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Social Security and Driving Licence Number Required Before Baptism?
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offlineirishshane
Social Security and Driving Licence Number Required Before Baptism?
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Jan 3 14 5:47 PM
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So in one of the groups on FB that I am a member of there was discussion about Elders lurking on page to get info in DFing members. A bit like what we reckon happens here (Hi Elders).
Anyhow someone made this comment: i have a ? why do they take ur ss# and driver license # when u get baptized?
To which someone replied: What??? I don't know what congregation you went to *******, but they never asked for that anywhere I went to.
Their reply: i had to give them my ss# and dl# when i was wanting to get baptized. and its in ******* missouri
and someone else added: ....... that has been in the past few years, the ss# stuff. they do not say it is required, but it is supposedly a "protection" for us that they have all of our information for security in their member cards.
Is this happening everywhere? When did it start and seriously what is the real reason they want this information?
Sorry for the stupid message layout. Yuku playing games again with me.
"The highs never match the lows......" - Ronan O'Gara (ex Munster rugby and Ireland player. Racing Metro coach)
status offlineRaine
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Jan 3 14 6:00 PM
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What the actually F
I mean, am I the only one that got the identity theft vibe? That info is more than enough to unwittingly fleece money, credit, security, get past passwords.
I might be getting a little to conspiracy theorist here. But that is a horrendously huge ass red flag, to me.
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status offlineirishshane
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Jan 3 14 6:06 PM
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Same here raine. I am actually shocked at the audacity of it.
If I was a current witness and they asked for this info I'd laugh in their faces and tell them to do one.
However i know my Mom would trustingly hand it over. This shit freaks me out and I'm not the most paranoid person out there as those who are friends with me on FB know (I let it all hang out. lol).
"The highs never match the lows......" - Ronan O'Gara (ex Munster rugby and Ireland player. Racing Metro coach)
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Jan 3 14 6:19 PM
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Holy Bat Crap Batman! Really? Seriously?
Wow ....... that's a new one. I've not heard of that before. I'm also shocked at the audacity to ask that kind of thing. Specially as I grew up in the heady 70's when the WBTS was getting local groups of elders to conjure up fake names and fake record cards ... in case they were stolen by the authorities and used for evil purposes!!!!!!
I'd ask my folks but they're never keen on questioning their religion. The older they get ... the more defensive they've become. It's certainly not something I'd like my folks to do ... but in saying that ... they've got their medical care signed over to my older jdub bro and one or two scaly elders from down here where we live. Must be a sign eh!!!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineirishshane
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Jan 3 14 6:48 PM
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If it was just the one person who posted it I'd probably have brushed it off as someone being a bit "funny" but when it was verified by someone else with somewhat of an explanation it made me take notice.
What's the "protection" from? I really want to see the official reason because I can't imagine why anyone would buy this shit and i'd love to see what the official wording etc is for this.
"The highs never match the lows......" - Ronan O'Gara (ex Munster rugby and Ireland player. Racing Metro coach)
status offlineRaine
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The thing is. At least with my family. They are willing to follow the letter of the WBTS law. No questions asked. If they are willing to cut out close family. Die instead of receiving a blood transfusion. I honestly can't see them so much as blinking an eye at being requested for such sensitive personal information. Especially if given some Armageddon 'safety' reason.
From what I can tell receiving that info from the members wouldn't be that hard at all. And that is so scary to me.
I Ctrl+Alt+Deleted My Religious Programming
"It is better to live one day as a lion, than a hundred years as sheep"
I would consider myself foolish if I listened to someone who refused to listen to me.
status offlinewhytebyrd2
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Jan 7 14 12:21 PM
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Could this be an example of the "obey even if it sounds unreasonable" instructions given in recent Watchtower?
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
t.s.eliot
status offlineKefka6
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Jan 11 14 7:21 PM
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The hell??? Seriously. How is this not causing any red flags to the JWs. What happens if you refuse to give them your ss#. This is way to controlling.
status offlineCacky
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This is so over the top that I'm questioning if it's real. What would they want with that information other than for theft purposes?
status offlinehalf banana
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Jan 15 14 10:09 AM
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Is it to make a first claim before the family get to your assets if you have left them in your will to the blood-sucker Watchtower organisation?
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Irish...Thanks for mentioning it's not operator error; because I've had nothing but problems of late with Yuku.
When I should disappear for days and perhaps a few months...it's because I'm no longer playing the game for having to give out more information then they already have.
I'm not going paranoid but I do understand that it's not that important for having to give more away- when they already have enough. Enough is enough.
It's going to be interesting...what I find funny; understanding Ronnie has to protect himself, I don't do PM's but I've no problem posting my personal address for communication. Can't do.
If it's true that they want personal information before baptism...that's a joke.
"There is no separation of Church and State." "Sooner or later when you lay with the Devil, you will fuck."
Last Edited By: Linda Jan 27 14 6:10 AM. Edited 1 times.
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Good Morning, Cathy.
Not sure what it's about other than control of the masses - and we are the 'masses'; according to them.
What we have to do in the "Land of the Free and Brave" aka: USA for just getting a driver's license/SS number...it's insane but we keep playing by the rules. So when I read these stories ...thinking it's more insanity placed upon insanity...I also understand how religion and politics are bedfellows for control.
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Jan 27 14 6:38 PM
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half banana wrote:
Is it to make a first claim before the family get to your assets if you have left them in your will to the blood-sucker Watchtower organisation?
haha ... nice one HB!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlinetinybluedot
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AndriaSyxx wrote:
half banana wrote:
Is it to make a first claim before the family get to your assets if you have left them in your will to the blood-sucker Watchtower organisation?
haha ... nice one HB!
That's actually not as ridiculous as it sounds. Someone, somewhere in the org has found that it would be useful in some way, and that the benefits of asking for it (demanding it really, who is going to refuse whilst answering their baptism questions) outweigh the risks (bad publicity, some baulking and not going through with it). Either that or it didn't even occur to them that they haven't the RIGHT to ask for it, and that there could be any bad consequences whatsoever. Whichever it is, it stems from these jackasses really believing that they have some kind of authority and moral imperative.
"Which to you, is more awe inspiring; that you were created for the sole purpose of worshiping a dictator in the sky who forbids the joys of life? Or that you and I are the product of billions of years of evolution through natural selection, with each molecule making up the human body having once been a part of a distant star through the process of stellar fusion, having erupted from a supernova to one day allow each of us to sit and ponder our own existence. We are the universe becoming self aware. You can keep your gods, i belong to something greater."- Levi Herbert
status offlineGurgi
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It'll be interesting to see if others are reporting similar stories of being asked for personal info before baptism.
'Do a barrel roll!' - Peppy Hare, Lylat Wars - N64
'Andross wont have his way with me!' - Fox McCloud, Lylat Wars - N64
status offlineCacky
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Feb 26 14 11:31 AM
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I'm still finding this hard to believe. Is the org going to go into identity theft?
status offlineirishshane
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I'm not sure about this being an organisational directive as no one else has said it happened to them. Just this one person that I quoted in the OP.
The [person is adamant it did happen to them so would be interesting to find out why.
"The highs never match the lows......" - Ronan O'Gara (ex Munster rugby and Ireland player. Racing Metro coach)
status offlineCacky
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The only thing I can think of is, maybe they fear people leaving the org, moving away, and coming back in as undercover apostates, in order to get info to pass on, so they will keep a database to prevent that from happening. That's the only thing I can come up with.
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Mar 1 14 2:10 AM
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Because the Borg lies for control, i'ts often difficult knowing what to believe.
status offlinewingnut
Sounds like some wacky congregation's rule to me #19 [-]
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Mar 3 14 4:17 PM
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That sounds like one of those congregations where the there are a few power hungry elders over stepping their authority and making their own rules. I joined the Witnesses in the early 70's and was active until 1999 so I'm not up on their latest rules from the Society. Nevertheless, I'm sure they're still advocating that congregation members strive to get their kids baptized as young as possible. Since most 10 and 12 year olds aren't going to have an SSN and none are old enough to drive this requirement strikes me as strange. Now that I come to think of it I wouldn't have been on sites like this one since 1999 if I didn't consider their rules strange. smiley: roll
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WIFI in Kingdom halls
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offlineseth69
WIFI in Kingdom halls
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Jan 14 14 3:17 AM
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I heard now that the cult are thinking of putting wifi in Kingdom halls(in UK) for the bro to use may be iam a bit late on this one..but all the crap about the internet lmao its so stupid,
status offlineirishshane
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and circuit assemblies and district assemblies will be able to be streamed into the congregation meaning it's not necessary to hire big stadiums thus cutting down costs.
"The highs never match the lows......" - Ronan O'Gara (ex Munster rugby and Ireland player. Racing Metro coach)
status offlinealexia
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Dang, the new generation has it so easy now. I was born in the late '70 and had to endure thousands of hours of dull, dry, mind numbing "meetings", assemblies and conventions. Now WiFi. Imagine having a smartphone strategically placed somewhere in your book bag/pocket/coat. We got away with so much during the conventions especially (flasks, 420, etc) I'm sure the young people today can figure this out.
status offlineRaine
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If I was still a JW. (And this is obviously hypothetical because I don't actually know how I would behave in those circumstances). And they had wifi in the KHs. Let's just say my phone would be my best friend and I wouldn't have to rely on my imagination to keep me entertained.
