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30 July 2010Surah 2:106-138: Abrogation, proof, and Allah's coloring book
The section begins with a verse that contradicts itself.
Nothing of our revelation (even a single verse) do we abrogate or cause be forgotten, but we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof. 2:106
Nothing in the Quran, not a singe verse, is wrong -- except for the verses that are wrong, that is. And Allah will replace them later with better verses.
There is some disagreement among Muslims about this abrogation thing. Did Allah fix earlier messed up verses in the Quran with better ones later on? Or is every verse in the Quran correct as is?
They all seem to agree, though, that when it comes to the Quran, later is better. Allah may have made some mistakes when he revealed the Quran to Muhammad, but if so, he corrected them as he went along. Allah is wise, all-knowing, careful.
Next Allah tells us a few things about the people of the Scriptures. The Jews and Christians know damn well that the Muslims are right, so they try to make Muslims disbelievers because they envy the truth that they know the Muslims have.
Many of the people of the Scripture long to make you disbelievers after your belief, through envy on their own account, after the truth hath become manifest unto them. 2:109a
Well, Allah says that's fine. Play nice with them until Allah tells you to get nasty.
Forgive and be indulgent (toward them) until Allah give command. 2:109b
But when they say that you must be a Christian or a Jew to go to heaven, ask them to prove it (and hope they don't ask you the same thing when you tell them that they must be Muslim to go to heaven).
They say: None entereth paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian. ...
Say: Bring your proof (of what ye state) if ye are truthful. 2:111
Beyond that, don't worry about it. Allah will make their lives miserable in this world and torture them forever after they die.
Theirs in the world is ignominy and theirs in the Hereafter is an awful doom. 2:114
And pay no attention to the know-nothings that ask Allah for a sign. (Or ask him to say something good, kind, decent, or reasonable in the Quran.)
And those who have no knowledge say: Why doth not Allah speak unto us, or some sign come unto us? 2:118a
Their hearts are all alike (they suck). Allah's revelations are clear to those that already believe that Allah's revelations are clear.
Their hearts are all alike. We have made clear the revelations for people who are sure. 2:118b
Allah will take care of the disbelievers later (by burning them forever in the Fire).
As for him who disbelieveth, I shall leave him in contentment for a while, then I shall compel him to the doom of Fire - a hapless journey's end! 2:126
Meanwhile, remember that Muslims are colored by God. And who is better at coloring than Allah?
(We take our) colour from Allah, and who is better than Allah at colouring. 2:138
I give up. Who is better than Allah at coloring?
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Bogging the Quran
Surah 2:139-158 -- Changing holy directions (qiblah)
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Posted by Steve Wells at 7/30/2010 11:43:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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10 comments:
Xaratherus said...
It still is sometimes surprising to me how every holy text that I've read relies on the same 'evidence' - that of circular logic and blind faith - in order to validate its veracity.
Of course, it really shouldn't surprise me. H.L. Mencken said it best: "The most costly of all follies is to believe passionately in the palpably not true. It is the chief occupation of mankind."
Fri Jul 30, 12:24:00 PM 2010
skanksta said...
I'm glad no one found any more ways to get saved..
Fri Jul 30, 02:04:00 PM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
Same here; just reading through that entire list once was enough... :-P
Fri Jul 30, 03:10:00 PM 2010
Nathan said...
I think Bob Ross might be better at coloring than Allah.
Fri Jul 30, 06:42:00 PM 2010
twillight said...
Well, my 4 year old little nephew is pretty good with colouring. Rly.
And I myself am pretty good playing Resident Evil 2. Finished To-Fu; Hunk for an A rank... Ok, maybe I never got anywhere an S rank, but who knows what the requirements are for that?
Sun Aug 01, 03:13:00 PM 2010
barriejohn said...
Hmmm...So Christians and Jews have to provide "proof" that theirs is the way to Heaven, but the Muslims just KNOW that their way is right without evidence, then! What absolutely illogical garbage!!
Mon Aug 02, 11:26:00 PM 2010
kat said...
abrogation----in this verse, the word "revelation" is ayah in arabic and also means "signs". The revelations/signs referred to here are the some verses of the Quran as well as some previous revelation (such as Torah, Zabur, Ingil....). For example, while Islam mostly folows Jewish law, there are some differences---in Halaka (Jewish law) the penalty for treason is death while in Islam, there is a choice in the penalty between exile or death.
There are also occassions in the Quran where the changes have been gradual---for example, rather than forbid alchohol outright, it was done over a period of time---because, as the Quran says---religion is not meant to be a burden. Some social changes are more effective when done over time than done abrubtly.
Sun Aug 22, 11:20:00 PM 2010
Jason said...
The Bible is all there is. There is nothing else that came after that is as important. Don't believe me, just read Revelation 22:17-19.
Thu Sep 09, 06:29:00 PM 2010
Nathan said...
So the Bible is true because it says it's true? So does the Quran, so how do I know which one is right?
Sun Sep 12, 07:31:00 PM 2010
Joseph said...
To Nathan, read for yourself. Explore for your own spiritual fulfillment. Do not just take the word of others as truth, they may misinterpret or be misunderstood. Instead, search diligently on your own accord. The truth will be found. Love is out there. Truth and Love are one and the same.
Thu Jan 27, 05:54:00 PM 2011
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21 July 20101 Nephi 9: Nephi names his plates
Lucky for us, Nephi left out a lot of shit his dad said while camping out in the valley of Lemuel.
And all these things did my father see, and hear, and speak, as he dwelt in a tent, in the valley of Lemuel. 1 Nephi 9:1a
He just didn't have room for it on his plates.
And also a great many more things, which cannot be written upon these plates. 1 Nephi 9:1
He only had room for important stuff -- like what to name his plates.
But first, Nephi tells us that these plates (the ones he's writing now) are not the plates that have the history of his people written on them.
And now, as I have spoken concerning these plates, behold they are not the plates upon which I make a full account of the history of my people. 1 Nephi 9:2a
No, those plates are called the plates of Nephi. That's why he calls them the plates of Nephi. He named them after his own name, which (in case you've forgotten) is Nephi.
For the plates upon which I make a full account of my people I have given the name of Nephi; wherefore, they are called the plates of Nephi, after mine own name. 1 Nephi 9:2b
There are other plates that are also called the plates of Nephi, but these plates (the ones Nephi is talking about now) are not those plates of Nephi, although they are also called the plates of Nephi.
And these plates also are called the plates of Nephi. 1 Nephi 9:2c
Now that we know which plates of Nephi Nephi is talking about, he can tell us about them.
First of all, God gave Nephi a commandment to write down the ministry of his people on these plates (which Nephi called the plates of Nephi).
Nevertheless, I have received a commandment of the Lord that I should make these plates, for the special purpose that there should be an account engraven of the ministry of my people. 1 Nephi 9:3
God told Nephi to make two sets of plates: one for "for the more part of the ministry" and the other set "for the more part of the reign of the kings and the wars and contentions" of his people.
Upon the other plates should be engraven an account of the reign of the kings, and the wars and contentions of my people; wherefore these plates are for the more part of the ministry; and the other plates are for the more part of the reign of the kings and the wars and contentions of my people. 1 Nephi 9:4
God told Nephi to make both sets of plates "for a wise purpose." But Nephi had no idea what that purpose was.
Wherefore, the Lord hath commanded me to make these plates for a wise purpose in him, which purpose I know not. 1 Nephi 9:5
And thus it is and so on and so forth. Amen.
But the Lord knoweth all things from the beginning; wherefore, he prepareth a way to accomplish all his works among the children of men; for behold, he hath all power unto the fulfilling of all his words. And thus it is. Amen. 1 Nephi 9:6
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blogging the Book of Mormon
Next episode -- 1 Nephi 10: Lehi proves Jesus wrong by becoming the greatest prophet ever
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Posted by Steve Wells at 7/21/2010 01:37:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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3 comments:
Matthew Blanchette said...
...but, of course, Joseph Smith knew the purpose, because he needed to weasel his way out of a clusterfuck.
Smith wrote in the bit about the two different plates after one of his followers' irate wife stole the first hundred and sixteen pages of the BoM from him and challenged him to reproduce them, if he was so divinely inspired; Smith then announced that, through the esteemed foresight of God, "the angel Moroni" had presented him with an entirely new set of plates to "retranslate" the stolen text from.
Of course, he couldn't remember everything; hence, the bullshit about the two different plates containing two different sets of histories, the obvious padding about "Nephi's plates of Nephi, called after Nephi", and why the vast spew of verbiage from Lehi ends abruptly as we get a 19th-century CliffsNotes version. ;-)
Tue Jul 27, 03:56:00 PM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
Here's a slightly more in-depth look at Smith's ass-covering handiwork, from a 1989 Salt Lake publication: http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/no72.htm
Tue Jul 27, 05:23:00 PM 2010
Maureen said...
hahahahaha 'Old Joe the weasel and his clusterfuck', sounds like a bedtime story for ex-mos.
Wed Jul 28, 05:07:00 AM 2010
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17 July 20101 Nephi 8: Lehi's magic happy-fruit tree
After Nephi and his brothers got back from their women-hunting mission to Jerusalem, it came to pass that Lehi had another dream -- that is he dreamed a dream; or, in other words, he had seen a vision.
And it came to pass that while my father tarried in the wilderness he spake unto us, saying: Behold, I have dreamed a dream; or, in other words, I have seen a vision.1 Nephi 8:2
(The dream that Lehi had was nearly identical to Joseph Smith, Sr.'s dream 2400 years later, before Joseph Smith, Jr. "translated" the Book of Mormon. But I'm sure that was just a coincidence.)
Lehi dreamed about tree with fruit that could make you happy if you ate it (or smoked it?).
And it came to pass that I beheld a tree, whose fruit was desirable to make one happy.1 Nephi 8:10
Lehi partook of the fruit thereof, and it was the sweetest thing he'd ever tasted, and was whiter than anything he'd ever seen before. (Being white is the best thing a thing can be in the Book of Mormon.)
And it came to pass that I did go forth and partake of the fruit thereof; and I beheld that it was most sweet, above all that I ever before tasted. Yea, and I beheld that the fruit thereof was white, to exceed all the whiteness that I had ever seen. 1 Nephi 8:11
And it made him exceedingly happy, happier than he'd ever been before. He was so darned happy he could hardly stand it. So he wanted his family to eat from the happy tree, too.
And as I partook of the fruit thereof it filled my soul with exceedingly great joy; wherefore, I began to be desirous that my family should partake of it also; for I knew that it was desirable above all other fruit.1 Nephi 8:12
So Lehi cast his eyes round about until he discovered his family.
And as I cast my eyes round about, that perhaps I might discover my family also, I beheld a river of water; and it ran along, and it was near the tree of which I was partaking the fruit.1 Nephi 8:13
Lehi told his family to eat the happy fruit, and the good members of his family (Nephi, Sariah, and Sam) ate it.
And ... I beheld your mother Sariah, and Sam, and Nephi; and they stood as if they knew not whither they should go. And it came to pass that I beckoned unto them; and I also did say unto them with a loud voice that they should come unto me, and partake of the fruit, which was desirable above all other fruit. And it came to pass that they did come unto me and partake of the fruit also. 1 Nephi 8:14-16
After the good guys ate the good fruit, Lehi cast his eyes about again until he saw Laman and Lemuel. He told them to eat the fruit, but they wouldn't do it (because they were bad).
And it came to pass that I was desirous that Laman and Lemuel should come and partake of the fruit also; wherefore, I cast mine eyes towards the head of the river, that perhaps I might see them. And it came to pass that I saw them, but they would not come unto me and partake of the fruit. 1 Nephi 8:17-18
Lehi saw an iron rod along the side of the river that people clung to as they traveled towards the happy tree.
In the background there was a mist of darkness; yea, even an exceedingly great mist of darkness that lots of people got lost in.
And it came to pass that there arose a mist of darkness; yea, even an exceedingly great mist of darkness, insomuch that they who had commenced in the path did lose their way, that they wandered off and were lost. 1 Nephi 8:23
But some managed to find the happy-fruit tree by hanging on to the rod of iron.
And it came to pass that I beheld others pressing forward, and they came forth and caught hold of the end of the rod of iron; and they did press forward through the mist of darkness, clinging to the rod of iron, even until they did come forth and partake of the fruit of the tree.1 Nephi 8:24
But after partaking of the happy fruit, the people cast their eyes about like they were ashamed or something.
And after they had partaken of the fruit of the tree they did cast their eyes about as if they were ashamed. 1 Nephi 8:25
Then Lehi cast his eyes about again and saw a big building floating in the air.
And I also cast my eyes round about, and beheld, on the other side of the river of water, a great and spacious building; and it stood as it were in the air, high above the earth.1 Nephi 8:26
The building was filled with people that were looking down and pointing and laughing at the people eating the happy fruit.
And it was filled with people, both old and young, both male and female; and their manner of dress was exceedingly fine; and they were in the attitude of mocking and pointing their fingers towards those who had come at and were partaking of the fruit.1 Nephi 8:27
Then the people who were ashamed after eating the happy fruit crawled off into the darkness and got lost.
And after they had tasted of the fruit they were ashamed, because of those that were scoffing at them; and they fell away into forbidden paths and were lost.1 Nephi 8:28
Some of the ashamed fruit-eaters made it to the big building, but others drowned.
And he also saw other multitudes feeling their way towards that great and spacious building. And it came to pass that many were drowned in the depths of the fountain; and many were lost from his view, wandering in strange roads. 1 Nephi 8:31-32
Those that made it into the big building in the sky began pointing the finger of scorn at the happy fruit eaters below.
And great was the multitude that did enter into that strange building. And after they did enter into that building they did point the finger of scorn at me and those that were partaking of the fruit also; but we heeded them not. 1 Nephi 8:33
Here's what the whole thing looked like.
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Blogging the Book of Mormon
Next episode -- 1 Nephi 9: Nephi names his plates
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Posted by Steve Wells at 7/17/2010 11:02:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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9 comments:
Matthew Blanchette said...
Wow... that is one whacked-out vision you've described, Steve; does it even mean anything? :-S
Also, you accidentally put "could make your happy" instead of "could make you happy"; just pointing it out...
Sat Jul 17, 12:01:00 PM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Darn you Matthew! (I mean thank you.) Someday I'm going to do a post without a single stupid mistake.
But yeah. The Mormons love the tree of Lehi. It symbolizes the spiritual state of mankind. I suppose the tree of Lehi is the Mormon Church; the iron rod is the Book of Mormon; and the sky building is the intellectual elite that laughs at Mormon beliefs, etc. You get the idea.
Sat Jul 17, 12:28:00 PM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
Sounds like the intellectual lovechild of Stephenie Meyer and Sarah Palin. :-P
Steve, maybe you ought to run through the post word-by-word before you release it to the public? Even I make shitloads of mistakes if I just skim through, and it might help you notice points that could use a little more snark... ;-)
Sat Jul 17, 02:45:00 PM 2010
Anders said...
Hmm, something whiter than white that makes you exceedingly happy - did the mormons invent cocaine?
Mark Twain talked about all the things that came to pass, but I also get horribly annoyed at the way it uses "yea" in all sorts of inappropriate places. Does the bible do that too?
Incidentally, am I the only one who gets an almost irresistible urge, whenever "Laman and Lamuel" is mentioned, to add "Hassenpfeffer Incorporated"?
Sat Jul 17, 03:56:00 PM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Good idea, Matthew. I'll work on that.
But some mistakes will probably sneak though now and then. If you'd like to correct them via email that would be fine with me. I'd like the focus of the discussions to be on the topic of the post rather than my stupid mistakes.
Sun Jul 18, 08:05:00 AM 2010
skanksta said...
lol @ Anders - it's like every time they enter the stage, the audience should boo and hiss !
Mon Jul 19, 04:44:00 PM 2010
zickeyzouse said...
i looove these! Keep them coming!
Tue Jul 20, 11:09:00 AM 2010
skanksta said...
question to believers...
How is that you're instantly able to see that Mormonism is a load of made up bollocks, but not the koran or bible ?
Tue Jul 20, 04:24:00 PM 2010
TaoCat said...
@skanksta - Yeah, I'd like to know that as well. What rational person would read this drivel (or the other two fairy tales,) and decide, yeah, that makes sense! Let's believe that!
I know most believers never bother to read the "holy texts" and once they decide, they've already made an emotional investment...but still. At least with scientology they string people along and release the talking clams and alien overlords slowly. Much like the frog in soon-to-be boling water.
I just don't understand suspending your disbelief for that extended amount of time.
Thu Jul 22, 01:10:00 PM 2010
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50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
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16 July 2010Surah 2:75-105 -- Little is that which they believe
Now here is something I can agree with Allah on!
Little is that which they believe. 2:88b
There is little in the Quran that I believe. Actually nothing. It's all complete bullshit to me.
And because I disbelieve in his bullshit, Allah has cursed me.
The curse of Allah is on disbelievers. 2:88a
And is my enemy.
Allah (Himself) is an enemy to the disbelievers. 2:98
And will torture me forever after I die.
They have incurred anger upon anger. For disbelievers is a shameful doom. 2:90
For disbelievers is a painful doom. 2:104
But then I deserve it. Allah revealed clear tokens and only miscreants will disbelieve in them.
We have revealed unto thee clear tokens, and only miscreants will disbelieve in them. 2:99
Of course, non-believers won't be the only people in hell.
Evil people will also be there.
Whosoever hath done evil and his sin surroundeth him; such are rightful owners of the Fire; they will abide therein. 2:81
Along with those (like the Christians) who believe only part of the scripture.
Believe ye in part of the Scripture and disbelieve ye in part thereof? And what is the reward of those who do so save ignominy in the life of the world, and on the Day of Resurrection they will be consigned to the most grievous doom. 2:85
And Jews, who are, according to Allah (bless his heart), "the greediest of mankind."
And thou wilt find them greediest of mankind for life and (greedier) than the idolaters. (Each) one of them would like to be allowed to live a thousand years. And to live (a thousand years) would be no means remove him from the doom. 2:96
Richard Dawkins has famously said that the God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction. I'm starting to think that Allah is even more unpleasant.
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Bogging the Quran
Surah 2:106-138: Abrogation, proof, and Allah's coloring book
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Posted by Steve Wells at 7/16/2010 11:57:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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10 comments:
Matthew Blanchette said...
You're right, Steve, Allah is even more unpleasant than the Old Testament God; however, you messed up on some of your spelling, saying “miscreants with disbelieve in them” for “miscreants will disbelieve in them? and “most unlpleasant” for “most unpleasant”.
Everything else is gold, though… ;-)
Fri Jul 16, 07:55:00 PM 2010
A Heathen with a Bible said...
The only thing you believe is that there is nothing which you believe; a delightful paradox!
Fri Jul 16, 09:10:00 PM 2010
twillight said...
I think "Mr. A." (this is a pun from "high School High) is more plain (and so more boring) then the Lord of Hosts.
Sat Jul 17, 01:47:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Thanks again for the corrections, Matthew!
Sat Jul 17, 08:27:00 AM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
Welcome, Steve. :-)
Sat Jul 17, 11:39:00 AM 2010
Jane said...
What ever happened to 109:6?
I'm honestly curious.
Sun Jul 18, 03:03:00 PM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Jame: What about 109:6?
Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.
I don't understand your question.
Sun Jul 18, 05:20:00 PM 2010
Jane said...
If Allah's letting people have whatever religion they want, and as evidenced by the rest of chapter 109, doesn't want Muslims to make others believe, then why torture non-believers?
Mon Jul 19, 01:27:00 AM 2010
skanksta said...
I don't think Allah holds a candle to Yahweh in the evilness stakes !
For all it's flaws - the usual god will kill you if you exercise your free will against his bollocks - the koran is definitely a moral improvement on the bible, just as NT was to OT. Being written by one bloke, it is much more coherent, structured and sensible than the bible.
That ain't sayin' much of course...
Mon Jul 19, 04:36:00 PM 2010
kat said...
Jane...
the translated word believer (english) is generic for several catagories of people which are differentiated in the arabic Quran.....for example, muttaqueen (believer)= one who has God-awareness (taqwa), muslim (believer)= one who submits, momeen (believer)= one who has faith....etc in translation these catagories are all lumped together as believer.
on the other hand.....the word disbeliever (english) has a much more specific meaning in the arabic....the word kaffir (disbeliever) has the meaning of ---one who covers up----the root word for kaffir has the connotations of ---being ungrateful----so the word disbeliever/kaffir has the meaning of ---a person who covers up the truth/goodness/guidance because of ungratefulness
Wed Jul 21, 06:51:00 PM 2010
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06 July 2010Bryan Fischer: May each of us be a Phinehas in our own world
Bryan Fischer of the American Family Association says that each of us should be a Phinehas in own world.
Now that won't mean much to you, unless you've read the story in Numbers 25.
And, behold, one of the children of Israel came and brought unto his brethren a Midianitish woman in the sight of Moses, and in the sight of all the congregation of the children of Israel ... And when Phinehas ... saw it, he rose up from among the congregation, and took a javelin in his hand; And he went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly. Numbers 25:6-8
Here's what he has to say about it.
I want to read a passage that my wife pointed out to me this morning from Numbers 25. This is a story about a man by the name of Phinehas, the nation had lapsed into rampant sexual immorality - I don't know if that sounds familiar to you, it certainly does to me - and Phinehas was motivated to do something about this and he did something very decisive: he found an Israelite in flagrante with a Philistine woman and he ran them both through with a spear, pinned them both to the ground inside their tent, ran his spear through both of them, right into the ground. And that shook up the nation, it got their attention and they transformed, they made a decision, they turned from that kind of behavior and renewed their commitment to follow God.
...
So Phinehas is commended for his zeal, that he was willing to take action, that he was willing to act boldly, he was willing to act decisively out of his jealousy for his God and his jealous desire to see that his people, his nation, would be wholly devoted to God.
So what God is obviously looking for is more Phinehases in our day ... you know, and it's striking here, that here's the actions of one man, here is one man by his action, by his commitment, by his energy, by his commitment, by his willingness to take decisive and assertive action when that's what was called for, he alone was able to turn back the wrath of God from his people, from his nation.
So may his His tribe increase, may each one of us be a Phinehas our own world and in our own generation.
Mr. Fischer has later tried to deny that he was saying what he so obviously was saying: that we should all go out and murder people having (interracial?) sex. And yet it was the double murder of the interracial couple that made Phinehas a hero to Bryan Fischer and his God.
Here's his attempt to deny what he previously said.
So in Bryan Fischer's authorized (chicken-shit) revised version, Phinehas was a hero for murdering the interracial couple and each of us should imitate him and thereby become a Phinehas in our own world, but none of us should actually do what Phinehas did.
Posted by Steve Wells at 7/06/2010 08:59:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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36 comments:
tsme said...
OMMFG!!
Is there no way I can link this blog post to my facebook?!
I mean REALLY!
OMMFG!
Wed Jul 07, 03:40:00 AM 2010
mikespeir said...
Having taught the Bible for years, I knew just what the subject would be when I read "Phinehas." Even as a Christian this story was an embarrassment to me. There's just no way to polish it up so it shines. There's no way to deal with it honestly except to admit that, according to the Bible, God thought this kind of murder was a good thing, at least at one time. Dispensationism won't solve the problem. There has never been a time when such an act wasn't evil--even if God does exist and even if he did expect it.
Wed Jul 07, 07:31:00 AM 2010
busterggi said...
Actually the woman was the same race, just a different tribe. The 'crime' was not fucking within the tribe/family.
Its really just an endorsement of incest.
Wed Jul 07, 10:05:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Yeah, you're right, busterggi. I should probably change "interracial" to "inter-tribal" or "inter-religious" or something.
Wed Jul 07, 01:30:00 PM 2010
Drew said...
"But it's just the Old Testament!"
"You're misinterpreting!"
"They were wicked sinners that deserved to die!"
"Who are you to question God?"
Oh sorry, my Christian excuse creator went off again. Damn thing's always broken.
Wed Jul 07, 04:07:00 PM 2010
dbd said...
The god of the O.T. (and any other book or religion that claims him) is not worthy of my worship or participation.
Wed Jul 07, 05:21:00 PM 2010
Bob Hutton said...
I don't agree with killing but I do beleive it is sometimes justified to break the law.
www.bobhutton1.blogspot.com
Thu Jul 08, 02:30:00 AM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
Never mind that Mr. Fischer identified the "Midianite" woman as a "Phillistine" woman (which most Bible believers equate with Samson's enemies); the crazy old white-haired guy actually has a TV show? :-O
Thu Jul 08, 02:06:00 PM 2010
D.O.K said...
@Drew :
"But it's just the Old Testament!"
"You're misinterpreting!"
"They were wicked sinners that deserved to die!"
"Who are you to question God?"
It is the old testament (Numbers is in the OT...yes, you are right)
You're NOT misinterpreting what is written
They were sinners - though i can't comment on wether they deserved to die
and i DEFINITELY agree with the last one.
Honestly... God hates sin, He hated it then, He hates it now. But those people LIVED UNDER A LAW!!! They broke the law - there were consequesnces.
What about when people break the law in the US and in some states can still be handed down a Capital Punishment? Is that okay because its decided by man?
Thu Jul 08, 06:01:00 PM 2010
TaoCat said...
So Bob Hutton, you endorse this guy? Why would you not kill for your loving god? You think what Phinehas did was moral?
Fri Jul 09, 08:29:00 AM 2010
TaoCat said...
Lovely, D.O.K. So the crime of having sex with the wrong person deserves death? God hates sin so much that he'll endorse insane punishments and cruelty beyond measure?
I find it very difficult, nearly impossible to understand how people can think that this biblical drivel is worthy of worship. At what point does your thinking warp so much that you begin justifying god's perverse pleasure in meting out insane punishments, often at infants.
Somehow, people take this seriously. I really cannot fathom how they do it.
Sat Jul 10, 04:06:00 PM 2010
skanksta said...
Even as an avid reader of this blog for more than 6 months now, I'm STILL suprised and disturbed by just how insane America is.
Where does this guy get off ?
DOK, (any other believer) how do you justify this offensive nonsense ?
I'm in love with a woman of a "different tribe" and looking forward to making coffee babies...
I'd (of course), be well fucked off if some religious nut was to spear us to death, but it's absolutely clear that god (and his apologists/believers) would think this ok ! Even justified !?
W
T
F
!
Sat Jul 10, 07:12:00 PM 2010
JDavis109 said...
Mr. Fischer should heartily applaud the theocratic Iranian government, which sentenced a woman to death by stoning for allegedly committing adultery ... But only if it was done in the name of the Christian god, not the Muslim one.
Sat Jul 10, 09:10:00 PM 2010
skanksta said...
As is often the case with this blog, I have to google up these wicked nutters and I found this gem, which cheered me up somewhat...
http://may-chang.com/?p=1097
Sun Jul 11, 02:08:00 AM 2010
D.O.K said...
@TaoCat
Okay, I was PURELY commenting in response to what Drew said and to the story of Phinneas. I was NOT agreeing with Bryan Fischer by ANY means - what he said was madness. Really ridiculous.
Re: Numbers 25. If you read from Number 22 you might actually understand the ENTIRE story - Phinneas wasn't just killing an "inter-racial" couple (God isn't racist - PLEASE!).
Balaam was a pagan Midianite. He was called by Balak (The Moabite king) to curse the Israelites. Eventually he devises a plan to bring God's wrath upon Israel.
He does this by going back to Moab and bringing its heathen women over to lure the Israelite men to indulge in sexual perversion and IDOLATRY (the women had the Israelites worshipping BAAL idols - that's kind of the key here - they were The Chosen People and they were worshipping other God's just because of a few seductive hotties!!!!!).
The final straw was when there was no shame left in what they were doing, and one man bought one of the women (a permiscuous Madianite woman) back to the Isreaelite camp.
Phinneas (who is actually the grandson of Aaron) was a faithful servent of God, he saw what was going on, and how Balaam had orchestrated the plan to bring God's wrath upon the chosen people, so he ended it.
It isn't about what tribe or race the woman was, in fact it wasn't so much about the woman at all - more about what the Israelite men bowing down to other God's just to get some.
But the reason was killed too was becuase she was actually the daughter of a influential Midianite leader - the plan was a delibrate one to bring down Israel but the Midianites and the Moabites - so they would receive God's wrath also.
There is a law about bowing down to false idol's. This law was being broken, there were consequences.
@TaoCat - i honestly hope you and your partner are extremely happy and do make coffee babies - i am sure they will be beautiful babies too.
Sun Jul 11, 06:59:00 PM 2010
D.O.K said...
@Skanksta - sorry that last comment was for you, not TaoCat.
Also - re: justifying offensive material. I won't justify it. It's not right, i wouldn't dare encourage or condone what Bryan Fischer said.
He has no place encouraging that sort of hate. Its almost like Fred Phelps, though maybe not quite as bad. Just becuase they call themselves christians, doesn't mean what they say is of Christ.
People do all kinds of things in the name of God, i see a lot of it and it makes me sick and it breaks my heart (again, Fred Phelps is a sickening exmaple of this). If you are going to judge me on what other Christians do, then so be it. But i am simply a follower of Christ - and Christ was LOVE! Not Hate!
Sun Jul 11, 10:31:00 PM 2010
skanksta said...
@ DOK
well, it's good of you to reply - and you seem like a nice fella - but I think if the OT is ABOUT anything, it's about justifying genocidal racism.
This might sound weird to you, but I think these nutters are actually MORE honest. They are treating the bible as transcendent morality and trying to implement it's conclusions and lessons. Sorry to say it, but it seems you are doing mental gymnastics to try and filter this wicked, backward nonsense through modern morality.
The god of the bible IS racist again and again and again - it's impossible to read it any other way.
Tue Jul 13, 02:12:00 PM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
Balaam, according to a good portion of Numbers, was a prophet of God who repented; remember Balaam and his ass?
You're really brainwashed, D.O.K., you know that?
;-)
Tue Jul 13, 02:48:00 PM 2010
D.O.K said...
@ Matthew Blanchette : You're right in that God used Balaam to bring prophecy through. But Balaam was still a PAGAN Midianite.
God gave him a word at each of the seven alters FOR Israel. Balaam even went out and blessed Israel, completely forgetting his mission from Balak it would seem. But in the end, corrupting the morals of Israel WAS a plan devised by Balaam.
Number 31:16 says
Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD
Its pretty clear.
Re: brainwashing... I have faith buddy - that's all :)
@ skanksta : I think its funny that you think i'm doing mental gymnastics, when all i am doing is reading the word - its all very clear to me. But then i guess i know the true character of God.
Also - I'm female :)
Tue Jul 13, 06:37:00 PM 2010
skanksta said...
Apologies DOK, you seem like a nice lady !
Could you tell me - since you know - what...
IS the true nature of god ?
and why didn't he make the moral of this 'Phineas' tale clearer - since it would obviously be taken as "it's good to kill those he conduct inter-racial sex" ?
Wed Jul 14, 12:09:00 PM 2010
D.O.K said...
@Skanksta...
Sorry for such a late reply - i've had a winter cold for the past week.
The Character of God - yeah i do know it actually - its all in his word.
God... is awesome! He is a devine healer and a faithful protector. He provides me with everything (yes, EVERYTHING) i need. I am in need of NOTHING with his consistent provision.
I am not one of those people who has had a sheltered and perfect life - there have been tough spots but God has delivered me from some pretty sludgy clay (and i'm talking about GOD - not the church - GOD!) He has redeemed me and made me whole again from where i was.
He has loved me with a love beyond all comprehension. I have an inheritance of perfect peace (unfathomable peace) in my life, and COMPLETE protection of the blood of the lamb.
Honestly, even though we, as christians, are meant to have faith - God has been way more faithful with me then i have been at times with Him. He is secure and solid and unchanging. He is the same always - consistent and NEVER forsakes or leaves or disappoints.
Ultimately - becuase of how much He loves and cares for us, the freedom i have in Jesus Christ has saved me (eternally as well as physically & spiritually).
God is good hey... i will vouch for that until my last breath. If only you could have experienced what i have - there would be no doubt in your mind.
Re: Phinneas - i don't know that it *IS* taken this way. I mean obviously it has been this time, but i have heard this story before - more then once, and i have always known it to be about the Israelites bowing down to false idols - not anything about inter-racial couples :)
Sun Jul 18, 07:00:00 PM 2010
Steve Wells said...
DOK, you said:
"Re: Phinneas - i don't know that it *IS* taken this way. I mean obviously it has been this time, but i have heard this story before - more then once, and i have always known it to be about the Israelites bowing down to false idols - not anything about inter-racial couples :)"
Let's forget the interracial thing. Maybe it wasn't that. But whatever it was, do you think it was a good thing for Phinehas to do? (Impale the Midianite woman and the Israelite man through their bellies while they were having sex?)
Sun Jul 18, 07:37:00 PM 2010
D.O.K said...
@Steve ... mmm honestly - no *I* don't think it was a "good" thing to do. But i didn't live 3000 years ago. I can't claim to understand anything about that time. Phinneas was Aaron's grandson, i would say he was a pretty faithful servent of God, what he was seeing would have been sickening to him, and as a faithful servant of God he would have known there would be consequences to these actions - They weren't covered by Grace then - so he put an end to it.
Things WERE bloody back then. They were black and white. There was a different understanding of justice and a higher standard of morality. We can't understand that in this sort of society/world.
Sun Jul 18, 09:16:00 PM 2010
Steve Wells said...
So you don't think it was a good thing to do, D.O.K.?
God thought it was a wonderfully good thing to do, and he praised and rewarded Phinehas for doing it. I guess you know better than God, eh? (Of course you do; we all do.)
Mon Jul 19, 11:05:00 AM 2010
skanksta said...
touche ! (from Steve - again).
DOK, your god sounds lovely - but he sure ain't the one from the bible !
Mon Jul 19, 04:30:00 PM 2010
D.O.K said...
Haha Steve, i am just a human... in *my* mere human understanding, of course i admit i don't *completely* understand all the ways of God. God is God and that is good enough for me.
You can twist my words all you want, but i don't and won't ever know "better" then God...and neither do you buddy...good try though :)
Mon Jul 19, 05:52:00 PM 2010
skanksta said...
"twisting my words" indeed DOK !
THE WHOLE POINT IS, THAT HE'S LETTING THE GODS SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES - BY STUDYING WHAT THEY ACTUALLY TELL HUMANITY IN THE HOLY BOOKS THEY WROTE.
Tue Jul 20, 04:03:00 AM 2010
TaoCat said...
Gahhh! What is it with believers? "Oh, we can't understand the mind of god, god was only following the morality of his time, he is good and love and the killings, well, they're just old testament stuff. He sobered up for jesus.
Wrong is wrong. You don't have to understand the god's motivation, just the motivation of the jerks that wrote the bible. He is portrayed as a jerk, because it was made up by jerks making god in their own jerky image.
Doesn't the fact that the bible portrays this loving, all-knowing god as a bronze-age patriarchal father-figure having temper-tantrums give you a clue?
According to your funny little book, we were supposed to know good from evil. Phinehas.Was.Evil. No amount of vacillating about morality can excuse a barbaric and cruel act. It doesn't matter the mores of the time, god is SUPPOSED TO BE ABOVE THAT.
Bible-god is evil. Still, the believers make excuses for him, much like a battered spouse..."oh, he beats us because he loves us..." "We just don't understand him..."
Buy a clue or two. The inability of believers to own up to their own literature is maddening.
Tue Jul 20, 05:34:00 AM 2010
D.O.K said...
I'm not going to get into a debate with you on the character of God. God can defend Himself, I'm not going to sit here and argue with you about it.
I know the characer of the God i have a relationship with and nothing that can ever or will ever be said can change my heart about it.
God is good. "He beats us cause He loves us?" Ha - laughable.
I will say this - i think its sad that you all read the word and believe whatever you believe because you think your clever or braver or above us "christians" but on The Day of the Lord "clever" and "brave" won't help you much if you aren't a believer.
I heard someone say once that the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" from Matthew isn't necessarily talking about the fear and pain one will experience in Hell but rather the deep remorse and anguish they will feel when they realise they never accepted the chances they got to learn the truth.
Tue Jul 20, 06:25:00 PM 2010
TaoCat said...
Yeah, and muslims say the same thing. And Jehova's witlesses, and mormons, and catholics. They all have a cozy relationship with god, and the same proof-"I feel it in my heart.." So maybe you're gonna be gnashing your teeth or whatever. You have no more proof than buddhism, shinto or islam.
Or, people made the whole religion thing up, and kept it going because it helped to keep people from going all existential and angsty. It sure is easier than thinking.
Finally, if there was a loving god, don't you think he/she wouldn't make you jump through hoops to be saved? Just sayin'.
Wed Jul 21, 05:58:00 PM 2010
D.O.K said...
@ TaoCat :
Actually i *didn't* have to "jump through hoops" to obtain salvation. You have this idea in your head that its SO hard to be a Christian and we must be SO exhausted from keeping up with all the rules....And before you tell me to go read Steve's post on 115 ways t be saved - you should probably check the context behind them (yeah yeah - i used the context line... how about i'll stop using that line once you all start reading the word in context for yourselves rather then taking Steve's blog as gospel!)
Maybe you should read some of what Paul wrote on Grace (read the letters to the churches. Read Romans and Corinthians!). There is freedom in Jesus Christ. Why do you think its called the "Good News"... not because its hard and unbearable and impossible to live up to... we were saved from ALL of that when Jesus took our sins to the cross.
Just sayin'
Wed Jul 21, 08:07:00 PM 2010
TaoCat said...
I don't think it is impossible to live up to, unless you try to follow that silly book. It is pointless, though. "Love me, praise me, or burn."
Why don't you read some more of Steve's blog? God killing little kids for making fun of a bald guy, sexual killing, killings for "strange fire." The reason you don't question it is because you can't. It is ludicrous.
Almost every little religion believes that they, and only they, have the answers. You can't see that you are no different from the muslim, from the hindu, from anybody else. You're sure because you're sure. What makes you right and the muslim wrong? You both think you have a relationship with god. You can point to the bible, and they to the koran, and you're still both clutching at straws.
I have read the bible, thanks. I only wonder after having read it, why anybody takes that crap seriously. Try thinking instead. It's really underrated.
Wed Jul 21, 11:21:00 PM 2010
D.O.K said...
@TaoCat : You know i kind of feel like you're beating a dead horse here buddy. Every one of your responses is generally the same - its all getting kind of old. Right down to the little dig at the end about how i mustn't have a single thought of my own since I am a christian.
I do have one thought : Jesus Christ is Lord! (How about that eh?)
:)
Thu Jul 22, 05:44:00 PM 2010
TaoCat said...
How cute. Of course it wouldn't get old if you explained how your religion was different from any other religion, instead of chirpy little digs "Jeebers is great!"
So I will await to hear how your faith is different from all the other competing religions. And try, oh so hard, not to use the circular logic chestnut- "the bible is true 'cause the bible says it's true!" or the equally hackneyed "I know it in my heart.."
Because every other religion says *the*exact*same*thing. Bad news, you can't all be right. So explain away...
Good luck.
Thu Jul 22, 08:28:00 PM 2010
D.O.K said...
Yeeeah... see i'm not really called to explain myself, or my beliefs to you. I'm called to spread the word of God, and you claim to already know that, so at the risk of trying to live up to YOUR standards and YOUR requests... i think i'll probably choose to NOT "explain" anything to you :)
I can tell you this though... i would bet my bottom dollar that one day there is going to come a time that you're going to need God - and on that day, if you were to ask Him - He'd be there for you.
Thu Jul 22, 09:25:00 PM 2010
TaoCat said...
Yeah, I cry bullshit to that. Surprisingly, not everybody needs the mental crutch of your faith. I also notice you've failed utterly to answer any of my inquiries as to the validity of your faith, or why I should give it the least bit of precedence over islam, moronism or scientology. Just the smarmy smugness of the believer clutching at the scattered ideology of faith. And with your "I don't have to answer to you," bit, I suspect you can't answer my legitimate questions.
Life is wonderful, even without believing in a father-figure sky-pixie. You don't really need religion to find purpose. I find it very troubling when your kind simply soft-pedal the horrific aspects of the bible, and downplay what is actually written there instead of owning up to your legacy.
Fri Jul 23, 12:01:00 AM 2010
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06 July 20101 Nephi 7: Oh Fetch! We forgot the fricken women!
Remember how Nephi and his brothers had to return to Jerusalem to get the brass plates? Well, now they have go back again to get some women. Otherwise they'd have to have sex with their mom in order to populate the New World, and that's just too yucky for Mormons to even think about. (It was OK for Adam's family back in the day, but not for Mormon Israelites in 600 BCE.)
So after Lehi made an end of prophesying about his seed, God stopped by to chat for a while. God said that he couldn't help but notice that Lehi didn't bring any women along with him, and God just didn't think it was meet for Lehi not to have some daughters to give to his sons. What were they going to do, God asked, fuck their own mother? (I'm paraphrasing here.)
And now I would that ye might know, that after my father, Lehi, had made an end of prophesying concerning his seed, it came to pass that the Lord spake unto him again, saying that it was not meet for him, Lehi, that he should take his family into the wilderness alone; but that his sons should take daughters to wife, that they might raise up seed unto the Lord in the land of promise. 1 Nephi 7:1
So God commanded Lehi to send his four sons back to Jerusalem (again!) to get Ishmael and his family. That way Nephi's sons would could have sex with Ishmael's daughters instead of their mom.
And it came to pass that the Lord commanded him that I, Nephi, and my brethren, should again return unto the land of Jerusalem, and bring down Ishmael and his family into the wilderness. 1 Nephi 7:2
And so it came to pass that Lehi's sons went back to Jerusalem one more time.
And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did again, with my brethren, go forth into the wilderness to go up to Jerusalem. 1 Nephi 7:3
It was just another quick, uneventful, 400+ km trip. After they arrived, the Lord softened up Ishmael's heart enough that he agreed to leave Jerusalem with his family and go into the wilderness so that Lehi's sons could have sex with Ishmael's daughters.
And it came to pass that we went up unto the house of Ishmael, and we did gain favor in the sight of Ishmael, insomuch that we did speak unto him the words of the Lord. And it came to pass that the Lord did soften the heart of Ishmael, and also his household, insomuch that they took their journey with us down into the wilderness to the tent of our father. 1 Nephi 7:4-5
But then deja vu came to pass all over again. Laman and Lemuel revolted, along with two of Ishmael's daughters and two of his sons.
And it came to pass that as we journeyed in the wilderness, behold Laman and Lemuel, and two of the daughters of Ishmael, and the two sons of Ishmael and their families, did rebel against us; yea, against me, Nephi, and Sam, and their father, Ishmael, and his wife, and his three other daughters. 1 Nephi 7:6
The whole rebellion thing came to pass because they were desirous to return to the land of Jerusalem.
And it came to pass in the which rebellion, they were desirous to return unto the land of Jerusalem. 1 Nephi 7:7
And then Nephi gave a speech that no one should ever have to read or listen to.
And now I, Nephi, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, therefore I spake unto them, saying, yea, even unto Laman and unto Lemuel: Behold ye are mine elder brethren, and how is it that ye are so hard in your hearts, and so blind in your minds, that ye have need that I, your younger brother, should speak unto you, yea, and set an example for you? How is it that ye have not hearkened unto the word of the Lord? How is it that ye have forgotten that ye have seen an angel of the Lord? Yea, and how is it that ye have forgotten what great things the Lord hath done for us, in delivering us out of the hands of Laban, and also that we should obtain the record? Yea, and how is it that ye have forgotten that the Lord is able to do all things according to his will, for the children of men, if it so be that they exercise faith in him? Wherefore, let us be faithful to him. And if it so be that we are faithful to him, we shall obtain the land of promise; and ye shall know at some future period that the word of the Lord shall be fulfilled concerning the destruction of Jerusalem; for all things which the Lord hath spoken concerning the destruction of Jerusalem must be fulfilled. For behold, the Spirit of the Lord ceaseth soon to strive with them; for behold, they have rejected the prophets, and Jeremiah have they cast into prison. And they have sought to take away the life of my father, insomuch that they have driven him out of the land. Now behold, I say unto you that if ye will return unto Jerusalem ye shall also perish with them. And now, if ye have choice, go up to the land, and remember the words which I speak unto you, that if ye go ye will also perish; for thus the Spirit of the Lord constraineth me that I should speak. 1 Nephi 7:8-15
After listening to Nephi's awful speech, Nephi's brothers were exceedingly wroth. So they tied him up and left him for the animals to eat.
And it came to pass that when I, Nephi, had spoken these words unto my brethren, they were angry with me. And it came to pass that they did lay their hands upon me, for behold, they were exceedingly wroth, and they did bind me with cords, for they sought to take away my life, that they might leave me in the wilderness to be devoured by wild beasts. 1 Nephi 7:16
But then Nephi prayed unto the Lord.
But it came to pass that I prayed unto the Lord, saying: O Lord, according to my faith which is in thee, wilt thou deliver me from the hands of my brethren; yea, even give me strength that I may burst these bands with which I am bound. 1 Nephi 7:17
And, just like magic, the cords were untied.
