, and we can't say that it was a human sacrifice to God if He provided the sacrifice. You can't make a sacrifice to yourself. This is why the verses above (John 10, et al) make sense – Christ offered himself.
How do you reconcile this verse: Heb 10:8 - God does not desire ANY sacrifices. Nor does he desire sacrifices for sin. How can this be if he is using sacrifice for sin atonement, through the sacrifice of his son? How come Jesus sacrificed himself to god if god did not desire sacrifices nor desired sin sacrifices?
Read the verses: “Previously saying, "Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them" (which are offered according to the law), 9 then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”
The sacrifices God didn’t desire or had pleasure in were offered “according to the law”, as the verse clearly explains. With Christ, God took away the old law (the first) in order to establish the new law (the second). This is why Christ was able to atone for the sins of mankind – he offered his body according to the will of God and we have been sanctified through it forever. No more sacrifices are needed.
Not really. Actually this discussion has morphed a couple of times and now, we are discussing if god finds HUMAN SACRIFICE unacceptable, not just children sacrificed by parents.
The only sacrifice God has found acceptable has been the self-sacrifice of a perfect, sinless man, namely the Son of God who was sent to do the will of God. Can anyone else in Scripture make the same claim? If not, then this is why God finds human sacrifice unacceptable.
Really? Then Jesus committed suicide? Or did the Romans beat him within an inch of his life, crucified him and then shoved a spear in him, causing his death? If the Romans didn't do that then he wouldn't have died, which means somebody took his life. Again painting yourself into corners.
What are you arguing? God asked Christ to lay down his life. Prior to his crucifixion, Jesus could have called upon twelve legions of angels to help him (Mat 26:53), he knew exactly who was going to betray him and when and where. After all was said and done though, “No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord.”
Yet it is a sacrifice, used by your asshole, god, who had deemed sacrifice to be unacceptable; who deemed sin sacrifices unacceptable. God willed him into sacrifice.
God didn’t deem sin sacrifices unacceptable. Perhaps you’ve never heard of a “sin offering”…? If not, read Leviticus 4. Yes it was God’s will that Jesus would shed his blood for the remission of sins, but as Christ clearly explains, laying down his life was still done on his “own accord”.
It's morally repugnant, when it is for an ignorant superstition, that has no basis in reality, even if it was "for friends". sacrificing a goat to remove sin doesn't really work and comes from primitive, superstitious, thinking. Jesus is the goat. Nothing really happened and you're the ignorant, dumb-ass, who uses his primitive, superstitious thinking, to believe in such insane, nonsense.
The Bible (the same book you’re using to argue your points) makes it quite clear what sin sacrifices accomplished. As for Jesus, he laid his life down for his friends of his own accord. If it didn’t work, as you claim, then the worst thing that happened is that one person died. If it did work, as the Bible claims, then millions of people have been saved.
Yes in your delusional, fucked-up head. If you are forced to do anything, then you do not have free will. Just because you escaped for the moment you had the illusion of free will and then, BAM, I just threatened you and forced my will on you again, completely negating your free will.
But you still haven’t proven that anyone, other then Pharaoh, was ever forced to do anything. The Israelites certainly weren’t forced to do anything – this can be seen by the number of times they voluntarily chose to ignore God’s commandments. Because they had the ability to choose, they had freewill. It’s a brutally simply argument.
Here we go again, you just can't hold two concepts in your, easily, confused, fucked-up head, at the same time.
1. Concept one: If one is controlled by force or threat of force then one does not have free will.
2. Concept two: If one forces someone to choose them by force or threat of force then one does not have free will.
Great. Therefore, mankind has free will. God explained the blessings and the cursings to the Israelites, and they made their own decision about which to follow. Likewise, God has explained the blessings and cursings to everyone else and we make our own decision about which to follow. It’s pretty straightforward.
Yet, god forced people into making decisions all the time with cruel and unusual punishments. You've seen the lists.
And you’ve read the stories about the Israelites turning their backs on God.
Jason making up lies again says, God didn’t, and doesn’t, force anyone to obey the laws He decreed. - Anyone? Does this ring a bell? "Let my people go, OR I'LL..."
This is God talking to Pharaoh – and we’ve already been through this. Once again, other then the one example we've already talked about, God doesn’t force anyone to obey the laws He decreed. Does this ring a bell? “But if you are unwilling to serve the Lord, then choose today whom you will serve. Would you prefer the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates? Or will it be the gods of the Amorites in whose land you now live? But as for me and my family, we will serve the Lord." (Jos 24:15)
And anytime god smites someone, he does so, to instill fear, in them. He forces people to obey through fear. A truly, VILE way to control a people.
God always explains the consequences of actions before He punishes. If people choose to disobey Him regardless, that’s their fault.
Jason definitively says, Wrong, as is clearly evident by the number of people in the Bible who chose, quite voluntarily, to disobey God. - Good for them. Who wants to be CONTROLLED by a fear mongering, baby killer?
Irrelevant. Read: People chose voluntarily to disobey God. Therefore, freewill exists.
But just when you thought they really had free will, god swooped in and caused mass genocide, disease, and destruction, again, to keep them in line -- NO FREE WILL, AGAIN.
Wrong. The ability to freely choose had already been exercised from the moment they decided to disobey God. Likewise: Because you’re a relatively intelligent human being, you know that murder is punishable by imprisonment. Nonetheless, on one fine Saturday morning, you walk next door and murder your neighbour. You’re arrested, go before a judge and are found guilty. You spend the rest of your life in prison. At what point was your free will removed: before or after the crime had been committed?
Tue May 13, 08:44:00 AM 2008
sconnor said...
Jason,
Jason being confused says, I’m not sure why you’d be surprised I’m consulting anything but the Bible.
I'm not surprised. You are a delusional, mother fucker, who believes in superstitious fairy tales and that can't reason with his own mind, using the bogus authority of the Bible as his own.
Anyone who conducts an argument appealing to authority is not using his intelligence; he is just using his memory. — Leonardo da Vinci
In a twisted and asinine bit of logic Jason says, I consider them all to be morally repugnant. Christ’s sacrifice, I don’t. His death and resurrection atoned for the sins of mankind and has since offered billions of people the chance of eternal life.
Yeah, prove it. All you have are ancient words, from a primitive, ancient, culture, that believed in such ignorant, fucked-up nonsense. How exactly does a sacrifice atone for the sins of mankind? Is it symbolic? Was it supernatural? Was your asshole god so unwise that he couldn't think of anything better, then to father a child, for the sole purpose of having his child suffer, by being scourged, beaten, crucified, as nothing more than a goat sin sacrifice? -- That in effect, accomplished nothing, except giving you the delusional, superstitious, notion that you are saved.
Are you suggesting that god finds adult human sacrifices acceptable?
Jason answers, Did God ask anyone other then Christ to sacrifice himself to atone for the sins of mankind?
So does god think adult sacrifices are acceptable?
You have to play tippy-toe don't you, you fucktard.
Are you suggesting god finds child sacrifice acceptable, if it wasn't done by the parents? Is it your argument that god only finds child sacrifice perpetrated by parents, the only unacceptable form of sacrifice?
Jason not being able to think on his own says, Are there any examples in Scripture of God telling the Israelites He would accept a child killing himself or an actual example of this occurring? Are there any examples of God telling the Israelites He would accept any old sacrifice of human flesh? My point, again, is that I have no problem admitting Christ’s death was a sacrifice, what I’m disagreeing is that it was a human sacrifice as defined in the OT which so disgusted God.
No, no, no, Jason you little fuck-drone. Without using the Bible (actually making up your own fucked-up mind, all by your little lonesome) can you answer these? And can you do so, without answering in the form of a question?
1. Does god find child sacrifice acceptable, if it wasn't done by parents?
2. Does god find child sacrifice acceptable, if it was offered to him?
3. Does god find adult sacrifice acceptable?
4. Does god find adult sacrifice, like that of a virgin, who willingly sacrificed herself, for the ignorant, superstitious, belief, that she was appeasing the volcano gods, acceptable?
Jason not being able to argue the point that the bible is not clear if it was children or not said, Jesus was the firstborn son, but he wasn’t sacrificed to God by his parents. And even if he was, the only instances of human sacrifices in the OT were done to Molech, not God.
1. Are you saying that because Jesus wasn't sacrificed by his parents then that is what makes it an acceptable sacrifice?
2. Are you saying christ being sacrificed was acceptable because it wasn't done to Molech?
And I noticed you conveniently did not address this verse. It clearly indicates that christ was offered to god, you dip-shit.
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God.
And also,
Heb 10:9 then He said, "BEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL." He takes away the first in order to establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
John 10:18 No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.
So let's see, scripturaly speaking god commanded, willed (didn't ask) Jesus to lay down his life to be sacrificed. Jesus gives up his life because god commanded it.
Is it morally repugnant for a father to command his son to be harmed, tortured and then crucified?
And isn't it even more vile that a father did so as a sacrifice to himself, like it says in Heb 9:14?
Jumping through more hoops and painfully twisting logic, Jason says, The idea that Christ was a human sacrifice falls down logically, in any case. It was God Himself who provided Christ, and we can't say that it was a human sacrifice to God if He provided the sacrifice. You can't make a sacrifice to yourself. This is why the verses above (John 10, et al) make sense – Christ offered himself.
And yet god did provide Jesus as a sacrifice that according to Heb 9:14 says he was offered to god. God commanded Jesus to offer himself willingly to god himself.
Jason believing in superstitious fairy tales, says, The sacrifices God didn’t desire or had pleasure in were offered “according to the law”, as the verse clearly explains. With Christ, God took away the old law (the first) in order to establish the new law (the second). This is why Christ was able to atone for the sins of mankind – he offered his body according to the will of God and we have been sanctified through it forever. No more sacrifices are needed.
And you gorge on this fucked-up twisted logic. God who handed down the law of how to give sacrifices that were acceptable to him and took pleasure in, now says, he did not desire them and furthermore he says that they never really worked, in the first place. Why did god show them how to make the proper alters and how to sacrifice animals in the right way, if it never really worked?
Then your asshole god -- who deems human sacrifice unacceptable -- decides to change the old law by commanding his son to lay down his life as a sin sacrifice, that now MAGICALLY brings forth a restoration. Point your fucking index finger toward your temple and make quick circling gestures -- cuckoo, cuckoo, cuckoo! This is not a wise diety; he is a complete fucking imbecile, that reeks of a painful human construct.