I imagine that area, where not a lot of people sit and it's just that bit out of the way for the roaming guard brother to make to many passes by. Or at least you can see him coming. Would become the highly sort after sitting area.
I Ctrl+Alt+Deleted My Religious Programming
"It is better to live one day as a lion, than a hundred years as sheep"
I would consider myself foolish if I listened to someone who refused to listen to me.
status offlinenonjwspouse
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Jan 14 14 2:27 PM
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However, you can be sure those wifi routers show exactly the internet sites that are visited and who they are visited by! Also the routers can be set to block all sites except the approved ones.
So don't fall in a trap if you are fading and connect to the KH wifi...... Just sayin..
status offlinealexia
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nonjwspouse wrote:
However, you can be sure those wifi routers show exactly the internet sites that are visited and who they are visited by! Also the routers can be set to block all sites except the approved ones.
So don't fall in a trap if you are fading and connect to the KH wifi...... Just sayin..
Ha ha, what was I thinking?? Evening without WiFi though you can still access the internet though your smartphone, at least in most areas.
I would have loved to be able to text back and forth during the meetings.smiley: roll
status offlineRaine
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nonjwspouse wrote:
However, you can be sure those wifi routers show exactly the internet sites that are visited and who they are visited by! Also the routers can be set to block all sites except the approved ones.
So don't fall in a trap if you are fading and connect to the KH wifi...... Just sayin..
hahaha yeah good point. So no visiting exJW sites then.
@Alexia
I was thinking that too. And besides having your own 3G 4G connection. There are plenty of apps that don't need a connection to use. That would be 50 time more engrossing than what is being said from the stage. Clear a few levels of Angry Birds. Take out some aggression with some Fruit Ninja. Heck sync the kindle with the kindle app before leaving home and tadaaa! discreetly enjoy your current novel.
Wow, now I'm really envious. I wish we had smart phones when I was going.
I Ctrl+Alt+Deleted My Religious Programming
"It is better to live one day as a lion, than a hundred years as sheep"
I would consider myself foolish if I listened to someone who refused to listen to me.
status offlinematitalica
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Jan 14 14 7:24 PM
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just imagine the fun you could have if you were able to hack their wireless connection and the governing boobies saw what was being streamed off their internet.....midget porn, the popes weekly address to catholics, cures for v.d. fifty shades of grey and stupid animal tricks.
status offlineirishshane
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or two girls one cup - NSFW (seriously don't even google it. It's baaaaad!)
"The highs never match the lows......" - Ronan O'Gara (ex Munster rugby and Ireland player. Racing Metro coach)
status offlinewingnut
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They remind me of where I work. They blocked most internet sites some years back so we could only access a couple news and weather sites. Now ten years later and everyone has smart phones or brings their tablets to work so they can browse on their own time. That has to drive companies crazy that they can't keep us under their thumb anymore. Publishing companies would fall into that category. smiley: wink
status offlineCee Cee
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WiFi in the KH...given the Organization's paranoia, I'm voting on their being able to spy on the bros.
status offlineSwingLifeAway
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Do you know how much porn I woulda watched?
-Dave
“When I was 5 years old, my mother always told me that happiness was the key to life. When I went to school, they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. I wrote down ‘happy.' They told me I didn’t understand the assignment, and I told them they didn’t understand life.”
- John Lennon
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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My parents have had 'permission' to use their home phone for an 'audio link' for meetings. It's the 'permission' bit that gave me a few chuckles. It's always about permission ... or whether jdubs 'are allowed' to do something ... or see something ... or in this case ... connect to something!
Nonnie's right ... be wary of big brother watching on faders!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineKefka6
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I find this funny and sad. I mean are jw's really this desperate to make people stay??? And besides do they really want to compete with an invisible power that actually works?????
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Leaked Instructional Videos On Disfellowshipping and Sheperding A Suicidal Person
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offlineirishshane
Leaked Instructional Videos On Disfellowshipping and Sheperding A Suicidal Person
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Feb 13 14 2:41 PM
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As the title says. Cedars has been busy. Watch these quick before Watchtower get them removed
http://jwsurvey.org/cedars-blog/doubts-over-organizational-solidarity-as-disturbing-video-on-handling-suicide-is-leaked
"The highs never match the lows......" - Ronan O'Gara (ex Munster rugby and Ireland player. Racing Metro coach)
status offlineirishshane
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and the first funny version:
"The highs never match the lows......" - Ronan O'Gara (ex Munster rugby and Ireland player. Racing Metro coach)
status offlinewhytebyrd2
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Those vids were scripted but showed the sanctimonious attitudes of the elders exactly as they are. I must admit, I couldn't watch them through to the end. I did watch the next vid about a 3 year old giving a talk based on the hanging of Mordecai and all the talk of raping the queen and slaughtering people ............. perfect subject matter for a 3 year old to be reading aloud. Disgusting.
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
t.s.eliot
status offlineirishshane
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Feb 13 14 4:34 PM
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The videos are meant to be instructional and so are scripted to the eyeballs but there is so much wrong with them.
At least JW's now know to cry a bit and say I failed Jehovah and they should be in the clear and not get DF'd.
As for the suicide video! Ok 1st scenario in it is the wrong one but seriously who on leaving an upset, suicidal female in a room asks "will I turn the light out"?
It's so cold and mechanical.
"The highs never match the lows......" - Ronan O'Gara (ex Munster rugby and Ireland player. Racing Metro coach)
status offlineKBG
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Feb 13 14 4:46 PM
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whytebyrd2 wrote:
Those vids were scripted but showed the sanctimonious attitudes of the elders exactly as they are. I must admit, I couldn't watch them through to the end....
WB, Me to, its like watching reality TV, but nobody is hot.
Shane, Tho painful, still good to know how the society is progressing, err, eehhh, maneuvering.
status offlinewhytebyrd2
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I agree Shane, there IS so much wrong with them. Maybe they should be shown to mental health professionals to help them understand why their JW clients are such a mess. The suicide one should be shown to suicide prevention people. The JW's are disconnected from reality as is painfully shown in the vid of the 3 year old. In the comments all there is is praise and adulation but no one asks WHY a 3 year old was given that subject matter???? Well.........it was asked..........but deleted from comments. Zombies all of them!
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
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Yep. Agreed Sharon.
Someone made the point that it was interesting that suicide was used as the subject matter for one of the videos. Could be a lot with suicidal thoughts/tendencies in the organisation. Certainly mental health issues were rife from what I saw when I was a JW.
Yes the video of the little 3 year old is just plain wrong. Between the school overseer and the child's parents couldn't one of them at least not see this was material not suited to children? What actually goes on in their brains?
"The highs never match the lows......" - Ronan O'Gara (ex Munster rugby and Ireland player. Racing Metro coach)
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I started to watch the first video last night but found i couldn't watch the video through to the end (the funny version was much more watchable for me). At this point couldn't watch the other videos as i get horrid feelings due to seeing stuff like this related to JW's in suits and Kingdom halls... too many memories. It's also creepy seeing the level of mind control they are under and knowing i was exactly like that at one time.
As for sheparding a suicidal person..
"Elders are not to give out numbers for suicide hotlines or encourage proffessional help. Instead they are to give bible based lectures, urge the uttering of incantations and hand out homework assignments."
Words fail me.
It's not hard to see why the JW org would not welcome 'help' from proffessionals but it's go nothing to do with the safety and mental well being of the ill human. It has everything to do with protecting their money making scam and mind control mechanisims.
Thanks for highlighting these things, irishsane.
Edit: It makes me wonder how my brother (an elder in a congregation) ,having felt suicidal himself, feels about such 'loving guidance' from the GB...?
'Do a barrel roll!' - Peppy Hare, Lylat Wars - N64
'Andross wont have his way with me!' - Fox McCloud, Lylat Wars - N64
Last Edited By: Gurgi Feb 14 14 10:21 AM. Edited 1 times.
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Gurgi, there simply are no words. I read Cedar's article and that was all I could manage. I don't want to put their filth in my mind anymore. There are just no words for how reprehensible the GB is for implementing the use of these videos within a "Christian" congregation.
“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.” ― Marcus Aurelius
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I am studying to become a LMFT (Licensed Marriage Family Therapist)...I watched the videos and have so much to say, but don't quite know where to start. I guess when I open my practice, I'll know where to find a plethora of clients...I've heard the cult strongly discourages its members from seeking outside help, is that true or does it depend congregation to congregation?
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lovefool,
Yes, it is true. Speaking frankly with 'worldly people' is not possible, for those who have strong JW faith. Seeking professional help outside the organization means admitting to oneself that not all answers can be provided by God's own chosen representatives. . This is an uncomfortable, dissonant position, and many believers will avoid at all costs.
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It does just make one speechless. There is so much wrong with these things that I wouldn't know where to start!
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"She invited me to see her aquarium in her apartment. I wonder how many times she's used that line"
Ohhhhhhhhhh myyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy! What a crock of the proverbial! The acting is dangerously NOT good enough for an Oscar .... it's badly scripted ... acted ... and the content is so sanctimonious and holier-than-thou. Just wow. I'm rather glad I have a 'treacherous heart'.