And it came to pass that when I had said these words, behold, the bands were loosed from off my hands and feet, and I stood before my brethren, and I spake unto them again. 1 Nephi 7:18
Nephi's brothers tried to lay hands on him again but he was saved by a daughter, mother, and brother of Ishmael, who softened the hearts of Nephi's younger brothers.
And it came to pass that they were angry with me again, and sought to lay hands upon me; but behold, one of the daughters of Ishmael, yea, and also her mother, and one of the sons of Ishmael, did plead with my brethren, insomuch that they did soften their hearts; and they did cease striving to take away my life. 1 Nephi 7:19
Then Nephi's brothers bowed down and begged Nephi to forgive them.
And it came to pass that they were sorrowful, because of their wickedness, insomuch that they did bow down before me, and did plead with me that I would forgive them of the thing that they had done against me. 1 Nephi 7:20
And it came to pass that Nephi forgave his brothers and they returned to their father's tent in the wilderness, where they killed and sacrificed some animals for God and began to get to know the daughters of Ishmael.
And it came to pass that I did frankly forgive them all that they had done, and I did exhort them that they would pray unto the Lord their God for forgiveness. And it came to pass that they did so. And after they had done praying unto the Lord we did again travel on our journey towards the tent of our father. And it came to pass that we did come down unto the tent of our father. And after I and my brethren and all the house of Ishmael had come down unto the tent of my father, they did give thanks unto the Lord their God; and they did offer sacrifice and burnt offerings unto him. 1 Nephi 7:21-22
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Next episode -- 1 Nephi 8: Pointing the finger of scorn at Lehi's magic happy-fruit tree
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Posted by Steve Wells at 7/06/2010 04:45:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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10 comments:
dbd said...
Why didn't Laman and Lemuel take 'the friken women' they wanted and STAY in Jerusalem??? (or head off to some other nearby city if they were afraid of capture)
Tue Jul 06, 07:50:00 PM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Well, dbd, I think they would have done that but then a daughter of Ishmael, along with her brother and mother, softened up their hearts (7:19) before they got a chance to escape with the fricken women. And I guess they lost interest after their hearts were softened. It happens.
Tue Jul 06, 08:05:00 PM 2010
Urban Koda said...
I think the 'official reason' is that they didn't want Laman and Lemuel telling the rest of the Israelites they they had left, but that raises another couple of questions...
If you were Laman and Lemuel, would you admit being related to the crazy visionary man, and the brother who was always spouting off about how great he was.
And if the Israelites found out the Lehi and his self righteous little punk son had escaped, why waste the time going after them.
Tue Jul 06, 08:58:00 PM 2010
Sakura said...
Ah, I loved this passage, I always asked my seminary teachers growing up about this and why it was cool for adam and eve but not for nehpi and co. and they'd look SO flustered and immediately switch topics.
Tue Jul 06, 09:23:00 PM 2010
Adam said...
"and it came to pass" - anyone got the whole of the Mormon dirge in text format ? Perhaps load it into Word and do a replace on "and it came to pass" wit hblank and see just what percentage of the book is removed?
Wed Jul 07, 03:17:00 AM 2010
busterggi said...
And so it came to pass that women were just an afterthought, a means to continue procreation.
An unpleasant necessity.
Not like hanging with the boys on a clear desert night under a romantic moon.
Wed Jul 07, 10:08:00 AM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
Ahhhh, I see we've got a former Mormon on here, now! Welcome, Sakura; hope you enjoy your stay, here -- and feel free to add more to the conversation! :-)
Thu Jul 08, 02:02:00 PM 2010
skanksta said...
2nded Sakura - I've never met a Mormon !
Don't think we have any..
Sat Jul 10, 07:05:00 PM 2010
Keshia said...
Sakura, one reason that God wanted the Nephites to go get other women instead of procreating with their mother is pretty simple science. With Adam and Eve, there was no problems with DNA. Over time, problems happened. By this point in history, interbreeding would have created offspring that wouldn't have had everything there. Look at anything that has severe interbreeding and you can see that I am right. That is why in a lot of states it is illegal to marry your first cousin; it would create problems with the offspring.
Mon Mar 21, 12:03:00 PM 2011
Sillinde Blackthorne said...
So, after all these 400+ km trips done in three days each time, I had to play with some numbers. I estimate a little, so please don't go too nuts, here. It still illustrates a point. 400km is approximately 240miles. It's more than that, but I figure 240 makes each daily distance easily 80miles. Average walking speed of a human is 3.1mph, according to Wikipedia's extremely informative article on walking. At 80 miles per day, Nephi and Friends had to walk approximately 25.8 hours per day. I would assume that, carrying back brass plates containing tons of records and genealogy would slow them down, or traveling with the family of Ishmael, or HOLY HELL THEY'RE WALKING 80 MILES A DAY.
Thu Jun 13, 01:10:00 AM 2013
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01 July 20101 Nephi 6: It mattereth not to me that I am particular
In the last chapter, Lehi's family spoke in a certain manner of language. In this chapter, Nephi says nothing at all.
He's not going to say anything about Lehi's genealogy.
And now I, Nephi, do not give the genealogy of my fathers in this part of my record; neither at any time shall I give it after upon these plates which I am writing; for it is given in the record which has been kept by my father; wherefore, I do not write it in this work. 1 Nephi 6:1
"It sufficeth" for him to say that he and his family are descendants of Joseph. (But you already knew that from the last chapter.)
For it sufficeth me to say that we are descendants of Joseph. 1 Nephi 6:2
The reason Nephi is going on and on about nothing at all is that he doesn't have room to say anything. After all, he's writing all this down on metal plates. You wouldn't waste words if you were doing that, would you?
That's why it mattereth not to him that he is particular to give a full account of all the things, etc., etc.
And it mattereth not to me that I am particular to give a full account of all the things of my father, for they cannot be written upon these plates, for I desire the room that I may write of the things of God. 1 Nephi 6:3
So he's not going to write pleasing things; he's going to give commandment unto his seed.
Wherefore, the things which are pleasing unto the world I do not write, but the things which are pleasing unto God and unto those who are not of the world. ... Wherefore, I shall give commandment unto my seed. 1 Nephi 6:5-6
And that's all Nephi has to say about that.
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Next episode -- 1 Nephi 7: Oh Fetch! We forgot the fricken women!
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Posted by Steve Wells at 7/01/2010 09:26:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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5 comments:
Brian said...
Love the blog, its like an atheist daily devotional! Glad to see you are going over the BoM now. Keep up the good fight.
Thu Jul 01, 09:36:00 AM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
It seems almost like Joseph Smith either couldn't come up with a convincing enough genealogy for Nephi and company, or just thought he had learned the lesson of too many "this fellow begat that fellow"s from the Bible... which is strange, then, considering all the infamous "came to pass"es he subsequently used. :-D
Thu Jul 01, 05:21:00 PM 2010
busterggi said...
I wanna see Nephi's birth certificate.
The original, not some 19th century copy.
Fri Jul 02, 05:29:00 AM 2010
Dez Makowski said...
not gonna lie. i love this blog. :D
Fri Jul 02, 03:36:00 PM 2010
skanksta said...
brilliant as usual Steve, but you need some Mormon believers.
I've never ever met one, or even heard of one, but sure would like to...
Tue Jul 06, 02:41:00 AM 2010
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28 August 20101 Nephi 12: Those who dwindle in unbelief will become dark, loathsome, filthy, idle, and abominable people
In the last chapter, an angel showed Nephi all the shit his dad saw and much, much more. Nephi saw dad's magic tree, iron rod, large and spacious building, the exceedingly white virgin Mary, Jesus, John the Baptist, the twelve apostles -- pretty much everything that Joseph Smith the angel could think of at the time.
Now, in this chapter, the angel shows Nephi his seed. He'll have tons of seed, as many as the sand of the sea.
And it came to pass that the angel said unto me: Look, and behold thy seed, and also the seed of thy brethren. And I looked and beheld the land of promise; and I beheld multitudes of people, yea, even as it were in number as many as the sand of the sea. 1 Nephi 12:1
Nephi's seed will live in many cities, more cities than can be counted.
And it came to pass that ... I beheld many cities, yea, even that I did not number them. 1 Nephi 12:3
But bad times are coming. Mountains will disintegrate and cities sink and burn.
I saw mountains tumbling into pieces; and I saw the plains of the earth, that they were broken up; and I saw many cities that they were sunk; and I saw many that they were burned with fire; and I saw many that did tumble to the earth, because of the quaking thereof. 1 Nephi 12:4
Then the heavens will open up and Jesus, the Holy Ghost, and the apostles (with their robes made white from being washed in Jesus' blood) will come down to minster to Nephi's seed.
And I saw the heavens open, and the Lamb of God descending out of heaven; and he came down and showed himself unto them. And I also saw ... the Holy Ghost fell upon twelve others... And these twelve ministers whom thou beholdest shall judge thy seed. And, behold, ... their garments are made white in his blood. 1 Nephi 12:6-10
But Nephi's seed will fight his brethren's seed.
And while the angel spake these words, I beheld and saw that the seed of my brethren did contend against my seed, according to the word of the angel; and because of the pride of my seed, and the temptations of the devil, I beheld that the seed of my brethren did overpower the people of my seed. And it came to pass that I beheld, and saw the people of the seed of my brethren that they had overcome my seed; and they went forth in multitudes upon the face of the land. 1 Nephi 12:19-20
And it will be awful to look at. Seed fighting seed everywhere. I doubt if there has been so much contending seed in a single paragraph since time began. (It is, perhaps, the seediest passage in all literature, with the possible exception of Ezekiel 23:20.)
Finally, the chapter comes to a thrilling conclusion with the angel showing Nephi what will happen to the seed of his brethren that dwindle in unbelief: they will become a dark, loathsome, filthy, idle, and abominable people.
And the angel said unto me: Behold these shall dwindle in unbelief. And it came to pass that I beheld, after they had dwindled in unbelief they became a dark, and loathsome, and a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations. 1 Nephi 12:22-23
(Which, as we'll see later, is the origin of the Native Americans.)
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Next episode -- 1 Nephi 13 revisited: Satan founded the Catholic church, God blessed America (and cursed the Native Americans) , and the BoM fixed the Bible
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Posted by Steve Wells at 8/28/2010 09:51:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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4 comments:
Shantivadin said...
"And it will be awful to look at. Seed fighting seed everywhere. I doubt if there has been so much contending seed in a single paragraph since time began."
So hilarious, and yet the images in my head! So gross! Like a bukkake orgy full of hate!
Sat Aug 28, 11:48:00 PM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
Wow... really nice guy, this Joseph Smith?
Racist? *hmmmph* Can't really see it... ;-)
Sun Aug 29, 07:46:00 AM 2010
Xaratherus said...
Shantivadin said: "Like a bukkake orgy full of hate!"
If I ever start a punk band, I'm so naming it 'Bukkake Orgy of Hate'.
It could be atheism's P.O.D. "This Sunday at the Insidia - B.O.H!!!"
The more that I read of the passages of the Book of Mormon, the more that I find it hilarious how Christians rail against how fake it is.
The only difference between the BoM and the Bible is that the Bible has a few millenia of appeal to tradition fallacies backing it up.
Mon Aug 30, 07:58:00 AM 2010
skanksta said...
Bukake orgy of hate !
Thu Sep 02, 07:20:00 AM 2010
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25 August 2010Douglas Wilson and I now agree on pretty much everything
OK. That might be a bit of an overstatement. But we do seem to agree on pretty much everything that we used to argue about, at least as far as I can tell anyway.
Here is a list of things that Douglas and I now seem to agree on:
No one should be burned alive or stoned to death (with the possible exception of pedophile priests).
Specifically, the following people and acts should not be punished by stoning, as required by the Bible.
Blasphemy or cursing -- Leviticus 24:15-23
Wizards or women with familiar spirits – Leviticus 20:27
Sabbath breakers – Numbers 15:32-36
Stubborn, rebellious, drunken sons – Deuteronomy 21:18-21
A city-dwelling virgin that doesn’t cry out when raped -- Deuteronomy 22:23-24
A woman who isn’t a virgin on her wedding night -- Deuteronomy 22:13-21
People who argue for the existence of another god -- Deuteronomy 13:6-10, 17:2-5
No one should obey God’s command to burn people to death. Specifically, the following people should not be burned to death:
A man, wife, and her mother if they are having an affair, get married, or whatever. – Leviticus 20:14
A priest's daughter that plays the whore – Leviticus 21:9
Homosexuals should not be executed. -- Leviticus 20:13
A Christian should not own slaves, even if they are treated well.
If you've read my previous posts about Douglas Wilson's views, you'll know that this is quite a change. Douglas and I disagreed on all of these items just a few years ago.
And it's possible that we still do. I haven't yet got a clear answer from Douglas on this list of agreements. But I hope to see it soon here.
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October 7, 2010 Update: Doug Wilson and I no longer agree on #5 (slavery).
Posted by Steve Wells at 8/25/2010 01:26:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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4 comments:
Robert said...
What about pedophile rabbis?
Wed Aug 25, 11:57:00 PM 2010
Xaratherus said...
While you're at it, Steve, perhaps you might ask him about Romans 1:29-32. At least a few of those Old Testament crimes are still spelled out and in effect under New Testament law - and R1:32 specifically states that they still "deserve death" for those sins.
Does he advocate death based on those passages as well? I think it would be far more interesting to hear his answer on that, since many Christians I've spoken with claim to be beholden only to New Testament law.
Fri Aug 27, 06:53:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Well, Doug used to be a big fan of Romans 1:29-32. He used it to show that all OT laws should be applied, exactly as written and with the specified punishments, except when specifically abrogated by something in the NT.
But he won't talk about that anymore, at least not clearly. It's too embarrassing and he'd lose too many followers. So he keeps all that to himself now.
Fri Aug 27, 07:14:00 AM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
Well, that's what religion has come to today; so embarrassing and offensive to modern mores that one must let it fester within themselves. :-/
Thanks, religion! :-P
Fri Aug 27, 07:41:00 PM 2010
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24 August 2010Glenn Beck explains how Native Americans became the blood-thirsty savages called "Lamanites" in the Book of Mormon
It's hard for any sane person to watch Glenn Beck. But if you can stand it, here's Glenn claiming that Native Americans are descended from Israelites.
Of course that's not what science says. But that, Glenn tells us, is because science and government have conspired together to hide the truth.
Why would they do that, you wonder? Well, here's what Glenn says (for those of you who can't stomach the video):
Science was colluding with government because of commerce, and religion was involved. Now why do I tell you all this stuff?
...
The history that has been erased in our nation, and in particular with the Native Americans, happened because it didn't fit the story they created: Manifest Destiny. It only works when Indians were savages and they had to have savages for commerce and government to expand. The ancient artifacts prove otherwise. Why aren't we looking into those?
Which explains why science and government hid the truth about the origin of the Native Americans. But what was the religious motive?
Glenn doesn't talk about that, but he knows what it was. Anti-Mormonism.
Most Americans, then and now, reject the Book of Mormon. And, when it comes to the Native Americans, the Book of Mormon explains it all.
Here is a condensed version of the Book of Mormon:
A small group of Israelites traveled by boat to the North America in 600 BCE. There they split into two groups: one good the other bad. The bad ones were called "Lamanites," whose descendants are what we now call Native Americans. The Lamanites fought with and completely wiped out good, fair-skinned "Nephites." God cursed the Lamanites (Native Americans) by darkening their skin and turning them into sinful, blood-thirsty savages.
And he [God] had caused the cursing to come upon them [the Lamanites] ... wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them. 2 Nephi 5:21
The Lamanites ... were led by their evil nature that they became wild, and ferocious, and a bloodthirsty people, full of idolatry and filthiness; feeding upon beasts of prey; dwelling in tents, and wandering about in the wilderness with a short skin girdle about their loins and their heads shaven.... And many of them did eat nothing save it was raw meat; and they were continually seeking to destroy us. Enos 1:20
The Lamanites ... were a wild, and ferocious, and a blood-thirsty people. Mosiah 10:11-12
The Lamanites ... were ... sinful and polluted. Mosiah 25:11
So according to Glenn Beck and the Book of Mormon, Native Americans are not just savages -- they're evil, sinful, polluted, wild, filthy, ferocious, blood-thirsty savages. God made them that way by cursing their ancestor, Laman (who was, don't ya know, an Israelite).
Sounds like the perfect story to base Manifest Destiny on, doesn't it?
I wonder why science didn't go for it?
Posted by Steve Wells at 8/24/2010 03:19:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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10 comments:
madmax said...
I agree with Beck's expose of the evils of Progressivism / Leftism. Its a shame he is religious though. It would be nice to have a hugely popular secular libertarian social commentator that excoriates the Left. But all we get are theists like Beck and Limbaugh. Its a shame for us secular Rightists.
Tue Aug 24, 03:29:00 PM 2010
D.O.K said...
Oooh i wonder if this is where Stephnie Meyers got her idea to have Native Americans as wolves in the Twilight series... she is Mormon afterall.
This is pretty offensive actually. Especially if history for Native Americans is anything like history for Native Australians - which i believe it is. Sometimes people say dumb things!
Tue Aug 24, 05:19:00 PM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
Um, really, madmax? You're on your own with that...
Tue Aug 24, 05:29:00 PM 2010
busterggi said...
Max, you are a fan of Edgar A. aren't you?
I mean, for your own sake.
Tue Aug 24, 09:05:00 PM 2010
Nameless Cynic said...
Oh, come on. There's so much more insanity in Mormonism than just that little bit
Wed Aug 25, 12:09:00 PM 2010
scott said...
In case Max is not a raven quothing "Nevermore", may i suggest that the reason for the dearth of "popular secular libertarian social commentator(s)" may be that believing a load of codswallop like the book of mormon or the bible is a perfect prerequisite for standing up in public and saying things like "Obama's a Muslim/Socialist/Fascist" or "OMG Death Panels!!" or "get [the federal government] down to the size where we can drown it in the bathtub"?
Wed Aug 25, 12:20:00 PM 2010
Steve Wells said...
"Oh, come on. There's so much more insanity in Mormonism than just that little bit."
Well, yes, there is, Nameless Cynic, but it can't all be covered in a single post. And not all Mormon insanity relates to Glenn Beck's latest craziness.
Wed Aug 25, 12:33:00 PM 2010
Markus said...
Man, I can completely understand why millions of 'merican git-'er-dones gravitate to Glenn Beck's message every week on television.
Who are you gonna trust for your news?
Well, why not a former drug addict, a recovering alcoholic and the overweight son of a pastry chef?
I mean, that's the kind of guy one needs to organize his worldview around.
Beck's also very creative. Two enthusiastic thumbs up on the government+religion conspiracy theory.
Except Beck might be surprised about the evidence already available regarding the decades of war between Native American tribes well prior to the arrival of the Europeans. I especially liked Beck's logic of conveniently omiting the hundreds of sophisticated native civilizations to the south (MesoAmerica, South America) who were evident hundreds of years before the Cheyenne, Souix, Apache and Pawnee. What about the Aleuts? Or are the Olmecs, Purapechas, Mayans, Aztecs and Mexicas all considered Lamanites too?
Wed Aug 25, 08:45:00 PM 2010
Xaratherus said...
@Markus: "I especially liked Beck's logic of conveniently omiting the hundreds of sophisticated native civilizations to the south (MesoAmerica, South America) who were evident hundreds of years before the Cheyenne, Souix, Apache and Pawnee. What about the Aleuts? Or are the Olmecs, Purapechas, Mayans, Aztecs and Mexicas all considered Lamanites too?"
Well, duh - those artifacts, like fossils of dinosaurs and prehistoric flora were planted by Satan to make us question God.
It actually made my teeth ache to type that...
Fri Aug 27, 06:46:00 AM 2010
twillight said...
He actually ended up somewhere?
Because the first 5 minutes were the biggest nonconected heap of emptiness what I've ever heared, and with a broken skull I have no more patient currently.
So ty Steve for the summerization, because in that way it turned out funny.
Tue Aug 31, 03:34:00 AM 2010
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22 August 2010The Bible is like a software license
(via The Redheaded Skeptic -- be sure to read her Bible Studies!)
Posted by Steve Wells at 8/22/2010 01:31:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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2 comments:
Matthew Blanchette said...
*applauds*
Sun Aug 22, 06:57:00 PM 2010
Xaratherus said...
That is amazingly funny. Given that I didn't read it until this morning, thanks for starting out my Monday with an LOL. :)
Mon Aug 23, 06:07:00 AM 2010
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20 August 20101 Nephi 11: A spirit shows Nephi all the shit his dad saw
Since It's been a while since I've blogged the BOM, I suppose I'd better review what's happened so far in 1 Nephi.
Chapter 1: God tells Lehi and his family to get the hell out of Jerusalem.
Chapter 2: So they travel to Arabia on the shore of the Red Sea.
Chapter 3: But then they remember that they forgot to bring Lehi's brass plates.
Chapter 4: So Lehi's sons return to Jerusalem, murder Laban and steal his plates.
Chapter 5: Lehi reads the plates and finds out that he's a descendant of Joseph.
Chapter 6: Nephi says nothing in particular.
Chapter 7: When they get back their to camp on the Red Sea, they remember that they forgot to bring any women along. So they go back to to Jerusalem get some.
Chapter 8: After they get back from their women-hunting trip, Lehi sees a magic tree and prophesies about Jesus and the apostles and pretty much everything Joseph Smith could think of at the time.
Chapter 9: Nephi names his plates.
Chapter 10: Lehi prophesies about Jesus and John the Baptist 600 years before they were born.
OK, now that we're all caught up, let's see what happens next. (I know the suspense is killing you.)
Well, the first thing that comes to pass is that Nephi ponders his dad's imaginary tree, gets caught up in the spirit of the Lord, and is transported to an exceedingly high mountain.
For it came to pass after I had desired to know the things that my father had seen, and believing that the Lord was able to make them known unto me, as I sat pondering in mine heart I was caught away in the Spirit of the Lord, yea, into an exceedingly high mountain, which I never had before seen, and upon which I never had before set my foot. 1 Nephi 11:1
And then he has a conversation with his new-found spirit friend.
The spirit asked him what he wanted.
And the Spirit said unto me: Behold, what desirest thou? 1 Nephi 11:2
Nephi said he'd like to see some of the shit his dad saw.
And I said: I desire to behold the things which my father saw. 1 Nephi 11:3
The spirit asked Nephi if he believed that his dad saw the tree?
And the Spirit said unto me: Believest thou that thy father saw the tree of which he hath spoken? 1 Nephi 11:4
Nephi said that he believed all the crazy shit his dad said.
And I said: Yea, thou knowest that I believe all the words of my father. 1 Nephi 11:5
When the spirit heard Nephi's words, it started screaming.
And when I had spoken these words, the Spirit cried with a loud voice, saying: Hosanna to the Lord, the most high God; for he is God over all the earth, yea, even above all. And blessed art thou, Nephi, because thou believest in the Son of the most high God; wherefore, thou shalt behold the things which thou hast desired.1 Nephi 11:6-7
The spirit shouted that because Nephi believes in his dad's cool tree, Jesus would come down from heaven to visit him. (Jesus believes in Lehi's tree, too.)
And behold this thing shall be given unto thee for a sign, that after thou hast beheld the tree which bore the fruit which thy father tasted, thou shalt also behold a man descending out of heaven, and him shall ye witness; and after ye have witnessed him ye shall bear record that it is the Son of God. 1 Nephi 11:7
And then it came to pass that the spirit showed Nephi his dad's magic fruit tree. It was exceedingly white, too. It was like the whitest thing he'd ever seen.
And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me: Look! And I looked and beheld a tree; and it was like unto the tree which my father had seen; and the beauty thereof was far beyond, yea, exceeding of all beauty; and the whiteness thereof did exceed the whiteness of the driven snow. 1 Nephi 11:8
Nephi and the spirit chatted for a while, and then the spirit showed him the virgin Mary. And darn if she wasn't exceedingly white, as well. (Being white is an exceedingly good thing in the Book of Mormon.)
And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the great city of Jerusalem, and also other cities. And I beheld the city of Nazareth; and in the city of Nazareth I beheld a virgin, and she was exceedingly fair and white. 1 Nephi 11:13
After the spirit showed Nephi the exceedingly white tree and virgin, it blathered on a bit about "the condescension of God" and whatnot. Then it told Nephi that the white virgin "is the mother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh."
And he said unto me: Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh. 1 Nephi 11:18
(Does this mean that God the Father had sex with Mary "after the manner of the flesh?")
Then the spirit (or its angel sidekick) showed Nephi all the shit his dad saw and more. Jesus, Mary, John the Baptist, the twelve apostles, Lehi's iron rod, the large and spacious building, angels, devils, the condescension of God, the wisdom of the world -- the works.
And the shit continues to fly into the next chapter. But I'll save that for later.
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Blogging the Book of Mormon
Next episode -- 1 Nephi 12: Those who dwindle in unbelief will become dark, loathsome, filthy, idle, and abominable people
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by Steve Wells at 8/20/2010 09:31:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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6 comments:
busterggi said...
You'd have thought Yahweh could've given a warning about the results of the rebellion against Rome in 70 CE or the Spanish inquisition in the 15th through 18th centuries CE or maybe Hitler.
I guess those minor problems weren't considered important to Yahweh or Mohammed (or was that Joe Smith - all these prophets look alike to me).
Fri Aug 20, 03:55:00 PM 2010
twillight said...
Steve, as last time you wished part of my blogging the Quran in english, I made my last post in english too.
I usually only tell the new things, but now I took over the whole sura, just for you. This time there was nothing that required a clever comment, so I went instead into full mockery, and made a "modern charicature" of that sura.
Here is the link for all of you:
http://everfreshbiblicalcanon.blogspot.com/2010/08/koran-30-bizanciak.html
Fri Aug 20, 04:58:00 PM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
Indeed; while Smith was retro-prophesying, he could've at least thrown in an actual historical reference -- but, then again, I guess that was beyond a New York farmer who regularly cribbed from the Bible, closed down a free press critical of him, and believed that Freemasons would save him from an angry mob, no?
Fri Aug 20, 05:03:00 PM 2010
I am the wise fool. said...
Oh, come on busterggi! No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!
But seriously, this religion must have held somewhat of the same attraction that Judaism did to the Jews. Judaism favored the Jews. Mormonism favored the whites.
Fri Aug 20, 05:56:00 PM 2010
skanksta said...
My copy of "Drunk with Blood" arrived today - woo !
Will prob. give it to brother-in-law for Christmas..
Fri Aug 20, 07:29:00 PM 2010
Kai Roland said...
11:18 And he said unto me: Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh.
It's been proven that the word "virgin" is a mistranslation. The original word "almah" means "young woman" (of marrying age). The mistranslation from Hebrew to Greek carried on into the New Testament, but you would figure that God showing these things to Nephi 600 years before the birth of Christ would have trusted that Nephi would know his own language?
Sun Aug 22, 01:21:00 PM 2010
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18 August 2010Blogging the Quran
1: The Opening
The Lord of the Worlds
2: The Cow
1-13: Allah is wise, mysterious, funny
14-24: Produce a surah the like thereof
25-34: Believers get pure companions in heaven, Adam learns the animals' names, and Iblis becomes a disbeliever
35-74: Allah turns Jews into apes and solves a murder mystery with a dead yellow cow
75-105: Little is that which they believe
106-138: Abrogation, proof, and Allah's coloring book
139-158: Changing holy directions (qiblah)
159-189: Hiding the Quran, cursing unbelievers, eating pork, retaliating, the death tax, and Ramadan sex
190-217: Allah's rules for holy warfare
2:218-242 Allah's guide to alcohol, gambling, menstruation, sex, and divorce
2:243-286 Zombie soldiers, Rip Van Winkle, bird talk, and other silly stories
3: The Family Of 'Imran
3:1-200 -- Allah is the best of schemers
4: The Women
4:1-34 Woe to the Women
4:35-80 Fresh skins for Allah's fire
4:81-135 Ponder on the Quran
4:136-176 -- Jesus wasn't really crucified,
it just looked that way
Posted by Steve Wells at 8/18/2010 09:28:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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4 comments:
learn said...
I have found your annotations very interesting, but I wanted to comment on your interpretation of 107: Small Kindnesses. I was surprised that this was not classified under "Good Stuff."
My understanding of this Surah was that those who do not act charitable cannot call themselves religious, no matter how much they pray or worship. This puts small kindnesses and charity at the heart of Islam.
I think you interpreted it the other way around: if not religious then cannot be charitable. But if you read the whole Surah I think it reads as: if not charitable then cannot claim to be religious.
If that makes any sense. :) Would be interested to hear your thoughts.
Sun Sep 12, 10:08:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Thanks, learn, for you comment. And you're right. I think surah 107 (at least the last 3 verses) should be included in the good stuff, and I've marked it accordingly.
The surah reminds me of the Book of James, especially verse 1:27. "Pure religion ... is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."
I still have a problem with the first part of 107, though, which seems to say that only religious people are kind to others. But maybe I'm misinterpreting it.
Fri Oct 01, 10:35:00 AM 2010
Bilal Akhtar said...
i like this blog. two reasons to like it because one is because of it is quranic and other is it is written very well.
Tue Aug 28, 05:19:00 AM 2012
plus1 said...
I would like to know one good thing that is in the Quran that has not already been said in the old testament
Wed Feb 26, 10:24:00 AM 2014
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Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
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Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
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16 August 2010Surah 2:139-158 -- Changing holy directions (qiblah)
One of the peculiar things about Muslims is that they have to pray in a particular direction: toward the Kaaba in Mecca. It is also the direction that the faces of dead Muslims point towards, and the direction that the head of an animal is supposed to be aligned with when slaughtered.
It wasn't always that way, though. Originally Muslims prayed toward Jerusalem. But then, for no apparent reason, Allah told Muhammad to start praying toward a black cube-shaped building in Mecca (the Kaaba). The Kaaba, according to Islamic tradition, was the first building on earth. Built by Adam and re-built later by Abraham and Ishmael, the Kaaba is the direction that all Muslims pray toward five times day, and is the holy site that all Muslims are supposed to visit once in their lifetime.
It's all complete bullshit, of course. There was no Adam to build the Kaaba. Abraham probably didn't exist either, but if he did, he didn't visit Mecca. The stories in Islam are as messed up as they are made up. But that doesn't stop 1.3 billion people from believing them.
Allah changed the holy direction in verse 2:143-144 of the Quran. And he blathers on about it in the rest of the verses in this section of Surah 2.
And We appointed the qiblah which ye formerly observed only that We might know him who followeth the messenger, from him who turneth on his heels. In truth it was a hard (test) save for those whom Allah guided. ... We have seen the turning of thy face to heaven (for guidance, O Muhammad). And now verily We shall make thee turn (in prayer) toward a qiblah which is dear to thee. So turn thy face toward the Inviolable Place of Worship, and ye (O Muslims), wheresoever ye may be, turn your faces (when ye pray) toward it. 2:143-4
But Allah, of course, knew that there would be scoffers (like me) that would complain about Muhammad's arbitrary change of holy directions.
The foolish of the people will say: What hath turned them from the qiblah which they formerly observed? Say: Unto Allah belong the East and the West. He guideth whom He will unto a straight path. 2:142
Yeah, Allah guides whoever the hell he wants on a straight path. And once in a while he changes the direction of the path for no reason whatsoever.
Allah is Responsive, Aware. Arbitrary.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bogging the Quran
Surah 2:159-189 -- Hiding the Quran, cursing unbelievers, eating pork, retaliating, the death tax, and Ramadan sex
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by Steve Wells at 8/16/2010 06:25:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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16 comments:
Xaratherus said...
Reading those passages, it seems to me that whomever was 'Mohammed' at the time was trying to reaffirm Islam's uniqueness from Christianity.
What better way to do that than shifting the focus away from Jerusalem to an important location within the region?
Mon Aug 16, 08:52:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Yeah, I think you're right about that, Xaratherus. It was already a famous holy pagan site, and by adopting it as the holy site of Muslims, it made the new religion popular with the locals and seem ageless, as well.
Muhammad was illiterate, but he was also a genius.
Mon Aug 16, 09:19:00 AM 2010
Nathan said...
I guess if you're taking the Bible literally (which I don't at all, mind you, but just for the sake of argument), Abraham could have stopped in Mecca on his way from Ur to Canaan.
Mon Aug 16, 03:09:00 PM 2010
busterggi said...
Of course if Allah had really wanted worshippers to face the kabbah he'd have made the meterorite in it magnetic.
Damned forgetful deities.
Mon Aug 16, 04:46:00 PM 2010
twillight said...
@Nathan
I don't think in (the supposed) Abraham's time there was no Mecca to turn towards...
@busterggi
Is there a meteorite in that building?
As far as I know it is completly closed, so that "meteorite" can be as real as the Arc of the Covenant in that stupid other building...
@Steve
According to my experience 70% of the Quran is about "doom on unbelievers", and the remaing 30% is divided in 2:1 between teling rules to muslims and saying they are the aria race.
Do you feel the same?
Tue Aug 17, 01:43:00 PM 2010
Jane said...
What I want to know, if you stumble into a Muslim prayer meeting (or whatever they have) can you turn around 180 degrees?
After all, you'd still be facing towards it.
And if you're on the other side of the Earth, do you have to look down?
Allah doesn't really think things through.
Why wasn't the Kaaba built on the moon? It would be easier to see, and would be a darn sight more impressive.
Tue Aug 17, 03:49:00 PM 2010
Steve Wells said...
twillight,
Well, it's probably not as high as 70%, but the idea that is repeated the most often (in one of the most repetitive books ever written) is "And for the unbelievers, Allah has prepared a painful doom" (or words that that effect.
I don't know which would be shorter: the condensed version of the Quran or of the Book of Mormon. They're both pretty much nothing but filler.
Tue Aug 17, 06:44:00 PM 2010
Markus said...
To take Jane's excellent comment a step further, what if you're Muslim and working/living on an orbital space station?
I guess one would pray "down to Mecca" every 24 hours or so, except the station might be rotating like a mofo.
Man, if only we could step outside our safe earthly boxes for a moment or two and laugh at our primitive selves.
Nope, out of the question. Back to what the illiterate but genius guy has to say....
Tue Aug 17, 09:14:00 PM 2010
twillight said...
Well, not turning DOWNWARD you'll surly not turn towards the Kaba. The Earth is not flat, so if you bow down anywhere farther then a couple of meter, you will bow towards a completly different direction obviously (somewhere towards the stars).
Wed Aug 18, 05:02:00 AM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
Muhammad was as gifted a prophet as Joseph Smith... except that, because Muhammad existed 1200 years earlier, he can't be insulted without angry followers threatening to bomb you. :-P
Shame that no one ever tried to look into the whole "72 grapes" thing...
Wed Aug 18, 06:54:00 PM 2010
Charles said...
Markus said...what if you're Muslim and working/living on an orbital space station?
Please see A Muslim Astronaut's Dilemma: How to Face Mecca From Space.
I also found it interesting that Indonesian Muslims (blessed be their name) have been told to change prayer direction.
Wed Aug 18, 11:34:00 PM 2010
kat said...
havn't visited for a while.....
Kaaba was a sacred place for the various tribes in the area who had their Gods there. It was apparently also a place of pilgrimage for some Christian tribes of the region. When the Prophet (pbuh) first began to pray in Mecca, he would face the Kaba but towards Jerusalem. However, in Medina, they were in different directions, so he faced Jerusalem when praying.(symbol of monotheism)
Surah 2 is a Medina Surah and this change of direction was a test, as the Quran says, because at this point, the monotheist Muslims were asked to pray towards the Kaba which still housed the Pagan Gods.
The point of having a single direction or focul point during prayers (which Muslims do 5 times a day) is to remind Muslims that we are all a single brotherhood.(Umah)---which is also partially the point of the hajj istelf---that it does not matter the color of your skin, the nationality, or sect or any other differences----our brotherhood in humanity trancends and unites.
Thu Aug 19, 09:35:00 PM 2010
kat said...
Prophet Abraham(pbuh) of the Quran is an important yet interesting character. He grew up in a community of idol worshippers and rather than blindly following the beliefs of his community---he used his own intellectual efforts to discover the One, Unique, Creator.
Thu Aug 19, 09:53:00 PM 2010
skanksta said...
The Satanic Verses is an awesome read and with the help of wikipedia, helps you get a feel for the early Islamic milieu.
Mo was a masterful business man and the return of his pilgrims yearly to Mecca he ended his feud with the chieftans who derived the money and prestige from all the other stupid idols of 'false' gods they had.
Can't recommend it enough..
Fri Aug 20, 07:27:00 PM 2010
Erich said...
@Steve
as-salaamu alaikum.
yes, indeed as you stated, 'but the idea that is repeated the most often (in one of the most repetitive books ever written)' is in fact quite true. And by design as well.
Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala states:
"Allah has sent down the Supreme Discourse, a Scripture consistent in its FREQUENT REPETITIONS.... " Az-Zumar 39:23
It is necessary for human beings to be told the same thing over and over in order for them to learn, remember and follow through with ( hopefully positive ) action.
As for the book of mormon...well...your blog has broadened my knowledge on the hilarity of that cult. thank you.
Sat Sep 11, 02:00:00 PM 2010
Sebby said...
"As for the book of mormon...well...your blog has broadened my knowledge on the hilarity of that cult. thank you."
Irony never fails to amuse me.
Sun Sep 19, 12:16:00 AM 2010
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13 August 2010My conversation with Douglas Wilson
I know, I really should get back to the Book of Mormon and the Quran. But I've found something that's even more fun to do. I'm discussing the Bible with Doug Wilson.
Doug has a blog called Blog and Mablog, and you can find it here. It, of course, is visited mostly by his followers, but anyone can register and comment. And so far at least, all of my comments have been posted.
As you may know, Douglas Wilson has recently become (even more) famous by touring the country with Christopher Hitchens. They even made a movie about it called "Collision" (which I don't recommend, by the way). I've mentioned their online debates and movie before, and I've discussed Doug Wilson's views several times.
OK. So what, you say. Why am I so interested in Doug Wilson's views?
Well, Doug Wilson and I live in the same town (Moscow, Idaho), and people from all over the country (and even the world) move here to the Palouse to join his church. He has a college downtown (New Saint Andrews College) a K-12 school (Logos), a church (Christ Church), several Christ Church businesses, and maybe (I'm guessing here) a thousand or so of Doug's followers in a town of 22,000 or so.
Christ Church is a large enough group to affect our local politics and public school system. But it's not Doug Wilson's followers that bother me: it's Doug Wilson's beliefs.
Doug used to talk openly and often about his beliefs, but ever since news about his pro-slavery book came out, he's stopped doing that. So I honestly don't know what he believes anymore.
So I went to his blog to find out. And I found something that surprised me: an old post from 2005 that was directed at me. So of course, I had to answer that. Here's the post and my reply.
I didn't get a response from that, so I thought I'd try again. In another post, Doug mentioned Philistine foreskins and there's no way I could resist that. (No response on that one either.)
And yesterday, when he began to talk about sodomites, lesbians, and virtual perverts, I just could help but jump in. I got one response from Doug in the form of a parable, along with a dozen or so from his followers. But so far there's been no answer to any of my questions to Doug.
Anyway that's my excuse for not blogging the Quran.
Posted by Steve Wells at 8/13/2010 01:27:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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23 comments:
Jim Thompson said...
Lots and lots of good interviews.
Also he does interview theist philosophers.
Fri Aug 13, 02:30:00 PM 2010
twillight said...
Don't worry toom uch about not telling us streight the scriptures.
Half of the fun certainly comes from looking at the followers :)
Fri Aug 13, 02:34:00 PM 2010
Drew said...
I admire your courage (stupidity?) for posting on his blog as many times as you did without receiving coherent, relevant responses. I'm sure a lot of Christians read them and just became really confused - perhaps they are waiting to be consoled by their pastor before replying?
Fri Aug 13, 06:09:00 PM 2010
Edwin Dai said...
Douglas Wilson believes that God's laws remains unchanged but the administrative issues surrounding the law have. What do you have to say about such an explanation Steve?
Sat Aug 14, 06:35:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Could you elaborate a bit about that Edwin? What "administrative issues" have changed?
And how do you know what Douglas Wilson believes?
Sat Aug 14, 08:32:00 AM 2010
FishHawk said...
"Dwindling In Unbelief" has been included in this weeks A Sunday Drive. I hope this helps to attract even more new visitors here.
http://asthecrackerheadcrumbles.blogspot.com/2010/08/sunday-drive_15.html
Sun Aug 15, 12:39:00 AM 2010
TaoCat said...
It is folks like Douglas Wilson that are the great hope of humanists, rationalists and everybody not needing a fairy tale to get through the day. His literal interpretations expose the bible for what it really is, not for the cherry-picked fluff most christians think it is..
Sun Aug 15, 01:00:00 AM 2010
Edwin Dai said...
Sorry Steve. Let me be clearer. I do not know what Douglas believes in. However, from my reading, it appears that what he is saying is that the law remains unchanged (e.g. it is still wrong to curse your parents), but the administrative issues have (i.e. we don't stone errant teenagers anymore).
What do you have to say about such an "explanation" concerning the Bible's more difficult verses?
Sun Aug 15, 07:14:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
I'm not sure what he means by that (that God's laws remains unchanged but the administrative issues surrounding the law have), Edwin. That's why I'm asking questions at his blog.
I guess he means that we shouldn't burn or stone people to death anymore as God commands in the Bible. We should kill them using more modern methods.
But I'll keep asking as long as he allows me to comment at his blog and I'll let you know here if I get any answers.
Sun Aug 15, 08:44:00 AM 2010
Darren Delgado said...
Edwin Dai said...
Sorry Steve. Let me be clearer. I do not know what Douglas believes in. However, from my reading, it appears that what he is saying is that the law remains unchanged (e.g. it is still wrong to curse your parents), but the administrative issues have (i.e. we don't stone errant teenagers anymore).
I'm uncomfortable with anyone believing in a God who ever thought that was a good idea.
Even if they claim he stopped thinking it was a good idea to stone people for minor moral infractions 2,000 years ago, he still thought it was a good idea before that, and that's disturbing.
Mon Aug 16, 12:22:00 AM 2010
Xaratherus said...
Talk about walking into the lion's den.
As I said in my comments regarding your other recent Wilson post, at least you are fairly certain of where you stand with him - although given that he's kept mum about his 'pro-slavery' viewpoints, perhaps he's realized that such moronic bigotry doesn't put a lot of butts in his pews (and money in his collection plates).
Mon Aug 16, 08:33:00 AM 2010
Xaratherus said...
I'd like to cross-post in response to something I just read in the comments on Wilson's blog about "metrosexuals, sodomites, catamites, lesbians, virtual perverts, bisexuals, and transgendered individuals":
Doug Sowers said:
"You still don't understand. We are talking about a society that is righteous!"
I understand him perfectly. What he fails to understand is the concept that this idea - of a government who stones to death (or burns to death) any of the above individuals, in the name of a god who is supposedly "love" - is, in no way, just or loving.
I would post my answer there, but frankly, as a gay man myself, I would prefer not to provide any sort of connection to myself on such a blatantly hateful site.
Mon Aug 16, 01:48:00 PM 2010
Markus said...
I find the notion that God's policies are intact, but that "administrative issues" have changed to be quite interesting. Reminds me of every day work situations when that certain group of employees claim "we've been doing things this way for so long because that's the way it was and we liked it!" or "because we never got the memo!"
So now I'm trying to imagine how the "administration" of Deuteronomy 22:20-21 might have changed. Not a nice verse at all really. But God is without error and always gives precise instructions. Yet there's no recorded memo regarding a permitted change in God policy interpretation and implementation. Maybe God did send a memorandum? But where is it? Does Doug Wilson have a copy to share? I mean, what if all our daughters really needed wasn't a calcified projectile upside the head, but simply a "good talking to"? Yet Christians have stopped asking and searching for more information on these questions. Ambiguity and bronze age antiquity are great hiding places. They will cling to the original operations and policy manual no matter how outdated and wrong the instructions were, and no matter how dramatically the organization and world around them may have grown and changed.
Of course we know that there isn't a lost, canon memo pertaining to a change in the execution, interpretation and administration" of God's laws. Deuteronomy 22:20-21 means exactly what it says it does. She's either a virgin or rocks must fly.
Throwing around the idea of changes to "administration issues" simply complicates matters to try and explain what's going on. It only creates more questions than it tries to answer.
Mon Aug 16, 11:47:00 PM 2010
Xaratherus said...
@Markus: "Throwing around the idea of changes to "administration issues" simply complicates matters to try and explain what's going on."
I don't know that I'd consider it to complicate matters.
It's pretty clear to me why they claim these changes: Because an attempt to hold to Bronze/Iron Age concepts of crime and punishment would lose them followers.
As (some) people become more educated, they are more likely to notice contradictions, and respond to preachers/pastors/ministers with comments like, "Wait, but if your deity is love, then how can it condone stoning someone to death for not being a virgin on their wedding day? Is that really that bad?"
So they alter the doctrine, or gloss over parts of it, in order to keep butts in the pews and coins in the collection plate.
