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 21 August 2012Richard Dawkins: The Playboy Interview
OK, I guess I have to buy another issue of Playboy.
(The last one that I was forced to buy was back in  February 2007, when my post on God's killings was mentioned in its "Raw Data" section.)
But the September 2012 issue has something even better: a long interview with Richard Dawkins.
Playboy and richard dawkins
You can read some of it here, but to get the whole thing you've got to buy the issue. (I know it's a bit embarrassing, but it has to be done.)
The thing that struck me the most was this question about the Bible:
PLAYBOY: You’ve read the Bible.
DAWKINS: I haven’t read it all, but my knowledge of the Bible is a lot better than most fundamentalist Christians’.
And that's probably true enough. Most Christians haven't read the Bible; it's a lot easier to believe in the Bible if you've never read it.
Still, I'm surprised that Dawkins hasn't read the Bible, the whole goddamned thing from cover to cover.
Of course, it's not necessary to read it all to know enough about it to reject it. The first and last few verses are more than enough:
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Genesis 1:1
If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book  ... He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Revelation 22:18-20
Dawkins knows enough about "the plagues that are written in this book" and the nasty nature of its imaginary god to reject both the book and its supposed author. I don't know how anyone could do otherwise.
But enough of all that. I've got to go get the September issue of Playboy.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
August 22 Update: I got the issue and guess what? The entire interview is included in the above link. But don't let that stop you from buying a copy -- for the pictures. (There are three photos of Dawkins that aren't included in the online interview.)
Posted by Steve Wells at 8/21/2012 11:08:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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4 comments:
 Jonathan Booth said...
Whew! I thought you were gonna say there was a Dawkins centerfold picture! I haven't read it either from cover to cover - how can you?!?! It's confusing, repetitive and boring!
Tue Aug 21, 01:25:00 PM 2012 
 No said...
Thanks for taking a bullet for the team on this one Steve, this is a vibrant exemple of going to the source like they say.
Personnaly I never read Playboy cover to cover but I should.
Tue Aug 21, 06:59:00 PM 2012 
 Grundy said...
The Bible is a chore to get through. They keep translating it different ways to make it more readable. Maybe if it was in txting speak the kids would go for it more.
Wed Aug 22, 05:14:00 PM 2012 
 Stephen said...
Haz U seen Lolcat Bible? Teh kidz luvs it!
http://www.lolcatbible.com/index.php?title=Genesis_1
Steve Weeks
Thu Aug 23, 04:28:00 AM 2012 
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 15 August 2012The Judith massacre: hang ye up this head upon our walls
In my last post we saw how God helped Judith cut off the head of Holofernes. It probably looked something like this.




Not a pretty picture, eh?
But God had a good reason for inspiring this act of barbarism: he did it to encourage the troops and to terrorize the opposition.
Here's how it happened.
When Judith returned to the Israelites, she took Holofernes' head out of the wallet, and showed it to them, assuring everyone that no sex was involved in the murderous deed.
She brought forth the head of Holofernes out of the wallet, and shewed it them, saying: Behold the head of Holofernes the general of the army of the Assyrians, and behold his canopy, wherein he lay in his drunkenness, where the Lord our God slew him by the hand of a woman. ... The Lord hath not suffered me his handmaid to be defiled. Judith 13:19-20 

Achior (an unbelieving Ammonite that happened to be around at the time) had this to say about it.
God ... hath cut off the head of all the unbelievers this night by my hand. Judith 13:27
He was, in fact, so impressed with the whole thing that he decided to become a Jew right then and there, cutting off his own foreskin to seal the deal. Glory!
Then Achior seeing the power that the God of Israel had wrought, leaving the religion of the gentiles, he believed God, and circumcised the flesh of his foreskin, and was joined to the people of Israel. Judith 14:6
Judith told the Israelites to hang Holofernes' head on the wall and wait a bit until the Assyrians see the headless body of Holofernes wallowing around in his own blood. Then, while they're freaking out about that, attack them while they're running away. God will help them kill them all.
Judith said to all the people: Hear me, my brethren, hang ye up this head upon our walls. ... when the captains of them shall run to the tent of Holofernes, and shall find him without his head wallowing in his blood, fear shall fall upon them.And when you shall know that they are fleeing, go after them securely, for the Lord will destroy them under your feet. Judith 14:1-5
So that's what they did. They hung Holofernes' head on the wall. Then they all screamed and took off after the fleeing Assyrian army.
They hung up the head of Holofernes upon the walls, and every man took his arms, and they sent out with a great noise and shouting. Judith 14:7
Meanwhile one of the Assyrians went into Holofernes' tent and saw his headless body sweltering in his blood. So he screamed bloody murder and rent his garments.
Vagao ... perceived ... the body of Holofernes, lying upon the ground, without the head, sweltering in his blood, he cried out with a loud voice, with weeping, and rent his garments. Judith 14:14
Then he ran out and told all the people.
He ran out to the people, and said, One Hebrew woman hath made confusion in the house of king Nabuchodonosor: for behold Holofernes lieth upon the ground, and his head is not upon him. Judith 14:15-16
When the Assyrian chiefs and army heard about that, they did what all biblical characters do in such cases: they tore up their clothes and started screaming.
When the chiefs of the army of the Assyrians had heard this, they all rent their garments ... And there was a very great cry in the midst of their camp. Judith 14:17-18
The entire Assyrian army was so shook up by the whole thing that they all ran away.
When all the army heard that Holofernes was beheaded, courage and counsel fled from them, and being seized with trembling and fear they thought only to save themselves by flight. Judith 15:1
The Israelites chased them as they ran, killing them all (with God's help, of course) with the edge of the sword.
The children of Israel pursuing in one body, defeated all that they could find ... with the edge of the sword. Judith 15:4-6
How's that for a likely story?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Since the text doesn't say how many were killed in this God-planned and assisted slaughter, I just gave it the usual 1000.
See here for many more images of Judith and Holofernes.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
God's next killing: Ananias and Sapphira
Posted by Steve Wells at 8/15/2012 01:30:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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2 comments:
 Stephen said...
Some good biblical snuff porn there, Steve! I was especially glad to see the picture of Judith putting the head into her wallet, just like the scripture said. It's pretty clear that the Vikings used that episode as the inspiration for their successful advertising campaign for Capital One... you know, "What's in YOUR wallet?" :-D
See it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7-V9DVAPnQ
Steve Weeks
Wed Aug 15, 05:52:00 PM 2012 
 nazani said...
Beheading the enemy leader in his sleep/drunkenness in order to save your nation doesn't rank very high on my barbarism scale.
Funny how none of the depictions of the act that I've seen show her standing over him, giving a hearty down-swing, which is the only logical way to behead someone.
Sat Aug 18, 02:17:00 PM 2012 
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 14 August 2012Judith is blessed above all women (for cutting off a sleeping man's head)
If you were to ask Paul Ryan (or any other Catholic) who is the most blessed of all woman in the Bible, he'd say, without the slightest hesitation, Ayn Rand.
OK, just kidding. Ayn Rand isn't in the Bible (not even Paul Ryan's Bible). Every Catholic (even Paul Ryan) would say that Mary the mother of Jesus is the most blessed of all woman.
And there's some evidence for that. Here, after all, is how the angel Gabriel addressed Mary in gospel of Luke:
Hail [Mary], full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women. Luke 1:28
It's the first part of the "Hail Mary" that Catholics say 53 times when saying the Rosary.
But there are two other women in the Bible that could qualify for the Most Blessed of All Women award.
Remember Jael? You know, the one that drove a tent stake through a sleeping man's skull?
Here's what the Bible said about her:
Blessed above women shall Jael ... be, blessed shall she be above women ... She put her hand to the nail ... and with the hammer she smote Sisera, she smote off his head, when she had pierced and stricken through his temples. Judges 5:24
So Jael is blessed above all women -- including Mary, I guess.
But there's one more competitor -- Judith.
Her story is found in the Book of Judith, which is in the Catholic Bible, but is considered apocryphal by Protestants. Here's her story.
Judith was a beautiful widow who fasted all the time (except on the sabbath) and wore haircloth on her loins.
And she wore haircloth upon her loins, and fasted all the days of her life, except the sabbaths, and new moons, and the feasts of the house of Israel.  And she was exceedingly beautiful.  Judith 8:6-7
She asked God to help her kill her enemies the way he helped Simeon slaughter the newly circumcised Hivites in the Dinah/Shechem love story massacre.
O Lord God of my father Simeon, who gavest him a sword to execute vengeance against strangers, who had defiled by their uncleanness, and uncovered the virgin unto confusion: And who gavest their wives to be made a prey, and their daughters into captivity ... who were zealous with thy zeal: assist ... me. Judith 9:2-3
And the prayer worked. God, the great beautician, made Judith even more beautiful, so she could seduce and murder the Assyrian general, Holofernes.
The Lord also gave her more beauty ... so that she appeared to all men's eyes incomparably lovely. Judith 10:4
The heart of Holofernes was smitten, for he was burning with the desire of her. Judith 12:16
She lied to him about her intentions, partied with him in his tent; then, after he fell asleep in a drunken stupor, she cut off his head.
Holofernes was made merry on her occasion, and drank exceeding much wine, so much as he had never drunk in his life. Judith 12:20
Holofernes lay on his bed, fast asleep, being exceedingly drunk.  Judith 13: 4
Judith stood before the bed praying ... Saying: Strengthen me, O Lord ... that it might be done by thee. And when she had said this, she ... loosed his sword ... And ... she took him by the hair of his head ... And she struck twice upon his neck, and cut off his head. Judith 13: 6-10
And for that act, Judith is declared to be blessed above all women upon the earth.
Blessed art thou, O daughter, by the Lord the most high God, above all women upon the earth ... God ... hath cut off the head of all the unbelievers this night by my hand. Judith 13:23-27
So now you see my problem, don't you? Who is the most blessed woman to ever live? Mary, Jael, or Judith?
I think it has to be Judith. Mary and Jael are "blessed among women," but Judith is "blessed above all women." So I think Judith wins the gold.
But maybe someone should ask Paul Ryan just to make sure.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Guess I have to add another killing to God's list!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
God's next killing: The Judith massacre
Posted by Steve Wells at 8/14/2012 10:56:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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13 comments:
 Jonathan Booth said...
How can the book of Judith be accepted by some christians and not by others?
Tue Aug 14, 01:18:00 PM 2012 
 Steve Wells said...
Good question, Jonathan.
There's always been debate among believers about which books should be included in the Bible. The Catholics and Orthodox went with the Septagint (a 3rd century BCE greek translation of the Jewish scriptures) for the Old Testament canon, while the Protestants didn't. So there are seven more books in the Catholic/Orthodox Bible than there are in the Protestant Bible.
Tue Aug 14, 01:49:00 PM 2012 
 Stephen said...
Well, he wasn't really *asleep*, he was drunk, but what the heck. The thing that piqued my interest was this:
13:11 And after a while she went out, and delivered the head of Holofernes to her maid, and bade her put it into her wallet.
What the heck kind of wallets did they have in those biblical times?!?!?
Steve Weeks
Tue Aug 14, 08:23:00 PM 2012 
 Steve Wells said...
Well, it 13:4 says he was "fast asleep" and "exceedingly drunk." So I guess he was both.
And yeah, that wallet thing is kind of cute. My wife has some purses that'd be big enough to stuff a head in. She might even have one or two in there. I should check.
Tue Aug 14, 08:38:00 PM 2012 
 Steve Wells said...
In my comment to Jonathan, I misspelled Septuagint. Sorry about that -- and thanks to Stephen Weeks for the correction.
Tue Aug 14, 08:43:00 PM 2012 
 skanksta said...
You haven't done the apocrypha/REAL books yet for god's killings ?
:)
So excited..., does that means we get to look forward to some more bible stats on which is more evil per line of holy book - Catholic or Protestant ?
And more blogging !
Get to work Steve - no rest for the wicked !
Wed Aug 15, 03:28:00 AM 2012 
 Jonathan Booth said...
Thanks for the reply Steve - by the way, I love this site! I always wanted to believe in the bible but the more I read it, the more confused and doubtful I became! Any information on why a book would be cut vs included and who had the authority to do such a thing? It seems like they could have cut quite a few more out of the old testament for sure.
Wed Aug 15, 08:34:00 AM 2012 
 Stephen said...
Jonathan Booth said...
"Any information on why a book would be cut vs included and who had the authority to do such a thing?"
If you haven't read any of Bart Ehrman's works, I recommend starting with "Misquoting Jesus- the story behind who changed the bible and why".
(http://www.amazon.com/dp/0060738170/?tag=mh0b-20&hvadid=50469747&ref=pd_sl_61wa3ybwz6_e )
Steve Weeks
Wed Aug 15, 03:39:00 PM 2012 
 Steve Wells said...
Jonathan,
About the Apocrypha/Deuterocanonical books - there's a good introduction in the New Oxford Annotated Bible that includes a discussion of the debate over whether or not these books should be included in the Bible.
Thu Aug 16, 08:34:00 AM 2012 
 bittersweetend said...
Interesting post I never read the book of judith but this is a good topic
Thu Aug 16, 07:01:00 PM 2012 
 www Bible said...
There is a difference between the blessing on Mary which was a divine blessing by God and the blessing on Jael which was the elevate her as heroic above the other tent dwellers. "Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be, blessed shall she be above women in the tent (Judges 5:24)." The translations of the Hebrew words tell the difference.
Sat Sep 01, 10:07:00 AM 2012 
 Stephen said...
WayWhoppingWacky.Bible said:
There is a difference between the blessing on Mary which was a divine blessing by God and the blessing on Jael which was the elevate (sic) her as heroic above the other tent dwellers.
This is just more made-up bullshit, cherry-picked and interpreted to suit your delusion. Sorry.
Steve Weeks
Sat Sep 01, 07:35:00 PM 2012 
 Komadori said...
"What the heck kind of wallets did they have in those biblical times?!?!?" Steve Weeks
Reminds me of the credit card commercials. All we need now is Judith looking to the camera as she dangles a human head ala Game of Thrones or Clash of the Titans, "What's in Your Wallet?"
:>
I just came across your blog. It's great! I'll be following, from here on. :)
Sun Sep 09, 05:35:00 AM 2012 
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 07 August 20122 Nephi 31-33: Nephi makes an end of his prophesying and proposes a simple test
Well, we've finally made it to the end of 2 Nephi, where Nephi makes an end of his prophesying.
And now I, Nephi, make an end of my prophesying. 2 Nephi 31:1
And Nephi is quite proud of what he's written; it suffices him, since he has spoken plainly according to the plainness of his prophesying.
The things which I have written sufficeth me ... I shall speak unto you plainly, according to the plainness of my prophesying. 31:2
For his soul delights and glories in plainness.
For my soul delighteth in plainness ... I glory in plainness.  31:3, 33:6
And though he'd like to say more, he can't, because the Spirit stopped his utterance, leaving him to mourn because of the unbelief of people who just plain don't care about plainness.
And now I, Nephi, cannot say more; the Spirit stoppeth mine utterance, and I am left to mourn because of the unbelief ... for they will not search knowledge, nor understand great knowledge, when it is given unto them in plainness, even as plain as word can be. 32:7
But Nephi has written what he's written and he thinks it's of great worth.
I, Nephi, have written what I have written, and I esteem it as of great worth. 33.3
And you'll agree with him about that, unless you're controlled by the devil.
No man will be angry at the words which I have written save he shall be of the spirit of the devil. 33:5
So if you believe in Christ, you'll believe in Nephi's words, because they are the words of Christ and Christ gave them to Nephi (550 years before Jesus was born).
If ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me. 33:10
If you doubt that, here's a simple test: Ask Christ to show you that Nephi's words are Christ's words.
And if they are not the words of Christ, judge ye -- for Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory, that they are his words. 33:11
That'll work, guaranteed.

Or it better, anyway. Because if it doesn't, God will condemn you to hell on the last day.
And you that will not partake of the goodness of God, and respect the words of the Jews, and also my words, and the words which shall proceed forth out of the mouth of the Lamb of God, behold, I bid you an everlasting farewell, for these words shall condemn you at the last day. 33:14
Good luck on the test.
Posted by Steve Wells at 8/07/2012 08:21:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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3 comments:
 TWF said...
Well, I bid Nephi an everlasting farewell as well. :-)
There's nothing that quite says "I'm telling the truth" like a threat of eternal damnation for not believing.
Tue Aug 07, 11:37:00 AM 2012 
 Stephen said...
I, Nehpets, declare it a marvelous work and a wonder that thou hast been able to finish that chapter. It seemeth me that Mark Twain was righteous when he did call the Book of Mor(m)on "Chloroform in Print".
Here endeth the revelation. I, Nehpets, will see thee at the testing center.
Steve Weeks
Wed Aug 08, 04:17:00 AM 2012 
 Brendon Carpenter said...
On my mission I'd use these chapters to tell Catholics and Evangelicals that were stuck in their ways: "Look, if you believe in Christ, you'll believe in the Book of Mormon, and if you don't, you'll be damned at judgment." Yeah, I was an asshole. People gave me the time of day to listen to my message and I just kept on bugging them until I could either baptize them or condemn them.
Now it seems to me that the Book of Mormon author(s) were beating around the bush at this point. "Should we throw in a couple verses of condemnation?"
"No, no, we need to have Nephi confirm over and over that what we've written is very plain. I mean, what we've written so far is obviously really dry and boring, so we'll have to get the readers to think PLAIN is GOOD. Right, okay."
"Come on, come on, Oliver! I really want to throw in those verses about eternal damnation!! On with it already!"
Wed Aug 08, 02:47:00 PM 2012 
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 A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
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Dwindling In Unbelief



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 02 August 2012Billy Graham and Mark 7:9: No picking and choosing allowed!
(You must stone to death your disobedient children.)
God, I love Billy Graham's answers. And they're getting better all the time.
Here, for example, is L.K.'s July 31 question:
I find it inspiring to read the Bible, but I can’t go along with those who say it’s the divine Word of God, because frankly I find some of it kind of hard to swallow. Why can’t we just choose the parts we agree with and leave the rest alone?
And Billy Graham's answer:
We could do this, of course; many people actually do exactly that — picking and choosing what they’ll believe in the Bible while rejecting the rest. They are like the people of whom Jesus said, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!” (Mark 7:9).
So, Yes L.K., the Bible has some awful stuff in it. But you can't just pick and choose what to believe: you have to believe and obey it all -- just like Jesus said in Mark 7:9.
But what was Jesus talking about in Mark 7:9? To understand that, you need to look at the context. Here are the relevant verses from Mark 7.
7:5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?
7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
7:10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
In this passage, Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment of God: "He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death."
The "commandment of God" that Jesus referred to is found in Leviticus 20:9.
For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.
And Jesus had a good point here. The Bible is clear about children -- those that curse their parents (Leviticus 20:9), or strike them (Exodus 21:15), or refuse to obey them (Deuteronomy 21:18-21) are to be killed, in the latter case by stoning to death. But the Bible is much less clear about washing hands before eating.
So don't worry too much about washing up before meals. There's not much in the Bible about it and Jesus didn't bother with it. But if your kids disobey you, you know what you have to do.
You don't have to ask Billy Graham about it. He and Jesus have already answered that question for you.


Posted by Steve Wells at 8/02/2012 01:50:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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7 comments:
 No said...
For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.
Mom and dad I can't thank you enough for not taking the Bible litterally !
I can't begin to imagine the madness around when this divine decree actually made sense to someone.
Like Sam Harris says we come from people who used to put babies in post holes so their building can be protected by the gods.
If this verse doesn't guarantee believers that the Bible (OT at least) is the work of iron age people than I don't know what could possibly ring a bell since this verse is about childrens.
Fri Aug 03, 04:49:00 PM 2012 
 Sabio Lantz said...
Very well said. The Jesus who is loving and not Jewish is not present in these verses. Who let these verses slip?
Slips like that make me think Jesus may have been a real character -- and a cranky one at that.
Mon Aug 06, 04:25:00 AM 2012 
 Sabio Lantz said...
ooops, forgot to follow. Have you ever consider not moderating comments?
Mon Aug 06, 04:26:00 AM 2012 
 Steve Wells said...
Yes, Sabio, I have tried not moderating comments, but I found it too hard to keep out the spam, drivel, and vitriol.
Mon Aug 06, 08:20:00 AM 2012 
 Stephen said...
Steve Wells said...
"Yes, Sabio, I have tried not moderating comments, but I found it too hard to keep out the spam, drivel, and vitriol."
I know what you mean, Steve... but sometimes that vitriol is really entertaining! ;-)
Steve Weeks
Wed Aug 08, 12:05:00 PM 2012 
 Julia - Finding My Way Softly said...
I have to admit that for years those commandments, and the idea that cursing my parents was evil, kept me from disclosing the incest and physical abuse that happened to me as a child.
I wonder if parents who beat their children were just practicing for when their children finally cursed them? Seems kind of chicken and egg to me.
BTW, found your blog through MSP. I am trying to check out at least five new blogs a week. I am enjoying yours!
Julia
poetrysansonions.blogspot.com
Mon Aug 13, 02:45:00 AM 2012 
 nazani said...
These verses were explained away to me as requiring a "formal" curse before the death penalty was necessary. I guess a formal curse would involve reading a magical spell against your parent, and killing a chicken may be involved. Just yelling "Dang you, Meemaw!" does not meet the Dark Powers' standards for a sincere, well-crafted curse.
Sat Aug 18, 02:32:00 PM 2012 
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Dwindling In Unbelief



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 28 September 2012Jacob 3: Repent or "their skins will be whiter than yours."
Remember how God cursed the Lamanites (Native Americans) by darkening their skin? Well, he'll do it to you too, if you don't repent. That is the lesson of Jacob 3.
Back 2 Nephi 5, in God cursed the Lamanites, causing "a skin of blackness to come upon them" to make them appear repulsive to the "white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome" Nephites.
And it worked, too. The Nephites hated the Lamanites "because of their filthiness" and dark skins. But God says that the filthy Lamanites are more righteous than the Nephites, because they haven't committed whoredoms by having more than one wife like the Nephites (and  Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and Mitt Romney's great grandfather).
The Lamanites ... whom ye hate because of their filthiness and the cursing which hath come upon their skins, are more righteous than you; for they have not forgotten the commandment of the Lord, which was given unto our father -- that they should have save it were one wife, and concubines they should have none, and there should not be whoredoms committed among them. Jacob 3:5
 God warns the Nephites that unless they repent, he will make their skin even darker than that of the Lamanites.
Unless ye shall repent of your sins that their skins will be whiter than yours. Jacob 3:8
After delivering God's dark-skin warning, Jacob spoke about many more things, only 1 percent of which he included in his small plates. But you can read all about them in the larger plates.
I, Jacob, spake many more things ... And a hundredth part of the proceedings of this people, which now began to be numerous, cannot be written upon these plates; but many of their proceedings are written upon the larger plates. Jacob 12-13
Jacob's small plates are called the plates of Jacob, which were somehow made by the hand of Nephi after Nephi died.
These plates are called the plates of Jacob, and they were made by the hand of Nephi. Jacob 3:14
And that's all Jacob has to say about that.
And I make an end of speaking these words. Jacob 3:14b
Posted by Steve Wells at 9/28/2012 11:37:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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2 comments:
 TWF said...
How in the world did anti-polygamist sentiment end up in the BOM? I never would have expected that.
Fri Sep 28, 12:14:00 PM 2012 
 Stephen said...
Ahem. In keeping with the format of the BOM...
"And I, (state your name), make an end of speaking these words." Jacob 3:14b
:lol:
And I just love reading the book... it is SOOOOoooo badly written! I can only take a couple verses at a time, though
Steve Weeks
Sat Sep 29, 07:00:00 PM 2012 
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 25 September 2012Mr. Deity & The Signs (Part Deux)
I'd say something about it, but I don't want to spoil it.
Just watch.

Posted by Steve Wells at 9/25/2012 03:39:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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 25 September 2012What if we could edit the Bible? (Opening Karl Giberson's can of worms)
Is there a Bible-believer who hasn't asked that question?
Yes, I'm sure there are many, perhaps even most. Because most people who believe in the Bible have never read it (all of it, that is, not just carefully selected bits and pieces).
But what about believers who have read it? Have they asked themselves that question?
I suspect that most have, since they believe that Bible is the pure word of God, and yet when they read it (the whole damned thing), they find that it's about as pure and inspired as the rantings of their drunk uncle at last year's Christmas party.
Take Karl Giberson, for example. He is a Sophisticated Theologian (a term "Coyned" by Jerry Coyne) who is ashamed and disgusted by the Bible, while he pretends to believe it is the inspired word of God.
Here are a few quotes from his recent HuffPo article, "If only we could edit the Bible."
I have often wondered--quietly and usually to myself--what would happen if we could edit the Bible.  Wouldn't it be good if some ecumenical committee could go through the Old Testament and take out all the language about stoning people to death for breaking various rules? Or maybe soften that passage where the Psalmist talks about bashing the heads of the babies of his enemies against the rocks? We could also fix some of those New Testament misquotes of the Old Testament.
Suggesting this is heretical, of course, but it seems to me that it would be better, in some ways at least, to edit the Bible than to ignore it....
He doesn't, of course, follow through with his suggestion. He leaves all the nasty stuff in the Bible alone and continues to ignore it (while pretending to believe it). That's sophisticated theology for you.

So I thought I'd give it a go and help believers relieve themselves of the embarrassing parts of the Bible.
Here is a short list of verses from the Old and New Testaments that every believer would like to get rid of, but can't. (These verses are listed on the endpapers of the SAB book, which will be available in November.)
Old Testament verses that Karl Giberson should edit
Genesis 19.8  “Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, an do ye to them as is good in your eyes.”
Genesis 22.2  “Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and ... offer him there for a burnt offering.”
 Exodus 21.20-21  “If a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and ... if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.
 Exodus 22.18  “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.”
 Leviticus 20.13  “If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.”
 Leviticus 20.14  “If a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they.”
 Leviticus 24.16  “He that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put  to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him.”
 Numbers 11.1  “And when the people complained, it displeased the LORD: and the LORD  heard it; and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the LORD burnt among  them, and consumed them.”
Numbers 21.6  “And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.”
Numbers 31.15-18  “And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.”
Deuteronomy 25.11-12  “When two men strive together on with another, and the wife of the one ... putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets: Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her.”
Deuteronomy 32.39-42  “I kill ... I wound ... I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh.”
1 Samuel 15.2-3  “Thus saith the LORD of hosts, ... Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.”
1 Samuel 18.27  “David arose and went, he and his men, and slew of the Philistines two hundred men; and David brought their foreskins … And Saul gave him Michal his daughter to wife.”
2 Samuel 12.14-18  “Because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the  enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall  surely die. And the LORD struck the child  ... on the seventh day, that the child died. “
2 Kings 2.23-24  “As he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.”
2 Kings 9.6-8  “Thus saith the LORD God … I will cut off from Ahab him that pisseth against the wall.”
2 Kings 18.27  “Hath he not sent me to the men which sit on the wall, that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own piss with you?”
2 Chronicles 21.14-15  “Behold, with a great plague will the LORD smite thy people, and thy children, and thy wives, and all thy goods. And thou shalt have great sickness by disease of thy bowels, until thy bowels fall out.”
Psalm 58.10  “The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.”
Isaiah 45.7  “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil:  I the LORD do all these things.”
Isaiah 49.26  “I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine.”
Jeremiah 19.9  “I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh  of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend.”
 Jeremiah 48.10  “Cursed  be he that keepeth back his sword from blood.”
Ezekiel 23.20  "For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses."
Malachi 2.3  “Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces.”
New Testament verses that (as Romney would say) could be stated more elegantly
Matthew 5.29-30  “If thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out .... And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off … for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.”
Matthew 10.35-36  “I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the  daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in  law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.”
Matthew 10.37  “He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me:  and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.”
Matthew 13.12  “Whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.”
Matthew13.13-15  “Therefore speak I to them in parables ... lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.”
Matthew 16.28  “Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not  taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.”
Mark 16.16  “He that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark16.17-18  “These signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it  shall not hurt them.”
Luke 14.26  “If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and  wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he  cannot be my disciple.”
Luke 19.27  “But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.”
John 3.18  “He that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”
John 3.36  “He that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
John 12.40  “He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.”
1 Corinthians 7.1  “It is good for a man not to touch a woman.”
1 Corinthians 7.29  “The time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none.”
1 Corinthians 14.34-35  “Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak .... If they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home.”
Ephesians 5.22  “Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.”
Ephesian 6.5  “Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ.”
2 Thessalonians 1.7-9  “The Lord Jesus ... In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God ... Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction.”
2 Thessalonians 2.11-12  “God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned.”
1 Timothy 2.11-12   “Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence … Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing.”
Revelation 14.3-4  “The hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth … these are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins”
Revelation 14.11  “And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever.“
Revelation 14.19-20  “The great winepress of the wrath of God ... was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles.”
Revelation 19.13  “He was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.”
Revelation 21.8  “The fearful, and unbelieving ... shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and  brimstone.”
Revelation 22.20  “Surely I come quickly.”
This is just a start, of course. I have thousands more to suggest.
If you're a Bible-believer, let me know what you think? Are there any verses on my list that you are proud of? If so let me know.
Posted by Steve Wells at 9/25/2012 12:00:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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2 comments:
 Sarah Johnson said...
“He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.” My family definately agree with this.
Tue Sep 25, 02:43:00 PM 2012 
 Stephen said...
Sarah, I think your family may be seriously messed up.
;-)
Steve Weeks
Wed Sep 26, 06:53:00 PM 2012 
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 21 September 2012Did God curse Mitt Romney by darkening his skin?
It's a fair question. Really.
You see, some people have noticed that Mitt's skin looked noticeably darker when he was interviewed by Univision yesterday.
So the question is this: Did Romney use make-up to darken his skin in order to appear more Latino to the Univision viewers? Or was there something else going on? Something that went on all the time in Romney's second favorite book, the Book of Mormon.
That book makes it clear that the Mormon God prefers white skin and punishes people by darkening their skin.
And he [God] had caused the cursing to come upon them [the Lamanites] ... wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them. 2 Nephi 5:21
The Lamanites ... were led by their evil nature that they became wild, and ferocious, and a bloodthirsty people, full of idolatry and filthiness; feeding upon beasts of prey; dwelling in tents, and wandering about in the wilderness with a short skin girdle about their loins and their heads shaven.... And many of them did eat nothing save it was raw meat; and they were continually seeking to destroy us" Enos 1:20
He did it to the Lamanites (Native Americans) and he did it to black people (the descendants of Cain). Maybe he did it to Romney.
Here is how Governor Romney looked four years ago when he ran for president.


And here's how he looked in the Univision interview.
Mexican Mitt
I'd say he doesn't look nearly so "fair and delightsome" now, with that "skin of blackness" all over him. I wonder if he's also become  "wild, and ferocious, ... bloodthirsty ... full of idolatry and filthiness; feeding upon beasts of prey" and  "wandering about in the wilderness with a short skin girdle" upon his loins.
It's hard to say. But it's a fair question.
I guess we'll have to see how he acts on the campaign trail and at the debates.  I can hardly wait.
Posted by Steve Wells at 9/21/2012 05:41:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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1 comment:
 Stephen said...
I went to the "FAIR"... ;-)
Lots of good oxymormon apologetics, and sooooo much better-written than the Book of Mormon. I liked the part about how blacks weren't allowed to be clergy, but "the origin of the ban is unknown". Laaaaawlzzzz!
Steve Weeks
Fri Sep 21, 07:24:00 PM 2012 
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 21 September 2012No one was murdered (or blinded) because of this image
In my last post, I displayed the recent Muhammad cartoons that are causing such an uproar in the Muslim world. I hope no one was blinded by looking at them.
Here is a similar (but nsfw) cartoon that was featured in recent Onion article, with the caption, "No one was murdered because of this image."
Here is the text of the article:
WASHINGTON—Following the publication of the image above, in which the most cherished figures from multiple religious faiths were depicted engaging in a lascivious sex act of considerable depravity, no one was murdered, beaten, or had their lives threatened, sources reported Thursday. The image of the Hebrew prophet Moses high-fiving Jesus Christ as both are having their erect penises vigorously masturbated by Ganesha, all while the Hindu deity anally penetrates Buddha with his fist, reportedly went online at 6:45 p.m. EDT, after which not a single bomb threat was made against the organization responsible, nor did the person who created the cartoon go home fearing for his life in any way. Though some members of the Jewish, Christian, Hindu, and Buddhist faiths were reportedly offended by the image, sources confirmed that upon seeing it, they simply shook their heads, rolled their eyes, and continued on with their day.
And no one was murdered or blinded, at least as far as I know.
Which makes me wonder, what is wrong with non-Muslim believers these days?
I'm thinking especially about the Christians and Jews here. Haven't they read Leviticus 24:16?
He that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him.
That is about as clear as it gets in the Bible -- Blasphemers are to be stoned to death. (There is no Leviticus 24:16 analog in the Quran.)
So why aren't Christians and Jews calling for the deaths of the Onion blasphemers?
And why are only Muslims willing to follow God's clear command in Leviticus 24:16?


Posted by Steve Wells at 9/21/2012 10:05:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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2 comments:
 v1car said...
Uh, a word to the wise: the U.S. government has admitted that the Benghazi attack was not related to the YouTube video at all. It was a coordinated and unrelated terrorist attack, and the original narrative was not just wrong but an outright lie -- there wasn't even a riot, just an attack on the embassy.
So maybe could you tone down the rhetoric a touch?
Fri Sep 21, 12:32:00 PM 2012 
 siena.gayle said...
"Tone down?" hahahaha - it's a blog, dude and it's FUNNY. Simmer down and look up the definition of "sarcasm" and "facetious" and your life will improve.
Mon Sep 24, 08:23:00 AM 2012 
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 19 September 2012The naked Muhammad (Don't look or you'll go blind)
Yesterday, the French magazine, Charlie Hebdo, published some cartoons showing the prophet Muhammad (pb&jbuh). This, of course, is something no one is supposed to do, because it's blasphemy to show any kind of visual representation of Muhammad.
It all has to do with Muhammad's amazing modesty. He was the most modest person to have ever existed. He said so himself.
And he was especially modest when it came to exposing his private parts. No one, not even his favorite wife, Ayesha, ever saw him naked. Good thing, too, because if they did, they'd go blind.
Lady Ayesha … said, "I never saw the private parts of the Messenger of Allah." … The Prophet ... asked Imam Ali to ensure that no one other than himself should wash him (his covered body after his death). He told him, "No one has ever seen me naked, and if it were to happen he would become blind." Ash-Shifa, p.48
So please don't look at the cartoon below. If you do it will be the last thing you'll ever see.

Posted by Steve Wells at 9/19/2012 08:52:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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4 comments:
 ~~~mY~seaCRETS~~ said...
what does the cartoon say ? English translations please
Wed Sep 19, 10:16:00 AM 2012 
 wakawakwaka said...
in the largest pannel Mohammed says "do you like my ass?"
in the pannel where Mohammed is naked it is said "a star is born"
the others are about muslims spazing out about moe being depicted in a movie
Wed Sep 19, 01:58:00 PM 2012 
 Booya Bible said...
My french blows now but I can do a pretty good job -
THE FILM THAT EMBRACED THE MUSLUM WORLD
Muhammad: 'And my ass, do you like my ass?'
Bottom Left I can't read well
Next with star on Mo's ass: A star is born.
Bottom right: STOP SCREWING AROUND WITH MUHAMMAD and he says "I'm Jewish!"
can't read the other two
Wed Sep 19, 10:22:00 PM 2012 
 Sajjad Ahmad said...
Muhammad (PBUH) is most important in our (Muslims) life. So we protract Muhammad's (PBUH) Dignity and Honer,
hajj package 2013
Wed Oct 10, 03:45:00 AM 2012 
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 14 September 2012The Innocence of Muslims: An awful film about an even worse man
Have you seen the YouTube video that is driving the Muslim world mad?
Well I have, and it is awful. It might, in fact, be the worst film I've ever seen. If the producers spent $20 making it, they spent way too much.
But I have no quarrel with its content. The movie gives Muhammad (pb&jbup) all the respect he deserves.
Here's a link to the video if you'd like to watch: Mo Movie Trailer
(Watch now, if you have the stomach for it. It probably won't be up for long.)
And here's the latest on the topic from Jesus and Mo.
‘spect2
Posted by Steve Wells at 9/14/2012 08:41:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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2 comments:
 Stephen said...
Nothing says "my god is a powerless non-entity" better than his followers thinking they have to do his vengeance for him. A *real* god would set those blasphemers straight himself.
What a piece of shit trailer, though, I must say.
Steve Weeks
Fri Sep 14, 04:31:00 PM 2012 
 bittersweetend said...
I know I shouldn't be laughing at this, but it is ust so funny.
Sat Sep 15, 07:37:00 AM 2012 
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 13 September 2012Yahweh's Amazing Test (Abraham, Genesis 22)
Posted by Steve Wells at 9/13/2012 10:41:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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2 comments:
 No said...
This invisible monster Yahweh like Sam Harris says... fun video I enjoyed it.
Thu Sep 13, 07:38:00 PM 2012 
 Stephen said...
Non-Stamp Collector FTW!
He always manages to distill the essential madness of the bible into manageable and extremely watchable form.
I liked the little "touch" on Isaac's outfit... a detail not found in Genesis, but almost inevitable under the circumstances.
Steve Weeks
Thu Sep 13, 08:00:00 PM 2012 
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 07 September 2012Billy Graham: The Bible is the greatest 'self-help' book ever written (with 159 helpful examples)
Really, that's what he said, when answering a question about self-help books.
Q: Can you recommend some self-help books that might help me get my life together? I have a lot of problems I can't seem to overcome. People tell me just to try harder, but that doesn't get me anywhere. -- C.H.
A: Yes, I'd like to recommend to you the greatest "self-help" book ever written: the Bible! Every other self-help book will only give you the author's ideas, but the Bible gives you God's wisdom on how to live. Can you think of anything more important?
Which sounds good unless you've actually read the Bible.
In his letter, Mr. Graham gave no biblical examples, not a single one.
So I thought I'd help him out by providing a list of 159 things that God encourages you to do in "the best 'self-help' book ever written."
(Stolen from my New Year's Resolution post.)
Talk to a talking serpent.
Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman ... And the woman said unto the serpent ... And the serpent said unto the woman.... Genesis 3.1-4
Have sex with a son of God. (Make some giant babies!)
The sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives. Genesis 6:4
Get drunk and lay around naked. Then if your kids see you, curse their children (your unborn grandchildren).
Noah ... drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent ... And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father ... Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him. And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. Genesis 9:25
Have sex with your wife's slave. (If she gets pregnant, abandon her and her child.)
And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai. Genesis 16.2
Offer your virgin daughters to a sex-crazed mob of angel rapers.
I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes. Genesis 19:8
Get drunk and impregnate your virgin daughters.
Lot went up ... and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters. And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth: Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father. Genesis 19:30-37
Be willing to kill your child for God.
Take now thine only son Isaac" ... and offer him there for a burnt offering. ... And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. Genesis 22:2-10
Have sex with someone by mistake.
And Jacob served seven years for Rachel; and they seemed unto him but a few days, for the love he had to her. And Jacob said unto Laban, Give me my wife that I may go in unto her ... And it came to pass in the evening, that he took Leah his daughter, and brought her to him; and he went in unto her ... And it came to pass, that in the morning, behold, it was Leah. Genesis 29:20-25
Buy sex with mandrakes.