The saddest part of the first 'movie' ... is that the average jdub WILL believe and trust in what the elders have to say. I notice they didn't ask the highly personal intimate questions as some are renowned for. Poor 'Robbie' is quite clearly terrified that he will lose his family because of his sinful actions. It's badly scripted, acted and presented ... but it's something that happens to young ones all the time.
A good find there Shane ...........................................
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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videos taken down now but if you have dropbox then PM me for a link.
"The highs never match the lows......" - Ronan O'Gara (ex Munster rugby and Ireland player. Racing Metro coach)
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New Revised Bible
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offlineseth69
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Check 1 Corinthians ch 6 v9 in the normaL NWT and it goes on about men who lie with men ect now in the New revised version(which are due to be deliverd to congregations soon and is also available on pdf download via JW leikes) it directley says "Homosexuals"now i can be outspoken on stuff but to re word the bible is another thing..but hey who am i to question!!!! THING IS I DO QUESTION AND THATS MY NATURE AND ALL WAYS WILL BE,AND NO MAN WILL CHANGE MY THINKING TO QUESTION THINGS AND THEN TELL ME I CAN NOT,THATS WHATS CALLED OBEIDIANT IGNORANCE AND I AM NOT THAT...xxxx..Seth xxxxx
Last Edited By: seth69 Oct 10 13 2:52 AM. Edited 2 times.
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My mother is so excited over this new bible. They got a copy on Sunday during their special talk. Uggh...
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So did they just paraphrase as in your example?
Or are there any changes with real doctrinal significance?
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I've done a bit of a sweep of the "revised" NWT over the past few days (I say "revised" because, for the most part, it is as much of a revision as the 1985 revision was of the original 1950 version). Frankly I was expecting a lot more.
The text generally reads the same in most places. There is no change to the clunky English and there is no attempt to capture the Hebrew rhythm in poetry. Except for the list of changes and additions announced at the Annual Meeting (i.e., "ass" is now "donkey," a few more additional uses of "Jehovah," etc.) there is little less to add here. Unlike what one of the speakers promised in saying this would be 'an entirely new translation,' it is, for the most part, a rather boring and unsurprising update.
The updating made to the vocabulary seems to be lifted from the choices made in the New Revised Standard Version, released in 1989. Except for the minor change to words regarding Jesus' being "impaled" (which are unique to the NWT historically and etymologically incorrect rendition for language about the crucifixion), all the other "modern" word choices seem to be shamelessly copied from the NRSV and its list of changes it made to the RSV vocabulary over 20 years ago. All the new language is what is found in all the major versions in one way or another, so the NWT offers a stale update of a presentation.
It is also very inconsistent in its update, never uniform. For example, while claims are made that the update is meant to be modern and conscious of renditions sensitive to inclusive gender, the first place this should occur, Genesis 1:26, still reads as it did before. "Let us make man in our image" is still offered unlike the modern "Let us make human beings in our image" as found in the NRSV, the New Jerusalem Bible, and the 2011 revision to the official US Catholic translation, the NABRE. This may be the one place where there is little to debate that the word "man" refers to humanity, yet the GB misses the mark, right out of the gate too! It is a "pick-and-choose" of NRSV vocabulary lifts that the NWT presents after this point.
As I stated it is, for the most part, a rather boring update. But there are three changes which don't make sense unless the Governing Body is about to spring a couple of new teachings on the unsuspecting JW population.
The first is the change from Sheol and Hades to "grave." Instead of strengthening the current view of JW eschatology it weakens it. Outside of the NRSV, this is the current usage and understanding of these words in Christian churches and among Jews. The NABRE, for example, uses "netherworld" for Hades almost always throughout the New Testament. Readers of the NRSV (which uses Sheol in the OT and Hades in NT) already understand that this means the common grave.
The second is the change of "soul" to read as it does in context, almost identically with the way it is rendered in the NRSV. In Genesis 2:7 the updated NWT reads like the NRSV, NJB, and the NABRE: "The man became a living person." The rest of the usages of soul through Scripture are similar to the major Christian churches and Judaism (the modern JPS Tanakh version reads likewise).
The last is John 17:3. Several Watchtower publications and many discourses and studies throughout the years have been based on the older NWT reading: "This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God." For decades the leaders of the JWs have ridiculed Christians for translating this verse the way the updated NWT now reads: "This means everlasting life, their coming to know you..." Since the religion of the JWs is a scholastic exercise void of spirituality that has been based on the older NWT reading, it is now interesting to see how the GB's choice to render this like Christendom's religions do will change things.
Except for the overuse of the Divine Name, the updated NWT is basically a poor reflection of modern translations and an inconsistent attempt at modern language usage. The translation is still stale and very hard to read. Compare it with the "literal as possible, free as necessary" NRSV and see how it is supposed to be done. In fact, JWs will be embarrassed should they compare their "new" Bible with either it or the other revised translations and see how smooth and easy-to-understand they are by comparison (the new NIV is another example).
The one thing this "revision" has got me wondering is: We will see the Governing Body do a major change over to more traditional Christianity like the Worldwide Church of God did? Their Bible is practically the same to those previously "incorrect" versions. If their Bibles are now almost the same in rendition, does this signal that they are about to make their doctrine just as similar? The GB did recently tell the JWs to follow their instruction even if it flies in the face of human reasoning, as they know it.
Hmmm, we shall see.
Last Edited By: CorpusChristi Judah Oct 16 13 6:25 PM. Edited 1 times.
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International Correspondence Schools/International Bible Students
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offlinebirdwoman2
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During my readings and investigations into the early beginnings of the socio-religio-political movement that the Jehovah’s Witnesses emerged from, I had read a copy of a letter that Clayton J. Woodworth had written while he was in jail during 1918 – along with six others of the Watch Tower Society’s leaders.
For those of you who may be unfamiliar with who Clayton J. Woodworth was, there is quite a bit of information available on the internet concerning this man. Not only was he one of the founding editors of the Golden Age magazine, he also laid claim to being one of the authors of The Finished Mystery – the book that was published by the Watch tower Society in 1917 that landed Rutherford and his cronies in the Atlanta jail on sedition charges.
But back to Woodworth’s letter.
At the end of the copy of Woodworth’s letter, there is this note:
Since this letter was typed by Brother Clayton J. Woodworth in 1918 it was quite old and fragile and since the photo copy that was sent to me was hardly legible, with much effort this copy was made. Bro. Woodworth became the editor of The Golden Age when it was started in 1919. He was one of the founders of the International Correspondence Schools from Scranton, Pennsylvania. Each week end he would go home by train to Scranton to see his family and take an interest in the ICS. He was faithful to Jehovah right to the end. The one who copied this letter knew him personally
.
I have tried to confirm this claim, that Woodworth was a founder of the I.C.S., but have had little success with turning up any solid evidence that he was one of the founders of that school. Many of the sources that I read about Clayton Woodworth referred to him as a “text book writer and editor for a textbook company”.
What I have found, though, leads me to believe that there is some truth to the note attached to the end of Woodworth’s letter. In trying to uncover Woodworth’s connection to the International Correspondence Schools, I discovered that he was not the only Bible Student with ties to the I.C.S.
George H. Fisher, the other author of The Finished Mystery, was also closely aligned with I.C.S.
When Rutherford decided to go ahead with publishing the Seventh Volume of Charles Russell's Studies in the Scriptures, it was Woodworth and Fisher who were employed to be the 'ghost' writers of The Finished Mystery - George Fisher was responsible for the book of Ezekiel and Clayton Woodworth was the writer for the Revelation section of the book. Apparently, both of these men had been compiling notes and information for Russell to be used for the seventh volume before he had died in 1916. The Finished Mystery was published in 1917 and it was the material in that book that was ultimately responsible for charges of sedition being laid against the leaders of the International Bible Students.
Some history about the International Correspondence Schools:
The Correspondence School started in 1891 as a Question and Answer column in the pages of the mining journal titled "Colliery Engineer and Metal Miner" published by Mr Foster. This column was a response to the in depth tests required of miners and inspectors by the "New" Pennsylvania Mine Safety Act of 1885.
Note -
*Charles Taze Russell had interests in coal companies. Contrary to what has been part of the Russell myth, he was involved in many business concerns, coal mining being one of them. At the time of his divorce trial in 1910, it was revealed that Russell had interests in Black's Run Coal Syndicate and the US Coal and Coke Company.
**The Zion’s Watchtower was being published by Russell’s Tower Publishing Company by 1881. (first issue – 1879. Watch Tower Society is formed in 1881 as well as Tower Publishing).
***Russell’s Millennial Dawn books (later re-named Studies in the Scriptures in 1903/4) began to be published in 1886.
*In 1903, Russell started publishing a Question book for his Millennial Dawn series – the six volume set is re-named Studies in the Scriptures. This set of books is referred in some sources as ‘Bible Textbooks’.
The I.T.C. merged the Colliery Engineer School of Mines, School of Mines, Correspondence Schools, and the International Correspondence School as the International Correspondence Schools of Scranton, PA under the new International Textbook Company.
Several Scranton correspondence schools had textbooks printed or published by I.T.C. as direct subsidiaries of the School The Institute of Business Science and as their own entities the Woman's Institute of Domestic Arts & Sciences.