Tue Aug 17, 07:21:00 AM 2010
D.O.K said...
@Xaratherus & Markus
Wow - do you people even READ the bible before posting. You want to see the memo from God advising Christians to no longer follow the old law? Here - i can give you EXACT reference to such memo!!!!!!
God had planned the change in law from the very beggining - He spoke about this in Jeremiah 31. He didn't "change His mind" - He had always planned it to be this way - From the start of Creation, He had always planned to send His Son to die as a sacrifice for our sins. (1Peter 1 : 19 - 20, 2 Tim : 1:9)
The convenant changed because the law - though defining what sin was, gave no freedom from sin. The law bound men to sin - there was no way to be releved from it. (Rom 7:7-13) (Gal 5:1-4)
Matthew 5:17 tells that Jesus came to FULFILL the law - Living it perfectly and then bringing it to COMPLETION (Romans 10:4).
Paul tells us in Collossians 2:14 that the old law was NAILED TO THE CROSS (it DIED when Jesus died on the cross) - Ephesians 2:15 says that Jesus aboloshied the law in His flesh!
Hebrew 10:9 talks about God taking away the first law to establish the second - we must become dead to the old law so as to be joined the new one (Romans 7:4-6). We cannot follow both laws - the first one must die for the second to be fulfilled. (Romans 7:1-4).
We cannot keep only part of the law - The word says if we choose to keep some of it we must uphold it in its entirety (Galatians 5:3), but that if we try to do this then we are not living in Christ (Galatians 5:4)
Galatians 3:24 - 25 says that the old law was our tutor to bring us to Christ we are to learn from it, and let it teach us but once Christ came it no longer had dominion over us. We can still learn from its examples but when we are determining what God would have us do today, we must turn to the current law - The examples of Jesus Christ.
I am not hypocritical or too weak to follow the old law - The church i attend DOES NOT "gloss over" parts of the bible that don't suit just to keep people in the pews (we also don't have pews, or collection plates. We have comfy chairs and bags for "offerings"). We SIMPLY follow the word of God! We are Righteous. We are Free!
Hebrews 7:18-19 (New King James Version)
For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope (Jesus Christ), through which we draw near to God.
Wed Aug 18, 07:37:00 PM 2010
Xaratherus said...
"Wow - do you people even READ the bible before posting"
Yes, actually - I've read the Bible cover to cover several times.
Matthew 5:17-18: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."
Fulfill has several definitions. One of them happens to be "to satisfy, or complete expectations".
Given the context of the passage, and the inclusion of the very specific wording that Christ did not come to abolish (a term with only definition "to do away with wholly") the law, it seems a very poor interpretation to me to claim that "fulfill [the law]" could somehow mean "complete the law so that it is done away with wholly".
When coupled with the fact that Christ supposedly continued to say that the law would not be altered in any way - even by a single letter - until "everything is accomplished", I find it less than accurate to somehow claim that these passages do away with the laws of the Old Testament.
Now, what does make sense, given the language and the context, is the use of 'fulfill' in its alternate meaning: "To put into effect or carry out". If Christ's passage is interpreted as, "I come not to do wholly away with the laws, but to put them into effect," then the phrase fits both the context and the vocabulary chosen.
By the way, the arguing of semantics regarding the fact that you don't use pews or collection plates at your church makes me laugh. Pews or chairs, baskets or bags - it doesn't make a difference.
So far you've failed to provide me any convincing reason to think that your church (like thousands of others) isn't interpreting the Bible in such a way as to make it palatable to a non-Iron Age, (mostly) literate, and better-educated society so as to keep the congregation numbers up and to keep the alms dropping into the "collection bags".
Thu Aug 19, 06:18:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
DOK, I understand that your church doesn't think the Old Testament laws should be applied today. But Douglas Wilson disagrees with you on that. (He's a reconstructionist, though he doesn't call himself that.) He reads the same Bible as you do and thinks that he is just as righteous as you think you are.
Before commenting further about Doug Wilson (that is what this thread is about, you know), I suggest you read these short statements about his beliefs.
Why are we writing about this
Knowing where to draw the line
Your eye shall not pit.
Thu Aug 19, 09:16:00 AM 2010
D.O.K said...
@Steve - i do apologise (sincerely) for going OT on your thread and having my say about the law - it was more in reply to the conversation between Xaratherus and Markus about why christians "gloss over" the old law.
I read some parts of the links you posted of things written and said by Douglas Wilson. To tell you the absolute truth, i don't know who this guy is, and i have never heard of him before now (I guess I'm kind of thankful that his teachings haven't made it as far as Australia). Do i agree with the things he says? Quite simply - No! I believe Jesus established a new life, a new example for us to live by and i don't believe that all of what Mr Wilson preaches lines up with what Jesus taught. But then if you were to ask Douglas Wilson about my beliefs i'm sure he would have a few things to say about what i believe too.
In the end though, and i have said this before, like Rev. Fred Phelps, this guys is preaching intolerence, hate and division and no matter how hard i try, i don't ever remember being taught, or having read anywhere in the Word where Jesus taught or lived any of these things.
@Xaratherus
Look, i totally understand that every Catholic, Protestant, Apostolic, Penticostal, Anglican, Baptist, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Methodist etc etc etc has a different interpretation on what the word says.
I get that my understanding of the word is just another to throw into the mix, and i can't prove to you that what i believe is the "right" understanding (not that i think you would be open to anything i said anyway becuase i am a Christian and you don't seem to like us in general :), so i can't sit here and go over and over how the Word is in interpreted within me. That is how i read it when i read it - i don't spend ages twisting and contorting it til it means what i want it to mean, and a lot of that stuff i haven't even been taught through the church (as it tends to be a "given" in our beliefs rather then something that has to be taught) its just when i open the bible to read, this is the understanding that is shaped in me from those words.
I do *believe* that when Jesus said "until everything is accomplished" He meant the cross. Therefore everything was accomplished by the cross and the law was fulfilled to completion then. I believe The new law began after Jesus died that it starts from Acts when the Holy Spirit descended onto earth.
Also - the 'comfy chairs and "offering" bags' comment was intended as a joke as like you said - it *doesn't* make a difference :) Just that even the thought of sitting in pews for over an hour makes my back ache.
Thu Aug 19, 05:55:00 PM 2010
D.O.K said...
@Xaratherus : Sorry one more thing i forgot to address.
"Abolish the law" - The law hasn't disappeared - it is still there, it is just that someone else fulfilled it perfectly for us as human's could not (honestly - you've read it - its IMPOSSIBLE to live), therefore it is aboloshed FOR US and we are NOT required to fulfill it OURSELVES.
Trying to live to it is like ignoring what Jesus did for us. So instead we try to be Christ-like (not CHRIST but Christ-like) and follow HIS example.
If we fall short of that example we are not required ot make sacrifices etc as the sacrifice has already been made. We simply repent (turn away from what we were doing) and continue on.
In saying all that, some of the old law - like lying, murdering, stealing, judging etc were all taught by Jesus too - so there are still things in the old law that we live to but not becuase it is in the old law, but because it is part of the new.
Thu Aug 19, 06:06:00 PM 2010
Xaratherus said...
I hate to continue harping, but:
D.O.K. said: "therefore it is aboloshed FOR US and we are NOT required to fulfill it OURSELVES."
Matthew 5:17 said: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
Misspelling aside, your interpretation seems to prove my comment on an earlier blog. You say it yourself: There is no possible way that anyone (especially in the modern day) could live by the laws put forth in Leviticus and the rest of the Old Testament.
And so you interpret "fulfilled" to mean you don't have to follow them, because they were abolished for you - when the passage very clearly says otherwise.
I repeat: You claim that the New Testament removes the necessity that you follow the Old Testament laws, when in fact it very specifically says that Christ had no intention of abolishing the law - not even "the smallest letter".
We could go back and forth on this, but it's really pretty pointless to continue doing so, I think.
Fri Aug 20, 06:12:00 AM 2010
Xaratherus said...
Missed that part:
As for disliking Christians? Not int he least. Don't mistake debate for hate. My mother is a Christian; my sister is Catholic; one of my good friends is Muslim. We may disagree, but that doesn't mean I consider them unintelligent.
I guess what I'm pointing out is that, to a non-believer, the plethora of interpretations (coupled with personal interpretations like yours) are one of the reasons we can't lend any real credence to religion. We ask ourselves, "How can you build any sort of life philosophy on a book that is interpreted differently by every person who reads it?"
Fri Aug 20, 07:59:00 AM 2010
Markus said...
If Jesus "fulfilled the law", did he fulfill part of it or all of it? The "not one tittle" part reads to me like he fulfilled it all with no exceptions. So there you have it. It is all fulfilled. So no more animal sacrifices required because Jesus was the "final sacrifice". But does this mean no more stonings of non-virgins on their father's doorstep on their wedding night? Or do we keep doing that one? What about mouthy teenagers? Can we keep killing them? Hmmm, let's see what Yahweh's memo has to say about those rul.....um, a little help here?
It's a good thing I know where some rocks are - you know, in case I ever need them.
Mon Aug 23, 09:39:00 PM 2010
D.O.K said...
Markus - i know some pretty terrible teenagers, sometimes i think there should be harsher punishment or that parents should have ANY RIGHTS AT ALL to discipline their kids (ALAS, it would seem they do not... in fact it seems THE KIDS have all the rights - and they know it!)
But Galatians 5 says that if someone is going to try and uphold part of the law then ALL of the law must be upheld, but in doing so they are alienating themselves from Christ. Jesus fulfilled the ENTIRE law because he lived COMPLETELY without sin.
I don't believe Christians need to make sacrifices for their sin, and i don't believe they need to punish others for sin - as there is no law for us to uphold, just a right way of living.
Something else i find interesting is how Jesus fasted in the desert for 40 days. 'Fasting' is seen as a way by christians to get closer to God, eliminating other distractions so we can focus truly on God, but why would Jesus need to do that since He was completely in peace, at one with God?
I think He did it to remove that veil for us. So that we would not have to fast or strive to be close to God, that there wasn't a requirement for that sort of thing anymore, we could be in peace with God too, without climbing a ladder or fasting or striving or trying to be a "perfect christian" (of which there is no such thing) to get there.
I think Jesus fulfilled more on the cross then what people know.
Tue Aug 24, 05:50:00 PM 2010
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11 August 2010Jesus hates you. (So does Douglas Wilson.)
Douglas Wilson doesn't say much (out loud) anymore. But back in the day, before he became famous debating Christopher Hitchens, he used to say the darndest things.
Here, for example, is what he said in his pro-slavery booklet (co-authored in 1996 with Steve Wilkins), Southern Slavery as it Was:
[N]othing is clearer -- the New Testament opposes anything like the abolitionism of our countryprior to the War Between the States. The New Testament contains many instrucitons for Christian slave owners, and requires a respectful submissive demeanor for Christian slaves. See for example, Ephesians 6:5-9, Colossians 3:22-4:1, and 1 Timothy 6:1-5.
...
[I]n this booklet ... we will say (out loud) that a godly man could have been a slave owner. (emphasis in original)
In the last few years, though, Douglas hasn't said much (out loud or in print) about godly Christian slave owners or any of the other interesting things that he apparently still (quietly) believes.
Still, once in a while he slips up and the old Doug slips out.
The Bible teaches that God hates.
...
Not only that, but we cannot take refuge in that famous line about hating the sin but loving the sinner. This text says that God hates the people doing these things, and not just the things that are done.
...
At the Day of Judgment, it will be the sinners that are pitched into Hell, not just their sins. The place where God has made it possible to distinguish sins and sinners is in the cross of Jesus Christ. Because of that, our sins can be taken away from us, and separated from us.
...
But this is not because God decided to stop hating sin. No, He hates sin so much that He poured out His wrath on it, even though the place where that wrath was located was in the person of His Son Jesus Christ. His act of love was also an act of hatred. So they are not opposites. The greatest act of love in the history of the human race was the death of Jesus. But at the same moment, in a different respect, the greatest act of divine hatred was also the cross of Jesus.
So Jesus hates you more than you will ever know. He hates you with the greatest hatred the world has ever known. He hates you even more than Douglas Wilson hates you.
If such a thing is possible, that is.
Posted by Steve Wells at 8/11/2010 10:25:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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12 comments:
A Heathen with a Bible said...
Say what you will about fundamentalists, they certainly try hard to be logically consistent.
Wed Aug 11, 02:54:00 PM 2010
skanksta said...
@ Heathen..
They are actually MORE logically consistent with the text.
A lot of believers come on here - and they seem like very decent people - but they claim to follow the example of god in the bible when, (of course) they don't, because they would never do any of the barbaric things he does, or asks others to do.
Wed Aug 11, 05:11:00 PM 2010
I am the wise fool. said...
I am disgusted by his message, but I have to give him props for paying attention to what the Bible actually says and brazenly running with it.
Wed Aug 11, 05:19:00 PM 2010
Xaratherus said...
Better the open, visible hatred of the fundamentalist than the hidden, selective, hypocritical disdain of the "weekend Christian".
Thu Aug 12, 07:29:00 AM 2010
Patmos Pete said...
Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
Thu Aug 12, 10:01:00 AM 2010
D.O.K said...
Xaratherus said...
Better the open, visible hatred of the fundamentalist than the hidden, selective, hypocritical disdain of the "weekend Christian".
Are you saying they are the only 2 types of Christians that exist?
I'm a Christian - 7 days a week (nights too). Also not hateful.... or selective, hypocritical (I don't judge anyone on their actions, as i am not perfect) or hiding (I'm VERY proud of who I am in Christ).
You maybe want to go meet some Christians before you make a statement like that - its highly offensive.
That would be like me saying all unbelievers are evil sinners who don't know right from wrong!
Thu Aug 12, 08:55:00 PM 2010
Xaratherus said...
D.O.K said: "Are you saying they are the only 2 types of Christians that exist?
I'm a Christian - 7 days a week (nights too). Also not hateful.... or selective, hypocritical (I don't judge anyone on their actions, as i am not perfect) or hiding (I'm VERY proud of who I am in Christ).
You maybe want to go meet some Christians before you make a statement like that - its highly offensive.
That would be like me saying all unbelievers are evil sinners who don't know right from wrong!"
Way to miss the point.
There really ARE only two types of Christians in the world. There are those who follow the Bible, strictly, in every word - which is exactly what Douglas "I want slaves" Wilsom does - or there are those who cherry pick, and only follow those parts of the Bible that allow them to function in a non-Bronze Age society.
Are the latter (apparently you fall into that category) typically easier to deal with? Yes - except that there's no way to tell how one "weekend Christian"* is going to act compared to another, because they all pick which parts of the Bible they wish to follow.
When you're dealing with a fundamentalist like Wilson, you at least know what to expect: Bigotry and an attitude that's been out of date for nearly three millenia.
I'm well aware that there are tolerant, social, intelligent Christians out there. The only way they can be tolerant, social, and intelligent is to 'cherry pick' what parts of the Bible they follow, however.
*By the by, I use the term "weekend Christian" as a metaphor similar to the "weekend biker".
Fri Aug 13, 06:11:00 AM 2010
twillight said...
@Patmos Pete
Yep, more and more "Babylon"s are falling taking their religious wrath with them, their fornication with nonexistent gods (let them be male of female).
But I doubt I'll see the fall of the Vatikan-Babylon with my eyes. But maybe in some more hundred years it will go finally too. That'll be a big step for humanity.
@XD.O.K.
Exactly like Xaratherus says.
@Anyone interrested:
I'll finish the Quran in 30 days! Woah!
Fri Aug 13, 08:42:00 AM 2010
D.O.K said...
@ Xaratherus - I'll think what you will find, in the case of the second group of Christians you speak of, is that they have an understanding of Grace and what Jesus did on the cross that sets them free of the bounds of the law, as they see it was intended to be through Jesus Christ.
Its not about whether or not we choose to follow God's law, its about whether or not we accept the free gift of Grace - different Christians live under a different standard of Grace according to how they read the Word (not WHAT parts they read, but HOW they read it).
I choose to accept that my saviour died on the cross so i can live freely and lightly, and that is what i do. Does it mean i go out and do anything i like without thought for consequence? - NO, but not becuase i don't have freedom (because freedom is complete!), but because i don't feel the need to do things that don't line up with the character of Christ that i have inherited.
Jesus changed everything, so you can believe that we are cherry pickers, and that we just follow the "laws" that we choose to follow and neglect the rest, but for me, i know that "the law" was fulfilled for me by Christ, and i don't need to strive to fulfill it myself. Grace = UNMERITED favour!
Sun Aug 15, 05:47:00 PM 2010
D.O.K said...
Steve, one part of this post that warmed my christian little heart was your last line.
After speaking about how Jesus hates us more then we will ever know, you ended in "if such a thing is possible, that is"
It does so put a smile on my face to know that even in that argumentative little heart of yours (i was going to say "athiest" - but i don't think that's quite the case) even YOU know that it is quite IMPOSSIBLE for Jesus to hate the people He once died for, or for God to hate His own creation.
I really feel like we are getting somewhere here buddy :)
Sun Aug 15, 08:17:00 PM 2010
Xaratherus said...
@D.O.K: "I'll think what you will find, in the case of the second group of Christians you speak of, is that they have an understanding of Grace and what Jesus did on the cross that sets them free of the bounds of the law, as they see it was intended to be through Jesus Christ. "
What I've found, actually, is that one Christian who has "an understanding of Grace" will tell me one thing, while another Christian who has "an understanding of Grace" will tell me something completely different.
Your statements simply reinforce my point. Christians (and many theists in general) show such arrogance. Without providing any sort of credible evidence, you claim that your way is the right way - yet those of the same supposed faith as you will act in a completely different manner, and claim things that contradict your words, and say that theirs is the right way.
"I choose to accept that my saviour died on the cross so i can live freely and lightly"
I live "freely and lightly" by accepting that my actions have consequence, and not relying on the external forgiveness of a non-existence 'sky daddy'. To each their own, I suppose - save that apparently you don't believe that, since according to the Bible, there's either "accept and worship" or "burn forever".
Mon Aug 16, 08:07:00 AM 2010
Nameless Cynic said...
Hatred. The one defining feature linking Catholics, Protestants and Muslims.
"If a man would follow, today, the teachings of the Old Testament, he would be a criminal. If he would follow strictly the teachings of the New, he would be insane."
[Robert Green Ingersoll]
Wed Aug 25, 12:46:00 PM 2010
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02 August 20101 Nephi 10: Lehi proves Jesus wrong by becoming the greatest prophet ever
Jesus said that John the Baptist was the greatest prophet who had ever lived.
For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he. Luke 7:28
But that was just because he hadn't yet read the Book of Mormon, so he didn't know about Lehi.
Because when it comes to prophecy, Lehi makes Moses, Muhammad, Jesus, and John the Baptist look like the governing body of the Jehovah's Witnesses.
Here are just some of the things that Lehi prophesied in 600 BCE.
The Babylonian captivity.
He spake unto them concerning the Jews -- That after they should be destroyed, even that great city Jerusalem, and many be carried away captive into Babylon. 1 Nephi 10:2-3
That a Messiah ("or, in other words, the Savior of the world") would come 600 years later.
Yea, even six hundred years from the time that my father left Jerusalem, a prophet would the Lord God raise up among the Jews -- even a Messiah, or, in other words, a Savior of the world. 1 Nephi 10:4
That a prophet would come before the Messiah to "prepare the way of the Lord."
And he spake also concerning a prophet who should come before the Messiah, to prepare the way of the Lord. -- 1 Nephi 10:7
Lehi even know the words that the King James Version translators would put in John the Baptist's mouth 2200 years later.
Yea, even he should go forth and cry in the wilderness: Prepare ye the way of the Lord, and make his paths straight; for there standeth one among you whom ye know not; and he is mightier than I, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose. And much spake my father concerning this thing. 1 Nephi 10:8
He knew where John the Baptist would be baptizing. (Bethabara, beyond the Jordan)
And my father said he should baptize in Bethabara, beyond Jordan; and he also said he should baptize with water; even that he should baptize the Messiah with water. And after he had baptized the Messiah with water, he should behold and bear record that he had baptized the Lamb of God, who should take away the sins of the world. 1 Nephi 10:9-10
And that the Messiah (Lehi couldn't quite make out Jesus' name) would be killed by the Jews (who were dwindling in unbelief) and then rise from the dead.
And it came to pass after my father had spoken these words he spake unto my brethren concerning the gospel which should be preached among the Jews, and also concerning the dwindling of the Jews in unbelief. And after they had slain the Messiah, who should come, and after he had been slain he should rise from the dead, and should make himself manifest, by the Holy Ghost, unto the Gentiles. 1 Nephi 10:11
So Jesus was wrong about John the Baptist. Lehi was the greatest prophet in the world.
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Blogging the Book of Mormon
Next episode -- 1 Nephi 11: A spirit shows Nephi all the shit his dad saw
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Posted by Steve Wells at 8/02/2010 09:42:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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8 comments:
RosaRubicondior said...
I must be useful, when you're making up stories about prophets to do it a couple of thousand years after the events your going to have them prophesying.
Mon Aug 02, 10:52:00 AM 2010
Gordon Napier said...
Yes, that is spectacularly unimpressive, I have to agree.
Mon Aug 02, 05:55:00 PM 2010
barriejohn said...
If I didn't know better I'd say that he had read the Bible and then put those words into the mouth of a man who supposedly lived 600 years before, but then no one would be as stupid as to do that, would they?
Mon Aug 02, 11:18:00 PM 2010
barriejohn said...
PS And Old Testament writers wouldn't have taken events that had already happened and claimed that people like Daniel had "prophesied" them many years before, either, would they?
Mon Aug 02, 11:20:00 PM 2010
Xaratherus said...
Given the wealth of the LDS Church, I think they spelled "profit" wrong. The Book of Mormon has nothing to do with prophesying, and everything to do with fleecing the masses; how appropriate that they refer to them as a "flock".
Tue Aug 03, 12:10:00 PM 2010
jasonofcompsci said...
I don't think Lehi has ever been called the greatest prophet ever. A lawyer would say the subject matter for this debate is non-existent. So this entire article is contrived.
Sun Oct 24, 12:39:00 PM 2010
Steve Wells said...
I don't think Lehi has ever been called the greatest prophet ever.
I did. Who was greater up to the time of Lehi's prophecy?
A lawyer would say the subject matter for this debate is non-existent.
Who cares what a lawyer would say? What do you say?
So this entire article is contrived.
The entire Book of Mormon is contrived. But it's great to have a Mormon stop by an comment!
Sun Oct 24, 04:43:00 PM 2010
frank morris said...
Please don't be up set, nothing should be added to Torah, proverbs 30:6 says to not add anything to his word. Please study the scripture and you will not need anything else, for the one G-d he needs nothing else just call on him don't call on no one else.
Sat Mar 01, 05:33:00 PM 2014
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23 September 20101 Nephi 13 revisited: Satan founded the Catholic church, God blessed America (and cursed the Native Americans) , and the BoM fixed the Bible
It’s easy to get distracted by the strange words and phrases in the Book of Mormon and thereby miss the even stranger messages that lurk therein. That’s what happened to me the first time I read chapter 13 of 1 Nephi. (And that's why I'm revising my original post for this chapter. I'm trying to deal with it a little more thoroughly than I did in my first blogging attempt.)
And chapter 13 has some strange phrases. There are eleven “And it came to passes", four “I, Nephis", three “exceedinglys" and one “dwindle in unbelief.” But there’s a lot more to it than that.
I must say, though, that I’d never have understood this chapter without the help of Mormon guides. Luckily I found several sources that reveal the meaning of the angel’s words. (I found this one particularly helpful.)
So I’m going to go through the chapter verse by verse, trying to figure it out as I go along. Let me know if I miss anything.
The angel begins by showing Nephi the "great and abominable church" (the Catholic church) and its founder, the devil.
And the angel said unto me: Behold the … most abominable above all other churches … And it came to pass that I beheld this great and abominable church; and I saw the devil that he was the founder of it. And I also saw gold, and silver, and silks, and scarlets, and fine-twined linen, and all manner of precious clothing; and I saw many harlots. 1 Nephi 13:5-7
Mormons don’t like to talk about this one. The anti-Catholic bigotry is too obvious; it seems more like something an American Protestant might say in the early 19th century that an angel in 600 BCE.
Next, the angel gives Nephi a geography lesson, showing him a Google Earth view of the Old and New Worlds and the “many waters” (Atlantic Ocean) between them. Nephi and his brethren will live on one side of the “many waters” and the “Gentiles” on the other.
I looked and beheld many waters; and they divided the Gentiles from the seed of my brethren 1 Nephi 13:10
The angel told Nephi that “the wrath of God” is upon the seed of his brethren.
The angel said unto me: Behold the wrath of God is upon the seed of thy brethren.1 Nephi 13:11
But Nephi already knew this, since the angel told him in the last chapter that God would darken the skin of some of his brethren (those that became the Native Americans) and make them a dark, loathsome, filthy, idle, and abominable people.
The angel told Nephi that God would select one of the “Gentiles” and send him across the “many waters” to visit his brethren in the “promised land” (America). The Mormons say that the “Gentile” here is Christopher Columbus.
And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land.1 Nephi 13:12
After Columbus other “Gentiles” will cross the "many waters" – which the Mormons say refers to the Pilgrims arriving at Plymouth Rock in 1620.
I beheld the Spirit of God, that it wrought upon other Gentiles; and they went forth out of captivity, upon the many waters. "1 Nephi 13:13
The angel said that many more Gentiles (Europeans) would cross the ocean to smite Nephi’s brethren (the Native Americans).
I beheld many multitudes of the Gentiles upon the land of promise; and I beheld the wrath of God, that it was upon the seed of my brethren; and they were scattered before the Gentiles and were smitten.1 Nephi 13:14
God would inspire the Europeans (who "were white, and exceedingly fair and beautiful" just like Nephi's descendants before the evil, dark-skinned Lamanites killed them all) to slaughter the Native Americans.
So that’s what happened. God inspired the Europeans to slaughter the Native Americans. And “the Gentiles ... did humble themselves before the Lord; and the power of the Lord was with them.”
The Spirit of the Lord, that it was upon the Gentiles, and they did prosper and obtain the land for their inheritance; and I beheld that they were white, and exceedingly fair and beautiful, like unto my people before they were slain. … The Gentiles ... did humble themselves before the Lord; and the power of the Lord was with them.1 Nephi 13:15-16
Later the “mother Gentiles” (the British) would cross the ocean to fight against the Gentiles that God favored in the American Revolutionary War.
Their mother Gentiles were gathered together upon the waters, and upon the land also, to battle against them1 Nephi 13:17
The power of God was, of course, with the American colonists and his wrath was on the British.
The power of God was with them, and also that the wrath of God was upon all those that were gathered together against them to battle.1 Nephi 13:18
And it has happened just like that in every war since then. God helped the USA win all of its wars. (Except maybe Vietnam.)
The Gentiles that had gone out of captivity were delivered by the power of God out of the hands of all other nations. 1 Nephi 13:19
Then the angel showed Nephi a book that "procedeth out of the mouth of a Jew" (the Bible, which was a lot like the brass plates). The good American white people that God liked so much carried this book around with them.
I beheld a book, and it was carried forth among them ... And he said: Behold it proceedeth out of the mouth of a Jew ... like unto the engravings which are upon the plates of brass. 1 Nephi 13:20-23
The angel told Nephi that the "great and abominable church" (the Catholics) ruined the Bibe by deleting the "plan and most precious parts."
A great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away. 1 Nephi 13:26
God favors the Americans above everyone else on earth and has made them the most powerful nation on earth, but he will not allow them to completely destroy Nephi's evil brethren (the Native Americans).
The Gentiles who have gone forth out of captivity, and have been lifted up by the power of God above all other nations, upon the face of the land which is choice above all other lands ... The Lord God hath covenanted with thy father that his seed should have for the land of their inheritance; wherefore ... God will not suffer that the Gentiles will utterly destroy the mixture of thy seed.1 Nephi 13:30
The chapter finally ends with the angel explaining how the Book of Mormon and other Mormon scriptures will restore the “plain and precious things” in the Bible that were removed by Satan’s Catholic church. Only by believing in both (Bible and Mormon scriptures) can a person be saved.
These last records, which thou hast seen among the Gentiles, shall establish the truth of the first, which are of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, and shall make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away from them; and shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto him, or they cannot be saved.1 Nephi 13:40
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Next episode -- 1 Nephi 14: There are only two churches - the church of God (the Mormons) and the church of the devil (everyone else)
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Posted by Steve Wells at 9/23/2010 12:56:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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10 comments:
twillight said...
I feel someone commited anacronysm here...
Fri Sep 24, 11:27:00 AM 2010
John said...
And it came to pass that you seem exceedingly angry today Stevi. I know it can't be the weather out there...it looks perfect. What beholdest thou?
Every time I, Johni, for Johni is my name, think of "Mormon", I can't help but recall The Motel's one hit, "Take the L".
Any thoughts on what Joseph was under the influence of during 'translation'? Each copy of the book should come with it's own supply taped to the inside cover.
Looking forward to Chapter 14. Have a great weekend.
Fri Sep 24, 05:04:00 PM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Sorry, Johni, for sounding angry.
I guess I am getting a bit tired of Nephi's angel. Oh well, only one more chapter and we can get on with the story. (At least there is a story in the BoM. The Quran just repeats the same three bad ideas over and over again.)
In any case, angel or no angel, I'll try to lighten up a bit in chapter 14.
Fri Sep 24, 05:31:00 PM 2010
John said...
Glad to hear it is only the angel, Steve. It too, shall pass. Keep up the good work.
Mon Sep 27, 08:44:00 AM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
Really, the "mother Gentiles"? People believe this crap? Even the Bible was vague enough in its prophecies so that it could be interpreted any which way, but this... :-/
Mon Sep 27, 04:41:00 PM 2010
Xaratherus said...
I'm fairly certain that the Mormon church must have secretly supported L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology - not because they believe it to be true, but so they could shift the burden of "what the f***?" from themselves.
Tue Sep 28, 09:13:00 AM 2010
Scott said...
I don't know where to start. Before my deconversion from Christianity, I spent 7 years in the Messianic movement. I learned alot.
The first thing I noticed is that The Book of Mormon was supposedly written in 600 BCE. Okay, but the word "church" was not in use then, especially by God or his messengers. From the Christian perspective, which I assume includes Mormons, "God" here refers to the god of the old testament. "Church" wasn't one of the ways God referred to his people.
Also, since the "this great and abominable church" wouldn't exist for another 900 years, what was the angel talking about?
Another thing, if Nephi was one of God's people sent to the western hemisphere, Nephi, by definition, was a Jew. "God's people" in the OT sense are always Jews.
As for Christopher Columbus being the Gentile selected to go across many waters; there is a fairly common belief (debatable, but interesting belief) amongst Jews that Christopher Columbus was Jewish and fled Spain at The Edict Of Expulsion in 1492. So God chose a Jew to do a Gentile's job?
Individually any of these points wouldn't mean much, but taken together, one can see that there is no way The Book Of Mormon was written when claimed or is inspired.
Tue Sep 28, 03:45:00 PM 2010
Tyler said...
Great stuff Steve. You nailed it and I should know, I grew up in a very staunch LDS household. You are right on in your analysis.
Wed Sep 29, 05:37:00 PM 2010
nazani said...
Claiming that the Bible is just a poorly edited remnant of some original doctrine is pretty slick. A good way to rope in some people who noticed how inconsistent it is.
Wed Sep 29, 07:06:00 PM 2010
Alex Winder said...
You really shouldn't be doing your own edits of the Book of Mormon. It's not sanctioned by the church. Everything that is written in the Book of Mormon is in their for a reason, whether you or anyone understands it our not. Not condemning you, and your not doing this to discredit the Book of Mormon, but just understand that it really is not sanctioned by the church. Check out the list of Church policies in Handbook 2 to see what I mean.
Mon Jul 18, 08:36:00 PM 2011
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18 September 2010Who wins the Bible's Quiverfull prize?
Have you heard of the Quiverfull movement? It's a whacked-out group of fundamentalist Christians who try to have as many kids as they can, because they believe that children show God's favor on the men who father them.
The movement takes its name from Psalm 127, which says:
Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward. As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth. Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them. Psalm 127:3-5
Which got me to thinking. If children are a blessing from God, and happy is the man that has his quiver full of them, which man in the Bible was the happiest? Who had the fullest quiver, so to speak?
So I started with Adam and worked my way through all the quivers in the Bible. But Adam didn't seem too interested in children. His first son (Cain) killed his second son (Abel), yet Adam didn't bother having any more kids for another 130 years or so, when he finally had Seth. He and Eve were diddling for six score and ten years and all he had to show for it was two arrows in his quiver. He lived another 800 years after having Seth, but all the Bible says about it is this: "And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters." No names, no numbers, no cigar for Adam.
Well then, maybe one of the patriarchs. Take Methuselah, for example. He lived to be 969, so he must have had lots of kids. But he was a slow starter, waiting until he was 187 before fathering his first son (Lamech). And although the Bible says he had other sons and daughters sometime in the next 782 years, it doesn't name names or give numbers. So forget Methuselah. No prize there either.
How about Methuselah's son, Lamaech? Lamech was the first of a long, proud line of polygamists in the Bible. But even with two wives he couldn't fill his quiver. When he was 182 he had his first son (Noah) and then had the usual nameless sons and daughters sometime in the next 595 years. What the fuck did he do with his wives, anyway?
OK, then what about Lamech's son, Noah? Nope. Noah waited until he was 500 to start a family. But he started with a bang, having three sons in a single year. I'm not sure how he managed that, since there is no mention of twins or triplets and the Bible only mentions one (nameless) wife. Fucking miracles, I guess. Anyway, the Bible doesn't say whether Noah had more children after the flood, though God did tell him and his sons to "be fruitful and multiply, and replenish the earth" (after God had drowned everyone on it).
What about King David? No one even tried to keep track of all his wives and concubines, so he must have had lots of children. 1 Chronicles 3:1-9 lists 19 sons and one daughter (which ties him with Jim Bob!). David must have had a hard time coming up with so many names because two sons are named Eliphelet and two are named Elishama. I suppose that's one of the hazards of a full quiver. You just can't keep your arrows straight.
Solomon was one of David's sons and he must have had quite a family since he had 700 wives and 300 concubines. If he kept up with the Duggars he'd have about 20,000 arrows in his quiver. But Solomon was the patron saint of birth control. The Bible only mentions one son (Rehoboam) and two daughters. The guy must have never taken his condom off!
It turns out that Solomon's (only?) son, Rehoboam wins the quiverfull prize, depending on how you keep score, that is. Rehoboam, like his dad, was a big-time polygamist, with 18 wives and 60 concubines. But unlike his dad, he used his wives to fill his quiver. And he had a quiverfull by the time he was done -- 88 total: 28 sons and 60 daughters.
But there were a few others that probably beat Rehoboam. Both Gideon and Ahab had 72 sons. But since the Bible doesn't mention their daughters, I guess Rehoboam can keep his prize. (Both sets of sons had unhappy endings: Gideon's 70 sons were murdered by one of their brothers, and Ahab's 70 sons were beheaded by Jehu at God's command.)
And there are several honorable mentions. Ibzan had 30 sons and 30 daughters. Abdon had 40 sons and 30 nephews. Abijah waxed mighty, and married fourteen wives, and begat 22 sons, and 16 daughters. And Jair had 30 sons that rode on 30 ass colts and had 30 cities.
Oh, and Heman (who wasn't quite as wise as Solomon or as happy as Jim Bob Duggar) had 14 sons and 3 daughters.
Here's a little table to keep the quivers straight.
Happy quivering! Name Sons Daughters Total Verse
Rehoboam 28 60 88 2 Chronicles 11:21
Gideon 72 ? At least 72 Judges 8:30, 9:4-5
Ahab 72 ? At least 72 2 Kings 1:16-17, 10:1-7, 9:24-26
Ibzan 30 30 60 Judges 12:9
Abdon 40 ? At least 40 Judges 12:14
Abijah 22 16 38 2 Chronicles 13:21
Jair 30 ? At least 30 Judge 10:3-4
David 19 1 At least 20 1 Chronicles 3:1-9
Heman 14 3 17 1 Chronicles 25:5
For more information on the Quiverfull movement see Vyckie Garrison's blog, No Longer Quivering.
Posted by Steve Wells at 9/18/2010 09:41:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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7 comments:
teavee said...
The probability of at least 60 daughters in 88 children is 0.00042. It must be a miracle.
Sun Sep 19, 12:13:00 AM 2010
not said...
I can understand the polygamist movement but where's the ulterior motive here?
Sun Sep 19, 01:00:00 AM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
The ulterior motive? It's to have a shitload of kids for no sane reason -- all the while, ignoring the deteriorating state of your wife's vajajay and the obvious increased pleasure you could get if you wore a condom and didn't treat sex like another shift at the baby-making plant...
Sun Sep 19, 02:56:00 PM 2010
Xaratherus said...
To be honest, I would have no problem with the 'Quiverfull' movement - IF the families were self-supporting. I can almost guarantee, however, that they're receiving a slew of government assistance, and that means we're paying for the fulfillment of their beliefs.
Perhaps someone could argue to the government that Mrs. Michelle "It's a clown car, not a vagina!" Duggar must have an enforced hysterectomy, since she's infringing on our beliefs with hers...
Mon Sep 20, 08:04:00 AM 2010
Interested said...
..and people still believe this shit. How?
Mon Sep 20, 01:47:00 PM 2010
skanksta said...
"what about Lamech's son, Noah? Nope. Noah waited until he was 500 to start a family. But he started with a bang, having three sons in a single year."
Lol @ classic Wells !
Believers ? Why ya think god wants to tell us about people that start having kids @ 500 years old - in his one, great, true-for-all-time guide to humanity ?!
Surely this nonsense is harder to rationalise than all gods immoral atrocities in other parts of the blog !?
At least you can tie yourselves up with inventing ways that killing babies 'was a lesson' to us for 'being born sinful' or some other crappy construct - but THIS ?
It's just so plain dumb - how can it be divine ?
Mon Sep 20, 05:26:00 PM 2010
Joker_SATX said...
If nothing else, the only thing the Bible has shown me is how it is consistent at being inconsistent.
Wed Sep 22, 08:42:00 AM 2010
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17 September 2010Solutions for masturbaters
Christine O’Donnell, the 2010 Republican senate nominee from Delaware, was on a crusade during the 90s to stamp out masturbation. Here's what she said about it.
The Bible says that lust in your heart is committing adultery. So you can't masturbate without lust.
And I think she's right about that. You can't masturbate without lust. (Go ahead and give it a try.)
And Jesus said that whoever lusts commits adultery.
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. Matthew 5:27-28
So there you go. Masturbation is adultery.
Now the Bible is clear on what we should do with adulterers (masturbaters).
And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. Leviticus 20:10
So whether you commit adultery with another man's wife or you commit adultery with your own hand, it's all the same to God, Christine O'Donnell, and the Republican Tea Party. You shall surely be put to death.
But there is a way out, if you're man (or woman) enough to do it. Don't commit adultery with your hand; cut if off instead.
If thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. Matthew 5:30
When you consider the options, it makes a lot of sense. Masturbation is adultery, adulterers must be executed, and God tortures dead masturbaters forever in hell.
So the next time you're tempted to commit adultery with your own hand, take Jesus and Christine O'Donnell's advice. Cut it off instead (hand, eye, whatever).
Or do as Stephen Colbert suggests and marry your hand!
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Posted by Steve Wells at 9/17/2010 08:01:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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24 comments:
Randy said...
So if I take one for the team and masturbate while thinking of Ann Coulter (Wait a second, hear me out on this) that makes her an adulteress and she will be stoned to death.
Am I following that right?
Fri Sep 17, 05:55:00 PM 2010
busterggi said...
But since I'm not married & can choose an unmarried woman to lust after (say, Christine O'Donnell) then its not adultery because no marriage is involved.
Fri Sep 17, 09:17:00 PM 2010
not said...
Randy.. that's an interesting spin on it. Why shouldn't the woman also be destroyed for his imaginings.. she was psychicly tarnished.
I remember something about how one's seed shouldn't be wasted (that poor brother who spilt his seed on the floor, rather than in his brothers wife)..
still, what if I were to think of the Virgin Mary while masturbating? Surely God would approve of this. He understands that men are only so strong.
I don't know how I could go a week without having my blue balls drop off. On day eight I'd be shoving my dick into a meat grinder..
Perhaps that's why priests find young boys so attractive. They haven't had sex in 30 years so a sheep's ass would be as appealing as some cute asian girls box of glory.
Fri Sep 17, 11:59:00 PM 2010
The Rev. Brendan Powell Smith said...
Ii cvuyt oifff m,y hjanmds bvut nopw itgs hjarrd to tyupe!!
Sat Sep 18, 03:28:00 AM 2010
skanksta said...
impeccable logic and a truly selfless act Randy !
Sat Sep 18, 05:58:00 AM 2010
twillight said...
Just for the heck of it I wonder what the Talmud says on the topic.
I've finished the Quran, so I can go back to that other silly book :D
Sat Sep 18, 12:30:00 PM 2010
Charles said...
Is it true Christine O’Donnell is a witch?
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5i9rv3pJ0e0ju_X-K2vMUfo7Mah-wD9IAPCK80
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/witches.html
Sun Sep 19, 12:08:00 AM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
Hey, it's the good Rev. Powell Smith! What are you doin' here? :-)
Sun Sep 19, 02:48:00 PM 2010
twillight said...
Oh, so much thx Matthew! With your hint I finally could decipher that comment :-)
Mon Sep 20, 04:28:00 AM 2010
Xaratherus said...
If the world followed her rules, The Fugitive's villain would have been far more difficult to track down:
"I'm looking for the one-armed man! Oh, wait - shit..."
I suppose that Ms. O'Donnell wouldn't agree with H.L. Mencken's statement, then: "Immorality: The morality of those who are having a better time."
Mon Sep 20, 07:53:00 AM 2010
madmax said...
In the context of the socialist onslaught by nearly all of today's politicians, especially the Leftist ones, Christine O'Donnell and the Tea Party in general is a good thing. I don't care if O'Donnell speaks in tongues so long as she votes against cap and trade, tax hikes, votes for a repeal of ObamaCare etc..
Today's secularists are more often than not a bunch of pro-welfare state Leftists. I say this as the most atheistic person who has ever posted here (I'm a strong atheist that thinks that the god concept is nonsense on the epistemological level - not just that there is no proof for it - its inherently arbitrary thus nonsensical). Nevertheless, if I were in Delaware, I would vote for O'Donnell without hesitation, no matter that she has some insane religious view.
Compared to the Left, O'Donnell's craziness is tame. The Left want's to make me into a slave of a socialist state. Career Republican politicians have no problem in helping them. O'Donnell and the Tea Party is a small move in defiance of this. This is perhaps the best development in American politics since the Founding.
Mon Sep 20, 04:42:00 PM 2010
Steve Wells said...
My but you're angry, madmax.
What is it about the pro-welfare, socialist state that you hate so much? Is the public library, public parks, public schools, highways, bridges, space program, science funding, or what? What is it that pisses you off so much?
Mon Sep 20, 08:57:00 PM 2010
TaoCat said...
Steve, isn't it obvious what madmax is angry about? Public education. They "want's" to turn him into a socialist. The shame.
Wed Sep 22, 12:46:00 AM 2010
mariolandblog said...
WTF?
So I cut off my genitals, because they offended me and became a eunuch for the kingdom of heavens sake, like Jesus said in Matthew 19:12, but now I read in Deuteronomy 23:1, that I now cannot enter the congregation of the LORD anymore. Fuck that! (Well I would if I could...)
Wed Sep 22, 04:23:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Good point, marioloandblog! I forgot about Deuteronomy 23:1. I guess it'd be better to cut off your hand. But pray about it. Ask Jesus if you should cut off your hand as he says in Matthew 5:30 or your penis as in Matthew 19:12. He'll make it clear which is right for you. He always does, you know.
Wed Sep 22, 06:14:00 AM 2010
TaoCat said...
@not- You're thinking of Onan's sin, which caused no end of confusion concerning masturbation. Onan was just practising birth control, but was in trouble as there are substantial penalties for early withdrawal.
Wed Sep 22, 02:49:00 PM 2010
skanksta said...
to The Rev BPS - I've bought all your books - they make great Christmas presents - and I want to know when you're bringing out your entire oeuvre - the complete Lego Bible ?!
Thu Sep 23, 09:56:00 AM 2010
skanksta said...
madmax ?!
There are plenty of nationalist, right-wing regimes in Europe - we used to have one in Britain that was akin to a mild, fascist coup - but none of them would dream of cutting free health care.
Having free health care makes you civilised - not socialist.
Thu Sep 23, 10:00:00 AM 2010
Aquaria said...
Today's secularists are more often than not a bunch of pro-welfare state Leftists.
And I'm damned proud of it. It would be different if selfish privileged pricks like you didn't think you scored a triple because you were born on third, and therefore all the goodies of this world are yours. Somebody has to make this world livable despite you.