And Rachel said, Therefore he shall lie with thee to night for thy son's mandrakes. And Jacob came out of the field in the evening, and Leah went out to meet him, and said, Thou must come in unto me; for surely I have hired thee with my son's mandrakes. And he lay with her that night. Genesis 30:15-16
Have sex with your dead brother's wife. (But be sure not to spill it on the ground.)
And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him. And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife ... And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground ... And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also. Genesis 38:7-10
Have sex with your dead son's wife. (And then threaten to burn her to death.)
And it was told Tamar, saying, Behold thy father in law goeth up to Timnath to shear his sheep. And she put her widow's garments off from her, and covered her with a vail, and wrapped herself, and sat in an open place, which is by the way to Timnath; for she saw that Shelah was grown, and she was not given unto him to wife. When Judah saw her, he thought her to be an harlot; because she had covered her face. And he turned unto her by the way, and said, Go to, I pray thee, let me come in unto thee; (for he knew not that she was his daughter in law.) And she said, What wilt thou give me, that thou mayest come in unto me? ... And he gave it her, and came in unto her, and she conceived by him. ... And it came to pass about three months after, that it was told Judah, saying, Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt. Genesis 38:13-24
Turn your staff into a snake. (And vice versa.)
And the LORD said unto him, What is that in thine hand? And he said, A rod.  Cast it on the ground. And he cast it on the ground, and it became a serpent; and Moses fled from before it. Put forth thine hand, and take it by the tail. And he put forth his hand, and caught it, and it became a rod in his hand. Exodus 4.2-4
Turn a river into blood.
Take thy rod, and stretch out thine hand upon the waters of Egypt, upon their streams, upon their rivers, and upon their ponds, and upon all their pools of water, that they may become blood ... And Moses and Aaron did so ... and all the waters that were in the river were turned to blood. Exodus 7:19-20
Sell your daughter as a slave. (And what to do if she fails to please her new owner.)
And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant ... If she please not her master.... Exodus 21:7-8
Take a second wife.
If he take him another wife.... Exodus 21:10
Kill your unruly children.
He that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death. ... he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death. Exodus 21:17, 19
For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall surely be put to death. Leviticus 20:9
Slowly beat your slave to death.
If a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and ... he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money. Exodus 21:20-21
Sell a thief to pay for his theft.
If he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft. Exodus 22:3
Rape a woman and then marry her. (After paying her father the going rate for virgins.)
If a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife. If her father utterly refuse to give her unto him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins. Exodus 22:16-17
If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife. Deuteronomy 22:28-29
Kill a witch.
Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. Exodus 22:18
Sprinkle blood on people.
And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people. Exodus 24:8
See the sapphire stone under God's feet.
And they saw the God of Israel: and ... under his feet ... a sapphire stone. Exodus 24:10
Kill a Sabbath breaker.
Whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Exodus 31:15
Kill your family, friends, and neighbors.
Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side ... and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour. Exodus 32:27
See God's back parts.
I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen. Exodus 33:23
Kill an animal and sprinkle its blood seven times before the Lord.
Kill the bullock before the Lord and ... sprinkle of the blood seven times before the LORD. Leviticus 4:4-6
Smear blood on your right ear, thumb, and big toe.
Moses put of the blood upon the tip of their right ear, and upon the thumbs of their right hands, and upon the great toes of their right feet: and Moses sprinkled the blood upon the altar round about. Leviticus 8:24
Stay away from naked menstruating women.
Thou shalt not approach unto a woman to uncover her nakedness, as long as she is put apart for her uncleanness. Leviticus 18:19
Don't have sex with animals. It's confusing.
Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion. Leviticus 18:23
Beat a slave-woman for having sex.
Whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged. Leviticus 19:20
Kill an adulterer and adulteress.
The adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. Leviticus 20:10
Kill any man who has sex with his father's wife (along with the father's wife).
The man that lieth with his father's wife ... both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. Leviticus 20:11
Kill any man who has sex with his daughter-in-law (along with the daughter-in-law).
If a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood shall be upon them. Leviticus 20:12
Kill a gay man (or two).
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. Leviticus 20:13
Burn to death a man who has sex with his wife and mother-in-law (along with the wife and mother-in-law).
If a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire. Leviticus 20:14
Burn to death any whore-like daughters of priests.
And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire. Leviticus 21:9
Stone to death a blasphemer.
He that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death. Leviticus 24:16
Buy some heathen neighbors (Canadians?) for slaves.
Of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Leviticus 25:44
Eat the flesh of your sons and daughters.
Ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat. Leviticus 26:29
And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters. Deuteronomy 28:53
Don't touch (or even look at) any holy things.
They shall not touch any holy thing, lest they die. ...
they shall not go in to see when the holy things are covered, lest they die. Numbers 4:15-20
Do this simple test to see if your wife has been unfaithful.
If any man's wife go aside, and commit a trespass against him ... And the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and she be defiled: or if the spirit of jealousy come upon him ... and she be not defiled.... Numbers 5:11-31
Kill any stranger that cometh nigh.
The stranger that cometh nigh shall be put to death. Numbers 18:7
Drink dead people's blood.
Rise up as a great lion ... and drink the blood of the slain. Numbers 23:24
Hang all the heads of the people up before the Lord.
Take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the LORD against the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away Numbers 25:4
Thrust a spear through the bellies of an inter-racial couple while they're having sex. (It will stop God from killing people.)
Phinehas ... thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly. So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel. Numbers 25:6-9
Kill all the males and non-virgin females, but keep the women children alive for yourselves.
Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. Numbers 31:17-18
Kill your entire family if they believe the wrong things.
If thy brother ... or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods ... Thou shalt not consent unto him ... neither shall thine eye pity him ... But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. Deuteronomy 13:6-13
Have a conversation with your donkey.
And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times? And Balaam said unto the ass... Numbers 22:28-30
Circumcise the foreskin of your heart.
Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart. Deuteronomy 10:16
Rend your clothes. (Then fall on your face and put dust on your head.)
And Joshua rent his clothes, and fell to the earth upon his face before the ark of the LORD until the eventide, he and the elders of Israel, and put dust upon their heads. Joshua 7:6
Put your feet on the necks of kings. (Before killing them.)
Joshua called for all the men of Israel, and said unto the captains of the men of war which went with him, Come near, put your feet upon the necks of these kings. And they came near, and put their feet upon the necks of them. And Joshua said unto them, Fear not, nor be dismayed, be strong and of good courage: for thus shall the LORD do to all your enemies against whom ye fight. Joshua 10:24-25
Hang some dead bodies on trees until evening.
And afterward Joshua smote them, and slew them, and hanged them on five trees: and they were hanging upon the trees until the evening. Joshua 10:26
Deliver a message from God. (A knife blade thrust into a fat man's belly.)
And he brought the present unto Eglon king of Moab and Eglon was a very fat man. ... And Ehud said, I have a message from God unto thee ... And Ehud put forth his left hand, and took the dagger from his right thigh, and thrust it into his belly: And the haft also went in after the blade; and the fat closed upon the blade, so that he could not draw the dagger out of his belly; and the dirt came out. Judges 3:17-22
Kill 600 Philistines with an ox goad.
Shamgar ... slew of the Philistines six hundred men with an ox goad. Judges 3:31
Pound a tent stake through a sleeping man's head.
Then Jael Heber's wife took a nail of the tent, and took an hammer in her hand, and went softly unto him, and smote the nail into his temples, and fastened it into the ground: for he was fast asleep and weary. So he died. Judges 4:21
Put God to the test.
Behold, I will put a fleece of wool in the floor; and if the dew be on the fleece only, and it be dry upon all the earth beside, then shall I know that thou wilt save Israel by mine hand, as thou hast said. Judges 6:36-40
Offer your virgin daughter as a burnt sacrifice to God.
The Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he ... vowed a vow unto the Lord, and said, If thou shalt ... deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands, Then ... whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return ... shall surely be the LORD's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering ... The LORD delivered them into his hands ... And he smote them ... even twenty cities ... with a very great slaughter ... His daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances ... Her father ... did with her according to his vow which he had vowed. Judges 11:29-39
Take the shibboleth test.
Then said they unto him, Say now Shibboleth: and he said Sibboleth: for he could not frame to pronounce it right. Then they took him, and slew him at the passages of Jordan: and there fell at that time of the Ephraimites forty and two thousand. Judges 12:6
Kill 30 men for their clothes.
And the Spirit of the LORD came upon him, and he went down to Ashkelon, and slew thirty men ... and gave change of garments unto them which expounded the riddle.Judges 14:19
Get 300 foxes, tie their tails together, and light them on fire.
Samson went and caught three hundred foxes, and took firebrands, and turned tail to tail, and put a firebrand in the midst between two tails. And when he had set the brands on fire, he let them go Judges 15:4-8
Kill 1000 men with the jawbone of an ass.
The spirit of the Lord came mightily upon him ... And he found a new jawbone of an ass and slew a thousand men therewith. Judges 15:14-15
Kill 3000 in a suicide terrorist attack.
Now the house was full of ... about three thousand men and women ... And Samson called unto the LORD, and said, O Lord God .. strengthen me ... that I may be at once avenged of the Philistines for my two eyes ... and the house fell upon the lords, and upon all the people that were therein. So the dead which he slew at his death were more than they which he slew in his life. Judges 16:27-30
Send a concubine body part message.
And when he was come into his house, he took a knife, and laid hold on his concubine, and divided her, together with her bones, into twelve pieces, and sent her into all the coasts of Israel. Judges 19:29
Kill everyone in town except the virgin females. (Then give the virgins to the men that survived your previous genocide.)
What one is there of the tribes of Israel that came not up to Mizpeh to the LORD? And, behold, there came none to the camp from Jabeshgilead ... Destroy every male, and every woman that hath lain by man ... They found among the inhabitants of Jabeshgilead four hundred young virgins ... and they gave them [the Benjamites] wives. Judges 21:8-14
Steal 200 dancing virgins.
Then the elders of the congregation said, How shall we do for wives for them that remain, seeing the women are destroyed out of Benjamin? ... We may not give them wives of our daughters: for the children of Israel have sworn, saying, Cursed be he that giveth a wife to Benjamin ... If the daughters of Shiloh come out to dance in dances, then come ye out of the vineyards, and catch you every man his wife of the daughters of Shiloh ... And the children of Benjamin did so, and took them wives, according to their number, of them that danced, whom they caught. Judges 21:16-23
Ask God to smite your enemies with hemorrhoids in their secret parts.
The hand of the LORD was against the city with a very great destruction: and he smote the men of the city, both small and great, and they had emerods in their secret parts. 1 Samuel 5:9
Offer God five golden hemorrhoids (to get him to stop putting hemorrhoids in your secret parts).
What shall be the trespass offering which we shall return to him? They answered, Five golden emerods, and five golden mice. 1 Samuel 6:4-5
Chop up an ox and send the body parts as messages.
And the spirit of God came upon Saul ... and he took a yoke of oxen, and hewed them in pieces, and sent them throughout all the coast of Israel. 1 Samuel 11:6-7
Buy a wife with 200 foreskins.
And Saul said, Thus shall ye say to David, The king desireth not any dowry, but an hundred foreskins of the Philistines ... And when his servants told David these words, it pleased David well ... Wherefore David arose and went, he and his men, and slew of the Philistines two hundred men; and David brought their foreskins, and they gave them in full tale to the king, that he might be the king's son in law. And Saul gave him Michal his daughter to wife. 1 Samuel 18:25-27
Get naked and prophesy.
And he stripped off his clothes also, and prophesied ... and lay down naked all that day and all that night. Wherefore they say, Is Saul also among the prophets? 1 Samuel 19:24
Sneak in the bathroom and cut off a man's shirt while he's peeing. (Without getting noticed.)
Saul went in to cover his feet ... Then David arose, and cut off the skirt of Saul's robe privily. 1 Samuel 24:3-4
Have a witch bring a dead person back to life.
Divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up ... ... hen said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel ... An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel ... And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? 1 Samuel 28:8-15
Dance naked in front of God and everybody.
And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod ... Michal ... said, How glorious was the king of Israel to day, who uncovered himself to day in the eyes of the handmaids of his servants, as one of the vain fellows shamelessly uncovereth himself! 2 Samuel 6:14-20
Have public sex with your father's concubines.
Go in unto thy father's concubines, which he hath left to keep the house ... So they spread Absalom a tent upon the top of the house; and Absalom went in unto his father's concubines in the sight of all Israel. 2 Samuel 16:21-22
Take a God (or Satan)-inspired census. (And don't complain when God kills a couple hundred thousand people to punish you for it.)
And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.
...
Thus saith the LORD, I offer thee three things; choose thee one of them, that I may do it unto thee. Shall seven years of famine come unto thee in thy land? or wilt thou flee three months before thine enemies, while they pursue thee? or that there be three days' pestilence in thy land? ... So the LORD sent a pestilence upon Israel from the morning even to the time appointed: and there died of the people from Dan even to Beersheba seventy thousand men. 2 Samuel 24:1-15
Find a hot young virgin to get you some heat.
Now king David was old and stricken in years; and they covered him with clothes, but he gat no heat. Wherefore his servants said unto him, Let there be sought for my lord the king a young virgin: and let her stand before the king, and let her cherish him, and let her lie in thy bosom, that my lord the king may get heat. So they sought for a fair damsel throughout all the coasts of Israel, and found Abishag a Shunammite, and brought her to the king. And the damsel was very fair, and cherished the king, and ministered to him. 1 Kings 1:1-4
Ask your son to murder some of your enemies for you.
Now the days of David drew nigh that he should die; and he charged Solomon his son, saying ... Thou knowest ... what Joab ... did to me ... let not his hoar head go down to the grave in peace ... Shimei ... cursed me with a grievous curse ... Now therefore hold him not guiltless: for thou art a wise man, and knowest what thou oughtest to do unto him; but his hoar head bring thou down to the grave with blood. 1 Kings 2:1-9
Invite a prophet to dinner. Tell him God wants him to come. Then after he eats dinner with you, God will send a lion to kill him.
Now there dwelt an old prophet in Bethel ... And went after the man of God, and found him ... Then he said unto him, Come home with me, and eat bread ... So he went back with him, and did eat bread in his house, and drank water ... And it came to pass, after he had eaten bread, and after he had drunk, that ... a lion met him by the way, and slew him. 1 Kings 13:11-24
Cut off anyone that pisses against a wall.
Behold, I will ... cut off ... him that pisseth against the wall. 1 Kings 14:10
Have an old-fashioned prayer contest. (And kill all the losers.)
Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him ... Then said Elijah unto the people, I, even I only, remain a prophet of the LORD; but Baal's prophets are four hundred and fifty men ... Give us two bullocks; and let them choose one bullock for themselves, and cut it in pieces, and lay it on wood, and put no fire under: and I will dress the other bullock, and lay it on wood, and put no fire under. And call ye on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of the LORD: and the God that answereth by fire, let him be God ... And they took the bullock which was given them, and they dressed it, and called on the name of Baal from morning even until noon, saying, O Baal, hear us. But there was no voice, nor any that answered. And they leaped upon the altar which was made. And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked. And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their manner with knives and lancets, till the blood gushed out upon them ... And Elijah ... built an altar ... And he said ... Hear me, O LORD, hear me, that this people may know that thou art the LORD ... Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench. And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces: and they said, The LORD, he is the God; the LORD, he is the God. And Elijah said unto them, Take the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape. And they took them: and Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon, and slew them there. 1 Kings 18:19-40
Gird up your loins.
And the hand of the LORD was on Elijah; and he girded up his loins. 1 Kings 18:46
Ask your neighbor to smite you. If he refuses, God will send a lion to eat him.
A certain man of the sons of the prophets said unto his neighbour in the word of the LORD, Smite me, I pray thee. And the man refused to smite him. Then said he unto him, Because thou hast not obeyed the voice of the LORD, behold, as soon as thou art departed from me, a lion shall slay thee. And as soon as he was departed from him, a lion found him, and slew him. 1 Kings 20:35-36
Prove you're a man of God by burning people to death.
Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, If I be a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty. 2 Kings 1:10
Curse any little children that make fun of you for whatever reason. (God will send bears to rip them to pieces.)
As he [Elisha] was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them. 2 Kings 2:23-24
Give someone leprosy (along with all of his or her descendants forever).
And he [Elisha] said unto him ... Leprosy ... shall cleave unto thee, and unto thy seed for ever. And he went out from his presence a leper as white as snow. 2 Kings 5:26-27
Make someone blind.
Elisha prayed unto the LORD, and said, Smite this people, I pray thee, with blindness. And he smote them with blindness according to the word of Elisha.2 Kings 6:18
And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand. Acts 13:11
Ask for 70 sons to be killed, with their heads delivered in two baskets.
He [Jehu] wrote a letter the second time to them, saying ... take ye the heads of the men your master's sons, and come to me to Jezreel by to morrow this time ... They took the king's sons, and slew seventy persons, and put their heads in baskets ... They have brought the heads of the king's sons. And he said, Lay ye them in two heaps at the entering in of the gate until the morning. 2 Kings 10:6-10
Show your zeal for the Lord by murdering the family of a former king.
Come with me, and see my zeal for the LORD ... And when he came to Samaria, he slew all that remained unto Ahab in Samaria, till he had destroyed him, according to the saying of the LORD, which he spake to Elijah. 2 Kings 10:16-17
Ask God to send lions to eat people that don't fear him enough.
They feared not the LORD: thereforethe LORD sent lions among them, which slew some of them. 2 Kings 17:25-26
Wax mighty by marrying 14 wives.
Abijah waxed mighty, and married fourteen wives. 2 Chronicles 13.21
Kill anyone who refuses to seek the Lord, whether man or woman, young or old.
Whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman ... and the LORD gave them rest round about. 2 Chronicles 15:13-15
Ask God to make someone's bowels fall out.
The LORD smote him in his bowels with an incurable disease. And ... after the end of two years, his bowels fell. 2 Chronicles 21:18-19
Throw 10,000 people off a cliff.
Amaziah ... did that which was right in the sight of the LORD. ... Ten thousand ... [he] brought ... unto the top of the rock, and cast them down from the top of the rock, that they all were broken in pieces. 2 Chronicles 24:1-12
If you hear about any mingling of holy seed, pluck off your hair and beard, and sit down astonished. Or curse them and pluck off their hair. Your choice.
For they have taken of their daughters for themselves, and for their sons: so that the holy seed have mingled themselves with the people of those lands ... And when I heard this thing, I rent my garment and my mantle, and plucked off the hair of my head and of my beard, and sat down astonished. Ezra 9:2-3
And I contended with them, and cursed them, and smote certain of them, and plucked off their hair, and made them swear by God, saying, Ye shall not give your daughters unto their sons, nor take their daughters unto your sons, or for yourselves. Nehemiah 13:225
Abandon any strange wives or children that you may have.
We have trespassed against our God, and have taken strange wives of the people of the land: Now therefore let us make a covenant with our God to put away all the wives, and such as are born of them ... Ezra the priest stood up, and said unto them, Ye have transgressed, and have taken strange wives ... Now therefore ... separate yourselves ... from the strange wives ... Then all the congregation answered and said with a loud voice, As thou hast said, so must we do. Ezra 10:2-3, 10-12
Wash your feet in the blood of the wicked.
The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked. Psalm 58:10
Hate God-haters with a perfect hatred.
Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? ... I hate them with perfect hatred. Psalm 139:21-22
Pray that God will burn people to death.
Let burning coals fall upon them: let them be cast into the fire; into deep pits, that they rise not up again. Psalm 140:102
Beat the hell out of your children.
He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes. Proverbs 13:24
Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying. Proverbs 19:18
Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him. Proverbs 22:15
Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell. Proverbs 23:13-14
Cast your bread upon the waters.
Cast thy bread upon the waters: for thou shalt find it after many days. Ecclesiastes 11:1
Make your bowels sound like a harp.
My bowels shall sound like an harp. Isaiah 16:11
Walk around naked and barefoot all year as a sign and a wonder.
At the same time spake the LORD by Isaiah ... saying, Go and loose the sackcloth from off thy loins, and put off thy shoe from thy foot. And he did so, walking naked and barefoot. And the LORD said, Like as my servant Isaiah hath walked naked and barefoot three years for a sign and wonder.Isaiah 20:2-3
Suck the breasts of kings.
Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings. Isaiah 60:16
See God's loins (the glory of the Lord) and fall on your face.
And I saw ... the appearance of his loins.... This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face. Ezekiel 1:27-28
Fill your bowels with a roll.
And he said unto me, Son of man, cause thy belly to eat, and fill thy bowels with this roll that I give thee. Then did I eat it; and it was in my mouth as honey for sweetness.Ezekiel 3:3
Lie on your left side for 390 days and then on your right for 40 days.
Lie thou also upon thy left side ... for ... three hundred and ninety days ... And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side ... forty days. Ezekiel 4:4-6
Bake some Ezekiel 4:12 bread.
(It has a secret ingredient left out of Ezekiel 4:9 bread!)
Take thou also unto thee wheat, and barley, and beans, and lentiles, and millet, and fitches, and put them in one vessel, and make thee bread thereof ... And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man. Ezekiel 4:9-12
Shave your head and beard, divide the cut hair into thirds, burn one portion, smite the second about with a knife, and scatter the third in the wind.
And thou, son of man, take thee a sharp knife, take thee a barber's razor, and cause it to pass upon thine head and upon thy beard: then take thee balances to weigh, and divide the hair. Thou shalt burn with fire a third part in the midst of the city, when the days of the siege are fulfilled: and thou shalt take a third part, and smite about it with a knife: and a third part thou shalt scatter in the wind; and I will draw out a sword after them. Ezekiel 5:1-2
Don't go near any menstruating women.
If a man be just, and ... neither hath come near to a menstruous woman. Ezekiel 18.5-6
Pluck off your own breasts.
Thou shalt ... pluck off thine own breasts: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD. Ezekiel 23:34
Don't bring any strangers or people with uncircumcised hearts or flesh to God's sanctuary when your offering him fat and blood.
Ye have brought into my sanctuary strangers, uncircumcised in heart, and uncircumcised in flesh ... to pollute it ... when ye offer ... the fat and the blood. Ezekiel 44:7-9
Offer unto me the fat and the blood, saith the Lord. Ezekiel 44:15
Put a linen bonnet on your head and linen breeches on your loins, but don't wear wool or anything that causes you to sweat. (God hates wool and sweat.)
No wool shall come upon them. They shall have linen bonnets upon their heads, and shall have linen breeches upon their loins; they shall not gird themselves with any thing that causeth sweat. Ezekiel 44:17-18
Take a wife of whoredoms and have children of whoredoms.
The LORD said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms. Hosea 1:2
Love an adulteress.
The LORD unto me, Go yet, love a woman beloved of her friend, yet an adulteress. Hosea 3:1
Buy a wife with 15 pieces of silver and one and a half homers or barley.
So I bought her to me for fifteen pieces of silver, and for an homer of barley, and an half homer of barley. Hosea 3:2
Wail and howl, go stripped and naked; wail like a dragon, mourn like an owl.
I will wail and howl, I will go stripped and naked: I will make a wailing like the dragons, and mourning as the owls.
Micah 1:8
Take off all your clothes and roll in the dust.
Roll thyself in the dust ... having thy shame naked.
Micah 1:10-11
Beware of lying prophets that bite (with their teeth).
Thus saith the LORD concerning the prophets that make my people err, that bite with their teeth....
Micah 3:5
Don't trust a friend, have confidence in a guide, or talk to your wife.
Trust ye not in a friend, put ye not confidence in a guide: keep the doors of thy mouth from her that lieth in thy bosom. Micah 7:5
Get drunk and uncover your foreskin.
Drink thou also and let thy foreskin be uncovered. Habakkuk 2:16
Hide from God and hope he doesn't find you.
Before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD's anger come upon you ... it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD's anger. Zephaniah 2:2-3
Don't let the holy flesh in your skirt touch any bread or wine.
If one bear holy flesh in the skirt of his garment, and with his skirt do touch bread, or pottage, or wine, or oil, or any meat, shall it be holy? Haggai 2:9
Spread dung on people's faces.
Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces. Malachi 2:3
Pluck out an eye, cut off a hand, foot, or other body part.
Whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out ... And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. Matthew 5:28-30
If thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire. Matthew 18:8-9
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off ... And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off ... And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. Mark 9:43-48
Tell devils and unclean spirits what to do.
He gave them power against unclean spirits. Matthew 10:1
Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils. Luke 9:1
Cast out devils, speak in tongues, handle snakes, drink poison, do some faith-healing.
Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying ... cast out devils. Matthew 10:5-8
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. Mark 16:17-18
Join the Tea Party. (Steal from the poor to give to the rich.)
Whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Matthew 13:12, Mark 4:25
Unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. Matthew 25:29
Cast a mountain or sycamore tree into the sea.
Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. Matthew 17:20
That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them. Mark 11:23-24
If ye have faith, and doubt not ... if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done. And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive. Matthew 21:21-22
If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you. Luke 17:6
Become a eunuch for heaven's sake.
There are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it. Matthew 19:12
Abandon your wife and family for Jesus.
Every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. Matthew 19:29
Curse a fig tree.
When he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away. Matthew 21:19
And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet. And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. Mark 11:13-14
Stick your fingers in people's ears, spit in their eyes, and touch their tongues.
And he ... put his fingers into his ears, and he spit, and touched his tongue. Mark 7:33
He took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought. Mark 8:23
He spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay. John 9:6
Do some impossible things.
All things are possible to him that believeth. Mark 9:23
Walk on snakes and scorpions.
Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Luke 10:19
Hate your family.
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children,and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:26
Make water flow out of your belly.
He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. John 7:38
Hate your life.
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. John 12:25
Eat Jesus' flesh and drink his blood.
Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life ... For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him ... He that eateth me, even he shall live by me. John 6:53-57
Kill anyone that doesn't obey Jesus.
For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. Acts 3:22-23
Give all your possessions to the church. (Or God will kill you.)
Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet. But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost ... And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in. And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much. Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out. Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost. Acts 5:1-10
Kill some animals and eat them.
He [Peter] fell into a trance, And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending upon him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. Acts 10:10-13
In a trance I [Peter] saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me: Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat. Acts 11:5-7
Believe in magic handkerchiefs.
So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them. Acts 19:12
Burn some books.
Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver. Acts 19:19
Obey Obama. (Or go to hell.)
There is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. Romans 13:1-2
Eat everything, especially meat.
(Don't be a wimpy latter-day vegetarian.)
For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. Romans 14:2
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils ... commanding to abstain from meats. 1 Timothy 4:1-3
Be persuaded in your own mind.
Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. Romans 14:5
Shun those that believe differently than you.
Mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. Romans 16:17-18
Try to know nothing (except for Jesus).
I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. 1 Corinthians 2:2
If you're single, don't get married.
Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife. 1 Corinthians 7:7
If you're married, don't have sex.
(Jesus is coming; there's no time for it.)
The time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none. 1 Corinthians 7:7
Shave the head of any women that you catch praying with an uncovered head.
Every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn. 1 Corinthians 11:5-6
If you're ignorant, stay ignorant.
If any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant. 1 Corinthians 14:38
Smell good to God.
We are unto God a sweet savour. 2 Corinthians 2:15
Don't look where you're going.
Walk by faith, not by sight. 2 Corinthians 5:7
Greet everyone with a holy kiss.
Greet one another with an holy kiss. 2 Corinthians 13:12
Don't exercise.
Bodily exercise profiteth little. 1 Timothy 4:8
Stop drinking water. Drink wine instead.
Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake. 1 Timothy 5:23
Refresh your bowels in the Lord.
Refresh my bowels in the Lord. Philemon 1:20
Buy gold, white clothes, and eye salve.
"Buy ... gold ... white raiment ... and eyesalve." Revelation 3:18
Now that is advice you won't find in any other "self help" book!
Posted by Steve Wells at 9/07/2012 06:08:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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9 comments:
 Stephen said...
Pure Comedy Gold!!
I was in tears by #30.
The Bible FTW. :-)
Steve Weeks
Sat Sep 08, 07:19:00 AM 2012 
 GMpilot said...
38. Buy some heathen neighbors (Canadians?) for slaves.
Aww, c'mon! You know that Mexicans and other Latinos are more popular...and more identifiable. can't have our slaves looking like us, can we? [/snark]
Tue Sep 11, 08:06:00 PM 2012 
 ea3e8c72-fd47-11e1-808a-000bcdcb8a73 said...
I don't think Rev. Billy would agree talking to talking snakes is recommended ... but it's probably at least okay, as long as you don't follow the serpent's culinary ideas ...
Wed Sep 12, 07:09:00 PM 2012 
 Prunesquallor said...
Describing something is NOT the same thing as prescribing something. The bible doesn't actually *encourage* you to talk to snakes or sleep around with sons of god. The story of Lot and his daughters is creepy, victim blaming and is basically racist propaganda against the moabites and ammonites (Lot's daughters give birth to Moab and Ben-Ammi). But listing "get drunk and impregnate your virgin daughters" under "things that God encourages you to do" is disingenuous. That kind of sloppy reading of the Bible made me prematurely dismiss many atheist thinkers back when I was still a christian. The Bible is full of cruelties and absurdities anyway, so theres no need to misrepresent the texts. Leave that to the fan-wanker fundies who are trying in vain to make the Bible seem ethical, believable and internally consistent.
Thu Sep 13, 07:26:00 AM 2012 
 Steve Wells said...
Prunesquallor,
OK, so maybe the Bible doesn't encourage you to talk to talking snakes, but God did (supposedly) put a talking snake in the garden, right? Why'd he do that, if he didn't want Eve to talk to it?
As far as Lot and his daughters go, the Bible is quite clear about that. Lot was, according to 2 Peter 2:8, "a just and righteous man." The only other thing the Bible says about him is that he offered his virgin daughters to a mob of angel rapers and then got drunk and impregnated them. It's disingenuous to call someone disingenuous for correctly stating what the Bible actually says.
Thu Sep 13, 08:09:00 AM 2012 
 Steve Wells said...
ea3etc,
You're probably right about the Reverend Billy. But then, I doubt if he'd agree with any of the items on my list -- even though his favorite self-help book (arguably, in some cases, I admit) recommends them.
Thu Sep 13, 08:32:00 AM 2012 
 WebAdvertizers Khim said...
hands up for the book lovers out there! you can get books or you can read books free here in this link
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Thu Sep 26, 12:45:00 PM 2013 
 Unknown said...
"Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces. Malachi 2:3"
Minor typo - the link is actually to Habakkuk
Tue Apr 15, 08:44:00 PM 2014 
 Steve Wells said...
Thanks, Unknown. I think I've corrected it now.
Tue Apr 15, 09:04:00 PM 2014 
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 03 September 2012Jacob 1-2: Polygamy, riches, and the Lord's delight in chaste women
Nephi was getting old and was about to die, so he had to find someone to take over his plate-writing duties.
He chose his little brother Jacob.
For behold, it came to pass that fifty and five years had passed away from the time that Lehi left Jerusalem; wherefore, Nephi gave me, Jacob, a commandment concerning the small plates ... that I should write upon these plates a few of the things which I consider to be most precious ... for Christ's sake. Jacob 1:1-4
You remember Jacob, don't you?


He's the guy that "spoke about exceedingly many things" back in 2 Nephi 6-10, including wicked Jews, blessed Gentiles, and a completely Mormon America.


Now he's going to tell us about the somewhat wicked and abominable practices of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and Mitt Romney's great grandfather.
It came to pass that the people of Nephi ... began to ... indulge themselves somewhat in wicked practices, such as like unto David of old desiring many wives and concubines. Jacob 1:15
David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord. 2:24
There shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none.  2:27
Then a little  financial advice.
After ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches. Jacob 1:19a
That's right. Hope in Christ and you'll get rich. (That's how Romney did it at Bain Capital.)

But after you're rich you must use your wealth to help the poor, the sick, the hungry, and the afflicted. (Romney forgot about this part of the deal.)
Seek them for the intent to do good -- to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted. Jacob 1:19b
Finally we learn that the Lord delights in chaste women.
I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. Jacob 2:28
I suppose it's good to know that.
Posted by Steve Wells at 9/03/2012 09:38:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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2 comments:
 Stephen said...
Joseph Smith ran for President in 1844. According to Wikipedia, these were some of his views. I'm not sure today's republican party would recognize him:
"Smith considered the United States Constitution, and especially the Bill of Rights, to be inspired by God and 'the Saints' best and perhaps only defense.' He believed a strong central government crucial to the nation's well-being but thought democracy better than tyranny—although he also taught that a theocratic monarchy was the ideal form of government."
Steve Weeks
Mon Sep 03, 07:58:00 PM 2012 
 Bonsai said...
Jacob 2:30 is key to understanding the discrepancy between a one-wife-only commandment and the practice of polygamy in the early LDS church.
Jacob 2:30 "For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things."
God is saying obey the one-wife-only commandment unless he says otherwise.
God did command the early LDS believers to practice polygamy. That only works if you accept Joseph Smith as a prophet but is true to the passage in Jacob.
It seems Jacob is relaying God's displeasure for the peoples' unrighteous desires for multiple wives and consequent "whoredoms" and use of the scriptures to justify themselves without God's command, not castigating them for polygamy, per se.
--FYC, I am not a current believer
Respectfully,
In the interest of truth...
Sun Apr 28, 08:41:00 AM 2013 
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 30 October 2012Biblical Halloween Costumes: It's time to take it back from the pagans!
Here are some costume ideas from the Bible. (Re-post for Halloween.)
God's Clever Talking Serpent
Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said ....Genesis 3:1-5


Lot and his daughters
Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him ... Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father. Genesis 19:30-38
This is pretty simple. And old guy, two young women, and a jug of wine (Clothing optional).


An abominable, four-legged, flying creeping thing.
But all other flying creeping things, which have four feet, shall be an abomination unto you. Leviticus 11:23


Fiery Serpent
And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died. Numbers 21:6


Talking Donkey
And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam .... Numbers 22:28-30


An Evil Spirit from the Lord. (Judges 9:23; 1 Samuel 16:14-16, 16:23, 18:10, 19:9)
The evil spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied. 18:10
All evil spirits come from God, but I don't know what they look like. Maybe something like this.


Jael
And Jael went out to meet Sisera, and said unto him, Turn in, my lord, turn in to me; fear not. ... And she opened a bottle of milk, and gave him drink, and covered him. ... Then Jael Heber's wife took a nail of the tent, and took an hammer in her hand, and went softly unto him, and smote the nail into his temples, and fastened it into the ground. Judges 4:18-21
Costume: Woman with hammer, tent stake, blanket, and cup of milk.


Samson with the jawbone of an ass
(Just try to keep the spirit of the Lord from coming upon you!)
The spirit of the Lord came mightily upon Samson and he found a new jawbone of an ass ... and took it, and slew 1000 men therewith. Judges 15:14-15


Jesus
Forget all the stuff you've seen on TV. Jesus doesn't look like that anymore. To see what he looks like now you need to go to the Book of Revelation.
...the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; And his feet like unto fine brass, ... And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword. Revelation 1:13-16
Costume: Long white robe, golden girdle, white face and hair, red eyes, brass feet, seven stars in hand, sword sticking out of mouth.

And here's what he will look like when he gets into his planned mass killings at the end of the world.
Behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. ... And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations. Revelation 19:11-15
Costume: a bunch of crowns on your head, sword sticking out of your mouth, clothing dipped in blood

There is one other possible Jesus costume, but it may be illegal in some places. You see Jesus had a special tattoo on his thigh (which is a biblical euphemism for testicles): "King of Kings" one on side and "Lord of Lord" on the other.
And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. Revelation 19:15
Costume: Tattooed thigh or scrotum


Anything from the Book of Revelation
(Just pick a verse pretty much anywhere, but the Whore of Babylon is always fun!)

Posted by Steve Wells at 10/30/2012 01:00:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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11 comments:
 twillight said...
I suggest Jacob's Esau-costume. Some goat-skin on your arms, and voilá!
Sat Oct 31, 02:24:00 PM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
Yeah, that's a good one, twillight.
That Rebekah/Jacob deception was pretty nasty. And it would make a nice costume, too.
Sat Oct 31, 04:11:00 PM 2009 
 matt311 said...
How about Job, halfway through his eponymous Book? Covered in sores, boils, weeping, the like...
Make for a lot of Halloween fun, it would.
Sat Oct 31, 04:20:00 PM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
Oh yeah, Job, would be a good one, Matt. Then we could throw Satan in too.
Sat Oct 31, 04:26:00 PM 2009 
 Allen Hunter said...
Instead of the typical douche in the red horned suit, someone should dress up as BAPHOMET!!!
Sat Oct 31, 08:44:00 PM 2009 
 twillight said...
Hm, how does Satan look like?
Male, winged... As costume I'd most probably wear a lawer's suit... But is there a detailful description about him in the Bible somewhere what I'm not aware of?
Sun Nov 01, 01:10:00 AM 2009 
 Brucker said...
I couldn't find any really creative costume ideas (I should have read this!), and considered going the Wednesday Addams route: "I'm a homicidal maniac- they look just like everyone else." My wife asked me to kindly refrain from expressing such ideas.
Sun Nov 01, 01:54:00 PM 2009 
 Randomdude123 said...
Halloween it's stuff is pagan! LOLZ!
Fri Oct 29, 02:35:00 PM 2010 
 Fatman said...
The Bible does not contain a single physical description of Satan AFAIK, he is usually described as a voice inside people's heads that tries to get them to do bad things.
The whole red dude with cloven feet and horns/beard thing was probably invented by clerical maniacs in the Dark Ages who wanted to scare their sheep into obedience. During this period graphic depictions of the horrors of Hell (which is also never described in the Bible, apart from vague references to fire) were a common sight in churches. Imagine the effect they wrought on those primitive Christian minds.
Fri Nov 12, 05:37:00 AM 2010 
 nazani said...
Sampson's outfit is interesting - looks like an Assyrian version of a kilt and sporran...hey, maybe the Scots really are "Ladies from Hell."
Mon Dec 13, 10:30:00 AM 2010 
 Enough about me....what about you? said...
How did that rascal of a snake speak Aramaic with no vocal cords?
Tue Oct 30, 03:41:00 PM 2012 
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 30 October 2012Barrett Foa Does His Best Romney — Set To I Believe From Book Of Mormon!

And here, in case you haven't seen it, is the original from the Book of Mormon Musical.

Posted by Steve Wells at 10/30/2012 10:23:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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1 comment:
 Stephen said...
Wet my pants, ruined my couch... forwarded to many friends and students. Thanks!
Steve Weeks
Wed Oct 31, 05:20:00 PM 2012 
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 29 October 2012God helps Judas Machabeus destroy the wicked
After Matthathias died, his son, Judas Machabeus, replaced him as the leader of the Jewish terrorists  His first act was to burn "them that troubled his people" (with fire).
His [Mathathias'] son Judas, called Machabeus, rose up in his stead. 1 Machabees 3:1
And all his brethren helped him, and all they that had joined themselves to his father, and they fought with cheerfulness the battle of Israel. 2
He was like a lion, and like a lion's whelp roaring for his prey. 4
He pursued the wicked ... and them that troubled his people he burnt with fire. 5
Judah went through the cities of Judah, destroying the wicked, and making himself famous all over the world.
He went through the cities of Juda, and destroyed the wicked out of them ... And he was renowned even to the utmost part of the earth. 1 Machabees 3:8-9
He killed Apollonius and many of his soldiers, and he took the sword of Apollonius and fought with it for rest of his life.