This sounds similar to how Charles Russell ran his publishing empire as well. Russell had a holding corporation called the United States Investment Company and another company that he called Tower Publishing that ‘sold’ publications to the Watch Tower Society. However, the Society did not do their own printing until 1919. Up until then, the one (and maybe the only) company that did the Society printing was the W.B. Conkey Company. If the International Textbook company did printing for the Society, I have yet to find evidence of that but I believe it is possible.
By 1905, Thomas Foster had run the correspondence school into bankruptcy. Several sources attribute this to Thomas’ bad business practices. However, the International Textbook company and the International Correspondence Schools rose from the ashes when a group of Scranton Pennsylvania bankers and businessmen got together and re-organized the companies, appointed a board of directors (that included Thomas Foster), and set the course of the school which would take it into a hugely successful profit-making enterprise for those who had invested in it.
It is at this point that it is possible that Clayton J. Woodworth became “one of the founders” of the International Correspondence School. I have yet to find a list of those who invested in the school at the time of its bail-out.
(*if anyone lives near to Scranton Pennsylvania and would like to do a little research trip, it would be fantastic – send me a pm, please)
**In 1906, the Berean Bible Teacher’s Manual was published with Clayton J. Woodworth as its author.
***In 1908/9, the Watch Tower Society moved to Brooklyn, New York.
****In 1910, the International Bible Students Association was formed.
George H. Fisher, the other prominent Bible Student who was also involved with the International Correspondence School, is listed in this program put out by the I.C.S. for its 15th year anniversary ceremonies that was held in 1906. Fisher is named as the editor of the school’s newsletter – The I.C.S. Messenger.
*The Bible Students published a newsletter called the Bible Student Messenger.
George Fisher was prominent in the running of the Watch Tower Society, served on its board of directors, and he was also largely responsible for the commentary on the book of Ezekiel in The Finished Mystery.
George Fisher was the person who made a complaint about Judge Rutherford visiting a burlesque show. Fisher wanted the Judge disfellowshipped for his behavior but, before he could see the process through, Fisher died.
Clayton J.Woodworth, loyal to the Society to the end, did much of the writing for The Golden Age magazine and the correspondence school influence is apparent in some of the articles. For example, the Feb. 18, 1920 issue of The Golden Age (pg 339) has an article on the bee keeping industry and at one point in the article the author gives a plug for correspondence schools:
Mail order courses in beekeeping are also to be had for the benefits of those unable to attend college
I wonder how many of the colporteurs for the Society also were salesmen for the International Correspondence Schools and how many of the articles written in the Golden Age were directed towards recruiting students for the International Correspondence School studies in addition to recruiting students for the International Bible Students Association.
What exactly were the ties between the Watch Tower Society and the International Correspondence Schools? And between the International Bible Students and the International Correspondence Schools/International Textbook Company?
Is that why the study format for the Watch Tower literature was adopted way back in its early beginnings? Because it was intimately connected to a company that sold a home study education system? Was the ‘Bible Study’ (Studies in the Scriptures) just another home study course that was sold for/by people with the same business interests?
A few more notes about old Chuckie Russell and some random other tidbits:
*Russell also had business interests in a company called Brazilian Turpentine. Did you know that turpentine is a by-product of the paper making industry?
*Russell also had interest in a company called Pittsburgh Kaolin Company. Kaolin is a clay – a white clay that is used in the paper making industry. The clay is used as filler and as a substance to coat the paper to make it more printable.
*In addition to being a “textbook writer and editor” and an editor of a 'religious/political magazine, C.J. Woodworth owned a shipping company. That must have been handy for moving all that literature around that was being put out by both the Watch Tower Society and the International Textbook Company.
*Much of the literature that was printed during the early part of the 1900s for the Society was printed by a company called W.B. Conkey Company. Not only did they handle some of the large book orders for the Watch Tower, they also printed the book Angels and Women that was published by a Bible Student and promoted by the Watch Tower. The Nov. 22, 1922 issue of The Golden Age printed a speech that was delivered by W.B. Conkey in support of trade unions - at a time that The Golden Age magazine was still pro-Socialist and pro-Zionist.
*The Watch Tower Society did not have their own printery until 1919. That same year that they were almost bankrupt – the same year that they were bailed out by ‘an outside donor’. The same year that they started publishing The Golden Age magazine.
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Last Edited By: birdwoman2 May 18 13 11:07 AM. Edited 4 times.
status offlineCacky
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Very interesting.
status offlinenonjwspouse
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Birdie,
I absolutely love how much information you dig up and provide to us so generously. You do so much work, and we get to benefit . Thank you.
status offlinewatchtowerwidow
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Wow,
In the 1960's, as a 16 year old, newly married JW, I took classes for high school from ICS.
I have a "diploma" around here somewhere.
LOL....who knew?
status offlinewhytebyrd2
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I also took correspondence classes in high school from ICS to make up for my messing around my Sophomore year (I wanted to graduate with my class and not be on the 5 year plan smiley: tongue) I had a full class load during the day + a couple of ICS classes + all that 'studying' for meetings and service. What a busy bee I was back then and I managed to stay on the honor roll too! My high school was the one that recommended ICS (or used the service), not JW's. Still, very interesting! The Watchtower from it's beginnings seems to be 'thick as thieves' with corporate America.
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
t.s.eliot
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I think that this is quite ironic.
For all the 70's an 80's, ICS did their major advertising on their matches that they provided free to all the corner stores. Cigarette lighting matches... ! I used a lot of those back in the day.
Yes, I lit a lot of ICS matches in my time. (lol)
Their tag line was " You can be a (insert trade here)" (implies life success to follow)
Compare to the WTBTS : "You can live forever on a paradise earth" (implies life success to follow)
Both are manipulators, and sellers of false hopes to the masses. I'm having another AHA moment here. :-)
status offlinebirdwoman2
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Fallgirl - Yes, I find this kind of research interesting. Some of the things that a person can dig up at times! Glad you are enjoying it.
Aw, Nonnie, thank you. I enjoy doing this - it is for myself of course, but it makes it even more rewarding when people like you appreciate it.
WtWidow - That is pretty interesting. Married at 16? Wow.
I waited until I was 17 to get married. smiley: laugh But I didn't marry a JW like you did.
But, like both you and Sharon, I took correspondence school classes when I was about the same age - 16. I was pregnant and staying at a maternity home for unwed mothers at that age. The classes I took were through the Saskatchewan government - I don't think they had anything to do with I.C.S. (eh - but I could be wrong...).
So, you have a diploma from I.C.S., huh? That is interesting - the only 'diploma' offered to those early Bible Students was an "ordained minister' card. I guess it was like a mail-order Minister School in those days. You bought the 'Bible textbooks' but, unlike the other correspondence/mail-order studies available, you didn't even have to pass any requirements to get your degree/ordained minister certificate! You just either gave a donation or pledged to become a salesman for the same Bible Study course and in exchange - Voila! - you were a minister.
I have been reading The Golden Age magazines from 1919 and onwards and in those early issues of the magazine, you can see advertisements for the Studies in the Scriptures. The set of Bible textbooks were sold as a home study course in bible knowledge. Marketed to the same masses that were consumers of many of the products that the magazine was directed to. It is as though the Bible study series were the 'religious arm' of a larger network of business concerns directed at people's desire for knowledge.
The historical literature that is archived about the I.C. S. reveals that it was a very successful business concern and made substantial profits. The school sold far more study courses than were ever finished but, they marketed them that way - as valuable reference books even if you didn't finish the courses - and many didn't. The way that the Studies in the Scriptures was marketed, a person didn't even have to 'pass' any testing or such to get their 'degree'. Go to archives.org and download one of those early volumes of The Golden Age magazines and find the advertising for the Studies in the Scriptures to get a sense of how it was marketed and then, check out the study sections in the magazine - they had an 'Advanced Bible Study' question section and then a 'Juvenile Study' section. Sort like that same thing that Thomas Foster had started his textbook enterprise on - that question column in his mining journal directed towards the working class people.
The Watchtower from it's beginnings seems to be 'thick as thieves' with corporate America.
They were corporate America. And continue to be. Just think, Sharon, if you wanted to make money in certain industries - like....say...the paper making industry...or...shipping - what better way to launder money than through a 'non-profit' front - a religious front. Have you ever thought of who has financial interest in the paper makers that the Watch Tower Society buys paper from? Remember...old Russell owned companies connected to that industry. Who stands to profit from the sale of books? The paper industry. Shipping companies. Etc. Taken in the view of a 'society' being a closed group of men with business concerns, it is easy to see through the religious lie that we have been subjected to for so long.
Ah, Locutus, a light bulb moment, huh? Sweet. I love those.
I remember those matches - yellow and red and black. Lists of careers on the inside that you could chose to be - I remember 'hairdresser' being one of them. I thought it was a bit ridiculous. Becoming a hairdresser through a mail-order course? Heh. I guess not any more ridiculous than people buying into the 'become a minister' that the home bible course offered. (with free teacher too! right in your own home!)
Yes, the selling of hope - hope as a commodity.
smiley: smokin
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Society's Website Value $$$$
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Society's Website Value $$$$
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The following information about the Society's official website - jw.org - was obtained from statscrop.com.
