DIU posts and comments

Sun Feb 04, 06:45:00 PM 2007 
 Randy Bowman said...
I just wanted to say thanks for this list...I'm writing an essay, and was looking for examples of God killing people, especially in battle, directly. I'm contrasting Him to the gods in Homer's Iliad, who never actually kill anyone. The Assyrians will do nicely, I think. Thanks!
Fri Feb 16, 01:57:00 PM 2007 
 sal said...
"Deep down everyone knows God exists, but they want to sin and not feel guilty about it, so they try to convince themselves that God doesn’t really exist and that they won’t be punished for their sins."
ummm... no. This is simply incorrect. I (like many) know that there is no god. and yet, I do feel shame for things I have done in my life.
I have the ability to feel shame for things I did in the past because as I have matured I can see that some things I did in the past were not in my or someone elses best interests. I do not call these things I have done "sins" as the word is not part of my vocabulary. The word "punishment" is in my vocabulary, punishments comes from other people.
The motivation to keep from continuing to do things that are not in my own or other people's best interest is simply that life is better when all living things and all the things that they relie on are treated with respect & understanding. It is a very strong motivation, and all that is necessary.
sal
Tue Feb 27, 09:29:00 AM 2007 
 Unbeliever said...
It's great to have a resource such as this, I'm just wondering why it took so long for someone to do the work required. I was going to do it myself, but now all I have to do is double-check your count, which I'm fairly sure is as accurate as you could make it. Thanks Steve!
Wed Feb 28, 06:43:00 PM 2007 
 Anonymous said...
This site is awesome!
Oh no, I am in helllll!
What a lovely man. No seriously, if this "God" would actully consider sending someone to eternal damnation for saying that..He shouldn't be submitted to, he should be resisted.
Thu Mar 01, 01:22:00 PM 2007 
 stuart said...
Any religion is evil, when it expects everyone to follow the same religion. Why do Christians need to go to a church anyway, what difference should it make? Doesn't God judge people by their deeds, not the silly club they belong too? Any Christian that claims going to a church saves the soul is just plain stupid. I don't have a religion myself, but I believe it's much more important to do good deeds in life rather than go to a silly club. I have worked for Unicef, should I expect special treatment, front row seats in heaven, or are these seats reserved only for "Christians." Jesus wasn't a Christian anyway, he was a Jew, if Chrisitans want to follow in his footsteps, why don't they attend a synagogue? mmm.. The last testament is only an attempt to legitimate Roman rule, turning Caesers into Popes and blaming the death of Jesus on Jews, so stupid when Jesus was supposedly cruxified not stoned to death. Cruxifiction is a Roman punishment for crimes against the Roman state, not a Jewish punishment for heresy. mmm..Jesus claimed to be the King of the Jews, maybe that's why he was cruxified, ...makes more sense....
Fri Mar 09, 01:45:00 AM 2007 
 Tom said...
Excellent post. Now all christians need to do is accept that, by their own admission (God is unchanging: Mal 3:6, Psalms 102:25-27, Heb 13:8), the supposedly loving god of the New Testament committed all these atrocities in the Old Testament, then they might realise that christianity is not so loving, even if you ignore all the violence committed in god's name.
Sat Mar 31, 06:53:00 AM 2007 
 Daniel said...
Amazing how much bickering a fictional character can cause
Wed Apr 04, 04:49:00 PM 2007 
 Pete Dunn said...
I could never stand to read the Bible as much as you must have to come up with this list. In fact, I found even this list nauseating.
Wed Apr 04, 07:51:00 PM 2007 
 jb said...
I made a couple interactive charts with your data
People murdered by God (food)
People murdered by God (sans flood)
Thu Apr 05, 07:56:00 PM 2007 
 Anonymous said...
Someone mentioned that he killed his own son...
That would be "human sacrifice" the bible (through others or as directly noted from the mouth of God IN the Bible) expressly prohibits human sacrifice, saying that it is something the heathen/pagans do.
It is surprising how "he" contradicts himself.
Sun Apr 08, 10:14:00 AM 2007 
 Anonymous said...
Hmm...Interesting.
I see that you have deleted the post from the bright and inquizzitive Lachdenan.
Now why would you do something like that unless he was right and it offended you?
My, that is truly a mystery.
What was that? "Any religion is evil, when it expects everyone to follow the same religion."
All to true, Stuart. And, of course, going to church cannot save you. Although Jesus made a regular attendance at the temple and taught there, that is not His requisite for salvation. It is something so simple: belief.
Does it really take so much faith to believe?
It seems that instead of a free marketplace of ideas that this is, in fact, a church without God, wherein, if one is to prove Him or to even give a reasonable opinion in His favor, then that same person shall then be expelled for their heresy in your eyes.
How much longer will you cover them?
Mon Apr 09, 04:12:00 PM 2007 
 foreignergrl said...
I have no problem with God killing people. After all, IF he GIVES life, he can TAKE life AWAY, right?
My problem is that you can't have it both ways. You can't acknowledge those killings and say that God is love, and that his Mercy is infinite, etc, in the same breath.
In my view, either we have a psychopath God that likes to kill people, or God IS love and the bible IS a LIE. Or something else in between. But you can't call such Deity good, loving, and merciful. If someone has an explanation to that I'd like to read.
Tue Apr 10, 05:04:00 PM 2007 
 [AcidcorE said...
To an Anonymous who posted this:
"You will rightfully burn in the realm of nothingess forever..."
How can I burn in "nothingess"? And how can nothing become a realm if it has nothing in it or is nothing?
Jackass.
Fri Apr 13, 03:21:00 PM 2007 
 Anonymous said...
Many believe that every death is the will of God... So He did not kill just these 2,270,369+ but everybody who has ever lived and died.
Tue Apr 17, 04:51:00 AM 2007 
 Sean said...
There is ONE thing that all the Christians who have been flaming this thread are completely missing. Human Laws are based on God's laws. The 10 Commandments people! It is reasonable to assume that any person, all knowing, omnipotent, or otherwise, who preaches one thing but does not act upon thier own teachings, loses any credibility they once had. The saying "Practice What You Preach" comes to mind here. One too many religious zealots have preached the word of their Righteous, Forgiving, and Kind God yet acted in complete ambivalence to the beliefs they hold dear. Don't go saying that God is not subject to Human law when he set forth the whole, "Thou Shalt Not Murder" thing. This is basic common sense, even for a superbeing.
Tue Apr 17, 08:39:00 PM 2007 
 Anonymous said...
The Aliens from Outer Space must be laughing themselves to death at all our moronic superstitions.
Thu Apr 19, 09:24:00 AM 2007 
 saintdane said...
this is incredible i cant see how people can belive that god is good
Fri Apr 20, 07:24:00 AM 2007 
 Anonymous said...
let me say something about this um
first of all noah told them fools that there was going to be a world wide flood it was there own fault the got killed not god's they were warned they thought they were so smart as do you they were fools
every body that died in the bible where killed because they did not listen ok also god created this world he can destroy if he wants
if you where not so brain washed you would listen but you think your so damn smart without god you would not be here when your standing in front of god himself asking your self why you were a fool and your sorry he will say you had your chance and then he will cast you into the pit of hell
for eternity then you will burn and burn with regret so if you fools dont change your ways an thank god for every second you live god created a perfect world and man messed it up and brought death in to the world because man didnt listen so get your facts right god siad not to eat the fruit of the tree or you shsll die the snake that tricked adam and eve in the garden of eden siad ye shall not surely die you shall become like gods
if you eat the fruit they were tricked as were you im only 17 years old and i now the truth ok if you still think your so smart email me at logoxgx54@yahoo.com if not look into kent hovind he will show you please dont be fools.
Sat Apr 21, 04:38:00 AM 2007 
 lysdexia said...
there -> their
Everyone in the world didn't listen? Wrong.
It's parents who made everyone, not God, cretin.
It was God who was a liar in the Garden when he said that those who ate the fruit shall surely die; the snake said that they shall not die and would become as gods, which was true.
http://google.com/groups?q=God-lied
And Krist, who said that his generation shall not pass until the tribulation, the end of the world!, and his return (Matt 24:34) was also a liar, as it did not happen by the year -4+33+25=54. If interpretators mean the destruction of the temple in 70, then Matt 24:14 is wrong as the Gospel was not preached to all nations yet (I think it is already, by now, so it'd be wrong today also.) and Matt 24:29-31 are wrong as there were no such celestial signs.
The tribulation already expired.
Sun Apr 22, 04:49:00 PM 2007 
 Anonymous said...
What you have to understand is that Yahweh is actually not The "God", he is a Sumerian Dragon God originally known as Enlil who flooded the world because people were "too noisy". The real God who created these intelligent dragons out of some kind of dinosaur 100 million years ago had a whole universe to manage so he left the dragon Yahweh in charge, that being a dragon, naturally revels in burning and consuming people, just like the fairytale dragons. The bible even describes him as a dragon, with fire spewing from his mouth and smoke from his nostrils.
Mon Apr 23, 05:28:00 PM 2007 
 Anonymous said...
he doest exist,so he can't murder
Thu Apr 26, 02:01:00 PM 2007 
 Acharya S said...
Very useful and thorough analysis. I might also suggest this essay, Victims of the Christian Faith.
Keep up the good work.
Acharya S
Author of The Christ Conspiracy
Sun May 06, 11:15:00 PM 2007 
 Brucker said...
Holy crap, Steve, I think you've got more comments on this one post than I have on my whole blog!
Tue Jun 05, 01:10:00 AM 2007 
 Gareth Chambers said...
God is a righteous God and his actions are beyond our limited comprehension! The God that is put into an image and labelled is the creation of the human mind and therefore falls far short of the truth! We sometimes see God as a cuddly Father figure but we forget that He is a God which is above good and evil! He is beyond either because of the enormity of His being! To understand His actions is to understand His being and scale which is a complete figment of our imagination! By that I mean we don’t have the power in terms of mentality or spiritually nor will we! To try and rationally think through Gods actions is to say that He is in some way equal to us which is a lie created to make people doubt our Mighty God! We cant understand the realm in which God is therefore we cannot ever question one of His actions!
Wed Jun 27, 07:38:00 AM 2007 
 Gareth Chambers said...
What is your explanation for all the rash killings and deaths in the Old Testament Commanded by God – and why are they in such contrast to the New Testament ?
My first thought is that God in fact is not “killing” by definition in our sense of the word. Because its not murder – God is rightfully taking what is his - Life?? And his plans aren’t always known to men.
Secondly of all these thousands of people who died as a direct result of God – Could we not say that anyone who ever dies ANYWHERE is a direct result of God as he is all-knowing, all powerful and in control if everything. He gives life and he takes away.
Thirdly Look at the “Bible Panorama” In its basic terms it is 2 testaments, New and Old, With the centre event being the Death of Christ at the cross. There are so many parallels between the Old and New Testaments.
1 – Blood / Animal sacrifices are needed to a priest – Now no more is needed as Jesus has paid the once and for all salvation (to those who accept)
2 – Old Covenant / New Covenant
3 – God who too holy to be seen by man / Marked by the veil in the Temple – NT – Jesus Christ has been made the mediator between man and God.
4 – God spoke through prophets and dreams / visions – Now he speaks through his word the bible and the actions words of his son. God in humanity.
5 – Prophecy fulfilled to the exact letter and future events yet to be fulfilled
What does this mean? Could it possibly be that the reason why God “let people die” was not because with respect he was going around killing who he pleased irrespective of what they done? NO………………….God is a righteous judge, his ways are not our ways BUT lets look at what people did to deserve this?
(A) Killed as a result of their aggression against the nation of Israel.
(B) Killed as a result of enmity between them and Israel, but not specifically the violent aggression of the victim in particular.
(C) Killed as a result of their sin that made God angry
(D) Killed as a result of somebody else's sin. ???
Now can you see any parallels with the New Testament? God has warned us we are in danger (living in sin) But he is just and righteous, and as per usual has created a solution which is the death of Jesus on the cross i.e what I am saying is that God does not kill innocents, unless they reject his message of warning, then he has no choice because he HAS to be just, its his nature.
Wed Jun 27, 07:39:00 AM 2007 
 Erik Hanselmann said...
...at the end of the times, all will be revived.
Wed Jun 27, 09:07:00 PM 2007 
 Za said...
oh boy, do I have a lot I would like to say, but since there is so much to respond to, I'll just respond to the promenent things.
to Tom who said "That's quite paradoxical. As a human, our entire concept of cause and effect presuppose a time frame in which any given event takes place. Think about it...for you to claim that something 'caused' or 'created' something else, you have to have accepted the premise that the cause came before the effect.
So, in order for your Creator to live up to his name, time must have existed. Humans simply cannot fathom a "beginning of time", because the term 'beginning' implied that there was time BEFORE that event, in which that certain event never took place. Again, causation presupposes both existence and time. Either god is subject to the the contraints of time and therefore is not omnipotent or he does not exist at all."
The word creator is english, for whatever is used to descibe as creator in the orignal language, but that is not what is important; the word is used to describe the act that we can only describe as creating, but does not mean it falls into the rules of cause and effect, and on top of that it does not matter because you are assuming that because God is outside of time that he can not effect things inside of time and use the cause and effect method to create as you put it.
what I am basically saying is: Think about how your arguement could be wrong before posting and it would save time from people like me to correct you.

To all the hateful Christians here and that will be here: LEAVE, you are not helping anyone or changing anyone's minds, you are just letting off anger, which makes other people angry, and as the Bible says: "...anger gives a foothold to the Devil"
To the author: Even as a Christian I find your list interresting and might suggest (if you haven't already) that you add the two from the NT that were killed by the Holy Spirit (which if you follow theology closely enough, you would know is apart of God).
To those that say that God was/is wrong to kill people for their sins: You can only see what they are now, not what they will be if they were allowed to live, but God can. People can not use that kind of logic because we can not see what would happen, we can only deal with what has already happened and judge what would be best (thus the death penalty). I believe the things that happened and were recorded in the OT were to show that sin is worng and why God would not handle things in any other way (and to show that He has control to do what he says), like teaching young kids early math, then He set what He wanted to happen, for people to see his love, but He had to set-up for it and make prophcies so people would believe (or at least not have an excuse when they did not believe), so then He could show the right way of living (which is what they could have lived like if they would just listen to God), just like then teaching higher level math after the basics.

To the one who said God lied when He told Adam and Eve that they would die if they ate the fruit:
If you haven't noticed, they aren't alive. God didn't say it would be instant death, but they did die (Adam died at 930, but he could have lived forever, I think he was punished for what he did, and same with Eve)
To the one who said you can't be saved by going to church: You're right, I am not saved by going to church, but by going to church I learned how I could be saved and later learned how I could help save others. I also learned that that doing good things will not save you. Your good actions do not overturn the punishment of death which is earned by sin (any sin), which is why Jesus died, to pay that price for us.
To whoever will try to say that it is not fair that God punishes any sin with death (or something similar): If you look around you find lots of Christians doing unchristian things. Why? Because they think that they are ok because Jesus will forgive them (I do know if people like that will get into heaven), but imagine if the cost of sin was less, we would have so much sin of all kinds everywhere. God does not judge sin on a case to case basis because if He did, we would begin to think that we could get away with little things, but not realize that little things add up to cause big problems. The punishment for sin is death because God takes sin seriously and because if he didn't take it so seriously, we wouldn't.
To all who disagree with things that can't be disproved easily by logic (I'm sure there is something in all that): I know you don't believe me, as I don't believe you, and I think that may be more because we all like to hold to what we believe already rather than listen to someone we disagree with (I try to not do that as much as possible), but I will also try to tear apart arguements I disagree with (which I've had pretty good success with). Still in all that I still believe the Bible and think that in the end most of the world is going to hell, and I believe there is a reason that God is justified in this (though it is one of the few things that excape my ablity to understand things), and I'm sure you still don't believe (or at least disagree or this is not written to you), and I don't expect that to change with just this (I expect that only God can make such lage changes).
To all: Well, thank you for listining as I rambled on and on.
Mon Jul 02, 07:19:00 AM 2007 
 Za said...
I just noticed on the list that you put Herod, which is incorrect by your standards (and possible in truth). The Bible does not say if Herod was killed by God (or killed at all for that matter), it only says that an angel said that the ones that were trying to kill Jesus were dead (which may mean there were others who wanted Jesus dead, not that I guess you care about that piece of theology)
Mon Jul 02, 09:44:00 AM 2007 
 Richard said...
What about all the miscarriages? If he is behind everything isn’t he the most prolific abortionist ever?
Wed Jul 11, 09:36:00 AM 2007 
 Anthony said...
To kill or not to kill; that is the question. Wether it is nobler to smite or not to do so. Decisions, decisions. Death's introduction in nature seems to be at risk of late. What if death were abolished?
How would the planet support all that life? Homo Sapiens knows that and thus subconciously supports the extension of death to all per the status quo. Is this not so? Man alive is as good as dead anyhowz we reason to ourselves. All the while the sinister little people wait in the wings to take our place. Let the buyer beware. Don't buy the lie. The lie that death is our friend. No! Death is our best friend and long may death reign. The culture of death is the culture of life in disguise. So embrace death rather then run from it in horror. Death is our friend. Amen!
Mon Jul 23, 11:57:00 AM 2007 
 JC said...
One cannot be guilty if one does not exist.
Of course, people attributed all these killings/deaths to their "god" as an explanation for something no-one can easily accept (people dying).
In our time, the Holocaust could be connected to God - for punishing the killers of Christ. Hitler the Messias...
The obvious point is - don't take faith seriously, please.
Sun Aug 05, 06:04:00 AM 2007 
 Aaron Ireland said...
It always amazes me the lengths people will go to to justify their denial of God's right to rule, as Creator of the Universe. One simple omission that justifies this article, and most of the comments made, is the existence of life after the cessation of biological function. We demand that God would cater for our claim to knowledge, and limit Himself to what we know about life and existence, and then either charge Him with crimes the meet our conditions of how life should be, or worse still, deny His very existence.
The same logic was applied when the people of Christ's day had him executed. The Jews charged him with blasphemy, for openly making claims that implied his divinity, when asked if he was their Messiah. The Romans, in spite of finding no fault in him, allowed him to replace a Jewish dissenter, who was scheduled for crucifixion.
God in His infinite wisdom has ordained the whole event, so that He could offer Himself as a replacement for the humanity that He loved. He even declared from the cross, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." He was obliged to chose between two scenarios:
Firstly, keeping His word to allow ultimate death to occur, in mankind, as a result of them choosing to TAKE the knowledge of the mysteries of the universe, thereby rendering them responsible for their cruel deeds, rather than RECEIVE it as freely given, as they matured to a point of being able to handle it. And secondly, cast aside His integrity by failing to keep His word. Fortunately He chose a third option, which required an ultimate gesture of love, from Him, which would cost Him all. To minimise the ultimacy of His sacrifice, is to minimise the many deaths that have been attributed to Him, above, and to hold onto the severity of these deaths, in the face of Christ's death, burial and resurrection, demands that we review our assessment of what life is, considering the testimony of He who existed before our space/time domain began.
The Apostle exhorted us to consider the "kindness and severity of God". Christ himself chided the Pharisees for giving emphasis to external conformity to standards of morality, without giving heed to the "weightier matters of the law", which he defined as "justice, mercy, and faith". He further told us that God's testimony to the world, given through His Ruach HaKodesh (Spirit of Holiness), would be of SIN, because see Christ no more, RIGHTEOUSNESS, because Christ would ascend into heaven, in order to return to preside over the third element of the Ruach HaKodesh's testimony, JUDGEMENT because the Prince of the World stands condemned.
None of you were there when He laid the "foundation of the world" (be it a metaphor or not), and therefore are not qualified to bring accusation against Him. He owes you no explanation, no matter how much you redefine reality to demand that He gives one.
As one who was a criminal in God's sight, and have justly received His mercy, on the basis of Him paying the penalty of my crimes, I have no no need for God to explain Himself for these executions of wrath, no matter how disturbing they are to me. You see, it is quite simple: His ways are higher than my ways, just as His thoughts are higher than my thoughts. There are many things that He has explained to me, through the testimony of Scripture, which had previously appeared "unexplainable", and so He has proven Himself justified. He had no obligation to do so, and I didn't demand it, but He gave me His mind with which to comprehend mysteries, which are unfathomable, and often times, unutterable.
He offers this freely to all who will repent of their sin, and lean their full weight upon the mercy of God, as expressed by His only begotten Son's death, in our place, for our sins, and resurrection for our justification. Simply put, we did the crime, he did the time.
You may say, "Hey, where do you get off calling me a sinner?" When, haven't you lied? You probably think it's justifiable...except of course, when someone lies to you. Haven't you stolen? You say no, but what about coming home with stationery from work? Or sneaking into work late, and receiving a full days pay? Don't tell me you have never wished harm on another? Well morally, you might as well have done it. Ever disobeyed your parents, only to later find that they were only trying to protect you? (The amount of people who change that answer after they have their own kids...) Cheated on your partner? They say that it is worse to be exclusive sexually, with your wife, and withhold your companionship and respect, to give it to another. Been jealous?
Whether or not you agree with these moral statements, are irrelevant. The fact is that God has defined a moral standard in order for us to get along in this world. Our consciences testify to its truth, unless it has become seared by repeated violation. And on top of this, he has further defined an importance to refuse another equal standing with Him, to never try to reduce Him to something which we can form with our own imagination, to respect His personality, as defined by His Name, and to acknowledge Him as one who would prefer one day over the other six.
Consider these last few to be a divine equivalent to "impersonating a police officer", and "resisting arrest". Law abiding citizens would acknowledge the need of acknowledging our law enforcers, and yet often we deny the Law Giver the same respect.
You will probably dismiss this as irrelevant, and most likely ridicule the notion, but there can be no remission of sin, apart from His shedding of blood. You can deny it, if you like, and continue to demand He limit Himself to your definition of reality, but fact is His definition is based on knowledge, where yours is based of pure speculation. If you read this to the end, thank you for your time. :)
cjakforest@hotmail.com
Sat Aug 18, 10:03:00 PM 2007 
 sylphstarwind said...
Okay, okay, I think I get it.
God makes the rules. We don't always have the mental or spiritual capacity to understand or accept it. But sometimes he feels like explaining it to us, and at that point we do have the capacity to understand. Either way, he has the right to beat you like a bad child if you don't obey.
Merciful God:
God: Don't eat candy corn.
You: Why?
God: 'Cuz I said so. You won't ever understand.
You: Ah, crap, I already ate like three of 'em. Sorry.
God: Uh, okay, as long as you're sorry... Just don't do it again.
You: Praise the Lord!
Officer God:
God: Don't get mad at people.
You: Huh? How can I help that?
God: You can't. But it's still a crime punishable by...horrible things.
You: Ah, crap. That guy down the street kicked my dog, so...I did get kind of...
God: *electrocutes you then throws you in a burning pit*
Ha I'm just having fun here. Nobody's gonna win.
Thu Sep 13, 02:11:00 AM 2007 
 Stephen said...
Read Lee Strobel's A Case for Faith. Thats all I have to say.....
Sat Sep 22, 11:27:00 PM 2007 
 Dinand said...
Hello,
For some reason you seem to be forgetting the people God SAVED by killing his OWN SON at the cross of Golgotha.

