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 29 November 2009Judges 19: Gang rape, dismemberment, and body part messages
I was going to skip over this story, since it is so damned disgusting and God seemed to have nothing much to do with it (other than inspiring it, that is). And yet, it's in the Bible, so it must be important to him. Maybe a believer that can explain why God likes it so much.
It seems to be based upon Genesis 19, where the just and righteous Lot offers his virgin daughters to a crowd of angel rapers.
 This time, though, the visitor that the men of the city found so attractive was a Levite, not a couple of angels. (As always, see the Brick Testament for the details.)
Now as they were making their hearts merry, behold, the men of the city, certain sons of Belial, beset the house round about, and beat at the door, and spake to the master of the house, the old man, saying, Bring forth the man that came into thine house, that we may know him. Judges 19:22
Can't you just picture it? All the men of a city come to a house and demand to have sex with the new guy in town.
So what do you think the host did when he answered the door? Well, he offered the mob his virgin daughter (and his guest's concubine), of course! It's the polite thing to do. Any just and righteous man would do the same.
Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing. Judges 19:22
But the the men didn't want his virgin daughter, so he gave them the concubine instead.
But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning. Judges 19:25
The next morning, the concubine came back to the house and collapsed at the door.
The Levite opened the door, saw the concubine lying there, and told her to get up. But she didn't answer. So he put her on his donkey and went home.
And when he was come into his house, he took a knife, and laid hold on his concubine, and divided her, together with her bones, into twelve pieces, and sent her into all the coasts of Israel. Judges 19:29
Did you catch that? The Levite cut the concubine into twelve pieces and sent the bloody body parts to the twelve tribes of Israel. (As Brucker points out, the text doesn't even say whether the concubine was alive or dead when her body was dismembered.)
Now that is a strange way to send a message! Someone from each tribe of Israel got a rotting piece of flesh in the mail. What the fuck were they supposed to make of that? (Oh, look Martha, here's a stinking hunk of putrefied abdomen that arrived in the mail parcel post!)
The story ends with this advice:
Consider of it, take advice, and speak your minds. Judges 19:30
Those who do consider it will immediately reject the idea that the Bible was inspired by God. Hopefully, they will then speak their minds.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is nothing in this story that indicates that God disapproves of:
A man having a sex slave (concubine)
A father offering his virgin daughter to a sex-crazed mob
Chopping up bodies (dead or alive)
Sending messages with body parts
It's just a stupid, nasty story that was put in the Bible because it is a stupid, nasty story.
Posted by Steve Wells at 11/29/2009 12:53:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:  
35 comments:
 skanksta said...
Weird how this story gets repeated - it MUST be important - great stuff Steve.
It's been a long 8 days wondering what absurdity you're bringing us next....
Sun Nov 29, 03:11:00 PM 2009 
 busterggi said...
Yahweh sends messages like the Mafia does.
Of course, there are other similarities too.
Sun Nov 29, 04:14:00 PM 2009 
 twillight said...
The strangest part for me was "all the men of the city" went to gangbang their "holy man".
According to the passages they were 700 man. They all fucked the concubine. If all spent 1 minutes with the woman, that'd be 700/60 = 12 hours.
I'm not familiar with lenght between sundown and sunrise (and from that you'd have to deduce the time they spent raming the door), but how did they done it? They entered in a queue, grabing they "testicles" like rolling a porn-movie, or what?
Mon Nov 30, 10:21:00 AM 2009 
 Tim Atheist said...
Shanksta, I'm betting the story is repeated because such a damn disgusting Bible chapter deserved reviewing.
I wonder what the average Christian response is to this section... probably something like "well this was the society back then." This is so pointless and so brutal that someone should go through all the "Christian bookstores" and glue the pages together at this section.
Mon Nov 30, 10:29:00 AM 2009 
 Steve said...
To be honest, the average Christian does not know their Bible & most likely would not be able to offer up a convincing defense of these passages based on personal critical thought; most Christians repeat their pastor's conventions.
It would be interesting to see if prominent Christian apologists, like Josh McDowell, have addressed this issue.
Also, the reason that these atrocities could be committed to women is because the Bible ensconced the idea that a woman was a man's property. A man could do with his property as he pleased, whether it was land, a donkey, cows, his concubines or wives. The whole story of Job demonstrates this by providing a list of property that Job first loses to test his faith and then gets better ones as a reward for keeping that faith.
Disgusting is the only word that comes to mind.
Mon Nov 30, 12:04:00 PM 2009 
 matt311 said...
This story was highlighted in a book I read as an adolescent, The Day They Came to Arrest the Book; it immediately piqued my interest, so I went searching for it...
...and found so much more. Thanks for highlighting this hideous story, Steve.
Mon Nov 30, 01:30:00 PM 2009 
 Kirk Yetton said...
Dead right, there's nothing in this passage that indicates that God disapproves of a man having a concubine, nor of a father offering his virgin daughter to a sex-crazed mob, nor of chopping up bodies, nor of sending messages with body parts. But then, here's nothing in this passage to suggest that he does.
Pretty much everyone in the book of Judges is sinful and depraved and does not have God's approval of their actions. Read the book as a whole in its context. To assume that God approves because his approval isn't expressed is a pretty poor judgement. I know many, many, many people who have never said, for example, that the shooting at Columbine was wrong. By you logic, I should assume that they approve of it, right? Take the book of Judges in context and your assumptions are even more absurd.
Mon Nov 30, 03:04:00 PM 2009 
 3D said...
Blogger Kirk Yetton said...
>>I know many, many, many people who have never said, for example, that the shooting at Columbine was wrong. By you logic, I should assume that they approve of it, right?<<
Wrong. Regular people don't have the power to smite people on the spot for sin. God does, and he does it all the time in the Bible, but never for having concubines.
God's Bible also gives tips for proper care and maintenance of slaves. You would think that wouldn't be an essential portion in the book of a god who is anti-slavery, but it is.
Also, God refers to guys who offer up their daughters to be gang raped as "just and righteous men" so it doesn't get any more condoning than that, does it?
Tue Dec 01, 09:35:00 AM 2009 
 benl2345 said...
Kirk had a good response. If you read chapter 19 from any book and expect to know what's going on you'll miss out. Judges keeps saying that "each man did what was right in his own eyes." The implication was that these were historical events during a wicked time period. That's why they did such vile things. And the point of the hypocritical man cutting up his concubine was to show what they had done to her was wrong (course he let his concubine be raped all night and die to spare himself). Read Judges 20 to see that was when armies gathered to take out the city.
Tue Dec 01, 10:56:00 AM 2009 
 Richardhg said...
Eeeeeeek! Eeeeek! Eeeeeeeek! Flee for your life.
Tue Dec 01, 11:41:00 PM 2009 
 Mike said...
To my fellow Christians who would try to convince this person or those swallowing his lies, I give you this advice...
Revelation 22:11 (NIV)
"Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy."
Maybe we should simply follow he instruction given to the 12 when Jesus sent them out and said to "shake the dust off your feet when you leave their town as a testimony against them." Do not return to try and convince them otherwise. They bring about their own condemnation. These people have received the Word and called it evil, and have so committed blasphemy. You will not see another post from me, as I take my own advice.
Hebrews 10:30-31
Wed Dec 02, 01:10:00 PM 2009 
 Kirk Yetton said...
Steve, you've just completely ignored my point.
3D, the Bible condones slavery as it was at the time of writing. This is not slavery as we think of it today but rather bond slavery. If we employed this idea of slavery to modern times anyone who has a job would be considered a slave. Slaves became slaves voluntarily. There's a passage in the New Testament (I'm sorry, I can't remember which it is, I'll get back to you on that) where Paul condemns kidnapping and where the original text is thought to mean slavery as we think of it. Once again, it's all about reading in context, you can't take a text written 2000 years ago and read it with a modern mindset.
I might also point out the Wilberforce fought in parliament for the abolition of the slave trade because of his Christian faith; he believed that, as all are made equal under God, no one had the right to enslave anyone else.
Regards,
Kirk
Wed Dec 02, 02:35:00 PM 2009 
 Abeille said...
From what I understand, Christians will view this as the man making a sacrifice. While some Christians feel that this was wrong and he should have offered himself instead, they honor the concubine because HER sacrifice brought about change. The reason he sent out the body parts is to send a message that this particular city had wronged him. Not exactly sure how rotting body parts would have conveyed this, but it did. My question - Wasn't it a bad thing to NOT bury the dead properly?
Thu Dec 03, 06:06:00 AM 2009 
 skanksta said...
Kirk does NOT have a good response!
How dare you say that Steve (or any of us) is (are) "taking the bible out of context!"
Let me spell it out.....
HE'S STARTING AT THE BEGINNING AND GOING THROUGH ALL OF GOD'S KILLINGS UNTIL THE END.
What could be fairer than that ?
We've now reached Judges and I'm starting to get 'a context' for how God and his favourites behave. So are the other readers and it isn't nice....
Fri Dec 04, 07:38:00 AM 2009 
 DJ said...
Your article is written as though it should be taken as a truism, and thus is a demonstration of willfully biased ignorance. You had an agenda, and it’s clear, but if you would allow me to comment…
There is nothing in this account that indicates God’s disapproval (or approval) of these actions, but you can easily find moral prescriptions for them if you care to look and approach the Bible in a meaningful way. A common fallacy of atheistic bias towards scripture is the assumption that because something is recorded in the Bible then it is automatically esteemed by God to be morally righteous. This is obviously not the case and it takes a clear agenda to read these things into scripture, it’s known as eisegesis.
That being said, a concubine was a member of the family, respected, and protected by law, not a sex slave as we see in modern Asia or India. The account refers to the man as her husband which denotes responsibility not simply mastery over her. He went to get her back and seems to have been emotionally attached to her. If merely a sex slave he could just buy another…
There is no explicit moral indictment towards the offering of a virgin daughter to a mob of sexually depraved lunatics because the responsibility of a father in Hebrew culture was well understood. The original audience would have been well aware that this was morally reprehensible based on the writings of Moses.
There is no reason to believe that the woman was alive. Being abused overnight (likely physically and sexually) by hundreds of men is all but certain death. Her being non-responsive is also a reason to think that she was dead…
I can’t recall anything in the Bible regarding the chopping of bodies being right or wrong… We do this all the time today as well. We amputate limbs and use cadavers all the time for our own purposes. I think you would have to reject an important aspect of medical science to hold your case here.
I’ll grant that mutilating a dead body for the wrong reasons (IE: Dahmer) and delivering body parts to send a message seem ridiculous, however we are unjust to say that it is being commended at all here because the Bible is silent on it.
When he says to consider this, he is asking them to consider the horror that took place in Gibeah and how to respond. If you read on it leads to the avenging of the women and the Israelites dominate the men who started it all.
All the best.
Sat Dec 05, 10:20:00 AM 2009 
 uzza said...
I should know this, but is there any intelligent reason why
"that we may know him" is interpreted as meaning they want sex with him?
Sat Dec 05, 12:57:00 PM 2009 
 skanksta said...
Ok, Dirk, Kirk, DJ etc...
OMG !! You guys really are an eye-opener...*

re: slavery, rape, stoning, genocide etc. - Can you just stop all the "custom at the time," relativism please v?
This book is THE BIBLE.
It is written by the creator of THE UNIVERSE.
The creator who invented, black holes, mathematics, evolution, particle physics, language DNA, music, sunrise, sliced bread, rainbows and embryology.
As Sam Harris puts it so beautifully,
"HOW good do you think his guide to humanity would be!??"
Do you not think this book SHOULD have transcendence ? Do you not think it should have ADVANCED morality ?
And yet....
you get THIS tome of limiting brutality. This sordid collection of jealousy, random violence and rank unfairness.
Slavery is assumed, stoning is a given. Homophobia is enshrined and genocide is everyday. There is no conception of modern, evolved, compassionate morality, No transcendent inspiration, no challenge to a morality of the future, no inkling of science to be discovered....
It's almost as if it was written by limited bronze age men!

*(We NEVER get people like this in Europe. This must be your 'bible belt' we keep hearing about, lol! How MANY of these people ARE there in the US!? Why aren't they EMBARRASSED to say these things in public ? So fascinating....
Sun Dec 06, 02:04:00 AM 2009 
 Kirk Yetton said...
skangsta, the problem is that the killings in Judges are not God's killings. If you can't see that, you're either not reading contextually or you're not reading it carefully enough. Could it be you're reading into it what you want to read into it.
There are killings in the Bible, some of them quite brutal, which God condones, but those in Judges are not among them.
Mon Dec 07, 09:58:00 AM 2009 
 Brandon said...
To be fair, in the following chapter (judges 20) the Lord made it pretty clear that he wished for all the tribes of Israel to go to war against the Benjaminites, Gibeah being a city of theirs, for vengence. They did so, and nearly wiped the Benjaminites out. That is what the discussion is for: for the tribes to discuss and decide whether to go to war or not.
Of course, the part about offering the women to save the man is rather savage, and I don't mean to defend that, or the cutting up of the concubine later. I'm not even a Christian. I just think you should present the whole story.
Tue Dec 08, 01:21:00 PM 2009 
 matt311 said...
I think he'll get to that in his next update, Brandon.
Damn... I'm gone for a few days, and the Bible-bashers go to town on here; what is it with these nuts? Don't they realize how foolish their attempted rhetoric makes them look?
Wed Dec 09, 04:16:00 AM 2009 
 Brucker said...
Steve: It would be interesting to see if prominent Christian apologists, like Josh McDowell, have addressed this issue.
I found a fairly good (although not deeply analytical) commentary that covers this chapter:
Gibeah's Crime by David Guzik. He points out that the Bible does condemn this event, albeit in the book of Hosea. And of course, at the risk of overdoing it, I repeat the link to my own analysis, in which I share my suspicions that what's going on here is even worse than a surface reading will give you.
Steve: Also, the reason that these atrocities could be committed to women is because the Bible ensconced the idea that a woman was a man's property.
In O.T. times, this was indeed largely true, unfortunately.
skanksta: How dare you say that Steve (or any of us) is (are) "taking the bible out of context!"
Let me spell it out.....
HE'S STARTING AT THE BEGINNING AND GOING THROUGH ALL OF GOD'S KILLINGS UNTIL THE END.
Just because you're using context doesn't mean you're using it correctly. Case in point:
skanksta: We've now reached Judges and I'm starting to get 'a context' for how God and his favourites behave. So are the other readers and it isn't nice....
You're reading right through it with the rest of us, but I don't see where it says that God did anything in this story, nor that these particular people are God's "favourites".
skanksta: Do you not think this book SHOULD have transcendence ? Do you not think it should have ADVANCED morality ?
Sometimes you have to teach morality by giving examples of morality gone wrong. Actually, there's a lot more of that in the Bible than much of anything else, especially in Judges.
Wed Dec 09, 12:57:00 PM 2009 
 busterggi said...
The apologists are out in full force.
Of course, if their god wasn't a homicidal, genocidal, sacrifice-loving, slavery-condoning monster then they wouldn't have to be apologists.
Thu Dec 10, 05:51:00 AM 2009 
 Kirk Yetton said...
skangsta, anything written in history needs to be read in the context of what was meant in that particular period. If you don't do that than your idea of world history must be somewhat bizarre. Don't let your hatred towards Christians and the Bible get in the way of reasonable thinking.
Sat Dec 12, 07:05:00 AM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
Kirk,
the problem is that the killings in Judges are not God's killings.
Do you want to revise this statement now that you know that it isn't true?
Sat Dec 12, 05:15:00 PM 2009 
 Kirk Yetton said...
Are mostly not God's killings.
Sun Dec 13, 07:33:00 AM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
Kirk,
You say (now) that the killings in Judges are mostly not God's killings. Which of the 15 killings that I have attributed to God do you think shouldn't have been included?
You say that God was involved in Samson's killing of 30 guys for their clothes (to punish them for their vanity). Do you also agree that God was involved in the other 14 killings that I have attributed to him? If so, how do you figure that "the killings in Judges are mostly not God's killings?" Is 0 out of 15 most?
Sun Dec 13, 08:57:00 AM 2009 
 skanksta said...
Kirk,
I don't hate Christians - I'm European, (British) so we don't really have any!
Those that we DO have are generally lovely souls that spend their time comforting old ladies, feeding homeless people and restoring churches.
For eg. Verger @ my sister's local church, (she still has such a thing, cos she lives in remote rural area - no such thing in London) asks my sister why she doesn't come to church ? Sister replies, "don't believe in God."
Verger, "I don't think I do really, it's just nice for the community."
Hence sister now goes to church with family and discovers it's just a social thing, for bell ringing and using the village hall. Percentage of congregation that BELIEVE is about 20 apparently. Very high for actual believers, but like I said, she lives in cultural desert in rural North Wales.
It really IS an eye-opener to discover that so many people in the US actually, really BELIEVE and further, that they're not embarrassed by this.
I'm no angry atheist - I love the bible, it's got sex, violence humour, war, drama &c. but I GENUINELY had no idea that people actually BELIEVE it, actually wrestle with their consciences trying to justify it's horrors, actually try and assimilate and understand such brutal bronze age nonsense in to the lives.
Why can't you just pay it lip service and wheel out the good parts for special occasioans - a bit like what we do with the Queen ?
Now, back to this context thingy....
"skangsta, anything written in history needs to be read in the context of what was meant in that particular period."
Yet, funnily enough, I bet you don't let Mo off shagging 9yos so easily ?
God kills a lot of people, accepts huge numbers of sacrifices, (incl. the odd human, lol), starts a few wars, tortures millions with random cruelty.
That is either wrong, or not.
Sun Dec 13, 10:36:00 AM 2009 
 feralboy12 said...
"This is not slavery as we think of it today but rather bond slavery. If we employed this idea of slavery to modern times anyone who has a job would be considered a slave. Slaves became slaves voluntarily."
Does this mean it's OK to beat your employees, as long as they don't die right away? (Exodus 21:20.) If they live for a day or two, there is no punishment, "for the slave is his money."
Fri Feb 12, 02:04:00 PM 2010 
 paul said...
Certainly throughout time men have distorted the stories of any event. I have no doubt that many parts of the records of these events are incomplete. Along with that multiple interpretations of the meanings of these stories, real or imagined are presented leaving the majority to rely on their on learning and understanding.
Even in our day men sacrifice women by abusing them for the men's own lustful purposes or gain. Use of drugs, need of food and shelter, even force is used to get women to submit to acts they would not ordinarily do.
We as a society are slowly making our way to an acceptance of vial practices which will ultimately doom us and our posterity.
Mon Jun 07, 11:52:00 PM 2010 
 Jackie said...
The Book of Judges is a summation of what is what like in those days ... there was no king in Israel and every man did what was right in his own eyes. To infer that God condones these heinous acts is dangerous (for you). Sin has entered the world and death through sin. The creation groans for a time yet to come when God will restore His creation. But, this is only through the Rule of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior. I wish those who have torn God's character apart based on this hard to understand and repulsive section of Scripture would be as avid in reading the entirety of the Bible. In Judges 19, you get a glimpse of man at his worst .... Yet, in spite of man's horrific condition, God so loved the world that He was willing to give His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him (Jesus Christ) would have eternal life.
Sat Sep 18, 06:06:00 AM 2010 
 Lilliana Grey said...
I didn't read the comments so somebody else might have mentioned this. The story doesn't end in that chapter. It goes on to the next. Remember the chapters in the verses were added thousands of years later. Always read the whole book so that it can be taken in context. Chapter 20 and 21 are part of this same tale. The people try to set right what happened. (Not that they succeed.) The last verse of the last chapter sums up the whole book. "In those days Israel had no king; everyone did as they saw fit." Meaning the whole book of Judges is about people do stupid evil stuff if they have no guidance. That's why it is in scripture. That's its point.
Sat Jun 15, 06:51:00 AM 2013 
 Azael said...
(Part 1 of 2)
My take on this is a bit different, having investigated this particular event
extensively given its extreme importance as the catalyst that caused all the
Tribes of Israel to do the absolutely unthinkable: gang up and slaughter an
entire Tribe (with the exception of only about 600 men). This genocide of
Benjamin included all men, women and children... no one was spared! And all
because one man claimed his concubine was (gang)raped by a bunch of hoodlums in
one small town? The more one examines this story, the more it unravels before
your eyes.
The concubine, we're told, plays the "harlot" against her husband (meaning she
found a beau/lover) and left him, apparently for this beau/lover. Yet... he knew
instead that she had gone to her own parents' house in Bethlehem. And apparently
the husband knew this because he traveled straight there to get her... thus
indicating he knew she hadn't "eloped" or gone off with anyone. Thus... this was
an apparent lie. Further, the most plausible reason why a wife (concubine =
lesser wife) would leave her husband and return home to her parents is if she
were dissatisfied with married life. And given the importance of marriage there
and how powerful the patriarchal system was, it is reasonable to assume she must
have been extremely dissatisfied of his treatment of her to risk bucking the
system to that degree.
Next, we are told the father greets him warmly and is happy that he has come to
recover his daughter ... and yet, he goes to great pains to try to delay as long
as possible their departure... by at least a few days. And he initially
succeeds. This would seem to indicate that despite the Biblical narrative, the
father was not at all happy to see the husband and wanted to delay as long as
possible her return with him to the life she had with him. Both her leaving him
and the father's doing all he can to delay her return to/with him would seem to
evidence that she was not treated well and perhaps had suffered abuse.
Next we find the (loving) couple returning home and ending up in the town of
Gibeah... with nowhere to sleep. Darkness has already fallen and both he and his
concubine simple sat in the town square in the center of the town... for all to
see. And in all the time they sit there, no one bothers them at all. No
hoodlums are mentioned cruising the streets looking for a convenient gangrape.
Nothing! Then an old man happens by and invites the couple into his home.
Then we find the real meat-and-potatoes of the husband's story (remember... all
of this is his account, only, as he claimed things happened!). While
"celebrating" with the old man inside the house, these "sons of Belial"
mysteriously appear and demand to have sex with the husband. So... as they
apparently hadn't seen the couple when they were right there in the town square
and didn't accost them when they were going to the old man's house, how the hell
did they know where this visiting couple was after they had already entered the
house some time before and were, at the time, "celebrating" with food and drink?
Anyway... let's keep going.
Sun Sep 08, 06:51:00 AM 2013 
 Azael said...
(Part 2 of 2)
These apparently gay hoodlums are then offered both the concubine and the old man's virgin daughter... and they are fine with this and take the concubine and rape her all night long. In the morning, they let her go and she walks back to the old man's house and falls down at the door where she remained until "full daylight." Only then does her husband awaken, apparently having slept fitfully all night long and without a care in the world (so we're to believe), opens the door, walks out, sees her on the ground and tells her to get up so they can go. The account doesn't say she is dead, only that she doesn't answer him and is apparently either asleep or too traumatized to reply. So... he picks her up and "placed her on the donkey" (implying she rode the donkey and was not a corpse laying over it).
This "loving" husband then travels back home with her and, upon arrival, grabs a knife, hacks her into 12 pieces and sends one piece of her to each of the 12 Tribes of Israel. When the outraged Tribes ask him to explain what happened, he claimed the "men of Gibeah" (not just a few of them) tried to "kill" him (not have sex with him) and then blamed them for killing his concubine when it had been he who hacked her into pieces.
The Tribe of Benjamin... apparently knowing all of this was a lie... refused to deliver up the men accused of doing this by this one man. Most likely, they had already spoken with the old man and with others in Gibeah and knew it was all a concocted story and weren't about to let this one man's lies result in the execution of many innocent men.
And based on that alone... all the other Tribes ganged up on the Tribe of Benjamin and slaughtered EVERYONE in all the Benjamite cities until only 600 men remained. Only then did they realize what they had done and stopped the slaughter.
All because of an abusive husband who couldn't stand that one of his many wives (she was a concubine, thus one of his lesser wives) had "dared" to leave him... and so had gone to her childhood home, to which he knew she had returned, demanded her back, which her father would have had to comply with though he did all he could to delay her departure... and then as soon as he had her in his custody and returned home, he murdered her out of vengeance and spite... and then, so as not to run afoul of the Law of Moses, he blamed it on strangers... and deliberately and slyly concocted a story highly reminiscent of Genesis 19 (when "angels" entered Sodom, also were to spend the night in the town square, also were invited to spend the night in Lot's home, and also were accosted inside the home by gay rapists to whom Lot attempted to offer his virgin daughters). This husband knew if he could concoct such a story well enough, everyone would view the men of Gibeah with the same fury and hatred they already did for those "Sodomites" whom God destroyed.
And that is exactly what happened... and the Tribe of Benjamin was effectively wiped out.
... and now you... the "rest of the story" (at least as the evidences would appear to reveal).
Sun Sep 08, 06:53:00 AM 2013 
 Azael said...
Of course, this still doesn't quite explain why all 11 Tribes would:
1. Believe this one man's account above all others and to the point of willingly slaughtering an entire Tribe
2. Consider the life of one woman of such importance that they would slaughter tens of thousands of their own kinsmen, kinswomen and their children to avenge that one woman (additionally, women weren't that important to them, any way... so why the outrage to that degree?!)