Jason like the myna bird he is says, The only sacrifice God has found acceptable has been the self-sacrifice of a perfect, sinless man, namely the Son of God who was sent to do the will of God. Can anyone else in Scripture make the same claim? If not, then this is why God finds human sacrifice unacceptable.
Thanks for sharing this massive contradiction. God deems human sacrifice an abomination but finds it perfectly acceptable when it's his own son who has to be tortured and crucified -- what an asshole father.
Jason not having a clue says, What are you arguing?
I'm arguing about what you said in this statement:
Jason said, In Christ's case, he was asked by God to lay down his life. If somebody else took his life from him, it wouldn't ‘count’.
So then god took Jesus' life? OK so let's get this straight god brought Jesus into this world for the sole purpose of having him sacrificed -- something god found unacceptable. God commanded that Jesus should lay down his life, be tortured, crucified and killed, to change a rule god made himself? What a fucked-up diety.
Jason thinking he is smart says, God didn’t deem sin sacrifices unacceptable. Perhaps you’ve never heard of a “sin offering”…?
Perhaps you don't remember this verse?
Hebrews 10:8 After saying above, "SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS AND WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND FOR SIN YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, NOR HAVE YOU TAKEN PLEASURE
Your stupid fuckin' god can't keep it straight, nor can you. God did NOT desire sacrifices and offerings for sin, which as you point out god did desire them. I don't know who is more inept you or your god?
Jason making a painfully delusional argument says, The Bible (the same book you’re using to argue your points) makes it quite clear what sin sacrifices accomplished.
Yeah, in your delusional, diseased brain. And let's get one thing straight you stupid ass, mother fucker, I do not use the Bible as an authoritative source; I'm just countering your lame-ass declarations, which are based on the assumption, that your fairytale book is viable. Only an ignorant, little fuck, like yourself, would think a book written by several different men from a primitive civilization and time, writing about their society in the context of their culture, would be a viable source of knowledge, that you have to painfully squeeze into our time and context.
Jason says, As for Jesus, he laid his life down for his friends of his own accord. If it didn’t work, as you claim, then the worst thing that happened is that one person died. If it did work, as the Bible claims, then millions of people have been saved.
You make the claim that it will have saved millions of people. I say I don't see it. PROVE IT.
And you are wrong, superstitious thought have killed millions. There were thousands of messiahs walking around and laying their lives down during Jesus' time for a myriad of absurd superstitions. You make the extraordinary claim, that Jesus laid down his life, to somehow magically, absolve our sins. The burden of proof is on you and if you can't prove this to be true, then you are nothing but a delusional, zealous, fuck-hole.
Jason making my point for me said, But you still haven’t proven that anyone, other then Pharaoh, was ever forced to do anything.
But you said, God didn’t, and doesn’t, FORCE ANYONE to obey the laws He decreed.
Do you remember, asshole? you said, ANYONE.
Aside from god forcing his will by threat, torture and death, here are some more ways god forced his will on people.
1. hardened Pharaohs heart (you knew this one already even though you said, god did NOT FORCE ANYONE).
2. Jer. 24:7 I will give them a heart to know Me, for I am the LORD; and they will be My people , and I will be their God, for they will return to Me with their whole heart.
3. John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless * the Father who sent Me draws ( metaphor, to draw by inward power, lead, impel him) and I will raise him up on the last day.
4. Ec. 7:14 In the day of prosperity be happy , But in the day of adversity consider-- God has made the one as well as the other So * that man will not discover anything after him.
5. John 12:40 "HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO * THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL
6. De 2:30 But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land; for the LORD your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order to deliver him into your hand, as today.
7. Jud 7:22 When they blew 300 * trumpets, the LORD set the sword of one against another even throughout the whole army; and the army fled as far as Beth-shittah toward Zererah, as far as the edge of Abel-meholah, by Tabbath
8. 2Th. 2:11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false
9. 2 Sam. 12:15 So Nathan went to his house. Then the LORD struck the child that Uriah's widow bore to David, so that he was sick. Baby sure as hell didn't do anything and didn't have a choice in the matter. God forced the baby to become sick and suffer for seven days, only to die. Your god is a sick, vile, cock-sucking motherfucker who is less then the menstrual discharge of a female baboon.
Here we go again, you just can't hold two concepts in your, easily, confused, fucked-up head, at the same time.
1. Concept one: If one is controlled by force or threat of force then one does not have free will.
2. Concept two: If one forces someone to choose them by force or threat of force then one does not have free will.
Jason, being the confused delusional dick-wad that he is, and completely ignoring the two concepts, said, Great. Therefore, mankind has free will.
Basically I said 2+2=4 and you said, Great, then 2+2 therefore equals 32. You are a mental midget, asshole.
Jason hearing bells in his head says, Does this ring a bell? “But if you are unwilling to serve the Lord, then choose today whom you will serve. Would you prefer the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates? Or will it be the gods of the Amorites in whose land you now live? But as for me and my family, we will serve the Lord." (Jos 24:15)
Still hearing the bells? Eph 1:5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
Jason makes an inept argument and says, God always explains the consequences of actions before He punishes. If people choose to disobey Him regardless, that’s their fault.
That's complete bullshit. The only consequence god explains to the uneducated, child-like, Adam and Eve is that they would surely die, on the day, they partook of the forbidden fruit. Then subsequently you fuck-god blows a gasket and like an out of control, abusive, father he delivers other fucked-up consequences, like punishing Eve and all womanhood by having them experience excruciating pain during childbirth and adding insult to injury she is made to lust and hate her husband, at the same time. Then god, condemns Adam and all men to struggle and suffer hard work, endlessly, in order to eat, by cursing the ground -- another dick-head move by your dumb-ass god. And not only did your god curse the real smart and truthful, talking snake, he punishes all snakes, forever. What an asshole god. And evidently, at no fault of our own, god not having the foreknowledge, let sin enter the world, to curse everyone. Fuck off Jason, you got nothing.
Jason sticking to his twisted logic, says, Irrelevant. Read: People chose voluntarily to disobey God. Therefore, freewill exists.
David's baby didn't disobey god but god made him suffer, only to die. Therefore free will does not exist.
But just when you thought they really had free will, god swooped in and caused mass genocide, disease, and destruction, again, to keep them in line -- NO FREE WILL, AGAIN.
Jason says, Wrong.
David took a census and god punishes at no fault of their own, his chosen people -- no free will.
Jason says,The ability to freely choose had already been exercised from the moment they decided to disobey God.
How about the ones who were to scared to disobey god? NO FREE WILL.
Jason making another inaccurate and lame analogy says, Likewise: Because you’re a relatively intelligent human being, you know that murder is punishable by imprisonment. Nonetheless, on one fine Saturday morning, you walk next door and murder your neighbour. You’re arrested, go before a judge and are found guilty. You spend the rest of your life in prison. At what point was your free will removed: before or after the crime had been committed?
Right, free will was had before the murder took place, (that's in the real world, something you are not accustomed to) but in your fairytale Bible world, if some fuck-wad all-powerful god hovered over me, telling me he would torture me, if I murdered someone or before even thinking of murdering someone, I saw how god -- the mass murdering, baby killing, megalomaniac -- treated my other friends or people by causing them to suffer through diseases, famine, or death by fire, or any vile, demented way god thinks up to control his people, then god would have effectively used fear to control me. NO FREE WILL
Just because some fought back, doesn't mean, that all fought back, some were broken and because they were so horrified their free will had been permanently quelled.
NO FREE WILL.
Then you conveniently avoided the rest of my arguments and questions.
I said, And what god would that be? Who's shoes must I walk in? Oh your god, that's right.
Jason trying his hand at being condescending and completely failing, says, The God of the Bible is the topic of conversation. Are you confused about who we're talking about...?
No, but evidently you are confused and can't read. I answered my own question, fuck-head, to make the point, that you're a delusional, arrogant, little fuck, that thinks his fairytale religion is genuine. Read it again dumb-shit. Maybe now it will sink in;
And what god would that be? Who's shoes must I walk in? Oh your god, that's right. Jason Christian knows the one and only truth, because he thinks the Bible is the one and only truth.
It's a good thing your god made you a red-blooded, Canadian, Christian or a Christadelphian -- you really lucked out and weren't born in Iran, Israel, China, or in some other time or civilization.
Jason not being able to understand the ramifications of the comment said, No kidding!
Little Jason Xtianadelphian wallowing in his own delusion that he and his xtian ilk will be restored, living in the land of bliss, for all of eternity, while the other 99.999999999% of the worlds population goes into oblivion.
ALLLLLLL ABOARRRRRRD!!!!!!! HOP ON THE CRAZY TRAIN TO DELUSION-VILLE!
The key words are, "ALL OF THAT", as contrasted to you saying, it's just as simple as choosing life or death.
Jason still making condescending attempts but still failing miserably, says, And “choosing God” consists of “all of that”. Do you find this confusing? Perhaps you find baptism and prayer difficult…?
What's confusing is, you said, it was as simple as choosing life or death, now it's a laundry list of, "ALL OF THATS". And I'm sure there are more strings attached as well, that you still haven't added.
I asked a germane question, If it is so damned important to make a choice about god and to know all his crucial laws, commandments, messages and it is so very important to know exactly what to do (like all your very specific Christadelphian criteria) to obtain eternal salvation, then why did that dumb ass god, of yours, put, in a book, all that convoluted, information, in the form of songs, poems, parables, symbols, dream imagery, and translated from difficult ancient texts, that could be so easily misinterpreted, perverted or interpreted in so many different ways?
Jason being the simpleton that he is said, God says Adam and Eve ate a “fruit” in the Garden of Eden. People state they ate an apple. Whose fault is this ‘misinterpretation’: God or man?
God's, because he should have known better, ass wipe. Being the all-knowing, creator god, you would think he would know how people can err and make multitudes of mistakes. Just because you pick a simple (being the simple minded jack-ass that you are) misinterpretation doesn't mean that there are not thousands of complex interpretations that have been debated for centuries, you fucking asshole. The Bible is still a miss-mash of vague, metaphorical, time and culturally biased, not to be taken literal or to be taken literal (depending how you look at it), easily misinterpreted, ancient texts.