Jw.org has 14 years old, it is ranked #1,876 in the world, a low rank means that this website gets lots of visitors. This site is worth $13,140,963 USD and advertising revenue is $2,324 USD per day. The average pages load time is 1.506 seconds, it is very fast. This site has a very good Pagernk(5/10), it has 84,882 visitors and 619,639 pageviews per day.
Website worth - $13,140,963 USD
Advertising Revenue - $2,324 USD per day
($848,260 annually)
For comparison, the Mormons - The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints official website - lds.org.
Lds.org has 15 years old, it is ranked #2,360 in the world, a low rank means that this website gets lots of visitors. This site is worth $8,019,434 USD and advertising revenue is $1,353 USD per day. The average pages load time is 1.411 seconds, it is very good. This site has a very good Pagernk(7/10), it has 66,822 visitors and 360,839 pageviews per day.
Website worth - $8,019,434 USD
Advertising revenue - $1,353 USD per day
($493,845 annually)
And The Seventh Day Adventist official site - adventist.org.
Adventist.org has 17 years old, it is ranked #77,088 in the world, a low rank means that this website gets lots of visitors. This site is worth $358,600 USD and advertising revenue is $50 USD per day. The average pages load time is 1.304 seconds, it is very good. This site has a very good Pagernk(6/10), it has 6,691 visitors and 13,382 pageviews per day.
Website worth - $358,600 USD
Advertising revenue - $50 USD per day
($18,250 annually)
Now. For fun. Let's check out the Society's nemesis.
The Vatican. The Holy See. vatican.va.
Vatican.va is ranked #12,699 in the world, a low rank means that this website gets lots of visitors. This site is worth $579,109 USD and advertising revenue is $1,552 USD per day. The average pages load time is 0.531 seconds, it is very good. This site has a perfect Pagernk(8/10), it has 142,674 visitors and 413,755 pageviews per day
Website worth - $579,109 USD
Advertising revenue - $1,552 USD per day
($566,480 annually)
Woohoo! the Society is raking more money in from their website than the Pope is! smiley: tongue
*to be fair, tho...the vatican has several other websites that branch off of vatican.va.... that I didn't bother to check stats on.
And, let's check out the 'official' website of the Catholic Church - catholic.org.
Catholic.org has 18 years old, it is ranked #28,773 in the world, a low rank means that this website gets lots of visitors. This site is worth $956,036 USD and advertising revenue is $125 USD per day. The average pages load time is 5.009 seconds, it is very slow. This site has a good Pagernk(3/10), it has 18,564 visitors and 33,415 pageviews per day.
Website worth - $956,036 USD
Advertising revenue - $125 USD per day
($45,625 annually)
And there ya have it.
The Society's website worth in comparison to other religious organizations' websites.
For an organization that encourages its followers to stay off the internet, it sure has maximized its position in cyberspace to show a healthy profit that exceeds other religions.
And, now you know why the Society prohibits any competition from within its ranks as well - they have good reason to squelch the internal competition - it is worth big bucks to them.
I just wonder who is paying the advertising bucks to the Society...or is that an internal transference of funds - from one of the Society's corporations to another...?
smiley: smokin
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Last Edited By: birdwoman2 Sep 4 13 7:57 AM. Edited 1 time.
status offlineirishshane
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Will make sure not to visit their site unless I can't help it.
hate to think that I am helping them get money.
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status offlineJoe Magarac
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The numbers aren't actual revenue but rather the notional value of page hits etc.
That includes hits from folks like us that gain them nothing.
Very unlike the same sort of ratings for purely commercial websites.
What the numbers really tell you is the relative importance between organizations of their "official" websites.
The Vatican website is mostly informational without much in the way of direct apologetics let alone fund appeals, though there are plenty of other Roman Catholic websites for those things. Whereas the Watchtower website is nearly the official one big everything website for the religion.
The Vatican website is not really competing head to head with the Watchtower website.
Last Edited By: Joe Magarac Sep 7 13 3:17 PM. Edited 1 times.
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I don't think this is money they are actually getting because I doubt they sell advertising space on their site.
It doesn't surprise me that they would have so much traffic as it's the only site JW's are allowed to view. Also, I think dubs now go to the site to download literature and other information, so it makes sense that they would get so many visitors.
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Evidence needed that any j.ws receive government welfare/handouts etc.?
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offlinecomposer2005
Evidence needed that any j.ws receive government welfare/handouts etc.?
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I have been told that NO j.w receives any form of government welfare/handouts etc.?
Can any please provide credible supported evidence otherwise?
Thanks
status offlineFiguringitout20
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That's not true. Plenty of JWs rely on welfare. My family went through a period of being on food stamps when I was a kid after my dad lost his job. The org never said a word about not relying on government welfare, etc. That's what is so unreasonable about the mandate to not vote. JWs cannot vote on how govt programs are set up, but can take advantage of them. Makes no sense.
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Can I use your Post as part of my evidence against this idiot?
I also hope others will also come forward to discredit this idiot!
Cheers!
status offlineFiguringitout20
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Go ahead. I hope it helps!
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Hi Composer I don't know if I have welcomed you to the forum yet. If Not - Welcome!
Just wondering if you could let us know the evidence you are after.
If anecdotal is sufficient. Are you looking for instances of welfare use, that could be deemed unwarranted.
For example. A JW collecting welfare but could otherwise fully support themselves if they were not prejudice to door knock over earn a living.
While I was in over 17 years ago. I knew a heck of a lot of full time pioneers that lived on unemployment and the generosity of others. Rather than actually accept a job and earn their own way.
The thing is the laws have changed and in this country since then. It is so much harder to collect unemployment and remain unemployed if a person is capable of working. So I can't say for certain that they are still working the system. - The way they did back then.
I have heard that a person that I used to consider a friend back then. Who collected unemployment to full time pioneer now collects a carers pension. Even though she doesn't actually live with the person she claimed to be caring for. But like I said. I have heard that and it's not something I know first hand.
Or are all instances a viable example for you?
Like disability. Or aged pension.
Example my Father is an Elder and collects a disability pension and my mother collects a carers pension.
My parents are getting on in years and my father. While intelligent. Forgets a lot a which leads to him getting angry, irritated or has panic attacks.
Often suffers from crippling depression. And my mother looks after him but also she herself suffers from crushing anxiety. They have both worked hard for many many years.
In this case I believe the collection of welfare is warranted. And I would hardly call it living. They get very little money to survive on.
(Or at least that was their status when we talked 2 years ago).
But I have seen many people collecting government payments. While I was in. We often lived in the poorer areas.
I know my aunty would go around to others in the congregation to tell them what she thought they would be entitled to and how to work the system to get the most money they could out of the government. (She thought of her self as the master of the con. Her husband, my uncle was also an elder and they both fulltime pioneered while paying off a house and building another.) As I grew up I met many more people with the same mentality. "This wicked system is not long for this world. Use it to get Jehovah's message out."
If you are looking for hard evidence. Well that's private information and (at least in this country) religion isn't relevant to the information to collect welfare. I doubt actual Correlating statistics
could be found. As far as evidence goes it comes down to hearsay. (as far as I am aware.) And may hold no weight at all, for your purposes.
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I remember an article, back in the 80's or 90's that asked the question if it was ok for a brother to work only part time in order to pioneer and receive welfare and the answer was yes, that he was doing good to society by pioneering so it was ok to receive welfare in order to be able to pioneer.
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We used to get medicaid and WIC when I was in. My husband was working, but didn't make much money or have insurance. I chose to stay at home with the kids, because I felt that was what the Society wanted me to do. I'm ashamed of it now, but yeah, I was encouraged to get on it, especially by my mother.
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eewx2 wrote:
We used to get medicaid and WIC when I was in. My husband was working, but didn't make much money or have insurance. I chose to stay at home with the kids, because I felt that was what the Society wanted me to do. I'm ashamed of it now, but yeah, I was encouraged to get on it, especially by my mother.eewx2...I firmly believe that any able-bodied adult who can hold a job, but wont (such as JW's who "pioneer"---totally useless activity--- and collect government benefits while ignoring their own scriptures that speaks against "a man who does not take care of his own")...is completely wrong. But in your case, your husband was working and, no doubt, doing the best he could. What you received was services to supplement your income, because it did not provide everything needed to take care of your family. Under those circumstances, and especially because children were involved, you deserved healthcare and extra for food for your kids. In fact, your husband was paying taxes, which entitled you to it. Please stop feeling badly about it, honey...you did what you had to do at the time to take care of your family. Hug
edit: I have taken early retirement, and collect the pitiful pittance that is Social Security. I need to accept Medicaid and "food stamps", and yesterday, for the first time in my life, I stood on line at a food bank to get free groceries. I never imagined it coming to this, but I have worked for many years and paid a lot in taxes....so we do what we have to do to get by....smiley: ohwell
Last Edited By: cangie 5 days ago. Edited 2 times.
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Hello all!
Many thanks for your contributions!
Cacky, is it possible to locate & provide me with that article?
I may as well mention that this a_hole of a supposed j.w is claiming that they are a perfect organisation, No drug users, no divorces, no welfare, no crime, no paedophiles, no homosexuals, no war mongers etc. etc. you no doubt get the picture he portrays?