There were scandals and murders and rapes all the time in Israel... yet none ever prompted all the Tribes to gang up and slaughter another Tribe. So why now? And why Benjamin?
Was something else going on here? The evidences point strongly to that possibility... and one that links the Tribe of Benjamin directly with the descendants of the "Fallen Angels" were were alleged to have been living in Sodom and Gomorrah when "destroyed" ... and, thus, made the lie told linking the alleged "crime" with those same "Sodomites."


Sun Sep 08, 07:12:00 AM 2013 
 Metatron said...
I would then ask this...Is it unlike God to judge you, whereby you judge Him, in action or lack thereof, especially without the understanding of the times that these actions were condoned? You would seek to spite the Word, claiming you know more than a Christian, whereby citing lack of faith, you display faith? You believe those words true, but claim it all a fallecy? Were I to call you Brother soley on being of the same creator would be just as sinful as condemning you for the sins I commit myself. I would ask that our actions speak louder than the words we throw around carelessly. Hate only brings about more hate. In good faith I pray you find wisdom and serenity. Accept that which you have no understanding, if not to bring about peace, and just that. Rather than seeking to poison the well. I am devout to no faith, as man has made these twisted for profit and fame. I simply seek to make peace as all men and women should, if not for faith, than for humanity's sake.
Thu Sep 26, 12:18:00 AM 2013 
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 21 November 2009Psalm 109ers: The new face of the Republican Party
You've heard of the birthers, the teabaggers, the 9/12ers.
Now we have the Psalm 109ers.
It's the new face of the Republican Party. Praying for people to die, starting with Barack Obama.
The Republican Party is embracing the hatred in the Bible.


Posted by Steve Wells at 11/21/2009 01:21:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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5 comments:
 twillight said...
In Hungary we have an equally perverted news: the government proclaimed in verbal some anti-racism declaration, and they finished the sentence with this: "and because of this we should not say anything against the christian, jew and muslim (etc.) religions too".
My reaction was: what? Don't say anything against the 3 nazi religion?
Sat Nov 21, 04:19:00 PM 2009 
 skanksta said...
Steve, I LOVE your blog - best thing on the web. For some reason I've never taken the time to tell you, but you have another silent fan.
I feel really sorry for your readers that have to wrestle with God's cruelty and all the other mental gymnastics and I urge to be gentle and supportive of them. As a European it was a real eye-opener to realise that people in the US still BELIEVE this stuff - I just think it's kinda funny...
Mon Nov 23, 11:34:00 AM 2009 
 Freddy said...
People all over the world believe in Jesus and Muhammad....it's not just in the US.
The biggest problem for our politics is that the Republicans use religion to maintain their stranglehold on their base of voters (or actually, it's the other way around) and the Democrats use religion to say "Me too" and hang on to older voters that are old school Dems that won't give up on Jesus.
The faith of Muslims and Christians now has the power to kill multitudes of people in an instant, yet we continue to suffer it with a nod and a wink. FREDDY
Tue Nov 24, 01:46:00 PM 2009 
 matt311 said...
As for me, I think it's kind of terrifying, especially with the so-called "feast of goodwill" coming up.
Tue Nov 24, 11:36:00 PM 2009 
 skanksta said...
Yeah, of course they do, but the difference is... in Europe our politicians would never dare to claim to talk to God - we'd think they were insane = big vote loser. A Mormon could NOT get anywhere near The Cabinet, for example and
Tony Blair's popularity sunk through the floor when he tried to play up his Catholicism. His spin doctor (media adviser), famously screamed at him before a public appearance, "Tony, we don't DO God!"
Fri Nov 27, 03:31:00 AM 2009 
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 20 November 2009Sarah Palin is praying for me
OK, not just for me, but for all of her "lonely, shallow" critics.
I wonder if she and her "prayer warriors" use Psalm 109 as a model for her prayer.

Posted by Steve Wells at 11/20/2009 04:38:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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3 comments:
 Urbain said...
Good one re: Psalms 109!
CafePress has decided to ban the imprecatory prayer messages on its merchandise.
Sun Nov 22, 03:04:00 PM 2009 
 Ian G. said...
http://jeffreygoldberg.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/11/sarah_palin_predicts_that_the.php
Sarah Palin's religious views are far more frightening when you read the above link and realize that the pea-brain has a non-zero chance of one day being in control of nuclear weapons.
Mon Nov 23, 02:43:00 PM 2009 
 alexanderblake said...
Ian, that is pretty damn scary.. It is fun to make fun of Palin, but to imagine her actually running this country... Frightening..
Thu Nov 26, 12:06:00 AM 2009 
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 19 November 2009The Massacre of the Peaceful, Unsuspecting People
OK, enough messing around. I've got to get back to God's killings in Judges.
What do you think about this one? Should it be included on God's list?
 The story begins with the tribe of Dan (one of the 12 tribes of Israel) looking for a nice place to live. So they sent out five men to find some land.
On their way, they stopped at a Micah's house and asked his priest to ask God where they should go to find some land. The priest told them to just go looking for it, and that God would be with them wherever they went.
So they left there and came to a place called Laish, where the people lived peaceful, secure, carefree lives.
The five men ... came to Laish, and saw the people that were therein, how they dwelt careless, ... quiet and secure; and there was no magistrate in the land, that might put them to shame in any thing. Judges 18:7
Then the five men returned and told the other Danites to attack Laish, saying that God had given it into their hands.
When ye go, ye shall come unto a people secure, and to a large land: for God hath given it into your hands; a place where there is no want of any thing that is in the earth. Judges 18:10
So they round up 600 soldiers and march off toward Laish.
(On the way, they stop off at Micah's place, steal his idols and priest, and then proceed toward Laish.)
When they get to Laish, they kill all of the peaceful, unsuspecting people, burn their city, and take their land.
The children of Dan ... came unto Laish, unto a people that were at quiet and secure: and they smote them with the edge of the sword, and burnt the city with fire. Judges 18:26-27
It was just another bible massacre. But was God responsible for it?
I think there's enough evidence to show that God approved of the massacre, but did he help the Danites do it or just sit back and enjoy the show?
Posted by Steve Wells at 11/19/2009 09:20:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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9 comments:
 Tim Atheist said...
I think it works. :P
Lol at the name "Dan" what first came to mind was this asshole: http://www.blogger.com/profile/11745259115723860852
Thu Nov 19, 10:44:00 PM 2009 
 matt311 said...
You know what this reminds me of? Columbus's conquering and exploitation of the peaceful Arawak natives of Jamaica, including the part where he kills the lot of them, all the while believing that "God hath given such land into his hands"; bloody awful, to have such a terrible book and verse inspire such a horrific deed.
Fri Nov 20, 12:29:00 AM 2009 
 Belle said...
You are right to think it probably shouldn't be included based on what is in there. The Israelites (or at least those who admitted this into their canon) were assuming (and we know assume makes an ass out of u and me) that, because God didn't punish them for the massacre, that it was OK with it. As we know, God is really responsible for all deaths anyway but you should probably include this only if you are going to attribute every other death to him as well because it's on that level of responsibility only, I think. It IS rather borderline, though, as you've suggested but there is no obvious supernatural power used. It's up to you, of course.
Fri Nov 20, 01:30:00 AM 2009 
 twillight said...
This is no different from the others, only in one aspect:
This time He just gave a little independence for his aria race to choose the target. Otherwise the killing is made by Him as always.
(I don't know why exactly, but I got that fed-up with the Bible at the last chapter of Revelations as you seem to have been (judged from the SAB-margins) Steve.)
Fri Nov 20, 01:38:00 AM 2009 
 Jerad said...
I agree with Twilight. The priest said that god would be there wherever they decided to go.
Fri Nov 20, 04:18:00 PM 2009 
 busterggi said...
Yes, the priest said that and the Israelites were nice enough to raid his home & rob him as a thank-you present.
What good Pre-Christian boys!
Sat Nov 21, 06:39:00 AM 2009 
 Brandon Carl said...
Hey, wait a minute? Wasn't this place already called Dan in Genesis 14:14? (Thank you, Thomas Paine)
;-)
Sat Nov 21, 10:39:00 AM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
Darn! Another contradiction.
Thanks, Brandon. I've added it.
Sat Nov 21, 12:53:00 PM 2009 
 Brucker said...
I don't see why this is necessarily a contradiction. "Dan" is a simple name, and there's little indication I can see that this has to be the same city. Now, if you wanted to make the claim against Joshua 19:47, there seems to be something more likely there, as "Leshem" might be a variant of "Laish", and the story is similar.
Mon Nov 30, 10:05:00 AM 2009 
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 19 November 2009A Prayer for Christian Terrorists: Let his days be few, his children fatherless, his wife a widow
Have you seen this bumper sticker yet?

It looks pretty harmless doesn't it? Pray for Obama, with a reference to the Psalms. What could be more harmless than the Psalms?
Unless you've read the Psalms, that is.
Here is the verse that is referred to on the bumper sticker.
Let his days be few; and let another take his office. Psalm 109:8
Like almost everything else in the Bible, it's not too clear, is it?
When applied to Barack Obama, it could just be asking God to help Sarah Palin defeat him in 2012.
Or it could be praying for his death now, natural or otherwise.
But let's look at the context.
Here is the verse immediately after the verse on the bumper sticker.
Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow. Psalm 109:9
Well, that clears it up, doesn't it? The prayer is either asking God to kill Obama, or asking God to inspire someone else to do it for him.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
21 November 2009 Note: Cafe Press has banned all Psalm 109 merchandise.
(Don't you love it when the Bible is recognized as hate speech?)
Posted by Steve Wells at 11/19/2009 05:37:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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10 comments:
 Jerad said...
For some reason the fundies seem to think this is an appropriate time to take quotes out of context.
Odd how the times to do so and the times not to always afford them the greatest leeway huh?
Thu Nov 19, 07:03:00 PM 2009 
 Tim Atheist said...
They are ridiculous. They claim that the world is against them and then take direct shots at our president. Regardless of who he is, these (supposedly) adults should know better.
It's like my family and the "atheists are fools who say in their hearts there is no God", they take it out of context and use it as a rant.
If only they weren't so cowardly as to hide behind their religious text so they can be struck down for what they say.
Thu Nov 19, 09:09:00 PM 2009 
 matt311 said...
I haven't seen that bumper sticker yet, but if I do someday soon, I'll rip it off the first car I see it on; it's fuckin' stealth-evil crap (like a snake in the grass, to use an appropriate-enough analogy), and I bet ol' Yahweh (were he real, that is) would be loving every word of it.
Fri Nov 20, 12:25:00 AM 2009 
 Klasco said...
Ah yes more love from Christianity
Fri Nov 20, 07:33:00 AM 2009 
 Brucker said...
This is awful, and despite what Jerad says, I'm not sure it's being taken out of context. (Many may really wish Obama dead!) My fellow Christians (who as everyone knows are largely Republicans) really seem to have this genuine fear of Obama that as far as I can tell is based on nothing whatsoever except maybe the insane rantings of various talking heads on Fox News.
I've got to remind my fellow Christians of a few important scriptures, especially this one:
Romans 13:1-7
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
To paraphrase and put it in modern context, according to Paul:
* Barack Obama is God's minister
* Those who resist Obama are in danger of damnation
* Only evil people should fear Obama
* Stop complaining and pay your #$&*ing taxes!
Fri Nov 20, 10:43:00 AM 2009 
 Jerad said...
Oh, I don't think it's out of context, I've just seen that argument by fundies used in other stories.
Fri Nov 20, 04:16:00 PM 2009 
 busterggi said...
And yet those same fundies have said that Dubya was appointed by Jesus because only Jesus can choose our Earthly rulers.
Hypocrites, each & every one of 'em.
Sat Nov 21, 06:42:00 AM 2009 
 I Am said...
Good points, busterggi and Brucker. Of course, I doubt they see the contradiction of thinking everyone had to support the president because he was God's hand-picked gift to Man, but that Obama should die because apparently God is not longer hand-picking presidents? Does God only pick every other president and let Satan pick the others??
Even if it were pointed out to them how illogical their thinking is, I think they're too far gone for them for it to make any difference.
Sat Nov 21, 11:42:00 AM 2009 
 v_quixotic said...
So Brucker,
Wes Hitler god's minister?
Are those that resisted Hitler and died now roasting in Hell?
Were the resisters evil for opposing Hitler?
Paul is no better than Psalm 109 when it comes providing guidance for political life.
[/godwin]
Sun Nov 22, 04:46:00 AM 2009 
 Brucker said...
I'm not overly concerned about Godwin's Law, sometimes the Third Reich is an excellent case in point to bring up, and indeed, I think this is one of them. After all, you're quite right that the passage I quoted brings up some difficult questions.
The thing of it is, Paul (and Peter elsewhere) told their fellow Christians that they had to submit themselves to authority even during times when the Roman Emperor was in the habit of putting Christians to death for entertainment purposes. I don't think I have an easy answer for what you're asking, but a Christian (or any other theist who believes in an omniscient and omnipotent deity) has to have serious questions about why God would have allowed the Holocaust.
Of course the nice thing about the case of Obama is that living in a country with the first amendment and a democratic process for our politics, there are ways to oppose Obama and be entirely within the law and morality.
Sun Nov 22, 09:31:00 AM 2009 
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Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
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Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
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 17 November 2009Beauty Pageants, Breast Implants, and Sex Tapes (What the Bible says about Carrie Prejean)
Here are some quotes from Carrie Prejean's interview with Christianity Today -- along with some stupid stuff I found in the Bible.

"I think you can be a Christian and compete in a pageant."
That could be. But, as usual, the Bible is far from clear about this.
On the one hand, there is Esther, who became queen by winning a raunchy beauty/sex contest (As Misty pointed out in the comments and I had completely forgotten). Here is her story.
King Ahasuerus throws a party and encourages his guests to drink to excess. Then, when they are all drunk, he orders Queen Vashti to show her stuff before him and his guests. Esther 1:7-11
Vashti refuses to entertain the king's drunken guests by dancing before them. For this she is no longer to be queen, to be replaced by someone better (prettier). 1:12-19
So "all the fair young virgins" throughout the kingdom are brought before the king, and the one that "pleaseth" the king the most will replace Vashti. 2:2-4
When it was Esther turn to "go in unto the king," she pleases him the most. So, having won the sex contest, she is made queen in Vashti's place. 2:8-17


On the other hand, here's some stuff from the New Testament that might be a problem for Christian beauty pageant contestants.
I will that ... women adorn themselves in modest apparel ... not with braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array. 1 Timothy 2:8-9
Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel. 1 Peter 3:3

(Well, at least she doesn't have braided hair!)
"I don't see anywhere in the Bible where it says you shouldn't get breast implants."
Carrie might be right about that. For example, here's a case where God brags about helping a woman enhance her "ornaments". Heck, he even personally fashioned her breasts for her! (God is a hair dresser and a breast enhancer. Who knew?)
I [God] have caused thee to ... come to excellent ornaments: thy breasts are fashioned, and thine hair is grown. Ezekiel 16:6
And here's a case where the Bible expresses concern for a woman's small breasts. (If breast implants were available at the time, the problem would have been solved.)
We have a little sister, and she hath no breasts: what shall we do for our sister in the day when she shall be spoken for? Song of Solomon 8:8
And in this verse, her big sister brags about her big breasts.
My breasts like towers. Song of Solomon 8:10
So score this one for Carrie. God likes big breasts, natural or not.
"There is a video out there of me."
(According to RadarOnline.com, there are at least 8 of them, each showing her performing solo sex acts.)
God might have a beef with Carrie on this one, depending on what kind of props she used in her videos.
"Thou hast ... madest to thyself images of men, and didst commit whoredom with them." Ezekiel 16:17
And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks. Jeremiah 3:9
They have seen her nakedness: yea, she sigheth, and turneth backward. Lamentations 1:8-9
So, on the whole, I think Carrie should be careful. God does some nasty stuff to women when he thinks they've misbehaved.
Here's just one example from Ezekiel.
The nakedness of thy whoredoms shall be discovered, both thy lewdness and thy whoredoms .... Thou shalt even drink it and suck it out ... and pluck off thine own breasts: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD. Ezekiel 23:29-34
Posted by Steve Wells at 11/17/2009 12:45:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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10 comments:
 Misty said...
What about Esther? Wasn't she a beauty queen? I mean, literally? Out with Vashti and her morals and in with the hottest virgin in the land for the queen! I think that Prejean may have some Biblical precedence for her chosen profession.
Tue Nov 17, 02:49:00 PM 2009 
 twillight said...
Wow, you really "know" the Bible!
Tue Nov 17, 03:05:00 PM 2009 
 Baconsbud said...
I liked how she said that no where in the bible does it say you can't have implants. If someone says the bible doesn't say abortions are wrong or that the bible doesn't say two same sex can get married, it sure makes the extremist go nuts with their wild interpretations.
Tue Nov 17, 03:26:00 PM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
Hey thanks, Misty. I completely forgot about Esther! I'll add something about that later tonight.
Tue Nov 17, 04:24:00 PM 2009 
 Brucker said...
I think your first point is a valid one entirely; the fact that she doesn't have braided hair is not the point, I'm pretty sure Paul and Peter are saying that you shouldn't use fancy looks to impress people. I will say that I don't think Paul is giving a command so much as practical advice for good Christian living. Prejean is setting a poor example at best.
While you're thinking about Esther, I'd like to point out about that story that Esther was essentially ordered by the king to compete in a pageant, which makes for special circumstances, as the Bible does say that people are to respect authority. The only authority that Prejean is showing any respect to is Donald Trump. (Not my idea of an authority worth debasing yourself for.)
Oh, and Baconsbud's point is excellent as well.
Wed Nov 18, 08:06:00 AM 2009 
 Garrett said...
If it is a matter of interpretation, I would say from a christian point of view breast implants are probally a big no no. Christians beLIEve the body is a temple. The bible does not directly say Implants but it does mention tattoos or body piercings witch give us insight to that gods desires
Lev. 19:28- No Scarification or cuts in the body and no Tattoos
Exodus 21:6 + Deut 15:17 refers to piercings as a sign of slavery
The best way for a Christians to look at it is found in 1 Corinthians 6:19-20
“Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.”
Basically keep your body the way god made you don’t mutilate and distort gods perfect creation. No cosmetic surgery of any kind you are born the way god intended. It could all be a part of god’s plan and no one know god’s plan.
So if god made you flat chested, bow-legged, with a severe over bite, drooping eyelid that constantly covers your Lazy eye, 10 Abnormally size toes and 11 webbed fingers yes even the sixth finger on you left hand, a severe split lip, abnormal development of the face or skull, Born without a left outer ear and your right ear is just a lump of flesh, and large growth birthmarks that cause disfigurement. It is just the way god wanted you to be.
All natural birth defects another part of gods perfect creation.
P.S. Ezekiel 16:6 god only likes real breasts that he makes. Fake breasts just don’t feel right to god.
Wed Nov 18, 09:59:00 AM 2009 
 RR said...
Some good stuff...
I think god was a misogynist ... seems pretty evident to me.
Thu Nov 19, 11:26:00 AM 2009 
 nazani said...
I never understood his issue with braided hair until I looked at pictures of Roman hairstyles. I can only imagine that it would have taken all day to create one of the complex braided styles, and I hope the hairdresser would have been well paid. The good news- the 'do would have lasted about two weeks.
Wed Apr 14, 04:35:00 AM 2010 
 Linda said...
Hi, I just want to clarify what the whole little sister wall thing means.
The "wall" is a chaste woman.
The "door" is the loose, immoral one.
If the young sister, who is 12 years or younger by the description, is getting into trouble - if she starts acting like a door, they will protect her. Like a good older brother or father should do, to prevent trouble down the road.
If she is a wall, stays chaste, she will be honored and rewarded by "palace of silver" - figuratively, with prosperity of life, or of heart.
"in the day when she shall be spoken for" <- it was dishonorable in that society to not be a virgin in arranged marriage. Laugh at that if you want, but you have to respect others' cultures, because look at this one. Loose living has caused pain, disease, divorce etc. Even nature says promiscuity is wrong via VD etc.
Then the woman says she is a wall, but has breasts, this signifies she is fully matured. She has remained a chaste virgin through her young womanhood. That's desirable to her husband, her lover, her spouse.
I don't think anyone can argue that someone saving themselves for marriage is an honorable thing, and a great gift to the one that finds them.
Thanks for listening.
Linda
Sat Nov 20, 09:39:00 AM 2010 
 Eimile said...
I think many people believe that Esther is not exactly a good role model. One interpretation of the book of Esther is that God used her despite being promiscuous in order to save the nation of Israel.
Also, many of these verses are taken out of context. You must consider the cultural and historical background. Not just apply "words" to today's circumstances. Principals are much more important.
Mon Mar 11, 04:45:00 AM 2013 
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 11 November 2009Samson kills 3000 in a suicide terrorist attack
 After Samson finished killing 1000 men with a jawbone of an ass, he had sex with a prostitute.
Then went Samson to Gaza, and saw there an harlot, and went in unto her. Judges 16:1
At midnight he left the prostitute and ripped out the doors and gate posts of the city and carried them to the top of a hill.
Samson lay till midnight, and arose at midnight, and took the doors of the gate of the city, and the two posts, and went away with them, bar and all, and put them upon his shoulders, and carried them up to the top of an hill that is before Hebron. Judges 16:3
Then Samson saw and fell in love with Delilah.
Afterward ... he loved a woman ... whose name was Delilah. Judges 16:4
Now Delilah was paid by the Philistines to find the magical source of Samson's strength and to figure out how he could be restrained. So she asked Samson three times about it, while some Philistines hid in another room.
The first time he said that he'd become as weak as any other man if he were tied up with bowstrings. So she did that and then shouted, "Hey Samson, the Philistines are coming!" But he broke the bowstrings as though they were burnt strings.
She asked again and he told her to use ropes. So she tied him with ropes and then shouted, "Hey Samson, the Philistines are coming!" But he broke the ropes like they were threads.
She asked him a third time, and he told her to weave his seven braids into a cloth and fasten the whole mess to the wall. So she did that and then shouted, "Hey Samson (you dumb shit), the Philistines are coming!" But he broke out of that one, too.
But Delilah didn't give up. She kept pestering him until finally Samson told her the true source of his strength. It was his hair. If his hair was shaved off, he'd become as weak as any other man.
So when Samson fell asleep on her lap, she cut his hair. Then the Philistines captured Samson, gouged out his eyes, and put him in prison.
Later at one of their big parties, the Philistines brought Samson out to entertain them. Here's what happened.
Now the house was full of ... about three thousand men and women ... And Samson called unto the LORD, and said, O Lord God .. strengthen me ... that I may be at once avenged of the Philistines for my two eyes ... and the house fell upon the lords, and upon all the people that were therein. So the dead which he slew at his death were more than they which he slew in his life. Judges 16:27-30