Greetings,
Dinand Mentink
Wed Oct 03, 10:12:00 AM 2007 
 Andrew said...
I can’t possibly understand how the people writing on this blog can attempt to justify the horrendous and abhorrent acts that God performs in the Bible, by arguing that ‘God is God, so whatever he does is justified’ (SoldierUnderCommand says: He is the ultimate standard for what is just and unjust. He can kill who He pleases and is righteous in doing it, for example)
How can you possibly buy into this? God’s actions in the Bible are absolutely incompatible with our moral faculties. The Bible says that God will send the vast majority of human beings to hell “the place of eternal torment with weeping and gnashing of teeth” and that people sent there shall be “tormented with fire and brimstone . . . for ever and ever”
We know that torturing people is immoral! Certainly you would not think we should gather all the earth’s homosexuals, unbelievers, and other ‘sinners’ together and torture them until they die. This is ludicrous! It is absolutely incompatible with our human faculty of morality; our sense of empathy and sympathy for other human beings. Look at the Universal Declaration of Human Rights; almost all contemporary societies endorse the idea that all human beings are entitled to certain universal and inalienable rights. This includes the belief humans should not be subjected to torture.
If the absolute source of morality is whatever God commands, no matter how abhorrent, than why would God have endowed human beings with a moral faculty that goes completely against what He commands?
Thu Oct 18, 11:15:00 AM 2007 
 Corey said...
Anonymous said...
Interesting that the only two deaths in the New Testament (After Christ has atoned for human sin) Are "ghosts" given up by the individual due to their actions...
Hmmmm. Me things that Anonymous forgot to read Revelations. Jesus promises to come back and KILL EM ALL!
Thu Oct 18, 06:54:00 PM 2007 
 Larry said...
This is excellent. How did you acquire the numbers for the armies, cities, etc?
Also, this is just recognizing the "recordings" of God related deaths in the Bible. For all those that say God does work in mysterious ways when people die, would that not mean that God had a hand in that too?
I dont think there is a fathomable numeric amount when talking about death and killing on the grand scale of life.
Thu Nov 01, 09:41:00 AM 2007 
 PLANET GUY said...
wow how did u come up with this number..any way cool blog man check. im goin to link you to my blog ..can u link to mind also ur blog is great
Thu Nov 01, 03:03:00 PM 2007 
 Paul said...
Hey I looked at the graph! I don't need to read the Bible or try to understand it. You've already digested it for me. I knew that Christians were idiots who'd believe anything...
Wait a minute. Jehovah commanded the Jews to "love the foreigner among you as your own self..."
to "divide your bread with the hungry, And bring the homeless poor into your home, to cover him". The instructions of a homocidal maniac? So what's going on here?
God is 100% just AND 100% merciful. (Not 50:50!) His mercy is freely available to those who turn to it, and his justice (read vengeance if you like) is freely available to those who refuse his mercy (hence the killings). He's not changing the rules to suit us, but gave clear instructions and he's left every person with the choice.
And what about the innocents? God is 100% just so you don't need to worry - the Bible clearly explains what happens to those who are innocent when they die. There are two kinds of death in the Bible: death of the body, and eternal death. If you don't understand the priority God places on the human soul you will never understand the Bible.
Sat Nov 03, 06:19:00 AM 2007 
 Steven said...
Interesting debate.
The bible is of course an ancient document, and it is important to realise the ancient mindset was very different to ours today.
Scholars would argue that people in the ancient Near East would describe ANY death as an "act of God." If someone dies young, then they must have done something bad. The book of Job in the biblical canon is interesting in that it actually argues against this type of logic. People were clearly trying to come to terms with why people die, and of course the early Christians, following the death of Jesus, took on a different position again.
The causes of death in the bible can of course generally be explained naturalistically - famine, war, disease etc. But I guess if you assume the ancient Near Eastern mindset, then God has actually killed billions, not millions of people.
Mon Nov 19, 07:02:00 PM 2007 
 Gabe said...
Your main verse is ironic that same angel is talking about people like you who don't want to believe and forget their truths.
Truths that were never strongly grounded, beliefs that were never firmly placed.
Sun Nov 25, 03:13:00 PM 2007 
 VERITAS said...
Some points to ponder:
God operates outside of the constraints of time. Among all the things in the vast universe, man is his most cherished creation. God gave man dominion over all of the rest of creation on earth. He created us with a free will to either accept him or reject him, and he has always respected our freedom to make this choice. For all eternity, God's love for us has remained constant and unchanging. Think about it. Any change requires the element of time, and God does not operate in time. His plan for us is eternal, and not confined to a mere 100 years or so. His thoughts and plans are way beyond our understanding! God wants all of us to love him and accept his blessings, and his love for us remains constant and unchanging even during times when we reject him. He continues to love us and waits patiently for us to come to him - respecting our free will. He will never force himself upon us! Could any of us even begin to demonstrate such patience and love? Open the door and allow your heavenly Father into your heart and mind. Ask to see, hear and understand, and he will begin to reveal himself to you. Peace!
Sun Dec 02, 09:03:00 AM 2007 
 Valery said...
To remember how to brush your teeth is also very important!The deal is in concentration, you concentrate on whiter teeth while brushing them, you concentrate on your genius ideas while thinking about genius ideas! Do not mix that!
Wed Dec 05, 07:41:00 AM 2007 
 erlybird said...
No, No...you have it all wrong. The true number is incalculable. Listen, if God saved thousands during Katrina and the Asia Tsunami then one must conclude that He killed the rest.
Fri Dec 14, 10:57:00 AM 2007 
 Astarte said...
The last day of 2007.. and I recieved the first comment of the day for the last part of the year in.
Welcome God to 2008, a year of waning support, what then shall you do? Obama and Clinton seem to have more caucuses than you.
Will you go the way of Mt. Olympus or the belief of the Norse Gods?
Will your support choose to become armed and make believers by force?
Will you choose your tribe- muslims, christians or jews for aren't you really the same for each one?
Who really is the trickster in the Bible many disciples speak of?
As for your former once beautiful angel of Light, Lucifer, I feel very sorry for him (or her) to. All these bad things being attributed to him as you.
Perhaps with these realizations in here we will know the true motivation of death and that is in man itself, not some conjured diety of GOD, Allah, god, or gods.
You the Christian ignorant that wake up everyday and say God is in everybody. Do you suppose that implies to the Innuit that live in a world untouched by your divine beliefs until we introduced them the sins of our world by the guise of Christian missions? Oh hmm let us not forget that your missions fail to reach everybody, if they happen to die before they know your God its unfortunately to late for them.
You the extremist muslims who tout 72 virgins as a reward for being a martyr. More you are nothing but 72 pieces of flesh and more when you self pity lets you moronically except a strapped explosive vest from some Imam who brainwashes you into your belief of God- Allah.
You the Isrealite who tout yourself as the chosen and the saved. A people who's devout irostracy to the lineages of Abraham make you think you are better than anyone else. Yet you deny entry to your country by Black Jewish Ethiopians who have more direct lineage to the tribe of Abraham than your Blond haired blue eyed Starbucks loving jewish families.
I believe in a meaning before and a meaning after. It is MY FAITH in knowing you as the halls of Valhalla you will become just another book of myths in time to come.
Tetra Grammaton is our way.
Mon Dec 31, 10:26:00 AM 2007 
 trans-freak said...
The people that say that God created us, so has right over our life (and death) are wrong.
By creating something living, you have responsibilty. If I was to save your life, that doesn't justify me stabbing you in the back (literally) a few years later.
If you create something though, you are not just injustified to ill-treat them. You have responsibility over their life. The comparison for a parent is true. As a father has a responsibility to look after his children, as they are his creation, a Father has a responsibility to look after His children, as they are His creation.
Thu Jan 10, 12:21:00 PM 2008 
 Paul said...
Except that... if you were to create a world that runs according to LAWS (eg the law of gravity for one) and beings that have CHOICE, you can't always protect them from harm without violating the law or the power of choice you gave them.
Thu Jan 10, 12:49:00 PM 2008 
 Jennifer said...
ok....so I read the names and the number of deaths. But what does this proof? How many people have been killed by the hand of man? That number exceeds the numbers listed above.
So if God is evil because he killed all those people then we are worse because we have killed millions more than he has. Plus the fact that he just took their life after he had warned them. We just kill, rape, physically and emotionally abuse each other, lie, steel, cheat....and the list goes on.
Thu Feb 07, 01:50:00 PM 2008 
 Terry S said...
I didn't read down through all of the 110 or so comments, so maybe someone caught this, but there is a tale somewhere in the old testament about a group of children, who taunted an old man for being bald, were attacked and killed by a group of "she bears" sent by god. I bet that showed those little shits!
Thu Feb 14, 10:57:00 PM 2008 
 Cher said...
What about when god killed himself (when he was Jesus). It was all part of HIS plan right? Isn't suicide condemned by Christianity???
Fri Feb 15, 09:01:00 PM 2008 
 Paul said...
"What about when god killed himself (when he was Jesus)... Isn't suicide condemned by Christianity?"
More scintillatingly brilliant logic...
Actually Cher - if you really thought about it (which I suspect is NOT likely) crucifixion is one of the only forms of death that's impossible to inflict on yourself.
In any case - if a man throws himself in front of a car to save the life of his daughter, and dies, but her life is saved, who would call that suicide? Noone - most people would marvel at the love shown by the father.
The Bible teaches that is pretty much what Jesus did. That God in Jesus paid the penalty (death) for Cher's (and all his sons' and daughters') sin. Now, you Cher, are FREE to accept the forgiveness offered, to reject it, or to joke about it.
Sun Feb 17, 03:27:00 AM 2008 
 All's Wool that Ends Wool said...
I would add unknown thousands in Sodom and Gomorrah (actually five cities) and of course, the Flood, where only eight people survived.
Sun Feb 24, 06:23:00 PM 2008 
 DrewDown said...
I think it would be fair to say that we all die at some point, the how and why is the most interesting.
Wed Feb 27, 01:52:00 PM 2008 
 Halapciuc said...
The question is: IS THERE ANY GOD?? OR SATAN?
Fri Apr 18, 08:09:00 AM 2008 
 Andy said...
Very interesting site. I used to be religious but the terrorism in the Old Testament turned me off. Then I get into the New Testament as a reformed Catholic and found much hypocrisy and inconsistency. Perhaps the biggest problem for me was the last supper in Luke. Here's a guy, not an apostle describing the event, and he wasn't even there. Anyway I have no animosity toward religious people. It wasn't my bag, and I've never been happier.
Thu Apr 24, 11:21:00 PM 2008 
 Rugby said...
Who is that judges God or how he deals with HIS people. And to refer to "Samson's GOD-assisted act of terroism" on what basis do you lay that you could catagorize that as Terroism. Yes, i see he avenged himself, but that is NOT terroism. Is it Right no, but God did not assist him, and it certainly was not Terroism.
How dare you judge the God who created you,
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
Genesis 1:27
And let us not remember who will be judged on YOUR death.
25 Far be it from You to do such a thing as this, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous should be as the wicked; far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?”
Genesis 18:25
Now where does it say that any of the people he killed were rightious enough to be kept alive? And tell me how is it that you lay the "wicked" label on the Very same person that could take you right back to the thing before he created you, NOTHING?
How do you call someone unrightious when he killed His own son to Save You and me from the hands of evil? If you were asked to do the same, I KNOW you would be too cowardly to do it. tell me, how is it remotely rightious to label GOD unrightious when none of us even deserve to be breathing.
You count how many God has killed, But if you were to count you own wrongdoing, It would be 10 times more. So tell me, Who is more wicked, the person who kills men and women whom have diobeyed and sinned against him, or the man whom cannot even go one day without sinning and yet still judges the rightious?
Sat Apr 26, 07:43:00 AM 2008 
 Phil said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Sat Apr 26, 12:34:00 PM 2008 
 armchairdissident said...
I would argue that you missed the book of Job. Whilst, technically, other people did the killing, god should certainly be tried for incitement to violence, and wilful neglect.
Wed May 07, 04:40:00 AM 2008 
 voodooKobra said...
I always thought the number was about 300,000... but 2 million? God damn! (Ironic, eh?)
Thu May 15, 09:24:00 PM 2008 
 Bruce said...
If you're truly interested in whether a supposed "God of Love" can really exist and whether He really killed all those people spoken of in the Bible I suggest you visit the following website:
www.canagodoflovereallyexist.blogspot.com
Sat Jun 21, 05:10:00 AM 2008 
 Paul said...
Bruce, if you overlook the fact that God may have allowed man free will to choose, your logic will be flawed...
If you engage that possibility you not only have to answer the question "is God a God of love" but "is God a God of justice"? In other words - if God gave man free will - does He care how man chooses and will he act at some point to reward the good and punish the evil. Is He just?
What if God IS a God of love AND a God of justice?
Well then, you have to rethink your logic, and re-read Genesis. Then, the life and sacrifice of Jesus makes absolutely perfect, logical sense.
Your question about God's nature: "if God wants us to know that He exists, why hasn’t He shown Himself to us, so that there is no doubt in our minds of His existence?" was plainly and adequately answered once and for all by Jesus Christ: "You will find me when you seek Me with all your heart." For some reason God does not allow himself to be found by the proud self-satisfied observer, but by the humble SEEKER.
"Why hasn’t He shown Himself to us?" Well, hasn't he??? History records a man, who claimed to be God, whose body has not been produced (even by his enemies), whose 10 closest friends (apart from John) were tortured and killed rather than deny their claim of his divinity. The nature and manner of this man was prophesied many times centuries before. In Daniel 9 the EXACT date of the coming of this God-man was declared(to the day - if you study it), hundreds of years before. These facts are undeniable-if you study them. But you have to be a humble seeker.
If God is a God of love He wouldn't limit himself to being found by the intelligent only. Of course He would different criteria - humility and faith. Jesus said: "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from wise and intelligent people and have revealed them to infants."
Sat Jun 21, 06:26:00 AM 2008 
 JJ said...
first off
the jews used god as a justification to killing everyone in the land to make living space for themselves just like a million other races and poeple have done.
second
God has not shown himself or proved himself nether have his followers so how can he expect anyone to belive in him based on 'faith'??? i am suppost to change my lifestyle and give up all my 'wicked ways' just because some guy said i should??? If god is real and really expects me to do just that he is not just.
Third
the poeple who wrote the bible believers in it and it all comes from there view point. If hitler wrote a book about world war 2 would you just belive in it?? or would you look at other view points and soures to find the truth? i dont know how anyone can just read the bible and take it for truth and i like how god dosent kill anyone know a days even though he have poeple just as evil if not more so.
Fri Jun 27, 02:33:00 PM 2008 
 Archie said...
its interesting to note that, for an original post that only stated the number of people that have been killed by god in the bible, there are a huge number of complaints seeking to point out the number of people saved and helped by god and the number of people that have claimed that his killings were justified or not. When i read the bit at the top i just read a bit of factual information about the people god killed according to te bible. If colating these "facts" into a single page is some kind of blasphemy or whatever crime he has commited by pointing it out then surely, the person who originally put together the bible recounting all of these facts is just as deserved of punishment as poor old steve wells whom meny of you have cast to damnation.
what exactly is his crime?
Mon Jul 07, 04:47:00 PM 2008 
 Kyle Brooks said...
the pesky ethics...
it could be argued that christians have killed billions of people, either directly or indirectly, yet christians believe that this is OK under the "loving" God.
if you truly, fully loved someone, and suddenly killed them, is this true love?
you can add 6,602,224,175 as a theoretical past-based metric on how much people God, through his people, killed since the birth of His only son, who He gave because he loved the world so much that he did not want people sinning. (to add to that, Jesus' murder by the Romans through God ... justified? I think not)
is it ethical to mass murder billions upon trillions of people for your own religious gratification? (this includes Jesus!)
Sat Jul 12, 07:33:00 PM 2008 
 Ben said...
How many has God made?
Tue Jul 22, 03:48:00 AM 2008 
 Duffy said...
How many did Satan kill in the bible?
Less probably?
Thu Sep 11, 01:20:00 PM 2008 
 Patricia Long said...
I am a christian(jus wanted to say that upfront)...Sadly death on earth means nothing because all of us, those who know GOD and those who dont are going to live forever. Our heart toward GOD on earth determines whether we will spend forever with him or with satan. It really is our choice. Now the question is would it be better for GOD to have allowed those people to live and cause even more corruption in the world, when he knew that they were going to hell? Believe me neither I nor GOD is happy about people going to hell but when people make that decision they take it out of GOD's hands because he gave us a free will. I'm writing this because GOD wants you to know that HE is not evil and HE doesn't hate us but HE hates the things we consume ourselves with (sin). GOD wants anyone who is willing to hear HIM to know that through JESUS CHRIST we dont have to be associated with our sin anymore. Ask Jesus to come into your life and find out what that actually means. Please, please don't continue to hate GOD when HE truly loves you so much. If you dont believe me then ask GOD to prove HIMself to you and be open to HIS reply. Please.
Thu Sep 11, 07:34:00 PM 2008 
 Rey Magdalaga said...
Patricia: "GOD wants you to know that HE is not evil"
Have you read these verses in the bible?
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Exodus 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
Joshua 23:15 Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things.
Judges 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit
1 Samuel 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
2 Samuel 12:11 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house
1 Kings 9:9 ...therefore hath the LORD brought upon them all this evil.
1 Kings 14:10 Therefore, behold, I will bring evil upon the house of Jeroboam.
2 Kings 6:33 ...Behold, this evil is of the LORD;
2 Kings 21:12 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Behold, I am bringing such evil upon Jerusalem and Judah, that whosoever heareth of it, both his ears shall tingle.
2 Kings 22:16 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon this place
Nehemiah 13:18 Did not your fathers thus, and did not our God bring all this evil upon us, and upon this city?
Jeremiah 4:6 Set up the standard toward Zion: retire, stay not: for I will bring evil from the north, and a great destruction.
Jeremiah 6:19 Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people
If these texts are NOT EVIL, I dunno what it is. Either you believe your bible as true or not.
Sun Sep 28, 11:11:00 PM 2008 
 Patricia Long said...
Thanks for responding Rey, I have to admit I'd been kinda waiting around for someone to respond. Anyway, yes I had already read some of those scriptures you posted and thanks to your post I've now read the others and was forced to do some studying. As you may know the old testament of the bible was originally written in Hebrew. The hebrew word used for evil in every one of those scriptures you listed is ra' which means adversity, affliction, or calamity. While the word used in describing the evil of men is ra'a' which means to spoil or to make good for nothing. This difference is important because when the bible talks about GOD sending evil it is describing punishments that he sends because of the true evil of men. Another thing you must realize is that GOD hated to do this. I challenge you to go to each of those scriptures you listed and perhaps read on beyond the initial verse. If you do you will always encounter GOD's mercy. You will always find HIM begging and pleading with the people to repent and return to HIM. You will always find HIM offering a way out. Now you may be asking why GOD has to punish people for their evil. Well in the beginning we were made without sin because we were made in the image of GOD but satan (who had been cast out of heaven because he hated GOD)decieved us causing to believe GOD to be a liar. When we first betrayed GOD by believing satan we became perverted and were no longer in GOD's image. GOD is perfect and when HE comes in contact with sin HE MUST destroy it. This should never have been a problem because we should never have sinned but when we did the bible says the we were "clothed in iniquity". So, for a long time when GOD saw us all HE could see was our clothing of sin and in order to protect us from destruction he had us offer sacrifices. Something had to be killed because GOD told the first people in Genesis, before they sinned, that the price of sin is death. So sadly, if we were to live the animals had to die and we had to obey the laws that GOD sent to us. Now GOD knew all along that this system was not going to work out for the long term because although the people repented they continued to sin. In order to not be forced to literally kill everyone GOD found a way to make a permenant sacrifice. The price of sin was still death and GOD himself would have to die in order to pay for the sins of everyone. So GOD came in the flesh (John 1) and "became sin" (Isaiah 53:6, John 1:29, 1 Peter 3:18, 1 john 3:5)and then punished Himself for our sins. HE is the only one who had the authority or power to take all of our blame and give us the right to be in HIS presence again without being completely perfect. Do you know that the Bible says in Isaiah 53:10 that it pleased GOD to crush JESUS on the cross. Now if you just take this verse in run with it then GOD seems like some kind of sicko but if you continue and read the following verses you will find that GOD did not like seeing JESUS suffer but HE was pleased with what HE knew would come after.GOD knew that by JESUS' suffering so many of HIS other children would be saved. So I urge you to always read beyond the surface and don't seek to view GOD in a certain light. If you open your mind and most importantly your heart you will be pleasantly surprised to find a GOD of love and righteous judgment.
:)
Mon Sep 29, 03:32:00 PM 2008 
 Phil said...
Oh my dear Patricia. When will folks like you learn you can't use the holy book to prove itself. Speaking of opening one's mind, if you could only step outside the box...
Mon Oct 20, 12:03:00 AM 2008 
 Seth said...
To Anonymous who wrote, God's existence is proven by the very fact that people want to try to disprove his existence.
This is incorrect. The burden to prove that God exists falls on you, me saying it does not exist does not mean that it does.
For example, if I say that I have the cure to cancer, that is great. However when asked to prove it, and I can't, I don't have it. Saying I have the cure to cancer and not being able to prove it doesn't mean that one exists.
Tue Dec 30, 02:20:00 PM 2008 
 roba89 said...
I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of God. I have seen too much religion in the eyes of too many murderers. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. What God desires is in your head and your heart. And what you decide to do every day, you will be a good man - or not.
Sun Jan 25, 12:42:00 AM 2009 
 Thoughts&Coffee said...
Now that's what I would call a divine sin
Fri Apr 17, 11:02:00 AM 2009 
 courtney said...
You guys are stupid. If GOD is an all mighty being, onimpotent and all knowing, don't we sound retarded questioning the very thing that created us in the first place? We have a hard enough time trying to figure what the hell our purpose is, let alone what and why GOD did what he did in the bible. To say GOD is too complicated, for us to understand, is an understatement. At the very least, we could be the result of boredom of a supreme-being. Most of the people reading this death toll are also uneducated to the fact that GODs agenda and temperament was different in the old testament compared to what it is today thanks to his son dieing for our sins. If you take a toy away from a young child it will cry. And make no mistake, the pain it feels from the deprivation of something it wants is real. But as an adult I can conclude that my judgment trumps that of a child in spades and would not be or shouldn't be considered evil if I did not show sympathy. God is that adult and compared to him we have the intellect of that child.
Thu May 07, 06:45:00 PM 2009 
 Leanne said...
Re this comment:
"You can only see what they are now, not what they will be if they were allowed to live, but God can. People can not use that kind of logic because we can not see what would happen, we can only deal with what has already happened and judge what would be best (thus the death penalty)."
Now that is exactly why non-god-believers like myself are against the death penalty (and I don't even have the backup of thinking that if I don't kill him, at least god will set things right on some judgement day). We don't know the future. The guy you murder in return for his murders may save your life one day. May discover the cure for cancer. May start the equivalent of the underground railroad in the future when it is needed. Maybe the person they murdered would have been a murdering tyrant in the future, so like your bloodthirsty but just and benevolent god, was an instrument to stop future suffering. Or simply, may be discovered to be falsely convicted, which does happen more than one likes to think.
So maybe y'all "God will punish you" believers might like to be so pro-life as you think you are, and perhaps stick to confining convicted criminals instead of taking their lives, which is um, a sin according to your own ten commandments.
And for all the idiots who say that the 10 commandments brought morality: the Code of Hammurabi was a moral and legal code written up eons before Moses.
And frankly, my 3 yr old son has never heard of your god or your 10 commandments, and has caring, empathy, generosity, affection, and an understanding of right and wrong. Sheesh.
Sun Jun 21, 09:21:00 PM 2009 
 Ysmael said...
how about context? why did they die? how about read what takes place in the story and see there is some sort of warning before any deaths happen?
obviously, we all know the agenda of the person who wrote this...
Sat Jul 04, 05:50:00 AM 2009 
 Watford Boy said...
I had just flicked through the first five books of the Old Testament and was interested to see if I could find a number for those killed. Google led me here. Thanks for the good work and of course - as you point out - there are many groups killed who are not numbered. I can`t read all the comments but it is hilarious that people justify these mythical murders and call themself "Christian" rather than believers in an angry, jealous, murderous magical man.
Thanks again.
Sun Aug 09, 03:10:00 AM 2009 
 JKnight said...
"He can kill who He pleases and is righteous in doing it."
You are a brainwashed fool.
Sun Sep 20, 05:38:00 PM 2009 
 Lancashirehoop said...
Considering that over 100 billion people have ever been born, this is an insignificantly small amount
Wed Sep 23, 12:28:00 PM 2009 
 Eric said...
How many did satan kill in the bible?
Sun Sep 27, 07:27:00 PM 2009 
 senbonzakura said...
First lets get a few things straight, I am Christian, Its MY belief, I will not begrudge anyone of THEIR belief, I would love it if you all believed, but I wont hate you if you do not.

To the one who said:
"You will rightfully burn in the realm of nothingess forever when you die you silly fool;"
The question I have to ask you is: "FOR WHAT?"
Exactly what wrong has Mister Wells done in posting this? He has made a compilation of facts freely found in the Bible, So its now a sin to read the bible? Or to make an observation?
I am not going to touch the issue of whether the killing is right or wrong with a 2,391,421 foot poll, but I am going to say Religious Nuts like you are no different from the Muslim Extremist you criticize the only difference is that you haven't worked up the frenzy needed to blow yourself up.

PS: (Matthew 5:22) - "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell."
Great move, numb nuts.


To Mister Wells: I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to death your right to say it.
Fri Oct 09, 03:13:00 AM 2009 
 kinslito said...
A christian's answer to any question that questions God's Logic is "FAITH". Blind faith is the same as being brain washed. If you believe in God then you have to agree that the same God who slaughtered so many innocent people also gave you a power of choice and the ability to think. Use it. I just can't figure out who thinking people can say "AMEN" to stories of genocide, child abuse, and ideological racism.
Hitler killed millions in the name of religion and a pure race, and he believed that the Germans were the chosen people descending from God. What's the difference between what he did and what the Israelites did so many cities and people in the name of God.
Thu Dec 17, 11:39:00 AM 2009 
 Justin said...
Quick question: Why do people always capitalize "he" when talking about God?
Anyway, it's still fun to see how many people can be killed in by just one fictional character.
Wed Jan 20, 06:57:00 PM 2010 
 Steve Wells said...
Justin,
"Why do people always capitalize "he" when talking about God?"
Because it's supposed to show how much you respect and fear him.
If you don't capitalize "he", he'll kill you.
Wed Jan 20, 07:21:00 PM 2010 
 Eric said...
All these lil rules is why he has killed soooo many :) haha
Wed Jan 20, 07:26:00 PM 2010 
 Andrew said...
"A christian's answer to any question that questions God's Logic is "FAITH". Blind faith is the same as being brain washed. If you believe in God then you have to agree that the same God who slaughtered so many innocent people..." WHO ARE YOU? God CREATED YOU. HE IS GOD. No one is innocent. we are all sinners. Come on im 14 and i get it! And "Anyway, it's still fun to see how many people can be killed in by just one fictional character.???????" No, its funny to see how many people were created without him!!! GOD EXISTS, IF HE DOSENT THEN WHERE DID WE COME FROM!!!!!!!!!!!!!??????????? Yes God killed people. Why? IDK. He Created us, so who are WE to question HIM?
John 1:3-5
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.
Think about it
Praise be to God
Tue Feb 02, 02:40:00 PM 2010 
 CP Graphics said...
You can't be a sinner if you don't accept the idea of sin. People are people, we aren't perfect.We're just being us. Doing "wrong" no matter how severe, is being human. It's what humans do, just like all life on earth. I can't hate myself for being myself, I CANT BE ANYTHING BUT MYSELF. How is that my fault? I'm just a dog chasing cars.
Wed Feb 10, 04:43:00 PM 2010 
 Thomas said...
It doesn't really make sense to talk about god killing and the justification of it - even if you pretend he's not fictional - but it is still interesting to see WHY this god kills all these people (as can be seen from the links).
A lot of the victims are just unfortunate or rather random - for instance the 70.000+ killed following David's census. In this story god first incites David to number the people, then for that sin ends up killing, not David of course, but 70.000 of the people so unfortunate to have been counted. There's also not much reasonable justification by modern human standards in the story of the man who gets eaten by a lion for refusing to smite a prophet - who asks for it himself claiming to be speaking in the words of god - or in the one with the bears killing some children mocking a prophet.
Generally the things you get killed for, or should be killed for, according to the Bible are really quite ridiculous.

Now religious people will come up with all sorts of explenations and reasonings and justifications for these killings, or try to dismiss them as pre-Jesus (although of course Jesus also strongly advocates the laws of Moses), in order to somehow make the Bible morally "right" in a world that has moved a long way ahead since it was written. And fortunately so: in the end the important thing is that no sane person would try to follow the example of god or his prophets or find his or hers moral beliefs in the actual words of the Bible.
Thu Feb 11, 11:48:00 AM 2010 
 Odios Normales said...
This is really good!
And I think it's silly to talk about the reasons, we are human beings and we makes mistakes. Killing children for making fun of someone's bald head? That's senseless.
Thu Mar 18, 03:49:00 PM 2010 
 Alex said...
One thing god didn't invent, judging by looking at this page:

THE FLAME WAR!!