I say this as the most atheistic person who has ever posted here (I'm a strong atheist that thinks that the god concept is nonsense on the epistemological level - not just that there is no proof for it - its inherently arbitrary thus nonsensical).
It's not a contest, bub. Either you are one, or you're not. That's the problem with you conservatives: you make things competitive when it's just plain stupid to do that.
Nevertheless, if I were in Delaware, I would vote for O'Donnell without hesitation, no matter that she has some insane religious view.
See paragraph one: Selfish, privileged prick.
Compared to the Left, O'Donnell's craziness is tame.
The Left of your fevered fantasies lives in reality. Your insane bag of bullshit does not. That you would support someone with such a tenuous hold on reality makes you as insane as her.
The Left want's to make me into a slave of a socialist state.
You've never met a socialist, have you? By the way, conservatives want to make us slaves to the rich and corporations. They're succeeding, too.
Career Republican politicians have no problem in helping them.
You're confusing socialists with corporations and the wealthy class.
O'Donnell and the Tea Party is a small move in defiance of this.
If by "this", you mean reality, fair play, liberty for all (not just white Anglo-Saxon Protestant and heterosexual males) and basic human decency.
This is perhaps the best development in American politics since the Founding.
Only if you're a selfish, privileged prick. And one who is apparently content to let the insane run the asylum.
That makes you an insane selfish, privileged prick. But then, that's why you're a conservative.
Thu Sep 30, 11:44:00 AM 2010
Laurie said...
Poor madmax (although a fitting nom de plume, one would think). Yes, Maxy, we in the enlightened world call such things as socialised medicine, progressive taxation, and so-on "Civilisation". Just keep pouring your seed into Christine O'Donnell centrefolds, there's a good boy, and leave public affairs to the adults.
(By the way - nice blog, Steve!)
Fri Oct 01, 07:58:00 PM 2010
Hammy said...
There is only one right way to go about this. Masturbate using Christine O’Donnell's hand... Then cut that off.
But of course, we only have 2 of those, and about 6 billion masturbators. But remember... Jesus fed thousands using five loaves of bread and two fishes. Maybe there's hope.
Fri Oct 08, 03:09:00 AM 2010
Rudy said...
We can all feel justified in hurling stones at the witch, Christine O'Donnell-
Leviticus 20:27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.
Sun Nov 14, 07:38:00 PM 2010
Marcus Merjil said...
I am against masturbation. Our desire is supposed to be for our wives (sexually and lovingly) and for God (spiritually and hopefully). One should reframe from anything that causes him to sin at any cost by the grace of God. We Christians do struggle, everyday, with many things. But before being saved there was no struggle, no battle. But now when we are tempted or get foolish urges to do wrongfully we must stop and pray for God to get us through it IN JESUS'S NAME. God bless ask of you who are walking with and seeking the Lord.
Tue Feb 25, 07:38:00 PM 2014
Marcus Merjil said...
God bless all of you*...
Tue Feb 25, 07:40:00 PM 2014
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08 September 2010Don't burn the Quran (or the Bible). Read it.
Nearly half of the world's 6.8 billion people believe (or pretend to believe) in either the Quran or the Bible. Yet few believers have read the book that they claim to believe in. And there's a good reason for that: it is nearly impossible to believe in either book once you have read them.
Go ahead and try it for yourself. If you believe in the Quran, read it (in a language that you understand). Do likewise if you believe in the Bible. Read the book that you claim to believe in and see if you still believe it after you've read it.
Better yet, read them both. Whether you believe in either, both, or neither, the Quran and the Bible are too important to ignore. Read them and then decide for yourself what to think about them.
We need to read these books. And it's hard to read them after they're burned.
Posted by Steve Wells at 9/08/2010 11:21:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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32 comments:
Klasco said...
Somebody should send that book burning guy a email with a ebook of the Quran for every book he burns. Also maybe the guy for extra insult should dress up like Mohammad and burn the books. If they attack him they are attacking Mohammad muhahaha.
Wed Sep 08, 11:44:00 AM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
That last bit was just... ugh. No one knows what Muhammed looked like, so it'd be a waste of time, wouldn't it? :-P
Wed Sep 08, 02:23:00 PM 2010
Klasco said...
@MatthewB doesn't stop some Muslims from getting pissed off remember the draw Muhammad day thing. Anyway just put an ID badge that says Muhammad prophet of Islam and pedo bear. I wonder if we will hear of bible book burnings as a counter seems it's just US flag burning? That said they probably have to buy the flag to burn it? i wonder if they are made in the US :P
Wed Sep 08, 06:13:00 PM 2010
not said...
I wonder where they got their Quran's from? Did they go out to buy them just so that they could burn them?
There's plenty of burning and destruction of other cultures in the OT.
Wed Sep 08, 07:31:00 PM 2010
John said...
I read somewhere that the Qurans were sent from people all around the world. I am imagining other Pastors asking their congregations to go out and purchase a Quran and send it to Florida. Surprising they only received a couple hundred, actually, considering the intolerance and bigotry I have witnessed here in my local church.
Thu Sep 09, 04:58:00 AM 2010
Xaratherus said...
When I first heard about this, it scared me, because it reminded me of the mindset in Bradbury's F451 future. "Monday burn Millay, Wednesday Whitman, Friday Faulkner, burn 'em to ashes, then burn the ashes," to quote Bradbury's Captain Beatty.
It made me angry, and frightened, that such idiocy can exist (and, in fact, can run rampant)in a 'civilized' society.
While I consider both the Bible and the Quran works of fiction, I nonetheless consider them important reminders of a time long gone - a sort of fictional history, a record of the mores of a pre-scientific society.
My first thought was to hold a Bible burning. "An eye for an eye" and all that.
But after that knee-jerk reaction, I realized I was guilty of a crime outlined in that same book (Fahrenheit 451) - and that in my panic I had forgotten my favorite quote from that novel:
"The sun burned every day. It burned Time. The world rushed in a circle and turned on its axis and time was busy burning the years and the people anyway, without any help from him. So if he burnt things with the firemen, and the sun burnt Time, that meant that everything burned!"
So instead, on September 11, I'm going to sit down and read from the Quran. No, I'm not converting to Islam - I recognize that a book of unproven veracity doesn't constitute evidence of any god. But, "Somewhere the saving and putting away had to begin again and someone had to do the saving and keeping."
Maybe that starts with me.
Thu Sep 09, 06:33:00 AM 2010
twillight said...
I reached sura 42 today in the Quran. That means if I read ca. 100 lines per day, I'll end with it within 19 days.
Well, the best thing in this reading that there are no more 200 lined suras. It is boring.
Just as a sidenote: I've found some way described in the Quran to test wether Allah is real or not. He failed every time.
My reason reading the Quran is bloody stupid though. I only do it because the jews hate me for not reading the Quran, but the Talmud. So I do it to catch out wind from their boats.
I wish I could move further with my translation of the Talmud, but oh well, why not.
Fri Sep 10, 11:31:00 AM 2010
twillight said...
Just got into me:
Steve, as you're just at the beggining with Project Reading Quran, could you collect all the titles of Allah?
I mean there are that kind of adjectives associated to Mr. A. like "mercyful", "proud", "rich" etc.
What'd be the full nomination of Mr. A. in the likeness of every ruler? (Like "King John the First, the king of Asia, the Prince of Malaizia, the Lionheart and so on)
Sun Sep 12, 09:42:00 AM 2010
Ayeohx said...
Exodus 23:24
Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images.
Numbers 7:5
But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire.
I agree with you and support your cause but there are those that will take verses such as these and use them to justify their actions. How do we fight intolerance when our holy texts seems to dictate otherwise?
And yes, I realize that these verses are taken out of context, but these are the tools that many religious leaders use to sway the masses. Ignorance, especially when it is fueled by faith, is difficult to oppose.
Mon Sep 13, 12:49:00 AM 2010
Ryo said...
Forgive my Bad English, I'm still a kid..
Steve, can I translate some of your post and a bit of the SAB in Italian on my blog?
Have I your permission?
Moreover, I'd like to turn some of your post in answers for Italian Yahoo Answers, can I?
Waiting for your reply, my best wishes.
Bye
Mon Sep 13, 09:16:00 AM 2010
twillight said...
@Ryo
I suggest you to send an e-mail to Steve's adress with the exact detail on what you have in mind.
Mon Sep 13, 12:24:00 PM 2010
Brucker said...
My thought on the whole thing was that if they believe the Quran to be so evil, the best thing they could do is have a "Read the Quran" day to show how evil it supposedly is. It's just so much easier to be a lazy douchebag than to be industrious like you are with your site, I guess.
Mon Sep 13, 03:48:00 PM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Ryo,
That sounds OK to me, but send me an email (as twillight suggests) and so we can discuss your plans.
Mon Sep 13, 09:45:00 PM 2010
kat said...
Ibn Arabi----"Every (state of) being in accord (with God) that doesn't bring with it the corresponding appropriate behaviour and attitude can't be relied upon"
It is upto us human beings how we make use of knowledge---be it science or religion....we can use it for good if we so choose.
What should be the purpose/goal of religion?----it should make us better human beings today than we were yesterday....if it does not---then we have failed it......because the choice to use it for good was ours to make.
Wed Sep 15, 09:12:00 PM 2010
skanksta said...
Back to work slacker Wells - your fans are getting withdrawal symptoms !
:(
Fri Sep 17, 04:27:00 AM 2010
Matt said...
I'd be interested to know how you know that few believers have read their holy book. In my experience, that's not the case. Please forgive me not accepting what you say as, ahem, gospel.
Fri Sep 17, 04:14:00 PM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Matt,
It is difficult to find statistical studies on the number of believers that have actually read the book that their beliefs are based on. I've seen estimates as low as 10%, but not with any credible references. But Christianity Today claims that less than half of Americans (>70% of which are Christians) could identify Genesis as the Bible's first book.
Does anyone know of a statistical study that estimates the percentage of Christians (or Muslims) that have read their holy book?
Fri Sep 17, 06:18:00 PM 2010
kat said...
All Muslims read the Quran from cover to cover---every word---however, we read it in Arabic---so do not necessarily understand what we are reading...translations of the Quran are available in most languages and these translations often come with tafsir----(context/commentary) because in order to understand the verses, one has to understand the historical context as well as how the Prophet(pbuh) understood/implemented the Quran (Hadith and Sunna)
We read the Quran in Arabic because that is the language in which it was revealed.
Yusuf Ali tafsir and translation is popular, Mohamed Asad tafsir and translation is on the net for free.
Fri Sep 17, 06:45:00 PM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Kat,
"All Muslims read the Quran from cover to cover---every word---however, we read it in Arabic---so do not necessarily understand what we are reading."
Then you aren't reading it. And you are wasting your time.
I'm sure that it sounds better in a language you don't understand. So does the Bible. (That's why the Catholic church kept it in Latin for so long.)
The verse 4:56 in the Quran would sound better in Arabic, or French, or Swahili -- anything that you don't understand. But you should first read it in a language that you understand and then decide if you believe it. Here it is:
"Lo! Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment."
Muslims that read that verse in a language they understand are unlikely to believe that it was inspired by a God who can honestly be called good.
Fri Sep 17, 07:50:00 PM 2010
kat said...
@Steve
"...then you aren't reading it..."---very well then, we "recite it"....as to wasting time---that is a matter of opinion.
(I did mention the Quran is translated in most world languages....along with tafsir to put it in context)
I would argue that someone who fails to gain wisdom from a book of wisdom/guidance has also failed to "read" it....and therefore, could be wasting their time......
4:56---God is compassionate and merciful. During the time we have on earth, God gives us many chances to do good. If we refuse because of pride/arrogance and continue to do "mischief" on earth causing hurt and sorrow---we will be held accountable for our choices, intentions, and actions.
(and the verse following this one (4:57) explains that those who do good will also be held accountable for their choices, intentions and actions)
Sat Sep 18, 08:39:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Kat,
You say, with respect to 4:56, that "God is compassionate and merciful. During the time we have on earth, God gives us many chances to do good."
And here's what verse 4:56 says: "Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment."
The verse says nothing about "doing good," as you claim. It says that Allah will burn our skins off our bodies if we disbelieve his revelations. And then the "compassionate and merciful" God will provide us with "fresh skins" so we can "taste the torment" forever.
Yeah, I bet that sounds a lot better in Arabic!
(Why do you pretend that your imaginary friend is compassionate and merciful, Kat? Is it compassionate and merciful to endlessly burn people's skin off for refusing to believe in obvious falsehood and unspeakable cruelties?)
Sat Sep 18, 09:15:00 AM 2010
kat said...
Obvious falsehood and cruelty----I might say that those who knowingly believe in falsehood and cruelty are likely to end up in Hell?.....
Hell---The Quran talks a lot about Hell/Paradise---The concept is ofcourse tied up with Judgement-Day. However, in the Quran, God is not only Compassionate and Merciful---but also Just. Justice is what Judgement-Day is about.
As the Quran will explain---those who do good are not the same as those who do evil. All of us human beings will be held accountable for our choices----choices about intentions and actions. In Islam, religion, (or "Deen") is not about "belief for the sake of believing"---but to have "right belief" that will help guide us to goodness. The purpose of belief is to make us better human beings----that is, those who pursue "God's will" and Gods will=right belief that promotes right intentions that lead to right actions for the benefit of all of God's creations.
Because we are using an English translation---many words end up with Christocentric baggage. The usage of certain words such as "disbeliever", have come to be associated with certain connotations. The Arabic word for "disbeliever" is generally "Kaffir"---its meaning is "one who covers up"----it implies a deliberate action with knowledge---(you can't cover up something you don't know). Both Hebrew and Arabic have a "root word" system and Kaffir comes from the root word meaning "ungrateful" ---therefore, the word kaffir has connotations of "one who covers up (truth/guidance/goodness) because of ungratefulness. This means that the act is not only deliberate, but stems from pride and arrogance.
Another Arabic word is Ayah---generally translated as "revelations"---however, the word means "signs" and refers not only to the Quran, but to all other "Revelations/Signs". Thus, there are "signs" in nature all around us. As the Quran explains---everything in nature "submits" to God's will---they follow God's laws (natural laws). In both Judaism and Islam---Human beings have been created inherently good---and when we reject goodness---we go against the "nature" that we were created with. (the Quran explains---we go against our own souls)
(The Arabic words are defined in the Quran---so even in translation, one can grasp the meaning....)
It is easy to break the verses of the Quran (or any book) for whatever "agenda" we have---good or bad. The Quran says it must be read as a whole and warns about breaking up its verses "for profit"(for our own biases)Therefore, rather than basing an opinion on a single verse---it is best to look at the preceding and following verses and to put the whole in context of the Quran.---this gives a more complete concept.
Sun Sep 19, 06:12:00 PM 2010
Steve Wells said...
The meaning of the verse (4:56) is perfectly clear. Allah will repeatedly burn the skin off of unbelievers after they die. There is no context in which such an idea is anything other than cruel and barbaric.
You say that Allah only burns the skin off of kaffirs after they die, where "kaffirs" are those that know Allah's BS is true but try to cover it up. If so, then there aren't any karrirs. Those of us who disbelieve the Quran disbelieve because it isn't true. Or because it's cruel, absurd, disgusting, etc. But even if there is some stupid kaffir out there somewhere that denies what he knows is true (and no one knows it's true), it would still be cruel, absurd, disgusting for Allah to repeatedly burn her skin off after she died.
Allah is worse than Yahweh. Thank goodness nether exists.
Sun Sep 19, 07:13:00 PM 2010
kat said...
"There is no context in which such an idea is anything other than cruel and barbaric."---So in your opinion, Justice will be served by allowing those who do evil to benefit from their crimes not only in this world but also in Paradise?
Why do I consider a God who dispenses Justice as Compassionate and Merciful? ---because he gives us opportunities to come to guidance/goodness, to repent, make ammends....this makes him merciful. He is compassionate, because during our time on earth, he gives us sustenance, both physical (food/shelter...etc) and spiritual (knowledge, Guidance...etc). We have been created with intelligence and free-will. Therefore---we will be held accountable for our intentions and actions. Being Human comes with blessings as well as responsibilities......while we can enjoy our blessings....we should not abandon our responsibilities.
By the way---passages about hell/paradise are metaphor.(or as the Quran calls it---"similitude")The Quran juxtaposes the horrors of Hell with the soothing comfort of Paradise to elicit an emotional response---so that we would abhor hell and prefer paradise.......and the hell in the Quran is truly, truly horrible---but much of it is in the middle Surahs.
Kaffir---the Quran does not promote blind belief---this is important so pay attention----if a person feels that a particular belief is cruel/unjust then they should NOT believe it. Whatever religious label we call ourselves (or no religious label)---God has created us inherently good and we have the capacity within us to goodness.---we have the intelligence to understand it and the free-will to use it---we are therefore responsible for our choice to do good or to reject good.This responsiblity also means that those who reject goodness will be held accountable for their choices and suffer the consequences....(as will those who choose goodness enjoy the benefits)
Faith=the use of the intellectual faculties to reason and arrive at a conviction.
Sun Sep 19, 11:57:00 PM 2010
kat said...
Steve, we may be approaching the idea of hell/paradise/judgement from 2 different perspectives which may be causing some miscommunication and frustration?--I hope you will continue to have patience with me, I appreciate the dialogue......
Mon Sep 20, 12:06:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
I have a simple question for you, kat. Does Allah burn the skin off kaffirs' bodies, replace the skin, burn it off again, and repeat endlessly as stated in verse 4:56 of the Quran?
Mon Sep 20, 06:22:00 AM 2010
kat said...
"Does Allah burn the skin off kaffirs' bodies,...?"---sort of(or both yes and no)
---This is an interesting question. There is a lot of nuance and detail to the Quranic concept of Hell/Paradise/Judgement. As I mentioned, it would be better to look at this as a metaphor rather than take it literally. The reason for this is that when the Quran says human beings will be Judged---it is referring to the self/soul which is called Nafs in Arabic. (Judaism has a somewhat similar concept of soul with "Nefesh"). This nafs is not the human body. It is what some call the conscioussness. The point the Quran is trying to make is that hell is a horrible experience as if the skin is repeatedly burned...
this image is used because we human beings on earth can understand the horror of being burned. (not much point to give an image we cannot relate to)As we move deeper into the concept of hell---worse images than this are going to come up. Likewise, the concept of Paradise also has images that the desert Arabs could relate to. These 2 images are juxtaposed to create an emotional response in the reader/listener. the verse folowing 4:56 goes like this....
4:57 But those who believe and do deeds of righteousness, We shall admit to Gardens with rivers flowing beneath---their eternal home: therein shall they have companions. We shall admit them to shades, cool and ever deepening.
Hot and cold, horror and pleasure are contrasted to encourage us on the path of goodness. That is the purpose of religion after all---to help us be better human beings.
By the way---the translated word "day" as in Judgement-day is best understood as a fixed period of time as God wills and the translated word "eternal" is best understood as a long period of time as God wills.
It is simpler to think in terms of black and white/yes or no/good or bad. But this comes at the expense of sacrificing nuance.....and we may end up committing intellectual-suicide.
Mon Sep 20, 06:02:00 PM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Thanks, kat, for that ever so nuanced response.
Allah will torture us after we die if we don't believe the cruel and idiotic things in the Quran. Maybe he'll burn our skin off over and over again like he threatens in 4:56. Or maybe he'll force us to drink boiling water (6:70). Or give us a shower of molten lead to cool us off a bit (18:29). Or he'll force us wear garments of fire, pour boiling fluid on our heads, melt our skin, and torment us with iron hooks, and when we try to escape he'll drive us back with the taunt: Taste the doom of burning (22:19-22).
But we need to keep all this nuanced, don't we kat? If we honestly said what it obviously is (vicious and cruel), we'd be committing intellectual suicide. And then Allah would have get out his (possibly metaphorical) burning garments, boiling fluids, and iron hooks to torture us forever after we die.
Mon Sep 20, 07:31:00 PM 2010
kat said...
Thanks, kat, for that ever so nuanced response.
you're welcome steve
Tue Sep 21, 06:25:00 AM 2010
bec-87rb said...
Thanks, kat, for that ever so nuanced response.
kat, I don't think Steve is hearing you. *sigh*
Tue Sep 28, 09:57:00 AM 2010
kat said...
thankyou bec-87rb
Steve has been very gracious in allowing me to express my opinions on his site. Not everyone has the tolerance for an opinion different from theirs.
Steve is also not alone in finding "Hell" to be a particularly difficult concept to reconcile with. I suspect many of us feel the same way.....?
Wed Sep 29, 01:23:00 AM 2010
sirataalmustaqeema said...
The whole intention of this event was to make money and draw attention to a small group that no one knew about.
The Straight Path: Don't Burn Books, Don't Burn The Quran
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SA4yMzzoPw
Fri Oct 08, 02:21:00 PM 2010
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27 October 2010Tim Profitt, Tea Party Joshua
You've probably heard about Tim Profitt, the Rand Paul coordinator that stomped on the neck and head of a woman protester. If not, here's a video.
In the interview, Mr. Profitt says it was "no big deal." In fact, he thinks the victim, Lauren Valle of MoveOn.org, owes him an apology.
I wonder if he got the idea for his neck stomping from Bible. There's a similar story that involves one of God's special heroes: Joshua.
Here's what Joshua did to his opponents.
And it came to pass, when they brought out those kings unto Joshua, that Joshua called for all the men of Israel, and said unto the captains of the men of war which went with him, Come near, put your feet upon the necks of these kings. And they came near, and put their feet upon the necks of them. Joshua 10:24
But Joshua's captains were reluctant to do it, so Joshua had to encourage them a bit.
And Joshua said unto them, Fear not, nor be dismayed, be strong and of good courage: for thus shall the LORD do to all your enemies against whom ye fight. Joshua 10:25
God himself would put his foot on the necks of all his enemies. So go and do likewise.
And Joshua said unto them, Fear not, nor be dismayed, be strong and of good courage: for thus shall the LORD do to all your enemies against whom ye fight. Joshua 10:25
So Joshua (and God?) put his foot on the kings' necks. Then he killed them and hung their bodies on trees until evening.
And afterward Joshua smote them, and slew them, and hanged them on five trees: and they were hanging upon the trees until the evening. Joshua 10:26
So if Mr. Profitt was inspired by the story in Joshua 10, I'm glad he stopped reading at verse 25.
Posted by Steve Wells at 10/27/2010 03:02:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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4 comments:
Randomdude123 said...
If Joshua were alive today people would not stand by his actions. But Christians stand by Josh's actions. Just because God is in the mix. WTF?
Wed Oct 27, 03:30:00 PM 2010
Markus Arelius said...
In a way Joshua had it easier. Joshua didn't live and operate within a financially litigious society like that of 21st century North America.
Mr. Profitt should find a knowledgeable attorney, because that's assault. Hope it was worth it doofus.
Thu Oct 28, 11:31:00 AM 2010
Infidel said...
If you need an illustration, start here:
http://www.thebricktestament.com/joshua/executed_kings_hung_on_display/jos10_24a.html
Thu Oct 28, 05:27:00 PM 2010
nazani said...
I merely wish to point out that Mr. Curbstomper said he had seen the woman with the RepubliCorp sign at other events- so he knew damn well that she wasn't going to try to touch Rand Paul.
Mon Dec 13, 10:33:00 AM 2010
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27 October 2010Current's Wager
If you wear garlic around your neck and vampires don't exist, you have nothing to lose.
But if vampires do exist and you don't have garlic around your neck, you have everything to lose. (About 12 pints of blood, anyway.)
So wearing garlic around your neck for your whole entire life is clearly the safest bet.
Posted by Steve Wells at 10/27/2010 08:30:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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nazani said...
There are so many cute, inexpensive charms available in craft stores these days- why not make a charm bracelet with a crosse, leprechaun, unicorn, crescent & star, pentacle, etc. Something to offend everyone.
Mon Dec 13, 10:37:00 AM 2010
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24 October 20101 Nephi 16: A group marriage, magic brass ball, and broken steel bow
After Nephi finished preaching to his evil older brothers, they all got down to more important matters.
Like sex.
Remember how Lehi's family left Jerusalem to "go into the wilderness" and somehow ended up more than 400 kilometers away on the shores of the Red Sea; then they remembered they forgot something (Lehi's brass plates), so Nephi and his brothers had to go back to Jerusalem to get them; and then when they got back from that trip (after murdering Laban with God's help and stealing the plates) they remembered that they forgot to bring any women (except for their mom); So they went back to get some?
Well they got some alright (Ishmael's daughters), but they never got around to doing anything with them because Lehi, Nephi, God, and the camp-following angels wouldn't STFU.
So when it finally came to pass that he, Nephi, made an end of his speaking, Nephi, his brothers, and Zoram (Laban's servant) all got married to Ishmael's nameless daughters.
And it came to pass that I, Nephi, took one of the daughters of Ishmael to wife; and also, my brethren took of the daughters of Ishmael to wife; and also Zoram took the eldest daughter of Ishmael to wife. 1 Nephi 16: 7
It was a group wedding with Lehi serving as the Reverend Moon, saying stuff like, "Do you [Nephi, Laman, Lemuel, Sam, Zoram] take what's her name here to be your lawfully wedded wife?"
After getting that all taken care of, God showed Lehi something really interesting.
And it came to pass that as my father arose in the morning, and went forth to the tent door, to his great astonishment he beheld upon the ground a round ball of curious workmanship; and it was of fine brass. And within the ball were two spindles; and the one pointed the way whither we should go into the wilderness. 1 Nephi 16: 10
A magic brass ball of curious workmanship that was designed and made by God himself! God's magic ball had two spindles on it, one pointing the way to go and the other pointing in some other direction.
Here's what it looked like.
So now that they had their magic ball, they packed up camp, gathered seeds of every kind, crossed the River Laman, and took off in whatever direction God's brass ball pointed. After traveling for four days in a SSE direction, they set up camp at a place they called Shazer.
And it came to pass that we did ... take seed of every kind ... across the river Laman. And it came to pass that we traveled for the space of four days, nearly a south-southeast direction, and we did pitch our tents again; and we did call the name of the place Shazer. 1 Nephi 16: 11-13
They followed God's magic ball around for four more days in "the more fertile parts of the wilderness," killing stuff for food with their bows and arrows and slings.
And it came to pass that we did travel for the space of many days, slaying food by the way, with our bows and our arrows and our stones and our slings. And we did follow the directions of the ball, which led us in the more fertile parts of the wilderness. 1 Nephi 16: 15-16
And then it came to pass that Nephi broke his steel bow.
And it came to pass that as I, Nephi, went forth to slay food, behold, I did break my bow, which was made of fine steel. 1 Nephi 16: 18
Of course steel didn't exist at the time, wouldn't work well for a bow anyway, and would be hard to break. But, oh well. This is the Book of Mormon.
Apparently none of the other bows worked either, because after Nephi broke his no one else could kill a thing.
And it came to pass that we did return without food to our families, and being much fatigued, because of their journeying, they did suffer much for the want of food. 1 Nephi 16: 19
So everyone "began to murmur exceedingly." Heck even Nephi's dad Lehi "began to murmur against the Lord."
And it came to pass that Laman and Lemuel and the sons of Ishmael did begin to murmur exceedingly, because of their sufferings and afflictions in the wilderness; and also my father began to murmur against the Lord his God; yea, and they were all exceedingly sorrowful, even that they did murmur against the Lord. 1 Nephi 16: 20
So Nephi made another bow and arrow out of wood and a straight stick.
And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did make out of wood a bow, and out of a straight stick, an arrow; wherefore, I did arm myself with a bow and an arrow, with a sling and with stones. And I said unto my father: Whither shall I go to obtain food? 1 Nephi 16: 23a
But Nephi didn't know where to hunt with his new bow. So he asked his dad (when he had stopped murmuring).
And I said unto my father: Whither shall I go to obtain food? 1 Nephi 16: 23b
Lehi inquired of the Lord (Hey God. Where should we go to kill some animals?) Then voice of the Lord came to Lehi telling him to look on the magic ball where he'd find a text message from God.
And it came to pass that the voice of the Lord came unto my father; and he was truly chastened because of his murmuring against the Lord, insomuch that he was brought down into the depths of sorrow. And it came to pass that the voice of the Lord said unto him: Look upon the ball, and behold the things which are written. 1 Nephi 16: 25-26
And it came to pass that when they saw the text message from God they did fear and tremble exceedingly.
And it came to pass that when my father beheld the things which were written upon the ball, he did fear and tremble exceedingly 1 Nephi 16: 27
Now the magic brass ball didn't work like a magic 8 ball. Magic 8 balls work all of the time for everyone, whereas the brass ball only works if you believe it will work. And, of course, Nephi believed anything and everything, the crazier the better.
And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the pointers which were in the ball, that they did work according to the faith and diligence and heed which we did give unto them. 1 Nephi 16: 28
So the pointers pointed in just the right directions if you believed that they pointed in just the right directions.
But the coolest thing of all was the text messages. They "changed from time to time" according to the faith of the person reading the message.
And there was also written upon them a new writing, which was plain to be read, which did give us understanding concerning the ways of the Lord; and it was written and changed from time to time, according to the faith and diligence which we gave unto it. And thus we see that by small means the Lord can bring about great things. 1 Nephi 16: 29
The message on the brass ball told Nephi to go to the top of the mountain.
And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did go forth up into the top of the mountain, according to the directions which were given upon the ball. 1 Nephi 16: 30
So Nephi went to the mountain top and killed wild beasts.
And it came to pass that I did slay wild beasts, insomuch that I did obtain food for our families. 1 Nephi 16: 31
(Stay with me here. The chapter's almost done, I promise.)
After eating the wild beasts, they traveled many days.
And it came to pass that we did again take our journey, traveling nearly the same course as in the beginning; and after we had traveled for the space of many days we did pitch our tents again, that we might tarry for the space of a time. 1 Nephi 16: 33
Then Ishmael dies, his daughters mourn exceedingly, and Nephi's brothers and Ishmael's sons decide to kill Nephi and Lehi.
And it came to pass that Ishmael died, and was buried in the place which was called Nahom. And it came to pass that the daughters of Ishmael did mourn exceedingly ... And Laman said unto Lemuel and also unto the sons of Ishmael: Behold, let us slay our father, and also our brother Nephi. 1 Nephi 16: 34-37
But then "the voice of the Lord came and did speak many words unto them" and gave them some food. So they decided not to kill Nephi and Lehi.
And it came to pass that ... the voice of the Lord came and did speak many words unto them ... did bless us again with food, that we did not perish. 1 Nephi 16: 37
And with that the chapter finally comes to an end.
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Posted by Steve Wells at 10/24/2010 04:23:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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3 comments:
twillight said...
One thing the BoM clearly differs from the Bible, is the chance for potentialy artifacts. I mean: golden book, brass plates, brass globes, iron bows - all could be shown int a BoM-museum. But nooooo, everything was "took back by god" (or his angels), lost during time, was thrown away, maybe even stolne by the catholic church... Darn, BoM-people are very unlucky :D
Mon Oct 25, 01:40:00 AM 2010
busterggi said...
I can hardly wait to find out what happened to the magic ball - surely Yahweh wouldn't let his personal work be destroyed or get lost.
Mon Oct 25, 05:17:00 AM 2010
Luftritter said...
This one made me giggle.
God's magic orb looks a lot like the Holy Hand Grenade.
Sat Nov 06, 05:28:00 PM 2010
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22 October 2010Surah 2:190-217 -- Allah's Rules for Holy Warfare
In this section, Allah lays down the rules of war for the religion of peace.
The first rule is that you must "fight in the way of Allah," but only against those that fight against you, and, even then, you can't start the war yourself. So preemptive war is out for Muslims.
Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors. 2:190
I'm confused by the next verse, though. "Slay them wherever you find them." Who is the "them" here? Disbelievers? Those that "persecute" Muslims? Soldiers and civilians? In warfare and in acts of terrorism?
And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. ... Such is the reward of disbelievers. 2:191
But whomever it is that Allah wants you to kill, you're supposed to stop killing them if they stop doing whatever it was (fighting with you, persecuting Islam, being disbelievers?) that you were busy killing them for. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful, Confusing.
But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. 2:192
Or maybe not. Now Allah says that you must keep fighting until there is no more persecution and everyone on earth is a Muslim. Then you can stop killing people.
And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. 2:193a
Well, not quite, I guess. If there are any wrong-doers around after you've killed off all the disbelievers, persecutors and aggressors, then you'll have to kill them too.
But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers. 2:193b
Whatever nasty stuff people do to you in war, you must do to them. Rape for rape, genocide for genocide, torture for torture. Allah is with those who fight evil with evil.
The forbidden month for the forbidden month, and forbidden things in retaliation. And one who attacketh you, attack him in like manner as he attacked you. Observe your duty to Allah, and know that Allah is with those who ward off (evil). 2:194
Always remember that "warfare is ordained for you." Allah wants you to fight in wars. You probably don't want to, but Allah thinks it's good for you. And Allah knows best.
Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not. 2:216
It's you and your religion against them and theirs. They won't stop fighting until they make you a "renegade from your religion" and if they succeed in that so you die in disbelief, Allah will burn you forever in the Fire.
... persecution is worse than killing. And they will not cease from fighting against you till they have made you renegades from your religion, if they can. And whoso becometh a renegade and dieth in his disbelief: such are they whose works have fallen both in the world and the Hereafter. Such are rightful owners of the Fire: they will abide therein. 2:217
So get out there an fight in the way of Allah
(or he'll burn you forever in the Fire after you die).
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2:218-242: Allah's guide to alcohol, gambling, menstruation, sex, and divorce
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Posted by Steve Wells at 10/22/2010 01:16:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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15 comments:
Randomdude123 said...
I have always had problems with Holy Warfare in the Qur'an. It's states in Qur'an 2:24 that if you disbelieve you can never believe. So if they converted when at first they disbelieved but they became Muslim Allah would forgive even though he "sealed there fate". That makes no sense at all.
Fri Oct 22, 02:09:00 PM 2010
The Wise Fool said...
Interesting that the Qur'an teaches to attack in like kind. So if you "attack" by drawing a picture of Mohammad, does that mean that they counterattack by drawing Jesus? If an atheist draws Mohammad, would they counter by drawing nothing? Ponderous man, real ponderous.
Fri Oct 22, 07:13:00 PM 2010
Randomdude123 said...
@The Wise Fool I don't know. If you draw a picture of Mohammad you must draw "an acceptable drawing of Mohammad". As far as I care it's a mystery. Should be left up for interpretation.
Fri Oct 22, 10:10:00 PM 2010
Parkar Atkinson said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Sat Oct 23, 12:52:00 AM 2010
kat said...
"Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you;...."
Steve are you getting bored?
The Quran claims God is most merciful, most compassionate---why would he then allow wars---which cause sufferring---to happen?---why not wave his magic wand or whatever and make it all dissapear so no human being has to fight another human being....?---that might have been an interesting question to explore?
I will answer the other question soon...but out of time now
Sat Oct 23, 01:25:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Steve are you getting bored?
Kat, are you getting rude?
Sat Oct 23, 07:18:00 AM 2010
Lynn said...
Steve,
If you keep at it, and we keep reading, we'll know more about these three books than most of the actual followers.
I'm wondering is Muslims are like a lot of Christians, in that they don't spend much time reading their holy book, and really don't know what all is in there. They just have a vague idea that it's all good.
Sun Oct 24, 04:28:00 AM 2010
kat said...
My apologies Steve, an unfortunate word choice may have created the impression of sarcasm though it wasn't meant that way----I was only wondering if you were losing interest?
Hello Randomdude123 ---Surah 2 verse 24(and 23) is a challenge to those who had doubts about revelation during the time of Prophet Muhammed(pbuh)that if they considered the revelations to be man-made---then any man from amongst them should be able to come up with a sura of like quality (in Arabic). (The shortest surah is only about 3 or 4 verses long---1400 years later, the challenge still stands unbroken.) Maybe you are referring to verses 6 and 7 of surah 2? If so, the Quran says
6. "As to those who reject faith...." and 7. "God has set a seal on their hearts...." This indicates that human beings must reject faith of their own free will BEFORE God takes any action---(and this action is reversable whenever a person repents because God is merciful and compassionate.)
The Arabic word "Kaffir" means = one who covers up the truth and comes from the root word "ungrateful". It implies a deliberate rejection of truth/goodness (rather than one due to ignorance or due to a mistaken idea/concept of God....etc) Since the Pagan Arabs were blindly following traditional concept of "God"/"Allah", the Quran is against blind belief and insists that faith must be acquired through the use of our intellectual faculties through which we can arrive at conviction.
Sun Oct 24, 08:15:00 AM 2010
kat said...
Who is the "them" here? (191)---"them" would be "those who fight you" from the previous verse 190.
Surah 2 was revealed after the "Hijra" or migration from Mecca to Medina---the Muslims were escaping persecution by the Meccans and the people of Medina(Yathrib) invited the Prophet(pbuh) and his followers to come. (Another group of Muslims had already escaped to the Christian kingdom of Abysinia (Ethiopia) which offered refuge to them). However, the Meccans were not happy that the Muslims left and brought the fight to them in Medina/Yathrib (The battle of Badr and the battle of Uhud).
"Religion"---the Arabic word is Deen and it has a very wide meaning among which is justice and rule of law.
The general principle here is that oppression is wrong and human beings have a responsibility to see that oppression is lifted and justice is restored. Oppression and injustice harms God's creation and it is God's will that human beings have right beliefs that promote right intentions that lead to right actions for the benefit of all of his creation.
---So why do human beings have to make this effort?---why can't God simply eliminate oppression and injustice from the face of the earth?. ---the same reason God does not impose a "religion" on human beings---Our free-will----with free-will comes the responsibility to make choices and take actions.
If we actively participate in life---we could make a difference.
Sun Oct 24, 08:51:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Here are the verses in question.
Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors. And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. 2:190-191
When Allah commands his followers to "slay them wherever you find them" you say the "them" is "those who fight you." And you might be right about that. That is a possible interpretation. But then Allah adds "for such is the reward of disbelievers" -- which means another possible interpretation is that Allah commands his followers to kill unbelievers wherever they find them. Office buildings, airplanes, wherever.
It's too bad Allah didn't have you write the Quran for him. You'd have done a much better job.
What did Allah mean when he said "such is the reward of disbelievers?"
Mon Oct 25, 07:32:00 AM 2010
kat said...
Steve--maybe I was too quick to judge---I didn't realize this was a legitimate question, I thought it was thrown in as a token.....and thankyou for your kind words though I cannot take credit.
Reading the Quran----Muslims and Jews do not read our books of wisdom raw. The Jews have the Talmud (Gemarrah, Mishnah, Rabbinical works etc) Muslims have the Tafsir (Hadith, Sunna, scholarly works etc). These put the wisdom teachings in context. Islam has a rich tradition of scholarly exegesis.
Who are the disbelievers in this verse?---Definition (Characteristics) of disbelievers has already been given ealier in surah 2--they are those who knowingly reject goodness to create "mischief" in the world. Therefore, those who attack in order to create oppression and injustice---even though they know this is wrong---would fall into this category (disbeliever).
To put this in perspective----much (not all) of Surah 2 was revealed in Medina after the Hijra---that means the revelations had already been occurring for more than 10 years in Mecca. Values of Compassion, Charity, Justice, Equality had already been given---so the Meccans cannot say they were unaware/ignorant of guidance to goodness. According to Islamic thought---human beings are created inherently good---this means, even without the guidance of the Quran---human beings have an inherent capacity to recognize and understand goodness---that is why the guidance of the Quran is often called "a reminder" in the Quran itself.
Does this verse apply today?---Yes. Human beings are responsible for promoting justice, liberty, rule of law....etc in their societies. If evil grows within their societies---good men must stand up to it. Does this mean flying planes into buildings (or villages) and killing innocent people is acceptable?--No---that is why the Quran says keep God in mind when fighting in self-defense and do not transgress limits---elsewhere the Quran also specifies not to kill innocents, or damage crops.....etc
(Today, the U.S. is using Drones (remote control planes) to kill innocent villagers on the Pakistan/Afghan border--and these killings are called "collateral damage")
IMO the idea of "reward" is also interesting---human beings have free-will as well as intelligence and this makes us accountable for our good/bad choices. However, these choices can only be excercised here on earth (in life)---not when we are dead. From birth to death---we have opportunities to do good, or if we have done bad, to repent and turn to goodness. The other side of the coin---in this concept---is that we can only be judged according to our time on earth---whether that be short or long. Therefore, the demands of justice require that our accountability be limited (in time) to our use of free-will.
Mon Oct 25, 08:41:00 PM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Once again, kat, I don’t know what you are saying, though what you say sounds very nice.
In 2:191, Allah says to “slay them wherever you find them … Such is the reward of unbelievers.” When I asked you what Allah meant when he said, “such is the reward of disbelievers" you answered by defining “unbeliever” as “those who knowingly reject goodness to create ‘mischief’ in the world” – which sounds like complete nonsense to me.
If there ever was an “unbeliever” when it comes to Islam and the Quran, I am one. There are about 5.5 billion others who also disbelieve in the Quran. If the word “unbeliever” has any meaning at all, then the “such is the punishment for unbelievers” applies to us all.
I am also an obvious “mischief” maker, at least when it comes to the Quran. I despise the Quran (as I do the Bible and the Book of Mormon) because of its cruelty, absurdity, and harmful effects. Is that enough mischief for you to call me an unbeliever, kat?
If so, then what is the reward that Allah speaks of in 2:190? (“Such is the reward of unbelievers.”) Doesn’t the “such” refer to the “Kill them wherever you find them” command?
Let’s say that I’m right, kat, (just for the sake of the argument, of course). What if Allah commanded you to kill unbelievers wherever you find them. Would you do as Allah says and try to kill me and the other 5.5 billion unbelievers?
I’m just asking.
Tue Oct 26, 10:57:00 AM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
...and, as you can see, he didn't respond. Just goes to show.
Sun Oct 31, 12:46:00 PM 2010
guineap1g said...
not at all surprised "free will" appears in Qur'anic apologetics(interesting aside - spell-check aptly suggested quarantine)
the new thing is "it's not an instruction book", where book is some holy tome
but when you read either christian or muslim text, it seems quite clear they are just that
21. O ye people! Adore your Guardian-Lord, who created you and those who came before you, that ye may have the chance to learn righteousness;
this verse says a deity created everyone and is reiterated in other verses
6. As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe.
this verse clearly says unbelievers will not have the "chance to learn righteousness" because they cannot, will not believe
why is that?
7. Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).
it seems this deity is securing a steady supply of kindling for his fire of men and stone by setting up the rules to avoid his wrath AND creating people who could never follow them
24. But if ye cannot- and of a surety ye cannot- then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith.
not much of a challenge then, when the game is rigged to fail
Wed Nov 03, 05:24:00 AM 2010
Shad Shahid said...
Dear Steve,
Regarding your question on 2:191 (Thus should such disbelievers be rewarded), Muslim theologians have always defined disbelievers as those to whom the reality of Islam was made manifest (i.e.- when God made it clear to the whole of Arabia that Muhammad was His Prophet and Messenger).
The question of you becoming such a disbeliever can never arise because you did not witness the manifest apostleship of Muhammad.
Would God command us to kill today's unbelievers (as distinct from disbelievers) -this is a fallacious question because God is Perfectly Just and Supremely Merciful.
The Qur'an is the word of God (Allah in Arabic) as revealed in the social context of 7th century Arabia when Muhammad was preaching his Divine mission. The confusion arises when Muslims or non-Muslims take sentences out of context.
Viewed thus, most of the accusations on the Qur'an about punishing disbelievers wither away.
It has always been the way of God to punish those who reject His messengers. This is what happened in Sodom and Gomorrah to the people of Lot, and this is what happened at the time of Noah. In the time of Muhammad, this punishment was meted out by God Almighty through the sword of His Messenger.
Thu Nov 18, 11:12:00 AM 2010
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15 October 20101 Nephi 15: Nephi explains his dad's magic tree (again)
Remember back in chapter 8 when Lehi had a dream about a tree? Yeah, well, it's back again. And this time it's causing all sorts of trouble for Nephi's brothers.
You see, they just couldn't figure it all out. What was it, anyway? And who cares? A crazy old man dreams about a tree and they're supposed to believe it has some cosmic significance, some deep spiritual meaning?
Well, yes they are. This is the Book of Mormon after all.
And it came to pass that after I, Nephi, had been carried away in the spirit, and seen all these things, I returned to the tent of my father.
And it came to pass that I beheld my brethren, and they were disputing one with another concerning the things my father had spoken unto them.
...
And it came to pass that after I had received strength I spake unto my brethren, desiring to know of them the cause of their disputations.
And they said: Behold, we cannot understand the words which our father hath spoken concerning the natural branches of the olive-tree, and also concerning the Gentiles. 1 Nephi 15:1-7
Of course the main problem with Nephi's brothers was that they didn't inquire of the Lord enough. It's nearly impossible to believe complete and obvious bullshit without God's help.
And I [Nephi] said unto them: Have ye inquired of the Lord?