This was the first suicide terrorist act. It resulted in the deaths of 3000 civilian men and women. God approved of it and gave Samson the strength to do it. And although the Bible doesn't say so, there are unconfirmed reports that Samson shouted "God is great" as the walls came tumbling down.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
God's next killing
Posted by Steve Wells at 11/11/2009 08:22:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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13 comments:
 matt311 said...
You sort of skimmed over the hilarity of Samson not going along with the deception every time and pretending to be weak (meaning he forgets stuff very easily, but the whole horror of his act still doesn't blunt the fact that, in every Bible I once owned (yes, even a children's illustrated Bible), the suicide attack was prominently noted as a good thing... and Israelis wonder where Palestinians get the gall to bring down buildings today.
Thu Nov 12, 12:48:00 AM 2009 
 Fleegman said...
This is such bad story telling. He made it with a prostitute, and then ripped the doors off of the city and carried them to the top of the hill.
Why? Was he high?
Each time he told this other woman - whom he loved immediately after meeting her at the top of the hill, naturally - how to surpass his strength, she did it to him. So he goes ahead and tells her his real secret.
Why? Was he an idiot? And how did he know that his hair was his strength?
Even this tiny story has so many holes in it, a monkey jumping up and down on a keyboard wouldn't be hard pressed to deliver a better narrative.
Someone give me strength...
Thu Nov 12, 01:49:00 AM 2009 
 twillight said...
Well, all in all that WAS entertainment...
Thu Nov 12, 05:14:00 AM 2009 
 busterggi said...
I've always wondered 1) why would Samson's strength come from a magical physical characteristic & 2) why would anyone be stupid enough to tell their weakness to someone who's obviously trying to harm them?
If these concepts were original to the Hebrews & not stolen from one of their neighbors like most of their other stories then they should have stuck to stealing.
Thu Nov 12, 05:37:00 AM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
Hey thanks, matt311. I expanded the story a bit to include the "Hey Samson, the Philistines are coming!" stuff.
I don't know. Somehow the story seems made up to me. But I guess it must have happened just like it says because it's in the Bible! (Right Brucker?)
Thu Nov 12, 12:25:00 PM 2009 
 twillight said...
Actually Steve, the story is very much like the stories of Heracles, but without the clever bits.
Thu Nov 12, 01:19:00 PM 2009 
 Andrew said...
@Fleegman: Delilah pulls the old "if you really loved me you'd do it" trick on Samson in 16:15. The poor guy didn't have a chance..
Fri Nov 13, 08:15:00 AM 2009 
 Ian G. said...
3,000 people murdered in a religiously-inspired suicide attack that toppled a huge building? Gee, where have I heard that before.....
Mon Nov 23, 02:37:00 PM 2009 
 benl2345 said...
The reason Samson told things to Delilah was because we men turn into jello around women we are attracted to. We say and do many stupid things on this account.
That's why many men throw away a great family and marriage for a pretty, young affair. Samson kept caving into their requests as they pressed with tears, etc. Fleegman: Judges 13:3-5, 16:17 referred to the Naziritic vow which includes not cutting your hair.
Plus, Samson so rarely pursued the Lord he can hardly be hailed as one of the most godly men in the Bible.
One of the biggest issues you all have is "is it right for God to intentionally kill people?" Or, "would a loving God kill people."
I say yes. Not enough room here to explain it, but read the rest of the Bible to see why.
Most of the rest of these posts are superfluous details.
Tue Dec 01, 11:14:00 AM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
benl2345,
Most of the rest of these posts are superfluous details.
Really ben? Then most of the Bible is just superfluous detail.
Fri Dec 11, 11:19:00 AM 2009 
 Rob said...
"Not enough room here to explain it, but read the rest of the Bible to see why."
I think it's safe to say Mr. Wells has read the bible, probably many times, and obviously more closely and with more scrutiny than your average Christian.
Tue Dec 22, 07:23:00 AM 2009 
 Stephen said...
Blogger benl2345 said...
"Not enough room here to explain it, but read the rest of the Bible to see why."
But it probably has to be an "inspired" reading, doesn't it? So no matter how many times Steve Wells has read the book, he just doesn't get it. Am I close? <_<
@ matt311: Yes! I just checked my copy of "The Junior Bible", by Edgar J. Goodspeed, given to me by my grandfather (a presbyterian minister) in December of 1951. I was just over one year old. The story makes the killing seem like a grand and good deed. Even as a child, I thought these stories were stupid.
Steve Weeks
Tue May 10, 08:52:00 PM 2011 
 Hank S. said...
I was wondering about the Samson being an idiot thing, too. Then I found this:
http://quillandnail.wordpress.com/2007/04/05/samson-stupid-or-arrogant-or-both/
In a nutshell:
1. His strength came from God, not from his hair. His hair was a symbol of his devotion to God, not the secret to his strength.
2. He did not expect his strength to leave him - he took it (and God) for granted.
3. God took his strength away from him because Samson arrogantly thought his strength would never leave him, even if he broke his vows to God.
4. After Samson was weakened and blinded, he was humbled and asked God for His help, which was granted.
Tue May 07, 05:51:00 PM 2013 
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 09 November 2009The Spirit of the Lord came upon Samson and he killed 1000 men with the jawbone of an ass
In my last post, I described how Samson's brief (week-long) marriage to a Philistine woman was prearranged by God so that Samson would murder 30 Philistines for their clothes. That was the first chapter of Samson's life (Judges 14). Here's the next.
After Samson murdered the 30 Philistines, he went his wife's house to have sex with her. He even brought a young goat along to pay her for her services.
Samson visited his wife with a kid; and he said, I will go in to my wife into the chamber. Judges 15:1
But then her father had to tell him the bad news: he had given Samson's wife to one of his friends because he thought that he "hated" her.
And her father said, I verily thought that thou hadst utterly hated her; therefore I gave her to thy companion. Judges 15:2a
His father-in-law suggested that Samson just take his younger daughter. Heck, she's prettier anyway.
Is not her younger sister fairer than she? take her, I pray thee, instead of her. Judges 15:2b
But Samson had a better idea. An idea that only one of God's special heroes could come up with. He'd catch 300 foxes, tie their tails together, light them on fire, and set them loose in the Philistine's grain fields.
And Samson went and caught three hundred foxes, and took firebrands, and turned tail to tail, and put a firebrand in the midst between two tails. Judges 15:4
When the Philistines found out about it, they burned to death Samson's wife and father-in-law.
Then the Philistines said, Who hath done this? And they answered, Samson, the son of the Timnite, because he had taken his wife, and given her to his companion. And the Philistines came up, and burnt her and her father with fire. Judges 15:2b
In response, Samson smote the Philistines "hip and thigh" with a great slaughter. (I'm not including this killing on God's list, since the story doesn't tell us that "the Spirit of the Lord came upon him" or otherwise directly say that God was involved.)
And Samson said unto them, Though ye have done this, yet will I be avenged of you, and after that I will cease. And he smote them hip and thigh with a great slaughter. Judges 15:7-8
 Then Samson went to hang out "in the top of the rock Etam" for a while. While he was there, 3000 men of Judah came, tied him up and took him to the Philistines. When they delivered Samson "the Spirit of the Lord came upon him" and he broke the ropes and killed 1000 men with the jawbone of an ass.
The spirit of the Lord came mightily upon him ... And he found a new jawbone of an ass and slew a thousand men therewith. Judges 15:14-15
Samson was thirsty after the killing, so God made water come out of the same jawbone so that Samson could get a drink.
And he was sore athirst, and called on the LORD, and ... God clave an hollow place that was in the jaw, and there came water thereout; and when he had drunk, his spirit came again. Judges 15:18-19
Does anyone really believe this stuff? Well, yes they do, unfortunately. Over two billion people believe (or pretend to believe) that this story actually happened exactly as it is recorded in Judges 15. Samson tied the tails of 300 foxes together and set them on fire and then he killed 1000 men with the jawbone of an ass.
Of course most believers have never read the story and don't even know it exists, but they believe it anyway, completely and implicitly, because they believe that everything in the Bible is true.
It's easier to believe in stories like this if you don't know they exist.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
God's next killing: Samson kills 3000 in a suicide terrorist attack
Posted by Steve Wells at 11/09/2009 12:10:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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21 comments:
 matt311 said...
You forgot to mention the worst bit: After killing said 1,000 Philistines, he sings a song about it.
With the jawbone of an ass,
Heaps upon heaps,
With the jaw of an ass
Have I slain a thousand men.
Yeah, and you jaw like an ass, too, Samson; not even Abimelech sang songs about his killings, and he was a rampant misogynist!
Mon Nov 09, 07:39:00 PM 2009 
 Brucker said...
matt311: Samson, like God, likes a bit of cutesy Hebrew wordplay to go with his carnage. The Hebrew words for "donkey" and "heap" are almost identical.
Mon Nov 09, 09:04:00 PM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
Yeah, that is a nice little ditty.
It kind of reminds me of Samson's riddle: Out of the eater came forth meat, and out of the strong came forth sweetness.
Mon Nov 09, 09:06:00 PM 2009 
 matt311 said...
Yes, that they're both entirely nonsensical and show no artistic skill from Samson whatsoever; blessed of the Lord, my ass.
Still, there's something hilarious about the fact that the Christian response you linked to, [b]Brucker[/b], has a black background; isn't black a colour of the Devil to most Christians?
Mon Nov 09, 10:31:00 PM 2009 
 busterggi said...
So it never occurred to Samson to just go get his wife back?
Sounds more like an excuse to act like a psycho adolescent & torture small animals, start fires & kill for fun.
By the way, what makes Samson a hero anyway? He keeps acting like a jerk.
Tue Nov 10, 04:55:00 AM 2009 
 Brucker said...
I just like the way it looks, and I find it very readable. Oddly enough, many years ago, I chided another Christian for having a black background on his website as a joke. I'm surprised that you're the first one to point it out. Still, if you're serious, one could argue the reverse is true, but I think colors are simply a matter of personal taste.
Tue Nov 10, 06:53:00 AM 2009 
 Brucker said...
busterggi: You've totally got him pegged. Samson's a hero, but he's one of the original "anti-heroes". He's a total jerk, when he wants something he whines to his mommy, he takes any and every excuse to exact shocking cruelty on his enemies and he breaks every single rule given by God for a Nazarite (which he was supposed to be "from birth").
The big question of Samson's story is why God chose to use someone like that.
Tue Nov 10, 08:23:00 AM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
Oh, I get it, Brucker. Samson is a hero and an antihero at the same time! He was just being kind when he's killing people for God. Like you said before, "You've got to be cruel to be kind."
You're right, though, Samson was a jerk. But he behaved especially badly whenever God's Spirit came upon him.
"The Spirit of the LORD came upon him, and he ... slew thirty men ... and gave change of garments unto them which expounded the riddle." Judges 14:19
"The spirit of the Lord came mightily upon him ... And he found a new jawbone of an ass and slew a thousand men therewith." Judges 15:14-15
"Now the house was full of ... about three thousand men and women ... And Samson called unto the LORD, and said, O Lord God ... strengthen me ... that I may be at once avenged of the Philistines for my two eyes ... and the house fell upon the lords, and upon all the people that were therein." Judges 16:27-30
God loved Samson just the way he was. He especially loved his cruelty and strengthened him so that he could be even more cruel.
It seems to me that you should love Samson too, what with your "theological perspective" and all.
Tue Nov 10, 09:11:00 AM 2009 
 Brucker said...
Wikipedia: "antihero
Samson served a useful purpose in the context of the war against the Philistines, although he's far from admirable, he ended up doing a lot to free his people from opression by a foreign invader.
Samson's also a wonderful example of someone imperfect being used by God for a higher purpose. There's something oddly inspiring about the fact that God chooses to use people who are less than perfect. If Samson was good enough for God, then just about anybody can be.
Tue Nov 10, 09:44:00 AM 2009 
 Nathan said...
I'm not entirely sure why Samson would have been considered heroic even by people who approve of senseless violence. Sure, he killed a bunch of Philistines, but there's no indication that he drove them out of Israel or anything. Politically speaking, the fruits of his labors really amounted to nothing at all, as far as I can tell.
As for Samson's crappy riddles and songs, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and say that maybe they lose something in translation.
Tue Nov 10, 09:58:00 AM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
So what didn't you like about Samson, Brucker? You liked it when he murdered the 30 Philistines for their clothes, killed 1000 men with the jawbone of an ass, and killed 3000 men and women in a God-assisted act of terrorism. Was it the prostitute thing that bugged you or what? Judges 16:1
Tue Nov 10, 09:59:00 AM 2009 
 Brucker said...
"So what didn't you like about Samson, Brucker?"
Let's see: he was a drunk; he had little to no respect for women; he was deceptive to enemies, friends and family; he was violent even considering the fact that he was essentially in the midst of a war; everything he did in his life was at heart self-serving.
I never said I liked the killings, only that they served a higher purpose.
Tue Nov 10, 10:26:00 AM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
Samson was a drunk? I guess I missed that part.
I never said I liked the killings, only that they served a higher purpose.
No, you never said that you liked the killings, but you never said that you disliked them either. When it comes to God's killings, you seldom say anything at all.
So let me try asking another question. Do you approve of Samson's killings? Was Samson right or wrong when he murdered 30 men for their clothes, killed 1000 with the jawbone of an ass, and killed 3000 men and women in a suicide terrorist attack?
Tue Nov 10, 11:37:00 AM 2009 
 Brucker said...
So let me try asking another question. Do you approve of Samson's killings?
Let's take each in turn:
Was Samson right or wrong when he murdered 30 men for their clothes,...
I'm more than willing to say that was outright mass murder, and wrong.
...killed 1000 with the jawbone of an ass,...
While excessive, this is arguably self-defense, justice for what was done to his wife*, and an act of war.
...and killed 3000 men and women in a suicide terrorist attack?
Once again, self-defense, and an act of war. Your characterizing this as "a suicide terrorist attack" is interesting, too, as it allows me to say something that probably sets me apart from most Christians. I have a certain amount of odd respect for someone who decides to engage in a suicide attack. There are a lot of people willing to kill for what they believe in; how many people are willing to die for it? I've been saying to people for years that when Christian missionary organizations say "You can't go to that place; they'll put you to death for proclaiming the Gospel!" then that is exactly where missionaries should be sent. Provided they're willing to give their life for the Gospel, of course. I get tired of hearing whiny Christians say they're being persecuted because of atheists like you, when you're just providing dialogue. Come back and complain when an angry mob is threatening to stone you to death.
(*You have masde it very clear that you believe burning someone to death is wrong; don't you think the killers of Samson's wife and father-in-law should have been punished?)
Tue Nov 10, 02:59:00 PM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
Brucker,
You say that when Samson killed 30 men for their clothes it was mass murder and wrong. Yet immediately before this killing in the same verse, the Spirit of the Lord came upon Samson. So Samson committed the mass murder while he was under the influence of God's spirit. Doesn't that make God and his spirit accomplices to Samson's murder?
You say that Samson's killing of 1000 with the jawbone of an ass was justified by self defense and/or retribution for the burning of his wife and father-in-law. And you wonder why I wouldn't go along with that since I think it's wrong to burn people to death. But there is no indication in the story that the 1000 Philistines that he killed had anything to do with the death of his wife and father-in-law. Some Philistines supposedly burned them. You don't really think that all 1000 victims of Samson's jawbone massacre participated in the burning, do you? And even if some of them did, how would he know? It was just an arbitrary mass killing that was done to show off while under the influence of the Spirit of the Lord.
And, yes, your admiration for suicide attackers is odd. Samson killed 3000 men and women, much like the 9/11 attack, and with about as much justification. None. Do you think both attacks were equally admirable? Did God help the suicide bombers in the same way that he helped Samson?
Tue Nov 10, 03:41:00 PM 2009 
 busterggi said...
I guess Brucker considers Kid Marvelman a hero too.
What's a little (actually a lot) of mindless slaughter? Apparently not a disquailifier for hero status.
Tue Nov 10, 03:45:00 PM 2009 
 Mark said...
You begin at the wrong premise. You do not like what the Bible says and the implications derived from it and so you ridicule it.
The place to start is the question: Is the Bible the Word of God?
Starting there you may read the volumes written by apologists regarding the uniqueness of the Bible, manuscript evidence, archeological support, fulfilled prophecy, historicity, and so on.
Once that is established, I may wrestle with what it says and its application and come to more reasoned conclusions.
Wed Dec 16, 02:22:00 PM 2009 
 joshua said...
@ Mark: "You begin at the wrong premise."
That's exactly every skeptic's point. The only way to rationalize all of the crazy things in the OT and NT is to start from belief, and then proceed to filter out anything that hurts your cause and filter in anything that contributes to it.
But from a nonbeliever's standpoint, there should be some sort of evidence to believe in something first. It's a great feat of circular logic for you to argue that we must have unconditional faith before we can accurately understand these ancient ravings.
Thu Feb 11, 09:25:00 AM 2010 
 Brucker said...
Steve Wells: "Samson killed 3000 men and women, much like the 9/11 attack, and with about as much justification. None. Do you think both attacks were equally admirable? Did God help the suicide bombers in the same way that he helped Samson?"
Sorry for being so late coming back to this. I don't know what the motive of the 9/11 attackers was, so I can't judge it. I'm sure in their minds, they had good reason to do what they did, whether or not I would agree.
As for Samson, are you really so blind as to have missed the rest of the story? They gouged out his eyes and tied him up, no doubt intending to kill him. Furthermore, as was said over and over, this was in the midst of a Philistine occupation of Israel. While I don't know what the WTC attackers wanted, I can pretty easily guess what suicide bombers who attack American troops in Iraq want: they want us out of there. Isn't it possible to disagree with their tactics while appreciating that they have a legitimate cause?
Joshua: "But from a nonbeliever's standpoint, there should be some sort of evidence to believe in something first. It's a great feat of circular logic for you to argue that we must have unconditional faith before we can accurately understand these ancient ravings."
You and Mark are oddly both right. You can only understand the Bible if you start with the assumption that it's the word of God. On the other hand, that's a tough assumption for many people to make, especially if they don't believe there is a God. If you think someone is going to point you to the Bible as proof that God exists, either you've misunderstood them, or they've misunderstood the Bible (in my opinion).
Thu Feb 11, 11:41:00 AM 2010 
 G Frud said...
Those who don't know Christ can not rightly comment on Samson.
Mon Mar 11, 02:22:00 PM 2013 
 Jeff Socrates said...
Ergonomically, because the jawbone of an ass's curvature hugs the hand; thus, adds to the effortlessness with which it can be wielded, gives credence to the fact that this event actually happened.
Sun Dec 08, 06:44:00 AM 2013 
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 05 November 2009The Spirit of the Lord comes upon Samson and he murders 30 men for their clothes
Just when you think the stories in Judges couldn't get any stupider, the next one comes along to prove you wrong.
Take the story of Samson, for example.
It starts out in the usual way, with the children of Israel doing evil in the sight of the Lord and the Lord doing what he always does in such cases: he sells them. (Except that this time the Bible says he "delivered" them to the Philistines for forty years, so maybe the Israelites were a gift and he didn't get paid for them.)
Of course, after giving, selling, or renting the Israelites to the Philistines, God needed to find someone to help kill the Israelites' new owners. And that, as you probably guessed, is where Samson comes in.
(This is the first time that the third step in God's famous four-step process was skipped. At least I can't find where the Israelites cry out to the Lord. Oh well, maybe they cried out, but God couldn't hear them or just forgot to tell us about it.)
Samson's birth was a lot like Jesus'. An angel visited his mom to announce that she was going to have a son. He even came again unto her when her husband wasn't around and got her pregnant.
So Samson's birth was a fucking miracle.
And the Lord blessed him ... and the Spirit of the LORD began to move him at times. Judges 13:24-25
The first thing the Bible tells us about Samson is this:
Samson ... saw a woman ... of the daughters of the Philistines ... And Samson said unto his father ... Get her for me; for she pleaseth me well. Judges 14:1-3
Now Samson's folks were a bit troubled by this, since they knew how crazy God gets when an Israelite even thinks about marrying a non-Israelite. But then they didn't know that this was all a part of God's plan.
But his father and his mother knew not that it was of the LORD, that he sought an occasion against the Philistines. Judges 14:4
Samson was on his way to visit his new Philistine girlfriend when "the Spirit of the LORD came mightily" on him. Now in the Bible, there's pretty much only one thing that happens when the Spirit of the Lord comes upon somebody: the spirit-filled person kills something. That's what happened here.
Behold, a young lion roared against him. And the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon him, and he rent him as he would have rent a kid. Judges 14:5-6
When he arrived his Philistine girlfriend's place "she pleased Samson well" and then he returned home. On his way he saw the lion carcass...
...and, behold, there was a swarm of bees and honey in the carcase of the lion. Judges 14:8
Which, of course, was another miracle.
The spirit of God came upon Samson and he killed a lion. Then God sent bees to make honey from the dead lion's body.
Of course, it's also possible that the dead lion was covered with flies (not bees) and the putrefying flesh and maggots looked like honey to the dumb as shit Samson. (In which case the "honey" would have been pretty nasty stuff!)
Well whatever it was, Samson thought it tasted pretty darned sweet. He even brought some home to his folks, although he didn't tell them where it came from.
And he took thereof in his hands, and went on eating, and came to his father and mother, and he gave them, and they did eat: but he told not them that he had taken the honey out of the carcase of the lion. Judges 14:9
Although the Bible doesn't actually say so, I guess Samson married the Philistine woman that pleased him well. And they had a week-long party with thirty of Samson's new-found Philistine friends.
At the party Samson told a riddle.
I will now put forth a riddle unto you ... Out of the eater came forth meat, and out of the strong came forth sweetness. Judges 14:12-13
Wasn't that a great riddle? Anyway, Samson told his guests that whoever could figure it out before the week of partying is over would get 30 sheets and 30 garments. But whoever can't will have to give Samuel 30 sheets and 30 garments.
Now the party goers took the riddle pretty seriously. So they asked Samson's new wife to tell them the answer or they'd burn her house down. She finally got the answer from Samson and then she told the guys at the party. So Samson didn't get his 30 sets of sheets and garments.
Samson was pissed. He accused his guests of ... well, I'm not sure what. Here's what he said:
If ye had not plowed with my heifer, ye had not found out my riddle. Judges 14:18
So the party animals plowed with Samson's heifer and they found out his riddle.
And then God gets involved again.
And the Spirit of the LORD came upon him, and he went down to Ashkelon, and slew thirty men of them, and took their spoil, and gave change of garments unto them which expounded the riddle. Judges 14:19
So Samson went to another Philistine town (Ashkelon) and killed 30 men and took their clothes to give to the guys at his party for solving the riddle.
Oh, and then in the next verse, Samson's new wife is given to the best man at his wedding.
But Samson's wife was given to his companion, whom he had used as his friend. Judges 14:20
So everything worked out according to God's plan. Samson's brief (1 week) marriage, the lion and honey episode, the clever riddle and the clothing bet -- It was all carefully planned by God so that, in the end, Samson would murder thirty men for their clothes.
The Lord works in mysterious ways.
Oh, did you get Samson's riddle? Me neither.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
God's next killing: The spirit of the Lord comes upon Samson and he kills 1000 men with the jawbone of an ass
Posted by Steve Wells at 11/05/2009 10:40:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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9 comments:
 matt311 said...
I think he just assumed the Philistines were as dumb as he was.
Thu Nov 05, 09:30:00 PM 2009 
 busterggi said...
So even as a newly-wed Samson was calling his wife a heifer?
No wonder she told her friends the answer, she'd have been his 'old lady' by the weekend.
By the way, am I wrong or is this whole story pointless as far as a moral lesson?
Fri Nov 06, 06:41:00 AM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
Busterggi,
As far as I can tell, the entire book of Judges is just one absurd, pointless, nasty story after another.
Fri Nov 06, 08:28:00 AM 2009 
 Tim Atheist said...
Yeah, it's crazy bullshit. Gets annoying.
Couldn't God have told Samson to go kill thirty Philistines without the whole crap trial?
And the riddle is even more bullshit.
"As far as I can tell, the entire book of Judges is just one absurd, pointless, nasty story after another."
Amen to that brodda!
Sat Nov 07, 09:23:00 PM 2009 
 Ritchie Annand said...
So, how exactly does God sell the Israelites into slavery in the first place? Am I missing a mechanism here?
Do they wake up and there's a golden receipt in the middle of the camp?
Does their head priest make off like a bandit?
Do they run out of money and have to sell themselves into servitude?
Do they vandalize something and have to become slaves as community service?
Is it just a euphemism for the times that they lost a war?
Or is a grumpy deity supposed to have come down, trailed all the Israelites to the nearest town, knocked on the gate and made a deal with the local king, all the while somehow managing not being impressive enough to freak the crap out of the local gate-guarding constabulary?
Mon Nov 09, 01:56:00 PM 2009 
 Ritchie Annand said...
(I guess personally, it looks like a euphemism for losing a battle.
Not exactly the moral high ground for these folks that the people victorious against them only made them slaves, whereas when the Israelites have the upper hand, they commit genocide.
Normally, I'd put scare quotes around the only in only made them slaves, but on the grand sliding scale of things, genocide beats that by an order of magnitude or so.)
Mon Nov 09, 02:07:00 PM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
Ritchie,
Yeah, you're probably right about the whole God selling the Israelites into slavery thing. I doubt if the author of Judges thought God came down and personally negotiated a deal to sell the Israelites. (Although he might have. Judges is filled with batshit crazy stories.)
But morality of it all is the same. Whether God was handling money or just pulling strings when he "sold them", it was just as stupid and just as cruel either way.
Mon Nov 09, 09:43:00 PM 2009 
 busterggi said...
Either way with that riddle SAmson is no Bilbo Baggins.
Tue Nov 10, 04:56:00 AM 2009 
 Sam Donner said...
Well, with respect to the riddle: I think that the answer is the lion he encountered before. It would be the eater, in whose death came forth meat (IE, samson ate the stuff inside the lion after it died), and the honey would be the sweetness coming from the strong.
According to wikipedia, a heifer is a cow that has yet to have a child, which could metaphorically apply to his wife. Presumably, "plowing with" is code for talking. Interesting etymology, I suppose, because people would talk while plowing.
Overall, though, a stupid and pointless story.
Wed Aug 11, 11:10:00 AM 2010 
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 02 November 2009Jephthah's Daughter
In the last killing, the spirit of the Lord came upon Jephthah and he promised that he would offer to God a burned sacrifice of whatever comes out to greet him if God would help him massacre the Ammonites. God came through with his end of the deal by delivering 20 cities into Jephthah's hand and "he smote them ... with a very great slaughter."
When Jephthah returned home after slaughtering the Ammonites, his daughter came out to meet him.
Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances. Judges 11.34
When Jephthah saw his daughter, he tore his clothes and told her that he had opened his mouth to God.
When he saw her, that he rent his clothes, and said, Alas, my daughter … for I have opened my mouth unto the LORD, and I cannot go back. 11.35
His daughter (who is unnamed in the Bible) said,
My father, if thou hast opened thy mouth unto the LORD, do to me according to that which hath proceeded out of thy mouth. 11.36
What had proceeded out of Jephthah’s mouth was, of course, a God-inspired promise to God to kill whatever greeted him. And so by God, that's what he did. A man's got to do what a man's got to do.
And ... her father ... did with her according to his vow which he had vowed. 11.39
God inspired Jephthah to make the vow, so he expected him to abide by it. And God was so pleased when Jephthah killed his daughter for him that he decided to kill his own son for you.
But I'll save that story for later.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