Go Trolls! Go Trolls!!
Thu Mar 25, 03:36:00 AM 2010 
 Special Someone said...
I LOVE this post and the comments! I stumbled upon it because, recently, it had come to my mind that maybe God (NOT MAN!!!!) needs to do us a favor and KILL Obama, Pelosi, and Reid, and some other evil world leaders. These people are so evil and are doing such damage to our country/world. It seems they are unstoppable. Hence, my thought was, "hey, God HAS killed people in the past; why not now?" So, to research my thought, I decided to google if anyone had researched how many people God had killed. Wallah, someone had already done the research! Thank you!
Interesting, though, that the one who did the research did so to prove that God is "questionable" ... but I wanted the research because I wanted to prove that a GOOD God does, in fact, remove evil from our earth. (One of the benefits being to "clean up our world" and give Godly people a chance to continue to survive). Let's be honest, given no restraints and no negative repercussions, "good", God-hating people would have wiped out all of us Christians a long time ago.
I consider myself a devout Christian. I pray HARD for the salvation of unbelievers (including the evil American 'trinity') as I believe an eternity in an indescribable hell awaits them. I don't want any to suffer that! However, if one hardens one's heart, and worse, passionately works towards evil, eventually God will "honor" one's desire and judge that person. (Hebrews 9:27) My thought is, since God knows our end, (Obama's, et.al.), why not give some of these particularly evil people their eternity right now?
Some of the comments that have been posted are SO illogical, really, nothing more than biased opinion-drivel, that it's too much work to even bother trying to counter them. I mean, people, you have to WANT to know the truth!
I would suggest that the skeptics, (all, really), check out some lectures by the esteemed modern day theologian/apologist/logician Dr. R.C. Sproul. Accent on LOGICIAN! ( www.Ligonier.org ) Dr. Sproul is an extremely intelligent, educated man, a scholar in the fullest sense of the word, but he teaches in a way that even the simple can understand. He is NOT GIVEN to histrionics or hysteria. And he does NOT resort to "circular arguments" from the Bible to prove his points. Of course, he may illustrate from the Bible or help clarify some teaching of the Bible but he also illustrates and clarifies the teachings of great thinkers in history and of current note. He is gentle, thoughtful, and he will make YOU think. Check him out! (I highly recommend his cd's "Creation or Chaos", and "A Shattered Image".) I think even you skeptics will enjoy listening to Dr. Sproul, indeed, even find him compelling!
Fri Mar 26, 05:32:00 PM 2010 
 Joshua said...
God Doesn't believe in atheists, therefore atheists Do not exist.
Romans 1:18
"18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. "
Sat May 15, 10:43:00 PM 2010 
 Cher said...
I don't even know where to start! I LOVE the non-believers who are too moral to be religious. I appreciate all the kind and reasonable believers as well.
For those religious people who are especially twisted in their words, my heart sinks. What kind of morality do you have when you are so "certain" that the Mass Murderer is not as bad as the Ordinary "Sinner" who simply complains about it. Do you even HEAR yourself?! If I even believed in him, I would be God-"fearing" for sure! .... but my levels of praise and adoration would fall flat. I wouldn't be able to help it. It's just too hard on my internal moral compass that KNOWS what's good deep within.
Mon May 17, 10:04:00 PM 2010 
 razboinicu'luminii said...
How about the bubonic plagues of the middle ages ? They were also attributed to God by priests of that time. And the bible specifically teaches that the plagues are the work of the Lord. So it seams reasonable to add them too on the "casualties" list, no ? Just like the floods, tsunamies,hurricanes and other callamities. How about AIDS ? Isn't it too the work of God ? Because I know humans didn't create AIDS, so that means God is responsible for the billions that have died from AIDS, and any other disease for that matter. That said, GOD is the ultimate "Chemical ALI". By the way, doesn't that mean we should hang God ?? No, of course not, it means we should worship him, because otherwise he sends our asses to hell. Which leads us to the following question: if Chemical Ali was omnipotent, would we venerate him too ?
Sat Jun 19, 10:51:00 AM 2010 
 Special Someone said...
The thrust of the original research is how many has God killed ... that the Bible itself specifically designates ... hence, the Bubonic plague, AIDS, et. al., while they MAY have come directly from God's hand (doubtful) are nevertheless NOT stated as such in the Bible. These diseases DID come from violating God's health and moral standards that were clearly laid out in the Bible. (Read book: None of These Diseases by S. I. McMillen, M.D. & David E. Stern, M.D. Great book!) Thus, these diseases are natural results of man's efforts at self-destruction, not supernatural.
I hesitate to respond to "Chemical Ali" type questions as they, (a) don't seem sincere or (b) are sacrilegious. We worship God because He is self-existent (btw, self-existence is the ONLY logical explanation that does NOT violate the "Laws of Non-Contradiction") and because He is our Creator. Our finite minds can NEVER fully understand an INFINITE BEING. (Logical ... and ... Biblical!) Even in heaven we will not fully know God ... if we did we would be God!!! We WILL fully know Him in the capacity that He has given us to know Him. (Big difference!)
Our Creator is HOLY! He NEVER violates His holiness. (Logical ... and ... Biblical!) Thus, one had better Reverence HIM! (Logical ... and ... Biblical!) Be VERY careful at treating God Almighty in a spurious, non-sincere manner. He is patient but He will also judge. Sometimes I wish He would judge evil right now! But I REALLY am thankful that He does everything according to His perfect will. Hallelujah!
I would suggest that all check out some lectures by the esteemed modern day theologian/apologist/logician Dr. R.C. Sproul. Accent on LOGICIAN! (It's pathetic how unlogical so many think!!!)
( www.Ligonier.org )
Dr. Sproul is an extremely intelligent, educated man, a scholar in the fullest sense of the word, but he teaches in a way that even the simple can understand. He is NOT GIVEN to histrionics or hysteria. And he does NOT resort to "circular arguments" from the Bible to prove his points. Of course, he may illustrate from the Bible or help clarify some teaching of the Bible but he also illustrates and clarifies the teachings of great thinkers in history and of current note. He is gentle, thoughtful, and he will make YOU think. Check him out! (I highly recommend his cd's "Creation or Chaos", and "A Shattered Image".) I think even skeptics will enjoy listening to Dr. Sproul, indeed, find him compelling!
Mon Jun 21, 11:40:00 AM 2010 
 GodRules said...
Thanks for your research. Though it's by no means authoritative or exhaustive, I added it to my Bible resources. I might have missed it due to the late hour and my weary eyes, but it looks like you missed the biggest death of all... God's Son Jesus. It pales in comparison and it is the means by which life is truly worth living.
Mon Jul 12, 11:23:00 PM 2010 
 Jeff said...
The reason god kills so many innocent people, including babies in the womb, he condones selling your daughter as a sex slave as long as she pleases the man, he condones slamming babies heads against rocks, ect, ect, the list goes on and on, if there really was a god, he would not be as evil as this man is. Thats because there is no god. We are all brought up to believe from the time we can speak that there is a god, we are brainwashed by the people we look up to the most. Our parents first, then they send us to church where we study the bible, and we see all around us believe the same thing so then it must be true!!
The if you read the bible of Alah, buddism, muslim, satanic, or any other, you also realize that you would swear to god you were reading our bible. just as a crook created mormanism which many of the things can be disproved, there are still millions of people now that believe in it. That is how EASY it is to brain wash people. Its no different then the people who believed in the Greek gods. Back when the bible was written this time around by men we also believed that the world was flat, and there was no science. If any of you were all born and raised in Saudi Arabia, you would all be muslims!
Sun Jul 18, 09:28:00 PM 2010 
 kerryfox said...
But this does not include, "in the name of" god. In all religions and all wars gods have killed more than any other cause. Period. Want yes WW 1-2 were over religion. god is the greatest mass murder of all time. Period. And don't forget new laws ie 'hate crimes.'
Thanks
Kerry
Mon Jul 19, 07:34:00 PM 2010 
 Paul said...
It is so easy to be armchair "gods." Judging God, as though - If I were God this is what I would do. I wouldn't have killed this group or that group because they are not sooo bad. I wouldn't come up with a plan to kill my Son so the world could be saved- I would have done it so much better. The question is not "how many did God kill, but how many did he save? Do you have perfect knowledge of the Almighty, Do you know the mind of the Lord? I know I sound like Job when I say this but it is impossible to judge God based on our limited minds and limited knowledge of the consequences of our own actions let alone God's. Read a few books by Dutch Reformed teacher Brakel about the ineffable, omniscient, unknowable God who is our saviour. Who knows how many people God has saved throughout the ages, how many have been saved from even worse consequences. When time ends for us maybe we will have more knowledge but I think God only has perfect knowledge of the consequences of His actions. All we can do is judge Him based on our limited perspective and say - If I were God I would or wouldn't do it that way. If you think you can judge God, watch out, His ways are perfect and only He knows everything.
Thu Sep 16, 05:24:00 AM 2010 
 chantal said...
What an interesting question !!! I was a little girl when I rode the Bible, and it was so shocking all these wars and murderers. The worst way was to kill saying it is for the name of God !!! Today,we see again this . So sad !
Thank you to have denounced this crime against humanity.
elohaelena raelian
Thu Mar 03, 11:38:00 PM 2011 
 paulie said...
Chantal,
If you haven't read the Bible since you were a little girl - maybe it's time... if you read the beginning (and the end) you'll find God's heart and plan for His beloved creation. In the middle you'll find the uncensored consequences of man's choice(s) - good and bad - not through the westernised rose-tinted spectacles of TV-land (where consequences are hidden), but in truth - as the world actually is - where choices can literally lead to life or death.
In fact, you have a choice, right now, to reject the Bible based on your reading of a blog, or to look deeper into its truth and work it out for yourself. I recommend you look a little deeper. But it's up to you.
Sun Mar 06, 02:38:00 PM 2011 
 Jim said...
The God Murders by Gary Devaney site should be linked to here.
Wed Apr 27, 05:44:00 PM 2011 
 Jim said...
The God Murders by Gary DeVaney should be linked to here.
Wed Apr 27, 05:45:00 PM 2011 
 Jhughes said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Wed Apr 27, 08:00:00 PM 2011 
 Jhughes said...
Jesus is God with out his glory. The established churches filled minds with only demonic lies perverting Gods word.
Wed Apr 27, 08:05:00 PM 2011 
 Jhughes said...
MonkeyLover, do not judge lest ye be judged. All of humanity is on death row because they die,and God in spirit does not die. That means God is innocent of all charges.
Jesus who is God is the resurrection,and the life. Not good for you to speak against the only one who can give you eternal joy.
Wed Apr 27, 08:10:00 PM 2011 
 Jhughes said...
Brucker: Killing is killing,and way back in the beginning God made it clear that Satan is the murderer. When humans reject God God can do nothing to protect those that do not want to be protected.
John 8:44:King James Bible
Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Therefore whoever accuses God of being a killer has the devil speaking through them,and should is Christs risen name rebuke the devil telling him to get behind you.
Wed Apr 27, 08:23:00 PM 2011 
 Jhughes said...
Can you boast yourselves above the creator God? If whoever cannot boast himself above God or even be equal to him it would not be wise to speak against him. God is the giver of life. It Would be to your befit to not be against him, agreed?
Wed Apr 27, 08:37:00 PM 2011 
 Jhughes said...
Brucker: Killing is killing,and way back in the beginning God made it clear that Satan is the murderer. When humans reject God God can do nothing to protect those that do not want to be protected.
John 8:44:King James Bible
Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Therefore whoever accuses God of being a killer has the devil speaking through them, and should in Christs risen name rebuke the devil telling him to get behind you.
Wed Apr 27, 09:31:00 PM 2011 
 voiceof truth said...
25 Million since the inception of the human race - and you say God is bloodthirsty. Atheists have killed 50 Million American babies since 1973, and worldwide the number is in the hundreds of millions. And there is no doubt that babies by any definition would be innocent. Who is more bloodthirsty!
Tue Jun 28, 12:52:00 AM 2011 
 Eric said...
50 million? can we see the source for that stat please?
Tue Jun 28, 02:43:00 PM 2011 
 Lewiston said...
Doesn't God kill all of us sooner or later?
Shouldn't that be more upsetting than those mentioned in the Bible?
Mon Jul 04, 03:27:00 PM 2011 
 Lewiston said...
Doesn't God kill everyone sooner or later?
Why are you upset only about those mentioned in the Bible?
Mon Jul 04, 03:28:00 PM 2011 
 Jhughes said...
When God comes back in glory all things that die will be consumed in the light of his glory. Even the stars will dissolve when he comes back in glory rolling the heavens apart like a scroll. Those that have his spirit in them will pass from death unto life in a twinkling of an eye. The ones who want to give fire to whoever will also perish in Gods light as if it was fire consuming humans that boast in their assumed good works,and at that time perish, But the ones that do good even as Jesus does good in a meek way will not boast, And we will Know Jesus,and Jesus will know us saving us. No one in Gods glorified presence will boast in anything they have done. It will be Jesus in them doing the good works in whoever being married to their soul being one with Jesus who is Lord.
Then there will be a second resurrection at the end of a thousand years with Satan mulling about what he has done with no one to do his evil deeds on anyone through a human, and Satan will be loosed for a season, and it will be then Satan will convince the Fallen Angels, and whatever human that is raised for the last time will attempt to take the city that is before their eyes,and the light of God will consume them because all of them would be evil not able to stand in his presence.
Mon Jul 04, 06:22:00 PM 2011 
 Unknown said...
according to michael tsarion, the god of the old testament was amen-ra. that makes a whole lot more sense than it being the real God.
Sat Oct 08, 11:15:00 AM 2011 
 Iheartagw said...
This question arises out of a pre-adolescent view of God. It is deistic. The bible asserts that God kills everyone and everything (Deu 32:39; 1Sa 2:6; 2Ki 5:7; 5:18; Psa 68:20. Not even a bird falls to the ground (dead) apart from God's will (Matt 10:29).
The true Christian's belief is that God alone holds the issues of life and death (Job 1:21; 2:10). And we are quite OK with that.
So, your accounting is quite a bit low. All men, all women, all babies, all animals, all plants that have died, died so in the purpose and providence of God.
The question you need to answer is: Is God just and righteous to act as He does? (We have settled this matter in our own minds.)
What say you Mr. Prosecutor? What charges do you bring before the court?
(Bear in mind that God is the Judge also.)
Sat Dec 17, 05:39:00 AM 2011 
 Josh Robbins (Student) said...
Interesting point, but I think its not in perspective to how many purple exist today. 6 billion plus.... So, of course, If you adjust for two thousands yrars again. Your probably still at a world population of 200 million people that existed AND ever existed up to jesus. So 25million of 200 is roughly 13%... So through out history God "removed" ur estimated 25mil.
And... Parents used to kill(stone) their own children I'd they were evil, consistently disobeyed, or disrespected the family. Our culture is different, but If you have kids and think parents after 18 years of continual provisions don't have some say in that childs life, I think your nieve. Other countries, like in asia, still have a family respect and honor ... And they disown if you bring shame. Back then, a disrespectful or disobedient child could get parents killed. Think in times of kings and queens and dictators... The child represented the parents. Where do you think "son of a B-" insult came from...(bit%h meaning female whore) Not a insult to you, but to your mom. But you care for your mom and get reputation, so your get angry.
God is justified and punishing his own creation. (his children) . God has given us much, and ask we abide correctly on earth. Adam was given ALL if the garden but one thing. Over all animals, living thing and a wife. Never had to work. We are givibg much in our parents house... Consider their sacrifice, they don't ask much to follow their rules which are for our benefit.
But for americans, to put honor, dignity, and punishment in perceptive, consider your favorite movie with military in it, we love the heros with guns, BUT notice we also cheer when the us marine villain who proudly blew up a village killing innocent people. When the hero brings villain to the light , the villain is facing court marshall. He then takes his own life, as he knows he's brought shame to the us military and will face the same punishment and humiliation on a public scale. As americans we think this is ok, or justified for him to commit suicide. This is american example, but its simular across the globe. Honor is everything. All men know right from wrong, its engraved on our hearts. And consequence is inevitable.
Wed May 02, 08:14:00 PM 2012 
 bob said...
Many people do not understand the difference between the murder of an innocent and the execution of a crimminal. When God kills, this is a Righteous Judge executing judgement on crimminals for unrepentent and often extreme crimminal behavior.
Removing verses from the commentary of the surrounding scripture and critising them out of their context is using the reasoning of a child.
This kind of "editing" is also used by the media in order to make a story more interesting and/or to discredit someone.
Tue Jul 10, 03:25:00 AM 2012 
 Alerta Cristiano said...
God owns life, he has the right to do as he sees fit, especially when people behave like animals. Can you judge God? Are you more holy and more righteous than him. That is a big ego. Did you make those people, do you know what they were doing? Did you feed them that you say you care, Did you give to them more than God gave to them? Are you gooder than God?
Wed Nov 14, 08:36:00 PM 2012 
 miriam-e said...
Isn't it amazing how many religious people respond to this post so defensively by protesting that god is beyond human knowledge, but then immediately say that they know what god wants?
And why are they so defensive anyway? Steve counts the killings listed in the bible and these people get upset. Are they worried that a casually murderous god might not fit with the image they have built in their minds?
Most delerious are those who scream and preach with glee that we doubters will be tortured forever. We need look no further to see the pure evil that can be instilled in people's minds by religion.
Religion itself is really the best disproof of its god. There is a vanishingly small likelihood of the universe being created by some being, but if such a being existed, just imagine how insulting all religion are; being described as one who murders and tortures so indiscriminately, becomes insanely jealous and petty, and so insecure as needing to be praised constantly.
If people believe in a god then they must think we were given intelligence for a good reason. Surely then to believe without reason is to make the greatest misuse of that wonderful brain.
Religion! It is such a blight. I am so relieved all religions are finally dying. And contrary to what religious nuts say, statistics are aplenty showing that as we lose religion we become more kind and moral and peaceful.
(See Cross-National Correlations of Quantifiable Societal Health with Popular Religiosity and Secularism in the Prosperous Democracies or if you don't like pdf documents I uploaded the html to my site after the Journal of Religion and Society removed theirs. My copy is at here.)
Wed Jan 09, 02:26:00 PM 2013 
 Nivloc said...
I agree completely that the God mentioned in the Old Testament isn't pretty. I agree that fundamental religion rarely ends well. I came here to find and explain my doubts.
BUT. Three things for you all to consider. The first is that this God is one that kills many people for small crimes. Then, he sent Jesus, who there is really no doubt did live, and claimed to be Gods Son and overthrew the old religion (for which God did not send a pillar of fire to kill him). Then, we killed him. Killed Gods own son. The biggest sin in all of history. And at that point, the death and resurection, the killings stop. God did not wipe out all of humanity and has killed no one in a pillar of fire and plague since.
The second is that the Bible contains a whole lot that is true and good. If you ever want to look for what human nature needs to look like to be perfect, check the Bible. Specifically, Galatians 5:22-23 and 1 Corinthians 13:4-7. Quite a complete list. You tell me that those are bad, that anything that encourages those qualities is a blight on the face of the earth. Religion can be, and often is, good. I would love to see everyone practicing those qualities. But yes, is also often really bad, just as bad as the rest of the world. Cause human nature is not practicing those qualities.
And the third thing is simple. Those list of qualities? Jesus did them. He did them all, he did them perfectly.
Tue Aug 20, 10:37:00 AM 2013 
 Rosie said...
God & religion have killed millions, possibly billions throughout history. In the bible alone god kills millions. That doesn't tell us how many died during the inquisition, witch burnings, the crusades & enlightenment. In Ireland, it was the Catholics vs the Protestants. In the Middle East, its people killing members of their own religion. Just imagine what god could do if he actually existed. Religion is by far the worst serial killer/mass murderer in history.
Mon Feb 17, 07:57:00 PM 2014 
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Dwindling In Unbelief



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 01 August 2006The Wisdom of Korihor
Korihor is a strange character. He shows up for the first time in Alma 30:12, where he is called the Anti-Christ.
...this Anti-Christ, whose name was Korihor -- v.12
After this rude introduction, Korihor speaks just about the only truth you'll find in the Book of Mormon. Here's what he says about the foolishness of faith:
O ye that are bound down under a foolish and a vain hope, why do ye yoke yourselves with such foolish things? Why do ye look for a Christ? For no man can know of anything which is to come.
Behold, these things which ye call prophecies, which ye say are handed down by holy prophets, behold, they are foolish traditions of your fathers. How do ye know of their surety? Behold, ye cannot know of things which ye do not see; therefore ye cannot know that there shall be a Christ. ... it is the effect of a frenzied mind; and this derangement of your minds comes because of the traditions of your fathers, which lead you away into a belief of things which are not so. -- vv.13-16
And to the religious leaders:
And Korihor said unto him: Because I do not teach the foolish traditions of your fathers, and because I do not teach this people to bind themselves down under the foolish ordinances and performances which are laid down by ancient priests, to usurp power and authority over them, to keep them in ignorance, that they may not lift up their heads, but be brought down according to thy words. Ye say that this people is a free people. Behold, I say they are in bondage. Ye say that those ancient prophecies are true. Behold, I say that ye do not know that they are true. Ye say that this people is a guilty and a fallen people, because of the transgression of a parent. Behold, I say that a child is not guilty because of its parents. -- vv.23-25
And thus ye lead away this people after the foolish traditions of your fathers, and according to your own desires; and ye keep them down, even as it were in bondage, that ye may glut yourselves with the labors of their hands, that they durst not look up with boldness, and that they durst not enjoy their rights and privileges. Yea, they durst not make use of that which is their own lest they should offend their priests, who do yoke them according to their desires, and have brought them to believe, by their traditions and their dreams and their whims and their visions and their pretended mysteries, that they should, if they did not do according to their words, offend some unknown being, who they say is God -- a being who never has been seen or known, who never was nor ever will be. -- vv.27-28
Korihor is arrested for his wise words of honest disbelief, and then taken before the high priest, Alma.
Alma said unto him: Believest thou that there is a God?
And he answered, Nay. -- vv.37-38
Korihor said unto Alma: If thou wilt show me a sign, that I may be convinced that there is a God, yea, show unto me that he hath power, and then will I be convinced of the truth of thy words.
But Alma said unto him: Thou hast had signs enough; will ye tempt your God? Will ye say, Show unto me a sign, when ye have the testimony of all these thy brethren, and also all the holy prophets? The scriptures are laid before thee, yea, and all things denote there is a God; yea, even the earth, and all things that are upon the face of it, yea, and its motion, yea, and also all the planets which move in their regular form do witness that there is a Supreme Creator. -- vv.43-44
Since Alma can't refute Korihor's arguments, he says he'll have God smite him so that he can no longer speak. It's better, he says, that Korihor's soul be lost than that he convince others that there is no God.
...it is better that thy soul should be lost than that thou shouldst be the means of bringing many souls down to destruction, by thy lying and by thy flattering words; therefore if thou shalt deny again, behold God shall smite thee, that thou shalt become dumb, that thou shalt never open thy mouth any more, that thou shalt not deceive this people any more. -- v. 47
So "Korihor was struck dumb, that he could not have utterance, according to the words of Alma." And he "was cast out, and went about from house to house begging for his food. ... And as he went forth amongst them, behold, he was run upon and trodden down, even until he was dead." (vv.50, 56, 59)
So there you have it. Korihor was a freethought martyr and is the true hero of the Book of Mormon. We would all do well to follow his advice.
Posted by Steve Wells at 8/01/2006 12:50:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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17 comments:
 Max Udargo said...
It's interesting to speculate about Joseph Smith's conception of this character. If the assumption is that Smith concocted The Book of Mormon as a scam, then is not Korihor articulating Smith's true attitude toward the religious? Korihor's words may be the most true in more ways than one.
Wed Aug 02, 09:55:00 AM 2006 
 Stephen R said...
Moral of the story: Ask for evidence and die.
Wed Aug 02, 04:02:00 PM 2006 
 fontor said...
It's always been strange to me that Korihor sounds more like a 19-century rational thinker than a negative-4th-century Mesoamerican.
He's a great character though. Written to inoculate Latter-day Saints from the kind of things (I imagine) atheists were saying about Christianity at the time of the Book of Mormon's publication.
Sun Aug 06, 06:11:00 AM 2006 
 Anonymous said...
There's some very selective quoting and gross misrepresentation going on there. Are you interested in honest discussion or would you just like to claim that the BoM is wrong? I love religious discussion; let's just try to be fair here.
Here's my take on things: Half of what Korihor said was false, Alma did refute that part of it, Korihor was probably cast out for not following laws which attempted to be religion-neutral, and he wasn't killed by the Nephites, but by the Zoramites (who are not a people of God, as is discussed in the next chapter).
What did he say that was false? Korihor claimed that the leaders of the church were corrupt and took advantage of the people. [ v. 27: ye keep them down, even as it were in bondage, that ye may glut yourselves with the labors of their hands ] Alma refutes this in vv. 32-33 [ I have labored ... with my own hands for my support, ... I have never received so much as even a senine for my labor, neither has any of my brethren, save it were in the judgement seat (public office?) ] Korihor would like to make it out as if religion was forced upon the people, when in fact vv 7-9: [ there was no law against a man's belief ... Choose ye this day, whom ye will serve. ... if he believed in God it was his privilege to serve him; but if he did not believe in him there was no law to punish him. ] Alma doesn't need to refute Korihor on his religious arguments, because religion is voluntary and based on hope and faith.
What religion-neutral laws did Korihor speak against? Right after the verses that say that there was no law against a man's belief, come these: v. 10: [ if he murdered he was punished unto death, ... robbed ... stole ... committed adultery (100% religion-neutral? depends.) ] and v 11.: [ men should be judged against their crimes ... there was no law against a man's belief; therefore, a man was punished only for the crimes which he had done. ] In the following verses, Korihor argues that their religion is false, but only to undermine the other laws too. In v 17 Korihor claims because there is no judgement and after-life, that in this life..: [ every man conquered according to his strength; and whatsoever a man did was no crime. ]
When you, Steve, quote vv. 50, 56, and 59, you make it look like Korihor was killed by Nephites when begging for food, even though it clearly states that he was killed by the Zoramites, who in chapter 31 are portrayed as wicked, and then in 32 their treatment of poor people is once again discussed.
I'm not trying to be a religious nut claiming that the Book of Mormon is unquestionable and that Korihor was the devil. The first time I studied those chapters I agreed with him, but it seems like a lot of what he said was misapplied. Were the leaders of the church corrupt? As far as we can read from the material, no they weren't. Would his arguments apply to the church today, where the top layer - the presidency - is supported by tithing money but the rest of it remains volunteer-work? Perhaps.
Does that seem reasonable?
Tue Aug 15, 03:25:00 PM 2006 
 stephen r said...
well, He was arrested for his preaching (that is made clear from the text).
And, Alma didn't refute any of his arguments (excepting when he had god show up deux ex machina style to prove him right).
Even if Alma was a hard worker that doesn't mean that Korihor's criticism of the clergy wasn't unfounded. If I said "the catholic clergy is molesting boys" and someone brings me several priests who hadn't, that doesn't mean that the molestation is a non-issue. Likewise, Though Alma may not have been taking advantage of the people, some priests probably were; otherwise, Korihor's arguements wouldn't have been so dangerous that he would be arrested.
Alma brought him to the court to refute his beliefs, so that he would stop preaching and leading people away from relgion. Alma would have failed save for a plot device AKA miracle.
Wed Oct 25, 06:20:00 PM 2006 
 Tim Lindsay said...
I owe so much to the story of Korihor. My mother taught me that Korihor was not only one of the three Anti-Christs of The Book of Mormon, but that he was also a secular humanist. So in that moment when my faith finally gave way to critical thought, I remembered Korihor and knew I was a (born-again?) secular humanist. A simple Google search of "secular humanism" led me to secularhumanism.org, Point of Inquiry podcasts, and link after link to others who find wonder, awe, morality, and joy without a god. Thanks to Korihor, I am no longer just a self-ostracized Mormon; I am a part of the cure for a religious world.
Sat Nov 04, 09:20:00 PM 2006 
 erlybird said...
Wow. I just wrote something, an attempt at humor, I guess, and then I read your post. Pretty close. I take it one step further, however. I jokingly suggests that the final part of the story is not about Korihor being struck dumb but instead having his tongue cut out. Take a look...