I also make it known that this a_hole claims to be a preacher for them, demands everyone else strictly obey the bible but -
Drum roll -
He himself openly admits he is in violation of e.g. Matt. 7:1 i.e. STOP Judging! . . . . however his occupation is a literal Judge!
Thanks again
Last Edited By: composer2005 5 days ago. Edited 1 times.
status offlinecangie
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Composer2005...I remembered that there was a post about the JW's attitude towards accepting welfare so I looked it up. Check the first category..."Helping and Discussion Board," and on page 3 is the topic "No part of the world yet living on the dole". A lot of people told the stories of their families, or other witnesses they knew being on welfare, so apparently it wasn't as rare as "The Judge" would have you believe. Plus I have never heard of a JW achieving the status of judge. Don't judges have to run for office (as in, be involved in politics) and be voted into office? As we all know, voting is a BIG no-no for JW's
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This j.w Judge's real name afaik is Wilson Cole.
He posts at isgodimaginary.com
http://isgodimaginary.com/forum/index.php/topic,53062.msg648355.html#msg648355
status offlineCacky
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I wouldn't be able to find the article, I just remember reading it in the '90's and remember an older sister saying she was rather shocked at it.
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Thanks anyhow, everyone who contributed I am extremely grateful.
This Wilson Cole scum is still trying to deny it, unless we start naming specific names?
Last Edited By: composer2005 A day ago. Edited 1 times.
status offlineFiguringitout20
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For something that is not just anecdotal info, go to www.wol.jw.org. This is the JW's official online Watchtower database. Type in "government aid" in the search box and within those results is a link to a 2009 Watchtower article "Aid from Government", which contains the following blurb:
"Many countries offer social programs or services to help those in need of material support. There is nothing wrong with a Christian’s receiving such assistance—provided that he qualifies. Speaking truth with our neighbor would rule out giving false or misleading information to governmental authorities in order to receive public assistance."
Whether or not every member follows the latter part will just lead to more anecdotal evidence, but at least the first part officially confirms the JW org supports members receiving welfare.
Last Edited By: Figuringitout20 A day ago. Edited 1 times.
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How about how the WTBTS and all of religion has lived on the "corporate dole" for centuries? They pay no taxes and yet they have lobbied in courts for their preferences. This is true of Catholicism as well as the JW's. In the 40's and 50's the JW's were happy to take part in legal process to absolve their members from saluting the flag, yet they do not pay into the system that gave them the ability to challenge such a mandate in the court of law.
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Candace Conti case - Respondants Brief to Watchtower Appeal
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Candace Conti case - Respondants Brief to Watchtower Appeal
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At the following site top of the page you will find a pdf link to the most recent brief by Rick Simons for the Conti case.
http://jwleaks.org/candace-conti/
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This is the dark heart of the Heineken Cup - Stuart Barnes in Thomond Park January 2006
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http://youtu.be/BFJ65Og3A2o - Was at this match with an amazing finish. You will see Cian (red hat) behind the women in this clip 6:50-6:57. G'WAN MUNSTER !!!
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Wow! I read every page of this document. I can't thank enough for bringing it up here. What a terrific attorney she got. The WT's lawyer, on the other hand looked lame. Considering the multi-millions they stand to lose, it's no surprise they've brought in Associate Counsel from HQ for the appeal?
Kisses and Kudos for introducing me to jwleaks. It's content is stunning. I was so engrossed that nothing else got done around here since I got my first peak at that site.
Again, thanks
Cee Cee
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Wow, I read that the Watchtower Org claimed "no relationship" to Candice, therefore they were under no obligation to protect her. A child member of a congregation and they claim "no relationship!!" What happened to their saying they are a worldwide brotherhood (and sisterhood)??!!
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I started reading it and it's making me completely sick to my stomach. What is wrong with these people? It is just common sense and human decency to speak up. I don't think we'll ever know the true number of victims of these types of crimes within that organization. How do they sleep at night? You can bet those individual elders would never let their children near these molesters---but yet any family without an elder in it is prey. ---And they have the nerve to call my parents and tell them they are "in danger" from me because I no longer believe their crap? who is really in danger in that organization. Every day I count my blessings that I got out. Not always easy but definitely the best decision I could have ever made.
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when looking up convention dates I ran across this article
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offlinenonjwspouse
when looking up convention dates I ran across this article
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http://www.topix.com/forum/city/dalton-ga/TT73GSCDCD4SSUPER
For the next three weekends, Dalton, Georgia will be the regional Convention headquarters for SPANISH-SPEAKING members of the WATCHTOWER CULT OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES. Three 3-day weekend conventions will be held at the NW Georgia Trade and Convention Center during the last two weekends of June and the first weekend of July. Different Spanish-speaking Congregations of Jehovah's Witnesses from Georgia and surrounding states are assigned to each weekend convention.
Thanks goes to local government officials at the City of Dalton and at Whitfield County Government, and officials at the Dalton Area Convention & Visitors Bureau, and officials at the NW Georgia Trade and Convention Center for all working together with the WATCHTOWER CULT's Convention Department in Brooklyn, New York, in order to bring these and even more Watchtower Cult conventions to Dalton.
The reportedly large discount off the listed rental rate which enticed the WATCHTOWER CULT to Dalton was made possible only due to the MILLIONS of TAX DOLLARS provided to the NW Georgia Trade and Convention Center by the City of Dalton and Whitfield County Government.
The EXACT DISCOUNT and the EXACT RENTAL RATE given to the WatchTower Cult are not known because that "public information" apparently has never been made public by local government officials.
In 2010, local government Officials at the City of Dalton and at Whitfield County Government cut a deal with the Brooklyn, New York worldwide headquarters of the WatchTower Cult of Jehovah's Witnesses to turn Dalton into one of the Cult's regional convention headquarters --- holding approximately 4-6 Circuit Assemblies each Spring, and another 4-6 Circuit Assemblies each Fall, plus holding approximately 5-6 larger District Conventions each Summer.
Since 2010, the local media has on mutiple occasions quoted local government officials, officials at the Dalton Area Convention & Visitors Bureau, and officials at the NW Georgia Trade and Convention Center ALL PRAISING the DEAL made with the WatchTower Cult.
However, I have yet to find a single media article which details the SPECIFICS of the DEAL cut with the Cult by local officials. One media article vaguely indicates that the taxpayer-subsidized Convention Center is giving the WatchTower Cult a heavily discounted rate on its multiple conventions --- that is, assuming the Cult is paying anything at all.
Those familar with the operations of the WatchTower Cult's Convention Bureau in Brooklyn know that in addition to negotiating FREE or NEAR-FREE rental of convention venues, the Cult also seeks to extract CASH KICKBACKS of motel taxes from local governments.
Are Dalton and Whitfield County taxpayers NAIVE enought to believe that the WatchTower Cult is requiring members from surrounding states to drive long distances to Dalton UNLESS there is some FINANCIAL INCENTIVE to do so?
In October 2008, the HUNTSVILLE TIMES revealed that the WatchTower Cult was RELOCATING its Huntsville conventions to Birmingham in 2009 because Huntsville was ONLY offering the Cult a 71.5% discount on the venue rental rate, and ONLY kicking-back $6000.00 CASH for EACH convention. Apparently, the City of Birmingham had offered an even better rental rate and even larger kickbacks.
Is it not time that Dalton and Whitfield government officials DISCLOSE the specifics of the deal they made back in 2009-10 to get the WatchTower Cult to come running to Dalton? Is it not time that the local media reported those specifics to local voters and taxpayers? Apparently, that will happen ONLY if local voters and taxpayers FORCE local government officials and local media to so so.
Guardian
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Whitfield County TAXPAYERS and GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS might also be interested in knowing what the WATCHTOWER CULT teaches SPANISH-SPEAKING Citizens and Citizen-WannaBees about our local, state and federal governments.
In the mid 1930s, the Watch Tower Society started forbidding Jehovah's Witnesses to salute the American Flag, or recite the Pledge Of Allegiance, or stand for the playing of the National Anthem, or engage in any other patriotic activity. Jehovah's Witnesses were taught to tell the news media, courts, and other outsiders that the American Flag is a false idol, and doing any of the aforementioned activities is performing "worship" to a false idol. This "public relations" reasoning is actually the LEAST of all the reasons that Jehovah's Witnesses refuse to engage in any patriotic or political activities. This secondary, ancillary reasoning was developed because the WatchTower Society did not dare to have its Jehovah's Witness members running around repeating for the news media and courtroom judges the PRIMARY doctrine on this subject, which would outrage the American public.
What Jehovah's Witnesses intentionally do NOT publically explain to non-JWs is that the Watch Tower Society teaches Jehovah's Witnesses that the Government of the United States is governing ILLEGITIMATELY. The Watch Tower Society teaches that the Government of the United States is under the control of Satan the Devil as his partner in Satan's universal rebellion against GOD. The Watch Tower Society teaches that GOD granted humans the authority to rule the earth only for a period of 2520 years -- starting in 607 B.C. and ending in October, 1914 A.D. The Watch Tower Society teaches that in October, 1914, the authority to rule the earth reverted back to GOD, and that He then formed a heavenly government to rule the earth -- with Jesus Christ as King.
