Saturday, April 26, 2014
Dwindling in Unbelief blog posts and comments
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
29 June 2006The Christian Hell
In yesterday's post I may have given the impression that the Muslim Hell is worse than the Christian. If so, I apologize. Hell is hell, whether Christian or Muslim.
But hell is, at least for the most part, a Christian invention. The early Christian literature described hell in detail, particularly the Apocalypse of Peter (AP).
The AP was probably written in the first half of the second century and was considered to be scripture by Clement of Alexandria. It consists mostly of visions of heaven and hell, with hell described every bit as vividly as it is in the Quran. (In fact, the Quran's hell may be derived from the traditions stemming from the AP.)
Here's what it's like in hell according to the AP.
Blasphemers are hung by the tongue over a lake of fire.
Women who adorned themselves for adultery were hung by their hair over a bubbling mire, with the men who sinned with them hung by their feet with their heads in the mire.
Women who had abortions were immersed in a lake of gore and forced to watch their aborted children cry.
Homosexuals, male and female, were thrown off a cliff and forced to climb back up, repeatedly forever.
So I really don't know which is worse, the Muslim or the Christian hell. But here is a famous painting by Hieronymus Bosch to help you decide.
Posted by Steve Wells at 6/29/2006 12:08:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
3 comments:
George Shollenberger said...
I suggest that you go to my blog at http://georgeshollenberger.blogspot.com/ and learn about the problem of relying on scriptures. My new book, The First Scientific Proof of God, will change you nd the world.
Tue Jul 18, 12:08:00 PM 2006
Nia Valentine said...
I seen what he says and You need to look up the Jesus Camp and ask you self if God loves all why whould tourture those don't follow God Especailly when he gave us free will?
Fri Oct 13, 12:34:00 PM 2006
k-rods said...
I agree with Nia. Personally I think the whole concept of God is misleading. God and Hell were created by men, to make other men, women, and children act sociably, politically, and individually acceptable.
Fri May 16, 07:44:00 AM 2008
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
28 June 2006Which hell is worse, the Bible's or the Quran's?
This would be an easy one, if only the Bible were as clearly written as the Quran. But it isn't. In fact, the Bible is so unclear about hell, that Christians disagree about whether or not there is one, and if there is, who goes there, and what it's like. Is it just a place without God (sounds good to me) or a place where you are eternally tortured by the God of Love?
The Quran doesn't have such problems. It spells out exactly what hell is and who goes there. Here a just a sampling of what it has to say.
Lo! Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment. 4:56
They will wish to come forth from the Fire, but they will not come forth from it. Theirs will be a lasting doom. 5:37
For them is drink of boiling water and a painful doom, because they disbelieved. 6:70
And the dwellers of the Fire cry out unto the dwellers of the Garden: Pour on us some water or some wherewith Allah hath provided you. They say: Lo! Allah hath forbidden both to disbelievers (in His guidance) 7:50
If thou couldst see how the angels receive those who disbelieve, smiting faces and their backs and (saying): Taste the punishment of burning! 8:50
On the day when it will (all) be heated in the fire of hell, and their foreheads and their flanks and their backs will be branded 9:35
Hell is before him, and he is made to drink a festering water, Which he sippeth but can hardly swallow, and death cometh unto him from every side while yet he cannot die, and before him is a harsh doom. 14:16-17
Thou wilt see the guilty on that day linked together in chains, Their raiment of pitch, and the Fire covering their faces. 14:49-50
We shall assemble them on the Day of Resurrection on their faces, blind, dumb and deaf; their habitation will be hell; whenever it abateth, We increase the flame for them. That is their reward because they disbelieved Our revelations. 17:97-98
Lo! We have prepared for disbelievers Fire. Its tent encloseth them. If they ask for showers, they will be showered with water like to molten lead which burneth the faces. Calamitous the drink and ill the resting-place! 18:29
The guilty behold the Fire and know that they are about to fall therein, and they find no way of escape thence. 18:53
If those who disbelieved but knew the time when they will not be able to drive off the fire from their faces and from their backs, and they will not be helped! 21:29
Behold them, staring wide (in terror), the eyes of those who disbelieve! 21:97
But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads, Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they would go forth from thence they are driven back therein and (it is said unto them): Taste the doom of burning. 22:19-22
The fire burneth their faces, and they are glum therein. 23:104
For those who deny (the coming of) the Hour We have prepared a flame. When it seeth them from afar, they hear the crackling and the roar thereof. And when they are flung into a narrow place thereof, chained together, they pray for destruction there. 25:11-13
It will be a hard day for disbelievers. On the day when the wrong-doer gnaweth his hands, he will say: Ah, would that I had chosen a way together with the messenger (of Allah)! 25:26-27
But as for those who disbelieve, for them is fire of hell; it taketh not complete effect upon them so that they can die, nor is its torment lightened for them. Thus We punish every ingrate. And they cry for help there, (saying): Our Lord! Release us; we will do right, not (the wrong) that we used to do. ... Now taste (the flavour of your deeds), for evil-doers have no helper. 35:36-37
Those in the Fire say unto the guards of hell: Entreat your Lord that He relieve us of a day of the torment ... although the prayer of disbelievers is in vain. 40:49-50
Those who deny the Scripture and that wherewith We send Our messengers. But they will come to know, When carcans are about their necks and chains. They are dragged Through boiling waters; then they are thrust into the Fire. 40:70-72
Lo! the tree of Zaqqum, The food of the sinner! Like molten brass, it seetheth in their bellies As the seething of boiling water. (And it will be said): Take him and drag him to the midst of hell, Then pour upon his head the torment of boiling water. 44:43-48
Those who are immortal in the Fire and are given boiling water to drink so that it teareth their bowels. 47:15
So which is worse? I'm not sure. I'll leave that for the Christians and Muslims to fight about.
Posted by Steve Wells at 6/28/2006 12:32:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
2 comments:
Richard Hurst said...
There's nothing in the Qu'ran to suggest that hell is forever, that is, an eternal punishment. It's within the realm of Muslim orthodoxy to view hell as a sort of purgatory-- a hellish place of correction (but this is by no means the only view). The English translation of the Greek "aionian" is what screws up the New Testament-- aion means, well, eon, and should mean "a long time" but not forever. Somehow, it's always "eternal" in English-language Bibles. Otherwise, Jesus doesn't get to promise us eternal life in the Gospel of John, and that's a problem for Christianity's claim to exclusive salvation and truth (if that's your bag). ("eternal/aionion" obviously goes in front not just of punishment but also of "life;" therein lies the translation problem.)
The problem is "Islam" doesn't exist. It's a continuum of religious thought. Likewise, Christianity doesn't exist. Ditto. Truth is, only believers exist. Or non-believers, as the case may be. These are really the same people, just at different times of the day. "Lord, I believe, help thou my unbelief."
Thu Aug 10, 09:19:00 AM 2006
weavehole said...
I wonder if I'm the only one who keeps on reading Lo! as lol?
Fri Jun 25, 06:56:00 AM 2010
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
26 June 2006"Thine eye shall not pity her"
In a previous post I mentioned that the Quran (5:38) requires the amputation of a thief's hands. Many Christians, no doubt, would consider such a punishment cruel, yet the Bible requires the very same punishment for much different crime.
What crime would be punished so severely, you ask? Well, I'll let the Good Book tell you directly:
When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets: Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her. -- Deuteronomy 25:11-12
So the Bible says that in certain circumstances we must cut off a woman's hand, and we must do so without pity.
There are some Christians who believe that the Bible's laws (including the one above) should be enforced today just like they were in the time of Moses. I suspect, however, that most Bible-believers would disagree.
I'd like to understand the reasoning of believers who would refuse to follow God's law -- that is, who would refuse to cut off a woman's hand without pity as commanded in the verses quoted above.
Would it be right or wrong to enforce the law today (assuming a woman was guilty of the "crime" described above)?
Would it have been right to cut off her hand a few thousand years ago but wrong today?
Posted by Steve Wells at 6/26/2006 10:18:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
No comments:
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
24 June 2006The Ten Commandments: Jesus couldn't name them all either
Last week on the Colbert Report, Rep. Lynn Westmoreland (co-sponsor of a bill requiring the display of the Ten Commandments) couldn't name the Ten Commandments. He only listed three on the show, although his office claims he got to seven, but the other four were edited out.
If he did make it to seven, then he should feel pretty good about it, since Jesus only came up with five when he was asked the same question in the gospel of Matthew, and the last one on Jesus' list is from Leviticus 19:18, not the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:2-17, Deuteronomy 5:6-21).
. . . if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He [the rich young man] saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. -- Matthew 19:17-19
(Notice that the only commandments that Jesus lists are the good ones -- the secular humanist ones that deal with relationships among humans. Nothing about worshiping one god, making graven images, honoring the Sabbath, or taking the Lord's name in vain -- nothing that is about God.)
So let's give Westmoreland a break here. If he couldn't name all the ten commandments or named a few that aren't in the Big Ten, then so what? Not even Jesus could name them all correctly.
As Westmoreland's press secretary said, "I challenge anybody outside of the clergy to try to (name them all)." Both Jesus and Westmoreland failed that challenge; but then, they're not members of the clergy.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here's a fun video about the Ten Commandments numbering problem.
Posted by Steve Wells at 6/24/2006 08:51:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
6 comments:
Brucker said...
I've been able to name all ten commandments since I was a kid. I'm surprised to occasionally hear statistics on what a small percentage of the population can name them all. (Of course I recognize the real irony is this guy supporting a law mandating the ten commandments' display, and not being able to name nore of them if not all.)
I'm curious, could you name them all, Steve? I'm guessing if any atheist could, you could.
Tue Jul 18, 01:12:00 PM 2006
Steve Wells said...
I'm not sure I could, though I think I could do better than Westmoreland or Jesus.
They aren't numbered in the Bible and they're numbered differently by Catholics and Protestants. To try to deal with the numbering problem, the Eagle's Ten Commandments monuments had to make various versions to try to satisfy everyone. Eventually they just gave an un-numbered list of eleven commandments and let the reader number them however he or she saw fit.
Tue Jul 18, 02:05:00 PM 2006
Ray said...
Um... there's only TEN. Ten!!! I think any of us who sat through CCD or Sunday School as kids could name them. Or get to at least, like, nine. TEN!!! It's not like trying to name all the books of the bible or anything. With that one, I could probably get between three and seven...
Sat Aug 26, 08:18:00 AM 2006
jg said...
Nope. Can't name 'em. And I went to church 3 or 4 times a week for the first 12 years of my life.
Mon Sep 18, 09:17:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Oh, it's much better than this!
Remember that "Matthew" copied and "corrected" the gospel of Mark, and not only does Jesus in Mark not name them all, he gets one of them WRONG:
MK10:19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
Wed Mar 21, 03:25:00 AM 2007
Mickey said...
I was always taught that the 10 commandments were what moses brought down from the mountain. And people usually display them in tablet form in there houses and other places. If you asked most people they would agree that what moses brought down from the mountain on the tablets were the 10 commandments. Now the first commandments that god supposedly gave to the jewish nation were the ones that said do not commit adultery, do not kill, do not steal, do not bear false witness, honour thy father and mother and so on. At the point of giving the 10th commandment the children of israel ran away because of all the noise and stuff coming from the mountain. They told moses that they didn't want to hear god anymore because the were scared and he should go back and get the rest of the commandments. So he did and god continues to give moses other commandments. So if the children of israel hadn't ran away we would have more than 10 commandments. god continues to give out commandments in the remaining part of Exodus 20 and the commandments don't stop until chapter 24 of Exodus. So we could well have had "the 147 commandments". Moses is instructed to come up the mountain in chapter and god gives him a bunch more commandments all the way over to chapter 31. And as you probably well know moses destroys the tablets because of the golden calf incident. Well along about chapter 34 moses is instructed to come back up the mountain and god gives him ten commandments:
(1)Thou can only worship god.
(2)Do not make any graven images.
(3)The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep.
(4)All that openeth the matrix is mine.
(5)Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest.
(6)And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.
(7)Thrice in the year shall all your menchildren appear before the LORD God.
(8)Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left unto the morning.
(9)The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God.
(10)Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.
Then the following happens: "And the lord said unto moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with israel. And he was there with the lord forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments".
What did that last sentence say? The ten commandments. That was what was on the tablets moses brought down off the mountains, not the other stuff about adultry, killing, stealing and all the others. But religious people still claim something else as the 10 commandments. Of course jesus didn't call them the 10 commandments but only. the commandments. But religion has made the 10 commandments a contradiction. me, I'm a agnostic and don't know if I can believe any of this stuff.
Thu Aug 23, 10:18:00 PM 2012
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
21 June 2006Oral Sex according to the Scriptures
There's a debate raging among feminist bloggers on the merits (or demerits) of women performing oral sex on men. So I thought I'd search the scriptures to see what I might find.
The results can be found at the SAB on the following pages: What the Bible, Quran, and Book of Mormon say about oral sex.
For a summary of what the New Testament Epistles have to say about marriage and oral sex, be sure to check out the Brick Testament's Instructions on Marriage.
Instructions on Marriage
Posted by Steve Wells at 6/21/2006 09:20:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
6 comments:
Brucker said...
I think I came across this section on your site before, and I disagree. While many people believe that the passages from Song of Solomon are poetically referring to oral sex, I think you're way off base on the Corinthians passage, and the Quran passage as well.
The Quran passage sounds to me like it's talking about procreation and a husband's right of ownership over his wife's body as he would own a field. The Corinthians passage is referring to sexual pleasure in general, and not neccessarily oral sex.
Tue Jul 18, 01:16:00 PM 2006
Steve Wells said...
Do you think there are any verses in the Bible or the Quran that relate to oral sex, Brucker? The ones that I marked are the closest I could find.
Tue Jul 18, 08:17:00 PM 2006
Brucker said...
Like I said, I think the ones in S.S. are appropriate, and there may be more in that book. (I'm not familiar with the Quran.) A friend of mine who is a pastor has pointed out that there are poetic descriptions for numerous sexual acts in S.S.
I once had a non-believing lesbian insist to me that Leviticus 20:13 was specifically a reference to anal sex between heterosexual Jewish men, which I found rather dubious.
Hmm... Although I don't think it was intended to be so, one might make a case for "...her mouth is smoother than oil" in Prov. 5:3, and possibly verse 15 where "Drink waters out of thine own cistern," etc. seem much more likely a reference. Proverbs 30:20 has always seemed suggestive to me, but it's probably my dirty mind.
Thu Jul 20, 12:28:00 PM 2006
beepbeepitsme said...
Haha! Gotta love the Brick Testament. :)
Thu Jan 11, 06:25:00 AM 2007
Moth said...
If it fits in do it. that's my new motto i think
Sat Mar 31, 10:31:00 PM 2007
Rhomphaia (Sword) said...
Prov 30:20 Such is the way of an adulterous woman; she eateth, and wipeth her mouth, and saith, I have done no wickedness.
Sorta like an atheist does with Scripture.
Tue Mar 22, 11:20:00 PM 2011
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
20 June 2006How to punish a thief: The Bible vs. the Quran
The Bible says that poor thieves, who cannot make restitution for what they have stolen, are to be sold into slavery.
If a man shall steal an ox, or a sheep, and kill it, or sell it; he shall restore five oxen for an ox, and four sheep for a sheep. ... If he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft. -- Exodus 22:1-3
The Quran says that we should cut off their hands.
As for the thief, both male and female, cut off their hands. It is the reward of their own deeds, an exemplary punishment from Allah. -- Quran 5:38
So what should be done with poor thieves? Should they be sold into slavery or have their hands cut off? (Or should we cut off their hands and then sell them into slavery?)
Posted by Steve Wells at 6/20/2006 10:04:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
14 comments:
Ahmad said...
let me get this straight.. rich theif can save them selfs with their wealth but poor thiefs get sold as slaves! hardly fair doný you think
Wed Jul 16, 12:20:00 PM 2008
Muhammad Farooqi said...
why a rich theif will make any theft!!!.... he actually doesn't mean to do that..
and for cutting one hand is a perfact punishment.. if there is only forgiveness.. then this thief can make more danger or big theft... or otherwise, either he... and all belonging to him or anybody who knows its outcomes, will never make theft!...
Regards
Tue Sep 29, 11:00:00 PM 2009
Jengie Jon said...
Not quite fair, slavery was time limited (maximum time 49 years actually to the next year of jubilee which was anything from 1 to 49 years away), so the thief sold in the bible was not sent to eternal punishment, but to actually work for the debts he owed.
Mon Dec 21, 05:32:00 AM 2009
Can You DIstinguish The Good & The Bad? said...
‘He who steals must steal no longer;
but rather he must labor,
performing with his own hands what is good,
so that he will have something to share with one who has need.’
Ephesians 4:28
Bible teaches about love n forgiveness more than the Quran does
Wed Dec 23, 03:48:00 PM 2009
Nick said...
I think that cutting off the thief's hand and then selling them into slavery would be kinda hard. Who would want to by a handicapped slave? maybe if he/she is just going to hold my towel or clean then maybe but you wont get much other than that.
Thu Feb 04, 01:18:00 AM 2010
Kechela said...
Always funny how atheists attack the bible out of context:
1) Jesus overturned this rule for Christianity
2) It is better to be sold into "slavery" which was more of a servitude than the modern day, exegesis slavery of the 1800's we think of today.
Enlighten on this one my intellectual superiors; all slaves were freed in Israel every 7 years. All debts cancelled, every debt gone.
BTW, what atheist in history, BEFORE JESUS PREACHED LOVE, actually taught the high morals with which you atheists now judge? None
The fact is, the world was a barbarian place where thieves were killed beyond measure and beyond the proportion of the crime they committed.
Good thing we had the Bible limiting punishments to control people's desires. Eye for an Eye is not so disgusting when you consider that they didn't have "Love they enemy" and "turn the other cheek" back then - we do, and you foolish atheists forget that those wonderful rules of love came from Christianity 2000 years before you woke up one day and thought you were smarter than thousands of years of theism.
Wed Dec 08, 08:22:00 PM 2010
11-year old Atheist said...
"Always funny how atheists attack the bible out of context"
Please see NonStampCollector's video called Context
"Jesus overturned this rule for Christianity"
I thought Jesus was God. God is Omniscient. So why not just not put the rule in the Bible in the first place?
2) It is better to be sold into "slavery" which was more of a servitude than the modern day, exegesis slavery of the 1800's we think of today."
Let see what the Bible says about the issue.
"His master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever."
-Exod. 2:16
"BTW, what atheist in history, BEFORE JESUS PREACHED LOVE, actually taught the high morals with which you atheists now judge? None"
I thought before and after Jesus atheists were killed or excommunicated. So they couldn't preach ANYTHING. Also what does this prove? Nothing! That statement proves nothing.
"and you foolish atheists forget that those wonderful rules of love came from"
When you say that you violate the wonderful rules of love that Jesus preached.
"but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."
-Matt. 5:22
Also are you SURE that Jesus' words are wonderful rules of love?
-Bye
Fri Dec 10, 01:23:00 PM 2010
ogunitracy said...
@ 11-year old Atheist
You're doing exactly what the other guy said - quoting out of context
Exodus 21:5,6
“But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,’ 6 then his master must take him before the judges. He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.
Bashing Christianity does not prove that God does not exist, by the way so I hope you have enough proof for yourself.
@ Jengie Jon
Slavery was six years maximum. The 50th year was the year of Jubilee in which they didn't plant but miraculously got food.
Sat Jun 18, 02:22:00 PM 2011
Faraz Khan said...
OMG! Muslims are so violent. Oh wait what's this??? I kept reading after 5:38 and 5:39 says: "...But whoever repents after his wrongdoing and reforms, indeed, Allah will turn to him in forgiveness."
Hmmmmmmmm. Muslim Judge to theif: I can sentence you to have your hand cut off.... unless you repent" Awwwww muslims are so violent. It shows from their statistics also, millions of people with one hand versus sooooo few in slavery in the west.
Tue Jun 05, 12:18:00 PM 2012
Faraz Khan said...
I am an idiot for reading further than Quran 5:38. 5:39..."But whoever repents after his wrongdoing and reforms, indeed, Allah will turn to him in forgiveness."
Awwwww muslims are so violent, seeing that are millions of people with a hand missing, versus sooooo few slaves in west.
Tue Jun 05, 12:22:00 PM 2012
martiendejong said...
May I suggest killing them instead? As a man with no hand is not useful, as is a stealing servant.
Also, stealing comes from inequality. By promoting equality we might be able to prevent theft.
Fri Nov 02, 06:42:00 AM 2012
Imy red said...
Total ignorance from ignorant people. It is totally forbidden in Islamic law to cut the hand of the thief if they steal for food, medicine, out of need etc etc. For the hand of the thief to be cut, the theft should be of a set significant value. Thus a poor thief would have the right to steal if he was stealing to feed himself and his family.
Sun Feb 03, 05:54:00 PM 2013
Ahmad said...
To add to the above comment. The law of cutting the hand is not activated if there are obstacles to people to make honest living and if the country is in economical resession.
Sun Feb 03, 09:44:00 PM 2013
Hasan Kamal said...
According to Islamic laws, the hand of the thief should be cut if he has stolen something. It does not belong to him and hurts the people by stealing the things.
Tue Feb 25, 11:33:00 AM 2014
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
19 June 2006The Good Stuff in the Quran: A summary
In yesterday's post, I compared the amount of good stuff in the Bible to that in the Quran and found that about 1% of the verses in each are (at least what I would call) good.
But what are the good things in the Quran? Here's a summary.
Pay the poor due.
2:43, 83, 110, 277; 5:55; 7:156; 9:18, 71; 22:41, 78; 23:4; 24:37, 56; 31:4; 58:13; 73:20; 98:5
Help the poor and less fortunate.
2:83, 177, 215, 220; 4:2, 10, 36; 5:89; 17:26, 34; 22:28; 30:38, 51:19; 90:12-17; 93:9-10
Be kind to your parents and relatives.
2:83; 4:36; 6:151; 9:60; 16:90; 17:23, 26; 29:8; 30:38; 42:23; 46:15
Seek the truth. Don't lie.
2:42, 111, 113; 3:66; 6:152; 17:36; 20:114; 22:30; 53:28
Value justice.
4:135; 6:152; 22:41; 42:42
Treat women fairly.
3:195, 4:25; 9:71; 30:21
Free the slaves.
2:177; 5:89; 90:12-17
Be tolerant toward other religions. Don't force your religion on others.
2:256; 43:88-89; 109:1,6
Don't steal from orphans.
4:2, 10; 17:34
Do good.
2:195; 4:85
Seek peace.
4:114; 8:61
Don't lend money at unfair rates of interest.
3:130; 4:161
Treat everyone fairly.
3:195, 5:8
Don't kill innocent people.
4:29, 5:32
Be kind to one another.
49:11-12; 90:12-17
Fight evil by with good.
28:54; 41:34
Don't kill your children.
6:151; 17:31
Don't fight wars of aggression.
2:190
Don't hate people.
5:8
Forgive others.
7:199
(The total doesn't work out to the number on the Good Stuff list since some verses are listed more than once.)
Let me know if there are any that I've left out and I'll add them to this list and highlight them at the SAQ.
Posted by Steve Wells at 6/19/2006 01:40:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
2 comments:
Nirosh said...
yes this help me.. thanks
damn.. how difficult it is to post a comment here..
Sat Apr 05, 05:31:00 PM 2008
Shafay Islam said...
50+ for you
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/good/long.html
Thu Aug 16, 08:24:00 AM 2012
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
19 June 2006Which has more good stuff, the Bible or the Quran?
In previous post I compared the amount of cruelty in the Bible and Quran. The Bible had more than twice the number of violent verses (843 vs. 334), but the Quran was about twice as violent when size was taken into account (5.36 vs. 2.71%).
But what about the good stuff? How do they compare? Here's a summary: Number of good passages
Bible 260
Quran 67
So the Bible has nearly four times as many good verses as the Quran. But then it's about 5 times as big. Here's how it looks when size is taken into account. Good Stuff Total verses Percent
Bible 260 31102 0.84%
Quran 67 6236 1.07%
So when expressed as a percentage of verses, the Bible and the Quran are about equal. About 1% of the verses in each could be considered good.
At least I consider them good; you might disagree. Is Leviticus 19:18 ("Love thy neighbor as thyself.") good? I think so, but that's just my opinion. How about Quran 5:32 ("Whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind.")? I think that's good too. But each person must make up his or her own mind.
I'll try to delve into this a bit deeper in a future post.
Posted by Steve Wells at 6/19/2006 10:07:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
10 comments:
keapponlaffin said...
Greetings,
I really appreciated your statistical analysis, but believe that it could be more informative. The current numbers are a bit misleading because the styles and contents of the Qu'ran and Bible are not similar. The Qu'ran is primarily philosophical/theological, whereas the Bible is filled with a significant amount of philosophically uninteresting history. If you would be up for the task, running a statistical analysis on the "deep" verses alone might be much more insightful.
Mon May 07, 09:42:00 PM 2007
dennyhardy said...
Hi
I honestly think that this is an interesting work you are doing. However, I believe you need to equipe yourself and do learn a lot to enable you to arrive into credible analyses and conclusions.
Otherwise you will fall into a kind of 'lost in translation' trap.
It might be easier to find works in English that interprete or translate Bible. Or to meet people who can recite Bible by heart either in English, French, etc. On contrary, Al Quran is only recited, memorized and publicly used only in its original language (Arabic). Its translation to other language remains nothing but an interpretation. There where we can immediately evaluate how 'reliable' is the translation. Often the translations reflect translators' level of knowledge, intelegence, hidden interests, etc..
One of the esiest examples I've found: In Quran 6:38, you put an ABSURDITY note for, 'animal are PEOPLE too'.
In fact, if you have the original version of Al Quran along with your english version, the only ABSURDITY to be noted is your translation of 'UMAMMUN' into 'PEOPLE'.
In my opinion, failing to put the arabic version of Al quran along with your English translation, wont make your site interesting enough to invite more intelectual and fair discussions. The moslems, even if many dont realize, infact preserving the originality of their holy book by using only its original language and use translation as secondary means with carefulness.
Cheers
Sat Sep 01, 04:58:00 AM 2007
Kevin said...
Hmm....it seems that this article is far less provocative than the 'which is more cruel' article.
In the June 6 post, there was outrage and there were people left and right saying "you're interpreting it wrong", or "you've taken these passages out of context", etc.
Here, there's nothing.
Wed Sep 12, 05:35:00 PM 2007
Asana Bodhitharta said...
The Bible and the Quaran are derived from the same source. The information that the author of this blog reveals his ignorance of religion as a whole.
Sun Dec 16, 11:16:00 AM 2007
Aaron said...
This is interesting, however, there are many good passages in the Bible not included on your list. For instance, a lot of people consider Revelation an epistle for quacks, but that's only because fundamentalists have hijacked it, and only since the 19th century. Rev. 21:4 beauteously reads, "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."
Also, if one compares the New Testament, which is the new covenant of the Christian faith to the Qu'ran, there is little competition. After reading the entire New Testament and many surahs of the Qu'ran, this is what I found. Also, most Christian Churches, especially mainline Protestant ones, read the word much less literally than most Muslims. For these reasons and more (i.e. sexist segregation of worship), I am much more comfortable in a liberal Protestant Church than the local mosque.
Wed Feb 03, 10:39:00 AM 2010
Eva said...
Thank you for all the analysis. This is very helpful for me. I believe in God, but I do not belong to any organized religion as I can't get over the cruft and the banalities associated with the various churches. I prefer an one on one relationship with the Divine, I don't do well in any group situations anyways. Your site helps me understand the good, the bad and the ugly. The bad and the ugly though, in these books, are not too out of line compared to other ancient religions. Before humans understood the weather patterns, the causes of diseases, the reason behind geological changes, etc, they all thought their god(s) was/were mad at them and needed pacifying. Just think of the Mayans, they threw all kinds of things/beings down those cenotes to make their rain god happy! We need to take into consideration who actually wrote these books and the era they were written. Just like children do what their parents do and not what their parents tell them to do, we tend to behave like our Creator, if we believe in one. If we want a peaceful world, we need to believe that our Creator is peaceful. From what I can tell, the hard part is to communicate the peaceful and loving messages in these books when they are all buried under piles of obscenities; one has to go in with hazmat gear, a translator, a historian and an anthropologist. Maybe it is time for these books to be re-compiled/distilled for the modern humans, so that they will be easily understood by all, not to create something new, but to remove the crud and let the light shine.
Fri Aug 20, 10:15:00 AM 2010
Jennifer said...
ALL THESE HOLY BOOKS WERE WRITTEN BY PISSED OFF JEWS AND GREEKS. I WISH THEY NEVER CAME INTO EXISTENCE!
Sun Jul 31, 08:31:00 AM 2011
Jennifer said...
You did an excellent job. I have question stuff in the bible countless times and I find religious people are experts at the art of rationalizing the irrational. The more the bible, Quran, or any other holy book is outrages, the more the rationalize and justify what is in it. Like God is some sort of human monster who can do what he want without consequence. If man kills it is against the law.
If God kills IT IS THE LAW!
I hate all of this holy mess!--Brewster
Sun Jul 31, 08:34:00 AM 2011
Asana Bodhitharta said...
These books are essential jennifer
Sun Jul 31, 12:51:00 PM 2011
Cam said...
There is a small trouble in your analysis:
what is your definition of good and bad stuff?
This need an explanation because what's good for you can be see as bad or neutral for someone else or the contrary.
In the countdown, everything that could described as positive but that is explained in the text by a god intervention has been suppressed and I'm not sure that it's fair.
For the bible part that I know more than the Quran there is no reference to Zacchaeus, the collector of taxes which accept to share his fortune with poor after having met Jesus.
Nothing about the fact that jesus made miracle for everybody without dinstinction of gender, religion nor nationality.
Nothing about the fact that jesus criticed hardly the power abuse of the jewish clergy over the jews.
Nothing about jesus forgiving his killer when he was crucified.
And more what is counted only verses or entire parts? In that count, if there is a good story should we only count the concluding verse or all the verses of the story?
For what I know Quran is less coherent than bible. So it can make sense to count only verses as they are quite independent in the quran. But for bible count only one verse that is a part of an entire bloc doesn't seems relevant to me.
And last remark. As said on a comment upper:beware of Translation.
The English grammar is very different from the grammar of original languages and if would be better to work from original text or at least with a translation annotated by the translator and check a translation in an other language than english to be sure that you're not in front of an incorrect translation or something from the original text that is very difficult to translate in english.
Wed Feb 27, 11:02:00 AM 2013
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
17 June 2006Why did God hate Esau?
Okay, the answer to yesterdays bible question (Who does God hate?) is Esau. He is the only person in the Bible (so far as I know) whom God is said to hate. (Malachi 1:3, Romans 9:13)
But why did God hate Esau? Does God hate redheads? (Gen.25:25) Hunters? (Gen.25:27) Polygamists (Gen.26:34), or what?
Can some Bible-believer explain this to me?
Posted by Steve Wells at 6/17/2006 05:40:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
55 comments:
Jesse said...
Hi my name is Jesse. I am 13 years old and i listen to my father a lot about subjects like this. From everything i haved learned, i believe that God hated Esau because he chose to hate him...it had nothing to do with what Esau did...If you read Romans 9:11, it says "Even before they had been born or done anything goood or bad..." then Romans 9:13, "...I have loved Jacob but Esau have i hated"...Clearly these verses are trying to make a point that Esau and Jacob had nothing to do with gods love, It was God chosing who he would love and who he would hate. Some people think its because Esau was an evil man, but Romans 9:11 clearly says that before they had done ANYTHING...God loved jacob and not esau...it was not up to them...it was up to God.
I hope this helps some people if they dont understand why god hated esau. But one thing i know, is that many people HATE it when i say god doesnt love everyone. Too bad people, he doesnt love everyone...so pray and ASK for acceptance FROM God...only way to heaven is through him, not us...we are nothing.
i hate to be harsh but the truth does hurt.
Sat Oct 21, 11:27:00 PM 2006
starets said...
If god's love or hate is so completely unfair, why should I care at all what god thinks of me? I could kill babies and god would love me best then Mother Teresa just because.
Even if such a god existed, everyone with any sense of morality would be moraly obligated to ignore him. Few things have ever felt better to me than finally concluding that all religion is at best fairy tales and at worst evil-intented lies.
Tue Nov 28, 06:27:00 PM 2006
steve said...
RE: Few things have ever felt better to me than finally concluding that all religion is at best fairy tales and at worst evil-intented lies.
Simply awesome, well put starets!
Fri Feb 02, 02:40:00 PM 2007
Anonymous said...
Love the presence of an emotion, hate is the absence of love. Since God did not love Esau (relative to Jacob) this might be all you need to understand the passage.
Clearly believers understand that grace is wonderful, but what would grace mean if it were dispensed equally. There is a vast philosophical literature on the desirability of equality. This theology (a special form of philosophy) is clear on the undesirability of equality.
There are degrees of understanding which have to be acknowledged. The biblical literalists will have a hard time justifying hate as the presence of an emotion. But this gets added to wrath and other anthropomorphic qualities which are assigned to God. It may be possible to believe in the New Testament (as a theology / philosophy) without accepting that the book of Genesis is literal. A similar claim about the New Testament would be devastating to any person of faith, so that would not be allowed. So in the case that the stories of genesis are a basic of common lore, the allusion to Esau as the one that God hated merely stands in for the comparison between the ones that have grace and do not have grace. Since faith is considered here as all that is needed for salvation, it becomes queerly deterministic. The major loophole in the logic comes when Paul explains that we cannot understand God, which we use human language and ideas, but that the meaning which is being approximated is not accessible by us. It is either really deep, or a major dodge. If it is not deep, it is not worth worrying over, but people of faith must believe it is deep or find something else to occupy them.
Mon Feb 19, 03:19:00 PM 2007
Anonymous said...
God does not hate in the sence that we see hate. When you read the bible you much read it as a whole not just a verse here and there.
In Mark 10 there is a man who walks away from Jesus. He rejects Him because he loves his possesions more than the truth, yet it says Jesus loved him.
Will He save him? No, but God will not take joy in that. He is, "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" 2 Peter 3:9
I believe hate here is just contrasting how great his love for Jacob was. Luke 14:26, "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."
Is He realy saying it is a requirement to hate these people here? No, absolutly not, He is saying your love for Him must be so great that your love for others seems closer to hate in comparison.
Tue Mar 13, 06:19:00 AM 2007
Anonymous said...
When you read the bible you much read it as a whole not just a verse here and there.
Reading it as a whole give only more attention to all the discrepancies, continuity errors, moral stances most people either religious or non-religous would consider ludicrous today, as well as a good dose of scientific inaccuracies.
Easiest way out of all this would be if God used his omnipotence to simply travel back in time and knock that darn apple out of Eve's hand. Or use his omnipresence right then and there to achieve the same. 8)
Sun Mar 18, 02:58:00 PM 2007
Matt said...
I think you are mistaken in your view of God and the Bible. The Bible does not have any discrepancies when read together and each passage is put into its right context. Furthermore I don't think that God hates anyone. In this passage about Jacob and Esau, what is being pointed out is that God chose to use Jacob rather than Esau to father his people that would eventually lead to Jesus. This had nothing to do with what they did, but God simply chose Jacob. This does not mean that God hated the person Esau, but rather he is using this word as a contrast in choosing Jacob over him when tradition was to choose the older son for this kind of thing. Also, looking at the life of Esau, there were no indications in the way he lived to show that God hated him.
There are other parts of the Bible where the word "hate" is used as a means of contrast and not actually to mean hating the person.
I think that whoever it was who said giving up on God is just taking the easy way out. When you truly study and keep an open mind about what is true you will find that the evidence for Christianity is overwhelming and that almost all questions can be answered.
Lastly God did not use his omnipotence or omnipresence to change what Adam and Eve did because he has given us free will. We have the choice to follow God as well as the choice to turn away from him.
Sat Jul 21, 05:32:00 PM 2007
cchriscollins said...
I have struggled with this passage but not as much why God hates Esau but why did He love Jacob. Jacob was a scoundrel, an unattractive momma’s boy. Esau was apple of his father's eye; a man's man. Why would God tell Rebecca two nations dwell in her womb and the greater will serve the lesser? What did Jacob possess to receive God's favor and what can I learn from this? Is God unfair? God says there are seven things God hates and arrogance is at the top of God's list. When I look at Jacob's actions I don't see a lot to be admired but can say arrogance is not one of them. Jacob sought his father's favor even to deceive him to receive his blessing; he worked 14 years for the love of his life; he was crippled by God when he wrestled God for his blessing. From his birth he sought to be blessed no matter how. As despicable as he was it is clear he wanted God's favor. In Esau there is no evidence of him seeking God. Esau despised his birthright; Esau broke his father's heart with women he sought for himself. Esau was strong, ruddy, self-sufficient and arrogant. He was his own god and the father of a nation of godless Edomites. King Harod was an Edomite probably the last of his line. He jailed and later killed John the Baptist for exposing his wickedness. He feared what he had done but was too arrogant to repent or seek after the kingdom of God. His kingdom was for now and he lavished on himself. He knew John's ministry and the prophecies of Christ and feared who Jesus could be. He asked Jesus if he was the Christ but Jesus never responded to him. This is the only recorded example of Jesus refusing to respond to anyone. Jesus despised the house of Herod. Today I have met many decedents of Jacob, but I have never met an Edomite but I have seen many arrogant men and nations like Esau and his decedents. Does God hate? I think so and for very good reasons. God will not be mocked.
Sat Nov 03, 09:10:00 AM 2007
RedKnight said...
"God will not be mocked" But I will anyway. LOL
Sun Dec 02, 11:40:00 AM 2007
Jrich said...
From where I stand, it seems that a God who is omnipotent and omniscient has the right and the means to love or hate whoever he wants. And to judge someone that is all-knowing seems a little arrogant to me, Starets, doesn't it? It seems that only someone with ALL the facts-- to the point of even knowing motivations behind actions-- would be able to form a pretty solid opinion of someone's character.
God reveals himself in the Bible and in creation. And he puts forth to us that there is no formula for winning his love. If you know him, respect him, and love him for who he is, then why wouldn't he love you, too? I've never read anywhere in the Bible where there was someone who truly loved God and God returned hate. Overall, I'd say that is pretty reasonable.
So if you want to judge the God of the Universe, go ahead. Seems a little silly, though, to me-- you're basically saying that if there is a God, he or she is not as good as you. Now THAT'S hard for me to believe.
I can believe that there is a creator of the Universe who created me and cares for me and is beyond my understanding. If he's smart enough to create everything I know and keep it all going, he's way smarter than I am and smarter than anyone I've ever met. It just makes sense. And if he says he hates someone, he's probably got a good reason.
Fri May 16, 10:26:00 AM 2008
William said...
Jesse made a point but in his youth missed one thing. Good job Jesse but heres what you missed.
Because God knew you before you were born means he literally knew you, talked with you and knew your very soul. It also means that God knew the direction you would take and already harbors hate because you will not change due to your very nature. He knew you were a rebellious soul and already knows you are going to rebel in the future (after being born in human life). In the Garden God said to someone and the simple Preachers who have no real love of God claim it was Christ, but they are wrong, he was talking to the serpent, Satan. he said Let's make man in our image. This is a very important line that 99% of people miss or pass over. Ask your self this, other than Adam, Eve and God there was ONLY one other that had conversation and it was the Serpent with Eve. Theres a hint Who God was talking to.
God hated Esau because Esau was in rebellion BEFORE being born from a spiritual being into flesh.
God is spirit.
Satan is flesh
Mankind is the evolution of spirit and flesh.
God knew when Esau became both flesh and spirit his rebellion would worsen as it did. Thus he hated him. Today the sons of Esau ravage the world with evil, they have inter married with all races and work to steal back the birthright Esau gave up in his rebellion. If you study this long enough and hard enough you can see them and see how they deceive others. The Edomites are lived in the past 2000 years in the very halls of power. Many of them both believers and NON believers both hate and mistrust. Problem is the Non believers often fall victim to the Edomites. I would challenge a non believer to make an exhaustive study of who they are from a biblical perspective and you may find out who they are today, by their fruits (actions).
Tue Jun 17, 03:40:00 PM 2008
William said...
To answer tour question.
First I need to clarify things as to not make my answer too confusing or complicated.
Jrich is right, but think of it this way, if your dog deliberatley poops on the carpet right in front of you in defiance most people will loose it. I have seen that happen. Now they did NOT create that dog. God not only created man, but he is the mastermind of evolution, the literal creation of "matter" and is the one who turned pure energy (spirit) into other forms (matter) yet we as rebellious people have no problem putting a boot to a dog who is defiant, but when we are defiant want to say God is harsh for doing the same. Yet we blunder through life committing acts of evil and think that THE Creator has no right. If I build a shed outside with my own hands, I have the RIGHT to destroy it, yet how can I say that God has NO right to hate me for me being evil?
God does not hate read heads Moses was a red head. Read the bible.
God hates those who he gave life to and they poke their fingers in his eye and tell him where to go. God hates those who destroy other human beings souls. leading people away from salvation violates the simple laws of the Universe. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, this law every man accepts so why not accept GODs laws, he made the other ones we accept.
Man tends to pick and choose what laws he wants to obey, we already know that ignorance of the law is no excuse, and we accept that when it comes to MANS law, but refuse to accept GODS Law.
We are pretty sad.
Tue Jun 17, 03:58:00 PM 2008
hargisP said...
The Bible plainly says why God hated Esau. It was because Esau sold his birthright for a mere bowl of stew. By selling his birthright just because he was hungry and exhausted, he was showing he despised God.
God and evolution do not go together.
Fri Jan 16, 09:34:00 PM 2009
rgz said...
Don't you think its kinda scary how Christians can read the Romans 9:11-13, (right in the new testament!) where it bends over backwards to stress that God choose to hate Esau just to prove he could hate whoever he wants and STILL insist that God is Love?
God said "I hated Esau" and Christians say "that's not what he said".
It's the essence of denialism, pure madness.
Fri Mar 06, 09:18:00 PM 2009
Steve Wells said...
rgz,
I agree. And I think Christians are deeply embarrassed by their Esau-hating God. And they should be.
God loved Jacob, yet he cheated, lied, and stole Isaac's blessing from Esau. What did Esau do to deserve God's hatred?
A God of love shouldn't hate someone for no reason at all.
Fri Mar 06, 09:29:00 PM 2009
—Avis said...
I have enjoyed reading the opinions of everyone. God is love.
Unlike us, He can not turn on Himself. We are known for self-mutilation and hatred. It's impossible for God to hate.
I am clearly unable to explain why that scripture reads as it does. Like many others in the bible: One as an example would be (from memory) about Joseph and Mary. It says, Joseph did not know Mary. Of course he knew her! It means in a sexual way, he did not know her until after she'd given birth to Jesus Christ.
The Bible is full of mysteries. Our ways are not His and neither are our thoughts like His. His ways and thinking are far superior to our own. That is one reason there is grace and mercy available to us because we accept it all by faith.
So, I try very hard not to lean on my own understanding about many things just acknowledge Him as my Lord and Savior.
Another thing I do is try to be a light and good witness but let everyone work out their own salvation. Man does not own a heaven or hell to put me in but I know who does. I would rather err on the side of heaven and believe.
I believe God is love and is incapable of emotional hatred. How do you spell relief? B-e-l-i-e-f! I believe!
Thu Jun 11, 10:17:00 AM 2009
Tim said...
In the Bible, the word hate is often used to mean 'love less' rather than the opposite of love. For example, Luke 14:26 - "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."
'Hate' is often used in the Bible to contrast with 'love'.
Mon Aug 31, 07:32:00 AM 2009
rhett said...
Hold on everyone. I used to struggle with this very scripture myself until someone who had studied this gave a group of us the translation of what God was actually saying here. It was simply this. God saw that Jacob's heart could be worked with and Esau's heart could not be worked with to accomplish what he wanted through future generations. God did not literally hate Esau but saw where Esau could not have any place in his heart for what God wanted in his life. And remember that even though Jacob received the BLESSING his leaning on a staff to walk was a symbol that to receive this blessing he must lean on God all the days of his life. Does God hate his Children the ones whom he created? No he doesn't. That's not what the word hate means hear. It could be possibly said like this. I hate that Esau's heart is the way it is and I can not use him for my purposes therefore I choose Jacob for he will make a place for me.
Wed Aug 18, 03:02:00 PM 2010
rhett said...
Hold on everyone. I used to struggle with this very scripture myself until someone who had studied this gave a group of us the translation of what God was actually saying here. It was simply this. God saw that Jacob's heart could be worked with and Esau's heart could not be worked with to accomplish what he wanted through future generations. God did not literally hate Esau but saw where Esau could not have any place in his heart for what God wanted in his life. And remember that even though Jacob received the BLESSING his leaning on a staff to walk was a symbol that to receive this blessing he must lean on God all the days of his life. Does God hate his Children the ones whom he created? No he doesn't. That's not what the word hate means hear. It could be possibly said like this. I hate that Esau's heart is the way it is and I can not use him for my purposes therefore I choose Jacob for he will make a place for me.
Wed Aug 18, 03:03:00 PM 2010
Phil said...
We have to look at what Jacob and Esau represent. Esau on the outside looks as one who is a godly man. On the inside he was a wicked man who held no value to eternal life and so he sold his birth rite for a bowl of soup. On the other hand we have Jacob who so rightly sought after the birth right Esau traded him that he wouldnt let it go. He did sin by tricking his father but it was for his eternal inheritance. He so wanted eternal life with God that he put everything in this world on the line to get. He even wrestled with God over this issue and won for he was after Gods heart and Esau was only after the things of this carnal world rather than seeking to know and have a relationship with God. God loves those who seek after the spirit and seperates those from him or makes enemy of those who seek after the flesh thus doing evil. If you look up hate in the orginal hebrew you will find this defination:
saw-nay'
A primitive root; to hate (personally): - enemy, foe, (be) hate (-ful, -r), odious, X utterly.
So yes God loves us all and wishes that we all seek him in the spirit but he gave us free will and when those of us decide to reject Him, His Son, or His Spirit we make ourselves an enemy of God and condemn ourselves in eternal seperation from God. SO I ask all of you, repent (change your sinful ways) and accept Jesus as your saviour and be baptised in the Holy Spirit and make not yourselves desolate as Esau.
Thu Aug 19, 12:30:00 AM 2010
Phil said...
And to respond to everyone else who comments on predestination... God hated Esau before Jacob before they did anything is because God stands outside of time. God is the beginning and the end forever more.. Time only belongs to those in the physical realm. God has total wisdom and knows what we are going to do before we do, yet he allows us to do it and allows us to run our course in the name of free will. We still make our own choices however God already knows the choices we will make for He is the only one with true total knowledge. In Gods eyes "It is done"
Thu Aug 19, 12:35:00 AM 2010
Johnny said...
God loves all in a sense. He has allowed man to live in a sinful, disobedient state; neglecting God, and living depraved.
However He has a special love for His saints. Romans 8:28 can be used to show this. God does not love all equally, and Jesse is pretty much a beast little kid.
Also, hate is not the absence of love. Indifference is. Hate is a form of love, some emotion towards someone is better than none at all.
Finally, to claim that religion is a fairy-tale shows only one thing. One who claims this is misinformed and ignorant, as well as close-minded.
To sum, God DOES love everyone, in a sense. The fact that we are allowed life is an act of love from God. However, deuteronomy 2 is clear that God takes delight in destroying those that oppose him, and in John he explains that His wrath abides on those who reject him. His act of "love" towards the world is that of allowance to live. His greater love towards His saints however, is that of saving grace, and only for his saints. This is His actual love, not just an act.
Wed Sep 22, 01:35:00 PM 2010
GolduckSilverblade said...
To William:
And heres the part that YOU missed mah boy. If God knew you already and what you would do in advance before you were born or became this mesh of spirit and flesh... then free will is OUT THE DOOR and being "saved" is now pointless. You have no choice in the matter no matter how good your heart may be or how hard you try. It wont matter. Tough titty. See how that works? Pretty stupid eh? Whats the POINT to Christ then and aiming to please God if in the end you will fail Him anyway just as He knew you would. LMFAO Its all rediculous. ALL OF IT.Trust me... I know... ive tried for YEARS to have faith and believe and be a good person worthy of Him all my life since I was a little one. It seems He has turned a deaf ear to my pleas and my kindness and my faith before I finally gave up. Why should I bother anymore if He never cared at all. If He ever EXISTED at all. Its HIS problem now... maybe He should have listened and should have been there for me to give me the chance He blatantly REPEATED in His "good book" that He would. Guess Gods a liar like all the rest of us. And a DAMN good one. ;)
CHEERS
Sun Oct 24, 02:58:00 AM 2010
GolduckSilverblade said...
sorry for my triple post. wasnt sure if it went thru. delete it if youd like Steve. BTW wicked site! I love it. Very awesome. So is SAB.
Sun Oct 24, 02:59:00 AM 2010
Steven said...
To GolduckSilverblade. I am so sorry that you have stopped in your search for Christ. I know the predestination/free will thing might be confusing. I would urge you to please take some time and think about it...with an open heart and mind. God sits outside of time. When He made this universe, when he created space, he also created time and set it in motion. So time is bundled with space and matter (the world that we can physically see) But God sits outside of time. That is where eternity starts...and never ends. It just IS. Its all about perspective. From his perspective "our world" is over. Heaven has already been established and the people are there who chose to be when they were inside of time.
Think of it this way: When someone dies, there soul leave our universe...they exit time. Lets say this person is going to heaven. When they get there and and look around they will see people that they just left on Earth. people that from our perspective are "still on Earth"...weird isn't it? So when your Mother dies and goes to Heaven, from our (worldly) perspective you two are separated. But when she gets to Heaven you will be there too!
We do have free will. Because we are caught in a world with time. I have the choice to choice to follow Him or live for myself. But he already knows what I will chose even if i'm unsure. Does it make it any less of a choice? NO! Right now...while I'm stuck in time... I have the choice. And sometimes it seems so much easier and all the more tempting to do the live for myself. After all if theres nothing after this life then why wouldn't you? Life is hard. We are all imperfect. Life not easy for anyone and walking in Faith is not easy for anyone. You will have second thoughts. You will have doubts. Its what we choose to do with those thoughts that determines our future...and ultimately our eternity. I really don't want to say that to scare you away. I feel like too many people use the scare tactic. That just pushes people away.
I know it can be hard to try to do your best and do good works and try to be a good person to live for God and not feel any closer to him. That is because our works (actions,words,motives) DO NOT get us any closer to God. We can not work our way to him. If we could get there by our works then we wouldn't need Jesus. We wouldn't need a Savior. Our best works look like filthy rags in Gods eyes. It is by Faith and Faith alone that we are made right with God.
Lastly I BEG you to please comment back. If you would like to talk personally about problems, concerns, anything i would be more than happy to give you an email. I am not a know it all religious person. Far from it. I am so full of imperfections and problems. If you or anyone out there has the need to talk to another imperfect sinner i will gladly be that person. We all have problems, doubts, questions, concerns about this and many other theological questions. Lets minister to each other.
Fri Jan 07, 12:18:00 AM 2011
William said...
Why do so called Christians insist that when someone dies they go directly to heaven despite the Bible saying otherwise? No one goes to heaven and no where does the bible say this. You are in the grave till that day of Judgment.
Fri Jan 07, 07:48:00 AM 2011
Steven said...
I see your point. But again its all about perspective. When someone dies they pass into a world without time. Into eternity. So the day of judgment is right then. And everyone is there. They don't have to "wait" in the the grave. Waiting is an implication of time passing. They are outside of the law of time. They die, and boom, the Day of Judgment. And people are there that they thought (from their perspective) they left on earth.
When Jesus said to the thief on the cross who put his trust in him. "Today" you will be with me in paradise. He told him "Today", not 2000+ years from now.
When that thief died he was passed into eternity(no time) and we are all there. me and you. On one side of God or the other. But from our perspective we are still here. The end has already been decided.
This is a very complicated topic because its so difficult to picture a No time. It just IS. I hope i have helped depict this even just a little. I'm sorry if my explanations are not the best.
Fri Jan 07, 10:52:00 AM 2011
James said...
Be careful not to complicate the word of the Father. he made it clear that when one dies he/she is in the grave till that time of Judgment. To say otherwise is blasphemy. The dead have no sense of time, yet they will be in the grave till that time of Judgment. The thief on the cross we know nothing about other than what the Savior Yahushuah said. We can take this one incident at face value or assume he also waits judgment. But to imply that we still technically go straight to heaven contradicts and complicates what the father said, and this crypto Romanism is a dangerous walk for anyone.
Just as Esau whom the Father hated earned this hat by his throwing away that gift of the birthright, a arrogant act of disrespect and disobedience to the laws of the almighty Father and to the Father.
Christians today lipsync the Anti-Christ Roman lies as if they were facts. The bible shows us otherwise. Ones soul is in danger is one disputes the Word of the Father.
Fri Jan 07, 11:33:00 AM 2011
Steven said...
I see. Like I said I am not an all knowing Christian person. Actually new to the faith. Can you please give me the bible verses where it talks about how you're in the grave till that day? was just going off of what I've been thought in my walk so far. What are the anti-Christ roman lies that you're talking about? Any information and help is much needed and appreciated Thanks.
Fri Jan 07, 11:45:00 AM 2011
James said...
1Corinthians 15:20-23 But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
According to this verse, the dead in Christ will remain in their graves awaiting the order of resurrection. What is that order you ask? Jesus is the "firstfruits of them that slept" And then those that are believers in Jesus will "be made alive". But when will they be made alive? According to the Bible, they will have to be made alive in the order that the Lord set up. Jesus, the "firstfruits" and then those that are His followers, "at His coming" ...Rather blunt is it not?
Fri Jan 07, 12:03:00 PM 2011
James said...
• John 11:23,24 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Martha, the sister of Lazarus understood the biblical truth about the state of the dead. She knew Lazarus wasn't going to awaken until the last day when Jesus splits that eastern sky at His second coming. The book of Job also mentions the length of sleep for the dead.
• Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
Notice the word till in that verse. This means the dead will not, or cannot awaken until the last day as Martha calls it in the previous verse shared.
Fri Jan 07, 12:04:00 PM 2011
James said...
here he questions how long shall he lie in his grave waiting to again know GOD and his savior. he fully acknowledges he knows he will have no memory, thought and existence till the second coming and resurrection.
• Psalms 6:3-5 My soul is also sore vexed: but thou, O LORD, how long? Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake. For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Fri Jan 07, 12:06:00 PM 2011
Steve Wells said...
James and Steven. Can you two talk about your walk with Christ somewhere else? Do whatever the hell you want with a dead man's rotted body. But don't tell us about it here.
Fri Jan 07, 12:10:00 PM 2011
James said...
It appears MR Wells has not the knowledge to discern or understand the difference between Pagan Roman Cult pseudo Christianity and the relative unknown of real Christianity. I once was just like him, then I discovered the truth hidden by Rome. Me Wells has asked us to take it elsewhere so if Mr Wells would indulge me and forward my email address to Steve it would be greatly appreciated. If Mr Wells would allow me I will also leave a URL http://inquisitionupdate.org/
Mr Wells might also find it interesting and in more agreement with his thoughts than he could imagine. The site owner and I are friends.
Mr Wells Thank you for your time.
Fri Jan 07, 12:37:00 PM 2011
Yonah said...
Steve Wells,
Not only you are dwindling in unbelief, but if you die in your unbelief you will end up in a place call Hell. Your question is not genuine. It seems to me you just want to mock and ridicule the Bible which is the Word of God. The same Bible states:
Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him (Proverbs 26:4).
And I love this one from Jesus Christ whom you hate steve:
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you (Matthew 7:6).
Turn or burn, repent or perish. You will burn in Hell forever.
Wed Jun 22, 12:49:00 PM 2011
Janet said...
God knows the future before it happens. I dont agree with Jesse (sorry Jesse no slight intended here) telling people He dosent Love everyone. I believe that God knew ahead of time what Esau would choose to do! Esau had free will, and sold his birthright for a bowl of porrage. God knew ahwad of time what Essau would do! Simple.
Mon Jul 18, 06:45:00 AM 2011
Janet said...
God knows the future before it happens. I dont agree with Jesse (sorry Jesse no slight intended here) telling people He dosent Love everyone. I believe that God knew ahead of time what Esau would choose to do! Esau had free will, and sold his birthright for a bowl of porrage. God knew ahwad of time what Essau would do! Simple.
Mon Jul 18, 06:46:00 AM 2011
whit said...