Even your dumb-ass cult has splintered into other sects, with different interpretations. God's shitty plan in it's full glory -- hallelujah.
Asking another germane question I asked, If the Bible, indeed, holds the one and only truth, then why did your asshole god decide to put it into a book that couldn't possibly get to the masses, to deliver his all important messages?
Jason giving a wholly, inadequate answer said, Good thing God invented mouths, feet and the internet!! Otherwise the book would never make it to the masses!!
Yeah so far god's shitty plan of mouths and feet has sucked ass. And with the Internet, more and more people are coming to the same conclusion -- that the Bible is a fucked-up fairytale, that ignorant dumb-asses like yourself base a religion on.
Asking yet, another germane question, If the Bible is so important and the source for the one and only truth, how come only 30% of the world's population is Christian, while the other 70% of the world's population is another non-biblical, religion or non-religious?
Unable to answer, Jason, feebly says, Go ask the 70%.
Of course you don't have an answer -- you are a delusional fuck-head.
And one more germane question, And how come out of the 30% Christian population there are thousands and thousands of sects and denominations who all have varying and vast ideas and interpretations about the Bible? Your fuck-wad, dumb-ass god is doing a real, shitty, job getting his all important (evidently, rightly, interpreted by you) message to his earthly children.
Delusional Jason, knowing what god's got, says, Oh, God got it right, don’t you worry about that. It’s man who screws thing up – you’re a prime example.
How come your shit-for-brains god didn't take that into account, asshole? That's the whole point of the question. And how do you know you're not the one screwing it up?
One more...And lastly, why did god bestow upon you and your small, insignificant, specific, Christian cult, the one and only CORRECT INTERPRETATION that only you, little Jason Adelphian and the Christadelphian drones could decipher?
Jason, being the deluded asshole that he is, "knowing" what god wants and now, after exhaustive, research and amassing vast, amounts of statistics "knows" "plenty" of Non-Adelphians have the correct interpretation says, You’ll be relieved to know there are plenty of non-Christadelphians who have the correct interpretations as well.
Which, by even, conservative estimates, makes you and other non-Christadelphians combined, less then ONE PERCENT of the entire world population. God sure has a fucked up plan for restoration.
Face it Jason, you are an ignorant, mindless, fucked-up drone, asshole, that can't make a decision on his own without credulously, consulting the make-believe, spurious, Bible that is your delusional, diseased, surrogate brain.
Here comes your choo-choo to DELUSION-VILLE.
--S.
Fri May 16, 12:02:00 AM 2008
Jason said...
Yeah, prove it. All you have are ancient words, from a primitive, ancient, culture, that believed in such ignorant, fucked-up nonsense. How exactly does a sacrifice atone for the sins of mankind? Is it symbolic? Was it supernatural? Was your asshole god so unwise that he couldn't think of anything better, then to father a child, for the sole purpose of having his child suffer, by being scourged, beaten, crucified, as nothing more than a goat sin sacrifice?
You’ve read the Bible and you already know the answers. Maybe you want me to hold your hand and help you through it slowly and carefully...?
So does god think adult sacrifices are acceptable?
Other then Christ’s self-sacrifice? No. The sacrifice of anyone else wouldn’t have accomplished anything.
1. Does god find child sacrifice acceptable, if it wasn't done by parents?
No.
2. Does god find child sacrifice acceptable, if it was offered to him?
No.
3. Does god find adult sacrifice acceptable?
Other then Christ’s self-sacrifice? No.
4. Does god find adult sacrifice, like that of a virgin, who willingly sacrificed herself, for the ignorant, superstitious, belief, that she was appeasing the volcano gods, acceptable?
Depends. Was the sinless, perfect virgin sent by God to atone for the sins of mankind? If she wasn’t, no.
1. Are you saying that because Jesus wasn't sacrificed by his parents then that is what makes it an acceptable sacrifice?
No. I’m saying that because Jesus was the Son of God, sent by God to atone for the sins of mankind, who led a perfect, sinless life, it’s an acceptable sacrifice.
2. Are you saying christ being sacrificed was acceptable because it wasn't done to Molech?
No. I’m saying that because Jesus was the Son of God, sent by God to atone for the sins of mankind, who led a perfect, sinless life, it’s an acceptable sacrifice.
And I noticed you conveniently did not address this verse. It clearly indicates that christ was offered to god, you dip-shit. Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God.
It clearly indicates Christ offered himself without spot to God. Does this confuse you?
So let's see, scripturaly speaking god commanded, willed (didn't ask) Jesus to lay down his life to be sacrificed. Jesus gives up his life because god commanded it.
Read Hebrews 10:10 and John 10:18 – do you see that word “offer”…? This means Jesus obeyed God’s will. Try this: “…he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.” (Phil. 2:8)
Is it morally repugnant for a father to command his son to be harmed, tortured and then crucified?
God didn’t command His son to be harmed or tortured. Neither was a prerequisite to his death. The fact both happened was a reflection of the hatred the Jews and Romans had for Christ.
And isn't it even more vile that a father did so as a sacrifice to himself, like it says in Heb 9:14?
It doesn’t say God sacrificed Jesus to Himself. It says Christ “offered himself without spot to God.”
And yet god did provide Jesus as a sacrifice that according to Heb 9:14 says he was offered to god. God commanded Jesus to offer himself willingly to god himself.
Jesus “offered himself without spot to God.” It doesn’t say, “God sacrificed His son to Himself”.
God who handed down the law of how to give sacrifices that were acceptable to him and took pleasure in, now says, he did not desire them and furthermore he says that they never really worked, in the first place. Why did god show them how to make the proper alters and how to sacrifice animals in the right way, if it never really worked?
Are you serious? No wonder you’re an unbeliever. You were a desperately confused and ignorant Christian to begin with. Hebrews 10:1 “The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming–not the realities themselves.” The whole point of the old law was to foreshadow a better, perfect law. Now read Hebrews 8 and drill it into your thick skull.
Then your god -- who deems human sacrifice unacceptable -- decides to change the old law by commanding his son to lay down his life as a sin sacrifice, that now MAGICALLY brings forth a restoration.
Thankfully for us, yes. See? You are smarter then you think!
God deems human sacrifice an abomination but finds it perfectly acceptable when it's his own son who has to be tortured and crucified.
God also finds it perfectly acceptable to reward his son with eternal life and to give him the power and authority to rule over mankind.
So then god took Jesus' life?
Are you retarded? Seriously. Have you been reading the verses that say Jesus “laid down his life” or that Jesus “offered himself” to God?
OK so let's get this straight god brought Jesus into this world for the sole purpose of having him sacrificed -- something god found unacceptable. God commanded that Jesus should lay down his life, be tortured, crucified and killed, to change a rule god made himself?
Jesus “offered himself without spot to God” to change a law God ultimately designed only to foreshadow and point forward to His son. Yes.
Perhaps you don't remember this verse? Hebrews 10:8 After saying above, "SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS AND WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND FOR SIN YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, NOR HAVE YOU TAKEN PLEASURE
Retard, God doesn’t say “sin offerings are unacceptable”. He says He didn’t desire them or take pleasure in them. He still accepted them though – you’ve read the Old Testament, right…? Do you see all those places where God accepted sin offerings...?
I do not use the Bible as an authoritative source;
Good for you and I don’t care. The Bible still makes it quite clear what sin sacrifices accomplished.
You make the claim that it will have saved millions of people. I say I don't see it. PROVE IT.
I don’t need to prove it. I’m simply explaining, using small words, that this is what the Bible says. The Bible says Jesus laid his life down for his friends of his own accord. The Bible says this worked in saving millions of people. You're going to have to deal with it.
You make the extraordinary claim, that Jesus laid down his life, to somehow magically, absolve our sins. The burden of proof is on you and if you can't prove this to be true, then you are nothing but a delusional, zealous, fuck-hole.
I don’t make the claim – the Bible does. Whether or not I can prove it doesn’t make it wrong. This would be an argument from ignorance and you don’t want that, do you…?
But you said, God didn’t, and doesn’t, FORCE ANYONE to obey the laws He decreed. Do you remember, asshole? you said, ANYONE.
I do remember. I also remember saying “But then Pharaoh is the one example that we’re explicitly told God hardened his heart.” Then I remember you saying that God forced people to obey the laws He decreed. You’ve now provided rather irrelevant references proving God forces His will on people. I’m looking for references proving God FORCED PEOPLE TO OBEY THE LAWS HE DECREED. Can you do that?
Jason, being the confused delusional dick-wad that he is, and completely ignoring the two concepts, said, Great. Therefore, mankind has free will.
Mankind has freewill because mankind isn’t controlled by force or threat of force from God. Mankind has free will because God doesn’t force anyone to choose Him.
Still hearing the bells? Eph 1:5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
What does this have to do with Joshua 24:15? Did or did not Joshua ask the Israelites to CHOOSE the god they wanted to follow?
That's complete bullshit. The only consequence god explains to the uneducated, child-like, Adam and Eve is that they would surely die, on the day, they partook of the forbidden fruit.
Really? Read Deuteronomy 28. This is a detailed description of consequences if the Israelites didn’t follow God: Yes or No.
David's baby didn't disobey god but god made him suffer, only to die. Therefore free will does not exist.
Wow. Are you serious? Gosh, a baby can’t walk – MANKIND MUST NOT HAVE FREEWILL!!!! THE AGONY!!! Oh no, a baby can’t formulate sentence – MANKIND MUST NOT HAVE FREEWILL!!!!!! WHAT A HORRIBLE LIFE!!! Lol You’re such a tool. My point remains: People choose voluntarily to disobey God. Therefore, freewill exists.
David took a census and god punishes at no fault of their own, his chosen people -- no free will.
You are retarded. This has nothing to do with freewill or choosing to follow God or not. Get a grip.
How about the ones who were to scared to disobey god? NO FREE WILL.
First of all, you’re admitting that people who weren’t sacred to disobey God have free will. Works for me. Second of all, who in Scripture is recorded as being too scared to obey anyone other then God? Either put up or shut up.