Apollonius gathered together the Gentiles, and a numerous and great army from Samaria, to make war against Israel. 1 Machabees 3:10
Judas ... went forth to meet him: and he overthrew him, and killed him: and many fell down slain. 11
And he took their spoils, and Judas took the sword of Apollonius, and fought with it all his lifetime. 12
Seron, the captain of the Syrian army, heard about Judas (as had everyone on earth). He collected a large army of wicked men to fight Judas. When Judas' smaller army saw the Syrians, they were frightened. But Judas told them not to worry. Because success in war depends not on numbers, but on God. "The Lord himself will overthrow them."
Seron captain of the army of Syria heard that Judas had assembled a company of the faithful. 1 Machabees 3:13
He made himself ready: and the host of the wicked went up with him. 15
And Judas went forth to meet him, with a small company. 16
When they saw the army coming to meet them, they said to Judas: How shall we, being few, be able to fight against so great a multitude and so strong? 17
Judas said: It is an easy matter for many to be shut up in the hands of a few: and there is no difference in the sight of the God of heaven to deliver with a great multitude, or with a small company. 18
For the success of war is not in the multitude of the army, but strength cometh from heaven. 19
The Lord himself will overthrow them. 22
Immediately after his speech to his soldiers, Judas attacked Seron's army, killing 800 men.
As soon as he had made an end of speaking, he rushed suddenly upon them: and Seron and his host were overthrown before him ... and there fell of them eight hundred men. 1 Machabees 3:23-24
Which made Judas even more famous and feared.
The fear of Judas and of his brethren, and the dread of them fell upon all the nations round about them. 1 Machabees 3:25
His fame came to the king, and all nations told of the battles of Judas. 26
And Judas was just getting started.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OK, so how many have God and Judas killed so far? Here are some estimates.

100 wicked troublemakers burned to death (1 Machabees 3:5)
3000 wicked destroyed from cities of Judah (3:8-9)
Apollonius and 1000 of his men (3:10-12)
Seron and 800 of the host of the wicked (3:13-24)
Total: 4900

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The same story (more or less) is told in 2 Machabees 8:5-6.
Posted by Steve Wells at 10/29/2012 02:51:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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1 comment:
 TWF said...
Oh, now I understand why this book isn't universally considered canonical. People may get confused and think that Judas Machabeus was the Messiah.
It is interesting to see the language in this late addition to Scripture, because the author made it sound a lot like the rest of the OT. He certainly did a better job than Joseph Smith.
Mon Oct 29, 07:15:00 PM 2012 
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 28 October 2012Jarom writes a few words about the Lamanites (who love murder and drink the blood of beasts)
The fifteen-verse Book of Jarom was, as you might expect, written by Jarom, who was the son of Enos, who was the son of Jacob, who was the son of Lehi, who was a descendant of Joseph, who was the son of Jacob (aka "Israel" in the Bible). The purpose of Jarom's little book is to tell you about that.
Now behold, I, Jarom, write a few words according to the commandment of my father, Enos, that our genealogy may be kept. Jarom 1
Or at least that's what the first verse says.
But by the second verse, Jarom does a complete Romney, changing his mind. He's engraved his words on plates for the benefit of the Lamanites.
And as these plates are small, and as these things are written for the intent of the benefit of our brethren the Lamanites... 2a
Which was really nice of him.
He's not going to tell us about his prophesying or his revelations, though. Which was also nice of him. (If you've read any of the previous books of the Book of Mormon, you've heard it all many times over. Jesus will be born centuries in the future and everyone must believe in him--even before he exists--or go to hell.)
...wherefore, it must needs be that I write a little; but I shall not write the things of my prophesying, nor of my revelations. For what could I write more than my fathers have written? For have not they revealed the plan of salvation? I say unto you, Yea; and this sufficeth me. 2b
Jarom says that much needs to be done among his people, because of the hardness of their hearts, the deafness of their ears, the blindness of their minds, the stiffness of their necks, and the fullness of their bladders. But so far, at least, God has been exceedingly merciful to them by not killing them all.
Behold, it is expedient that much should be done among this people, because of the hardness of their hearts, and the deafness of their ears, and the blindness of their minds, and the stiffness of their necks; nevertheless, God is exceedingly merciful unto them, and has not as yet swept them off from the face of the land. 3
And yet not all Nephites were hard, deaf, blind, stiff, and full. There were many that received revelations and had communion with the Holy Spirit -- five or so centuries before the Holy Spirit was supposedly given to Christians at Pentecost.
And there are many among us who have many revelations, for they are not all stiffnecked. And as many as are not stiffnecked and have faith, have communion with the Holy Spirit, which maketh manifest unto the children of men, according to their faith. 4
I'm not sure what Jarom meant in verse 3, though. Because now, in verse 5, he says the Nephites are perfect, observing the sabbath, avoiding blasphemy, and obeying exceedingly strict laws.
And now, behold, two hundred years had passed away, and the people of Nephi had waxed strong in the land. They observed to keep the law of Moses and the sabbath day holy unto the Lord. And they profaned not; neither did they blaspheme. And the laws of the land were exceedingly strict. 5
Next Jarom tells us about the Lamanites (indigenous Americans) -- they loved murder and drank the blood of beasts.
And they were scattered upon much of the face of the land, and the Lamanites also. And they were exceedingly more numerous than were they of the Nephites; and they loved murder and would drink the blood of beasts. 6

"The Lamanites ... loved murder and would drink the blood of beasts." Jarom 6
But the Nephites were ready for them. Their kings and leaders were mighty men with faith in Jesus. And they fortified their cities (cities that left no evidence of their existence).
And it came to pass that they came many times against us, the Nephites, to battle. But our kings and our leaders were mighty men in the faith of the Lord; and they taught the people the ways of the Lord; wherefore, we withstood the Lamanites and swept them away out of our lands, and began to fortify our cities, or whatsoever place of our inheritance. 7
And the Nephites, like the good proto-Mormons that they were, multiplied exceedingly.
And we multiplied exceedingly, and spread upon the face of the land. 8a
And became exceedingly rich, building up their military Romney style.
and became exceedingly rich in gold, and in silver, and in precious things, and in fine workmanship of wood, in buildings, and in machinery, and also in iron and copper, and brass and steel, making all manner of tools of every kind to till the ground, and weapons of war -- yea, the sharp pointed arrow, and the quiver, and the dart, and the javelin, and all preparations for war. 8b
But the Nephites were bad once again and needed to be threatened by the prophets. Pre-believe in Jesus or be destroyed.
And it came to pass that the prophets of the Lord did threaten the people of Nephi, according to the word of God, that if they did not keep the commandments, but should fall into transgression, they should be destroyed from off the face of the land. 10
Wherefore, the prophets, and the priests, and the teachers, did labor diligently, exhorting with all long-suffering the people to diligence; teaching the law of Moses, and the intent for which it was given; persuading them to look forward unto the Messiah, and believe in him to come as though he already was. And after this manner did they teach them. 11
And it came to pass that the Nephites made the right choice. They pricked their hearts with the word that had yet to be written, continually stirring up a bit of repentance.
And it came to pass that by so doing they kept them from being destroyed upon the face of the land; for they did prick their hearts with the word, continually stirring them up unto repentance. 12
And it came to pass again after 238 years of all manner of wars and such like for the space of much time.
And it came to pass that two hundred and thirty and eight years had passed away -- after the manner of wars, and contentions, and dissensions, for the space of much of the time. 13
With that said, Jarom wrote no more, for the plates were small. (But be sure to check out the plates of Nephi at your local library. where you can read the writings of kings, or those which they caused be written or whatnot.)
And I, Jarom, do not write more, for the plates are small. But behold, my brethren, ye can go to the other plates of Nephi; for behold, upon them the records of our wars are engraven, according to the writings of the kings, or those which they caused to be written. 14
So Jarom delivered his plates to his son Omni, who will be writing the next exciting book in the Book of Mormon: The Book of Omni.
And I deliver these plates into the hands of my son Omni, that they may be kept according to the commandments of my fathers. 15
See you then.
Posted by Steve Wells at 10/28/2012 06:52:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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3 comments:
 TWF said...
What a shame. If only we had bigger plates, maybe then the story wouldn't seem so strange.
Sun Oct 28, 11:41:00 AM 2012 
 Stephen said...
And it came to pass that I, Nehpets, wondered exceedingly about Joseph Smith's use of the word "expedient", for it meseement to be a word of surpassing modernity. And, Lo: it came to pass that I, Nehpets, did look up this word in the Gospel of Merriam-Webster and found that the first known use was in the 14th century. The Book is a marvelous work and a wonder to be using language that won't be invented for hundreds of years and will have to be translated from the Reformed Egyptian.
From the Gospel of Merriam-Webster:
Origin of EXPEDIENT
Middle English, from Anglo-French or Latin; Anglo-French, from Latin expedient-, expendiens, present participle of expedire to extricate, prepare, be useful, from ex- + ped-, pes foot — more at foot
First Known Use: 14th century
Steve Weeks
Sun Oct 28, 01:15:00 PM 2012 
 Bukko Canukko said...
Well of COURSE Joe Smif would use onnathem modern 14-Century words. He was magically translating them from the original Rewormed Egypt'em, and he had to put it in words that suckers -- whoops, I mean "saints" -- from these latter days could understand. That Reformed Egyptian language had SO many words for concepts that modern people cannot comprehend. Why, I've read scholarly texts based on the many preserved writings from that language that say the RefEg'ees had more than 100 words for "con man" alone
Sun Oct 28, 02:17:00 PM 2012 
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 27 October 2012Mathathias and his friends slay the wicked sinners, circumcise the the uncircumcised, and yield not the horn to the sinner
The first killing from First Machabees was a terrorist attack, in which Mathathias murdered a Jew who was offering a sacrifice to an idol, along with an officer of the king who happened to be in the area at the time. The author of First Machabees praised Mathathias for the attack, comparing it to Phineas' double murder in Numbers 25. 

After the attack at the altar, Mathathias and his friends "gathered an army and slew the sinners in their wrath and the wicked men in their indignation."
Mathathias and his friends ... gathered an army, and slew the sinners in their wrath, and the wicked men in their indignation. 1 Machabees 2:44
(The text doesn't say who the wicked sinners were, but I suppose any Gentile or Jew who wasn't Jewish enough would do.)
Next Mathathias' mob threw down altars.
And Mathathias and his friends went round about, and they threw down the altars. 2:45
And valiantly circumcised all the uncircumcised children they could find.
And they circumcised all the children whom they found in the confines of Israel that were uncircumcised: and they did valiantly. 2:46
(According to the story in 1 Machabees, Antiochus had made circumcision illegal, so there were lots of uncircumcised boys running around. Mathathias and his merry men inspected every little penis in Israel to make sure it was properly circumcised, and if not, they cut off the offending foreskin themselves.)
So by slaying the wicked sinners and cutting off foreskins, Mathathias and his mob of terrorist  "yielded not the horn to the sinner."
They yielded not the horn to the sinner. 2:48
And that's the important thing. Never yield the horn to the sinner.
(The text doesn't say how many wicked sinners were killed by Mathathias' army, so I'll just add another 100 to God's total.)
Posted by Steve Wells at 10/27/2012 09:59:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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 TWF said...
I can't believe this isn't part of the canon. It seems pretty much like the rest of the Bible so far.
Sat Oct 27, 03:12:00 PM 2012 
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 26 October 2012You've done an awesome job, Enos!
Guess what words the Book of Enos starts with.
I'll give you a hint. It's he same phrase that the previous two books of the Book of Mormon  (2 Nephi and Jacob) started with, and it is used (by my count anyway) 1424 times in the Book of Mormon.
That's right. It came to pass.
Behold, it came to pass that I, Enos, knowing my father that he was a just man -- for he taught me in his language.  Enos 1
So now we know that the little book of Enos was written by Enos ("I, Enos") in the language of his father, Jacob.
As I'm sure you'll recall, at the end of the last book (the Book of Jacob) Jacob ("I, Jacob") "began to be old" and gave his plates to his son Enos, before bidding us all "adieu."
And it came to pass that I, Jacob, began to be old. ... And I, Jacob, saw that I must soon go down to my grave; wherefore, I said unto my son Enos: Take these plates. ... And I make an end of my writing upon these plates, which writing has been small; and to the reader I bid farewell, hoping that many of my brethren may read my words. Brethren, adieu. Jacob 7:26-27
Now you might get the impression from Jacob's use of the word "adieu" that Jacob spoke French, but he didn't. He spoke good, old-fashioned Reformed Egyptian like all other native Americans in 500 BCE. He just threw in the word "adieu" (which originated in late 14th century Europe) to impress you.


But back to the story (translated by Joseph Smith into 17th century English from the Reformed Egyptian).

One day Enos went out to hunt beasts in the forest when a voice in his head started talking to him.
Behold, I went to hunt beasts in the forests .. And there came a voice unto me, saying: Enos.... Enos 1-5
Enos has a long conversation with the voice in his head that he believes to be God. The voice tells him that he is forgiven through his faith in Jesus. And that whatever he asks "in the name of Christ," he will receive (as a reward for believing in someone who wouldn't exist for another 500 years). God also "covenanted" with Enos, saying he'd preserve his plates with the Lamanites.


And I said: Lord, how is it done? And he said unto me: Because of thy faith in Christ, whom thou hast never before heard nor seen. And many years pass away before he shall manifest himself in the flesh. Enos 5-8
Behold, the voice of the Lord came into my mind again, saying: I will visit thy brethren according to their diligence in keeping my commandments. I have given unto them this land, and it is a holy land; and I curse it not save it be for the cause of iniquity; wherefore, I will visit thy brethren according as I have said; and their transgressions will I bring down with sorrow upon their own heads. 10
The Lord said unto me: I will grant unto thee according to thy desires, because of thy faith. 12
The Lord God ... said unto me: Whatsoever thing ye shall ask in faith, believing that ye shall receive in the name of Christ, ye shall receive it. 15
I did cry unto God that he would preserve the records; and he covenanted with me that he would bring them forth unto the Lamanites in his own due time. 16
And the Lord said unto me: Thy fathers have also required of me this thing; and it shall be done unto them according to their faith; for their faith was like unto thine. 18
After the voice in his head quieted down, Enos went prophesying to the Nephites about the evil, wild, ferocious, bloodthirsty, and filthy Lamanites  (Native Americans).
And now it came to pass that I, Enos, went about among the people of Nephi, prophesying. 19
And I bear record that ... the Lamanites ... were led by their evil nature that they became wild, and ferocious, and a bloodthirsty people, full of idolatry and filthiness; feeding upon beasts of prey; dwelling in tents, and wandering about in the wilderness with a short skin girdle about their loins and their heads shaven. 20a
Enos tells us a remarkable fact about the Lamanites. They were especially skilled in using the cimeter. [A Cimeter (or scimitar) is a curved sword with the sharp edge on the convex side. This type of sword did not exist at the time Enos was supposedly written (ca. 500 BCE). Indeed there is no evidence that swords of any kind existed in pre-Columbian America.] And that they only ate raw meat.
Their skill was in the bow, and in the cimeter, and the ax. And many of them did eat nothing save it was raw meat; and they were continually seeking to destroy us. 20b
The Nephites, on the other hand, were civilized people. They cooked their food and grew "all manner of grain" and had "all manner of cattle ... and also many horses."  (Cattle, horses, and European grains were absent in pre-Columbian North America.)
The people of Nephi did till the land, and raise all manner of grain, and of fruit, and flocks of herds, and flocks of all manner of cattle of every kind, and goats, and wild goats, and also many horses. 21
It wasn't easy for Enos, though, to prophesy among the Nephites because there were exceedingly many other Nephite prophets. But he did his best, speaking with exceeding harshness.
There were exceedingly many prophets among us ... And there was nothing save it was exceeding harshness, preaching and prophesying of wars, and contentions, and destructions, and continually reminding them of death, and the duration of eternity. 23a
Luckily he had read his dad's book so he knew how to talk with "exceedingly great plainness of speech," as you've no doubt already noticed.
Nothing short of ... exceedingly great plainness of speech would keep them from going down speedily to destruction. And after this manner do I write concerning them. 23b
Nephi ends his little booklet with this:
And I rejoice in the day when my mortal shall put on immortality, and shall stand before him; then shall I see his face with pleasure, and he will say unto me: Come unto me, ye blessed, there is a place prepared for you in the mansions of my Father. Amen. 27
Which reminds me of this verse from "You and me (but mostly me)" from my all-time favorite musical.
I've always had the hope,
That on the day I go to heaven.
Heavenly Father will shake my hand and say,
"You've done an awesome job, Kevin!"


The Book of Mormon is so danged inspiring!

Posted by Steve Wells at 10/26/2012 01:49:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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1 comment:
 v1car said...
"...by Elvis Presley's younger brother Enos!"
"Enos!? What kind of a name is that? How do you spell that?"
"E-N-O-S. Enos and Aaron. They're both biblical names."
"Man, if my folks called me Enos, I'd change my name!"
"What did he know? He grew up with it. He didn't care... well, at least, not until they started calling his brother 'Elvis the Pelvis'."
-- From the P.D.Q. Bach album WTWP: Classical Talkity Talk Radio
Fri Oct 26, 07:05:00 PM 2012 
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 24 October 2012The first 1 Machabees killing: Mathathias' double murder

First Machabees was written in the latter part of the second century BCE. It is considered sacred scripture to  more than a billion Christians, members of the Catholic, Orthodox, and Coptic churches. Another billion or so Christians (the Protestants) consider it apocryphal. It's one of the many things that divides the followers of Jesus, contrary to Jesus' prayer in John 17:21.
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
From which we can conclude two things:
Nothing fails like prayer (even when Jesus does the praying), and
God didn't send Jesus.
But back to the story.

The first chapter of 1 Machabees tells about the trials and tribulations of the Jews after Alexander the Great conquered Judea. His successor in the region (a century and a half later), Antiochus, desecrated the temple in Jerusalem and forced the Jews to abandon their religious traditions.

That's when Mathathias shows up.

He and his sons were so upset by the whole thing that they did what all good biblical characters do in similar situations. They...
...rent their garments, and they covered themselves with haircloth, and made great lamentation. 1 Machabees 2:14
Then Mathathias got down to business -- God's business, that is.

Mathathias saw a Jew sacrificing to idols and it grieved him -- so much in fact that his kidneys ("reins" in the Douay-Rheims Bible) began to tremble. 
There came a certain Jew in the sight of all to sacrifice to the idols upon the altar in the city of Modin, according to the king's commandment. Mathathias saw and was grieved, and his reins trembled. 2:23-24a
Which kindled his wrath, whereupon he ran up and murdered the Jew on the altar while he was offering sacrifice to his idols..
and his wrath was kindled according to the judgment of the law, and running upon him he slew him upon the altar: 2:24b
Along with one of Antiochus' officials.
Moreover the man whom king Antiochus had sent, who compelled them to sacrifice, he slew at the same time, and pulled down the altar. 2:25
That these murders were approved by God is made clear by the following verse.
And shewed zeal for the law, as Phinees did. 2:26
Mathathias was showing his zeal for the law, just like Phineas ("Phinees" in the Douay-Reims) did in  Numbers 25:7-8.
In Numbers 25, Phineas threw a spear through an interfaith couple while they were having sex, and the double murder pleased God so much that God stopped killing the Israelites with a plague (after killing 24,000). For being so "zealous for his God," Phineas was given God's "covenant of peace" and the "covenant of an everlasting priesthood."
Mathathias' double murder was as pleasing to God as Phineas'.
You just can't please God more than that.
Posted by Steve Wells at 10/24/2012 10:22:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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 20 October 2012Jacob 6-7: The sign of Sherem
In chapter 6, Jacob tells us about Jesus, who will be coming 500 or so years in the future. He warns the Nephites that they must believe in Jesus (centuries before he was born) or they'll burn forever in hell. Of course, he and his older brother, Nephi, along with their dad, Lehi, have said this many times before. But since this is the Book of Mormon, he says it again. You just can't repeat stuff too often when you're engraving it on metal plates.
Will ye ... deny the good word of Christ, and the power of God, and the gift of the Holy Ghost, and quench the Holy Spirit, and make a mock of the great plan of redemption, which hath been laid for you?
Know ye not that if ye will do these things ... ye must go away into that lake of fire and brimstone, whose flames are unquenchable, and whose smoke ascendeth up forever and ever, which lake of fire and brimstone is endless torment. Jacob 6:8-10
Jacob finally stops preaching and says goodbye, saying he won't see us again until the wicked are beaten with "the pleasing rod of God" (which is a strange thing to say since he returns in the next chapter).
O be wise; what can I say more? Finally, I bid you farewell, until I shall meet you before the pleasing bar of God, which bar striketh the wicked with awful dread and fear. Amen.  Jacob 6:11-12
In chapter 7, a guy named Sherem shows up from out of nowhere and begins to "preach many things" that "might overthrow the doctrine of Christ." Now you might think that there wouldn't be much "doctrine of Christ" in North America 500 years before Jesus was born. But if so, you haven't read (or don't entirely believe) the Book of Mormon.
There came a man ... whose name was Sherem. He began ... to declare unto them that there should be no Christ ... that he might overthrow the doctrine of Christ. Jacob 7:1-2
Sherem was a smooth talker with "perfect knowledge" and "the power of the devil." He said that Jacob had mislead the people "into the worship of a being which ... shall come many hundred years hence." But "no man knoweth of such things; for he cannot tell of things to come."
He was learned, that he had a perfect knowledge ... according to the power of the devil. And it came to pass that he came unto me ... saying: Brother Jacob ... thou goest about much, preaching that which ye call the gospel, or the doctrine of Christ. And ye have led away much of this people ... into the worship of a being which ye say shall come many hundred years hence ... this is blasphemy; for no man knoweth of such things; for he cannot tell of things to come. Jacob 7:4-7
Jacob asks Sherem if he denies that Christ will come. Sherem answers that although he doesn't believe it now, he could be convinced if Jacob could show him a sign. Jacob responds by saying, "Thou art the devil ... but if God shall smite thee, let that be a sign unto thee."
I said unto him: Deniest thou the Christ who shall come?
And he said: If there should be a Christ, I would not deny him; but I know that there is no Christ, neither has been, nor ever will be ... And it came to pass that he said unto me: Show me a sign.
And I said unto him ... thou art of the devil. Nevertheless, not my will be done; but if God shall smite thee, let that be a sign unto thee. Jacob 7:9-14
And (wouldn't you know it?) that's exactly what happens in the very next verse:
And it came to pass that when I, Jacob, had spoken these words, the power of the Lord came upon him, insomuch that he fell to the earth. Jacob 7:15
It took another five verses and three and-it-came-to-passes for God's sign to take effect, but in verse 20, Sherem finally gives up the ghost. (But not before he publicly "confessed the Christ, and the power of the Holy Ghost," admitted that he "had been deceived by the power of the devil," and said that he fully deserved and expected to go to hell.)
And it came to pass that he said unto the people ...  I desire to speak unto the people before I shall die. And it came to pass that ... he ... confessed the Christ, and the power of the Holy Ghost, and the ministering of angels. And ... that he had been deceived by the power of the devil. And he spake of hell, and of eternity, and of eternal punishment. And he said: I fear lest I have committed the unpardonable sin ... for I denied the Christ ... And it came to pass that when he had said these words he could say no more, and he gave up the ghost. Jacob 7:16-20
Jacob said that he was pleased with the whole thing, as was, no doubt, God. Hasa Diga Eebowai
Now, this thing was pleasing unto me, Jacob, for I had requested it of my Father who was in heaven; for he had heard my cry and answered my prayer. Jacob 7:22
You see, God doesn't mess around in the Book of Mormon. Believe whatever the church leaders tell you, without any evidence, without any sign. Because if you ask for a sign, God will give you one, all right. The sign of Sherem.

Challenge: How did Jacob respond to Sherem's skepticism?
Answer: By asking God to kill him. (Jacob 7:14)
After God killed Sherem, things got back to normal. The Nephites were righteous.
And it came to pass that peace and the love of God was restored again among the people; and they searched the scriptures, and hearkened no more to the words of this wicked man. Jacob 7:23
And the Lamanites were wicked.
And it came to pass that many means were devised to reclaim and restore the Lamanites to the knowledge of the truth; but it all was vain, for they delighted in wars and bloodshed, and they had an eternal hatred against us, their brethren. And they sought by the power of their arms to destroy us continually. Jacob 7:24
So the Nephites built up their military to fight the Lamanites.
Wherefore, the people of Nephi did fortify against them with their arms, and with all their might, trusting in the God and rock of their salvation; wherefore, they became as yet, conquerors of their enemies. Jacob 7:25
And Jacob grew old, got ready to die, and gave his plates to his son Enos. 
And it came to pass that I, Jacob, began to be old; and the record of this people being kept on the other plates of Nephi, wherefore, I conclude this record ... And I, Jacob, saw that I must soon go down to my grave; wherefore, I said unto my son Enos, Take these plates. Jacob 26-27
The last word that Jacob engraved on his plates was a strange one for a 6th century BCE North American Israelite writing in reformed Egyptian to use: adieu.
And I make an end of my writing upon these plates, which writing has been small; and to the reader I bid ... adieu. Jacob 27
And that ends the Book of Jacob.
The next book in the Book of Mormon is the little book of Enos, which was written by Jacob's son.  I'll get to one that soon.
Posted by Steve Wells at 10/20/2012 06:00:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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 17 October 2012Surah 96 (The Clot): Muhammad's first revelation
"The Clot" (Al-Alaq) was the first surah that Muhammad (I'll just call him "Mo") claimed to receive from Allah. Mo was about 40 years old at the time (ca. 610 CE).
Here's the story from the Hadith (Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith - 6.478), as told by Aisha, who twelve years later became Mo's favorite wife. (Since Aisha was only nine years old when her marriage to the 52-year-old Mo was consummated, she wouldn't have yet been born when this story supposedly took place.)
File:Mohammed receiving revelation from the angel Gabriel.jpg
Mo receiving the first revelation from the angel Gabriel
While Mo was sleeping in the cave of Hira, an angel appeared to him in a dream and told him to read. Mo replied that he didn't know how to read. Then the angel forced him hard to the ground, so hard he could hardly stand it.
The commencement (of the Divine Inspiration) to Allah's Apostle was in the form of true dreams in his sleep, for he never had a dream but it turned out to be true and clear as the bright daylight.Then he began to like seclusions, so he used to go in seclusion in the cave of Hira where ... one day he received the Guidance while he was in the cave of Hira.
An Angel came to him and asked him to read. Allah's Apostle replied, "I do not know how to read." The Prophet added, 'then the Angel held me (forcibly) and pressed me so hard that I felt distressed.'
The angel released him and again told him to read. And Mo again told him that he didn't know how to read.
Then he released me and again asked me to read, and I replied, 'I do not know how to read.' Thereupon he held me again and pressed me for the second time till I felt distressed. He then released me and asked me to read, but again I replied. 'I do not know how to read.'
So the angel knocked him down a third time, pressing him so hard he could hardly stand it.
Thereupon he held me for the third time and pressed me till I got distressed, and then he released me and said, 'Read, in the Name of your Lord Who has created (all that exists), has created man out of a clot, Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous. Who has taught (the writing) by the pen, has taught man that which he knew not.'
And the words in bold became the first five verses in the Quran (96:1-5).
Read: In the name of thy Lord Who createth,
Createth man from a clot.
Read: And thy Lord is the Most Bounteous,
Who teacheth by the pen,
Teacheth man that which he knew not.
When Mo woke up from his dream, he was afraid he was either a poet or possessed. (He hoped he was possessed, though, because he really hated poets.) He was so upset that he decided to commit suicide by throwing himself off a cliff. (Ibn Ishaq, p.106-7)
And I awoke from my sleep, and it was as though these words were written on my heart. Now none of God's creatures was more hateful to me than an (ecstatic) poet or a man possessed: I could not even look at them. I thought, Woe is me, poet or possessed ... I will go to the top of the mountain and throw myself down that I may kill myself and gain rest.
So he went off to do that, but while he was climbing the mountain he heard a voice from the sky saying, "O Muhammad! Thou art the apostle of God and I am Gabriel."
So I went forth to do so and then when I was midway on the mountain, I heard a voice from heaven saying, "O Muhammad! thou art the apostle of God and I am Gabriel."
When he looked up he saw the angel Gabriel with one foot on each horizon. And no matter what direction Mo looked, there was Gabriel standing in front of him, with a foot on each horizon.
I raised my head towards heaven to see (who was speaking), and Lo, Gabriel in the form of a man with feet astride the horizon ... then I began to turn my face away from him, but towards whatever region of the sky I looked, I saw him as before.
After the vision, Mo returned to Mecca, but he still wasn't sure whether the horizon-straddling sky guy was Gabriel or a satan. Luckily, Khadija (Mo's first wife) knew how to find out.
She told him that the next time the sky guy comes to visit, he should sit by her left thigh. So the next time he saw him, he sat by her left thigh. Then she asked Mo if he could still see him. He said that he could.
Next Khadija told Mo to turn around and sit on her right thigh. He did that, and she asked him, "Can you see him?" He said, "Yes, I can still see him."
Then she told him to sit on her lap. When he did that, she asked if he could still see him. And, once again, Mo said, "Yes."
Finally, Khadija threw off her veil and "disclosed her form" while Mo was sitting in her lap, and said, "Can you still see him?" This time Mo said, "No."
From this test, Khadija knew for sure that Mo's imaginary friend was an angel and not a a satan.
She [Khadija] said to the apostle of God, 'O son of my uncle, are you able to tell me about your visitant, when he comes to you?' He replied that he could, and she asked him to tell her when he came. So when Gabriel came to him, as he was wont, the apostle said to Khadija, 'This is Gabriel who has just come to me.' 'Get up, O son of my uncle, she said, 'and sit by my left thigh'. The apostle did so, and she said, 'Can you see him?' 'Yes,' he said. She said, 'Then turn round and sit on my right thigh.' He did so, and she said, 'Can you see him?' When he said that he could she asked him to move and sit in her lap. When he had done this she again asked if he could see him, and when he said yes, she disclosed her form and cast aside her veil whil the apostle was sitting in her lap. Then she said, 'Can you see him?' And he replied, 'No.' She said, 'O son of my uncle, rejoice and be of good heart, by God he is an angel and not a satan.'
Now those of you who have been corrupted by Western influences may not understand this test. So let me explain it to you.
You see, if Mo's friend was a satan, he wouldn't mind hanging around while a woman took off her veil and started messing around with a man. In fact, he'd enjoy it. But not an angel. The sight of an unveiled woman would be so disgusting to an angel, that he'd leave -- which is what Mo's friend did. Therefore, Mo's mysterious imaginary friend must be an angel. QED.
So now we know for sure that the Quran (or at least the first five verses) was revealed by an angel and not a satan.
And yet, strangely, for all of Allah, Gabriel, and Mo's shenanigans, there's not much in this surah.
Here's a summary:
Humans were created from a clot.
Thy Lord ... createth man from a clot. 96:1-2
If you deny Allah, he'll grab you by the forelock and throw you in hell.
If he denieth (Allah's guidance) ... We will seize him by the forelock - The lying, sinful forelock - [and] We will call the guards of hell. 96:13-18
(Note: The "forelock" that Allah refers to here is not what you think it is. It is, according to Muslim scholars, the prefrontal cortex. Allah will grab you by your lying, sinful prefrontal lobe and throw your ass into hell. You can read all about it here. It's just one of the many scientific miracles of the Quran.)
That's it. That's all Allah had to say in Surah 96. Maybe he'll do better in his next revelation.
Posted by Steve Wells at 10/17/2012 07:34:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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9 comments:
 TWF said...
What a brilliant test! Mo's cousin was a genius!
By the way, the angel-Mo interaction is exactly how I train my dog. Funny, but I still haven't gotten my dog to read, not matter ho much I force his head to the ground, let alone to write a Surah.
Thu Oct 18, 06:21:00 AM 2012 
 Hausdorff said...
I don't understand the whole thing with sitting by her thigh and sitting on her lap. Seems like such a strange way to put things
Thu Oct 18, 11:57:00 AM 2012 
 Steve Wells said...
Yeah, Hausdorff, I'm not sure what Khadija meant by the "sit on my thigh" thing. Maybe it involved more than that, a euphemism for hard-core Muslim hanky-panky, perhaps. Hard to say. Or maybe it meant what it said. Angels can't stand the sight of men messing around with unveiled women. Only Allah knows for sure.
Thu Oct 18, 04:50:00 PM 2012 
 Stephen said...
Oh, come on, guys! Don't you remember "sit on my lap and we'll talk about the first thing that pops up!"?
Steve Weeks
Thu Oct 18, 07:34:00 PM 2012 
 cloistered_cluttered_confused_orccc said...
I have a roommate that is an ESL student. My immediate first impression of the first paragraph or two of your essay was that the angel Gabriel was the personal anguish of studying and learning to read as an adult. It caused me to give an empathetic sigh for “Mo”. He really was struggling to learn his…Greek?
Speaking of Greek—the rest of your essay lead me view Khadija as the ultimate Fag-Hag. Forty year old gay Mo’ liked himself—a lot ;-).He really enjoyed be in seclusion where no matter in what direction he turned he fantasized about big powerful man like beings hovering over him. No matter which way he went he was always fantasizing about being over taken by a big powerful manly being. So Khadija gets the power rush of making a gay guy straight.
(By the way, the other “Mo” prophet, Joseph Smith, had fantasies of half-naked angels hovering over himself as well. From Joe the “Mo’s” experience Mormons—excuses me—members of the LSD church learn that angels have genitals unbeknownst to the Catholic Church).
What poor Khadija didn’t realize was that at eight years of age and also being Mo’s niece she didn’t cure Mo of his gaiety but rather trumped forbidden fantasy with incest and pedophilia.
I read and that is what I read.

Fri Oct 19, 08:24:00 AM 2012 
 M. Carroll said...
How does this forelock thing work if one is bald?
But seriously, isn't a forelock a horse, and not a human, thing?
Fri Oct 19, 12:24:00 PM 2012 
 Steve Wells said...
Yeah, M. Carroll, it wouldn't work for me. Allah will have a hard time grabbing me by my forelock (my lying, sinful forelock).
But I guess that's not what "forelock" means in these verses. Allah was referring to the prefrontal cortex. He will grab you by your lying, sinful prefrontal lobe and throw your ass into hell. You can read all about it here.
Sat Oct 20, 08:50:00 AM 2012 
 A-class Muhajabah said...
If you dont beleive in the Quran, Bible, Torah etc..why spend such a great amount of time reading them?.. i dont like rock music..soooo i dont listen to it!..i dont creat a whole wewbsite about why exactly i hate rock music and make in depth evaluations of the lyrics of the songs that i dont like. what the point of that, why wudnt i jst foucs my life on the things that make me happy rather then the things that dont? i am a muslim and i am really not having a dig, this is a genuine question, im not insulting (well i dont think i am) ur beleifs, and i dont care if u dont beleive in the quran thats your business it doenst affect my life..but i really want to know..WHY PUT SO MUCH EFFORT INTO SOMETHING THAT MEANS NOTHING TO YOU?
if you dont beleive in islam, WHY read the quran? its like saying you hate mikey mouse but ur guna pay lots of money and spend lots of time in disney land?
i dont get it.... unless ur agenda is to offend?
Tue Mar 19, 09:07:00 AM 2013 
 Samin said...
Thanks Mohalabah! They are hopelessly brainwashed into one way of looking at life Anglo-Saxon LSD trip. I usually dont socialize in such places only stumbled on the website for once in my life.
Sat Feb 08, 11:21:00 AM 2014 
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 16 October 2012A question for Mitt Romney in tonight's debate: Is dark skin a punishment from God?



Brother Bri Bri's readings from the Book of Mormon:
Wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them. And thus saith the Lord God: I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people ... And cursed shall be the seed of him that mixeth with their seed; for they shall be cursed even with the same cursing. And the Lord spake it, and it was done. And because of their cursing which was upon them they did become an idle people, full of mischief and subtlety, and did seek in the wilderness for beasts of prey. 2 Nephi 5:21-24
Their scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes; and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a white pure and delightsome people. 2 Nephi 30:6
(Note: In the original 1830 edition of the Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 30:6 read "white and delightsome", but this was later changed  to hide its obvious racism.)
It came to pass that those Lamanites who had united with the Nephites were numbered among the Nephites; And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites; And their young men and their daughters became exceedingly fair, and they were numbered among the Nephites. 3 Nephi 2:14-16

Posted by Steve Wells at 10/16/2012 09:22:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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3 comments:
 TWF said...
I'd almost be willing to pay for a lifetime supply of pizza for someone who asked that question!
Tue Oct 16, 01:13:00 PM 2012 
 Stephen said...
Br'er Joseph really liked the word "save" in place of "except". It's almost like he heard it and went crazy for it. Along with "and it came to pass", of course.
As Brian Dalton says in the clip, mor(m)ons are a generally well-educated and intelligent bunch. How, then, can they possibly believe this book when it is sooooooo badly written? I mean, are they cursed with a sore cursing?
Steve Weeks
Tue Oct 16, 05:45:00 PM 2012 
 skanksta said...
to be fair, the bible could bash any other candidate just as well.
There will only be progress when your presidents don't have to pretend/actually beleive in ancient books about non-existent beings.
Tue Oct 16, 07:26:00 PM 2012 
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 11 October 2012SAB Book Pre-Orders Now Available
It's been a long time coming (more than 20 years), but it's finally here.
Okay, well, it's not really here, but at least it's to the printer. And if you pre-order it now, you can save 20% off the cover price while getting free shipping. Heck I'll even sign it for you.
Here's the link.

SAB Book Advance Pre-Order


Posted by Steve Wells at 10/11/2012 08:23:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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2 comments:
 Stephen said...
Congratulations, Steve!
Ordered! Can't wait!
I'm glad you didn't include the Book of Mormon, because it's dangerous to ship chloroform through the mail.
Equally glad the SAQ (SAK?) isn't included. I'd have to construct an asbestos bookcase!
Looking forward to the SAB taking its place alongside my Revised Standard Version (given at the end of church school in 1959 even though I was already a non-believer by then), my "Junior Bible" (given to me by my grandfather, a presbyterian minister, on my second christmas in 1951... if you put it together with my copy of "Drunk with Blood", you have the reconstituted bible!), my Jefferson Bible, Drunk with Blood, God is Not Great, and The God Delusion.
Like I said, "Can't wait!"
Steve Weeks
Fri Oct 12, 06:44:00 PM 2012 
 Ydemoc said...
Hi Steve,
Great work and congratulations! I frequently visit SAB when I need a quick passage for interactions with presuppers over on Dawson Bethrick's "Incinerating Presuppositionalism" (http://bahnsenburner.blogspot.com/)
Should I have the available funds, I will purchase your book. And then I'll purchase several more, as they would make perfect Christmas gifts for some of my delusional relatives.
Thanks again for all your work!
Ydemoc


Sat Oct 13, 07:02:00 PM 2012 
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 07 October 2012Jacob 5: A tale of two olive trees (and a new SAB category)
In the last chapter, Jacob told us (using many more words than was necessary) about the difficulty of engraving words on plates. Now he tells us about two olive trees.
This is the longest and most boring chapter in the most boring book ever written (The Book of Mormon). Thirty-one times it came to pass that the trees were cumbered, grafted, pruned, plucked, dunged, and digged about for no apparent purpose, except to waste 3733 words.  I've read it several times, but I have no idea what it is about. Someone should ask Mitt Romney.