@ william...do you follow pastor arnold murray?? if you do, that answers a lot about why you believe what you believe! :/
anyway, God knew who would follow him and who wouldnt....who He wanted to carry out His "plan". He knew the descendants of Esau would not follow Him and therefore He loved Jacob and his descendants. I don't believe God hates anyone but he "hated" the fact that Esau and his descendants would not follow Him and would be a down right sinful people. But like someone else mentioned, Paul says that no one can understand God's ways....Im planning on asking God when I get to heaven....until then, He's God and Im not arguing with Him!
Fri Oct 14, 08:37:00 PM 2011
LS said...
Oh what knowledge this young one has. He has been taught to believe what the bible says, and not what we think it should say. God is God, He made us, so why should we try to tell Him who He should love. His word tells me that He gave eternal life to as many as the Father gave Him.
Wed Dec 14, 05:53:00 AM 2011
megapraisegod said...
I believe since GOD is all knowing,that GOD already knew that Esau would reject him.
You must learn about Esau's nature.
GOD's Love is not like our, Jesus explains GOD's love as it being far greater then our's.
I have seen many men who were deeply in love with a woman hate a woman when the woman rejects that man.
Not saying that GOD is as weak as a a man to hate in a childish way, I think that because he so passionate
concerning us he hates the fact that we would rather reject and lose ourselves then to receive him and be blessed.
Some people who do not understand may say that they are in their right to choose,not so especially if we were made for him and him alone.
So if you make a child and that child rejects you and heads towards something that will lead to a nasty outcome you would hurt.
You would hate the act and not necessarily the individual.
Also we know that Esau sold his birth right for a bowl of soup something GOD already knew would happen.
So Esau's nature and behavior is what I believe GOD hates.
Mon Feb 13, 05:58:00 PM 2012
BlogOne said...
Dwindling? No need to. ☺
#1 What Does God Love and Hate:
Zec 8:16 These are the things that ye shall do: Speak ye every man the truth with his neighbour; execute the judgment of truth and peace in your gates;
Zec 8:17 and let none of you devise evil in your hearts against his neighbour; and love no false oath; for all these are things that I hate, saith the LORD.'
#2 Despising God's Blessing Started with Esau:
Gen 25:34 ...thus Esau despised his birthright.
#3 When Esau changed his mind and wanted the blessing, there is no indication that Esau tried to restore his own relationship with YHVH--but preferred to murder his brother instead!
Gen 27:41 And Esau hated Jacob because of the blessing where...his father blessed him: and Esau said in his heart, The days of mourning for my father are at hand; then will I slay my brother Jacob.
#4 Did Esau's nature continue within some of his decedents? Who are Esau’s decedents?
During YeShua's life, Esau’s descendants included King Herod the Great and his descendants. They had the children less than 2 years of age killed, John the Baptist beheaded and several members of their immediate family killed. They threw out G_d’s chosen priests and installed their own puppets.
#5 Also, it seems like Esau's decedents will be judged for what they will yet do as the end of the age progresses.
Oba 1:21 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount (high places) of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD'S. (Yet future.)
If Esau’s descendants ever try to murder you or any of your innocent loved ones, you may understand very clearly why it is recorded that G_d hated Esau.
For Free Help on How to Receive the Blessings that Jacob so Craved, See: www.4step.org
Sun Feb 19, 11:54:00 AM 2012
randy said...
as a christian we are to inherit the earth and eternal life! Esau gave his inheritance away for a bowl of pottage or( soup ) I don't think it's very wise to give your inheritance up for such a meaningless thing as a bowl of soup or anything else, for what will it profit a man to gain the whole world and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:26) now I am aware that not everyone believes in the Bible or God but you asked for an answer, and i'm just trying to answer your question, not to get into a debate with anyone so I'll just leave it at that!
Tue Mar 20, 07:46:00 PM 2012
mee said...
To Phils comment, yeah Jacob tricked his father and tried to convince Esau to trade his birthright for HIS eternal inheritance, doesnt seem a bit selfish? Dont see why God could hate Esau for being stupid but yet love Jacob despite being a selfish deceiver. Now if Jacob only wanted the birthright to serve God I guess that would be different but if it was only to gain something for himself, yeah, selfish..
Tue Apr 10, 12:56:00 PM 2012
Jason Lohner said...
I always find it amusing how so many 'christians' find a way to ignore exactly what the verse says. God HATED Esau... there are no ways around this. I have heard so many people try to deny this but the verse is very plain. God does HATE. Any other interpretation is quite frankly unbiblical. Most 'christians' don't accept this because their denomination has drilled in their own dogma for so long that they refuse to read the verse for what it actually (and very bluntly) states.
Mon Jun 04, 07:35:00 PM 2012
KishaLove said...
I have ready many comments and it seems that some people just havent grasped it quite yet. Lets put it in simple statements.
God and the choice...
its almost like parents and children.
You place a cookie and veggies in front of little bobby. You know whats going to happen. Yet you gave him the CHANCE to do the right thing.
God is ALL KNOWING. He knew that Esau would come to hate the Lord.
Just like many on earth today. You wonder why you should care if it sounds like destiny? Its because God has hope in his people. He has love for his children. Please understand he wants to give you the chance to love him and accept his love in return. He wants to give all his children the chance to live with him.
Mon Jun 04, 11:30:00 PM 2012
clarence said...
Clarence
I am sorry for any repetition,but was unable to read all.
God is light and in him is no darkness at all, and he will not tempt any person to sin.
He did not tempt Essau to sell his birth right as the first born.
To satisfiy his stomach or earthly passions he sold his birth right and could not get it back even by strong repentance.
I beleive God had a stong affinity to the blessings of the first born because it was pointing to Jesus was the first born resurected into heaven where we are to follow.
So I beleive what is meant by hate is that Essau, our example in the new covenant blessing is resurected life of the first born.
For those who chose to sell their birth right of the resurected life, for the appetites of the flesh, God has no choice but to hate.
And altimately not spending eternity in heaven, so for those who comment that the scriptures are folklore, you may want to dig a little deeper, because few will be that walk into the narrow gate.
Fri Jun 15, 10:00:00 AM 2012
Motherwarnedyou said...
Many of these comments mean well but the truth is God hated Esau! dont sugar coat it he rebelled against God. You really need to know the bible to divide it.
2TIMOTHY 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
People are being lead by false Christs to believe every wind of doctrine they say.
If this gospel is hid it is hid to them that are lost
Esau track record was bad openly Jacob was deceitful secretly.
a angel wrestled with Jacob and Jacob would not let go. Esau threw away what Jacob was fighting for.
Jacob was then names Israel and he had a Gimpy leg.
Mon Jul 02, 09:20:00 PM 2012
ThomasA said...
When Romans 9:11 says "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." You must keep in mind that the Bible is literature. The language of this passage does not speak to love and hate, rather to the lineage of Israel. Jacob was the one God chose to be Israel, not Esau. If you read the story, God blessed Esau as well, just not with being the ancestry of Jesus. Hope this helps.
Sat Sep 22, 04:06:00 AM 2012
mark papke said...
Here is a possible answer to the question at hand wich does make sense to me. It is up to you to decide whether it sounds feasible to you. I am not saying this is the offical answer because nobody but God knows that oficially but it does make sense.Here is the link should you choose to read it for yourself
http://www.toughquestionsanswered.org/2009/05/25/does-god-really-hate-esau/
And and here is the copy and pasted version.
Does God Really Hate Esau?
Many Christians are shocked when they read Romans 9:13: “Just as it is written: ‘Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.’” Since when does the God of love hate people? This verse, coupled with the rest of Romans 9, has led many to believe that God does not love all people, at least with regard to their eternal salvation. He seems to arbitrarily choose some people for salvation and some people for damnation. But must we interpret this verse in that way?
I think the answer is “no.” A more careful reading of this passage indicates that the subject is not individual salvation, but Israel’s national role in redemptive history.
Paul is actually quoting from Mal. 1:2-3, and a reading of those verses in the context of Malachi’s book clearly indicates that Malachi is using the word “Jacob” to refer to the nation of Israel and the word “Esau” to refer to the nation of Edom.
This makes perfect sense because Romans 9, 10, and 11 are all about national Israel and her role in redemptive history. Romans 9 refers to Israel’s past, Romans 10 refers to her present, and Romans 11 refers to her future.
It is a serious exegetical mistake to interpret Romans 9 to be referring to individuals’ salvation. According to Norman Geisler, “the election of the nation was temporal, not eternal; that is, Israel was chosen as a national channel through which the eternal blessing of salvation through Christ would come to all people (cf. Gen. 12:1–3; Rom. 9:4–5). Not every individual in Israel was elected to be saved (9:6).”
God works through nations to accomplish his will, just as he works through individuals. Just because Israel was the chosen nation to bring forth the Messiah did not mean that every Israelite would be individually saved. Individual salvation has never been and will never be based on a person’s nationality. Paul is talking about the nation of Israel in Romans 9, not individual salvation.
Finally, it is also important to explain that the word used for “hate” in Malachi 1 is a Hebrew idiom which actually means to “love less.” Norman Geisler explains: “This is evident from Genesis 29:30: The phrase ‘loved Rachel more than Leah’ is used as the equivalent of ‘Leah was hated’ (cf. also Matt. 10:37).”
God does not hate anyone, but he does bless some nations more than others.
Tue Jan 01, 11:30:00 AM 2013
Αλέξης said...
1)Curiously, we don't see God in the Old Testament hating Esau in practice as a person. Esau even speaks to Jacob as if he was well off, blessed. In general, the descriptions of Esua's life seem pretty good. This -to begin with- should make us think about how the word love & hate are used in Romans ch.9 and Mal.1.
2) I believe that they are used to denote favour, that is love means to favour, and hate means to not favour the same. E.g. discern this passage:
Gen 29:30-31 And he went in also unto Rachel, and he loved also Rachel more than Leah, and served with him yet seven other years.
31 And when the LORD saw that Leah was hated, he opened her womb: but Rachel was barren.
-So, in comparison we realize that the hated party here is the lesser loved.
3) In practice, this lesser favour towards Esau was, that **the people that came from him**(the Edomites) would not be favoured by God, but even opposed to make the point that the people that came from Jacob are the one's favoured by God. Notice, that the lack of favour (hate) towards Esau did not affect Esau himself directly, but his offspring. I found no other negative affect towards Esau himself.
4) God is portrayed all over the Bible as being just. This we should not forget. But doesn’t this mean that He had a just reason to favour Esau less and Jacob more (even way more)?? We should not jump to hasty conclusions especially about the God of the Bible Who over and over is described to be the personification of justice. If we accept that God sees the future, as if we exist there as well (won’t get into that…), He of course does things considering factors we cannot be aware of. This being the case Paul is saying: God is just, He knows what He is doing, and we are not in position to judge Him properly.
-And let’s not forget that Paul himself did not know everything about God; he says so himself: 1Co 13:9,12 / I say this because maybe even Paul’s words about Esau and Jacob may be just one side of the story and there could be another side he was not aware of, or not to the full extent.
5) Even when God favours a group of people less then another group of people, He will do it in wisdom and with care/control. We must be carefull and ask to learn more about Him and His ways.
Thu Feb 21, 03:11:00 PM 2013
Todd Proctor said...
As I read all of Romans 9, it is clear to me that God does according to the counsel of His own will. When Paul states that there is no injustice in God, I believe this to be a rhetorical statement. God is just, indeed. But He is the one who defines justice, He defines good and He defines evil. He does what He wills and there is no turning in Him. I am extremely humbled by these passages. If God chooses to hate, to love, to bless, to curse, in order to make His power known... so be it. I am his obedient slave. If God sees fit to include me among His elect, it is by grace I am saved. If God chooses not to include me among His elect then God's justice will have been served. The incredible struggle between the Sovereignty of God and the free will of man will never be understood until He brings all things to understanding. While I have assurance of salvation there can be no certainty of it. But until that day, I will walk in obedience to His word and strive to do His will all the days of my life. I believe I echo the statements of 13 year old Jesse above.
Tue Feb 26, 10:15:00 AM 2013
Grace said...
I found a good biblical answer for the question if God loves everybody.
Here it is.
Question: "Does God love everyone or just Christians?"
Answer: There is a sense in which God loves everyone in the whole world (John 3:16; 1 John 2:2; Romans 5:8). This love in not conditional—it is based only on the fact that God is a God of love (1 John 4:8, 16). God’s love for all of mankind results in the fact that God shows His mercy by not immediately punishing people for their sins (Romans 3:23; 6:23). God’s love for the world is manifested in the fact that He gives people the opportunity to repent (2 Peter 3:9). However, God’s love for the world does not mean He will ignore sin. God is also a God of justice (2 Thessalonians 1:6). Sin cannot go unpunished forever (Romans 3:25-26).
The most loving act of eternity is described in Romans 5:8, “But God demonstrates His own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” Anyone who ignores God’s love, who rejects Christ as Savior, who denies the Savior who bought him (2 Peter 2:1) will be subject to God’s wrath for eternity (Romans 1:18), not His love (Romans 6:23). God loves everyone unconditionally in that He shows mercy to everyone by not destroying them immediately because of sin. At the same time, God only has “covenant love” for those who place their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation (John 3:36). Only those who believe in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior will experience God’s love for eternity.
Does God love everyone? Yes. Does God love Christians more than He loves non-Christians? No. Does God love Christians to a different extent than He loves non-Christians? Yes. God loves everyone equally in that He is merciful to all. God only loves Christians in that only Christians have His eternal grace and mercy and the promise of His forever love in heaven. The unconditional love God has for everyone should bring us to faith in Him, receiving in thankfulness the great conditional love He grants all those who receive Jesus Christ as Savior.
Recommended Resources: Logos Bible Software and The Difficult Doctrine of the Love of God by D.A. Carson.
This page is also available in: Español, Arabic, Indonesia, Russian, Português, Nederlands, Simp-Chinese, Română, Japanese, Italiano, Trad-Chinese, Français, Sinhala, Polski, Bulgarian, Magyar, Srpski, Slovenčina, Hrvatski, Deutsch, Greek, Cesky, Türkçe, Afrikaans, Ukrainian, Bosanski, Melayu, Latviešu
While he is not the author of every article on GotQuestions.org, for citation purposes, you may reference our CEO, S. Michael Houdmann.
Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/does-God-love-everyone.html#ixzz2Ubp7JMik
Tue May 28, 10:18:00 AM 2013
Cindyfree said...
As a Christian whose sons have rejected Christianity and who have questioned the validity of the Bible, whenever I run across a difficult passage such as this, I become obsessed with finding an answer. In my search, I ran across a sermon by Charles H. Spurgeon that really answered this better than any of the answers given here. It's rather lengthy, but must be read in its entirety in order to fully understand. If you read just part of it, you will go away confused and discouraged, so read the whole thing.
www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0239.htm
Fri Feb 28, 10:46:00 AM 2014
ty smelley said...
He hated Esau because Esau was evil and God's elect are not evil. The evil are of their father the devil. The elect are of their Father, God.
Tue Mar 11, 09:20:00 PM 2014
Jamie H said...
In the context of this holy Word one must compare scripture to scripture before jumping to conclusions.
First off, God is a God of love not Hate. He wants ALL sinnners to come to Him, so He can forgive them and mold and shape them into His likeness.
However, we all have free will, so please invite and let Jesus Our Lord and Savior, to come into your heart and soul before it is too late.
Now on to the topic at hand of God (Supposedly)hating Eassu.
From alot of responses I have read on here so far Your definitions of love and hate aren't quite correct.The language of the times in the Old Testament was Hebrew.
So Knowing that you must check on what the Hebrew meaning is especially in a difficult English translation such as this.
So, The Hebrew definition for hate (שנא - sane) is: to 'turn away from another'. It is the opposite of grace (חן - chane) which is: 'beauty' implying to look upon or to show favor. The problem comes in when use the English definition of these words to understand the Word of God. That is unfortunately the English translation and why we must study, especially when it comes to difficult passages such as this.
So a better translation would be God "turned away from" Essau because He knew that Essau would sell His BirthRight for a meal.
The BirthRight is very very important to the Hebrew for God chose to come through the Jewish people, and to sell your birthRight was like saying I don't believe in God and breaks the perfect lineage.
And the lineage that Jesus Christ was and did come through was unbroken and perfect in God's eyes.
So God "turned away from" Essau, knowing what he was going to do.
God does Not hate. He is a Holy, Righteous and Loving God, who wants to have a daily personal relationship with you because He loves you so much He came and died for your personal sins....Imagine that?? A Perfect Holy God so loving, that He sent His Only begotten Son here Jesus Christ to die in your place for the sins you committed.
Sure sounds like a perfect Loving God to me. Come to Him and confess your sins, and He is Faithful and Just to forgive you.
So use your free will gift from God wisely and Don't keep "turning away from"....Him.
Fri Mar 14, 01:40:00 PM 2014
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
16 June 2006Whom does God hate?
I’ve often heard that God loves everyone. He hates the sin, but loves the sinner. And that might be true about some gods. But the God of the Bible hates people, right along with the sin (and figs, rags, shrimp, cephalopods, and Christmas trees).
Consider these verses:
I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more ... yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb. -- Hosea 9:15-16
And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them. -- Leviticus 20:23
I will ... cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you. -- Leviticus 26:30
And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them ... for they are ... children in whom is no faith. -- Deuteronomy 32:19-20
The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. -- Psalm 5:5
The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. -- Psalm 11:5
These six things doth the LORD hate ... A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. -- Proverbs 6:16, 19
I hated Esau. -- Malachi 1:3, Romans 9:13
So the Bible-God hates some people (foreign nations, workers of iniquity, wicked people, and liars, to name a few). But there is only one person (that I know of) that God hates by name. What is the name of this God-hated person?
Posted by Steve Wells at 6/16/2006 09:57:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
16 comments:
Jason Leonard said...
I’ve often heard that God loves everyone. He hates the sin, but loves the sinner. And that might be true about some gods.
And yet every passage you mentioned refers to people who would have been tremendous sinners in God's eyes. The pagan nations who cut themselves and sacrificed children...people that LOVE violence..."workers of iniquity" (remember Psalms are written by people speculating about God, not necessarily quoting absolutes). Oh, and people who lie and "soweth discord" (or try to separate people and tear people down).
So none of those things are sins or unlawful deeds?
And abhorration is not quite the same as hatred.
Actually, the truth is, as a Christian myself (but an apologist), the "all-loving" God who hates sin but loves the sinner...is not 100% accurate. It's common teaching to make Christianity be more appealing. And there is more than enough evidence in the Bible of this as reality. But it is erroneous to assume those are the only qualities God has. He is, after all, judge (elohim). His role is one of fairness.
Wow, 4 verses, you really tried hard.
Mon Jun 19, 07:53:00 PM 2006
Steve Wells said...
"Wow, 4 verses, you really tried hard."
Do you know of others, Jason? [Besides the God-hates-Esau verses (Malachi 1:3 and Romans 9:13)]
Mon Jun 19, 08:01:00 PM 2006
Jana Swartwood said...
If you look at the context of the Malachi passage (particularly verses 4-5), you will see that God is not talking about Esau the man, but rather, Edom, his descendants. Though as a people they were a "brother" to Israel, they chose time and time again to serve other gods and not follow the one true God. Therefore, since their practices were destestable to God (the word for hate can also mean "detest"), He removed His favor from them.
The ancient Hebrew mindset saw forefather and people as one, which is why you often see Jacob mentioned in place of Israel, Esau mentioned in place of Edom, etc. It gave people a context of remembrance.
Also, in the Romans passage you mention above, I think you're missing something if you don't pay strict attention to context. Paul is quoting the saying about Jacob and Esau not because he is trying to make a point about God hating someone, but rather, because he is trying to make a point about God loving someone.
The whole point of Paul's dialogue in Romans 9 is to say that it's ok for Gentiles to be part of the church, that is, the line of God. Where once God's favor was only extended to the line of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (for Esau renounced his birthright), through Christ God opened the promise of His mercy to all others who would have Him. Even the descendants of Jacob screwed up miserably, Paul says, so they're no better than Esau (Edom) in the eyes of God.
The whole point is that in the Old Testament times, God granted His mercy only to the children of Israel, whereas through Christ, the opportunity was made available for all people (of any nation) to take part in His mercy.
Sat Jun 24, 11:06:00 PM 2006
Robert said...
This is to the last poster about Romans 9 and the "Jacob I loved, Esau I hated" and that this passage is about extending salvation to Gentiles.
The whole of Romans 9:1 21 is the argument that God saves whom he chooses and that we, as the creation have nothing to say about how fair or unfair it is.
The "Jacob/Esau" verse kicks it off...saying that He dealt differently with Jacob and Esau according to His plan, not something they'd done at all. His choice, His plan, etc.
He says he hardened Pharoah's heart to show His mercy. For His purpose.
anyway...just to clarify....
PS: do a web search...there are plenty more verses about how God hates sinners.
'
bob
Thu Jul 05, 11:39:00 AM 2007
FaceValue said...
I think you should listen to yourself speak the words you write... God hates, God abhors, God casts carcasses...this is simply disgusting. A God that murders people for lashing out is not a Father at all, do you murder your children when your parenting just isnt enough? I should hope not. The fact is the Bible begins the commandments with have no other god, for I am a jealous God. So God is a hater, jealous, and a murderer. You can keep that version. Why is the Bible the only book you will allow to offer any insight. You scoff at the Quran or New Age Testaments, yet they were written the same way the Bible was, by oral tradition and by hand. You believe God inspired them yet why would he not inspire others? The New Testament was written in Egyptian Coptic so why would you insist it was divinely written in the same land God sent plagues to destroy. Be real, God is the Creator of the Universe which is incapable of hate and anger. Hell was never even mentioned until the Middle Ages when a one-time drunk, sexually offensive man reformed through his seeming insanity and wrote things about hell to the pope, so pleasing because it really unifies an empire through fear.
Wed Jan 16, 02:31:00 PM 2008
Olet said...
FaceValue, I'm concerned with your view. The Bible is a complete work. Nothing should be added to it/removed from it. To say that God is incapable of anger/hate, is absolutely wrong. God is just in His anger & because He's so Holy, God hates the workers of iniquity.
I'm sure that these questions have popped in everyone's thoughts at some point or another: "Does God love everyone?" or "Does God hate anyone?"
Folks may look at John 3:16, which is a very familiar verse; "For God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life." and cause them to say "SEE, GOD LOVES EVERYONE."
& I believe this to be true. After all, He's provided a means of mercy through His Son in hopes that ALL men should repent. He desires that NONE should perish. Even in Ezekiel , God states, "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live.”
There are so many times displayed in Scripture that God urges the wicked, non-repentant, non-submissive people to repent. God's mercy to ALL men is not in vain.
However, this isn't to pass God off as a softie. God does hate the workers of iniquity. Because He is a Holy and He is a just God. Hate will be expresssed toward those in a condition of opposition to God---that is to say, those who choose to remain defiant, ultimately rejecting the mercy and grace that was shown through His Son Jesus Christ.
Sun Feb 10, 01:03:00 PM 2008
BlobbDobb said...
Believer: "He desires that NONE should perish."
Skeptic: And yet if God is omnipotent then he could have anything he desires.
Believer: Ah but he gave people free will and he can't stop everyone from perishing because he also wants them to have the choice to perish.
Skeptic: So you're saying that God can't both; stop all man from perishing and give all man the choice, but if God is omnipotent surely it is wrong to say God, "can't do" anything?
Believer: But stopping all men from perishing and giving all men the choice to perish isn't logically possible.
Skeptic: Ironic you should bring up the issue of logical possibilities (three words come to mind, Pot Kettle and Black) ...
But isn't the whole idea of an omnipotent God the point that he isn't confined by human limits of logic of possibility?
Sat Aug 16, 11:56:00 AM 2008
Adam said...
God cannot do both because it's against his nature. God stated from the beginning that if Mankind chose to disobey, there would be consequences. Backing out of that statement and saving all of mankind would make him a liar.
Mon Sep 15, 05:45:00 PM 2008
WalkwithGod said...
But Romans 5:8 says God LOVES sinners. "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." See? While we were sinners He was planning to save us. Remember, sin is punishable by death. God doesn't send people to Hell, they send themselves there by choosing to reject God. If you willfully walk away from Him when He has told you He is the source of all goodness and pleasure, where do you end up? You have walked in the opposite direction and reached the end of that road with no way back! So did God send you or did you go yourself? Remember, He keeps warning us? Why would a God who hates sinners allow them to live long enough to blaspheme Him and disobey Him? Why would He warn them? Heb 12:6 - "For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth." Why would He risk it all to become one of us, allow Himself to be ridiculed, beaten, spat upon, slapped, stabbed in the side and killed on a cross? Because He hates us? Really? God has never hated anyone. Mat 9:13 - "But go ye and learn what that meaneth, 'I will have mercy, and not sacrifice': for I am not come to call the righteous, but SINNERS to repentance."
Sat Feb 26, 11:00:00 PM 2011
senuff said...
You ask the hard questions. Questions that do have answers. The Bible is the best book going. You can understand God's will by it. You do more to encourage people to study deeper into the Bible then most ministers i know. You're a great advocate for the Bible, and you don't even know it.
Who does God Love. He loves His children. His children were once sinners. He Knew Esau and Jacob's hearts, that's how he could say He loved one and hated the other. He's going to send some people straight to hell, it looks like you might be one of them unless you repent and follow after Jesus.
Mon Oct 24, 11:51:00 AM 2011
Bill Cribbs said...
The reason people misinterpret John 3:16 is because of the word "so". "For God SO loved the world...". This word SO is not an adjective describing how much God loves. SO means "in this manner" or "after this fashion" in the Greek. Look up at verse 14 where the SAME word SO is used and you will see that it means "after this fashion". God loved the world IN THIS MANNER, that He gave His only begotten Son... Jesus on the cross IS God's expression of love to a world that He hated. We were at enmity with God. His holiness was repulsed by our unholiness. When the user above used Romans 5, "God commended His love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, CHRIST DIED FOR US." "Commended" means "exhibited" or "displayed". "Toward" is a directional term. He exhibited His love in our direction because we didn't already have it. It wasn't affectionate love. It was an offering of love to us. Now, the ball is in our court. Will we accept His offering of love...or reject it?
Tue Nov 01, 12:00:00 PM 2011
princessofpraise said...
get over it people God do hate some why else would he seen some to hell..most of the time when he say my people he talking about people his chosen ones his children, would u seen someone you love to hell ..pain forever? that should be enough to know he dont love all
Thu Mar 22, 09:57:00 PM 2012
SkiFiend said...
To be fair God is a perfectionist.
Have you ever tried to do anything for a perfectionist. You'll never get it right.
However, this is where people don't understand the bible. There is the New Testament. This is an antidote to the problems of the Old Testament and God admits that the plan didn't work out, which is why he had to send Jesus. In fact it is prophesied many times in the Old Testament about Jesus having to come.
The Bible does use the word hate, but then when you talk to a perfectionist, they will tell you they hate anything that isn't right. God is the same. He cannot look on anything that is not right (use the word Righteous/Holy but not many people understand the meaning of those words).
If we were to stand in God's presence with any wrong we would die immediately, because it can't stand the presence of God. Moses is the closest person to have seen part of the presence of God but never his face. People couldn't look at Moses face after that incident so they made him wear a veil.
However this is where Jesus becomes like the mediator between God and man or substitute (although not everyone understands that use as much). Jesus knows what it is like to be human but reaches perfection that no one else can.
But he dies so that all our wrong doing is cancelled out by his death if we do in fact acknowledge that his death did in fact give us that right to be right with God (perfect again).
Don't worry if this doesn't make sense. It it simple stuff but not always easy to unravel.
Mon Jun 18, 08:52:00 AM 2012
John "Daddy" Leece said...
Jason, I will admit there are some passages in the Bible that I don't understand, some that do talk about God hating...but I know God to be a God of love. The Bible even says that God IS Love.
God loves you Jason...just as much as he loves me. I'm a Christian. I love you Jason...obviously not personally, but because you are one for whom Christ died and my Lord calls me to love you. You're no different than me. We both are totally lost and dependent apart from God's mercy. Below are a couple of passages of scripture. I know I can win a debate with you, not going to try.
I just ask that you read the passages below and maybe we can have a conversation?
Thanks...have a good day.
Romans 5 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only so, but we also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.
6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Jesus said this in Matthew 5:
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Since we can't be perfect, we're left to rely on God and God's mercy. Praying for you as I pray for myself that our hearts would be open to the truth.
Fri Aug 17, 01:59:00 AM 2012
Hound Dog said...
God is a hypocritical sadist who can't even live up to his own standards. For starters, he creates people without free will. We aren't given a choice to be created or not beforehand, so the so-called free will he gives us after he creates us is moot. Then as if that wasn't bad enough, he subjects us to sadistic tests of our so-called free will, purely for his own pleasure of tormenting us just because he can. He knows ahead of time how we'll react, and yet he expects us to react differently. This is the definition of insanity, repeating the same mistakes while expecting different results. God hates most of us, and loves to rub our noses in it, and the fact that there's nothing we can do about it. Our fates to be loved or hated by him are chosen by him before he creates us, so it's pointless to worry about what will or won't please him, he's already decided that for us the same way he creates us without a free will. He tormented Jesus the same way, so if he'll do that to his own son, he'll do it to anyone. He's a hateful god, and a loving god, he's unjust and unmerciful, and he's certainly not repentant. He admits to the sin of jealously, yet he makes no apologies for it. Sending Jesus to die for our sins was just another example of his bloodlust for torture, just for kicks. Yet another sin he committed against us, while he expects us to not commit the exact same sin. A feat we can never accomplish, because he created us in his image, so it's just another example of his hatred. Jesus is the only one who loves us, for he knows our suffering at the hands of God as well as he knows his own. His life was predestined the same as ours is, and he was as powerless against it as we are. Therefore, there's nothing to worship or turn away from, we exist solely to be either loved or hated by God, and the fact that which is our fate is chosen by him alone is proof that he isn't a just god at all. You can't have it both ways and excuse God's own sins against us by saying we deserve to be punished for them, when he's the one who created us in his sinful image before we were given a free will. We'd have to be given a free will before we were created to be justly held responsible for our own choices, so whether we're saved or not is entirely up to him. We can appeal to Jesus to ask God to save us on our behalf, but if Jesus or God decide not to do it, we have as little control over that as we do over being born or what our fates will or won't be afterwards. If I'm wrong about any of this, then God forgive me in the name of Jesus, because there isn't another excuse for it. His hands move me as they move you, for we are all merely pawns in his game of chance.
Sat Aug 18, 02:32:00 PM 2012
Mike Birkhead said...
I think I quote Paul Washer when I say, "if I rightly understand the Love of God, it is so amazing that he even, often times, loves the objects of his own hate."
So, yes, it's true God loves everyone, but it's equally true that he hates those who do iniquity.
So, how amazing is this love of God!
Fri Dec 14, 08:01:00 PM 2012
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
16 June 2006Is anything cruel to a believer?
I am often struck by how difficult it is for a believer to identify cruelty. Take this verse from the Quran, for example.
The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom. -- Quran 5:33
Is it cruel? Read the verse in its context. Take your time. Think about it. Talk to your friends and fellow believers, and then let me know.
(I’m especially interested in what the Christians think about it. But Muslims can chime in as well.)
Posted by Steve Wells at 6/16/2006 05:54:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
21 comments:
Mark said...
Steve,
As my recorded comments clearly show, I already had my say that I thought the text is a cruel act. However, in answer to that you comment "how difficult it is for a believer to identify cruelty." ??
Hey have it your way, it is your blog, but that's misleading.
Maybe you aren't satisfied yet b/c I told you that I have no opinion on whether the whole of the Quran is condoning cruelty for it's beleivers today, and of that I can't answer since I have never read the Quran, and hardly have the time to do so in the near future.
Anyways, I was optimistic for some decent open dialogue but I think it is obvious you're not going in that direction.
Take care,
Sat Jun 17, 11:06:00 AM 2006
Steve Wells said...
So you think Quran 5:33 is cruel. Is it reasonable to mark it that way in the SAQ?
What about Numbers 31:14-18? Do you think that is cruel as well?
Sat Jun 17, 11:22:00 AM 2006
Dennis said...
here's me chiming :)
Okay.. the author's asked for people to take time to think about it?
Is it really that difficult to understand?
God is the creator, the sustainer. In Islamis tradition there are approximatly 100 attributes that let Mankind understand who He is. I suggest having a quick Google for it.. forget all the propaganda from orientalist sites.. well if you want to go ahead.. but get a good mixture of views.. Now you've kinda understood who God is.. If you don't, He's the the One that commands every single sub-atomic particle.. etc etc..
okay back to my point.. Now the revealed verse speaks of:
"those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land"
so now the creation wants to wage war on the Creator, sustainer (and all the other attributes assigned to him), and His favourite Creation, the final Prophet to mankind..
don't you think, that He would wan't to express his appreciatiation?
Lets be sensible now..
Peace
Mon Jun 19, 10:27:00 AM 2006
Jason Leonard said...
It's pretty obvious to me where the violence is in this passage.
Someone has declared to make war on God and His "messenger". The creator of all life and his greatest creation. So God's just supposed to sit there and say "HI"?
No, he's passing judgement on people who would dare be so bold, and reminding them that they might not like where they end up in the afterlife. Language like that is typically understood to be symbolic and not literal anyway.
In context it's clearly more of a reference to judgement than an actual violent act against someone.
But Dennis basically had the right idea.
Anyway, it still wouldn't matter much to me, I don't believe in the Qran's authentic inspiration anyway...
Mon Jun 19, 07:35:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Of course it's cruel. There's no real way you can justify it, and the same applies to the Bible and Book of Mormon.
The Abramic religions are all pretty deeply steeped in cruelty, xenophobia, fear and violence. Believers try and justify it, but let's be honest... what if a politician said those same words? Would we still try and cover for him? Of course not.
A typical apologist tactic is to use the age-old "context" excuse. Any verse which is agreeable is to be taken at face value, but any verse that is objectionable is "out of context" or "requires closer examination" or "must be taken figuratively" or some other such nonsense.
It takes integrity to admit errors and wrongs, but most believers don't have that. They just make excuses.
Sun Jul 16, 10:45:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Simple shrieking bigots are almost less disturbing than reasonable-sounding people using politics-speak to snow over calls to genocide and rape with endless, empty claims of "out of context" and "poor translation": if your neighbour scrawled "kill everybody from New Jersey and take the virgin girls for yourselves" on his wall, you wouldn't deny the clear interpretation in favour of his personal context or subtleties of phrasing.
And hypothetically, if a bronze age tribe *did* throw together fantasies about invisible superheroes as excuses for reprehensible, self-serving behaviour: and the inherited gravitas thereof was then defended with selective interpretation, usually by people with a pregiven emotional attachment to it ... how would the result look any different?
And, incidentally, why record what time of day posts are made, without the date?
Tue Sep 26, 11:28:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
Analogies help:
If I say Zoltan rules the universe and will horribly kill/torture his enemies, what does it mean to defend this statement (i.e., dennis/jason and the like minded) by pointing out that he's said to be a very impressive/powerful/good being?
And saying a certain bit of religious language is "typically understood" to be symbolic is exactly the problem: unless the text was originally written in two colours or something, you're making excuses for it by picking and choosing which parts to take seriously.
Religion is like tribal glue made of b.s., or "skin colour for behaviour patterns": it's a way to keep people in genetic clumps defined by rituals and costumes: and since it's older and more primitive than rationality, it's developed a thick skin of half-baked excuses and prohibitions against thinking about it.
Tue Sep 26, 11:50:00 AM 2006
Steve said...
OF course it's cruel.
And it's VERY hard for a believer to understand cruelty. I can show a believer direct Bible passages of violence from the New Testament and they'll just turn it around to meet their goals.
Hell, even Jesus said "I did not come to bring peace to the Earth, but the sword."
Sun Dec 24, 10:53:00 AM 2006
It doesnt said...
You are Brilliant.
I'm a non-believer, and i've found I know far more about the bible and other religous books than most, if not all of my religous friends.
Thanks for Providing a wonderful website.
Tue Jan 02, 04:20:00 PM 2007
Po8 said...
I think the cruelty is quite obvious in this passage.
The more hideous issue of this quote is, that it certifies the right to go for people having another point of view and legalise this behaviour.
There is no evidence that any god did ever persecute an infidel to death, but there are thousands of proofs that the fanatics of his church did instead. This verse provides the charter to it
btw, great work, Steve, much appreciated :-)
Tue Jan 09, 06:00:00 AM 2007
Brucker said...
Food for thought. It fits in well with a post I'm finishing up right now.
Getting to the point, I'd have to vote cruel. While I expect statements like "...in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom." from most religious literature, it's precisely this sort of thing that makes punishing unbelievers in the here and now make no sense to me. If they're destined to suffer greatly in the Hereafter, then why add to that suffering in the present?
Tue Jun 05, 01:43:00 PM 2007
Brucker said...
Regarding your comment on Numbers 31, I think that passage may highlight some of the subtleties that are difficult in sorting out cruelty, violence and injustice as separate but closely-related issues.
While I may not decide to take that position on that passage when I cover it in my blog, I am going to assume at this point without delving deeply into it that killing the women was just. They've done something that deserves punishment, supposedly.
Is killing them cruel and/or violent? Depends on the definition of those words. Some people think of all killing as violent, and if you take that position, then this is a violent act. If you don't take that position, then you have to decide what would make an act violent and judge accordingly. The amount of blood shed? The amount of pain inflicted? Something else about the circumstances in which the women are killed? We aren't given any of these details here; I'm not sure if we ever get them.
But the question is the matter of cruelty. You have to ask yourself again what you will call cruelty. Is it determined by the amount of physical pain? Is killing cruel in itself or, if done quickly and painlessly, is it not cruel? Note that the women who were not killed were forced to marry; perhaps to some that would be a fate worse than death, so which is more cruel?
I think the problem with comaparing Numbers 31:15 with Quran 5:33 is that the latter is so specific and exacting. I don't think killing per se is cruel or violent, but I admit it often is. What happened in Numbers 31 certinaly was not pleasant for the women involved, but to go so far as saying it was cruel is speculation.
Now, I don't think one needs much speculation to see that the immediately preceeding war against these women's husbands, fathers and sons was violent, and they had to live through that, didn't they? And whether or not that was cruel, it surely felt like it.
Tue Jun 05, 02:19:00 PM 2007
Alexis said...
The fact that famous books like the Bible and the Quran portrait God as cruel, doesn't mean He is really cruel. People take those books too seriously; because they were violently imposed for centuries. If you really want to know God, just pray. Just ask Him who He is, what He (or She) is, etc. And be patient and have hopes; wait for a sign or a dream. Just in case, don't use names like Yaweh, Zeus or Jesus... God would act cruelly, because you'll expect Him to act like Yaweh. Just use the word "God" and be open-minded. Good revelations...
Fri Mar 14, 04:01:00 PM 2008
Azrael Drow said...
God is welcome to post himself last time I checked. It would lead to more productive discussions. By books do you mean the afore mentioned religious texts?
Thu May 15, 02:52:00 PM 2008
Hamza said...
Going back to the whole "Zoltan" analogy, it wouldn't really be fair to say that Zoltan in the ruler of the universe. Imagine if Zoltan had created the entire universe, the human race and provided them with everything they needed to live with? A day comes along where Zoltan looks down on the universe and sees humans divided amongst themselves, killing, fighting, and spreading injustice. Instead of just destroying the human race, Zoltan sends down messages to the humans on how to live peacefully and to show respect towards him so that they are all united and peaceful. The next day Zoltan looks down and sees that some humans are trying to hurt, stone, and taunt the humans who have followed Zoltan's advice. How would you feel if you were Zoltan?
How would you feel if your child was playing outside while you were sitting on your porch, only to see a complete stranger walking by with a candy. Imagine how hurt you would be if the child walked away from you, and followed the man so that he could have a candy, all the while knowing that he shouldn't be doing that.
You can cause your child to be born, but you create him/her out of thin air. Zoltan created us, as a human race, and I think it's fair to say that the hurt we cause to Zoltan by mocking him and not beliving his message deserves retribution. In court if someone commits a crime, they are punished. That is our modern day justice system, and we call it fair.
How can we turn around and say that justice does not apply to all situations?
Fri Aug 15, 03:21:00 PM 2008
Hamza said...
Sorry, typo there. The line in question is supposed to mean you CAN'T create a child from nothing.
Fri Aug 15, 03:27:00 PM 2008
Gabriel said...
The last (well, next to last) comment shows exactly the problem with this sort of debate. The non-believer is supposed to adopt the premises that the believer wishes. What we KNOW is that people wrote both of these texts. Those who believe in each one say that they're divinely inspired, but since any ONE of these monotheist texts being divinely inspired pretty much negates all the others, that seems like a pretty tough call to make. If you wanna stick with the Zoltan example, fine.
What you and I don't have is any evidence of Zoltan, given that the hypothetical authors of Zoltanism existed thousands of years ago. And even when it was new, no one saw Zoltan descend from the skies and offer these books. Instead they saw a bunch of scraggly hermits saying that Zoltan had talked to them and we should maim or horribly kill anyone who has a problem with their loving god.
But this brings us full circle. To the believer, the context isn't in what humans do to each other. I could crush someone's newborn baby with a tank and it wouldn't be cruel - if that person had the gall to hurt the feelings of a character from a 2,000 year old book first. The context is, as Hamza pointed out, in the very idea that there IS at least one big, invisible being that we owe obeisance to and that by coming to conclusions on our own, we're disappointing them and deserve to be punished.
It's difficult, if not impossible, to get a person who believes in a religious text's truth to debate whether or not EVERY SINGLE LINE is justified without first being willing to acknowledge that their god is actually real. Otherwise you'll never find common ground for a conversation.
"It was written by humans."
"But given to them by god."
"But it was written by humans then saying, 'God exists'. That's the only reference we have to their god - in this one book. You're trying to justify horrible murders based off of the writings of one small group of people who made their livings off of teaching about this."
"The Bible (or whatever) exists because God handed this information to his prophets. And we know God exists because the Bible (again, or whatever) tells us so."
You can't get them to abandon that, because that's their ultimate get-out-of-jail-free card. "It can't be immoral if the creator of the universe justifies it, but if it's just a bunch of people saying it, then of course it's immoral - therefore I can't let the divine origins of the text leave the conversation, that becomes a part of the context."
Sat Aug 08, 04:11:00 PM 2009
Bugalugs said...
@ Hamza: “Imagine if Zoltan had created the entire universe, the human race and provided them with everything they needed to live with?”
Bugalugs: Well, first I would ask “who created you Zoltan? What gives you the right to tell me what is good and what’s not? What’s to say you aren’t lying to me? As a parent I created my children and provide them everything they need (and more) and I don’t demand subservience, kneeling, praying and the prostration by them in my presence? If you are a loving creator why are you so jealous and mean?”
@ Hamza: ”… Zoltan looks down on the universe…. Instead of just destroying the human race, Zoltan sends down messages to the humans on how to live peacefully…”
Bugalugs: Well, you could have done that for Adam?!?! Nope, instead we get eternal suffering because of the actions of our ancestor.
And you are an absent parent, of course if you leave kids alone for a long time they will go at each other – I mean you are omnipotent and DIDN’T read the Lord of the Flies?!?!
“Instead of destroying everyone” – hello, didn’t you do the flood?!?!”
And the “instructions” you gave to desert dwelling bronze age idiots when you could have (a) given it to all people WW for consistency, (b) had the different instructions agree on something (REALLY not one for consistency), (c) actually provide a comprehensive document of morals and real world explanations rather than just tell us how to carve up cattle, rape, murder, commit genocide, infanticide, incest, slavery… and you wonder what happened??!?!? You REALLY are an idiot Zoltan!
@Hamza: “…Zoltan looks down and sees that some humans are trying to hurt… the humans who have followed Zoltan's advice. How would you feel if you were Zoltan?...”
Bugalugs: So this omnipotent being who is so kind and full of love is a social retard and bad parent? Why WOULD you follow this nut job if he existed?!?
@ Hamza: “You can cause your child to be born, but you create him/her out of thin air. Zoltan created us, as a human race, and I think it's fair to say that the hurt we cause to Zoltan by mocking him and not believing his message deserves retribution. In court if someone commits a crime, they are punished. That is our modern day justice system, and we call it fair.
How can we turn around and say that justice does not apply to all situations?”
Bugalugs: Yes you do – I mate with my wife (in my case I’m married) and voila! Le Baby! Where did that come from?!?! I could tell you in detail and no religious book can – because they didn’t know how it happened back then (although presumably an omnipotent being did so either Zoltan is hiding it from us or there is no Zoltan)
Justice is about the punishment that fits the crime – burning in eternal hell not because you HAVE a slave, but because he/she doesn’t get up after three days after a good beating (within 3 days and you’re all clear) is not justice. Burning in eternal hell forever because you THINK to yourself that your neighbours ox looks damn good and you wish you had it is not justice.
And we hope it applies in all situations, but of course it doesn’t in many situations…
@ Hamza – you don’t have an argument. You fall into the trap everyone who has written this or believes does which is you create this imaginary figure and try to define it in vague and unintellectual terms which just bares out the lack of knowledge on this topic. I’m not saying you aren’t intelligent, just not clued into how logic works.
Otherwise you could say something equally useless like “well, God is beyond us and we can’t know Him so I’m just talking to you in general terms, but God is actually eternally good and full of love”. Well then, how do you know all this? If God is beyond our understanding then we don’t understand Him and can’t make assumptions as to whether He is good or not, especially when He has asked for the murder of an entire community save the prepubescent virgin girls (today we would call it comfort women for paedophiles) – great Zoltan? I think not!
Mon Jan 17, 06:20:00 AM 2011
Bugalugs said...
@ Hamza: “Imagine if Zoltan had created the entire universe, the human race and provided them with everything they needed to live with?”
Bugalugs: Well, first I would ask “who created you Zoltan? What gives you the right to tell me what is good and what’s not? What’s to say you aren’t lying to me? As a parent I created my children and provide them everything they need (and more) and I don’t demand subservience, kneeling, praying and the prostration by them in my presence? If you are a loving creator why are you so jealous and mean?”
@ Hamza: ”… Zoltan looks down on the universe…. Instead of just destroying the human race, Zoltan sends down messages to the humans on how to live peacefully…”
Bugalugs: Well, you could have done that for Adam?!?! Nope, instead we get eternal suffering because of the actions of our ancestor.
And you are an absent parent, of course if you leave kids alone for a long time they will go at each other – I mean you are omnipotent and DIDN’T read the Lord of the Flies?!?!
“Instead of destroying everyone” – hello, didn’t you do the flood?!?!”
And the “instructions” you gave to desert dwelling bronze age idiots when you could have (a) given it to all people WW for consistency, (b) had the different instructions agree on something (REALLY not one for consistency), (c) actually provide a comprehensive document of morals and real world explanations rather than just tell us how to carve up cattle, rape, murder, commit genocide, infanticide, incest, slavery… and you wonder what happened??!?!? You REALLY are an idiot Zoltan!
@Hamza: “…Zoltan looks down and sees that some humans are trying to hurt… the humans who have followed Zoltan's advice. How would you feel if you were Zoltan?...”
Bugalugs: So this omnipotent being who is so kind and full of love is a social retard and bad parent? Why WOULD you follow this nut job if he existed?!?
@ Hamza: “You can cause your child to be born, but you create him/her out of thin air. Zoltan created us, as a human race, and I think it's fair to say that the hurt we cause to Zoltan by mocking him and not believing his message deserves retribution. In court if someone commits a crime, they are punished. That is our modern day justice system, and we call it fair.
How can we turn around and say that justice does not apply to all situations?”
Bugalugs: Yes you do – I mate with my wife (in my case I’m married) and voila! Le Baby! Where did that come from?!?! I could tell you in detail and no religious book can – because they didn’t know how it happened back then (although presumably an omnipotent being did so either Zoltan is hiding it from us or there is no Zoltan)
Justice is about the punishment that fits the crime – burning in eternal hell not because you HAVE a slave, but because he/she doesn’t get up after three days after a good beating (within 3 days and you’re all clear) is not justice. Burning in eternal hell forever because you THINK to yourself that your neighbours ox looks damn good and you wish you had it is not justice.
And we hope it applies in all situations, but of course it doesn’t in many situations…
@ Hamza – you don’t have an argument. You fall into the trap everyone who has written this or believes does which is you create this imaginary figure and try to define it in vague and unintellectual terms which just bares out the lack of knowledge on this topic. I’m not saying you aren’t intelligent, just not clued into how logic works.
Otherwise you could say something equally useless like “well, God is beyond us and we can’t know Him so I’m just talking to you in general terms, but God is actually eternally good and full of love”. Well then, how do you know all this? If God is beyond our understanding then we don’t understand Him and can’t make assumptions as to whether He is good or not, especially when He has asked for the murder of an entire community save the prepubescent virgin girls (today we would call it comfort women for paedophiles) – great Zoltan? I think not!
Mon Jan 17, 06:20:00 AM 2011
Bugalugs said...
@ Hamza, well, first I would ask “who created you Zoltan? What gives you the right to tell me what is good and what’s not? What’s to say you aren’t lying to me? As a parent I created my children and provide them everything they need (and more) and I don’t demand subservience, kneeling, praying and the prostration by them in my presence? If you are a loving creator why are you so jealous and mean?”
@ Hamza: ”… Zoltan looks down on the universe…. Instead of just destroying the human race, Zoltan sends down messages to the humans on how to live peacefully…”
Bugalugs: Well, you could have done that for Adam?!?! Nope, instead we get eternal suffering because of the actions of our ancestor.
And you are an absent parent, of course if you leave kids alone for a long time they will go at each other – I mean you are omnipotent and DIDN’T read the Lord of the Flies?!?!
“Instead of destroying everyone” – hello, didn’t you do the flood?!?!”
And the “instructions” you gave to desert dwelling bronze age idiots when you could have (a) given it to all people WW for consistency, (b) had the different instructions agree on something (REALLY not one for consistency), (c) actually provide a comprehensive document of morals and real world explanations rather than just tell us how to carve up cattle, rape, murder, commit genocide, infanticide, incest, slavery… and you wonder what happened??!?!? You REALLY are an idiot Zoltan!
@Hamza: “…Zoltan looks down and sees that some humans are trying to hurt… the humans who have followed Zoltan's advice. How would you feel if you were Zoltan?...”
Bugalugs: So this omnipotent being who is so kind and full of love is a social retard and bad parent? Why WOULD you follow this nut job if he existed?!?
@ Hamza: “You can cause your child to be born, but you create him/her out of thin air. Zoltan created us, as a human race, and I think it's fair to say that the hurt we cause to Zoltan by mocking him and not believing his message deserves retribution. In court if someone commits a crime, they are punished. That is our modern day justice system, and we call it fair.
How can we turn around and say that justice does not apply to all situations?”
Bugalugs: Yes you do – I mate with my wife (in my case I’m married) and voila! Le Baby! Where did that come from?!?! I could tell you in detail and no religious book can – because they didn’t know how it happened back then (although presumably an omnipotent being did so either Zoltan is hiding it from us or there is no Zoltan)
Justice is about the punishment that fits the crime – burning in eternal hell not because you HAVE a slave, but because he/she doesn’t get up after three days after a good beating (within 3 days and you’re all clear) is not justice. Burning in eternal hell forever because you THINK to yourself that your neighbours ox looks damn good and you wish you had it is not justice.
And we hope it applies in all situations, but of course it doesn’t in many situations…
@ Hamza – you don’t have an argument. You fall into the trap everyone who has written this or believes does which is you create this imaginary figure and try to define it in vague and unintellectual terms which just bares out the lack of knowledge on this topic. I’m not saying you aren’t intelligent, just not clued into how logic works.
Otherwise you could say something equally useless like “well, God is beyond us and we can’t know Him so I’m just talking to you in general terms, but God is actually eternally good and full of love”. Well then, how do you know all this? If God is beyond our understanding then we don’t understand Him and can’t make assumptions as to whether He is good or not, especially when He has asked for the murder of an entire community save the prepubescent virgin girls (today we would call it comfort women for paedophiles) – great Zoltan? I think not!
Mon Jan 17, 06:21:00 AM 2011
Johaun Guillory said...
I agree with the question "is anything cruel to a believer?"
People choose what to believe and omit the horrors and crimes out of these books. Because they feel they are serving a force greater than themselves, they give up common sense on what's right and wrong.
In the modern era, we don't need to plagued by this anymore. All this doses is draw lines between man and stops us from really having peace. Look at Iran and Israel today?!
Wed Aug 01, 10:09:00 AM 2012
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
14 June 2006God's Fiery Serpents
And they journeyed from mount Hor by the way of the Red sea, to compass the land of Edom: and the soul of the people was much discouraged because of the way. And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread. And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died. Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived. - Numbers 21:4-9
These verses have long fascinated both believers and skeptics. What were the mysterious "fiery serpents" that God sent to bite the people, causing many of them to die? Well, parasitologists say it may have been the guinea worm (The nematode Dranunculus medinensis).
To understand why the guinea worm is suspected, you must understand its life cycle.
Guinea worm larvae are released by their mothers into a body of water. The larvae thrash about vigorously until they attract and are eaten by a copepod, which is a small, nearly microscopic, crustacean. The copepod is, however, just a temporary home for the worm. It cannot complete its life cycle unless it can somehow get inside its definitive host: a human being. This is accomplished when someone drinks water containing the infected copepods.
The copepod's body is destroyed by the stomach acids, releasing the guinea worm, which then burrows its way through the intestinal wall. It begins to migrate through the abdominal cavity and into the connective tissue, stopping to mate with another migrating worm that it runs into along the way. By this time females have grown to be nearly a meter in length, while the males are only a few centimeters. After the worms have sex, the little male wanders off to find a place to die, while the female continues her journey through the human host's body.
While the migration of the female worms causes great pain and discomfort, it is when the worm reaches its final destination that the torment really begins. The worms end up just beneath the surface of the skin, usually in the legs or feet, where they remain for a month or more. Their metabolic wastes and the host's allergic reaction cause a blister to form, resulting in intense itching and burning pain. One of the few ways to relieve the pain is to immerse the blister in water, inducing the worm to break through the surface of the skin releasing millions of guinea worm larvae. A copepod eats the larvae, completing the guinea worm life cycle.
But the human suffering is far from over when the worm breaks through the skin, for although the female worms die soon after releasing the larvae, their dead meter-long bodies are not easy to remove. And even if the dead worms can be extracted without rupturing, serious secondary infections often occur.
So how is the worm removed? Well, the traditional way, which is still used today, is to carefully wind the worm around a stick. The only other option is surgical removal, but this is extremely difficult and not often successful.
Well, now that was interesting. But were the "fiery serpents" of Numbers 21 guinea worms in disguise? I'll leave that for you to decide, but some aspects seem to fit the description in Numbers.
The pregnant females are rather large worms and cause excruciating pain when breaking through the skin to release their larvae. So it is easy to see how they could be called "fiery serpents".
Guinea worms would have been present in the region at the time of the Exodus, as they still are today. If the Israelites encountered drought conditions, as they did according to the account in Numbers, it would have facilitated the transmission of the disease by concentrating worm larvae, intermediate hosts (copepods), and infected humans at the same water source.
And the serpent on a pole could well represent the most common form of treatment, then and now: pulling out the guinea worm by winding it on a stick.
Okay, let's assume the "fiery serpents" were guinea worms. If so, what message should we take from all this? What is God trying to tell us here? And what can we learn about God from this passage in Numbers?
One thing that should be clear to us all, of course, is the moral of the story: Don’t whine. God can’t stand a whiner. So if you or your children don’t have enough to eat or drink, well, just keep quiet about it. Whatever you do don’t mention it to God. If you ever get tempted complain about it, just look at this as a reminder.
So we know why God did it. What isn’t so clear, to me at least, is how. Did he simply infect the drinking water with guinea worm larvae? Or did he specially create guinea worms just for the occasion? If so, why didn’t he clean up afterwards? Why did millions of people have to suffer (and still suffer today) because the Israelites complained to God about their living conditions?
And what should we make of the “serpent on a pole” thing? The bible says that people were cured just by looking at it. Would it still work today? If so, then someone should let people know because the current treatment is much more involved (and painful) than that.
You also have to wonder why God didn’t explain how to prevent further infections, because prevention is much easier than treatment. All that is needed is to filter the drinking water through a fine-mesh cloth to remove the copepods. (The World Health Organization has nearly eradicated the disease by using this method.) Wouldn’t that be better than the Moses’ magic brass serpent - or the real treatment that this may have represented? Didn’t God know how to prevent the disease that he created?