Right, free will was had before the murder took place, but in your fairytale Bible world, if some god hovered over me, telling me he would torture me, if I murdered someone or before even thinking of murdering someone, I saw how god -- the mass murdering, baby killing, megalomaniac -- treated my other friends or people by causing them to suffer through diseases, famine, or death by fire, or any vile, demented way god thinks up to control his people, then god would have effectively used fear to control me. NO FREE WILL
Blah blah blah. Crimes were committed all the time in the OT, even with God hovering over them. Therefore, you’re wrong and they had freewill. Try again.
Then you conveniently avoided the rest of my arguments and questions.
Very perceptive!! And look, I’m ignoring them again!
Fri May 16, 11:17:00 AM 2008
sconnor said...
Jason,
Jason not part of reality, not knowing you can't get answers from the Bible, says, You’ve read the Bible and you already know the answers. Maybe you want me to hold your hand and help you through it slowly and carefully...?
Yeah just as I suspected, You got nothing. You can't prove your delusional fucked-up beliefs. PROVE that, his death and resurrection atoned for the sins of mankind and has since offered billions of people the chance of eternal life.
If you can't prove it, don't answer, anything else just points to you grasping for straws and you are nothing but a diverging asshole.
So does god think adult sacrifices are acceptable?
Jason says, Other then Christ’s self-sacrifice? No. The sacrifice of anyone else wouldn’t have accomplished anything.
And how do you know christ's sacrifice accomplished anything? PROVE IT.
1. Does god find child sacrifice acceptable, if it wasn't done by parents?
2. Does god find child sacrifice acceptable, if it was offered to him?
3. Does god find adult sacrifice acceptable?
Jason answers, No, No, No -- Other then Christ’s self-sacrifice.
God finds human sacrifice morally reprehensible and unacceptable, yet, little Jason Christian doesn't see the twisted logic, in his arguments, that it is acceptable that god uses the sacrifice of his son to supposedly, magically, atone for our sins. Jason, you are a dizzingly fucked up, loon.
4. Does god find adult sacrifice, like that of a virgin, who willingly sacrificed herself, for the ignorant, superstitious, belief, that she was appeasing the volcano gods, acceptable?
Jason gives an inept answer, Depends. Was the sinless, perfect virgin sent by God to atone for the sins of mankind? If she wasn’t, no.
Prove Christ, Was the sinless, perfect virgin sent by God to atone for the sins of mankind?
Jason says, No. I’m saying that because Jesus was the Son of God, sent by God to atone for the sins of mankind, who led a perfect, sinless life, it’s an acceptable sacrifice.
PROVE it, bitch.
Jason says, No. I’m saying that because Jesus was the Son of God, sent by God to atone for the sins of mankind...
PROVE it fuck-wad.
And I noticed you conveniently did not address this verse. It clearly indicates that christ was offered to god, you dip-shit. Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God.
Jason making more inept points says, It clearly indicates Christ offered himself without spot to God. Does this confuse you?
Not at all asshole. You are the one confused. You said, It was God Himself who provided Christ, and we can't say that it was a human sacrifice to God if He provided the sacrifice.
So we know god provided the sacrifice, just like parents provided the sacrifice in the OT and we know the sacrifice was offered to god because of Hebrews 9:14
Just because christ offered himself doesn't mean god didn't command it. You admit it was a sacrifice, you admit that god provided the sacrifice and Heb 9:14 says it was offered to god. The same god who you admit finds human sacrifice unacceptable. You have to do back flips and cartwheels and contort your logic into mind origami to retain your precious delusion.
So let's see, scripturaly speaking god commanded, willed (didn't ask) Jesus to lay down his life to be sacrificed. Jesus gives up his life because god commanded it.
Jason says, Read Hebrews 10:10 and John 10:18 – do you see that word “offer”…? This means Jesus obeyed God’s will. Try this: “…he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.” (Phil. 2:8)
Try this fuck-head, Just because christ offered himself, did not mean god did not command it. He willed it.
Is it morally repugnant for a father to command his son to be harmed, tortured and then crucified?
Jason not being able to answer if it is wrong for a father to command his son to be harmed, diverged and said, God didn’t command His son to be harmed or tortured. Neither was a prerequisite to his death. The fact both happened was a reflection of the hatred the Jews and Romans had for Christ.
And yet your motherfucking god being omniscient and omnipotent proceeded with his asinine, atrocious, and ridiculous plan for restoration, knowing full well that his son would be tortured and crucified. Surely an all-knowing all-powerful god could of come up with a better plan, one that wouldn't include, the absurd superstition of having his son being sacrificed as a sin-goat? Maybe a plan that would be believable to sane, non superstitious people.
And isn't it even more vile that a father did so as a sacrifice to himself, like it says in Heb 9:14?
Jason blind as a bat says, It doesn’t say God sacrificed Jesus to Himself. It says Christ “offered himself without spot to God.”
Right, christ offered or sacrificed himself to god. He didn't offer or sacrifice himself to anyone else did he? -- not if it says he offered or sacrificed himself to god.
And yet god did provide Jesus as a sacrifice that according to Heb 9:14 says he was offered to god. God commanded Jesus to offer himself willingly to god himself.
Jason says, Jesus “offered himself without spot to God.” It doesn’t say, “God sacrificed His son to Himself”.
It doesn't say it verbatim, But you admit that god sent Jesus to be a sacrifice.
(You said, how many of the humans offered up were sinless or sent by God to atone for the sins of mankind?) You also admit it was a sacrifice. And Hebrews 9:14 plainly states that Jesus offered himself to GOD. God sent him to be sacrificed, god commanded (willed) Jesus to be sacrificed, Jesus sacrificed himself, and who did Jesus sacrifice (offer, just like a goat sin offering) himself to? god.
Jason putting his diseased, fuck-mind into overdrive says, Are you serious? No wonder you’re an unbeliever. You were a desperately confused and ignorant Christian to begin with. Hebrews 10:1 “The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming–not the realities themselves.” The whole point of the old law was to foreshadow a better, perfect law. Now read Hebrews 8 and drill it into your thick skull.
Yeah that's because your dumb-ass god couldn't get it right the first time around. Thanks for pointing out how much your god resembles a cosmic moron. It still shows that your fuck-wad god handed down ridiculous and bizarre rules for how to perform animal sacrifices and talked about how good it smelled to him, but then contradicts himself by saying he never desired them or found them pleasurable, and to add insult to injury he let's all his mindless sheep know that for the thousands of years, they performed their obsessive rituals, getting the sacrifice just right to please the lord and to make themselves clean from sin, never, ever worked. The only thing your old law foreshadowed was an asshole god who delved out stupid fucking rituals, that really didn't work, only to contradict himself later saying he never desired them when that's all he did back in the day.
God told us to make animal and grain and wine sacrifices to cleanse us of our sins, now he tells us that they didn't really work so god tells us now he will sacrifice his son rid of our sins -- why should I trust this lying motherfucker -- he sure as shit doesn't have a good track record?
Then your god -- who deems human sacrifice unacceptable -- decides to change the old law by commanding his son to lay down his life as a sin sacrifice, that now MAGICALLY brings forth a restoration.
Jason not seeing the condescending nature of my comment and that "magic" is absurd and superstitious, said, Thankfully for us, yes. See? You are smarter then you think!
...And I'm waaaaay smarter than the way you think.
Jason delusionally believes, God also finds it perfectly acceptable to reward his son with eternal life and to give him the power and authority to rule over mankind.
PROVE IT, bitch. Prove that Jesus is has been rewarded with eternal life and has power over us.
Jason, getting bent out of shape says, Are you RETARDED? Seriously. Have you been reading the verses that say Jesus “laid down his life” or that Jesus “offered himself” to God?
RETARD, God doesn’t say “sin offerings are unacceptable”. He says He didn’t desire them or take pleasure in them.
OOOOOOhhhhhh, looks like I struck a nerve. Poor little Jason christian is in trouble. your gonna get it. Jesus isn't gonna like you calling people names.
Matthew 5:22 -- "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever * says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever * says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty into the fiery hell."
Murder is wrong (Exodus 20:13). However, a person might feel angry, and he might become more and more angry. Then he is guilty as well. People sometimes used the word ‘Raca’ which meant that a person was stupid. He had little worth. The word ‘fool’ has the same meaning.
Someone might accuse such a person because they were not behaving well. But that is putting yourself in God’s place as judge. ‘Gehenna’ was another name for Hinnom valley. It was just outside Jerusalem city, and the *Jews threw out their rubbish there. They burned fires there all the time. So it became the name for God’s punishment place. People usually translate it as ‘hell’. God will judge people by the way that they think. He will also judge them by the way that they speak. And he will judge them by the way that they behave. God will judge anger. He says that evil insults are like murder.
1 John 3:15 -- Anyone who hates his brother is murdering him.
You just got your ticket to paradise revoked, asshole, you better suck Jesus' dick a lot or you're fucked -- to oblivion for you, bitch.
And I'm way ahead of you, I've called you all kinds of names, but I don't believe in your sky-fairy or your reputed fairytale book -- the Bible. So fuck off, retard!
Let's not forget what the lord said in Psalm 15:1-5,
1 LORD, who may dwell in your sanctuary?
Who may live on your holy hill?
2 He whose walk is blameless
and who does what is righteous,
who speaks the truth from his heart
3 AND HAS NO SLANDER ON HIS TONGUE,
WHO DOES HIS NEIGHBOR NO WRONG
AND CASTS NO SLUR ON HIS FELLOW MAN,
4 who despises a vile man
but honors those who fear the LORD,
who keeps his oath
even when it hurts,
5 who lends his money without usury
and does not accept a bribe against the innocent.
He who does these things
will never be shaken.
Uh, oh, jason -- there goes your imaginary sanctuary and your imaginary holy hill. Are you on your knees yet? I can hardly wait to hear what twisted logic and loony rationalization you will have, why you haven't sinned against your sky-fairy for calling me a retard. (I called you a retard, not a fool, you're not my brother, I wasn't angry, I didn't mean it to be mean, I'm telling the truth -- excuse, excuse, excuse.)
Reiterating what Jason said, Retard, God doesn’t say “sin offerings are unacceptable”. He says He didn’t desire them or take pleasure in them.
Mega-retard, when you don't desire something; if you don't want something, if you take no pleasure in something, does that mean you like it and find it acceptable? you are such a fucking delusional douche-bag. God took them, evidently, but at the same time found them unacceptable. It's not my asshole, easily confused god; it's yours.