Still, I'm glad I read it, because it inspired me to create a new SAB category: the boring stuff. Now I can give the genealogies in the Bible their proper emphasis, along with pretty much all of Ezra and Nehemiah. And then, of course, there are the 19 chapters of Isaiah that God and/or Joseph Smith used as filler in the Book of Mormon.
Unfortunately, the new category won't appear in the SAB book, which has been sent off to the printer. Oh well, maybe the next edition.


Posted by Steve Wells at 10/07/2012 06:43:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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2 comments:
 Stephen said...
Don't worry,Steve! We'll be able, after a while, to tell the boring parts by the drool marks and facial impressions on the pages. ;-)
Steve Weeks
Sun Oct 07, 07:41:00 PM 2012 
 ea3e8c72-fd47-11e1-808a-000bcdcb8a73 said...
Steve, wouldn't it be faster and simpler to make a category for passages of the bible that are not boring? Otherwise, you'll have to include at least 95% of Not So Good Book!
Tue Oct 09, 07:16:00 PM 2012 
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 05 October 2012Jacob 4: On the difficulty of engraving words upon plates
Jacob begins chapter 4 by using 150 words to tell us that he can't use many words because of the difficulty of engraving words on plates.
Now behold, it came to pass that I, Jacob, having ministered much unto my people in word, (and I cannot write but a little of my words, because of the difficulty of engraving our words upon plates) and we know that the things which we write upon plates must remain; But whatsoever things we write upon anything save it be upon plates must perish and vanish away; but we can write a few words upon plates, which will give our children, and also our beloved brethren, a small degree of knowledge concerning us, or concerning their fathers --  Now in this thing we do rejoice; and we labor diligently to engraven these words upon plates, hoping that our beloved brethren and our children will receive them with thankful hearts, and look upon them that they may learn with joy and not with sorrow, neither with contempt, concerning their first parents. Jacob 4:1-3
Still, he needs to engrave his words on plates so he can tell the Nephites about the birth of Jesus, which will happen 550 or so years in the future. Of course, all this is old news by now, as it has been announced many times before by Lehi, Nephi, and himself. (See 1 Nephi 1:8-11, 10:3-11, 11.1-36, 12:6-10, 14:7, 19:8-12; 2 Nephi 9:3-54, 11:4-7, 33:10)
There is something new that he has to say, though. Well, it's new to me, anyway. Here it is:
All the holy prophets which were before us ... believed in Christ and worshiped the Father in his name. Jacob 4:4-5
Yep, that's right: All the prophets in the Hebrew scriptures (Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, etc.) believed in Jesus and worshiped God in Jesus' name -- hundreds of years before Jesus was born.
And here's something else you should know: Nephites (and I guess Mormons too) can command trees, mountains, and ocean waves to do whatever they want.
We truly can command in the name of Jesus and the very trees obey us, or the mountains, or the waves of the sea. Jacob 4:6
And then, once again, Jacob tells us about the evil Jews. (See 1 Nephi 1:19, 2:11-13, 19:13-14; 2 Nephi 10:3, 25:2 for previous insults to Jews.)
The Jews were a stiffnecked people; and they despised the words of plainness, and killed the prophets, and sought for things that they could not understand. Wherefore, because of their blindness ... they must needs fall; for God hath taken away his plainness from them ... God hath done it, that they may stumble. Jacob 4:14
Jews are "a stiffnecked people" who "despised the words of plainness," killed the prophets, and sought understanding. For this, God has blinded them and "taken away his plainness from them" so "that they may stumble."


It must have made the Jews sad when God took away his plainness from them. God's plainness is one of the things I like best about him.




Posted by Steve Wells at 10/05/2012 02:24:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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5 comments:
 Stephen said...
"We truly can command in the name of Jesus and the very trees obey us, or the mountains, or the waves of the sea." Jacob 4:6
O Crap! Romney's got the election sewed up, then! 8-O
Steve Weeks
Sat Oct 06, 06:30:00 AM 2012 
 Stephen said...
And what is this "plainness" that Joseph Smi... I mean, Jacob, likes so much? He sounds like unto an Amish or Quaker person. It's good to see that this plainness, obviously limited to the followers of Joseph Smi... I mean, Jacob, has persisted into the 21st Century. Look at the plain mor(m)on temples here:
https://www.google.com/search?q=mormon+temples&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=gq1wUIqmJemxyQGzx4HoDA&biw=1279&bih=648&sei=jq1wUPaENKPVyQGY8oC4Dw
It's obvious that the Jews didn't get the plainness... look at these synagogues:
https://www.google.com/search?q=jewish+synagogues&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=Hq9wUJ62Dqe3ywG27YG4Cg&biw=1279&bih=648&sei=KK9wUKuXBaO-yQG3kYHgBg
The difference in "plainness" is quite obvious, so it's really easy to tell who has god's favor!
Steve Weeks
Sat Oct 06, 03:27:00 PM 2012 
 Hausdorff said...
"I cannot write but a little of my words, because of the difficulty of engraving our words upon plates"
This reminds me of when people start a tweet with "this is so hard to answer in 140 characters"
Mon Oct 08, 07:40:00 AM 2012 
 Steve Wells said...
I hadn't thought of that, Hausdorff. But you're right.
In fact, I liked your comment so much that I made it this morning's tweet. Hope you don't mind.
I cannot write but a little of my words, because of the difficulty of engraving our words upon plates.
Mon Oct 08, 08:11:00 AM 2012 
 Hausdorff said...
awesome :)
Mon Oct 08, 08:21:00 AM 2012 
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 01 October 2012The book is even worse than the movie. Let's burn it.
In terms of its production quality, "The Innocence of Muslims" is an awful film, though its content was accurate enough. Muhammad was a fraud, pedophile, polygamist, and murderer. No other person in history has caused so much harm to human well-being.
But Muhammad's book (the Quran) is even worse than the man or the movie. It may in fact be the worst book ever written (although the Bible and the Book of Mormon are close competitors).
Last month, on September 11, U.S. Embassies and Consulates were attacked and four Americans were murdered because "The Innocence of Muslims" offended the sensibilities of Muslims. A week or so later, some naked Muhammad cartoons appeared that further offended them. And then on Saturday, Muslims in Bangladesh burned at least a dozen Buddhist temples and monasteries and more than 50 Buddhist homes.
But this time, it wasn't about the movie or the cartoons; it was about the book.
Someone posted a picture on Facebook of a burning Quran.  And the person who posted the picture was believed to be Buddhist. That's all it took.





Well, I think it's time that we all do what we can to offend the sensibilities of Muslims.

Watch the god-awful movie. Post a naked Muhammad cartoon. Display the image of a burning Quran on your Facebook page or website. Or burn the damned book itself. The world would be a much better place without it.

Just be sure to burn an Arabic Quran. You probably can't read it anyway, but, according to Muslims, it's the only one that Allah can read. Because Allah, it turns out, is not only imaginary, he's also monolingual.

In any case, you can always read the Quran (in English, anyway -- I, unfortunately, am also monolingual)  at the SAQ. I promise to keep it up until the last English-speaking Muslim becomes an apostate.
Posted by Steve Wells at 10/01/2012 11:19:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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9 comments:
 sinclair said...
Relevant question: My country, Russia, is going to criminalize "offending religious sensibilities" ($10k fines, jail). Yes, atheists are pretty much screwed. So I'm planning to become religious myself. Which troll religion do you recommend?
Mon Oct 01, 12:22:00 PM 2012 
 Steve Wells said...
sinclair,
I'm not sure which religion I'd choose if I was forced to pick one. After this weekend, though, I might pick Buddhism.
Good luck with your selection!
Mon Oct 01, 12:28:00 PM 2012 
 Stephen said...
Don't hold back, Steve. Tell us what you *really* think of the Koo-ran! ;-)
Steve Weeks
Tue Oct 02, 03:15:00 AM 2012 
 Steve Wells said...
Yes, Stephen, I always try to be politically correct and show proper respect when I discuss the religion of peace. I just hope I have toned down my rhetoric enough to satisfy everyone.
Tue Oct 02, 11:43:00 AM 2012 
 Steed Martin said...
Islam is the weakest religion in the world with the weakest most absent God. Most religious people will just tut if you insult their God and wonder what is wrong with you that you don't want to join in the joy of believing in their God. Muslims on the other hand can't stand any critism and this is because their inventor Mohammed couldn't stand people laughing at him and his paranoia was put into words and infected the rest of them..well not all but lots of them. As to Allah..is he deaf? They pray to him five times a day and they are still the most ignorant, poor, useless bunch economically and scientifically speaking of all humanity there is. What the flip is he doing? Thinking up rules fr nose picking that he wants people to follow no doubt.
Tue Oct 09, 10:41:00 AM 2012 
 Ahmad Naddaf said...
Read Quran and then say your opinion!
Quran is not what you see in media. Please, have a free mind and Read Quran's translation. See how Quran urges good deeds to people, dutifullness to parents, good manners, Stories of many prophets (including Jesus)... several scientific facts also mentioned in the Quran to proof that it's the word of God, who created the univirse, not the word of prophet Muhammed himself.
Please, be yourself and don't follow media or people's talks.

Thu Nov 22, 02:17:00 AM 2012 
 Ahmad Naddaf said...
Read Quran and then say your opinion!
Quran is not what you see in media. Please, have a free mind and Read Quran's translation. See how Quran urges good deeds to people, dutifullness to parents, good manners, Stories of many prophets (including Jesus)... several scientific facts also mentioned in the Quran to proof that it's the word of God, who created the univirse, not the word of prophet Muhammed himself.
Please, be yourself and don't follow media or people's talks.

Thu Nov 22, 02:19:00 AM 2012 
 Ahmad Naddaf said...
Please, have a look
http://www.whyislam.org/

Thu Nov 22, 02:22:00 AM 2012 
 Ahmad Naddaf said...
and if you have any miconceptions about Islam, Please feel free to contact me at:
ahmad.naddaf1@gmail.com
I accept all kinds of criticism if we still talk in respecful way..
I'm worry about not being able to come to this page again (lack of time) but I appreciate any contact by email
Thu Nov 22, 02:26:00 AM 2012 
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 30 November 2012Terry Jones, The Innocence of Muslims, and Leviticus 24:16
Earlier this week, an Egyptian court sentenced seven people to death for their involvement in the anti-Islam film, The Innocence of Muslims.
"The seven accused persons were convicted of insulting the Islamic religion through participating in producing and offering a movie that insults Islam and its prophet,'' Egyptian Judge Saif al-Nasr Soliman said Wednesday.
The convicted blasphemers are living outside of Egypt and so are unlikely to be executed.
Another person accused of insulting Islam is the Quran-buring Florida pastor, Terry Jones. His case is scheduled for December 29.*
The strange thing about all this is this: The Quran does not specify the death penalty for blasphemy. (Not directly, anyway.**)
But the Bible sure as hell does.
He that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him. Leviticus 24:16
 God commands believers to kill blasphemers -- by stoning them to death.
Why are Muslims the only ones who obey him? ***
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* I've spent a fair amount of time at this blog and the SAQ insulting Islam and its prophet (peanut butter and pig's fat be upon him). How come there's no death sentence out on me? I'm kind of insulted.
** There is a verse in the Quran that is applied in blasphemy cases.
The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom. Quran 5:33
Blasphemers "make war on Allah and His messenger" so they should "be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off" and then, of course, be tormented by Allah in hell forever.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*** I've tried to get an answer from Bible believers about this, but without success.
Here are my questions.
Would it be wrong to obey God's command in Leviticus 24:16 today?
Was it ever right to obey it?
Posted by Steve Wells at 11/30/2012 12:16:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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3 comments:
 Carmelita Spats said...
Blasphemy is a blast-for-me but apparently, if you are a member of the rock group "Pussy Riot", blasphemy will land you in a Siberian prison for offending parishioners and the Orthodox faith:
http://rt.com/news/pussy-riot-appeal-hearing-354/
I've asked Christians about the issue of killing blasphemers. The replies that I get are that God operated under a different historical context at the time so killing blasphemers was necessary for His purpose-driven, mysterious, plan to "develop". Stoning blasphemers was justified and necessary at that particular point in history. However, Yahweh's kid changed everything because loving the blasphemer trumps Leviticus...except if you are a member of "Pussy Riot" in which case you end up in Siberia.
Sat Dec 01, 08:11:00 AM 2012 
 Stephen said...
Do we have even a single, credible account of a blasphemer being punished directly by god? For an omnipotent being, he is either remarkably tolerant or remarkably powerless. It's funny how the only ones who are ever "caught" are the ones whose blasphemy is known to others. This leads me to conclude that "god" is so insignificant he might as well not exist.
Oh. That's right... he doesn't.
Steve Weeks
Sat Dec 01, 07:47:00 PM 2012 
 Jferrin said...
Stephen, you of course know my position on this, but there is another option: that what the Bible tells us is blasphemous is not in fact blasphemous. That way God could maintain his all-powerfullness and not punish people for what the Bible says is wrong. Either way the Bible and those that follow it have some explaining to do.
Mon Dec 03, 10:53:00 AM 2012 
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 26 November 2012Mosiah 7: A Nephite Family Reunion
Hello everyone!  This is Philip, Steve's son.  I have been working on editing the SAB book these last 8 months, and now I'll be blogging the Book of Mormon.  With my help, we're hoping to get the Book of Mormon out in 2013.  Steve will be continuing with the Apocrypha and his regular posts.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The last chapter ended with King Benjamin appointing Mosiah as the new King.  Well, things were going pretty good for King Mosiah II (his grandfather was also named Mosiah, remember?), and the first three years of his reign were peaceful.  But he was getting a little bored, and was wondering about his brethren who had left Zarahemla years ago 
7.1 And now, it came to pass that after king Mosiah had had continual peace for the space of three years, he was desirous to know concerning the people who went up to dwell in the land of Lehi-Nephi, or in the city of Lehi-Nephi; for his people had heard nothing from them from the time they left the land of Zarahemla; therefore, they wearied him with their teasings.
So he sent a search party to the land of Lehi-Nephi to go looking for them.  He sent 16 of his finest men, and  Ammon (a strong and mighty man) was to be their leader.
7:2 And it came to pass that king Mosiah granted that sixteen of their strong men might go up to the land of Lehi-Nephi to inquire concerning their brethren.
7:3 And it came to pass that on the morrow they started to go up, having with them one Ammon, he being a strong and mighty man, and a descendant of Zarahemla; and he was also their leader.
After 40 days of wandering around, they set up camp on a hill north of Shilom, in the land of Nephi.  Maybe next time they'll pick a leader with a good sense of direction.
7:4 And now, they knew not the course they should travel in the wilderness to go up to the land of Lehi-Nephi; therefore they wandered many days in the wilderness, even forty days did they wander.
7:5 And when they had wandered forty days they came to a hill, which is north of the land of Shilom, and there they pitched their tents.
The next morning, Ammon and three of his best men went down into the land of Nephi to explore.  They promptly got thrown in jail by the king's guard.
7:6 And Ammon took three of his brethren, and their names were Amaleki, Helem, and Hem, and they went down into the land of Nephi.
7:7 And behold, they met the king of the people who were in the land of Nephi, and in the land of Shilom; and they were surrounded by the king's guard, and were taken, and were bound, and were committed to prison.
After two days in jail, the king brought them out for questioning.  He told them that he was Limhi (the son of Noah, who was the son of Zeniff, who came up out of the land of Zarahemla) and then asked them to explain why they were there, or else be put to death.  Seems fair.
7:8 And it came to pass when they had been in prison two days they were again brought before the king, and their bands were loosed; and they stood before the king, and were permitted, or rather commanded, that they should answer the questions which he should ask them. 
7:9 And he said unto them: Behold, I am Limhi, the son of Noah, who was the son of Zeniff, who came up out of the land of Zarahemla to inherit this land, which was the land of their fathers, who was made a king by the voice of the people. 
7:10 And now, I desire to know the cause whereby ye were so bold as to come near the walls of the city, when I, myself, was with my guards without the gate? 
7:11 And now, for this cause have I suffered that ye should be preserved, that I might inquire of you, or else I should have caused that my guards should have put you to death. Ye are permitted to speak.
Ammon bows and thanks King Limhi for not already killing him, and for letting him explain himself.  There is so much to be thankful for!
7:12 And now, when Ammon saw that he was permitted to speak, he went forth and bowed himself before the king; and rising again he said: O king, I am very thankful before God this day that I am yet alive, and am permitted to speak; and I will endeavor to speak with boldness;
After Ammon tells his story, Lemhi is pleased.  As it turns out, right now his people are being forced to pay a high tribute to the Lamenites, and he figures that his long-lost brethren in Zarahemla will help him out of the mess.
7:13 For I am assured that if ye had known me ye would not have suffered that I should have worn these bands. For I am Ammon, and am a descendant of Zarahemla, and have come up out of the land of Zarahemla to inquire concerning our brethren, whom Zeniff brought up out of that land.
7:14 And now, it came to pass that after Limhi had heard the words of Ammon, he was exceedingly glad, and said: Now, I know of a surety that my brethren who were in the land of Zarahemla are yet alive. And now, I will rejoice; and on the morrow I will cause that my people shall rejoice also.
7:15 For behold, we are in bondage to the Lamanites, and are taxed with a tax which is grievous to be borne. And now, behold, our brethren will deliver us out of our bondage, or out of the hands of the Lamanites, and we will be their slaves; for it is better that we be slaves to the Nephites than to pay tribute to the king of the Lamanites.
So King Lemhi set Ammon and his men free, and allowed them to eat, drink and rest in the city.  He even sent a few guards to collect the rest of the men who were still camping on the hill.
7:16 And now, king Limhi commanded his guards that they should no more bind Ammon nor his brethren, but caused that they should go to the hill which was north of Shilom, and bring their brethren into the city, that thereby they might eat, and drink, and rest themselves from the labors of their journey; for they had suffered many things; they had suffered hunger, thirst, and fatigue.
Then King Lemhi sent a proclamation to all his people, telling them to gather together for a speech (oh boy!).  Once everyone gathers around, he gives them the good news: "The time is at hand, or is not far distant, when we shall no longer be in subjection to our enemies."
He then preaches for a little while about how the tribute was their fault in the first place; that it was a punishment sent from the Lord because of their iniquity.  Luckily, God is now giving them a second chance.
7:18 And it came to pass that when they had gathered themselves together that he spake unto them in this wise, saying: O ye, my people, lift up your heads and be comforted; for behold, the time is at hand, or is not far distant, when we shall no longer be in subjection to our enemies, notwithstanding our many strugglings, which have been in vain; yet I trust there remaineth an effectual struggle to be made.
 7:25 For if this people had not fallen into transgression the Lord would not have suffered that this great evil should come upon them. But behold, they would not hearken unto his words; but there arose contentions among them, even so much that they did shed blood among themselves.
7:33 But if ye will turn to the Lord with full purpose of heart, and put your trust in him, and serve him with all diligence of mind, if ye do this, he will, according to his own will and pleasure, deliver you out of bondage.
Posted by Philip Wells at 11/26/2012 03:04:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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5 comments:
 Stephen said...
Hi, Philip,
Welcome aboard! Looking forward to reading the mad-cap misadventures of Joseph Smith and his gang. Cheers!
Steve Weeks
Mon Nov 26, 06:18:00 PM 2012 
 Philip Wells said...
Thanks, Steve! It sure is a crazy adventure. I'm going to try to do at least two posts a week, so expect more Book of Mormon!
Mon Nov 26, 07:47:00 PM 2012 
 Jferrin said...
Hello Phillip. I have been reading SAB and Dwindling for awhile now and until recently remained quiet. Love teh work your father has done and hope to see you follow in his footsteps.
Tue Nov 27, 10:49:00 AM 2012 
 Philip Wells said...
Thanks, Jferrin!
Wed Nov 28, 12:32:00 PM 2012 
 skanksta said...
x3
Thu Nov 29, 03:43:00 AM 2012 
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 23 November 2012The Machabees brothers (Simon, Judas, and Jonathan) slaughter the heathens
After the Hanukkah killings. the Gentiles gathered together to fight the Israelites, who sent messengers "with their garments rent" to Judas asking for help.
The Gentiles ... assembled themselves together against the Israelites ... to destroy them. 1 Machabees 5:9
There came other messengers out of Galilee with their garments rent. 5:14
And they asked the right guy.
Judas and his brothers (Simon and Jonathan) attacked the Gentiles in Galilee and Galaad.
Judas said to Simon his brother: Choose thee men, and go, and deliver thy brethren in Galilee: and I, and my brother Jonathan will go into the country of Galaad. 5:17
Simon killed 3000 Galilean heathens and took their wives and children captive.
Simon went into Galilee, and fought many battles with the heathens: and the heathens were discomfited before his face." 5:21
And there fell of the heathens almost three thousand men, and he took the spoils of them. 5:22
And he took ... their wives, and children, and all that they had." 5:23
Judas and his army went to Bosor and "slew every male with the edge of the sword, took all their spoils, and burnt it with fire."
Judas and his army suddenly turned their march into the desert, to Bosor, and took the city: and he slew every male by the edge of the sword, and took all their spoils, and burnt it with fire. 5:28
Then they retreated to their fortress.
They ... went till they came to the fortress. 5:29
The next day they saw "people without number" preparing to attack.
And it came to pass ... when they lifted up their eyes, behold there were people without number, carrying ladders and engines to take the fortress. 5:30
So they sounded their trumpets and cried out in prayer, which scared the hell out of Timotheus' army, who fled away in terror as Judas' men killed "almost eight thousand."
The cry of the battle went up to heaven like a trumpet. 5:31
And they sounded their trumpets, and cried out in prayer. 5:33
The host of Timotheus understood that it was Machabeus, and they fled away before his face: and they made a great slaughter of them: and there fell of them in that day almost eight thousand men. 5:34
Then Judas did unto the city of Maspha as he did to Bosor -- burning it to the ground after killing every male "with the edge of the sword."
And Judas turned aside to Maspha, and assaulted, and took it, and he slew every male thereof, and took the spoils thereof, and burnt it with fire. 5:35
Then he went and did likewise to "Casbon, and Mageth, and Bosor, and the rest of the cities of Galaad." (I guess he slaughtered Bosor again just for the heck of it.)
From thence he marched, and took Casbon, and Mageth, and Bosor, and the rest of the cities of Galaad. 5:36
Although Timotheus and his army ran away from Judas a few verses ago (5:34), he's back now with an "exceeding great" army. General Tim comes up with a great plan: if Judas is afraid to come near, Tim's army will win; if Judas isn't afraid to come near, Judas will win. Judas wasn't afraid, so Judas won.
But after this Timotheus gathered another army ... exceeding great 5:37-38
And Judas went to meet them. 5:39
And Timotheus said to the captains of his army: When Judas and his army come near ... if he pass over unto us first ... he will certainly prevail over us. 5:40
But if he be afraid to pass over ... we ... shall prevail against him. 5:41
Now when Judas came near ... he passed over to them first ... and all the heathens were discomfited before them, and they threw away their weapons, and fled to the temple that was in Carnaim. 5:42-43
All the heathens were discomfited before them, and they threw away their weapons, and fled to the temple that was in Carnaim. And he took that city, and the temple he burnt with fire. 5:44
Next Judas commands his soldiers to attack the great city of Ephron, kill every male, and then burn it.
They came as far as Ephron: now this was a great city. 5:46
Then Judas commanded proclamation to be made ... that they should make an assault. 5:49
They slew every male with the edge of the sword, and he razed the city, and took the spoils thereof, and passed through all the city over them that were slain. 5:51
To thank him for helping them slaughter the Gentiles, Judas and his brothers killed some animals for God.
And they went up to mount Sion with joy and gladness, and offered holocausts, because not one of them was slain, till they had returned in peace. 5:54
Then Judas and his brethren attacked the children of Esau, burned walls and towers in Chebron, destroyed the all the altars and statues in the land of the aliens and strangers, and took the spoils of their cities.
Then Judas and his brethren went forth and attacked the children of Esau, in the land toward the south, and he took Chebron, and her towns: and he burnt the walls thereof and the towers all round it. 5:65
And he removed his camp to go into the land of the aliens, and he went through Samaria. 5:66
And Judas turned to Azotus into the land of the strangers, and he threw down their altars, and he burnt the statues of their gods with fire: and he took the spoils of the cities. 5:68
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So how heathens did God help the Machabees brothers kill?
3000 from Galilee
Every male in Bosor (1000 estimate)
8000 soldiers in Timotheus' army
Every male in Maspha (1000 estimate)
Every male in Casbon, and Mageth, and Bosor, and the rest of the cities of Galaad (5000 estimate)
All the heathens in Timotheus's army (10,000 estimate)
Every male in Ephron (5000 estimate, since Ephron, as skanksta noted below, was "a great city")
The children of Esau (1000 estimate)
Chebron (1000 estimate)
Samaria (1000 estimate)
Azotus in the land of the strangers (1000 estimate)
So there were at least 11,000 victims, with a total estimate of 32,000



Posted by Steve Wells at 11/23/2012 02:23:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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5 comments:
 yminoh said...
Baruch Hashem!
Sun Nov 25, 08:09:00 AM 2012 
 Steve Wells said...
Blessed be God (Baruch Hashem) for killing so many people? Is that the idea, yminoh?
Sun Nov 25, 10:14:00 AM 2012 
 yminoh said...
Baruch Hashem...that Israelites were not destroyed.
-Killing so many people...sux!

Sun Nov 25, 12:12:00 PM 2012 
 skanksta said...
Pedantic point of order Steve,
Ephron - "now THIS was a great city..."
IMO 'great cities' should be estimated as 5,000 dead ? I'd be happy with 2,000 as a minimum; but surely great cities require greater slaughter ?
thanks,
@ ymnioh - yeah nice one god; great stuff saving those Israelites !
Thu Dec 06, 01:43:00 AM 2012 
 Steve Wells said...
Hey thanks skanksta! I missed the fact that Ephron was "a great city." Great cities always have at least 5000 people.
Thu Dec 06, 09:37:00 AM 2012 
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Dwindling In Unbelief



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This Blog
     
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 20 November 2012All the fat is the Lord's: The Bible's guide to Thanksgiving dinner
There are some things that God cares deeply about -- sex, foreskins, menstruation, and animal sacrifice, for example.
And food.
Most Christians forget about that. They prepare and eat food on Thanksgiving that God abhors, while thanking him for it. And it really pisses him off (insofar as an imaginary being can be pissed off, that is).
Don't make that mistake this Thanksgiving.
Here are some suggestions for a biblically correct Thanksgiving dinner.
Some things are abominations to God. Don't eat them. This includes:
pork (No Thanksgiving ham),
The swine ... is unclean to you ... their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch. Leviticus 11:7-8
clams, lobsters, shrimp,
All that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you: Leviticus 11:10
four-legged creeping fowls,
All fowls that creep, going upon all four, shall be an abomination unto you. Leviticus 11:20
most four-legged flying creeping things with legs above their feet (grasshoppers, locusts, and beetles are exceptions)
All other flying creeping things, which have four feet, shall be an abomination unto you. Leviticus 11:21-23
Every creeping thing that flieth is unclean unto you: they shall not be eaten. Deuteronomy  14:19
whatever crawls on its belly, goes on all four, or has lots of legs
Whatsoever goeth upon the belly, and whatsoever goeth upon all four, or whatsoever hath more feet among all creeping things that creep upon the earth ... are an abomination. Leviticus 11:42
Don't eat anything with blood. (No goddamned Thanksgiving blood sausage)
Ye shall eat no manner of blood, whether it be of fowl or of beast. Leviticus 7:26
Ye shall not eat any thing with the blood. Leviticus 19:26
Don't eat anything with fat (God loves fat and he doesn't like to share. So no animal fat or gravy.)
All the fat is the Lord's. Leviticus 3:16
Ye shall eat no manner of fat. Leviticus 7:23
Don't eat any uncircumcised fruit.
When ye shall come into the land, and shall have planted all manner of trees for food, then ye shall count the fruit thereof as uncircumcised: three years shall it be as uncircumcised unto you: it shall not be eaten Leviticus 19:23
OK, but what can be eaten on Thanksgiving without upsetting God too much?
Here are a few biblically-based suggestions.
Invite your family, friends, and neighbors over for Thanksgiving.
And eat them.
Ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat. Leviticus 26:29
Thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters. Deuteronomy 28:53
I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend. Jeremiah 19:9
The fathers shall eat the sons in the midst of thee, and the sons shall eat their fathers. Ezekiel 5:10
Eat the flesh of your own arm and get drunk on your own blood (as with sweet wine).
They shall eat every man the flesh of his own arm. Isaiah 9:19-20
I will feed them ... with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine. Isaiah 49:26
Spice things up a little. Eat your own dung and drinking your own piss.
Hath my master sent me to thy master, and to thee, to speak these words? hath he not sent me to the men which sit on the wall, that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own piss with you? 2 Kings 18:27, Isaiah 36:12
Bake some Ezekiel 4:12 bread.
Take thou also unto thee wheat, and barley, and beans, and lentiles, and millet, and fitches, and put them in one vessel, and make thee bread thereof. Ezekiel 4:9
And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man. Ezekiel 12
But what about turkey? Is it OK to eat turkey on Thanksgiving?
Well, that is a disputed topic.
I'll let the Bible believers fight it out.
Posted by Steve Wells at 11/20/2012 06:50:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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24 comments:
 Stephen said...
Happy Thanksgiving, Steve!
One of the things I'm thankful for is "Dwindling in Unbelief".
Cheers,
Steve Weeks
Tue Nov 20, 09:09:00 PM 2012 
 GMpilot said...
Ha! Now that's food for thought!
Tue Nov 20, 09:40:00 PM 2012 
 Love Bomb said...
Man if I were to even try to follow "The bible" I wouldn't be able to eat shrimp! That seals it, I'm an athiest.
Wed Nov 21, 08:05:00 AM 2012 
 Stephen said...
Another thing I'm thankful for is creationists. Life would be so much less amusing with their crazy claims about the madcap misadventures of their deity. It's also good to have a lower limit for human intelligence, so there's a standard to measure progress against... it's only "up" from there!
Happy Thanksgiving.
Steve Weeks
Thu Nov 22, 07:13:00 AM 2012 
 Jason Kemp said...
Are all creationists illiterate?
Thu Nov 22, 11:34:00 AM 2012 
 Stephen said...
Jason Kemp said...
"Are all creationists illiterate?"
Well, Jason, the amzaing thing is, no they're not. But when you see lots of spelling and punctuation errors bcoz the divine spell-checker is not working, you shd realize you are in the presence of one who IS. ;-)
Steve Weeks
Thu Nov 22, 12:20:00 PM 2012 
 Pamela Rdz said...
Don't know what made me laugh more, the post or the crazy creationist comment xD
Happy Thanksgiving to everyone that can eat whatever they want :D
Thu Nov 22, 01:10:00 PM 2012 
 Stephen said...
Where did our apologist go?
I guess deleting the comments is the best way to cut the losses, though. Not likely to make any converts here.
:-)
Steve Weeks
Sat Nov 24, 03:54:00 PM 2012 
 Tycoon Branding said...
No Steve, I think your apologist doesn't like hypocrites. I like your blog fine but when it comes to you being just like the Christians who hold on to the bible no matter what anybody tells; you don't want to listen to what "creationist" or anyone else tries to tell you. Christians would try to explain but you would chicken out, playing sacarstict when you don't know what to say.
You are totally convinced that God doesn't exist. You think just becoz the bible has faults and scientists believe the world just evolved somehow. People experience things, things you will never believe unless you experience them or you heard them from scientists I guess.
But scientists have turned things around; they gave most of these things a name "psychological problems." God is believed to communicate through one's mind so is the devil. Think of it as how a computer virus works. Computers and viruses didn’t just evolve, then how did the human brain?
Scientists believe mental problems come from our everyday problems or genetic inheritance. Did you know Muslims and Christians have always believe that demons are passed on to family generations and that they can destroy your mind, make you suffer or even kill you? These things are believed to be spirits; how the hell did they know they pass on to family generations while they didn't know shit about science.
In remote villages, Arabic coasts, even Zanzibar coast a lot of weird things happen. Whatever happens to these people like speaking in tongues, being possessed, gay suicides, and no educated person believes becoz they say they are psychological problems, but who said God or the Devil works from any other thing than the mind which affects neurons and the whole being. If anything God is a scientist and it is how he works, he doesn’t always show up in your room.
There is a sister call Sister Briedge McKenna, she has the biggest healing ministry, If you really want to know If God exists, look for her, If you don't then you will know why Christians won't leave the bible because they are blinded by faith just like you.

Sun Nov 25, 05:03:00 AM 2012 
 Stephen said...
I don't think it's hypocrisy to call "Bull Shit". You need to read a good book on evolution; I recommend "Why Evolution is True", by Jerry Coyne. You probably wouldn't be caught dead with anything by Richard Dawkins, though "The Greatest Show on Earth" gives an excellent explanation of evolution. And neither I nor, I dare say, any of the other posters here is "blinded by faith". Mark Twain said "Faith is believin' what you know ain't so." I happen to think he was right.
As for Sister Briedge McKenna, when I see verifiable evidence that she has healed an amputee, meaning a missing limb has been restored to both form and function, I will worship the ground she walks on.
Your move.
Steve Weeks (not Steve Wells, BTW)
Sun Nov 25, 12:30:00 PM 2012 
 Carmelita Spats said...
Great post! I love your blog! It is a breath of fresh air and I enjoy your humor/wit! I am currently reading your annotated Book of Mormon and could not stop laughing my socks off when Nephi and company had to eat raw meat (sweetened by god), the weird compass/ball that floats around the desert, god physically shocking the hell out of Nephi's brothers, the use of "exceedingly" and "and it came to pass", the whole rant about Nephi's loins, Nephi's nameless women who birth in the desert, etc.
As I read, I've made a concerted effort to visualize the scenes and I'm laughing to the point of busting a gut! I was in Israel this summer and there is NO WAY anyone can trek from Jerusalem to the Red Sea (Eilat) in four days...ROFLMAO! I'm beginning to see the BOM as a dark comedy! I also love the fact that you don't censor your blog & allow all kinds of comments. Good for you! Thanks! I plan to be a regular reader & will recommend it! :D
Sun Nov 25, 12:44:00 PM 2012 
 christmasbb said...
Poor Steve! You are like a man who has locked himself in a round room and then decided to go sit in the corner.
I chose a church to support my spirituality. I chose one that accepts evolution, allows that the Bible is divinely inspired, and advises me that it is more like a library than a textbook. My religion/church tells me my library of divinely inspired books includes books of biography, history, poetry, myth, and recordkeeping. That library documents the history of mankind's relationship with God from the Judaic perspective through the first few years after Christ. The Qur`an documents the Arabic world's history of the relationship of man with God. Man has evolved.
Man once believed God would tell him (Abraham) to go kill his only begotten son (Isaac) as proof of faithfulness. Mankind evolved.
Man once believed the proper thing to do with a thief was to cut off his hand (Islamic law). Civilized societies don't believe that anymore.
If your religion does support your connection with ans understanding of the "divine whatever," try astronomy. But picking apart the sacred? Does that make you feel intelligent? I'm guessing you are cynical and resentful at some church that burned you, but any physician or religious person can advise you to drop the resentment and find something more constructive, less self-absorbed, to do with your time.
I choose to believe; when I enter the round room I choose to dance; not look for the corner.
But go right ahead; at least you are reading.

BB
Mon Nov 26, 01:42:00 AM 2012 
 Stephen said...
Yes, I need to join a "feel-good" church that lets me cherry-pick the scriptures and call it "evolution". Thanks for that advice; enjoy your dance! :-)
Steve Weeks
Mon Nov 26, 04:11:00 AM 2012 
 Tycoon Branding said...
Oh! I read Richard Dawkins premature conclusion theories. He is absolutely ignorant (or chooses to be) of the fact that the universe let alone earth is too big and complex for him to be a know it all.
Steve, how will you know if Sister Briedge heals while you are against God like Lucifer and Vishnu put together?
I was almost like you, only I tried researching from the believers. I was humble and repent full for real coz I was very sick; I had diabetes that made me faint hopelessly, I was continuously depressed, I had no job, I was full of self pity, I was about to go nuts with the thought of does or doesn't God exists. I was obsessed with God.
One day I met the book by sister Briedge "miracles do happen". I read it all. So I prayed n promised 2go to church the next morning for the Eucharist even though I was not baptised or anything and Steve for the sake of just so yo I cried like a kid during that mass while. I felt happy that day and relieved, something that never happened when I talked to anyone else. I Kept saying in my head “Jesus go away for now please they'll think I am loosing it" and after mass I went straight to check diabetes, it was gone! The very same day my dad introduced me to this university principle and I got a job as a lecturer which I began the following Monday. And there is much more i could tell u, some are just extra ordinary coincidences and some are doubtlessly miracles. But that didn’t help like 2years later when prayers were not answered, I went back to reading "Does God exists blogs?" and the depression returned like a charm. Here I am in doubt again almost about to believe you.
When you tell an unbeliever about a miracle and they say "it's just in ur mind" its like smoking weed and telling someone you r high on weed and they say "no you are not high on weed, it's just psychological" you don't know what else to say to them.
Steve people don't hold on to the bible because it's so correctly perfect, it because of their walk with that big guy; God. People are not stupid, yes they are a little silly becoz they give ridiculous explanations when you point to them faults in the bible. All that is becoz they don't take the bible as a sign post to God written by normal men, with their own experiences and exaggerations and all.
BTW How'd did you know I thought it was Steve Wells? r u the devil? lol!

Mon Nov 26, 10:38:00 AM 2012 
 Jferrin said...
Tycoon, you mention that you have or had a job as a lecturer at a college... please tell me which college so I can avoid sending my children there. You have demonstrated an inability to write with even the most basic understanding of grammar and demonstrate a lackluster at best attempt at compiling cogent thoughts in a structured format.
You ramble and rant, proselytize and promote bullshit because you believe... you have no proof. Faith healing is bullshit. Prayer has proved ineffectual in every clinical study ever performed throughout the history of mankind. Your God does not exist. All proof points to undermine your credibility and that of your belief and yet you and your ilk continue to bleet on and on about the greatness of God and the love of your saviour. Do us all a favor, shut up. Keep your bat-shit insane craziness to yourself. We do not care about your imaginary friend. We do not care that you think he is better than everyone else's imaginary friends.
Mon Nov 26, 12:05:00 PM 2012 
 Tycoon Branding said...
Jferrin? It's called the world and not everyone speaks English or always writes in English in the world. You should know that since you know everything.
You get so mad as if you had gone to hell and back, how DARE U BELIEVE you know everything? You live in your little world and think you know everything. Who the fuck does your little mind tell you, you are? A Genius or a fucking Vishnu?
I am trying to learn about the truth here not spellings and how to write like Americans to please knowitalls like you. As far as supernatural powers are concerned, you must be possessed coz there is no way you can be that mad at God! Fuck my spelling mistakes go check your demonic temper!
And JSYK, we stone gays to death in my country so your adopted kids will’ve to make it to the admission office fatherless or "imaginary motherless".
You don't know shit yet! You little programmed imaginary mother!!!!

Mon Nov 26, 01:13:00 PM 2012 
 Stephen said...
Jferrin, I guess you lose the argument, you "little programmed imaginary mother!!"
I'm glad that rapier wit isn't turned in my direction. Oh wait, maybe it is!
Tycoon, I'm not the devil; the devil is just as imaginary as your god. It was a lucky guess.
I'm glad your diabetes is under control, but I'm afraid the "gold standard" for miracles is the restoration of an amputated limb to form and function. When I see credible evidence of that, I will be grovelling at the feet of the deity responsible. Of course, I'm not holding my breath.