But the last question is most important of all. Why are there guinea worms? Did God specifically design these worms to live inside the body of humans? Or were they created by Satan? Or did they just evolve, and God had nothing to do with it? If the first is true, then God is evil. If the second, then there are at least two gods. If the third, then God cannot control his own creation. Which do you think it is?
Posted by Steve Wells at 6/14/2006 10:34:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
5 comments:
Annie said...
Wow, I love the information about the parasites and you just may be right that these were indeed the fiery serpents.
I would like to address some of your questions. God did provide prevention for the parasite. When the people needed water, Moses would strike or speak to the rock and the rock would produce water (from underground streams). This parasite lives above ground in standing or stagnate waters. Apparently, the people were not drinking from God's provision but from their own knowledge.
Also, why would God invent a parasite whose main function seems to be to kill humans? My guess is this parasite was created to thin herds of animals who came to drink at the stagnate ponds. It was population control for animals - not humans.
Let's not forget that when God created man, his intent was that they live 'in the Garden' not on the whole earth. And, why would that be? Because when Satan's rebellion was defeated, instead of destroying Satan, God wanted to allow him a time to repent, so he cast him down to the earth.
Then, when God created man, he placed man in the Garden - a place set aside where man could live in relative safety from Satan. Unfortunately, Satan slipped in disguised as a serpent.
When man decided to disobey God by eating the apple - he was expelled from the Garden - so now we are in Satan's domain. Thus - the parasite.
God bless you.
Thu Jun 15, 08:04:00 AM 2006
Steve Wells said...
annie said: "why would God invent a parasite whose main function seems to be to kill humans?"
Good question, Annie. Dracunculus medinensis only affects humans; no other mammals are used as hosts. So apparently God invented them to torment and kill humans. Why would he do that?
"- so now we are in Satan's domain. Thus - the parasite."
So Satan created the guinea worm? Were some species created by God and others by Satan? Do you know which were created by God and which by Satan?
Thu Jun 15, 10:20:00 AM 2006
organelle said...
Fascinating post.
Firstly, the problem is not God.
Invariably, humans who have been confused by reading various religious texts -literally- obtain greater ignorance rather than understanding.
However, also invariably, man blames God for what man has created, not god, and not satan.
Parasites are an unusual life form, not entirely dissimilar to viruses.
To make a very complicated story short: certain activities of mankind affect heaven in ways that are so problematical that they threaten the basis of all universes, and mankind.
Since heaven is essentially 'a source placeBeing' what is done here, has purchase upon it in a way not unlike how what is done to a child affects the parents, families, etc.
In this case, what happens is a feedback event. The event emerges in evolutionary time as many different kinds of results, however, -all native peoples- are aware of this whole 'snake problem'. It's not actually about snakes — it's about a root-form of something which is a metaposition to animals in general.
Your essay is brilliant, and I am grateful to have seen it, but your conclusion is mistaken.
The snakes were created by the humans, who did things (I can tell you what but will not here) which essentially caused this result. They then blamed God, who, rather than punishing them for blaming him, or for anything at all, sent healing.
Mon Jan 11, 07:23:00 AM 2010
Paul Webb said...
And my question to you....
does he still send healing, as I'm sure many children still suffer from this worm now...
Sun Jun 09, 04:41:00 AM 2013
jonny draco said...
"...instead of destroying Satan, God wanted to allow him a time to repent, so he cast him down to the earth."
Annie, Why did he "cast him down to earth" and not on Pluto or any other planet?
Tue Dec 03, 07:18:00 AM 2013
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
06 June 2006The Bible's War on Marriage
There's a war on out there. A war on marriage. But the attack is not from gays or atheists, or even from academic feminists. It's from the Bible. Consider these verses that:
Encourage polygamy.
If he take him another wife.... -- Exodus 21:10
If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated.... -- Deuteronomy 21:15
Encourage adultery.
And the LORD said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms. -- Hosea 1:2
Then said the LORD unto me, Go yet, love a woman beloved of her friend, yet an adulteress.... So I bought her to me for fifteen pieces of silver, and for an homer of barley, and an half homer of barley. -- Hosea 3:1-2
Encourage the buying and selling of wives.
And Saul said, Thus shall ye say to David, The king desireth not any dowry, but an hundred foreskins of the Philistines.... And when his servants told David these words, it pleased David well.... Wherefore David arose and went, he and his men, and slew of the Philistines two hundred men; and David brought their foreskins, and they gave them in full tale to the king, that he might be the king's son in law. And Saul gave him Michal his daughter to wife. -- 1 Samuel 18:25-27
Discourage marriage.
It is good for a man not to touch a woman. -- 1 Corinthians 7:1-2
For I would that all men were even as I myself.... I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I. -- 1 Corinthians 7:7-9
Discourage sex in marriage.
But this I say, brethren, the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none. -- 1 Corinthians 7:29
Encourage divorce.
If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her.... -- Deuteronomy 22:13
When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife. -- Deuteronomy 24:1-2
So in the war on marriage, the republicans are fighting the wrong enemy. It's not gay marriage that needs to be outlawed; it's the Bible.
Posted by Steve Wells at 6/06/2006 07:50:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
31 comments:
Chaucer Arafat said...
interesting--
when anyone begins making the metaphors of their religious text realities, they don't last long beyond that point. and that works both ways. when criticism reads verse literaly, it loses all potency.
either way, i wish more 'believers' would at least examine these issues.
Tue Jun 06, 09:43:00 AM 2006
Mark said...
I can see how you came to understand this, but none of those verses, (or anywhere in the Bible) actually condones polygamy, it is merely recorded.
Paul never says you can't marry, he says to avoid immorality, "But because of immoralities, "each man should have relations with his own wife and each woman with her own husband." (1Cor 7:2).
Wed Jun 07, 09:50:00 AM 2006
JustMe said...
Encourage adultery.
And the LORD said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms. -- Hosea 1:2
------------------------
I was just curious as to how this verse encourages adultery?
Wasn't Hosea unmarried?
A wife of whoredoms, refers to her reputation, not that it is ok to be an adulterer ...
Thu Jun 08, 08:58:00 PM 2006
Steve Wells said...
Mark said...
"I can see how you came to understand this, but none of those verses, (or anywhere in the Bible) actually condones polygamy, it is merely recorded."
No, but it does provide instructions for marrying more than one wife (Ex.21:10 and Dt.21:15).
Mark said...
"Paul never says you can't marry...."
No, but he sure discourages it in 1 Cor.7:1-2 and 7:7-9.
Sat Jun 10, 11:45:00 AM 2006
godisajokeDOTcom said...
I like your article on the war on marriage. I wish I'd have written it myself. I have an essay on the "sanctity" of marriage. If you don't mind, I'll post it here:
http://www.godisajoke.com/2006/03/01/feminism/if-marriage-is-an-institution-its-the-institution-of-banking/
Keep up the good work!
Sun Jun 11, 08:01:00 PM 2006
Mark said...
Steve,
Unfortunately you make no point whatsoever.
It seems that the original post can't make it's claim within the Bible.
Tue Jun 13, 11:52:00 AM 2006
Mark said...
Don't blame Paul that he recognizes how tough marriage is, which is the point of his comments.... it is hard.
A cursory review of marriage stats proves that not enough people are committed enough to stay married, that is how tough it is. I think alot of those divorced people wished they had taken Pauls advice and stayed single in the first place as opposed to going through the pain and sufering of a failed marriage and divorce.
Wed Jun 14, 03:23:00 PM 2006
Jason Leonard said...
I think I could spend eternity trying to correct all the inaccuracies this blogger is making.
If you enjoy your SAB so much, maybe you should read http://www.tektonics.org/sab/sab.html to get a clearer idea on where the SAB makes a mountain of a molehill.
Mon Jun 19, 07:59:00 PM 2006
Steve Wells said...
"If you enjoy your SAB so much, maybe you should read http://www.tektonics.org/sab/sab.html to get a clearer idea on where the SAB makes a mountain of a molehill."
Oh, I've seen it, Jason. And I love it! That's why I am displaying Turkel's responses and providing links to his site at the SAB. I recommend that people go there to see his responses. Here's his defense of Deuteronomy 21:22, for example:
"Other than SAB's weenie attitude towards such things, the problem is what? This is the kind of person who thinks it's an argument against the death penalty to point out about the smell of singed hair."
It's okay for God to tell us to kill people and hang there dead bodies on trees because I am a weenie.
Mon Jun 19, 08:55:00 PM 2006
Brucker said...
All of your points aside here that I will eventually come to address in my own blog, a funny thought occurs to me that while not everyone agrees that marriage was originally instituted by the Bible, it may be more of a safe bet that divorce was instituted by the Bible.
Tue Jul 18, 01:30:00 PM 2006
netZombie said...
Seems the biggest arguments stem from the interpretation of a given biblical verse. We could seemingly spend eternity arguing over what was originally intended, but we may never know, given the translation upon translation the bible has been through. Original meaning/intent has been lost or reinterpreted to support how we feel about a given issue or moral arguement.
Big waste of time and energy IMHO. Instead of spending hours tossing insults and and arguing over "what (insert bible verse here) really means" just love and live your religion as you see fit and be done with it.
Tue Aug 01, 09:31:00 AM 2006
jake3988 said...
I hate that. People keep saying 'Its the context', "Its the interpretation'
There's a lot of things up to interpretation, but when a part of 'The Law' tells you its ok to kill someone and hang them from a tree, its saying just that.
The bible is the inspired word of god. If its something he didn't want in the bible HE WOULDN'T HAVE PUT IT THERE.
Or, you're wrong saying that and its hogwash anyway.
Tue Sep 05, 02:02:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
I think it is funny that whoever made this site put the parts of verses but didn't put where you can read the verse in context. Obviously, those who believe these lies are not hearers and doers of the Word of God. The Bible encourages sex IN marriage and discourages PREMARITAL sex. When we have sex with a person we are making a covenant with them, a covenant that is only supposed to be with a husband or wife.
The Law does NOT say that it is okay to kill someone and hang them from a tree. The Law (which are the Ten Commandments) says THOU SHALT NOT KILL. After Judas betrayed Jesus, he killed himself by hanging himself from a tree. The BIble later is talking about the disciples and says that all made it to Heaven but one. It wasn't the one who betrayed Jesus, Peter, because God forgives...but Judas killed. The scripture does not say thou shalt not kill anyone but yourself...it says thou shalt not kill. Jesus said he comes to bring life and life abundantly. I believe the best comment I can make is to when you see something about a scripture on a web site go study it yourself and not just take it as truth because it says it on the internet. Know the Word of God and then base your opinion on that. Truth IS NOT RELATIVE. The Holy Word of God is the ONLY truth we have. Keep that close to your heart and RESIST SATAN AND HE WILL FLEE!
Mon Oct 02, 08:25:00 AM 2006
Hana said...
Father God, I Thank You for bringing me to this site so that I can see how much our world needs You. I pray that every person that comes into this site will read the actual Bible and not scriptures parts from a web page to base their opinions on. God I pray that you wreck the lives of your creation until we make You the Lord of our lives and realize that Jesus dies for us. God I am sorry that we take for granted our freedom that we have and use it for evil. I know that YOUR Word will not return void and although these people are reading a misinterpretation of Your Word, the truth will become known to them. If only they would believe all the promises in the Bible like we do these ridiculous assumptions. The Bible also says that "Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord." Unfortunately, many of those will be at judgement when it is too late, so I ask that you prick hearts and change lives. I thank You that if it is Your will, that this website fail and miraculously disappears. We do not fight against flesh and blood but all of the powers of the darkness. Help us to see that we do not fight against each other but Satan who comes to steal, kill and destroy us, and this website is a part of his plan... I love you Father. Amen
Mon Oct 02, 08:36:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
I would like to point out that just because something was done in history,does not mean it is prevalent now. THe verses used are verses from the old testament. Jesus came so that we did not have to live the way poeple did in the old testament. I guess since you are assuming that god allows these things, then I should assume that ALL white people are prejudice because at one time there was slavery. I guess I should also assume that women should stay home and not work and men should be drafted to war against their will because that is how it used to be. Life changes over time. There are parts of the Bible that are simply used for history. On the marriage subject maybe you should read Song of Solomon, there is a true love story about a couple who was madly inlove. The way GOD planned it to be. Maybe you should read that like you this misuse of scripture and let that form your beliefs and relationships. That is how God intended it to be.
Mon Oct 02, 12:58:00 PM 2006
Believer said...
Jesus Loves you too! Even though you misuse His scripture.
Mon Oct 02, 01:02:00 PM 2006
Truths said...
1Co 7:7 -
I wish everyone could get along without marrying, just as I do. But we are not all the same. God gives some the gift of marriage, and to others he gives the gift of singleness.
1Co 7:14 - For the Christian wife brings holiness to her marriage, and the Christian husband brings holiness to his marriage. Otherwise, your children would not have a godly influence, but now they are set apart for him.
1Co 7:29 - Now let me say this, dear brothers and sisters: The time that remains is very short, so husbands should not let marriage be their major concern.
1Co 7:39 - A wife is married to her husband as long as he lives. If her husband dies, she is free to marry whomever she wishes, but this must be a marriage acceptable to the Lord.
Heb 13:4 - Give honor to marriage, and remain faithful to one another in marriage. God will surely judge people who are immoral and those who commit adultery.
Ex 20:14 - "Do not commit adultery.
Le 20:10 - "If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death.
De 5:18 -
"'Do not commit adultery.
De 22:22 - adultery, both he and the other man's wife must be killed. In this way, the evil will be cleansed from Israel.
Pr 6:32 - But the man who commits adultery is an utter fool, for he destroys his own soul.
Ps 43:1 -
O God, take up my cause! Defend me against these ungodly people. Rescue me from these unjust liars.
Mal 2:16 - "For I hate divorce!" says the LORD, the God of Israel. "It is as cruel as putting on a victim's bloodstained coat," says the LORD Almighty. "So guard yourself; always remain loyal to your wife."
Mt 19:8 -
Jesus replied, "Moses permitted divorce as a concession to your hard-hearted wickedness, but it was not what God had originally intended.
Le 18:22 - "Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin.
Mt 16:3 -
red sky in the morning means foul weather all day.' You are good at reading the weather signs in the sky, but you can't read the obvious signs of the times!
Job 17:12 - They say that night is day and day is night; how they pervert the truth!
Ps 25:5 -
Lead me by your truth and teach me, for you are the God who saves me. All day long I put my hope in you.
Ps 26:3 -
For I am constantly aware of your unfailing love, and I have lived according to your truth.
Pr 8:7 -
for I speak the truth and hate every kind of deception.
Pr 12:19 - Truth stands the test of time; lies are soon exposed.
Isa 8:20 - "Check their predictions against my testimony," says the LORD. "If their predictions are different from mine, it is because there is no light or truth in them.
Isa 42:4 - He will not stop until truth and righteousness prevail throughout the earth. Even distant lands beyond the sea will wait for his instruction."
Jer 38:15 - Jeremiah said, "If I tell you the truth, you will kill me. And if I give you advice, you won't listen to me anyway."
Mon Oct 02, 01:19:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
" I would like to point out that just because something was done in history,does not mean it is prevalent now. THe verses used are verses from the old testament. Jesus came so that we did not have to live the way poeple did in the old testament. I guess since you are assuming that god allows these things, then I should assume that ALL white people are prejudice because at one time there was slavery. I guess I should also assume that women should stay home and not work and men should be drafted to war against their will because that is how it used to be. Life changes over time. There are parts of the Bible that are simply used for history. On the marriage subject maybe you should read Song of Solomon, there is a true love story about a couple who was madly inlove. The way GOD planned it to be. Maybe you should read that like you this misuse of scripture and let that form your beliefs and relationships. That is how God intended it to be."
It isn't about the fact that God ( New Testament Jehovah anyway) changed the rules for marriage as the years went by ( for that matter there are verses in the Bible that say God's laws are unchanging and always in effect and yet they morph continuously throughout the Bible which has more to do with the changing ways of the society instead of actual laws laid down by a god) but more about how these things were ever deemed morally right by a supposedly unchanging God who mysteriously has many different rules ordained for marriage. Curious enough polygamy and concubines just seemed to fall out of the picture in the new and improved, softer, gentler, more "loving" New Testament.................it doesn't matter why the bible changes its tune. The fact remains that the tune changed.How does Jesus coming into the picture in NT magically make polygamy or having concubines wrong all of a sudden if God had said it was all fine and dandy in OT.....Umm, it logically can't and that is why these verses are not truly taken out of context just because the OT rules are somehow denounced because of Jesus. Get real.
Mon Oct 16, 03:39:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
I think it is funny that whoever made this site put the parts of verses but didn't put where you can read the verse in context.
If you click on the link next to any of the verses quoted it goes directly to the whole section, complete with even more annotations to enlighten you.
Re polygamy, when a rule is made about how to treat your multiple wives then clearly it must be allowed to *have* multiple wives.
I really wonder if many christians have read much of the bible without being told by someone else a) what to read and b) what it "means".
"Song of Solomon, there is a true love story about a couple who was madly inlove."
This was the dude with 700 wives right? I mean, mad props and all, but is that really the example you were looking for?
Tue Nov 21, 08:48:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
Love your blog!! Speaking of Song of Solomon, isn't that where it was basically said that "my lover put a hand near my anus and caused me to move my bowels"? What a beautiful love story!!
Sat Dec 30, 12:35:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
The main interpretation of Hosea in my view, speaks to real life. The bible says that a man may divorce his wife for the sole reason of sexual immorality, but it also says that GOD hates divorce. In my own life I married a woman who at one time was a prostitute. We now are seperated but by having a relationship with GOD I have kept my covenant with GOD and she has gone to others. Remember this- for better or for worse. This statement alone covers an unending uncomprimising promise which should only end -Till death due you part. Jesus no matter what we do will always be waiting for us. When we look back HE will be there with HIS arms open. Likewise we should always use JESUS as our rolemodel. For if your wife should leave let her leave and if the man should leave let him leave, but if either can tolerate the other under the family they will sanctify. Keep JESUS as the model and always remember in marriage that as a christian the HOLY SPIRIT is your guide and that GOD hates divorce. The 3 are 1, just like in marriage the two flesh become one!
Sun Jan 14, 10:12:00 PM 2007
Saadaya said...
The author of this article missed the instructions on how to rape a woman and purchase her in Deuteronomy 22 - if a woman does not scream loud enough when she's being raped, that it's her fault (because women weren't supposed to walk alone, without men to 'protect' them) - and if she's compromised she must be stoned to death but if she's not then her father must sell her to her aggressor! At no point does he ask his daughter if she wants to marry the man who just raped her. He just sells her to him.
The price of a woman is fixed in this chapter at 50 shekels of silver. How's that for family values?
Deut. 21 also has instructions on how to do a massacre and rape the surviving women, and how to stone your own son to death if he gets drunk. "All of Israel will know of this and will fear".
Wed May 16, 11:44:00 AM 2007
Saadaya said...
In Genesis 30 we see Jacob having sex with FOUR WOMEN: his two wives (who were sisters), and his two slaves/concubines - these four women are the mothers of the 12 tribes of Israel.
Abraham was also a slavemaster and also raped Hagar, his Egyptian slave. Whenever there is more than one wife, there's a favorite one and favorite sons. Joseph, for example, was sold into slaver by his own brothers who were jealous, he was his father's favorite son and his mother was his father's favorite wife. Abraham also kicked his own son and slave into the desert under the whispers of his wife Sarah who had a fit of jealousy and madness. In Genesis 21 SHE ordered him to leave them in the desert, where the Bible admits that it was a miracle that they survived. Yet, in spite of his lack of character and his negligence with his son, Abraham was God's "chosen".
"Get rid of that slave woman and her son, for that slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with my son Isaac." - Genesis 21:10
Bible family values for u!
Wed May 16, 12:04:00 PM 2007
Lord DoomRater said...
"It's okay for God to tell us to kill people and hang there dead bodies on trees because I am a weenie."
Way to miss the argument by jumping at the ad hominem. So what IS the problem?
Wed May 23, 06:55:00 PM 2007
jeffrey said...
I'm sure if I looked at your life....took pieces out of it to fit an obscure version of who I think your are...it would be easy. Truth is, all those things u mention fit perfectly into a blief that has changed peoples lives forever. However, it is Us Christians that mess it up....that is where the blame is. Your points miss the mark, but ur intention makes clear our faults....I thank you for that.
Sat May 26, 07:42:00 AM 2007
Tony said...
This post reminds me of the way Lucifer takes Biblical quotes out of context and defines them for his own purposes.
Like jeffrey said it is pretty simple to take any excerpt from any written document and justify it for your own means (Congress has been doing it for decades).
I've heard of some of the claims atheists make about Christian doctrine and if I didn't know any better I'd think them religious folk were out of their minds too. Truth is, most of the lies people think about Christians originate from the lord of flies himself. Inherently obscure and, of course, far from reality.
Perhaps you should check out Genesis 2:18, Genesis 2:24, Hebrews 13:4, Proverbs 18:22, I Corinthians 7:2-4 (the rest of your quote from above, proves the out of context theory).
You should probably take into account the time difference as well. The Old Testament was written way before Christ walked the earth, so bashing Christians for Old Testament texts is a little absurd, is it not? True Christians should still respect the laws of the Torah but a lot about culture has changed in the past few thousand years. A king having many wives was the way life worked back then. Oh and concubines aren't as common as they were before either.
Thu Jan 17, 08:32:00 AM 2008
aaron said...
If your God is so great, why would he make an imperfect religion, only to fix it over 1000 years later? The Biblical God has the maturity of a child. And why would a righteous God blame the entire human race for one man's sin and give us atonement through faith in a dead Jewish carpenter? May the Flying Spaghetti Monster endow you with knowledge from his noodly appendage.
Fri Jan 18, 11:21:00 AM 2008
Karla Elisa said...
This is interesting to me, as after being raised an atheist I began to search for 'my inner truth' in my 40's. I was going thru a big crises in my life and honestly needed something larger than me to rely upon.
I felt I had a 'spiritual' encounter and I attributed it to the Holy Spirit and began to study the Bible.
I began with the New Testament and began to search many things within myself which resulted in something I can only compare to therapy that worked. Applied correctly there is much to be gleaned from the NT in the Bible.
But when I began to read the Old Testament I had all kinds of problems. It was much harder to find spiritual truths there. In fact, my natural ability to desire 'proof' returned and the harder I've tried to find solid evidence to substantiate the wars, other events and people in it, I simply can't. No Moses, No Exodus, No Solomon, No 1st temple, No entitlement for the Israeli's to that land, etc.
In fact, all I can say is that I have far more questions than answers these days. And the fundies scare the crap out of me.
During this time I wound up getting married to a great guy who has half his family in what I guess I'd term a 'cult'. They are sabbatarians and take the bible literally. Something I've never been able to do. And what makes it even less palatable is how much money God seems to require. They actually believe you can purchase blessings and like the Bush admin, love living in fear of whether or not they are saved (safe).
They are an OT loving bunch. Still...
there are great lessons if you are soul searching but for me the Kingdom remains within. It's about finding harmony, learning to give and receive love and to be more compassionate. The rest of this jazz is but a bunch of fables and rules. So in a very big way I've benefitted from this experience but I've also come to the conclusion that any religious book that causes this much division in humanity is NOT divine.
I understand that people don't want their 'truth' proven crap.
But so many adopted this straight from their parents they never really had a choice to become free thinking individuals and that's a shame.
They could believe in God and not feel threatened by your mostly valid points here otherwise.
Sun Jun 08, 04:29:00 PM 2008
sitbaddoggy said...
A freethinker! (r)Amen! :)
I've heard of Christians and Muslims who turned atheist, but rarely about an atheist who went into faith and went out again. You are indeed correct, a supposedly holy book that sets humanity against itself isn't holy at all.
Mon Nov 24, 11:46:00 PM 2008
mwaetht said...
Yes, all questioners are being influenced by Satan so we don't need to respond to their arguments...
I'm sorry, but does anybody actually believe that is at all logical?
Tue Feb 03, 10:21:00 AM 2009
Ashley said...
It is vital that you always put what you are reading from the Holy Bible into context. For instance, actions of human characters in the old testement are there to describe the darkness of a man's heart. In the New testement, there is a lightness which inspires and motivates readers of the Holy Bible to move past those obstacles from the old testement. Remember & don't forget that the thread between the old and new testements is the birth of Christ and this is so powerful that it makes this year that I am typing this 2010 years since Christ's physical birth!
There is one critical element you may need to completely understand the Bible which you can only receive when you are found.
Signed,
a seeker of truth
Mon Mar 22, 02:11:00 PM 2010
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
05 June 2006And it came to pass
Anyone who reads the Book of Mormon (BoM) will notice that the phrase "and it came to pass" is used way too often. Mark Twain had this to say about it:
The author labored to give his words and phrases the quaint, old-fashioned sound and structure of our King James's translation of the Scriptures.... Whenever he found his speech growing too modern -- which was about every sentence or two -- he ladled in a few such Scriptural phrases as "exceeding sore," "and it came to pass," etc., and made things satisfactory again. "And it came to pass" was his pet. If he had left that out, his Bible would have been only a pamphlet. Roughing It, Chapter 16
The phrase is also, of course, frequently found in the King James Version of the Bible, which is no doubt why Joseph Smith used it in the BoM; it just sounds so darned biblical. The trouble is that he liked it so much that he got carried away with it. Here's a summary of the occurrences of "it came to pass" in the Bible and the BoM. Bible BoM
it came to pass 452 1424
The phrase occurs more than three times as often in the BoM as in the Bible. That doesn't seem so bad until you look at the size of the two books. The Bible is nearly five times as big as the BoM. Here's how the comparison looks when size is taken into account. Bible BoM
it came to pass 452 1424
number of verses 31,102 6553
Occurrences per 100 verses 1.45 21.7
So "it came to pass" is found in more than 20% of the BoM's verses -- 15 times as often as in the Bible! But, actually, it's a bit worse than that. The original 1830 edition of the BoM had even more uses of "and it came to pass." But since I can't find a searchable version of the 1830 edition, I can't quantify it for you.
Of course all of this can be explained. Brant A. Gardner in Meridian Magazine tells us that there's a good reason for all the and-it-came-to-passes; Joseph Smith used this phrase to mark the beginning of paragraphs. It's just that simple.
Still it seems strange that he would have had 30 paragraphs in the 39 verses of 1 Nephi 16. I guess the original translation didn't have any punctuation, but still 30 paragraphs in 45 or so sentences seems a bit excessive.
And if the and-it-came-to-passes were used to mark new paragraphs, why do some verses have more than one. Here's Alma 47:11, for example:
And it came to pass that when Lehonti received the message he durst not go down to the foot of the mount. And it came to pass that Amalickiah sent again the second time, desiring him to come down. And it came to pass that Lehonti would not; and he sent again the third time.
Did Joseph Smith really think there should be three paragraphs in this verse?
No, it looks to me like Mark Twain had it exactly right. Joseph Smith thought the and-it-came-to-passes made it sound like scripture, and it would make his rather short book a bit longer. So he couldn't resist.
Posted by Steve Wells at 6/05/2006 02:23:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
33 comments:
Anonymous said...
Now it came to pass that Steve had stumbled upon a rock and skinned his knee. It came to pass that he cursed the rock, yea the rock was silent. For behold it came to pass that Steve cherished the rock for it had held him in place, and it shall come to pass that Steve will wonder the rock a sign; yea, it came to pass that he realized it was just a rock, thrown away from a nearby hillside. It came to pass that Steve could not blame the rock, yea not forgive it for the folly it has played, for Behold it came to pass that it was just a rock. And it came to pass, as spot emac it dna.
Wed Apr 18, 10:22:00 PM 2007
Spencer said...
are you all mad? read the book of mormon. its true
Sun Nov 18, 09:53:00 AM 2007
Neil said...
And it came to pass that Joseph Smith made the entire thing up, making error after error so that he left a trail of bread crumbs laughably easy to follow.
And it came to pass that all who did follow the man and his fraud did not seem to use basic common sense when all of his prophesies did *not* come to pass, but bought the nonsense hook, line and sinker, even the ones he duped out of money in failed banking schemes.
And it came to pass that while even Bible skeptics could travel to Jerusalem or Galilee or Bethlehem or Athens, not even LDS could locate the Hill Cumorah, even though thousands are supposed to have perished there in great wars.
Sat Dec 15, 10:17:00 PM 2007
Jack said...
I dont know why the writers of the book of mormon (Nephi, Alma, Mormon, Moroni, and others) used the phrase "it came to pass" so many times. But that seems to matter very little, that same kind of thing happens in our day and age all the time. with Words such as "like" and "you know what I mean", people use them all the time.
If your having such a hard time with the Book of Mormon or how it was translated, by which was done under the direction of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Then you should ask your selfs do i beleave in Christ and if you do then read the Book of Mormon its about Christ, his teachings, his church, and his followers.
I have read the Book of Mormon. I have pondered its contents, I prayed to God, our father in heaven in the name of Christ with faith that I would recive (ask and it shall be given you, matthew 7:7 the Bible) and he did answer me. I invite all to do the same as I because it is true or it is not true and you need to ask God the only one you know for sure wont lie.
I know the Book of mormon is true and is more proof that Jesus lived that he is the Christ the bible is the word of God.
Fri Dec 21, 01:09:00 AM 2007
Neil said...
I do know why "And it came to pass" is in the BoM so many times.
Because the book was written by a single author. The plain and obvious truth stands there like an elephant standing in your living room, but you choose to ignore it.
You're right, in our *day and age* people say "like" and "you know what I mean", but fifty years ago they didn't, and in fifty years from now they will have other common terms and phrases. The dead giveaway for the BoM is that it is supposed to have been written over multiple generations by different authors but contains repetitive themes, repetitive phrases, and repetitive events.
You have the same arguments that every Mormon has, but you completely fail to address the book's foremost problem: Authenticity.
Even Bible skeptics can go to Jerusalem or Damascus or Bethlehem. Atheists can stand on the shore of the sea of Galilee and visit hundreds of locations mentioned in the Bible. The Jews are real people, as are the Greeks, the Romans, the Corinthians. These are real people in real places with a real history.
Now let's look at the BoM.
Not one single solitary person, place or event unique to the BoM is mentioned anywhere other than the BoM.
Now read that again.
This means that no place, person or event that the BoM alone speaks of has a single shred of evidence to confirm it as reality. No writings, inscriptions or any oral tradition can substantiate the book you hold as scripture. None.
The Book of Mormon was *not* translated under the direction of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, Joseph Smith put his head in a hat and read words on a stone. This is mentioned by Cowdery I believe.
The 'translation' was done one word at a time. No margin for error. Gift and power of God.
But the book has undergone thousands of changes since the 1830 edition. So much for being 'the most correct book ever written'.
No, the book is a fraud. Plain and simple. Mormons are now even questioning the location of Comorah because guess what, they can't find so much as an arrow head despite the supposed millions who fought and died there. And the church owns the property.
I know the Book of Mormon is not true and that Joseph Smith is not a true prophet. I know because having prayed and read, I received firm confirmation that the Mormon church is not true and that Smith is a false prophet Jesus warned about, deceiving many (about 12 million right now).
Sat Dec 22, 12:53:00 PM 2007
dsheffman said...
Neil. I appreciate your clarity and assertiveness. I also feel it necessary to reveal the holes in your argument to allow other people to see how impossible it is to prove or disprove with validity of the Book of Mormon with words and scientific evidences.
By your logic of trends in speech, Genesis, 1 Kings, Joshua, 1 Samuel, 2 Samuel, Nehemiah, Exodus, Judges, Jeremiah, Judges, and 2 Chronicles were all written by the same author. The truth is, the authors of these books had access to scripture that came before them and they wrote in the same pattern. Why would the Book of Mormon prophets have acted any different?
Second, one of the greatest aspect of the Bible is that many of the sites can be visited. Wouldn't it be great if we knew a tenth of the names of the cities and knew the cultures of Asia, Polynesia, Australia, Micronesia, Africa, and all the other forgotten languages and cultures from the time period of the Babylonian destruction of Jerusalem all the way to just after the time of the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. The sad truth is that we don’t. So then, by your logic, unless the Book of Mormon was from some place in Europe (i.e., where we have a record of more than a small fraction of the cities and the cultures of the specified time period) then we have reason to doubt that it ever happened. Reasonably, from a historical perspective I must agree. So again we are back at square one. And, if it had occurred in Europe, then where would we be. Well just as you said, Atheists can go to biblical locations and it does not prove to them that the bible is true, so why are we speaking of this as an evidence of the Book of Mormon being false?...I don't know.
3rd, I think it is silly to assert that the mode of translation could have anything to do with its validity. Did God not cure Israelites that looked upon the serpent in the wilderness, and did God not cure Naaman because he washing in the filthy river Jordan 7 times. As we all know God works in simple and mysterious ways.
In conclusion (“In conclusion” a commonly used phrase that transcends multiple generations to signify the last thought of a written piece) the Book of Mormon cannot be proven through words nor evidences. And if you are looking for some semblance of evidence, read the book and ask yourself if you yourself with more than the 2nd grade education that Joseph Smith had, could write something similar to what he wrote. And when that doesn’t work, pray about it and ask if it is true. “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.” James 1:5. Everyone has this God given right.
Even Neil prayed about it.
Wed Jun 04, 03:09:00 PM 2008
dsheffman said...
Correction: By your logic of trends in speech, Genesis, 1 Kings, Joshua, 1 Samuel, 2 Samuel, Nehemiah, Exodus, Judges, Jeremiah, Judges, and 2 Chronicles were all written by the same author. "Each one of these books uses "and it came to pass" multiple times. The truth is, the authors of these books had access to scripture that came before them and they wrote in the same pattern. Why would the Book of Mormon prophets have acted any different?
Wed Jun 04, 03:20:00 PM 2008
Michael said...
If anyone reads the KJV version of the Bible they will notice “And it came to pass” used very frequently as mentioned above in both sides of the debate. However, if we take a look at other Versions of the Bible we will notice that “And it came to Pass” is either not or very rarely used because the phrase was commonly used by the original translators of the KJV since they were translating it into the English of their time which is known as, “Early Modern English”. Here are several examples of other modern translations not or rarely using “And it came to Pass”:
New Living Translation: (0 Times)
English Standard Version: (3 Times, 5 “Came to Pass”, No AND or IT, all three instances do not start a verse like the KJV)
New American Standard Bible: (0 Times, 3 “It Came to Pass”, No AND)
New International Version: (0 Times, 2 “Came to Pass”)
Amplified Bible: (3 Times, 2 “So It Came To Pass”, 4 “Came to Pass”)
It is obvious from above that the only reason that “And It Came to Pass” was used often in the KJV is because of the English grammar of the time frame (early 1600s). It is now obvious from modern translation of the Bible from Greek, Hebrew and Ancient Manuscripts that we now have more “Modern English” rendering of the original texts. Thus, this proves that Joseph was highly influenced by the KJV [By obvious quoting of Isaiah (Sometimes even verbatim of the KJV), Malachi, and Matthew and by un-attributed quotes from the NT, Genesis, Exodus, Job, Micah, Hosea, and Psalms] since it was the only translation of the Bible available in English at the time of Joseph Smith and/or he stole material from the text from Solomon’s Spalding’s “The Manuscript” or from Ethan Smith’s (no relation to Joseph) “View of the Hebrews”. For my last point the Book of Mormon makes the EXACT SAME KJV translations errors for example: “Isaiah 9:1 should read 'honor' in the place of 'grievously afflict'. The Book of Mormon makes the same mistake.”(Source: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/curt_heuvel/bom_bible.html). I suggest that everyone who reads this read the following source above ^^^^^^^^^^^^^. It has some interesting points and is a good read.
Tue Oct 21, 11:43:00 PM 2008
softleyfamily said...
Did you know that for hundreds of years the prevailing thought was that the earth was the center of the universe. This geocentric view was fact to those who lived at the time and I'm sure many went confidently to their graves believing in their great wisdom. It is really pointless to use our current understanding of ancient civilizations as irrevocable fact or fiction judgment. Those who cite evidences of the Book of Mormon being untrue because it doesn't align with our current data are naive. What makes you think our current understanding is right? Aristotle was a bright guy and yet he was a geocentrist. We are not at the zenith of human knowledge so why pin your arguments on "facts" that can very possibly be disproven once you are dead and gone. I'd hate to think that my legacy was convincing people of something I ultimately ended up being wrong about because I refused to acknowledge that I didn't know everything.
Tue Jan 13, 08:03:00 PM 2009
maklelan said...
There are several errors in your assessment. To begin with, "it came to pass" is a rather literal translation of the Hebrew phrase wayehi. That phrase is not always translated the same way in the KJV, especially where it sounds redundant. It actually appears almost 800 times in the Hebrew Bible, which is not quite 1/3 of 1300. In addition, it only appears in narrative, not in poetry. Since the Hebrew Bible is largely poetry, and the Book of Mormon is almost never poetry, the frequency is in no way aberrant.
You say the word is used for new paragraphs, but that's untrue. It is used in many places every time a new sentence begins, and sometimes multiple times in a sentence. For instance, it appears three times in Gen 39:2, twice in 39:5, in 39:6, 7, 10, 11, 13, 15, 18, 19, 20, and 21. This is only three paragraphs in modern translations of the chapter, but fifteen uses of the phrase. That's almost twice as frequent as Alma 47:11.
Mark Twain did not have it right, and neither do you. If anything, Joseph Smith's composition is closer to ancient Hebrew literary standards than to the KJV.
Tue Jul 14, 11:45:00 AM 2009
attractivejeremy said...
Maklelan, it's too bad that Joseph Smith claimed the book of mormon was translated from "Reformed Egyptian" and not from Hebrew.
Mormons should really just stick to the blind faith thing. In that setting, you don't have to submit to the rules of basic God-given logic and reason.
Sat Oct 17, 12:10:00 PM 2009
danielomcclellan said...
attractivejeremy-
"Reformed Egyptian" is represented in the Book of Mormon as a combining of Hebrew and Egyptian. The most likely combination, based on textual discoveries of the 20th century, would be the Egyptian script and Hebrew grammar and syntax. This is supported by the Anthon Transcript, which shows great similarity to a number of Demotic characters.
Fri Jan 01, 11:00:00 AM 2010
featurephoto said...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTtq62XQ4jw
well worth watching! unfortunately they don't cover his use of 'and it came to pass'... but it clears up most of everything else.
Wed Apr 14, 12:41:00 AM 2010
danielomcclellan said...
A friend of mine has published a nice review of that video. You can find it here:
http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=18&num=1&id=598
Wed Apr 14, 06:04:00 AM 2010
Kerry Brown said...
I was watching an interesting show on NOVA about the evolution of our understanding of the Maya language.. This may be of interest to anyone reading this blog.
Apparently "And then it happened" was a very common glyph "phrase" in the Maya form of writing. Particularly when recounting a historical narrative...
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/3506_mayacode.html
Sun Aug 29, 07:25:00 PM 2010
Chevassus said...
You can view (page by page) then entire 1830 version of the Book of Mormon on:
http://www.inephi.com/Search.htm
Have fun!
Wed Jan 05, 12:51:00 PM 2011
Latvija13 said...
I find it interesting how people can mold their beliefs support pretty much anything. Mormons say that have proof that their book is true and perfect. Many Christians say their book is 100 percent true and perfect. Thousands of books have been written about both books and yet there simply is no real evidence that the Hebrew bible is anything but an attempt to make the Hebrew culture more important in ancient history than it actually was. The book of Mormon has no real substantial evidence even with all of the Mormon scholars saying otherwise. There is a burden of proof that Jews and Christians (including Mormons) have not addressed.
Fri May 06, 12:06:00 PM 2011
Donald said...
.....You show that you don't have a knowledge of how early literature was written and I also suspect you have not read the entire book. Before 1700, paragraphs were not used. This expression was used to show a different subject or moving into another area of thought. When they inserted paragraphs after 1700, they could have left it out when the made paragraphs, but since Joseph was a true prophet of God, he left it in as he should have been and this further authenticates the Book of Mormon. I also found the expression in one of the Mayan carvings.
.....A Jewish scholar who translated the Book of Mormon into Hebrew, said that the phrase was used perfectly in the Book of Mormon and if it had been left out, as you say it should have been, and the book would not have been accurate.
.....The phrase left in shows one more time that the unlearned Joseph Smith was truly a prophet of God, and not someone who made it up or used it without reason and had it written in just as it should have been and not because he liked to use it because it was in the Bible.
.....The Bible scholars also left it out quite a few times when it should have been left there also to show a change in events or thought.
.....I suggest you read the book and then you ask God if with a "sincere heart" if the Book of Mormon is the "word of God" I know if you ask really wanting to know for sure, He will tell you it is.
Fri Dec 16, 01:07:00 AM 2011
Unknown said...
Spent the last 15 days reading that book. Asked God if it was true. He said no.
Sat Dec 31, 03:28:00 AM 2011
thaumkid said...
I've read the Book of Mormon a couple dozen times. It most emphatically is not true history. Read the Book of Mormon, and then read the New Testament and find out how much it depends on the New Testament language and ideas.
Then learn about the historical-critical method and find out the ways in which the New Testament is deficient, and realize that Mormonism is subject to many failures because of its dependence on certain corrupt New Testament texts, which were never written by apostles nor inspired, but somehow make themselves part of Mormonism's core.
Sat Mar 31, 02:50:00 PM 2012
Andy said...
Actually I would expect most of the book of mormon to have lingual similarities running through it as it is purported to be compiled and abridged by one man. No, not Joseph Smith. It was the man the book was named for; Mormon. It it didn't have these 'catch phrases' running throughout it would actually be harder to believe that the book had been edited by one person. You will also notice that Ether and Moroni, two books in the book of mormon that did not have Mormon as their editor have significantly changed tonal structures.
Sun Aug 05, 06:19:00 PM 2012
Raewyn said...
Smith borrowed heavily from the bible. He also wrote about horses in the americas hundreds of years before they actually arrived with the Europeans. History, science and common sense will tell anyone who's not brainwashed that Joseph Smith MADE IT ALL UP.
As a former member of the LDS church I've come into the light and seen the truth. Do some research on the early days of the church. Joseph smith was a grade A con man. The best there ever was. However, the things he did, and let others do for him, have caused generations of damaged people, heart break and perpetual misery.
Sun Aug 05, 07:34:00 PM 2012
Patrick Grote said...
Hi, just thought I would drop this here.
For the many people posting that you should "ask God with a true heart" and the like, you are utilizing a very simple logical fallacy.
As I understand it from my Mormon friends, this means asking God with a heart full of belief that he will answer. Or, in other words, trusting that God is there, and that he will answer you.
In order to do this, you must first concede AND BELIEVE that there is a God, therefore making the exercise redundant. It would be similar to me saying "if you simply believe in Vishnu, you will understand that Hinduism is true. All you have to do is believe."
Just thought I'd clear that up for you. In order to "ask God" if he is real, you must first concede to the argument. The assertion in no way advances the discourse, and is essentially a rhetorical concession. Feel free to continue utilizing the argument, but understand that it is intellectually dishonest.
Sun Aug 05, 08:17:00 PM 2012
Greg Bonney said...
I know this is an old blog post and a lot of the comments are years old, but I couldn't resist throwing my belated 2 cents in and thanking the author of this blog. I started reading the BoM on their web site and was immediately struck by the number of times it says "and it came to pass that" and decided to do an internet search to see if anybody had counted them. When Joseph Smith wrote the BoM there was not much known about ancient peoples other than what we had in the Bible. So, he had no way to know that the ancient Americans did not know how to write on metallic sheets, did not have horses, or that it would some day be possible to prove through DNA that the American Indians are not a remnant of Israel. Smith also claimed to translate the Book of Abraham from an ancient Egyptian text. Unlike the BoM, though, the Book of Abraham original Egyptian texts actually exist and have been translated by Egyptologists. Unfortunately for Mormons, the Egyptologists say they consist of prayers to Egyptian gods and have nothing to do with Abraham. There is a great documentary on this on Youtube. Frankly, many Mormons are too invested in Mormonism to admit the their prophet was a fake. However, every Christian should teach their children about this information so they can never be sucked into this false religion.
Sun Aug 05, 09:34:00 PM 2012
Bryan said...
Ah, good ol'e Mark Twain. The world's great authority on Ancient Hebrew-isms and Mesoamerican Codex. Oh wait, that's right, I've got him mixed up with the guy that wrote cute kids books. Although you'd probably end up with a pamphlet if you took out all "aints" and "darn fix ins" in Tom Sawyer when he started to sound too...modern? Ok, I'm giving him too much credit. Then again, anyone like you whose best critical source of the Book of Mormon died in 1910 shouldn't really be trusted either. You and Clemens are probably good for each other. But I digress.
True, true Mr Clemens, if you take out "And it came to pass," in the Book of Mormon, you might have a pamphlet, but what you wouldn't have is an authentic Mesoamerican text. Which after a 1000 yr history Mormon would have certainly been influenced by surrounding literary and written tradition.
In the early '90's, David Stuart (remember him? The youngest ever recipient of the McArthur fellowship at age 18, Mayan epigrapher, University of Texas, Austin) made a land mark discovery in the deciphering of the Mayan language while focusing on a pair of signs already believed to be deciphered. Originally "i u ti" and "u ti ya" glyphs were thought to be forward and backward date markers. He discovered that multiple glyph substitutions seen of these phrases were purely phonetic substitutions that are spelling the same word in slightly different ways: "i u ti" and "u ti ya." In Mayan, 'i ut' means, '...and then it happened," and 'utiy' means, '...and since it happened." The words that repetitiously fill Mayan hieroglyphic accounts, that prior epigraphers had viewed as mere date markers, were in fact, introducing a forward or past-tense story. And those stories, carved in stone, copper plates, gold plates (visit the Peabody museum at Harvard and see for yourself), always began with 'i ut' or 'utiy.' Why, if you scratched out all the glyphic historical records in Guatemala that begin with 'and since it happened,' and 'and then it happened that,' why, you'd be left with a pamphlet. But I guess Mr Clemens would have preferred it that way. Too bad he didn't get to them first. Maybe he would have spared us of all the laughable repetition those crazy Mayans are wasting our time with. Why maybe he'd have carved in some 'fixin' to's' and some 'aints' for us so those darn Mayans wouldn't be so offensive to his ridiculously brilliant literary mind.
Mon Aug 06, 08:10:00 PM 2012
Joe Rizoli said...
The Book of Mormon is the Satanic straight faced look right in your eyes nonsense that LDS people believe. Satan is saying , hey I bet I could write a book of nonsense, have it be missing 17 or so of pages, contain stupid terms, made up people, contradictions, historical falsehoods, unfulfilled prophecies, and even turn the leader into a sexual pervert and get millions of dumb stupid people to believe it.
Tue Aug 07, 09:39:00 PM 2012
Hot Sam said...
Actually, this is quite an intelligent conversation from both the Mormons and the Mormon deniers.
I attempted to read the BoM, and after the tenth "And it came to pass," I recognized that God would never inspire a holy book so incredibly fucking boring. I mean, it doesn't have to be a literary masterpiece but it must at least be engaging and inspirational.
I find many parts of the KJV incredibly boring, but just when I think I can read no more, I am enthralled by one of the many stories we learned as children. of course I was also quite intrigued by all the begatting going on but in those days, kids were your retirement plan.
I've had many Mormon friends and my ex-wife and son are Mormon. as bizarre a faith as it is, I admire their love, compassion, mutual support, independence, tenacity, and spiritual stability. if it is a delusional religion, it is one I don't mind living next door to me. I see far more insipid and dangerous secular interests that occupy the souls of men.
so be nice and let people believe their harmless fairy tales. the temperament of the nonbelievers is often far more offensive, derisive, and unneighborly.
Mormonism isn't a cult of self hatred and death like some modern social and political philosophies. I still won't waste my time reading their book, but then again I gave up on Lord of the Rings four times.
Tue Oct 23, 11:53:00 PM 2012
the static fanatic said...
I approached two American elders in a German city I lived near in the 90's. After a brief chat explaining that I was a practicing Catholic, one of the the elders leaned towards me and said "either WE'RE right (LDS) or YOU'RE right (Catholic)". I was totally blown away by the idea that an elder would admit to that. When bringing this up with other LDS members after the incident, I was told it was basically a fringe belief held by very few in the church. I wasn't raised to hold stringent beliefs about the differences between the sects, and who was "right", so having this idea planted in my mind really got me questioning why the LDS were so vested in dealing in that sort of absolutism.
Wed Oct 24, 01:44:00 AM 2012
Garry Moss said...
I conversed with a Rabbi about the Book of Mormon some time back, and he specifically addressed this point. He said that it is a phrase that seems superfluous to us, but it is not. He said that it is a hebraism that speaks to the prophetic nature of scripture, and that the phrase that is translated that way could equally be translated as "and it shall be."
Mon Feb 25, 10:23:00 AM 2013
monolyth42 said...
Wow, Mormon apologists are even dumber than the Christian ones, and that's pretty hard to do!
Wed Jul 10, 08:27:00 PM 2013
Graham Lindsay said...
Once upon a time there was a minister who needed money as he was as poor as a church mouse. He came upon an idea why dont I write a wee history of the Americas and base it on the style of the Marco Polo book I have. He thought he could possibly make a nice wee sum of money. He finished it and sent it to a publisher but alas he died before it was published. The unpublished book sat gathering dust in the publishers until another man who had a couple of freinds thought lets see if we can shake this book up a bit by adding excerpts from the Bible, a wee bit from Hamlet and we can find a man with a gift of the gab to sell the book. That gift of the gab bloke was Joseph Smith who put his name to the book and that book was none other than the Book of Mormon. Unfortunaly to these people keching of the moneyfrom this book never happened. and they used the pretence of religion to make their money.
Thu Dec 05, 09:23:00 AM 2013
Carlos V said...
The phrase "and it came to pass" occurs in the english translation of the book of mormon 1381 times... Apparently the Maya people, who lived in southeast Mexico and Guatemala, may have adopted the phrase "and it came to pass"Recent discoveries in the translation of the 7th century AD Maya ruins of Palenque manifest the phrase "and then it came to pass" and "it had come to pass". Recently another glyph has been interpreted as "and it shall come to pass". Even if there is proof or evidence the only way to know for sure in our hearts is through confirmation of the holy spirit.
Tue Apr 15, 10:53:00 PM 2014
Jairon Terrero said...
Keep in mind that the Book of Mormon is an abridgment of a much larger pool of records. "It came to pass," may very well have been used to set off paragraphs, or merely to introduce a new section being summarized.
Sun Apr 20, 11:14:00 AM 2014
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
04 June 2006Saul has killed his thousands, and David his tens of thousands
And it came to pass as they came, when David was returned from the slaughter of the Philistine, that the women came out of all cities of Israel, singing and dancing, to meet king Saul, with tabrets, with joy, and with instruments of musick. And the women answered one another as they played, and said, Saul hath slain his thousands, and David his ten thousands. And Saul was very wroth, and the saying displeased him; and he said, They have ascribed unto David ten thousands, and to me they have ascribed but thousands: and what can he have more but the kingdom? And Saul eyed David from that day and forward. 1 Samuel 18:6-9
At the time that these events took place, David was a young man who had only recently been chosen and anointed by God. From that moment on, though, he was God's special hero, for the Bible says that "the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward." (1 Samuel 16:12-13)
Saul, too, was impressed with David, especially after seeing him kill the ten foot tall Goliath (1 Samuel 17:4) with just a sling and a stone. But when the dancing girls praised David for killing tens of thousands, while saying that Saul had only killed thousands, it was simply more than he could bear.
It wasn't that Saul couldn't compete with David in the number-of-people-killed category. Saul was one of the all time leading killers. One of his first acts, for example, after being anointed by God (1 Samuel 10:1), was to hack a yoke of oxen into pieces, sending the bloody pieces throughout Israel (1 Samuel 11:6-7). He did this marvelous act after "the Spirit of the Lord came upon him." In this way "the fear of the Lord" came upon all the people.
Well, okay, that was oxen, not people. But Saul could kill people too. In fact, the reason he killed the oxen was to force the Israelites to kill Ammonites. You see, when each tribe got a piece of a dead ox in the mail, they'd know it was a call to war. And if they refused to come, Saul would chop up their oxen - or worse.
And it worked too. Saul got 330,000 soldiers to enlist in his war against the Ammonites. That’s more than twice what Blair and Bush have in Iraq! Maybe they should hack up an ox or something.
Anyway, the war turned out great. It only lasted a few hours or so with the Israelites killing the Ammonites "until the heat of the day." Only a few Ammonites survived the day's slaughter, and although the bible doesn't tell us how many were killed, Saul must have racked up tens of thousands on that glorious day.
The Bible tells us that Saul continued to kill others throughout his reign (1 Samuel 14:47-48). Besides the Ammonites, he killed the people of Moab, Edom, and Zobah. And as for the Philistines, wherever he went "he vexed them." But he really outdid himself with the Amalekites. He killed enough of them to satisfy everyone. Everyone, but God, that is.
For some reason, God really hates Amalekites. Way back in Exodus (17:16) he said, "The Lord has sworn that the Lord will have war with Amalek from generation to generation." And I guess he meant it, because in 1 Samuel 15:3, hundreds of years later, God orders Saul to kill every last Amalekite, "both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."
Now killing women and children was no big deal to a world-class killer like Saul. Yet somehow, in a moment of ungodly weakness, he let the Amalekite king, Agag, and some of the animals, live. He killed everyone else, though - every man, woman, and child, just as God commanded.
God never forgave Saul for that single act of mercy. He had told Saul to "Go and utterly destroy the sinners the Amalekites," and yet he did "not obey the voice of the LORD." Because Saul rejected the word of the LORD, God rejected Saul from being king.
Then David came along and God knew he'd finally found his killer-king.
And yet according to one of Donald Rumsfeld's aids, The news out of Haditha is "really, really bad -- as bad or worse than Abu Ghraib." But it was nothing compared to what God commanded Saul to do to the Amalekites.
Aren't Rumsfeld and Bush Bible-believers? Why are they ashamed of killing a couple dozen unarmed civilians? They should remember God's command to Saul and take their inspiration from that. "Saul has killed his thousands, and David his tens of thousands." How many have Rumsfeld and Bush killed lately?
Posted by Steve Wells at 6/04/2006 07:15:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
3 comments:
Jason Leonard said...
What makes Rumsfeld and Bush Bible-believers? Or at that, even followers of the Bible? A weekly photo-op at the church that happens to be across the street from the whitehouse? An extreme right-wing platform which they've done nothing to uphold? I'm with you on this - Bush and Rumsfeld are evil. But I contend with what degree they really are Bible-believers. As a matter of fact, you should watch the video of what goes on at Bohemian Grove.
Hitler was called a Christian in his day, too, although he was really an Arian. What is that? It is an occultic offshoot of mysticism that claims Christianity and the Christian God, but teaches more from Secret Doctrine than it does from the Bible.
As a typical skeptic, I love how you take things out of context so it says what you want it. Nevermind the many other reasons God had for choosing David, you just go on concluding it had to be that he was such a good warrior. Forget the fact that David remained loyal to God in spite of all the continuous harrassment Saul gave him for trying to take his place...
Mon Jun 19, 08:27:00 PM 2006
snake712 said...
I'd like to mention the rest of Samuel 25 here:
Pretty much, its Saul trading his daughter to David for 100 Philistine foreskins.
Wed Aug 23, 09:13:00 PM 2006
jeremy patrick said...
The truth appears when God comes and knocks on the door of your heart (for the millionth time), comes in and asks, "Are you ready to take up your cross?" Only this time, for the first time, you respond almost silently, and with extreme remorse, "... ... ... yes."
Then the peace of God overcomes you. But your suffering has not yet begun.
David slayed his tens of thousands, and Jesus his billions.
http://jeremypatricksthoughts.blogspot.com/2010/02/glorious-cross.html
Sat Feb 20, 10:28:00 AM 2010
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
04 June 2006Behold, it was very good.
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. Genesis 1:31
Everything that God made was, at least at the time and according to him, very good. But things seem to have changed since then.
This is a problem for believers (and not just bible-believers, but all theists and deists, as well). Where did all the predators, parasites, disease, death, and suffering come from? Since they exist, they must have been designed. And although the design may have been intelligent enough, it could hardly be called benevolent.
But Christians believe in a benevolent God. So what's with all the nasty stuff out there?
Well, as you might have guessed, it's all right there in the Bible. But like everything else in there, it depends on who you ask.
Some say that the original creation was just like God said it was in Genesis 1:31: very good. No predators, prey, suffering, death, or disease. Every living thing was immortal and would have lived happily ever after, if only Adam (who cares about Eve?) didn't sin. But he did, so God changed everything. Creatures prey upon one another in a painful struggle ending in a pointless death.