God's next killing: 42,000 killed for failing the "Shibboleth" test

Posted by Steve Wells at 11/02/2009 01:18:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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2 comments:
 rudydj said...
Wow hard to believe no one commented on this.....
Tue Feb 04, 09:02:00 AM 2014 
 teamrodent said...
So Jephthah didn't get at least one country because his kid's a daughter? Oh, and she also dies.
Wed Feb 05, 08:44:00 PM 2014 
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 02 November 2009The Ammonite massacre
This is the fifth time the same stupid story is repeated in Judges (See Judges 2:14, 3:8, 4:2, and 6:1 for the others), so you know by now what's going to happen.
The Israelites do evil in the sight of the Lord.
God gets angry and sells them as slaves. (This time to the Ammonites.)
The Israelites cry out to God.
God slaughters the people he sold the Israelites to.
A few details change each time the story is told: the number of years that the Israelites are enslaved, the people that he sells them to, and the person that he chooses to help him with the massacre. This time God chooses Jephthah.
As usual, everything starts to go to hell when the spirit of the Lord comes upon Jephthah.
Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah ... And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands, Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering. Judges 11:29-31
Did you catch that? The spirit of the Lord comes upon Jephthah and he promises to kill whatever comes out to greet him if God will help him massacre the Ammonites. God not only approved of Jephthah's vow, he inspired it.
And, of course, God comes through with his end of the deal by giving Jephthah "a very great slaughter."
So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon to fight against them; and the LORD delivered them into his hands. And he smote them ... even twenty cities ... with a very great slaughter. Judges 11:29-39
God delivered 20 cities into Jephthah's hand and "he smote them ... with a very great slaughter." And then Jephthah came home, which leads us to God's next killing.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note: I originally only gave God credit for 1000 in this killing, but I increased it to 20,000 to account for the 20 massacred cities.
Posted by Steve Wells at 11/02/2009 10:26:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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9 comments:
 adnandakingkhalil said...
Ah, biblical morality at it's finest!
And with Yahweh being omniscient and all, I guess he knew beforehand it was going to be Jephthah's daughter who was on the menu.
Mon Nov 02, 11:01:00 AM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
Yep, God knew it was going to happen and was looking forward to it.
And this time he didn't intervene by providing a ram instead (like he did when Abraham was about to kill Isaac for him) or just saying something like, "Stop! What are you doing? Are fucking crazy?" Nope, he just sat back and watched, enjoying the whole thing. (He probably still rewinds it and watches it over and over again.)
Mon Nov 02, 11:29:00 AM 2009 
 Brucker said...
(He probably still rewinds it and watches it over and over again.)
Steve, are you an atheist, or do you believe that God exists, and you just don't like him?
Mon Nov 02, 12:26:00 PM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
Thankfully, Brucker, the God of the Bible doesn't exist. But if he did, he'd enjoy watching Jephthah kill his daughter. He'd play it over and over again on his big screen TV, enjoying it more each time he saw it. He's the type.
Do you think you'll get to watch it someday with him?
Mon Nov 02, 12:39:00 PM 2009 
 Brucker said...
Well, with that out of the way, why do you hesitate to include Shamgar's killings, but not to include the killing of Jephthah's daughter? Nowhere in the text does it say that God called for it. Frankly, I can understand you disagreeing with my viewpoint on this passage, but in light of your earlier post, you seem too eager to assign blame here.
Mon Nov 02, 01:37:00 PM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
Yeah, I could go either way on Shamgar's killings. That "he too delivered Israel" thing seems to imply that God was involved. But it could also just mean that God approved of the killings.
As for Jephthah, "the spirit of the Lord" came upon Jephthah" in Judges 11:29 and he makes a vow in the next verse to kill whoever greets him after God helps him with a great slaughter. So it sounds to me that the spirit of the Lord inspired Jephthah's vow.
If the spirit of the Lord had of came upon Shamgar (as he does a little later in Judges for Samson), I'd have given God some credit for that mass ox goad killing, too.
Mon Nov 02, 01:54:00 PM 2009 
 busterggi said...
So for the 4th time the Israelites pissed Yahweh off.
I dunno how an omniscient deity could select such a fickle people to be his 'chosen people'.
Mon Nov 02, 03:21:00 PM 2009 
 matt311 said...
Finally! The story that inspired Shakespeare to drive Ophelia insane in Hamlet, yet is still terrible for it.
HAMLET: O Jephthah, judge of Israel, what a treasure hadst thou!
POLONIUS: What a treasure had he, my lord?
HAMLET: Why, 'One fair daughter and no more, the which he loved passing well.'
POLONIUS: (aside) Still on my daughter.
HAMLET: Am I not i' the right, old Jephthah?
POLONIUS: If you call me Jephthah, my lord, I have a daughter that I love passing well.
HAMLET: Nay, that follows not.
POLONIUS: What follows, then, my lord?
HAMLET: Why,'As by lot, God wot,' and then, you know, 'It came to pass, as most like it was,'-- the first row of the pious chanson will show you more; for look, where my abridgement comes.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Such a shame that a wonderful play had to be tarnished by such a reference; it's like a sudden mention of Twilight in the middle of Madame Butterfly.
Mon Nov 02, 08:15:00 PM 2009 
 =8)-DX said...
"Such a shame that a wonderful play had to be tarnished by such a reference;"
Sheesh, don't you know anything about Shakespeare? It is precisely such references that give his plays the right sting in my mind. Hamlet is making grand fun of Polonius.. and this foreshadows her death.
Tue Nov 03, 03:14:00 AM 2009 
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 23 December 2009Five Golden Hemorrhoids ... and a partridge in a pear tree
Garrison Keillor says that atheists and Jews should "buzz off" at Christmas time and leave the holiday to believers.
But I like Christmas too much to leave it to Mr. Keillor and other mindless bigots.* In fact, I'd like to propose an improvement to one of their carols.
"The Twelve Days of Christmas" is a fun song, but none of the gifts have much to do with the Bible or Christianity. There are no french hens, leaping lords, or swimming swans in the Bible. And what's with the "Five Golden Rings" thing?
So let's change "Five Golden Rings" to something that has some religious significance. Something that is found in the Bible. Something God would appreciate.
Five Golden Hemorrhoids!
(If you don't know about them, you can read about them here.)
So this Christmas, in honor of Garrison Keillor, whenever you sing "The Twelve Days of Christmas" substitute "Five Golden Hemorrhoids" (or "Five Golden Rhoids") for "Five Golden Rings."
God and Garrison Keillor will love you for it!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some believers might object by saying that the five golden hemorrhoids were from the Old Testament, so they have nothing to do with Jesus. But if so, they are forgetting that everything in the Old Testament points to Jesus. So the only question is this: How do the five golden hemorrhoids point to Jesus?
And the answer is perfectly obvious: The five golden hemorrhoids represent the five wounds of Christ in the crucifixion. They were fashioned out of gold and given to God as a present in the same way the wise men brought gifts to the baby Jesus at Christmas time.
Like everything else in the Bible, it all makes perfect sense.
Merry Christmas!
*I don't really think Garrison Keillor is a mindless bigot. I think he's just pretending to be one.
Posted by Steve Wells at 12/23/2009 12:01:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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11 comments:
 Brucker said...
I gotta admit, the "five wounds of Jesus" thing made me chuckle. You should make a fully-revamped carol with Biblical stuff for all twelve days.
Wed Dec 23, 02:31:00 PM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
"You should make a fully-revamped carol with Biblical stuff for all twelve days."
Yeah, I've thought about doing that, but it would take some work. Maybe next year.
Wed Dec 23, 03:03:00 PM 2009 
 matt311 said...
The "four calling birds" one is easy; just change it to "four chopped-up birds", and you've got a verse God'll love.
Heh; five sacred wounds? Were you a Catholic, Steve? Only a former Catholic would've been taught something like that (and I should know)... ;-)
Wed Dec 23, 06:33:00 PM 2009 
 busterggi said...
Well we know the last gift would be twelve body parts of concubines.
Thu Dec 24, 06:20:00 AM 2009 
 Abeille said...
Brucker,
Since Steve is busy this year, why don't you revamp a carol for us?
Thu Dec 24, 10:31:00 AM 2009 
 skanksta said...
Brucker,
Thanks for your reply on the other thread - you are a gentlemen.
Mon Dec 28, 05:07:00 AM 2009 
 Brucker said...
"...you are a gentlemen."
Yes, but I'm getting treatment for my MPD.
Mon Dec 28, 10:01:00 AM 2009 
 Muffinman said...
Of course the 5 Golden Rings are in the Bible! Yahweh gives the Elves 3 Rings, the Dwarves 7, the Humans 9, and the Christians 5. It's right there, after the begatting and before the Sundering of Númenor...or am I mixing up my fiction again?
Thu Dec 31, 02:57:00 AM 2009 
 David said...
Lol - freudian slip @ the multiple personalites required of those with faith in place of reason ?!
Sat Jan 02, 05:29:00 PM 2010 
 Ian said...
Hope everyone had a happy Saturnalia and thanked Sol Invictus for sending the sun back for another year!
That is the Reason for the Season, right?
Sat Jan 02, 08:31:00 PM 2010 
 skanksta said...
Hi Steve,
My comment come out as if from "david" - bit weird...
was @ brucker from skanksta
Mon Jan 04, 10:39:00 AM 2010 
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 22 December 2009God forced the Philistines to kill each other
 After helping Jonathan with his first slaughter (which wasn't really his first, but Oh well), God took over the killing himself. He didn't have much choice if he wanted to get the killing done, because there were only two swords in all Israel at the time, Jonathan's and Saul's. And it's hard to kill Philistines with only sticks and stones.
So it came to pass in the day of battle, that there was neither sword nor spear found in the hand of any of the people that were with Saul and Jonathan: but with Saul and with Jonathan his son was there found. 1 Samuel 13:22
But God had a plan. He'd force the Philistines to kill each other (and throw in an earthquake for dramatic effect).
And there was trembling ... and the earth quaked: so it was a very great trembling. ...
The multitude melted away, and they went on beating down one another... Every man's sword was against his fellow. 1 Samuel 14:15-20
 After the Philistines killed each other, the Israelites must have gathered up their swords and spears, because by the end of the same chapter Saul is fighting everybody at once, "vexing" them all.
So Saul ... fought against all his enemies on every side, against Moab, and against the children of Ammon, and against Edom, and against the kings of Zobah, and against the Philistines: and whithersoever he turned himself, he vexed them. And he gathered an host, and smote the Amalekites, and delivered Israel out of the hands of them that spoiled them. 1 Samuel 14:47-48
(Since the Bible doesn't say that God was involved in these battles, I didn't include the victims in God's total.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How many Philistine soldiers did God kill by forcing them to kill each other? The Bible doesn't say, so I just guessed the usual 1000.
God's next killing: The Amalekite Genocide