Steve Weeks

Mon Nov 26, 06:09:00 PM 2012 
 Carmelita Spats said...
Christmasbb brings up an interesting point concerning the Bible as a library. I first heard that analogy from a Catholic priest when I was in college. The priest told me that the Bible was like a library and that each book required a specific,specialized, "hermeneutical" approach. I became a librarian and I now see that the "library/Bible" must be weeded so that innocent bystanders don't end up dancing or squatting in a round room...or worse.
As a librarian, part of my job is to WEED my library every year. I use the acronym MUSTY to evaluate the collection after running my statistics reports. The "M" stands for MISLEADING so I weed books that are dated, contain obsolete information or racial, cultural, and sexual stereotyping. The "U" stands for ugly and refers to the physical condition of the book. The "S" stands for SUPERSEDED, newer editions are available. The "T" stands for TRIVIAL and I look for poor writing, inaccurate information,etc. The "Y" stands for "Your collection has no use for
the book.It is irrelevant to your
curriculum."
If we subject the Bible to MUSTY, I'm afraid we'd end up with a scrawny pamphlet, crumpled up somewhere in the 200 section of the Dewey Decimal System (religion and mythology)...I'm just sayin'... :D
Mon Nov 26, 06:11:00 PM 2012 
 Stephen said...
Carmelita, Thomas Jefferson did something like "MUSTY" to the New Testament... there's probably an acronym in there somewhere... using a razor blade.
That "M" thing you do... what about classics like "Huckleberry Finn"? Might that be included in "dated", "racist", "cultural", and so on?
Yes, the "library" analogy is OK to a point, but it helps to keep a skeptical eye on it (and the "Bullshit Detector" fully engaged). The different categories are scattered around, making it very difficult to believe the bible is "divinely inspired". Some of the books in *my* library, apart from the bible (RSV), are by Bart Ehrman... scholarly works that confirm that the bible is purely a product of human enterprise. I'm looking forward to adding the SAB to my shelf!
Steve Weeks

Mon Nov 26, 07:20:00 PM 2012 
 Jferrin said...
Tycoon, Not one part of my post claimed I know everything. The only thing I stated was that there is no evidence for any of your claims. None. In fact, every clinical study trying to prove your claims has turned up with squat. There is not a respected scientific journal on the planet that would publish a paper on faith healing as confirmed. Not a one would publish a paper touting the benefits of prayer. And the irony of you foaming at the mouth with anger at me, telling me to calm down when it is heaped on the irony of you telling me I think I know everything when you are teh one claiming to have a deeper understanding of reality and proof of God's existence is just too much.
I will concede that my post was not friendly. I used straight forward talk and did not beat around the bush when it came to the fact of your insanity/delusion. You believe in something despite evidence to the contrary. Just because it is important to you doesn't make that any less insane. Go look at any asylum and see how fervently the people there believe in their twisted little worlds.
Also, I do not "Believe" anything. I only take in what is observed and supported through experimentation and math. I do not make up hypothesis about the world and cling to them even when proof comes along debunking them. As we get deeper understanding, as new information comes to bear, my worldview changes. That is not the approach of a man who knows everything. You on the otherhand stay steadfast in your belief regardless of what new information is obtained. So, who is the "know-it-all"?
As for your English, well done taking on a second language (or maybe more). I do admit my assumption was you were a native speaker. My bad there.
Tue Nov 27, 06:23:00 AM 2012 
 Jferrin said...
Oh and Tycoon, my children are not adopted, nor am I gay. Nice veiled threat though about stoning me to death. Real great values you have there: Stone the people that disagree with you. Kill everyone that dare question your delusion.
There, there, don't get so worked up. Just wrap yourself in your cocoon of ignorance and block your eyes and ears and maybe, just maybe you can get back to that happy place in your mind where everything you want to be true, is.
Tue Nov 27, 08:18:00 AM 2012 
 patrickc said...
First of all, I think Jferrin was a straight out idiot to attack Tycoon on the first instance. The man (Tycoon) is just trying to share his experience. He has nothing to gain by doing so; but you might if you listen and have an open mind. I neither believe nor disbelieve what Tycoon says, but I must admit that Jferrin's reasoning does not possess much merit--at least no more than his assumptive nature.
Sat Jan 12, 04:25:00 PM 2013 
 patrickc said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Sat Jan 12, 04:34:00 PM 2013 
 patrickc said...
"You have demonstrated an inability to write with even the most basic understanding of grammar and demonstrate a lackluster at best attempt at compiling cogent thoughts in a structured format."
In the above sentence, Jferrin attacks Tycoon on the grounds that his grammar is bad. Yet the very sentence he uses to transport the attack is riddled with grammatical errors and a "lackluster at best attempt at compiling cogent thoughts in a structured format".
Let's look at the sentence a bit more closely. First, he uses "have demonstrated" which is an action that took place some time in the past and is concluded. In the same sentence, supposedly a "cogent thought in a structured format", he uses the present tense "demonstrate", which is an action that is happening "right now in real time".
At first glance, these idiots can blind anyone into "believing" they are intelligent, but as David says in Psalms, "the idiot says in his heart, there is no God". (Emphasis mine).
Sat Jan 12, 04:38:00 PM 2013 
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 17 November 2012Mosiah 2-6: The King's Speech
In the last chapter, King Benjamin waxed old, selected his son Mosiah to succeed him, and gathered all of his subjects to hear his speech so he could rid his garments of their blood.
And it came to pass that after Mosiah had done as his father had commanded him, and had made a proclamation throughout all the land, that the people gathered themselves together throughout all the land, that they might go up to the temple to hear the words which king Benjamin should speak unto them. Mosiah 2:1
I say unto you that I have caused that ye should assemble yourselves together that I might rid my garments of your blood. 2:28
But there were just too many of them. They had multiplied exceedingly. There were so many, in fact, that they couldn't be numbered or fit in the temple, so a tower had to be erected so that everyone could hear King Benjamin's exceedingly boring speech.
There were a great number, even so many that they did not number them; for they had multiplied exceedingly and waxed great in the land. 2:2
For the multitude being so great that king Benjamin could not teach them all within the walls of the temple, therefore he caused a tower to be erected, that thereby his people might hear the words which he should speak unto them. 2:7
Mosiah goes on for five chapters, saying all the usual stuff: Jesus is coming and everyone must pre-believe in him or be tortured forever in hell.
If he ... dieth in his sins, the same drinketh damnation to his own soul; for he receiveth for his wages an everlasting punishment. 2:33
Mercy hath no claim on that man; therefore his final doom is to endure a never-ending torment. 2:39
A state of misery and endless torment, from whence they can no more return; therefore they have drunk damnation to their own souls. 3:25
Their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flames are unquenchable, and whose smoke ascendeth up forever and ever. 3:27
And Mosiah isn't just making stuff up. An angel of the Lord visited him and told him all about Jesus (who would be born in another 120 years or so). This is the umpteenth time Jesus is prophesied in great detail in the Book of Mormon. It's almost as though the whole thing was written using language that mimicked the King James Version of the Bible by someone living in nineteenth century America.
But we do learn a few new things about Jesus.
He will suffer so much that blood will come out of every pore of his body. And he is not only the Son of God, he is also the Father of heaven and earth.
The things which I shall tell you are made known unto me by an angel from God. And he said unto me: Awake; and I awoke, and behold he stood before me. 3:2
For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that ... the Lord Omnipotent ... shall come down from heaven among the children of men. 3:5
He shall cast out devils, or the evil spirits which dwell in the hearts of the children of men. 3:6
And lo, he shall suffer ... blood cometh from every pore. 3:7
He shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth ... and his mother shall be called Mary. 3:8
When King Benjamin quit speaking, everyone in Zarahemla fell down.
And now, it came to pass that when king Benjamin had made an end of speaking the words which had been delivered unto him by the angel of the Lord, that he cast his eyes round about on the multitude, and behold they had fallen to the earth, for the fear of the Lord had come upon them. 4:1
And they all spoke in unison the following words:
O have mercy, and apply the atoning blood of Christ that we may receive forgiveness of our sins, and our hearts may be purified; for we believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who created heaven and earth, and all things; who shall come down among the children of men. 4:2
When the crowd was finished with their speech, the king started speaking again.
And king Benjamin again opened his mouth and began to speak unto them, saying......... 4:4-30
After King Benjamin's speech, he sent his officials out to ask the people if they believed the stuff he told them.
It came to pass that when king Benjamin had thus spoken to his people, he sent among them, desiring to know of his people if they believed the words which he had spoken unto them. 5:1
He didn't need Nate Silver to do the analysis.
Everyone believed everything he said and they all cried out together, "Yea, we believe all the words which thou hast spoken to us...."
And they all cried with one voice, saying: Yea, we believe all the words which thou hast spoken unto us; and also, we know of their surety and truth, because of the Spirit of the Lord Omnipotent, which has wrought a mighty change in us, or in our hearts, that we have no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually. 5:2
And we, ourselves, also, through the infinite goodness of God, and the manifestations of his Spirit, have great views of that which is to come; and were it expedient, we could prophesy of all things. 5:3
And it is the faith which we have had on the things which our king has spoken unto us that has brought us to this great knowledge, whereby we do rejoice with such exceedingly great joy. 5:4
And we are willing to enter into a covenant with our God to do his will, and to be obedient to his commandments in all things that he shall command us, all the remainder of our days, that we may not bring upon ourselves a never-ending torment, as has been spoken by the angel, that we may not drink out of the cup of the wrath of God. 5:5
And, by golly, those were just the words King Benjamin hoped they'd say!
These are the words which king Benjamin desired of them. 5:6
Then King Benjamin broke into one of his boring speeches again.
And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ........ 5:7-15
After King Benjamin finally finished speaking (God, I hope he's really done this time), he decided to make a list of all the born-again Christians. It turned out that everyone had been saved, except for maybe the little children -- 120 years before Jesus was born!
King Benjamin thought it was expedient, after having finished speaking to the people, that he should take the names of all those who had entered into a covenant with God. 6:1
And it came to pass that there was not one soul, except it were little children, but who had entered into the covenant and had taken upon them the name of Christ. 6:2
Benjamin made his son Mosiah king and appointed priests to instruct the people. Mosiah walked in the ways of the Lord and everything was peachy in Zarahemla, just like it was when his dad was king.
King Benjamin ... consecrated his son Mosiah to be a ruler and a king ... and also had appointed priests to teach the people." 6:3
And it came to pass that king Mosiah did walk in the ways of the Lord, and did observe his judgments and his statutes, and did keep his commandments in all things whatsoever he commanded him. 6:6
And there was no contention among all his people for the space of three years. 6:7

Posted by Steve Wells at 11/17/2012 07:00:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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1 comment:
 Eric said...
As I see it, the main point of King Benjamin's long-winded sermon is that Christ’s magical blood atonement will reverse Adam’s magical fruit transgression (3:16) mostly for unlucky-in-life kids (2:34) and counterfactually righteous grown-ups lucky enough to die ignorant (3:11)
For the rest of us it's awfully tough going since it only works if we regress into childlike helplessness (3:19), drop all pretense of self-esteem (2:25), count our lives as chronic debts (2:23-25), that we must try to pay off by begging (4:20) and blindly obeying nepotistic (1:9) self-serving (2:28) proxy kings who traffic in cheap threats (2:33, 3:25) and empty promises (2:22).
All this casts KB’s famous line,
“when ye are in the service of your fellow beings ye are only in the service of your God,” (2:17)
in a dim dehumanizing light. Indeed, if this imaginary blood-besotted god (3:15-18) was actually real, I hope I’d have the courage to say:
“Hey man, back off! Let us express our goodness without insinuating yourself into every benevolent instinct by distracting us with threat-enforced faith and blind obedience (1:11). Stop demanding we bounce every compassionate act off you. And we don’t need your name (5:9) to distinguish us (1:11) - that just divides us to the point we end up killing each other. Good grief! Let us grow up (3:19) - and call off your self-righteous prophet-kings (2:11-16) who like going around taking names. (6:1)”
Sun Feb 23, 09:38:00 AM 2014 
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 15 November 2012Mosiah 1: King Benjamin teaches his sons Reformed Egyptian
Remember how, back in the Book of Omni, the Nephites discovered the land of Zarahemla while fleeing from the evil Lamanites? Well, that's where the Book of Mosiah takes place between 130 and 92 BCE (except for a flashback to 200 BCE in chapters 9-22, which I'll cover in a later post).
King Benjamin was the son of the Mosiah from the Book of Omni. He was a perfect king and the land of Zarahemla was perfectly peaceful and happy during his entire reign.
And now there was no more contention in all the land of Zarahemla, among all the people who belonged to king Benjamin, so that king Benjamin had continual peace all the remainder of his days. Mosiah 1:1
Benjamin taught his sons Reformed Egyptian so they could read the brass plates. Good thing, too -- otherwise they'd suffer ignorance and dwindle in unbelief.
King Benjamin ... had three sons ... Mosiah, and Helorum, and Helaman. And he caused that they should be taught in all the language of his fathers. 1:1-2
And he also taught them concerning the records which were engraven on the plates of brass, saying: My sons ... were it not for these plates ... we must have suffered in ignorance. 1:3
Lehi ... having been taught in the language of the Egyptians. 1:4
Were it not for these things ... our fathers would have dwindled in unbelief. 1:5
The king told his sons that all the sayings, records, and  plates are true, along with lots of other true stuff that didn't make it into the Book of Mosiah.
These sayings are true, and also that these records are true. And behold, also the plates of Nephi ... are true. ... And many more things did king Benjamin teach his sons, which are not written in this book. 1:6-8
Then it came to pass that the king waxed old, made an end of teaching his sons, and got ready to go the way of all the earth. So he figured he'd better choose one of his sons to succeed him.
And it came to pass that after king Benjamin had made an end of teaching his sons, that he waxed old, and he saw that he must very soon go the way of all the earth; therefore, he thought it expedient that he should confer the kingdom upon one of his sons. 1:9
He chose Mosiah. (Just to confuse you, Mosiah's grandfather was also named Mosiah.)
Therefore, he had Mosiah brought before him. 1:10
And gave him all his special things: the plates of Nephi, the sword of Laban (that Nephi used to decapitate Laban), and the magic ball of curious workmanship that was made by God himself.
And it came to pass that ... king Benjamin gave him ... the plates of Nephi; and also, the sword of Laban, and the ball or director, which led our fathers through the wilderness, which was prepared by the hand of the Lord. 1:15-16
Then the king called everyone in his kingdom to hear his speech, which I'll tell you about in my next post.
Posted by Steve Wells at 11/15/2012 12:32:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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 13 November 2012A Challenge to Christians
It's been three years since I posted this and there is still no response from Bible believers. So I thought I'd try again. (Thanks for reminding me, Brucker!)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have always been amazed with how untroubled believers appear to be with God's killings in the Bible. It's good to know that I am not alone.
Here are Zinnia Jones' thoughts on the subject.


I had expected that everyone would easily recognize that ... all genocides were clearly wrong. But this was not the case. Instead, I was surprised to see that Christians were defending these genocides and claiming that they were justified. One of the reasons they offered was that the victims were so evil that they all deserved to be killed. Others said that the Israelites were in need of land, so God allowed them to conquer neighboring territories. And some even claim that anything God commands is morally right by definition and that we have no standing to question this or disobey his commands.
It was really quite startling that these excuses were so similar to the justifications used by the perpetrators of genocide. The victims were simply unworthy of life, or they needed to acquire more territory for themselves, or they were just following orders. Even more unnerving is how indifferent these people are to the realities of genocide. They apparently have no problem with killing defenseless children and treating even infants as too evil to live. It's like none of this seems real to them.
But perhaps the most disturbing aspect is that of all the Christians I've discussed this with, not one of them has been willing to condemn these genocides. Not a single one. They have all tried to defend this.
So, I'd like to issue a challenge to Christians. Can you acknowledge that genocide is wrong even if God commands it? Can you agree that genocide is never acceptable including the genocides of the Bible? Are you capable as a Christian of condemning genocide without equivocation?
And I'll add another challenge to Zinnia's: If you refuse to condemn God's genocides in the Bible, then defend them. Right here on this blog. Just pick your favorite and tell us why you like it so darned much.
Maybe you think it was especially cool that God burned people to death for complaining. Or that he sent fiery serpents to bite and kill people (again for complaining -- this time about the lack of food and water). Just pick one and tell us why you love God so much for doing it.
You can have a guest post right here and become as famous as Brucker!

Posted by Steve Wells at 11/13/2012 08:00:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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107 comments:
 PersonalFailure said...
Ask them why the Holocaust was bad, but a dozen holocausts in the Bible are totally okay? Maybe God told Hitler to do it because the Jews were getting all whingey again.
As reasonable an explanation as anything else I've seen.
Tue Nov 10, 01:22:00 PM 2009 
 Brucker said...
Hey, Steve, tell me why you don't condemn genocide without equivocation?
Case in point:
Exodus 1:16, 22 - King orders the killing of all Jewish male children, SAB makes no protest.
Numbers 22 - King seks to curse and thereafter destroy the nation of Israel, SAB makes no protest.
Esther 3:13 - King orders the killing of all Jews, SAB makes no protest.
There are probably many more examples that I could find if I were as thorough as you; however I find it odd that as thorough as you are, you had nothing to say about the injustice of other nations trying to destroy Israel, nor do you mark the putting out of Samson's eyes as cruel, violent or unjust.
What is it, anti-Semitism?
Tue Nov 10, 03:21:00 PM 2009 
 Brucker said...
Oh, and my old post on holy war brings up issues that largely apply to the issue of genocide as well.
Tue Nov 10, 03:28:00 PM 2009 
 busterggi said...
PF, there have been a few fundies who have said exactly that but they learned to shut up due to bad publicity.
Tue Nov 10, 03:42:00 PM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
Brucker,
You ask why I don't mark cruel things that are done to the Israelites (when God isn't the one doing them).
Well, the answer is pretty simple. I try to mark things that would be useful to a nonbeliever who is trying to decide whether or not to believe in the Bible. I don't see how the gouging out of Samson's eyes or the other things that you mentioned would help in that regard. So I didn't mark them.
(I do mark things that are just disgusting and pointless. Like Judges 19. There's no excuse for putting that in the Bible -- or in any other book.)
Tue Nov 10, 04:03:00 PM 2009 
 Brucker said...
A peek in the book of Acts yields:
Acts 7:58-59 - Stephen is stoned to death for no apparent crime, SAB has no comment.
Acts 9 - Seeing the above slaughter, Saul is inspired to put Christians to death, SAB has no comment.
Acts 16:22-23 - After conversion, Paul is beaten and thrown into prison for being Jewish, SAB has no comment.
Perhaps the most disturbingly absent of comment are the following acts of violence:
Matthew 26:67 Mark 14:65 Luke 22:64 John 18:22 Jesus is beaten
Matthew 27:26 Mark 15:15 John 19:1 Jesus is scourged
Matthew 27:29 John 19:2 Jesus is forced to wear thorns
Matthew 27:35 Mark 15:24 Luke 23:33 John 19:23 Jesus is crucified
Tue Nov 10, 04:13:00 PM 2009 
 twillight said...
Well, Bruckner: those are fairytales. Never happened. Part of the judeo-christian mythology only. The very one what says nonchristians/nonjews are not even human, therefor genocide is not a crime against them, but falls into the same cathegory like dealing with rat-infestation.
Tue Nov 10, 04:21:00 PM 2009 
 Brucker said...
"Well, the answer is pretty simple. I try to mark things that would be useful to a nonbeliever who is trying to decide whether or not to believe in the Bible."
Sounds pretty one-sided. I don't think you'd find too many believers in the Old Testament (Jewish, Christian, or otherwise) that think the fact that many attempts were made to wipe out the Jews throughout history is insignificant.
"I don't see how the gouging out of Samson's eyes or the other things that you mentioned would help in that regard. So I didn't mark them."
The cutting off of Adonibezek's thumbs and toes was not done by God, nor commended by Him, yet you mark it. Why is that so particularly helpful?
I don't buy your justification for how you pick and choose what to call violent. You choose what you think will best convince someone to reject the God of the Bible, and thus mark yourself as biased as those you protest against.
I guess with all the believers out there being pro-Bible, you're just being fair and balanced. You're like the Fox News of apologetics.
Tue Nov 10, 04:26:00 PM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
I suggest that everyone go and read Brucker's post on Holy War. Genocide, according to Brucker, is a very good thing when God commands it.
Tue Nov 10, 04:27:00 PM 2009 
 Brucker said...
"Well, Bruckner: those are fairytales. Never happened."
Well, twilnight, I guess there's no problem then, is there?
Tue Nov 10, 04:31:00 PM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
Sounds pretty one-sided. I don't think you'd find too many believers in the Old Testament (Jewish, Christian, or otherwise) that think the fact that many attempts were made to wipe out the Jews throughout history is insignificant.
I created the SAB for nonbelievers, Brucker. So I don't much care what believers find significant.
The cutting off of Adonibezek's thumbs and toes was not done by God, nor commended by Him, yet you mark it. Why is that so particularly helpful?
Well it was done by his followers and God didn't seem to mind one little bit. I found that helpful. So I highlighted it.
I highlight whatever I can find that I can honestly call good. If you think I've missed something, let me know and I'll add it.
I find it strange that I rarely get any suggestions from believers about what I should add to the good stuff. I suppose that's because it's all supposed to be good to a believer. When you're that fucked up, Leviticus 20:13 is just as good as Levitcus 19:18.
Tue Nov 10, 04:45:00 PM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
Brucker: Hey, Steve, tell me why you don't condemn genocide without equivocation?
I do condemn genocide without equivocation. Genocide is wrong always, everywhere, for anyone at any time and for any reason whatsoever. Can you say the same, Brucker.
But I only mark genocides in the Bible that are commanded or inspired by God. Why? Because it is only the God-approved Genocides that help people decide what to make of the Bible. How does the killing of Jewish male children in Exodus 1 help with that? If the Bible was supposedly inspired by the Pharaoh, then I'd highlight it. But it wasn't, so I don't.
But if God kills every firstborn Egyptian child and animal, I mark it. That is important information for anyone deciding whether or not to believe in the God of the Bible. You think it was wonderful, beautiful really, that God killed every firstborn child in Egypt for no reason at all. God did it; therefore, it is good. I want to rub your face in it, Brucker. That's nasty and cruel and you should be ashamed to believe it. I'm hoping that fewer and fewer people will make that mistake in the future. That's why I created the SAB.
Tue Nov 10, 05:04:00 PM 2009 
 matt311 said...
Yes, it is. I do understand why Bruckner goes through all these hoops and twisted justifications, though; I went through a similar period in my life, before I snapped out of it.
Granted, your site gave me a hand at the tail-end, but it was mostly due to actually reading the Bible obsessively in my youth and this site:
http://jesuspuzzle.humanists.net/home.htm
Best several months (it was intermittent) I ever spent looking at an Internet site; take a look yourself, Steve.
Tue Nov 10, 07:22:00 PM 2009 
 Baconsbud said...
Brucker you still haven't succeeded in showing how the genocide is a good thing. You are just trying to change the subject. Why do christians do that? The question was put to you and other christians as to how you can justify genocide in the bible but then condemn it otherwise.
Wed Nov 11, 01:50:00 AM 2009 
 busterggi said...
Now wait a minute Steve, let's condemn all the biblical genocide against the Hebrews as well as non-Hebrews. After all, its all part of Yahweh's mysterious plan so its still Yahweh's fault.
There Brucker, we've condemned even more of your psycho deity's genocide & acknowleged it to be even more psychotic. Does that make you happy?
Wed Nov 11, 04:31:00 AM 2009 
 Brucker said...
Steve Wells: "I created the SAB for nonbelievers, Brucker. So I don't much care what believers find significant."
Yes, but you're showing your bias is no better than the Bible-believer's. It's hard to be taken seriously calling Christians and Jews hypocrites when you're participating in exactly the same sort of hypocrisy. More below...
"I highlight whatever I can find that I can honestly call good. If you think I've missed something, let me know and I'll add it.
"I find it strange that I rarely get any suggestions from believers about what I should add to the good stuff."
I've made suggestions, and you always reject them. You only want something that's good from the perspective of the non-believer. Here's a classic example: John 3:16. Now while I understand the points you put on that verse in the negative, you might think that the statement that God loves the whole world would be a good thing as well. Nonetheless, I have very little doubt that I could not convince you to mark that verse as "good" no matter what I said about it.
"But I only mark genocides in the Bible that are commanded or inspired by God. Why? Because it is only the God-approved Genocides that help people decide what to make of the Bible. How does the killing of Jewish male children in Exodus 1 help with that? If the Bible was supposedly inspired by the Pharaoh, then I'd highlight it. But it wasn't, so I don't."
It's a clear matter of context. The following plagues that came upon the Egyptians weren't arbitrary, but were the result of the mistreatment that they perpetrated on the Hebrews. For that matter, by your standards, I could put together an annotated Bible with the express purpose of showing what terrible people Egyptians are; if I only choose the verses that support the premise I want, I can show whatever I want.
Baconsbud: "Brucker you still haven't succeeded in showing how the genocide is a good thing. You are just trying to change the subject. Why do christians do that? The question was put to you and other christians as to how you can justify genocide in the bible but then condemn it otherwise."
I have no interest in showing genocide is a good thing, because I don't believe that to be true. I'm not trying to change the subject so much as to point out that the SAB is no better than what Christians are here being accused of doing (many indeed may do so).
As for justifying genocide, though, that's different than saying it's a "good thing". For instance, many Jews believe that the Holocaust was allowed to occur by God because it led to the re-establishment of the nation of Israel. That doesn't make it good, but it gives it a reason.
busterggi: "There Brucker, we've condemned even more of your psycho deity's genocide & acknowleged it to be even more psychotic. Does that make you happy?"
Hey, I just hate to see people accusing others of hypocrisy when they're being just as hypocritical.
Wed Nov 11, 10:02:00 AM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
Brucker,
I don't expect you or anyone else, believer or nonbeliever, to agree with all (or even most) of my views about the Bible. I mark verses in the Bible the way that I see them. If you don't agree with me, fine. Make your own damn annotated Bible.
So don't give me shit about what I mark and don't mark. I think John 3:16 is one of the worst verses in the Bible. God loved the world so fucking much that he had his son (or himself or whatever) tortured and killed so that by believing in him (whatever that might mean, and whoever he might have been, and whether or not he ever existed) he could stop himself from torturing and killing everyone on earth forever for something that someone else (who didn't exist) supposedly did thousands of years ago that was not even wrong in the first place. And you think I should mark that as good?
Earlier you asked me why I don't condemn genocide without equivocation? And I replied, "Genocide is wrong always, everywhere, for anyone at any time and for any reason whatsoever."
Can you do the same, Brucker? Can you condemn genocide without equivocation?
(If you choose not to answer. Fine. But don't respond by complaining about how I treated this or that verse in the SAB. Or what a hypocrite you think I am. That's not what the post was about. I may be the biggest hypocrite in the world, Brucker, but the Bible is still full of shit. Your job is not to attack me, but to defend God's genocides.)
Wed Nov 11, 10:47:00 AM 2009 
 v_quixotic said...
Brucker said:
For instance, many Jews believe that the Holocaust was allowed to occur by God because it led to the re-establishment of the nation of Israel. That doesn't make it good, but it gives it a reason.
[sigh]
It's amazing the lengths apologists will go to in avoiding the use of Occham's Razor: the simplest and and most logically reasonable answer for the terrible things that happen to god's chosen people is that the loving personal god who could have softened hearts but didn't doesn't exist... just accept it!
Thu Nov 12, 04:13:00 AM 2009 
 twillight said...
I think I know why Steve did not highlight violence against the jews: because those are condemned in the Bible already. (And sometimes it is even tried to be avoided, like when the assyrians besiege Jerusalem they ask the jews to surrender, and that way avoid more death. But the jews are so much like blooshed...)
Thu Nov 12, 05:11:00 AM 2009 
 Jim said...
Brucker: The following plagues that came upon the Egyptians weren't arbitrary, but were the result of the mistreatment that they perpetrated on the Hebrews.
Uh, in Exodus it says multiple times that God "hardened Pharaoh's heart", so that he wouldn't let the Israelites go.
In other words, God intentionally made it so that Pharaoh would refuse to listen, just so that He could then have an excuse to send all the plagues (including the plague against the firstborn) to demonstrate His almighty power.
How sick is that?
Thu Nov 12, 07:39:00 AM 2009 
 Andrew said...
"I think John 3:16 is one of the worst verses in the Bible."
Hear, hear. The doctrine of the Atonement is at best bizarre and illogical, and at worst repulsive and abhorrent.
Fri Nov 13, 08:26:00 AM 2009 
 Brucker said...
Steve Wells: So don't give me shit about what I mark and don't mark. I think John 3:16 is one of the worst verses in the Bible. God loved the world so fucking much that he had his son (or himself or whatever) tortured and killed so that by believing in him (whatever that might mean, and whoever he might have been, and whether or not he ever existed) he could stop himself from torturing and killing everyone on earth forever for something that someone else (who didn't exist) supposedly did thousands of years ago that was not even wrong in the first place. And you think I should mark that as good?
Two things about that: First of all, I said that I understand your objections, but wondered why the mere fact of God loving the world might not be worth marking as good, even if you disagree with the implications.
Secondly, I have pointed out in other comments that I think it strange, since you clearly find the idea that Jesus had to die for the sins of the world a bad thing, you don't mark the passages in which He is tortured and killed as cruel, violent and unjust. Why omit such commentary on the actual accounts?
Earlier you asked me why I don't condemn genocide without equivocation? And I replied, "Genocide is wrong always, everywhere, for anyone at any time and for any reason whatsoever."
It just seems strange to me that you claim to condemn it, yet only protest instances of genocide in the Bible selectively, and those you have selected not to mark seem to be those in which genocide is against Jews only.
Can you do the same, Brucker? Can you condemn genocide without equivocation?
Without equivocation? Probably not, to be honest. I'll stand on what I said in my essay on Holy War. It may be possible that there is more going on than what we are able to fully comprehend. I will say that genocide is not a good thing, but sometimes a sorely imperfect world leads to sorely imperfect solutions to evil.
Your job is not to attack me, but to defend God's genocides.
Says who? I do this as a hobby, and the aim of my hobby is to question the assumptions of the SAB. As a corollary, I may be sometimes interested in questioning your methodology.
Sat Nov 14, 07:53:00 AM 2009 
 Brucker said...
v_quixotic: It's amazing the lengths apologists will go to in avoiding the use of Occham's Razor: the simplest and and most logically reasonable answer for the terrible things that happen to god's chosen people is that the loving personal god who could have softened hearts but didn't doesn't exist... just accept it!
I find it interesting when atheists invoke Occam's Razor, because it's one of the least convincing arguments for theists. Generally phrased as "Entities should not be multiplied needlessly," theists love to point out that if you assume God does not exist, a multiplicity of theoretical entities and fantastical random events have to be theorised in His absence. Of course I can't speak for everyone, but I for one have yet to see an explanation for things being the way they are in the world that is simpler without God.
twillight: I think I know why Steve did not highlight violence against the jews: because those are condemned in the Bible already. (And sometimes it is even tried to be avoided, like when the assyrians besiege Jerusalem they ask the jews to surrender, and that way avoid more death. But the jews are so much like blooshed...)
What are you talking about? I thought those were "fairytales"?
Jim: Uh, in Exodus it says multiple times that God "hardened Pharaoh's heart", so that he wouldn't let the Israelites go.
In other words, God intentionally made it so that Pharaoh would refuse to listen, just so that He could then have an excuse to send all the plagues (including the plague against the firstborn) to demonstrate His almighty power.
How sick is that?
I briefly touched on the subject of the hardening of Pharaoh's heart here, and went into it more deeply here. (The latter post has a bit of reflection on my "theological perspective" on death that Steve Wells has strongly criticized, and a discussion in the comments that is similar to this one.)
Sat Nov 14, 07:55:00 AM 2009 
 C Woods said...
I was 8 when my family started to read a chapter of the Bible before dinner each night. By the time I was 12 I was disgusted and horrified by much of it. By the time I graduated from high school I was an atheist.
A few days ago, I came upon a blog about someone on TV who advocated genocide by suggesting we kill all Muslims. The resulting comments and discussions seemed to run about 50% in favor of doing that. A few people pointed out that those in favor of such genocide were acting no better than extreme Muslims who want to kill all non-Muslims. But no amount of reason can dissuade those who look upon all Muslims as extremists and terrorists or dissuade extremist Muslims from thinking the rest of the world is full of infidels. Many Muslims are nuts (read Ayaan Hirsi Ali's book "Infidel" for lots of examples), but I think a lot of Christians are, too. Yet we don't think most Christians plan to kill abortion doctors. We realize those are just a few zealots ---a few are too many, but still not the average Christian. It seems that many people have lost, or never had, empathy for anyone else, especially if they believe differently. Most of those advocating genocide were Christians ---the Bible taught them well.
Sun Nov 15, 05:25:00 AM 2009 
 Crazyfish08 said...
Dear Steve, I came across your website and read the question put forward about denouncing all genocide and your challenge to Christians to defend it. To answer the question, I would say that all genocide done by men is mass murder, but when God does it it is right. I know that sounds rather absurd, but let me explain why I think so.
God is a being who knows everything and has a strong sense of justice to fufill. Ecclesiastes 12:14 "For God will bring every act to justice, everything which is hidden, whether good or bad". It is good that there is a law which brings forth consequences for evil so that justice is appeased. Humans have a justice complex too. If your friend was kidnapped and murdered it would not be right for the murderer to go off scott free. Stealing is wrong, stuff like that we just know.
"The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life" Every man has sinned and therefore deserves death. God is perfect and all knowing, so only he can administer true justice. This is why it is only ok for God to take away life- only he knows every single circumstance of every single situation and the heart and mind of every person in those circumstances, so only he can and will bring any good/evil deed to true justice.
Considering this, he shows restraint and mercy to any person that sins that he does not kill right away. The Israelites had to make animal sacrifices in order to appease God's anger until the fufiller of the promise was come.
This leads to the another aspect of God which loves every single person he made so much that he sent his perfect son the Christ to die to pay the penalty for the sins of men. Jews were seen clean through faith in the promise and sincere adherence to the law and Christians are seen as clean of sin through the atoning sacrifice of Christ.
But then all this still seems kind of unfair for the people who got punished by death in the OT still doesn't it? Pharaoh wasnt even really given a chance to get saved by looking to the promise and honoring Yahweh, for the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart. This and the slaughter of children and infants really bothered me as well, I thought "could the God of the Bible who is loving and just really have slaughtered those infants and damned them to hell?" And I wavered in faith for a bit until I considered three things and made my own little hypothesis.
1, First point, (which sorry, Ive already stated lol) is that what's really fair is for all men to die by the punishment of God. The least fair thing of all is that Christ died for sin, because he was the only one without sin.
2. Secondly, God used the punishment of those people to bring good- He hardened Pharaohs heart and then obliterated him so that others may know that he was God. Word of God's deliverance for Israel and destruction of Pharaoh got around, and some were saved by this knowledge and clung to Yahweh. For example Rahab the prostitute had heard about what happened at the Red Sea and acknowledged Yahweh as God thereafter. Because of this she helped the spies and escaped death.
3. God is just, loving, and capable of pretty much anything.
Considering this I came up with my alternate dimension hypothesis for how God shows justice, love, and mercy all at the same time. The idea is that for every human soul, there is an alternate dimension with ideal circumstances for that person to love and choose Yahweh in return. So for every aborted baby, for pharoah, and for all who died without the knowledge of God- there is another dimension where things were better. eg. In another dimension Pharoah could have been an Israelite or lived somewhere else, and another person was in the role of Pharoah getting screwed over.
This is just one thing God could have done to show justice and love to every human he created, hes God so we just have to trust in Him to do the good things that he does.
So yeah I'm interested to here what you have to say in response, and what you think about my hypothesis lol
Tue Nov 17, 03:24:00 PM 2009 
 busterggi said...
Crazyfish, I'll be nice this time and just say your god is a psychotic prick as portrayed in his magic book.
I won't class you as a psychotic prick yet.
Wed Nov 18, 06:15:00 AM 2009 
 DallasDeckard said...
I always find it interesting that atheists are willing to get themselves in this jam. They deny the existence of God and then try to claim that God is guilty of genocide. You can't have it both ways, either there is no God or He is guilty of genocide. If there is no God, then genocide simply happens because of the actions of men. God can't be blamed.
However, if God is real and the Bible is true, then atheists must come to terms with that truth. The problem is that atheists continue to make the mistake of equating God with man. They apply the same principles to God as are applied to man, but this is patently absurd. God is the creator of man, the sovereign God, the pure and holy judge of men. He alone has the right to judge men and to apply that judgment (whether it be directly, or through those He appoints to do so).
Consider for a moment two forms of imprisonment. We see one in the news where a man has kidnapped a young woman and held her prisoner for many years in his basement. We see another in the news where a woman is found guilty of robbing 15 banks and sentenced to 20 years in prison. Now, are both of these the same? Is it just that the woman found guilty of robbing the banks be imprisoned? What about the woman that was kidnapped? Is it just that she was imprisoned by this man in his basement for all those years? Of course not.
As I have shown, the rightness of a given action is based upon the circumstances. In one case it is wrong and sick to imprison a woman while in the other it is the just punishment for her crimes. God's actions in the Old Testament were just in taking lives and in ordering the lives taken through priests and prophets. Just as it is foolish to equate the imprisonment of these two women, it is foolish to equate the just actions of God and the genocide committed by the likes of Hitler, Pol Pot, et. al.
Thu Nov 19, 08:18:00 AM 2009 
 DallasDeckard said...
Also, no sane believer in God is justifying all actions of God simply because "God did them". Any intelligent believer can offer reasons why God's judgments on certain peoples lines up perfectly with His character as illustrated in the Bible. We aren't simply sitting around and saying, "God did it, that means it's okie-dokie".
For example, take the judgment of the prophets of Baal (ironically, this is one that espousers of "God's genocide" often miss). The prophets of Baal were leading the people of Israel astray. They were causing some to introduce the worship of Baal. Now, upon that deed alone they all deserved to die, and they deserved to die without a moment's notice. Leading God's people astray separates them from God, leading them to worship false gods, sinning against God. However, God used the occasion to show Himself and some measure of His power and more importantly to turn His people away from the worship of Baal and back to fellowship with Him and to remove forever the sinful element that was leading them astray.
In a contest between the prophets of Baal and Elijah, two altars would be erected and upon each a sacrifice would be placed (a bull). Elijah and the prophets of Baal would pray to their god and ask this god to consume the sacrifice. Whichever god did so would be revealed as the true God. The prophets of Baal started. They danced, they prayed, they called upon their god from morning till noon. Baal didn't answer. Elijah taunted them, "Maybe [Baal] is deep in thought or busy, or traveling". So they cried out louder and cut themselves with knives and spears, letting blood all through the day. Evening came, nothing happened, their time was up. It was Elijah's turn to call upon his God. First though, Elijah built the altar, with wood around the sacrifice and upon which he placed 12 stones, one for each tribe and dug a large, deep trench around the altar. Three times he ordered four large jugs of water poured on the sacrifice. It doused the sacrifice, the wood and filled the trench with water. Elijah stepped forward and prayed a short prayer asking God to answer him so that the people would know He was God. Fire fell from the sky and burnt up the sacrifice, the wood, the stones, the dirt and all the water in the trench. The people then fell on the ground and proclaimed "The Lord - He is God". Then Elijah told the people to seize the prophets of Baal and bring them down to the Kishon Valley where they were slaughtered, every one.