Jason desperately says, Good for you and I don’t care. The Bible still makes it quite clear what sin sacrifices accomplished.
Whoop-d-doo and the quran makes it quite clear if your not muslim you will burn in hell for an eternity. Just because it says it in a book does NOT make it true.
Prove to me your superstitious, magic works.
Jason making extraordinary claims like a crazy preacher says, don’t need to prove it. I’m simply explaining, using small words, that this is what the Bible says. The Bible says Jesus laid his life down for his friends of his own accord.
Well that's what I come to expect from you -- small words. You have failed miserably at using big ones. But if you can't prove it then it's not even worth the paper it's printed on.
You believe in this ridiculous nonsense; this superstitious, mumbojumbo, because you are an ignorant, delusional twat, that believes in fairy tales, that are imagined by men, who used god's supposed voice, as their own, to give it credibility, and you fell for it, invested your life in it and you are too fucked in the head to see it.
You make the extraordinary claim, that Jesus laid down his life, to somehow magically, absolve our sins. The burden of proof is on you and if you can't prove this to be true, then you are nothing but a delusional, zealous, fuck-hole.
Jason trying to mince words and weasel out on what he believes said, I don’t make the claim – the Bible does. Whether or not I can prove it doesn’t make it wrong. This would be an argument from ignorance and you don’t want that, do you…?
The Bible makes the extraordinary claim that you, believe, support, proselytize, and invest your life in, which means you make the same claim. I'm just asking for evidence of how sacrificing a man, magically, takes away a persons sin -- can you do that, dick-wad?
Whether or not you can prove it doesn't make it wrong but it doesn't make it credible. What it does prove is you are a delusional asshole and a gullible simpleton who believes in shit based on nothing more then a fairytale book and a complete and utter lack of evidence.
But you said, God didn’t, and doesn’t, FORCE ANYONE to obey the laws He decreed. Do you remember, asshole? you said, ANYONE.
Jason said, I do remember. I also remember saying “But then Pharaoh is the one example that we’re explicitly told God hardened his heart.” Then I remember you saying that God forced people to obey the laws He decreed. You’ve now provided rather irrelevant references proving God forces His will on people.
Do you remember making this dumb-ass statement?
But you still haven’t proven that anyone, other then Pharaoh, was ever forced to do anything.
Which I proved by the list below that you evidently can't argue and have to turn into a specific argument of obeying the laws that he decreed. It wasn't just obeying the laws he decreed it was they had to OBEY HIM. The list below shows him forcing his people to obey him.
1. hardened Pharaohs heart (you knew this one already even though you said, god did NOT FORCE ANYONE).
2. Jer. 24:7 I will give them a heart to know Me, for I am the LORD; and they will be My people , and I will be their God, for they will return to Me with their whole heart.
3. John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless * the Father who sent Me draws ( metaphor, to draw by inward power, lead, impel him) and I will raise him up on the last day.
4. Ec. 7:14 In the day of prosperity be happy , But in the day of adversity consider-- God has made the one as well as the other So * that man will not discover anything after him.
5. John 12:40 "HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO * THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL
6. De 2:30 But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land; for the LORD your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order to deliver him into your hand, as today.
7. Jud 7:22 When they blew 300 * trumpets, the LORD set the sword of one against another even throughout the whole army; and the army fled as far as Beth-shittah toward Zererah, as far as the edge of Abel-meholah, by Tabbath
8. 2Th. 2:11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false
9. 2 Sam. 12:15 So Nathan went to his house. Then the LORD struck the child that Uriah's widow bore to David, so that he was sick. Baby sure as hell didn't do anything and didn't have a choice in the matter. God forced the baby to become sick and suffer for seven days, only to die. Your god is a sick, vile, cock-sucking motherfucker who is less then the menstrual discharge of a female baboon.
Mankind has freewill because mankind isn’t controlled by force or threat of force from God. Mankind has free will because God doesn’t force anyone to choose Him.
Yeah now you're getting it. The clouds are lifting from that delusion mill you call a brain. That's right in the REAL world god doesn't control us by force or threat of force. He also doesn't answer prayers, he doesn't give us laws to live by, he doesn't control the weather, he doesn't heal the sick, he doesn't bless people, he doesn't damn people, he doesn't give you that great big promotion that you always wanted and he doesn't force you to choose him, because he is not real -- asshole. Now in your imaginary collection of bullshit, you call the Bible, it's a completely different story -- with emphasis on STORY. God controls his people with the threat of force, with a huge list of vile and disturbing curses, in Deut. 28
If god wanted to do lunch, let me get to know him, catch a movie, hang out, be a friend, become a compassionate and helpful uncle figure to my kids, be a mentor, and build a long lasting REAL relationship with me, then I would have more then enough credible information to base a choice on. As it is now I have a fairytale book with zero credibility and a depiction of a Deity who's moral character is monumentally more corrupt and vile then every sadistic dictator, murderer, rapist, torturer, crusader, combined and the zealous rantings of a delusional asshole, Christadelphian.
That's complete bullshit. The only consequence god explains to the uneducated, child-like, Adam and Eve is that they would surely die, on the day, they partook of the forbidden fruit.
Jason really takes a huge leap and diverges by saying, Really? Read Deuteronomy 28. This is a detailed description of consequences if the Israelites didn’t follow God: Yes or No.
No -- it's a vile and demented list of curses, reserved for only the most sadistic and fucked-up Deity, ever imagined, so he could control a people. NO FREE WILL.
Asshole you said, God always explains the consequences of actions before He punishes. If people choose to disobey Him regardless, that’s their fault.
God ALWAYS explains the consequences of actions before he punishes? Then I proved you wrong, with god not doling out the consequences, until after Adam and Eve's actions.
David's baby didn't disobey god but god made him suffer, only to die. Therefore free will does not exist.
Jason laying it on thick says, Wow. Are you serious? Gosh, a baby can’t walk – MANKIND MUST NOT HAVE FREEWILL!!!! THE AGONY!!! Oh no, a baby can’t formulate sentence – MANKIND MUST NOT HAVE FREEWILL!!!!!! WHAT A HORRIBLE LIFE!!! Lol You’re such a tool. My point remains: People choose voluntarily to disobey God. Therefore, freewill exists.
Just another example of gods fucked-up, sadistic, way of imposing his will on others, showing that free will once again has been exterminated.
BTW are you suggesting that a baby doesn't have the same rights to free will that supposedly everyone has? By your diseased logic, abortions are acceptable because, Gosh, a baby can’t walk... or Oh no, a baby can’t formulate sentence.
My point remains: If god intervenes in a babies life causing it to become sick, suffer and die and can't choose one way or the other then free will doesn't exist. NO CHOICE; NO FREE WILL.
David took a census and god punishes at no fault of their own, his chosen people -- no free will.
Jason being naughty in the eyes of his lord and savior says, You are retarded. This has nothing to do with freewill or choosing to follow God or not. Get a grip.
Uh, oh, not with the disparaging retarded thing again. You're mouth is gonna get sore.
It has everything to do with free will being stompped on and David not following god. God's chosen people had no CHOICE in the matter and they were not the ones disobeying and 70,000 of them suffered and died from a horrendous disease. NO CHOICE, NO FREE WILL.
How about the ones who were to scared to disobey god? NO FREE WILL.
Jason says, First of all, you’re admitting that people who weren’t sacred to disobey God have free will.
First off, dumb shit, I'm saying god controlled his children with fear, who were too scared to disobey, while the rest were superstitious, mindless, blind sheep, too ignorant to know that their free will was broken. Works for me. And secondly, in scripture anyone that wasn't a mindless, ignorant sheep, was, controlled by fear -- too scared to disobey god. NO FREE WILL.
Right, free will was had before the murder took place, but in your fairytale Bible world, if some god hovered over me, telling me he would torture me, if I murdered someone or before even thinking of murdering someone, I saw how god -- the mass murdering, baby killing, megalomaniac -- treated my other friends or people by causing them to suffer through diseases, famine, or death by fire, or any vile, demented way god thinks up to control his people, then god would have effectively used fear to control me. NO FREE WILL
Jason said, Blah blah blah.
Excellent retort, stellar well thought out argument, well said, my good man.
Jason said, Crimes were committed all the time in the OT, even with God hovering over them. Therefore, you’re wrong and they had freewill. Try again.
My analogy more accurately explains how your maniacal god controlled his people through sick and vile force and threats of force as opposed to your erroneous analogy:
Nonetheless, on one fine Saturday morning, you walk next door and murder your neighbor. You’re arrested, go before a judge and are found guilty. You spend the rest of your life in prison. At what point was your free will removed: before or after the crime had been committed?
God used the threat of force and force to control his people. Most became broken and obeyed god's will, others were sheep, who blindly followed, and others, who were either sheep or broken -- their free will effectively taken from them for any duration, at some time, finally, rose up out of the shackles of god's demented, and insidious, plan of controlling his children. Just because they finally took matters into their own hands and released themselves from god's brutal mental bondage doesn't mean that they had free will the entire time.
Then you conveniently avoided the rest of my arguments and questions.
Jason, ignores what is too hard to deal with, says, Very perceptive!! And look, I’m ignoring them again!
Of course you are, that's because you are a mindless fucking, asshole, drone, that lets the Bible do your thinking for you. you're a christian pussy, that can't answer with his own mind and when the questions get too difficult and the answers aren't in your fairytale book you have to plop your pussy-ass head in the sand. You got nothing.
Here they are again, for your viewing displeasure.
In any case, if they can't be answered, then I would have to say God's plan is seriously flawed and I would have to conclude the Bible and Christianity is a delusional, human construct, susceptible to fallibility and there really, is nothing gained from it, except an illusion of authority and the illusion of eternal life.
Little Jason Xtianadelphian wallowing in his own delusion that he and his xtian ilk will be restored, living in the land of bliss, for all of eternity, while the other 99.999999999% of the worlds population goes into oblivion.
ALLLLLLL ABOARRRRRRD!!!!!!! HOP ON THE CRAZY TRAIN TO DELUSION-VILLE!
The key words are, "ALL OF THAT", as contrasted to you saying, it's just as simple as choosing life or death.