Posted by Steve Wells at 12/22/2009 11:41:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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4 comments:
 busterggi said...
Whaaaa???
What happened to all the swords the Israelites were using to slaughter all those other folks?
For that matter, if Yahweh could cause the Philistines to kill one another why did he need the Israelites to do the other killings?
The OT makes less sense the more you read it.
Tue Dec 22, 05:08:00 PM 2009 
 matt311 said...
Yep; yet another passage they didn't teach you in Sunday school.
Wed Dec 23, 06:28:00 PM 2009 
 Thomas Seidler said...
i do teach this stuff in Sunday school, and in church! ;) and many of my brethren too. BTW you've missed out a number of verses on this particular theme, so i thought you'd be fascinated: Judges 7:22, 2 Chr 20:22-25, Ezk 38:21, Zech 14:13. Now the Ezekiel ref is fascinating cos its the famous 'Gog' of Revelation 19 reference. So quite possibly a prophecy about what will happen at the end of the world.
That God causes people to get 'hoist by their own petar' seems no less unlovely than 'what goes around comes around', 'live by the sword die by the sword', etc. It is one aspect of reality that God sometimes allow to play in full. As in these amazing examples - in the Chronicles reference the Israelites come across an entirely dead army. they have all killed each other - to no last man standing.
He often makes the point throughout OT history that it is Him that fights for Israel most effectively, and not they themselves. This is designed to enable a true and real humility, if God were not for us, we'd be broken, all our victories can be attributed to him. [Though the obverse is not true - all our failures are our own entirely]
Anyways, may God bless you in the place you are in, thank you for discussing these things. To my mind it shows the mark of the dangerous genius of God.
L8r, T
Fri Mar 12, 08:02:00 AM 2010 
 Steve Wells said...
Thanks, Thomas, for the response. I didn't know that any of this stuff was taught in Sunday school.
As for the verses that you site, I think I've highlighted all of them at the SAB and included them in God's killings at the blog (when a killing was involved), except for 2 Chr 20:22-25. That's a good one. I'll add it to the list. Thanks!
I disagree with you on this statement, though: "That God causes people to get 'hoist by their own petar' seems no less unlovely than 'what goes around comes around', 'live by the sword die by the sword', etc."
It seems much more "unlovely" to me. Forcing people to kill each other is as about as evil as it gets, except maybe then forcing them to eat each other after they're done (which God likes to do too, and I suppose you enthusiastically approve of, as well).
I hope you'll continue to participate here. I'm especially interested in any more of God's killings that I've missed.
Fri Mar 12, 08:37:00 AM 2010 
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 19 December 2009Jonathan's very first slaughter (not counting the one before)
Well, it was a bit disappointing to me, but I guess it was OK for a very first slaughter.
Here's how it happened.
 One day Jonathan and his armor bearer decided to go find some uncircumcised guys to kill. Who knows? Maybe God would help them.
Jonathan said to the young man that bare his armour, Come, and let us go over unto the garrison of these uncircumcised: it may be that the LORD will work for us. 1 Samuel 14:6
Jonathan's amorous armor bearer said to him, "Do whatever is in your heart. Whatever is in your heart is in my heart, too." (They had a very close, intimate relationship.)
And his armourbearer said unto him, Do all that is in thine heart: turn thee; behold, I am with thee according to thy heart. 1 Samuel 14:7
So Jonathan told him his plan. They will go over to the Philistines and if they say, "Wait there and we'll come over to you," then Jonathan and his armor bearer will stay put. But if the Philistines say, "Come up to us, and we will show you something," then they will attack, knowing that God will help them kill them.
Then said Jonathan, Behold, we will pass over unto these men, and we will discover ourselves unto them. If they say thus unto us, Tarry until we come to you; then we will stand still in our place, and will not go up unto them. But if they say thus, Come up unto us; then we will go up: for the LORD hath delivered them into our hand: and this shall be a sign unto us. 1 Samuel 14:8-10
So they did that. And when the Philistines saw them, they said, "Look the Hebrews have crawled out of the holes they were hiding in."
And both of them discovered themselves unto the garrison of the Philistines: and the Philistines said, Behold, the Hebrews come forth out of the holes where they had hid themselves. 1 Samuel 14:11
And then the Philistines said the magic words of doom, "Come on up and we'll show you a thing or two."
And the men of the garrison answered Jonathan and his armourbearer, and said, Come up to us, and we will shew you a thing. 1 Samuel 14:12a
When Jonathan heard that, he he told his armor bearer that God would help them kill the Philistines.
And Jonathan said unto his armourbearer, Come up after me: for the LORD hath delivered them into the hand of Israel. 1 Samuel 14:12b
So Jonathan and his armor bearer crawled out of their hole and began to kill Philistines.
And Jonathan climbed up upon his hands and upon his feet, and his armourbearer after him: and they fell before Jonathan; and his armourbearer slew after him. 1 Samuel 14:12
They killed about 20 of them, all in an area of half an acre or so. Which is not too bad for a very first slaughter.
And that first slaughter, which Jonathan and his armourbearer made, was about twenty men, within as it were an half acre of land, which a yoke of oxen might plow. 1 Samuel 14:14
I don't know about you, but the thing that bothers me about this story is the "first slaughter" part. Because if this was Jonathan's very first slaughter, then what the hell was he doing in the last chapter?
And Jonathan smote the garrison of the Philistines that was in Geba. 1 Samuel 13:3
It sounds like Jonathan's second slaughter, and I'm a bit pissed off about it!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
God's next killing: God forced the Philistines to kill each other
Posted by Steve Wells at 12/19/2009 04:05:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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22 comments:
 busterggi said...
It was his first slaughter, after all the bible wouldn't lie.
The other slaughter was just bad editing.
Sun Dec 20, 08:06:00 AM 2009 
 Brucker said...
The verse says "that first slaughter", not "Jonathan's first slaughter". You're assuming what "first" refers to. It might be the first slaughter of this particular garrison, for instance. I don't know what "first" means in this instance, but the fact that you point out seems to be true: it couldn't refer to Jonathan's military career.
Sun Dec 20, 09:25:00 AM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
Brucker,
"I don't know what "first" means in this instance, but the fact that you point out seems to be true: it couldn't refer to Jonathan's military career."
It couldn't refer to Jonathan's military career because if it did it would be a contradiction, and, as we all know, the Bible never contradicts itself!
When the text refers to "that first slaughter, which Jonathan and his armourbearer made," it could mean the first slaughter that both of them made together (while holding hands), or the first slaughter that Jonathan made on a Tuesday, or the first slaughter that Jonathan did in only a half an acre, or pretty much anything you can think of. And there is no limit to the number of things believers can think of to get out of an obvious contradiction.
But the story seems clear enough. The boy Jonathan was out to find some uncircumcised guys to kill to impress everyone on his very first slaughter. And with God's special help he found and killed 20 guys. It was wonderful start for one of God's favorite killers.
1&2 Samuel had several sources that often contradict each other. This is just one example.
Sun Dec 20, 10:03:00 AM 2009 
 twillight said...
Wan't that "first slaughter" of that particular battle, or first slaughter against the Philisteans (aren't the jews still restricted having any weapons, filnt and such because of phiistean rulership?) or something?
Sun Dec 20, 10:22:00 AM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
Sure, twillight, it might mean the first slaughter of that battle (or the year, or whatever). But it seems to me that it was making up a story about Jonathan's first slaughter -- that's why there were only 20 killed (which isn't too bad for a very first slaughter). The author had never heard about the story from the previous chapter, because the other story was written by someone else and both were thrown together much later when the two sources were redacted together.
Sun Dec 20, 10:35:00 AM 2009 
 skanksta said...
Steve, you're forgetting the fact that these victims were UNCIRCUMCISED. It's obvious what God is trying to tell us.
If people defy him, (and being uncircumcised was clearly VERY bad in his eyes at that time), then it really doesn't MATTER whether this is the first slaughter or the second - God will punish you !
Mankind was very wicked in those times and had to be corrected - the whole of the OT is about God's struggle to teach his children.
Thankfully - for us - he later came up with the much better plan of making himself a son of flesh on earth, then crucifying him.
Mon Dec 21, 04:10:00 AM 2009 
 Brucker said...
The point I'm trying to make is that there are enough legitimate contradiction issues to resolve without making a disingenuous assumption that if you can interpret a passage to imply contradiction, then that's the assumption to go with.
It's like this:
In verse 14:10a, Jonathan says, "But if they say thus, Come up unto us; then we will go up:" But in verse 14:12a, "And the men of the garrison answered Jonathan and his armourbearer, and said, Come up to us, and we will shew you a thing." The men didn't say the magic code phrase that Jonathan asked for from God, so why did he go to them? It must be a contradiction!
In 14:11, "And both of them discovered themselves unto the garrison of the Philistines: and the Philistines said, Behold, the Hebrews come forth out of the holes where they had hid themselves." Wait a minute, the Bible doesn't say anything about the Israelites hiding in holes. It must be a contradiction!
Check out 14:13! "And Jonathan climbed up upon his hands and upon his feet, and his armourbearer after him: and they fell before Jonathan; and his armourbearer slew after him." Wait, can't the Bible be clear? Was it Jonathan, or his armorbearer who was doing the killing? It must be a contradiction!
14:20 "And Saul and all the people that were with him assembled themselves, and they came to the battle: and, behold, every man's sword was against his fellow, and there was a very great discomfiture." Wait a minute, if it was "every man", then that would mean the Israelites must have been killing each other, too, but we get no body count or even indication of casualties at all. It must be a contradiction!
14:21 "Moreover the Hebrews that were with the Philistines before that time, which went up with them into the camp from the country round about, even they also turned to be with the Israelites that were with Saul and Jonathan." Wait, I thought Jonathan was off alone with his armorbearer, and not with Saul? It must be a contradiction!
In verse 27, Jonathan eats some honey, but in verse 24, it says, "So none of the people tasted any food." It must be a contradiction!
But wait! In verse 32, "the people did eat"! Can't the Bible make up its mind? It must be a contradiction!
Verse 34: "And Saul said, Disperse yourselves among the people, and say unto them, Bring me hither every man his ox, and every man his sheep, and slay them here, and eat; and sin not against the LORD in eating with the blood. And all the people brought every man his ox with him that night, and slew them there." Wait, what happened to the sheep in the second half of that verse? It must be a contradiction!
I could probably continue, but what's the point? Eight contradictions so far just in this one chapter? This goofy Bible is full of holes!
I think skanksta and I will have to permanently trade places; this is much more fun.
Mon Dec 21, 07:08:00 AM 2009 
 Brucker said...
By the way, after I'm finished here, I'm going to start a website called "Skeptics Annotated Charles Dickens" I think.
"It was the best of times, it was the worst of times; it ws the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness; it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity; it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness; it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair; we had everything before us, we had nothing before us; we were all going directly to Heaven, we were all going the other way."
Whew, that'll keep you busy...
Mon Dec 21, 07:12:00 AM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
I agree, Brucker. The bible is goofy and full of holes.
And good luck with the SACD. That sounds like a fun project for you.
Mon Dec 21, 08:25:00 AM 2009 
 Randy said...
Of course, Dickens wrote much more cohesive fiction than whoever redacted the Bible.
Mon Dec 21, 10:32:00 AM 2009 
 matt311 said...
So did Douglas Adams, and he was making it up as he went along!
Wow, this story; I guess Jonathan and his gay armour-bearer thought God could help them kill some random Philistines... and they were right!
Also, Steve? The first two times you wrote Jonathan's name (in the title and third line), you accidentally wrote it as "Johathan"; might want to correct that.
Mon Dec 21, 01:10:00 PM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
Thanks matt311. Man, have I been messing up spelling names lately, or what?
Mon Dec 21, 01:18:00 PM 2009 
 matt311 said...
I guess so; nothing against you, but I'm sure you come up with these entries on the go, so you don't really have time to proofread them.
Also, you have "Maybe God would hep them" where it should be "Maybe God would help them"; God isn't a hep cat, now, is he? ;-)
Mon Dec 21, 03:20:00 PM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
Thanks for the 'hep' there, matt311.
Mon Dec 21, 03:50:00 PM 2009 
 skanksta said...
It IS more fun, eh Brucker ? but I don't think we're either of us doing a convincing job.
However, I HAVE been reading some of the daft posts from NBFF and I think I'm up to making a better fist of it.
I want Steve to bring us something really indefensible - won't be hard - and I'll defend it properly.
Forgive me, even though I'm the only person I know who's actually READ the bible even once, (thanks to the excellent British church school education ironically), I'll struggle with scripturizing, but I'm ready for the challenge...
Meanwhile... Brucker, I really am fascinated in how you're politically liberal ? I mean WTF ! I'm sorry to go on about this, but what do you believe in...
Age of earth ?
gays ?
hell ?
stem cells ?
evolution ?
holy war ?
According to your site you seem to be some sort of heretic ?! Are you trying to edit your holy book so that it says your saviour returned in 1915 ?
Steve, great stuff as usual - really looking fwd to what you'll come up with for our Christmas Present !
Mon Dec 21, 05:54:00 PM 2009 
 Brucker said...
Do you have Firefox? It has a built-in spellchecker.
Mon Dec 21, 06:03:00 PM 2009 
 matt311 said...
No problem; glad to give you a hand.
Mon Dec 21, 06:11:00 PM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
Brucker,
Yeah, I use Firefox, but I didn't know it had a spell checker. Does it spell check web pages as you view them?
Blogger has a spell checker, too, but I tend to ignore that when I'm composing.
Mon Dec 21, 06:49:00 PM 2009 
 Brucker said...
So, skanksta, going to be insistant, eh? Okay, briefly, what I believe about...
"Age of earth ?" Appears to be older than the 6,000 years or so that a literal reading of the Bible might suggest, yet I don't count out "Young Earth Creationism" for various reasons.
"gays ?" I believe that the Bible teaches same-sex intercourse is a sin, but don't believe that that means our secular governments have a right to tell people how to live their personal lives. Note that we're all sinners, but luckily being a sinner won't imply our going to...
"hell ?" Exists, but it's not much like the stereotypical view of it.
"stem cells ?" From what I have heard and read, research in the use of embryonic stem cells has yielded nothing useful, while adult stem cells have yielded some. The use of embryonic stem cells is a moral grey area I don't feel comfortable with, especially since it seems to have no point.
"evolution ?" Also certainly real, but it's never really very clear what the implications of it are. Did humanity evolve from other forms of life? If so, which ones? What is the real mechanism behind evolution? Nobody has the final answers, including the Bible.
"holy war ?" Bad idea unless you really know that God is on your side.
"According to your site you seem to be some sort of heretic ?!" Some might say that, but I prefer to think of myself as an open-minded Christian who's willing to ask questions that others might not.
"Are you trying to edit your holy book so that it says your saviour returned in 1915 ?" You're confusing me with the JWs again, who, despite believing something like that, haven't (as far as I know) edited the Bible to say any such thing.
Mon Dec 21, 09:02:00 PM 2009 
 busterggi said...
Brucker - Was Oliver really twisted & if so why?
And do you really expecrt me to believe that the mice wouldn't have finished off Miss Havershams cake in 50 years? Really, that table should have been clean except fot mouse shit.
Tue Dec 22, 06:01:00 AM 2009 
 Rob said...
"Steve, you're forgetting the fact that these victims were UNCIRCUMCISED. It's obvious what God is trying to tell us."
Foreskin is worth killing living, thinking, feeling and loving sons, brothers, fathers, and friends? A little bit of extra skin on your private parts deems a human being worthy of death?
"If people defy him, (and being uncircumcised was clearly VERY bad in his eyes at that time), then it really doesn't MATTER whether this is the first slaughter or the second - God will punish you !"
Oh, ok, now I get it...not because they had foreskin, but because they failed to obey God by mutilating their genitals.
"Mankind was very wicked in those times and had to be corrected - the whole of the OT is about God's struggle to teach his children."
Not a very powerful or impressive God if he can't keep mere human beings in line. If he couldn't do it 5,000 years ago, what makes people think he'll do any better after the second coming?

"Thankfully - for us - he later came up with the much better plan of making himself a son of flesh on earth, then crucifying him."
Giving his own son to be tortured and murdered...and this is supposed to be a father figure to look up to?
Honestly, is your comment a satire or were serious when you wrote it?
Tue Dec 22, 11:00:00 AM 2009 
 skanksta said...
@ Rob,
I was NOT being satirical as such, I was attempting to suspend my wonderful, (and expensive) education in reason and enlightenment, (at a church school!) and answer as I a believer would - without logic and ignoring all moral implications.
It's a game I was trying for a while, obviously it worked !
Sun Jan 10, 03:41:00 AM 2010 
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 17 December 2009Another Ammonite Massacre (and another God-inspired body-part message)
Remember the Holy Civil War a few killings back? Well this is a lot like it.
It starts with the people from Jabeshgilead making a proposition to the Ammonites.
Then Nahash the Ammonite came up, and encamped against Jabeshgilead: and all the men of Jabesh said unto Nahash, Make a covenant with us, and we will serve thee. 1 Samuel 11.1
Does Jabeshgilead sound sound familiar to you? Well, if you read about God’s 57th killing, it should. (In that story, the Israelites killed everyone in the city of Jabeshgilead except for the virgin women, whom they gave to the surviving Benjamites for wives.)
So everyone in Jabeshgilead was killed a few years before the events in 1 Samuel 11 supposedly took place. Yet here in verse 1 they are making a treaty with the Ammonites. Do dead people make treaties? I guess they do in the Bible.
Anyway, here's the deal that Nahash offered the (dead?) people from Jabeshgilead:
Nahash the Ammonite answered them, On this condition will I make a covenant with you, that I may thrust out all your right eyes, and lay it for a reproach upon all Israel. 11.2
Now you might think that this would be a 'no brainer' to the people of Jabeshgilead. But since they were already dead, maybe they didn't have any eyes to poke out. In any case, the people of Jabshgilead asked for a week to see if they could get an army together to fight the Ammonites. If they couldn't, they'd let the Ammonites poke out one of their eyes.
The elders of Jabesh said unto him, Give us seven days' respite, that we may send messengers unto all the coasts of Israel: and then, if there be no man to save us, we will come out to thee. 11.3
The Ammonites said, "Sure, go ahead and get an army together. We'll give you a week." So the leaders of Jabeshgilead sent messengers to Saul.
When Saul heard about it, "the Spirit of the Lord came upon him," and Saul did what any spirit-filled person would do: he killed some oxen, chopped their bodies up into 12 pieces, and sent the pieces to the 12 tribes of Israel.
The Spirit of God came upon Saul ... And he took a yoke of oxen, and hewed them in pieces, and sent them throughout all the coasts of Israel by the hands of messengers. 11.6-7a
And it worked, too. Messages like that always work in the Bible.
The fear of the LORD fell on the people, and they came out with one consent. 11.7b
Within a week the ox body parts were sent around to all the tribes of Israel and all the people of Israel responded "as one," forming an army of 330,000.
When he numbered them in Bezek, the children of Israel were three hundred thousand, and the men of Judah thirty thousand. 11.8
It's amazing what a 12 rotting pieces of meat can do!
Then Saul told the people of Jabeshgilead:
To morrow, by that time the sun be hot, ye shall have help. And the messengers came and shewed it to the men of Jabesh; and they were glad. 11.9
So the messengers went back and told the good news to leaders of Jabeshgilead, and they told Nahash that tomorrow they'd let them poke out their eyes.
The men of Jabesh said, To morrow we will come out unto you, and ye shall do with us all that seemeth good unto you. 11.10
The next day Saul and his army killed Ammonites until it got a bit too hot for killing. Then they stopped and took a little break. Before they were done, though, they had killed all the Ammonites.
Saul ... slew the Ammonites until the heat of the day: and it came to pass, that they which remained were scattered, so that two of them were not left together. 11.11
After the slaughter, some of the people wanted Samuel to kill all the Israelites that didn't want Saul to be made king. But Saul said,
There shall not a man be put to death this day: for to day the LORD hath wrought salvation in Israel. 11.13
So since it was God that did all the killing, he deserves all the credit. The Bible doesn't say how many Ammonites were killed; I'll call it a standard massacre and say 1000.
God's next killing: Jonathan's very fist slaughter (not counting the one before)


Posted by Steve Wells at 12/17/2009 12:21:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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8 comments:
 matt311 said...
So... Samuel can talk to dead people (the leaders of Jabeshgilead)? I'm not surprised if he's ever played by Haley Joel Osment in a bio-pic...
Thu Dec 17, 01:08:00 PM 2009 
 Brucker said...
Hey, Steve, don't get sloppy like the Bible... ; ) You've got a lot of spelling variations on your names in this post.
Thu Dec 17, 05:22:00 PM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
Brucker,
Are you talking about "Jabeshgilead" and "Jabesh"? If so, I'm not sure what I can do about it. The Bible seems to refer to the town as Jabeshgilead (or Jabesh-gilead) but townspeople as the men of Jabesh.
Thu Dec 17, 07:07:00 PM 2009 
 Brucker said...
You spell:
Jabeshgilead as "Jabshgilead" once,
Ammonites as "Ammorites" twice, and
Nahash as "Nabash" twice.
Thu Dec 17, 09:55:00 PM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
Thanks for the help, Brucker. I'd have never found those mistakes. Let me know if I missed any.
BTW, how do you figure Jabeshgilead repopulated itself so quickly after the Benjamite wife finding genocide affair in Judges 21?
Thu Dec 17, 11:33:00 PM 2009 
 skanksta said...
Hey Brucker, Daystar, my NFF (New Fundie Friends)...
wiki isn't really helpful re: 'the republic of gilead' - a fictional theocratic United States of the future, in Margaret Atwood's novel (and film) 'The Handmaid's Tale'.
Never really knew what she/futuristic theocratic govt. meant by using 'Gilead' as the name of their republic.
What happened in Gilead - is it this Jabeshgilead ? Where god shows his mercy to the benjaminites by massacreing a tribe and kidnapping and raping their frightened virgin daughters ?
I guess it must be.
Brucker you are one cool guy - you're politcally liberal AND believe (insert lunacy here)!
Now I really am learning... how does that happen ?
Where do you stand on gays/abortion/stem cells/capital punishment &c ?
Do your PROPER fundie friends think you're a cocunut chumming up with Steve !?
Fri Dec 18, 02:55:00 AM 2009 
 twillight said...
How it repopulated itself?
Isn't it obvious?
First: Sex is unclean according to the Bible.
Second: Jabes-whatever got cleansed, but some women of it remained alive.
Third: Nothing from the biblegod's creation can be destroyed for sure.
Conclusion: the women reproduced by dividing as single-cell organisms do after the mayhem but before the abduction. They were made so clean that they could do that.
Fri Dec 18, 07:05:00 AM 2009 
 Robert said...
Steve,
You say everyone was killed "a few years" before 1 Sam 11. How much do we know about the time lapse? Could it have been a few decades or enough time for the desolated city to be re-inhabited?
Any thoughts you have on this would be greatly appreciated.
Sat Dec 26, 09:10:00 PM 2009 
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 16 December 2009The Lord thundered great thunder upon the Philistines
After God killed more than 50,000 for looking into the ark, the ark was moved to Kirjathjearim and the people of Israel "lamented after the Lord" -- which means, I guess, that they wanted the damned thing back.
And it came to pass, while the ark abode in Kirjathjearim, that the time was long; for it was twenty years: and all the house of Israel lamented after the LORD. 1 Samuel 7.2
So Samuel told them what to do. Get rid of all their other gods and worship Yahweh alone. So the Israelites rounded up all their gods and threw them away. When the Philistines heard about all this, they prepared to attack Israel.
The Israelites asked Samuel to ask God to save them. So Samuel killed a baby lamb and burned its dead body for God. Then Samuel cried out to God and God heard him.
Samuel took a sucking lamb, and offered it for a burnt offering wholly unto the LORD: and Samuel cried unto the LORD for Israel; and the LORD heard him. 7.9
While Samuel was busy roasting the lamb for God, the Philistines attacked. And God "thundered with a great thunder" and "discomfited them." Then the Israelites chased them down and killed them.
As Samuel was offering up the burnt offering, the Philistines drew near to battle against Israel: but the LORD thundered with a great thunder on that day upon the Philistines, and discomfited them; and they were smitten before Israel. And the men of Israel went out of Mizpeh, and pursued the Philistines, and smote them. 7.10-11
After the slaughter, Samuel put up a monument that said, "So far the Lord has helped us."
Hitherto hath the LORD helped us. 7.12
Once again the Bible doesn't say how many Philistines were killed. So I'll just call it 1000.
God's next killing: Another Ammonite Massacre (and another God-inspired body-part message)


