Hi. One reason I quote from AtheistNexus so much is because there are so many great articles and discussions on there. Here's an interesting one about Anthony Flew's conversion to deism. I was inspired by this article to make a little comment on the secular community not providing safe places for like-minded people to meet due to the author's comments on UU's. Here's the article:
heard about "Ex-Atheist" Prof. Anthony Flew, clarify pls?
Posted by Nicole Hellene on July 17, 2011 at 9:27pm in Theism, Deism, & All Things Religious
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Just getting active on the site again but a Facebook friend recently posted something about some philosopher guy named Anthony Flew de-converting from Atheism (??). I'd like to know specifically what the deal is and if this guy is just another Unitarian masquerading as an Atheist and then "converting" to Christianity as a PR stunt to sell books? I hate when Unitarians and Universalists and so-called "interfaith" people claim to be Atheists just to smear it, so can someone give me the tl/dr lowdown on this guy?
Here's the youtube vid, didn't watch it but I read the description.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJoOhbf3_Ts&feature=related
One of Britain's most resolute unbelievers. A philosopher who for many decades has proclaimed his lack belief in any kind of God. Then late at 2004 Professor Antony Flew declared that he had changed his mind after reading Dr Gerald Schroeder's books. (Dr Schroeder is a leading Israeli scientist ).
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Permalink Reply by Matt VDB on July 18, 2011 at 5:30am
Lol... no, he's not a unitarian masquerading as an atheist. Funny how you would think that. The story is actually fairly straightforward.
Anthony Flew was indeed one of the most well-known British philosophers, having teached at many prominent universities and writing many influential papers (his best known is "The Presumption of Atheism").
Then in 2004, he announced that he was no longer an atheist. Of course lots of controversy followed and both theists and atheists were falling over each other to try to get Flew to clarify on his views. After a while it became clear that Flew had become a deist; he argued that after reading about the complexity of many of the organisms on Earth (and not just the organisms themselves, but the building blocks of the first cell, etcetera) that there needed to be some intelligence to help create the conditions for the first cell, to fine-tune the universe, etcetera. Flew said that he had always lived his life determined to follow the evidence where it leads, and for him, the advances in microbiology and cosmology gave him enough evidence to believe in God.
Of course there's been criticism of his views, notably people saying that Flew did not understand abiogenesis (and in fact, Flew admitted that he did not know that there were theories of abiogenesis - even though when he did learn about them, he said that they weren't good enough), and others saying that he was just getting too old and had mentally declined.
Whatever the case may be, he's written some books more clearly articulating his deist views ever since.
http://www.atheistnexus.org/forum/topics/just-heard-about-ex-atheist?commentId=2182797%3AComment%3A1437984
I highly doubt this guy was a Unitarian who was "masquerading" as an atheist who converted to Christianity to sell books. I don't agree with Nicole that Unitarians, Universalists and so-called interfaith people claim to be atheists "just to smear it". Whatever she means by this. This guy became a deists, but critics pointed out that he didn't understand abiogenesis,Anthony flew admitted this himself as this blog post from AtheistNexus.org states. He didn't know of the theories of abiogenesis and when learning about them the explanations were not good enough for him. Apparently, Nicole wants to play the "true atheist" game like Christian, Muslims, Hindus, religious Jews and Buddhists play the " they are not really a part of my religion" game. Christian Unitarians and Christian Universalists are obviously not atheists, of course. Some Unitarian-Universalists identify as atheists though. I wouldn't describe the UU's as "interfaith people". They do engage in interfaith work. True, the UU's are theological diverse, but I wouldn't qualify them as "interfaith people". So, what exactly is your point, Nicole? If an atheist wants to be a member of the UU Church. Let them. Such people still atheists at the end of the day, even if they are a Unitarian-Universalist. If you don't care for Unitarian-Universalism, don't be a Unitarian-Universalist. If other atheists like being involved with Unitarian-Universalism, that's fine by me.