Genocide? No. Just punishment for their sins? Yes. Removal of an evil element that was leading the people of God astray? Yes. Difficult to understand why God did this? No. Incompatible with His pure and holy nature? No. God is the judge of all men, the rightful judge who is the author of life. Being that author, He alone has the right to judge men and mete out justice for their sins. This is a very different situation than Hitler, Stalin or any other sinful man.
Thu Nov 19, 08:18:00 AM 2009 
 Brucker said...
DallasDeckard, I for one think you state the case very well, although I doubt too many others will think so. I have often argued that with higher levels of power and knowledge come higher levels of authority. We acknowledge the authority of a parent over a child, a police officer over an ordinary citizen, a government over an individual, etc. Yet, somehow we can't accept the idea of a higher-order being having an unparalleled authority over humanity in general.
Yes, our non-existent God is guilty of daring to act like He's God or something. How dare He? Who died and left Him in charge?
Thu Nov 19, 10:25:00 AM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
Brucker,
I do not acknowledge the authority of a parent, police officer, or the government to do things that are wrong. It is wrong for a father to kill his son for being disobedient, for a policemen to beat a citizen to death, or for a government to torture a prisoner. But I guess you think these things are OK, if they are done by someone with higher authority. So since God has a really high authority, he can do whatever the hell he wants, and we are supposed to call it good.
The problem with your non-existent God, Brucker, isn't that he acts like he's God or something; it's that he does not act like he's God -- at least not one that anyone (except maybe you and Dallas) would want to worship.
Thu Nov 19, 03:35:00 PM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
Brucker and Dallas,
So you like Elijah's prayer contest, followed by the mass murder of the losers? Yeah, I bet that's one of your favorites.
But do either of you have an absolute favorite killing? If so, why not write a guest post about it? Tell us why you think it is so cool that God killed so many in such a painful way for either a silly reason or for no reason at all.
Thu Nov 19, 03:58:00 PM 2009 
 Brucker said...
I do not acknowledge the authority of a parent, police officer, or the government to do things that are wrong. It is wrong for a father to kill his son for being disobedient, for a policemen to beat a citizen to death, or for a government to torture a prisoner.
Most people would agree with you. However, most people will also agree that a parent has a right to spank a misbehaving child, a police officer has a right to lock up a citizen breaking the law, and a government has a right to put certain convicted criminals to death.
But I guess you think these things are OK, if they are done by someone with higher authority. So since God has a really high authority, he can do whatever the hell he wants, and we are supposed to call it good.
No, since each of the examples is of a higher authority than the previous, their right to punish wrongdoing is of a higher order than the previous. God, being the highest authority, has the highest right to punish, but at the same time, Bible believers have faith that He will do it only when it is right, whether you yourself believe so or not.
Tell us why you think it is so cool that God killed so many in such a painful way for either a silly reason or for no reason at all.
And that's where you miss the point, I think. A Christian may have instances of places in the Bible where the reason is beyond his understanding, but not an instance of a "silly" reason or no reason at all. If we thought that way, we probably wouldn't be Christians.
(Apropos of nothing, or perhaps everything, my word verification is "pityme".)
Thu Nov 19, 04:45:00 PM 2009 
 Brucker said...
But do either of you have an absolute favorite killing? If so, why not write a guest post about it? Tell us why you think it is so cool that God killed so many in such a painful way for either a silly reason or for no reason at all.
I gave it some thought, and decided I do have a favorite genocidal moment in the Bible: the book of Jonah.
God tells Jonah to go and preach to the city of Nineveh that He is planning to destroy the city and (one can probably assume) kill all its inhabitants.
Jonah refuses to go and preach this message. Why? Not because Jonah is against the genocide of the Ninevites, but because, as he says to God, "I knew that thou art a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repentest thee of the evil." And sure enough, when the people of Nineveh seek forgiveness from God, he refuses to kill them.
I say no better genocide than genocide averted, and if you're looking for a "silly" reason, I'd say God did what He did in part to teach a single person (Jonah) about the value of forgiveness.
(BTW, the population of Nineveh was not 120,000. That number is the number of children ("persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand") in the city.)
Fri Nov 20, 10:56:00 AM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
I see Brucker. Your favorite one of God's killings is the one where he decided not to kill anyone at all. Makes sense to me.
It reminds me of my favorite killing in "No Country for Old Men." Did you see the movie? If so, you'll remember the time Anton Chigurh (Javier Bardem) nearly kills the old gas station proprietor, but decides not to when he guesses correctly on a coin toss.
I think Anton Chigurh and the God of the Bible have a lot in common. Which is your favorite, Brucker? (I prefer Anton Chigurh, even with the bad haircut.)
Sat Nov 21, 09:32:00 PM 2009 
 Brucker said...
Woo, spoiler alert, there! As it happens, I've seen that movie, and I rather like (without giving away too many details for those who haven't seen the movie) the killing in which the victim refuses to call the flip. "The coin don't have no say! It's just you!"
The point of my choice is not just the fact that the genocide didn't happen, but that it's possible for God to have mercy, and these things aren't random like a coin toss. Although God has certainly killed a lot more people than Chigurh, He doesn't like to do it, and when He does, it's always for a good reason.
Sun Nov 22, 09:17:00 AM 2009 
 Baconsbud said...
Brucker, so all the verses that talk about how much your god enjoys the smell of blood and burning flesh means nothing?
Sun Nov 22, 02:16:00 PM 2009 
 Brucker said...
They don't mean nothing, but it should be notable that God doesn't literally have a nose and therefore no literal sense of smell. When God says that He likes the smell of something, He is saying that it pleases Him. What He likes about the "smell" of those things (in the case of animal sacrifices) is what they symbolize to Him: repentance.
Sun Nov 22, 05:05:00 PM 2009 
 shaunschon said...
Yeah really?? Well, your god may have no sense of smell, but I certainly do, and he smells like shit.
Wed Feb 17, 02:14:00 AM 2010 
 Brucker said...
Wow, most people can't even see God, but you can smell Him? That's impressive.
Wed Feb 17, 08:44:00 AM 2010 
 Brucker said...
Eh, Steve; I was purging old e-mails and came across one mentioning this discussion I'd largely forgotten. I'm not interested in restarting this debate because I don't think many come away from reading this stuff with deep insights, but I do want to reiterate my point and hopefully clarify.
I've often said, and not facetiously, that the SAB is useful for anyone interested in taking a critical look at the Bible. I think my previous comments came across too harsh when I meant it as constructive criticism!
One of the big turn-offs to religion is the hypocrisy often displayed in delivering the message,but it works both ways. As I chided twillight for calling God a fairy-tale while condemning His actions, it's a "have your cake and eat it too" thing. He's saying "The cake is a lie...and it's fattening!" Christians arguably have a bundle of hypocrisy to deal with in regards to this issue, but you have an advantage: You don't need to bend over backwards to avoid hypocrisy and keep your theological position! There is no reason you can't condemn ALL instances of cruelty and violence in the Bible. Judges 19 is a great example: condoned by God or not, it's horrible, bizarre violence, so you mark it! But I think my examples are also valid: isn't mass killing of Jewish children as evil as the latter mass killing of Egyptian children? What other than bias makes it less noteworthy?
I could argue this all day in general, but let me point out specifics from Acts 7 that are not only examples of bias, but frankly, huge points for your argument you are missing out on by leaving less than fully condemned. Stephen accuses the Jewish leaders--and by extension the Jewish people as a whole--of being religious hypocrites with a long history of violence. You criticize Stephen for harsh language and intolerance and fair enough, but what is he being intolerant towards but the very same things you are? If you ever wanted to have your cake and eat it too, here's your chance: You can accuse Stephen of using harsh words and being intolerant while at the same time pointing out that he is nonetheless right! Not only do you fail to comment that the Jews' own history bears out Stephen's accusation, but the story puts frosting on the cake in the immediate violence of dragging him out and stoning him to death! Why would you suddenly stop commenting on Hebrew violence when that was your bread and butter all through the Old Testament? Think about it: the Jews are God's people, and the Christians are God's people too, so when they clash, one starts hurling insults, the other starts hurling rocks, (both parties believing themselves to be in the will of God in doing so!) and the only person left with moral high ground to stand on is Steve Wells.
What is the message in your silence but Saul/Paul's words in Acts 22:20, "And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death..." That's not your message, is it? Nor is it really "I try to mark things that would be useful to a nonbeliever who is trying to decide whether or not to believe in the Bible. I don't see how the gouging out of Samson's eyes or the other things that you mentioned would help in that regard. So I didn't mark them." You wouldn't accept that from me, would you? Or shall we replace my guest post with, "I try to share things that would be useful to a believer who is trying to decide whether or not to believe in the Bible. I don't see how 2Kings 2:23-24 would help in that regard. So I don't talk about it."?
I've been reading your stuff for years and you're capable of better.
Mon Nov 12, 08:18:00 PM 2012 
 Steve Wells said...
Welcome back, Brucker. And thanks for your interest in making the SAB more fair and balanced.
I've already explained why I don't highlight all the random acts of violence that are included in Bible. I only mark those that are performed, inspired, or approved by the God of the Bible. God didn't approve of Samson's blinding, Stephen's stoning, or the beheading of John the Baptist. I don't approve of them either. Neither of us had anything to do with them, so why should I highlight them in the SAB?
Of course, I know why you'd like me to include them. It would make your murderous god look a bit better by comparison. See, he's no worse than the Philistines, the Pharaoh, or King Herod. He was just doing what all Bible characters do.
Except that he's your God, for Christ's sake. And he's proud of every last killing. Why are you so ashamed of them?
If your god wasn't so imaginary, he'd be angry when believers make excuses for him. He kills, he wounds, his arrows are drunk with blood and his sword devours flesh (Dt 32:39-42). Someday you'll be rejoicing while washing your feet in the blood of his victims (Ps 58:10).
So rejoice in God's killings, Brucker. If you can't do it now, you're going to feel silly, when the time comes, with all that blood on your feet.
Tue Nov 13, 12:28:00 PM 2012 
 John B (SiftingReality.com) said...
I had addressed this kind of objection a while back HERE. Essentially, a persons goodness or evilness is irrelevant to whether God can take their lives.
As Creator, he has license to take lives whenever and for whatever reason. Just like if I were to build a robot, I could scrap it at any time. I could even build multiple robots and program one of them to scrap the others. A creator doesn't necessarily need a good reason to do so since he answers to no one but himself.
Tue Nov 13, 04:18:00 PM 2012 
 Stephen said...
@ Sifting Reality:
"As Creator, he has license to take lives whenever and for whatever reason."
He has to exist first. Otherwise it's just people ascribing their sick ideas to an imaginary deity.
Steve Weeks
Tue Nov 13, 05:55:00 PM 2012 
 godhatesyeast said...
Oh. My. GOB.
The stupidity burns hotter than a thousand suns.
Mr. Wells deconstructs the colossal stupidity, ignorance and brutality of the bible by highlighting the atrocities committed by gob in the same way another intelligent being might highlight the colossal stupidity, ignorance and brutality of the Star Wars prequels.
Both are highly influential works of fiction that deserve nothing but contempt and ridicule from anyone with a functioning frontal lobe.
I can't believe you deal with this savage idiocy without losing your mind, Mr. Wells. Keep calm, carry on and enjoy the cash I just paid into your account for your fantastic book.
Tue Nov 13, 10:19:00 PM 2012 
 Brucker said...
"God didn't approve of Samson's blinding, Stephen's stoning, or the beheading of John the Baptist."
Arguably, both Samson and John the Baptist died in order to advance God's purposes, and while I realize explaining such might be a difficult challenge, at the very least you could ask (as John himself did through implication) how God could allow His servants to be treated so cruelly.
But does Stephen's death need to be handed to you on a silver platter like John the Baptist's head? What about Leviticus 24:16? I'm surprised enough that someone as knowledgeable of the Bible as you would forget that, but surely you at least saw Monty Python's Life of Brian, right? Who can forget that scene? The stoning of Stephen is an excellent example of people committing an act of violence because God's Law told them to do so. If that's not worth pointing out to people for your purposes, then I don't know what is. (Injustice? Check. Cruelty and Violence? Check. Contradiction? Check. Intolerance? Check!)
"See, [God]'s no worse than the Philistines, the Pharaoh, or King Herod. He was just doing what all Bible characters do."
Right, because that would be so admirable; your logic is impeccable. That's why when I covered the beginning of Exodus, I argued that God was good because he killed children, and we clearly see from Pharaoh and Herod that child-killing is the mark of a good and effective ruler. (I did argue that, didn't I? Ah, no need to check, it's the obvious answer.)
"Except that he's your God, for Christ's sake. And he's proud of every last killing. Why are you so ashamed of them?"
I'm not ashamed of them, (Confused sometimes? Sure, but not ashamed.) but if it makes you feel better in any way to believe that I am, feel free to do so. It's obvious that we live in a free country where both Bible believers and detractors can say whatever they want about the Bible, and those who believe or detract by extension, with only their own consciences to answer to. I'm guessing we can both agree that certainly seems preferable to the world of the video clip.
The SAB is your site, so do with it as you wish. If you can't or won't believe my thoughts on the matter because you assume ulterior motives on my part, I can't really blame you, but I've said all I wanted to (excepting a parting thought that "godhatesyeast" has a very clever username, IMO), and I'm done here. I'll be unsubscribing to this post, too, (for reasons on grounds of insanity which I wrote about in my blog if you care or not) so I'll just say in parting that I will genuinely miss these discussions with you, and I wish you luck and (although I'm sure you have no interest in it) God's blessings on your continued work.
Wed Nov 14, 10:53:00 AM 2012 
 Steve Wells said...
Well, Brucker, I am sorry to see you go. And although you'll probably not see this, here is my response about the stoning of Stephen.
Does Stephen's death need to be handed to you on a silver platter like John the Baptist's head? What about Leviticus 24:16?
I suppose that if Stephen was stoned to death as described in Acts 6-8, the men throwing stones had Leviticus 24:16 in mind. But the author of Acts did not approve of Stephen's killing. So I don't highlight it at the SAB, except to point out the intolerant nature of Stephen's antisemitic rant.
Wed Nov 14, 11:20:00 AM 2012 
 Shreen said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Sun Nov 18, 09:31:00 PM 2012 
 Susan Reese said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Fri Jan 11, 04:32:00 PM 2013 
 Susan Reese said...
I always find it infuriating when "believers" try to justify things that "happened" when they have absolutely NO basis in fact! For instance, Egyptians didn't mistreat the Hebrews- Hebrews or "Jews" didn't even exist during that period of history, nor is there a shred of evidence to support the idea of institutionalized slavery in Egypt- quite the contrary! African masons built the pyramids- not displaced enslaved "Hebrews" or little green men. Or they justify the occupation of Palestine by the Jews (most of whom are European converts, not true Hebrews) by saying it was 'Given them by God and is their traditional home land.' HOGWASH! The Jews were occupiers in ancient Palestine (Philistine in the Bible) who slaughtered and subjugated the natives then as now. And before anyone pulls the ludicrous "You are an anti Semite!" card, I'd like to point out that I am Jewish (by heritage, NOT by religion)so stuff it before you even say it. The "Jews" were non-existent until a group of people thought of the great idea to make up stories that set them above the rest of humanity and a God that always sided with them- as justification for any thing they wanted to do no matter how corrupt or morally bankrupt it might be. It was a good idea! It worked, even 4 thousand years later we are kowtowing to this made-up deity and invented superior race. Sickening.
Fri Jan 11, 04:32:00 PM 2013 
 David Land said...
I'm not sure how people can see how beautifully God made this world in Gen 1 and 2 (without killings of humans or animals) and still attribute anything after sin to God's doing. Satan had a choice, Adam and Eve had a choice to trust God and His word or to decide that they know best and can be "as God". God wants only good for all of us...so look how He created this world and look what the result of sin is in the world today and the Bible.
Most of the so called killings listed in these posts are due to man’s reluctance to rely on faith in God. Noah preached for 120 years before the flood and you still want to attribute this as a killing of God? God told them what was going to happen; you just have to believe what he said. I don't have the time to list every example here, look at the principles in why most of these deaths happened.
One more thing... If we all came from evolution (which takes much more faith than does faith in the Bible), why would any of us care about other human or animal life? Or, for that matter even lying... We all view these as bad. But, if it is just survival of the fittest, why not lie to get ahead, why not kill anyone in our way? It makes absolutely no sense to say there is not a God and to also say that you should not lie, steal, kill, etc. If we were not created by God with morality, we would not be having this conversation! Thank you all for proving there is a God, now just do some Bible research (with prayer) to find that God is a God of love.

Mon Feb 04, 07:26:00 AM 2013 
 A.Gee said...
Steve, I appreciate your perspective, and have taken your challenge. I posted it here: http://ageewriter.blogspot.com/2013/02/a-challenge-to-christians-accepted.html
on my blog. Though some of the comments posted have expressed similar sentiment, I feel this is worth your reading and I am interested in your reaction. I feel most of the difficulties could be cleared up if all parties were quicker to try and understand than to accuse. I ask you to read my comments with such an attitude, and I will try to do the same for you. Thank you for your time, respectfully, Austen Gee
Tue Feb 12, 10:53:00 PM 2013 
 Steve Wells said...
Thanks, Gee, for your comment. But I don't see it addresses the challenge. Do you acknowledge that genocide is wrong even if God commands it? And if not, choose one and defend it. I'm looking for a specific justification of one of God's 135+ killings. Of course, after justifying one, you'll need to justify them all. But that's OK. We've got time. Start with one and we'll go from there.
Wed Feb 13, 09:50:00 AM 2013 
 Paul Thomas Janabet III said...
I am Paul Janabet the third, I was born on November the thirteenth.
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Firstly the Creator is Sovereign.
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His frame work created death & life.
A true Father Creator Lord would be beyond our reproach. Equality is not possible.
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For the clincher I adore the destructive power of such a mighty Sovereign. I admire His dealings with even infants, children and all flesh. This also puts those who worship rebel angels (Satanist etc etc) on a back burner they worship a weak destroyer while the truth is that yes our Father is capable of vast arrangement of untold destruction and terror.
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I completely agree with all of my Father's will. It is a real shame that we have even been allotted to come this far in time to trample His divine glory this much with our insidiousness! Human kind is a ravage beast, a wild dog with mange deserving of death by all and any means.
Not one man, woman, boy, girl or infant is without sin. We are all inherently cursed unto death. This is our lot we have chosen.
-
What's more cumbersome to understand is His grace, such a mighty power should not have to endure us. I cannot understand why He loves me the chief of sinners. I cannot grasp how He can overlook my DISGUSTING self! I cannot find any reason of my own merit to with which I am offered this amazing grace.
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I fully understand and agree with the complete eradication of all created things. I completely agree with genocide, infanticide, humanoerodocationisim- but only when done with the Sovereign's will else I am by His will bound against harming anyone. What I don't agree with or understand is a Sovereign who allows us to continue.
-
I would now address Christ, but alas you understand that I imagine. I find it rather strange this question only shows His glory and might. What a wondrous powerful Majesty! I would not want to serve a Lord who had no power, was not capable of mass destruction. I need this- I was created to serve a Supreme Sovereign Lord Almighty. A God with no equals, no one questions His divine supremacy. A God who can utterly annihilate His enemies.
-
Before I close two things.
God is Love, but God is also just.
His justness (not ours) requires that any one created thing that disobeys be utterly destroyed. That is Sovereignty in and of it self. However, through love and mercy we are allowed to exist and through Redemption can become free of sin thus free of the yolk of death through our forefathers and mothers original sin. It is this only act of undue kindness that we have any chance at life, everyone will die every child is born to die. This is the heritage of humanity, why do you pretend you are immortal and that not all are not to die at some point. In the end God does indeed kill each and every one of us, perhaps by His hand or perhaps by the curse of death put upon us from whence our forefathers came out of Eden. There is no genocide every man will die, therefore the distinction between when and how has no grounds for a man who is already dying.
-
-Paul.


Fri Feb 15, 06:53:00 AM 2013 
 Okeoghene Ifere said...
Paul Thomas Janabet. I just want to say "WTF". I'm a christian and while I appreciate God's awesomeness, I don't like the idea of destruction of every living thing to prove power. This is why I'm grateful we live in a time of grace.
Steve Wells. I like the way you handle your arguments even though I do think you take some things out of context but then again so do some Christians so I can't blame you. Even, I read can read a verse of the bible and suddenly realize something new. Concerning the question, I can't approve of genocide. Even when I accept God probably has his reasons which are beyond my understanding, I find it distasteful. This is probably why nowadays, I mainly read the New Testament.
Also, on SAB you mentioned something about the laws of the Old Testament and Christians. See the thing is, Christians are not bound by the laws of the Old Testament but by the teachings of Jesus who is the author and finisher of our faith. Yes, the bible says that the word of the God will bot go unfulfilled but that's what Jesus came to do. He fulfilled the law thereby freeing us from its bondage. Using legal terms, the laws of the testament are like a contract between man and God. Jesus fulfilled that contract and with his death and resurrection gave us a new contract with God hence the New Testament. I know Christians who still quote from the Old Testament laws when trying to justify some point they are trying to make but except they intend to really start practicing the laws of the Old Testament, there's really no point to it.
There some teachings of Jesus, you misrepresented in SAB. If you could give me a chance later to explain them to you better, you'll probably find yourself placing them under good stuff in the bible.
Fri Feb 15, 04:00:00 PM 2013 
 whidbeydc said...
Okeo. You say you don't agree with Genoside ( a good thing IMO), so only read the new testiment. But why even read that? You are picking out thinkgs you like and ignoring things you don't thereby making being a Cristain palatable for you. We can all have a good life, with morals and happiness without being scared about some hell out there. Don't be a hypocrite. I saw gays complain about the way the church they went to treated them. Why would they even want to be Christain? That would be like blacks wanting to join the KKK. Another Christain based group by the way.
Mon Feb 18, 03:37:00 AM 2013 
 G Frud said...
You speak of holocausts.
The word is misused by you.
There is only one Creator.
If you don't like what He has done, you won't like what he plans to do.
He is not here to please you, but to accomplish His Will.
Mon Mar 11, 02:42:00 PM 2013 
 e4eaf1f8-9292-11e2-a8d8-000bcdcb8a73 said...
Two points.
One, I believe in an immortal God that is waiting for his kids to get home from school. He wants us all to get a good education, but if some or even a lot of us go home early--it’s not a tragedy to God. If you’re a being that’s been around for millions of years, one year or even a hundred is insignificant--to a god, a baby dying shortly after birth isn’t that much different than an octogenarian dying in his sleep. So yes, God has a different standard of ethics than we do. Because while death isn’t a big deal to God, it sure is a huge deal to us. So when we kill each other it’s called murder and when God kills us it’s called dying.
Imagine you’re a god waiting for your kids to come home from living, and some of your kids are actively preventing your other kids from following your directions and keeping the rules that you made to make everyone happy-- it’s not a big deal to pull the bad kids off of earth for some home school so they can stop distracting everyone else. (Apologies for bad analogy...it’s the best I could come up with)

Two, the bible is a pretty flawed document even setting aside whether you believe in the supernatural or not. I’m not going to lie for God and say that he didn’t command the Israelites to kill all of the Canaanites. I don’t know. But everyone needs to understand that the bible isn’t perfect even if you believe in it enough to teach it to your own children. It was preserved as an oral tradition for *hundreds* of years before being transcribed, and then recopied over the course of a thousand years by a thousand different hands. It was translated from Hebrew to Aramaic to Greek to Latin to English and for the most part each of those translations was based off of the previous foreign language translation (probably because the original Hebrew just didn’t exist. The oldest fragmentary record we have is from the second century CE).
Apart from how foolish it is to overanalyze the precise wording of a translation of a translation, the bible is also a product of ancient mesopotamian culture. Like Thomas Jefferson being a really awesome thinker whose work has perhaps been more influential in giving people a voice in their own government and defending their own rights than anyone else---he was also a despicable owner of human beings. One’s culture doesn’t excuse bad behavior, but it does put it context. The bible contains many things that are divine. But the whole dang thing comes to us filtered through ancient mesopotamian culture.
Ancient mesopotamian culture was extremely violent. Most religions in the fertile crescent made child sacrifice--people were routinely pummeled with stones until they died or thrust over ravines for breaking social norms, and it wasn’t uncommon to sell your debtors into slavery to raise capital. And yes, completely wiping out your opponent wasn’t invented by the Hebrews. I find it completely plausible that God gave the Hebrews a commandment that they fulfilled in a way that was culturally appropriate for them but horrifying to us. Kind of like it was culturally appropriate to have a favorite kid, marry a set of sisters then marry their maids, and “fall on the neck” of your estranged brother when you made amends (that’s all Jacob for anyone that isn’t familiar with the Old Testament), but I don’t think God would necessarily encourage any of those things. It’s not contradictory to say that the Israelites were led by God while also saying that all of their actions were influenced by the time and place in which they lived their lives.
And yes, I can say that genocide is a horrifying tragedy at any time. I still teach sunday school. Life’s complicated. Religion is messy.

Thu Mar 21, 06:50:00 PM 2013 
 Bubzakhan said...
The death of every first born in Egypt before the Exodus of Israel was one thing, but what about the mass killing of Israelite babies decades before?!
If you look at the Bible in a preconceived notion of course you would come to such conclusions, because you would only see what you WANT to see.
With that shortsighted view will obstruct the view of a loving God revealed to us in the person of Jesus Christ. A God who gave everything to be one with mankind again.
And what do we do? We swipe away the olive branch He handed us from on high all while we are waste-deep in death!
I don't aim to convert any of you with this comment but to let you know that I will be praying for each one of you.
I do not justify genocide but I know that God owes NONE of you any answers if He is the creator of all created things!
As creator He makes the rules and we are accountable to Him as none of us can escape Him.
John 3:16
Fri Mar 22, 08:07:00 AM 2013 
 Bill Huninghake said...
God’s Just Destruction of the Canaanites
Many will not like the truth but if you are looking for truth then go to :
https://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=12&article=1630
Thu Mar 28, 11:10:00 PM 2013 
 the thinker said...
if Brucker thinks that it's fair for him to compare his god with humans, up to him. We all know humans are cruel, cruel, people, especially in the past, before the human rights movement, but the bible specifically says that god is infallible, perfectly good, and the source of all our morals. That is exactly why it's pointless to mention the killings by man, but bring up the killings by god.
In your vigor to defend god, you have done the exact opposite: say that god is as fallible as man, and therefore should be judged together with him.
Tue Apr 02, 04:07:00 PM 2013 
 Christopher Lee said...
Steve,
If this challenge is still going on, then, we can engage together. Let me know.
What is the format? and the rules for this debate?
Chris Lee
Thu Apr 04, 09:29:00 PM 2013 
 A.Gee said...
Hey, Steve, hope all is well. I am still waiting for the response to your response on my blog.
Have a great day,
Austen Gee
Thu Apr 04, 11:01:00 PM 2013 
 Steve Wells said...
Here's my response on your blog:
It's really pretty simple, A.Gee. Start with the assumption that the God of the Bible exists and that the events described in the Bible occurred exactly as written. That is your position, isn't it, A.Gee? If so, it shouldn't be too hard for you to do.
So you don't have to prove that God exists or that the Bible is true. We will start with these assumptions. Select a killing and tell us why you think it was a good thing for God to do.
What could be simpler, SimplyGee?
Sun Apr 07, 01:53:00 PM 2013 
 Steve Wells said...
Christopher Lee,
Yes, the challenge is still going on. But so far there's only been one taker - Brucker's Bad News Bears back in 2009.
As for rules, well, there's only one: select your favorite killing and tell us why you like it so much. Then, if you like, select the next one and do the same, until you work your way through the 135+ killings in the Bible. Sounds like fun, eh?
Sun Apr 07, 02:45:00 PM 2013 
 Bill Forward said...
Brucker said...
From BBrucker's post
>>>Steve Wells: "I created the SAB for nonbelievers, Brucker. So I don't much care what believers find significant."
Yes, but you're showing your bias is no better than the Bible-believer's. It's hard to be taken seriously calling Christians and Jews hypocrites when you're participating in exactly the same sort of hypocrisy. More below...<<<
Mr. Brucker, you haven't really changed. Oh sure, you've come to the point where you've finally admitted that Stephen makes some historic error or two in his Acts quote, but you'll still twist logic to all sorts of weird angles to avoid admitting that the Bible simply sucks as a life and reality guide.
Stop playing politics and face up to the truth. The Bible not only has Numero Uno ordering the mass-murder of most of the Midianites, he also orders the RAPE of the surviving little virgins. And all to fix a problem that HE CAUSED by his slaughter of his own chosen people (okay, only many out of one tribe) due to a strange over-reaction to a very limited violent event.
The real question, for you and the other politicians on this discussion, is not whether or not we can judge N.U.; not whether or not enemies attacked the supposed "good guys" in the story, but whether or not it makes much more sense to say that the Israelites wrote their own self-serving quasi-history, rather than it being some grand revelation from heaven.
(But at least you're a lot less scary than some of the deity-defenders here.)
-- Bill Forward "ForwardMan!"
Sat Apr 13, 03:15:00 PM 2013 
 100 dollar trade for what? said...
This has to be the dumbest challenge I've seen from an atheist. The answer is simple: "If you judge God by YOUR standards then you are calling yourself "god". But since these people were obeying G-d, then they were being obedient servants of the Lord G-d". This simple concept has totally escaped you- don't worry though, it'll be explained to you after you've died.
Wed Apr 17, 11:41:00 PM 2013 
 Larry Langley said...
One need only casually read the Old Testament and then the New Testament to discern that somehow the vengeful, sadistic god of the OT is not the same as the one Jesus portrayed in the NT. Why is that? Could there be two gods--one evil and one good-- as the Gnostics taught/teach? To Christians: All this wrangling, fighting,animosity and sarcasm makes me sick. Why don't you all give it a rest? If "no man comes to the Father except the spirit draw him" (John 6:44. No amount of arguing or name-calling or challenges will lead a person to repent of their sins.
Someone may ask: Are you a Christian? Yes, a bible thumping, evangelical, born again Christian who happens to not believe that everything in the bible is Holy Spirit inspired. I can point to the date, the time and the place where I "accepted Jesus as my savior and asked him into my heart" to use the language of other bible thumpers.
Sat Apr 20, 03:31:00 PM 2013 
 Unknown said...
I have to agree with A. Gee (sounds funny) on the subject that at first there are basic questions to be decided on before further discussion gets usefull.
The basic one is : does god exist?
As far as I know this has never been proven so that seems to immediately end the discussion.
I'm convinced there is no god but I am open to any proof that I'm wrong here.
It seems strange that a supposed god would communicate with us for over 2.000 years ago with quite unedicated people while there were at that time far better developped people elsewhere in the world.
Furthermore there has been plenty of time for an update but I'am afraid we will have to wait some more for this to happen.

Sun Apr 28, 07:50:00 AM 2013 
 m1taylo said...
God gives all life. Therefore He is the only one with a right to take it. The fact that all people die proves this. Interesting how you are so quick to credit God with taking life, while ignoring the deaths you don't attribute to Him. Who is responsible for those? Satan? Man? If so, I'm sure their numbers are far higher. Compared to man or Satan, God surely would appear to be the least offensive in terms of numbers of lives taken. Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
I take it you are an atheist and your purpose is to ridicule those who believe in the Bible. If you actually believed in the God of the Bible, you would do well to take this verse to heart.
Thu May 09, 08:31:00 AM 2013 
 Larry Langley said...
Here's a passage in Isaiah 45:5-7,
I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
No honest, truth-telling Christian of whatever hue, can explain this verse. Many Christians want to believe the Bible literally. If they do there is no way they can explain the plain literal truth of the words contained in this passage.

Thu May 09, 01:06:00 PM 2013 
 Unknown said...
First of all sorry for posting as UNKNOWN.
@ m1taylo : life isn't given by any god or recreated by one, it is passed on as is commonly known.
Living sperm and a living eggcell "melt" together and pass on life.
Those who believe in the bible ridicule themselves, just think for a minute : they follow an old book that has never been updated. Has your god fallen asleep?
Well, to me all this is kinda funny....
Mon May 13, 08:31:00 AM 2013 
 HP said...
I honestly don't know what I find more scary: the biblical verses Steven highlights, which so many people unquestioningly believe to be the absolute word of God, or the many, increasingly dubious attempts of believers to try and justify them...
Once again, I'm finding my faith in human nature severely challenged. Where is the logic?! Perhaps more importantly, where is the love you keep claiming your deity is the eternal embodiment of?!?!
Having read the Bible and had various discussions with believers over the years, the only way I've been able to explain to myself how people can believe it is to resign myself to the view that, at best, my understanding of notions such as "all-loving" and "justice" must differ substantially from believers'. At worst, I find their notions of these things disturbingly warped.
There are plenty of humans (although sadly not enough) who would advocate rational peaceful dialogue over genocide when dealing with conflict between communities. Why is this not an option the God of the Bible ever considers (especially when the Bible makes it clear that he has the power to harden, and therefore, presumably also soften people's hearts)?! I thought he was supposed to be the source of love and morality: wise, just and forgiving (or so his believers claim). Leaving aside the fact that the Biblical account of his deeds repeatedly and blatantly contradicts such claims, how anyone can defend these deeds or the "values" they promote (such as unquestioning obedience, horrific cruelty and arbitrary, disproportionate violence) is something I find deeply disturbing and will never understand.
Come on humanity we can definitely do better than this.
Wed May 15, 07:09:00 PM 2013 
 Robertt said...
I have a 2 part counter-challenge for you:
1. Come with an absolute moral standard for good an evil. Of course it must be guaranteed, proved and sustained by absolute arguments and authority for everyone. Once you have it, you'll be able to come with less absurd definition of crime and "genocide".
2. Prove that you can manage better this world, keeping everyone alive, healthy and happy, maintaining justice without to punish, kill or restrain anyone.
After that you can resume your mindless God and Bible bashing.
Sat Jun 01, 01:23:00 PM 2013 
 Steve Wells said...
Nice try Robertt.
But it's not about me, it's about the Bible. If you don't want to defend the Bible and its cruel god, that's OK with me. I understand.
You are embarrassed by the genocides that God commands in the Bible. You can't defend them, so you ignore them instead.
Sat Jun 01, 03:31:00 PM 2013 
 Turmarion said...
I realize this was posted awhile back, and I just happened to run across it today, but I thought heck, I'll bite. I am a Catholic Christian, btw.
Can you acknowledge that genocide is wrong even if God commands it?
Yes, but I don't think He does or ever has commanded it. I agree with Socrates' argument in the Euthyphro that the good is not good because God loves it, but that God loves it because it's good.
Can you agree that genocide is never acceptable including the genocides of the Bible?
Absolutely. As Don Henley said in the song "If Dirt Were Dollars", "Evil is evil in anybody's name."
Are you capable as a Christian of condemning genocide without equivocation?
Genocide is always and everywhere wrong, no matter who commands it. Period.
Now, I tend towards the Marcionite end of the spectrum. While (unlike Marcion) I don't reject the Old Testament tout court, I think large parts of it are mythology, ex post facto rationalizations, and all kids of wacky stuff that tells us nothing about God as such. If God is, as I believe, a God of love, the He doesn't go around commanding genocide, siccing bears on kids, and so on. It is to the shame and discredit of the Church and of individual Christians that they have so much defended the indefensible.
Wed Jun 05, 04:43:00 PM 2013 
 Steve Wells said...
Thanks Tumarion.
I suspect that your view is shared by many, if not most, Catholics. I know that that's how I looked at it when I was still a member of the Catholic church.
But if the Old Testament god is evil, as Marcion believed, then why did Jesus accept him in the gospels? Of course the gospels might be in error, too. But if so, then what are you left with? An evil Old Testament God and an unreliable New Testament.
Why not just accept whatever good you find in the New (or Old) Testament, along with whatever good you find from anywhere else? Then just muddle along as best you can, doing whatever good you can and believing whatever is reasonable.
Why pretend to believe more than is warranted by the evidence? Why call yourself a Catholic when you no longer believe in Catholic teaching?
Wed Jun 05, 05:33:00 PM 2013 
 Turmarion said...
Steve, if one were a full-bore Gnostic, one would say that the God Jesus accepted was not the same as the Old Testament God, and that it was later errors or apologetics that tried to conflate the two. The God of Jesus, according to this, is the true god,the Alien God, who has nothing to do with this world or the OT God.
As a matter of fact, though, I'm not a Marcionite and do not think the Old Testament God is a different, evil god from that of the New Testament. I'm saying that the ancient Jews believed things about him that if they were right would indeed have made Him evil; but they weren't right. In many places, both explicitly and subtly, Jesus seems to be to repudiate these very beliefs about God.
In any case, I don't see why it's a problem if parts of the Bible (some of the NT and large parts of the OT)are "unreliable". Except for Fundamentalist Biblical literalists, the Christian tradition has never insisted on a literal interpretation of everything. Sure, there were rows over heliocentrism and evolution (and I point out that I think that science and religion are totally reconcilable, and that it's a disgrace how many anti-intellectual Christians want to teach absurd things like Creationism and such). Nowadays, however, most Catholic and mainline Protestant theologians have no trouble with taking parts of the Bible allegorically, mythologically, etc. A full discussion would take far too much space, but at my blog I wrote a long series laying out my views on the Bible, for those who are interested.
I never said I reject all Catholic teaching, and to the extent that I believe that there is truth in all great religions, to some extent, I do accept "whatever good I find from anywhere else". Once more, it would take far too long to go into here, but I think there are reasons for believing that God exists and that He's ultimately benevolent. The Christian teaching on the love of God (if admittedly not well implemented most of the time) seems more attractive to me than the core teachings of the other main faiths; therefore that is what I follow. Once more, a grossly oversimplified explanation, but there it is.
I am, BTW, a universalist, as I don't see it as being congruent with a God of love to damn people to eternal suffering. Thus, I'm not interested in telling atheists, agnostics, or non-Christians about the doom awaiting them. I think we all probably have to undergo some type of purification--Purgatory, if you want to call it that--which will probably be longer for some than for others (I expect a long tenure, alas....); but not that there's a Hell as such.
Why pretend to believe more than is warranted by the evidence?
I don't pretend. I admit I may be wrong (if I were sure, it would be knowledge, not faith), but that's not the same as pretending.
Why call yourself a Catholic when you no longer believe in Catholic teaching?
Understand that this is not intended to come off as belligerent: Why do you care what I believe? If atheism is true but my beliefs make me happy and get me through life while respecting the rights and beliefs of others, then what difference does it make if I'm right or wrong? I don't think it's my duty to convert atheists or convince Presbyterians and Parsees of the wrongness of their ways. As long as your religion doesn't involve drinking poisoned Kool-Aid, trying to oppress or forcibly convert people, doing evil, or being more or less an overt scam such as Scientology, then more power to you, IMO.
Wed Jun 05, 06:55:00 PM 2013 
 Turmarion said...
Hmm--the link in my last comment seems not to have worked. Here it is without the HTML: http://turmarion.wordpress.com/2012/08/07/the-pretty-good-book-index-in-progress/
Wed Jun 05, 06:57:00 PM 2013 
 bob said...
Not everything that is in the Bible is condoned by the Bible, but is necessarily included in order to be able to relate the story. There is no story about life and history that would even be realistic or valid that does not have the good, the bad and the ugly included in it.
The events concerning Noah’s flood and Sodom and Gomorrah, the Canaanites and other events described in the Bible prompt many to accuse God of being a murderer and a hypocrite. But there is a vast difference between the murder of an innocent and the execution of a criminal.