And they said unto me: We have not. 1 Nephi 15:8-9
Another reason they didn't believe the stuff about the tree is that they were such evil bastards. They didn't follow the commandments and their hearts were way too hard.
Behold, I [Nephi] said unto them: How is it that ye do not keep the commandments of the Lord? How is it that ye will perish, because of the hardness of your hearts? Do ye not remember the things which the Lord hath said? -- If ye will not harden your hearts, and ask me in faith, believing that ye shall receive, with diligence in keeping my commandments, surely these things shall be made known unto you. 1 Nephi 15:10-11
So Nephi explained it all to them again. The grafting of the branches thing is all about Joseph Smith who will (2423 years later) find and translate the golden plates and thereby produce the Book of Mormon that will bring "the fulness of the gospel" to the Gentiles. (And if that isn't perfectly obvious to you, you are an evil bastard that hasn't inquired of the Lord.)
And now, the thing which our father meaneth concerning the grafting in of the natural branches through the fulness of the Gentiles, is, that in the latter days, when our seed shall have dwindled in unbelief, yea, for the space of many years, and many generations after the Messiah shall be manifested in body unto the children of men, then shall the fulness of the gospel of the Messiah come unto the Gentiles, and from the Gentiles unto the remnant of our seed. 1 Nephi 15:13
Nephi says that someday the Native Americans (who centuries later will become a dark, loathsome, filthy, idle, and abominable people for dwindling in unbelief) will all become Mormons and be saved. (I suppose God will then make them fair , white, and delightsome like good Mormons are today.)
And at that day shall the remnant of our seed know that they are of the house of Israel, and that they are the covenant people of the Lord; and then shall they know and come to the knowledge of their forefathers, and also to the knowledge of the gospel of their Redeemer, which was ministered unto their fathers by him; wherefore, they shall come to the knowledge of their Redeemer and the very points of his doctrine, that they may know how to come unto him and be saved. 1 Nephi 15:14
Nephi goes on to explain the tree, iron rod, and river to his hard-hearted evil brothers.
And it came to pass that I did speak many words unto my brethren, that they were pacified and did humble themselves before the Lord. 1 Nephi 15:20
But I'm going to skip all that. Nephi and I told you about it once before, and once was once too many.
But there is something new in Nephi's spiel. It's all about filthiness.
It goes like this: If your works are filthy, then you are filthy. And if you're filthy, you can't go to heaven because you'd make God's kingdom filthy.
Wherefore, if they should die in their wickedness they must be cast off also ... to be judged of their works; and if their works have been filthiness they must needs be filthy; and if they be filthy it must needs be that they cannot dwell in the kingdom of God; if so, the kingdom of God must be filthy also. 1 Nephi 15:33
But, you see, the kingdom of God isn't filthy, so God had to make a filthy place to put filthy people like you in after you die.
But behold, I say unto you, the kingdom of God is not filthy, and there cannot any unclean thing enter into the kingdom of God; wherefore there must needs be a place of filthiness prepared for that which is filthy. 1 Nephi 15:34
And that filthy place is hell. "And the devil is the preparator of it." (Joseph Smith liked to make up words just like Sarah Palin!)
And there is a place prepared, yea, even that awful hell of which I have spoken, and the devil is the preparator of it 1 Nephi 15:35
And thus it is and so on and so forth. Amen.
And thus I spake unto my brethren. Amen. 1 Nephi 15:36
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Posted by Steve Wells at 10/15/2010 11:24:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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5 comments:
busterggi said...
The pseudohistory given in the BOM is proof that some people will believe anything.
Mon Oct 18, 05:09:00 AM 2010
Gary said...
Not about this post, but have you seen the film 'God on Trial'?
Part of it at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dx7irFN2gdI
Seems this would make a good post and generate some discussion!
Love your work.
Mon Oct 18, 11:40:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Gary,
Yeah, I thought that was a great film and I wrote a couple posts on it back when it first came out in 2008.
Tue Oct 19, 08:01:00 AM 2010
twillight said...
Ok, this what I want to say here is way bexond the capabilities of this blog, but maybe someone appropriate sees my message:
The current Government of Hungary (that's the country I make my posts from) seriously considers including "christian values as base of moral and etchics and so on" into our Foundation.
As I don't want someone thinking my moral, ethics and such things includes accepting pedophilia, burning withes (who we all know doesn't even exist) and homosexuals, advocating selfmutilation and such things, I ask for help from anybody on any forum I could come up with.
I hope Steve allows this comment to appear, but more importantly I hope this violation of sanity and human rights won't happen. And this is the only way I can come up with to prevent it: sending messages all over the world (including our ministries of course).
Thu Oct 21, 02:53:00 PM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
Wow... looks like Smith's mind was in the gutter, when writing this.
Sat Oct 30, 06:49:00 PM 2010
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14 October 2010Dabbling with Christianity: Christine O'Donnell is both Catholic and Protestant
We all know that Christine O'Donnell "dabbled into witchcraft" back in the 90s. But her religious views have matured since then; now she is a Catholic and an Evangelical Protestant.
Someone should ask her how that is possible.
Posted by Steve Wells at 10/14/2010 09:34:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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5 comments:
John said...
I see she also refused to answer Mr. Blitzer last night about whether she believed in evolution or not. She said, "It doesn't matter what I believe. I want to represent what the local schools want to teach." The switch from Witch to Catholicism to Protestantarianismaschnizzle should be classified as evolution within a generation. I'm sold.
Thu Oct 14, 10:03:00 AM 2010
Randomdude123 said...
How could she be Catholic and Protestant? Anglicanism is both Catholic and Protestant so maybe she is Anglican.
Thu Oct 14, 12:08:00 PM 2010
Randy said...
Sure, that's one possibility, RandomDude. But as she's a politician, it's much more likely that she's a liar.
Which, if she's right about any of her varying flavors of God, means she's doomed to burn in hell.
Thu Oct 14, 04:18:00 PM 2010
Frédéric said...
Let me see: she's catholic, so she follows the catholic pope, but she's also protestant, so she believes he's the antechrist.
That would be consistent with her earlier witchcraft: she just went all the way and now worships satan.
Thu Oct 14, 05:03:00 PM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
It's taking Pascal's Wager to the logical extreme; apparently, she wants to hedge all her bets. :-P
Sat Oct 30, 06:46:00 PM 2010
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12 October 2010Surah 2:159-189 -- Hiding the Quran, cursing unbelievers, eating pork, retaliating, the death tax, and Ramadan sex
The section begins in the usual way. Allah repeats his threats and curses for non-believers, as he does throughout the Quran. Believe whatever Allah revealed to Muhammad or Allah torture you forever after you die.
Lo! Those who hide the proofs and the guidance which We revealed, after We had made it clear to mankind in the Scripture: such are accursed of Allah and accursed of those who have the power to curse. 2:159
This verse is a bit different than most, though. Allah will curse those who "hide the proofs and the guidance" that he revealed. But how can you hide things that don't exist? There are no proofs anywhere in the Quran and whatever guidance is there is almost always bad.
But it gives me an idea, though. Maybe instead of a "Burn the Quran Day" we should have a "Hide the Quran Day." Put it where the sun doesn't shine.
In any case, since I do my best to expose the Quran for the vicious bullshit that it is, I suppose verse 159 would apply to me. But verses 161-2 apply to everyone who disbelieves in the Quran, for whatever reason. They are cursed by Allah, the angels, and men combined.
So every good Muslim man must join Allah and the angels in cursing nonbelievers.
Lo! Those who disbelieve, and die while they are disbelievers; on them is the curse of Allah and of angels and of men combined. They ever dwell therein. The doom will not be lightened for them, neither will they be reprieved. 2:161-2
Whoever hides the Quran will get fire in his belly. (So that's where I got the fire in my belly!) And after they die they will get that painful doom that Allah is always promising in the Quran. "How constant are they in their strife to reach the Fire!"
Lo! those who hide aught of the Scripture which Allah hath revealed and purchase a small gain therewith, they eat into their bellies nothing else than fire. ... Theirs will be a painful doom. Those are they who purchase error at the price of guidance, and torment at the price of pardon. How constant are they in their strife to reach the Fire! 2:174-5
Yeah, that's right Allah. We unbelievers are just begging to have our skins burned off repeatedly after we die. It's about all we ever think about.
After Allah curses and threatens the unbelievers, he calls them names, like deaf, dumb, blind, and senseless.
The likeness of those who disbelieve (in relation to the messenger) is as the likeness of one who calleth unto that which heareth naught except a shout and cry. Deaf, dumb, blind, therefore they have no sense.2:171
Then Allah gets tired of cursing, threatening, and name-calling, and he gets down to some more practical matters. Don't eat carrion, blood, pork, or animals that have been sacrificed to other gods.
He hath forbidden you only carrion, and blood, and swineflesh, and that which hath been immolated to (the name of) any other than Allah. 2:173
And then he says something nice for a change.
Giveth wealth ... to kinsfolk and to orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask, and to set slaves free ... and payeth the poor-due. 2:177
"Set the slaves free." Does this mean that slavery is forbidden in the Quran? Don't ask me, I'm just one of those deaf, dumb, blind, senseless, and cursed unbelievers.
But I guess not. The next verse answers the question.
O ye who believe! Retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the murdered; the freeman for the freeman, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female. ... He who transgresseth after this will have a painful doom. 2:178
If someone murders your slave, then you get to kill one of his. If it was a male that was killed, you kill one of the killer's male slaves. If a female, you kill a female. Murder for murder. Slave for slave. It all works out swell with Allah's wondrous rules. (Oh, and if you don't follow them, you'll have the usual painful doom.)
And there is life for you in Allah's magic retaliation. It helps to ward off evil. (It works like a rabbit's foot or something.)
And there is life for you in retaliation, O men of understanding, that ye may ward off (evil). 2:179
The Republicans should like the next verse, though. It forbids what Tea Baggers they like to call the "death tax." So when rich Muslims die, they must leave all of their wealth to their families.
It is prescribed for you, when death approacheth one of you, if he leave wealth, that he bequeath unto parents and near relatives in kindness. (This is) a duty for all those who ward off (evil). 2:180
The section ends with rules for fasting and Ramadan, which are too boring to go through. But all Muslims must follow them "to ward off evil."
The good news is that it's OK to have sex with your wives during Ramadan (at least after sunset). In fact you must "hold intercourse with them." All of them. It is your sacred Muslim duty.
It is made lawful for you to go in unto your wives on the night of the fast. They are raiment for you and ye are raiment for them. ... So hold intercourse with them. 2:87
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2: 190-217 -- Allah's rules for holy warfare
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Posted by Steve Wells at 10/12/2010 11:18:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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twillight said...
@Randomdude123
I think if you kill a slave, but you don't have one at the moment, then you'll be sentenced to buy one, what will have to be killed to make the proper punishment.
More simple.
Thu Oct 14, 11:06:00 AM 2010
Randomdude123 said...
@twillight but it won't be a punishment because it's like punishment by hiring than firing
Thu Oct 14, 06:08:00 PM 2010
twillight said...
@Randomdude123
It will be punishment because you loose property.
At "H&F" you'd get back your money.
I'm aware of the almost-lack of sentimental value, but Mr. A.'s word is what we have to rely here too, eh? :sarcasm:
Fri Oct 15, 12:59:00 AM 2010
Robert said...
Don't be silly. Rich Muslim women are not uncommon. In Saudi Arabia women keep their money in women's banks. Men are not allowed to enter these banks. Men must give a substantial sum to their future wives. This money cannot be touched by the husbands.
Fri Oct 15, 11:14:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Thanks for the correction, Robert. I've removed the (silly) parenthetical statement (there are no rich Muslim women).
Fri Oct 15, 11:52:00 AM 2010
kat said...
002.178
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! the law of equality is prescribed to you in cases of murder: the free for the free, the slave for the slave, the woman for the woman. But if any remission is made by the brother of the slain, then grant any reasonable demand, and compensate him with handsome gratitude, this is a concession and a Mercy from your Lord. After this whoever exceeds the limits shall be in grave penalty.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the murdered; the freeman for the freeman, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female. And for him who is forgiven somewhat by his (injured) brother, prosecution according to usage and payment unto him in kindness. This is an alleviation and a mercy from your Lord. He who transgresseth after this will have a painful doom.
I don't have my tafsir with me and my memory might be faulty---During pre-islamic times, tribal wars were carried on for generations and the more people killed in one tribe, they tried to kill many more of the other tribe....and so forth. What was happening was one injustice was compensated/retaliated by another injustice. A person/tribe/nation who has had injustice done ---has the right to demand justice---but this has to be commensurate with the crime.---that is, if a person is punished in excess of the crime---it only furthers injustice and this is wrong.
As the Quran says, forgiveness and compensation are better methods of obtaining justice. A tribe can give a member of equal value to the other tribe as compensation---(the recieving tribe thus has a new contributing member)however, monetary (or other type) compensation is much preferred.
That is why the verse following this says that this method of justice saves lives.
Fri Oct 15, 10:46:00 PM 2010
kat said...
Women---The Quran gave many rights to women such as the right to education, to property, to conduct bussiness, to inherit, ....etc-----many of these have been eroded over time by patriarchy. That is why there are calls by Muslim "feminists" to go back to the principles of the Quran---but this often puzzles western observers/feminists.
Fri Oct 15, 10:58:00 PM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
Muhammad had multiple wives; why were women not given a chance for multiple husbands in his day, if Muhammad was so ahead-of-the-curve?
Sat Oct 30, 06:16:00 PM 2010
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Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
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Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
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10 October 2010Forget Jesus. The stars died so you could live.
That's just one of the many great quotes from this Lawrence Krauss lecture.
Posted by Steve Wells at 10/10/2010 12:05:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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MiaKBaker said...
Great video. Thanks for posting!
Mon Oct 11, 10:41:00 PM 2010
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09 October 20101 Nephi 14: There are only two churches - the church of God (the Mormons) and the church of the devil (everyone else)
Nephi's angel finally stops talking in this chapter. But he saved his best stuff for last.
Once again it's important to keep in mind the historical context of the angel's revelations to Nephi. This was 600 BCE, before most of the books in the Hebrew scriptures were written, about 700 years before the Christian New Testament existed, nearly 1000 years before the canon of the Christian Bible was established, and 2423 years before Joseph Smith found his golden plates. Yet the angel refers to, and often quotes from, all of these sources.
The angel starts off by giving all of you "gentiles" out there in "the promised land" a bit of hope. ("Gentiles" are non-Mormons and "the promised land" is the United States in Mormon-speak).
And it shall come to pass, that if the Gentiles shall hearken unto the Lamb of God ... And harden not their hearts against the Lamb of God, they shall be numbered among the seed of thy father; yea, ... and they shall be a blessed people upon the promised land forever. 1 Nephi 14:1-2
All you have to do is become a Mormon and then everything will be cool. Otherwise -- well, you probably know what the otherwise is, but if not, just wait a few verses and the angel will tell you.
Remember the "great and abominable church founded by the devil" (the Catholic church) that the angel went on and on about in the last chapter? Well, it's back. And this time it's dug a pit, with the devil's help, to lead folks down to hell.
And that great pit, which hath been digged for them by that great and abominable church, which was founded by the devil and his children, that he might lead away the souls of men down to hell. 1 Nephi 14:3
So if you're a gentile, you've only got two choices: become a Mormon or fall into the Catholic pit that leads to hell.
And it came to pass that the angel spake unto me, Nephi, saying: Thou hast beheld that if the Gentiles repent it shall be well with them ... [but] whoso repenteth not must perish. Therefore, wo be unto the Gentiles if it so be that they harden their hearts against the Lamb of God. 1 Nephi 14:5-6
Next, the angel tells Nephi that the lamb of God (Jesus) says that the time will come (2423 years later) when a 17 year old treasure digger from New York (Joseph Smith) will find some golden plates and translate them by staring into his hat at some magic rocks thereby producing the "great and marvelous work" that we now know as the Book of Mormon and that you and I now have the great pleasure of reading.
This book is, according to the angel, the best and most important book by far that you, me, or anyone else will ever read. And we'll be tortured forever after we die unless we believe it.
For the time cometh, saith the Lamb of God, that I will work a great and a marvelous work among the children of men; a work which shall be everlasting, either on the one hand or on the other -- either to the convincing of them unto peace and life eternal, or unto the deliverance of them to the hardness of their hearts and the blindness of their minds unto their being brought down into captivity, and also into destruction, both temporally and spiritually, according to the captivity of the devil, of which I have spoken. 1 Nephi 14:7
Then the angel shows Nephi the Catholic church again.
And it came to pass that he said unto me: Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil. 1 Nephi 14:9
And then the angel says something completely different. He tells Nephi that there aren't many churches (there weren't any churches at the time, of course), there are only two churches: God's and Satan's. Lutherans, Presbyterians, Jehovah's Witnesses, Unitarians, whatever -- they're all the same. They all belong to "that great church, which is the mother of abominations ... the whore of all the earth that sat upon many waters."
All non-Mormons are God-damned Catholics in the eyes of God.
And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth. And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people. 1 Nephi 14:10-11
Then the angel showed Nephi the Mormon church. There weren't many Mormons, though, because of that fucking whore that sat on many waters.
And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw. 1 Nephi 14:12
God hated pretty much everyone on earth (they were all just a bunch of Catholics to him) until the Mormons showed up.
And it came to pass that I beheld that the wrath of God was poured out upon that great and abominable church, insomuch that there were wars and rumors of wars among all the nations and kindreds of the earth. And as there began to be wars and rumors of wars among all the nations which belonged to the mother of abominations, the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold, the wrath of God is upon the mother of harlots; and behold, thou seest all these things -- And when the day cometh that the wrath of God is poured out upon the mother of harlots, which is the great and abominable church of all the earth, whose founder is the devil, then, at that day, the work of the Father shall commence. 1 Nephi 14:15-17
Then the angel told Nephi to look over there. You see that guy in the white robe? That's the apostle John who will write the Book of Revelation about 700 years from now. (Which doesn't make a lot of sense since the apostle John didn't write Revelation, but oh well.)
And it came to pass that the angel spake unto me, saying: Look! And I looked and beheld a man, and he was dressed in a white robe. And the angel said unto me: Behold one of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. ... he shall also write concerning the end of the world. ... And I, Nephi, heard and bear record, that the name of the apostle of the Lamb was John, according to the word of the angel. 1 Nephi 14:18-22, 27
The white-robed guy will write things that are just and true just like everything else that is written in "the book that proceeded out of the mouth of the Jew." ("The book that prceeded out of the mouth of the Jew" is BoM-speak for the Bible.)
Wherefore, the things which he shall write are just and true; and behold they are written in the book which thou beheld proceeding out of the mouth of the Jew; and at the time they proceeded out of the mouth of the Jew, or, at the time the book proceeded out of the mouth of the Jew, the things which were written were plain and pure, and most precious and easy to the understanding of all men. 1 Nephi 14:23
And that's all Nephi is going to say about that. The angel won't let him say any more. So don't ask. But the angel showed Nephi lots of other cool stuff that he can't tell you about right now.
And behold, I, Nephi, am forbidden that I should write the remainder of the things which I saw and heard; wherefore the things which I have written sufficeth me; and I have written but a small part of the things which I saw. 1 Nephi 14:28
Finally the angel stopped talking and Nephi quit writing down the things that he saw while he got all carried away. But it's all true. And thus it is. Amen. 10-4 good buddy. Over and out.
And now I make an end of speaking concerning the things which I saw while I was carried away in the spirit; and if all the things which I saw are not written, the things which I have written are true. And thus it is. Amen. 1 Nephi 14:30
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Blogging the Book of Mormon
Next episode -- 1 Nephi 15: Nephi explains his dad's magic tree (again)
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Posted by Steve Wells at 10/09/2010 12:53:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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6 comments:
Lynn said...
Steve,
I love your style-you're hilarious. And this is the first study I've done of the Book of Mormon, so it's pretty interesting. I've got a lot to learn.
Thanks for all you do! Also the Skeptics Annotated Bible is the coolest resource.
Sat Oct 09, 05:33:00 PM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Thanks, Lynn. It's fun to read the Book of Mormon, but you have take your time and savor each bat-shit crazy verse. When I did the SABoM I just flew through it and missed some of the best stuff. So blogging it helps me to re-do the notes and capture more of the bizarre bits. I just wish blogging the Quran was as much fun!
Sat Oct 09, 06:19:00 PM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
Steve, did I post a comment on here? Can't remember if I did or didn't... :-S
Sun Oct 10, 10:58:00 AM 2010
zickeyzouse said...
I also gotta say thanks for the years of personal research on both the BOM and the Bible. I think I've been using the annotated scriptures since 2002. I still use it today when I debate religion in chatrooms. I'm not talking just about the comments on verse, but also the topics.
Seriously, keep up the good work.
Sun Oct 10, 11:32:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Matthew,
I'm not sure what might have happened to your comment. Lately I've noticed a few times where I thought I'd published it, but it didn't show up. I don't know whether it was me or blogger that messed up. If it was me, though, I apologize.
And thanks, zickeyzouse. I'm glad the SAB and blog have been useful. If I had a few more lifetimes, I'd waste one or two doing a more thorough job.
Sun Oct 10, 11:57:00 AM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
No problem, Steve; shit happens. ;-)
Sun Oct 10, 02:45:00 PM 2010
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06 October 2010The Moral Landscape: Get off your ass scientists
OK. That’s not really the title to the book. It was Jon Stewart’s suggested title during his interview of Sam Harris on the Daily Show. But as Sam said, it would have made a good subtitle.
It’s time for us all (scientists and non-scientists) to get off our asses and get to work.
For too long the semi-official position among scientists and other otherwise reasonable people has been this with regard to morality: Science has nothing to say about it. But it does. In fact, it is the only way we have of getting our morals right.
Obi-Wan Kenobi isn’t our only hope. Science is.
The Daily Show With Jon Stewart Mon - Thurs 11p / 10c
Sam Harris
www.thedailyshow.com
Daily Show Full Episodes Political Humor Rally to Restore Sanity
It was an interesting interview, but the part I liked best was this:
The God of Abraham gets slavery wrong. Slavery is probably the easiest moral question we’ve ever had to face. And if this book [the Bible] was written by an omniscient deity, the true source of moral wisdom in the universe, it should at least get the question of whether it’s right to own people and treat them like farm equipment right. It doesn’t get that question right. The God of Abraham clearly expects us to keep slaves.
One of the reasons I haven't been posting much lately is that I've been harassing Doug Wilson at his blog. (The other is that I'm reading Sam Harris' new book.) I've especially been pestering him on the issue of slavery, which he used to call "a wonderful issue" about which "the Bible speaks most directly, again and again."
Here’s what he said in Southern Slavery As It Was.
The reason why many Christians will be tempted to dismiss the arguments presented in this booklet is that we will say (out loud) that a godly man could have been a slave owner. But this "inflammatory" position is the very point upon which the Bible speaks most directly, again and again. In other words, more people will struggle with what we are saying at the point where the Bible speaks most clearly. There is no exegetical vagueness here.
...
This entire issue of slavery is a wonderful issue upon which to practice. Our humanistic and democratic culture regards slavery in itself as a monstrous evil, and it acts as though this were self-evidently true. The Bible permits Christians to own slaves, provided they are treated well. You are a Christian. Whom do you believe?
I'm trying to find out if Mr. Wilson still believes that slavery is "wonderful issue." I'm guessing that he doesn't, since he no longer likes to talk (out loud) about it.
I wonder if he agrees more now with the Bible or with Sam Harris?
I'll let you know if I get an answer.
(I recommend that you all visit Doug's blog. But if you do, be nice. Don't call the folks over there ignorant sluts. That really makes them mad.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
October 7th Update: Apparently Doug Wilson's view of slavery hasn't changed, at least it was the same in 2005 when he published Black and Tan. Here are some excepts.
The reason why many Christians will be tempted to dismiss the arguments presented here is that I am saying (out lout) that a godly man in 1850 could have been a slave owner. But this “inflammatory” position is the very point where the Bible speaks most directly, again and again. p.46
…
This entire issue of slavery is a wonderful issue upon which to practice. Our humanistic and democratic culture regards slavery in itself as a monstrous evil, malum in se, and it acts as though this were self-evidently true. The Bible permits Christians in slave-owning cultures to own slaves, provided they are treated well. You are a Christian. Whom do you believe? p.46
…
The radical abolitionist maintained that slave-owning was inherently evil under any circumstances. But in this matter, the Christians who owned slaves in the South were on firm scriptural ground. May a Christian own slaves, even when this makes him part of a larger pagan system which is not fully scriptural, or perhaps not scriptural at all? Provided he owns them in conformity to Christ’s laws governing such situations, the Bible is clear that under such conditions Christians may own slaves. p.51
…
The bible teaches that a man may be a faithful Christian and a slave-owner in a pagan slave system. p.52
…
As far as the apostle [Paul] was concerned, nothing can be plainer than the fact that a Christian could simultaneously be a slave owner and a member in good standing of the Christian church. p.52
…
But apart from the slave trade, in a slave-holding society owning slaves per se was not an abomination. The Bible does not condemn it outright, and those who believe the Bible are bound to refrain in the same way. p.55
…
It is time for us to stand and declare the truth about slavery and to expose the failures of the abolitionist worldview.p.58
…
When we set aside the teaching of Scripture on slavery, and begin to equivocate on what the Bible actually teaches, it was soon discovered that nonbelievers would not let us get away with it. It turns out that there are actual non-Christians out there who have read the Bible and who know what it says. p.62
So I guess Doug Wilson and I don't agree on everything anymore.
Posted by Steve Wells at 10/06/2010 01:09:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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13 comments:
Randomdude123 said...
Slavery. Why are we still talking about slavery and Bible? The Exodus book was written by people who thought that slavery was okay.
Wed Oct 06, 01:19:00 PM 2010
Steve Wells said...
We are still talking about slavery, Randomdude, because people still believe in the Bible.
Wed Oct 06, 01:45:00 PM 2010
Randomdude123 said...
I know Steve(which is my name)what is wrong with them ;)
Wed Oct 06, 02:19:00 PM 2010
Tito Tinajero said...
I do love Sam attack on Christians and Slavery. As it tends to avoid the historical evidence. He ignores the historical fact that first groups oppose Slavery were Christians. First, Quakers then Methodists and Baptists were the first to oppose slavery for religious reason and in principle. The first major organization to oppose slavery was, yes you guessed, Christian. (http://www.freetheslaves.net/Page.aspx?pid=482) The heart and soul of the abolition movement was founded and populated by Christians and most historians rightly claim that with out the Second Great Awakening, there would have been no abolition. The same for the work of Wilberforce and the fight to end Slave trading in England. BY the way many of the Deists and Enlightenment movement viewed Slavery in pragmatic terms, (Think Thomas Jefferson) that it was a necessary evil. It WAS THE PUSH BY CHRISTIANS THAT CALL FOR IT ABOLISHMENT that ended the practice. By Sam, the Glen Beck of atheists, has never let evidence and fact get in the way of a good rhetorical argument. Moreover, unlike Sam Harris, many Christians are still actively working on the Abolition movement. (Anyone who thinks Slavery is gone, lives, like the good Dr. Harris, in LaLa land.
Thu Oct 07, 07:25:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Tito,
I do love Sam attack on Christians and Slavery. As it tends to avoid the historical evidence.
Well, that wasn't his point, was it? His point was that the Bible approves of slavery, and in fact it does in both the Old and New Testaments. So if the Bible was inspired by God, it was inspired by a God who was wrong about slavery. (Unless you, like Doug Wilson, think slavery is right.)
Thu Oct 07, 07:32:00 AM 2010
Tito Tinajero said...
Sam point is based on very bad exegesis. The groups I mentioned that first opposed slavery did so out a commitment to scripture with Galatians 3.28 being their found text. Sam has gone into a prooftexting search of the bible to prove his point. (He has become as good a master at this) As to Doug Wilson, I can not speak. I never heard of man, but I tell you I have been active with the Free the Slaves movement, and I am active out of my faith. (http://www.life-and-faith.org/2010/05/free-slaves-dr-bales-and-breaking-of.html)
Finally, reading Wilson's quotes you provided, I would be incline to think he is like Sam in doing bad exegesis.
Thu Oct 07, 07:53:00 AM 2010
Tony said...
The first people to oppose slavery weren't quakers. The first group of people to oppose slavery were slaves.
Thu Oct 07, 08:10:00 AM 2010
Tito Tinajero said...
"The first people to oppose slavery weren't quakers. The first group of people to oppose slavery were slaves."
Agreed.
And will you now post Dr. Dr. Kevin Bales Ted Talk, (http://www.ted.com/talks/kevin_bales_how_to_combat_modern_slavery.html) and get active in eliminating Slavery once and for all. Dr. Bales runs Free the Slaves a non-religious movement to stop modern slavery.
To quote Jesus, "Do you love me...then feed my sheep." While that may not be your motivation, it is time we, to quote you all got off out "asses" and start working.
Thu Oct 07, 08:22:00 AM 2010
Namaps said...
The major abolitionist groups were all Christian, and were very motivated by their religion, undoubtedly. The problem is that southerners were also very devout and turned to scripture to justify slavery. They accused abolitionists of cherry-picking the Bible to support their own agenda. In a proper moral guide there should be NO QUESTION that slavery is wrong.
Christians do many noble things. Almost every Christian I know is tolerant and generally very reasonable. Many are exceptionally moral specifically because of their faith. But it's because of their ignorance of the Bible that this is possible. Almost every Christian I know simply ignores the unpleasant parts of the Bible.
Thu Oct 07, 03:27:00 PM 2010
skanksta said...
The point is...
while it's undoubtedly true that sincere Christians were behind the abolition of slavery - and hurrah for them - they didn't get the idea of abolishing it from the bible.
Fri Oct 08, 01:50:00 PM 2010
Tito Tinajero said...
" The point is...
while it's undoubtedly true that sincere Christians were behind the abolition of slavery - and hurrah for them - they didn't get the idea of abolishing it from the bible."
Actually, Wilberforce and the others used to cite Gal 3.28 as their founding text. Along with many text in Isiah (freeing the oppressed). Also, in an interesting side note, many historians have made the claim that one of the reason for not allowing Slaves to read was the Exodus story was to close to home. In fact, the slave owners may have been right to fear that as the Moses story was pick up by the slaves as a liberation narrative. Another interesting side note, many slave owners had a very sticky realtionship with missionaries who wanted to convert slaves. Many were tar and feathered and in a few cases hanged.
Fri Oct 08, 03:13:00 PM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
That was different, though; historically, it meant the oppressed Israelites... but, who cares about that -- let's go on and on about all the good things Christians did! :-D
...
...wait, you're saying they brutally murdered people in the name of faith?
...
...and they did what to women? :-O
...
..erm... you know what? Forget what I said. :-/
Fri Oct 08, 05:11:00 PM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
Also, is it just me, or did Jon Stewart get really hung up on the scientific basis of morality? It's almost as though he didn't take it seriously... :-/
Fri Oct 08, 05:13:00 PM 2010
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God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
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25 November 201050 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
There's a group in the United States called Not a Fan that encourage Christians to show that they aren't ashamed of Jesus (no matter how badly he behaved in the gospels) by being not just fans, but fanatics.
But every believer should be ashamed of Jesus and no one should be his fan. It's time for us all to defriend him.
Here are some reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus.
He told his followers to hate their families.
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children,and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:26
He came to break apart families.
I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. Matthew 10:35-36
The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. Luke 12:51-53
He insisted that his followers love him more than anyone else (including their families).
He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. Matthew 10:37
He encouraged people to abandon their home and family for his name's sake.
And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. Matthew 19:29, Mark 10:29-30, Luke 18:29-30
He was rude to his own family.
Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! Matthew 12: 47-49, Mark 3:31-34, Luke 8:20-21
He was dismissive of other people's feelings toward their families.
And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead. Matthew 8:21-22, Luke 9:59-62
He discouraged marriage.
They which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage. Luke 20:35
He was a hypocrite. He told his followers not to call anyone a fool.
Whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. Matthew 5:22
Yet he often called his critics and disciples fools.
Ye fools and blind. Matthew 23:17, 19
Ye fools. Luke 11:40
O fools, and slow of heart to believe. Luke 24:25
He encouraged his followers to mutilate themselves to avoid hell.
Whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out ... And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. Matthew 5:28-30
If thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire. Matthew 18:8-9
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off ... And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off ... And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. Mark 9:43-48
He encouraged men to castrate themselves.
There are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it. Matthew 19:12
He approved of God's killings in the Bible.
And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words ... It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. Matthew 10:14-15
But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Matthew 24:37
As it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man ... the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot ... the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all ... Remember Lot's wife. Luke 17:26-32
As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: John 3:14
He believed in the Old Testament's stories.
But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Matthew 24:37, Luke 17:27
But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. ... Remember Lot's wife. Luke 17:29-32
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Matthew 12:40
He accepted Old Testament laws.
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Matthew 5:17
He criticized the Pharisees for not killing parent-cursing children.
God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. Matthew 15:4
Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death. Mark 7:10
He and his dad plan to torture billions of people forever after they die.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Matthew 7:19
Fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 13:41-42
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 13:49-50
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. Matthew 25:41
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment. Matthew 25:46
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:16
Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him. Luke 12: 5
He implied that all Jews are going to hell.
But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 8:12
He was a false prophet.
Verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. Matthew 10:23
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Matthew 16:28, Mark 9:1, Luke 9:27
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Matthew 24:34, Mark 13:30, Luke 21:32
Behold, I come quickly. Revelation 3:11, 22:7, 22:11, 22:20
He was a warmonger.
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. Matthew 10:34, Luke 12:51-53
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. Revelation 19:11
He was a megalomaniac.
Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed. Mark 8:38
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God ... he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:18, 36
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:16
He condemned cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn't care for his preaching.
Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! ... And thou, Capernaum ... shalt be brought down to hell ... it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee. Matthew 11:21-24
Whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. Mark 6:11
But into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you not ... it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city. Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! ... And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell. Luke 10:10-15
He called an entire generation perverse, evil, adulterous vipers.
O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? ... Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign. Matthew 12:34-39, 16:4
Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation.... 17:17
He invented George W. Bush's false dichotomy.
He that is not with me is against me. Matthew 12:30, Luke 11:230
He approved of torture.
And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses. Matthew 18:34-35
He inspired the Republican Tea Party.
Whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Matthew 13:12, Mark 4:25
Unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. Matthew 25:29
He believed in an unforgivable sin.
Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men ... whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. Matthew 12:31-32, Mark 3:29, Luke 12:10
He spoke in parables to confuse people so he could send them to hell.
And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them. Mark 4:11, Matthew 13:10-15
He believed in a God (himself?) who had his enemies slaughtered in front of him.
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. Luke 19:27
He believed in devils, evil eyes, and unclean spirits.
Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying ... cast out devils. Matthew 10:5-8
Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him. Matthew 12:22
And Jesus rebuked the devil. Matthew 17:18
And he ... cast out many devils; and suffered not the devils to speak, because they knew him. Mark 1:34
Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils. Luke 9:1
And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God. And he straitly charged them that they should not make him known. Mark 3:11-12
An evil eye ... defile the man. Mark 7:22-23
But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. Matthew 6:23, Luke 11:34
There was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit ... And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him. Mark 1:23-25
He gave them power against unclean spirits. Matthew 10:1
When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation. Matthew 12:43-45, Luke 11:24-26
He was a bit of a racist.
The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter. But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs. Mark 7:26-27, Matthew 15:22-26
He condemned people to hell for things that their ancestors supposedly did.
Ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. ... Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? ... Upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Matthew 23:31-35
He got kind of gross sometimes.
And he ... put his fingers into his ears, and he spit, and touched his tongue. Mark 7:33
He took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought. Mark 8: 23
He spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay. John 9:6
Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life ... For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him ... He that eateth me, even he shall live by me. John 6:53-57
He approved of slavery (or at least didn't object to it) and said that God is like a slave owner who beats his slaves and sells families to pay for debts.
And a certain centurion's servant [slave], who was dear unto him, was sick, and ready to die. And when he heard of Jesus, he sent unto him the elders of the Jews, beseeching him that he would come and heal his servant. ... When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. And they that were sent, returning to the house, found the servant whole that had been sick. Luke 7:2-10
And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. Luke 12:47
The kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. Matthew 18:23-25
Someday he'll fight against people with a sword sticking out of his mouth.
Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. Revelation 2:16
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. ... And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. Revelation 19:15, 21
He threatens to kill children (with death).
I will kill her children with death. Revelation 2:23
He's going to kill billions of people with his sickle.
Upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. ,,, And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. ... And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs. Revelation 14:14-20
He unnecessarily killed 2000 pigs.
And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding. So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine. And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters. Matthew 8:30-32
And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine ... And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea. Mark 5:12-13
Then went the devils out of the man, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the lake, and were choked. Luke 8:33
He killed a fig tree by cursing it. (Because it didn't have any fruit that he could eat.)
When he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away. Matthew 21:19
And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet. And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. Mark 11:13-14
He didn't know much about Biology.
It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth: But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it. Mark 4:31-32
He lied about prayer.
Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. Matthew 17:20
That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them. Mark 11:23-24
Whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do. John 14:13-14, 15:7, 15:16, 16:23
If ye have faith, and doubt not ... if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done. And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive. Matthew 21:21-22
If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you. Luke 17:6
He said some stupid things.
All things are possible to him that believeth. Mark 9:23
Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Luke 10:19
That which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. Luke 16:15
Some of you shall they cause to be put to death ... but there shall not an hair of your head perish. Luke 21:16-18
Woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. Luke 21:23
He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. John 7:38
And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world ... that they which see might be made blind. John 9:39
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. John 12:25
He talked complete nonsense about the end of the world.
Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows. ... In those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. Mark 13:8, 24-25, Matthew 24:3-30, Luke 21:10-11
He said that everyone who lived before him was a thief and a robber.
All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers John 10:8
His neighbors rejected him.
Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things? And they were offended in him. Matthew 13:55-57, Mark 6:3
Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? John 6:42
Many that saw him up close and personal thought he was mad and possessed by a devil.
Many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him? John 10:20
His family didn't believe in him.
For neither did his brethren believe in him. John 7:5
His friends thought he was insane.
And when his friends heard of it, they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is beside himself. Mark 3:21
He said that his true followers would cast out devils, speak in tongues, handle snakes, and drink poisons.
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. Mark 16:17-18
He said that disbelievers will be tormented forever in hell.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:16
He dresses kind of funny.
The Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; And his feet like unto fine brass ... and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword. Revelation 1:13-16
The Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass Revelation 2:18
His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood ... And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword ... And ... on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. Revelation 19:12-16
He is the living dead with keys to hell and death.
I am he that liveth, and was dead... and have the keys of hell and of death. Revelation 1:13-16
Posted by Steve Wells at 11/25/2010 06:18:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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113 comments:
RsD said...
Only 28 reasons, Steve? Are you slipping or just laying the groundwork for your next book?
Thu Nov 25, 10:07:00 PM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Well, it's a start, RsD. I'm sure there are quite a few that I've missed. I'll add them as I find them.
Thu Nov 25, 10:23:00 PM 2010
C Woods said...
I am always amazed at the vast research you do for your posts. Thanks for all your work. Great stuff to use when when gets into a discussion with a believer.
I defriended Jesus about 50 years ago.
When I was a kid, "What a Friend We Have in Jesus" was one of my favorite hymns. I just looked up the lyrics ---what rubbish.
I learned I can get the first stanza of the song as a ring tone. I'll pass on that.
Thu Nov 25, 11:35:00 PM 2010
J. said...
You forgot this one Steve.
Fri Nov 26, 03:07:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Thanks, J. That's a good one.
I'm sure there's plenty more out there. Jesus is a lot like Sarah Palin. He should have been fully vetted before being selected as the messiah.
Fri Nov 26, 06:31:00 AM 2010
Oz said...
Not a fan of religion, but some of these are CLEARLY misinterpretations. I doubt there will be a literal sword hanging out of Christ's mouth.
I thought we were opposed to literalism.
Fri Nov 26, 07:54:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Really, Oz? Some of these are CLEARLY misinterpretations? Which ones in particular?
I'd love to hear the correct interpretation of Revelation 19:15, 21. Will Jesus kill people with a metaphorical sword that sticks out of his mouth? Would that be OK with you?
I thought we were opposed to literalism.
Whose the "we" here? I take the Bible seriously and I don't try to find excuses for it when it says things that are cruel, nasty, and absurd (which is almost always). A person who isn't a fan of religion shouldn't cover up for it.
Fri Nov 26, 08:14:00 AM 2010
Maureen said...
Aha, great... I can check that one off my list now. I was wondering what to do about the whole Jesus question but you just answered it very nicely for me. Thanks :)
Fri Nov 26, 11:28:00 AM 2010
Ajay said...
This is just so fantastic. I have really come to despise people who say things like, "Well I don't believe in Jesus, but he was a great moral teacher." WTF?
Fri Nov 26, 08:58:00 PM 2010
Kaylanamars said...
I remember reading or learning about those passages in seminary/institute or at church and thinking that was pretty messed up but they were always apologized away...Oh, Jesus didn't really mean to hate your parents...just that you need to love god more and uh...the sword bit is talking about the second coming and uh....the fig tree...well, he was using it as a metaphor for what will happen to you when you don't do what he asks, yeah, that's it....ummm. Yup, pretty messed up. It's been under a year for me since I officially defriended the possibly imaginary man.
Fri Nov 26, 09:26:00 PM 2010
kingbeauregard said...
Which ones are clearly misinterpretations? Well, the first several. Talk to anyone who counts as a religious scholar (i.e. someone who knows his Bible but also talks unashamedly about JEPD) and they will tell you that all that bit about hating your family, putting Jesus first, etc. was a challenge to first-century Semitic clan-based concepts of loyalty. In other words, if you're going to treat all men like brothers in good Samaritan-like fashion, that has to come before clan loyalties and traditional animosities. Is that going to make you well-loved in your clan? Most likely not. But then again, a man really can't serve two masters, and Jesus was letting his flock know what to expect if they're going to be serious about following his teachings.
I see the one about bringing a sword eventually made the list too, at #16. See above.
And also, "He believed in the Old Testament's stories" ... really? That's what you're going with? You actually expect one fictional character in a story to tell other characters, "Guys, all the stuff that happened in chapters 1-3 was fiction"?
Sat Nov 27, 05:02:00 AM 2010
jenn said...
Just curious, if the three gospels you quote the most from, (Luke, Mark, and Matthew) were written about 50 years after Jesus was alive, and all basically copying each other. Also that the Bible has been constructed over centuries by those in power, is it fair to say Jesus was, said or did "x" I am not an advocate of religion, but just trying to wrap my head around how critiques of the Bible are constructed.
Sat Nov 27, 07:56:00 AM 2010
spaceman100 said...
@jenn I think he is talking about the Biblical Jesus. If Jesus existed he was probably way unlike the one in the Bible.
Sun Nov 28, 01:48:00 PM 2010
Fatman said...
This sort of morbid idiocy always leaves me in utter confusion... really, have any of the religulous people even read the Bible? And if they have, how does a sane person believe in that fluff? Oh wait.... sane people don't. Never mind.
Sun Nov 28, 02:45:00 PM 2010
Alan said...
You wasted a lot of time and energy on a nothing. Go back up the chain a bit. There is no such thing as a god (that's a given) so logically there can be no son of that god. End of story.
Therefor critiquing a book which is nothing more than plagerism of much earlier attempts to scare ignorant people into being good is not a good use of your time.
Example:
EGYPT 3000bc
Horus
Born on Dec 25th
Born of a virgin
Star in the east
Teacher at 12
Baptized ministry at 30, had 12 disciples.
GREECE 12bc
Attis
Born of a virgin on Dec 25th
Crucified
Dead 3 days and ressurected.
PERSIA 1200bc
Mithra
Born of a virgin on Dec 25th
12 desciples, performed miracles
Dead 3 days then ressurected
sunday worship.
It's all been done before, why worry about this latest one?
Sun Nov 28, 08:28:00 PM 2010
RsD said...
Spaceman, with the only "proof" of a historical Jesus being the Bible, it's really silly to let Oz and their ilk even make the claim that the real Jesus wasn't like the one in the Bible.
Without the Bible, Jesus goes from approximately a 5% chance of ever having existed to way less than a 1% chance.
Sun Nov 28, 09:06:00 PM 2010
Shawn said...
@Fatman I know just what you mean. I recently mentioned to a very religious colleague of mine that I had read the Bible cover to cover. His reply was something along the lines of "Really? The Bible? I haven't even done that."
Exactly, I thought. Exactly.
Mon Nov 29, 12:13:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Alan,
Horus, Attis, and Mithra have few followers today, whereas Jesus has more than 2 billion. So I don't think it's a "waste of time and energy" to address them.
Maybe you should start your own blog on Horus, Attis, Mithra, et al. That way you wouldn't have to waste your time reading mine.
Mon Nov 29, 02:49:00 PM 2010
Maureen said...