What about cultural Jews, like me? Apparently their not atheists either because they choose to affiliate themselves with a culture that has shares a common history with a religious movement. MattVDB, he finds it funny that Nicole would accuse Flew of being a Unitarian "masquerading" as an atheist. I'm a cultural Jew by choice and I'm still an atheist. Cultural Jews are still atheists. If you don't like humanistic , secular or cultural Judaism, then don't be a part of those movements. If atheists want to be humanistic, cultural or secular Jews, that's fine with me
I have no issue with attending a UU Church congregation or a service at a liberal Quaker meetinghouse once in a while. One thing I will say is that the atheist community is very poor at creating organized communities for atheists who want to socialize with other people of like mind. I am an atheist and I will and can say that the atheist community never seems to put it's money where it's mouth is. At least many religious institutions to offer helpful and useful services to local communities. I think it's nice of the liberal Quakers and Unitarian-Universalists to allow atheists as being members of their religious communities. It's more than what most religious people would do for us. Since so many atheists whine about how "practically all" religious people treat us so poorly. Many atheists shun the idea of having or participating in organized communities of like-minded persons because it makes us "religious".
Oh, so does attending a public school with people that you have met who may share similar ideas that you hold make you "religious"? Does a support group for women with breast cancer who are looking for comfort and support from others who are going through the same issues as they are in dealing with this complicated disease " religious"? Just because your an atheist, that is no guarantee that your a tolerant or rational person, as some many atheists are cited to behave in studies that have been conducted or claim to be in real life. I cannot speak for Nicole's intelligence, but I can say that she isn't as tolerant of a person, as this post implies. She's clearly resorting to the " No True-Scotsman argument" by practically saying who qualifies as a "real" atheist and who does not. Christians don't universally agree on really anything. There are extremist, fundamentalist, moderate and liberal Christians and sometimes they play the " their not 'real' Christians" card which is equally as annoying when atheists do it. In fact, atheists should no better than to play this kind of game.
Most liberal Christians that I know don't play the " true Christian" game. They'll just state " The fundamentalists and moderates have their view of Christianity, I have mine. They are probably not going to change their worldview, as long as their not interfering in my personal life, I don't care what they say or do in private". Fundamentalists Christians, of course say that liberal Christians " only want to justify sin" and that you have to take the Bible literally, even the both liberals and fundamentalists cherry-pick the text like crazy. You know, I'm not into liberal Christianity, but it is quite funny that Biblical literalism really didn't become common place until the 1800's. I'm glad at least liberal Christians don't take the Bible literally, even if they do cherry-pick. Why? Well, if we did take the Bible literally then we would all being selling our beloved daughters into slavery, murdering "witches", killing male homosexual couples, having to abandon our loved ones in order to prepare for the coming of Yahweh's kingdom like Jesus commanded his followers to do and women would have to still be considered unclean, just for being on her period which is one of the most natural things in the world.
Joseph Stalin sought to rid Russia of all religions because in his eyes religion was evil and it got in the way of him wanting to establish his Communist utopian society. This reminds me of an atheistic version of Jehovah's Witness theology. Am I the only who notices this? Creepy. Well, not all atheists are like Stalin, just like not all Christians or religious people are like Billy Graham, Pat Robertson, Ann Coulter, Scott Lively, Bryan Fischer, John Hagee or Joyce Meyer. I'm an atheist and I don't agree with much of Communist political ideology. I prefer a democratic society.
I oppose theocratic societies as you can well imagine. I don't want religious leaders trying to dictate my life and imposing on my right to be an individual and to decide for myself what to believe or disbelieve. I'm sure many of you, even those who are religious would agree. I got enough of authoritarian religious fundamentalism and dogmatism from the Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Scientists, Methodists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Orthodox Mormons, Seventh-day Adventists, Presbyterians and Hindus, just to name a few of the religious groups that I have been involved with throughout my 60 years of life. I really don't like seeing it from atheists. Atheists should know better.
Sometimes, we atheists can act authoritarian and behave dogmatically. We need to do better. Especially those of us who were formerly religious. Thanks for reading. I hope it gave you something to think about despite any differences we may have.
Sincerely,
B.W.
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