Others say that death and suffering are all a part of God's grand design. Nature is red in tooth and claw because God likes it that way.
[W]e like to think of God as being the God of love. However, God's character is multifaceted and complex. The God of love is going to throw plagues against the earth, eventually burn it up in judgment, and ultimately sentence the unrepentant to eternal torment. Animal death is certainly no less loving than these things.
The God of love tortures people forever in hell; he also enjoys watching cats play with mice.
Others say that God's creation was perfectly benevolent, but then Satan snuck in and ruined everything. They quote Matthew 13:28 where the servant asks the master where the weeds came from and he replies, "An enemy has done this." Satan has power to change God's creation, and he has done so with a vengeance. There is a war going on within nature and God is just another enemy combatant.
Others say that in the beginning God started it all in a big bang billions of years ago, but he didn't know where it was going and didn't intervene along the way (except for maybe a tweak now and then when nobody was looking). He's as surprised (if he still exists) and as shocked by what he sees as you are.
And others just pretend that nature is kind and ignore it when it appears otherwise. Just like they do with the Bible.
I'd be interested to know what the believers think about these options. Which do you prefer? And did I miss any?
Posted by Steve Wells at 6/04/2006 01:39:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
5 comments:
chumly said...
I heard about the "STRING THEORY" and wrote about it. Yeah, it is in my blog and I am not trying to get you to read it, but if you must. I will pray for you.
Sun Jun 04, 02:49:00 PM 2006
Steve Wells said...
Chumly: "I heard about the "STRING THEORY" and wrote about it. Yeah, it is in my blog and I am not trying to get you to read it, but if you must."
I couldn't find it at your blog, Chumly. What does string theory have to do with the problem of evil?
Chumly: "I will pray for you."
That's nice. Nothing fails like prayer.
Sun Jun 04, 06:59:00 PM 2006
Discipula said...
I go with the first option, adding that Satan had a hand in the fall in tempting man to sin. But I take issue with the assertion that "[c]reatures prey upon one another in a painful struggle ending in a pointless death." It's true that "God changed everything"; it would not have been merciful to let man live forever in his fallen state. Man is busy enough creating hell as it is without having endless days to do it in. So God limited the lifespan of mankind, cursed the earth and its inhabitants to futility, and established a just penalty for sin. At the same time, He left His image stamped on the hearts of men, meaning that they are still conscious of Him and still unalterably designed to know and love and be satisfied in Him. If God had left us there--cursed, but still consciously needy--life and death would indeed be meaningless. But God is merciful, so He sent Jesus to restore abundant life (John 10:10).
Fri Oct 06, 07:21:00 PM 2006
C Woods said...
Discipula said, "But God is merciful, so He sent Jesus to restore abundant life (John 10:10)."
I don't see that much has changed for the better since god supposedly sent Jesus. People ---many of them "good Christians" --- are still dying. Hurricanes, floods, droughts, and other disasters happen. Crops fail. People lose their jobs. Accidents happen. Animals (including humans) kill other animals for food. People suffer from painful and life-threatening diseases. Some are abused, physically, mentally, or sexually. Wars ---many of them over religious issues ---are waged. People kill each other for religious reasons ---they burn suspected witches, stone people, kill abortion doctors, fly planes into skyscrapers, bomb subways.
So, after 2000 years, where is the full and abundant life Jesus came to restore?
There may be an abundant life for some, but the vast majority of humanity, many of them god-fearing Christians, still live a hard life, eking out a meager existence. And there is nothing "abundant" about it.
Wed Dec 16, 05:54:00 PM 2009
Cameraman Geno Wharton said...
As a Deist, I believe natures God created the universe to function according to the Creators laws of nature. It has nothing to do with good. Natures God is not in the Bible nor in any other book. But the Creators laws of nature can be read about in science books :)
Sun Dec 29, 11:56:00 AM 2013
Post a Comment
Newer Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
29 July 2006Ann Coulter on ID
There's an interesting Ann Coulter interview at Beliefnet. Most of the others that I've seen have focused on her nasty name-calling habits, rather than her ideas, which are even worse. Here, for example, is what she says about creation, evolution, and intelligent design.
Beliefnet: You devote four of your eleven chapters to evolution, and say that Darwin's theory of evolution is "about one notch above Scientology in scientific rigor." So what do you think really happened? Did God create the world in six days? Did he create each species separately? Did he set a chain of causation in motion? Did he "cause" evolution in the sense that all the species are related to each other but God guided their descent?
Coulter: These are unanswerable questions--except the latter. God did not "cause" evolution because evolution doesn't exist. Thus, for example, He also didn't "cause" unicorns. My faith and reason tell me that God created the world and I'm not particularly interested in the details. I'll find out when I meet my Maker.
Did God create the world in six days? Did he create each species separately? Did he set a chain of causation in motion?
She doesn't know or care. She's not interested in the details.
Are any creationists or IDers interested in the details? It reminds me of the dialog in the movie "Inherit the Wind."
Drummond: Now listen to this. This is Genesis 4:16: "And Cain went out from the presence of the Lord and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden. And Cain knew his wife." Now where the hell did she come from?
Brady: Who?
Drummond: Mrs. Cain. Cain's wife. If, in the beginning, there were just Cain and Abel, and Adam and Eve, where did this extra woman come from? Did you ever stop to think about that?
Brady: No, sir. I leave the agnostics to hunt for her.
Drummond: Never bothered you?
Brady: Never bothered me.
Drummond: Never tried to find out?
Brady: No.
Drummond: You figure somebody else pulled another creation over in the next county somewhere?
Brady: The Bible satisfies me. It is enough.
Drummond: It frightens me to think of the state of learning in the world if everybody had your driving curiosity.
Posted by Steve Wells at 7/29/2006 11:42:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
13 comments:
Bacon Eating Atheist Jew said...
You can't expect intelligent dialogue from Coulter on evolution. She obviously has no clue. I would like to see someone ask her if she considers herself an expert on what evolution theory states. Asking just for her views will get you nowhere.
I would like to see her in a debate with Ken Miller.
But it will never happen.
Sun Jul 30, 05:03:00 AM 2006
Iznmoneak said...
Coulter said, "My faith and reason tell me that God created the world and I'm not particularly interested in the details."
Iznomneak's response: "Those nasty details seem to get in the way of reason."
Sun Jul 30, 12:07:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Please enlighten me if this is an ignorant question, but why does it matter how the universe came into being? Educational inquiry aside, why is it that people spend so much time and energy fighting over whether the universe evolved or whether God created it?
We weren't there. None of us. We believe what we believe based on what we perceive to be facts. Some people perceive scientific evidence as fact. Some people perceive religious documentation as fact. But we don't know what happened. And we probably never will.
The universe is a mystery of greater vastness than our minds can hold.
Sun Jul 30, 10:05:00 PM 2006
Iznmoneak said...
Anonymous, a response to your post can be found here:
http://p089.ezboard.com/fsabdiscussionboardgeneral.showMessage?topicID=4630.topic
Mon Jul 31, 10:10:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
Iznmoneak, I appreciate your response to my earlier post. In answer to your questions, I have absolutely no idea how old the earth is.... I'm not a fan of the "young earth" argument. Carbon dating and all that...yes, things seem old. But since I wasn't around millions of years ago, I can't say that I'm 100% for or against evolution. I'm skeptical that the intricacy of the universe could have come about without intelligent design, but I don't think "intelligent design" rules out the possibility of the evolutionary process, either.
You said that the post was on Coulter rather than cosmology, and of course I don't disagree, but since the Coulter interview was about cosmology, the topics seemed to me to intertwine.
You did a great job analyzing each of my sentences without actually answering my question. Why does it matter--to you--whether Coulter is wrong or right? Why does it matter--to you--how the universe came into being?
And don't just write some pat answer about not wanting to be "intellectually vacuous." I really want to know why you think this is so important.
Sun Aug 06, 02:25:00 PM 2006
Iznmoneak said...
I thank you for your response as well. The SAB discussion board is a better place for these discussions than a single threaded anonymous blog. Someone can easily impersonate you (and me) on the blog. I will continue to update the posts at the SAB discussion board and this will be my last link from the blog. I encourage you to register with EZboard (it's free) and continue this discussion at the SAB discussion board. Please note that Steve Wells, the author of this blog, is also the owner of the SAB discussion board.
The response can be found here: http://p089.ezboard.com/fsabdiscussionboardgeneral.showMessage?topicID=4630.topic&index=13
Tue Aug 08, 04:38:00 PM 2006
cyborg said...
"I'm skeptical that the intricacy of the universe could have come about without intelligent design,"
Why? It seems far more reasonable to have a universe with a simple concept behind its creation rather than one which has a concept behind it that is more complex than anything found in it. That sort of logic would seem to imply you can't have anything simple unless something more complex was there first. That would be much like the universe requiring the watch before cogs could be built.
Wed Aug 09, 10:12:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
Drummond shows Brady a fossil of a fish in a rock said to be millions of years old.
Brady: (paraphrasing) I am more interested in the Rock of Ages than the age of rocks.
Mon Jan 29, 06:57:00 PM 2007
Saadaya said...
Ann Coulter is a bony fucking moron.
Wed May 16, 11:26:00 AM 2007
Daniel said...
lol
I read two answers from that interview and couldn't go on. She didn't even answer the questions, just spit out some misdirection.
Sat Jun 28, 08:29:00 PM 2008
Mike said...
Funnily enough last Saturday night I was in conversation with a deeply religious mate about our different approaches to scripture ever since we were kids. I brought up the whole who the fuck did Cain marry if there was only Adam, Eve and him as living humans and then onto quite a few other contradictions or blatantly odious references and story-lines in the Bible (Lot and his daughters; the flood; Abraham and Isaac; the Levite and his concubine etc etc). We have done this quite a few times over the years but it seemed that this was finally the moment where he had to admit with touching honesty that he didn't understand science, didn't understand history and didn't even understand scripture as he had never read it objectively.
To be fair I have worked with qualified scientists that didn't understand science!
Tue Dec 16, 10:27:00 PM 2008
damian said...
"He also didn't "cause" unicorns"
I thought he was supposed to be a creationist Christian. The Bible has unicorns. He believed that god created everything. Thus he should think that god caused unicorns. It is pathetic how little the majority of Christians know about there own religion...
Wed Jun 16, 12:28:00 PM 2010
damian said...
"He also didn't "cause" unicorns"
I thought this guy was supposed to be a creationist Christian. The Bible has unicorns, and if there is not evolution then according to him god "caused" unicorns. It is pathetic how little Christians know about there own religion.
Wed Jun 16, 12:30:00 PM 2010
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
29 July 2006Ann Coulter: Jesus was a godless liberal
On MSNBC's Hardball, Ann Coulter said:
...generally the liberal idea is to be nice to your enemies, punish your friends. No, I think you should punish your enemies and be nice to your friends.
Well, I'm not sure if this is a liberal idea or not, but, if you believe the gospels anyway, it was definitely one of Jesus'.
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you. -- Matthew 5:44
But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you. -- Luke 6:27
But love ye your enemies, and do good. -- Luke 6:35
Maybe Jesus founded not only the Catholic Church, but the godless Church of Liberalism as well.
Posted by Steve Wells at 7/29/2006 10:29:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
5 comments:
Brucker said...
It seems clear that Coulter is against "Godlessness", but "not particularly interested in the details".
Thu Aug 03, 11:32:00 AM 2006
? said...
She couldn't find anyplace where Jesus said hate your friends. She didn't have to: If you don't love your friends, what makes them your friends? Loving friends is easy. You have to work at loving your enemies. The recurring message in the verses she quoted is "do good", despite what others do to you. So her argument, as presented in this blog, makes no sense at all. I didn't see the show, only what you took from it, and if that's the best she came up with, it's not worth hearing the rest.
Mon Sep 04, 10:40:00 AM 2006
CrownRightsPatriot said...
Thank you, Steve, for exposing this vile woman for the criminal she really is. God hates Ann Coulter.
Mon Feb 19, 03:20:00 PM 2007
Sydney said...
Yeah. About that. Coulter and Jesus. Not much in common.
Tue Mar 06, 08:57:00 PM 2007
Rohit said...
I think Coulter is wrong, but those who quote Jesus against her should remember that if you take Jesus seriously, you are NOT ALLOWED TO HATE COULTER.
Thu Mar 20, 07:51:00 AM 2008
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
28 July 2006Ann Coulter's favorite Bible verses
In a recent post, I suggested that hard core Christians hate the good stuff in the Bible. Well Ann Coulter is a hard core Christian. Here are her favorite verses. (Beliefnet interview)
Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known. What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops. And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. -- Matthew 10:26-28
Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. -- Matthew 10:32-33
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. -- Matthew 10:22
If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. -- John 15:18
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. -- Revelation 14:9-11
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. -- Matthew 10:34
It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. -- Revelation 21:6
Here's how I've classified Ann's favorite verses at the SAB. verse category
Matthew 10:26 cruelty, injustice
Matthew 10:32-33 injustice, intolerance, absurdity
Matthew 10:22 contradiction
John 15:18 contradiction
Revelation 14:9-11 cruelty, intolerance, injustice
Matthew 10:34 family values, injustice, cruelty, intolerance
Revelation 21:6 none
Not a good verse among them.
Posted by Steve Wells at 7/28/2006 10:53:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
14 comments:
Anonymous said...
I have never heard such nonsense. The idiotic rambings of someone who is already biased against the Bible, who is trying to interpret its meaning. You are an utter fool.
Mon Aug 28, 02:34:00 AM 2006
PRODOS said...
Good morning.
I'm an atheist.
I've recently been researching Matthew 10:34 as part of a wider study looking into the advocacy of violence by religions.
Focuing in particular on Islam and Christianity.
Last night I recorded an interview for my podcast show with Dr Mark Durie, an Anglican mininister here in Melbourne, Australia.
The interview isn't online yet. It should be up in a couple of days.
I'd contacted Dr Durie after reading his article in The Australian called Islam: Creed of the Sword
In that article he wrote:
At one point Christ says: "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." (Matthew 10:34)
This is sometimes cited as evidence for Jesus' militancy, but the statement occurs in an extended passage where Jesus is advising his disciples on the inevitability of persecution.
The sword he refers to is the one that will be raised against them.
Among many other sources which present this interpretation is a section of THIS Wikipedia entry.
Read especially under the heading "Predicting Violence".
Anyway, my personal conclusion on Matthew 10:34 is that it is NOT clear that this is an advocacy to violence.
Thanks.
Best Wishes,
PRODOS
Sun Oct 01, 04:47:00 PM 2006
PRODOS said...
Howdy!
One more thing, "Anonymous", wrote:
I have never heard such nonsense. The idiotic rambings of someone who is already biased against the Bible, who is trying to interpret its meaning. You are an utter fool.
This sort of approach is not helpful. It doesn't further debate and exploration. It's dumb. It's "idiotic rambling".
I've spent quite a bit of time studying Skeptics's Annotated Bible and its related sites, and I think it is an excellent study tool.
OF COURSE, many of us are "biased against the Bible"!
What exactly is wrong with that?
It's not as if it's a self-evident document.
Even some Christians, for instance, understand passages such as Matthew 10:34 to be justifications for the use of violence to promote Christianity - at least in some circumstance.
And there are many examples across history where Christians HAVE resorted to violence and claimed the Bible justified their actions.
I doubt Jesus would have replied in the manner that "Anonymous" has replied.
Maybe "Anonymous" needs to re-read his Bible?
Good on you Steve Wells! Keep up the good work, mate!
Best Wishes,
PRODOS
Melbourne, Australia.
Sun Oct 01, 05:17:00 PM 2006
Aaron Nixon said...
Why is it that everyone that calls you an utter fool or wishes to counter your entries uses ad-hominem and suiting that your bias is not logically founded without an argument to the otherwise?
And as a bonus question, why are they always anonymous, are Christians born without balls these days?
Mon Oct 23, 03:29:00 PM 2006
Sydney said...
Why do people trying to make a point post anonymously?
here are some nice meditative verses for Ann.
Judge not lest ye be judged.
Suffer the children to come unto me.
Feed my sheep.
This is my commandment that ye love one another, that your joy may be full.
Try not to say the word faggot so much in political speeches...
Oh wait, I made that last one up.
Tue Mar 06, 09:04:00 PM 2007
Anonymous said...
John 15:18 - you've mentioned there "interpretation", not "contradiction"
Wed Mar 07, 12:07:00 PM 2007
Aaron Kinney said...
I have never heard such nonsense. The idiotic rambings of someone who is already biased against the Bible, who is trying to interpret its meaning. You are an utter fool.
With this logic, it is fair to say that a Christian has no qualifications to comment on the legitimacy of the atheistic worldview because the Christian is biased against it from the start and therefore would a priori be attempting to misinterpret everything that atheism has to say.
This logic could also be used to claim that a conservative has no justification for commenting on liberal politics, or that a Catholic has no justification for commenting on the merits of Protestantism, etc.
Anonymous is an utter fool.
Fri Apr 20, 08:16:00 PM 2007
Benjaman said...
Although I agree with Aaron Nixon about anonymous having no argument and arguing ad hominem, Aaron also resorts to an ad hominem argument by claiming that Christians have no balls. What does that have to do with an argument? Can those without balls not put forth an argument? Aaron therefore becomes a hypocrit. Furthermore, if you believe that Christianity is a religion that promotes violence, perhaps you should read just a little earlier in Matthew. The Sermon on the Mount starts in Matthew 5. Unfortunately, most don't want to read that part of the Bible or follow it, so it makes Christians look like they're violent crazies like Ann Coulter.
Thanks,
Ben
Thu Jul 05, 06:41:00 AM 2007
Benjaman said...
By the way...Ann Coulter is not a Christian, just another Republican using Christianity to further the goals of Corporate Fascism.
Thu Jul 05, 06:48:00 AM 2007
Lynn said...
I am a Christian, and I believe in God. When I study the Bible, pray or meditate, I seek God. I don't pray to things of this world, like celebrities, to seek God. I go to God alone. In my opinion, the representation of Ann Coulter, and other people's faith, is no different than the opposition and controversy experienced when Jesus walked the earth. People doubted God would bring together a simple fisherman, a zealot and a tax collector for a holy purpose. That God would minister to children & people society spit upon. That God would walk among us in the flesh. But God did ALL of this and more. God can do anything but fail. Humans have doubts, disbelief and questions. Faith asks us to "raise a sword"--to battle that which holds us back, by calling on God to
work in our hearts & minds. You have started your journey in faith and I hope it will lead you closer to God...to go beyond what is in this world, and to pierce through all that is holding you back, so you can experience the love, mercy, compassion, wisdom and goodness that truly is what God wants for you.
Blessings!
Ephesians 1:16-21, "I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come."
Mon Jan 14, 11:26:00 PM 2008
Aquaria said...
Lynn:
Was there a point to any of what you said? Any at all?
Surely by now you realize that this is NOT a site about a "path to God" or however you put it. Quite the opposite. Maybe you realize that now. Just in case, though, here's some information in exchange for yours, since turnaround is fair play, quid pro quo and all that:
"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence" -Christopher Hitchens
You don't have any evidence for your God, and good luck finding any.
Thanks for playing.
Thu Apr 24, 01:58:00 PM 2008
tim said...
im in awe! you do realize it takes more faith to be an athiest, dont you? the wonders of your godless world, and all the amazing coincidences throughout time and completing this wondrous world we live on. just a bang and a organism is all it took to create atheism, hmmm boy you sure you dont have a god that created your amazing atheistic chain of events and perfect conditions to sustain an atheist? ill tell you what , while you are searching for that perfect reason to believe your miraculous chain of fantastic events ill loan you my god in heaven so you will find peace while you are looking for your answers. he will be patient and faithfull if you ask him! god bless!
Fri Feb 20, 10:53:00 PM 2009
Xoid said...
Timmy, Timmy, Timmy. Faith? You need faith to believe that you exist? You also seem blissfully unaware that atheism is the lack of belief in gods, not the presence of disbelief.
Mon May 11, 06:16:00 AM 2009
Hume said...
Aquaria-- I have very little evidence for the existence of Christopher Hitchens. As a matter of fact, his existence would be inconvenient for me, so I prefer not to believe in him.
Thanks for playing.
Tue Dec 01, 11:49:00 PM 2009
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
28 July 2006The Irish Psalter: Open to Psalm 84 (Not 83)
A few days ago, an early medieval psalter was found in an Irish bog. It was reported to have been open to Psalm 83, which apparently it was. The hard core Christians went wild.
But it was Psalm 83 of the Latin Vulgate Bible, not of the Protestant versions (such as the KJV or NIV), which number the Psalms differently. Psalm 83 of the Vulgate is Psalm 84 of the King James.
What a difference a chapter can make!
Psalm 83 (of the KJV) contains these verses.
For, lo, thine enemies make a tumult: and they that hate thee have lifted up the head. They have taken crafty counsel against thy people, and consulted against thy hidden ones. They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.
What a fine coincidence it was, too -- a clear message from God about the end times to come. Here's how the excited and credulous "Live From" CNN host, Kyra Phillips, introduces the topic.
So dig this. A man was bulldozing a bog in central Ireland the other day when he noticed something unusual in the freshly turned soil. Turns out he'd unearthed an early medieval treasure: an ancient book of Psalms that experts date to the years 800 to 1000. Experts say it will take years of painstaking work to document and preserve this book, but eventually it will go on public display.
Now here's the kicker. The book, about 20 pages of Latin script, was allegedly found opened to Psalm 83. Now, if you're a scholar, as you know, Psalm 83: "God hears complaints that other nations are plotting to wipe out the name of Israel."
But shucks! It wasn't Psalm 83 after all, but the very boring Psalm 84. Here is the verse (7) that the Psalter was open to.
Transeuntes in valle fletus fontem ponent eam (In the vale of tears, in the place which he hath set.)
But don't despair, hard core Christians. There is still a way to interpret this verse as a warning from God about the coming destruction. It's all laid out clearly in Hot Air.
Posted by Steve Wells at 7/28/2006 12:40:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
3 comments:
Anonymous said...
It's quite sad and just plain pathetic that people would get so excited about the end of the world. Clearly, they place no value on life, but that is a typical Christian trait. If fundi Christians ruled the world, they'd start off world war three for the sole purpose of bringing about the apocalypse. These people are dangerous and deluded; they are terrorists in the making, and we must all unite against their disgusting, propaganda filth to protect ourselves. All statesmen and politicians with ANY religious affiliation should be STRIPPED of their titles IMMEDIATELY and kicked out of office pending a heavy fine. Likewise, all churches should be taxed heavily and the Vatican should be made subject to E.U. rule. Unless of course you fancy theocratic dictatorships such as those all throughout history which burned homosexuals at the stake, beat up children and treated women as slaves, and the same types of theocratic dictatorships still in Africa and the Middle East.
Sun Jul 30, 11:35:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
It's not that we don't fear death nor the future, that we don't value life itself.
Take a look around you and see how Christians live, we try to live in harmony with nature and respect all other people. What makes you think we would start a war?
Bless you.
Mon Aug 07, 12:12:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
Regardless of the ancient page found opened. Regarless of what Christians say. There is no other book (like the Bible) that tells the future of a nation (and nations) before hand with such authority. Israel is the only nation I know of that has been dead and gone for 2000 years and then came back to life just as predicted in Ezekiel 37 (written 571 BC). In addition to resurecting a whole nation, their language, writting and culture have been brought back to life. You may not like the supernatural starring you in the face every day as it leaps off the front page of your news paper but fasten your seat belt because more confirmation is on the way!
Sun Aug 13, 01:50:00 PM 2006
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
27 July 2006Bad Books of the Bible
You'd think that "The Good Book" wouldn't have much bad stuff in it. But nearly half (27/66) of the Bible's books have nothing good in them, at least as far as I can see. From Genesis to Revelation, the Bible includes some of the worst stuff in all literature, with 27 books that have not a single piece of useful moral (or any other kind of) advice.
Here's my list of the Bible's bad books:
Genesis
Numbers
Joshua
Judges
Ruth
1 Samuel
2 Samuel
1 Kings
2 Kings
1 Chronicles
2 Chronicles
Ezra
Nehemiah
Esther
Song of Solomon
Lamentations
Daniel
Joel
Obadiah
Jonah
Nahum
Habakkuk
Zephaniah
Haggai
2 Thessalonians
Philemon
Revelation
(Let me know if you can find something good in them. If you can convince me, I'll add the verses to the good stuff and remove the book from the bad book list.)
Posted by Steve Wells at 7/27/2006 05:57:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
16 comments:
Anonymous said...
It's interesting to note that most of the bad books mentioned are from the Old Testament. But, yes, I see your point; absolutely riddled with xenophobia, threats and propaganda.
Some of the mythology mentioned (for example, Ezekiel and Isiah on seeing celestial beings and God himself) are interesting.
There's very strong nationalist themes too, which border on being militant.
For maintaining social order, it might have been good more than 20 centuries ago, but it's not really compatible with today's values.
Fri Jul 28, 04:19:00 AM 2006
Brucker said...
As I might have said in my post today (and if I didn't, I was thinking it) what is "good" to a believer is different to an unbeliever. For instance, most believers in the Bible are highly inspired by the words of the men in Daniel 3:16-18 as a show of great faith.
Also, your idea of what is "good" may be colored by other issues you have not stated. Why not qualify Revelation 21:4 as "good"? It looks good to me, but it may be that you don't like the larger context in which the statement is made.
A believer no doubt can find something good in every book of the Bible (possibly Judges being an exception), but it's a matter of opinion, isn't it? Can the challenge be worded more precisely?
Fri Jul 28, 11:00:00 AM 2006
Steve Wells said...
"what is "good" to a believer is different to an unbeliever."
That's true, Brucker. But Revelation 21:4 is a false promise and cruel lie if there is no life after death. So I don't consider it good. (I should probably mark it somehow, but I'm not sure what category to put it in.)
But I think we can both agree that Leviticus 19:18 and 1 Thessalonians 5:21 are good. We should love others and seek the truth.
That's the type of thing I am looking for in the "good stuff." Ideas that any decent person, regardless of his or her belief system, would recognize as good.
Fri Jul 28, 11:27:00 AM 2006
Brucker said...
Yes, as I think I was trying to imply in both those cases, those are things that are good only if what they stand for is true. If not, one becomes foolishness, the other becomes a "cruel lie".
But still, I think there is so much that depends on a personal point of view here. Case in point, as I mentioned in my post the other day, there are people who believe ordering others to "not commit adultery" is unfairly limiting of our personal freedoms. You do make the choice to mark it as "good" nonetheless.
There's a lot of grey area. If not committing adultery is a good thing, then perhaps it's a good thing that Jacob didn't simply divorce Leah when he realized he'd been tricked into marrying her.
Isn't just about the entire Song of Solomon good because it's a love letter from a man to his wife? Even though an unbeliever may scoff at Daniel's devotion to his (supposedly false) religion, I've always thought it admirable that Daniel serves his Babylonian and Persian masters faithfully even though he doesn't like their beliefs.
In 2Sam. 9, one of David's first acts after becoming King of Israel is to see to it that the family of deposed King Saul is taken care of, especially Saul's crippled grandson, Mephibosheth.
I don't think I buy your statement about Ruth. It is a very nice story about a man who saves two widows from a life of poverty. Ruth decides to not abandon her mother-in-law (1:16), the story illustrates the Israelite custom of leaving gleanings which you called good in Leviticus (2:2), we see Boaz going above and beyond the call in this matter ((2:15), what you seem to mark as bad in verse 4:11 is a matter of custom not that he buys her like a slave, but that he pays off her family's debt as is required by Jewish law before she marry him.
One more thing that I think a non-believer especially would find good is the letter to the Laodiceans in the book of Revelation, which many fundamentalist Biblical scholars have interpreted as a prophetic chewing out of the modern-era churches, telling them that they are all a bunch of hypocrites and care more about having material goods than having Jesus in their lives.
Fri Jul 28, 07:37:00 PM 2006
Karn said...
Nothing good in the Song of Solomon? What! Isn't that the book about sex?
Tue Aug 15, 06:02:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Just realize that the Bible in its current form was made fairly long ago by a comission from king james. (i think). They decided what should be put in and what shouldn't, especially with regards to the new testament.
Thu Aug 24, 07:34:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
The site is put together very nicely--kudos. I am a Catholic (I know) and I find that a lot of what you use to support why Christianity is "wrong" is...wrong. Part of this is because a lot of your quotes seem to come out a King James based or more modern based/English based text. A lot of ideas, concepts and phrases are misinterpreted when reading these. The King James version is so heavily edited, I find it blashpemous and wrong. Mind you I am both Irish and Catholic (again, I know) but the King James bible is just wrong. However, I whole-heartidly agree with you on many things. I find it funny how so many Christians hate all other people. When we are told to "love our brothers," that means all people. Love is blind to religion, race, nationality and in many cases even gender. I agree Christians always need to be ready to answer questions about their faith. I learned some latin and Hebrew (from a Jew) just so I could read a more original and truthful bible, it also helped me confirm my faith as a Catholic. Any referrence to dying should be thought of as good because that is when you leave your Earthly body to enter into God's Kingdom.
Sun Nov 05, 07:56:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Well, what version do you want him to use? Which is the one that Christians agree is the best? They don't.
Most modern versions are copyrighted and their terms of use prevent them from appearing on sites like the SAB. The KJV, though it has issues (I agree with you, and don't like it myself) is entirely in the public domain.
Tue Feb 27, 04:29:00 PM 2007
Anonymous said...
you link to http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/short.html, which contains some "bad" passages from Genesis 22. right after 22.10, an angel appears to Abraham and tells him NOT to kill his son. this should go on the "good" list.
Sun Apr 08, 10:30:00 AM 2007
DarkATi said...
The problem with this challenge, as stated previously, is that everyone's concept of "good" is different. "Good" is quite subjective.
But just for fun, here are some good things in a few of the books you have on the "Bad List":
Genesis 50:20 says, (my paraphrase) that what Joseph's brothers intended for evil (bad), God used for good, to save the lives of lots of people.
That even has the word good in it. Does saving thousands of people from famine qualify as good?
1 Samuel 26 tells the story of David sparing Saul's life, even though Saul was trying to kill him! Saul repents (at least for a short time) and stops pursuing David and they basically "make up". Good?
Zephaniah 3:17 says that God will rejoice over his people with songs of joy. That may not sound good to an unbeliever but how can you call it bad?
I'm sure I could find more but those are just a few quick ones that came to mind.
Cheers,
Cody
Thu Mar 06, 03:45:00 PM 2008
Ignatz Rabinowitz said...
I suppose it depends on how you define "Good." I mean, on the surface, Hamlet is a "Bad Book" in that it's got lots of murder, ilicit sex, conspiracy, and violence in it, and no real moral. Also, the story never happened.
So, all things being equal, it's bad, and it's definitely too long by half. However, all things are not equal, and things do not have to be literally true to have value. Just because the endless and boring geneologies in Numbers have no value to us doesn't mean they weren't important to the ancient Jews, and it seems a bit racist to me to declare that since something is useless to contemporary white (?) Americans, it must therefore always have been valueless.
Likewise, the extensive legal codes in Deuteronomy and Leviticus are boring and have no real value to us, but they were written as an administrative code for a priestly caste that no longer exists. So obviously they had value to them.
The historical books were written by and for a disposessed people who were desparately trying to hold on to their national identity while they were in captivity in a foreign land. Again, not strictly relevant to life today, I'll grant you, but it's interesting from a historical perspective, and saying "It's a bad book" is kinda' like saying "Black Americans shouldn't even pretend to have any interest in all that African mumbo-jumbo, it's all useless." Again, you're leaning towards racism here.
Sun Jul 20, 05:53:00 AM 2008
TimAtheist said...
I think you're dead-on. Those books are of no real practical use.
You'd think people had better things to do with their time that promote this stuff...
Mon Sep 07, 06:44:00 PM 2009
Republibot 3.0 said...
I think you could probably say the same thing about anyone's scripture, really, be it Hindu, Christian, Buddhist, Baha'I, Muslim, Sikh, you name it. But leaving aside the issue of whether or not any of these scriptures are TRUE or not, leaving aside the issue of whether there's actually a God or not, I think what you're overlooking is that even though they're not important to you, personally, as atheists, they ARE important to the people who believe them. This isn't something one should scorn. I know people who get a pick-me-up when they're down, and a sense of calm from reading Charles Dickens. Dickens isn't even remotely true, and he was wildly propagandistic in his own day, but it has moral value to a lot of people, despite the fact that it's full of ghosts and other such nonsense. So if Chuck can be allowed, despite being untrue, why can't the Bible or the Koran?
A very common culturally imperialist mistake people mistake is to think, "Since this has no value to me, it must have no value at all." That's simply not true. Stories, legends, religions have a great importance to any society irrespective of their literal truth or lack thereof.
Secondly, there's openly moral/ethical stuff ("Thou shalt not..") and then there's stuff that has no appaerent moral value on the surface, but does the deeper you look. For instance, Abraham's sacrifice of Isaac is vicious and cruel, and trying to figure out why God would require that, and why Abraham would go through with it (Or attempt to) has provided millenia of religious debate (My own theory is that it's God showing these people that He doesn't want human sacrifices). In this sense, scripture is interactive, it's not just rules, it's also trying to figure out 'why?' and 'what is this doing here?'
Finally, scripture always has and always will provide a cultural anchor for people, it helps them decide who they are in the context of a larger society and movement that's lasted for hundreds, or even thousands of years. No one still believes the moon is a giant calabash, but if you're African, you've heard the legends of that, and it's a common point of reference between yourself and others. You tell your kids the Calabash stories, not because they're true, but because they're fun and a part of your community, you know? They provide a sense of continuity.
So there's three reasons people promote this stuff, without even resorting to religious arguments.
Tue Sep 08, 06:34:00 AM 2009
Joe said...
Hi Steve. Regarding Thessalonians 2, I think there is actually one good stuff within. When Saul, at the end, says: "for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you; 3:8neither did we eat bread for nought at any man's hand, but in labor and travail, working night and day, that we might not burden any of you: 3:9not because we have not the right, but to make ourselves and ensample unto you, that ye should imitate us. 3:10For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, If any will not work, neither let him eat. 3:11For we hear of some that walk among you disorderly, that work not at all, but are busybodies. 3:12Now them that are such we command and exhort in the Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread. 3:13But ye, brethren, be not weary in well-doing. 3:14And if any man obeyeth not our word by this epistle, note that man, that ye have no company with him, to the end that he may be ashamed. 3:15And yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother. 3:16Now the Lord of peace himself give you peace at all times in all ways." (http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/2thessalonians-asv.html). Most of all to work everybody and to not exploit anybody: this is for sure a good thing.
Ciao.
Joe (from Italy)
Sun Dec 20, 05:56:00 PM 2009
Ramptor said...
Song of Solomon is a pretty lovely poem about sexual intercourse. One could argue that that is "good stuff."
Mon Jul 26, 09:44:00 PM 2010
Matthew said...
I am incredibly confused by your argument of "good" versus "bad."
When you say a book is not "good" what you're saying is the moral lesson of the book is too complicated to understand without some basic analysis. So naturally, this excludes much of the Jewish Books, which Christians omitted or considered heresy because they couldn't understand them either.
Song of Songs: Sex and Lovemaking: How to be a good spouse through romance. Nothing bad about that.
Book of Ruth: A story about tolerance, anti-racism and acceptance of those who are different.
Book of Esther: Queen Esther is the ultimate badass and helps prevent a Genocidal maniac from getting his way.
On top of all that, these books are female-centric and in their own ways are feminist for celebrating empowered female protagonists.
So lets see: Feminism, Healthy Sex, multicultural tolerance, and stopping genocide. What's wrong with all that? Nothing.
Sun Nov 27, 01:35:00 PM 2011
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
25 July 2006God is love: The most hated verse in the Bible
Have you ever noticed that hard core Christians don't much like the good stuff in the Bible? And they just can't stand the very best.
But the verse they hate most of all is 1 John 4:8.
He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
Because if God is love, what the hell is hell?
[It is interesting that Pope Benedict XVI's first encyclical is entitled Deus Caritas Est (God is Love). But then the hard core Christians that I'm talking about don't consider the Pope to be Christian.]
Posted by Steve Wells at 7/25/2006 09:51:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
7 comments:
Andrew of The Canadian Writers Collective said...
I'm enjoying your blog and your links very much. As a secular Canadian I get freaked out by the insanity going on in your part of the world, Steve. It's refreshing to come across challenge to the predominant right-wing Christian discourse.
Thu Jul 27, 04:37:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
What the hell is hell?
If you take into account the history of afterlife concepts and their evolution, then you realise that it is not to be taken literally. If anything, it's imagery. A state of mind that can only be described with images. An image constructed with the materials of many cultures. From Hades to Tartarus to Sheol to Gehenna.
I have a feeling that men tend to 'speak for God' more than we'd think. Perhaps it's my more inclusive mindset, but I don't agree with 90% of Christians. It makes me sad to even look back at my own life a couple years ago and to see that I was caught up in this church dogma.
-Joel-
Fri Jul 28, 12:29:00 PM 2006
Andrew said...
Hey,
I know this is very old but I have just come across it. As a christian I must disagree with you...I don't hate that verse at all. I love it. God is not a big fan of hell. He wants to redeem all people and all creation to himself. However that is not the path all take and there are still consequences some ultimate.
For example as a parent (if you are one) do you love your kids or as a society do we love our kids? obviously we do! However If they reject us and the things we teach are there not consequeses? God continues to pursue all people much like you or I would as parents however in the end justice as well as the natural course of action unfolds.
God is holy (set apart) and unless we accept Jesus we are unclean and must be seperated from him. That's why he created a new system to save us! I hope this doesn't just sound like christian retoric (did I spell that wrong?) but an attempt to explain the truth in a short comment.
Thanks
Fri Mar 30, 11:56:00 AM 2007
Brandy Miller said...
Because God is love, Hell exists. Let me explain:
God is love. Love, however, is not license. Love has very specific requirements in order for it to be genuine love. 1 Corinthians 13:4-7 describes perfect love: "Love is patient, love is kind. Love does not envy, it is not perverse, it is not puffed up, it is not ambitious and is not self-serving, it is slow to anger, and does not think evil, it does not rejoice in lies or injustice, but rejoices in the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
Now, because God is Love and Love does not insist on having its own way, God allows us to choose to reject love. If we, by our choices, reject love our ability to experience love and to show love grows less and less and eventually fades altogether. Every action we take which hurts someone else reduces our ability to empathize and thus to feel love. When we have a reduced ability to feel love, we also have a reduced ability to express love. Love still exists, it is still available to us, but we are unable to feel it or to take advantage of it.
Now, when someone has lived their entire life rejecting love and becomes so blind to it and so deaf to it and so unable to express love to others, it is impossible for them to find love after death. That's hell. God is still there with them, but they are unable to see, hear, or respond to him. Human beings need and crave love, but these people have become blind to it and deaf to it and so they crave it but are unable to find it, they have become twisted inside and would only hurt other people if given the opportunity. In order to protect those who have learned how to love, God allows those who have chosen not to love to be set apart from the rest.
Fri May 16, 02:30:00 PM 2008
Adrianne said...
I have yet to find a Christian (and I am one and associate with Christians all the time) who hates this verse.
Have you read Jonathan Edwards' unpublished essay on the trinitarian nature of God? He delves long and deep into the "God is love" verse, waxing eloquent on all the wonderful philosphical and theological revelations those three words make.
Have you ever read the other essays written by other Christians based off Edwards' essay?
Have you ever read anything about that verse by A.W. Tozer?
Or perhaps by John Eldridge (he's modern)?
Have you not seen it written on banners, posted above doorways, and written on Christian plates, shirts, and so on?
Come on! You can't really say that Christians hate that verse. I know I sure don't.
Tue Apr 14, 05:21:00 PM 2009
syinly said...
I was researching love because I had discussion about it with my ex-husband. I know from reading christian blog and dealing with my behavior as christian I don't show love enough. I say stupid things and show a lot of intolerance. That's not what the Bible teachings me. Thank you for making me examine myself.
Thu Oct 22, 05:14:00 AM 2009
stavros said...
Just a note: In Eastern Orthodox Christianity, the fact that God is Love is completely compatible with hell, because hell is seen not as some literal place of punishment, but as the awful, agonizing condition of a soul in the very presence of Love. For the saints, that presence is heaven, but for those mired in self-indulgence, greed, and having cold-hearts, the presence of God will be like hell.
Sat Jan 08, 07:50:00 AM 2011
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
25 July 2006The Whole Message of the Bible
I'm having an email discussion with a creationist physics professor who keeps telling me that "the Bible says everywhere" this and that "the whole message of the Bible is" that.
But the Bible has no "whole message" and it says absolutely nothing "everywhere". It is the most inconsistent book ever written.
But that's not surprising since it's not a book, but a collection of books written by many (mostly unknown) authors over a period of 1000 years or so. The Bible teaches nothing consistently throughout. Pick any topic and the Bible will say one thing one place and another in another.
Posted by Steve Wells at 7/25/2006 07:14:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
3 comments:
Anonymous said...
Nothing turns believers into atheists quicker than an actual reading of the bible. It's an obscene book about an obscene little tyrant of a god.
There is good reason for the catholics not reading it.
Fri Aug 25, 09:55:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
i agree except the reading of the bible did not turn me into an atheist. rather, it showed me the "christian god" is not a good picture as to how i think god to be. the god if the bible seems to be very much a lunatic. though i am certain, through what science has taught me, that there is a god or higher being of conciousness, after 18 years of being a christian the bible finally turned me against christianity, but not against the concept of god.
Tue Aug 29, 12:43:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
I agree. I think the Bible is the worst place where you could search for "enlightement"... but I do feel a spiritual connection to things, and Life. I just don't agree with the depiction of God made in the Bible. I really feel a sympathetic cord with Neale Donald Walsch's "Conversations with God", though. To me, I feel that his books have a better picture of what god should be like...
Thu Sep 14, 08:58:00 AM 2006
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
24 July 2006The Ten Commandments: Paul couldn't name them all either
Last month on the Colbert Report, Rep. Lynn Westmoreland (co-sponsor of a bill requiring the display of the Ten Commandments) couldn't name them. Which, as I noted in a previous post, is no big deal since Jesus couldn't name them all either.
And neither, apparently, could Paul. Here's what he said about them in Romans.
Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Romans 13:9
So Paul listed only five, and then (like Jesus), threw in one that isn't in the Big Ten. And notice again that only the secular commandments are listed. Nothing about which god to worship, making images, the Sabbath, or taking God's name in vain.
So maybe there are only five or six commandments. If so, Westmorland (according to his office) did better than Jesus or Paul! Congratulations Lynn. You're a Peach.
Posted by Steve Wells at 7/24/2006 09:59:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
3 comments:
Bacon Eating Atheist Jew said...
George Carlin has it down to 2 commandments.
Check this out. The first video is very funny but the google on scroll down a bit talks about the commandments.
Very funny stuff.
Tue Jul 25, 12:19:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Insightful post, Steve. - Ba`al
Tue Jul 25, 12:20:00 PM 2006
Jesus Lied For You said...
Paul couldn't name them all because there were more than 10 given. This ought to be included in the contradiction section of the SAB.
Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:2-17)
1) I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me.
2) Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
3) Remember thou keep the Sabbath Day.
4) Honor thy Father and thy Mother.
5) Thou shalt not kill.
6) Thou shalt not commit adultery.
7) Thou shalt not steal.
8) Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
9) Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife.
10) Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's goods.
Ten Commandments (Exodus 34:14-26)
1) Thou shalt worship no other God.
2) Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.
3) The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep.
4) Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest.
5) Thou shalt observe the feast of weeks.
6) Thrice in the year shall all your menchildren appear before the Lord God.
7) Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven.
8) Neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left until the morning.
9) The first of the firstfruits of thy land shalt thou bring unto the house of the Lord thy God.
10) Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.
Sun Sep 17, 05:30:00 PM 2006
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
21 July 2006The Root Cause of the Problem
In a briefing to Congress on the recent G8 summit, President Bush said
Everybody abhors the loss of innocent life. On the other hand, what we recognize is that the root cause of the problem is Hezbollah.
But the root cause is not Hezbollah, or Syria, Iran, or even Israel. The root cause is religion.
Three incompatible and mutually exclusive religions (Islam, Judaism, and Christianity) fight each other, basing their beliefs upon two of the world's most violent books (the Bible and the Quran). A more perfect recipe for mutually assured destruction could not be found.
When people of Israel, Lebanon, the Middle East, and the world no longer believe in (or pretend to believe in) the Bible and the Quran, there will be hope for peace. Religious belief is the root cause of the problem, and until it is addressed there will be no peace in the region -- or in the world.
Posted by Steve Wells at 7/21/2006 07:08:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
5 comments:
Bacon Eating Atheist Jew said...
There won't be peace until the Muslims stop believing.
Israel is 25% Atheist, Herzl was an Atheist. It is simply a final refuge for Jews to go to excape Jew haters, who usually hate Jews because of ethnicity not religion.
Sat Jul 22, 06:08:00 PM 2006
Steve Wells said...
"Israel is 25% Atheist"
What about the other 75%? When they become bacon-eating atheist Jews, there might be a chance for peace.
(Unless they also believe that God gave them the land of Israel, in which case we may have to wait until they are all just bacon-eating atheists.)
Sun Jul 23, 10:24:00 AM 2006
Yahzi said...
I have to disagree, slightly. Even religion is not the root: it is merely the stump.
The root is [i]fantasy[/i]; the inability to tell the difference between what is in your head and what is in the world.
As long as people are more interested in themselves than they are in others, as long as they are willing to settle for amazing fantasies instead of mundane realities, they will act in ways that no rational person can understand.
Here is a link to an article that explains what I mean:
http://www.policyreview.org/AUG02/harris.html
The problem is, quite simply, childishness; and the solution is growing up. Now if we could just find a way for society to reward grownups, instead of pandering to children...
Mon Jul 24, 12:50:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
A fine place the Jews have found to escape Jew haters! I'm sure religion had nothing to do with it...
Tue Sep 19, 08:21:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
I knew this second gulf war had turned into "the big lie" (did you know that most of the army soldiers returning to the states from the front lines in rotation now quietly call it that?) when our lower ranking officers stopped calling this a war to stop the Saddamists and their WMD's -- of which these WMD's were never found by any of us yet, then they started calling this a war of our manifest destiny to put American democracy in place where there was none -- and later they started calling this a war of religion, of righteous moral Christians versus the wrongheaded religion of Moslems and their 17 virgins they plan to enjoy up in heaven after they croak in battle. What struck me is there is a disconnect from their judgmental morality and the actual reality of the people dying around us in Baghdad because stereotypical Shiites named Ali hate all Sunnis named Omar, and vice versa, because they differ on their interpretation of ...whatever!
Mon Nov 13, 06:45:00 AM 2006
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
20 July 2006Forget Amalek: What the Bible really says about fighting terrorism
Rabbi Gellman has a new article in Newsweek (Remember Amalek: What the Bible says about fighting terrorism). He begins by saying:
The Bible is the greatest collection of books, and I believe it to be the complex but discernable word of God.
Well the Bible is one of the three worst books I've ever read (the others are the Quran and the Book of Mormon). And I sure as hell wouldn't blame its contents on God.
Next he tells us that we must be careful when we interpret the Bible, because the Bible can be used to justify anything. To prove it, he uses the Bible to justify Bush's war on terror.
The key to it all, he says, is Amalek.
In Deut. 25:17-19 we read: “Remember what Amalek did unto thee by the way, when ye were come forth out of Egypt; How he met thee by the way, and smote the hindmost of thee, even all that were feeble behind thee, when thou wast faint and weary; and he feared not God. Therefore it shall be, when the Lord thy God hath given thee rest from all thine enemies round about, in the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance to possess it, that thou shalt blot out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven; thou shalt not forget it.”
God didn't like Amalek's tactics: he attacked the Israelites from behind when they were "faint an weary; and he feared not God." Or as Rabbi Gelman puts it:
This meant that his [Amalek's] soldiers could kill women and children, the elderly and the infirm and in so doing avoid engagement with the soldiers at the front. In this way he could produce maximum carnage and maximum terror. The moral problem the Bible addresses is that this is not warfare, it is the slaughter of innocents—it is terrorism.
So Amalek, according to the Rabbi, was a terrorist. And that's why God hated him so much. And we must hate him too, just as much and forever.
Indeed our remembrance of Amalek is combined with a chilling pledge from God that is also unique in the Bible: “The Lord will have war with Amalek from generation to generation” (Exod. 17:16). Our enemies are just our enemies except if our enemy is Amalek. In that case our enemy is also the enemy of God. Amalek thus becomes the symbol of terrorism in every generation. ... Yes, one can disagree and debate how Amalek must be fought, but not that Amalek must be fought.
But Gellman has it exactly backwards here. We might not know for sure who God thinks Amalek is these days (Amalek's descendents, terrorists, Muslims, Republicans, Knicks fans, etc.), but there can be no debate about what we must do to them whenever and wherever we find them. God made that clear in the Rabbi's favorite book.
Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. -- 1 Samuel 15:2-3
Now this was a direct command given by God to King Saul several hundred years after Amalek died. (Saul lost his kingdom because he failed to kill everyone as God commanded.) And, as the rabbi pointed out, the instructions still apply today (see Exod. 17:16). So if you think today's Amalekites are terrorists (as Rabbi Gellman does), then you must kill them all -- the terrorists, their families, and their neighbors -- every man, woman, infant, suckling, ox, sheep, camel, and ass.
According to Rabbi Gellman, the difference between us and Amalek is "that our victims were killed by mistake and Amalek's victims were killed by design." But the Bible God doesn't quite see it that way. We must kill them all -- innocent or guilty, young or old, women, children, babies, even their animals.
Gellman ends by endorsing "the message from our president: victory is the only way."
In my heart and prayers, I thank President Bush for remembering Amalek. ... [T]his is a war against a lover of slaughter.
There is no greater "lover of slaughter" than the God of the Bible. Bush should reject his evil commands to kill innocent people.
It's time to finally forget Amalek.
Posted by Steve Wells at 7/20/2006 08:15:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
1 comment:
Tim said...
"this is not warfare, it is the slaughter of innocents—it is terrorism"
I think he summed up the entire Old Testament right there.
Sun Apr 17, 09:25:00 AM 2011
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
19 July 2006For thy pleasure they were created
The Intelligent Design movement has its own wedge issue: natural evil. Its existence is hard to deny, but what do you do with it? If cruelty is designed into creation, then how can the creator be good?
Most IDers solve this problem by shifting the blame from the designer to humans or demons -- anything but God. But of course that's cheating. We should clearly see the existence and nature of God from his creation. After all, Paul says we're going to hell if we don't.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse. -- Romans 1:20
There are a few Christians, though, that take God at his word. He is, after all, the proud creator of evil.
I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. -- Isaiah 45:6-7
He made predator and prey, host and parasite, and did it all for his own amusement.
The young lions roar after their prey, and seek their meat from God. -- Psalm 104:21
Thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. -- Revelation 4:11
An ASA article by David Snoke puts it this way:
God does claim direct responsibility for the creation of natural evil.... God neither apologizes for making these things, nor weeps over them -- he glories in them.
God didn't create a world full of misery to punish Adam and Eve, and the devil didn't make him do it. He did it because he wanted to. He just likes to watch things suffer.
Posted by Steve Wells at 7/19/2006 03:22:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
1 comment:
Jeremy said...
Just a note about translations - though the King James and a few other older translations render the passage from Isaiah as "I make peace, and create evil," most modern and more accurate translations render it as something to the effect of "I make success (prosperity) and create disaster (calamity)."
Most of the other passages you quote do not have quite the teeth you are endowing them with without this less accurate translation to go along with them.
Wed Mar 16, 01:42:00 AM 2011
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
18 July 2006Dembski's Defective Design Inference
To make us realize the full extent of human sin, God does not merely allow personal evils (i.e. the disordering of our souls and the sins we commit as a result) to run their course subsequent to the Fall. In addition, God allows natural evils (e.g. death, predation, parasitism, disease, drought, floods, famines, earthquakes, and hurricanes) to run their course prior to the Fall. Thus, God himself wills the disordering of creation, making it defective on purpose. William Dembski, The End of Christianity, p.145
Notice that according to Dembski, God purposefully designed the evils of the natural world, "making it defective on purpose."
What a valuable concept! Defective Design (DD)! It will be interesting to see how Dembski and others who believe in DD will incorporate it into their "design inference."
Posted by Steve Wells at 7/18/2006 08:22:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
1 comment:
Kimma said...
It should be quite obvious to anyoen that human's aren't intelligently designed. We have so many flaws it's ridiculous. If I was so foolish as to believe in ID, the fact that women have periods that last for DAYS would convince me otherwise.
Fri Jul 13, 12:32:00 AM 2007
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
18 July 2006Dembski's Theodicy: God's Preemptive War on Nature
The total amount of suffering per year in the natural world is beyond all decent contemplation. During the minute it takes me to compose this sentence, thousands of animals are being eaten alive; others are running for their lives, whimpering with fear; others are being slowly devoured from within by rasping parasites; thousands of all kinds are dying of starvation, thirst, and disease. It must be so. If there is ever a time of plenty, this very fact will automatically lead to an increase in population until the natural state of starvation and misery is restored. -- Richard Dawkins, River Out of Eden
In a previous post (Behold, it was very good 4 June 06) I listed five ways that Christians try to explain natural evil. Here's a summary:
The original creation was perfect and would have remained that way if Adam hadn't of sinned. But he did, so God changed everything. The natural world was good before Adam's fall, but worse after.
Death and suffering are all a part of God's grand design. Nature is red in tooth and claw because God likes it that way.
God's creation was perfectly benevolent, but then Satan snuck in and ruined everything.
God created the world, but he (she, it, them) can't control it. He didn't know how it would turn out and he is not responsible for it. He's just an innocent bystander.
Natural evil does not exist. Nature, like God and the Bible, is kind and gentle. (Ignore it when it appears otherwise.)
But William Dembski has come up with a whole new theory: God's preemptive war on nature. Here's how it goes (with quotes from Dembski's article).
God created the universe billions of years ago.
I accept standard astrophysical and geological dating (12 billion years for the universe, 4.5 billion years for the earth). -- p.15
It was screwed up from the start because God knew Adam would sin in the end.
God is able to act preemptively in the world, anticipating events and, in particular, human actions, thereby guiding creation along paths that God deems best. -- p. 32
God ... brings about natural evils (e.g., death, predation, parasitism, disease, drought, famines, earthquakes, and hurricanes), letting them run their course prior to the Fall. Thus, God himself disorders the creation, making it defective on purpose. --p.39, Dembki's emphasis
So for hundreds of millions of years, untold billions of sentient creatures were purposefully tormented by God. How can that be true, if God is good?
Well, it's all about us. We are all that God cares about. (J.B.S. Haldane was wrong about God; God doesn't give a shit about beetles.)
God's activity in creation is ... principally concerned with forming a universe that will serve as a home for humans. -- p.37
A world that exhibits natural evil becomes an instrument for revealing to us the gravity of sin. -- p.47
God, in his preemptive war on nature, has purposefully created elaborate methods for systematically tormenting animals. And he's been doing it for hundreds of millions of years while no one but him could watch. But he did it all just for us, to teach us a lesson about the gravity of sin. Kind of makes you feel warm all over, doesn't it?
Posted by Steve Wells at 7/18/2006 12:52:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
No comments:
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
07 July 2006Polygamy Quiz: Bible, Quran, or Book of Mormon?
Which books (Bible, Quran, and Book of Mormon) contain the following passages.
Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
Abijah waxed mighty, and married fourteen wives.
Marry of the women, who seem good to you, two or three or four.
If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish.
If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated....
Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none.
Thus saith the LORD ... I gave thee ... thy master's wives.
For behold, he did not keep the commandments of God, but ... he had many wives and concubines.
Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
And if ye wish to exchange one wife for another....
And the answers are ...
Posted by Steve Wells at 7/07/2006 09:23:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
5 comments:
Anonymous said...
OT: Very interesting Blog. Have you considered adding the Hadiths? It seems kind of odd to exclude them given their importance (for example to Islamic Jurisprudence).
Torah would be interesting too as I know it isn't just the Old Testament.
Tue Jul 18, 12:39:00 PM 2006
Steve Wells said...
Anonymous said... "Very interesting Blog. Have you considered adding the Hadiths?"
Yeah, that's a good idea, but I just don't have the time. With the Bible, Quran, and Book of Mormon, I already more than I can deal with adequately.
Tue Jul 18, 12:50:00 PM 2006
Brucker said...
Steve, I didn't realize you had a blog! I should have read your profile.