The Zarahemla Problem
Wed Dec 12, 01:17:00 PM 2007 
 EL Rey del Cool said...
yess very interesting subject, this particular passage says a lot about mormon faith, and christianity in general, im currently studying the mormon faith with thwo missionaires, and this one was the first reading they reccommended to me since im a buddhist
it hink it is important in a number of ways
1
when asked about how c ould their god kill someone who had not sinned, they literally said "god preffers to kill one person instead of comdemning a lot more" this is an ourageous proposition, but a very serious one, a root for radical conduct by the hand of LDS members
2
korihor is punished for other's peoples sin, korihor is never said to sin, those who listen are the ones that "fornicate" he is not involved in ammoral conducts
korihor is innocent, while the guilty people are forgiven for their repentance and their belief in god
the nature of choice, the missionaries insist that free will was what differentiaded god from satan when both were holly candidates to come down to earth and lead us to justice
so they say that the is choice is supposedly free, you can either accept or reject god but yet, from this story we know that you cannot present the choice of not accepting god, not even with sound reflectons such as the ones brought by korihor
so then the alternative of belief is eliminated, by silence
this also echoes the way christianity has worked in so many cases, you take away the voice of reason, silence is the weapon, and men's greatest strenght against god lies on reason and on his own voice
3
the message it sends to members of the church is that dissenting voices should not be answered, but silenced
4
korihor was "infected" by the devil, a dark angel, so the origin of his sin is also spiritual, not rational, when rendered mute he confesses in writting that he always knew god existed
this is a terrible proposition, because it supposes that he did not came to these conclusions by himself, it denies a rational origin of these truths and blames them on "dark forces" which is how LDS stills deals with secular humanism and buddhism other forms of atheism
and of course, what you have already mentioned, that it suggests that without a god and a second comming ammorality is the logical result
the assumption that without a god an
im thinking of making a more concrete essay, its sucha fruitful chapter
Wed Apr 23, 03:48:00 PM 2008 
 Grego said...
I disagree with most of this, here are some particulars:
"Moral of the story: Ask for evidence and die."
Other possible morals of the story:
1. Don't lie.
2. If you listen to and choose Satan over God, there will one day be unpleasant consequences.
3. Asking for evidence when you just got some, is not a cool thing to do.
-=-=-=
"Korihor is arrested for his wise words of honest disbelief"
"well, He was arrested for his preaching (that is made clear from the text)."
It is *not* clear that Korihor was arrested for his preaching *religious beliefs*. He could have been and likely was arrested for his preaching, but for a slew of legal reasons, not religious.
-=-=-=
"Since Alma can't refute Korihor's arguments, he says he'll have God smite him so that he can no longer speak."
But he does. Alma told his side; yet Korihor has no evidence whatsoever that what he was preaching against the priests was true; when you accuse, you need evidence, and he had none. There is more to why Alma did what he did with the striking dumb part, and it doesn't have to do with not being able to refute Korihor's arguments.
-=-=-=
"Though Alma may not have been taking advantage of the people, some priests probably were; otherwise, Korihor's arguements wouldn't have been so dangerous that he would be arrested."
Logically, this doesn't necessarily follow.
-=-=-=
"Alma brought him to the court to refute his beliefs, so that he would stop preaching and leading people away from relgion. Alma would have failed save for a plot device AKA miracle."
He was sent to court by others (and rightly so); Alma was there to defend against the charges. How would Alma have failed? And would it matter? Lots of things succeed only by miracles.
-=-=-=
"when asked about how c ould their god kill someone who had not sinned, they literally said "god preffers to kill one person instead of comdemning a lot more" this is an ourageous proposition, but a very serious one, a root for radical conduct by the hand of LDS members"
Wait, did God kill someone here? Are you serious that you believe Korihor was sinless? Please, how have you seen this as a "root for radical conduct by the hand of LDS members"?
-=-=-=
"korihor is punished for other's peoples sin, korihor is never said to sin, those who listen are the ones that "fornicate" he is not involved in ammoral conducts
korihor is innocent, while the guilty people are forgiven for their repentance and their belief in god"
No. Korihor is not innocent. Also, there is a crime some societies have, called "abetting". Was everyone let off of their crimes because they repented? Can you show me where the text says that, or even implies that?
-=-=-=
"so they say that the is choice is supposedly free, you can either accept or reject god but yet, from this story we know that you cannot present the choice of not accepting god, not even with sound reflectons such as the ones brought by korihor"
Sure you can. The story shows no such thing. The Book of Mormon doesn't either. What "sound reflections" did Korihor have?
-=-=-=
"so then the alternative of belief is eliminated, by silence"
How so?
-=-=-=
"the message it sends to members of the church is that dissenting voices should not be answered, but silenced"
It does? How so?
-=-=-=
"buddhism other forms of atheism"
Buddhism is a form of atheism? What?!?
-=-=-=
"Korihor was a freethought martyr and is the true hero of the Book of Mormon."
No, and no.
Wed Jul 16, 06:37:00 PM 2008 
 erlybird said...
Ultimately, even IF you accept the very UNLIKELY premise that the BofM is what Joseph Smith SAID it is...which is simply ridiculous anyway, but there ya go...even IF you believe the BofM to be a true translation of golden plates delivered to the young Joseph, you STILL have to accept the fact that the story of Korihor in the Book of Alma is completely, utterly ONE-SIDED. This is Alma telling us what happened. This is HIS account. I don't care HOW righteous he might have been. The PRIESTS were the JUDGES....hell-LOOOOO. Would you like the PRIESTS of today to be on the SUPREME COURT?
Struck dumb? Nah. He was taken into a room and his tongue was cut out. The struck dumb story was just what they told the crowd outside.
Thu Jul 17, 07:09:00 AM 2008 
 catalyst (LDS) said...
Alma had an answer to every single one of his accusations, apparently you've conveniently misplaced them.
I think it's ironic that you're using the examples of ill-fated Anti-Christs in the Book of Mormon to uphold your prideful beliefs. It might do you well to read FARMS' well-balanced take on this story. Just Google "Korihor" and it's one of the first things that pops up.
Korihor's arguments are so obviously flawed to anyone with reason. It appears you're so blinded by pride, that somehow you're able to miss the point entirely. It's not "ask for evidence and die". The issue was that he was given all the evidence he needed. If he were to receive anymore, it would be an infringment on his agency. The faithful receive signs, because they already believe. He knew the truth. He confessed he did. He wasn't asking for proof, he was tempting God.
I have a feeling you know the truth as well, that's why you're able to harden your heart against the most blatant of examples of truth and deception in the Book of Mormon, and harden your hearts against them. Most Antis focus on obscure stories and misconceptions in the Church's early history, or on defaming the prophet Joseph. But you're so blatantly hard-hearted that you can make mockery of the most plain and prescious truths, and even sympathize with apostates. This is the mark of someone who knew the trut, and who has blinded himself so thouroghly that the spirit of truth has no place in him.
Wed Jul 30, 12:16:00 PM 2008 
 baby said...
Leave it to an LDS member to come in here and label everyone as being prideful and having hard hearts just for discussing this story in the Book of Mormon. It is you who is clearly prideful, anyone who doesn't see that way I see must be X
Fri Aug 29, 08:09:00 PM 2008 
 Daniel said...
"Serve God who gave you everything or disobey Him & face death."
I think this is the most important sentence in the entire thread. If you love Him and serve Him who gave you everything, you'll be rewarded. If you step out of line just a little, you'll suffer.
God is an abusive spouse.
Tue Aug 11, 06:56:00 AM 2009 
 Shelly Ru & Tigger Too! said...
It is interesting to me that the chapter stresses that there is no law against people who believe different things, at the beginning of the chapter... and yet, not only is he bound and banished from 3 cities, but he is made dumb, which leads him to have to beg, which leads him to die... But don't worry-- we don't have a law sentencing him to death or anything. We just do that anyway.
Mon Mar 08, 06:49:00 PM 2010 
 Shelly Ru & Tigger Too! said...
catalyst (LDS), I only have one response to your comment. I don't bother responding to the rest. Korihor has a couple straw-man arguments in his beliefs... but for the most part, they are much more logically sound than Alma's. It is more logically sound to not believe in something that has no proof (the earth, the sky, the movement of the earth, etc existing does not point directly to a Supreme Creator-- i address it, because it is the proof Alma offers Korihor for there being a God), than to believe in something that has no proof. Alma's argument-- "Can you prove it ISN'T true? Well, then it's just your word.. but MY word (my testimony) is INCREDIBLY more reliable" Do you see the fallacy? Two fallacies: 1) he says Korihor's word is not enough, but his is, 2) It is not the responsibility for those who do not believe in something to prove it, but rather the person who suggests something exists. If someone said that unicorns exist, it would not be logically sound for them to say "Well, you can't prove they don't, therefore they do."
Mon Mar 08, 06:55:00 PM 2010 
 Shelly Ru & Tigger Too! said...
Sorry to post again, this is the last time I think.
I think Korihor's concerns about the leaders gaining financially from the people's labor is better suited for our modern day "prophets" than it is for Alma-- who, as he says anyway, didn't even earn a senine.
Mon Mar 08, 06:56:00 PM 2010 
 BrokeJoker said...
Thank Shelly Ru for having the only good response in the entire comments section. I'm going to read more about this Korihor. I remember sermons teaching us the dangers of thinking in line with him, and now I see him in a completely new light. He is a victim of this portrayal of theocracy. One of the largest dangers to the growth of Mormonism is free-thinking, which is why the church is hard on offenders. Slight offenders, even, are excommunicated for their revealing publications and research. Korihor was added to the BofM as a tool to condemn anyone who questions the authority of church leaders. It's terifying to watch apologists try and back Alma in these verses. You seriously would have a man struck dumb for questioning what he was taught and raised to believe? It's not whether God would or wouldn't, because he obviously doesn't(Case in point, the world). It's a matter of political and social ideology. Should one man not have a voice simply because it shakes the very foundations of the current political structures? Theocracy is not an ideal form of government, simply because no man communicates with a deified being. Not your "prophet" or anyone else. True revelation is inspired in our own minds, just as the Book of Mormon came from the mind of an uneducated, gold-seeking, farm boy.
Sun Jul 25, 03:47:00 PM 2010 
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 01 August 2006Lot, the just and righteous
Lot was one of God's special heroes. Out of all of the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah, God saved only Lot and his family. And why did God save Lot, you ask? Because Lot was, according to the bible, a just and righteous man.
And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds.) -- 2 Peter 2:7-8
What did God like so much about Lot? Well, the bible doesn't say. About the only thing that we know about him is that he offered his two virgin daughters to a crowd of angel rapers, saying:
Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes. -- Genesis 19:8
(Lot was probably lying about the "virgin" part, just to make his daughters look more attractive to the lecherous mob. According to Genesis 19:14 both of his "virgin" daughters were married.)
And that he later allowed himself to get drunk and impregnate them.
And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him. ... And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth: Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father. Genesis 19:30-36
But that should be enough to show us what God considers "just and righteous." Sodom and Gomorrah

 The Seduction of Lot
 

Posted by Steve Wells at 8/01/2006 09:48:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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4 comments:
 Anonymous said...
"and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose"...this suggests that Lot didn't know what happened with his daugher, and had no control so the last line is invalid.
Fri Aug 11, 10:53:00 AM 2006 
 Steve Wells said...
Anonymous said...
"and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose"...this suggests that Lot didn't know what happened with his daugher, and had no control so the last line is invalid.
So are you saying Lot wasn't "just and righteous" like 2 Peter 2:7-8 says, or that you can be just and righteous and still impregnate your daughters (as long as you're too drunk to remember doing it), or what?
Fri Aug 11, 05:11:00 PM 2006 
 Kimma said...
Even if he wasn't aware he'd had sex with his daughter, what sort of parent would he have been to make his daughters think that shagging him was a good idea?
If this was a modern story, about 'normal' people, there would definitely be an investigation into whether he had been molesting them.
Do you think that if this story was written up as a novel, but leaving out the god bits, and having Lot (let's call him Larry) making all his decisions for himself, Christians wouldn't even recognise it and would denounce it.
Sun Jul 15, 08:06:00 PM 2007 
 ray.cabrera said...
Rom 4:7-8 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
1)Believers sins are forgiven{Lot}.
2)Unbelievers sins are not{People of Sodom}.
Conclusion: It is good for our soul to believe in Jesus. :)
Thu Apr 22, 11:33:00 PM 2010 
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 28 September 2006Using the Bible to clarify the Geneva Conventions
President Bush has a problem with the Geneva Conventions. He says Common Article 3 is "just very, very vague" and "open to interpretation" when it says that prisoners must "be treated humanely" without being subjected to "outrages upon personal dignity."
And that's where the Bible comes in. Since the Bible is God's law, it is above any and all human laws, including the Geneva Conventions. So the Bible can be used to clarify the Geneva Conventions. And that's what the legislation passed by the Senate today did: it clarified Common Article 3 using the Bible's guide to torture.
Posted by Steve Wells at 9/28/2006 08:58:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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2 comments:
 sattvicwarrior said...
COOL BLOG. YOU ARE SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO RIGHT ON.... WISH I HAD YOUR ELOQUENCE
Sun Oct 01, 04:50:00 PM 2006 
 Yan said...
I disagree, First i think we should use bible instead fuel for the car's. It may not last long but at least its mroe use to it.
For issue, well no matter how hard it is and some ppl won't make any decision but sometimes to save 1000 u need to kill1. With terrorist we have to have same aproach as they have to us. Remember we are not fighting in club who i smarter, we are going against religious fanatics.. and we should use all means nessesary.
Plus what is defenition of a human?
I would say stop the death penalty and let use those terrorists in chemical-biological-pharmaceutical research.
Fri May 11, 06:24:00 PM 2007 
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Dwindling In Unbelief



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 27 September 2006The Bible's guide to torture
Sometimes you have to beat people for their own good.
The blueness of a wound cleanseth away evil: so do stripes the inward parts of the belly. Proverbs 20:30
Some people should be beaten as a punishment for their crimes.
And it shall be, if the wicked man be worthy to be beaten, that the judge shall cause him to lie down, and to be beaten. Deuteronomy 25:2
It's always a good idea to beat fools. Beat them whenever you find them.
A fool's lips enter into contention, and his mouth calleth for strokes. Proverbs 18:6
Judgments are prepared for scorners, and stripes for the back of fools. Proverbs 19:29
A whip for the horse, a bridle for the ass, and a rod for the fool's back. Proverbs 26:3
And slaves may be beaten, as long they survive for at least a day or two after the beating.
If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property. Exodus 21:20-21
Beating your children is a sure sign of parental love.
He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes. Proverbs 13:24
And don't stop just because they cry.
Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying. Proverbs 19:18
It will make them less foolish.
Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him. Proverbs 22:15
The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame. Proverbs 29:15
So beat them hard and often. Don't worry about hurting them. You may break a few bones and cause some brain damage, but it isn't going to kill them. And even if it does, they'll be better off. They'll thank you in heaven for beating the hell out of them.
Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell. Proverbs 23:13-14
The Old Testament God used a rod to beat those who disobey his commandments.
If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments; Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.Psalm 89:31-2
And he tortured the Philistines by giving them "hemorrhoids in their secret parts."
The hand of the LORD was against the city with a very great destruction: and he smote the men of the city, both small and great, and they had emerods in their secret parts. 1 Samuel 5:9
At times, Jesus seemed to look favorably on torture.
In his parables, for example, Jesus often spoke of torturing his enemies.
And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors. Matthew 18:34
And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 22:12-13
The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:50-51
The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. Luke 12:46-48
The devils expected Jesus to torture them. (And Jesus didn't deny that he planned to do so.)
And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? Matthew 8:29
Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not. Mark 5:7
What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not. Luke 8:28
At the end of the world, God will torture people until they want to die. But he won't let them die so that he can continue to torture them.
And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them. Revelation 9:5-6
But the ultimate torture is hell. If hell is justified, anything is permissible.
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 13:41-42
If thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. Matthew 18:8-9
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. Matthew 25:41
...hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. Mark 9:43-48
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. Luke 16:22-24
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever. Revelation 14:10-11
Posted by Steve Wells at 9/27/2006 01:28:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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15 comments:
 jake3988 said...
A whip for the horse, a bridle for the ass, and a rod for the fool's back. Proverbs 26:3
So, if I'm a fool, I should be beaten. But wait, I'm an atheist and lookee here:
Psalms 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

Atheists = Fool = Permissable to be beaten.

Damn. (I really hate Psalms 14, btw.)
Wed Sep 27, 01:42:00 PM 2006 
 Anonymous said...
You're a bitter lad. I don't know how you got that way and I don't care to find out, but I hope that at some point you make your peace with Deity.
Wed Sep 27, 04:04:00 PM 2006 
 jake3988 said...
That's nothing compared to being stoned for being an atheist. But, now I realize I can be beaten with a rod too!
*Ouch*
Thu Sep 28, 12:19:00 PM 2006 
 JeffXL said...
When I someone quotes Psalms 14:1 -"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."
I respond with, "And if you don't believe in *my* imaginary friend, you're a stinky doo-doo head!"
What is the mental of age their god, two?
Thu Sep 28, 01:23:00 PM 2006 
 JeffXL said...
Oops-- that would be when I hear someone quoting.
Thu Sep 28, 01:24:00 PM 2006 
 jake3988 said...
Heh, I think he's just insecure about himself :)
Thu Sep 28, 07:26:00 PM 2006 
 sattvicwarrior said...
ANON ... YOUR A DORK. IF YOUR ANY KIND OF MAN RESPOND IN SAME.[ NAME PLEASE]
YOU JESUS FREAK BUTTHEADS AND CRACKHEAD CHRISTIANS FOR CHRIST ARE AN ABOMINATION . JAKE IS A CHILD OF GOD. . DID YOU EVER THINK THAT GOD IS SPEAKING THROUGH HIM. CAUSE HE CANT LOWER HIS CONSCIOUSESS TO YOUR EGO MAINA?
Sun Oct 01, 04:28:00 PM 2006 
 Michael Ejercito said...
We can conclude that it is perfectly acceptable for governments to use torture as punishment for crimes.
Sun Nov 04, 10:40:00 AM 2007 
 "It's Hot in TO-PE-KA!" said...
Post modernism has resulted in many believing in individual truth (truth applicable to each person by their own definition) however the bible teaches absolute truth. One unchanging truth for all things to be measured by.
We are all the children of God, and as such we are all responsible to act accordingly.
It is good to know Atheists are reading the bible, but it is not easily discerned just by reading it. I would also like to mention that you are wasting your time reading the Koran, and the Book of Mormon. The only English version of the Bible that is reliably translated is the KJV. Research has shown that all other versions are grossly manipulated.
If you really want to know Christ, ask Him to reveal himself to you. Ask him into your life and to show you he is real. Ask him by praying this simple prayer: "Lord I recognize I am a sinner, and I would like you to come in to my life. Please forgive my sins Lord and show me that you are here for me."
There is only one catch. You have to mean it when you ask for it. You can't just rattle off some random sentences and have no sincerity or earnest want to know. If you mean it, and you want to know Him, he will reveal himself to you.
If you have the guts to really find out, just open you mind and heart and ask.
I hope you find Him, He has made all the difference in my life once I finally asked Him in to it.
Regards.
Mon Feb 18, 12:56:00 AM 2008 
 randomblink said...
"I would also like to mention that you are wasting your time reading the Koran, and the Book of Mormon."
To Clueless in Topeka,
I think it's hilarious that you can auto-magically claim your fairytale to be the bestest because YOU believe in it... LOL! Oh my sweet reality... It's a clarification of the level of delusion you live in. Sad too... so much potential thrown away on a magical sky-fairy.
Let me ask you... are you able to heal the sick by laying your hands on them? Can you pick up poisonous snakes and they don't harm you? Can you drink poison and not be affected?! Because all of those things are promised as signs of your belief in Mark.
Mark 16:17-20
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
Christians, the NEW superhero.
chuckle
Sad lot of deluded folks. Hope the meme gets broken someday, maybe humanity can reach beyond these sad little fairytales and find true greatness... Cause I know as long as we grasp at superstitions we will wallow in our own filth here on this sad little mudball we call home.
Mon Jul 28, 08:27:00 AM 2008 
 Disruptive Influence said...
And then there was good King David who enjoyed sawing off his captives'heads with a woodsaw, or forcing them to run through a scorching hot kiln. And Gideon made his prisoners run through brambles so that their skin would be torn and ripped.
Thu Feb 04, 03:20:00 PM 2010 
 Michael Ejercito said...
And then there was good King David who enjoyed sawing off his captives'heads with a woodsaw, or forcing them to run through a scorching hot kiln. And Gideon made his prisoners run through brambles so that their skin would be torn and ripped.
Did God approve?
The rightness or wrongness of such actions depends on if God says no, you may, or you must .
Thu Feb 04, 04:33:00 PM 2010 
 Andrew said...
may I ask all the atheists why they hate Christians so much?
Wed Jun 09, 06:43:00 AM 2010 
 caveman teacher said...
@Andrew
I cannot speak for other atheists, but I can explain why I hate christians. Look around at the world christians have created. In the U.S., we have less than 5% of our forests left. We have less than 4% of fish left in the ocean. 80% of the base food in easter American ecosystems are invasive species, which is leading to a mass die-off of the native plant, insect, bird, and mammalian species. 93% of coral reefs worldwide are dying or are already dead. The many peoples of this continent have been and are still being either exterminated, raped, tortured, deliberately infected and forced to live in concentration camps in the name of christ. The many similar peoples around the world are still enduring genocide every day in the name of christ and the destruction of the environment by christians who want to bring them a "better life". The sadness of this is that all of them already lived the way your god intended if you READ the bible. The live the way we all did before adam & eve and that mess with farming started.
But, it can be simplified even further. We (or at least I) are so angry at the christians for destroying all of the splendor and beauty in the world in the name of an invisible man in the sky who not only permits but seemingly encourages those who speak his name to rape men, women and children on a frequent basis in his name. christians may not have created this culture of hate and violence, but they sure do their level best to encourage this culture to flourish at the expense of all other forms of life. I hate anyone that would beat a woman, child or other animal or do them any kind of physical or emotional harm, but I hate those that justify it using the bible even more. Using a delusion to justify mindless violence against those of pure mind and spirit is unforgivable.
Is this enough of an explanation or do I need to go deeper into the countless mindless depravities christians have perpetrated throughout the centuries?
Fri Feb 24, 07:36:00 PM 2012 
 MysteriousB said...
@Andrew, I can't speak for the Athiests, but as a follower of Asatru I can give you plenty of good reasons for pagans to despise you with the mention of just one name, (St.) Olaf Tryggvason who tortured and killed his own countrymen for refusing to turn to Christ, look it up, his punishments included forcing snakes down his enemies throats and placing hot coals on their stomachs until theirs bodies burst open. How did this monster attain sainthood?
Wed Mar 07, 06:49:00 AM 2012 
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Dwindling In Unbelief



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 24 September 2006How to stone somebody (according to the Bible)
The Bible doesn't say much about how we're supposed to stone people. What size rocks to use, who can participate, etc.
It does say that you need two or three witnesses (with or without sin) and that the witnesses themselves must throw the first stones.
At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death ... The hands of the witnesses shall be first upon him to put him to death. Deuteronomy 17:6
And if you're stoning your wife, family member, or friend for believing in the wrong god, then you must throw the first stone (and you may not pity her).
If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods ... Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death. Deuteronomy 13:6-9
But who can participate in the stoning? Is stoning just for men, or can women and children throw some stones too?
Well, as usual, the Bible isn't much use here. Sometimes it says just the men (Deuteronomy 13:9, 22:21) should do the stoning, and sometimes all the people get to do it (Leviticus 24:23, Numbers 15:32, 17:7, 21:21, Joshua 7:25).
But luckily Monty Python clears the whole thing up in the Life of Brian.
Monty Python - The Life Of Brian (The Stoning)
Posted by Steve Wells at 9/24/2006 12:52:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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 sattvicwarrior said...
your post is BRILLIANT your sense of humour totally divine. i laughed my ass off/
tis truly wonderul
thanks for sharing
Sun Sep 24, 05:43:00 PM 2006 
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Dwindling In Unbelief



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 22 September 2006Death by Stoning: the Bible vs the Quran
In my last post I listed 13 biblical passages that prescribe stoning as a punishment for various crimes. (The Catholic Encyclopedia says there are 18. Did I miss some? If so let me know so I can add another verse to the Everybody must get stoned song.) Here's a summary. 1. For touching Mount Sinai  Exodus 19:13 
2. For taking "accursed things"  Joshua 7:1-26 
3. For cursing or blaspheming  Leviticus 24:16 
4. For adultery (including urban rape victims who fail to scream loud enough)  Deuteronomy 22:23-24 
5. For animals (like an ox that gores a human)  Exodus 21:28 
6. For a woman who is not a virgin on her wedding night  Deuteronomy 22:13-21 
7. For worshipping other gods  Deuteronomy 17:2-5 
8. For preaching the wrong religion  Deuteronomy 13:5-10 
9. For disobeying parents  Deuteronomy 21:18-21 
10. For witches and wizards  Leviticus 20:27 
11. For giving your children to Molech  Leviticus 20:2 
12. For breaking the Sabbath  Numbers 15:32-56 
13. For cursing the king  1 Kings 21:10 
I thought it would be interesting to see how many times, and for what offenses, the Quran prescribed death by stoning.
The answer is zero. The Quran does not mention stoning as a punishment for any crime.
So what gives, then? Why is stoning a fairly common punishment in Islamic countries, but rare or nonexistent in Christian or Jewish ones?
Posted by Steve Wells at 9/22/2006 01:54:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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15 comments:
 jake3988 said...
Beats me. But that's a good point. Religion is weird.
its certainly strange, I must say.

Granted, I must say I'm thankful jews don't go around stoning those of other religions... but its certainly puzzling.
Fri Sep 22, 05:36:00 PM 2006 
 Bacon Eating Atheist Jew said...
Isn't the Koran an offshoot of the OT and NT? Muslims just use what appeals to them from those bibles.
Tue Sep 26, 07:46:00 AM 2006 
 michael mills said...
Steve Wells' question is based on a false assumption, namely that stoning is a fairly common punishment in Islamic countries.
I would challenge Steve Wells to post some hard evidence that infliction of death by stoning is a common official practice in many Islamic countries, ie something done by the legal authorities and not just by lynch mobs. In other words, give us some statistics of the number of executions carried out by stoning.
I know for a fact that in practically all states with a Muslim population, the criminal law is based on European models, either British or the Code Napoleon, and that Muslim religious law is only used in civil cases eg matters relating to marriage, divorce, inheritance etc (in much the same way as in the State of the Jewish People civil law is administered by the religious authorities of the different communities).
Fri Oct 13, 05:55:00 PM 2006 
 Steve Wells said...
Michael Mills,
So stoning is not a fairly common form of punishment in Islamic countries? Well, it is in Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Nigeria.
Do you know of any non-muslim countries that stone people to death?
Thu Oct 26, 10:48:00 AM 2006 
 Ba`al Zebhubh said...
Steve,
Stoning is prescribed in the hadith, because apparently Mohammed was very fond of it. It's one of the few (possibly only) examples of a hadith abrogating a verse from actually Qur'an.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoning_to_Death_in_Islam
Mon Oct 30, 04:43:00 PM 2006 
 Islam said...
Bible or Quran? "Is Anything From God - Really?" "Can You Help Me?"
http://bibleislam.com/bible_vs_quran.php
Sun Jan 13, 08:20:00 AM 2008 
 gk said...
It appears at least in Iran, that stoning only occurs for capital crimes in addition to adultery, your cit:
"A woman, identified as Mahboubeh M., and a man, identified as Abbas H., had been convicted of committing adultery and murdering the woman's husband. Activists say that before the two were stoned to death, they were treated like "lifeless corpses." They were given final ablutions and then buried in a hole in the ground. Reports claim that more than 100 members of Iran's Revolutionary Guard and Basij paramilitary forces participated in the stoning. "
Wed Apr 30, 10:08:00 PM 2008 
 Rachael Scott said...
The answer is that humankind (I would say "men") are corrupt and they go about doing all sorts of disgusting acts against their own kind, all in the name of Allah (swt) for whom they have no authority to speak.
Fri Mar 13, 10:33:00 AM 2009 
 J92185 said...
First thank you Ginasong for sharing the gospel with these misguided individuals. You guys are saying "what kindof God would stone people?"... I have a different question for you- What kind of God would forgive such sinful wicked wretched creatures as us "while we were yet sinners" & offer his own son for a sacrifice for us? You are all in rebellion with your creator- the very one who created you, loves you and died for you. If I were God and thank him that I'm not because I would have stoned a lot more people. You're acting as if they didn't deserve it and God has wronged them in some way. No. What we don't deserve is his mercy grace forgiveness love kindness and dieing to atone for our sins against him. Think about it... Why are you so angry with God?
Mon Mar 23, 10:22:00 AM 2009 
 Suraya said...
Being a Muslim, I will still say that stoning is mentioned in the Quran and it is not just a combination from the OT and NT. It is done for the adulterers and only in that circumstance. http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090403121155AAOtliB please read the whole blog...explains a lot. but there is a typo. its not about pre-marital sex its spesifically adultry.
Thu Jun 11, 05:52:00 AM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
Suraya,
Where is stoning mentioned in the Quran? (I'm not asking for a link here, but for the sura and ayah.)
Thu Jun 11, 07:53:00 AM 2009 
 steppa101 said...
My sister Suraya is in error and she needs to study her religion. The injunction for stoning the adulterer is found in the ahaadeeth. Islaam has not been borrowed from the OT nor NT. It is a continuation of the pure religion the was practiced by Abraham, Issac and Jacob and Jesus, son of Mary, without the innovations and inclusions of paganistic practices. Steve Wells, I think at one point in your life you claimed to be Muslim?
Thu Jun 18, 11:35:00 PM 2009 
 johan said...
"It is a continuation of the pure religion the was practiced by Abraham, Issac and Jacob and Jesus"
Really?
1. "Whoever thinks that Allah will not give Muhammad victory should go hang himself"
2. "Allah destroyed the people in Lot 's town with a dreadful rain"
- oh goodness, Yahweh/Allah cannot remember how he got the job done?
3. "Allah will taunt the Christians in hell, saying: Where are all my partners that you used to believe in?"
- Allah will do this to people who misinterpreted Jesus' message? Perhaps allah should have asked his messenger to clarify the position, being all knowing and omnipotent and all that...
4. "Those in the Garden will drink delicious wine, while those in the Fire will drink boiling water that will tear apart their intestines. "
- Wine on earth is a no-no, in heaven its the big draw card?
5. "Those that Allah drowned in Noah's flood were then tortured forever in the Fire."
- allah hadnt mentioned that he had prepared the fire. Seems kind of immoral to drown people and then burn them forever without giving them advance warning dont you think?
Faith is fiction folks. Cut the crap, drop the delusion and dump dark age superstition, immorality, sexism and wishthinking on the scrap heap where it belongs.
Its immoral not to.
Sun Oct 04, 03:08:00 PM 2009 
 nima said...
Stoning is in the bible and in the torah but not in the Koran but it is in Islamic Hadith