Alan - because people like myself grew up indoctrinated with belief in Jesus and it can be hard to let go. This post that Steve has put together really helped me to solidify why I need to let go. (Even after having discovered all of the Horus characters!). It takes time to undo 30 years of believing something.
Mon Nov 29, 05:07:00 PM 2010
skanksta said...
Another clarion of clarity from Steve - stick that up your pipe and smoke it C.S. Lewis !
I bet you're jealous that it's the Christians that are embarrassed to 'come out' in the UK !?
I shall be using your blog to help make it stay that way...
Wed Dec 01, 02:31:00 AM 2010
spaceman100 said...
@RsD I don't believe Jesus ever existed. However, IF he existed it's unlike the Jesus of the Bible.
Wed Dec 01, 10:47:00 AM 2010
TaoCat said...
kingbeauregard -
You would think a divinely-inspired work would be timeless and more clear, don't you think? And he didn't say clan, he named specific family members. I swear I can't recall him saying "Oh, and a lot of this stuff is metaphorical. You can only understand it by suspending your reason and believing in me, then it will make sense."
Thu Dec 02, 02:46:00 PM 2010
twillight said...
Wow Steve, 50? That's a hugh boost compared to the list you started with. (I wonder how close this list will reach the "ways to save yourself" list.)
@Shawn: same thing happened me with priests of christianity. THAT was a surprise.
Fri Dec 03, 01:58:00 AM 2010
Just me. said...
I can't believe the insanity by which you take the majority (if not all) of these passages out of context and interpret them incorrectly. In fact, I have a feeling you have a much better understanding of the Bible than what you've written. So what gives for you to say such things? It doesn't make sense to me, because what you've written is ridiculous.
Fri Dec 03, 11:10:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
That's great, Just me! Now that you're here you can tell us the correct, in-context interpretation of all the shit Jesus said. How about picking one to start with. (I'd like them all explained if you have time.)
Oh heck, I'll pick one for you. When Jesus said that you must hate your entire family and yourself to be his disciple in Luke 14:26, he didn't mean it, right? (Jesus never meant what he said or said what he meant.) So what did he mean to say? And why didn't he say it if that's what he meant?
Fri Dec 03, 11:46:00 AM 2010
TaoCat said...
@Just me.
Why don't you tell us what is out of context and why. Then tell us if your interpretations are the same as all the rest of christianity, and if not, why not. Then tell us why the bible is any better than the other myths Steve exposes here.
Or, maybe you're simply going through mental contortions to make sense of a cobbled-together document written by a bunch of ancient control-freaks. Cognitive dissonance, the gift that keeps giving.
Fri Dec 03, 11:48:00 AM 2010
atheistcarealotaboutus said...
Steve,
Let's be honest, no non-believers here are actually seeking to hear an interpretation that doesn't agree with theirs, it is a waste of time for anyone who believes in Christ to try and explain anything, Steve you don't seek anything beyond what you and those that agree with you already believe to be true, no interpretation will satisfy you, because your mind is made up, by the way that marriage article was a joke, I like how you avoided all the scripture in between that refute your claims, anyway why do so many non-believers give a damn?
that's my question for you
Sat Dec 04, 04:24:00 PM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Let's be honest, atheistcarealotaboutus. You are ashamed of Jesus.
You don't know why he said the stupid things that he said and you wish he hadn't said them. It's embarrassing! Take the first one on the list, for example. Jesus said that you must hate your family in order to be his disciple. You believe that you should love your family, so you ignore Luke 14:26 and pretend that Jesus didn't say it. Or you admit that he said it but claim that he didn't mean what he clearly said. Or maybe I'm wrong and you have another explanation. If so, let me know.
You say that my Christian marriage post "was a joke." I'd love to hear why you think it was so funny. Believers are always telling me how I misinterpret scripture, yet they aren't willing to present the "correct" interpretation. But maybe you'll be willing to give it a try.
Sat Dec 04, 09:23:00 PM 2010
Samuel McNamara said...
You're supposed to love Christ first(it's supposed to be your number one priority), which is hatred in the eyes of the world.
Hey I put my family before certain friends, certain friends before my family, certain ethics before others(the golden rule is a secondary ethic, and utilitarianism is a tertiary ethic).
So yeah.
Mon Dec 06, 04:00:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
No, Samuel, you're supposed to hate your family. If you don't hate your family, you can't be Jesus' disciple.
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children,and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:26
Sorry about that.
Mon Dec 06, 07:39:00 AM 2010
Just me. said...
@Steve Wells
In this case, Jesus says that one's love for God must be so great that the love he or she has for family looks like hatred by comparison.
The idea is that one must not be tied to family or himself in order to be a disciple of Christ.
This is one of the many drawbacks of translation in languages. Much of the original meaning and cultural context in many verses is lost in ways English cannot recover.
Mon Dec 06, 08:01:00 AM 2010
Samuel McNamara said...
No *Steve* I came to Christ knowing full well that I hated my family, in fact I despised them utterly, and what love I did have for them was in vain.
"If any man come to me".
Loving Christ made me overflow with love in general.
but were my family, or friends or whatever, sent to hell, I wouldn't miss them one bit, because I'm utterly satisfied in christ.
Mon Dec 06, 08:08:00 AM 2010
Markus Arelius said...
Samuel, you said:
"were my family, or friends or whatever, sent to hell, I wouldn't miss them one bit, because I'm utterly satisfied in christ"
I'm ok with this (I don't believe in hell, but I get your desire for them to experience pain/suffering/revenge) if this is how you feel. It's your life. But be honest. You can surely understand how others outside your life's perspective might view your statement as selfish and negative. You can see why some would refuse to align with it/share it. "Hate" is a very strong word that most people don't want to be associated with. You might hate your family, while others might like or even love them. Not easy to reconcile personal feelings of hatred because the world is not only about you or me
I do believe that Jesus is being crystal clear with his word choice here. Normally, not a problem - until such beliefs start informing our actions. To leave someone be and hate them with a passion from a distance - not great, but workable, I guess. Now bring the person you hate into closer proximity and who knows what might happen. War, murder, attack. Not so good.
Christians I have spoken too (I used to be a Lutheran myself) frequently talk about the martyrdom aspect and the everybody else (the world!) being irreparably "evil" - i.e. those outside the Christian circle will never accept Christ and therefore are incapable of understanding Jesus. It's the perfect out. The perfect way to avoid criticism and continue with the belief and the actions informed by them.
You can believe what you want, but I would come to expect a lot of criticism and ridicule going forward.
Mon Dec 06, 09:53:00 AM 2010
Fatman said...
Just me. wrote:
"In this case, Jesus says that one's love for God must be so great that the love he or she has for family looks like hatred by comparison."
If we manage to move past the fact that your "explanation" makes even less sense than the original version, we still have to deal with the fact that what you wrote can in no way be inferred from the actual bit in the Bible, even if one allows for a lot of room for interpretation, hidden meanings, etc., etc.
But if you ever get the chance to re-write this ridiculous piece of hate-inspiring fiction, make sure you change that part, I like your version much better.
Samuel McNamara wrote:
"but were my family, or friends or whatever, sent to hell, I wouldn't miss them one bit, because I'm utterly satisfied in christ."
I will paraphrase poster "Just me.": In this case, Samuel McNamara's post was so idiotic that its utter lack of sense and sociopathic overtone make Just me.'s post look like a sensible explanation by comparison.
But thank you both for confirming my opinion on people who take this sort of absurd drivel seriously. Who said we have nothing to learn from each other? :)
Mon Dec 06, 11:32:00 AM 2010
11-year old Panendeist said...
"This is one of the many drawbacks of translation in languages."
-Just Me
Just Me, people who translate the Bible try really hard to get the correct message of the Bible.
Mon Dec 06, 02:57:00 PM 2010
skanksta said...
Steve,
I don't know if this can be used as one of your text-based, direct quotes, but perhaps...
"Jesus acquiesced to slavemasters"
I remember a bible story from school - around 10 years old - that troubled me about Jesus...
He gets asked to heal a slave by a (kindly) slavemaster. I assumed Jesus was going to set the slave free, but he just healed him - back to a life of slavery !
Even at that age it bothered me a lot that Jesus didn't MENTION slavery at that point. It would have been the ideal time to stir up morality, make people think of true goodness etc. Perhaps, even some money-lending temple-table-tipping action ??
But no, he did bugger all.
Poor show, from the 'light of the world' !
Wed Dec 08, 10:45:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Thanks, skansta. I added the story from Luke 7 about the centurion's slave to #32.
Mon Dec 13, 03:42:00 PM 2010
Mic said...
Superb! 50 Reasons I never saw it like this. You opened my eyes - thanks
There are some here, [I'm looking at you Alan and atheistcarealotaboutus]
that are bothered by this reveal of the truth.
It matters!
Whatever the religion/belief, it is irrelevant that it is just a made-up story, the fact is there are powerful people who actually believe this crap and make life and death decisions,not for themselves because then I couldn't give a damn, but for other innocent people. You see the leaders of all religions, never put themselves in harms way. So they send lackeys to die in vain.
It affects us all, be it a belief to fly planes into buildings or to ban a life saving procedure because some god kinda, sorta says so. They interfere with mature consenting adults lifestyles which hurt no-one and they deny the progress of science because its anti-god. Imagine, just close your eyes and really imagine what life would be like if someone like Palin was president or if the Taliban was the norm in the Muslim world. Yeah you get the picture.
Does anybody know of a radical crazy group of scientists that advocates the wholesale burning of books about I.D.? Or what about a group of professors that want us to go backward in our progress and trying to ram it down our throats? Has there ever been an unspeakable act by normal decent hardworking folks trying to tear down a country by the most insane methods imaginable? No?
An old saying: For evil to flourish, good men/women do nothing. If this author and others are fighting the good fight,then good on them - its help me see things more clearly and in perspective.
Wed Dec 15, 03:50:00 AM 2010
Nathan said...
The problem here is both context of scriptures but also the point of reference by which you view Jesus. IF Jesus did exist, and IF Jesus was God in the flesh, and IF Jesus has always been from eternity past then for him to demand allegiance, send blasphemers to eternal torment, and rule and reign when he returns wouldn't be crazy or hateful but would be logical because he isn't just some other human being. He's God. And that makes a HUGE difference. Then his law isn't out of insecurity or hate but out love and holiness. If anyone else on this blog made the claims that Christ did in the Scriptures then that person would undoubtedly be a self-absorbed egomaniac. But Jesus is unlike any person on this blog. He is, and claimed to be, God in the flesh. I'm not here to start an argument or contribute to one for that matter. I am, however, here to pose a view point that maybe has been overlooked by a presupposition that Christ is fictional which would then be completely irresponsible to the evidence both historical and circumstantial. Grace and peace to you.
Thu Dec 30, 07:43:00 AM 2010
Mic said...
Nathan, a very humanistic point of view on the authority to God. It would seem that [according to your logic] anyone in authority has the right to crush their dissenters with an iron fist because of awesome power. Like Idi Amin, Kimmy Jong Il and every other despot who have littered history with their cruel behaviour simply because they could. Or are you saying that ONLY God can be like this because it is out of love and holiness! Isn't that hypocrisy? Many abusive priests say the same thing to justify such heinous acts. Would you say these despots behave like they do because of insecurity or hate, and yet God who does the same thing does not?
As humans we are prone to abusive dominance when we are put in a place of supreme power and control [The Stanford Experiment, Abu Ghraib, abusive priests and every arsehole boss] so your defense of God is very human indeed. Maybe God really did create us since we truly reflect this behaviour, which you seem to say is divine.
1 Corinthians 13 v4-8 talks about what love is. Can you honestly say that God's nature and ALL his acts/decrees etc [and it must be consistent throughout history/bible] matches up with Paul's definition? Now be honest, because lying is a sin!
So it is even worse IF Christ is real and behaves like this because then he is just another despot with absolute power.
Fri Dec 31, 05:32:00 AM 2010
will said...
JESUS EXISTS! His name is Jesus Ramirez and he's my neighbor!
...Oh you mean THAT Jesus? Whoops, he's some Bedouin tribesman's brainfart.
Sun May 01, 04:38:00 PM 2011
gliblord said...
Lol at Jesus killing "with death." Reminds me of Superboy Prime.
Wed Aug 17, 12:26:00 PM 2011
Magick1369 said...
Jesus is a mythological figure and this becomes obvious to anyone that has studied the archetypes of the unconscious and comparative religions. Christianity is the biggest farce and lie ever perpetrated on the human race. The church created the mythological Jesus and historicized him when they created their salvation dogma. The salvation dogma gave the church immense political power because the church asserted that it alone has authority over human's souls. The stupid Catholic church still makes this claim. The problem is Christianity and its falsehood and mythological nature and the fact that most humans are at a low level of intellectual and spiritual development and have no developed discernment. Such simpletons take everything at face value and interpret all of reality literally. They are incapable of discerning allegory and mythology from literal history. You would think that humans would have smartened up by now and abandoned their silly gods and myths...especially seeing the disastrous psychological effects Christianity has caused the human race. The "believe or else fry in hell" teaching is alone enough to cause one mental torment.
Tue Aug 23, 12:06:00 PM 2011
Abemore said...
I'm the most atheistic motherfucker around, but this shit is badly flawed. Your downfall is that you used the SAB as your source.
The SAB unfortunately was either written by the dumbest person in the world, OR (and this is my guess) intentionally and blatantly takes many verses out of context. And that makes the SAB a shitty resource. An example is #14. Thankfully most of SAB's obvious contextual errors have been pointed out by theists.
The integrity of your article fails because you built it on the flimsy foundation of SAB, and that's a shame. Take care.
Thu Sep 01, 04:37:00 PM 2011
Steve Wells said...
Thanks for that, Abemore! It's nice to have the most atheist motherfucker around around here.
Yeah, I admit it. I based my post on the SAB. I've spent the last 20 years working on it, so it's not too surprising that I'd refer to it now and then. (I guess that makes me the dumbest person in the world.)
If you can find a moment, could you explain your objection to #14 or any of the other 49? I know you're really busy as an atheist motherfucker, but I'd like to understand your objection a bit more.
Thu Sep 01, 04:47:00 PM 2011
Abemore said...
#14 was a bad example but I'm right about SAB
Thu Sep 01, 04:57:00 PM 2011
Steve Wells said...
#14 was a bad example but I'm right about SAB
Do you have a good example, Abemore?
You say you're right about the SAB. You mean that it was "written by the dumbest person in the world"?
Thu Sep 01, 05:25:00 PM 2011
Tom VonOxford said...
To Abemore:
PLEASE
Knock off your context bullshit. No true atheist motherfucker would ever use the "context" argument. You are a damn Christian aren't you? A wolf in sheep's clothing.
Please explain how context changes this:
"Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death. Mark 7:10"
Amazing - in this one phrase we see not one but two of the Bible's heros advocating the murder of your children for sass.
The real context is that 1500 years ago, that same Moses said "Thou shalt not kill". So there's context for you.
Oh - out of context. Sorry. Educate me on the context so that I will be able to interpret it correctly. Quick - my kid just sassed me and I'm about to kill him. I don't really want to but luminaries no less than Moses AND Mark and Matthew have said I should.
BTW Abemore,
Your innane comment "The integrity of your article fails because you built it on the flimsy foundation of SAB, and that's a shame. makes YOU the stupidest person I have ever heard. It is a non sequitur(that means there is no correlation {relation} between the context {discourse that surrounds a language unit} of the original discussion and what you said.
And how is quoting from the SAB introducing bad context? It repeats what the Holy Babble says - the problem is with the Holy Babble, not a copy of it. The "flimsy foundation" upon which the SAB is built is the Holy Babble, you moron.
Sun Sep 11, 06:20:00 AM 2011
Ratman said...
@Alan.
Excuse me, but you are just repeating some lousy pieces of information that you most likely found on some lousy sub-standard website.
Let me remind you that;
a) Horus WAS NOT born of a virgin. Isis was Married to Osiris. The latter had been killed and cut into 14 pieces. Because Isis couldn't find his penis, she fashioned him a substitue phallus and attached it to his corpse (she had brought together all the other pieces his body had been cut into) after which she had sex with her husband's reassembled revived body and that's how Horus was conceived. Also, Horus' had MORE than 12 disciples and he was born in October or November, pr at least that's when Egyptians would celebrate his birth.
b)Attis' birth doesn't exclude sexuality. According to the legend, Agdistis-who was a demon with both male and female sexual organs-had his/her/its penis cut off by the gods and cast away. From his detached penis an almond tree grew. A young woman called Nana(the legend doesn't tell us if she was a virgin or not) picked one of the almonds that had fallen from the tree and placed it in her bosom. Not long after, the seed disappeares and to her amazement she finds out that she is pregnant with Attis. We are left to believe that the almond, which was metaforically speaking Agdisti's sperm, impregnanted her. In any case, Attis' conception involves sexuality and it can't be compared to Christ's virginal non-sexual conception. Also, this recount dates from the second century BC, whereas the Judeo-Christian prophecy of the Messiah's being born of a virgin predates the recount on Attis' birth by 6-7 centuries. If anything, you can accuse that the legend of Attis' birth was stolen from the Old Testament, and not the other way around.
3) Mithra wasn't born of a virgin. As a matter of fact, he emerged from a ROCK, not from a human being. You are confusing Mithra with Zorozaster's son (who is said to be the messiah) who, according to the legend, will be born of a virgin. However, the legend specifies that Zoroaster's sperm, which is preserved in a lake, will impregnate the young virgin as she is bathing in that lake. This doesn't compare with Christ's conception since Mary wasn't impregnated seminally. What's more, this recount dates from the 9th century AD, it post-dates Christ's times by almost a millenium, if anything you can accuse Persians of stealing elements from Christianity, and not the other way around.
Also, Mithra is depicted in the middle of twelve ZODIACAL SIGNS, tying these signs to Christ's twelve Apostles is far-fetched if you ask me.
If you have something PERSONAL against Christianity I suggest you should just ignore it and stop trying to damage its reputation by flinging accusations at it and backing them up with pieces of ”evidence” that are just your own biased (and erroneous) interpretations of different historical facts. It just shows that you're a pitiful simpleton consumed by hatred.
Mon Dec 12, 02:49:00 PM 2011
Ratman said...
@ Steve
Is it me or have you just googled your information on Christ ? Have you actually READ the New Testament, from beginning to end ? You are conveniently taking those quotes out of the context they were first formulated in.
Let me remind you that;
1)Christ said that whoever wished to be HIS DISCIPLE had to go as far as to everyone except Him. The key word here is DISCIPLE. Not everyone satisfied all the criteria to be Christ's disciple. What does it take to be a disciple of Christ? To be a fool for Christ, not to care about anything and anyone else. Christ has to be everything for you-your mother, your father, your friends, your spouse, your children, your clothes, your food, everything. This wasn't expected of everyone, since many people asked Christ to allow them to become His disciples and He wouldn't have them join His congregation.
2) Christ stated that he didn't come to cater to men. He came to tell it as it was, the cold hard truth. His cousin, John the Baptizer, did the same thing and became a nuisance for many people. Christ came to do away with sin, and in order to do that He had to make people aware of their sinful condition. The Jews were expecting a messiah that would praise the people of Israel and wage war against the Roman invaders who had taken control of the Jewish nation by force. Christ wasn't the messiah they were expecting, He criticized the Jews and befriended many pagans, broke many Jewish customs and went as far as to claim He was God. So of course, in this context Christ is a conflictual character.
3) He didn't treat His family badly. In the Old Testament Mary is seen as an Emperess, sitting at Christ's right hand.
[9] Kings' daughters were among thy honourable women: upon thy right hand did stand the queen in gold of Ophir.
Jesus made sure Mary would be taken care of by John, the Apostle He loved most.
[26] When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
[27] Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.
In reality Mary was Christ's only relative. He didn't have a family.
4) Christ wasn't a hypocrite. He was allowed to criticize whomever He wanted since he was God.
5) What do you have to say about the fact that He also:
a) forgave His enemies
b) sat at the same table as sinners and didn't reprove them for their sinful lives, he talked to them and listened to what they had to tell Him,
c) said that we should do to others what we would have them do to us
d) took human form and became vulnerable to diseases, pain and death
e) gave His life for the world
What do you have to say about these quotations :
” Whoever is forgiven much, loves much ”
” Forgive others if you would want your heavenly Father to forgive you ”
” Love your brother as yourself”
” Why do you see the speck in your brother's eye but fail to see the beam that is in yours ?”
I like Christ. I love Christ. No other God descended from the heavens to dine and converse with sinners and hear what they had to say. And no other God offers His people His own Flesh and Body as food. My God suffered for me, it's not easy to be crucified and endure that pain without hating those who have nailed you to the the cross. Yet Christ didn't hate anyone. Christ is a better person than your people, who wouldn't even lift a straw to help me when I need to be helped. I guess Christ is just too good for your people since He calls into question everything they support: the use of drugs, sexual decadence, selfishness, greed, irresponsibility, etc. You feel threatened by Christ, don't you ?
Mon Dec 12, 04:59:00 PM 2011
Ratman said...
@ Tom
You need to understand that the OLD TESTAMENT is replaced with the NEW TESTAMENT, therefore some of the commandments from the OT disappear in favor of the new ones.
[6] But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
[7] For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
[8] For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
[9] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
[10] For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
[13] In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
The two Testaments are as different as day and night.
Mon Dec 12, 05:11:00 PM 2011
Ratman said...
In any case, it's late, I'm tired and hungry. I'm going to eat now and hit the sac afterwards. This is my last message. I strongly suggest that you shouldn't reduce all Christians to one level, Christ didn't generalize all unbelievers as being sinful, so if you're going to contest Him then try to be better than Him in this respect and stop generalizing all Christians (and people whom you dislike) as being stupid.
Just because some Christians are flawed doesn't mean Christ was imperfect. Don't blame the architect for the mason's mistakes.
I'm gone.
Mon Dec 12, 05:32:00 PM 2011
Mic said...
Well said Maureen!
Mon Dec 12, 07:44:00 PM 2011
Mic said...
@Ratman, sounds like you are a Catholic, if you are, then you will have all the Evangelical, born again types on your back.
"The two Testaments are as different as day and night." and
"In the Old Testament Mary is seen as an Emperess, sitting at Christ's right hand."
Seems like you need to tighted up your argument, maybe you are just tired from the gattling gun waffle you just finished.
And all those other virtues you mentioned as though Christians/Christ have the exclusive franchise on these, well all manner of people are like this; muslims, jews,buddhist, bikies, mothers, atheists, my pet dog etc. On the flip side some of the cruellest and vile acts have been done by Catholics, Christians, God, Allah, atheists muslims,jews mothers, bikies etc but not my pet dog.
The point is these virtues mean nothing as far as divine influence and are part of the human condition, no matter who your are.
Mon Dec 12, 08:00:00 PM 2011
Jesus' friend said...
The bible is meant for study. If you study it you will understand. The Satan that you worship is blinding you to only hear what you want to hear . Jesus is God and He loves us all. He wants you to hate sin and love Him. He wants you to repent. He spoke in parables so you would go study His word and understand it. He didnt want the enemy to realize why He came because satan would have tried to stop the death on the cross if satan had known the truth. Jesus fulfilled the law because He covered all of the worlds sin. He made a new covenant with us. He said love Him with all you heart soul mind and strength and love your neighbor (other people, enemies) as yourself. If you do these two things then you won't steal from them or murder them or commit adultery or lie and so on. Jesus is the light of men and he wishes none to perish. He is a just God and if He wasn't just then we could do whatever we wanted and there would be no consequences for our actions. That is why Jesus came and died on the cross for you and everyone in the world because He wants us to live with Him in heaven and not go to an eternal hell where there will be an eternal separation from God. If Jesus hadn't died on the cross as the perfect sacrifice then we would still have to sacrifice animals for our sin and we would be imperfect to stand in front of God on judgement day. God requires perfection to be in His presence and we all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Jesus paid your fine by dying on the cross so that you can live with Him some day in heaven. He did exist. Isaiah of the bible prophesied Jesus' coming. Also Jeremiah. Ezekialis the prophesy of what is happening right now in the end times. The Christians scholars believe we are on Ezekiel 37 and 38 right now. Research the bible. Try to listen and comprehend what you read in the bible. It is a beautiful picture of why we need a savior.
Thu Dec 22, 09:15:00 AM 2011
Mic said...
Wow thanks Jesus' friend! You have swayed me and convinced me, I'm ready to be born again......But there is one thing I'm hung up on. Your almost nonchalant statement about how we are Satan worshipers, has snag me on the road to salvation. The problem is, there are plenty of people just as passionate and committed as you,(and probably more holy) who would say the god you worship is in fact satan.
Herein is the start of most wars and the motivation and justification to commit the most inhumane acts ever imagined to a fellow human being.
Also why would God give a flying monkey shit and being all scared about Satan stopping the crucifixion. According to your lore he is the most powerful entity in the Universe and can do whatever he wants. So like so many things about religion, your reasoning made no sense.
I think you need to listen and comprehend your own myths and some common sense.
Kind Regards
Satan's Friend.
Fri Dec 23, 03:39:00 AM 2011
cafeproz said...
No Jesus fan, but most points are rather weak
Tue Jan 03, 11:19:00 AM 2012
Aquaria said...
You say that all the time on these lists, cafeproz, but it's apparent you are a fan of the emo slacker deity, or you wouldn't bother to get so upset about the lists--without providing anything substantive to refute it.
Classic christard sniveling.
Sun Jan 29, 12:21:00 PM 2012
theedster said...
This is humorous, from what I read on most blogs like this is people are more trying to convince themselves than others. Sounds like gibberish.
Keep working, keep trying you may get there, lol.
Sat Feb 11, 09:46:00 AM 2012
Steve Wells said...
It is gibberish, theedster. Pretty much everything Jesus said was gibberish. Thanks for pointing that out. lol.
Sat Feb 11, 10:30:00 AM 2012
Sean M. said...
1 Timothy 6:1 - Let all who are under a yoke as bondservants] regard their own masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be reviled.
If that was in the list, I missed it.
Fri Mar 23, 09:52:00 AM 2012
Steve Wells said...
Thanks Sean M. That's a good one.
But I can't add it to the list since Jesus didn't say it. Someone who claimed to the Paul (but wasn't) did.
Fri Mar 23, 10:38:00 AM 2012
Leonidus the Great. said...
absolutely awesome.
Tue May 01, 08:58:00 PM 2012
cloistered_cluttered_confused_orccc said...
@ Ratman
I think that you are a good person. If you are going to quote or paraphrase from the Bible please use references so that I too may follow along with your train of thought,[e.g. “I will stand upon my watch…to see what he will say…and what I shall answer when I am reproved,” (Habakkuk 2:1)] Otherwise what you say comes across like it is only your opinion--not Biblical fact.
It is a good idea to reference every idea that is not purely all of your opinion. Let me suppose that you heard a sermon from which you came to understand that “Christ wasn’t the messiah the Jews were expecting”. You need to reference this with a source [e.g. (Dr. Burdock, 1st Methodist Church, Houston, Tx, Sermon, April 8, 2012), or (Citation needed) or (Unknown).
For instance you stated: “Christ's virginal non-sexual conception.” There is only one reference to the actual conception of Jesus in Bible and it is in the Book of Luke. “…And the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee…” (Luke 1:35). Highest Powers that overshadow infer rape. And rape is sex--violent sex at that. Who had the power to rape, God? All things are possible (Matt 19:26).
Perhaps, (more likely), King Herod took sport with the maidens of his court? Could that be the interest of the despot Herod killing infants and toddlers (Matt2:16), He thought that one of the bastards he created while power raping resulted in a child that would qualify prophetically for his replacement, (Matt. 2:3).
I recommend that you view the Movie “Caligula” with Malcolm McDowell, and Peter O’Toole to understand to common power rape by Roman Empire despots of the time. Power rape is also referenced in the Cohen Film “The Dictator.”
Thu Jun 07, 10:35:00 PM 2012
Renee Parsons said...
I find this absolutely fascinating! Many of the problems with these Biblical sections are simply faith based. If one accepts, by faith, Jesus as God, then they accept that certain things must be true... ie, God is in control and made everything, so he would require us to love him, choose him, want him above every other thing on earth - family included. If indeed he is loving, with our best interests at heart, then choosing him first is not a problem... the other things are important too, so he will take care of those as well. As far as the killings, wars, and the slaying of children, these were horrible, and intended to get us to stand up and take note. In each event, there was some sinful behavior that was being punished...the death of another, for the sins of the previous. The idea that someone "innocent" (like a child) died as restitution or punishment for someone who was not (a king, a nation, a father or mother)... that is what salvation's entire basis is...Jesus was proposed to be without sin, and died for everyone else's sin so that they wouldn't have to go to hell, outer darkness, eternal punishment - whatever you want to call it.
With that said - if one lacks that faith, ie.,does not believe that Jesus is God, or indeed that there even is a God, then people are the highest being on the food chain. Thusly, any morality goes to the highest bidder. Whoever has the power and money decides what everyone will do legally, morally, and ethically. There is no black and white or right and wrong. It's all up to the one in charge... and so many ancient people groups sacrificed people, children included, participated in genocide, warred for ridiculous reasons, etc. One needs to be careful in viewing history in light of modern "sophistication." I hope you keep posting, as this is really interesting!
Thanks!
Sat Jul 21, 05:13:00 PM 2012
Mic said...
Renee, an interesting piece.
But why would god want all this love for himself, above all things? Is he so insecure, like a Hollywood starlet, that he desperately needs our
love and devotion? The picture I get is one like Marylyn Monroe, who was so narcissistic that she needed everyone to love her. As a matter of
fact if one does comes across a person like this, they are usually the most repulsive and annoying person. It seems a bit odd that the most
powerful being in the universe is nothing more than a jealous and petty individual, starved for the attention of a pathetic, weak and moronic
creature such as ourselves.
So god uses the most brutal and violent acts imaginable, just so he can get our attention? So a father or mother trying to protect an
“”innocent”” (from your piece I would derived that no-one is innocent and by extension deserve what they get) child with their heart pounding
with abject fear and despair. The parent knows he/she does not have the power to stop the atrocity. All this, just so god can get our
attention! That makes no sense! Actually it does get my attention, how can the most powerful being in the universe just stand idly by and
watch for centuries, the injustices and horrors perpetrated on the innocents, usually done in his name, and do NOTHING. Absolutely nothing!
Think about it. How many people cry out to god or a god in their hour of need and get NOTHING!
If you read your bible, morality is not one of god’s strong points, in fact if I followed god’s example, I would be a sex-obsessed,
foreskin-hatin’, female-despising, phallic-adoring, brutally indiscriminate individual with the power to punish the guilty and help the
innocent but refuse to, based on some obscure lesson I wish to teach my followers if they can work out the cryptic message, all the while, the
innocents are being torn apart.
Modern sophistication is the same as ancient sophistication, war is war, killing is killing, injustice is injustice and politics is politics.
We are not different from those who came before us which is disappointing.
Mon Jul 23, 03:39:00 PM 2012
Tom VonOxford said...
Re Mic's response to Renee:
AMEN and thank you. Why isn't this obvious even to the most oblivious and even Renee?
Tue Jul 24, 09:33:00 AM 2012
estnihil said...
"He discouraged marriage."
Eh being a fan of polyamory and being someone who doesn't think marriage as a custom actually works when people have lifespans longer than 40 years, I'm not that keen on this. But otherwise great post as always.
Tue Jul 24, 01:15:00 PM 2012
PrizeWinners said...
LOL sorry. I just stopped reading after the very first reason. I came looking for solid, reasonable arguments or actual pieces of Bible verses that say "God hates fags" or something stupid like that. All I got was that "Jesus used the word hate, so therefore he must actually, in today's definition, hate something rather than it being a comparative or hyperbolic word." If you look around the Bible for other times when the word "hate" is used especially by Jesus (e.g. "No man can serve two masters... he will hate the one and love the other or... etc.") hate is basically used in the meaning of "to love less." Nobody in their right mind actually hates one master and loves the second master while serving both of them; people who work for two bosses have preferences or more love for one boss over the other. In light of the same meaning, Jesus is basically saying that whoever loves Jesus but still loves his family more is not fit to follow him.
Makes sense? Or no?
Tue Jul 24, 02:06:00 PM 2012
prakash mv said...
very poor understanding of Bible..!!!
Thu Jul 26, 03:51:00 AM 2012
Tom VonOxford said...
To prakash mv
I presume you are telling us that you have a very poor understanding of the bible.
You should read more of what Steve Wells writes. It will help you to understand the bible with a clarity that few obtain.
Thu Jul 26, 06:16:00 AM 2012
Import Connection Auto Repair said...
Steve, I just discovered your blog yesterday and have enjoyed reading much of it. I really enjoyed the one about "how many people did God kill". I gave up on Christianity about 5 years ago after 40 years. However, I must agree with those who say you took a lot of these things about Jesus out of context. Take the first one about hating your family. In Luke 14:7 it clearly shows that Jesus was using a parable "And he put forth a parable". He makes the statement about "hating your family at the end of this parable. He then gives what seems to me to be the meaning of the parable. "14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
14:28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?" It seems pretty clear that he is advising followers that they should count the costs before following him which would most likely include being disowned by their families.I grew up in a ultra independent fundamental Baptist church and saw how they took things out of context to made the Bible say what they wanted it to and explained away all the evil deeds that were committed in the Old Testament in the name of God. I think it is important in refuting what they believe to use logic and not take thing out of context as they do.
Thu Aug 23, 02:48:00 PM 2012
moyletbic said...
Good work! Tough battle though. Christians are not easy to break. They are too afraid of life and afterlife to give up their god and bible. They have been brainwashed from birth. The threats torment their minds. Just think how peaceful this world would be if religion did not exist. Good luck,
Tue Sep 04, 05:41:00 AM 2012
phrogs.lily said...
Moyletbic - quite a generalization there. I am neither afraid of life nor concerned with afterlife. I grew up atheist more then anything, so no brainwashing there either. Turning to God and accepting Jesus - was of my own accord and for various reasons.
Mic - you wrote "Think about it. How many people cry out to god or a god in their hour of need and get NOTHING!"
I think that depends on what you expect. I don't expect things to happen the way I want them to. Sure, would it be nice - yes, but if not - I strongly believe that there is a reason. Just because God does not prevent some things from happening or does not answer the way we want Him to, does not mean He isn't working in our lives somehow.
Tue Oct 02, 05:29:00 AM 2012
Love Bomb said...
I loved this post. I think all of the fake free thinkers hiding as non Christians on this blog. I thik many believers, even the ones who say that each word of the Bible is literally true exept when it's just nonsense then it's an interpretation. That kind of thinking is so crazy-making and inconsistent. Like the most powerful force/entity in the universe couldn't speak clearly and mean what he said. It's ridiculous. I think when you pull out the direct Jeessuus quotes all Christians get panicked. He's supposed to be cool and loving but obviously he's not. He was God who became his own son to kill himself for the sins of Adam and Eve??? Crazy shit. For whoever said; well he is God so to be an egomaniacle dick is OK. So funny
Wed Nov 07, 10:34:00 PM 2012
Edenteum Norvis said...
Did you read the original scriptures in the original language?
No
Your study is incomplete and it is not founded on solid basis.
You are wrong as the Catholic Bible is wrong.
Clearly to speak , you need to learn.
Search and you will find, strong surprises.
Sun Dec 09, 02:14:00 PM 2012
Cat said...
This and all arguments, are what the Scriptures are trying to prevent when we are told to "rightly divide the Word".
To try to explain the Scriptures by the definition of words in an ordinary dictionary, is not rightly dividing the Word. It does nit take a rocket scientist to know that Jesus did not tell anyone to literally hate their parents! We are not even to hate our enemy, so why would He literally mean we are to hate our parents?! My Greek lexicon says that the word "hate" in that passage means to regard with less affection, love less, esteem less..
Anyone who is knowledgeable in the Word of God can see that this is the meaning of Luke 14:26. Atheists are so afraid that God might actually exist, that they try desperately to prove that He doesn't. And don't even try to say that statement doesn't make sense. Because it does, perfect.
Sat Jan 05, 02:11:00 AM 2013
Tom VonOxford said...
Response to Cat
I thought the bible was the infallible/inerrant (take your pick) "word of god".
You have just acknowledged that there are contradictory phrases in this perfect book.
Tell me how to interpret Matthew 13:10-15 where Jesus admit he speaks in parables in order to confuse people. Tell me how to interpret Mark 7:26-27 where Jesus refuses to help a woman from Canaan.
Sun Jan 06, 06:44:00 AM 2013
carnedes said...
Apologist rationalize that by saying that he only referred to domestic dogs, not to feral ones, as if that made a difference. And another two or three rationalizations appear at some site.
For the record,
Tue Jan 15, 02:43:00 PM 2013
pdfromwv said...
Wow, I found this site by searching "Ox Goad," and here I am!
I've studied the Bible as an unbeliever and it made no sense. I then studied it as a believer, and came to the conclusion that Jesus is God in human form.
I have little use for religion, but love God's word.
God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble. I try everyday to be more humble.
Good luck with your quest for knowledge.
Sat Jan 19, 07:20:00 AM 2013
Beautiful Girls said...
Yeah, I can say I'm God.
Deuteronomy 23:2-4 : "A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the Lord." So Jesus is a bastard and he can, then whats going on? This is so conflict. god just say shit in the bible
Wed Jan 23, 12:11:00 AM 2013
Scaughdt said...
"It's not meant to be taken literally. It means any manufacturer of dairy products." ~ The Life of Brian
Great site, my Friend! You might find the "Avant Garde Bible Study" (for skeptics, Christians & recovering Christians alike) to be pretty intriguing. Everything is well-researched & downloadable for free.
enJOY, and thanks again!
Scaughdt
http://www.mediafire.com/#b3amu2i1ga58l
Sun Mar 10, 06:23:00 AM 2013
gh0stm0n said...
Just bought your book, Steve... I really appreciate you dedicating it to me. I've lost so many friends and family to this man-made social circle called church. It's so sad when people choose this blasphemy instead of recognizing the intrisic suffering of man already present. I suppose you could even call it the natural morality of the "manifest image" ...needless to say, the Bible has truly made my life, for one, much harder than it had to be.
Just one polite criticism on #24... I think you can get the message across better without mentioning politics - keeping your message solely on Jesus' character would more likely sway your visitors. The Tea Party surely would not state the above as their modus operandi. Seperation of church and state, as Jefferson says? One argument at a time...
Again, thank you for your diligent work with this + the SAB.
Thu Apr 04, 12:54:00 PM 2013
Colin Dunlop said...
Why wont god heal amputees? The religious claim She heals absolutely everything else.
There is more grace, honesty, truth, humility, honour, WISDOM, compassion and love in one episode of Kung Fu than in twenty centuries of christianity.
The sooner this mind pestilence dies out the better for our species or they are gonna get us all killed.
Mon Apr 15, 03:07:00 PM 2013
Tony King said...
Firstly, there is no physical proof Jesus Christ ever existed. in As for all those sentences he is alleged to have said... well. Who said Jesus said all that? Any proof? Nope. Not a shred. Oh, but it's in that Bible which was written allegedly by anon Jews. LOL. In fact the Bible is the most fraudulent book of all time. It was rewritten, copied, edited, altered, added to, forged, changed, 'improved' and messed with countless times through the ages. And still people see all that Holy Babble Nonsense as the Inspired Word of God. The only thing that book inspires is a lethal virus called... Christianity.
Thu May 30, 02:45:00 AM 2013
Tom VonOxford said...
An "atta-boy" for Tony King:
Well said. I too have used the term "Holy Babble". Don't you just love it.
Hardly anyone has addressed the issue of how these "words of Jesus" were maintained with absolute integrity for at least 30 years before they were ever put to ... what: wax tablets? stone? papyrus? Word?
Really, over 36,000 words, 1599 verses uttered by Jesus, all made it perfectly intact through "oral tradition"? I think not.
Check out "The Complete Sayings of Jesus" at http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/csj/index.htm for some very interesting reading.
Thu May 30, 05:05:00 AM 2013
Bernie's blogg said...
Its really to bad you don't know what words mean. Example: When Jesus said you must hate your mother and father he was using the word "hate" meaning "love less".
I wonder how much Greek and Hebrew you really know. Be sure you know what you talk about before you drag others into a ditch.
Mon Jun 10, 03:46:00 PM 2013
Tom VonOxford said...
To Bernie,
I wasn't aware that in order to read the bible, one had to know Greek and Hebrew.
If that's what it meant, then why wasn't it translated that way? Hmm
Mon Jun 10, 06:02:00 PM 2013
Bernie's blogg said...
I did not say one had to know Greek and Hebrew to read the Bible, I said there are words in the Bible that you must know what they mean.
A man is never so blind as one that refuses to see.
Tue Jun 11, 04:45:00 AM 2013
Tom VonOxford said...
To Bernie,
"I said there are words in the Bible that you must know what they mean".
OK - so it's just "certain" words that one must know. Just which are those Greek and Hebrew words that one MUST know? Would you please list them and give their translations.
Otherwise, how will we know which words are "certain" words and which can be read without knowing Greek and Hebrew?
"A man is never so blind as one that refuses to see".
None of want to be blind - please enlighten us. I am so afraid that I have been misreading the bible all these years. Does "love" just mean "like a lot" etc?
I sure don't want to make the mistake of seeing a word like "hate" and not knowing it really means "love less".
Which by the way, doesn't begin to let Jesus off the hook. He still says you should leave your family. And what does it really mean when he says.
Please translate this verse for us:
I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
Tue Jun 11, 05:56:00 AM 2013
Bernie's blogg said...
I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
What this means is morality has always been a problem to those who are immoral. Those who have born again many times have been shunned even by family members.
In Jesus day, those who received Christ as savior were enemies even to family members.
Before I was saved, I never really understood the Word of God.
Without the Holy Spirit, you will never understand the Bible. (1 Corinthians 2:12-14)
You know, I don't think you really want to know what the Bible teaches.
Tue Jun 11, 11:57:00 AM 2013
Tom VonOxford said...
Bernie,
You have me all wrong. I really do want to know what the bible teaches. But you are telling me that I cannot trust the words I read to mean what they say. You have had to interpret everything I thought I knew.
You still haven't told me how I am to know which words have to be translated because of their Hebrew or Greek meaning and which words can be accepted at face value.
How did you ever learn how to do this? How did you learn that the verse "I am come to set a man at variance against his father" really means "morality has always been a problem to those who are immoral as you indicated?
I will never be able to do that so I guess that there is no point in my continuing to read the bible.
This will be my last post on this thread. I don't think you really know what you are talking about.
Tue Jun 11, 12:45:00 PM 2013
Paul Phillips said...
@anyone
Why is there even a hell to save us from? If you were god, would there be a hell? And furthermore, did you always know that the majority of souls would eventually go there? That's sick if you already knew that. You're a bad god.
Thu Jun 20, 05:04:00 AM 2013
smokyjames said...
I was once a mocker of Christians, a rejector of God. But then something happened. I had an encounter with Jesus Christ, not physical of course, spiritual, but it had a physical impact on my life, my family and my overall well being. A broken family was restored. I gave up drinking, drugs, and other destructive behaviors. I am happy as a Christian, proud to be a pastor, and looking forward to eternal life.
Go ahead, mock, laugh, do all the things I once did. Hopefully one day you will meet Jesus the way I did. Hopefully you won't squander your last opportunity for salvation. I truly hope that you turn to Jesus before it is everlasting too late.
Fri Jul 05, 06:18:00 PM 2013
Tom VonOxford said...
To Smokey James;
I am truly happy that something changed your life for the better.
You say it was an encounter with Jesus. Could you enlighten us all as to what it is about you that caught Jesus' eye?
There are many people, I'm thinking of 14 year old virgin girls in Africa who are raped and sold into slavery, who could use some help from Jesus.
What do they have to do to get Jesus to come and keep the hairy, heavy breathing, fat people who, because of "free will" continue to commit the most heinous atrocity possible?
Where is Jesus/God when you need it?
Fri Jul 05, 06:25:00 PM 2013
Mic said...
I was once a mocker of Atheists, a rejector of Common Sense. But then something happened. I had an encounter with truth, not physical of course, logical, but it had a physical impact on my life, my family and my overall well being. I was no longer bound to the choking, suppressive and confusing regulations/burdens of the bible and an erratic god. A potentially broken family was saved from the ravages of self-righteousness bullshit. My kids were spared from leading an unfulfilled life.I can now freely drink, never cared for drugs, and enjoy some destructive behaviors. I am now truly free and happy as a person without an 'ist' or 'ian' or 'ism', glad I am not a pastor (which I probably would have become), and looking forward to fulfilling life.
Go ahead, mock, laugh, do all the things before you miss out. Hopefully one day you will meet and understand logic and truth and be free, truly free. Hopefully you won't squander your last opportunity for freedom. I truly hope that you turn to the truth before you waste another second.
Like VonOxford, I am truly happy that you have changed your life for the better, however lots of people change their life for all sorts of reason.
I was reading about a person who was suicidal and after reading the comforting words in a Superman comic decide not to do the deed and turn their life around.
Give yourself some credit smokyjames, you had a hell of a lot more to do with your change than anyone else.