Posted by Steve Wells at 12/16/2009 10:41:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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11 comments:
 busterggi said...
Considering how much the OT says Yahweh hates all gentiles like the Philistines, Amorites, Moabites, etc, why do Christians gentiles think that now Yahweh likes them any better?
Wed Dec 16, 12:46:00 PM 2009 
 Brucker said...
First of all, the OT says no such thing. Second of all, Gentiles are saved through the sacrifice of a Jewish Messiah.
Wed Dec 16, 03:31:00 PM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
Good question, busterggi! Christians are gentiles to the God of the OT and the OT God hates gentiles, as his actions and words clearly show.
Christian gentiles think Yahweh likes them better because most Christians haven't read the OT and those that have either don't believe what it says or pretend it doesn't mean what it says.
Brucker: With regard to the OT God hating gentiles, you say, "First of all, the OT says no such thing."
Really? It seems to me that that's pretty much all the OT does say. The OT God hates everyone except for Jews that follow all of his laws.
I will ... cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you. Leviticus 26:30
And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them ... for they are ... children in whom is no faith. Deuteronomy 32:19-20
"Second of all, Gentiles are saved through the sacrifice of a Jewish Messiah."
Saved from what Brucker? The OT God? Good luck with that!
And Jesus may have been Jewish (though he didn't follow all of the OT laws, so God hated him too), but Christians are not Jews and the OT God hates them for it (or he would if he existed).
Wed Dec 16, 04:16:00 PM 2009 
 skanksta said...
I know it may seem that God is a brutal and full of hate on occassions, but his love is universal.
Thu Dec 17, 01:42:00 AM 2009 
 rgoodwi3 said...
His love of brutality is universal?
Thu Dec 17, 08:48:00 AM 2009 
 matt311 said...
This whole story... seems like one act of Biblical randomness after another, right up to the noncommittal text of the monument. Weird.
Thu Dec 17, 01:05:00 PM 2009 
 Brucker said...
God doesn't hate Gentiles, He hates pagans; or more precisely He hates (certain) pagan practices. As you point out, He only has tolerance for Jews that follow the law.
And to say Christians aren't Jews also goes against what the Bible says. In a literal sense, the early church was pretty much only Jews, but in a broader metaphorical sense, Paul said in Romans 11:16ff that Israel was like an olive tree that had some branches broken off so that branches of other trees (the Gentile nations) could be grafted in. The book of Romans actually talks a lot about how the physical differences between Jews and Gentiles are not nearly as important to God as the differences of the heart.
Thu Dec 17, 05:16:00 PM 2009 
 Daystar said...
What if this had simply been a conflict between two nations, would it seem okay for all these Plilistines or Israelites to have died then?
Thu Dec 17, 06:27:00 PM 2009 
 Daystar said...
Job wasn’t a Jew, Melchizedek wasn’t. Uriah the Hittite wasn’t. In Israel there were hired laborers, merchants, captives of war, Canaanites who had not been executed or expelled from the Promised Land, as well as various kinds of transients. (Josiah 17:12-13 / Judges 1:21 / 2 Samuel 12:29-31 / 1 Kings 7:13 / Nehemiah 13:16) God gave protection to the alien resident in the Mosaic Law (Leviticus 19:33-34) Before attacking a city of the nations the army of Israel were to warn them first, giving them the opportunity to peacefully surrender. (Deuteronomy 20:10-15) Israel was not to war with Ammon, Edom or Moab (Deuteronomy 2:4-5, 9, 19), unless they were provoked (Judges 3:12-30; 11:32-33 / 1 Samuel 14:47)
Thu Dec 17, 06:52:00 PM 2009 
 skanksta said...
Blogger rgoodwi3 said...
His love of brutality is universal?
His love for all things is universal - both good and (apparently)evil. We do know that God decided to have an earthly son, that crucify him. God's own blood sacrifice meant he didn't have to punish sinners anymore.
Fri Dec 18, 02:24:00 AM 2009 
 busterggi said...
Aw davey, wasn't anyone in the OT a real Jew?
Were they all British as DBA would like us to believe?
And how generous to offer surrender to slavery instead of genocide!
Fri Dec 18, 09:00:00 AM 2009 
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 15 December 2009God kills Eli's sons
There was an old priest name Eli, who had two sons, Hophni and Phinehas. Like Eli, his sons were priests, but they were bad priests who didn't know God, stole meat from burnt offerings, and had sex with women at the door of the tabernacle.
The sons of Eli were sons of Belial; they knew not the LORD. 1 Samuel 2.12
If any man said unto him, Let them not fail to burn the fat presently, and then take as much as thy soul desireth; then he would answer him, Nay; but thou shalt give it me now: and if not, I will take it by force. 2.16
Eli … heard all that his sons did … how they lay with the women that assembled at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. 2.22
Eli talked to his sons about it and tried to get them to change their ways, but they wouldn't listen to him since God had already decided to kill them.
They hearkened not unto the voice of their father, because the LORD would slay them. 2.25
Before killing Eli's sons, though, God tormented Eli a bit. First, a "man of God" tells Eli that God will "consume his eyes" and "grieve his heart" and make sure that all of his descendants will die young.
A man of God ... said unto him, Thus saith the LORD ... I will cut off thine arm... There shall not be an old man in thine house for ever ... I shall ... consume thine eyes and ... grieve thine heart. 2.27-33
Then, just in case the first message didn't get through, God sends another one to Eli through the boy prophet, Samuel. It takes God three tries to deliver the message, but he finally does. And it's the same nasty message: God will make everyone’s ears tingle by punishing all of Eli's unborn descendants for the sins of his sons.
The LORD said to Samuel, Behold, I will do a thing in Israel, at which both the ears of every one that heareth it shall tingle. I will perform against Eli all things which I have spoken … I will judge his house for ever … because his sons made themselves vile, and he restrained them not. 3.11-13
Samuel delivers the message to Eli and he responds the way believers always do. (God can do whatever he wants -- however absurd, cruel, or unjust -- and they will call it good.)
It is the LORD: let him do what seemeth him good. 3.18
So now God had to figure out how he was going to kill Eli's sons.
And that's where the Philistines came in. God used them to kill Eli's sons, along with a 34,000 Israelite soldiers.
In the first battle, the Israelites lost 4000 men.
The Philistines put themselves in array against Israel: and when they joined battle, Israel was smitten before the Philistines: and they slew of the army in the field about four thousand men. 4.2
Which surprised the heck out of the Israelites, since God was supposed to be on their side.
So they went to get the ark of the covenant, figuring it would protect them from the Philistines.
When the people were come into the camp, the elders of Israel said, Wherefore hath the LORD smitten us to day before the Philistines? Let us fetch the ark of the covenant of … that … it may save us out of the hand of our enemies. 4.3
Along with the ark, they also got Eli’s sons, Hophni and Phinehas.
So the people sent to Shiloh, that they might bring from thence the ark of the covenant of the LORD … and the two sons of Eli, Hophni and Phinehas, were there with the ark of the covenant of God. 4.4
When the ark came to the Israelites’ camp, they all shouted at once, causing an earthquake.
When the ark of the covenant of the LORD came into the camp, all Israel shouted with a great shout, so that the earth rang again. 4.5
The earth shook so much that the Philistines felt it at their camp, and they knew just what it meant. God was with the Israelites and he was on their side.
The Philistines were afraid, for they said, God is come into the camp. And they said, Woe unto us! for there hath not been such a thing heretofore. 4.7
The Philistines had heard what God did to the Egyptians and they were afraid that now he’d do it to them. So they all said together: “Woe is us.”
Woe unto us! who shall deliver us out of the hand of these mighty Gods? these are the Gods that smote the Egyptians with all the plagues in the wilderness. 4.8
Then they snapped out of it and started to act like Philistines, and killed another 30,000 Israelites.
The Philistines fought, and Israel was smitten, and they fled every man into his tent: and there was a very great slaughter; for there fell of Israel thirty thousand footmen. 4.10
And, in the process, they also killed Eli’s sons.
The ark of God was taken; and the two sons of Eli, Hophni and Phinehas, were slain. 4.11
Just as God said he would do in 1 Samuel 2.25 (I gave God credit for 34,002, 34,000 Israelite soldiers and Eli’s two sons: Hophni and Phinehas.)

  God's next killing: God smote them with hemorrhoids in their secret parts
Posted by Steve Wells at 12/15/2009 09:27:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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13 comments:
 matt311 said...
Yes, Steve; they should be included.
When I was a child, I always thought God punished Eli because Eli was stupid; he kept thinking Samuel was an idiot until the third time he woke him up in the middle of the night (though, that's probably just Bible-logic in action). God's a nasty bastard, so, boof! Sons get killed, Ark gets captured, and Eli keels over and dies.
Oh, what a happy day it must have been for God, to make an old man die so horribly.
Tue Dec 15, 09:53:00 AM 2009 
 Brucker said...
Ah, I was wondering what the deal was with the numbering system.
Tough call; I think it's clear God was judging the Israelites for something, if only for using the Ark in an irreverent fashion. That being said, I'd go for a "yes" on the 30,000, but unsure on the 4,000 in the first wave. That may have just been bad luck. (Yeah, looking back, that's pretty much what I said when I covered chapter 4.)
Tue Dec 15, 10:02:00 AM 2009 
 twillight said...
Isn't this the 58th killing instead of the 55th?
Tue Dec 15, 01:40:00 PM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
twillight,
Yeah, in a way it should be the 58th killing (since it is the 58th that I've discussed at the blog), but since I'm trying to number them in the order that they occur (the Biblical order, anyway), it is the 55th.
I know it's a mess and it's an accounting nightmare for me, but I can't see any other way to keep track of things.
Tue Dec 15, 07:22:00 PM 2009 
 busterggi said...
HEY!
Don't forget to count all those naughty priest's descendants.
Don't shortchange Yahweh.
Wed Dec 16, 06:21:00 AM 2009 
 skanksta said...
Seconding the 30,000 but not he first wave of four thousand.
It's not clear enough that they're yahweh's imo.
Wed Dec 16, 04:24:00 PM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
I'm still not sure what to do with the 34,000 dead Israelites. Unlike Brucker and skanksta, I'm a bit more confident in ascribing the first 4,000 to God than the second 30,000. The Bible doesn't say that God was responsible for either killing, but it does say that the Israelites thought the first was God's doing.
I think if God hired a good Bible lawyer, she could make a fairly convincing case for "not guilty" for the deaths of the 34,000 Philistines. So I guess I'll let God off on those. (But he gets full credit for Eli's sons.)
Thu Dec 17, 10:08:00 AM 2009 
 Brucker said...
Well, if you're going to give credit for Eli's sons, you might as well toss in Eli himself, as well as his daughter-in-law. They're pretty much a package deal.
Thu Dec 17, 04:50:00 PM 2009 
 Daystar said...
What is interesting to me is that these events were recorded for an example. The skeptic is torn between not acknowledging them as ever having taken place or that it is a pretty good idea not to mess with God. Eli and his sons and the Israelites and the Philistines should have known better. Especially the Israelites.
Thu Dec 17, 06:22:00 PM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
Daystar: "The skeptic is torn between not acknowledging them as ever having taken place or that it is a pretty good idea not to mess with God."
I can't follow you here, Daystar. What are the two things I'm torn between?
Brucker: "you might as well toss in Eli himself, as well as his daughter-in-law.
Did God kill them too, Brucker? Where does the text say that?
Thu Dec 17, 07:33:00 PM 2009 
 Brucker said...
I tend to read 1Sam 2:33 as implying all the people in Eli's family (including Eli himself) died as a result of that curse.
Thu Dec 17, 09:59:00 PM 2009 
 busterggi said...
Absolutely include them!
Don't shortchange yahweh's bloodthirstiness.
Fri Dec 18, 09:02:00 AM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
Yeah, you're probably right, Brucker. God probably killed Eli and his daughter-in-law, but the 1 Sam 2:33 isn't very clear about it. So I think I'll leave it off the list and just add a note about it.
Fri Dec 18, 10:13:00 AM 2009 
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 12 December 200950,070 killed for looking into the ark of the Lord
In his last killing, God was busy fashioning hemorrhoids and placing them in the Philistines' secret parts. Stuff like that gets annoying after a while.
So the Philistines asked their priests how they can get God to stop. The priests told them to make five golden hemorrhoids and five golden mice as trespass offerings, and put the ark and the offerings in a cart pulled by two cows. Then let the cows go wherever they choose. If they go toward Bethshemesh, then it was God who was striking the people with hemorrhoids in their secret parts.
The Philistines called for the priests and the diviners, saying, What shall we do to the ark of the LORD? And they said, If ye send away the ark of the God of Israel, send it not empty; but … return him a trespass offering: then ye shall be healed … What shall be the trespass offering? They answered, Five golden emerods, and five golden mice … take the ark of the LORD, and lay it upon the cart; and put the … trespass offering … and send it away … And see, if it goeth up by the way of his own coast to Bethshemesh, then he hath done us this great evil: but if not, then we shall know that it is not his hand that smote us: it was a chance that happened to us. 1 Samuel 6.2-9
Since that sounded like a reasonable plan, that's what they did. And the cows headed straight for Bethshemesh "and turned not aside to the right hand or to the left."
They laid the ark of the LORD upon the cart, and the coffer with the mice of gold and the images of their emerods. And the kine took the straight way to the way of Bethshemesh.  6.11-12
So the world now knows for sure that it was God who killed the Philistine people by putting hemorrhoids in their secret parts.
That would have been a happy ending, I suppose, except some of the Bethshemeshites looked into the ark. So God had to kill 50,070 of them.
He smote the men of Bethshemesh, because they had looked into the ark of the LORD, even he smote of the people fifty thousand and threescore and ten men: and the people lamented, because the LORD had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter. 6.19
Stories like this can only be found in the Bible.
God's next killing: The Lord thundered great thunder upon the Philistines
Posted by Steve Wells at 12/12/2009 08:33:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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4 comments:
 matt311 said...
I'm imagine the poor peoples' faces alternately melting and exploding, for some reason...
Nice guy, that God, huh?
Sun Dec 13, 03:19:00 AM 2009 
 busterggi said...
Maybe the Philistines shoulod have put a 'Do Not Open til Christmas' sign on the cart.
Sun Dec 13, 08:46:00 AM 2009 
 skanksta said...
Four enormous posts in four days - I'm in heaven !
Mon Dec 14, 05:06:00 AM 2009 
 bleh said...
Maybe they had radiation burns from the ark, or a bio-logical weapon from the moses god. Everyone with possession of the ark got sick, chalked up to punishment from him.
Fri Oct 11, 07:03:00 PM 2013 
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 12 December 2009God smote them with hemorrhoids in their secret parts
You may have noticed at the end of the last killing, that the Philistines stole the ark of the covenant from the Israelites. And that’s when their troubles really began.

The Philistines brought the ark to Ashdod and set it up next to their god, Dagon.
The Philistines took the ark of God ... unto Ashdod ... into the house of Dagon, and set it by Dagon. 1 Samuel 5.1-2
The next morning Dagon had fallen on his face.
When they of Ashdod arose early on the morrow, behold, Dagon was fallen upon his face. 5.3
So they put Dagon back in his place, but the next morning he had fallen down again, and this time his head and hands had fallen off, so he was no more than a stump.
When they arose early on the morrow morning, behold, Dagon was fallen upon his face to the ground before the ark of the LORD; and the head of Dagon and both the palms of his hands were cut off upon the threshold; only the stump of Dagon was left to him. 5.4
Then God started to get nasty. He destroyed the people of Asdod and smote those that survived with hemorrhoids.
But the hand of the LORD was heavy upon them of Ashdod, and he destroyed them, and smote them with emerods (hemorrhoids). 5.6
So the people of Ashdod decided to send the ark to another Philistine city: Gath.
What shall we do with the ark of the God of Israel? And they answered, Let the ark of the God of Israel be carried about unto Gath. And they carried the ark of the God of Israel about thither. 5.8
And then God smote the people of Gath, the small and the great, with hemorrhoids in their secret parts.
The hand of the LORD was against the city with a very great destruction: and he smote the men of the city, both small and great, and they had emerods in their secret parts. 5.9
After that, what do you think the Gathites decided to do with God's ark? They sent it to Ekron.
Therefore they sent the ark of God to Ekron. 5.10
When the ark arrived at Ekron, God did the usual thing: he killed most of the people and gave the rest hemorrhoids.
There was a deadly destruction throughout all the city; the hand of God was very heavy there. And the men that died not were smitten with the emerods: and the cry of the city went up to heaven. 5.11-12
The Bible doesn't say how many people God killed in Ashdod, Gath, and Ekron. So I'll just call it 3000, 1000 from each city.
God's next killing: 50,070 for looking into the ark of the Lord
Posted by Steve Wells at 12/12/2009 05:55:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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58 comments:
 Daystar said...
Some scholars believe the jerboas (small jumping mouse like rodents) who were terrorizing the area (1 Samuel 6:4-5) brought the bubonic plague to the Philistines through flea infestation, though the Bible doesn’t specifically state this; in fact it seems to indicate the jerboas brought only harm to the vegetation. The Philistines were a source of trouble for the Israelites, tempting them with their idols and false gods. (Judges 3:3-4)
Sat Dec 12, 08:40:00 PM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
Yeah, that's true Daystar. But if God gave them bubonic plague, that would be even worse than hemorrhoids.
How do you feel about a God that gives gives people bubonic plague (or hemorrhoids) to punish them for -- what? Having the ark in their city? Being Philistines? Worshiping gods that their parents taught them to worship?
A god who would give people hemorrhoids or the bubonic plague is a sick fuck that everyone should stay the hell away from. (Of course that's easy to do since he's non-existent.)
Sat Dec 12, 09:07:00 PM 2009 
 Daystar said...
I try to look at it from all angles; being as practical as I can. If God is non-existent that means man made up this story and he is the sick fuck I want to keep away from. If, on the other hand, this God does exist and this story is true there are two choices before me. Either reject this God and live my life until death eternal. In other words, curse God and die. Or notice that God is very good to his faithful servants and very bad to those who are disobedient, so be an obedient servant in paradise forever. In either case the last thing I would want to do is waste time complaining about this God. Either he is a joke that isn’t worth my time or I’m on the wrong side of reason and I got a short amount of living to do and better get on with it.
Sun Dec 13, 02:36:00 AM 2009 
 matt311 said...
Wow... so, hemorrhoids is apparently a divine punishment for keeping the Ark; I wonder if that poor warehouse guard from the end of Raiders got bad hemorrhoids after the movie?
Nope, nope; too much to think about...
Sun Dec 13, 03:17:00 AM 2009 
 twillight said...
First, I think you should involve the killing of the 4000 israelites amongst Yahwe's killings. Wether the Lord of Hosts directly smiten them or just helped the philisteans, he is definitly responsible for the loss.
Second: some "scholar" says the Arc was a nuclear device. Sounds as good as a portable-bubonic-plague-spreading-container-what-only-infects-plants.
Bullshit faiytale.
Sun Dec 13, 04:24:00 AM 2009 
 busterggi said...
Davey your god is psychotic, no amount of your weaseling will change that.
Sun Dec 13, 08:50:00 AM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
twillight,
I don't see how I can include the 4000 Israelite deaths in 1 Sam 4:2. The Israelites were a superstitious bunch and attributed everything to God. But the Bible doesn't in this case say that God helped the Philistines kill the Israelites. Does it?
Sun Dec 13, 09:41:00 AM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
Daystar,
So you are afraid that the God of the Bible might exist and if you don't believe in him he might give you hemorrhoids or the plague or something even worse.
But what about Allah, Daystar? Allah might exist, and if he does you will be tortured forever in hell for not believing in him. It's all described in gruesome detail in the Quran.
There are thousands of gods to choose from and each has the same amount of evidence for belief: zero.
But OK, let's assume the God of the Bible exists. And he gives people hemorrhoids just for the hell of it. I can see how you could fear and hate such a monster, but how could you pretend to love him?
Sun Dec 13, 09:55:00 AM 2009 
 twillight said...
Well, Steve, the israelites says it, and they are the only one who attributes things to their god, so for me at least the Bible says so.
But its your opinion that counts in the end. And yes, the narration do not says anything about the matter.
Sun Dec 13, 11:33:00 AM 2009 
 Daystar said...
Steve,
You were a man of the sea, and you know that the sea has taken the lives of many, and yet you love the sea. You know that if you respect the sea and know how to obey its rules you may not be killed by it. So how is it that you don’t understand my love for Jehovah God?
As a sailor you might have been called to kill for your country. Many atheist who scorn God for killing are political. They put their faith in the kingdoms of men. How many lives were taken in wars in the last century? 200 million or so?
We have to ask ourselves why did God do all of this killing you’ve been on about?
Sun Dec 13, 12:58:00 PM 2009 
 twillight said...
Well, Daystar Steve likes and not loves the sea.
Second: the sea is a blind force, and not an inteligent entity.
Third: I think Steve likes what he can do with/in the sea, and not the sea itself.
Forth: Steve do not think/hallucinate that the sea gives commandments to him.
Fifth: Even by knowing the rules you can die on the sea, because there are no real rules, and the sea do not care.
Sixth: sailors do not called to make war. Soldiers are.
Seventh: as a sailor you don't want to obey, but to control the sea.
Eighth: many religious person involved in politics too. So?
Ninth: earthly kingdoms are real, as well as earthly beings. Gods and such are imagenary.
Tenth: humans are not perfect, good or caring, unlike you claim your god is.
Eleventh: Most wars, even in the last cetury was made because of religious reasons.
Sun Dec 13, 03:46:00 PM 2009 
 busterggi said...
Davey, why would you love something out fear?
Are you a masochist?
Are you into being dominated & humiliated?
Sun Dec 13, 03:54:00 PM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
Daystar,
You say, "We have to ask ourselves why did God do all of this killing you’ve been on about?"
I agree. That's what I would like believers to ask themselves. And if they have an answer tell us about it.
Sun Dec 13, 09:01:00 PM 2009 
 Brucker said...
"I agree. That's what I would like believers to ask themselves. And if they have an answer tell us about it."
And yet, when one does so, you can't even agree to disagree.
You and I are more alike than I think you'd like to admit. Both of us say that we'd like to hear all the arguments from the opposing camp, yet we repeatedly and perhaps stubbornly fail to be convinced.
Sun Dec 13, 11:07:00 PM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
I posted your guest post, Brucker. And I will post more if you you or other believers provide them. What more do you want?
Most believers don't know about most of God's killings in the Bible, and those that do pretend they aren't bothered by them. I'd like to point them out before they can be covered up by theological perspectives or empty platitudes (you've got to cruel to be kind, we can't judge God, whatever God does is right, etc.)
Mon Dec 14, 06:52:00 AM 2009 
 Brucker said...
I'm not saying that you're not willing to listen, in fact, your willingness to listen is a large part of my point. I'm pointing out that we've gone back and forth on this stuff for years (I'm pretty sure a lot longer for you than for me) and nobody's opinion is being changed on any major issues.
Here's a platitude for you: you're preaching to the choir. At least you're doing a good job of it.
Mon Dec 14, 11:24:00 AM 2009 
 Daystar said...
The answer to the question is obvious. From Adam to Armegeddon. Sin = death. Sin is to miss the mark set by God. God created us so he knows that it leads to destruction. He wants his creation to live forever, but they have to do it his way because he knows his way is the right way. All of the people you count as God having killed lived as a result of his creation. Otherwise they would never have been alive. They were already dead. The children Brucker was talking about, the Philistines . . . they were all already dead.
Mon Dec 14, 12:14:00 PM 2009 
 busterggi said...
Tell you what, Davey, Brucker - why don't you two believers fight it out so we know which of you is "right" and then the rest of us can debate the winner.
Because you disagree with one another so one of you has to be a false believer.
Mon Dec 14, 03:52:00 PM 2009 
 Brucker said...
busterggi, there's just not a big enough sample size with the two of us. How are we supposed to know God's will unless He slaughters 20,000 or so of us?
(Am I a bad Christian to have a sick sense of humor?)
Mon Dec 14, 07:05:00 PM 2009 
 Daystar said...
Buster also thinks that I love God out of a fear of death, which is ridiculous. I doubt that buster thinks there is such a thing as a good Christian; that’s probably the only thing buster and I would agree on. Mark 10:18
The fact is that to God, life is sacred but there are many scriptures which indicate that those who are spiritually dead, though alive are worse off than those who are physically dead though spiritually in good standing in the memory of God. In the book of life.
God says that he delights not in the death of the unrighteous but that he rejoices in the turning away from unrighteousness as a preservation. Life everlasting.
When God sees that the inclination of a person or people is beyond turning back - the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah, including children, and the 42 children mauled by the Syrian bears for example then it isn’t surprising that their unfortunate demise, in certain periods of Biblical history, serves as an example.
Mon Dec 14, 09:50:00 PM 2009 
 busterggi said...
Davey, your own posts like the one earlier in this thread
"You were a man of the sea, and you know that the sea has taken the lives of many, and yet you love the sea. You know that if you respect the sea and know how to obey its rules you may not be killed by it. So how is it that you don’t understand my love for Jehovah God?"
Shows your 'love' is nothing but fear.
& Brucker, now that Davey has said you are not a good Christian can we hear your reply?
Tue Dec 15, 05:48:00 AM 2009 
 skanksta said...
"When God sees that the inclination of a person or people is beyond turning back - the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah, including children, and the 42 children mauled by the Syrian bears for example then it isn’t surprising that their unfortunate demise, in certain periods of Biblical history, serves as an example."
Lol!
Okay, I'd normally just think "lol" to all the nonsense you write, but I'll explain the stupidity of this statment..
Take the example of both myself and Adolf Hitler.
Me first, I went to a church school - in Britain religious education is compulsory until the age of 16 - as is daily worship.
(It's a free country and you can be exempted from all/any of this if you believe in different Gods/Son of Gods/Followers of Gods/Divine servants of Gods/Ways of sacrificing to Gods etc. than whatever Gods or God you school happens to promote)
My school happened to promote the Bronze Age Jewish War God - Yahweh - and in particular that Jesus wasn't a man at all, but the one and only incarnation of God on Earth, made flesh. I would clearly be one of those "seeds" that fell on stony ground. I had every opportunity to understand that I could achieve eternal salvation by worshipping God in the correct way.
Yet I and almost everyone else in the entire school, failed to follow the words of God. We didn't sacrifice unblemished animals, we didn't burn them alive on precisely made altars - even though we all know that such 'aromas are pleasing to the lord. We didn't put 'the lord' in capitals, we refer to Jesus as Jesus no the christ. We routinely blasphemed, made graven images, cheeked our parents and played conjuring with magic sets. The school promoting this God didn't even do it properly ! They allowed women teachers ! They let women talk in the school chapel !
Worst of all, there were one or two poor, unfortunate figures at school - a girl whose face had been hideously disfigured by burns and a guy with genetically abnormal legs - but both of these were welcomed by our chaplain in to the school chapel !
I guess it's not really my fault which such a monster bringing freaks in to the congregation of the Lord. There were even some people allowed in to that congregation of the Lord that had an illegitimate ancestor at some point in the last ten generations of ancestors - for shame!
Thus, me and almost everyone else in the entire school, came to believe that Jesus was just a deluded cult leader and that God was just another primitive fairy tale, like Ra, Horus, Joseph Smith, Vishnu, Mohammed and (my FAVOURITE God) John Frum.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/vanuatu/1333146/John-Frum-is-given-his-marching-orders.html
Tue Dec 15, 06:38:00 AM 2009 
 skanksta said...
I began openly defying God DAILY. In thought and deed and action. I ignored all religious instruction. I lived my life as if the bible and everything in tit was a load of primitive deluded nonsense. I ignored myriad instructions, once put a bible in the recycling bin, even to the point of writing blasphemies such as this online....
Yahweh almost certainly is the work of primitive men. The bible has no relevance to our lives. Jesus was a deluded cult leader. If Yahweh does exist he is SICK. YAHWEH IS A SERIOUSLY WEIRD SADISTIC LOONY. JESUS WAS NO DIFFERENT TO DAVID KORESH. MOST OF THE BIBLE IS NASTY BACKWARD BIGOTRY.
I COULD go on and on, but the point is the bible is CRYSTAL CLEAR in many verses that I'm due a fireball/pustules/burning/first son and first pet kitten killed etc.
Along with almost the entire indigenous population of Britain, not to mention Europe, Australia and even some rationalists in NOrth America I have most definitely heard the (ah-ah-ah-ahem) "good news" about Jesus, God and the HOly Ghost, yet flatly refute, belittle, ignore and ridicule it. In addition I often work Friday nights, Saturday during daylight and Sunday !
WHERE ARE THE FIREBALLS ?!
Now, I mentioned Hitler, because of course, many Christians are decent people and would think that God in his plan has decided not to burn me in hell FOREVER. He doesn't beset me with punishments now and might even kindly only burn me in torment for a few thousand years, before allowing me in to his kingdom - because I don't seriously transgress any IMPORTANT moral laws. I've never enslaved or stoned anyone for example and therefore 'new god' will ignore his own precise and clear instructions and let me in.
I'm getting bored now - I REALLY only wanted to write "Lol!" remember - so I'll leave you to come up with some mental gymnastics to explain the logic of Hitler..
Tue Dec 15, 06:39:00 AM 2009 
 Daystar said...
Shanksta,
I'm sorry, I must have missed your point - something about Hitler?
Tue Dec 15, 07:13:00 AM 2009 
 Brucker said...
Daystar: Buster also thinks that I love God out of a fear of death, which is ridiculous.
It's very difficult to explain the concept of reverential fear to someone who doesn't believe in God. It's not fear of death, but fear of something far more scary. (See post here.)
busterggi: Brucker, now that Davey has said you are not a good Christian can we hear your reply?
It's a fact that most Christians seem to have forgotten, despite the popular bumper-sticker slogan: "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven." Christians, "true" Christians, are people who have recognized the evil in themselves and yielded to God's will, so no, there are no "good" Christians.
skanksta: JESUS WAS NO DIFFERENT TO DAVID KORESH.
Wow, seriously? 'Cause I'm not seeing it.
Daystar: I'm sorry, I must have missed your point - something about Hitler?
Yeah, that one went whoosh right over my head, too. Must be a "rationalist" thing.
Tue Dec 15, 09:45:00 AM 2009 
 skanksta said...
Ok, I was getting bored, I thought you might have the imagination to work out where I was going with Hitler. Maybe I just shoulda stuck to "Lol!"
My point was that there can be no doubt AT ALL from your holy book that I will get AND deserve all kinds of nasty, vile punishments for my various sins. (including, but not limited too... ignoring and ridiculing your god, taking the lords name in vain, putting Ba'al in my Facebook religion, working on sunday, submitting to women teachers, wearing mixed garments and so on and on and on.
If your holy book IS true - then why the hell have I not been specifically and unambiguously punished ???
I hoped you might have the imagination to realise that I metion Hitler, because he's shorthand for evillest guy of all time.
ie.
you two might say that your god has lightened up and realised i'm not actually EVIL and not kill/maim/torture me - despite the myriad crimes against I regularly commit against him.
Yet, you said in your post...
"When God sees that the inclination of a person or people is beyond turning back..the 42 children mauled by bears...then it isn’t surprising that their unfortunate demise, in certain periods of Biblical history, serves as an example."
So....
Your god kills all these 30m+ people in horrid, painful ways, often when they are innocent, yes ?
Being far more morally advanced than imaginary, bronze-age, war gods you wrestle with your conscience over these killings and decide they must be some sort of 'lesson', yes ?
Yes, BUT then you have no logical problem with your god NOT intervening in the case of Hitler - who, we must remember was horribly mean to your god's chosen people.
Why not ? Why does your god kill and torture all sorts of people for the most minor 'lesson' but NOT smite Hitler, STalin, Pol-Pot, &c. &c. &c.
This logical problem calls for a new hypothesis - a hypothesis that your god is just another imaginary god like all the others. No more real or in control of human events than Mohammed, Vishnu, David Koresh, Buddha, Ra, Thor, Prince Phillip, Poseidon, Mohammmed, Al-lat, Allah, JuJu and any of the other thousands of imaginary gods that have been created by other cultures in other times.
Now, @ Brucker,
you seem a nice fella and certainly disgusted by all this bloody stuff. Whenever Steve brings us the nxt hilarious episdoe of horror you ALWAYS answer with some strange cognitive dissonance, for eg.
Tue Dec 15, 01:41:00 PM 2009 
 skanksta said...
for example...
"It's very difficult to explain the concept of reverential fear to someone who doesn't believe in God. It's not fear of death, but fear of something far more scary."
and all the other sad stuff you came out with.
It's sad because you're a nice guy with more advanced morals than your own god.
I can see your brain making more and more painful gymanstics. Your decent self KNOWS that it's weird that you have to fear god, but your religious side has to make ANOTHER excuse for him.
If you consider it empirically and try and a new hypothesis - that god is imaginary - you will find that you can finally ENJOY the bible for the amusing, disgusting, gorefest it is.