Jason still making condescending attempts but still failing miserably, says, And “choosing God” consists of “all of that”. Do you find this confusing? Perhaps you find baptism and prayer difficult…?
What's confusing is, you said, it was as simple as choosing life or death, now it's a laundry list of, "ALL OF THATS". And I'm sure there are more strings attached as well, that you still haven't added.
I asked a germane question, If it is so damned important to make a choice about god and to know all his crucial laws, commandments, messages and it is so very important to know exactly what to do (like all your very specific Christadelphian criteria) to obtain eternal salvation, then why did that dumb ass god, of yours, put, in a book, all that convoluted, information, in the form of songs, poems, parables, symbols, dream imagery, and translated from difficult ancient texts, that could be so easily misinterpreted, perverted or interpreted in so many different ways?
Jason being the simpleton that he is said, God says Adam and Eve ate a “fruit” in the Garden of Eden. People state they ate an apple. Whose fault is this ‘misinterpretation’: God or man?
God's, because he should have known better, ass wipe. Being the all-knowing, creator god, you would think he would know how people can err and make multitudes of mistakes. Just because you pick a simple (being the simple minded jack-ass that you are) misinterpretation doesn't mean that there are not thousands of complex interpretations that have been debated for centuries, you fucking asshole. The Bible is still a miss-mash of vague, metaphorical, time and culturally biased, not to be taken literal or to be taken literal (depending how you look at it), easily misinterpreted, ancient texts.
Even your dumb-ass cult has splintered into other sects, with different interpretations. God's shitty plan in it's full glory -- hallelujah.
Asking another germane question I asked, If the Bible, indeed, holds the one and only truth, then why did your asshole god decide to put it into a book that couldn't possibly get to the masses, to deliver his all important messages?
Jason giving a wholly, inadequate answer said, Good thing God invented mouths, feet and the internet!! Otherwise the book would never make it to the masses!!
Yeah so far god's shitty plan of mouths and feet has sucked ass. And with the Internet, more and more people are coming to the same conclusion -- that the Bible is a fucked-up fairytale, that ignorant dumb-asses like yourself base a religion on.
Asking yet, another germane question, If the Bible is so important and the source for the one and only truth, how come only 30% of the world's population is Christian, while the other 70% of the world's population is another non-biblical, religion or non-religious?
Unable to answer, Jason, feebly says, Go ask the 70%.
Of course you don't have an answer -- you are a delusional fuck-head.
And one more germane question, And how come out of the 30% Christian population there are thousands and thousands of sects and denominations who all have varying and vast ideas and interpretations about the Bible? Your fuck-wad, dumb-ass god is doing a real, shitty, job getting his all important (evidently, rightly, interpreted by you) message to his earthly children.
Delusional Jason, knowing what god's got, says, Oh, God got it right, don’t you worry about that. It’s man who screws thing up – you’re a prime example.
How come your shit-for-brains god didn't take that into account, asshole? That's the whole point of the question. And how do you know you're not the one screwing it up?
One more...And lastly, why did god bestow upon you and your small, insignificant, specific, Christian cult, the one and only CORRECT INTERPRETATION that only you, little Jason Adelphian and the Christadelphian drones could decipher?
Jason, being the deluded asshole that he is, "knowing" what god wants and now, after exhaustive, research and amassing vast, amounts of statistics "knows" "plenty" of Non-Adelphians have the correct interpretation says, You’ll be relieved to know there are plenty of non-Christadelphians who have the correct interpretations as well.
Which, by even, conservative estimates, makes you and other non-Christadelphians combined, less then ONE PERCENT of the entire world population. God sure has a fucked up plan for restoration.
Face it Jason, you are an ignorant, mindless, fucked-up drone, asshole, that can't make a decision on his own without credulously, consulting the make-believe, spurious, Bible that is your delusional, diseased, surrogate brain.
Here comes your choo-choo to DELUSION-VILLE.
--S.
Mon May 19, 07:19:00 AM 2008
Jason said...
Sconnor,
I’ve already proven my beliefs. The only thing you can do is spew out a bunch of vulgarities and hope it gets me upset enough to respond in kind. Sorry, my friend, it won’t work.
See, the only proof I need that Jesus’ death and resurrection atoned for the sins of mankind is found in Scripture. Since you’re unable to argue from it yourself, now you’re resorting to asking me to prove this outside of Scripture. As you well know, I can’t, since there is no record of a future salvation outside of this book. The problem for you though is that this doesn’t prove anything. In fact, you’re committing an argument from ignorance. Just because something can’t be proven to be true, doesn’t make it false. Can you prove Jesus’ blood didn’t atone for the sins of mankin?
And how do you know christ's sacrifice accomplished anything? PROVE IT.
I already have. Now prove it didn't
God finds human sacrifice morally reprehensible and unacceptable, yet, little Jason Christian doesn't see the twisted logic, in his arguments, that it is acceptable that god uses the sacrifice of his son to supposedly, magically, atone for our sins.
The questions were answered. They were: No, no and no. Not surprisingly, you’re obviously unable to offer an intelligent argument proving I’m wrong.
Jason says, No. I’m saying that because Jesus was the Son of God, sent by God to atone for the sins of mankind, who led a perfect, sinless life, it’s an acceptable sacrifice. - PROVE it, bitch.
Already have, my friend. You’re out of brilliant ideas, aren’t you ☺
Jason says, No. I’m saying that because Jesus was the Son of God, sent by God to atone for the sins of mankind... - PROVE it fuck-wad.
Already have. You’re definitely out of brilliant ideas…
Just because christ offered himself doesn't mean god didn't command it.
It was God’s will, but it was Christ’s decision. Hence Jesus was “obedient unto death”.
You admit it was a sacrifice, you admit that god provided the sacrifice and Heb 9:14 says it was offered to god. The same god who you admit finds human sacrifice unacceptable. You have to do back flips and cartwheels and contort your logic into mind origami to retain your precious delusion.
The self-offering of Christ isn’t comparable to any other sacrifice in Scripture. If you can find any other, sinless, Son of God, who offered himself to save the lives of many, and who was raised incorruptible, I’ll gladly admit you’re right.
So let's see, scripturaly speaking god commanded, willed (didn't ask) Jesus to lay down his life to be sacrificed. Jesus gives up his life because god commanded it.
So let’s see, Jesus gave up his life willingly, obeying the will of his Father. Yup, works for me. You?
Try this fuck-head, Just because christ offered himself, did not mean god did not command it. He willed it.
Of course God willed it. But God didn’t force it, otherwise it couldn’t be said Christ was “obedient unto death” or that he “offered himself”. Try again.
And yet your motherfucking god being omniscient and omnipotent proceeded with his asinine, atrocious, and ridiculous plan for restoration, knowing full well that his son would be tortured and crucified. Surely an all-knowing all-powerful god could of come up with a better plan, one that wouldn't include, the absurd superstition of having his son being sacrificed as a sin-goat? Maybe a plan that would be believable to sane, non superstitious people.
Yawn. Like I said: God didn’t command for His son to be harmed or tortured. Question answered. Get over it.
And isn't it even more vile that a father did so as a sacrifice to himself, like it says in Heb 9:14?
Jesus gave up his life willing, laying it down for his friends. Try again.
Right, christ offered or sacrificed himself to god. He didn't offer or sacrifice himself to anyone else did he? -- not if it says he offered or sacrificed himself to god.
Like I said, it doesn’t say God sacrificed Jesus to Himself. It says Christ “offered himself without spot to God”. Thanks though.
And yet god did provide Jesus as a sacrifice that according to Heb 9:14 says he was offered to god. God commanded Jesus to offer himself willingly to god himself.
And Christ was obedient and did so, offering himself to God.
It doesn't say it verbatim, But you admit that god sent Jesus to be a sacrifice.
Absolutely. Who else was sent to be a sacrifice for the sins of mankind?
(You said, how many of the humans offered up were sinless or sent by God to atone for the sins of mankind?) You also admit it was a sacrifice. And Hebrews 9:14 plainly states that Jesus offered himself to GOD. God sent him to be sacrificed, god commanded (willed) Jesus to be sacrificed, Jesus sacrificed himself, and who did Jesus sacrifice (offer, just like a goat sin offering) himself to? god.
I’m not arguing any of that. Jesus was “obedient unto death” by offering himself to his Father to atone for the sins of mankind. Now, answer the question: how many of the humans offered up were sinless or sent by God to atone for the sins of mankind?
Yeah that's because your dumb-ass god couldn't get it right the first time around.
Actually, it’s because the old law was purposely designed to foreshadow Christ and the new law. Don’t you know anything…?
Prove that Jesus is has been rewarded with eternal life and has power over us.
I already have. Now prove he hasn’t.
‘Gehenna’ was another name for Hinnom valley. It was just outside Jerusalem city, and the *Jews threw out their rubbish there. They burned fires there all the time. So it became the name for God’s punishment place. People usually translate it as ‘hell’. God will judge people by the way that they think. He will also judge them by the way that they speak. And he will judge them by the way that they behave. God will judge anger. He says that evil insults are like murder.
Yawn. Whenever you have something new and interesting to share, let me know.
Mega-retard, when you don't desire something; if you don't want something, if you take no pleasure in something, does that mean you like it and find it acceptable?
Give me a verse that says God found sin offerings unacceptable.
Prove to me your superstitious, magic works.
Prove to me it doesn’t.
Well that's what I come to expect from you -- small words. You have failed miserably at using big ones. But if you can't prove it then it's not even worth the paper it's printed on.
And you can’t disprove it.
The Bible makes the extraordinary claim that you, believe, support, proselytize, and invest your life in, which means you make the same claim. I'm just asking for evidence of how sacrificing a man, magically, takes away a persons sin -- can you do that, dick-wad?
I’ve already given you the evidence. Now I’d like something proving he didn’t atone for sins. Go for it.
But you said, God didn’t, and doesn’t, FORCE ANYONE to obey the laws He decreed. Do you remember, asshole? you said, ANYONE.
And I’ve already addressed this.
Which I proved by the list below that you evidently can't argue and have to turn into a specific argument of obeying the laws that he decreed. It wasn't just obeying the laws he decreed it was they had to OBEY HIM. The list below shows him forcing his people to obey him.
The discussion was never about God forcing people to obey Him. It was about forcing people to obey the laws He decreed. If you wanted to argue the former, you should have made that clear at the beginning.