One day I woke up and prayed to a big rock, I got the same answer as when I prayed to god ...NOTHING. Now I may be undeserving, but what about those who are? They too get NOTHING and suffer immensely.
@VonOxford, well said as usual.
Sun Jul 07, 08:55:00 PM 2013
Stephen said...
"And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?" Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted".John 3:17 "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. " Try learning how to read and put things in "CONTEXT" ...without Spiritual understanding any interpretation of sacred text is meaningless due to Spiritual blindness, and this post completely verifies that. Thank you for confirming and increasing the Truth of this!
Fri Nov 01, 11:55:00 PM 2013
Tom VonOxford said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Sat Nov 02, 05:07:00 AM 2013
Tom VonOxford said...
To Stephen
The ole "out of context" excuse again. What's that? We need "spiritual understanding" in order to read the bible?
How do I obtain "spiritual understanding" if not by reading the bible.
What if god sent me a "strong delusion so that I should believe a lie" 2 Thessalonians
What then Stevie? What if the lord, from the beginning hath NOT chosen me to salvation"?
Help me escape my predestined damnation. Perhaps by reading the bible, but I need spiritual understanding to do so.
Woe is me. Whatever shall I do?
Sat Nov 02, 06:01:00 AM 2013
Tony King said...
Steve, thank you for your time and effort put in here (and elsewhere) for the evolutionary good of humanity. You do a great job...kudos. It's heartening to see the collapse of Christianity which I see everywhere with dwindling elderly church congregations, more and more atheists and a raising of general awareness. This is due primarily to the influence of the Internet thank Gwod. Religious LOLs on the Internet have done more to expose the fraudulence that is Christianity than anything. Lo, Ho, and Behold; may it continue. Whoever would have thought that such a ridiculously-stupid idea would have been so popular for so long? This silliest of ideas: A (male) deity called God creates people but they displease him so he drowns everyone except for Noah and family... (after saying DON'T KILL ANYONE!) who commit incest as they repopulate the world. THEN this mass murdering genocidal maniac called god decides to send himself (as his son) to be born to a married virgin that he has impregnated with his divine seed. This god's idea is that if he can get himself murdered by the Romans (and Jews) that will atone for the terrible heinous sin that Adam and Eve had committed (by following the advice of a talking snake that god had sent, and eating an apple) and so on blah blah gibberish gibberish. What a load of old codswallop! And to think that this rank bullshit could have captured the imaginations of so many humans for so long... Wow, us humans are a credulous, gullible, foolish lot. THANK GAWD FOR THE INTERNET!
Thu Nov 28, 03:32:00 AM 2013
Tony King said...
Oh, and while I'm at it... the Babble has 60-odd ANONYMOUS authors LOL and all of them Hebrews. (Would you really give a book with so many anon authors any credence?)
What a surprise, we have a book written by unknown Jews, all about Jews, and FOR Jews. In this Book of Lies and Gibberish, we have this 'god' of the Hebrews declaring exactly who is his Chosen Race.
WTF? a god has a fav race? Guess? Rightttttt. The ISRAELITES. So, this Hebrew racist god promptly gives Palestinian land to his favorites.
Hey wait, you can't give somebody else's land away to your favorites! Oh yes you can when are a racist, murdering, infant-killing, jealous, vindictive, bullying, sexist, misogynistic, ethnic-cleansing, plague-sending lunatic Hebrew gawd called Jehovah.
As we know, the Babble is jam-packed with bullshit gibberish. Strangely, this rubbish still holds a sort of mystical reverence in Western societies. Hell we are asked in a court to swear on the Holy Book of Lies, to tell the truth!
The Koran and the Babble... two "Holy" books that mirror each other... both full of extreme hate, atrocities, gross immoralities and full of absurdities. Gawd halp us all...
Thu Nov 28, 04:16:00 AM 2013
Tom VonOxford said...
To Tony King,
I agree 100% with EVERYTHING you say.
Help me with what to say to my 35 year old son who says that if it weren't for his "relationship with Jesus", he would be profoundly depressed. And, he does have good reason to be depressed, believe me, but he is not.
I just decided to shut up about all that I, like you, know.
Help me.
Thu Nov 28, 06:55:00 AM 2013
Tony King said...
Tom, I feel for you, yes. I think you should encourage his Jesus thing, so long as it makes him feel good. Billions of deludeds do this every day with ... various characters.
If if helps, where's the worry? A loved one who has contracted the dread christian virus cannot be swayed by logic and reason, no matter what. (I have some Jehovah Witless relatives, so I know this first hand!)
The psycho aspect of this is that they could well be worshipping Wiley E Coyote and Mickey Mouse, with the Road Runner as the Bad Guy and feeling good, holy and extremely righteous about that. (Just as they do about Jeebus and Jehoover now.)
If you read the transcript of the Dover Trial, a daughter (atheist) and her elderly Dad (christian) come to a parting of the ways. He gives us a clue as to how this dread christian virus works when he says words to the effect that HE WILL BE SEEING LOVED ONES AGAIN soon IN HEAVEN. There is one of their big selling points...
You might try always seeing your son as happy and free of depression, and free of religious delusion, without ever saying anything to him. This can help.
Best of luck, Tom...
Thu Nov 28, 02:50:00 PM 2013
Tony King said...
Tom, Here is some heavy-duty FUN therapy... which never ceases to make me ... LARF.
http://youtu.be/me2H7Ja93Wg
Thu Nov 28, 04:26:00 PM 2013
Tony King said...
The link I put there yesterday is the best sermon evah!
Fri Nov 29, 04:00:00 PM 2013
Tom VonOxford said...
Tony,
It's funnier without the farts. Their over the top words, facial expressions, shit-eating-grins, et. al. are too funny to be interrupted by juvenile bathroom humor.
Fri Nov 29, 05:52:00 PM 2013
Tony King said...
Juvenile bathroom humor FARTS fit most beautifully and neatly with BABBLE quotes and shit-eating TV evangelists like Ernst... LOL
Sat Nov 30, 12:12:00 AM 2013
Tony King said...
Professor Gerard Bradley of Notre Dame is an Inquisition Denier for his beloved Catholic Church. WTF? I sent him Arthur Maricle's fine Inq expose, as well as this...
"I do further promise and declare, that I will, when opportunity presents, make and wage relentless war, secretly or openly, against all heretics, Protestants and Liberals, as I am directed to do and to extirpate and exterminate them from the face of the whole earth, and that I will spare neither sex, age nor condition and that I will hang, waste, boil, flay, strangle and bury alive these infamous heretics; rip up the stomachs and wombs of their women and crush their infants' heads against the wall, in order to annihilate forever their execrable race."— Pope Paul III, 1576
Sun Dec 08, 01:31:00 PM 2013
The Stranger said...
What a ridiculous and hilarious post! You are just as ignorant and misguided as the fundamentalists, which is no easy feat!! Religious truth is expressed in metaphor not literal history. All religious metaphor is a reflection of the time and place of the creation of the mythology. Your analysis proves a fundamental misunderstanding of what the gospels are, allegorical teaching tools. You are being just as much of a literalist as the new world creationists! The posts about Horus and Attis etc are also misunderstandings about the nature of mythology. The reason the same myths appear in multiple ancient cultures is because they are metaphors for natural phenomenon or personal mystical experiences which trancend time and place. The same myths being expressed in different forms strengthens the message, it doesn't disprove it. The Christ allegory is about the cyclical process of birth, death, and rebirth that has happened since forever. It is about transformation, self awareness, compassion and love. It's not about some man being literally born of a virgin, tortured, crucified and literally resurrected. Despite popular opinion, popular culture does not define religious truth. Spiritual truth is inherent in nature, and the rest is a synthesis of ancient culture, philosophy, and religion. The books are clearly metaphorical and should be understood through the paradigm of an ancient world view. Reading them literally and without historical context is just as ignorant for fundamentalists as it is for atheists. Thanks for the laugh though.
Mon Mar 10, 07:58:00 PM 2014
Tom VonOxford said...
To "The Stranger",
No "Christian" would agree with you re:"...books are clearly metaphorical and should be understood through the paradigm of an ancient world view."
I agree with you but you and I are about the only two that believe that. Most people who read the bible believe from 50 to 100% of the nonsense it contains; literally.
Mon Mar 10, 08:53:00 PM 2014
The Stranger said...
"Mythology may, in a real sense, be defined as other peoples religion. And religion may, in a sense, be understood as a popular misunderstanding of mythology."
- Joseph Campbell
Mon Mar 10, 09:36:00 PM 2014
The Stranger said...
Side note, I know plenty of Christians who are not fundamentalists and do not view the bible as literal or historical. Myself included.
Mon Mar 10, 09:41:00 PM 2014
Tony King said...
Dear The Stranger, I see you liked my irreverent posts. LOL. I also see you are a closet Christian who loves his absurd allegories and Myths by the bucketload. How amazing that you are just another seriously-deluded faith, when you speak of the Gospels containing religious truth. What religious truth? Jesus probably never existed and was very likely invented by the same anonymous Sand People who made up all that gibberish in the Bible: the Hebrews. The idiotic teachings of Jesus such as love your enemies, turn the other cheek, give all your stuff away to the poor, render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's etc, are not taken seriously by anyone with common sense these days because they are just plain silly. Like you. It is obvious that was a ploy to try to get Jews to behave better for the invaders, the Romans of the day. Of course this pussy Jesus was not the Jew Messiah. Love your (hated Roman Invader) enemies indeed!
Tue Apr 15, 05:00:00 AM 2014
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16 November 20101 Nephi 18: Nephi discovers America
This is the chapter you've all been waiting for. The exciting climax to First Book of Nephi in which Nephi discovers America.
It begins with God going over with Nephi his plans for the ship's construction, showing him (from time to time) how to work timbers of curious workmanship.
And it came to pass that ... we did work timbers of curious workmanship. And the Lord did show me from time to time after what manner I should work the timbers of the ship. 1 Nephi 18:1
Nephi explains (several times in the same verse) that he didn't work the timbers after the manner of men, but in the manner that God showed him.
Now I, Nephi, did not work the timbers after the manner which was learned by men, neither did I build the ship after the manner of men; but I did build it after the manner which the Lord had shown unto me; wherefore, it was not after the manner of men. 1 Nephi 18:2
The ship took less than two verses to build and by all accounts it turned out exceedingly fine.
And it came to pass that after I had finished the ship, according to the word of the Lord, my brethren beheld that it was good, and that the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine; wherefore, they did humble themselves again before the Lord. 1 Nephi 18:4
When it was finished, they gathered up their stuff and boarded their unnamed ship, every one according to his age.
And it came to pass that the voice of the Lord came unto my father, that we should arise and go down into the ship. And it came to pass that on the morrow, after we had prepared all things, much fruits and meat from the wilderness, and honey in abundance, and provisions according to that which the Lord had commanded us, we did go down into the ship, with all our loading and our seeds, and whatsoever thing we had brought with us, every one according to his age; wherefore, we did all go down into the ship, with our wives and our children. 1 Nephi 18:5-6
After they all got on board, they sailed off toward the promised land (America in BoM-speak).
And it came to pass after we had all gone down into the ship, and had taken with us our provisions and things which had been commanded us, we did put forth into the sea and were driven forth before the wind towards the promised land. 1 Nephi 18:8
And then, after the space of many days, there was mutiny on the nameless ship. (Nephi didn't keep much of a log. Everything happens "after a space of many days.") Nephi's brothers, Ishmael's sons, and all their wives began to merrily dance, sing, and speak with exceeding rudeness.
And after we had been driven forth before the wind for the space of many days, behold, my brethren and the sons of Ishmael and also their wives began to make themselves merry, insomuch that they began to dance, and to sing, and to speak with much rudeness, yea, even that they did forget by what power they had been brought thither; yea, they were lifted up unto exceeding rudeness. 1 Nephi 18:9
So he, Nephi, began to fear exceedingly that God would drown them all for dancing, singing, and carrying on like that. So he spoke to them with much soberness. But they all said in unison, "Fuck off, little brother."
And I, Nephi, began to fear exceedingly lest the Lord should be angry with us, and smite us because of our iniquity, that we should be swallowed up in the depths of the sea; wherefore, I, Nephi, began to speak to them with much soberness; but behold they were angry with me, saying: We will not that our younger brother shall be a ruler over us. 1 Nephi 18:10
Finally, Laman and Lemuel got so sick of Nephi's pompous ass that they tied him up again (See 1 Nephi 7:16).
And it came to pass that Laman and Lemuel did take me and bind me with cords, and they did treat me with much harshness; nevertheless, the Lord did suffer it that he might show forth his power, unto the fulfilling of his word which he had spoken concerning the wicked. 1 Nephi 18:11
But then the magic compass that told them how to get to the Promised Land stopped working.
And it came to pass that after they had bound me insomuch that I could not move, the compass, which had been prepared of the Lord, did cease to work. 1 Nephi 18:12
So they didn't know which way to steer. And then a great and terrible tempest came up for the space of three days. Everyone was exceedingly frightened. Still, they didn't untie Nephi.
Wherefore, they knew not whither they should steer the ship, insomuch that there arose a great storm, yea, a great and terrible tempest, and we were driven back upon the waters for the space of three days; and they began to be frightened exceedingly lest they should be drowned in the sea; nevertheless they did not loose me. 1 Nephi 18:13
The tempest became exceedingly sore on the fourth day.
And on the fourth day, which we had been driven back, the tempest began to be exceedingly sore. 1 Nephi 18:14
And just when they were about to be swallowed up in the depths of the sea, they untied Nephi, whose wrists and ankles had swollen exceedingly and great was the soreness thereof.
And it came to pass that we were about to be swallowed up in the depths of the sea. And after we had been driven back upon the waters for the space of four days, my brethren began to see that the judgments of God were upon them, and that they must perish save that they should repent of their iniquities; wherefore, they came unto me, and loosed the bands which were upon my wrist, and behold they had swollen exceedingly; and also mine ankles were much swollen, and great was the soreness thereof. 1 Nephi 18:15
Still, Nephi didn't murmur against the Lord but praised him all day long.
Nevertheless, I did look unto my God, and I did praise him all the day long; and I did not murmur against the Lord because of mine afflictions. 1 Nephi 18:16
Nephi's dad said many things to the mutineers, but they ignored him. The rude behavior of their children sickened Lehi and his wife Sariah. (They were "stricken in years" and about to die even though they just had a couple of baby boys a few verses ago. See 1 Nephi 18:7)
Now my father, Lehi, had said many things unto them, and also unto the sons of Ishmael; but, behold, they did breathe out much threatenings against anyone that should speak for me; and my parents being stricken in years, and having suffered much grief because of their children, they were brought down, yea, even upon their sick-beds. Because of their grief and much sorrow, and the iniquity of my brethren, they were brought near even to be carried out of this time to meet their God; yea, their grey hairs were about to be brought down to lie low in the dust; yea, even they were near to be cast with sorrow into a watery grave. 1 Nephi 18:17-18
Poor little Jacob and Joseph were in need of much nourishment (Was Sariah still breastfeeding them?) and Nephi's nameless wife cried and prayed, along with Nephi's nameless children.
And Jacob and Joseph also, being young, having need of much nourishment, were grieved because of the afflictions of their mother; and also my wife with her tears and prayers, and also my children, did not soften the hearts of my brethren that they would loose me. 1 Nephi 18:19
After Nephi got loose, he fixed the broken compass and prayed to the Lord, which stopped the storm and there was a great calm.
And it came to pass after they had loosed me, behold, I took the compass, and it did work whither I desired it. And it came to pass that I prayed unto the Lord; and after I had prayed the winds did cease, and the storm did cease, and there was a great calm. 1 Nephi 18:21
I guess the calm didn't last forever, though, because the ship began to sail again toward the promised land.
And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did guide the ship, that we sailed again towards the promised land. 1 Nephi 18:22
And after the space of many days, they arrive in the promised land.
And it came to pass that after we had sailed for the space of many days we did arrive at the promised land; and we went forth upon the land, and did pitch our tents; and we did call it the promised land. 1 Nephi 18:23
After arriving, they began to plant the seeds that they brought with them.
And it came to pass that we did begin to till the earth, and we began to plant seeds; yea, we did put all our seeds into the earth, which we had brought from the land of Jerusalem. And it came to pass that they did grow exceedingly; wherefore, we were blessed in abundance. 1 Nephi 18:24
Nephi found cows, horses, oxen, and asses when he arrived in the New World in 590 BCE. (None of these domesticated animals existed in North America before the Europeans brought them over 2000 years later.)
And it came to pass that we did find upon the land of promise, as we journeyed in the wilderness, that there were beasts in the forests of every kind, both the cow and the ox, and the ass and the horse, and the goat and the wild goat, and all manner of wild animals, which were for the use of men. 1 Nephi 18:25a
And right off the bat, they found all manner of gold, silver, and copper.
And we did find all manner of ore, both of gold, and of silver, and of copper. 1 Nephi 18:25b
And that, girls and boys, is how America was discovered.
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Posted by Steve Wells at 11/16/2010 05:51:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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7 comments:
Enrico S said...
Yah know, when you present it like that you can't help but laugh! Holy crap, Mr. Smith was no Stephen King was he?
Tue Nov 16, 06:01:00 PM 2010
reboho said...
Can't believe grown people can read this with a straight face. The King James pretensions just start me giggling every time I read something like this. Joseph Smith was the L. Ron Hubbard of his day. And St. Paul was the Joseph Smith of his day.
Wed Nov 17, 05:41:00 AM 2010
zickeyzouse said...
I freakin' love these posts. Keep em coming.
Wed Nov 17, 08:58:00 AM 2010
twillight said...
On the part with the many exceedingly because of the many exceedingly I exceedingly laughed up :D
Wed Nov 17, 01:35:00 PM 2010
Darren Delgado said...
There's nothing worse than a sore tempest.
Sat Nov 20, 06:46:00 AM 2010
Fernando said...
Holy SHIT !!!!!
Help, I cannot stop laughing LOOOOOLLLLLLL
Terrific !!!!!!!
Wed Nov 24, 04:51:00 PM 2010
nazani said...
Why didn't their god show them how to form the past tenses of verbs?
Mon Dec 13, 10:41:00 AM 2010
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12 November 2010Quran 2:243-286 -- Zombie soldiers, Rip Van Winkle, bird talk, and other silly stories
Allah begins this section by asking Muhammad if he'd heard the story about the resurrected soldiers. You know, the one where back in the day there were thousands of soldiers that Allah told to die and then after they died he raised them from the dead. Yeah that one.
Bethink thee (O Muhammad) of those of old, who went forth from their habitations in their thousands, fearing death, and Allah said unto them: Die; and then He brought them back to life. 2:243
They even made a movie about it.
Next Allah tells us all to fight in the way of Allah.
Fight in the way of Allah. 2:244
And asks us for a loan, promising to pay us back with interest. Allah straightens and enlarges whatever is bent or small.
Who is it that will lend unto Allah a goodly loan, so that He may give it increase manifold? Allah straiteneth and enlargeth. 2:245
Then Allah starts with the Bible stories. And, as usual, he gets them all wrong. First he has angels carrying the ark.
Their Prophet said unto them: Lo! Allah hath raised up Saul to be a king for you. ... And their Prophet said unto them: Lo! the token of his kingdom is that there shall come unto you the ark ... the angels bearing it. Lo! herein shall be a token for you if (in truth) ye are believers. 2:247-8
And then he confuses Saul with Gideon when telling the stupid dog-lapping story of Judges 7:5-7.
And when Saul set out with the army, he said: Lo! Allah will try you by (the ordeal of) a river. Whosoever therefore drinketh thereof he is not of me, and whosoever tasteth it not he is of me, save him who taketh (thereof) in the hollow of his hand. But they drank thereof, all save a few of them. And after he had crossed (the river), he and those who believed with him, they said: We have no power this day against Goliath and his hosts. But those who knew that they would meet Allah exclaimed: How many a little company hath overcome a mighty host by Allah's leave! 2:249
And, of course, every twenty verses or so, he throws in something like this.
The disbelievers, they are the wrong-doers. 2:254
Then Allah says something nice for a change.
There is no compulsion in religion. 2:256
But in the next verse he ruins it by saying he'll torture non-Muslims forever after they die. There's no compulsion in religion, but you'll be tortured forever if you don't accept the right religion.
As for those who disbelieve, their patrons are false deities. They bring them out of light into darkness. Such are rightful owners of the Fire. They will abide therein. 2:257
Next Abraham argues with a disbeliever by saying, "God makes the sun rise in the east. Make it rise in the west." Which totally abashed the disbeliever. But the disbeliever should have said, "I make the sun rise in the east. Ask Allah to make it rise in the west." That would have abashed Abraham and Allah.
Bethink thee of him who had an argument with Abraham about his Lord, because Allah had given him the kingdom; how, when Abraham said: My Lord is He Who giveth life and causeth death, he answered: I give life and cause death. Abraham said: Lo! Allah causeth the sun to rise in the East, so do thou cause it to come up from the West. Thus was the disbeliever abashed. And Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk. 2:258
Then Allah tells us about a guy who had been dead for 100 years that he brought back to life. That's even cooler than the Rip Van Winkle story.
Or (bethink thee of) the like of him who, passing by a township which had fallen into utter ruin, exclaimed: How shall Allah give this township life after its death ? And Allah made him die a hundred years, then brought him back to life. He said: How long hast thou tarried ? (The man) said: I have tarried a day or part of a day. (He) said: Nay, but thou hast tarried for a hundred years. Just look at thy food and drink which have not rotted! Look at thine ass! And, that We may make thee a token unto mankind, look at the bones, how We adjust them and then cover them with flesh! 2:259
But Abraham, even after hearing all of Allah's tall tales, still wasn't sure he believed. So Allah told him to put four birds on a hill and then call to them. (Here birdie, birdie!) Then when the birds come, you'll believe. Allah is mighty, wise, idiotic.
And when Abraham said (unto his Lord): My Lord! Show me how Thou givest life to the dead, He said: Dost thou not believe ? Abraham said: Yea, but (I ask) in order that my heart may be at ease. (His Lord) said: Take four of the birds and cause them to incline unto thee, then place a part of them on each hill, then call them, they will come to thee in haste, and know that Allah is Mighty, Wise. 2:260
And now it's time for Allah to say something nasty again about disbelievers.
Allah guideth not the disbelieving folk. 2:264
The next 20 or so verses are too boring to comment on. But in verse 282, Allah tells us how much he thinks a woman is worth -- one half of a man.
And call two witness from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not at hand, then a man and two women. 2:282
And we finally come to an end of the longest surah in the Quran, where Allah asks himself (or somebody else) to "give us victory over the disbelieving folk."
Give us victory over the disbelieving folk. 2:286
Good luck with that, Allah.
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Posted by Steve Wells at 11/12/2010 06:20:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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The Wise Fool said...
"Allah straiteneth and enlargeth."
Holy crap, Allah is better than Viagra! (Sorry, I couldn't resist.)
Fri Nov 12, 07:02:00 PM 2010
wentworth said...
okay, so the koran is a mish mash of jibberish. but, as i read your blog i feel a sense on unease. of course, it is easy to point out this nonsense, but in a deeper cultural sense maybe it made sense. for instance, in your last post, all the stuff about unclean women, well maybe in the desert he was just trying to promte some cleanliness, not writing about it in today's sanitized society. so, i suggest you try to do more than just recite the stupidities of it all but now move to gain a deeper grounding in the culture and thoughts of the times. as an example, i've read that muhammed was very progressive FOR HIS TIME on the rights of women. Putting aside that he was likely a narcissistic schizo child molester of a power cult, shouldn't he get credit for that? in a like minded vein, you noted it was with humor that you were saying "Paul started it all" in your last post, but can yousay anything damaging about Jesus? I don't think so, he simply preached love and compassion. What I'm getting at is that your blog seems to be a need to prove how clever you are, and I think you can do better than that.
Sat Nov 13, 05:39:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
I understand your concern, wentworth. And I, at least somewhat, agree with you. It's easy (and fun) to make fun of the Quran, Bible, and Book of Mormon; it's much harder to find something good to say about them. And if it wasn't that several billion people (pretend to) base their most important beliefs upon these books, I'd have nothing to say about them at all.
But you give Jesus way too much credit, wentworth. Jesus did a lot more than preach love and compassion. He said, for example, that you must hate your father, mother, wife, children, brothers, sisters, and yourself in order to be his disciple (Luke 14:26) -- along with many other nasty things that I'll get to someday if I ever blog the New Testament.
So I'm not interested in trying to find something nice to say about the terrible trinity (Bible, Quran, and Book of Mormon). I'll point the nice stuff out when I can find something nice, and I'll do the same with the nasty. But I won't pretend that the nasty is nice if you look at it from the "deeper grounding in the culture and thoughts of the times." Yes the cultures at the times of Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, and Joseph Smith were much nastier than today's. That's why we shouldn't base our beliefs upon books that were supposedly revealed by God to people living in those cultures.
It's time to stop making excuses for the inexcusable, wentworth. No matter how nasty it might sound.
Sat Nov 13, 08:52:00 AM 2010
wentworth said...
Steve- with all due respect, I'm not saying you should try to find something nice to say, I'm saying that what is said can be read in a much deeper cultural context. it still may be ridiculous, but it is much more interesting t know why it was said at the tiime it was written as opposed to just pointing out how ridiculous it is today. As for the statement regarding Christ, this is a perfect example. In the context he was, most christians feel, not talking itterally to leave one's family but spiritually to rise above the earthly emothions and strive for something greater. I challenge you to find something really damaging about Jesus - I don't thnk you can, which may prove that he is, in fact appreciably different from the pedophile Muhammed or the other crazies.
Sat Nov 13, 12:59:00 PM 2010
Bukko Canukko said...
It's always nice to see how other faiths' holy books are just as gibbering as Christianity's. I tried to read the Koran a couple of times, but it was so maundering that I had to put it down in boredom. No special offense meant to Muslims -- I regard them with the same hilarity as I do any believers in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.
Sat Nov 13, 02:16:00 PM 2010
RsD said...
Wentworth,
Let me know what translation of the Bible you have that says what you are claiming that it does. Any ones I've come across mention WAY too many specific family members to support your garbage, make-myself-feel-better, I've-probably-never-even-really-read-the-Bible translation.
I guess what I'm saying, with all due respect, read your own "holy" book.
Sat Nov 13, 03:46:00 PM 2010
RsD said...
Also, here's something damaging about Jesus. There is nothing about his mythology that wasn't taken from mythologies before him.
Sat Nov 13, 03:49:00 PM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Wentworth,
If my posts about the Quran don’t interest you, don’t read them. I’m just trying to point out what the Quran actually says; I’ll leave it to others to explain why it says what it says (and why it doesn’t actually mean what it says).
But I absolutely love your response to Luke 14:26. Jesus misspoke (or was misquoted). He didn’t mean what he said. In fact, he meant precisely the opposite of what he actually said.
Here’s what Jesus said: “If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.”
But that’s not what he meant. Here’s what he meant: “If any man come to me, and love not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.”
If anyone else said that you had to hate yourself and your family in order to be a follower, that person would be considered to be both egotistic and insane. Jesus does that and everyone ignores it, covers it up, or denies it. Jesus says you must hate your family to be his disciple. Do you hate your family, wentworth?
Sat Nov 13, 04:31:00 PM 2010
Robert said...
How much do you think a woman is mworth?
Sat Nov 13, 08:24:00 PM 2010
Anders said...
"in your last post, all the stuff about unclean women, well maybe in the desert he was just trying to promte some cleanliness"
I've heard that argument as an attempt to justify kosher and halal. Usually with reference to things like salmonella and other diseases those people - even with the help of an active god - couldn't cure.
But women??? Are you seriously saying it should be read as "don't touch that woman, you don't know where she's been?" and that this ever made sense from any perspective, cultural, medical or psychological?
Dear me
Sun Nov 14, 10:02:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Robert,
How much do you think a woman is mworth?
Twice as much as Allah implies in 2:282.
Sun Nov 14, 10:15:00 AM 2010
wentworth said...
Most scholarly commentary says the translation of the word hate from the original greek means "love less than" and further that this was the understanding in Jewish culture. Thus, my point is simply that the word as translated into english may not have the same meaning we use it for. if any of you have studied foreign languages (as I'm sure you have)you know that some languages have phrases andexpressions that can never be meaningfully translated into english. You seem to take a joy in having an absolutist belief in your correctness that jesus was mouthing gibberish but not basing your statements on deep thought. The great irony is that the fun you make of others for believing this stuff reflects your own intellectual poverty when you are so strident in your own pride and self-satisfaction. What are you scared of Steve? Finding out that you are not God and that Jesus is your savior? This seems such a rigid outlook on life. of course it is fine and admirable for you to point out the idiocy of much of religiou teachings, but my point is still valid - you can do better. You seem really smart, so I guess I just would like to see you push yourself futher. That said, I agree with your points on he pedophile Muhammed.
Sun Nov 14, 11:00:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Most scholarly commentary says the translation of the word hate from the original greek means "love less than …
That’s nice. Then when Jesus used the same word “miseo” in these verses what he really meant to say was “love less than.”
"Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you ... for the Son of man's sake." Luke 6:22
"But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you." Luke 6:27
"The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil." John 7:7
"If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you." John 15:18
"He that hateth me hateth my Father also." John 15:23
And when 1 John talks about “hating” your brother (using the same word “miseo” that Jesus used in Luke 14:26) he really meant “love less than.”
"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." 1 John 3:15
Thanks for clearing all that up, wentworth. Now I can get back to my strident pride, self-satisfaction, intellectual poverty, and absolutist belief that I am God so that I can refuse to accept Jesus as my savior.
By the way, wentworth, how old do you think Lot’s virgin daughters were when that just and righteous man had sexual intercourse with them? Do you think Lot was more just and righteous than “the pedophile” Muhammad?
Sun Nov 14, 01:41:00 PM 2010
RsD said...
Wentworth, if your alleged inerrant word of your alleged god can't hold up to a little translating, then what value can its fairy tales really have?
Also your implication that 'hate' is a word that doesn't translate rings pretty hollow.
If you were half as smart and aware as you are currently pretending to be you would be able to figure out that the EXACT same logic you are using to determine that every "holy" book, minus one, equally proves that yours is just as much full of nonsense as the rest.
Sun Nov 14, 04:28:00 PM 2010
wentworth said...
it is interesting the defensiveness to which you seem to react to my comments; to me your stridancy is little different frm that of the fanatics, just at the other end f the spectrum. Christians often have bible study. The reason for this is that the bible is meant to be studied. If you buy a cholarly and reputable commentary on the bible, such as Oxford's, you will see begin to understand that language exists in context and is subject to distortion. Many Christians learn greek or have a dual greek english bible because this assists the process. Steve, i have no doubt that a few years from now you will accept Christ as your savior for the only reason that you seem really smart so I think the truth will become clear to you once you sit down and study. I suggest you join a bible group and tune into Joel Osteen on tv, who is I think the best preacher there is today. I also recomment Charles Stanley. Oh, as to your quesiton about Lot, there is a reason there is an Old Testament and a New Testament. Jesus is about salvation and peace and love; that Muhammed was a pedophile has nothing to do with Lot, who was not saved by Christ.
Mon Nov 15, 04:56:00 AM 2010
wentworth said...
Steve, just FYI, this is the translation of Luke 26 -14 from the new Living Translation Bibe, a widely used translation among mainstream christians: "If you want to bemy disciple, you must hate everyone else by comparison..." what jesus is saying is that the world will always lead people astray, and Christ (God) must be foremost in one's life to be a victor. Steve, I'd really love to hear your thoughts on Joel osteen, check your tv listings and watch a couple of shows and let me know what you think. BTW, further to Lot, he was raped by his daughters; Muhammed raped a six year old girl. i think there's a difference. Finally, I think you have a great blog and do a real service raising these important questions.
Mon Nov 15, 05:34:00 AM 2010
wentworth said...
As to RsD- I feel you carry a lot of pain which leads to your defensive posture. christ loves you. Watch a couple of episodes of Joel psteen and let me know what you think.
Mon Nov 15, 05:36:00 AM 2010
RsD said...
I have watched him on more than one occasion and I think that Joel Osteen can not string two sentences together without squinting or talking with his eyes closed.
There is SIGNIFICANT scientific studies that tie this behavior to those who are openly lying and hoping to avoid eye contact with those he is lying to.
Your inability to even capitalize the word Christ indicates that you are also aware that he is imaginary and feel bad about lying about/for him.
Wentworth, have you ever had sex? It tends to wake a person up. Why did Lot not stop his daughters from "raping" him?
And, no, I am not angry. In fact, I get amused whenever religious people of any strip thrash the nonsense in someone else's book of fables while doing logical tap dances in order to try and defend theirs. Dance away.
Mon Nov 15, 07:42:00 AM 2010
trj said...
wentworth, one can simply look at one particular aspect of the overall theme Jesus preaches: per default everybody is going to hell.
Everyone who doesn't believe in Jesus, which would be about three quarters of Earth's population - billions of people - will be going to Hell according to NT.
I'd argue that no offense justifies eternal torture, and especially not when the offense can best be described as a minor infraction - not believing in Jesus as a divine savior. That he would be willing to throw people into hell for things like this reveals a petty, sadistic side of Jesus (which is actually in keeping with how God often appears in OT).
Mon Nov 15, 08:10:00 AM 2010
twillight said...
Seems this was the "day of wentworth" :D (one of Lovecraft's wiritings the pun points)
Here is some things that "damage" Mr. J.:
- promoting hatred
- advocating self-mutilation
- hypocracy (do as I say, not say what I do)
- disadvocating sex
- advocating being a beggar
and a lot of other things what you can find in the Bible when you finally read it.
@trj
There is no "going to Hell" thing in the New Covenant (it is NOT testament actually). There is a going to the Lake of Fire thing (what is total destruction), but no ethernal punishment (at least how I see that thing).
Wed Nov 17, 01:24:00 PM 2010
trj said...
@twilight:
NT usually mentions a lake of fire, but there's at least one specific use of the word "Hell" in Mark, and he uses the two interchangeably.
What's more, the fire in this lake of fire is usually described as everlasting - which to me is clearly synonymous with eternal punishment by torture. An everlasting lake of fire definitely sounds like the archetypal definition of Hell to me.
See for example:
- Mark 9:45
- Matt. 18:8
- Matt. 25:31-46
- 2 Thes. 1:8-9
Wed Nov 17, 05:30:00 PM 2010
twillight said...
@trj
The Fire is everlasting, but not the Punishment.
Thu Nov 18, 03:09:00 AM 2010
trj said...
@twilight:
Well, we can't really tell from the Bible. It's rather ambiguous as to what exactly constitutes the everlasting punishment Jesus promises us. Is it:
a) everlasting torture in the lake of fire, or
b) death, which is everlasting but without torture (though with an initial finite amount of torture in the lake of fire before you die).
How you interpret the verses in question is probably mostly decided by whichever Christian doctrine you choose to subscribe to.
If one goes for option b, I have to wonder why the fire must be everlasting as Jesus/God would have no more need for it once Judgement day has passed and the last sinners are dead.
Thu Nov 18, 08:44:00 AM 2010
twillight said...
@trj
My interpretation is, that the Lake of Fire is the place of the Second Death. The First Death is the Death of the Body, the Second Death is the Death of the Soul (or specific ideas).
Those who end up there get annihilated.
On the contrary those who get in Heaven, will be eternal slaves of Jealous.
The Fire (and it's smoke) is everlasting to be a memorystone/pillar/whatever to those who will reside in the Coming Kingdom. It will be kept as a reminder, a warning.
(this is actually my idea after the reading)
Fri Nov 19, 12:52:00 AM 2010
Onslaught Six said...
Hello! I'd just like to point out that "Zombie Soldiers" was not actually any kind of big movie. In fact, it was a really small-scale movie put together by a handful of guys and it (honestly) wasn't very good. It also had nothing to do with religion.
The guy who filmed it (my friend) and the guy who wrote and starred in it kind of had a falling out, and now the film isn't really available anywhere. But I did the music for it and have the soundtrack available for download!
http://onslaughtsix.bandcamp.com/album/zombie-soldiers-ost
Wed May 11, 08:24:00 AM 2011
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11 November 2010Something Christians, Jews, and Muslims can agree on: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
As you may have heard, Michelle Obama ran into trouble Tuesday while visiting Indonesia. She shook hands with a man (actually several of them) while passing through a receiving line that greeted the president and the first lady after their arrival in Jakarta.
Here's a safe for work (unless you're in Indonesia maybe) but shocking video of the event.
So what's wrong with shaking hands with a woman, you ask?
Well nothing, unless you're a Christian, Jewish, or Muslim man. You see, it is something that all of the Great Abrahamic Faiths agree on: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
Let's start with Christianity. Can a Christian man touch a woman?
Well, here's what the guy that started it all said about it.
It is good for a man not to touch a woman. 1 Corinthians 7:1
And Paul meant what he said here, though he knew that some men just couldn't control themselves. His advice to such moral weaklings was to go ahead and get married (7:2). Still, Paul would prefer that every man be like he was: unmarried and untouched by women (7:7). And he recommended that even married people abstain from sex. (Jesus is coming soon so there's no time for sex. 7:29)
How about Jews? Is it OK for a Jewish man to touch a woman?
The question is answered in Leviticus 15.
And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even. And every thing that she lieth upon in her separation shall be unclean: every thing also that she sitteth upon shall be unclean. And whosoever toucheth her bed shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even. And whosoever toucheth any thing that she sat upon shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even. And if it be on her bed, or on any thing whereon she sitteth, when he toucheth it, he shall be unclean until the even. .. But if she be cleansed of her issue, then she shall number to herself seven days, and after that she shall be clean. And on the eighth day she shall take unto her two turtles, or two young pigeons, and bring them unto the priest, to the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And the priest shall offer the one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering; and the priest shall make an atonement for her before the LORD for the issue of her uncleanness. Leviticus 15:19-30
What God is trying to say here is this: menstruating women are unclean and anyone that touches them is also unclean. They're unclean as soon as they begin to menstruate and for at least seven days after that. The only way they can ever become clean again is to kill two pigeons or "turtles" (the KJV "turtles" are probably turtle doves) as sin and burnt offerings. Without the dead burned birds, though, a women who has once menstruated is unclean forever.
So a man shouldn't touch any woman between puberty and menopause unless he knows for sure that the proper burnt and sin offerings have been made after her last menstrual period. Since so few women sacrifice pigeons on the eighth day of their menstrual cycle anymore, all women of child-bearing age must be treated as unclean and, therefore, untouchable.
And what about Muslims? Can a Muslim man touch a woman?
Well, here is the only verse in the Quran that seems to address this question.
O ye who believe! When ye rise up for prayer, wash you faces, and your hands up to the elbows, and lightly rub your heads and (wash) your feet up to the ankles. And if ye are unclean, purify yourselves. And if ye are sick or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have had contact with women, and ye find not water, then go to clean, high ground and rub your faces and your hands with some of it. Allah would not place a burden on you, but He would purify you and would perfect His grace upon you, that ye may give thanks. Quran 5:6
So women are unclean and it's better not to touch them. But if you do touch a woman and you can't find any water to clean up with, just rub some dirt on yourself. That'll do it.
But Muhammad did, according to the hadith, address shaking hands with women. Here's what he supposedly said.
I do not shake hands with women.
It is better for you to be stabbed in the head with an iron needle than to touch the hand of a woman who is to permissible to you.
So Christians, Jews, and Muslims agree: It is better for a man not to touch a woman. (And maybe someone should find an iron needle for that smiling Indonesian minister.)
Posted by Steve Wells at 11/11/2010 02:19:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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6 comments:
Jane said...
I like how these things are incredibly vague some of the time, and ridiculously detailed the rest of the time.
So tell us...does it have to be an iron needle? Is it a bit better than being stabbed in the head with a copper needle then, maybe? Can you even get copper needles? Anyway...
Thu Nov 11, 03:48:00 PM 2010
uzza said...
Let's see now...
you can't touch a woman, + you can't lie with a man as with a woman, = you can't lie with a man without touching him, ...
What are they trying to say?
Thu Nov 11, 06:59:00 PM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Yeah it is confusing, isn't it uzza? But I think all three sources are saying the same thing from different perspectives.
Paul is anti-sex and anti-marriage. Jesus is coming back any day now, so just stay away from women. (If you can anyway. If not, WTF go ahead and marry.)
The OT God just hates women and is disgusted by menstruation. So don't get anywhere near them while that's happening.
And Muhammad doesn't want anyone looking at or touching his sex toys.
But they all agree on one thing: don't touch women (unless you own them and they're not menstruating).
Thu Nov 11, 09:28:00 PM 2010
Fatman said...
This actually goes a long way toward explaining the myriad things wrong with religious nutbags of all colors.
Fri Nov 12, 05:10:00 AM 2010
wentworth said...
I like your blog. I note that you don't quote Jesus but Paul as "the guy who started it all" and this seems a bit disengenuous. Paul was likely, I think, a deeply disturbed man. But Jesus, to my knowledge, never said such outrageous things. If you disagree, pleae provide the quotes for discussion. Thanks.
Fri Nov 12, 05:21:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Yeah, I was half joking about the "guy who started it all" thing. Still, I think a decent case can be made that Paul was the real founder of Christianity, not Jesus. If it hadn't of been for Paul, Christianity would probably have died with Jesus.
Fri Nov 12, 06:52:00 AM 2010
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04 November 20101 Nephi 17: The Trip to Bountiful
Up to now, Nephi and company have just been camping out in the wilderness, going on little side trips from time to time. First they traveled from "the land of Jerusalem" to the shore of the Red Sea, a distance of at least 400 km. Then Nephi and his brothers made the return trip Jerusalem twice: first to get Lehi's brass plates and again to get some women. And in the last chapter, God gave Nephi a magic ball that pointed in the direction that God wanted him to go and even told Nephi where to kill wild beasts. All this happened within in single year: 600 BCE.
Now it was time for some serious traveling.
They began by heading east into the wilderness, across the Arabian peninsula.
And it came to pass that we did again take our journey in the wilderness; and we did travel nearly eastward from that time forth. 1 Nephi 17:1a
They waded through much affliction and their nameless women bore children in the wilderness.
And we did travel and wade through much affliction in the wilderness; and our women did bear children in the wilderness. 1 Nephi 17:1b
God fed them raw meat, their women gave plenty of suck, and the children grew up quickly, becoming as strong as men during the eight year journey.
And so great were the blessings of the Lord upon us, that while we did live upon raw meat in the wilderness, our women did give plenty of suck for their children, and were strong, yea, even like unto the men; and they began to bear their journeyings without murmurings. ... And we did sojourn for the space of many years, yea, even eight years in the wilderness. 1 Nephi 17:2-4
After eight years of wading through affliction, eating raw meat, and getting plenty of suck, they arrived at a land they called Bountiful (because of its much fruit and also wild honey). And they saw the sea which they called Irreantum (which being interpreted means nothing at all).
And we did come to the land which we called Bountiful, because of its much fruit and also wild honey; and all these things were prepared of the Lord that we might not perish. And we beheld the sea, which we called Irreantum, which, being interpreted, is many waters. 1 Nephi 17:5
Then it came to pass after a space of many days that he, Nephi, heard the voice of the Lord, saying, "Arise, get thee into the mountain." So Nephi got into the mountain and cried unto the Lord.
And it came to pass that after I, Nephi, had been in the land of Bountiful for the space of many days, the voice of the Lord came unto me, saying: Arise, and get thee into the mountain. And it came to pass that I arose and went up into the mountain, and cried unto the Lord. 1 Nephi 17:7
While Nephi was crying on the mountain top, God told him to build a ship.
And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto me, saying: Thou shalt construct a ship, after the manner which I shall show thee, that I may carry thy people across these waters. 1 Nephi 17:8
Nephi asked God where he would find the ore to make the metal to make the tools to make the ship.
And I said: Lord, whither shall I go that I may find ore to molten, that I may make tools to construct the ship after the manner which thou hast shown unto me? 1 Nephi 17:9
But it was no big deal. God showed Nephi where to find the ore to make the tools.
And it came to pass that the Lord told me whither I should go to find ore, that I might make tools. 1 Nephi 17:10
Nephi made a bellows from the skin of beasts so he could blow on a fire, which he made by striking two stones together.
And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did make a bellows wherewith to blow the fire, of the skins of beasts; and after I had made a bellows, that I might have wherewith to blow the fire, I did smite two stones together that I might make fire. 1 Nephi 17:11
Up to this time, you see, Nephi et al had no fire as they journeyed through the wilderness. They ate raw meat, which God sweetened for them.
For the Lord had not hitherto suffered that we should make much fire, as we journeyed in the wilderness; for he said: I will make thy food become sweet, that ye cook it not; 1 Nephi 17:12
So Nephi was pretty much all set. God showed Nephi where to mine the ore, from which he made ship-building tools using his trusty beast-skin bellows and striking stones.
And it came to pass that I did make tools of the ore which I did molten out of the rock. 1 Nephi 17:16
But when Nephi's brothers saw what he was doing they began to murmur against him.