I got 50%, and was a bit surprised at some of the ones I got wrong. I was sure #4 was from the Quran, because somebody told me the other day that there was a verse from the Quran similar to that which had been used as the basis for outlawing polygamy in Morocco. I was also pretty sure that #8 was from the Bible, but oh, well.
Oh, and to "anonymous": Technically, the Torah is a subset of the Bible, specifically the first five books. You're probably thinking of the Talmud, which is Orthodox Rabbinical commentary on the Bible.
Tue Jul 18, 12:59:00 PM 2006
Honorary Arab said...
Asalamalaykom,
It's interesting how scholarly you men are discussing the very life we women are living.
Sun Aug 06, 10:37:00 PM 2006
jay c said...
I got most of them right. I missed #7 because I read it as "gathered thee" the first time instead of "gave thee."
I also just completed writing A Commentary on Marriage in the Bible, Volume 1: the Torah! Check it out if you're interested.
Wed Apr 22, 11:31:00 AM 2009
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
05 July 2006David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
It would be hard to find anyone in the bible that God liked more than David.
He was directly selected by God to be king, and "the Spirit of the Lord came upon David from that day forward."
And the LORD said, Arise, anoint him: for this is he. Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. 1 Sam.16:10-13
His heart "was perfect with the Lord" and "the Lord God of hosts was with him."
David ... grew great, and the LORD God of hosts was with him. 2 Sam.5:10
His [Solomon's] heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father. 1 Kg.11:4, 15:3
He walked in God's ways and kept his statutes.
And if thou wilt walk in my ways, to keep my statutes and my commandments, as thy father David did walk, then I will lengthen thy days. 1 Kg.3:14
And (with the exception of the matter of Uriah the Hitite) he did what was right in the eyes of the Lord in his every act throughout his lifetime.
Because David did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, and turned not aside from any thing that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite. 1 Kg.15:5
He was, according to Acts, a man after God's own heart.
And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the [son] of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. Acts 13:22 (See also 1 Sam.13:14)
So if we want to know what type of person God likes, we need only look at David. Those who believe in the bible should try hard to imitate David, to always ask themselves "What would David Do?" in any particular situation.
With that in mind, then, let's look at some of David's godly acts.
He kills Goliath with his sling, beheads him, and carries the head back to Jerusalem. 1 Sam.17:51-57
He and Saul have a contest to see who can kill the most people for God, and the women act as cheerleaders saying, "Saul has killed his thousands, and David his tens of thousands." 1 Sam.18:6-7
He kills 200 Philistines and brings their foreskins to Saul to buy his first wife (Saul's daughter Michal). 1 Sam.18:25-27
He acts like he's crazy, scribbles on the gates of Gath, and lets spit run down his beard. All this he did in front of Israel's enemies in the hopes that they would take him in and protect him from Saul. 1 Sam.21:12
He "inquired of the Lord, saying, Shall I go and smite these Philistines? And the Lord said unto David, Go, and smite the Philistines ... So David smote them with a great slaughter." 1 Sam.23:2-5
He vows to kill "any that pisseth against the wall." 1 Sam.25:22, 34
He "smote the land and left neither man nor woman alive." 1 Sam.27:8-11
He had many (like Joseph Smith, no one knows how many) wives. 1 Sam.30:5
He tells one of his "young men" to kill the Amalekite messenger who claimed to have mercifully killed Saul at Saul's own request. 2 Sam.1:15
When Joab (David's captain) kills Abner, David says that he and his kingdom are not responsible. The blame, he says, lays with Joab. So David curses Joab, his family, and their descendants forever. Let them all be plagued with venereal diseases and leprosy, starve to death, commit suicide, or lean on staves. 2 Sam.3:27-29
Some of David's men kill Saul's son and bring his head to David, thinking that he'll be pleased. But he wasn't. David has the assassins killed, their hands and feet chopped off, and their bodies hung up (for decorations?) over the pool in Hebron. 2 Sam.4:6-7
He says that whoever kills the lame and the blind will be his "chief and captain." 2 Sam.5:8
He asks God if he should kill some more Philistines. God says yes, and he'll even help. So David and God "smote the Philistines" again. 2 Sam.5:19, 25
He dances nearly naked in front of God and everybody. Michal criticizes him for it and Godpunishes her by having "no child unto the day of her death." 2 Sam.6:14, 20-22
He kills two thirds of the Moabites and makes the rest slaves. He also cripples the captured horses. 2 Sam.8:2-4
He kills and tortures thousands of people, "and the Lord preserved David withersoever he went." 2 Sam.8:6, 14
He sees a woman (Bathsheba) bathing and likes what he sees. so he sends for her and commits adultery with her "for she was purified from her uncleanness." She conceives and bears a son (which God later kills to punish David). 2 Sam.11:2-5
He tells Joab (his captain) to send Bathseba's husband (Uriah) to "the forefront of the hottest battle ... that he may be smitten and die." In this way, David gets another wife. 2 Sam.11:15, 17, 27 (This is the only thing he ever did wrong. Everything else was "right in the eyes of the Lord.")
He tortured or enslaved (depending on translation) the inhabitants of several cities. 2 Sam.12:31, 1 Chr.20:1-3
He shows unusual restraint and "went not in unto his concubines." Instead, he imprisons them as a punishment for being raped by David's son, Absalom. 2 Sam.20:3
To appease God and end the famine that was caused by his predecessor (Saul), David agrees to have seven of Saul's sons killed and hung up "unto the Lord." 2 Sam.21:6-9
Old King David tries to get some heat by having a beautiful virgin minister unto him. 1 Kg.1:1-4
In David's last words, he commands his son Solomon to murder Joab. 1 Kg.2:5-9
So if you believe and trust in the Bible, you should try to follow the example of David in everything you do. Just ask yourself in any situation, "What would David do?", and then do likewise. That way you can be sure to do (just like David did) "that which is right in the eyes of the Lord."
Posted by Steve Wells at 7/05/2006 09:21:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
31 comments:
Anonymous said...
And then he asked for forgiveness. He wrote a psalm about it. Create in me a clean heart o' God, and renew a right spirit in me. God forgave him and he had faith. He was found to be a man after God's own heart. It proves no matter how bad you do he will still forgive you if you come to him and call on his name.
Tue Sep 26, 11:13:00 AM 2006
Andrew Koster said...
Forgiveness for what, exactly? The Bible says that David never did anything wrong except for the whole Uriah episode.
All the other Hitleresque escapades were not only approved, but often commanded, by God.
Tue Sep 26, 04:46:00 PM 2006
Russell O'Neill said...
I can understand how it is difficult for the casual observer of the events especially of the Old Testament to understand the essence of what is being communicated. The problem is the viewing of completely different eras of human existence and development through a present day "western" paradigm. We all know that the world view that exists today and that you all speak from (one that came about because of the gradual entrenchment of a Judeo-Christian mentality) is appalled by the callousness of societies of the past. God is not only all powerful but also all knowing and understands the entire story from the end to the beginning. He knows the full process that man (individually and as societies and nations) must go through to begin to adopt positions of true civilization (value for human life and the environment we must all live in).
The most important thing to God (in both an individual and a society) is your internal heart position (the core person that only you and Him know) being attuned to love and obey Him first and to wanting to be compassionate, fair and just to everyone else. If you read properly the thought processes that David went through (see the Psalms and the stories) you will see an inner core position that was that way(even with all the dreadful missteps he makes).
One of the real undeniable actions of David that shows this was his attitude and response when God informed him he was not allowed to build the Temple (ignore God's reason for the time being); David's response was disappointment but obedience and after having planned and collected material and finery for years he steps down from the throne (while still well able to rule) and installs the son who God had said would build and then provides all the material and plans for the most glorious construction in that era and area. I don't think that sounds like the self obsessed despot that you all are trying to make him out to be. Read the stories of David again and the Psalms and try (honestly) to see the thoughts running through his mind.
Mon Nov 20, 07:20:00 AM 2006
Drew said...
re: above
I think the point is for those who think the bible is the word of god and should be followed as such in this day and age. Many people say that the bible should be followed word for word, yet they forget about things like this.
Fri May 25, 07:28:00 PM 2007
andy said...
in spite of our unbelief, inspite of sin, wrongdoing ie: a lie, to steal, to kill. God still loves us, loves you. and wants to know you. david did many many aweful things, God still loved him. thing is david knew where to turn, a real God who has life in His hands. a real God who wants a relationship with all of us. believe it or not.
Mon Jul 16, 08:07:00 AM 2007
Paul said...
don't forget that David was operating not simply as an individual but as leader of a government. While the Bible teaches individuals to "turn the other cheek" persay, it also teaches that the government does not wield the sword for nothing (Romans 13). Consider the police officer as a parallel: As an individual, he is not allowed to kill, but he has authority to kill as a representative of the government/people within certain situation otherwise considered wrong for the average citizen.
Sat May 03, 11:50:00 AM 2008
Amber said...
What boggles the mind is that people are STILL trying to justify this. There is no justification for either the behavior of David. If you don't like it then you read it wrong. It's the readers fault for not being able to jump through hoops. Not the author, who justifies rape, murder, torture, genocide...
C'mon people... you really want to excuse that behavior as being acceptable of the times and still trying to say it's ok? It either is ok (and you've got serious issues if that's the case) or it's not ok (and you need to reconsider how much faith you put in the rest of the book if it glorifies that).
Sun Jun 14, 10:33:00 AM 2009
Daystar said...
I don't have time to address all of this post, but the issue of 2 Samuel 12:31 was linked to here from the SAB. This is a perfect example of why ones study of the Bible should involve the consideration of various translations and an examination of the original language. Especially when the study begins with the King James Version.
Regarding 2 Samuel 12:31; 1 Chronicles 20:3 consider The Anchor Bible, which says: “David is setting up work crews of captives for the economic exploitation of the conquered territory, evidently standard practice for victorious kings.” Adam Clarke says: “He made people slaves, and employed them in sawing, making iron harrows, or mining . . . . And in hewing of wood, and making of brick. Sawing asunder, hacking, chipping, and hewing human beings, have no place in this text, no more than they had in David’s conduct towards the Ammonites.”
The following translations convey the correct meaning. NKJ; NIV; CEV; ESV.
Tue Jan 12, 07:04:00 PM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Daystar,
I agree that the KJV differs from some other translations on 2 Samuel 12:31 and 1 Chronicles 20:3. Some translations say David tortured the inhabitants, others say he enslaved them. I've changed my comments at the SAB and DIU to reflect that.
I'm not nearly as convinced as you are, however, that you know which translations "convey the correct meaning." Bit it is obvious which meaning you'd prefer to believe.
Fri Jan 15, 09:18:00 AM 2010
Daystar said...
Steve, I want to believe the truth. If David tortured people I would want to know that is how it happened, just as I would want to know about Uriah the Hittite.
I think of the Bible as evidence. Most of the translations differ from what the KJV says on this matter, and you can look at it and determine that those other translations are most likely more accurate, but the KJV said what it said and I wouldn't have removed it's testimony from the record.
I recommend you put it back.
Sat Jan 16, 06:22:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Daystar,
You recommend that I put it back? Why? So you will have something to complain about?
Sat Jan 16, 07:38:00 AM 2010
Daystar said...
Steve,
Complain about what? You? You did nothing wrong. You only rightly reported what the KJV said. It rather than you were in error, why should you back down? You were right.
I have only that to complain about. Well . . . for now, anyway. ;~)
Sat Jan 16, 08:12:00 AM 2010
not said...
'WWDD'.. HAHA!
I'm far from a casual reader of the Bible. I've been bunkered down for weeks reading it. I've got three different versions.
You can't say that it's all in the translation.. because there's only so many ways in which you can interpret/translate rape, murder, torture. I have noticed that the more modern versions of the Bible use nicer words (eg. Servant vs Slave). This is wrong and I'm pretty sure those that do such are condemned to death (by the bible - I'm thinking Paul).
The problem with trying to justify David's actions is that he's not the only one, of the Biblical heroes, to be outrageously immoral. You can't justify it all unless you're hopelessly lost in love to a book.
To use the excuse that times have changed doesn't gel with me mainly because if there was a god, no matter the age, he'd know right from wrong and teach his followers such. Just because times have changed, that doesn't change our sense of (in)justice.
It's a strange thing to see people try so hard to justify these stories. It's sad.
If it were me, I'd be asking myself 'but what if I'm wrong and this book is merely a book?'
It's not perfect, but flawed. It's flawed in every sense of the word. I've really tried to accept it for something greater than it is, but the problem is that I'm reading it day by day, week by week, month by month (it's getting to that). The stories of David (atrocities) are but a drop in a pool of unspeakable cruelty.
It's one after another, continuously, through each book.. I would have thought that today's world is actually far more morally bankrupt.
There's so many wonderful writers, that shit all over the Bible. Read Seneca.. and you'll see that he was ahead of Jesus.
Wed Jul 21, 06:45:00 AM 2010
Jessica said...
I usually try to just follow Jesus. He's the one we're called to follow. I don't believe anywhere in the Bible it says "Try to be exactly like David." That wouldn't work, because David was human. He was imperfect just like me, and just like you. Jesus, however was God and man in one, he was tempted by Satan and resisted, and he was perfect. I know that I can't be perfect, but when I am walking in the light as He is in the light (that is, Jesus, not David) Jesus's blood is continually cleansing me and making me perfect in God's sight. David was a man after God's own heart because he was continually seeking God, and did what the Lord commanded,usually no questions asked. I can prove to you that the Bible is historically reliable if you want. :)
Fri Oct 01, 09:25:00 PM 2010
HowToHugHitler said...
As a Christian and a woman I find it very hard to understand most of what happens in the Bible. But the fact remains that God is no more or no less God because of what we understand and what we don't. It isn't morality that gives God his power. It isn't adherence to a moral code that makes you a true Christian. It is a relationship and devotion. It is a willingness to sacrifice anything that you are called to sacrifice.
God is not a teddy bear. He is the Almighty. And He has the authority to choose what He wishes to.
Fri Dec 10, 06:40:00 PM 2010
Aldonis said...
Well - he's another perspective. David was a man - just like us - full of flaws, sins, lusts, ambitions, fears, etc. Because of Sin - we all have it. It's part of our makeup. What David also had - and I think the key of David's story - was FAITH. He had Faith in God. Faith in his promises. Faith that God was with him. When the Sin's got the better of him - with Bathseba, Uriah, his fear of Saul, etc - he came back to Faith. He knew that God NEVER gave up on him. That to me is what the David story is about - he's a man - like me - who messed up (in his case pretty bad at times) but always came back to Faith in his ultimate Father.
That's a good news story I think.
Fri Jan 14, 08:34:00 PM 2011
Jeffery said...
Interesting posts.... I think the point is that David was flawed and yet always came back in faith to not only his Creator but more importantly to his Redeemer! "as the deer pants for the water... so my soul thirsts after you, O God!" (Ps. 42:1-2). Context is everything... and in light of that and considering the evil in the world (and yes at times David succumbed to such evil himself) I find that David was a warrior and followed God in battle and proved to be quite faithful... that isn't wishful thinking on my part nor bending Scriptures to paint a pretty picture... but simple and trusting faith in a God that worked through an imperfect yet faithful warrior like King David. The stories actually make perfectly good sense to me and countless thousands if not millions of others like me too! (which isn't an argument simply an observation that is worthy of consideration along with other observations as you consider the Bible and the claims within it)... Because of Christ! :)
Sun Feb 20, 09:46:00 PM 2011
Kat Martin said...
Interesting. Where Jeffery sees God working through an "imperfect yet faithful warrior" I see an imperfect and possibly clinically insane God with a viscous frat-boy side-kick.
Fri Apr 08, 09:01:00 PM 2011
ingrid said...
The bible states the facts it is historical whether it is pretty or not. They are there I believe so we can look back perceive and not make the same mistakes ourselves. David was imperfect aren't we all? WWDD? Christians follow Jesus not David. For reasons stated so clearly in the other posts. When the people wanted to stone Mary magdalene Jesus said whoever is without sin cast the first stone. No one touched her. It is much easier to point the finger than look at yourself. God must be pretty amazing to create us all so complex and all so individual and different and love us all for the good that is in us. In judges6 he sends his angel to Gideon who calls him "mighty warrior"....... Gideon replies my clan is the weakest and I am the least in my family(paraphrased) God does not see things the way humans do 1corinthians 13:12 "now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror, then we shall see face to face". We will never perceive the nature of god to it's fullest extent not until we enter his presence. We have to have some faith that is why it says without faith we will never please god.
Sat Apr 23, 01:47:00 PM 2011
Klay said...
What a joke! This whole post is worthless!
Who in their right mind would ever listen to someone throwing out misquoted single verses, adding a micro commentary, and speaking condemnation accordingly?
If you think that single phrases can communicate the whole message than you need to grow to a point where someone other than the simple will respond to your posts.
A true searcher of truth will discover the true meaning of a phrase in context and original language.
An example would be modern law.
Could a person off the street take a single phrase from an English translation of a law in another language and present it with any authority concerning the subject? Never.
What would actually happen?
Qualified translators would be brought in, the actual intent of the law would be discovered in the original language, and the equivalent intent would be translated into English with cross references, educated commentary, and cross reference.
Your feeble attempts at research and argument are comical child's play. When it comes to the meaning of life... I would expect a little more effort on your part.
All the best in your journey and may you learn to ask the right questions.
Sat Aug 27, 03:58:00 PM 2011
Job ogles said...
Unbelivers will jump to conclusions and become judge-mental they have to look at their own lives and their own heart. over 50 million babies have been sacrificed to the god of conveinence in america, christians are the most out spoken movement condeming these sacrifices, and the unbelievers are the majority proponents for the sacrifices
Tue May 29, 04:57:00 PM 2012
Anonymous said...
What most of y'all don't seem to understand is the the people David was killing and making slaves ( except Uriah) were wicked pagans who insulted the Lord God Almighty and afflicted his people the Israelites. God used Daved to purge wickedness from the land. Also, how can you expect David to be absolutely perfect and blameless when no man can be. He definately did some evil things like committing adultery with Bathsheba and killing her husband Uriah, but after he was made aware of his sin he immediately plead to God for forgiveness in Psalm 51, in fact so many of his Psalms are asking for forgiveness, but also for deliverance from enemies and praising the Lord. You see in all the evil he did he never hardened his heart to God and always consulted him in everything he did and that is why he was a man after God's own heart.
Wed Jun 20, 06:21:00 AM 2012
Unknown said...
May I have the heart like David as the LORD forgives me my sins and I cry out to Him!
Fri Jul 20, 09:07:00 PM 2012
Carlos Bosque said...
If God its powerfull and mighty, He should have known from the very start that this action that David committed were wrong and He had to disprove everything regardless on what century happen or biblical wrong translation. David was send by his god to kill other people who believe in a different god or was born in a family with different believes. These action are still done today but differently, where you have religion discrimination against homosexuals or different religions believes, in fact Christians fights with in them self on who is right or wrong, does this means we have to turn like David and kill anyone else because a different believes? Common sense tell us its wrong, where was God common sense back then? Just because you got powers it doesn't mean that all your action are correct otherwise we have to agree that Hitler did nothing wrong. Bottom line is, if your god wants to destroy anyone because their believes differed from yours, my friend you got the wrong god and that's basics believes in every religion, my god its going to destroy you for believing differently.
Sun Aug 12, 11:43:00 AM 2012
Matt Becker said...
On one hand, we should give David a little leeway in saving his own hide, since God was compelling Seth to murder him.
On the other hand, David was an adulterer and murderer. According to the law handed down by God, David should have been stoned to death. Certainly up to that point, one of the reasons God was so furious with his chosen people was their lack of following Gods laws.
Instead, God kills David's first born as punishment for David; then grants him another child with Bathsheba. How is it just and right for God to kill children for the sins of their parents? Only to turn around and reward them with another child.
Mon Oct 01, 06:11:00 AM 2012
im jus sayin said...
Archaeology has revealed that the kingdom of David and Solomon was nothing like it was described as in the bible. Modern Archaeology has failed to find any great structures from the time of David or Solomon. This should be extremely disappointing for bible believers if you consider that Solomon ruled over the greatest kingdom of all time. The reality is the biblical accounts of David and Solomon is pure bull. Its just some stupid tribal people with small wankers trying to postulate themselves as something they never were. Instead they are a disgraceful people who lied their way to meaning in society.
Mon Oct 08, 08:27:00 AM 2012
enlightenedmind said...
I understand this perspective because I was there for a time. What you have to realize is you have been conditioned to rely on what you feel is right and wrong.By doing so you put yourself in the place of God. Evil without God's guidance can get tricky it morphs into things. Isn't It possible that you don't know everything? Therefore this bible could be the ultimate truth and you just don't understand because you don't have the holy spirit to help you? I'm just sayin.
Sat Jan 26, 07:31:00 AM 2013
Matt Becker said...
Enlightend Mind,
I presume you have the holy sprit talking to you about good and evil. If the holy spirit tells you to murder someone, would you do it?
I'm not "just sayin" -- I'd really like to know your answer.
Sun Feb 03, 07:25:00 AM 2013
Curtis said...
Enlightenedmind-- the Koran could also be the good and perfect word of god and you could have it all backwards and not know it. How much sleep have you lost over that consideration? Just askin'
Sat Feb 16, 07:34:00 AM 2013
logicnotfeeling said...
Jesus said, "Ye have heard that it hath been said, an eye for an eye" etc. David in the Old Testament lived by those principles. The Philistines were enemies and it was a cut-throat world back then. They were not living under the Sermon on the Mount teachings (which chronologically were far in the future)... To ask WWDD is stupid. Did you know God's mercy was shown in sending his Son to DIE so that the awful penalty for your sin could be paid. People think that the judgement of God is so horrible (or UNFAIR), but if the debt with a righteous, holy God (and God by definition is a HIGHER AUTHORITY) is never settled (and people like to pick and choose Jesus' teachings to say that God is bad to act in a certain way) and sin is never eradicated, then we will always have the agonies on earth that we suffer today -- and no matter how we try, humanity cannot reform itself -- if you were in paradise, you'd mess it up eventually! There must be an outside goodness to change us. And again, even if from this day on you never did anything wrong, the penalty for wrong we have done in the past (lying, stealing, lusting, coveting) MUST BE PAID. Either you can do it yourself (permanent eradication, so you don't mess up the coming paradise, in a place reserved for the devil - SUPREME EVIL - and his angels), or you can find a substitute, which God graciously provided.
Sat Jun 22, 08:45:00 PM 2013
John Miller said...
David, just another criminal of the god invented by criminals, fascists, misogynists, homophobes, the curse of democrats and slaves alike.
Fri Aug 23, 12:55:00 PM 2013
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
31 August 2006Satan vs God: an updated body count
For those of you keeping score, I've made some additions to the list of people killed by God. SAB, Brick Testament Number killed
God tells Joshua to stoned to death Achan (and his family) for taking the accursed thing. Joshua 7:10-12, 24-26, BT 5+
God tells Joshua to attack Ai and do what he did to Jericho (kill everyone). Joshua 8:1-25, BT 12,000
God delivered Canaanites and Perizzites Judges 1:4, BT 10,000
Ehud delivers a message from God: a knife into the king's belly Jg.3:15-22, BT 1
God forces Midianite soldiers to kill each other. Jg.7:2-22, 8:10, BT 120,000
Seven sons of Saul hung up before the Lord 2 Sam.21:6-9 7
God sent a lion to kill a man for not killing a prophet 1 Kg.20:35-36 1
Ahaziah is killed for talking to the wrong god. 2 Kg.1:2-4, 17, 2 Chr.22:7-9 1
Trampled to death for disbelieving Elijah 2 Kg.7:17-20 1
Jezebel 2 Kg.9:33-37 1
God sent lions to kill some foreigners 2 Kg.17:25-26 3+
Saul 1 Chr.10:14 1
So chalk up another 142,021 for God, for a new total of 2,270,365. Satan's score remains at 10.
Posted by Steve Wells at 8/31/2006 11:10:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
15 comments:
Suki said...
Very nice.
The Bible was a propaganda device. The more "bad guys" aka others your god kills, the more powerful he seems, and the more people you can get on your side.
We've linked to this site on http://23rd-mandalation.net
Wed Aug 30, 05:57:00 AM 2006
jake3988 said...
Yeah. Hence, the whole hell thing too. You don't follow my religion you'll burn in hell for all eternity.
Even most ministers agree their goal is to instill the 'fear of god' into you. Which tries to force you to believe in him.
Wed Aug 30, 07:36:00 AM 2006
jake3988 said...
Isaiah 37:36 Then the angel of the LORD went forth, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians a hundred and fourscore and five thousand: and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses.
Doesn't look like you have this, unless I'm dyslexic. Or are you discounting this because its only an angel of the lord? Certainly it was sent forth by the LORD, I'd imagine.
Wed Aug 30, 07:58:00 AM 2006
Steve Wells said...
Yeah it's a bit confusing, isn't it? The same account of the 185,000 sleeping soldiers is told in three different places (2 Kg.19:35, 2 Chr.32:21, Is.37:36), so I only list it once.
Wed Aug 30, 08:25:00 AM 2006
CawfeeGuy said...
don't forget the gaggle of sodomites. your mean nasty hateful god just HATED them!
Wed Aug 30, 01:22:00 PM 2006
jake3988 said...
Ah, didn't think that it was told elsewhere.
Sorry.
Wed Aug 30, 01:48:00 PM 2006
Brucker said...
Heck, I might as well chime in with another two cents here, theologically at least.
From a conservative Christian theological perspective, Genesis 3 tells us a few things. As you probably know, Christians identify the "serpent" as being Satan. God tells Adam that the fruit will kill him, and the serpent tricks Adam into eating it. As I said in my own comments on that chapter, the fruit did kill Adam, it just did it slowly (in the physical sense; in the spiritual sense, the "death" was immediate). Then that death passed from Adam onto all of his descendants and the rest of the world.
By this theological perspective, everyone who ever died was killed by Satan.
Thu Aug 31, 11:34:00 AM 2006
K said...
So when God drops a wall on someone, it's the work of Satan?
Fri Sep 01, 09:05:00 AM 2006
Brucker said...
No, that's one of the weird things about theology, especially from a Calvinistic point of view, is that in the end, both God and Satan in different ways are responsible for every single death that has ever happened and *will* ever happen.
Satan's responsible because he brought about a chain of events that made mankind mortal in the first place, but then God is responsible as well since He is omnipotent.
I don't think that Steve Wells is wrong in compiling this list, but I do tend to think that there are more issues at stake here. It's complicated to decide what level of blame to assign to any group of parties involved. As I said somewhere in a previous comment on this blog, there's a differeence between God killing someone in retaliation for an act of violence and killing someone for gathering sticks on the sabbath (and killing for no apparent reason, on a number of occasions).
I feel like I hear a lot of atheists complain that it's cruel for God to allow babies to die, but when the Bible says He wiped out a nation because they were involved in ritualistic sacrifice of their children, I don't recall ever hearing any atheists saying, "Well, at least God did something about it that time, I guess." Did those people die because they were bad people and got what they deserved, or did they die because a neighboring nation hacked them to pieces with swords, or did they die because they were tempted by Satan to provoke the wrath of a just God, or did they die because God decided they ought to die? Answer: probably all of the above.
Fri Sep 01, 06:05:00 PM 2006
jake3988 said...
Did those people die because they were bad people and got what they deserved
Exactly my point as to why I hate christian thought. Why is it that most people in this country (regardless of religion) on a whole generally dislike the death penalty, yet christians support god killing people just because they're 'bad' people?
Just like with Katrina, people like Pat Robertson come up and say it was probably an act of god wiping away the horrendous sin down there. Well, don't get me wrong, I don't like what some of them were doing either, but they deserved death? I don't think so. And I certainly am not willing to support a god that believes that death is the only option.
And its far from a 'just god'. Give me a break.
Sat Sep 02, 05:30:00 PM 2006
Brucker said...
Are you sure about the general consensus on the death penalty? I'd be curious as to what the stats really say. I'm sure there are many non-religious people who support the death penalty, and I know for a fact that there are plenty of Christians who oppose it. (I believe the official stance of the Catholic Church is anti-death penalty, for instance.)
But the main point is that so much of right and wrong and the laying of blame for things is a highly subjective process. (That's not to say that morality is subjective per se so much as people understand it differently.) If a majority of the people who support the death penalty think they are carrying out "God's will" by putting murderers to death, then does that mean that God has to take part of the blame, whether they are right or not? Maybe.
I was just hearing earlier today that there was a religious leader who claimed that there was a connection between hurricaine Katrina and a scheduled gay-pride parade in New Orleans. The person commenting on this pointed out that this was an odd assessment as the part of New Orleans in which the parade was to be held was one of the few parts of the city that was not flooded.
I get sort of tired some times--scratch that, a lot of the time when people take spurious connections between two events and attempt to divine the will of God from it. If Katrina was "judgment" on anything, I'd say it was judgment on our wrecking the environment through global warming; at least there's a reasonable natural causal connection there.
Tue Sep 12, 03:18:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
perhaps there isn't a biblical reference to god's hand in lot's wife's demise, but rumour has it someone turned her into a pillar of salt. that sounds uncomfortably permanent. +1 for god?
Thu Sep 28, 09:13:00 AM 2006
Steve Wells said...
"+1 for god?"
Well, actually I'd already included her in my original body count. Lot's nameless wife was the first on the list.
Fri Sep 29, 04:05:00 PM 2006
Discipula said...
Question for thought: should a perfect God tolerate evil people (keeping in mind that in God's view, anything less than perfect is evil)? And if He should tolerate evil people, is there a reason He shouldn't tolerate evil events?
Fri Oct 06, 06:58:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
to be fair, shouldn't god get -2 for the resurrection of lazarus & jesus?
Sun Oct 08, 04:51:00 PM 2006
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
30 August 2006God's uncounted and uncountable killings
In a previous post, I counted the number of people that were killed by God in the Bible. I came up with 2,270,365, but that didn't include the many massacres for which no body count is given. So, for the sake of completeness, I figured I ought to at least provide a list of God's un-named and un-numbered victims.
God drowns everyone on earth.
Genesis 7:21-23, Brick Testament
God rains fire and brimstone on Sodom and Gomorrah, killing everyone.
Genesis 19:24, BT
God kills all the firstborn Egyptian children.
Exodus 12:29, BT
God drowns Pharaoh's army in the sea.
Exodus 14:4-28, BT
God and Moses help Joshua kill the Amalekites.
Exodus 17:13, BT
God burned to death an unknown number for complaining.
Numbers 11:1, BT
God sent a plague for complaining about the food.
Numbers 11:33, BT
God killed those who murmured with a plague.
Numbers 14:36-37, BT
Massacre of the Aradites
Numbers 21:3, BT
For complaining about the lack of food and water, God sent fiery serpents to bite the people, and many of them died.
Numbers 21:6, BT
God delivers the Bashanites into Moses' hands and Moses kills everyone "until their was none left alive."
Numbers 21:34-35, BT
The slaughter of the Anakim, the childen of Esau, and the Horims
A people great, and many, and tall, as the Anakims; but the LORD destroyed them ... As he did to the children of Esau, which dwelt in Seir, when he destroyed the Horims from before them. -- Deuteronomy 2:21-22
God hardened the king of Heshbon's heart so that the Israelites could massacre his people.
And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain: -- Deuteronomy 2:33-34, BT
God delievered the king of Bashan so that the Israelites could massacre his people. (60 cities)
So the LORD our God delivered into our hands Og also, the king of Bashan, and all his people: and we smote him until none was left to him remaining. ... And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city. -- Deuteronomy 3:3-6, BT
Massacre of Jericho
And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city [Jericho], both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword. -- Joshua 6:21, BT
God slaughters the Amorites and even chases them "along the way" as they try to escape.
And the LORD discomfited them before Israel, and slew them with a great slaughter at Gibeon, and chased them along the way ... the LORD cast down great stones from heaven upon them unto Azekah, and they died: they were more which died with hailstones than they whom the children of Israel slew with the sword. -- Joshua 10:10-11
Massacre of Makkedah
Joshua 10:28, BT
Massacre of Libnah
Joshua 10:29-30, BT
Massacre of Lachish
Joshua 10:32, BT
Massacre of Gezer
Joshua 10:33, BT
Massacre of Eglon
Joshua 10:34-35, BT
Massacre of Hebron
Joshua 10:36-37, BT
Massacre of Debir
Joshua 10:38-39, BT
God delivers the Hazorites.
The LORD delivered them into the hand of Israel ... and they smote them, until they left them none remaining. -- Joshua 11:8-12, BT
Massacre of the Anakim
Joshua 11:20-21, BT
Massacre of the Canaanites
Judges 4:15, BT
God delivered the Ammonites to Jephthah to slaughter.
The LORD delivered them into [Jephthah's] hands. And he smote them ... with a very great slaughter. -- Judges 11:32-33
God forces the Philistine soldiers to kill each other.
Every man's sword was against his fellow, and there was a very great discomfiture. -- 1 Samuel 14:20
God orders Saul to kill every Amalekite man, women, and child.
Thus saith the LORD of hosts ... go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. ... And Saul smote the Amalekites ... and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword. -- 1 Samuel 15:2-18
God delivers the Philistines.
I will deliver the Philistines into thine hand. So David ... smote them with a great slaughter. -- 1 Samuel 23:2-5
God delivers the Philistines to David (again).
And David enquired of the LORD, saying, Shall I go up to the Philistines? ... And the LORD said unto David, Go up: for I will doubtless deliver the Philistines into thine hand. ... And David did so, as the LORD had commanded him; and smote the Philistines." -- 2 Samuel 5:19, 25
God sent a three-year famine because of something Saul did.
Then there was a famine in the days of David three years, year after year; and David enquired of the LORD. And the LORD answered, It is for Saul, and for his bloody house, because he slew the Gibeonites." -- 2 Samuel 21:1
Baasha killed everyone in the house of Jeroboam "according to the saying of the Lord."
He smote all the house of Jeroboam; he left not to Jeroboam any that breathed, until he had destroyed him, according unto the saying of the LORD. -- 1 Kings 15:29-30
Zimri killed everyone in the house of Baasha "according to the word of the Lord."
He slew all the house of Baasha: he left him not one that pisseth against a wall ... according to the word of the LORD. -- 1 Kings 16:11-12
God calls for a seven year famine.
The LORD hath called for a famine; and it shall also come upon the land seven years. -- 2 Kings 8:1
God delivered the Israelites into the hand of the Chaldeans.
The wrath of the LORD arose against his people, till there was no remedy. Therefore he brought upon them the king of the Chaldees, who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion upon young man or maiden, old man, or him that stooped for age: he gave them all into his hand. -- 2 Chronicles 36:16-17
Posted by Steve Wells at 8/30/2006 06:30:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
4 comments:
TTEchidna said...
God sure is an asshole, isn't he?
Makes me kind of embarassed that the book where the most killings are is what I'm named for.
Tue Oct 03, 12:59:00 AM 2006
Bacon Eating Atheist Jew said...
The flood numbers could be estimated.
But we would have to estimate the time between Adam and Eve and the flood, also we would need to estimate the population growth rate between Adam and Eve and the flood.
There are scientific estimates available but we shouldn't use them, because science tells us the flood didn't happen and it also incorporates the evils of evolution theory.
Sun Oct 08, 05:04:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
The God of Christianity is just baout as bad as the one of Islam.
Fucking religion.
Tue Nov 14, 09:46:00 PM 2006
omnisgnoto said...
This is only the begining...
You'ld must be remember another prophetics text in:
Apocalipse 19:11-21
Sun Jul 15, 10:37:00 AM 2007
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
25 August 2006The worth of a woman: the Bible vs. the Quran
Don't you love it when the Bible and the Quran agree (more or less) on something? I do. Because whenever they do, you can be pretty sure they're both wrong.
Take the worth of a woman, for example. They go at it from slightly different angles, but come up with the same answer. A woman is worth about half as much as a man.
Here's what the Bible has to say.
And thy estimation shall be of the male from twenty years old even unto sixty years old, even thy estimation shall be fifty shekels of silver.... And if it be a female, then thy estimation shall be thirty shekels.
And if it be from five years old even unto twenty years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male twenty shekels, and for the female ten shekels.
And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver.
And if it be from sixty years old and above; if it be a male, then thy estimation shall be fifteen shekels, and for the female ten shekels. -- Leviticus 27:3-7
So, depending on their age, females are worth 1/2 to 2/3 as much as males.
But what does the Quran say?
Well it doesn't come right out, like the Good Book does, and place a monetary value on human life, male and female. But it does compare the value of men and women from a financial point of view.
Allah chargeth you concerning (the provision for) your children: to the male the equivalent of the portion of two females, and if there be women more than two, then theirs is two-thirds of the inheritance, and if there be one (only) then the half. -- Quran 4:11
... unto the male is the equivalent of the share of two females. -- Quran 4:176
And the Quran tells us just how much we should trust a woman's testimony: it's worth half that of a man's.
And call two witness from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not at hand, then a man and two women. -- Quran 2:282
So praised be Jesus and Muhammed (peanut butter and jelly be upon them)! The Bible and the Quran agree: a woman is worth half as much as a man.
Posted by Steve Wells at 8/25/2006 05:40:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
43 comments:
say no to christ said...
Great blog, thanks for creating it. Cant wait to read over all of it. :)
Sun Aug 27, 11:11:00 AM 2006
Jake3988 said...
Well, let's just say that's being nice.
There are plenty of versus in the bible that states that women should cover their head, be silent, and 'Always obey their husbands'
skeptics annotated bible and why won't god heal amputees has TONS of versus on the subject in case your looking for more.
Sun Aug 27, 12:29:00 PM 2006
say no to christ said...
Not only does the NT say women must be in submission, but it also says Eve=women is more guilty than Adam=men. Thus, blaming women for all of mankinds problems.
Thu Aug 31, 08:13:00 AM 2006
jake3988 said...
Well yeah, and the funny thing is lots of religions do that. It was fun researching this a while back.
To give an easy example, think pandora's box.
I got a christian woman's response to be: "It was written by men, obviously". Funny thing is, that's basically the point. Nearly every pagan story that outdates christianity blames women for the fall of mankind.
Interesting isn't it?
Sat Sep 02, 05:46:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Well that is not true of the pagan/pantheistic polytheist Hindoos - they have no concept of fall of mankind!
Their cosmogony says the universe passes through 4 phases, each successive phase being less ordered (like entropy), less good, more evil, etc. until the whole thing is destroyed and restarted on a fresh cycle by the universal intelligent entity, a.k.a. Brahman.
You may want to read this too: From physics to metaphysics.
Wed Sep 13, 09:32:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
In the New Testament, men are told to love their wives as Christ loved the church. Christ sacrificed all for his church, including his very life. Christ also respected women while he was here on earth even rescuing and forgiving one caught in adultery.
Wed Sep 20, 05:35:00 PM 2006
Emmy said...
hello ,
well about this part in the quran :
'Allah chargeth you concerning (the provision for) your children: to the male the equivalent of the portion of two females, and if there be women more than two, then theirs is two-thirds of the inheritance, and if there be one (only) then the half.' -- Quran 4:11
its because in islam , the man's financial obligations are far more than those of the woman. the man gives the dowry to his wife.he pays for all the necessities of life such as accommodation,food,and clothes.on the other hand,the wife doesnt have to suppoert anyone even herself because her husband is responsible for maintaining her,no matter how rich she is.
while,in the bible ,the woman has no right to inherit whether she 's a mother, a sister, a wife, or a daughter except for the daughter who has no brothers.this law was in use until the last century and some hugh-class families in Europe still give most of their possessions to the first-born son .
and about this part :
'And call two witness from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not at hand, then a man and two women.' -- Quran 2:282
well thats not because women are not trusted.. no, its because Most women judge by her their emotions and they cant control their emotions toward something.. they may just hide the truth because they're afraid someone may get hurt or they may accuse someone of something because they know very well that he's the kind of person that could do it. unlike men, who most of the time , judge by facts more than feelings and emotions.
the quran respects the woman so much.
"never will i allow you to be lost the work of any of you , male or female , you are one of another" (Quran 3:195)
Sat Sep 23, 09:13:00 PM 2006
Emmy said...
((( say no to christ said...
Not only does the NT say women must be in submission, but it also says Eve=women is more guilty than Adam=men. Thus, blaming women for all of mankinds problems. ))
Well in the Quran :
"and he "satan" swore by Allah to them BOTH (Adam and Eve) saying : "Verily,i am one of the sincere well-wishers for you both " so he misled them with deception "
Sat Sep 23, 09:17:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
you guys... read Joseph Campbell. The patriarchal religious thought is a common paradigm that took over the previous, matriarchal paradigm ie. earth worship, goddess worship, fertility rites, etc. a lot of symbolism in the bible, for instance god destroying leviathan, is representative of the younger, male generation of thought overwhelming the ancient, female represented by serpents, waters, the moon and so on
I love this site
Mon Sep 25, 03:50:00 PM 2006
Mario said...
"well thats not because women are not trusted.. no, its because Most women judge by her their emotions and they cant control their emotions toward something"
Yes, it's not because they can't be trusted, but because they're too emotional, and therefore can't be trusted.
I love that. They're too emotional to be trusted to give true testimony. Of course, men are not influenced by their emotions... say, because they want to protect someone. Or because they want to *harm* someone. A man wouldn't give false testimony against someone he dislikes, would he?
No, I know plenty of men who judge by feelings and emotions (or who lie).
For example... you.
Mon Oct 02, 02:56:00 PM 2006
Discipula said...
The value of women, as taught in the Bible:
When God created Adam, he said, "It is not good for a man to be alone." So he had Adam go through all the animals and name them (and the Hebrew verb for name implies giving a name based on identity, rather than just assigning an arbitrary tag). When Adam was finished with all the animals, there still was not found a suitable companion for him. So God created Eve. Many Christians assert on this basis that woman is the crown of creation. The title "helper" (Hebrew: "ezer") is not an inherently demeaning one, as many suggest. God Himself is described with the same word on multiple occasions (Psalm 10:14, John 14:16, Hebrews 13:6). Note that, since Christianity teaches that God inspired all of Scripture through human writers, He chose the title of Helper for Himself.
At other places in the Old Testament, God honors women by giving them prominence in His plan: Esther, who saved her people; Deborah, who led the nation of Israel; and Huldah the prophetess. In the book of Proverbs, wisdom is frequently personified as a woman, and in other places. God even gives his blessing to a young man's raptures over his sweetheart/bride in the Song of Solomon.
In the New Testament, Jesus sought women out (John 4), taught them (Luke 10:38-42), and had them among His followers (Luke 24:9-11). The first person he appeared to after His resurrection was Mary Magdalene.
The apostles, too, gave honor to women and allowed them prominent positions in the church (notably Priscilla, but also Lydia, Euodia, and Syntyche). John addressed his second epistle to the otherwise-unnamed Elect Lady.
As to women's silence in church, when Paul said, "Let women learn in silence," he was saying two things: first the imperative "Let women learn," which was revolutionary in his day, and second, "in silence," which places the primary responsibility for church leadership in the hands of men. This is because God created men for headship and women for complementarian submission. He did not mean headship to be domineering or submission servile. God does not necessarily think women are weaker than men--notice He did not create man as a helpmate for woman--He just calls them to a different kind of strength: that of supportive self-restraint and self-giving. Men are also to be self-restrained and self-giving, but in a protective way. For this reason, God lays on men the primary responsibility for leadership in the home and in the church. (Perhaps that's why He demanded higher prices for men than women in the Leviticus passage Steve mentioned.)
Regarding head coverings, there are solid hermeneutical reasons to believe that Paul told women to cover their heads so that they not offend against cultural conventions of masculinity and femininity. It was not a universal mandate.
It doesn't suffice to take a few passages from the Bible to make it say something that it doesn't really say. Steve says the Bible calls women inferior, while Christian feminists interpret it the other way in order to support women's liberation. They can't both be right. In order to find out what the Bible really says, one has to research available references thoroughly. If anyone happens to be interested in further reading, many of these issues and more are discussed in "Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood: A Response to Christian Feminism," edited by John Piper and Wayne Grudem. They confront feminism in the church, but they also emphatically affirm the equal value of men and women.
Fri Oct 06, 06:15:00 PM 2006
Grant said...
Mario said...
"well thats not because women are not trusted.. no, its because Most women judge by her their emotions and they cant control their emotions toward something"
Yes, it's not because they can't be trusted, but because they're too emotional, and therefore can't be trusted.
I love that. They're too emotional to be trusted to give true testimony. Of course, men are not influenced by their emotions... say, because they want to protect someone. Or because they want to *harm* someone. A man wouldn't give false testimony against someone he dislikes, would he?
No, I know plenty of men who judge by feelings and emotions (or who lie).
For example... you.
Wow, was that necessary? In the rules of a formal debate, you don't use ad hominem arguments. In other words, don't attack the person. If somebody makes a sensible argument, and you disagree with it, just give your reasons why, don't attack.
Mon Oct 16, 12:39:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Actually, no. The Bible says that Adam and Eve both sinned, and they both sinned equally.
Women and men are very much equal in the Bible (1 Peter 3:7). They're both to submit to each other.
The problem? Many of those verses are too often taken out of context (Paul was telling a certain group of women to be silent, because they were being rude).
Wed Nov 08, 05:39:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
heyyy bastards why dont u read the whole surah ın the kuran? u all are liar why dont u try to learn the truth? have u ever tried to read the quran?
dont u have brains? dont u see they show u the verses by changing their meaning? stupid morons.
Sun Dec 10, 02:47:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
Just to give in my opinion on a few things, women are allowed to inherit in the bible.
"What Zelophad's daughters are saying is right. You must certainly give them property as an inheritance among their father's relatives and turn their father's inheritance over to them." Numbers 27:7
Also the equality of everyone including women is shown by,
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Galatians 3:28
Tue Dec 12, 12:27:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
thank u emmy for clearing things up more as he/she said "IN ISLAM" so he/she is just telling what he/she wants ,plz we r in 21st century not in the dark ages , women inherit less in islam that doesnt mean that ITS RIGHT, maybe ACCOURDING TO UR CULT , a women needs these days r much similer to man u know cars/properties/other,so a woman must be as same as a man, 1/2 is not 1 , so its so unfair , by the way there r lots of women have a higher IQ than men,a woman doctor is better like a savage man that lives in the desert ,so dont judge ALL women like they r stupid or lower than men, so think abuot, dont just go along for everything they tell u, grow up
Thu Mar 08, 12:06:00 AM 2007
Anonymous said...
The worth of Woman in bible new testament.
Males are holy to God, not females. Luke 2:23
Paul explains that "the natural use" of women is to act as sexual objects for the pleasure of men. Romans 1:27
Abandon your wife and family for Jesus and he'll give you a big reward. Luke 18:29-30
Jesus will reward men who abandon their wives and families. Mark 10:29-30
In the last days God will make things especially rough on pregnant women.Mark 13:17
"Woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days." Matthew 24:19
If a woman refuses to cover her head in church, then her her head must be shaved. 11:5-6 1corinthians
Men are made in the image of God; women in the image of men. Women were created from and for men. 1corinthians 11:7-9
Wives must submit to their husbands "in every thing" as though they were Christ. "For the husband is the head of the wife." Ephesians 5:22-24
You should help a widow only if she 1) is over 60 years old, 2) had only one husband, 3) has raised children, 4) has lodged strangers, 5) has "washed the saints feet," 6) has relieved the afflicted, and 7) has "diligently followed very good work." Otherwise, let them starve. "But the younger widows refuse [to help]: for ... they will marry; having damnation." Besides the young widows are always idle tattlers -- "busybodies, spreading things which they ought not." He adds that "some are already turned aside after Satan." - 1 Timothy5:9-15
Jesus will "cast her [Jezebel] into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her." - Revelation 2:22
The "great whore" corrupted the earth with her fornication. - Revelation 19:2
Thu Apr 26, 12:12:00 PM 2007
Amaselo Trinacria said...
It is amazing how man can spend so much time micro analyzing every word and phrase in the book. A belief in God is based on the Holy Spirit coming onto you. The bible is... a guide for us to follow in order to stay in that very norrow path that will lead us into salvation. Then again it's not what's in the bible but rather what's in your heart (The Holy Spirit) that can help you better understand the book. You come into this world empty handed, naked, and so you shall depart. But while you are here, the book is your "Owner's Manual". Instead of trying to find faults in it, look for the multitude of good that's in it that will nurish your soul.
Tue Sep 25, 08:04:00 PM 2007
activeco said...
It's actually amazing how many idiots live by its word(s). The people of the script devided into three fractions, with at most 2% difference in their horrible, insane teachings.
Mon Oct 29, 01:46:00 PM 2007
Scheherazade said...
This is an absurd argument. The blogger and those who agree with him have clearly taken Biblical and Qur'anic scripture out of historical and cultural context, given that, for the Bible at least, many of the quotes are from letters written to specific churches with specific problems, not quotes from Jesus giving directions to all people. It is obvious that none of these people has read the Bible or Qur'an in its entirety or with any concept of context.
People will believe what they want to believe, and quoting random verses one way or the other hardly supports either belief.
Wed Dec 26, 12:33:00 AM 2007
Pete said...
"The blogger and those who agree with him have clearly taken Biblical and Qur'anic scripture out of historical and cultural context, given that, for the Bible at least, many of the quotes are from letters written to specific churches with specific problems, not quotes from Jesus giving directions to all people. It is obvious that none of these people has read the Bible or Qur'an in its entirety or with any concept of context."
I have, from cover to cover, numerous times, numerous editions from the KJV to the NIV (including "The Message"). I agree with the statements that there ar horrible things in the Bible. For you to make a comment along the lines of "This is absurd" is your own attempt to rationalise the cruelty, injustice and sexism demonstrated within both books.
And to the rest of your comment... A lot of people DO take the Bible (or the Qu'Ran) literally and are causing a LOT of problems for humanity as a whole. People die every day because of fighting among factions, hatred toward those who do not agree with their literal interpretation of their respective books, among other things.
You might say "Out of context" all you like... But the stuff is in there, and the verses and quotes stand for themselves. There isn't any other context that they can be taken in.
Sun Mar 09, 06:16:00 AM 2008
Lars G said...
"The blogger and those who agree with him have clearly taken Biblical and Qur'anic scripture out of historical and cultural context,"
The historical context argument is not available in fact to Muslims, since the Koran is the eternal word of God and true and valid for always. And the prophet is the perfect man who muslims should replicate.
Tue Mar 18, 03:48:00 PM 2008
rachie5ft said...
It seems obvious that there is much ignorance on this blog. Choosing a verse from Leviticus, the 3rd book in the Bible, (which is an excellent book, containing the covenant God had with the people of Isreal after he rescued them from Egypt), and running with it is #1 somewhat ignorant and #2 dangerous if you are a Christian. As a Christian, it should be known that when Christ came as the ultimate sacrifice for all mankind, men and women, a new covenant was created for those who believed in him. Actually, even before the new covenant, it is stated in Proverbs 31:10 A wife of noble character who can find? She is worth far more than rubies. and 31:25 She is clothed with strength and dignity; she can laugh at the days to come. and 31:28 Her children arise and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praises her. 31:27She watches over the affairs of her household and does not eat the bread of idleness. It is pretty obvious by this section, if you would only read on, that women are considered valueable. You just have to have the patience to read and do it without the intention of critisism. In the New testament the Gospels quote Jesus and referring to men and women both as his brothers and sisters not just men. God's word states in Acts 2:18 " Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my spirit in those days, and they will prophesy." Please people, I encourage you to please thoroughly read the word before making such an assumption. The best way to research is to search for the best possible information, not information that is going to help you prove your point.
GOD BLESS YOU ALL
Fri Apr 04, 04:47:00 PM 2008
The Exegesis Fairy said...
The Bible CANNOT be read apart from its context. That's not to say that nothing in it is applicable, because frankly the whole 'Do not oppress aliens (as in people of other lands, not the little green men), and 'be nice to orphans and widows' bits are pretty good.
But Christianity runs into awful trouble when it tries to be completely literal. For example, God is described as a Rock, a Shield, a Father, a mother giving birth...if God exists then He/She is beyond any of these things, but metaphors help us know what God is LIKE.
I don't know about the Quran, whether it's meant to be interpreted contextually or not. But it's a religious text allowing men to (lightly!) beat their wives, and seems a mishmash of Christianity, Judaism and Arabian paganism (complete with Allah, the moon god, repackaged for a new century) so I'm not big on it.
I could go into the supposed 'women are inferior' Bible passages here but frankly, you'd be bored, and I don't know how to make Greek and Hebrew letters in this little box, which it would really require.
Regardless, I tend to take the fact that women in the Bible have been:
- judges
- prophets
- church leaders
- deacons
- patrons
- teachers
- businesswomen
all in the days before reliable contraception as a pretty good sign really.
Plus, you know, "There is no Jew or Greek, male or female, slave or free: we are all one in Christ Jesus" and "be characterised by love for one another" are pretty good sentiments to have too.
And what can I say? I'm pretty keen on Jesus, and I believe what He said about Himself.
Sat Jun 14, 08:57:00 AM 2008
Marcelo said...
"The first person he appeared to after His resurrection was Mary Magdalene." - Was she by herself? Sorry, she needs another woman to back up her claims.
Wed Jul 22, 03:29:00 PM 2009
Connie said...
Don't you love all the hoops that these people have to jump through to rectify the inhuman cruelty of their religions?
That lie that they love to spread about women having it so bad before thier religions came along and saved women from being human is too absurd for words. Women were scholars and teachers and business owners and queens who ruled in their own right before greedy Jews came along and put a price on their head. They were making a profit off selling women, and their women saw other women with gold and jewels and complete freedom and they started to protest, that is when the Jews got together and invented God to put women back in their place, on the auction block, striped of all jewels and silk of course because they could make a profit from selling that too. Pagan women were stoned in the streets for wearing braids in their hair and jewels and silk that was to terrorize the Jewish women from ever asking for anything. It worked so well that the Christians and Muslims seeing the Jews had complete ruthless domination over their women, they copied it.
Religion is power and power corrupts and there is no more absolute power than a God to do all your dirty work. No matter what hoops the jump through to try to clean it up, the fact is that their religions have been around for over 2000 years and are complete and utter failures the world is worse off because of religion, women have paid the highest price for that failure
and only idiots repeat the same mistake over and over hoping for a different outcome, so that makes anyone who follows those religions beyond stupid! They will NEVER learn, if they didn't learn in 2000 years what hope is there?
Fri Apr 09, 04:04:00 AM 2010
Srinivasan said...
I like it when offended muslims cry "out of context" whenever an unsavoury part of their "revealed" text is highlighted. And they invariably fail to tell us what exactly is the context. The Qur'an is supposedly the literal word of their allah, it has no context. In fact, the Qur'an as compiled and in use today is not even arranged in chronological sequence, it is arranged from big surah to small. To makes things worse, their allah had introduced the concept of abrogation, meaning later verses will override the earlier contradictory ones. Making sense of the resultant mess is a headache in itself.
Wed Apr 14, 07:32:00 PM 2010
TaoCat said...
What is with this "context" anyway? Was god, allah, whatever, simply pandering to the prevalent custom? Is this an omnipotent, omniscient god or a politician?
Thu May 13, 09:44:00 PM 2010
Matthew Wong said...
Yeah, YOU can always take a couple of sentences from any reading or teaching and interpret it the way YOU want it to look like? But will YOU take the time to find out the the overall message from the whole passage on translate the NT from it's orginal language (greek) which will give you a whole different meaning to the word "submit" as I even thought it meant? Apparently not for all you that have judged the Bible. You see, I became a Christian in my mid 20's and this topic on women was important to me as well. I was not about to worship a God that didn't value women. But I assure you He does. And I can support it from the very same Bible you are against.
Christ came to serve the world; the meek, the poor, the outcasts, not to judge the world. Unfortunately, many churches do not exemplify Jesus, and I'm sorry for that. Humans are all sinful; Christians or non...we're not Christ. He came in complete humility to love on children, women, and men of all cultures and races. Why do you think the jewish authorities wanted to kill one of their own? He was offering life not to just the jews, but to everyone including the jews' enemies (Romans). It was this grace and mercy that Jesus showed that led even a roman soldier (at Christ's death) to believe in Jesus. For after putting our Lord on the cross, Jesus prayed to God, "Forgive them for they do not know what they are doing". Does this sound like a God that would diminish the value of a woman?
And what Discipula wrote about the Bible, is absolutely accurate. But please challenge us, not as a fight, but we want the truth as well.
Thu May 27, 02:10:00 PM 2010
Malina said...