Now apologies, for the length of that reply that you have to read over THREE pages.
I really will stick to "Lol" next time !
Tue Dec 15, 01:50:00 PM 2009 
 Brucker said...
Speaking of mental gymnastics. Note that skeptics, when given no response will say, "See? The fundies have no answer for this!" When given a response, however, suddenly "...your religious side has to make ANOTHER excuse for him..."
I'd love to take a poll: how many of you would rather have all the Christians pull a Mike and just leave so you can sit around and pat yourselves on the back for figuring out this Bible stuff that apparently nobody before Steve Wells ever thought of, or do you enjoy discussions with people holding a different viewpoint? Personally, I enjoy the dialogue, but if I'm just annoying everyone here, I'm sure I could find better ways to spend my time.
Tue Dec 15, 04:14:00 PM 2009 
 Daystar said...
Shanksta,
Okay . . . There can be doubt in “my holy book” that you will get all kinds of nasty, vile punishments for your various sins. Moses killed a man for insulting his people just before being selected by God to deliver his people from slavery, and write the Law of the nation God formed. King David, beloved of God, sent an honorable man to his death so he could shag his wife. Paul persecuted and killed Christians before he became one himself.
Now, you may be “all that” but I doubt your mischievousness in school pants can compare to the above. Anyway, although I am not the judge I can’t say for sure that Hitler won’t be in paradise before me. The least sin is equal to the greatest. If I were the judge you and Hitler would be in paradise as well as myself so long as you were of the right mental inclination. Judging by your attitude I would guess that if the end came tomorrow your chances would be slim, but 20 years ago I sounded quite a bit like you. If God sees the heart, and he does, then he may know something about you that you and I don’t.
Why haven’t you been struck down with lightning or ass tumors yet? If you were as enthusiastic about listening as you are about projecting you would have noticed I said in Bible times as an example given that they were foreknown by God to have a faulty mental inclination towards destruction. Not just their own. So, it doesn’t seem surprising that God put to death the children who mocked Elisha were probably of the same ilk that gave Elijah before him a hard time, and though it isn’t divulged if their mental inclination, or spirit, if you will would have resulted in the same as Saul AKA Paul, who led the mob in the killing of Stephen, the first Christian martyr I would hazard a guess the outcome was somewhat different for a reason, wouldn’t you agree?
Now, by the end God will have allowed the death of billions of people, from, as I said, Adam to Armageddon, including Jesus Christ, for the same reason. Sin. Jesus, though, is the only one of them that hadn’t sinned so instead of complaining about it I would recommend an adjustment in attitude because, if you could ask Adam - it doesn’t bode well for you as such. Jesus, after all, though without sin rebuked the man who called him good, saying none are good except God.
Tue Dec 15, 06:52:00 PM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
Brucker,
"Here's a platitude for you: you're preaching to the choir. At least you're doing a good job of it."
Well, I try, Brucker. And you're probably right about the choir. I'm just hoping that they'll all start singing soon.
But there are two groups that I'd like most to reach: Bible believers who have never read the Bible, and those who have never read the Bible and haven't decided yet what to make of it.
I'd like believers to know what they believe in (most have no idea), and prospective believers to know enough not to believe.
Tue Dec 15, 08:16:00 PM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
Daystar,
You answered the question, "why did God do all of this killig?" with this, "Sin = death. ... All of the people you count as God having killed lived as a result of his creation. Otherwise they would never have been alive. They were already dead. The children Brucker was talking about, the Philistines . . . they were all already dead."
So when God burned people to death for complaining, like he did in Numbers 11, they were already dead. And you can't kill people who are already dead.
When God drowns people, smashes them with burning stones, buries them alive, forces friends and family to kill each other, etc. -- he's not really killing people because they are all already dead.
No one can ever kill anyone, because everyone is already dead. (And it's OK for God or anyone else to kill anyone because everyone is already dead anyway.)
Thanks for clearing that up, Daystar.
Tue Dec 15, 08:58:00 PM 2009 
 Brucker said...
"But there are two groups that I'd like most to reach: Bible believers who have never read the Bible, and those who have never read the Bible and haven't decided yet what to make of it."
Sounds reasonable to me. Do you think you're actually doing it?
Tue Dec 15, 08:59:00 PM 2009 
 Daystar said...
Steve,
I also said: "The fact is that to God, life is sacred but there are many scriptures which indicate that those who are spiritually dead, though alive are worse off than those who are physically dead though spiritually in good standing in the memory of God. In the book of life.
God says that he delights not in the death of the unrighteous but that he rejoices in the turning away from unrighteousness as a preservation. Life everlasting."
Let the dead bury the dead meant let the spiritually dead bury the literal dead. " 'I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob’? He is the God, not of the dead, but of the living." Jesus said, long after Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were dead.
Tue Dec 15, 09:17:00 PM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
"Do you think you're actually doing it?"
A little bit, maybe.
But the cumulative effect of hundreds of skeptic sites is taking a huge toll on religion. The nasty, cruel, and crazy stuff in the Bible was rarely mentioned and little known before the internet. Now it is shouted everywhere.
It is becoming increasingly difficult for a believer to be proud of the Bible. Once pride turns to outright shame, belief will dwindle away.
Tue Dec 15, 09:25:00 PM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
So which is it, Daystar?
Is everyone already dead so killing people is no big deal (as you say here), or is life sacred and killing is wrong (as you say here)?
Tue Dec 15, 09:46:00 PM 2009 
 skanksta said...
Brucker - when you say...
"I'd love to take a poll: how many of you would rather have all the Christians pull a Mike and just leave so you can sit around and pat yourselves on the back for figuring out this Bible stuff that apparently nobody before Steve Wells ever thought of, or do you enjoy discussions with people holding a different viewpoint?"
I'd have to say that's the first time a "fundie", (as I'm learning to call these new class of people!) has made me think, "touche!"
I poll 1 for Brucker staying ! And I'll try and be nicer.
I DO like the dialogue and I'm 'meeting' some nice people, like yourself that I would never have known existed before.
I've read through all of Steve's blog and The Brick Testament now and I realise there's no point arguing against people that voluntarily disobey there own logic and it's possibly quite mean too.
In the spirit of solidarity with all mankind, I am now going to thoroughly enjoy becoming a bible apologist for a while !
It's going to be a fun mental exercise and it will help me understand you 'fundies'. Yet again, I'd like to thank Steve and Brucker for making me realise this strange littlw world even exists !
Now I'm noticing it all the time - like watching the US PGA golf, the winner of $1m or whatever always thanks his 'god', lol! You can see all the euro commentators smiling politely - do I need to explain how stoopid praying to win golf tourneys is?!? Or, like on the news...it will say, "In America, people STILL believe in gods!" and, "Presidential candidate suffers for his Mormon faith!"
Boy that was the funniest - you see when I make that 'David Koresh/Jesus' interchangeable comment - I absolutely mean it. In Europe people think it's well funny that you have problem electing a Mormon, but demand the 'right' type of Christian, lol! Would you accept a Muslim president ? Jewish ?
What the hell does it matter what people believe in private ?
btw - You say Steve ISN'T the first, (isn't he ?!), but he SURE IS the funniest...
"After, the slaughter, god got down to the serious business of what garments to wear..."
Genuine, lol, but for the next post, I'm going to try and answer it as a 'fundie'.
Brucker and Daystar don't go !
Wed Dec 16, 01:19:00 AM 2009 
 busterggi said...
" Brucker said...
Daystar: Buster also thinks that I love God out of a fear of death, which is ridiculous.
It's very difficult to explain the concept of reverential fear to someone who doesn't believe in God. It's not fear of death, but fear of something far more scary. "
Either way its fear not love.
But thanks for slipping up for a moment and being honest.
Wed Dec 16, 06:26:00 AM 2009 
 Daystar said...
Steve,
That killing is no big deal was your words, not mine. Besides, saying the people were already (spiritually) dead was only an aside. It wasn't a reason for killing, it is only something for consideration.
Wed Dec 16, 06:29:00 AM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
Daystar,
"That killing is no big deal was your words, not mine."
Really? It sure sounded like you were saying that God's killing were no big deal. Here's how you answered the question, "Why did God do all of this killing?"
"The answer to the question is obvious. ... Sin = death. ... All of the people you count as God having killed ... The children Brucker was talking about, the Philistines . . . they were all already dead."
Sounds to me like it's no big deal to you. Everyone sins so everyone's already dead. And there's nothing wrong with God killing a bunch of dead people.
Or were you trying to say something else?
Wed Dec 16, 07:42:00 AM 2009 
 Daystar said...
Steve,
It's no big deal to me because these people lived thousands of years before I was born. If I get killed because someone robs me and some guy from the distant future goes through the police records to count "how many people died because of money" I doubt it would be a big deal to anyone with a savings account then.
Its no big deal to you because you don't even think these people were real. None of this happened, its all a myth, just ask twillight. He knows, he was there. Perhaps next you can address how many trolls were killed in the Lord Of The Rings.
The answer to why all of the killing is all about sin, going all the way back to Adam. I don't think that you can properly address the killing without consideration of sin. Had Adam not sinned, none of those people, including Jesus, would have had to die. None of the Philistines or Eli's sons, or any of us.
It is far more important to be spiritually alive and well than living a brief life in sin and then being dead forever, unless you just don't want to live according to God's standards.
Ardent skeptics and atheists don't demonstrate any interest in discovering eternal life in paradise Earth and God isn't going to shove it down their throats. So to God, they, like the Philistines who you counted as having been killed by God were as good as dead. It was only a matter of relatively a short period of time.
How many skeptics are going to change their mind and strive for eternal life with Jehovah God, without sin, disease, and death? Now that, to God, is a big deal, as I pointed out earlier. God doesn’t delight in the destruction of the wicked he delights in their turning away from sin. He wants them to live forever on earth in peace, without death. But if they don’t want to what do you expect him to do?
It is their choice, isn't it? Just as it was Adam’s choice.
Wed Dec 16, 09:48:00 AM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
Daystar,
"It's no big deal to me because these people lived thousands of years before I was born."
Time has nothing to do with it. It would be as wrong for God to burn people to death for complaining (as he supposedly did in Numbers 11:1) as it would be for me to burn my children to death for complaining about tonight's dinner.
If it's no big deal to you if people are burned to death, you have no human decency left in you at all.
"Its no big deal to you because you don't even think these people were real. ... Perhaps next you can address how many trolls were killed in the Lord Of The Rings."
God's killings are a big deal to me because more than two billion people believe in the God of the Bible and, therefore, believe that these killings were done by God. Yet most of these believers don't know about God's killings. I'd just like them to know about the God they say they believe in (and discourage others from believing in such a monster).
If a couple billion people begin to believe in the Lord of the Rings the way that you believe in the Bible, then I might start counting dead trolls.
Wed Dec 16, 10:32:00 AM 2009 
 Brucker said...
skanksta, thanks for my first good laugh of the day, you're becoming quite hilarious.
"I'd have to say that's the first time a 'fundie', (as I'm learning to call these new class of people!) has made me think, 'touche!' "
Most people take "fundie" as a derogatory term, actually. I like to throw it around as I tend to lose my "fundie cred" by being politically liberal despite being pretty well theologically conservative.
"I've read through all of Steve's blog and The Brick Testament now and I realise there's no point arguing against people that voluntarily disobey there own logic and it's possibly quite mean too."
It's not a disobeying of logic; it's a realization that logic only takes one so far. (Don't worry, that link goes to a much shorter essay than the last one.)
"...do I need to explain how stoopid praying to win golf tourneys is?!?"
No, I've always thought the idea of God being intimately involved in sporting events is a silly one.
"Would you accept a Muslim president ? Jewish ?
What the hell does it matter what people believe in private ?"
Personally, I advocated that a Mormon President would be a good thing, at least in theory. A person's religious beliefs aren't as important in everyday life as their moral values. I'd gladly vote for an atheist so long as I believed their values were solid.
Wed Dec 16, 10:55:00 AM 2009 
 Brucker said...
busterggi: "Either way its fear not love."
Wrong, you're missing the point. Here' let me give a very straightforward and down-to-earth example: I love my wife. (I can't prove this any more than I can prove the existence of God, but I'm hoping you'll take my word.) Becuase I love my wife, Christmas presents a unique fear: fear that I can't possibly find a present that will express how much I love her. That's real love, and real fear, not only coexisting, but the latter existing because of the former.
Steve Wells: "It sure sounded like you were saying that God's killing were no big deal."
Maybe you confused something he said with something I said?
Wed Dec 16, 11:08:00 AM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
Brucker,
No, I meant to say that Daystar doesn't think God's killings are a big deal. (The people were already dead, it was a long time ago, it was all caused by Adam's sin, or whatever)
It's true that you don't seem to be troubled by God's killings either, and I think for similar reasons. You both seem to have a theological perspective that covers a multitude of God's sins, though I suspect your theologies are quite different. (Unless you've become a JW lately.)
Wed Dec 16, 11:21:00 AM 2009 
 Brucker said...
Ah, Daystar is a JW? I didn't realize. That makes things much more interesting.
Among other things, the JW view of Hell is quite different from the fundamentalist view.
Wed Dec 16, 12:06:00 PM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
Well, I should let Daystar speak for himself about his beliefs. I can only speculate based on things he's said in the past at the SAB discussion board.
But he has many beliefs that are similar or identical to the JWs. Among these are (correct me if I'm wrong here, Daystar) that Adam was created by God in 4026 BCE; Jesus returned in some strange way in 1914; there is no hell and there's room for only 144,000 in heaven (it was filled up in 1935, so don't even think about going there), with everyone else that survives Armageddon living forever on Paradise Earth; and that Jesus isn't who you think he is (he's really the archangel Michael in disguise).
I'll let Daystar tell us the rest.
Wed Dec 16, 12:33:00 PM 2009 
 skanksta said...
To Daystar...
"Ardent skeptics and atheists don't demonstrate any interest in discovering eternal life in paradise Earth"
That's not true at all !
I'd LOVE to live forever. I'd love to spend eternity after death with my family and friends. I'd love to be full of love and light and know that my death in this life wasn't the end. 72 gorgeous virgins wouldn't be bad either. Maybe a fine feast in grand banqueting hall with a load of mighty warriors would be cool.
Find it hard to see how submitting to imaginary beings like Allah, Odin and Yahweh might help is all.
Wed Dec 16, 04:37:00 PM 2009 
 skanksta said...
A JW ! ?
Are they the ones that believe they should let their own children die, instead to blood transfusions ?!
Cool, I'm wanna know more..
What is their hell like ?
Why was the 3rd hottest girl (Marcella!) in school one of them ?
Why don't they like blood transfusions ?
ARe they thinking of changing their name to Yahweh's Witnesses ?
Might even join...
Wed Dec 16, 04:41:00 PM 2009 
 Daystar said...
Brucker, I am not, nor have I ever been a JW, though my beliefs, such as on hell, are for the most part similar.
Thu Dec 17, 05:57:00 PM 2009 
 Daystar said...
Steve, My beliefs are similar, but not identical. Adam was created by Jehovah in 4026 B.C.E., Jesus returned in presence in 1914, though that doesn’t mean what is traditionally thought to be a return, as in physical form resulting in the end of the world. Hell is a pagan teaching adopted by apostate Christianity, there is plenty of room in heaven, but only 144,000 will go there in spirit form. Most are the meek who inherit the earth, not heaven. I believe the JW idea of 1935 as you presented it has long changed, Jesus existed in spirit form before he came to earth in human form, there he was the arch angel Michael.
Thu Dec 17, 06:06:00 PM 2009 
 Daystar said...
Shanksta, the JW doesn’t believe in hell. They have removed much of the apostate teachings of pagan influenced Christendom. Hell, the immortal soul, the trinity, rapture, Christmas, Easter and the cross are among these. They don’t like blood transfusion because blood is sacred, the soul, and the Bible, both Hebrew / Aramaic and Christian Greek scriptures warn against eating it so they figure to insert it into their veins is the same as eating it. They acknowledge the English pronunciation of God’s name as Jehovah, though they may also use Yahweh or, depending upon the language other forms.
Thu Dec 17, 06:12:00 PM 2009 
 Brucker said...
Daystar: "Brucker, I am not, nor have I ever been a JW, though my beliefs, such as on hell, are for the most part similar."
So what then, are you part of the "Bible Student" movement? You've really got me quite curious.
Thu Dec 17, 10:10:00 PM 2009 
 skanksta said...
No hell, christmas, easter, rapture or blood transfusions ?
They're the best bits !
(not going to join JW)
Blogger Daystar said...
Steve, My beliefs are similar, but not identical. Adam was created by Jehovah in 4026 B.C.E.,