The Watch Tower Society teaches that in 1919 that Jesus Christ selected the Watch Tower Society as his sole earthly representative of that heavenly government. The Watch Tower Society teaches that the Government of the United States (as well as all other governments), is its' enemy, because it has failed to surrender governmental power that rightfully belongs to the Watch Tower Society.
These are the ACTUAL reasons that the Watch Tower Society forbids its Jehovah's Witness members to support the government of the United States -- no voting, no holding political office, no professing citizen loyalty via the Pledge of Allegiance or standing for the National Anthem, no joining the military to protect the United States, etc.
Jehovah's Witnesses do not profess to be "pacifists". They claim to be "neutrals". JWs consider themselves to be "citizens" of the government supposedly formed in heaven in 1919, and that they are only "resident aliens" of the United States. The Watch Tower Society teaches that Armageddon will occur "soon", and at the Battle of Armageddon, that Jesus Christ and his heavenly armies will destroy the armies and governments of the United States, and of all other countries -- including all people who did not convert to the Jehovah's Witnesses. Jehovah's Witnesses look forward to the day when they will rule the planet.
Guardian
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Here are some recent examples of REAL WORLD Jehovah's Witnesses acting out what they were taught by the WATCHTOWER CULT. Are these really the things that Dalton TAXPAYERS want their tax dollars promoting?
Interested Readers should google the name "GRETA HAWKINS" -- to read June 2012 newspaper articles about a Jehovah's Witness public elementary school Principal who just recently refused to allow her students to sing Lee Greenwood's "GOD BLESS THE USA" at a recent graduation ceremony. Hawkins has also attempted to do away with her school's custom of daily reciting the Pledge of Allegiance and singing "AMERICA THE BEAUTIFUL".
Interested Readers also should google the name "LEROY McKELVEY" -- to read newspaper articles about a "devout Jehovah's Witness" who tased a U.S. Marine and others at a September 2011 Jets-Cowboys football game attended by past President George W. Bush and other public officials present to honor the 10th anniversary of 9/11.
Interested Readers should google the phrase "JW Manager entered the apartment without permission and took down the Flag" to read about a Jehovah's Witness apartment building Manager who refused to allow tenants to display the American Flag after 9-11.
To read about all of the above on one single webpage, Google the names "Armando Perez", "Tyler Templeton", and "Bruce Cooke"
-- ALL IN THE SAME SEARCH -- to read about a dozen or so similar incidents involving "Jehovah's Witnesses".
status offlinenonjwspouse
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Interestingly this same site from Dalton had this article soon after about the Condi case. I missed it before.
http://www.topix.com/forum/city/dalton-ga/TVAIDN1ITB289SGQH
Dalton has three conventions scheduled this summer.
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Of course this was probably posted before the "new light" about 1914.
"The Watch Tower Society teaches that GOD granted humans the authority to rule the earth only for a period of 2520 years -- starting in 607 B.C. and ending in October, 1914 A.D. The Watch Tower Society teaches that in October, 1914, the authority to rule the earth reverted back to GOD, and that He then formed a heavenly government to rule the earth -- with Jesus Christ as King."
Makes me wonder how the Borg is going to reveal or back track their teachings as to the prophecy in Daniel and the tree. It is so convoluted as it was but I suppose they will come up with something.
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Good to see some publicity about the truth behind the org.
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Those familar with the operations of the WatchTower Cult's Convention Bureau in Brooklyn know that in addition to negotiating FREE or NEAR-FREE rental of convention venues, the Cult also seeks to extract CASH KICKBACKS of motel taxes from local governments.
I don't think I've heard this allegation.
-Dave
“When I was 5 years old, my mother always told me that happiness was the key to life. When I went to school, they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. I wrote down ‘happy.' They told me I didn’t understand the assignment, and I told them they didn’t understand life.”
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Just how does Jehovah communicate through the Governing body?
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offlinehalf banana
Just how does Jehovah communicate through the Governing body?
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Just how does Jehovah communicate through the Governing body?
This is a serious subject and not to be taken lightly as my article will show. So how the heck God does god actually communicate with his people? The inside story can now be revealed!
Naturally this involves a lot of praying... an awful lot of prayer is to be found at the meetings of the governing body. An awful, awful lot. But I’m sure it will come as a big surprise to many of you as to how in fact they go about it.
You might think that after a special prayer one of them hears something in his head which tells them the answer?............. Nope, try again.
They pray and a disembodied voice emerges from the ether and gives them the low down on what to do. Well no, that of course would be too Biblical so they are not keen on that method.
Perhaps the wife of Brother Hugbottom has had a dream and they interpret it? Answer no, again far too Biblical. God it seems has other ways to communicate his divine truth to mortals on Earth nowadays. (I have to interject here to ask an important aside... are the Governing Body really mortals anyway... when actually they are demigods? Makes you think doesn’t it?)
What really happens at “new truth” meetings is this: after an extra long and special prayer, they pull up their shirt fronts and expose their navels to each other. It’s quite amazing isn’t it! (It is a secret and little known Masonic rite called omphalodrosomancy) Of course this is done behind closed doors and is known only to those on the inner circle. I have it on the most trustworthy authority that this is what occurs but I‘m sorry, I cannot reveal my sources as yet. The next step is for each member to find sufficient fluff (or lint as Americans prefer) from their navels of the man on their right hand side and each contributes to a small clump in the middle of the table around which they are sitting. It is of course so small that a magnifying glass is used to examine the results.
Once when Brother Rutherford was doing it on his own, he came up with what looked like a chariot wheel so he thought that’s it! Jehu, the mad charioteer and his chum Jonadab. You see it’s not literal; it’s what is suggested by the little heap. Low and behold the idea stuck and immediately it solved the problem of having to deal with more than 144,000 JWs all hell-bent on going to heaven. ”Let’s have a bunch of second-raters who don’t do heaven and call them Jonadabs,” Rutherford said; and it came to be.
This almost miraculous navel-crud examination also explains how the “generation of 1914” failure was completely turned around into the raging doctrinal success that we know and love today.
One GB member who was personally anxious about the 1914 doctrine and whose wife had recently gone off the boil, had been playing a lot with his navel. It must have got infected. The result was that at the next “new truth” meeting he had an unusual amount of pus and scabby bits to contribute to the pile. What followed was a striking example of divine providence; for even without the magnifying glass, the answer immediately became clear to the entire GB round the table. They saw that the little pile of fluff and crud was overlapping! It was a sign from Jehovah! When the Bible said “the generation”, what it really meant to say was “overlapping generations”...obvious really!
So now at last we have the inside knowledge and the brothers do know deep in their hearts, that sometimes the Churches get things right, as they say there: God works in mysterious ways!
And by the way, every last word of this statement I can guarantee is as true as the very Watchtower itself.
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Well it makes as much sense as anything else the gb have pulled out of their asses..... Oops I meant navelsimage
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...Which reminds me why there is so much mental illness amoungest the JW religion! The WTBTS keep preying on the weak and yet we are the damned for speaking out.
To answer your question...it's because people continue believing the bullshit that they are allowed to get away with.
Don't know how involved you are- it takes a lot of effort from others that hope seeing a change.
I have absolutely no respect for the WTBTS...None! They are hateful and controlling because they get away with it - and it's a constant struggle dealing with the legal.
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They can have their god Jehovah, they can have their govering body...they can have all the insanity of religion they want. And although I go through times with my JW family - they can never have me back!
Thinking about this topic further; good topic - for many talking about such would land them in the psych ward.
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Because the WBT$ invented Jehovah(TM), he communicates to the GB the same way 'Action Man' communicates to Pailitoy.....the same way Mickey Mouse communicates to Disney.
The GB are communicated to by the lawyers who are Jehovah's(TM) real channel.
Regards Paul (MDA - Mentally diseased apostate)!
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
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The fact of the matter is that Big J obviously does not communicate at all with the GB, if he did he would get his predictions right and they would not have to lamely resort to "new truth" every few years.
Yes punky, if, as a religion, you think your myth is better than other people’s myth--- you need an army of lawyers to defend that position. I would add that as well as lawyers, accountants are also needed to communicate the doctrines of the corporation whose motto is "Money First". (But don't tell the 8 million punters!)
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Serious question- What documentary, if any, covers the workings of the governing body, the politics of the organization?
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KBG wrote:
Serious question- What documentary, if any, covers the workings of the governing body, the politics of the organization?
I think the only source is from crisis of conscience, where they just voted and need a 2/3's majority to change decisions. They looked at the Bible, then chose individually and that became doctrine.
It appears that several members are more alpha or strongarm the others into their way of thinking, just like any other human panel/jury.
Jehovah does not communicate at all through them or they'd have proof of a exemplary record. Instead they say "they are but imperfect men" and "the light gets brighter".
JW's have most angles covered to stop you thinking too hard about it.
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They are a corporation. Having been in business my entire life I know a little about the way corporations work. It is not nice. The alphas eat the betas. They change rules (beliefs) with the times and what is going on outside. They try to second guess (tell the future).
The GB cannot be any different. They are imperfect men with their own agendas trying to influence for power or money or prestige while playing a game within a set but slowly changing system of rules.