And when my brethren saw that I was about to build a ship, they began to murmur against me, saying: Our brother is a fool, for he thinketh that he can build a ship; yea, and he also thinketh that he can cross these great waters. 1 Nephi 17:17
Whereupon Nephi began a long, boring 1000-word sermon. Among many other things (that I'm going to skip) he told his brothers that God straitens murmurers by sending fiery flying serpents to bite and kill them.
The Lord straitened them because of their iniquity. He sent fiery flying serpents among them. 1 Nephi 17:41
Then Nephi reminded them about stuff they'd already seen on the trip: talking angels from time to time that sometimes whispered and sometimes screamed so loudly that the earth shook.
Ye have seen an angel, and he spake unto you; yea, ye have heard his voice from time to time; and he hath spoken unto you in a still small voice, but ye were past feeling, that ye could not feel his words; wherefore, he has spoken unto you like unto the voice of thunder, which did cause the earth to shake as if it were to divide asunder. 1 Nephi 17:45
But Nephi's brothers were tired of Nephi and his screaming angels. So they tried to throw him into the sea. It didn't work, though, because Nephi he was filled with the power of God even to the consuming of his flesh and whoever touched him would wither like a dried reed.
And now it came to pass that when I had spoken these words, they were angry with me, and were desirous to throw me into the depths of the sea; and as they came forth to lay their hands upon me I spake unto them, saying: In the name of the Almighty God, I command you that ye touch me not, for I am filled with the power of God, even unto the consuming of my flesh; and whoso shall lay his hands upon me shall wither even as a dried reed; and he shall be as naught before the power of God, for God shall smite him. 1 Nephi 17:48
Nephi kept talking on and on about many things to his brothers. Finally Nephi's brothers gave up and durst not touch Nephi with their fingers for the space of many days.
And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said many things unto my brethren, insomuch that they were confounded and could not contend against me; neither durst they lay their hands upon me nor touch me with their fingers, even for the space of many days. Now they durst not do this lest they should wither before me, so powerful was the Spirit of God; and thus it had wrought upon them. 1 Nephi 17:52
Still, God wasn't completely satisfied. He decided not to wither Nephi's brothers like dried reeds, but to shock the hell out of them instead. Just to show off a bit.
And it came to pass that the Lord said unto me: Stretch forth thine hand again unto thy brethren, and they shall not wither before thee, but I will shock them, saith the Lord, and this will I do, that they may know that I am the Lord their God. 1 Nephi 17:53
And it came to pass that Nephi stretched forth his hand to his brethren and they didn't wither, but the Lord did shake them, just like he said that he would.
And it came to pass that I stretched forth my hand unto my brethren, and they did not wither before me; but the Lord did shake them, even according to the word which he had spoken. 1 Nephi 17:54
And that did the trick. After God shocked Nephi's brothers they knew of a surety that God was with Nephi. They even wanted to worship Nephi, but Nephi told them not to, saying, "Oh My Heck, you guys, I'm just your younger brother."
And now, they said: We know of a surety that the Lord is with thee, for we know that it is the power of the Lord that has shaken us. And they fell down before me, and were about to worship me, but I would not suffer them, saying: I am thy brother, yea, even thy younger brother. 1 Nephi 17:55
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Posted by Steve Wells at 11/04/2010 02:55:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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3 comments:
Lynn said...
Good Stuff!!
Fri Nov 05, 07:14:00 AM 2010
RsD said...
Steve,
Absolutely nothing to say. Just wanted to let you know that people are still reading and appreciative of your work here.
Sat Nov 06, 09:07:00 PM 2010
twillight said...
So shock-therapy is acceptable in mormonism?
Sun Nov 07, 08:35:00 AM 2010
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02 November 2010Jeroboam's family
The reason for this killing was the same as the last: God disliked Jeroboam (he was the worst person in the world) so he killed his son.
Now he's back for the rest of the family.
I think God may have gotten a bit carried away with this one, though. Remember how he told Jeroboam's wife that he was going to kill everyone in the house of Jeroboam "that pisseth against the wall"?
Behold, I will bring evil upon the house of Jeroboam, and will cut off from Jeroboam him that pisseth against the wall. 1 Kings 14.10
Well, usually "wall pissers" are taken to be males, but apparently God killed the entire family, including females.
God didn't do the killing himself, though, this time. He had Baasha do it for him. First Baasha killed Jeroboam's son Nadab, who became king of Israel after Jeroboam died. (Nadab was completely evil, too, just like his dad.)
Nadab the son of Jeroboam began to reign over Israel ... And he did evil in the sight of the LORD, and walked in the way of his father, and in his sin wherewith he made Israel to sin … and Baasha smote him ... and reigned in his stead. 15.25-28
Then God had Baasha kill Jeroboam's entire family, wall pissers and non wall pissers, alike. “He smote … any that breathed … according unto the saying of the Lord.”
He smote all the house of Jeroboam; he left not to Jeroboam any that breathed, until he had destroyed him, according unto the saying of the LORD, which he spake by his servant Ahijah the Shilonite: Because of the sins of Jeroboam which he sinned, and which he made Israel sin, by his provocation wherewith he provoked the LORD God of Israel to anger. 15.29-30
The Bible doesn't say whether or not the bodies of the dead family were treated like shit, as God said they would be.
Behold, I … will take away the remnant of the house of Jeroboam, as a man taketh away dung. 14.10
Or whether God fed their remains to the dogs and the birds, as he said he would.
Him that dieth of Jeroboam in the city shall the dogs eat; and him that dieth in the field shall the fowls of the air eat: for the LORD hath spoken it. 14.11
But I suppose that's what happened. God wouldn't lie about a thing like that. Would he?
The text doesn't say how many were killed in this killing, so I'll just say 10.
God's next killing: Baasha's family and friends
Posted by Steve Wells at 11/02/2010 11:32:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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01 November 2010Surah 2:218-242: Allah's guide to alcohol, gambling, menstruation, sex, and divorce
If anyone asks you about drinking and gambling, here's what Allah says to say.
They question thee about strong drink and games of chance. Say: In both is great sin, and (some) utility for men; but the sin of them is greater than their usefulness. 2:219a
Drinking and gambling are sinful, but useful. Allah isn't sure, but he figures their sinfulness is probably greater than their usefulness. Just try not to spend too much on either.
If you're wondering how much is too much, Allah has the answer for you. Only drink or gamble away what is superfluous.
And they ask thee what they ought to spend. Say: that which is superfluous. 2:219b
Allah makes all his revelations plain so you can happily reflect.
Thus Allah maketh plain to you (His) revelations, that haply ye may reflect. 2:219c
But don't drink and gamble away all your superfluous stuff. Save some for orphans.
And they question thee concerning orphans. Say: To improve their lot is best. 2:220
Next Allah gets down to the really important things in life. Things we all wonder about from time to time. Like should I marry a few idolatresses? Is an Islamic concubine better than a really hot Mormon woman? Should I refuse to give my daughter to a Christian man until he becomes a Muslim? And who should I invite to the Fire anyway?
Wed not idolatresses till they believe; for lo! a believing bondwoman is better than an idolatress though she please you; and give not your daughters in marriage to idolaters till they believe, for lo! a believing slave is better than an idolater though he please you. These invite unto the Fire. 2:221
And what about menstruation, you ask? Well, Allah has this to say about that.
Menstruation is a filthy disease. All good Muslim men should stay the hell away from menstruating women And for God sakes, don't have sex with them while they're menstruating. It creeps Allah out just to think of it.
But don't worry guys. After they clean up you can have sex with them whenever you want. Allah loves clean men as much as he hates menstruating women.
They question thee (O Muhammad) concerning menstruation. Say: It is an illness, so let women alone at such times and go not in unto them till they are cleansed. And when they have purified themselves, then go in unto them as Allah hath enjoined upon you. Truly Allah loveth those who turn unto Him, and loveth those who have a care for cleanness. 2:222
You see, in the mind of Allah, women are like a dirty field for you to plow with your penis. Plow them whenever you like (as long as they're not menstruating, of course.)
Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate) so go to your tilth as ye will. 2:223
Still, if you decide you don't want to have sex with your wives, Allah is OK with that, too. Wait four months, then if you change your mind, go ahead and have sex with them. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful, Fucking Crazy.
Those who forswear their wives must wait four months; then, if they change their mind, lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. 2:226
Women may not have sex for three months after getting a divorce. If they skip one of their filthy periods, they must not hide it. In such a case, Allah suggests that their ex-husbands take their pregnant wives back.
Women who are divorced shall wait, keeping themselves apart, three (monthly) courses. And it is not lawful for them that they should conceal that which Allah hath created in their wombs if they are believers in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands would do better to take them back in that case if they desire a reconciliation. 2:228a
Allah says that women have rights similar to the men that rule over them. It's just that men, you see, are better then women. Allah is Mighty, Wise, Misogynistic.
And they (women) have rights similar to those (of men) over them in kindness, and men are a degree above them. Allah is Mighty, Wise. 2:228b
I'm not going to go through all of Allah's rules for Holy Divorce. But here are a few highlights. None of it makes any sense to me.
First of all, you must divorce your wife twice. And she can ransom herself, whatever that might mean.
Divorce must be pronounced twice and then (a woman) must be retained in honour or released in kindness. And it is not lawful for you that ye take from women aught of that which ye have given them; except (in the case) when both fear that they may not be able to keep within the limits (imposed by) Allah. And if ye fear that they may not be able to keep the limits of Allah, in that case it is no sin for either of them if the woman ransom herself. These are the limits (imposed by) Allah. Transgress them not. For whoso transgresseth Allah's limits: such are wrong-doers. 2:229
But if you divorce your wife for the third time, you can't have her again until she marries another guy. Then if the other guy divorces her, it's OK for you to have sex with your thrice-divorced wife. What the hell. These are the limits of Allah.
And if he hath divorced her (the third time), then she is not lawful unto him thereafter until she hath wedded another husband. Then if he (the other husband) divorce her it is no sin for both of them that they come together again if they consider that they are able to observe the limits of Allah. These are the limits of Allah. He manifesteth them for people who have knowledge. 2:230
After your divorced wives have reached the end of their 3 month waiting period, you can take them or leave them. Just don't make Allah a laughing-stock.
When ye have divorced women, and they have reached their term, then retain them in kindness or release them in kindness. Retain them not to their hurt so that ye transgress (the limits). He who doeth that hath wronged his soul. Make not the revelations of Allah a laughing-stock (by your behaviour), but remember Allah's grace upon you and that which He hath revealed unto you of the Scripture and of wisdom, whereby He doth exhort you. Observe your duty to Allah and know that Allah is Aware of all things. 2:231
If you decide to go ahead with the divorce, let your ex-wives get married again. It's cleaner that way. Allah knows; you don't.
And when ye have divorced women and they reach their term, place not difficulties in the way of their marrying their husbands if it is agreed between them in kindness. This is an admonition for him among you who believeth in Allah and the Last Day. That is more virtuous for you, and cleaner. Allah knoweth; ye know not. 2:232
Mothers should breast feed their kids for two years, but they don't have to if they don't want to. And you can pay some other woman do it for you if you want. Whatever.
Mothers shall suckle their children for two whole years; (that is) for those who wish to complete the suckling. The duty of feeding and clothing nursing mothers in a seemly manner is upon the father of the child. No-one should be charged beyond his capacity. A mother should not be made to suffer because of her child, nor should he to whom the child is born (be made to suffer) because of his child. And on the (father's) heir is incumbent the like of that (which was incumbent on the father). If they desire to wean the child by mutual consent and (after) consultation, it is no sin for them; and if ye wish to give your children out to nurse, it is no sin for you, provide that ye pay what is due from you in kindness. Observe your duty to Allah, and know that Allah is Seer of what ye do. 2:233
After you die, your wives can't have sex for four months and ten days. After that, if they're not pregnant, it's no sin for you (you're dead, remember?) if they have sex again.
Such of you as die and leave behind them wives, they (the wives) shall wait, keeping themselves apart, four months and ten days. And when they reach the term (prescribed for them) then there is no sin for you in aught that they may do with themselves in decency. Allah is informed of what ye do. 2:234
Allah is telling you this so you can understand.
Thus Allah expoundeth unto you His revelations so that ye may understand. 2:242
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bogging the Quran
2:243-286 -- Zombie soldiers, Rip Van Winkle, bird talk, and other silly stories
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Posted by Steve Wells at 11/01/2010 01:50:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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2 comments:
sinclair said...
>Then if the other guy divorces her, it's OK for you to have sex with your thrice-divorced wife.
Four times divorced; the other guy also has to divorce twice ))
Mon Nov 01, 03:21:00 PM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Hey thanks, sinclair, for the correction. I hope I didn't cause anyone to mess up having sex with a four-times divorced wife and thereby do something outside the limits of Allah!
Thu Dec 09, 10:04:00 AM 2010
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28 December 20101 Nephi 20-21: I will feed them with their own flesh; they shall be drunken with their own blood
Joseph Smith Nephi must have been getting tired of writing. Why else would he copy two chapters nearly verbatim from the King James Version of the Bible?
I suspect that the answer is much like Bill Clinton's answer to the question, "Why did you have sex with Monica Lewinsky?"
Because he could.
Except that in Nephi's case he couldn't, could he? How could Nephi copy from a book that didn't exist at the time and wouldn't exist for another 2200 years or so?
Well, it's complicated, but I think it goes something like this.
Nephi was copying from the plates of Lehi -- the plates that he had to go back to Jerusalem to get by murdering Laban. Lehi's plates were written in Reformed Egyptian (it's a lot like Pig Latin) and these plates contained the writings of the Old Testament prophets, including Isaiah. So Nephi just copied Isaiah 48 and 49 in reformed Egyptian onto his plates, making them chapters 20 and 21 of First Nephi.
I know what you're thinking.
Why are chapters 20 and 21 of 1 Nephi nearly identical to Isaiah 48 and 49 in the King James Version of the Bible? Well, silly, that's because Joseph Smith translated them, along with the rest of the Book of Mormon, into English from the Reformed Egyptian. And the Bible that Joseph Smith was familiar with was the King James Bible, so he naturally modeled his translation after that.
Now some of you smart asses out there are going to say something like this: How could the plates of Lehi include Isaiah 48 and 49 since these chapters are a part of Deutero-Isaiah, which wasn't written until after the Babylonian exile, 70 years or so after 1 Nephi was supposedly written?
And the answer to that is this: the same God who revealed Isaiah to Isaiah (or to whoever wrote Deutero-Isaiah) revealed the same stuff to whoever wrote the plates of Lehi. It's as simple as that.
As you read 1 Nephi 20 and 21, though, you'll notice something strange: If you compare it to the KJV's Isaiah 48 and 49, the text is nearly identical, but some of the words have been changed.
For example, here is 1 Nephi 20:1.
Hearken and hear this, O house of Jacob, who are called by the name of Israel, and are come forth out of the waters of Judah, or out of the waters of baptism, who swear by the name of the Lord, and make mention of the God of Israel, yet they swear not in truth nor in righteousness. 1 Nephi 20:1
And here is the corresponding verse from the King James Version of Isaiah 48.
Hear ye this, O house of Jacob, which are called by the name of Israel, and are come forth out of the waters of Judah, which swear by the name of the LORD, and make mention of the God of Israel, but not in truth, nor in righteousness. Isaiah 48:1
So now you'll probably want to know why there are differences.
Well, remember how Satan's church (the Catholic church) took away the plain and precious parts of the Bible? Nephi is restoring Isaiah to it's plain and precious state before it was fucked up by the Catholics. (I guess God was being proactive, retroactive, preemptive, or something, since 1 Nephi was written about 600 years before Jesus and/or Satan founded the Catholic church.)
And now some of you will probably ask how Isaiah (or the author of Deutero-Isaiah) could have included "out of the waters of baptism" since baptism was totally unknown in Old Testament times. And the answer, of course, is that God told him about baptism nearly 600 before it existed.
OK, so are we all clear now on how Isaiah 48 and 49 ended up in 1 Nephi 20 and 21, and why it is nearly (but not quite) identical to the King James Version of the Bible?
Good. Let's get on to more important matters -- like why God included these chapters in the Book of Mormon in the first place.
The short answer to that question is this: No one has any idea. Except that, as Joseph Smith Nephi explains later, Nephi's "soul delighteth" in the words of Isaiah.
And when you take a look at the last verse that he quotes from Isaiah, you can get an idea of what Nephi finds so delightful.
And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; they shall be drunken with their own blood as with sweet wine. 1 Nephi 21:26
But you'll have to wait until the next exciting episode to find out why Nephi is so delighted by this verse.
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Blogging the Book of Mormon
Next episode -- 1 Nephi 22: Someday Catholics will get drunk on their own blood
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Posted by Steve Wells at 12/28/2010 03:24:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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Chris said...
Great post. I've been researching a little bit of Isaiah 9:6 since I've heard it quoted a few times this Christmas by my TBM family. Basically the Christian's misinterpreted the hebrew and wrote their own version and that's how they created another "fulfilled" prophecy in Jesus. But that same verse is also in the B.O.M.
Wed Dec 29, 02:09:00 PM 2010
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22 December 2010Surah 4: 1-34 Woe to the Women
Surah 4 begins by repeating one of the first lies of Genesis. God created a man first, then a woman from the man, and all humans descended from them.
Your Lord Who created you from a single soul and from it created its mate and from them twain hath spread abroad a multitude of men and women. 4:1
Then Allah says something nice: don't steal from orphans or exchange the good for the bad.
Give unto orphans their wealth. Exchange not the good for the bad (in your management thereof) nor absorb their wealth into your own wealth. Lo! that would be a great sin. 4:2
If you mistreat orphans, Allah will burn you forever in the Fire. Fair is fair.
Those who devour the wealth of orphans wrongfully, they do but swallow fire into their bellies, and they will be exposed to burning flame. 4:10
Of course there are lots of other things that Allah will burn you forever for. Like disobeying him or his messenger Mo.
Whoso disobeyeth Allah and His messenger and transgresseth His limits, He will make him enter Fire, where he will dwell for ever; his will be a shameful doom. 4:14
Or killing people through injustice or aggression.
Kill not one another ... Whoso doeth that through aggression and injustice, we shall cast him into Fire, and that is ever easy for Allah. 4:29-30
Or behaving badly without repenting until nearly dead, or dying while disbelieving.
The forgiveness is not for those who do ill-deeds until, when death attendeth upon one of them, he saith: Lo! I repent now; nor yet for those who die while they are disbelievers. For such We have prepared a painful doom. 4:18
Next Allah lays down the law on inheritance.
The first part is clear enough. Females get half as much as males.
Allah chargeth you concerning (the provision for) your children: to the male the equivalent of the portion of two females... 4:11a
But things get confusing after that.
...and if there be women more than two, then theirs is two-thirds of the inheritance, and if there be one (only) then the half.And to each of his parents a sixth of the inheritance, if he have a son; and if he have no son and his parents are his heirs, then to his mother appertaineth the third; and if he have brethren, then to his mother appertaineth the sixth, after any legacy he may have bequeathed, or debt (hath been paid). Your parents and your children: Ye know not which of them is nearer unto you in usefulness. It is an injunction from Allah. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.
And unto you belongeth a half of that which your wives leave, if they have no child; but if they have a child then unto you the fourth of that which they leave, afte r any legacy they may have bequeathed, or debt (they ma y have contracted, hath been paid). And unto them belon geth the fourth of that which ye leave if ye have no ch ild, but if ye have a child then the eighth of that whi ch ye leave, after any legacy ye may have bequeathed, o r debt (ye may have contracted, hath been paid). And if a man or a woman have a distant heir (having left neit her parent nor child), and he (or she) have a brother o r a sister (only on the mother's side) then to each of them twain (the brother and the sister) the sixth, and if they be more than two, then they shall be sharers in the third, after any legacy that may have been bequeat hed or debt (contracted) not injuring (the heirs by wil ling away more than a third of the heritage) hath been 4:11b-12
None of that makes sense to me, but here's a link that explains it all for you.
But the focus of this Surah is, as its title suggests, on women.
Allah explains that it's OK to have two, three, or four wives, slave or free. Whatever.
Marry of the women, who seem good to you, two or three or four; and if ye fear that ye cannot do justice (to so many) then one (only) or (the captives) that your right hands possess. 4:3
And if you can't afford to marry free Muslims women, go ahead and marry slaves, as long as they're Muslims.
Whoso is not able to afford to marry free, believing women, let them marry from the believing maids whom your right hands possess. 4:25a
But don't worry too much about it. If you decide you don't like some of your wives you can always exchange them for others.
And if ye wish to exchange one wife for another.... 4:20
Be careful, though, not to marry any women that are already married -- unless they're slaves that you obtained in war. Then it's OK.
All married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess. 4:24
If any of your non-slave wives get lewd, cut off their inheritance and confine them to the house until they die.
It is not lawful for you forcibly to ... take away a part of that which ye have given them, unless they be guilty of flagrant lewdness. 4:19
As for those of your women who are guilty of lewdness ... confine them to the houses until death take them. 4:15
If your slave wives are guilty of lewdness, punish them half as much as you punish your lewd free wives.
If when they are honourably married they commit lewdness they shall incur the half of the punishment (prescribed) for free women. 4:25b
Always remember that men are better than women because Allah made them that way and men spend lots of money on women.
Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). 4:34a
So good women are obedient to men, guarding the secret that Allah gave to them.
So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. 4:34b
If your wives refuse to obey you, beat them and refuse to have sex with them.
As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. 4:34c
That'll teach them.
Posted by Steve Wells at 12/22/2010 07:28:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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8 comments:
Luis said...
God - whether in the Christian, Jewish or Muslim mould - clearly hates and fears women. And that can only mean one thing: that women are in fact the most wonderful, beautiful, wholesome things in existence. What other entities could elicit such hatred and frustrated discomfort and anxiety from those who invented the patriarchal Sky Dictator? Think about that.
Women: for you to still believe in God (at least in a fundamentalist, literalist interpretation of him) is like African Americans seeking to restore slavery. So I say to you: mercilessly mock and ridicule God. Wage intellectual WAR against God. You have truth, virtue and beauty on your side. He has violence, stupidity and filth on his. Expose the cowardly and insecure 'men' who defend him and who want to control you through him. When you see this sickness infect someone, point out to them in no uncertain terms how stupid, infantile and limp-dicked it is. Ask the person why they fear and despise women so much that they're prepared to make you feel low so that they might suck the teat of authority and avoid the punishment prepared for them if they don't slavishly obey like the helper monkeys they feel that they need to be.
In short: kill God. Lynch the fucker. And don't let up on his supporters, who keep this weed alive.
Fri Dec 24, 06:52:00 AM 2010
srinivas said...
Going by books it is pretty obvious that women are never treated kindly in 3 Abrahamic religions.
But Christianity moved forward something Islam could not do. And to do would be to accept that Koran can not be a word of God but of a warlord and fall of Islam like paper cart.
Fri Dec 24, 11:16:00 AM 2010
nazani said...
Could we have a flow chart, please? We women need a graphic to show us exactly what pittance we're entitled to.
Wonder how inheritance works in LDS polygamous households.
Sun Dec 26, 06:23:00 AM 2010
Robert said...
Seem like sensible rules to me.
The Muslim women I have met on the Arabian Peninsula over the past ten years appear a lot happier than the Western feminist harpies.
Mon Dec 27, 04:13:00 PM 2010
Steve Wells said...
So it seems sensible to you, Robert, that men are better than women (because Allah made them that way), that a man should marry as many women as he wants, that his wives should always obey him, and that he should beat them if they don't?
Fri Dec 31, 03:37:00 PM 2010
Robert said...
Siman 46:4: A person must say the Blessings shelo asani goy (Who did not make me a non-Jew), shelo asani aved (Who did not make me a slave), and shelo asani isha (Who did not make me a woman) every day.
Sat Jan 01, 08:17:00 AM 2011
Robert said...
In his Mishneh Torah, Moses Maimonides (1135–1204) recommended beating a bad wife as an acceptable form of discipline: "A wife who refuses to perform any kind of work that she is obligated to do, may be compelled to perform it, even by scourging her with a rod" (Ishut 21:10).
Sat Jan 01, 08:37:00 AM 2011
Robert said...
Israel stands up for G-d about women.
Women are not allowed to testify in rabbinical courts, which handle divorce and marriage for all Jews. They cannot divorce without a husband’s permission, and childless widows need a brother-in-law’s approval for remarriage.If a woman has been widowed three times, with all three husbands dying of natural causes, she is declared the isha katlanit, the fatal woman, and is legally forbidden to marry again. If a husband simply disappears, no matter how long he has been missing; his wife cannot remarry without absolute proof of his death…”
A man may commit adultery and eventually marry his lover, while a married woman is forbidden ever to marry her lover, and any children born from an extramarital affair are considered bastards (mamzerim). In Judaism a bastard is a pariah. He or she cannot marry unless the potential spouse is also a bastard. Neither can a bastard in Israel marry outside the faith as the exclusive control of marriage in Israel by the religious authorities precludes such a possibility.
Israel maintains levirate marriage: a woman whose husband dies leaving her childless must be released from her deceased husband’s unmarried brother in a ceremony carried out in rabbinical court.
Tue Jan 04, 09:51:00 AM 2011
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14 December 20101 Nephi 19: Zenos' Paradox
It's hard to keep track of all the plates in the Book of Mormon.
Remember the the plates of Lehi? You know, the ones that Lehi forgot when he left Jerusalem, so he had to send his sons back get them? Lehi's plates were so important to God that he sent an angel to force Nephi to decapitate an unconscious man so he could steal his plates.
Then came the plates of Nephi: two separate sets of plates, actually, both confusingly named by Nephi "the plates of Nephi." One for "the more part of the ministry" and the other "for the more part of the reign of the kings and the wars and contentions."
And now, in chapter 19, God tells Nephi to make another set. I guess you just can't have too many plates.
And it came to pass that the Lord commanded me, wherefore I did make plates of ore that I might engraven upon them the record of my people. And upon the plates which I made I did engraven the record of my father, and also our journeyings in the wilderness, and the prophecies of my father; and also many of mine own prophecies have I engraven upon them. 1 Nephi 19:1
On his third set of plates, Nephi only included the "more plain and precious" stuff, leaving out any unnecessary words, as you'd expect from someone engraving on plates of ore.
And I knew not at the time when I made them that I should be commanded of the Lord to make these plates; wherefore, the record of my father, and the genealogy of his fathers, and the more part of all our proceedings in the wilderness are engraven upon those first plates of which I have spoken; wherefore, the things which transpired before I made these plates are, of a truth, more particularly made mention upon the first plates. And after I had made these plates by way of commandment, I, Nephi, received a commandment that the ministry and the prophecies, the more plain and precious parts of them, should be written upon these plates; and that the things which were written should be kept for the instruction of my people, who should possess the land, and also for other wise purposes, which purposes are known unto the Lord. Wherefore, I, Nephi, did make a record upon the other plates, which gives an account, or which gives a greater account of the wars and contentions and destructions of my people. And this have I done, and commanded my people what they should do after I was gone; and that these plates should be handed down from one generation to another, or from one prophet to another, until further commandments of the Lord. And an account of my making these plates shall be given hereafter; and then, behold, I proceed according to that which I have spoken; and this I do that the more sacred things may be kept for the knowledge of my people. 1 Nephi 19:2-5
Nephi didn't write anything on the plates unless it was sacred.
Nevertheless, I do not write anything upon plates save it be that I think it be sacred. 1 Nephi 19:6a
But he admits that he might have made some mistakes, like the guys who wrote the Bible did. Not that he's making any excuses, of course.
And now, if I do err, even did they err of old; not that I would excuse myself because of other men, but because of the weakness which is in me, according to the flesh, I would excuse myself. 1 Nephi 19:6b
Then Nephi starts in again with prophecy, repeating the same stuff he's already told us several times before. (1 Nephi 10:4, 11:18, 13:40)
Jesus will be born 600 years after Lehi and his family left Jerusalem (and 592 years after Nephi wrote the prophecy down in his little brass book.)
And behold he cometh, according to the words of the angel, in six hundred years from the time my father left Jerusalem. 1 Nephi 19:8
But at least he does throw in a few new names. Zenock, Neum, and Zenos -- Old Testament prophets whose writings were removed by that great and abominable church founded by the devil. (You know, the Catholics.)
Anyway, Zenock, Neum, and Zenos knew all about Jesus. He'd be crucified, buried in a sepulchre, and after his death, there'd be three days of darkness.
And the God of our fathers, who were led out of Egypt, out of bondage, and also were preserved in the wilderness by him, yea, the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, yieldeth himself, according to the words of the angel, as a man, into the hands of wicked men, to be lifted up, according to the words of Zenock, and to be crucified, according to the words of Neum, and to be buried in a sepulchre, according to the words of Zenos, which he spake concerning the three days of darkness, which should be a sign given of his death unto those who should inhabit the isles of the sea, more especially given unto those who are of the house of Israel. 1 Nephi 19:10
Three days of darkness? Yeah, that's what Zenos prophesied. The entire earth would be completely dark for three days after Jesus' death (See 3 Nephi 8:20-22 and Helaman 14:27 for the exciting details), as a sign to Lehi's descendants in "the isles of the sea" (the Lamanites in America and Polynesia).
Of course that's not what the Bible says. Matthew, Mark, and Luke say it was dark for three hours just before Jesus died. (It's one of the few things those three guys agree on.) But that's because the evil Catholics changed the plain and precious shit in the Bible.
Zenos prophesied further that mountains would be carried away after Jesus died, along with lots of other nutty stuff. (See 3 Nephi 8 where cities sunk, mountains were moved and dumped upon cities, etc.)
For thus spake the prophet: The Lord God surely shall visit ... others with the thunderings and the lightnings of his power, by tempest, by fire, and by smoke, and vapor of darkness, and by the opening of the earth, and by mountains which shall be carried up. And all these things must surely come, saith the prophet Zenos. And the rocks of the earth must rend; and because of the groanings of the earth, many of the kings of the isles of the sea shall be wrought upon by the Spirit of God, to exclaim: The God of nature suffers. 1 Nephi 19:11-12
Then Zenos explains how all kinds of bad stuff would happen to the Jews because they "crucify the God of Israel." They'd be hated by all nations, wander in the flesh, etc.
And as for those who are at Jerusalem, saith the prophet, they shall be scourged by all people, because they crucify the God of Israel, and turn their hearts aside, rejecting signs and wonders, and the power and glory of the God of Israel. And because they turn their hearts aside, saith the prophet, and have despised the Holy One of Israel, they shall wander in the flesh, and perish, and become a hiss and a byword, and be hated among all nations. 1 Nephi 19:13-14
And finally, after blathering on about nothing for a few verses, Nephi says he's going to swipe a couple of chapters from the book of Isaiah as a bit of filler for his plates of brass.
Now it came to pass that I, Nephi, did teach my brethren these things; And it came to pass that I did read many things to them, which were engraven upon the plates of brass ... I did read unto them that which was written by the prophet Isaiah. 1 Nephi 19:22-23
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Next episode -- 1 Nephi 20-21: I will feed them with their own flesh; they shall be drunken with their own blood
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Posted by Steve Wells at 12/14/2010 01:13:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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twillight said...
Darn, and these plates were not named anything pecific, so these are really just another plates of Nephi!
A minor note: mountain-throwing and more darkness at Jeus' death? But no more zombies? Oh well, at least they did not take that out :D
Tue Dec 14, 02:55:00 PM 2010
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12 December 2010Surah 3 -- Allah is the best of schemers
The last surah (2) took eleven posts over a period of five months. Even considering its length (286 verses), that's just too darned long. At that rate, it'd take me about nine years to finish blogging the Quran. So I'm going to speed things up a bit.
That's not that hard to do, at least with Surah 3. It, too, is long (200 verses), but it doesn't have much to say. And what it does say, it says over and over again.
So I just went through the whole thing and grouped the interesting verses into categories. Here's what I came up with.
Some scriptures are allegorical and some are not. No one understands the allegorical stuff except for Allah.
He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. 3:7
Take 3:13, for example, an allegorical scripture if there ever was one.
Allah tells us about a battle between the good guys (the Muslims) and the bad guys (the non-Muslims). One side saw "clearly, with their very eyes" that the other side had twice as many soldiers. End of story. "Lo! herein verily is a lesson for those who have eyes." (I guess I don't have eyes.)
There was a token for you in two hosts which met: one army fighting in the way of Allah, and another disbelieving, whom they saw as twice their number, clearly, with their very eyes. Thus Allah strengtheneth with His succour whom He will. Lo! herein verily is a lesson for those who have eyes. 3:13
But Allah doesn't use allegory when he tells us how he feels about people. He has a simple rule that he always follows: he likes Muslims and hates everyone else.
Why does Allah like Muslims so much? Because they are the best people on earth, they behave themselves, forbid indecency, and believe in Allah. Allah loves people who believe in him.
Ye are the best community that hath been raised up for mankind. Ye enjoin right conduct and forbid indecency; and ye believe in Allah. And if the People of the Scripture had believed it had been better for them. Some of them are believers; but most of them are evil-livers. 3:110
Still, he likes some Muslims more than others.
Allah preferred Adam and Noah and the Family of Abraham and the Family of 'Imran above (all His) creatures. They were descendants one of another. Allah is Hearer, Knower. 3:33-34
And he absolutely hates non-Muslims.
Allah loveth not the disbelievers. 3:32
Some day he'll even color-code the living dead by whitening the faces of Muslims and blackening the faces of non-Muslims.
On the Day when (some) faces will be whitened and (some) faces will be blackened; and as for those whose faces have been blackened, it will be said unto them: Disbelieved ye after your (profession of) belief ? Then taste the punishment for that ye disbelieved. 3:106
While they are alive, Allah will terrorize the non-Muslims.
We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. 3:151
And after they die, he'll torment them forever by burning their resurrected bodies.
Lo! those who disbelieve the revelations of Allah, theirs will be a heavy doom. 3:4
Those who disbelieve ... will be fuel for Fire. 3:10
Those who disbelieve ... shall be ... gathered unto Hell. 3:12
Whoso disbelieveth the revelations of Allah (will find that) lo! Allah is swift at reckoning. 3:19
Lo! those who disbelieve the revelations of Allah ... promise them a painful doom. 3:21
They say: The Fire will not touch us save for a certain number of days. That which they used to invent hath deceived them regarding their religion. 3:24
As for those who disbelieve I shall chastise them with a heavy chastisement in the world and the Hereafter; and they will have no helpers. 3:56
Whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter. 3:85
Those who disbelieve, and die in disbelief ... Theirs will be a painful doom and they will have no helpers. 3:91
Those who separated and disputed after the clear proofs had come unto them. For such there is an awful doom, 3:105
Those who disbelieve ... are rightful owners of the Fire. They will abide therein. 3:116
And ward off (from yourselves) the Fire prepared for disbelievers. 3:131
Those who purchase disbelief at the price of faith harm Allah not at all, but theirs will be a painful doom. 3:177
Those who disbelieve ... We only give them rein that they may grow in sinfulness. And theirs will be a shameful doom. 3:178
But there is one group of people that Allah hates even more than non-Muslims (if such a thing is possible): Muslim apostates. They are cursed by Allah, the angels, and men combined.
People who disbelieved after their belief ... on them rests the curse of Allah and of angels and of men combined. They will abide therein. Their doom will not be lightened, neither will they be reprieved. 3:86-88
So don't be friends with non-Muslims.
Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers. 3:28
O ye who believe! Take not for intimates others than your own folk, who would spare no pains to ruin you; they love to hamper you. Hatred is revealed by (the utterance of) their mouths, but that which their breasts hide is greater. 3:118
Don't obey them.
O ye who believe! if ye obey those who disbelieve, they will make you turn back on your heels, and ye turn back as losers. 3:149
Or believe anything they say.
Believe not save in one who followeth your religion. 3:73
But ask Allah to help you defeat them.
Give us victory over the disbelieving folk. 3:147
Because Muslims can beat non-Muslims any day of the week.
Ye will overcome them if ye are (indeed) believers. 3:139
And only Muslim chicken-shits are inspired by Satan.
Lo! those of you who turned back on the day when the two hosts met, Satan alone it was who caused them to backslide 3:155
So don't worry about dying in a holy war against non-Muslims.
Though ye be slain in Allah's way or die therein? Surely pardon from Allah and mercy are better than all that they amass. 3:157
Because Muslim holy war soldiers never die, they just hang out in nice gardens with pure companions.
For those who keep from evil, with their Lord, are Gardens underneath which rivers flow wherein they will abide, and pure companions, and contentment from Allah. 3:15
Think not of those, who are slain in the way of Allah, as dead. Nay, they are living ... Jubilant (are they) ... rejoicing ... neither shall they grieve. 3:169-170
Those who ... were slain, verily I shall remit their evil deeds from them and verily I shall bring them into Gardens underneath which rivers flow. 3:195
And then there are a few strange stories and tiny tidbits that Allah wants to share with you.
There's the one about Allah, Jesus, and magic clay birds.
Lo! I [Allah] fashion for you [Jesus] out of clay the likeness of a bird, and I breathe into it and it is a bird, by Allah's leave. 3:49
And this good advice for believers of all religions.
Why then argue ye concerning that whereof ye have no knowledge? 3:66
And finally, my favorite verse in Surah 3: "Allah is the best of all schemers."
And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers. 3:54
Posted by Steve Wells at 12/12/2010 10:10:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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uzza said...
Religion of peace, brought to you by Allah the merciful, yup.
It's not immediately clear how a book full of allegory can be "A book free of doubt (2:1)"
Sun Dec 12, 02:42:00 PM 2010
Ritchie Annand said...
Your own journey through the Qur'an was awesome, Uzza :)
Mon Dec 13, 01:51:00 AM 2010
Bukko Canukko said...
I used to work as a nurse in a psychiatric crisis ward in Florida, where the county sheriffs deputies would bring people who went off their nuts, and we'd medicate them until they were stabilized. Listening to the religiously fixated ones rant their hatred and desire to kill, I could see that there's something in the nature of God delusions that infiltrates the human brain like a computer virus does a hard drive. Each has a flaw in the control system that lets a dysfunctional thing take over.
It was Christ-based crazies I dealt with there. But every time I read about the Koran -- tried to read it a few times myself, but it was so stultifying that I couldn't get through more than a few pages -- I can see why it would attract delusional people. Especially since so many Muslim cultures are as holy book-focused as Christians were during the Middle Ages.
Religion -- it's a thought-virus for the hard-drive of your brain.
Mon Dec 13, 05:54:00 AM 2010
skanksta said...
Steve,
I was having a read thru' your SAQ, (good read as usual, thanks) and wondered...
Do all those Fundamentalist websites and services that advertise on your page know what it's about !?
Do you ever feel guilty, lol ?!
Mon Dec 13, 06:57:00 AM 2010
11-year old Atheist said...
@skansta Religious ads appear on every atheist and religious site that has ads. I don't think it's a big issue for the SAB/Q/BOM author.
Mon Dec 13, 10:54:00 AM 2010
skanksta said...
I'd not noticed them before, lol !
Tue Dec 14, 08:58:00 AM 2010
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07 December 2010You KNOW it's a Myth
And I think most people really do know that. They just won't admit it.
Or as Stephen Colbert put it:
A myth? What part of three kings following a star through a desert to bring presents to an immaculately conceived baby god they dreamed about seems like a myth to you?
The Colbert Report Mon - Thurs 11:30pm / 10:30c
The Blitzkrieg On Grinchitude - Atheist Billboard & Capitol Christmas Tree
www.colbertnation.com
Colbert Report Full Episodes 2010 Election March to Keep Fear Alive
Posted by Steve Wells at 12/07/2010 09:01:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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11-year old Panendeist said...
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Tue Dec 07, 10:48:00 AM 2010
exfundy said...
Hard to beat Stephen at mockery. Impossible actually!
I don't know how my DH can watch it day in and day out and still be a believer.
I also do wonder about his Roman Catholicism. Maybe he is one of those who think the myth drags the spirituality out of him, like the so-called progressive Christians
Wed Dec 08, 08:08:00 AM 2010
skanksta said...
I love the myth !
Wed Dec 08, 10:54:00 AM 2010
Joker_SATX said...
ROTFLMAO!
Fri Dec 10, 11:17:00 AM 2010
MiaKBaker said...
I really enjoy that billboard. I mean, yeah..it might be a little bit of a slap in the face but sometimes that's what it takes for a creationist to open their eyes and take a deep look into their silly religion.
Fri Dec 10, 05:06:00 PM 2010
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05 December 2010Five Golden Hemorrhoids: A Biblically Correct Version of The Twelve Days of Christmas
On the 1st day of Christmas my true love gave to me...
A Goddamned Fruitless Fig Tree
And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet. And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it. ... And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots. Mark 11:13-20
On the 2nd day of Christmas my true love gave to me...
Two hundred foreskins
And Saul said, Thus shall ye say to David, The king desireth not any dowry, but an hundred foreskins of the Philistines ... And when his servants told David these words, it pleased David well ... Wherefore David arose and went, he and his men, and slew of the Philistines two hundred men; and David brought their foreskins, and they gave them in full tale to the king, that he might be the king's son in law. And Saul gave him Michal his daughter to wife. And Saul saw and knew that the LORD was with David. 1 Samuel 18:25-28
On the 3rd day of Christmas my true love gave to me...
Three naked years
At the same time spake the LORD by Isaiah ... saying, Go and loose the sackcloth from off thy loins, and put off thy shoe from thy foot. And he did so, walking naked and barefoot. And the LORD said, Like as my servant Isaiah hath walked naked and barefoot three years for a sign and wonder. Isaiah 20:2-3
On the 4th day of Christmas my true love gave to me...
Four-footed fowls
All fowls that creep, going upon all four, shall be an abomination unto you. Leviticus 11:20
On the 5th day of Christmas my true love gave to me...
Five golden hemorrhoids
What shall be the trespass offering which we shall return to him? They answered, Five golden emerods, and five golden mice ... Wherefore ye shall make images of your emerods, and images of your mice that mar the land; and ye shall give glory unto the God of Israel: peradventure he will lighten his hand from off you, and from off your gods, and from off your land ... And they laid the ark of the LORD upon the cart, and the coffer with the mice of gold and the images of their emerods. 1 Samuel 6:4-11
On the 6th day of Christmas my true love gave to me...
Six-winged beasts
And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes. Revelation 4:8
On the 7th day of Christmas my true love gave to me...
Seven bloody sprinkles
The priest shall dip his finger in the blood, and sprinkle of the blood seven times before the LORD. Leviticus 4:6, 4:17
And he shall kill the one of the birds ... And he shall take ... the living bird, and dip them in the blood of the slain bird ... and sprinkle the house seven times. Leviticus 14:50-51
And he shall take of the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it with his finger upon the mercy seat ... seven times. Leviticus 16:14
And he shall sprinkle of the blood upon it with his finger seven times. Leviticus 16:19
On the 8th day of Christmas my true love gave to me...
Eight bodies burning
But the fearful (1), and unbelieving (2), and the abominable (3), and murderers (4), and whoremongers (5), and sorcerers (6), and idolaters (7), and all liars (8), shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Revelation 21:8
On the 9th day of Christmas my true love gave to me...
A nine cubit bed
Only Og king of Bashan remained of the remnant of giants; behold his bedstead ... nine cubits was the length thereof. Deuteronomy 3:11
On the 10th day of Christmas my true love gave to me...
The tenth plague of Egypt
At midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle ... and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead. Exodus 12:29-30
On the 11th day of Christmas my true love gave to me...
Eleven hardened hearts
And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. Exodus 4:11
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt. Exodus 7:3
And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. Exodus 7:13
And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses. Exodus 9:12
And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him: Exodus 10:1
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go.Exodus 10:20
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go.Exodus 10:27
And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land. Exodus 11:10
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD. Exodus 14:4
And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel Exodus 14:8
I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour.Exodus 14:17
On the 12th day of Christmas my true love gave to me...
Twelve concubine pieces
So the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go. Then came the woman in the dawning of the day, and fell down at the door of the man's house where her lord was ... and, behold, the woman his concubine was fallen down at the door of the house, and her hands were upon the threshold. And he said unto her, Up, and let us be going. But none answered. Then the man took her up upon an ass, and the man rose up, and gat him unto his place. And when he was come into his house, he took a knife, and laid hold on his concubine, and divided her, together with her bones, into twelve pieces, and sent her into all the coasts of Israel. Judges 19:25-29
Posted by Steve Wells at 12/05/2010 04:40:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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4 comments:
skanksta said...
Can't stop singing, "FIVE GOL-DEN HEM-OR-RHOIDS" !
Wed Dec 15, 03:45:00 AM 2010
Idontwantastinkingnickname said...
Can't believe you left out the talking donkey.
Sun Jun 12, 01:58:00 PM 2011
Idontwantastinkingnickname said...
Can't believe you left out the talking donkey.
Sun Jun 12, 01:58:00 PM 2011
S E E Quine said...
I'm with skanksta!
Mon Sep 12, 01:46:00 AM 2011
Post a Comment
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Introduction
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powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
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