This is all quite fascinating. Interesting to watch people quoting Bible verses for a particular concept and then others say, no, you've got it wrong, and they quote a different Bible verse to the contrary. Then the first accuses the second of taking things out of context and the second responds that it is actually the first who is taking things out of context. Apparently what is completely disregarded as conceivable is what the SAB spends much time and space pointing out: that the Bible is contradictory. And contains some outlandish maybe even ridiculous stuff. Go ahead and believe, but refusing to acknowledge the contradictions, or explaining them away by saying a contradiction is created only by failing to read "in context" seems counterproductive. At the very least, how is one supposed to know what the right "context" is?
Thu Jan 13, 09:18:00 AM 2011
Matt said...
"Say no to Christ" might want to read the whole bible instead of taking things completely out of context. Jesus was very compassionate and gave respect to women throughout the whole new testament. When Paul said for women to submit to women at Corinth, it was b/c most of the women were wearing the pants in the family and weren't respecting the men. In the NT it also says, for men to love and respect their wives as Christ did to the church. Jesus considered His followers friends = equals. He did not come to judge, but to love and be judged by everyone else.
Sounds like you probably had a bad history with Christians or your family who were Christians, and for that I'm sorry. But please don't take that hatred out on the God that does love you. And I would read the Bible in it's entirety next time. In everything, we can take what we want from it out of context.
Fri Jan 14, 10:34:00 AM 2011
Matt said...
Malina, You'll know what the truth or right thing is by NOT JUDGING! Everyone thinks They know everything, therefore, makes presumptions.
Fri Jan 14, 10:40:00 AM 2011
SmooveBB said...
Yes - god honors women, that is why there are so many of them in the leadership of every church. Give me a break people, most religions oppress women and the women of those religions are often the biggest apologists of their own oppression.
Of course the men don't need to worry about it because they are the ones doing the oppressing as planned.
Fri Sep 30, 07:04:00 AM 2011
SmooveBB said...
BTW - there is no CONTEXT in the bible. It is either the word of god as it stands, or it is meaningless! You can read what says. When you start discussing 'context' you are really just trying to justify how terrible it is.
It is complete NONSENSE people, wake up! The year is 2011, religion has been wrong about EVERYTHING throughout history. Science trumps it over and over. The churches fight, kill people for arguing with them, and then eventually capitulate after doing tremendous damage.
Religion is a complete crock and only those who are willing to completely suspend the evidence in front of their eyes, and also afraid to face life without an horribly cruel invisible friend/parent/overlord can 'believe' it.
Fri Sep 30, 07:08:00 AM 2011
Bufo said...
If you can't use specific quotes from your holy texts (whichever one you adhere to) to advance an argument or idea or position -- and you tell others simply ignore the "man behind the curtain", just find the general message contained therein -- then all you have is "opinion" about what a flawed and ambiguous text confusedly presents in messages to small, individuated groups or audiences. Thus, you are not demonstrating anything real or rational, nor ever moderately intelligent. Face it, you believers are just basing your take on reality on gibberish that you choose to believe. Is Marvel Comics proof that Spider Man exists?
Tue Feb 07, 06:57:00 AM 2012
Lilitu Xoc said...
Paganism does have a fall, called pandora's box. A woman is blamed for this.
I can tell that the biblical writers were wrought on stamping out females and the acknowledgment of the female half of God. It was the priesthood who mostly wrote this. The Hebrew Goddess shows this. All the Israelites were, were a tribe break away from the Canaanites anyway.
Tue Jun 05, 05:19:00 AM 2012
Rowena Ravenclaww said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Sun Nov 18, 05:32:00 AM 2012
lovebeingamuslimah said...
I know this is years late, but you don't seem to understand the roles in Islaam.
The man's obligation is to take care of the women in his family (wife, daughters, mother, sisters, etc), including financially. His money is basically all of the family's money. A woman's money is completely her own - she is under no obligation to spend it on others (except for the charity aspect). If the man does NOT spend on his family, then he is being sinful.
So if the man has the responsibility to take care of the women in his family, it makes sense that he inherits more money with which to take care of them.
Thu Jan 03, 01:28:00 PM 2013
mike said...
the woman in Islam has no financial obligations, this is why the share of women is half the man from the inheritance.. example, mariage costs are to be covered only by the man, the living expenses of the family.etc.
Mon Feb 11, 05:32:00 AM 2013
Unknown said...
Brycen...
I love this sight!
I am a christian and believe in a Loving Good God.
I believe the Bible was written by man and thus (proves im a Christian I use the word 'thus' ha ha) God is seen in scriptures through Man's perspective.
I believe weve gotten a lot of it wrong over the years, and some of it we are willing to back track on Like : polygamy, slavery, and womens rights.
I am excited, because I believe we are moving in to a time where christians as a whole will start admitting the angry murdering God of the OT is a misconception.
Hell, I don't believe that anymore so thats a positive.
Anyways, I appreciate your website and your pointing out of the hypocricy of the church. I believe is helping us all to inevitably larger understanding of the truth.
Yea, thanks.
Thu Jul 11, 08:56:00 AM 2013
Yark Hutprancer said...
I don't mean to be rude, but all the believer comments show how bad believer thinking is. And, there are always the "context" nuts. What context exactly are they talking about? Reading the "word of god" isn't enough? I have to send my mind back in time? I don't think so. The words speak for themselves and provide context. It's just more mindless believer hand-waving nonsense to distract from the real problems in the holy babble.
Thu Oct 24, 01:36:00 PM 2013
Abdulmajed Adel Mohammed said...
HERE IS THE TRUTH:
HOW COULD YOU TRUST SOME OF THE POSTS HERE, RIGHT??
DONT WASTE YOUR TIME, THERE IS ONLE ONE TRUTH.. GUIDANCE IS ONLY IN THE HANDS OF THE CREATURE.
YOU WANT TO KNOW THE TRUTH ABOUT ISLAM AND WOMEN IS ISLAM, THEN VISIT A MOSQUE AND ASK FOR THEIR SHEIKH AND TELL HIM TO SHOW YOU THE EVIDENCE TOWARDS EVERYTHING HE TELLS YOU, BUT FIRST UNDERSTAND WHAT ISLAM MEANS.
Tue Feb 18, 05:10:00 PM 2014
ByronSharp said...
I note that defenders of the bible/Quran make comments here that use cheap debating tricks, or SHOUT assertions. Neither would be accepted in a court of law.
Legal judges employ the concept of reasonableness. Any reasonable assessment of the Bible and Quran would judge them to be wanting in terms of female, children and animal rights.
I am glad that my daughter's morals are not based on either book. Neither is suitable reading for children.
Fri Apr 04, 05:40:00 PM 2014
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
24 August 2006A tale of two prophets
Okay. I've missed another one. (Thanks Joshua Ditty)
In 1 Kings 13, there's a story about two prophets, where one prophet is killed by God (well, a lion that is sent by God) for believing another prophet's lie.
I know it's a silly story, and it's a bit complicated, but it ups the score for God to 2,124,335+ (not including Job's sons and daughters). Satan's score remains at 10.
Posted by Steve Wells at 8/24/2006 04:26:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
2 comments:
say no to christ said...
Hail Satan! hee hee
Mon Aug 28, 09:47:00 AM 2006
jake3988 said...
I mean, Satan isn't even responsible for those that go to hell. They're all sent there by God. That certainly would make God a lot worse off of a guy than satan. Satan just happens to be there.
Sun Sep 03, 11:36:00 AM 2006
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
24 August 2006Have ye saved all the women alive?
Oops! In my post, How many has God killed?, I forgot to include the Midianite massacre. But luckily David Plotz in Blogging the Bible reminded me.
Plotz calls it the "most hideous war crime in a Bible filled with them." And he's right about that. It is simply impossible to read this and still believe that it was inspired by a kind and loving God. Here's a brief summary, but if you haven't read the entire story, be sure to do so. (Numbers 31:1-35)
God tells Moses to "avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites." So "they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males," taking the women and children captive.
But when the officers returned from the battle, Moses was angry with them, saying, "Have ye saved all the women alive?" So he tells them to
...kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. (Numbers 31:17-18)
The soldiers do as they were told, killing all the women and children except for the virgins, of which there were 32,000. And since there must have been at least twice as many men, non-virgin women, and young boys, I used 90,000 for the Midianite massacre in the revised death toll.
The Brick Testament: Massacre of the Midianties
Posted by Steve Wells at 8/24/2006 10:25:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
2 comments:
Cactus Wren said...
Pat Robertson becomes absolutely frantic when confronted with these verses, insisting wildly that this mass slaughter of civilians and children was an act of mercy on God's part. Because this way, you see, he only had to send a few thousand to Hell. But if the Midianites had been allowed to live, they'd have bred, and a few years down the line he'd have had to send hundreds of thousands or even millions to Hell.
Sun Aug 27, 09:55:00 AM 2006
Ron said...
But then why save the virgin women. Shouldn't the die too if you want to "spare" them?
Wed Jan 16, 08:21:00 AM 2008
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
20 August 2006Some suggestions for the next Left Behind Game
The Left Behind video game has been criticized for being too violent. But Jerry Jenkins defends it by saying, "It's not as violent as the Old Testament." And he's right about that. It isn't.
So Jerry has some work to do in future revisions, because the game should be just as violent as the Bible. To achieve that goal, I suggest that the following scenes be included in the next Left Behind game.
Through the wrath of the LORD of hosts is the land darkened, and the people shall be as the fuel of the fire: no man shall spare his brother. And he shall snatch on the right hand, and be hungry; and he shall eat on the left hand, and they shall not be satisfied: they shall eat every man the flesh of his own arm. -- Isaiah 9:19-20
Their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. -- Isaiah 34:3
And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine. -- Isaiah 49:26
Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land ... with drunkenness. And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them. -- Jeremiah 13:13-14
And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend. -- Jeremiah 19:9
Therefore the fathers shall eat the sons in the midst of thee, and the sons shall eat their fathers. -- Ezekiel 5:10
I will not feed you: that that dieth, let it die; and that that is to be cut off, let it be cut off; and let the rest eat every one the flesh of another. -- Zechariah 11:9
Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. -- Zechariah 14:12
And it's important to show the kids how they should view all this mayhem. The Bible is very clear on the subject and this should be an integral part of the game.
The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked. -- Psalm 58:10
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street ... And they ... shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another. -- Revelation 11:8-10
Christian children should look forward to seeing their non-believing family, friends, and neighbors viciously killed, be willing to participate in the slaughter, and be eager to wash their feet in the freely-flowing blood of the unbelievers. Because the Left Behind game should not only be good clean fun; it should also help prepare the children for what is soon to come.
Posted by Steve Wells at 8/20/2006 09:57:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
12 comments:
zooplah said...
Absolutely. But blood is kind of sticky (or maybe mine just has too much sugar in it), so good luck with that, righteous dudes.
Sun Aug 20, 07:58:00 PM 2006
Paul Dueck said...
Umm... Your qoute from revelation is out of context. That specific verse refers to the actions of the world to the death of a pair of christian prophets.
Also, we use symbology all the time e.g. In sports we talk about people getting 'killed' or how a team was 'slaugtered' so most of the quotes from old testement prophets could be interpreted that way.
Finally, the verse from the Psalms is obviously not referring to all that sin. The doctrine of original sin would put paid to that. It might be better understood in light of the death of Zarqawi, the response of 'most' of the american world to that event closly resembles the actions of the 'rightous'
Mon Aug 21, 08:45:00 PM 2006
Tolerant666 said...
Now personally, I have always liked the Bible. However, I totally accecept that the God presented within it is not a nice being--in fact, there is almost no evidence in it that He--or She--or It--is a nice being at all. That said, I'm willing to accept that there COULD be a God, and I'd rather view the glass as half-full than half-empty anyways, so why shouldn't there be a good God? Having made that proposition, I would like the author to remember that most of the Bible (both the Old and the New Testaments)has been fabricated or removed. This has been done under orders from the clergy, but most of the time it has been a result of the scribes who actually copied down the thousands of codexes which we now know as "The Bible." Hence, I prefer to base my perception of God in terms of the positive principles that He--or She--or It--represents. In other words, I try to find the positive medium in all cultures; I'd like to think that the mere idea of a universally benevolent God would be healthier for world culture than the idea of a malevolent God. To me, as long as we try to be ethical--allowing for humor, inventiveness, and life lessons along the way, which means a lack of totally priggish behavior--than it doesn't matter whether or not God exists. If He--or She--or It--does in fact exist, than maybe God is pleased when we act all goody-two-shoes. If there isn't a God, why shouldn't we act as if there were a God?
Tue Aug 22, 03:33:00 PM 2006
zooplah said...
OK, Paul then what does killing and not giving the victims a proper burial represent in those verses?
And Tolerant, that's just silly. We should act morally, but there's nothing to suggest that we wouldn't anyway due to social and mental evolution independent of the fear of a mean ol' deity punishing us for all eternity.
Tue Aug 22, 06:49:00 PM 2006
Jake3988 said...
how about the versus about babies being ripped open?
That would prove the point.
Sun Aug 27, 12:38:00 PM 2006
? said...
zooplah- Paul already answered that. Also, a common misconception about Christianity is that getting into heaven depends on how good you are. Nope. Not that you should be bad and do whatever you want, because God doesn't want that either, but it probably won't affect your salvation as long as you accept the crucifixion of Jesus as the payment for the bad things you do.
Tolerant- what you said about the Bible being fabricated or fragmented is not even true. The Bible, especially the Gospels, is actually one of the best corroborated ancient books ever written. Much more so, in fact, than many other works that are accepted by scholars today, such as Plato's "Republic".
This site puts it pretty well: http://www.worldinvisible.com/apologet/bible.htm
If you don't want to read the whole thing (understandable), just glance at the green chart about 2/3 of the way down the page.
Mon Sep 04, 10:26:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
fuckin nerds lol
Wed Oct 25, 07:36:00 PM 2006
SJR said...
This statement is posted from an employee of Left Behind Games on behalf of Troy Lyndon, our Chief Executive Officer.
There has been in incredible amount of MISINFORMATION published in the media and in online blogs here and elsewhere.
Pacifist Christians and other groups are taking the game material out of context to support their own causes. There is NO “killing in the name of God” and NO “convert or die”. There are NO “negative portrayals of Muslims” and there are NO “points for killing”.
Please play the game demo for yourself (to at least level 5 of 40) to get an accurate perspective, or listen to what CREDIBLE unbiased experts are saying after reviewing the game at www.leftbehindgames.com/pages/controversy.com
Then, we’d love to hear your feedback as an informed player.
The reality is that we’re receiving reports everyday of how this game is positively affecting lives by all who play it.
Thank you for taking the time to be a responsible blogger.
Tue Jan 09, 10:05:00 AM 2007
NYC said...
Hey, with so many people having an opinion about this game, how many have actually played it? And what credibility do they have? Focus on the Family has publications which can set the record straight for everyone…at http://www.pluggedinonline.com/thisweekonly/a0002989.cfm
Mon Feb 05, 08:37:00 PM 2007
Tolerant666 said...
Wow. My comment was left a long time ago, when I was less cynical. Now? I think the Bible--especially the disturbing elements--is mostly myth with some history thrown in. Now, I think that interpreting the Bible is useless, since anyone can take anything from the Bible and distort it to their own twisted ends. That's all.
Wed May 09, 12:14:00 PM 2007
Mr. Serpent said...
Ah yes, look at all the specious apologetics above. Notice what I call the "Moderate Religionist Holy Trinity of apologies".
1. The "Out Of Context" lie.
2. The "Mistranslation" lie.
3. The "You Can't Understand the English Language Until You Are Possessed by the Holy Poltergeist" lie.
Ezekiel 6:10
"And they shall know that I am the LORD, and that I have not said in vain that I would do this evil unto them."
What "evil"?
Starving children until they eat their parents (Eze5:10) as a form of "wrathful" punishment; an action that gives this 'god'
"contentment".
'god' is saying that he is an evil-doer (Eze6:10) in at least 8 versions of the modern bible, and ra' (the transliterated Hebrew word for "evil") is the same word used for evil as in "knowledge of good and evil".
Sometimes a cigar is just a freakin' good smoke.
Mr. Serpent
Mon Sep 03, 02:36:00 PM 2007
TRiG said...
"1. The "Out Of Context" lie."
Not so. The passage of Revalation quoted is actually describing the glee of the wicked ones on the death of the righteous (the "two witnesses").
Really it is.
(Not to say that other bits of the Bible aren't disturbing, of course.)
Thu Nov 01, 05:45:00 AM 2007
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
11 August 2006God's death toll in the Bible, Book of Mormon, and Quran
In previous posts, I counted the number of people killed by God and Satan in the Bible: 2,821,364 and 10, respectively. That made me wonder how God's death toll in the Bible would compare with its rival holy books: the Quran and the Book of Mormon. Here's what I found.
(I'm only including killings that provide an exact number of victims.)
The Book of Mormon Who Passage Number Killed
Laban 1 Nephi 4:10-18 1
Sherem Jacob 7:15-20 1
Noah Mosiah 19:16-24 1
Lamanites Mosiah 9:18 3043
Nehor Alma 1:15 1
Amlicites Alma 2:16-19 12532
Amlici Alma 2:30-31-19 1
Korihor Alma 30:59 1
Zerahemnah Alma 44:12 1
dissenters Alma 51:29 4000
Amalickiah Alma 51:33-34 1
Lamanites Alma 57:14 2000
Ammoron Alma 62:36 1
Paanchi Helaman 1:7-8 1
Zemnarihah 3 Nephi 4:28 1
Nephite soldiers Mormon 6:9-15 230,000
Mighty men Ether 15:2 2,000,000
The Quran Who Passage Number Killed
Korah 28:79-81 1
Noah's wife and son 11:42 2
Lot's wife 66:10 1
And here's a summary of all three.
God's Death Toll
Bible 2,821,364
Book of Mormon 2,251,586
Quran 4
Posted by Steve Wells at 8/11/2006 07:47:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
49 comments:
zooplah said...
So, perhaps Islam is the religion of peace.
Sun Aug 13, 11:42:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Korihor was killed by the Zoramites, "a people who had separated themselves from the Nephites", and who in the very next chapter are said to be "perverting the ways of the Lord."
Just a minor comment. :)
Tue Aug 15, 02:30:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
you are so f. stupid.
Tue Aug 15, 02:50:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Interesting. Love to see your documentation for your Bible portion, or at least an explanation for the huge number.
You got linked from reddit.com, btw, so it would be in your best interests to prepare for the onslaught. :)
Tue Aug 15, 03:40:00 PM 2006
Mel said...
If you ask anyone of any of those religions (although some christians dissagree) they are worshiping the exact same God. Its just a matter of who's prophetic words are more heavily subscribed to. The book of Mormon, and Quran both include Jesus - they just don't consider him the divine son of God, rather another wise prophet. As a matter of fact... Mormons might call Jesus the son of God also actually. I'm not as knowledgable about their belief system.
Tue Aug 15, 03:42:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Christ is the central figure in the Book of Mormon too. Son, Savior, etc. In Islam, he's "just" another prophet of God/Allah.
The first thing this death toll stuff makes me think of is.. God by definition kills everyone when they get old enough. ;o As someone else mentioned, death in most religions isn't really that big of a deal.
Tue Aug 15, 04:04:00 PM 2006
Joao Marcus said...
It's funny that people find such stupid comments intelligent. I know, I know, it takes only a few religion-bashing stupid comments to become a reddit star.
Tue Aug 15, 04:29:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
It's funny how religious nuts are confronted with evidence of the filthy bloodthirsty lies they worship and all they can do is bleat and whine about "religion-bashing". It's your religion, Joao, it's right there in your holy book -- all the murder, rape, racism, infanticide and torture. And you think that's good and holy. You're sick.
Tue Aug 15, 04:35:00 PM 2006
Drew said...
not exactly a god.. but how-many did buddha kill? None I suppose. ; ) Also, what about Hindu Gods?
Tue Aug 15, 05:33:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Anonymous,
Would you rather read a rose-colored view of humanity and the world? or the reality that we are inherently selfish, and do all the things that go along with that?
Would you rather follow a religion that says "The world is peaceful, there is no death, or pain, and everything is just peachy"?
Tue Aug 15, 06:04:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Buddha is not a god, he is an enlightened being.
Tue Aug 15, 06:06:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
The Buddha supposedly killed a man with his bare hands to prevent that man from robbing 500 others.
Similar logic to Nephi (Mormon prophet) chopping off Laman's head so that nation's would not "dwindle in unbelief"
Tue Aug 15, 07:57:00 PM 2006
mian said...
Hmmm! You missed those killed by Bush-the God.
mian
Tue Aug 15, 07:58:00 PM 2006
zooplah said...
Why do so many of you post anonymously? Jesus, just enter your frigging name or handle! With all these anonymouses replying to each other, it's confusing as to who's replying to whom.
"Would you rather read a rose-colored view of humanity and the world? or the reality that we are inherently selfish, and do all the things that go along with that?"
We are. According to Christianity we're all sinful and have to believe in Jesus to become as benevolent as God. But if God is such a murderous monster, aren't we already above him? The truth is that we are selfish creatures, but we've evolved since the Bible was written and so the biblical god made in man's image is just a barbaric, outdated entity.
Tue Aug 15, 10:14:00 PM 2006
mirza said...
Oh looksie, I thought Anonymous was the no-sign-up option. There's no real need for the Anonymous radio button if the fields in Other are all optional.. Blame Blogger.
BTW. Neither the Quran, nor the Book of Mormon are specifically 'rival holy books' to the Bible.
Wed Aug 16, 01:55:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours -
Stephen Roberts
Wed Aug 16, 03:50:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
Bible-New testamet:
SAVED: EVERYONE!!!
top that
Wed Aug 16, 08:26:00 AM 2006
the serrach said...
so, just a technical question. are you manually thumbing through the bible to do these counts?
lotsa work. keep it up.
Wed Aug 16, 01:23:00 PM 2006
Shaun said...
You missed one.
Sherem in Jacob 7 in the book of mormon.
I find all this talk about who God has killed very interesting. First, we must remember that all who are born will die. Second, that time in between has been alotted for us to prepare to return to God.
The really noteworthy thing is Christ. Because Christ lead a sinless life he was able to atone for our sins and allow us to overcome spiritual death. Because he was the son of God he was able to overcome physical death. These things were done so that we then could be recovered from these forms of death.
All who die will live again.
When God kills he is only removing the spirits of his children from their bodies. They only had these bodies in the first place because it was his plan to give them bodies so that they could learn and become more like him.
They are not dead as to conciousness, they are simply without bodies. Something that would have happened eventually anyway.
The victory of Christ is not only that we will all receive new bodies, but that the new bodies will be perfect and never fail us.
God only slays the wicked because he wants to maximize the number of his children that want to return to him and follow him. Besides, many people who are considered wicked are that way because they learned it from their parents or decided to not follow the correct teachings of their parents.
He has given us agency. He can't make us choose, but he can stop us from causing others to follow our incorrect traditions.
Now, if only the true nature of God were more generally understood...
Thu Aug 17, 08:10:00 PM 2006
Steve Wells said...
the serrach said... "so, just a technical question. are you manually thumbing through the bible to do these counts?"
No, I used the SAB, SABoM, and SAQ to get them. (Of course I had to create them first!)
Fri Aug 18, 09:25:00 AM 2006
Steve Wells said...
Shaun said...
You missed one.
Sherem in Jacob 7 in the book of mormon.
Thanks Shaun. I'ved added it.
Fri Aug 18, 09:27:00 AM 2006
Draconiz said...
I don't know if anyone will read this but this is just to clarify some issues.
buddha killed a guy to prevent him from robbing 500 other,that happened in a previous life (buddhists believe in reincarnation) before he became buddha. So in effect, it's an unenlightened man that killed the thief not he buddha himself(the word buddha means an enlighted being).
Actually in the scriptures, Buddha admitted that he committed many muders in previous lives,and went on to say that he suffered greatly the result of his karma,for he is a man and subjected to the laws of causes and effects just like everyone else.
Thu Aug 24, 12:52:00 AM 2006
FerroMancer said...
Shaun, while I do not share your religious beliefs, I sincerely respect the peace and dignity you display before those of us of 'lesser faith'.
Personally, I believe that Jesus was one of the best philosophers that has ever lived, and if nothing else is said about him, that should be said. I don't believe that he was the Son of God any more than the rest of us (which isn't to say that he wasn't the Son of God, though; think about that), but if any of the stories about him are true, then he was, at the least, a good person.
I bet those were as few and far between as they are today.
For the most part, I believe that most religions started by ancient parents without scientific answers that got tired of their kids' limitless questions, and it all got blown out of proportion a few generations later. Still, if God does exist (and who's to say that He doesn't?), I don't think He's (or She's, or It's, or ThEy'Re, whatever) the soul-weighing type.
But I guess we'll all find out eventually. In the meantime, I'm just going to take some of the advice of this really nice guy from 2000 years ago and be kind to my fellow man. :)
Thu Aug 24, 03:06:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Son, I will pass you a great truth that can be read two ways: "If the Bible is only human lore, and not divine truth, then we have no real answer to those who say, let's pick the best out of all religions and blend it all into Pan-Deism - one world religion with one god made out of many". J. Sidlow Baxter, The Most Critical Issue (1991)[http://www.pwmi.org/tcf002.htm]
Sat Sep 02, 03:52:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Islam a religion of peace???
R U 4 REAL???
Christian suicide Bombers : 0
Islamic suicide Bombers :????????????
Sun Sep 10, 08:49:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
Well...
Islam teaches peace...its the people that is not.
Sad really.
Thu Sep 14, 02:20:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Islam teaches peace? Then why the hundreds of mentions of tormented hellfire for non-believers (and Jews and Christians)? So peace for those that believe, the rest; searing pain, flesh peeling hell, boiling water and on. Where do you "Islam=peace" people get off? Do you think we can't read?
What exactly is your idea of peace?
Wed Sep 27, 03:18:00 AM 2006
tsoert said...
"Christian suicide Bombers : 0
Islamic suicide Bombers :???????????? "
and the many thousands of knights from europe who invaded asia and eastern europe were doing what exactly. slaying the unbeliever i think. pretty much the same thing
Fri Oct 27, 05:50:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
Completely ignoring your prophet's teachings and example,ie. Jesus. Is not the same as following to the letter your prophet's teaching and example,ie. Mohammed
People killed by Jesus=0
People killed by Mohammed= 1000's
The more one studies and believes the Koran, the more violent they become toward anybody that does not believe.
Islam is not peace.
Islam is submission to Allah's will as told by Mohammed.
There are peaceful passages in the Koran, but the "verse of the sword" was one of the last passages and the Muslim scholars ruled long ago that the later passages void the earlier ones.
"Allah gave us something better" is how they explain the apparent contradiction.
Please read the Koran for yourself if you really want to understand this "religion".
Mon Nov 06, 05:51:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Anonymous supporter of Pandeism -- God made the Universe; God IS the Universe; God doesn't play an active role in the Universe, ergo God never killed nobody.
Wed Nov 08, 01:17:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
...and here's a great definition of Pandeism culled from Warren B. Sharpe's "Philosophy for the Serious Heretic: The Limitations of Belief and the Derivation of Natural Moral Principles" (2002):
God didn't create the universe, but God became the universe. Then he forgot that he became the universe. Why would God do this? Basically, for entertainment. You create a universe, and that in itself is very exciting. But then what? Should you sit back and watch this universe of yours having all the fun? No, you should have all the fun yourself. To accomplish this, God transformed into the whole universe. God is the Universe, and everything in it. But the universe doesn't know that because that would ruin the suspense. The universe is God's great drama, and God is the stage, the actors, and the audience all at once. The title of this epic drama is "The Great Unknown Outcome." Throw in potent elements like passion, love, hate, good, evil, free will; and who knows what will happen? No one knows, and that is what keeps the universe interesting. But everyone will have a good time. And there is never really any danger, because everyone is really God, and God is really just playing around.
Wed Nov 08, 01:18:00 PM 2006
2.2 said...
Heh! That's quite interesting actually. Good job calculating all that.
"Islam teaches peace? Then why the hundreds of mentions of tormented hellfire for non-believers (and Jews and Christians)? So peace for those that believe, the rest; searing pain, flesh peeling hell, boiling water and on. Where do you "Islam=peace" people get off? Do you think we can't read?"
Well... Bible, Quran and Book of mormon all say that people who do not believe their particular brand of religion will suffer. -_- Neither of them can claim to take the high road so to speak. They're all rather violent, intolerant and cruel. (Ofcourse I am biased, since I'm one of those poor suckers who are supposedly damned simply for being. *sigh*)
Sun Jan 21, 03:16:00 AM 2007
RecycleUtah said...
Hey! Can't we all "just get along?"
As I tell my friends, I believe in the basic teachings of Buddha, Jesus, Mother Teresa and others that teach respect for life and human equality. People might want to think for themselves and question religious beliefs they grew up with. I'm a spiritual trying to live the basic teachings of Jesus, Buddha, and others. Most importantly: I choose how to think and feel, NOT because a religion or person says I should think a certain way! As long as I'm not hurting people or animals and I respect the same, I'm living a heaven on earth, so to speak.
Have a good one! Aloha & Namaste
Jeff
Mon Feb 26, 11:20:00 AM 2007
Thomas said...
This is a simplistic and shoddy attempt to qualify one religion over another in terms of which is more peaceful.
Number of people killed in a book of religion does not necessarily qualify that particular religion as violent.
I personally believe Islam is more barbaric and evil than Christianity or Judaism (all religions suck, but Islam is one of the worst.)
Sat Mar 10, 03:08:00 PM 2007
fatalis said...
This is a simplistic and shoddy attempt to qualify one religion over another in terms of which is more peaceful.
Oh, really? Please quote from the post where exactly does it say that.
Wed Jun 13, 12:18:00 PM 2007
Spike Spiegel said...
Hi,
Isn't what you think and the view you make of your own religion that matters? Anyone can tell me the point of proving ANYTHING by means of the writings on the Holy Books? Is everybody playing dumb in here?
God's death toll in the bible = 2million+
God's death toll in the mormon book = 20000+/-
God's death toll in the quran = 4
Ok. Neat. So?
Tue Sep 04, 03:28:00 AM 2007
leo said...
The problem is not religion, teachers or teachings. The problems is the belief/unbelief, because when you have a belief/unbelief that you think it's the 'rigth' one, then you seat on top of others and try to convince them to join your belief/unbelief system either by will or by force.
Same thing happen in other areas of human interaction like politics you believe in X system I believe in another system then we figth each other because of our diference of belief.
I'm not gonna say anything about the religious beliefs that fall on hands of goverments as a political system frame, you guys know what happen next.
If you have a belief/unbelief that works for you, keep it for yourself, then nobody will have problems regarding diference of beliefs/unbeliefs.
Sat Sep 08, 06:52:00 PM 2007
Kevin said...
Of course, you havn't listed the hundreds of knights, preists, suicide bombers, etc. that have killed and/or tortured thousands of people in the last few thousand years.
"I personally believe Islam is more barbaric and evil than Christianity or Judaism (all religions suck, but Islam is one of the worst.) "
Really? Can you give a reason? By the way, I'm guessing that you weren't raised in the middle east. Were you?
Wed Sep 12, 06:02:00 PM 2007
Asana Bodhitharta said...
Life and death both come from God, so your point is extremely invalid.
Sun Dec 16, 11:21:00 AM 2007
tuccia said...
Perhaps life and death come from God, but that would only be valid if there really is a God, so it appears that your statement is based on an assumption which may only be as valid as an opinion?
Sat Apr 12, 07:48:00 AM 2008
tuccia said...
I think the answer is not in the numbers killed (by God), but in the reality that men use religion as a basis for control. Followers kill others, as well as themselves, for theologies that they have bought into heart and soul. People who want to run the world will use the belief of these followers to the extent that they can, regardless of their personal belief.
Sat Apr 12, 07:57:00 AM 2008
DG Nanak. said...
o yea defintly 'islam is the religion of peace' because no muslim has ever killed in the name of religion...abrahamic religions are a joke. hatred, ignorance, killing, is widespread throughout them, they contradict science, we know no reasonable person can possibly follow every word (though it is the 'word of god'). yet we continue to take them seriously, its sad i know.
Tue Apr 15, 07:39:00 AM 2008
Kingston said...
well, it was God punishing them, and a majority of those aren't really counted as "deaths", more like Him taking people to New Jerusalem(Heaven)
Mon Sep 29, 02:48:00 PM 2008
MeCHtronika said...
Actually the death toll is much larger in the Book of Mormon. God allowed the Lamanite nation to over-run his chosen Nephite people because they didn't go home-teaching enough. The Book of Mormon describes the Nephite nation rivaling the size of Roman Empire at its peek before being utterly destroyed.
Of course these numbers themselves aren't something to get worked up over. After all we are discussing pieces of fiction.
I guess the rub comes when people use this fiction to rationalize their world view and thrust it upon others.
Mon Jun 15, 02:55:00 PM 2009
Steve Wells said...
Yeah, you're probably right about that, McCHtronika.
I'd be interested in your estimates for the numbers of people killed by God (or inspired by God) in the Book of Mormon. I'm too busy right now going through God's killings in the Bible to do justice to the Book of Mormon.
Mon Jun 15, 03:40:00 PM 2009
adnandakingkhalil said...
To be fair the Quran mentions several other wide-scale killings by Allah:
1) The people of Ad
2) The People of Thamud
3) The People after the Queen of Sheba
4) The Dwellers of Rass
5) The Folk of Madyan (Midian)
6) The People of Abraham
7) The Inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah
8) The People who died in the Flood.
9) The Children of Israel who worshiped the Golden Calf.
10) Samir (The builder of Calf according to the Quran).
11) Pharaoh and his people who went after Moses and the Children of Israel.
Never discount Allah, he can be as evil as his counterpart, Yahweh.
Sun Aug 30, 07:57:00 AM 2009
Linus said...
Note that the Mormons consider the Bible to be the word of God and the BoM is just some kind of addendum/clarification, which brings the death toll for the LDS god up to 2,410,999. I don't know what status the Christian bible has in Islam. The Quran completely overrides the bible, does it?
Wed Jan 19, 05:21:00 PM 2011
slrman said...
Let's not forget the christian god killed nearly every living thing on earth, plants, animals, even fish. If the flood was freshwater, being rain, that seems reasonable, all the salt water creatures would die.
That requires that we ignore that there isn't enough water on earth to cover all of the mountains or even a sizable number of them. Nor the fact that the 5,000,000+ creatures and food for a year for them would n0t fit on a 450 wooden boat.
Nor has a wood boat that size ever been built, even using modern techniques that could survive even a moderate sea.
Here's how "holy" books try to look accurate:
On the 11th of September, 2001, two commercial aircraft flew into the twin towers of the World Trade Center in New York City, killing thousands.
Some people believe that this was an act of terrorism by an Islamic fundamentalist organization.
It was really the power of my god (he who must not be named) directing those planes to warn the people of the USA and the world to abandon their wicked ways and praise the only true god.
The first sentence is unquestionable historic fact. The last sentence is a delusional lie but is impossible to prove to be false. The “truth” of all “holy books” is based upon this same technique.
Wed Oct 17, 03:33:00 PM 2012
Absolam et al said...
Ok raise your hand if you will make this deal.
Spend two years in a minimum security federal prison and you can have 750 Million dollars.
Ok, now die for three days and you can live for all eternity.
Did he really die for your sins? To die is to not know what is going to happen. But he die with the promise of eternity in front of him.
Fri May 31, 07:48:00 AM 2013
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
11 August 2006How are Jesus and Satan alike?
They are both like a lion.
Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. -- Revelation 5:5
Your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour. -- 1 Peter 5:8
They are the morning star (Venus).
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. -- Revelation 22:16
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! -- Isaiah 14:12
They existed before the universe was created.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. -- John 1:1
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? ... When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? -- Job 38:4-7
They are sons of God.
The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God -- Mark 1:1
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. -- Job 1:6, 2:1
Posted by Steve Wells at 8/11/2006 12:09:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
17 comments:
Anonymous said...
Well, they're both angels/sons of God, aren't they?
The better question is: How are Jesus and Satan different?
Tue Aug 15, 03:31:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Jesus is the only begotten son of God and savior, he's not an angel.
Lucifer is an evil angel and he's just a servant.
Tue Sep 05, 03:24:00 PM 2006
Steve Wells said...
Anonymous said...
"Well, they're both angels/sons of God, aren't they?"
Yes. Thanks for pointing that out. I've added it to the list.
Sun Oct 01, 11:48:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
Actually, I am pretty sure that the devil was not an angel. The aforementioned quote from Isaiah is talking about the King of Babylon, referencing the Greek myth of Phaeton, son of Helios. Also, the word Satan means accuser, adversary, or foe in Hebrew. The Angel Satan was in fact a member of God's court charged with prosecuting those humans who had strayed from his will.
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=270&letter=S
Mon Dec 18, 04:23:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
The pre-incarnate Christ (Metatron) was the lord of hosts (ie: angels). Thus if Satan claims to be the almighty (which he supposedly according to the bible does- and hates being called Satan for that precise reason) then it is natural he will want to usurp Christ's title. Unless you believe Christ is Satan and Satan is God which is unbelievably ridiculous.
Tue Dec 19, 06:39:00 PM 2006
whitelightdream said...
Jesus is God incarnate.
He is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Satan has no power unless you let him have yours. He is a tool of God, one of his creations and has a right to exist untill God thinks otherwise.
Collosians Ch1 Vs5-20
5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
6 Which is come unto you, as in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as also in you, since the day ye heard, and new the grace of God in truth:
7 As ye also learned of Epaphras our dear fellowservant, who is for you a faithful minister of Christ;
8 Who also declared unto us your love in the Spirit.
9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and in increasing in the knowledge of God;
11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorius power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which has made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who has deliverd us from the power of darkness, and has translated into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the ivisible God the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all he might have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased that in him should all fullness dwell;
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, whether things in earth, or things in heaven.
Tue Dec 26, 06:23:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
What I want to know is why The 'divine family', if you will, has such bad luck with best friends, ie: Satan & Judas. I mean, GOD, is omnipotent. Surely he could deal with Satan, unless two things:
1The LORD GOD is not quite as omnipotent as you think.
2HE wanted to have an opposing force. In some gosples that have been left out of the Bible Judas was the only one Jesus trusted to betray him, as none of the other disiples could do him that favour.
Mon Jan 15, 02:43:00 AM 2007
Anonymous said...
Satan is one of the sons of god (= the angels), but Jesus is the son of god. There's a little difference between...
Fri Feb 02, 04:57:00 PM 2007
[C]Arrowman said...
Perhaps Satan isn't evil. He gave us selfconsciousness. So we are free from Gods will. God cannot control us.
But i don't think there isn't/aren't a god/gods or devils beside some humans.
Wed Mar 14, 02:59:00 PM 2007
Anonymous said...
jesus devil gods demons who cares?!! they are all equal or in other words evil just look at the world they are all( if they exist)
guilty of wars violence fundamentalism pornography(oh god god oh god yes what the eck they are making sex with who? i said)
the bible is the most evil book i ever read jesus is the great liar that ever exist so many contracditions jesus is the number one guilty of many freaks out there and for the centuries that past and come
Tue Apr 24, 09:01:00 AM 2007
ipiphinizion said...
people would be wise to note the connections and have serious doubts- Jesus actually fits all o the criteria in Reveltions for the anti- christ - not anti-jesus- anti - christ....non believers of the man Jesus rejoice - for truly I say to you - it is you who shall escape the wrath that Awaits...PS ever notice how Satanism didnt exist - u know black masses inverted crosses etc . until Jesus appearance - ever hear of a Jew being possessed in the times since J- mans advent? Things that make u go Hum?
Thu Aug 02, 09:23:00 AM 2007
Tim said...
Wild Hypothesis: Satan Christ
There is little doubt that Yahweh (as described in the Old Testament/Torah) was a psychopath. A lot of christians skip over the nastier parts, or rationalise them away. You have to, if you want to believe he's the good guy. Either that or take the dodgy 'God defines good' route.
He appears to have created man for the sole purpose of worshipping him, intending to keep them as unknowing slaves. He takes great delight in the torment and slaughter of millions, both personally and by proxy, ordering the Israelites to do his (very) dirty work.
As far as I can see, he only comes out smelling like roses because he managed to kill everyone who wouldn't suck up to him, then forced the survivors to write books saying how great he was for killing babies. Early spin-doctoring.
Satan opposes this from the beginning, when he frees Eve from the slavery of ignorance. In fact, he is so devoted to his fight that he becomes known only as 'the adversary'.
Unfortunately, with Yahweh's PR machine working overtime, He has declared Himself to be king of good, which makes his enemy evil by default.
Eventually, though, Satan realises that as long as humanity is being suckered in by Yahweh's PR, his work is largely futile. He has to do something *spectacular*.
And so he disguises himself as a man & cheats a little to fulfill some old prophecies so he looks like the son of Yahweh. Spends a few years preaching messages of love, peace and understanding, exactly the opposite of what Yahweh wants people to hear. And, to break Yahweh's fear-based regime, he decides to throw in something bigger and scarier. Break Yahweh's rules, he'll kill you. Break mine, you'll be tortured forever.
Of course, Yahweh managed to undo some of Satan Christ's work through Saul of Tarsus, but that's another story.
Anyway, I'm just spinning crap here (as I'm sure you noticed), but I have managed to produce a story that's at least as consistent as the bible, and explained the massive character change between OT & NT gods, and the inconsistencies about hell. And it means you can worship Christ without having to condone atrocities like Saul & The Amalekites, or the heart-hardening showboating of Exodus, or my personal favourite verse- Psalms 137:9
It's a good thing I'm already excommunicate.
Fri Feb 01, 06:30:00 AM 2008
EATINGVIRGINSISGOOD said...
Christians, nice try, but very refutable and illogical...
Makes absolutely no sense.
Tue Jun 10, 08:04:00 AM 2008
Marshall said...
History proves that Jesus IS Satan.
Tue Jul 29, 01:53:00 AM 2008
Jared said...
"Satan is one of the sons of god (= the angels), but Jesus is the son of god. There's a little difference between..."
Haha! That's like some type of Murray episode.
See God's got a lot of kids sure, but he neva loved none of them girls, and they was all sluts anyway. None of them babies is his! (depending the result of a DNA test) but nahhhh Mary, he loves that girl and stayed with her. There fore aint jesus the only son he got?! Gods got kids, sure, but jesus is the kid
haha pardon my urban grammer up there
Sat Nov 01, 10:44:00 PM 2008
Denis Poltavets said...
1. Jesus commanded devils to go out to the pigs.
2. He asked us to eat flesha dn dring blood
3. He talk to Satan and rejected his offers.
4. He went to Hell to release I-do-not-remember-whom.
5. He claimed Himself to be the Son of God.
6. ...
Mon Apr 13, 06:03:00 AM 2009
Berend de Boer said...
See my comments at http://www.berenddeboer.net/sab/1pet/5.html#v8
Score for Steve Wells: 1 out of 4.
Tue Feb 09, 10:18:00 AM 2010
Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
09 August 2006Who has killed more, Satan or God?
And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. Job 1:7
In a previous post, I counted the number of people that were killed by God in the Bible. I came up with 2,476,633, which, of course, greatly underestimates God's total death toll, since it only includes those killings for which specific numbers are given. No attempt was made to include the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc., with which the good book is filled. Still, 2 million is a respectable number even for world class killers.
But how does this compare with Satan? How many did he kill in the Bible?
Well I can only find ten, and even these he shares with God, since God allowed him to do it as a part of a bet. I'm talking about the seven sons and three daughters of Job.
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job ... And there were born unto him seven sons and three daughters.
...
And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? Then Satan answered the LORD ... put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.
...
And there was a day when his sons and his daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house...And, behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. -- Job 1:1-19
So it seems that both Satan and God share the blame (or the credit) for these killings. If so, then the tally would be:
killings
God 2,476,633
Satan 10
No contest.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Update
I've tried to assign numbers to the un-numbered killings in the Bible. You can see the detailed list here.
The results were even more lopsided: 25 million (plus or minus a few million) for God; 60 for Satan.
Here is a more complete table.
numbered killings estimated total killings
God 2,476,633 25 million
Satan 10 60
Much more information about God's killings, with a chapter on each of the 135 killing events, can be found int the book:
Drunk With Blood: God's killings in the Bible
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by Steve Wells at 8/09/2006 04:58:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
229 comments:
1 – 200 of 229 Newer› Newest» Anonymous said...
Perhaps Satanists are worshipping the lesser of two evils? ;)
-K
Wed Aug 09, 11:16:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Well, most satanists worship themselves... so it depends.
(I know that you're kidding BTW)
Fri Aug 11, 10:40:00 AM 2006
zooplah said...
Satan is the unsung hero of the Bible. Courageously standing up against God's tyrrany, evilness and injustice. Too bad he was over his head.
Fri Aug 11, 09:37:00 PM 2006
mimetist said...
Then... Satan is Good.
The only proof of the evil intentions of Satan is the Word of God... a Killer of Mases...
Just think about it...
Tue Aug 15, 11:22:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
Satan cannot take lives on earth without God's permission. Be thankful that he doesn't let him out for a free for all.
Tue Aug 15, 12:45:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
who said dieing or being killed was such a bad thing?
maybe god was doing them a favor.
Tue Aug 15, 01:37:00 PM 2006
Anton said...
You raise a good point. The only difference is that Satan didn't also create the ones he killed, whereas God did. Does that bring God back to even Stevens?
Tue Aug 15, 01:51:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
i think the horrific spelling in these comments is a greater evil than satan.
Tue Aug 15, 01:51:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
oh this only proves that even in medieval times when this stuff was documented,
killing was not considered that evil when done by the establishment.
just as it is now.
Tue Aug 15, 02:14:00 PM 2006
Caleb Horton said...
Keep in mind the Bible was written a long time ago long after the events had already occured. Back then, people more than likely believed natural disasters were sent from God above. If that is truly the case.. do you feel the Tsunami was sent from God or just a natural disaster?
The bible was written by textbook authors. They heard the stories from a friend who heard them from a friend. How many times to you think the story was changed before it hit paper.
Tue Aug 15, 02:47:00 PM 2006
Enes said...
Satan using peoples to kill someone, because he can not do that. But GOD dont need any agent to it.
Kabil was the first corpse of it. If you want to see last corpses, Look at the Lebonan news's.
Tue Aug 15, 02:50:00 PM 2006
RaisinBread said...
Satan gets you to the point where you just kill yourself, or to where you just kill someone else.
Tue Aug 15, 03:21:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
God gets to take credit for every death and every life given, considering it's his power and priveledge alone to do so (he says we all hafta die anyway), and ...
Some say that the number of those who are alive and have lived in the past number about 10 billion, perhaps an easy 20 billion if you count the miscarriages and abortions. (some say)....
Then this would make God the biggest mass murderer of all time, having credit for every life and every death. Big :-)
Tue Aug 15, 03:30:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
The horrific spelling is typical of Blogspot comments, sadly.
Tue Aug 15, 03:43:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
According to the Bible, specifically I Corinthians 15, death itself came into the world because of sin (the sin of Adam in the Garden of Eden). The great message of the Bible, however, is that God sent his only son, Jesus, to die on a cross and in doing so pay the debt of the world's sins (Philippians 2:7-9, and everyone's favorite, John 3:16).
Tue Aug 15, 03:54:00 PM 2006
Helge said...
The great message of the Bible is that God had to do some sort of magic? Send his magic son to die to solve some problem he had created himself? I mean, it played OK 2000 years ago, but aren't we all a little bit more grown up now?
A better story is that God figured he'd show us that there's a way to live without resorting to being a bastard. So that's what he did, until we nailed him to a tree. And then started telling some magical bullshit story about the whole thing, completely missing the point of it all. I wonder if God doesn't wish he hadn't wasted his time...
The story of Job, incidentally, makes a lot more sense if you think of it as saying that *we* know the difference between good and evil, without the need for the intercession of God. Then instead of indicting God as some kind of bastard who plays silly games with the lives of people, it's God telling Satan, no, seriously, people know what's right and what's wrong, or at least my man Job over there does. I don't have to tell him.
That is until the end, where Job gets the idea that once you've helped God prove a point you're home free. That's when God finally uses his LART.
Not that I believe in God, or that I think the Old Man of the Old Testament wasn't a right bastard 99% of the time. Just saying, you know.
Tue Aug 15, 04:16:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Here, I made a graphic visualizing your results
Tue Aug 15, 05:36:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Who here honestly believes in a 2000 year old book containing dragons, giants, and people walking on water, written by dusty old men who didn't know what science was?
Tue Aug 15, 07:41:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
THis coming from someone who watches Zena, Princess Warrior religiously.
Tue Aug 15, 08:42:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Wrong, and you're being defensive.
More to the point, people watching Zena aren't going to ACTUALLY BELIEVE in that person fighting monsters. They understand that it's FICTION, which is what people who read 2000 year old tales of magic should realize too.
Tue Aug 15, 10:13:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Al principio hubo una guerra entre Dios y Satanas. Dios perdió y fué enviado a un lugar llamado infierno. Satanás se hizo pasar por Dios porque necesita de la fuerza de los creyentes para seguir existiendo, como cualquier otro ser divino. Por eso en el mundo hay tanto asesino: son del agrado de "Dios/Satanás" y sus mayores esbirros son los gobernantes que declaran guerras, como los presidentes de EEUU e Israel... :oP
Tue Aug 15, 11:31:00 PM 2006
martin said...
There's a great difference between killing and murder, one being that killing is not necessarily an evil or inexcusable act, whereas murder is.
As for what someone said earlier regarding the fact that God created the people before killing them, and is therefore in some way responsible... St Augustine spent a long time pondering this, the origin of evil. He came to the conclusion, a logical one, that evil is the result of turning away from God. Free will allows for this.
All hypothetical, if you even believe all that stuff. As an atheist it's all fun to chat about
Wed Aug 16, 12:41:00 AM 2006
Embercom said...
Sin is the #1 killer of man. We have condemned ourselves to death. And don't blaim Adam and Eve, you would have grabbed that fruit too.
Wed Aug 16, 12:48:00 AM 2006
incadiz said...
perhaps they are the same person ;)....
Wed Aug 16, 01:06:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
Why did god gave us free will, if by using it we hurt and kill our selves and others. Is it not like giving a baby a razor blade and then blaming it when it cuts itself? It sounds a little bit perverse to me?
Wed Aug 16, 02:17:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours - Stephen Roberts
Wed Aug 16, 03:25:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
In a nutshell.
Of course being aware of semantics (The study and or science of meaning in language/languages) comes into play.
The language which is being used to think in, speak-in creates the reality one percieves. Often overlooked.
Death is not a concept in all languages. Science: the law of conservation of energy and movement, implies that te death concept, is for one a semantic issue.
For reason everything is energy: thoughts, dreams, cars, food, water, etc. etc.
As the English language lacks the use of the full range of this energy in the sense of the electromagnetic spectrum, in common usage realities are also incomplete.
In general: the colours of the rainbow are used, yet the parts of the electromagnetic spectrum, such as: infra-red, ultra-violet, gamma- and x-rays are not in the realities created by using the English language.
Wed Aug 16, 03:48:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
Necessary evil my ass..
I'll rather give my ticket back.
Wed Aug 16, 04:02:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
Anonymous:
Of course not to forget that science has the law of conservation of energy and momentum and energy is transformable. In order to apply this law, energy has to be indestructible. And as we are energy, we are also indestructible, we do transform though. (Baby, toddler, teenager, etc.)
Time also is a concept available in some languages; the language of the Hopi-nation lacks this concept, which is actually a description of movement. In short, we cannot walk into the same house twice, as energy changes constantly and the house and we are energy.
Wed Aug 16, 04:09:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
Language is also used to have people believe all kinds of things and thus being able to govern them.
The phrase: “Avoid comparing apples with peers”, “ A comparison always goes with a limb” or similar, should ring a bell.
The issue with comparing is, one forms opinions. And these opinions are mistaken for the truth. A prime example is the financial world. All financial institute are based on making comparisons, albeit often sub-consciously. The financial records are not truths, but opinions. For instance comparing the buying-price with the selling-price, to determine for instance the so-called ‘profit’ or ‘loss’. Both profit and loss are expression of opinions, not truths! Enron being one example of people believing that they can make a profit and being sent on a wild goose chase. In the moment, for instance Apple computers is also having differences of opinions with the SEC. Same use of language, comparisons and beliefs of people.
Wed Aug 16, 04:53:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
Also having an Almighty God, Great Spirit who all at once has a 'Satan' who is even more powerful, as this ‘Satan’ can defy the Almighty, is a ridiculous idea. And it is a comparison and a sales pitch of the Room Catholic Church. The RC church thus gives itself power, by selling they can help people from going to hell. As long as people believe this, the churches business is fine.
This is actually a way to govern people. The divide and conquer principle, applied. By keeping them ignorant and letting the confuse opinions with the truth, by conditioning them to compare. And thus using education to have humans sub-consciously compete with each other and thus those who govern, have a pleasant life-style.
Wed Aug 16, 06:08:00 AM 2006
xamox said...
Sorry to be the one to tell everyone this, but no matter what you say and what you do to try and convince the average christian that christ didn't exist, they still won't believe you. If you could prove that god didn't exist on paper, it wouldn't matter either. God exist because people BELIEVE he does, and that's why it is called a belief system. It's funny to think that with the statistics right in front of their face, from the book they believe in, yet they are still so ignorant. Maybe that's why the saying goes, "The Wrath of God", because if you don't believe in what he says than either he or some of his crazy followers will hunt you down and burn your ass at the stake. You bunch o' witches!
Nice Article!
Wed Aug 16, 06:11:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
The issue is, that we can believe. Believing is seeing. Quantum physics can be used as tool to prove that focussing consciouness creates the illusion of matter.
Wed Aug 16, 06:21:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
Statistics are based on opinions, just as bookkeeping is. Can be manipulated endlessly.
It is about unconditional love for oneself. One has to love oneself unconditionally!
After al, how is one to be aware of unconditional love, if one lacks the experience? Trying to squeeze it out of some else is useless as the other equally lacks the experience.
Actually this is romance, not love. And even using the game of scrabble one can endlessly create new words to label them as conditions, which are to be met. An endless effort and one ends-up judging oneself. Judge not, for as thou judges one will be judged (by oneself as one hears oneself talking to oneself)
Unconditional love for oneself also avoids making comparisons, and thus creating opinions and confusing them with the truth.
Wed Aug 16, 06:34:00 AM 2006
Noumenon said...
The phrase: “Avoid comparing apples with peers”, “ A comparison always goes with a limb” or similar, should ring a bell.
Dang, that is some confusing spelling! It's actually supposed to be "Avoid comparing apples with pears" and "A comparison always goes with a limp." They still almost make sense the way you spelled them, that's why they're so confusing.
Wed Aug 16, 06:43:00 AM 2006
Jacob said...
This issue can be summed up by considering what the Bible has to say about death. The introduction of sin into a perfect environment (i.e., the "fall" in Genesis) also introduced death. Ultimately, the very fact that mankind can die is a result of Satan's work, therefore all death results from him. Even deaths that are attributed to God - anthropomorphically, of course - are a result of sin, and thus only righteous judgement on God's part.
Tallying opposing death tolls really proves nothing more than a lack of understanding concerning the nature of life, death, good and evil.
Wed Aug 16, 07:53:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
Noumenon,
Thanks, English is not my native language. This situation, also does offer perspectives.
The Bible also has this issue. ‘The Book of J” is one book that deals with the effect of language in regard to translating the Bible, or other books for that matter.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0802141919
That is also why there is a multitude of translations of the Bible. German translations, in multitude differ in meaning to the English translations. Mind you the Bible, for one mentions this phenomenon –The Tower of Babel- comes to mind.
Having differences of opinion is unavoidable. We simply just don’t control. Hence the next step, a difference of opinion, is no issue when it comes to matters of the heart.
Life and death are not two different states of being, but different aspects of the same sate of being. Otherwise the laws of energy would dysfunction, which the do not.
Wed Aug 16, 08:24:00 AM 2006
webmaster said...
Satan doesn't have the power to kill people, but to induce them to kill themself, or to kill others, including their fgamilies, Satan is the one who tells you to do that things, but you are the one that take the action.
That's the reason that Satan only has 10 kills in the bible.
but if you notice, i.e. sodoma and gomorra were burned because satan induced that behavior (killing, drinking, orgys) to the people's minds.
Satan's most dangerous power is to fools people's mind.
Wed Aug 16, 10:00:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
Seriously, people are debating over this?
The Bible is fiction, retards.
Wed Aug 16, 10:17:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
It is all in the mind.
Were else would thoughts be?