Prophet Muhammad: Receive teaching from me, receive teaching from me. God has ordained that when a married male committing adultery with a married female, they shall receive one hundred lashes and be stoned to death. (Muslim: Book 17 : Hadith 419l)
Thu Jan 13, 06:15:00 PM 2011 
 Muslim2Christ said...
This is a very good question. Christians don't practice stoning, Muslims throughout the Middle East still do. The Bible has several verses enabling stoning in the Old Testament (not the New Covenant), and Islam, though has many barbaric verses in Quran, only directly commands stoning in the Hadith as an Abrogation (surah 2:106/Replacement verse or new teaching)to lashing adulterers 100 times.
Review this before continuing:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%208&version=NKJV
The Bible Teaches in John 8 that Jesus, God in flesh (John 8:58 & Exodus 3:13-15/Philippians 2:1-11), stopped the Religious Leaders from stoning a woman supposedly caught in the act of adultery by saying 'who without sin cast the first stone'. Furthermore, Jesus, the only one sinless, said he does not condemn her and made her confirm that no one else was there to condemn her too. Followers of Jesus aren't known for stoning people, because Jesus isn't known for stoning people. I'd suggest you if you are interested in more information about the Law, Grace, and Why the OT said Stone and the NT doesn't to go to www.gatewaypeople.com/sermons
-They have the best teaching on the subject- look for the series called "Overwhelmed by Grace"

Islam and Stoning:
Narrated Ash-Sha'bi: from 'Ali when the latter stoned a lady to death on a Friday. 'Ali said, "I have stoned her according to the tradition of Allah's Apostle."
Sahih Bukhari 8:82:803
The same hadith, narration, that teaches Muslims how to Pray (Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 10, Number 500) teaches Muslims from 1400 years ago to now to stone adulterers.
A Comprehensive List
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur'an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Stoning
Christians today don't stone because they are convicted as guilty themselves and have been bought into a new covenant by Christ, however Muslims deny Christ and following a religion that came 600 years after that seeks redemption of honor by killing someone with a few witnesses (whether truthful or not). Women are usually the victims.
I also suggest seeking out this movie as it has done much to draw attention to the epidemic and the cries of the victims:
The Stoning of Soroya:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAHdWmTBtR4&feature=related
I'm involved in Humanitarian Aid in the Middle East and have teams documenting atrocities, such as these...
If you are a praying person--please pray.
Tue Apr 24, 09:07:00 PM 2012 
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Dwindling In Unbelief



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 21 September 2006Biblical Justice: Everybody must get stoned
(To the tune of Bob Dylan's "Rainy Day Woman #12 & 35")
Well, they'll stone you if you touch the holy things.
Whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death. Exodus 19:13
They'll stone you if you take accursed things.
Achan ... took of the accursed thing. ... And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones. ... So the LORD turned from the fierceness of his anger. Joshua 7:1-26
They'll stone you if you if you curse or blaspheme.
And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him. Leviticus 24:16
They'll stone you if you're raped and do not scream.
If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city. Deuteronomy 22:23-24
But I would not feel so all alone. Everybody must get stoned.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, they'll stone you if you're an ox and gore a human.
If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned. Exodus 21:28
They'll stone you if you marry when not a virgin.
If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her ... and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: And the damsel's father shall say ... these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. ... But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die. Deuteronomy 22:13-21
They'll stone you if you worship other gods.
If there be found among you ... that ... hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them ... Then shalt thou ... tone them with stones, till they die. Deuteronomy 17:2-5
If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers ... thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 13:5-10
They'll stone you if you disobey your Pa.
If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother ... Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city ... And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 21:18-21
But I would not feel so all alone. Everybody must get stoned.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
They'll stone you if you if you're a wizard or a witch.
A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them. Leviticus 20:27
They'll stone you if you give Molech your kids.
Whosoever ... giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones. Leviticus 20:2
They'll stone you if you if you're a sabbath breaker.
They found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. ... And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones.... And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses. Numbers 15:32-56
They'll stone you if you curse the dictator.
Thou didst blaspheme God and the king. And then carry him out, and stone him, that he may die. 1 Kings 21:10
But I would not feel so all alone. Everybody must get stoned.
Posted by Steve Wells at 9/21/2006 11:38:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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22 comments:
 Ritchie Annand said...
That was pretty inspired *laugh*.
I'm glad it hasn't been a feature of the Western world per se for an extremely long time, but it's pretty sad that the proud tradition is still carried on in a few countries under Sharia law.
There's a link from Wikipedia with, as they say on the site, disturbing video of stoning happening in Iran.
I don't have the 'stones' to watch it, really :/
Thu Sep 21, 11:01:00 PM 2006 
 howling said...
What else can they do when they run out of stones? Oh, well. They can bomb you or gas you, better yet crap at you, although I still prefer when people just get stoned. Right on.
Fri Sep 22, 03:04:00 PM 2006 
 godisajokeDOTcom said...
Steve, it is said a woman loves a man with a sense of humor. I am a woman. You are a man--with a wicked sense of humor. You do the math :)
Sun Sep 24, 05:50:00 PM 2006 
 Anonymous said...
They'll stone you if you if you're a witch or a wizard.
They'll stone you if you give Molech your children.
The rhyme, such as it is, might work better thus:
"They'll stone you if you're a wizard or a witch;
They'll stone you if you give Molech your kids."
It's the one couplet of yours that doesn't quite fit, otherwise.
Mon Sep 25, 02:40:00 PM 2006 
 Steve Wells said...
Yeah, you're right. The wizard-Molech thing didn't work too well.
I've changed it to
"They'll stone you if you're a wizard or a witch;
They'll stone you if you give Molech your kids."
as you suggested. Thanks!
Tue Sep 26, 10:18:00 AM 2006 
 Bacon Eating Atheist Jew said...
You should add this video to your post.
Sun Oct 08, 05:10:00 AM 2006 
 beepbeepitsme said...
"Everybody Must Get Stoned"
http://beepbeepitsme.blogspot.com/2006/12/everybody-must-get-stoned.html
Mon Dec 18, 09:28:00 PM 2006 
 Anonymous said...
I was a little disappointed by the title. I read the article link 'Everyone should get stoned' not realising it was about religion : D
Tue Jan 02, 01:05:00 AM 2007 
 Brucker said...
That's freaking awesome!
Wed Apr 25, 11:42:00 AM 2007 
 Brother Slawson said...
Quite creative. I like the tune mixed with the themes. It got me to thinking though... how this "stoning civilization" compared to other "civilizations" at the time. Perhaps my history is a little off... but it seems having a list of rules, with consequences, and in writing... was quite advanced for the time period. Just a thought...
Thu Jun 28, 09:37:00 PM 2007 
 Michael said...
Stone with cannabis, instead.
Make peace, end war.
Sun Jan 13, 04:09:00 PM 2008 
 Jeffrey Stingerstein said...
Amazing. That was truly amazing. This is a great site!! I have linked you to my site: www.DisillusionedWords.com
Keep up the great work!!
Fri Feb 29, 06:53:00 AM 2008 
 Ginasong said...
Have you noticed that every single account about stoning posted is from the Old Testament? Yet, the most famous account in the Bible is actually from the New Testament but it doesn't fit in with the point the blogger is wanting to make because the one stoned to death is a Christian. His name was Stephen and he saw a vision of Jesus standing up for him in heaven while he was being stoned. It was the non-Christians who stoned him. And yes, that does fit right in with what happens even today in Iran. If you don't believe me, you can actually see live video of it. But you won't find a video of a real Christian stoning anyone, yet Old Testament scriptures are being used here to refute Christianity. Interesting, but it still doesn't make you, the blogger not accountable because you knowingly twisted Bible facts.
Fri Jul 04, 11:23:00 AM 2008 
 foreverdrone said...
That's the "most famous" account?
What about when Jesus dispels the mob, saying:
He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
Ah, but the account of Stephen's vision of Christ while being stoned is so much more well-known! I must be a statistical oddity, having never heard of it until now.
I wonder, then, why this other passage hasn't also been the source of a familiar figure of speech, i.e. "cast the first stone."
Another puzzling phenomenon: how Christians excuse Jehovah's bloodthirsty and genocidal ways, saying, "Well, that was the Old Testament." Yet the Bible--divinely inspired in its entirety, so I've been told--still includes both the Old and New Testaments, so far as I know.
Sat Sep 06, 06:02:00 PM 2008 
 Ginasong said...
I was referring to the most famous accounts of people actually getting stoned. The account you refer to is about Jesus and is famous but it is not about anyone actually getting stoned.
The second point you make about God supposedly being bloodthirsty and how Christians try to "excuse" Him.
Well, that's a good point and it does take some study of the Bible to know why God wanted some people destroyed. We learn in early Genesis that "sons of men" came down and had sex with the women of the earth and produced offspring. Many believe these were the "gods" of mythology. The Bible even alludes to this also.
Anyway, this offspring was wicked being the product of disobedient angels who had turned from God. They were the ones who were bloodthirsty, many times sacrificing their own children. That is why God wanted them destroyed. They were only here to corrupt the earth and destroy God's creation like their leader, Satan.
Yet, the O.T. is not the only place where blood is spilled in a horrible manner. God's own Son, Jesus, was murdered. Man is so sinful, God had to make a way--an atonement for sin by the blood of Jesus. Through this covering, we are protected from the evil one who is still trying to destroy the world (and yes, it still is a bloody place full of evil.) We are united with God as His sons and daughters by the blood of Jesus. Praise God for His wonderful gift and that He cared that much for His creation.
Sun Sep 07, 06:39:00 PM 2008 
 C Woods said...
I loved this ---but now I can't get that tune out of my head.
Sat Feb 28, 11:38:00 PM 2009 
 Bob said...
LMAO
Somebody should record it and put it on Youtube.


PEACE
"All You Need Is LOve"
John Winston Lennon
Wed Apr 22, 12:06:00 PM 2009 
 shaunschon said...
Ginasong, what you're implying is that the god in the bible was too impotent or conceited to just forgive the sins of us sinners, but due to some sadomasochistic nature decided to send his son and kill him to save those sins. Does that really make any sense? Are you on drugs? You mention wicked beings being blood thirsty and ready to kill their own children, to me that sounds more like Abraham so blinded by religion that he was ready to slaughter his own child, and like Moses and the others quick to order the slaughter of races they conquered.
In the context of your other point, yes the Old testament is shockingly dark and with a god that is dubiously akin to a devil. So do Christians reject the old testament? Are you selective Christians? --- oooh I don't like this bit, it doesn't sound right but this bit sounds nice let me follow this not that... Sounds like a bunch of hypocrites governed by double standards to me.
And talking about the pagan gods of mythology. I hope you realize that Christianity has it's roots in pagan religions of the Mediterranean. The only difference between Christianity and the earlier religions was that they came and went, thus becoming mythology, while Christianity is simply a fossilized remnant of those myths.
Thu Oct 29, 01:55:00 AM 2009 
 Shawna said...
I'd like to get... oh, wrong kind of stoned. Damn.
Fri Nov 20, 09:33:00 AM 2009 
 Srinivasan said...
I second shaunschon's comment. Christianity is really a sun worship cult. Winter solistice used to be on Dec 25th some 2000 years ago, which is now celebrated as the birthday of Jesus. Oh, at one time, winter solistice used to occur on Jan 1st, hence the double dates of his alleged birth. Easter is a pre-Christian pagan harvest festival marking the spring equinox. The Son = the sun.
Wed Apr 21, 07:47:00 PM 2010 
 Demarlos said...
No heavenly father that is also all-good and benevolent would call for the stoning of anything. A perfect, omnipotent being would have found another way. As it stands, the god of the holy bible is flawed, defected, and has committed more sins than any one man could commit in a lifetime. He is morally, and might I add, intellectually bankrupt which very clearly reflects humanity's greatest weaknesses. Love is defined as the unselfish, loyal and benevolent concern for another. The god of the holy bible lacks this quality. Period.
Mon May 24, 06:48:00 AM 2010 
 Bethany said...
WOW! That was great! Not because I'm stoned...
ROFLMAO. Thank you!
Fri Aug 20, 03:37:00 PM 2010 
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Dwindling In Unbelief



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 20 September 2006Pope vs. Islam cartoons (and a modest proposal)
Here are some of my favorites. (More here)

"Violence is incompatible with the nature of God"? Then why doesn't the Pope remove all the cruel and violent passages in the Bible? Catholics have (thankfully) ignored them (along with most of the Bible) anyway. Why not use the Pope's infallibility to get rid of the bad stuff in the Bible for good?

A good place to start would be to remove 2 Chronicles 15:13. Such a verse "is incompatible with the nature of God" and therefore could not have been inspired by him (her, etc.)

Christians, Jews, and Muslims should either accept the fact that their religions are based upon violent texts or clean up those texts so they are no longer violent.
Posted by Steve Wells at 9/20/2006 09:18:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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4 comments:
 Anonymous said...
I don't think they can take time out of their lives to realize these things. The Muslims (excuse me; the radical Muslims--because the moderates are just sitting back and doing nothing) are busy bombing everything they can allude to Christianity, the Jews are busy trying to establish their own state (more religious conflicts, yay?), and the Christians are busy apologizing to Muslims as well as funding the Jews.
Wed Sep 20, 03:29:00 PM 2006 
 EliasAlucard said...
Great pictures! Loved the alien one.
Thu Sep 21, 02:42:00 PM 2006 
 Anonymous said...
Entertaining cartoons to say the least... but Catholics dont JUST have the Bible, there is the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which is the expression of the single interpretation bestowed upon it (and put in simple form for people to actually read). Generally, if your not aligned to that (the Catechism), you'd have a hard time justifying being Catholic (a la carte doesnt fly)...
So, there is no need for the Pope to even consider removing anything from the bible at all, as is perscribed by this slightly uninformed, but understandable (most people dont actually bother to look into the Cathechism) cartoon.
Its only after the rejection of the Church during the time of the protesting (where "protestant" comes from) against what some of the people were using it for (their own greed etc) and later tens of thousands of break-offs of that is where mass mis-interpretation occurs.
I dunno if this is a good analogy, but: I suppose its like stemcells protesting against a body and deciding to create their own. (thought not physically possible, bear with me)
So they go off, and give it a go, but since they arnt in the body anymore, they dont know what to become. Using what they learned previously, they try to create something similar, but are always missing things and disagreeing with eachother (leading to other "bodies" attempted to be created) and eventually you have heaps of "churches" all trying to be what they actually protested against in the first place.
So, you can see where from and why alot of mis-understanding occurs. Infact alot of people have named it the "Deformation" (as would describe these aforementioned "heaps") instead of the "Reformation", for understandable reasons.
I suggest reading it if you want the real Catholic interpretation of the Bible. I hope in doing so, he/she might find himself a little more comfortable with what is the belief of the Church. Otherwise, the slippery slope of relativism, and mis-interpretation awaits in door number 2 :)
As for Islam... they, as a whole. Arn't taking responsiblity for their extemists or those trying to stirr up hatred and violence.
At the moment, the majority, are peace-seeking people, who are bullied by the noisy and weapon toting minority. You might not imagine this as possible, but when the family is the centre of a belief, you can get people to do anything you want them to do with a descriptive and inclusive death threat.
The Islamic world will continue to be further polarised because of the extremists who basically control it. They have figured out a nice vicious cycle and continue to agitate it: Violence breeds violence, so they attack people to get a militairy/violent responce, then victimize themself to further polarise those who wernt originally extremists towards their cause. Thus growing their ranks.
Its about time they stopped crying about the crusades (you cant invade europe and expect people to just let you keep their land, same goes with Iraq), and demonizing the west. Those who sit on the gate and claim to stand for peace but dont try to stop the spreading of violence, are just helping it. Its like not standing up for a friend who is being bullied, your letting it happen, and are just as guilty. Take responsibility for these people, and stop telling the world what you think you stand for, and do something about it for once, take responsiblity!
Now concerning the Koran:
I have read many passages of the Koran, and the essence of what I get, is that it makes one despressingly tempermental bit of writing/prophecy (caring and charity one minue, but blatant acceptability for killing the next)
But it is absolutly awsome (in its efficiency/interpretational pliability) as a miliary/governmental idealogy.
What worries me, is how peace-loving muslims will be able to actually defend themselves against extremist interpretations. In essence, they cant, they can only accept it as "someone elses" interpretation and are suseptible to its influences because they dont stand against it. This means, that you can manipulate people into doing what your own needs require quite easily, without much trouble.
I suppose to finish this off, it would be appropriate for the following idealogical ouline comparison, just for a tidbit of intention.
1. Judaism - Always a closed, respectable following that was given to only for a select tribe of people who grew slowly over time, never openly converting and accepting others into their faith. They avoided inter-faith marriges and tried to keep their community as preserved as possible. Possibility of violence, minimal, except if provoked.
2. Christianity - Born out of Judaism, to both fulfull the promises that were made to the Jews, and to accept everyone, with a universal teaching. Is openly preached, taught and people's conversions should be by choice and discernment. "Love thy enemy" being a forefront of belief. Philosophy and theology being intertwined and used to find greater meaning (not altering the essence or ideal, but to explain them to a changing society with more depth and vigor) to messages.
3. Islam - Also seen internally as a universal teaching, for everyone, but actually has methods of spreading (jusitifed by writings) that arn't contained to words or verbal and spiritual challenges (hint hint). Accepts the Koran without question, Philosophy doesn't adhere to Islamic intentions. The "accept or die" policy; being openly enforced by the fact that those who leave Islam are open season to being murdered. This is fostered through the idea that those who do so are dead anyways, and they are saving them the suffering of living.
I hope all of this has a little bit of insight.
Thu Oct 12, 03:25:00 PM 2006 
 Pastor Andy said...
Excellent comments! I really like your post and comments on this. Un-biased and neutral, even fair, yet educated.
Although, on the comment about the Jews, true they worked hard to keep their traditions, you'll find that a huge number also are either very liberal, question the Scriptures' validity, or don't even believe in God altogether (though they continue to keep with the traditional holidays). But then, many Christians and Muslims also fit into this category.
I hope you're still posting! I look forward to reading more of your material.
Thu Sep 09, 09:35:00 PM 2010 
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 powered by 
 A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
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Dwindling In Unbelief



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 18 September 2006Holy War and the Holy Father: the Bible vs the Quran
Believers ... shall slay and be slain. It is a promise ... in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. -- Quran 9:111
Pope Benedict should have known better. When it comes to holy war and other "evil and inhuman" things, the Bible and the Quran are pretty evenly matched.
Here are some evil and inhuman holy war instructions from the Quran.
Slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out ... if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. 2:191
Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you. 2:216
Fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward. 4:74
Those who believe do battle for the cause of Allah; and those who disbelieve do battle for the cause of idols. So fight the minions of the devil. 4:76
They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them. 4:89
If they keep not aloof from you nor offer you peace nor hold their hands, then take them and kill them wherever ye find them. Against such We have given you clear warrant. 4:91
The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom. 5:33
I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger. 8:12
When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless manoeuvring for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end. Ye (Muslims) slew them not, but Allah slew them. And thou (Muhammad) threwest not when thou didst throw, but Allah threw. 8:15-17
And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others beside them whom ye know not. Allah knoweth them. 8:59-60
Exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a hundred (steadfast) they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence. 8:65
It is not for any prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land. 8:67
Slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. 9:5
If they ... assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief ... Will ye not fight a folk who broke their solemn pledges, and purposed to drive out the messenger and did attack you first? What! Fear ye them? Now Allah hath more right that ye should fear Him, if ye are believers Fight them! Allah will chastise them at your hands, and He will lay them low and give you victory over them. 9:12-14
O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. 9:73
Believers ... shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain. It is a promise which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. 9:111
O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you. 9:123
Now when ye meet in battle those who disbelieve, then it is smiting of the necks. 47:4
And here are some from the Bible.
The Lord is a man of war. Exodus 15:3
The LORD hath sworn that the LORD will have war with Amalek from generation to generation. Exodus 17:16, Deuteronomy 25:19
And the LORD said unto Moses, Fear him not: for I have delivered him into thy hand, and all his people ... So they smote him, and his sons, and all his people, until there was none left him alive: and they possessed his land. Numbers 21:34-35
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites ... And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males. And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones ... And they burnt all their cities....
And Moses was wroth with the officers ... And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. Numbers 31:1-18

And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain: Deuteronomy 2:33-34
And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them. Deuteronomy 7:2, 7:16
If thou shalt hear say ... Certain men ... saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known ... Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword. Deuteronomy 13:12-15
When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it ... And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: But the women ... shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee. ... But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth: But thou shalt utterly destroy them ... as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee. Deuteronomy 20:10-17
And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword. Joshua 6:21
So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded. Joshua 10:40
For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the LORD commanded Moses. Joshua 11:20
Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. 1 Samuel 15:2-3
Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. Psalm 2:8-9
He teacheth my hands to war. Psalm 18:34
That thy foot may be dipped in the blood of thine enemies, and the tongue of thy dogs in the same. Psalm 68:23
Blessed be the LORD my strength which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. Matthew 10:34
He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36
So which holy book wins the Pope's holy war contest? I guess it depends on who is keeping score.
Posted by Steve Wells at 9/18/2006 03:54:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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33 comments:
 beepbeepitsme said...
Great post.
Have you seen this?
RE : The Exodus
Atheist On The Bible Part2: Moses
http://beepbeepitsme.blogspot.com/2006/09/atheist-on-bible-part2-moses.html
Mon Sep 18, 09:49:00 PM 2006 
 jake3988 said...
There's a movie on Atheist On the Bible. (And its sequal, which is what you have pointed out). Pretty good, but nitpicking genesis is a lot better.

Anyway, Joshua 11:20 is one of those verses I just HATE. It truely shows what a cruel deity the christian god is.
Tue Sep 19, 10:18:00 AM 2006 
 Anonymous said...
For the record...
"Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you."
...is incompatible with fascism, which treats war as a glorious activity, not a necessary evil. Taken sincerely, "Islamo-fascist" is a contradiction in terms. (Among their other faults.)
BTW, this is my first visit here; I went to SAB regularly back before blogs were invented.
Tue Sep 19, 09:00:00 PM 2006 
 Fred Ludd said...
Comparing the sanity of Christians against that of Moslems, based on religious texts alone, is always going to give the Christians the edge simply because Islam accepts Jesus as an important prophet: i.e., the Christian Gospels are part of Islamic religious heritage, but they've topped it off with even more foolishness. Doesn't mean much, though. It's like the difference between hallucinating pink elephants and hallucinating plaid elephants.
Wed Sep 20, 02:54:00 AM 2006 
 dynabaul said...
It seems to me the Bible is talking more about war and evil that has happened. It's telling you about evil things were done. Where the Quran is telling you when and why you are to commit evil. It's telling you to go and kill and do evil and for what reasons to do so.
Wed Sep 20, 06:30:00 AM 2006 
 Anonymous said...
Sigh.
Please take the time to read to what the Pope *actually said*, not what people are saying he said.
The Pope quoted from a centuries-old dialog to prove the point that faith without reason is destructive. The inflammatory quote is plucked from that dialog.
However, you're right about the Bible having parts where the Israelites are commanded to commit genocide. It's frightening how the church kind of glosses over these parts.
Wed Sep 20, 09:19:00 AM 2006 
 Anonymous said...
This is silly. No one is arguing the OT isnt violent. I think its important to point out that Christainity is based on the New Testement, in which Jesus said "FORGET ALL THAT OT BS....DIS IS THE NEW STYLE."
Also...the qoutes from the OT are directed at a certain enemy. From what I have read in the Quran...it kill the non beleivers from page 1.
Wed Sep 20, 12:00:00 PM 2006 
 Anonymous said...
Actually more from page 2. Page 1 just sets up the fires.
Wed Sep 20, 12:03:00 PM 2006 
 Anonymous said...
Religious skeptics who wish to condemn religions because of the historical propensity of their adherents to engage in war and/or genocide would do well to consider that tens of millions more human beings were killed in wars and through the genocide and democide of atheistic and secular ideologies growing out of the so-called Enlightenment that found root in the French Revolution, Weimar Germany (WWI), Nazism/Fascism (WWII & Holocost), Soviet Union (Marxist-Leninism) and Communist China (Moaist-Marxism), Po Pot's Cambodia, etc.
Thu Sep 21, 10:31:00 AM 2006 
 jake3988 said...
"FORGET ALL THAT OT BS....DIS IS THE NEW STYLE."
Obviously you never read the bible then, mr. anonymous. Because Jesus never once says that.
In fact, he says this:
Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
This is just one of a few times he says this. He even critizes the pharisees for not murdering their disobidient children from the law of the OT.
Thu Sep 21, 07:15:00 PM 2006 
 Anonymous said...
Look, here's the difference:
the Bible speaks of waging war against evil on the whole--all the misfortune that had befallen people have arisen due to their acts of evil,
whereas the Quran seems to me, to speak of 'punishing' or killing disbelievers, people who simply do NOT suscribe to their religion, as opposed to 'punishing' acts of evil per se.
Fri Sep 22, 01:58:00 AM 2006 
 raf said...
it's still surprising to notice that, despite demonstrations through the texts, some people keep on refusing to admit that both religions are violent and encourage murder against sinners and disbelievers, men or women or "little ones."
Oh and by the way I think that there was a religious aspect to the Holocaust thing (maybe this idea comes frome the fact that 6 millions Jews were slaughtered...)
Fri Sep 22, 02:46:00 AM 2006 
 sublimereason.com said...
"This is silly. No one is arguing the OT isnt violent. I think its important to point out that Christainity is based on the New Testement, in which Jesus said "FORGET ALL THAT OT BS....DIS IS THE NEW STYLE."
Also...the qoutes from the OT are directed at a certain enemy. From what I have read in the Quran...it kill the non beleivers from page 1."
Apparently, you have not read the NT (Jesus explicitly declares himself the messiah prophesized in the OT and who has come to fulfill the legacy of the OT) and you have not read the Koran. It is not kill the disbelievers from page 1. You are simply repeating what you've probably heard. So before making a comment make sure you have actually read what you are talking about. Both religions are extremely violent, but if people decide to follow them indicates that they have more to offer. Anyways if we base both religions' violence purely on bodycount, Christianity kicks Islam's ass by a lot (and by a lot I mean millions).
cheers,
www.sublimereason.com
Wed Sep 27, 12:56:00 PM 2006 
 JeffXL said...
Ah, another dishonest believer. Hitler was a Christian, as were his willing executioners... as well as the clergy of all the franchises.
What was bad about Weimar? Oh, and while religionists have killed and tortured in the name of God, no one has done so in the name of atheism. For the State, for whatever ideology, ad nauseum, it has happened.
Stop lying!
Mon Oct 02, 11:49:00 AM 2006 
 Anonymous said...
Lost in history and detail, and no essence of ideals...
That will just blind you to repeat the mistakes of the past.
"Love thy enemy"
- Something to do
"Live by the sword, die by the sword"
- Something to avoid
I suppose, based on his New Testament interpretations, the writer of the "Holy War and the Holy Father: the Bible vs the Quran" Would probably believe that the "Legion of Mary" is a Christian military group...
Living a Christian life has always been refered to as a battle, and a fight, with weapons and devices to use to our advantage (prayers, devotions, angels, saints, etc..); because we are always battling our fallen nature/vices and tendancy to get lost in destructive habits and ideals.
The cross, which is taken up by Christ, is his burden, his sacrafice for us. So, as Christians , we are asked to follow that ideal in our lives and do the same, and to fight the temptations to lie down and give up, to accept less is to give in to the devil (explains Jesus's references to Peter as the devil when he tries to talk Jesus out of it). Its always a fight, life is always a struggle, which is why personal responsibility and looking after others is taught by the Church and is the hardest thing to do...
Convieniently most of the time, the hardest thing to do, is the right thing to do.
Thu Oct 12, 03:57:00 PM 2006 
 Anonymous said...
Btw about the video:
vi·o·lence
- Physical force exerted for the purpose of violating, damaging, or abusing: crimes of violence.
- Abusive or unjust exercise of power.