God controls his people with the threat of force, with a huge list of vile and disturbing curses, in Deut. 28
Yet threat of “vile and disturbing curses” didn’t control the Israelites. They still disobeyed. Try again, please.
Jason really takes a huge leap and diverges by saying, Really? Read Deuteronomy 28. This is a detailed description of consequences if the Israelites didn’t follow God: Yes or No. -- No -- it's a vile and demented list of curses, reserved for only the most sadistic and fucked-up Deity, ever imagined, so he could control a people. NO FREE WILL.
Deuteronomy 28 is a detail description of consequences if the Israelites didn’t follow God because of this: “But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:” (Deut 28:15) Seems like a list of consequences to me. Therefore, you’re wrong and God did explain the consequences for disobeying Him.
God ALWAYS explains the consequences of actions before he punishes? Then I proved you wrong, with god not doling out the consequences, until after Adam and Eve's actions.
He explained the consequences to Adam & Eve and He explained the consequences to the Israelites. What are you having trouble figuring out?
Just another example of gods fucked-up, sadistic, way of imposing his will on others, showing that free will once again has been exterminated.
Lol You’re a tool.
My point remains: If god intervenes in a babies life causing it to become sick, suffer and die and can't choose one way or the other then free will doesn't exist. NO CHOICE; NO FREE WILL.
And your point is idiotic since babies don’t have freewill whether God exists or not. Such a retard…
It has everything to do with free will being stompped on and David not following god. God's chosen people had no CHOICE in the matter and they were not the ones disobeying and 70,000 of them suffered and died from a horrendous disease. NO CHOICE, NO FREE WILL.
And like I said, this has nothing to do with freewill or choosing to follow God or not. Thanks.
First off, dumb shit, I'm saying god controlled his children with fear, who were too scared to disobey, while the rest were superstitious, mindless, blind sheep, too ignorant to know that their free will was broken. Works for me. And secondly, in scripture anyone that wasn't a mindless, ignorant sheep, was, controlled by fear -- too scared to disobey god. NO FREE WILL.
Prove it.
Right, free will was had before the murder took place, but in your fairytale Bible world, if some god hovered over me, telling me he would torture me, if I murdered someone or before even thinking of murdering someone, I saw how god -- the mass murdering, baby killing, megalomaniac -- treated my other friends or people by causing them to suffer through diseases, famine, or death by fire, or any vile, demented way god thinks up to control his people, then god would have effectively used fear to control me. NO FREE WILL
God did all of this when He passed his laws yet people still committed murder and broke His commandments. Oops, there goes your theory.
My analogy more accurately explains how your maniacal god controlled his people through sick and vile force and threats of force as opposed to your erroneous analogy:
Irrelevant. Crimes were committed all the time in the OT, even with God hovering over them. Likewise, crimes are committed all the time today, even with the threat of the law hanging over them. Therefore, you’re wrong and they had freewill. Try again.
God used the threat of force and force to control his people. Most became broken and obeyed god's will, others were sheep, who blindly followed, and others, who were either sheep or broken -- their free will effectively taken from them for any duration, at some time, finally, rose up out of the shackles of god's demented, and insidious, plan of controlling his children. Just because they finally took matters into their own hands and released themselves from god's brutal mental bondage doesn't mean that they had free will the entire time.
So they did have free will.
Fri May 23, 02:46:00 PM 2008
sconnor said...
Jason,
Jason thinking he has proved his beliefs said, I’ve already proven my beliefs.
You haven't proven shit. Except that you are a delusional, asshole, who believes in a sky fairy who put his all important information into a fairy tale book -- the wholly unsubstantiated, reputed Bible. You got shit.
Jason avoiding my other arguments, says, The only thing you can do is spew out a bunch of vulgarities and hope it gets me upset enough to respond in kind. Sorry, my friend, it won’t work.
It already did, dumb-fuck. I've already mind-fucked you, asshole. Remember, I struck a nerve and you resorted to calling me names. Remember you called me a RETARD.
You keep calling me names and not following Jesus' commandments, you must like sucking Jesus' dick.
You're gonna get it. Jesus isn't gonna like you calling people names.
Matthew 5:22 -- "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever * says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever * says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty into the fiery hell."
Murder is wrong (Exodus 20:13). However, a person might feel angry, and he might become more and more angry. Then he is guilty as well. People sometimes used the word ‘Raca’ which meant that a person was stupid. He had little worth. The word ‘fool’ has the same meaning.
Someone might accuse such a person because they were not behaving well. But that is putting yourself in God’s place as judge. ‘Gehenna’ was another name for Hinnom valley. It was just outside Jerusalem city, and the *Jews threw out their rubbish there. They burned fires there all the time. So it became the name for God’s punishment place. People usually translate it as ‘hell’. God will judge people by the way that they think. He will also judge them by the way that they speak. And he will judge them by the way that they behave. God will judge anger. He says that evil insults are like murder.
1 John 3:15 -- Anyone who hates his brother is murdering him.
You just got your ticket to paradise revoked, asshole, you better suck Jesus' dick a lot or you're fucked -- to oblivion for you, bitch.
And I'm way ahead of you, I've called you all kinds of names, but I don't believe in your sky-fairy or your reputed fairytale book -- the Bible. So fuck off, retard!
Let's not forget what the lord said in Psalm 15:1-5,
1 LORD, who may dwell in your sanctuary?
Who may live on your holy hill?
2 He whose walk is blameless
and who does what is righteous,
who speaks the truth from his heart
3 AND HAS NO SLANDER ON HIS TONGUE,
WHO DOES HIS NEIGHBOR NO WRONG
AND CASTS NO SLUR ON HIS FELLOW MAN,
4 who despises a vile man
but honors those who fear the LORD,
who keeps his oath
even when it hurts,
5 who lends his money without usury
and does not accept a bribe against the innocent.
He who does these things
will never be shaken.
Uh, oh, jason -- there goes your imaginary sanctuary and your imaginary holy hill. Are you on your knees yet? I can hardly wait to hear what twisted logic and loony rationalization you will have, why you haven't sinned against your sky-fairy for calling me a retard. (I called you a retard, not a fool, you're not my brother, I wasn't angry, I didn't mean it to be mean, I'm telling the truth -- excuse, excuse, excuse.)
Jason submits feeble evidence by saying, See, the only proof I need that Jesus’ death and resurrection atoned for the sins of mankind is found in Scripture.
Which is nothing more than a big pile of steaming shit and pus. You must fore go reason (being a brain-dead zombie, that's easy for you) and PRETEND scripture is valid. You have CHOSEN to believe in superstitious shit, ridiculous magic, talking snakes, talking donkeys and the undead walking around. That is no proof, dick-wad, that's a DELUSION. That's like saying you proved it was true because it was found in the scripture of the Qur'an or the Bhagavad Gita.
Jason thinks I can't argue for myself says, Since you’re unable to argue from it yourself,
My arguments hold firm. Just because you twist and contort logic to fit your world-view doesn't mean my arguments wern't germane.
Jason feebly continues,...now you’re resorting to asking me to prove this outside of Scripture. As you well know, I can’t, since there is no record of a future salvation outside of this book.
That's right asshole, You got nothing more than a fairy tale book, that you have invested your whole worthless life to. A fairy tale book that has absolutely zero credibility, except what you have imagined and assigned to it.
Jason trying desperately to use debate logic, says, The problem for you though is that this doesn’t prove anything. In fact, you’re committing an argument from ignorance. Just because something can’t be proven to be true, doesn’t make it false. Can you prove Jesus’ blood didn’t atone for the sins of mankin?
This is no problem, because superstitious, magic, is NOT true, you delusional fuck-tard. You really shouldn't play with difficult debate arguments like "an argument from ignorance". You have no idea what you are doing. It's not an argument from ignorance, because we KNOW in REALITY, that magic doesn't exist. The burden of proof rest squarely in your lap. You make the ridiculously, extraordinary, claim that Jesus died, to somehow, "magically" atone for our sins and then three days later, he became one of the walking dead. None of this nonsense is based in reality. Not only do you have to prove magic exists, you have to prove, specifically, Jesus' death magically atoned for sins and even more specifically you must demonstrate how and where the sins have gone. If you declare you believe in talking snakes, like in Genesis, it's not my job to prove snakes can't talk. The burden of proof is on you to prove your ridiculous belief that snakes can talk.
Besides, in the real world blood can't atone for shit; this can be proved in three easy steps:
1. In reality, you can't magically remove anything by sacrificing someone, let alone something intangible, such as sin.
2. In reality, superstitious thought is a belief, practice, or rite irrationally maintained by ignorance of the laws of nature or by faith in magic.
3. To believe in such nonsense you must remove all reason from your thinking.
Furthermore:
Presumably you don't believe Joseph smith was magically bestowed the golden plates from an angel. Now think real hard -- I know this may hurt a little -- why don't you believe in that magical outcome?
Presumably you don't believe that the Qur'an was magically revealed to Muhammad by archangel Gabriel -- why don't you believe in that magical outcome?
Presumably you don't believe in Eastern religion's magical reincarnation, where one is, "magically", able to escape from the cycle of death and rebirth and achieve salvation through the attainment of the highest spiritual state. In much the same manner as Christ took the sins upon himself, the Hindu God Shiva swallowed the poison, halahala, from a churning ocean, so that it would magically save creation.
Now, think, of all the reasons, why you don't believe in these superstitious, magical out comes and then you'll start to get the idea why your belief in a magical atonement through a sacrifice is ridiculous and delusional.
And then, you should, equally, see how ridiculous it would be, for me, to ask you:
1. Can you prove that an angel didn't bestow the Golden Plates to Joseph Smith?
2. Can you prove that Muhammad didn't receive the Qur'an from Gabriel?
3. Can you prove that reincarnation doesn't work?
4. Can you prove Shiva didn't save creation by swallowing an ocean full of poison?
Is it beginning to sink in? You have a delusional belief in something without any proof, you make the extraordinary claim of a magical atonement based on nothing but a fairytale book that has zero credibility and your only DUMB-FUCK argument is, "can you prove christ's blood DIDN'T magically, atone for sins". Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof and that burden of proof, is for you and you alone, to validate. You are the lunatic with the extraordinarily, insane magical beliefs -- so prove it.