Two easy examples are, the blood issue and treatment of DF'd members.
It is a power play nothing else by a limited elitist group of so called leaders.
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Yes it is all about power play and rank. As I suggested having ditched the traditional JW little flock “old truth” they are heading for self appointed demigod status! How transparently vain...
The most sacred of all religious cows is the Cash–cow. This animal provides for its owners a privileged life style. Where there is money there is power, this means they possess the power to alter people’s values and world viewpoint and thereby to control their lives. The Watchtower like most religions; is a belief which gives existential comfort for the needy. They do a good job of filling millions of ordinary people with hope and like all spiritual things it is an ever unprovable hope of heaven or paradise.
The cash-cow is the corporation itself, built out of vulnerable people’s religious sentiment. The WTBTS think; why kill this beautiful beast when it both enriches us the owners and yields something positive for our customers?
Are there any replies to this problem?
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About the religious cash cow..
Somehow I think even the Pope believes he is the real appointed of God. I actually quite like this Pope.. so far.
The 8 men in the GB probably also believe they're appointed of God. Sheltered from the real world, no debts, no credit worries, no rent worries, no food/ heating bill worries- no "oh fuck its Monday" worries, they even live where they work so no "shit I'm late for work/stuck in traffic/my boss is a wanker" worries.
They have a nice insulated blanket shielding them from the outside world, and they probably believe its all from God and really do thank him everyday.
There is only 1 on there with a family. Just one! They don't know how to raise kids or even probably talk to them. What would happen to your brain if you just got surrounded by yes men all day?
If they goto any meeting they are guaranteed applause and lots of podium time. I used to love being on the podium, its a real head rush. Rock star lifestyle but the drugs are applause and constant adulation free food and easy life.
I think they really believe in Jehovah. They really believe in the Org is the rightful channel.
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Dive - It's good too see you continue posting and helping.
I'm thinking your can add to how I learn - knowing it's not easy for you either.
There are days when I wish for never having started my recovery. Although it's been an interesting journey - it does get stressful at times...and I've gained so much respect for those that continue the work; and thus I continue too.
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Nevermind, if I were a rock star I would think drugs and rock and roll were the greatest things since sliced bread (and possibly better). Likewise the GB, individually and collectively, adores being believed as God’s channel. They love Jehovah as a requirement of office.
There are two possibilities here. One is that the appointment to a position of command gives the individual high status and applause if they carry out the tasks expected for their role. It is not necessary to be a believer to do this, all that is required from any functionary, including the rock star; is to perform.
The second possibility is that one could simply go through the motions, get results and cynically not believe.
With GB members they are chosen by their outstanding loyalty to the WTBTS which would indicate that they are actually believers. Nevertheless, as Ray Franz fatally found, there are many discrepancies between the ideals and the realities of being in the governing body. Not the least being the absurdity of saying that god directs them and not being able to show any evidence whatsoever that it is the case. They may pray but they vote according to the demands of the success of the corporation above all else. This is the first and last consideration.
All they can offer to the flock is that they have ‘fed’ them. They regurgitate some re-cycled garbage in the Watchtower study article and then remind the reader “who is it who has brought you these good things?” They seek applause. They cultivate and demand loyalty, they use fear and indoctrination and it works. Nearly eight million of them! As we know it does not benefit the human spirit of progress, science, self-reliance and compassion. It does however benefit the glory takers; the members of the GB.
I do have a sneaking suspicion that with Masonic roots, it is possible that something beyond faith lurks in this organisation but on the evidence available at present, I have to agree that the GB are ‘true believers’...... on a roll....... but delusional.
status offlineCee Cee
#13 [-]
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Feb 7 14 10:30 AM
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My most recent dose of Watchtower palabra came earlier today. Seems a daily text sometime this week included information on the WT's 'old' teaching about 1914 once being the date that Jesus would come and the anointed would 'go to heaven' and admitting that they 'got that wrong'. [This was always presented as the year that Jesus sneaked back to earth, chose a Christmas-celebrating-pyramid-following-religious-group-that-claimed-Pastor-Russel-was-the-faithful-and-discreet-slave as the only one having the truth.] That text was presented to me as "See the Society apologized."
Huh? Does that sound like an apology to you. [Well, it it's better than the nonexistent WTBTS apology to the families whose children were sexually molested by the Elders which it protects.] I wondered out loud why it didn't include a "we got it wrong" statement about 1975, which elicited a denial. I reached for my copy of "Life Everlasting in Freedom on the Sons of God". (Suddenly there was static on the phone line--which I could not hear but which prevented further conversation on that topic.) Then I was told of their experience parting forever from some Aussie Witnesses they'd shared a cruise with back in 1966 with a hearty wave and "See you in 1975".
While they were so talkative, I asked what happened in 1919. That apparently was when the anointed who died immediately went to heaven. As for the anointed who were already dead, they could have been resurrected too. For where that is in the bible, well "its all in Revelations 8 - 12", or something. Then I got the obligatory "light grows brighter" lecture with the importance of "sticking close to the Organization". I suggested that these changes in doctrine were bringing the WT closer to Christendom. (More static. This time I could hear. It sounded like crinkling foil.)
When the conversation continued it was about the March edition of Our Kingdom Ministry which I was told with some pride is "only for baptized Jehovah's Witnesses" which states
'2014 could be the last year there is a Memorial since the end is so near'
or words to that effect. Could we having another Here-We-Go-Again moment?
Other tidbits from other sources:
The growth of Witnesses in France and Germany is coming mostly from English (foreign language) groups, not natives. The growth in the USA and presumably the UK is coming from foreign language speakers. Your thoughts?
Oh yeah, the point: It's always the "light grows brighter" even when that verse has nothing at all to do with changing doctrines. Usually that is followed with a line or two about "even the apostles didn't get it right--they thought the end was in THEIR day". *eyes roll* How would you handle that?
Cee Cee
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#14 [-]
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Feb 7 14 11:44 AM
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The Watchtower was based on a lie (that the paradise would be complete on Earth by 1914) which was based on a deception (the book of Daniel was prophecy written after the event!) The Greek scriptures also got the arrival of the king and kingdom wrong in the first century, a total failure. Why does no Christian seem to note this? So the whole of evangelical Christianity engages in the trance like fixation that “It is near!” That well known cry of the doomsday cultist.
It’s as plain as the nose on my face: ---if he hasn’t come by now---he ain’t comin’ at all.
I blame the RC church which collected the Bible texts and made them sacred for the purpose of furthering Roman influence. One third of humanity fell for this extravagant con-trick. The Bible is not holy, only in peoples mind is it so.
Fundamentally it is a collection of exotic ancient texts, many from the Bronze age, from Babylon, Egypt, and the Greek classical world, addressing the politico-religious needs of those in power in the land of the Canaanites. They are just texts written by mere mortals.
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Feb 8 14 12:39 AM
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Cee Cee wrote:
'2014 could be the last year there is a Memorial since the end is so near'
Also 2014 could be the last year that pigs don't fly
.
status offlineJoe Magarac
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Feb 9 14 12:42 PM
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The GB make shit up and say it's from Jehovah.
There is also the possibility of self deception by some of them. I think the evidence points to Fred Franz really believing the 1975 thing.
But considered as a group, it really is that simple.
I speculate they go through the formality of praying first.
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Feb 13 14 5:17 AM
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Joe Magarac wrote:
The GB make shit up and say it's from Jehovah.
I’m certain That Fred Franz believed whole-heartedly. That’s the best you can do with faith since it’s not a matter of actually knowing something...all you can do is believe and then try and convince others of your spiritual fixations. And Fred was fixed like a limpet. His language was high blown rhetoric which some religious punters loved to hear, “From our understanding of the Holy Scriptures we are led to the inevitable conclusion that 1975.....”
I felt that he thought his announcement of the end of the old world was to have been his swan song, his moment of glory in the role of being God’s spokesman for the outworking of Divine purpose.
I think he was amazed and bewildered that God didn't listen to him!
“Bible prophecy” never does translate into real world events and like all JW imaginings: nothing happened---except Franz and his followers looked even more stupid than they did before.
My thought is how on earth do they imagine Big J speaks to Watchtower HQ? The evidence from their perpetual mistakes shows clearly he doesn’t! What supernatural process could they point to say that God is revealing information to them? I’m sure a JW would be at a loss as well... but come on; if God is giving them vital truths how are they claiming he does it?
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
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Just how does the big J communicate #18 [-]
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Mar 5 14 4:32 PM
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Faithfully and shh....discretely, so discretely that even the Governing Body doesn't pick up on it when he's communicating.
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Mar 7 14 4:19 PM
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The majority of Christian (and other money-making) faiths make money because they can. If you want to make money and not have to pay tax on it ... start a religion. If you want to make money and have a group of faithful followers behind you ... start a religion and make it 'different'. If you want to make money, not pay tax and have a group of faithful followers behind you ... start a religion, make it 'different' and remember to toss in an invisible all-seeing all-knowing higher power. Add the word 'god' (with or without a capital G) ... say that you can interpret what 'he' (again with or without a capital H) has to say .................. and hey presto. One custom made ... ever evolving ... money making venture ... under the seemingly spotless label called 'religion'.
Ta dah!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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