Now lets look at this and think, since God created everything, surely only he has the just right to take away (Aka end-of the world/apocalypse)?
The person's understandably human perception of violence is just that, a human perception of a wrong act, an act which humans have no right to do, and tries to replace God with a human being.
Only God has ever had the right to take or end life, and that is why we are so naturally against killing and murder, it goes against what we expect to be right, which has been implanted into our concience by God. Which also eludes to the natural inclination, that we should live to serve God, not just ourselves, because it is right to do so and is nessesary for a full human existance (happyness).
How can God damage, violate and abuse something that only exists because he is here to let it be so?
We can't suppose to deny his right, just because we try to judge his actions based on our primitive ways of thinking and levels of living. We are created in the image, but are not gods, we are just dust and ash.
So, the Pope is not wrong in saying that, nor is anyone else who shares that ideal.
The maker of that video thinks that apathy and lack of caring is what will save the world, when it will just do the opposite, and you will notice; as the world becomes more obsessed with money and self-indulgent "freedom" and "individuality" that we will lose more and more of our humanity and true freedom to a more cynical and clinical world.
Thu Oct 12, 04:31:00 PM 2006 
 michael mills said...
Excuse me, Jake 3988.
Joshua 11:20 is supposed to demonstrate the cruelty of the CHRISTIAN god?
I thought it was the Jewish God who commanded the genocide described in the Book of Joshua.
Or to be more historically accurate, it was Jewish political leaders in ancient times who devised a genocidal ideology and attributed it to a fictional entity, Yahveh, who supposedly commanded the Jews to exterminate other peoples who just happened to be living on territory that the Jews wanted for themselves.
Fri Oct 13, 05:08:00 PM 2006 
 michael mills said...
Excuse me, Jeffxl.
Hitler was a Christian?
Only in the same way that Trotsky was a Jew.
Both were born into their respective religious cultures and absorbed the ideologies of those cultures. But both rejected and turned against the belief-systems and moral structures of their religions.
If Jews continue to claim that Hitler and the evils perpetrated by him originated in the Christian religion, its teachings and the culture based on it, then they must accept responsibility for the two ideologies created by the "Red Rabbi" Moses Hess (Communism and Zionism) and the Jews who followed in his footsteps, Marx, Trotsky, and others, and all the evils flowing from those ideologies.
It is also quite false to claim that killing and torture were never perpetrated in the name of atheism. In the early days of the Bolshevik regime in Russia, a State-supported society for the propagation of atheism was created; its function was the persecution of all forms of religious belief and organisation, and its functionaries did imprison and kill believers who resisted, in particualr religious leaders and teachers.
The society for promoting atheism was headed by militant atheist Bolsheviks of Jewish origin. It directed its wrath primarily against the Russian Orthodox Church and other Christian sects, although observant Jews were also targeted (in much the same way as some German National Socialists from a Christian background, eg Bormann, became violently anti-religious and agitated for persecution of Christian believers).
The imprecation to stop lying is one that Jeffxl would do well to observe himself.
Fri Oct 13, 05:28:00 PM 2006 
 pabure2002 said...
The Quran is equally evil to the OT of the bible, but not the New Testament and you guys should know that. I’ve never heard of the New Testament saying it’s ok to kill, but if it does, please let me know.
Mon Oct 23, 05:53:00 PM 2006 
 Chris Creek said...
Humans are the only creatures on this planet that commit suicide. Why? We have something the rest of the creatures do not... Some call it higher knowledge, some an eternal soul, some a belief in a higher power. It all comes down to one word, Choice... What will you chose? Christ? Self? False Gods? After all if you are right, and your an Atheist, then you have nothing to gain and everything to lose. Logically, Christ is the only choice.
Wed Nov 01, 04:23:00 AM 2006 
 Sophia said...
On the other hand Jesus never told his followers to kill those who do not repent.
Mt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, all power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Ex 20:13 Thou shalt not Murder.
Lu 6:27 But I say unto you, which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you.
(This scripture is for individuals and not for nations as a whole. God in the Old Testament allowed Israel to destroy wicked nations.)
Wed Nov 01, 12:47:00 PM 2006 
 Anonymous said...
Love your enemy... Love does not always mean harmony or peace or happiness or roses and chocolate. I love my kids... sometimes they get punished. To them punishment is not love, however to me punishment can save their lives. If we love our enemies and go to war with them because we are punishing them for killing innocents or likewise scenerios then I say it's a just war and we are doing the right thing. If we go to war for greed or political differences then we deserve punishment. Any religion that says join us or die is wrong. "Cleansing the infidel" is not an acceptable means of growing one's faith and beliefs.
Sat Dec 09, 04:51:00 AM 2006 
 Anonymous said...
It is easy enough to study text and draw conclusions about the intentions behind it. Perhaps e ought also to consider that without any relationship with the author, we resort to much speculation, which is filtered by our own conditioning - much like studying poetry in secondary school English classes!
The OT killings were to protect a bigger plan of redemption that God had for mankind, not some self righteous crusade by a wicked God.
In the Bible, God starts to work out the redemption of mankind who has fallen away from Him and is separated from Him by fear and condemnation. He tells Abraham (In Gen 12, 1-3) that He will bless ALL nations of the earth through him. As a loving, grieving Father, He wants to recover the sons he has lost. He does this without violating His principles of justice. Man has embodied a condition that He had judged and condemned, namely sin. God is not fickle like us and cannot change His words to suit circumstance so He works out a redemption in the midst of it. Our sin will not go unpunished. Instead, He himself will send His perfect Son, a complete representation of Him and a worthy sacrifice (the guilty can't redeem the guilty after all!) to pay for the sin. All we need to do is accept that work of Christ and we are free to be reconciled in full relationship with Him. The killings in the OT were not gratuitous. There was a bigger picture in mind - ensuring that the context that God had chosen to receive the Saviour of all humanity came to maturity so that all of mankind would have the opportunity of redemption and reconciliation. Those that were killed were those that sought to in any way hinder the journey of Israel to that point in history where the Saviour could be sent. Note that God also killed part of Israel when He believed that there were elements that were so rebellious that they would remain a hinderance to this bigger redemption plan (Num 16 for instance) Once the Saviour had been born, the only killing God endorsed was His own. The bottom line is that God loves (John 3, 16) but love does not always look like it is depicted in Hollywood and sometimes, often, we find that difficult.
Mon Jan 15, 02:21:00 AM 2007 
 Abdulla said...
Here is the actual Qur'anic verses you have given, but with context and emphasis added only to understand those verses better.

(1):
2.190 Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.
2.191 And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.
2.192 But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
(2):
Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you. 2:216
Warfare was not allowed for Muslims. Muslims had been being tortured for thirteen years at Mecca. Allah commanded them to go to the city of Medina, not to fight back. But the torturers came to Medina too. Then Allah commanded them to fight for their defence. But the Muslims were no more than 300 in number at the same time oppressors were thousands. Most of the Muslims in Medina were farmers. They feared of such a mighty war. But Muslims had to go to war.
(3):
Fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward. 4:74
Here is the next verse of the above. Is it still evil? No, It is fair.
And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!" 4:75
(4):
Those who believe do battle for the cause of Allah; and those who disbelieve do battle for the cause of idols. So fight the minions of the devil. 4:76
Here is the translation by Abdulla Yusuf Ali, which is more accurate:
Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan: feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan. 4:76
(5):
They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them. 4:89
(6):
If they keep not aloof from you nor offer you peace nor hold their hands, then take them and kill them wherever ye find them. Against such We have given you clear warrant. 4:91
Allah didn't say, "Oh! you guys must kill innocent people without any reason." Did He?!
(7):
The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom. 5:33
As long as they are not making war upon Allah and His messenger and striving after corruption in the land they are safe and they will have their hands and feet unharmed.
(8):
I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger. 8:12
This verse was revealed to prophet when Muslims(most of them farmers, weak and had not experienced a war before) were going to their first war against their oppressors. They had no knowledge of warfare. If there were guns used in the warfare at that time, this verse will be different. (Just think about it :)
(9):
When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless manoeuvring for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end. Ye (Muslims) slew them not, but Allah slew them. And thou (Muhammad) threwest not when thou didst throw, but Allah threw. 8:15-17
Here is a lesson for them: "Don't turn your back in war." It is shame and if you do so, then next second you are a dead meat.
(10):
And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others beside them whom ye know not. Allah knoweth them. 8:59-60
Will you please tell me what the evil things in this verses are?
(11):
Exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a hundred (steadfast) they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence. 8:65
This verse was revealed to prophet when Muslims(most of them farmers, weak and had not experienced a war before) were going to their first war against their oppressors. They had no knowledge of warfare.
(12):
It is not for any prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land. 8:67
Here is the translation by Abdulla Yusuf Ali, which is more accurate:
It is not fitting for a prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he hath thoroughly subdued the land. Ye look for the temporal goods of this world; but Allah looketh to the Hereafter: And Allah is Exalted in might, Wise. 8:67
Don't have captives until Allah gives permission to.
(13):
Slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. 9:5
This verse was revealed to prophet when a treaty between the Muslims and the oppressors was disregarded by the oppressors. They killed some Muslims in a month in which warfare was forbidden for Muslims. Muslims had to wait until Allah gives instructions for them. Anyway, here is the verse after the above.
If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge. 9:6
(14):
If they ... assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief ... Will ye not fight a folk who broke their solemn pledges, and purposed to drive out the messenger and did attack you first? What! Fear ye them? Now Allah hath more right that ye should fear Him, if ye are believers Fight them! Allah will chastise them at your hands, and He will lay them low and give you victory over them. 9:12-14
Above verses in full.
And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist. Will ye not fight a folk who broke their solemn pledges, and purposed to drive out the messenger and did attack you first? What! Fear ye them? Now Allah hath more right that ye should fear Him, if ye are believers. Fight them! Allah will chastise them at your hands, and He will lay them low and give you victory over them. 9:12-14
(15):
O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. 9:73
I don't like hypocrites! Do you?
(16):
Believers ... shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain. It is a promise which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. 9:111
Abdulla Yusuf Ali, in his interpretation of Qur'an, says:
In a human bargain both sides give something and receive some advantage. In the divine bargain of Allah with man, Allah takes man's will and soul and his wealth and goods, and gives him in return ever-lasting Felicity.
(17):
O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you. 9:123
Abdulla Yusuf Ali, in his interpretation of Qur'an, says:
When conflicts become inevitable, the first thing is to clear our surroundings of all evil, for it is only evil that we can rightly fight. To evil we must put up a stout and stiff resistance. Mealy-mouthed compromises are not right for soldiers of truth and righteousness. They are often a compound of cowardice, weariness, greed, and corruptibility.
(18):
Now when ye meet in battle those who disbelieve, then it is smiting of the necks. 47:4
That verse in full:
Now when ye meet in battle those who disbelieve, then it is smiting of the necks until, when ye have routed them, then making fast of bonds; and afterward either grace or ransom till the war lay down its burdens. That (is the ordinance). And if Allah willed He could have punished them (without you)but (thus it is ordained) that He may try some of you by means of others. 47:4
This verse also contains a command from Allah that the captives of war must not be killed.
Now compare the above verse with this:
And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them. Deuteronomy 7:2, 7:16
---------------
It is fair to read Qur'an in a historical context. And I hope that next time you will consider reading Qur'an that way. Thank you for your time to read and study Qur'an because most of the 'critiques' of Qur'an don't even try to read it.
Mon Jan 15, 05:22:00 AM 2007 
 Anonymous said...
read the 2:191 and continue to 2:192 obviously you did not understand what you quoted .
Mon Feb 05, 03:40:00 AM 2007 
 Abdilla said...
The 2:191 is the continuation of the verse 2:190. Just read it >>
[2.190] And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.
--------------
Thank you!
Mon Feb 12, 05:26:00 PM 2007 
 Anonymous said...
Man created GOD in his own image, so I don't see why all this creul inhumane violence is unexpected !
Tue Feb 13, 04:03:00 AM 2007 
 Anonymous said...
> Anonymous said...
> It is easy enough to study text and draw conclusions about the intentions behind it. ...
> The OT killings were to protect a bigger plan of redemption that God had for mankind, not some self righteous crusade by a wicked God.
So killing is Ok when it's for the "greater good" then?
Remind me to run if I see you with a rucksack....
Sun Feb 25, 06:19:00 AM 2007 
 mommymichael said...
let's go to sources of Islam and Christianity and see what they have to say about violence and peaceful coexistence with people practicing other religions.
in doing a little bit of research it would seem that..
"Muhammad's teaching on warfare developed after he conquered Mecca in 630 A. D. Most of the pagans living in the city became Muslims. At that time Muhammad was able to take over the city and cleanse the Ka'aba (sacred shrine) of some 360 idols resident there.
At this point it became evident to Muhammad that Jews and Christians would not accept him as prophet, so they became part of the list of Islam's enemies to be conquered. Thus, warfare was no longer to be a defensive fighting, but an aggressive Jihad against all unbelievers. This is the final teaching of the Koran which is still in force today and has inspired the recent acts of terrorism."
hmmmm
so what this is saying is, to say that Islam is a religion of peace, means to ignore the example and teachings of Muhammad.
"google university" is teaching me that he fought all the pagans, Jews, and Christians in Saudi Arabia, until he subdued them, forcing them to accept Islam. What Muhammad did is reflected in what he taught about fighting and slaying the infidels.
The claim that Islam is a peace-loving religion, is openly contradicted by the Koran that reads like a "terrorism for dummies" book.
okay so let's go to google university again and look up the koran. maybe someone can tell me more about these if i'm taking them out of context. http://quod.lib.umich.edu/k/koran/browse.html
"O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk." [al-Ma'idah 5:51.11]
"Fight those of the disbelievers who are close to you, and let them find harshness in you" [al-Tawbah 9:123]
Slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. 9:5

now before you do it, i'll do it... what about violence in the bible?
flat out, christians who have resorted in violence to advance god's kingdom, cannot justify themselves with the teachings or example of christ. in fact they've betrayed it.
christ chose to be crucified rather than to slay his enemies with the sheer power of his spoken word. and in the bible they taunted him for it while he was dying on the cross!!
he taught his followers to establish the kingdom of God, not through fighting, but through peace, and teaching about the saving grace of God.
so i'll say it again... christians have no biblical justification for using violence in the name of christ.
There is no question that they've used violence, torture, and military crusades to destroy "infidels" and "heretics," but those who committed these acts, betrayed the person and teaching of christ.
They turned the church into a "terroristic organization" acting against the teaching of christ who condemned the use of violence as a means to establish his Kingdom.
in fact as he was being led away from the garden, he told Peter who cut off the ear of the high priest's servant, "Put your sword back into its place; for all who take the sword will perish by the sword" (Matt 26:52).
so in essence while Muhammad commanded his followers to fight pagans, Jews and Christians until they were killed or subdued, Christ taught his disciples to endure persecution and pray for the persecutors.
"Blessed are you when men revile you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven . . . I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven" (Matt 5:11-12, 44,45).
christian faith turned the Roman world upside down by the sheer power of the grace of God manifested in the loving and forgiving attitudes of christians, who were willing to suffer and die for their faith.
By contrast, Islam conquered much of the Roman world during the first century of its expansion (632-732) (google university) by slaughtering a countless number of innocent people and forcing their faith upon the survivors.
What a difference! christ condemned the use of violence to promote the Christian faith, while Muhammad commanded the use of the sword to advance the cause of Islam.
so i'm going to quote another source because i questioned this as well when typing all this up... what about the book of josua in the bible and the violence it talks about?

"The Extermination of the Canaanites Was a Divine Punishment for their Wickedness. Some appeal to passages found in the book of Joshua regarding the extermination of various tribes living in Canaan, to argue that the Bible is sanctioning a "holy war" to promote the true worship of God.
The problem with this allegation is the failure to recognize that the extermination of the various tribes living in Canaan was a divine punishment for their wickedness, and not a method to convert them. Dead people cannot change their religion.. Like Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because their wickedness had reached the limits of God's mercy, so the tribes living in Canaan were exterminated on account of their sinfulness.
Hundreds of years before the invasion of Canaan, God told Abraham that his descendants would be sojourners in a foreign land for "four hundred years" (Gen 15:13), before they could settle in the land of Canaan. The reason given for this waiting period is clearly stated: "for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete" (Gen 15:16). In other words, God was willing to wait for several generations before exterminating the tribes living in Canaan, because their wickedness had not yet reached the limits of His mercy.
Later God warned the nation of Israel to be careful in not repeating the sins of the Canaanites, otherwise they would suffer a similar punishment. The warning was in vain. Eventually God used the Assyrian and Babylonians as the instrument of His justice to punish the people of Israel for their sinfulness, in the same way as He had used Israel as an instrument of His justice to purge the land of Canaan of its sinfulness."

so in the biblical account it says that God's holiness was manifested in the punishment of unrepentant sinners. This is missing in the koran about Muhammad's raid and wars. Instead, his motivation we constantly see is the spreading of the rule of Islam by destroying and looting the enemies.
one more point then i'll stop
the bible does not say to use holy wars to make people worship god.
nowhere in the Old or New Testaments does God command his people to attack pagan nations, either in self-defense or as a way to promote the true worship of God. The proclamation of salvation in the Bible is always by witnessing and persuasion.
Fri Jul 25, 04:24:00 PM 2008 
 Arie Sheyn said...
Actions are louder than words.
Islam has murdered 270-420 million people in 1,300 years.
Christians have murdered 30-50 million people in 2,000 years.
The Crusades were caused by Islamic invasion of the Byzantine Empire. Rome was asked to save the Byzantines.
People say Christians justified a slave trade.
Muslims justify a slave trade today. I won't go into the details of how much worse Black slaves have/had it under Muslims "mastership" than with Americans... it would make the most hateful KKK member faint from shock.
Mon Nov 23, 03:58:00 PM 2009 
 Can You DIstinguish The Good & The Bad? said...
Why havent you write about forgiveness and love ??? Compare them, and tell me which is a better book!
Wed Dec 23, 03:29:00 PM 2009 
 11-year old Atheist-Libertarian said...
'"Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you."
...is incompatible with fascism, which treats war as a glorious activity, not a necessary evil.'
--- Anonymous
If Allah is all-powerful than he could stop need for any necessary evils!
Also, Allah could stop people from doing non-necessary evils. He never seems to do that.
If Allah doesn't want to 'interfere w/free will' than he could at least stop the problem I present in my first sentence(of this comment).
Thu Feb 10, 07:10:00 PM 2011 
 Louis Farrakhan said...
I don't know whether you or the Mohammedan are worse.
Ezra REWROTE the Jewish Bible, added books of Myth i.e. Book of Esther, corrupted parts of the books of the Prophets (see Jeremiah ch 7; 8:8) added the Oral Tradition & created Talmudic Judaism, which Jesus CONDEMNED (Matthew ch 15; ch 19; ch 23; John 8:43-47.
There are 2 parts to the Quran - the Mecca & the Medina parts. The Mecca is ecumenical, because Muhammad was weak, but the Medina part is DICTATORIAL, because now Muhammad has an army behind him.
You cannot read the Quran from front to back, like most books, because it wasn't collated that way. The whole thing is a nightmare to read.
Sun Dec 02, 10:20:00 AM 2012 
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 01 September 2006Satan vs God: past and future killings
In previous posts, I've tried to total the number of people killed by God and Satan in the Bible, as well as provide some estimates of their future plans in that regard. Here's a table that summarizes the results. (Follow the links in the table for the details.)  God Satan
Total number killed (not including un-numbered killings) 2,301,417 10
Total killings (estimated) 33 million 60
Planned future killings 3,300,000,000 0
Posted by Steve Wells at 9/01/2006 06:14:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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22 comments:
 tc399 said...
Those numbers are incorrect by orders of magnitude. If one accepts that God gives life and takes it back, every living thing which has ever existed on earth or ever will exist are His victims. That number immediately goes into the trillions and that is simply counting human victims.
Sat Sep 02, 04:05:00 AM 2006 
 Steve Wells said...
tc399 said...
"Those numbers are incorrect by orders of magnitude."
Not if you're talking about the number of people killed in the Bible, which is what the table summarizes.
Sat Sep 02, 07:32:00 AM 2006 
 Marshal said...
If we're saying God gave life to all, then all can be slightly grateful for what little pleasure they were able to experience before God allowed them to die, or killed them himself. But really, athiests haven't been any kinder than the God of the Bible. Look at Stalin-responsible for about 50 million deaths/murders himself.
Fri Sep 15, 01:35:00 AM 2006 
 Seth said...
But wait. If you are a Christian, you're going to buy the line that through Satan, death came into the world. So then that means Satan killed everyone.
If you're an athiest, well then you don't believe any of this God nonsense. So then really who killed whom? Do parents get the blame? They created life through their reproduction, so then it's their fault their kids die. Or do we just blame entropy? After all, the laws of the universe say that things will slow down, break apart and disintegrate over time.
But why are we whining about death anyways? That's what happens. Things live. Things die. Do ants sit around questioning who killed whom? Maybe. Who knows.
Mon Sep 18, 05:11:00 PM 2006 
 Anonymous said...
But really, athiests haven't been any kinder than the God of the Bible. Look at Stalin-responsible for about 50 million deaths/murders himself.
Not that I like to be a pedant or ruin your lovely analogy but atheists don't worship Stalin and hold him up as an example of perfection. If christians agree that god is no better than stalin it begs the question as to why they worship him.
Thu Sep 21, 03:05:00 AM 2006 
 Anonymous said...
So how many has God killed in the old Testement verses the New Testement?
Sun Jan 07, 04:16:00 PM 2007 
 Anne Johnson said...
Isn't the definitive number for people allowed into heaven 144,000? Surely that quota has been filled by now.
Sat Feb 03, 02:50:00 PM 2007 
 Metro said...
144,000 in heaven is the limit?
There should be plenty of room then, as I can't think of more than a half-dozen souls who'd qualify.
Sun Feb 04, 11:12:00 AM 2007 
 Anonymous said...
"You're forgetting the temporal nature of "this" world and that death is meaningless in light of eternity
Aww sick! Il' just go around killing everyone then, giving them a shortcut to heaven! Oh wait, the bible say's I shouldn't do that...it seems to state that dealing death is bad. It seems to regard death as meaningfull in that sense.
"death is meaningless" seems to be being a bit blasphemous there friend :P.
You also seem to speak about such things as if they are absolute fact, when in reality, all your doing getting this infomation from a 10000 year old book.
No really, please can any christian tell me why I should belive in the aboslute/unliteral etc truth of the bible over that of Harry potter?
Thu Mar 01, 01:42:00 PM 2007 
 JtotheP said...
Jesus liked to answer the Pharisees with a question when they asked one...so i would like to see atheists answer this one. Prove to me that God doesn't exist.....
good luck.
Tue May 08, 01:14:00 PM 2007 
 Brucker said...
I can't believe I never thought of this before, but your body count for Satan turns out to be off by quite a bit: http://abunchofbiblediscussions.blogspot.com/2007/03/jobs-hidden-burden.html
Fri Jun 08, 12:03:00 PM 2007 
 NaLalina said...
to jtothep: If you believe that unicorns don't exist, prove to me that unicorns don't exist.
to brucker: hundreds or thousands killed by Satan is still less than millions or billions killed by God
Sun Oct 14, 08:23:00 AM 2007 
 Robert said...
You people arguing seriously about these numbers makes me want to add to that number starting with the top of this list. diaf plz
Thu Oct 25, 03:57:00 PM 2007 
 aaron said...
No matter what anyone says, creating something doesn't give you the right to kill it.
Sat Jan 19, 05:54:00 PM 2008 
 ramen said...
If I see one more use of the acronym "diaf," I'm going to ask God MYSELF to Sodomize the Internet. When I say Sodomize, I mean what God did to the city of Sodom, not what the marriage laws of America are doing to gays.
-shayn nicely
Sat Mar 29, 12:46:00 AM 2008 
 Becca H said...
where do your numbers come from?
Thu Oct 30, 06:48:00 PM 2008 
 Steve Wells said...
Becca H,
Just click on the link (the number) in the table and it will take you to a post that explains where the number came from.
Thu Oct 30, 07:08:00 PM 2008 
 josh said...
Marshal said... "Look at Stalin-responsible for about 50 million deaths/murders himself."
I realize your comment is very old at this point, but for the sake of anyone else that reads this garbage let me draw a distinction.
Steve's list includes killings by God or ordered by God. These killings were done "In God's name" so to speak. When you point to Stalin, you're arguing that a killing done by an atheist is equivalent to a killing ordered by God or condoned by God. That's a false equivocation! If you're going to take that position, then you must compare the murder committed by Stalin to any murder committed by a Christian. I don't think you want to go down that road as it would greatly inflate Steve's already monstrous numbers. Let's take, for instance, the holocaust. Hitler was a Roman Catholic, so even though one might debate whether his atrocities were divinely inspired or condoned, you cannot debate the fact that it was ordered by a Christian. Shall we discuss the Crusades? The French religion wars? The ongoing battle between Catholics and protestants in Ireland? Stick to Steve's methodology would be my advice. To do otherwise only digs you into a greater hole of tyranny.
Mon Dec 22, 03:49:00 PM 2008 
 J92185 said...
God vs. Satan... God has killed more people. I have a question for you. Who has SAVED more people? God gives abundant, eternal life. Satan leads people astray to death and eternal punishment and wrath.
I would rather die on the side of a God who saves then live for Satan who seduces people into destruction. If you aren't a child of God, then you are by default a child of Satan. "There is a way that seems right to a man, but leads to DEATH."
So yes, God has poured out wrath (that we deserve!), God has killed... but only that same God can save, only He holds the key to eternal life (which we don't deserve!).
You have a choice- God/life or Satan/death. "As for me and my household- we will serve the LORD"
Mon Mar 23, 01:59:00 PM 2009 
 Face said...
To J92185...Your rationalization is incorrect, because you rely on a fact that is not true. The blog author does not believe in Satan either. God/Satan is the same made up story. The author was just trying to make a point when comparing the acts of God and Satan as portrayed in the Bible, which also happens to be a book of fairytales. In sum, there is no Satan and there is no God, just people's imagination.
Mon Apr 27, 03:09:00 PM 2009 
 Ana Lorena Victor said...
Satan's attorney at work, this is sooo funny, he really got you. Satan killings are not reported, they are the ones killed on the street today, the ones overdose, the one who shot others because they are mad, the ones who got sick, you cannot come even close. And by the way, what do you care about the people who died, you feed them, do they owe you anything? We all are in debt with God, if you don't pay boy, you have it coming.
Tue Apr 30, 01:23:00 PM 2013 
 Mike Dillon said...
@Anna Victor,
My god I'm sick of people like you walking like OH YOU DONT BELIEVE LIKE ME? WELL YOUR GOING TO HELL!
let me tell you this. according to the bible god created hell, then everything in the universe, then created this all encomposing and unalterable plan. he therefore is ultimately responsible for sending people to hell.
Mon Jun 03, 11:08:00 AM 2013 
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 26 October 2006Punishment for mishandling the Quran
In a previous post, I listed some rules for handling the Quran. But what is the punishment for mishandling it? Well, according to Ynet news, Allah turned a Muslim girl into a dog for for just such a crime.
TAIBEH – Harsh punishment? A Muslim girl from Taibeh was punished by Allah and turned into a dog, according to rumors that have been circulating in the Arab-Israeli town this week, Arab-language newspaper Panorama reported.
According to the rumors, the harsh punishment was meted out after the girl, upset by her mother’s request to bring her the Quran as she was watching television, threw the holy Muslim book at the mother with disdain.
And this wouldn't be the first time Allah enforced such a punishment. The Quran says that Allah turned some Jews into apes for breaking the Sabbath.
And ye know of those of you who broke the Sabbath, how We said unto them: Be ye apes, despised and hated! And We made it an example to their own and to succeeding generations, and an admonition to the God-fearing. -- Quran 2:65-66
So he'd probably be more than willing to turn you into a dog (or worse) for mistreating the Quran!
Posted by Steve Wells at 10/26/2006 09:26:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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5 comments:
 Hoodlum said...
Man, I hate to see what is going to happen to me. I had a copy of the Quran for research purposes, and I've thrown it around generally and at Muslims during debates, used it as a coaster, and worse. By the time I traded it for $2 in used store credit at local bookstore,it was all banged up.
My Bosnian buddy was even worse, he spilled vodka on his copy.
Tue Oct 31, 09:02:00 PM 2006 
 Anonymous said...
Out of respect for the religious beliefs of others, any religious item should be handled with care. For example, if you were an adherent of a particular faith, and if you were holding a religiously sacred item in your hand, you wouldn't stomp on it, throw it around, desecrate it, etc. unless it was part of your faith to do so. Likewise, it is not part of any faith (including Islam, as far as I know) to disrespect the religious property of others, whether you agree with their beliefs or not.
Sat Nov 11, 03:41:00 AM 2006 
 Atanu said...
Anonymous claimed that Islam does not disrespect the religious property of others. Good lord in high heaven! Which rock has he been living under?
Destroying infidel religious property is one of the main activities of Islam. Has he heard of the thousands (not hundreds) of temples destroyed in India over a thousand years? Millions killed in India alone. Has he heard of the destruction of the Bamiyan Buddhas just a few years ago?
What sort of a moron claims that Islam does not destroy "religious property"?
Sun Nov 19, 10:05:00 PM 2006 
 Anonymous said...
really?this should be a world wide news that everybody should know,but as always DID U SEE THIS HAPPEN IN FRONT OF U? NO, so i think that this is just a lie, not only that at the same link (ynews.com a muslim cleric said “since Allah doesn’t need to turn a girl into a dog in order to prove his strength. If Allah wants to prove his power he can make the entire universe shake.” anyway IF mishandling the quran turns ppl 2 animals, then most of us should be dogs or apes or whatever by now LOL, BUT THAT DIDNT HAPPEN WHY? u know LIES
Wed Nov 29, 09:26:00 AM 2006 
 Anonymous said...
Of course, a religion threatening those who do not adhere to it properly. This is nothing new- all religions must attempt to scare people into believing, as they are inherently lies.
Tue Apr 24, 07:45:00 PM 2007 
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 25 October 2006Rules for handling the Quran
This is indeed a noble Qur'an ... Which none toucheth save the purified. -- Quran 56:77-79
From this passage, Muslims have developed a set of rules about how to handle the Quran. Here are some of them.
Make formal acts of cleaning yourself (ablutions) before touching the Quran.
Don't touch the Quran when you are unclean (like after touching a dog, going to the bathroom, having sex, or while menstruating).
Don't touch the Quran (in Arabic) unless you are already a Muslim. (It's okay for non-believers to listen to tapes or touch a translation.)
If you do have to touch it for some reason (and you're unclean or a non-Muslim), then wear gloves or use a cloth to keep your filthy fingers off the sacred text.
Never let the Quran touch the floor.
Don't take it into a bathroom.
Don't place anything else on top of it.
These rules are based on the idea that the Quran is the literal word of God, revealed to the angel Gabriel and delivered to the prophet Muhammad — none of which, of course, is true.
Posted by Steve Wells at 10/25/2006 10:16:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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11 comments:
 Anonymous said...
Good evening,
I love your site and have found it to be immensely useful as a reference. However, the photo of the Koran in the restroom in your home is truly immature and more than a bit disgusting. You have succeeded in demoting yourself from the appearance of being a thoughtful, educated person to little more than a wag in one short, quick stroke. Even more unfortunately, it reflects very poorly on a website that could be and has been of genuine value to a person who is trying to wrestle with and figure out the truth about the various sacred texts. What in the world do you have to gain by photographing the Koran in this way, other than perhaps experiencing a momentary thrill of getting revenge on the fable-makers who wrote this and the other 'sacred' texts?
Perhaps a better question is what do you have to loose? I am not thinking of you personally, but rather 'the cause' - that is, this wonderful site that you have devoted your heart and 'soul' blood to creating. Personally, I believe that the photo has very little if any benefit, and can serve to undo many good things that you have created.* Please think about it.
I close by passing along some advice that I remember hearing as a child. It was given by a talk show host named Pat Burns as a thought to those who called in to his radio talk show:
"Think first. Then - having thought - speak out. But (for heaven's sake), think first!"
This is good advice for all of us, but is especially important in your position, given the tremendous opportunity that you have created to change lives, and perhaps even alter for the better the destructive patterns that our species engages in. Please don't ruin the opportunity.
Thank you.
Sincerely,
Bob
Surrey, BC, Canada.
*Here is another thought to consider, of a more personal nature. I recommended your site to some highly educated and intelligent friends who have a Christian background. I spoke of the scholarship and research that has gone into your site. Imagine my surprise finding this photo and text just one easy mouse click away from the main page? It certainly doesn't make you look very professional, and quite frankly, it doesn't make my judgement look all that profound either.
Wed Oct 25, 08:10:00 PM 2006 
 Steve Wells said...
Bob,
Thanks for your thoughtful comments. And you're probably right; I should probably remove the picture.
But I think it's important to show disrespect for beliefs that are not only unworthy of respect, but are harmful as well. There is no book more damaging than the Quran (not even the Bible), yet our society pretends to admire belief in it. That attitude provides endless cover for the true believers.
And yet maybe the picture is not helpful. I don't want to make people sympathetic toward belief in the Quran, and maybe the picture tends to do that.
So, with some misgivings, I've removed it.
Wed Oct 25, 10:09:00 PM 2006 
 Anonymous said...
That was heartwarming, guys!
Bob, excellent comments and I tend to agree with you. As ridiculous as the rules for handling the document may seem, mocking them by deliberately breaking them only serves to undermine the purpose of pointing out their ridiculousness.
Steve, you run a stellar site which I am happy to frequent. Though I had not had the chance to see the photograph, I'm sure it was hilarious, however shameful and blasphemous.
I'm glad this came to a mutually accepted outcome. Hooray for reasonable arguments
Thu Oct 26, 10:53:00 PM 2006 
 Anonymous said...
hi its jacob
is thats why? its not ok for u to show a bad pic about the quran BUT ITS OK that the quran to MOCK OTHERS, like...
A hypocritical Jew looks like an ass carrying books. Those who deny the revelations of Allah are ugly. 62:5
so i think Steve Wells has a point (altuogh i didnt see it)
Wed Nov 29, 09:46:00 AM 2006 
 wislam said...
Is it really so hard to believe that the Quran requires you to be pure before you approach it?
Imagine if you possible can for a minute, that the Quran was indeed the literal word of God, is it not sensible to be clean before you either touch or read it? Is that not showing respect to God and his guidance?
I am a Muslim, and I would say foolish are indeed those that throw the Bible, Torah, or Quran on the floor... imagine if you possible can, that those were indeed the words of God. You are infact asking to be punished most severely, and indeed that is what you will receive upon your death.
How limited is your intelligence and how little is it that you perceive this world.