You haven't proven shit, YOU GOT NOTHING, BUT BULLSHIT!
So I ask again, PROVE IT BITCH!
Jason throws down and says, The self-offering of Christ isn’t comparable to any other sacrifice in Scripture. If you can find any other, sinless, Son of God, who offered himself to save the lives of many, and who was raised incorruptible, I’ll gladly admit you’re right.
Amazingly, In Hindu scripture, it is believed that Lord Shiva is part of the Hindu trinity. Lord Shiva is one of three gods that is an extension of the one supreme being, Brahman.
1. Self-offering of Christ is comparable to Shiva swallowing the poison, in the churning ocean to save all of creation.
2. Lord Shiva is part of the Trimurti (the Hindu Trinity) and is the representation of the three projections of the Supreme Reality, Brahman.
3. Lord Shiva means, "The Pure One" and "the One who purifies everyone by the very utterance of His name."
4. Lord Shiva also means, the One who is eternally pure, or the One who can never have any contamination of the imperfection of Rajas and Tamas.
Again in Hindu Scripture, in much the same manner as Christ took the sins upon himself, Shiva, an extension of the supreme being and incorruptible, swallowed the poison,halhala so that it would save mankind. Shiva's act is celebrated at the Hindu festival Shivatri, also in March at about the same time as Easter.
I said, Yeah that's because your dumb-ass god couldn't get it right the first time around.
Jason using twisted logic says, Actually, it’s because the old law was purposely designed to foreshadow Christ and the new law. Don’t you know anything…?
It just proves that your god is not omniscient and is a shitty designer. He wasted everyone's time with bullshit laws like don't eat shrimp or pork which doesn't for shadow anything. It plainly shows your god is a human construct.
‘Gehenna’ was another name for Hinnom valley. It was just outside Jerusalem city, and the *Jews threw out their rubbish there. They burned fires there all the time. So it became the name for God’s punishment place. People usually translate it as ‘hell’. God will judge people by the way that they think. He will also judge them by the way that they speak. And he will judge them by the way that they behave. God will judge anger. He says that evil insults are like murder.
Yawn. Whenever you have something new and interesting to share, let me know.
Keep yawning big, cause you are going to have to fit the holy dick in your mouth for a long time. Your god is judging you by the way you speak. You are disgusting in the sight of god for calling me names. Keep repenting -- slurp, slurp, slurp.
I said, Mega-retard, when you don't desire something; if you don't want something, if you take no pleasure in something, does that mean you like it and find it acceptable?
Give me a verse that says God found sin offerings unacceptable.
Heb 10:8 After saying above, "SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS AND WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND FOR SIN YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, NOR HAVE YOU TAKEN PLEASURE
Again, if he did not desire sin sacrifices nor did he take pleasure in them, that means he did not find it acceptable. If you do not DESIRE mint chocolate chip ice cream and it gives you no PLEASURE, can you make an honest, logical argument that you find mint chocolate chip ice cream ACCEPTABLE?
But you said, God didn’t, and doesn’t, FORCE ANYONE to obey the laws He decreed. Do you remember, asshole? you said, ANYONE.
Your god has set a precedence in forcing people to do things. Just like in a court of law if you are caught lying you are a liar. God was caught forcing his will on others. There will was subjugated.
Jason strains and says, Therefore, you’re wrong and God did explain the consequences for disobeying Him.
No, it's a vile and demented list of curses, reserved for only the most sadistic and fucked-up Deity, ever imagined, He used fear to control people. If you are a controlled people through fear then your free will is stripped from you.
Jason lies and says, He explained the consequences to Adam & Eve and He explained the consequences to the Israelites. What are you having trouble figuring out?
What are you having trouble figuring out? God only told Adam and Eve that they would surely die the day they ate of the fruit. He doled out more consequences subsequently. So either you are an asshole, or a liar or you haven't taken the time to re-read Genesis and you are only relying on assumptions and memory. You said, God ALWAYS explains the consequences of actions before he punishes? That is completely wrong.
Jason making a demented assertion says, And your point is idiotic since babies don’t have freewill whether God exists or not. Such a retard…
Calling names, Jesus isn't going to like that.
With your twisted logic the killing of babies is morally acceptable. They are still beings who have the right to life just like anyone and should not be used or made to suffer and die as a punishment for a crime committed by someone else. When god made the child sick, caused it to suffer and die -- it's will was forever removed. You are a sick demented psycho-fuck to worship a vile fucking Deity like that.
I said, It has everything to do with free will being stomped on and David not following god. God's chosen people had no CHOICE in the matter and they were not the ones disobeying and 70,000 of them suffered and died from a horrendous disease. NO CHOICE, NO FREE WILL.
Jason, as usual can't comprehend says, And like I said, this has nothing to do with freewill or choosing to follow God or not. Thanks.
It absolutely does. By causing them to have a disease and to suffer and die at no fault of their own is to remove their free will. By doing this, god makes people choose him, otherwise he will cause you to suffer and die. NO FREE WILL.
I said, First off, dumb shit, I'm saying god controlled his children with fear, who were too scared to disobey, while the rest were superstitious, mindless, blind sheep, too ignorant to know that their free will was broken. Works for me. And secondly, in scripture anyone that wasn't a mindless, ignorant sheep, was, controlled by fear -- too scared to disobey god. NO FREE WILL.
Jason says, Prove it.
Ephesians 5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
Luke 1:50 And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation.
Collosians 3:22 Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eye service, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God.
I said, God used the threat of force and force to control his people. Most became broken and obeyed god's will, others were sheep, who blindly followed, and others, who were either sheep or broken -- their free will effectively taken from them for any duration, at some time, finally, rose up out of the shackles of god's demented, and insidious, plan of controlling his children. Just because they finally took matters into their own hands and released themselves from god's brutal mental bondage doesn't mean that they had free will the entire time.
So they did have free will.
In the real word yes. In the superstitious world of the Bible some had no free will, because through fear, they obeyed god, some were controlled by action of violence, some were made, magically, to obey, while some had no free will and eventually broke from the bondage of the supposed will of god.
Moving into reality and away from the book of fairy tales here are a couple of extraneous free will contradictions to deal with:
1) If your god is "omniscient"(knows the future set of events, including our "choices"), then we only have the illusion of "free will", at best.
2) If we are all "sinners" by birth, and if "sin" is "evil", then we don't have the "free will" to resist "evil".
NO FREE WILL.
--S.
Sun May 25, 04:48:00 PM 2008
dannydamagichobo said...
I do not understand why this conversation - turned - argument simply stopped here. Perhaps there is mroe and I simply cannot see it. But if this argument did stop here, allow me to say a couple of words.
This is directed to Jason:
I do not understand why you are putting up with Sconner's constant abuse towards you. And for whateverreason you are doing this for, it doesn't seem to be changing his mind. He obviously loves (or at least loved, seeming that he stopped commenting after this) arguing, cussing, and degrading you, and seeing that you continue to engage him in conversation is feeding fuel t the fire. He doesn't want to be changed, he wants to escape from his problems, and one of those ways is by "talking" to you. He obviously cannot see your way, and I personally do notbelieve he will simply by you giving your logic. However, I also see him bringing up rather good points and you are simply avoiding them, or pretending to not see his point. (Or perhaps you don't, and if you truly don't, please forgive that last remark).
Next, this is for Sconner:
I understand that you're in pain, and that you probably don't want to hear me saying this, but you need to be honest with yourself. This is bigger than just god commiting what you believe are atrocities, and these "reasons" you have for not believing, trusting, and loving god are all bunk. You simply don't believe, trust, or love him,and you want to justify why you don't with those reasons, simply so that you won't have to be alone. I know you probably will start spouting you're bitterness all on me now, and I honestly don't know how anything I've said or going to say is going to help you. (Which of course you'll probably wonder, "then why the hell is he even bothering?") Indeed, I can't really do much for you except to simplyencourage you to be more honest about yourself. That's all.
p.s. Spouting swearwords every other sentence do little to help your arguments...all they do is convey how bitter you are.
Tue Dec 16, 03:44:00 AM 2008
Luke said...
Great stuff. Are you on reddit? If so, I want to friend you. If not, sign up real quick and I will friend you. :)
Fri Apr 10, 11:42:00 AM 2009
Nephilim22 said...
I was wondering if anyone knows any good sites or books that present solid arguments against the Catholic concept of Natural Law. There are some theists driving me nuts with that crap and I have no idea currently how to counter it.
Tue Apr 14, 12:05:00 PM 2009
Nephilim22 said...
By the way, all of Jason's nonsense on here reminds me of a very special Biblical passage in Judges. Specifically, Judges 11:29-39, where God asks Jephthah to burn his daughter alive in thanks for God helping him win a battle. Disgusting, primitive deity.
Tue Apr 14, 07:47:00 PM 2009
dannydamagichobo said...
Actually, God doesn't ask Jephthah to do anything. It says that Jephthah made the vow as a "trade" with God: If God helps him win the batle with the Ammonites, then he will offer the first person who comes into his house to greet him to be offered as a payment. It was based on the foolish thinking that many people have: That if you do something good, then something good will come in return, or, if I may put it this way, a child saying to his friend, "If you let me borrow your toy, I'll let you have a piece of my candy."
It had less to do with thanking God and more to do with trading services.
Wed Apr 15, 11:44:00 AM 2009
dannydamagichobo said...
Nephilim, what exactly are you trying to counter within the Catholic concept of natural law?
Wed Apr 15, 11:49:00 AM 2009
thebibleisstupid said...
The Jephthah story is my favorite bible story, because it finally took the remnants of my belief in this idiotic book and smashed them on the rocks. After being horrified by the contents of this story, I started to recognize all of the other silly bible stories for what they are: mythology. And not very good mythology either. Certainly the Greeks and Romans had better writers.
Wed Apr 15, 11:05:00 PM 2009
matt311 said...
Well, Shakespeare referenced the Jephthah story in "Hamlet" (presumably for an allegorical purpose), so...
Oh, I give up. You know what I can't stand anymore? Biblical allegories: Because there's nothing worthwhile one can learn from a book in which civil rights are spat upon, genocide is committed FAR too often, and a maniacally jealous god wreaks havoc on his "Chosen People".
That's why.
Sat Apr 18, 06:37:00 PM 2009
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