Wed Aug 16, 10:44:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
If it is all fiction and in our minds then why waste all of this time and energy discussing something that can be dismissed by simply turning off the computer and walking away?
Would you spend this much time and energy discussing the semantics of Peter Rabbit and his possible relation to the Easter Bunny?
Wed Aug 16, 11:12:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
Not the Easter Bunny. But a LOT more people talk about Harry Potter, who is for sure a fictional character.
Wed Aug 16, 04:50:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
For one 'wasting time' is also in the mind.
Wed Aug 16, 07:46:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Also, if there were massive churches built to honor Peter Rabbit, and most of our government representatives believed in the Easter Bunny, then yes, those would also be worth debating.
Wed Aug 16, 07:52:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Fiction defined as: 'An imaginative creation or a pretense that does not represent actuality but has been invented' - by nature also applies to government, the financial systems etc.
Taking something for granted and/or accepted as true without proof is a common action, also know as making assumptions. An example is the FED and the fiat currrency the US dollar, US dollar values. By using legal semantics (legalese) there is the Court Ruling that the Federal Reserve is Privately Owned (Lewis v. United States, 680 F.2d 1239 (1982)
Using semantics to create fiction to create something otherwise creating realities is a human quality.
Wed Aug 16, 08:32:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Mind you creating/building churches is a possibility, not a necessity. According to many versions of the Bible, Jesus held service on the mount. Jesus also disagreed with the financial institutions such as the moneychangers in the temple.
Jesus for one is named the messiah, Messiah in the meaning ‘liberator’. Jesus foremost is the liberator (messiah) of Jesus. After al, no one can lead who has not been there himself/herself. One needs the experience.
Being liberated from the 'moneychangers' (financial institutions) is one step in becoming free. Being free, the intention of being a Messiah?
Wed Aug 16, 09:01:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Intresting. This doesn't mean Satan is a good guy, it just underlines the fact that God is far from nice. That's the whole point. I, as a nihilist, agree. No need to get intense over the Bible. We should do some research on how many people God killed in other non jewish-christian books.
Bottom line: God is not nice af far as westerns are concearned.
Wed Aug 16, 09:05:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
There is no need to get intense over the Bible; this doesn’t necessarily mean that discussing or communicating otherwise about the Bible is out of the question.
Having a bearded male God and a Satan is a Middle Eastern concept (Judeo-Christian and Islamic religions).
Semantically it is relative to dualistic thinking. Examples of dualistic words are: man/woman, high/low, hot/cold. Producer/consumer.
It requires little imagination to be aware that for instance a human can be both a producer and consumer simultaneously. It also possible to define a producer as he/she/it who produces that what is to be consumed and consumption itself..
In doing so, economics transforms. After al there is a multitude of forms of economics. By altering definitions and or introducing ‘new’ words and thus ‘new’ concepts the picture creation of economics also alters. Of course this is also possible in bookkeeping for instance and influencing the financial reporting and status of all involved.
This dualistic (black/white) thinking is not a prominent in Eastern thinking. Eastern languages for one lack the thinking patterns introduced by for instance: Socrates, Plato etc.
An example:
Middle Eastern -Dualistic: An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth
Eastern –: An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind.
Wed Aug 16, 09:37:00 PM 2006
٣١گ١™ said...
Satan let people to live and do bad things..
so when they die, they can shovel coal in hell for eternity.. :D
Thu Aug 17, 02:51:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
It is mind over matter but also mind into matter.
So one can change the significance of life with one word, its spelling, its meaning, its message unheard.
Or as a multitude of religions state one-way or other: "There is nothing (space = potentiality), there is the word (language) and with words God, the Great Spirit, Goddess is creating the heavens and the earths".
What one thinks about, one brings about.
Thu Aug 17, 02:56:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
pearls before swine.
Thu Aug 17, 11:25:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
Need I remind you that, according to the bible, God gave us freewill, that means neither He nor Satan can make us do anything. It is all a matter of choice.
A little whisper here and there, that's all fine and good. But the fact is, everything you do is because you CHOOSE to do it.
On another note, I absolutely love the fact that the new Pope use to be a member of Hitler Youth. (And GWAR obviously loves it too!)
Thu Aug 17, 07:33:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
We have will as is. In order to have free will we would have to know everything, we don't.
Further, choices are related to the language and are often opinion based. Choices a person can make in one language for reason it has a word and concept in order to make the choice, one cannot make if one uses another language which lacks the word an the concept.
In other words: If one has to/want to participate in a game and the rules, the game, the expression used are a complete mystery, one cannot play the game.
In a nutshell: It is all relative, in this case, for one to semantics.
In order to have the concept of God/Satan one has to be a dualistic thinker. This is a form of conditioning one aquires from the surroundings one grows-up in.
For those interested:
Peter Gordon: "Numerical cognition without words: evidence from Amazonia". In: Science Express, 10.1126/science.1094492 (2004)
Thu Aug 17, 09:03:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
"Caleb Horton said...
Keep in mind the Bible was written a long time ago long after the events had already occured. Back then, people more than likely believed natural disasters were sent from God above. If that is truly the case.. do you feel the Tsunami was sent from God or just a natural disaster?
The bible was written by textbook authors. They heard the stories from a friend who heard them from a friend. How many times to you think the story was changed before it hit paper."
Are you saying the Bible is wrong and innaccurate? Anyway, you lose!
Thu Aug 17, 09:39:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
"....They heard the stories from a friend who heard them from a friend...."
The phenomenon for one known as ‘Chinese whispers’.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telephone_(game)
Thu Aug 17, 09:47:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Mind you, not only applies to the Bible, but also to for instance history books. History is, for one an accumulation of opinions. Opinions are alterable. And having a language that uses the concepts of 'past, present, future' is a must.
Thu Aug 17, 09:49:00 PM 2006
Mike said...
The bible was written by textbook authors. They heard the stories from a friend who heard them from a friend. How many times to you think the story was changed before it hit paper.
Actually, many of the Bible writers were firsthand witnesses of what they wrote about.
2 Million to 10......Hmmm.... sounds to me like God wins. I'm going to serve the one who has that ability, not the one who can only kill 10 and then only with the permission of the one who killed the 2 Million to begin with.....God wins, hands down. :-)
The Mind of Mike
Fri Aug 18, 08:34:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
Anyone who allies himself with a mass murderer who's killed two million people over resisting that person isn't any kind of "good person", and also is no one I'd like to meet.
Since they're both fictional characters anyway, it's a moot point, but Satan strikes me as the nicer of the two.
All God's actions are indicative of a tyrant - Disallowing eating from the tree of knowledge, disallowing harmless deviant action (Like not believing in someone who sends ambiguous signals in the first place), allowing and bringing into creation child molesters, murderers, rapists, etc.. Ah, well, Mikey. Enjoy hanging with Hitler's distant ancestor while I chill with the Flying Spaghetti Monster of peace.
Fri Aug 18, 03:32:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
yeah but, satan gets people to sin and kill each other so that people are made responsible and end up worse than they would be if they had simply just died
Sat Aug 19, 09:45:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
"All God's actions are indicative of a tyrant - Disallowing eating from the tree of knowledge, disallowing harmless deviant action (Like not believing in someone who sends ambiguous signals in the first place), allowing and bringing into creation child molesters, murderers, rapists, etc.. "
Human beings were completely innocent and without any guilt when God created them. (We won't argue about that point right now.) God didn't disallow eating from the tree of knowledge (condemning us to ignorance), but from the TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL. Adam and Eve, the first parents, who taught their children, who then taught their own children, down to us today, chose to know EVIL. They chose to know the difference between good and evil, and, therefore, are responsible for the evil that they chose to do. As are we responsible for the evil we have chosen.
Who has NEVER chosen to do wrong?? Even as young children, we begin to recognize when we are doing something we shouldn't. Because we choose to do what we know is wrong, we are guilty and deserve death. The other tree in the Garden, the TREE OF LIFE, was not forbidden until human beings disobeyed. All death, destruction, and evil is a direct result of our insisting upon knowing THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN GOOD AND EVIL.
We don't have a case against God.
Sun Aug 20, 04:20:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Satan killed everyone who doesn't believe in God. They go straight to hell.
Sun Aug 20, 05:03:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Ever considered "lives given/created"?
Try work some maths on that, I think you'll find Satan on a big fat 0.
I say let's take it a step further and work out the "good vs evil" percent of both, except you're going to have a little time dividing Satan's "lives taken" by that 0...
So regardless what "percent" we get for God, he's up against a "Cannot divide by zero", which roughly translated means you don't even have anything to compare Him to :)
Mon Aug 21, 06:56:00 AM 2006
Welly said...
Hi,
Interesting article :)
Let me share my opinion, though it won't be popular.
First, we have to realized that we are not in equal position with God, He is our creator. Life as we know it, is given by Him.
Second, the people you mentioned, died because of sin. (by no means I am saying that as a Christian I am better. I was a sinner and still am. I'm not better that non-Christian, and sometimes even worse.) Unfortunately, the word "sin" has lost much of it's meaning in today's culture, while God takes sin seriously (click here to see my thoughts on sin).
One thing that cross my mind when I read your posting, it's awfully brave of God to put things that can be used against Him, that incriminate Him in the Bible.
Cheers.
Welly
Mon Aug 21, 07:20:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
Sin should be branded on the forehead, murderer.
Wed Aug 23, 04:54:00 AM 2006
BKR said...
heretic
Wed Aug 23, 10:26:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
That is because ALL organized religions were at one point fabricated to control people with laws and rules -- including laying out punishments for this world and the one "beyond".
It was used as a deterrent for would-be criminals.
Wed Aug 23, 04:29:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Ah, so many people being non-spiritual. Please, don't let science and religion be at war. The rules are written, if you would just look what's in front of your eyes you'll know. The bible isn't fictional, most of the things in the book have similarity to events that already happen. "History repeats itself..." According to my research, it is no coincidence that there are demons, angels, ghosts in every religion, it is a fact that they do exist and it's very possible to feel their presence. Example, Science will base the facts as a brain disfunction and religion will based it on a demon. Science still can't describe why sometimes we itch in certain spots, think about that. Still think ghosts are not real? Talk to people who have seen them or are they all messed up in the head? Ghosts are nothing more than wondering spirits who don't realize that they are dead and still haven't gone for that light at the end of the tunnel. I have no clue why the bible was written, but I realized that it's the only thing people can look and point at it. You know you can't point to god, let along see god's face. And if you know science you should understand that there is a balance in the universe; there is a such thing as a force to be everything and none, because it is the opposite of existing and void.
Wed Aug 23, 06:50:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Ghosts are hallucinations done by the demons subliminally. For science folks; it's the part of your brain that you day dream: being taken over and placed in your subconscious part of the brain. As some people would say, "half awake". The demons use this method to bring you fear or alternate your reality to a fantasy of misbelief. Also, those folks who said God has "killed" more people than Satan, then Bin Laden never killed anyone; he just messed up the terrorists' minds and made them believe they are going to marry 1000 virgin women by sacrificing themselves for their god.(Still believe Satan and his demons don't kill? Look around you, explain why people kill out of anger and some of them lived normal lives, peaceful lives, yet they still decide to steal or kill or murderer; like an instinct inside of us to do what is bad.)
Those who said God kills, you're highly mistaken; If I created a robot and all he does is murder people, do everything in the wrong way, not listening to my instructions; as a human being, I would destroy MY creation and make a new robot who obeys. Now God's level of intelligence surpasses my infinite times over but I was smart enough to 'pick' sense from it. God destroys the "itch" or the people who kill for pleasure, who steal for pleasure, who murders for pleasure, who kills their own family, friends for money, who doesn't listen to him and do bad over and over.
What is right? What is right and wrong anyway? Look, when you go to get something to eat, it is good harmony in God's eyes, when you play with children and help them to grow, you do what is good, but when you can tell me raping women is fun or raping children is good. Then you're just as sick as the demons.
So, what is God removing anyway? Besides, if God "ALLOW" Satan to take a life of his righteous people, He can bring them back at a proper time, a place of peace where they won't be killed a second time by evil people or demons. This is GOD's creation and Satan and his demons can enjoy the sickness on this planet while it lasts. He can play Bin Laden for all I care. So if you're saying God kills then Satan is an excellent cold blooded murderer; indeed such a perfect murderer of a strategist, has done so without even having to lay a hand on you, shows you how intelligent he really is to use things not even scientists can understand "How?"
Thu Aug 24, 07:39:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
I cannot say how amusing it is when people flaunt science as somehow much more stable than any other form of knowledge. How many times has science proven itself wrong? How many times have fallacies that were once held up as indubitable facts been proven wrong? Don't forget that for 2,000 years the Sun orbited the Earth. The problem does not lie in the truth of science versus the fallacy of religion, rather the problem lies in the inability of man to fully understand the universe he is in. Scientists will tell you that the sheer amount of things we don't know is absolutely staggering, enough to make you sick really. What is it to say that perhaps God is just one thing that science hasn't proven yet, one of those scientific facts that just hasn't been discovered. Remember that the planet surrounding Alpha Centauri existed before we could believe it. The art of astronomy is the perfect allegory for knowing the existence of God. Astronomers see the effects of a planet's gravitational pull in a nearly imperceptible wobble in the nearest star. They cannot see the source of the change itself but they know it is there by the effect it has. Perhaps we should start looking for the source of the wobble. I know that many will just reject this out of hand because I call into question the validity of sound scientific fact. I know that many will find this just another grasping attempt to somehow validate my beliefs. Yet there is nothing in my critique of science that is not true, the scientific facts are as you say, indisputable and dare I say, scientifically, logically, sound.
Thu Aug 24, 12:54:00 PM 2006
David said...
I suppose if you say God killed people through such things as plague, famine, and weather, that is, these natural elements are created by and under God's control...then God kills everyone! All the billions of people that ever walked the earth! Pretty bad...but then you could also say that he gave everyone life in the first place so I guess he's breaking even (minus one if you count his son that died but never really died)
Thu Aug 24, 01:24:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Since God created the entire universe and everything in it he has the right to kill anything or anyone he wants to.
Thu Aug 24, 01:49:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Jeez, God only kills people that really deserve it! Like those kids who make fun of the prophet Elijah's baldness, so a she-bear came and ate them. I mean, they were ASKING for it.
Thu Aug 24, 02:07:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
You see "God" kills because because of xyz, and satan because of abc. I know this because somehow like everyone else posting I know exactly how and why metaphysical untestable unobserved things like "god and satan" work. Yes you see I can tell you the exact method in which satan or god kills, and it goes like this HEY LOOK OVER THERE
/me runs away
Thu Aug 24, 02:47:00 PM 2006
sensei said...
Who's better: Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny?
Thu Aug 24, 02:52:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
I never could commit the intellectual suicide required to participate in religion. I’m more of a philosophy guy. Besides, if god was a real being, he’d sure be a right bastard.
Thu Aug 24, 02:54:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Bill Cosby said it best:
"I brought you in this world, (and) I'll take you out."
Thu Aug 24, 03:00:00 PM 2006
NinjaDude said...
great insight on the religious poop.
Thu Aug 24, 03:04:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Show me a copy of the Bible that God himself wrote! He has the ability to create the universe, and everything in it, but he cannot write a book? Jesus himself, while here in person, (if he was really god's only son) did not write anything either. Not that it would make much difference. I want a copy of the bible that god or Jesus wrote. Not a fictional novel created by man or one of Jesus' disciples. Dude supposedly walked on water, but he could not transcribe his own teachings? Yeah, I am really going to listen to some one preach that is afraid to put his own words on paper!
Thu Aug 24, 03:06:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
But Satan did it with Style...it's not the number, it's how good you are at it!
Thu Aug 24, 03:08:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Above it is mentioned that God created all the people he killed, as a means of mitigating his guilt.
Ah yes, because it is OK if you kill your children, just not if you kill someone elses...
One might also point out that the Bible credits God with creating only two (or if your blasphemous, three) individuals. The people in the city of Sorrow that Cain goes to after offing his brother are just 'there' without a specified genesis.
Thu Aug 24, 03:10:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
I think boobs are awesome....
who cares about anything else..
Thu Aug 24, 03:11:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
In the days where the pioneers travelled west on caravans, there was 2 simple rules of conversation. Do not discuss politics or religion... lest someone eventually be shot.
Each one of us has his or her own beliefs, and should respect those of others, even if they disagree.
I, as a Christian, extend my tolerance of anyone elses beliefs in the hopes that you quit bashing my God, and quit bashing my beliefs. These are sacred to me. If you people have a shred of descency, you'll quit being so quick to bash Christianity and all Christians.
Thu Aug 24, 03:14:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
"Anonymous said...
Above it is mentioned that God created all the people he killed, as a means of mitigating his guilt.
Ah yes, because it is OK if you kill your children, just not if you kill someone elses...
One might also point out that the Bible credits God with creating only two (or if your blasphemous, three) individuals. The people in the city of Sorrow that Cain goes to after offing his brother are just 'there' without a specified genesis. "
The bible also says that God knit us together in our mother's womb. So, he made all of us.
Thu Aug 24, 03:16:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Doesn't say anything about the quality of those who died though. They were people consumed by sin and evil. So the deaths by God according to this poll were deaths against evil.. Sounds to me.. Like Good vs. Evil.. Good is winning by a long shot. No contest.
Thu Aug 24, 03:16:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
"I cannot say how amusing it is when people flaunt science as somehow much more stable than any other form of knowledge. How many times has science proven itself wrong?"
Exactly. PROVEN itself wrong. How many times has religion believed itself wrong? I think the relevant factor here is doubt, not belief. Although I think that one can be religious AND hold to basic scientific theory I think that the first thing you must do is learn to doubt yourself. If man is falible, why isn't your belief falible?
"How many times have fallacies that were once held up as indubitable facts been proven wrong? Don't forget that for 2,000 years the Sun orbited the Earth."
No, for 2,000 years people BELIEVED that the sun orbited the Earth.
"The problem does not lie in the truth of science versus the fallacy of religion, rather the problem lies in the inability of man to fully understand the universe he is in. Scientists will tell you that the sheer amount of things we don't know is absolutely staggering, enough to make you sick really. What is it to say that perhaps God is just one thing that science hasn't proven yet, one of those scientific facts that just hasn't been discovered."
As are... Bigfoot, little green men from Mars, and ghosts. One cannot prove a negative statement at all. Perhaps my pen drops to the ground because fairies drag it there. Perhaps it is because of gravity. Which makes more sense? This is all that science asks. I would argue that most scientists are not so much saying 'God Does Not Exist' as rejecting God as the knee jerk answer for everything. God may or may not exist, but he certainly is not the direct cause of my flu.
"Remember that the planet surrounding Alpha Centauri existed before we could believe it. The art of astronomy is the perfect allegory for knowing the existence of God. Astronomers see the effects of a planet's gravitational pull in a nearly imperceptible wobble in the nearest star. They cannot see the source of the change itself but they know it is there by the effect it has. Perhaps we should start looking for the source of the wobble. I know that many will just reject this out of hand because I call into question the validity of sound scientific fact. I know that many will find this just another grasping attempt to somehow validate my beliefs. Yet there is nothing in my critique of science that is not true, the scientific facts are as you say, indisputable and dare I say, scientifically, logically, sound."
See Above.
I know that this is getting off topic, sorry folks.
Thu Aug 24, 03:22:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
the whole problem here is this concept of the sanctity of life. Perhaps god told moses thou shalt not kill, because its my damn job, and I'm the only one who knows when it should happen. Death and evil aren't necessarily connected, you know. It seems to me that evil in a biblical sense is connected to disobedience of perceived divine will, rather then a broad labeling of actions as good or evil.
Thu Aug 24, 03:26:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Why would I want to go to heaven anyways? All my friends are going to hell. Go Satan!
Thu Aug 24, 03:30:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Hmmm, a Christian gets mad because people are bashing his belief, yet I'll bet he was silent when the dutch newspapers were bashing Islam. I'll bet he doesn't feel the slightest bit of remorse for the crusades.
Of course, if satan cant kill without gods permission, wthen why worry about him?
Thu Aug 24, 03:32:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
1. You assume that killing someone is evil. What about someone dying a horrible death, is it evil to stop their suffering?
2. God has the ability to allow everyone to live forever, therefore every death could be "blamed" on God.
3. Because you can't see the timeline God can, you have no idea of the good that could have been caused by the untimely death of a number of people.
4. You don't account for God's wrath and the understanding our souls had on the way down here. We're here by the grace of God, if you don't do the good things you should be doing, he'll expire your contract. That's not His fault, that's yours.
5. You need a reality check in the differences between good and evil.
Thu Aug 24, 03:33:00 PM 2006
network_failure said...
By imposing a sentance of death on each and every unborn child of Adam and Eve, although those children had comitted no sin of their own, God is culpable not only for every death of every person in the world. By forcing a predisposition of inherant sinfulness upon humanity, he took away our free will. The argument that "He gave us life" holds no water, in fact it shows the cruelty of God in an even clearer light. Creating life and then forcing it to endure millennia of pain, suffering and death is not the mark of a God of love. It is the mark of a God who has left the scene of His crime.
Thu Aug 24, 03:50:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
What does Jesus have to say about some of you people and Christians...
http://ad.grimdesign.net/images/jesus2.jpg
http://ad.grimdesign.net/modules.php?name=Offensive
Thu Aug 24, 03:57:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
The thing that everybody is forgeting is that there was no death or sin until Satan tempted Eve into eating the apple from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Whereby Adam and Eve were expelled from the garden of Eden and only then did death come into play. Hence the Devil is responsible for Death because it was not even a factor until he came along. And because of that temptation Satan is responsible for all death. God grants life, Satan grants death. In the book of Revelation it says at the end of times that Death will be cast into the lake of eternal fire along with Satan and all of his followers. Satan is responsible for the original cause of death and will be punished for all eternity along with death (Angel of Death). Aside from that it is man killing man or disease and the like which are all a result of Sin. God doesn't and hasn't killed anyone.
Thu Aug 24, 03:58:00 PM 2006
iozzi said...
Oddly enough satanists are actually christians since since you must believe in the bible to believe in satan. The jews don't believe in satan.
Thu Aug 24, 04:01:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Satan didn't force anyone to eat the damn apple. That was Eve's choice. And God created the damn tree. They might have eaten from the tree eventually even if Satan wasn't around. Plus God created Satan.
The root of all death is God. He created all things, including death.
Thu Aug 24, 04:01:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
God's a dork, and he still owes me for lunch last week. Stuck me with the check after ordering Lobster thermadore. Now Satan, on the other hand, always buys the first and last round. Stan also never impregnated anyone and then abandonded them to be denied, whipped, and nailed to a tree. IMHO, God's just another Stev-o, and Satan is tons more respectable.
Besides, how bad can he be? Hell's full of chicks!
Thu Aug 24, 04:10:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
There's one flaw in your calculations. If Satan had not caused Eve to sin & then Adam. They & their offspring would have lived forever. Therefore Satan has caused the death of every human who has ever lived.
Thu Aug 24, 04:17:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Okay, once again to all you idiots who say Satan is to blame for Eve to sin. Read the damn Bible, God would have let it slipped if Adam didn't sin.
Also, God created Satan. Since God knows everything, he knew what Satan would do. He also knew what Eve would do. So he could have stopped it from ever happening.
Let's get theoretical too. What if Satan wasn't around. Then Eve decided "hey, I want to try the forbidden fruit..." Then it would be Eve's fault. But in reality it would also be partly God's responsibility. Hell, he knew they would try it.
It's like leaving a Gold watch in the middle of the Ghetto and expecting no one to take it.
God made Satan, Eve, and Adam. He raised them all. So it is his fault they turned out like they did no? Bad parenting I tell you.
Oh, you disagree with that. Okay, let us try this. God knows everything (Bible says so.. lol). So if he knows everything, he knew what they would do and didn't do anything. Which makes him a partner in crime, making him partly responsible. If someone knew someone was going to kill someone else and didn't do anything, wouldn't he be partly to blame. This goes with the saying "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for a few good men to do nothing."
God let Evil triumph, so it is HIS fault there is death. No matter which Angle you choose, the blame falls on God.
Thu Aug 24, 04:27:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Did god make a mistake when he created satan then. making something evil cant be good..... hmmmm!
Thu Aug 24, 05:18:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
i think the horrific spelling in these comments is a greater evil than santa.
Thu Aug 24, 05:55:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
God created all with free will yes, even Satan. Satan chose to rebel against God. Eve & Adam had a choice. Serve God who gave you everything or disobey Him & face death. They knew the rules. Eve even told Satan the result,when he was placing doubt in her mind. Satan knew exactly what he was doing. Adam & Eve were just plain stupid! The only contact with intelligent life up to this point was with God. They knew he caused their existance, yet they chose to disobey, which does make them just as responsible for death as Satan. God made the law, if He is righteous he could not break his own law. By laying a simple restriction on them he could see if they would choose to be obedient.
What if God did away with Satan before Satan caused this to happen? What would that prove to the other angels? He has to allow Satan to carry on through his course so that all creation, both mankind & angels know that only God's way of rule is best.
As for God knowing everything, yes he has that ability IF he chooses to use it. Would we really have free will & control of our lives if he chooses the outcome before we make decisions? The bible says we have free will. If he chose to foresee the outcome of Adam & Eve after he had created them, again all the angels were watching. If he chose to know they would sin, what would he tell the angels? I had to do away with the humans because they were GOING to sin? Ridiculous.
Overall to blame God, he created everything...so if you look at it that subjectively...I guess one could say that it is his fault. But I choose to look at his righteous qualities & hope that one day he will do away with Satan as promised & only those who wish to worship him as Adam & Eve had the opportunity to do will be in existence as he had originally purposed.
Thu Aug 24, 06:07:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
"I brought you into this world and I can take you out!" I guess my Father ment what he said :}
Thu Aug 24, 06:16:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
I love reading these dicussions ( I use the term loosely). The ignorence involved in the pro-religous aruments never ceases to amaze. The majority of the anti-regilous arguments are logical and use proof and fact while the pro-relogion camp uses threats, half truths and material from one book in an attempt to prove that book. Science and free thought brought us flight, medicine, exploration, and freedom. Religon brings fear, mistrust, hatred and the stagnation of society. I don't need to argue, I simply need to discover ever more, untill you no longer have a margin to stand in.
Thu Aug 24, 06:17:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Bad news... we all get to die someday as things are. Are you even more resentful to God for allowing this to happen?
Thu Aug 24, 06:25:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
God sent his only son to die... this just proves that hes a sick mother fucker!
its not just who god killed anymore cuz that arguement wont win any battles.
why dont we count all the people that have been killed IN GODS NAME. the religious extreamist who believe gay people are the crusty ass flakes of society are the ones god should be laying the smack down on. this is not thinning the herd. this is giving the retarded kid a sharp fork and making him laugh so he stabs his eye over and over again for amusement!
screw religion, I'll make my piece with whatever deity there is if there is when I die.
great submission btw =)
Thu Aug 24, 06:39:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
No amount of knowledge will ever eliminate the basic human need to fear. This is why religion exists; this is why Man created God. Man's capacity to question is the root of both science and religion, and who is to say what is right and wrong? Religion portends to do so without the benefit of logic, horribly misusing the word "faith" in the process. But the fallibility of science is readily provable (as all things scientific should be), for did we not just decide that Pluto is no longer a planet? How long did you YOURSELF believe that to be true? And *POOF* gone. Not a planet at all.
I just wish you people would take a step back once and a while and look at this for what it is. This is how people deal with life. The religious zealots, the atheist scientists, the long snappers, the coxswains, the guy who painted my fence, lawyers, girl scouts, the whole lot of them. No one really knows anything, but if everyone can just relax and be cool, no one has to get hurt.
People. Please.
Thu Aug 24, 06:45:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
God said: "thou shall not kill"
Why would it be wrong for HIM to do it, he's just telling us not to kill.
Thu Aug 24, 07:16:00 PM 2006
freedomofthought said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Thu Aug 24, 07:36:00 PM 2006
freedomofthought said...
And yet "holy" leaders use the bible to justify killing all of the time. How many "holy wars" have there been throughout history? The crusades, the inquisition, world war II, how many others were there? People use the bible to justify killing one another on a regular basis. I have had people tell me that without the bible and religious radicles people would find some other reason to kill each other. They may be right, but to date, religion and faith based causes have claimed more lives than any other cause of death. That includes natural disasters.
Thu Aug 24, 07:38:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Nothing brings out the nasty side of people like religion.
Thu Aug 24, 07:42:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Anonymous said...
According to the Bible, specifically I Corinthians 15, death itself came into the world because of sin (the sin of Adam in the Garden of Eden). The great message of the Bible, however, is that God sent his only son, Jesus, to die on a cross and in doing so pay the debt of the world's sins (Philippians 2:7-9, and everyone's favorite, John 3:16).
3:54 PM
If you read genesis, nowhere does it mention that the serpent is the devil at all. Therefore, Satan is not responsible for Adam and Eve's sin, they and the serpent (which is just considered to be the most intelligent of the animals in eden) are.
Thu Aug 24, 07:47:00 PM 2006
Humorous said...
ROFL!!
Lol, it's true about everything how ALOT of people KILLED and DIED in the name of GOD. Look at Hitler. He killed the Jews cause they worshipped GOD. The Crusades for the HOLY LAND were so idiotic at how the Catholic churches kept saying that they needed to take the HOLY LAND back from the Muslims who HAD IT IN THE FIRST PLACE!
I wish this world would be without a God or a Higher Being, but that wouldn't make the world all the more interesting wouldn't it?
Lol, sadly, I think that killing and dying in the name of GOD is a bunch of bull. What if I went around, killing people, such as gays, lesbians, and any other religion, and saying that it's in the name of GOD?! Wouldn't that make the ENTIRE WORLD question my actions? Who WOULD back me up then? Would the churches support my actions? ROFL, I'd probably only be backed by those extremists and so forth, and condemned by the entire world. And that's fucking social SUICIDE!
GOD is just a sinner like EVERY ONE OF US. He ain't perfect, heck, heaven probably isn't even perfect either. In a perfect world, there are LIES. If GOD doesn't want us to kill, then why did people kill and die in HIS name? Why use a retarded excuse?
To me, I think Satan is a SANE being. He atleast had the ability to REBEL against GOD since GOD was probably a TYRANT.
Thu Aug 24, 07:49:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
You people talk about god and satan as if they were real, and then you talk about how wrong everyone else is about them, then everyone giggles. Is that how this game works? Does anyone really give shit about what is being said here? I mean, if you're just going to masturbate, there is some wicked awesome porn a few clicks away. Thus, I'll be on my way.
Thu Aug 24, 08:14:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
come on guys?!!!!! think outside of this box.... the bible was put together by some control freaks after the break down of the roman empire to control the masses.... and as for the old testment its part of the jewish levites control efforts--- god doesnt think like us more than likely (and put in the most simple terms)"god" is just a mass of energy. we are part of that energy and we have more power than we realize, just as we dont use all our brain, we also dont utilize all or abilities.
Thu Aug 24, 08:16:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Is God or Satan responsible for the invention of porn? I mean, certainly it is lascivious and lustful in nature, which would lead one to believe that it falls in the realms of Satan, that sly old coot. But wait! It cannot be denied that really good porn, and I mean REALLY good porn, is so great that it can only come from God himself. Maybe porn was the project they were working on when they had the big spat that made God create Hell and put Satan in it. Either way, porn sure is awesome.
Thu Aug 24, 08:20:00 PM 2006
SkyFlyer said...
You forgot to put in the Millions killed by Hitler, the hundreds of millions killed by feminists via abortion, and the millions killed by genocide in Ching and Communist Russia.
Thu Aug 24, 08:23:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Ah, yes. The porn link. That brings this entire discussion back around to the original issue of the number of people killed by God and Satan. Once you take porn into account, it seems that God has, indeed, killed more people than Satan, but Satan has been doing almost all the stabbin'. Cheers to you, porn lover. You do the work of two gods!
Thu Aug 24, 08:25:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
You are a vile and disgusting person who would make jokes about God and pornography. Have you no shame?
Thu Aug 24, 08:27:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
LOL!
Thu Aug 24, 08:39:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
The Old Testament God actually was Satan. The New Testament God was the real God. Don't you people know your Gnosticism? Or see the Matrix Trilogy?
Thu Aug 24, 09:09:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
The Bible equals the modern day media, ie CNN. As such, is it really the word of God, or just some good old boys wanting to profit off the masses. Mayhap, Satan didn't rally people up for the Crusades (modern or medival) but I bet you he had to expand hell.
Thu Aug 24, 09:19:00 PM 2006
Humorous said...
LOL, do you guys watch this blog or something? You guys are like... WOLVES waiting for a kill. Lol.
Thu Aug 24, 09:38:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
DogZoo sucks Doggy poo
"G.N.A.A"
Thu Aug 24, 10:10:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
People are tools. Free will gives us the opportunity to work for one thing or another. That's not a bad thing. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.
We all take the dirt nap.
Language is nothing but a cell, limiting the range of experience. A billboard if you will. Crude and efficient.
History is written by the winners. There for those who care to read it.
The winners died too.
Its only courtious to live and let live. To not obstruct anyones path. Everyone is potentially anyone. I can't imagine you'd want me to obstruct you forever. So don't kill me. Those who did not obstruct died.
Those who did obstruct died too.
Everything dies. Good or bad. Caused by good or bad.
Personal experience is all we ALL have to offer to this world.
Those books you read, They will live well beyond us on their own merit. Whether its CNN or the bible, its hearsay. And its all edited. what you decide to do in this world gives imediate results. Take your results to those you trust, and who trust you.
I think it's cute though, that everyone's so consumed with god and satan's role in death. Like god and/or satan are like over-ambitious stage mothers for death.
Everybodys got a job to do. Just let death do its job, and it'll let everybody (and god and satan) do theirs.
Don't be so scared of death. For the god fearin', it only brings them one step closer to their big goal. For the non-fearin'... finally, some peace and quiet!
nature is a funny thing.
Fri Aug 25, 01:21:00 AM 2006
Manichean said...
Too bad everything written here about super-beings is moot.
Mmmm, porn.
Fri Aug 25, 01:32:00 AM 2006
Fobos said...
Have you ever thought something so hard that you would never accept another opinion on that issue... but only in few seconds there is your point of view demolished before your eyes making space for another soooo completely different..... That’s why I won’t ever say that I don’t believe in god..... But neither I do.
Fri Aug 25, 04:56:00 AM 2006
franklin_fartpickle said...
Oh, yeah. Well neither God nor Satan killed my cat... The vet did.
Fri Aug 25, 04:58:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
Amazing how people who believe in superstitions can rationalize anything.
What would you call a serial killer who tortures victums because "suffering makes them stronger and better in my eyes", a psychopath.
Fri Aug 25, 06:19:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
Mundane_Noodle said...
As far as killing in the name of God goes, my personal belief (this exempts me from any criticism because I am not binding this on anyone else :o0 ) is that a post-messianic Christian is to win others to his cause through peaceful means. For example, if someone breaks into my house to harm my family, as a Christian, my priority should be to try to win that individual over to my cause peacefully. (I can't honestly say that would be my reaction) While I am well within my civil rights to kill them the moment they step through my door, Christ's example dictates that I should love this person enough to prefer his safety over my own or my family's.
Through Bible history, God has chosen his people to wipe out entire races in his name, but Christ came to fulfill the promise of peace. At the same time, he acknowledged that he came not to bring peace, but a sword. This indicates that he knew Christianity would bring strife, even within the family.
On the subject of fact verses fiction, several have stated that science disproves the Bible, yet I have not seen a single fact quoted that does so. The Bible has proven science, however, in that Job understood that the Earth was suspended on nothing and that it was "round" (okay we know its a spherical elipsis). These fact were not scientifically discovered in Job's time. David understood ocean currents. This also was not yet scientifically known.
If you want facts, archeology is the Bible's best friend. Even the hardest atheist should be able to see the historical accuracy of the Old Testament if nothing else. Even if you don't believe in God, the historical accuracy is impressive.
There can be no doubt that religion is a control mechanism, and many organizations use it as a tool for profit. I agree that God's intention has been perverted my miscreants looking for a quick dollar or for control over weaker individuals. I ask that you not blame God or Christians for this, but to lay the blame at the feet of those who have perverted what I believe is the purpose for man. The ideas promoted by Christianity are profitable, if followed, but few there are who find the narrow path.
Please show me what tenant of Christianity is negative. What concept or law of Christianity is harmful? Tell me where the negativity is in following the beliefs of Christianity. If you believe it to be a religion of ignorance, show me what negative consequences come from following it.
Does the distaste of Christianity come from the fact that we cannot do whatever we want? Does peace come without restraint and self-control?
One person stated that a Christian would not change their mind even if you laid out the non-existance of God on paper. This person criticized others for not using facts, while using none of their own.I welcome an explanation with facts which I have yet to see from those touting said facts.
I love you as a person, even if I don't agree with you, but that doesn't mean I won't defend my position.
Fri Aug 25, 07:08:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
I just threw up in my mouth a little bit. An explanation of God touting the facts? Good luck with that.
Fri Aug 25, 07:14:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
Mundane_Noodle said...
Maybe I should clarify. I would like those who say that Christians don't use facts to show some of their own to refute Christianity or the authenticity of the Bible.
I have referenced proofs of science in the Bible. Show me where the Bible is wrong with something other than your personal opinion. I will listen.
Fri Aug 25, 07:36:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
Mundane_Noodle said...
Sorry guys. I just realized I'm bringing the room down. I just wanted to say that not all Christians are brainwashed non-thinking zombies. Some of us have challenged our own beliefs and found them justified, and we would like to be given the credit for doing so.
Fri Aug 25, 07:56:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
Good and Evil aside... What would life be without death. It's all crap anyway.
Fri Aug 25, 08:26:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
"That is because ALL organized religions were at one point fabricated to control people with laws and rules -- including laying out punishments for this world and the one "beyond".
It was used as a deterrent for would-be criminals."
Organized religion is and always will be a way for the people in power to control those who are not. Especially during the time the Bible was written, natural disasters would have been explained by the divine. People would have made claims such as "God gave me these ten commandments, we all must follow them." They didn't have science to explain events such as earthquakes or volcanic eruptions. People will believe anything if they don't have an explanation for it. The people in positions of power during biblical times knew this. They used this knowledge. The fact that we have free will means that people could easily make up a god in order to control the weak-minded.
I don't have any solid proof that a god or gods does not exist, but I have enough circumstantial proof to back it up in my own mind. And anyhow, ANY god that uses fear to control (something only men would do, in my opinion) is not a god I want to worship, even if he does exist. The $*@&$@ gave us free will? We can do whatever we want as long as He says we can.
Pshaw.
Fri Aug 25, 09:17:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
Can anyone prove God exists? Can anyone prove God doesn't exist?
If christians believe in a God they can't prove exists and are brain washed zombies that reject science for doing so..... Then atheists are guilty of the same ignorance for not believeing in a God that they can't prove does not exist.
Whether you believe in God or not your beleifs require faith. Faith is believing in what you can't prove.
Fri Aug 25, 09:42:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
For me, mundane noodle, it's not so much that I can disprove the existence of a god or gods, but that I cannot prove it. I'm not an atheist, per se, but I am an agnostic with atheistic leanings.
I remember reading a lot of Ayn Rand in high school, and I was a devout follower of her teachings. For those not familiar with Objectivism, her philosophy, she teaches that reality is an objective entity, a "thing" that exists independent of our perceptions and interpretations. (Someone had the tag "noumenon" a while back--this should be right up your alley. :) ) So there either is or isn't a god. There either is or isn't an apple on the table. There either is or isn't a lit cigarette in my mouth, whether or not anyone perceives it, whether or not it is tangible.
She teaches that the only way to correctly interpret reality, an object, was with reason. Logical, rational thought processes and a critical eye are the keys to understanding reality, which is the key to making decisions in the world and actively living life correctly (which she does not think is subjective, either).
But the one thing she never accomplished in her philosophy was to prove that reality exists. The flaw in Rand's logic, in Objectivism, is that one cannot use reason to base one's entire philosophy on an assumption, namely, that reality exists. It seems like a ridiculous argument, but it's true. How can one know anything if one does not know that one knows? How can one know if one does not exist?
And Rand took it one step further, stating that even if we cannot ever know reality, it exists. That was the critical moment for me, trying to develop a rational philosophy in the world. Reading that contention made me aware that even Ayn Rand, the atheist, the cruel Objectivist and greatest proponent of reason, had faith. Hers was faith in an existant, though possibly unknowable reality. So every "objective" decision she makes is based on an assumed reality, based on faith in our senses and the powers of our minds to interpret reality, which is purely subjective.
That is why no rational argument can take place regarding supernatural beings. We must either make the assumption that our rational minds are capable of interpreting reality, or we must make the assumption that a god or gods exist. Either way, we've gotta have faith.
The comment above, however, which states: "atheists are guilty of the same ignorance for not believing in a God that they can't prove does not exist", is ridiculous, because it assumes that we must believe in everything whose existence we cannot disprove, which is most certainly irrational.
Which is why I'm agnostic, about God and about reality. I cannot willingly base my decisions on faith.
Fri Aug 25, 10:16:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
"An authentically religious attitude prevents man from presuming to judge God, accusing him of allowing poverty and failing to have compassion for his creatures. When people claim to build a case against God in defence of man, on whom can they depend when human activity proves powerless?" - Pope Benedict XVI, encyclical letter 'Deus Caritas Est'
Fri Aug 25, 10:27:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
its funny that an overwhelming amount of geniuses in science that have advanced our technology and our understanding of the universe were christians..... how ironic
or is it??
Could it be that it takes a belief in an orderly God to search for patterns and reasons, and order in our universe. If GOd made the universe would his universe not mirror Him?
God gave the earth over to Man....I guess our world mirrors us better than God
Fri Aug 25, 10:45:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
"... no death or sin until Satan tempted Eve into eating the apple from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil...." I wonder what it would be like with out that knowledge? Indiscriminate killings, fornicating with all types of creatures at any time and place. There would be no laws because we wouldn't know "what we should or shouldn't do". In short, since we have free will but no reasoning of good or evil, it would be anarchy as we act on our base urges.
Fri Aug 25, 10:52:00 AM 2006
Ryan said...
If the writers of the Biblical texts believed that God was the cause of all those deaths (which we should assume they did, since they wrote it) then how were they able to retain the hope of salvation by the very God who seems to hungry for blood? Don’t we judge the winner of war, by the standard of those who have annihilated the most souls? So we then could declare God the winner. If we consider the Bible to be a narrative of the acts of God, and thus, a very one sided (pro-God) account, shouldn’t we entertain the idea that somewhere there is Satan’s account where God manages to only kill a few folks, while Satan manages to maim and kill millions. I mean, lets be fair.
Fri Aug 25, 10:53:00 AM 2006
Ryan said...
to = so
Fri Aug 25, 10:54:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
Anonymous said...
Also, if there were massive churches built to honor Peter Rabbit, and most of our government representatives believed in the Easter Bunny, then yes, those would also be worth debating.
---^ Beautifully said ^---
Fri Aug 25, 12:42:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Doesn't anyone relieze that Satan is the one who tempted Adam and Eve. He started sin. "For the wages of sin is death". All deaths are by his doing. God made a perfect world without death and Satan messed it up because he wished he could be God. So all 2 million deaths in the bible and every death through out the history of Earth is Satan's fault. God sent Jesus as a way for us to get eternal life back.
Fri Aug 25, 01:04:00 PM 2006
peliROJO said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Fri Aug 25, 01:16:00 PM 2006
Humorous said...
Have you guys ever thought of Satan being just a feeling of 'doubt'? Seriously, who wasn't born with doubt? It wasn't Satan who penetrated her mind and forced her to eat it. She doubted herself if she wanted to eat it or not. It's was a test of will and belief. Apparently, she didn't have both. =/
Fri Aug 25, 01:41:00 PM 2006
Revenant said...
anon said:
"Doesn't anyone relieze that Satan is the one who tempted Adam and Eve. He started sin. "For the wages of sin is death". All deaths are by his doing. God made a perfect world without death and Satan messed it up because he wished he could be God. So all 2 million deaths in the bible and every death through out the history of Earth is Satan's fault. God sent Jesus as a way for us to get eternal life back."
For the record: the Old testimant does not even show the existance of a devil, and the bibles written immediately after the death of jesus christ don't state it. The FIRST references to the devil do not come into play until the 9th century AD. There is, and never has been a reference to Satan as the serpent. The serpent stands on it's own. Any drawn conclusions based upon bibles today is irrelivant. I say this as BOTH a reverend AND an athiest. God did not make a perfect world. God made a world without knowledge of Good and Evil. That is not a perfect world. ANY ignorance prevents there being a chance of a perfect world. Science can't be a cover for atheism though. Science is the human exploration of the universe. It cannot prove anything right or wrong until we understand everything about it. And since we will never understand everything about it, it's a mute point. Also, the current version of the bible took form over 250 years after jesus's death. I'd love to see anyone live that long. This argument will never end. But simply put, whatever you believe nobody will comprimise in it. If there is a god, i'm wrong, so be it. But i'm not going to be doing a dance if i'm right.
Personally to whomever wrote the Peter Rabbit comment, that simply was the most amazing thing of a well versed arguement that has taken on here. Man created God, and God shaped men. Live with it.
Fri Aug 25, 05:23:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
To whoever wrote the comment about Ayn Rand, I think I love you. Rand got me through a strict Catholic high school, but let me down in college. Her idea of rational self-interest and the value of the ego sticks with me, though. The existence or nonexistence of God seems secondary to the definite existence of ourselves. Anyway, I just wanted to tell you that I love you.
Fri Aug 25, 06:50:00 PM 2006
duri said...
your blog sucks! stop writing u dumbass pervert!
Fri Aug 25, 07:48:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
ok first, to whomever is posting about satan causing eve to eat the apple and so on. you are wrong. sorry but that was a serpent not satan. and in some circles, and i am included in this, the serpent is a dragon. why? because what other creature in history besides man could speak? not to mention the serpent was not a serpent until AFTER it was punished. then it's legs were taken away and it was forced to crawl the earth. which would tie into science in a crazy way if you connect dragons and dinosaurs together and assume that extinction of the dinosaurs came right before an abundance of snakes.
also the bible could very well be real, but it is NOT complete and it is NOT translated correctly. what version do use? king james? who the hell is he and what does he have to do with it. he knows nothing. that version is translated to make things easier to understand which really just causes half of the bible's true meaning to be lost. and don't get me started on the purpose for the bible. it may originally have been meant for good purposes but i agree with the previous post. it became a simple tool to mold men into dutiful sheep obeying their masters. note the obeyance of the men in the bible, and the absence of women. if the women aren't sluts, evil or giving birth (or barren) they simply aren't important enough to talk about. what message does this send?
as far as satan and god being good or bad i should point out that i have studied and looked into many religions and christianity is the ONLY one i have found so far that says that one is good and one is not. everyone else believes that man TRULY is in their god's image, for their gods have moods and feeling just as we do. their gods are all things and intentions at the same time.
and yes i do personally know a satanist. there are different types i gather. there are some that literally worship the devil but they are few and far between. the most popular thing seems to be the levey satanism. where they really do worship themselves. it sounds alot like that crazy scientology where they believe that human beings are gods. only they are more selfish. i would also like to point out that christianity states the same thing. for they tell us that god/jesus is inside everyone of us.
in short, science, christianity, new age beliefs, and all other religions can be tied together if you think about. it's all just remakes of the same movie.
Sat Aug 26, 12:33:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
"Maybe I should clarify. I would like those who say that Christians don't use facts to show some of their own to refute Christianity or the authenticity of the Bible."
In the Bible, the entire globe is flooded, and one man gathers up two of every animal on Earth in a big boat.
This is a fact?
Sat Aug 26, 02:12:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
God saved those people...He didn't kill them...He saved them from people like you,who dont see the big picture which is : People who die with clear soul,are taken to God , the other ones to the satan...
Sat Aug 26, 12:30:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
ok, who says dying is such a bad thing... I mean, if Christians believe that you move to a better, more "perfect" place, then wouldn't God just be doing us a favor? Maybe thats the whole point... Everyone just goes thru life on Earth to fill a certain purpose, then once that purpose is fulfilled, there is no need to remain is such a crappy place compared the "perfect" Heaven. So he lets us die, and travel to the place that would make us happy forever.
As someone mentioned a while ago, there is a difference between killing, and murdering...
Sat Aug 26, 12:48:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
ALAN HAVLICK SAID,I BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS THE CHRIST THE SON OF GOD WHO DIED FOR MY SINS AND WAS RAISED FROM DEATH TO LIVE AGIAN WITH GOD,I HAVE EXAMINED ALL THE RELIGIONS AND HAVE LISTENED AS GOD WAS CAREFULLY AND COMPLETELY DISPROVEN BY WISE MEN AND UNBELIEVERS YET I CHOOSE TO BELIEVE,IF I AM WRONG I LOSE NOTHING IF YOU ARE WRONG.... AND I DONT CARE IF THE NUMBER IS INFINITY TO ZILCH, AGIAN, I CHOOSE TO BELIEVE.
Sat Aug 26, 06:27:00 PM 2006
P.T. Galt said...
Notice how the Christian responses are all some variant of "It's OK for God to kill because [insert their preferred justification here]"
Translation: God is above the law. Since any moral code worthy of the name ought to rule out murder and torture at the very least, and the Biblical deity is portrayed doing both on a massive scale, and the latter for eternity, it is clear that God cannot be considered morally "good" in any sense.
The very best that could be said for him is that he is an amoral entity, like a hurricane or the Borg--simply Power unconstrained by ethics or even unaware of it. However, his repeated claims of "righteousness" seems to rule that out.
Since eternal torture would be unacceptable to a being possesssed of even minimal levels of empathy, we are left with no choice but to consider him... >pinky finger to corner of mouth< ...Eeeevil.
Sat Aug 26, 06:51:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Ahh religion, the fun we have. The system is pointless, it is far too binary to work. God creates everything and rules it all in omnipotence. Yes? Lest you negate the all knowing, all seeing and all powerful god. And yet sets up a system with an equaly as influencial source of "Absolute" evil Satan, now with all this in mind, he then gives his creations the angels no free will, they are his servants in the Kingdom of Heaven and the race of man freewill on earth. Obviously the kingdom of heaven is modeled on the kingdoms of earth from that time period, an entire class of servants (angels) and the greater population (men) who serve one king (god) who appoints an angel or another creation of his (satan) to a position of great power. For some unknown reason god decides to give us freewill and yet people that believe in god say he has a plan for everyone. We either follow him and live our life according to the will of god or we burn in hell at the descretion of gods creation satan the barron of hell. AN ultimatum is cast down or you are cast down, use your freewill to conform to god's will or burn in hell. Still if god is all powerful he then would be able to be the creator, temptor and punisher of the wicked. He doesn't need the servant satan in the mix, he is perfectly capable of doing satan's job himself. Yet he has persisted in creating and allowing to exist a polar opposite who's only function is to temp men away from god and rule their souls in the afterlife. aside from the fact that this ultimately makes satan pointless and unnecessary it does help people define their lives through dichotomy. black and white make the world easier to deal with, simplifying the struggle of life with a balanced good and evil system with no room for grey area. There are very few absolutes most of it is random interpretation. what is moral is up to you, or you can just give up deciding for yourself and let god or the alleged word of god direct you. Surrender to the will of an unseen unpresent force and become a conscript. or stand alone
The afterlife is a whole other subject for debate later, when we get down to the soul among other things.
Sun Aug 27, 12:03:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
So what is the point? If God is the righteous and holy being that he claims to be in the Bible and CREATED all things, he has the right to pronounce judgement upon his creation. Actually, it is apparent that, in the light of the sin of all me, he has "elected" a small number to eternal life and doomed the rest of ALL MEN to destruction. That 's from the view of the Bible, of course.
Sun Aug 27, 01:56:00 PM 2006
Michael Price said...
Anonymous said...
Satan cannot take lives on earth without God's permission. Be thankful that he doesn't let him out for a free for all.
Where do you get that? Remember when he tempted Jesus with promises of giving him the whole earth? Why didn't Jesus question his ability to do that? The only possible reason is that he knew Satan could deliver. That amount of power can _definetly_ kill people without God's permission. Which leads to the question, why did God let the supposed epitamy of evil run the kingdoms of the world? As for the idea that it's OK for God to kill people because dying might not be bad if that's so why does he use it as punishment?
Sun Aug 27, 05:00:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
"As for the idea that it's OK for God to kill people because dying might not be bad if that's so why does he use it as punishment?"
So you go to Hell sooner. ;)
Mon Aug 28, 12:05:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
well, satan is said to be the great deceiver. He destroys masses by way of corrpution. God (by what the bible is trying to teach) is trying to purify the earth of sin and satans influence. This is why he has killed so many. To play the devils advocate (clever termonology given the subject) I must say that god is seen as the evil and evil as the righteous as well. This is why Lucifer was cast from heaven. Satans view is one of a perverbial moses, liberating us from god tyranny. So the whole subject is reletive, God trys to remove sin and satan, satan trys to overthrow an infaulable god. Who is actually righteous is up to opinion. But the Old Testament's "god" was vengeful it was nothing but "Smite this, burn that, kill them, save some of them, kill some more" once the new testement comes, its all about a peaceful loveing god and jesus, etc. So This proves that the bible is a book of lessons. First it was Fear God. He is protecting you, but you will be punished if you go astray. Then once jesus came into the picture he (or the writers of the scripture used in the modern bible) preached of a loving god, who will forgive you for your trespasses. The killing by god himself ends with the birth of his only son. On satans behalf one should read PARADISE LOST because there is whole new rant coming from that part of literature. Just be reminded that the bible isn't absolute. Many scriptures were not included, gnostic texts were burned even though they were key to inter-religious understanding, Non of the gospels used in the bible have an original copy (they are all interpretaions and translations, and there can be more than one copy per gospel/spripture and most times there are key inconsistancies between those copies) Well that is my trivial rant. don't listen to the bible like its set in stone, it has helpful lessons for life, but remember that the thing that can really lead you through spiritual and physical life is your own mind. Learn your lessons, but don't forget to think for yourself from time to time. Peace
Mon Aug 28, 11:38:00 PM 2006
Pouya said...
interesting numbers...
Wed Aug 30, 01:04:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
I might say that "God" and "Satan" don't exist, therefore the discussion is moot. But then, I've spent too many hours arguing about the Feanorians in Tolkien's Silmarillion to ever use that argument. :)
But really... the God of the Christian Bible is quite violent. And as to those who say that Satan "kills people" by making them go to hell, I'll quote Mark Twain: "Heaven for the climate, hell for the company."
Just think: Plato, Socrates, Aristotle, Hypatia of Alexandria, Pericles, Cleopatra, Goethe, Ingersol, Thomas Jefferson... the list goes on and on.
So if hell exists, bring it on!
Wed Aug 30, 01:24:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
Consider this... Good and evil are parallel concepts just like light and dark or life and death. One can not exist without the other. If God did create everything then He created both good and evil and must possess both of these qualities in order to truly understand them. So to think of God as purely good when He created everything (including Satan) lacks any logic at all.
Sun Sep 03, 08:31:00 PM 2006
jasonmatthewgreen said...
Of course God killed more than satan. Before satan could kill someone he had to have permission from God first!
Fri Sep 08, 02:48:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
There is no such thing as death to the believer's soul. The flesh dies but the soul does not. It is man that kills. Man kills his own soul when he does not believe truly in God. The Holy Bible is a book written by man to tell how Christians should live for a more moral life. There is no human sacrifices for believers. Thou shalt not kill is an order given as a commandment for us to follow. It also says to fear God for He is more powerful than Satan who He cast down. Why should we not fear God? Yes, he can kill us...but our soul remains. Anyone can kill a Christian but can they stop our soul from coming back to haunt them who don't believe?
Sun Sep 17, 11:55:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
Something to consider is that a lot those people weren't innocent. Read up on Soddom and Gamorah. There weren't even 10 good people in those two cities. Read why God sent Noah's flood. The people on the earth were wicked. Also, with the fiery serpents, God made a serpent of brass that could be looked at so the people bit wouldn't die.
Then as long as we are going to do the wheels within wheels, whose fault is it that death came into the word? People disobyed God, which brought death into the world. Who tricked people into disobeying God? Satan.
Tue Sep 19, 04:39:00 PM 2006
Silvertail said...
Hmm, it only says that the young men died, wouldn't that make the specific death toll 7?