The Quran is absolutely correct in stating: -
And when it is said to them: "Make not mischief on the earth," they say: "We are only peacemakers."
Verily! They are the ones who make mischief, but they perceive not.
And when it is said to them (hypocrites): "Believe as the people (followers of Muhammad, Jesus, Moses, Abraham (peace be upon them all), have believed," they say: "Shall we believe as the fools have believed?" Verily, they are the fools, but they know not.
Allah (God) mocks at them and gives them increase in their wrong-doings to wander blindly.
- Al-Qur'an - 2:11-15)
Tue Dec 05, 05:30:00 AM 2006 
 Anonymous said...
This proves that the quran which is printed on 3rd generation chinese recycled paper is treated equally to God. The quran is an idol and muslims are pagans.
Thu Mar 08, 08:58:00 PM 2007 
 lb260 said...
This proves that the quran which is printed on 3rd generation chinese recycled paper is treated equally to God. The quran is an idol and muslims are pagans.
--------
SO in your opinion respecting someone or something is treating it/him/her equal to God? does this mean you dont respect your parents or teachers or any of your relatives or your spouse or your children etc etc....?
Sat Nov 10, 02:21:00 PM 2007 
 Dye said...
I suppose my plan for ritually burning the Qur'an while riciting my thoughts of the verses is really on the outs with muslims then
Thu Apr 10, 03:35:00 PM 2008 
 Hax said...
It is not the paper or the printing press or even the fact that it was printed in China that makes this book noble to Muslims. But something tells me that you are smart enough to already know this. So what is that is bothering you so much?
Don't make the same mistake like others, as non-other but yourself alone would be held accountable for your deeds. If a few applauded from your fellow men are worth opposing God then you have certainly picked your faith (against God).
I am not asking you to start respecting the Koran, but I do suggest you know and understand what you choose to disrespect. Majority of us are unaware of this, but you would be surprised to learn that at least 50 percent of the teachings of the Bible are identical to those in the Koran; so considered yourself warned if you still choose to disrespect the words of His book. I pray to Him for you need His assistance, before it is too late…
Thu Apr 19, 12:28:00 PM 2012 
 Steed Martin said...
I would be respectful of the Quran f it didn't send me and all Muslims to hell no matter how good we are in our lives, even if we save other lives, Alah in the Quran will bung us into hell and put his followers especially those who blow up innocent people in the name of that religion into heaven. So as far as I am concerned it s a nasty spiteful, misrable excuse ofa book..oh and I have read it. I studied religion and have shelves of religious texts from every main religion. I don't have my copy of the Quran on the same shelves nor in the same room as I think it is not religious in nature at all and I don't want to taint the good messages contained in the other texts with this hateful nonsense.
Tue Oct 09, 10:12:00 AM 2012 
 paarsurrey said...
@dwindlinginunbelief
You have mentioned seven rules for handling Quran. As you know Quran is the first and the foremost source of Islam/Quran/Muhammad whatever the denomination of the Muslims.
Please quote a verse/s from Quran in this connection.
Sat Feb 08, 01:38:00 PM 2014 
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 19 October 2006The Spirit of the Lord came upon him
According to the Bible, what happens when the Spirit of the Lord comes upon somebody?
Well, the short answer is this: a Spirit-possessed person usually kills things.
The phrase ("the Spirit of the Lord came upon him") occurs only 8 times (in 7 verses) in the Bible. Let's see what happens in each case.
Othniel
The Spirit of the Lord came upon Othniel and he went to war. (The same thing happened to Bush.)
And the Spirit of the LORD came upon him, and he judged Israel, and went out to war. Judges 3:10
Gideon
When the Spirit of the Lord came upon Gideon, he blew a trumpet. That sounds innocent enough (even if a little crazy). But Gideon (with God's Spirit) used the trumpet to summon soldiers to war. (Bush is looking for a magic trumpet.)
But the Spirit of the LORD came upon Gideon, and he blew a trumpet. Judges 6:34
Jephthah
When the spirit of the Lord came upon Jephthah, he killed his daughter as a burnt offering to pay God back for providing him with "a very great slaughter." (I hope Bush doesn't do this with Jenna or Barbara.)
Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah ... And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands, Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering. ... and the LORD delivered them into his hands. And he smote them ... And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances ... And she said unto him, My father, if thou hast opened thy mouth unto the LORD, do to me according to that which hath proceeded out of thy mouth. And ... her father ... did with her according to his vow which he had vowed. Judges 11:29-39
Samson
Samson had God's Spirit on him three times. Each time he kills something: first a lion, then 30 men, and finally 1000 men.
Behold, a young lion roared against him. And the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon him, and he rent him as he would have rent a kid. Judges 14:5-6
And the Spirit of the LORD came upon him ... and slew thirty men. Judges 14:19
And the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon him ... And he found a new jawbone of an ass ... and slew a thousand men therewith. Judges 15:14-15
Saul and David
The Spirit of God was on Saul until he refused to kill all the Amalekites as commaded by God in 1 Samuel 15:2-3. For refusing to commit genocide, God took away his Spirit from Saul, sicked "an evil spirit from the Lord" on him, and transfered his Spirit over to David, where it remained forever. (In a previous post I described some of the things a person can do when the Spirit of God comes on him.)
The Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him. 1 Samuel 16:13-14
Posted by Steve Wells at 10/19/2006 01:30:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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7 comments:
 Sovereign John said...
you've a wonderful blog. I'm linking
Wed Oct 25, 12:43:00 PM 2006 
 Anonymous said...
That's 8 times
Thu Nov 16, 11:41:00 AM 2006 
 Ittay said...
maybe the lesson of all these examples are that sometimes there are "spirits" that are best ignored, whilst at other times it is best to listen.
Mon Dec 04, 10:07:00 PM 2006 
 Tim Morris said...
As I wrestle with scriptures like these I have to ask, what does it say about God, and how does it relate to me?
The best I have come up with is that these scriptures show us the need to eradicate sin form our lives.
Genocide in scripture is troubling indeed.
Interesting post.
Thu Feb 25, 07:23:00 AM 2010 
 Jimmy P said...
Think about the importance of these passages! I'll post more later about the history of these kills...promise.
Wed Mar 31, 05:43:00 PM 2010 
 TerrysAlt said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Mon Oct 28, 10:02:00 PM 2013 
 TerrysAlt said...
all the Amalekites as commaded by God
I think you missed an n. :)
Mon Oct 28, 10:20:00 PM 2013 
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 16 October 2006And for the disbelievers, Allah has prepared a painful doom
For those of you who've never read the Quran, let me summarize it for you: And for the disbelievers, Allah has prepared a painful doom.
This idea is so important that Allah (or his prophet) repeats more than 200 times in the Quran. Here are just a few variants.
For disbelievers is a painful doom. 2:104
Those who disbelieve the revelations of Allah ... promise them a painful doom. 3:21
Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to those who disbelieve. 9:3
Those who vex the messenger of Allah, for them there is a painful doom. 9:61
Theirs will be a boiling drink and painful doom because they disbelieved. 10:4
And that's just a sample of the 60 verses in the Quran that describe the "painful doom" that unbelevers will endure. There are also 25 "awful doom" verses, 10 "shameful dooms", 4 "dreadful dooms", 4 "dooms of fire", and another 40 or so differently named dooms. Plus 65 verses that mention just a plain old "doom" -- and a couple hundred or so that describe Hell, the Fire, etc.
But my favorite doom verse is this one (If you don't believe in hell, guess where you'll be going):
Those who believe not in the Hereafter, for them We have prepared a painful doom. 17:10
Posted by Steve Wells at 10/16/2006 01:58:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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5 comments:
 Ritchie Annand said...
As long as I get some of the weapons from Doom, it shouldn't be so bad.
I think I can be a disbeliever so long as I keep my first-person shooter skills into old age.
...
Doom!
Thu Oct 19, 07:48:00 PM 2006 
 Anonymous said...
What if I deny the existence of doom? I bet the doom I can expect is really bad
Wed Oct 25, 01:49:00 PM 2006 
 Marie said...
Lol @ Ritchie's comment!
Islam, the religion of peace. Gotta love the irony ;)
Wed Oct 06, 11:30:00 AM 2010 
 Lethe said...
Doom?
Thu Oct 28, 02:04:00 AM 2010 
 Suburbanshinobi8000 said...
I think its talking about hell. Least thats what I got of it. which makes since in a way. Really what is the word Doom means... there are too many from a Hell to a video game name Doom. (noting like killing demons)
Fri Aug 09, 08:50:00 PM 2013 
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The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
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Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
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 16 October 2006The Heroes of Faith
Tor the time would fail me to tell of Gideon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthah; of David also, and Samuel. -- Hebrews 11:32
The author of Hebrews provides a list of heroes of faith, which includes Gideon, Samson, Jephthah, David, and Samuel. These are those that all good Christians should emulate.
To help them with that, I thought I'd provide a list of their heroic actions, so they can go and do likewise.
Gideon
Gave God some really weird tests. Judges 6:36-40
Selected for his army the men who lapped water like a dog. (This test was proposed by God.) Judges 7:4-7
Tortured prisoners of war and civilians with thorns and briers. Judges 8:7, 16-17
Ordered his young son to kill prisoners of war, and then did it himself when his son refused. Judges 8:20-22
Made an ephod that "all of Israel ... went whoring after." Judges 8:27
Had many wives and concubines.Judges 8:30
Jephthah
Sacrificed his daughter to God as a burnt offering. Judges 11:30-39
Samson
Killed things whenever "the Spirit of the Lord" came upon him. Judges 14:5-6, 19, 15:14-15
Caught 300 foxes, tied their tails together, and set them on fire. Judges 15:4-5
Saw a harlot and "went in unto her." Judges 16:1
Collapsed a building and killed 3000 people. Judges 16:27-30
David
Bought his first wife with 200 Philistine foreskins. 1 Samuel 18:25-27
Killed all Amalekite men and women. 1 Samuel 27:8-11
Had many wives and concubines. 2 Samuel 3:2-5, 5:13, 1 Chronicles 14:3
Commanded his young men to kill Saul's sons, cut off their hands and feet, and hang their bodies up over a pool in Hebron. 2 Samuel 4:6-12
Danced naked, or nearly naked, in front of God and everyone. 2 Samuel 6:14, 20-23
Committed adultery with Bathsheba and then had her husband killed in battle. (To punish David for this, God killed the Bathsheba's baby boy.) 2 Samuel 11:2-27, 12:13-18
Tortured the Ammonites with fire, saws, and axes. 2 Samuel 12:31, 1 Chronicles 20:3
Samuel
Told Saul that God commanded him to kill all of the Amalekites: men, women, infants, sucklings, ox, sheep, camels, and asses. 1 Samuel 15:2-3
Told Saul that he was rejected by God as King of Israel for failing to commit genocide. 1 Samuel 15:22-23
To please God, Samuel hacks Agag in pieces "before the Lord." 1 Samuel 15:32-33
Posted by Steve Wells at 10/16/2006 09:10:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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Dwindling In Unbelief



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 14 October 2006Richard Dawkins' Bible Study
Richard Dawkins's new book The God Delusion is simply fantastic. It gets my vote for the best book of the year.
Since the book has received many reviews (See, for example, A Devil's Catechism by PZ Myers), I'll not discuss it here.
But something caught my eye on page 341-3. Dawkins presents a long list of phrases from the Bible that have become a part of our literary culture, and that therefore should be familiar to us all. So I thought, what the heck, I'd list the phrases and provide links to the verses in the Bible in which they occur.
1 Be fruitful and multiply Genesis 1:28, 9:1, 9:7
2 East of Eden Genesis 4:16
3 Adam's rib Genesis 2:22
4 Am I my brother's keeper Genesis 4:9
5 The mark of Cain Genesis 4:16
6 As old as Methuselah Genesis 5:27
7 A mess of potage Genesis 25:34
8 Sold his birthright Genesis 25:34
9 Jacob's ladder Genesis 28:12
10 Coat of many colors Genesis 37:3
11 Amid the alien corn (The phrase occurs in John Keats's "Ode to a Nightingale", but is not found in the KJV. Thanks Matthew for the correction.) 
12 Eyeless in Gaza Judges 16:21
13 The fat of the land Genesis 45:18
14 The fatted calf Luke 15:23, 27, 30
15 Stranger in a strange land Exodus 2:22
16 Burning bush Exodus 3:2
17 A land flowing with milk and honey Exodus 3:8, 17, 13:5, 33:3; Jeremiah 11:5, 32:22; Ezekiel 20:6
18 Let my people go Exodus 5:1, 7:16, 8:1, 20, 21, 9:1, 13, 10:3, 4
19 Flesh pots Exodus 16:3
20 An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth Exodus 21:24, Leviticus 24:20, Deuteronomy 19:21, Matthew 5:38
21 Be sure your sin will find you out Numbers 32:23
22 The apple of his eye Deuteronomy 32:10, Zechariah 2:8
23 The stars in their courses Judges 5:20
24 Butter in a lordly dish Judges 5:25
25 The host of Midian Judges 7:8, 13, 15
26 Shibboleth Judges 12:6
27 Out of the strong came forth sweetness Judges 14:14
28 He smote them hip and thigh Judges 15:8
29 Philistine 1 Samuel 17:8-57, 18:6, 19:5, 21:9, 22:10, 2 Samuel 21:17 
30 A man after his own heart 1 Samuel 13:14
31 Like David and Jonathan 1 Samuel 18:1
32 Passing the love of women 2 Samuel 1:26
33 How are the mighty fallen 2 Samuel 1:19, 25, 27
34 Ewe lamb Leviticus 14:10, Numbers 6:14, 2 Samuel 12:3
35 Man of Belial 1 Samuel 24:25, 2 Samuel 16:7, 20:1
36 Jezebel 1 Kings 16:31, 18:4,13, 19:1-2, 25:1-25, 2 Kings 9:7-37, Revelation 2:20
37 Queen of Sheba 1 Kings 10:4, 10, 13, 2 Chronicles 9:1,3,9,12
38 Wisdom of Solomon 1 Kings 4:34, 2 Chronicles 9:3, Matthew 12:42, Luke 11:31
39 The half was not told me 1 Kings 10:7
40 Girded up his loins 1 Kings 18:46
41 Drew a bow at a venture 1 Kings 22:34, 2 Chronicles 18:33
42 Job's comforters Job 16:2
43 The patience of Job James 5:11
44 I am escaped with the skin of my teeth Job 19:20
45 The price of wisdom is above rubies Job 28:18
46 Leviathan Job 41:1, Psalm 74:14, 104:26, Isaiah 27:1
47 Go to the ant thou sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise Proverbs 6:6
48 Spare the rod and spoil the child Proverbs 13:24
49 A word in season Isaiah 50:4
50 Vanity of vanities Ecclesiastes 1:2, 12:8
51 To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose Ecclesiastes 3:1
52 The race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong Ecclesiastes 9:11
53 Of making many books there is no end Ecclesiastes 12:12
54 I am the Rose of Sharon Song of Songs 2:1
55 A garden inclosed Song of Songs 4:12
56 The little foxes Song of Songs 2:15
57 Many waters cannot quench love Song of Songs 8:7
58 Beat their swords into plowshares Isaiah 2:4, Micah 4:3
59 Grind the faces on the poor Isaiah 3:15
60 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid Isaiah 11:6
61 Let us eat and drink; for tomorrow we die Isaiah 22:13, 1 Corinthians 15:32
62 Set thine house in order 2 Kings 20:1, Isaiah 38:1
63 A voice crying in the wilderness Matthew 3:3, Mark 1:3, Luke 3:4, John 1:23
64 No peace for the wicked Isaiah 48:22, Isaiah 57:21
65 See eye to eye Isaiah 52:8
66 Cut off out of the land of the living Isaiah 53:8
67 Balm in Gilead Jeremiah 8:2
68 Can the leopard change his spots? Jeremiah 13:12
69 The parting of the ways Ezekiel 21:21
70 A Daniel in the lions' den Daniel 6:16
71 They have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind Hosea 8:7
72 Sodom and Gomorrah Genesis 13:10, 14:10-11, 18:20, 19:28, Isaiah 13:19, Jeremiah 49:18, Amos 4:11, Matthew 10:15, Mark 6:11, 2 Peter 2:6, Jude 7
73 Man shall not live by bread alone Matthew 4:4, Luke 4:4
74 Get thee behind me Satan Matthew 16:23, Mark 8:33, Luke 4:8
75 The salt of the earth Matthew 5:13
76 Hide your light under a bushel Matthew 5:15, Mark 4:21, Luke 11:33
77 Turn the other cheek Matthew 5:39
78 Go the extra mile Matthew 5:41
79 Moth and rust doth corrupt Matthew 6:19
80 Cast your pearls before swine Matthew 7:6
81 Wolf in sheep's clothing Matthew 7:15
82 Weeping and gnashing of teeth Matthew 8:12, 22:13, 24:51, 25:30, Luke 13:28
83 Gadarene swine Mark 5:1-13, Luke 8:26-33
84 New wine in old bottles Mark 9:17, Luke 5:37
85 Shake off the dust of your feet Matthew 10:14, Mark 6:11, Luke 9:5
86 He that is not with me is against me Matthew 12:30, Luke 11:23
87 Fell upon stony ground Mark 4:5, 16
88 A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country Matthew 13:57, Mark 6:4
89 The crumbs from the table Matthew 15:27, Mark 7:28, Luke 16:21
90 Signs of the times Matthew 16:3
91 Den of thieves Matthew 21:13, Mark 11:17, Luke 19:46
92 Pharisee Matthew 23:6, Luke 7:39, 11:37-38, 18:10-11, Acts 5:34, 23:6, 26:5, Philippians 3:5
93 Whited sepulchre Matthew 23:37
94 Wars and rumours of wars Mathew 24:6, Mark 13:7
95 Good and faithful servant Matthew 25:21,23
96 Separate the sheep from the goats Matthew 25:32
97 I wash my hands of it Matthew 27:24
98 the sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath Mark 2:27
99 Suffer the little children Matthew 19:14, Mark 10:14, Luke 18:16
100 The widow's mite Mark 12:42, Luke 21:2
101 Physician heal thyself Luke 4:23
102 Good Samaritan Luke 10:30-37
103 Passed by on the other side Luke 10:31-32
104 Grapes of wrath Revelation 14:18-19
105 Lost sheep Psalm 119:176, Jeremiah 50:6, Matthew 10:6, 15:24
106 Prodigal son Luke 15:11-32
107 A great gulf fixed Luke 16:26
108 Whose shoe latchet I am not worthy to unloose Mark 1:7, Luke 3:16, John 1:27
109 Cast the first stone John 8:7
110 Jesus wept John 11:35
111 Greater love hath no man than this John 15:13
112 Doubting Thomas John 20:25
113 Road to Damascus Acts 9:3-8
114 Through a glass darkly 1 Corinthians 13:12
115 Death where is thy sting? 1 Corinthians 15:55
116 A thorn in the flesh 2 Corinthians 12:7
117 Fallen from grace Galatians 5:4
118 Filthy lucre 1 Timothy 3:3,8, Titus 1:7, 1 Peter 5:2
119 The root of all evil 1 Timothy 6:10
120 Fight the good fight 1 Timothy 6:12
121 All flesh is as grass Isaiah 40:6, 1 Peter 1:24
122 The weaker vessel 1 Peter 3:7
123 I am the Alpha and the Omega Revelation 1:8,11, 21:6, 22:13
124 Armageddon Revelation 16:16
125 De profundis (Out of the depths) Psalm 130:1
126 Quo vadis (Whither goest thou) John 16:5
127 Rain on the just and the unjust Matthew 5:45