The events relate to a Righteous and Holy Judge executing judgement on criminals for often extreme criminal behaviour and after much warning.
All the infants and children that were killed were spared the inevitable involvement in their parent’s sins and consequent eternal ruin. In this respect God’s judgment was also merciful.
The inherited sin that all children are born with (no one has to teach children to lie and steal; it comes naturally to them) being covered by Christ’s work on the cross, which covers all of human history.
...of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Revelation 13:8
Another point that can be made for the reason for God’s judgement was to prevent more children being born into a society and a life that would end up destroying them.
For example, a God who did not judge Canaanite evil would not be a God of mercy, love and compassion (the Canaanites’ bag of sins/crimes being full, with, among many other things, frequent child sacrifice – idolatry at its worst).
The view of some that the Bible or parts thereof are evil is caused by removing and isolating verses from the surrounding scripture and comparing and criticising them out of their context.
This is done out of either:
(a) Ignorance, in which case the underdeveloped reasoning and logic of a child is being used to try to understand scripture.
(b) It is being done wilfully, which is the same deceitful “editing” technique that is used by the media in order to make a better story and/or to discredit someone.
Sat Jul 20, 02:35:00 PM 2013 
 Brucker said...
ForwardMan? What are you doing here?! Good to see you, and I'm glad I happened across this post again despite having de-subscribed as I said I would. (Perhaps I'll re-subscribe since I'm back on the Internet again.)
Please understand the point I'm trying to make to Wells. It's actually not at all about defending the Bible in this case, which I'd do on my blog if I were. It's about pointing out a case of the same sort of hypocrisy that Christians are accused of (and often rightly!)
I still think the stoning of Stephen is a great example of a passage that could be handled better by the SAB. Aside from the points already made about Stephen's words against the Jewish leaders, the Jewish leaders themselves are violently killing a man because of their belief in the Mosaic Law. Why not point that out?
I readily admit that the Bible has God ordering mass murder and even genocide, and while I don't recall the order of rape, I don't doubt your claim. What I'm wondering is why the SAB wouldn't call violence what it is no matter who the perpetrator is. Wells said that he included commentary on one act of violence because "God didn't seem to mind one little bit." Where in the Bible does it say that God minded Stephen being stoned? I have heard it preached more than once that the death of Stephen was the catalyst for Christianity spreading outside of Judea, so you'd find many Christians who'd agree that it was all part of God's plan. Even with bias I don't understand the omission of such commentary.
Wed Jul 24, 02:56:00 PM 2013 
 Steve Wells said...
I agree with you, Brucker. The stoning of Stephen in Acts 7 was cruel. And if the text claimed (or even clearly implied) that God inspired or approved of it, I would mark it as cruel at the SAB. But it doesn't, or at least I don't see any indication that it does.
I wonder though if Acts 7:60 should be marked good. "Lord, lay not this sin to their charge." It was a nice thought, however misguided it might have been.
Wed Jul 24, 09:50:00 PM 2013 
 marsian said...
Mr.steve wells
What do you expect God to be
http://marsian-thebiblenotebook.blogspot.com/
Tue Jul 30, 10:29:00 PM 2013 
 Robert Lambert said...
Please bear with me, as I try to make my point.
Do you or do you not belief that all these things took place? Are they real or not?
Mon Aug 05, 08:44:00 PM 2013 
 Iconoclast said...
Brucker is so desperate that Steve reveals how his Sky-Daddy is cruel that he throws a red herring in to derail the topic.
Mine answer to Brucker: Atrocities by others against Israelites never justify atrocities by israelites against them.
Tue Sep 17, 10:55:00 AM 2013 
 Iconoclast said...
Brucker is so desperate that his Sky-Daddy is an evil megalomaniacal murderer, a moral monster he tries to throw a red herring in about others' atrocities in order to make an excuse for his Sky-Daddy's atrocities.
Tue Sep 17, 10:57:00 AM 2013 
 Iconoclast said...
Hey Brucker,
Tu quoque "argument" is fallacious. You should know beteer. That non-Israelites committed atrocities never justifies atrocities committed by your Sky-Daddy & the Israelites
Tue Sep 17, 10:59:00 AM 2013 
 Brucker said...
Iconoclast, I don't think it's a red herring at all. First of all, I think I make a valid point when I say that the SAB has many acts of violence (not limited to, but including genocide) that it fails to denounce for no apparent reason. Secondly, even if my argument were complete crap (and you're welcome to think of it as so) a "red herring" is a false clue that leads an investigator away from the main point of his inquiry, which I have not tried to do. I think that the original question/challenge is a very good one, and any thinking theist should have some sort of response to it.
On a practical level, setting Christian apologetics aside, I am far more interested in anything that could lead to the ceasing of violence, and have no desire to give anyone a justification for future violence. However, as an amateur apologist, I am aware that the Bible is full of violence, and have to come to terms with it in my own way and in my own understanding of my "Sky-Daddy".
Tue Sep 17, 06:35:00 PM 2013 
 yoursotruly said...
As a man who has spent much of his 60 years trying to reconcile the tales of the bible, the obscure and ancient views of the world and the multiple contradictions with the world I can see around me and from which I gain my sense of reality, i find this fascinating.
It can't be done, keep trying, I love reading about the Christians, Jews, Mormons and Muslims who struggle with the issues and I have a slightly different view. Before I go there, the reason you can't answer the question about genocide is simple, God never killed anybody, every death recorded in the Bible from Cain to Christ was performed by human hands and conceived in human minds OR was a natural disaster, if there is a universal creator, he didn't have anything to do with the earthquakes, floods and volcanoes, I thought we put those meteorological explanations behind us.
As far as the genocide, that all took place with swords of soldiers hacking off heads or smashing babies against walls, I hardly think the universal creator was involved in that but it is evident that the Jews were intent on proving that their local god, Jehovah, was stronger than the other town's god, Baal. Strangely, their god performed poorly and ultimately was unable to defend his people or abandoned them so their atrocities didn't seem to gain them much except hatred.
My view of the Bible is more Eastern, however, I believe that all theological or religious writings NEED to be as contradictory as possible, they are intended to spark questions, not give answers.
If the Bible scrolls and correspondence were clear, few people would study them or learn from them but contradictions inspire reconciliation which leads to truth, eventually.
Recognize the Bible for what it is, a myth about the origins of earth and the beginnings of Judaism, there are some true facts but they are all told from the perspective of one small tribe and ignore the REAL history of the Mediterranean which was going on all around these isolated bronze age tribes and of which they were entirely oblivious, thinking they were the center of the universe.
The contradictions should tell people that they are NOT meant to
take this literally, just as we know that Lincoln was not honest, just as Job was not righteous. Still, can't we learn from the myth of George Washington chopping down the cherry tree and confessing?
The Old Testament SHOULD teach us that we cannot commit genocide because we hear voices even if we somehow have gained the power to make it possible. Moses was a sociopath, Jehovah is a sociopath's God, Jesus worshiped a loving God and if there is such a creator, I know she loves life and not death because I see that all around me. Life is impossible to stop from beginning, evolving and coming to some fruition, life is the universe's one indisputable love.
I am part of what the universe loves, I feel a conscious presence so I need no magic spells, voices in my head or old and musty scrolls, I'm free of any need to defend the Bible or God for after all, if God can't defend himself, who am I?
If our friends want to try and reconcile their OT Jehovah, good for them, it will strengthen their reasoning ability and when sufficiently strong, they can give up their crutch and realize that it is reality that counts.
I am waiting in anticipation for answers about the afterlife but I'm VERY patient and I know that the only answer may be that my peculiar stream of consciousness ends but if I AM conscious after death, I'll just see where I wind up and take it from there.
Isn't that really what it's all about, scaring people into obedience with God-ordered violence or preacher-ordered hellfire?
Sun Oct 13, 02:55:00 PM 2013 
 Herman De Wet said...
Hi. I am not as educated about all the religions however I do read the Bible and believe what it says as true. I do know that when you do not understand something that you may feel dwindeling.
However I have learnt that God ( Almighty Creator of Heaven and Earth) is so much greater and is on a complete other level of thinking than us. I can not even start to understand His LOVE.
One thing- He is serious about is obedience, as the uncle above stated. But He loved us so much that he allowed anamals to be killed and to shed innocent blood for reconciliation of your sins to keep who ever sinned in good standing with Him. Something He allowed so that we could up untill Jesus Christ Have access to Him. "Cruel"(Yes I would say that).
We can read that other religeons also offered to their gods. However God never gave them permision to offer His creatures to any other god. There is only one Creator. Who can tell the Creator of all things what may and may not be killed for an offering except Himself.
He even wanted to remove man completely off the face of the earth at one stage because of our unwillingness to obey Him.
Imagine yourself creating something in your own immage and giving it free will and then ask it to be obedient, and you put all your effort into this creation of yours to make it just rite. And you get what we have here today... Just people who still do not believe that there is a creator and argue about what is rite in our eyes and not what is rite in God's? Worst of all we do not acnollege His power in everything.
What is rite is to stop arguing about who is who in the zoo, who is rite and who is wrong. See God in his creation, be thankfull because He LOVED us enough to allow us to breath His air, taste His water,experience His calculated days and time, feel His sun rays on our skin.
He is still allowing us all these things daily. Thank Him rather than trying to make HIM out to be anything else than GOOD.
Sun Oct 20, 04:28:00 AM 2013 
 Pestcemetery The Bug Doctor. said...
Hello, Just thought I'd give you a glimmer of hope on this death question. The Bible states.: 1 Corinthians 15:26
The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. (see Hebrews 2:14 as well)
At that time I guess you should be happy at least that there will be no more death.
Your zeal for research is commendable and unfortunately it out paces many christians I know. I did however get a good laugh at some of your oversights in the 700 inconsistency list. (said "some"- I won't blow smoke up your backside saying I know all the answers but a few remarks and conclusions betray your bias if I'm being honest) No worries though. You never claimed to be writing "by inspiration of God" You did claim (sorry I should have marked it- lot to read in here) however that you created this blog for unbelievers and "didn't care what believers said." That indicates to me that your challenge is not an honest one and that's a shame.
Tue Nov 12, 09:17:00 PM 2013 
 mosesgodson said...
I realize I'm fairly late to this function but if I am able to help even one person with some insight/wisdom regarding this subject then it's well worth "showing up" (better late than never???).
Genocide, what is "genocide"? Wikipedia [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide] describes/defines it as "...the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, caste, religious, or national group..."; by that definition/description it seems the focus here has been entirely too narrow. The first and predominant "genocide" against the human race is against the entire human race; if the biblical record is accepted then death is a consequence of disobedience/rebellion against God (sin) and therefore death itself is "...the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole [not in part], of an ethnic, racial, caste, religious, or national group..." (i.e. the human race).
In that light, quibbles about specific micro-instances of destruction seem much less significant; God has ordained/instrumented the destruction of a race but it's the entire race of human beings not merely a subset as we define it (e.g. ethnicity, race, caste, religion, nationality). That being said, God has (throughout history) intervened with divine acts of grace to preserve a subset of the human race for himself; he has done (and continues to do) this solely on the basis of faith in him (which can only be enacted/exercised by his choice to reveal himself to who he chooses to reveal himself to). I suppose it could be said that this makes the case for a general genocide of the human race even stronger since his divine act of grace (in preserving a remnant for himself) further satisfies/aligns with the description/definition of "genocide" given (i.e. "...systematic destruction, in whole or in part..."). This revelation was very exclusive (i.e. to the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob/Israel) before Jesus' work on earth but through Jesus God's revelation is freely available to all who hear/learn of it.
Do I condemn "genocide" of any given "part" of the human race? No, absolutely not!!! I do not "condemn" anything because it is not my position to judge (Matthew 7:1-5, Luke 6:37, James 4:11-12, etc.) and consequently condemn anyone/anything (not by my own standards anyways); God is the judge of all and I absolutely/completely trust him to judge everyone and everything justly (so I need not grasp at the "right" to judge). That being said, I do believe that God condemns any destruction of any individual or group of HIS creatures that has not been "ordained" by him; the debate regarding who (if anyone) received this divine order is worthy of another discussion entirely (but biblically speaking it basically "boils down to" whether or not you believe the biblical account to be accurate).
Wed Dec 04, 10:31:00 AM 2013 
 Cloud Hermit said...
First of all, Steve Wells is my hero and my inspiration.
Now, look!
If you Christ-believers think it is okay to have massive people and children and infants burning in hell fire in painful torture for eternity, (speaking even as of now), and you, the selected superior smart elite chosen ones are entitled to heaven to watch us burn in hell and rejoice and dance about that in heaven for eternity... oh well... "Son! You still have A LOT to learn as a human and about *immaturity*."
Tue Dec 31, 09:07:00 PM 2013 
 Cloud Hermit said...
Again, I think Steve Wells is a hero!
If you are going to believe in a god that allows souls to suffer in an actual hell in torture and pain for eternity, you still have a lot to learn as a human about love. Your Christ knows nothing about love, leaving souls in hell in torture, in hell-fire for eternity. A lot of LGBT and atheists are the best souls I've ever seen. The religion you believe in has a god who made a stupid senseless game of needless cruelty - the fallacy of your religion, and a Jesus who teaches about "love thy neighbor" but forsakes countless souls in hell and hell-fire. And ironically, the game gaining point is to have faith in a god of cruelty and nonsense. Your god needs a life than to need to have his ego validated. Don't tell me such a god is perfect but simply idiotic."
Tue Dec 31, 09:11:00 PM 2013 
 Cloud Hermit said...
If anything, the reason Steve Wells has not replied on this particular thread must be because he is still in total shock of Christians' inane logic and small minds and small hearts after all that time he is trying to communicate to you to wake up to a greater love then your puny-hearted god.
Your God is like a child who created an ant farm and burns tons of them with matches fires with no good logic and no good reason.
Let me tell you, I don't see why you still don't get the idea that your supposedly loving God created a senseless game, because he was imperfect, and caused a lot of pain and torture. Are you so sheltered and pampered that you don't understand a thing about pain? pain, mind you, sir and ma'am? and pain in other people? A god that allows pain for eternity in hell knows *nothing* about love.
If it's not for secular humanism, Taoist philosophies, Buddhism, Hinduism, Baha'i, and Unitarian Universalist churches, I probably have almost killed myself by now because of your stupid god's senselessness and foolishness.
Your God does not mind watching massive people and children burnt in hell... ... well, that's just a small-and-tiny-hearted god I rather -not- bother to worship.
And don't even get me on your God endorsing, approving, supporting, permitting, and instructing people about how to do human slavery correctly in the Bible... (Ephesians - 6:5-8, 1 Peter 2:18-25 New Testament).
In your God's spare immortal eternal time, He should read up on Taoism, Buddhism, Hinduism, UU, and Baha'i. Your God's creation has outdone Him in holiness and unconditional love.
I think God needs to go ask Buddha and Vishnu, Confucius and Lao Tzu, for some sound advices!
Steve Wells, you are a brave man to risk eternal damnation for what's right, like Nobel Prize winner Bertrand Russell in "Why I Am Not A Christian."
Tue Dec 31, 09:27:00 PM 2013 
 Cloud Hermit said...
Speaking on the side of Steve Wells,
Look, we are NOT a Christian nation. Why the heck did you think our forefathers had "separation of church and state"?
Your Christian doctrines and people have crossed the line and spilled over into innocent people's personal lives, as in certain GOP and Tea Party movements.
If a religion starts to take a turn into condemning, discriminating, persecuting, excluding, spilling over into other people's constitutional rights and over into politics, and into people's personal lives with constitutional rights and basic human rights being violated, it is wrong and ought to be stopped.
I never saw religions such as Hinduism, Buddhism, UU, Baha'i, Taoism, cross the line in other countries. Mostly it is the Abrahamic God's doctrines jeopardizes basic human rights.
I never understood why so many educated and seemly smart Christians don't get it.
Tue Dec 31, 09:39:00 PM 2013 
 Cloud Hermit said...
We know of IQ, EQ (emotion quotient), AQ (adversity quotient), and now I am coining SQ and RQ (spiritual and religion quotient).
With the amount of talents and minds in our country, I am shocked of our collective SQ and RQ. We are low in SQ and RQ.
After all, our forefathers told us to have separation of church and state, so our country don't turn into like a Christian nation, jeopardizing basic human rights and personal choices, jeopardizing *free will*. Why the heck did we, our forefathers, fight for independence?
Let's cut to the point.
God decided the single most important decisive factor is -faith-.
We are talking about faith to God, to Christ, to Holy Spirit - one or a combination of the three. And for arguments' sake,
even faith to just one is enough.
We are smart Americans.
I will cut to the chase to talk about this Jew - Jesus.
If God has decided the decisive factor to heaven over hell is *goodness* or *kindness* or *self-sacrifice* - something like that...
I assure you, Christianity will spread all over the globe in less than a month, and will replace all other religions in no time to Asia and Middle East.
Well, for most Christians, we have an underlying deep fear of ending up in hell for not believing in God and Christ. I have that too, for my afterlife.
But I researched extensively of all religions and all philosophies of East and West and Middle.
Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, etc., gave me alternatives for afterlife.
For one. Buddha's requirement is not faith in him, but goodness.
Hinduism requirement is: devotion to virtues.
Taoism decisive factor: devotion to good character.
They have their fallacies, but extremely minuscule compared to Christianity.
In our Christian religious context, we are justified in a lot of things, in the name of saving souls, to preserve our religion, to preserve Christianity: violence, justified, slavery, justified, killings, justified, rape, justified, incest, justified, war, justified, screwing around in politics, justified.
But we missed out some key points.
The Bible written by men - the premise could be wrong.
The Jew was wrong.
The Buddha, Krishna, Taoist Jade Emperor, all offer good eternal afterlives, comparable if not better than heaven.
Why should I pick a Jew over an Indian, or a Chinese? when the Indian and Chinese clicks with my forefathers' hidden ambitions for our country!?


Tue Dec 31, 11:34:00 PM 2013 
 Cloud Hermit said...
Dear Steve Wells,
You are a very intelligent man.
I read your post, and wonder if you miss this important point, because you are not only very intelligent, but also a... good man.
For a Christian, eternal salvation of souls is the single most important thing for all.
We are talking about eternal destination.
To that, to save souls, it is easy for us Christians to justify our acts.
For salvation of souls and to preserve our religion and to win grace from God by spreading it: massacre, justified by example, genocide, justified, rape, justified, incest, justified, killings, justified, breaking all ten commandments, justified, slavery, of course that's just justified. War? obviously justified. messing with politics, of course justified.
To preserve our religion for the sake of souls' eternal destination, any evils preached against by Jesus Christ is justified, After all, we are sinners. hello?
For your eternal destination, I am a sinner, and I am justified by example to break all commandants and Christ teachings to save your damn soul.
Happy new year.
Let me go do some meditation taught by those damn Buddhists to calm my mind.
Wed Jan 01, 12:04:00 AM 2014 
 Brucker said...
Cloud Hermit, you said something I found quite interesting:
The religion you believe in has a god who made a stupid senseless game of needless cruelty - the fallacy of your religion, and a Jesus who teaches about "love thy neighbor" but forsakes countless souls in hell and hell-fire. And ironically, the game gaining point is to have faith in a god of cruelty and nonsense.
You're saying here that it's a "fallacy" to have salvation based on a cruel game played by a cruel God, but it seems to me that that's not a fallacy, but something that makes perfect sense. If God is cruel, then of course he's going to act in a cruel manner. If God is nonsensical, then of course the things he does will be senseless. Now while I don't believe God to be either of those things, I think it goes to show a couple things. First, that God's actions will reflect what an individual considers his character to be (and vice versa) and second, that the real problem you have with the God of the Bible isn't that he doesn't make sense, it's that you just don't like him. I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with that, but you should tell it like it is.
As a Christian, I could of course be wrong about the nature of God, but I really don't think that the basis of truth about God (or anything else) is whether it's the most pleasing option. Saying God isn't real because you don't like how he's described in the Bible is like saying Barack Obama isn't president because you disagree with his policies. By the way, I think that the fact that God's nature is not determined by popularity is one of the best reasons to have a separation of church and state; I don't trust any politician to tell me what God's will is.
Wed Jan 01, 01:57:00 PM 2014 
 Unknown said...
I've had this argument many times with a religious apologist who seems blinded to any kind of logic. He tells me that my morality is relative which means I don't know right from wrong but the bible gives him absolute morality. Then he tells me that genocide used to be OK, but it's not OK today. And technically the Bible stories are not genocide.
His favourite source of justification is http://christianthinktank.com which is actually the work of one man (Glenn Miller - not that one). Can one man be a think tank? (No).
Anyway, if you want bonkers justifications of genocide and the imaginary God's various atrocities, you can find them there, assuming you can penetrate the verbosity.
Thu Feb 06, 11:52:00 PM 2014 
 John Smith said...
Why is genocide wrong from a materialist/atheist standpoint? I guess I just don't see it. If every living thing is just spontaneously generated matter at various levels of evolution, why should genocide be an issue? If a group had evolved enough to kill another different group, is this not survival of the fittest in a way? If one colony or organism destroys another, why should we care unless it directly affects our own survival in some way?
Mon Feb 10, 07:28:00 PM 2014 
 Baconsbud said...
John I am going to try and explain to you why your question is one you put forth more for yourself then for anyone else. I know you would most likely ignore any attempt by me to explain why I don't need a god to tell me genocide is wrong.
You are asking this question more to tell us that without a god a person can't be moral and to reinforce those beliefs within yourself. I find people who ask this question are trying to shift the question to another view so they don't have to really look at their religion more closely. I would suggest you look deep within yourself and your religion and ask yourself why you would even ask why someone could see genocide as anything other then evil.
Tue Feb 11, 02:29:00 AM 2014 
 John Smith said...
"John I am going to try and explain to you why your question is one you put forth more for yourself then for anyone else"
Why else would a question be asked but to get an answer for oneself?
"You are asking this question more to tell us that without a god a person can't be moral and to reinforce those beliefs within yourself"
I made no such claim. I am merely seeking the terms of morality as an atheist would define them. As has been pointed out repeatedly around here, Christianity has a book that defines their terms. One may take issue with those terms or question their validity, however, they are defined and have been defended by apologists.
"I would suggest you look deep within yourself and your religion and ask yourself why you would even ask why someone could see genocide as anything other then evil."
I made no claim as to having a religion. I will restate the question. Why is it "evil" if in the quest for survival some groups have felt their odds of continuing to spread their genes would be improved by eliminating a rival to the limited resources needed to survive? Is it evil if one monkey kills another? Is it evil if one bacteria kills another? How about just one person killing another person, is that evil? What if the person that was killed was genetically inferior?
"I know you would most likely ignore any attempt by me to explain why I don't need a god to tell me genocide is wrong."
No, I would not. I may challenge or disagree, not ignore. But again the question is not why you don't need a god to tell you its wrong. The question is, "Why is it wrong?" I would appreciate if you refrained from mentioning god or the supernatural in your answer .
Tue Feb 11, 01:54:00 PM 2014 
 Vik and Marie said...
Yes, a good question: Why is genocide wrong?
Don't borrow from christian morality, what you pick and choose. God as a total sovereign, who created all from nothing, reserves the right to take the life that He gave in the first place.
We, human beings, don't have that right, only when directed by Him, as in case of capital punishment, in proper civil office.
There is no internal contradiction in the Christian thought. Either you accept it all, or none.
Seems like you can't account for good and evil, because there is no standard beyond yourself, to which you can appeal to.
Why is anything wrong?
Wed Feb 26, 03:39:00 PM 2014 
 Sacha Weis said...
This isn't really on topic, but one of the comments makes me want to share.
If, as Larry Langley stated, "no man comes to the Father except the spirit draw him" John 6:44, then why does this 'spirit' choose to leave some out, or in biblical terms "harden their hearts"? I have never believed. I spent a couple of years in church trying to believe, but the words of the preacher made no sense.
Yes, as humans it would be painful to kill our children, but as a God, portraying your own child and enduring a millisecond of humiliation and pain can not be a sacrifice in the least.
So, here I am, a flawed human, of this I do not debate, but am I worthy of hell because I don't have the ability to have faith in an unseen, unfelt God who supposedly performed a pointless act of essentially killing himself?
I used to say that when all the Christians rise around me in the rapture I will believe and repent. However, after educating myself on the God of the Bible, if indeed he did exist, I would NEVER bow before such an evil entity.
Sun Mar 30, 12:45:00 PM 2014 
 Sacha Weis said...
And one more thing…
When someone, such as Vik and Marie, posts that it is only okay to take a life when it is directed by God, how do they differentiate between what is dictated by God and what is not? If a fundamentalist Xian runs out and kills an abortion doctor and says God told him to do it, is that not directed by God?
How can you, Vik and Marie, say that capital punishment is condoned by God when Jesus himself supposedly said, "let he who is without sin cast the first stone." Who does this leave to do the execution since none are sinless according to the biblical God.
I find it funny that Christians use the Old Testament to justify being homophobic and yet when you call them on some of the other commands of God in Leviticus they say that those things don't count because Jesus came and so the law is no more. Why is it still an abomination to lay with another man, and yet eating shellfish or cutting your hair is perfectly acceptable?
Sun Mar 30, 12:53:00 PM 2014 
 Errol Smythe said...
... There are no contradictions in The Holy Bible. For example, where some would suggest that there is a contradiction in Genesis Chapter One and Genesis Chapter Two, careful researchers will adopt an unbiased approach to study the alleged anomaly and on careful perusal of The two Chapters in question will arrive at the conclusion , That The Holy Bible was written that way to Bless the unbeliever and to make the unbeliever stumble and fall and be confused and ensnared by strong delusion...
Now some may protest the above statement but in one's search for truth, it is evident that there are many riddles in life and that is why some people just get fascinated with cross word puzzles and breaking codes and solving jigsaw puzzles...
In a cross word puzzle, it is important to have the correct words in the right place to solve the puzzle with 100% accuracy...
In a breaking a code , one has to be a code breaker or be one that is properly trained to break codes...
In solving jig saw puzzles, it is important to have an eye for detail...
When we look at Genesis Chapters One and Genesis Chapters Two we see that Genesis Chapter One
records events that happened from the beginning of time as we know it...
We see also that Genesis Chapter One verse One begins by stating :
".. In the beginning GOD created the heaven and the earth...". [ #Genesis 1:1 ].
The rest of Genesis Chapter 1:1 gives a brief and concise Biblical History of what happened in The First Six Days that planet earth was being prepared and fine tuned for the creation of so called simple and complex life forms..[ See. Earth was Fine Tuned to Exact and Precise Specific Optimum Conditions to support & sustain Life .. scribd.com/doc/164492240/…. ].
Genesis Chapter Two verse begins with the Seventh Day in verse one.
The rest of Genesis Chapter Two gives greater detail of The Sixth Day and The Fifth Day and then concludes with the sixth day by letting us know that on the Sixth Day, GOD created Eve by putting Adam into a deep sleep and taking one of Adam's ribs and making Eve...
Eve was bone of Adam's bone and flesh of Adam's flesh...
Adam being put to sleep reminds us that The Second Man Adam Yeshua Ha-Mashiach The Lord Jesus Christ died on The Cross [ laid down His Life ] for The Second Eve [ The Bride of Christ...The Church...The Elect...The Called Out Ones .. The Ecclesia ]....
Errol Smythe ... Twitter Account @AtThyWord777
#Genesis 1
#Genesis 2
...
Fri Apr 04, 02:01:00 AM 2014 
 Cloud Hermit said...
Christianity is really more fear-based than faith-based.
99.99 % of Christians are fools thinking that God or JC are all- loving when God and JC condone billions of people burning in hell in real pain for eternity as we are speaking at this moment.
I know more about love than God or JC.
Christians are idiots, cowards, with no moral courage or a mind.
Sat Apr 19, 06:25:00 AM 2014 
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Dwindling In Unbelief



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 11 November 2012The Hanukkah killings
A year after God's slaughter of Georga's army, Lysias attacked Judas with army of 60,000.
The year following Lysias gathered together threescore thousand chosen men, and five thousand horsemen. 1 Machabees 4:28
Judas asked God to deliver the Syrians like he did the mighty and the strangers to David and Jonathan.
Judas met them with ten thousand men ... and he prayed, and said: Blessed art thou, O Saviour of Israel, who didst break the violence of the mighty by the hand of thy servant David, and didst deliver up the camp of the strangers into the hands of Jonathan the son of Saul and of his armourbearer. 4:29-30
He asked God to scare the hell out of them.
Strike them with fear ... and let them quake at their own destruction. 4:32
And kill them with the sword of those that love him.
Cast them down with the sword of them that love thee: and let all that know thy name, praise thee with hymns. 4:33
And it worked.

God helped Judas kill another 5000.
And there fell of the army of Lysias five thousand men. 4:34
After God "discomfited" the Gentiles, Judas and his brethren went to clean up the Temple.
Then Judas, and his brethren said: Behold our enemies are discomfited: let us go up now to cleanse the holy places and to repair them. 4:36
They found the Temple to be a bit of a mess.
And they saw the sanctuary desolate, and the altar profaned, and the gates burnt, and shrubs growing up in the courts as in a forest, or on the mountains, and the chambers joining to the temple thrown down. 4:38
So they did the usual things that Jews do when they get upset: they rent their garments, put ashes on their heads, and  fell on their faces.
They rent their garments ... and put ashes on their heads ...And they fell ... on their faces. 4:39-40
Then they cleaned things up at the Temple and killed some animals for God.
They made new holy vessels, and brought in the candlestick, and the altar of incense, and the table into the temple. And they put incense upon the altar, and lighted up the lamps ... And they offered sacrifice. 4:49-53
And everyone fell on their faces once again. (You just can't do that too many times.)
And all the people fell upon their faces . 4:55
When the Gentiles found out that the Jews had cleaned up the temple, they were exceedingly angry.
Now it came to pass, when the nations round about heard that the altar and the sanctuary were built up as before, that they were exceeding angry. 1 Machabees 5:1
And began to persecute and kill the Jews.
And they thought to destroy the generation of Jacob that were among them, and they began to kill some of the people, and to persecute them. 5:2
Which got Judas (and God) in a killing mood once again.
He slaughtered the children of Esau.
Judas fought against the children of Esau in Idumea, and them that were in Acrabathane ... and he made a great slaughter of them. 5:3
Burned to death the children of Bean.
He remembered the malice of the children of Bean ... And they were shut up by him in towers, and he ... burnt their towers with fire, and all that were in them. 5:4-5
And smote the children of Ammon.
Then he passed over to the children of Ammon ... and they were discomfited in their sight, and he smote them. 5:6-7
God helped Judas kill the Gentiles because God likes the Jewish people more than other people, likes the Jewish religion more than other religions, and likes Jews to kill sacrifice animals to him in the Temple.
Judas, and his brethren, and all the church of Israel decreed, that the day of the dedication of the altar should be kept in its season from year to year for eight days, from the five and twentieth day of the month of Casleu. 1 Machabees 4:59
That is what Hanukkah is all about, Charlie Brown.





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So how many did God and Judas kill?
Well, there were 5000 soldiers in Lysias' army, maybe 10,000 or so from the "great slaughter" of the children of Esau, 1000 burned children of Bean, and another 1000 of the children of Ammon -- for a grand total of 17,000 Hanukkah victims.

Posted by Steve Wells at 11/11/2012 07:43:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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4 comments:
 Hausdorff said...
it is really amazing that people call him a God of peace and love
Mon Nov 12, 08:52:00 AM 2012 
 yminoh said...
Baruch Hashem!
Sun Nov 25, 08:06:00 AM 2012 
 Steve Wells said...
Blessed be God (Baruch Hashem) for killing so many people? Is that the idea, yminoh?
Sun Nov 25, 10:15:00 AM 2012 
 yminoh said...
Baruch Hashem...for the rededication of the Temple.
-Killing so many ppl...sux!
Sun Nov 25, 12:09:00 PM 2012 
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 09 November 2012Words of Mormon - whispered by the Spirit of the Lord to Mormon Jr.
"Words of Mormon" is a single-chapter, 18-verse "book" in the Book of Mormon. It was engraved on golden plates by a Mormon prophet named Mormon (whose father was also named Mormon) about 385 CE. Mormon Jr. entrusted the golden plates to his son Moroni, who buried them on a hill in what is now Wayne County, New York. 1400 years later, after being resurrected as an angel, Moroni delivered the golden plates to Joseph Smith.
And now I, Mormon, being about to deliver up the record which I have been making into the hands of my son Moroni ... many hundred years after the coming of Christ. Words of Mormon 1
Mormon found and abridged the plates of Nephi, which were written over a period of about 1000 years. He wrote down less than one percent of all the stuff that was written, for which we should all be grateful. What he wrote he thinks is choice; he wrote it while the Spirit of the Lord whispered to him. And he knows it will be preserved because it's such great stuff.
I speak somewhat concerning that which I have written; for after I had made an abridgment from the plates of Nephi ... I found these plates. v.3
I cannot write the hundredth part of the things of my people. v.5
Behold, I shall take these plates ... for they are choice unto me; and I know they will be choice unto my brethren. v.6
I do this for a wise purpose; for thus it whispereth me, according to the workings of the Spirit of the Lord which is in me. v.7
I know that they will be preserved; for there are great things written upon them. v.11
Mormon prays that the Nephites will once again become a delightsome people.
My prayer to God is concerning my brethren ... that they may once again be a delightsome people. v.9
And I guess his prayer was answered since God helped the white and delightsome Nephites kill "many thousands" of evil, dark-skinned Lamanites.
In the strength of the Lord ... they had slain many thousands of the Lamanites ... until they had driven them out of all the lands of their inheritance. v.14
But not all the Nephites were delightsome; there were lots of false Christs, false prophets and teachers, whose mouths had to be shut and who were punished according to their crimes. (Were they executed as required by Deuteronomy 18:20?)
There had been false Christs, and their mouths had been shut, and they punished according to their crimes. v.15
And after there had been false prophets, and false preachers and teachers among the people, and all these having been punished according to their crimes. v.16
Luckily, though, King Benjamin was holy, and there were many other holy men, and the holy men used much sharpness against the sticknecked people.
For behold, king Benjamin was a holy man ... and there were many holy men ... and they did use much sharpness because of the stiffneckedness of the people. v.17
So everything worked out well in the end and there was peace in the land.
Wherefore, with the help of these, king Benjamin, by laboring with all the might of his body and the faculty of his whole soul, and also the prophets, did once more establish peace in the land. v.18
And that's all the Spirit of the Lord whispered to Mormon Jr.


Posted by Steve Wells at 11/09/2012 07:00:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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2 comments:
 Stephen said...
I see the word "stiffneckedness" does not appear in the KJV... it must be a word J Smith received from god... he couldn't possibly have made it up!
Steve Weeks
Sat Nov 10, 04:45:00 AM 2012 
 Measure said...
Verse 11 is such a neat wrap-up ending to the book of mormon it makes me believe that at some point it was intended to be the final verse of the book.
Then, whoever was writing it decided to expand the book, and finishes out this chapter as a segue to Mosiah.
Sat Nov 10, 09:24:00 AM 2012 
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 08 November 2012Look what came in the mail today!

We just approved the mockup. Printing begins next week.
Posted by Steve Wells at 11/08/2012 07:22:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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3 comments:
 Peter Garbett said...
I want one! For christmas? Oh the irony!
Thu Nov 08, 09:35:00 PM 2012 
 Stephen said...
I pre-ordered one! :-D
Steve Weeks
Fri Nov 09, 06:29:00 PM 2012 
 skanksta said...
nice one Steve, they look like fine Christmas presents to me.

Tue Nov 13, 04:54:00 PM 2012 
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 03 November 2012Judas and his unarmed men kill 3000 of Gorgias' soldiers
In Judas Machabeus' first set of God-assisted killings, He told his men not to worry about large opposing armies. Because success in war depends not on numbers, but on God. "The Lord himself will overthrow them." And that seemed to work well enough, though Judas and his men still had to do at least some of the killing.
This time, though, Judas doesn't even pretend to fight. He and his men didn't have a single sword among them. They didn't need any; God did it all for them.
Here's the story.
Judas and the Israelites prepare for war by putting on haircloth, putting ashes on their heads, rending their garments, blowing trumpets, and crying together with a loud, long, boring prayer to heaven.
The assembly was gathered that they might be ready for battle ...They ... put on haircloth, and put ashes upon their heads: and they rent their garments. 1 Machabees 3:44-47
They cried with a loud voice toward heaven, saying: What shall we do with these, and whither shall we carry them? v.50
For thy holies are trodden down, and are profaned, and thy priests are in mourning, and are brought low. v.51
And behold the nations are come together against us to destroy us: thou knowest what they intend against us. v.52
How shall we be able to stand before their face, unless thou, O God, help us? v.53
Then they sounded with trumpets, and cried out with a loud voice. v.54
And the war rituals worked like magic.

Judas and his completely unarmed valiant men defeated 5000 well-armed soldiers. He told his men not to do anything; God would do the killing for them. And he did.
Gorgias took five thousand men, and a thousand of the best horsemen: and they removed out of the camp by night. That they might come upon the camp of the Jews, and strike them suddenly. 4:1-2
And Judas heard of it ... he and the valiant men.  v.3
Judas shewed himself in the plain with three thousand men only, who neither had armour nor swords. v.6
Judas said to the men that were with him: Fear ye not their multitude. v.8
Remember in what manner our fathers were saved in the Red Sea, when Pharao pursued them with a great army. v.9
Let us cry to heaven: and the Lord ... will destroy this army. v.10
Judas blew the trumpet and God killed 3000 Gentile soldiers.
They that were with Judas sounded the trumpet ... and the Gentiles were routed. v.13-14
All the hindmost of them fell by the sword ... and there fell of them to the number of three thousand men. v.15
 Then Judas and his men enriched themselves with the booty.
Judas returned to take the spoils of the camp, and they got much gold, and silver, and blue silk, and purple of the sea, and great riches. v.23
As they left bodies of God's victims, they sang a hymn to God, praising him for his mercy.
And returning home they sung a hymn, and blessed God in heaven, because he is good, because his mercy endureth for ever. v.24
And prepared for God's next killing.

Posted by Steve Wells at 11/03/2012 12:04:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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2 comments:
 David Evans said...
If Judas and his men had no swords, how is it possible that 3,000 of his enemies fell by the sword?
Fri Nov 09, 02:32:00 PM 2012 
 Steve Wells said...
Good question, David.
I guess God must have brought his own sword when he came to destroy them. He says in Deuteronomy 32:42 that his "sword shall devour flesh." So maybe his sword devoured all 3000 by himself.
Fri Nov 09, 03:07:00 PM 2012 
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 02 November 2012The Book of Omni: The Nephites discover the Mulekites and Jaredites (who also sailed from Israel to America)
The Book of Omni gets off to a great start for a book in the Book of Mormon with the words "Behold, it came to pass" but it goes downhill quickly from there. The purpose of Omni's little book is the same as the purpose of his father's book (the Book of  Jarom) -- to preserve their genealogy. Exciting stuff.
Behold, it came to pass that I, Omni, being commanded by my father, Jarom, that I should write somewhat upon these plates, to preserve our genealogy. Omni 1
It turns out that Omni's little book wasn't written by Omni, at least most of it wasn't. Omni only wrote the first three verses, from which we learn the following things: Omni fought a lot with Lamanites, he was a wicked man, and he had a son named Amaron, who received the plates from Omni when he died.