I KNOW you're joking - if you really believed that you'd surely say "BC" than the PC "BCE"...
Fri Dec 18, 02:31:00 AM 2009 
 Daystar said...
Brucker, I am a student of the Bible, though independent from any denomination or affiliation, including Bible Student.
Fri Dec 18, 06:36:00 AM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
Daystar,
I would love to see how you came up with these beliefs by studying the Bible! (Although, this isn't the place for it.)
Why not have a series of posts at your new blog that explain it all for us: that Jesus was created in 4026 BCE; that he returned in 1914 (but no one noticed); that he is (or was) the Archangel Michael; and that Armageddon occurred in 1975.
I'm not interested in a verse by verse commentary on Genesis (like your doing now), but it would be fun to see a non-JW tell us why they are right about all the batshit crazy stuff they believe in!
Sat Dec 19, 11:36:00 AM 2009 
 Brucker said...
I suppose you've not read my post that deals with open-minded questioning of supposed heresy? In it I suggest that the whole "Archangel Michael = Jesus" thing is not actually something so easily dismissed. I would still argue that there are serious issues with JW theology, but I discuss there more or less how dogma should not be allowed to stand in the way of understanding truth. (I assume that's something you would agree with, Steve.)
Sat Dec 19, 02:29:00 PM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
Brucker,
"I suggest that the whole "Archangel Michael = Jesus" thing is not actually something so easily dismissed."
Cool! Maybe Daystar can find a place for you in heaven. If so, there are 143,998 seats left to fill!
Now you need to get beyond any dogma that prevents you from seeing the obvious truth of Jesus' return in 1914.
But you're close now, Brucker. If you can buy the Jesus=Archangel Michael thing, no bullshit, no matter how obvious, is beyond your belief.
Sat Dec 19, 03:13:00 PM 2009 
 Brucker said...
Heck, I could even believe the SAB! Nah, who am I kidding...
Sat Dec 19, 04:12:00 PM 2009 
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 11 December 2009God's Killings in Judges
Here's a summary of God's killings in Judges.  Killing Event  Verse  Estimated number killed  Cumulative total 
1  God delivers the Canaanites and Perizzites  Judges 1:4  10,000  10,000 
2  The Jerusalem Massacre  Judges 1:8  1000  11,000 
3  Ten Massacres, a wedding, and some God-proof iron chariots  Judges 1:9-25  10,000  21,000 
4  The LORD delivered Chushanrishathaim  Judges 3:7-10  1000  22,000 
5  Ehud delivers a message from God: a knife in the belly  Judges 3:15-22  1  22,001 
6  God delivers 10,000 lusty Moabites  Judges 3:28-29  10,000  32,001 
7  Barak and God Massacre the Canaanites  Judges 4:14  1000  33,001 
8  Jael pounds a tent stake through a sleeping man's head  Judges 4:18-25  1  33,002 
9  God forces Midianite soldiers to kill each other  Judges 7:22, Judges 8:10  120,000  153,002 
10  A city is massacred and 1000 burn to death because of God's evil spirit  Judges 9:23-33  2001  155,003 
11  The Ammonite massacre  Judges 11:32-33  20,000  175,003 
12  Jephthah's daughter  Judges 11:32-33  1  175,004 
13  The spirit of the Lord comes on Samson and he murders 30 men for their clothes  Judges 14:19  30  175,034 
14  The Spirit of the Lord comes upon Samson and he kills 1000 men with the jawbone of an ass  Judges 15:14-15  1000  176,034 
15  Samson's God-assisted act of terrorism  Judges 16:27-30  3,000  179,034 
16  A Holy Civil War  Judges 20:35-37  65,100  244,134 
There are other notable killings in Judges that involve God in one way or another. I didn't include them in God's killings since it wasn't entirely clear (to me at least) that God was directly involved. Here are a few posts about these killings.
Shamgar killed 600 Philistines with an ox goad
The Massacre of the Peaceful, Unsuspecting People
Judges 19: Gang rape, dismemberment, and body part messages
The End of Judges: Two genocides and 200 stolen virgins
Let me know if I missed any or if I got some of the numbers wrong.
Posted by Steve Wells at 12/11/2009 09:05:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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 UNRR said...
This post has been linked for the HOT5 Daily 12/12/2009, at The Unreligious Right
Sat Dec 12, 06:10:00 AM 2009 
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 10 December 2009The End of Judges: Two genocides and 200 stolen virgins
My last post was about the God-inspired civil war between the tribe of Benjamin and the other Israelites, which was God's way of dealing with that messy affair involving the Levite and his concubine.
Now it's time for the rest of the story.
 As you'll recall, God told the Israelites to fight the Benjamites three times. In the first two battles, the Israelites were defeated and 40,000 of their soldiers were killed. But the third time "God smote Benjamin," killing 25,100 of them. But 600 Benjamites survived.
But six hundred [Benjamite] men turned and fled to the wilderness unto the rock Rimmon, and abode in the rock Rimmon four months. Judges 20:48
After the battle, the Israelites killed everything (human and animal) in every Benjamite village, town, and city and then burned everything to the ground.
And the men of Israel turned again upon the children of Benjamin, and smote them with the edge of the sword, as well the men of every city, as the beast, and all that came to hand: also they set on fire all the cities that they came to. Judges 20:48
But then they remembered the 600 surviving Benjamite soldiers.
 Where the heck were these guys going to find wives, since the Israelites had killed all the other Benjamites and they all swore to God at the Mizpeh concubine body part meeting that none of them would "give" their daughters to any Benjamite?
Now the men of Israel had sworn in Mizpeh, saying, There shall not any of us give his daughter unto Benjamin to wife. Judges 21:1
Then they thought of a great solution. They'd check the records of the Mizpeh meeting and see who didn't show up when they got a body part in the mail.
And they said, What one is there of the tribes of Israel that came not up to Mizpeh to the LORD? And, behold, there came none to the camp from Jabeshgilead to the assembly. Judges 21:8
It turned out that Jabeshgilead was absent. So they sent 12,000 soldiers to Jabeshgilead to kill everyone in town except for the virgin women. That produced 400 virgins, which they delivered to the Benjamite survivors at the rock Rimmon.
And the congregation sent thither twelve thousand men of the valiantest, and commanded them, saying, Go and smite the inhabitants of Jabeshgilead with the edge of the sword, with the women and the children. And they found among the inhabitants of Jabeshgilead four hundred young virgins, that had known no man by lying with any male ... and they gave them wives which they had saved alive of the women of Jabeshgilead: .Judges 21:10-14
 But shit! There were 600 Benjamites, so they were still 200 virgins short. Where the fuck were they going to find 200 more virgins?
Well, someone heard about this dancing festival that they had at Shiloh. So they had the remaining 200 Benjamite men hide in the bushes and catch the Shiloh virgins when they came out to dance.
Therefore they commanded the children of Benjamin, saying, Go and lie in wait in the vineyards ... And see, and, behold, if the daughters of Shiloh come out to dance in dances, then come ye out of the vineyards, and catch you every man his wife of the daughters of Shiloh ... And the children of Benjamin did so, and took them wives, according to their number, of them that danced, whom they caught. Judges 21:20-23
So each of the 600 surviving Benjamite soldiers got a virgin and everything worked out according to God's plan.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In the comments, busterggi asks, "So what was Yahweh's plan?"
It's a fair question. Let's see if we can figure it out from the text of Judges 19-21.
There are some things that are clear enough. God approved of the Israelite civil war between the Benjamite tribe and the rest of the Israelites. We know this since God was directly asked three times (Judges 20:18, 23, 28) by the non-Benjamites whether they should attack the Benjamites. In each case, God said yes.
Which side he was on is less clear, however. The first two times that he told the non-Benjamites to attack, they were routed by the Benjamites and lost a total of 40,000 men. But the third time, "the LORD smote Benjamin" and 25,100 Benjamites died (which was nearly all of them). What God had in mind in the first two battles is anyone's guess, but he seems to have favored the non-Benjamites in the overall war.
Which makes you wonder, why did God want the Israelites to fight against each other, and why did he want the non-Benjamites to win?
To answer that we have to go back to the Levite and his concubine. That was, after all, the only justification for the war. The men of Gibeah were Benjamites, the Benjamites refused to hand over the men of Gibeah (all of them, I guess) to the non-Benjamites to be killed, so the non-Benjamites had to go to war with the Benjamites. God must have accepted this justification for war, since no other is even hinted at in the story.
So God approved of the war, but did he approve of the way the Israelites were called to war? That is, did he approve of chopping up the concubine's body into 12 pieces and sending the pieces to the 12 tribes of Israel? (I guess even the Benjamites got a piece.) Well, he certainly never voiced any disapproval. And there is another similar message that he definitely approved. Shortly after Saul became king, "the spirit of God came upon Saul ... and he took a yoke of oxen, and hewed them in pieces, and sent them throughout all the coast of Israel." (1 Samuel 11:6-7). This was a call to war -- and Saul did it under the influence of God's spirit. So chopping up dead bodies and sending them as messages is something that God inspires people to do. So we can be pretty sure that God approved of the rotting concubine body part messages.
OK. So God approved of the war, was rooting for the non-Benjamites, and most likely approved of the call to war message. But how about the genocide after the war?
That is a harder question. But God had plenty of chances to object if he disapproved. And (as readers of this blog well know) he often performed genocide himself and commanded the Israelites to do likewise. So I think he was OK with the genocide of the Benjamites.
But what about after the genocide. Did he think the 600 surviving Benjamites needed wives? Did he approve of the vow (to him) that the non-Benjamites made to not "give" their daughters to Benjamites? Did he think it was OK to kill everyone in Jabeshgilead except the virgin women in order to get 400 wives for the Benjamites? And did he approve of the abduction of the Shiloh girls for the remaining 200 Benjamites?
I would say that the answer to each of these questions is yes. God approved of it all. It was all a part of his plan and everything worked out just the way he wanted it to.
What do you think?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
God's next killing: Eli's sons and 34,000 soldiers

Posted by Steve Wells at 12/10/2009 03:49:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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11 comments:
 busterggi said...
So what was Yahweh's plan?
Because I can't the point in any of this.
Thu Dec 10, 04:58:00 PM 2009 
 Brucker said...
To show everyone how f****d up everything is when people don't have a basis for morality. (Whether you buy that or not.)
Thu Dec 10, 05:38:00 PM 2009 
 twillight said...
Well, in order:
- chopping up the body: It was made by Yahwe's holy man, and he is never blamed for it, so it was a holy thing, Yahwe's thing to do. That is clear.
- the genocide after the war: Well, they were in WAR with the pesky benjaminites, yes? So according to the rules of war by the Lord of Hosts that was the perfect way to fight a war.
- Elohim most certainly approved the "resurrection" of the 12th tribe of the 12 tribes (from the 13 tribes or something), as he promised for all the children of Israel the Land of Canaan. And he didn't prevented the vow that was made by the israelites, so he approved that vow, so his plan was to things go this way.
And yes, as far as I can tell, all the story is based upon the sentence in Judges 19.1: "And it came to pass in those days, when there was no king in Israel".
The lesson of it is: "If you aren't lead by a mad dictator, you shall perish."
Fri Dec 11, 01:51:00 AM 2009 
 busterggi said...
The ancient Hebrews had a basis for morality - the laws supposedly given to them by Yahweh.
Didn't help.
Fri Dec 11, 04:32:00 AM 2009 
 matt311 said...
Yep; even when the damn laws were given, Moses goes apeshit with genocide after he comes down from the mountain.
Steve, thank you for the further clarification, but you've got a quick spelling error in your post (if the religious can't attack you over what you're right on, they'll nitpick your spelling errors as a way to discredit you):
In the sentence beginning with "After the battle...", you've accidentally doubled up on "and" (for instance, "in every Benjamite village, town, and city and and then burned everything to the ground."; I'd fix that.
By the way, nice dig at Paul Harvey in the opening line; now, we know... the rest of the story. ;-)
Fri Dec 11, 08:04:00 AM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
Thanks matt311. The damned double and strikes again!
Fri Dec 11, 08:26:00 AM 2009 
 Kirk Yetton said...
Hmm, I have serious doubts over you'e interpretation here. You presume that God favours the Benjamites over the non-Benjamites because they are defeated, but despite this more Benjamites die than non-Benjamites. It seems pretty clear that God favours neither side, he's punishing both.
You've also followed the idea that just because disapproval is not expressed God must obviously approve. We've discussed this before, it doesn't follow. As anyone with an ounce of logic will point out, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. The same goes for the suppositions you've made in your pre-penultimate paragraph. Likewise, the fact that God approves of Saul sending out pieces of oxen does not indicate that he approved of the concubine being chopped up and posted out. I like to think there's a difference between an oxen and a person. God certainly accepted animal sacrifices but he never accepted human sacrifices.
That much of what was going on did not have God's approval in the final verse (which is repeated from chapter 17 verse 6): "In those days Israel had no king; everyone did as he saw fit." Or rather nobody really paid attention to what God may or may not have wanted. They went their own way.
Sat Dec 12, 01:08:00 PM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
Kirk,
You presume that God favours the Benjamites over the non-Benjamites because they are defeated, but despite this more Benjamites die than non-Benjamites. It seems pretty clear that God favours neither side, he's punishing both.
No, it seems to me that God favored the non-Benjamites because he directly told them go to war with the Benjamites three times, and he did this because he was angry with the Benjamites since they belonged the same tribe as the gang from Gibeah.
Or do you think God wanted to kill 65,100 Israelites for no apparent reason at all? It was just another one of God's war games.
Sat Dec 12, 08:03:00 PM 2009 
 Kirk Yetton said...
Sorry, that was my mistake there. I meant to write that you presume God favours the non-Benjamites. I maintain that he was punishing both sides.
Sun Dec 13, 07:24:00 AM 2009 
 Abeille said...
Kirk writes, "God certainly accepted animal sacrifices but he never accepted human sacrifices."
Are you sure about that?
Sat Dec 19, 11:32:00 PM 2009 
 inka said...
this is a great blog. Thanks Steve.
This is one of the most shocking stories in the Bible because it goes against what is known (I am just learning about this stuff so forgive me if I get it wrong) as morality in its most primitive form. There is the belief that without religion or a belief in God people would do evil whenever they felt like it and then there is another camp that believes the sense of right and wrong comes from a deeper place in our pschology that can be related to when we hung out in small family groups and chose to be nice to our tribal buddies to ensure our group survives. Robert Hinde did surveys on moral precepts and found that tribes in South America with no formal religion and barely any contact with the Western world made the same moral judgements as those who were religious and as those who were athiets in his test studies. The common denomenator was that all groups were firmly opposed to making a choice to involve/use an 'innocent' bystander who is not in harms way to save other innocent people who are in harms way. (Eg: 5 people are about to be hit by a train, but if the fat man sitting on the bridge is pushed he may stop the train in time - of course he would die in the process) ... This Biblical story has a judge - No less than GOD - throwing the people of Jabesh Giliead in harms way as well as the extra 200 virgins of Shilo who have had nothing to do with any of the crimes committed. A third party (innocent by all standards) is chosen by a judge to carry the burden, the sentence, the punishment... This goes against a very ingrained human morality that spans the globe and for arguments sake every culture in it.....
and it is by far not the only story in the Bible that is horrific because its so offensively immoral and GOD !!!! is the judge !!
x x inka x x.
Mon May 03, 02:01:00 PM 2010 
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 09 December 2009A Holy Civil War (It had something to do with rotting, concubine body-part messages)
Remember the story about the Levite and his concubine? You know the one where the Levite and his concubine are staying at a guy's house when a mob comes and asks to have sex with the Levite, and the host says no you can't have sex with him but I'll give you my virgin daughter and his concubine instead, so the Levite gives them his concubine and they rape her all night and she crawls back to the house and dies the next morning, and then the Levite puts her body on his donkey and goes home and chops her body into 12 pieces and sends a piece to each tribe of Israel? Yeah that one.
 Well, it's not over yet.
You see, when the 12 tribes got the pieces of decaying body parts, they immediately assembled before the Lord in Mizpeh, along with the entire population of Israel and 400,000 soldiers. (What else would you do if you got a hunk of rotting flesh in the mail?)
Then all the children of Israel went out, and the congregation was gathered together as one man ... unto the LORD in Mizpeh. And ... four hundred thousand footmen that drew sword. Judges 20:1-2
When they arrived at Mizpeh, the Israelites asked the meaning of the rotting flesh messages. So the Levite told them the nasty story that is found in Judges 19, except that he left out the part about how he gave his concubine to the mob to do with as they pleased.
When the Israelites heard this, they all said together in complete unison:
This shall be the thing which we will do to Gibeah; we will go up by lot against it. Judges 20:9
(God's just war theory: Since the town of Gibeah was where the incident with the concubine occurred, and the inhabitants of Gibeah were from the tribe of Benjamin, the other Israelite tribes must go to war with the Benjamites. This may not make much sense to you, but it does to God.)
But first the Israelites ask God what they should do. He tells them to go to war with the Benjamites, saying that the tribe of Judah should go first. (I'm skipping a bit here. See the Brick Testament for the details.) So they did that, but it didn't work out too well, and 22,000 Israelites died.
After their first defeat, the Israelites wept before God and asked him what they should do next. God said to go fight the Benjamites (again). So the next day they tried that, but it didn't turn out so well this time either. Another 18,000 Israelites were killed.
Once again all of the Israelites sit and weep before God, and ask him (for the third time) if they should attack the Benjamites. God give them his usual answer: Attack. This time he promised that he would deliver them into their hands.
And he did. It's not entirely clear, though, how many Benjamites were killed, 25,100, 25,000, or maybe both in two separate battles. But since there were only a total of 26,000 Benjamites soldiers, I'll just give God credit for killing another 25,100.
And the LORD smote Benjamin before Israel: and the children of Israel destroyed of the Benjamites that day twenty and five thousand and an hundred men: all these drew the sword. Judges 20:35
Still, it seems to me that God was also at least partly responsible for the 40,000 Israelites that were killed in the first two unsuccessful battles that he told the Israelites to fight. What do you think, should these be included in God's killings?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10 Dec 09: I've decided to add the 40,000 Israelite deaths to God's total. If you think I'm wrong about that, let me know in the comments.












God's next killing: Two genocides and 200 stolen virgins
Posted by Steve Wells at 12/09/2009 09:26:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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13 comments:
 matt311 said...
Yes; yes, they should.
Damn, this story is full of improbable events; who'd have expected this from the Bible? ;-)
Thu Dec 10, 01:57:00 AM 2009 
 twillight said...
All Hail Plancton! (= give 'im credit)
Thu Dec 10, 05:38:00 AM 2009 
 busterggi said...
The orders for war are credited to Yahweh so the deaths should be too.
Though as the Benjaminites were one of the 12 tribes of chosen people there are other issues raised.
Thu Dec 10, 05:45:00 AM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
Thanks guys. I'll add another 40,000 to God's total.
Thu Dec 10, 09:36:00 AM 2009 
 skanksta said...
Steve, my life has been empty of biblical humour for AGES. Can you not just quit your job and blog this stuff all day for us ?
This one isn't even controversial - another 40k for Yahweh !
Thu Dec 10, 04:02:00 PM 2009 
 Kirk Yetton said...
Surely the very fact that God clearly punishes the Israelites here shows that they have not been in his favour and that previous killings in Judges which this blog has ascribed to God cannot actually be ascribed to him?
Sat Dec 12, 06:58:00 AM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
Krik,
Surely the very fact that God clearly punishes the Israelites here shows that they have not been in his favour and that previous killings in Judges which this blog has ascribed to God cannot actually be ascribed to him?
So in Judges 14:19, for example, when the Spirit of the Lord came on Samson and he killed 30 men for their clothes, God had nothing to do with it?
God is proud of his killings, Kirk. Why are you ashamed of them?
Sat Dec 12, 09:37:00 AM 2009 
 Kirk Yetton said...
Perhaps I should have said most of the killings in Judges. And I'm not ashamed of them, merely pointing out facts (aside from the odd oversight).
Indeed, here God appears to be punishing the Philistines for their lack of humility.
Sat Dec 12, 12:49:00 PM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
Kirk,
Perhaps I should have said most of the killings in Judges. And I'm not ashamed of them, merely pointing out facts (aside from the odd oversight).
OK, so far the score is 1 to 0. Let's try another one. Did God help Ehud kill 10,000 lusty Moabites in Judges 3:28-29?
Oh and I like your justification for God's helping Samson kill 30 men for their clothes. "Indeed, here God appears to be punishing the Philistines for their lack of humility."
What? God helped Samson kill the 30 Philistines because they were too damn proud of their clothes?
Sat Dec 12, 02:35:00 PM 2009 
 Kirk Yetton said...
The clothes had, in effect, become their god, meaning they were rebelling against God.
The Moabites also rebelled against God.
Sun Dec 13, 07:32:00 AM 2009 
 1minionsopinion said...
How come God doesn't punish the fashion folks today? Those people are insane for clothes. Who needs 30 pairs of shoes and bags to match? I mean really. Maybe someone should kill a pile of them and say god suggested it would be a good idea. It worked for Samson..
Sun Dec 13, 07:39:00 AM 2009 
 colinjames108 said...
The death toll here was actually 25,100 not 65,100
Tue Apr 26, 03:01:00 PM 2011 
 Steve Wells said...
@colinjames,
You're right about that. 25,100 Benjamites were supposedly killed in the last civil war battle. But since God told the non-Benjamites to fight the first two battles (where 40,000 were killed), I gave God credit for a grand total of 65,100.
(I've expanded it to show the original post.)
Tue Apr 26, 08:10:00 PM 2011 
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Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
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