Posted by Steve Wells at 10/14/2006 08:10:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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7 comments:
 jake3988 said...
So, its really good? Richard Dawkins is awesome. So, I should figure this would be good.
I haven't really liked his previous books so much. But I liked him and his documentaries.
So, I'll check it out!
Sat Oct 21, 11:44:00 AM 2006 
 Anonymous said...
Nice list... Minor detail: #11, "amid the alien corn" is not a phrase from the bible, but is a description of Ruth (from the biblical book of the same name) from Keat's Ode to a Nightingale:
"Through the sad heart of Ruth, when sick from home,
She stood in tears amid the alien corn."
Fri Nov 17, 04:42:00 PM 2006 
 lynn's daughter said...
I listened to Dawkins' Book, all 14 unabridged Cd's of it, on the way to a family gathering in, of all places, Alabama. It was fabulous, read by the author himself and his wife. We enjoyed it immensely.
Wed Feb 14, 12:24:00 PM 2007 
 snowform said...
Thank you so much for your list. At present I am translating Dawkins' book for Russian publisher, and your worked had wonderfully supported the tired translator at the end of the jouney :) Many thanks!
Sat Dec 08, 01:48:00 AM 2007 
 Charles said...
VERSION 1


Thanks very much for the list. I literally went to our public library a couple of days ago, copied the verses from Dawkins’ book, typed them into a file, and started searching for the biblical sources. Somehow I got sidetracked about half-way through the list, and eventually wound up on dwindlinginunbelief where I found this. You saved me a lot of time. In return, I found a list in Alister McGrath’s excellent book, “In The Beginning”, which I am contributing.
Some are duplicates of Dawkins’ list, like “A man after his own heart". There is probably (certainly?) at typo somewhere.
Alister McGrath, “In The Beginning”, 2001, Random House, ISBN 0-385-49890-X
Pages 263-264
“to lick the dust” (Psalm 72:9, Isaiah 49:23; Micah 7:17)
“to fall flat on his face” (Numbers 22:31)
“a man after his own heart” (1 Samuel 13:14)
“to pour out one’s heart” (Psalm 62:8, Lamentations 2:19)
“the land of the living” (Job 28:13; Psalm 27:13; Psalm 52:5; Isaiah 38:11; Jeremiah 11:19; Ezekiel 32:23-27)
“under the sun” (Ecclesiastes 1:4 and at least twenty other occurrences in this biblical book)
“sour grapes” (Ezekiel 18:2)
“from time to time” (Ezekiel 4:10)
“pride goes before a fall” (Proverbs 16:18)
“the skin of my teeth (Job 19:20)
“to stand in awe” (Psalm 4:4; Psalm 33:8)
“to put words in his mouth” (Exodus 4:15; Deuteronomy 18:18 2 Samuel 14:3; 2 Samuel 14:19; Jeremiah 1:9)
“to go from strength to strength” (Psalm 84:7)
“like a lamb to the slaughter” (Isaiah 53:7)
“rise and shine” (a minor variant on “arise, ashine” Isaiah 60:1)
“to see the writing on the wall” (from Daniel 5:5)
“a fly in the ointment” (from Ecclesiastes 10:1)
“a drop in the bucket” (a slight variant on Isaiah 40:15)
“the salt of the earth” (Matthew 5:13)
“a thorn in the flesh” (2 Corinthians 12:7)
“to give up the ghost” (Mark 15:37; John 19:30)
“the powers that be” (Romans 13:1)
“and it came to pass” (Mark 1:9 and more than four hundred other passages)
“the scales fell from his eyes” (based on Acts 9:18)
Wed Jul 28, 07:14:00 PM 2010 
 Matthew Blanchette said...
I know I'm about seven years too late to get a response, but I just wanted to say that Dawkins was wrong on one count: "Amid the alien corn" is not in the Judges passage listed. It's not even from the Bible; it's a quote from John Keats's "Ode to a Nightingale".
The passage IS, however, a reference to something from the Bible; specifically, from the Book of Ruth, when Ruth is noticed for the first time by Boaz.
Really wish somebody had corrected Dr. Dawkins on that. :-(
Tue Mar 05, 08:18:00 PM 2013 
 Steve Wells said...
Thanks for the correction, Matthew.
You're right, the phrase "amid the alien corn" does not exist in the King James Version of the Bible. It is, as you say, from John Keats's "Ode to a Nightingale".
However the error was partly mine. I cited Judges 15:5 which has the phrase "into the standing corn of the Philistines", but Ruth 2:2 is probably what Keats was referencing.
I'll make the correction in the post. Thanks.
Tue Mar 05, 08:44:00 PM 2013 
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Dwindling In Unbelief



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 10 October 2006David Snoke's "A Biblical Case for an Old Earth"
David Snoke is a physics professor at the University of Pittsburgh and an elder in the Presbyterian Church in America. His latest book is A Biblical Case for an Old Earth.
Facing the facts
First of all, I must say that I like the way Dr. Snoke is thinking, when he says:
We must face the facts: if the Bible is wrong, utterly wrong, about the history of our origins, then we should dump it. (p.120)
Of course the Bible is wrong, utterly wrong, about the history of our origins (and just about everything else). But Dr. Snoke is reluctant to dump it. His challenge, then, is to try to find a way, any way, to interpret the Bible so that it does not conflict with science.
In many people's eyes, I have probably lost before I begin, because no matter what I argue from the Bible, they will say, "But you have come up with this just because you want the Bible to agree with science." I freely confess to this charge. (p.9)
Saying as little as possible
Snoke's little book is remarkable for how little it says about the history of life or the age of the earth. You'd think that a book about an old earth would say how old it is. But if the author has an opinion on the subject, he doesn't say so in his book. The closest he comes is this:
In this chapter [Chapter 2: The Scientific Case] I have argued that the world looks as though animals and plants have been living and dying for millions of years. (p.43)
From which, I guess, he (sort of) thinks that life on earth is at least several million years old. It seems that Dr. Snoke, like Ann Coulter, is not particularly interested in the details.
Here are just a few questions that he doesn't address:
How long has life existed on earth?
How old is the earth?
How old is the universe?
Is the fossil record reliable and what does it say?
How long have humans existed?
Were all of the species created in the beginning, or did God intervene periodically by creating a bunch of new species while causing others to go extinct?
Old Earth Creationism
Throughout the book, Dr. Snoke makes it clear that although he accepts an old earth, he rejects evolution.
Many people seem to assume that if the earth is as old as science indicates, and animals have lived and died during that time, then evolution must have occurred. Not so! (p.44)
An old-earth view is not synonymous with evolution. (p.193)
...evolution, which I reject... (p.164)
Lord of the Fleas
Dr. Snoke spends two chapters on the important scientific question of whether animals suffered and died before Adam and Eve sinned. Evangelical Christians are divided on this issue. I discussed his views in a previous post (For thy pleasure they were created), so I’ll skip over them here, except to say that he believes that God purposefully designed animals to prey on one another from the very beginning.
God … is not just the way we would like him to be. We may hate the wrath of God, but we cannot say it is illogical to believe in it. What is illogical is to believe in a God who would never harm a flea when we see lots of harmed fleas around us. (p.96)
Utterly wrong non-negotiables
Dr. Snoke admits that he "wants the Bible to agree with science." But he says there are three biblical "nonnegotiables" which science cannot contradict.
"Adam was one, real, historical man."
(Adam was specially created by God just like it says in Genesis. And all humans are descended from him.)
"Noah was one, real, historical man."
(Snoke thinks the flood was local, making biogeography a bit less embarrassing. But he insists "that the flood killed every other person on earth except those on the ark, so that every person today is descended from one of Noah's sons.")
"Life in al its diversity was created by sovereign, miraculous acts of God."
(Evolution did not occur.)
Dumping the Bible
"If the Bible is wrong, utterly wrong, about the history of our origins, then we should dump it.” His non-negotiables are utterly wrong about the history of our origins. I guess it’s time to dump the Bible.
Posted by Steve Wells at 10/10/2006 08:11:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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15 comments:
 Anonymous said...
How very sad that there are so many people like this Snoke character, who no matter what, strive to make an utterly useless and inane piece of crap make sense. It just goes to show that the old saying about educated idiots isn't far off the mark, especially where religion is concerned. Since everyone is so convinced that these "holy books" were/are the divine, inspired word of god, I find it amazing that there's NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING divine in them, i.e. show me any idea, any information, any anything, that could have only come from "god". It's impossible because it all has the unmistakable fingerprints of ancient man, complete with all his fears, supersititions, and ignorance. Only by playing little mind games can one pretend there's any sense to any of it and this Snoke character does exactly that. As they say, figures don't lie but liars figure........
Wed Oct 11, 04:07:00 AM 2006 
 Anonymous said...
"he believes that God purposefully designed animals to prey on one another from the very beginning."
Bugger! Thats why my pet anteater starved to death despite all those coconuts I gave him. But I dont understand Gen1:30 says he should have ate it though - what do you mean genesis 1 and 2 contradict each other?
Always wondered how the loonies ignore the fact that during the flood, all fish life on the planet was not killed - put a goldfish in the sea or a btterfly fish in your garden pond and watch what happens. And for those who claim it was only a local flood, how did the ark end up in the mountains of ararat? Well we all know the answer
Billy Sands
Wed Oct 11, 02:45:00 PM 2006 
 jake3988 said...
You ever read answersingenesis answer to this? Its the first and last question I ever looked at on that site.
It says, and I quote as well as I can remember: "Despite the fact that all the evidence points to an old Earth, to accept it we would destroy the credibility of the bible and therefore must stick to the bible."
As I said, once I read that I immediately left the site, haven't been back since.
Wed Oct 11, 07:49:00 PM 2006 
 sattvicwarrior said...
GREAT BLOG..
your pretty much RIGHT on . thanks for sharing:)
Thu Oct 12, 03:30:00 AM 2006 
 Anonymous said...
That's a new one on me: that the entire human population was confined to a small area destroyed by a local flood. Still utterly ahistoric, but at least it's a clever attempt at harmonization.
Thu Oct 12, 09:26:00 PM 2006 
 Bacon Eating Atheist Jew said...
There was a time when the world's population was localized in Africa around 60,000 years ago, however no sign of a great flood.
I think that believers who genuinely seek answers about evolution and the ancient earth wind up at a crossroad.
Some choose reality, and some just put their head in the sand
Sun Oct 15, 01:37:00 AM 2006 
 ProofOfDesigner said...
I've read most of Snoke's Book this week as well as many books from other scientists such as Hugh Ross (www.Reasons.org). From my perspective, Snoke's is intentionally not writing arguments to convince a staunch athiest to believe the Bible, but to deal with a serious mix-up within the religious communities on how to read the Bible in light of scientific research. Instead, Snoke's book is written to readers who have read Hugh Ross (such as The Genesis Question) and Michael Behe's work on our world reflecting the actions of an intelligent designer. Snoke references both of these authors directly in his book.
Instead, Snoke's concern is that many loud religious people have preached a "religious" and somewhat "dysfunctional" view of the sequences of events recorded in the Bible in ways that does not represent the actual Bible texts being referenced.
Snoke's comparison of the Catholic Church in the middle ages with the issue of the movement of the earth is right on point for Snoke. The church wrongly promoted the science of the movement of the earth by holding to isolated verses in Psalms and Isaiah that made abtuse references to the stability of the earth's foundations. The "tension" that Snoke is dealing with is how many young earth religious people are falling into the same trap as the middle ages in the area of Bible interpretation.
If someone is interested in seeing the "wonders" of the creation accounts as compared to modern science I recommend Hugh Ross (a scientist of cosmology) and Michael Behe (a scientist for intelligent design) for more details. Snoke's book is directed at the issue of Bible interpretation, not a strong defence of the actual issues of science.
Tue Jan 08, 07:44:00 AM 2008 
 Alpana Mandal said...
I just read a book that had a whole new perspective to the Adam and Eve story as explained by a Hindu saint - http://daysofalps.blogspot.com/2009/09/adam-and-eve-yogis-perspective.html - It's also too unbelievable to be true, but its a new story!
Thu Sep 24, 12:28:00 AM 2009 
 JMS said...
Snoke is writing to believers. Thus he doesn't answer many of the questions you seem to think he should. But surely the author has no obligation to write for someone outside his target audience, does he?
This would be like me decrying Dawkins' "The God Delusion" for not addressing questions such as the nature of Salvation, Atonement Theory or Progressive Sanctification.
Christians have always held varying views on the intersection of Scripture and Science. Here's a brief video summary from the course I teach on this very topic:
http://tinyurl.com/yf5udvv
Blessings,
JM
Sat Jan 23, 12:08:00 PM 2010 
 Forrest Charnock said...
Snokes is speaking to gutless and uniformed Christians , not to believers.
Why is it , seeing most of you claim to be more intelligent than the majority do you have to resort to outlandish lies to make your case?
Answers in Genesis , nor any creationist organization has ever said that the evidence points to an old earth but we have to believe the Bible. Jake3988 is lying through his teeth. Here is a list of over 100 scientific evidences for a young earth.
http://creation.com/age-of-the-earth
The man who created the Terra supercomputer program which N.A.S.A. {who pays him an enormous sum to work for them as they consider him the world's foremost expert on the subject which he is} and everyone else on earth who studies plate tectonics, weather forecasting and earthquake prediction uses is a creationists.
He wrote the program to describe Noah's Flood. Of course secular scientists use a different starting assumption when they use it but the program is the same, the science is the same and it has always been a creationist science just as natural selection is.
If you studied the creationist argument you would know these things. Origins science has more to do with the world view of the interpreters than science or facts. We all have the same facts and we all use the same science.
You should read the R.A.T.E. report. it is just not true that all "real" scientists believe in great ages and those that don't are idiot bible thumpers. You never hear about people like Dr. Baumgardner who invented Terra and N.A.S.A. depends on to to handle its earthquake predictions or Dr, Damadian who invented the M.R.I. or Dr, Austin who presented his paper showing the Red Wall Limestone was formed catastrophically to 1000 of the world's best geologists and recieved a standing applause. You have been brainwashed into believing there is no scientific argument against millions of years. If you knew the history of science you would know one of the best was inadvertently created by the evolutionists Dr. Libbey who discovered c-14. They forgot to tell you that if the earth was more than 30k years old c-14 would have reached equilibrium and it has not and that dinosaur bones , diamonds and coal have way to much c-14 to possibly be 100k years old, much less millions or as with diamonds billions or that all coal dates the same regardless of depth.
You have been treated like mushrooms, it should made you angry.
You shall know the truth and the truth will make you free.
Snokes is theisic evolutionist/progressive creationist, he hates Bible believing scientists and presents himself as a Hebrew/Biblical scholar when he is anything but.
Jake has obviously never read anything at any creationists site. Even if it was true that he read one thing there {which it cannot be from his lie} it would still show the gullibility and scientific ignorance of the materialist. If you don't know the arguments against your theory you have abandoned the scientific process completely and are participating in group think, you are believing what you were told to without question. Creationists study the opposing view and I have never personally met a single evolutionists who had a clue about the origins of their own belief system much less a clue about the opposing view. Even Charles Darwin was more logical that you guys, he said if you can't make the argument either way you know neither view and in that case he was correct.
I can ague for or against evolution but all I see here are people who site a weak minded compromiser like Snokes who knows little more about the scientific arguments for creation and against evolution than you do and then attacking the intelligence of people whose arguments you never bothered to read. How could you miss the fact he hates creationists? Perhaps you need to reassess your reading comprehension skills, they aren't making it!
http://creation.com/a-pathetic-case-for-an-old-earth-snoke-refutation
Sun May 16, 12:22:00 AM 2010 
 HaggisForBrains said...
Difficult to know where to start! How about, what colour (or race) was Noah? Moving on from that, since we are all descended from him, how did we achieve such racial diversity in such a short time, particularly if you don't allow natural selection?
Sun Aug 22, 10:33:00 AM 2010 
 Frank Cox said...
Haggisforbrains:
It would not be so difficult to know where to start should you bother to learn the arguments against your view, how else can you decide truth? Obviously you have accepted what you were told to, as the majority does.
You remarks about the time needed for racial diversity and not allowing for natural selection is evidence of a common misunderstanding of the science, the history,and the Bible not to mention what creationist teach.
There are twins, one white, one black so the time necessary for complete racial diversity is as short as 1 generation. Just type "Black and White Twins" in Google.
There is only one race, the human race .God created us with incredible diversity. The genetic code could not have created itself and there is no process known to science that could create genetic information, it is a product of intelligence.
As far as natural selection creationist have been using it to explain the Bible for thousands of years, 16th century Catholic theologians were hammered with the same poorly thought out arguments secularists and liberal theologians use today. The American Bison was thrown in their face as "proof" the ark was not big enough to hold the animals and they answered it is just a cow that has adapted to its food and environment over time, sound familiar? Noah needed only 2 bovines, 2 dogs, 2 cats. etc,perhaps as few as 5000 animals no more than 16000.
Natural Selection was first presented as a scientific theory by the creationist Edwin Blyth in 1835-37 and 1/2 of the first edition of the "Preservation of Favoured Racist in the Struggle to Deny the Existent of God" a.k.a. "The Origin of the Species" was spent trying to refute Blyth's work. Darwin swore he never read the papers until afterwards but who did he have to answer to? It is also noteworthy that he never really discussed origins in the Origin.
The famous Marxist and anti-creationist Steven J. Gould proved he lied by finding a copy of Blyth’s scientific papers with Darwin's notes all over many years before he ever started writing his first edition. It seems to me people forget Darwin was not a scientist but an amateur naturalist. His only University degree was in theology , he was not even the naturalist of record on the Beagle.
Natural selection has everything to do with creation and nothing to do with evolution. Evolution would require novel genetic information to arise by itself from matter continuously for no reason at all in perfect order and natural selection sorts existing genetic information and always results in a permanent loss of genetic info.
Please educate yourself, to even suggest that creationist deny natural selection is akin to the denial of the holocaust, like claiming the world is flat or that Obama is a brilliant economist.
BTW- Noah was probably olive skinned or middle brown but anything is possible seeing as he had 3 sons and 3 daughter-in-laws. Evolutionist forget that secularist have been stunned by their own research in recent years which shows natural selection happens at rates as high as ten million times what was historically believed. The creationist have been saying that for thousands of years, that there was ample time for a single pair of wolves or middle brown horses or Noahs descendants to populate the earth with its current diversity. Secular science supports this rapid change and using a low figure of .5% population growth over 4500 years starting with Noah’s family gives you right at 6.5 billion people today.
Thu Nov 25, 07:00:00 PM 2010 
 Kristin said...
You all are quibbling about details that Snoke never meant to address with this book. The bottom line Snoke is trying to make is that the Bible's account of the origins of the universe and of mankind can indeed be consistent with todays views that the earth is millions and millions of years old. To me, it makes perfect sense. Why would a God of the eternal past and future feel the need to cram creation into a literal seven day week?
Thu Mar 03, 06:26:00 AM 2011 
 Forrest Charnock said...
To Jake 3988:
You made the statement that Answers in Genesis stated that the evidence all pointed to an old earth but they deny it because the Bible says otherwise ,would you mind providing a link? All I have ever heard them say is the evidence has to be interpreted and they believe the case that the universe cannot be so ancient is strong. Perhaps you should be more like Darwin, he felt it necessary to know both sides of an argument.
On the Other hand Prof. Todd said this:
it should be made clear in the classroom that science, including evolution, has not disproved God’s existence because it cannot be allowed to consider it (Todd 1999, p. 423, emphasis added).
Professor Todd concluded that even if “all the data point to an intelligent designer, such an hypothesis is excluded from science because it is not naturalistic” (Todd, 1999, p. 423).
That says it all.
Sat Mar 05, 06:41:00 PM 2011 
 Forrest Charnock said...
To Kristin:
Anyone who has ever read Snokes book and the Bible knows that he made no case at all. He and Hugh Ross repeat 200 year old stories about pre-Adamites who looked human, made super glue, built complex dwellings requiring high level math, buried there dead and cared for their wounded and claims they were animals , soulless humans. That is not what the Bible says and neither does it allow for millions of years or a local flood. They really do not believe the Bible , their authority is "science"
Their problem, and yours as well it seems, is they really don't care what God said He did . Whether he created in a millisecond or a trillion years is not the question, the question is authority, is the Bible the word of God or not. He said He spoke the world into existence in 6 24 hour days about 6000 years ago and though you will be hard pressed to find many Hebrew Professors at any major university in the world that still believe that God created all in 6 days and the flood was global but you will never find one who will agree with Ross or Snokes or that will ever say that is not precisely what Moses meant to convey. If it is then you might want to check out the scientist who are not compromisers and see what their argument is . Think about this, if God needed billions of years to create what about the New Heavens and the New Earth? Did Jesus say-Lazarus, in 4.6 billion years come forth from the grave? Or did He say these water pots will be wine billions of years from now or arise and walk but not quite yet?
There are scientists, some of the world's bests scientists that say their is no conflict between operational science and the Bible . Ross and Snokes are saying their is no conflict between the atheistic interpretations of historical data and the Bible but their case have been weighed in the balance and found wanting.
If there was death before sin then Jesus Christ died for nothing, that is irrefutable. If there was no original sin, no first Adam, how then can there be a last?
Also imagine a flood in the Mesopotamian Valley. Why did God have Moses spend 120 years building an ark when he could have simply walked out of the valley in a week? If you have a sense of humour imagine a flood held in on 3 sides by mountains and terminating on the beach in Saudi Arabia?
Jesus compared His second coming to the flood, If Jesus Christ said it was a global flood how can a person claim to be a Christian if they say he was mistaken?
Sat Mar 05, 07:13:00 PM 2011 
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Dwindling In Unbelief



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 05 October 2006The Book of Elvis
Well, this is big news. Elvis Presley had a copy of the Book of Mormon!
It had something to do with Donny and Marie, but for the details you'll just have to wait for the movie (The Tears of a King). Yep, they're going to make a whole damned movie on it, based on the King's copy of the worst book ever written.
Elvis' copy is now owned by the LDS church, and they say he had notes all over it. Like everywhere (there are 89 occurrences) that the word "king" is used, it is underlined.
I don't care what Penn&Teller say, you've got to be on drugs to do something like that.
Posted by Steve Wells at 10/05/2006 10:49:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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 Eddy1701 said...
"I don't care what Penn&Teller say, you've got to be on drugs to do something like that."
Haha
Fri Oct 06, 07:20:00 AM 2006 
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 04 October 2006A Gay Antichrist?
Remember when Jerry Falwell said that the Antichrist is a Jewish male that is alive today? Well, now we find out that the Antichrist is also gay! And it seems that the both ideas (that AC is Jewish and gay) are taken from the very same verse.
Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. Daniel 11:37
That's a lot of mileage out of one verse!
But there shouldn't be any doubt about the identity of the antichrist. The word "antichrist" occurs only four times in the Bible, but those four verses tell us all we need to know.
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 1 John 2:18
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 1 John 2:22
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 1 John 4:3
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 2 John 1:7
Whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ is an antichrist. That would include all Jews, gay or straight, along with about 4 billion others. It certainly includes me.
I am a proud member of the antichrist community.
Posted by Steve Wells at 10/04/2006 10:48:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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 jake3988 said...
Yeah, you go to the catholic encyclopedia (as evidenced by your previous posts)... look up antichrist.
It says pretty much the exact same thing. But now I got verses!

Anyway, I've tried to point this out to people (I knew this from when I was researching the DaVinci Code and stumbled into it), but they never believe me.
Wed Oct 04, 03:09:00 PM 2006 
 Andrew said...
Hey Steve,
you've got an interesting blog here, and it looks like you've put a lot of work into the annotated Bible, Quran, etc. Some interesting points you bring up.
You can rationalise and slam the Bible as much as you want, but in the end, you have to be sure of what is going to happen to you when you die. Put your trust in Jesus Christ. He is the only way mate. Don't try and pit your wits against God's.
Check out Psalm 2
Cheers mate,
Wed Oct 04, 05:33:00 PM 2006 
 Anonymous said...
I am sure of what will happen to me when I die. My body will be disposed of and that's it.
Wed Oct 04, 09:03:00 PM 2006 
 Anonymous said...
Hey Andrew,
In a battle of wits with Christians and their false god, there can be only one winner; you guys are unarmed in that respect! Try reading what is on these pages, and let reality take hold of you -Wacko!
Thu Oct 05, 09:14:00 AM 2006 
 jake3988 said...
The truth can hurt. I'm not going to take the wager to trust in an invisible entity who would send 4.5 billion people to an unquenchable fire just because you don't bow down and worship them.

When we die, we're dead. Our body's will decompose and become a part of the ground. The Earth will be consumed by the sun and eventually be shot into the universe.
The circle of life at its finest. I truly will be in the 'heavens'. Get it?
Thu Oct 05, 12:40:00 PM 2006 
 Anonymous said...
"Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all."
I'm thinking that it's definitely Stewie from Family Guy.
Sun Oct 08, 07:41:00 PM 2006 
 Benjamin Schellack said...
You also forgot "nor regard any god." That must mean he'll be a non-Jew, gay, /athiest/. You're exegesis is brilliant. Have you considered publishing?
Mon Dec 04, 12:26:00 PM 2006 
 jlaspina said...
I agree with the writer of 'A Gay Antichrist' for many reasons, mostly that although his logic led him to believe that he is part of the antichrist community he does not understand what this really means.
When Jesus preached 2000 years ago, He said that the 'end times had arrived' therefore the end times are already 2000 years old and therefore much time is not left. If the writer does not consider himself as an antichrist, he must understand that he might have the 'antichristian spirit' but the real antichrist or the man of lawlessness - as described in scripture, will be both a chap like the writer and also, this is important, be consecrated to Lucifer. Although the writer, like many other billions, have contracted the spirit of antichrist, they are not as yet consecrated to Lucifer - but this might change for a world consecration to Lucifer is being prepared - please look up Findhorn, Benjamin Creme, New Age , Lucis Trust etc etc - If one of you desires to attain the salvation of your souls return to the sacraments of the Catholic Church - only a very few of the six billion people in the world right now will be saved, the invitation is open to everyone, the Lord says emphatically, that He shall save 'Without Cost' anyone who thirsts this salvation. On my part I have no intention of spending eternity in the agony of hell because of the misleading lies of today's demonic smear campaign. Down with the Antichrist, Down with Lucifer!
Sat Jul 07, 12:29:00 AM 2007 
 gunny said...
this is what you put:
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 1 John 4:3
if you go only one verse before that with this one it will make more sense than your attempt to slam the bible.
2/ By this you know the Spirit of God: Every Spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. 3/And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
BTW there's no colon in "And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: [<-] and this is that [spirit] of antichrist" it's a period which changes the whole meaning of the sentence.


i love how you take verses out of context. how about next time you're slamming the bible you tell the whole truth and not telling half of it. good job misleading everyone.
Tue Aug 14, 11:00:00 AM 2007 
 Steve Wells said...
Thanks gunny for the correction and sorry it took me nearly a year to correct it! I don't see how it changes the meaning all that much, though. But maybe you can explain that for me.
Wed Jul 09, 09:43:00 PM 2008 
 David said...
No wonder xians hate gays! I'm proud to be an anti christ
Wed Jul 20, 09:39:00 PM 2011 
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