I fought much with the sword to preserve my people, the Nephites, from falling into the hands of their enemies, the Lamanites. But behold, I of myself am a wicked man ... and I had kept these plates according to the commandments of my fathers; and I conferred them upon my son Amaron. And I make an end. 2-3
Amaron was a bit more prolific than his father, writing five verses. From them we learn that after 320 years the more wicked part of the Nephites were destroyed, but the Lord saved the righteous ones. Then Amaron passed the plates to his brother Chemish.
And now I, Amaron, write the things whatsoever I write, which are few, in the book of my father. Behold, it came to pass that three hundred and twenty years had passed away, and the more wicked part of the Nephites were destroyed. ... Nevertheless, he did spare the righteous that they should not perish, but did deliver them out of the hands of their enemies. And it came to pass that I did deliver the plates unto my brother Chemish. 4-8
Chemish wrote a few things in a single verse in the same book, from which we learn that his brother Amaron wrote what he wrote with his own hand (not somebody else's) and he wrote his five verses in a single day, after the manner that the Nephites kept there records, according to the commandments of their fathers.
And with that, Chemish made an end.
Now I, Chemish, write what few things I write, in the same book with my brother; for behold, I saw the last which he wrote, that he wrote it with his own hand; and he wrote it in the day that he delivered them unto me. And after this manner we keep the records, for it is according to the commandments of our fathers. And I make an end. 9
After Chemish made an end, his son Abinadom took over. Abinadom wrote two verses with three beholds, saying that he killed many Lamanites with his own sword. But he didn't know of any new revelations, "wherefore, that which is sufficient is written."
Behold, I, Abinadom, am the son of Chemish. Behold, it came to pass that I saw much war and contention between my people, the Nephites, and the Lamanites; and I, with my own sword, have taken the lives of many of the Lamanites in the defence of my brethren. And behold, the record of this people is engraven upon plates which is had by the kings, according to the generations; and I know of no revelation save that which has been written, neither prophecy; wherefore, that which is sufficient is written. And I make an end. 10-11
After Abinadom's end, his son Amaleki took over. He spoke somewhat concerning Mosiah, the king of Zarahemla, which was a new land that the Nephites discovered while fleeing from the evil Lamanites.
Behold, I am Amaleki, the son of Abinadom. Behold, I will speak unto you somewhat concerning Mosiah, who was made king over the land of Zarahemla; for behold, he being warned of the Lord that he should flee out of the land of Nephi ... into the wilderness ... until they came down into the land which is called the land of Zarahemla. 12-13
When the Nephites arrived in Zarahemla, they found the land already inhabited by the people of Zarahemla, who rejoiced exceedingly when they saw the Nephites because they had the plates of brass with the genealogies of the Jews.
And they discovered a people, who were called the people of Zarahemla. Now, there was great rejoicing among the people of Zarahemla; and also Zarahemla did rejoice exceedingly, because the Lord had sent the people of Mosiah with the plates of brass which contained the record of the Jews. 14
Now you might be wondering where these mysterious people of Zarahemla came from. It turns out that they were also long lost Israelites  That's right! They were seafaring Jews that, with God's help, sailed over "the great waters" from Israel after it was attacked by Babylon in 586 BCE. (The people of Zarahemla are called "Mulekites" later in the Book of Mormon. See Helaman 6:10)
Behold, it came to pass that Mosiah discovered that the people of Zarahemla came out from Jerusalem at the time that Zedekiah, king of Judah, was carried away captive into Babylon.
And they journeyed in the wilderness, and were brought by the hand of the Lord across the great waters, into the land where Mosiah discovered them; and they had dwelt there from that time forth.15-16
After arriving in the New World, the people of Zarahemla (aka the Mulekites) became exceedingly numerous. But from time to time they had wars and whatnot. And because they didn't write stuff on brass plates, they became atheists and their language (Reformed Egyptian) became corrupted. So the people of Zarahemla and the people of Mosiah couldn't understand one another.
And at the time that Mosiah discovered them, they had become exceedingly numerous. Nevertheless, they had had many wars and serious contentions, and had fallen by the sword from time to time; and their language had become corrupted; and they had brought no records with them; and they denied the being of their Creator; and Mosiah, nor the people of Mosiah, could understand them. 17
But these problems were easily solved. Mosiah taught the people of Zarahamla how to speak in Mosiah's language (Reformed Egyptian -- like all indigenous Americans speak), so they could write down their genealogies too. (Although they didn't get to write them on the plates of Nephi.)
But it came to pass that Mosiah caused that they should be taught in his language. And it came to pass that after they were taught in the language of Mosiah, Zarahemla gave a genealogy of his fathers, according to his memory; and they are written, but not in these plates. 18
After that, it came to pass that the people of Zarhemla and of Mosiah united together and made Mosiah their king.
And it came to pass that the people of Zarahemla, and of Mosiah, did unite together; and Mosiah was appointed to be their king. 19
Then someone found this big rock with engravings on it. Mosiah, with the help of God, interpreted the engravings and found that they were written by a guy named Coriantumr, who lived with the people of Zarahemla for the space of nine moons. ("Nine moons" is "Indian talk" for nine months.)
And it came to pass in the days of Mosiah, there was a large stone brought unto him with engravings on it; and he did interpret the engravings by the gift and power of God. And they gave an account of one Coriantumr, and the slain of his people. And Coriantumr was discovered by the people of Zarahemla; and he dwelt with them for the space of nine moons. 20-21
Okay, so where did this Coriantumr fellow come from?

Well, Israel, of course, silly! All the indigenous people in the Western Hemisphere came from Israel at one time or another. The Nephites sailed over in 600 BCE, the people of Zarahemla (aka the Mulekites) did likewise in 586 BCE, as did Corantumr's people (aka the Jaredites) at the time of the Tower of Babel. (You can read more all about the Jaredites in the Book of Ether.)
It also spake a few words concerning his fathers. And his first parents came out from the tower, at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people; and the severity of the Lord fell upon them according to his judgments, which are just; and their bones lay scattered in the land northward. 22
After Amaleki finished telling stories about the Mulekites and Jaredites, he began to be old and having no seed, he passed the plates to King Benjamin, who succeeded King Mosiah, and who drove the Lamanites out of the land of Zarahemla.
Behold, I, Amaleki, was born in the days of Mosiah; and I have lived to see his death; and Benjamin, his son, reigneth in his stead. And behold, I have seen, in the days of king Benjamin, a serious war and much bloodshed between the Nephites and the Lamanites. But behold, the Nephites did obtain much advantage over them; yea, insomuch that king Benjamin did drive them out of the land of Zarahemla. And it came to pass that I began to be old; and, having no seed, and knowing king Benjamin to be a just man before the Lord, wherefore, I shall deliver up these plates unto him...23-25a
King Benjamin told everyone to believe in prophesying, revelations, speaking in tongues (which, according to the Bible, no one did until the day of Pentecost), and getting saved through Christ (who wouldn't be born for another couple centuries).
...exhorting all men to come unto God, the Holy One of Israel, and believe in prophesying, and in revelations, and in the ministering of angels, and in the gift of speaking with tongues ... And now, my beloved brethren, I would that ye should come unto Christ ...  and as the Lord liveth ye will be saved. 25b-26
Before Amaleki makes an end of his speaking, he tells us about a certain number of Nephites who leave Zarahelma and to return to the land of Nephi. They were led by a stiff-necked guy that got all of them killed, save fifty. After that, it came to pass that there was another attempted migration to the land of Nephi, with Amaleki's brother among them, and no one has heard from them since.
And now I would speak somewhat concerning a certain number who went up into the wilderness to return to the land of Nephi ... And their leader being a strong and mighty man, and a stiffnecked man, wherefore he caused a contention among them; and they were all slain, save fifty, in the wilderness, and they returned again to the land of Zarahemla. And it came to pass that they also took others to a considerable number, and took their journey again into the wilderness. And I, Amaleki, had a brother, who also went with them; and I have not since known concerning them. 27-30a
 And with that bit of news, Amaleki makes an end of his speaking, and with the plates full, goes down in his grave.
And I am about to lie down in my grave; and these plates are full. And I make an end of my speaking. 30b
Posted by Steve Wells at 11/02/2012 09:55:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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1 comment:
 Stephen said...
I wonder how many times the Book of Mor(m)on contains the words "And now I would speak (prophesy, write. etc.) somewhat concerning..."
I do not believe this phrase appears even once in the Bible.
Steve Weeks
Sat Nov 03, 03:36:00 PM 2012 
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 01 November 2012Mitt Romney helps us understand his faith (before he gets angry and walks out)

From the WhatMormonsBelieve.com
Question: Do Mormons believe that when Jesus returns, he will rule Earth from Jackson County, Missouri?
Prior to Christ’s Second Coming we know certain events will take place. Among the many signs of His coming, scriptures teach that prior to Christ’s return the 12 tribes of Israel and the saints of God will be gathered together both spiritually and physically (Jeremiah 23:3).  The city of Jerusalem will be rebuilt and the Lord will then bring again Zion, the New Jerusalem, down from heaven (Rev. 21:2, Rev. 3:12, Moses 7:60-64).
Latterday revelation revealed to Joseph Smith in 1832 teaches us that this Zion, the New Jerusalem, will be built upon the American continent. In Doctrine and Covenants 84:2-3 the Lord reveals: “Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of this prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem.  Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri….”  This is the region known as Jackson County.
Following Christ’s return, Jerusalem and Zion (the New Jerusalem) will exist as two great capitals where Christ’s people will live and where Christ will dwell and reign personally on the earth (Micah 4:2) in some sort of divine government (D&C 45:59, Dan. 7:13-14). Thus the scripture, “For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem”(Isaiah 2:3) will be fulfilled. While we do not know the details of how this divine government will work, we do know that Zion, the New Jerusalem, will be located in Missouri and will be a central place for the ruling and running of the Lord’s Kingdom during the Millennium.
(So, I think the answer to the question is Yes.)
Posted by Steve Wells at 11/01/2012 08:42:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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3 comments:
 Alexander Johannesen said...
Wow, this is the guy who large swaths of the USA thinks is the best thing evah!, and you guys just might end up with as a president? Oh, vey!
Thu Nov 01, 09:42:00 PM 2012 
 Stephen said...
Well, his lazy-ass deity didn't do much to help him win the election. Some powerful friend!
Steve Weeks
Wed Nov 07, 04:35:00 AM 2012 
 Alan Lake said...
He didn't "get angry and walk out" except in the pathetic constructions you make to force reality into your world view.
So if anyone is assertive about a proposition you don't like, then they are "getting angry", in your world?
And if someone hangs around for 5 minutes after the defined on-air period for an interview, then he's "walking out"? He's only Presidential candidate for Christs sake, why can't he just chat all day?
You'd make a good religious bigot, you've already got the mindset.
Fri Nov 09, 12:42:00 AM 2012 
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Everybody must get stoned
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 01 November 2012Mitt Romney helps us understand his faith (before he gets angry and walks out)

From the WhatMormonsBelieve.com
Question: Do Mormons believe that when Jesus returns, he will rule Earth from Jackson County, Missouri?
Prior to Christ’s Second Coming we know certain events will take place. Among the many signs of His coming, scriptures teach that prior to Christ’s return the 12 tribes of Israel and the saints of God will be gathered together both spiritually and physically (Jeremiah 23:3).  The city of Jerusalem will be rebuilt and the Lord will then bring again Zion, the New Jerusalem, down from heaven (Rev. 21:2, Rev. 3:12, Moses 7:60-64).
Latterday revelation revealed to Joseph Smith in 1832 teaches us that this Zion, the New Jerusalem, will be built upon the American continent. In Doctrine and Covenants 84:2-3 the Lord reveals: “Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of this prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem.  Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri….”  This is the region known as Jackson County.
Following Christ’s return, Jerusalem and Zion (the New Jerusalem) will exist as two great capitals where Christ’s people will live and where Christ will dwell and reign personally on the earth (Micah 4:2) in some sort of divine government (D&C 45:59, Dan. 7:13-14). Thus the scripture, “For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem”(Isaiah 2:3) will be fulfilled. While we do not know the details of how this divine government will work, we do know that Zion, the New Jerusalem, will be located in Missouri and will be a central place for the ruling and running of the Lord’s Kingdom during the Millennium.
(So, I think the answer to the question is Yes.)
Posted by Steve Wells at 11/01/2012 08:42:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:  
3 comments:
 Alexander Johannesen said...
Wow, this is the guy who large swaths of the USA thinks is the best thing evah!, and you guys just might end up with as a president? Oh, vey!
Thu Nov 01, 09:42:00 PM 2012 
 Stephen said...
Well, his lazy-ass deity didn't do much to help him win the election. Some powerful friend!
Steve Weeks
Wed Nov 07, 04:35:00 AM 2012 
 Alan Lake said...
He didn't "get angry and walk out" except in the pathetic constructions you make to force reality into your world view.
So if anyone is assertive about a proposition you don't like, then they are "getting angry", in your world?
And if someone hangs around for 5 minutes after the defined on-air period for an interview, then he's "walking out"? He's only Presidential candidate for Christs sake, why can't he just chat all day?
You'd make a good religious bigot, you've already got the mindset.
Fri Nov 09, 12:42:00 AM 2012 
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Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
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50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
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 28 December 2012Piers Morgan: The Bible is flawed and should be amended
On Christmas Eve, Piers Morgan interviewed Rick Warren. Here are some excerpts:
On slavery:
MORGAN: -- He [Abraham Lincoln] knew instinctively it was just wrong, unfair, unequal.
WARREN: And why did he know that? Because it's in the Bible.
[No it isn't. See here for what the Bible says about slavery.]

On rape:
WARREN: I think the Bible is true; not everything in the Bible that is explained in the Bible does the Bible commend.
For instance, there's rape in the Bible. The Bible's clearly against rape.
[No it isn't. See here for what the Bible says about rape.]
On adultery:
MORGAN: But the Bible says if you commit adultery, you're going to be stoned to death.
WARREN: That's -- that is a, as we said before, that's a civil law for the nation of Israel.
MORGAN: But it's still an element of the Bible that is flawed.
WARREN: Well, evidently, for that generation, that's their -- that's their commandment. ... But it's not one of the moral laws.
[Yes it is. See here for the Bible's (im)moral law on adultery.]
On Amending the Bible:
MORGAN: The Bible and the Constitution were well intentioned, but they are basically inherently flawed. Hence the need to amend it.
My point to you about gay rights, for example, it's time for an amendment to the Bible.
WARREN: Not a chance. What I -- what I believe is flawed is human opinion because it constantly changes. In fact, we do it every eight years in America. We have a -- we have a change in opinion; what was -- what was hot is now not.
And I willingly admit -- willingly admit that I base my world view on the Bible, which I believe is true, and truth -- my definition of truth is if it's new, it's not true. If it was true 1,000 years ago, it'll be true 1,000 years from today. Opinion changes, but truth doesn't.
MORGAN: We're going to agree to disagree on that.
Watch Rick Warren lie and squirm his way out of the obvious truth of Piers Morgan's statements about the Bible.

Posted by Steve Wells at 12/28/2012 06:18:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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9 comments:
 Ben said...
Not sure how you take the references listed from the Bible and state that it condones rape?
Fri Dec 28, 07:19:00 AM 2012 
 Steve Wells said...
OK,maybe you're right, Ben.
Maybe the Bible doesn't condone rape -- well, except for in times of war. Then it's OK. (Numbers 31:15-18)
And it says that a woman who is raped in the city should be stoned to death if she doesn't cry out loud enough. (Dt 22:23-24)
Heck, it even requires a rapist to pay the father of his victim 50 shekels and then marry her. (Dt. 22:28-29)
So I see your point, Ben. The Bible only condones rape in times of war. Otherwise, the rapist must pay the father of his victim 50 shekels and then marry her -- unless she doesn't cry out loud enough, in which case she must be stoned to death.
Thanks for the correction.
Fri Dec 28, 07:50:00 AM 2012 
 thewayofconvergence said...
Steve, your quoting the Bible like a fundamentalist. Why not interpret it like many thinking Christians do, as a socio-historical text? Christians are, by definition, followers of Jesus - what does he say about rape and slavery? Quote him for a better representation.
Sat Dec 29, 12:54:00 AM 2012 
 Steve Wells said...
The difference between a fundamentalist and a thinking Christian is that the former believes in the Bible and the latter does not.
Jesus, by the way, was a fundamentalist when it came to the Hebrew scriptures. Here's what he (supposedly) had to say about it: "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven." Mt 5:18-19
Sat Dec 29, 05:46:00 AM 2012 
 Stephen said...
"The Way of Convergence" places great stock in "presuppositions"...
"It's becoming more and more obvious to me that presuppositions are crucial in the thinking game. Often people get labeled wrongly or misunderstood, not because there is a ideological conflict, but rather because the two sides involved are operating off different presuppositions that have not been clarified before dialogue has begun." (from TWOC web site)
"Presupposition" is another word for "assumption". You know what they say about what happens when you assume. ;-)
Assumptions should be based on the best available evidence. When you assume ("presuppose") that "the Bible is the inspired word of God", you need to consider the available supporting evidence. Hint: first you need to consider the evidence for the existence of "god".
Assuming ;-) that you believe your "evidence", then you must explain how the "inspired word" contains so much that is "apocryphal, or at least wildly inaccurate" (credit: Douglas Adams), and contradictory. Pretty sloppy inspiration, if you ask me.
Steve Weeks
Sat Dec 29, 07:02:00 PM 2012 
 yminoh said...
I can't watch the video b/c I'm at work...but I'm curious of what the contents of an 'amended' bible would be.Besides what was listed, what else would be taken out..and what would be added.
Sun Dec 30, 07:37:00 AM 2012 
 Stephen said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Sun Dec 30, 08:53:00 AM 2012 
 Stephen said...
Blogger Stephen said...
@yminoh:
Well, Thomas Jefferson had an idea about that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible
It is still available: http://www.amazon.com/Jefferson-Bible-Morals-Jesus-Nazareth/dp/1604591285
And if you can't have an "amended" bible, there's always the "annotated" version!
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/
Steve Weeks
Sun Dec 30, 03:55:00 PM 2012 
 ds said...
OK,maybe you're right, Ben.
Maybe the Bible doesn't condone rape -- well, except for in times of war. Then it's OK. (Numbers 31:15-18)
Odd, that passage doesnt actually say rape is right in time of war. What it says is that in a particular campaign Moses spared all the virgins ( which in that culture would have been underge girls) but executed the women because they had been complict in an earlier incident. But then I guess thats what happens when you read instead of just rattling off quotes
"And it says that a woman who is raped in the city should be stoned to death if she doesn't cry out loud enough. (Dt 22:23-24)"
Err No, it says that when a married women and man are found having sex then if there is evidence the women consented both are punished. YOu seem to confuse adultery with rape. Do I need to explain the difference.
"Heck, it even requires a rapist to pay the father of his victim 50 shekels and then marry her. (Dt. 22:28-29)"
Wrong again, that passage states a man who sleeps with an unmarried virgin must marry her. Again sex with an unmarried women is not rape.
"So I see your point, Ben. The Bible only condones rape in times of war. Otherwise, the rapist must pay the father of his victim 50 shekels and then marry her -- unless she doesn't cry out loud enough, in which case she must be stoned to death. "
No that just shows you simply cite internet cites without actually reading texts, or even understanding what they actually say.
"Thanks for the correction."
Your welcome.
Fri Jan 03, 06:58:00 PM 2014 
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 17 December 2012The perfect (late) Christmas present!
OK, so it won't be here in time for Christmas.
But you can buy the book and present a card announcing your gift, which is just about as good.


Posted by Steve Wells at 12/17/2012 04:19:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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2 comments:
 skanksta said...
Any idea if/when it will be available on amazon.co.uk ?
Fri Dec 28, 06:03:00 PM 2012 
 Steve Wells said...
Well, the book has finished printing and we plan to make it available at Amazon.com as soon as the books arrive at our warehouse. We'll try to make it available at Amazon.co.uk as well, but we may have to work out some distribution issues. I'll announce it at the blog and SAB website when the books are available at Amazon.
Fri Dec 28, 08:00:00 PM 2012 
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 16 December 2012Mosiah 11: Wicked King Noah
Zeniff's reign was at an end, and he conferred the kingdom upon his son, Noah.  Noah was a wicked king.  Unlike his father, he taxed the people, and spent the tax revenue on concubines, his priests, and a newly-constructed palace filled with precious things.
...Zeniff conferred the kingdom upon Noah 11:1
...He did not keep the commandments of God ... And he had many wives and concubines. 11:2
And he laid a tax of one fifth part of all they possessed. 11:3
And all this did he take to support himself, and his wives and his concubines; and also his priests, and their wives and their concubines; thus he had changed the affairs of the kingdom. 11:4
And he also built him a spacious palace, and a throne in the midst thereof, all of which was of fine wood and was ornamented with gold and silver and with precious things. 11:9
 He also built a very high tower, so he could see everything in his kingdom.
And it came to pass that he built a tower near the temple; yea, a very high tower, even so high that he could stand upon the top thereof and overlook the land of Shilom, and also the land of Shemlon, which was possessed by the Lamanites; and he could even look over all the land round about. 11:12

Since there is no archaeological evidence, I'm
going to assume that Noah's tower looked like
Sauron's tower, Barad-dûr.  Both towers share
 an equal chance of actually existing in the New
World at the time.
King Noah was so evil that he even became a wine-bibber.
And it came to pass that he planted vineyards round about in the land; and he built wine-presses, and made wine in abundance; and therefore he became a wine-bibber, and also his people.11:15
Then the Lamanites started attacking Noah's people.  He wasn't very good at protecting them, though.  (He was too busy wine-bibbing with his concubines in his exceedingly high tower.)  He sends out guards, but it is too little, too late.
The Lamanites began to come in upon his people ... to slay them in their fields, and while they were tending their flocks. 11:16 
And king Noah sent guards round about the land to keep them off; but he did not send a sufficient number, and the Lamanites came upon them and killed them. 11:17
They have a battle, and Noah's people win.  They then start boasting, and delighting in the blood of their victory.  Everyone joined in, except a man named Abinadi.  Abinadi began to prophesy unto them, telling them how wicked they all were, and how they should repent (or else).
And now, because of this great victory they were lifted up in the pride of their hearts; they did boast in their own strength, saying that their fifty could stand against thousands of the Lamanites; and thus they did boast, and did delight in blood, and the shedding of the blood of their brethren, and this because of the wickedness of their king and priests. 11:19
And it came to pass that there was a man among them whose name was Abinadi; and he went forth among them, and began to prophesy, saying: Behold, thus saith the Lord, and thus hath he commanded me, saying, Go forth, and say unto this people, thus saith the Lord -- Wo be unto this people, for I have seen their abominations, and their wickedness, and their whoredoms; and except they repent I will visit them in mine anger. 11:20
After Abinadi was done with his prophesying, the people were angry with him.  They tried to kill him, but God didn't let them.  When King Noah found out about it, he ordered that Abinadi be brought to him so he could kill him.
Now it came to pass that when Abinadi had spoken these words unto them they were wroth with him, and sought to take away his life; but the Lord delivered him out of their hands. 11:26
Now when king Noah had heard of the words which Abinadi had spoken unto the people, he was also wroth; and he said: Who is Abinadi, that I and my people should be judged of him, or who is the Lord, that shall bring upon my people such great affliction? 11:27
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The chapter ends with a cliffhanger.... What will happen to Abinadi?  You'll just have to wait until next time.
Posted by Philip Wells at 12/16/2012 03:10:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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2 comments:
 Stephen said...
Of course Barad-dûr has the same chance of existing in the New World as King Noah's tower... that would be *zero*... because Barad-dûr was in MIDDLE EARTH! Sheesh!
Anyway, what's so bad about a 20% tax? That's way less than the 1% are going to pay!
;-)
Steve Weeks
Sun Dec 16, 06:48:00 PM 2012 
 Jferrin said...
Imagine what the people would say though if Obama built an exceedingly tall tower filled with concubines. I mean I don't think even Bill Clinton could get away with that.
Mon Dec 17, 09:21:00 AM 2012 
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 11 December 2012Beta Testing is now closed
Hello Everyone!
Due to the enthusiastic response (and my full inbox), Beta Testing is now closed.
Thanks for the interest!


Posted by Philip Wells at 12/11/2012 10:42:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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1 comment:
 suhan Hossain said...
thanks for good news . i am very happy . thanks for share
Quran Tutors Online Quran Reading Online
Thu Dec 20, 10:02:00 PM 2012 
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 10 December 2012iPhone App Beta Testers Needed!
Calling all iPhone/iPad/iPod touch users!  We have been working on a SAB app for some time now, and it's finally time for beta testing.  We're looking for people who are willing to spend some real time with the app, get a feel for it and then send in feedback/corrections to our app designer.  If you are interested and have an iDevice running iOS 5 or later, then send an email to SABappfeedback@gmail.com
Thanks!
Philip and Steve
Posted by Philip Wells at 12/10/2012 02:16:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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7 comments:
 Jeff said...
I'll be "that guy" and say I'll be first in line for the inevitable Android version! ;)
Mon Dec 10, 04:52:00 PM 2012 
 There are some who call me... Tim said...
I feel for you, Jeff... I had an Android tablet when the "The Greatest Show on Earth" iPad app/book came out. Asked if the publisher was going to make an Android version and got a heart-felt apology and the answer of "no".
(Was the nicest and most polite rejection I had received in years.)
Mon Dec 10, 06:30:00 PM 2012 
 Stephen said...
I wish I had a smartphone. :-(
Steve Weeks
Tue Dec 11, 07:16:00 AM 2012 
 Sandra said...
I could be up for this. I have an iPhone running 5.1.1. What kind of feedback are you looking for? I'm not an agnostic nor your standard atheist. I am a Christian Heretic--more heretic than Christian, say most Christians.
Tue Dec 11, 10:04:00 AM 2012 
 Philip Wells said...
We will be coming out with an Android version (eventually), and you can hold me to it. We want to see how the iPhone version does first, and then we'll hire a designer to convert it.
Both Steve and I have Android phones, so you can count on Android version *fairly* soon.
Tue Dec 11, 10:46:00 AM 2012 
 Unknown said...
I'd love to help you guys, but I have an Android. If you guys make a droid app I'll be the second in line for it, since Jeff already called dibs for the first spot :)
Fri Dec 14, 09:14:00 PM 2012 
 Ryan Tani said...
Can I still volunteer for this? I have an iphone and ipad
Wed Mar 20, 12:56:00 AM 2013 
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 10 December 2012Mosiah 10: 22 years of peace
After the bloodshed in the last chapter, Zeniff wises up and prepares for the next onslaught of Lamanites.  He tells his people to make every kind of weapon, and he posts guards around the land.
10:1 And it came to pass that we again began to establish the kingdom and we again began to possess the land in peace. And I caused that there should be weapons of war made of every kind, that thereby I might have weapons for my people against the time the Lamanites should come up again to war against my people.
10:2 And I set guards round about the land, that the Lamanites might not come upon us again unawares and destroy us; and thus I did guard my people and my flocks, and keep them from falling into the hands of our enemies.
Its seemed to work pretty well, too.  They had 22 years of continual peace, which is pretty good for the Book of Mormon.
10:3 And it came to pass that we did inherit the land of our fathers for many years, yea, for the space of twenty and two years.
But when King Laman died, his son began to reign, and he lost no time getting ready for battle.
10:6 And it came to pass that king Laman died, and his son began to reign in his stead. And he began to stir his people up in rebellion against my people; therefore they began to prepare for war, and to come up to battle against my people.
Then Zeniff saw a host of Lamanites on a hill overlooking his land (Lamanites are easy to identify, since they shave their heads and walk around in leather underwear).   Zeniff hid all of the women and children in the woods and armed the men and boys for battle.
10:8 And it came to pass that they came up upon the north of the land of Shilom, with their numerous hosts, men armed with bows, and with arrows, and with swords, and with cimeters, and with stones, and with slings; and they had their heads shaved that they were naked; and they were girded with a leathern girdle about their loins.  
10:9 And it came to pass that I caused that the women and children of my people should be hid in the wilderness; and I also caused that all my old men that could bear arms, and also all my young men that were able to bear arms, should gather themselves together to go to battle against the Lamanites; and I did place them in their ranks, every man according to his age.
Before the battle, Zeniff rouses his troops with a speech about the Lamanites, and why they hate the Nephites so much.  Apparently the Lamanites were wroth with the the Nephites from the beginning, and are still wroth with them today (who would have guessed?).  They still teach their children to hate the Nephites with an "eternal hatred".  So it's best to kill them when you get the chance.  It makes you wonder why Zeniff wanted to defend them so badly last chapter...
10:12 They were a wild, and ferocious, and a blood-thirsty people, believing in the tradition of their fathers, which is this -- Believing that they were driven out of the land of Jerusalem because of the iniquities of their fathers, and that they were wronged in the wilderness by their brethren, and they were also wronged while crossing the sea;
10:17 And thus they have taught their children that they should hate them, and that they should murder them, and that they should rob and plunder them, and do all they could to destroy them; therefore they have an eternal hatred towards the children of Nephi.
Of course the good guys win the battle, but Zeniff doesn't provide any details.  Instead, he passes the kingdom to his son, Noah.  Then he signs off.
10:20 And it came to pass that we did drive them again out of our land; and we slew them with a great slaughter, even so many that we did not number them.
10:22 And now I, being old, did confer the kingdom upon one of my sons; therefore, I say no more. And may the Lord bless my people. Amen.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The next chapter introduces King Noah, who is a fun character.  He is the preferred villain in the Book of Mormon, so we'll have some fun with him.

Posted by Steve Wells at 12/10/2012 02:00:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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1 comment:
 Ben said...
I often wonder what our "king" would appear like if described by a prophet. Noah taxed 1/5, Obama taxes 1/2!
www.bensopinion.com
Tue Dec 11, 01:19:00 PM 2012 
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 08 December 2012Mosiah 9: The start of the Record of Zeniff
Chapters 9-22 in the Book of Mosiah are a flashback that recount the Record of Zeniff (Zeniff was the first guy to leave Zarahemla to try to find the Nephites.)  If you remember, in the last post, King Limhi presented Ammon with two sets of plates.  The first set of plates were the Record of Zeniff, and the second set of plates were the mysterious plates of pure gold that were found by his people when they were lost, wandering among the ruins in the "land of many waters". 

Got that straight?  Okay, here we go.
Zeniff and his men were originally sent from Zarahemla on a reconnaissance mission to find out the strengths and weaknesses of the Lamanite army. Once Zeniff saw the Lamanites, however, he saw "that which was good among them" and he didn't want them to be destroyed.  Go figure.
9:1 I, Zeniff, having been taught in all the language of the Nephites, and having had a knowledge of the land of Nephi, or of the land of our fathers' first inheritance, and having been sent as a spy among the Lamanites that I might spy out their forces, that our army might come upon them and destroy them -- but when I saw that which was good among them I was desirous that they should not be destroyed.
Zeniff asked his group's leader to make a treaty with them, but this didn't go so well.  The leader commanded that Zeniff be killed for even suggesting such a thing.  Some sided with Zeniff, and this led to infighting where "father fought against father, and brother fought against brother."  Most of the group died in the fighting.  The rest of the group returned with Zeniff to Zarahemla to tell the cool story to their wives and children.
9:2 Therefore, I contended with my brethren in the wilderness for I would that our ruler should make a treaty with them; but he being an austere and a bloodthirsty man commanded that I should be slain; but I was rescued by the shedding of much blood; for father fought against father, and brother against brother, until the greater number of our army was destroyed in the wilderness; and we returned, those of us that were spared, to the land of Zarahemla, to relate that tale to their wives and their children.
Then they decide to go back.  They wander in the wilderness, and it is a pretty tough journey, since they were "slow to remember God."  God punishes Zeniff's people with famine and sore afflictions, but they make it there eventually.  Maybe next time they will be quicker to remember God.
 9:3 And yet, I being over-zealous to inherit the land of our fathers, collected as many as were desirous to go up to possess the land, and started again on our journey into the wilderness to go up to the land; but we were smitten with famine and sore afflictions; for we were slow to remember the Lord our God. 
9:4 Nevertheless, after many days' wandering in the wilderness we pitched our tents in the place where our brethren were slain, which was near to the land of our fathers. 
Once they set up camp, Zeniff picks four of his men and goes down to meet the Lamanite king.
9:5 And it came to pass that I went again with four of my men into the city, in unto the king, that I might know of the disposition of the king, and that I might know if I might go in with my people and possess the land in peace.
It goes surprisingly well.  The Lamanite king commands his people to clear the land immediately, and he gives the land to Zeniff and his people.  Score! They start repairing walls and growing crops and stuff.
9:6 And I went in unto the king, and he covenanted with me that I might possess the land of Lehi-Nephi, and the land of Shilom. 
9:7 And he also commanded that his people should depart out of the land, and I and my people went into the land that we might possess it. 
9:8 And we began to build buildings, and to repair the walls of the city, yea, even the walls of the city of Lehi-Nephi, and the city of Shilom.
9:9 And we began to till the ground, yea, even with all manner of seeds, with seeds of corn, and of wheat, and of barley, and with neas, and with sheum, and with seeds of all manner of fruits; and we did begin to multiply and prosper in the land.
 King Laman had a cunning and crafty plan, though.  He only gave them the land so that he could put them in bondage later.
9:10 Now it was the cunning and the craftiness of king Laman, to bring my people into bondage, that he yielded up the land that we might possess it.
Twelve years later, King Laman enacts his plan.  Zeniff's people are attacked by a host of Lamanites.  The people rush to Zeniff for protection.
9:11 Therefore it came to pass, that after we had dwelt in the land for the space of twelve years that king Laman began to grow uneasy, lest by any means my people should wax strong in the land, and that they could not overpower them and bring them into bondage.
9:13 Therefore it came to pass that king Laman began to stir up his people that they should contend with my people; therefore there began to be wars and contentions in the land.
9:15 Yea, And it came to pass that they fled, all that were not overtaken, even into the city of Nephi, and did call upon me for protection.
Unfortunately for the Lamanites, Zeniff is prepared.  He arms his people with all kinds of weapons (they even invent some) and they cried out mightily to the Lord for help in battle.  The Lord hears them, and they defeat the Lamanites, 3,043 to 279.
9:16 And it came to pass that I did arm them with bows, and with arrows, with swords, and with cimeters, and with clubs, and with slings, and with all manner of weapons which we could invent, and I and my people did go forth against the Lamanites to battle.  
9:17 Yea, in the strength of the Lord did we go forth to battle against the Lamanites; for I and my people did cry mightily to the Lord that he would deliver us out of the hands of our enemies, for we were awakened to a remembrance of the deliverance of our fathers. 
9:18 And God did hear our cries and did answer our prayers; and we did go forth in his might; yea, we did go forth against the Lamanites, and in one day and a night we did slay three thousand and forty-three; we did slay them even until we had driven them out of our land.
9:19 And I, myself, with mine own hands, did help to bury their dead. And behold, to our great sorrow and lamentation, two hundred and seventy-nine of our brethren were slain.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the next chapter, Zeniff wises up and stockpiles weapons in case the Lamanites come back.  Until then...
Posted by Philip Wells at 12/08/2012 08:00:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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 02 December 2012Mosiah 8: A Seer is Greater Than a Prophet
After King Limhi is done with his speech, he makes Ammon tell everyone what his people have been up to since the time that Zeniff left the land of Zarahemla.  Ammon agrees, and throws in King Benjamin's speech as a bonus.
8:1 And it came to pass that after king Limhi had made an end of speaking to his people, for he spake many things unto them and only a few of them have I written in this book, he told his people all the things concerning their brethren who were in the land of Zarahemla.
8:2 And he caused that Ammon should stand up before the multitude, and rehearse unto them all that had happened unto their brethren from the time that Zeniff went up out of the land even until the time that he himself came up out of the land.
8:3 And he also rehearsed unto them the last words which king Benjamin had taught them, and explained them to the people of king Limhi, so that they might understand all the words which he spake.
After all of this, King Limhi dismisses his people and the "multitude" go home.
8:4 And it came to pass that after he had done all this, that king Limhi dismissed the multitude, and caused that they should return every one unto his own house.
The fun is only just beginning, though.  Lemhi brings out the plates of his people and makes Ammon read them.
8:5 And it came to pass that he caused that the plates which contained the record of his people from the time that they left the land of Zarahemla, should be brought before Ammon, that he might read them.
After Ammon finishes reading the plates, Limhi asks him if he can interpret languages. Ammon says he can't (although at this point he might just be getting tired of reading plates and giving speeches).
8:6 Now, as soon as Ammon had read the record, the king inquired of him to know if he could interpret languages, and Ammon told him that he could not.
Then King Limhi launches into another story.  He explains how he sent a search party to find Zarahemla, but they couldn't find it.  They got lost in the wilderness for many days and came upon a land of many waters, which was covered with the bones of men and beasts.  Among the ruins they found 24 golden engraved plates, breastplates of brass and copper, and rusty swords.
8:7 And the king said unto him: Being grieved for the afflictions of my people, I caused that forty and three of my people should take a journey into the wilderness, that thereby they might find the land of Zarahemla, that we might appeal unto our brethren to deliver us out of bondage.
8:8 And they were lost in the wilderness for the space of many days, yet they were diligent, and found not the land of Zarahemla but returned to this land, having traveled in a land among many waters, having discovered a land which was covered with bones of men, and of beasts, and was also covered with ruins of buildings of every kind, having discovered a land which had been peopled with a people who were as numerous as the hosts of Israel. 
8:9 And for a testimony that the things that they had said are true they have brought twenty-four plates which are filled with engravings, and they are of pure gold. 
8:10 And behold, also, they have brought breastplates, which are large, and they are of brass and of copper, and are perfectly sound.
Then King Limhi asks him again if he can translate, or if he knows anyone else who can.  Ammon says that the King of Zarahemla could probably do it.  He's a seer, after all.
8:12 And I say unto thee again: Knowest thou of any one that can translate? For I am desirous that these records should be translated into our language.
8:13 Now Ammon said unto him: I can assuredly tell thee, O king, of a man that can translate the records; for he has wherewith that he can look, and translate all records that are of ancient date; and it is a gift from God. And the things are called interpreters, and no man can look in them except he be commanded, lest he should look for that he ought not and he should perish. And whosoever is commanded to look in them, the same is called seer.
8:14 And behold, the king of the people who are in the land of Zarahemla is the man that is commanded to do these things, and who has this high gift from God.
King Limhi was happy to have found a seer.  Both Ammon and Limhi agreed that seers are far superior to prophets.  You see, a seer is both a revelator and a prophet.  (Of course, Joseph Smith was all three).
8:15 And the king said that a seer is greater than a prophet. A seer is greater than a prophet. He is a revelator with a Divine gift that is greater than all others.
8:16 And Ammon said that a seer is a revelator and a prophet also; and a gift which is greater can no man have, except he should possess the power of God, which no man can; yet a man may have great power given him from God.
Seers are handy to have around, because they reveal stuff, tell secrets, light up hidden things, make things known, and make other things known that couldn't have been known otherwise.  It's a hard job.
8.17 By them shall all things be revealed, or, rather, shall secret things be made manifest, and hidden things shall come to light, and things with are not known shall be made known by them, and also things shall be made known by them which otherwise could not be known.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The next 13 chapters of Mosiah are known as "The Record of Zeniff."  They are a flashback that covers from the time Zeniff left Zarahemla to the time of King Limhi. I'll get to all that in the next exciting episode of the Book of Mormon.
Posted by Philip Wells at 12/02/2012 07:46:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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1 comment:
 TWF said...
Oh, that's my problem. I've been wasting my time on unprofitable prophets. I need to find a seer! :-)
Sun Dec 02, 08:23:00 PM 2012 
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