Wed Sep 27, 11:54:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Why is it that if a man were to stand amongst a crowd and start giving his opinion on life in a loud and concise manner, he would be regarded as a mad man? I am speaking of pure opinion based on what the senses can intake, and what the brain makes of this input. Or better yet, why is man afraid to enact such a show? Is it because he is afraid that his opinion won’t be able to compete with that of the people in the crowd? Is he afraid that he will be jeered at? Or perhaps he fears rejection or even worse, physical harm. Or maybe is he afraid that the people might actually respond, and come to the general consensus that there is much humans don’t know, and might never know.
To be a Christian means to follow Christ and accept him as savior, thus erasing one’s sins. This begs the question, why would one care if his sins were erased, seeing that they have already happened. (and, can you erase history?) Or, if one decided that since he felt bad after making fun of Cousin Sue, he wouldn’t do that anymore, therefore learning from his mistake/sin??? Why do we need our sins to be erased? So we won’t go to Hell? Or so we will finally be able to meet God? And why do other people care so much that we make it to heaven? So it won’t appear so much as a selfish enterprise? Let us ponder this for a moment…we follow religion because it promises a prize. Isn’t that pure selfishness to spend so much time and effort (well some folks anyway) into something that promises eternal bliss for ME? If Jesus said, “accept Me into your heart and repent of your sins and I will allow one random person into heaven” (which would actually be a sacrifice, the most selfless action possible) how many people would still be Christians? To be guaranteed eternal life, every person would have to accept Christ in order to have the concrete assuredness of eternal life. And the chances of that are next to 0.
Fear. As it was mentioned earlier in this blog, we are all fearful. Fear is what drives us to religion. Where does fear come from? Well we become fearful when something is looming on the horizon that is either threatening us in a way we know about or we don’t know what it is, hence causing fear. Does fear serve a good purpose? Of course it does! It allows the protection of our personal well being. Which is why it is the perfect tool for religion. Does the afterlife fall under one of the two categories for fear? Well, either we believe that something bad might happen, i.e. Hell, or we think of all the things that might happen, which actually causes more fear, because it actually greatly increases in number the bad things that could happen after we die (aside from dying)
To anyone who might chance upon this – I know that these thoughts are slightly random and it might be a little hard to follow my train of thought and I apologize for that.
To sum up my thoughts on humans – Man is selfish, fearful, and knows very little! If he weren’t selfish he wouldn’t care what happened after he died. He would just accept it.
Fri Oct 06, 12:46:00 AM 2006
Chip Hardwood said...
Come on, let's be reasonable. What about all the good things Satan did? Rock Music, Swear words, Chris Angel:The Mind Freak. And what has God given us? The circumcision.
Sorry God, I didn't mean it.
Tue Oct 10, 11:14:00 AM 2006
VoidChilde said...
Not personally going to argue with Christianity itself, however as for the bible....
Fact is the bible was written and later editted by the Real Establishment of the time, the church. Its main purpose was to give the masses a reason to live with how they were forced to live, without rebellion, whilst continueing to work diligently for the authorities. And since its creation it has been translated multiple times from greek to finally english, further muddying the waters with many different translators interpretations of the language.
Whether you believe in Christianity or not, the fact remains that the original tenents of the religion are admirable and gentle. Its a shame that the religious book has been misused to "Legalise" some of the greatest atrocities ever seen.
Wed Oct 11, 01:03:00 PM 2006
UFCboss said...
the answer is simple, satan doesnt actually kill he has no power over us to kill, god is the creator of all. god certainly has his values and reasons for doing what he does, such as the twin towers, its incredibally sad and tradgic that so many people had to die, but according to the bible they were people without the word of god on their foreheads, this is true as the world trade center was major trading source, and it was full of corrupt people, that were dealing with unfair trade, not everyboday died, just the ones that didnt believe in god, there were people who actually survived and pulled out alive from the rubble, everyone says that day was when america woke up, the rest of the world needs to wake up, watch the world trade center movie to underrstand this clearer and why we are all here and how we have changed since the corrupted internet and gansta rap, satanism and bad media. its amazing how we all have to suffer a great loss, trauma or tradgedy before we all learn, which is sad, but hey we are only human, if we were perfect we wud be god.
Thu Oct 26, 03:58:00 AM 2006
UFCboss said...
someone mentioned the tsunami, further up the page shame i cant reply directly, but if you ask me tsunami was not a natural disaster at all, i thought it was a bomb by a goverment which one im not completely sure, altough i have my suspicions with technology nowadays you are 99% proptected from natural desasters with a warning. there was no warning a earth quake at sea, or a tsunami that size should have been noticed.
Thu Oct 26, 04:22:00 AM 2006
Magnus said...
I dont know, but acording to the Bible Satan looks like a nicer guy lol.
Tue Oct 31, 11:17:00 AM 2006
Kelley said...
According to the Bible, Satan brought death into the world. The deaths are all a result of Satan.
Thu Nov 02, 12:10:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Who created more people, God or Satan? Last I checked God created everyone, including the terrible spellers on this site. Satan didn't create anyone. So as far as life goes it's God everything, Satan nothing. God even created Satan, and is going to destroy him. Does this make God good because he created all life? or bad because He decreed death, however it happens? Actually outside of God how do you call anything 'good?' He created 'good' and 'evil.' Good is what he tells us to do, bad is what he tells us not to do. Its that simple. All we can say about good and bad outside of God is that we like something and don't like something else. Why is it that what some illiterate blogger likes becomes 'good' and what he/she doesn't like is 'bad.' Go learn something then write about it instead of going on pathetic, self-interested opinions based on perverted ideas.
Mon Nov 13, 05:31:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
While I do not argue the fact that you have brought up a valid point. The supportive reasoning lies in the nature of God's character and governing laws of justice.
(Proverbs 14:11-12) - The house of the WICKED SHALL BE OVERTHROWN: but the tabernacle of the UPRIGHT SHALL FLOURISH. 12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
God never allowed destruction to come upon anyone who stood in righteousness. If a person fails to adhere to upright counsel, their way is bound to lead to their own corruption. A muderer believes his or her actions is the solution to their situation. To a rapist it seems right to fulfil their personal fantasy than to respect the life and privacy of their victim. To the drug dealer, it seems right to make a fortune at the expense of their customer's life shattering. There are laws that govern all of these actions, and failure to comply leads to severe measures. Likewise it is so in the bible as it is now.
The foundation of Christianity is based on the fact that under the new covenant (new testament), we too are bound for death until we come into agreement with the Lord that what we held to be correct is actually wrong. By repenting of our error (and not proudly saying we have no error), we escape the death associated with our wrong by Jesus taking the penalty upon himself. We don't deserve it, but it is available to all who will surrender to the Savior - Jesus Christ.
Romans 3:23 reminds us that we all have sinned. Romans 6:23 helps us to understand that death is associated with sin. (Sin is literally the pathway to death). The good news is that Romans 5:8 spells out the demonstration of His love for us in spite of our sinfulness. Just like those He is accused of killing were given warning first (which was a demonstration of His love), He does the same for us today. To ignore it means we are bound for eternal death.
Romans 10:9-13 says "...if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation [being saved from the oncoming death]. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
His Word speaks for Himself. To isolate PASSAGES (removing them from their context) is bound to lead to misinterpretation. The ultimate point is... Who will receive your worship.... Satan or God? All of us will yield to one or the other-
Tue Nov 14, 04:28:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
To isolate passages? Oh, that's rich! Once again, the Christian can be a literalist when it is advantageous to be so, and metaphorical or allegorical when that is the better way to go, too! Sorry, Charlie - can't have it both ways. Yeshua (Iesous/Jesus) told the Jews their father was the Devil, did he not? Yeshua told the Jews their father was a liar and a murderer from the beginning, did he not? Yeshua told the Jews that their father spoke no truth and that there was no truth in him, did he not? Now then, if you have spent much time in the Old Testament before sashaying on over to the four gospels, who is it that IS THE FATHER OF THE JEWS? Yehovah/Yahweh, the LORD God of Israel! The LORD (Yahweh) IS the god of this world. The LORD (Yahweh) has a name, has been seen by many men, has walked the earth, got into a good 'ole wrestling match with a dude, argued back and forth over wether or not some lady was too old to have a baby or not, landed in a 'glory of the LORD craft' multiple times, and put fear into the minds of his chosen which today is preached by the religions of this world as "God's holiness!" Give me a break, friend! Behold! The greatest deception of mankind! The "God" worshipped in all the churches, preached about on Christian television, sung about in all the cathedrals, is the Devil and the saw-tawn (it's not a name)! Yeshua said to pray in secret - not openly! Yeshua said to give to the needy in secret - not openly with a tax credit form! Yeshua (and others) said that the TRUE God, the One and the True Light, HAS NEVER BEEN SEEN, HAS NEVER BEEN HEARD! Get a clue, my dearly deceived friend. Yahweh goes around boasting that he is god and there is none other besides him. Yahweh (the LORD) goes around saying its a really bad thing to burn your children sacrificially, yet is a complete hypocrite throughout the whole Abraham and Jephthah ordeals. Yehovah proclaims the superiority of men over women, but Yeshua proclaims that wisdom (Sophia) is justified by ALL HER CHILDREN! And, AND, keep in mind that the Christ was not "crucified" because of some glorious plan of salvation of the LORD God of Israel. The Man from Galilee was 'hung on a cross' because that is precisely what Yehovah said to do with a prophet, a dreamer, and someone who comes amongst the people to turn their attention from Yahweh himself! The Christ was 'hung on a cross' for preaching and teaching against the LORD.
Oh yeah . . . your god is an awesome god, alright!
Thu Nov 30, 08:06:00 PM 2006
beepbeepitsme said...
RE hell
You Are SO Damned!
http://beepbeepitsme.blogspot.com/2006/12/you-are-so-damned.html
Mon Dec 04, 08:49:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Dear beepbeepitsme,
If your definition of being "Damned" equates to my no longer being in covenant with the LORD God/Yahweh who walked the earth, and who told his "chosen" to kill, steal and destroy, who commanded a man to sacrificially burn his son and made an oath/pact with another man that led to the sacrificial burning of that man's daughter, who repeatedly slays and kills human beings, who boasts and roars that he is the only god, who manipulates societies and communities against one another, then . . . I COMPLETELY EMBRACE BEING "DAMNED" as you put it.
Frankly, the freedom, wisdom, direction and synchronicity that I am enjoying since saying "see ya!" to evangelical Christianity is, well . . . beyond what I can say here in this format.
Blessings in the True Light, to all who are dead, blind, or asleep in the tomb of their faith.
Wed Dec 06, 05:38:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
I think you guys are nuts to think that satan is in any way a symbol of good. God is God, the only God, and God is good. Just to clarify that.
*Father forgive them, for they know not what they say.*
Wed Dec 13, 02:35:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Of course, it was man that wrote all this. And most of that death WAS caused by nature. So maybe this is all just a bunch of ignorance? Never follow those who sell fear. Never believe in those that create dependence. And never pay head to those who seek to anger. All of this is ignorance. For God gave us free will not to depend on what another man says but to find the divine within ourselves. The closer we walk to divinity, the more light that shines on us. And I have never found that benevolent force to be at all vengeful or even violent. We sew our own seeds in this world. The game of life is set up for us to see our true selves. Eventually, through our own actions, through creating our own pain, we turn another way to experience grace and view glory.
Mon Jan 15, 05:47:00 AM 2007
Anonymous said...
[giylah_nshar] says:
If GOD is real...
-He can do _anything_ HE wants and nobody can question HIM.
-HE can KILL all of us in one instant if HE chooses to... whether we like it or not.
-We can call HIM evil, bad, manipulator, tyrant, whatever... but in the end, HE has the final say.
If GOD is NOT real...
-why is the earth a suitable place for us to live? When I became conscious of my environment -it's already there.. i did not create the earth and everything but they are there in "working condition" -at least so we are alive
If GOD is real..
-He cannot be mocked. Man reaps what he sows.
If anyone of you mocking what people believe about God can create something as great as the universe... let him prove himself... if you say "to see is to believe"... show us all how great you are that we might believe in you.
If you want those who believe in GOD to prove He is real.. "open your eyes"... it's already there, you just don't want to accept it.
Tue Jan 16, 04:43:00 AM 2007
Anonymous said...
One thing that bugs me is that if there is the Lord, why does he not make himself more manifest, more expicit?
Why must we worship a being who has retreated from us?
I understand that God's appeared to many through the gency of voice, fire and angelic vision, yet why must we always wonder for proof of physical on sensible explanation?
Albeit the fact that seven generations after creation the Earth's inhabitants started to transgress in total ignorance of the allegded knowledge about God, does that suggest that a later generation like us nears a similar fate?
Fri Jan 19, 08:52:00 PM 2007
Anonymous said...
Richard Dawkins - Root of all Evil
A Documentary that puts things in perspective.
Google it or look for it on bit torrent
Excellent Documentary.
Wed Jan 24, 05:55:00 AM 2007
Anonymous said...
Judaism, Roman Catholicism, Christianity, Orthodoxy, and Islam. All of the world's major religions originate from, and are in covenant with, a superior being whose name is Yawweh, Yehovah, Allah, or as ignorant Christians call him, "LORD." Of course, LORD is nothing more than a middle-English replacement for YHWH. People of the world, Gnosticism and Paganism lost to literalist Christianity and the political power mongers of the Roman Church. Jewish scribes rewrote the New Testament gospels in order to make them appear as if Yeshua (Iesous/Jesus) is sent by Yahweh, the LORD, with a message of "forgiveness." However, with your eyes open and without the fog of religious dogma, one can clearly discern that Yeshua's message is one of freedom from Yahweh, the LORD God of Israel. Further, the Jews crucify Yeshua because that is precisely what Yehovah told them to do; that if a dreamer, a prophet, and one who performs signs comes into their midst and tells them of another "god," they (the Jews) are to stone/kill that messenger. Read through John; the Jews are repeatedly trying to catch Yeshua and stone him. So, with the rewrite in hand, the enlightened man is magically transformed into the, "Son of God (Yahweh)." How very clever, but how incredibly manipulative.
Over and over again, Yeshua makes it clear that his Father is unknown, unseen, and unheard of by mankind. Well then, just who in the world is it that WAS known, WAS seen, and WAS heard of by the "chosen people" of the LORD? In the Old Testament, Yehovah walks about with violent fits of rage, orders his people to kill, steal and destroy other societies and cultures, and is a complete hypocrite and sends or places a lying spirit upon people! Wake up already! Yeshua tells the Jews that their father - Yahweh, the LORD - is the devil! Yeshua tells the Jews that their father is a murderer and a liar! Wake up! Who is it that our Bibles clearly demonstrate to us that IS the "father of the Jews?" The "LORD GOd" of the Old Testament, that's who!
Yeshua said that the One who sent him is not one to kill human beings, is not the originator of "the Law," is not worshipped in the Temple, and is unknown to the human race. The LORD/Yahweh IS known, get it?
Yeshua wasn't hung on a cross as some sort of sickly, grotesque message of sacrifice in order to lead people to forgiveness and eternal life! How sick and deranged is that concept! Yeshua was killed for attempting to turn the Jews from their god - the devil - who is a superior being, but is clearly not THE SUPREME BEING.
Sat Jan 27, 06:05:00 AM 2007
Anonymous said...
Satan's death toll has to be upped. Many courts have accepted 'The devil made me do it' as a excuse to murder.
Sun Jan 28, 06:22:00 PM 2007
Anonymous said...
My ways are not ur ways neither My thoughts ur thoughts. as high as the heaven is from the earth so are My ways from ur ways and my thoguhts from ur thoughts - taken from isaiah 55.
meaning what we think is unacceptable ont his is is acceptable to God and what we think is acceptable here is not To God. worldly thinking has been twisted since the fall of man so the way God works is unknown to us fully. "we know in part and we see in part". God is just and what He does is just. it's up to us whether we accept it or not.
It is not God's will for us to perish, but we perish because of lack of understanding. =)
Mon Jan 29, 04:57:00 AM 2007
Anonymous said...
And wasn,t one of gods 10 commandmants
"thou shalt not kill"
hmmm good job genious
Thu Feb 01, 03:15:00 AM 2007
Anonymous said...
[giylah_nshar] says:
Yeah... "thou shalt not kill" and "anyone who is so much as angry with a brother or sister is guilty of murder". Isn't that cool? ;)
And you can argue that God is violating His own rules. Or as someone said, God YHWH is the devil in disguise. Yet some may say that this is blasphemy.
However way we look at all these...
And though so much can be said...
We only prove that we are restless beings trying to figure out the unknown.
Science knows much but science doesn't know it all.
We can be so intelligent and so logical from our own point of view but unless we come to that point of knowing all things... we are all subject to deception. But sadly... knowing that we might be deceiving and are being decieved hurts our pride.
And some can argue that it is God Himself who is deceiving us... Well, go ahead and say what you want! God, if He is real, is allowing us to say anything we want... at least we are sure of this if we are still alive right now and speaking whatever.
Again, I'll say, that unless we come to that point of knowing all things... we are all subject to deception. And sadly... knowing that we might be deceiving and are being decieved hurts our pride.
Many of us can't afford to stop until we know all truth.
But when will we know?
Many of us can't afford to have someone else dictate what we ought to believe because we are sure that other people also do not know all things.
Only by ourselves will we know if we have somehow encountered God who knows all things... if God is indeed real.
Only by ourselves will we know if God is indeed real.
May all our eyes be opened!
But someone may ask me: "How about you, are your eyes already opened?"
I will say:
I am sure that He will continue to reveal Himself to me despite all my weaknesses 'cause I seek Him, not myself, nor any man's approval.
Truth is between me and God... but who shall believe me?
Believe me or not, it's up to you.
It's up to you to seek.
Thu Feb 01, 05:24:00 AM 2007
Anonymous said...
How funny is this? It's 2007 and people actually still take the bible literally! I'll have to be brief, I've got to go and change as I've just pissed myself laughing. :D
Fri Feb 02, 06:02:00 AM 2007
Kê!τh™ said...
To Rebecca, also, a promise was made that took priority over genetics. When she became pregnant by our one-of-a-kind ancestor, Isaac, and her babies were still innocent in the womb—incapable of good or bad—she received a special assurance from God. What God did in this case made it perfectly plain that his purpose is not a hit-or-miss thing dependent on what we do or don't do, but a sure thing determined by his decision, flowing steadily from his initiative. God told Rebecca, "The firstborn of your twins will take second place." Later that was turned into a stark epigram: "I loved Jacob; I hated Esau."
14-18Is that grounds for complaining that God is unfair? Not so fast, please. God told Moses, "I'm in charge of mercy. I'm in charge of compassion." Compassion doesn't originate in our bleeding hearts or moral sweat, but in God's mercy. The same point was made when God said to Pharaoh, "I picked you as a bit player in this drama of my salvation power." All we're saying is that God has the first word, initiating the action in which we play our part for good or ill.
19Are you going to object, "So how can God blame us for anything since he's in charge of everything? If the big decisions are already made, what say do we have in it?"
20-33Who in the world do you think you are to second-guess God? Do you for one moment suppose any of us knows enough to call God into question? Clay doesn't talk back to the fingers that mold it, saying, "Why did you shape me like this?" Isn't it obvious that a potter has a perfect right to shape one lump of clay into a vase for holding flowers and another into a pot for cooking beans? If God needs one style of pottery especially designed to show his angry displeasure and another style carefully crafted to show his glorious goodness, isn't that all right?
Romans 9 (The Message Translation)
The only reason you question God is because you're blinded by your pride.
Wed Feb 14, 07:07:00 PM 2007
Anonymous said...
Well, there all very good points, but i think you should add this to the tally, what about all the people before the time of Jesus, my friends bible group said they all went to hell, how the hell are they suppose to know about god?, and i'm really surprised there wasn't an atheist civilization.
Mon Feb 19, 12:11:00 AM 2007
Anonymous said...
satan is just something that Christians use to explain all the bad things that happen because apparently their God doesn't do any of that bad shit...look through your so called bible and look at all of the horrible things your God does...you people who beleive are so ignorant that you will blindly follow anything that doesn't make any sense...open your eyes
Mon Feb 19, 12:27:00 PM 2007
Anonymous said...
Alternatively, you could argue that Satan was really in power then and has been for some time. Some of the strange and also not so strange theories tells us that God allowed Satan out for 1000 years in the Old Testament and 1000 years in the NT (which is still going on today), every now and again. They say that God did this because Satan and him and a bet going on that Satan could/couldn't turn everyone away from God. If God turned Satan down (or killed him), then the question of whether this could ever actually happen, would always be there. So God decided to try and prove him wrong. Satan has a set amount of time to fulfil this. They claim that nearly all religions were started by Satan such as Islam, Buddism, Judaism etc... so that people worship Satan, but think they are worshipping God, thus turning away from him. They say that Christianity is the only true religion, as that was the religion of the followers of Jesus. But most churhces are basically screwed in their chances of getting into heaven. Catholics murdered billions in hundreds of wars; Anglicans killed the Germans in WW2, etc... The only true religion left is Jehovah Witness. And as long as someone in the world belongs to this, then Satan loses. Now the theory goes that when Judgement Day comes, if God has won the bet then his 'true' people will live forever in heaven and the rest of us will spend our time not in hell, just dead. If he loses, then we will all be confined to the pits of a firey hell. It is said that when judgement day is close, Satan will have his sign on the beginning, middle and end of everything. So here's the freaky bit. Satan's sign is the number 6. And every object that you buy has a barcode on it. If you look at the middle, beginnig and end of every barcode, you will see two little lines, those lines represent the number six. SO is judgement day coming, or is it just a bizarre coincedence? You decide.
Tue Feb 20, 09:51:00 AM 2007
Anonymous said...
God was created by man to control the masses
Fri Feb 23, 02:31:00 PM 2007
Anonymous said...
Mankind has difficulty with the concept of evil being the creation of a good and caring God, so it has severed all matters of evil from God and has attributed it to another being called satan.
Wed Feb 28, 09:45:00 AM 2007
Anonymous said...
God only created Adam and Eve for the rest of mankind science did its work. so God is way more evil then Satan. But it could also be the other way around that means that Satan is actually the good guy and that God is evil. Because the bible was written by men it depends on what type of character these persons had(good or evil). this means that when an evil person wrote the bible god is actually evil aswell because in the eyes of the writter God is a good thing/person.
Think about this before you start defending your religion thats costed over billions of lives to become an accepted religion.
Thu Mar 29, 03:37:00 PM 2007
Anonymous said...
http://sphaks.nainwak.com/god-v-satan-v-jackBauer.png
Thu Apr 05, 08:40:00 AM 2007
Chilli said...
the Bible is like Chinese whispers...
Thu Apr 05, 09:38:00 AM 2007
Anonymous said...
whew..
good thing the bible is false and god doesnt exist :)
Thu Apr 05, 03:14:00 PM 2007
MadTurki said...
If you include stuff like God allowing an army to conquer a city, you technically have to give Satan's 10 kills to God too since he allowed satan to kill them :P
Thu Apr 05, 09:14:00 PM 2007
Anonymous said...
God plans to kill 3,300,000,000 people in the future while Satan plans to kill 0.
Wed Apr 11, 03:05:00 AM 2007
«Oldest ‹Older 1 – 200 of 229 Newer› Newest» Post a Comment
Newer Post Older Post Home
New Audiobook
New Audiobook
Subscribe to our mailing list
International SAB order
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction
Subscribe To
Posts
Atom Posts
RSS Feed
Search This Blog
powered by
A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
Blog Archive
Blog Archive April (8) March (5) February (12) January (13) December (7) November (11) October (6) September (6) August (12) July (11) June (4) May (11) April (4) March (6) February (6) January (10) December (9) November (13) October (14) September (10) August (5) July (9) June (7) May (10) April (12) March (12) February (5) January (3) December (2) November (6) October (5) September (13) August (6) July (4) June (6) May (7) April (13) March (10) February (4) January (8) December (8) November (8) October (11) September (6) August (12) July (8) June (21) May (8) April (13) March (28) February (36) January (17) December (11) November (11) October (29) September (14) August (9) July (17) June (9) May (6) April (7) March (9) February (5) January (11) December (2) November (3) October (5) September (8) August (6) July (4) June (8) May (8) April (11) March (8) February (3) January (3) December (4) November (3) October (5) September (1) August (1) July (2) June (2) May (1) April (2) March (2) February (4) January (6) December (6) November (11) October (9) September (8) August (12) July (15) June (16)
Contributors
Steve Wells
Philip Wells
Site Meter
Follow by Email
Watermark template. Powered by Blogger.
Dwindling In Unbelief
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
02 August 2006How many has God killed?
I kill ... I wound ... I will make my arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh. -- Deuteronomy 32:39-42
How many people did God kill in the Bible?
It's impossible to say for sure, but plenty. How many did God drown in the flood or burn to death in Sodom and Gomorrah? How many first-born Egyptians did he kill? There's just no way to count them all.
But sometimes the Bible tells us exactly how many were killed by God. So what happens if you total all of these killings? What number do you get?
Well, here's what I came up with: 2,476,633
Note that this number is a gross underestimate of the total number. It doesn't include, in many cases, women and children, and it completely leaves out some of God's more impressive kills. (Like the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, the firstborn Egyptian children, etc.)
So what happens if you use estimates when the Bible provides only numbers for adult male victims or no numbers at all?
Here's my estimate: 25 million
And here is a complete list of all of God's killings in the Bible.
Much more information about God's killings, with a chapter on each of the 135 killing events, can be found int the book:
Drunk With Blood: God's killings in the Bible
Posted by Steve Wells at 8/02/2006 08:41:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:
185 comments:
MonkeyLover said...
so in california God would DEFINITELY be sittin on death row.
Tue Aug 08, 10:36:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
You counted Nadab and Abihu twice.
Tue Aug 08, 10:32:00 PM 2006
Steve Wells said...
Thanks for the correction.
Tue Aug 08, 11:29:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
they all deserved it...
Wed Aug 09, 11:21:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
What about his own son??? Wasn't it God's plan even if others carried it out?
What would be really interesting to know is how many people God's rival, Lucifer, has murdered. Who is truly the champion in the "Death" match?
Wed Aug 09, 03:05:00 PM 2006
Brucker said...
I think you ought to make a distinction between different kinds of killing, although I have no doubt the total would be high. On one level, if you want to count anybody who died as a result of God's action, then that's everyone who ever lived.
What I think is perhaps worthwhile in looking to this list in detail is, who among these people were killed for what purpose? I would suggest these categories:
A) Killed as a result of their aggression against the nation of Israel. (example)
B) Killed as a result of enmity between them and Israel, but not specifically the violent agression of the victim in particular.(possible example)
C) Killed as a result of their sin that made God angry. (example)
D) Killed as a result of somebody else's sin. (example)
E) Reason not given. (example)
I think each of these categories deserve different consideration. Definitely A and maybe B are a matter of defensive killing. Many of those in category C make some sense from a theological point of view. I think D and E are the real tough ones.
Thu Aug 10, 12:50:00 PM 2006
ZCT said...
Outstanding, great post, very interesting. I had always known there was a lot of killing by God in the Bible, but I had never spent the time to count it up. Now I don't have to, thanks!
Fri Aug 11, 06:06:00 AM 2006
Steve Wells said...
I agree, Brucker, it would help to categorize them. Maybe I'll do that before long.
Fri Aug 11, 05:04:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
What about the flood? God killed everyone on earth except Noah and his family.
Tue Aug 15, 01:09:00 PM 2006
SoldierUnderCommand said...
The question you did not ask was; Is God justified in killing these people.
If God is who He says He is, then He is justified in all that He does. He is the ultimate standard for what is just and unjust.
He can kill who He pleases and is righteous in doing it.
Tue Aug 15, 11:41:00 PM 2006
Noumenon said...
Before linking to this, I looked to see if you were fudging the numbers and where the big numbers came from among the 1's and 2's. So I looked at the Ethiopians who contribute half the total and heck, he just "smote" them. He didn't kill them all. He just made them flee. Not like the #2 item where it tells you there were 500,000 slain. Same with the Syrians. This list, to be most persuasive, should contain only people God killed directly and not people who were killed by the Israelites in battle.
Wed Aug 16, 06:39:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
i personally dont think that someone's crime necessarily justifies their death! if you kill someone for doing something bad (even if they've killed someone), then you're just as bad as they are.
Wed Aug 16, 10:08:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Those she-bears sure loved them some good finger lickin' chil'en.
Thu Aug 17, 06:06:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
you forgot all of the kings listed in Joshua. Why don't you list all of the cities that were destroyed as well. Again, at least 12 entire cities destroyed in Joshua.
12:9 The king of Jericho, one; the king of Ai, which is beside Bethel, one;
12:10 The king of Jerusalem, one; the king of Hebron, one;
12:11 The king of Jarmuth, one; the king of Lachish, one;
12:12 The king of Eglon, one; the king of Gezer, one;
12:13 The king of Debir, one; the king of Geder, one;
12:14 The king of Hormah, one; the king of Arad, one;
12:15 The king of Libnah, one; the king of Adullam, one;
12:16 The king of Makkedah, one; the king of Bethel, one;
12:17 The king of Tappuah, one; the king of Hepher, one;
12:18 The king of Aphek, one; the king of Lasharon, one;
12:19 The king of Madon, one; the king of Hazor, one;
12:20 The king of Shimronmeron, one; the king of Achshaph, one;
12:21 The king of Taanach, one; the king of Megiddo, one;
12:22 The king of Kedesh, one; the king of Jokneam of Carmel, one;
12:23 The king of Dor in the coast of Dor, one; the king of the nations of Gilgal, one;
12:24 The king of Tirzah, one: all the kings thirty and one.
Thu Aug 17, 12:51:00 PM 2006
Steve Wells said...
Anonymous said...
"You forgot all of the kings listed in Joshua."
Yes, I suppose I could count the 31 kings that the Israelites "smote", although the text doesn't explicitly say that God assisted in their killing -- which is what I was trying to include in the count. So I'll probably leave them out.
"Why don't you list all of the cities that were destroyed as well. Again, at least 12 entire cities destroyed in Joshua."
Because the number of people killed isn't provided, and it also isn't clear that God assisted in the slaughter (although it does seem to be implied by the "Them did Moses the servant of the LORD and the children of Israel smite" in Joshua 12:6).
Thu Aug 17, 01:34:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
You will rightfully burn in the realm of nothingess forever when you die you silly fool; unless you get out of that shallow paradox you think you're so smart in and start believing in the One and Only God that created you and gave you a choice to acceot It or deny It in the fist place. And if you deny It, you will be destroyed by your own making. All Satan did was feed you many lies and prove you are an obvious sucker that has bought into this shallow thinking. Lies and people kill people, not God, not guns. Suckers like you do deserve death. But you can also save yourself by believing in Who Jesus said He was. I feel sorry for your shallow, tainted brain.
Fri Aug 18, 07:46:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
"Lies and people kill people, not God, not guns."
Either God killed Aaron's sons, or that Biblical account is a lie. Which is it?
Wed Aug 23, 12:02:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
To the dumbass "SoldierUnderCommand" who said god is just in killing people for any damned reason he pleases, by this flawed logic, a parent would be correct in murdering their own children for any damned reason they please. And of course that's not true, so neither is god justified in his murders.
Thu Aug 24, 01:09:00 PM 2006
Joshua Ditty said...
I think you have forgotten the 'man of god' from 1st Kings Chapter 13
Thu Aug 24, 04:07:00 PM 2006
Steve Wells said...
Joshua Ditty said...
I think you have forgotten the 'man of god' from 1st Kings Chapter 13.
Thanks Joshua, I've added it to the list.
Thu Aug 24, 07:02:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Jesus Christ, that's a lot of people (no pun intended)!
Thu Aug 24, 08:35:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Nice work!
It's kinda like trying to get a count of how many people Rambo killed; both killed a lot of people, both are fictional characters, thankfully!
Thu Aug 24, 09:40:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
To Mr. Caring guy who wrote this gem:
"You will rightfully burn in the realm of nothingess forever..."
...nice, wow, you seem really angry about something. I wonder why such a knowledgeable, intelligent, righteous person like you who's most definitely guaranteed a front row seat into heaven would become so upset at a few people who feel differently than you. I mean you know the truth, right? Why all the anger? I don't recall Jesus getting angry, do you? Not very Christian of you, huh?
Poor guy, you're just mad because the insecurity of your beliefs is being exposed and you don't like it! It's pretty obvious.
Thu Aug 24, 09:48:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Interesting that the only two deaths in the New Testament (After Christ has atoned for human sin) Are "ghosts" given up by the individual due to their actions...
Thu Aug 24, 09:55:00 PM 2006
ML said...
If you're being technical, you might as well add JC too...
Fri Aug 25, 04:51:00 AM 2006
Bryan Parker said...
"SoldierUnderCommand said...
The question you did not ask was; Is God justified in killing these people.
If God is who He says He is, then He is justified in all that He does. He is the ultimate standard for what is just and unjust.
He can kill who He pleases and is righteous in doing it."
Baddabing Baddaboom. You hit the point dead center.
To Mr. Anonymous who claims that parents and God are on an equal playing field, you are wrong. Let me tell you why:
The reason that parents cannot kill their sons is because we live in a world of laws.
God however, is exempt from all human laws. God is neither subject to even the laws of Physics, nor Time itself.
He is Omnipotent, and created this world that we dwell in. As the creator of the Universe, He may do so as He pleases, and as stated previously, be "righteous in doing it".
God, in a matter of speaking, has the one true 'License To Kill' that which He has created.
Fri Aug 25, 06:43:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
I am more than a little confuzed. I fail to see the import of asking how many people god has killed mainly because the scriptures you are basing your numbers on has never been proven. The bible is taken on faith of the accuracy of what it written. Unfortunatly, people dont usualy think of what wasnt written. Seeing that the number is probably much higher. The only question I have is "So what?"
Sat Aug 26, 12:50:00 AM 2006
Jake3988 said...
'Suckers like you do deserve death.'
Ah, religious love at its highest. We don't accept your silly immorally-ridden religion so we deserve to die.
That's nothing compared to some hate mail at FSM, but that's for another day.
/Buzz off bozo.
Wed Aug 30, 07:41:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
I think my biggest concern is not God that is killing people, since he is in fact creating them just the same, but what is his so called 'plan' that we all end up with? I mean, really did he plan to kill all his creations and flood the earth and only save Noah and his family? Seriously, what about everyone else? What about each and every individual, kinda makes me think we're more than insignificant, we're meaningless to him.
Wed Sep 06, 12:26:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
It is bad enough that god takes credit for killing two million plus people in the old testament, but in the new testament he must top himself by promising to send billions of unbelievers into eternal suffering after death. What a wonderful expression of love??
Wed Sep 06, 03:11:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
we should also analyse the texts of Koran and Torah to investigate the possible body count in the major "sacred texts"... I think this would clarify that insitutionalised religions have many times killed "in the name" of god because they wrote a text that tries to give them justification for doing so. A God that kills people and judges them is oretty much the most Ungodly thing there is.... thanks for such an interesting post!
Wed Sep 13, 11:13:00 AM 2006
Shikkarasu said...
Dear regigios nut with the long "burn in the realm of nothingess forever" rant,
Exodus 23
23:24 Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images.
23:32 Thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor with their gods.
You're covenanting with us...I'll see you in hell brother^^.
"unless you get out of that shallow paradox you think you're so smart in"
If you have read the bible you will find more paradoxes there then here.
"All Satan did was feed you many lies and prove you are an obvious sucker that has bought into this shallow thinking. Lies and people kill people, not God, not guns."
Religious nuts and politicians lie not Satan.
Thu Sep 14, 03:18:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
God blows -,-
Fri Sep 15, 09:07:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Looks like "smoting kills"
Sun Sep 17, 05:02:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
What kind of super hero would God be if he couldn't bust a few chops now and then.
As Horkios, Zeus was the keeper of oaths. Liars who were exposed were made to dedicate a statue to him.
What sort of punishment is that??
Sun Sep 17, 06:54:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
"You will rightfully burn in the realm of nothingess forever when you die you silly fool; unless you get out of that shallow paradox you think you're so smart in and start believing in the One and Only God that created you and gave you a choice to acceot It or deny It in the fist place. And if you deny It, you will be destroyed by your own making. All Satan did was feed you many lies and prove you are an obvious sucker that has bought into this shallow thinking. Lies and people kill people, not God, not guns. Suckers like you do deserve death. But you can also save yourself by believing in Who Jesus said He was. I feel sorry for your shallow, tainted brain."
Next time the pope wants to quote somebody about the brutality of Islam, he should take a look at this moron in his theological backyard. It's comforting to be able to accept things like the Bible or Hesiod's Theogeny on faith, since it removes all responsibility from the individual. To think for one's self, however, is much more difficult. A tyrant God is no God at all.
Tue Oct 03, 11:39:00 PM 2006
TripleJ said...
Well it sure is a pity this God has stopped killing people as this little wee world is definitely getting overcrowded! :^)
Tue Oct 10, 06:38:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Quoting "You will rightfully burn in the realm o..."
Did u know that u are just a "laboratory rat" for god :)? Did u know that god sent us to the earth just to suffer and laugh at satan? Look u fagget, Adam and Eve rebelled against Jehovah. They said: " We do not need Jehovah as our Ruler. We can decide for ourselves what is right and what is wrong". So instead of blow those faggets out of the earth, the moron
Sat Oct 21, 08:13:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
allowed satan to show how he would rule mankind (We all knew he would fail). God also allowed humans to govern themselves under Satan's guidance. And god is so sick, that he's taking so long because he LOVES to see his rats suffering, so shut the fúck up and look who ur real "father" is u douchebag
Sat Oct 21, 08:13:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
God is the one who lit the "candles of life" within every person born on this planet. As the creator, he has rightful authority over that which he creates. Due to the way life was created, God personally allows for the death of every living thing, including us. Like it or not, he who lights the candles gets to blow them out, in any way he sees fit. Murder, car crashes, old age, disease, etc, etc. I wrote a song one time that sucked. I threw it in the garbage. Do I not have that right? Can the clay say to the potter, why are you destroying me? I think not. He gave us all the gift of life, and he can take it away.
Wed Oct 25, 02:50:00 PM 2006
Tom said...
Bryan Parker said...
"God however, is exempt from all human laws. God is neither subject to even the laws of Physics, nor Time itself.
He is Omnipotent...yadda yadda"
That's quite paradoxical. As a human, our entire concept of cause and effect presuppose a time frame in which any given event takes place. Think about it...for you to claim that something 'caused' or 'created' something else, you have to have accepted the premise that the cause came before the effect.
So, in order for your Creator to live up to his name, time must have existed. Humans simply cannot fathom a "beginning of time", because the term 'beginning' implied that there was time BEFORE that event, in which that certain event never took place. Again, causation presupposes both existence and time. Either god is subject to the the contraints of time and therefore is not omnipotent or he does not exist at all.
Thu Oct 26, 02:33:00 PM 2006
Mihai Daniel said...
You make two mistakes. First, you are ommitting the The New Testament's message that God has sacrified Himself for us. Then, you are judging God as if He were a mere human being.
Thu Nov 02, 04:05:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Religious wars are naught but,"hmm lets see who has the best imaginary friend..." Fucking retards...btw the reason humanity exists is this..."To fight and die is why we're born." Suck on that. May Tyr guide you in battle. Vahalla can wait,Im going to war. -BloodyChuckles
Tue Nov 07, 01:50:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
how many people were born as a result of G!d
Thu Nov 09, 06:29:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
Good job counting the people who died in that book, I wonder how many other people in history have tried that over the years. Its a pitty it never be possible to count the people who died as a result of that book. We could have put a shrine or somthing to the damage its caused like they do for the world wars and car accidents.
As for all this talk about is it ok for a god to kill what he created the answer is simple. There is no god, there is no intelegent design, nothing is planned out to kill you at that exact moment of your death. Ultimatly, shit happens.
Tue Nov 14, 01:22:00 AM 2006
Paul said...
I am 33 and have just read the bible from cover to cover for the first time (took me about three weeks). When I was a kid I had to go to go to Sunday school for a few years and had bible study back then I found it all a bit dull (I think I was only told to read the new testament). I am not really a religious man but I read it in the spirit of trying to understand something that a lot of other people hold as being important to them and thereby improving my understanding of other people. On this re-visit to the bible however I found it compelling reading.
I was shocked at how violent the old testament is and how sadistic and thoroughly unpleasant it would seem that god is (if he / she exists)! I couldn't really find anything in there would make me think god was nice or admirable. From the old testament. The only thing I really got (apart from interesting look into history) was that god is very scary, moody and violent. So after reading the bible the obvious question for me was "so how many deaths".
So I thank you for the information. I will probably read more of the site it's very interesting.
Regards
Paul
Thu Nov 30, 02:49:00 AM 2006
rubadubras said...
"Anonymous said...
You will rightfully burn in the realm of nothingess forever when you die you silly fool..."
How exactly can you 'burn' in a realm of NOTHINGness? That's just silly... fool.
Sun Dec 03, 10:04:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Have fun in Hell.
Tue Dec 05, 08:49:00 AM 2006
Caleb said...
---------
That's quite paradoxical. As a human, our entire concept of cause and effect presuppose a time frame in which any given event takes place. Think about it...for you to claim that something 'caused' or 'created' something else, you have to have accepted the premise that the cause came before the effect.
So, in order for your Creator to live up to his name, time must have existed. Humans simply cannot fathom a "beginning of time", because the term 'beginning' implied that there was time BEFORE that event, in which that certain event never took place. Again, causation presupposes both existence and time. Either god is subject to the the contraints of time and therefore is not omnipotent or he does not exist at all.
Thu Oct 26, 02:33:00 PM 2006
-------
http://christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c039.html
Read the whole thing please, I hope it makes sense (btw I used to be like you)
Sat Dec 09, 05:23:00 PM 2006
Anonymous said...
Great work here Wells. I'm writing a paper on theology, and started counting God's kills in the Bible in order to point out some necessary conditions in defining an "omnibenevolent" God from Biblical exegesis; after finding one or two I remembered, I found your site. Thanks so much for your help.
Mon Dec 11, 04:27:00 AM 2006
Anonymous said...
First of all, we must respect other points of view, talkig about the religion tends to be very polemic,
to say the truth, I do not believe in any god (Yavee specilly), so i cannot apply the subjectivity to say, "god is the creator, so he can do as he please" we must understand that the bible was written by a small civilization, only willing to worship its own god, the mentality of these ancient civilizations was very hostile and stubborn, so, please answer these question, If God helped his crowd (Israel) by destroying others civilizations to the ashes so they could win power and lands, and now a days it seems the same way (the cruel battles that have had israel against palestina, libano, etc) (why didn´t he protect the jews in world war II........) Why did God make the most stupid, ridiculous and bloody things to "raise" the jews as the most powerful race in the world, and why the hell he does not help the people whom really need help (In africa, In India, In Latin America, In china), why he lets the robber, the assesin, the corrupt, raise higher, and why he did punish people who had flow of semen, virgins that did not show her cothes with the blood of her first relation, cruelty to blasphemy, prophecy and destruction, etc...???
Even jesuschrist was jew, and he was proud of it, he did not want to spread the "word" to another people, only jews, (women of cananea), i admit he was a wise guy, but he´s that smart to consider him the absolut truth, the bible is what it is today becouse of a smart move that was made in roma between the III an IV century, during the reign of constantin, blame the jews for the death of jesus and make the romans the innocents guys and the chosen ones to spread the "truth"....but please, only as a request, do not read these polemic comments with a closed mind, try to see them with all the objectivity possible..... thanks.......
Sat Dec 16, 01:25:00 AM 2006
Lithgo said...
Your quote at the top should read:
See now that I, eve I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
Talks about how God is like THE God, over everything - death and life. In the Old Testament He deals out both.
But killing isnt murder, and when God does something there is a reason.
In recent news Saddam Hussein was killed for what he'd done, and even many who are against the death penalty were for
his death. Certainly I'm against the death penalty, but I note that here its God carrying it out and not a human, its an
all-knowing judge who is never wrong.
so...
1.
Lots wife had just been liberated, rather than assasinated.
She was warned not to look back. What she was looking back on was, I think, a sight humans cant take in, a bit supernatural.
She turned into salt.
2.
What do we know about this guy? He was wicked in the sight of the Lord. So what did he do?
We dont know. Could've committed attrocities I can't even think of.
3.
Thats a fair point, but I would argue that you need to take into account the context.
For me reading that the first time it just looks like the main topic is the sperm.
But in context:
Children, specifically descendants, were of huge cultural importance at this time.
When the husband died, it was his brothers responsibility culturally to insure that his
family line continued and he did have offspring. Now to me thats offensive, but this is
a completely different millenia, a totally different culture here.
Its my understanding that in this kind of society where your industries are agriculture
and war, wives didnt have much else to tie their dreams to apart from descendants and
family (unless you get a slightly butch wife into the war fighting and the shepharding and that).
Its my understanding from context that Omans act of withdrawing his sperm was out of
absolute hatred and loathing for his brother.
4.
That is a pretty powerful example.
From a spiritual point of view they have been liberated out of Egypt by miracles like the parting
of the red sea, and the very acts that brought about that liberation from 440 years of slavery.
They are only alive because God protects them from their enemies. They are only alive because
God gives them food (manna) to survive. Thats them from a spiritual point of view - dependant on God.
Now they've tried to cut off God - which is to cut off their entire food supply, cut off their protection, and
to throw their fledgling nation back into captivity. Often times we think well if God exists why doesn't
He show us a massive finger from heaven pointing at us and saying yes I exist. Well these guys practically
got that.
5.
First off, you dont lark around at the Lord's altar.
Secondly, if you have a high position and are a member of the priesthood you don't teach others to do it either.
6.
There has to be a respect of God as God. Now this person will have literally seen incontrovertible evidence
that God is real and has saved him from death in slavery under the egyptians, and he still blasphemes.
7.
One of the first things in their law was to observe the sabbath. He broke that chief law, deliberately because he
'defiantly...despised the Lord's word'
If he did it unintentionally, the priest would have interceded for him.
8.
They tried to take over God's country and take down His prophet, steal it all for themself - God moved back against them.
9.
ditto.
for berevity gonna go over the more dramatic sounding ones, but happy to go over any that are missed out...
"Middianite Massacre" -
See numbers 25:1-5 and numbers 25:17-18 for the context here.
The virgins had nothing to do with the events of Baal of Peor.
"Samsons act of terrorism"
These people were bent on destroying God's people. God doesn't just let them do that.
That applies for a swathe of the examples given.
"Davids census"
David seemed to lapse in trusting God at this point and wanted to trust in his census of his countrys fighting ability.
He had been forbidden from taking a census - God said not to do it. He did it anyway. And the people in question,
even though God told them not to, signed it anyway. In this sense they abandoned God and followed their own way
of confronting their enemies. The whole thing was a tragedy and reminds them that lead to lead properly, for their
actions carry consequences.
"gang of children making fool of elisha"
The translations I use describe a gang of youths. If I had a gang of youths coming up to me and jeering at me I
would feel somewhat intimidated. I think its naive to think they didn't mean to attack him.
God had by Himself used Elisha to restore water and heal people in the area already, and hes attacked.
"the Lord smote the ethiopians"
My brief reading indicates this was a great big army trying to destroy Israel, and Israel asked for help.
God helped them, and they won the battle.
"Herod died"
Through his speech, Herod set himself up as a god, and set himself up against God, but he shouldnt have because
he can't fight god. He did this even though in his own land God had revealed himself by sending Jesus to die.
If you wanna get the message of the Bible then please don't miss out the gospels.
There is a juxtaposition in the bible of God the righteous judge and God who loves us.
When you talk about nations and laws and all that you see the judge side of it. Its only when you look at the peoples
individual relationship (eg Psalms, Moses, epistles, gospels) that you see the love side. For me the gospels explain
much of the bible, the centre stuff that we don't demand an answer from God about but that God demands an answer from
us about.
Mon Jan 01, 05:08:00 PM 2007
Ian Osmond said...
That's quite paradoxical. As a human, our entire concept of cause and effect presuppose a time frame in which any given event takes place. Think about it...for you to claim that something 'caused' or 'created' something else, you have to have accepted the premise that the cause came before the effect.
So, in order for your Creator to live up to his name, time must have existed. Humans simply cannot fathom a "beginning of time", because the term 'beginning' implied that there was time BEFORE that event, in which that certain event never took place. Again, causation presupposes both existence and time. Either god is subject to the the contraints of time and therefore is not omnipotent or he does not exist at all.
This, interestingly, was one of the paradoxes that Rabbi Akiva attempted to deal with in the Around Year Zero era. He and three other rabbis attempted to make some way of using Greek philosophy, and the ideas of testable science, and see if they couldn't make some kind of synthesis between the Jewish faith-based beliefs and the rational Greek philosophy of the larger Greco-Roman culture.
According to tradition, Rabbi Meir backed out of the project early, Rabbi Elisha ben Abuyah lost his faith and gave up on Judaism, and Rabbi Yochanon (I think, I forget exactly who the third was) went crazy and died. And only Rabbi Akiva managed to find a way that he felt comfortable with.
Now, for me, I think of it this way: if we think of time as a fourth spacial dimension, which, y'know, we CAN, we can imagine God to be OUTSIDE of the fourspace of our universe, looking in on it. God can therefore see the entire timeline of the universe from begining to end.
So, does this mean that we cannot have free will, that everything is predestined? Well, that is one theological position -- some Calvanists worked on this assumption. And I've encountered physicists who, more or less, believe something similar: that the entire four-space of our universe exists, and therefore we have already, in a sense, done everything we are going to do, and that the illusion of free will is simply based on the fact that our perceptions of reality are moving directionally through the four-space of the universe.
And that means that we have no free will.
Me, I look at it a little differently.
For the sake of argument, I'm going to try to have it both ways. I'm going to assume that this four-space model of the universe is more-or-less correct, and yet I'm ALSO going to assume that, in some sense or other, we have free will. And see if I can't come up with SOME way of combining those two ideas that I can sort of squish my brain around.
I'm a human being, and that means, according to this model, that I can percieve, from moment to moment, only that infetesimally thin slice of the fourspace that is the "present" at any moment. That moment that I can perceive progresses forward through the "time" axis of the universe at one second per second (um, barring relatavistic effects? I really can't wrap my brain around the math for this one. But, in any case, it's probably close enough to work.)
Now, I cannot perceive any moment ahead or behind me. However, because of memory and records, I can, in a sense, have some kind of imperfect simulation of perception of the moments behind me.
So, let's say that I'm reading a history book, and it says that, say, Alexander the Great did not go on to attempt to conquer India. Or, let's say that I'm remembering my day, and I remember that I brushed my top teeth before I brushed my bottom teeth this morning.
If we accept a common definition of free will, we can state that Alexander COULD have chosen to attempt to invade India, or that I COULD have chosen to brush my bottom teeth before my top teeth.
Yet he didn't, and I didn't.
Does the fact that we DIDN'T make those choices mean that we COULDN'T have made those choices?
Well, that's the $64,000 question, isn't it? I feel that it does NOT mean that. We COULD HAVE chosen differently, we simply DIDN'T.
And therefore, the fact that our actions are locked in the past does NOT mean that we did NOT have free will.
Now, if that logic holds true for the past, then it would hold true for the future, as well. We have free will, and we will freely choose all the choices of our life.
Yet we could imagine a God who existed outside of this timeline, who could perceive the entire timeline at once.
And I believe that there is not an inherent contradition between those ideas -- that we exist in a timeline in which things have happened, are happening, and will happen, and that we make choices in the "are happening" stage which affect the "will happen" stage, and that we make those choices freely -- yet something could exist OUTSIDE that timeline which could perceive that timeline.
It makes my brain hurt to think about it, and I don't expect the argument to convince everyone, but that's my way of reconciling the paradox of "free will" vs "omniscience".
Sun Jan 07, 08:51:00 PM 2007
alienbinary said...
I think the important question is whether or not we should count all the armies that have pledged "for god and country" and their confirmed kill count as well. If we accept that religious fanatacism as chronicled in the Bible is the core cause of most of these tallies, then the kill count must be higher. - alienbinary
Wed Jan 10, 10:54:00 AM 2007
Gareth said...
Hmmm...
So God kills 2.27 million people (including women and children) and yet is still loved by many.
Hitler comes along and kills 6 million people (including women and children), and is remembered as an evil man.
Is there a numerical limit on the number of people (including women and children) you can kill before you flip from being a good person to a bad one?
Fri Jan 12, 03:00:00 AM 2007
Anonymous said...
I think its amazing people believe in this nonsense and take it so seriously.
Maybe in a few thousand years they'll realize its all a load of hooey... just like Mt Olympus. Jeeze; the human race as one shallow learning curve.
Tue Jan 16, 03:53:00 PM 2007
Anonymous said...
this is in the bible, i wonder, throughout history, how many has the abrahamic god killed in real life?
Tue Jan 23, 12:18:00 PM 2007
TerrorBite said...
[What if God played video games?]
Congratulations. You have made a new high score:
2,270,369 points
Please enter your initials:
G O D_
Thu Jan 25, 12:44:00 AM 2007
Anonymous said...
FEORI
Sat Jan 27, 06:44:00 PM 2007
Anonymous said...
Interesting that those lives being killed by satan's influence via alcohol/drug use, murders, and suicides to name a few are not mentioned or even our main concern. God have mercy on us all, that we not be one of those satan decides to use in the near future.
Tue Jan 30, 06:24:00 PM 2007
Anonymous said...
God's existence is proven by the very fact that people want to try to disprove his existence. Deep down everyone knows God exists, but they want to sin and not feel guilty about it, so they try to convince themselves that God doesn’t really exist and that they won’t be punished for their sins. This is why people get in such heated debates about whether or nor God exists, because they cannot fully convince themselves and they want others to agree with them so they won't feel as guilty. If God didn’t exist, then people wouldn’t care so much when the subject was brought up.
John 3:19-20 “The light from heaven came into the world, but they loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. They hate the light because they want to sin in the darkness. They stay away from the light for fear their sins will be exposed and they will be punished.”
This is what Jesus is saying in these verses. Despite the undeserved kindness and love he has shown mankind, people will still hate him because they want to sin without feeling guilty about it, which is why they crucified him.
John 7:7 “The world hates me because I accuse it of sin and evil.”
Don’t think that I am a hypocrite though, I know I have sinned. I was addicted to pornography/masturbation for about 10 years (and I’m only 20 now), but I admit that I am a sinner and that I needed Jesus to save me, and now I am no longer addicted pornography/masturbation. Sure, I still sin, but no where near as much as I did before.
As to God killing people, can you honestly tell me that you loved those people more than he did? No, you can’t, you’re just looking for another way to convince yourself that God doesn’t exist so you can feel less guilty about your sins. God alone is righteous, and though you can’t always understand why he does something, he has never sinned. God doesn’t send people to hell, you send yourself there. God has offered the free gift of salvation to everyone, you have no right to blame him because you refused the free gift he wanted to give you.
I recommend checking out GotQuestions.org if you are interested in God’s gift of salvation, or even if you already have accepted his gift.
Thu Feb 01, 12:29:00 AM 2007
Garet Pahl said...
It was GOD who killed Jesus.
10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering,he will see his offspring and prolong his days,and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
11 After the suffering of his soul, will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors.For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. -Isaiah 53
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
To anyone out there who thinks love spells don't work, I’m here to tell you that Lord Zakuza love spell is the best and most powerful. I am a wealthy man who has lots of assets and possessions but I have difficulty with women. Whenever I try to settle down with any, we end up breaking up and I had no idea of why I was going through such an experience in my relationship. It was so worrying that I couldn’t be myself anymore and I started searching for help everywhere even at my place of work. I was going through my work activities online and I came across a testimony of a lady called ( Febe Anouk ) regarding how Lord Zakuza helped her to restore her relationship with his love spell, I had to give it a try and I visited Lord Zakuza and I told him everything I was going through. Lord Zakuza consoled and promised to help me out with my situation by preparing a love spell for me. I followed the instructions given by him to me and within 48 hours, my Ex lover came looking for me and pleaded for forgiveness. Since I came in contact with Lord Zakuza, things have changed for good in my life and right now, I am married with two beautiful kids and my home is blessed. All thanks to Lord Zakuza I am forever thankful to you. WhatsApp him on +1 740-573-9483. Try him and your life will be blessed.
ReplyDeleteGood day to you all.. I'm here to share my experience to everybody all around the world because I know that someone out there needs this today. I've been with my girlfriend for 3 years and everything was fine with us that we don't have to fight or quarrel for anything. My girlfriend got a new job and after 2 months of her new job, I noticed some changes in her. Few weeks before my birthday, my girlfriend broke up with me for another man. I never expected such from her. I was in severe pain and needed help urgently. I searched for help online and found Lord Zakuza who is a spell caster. I told him everything I was going through and he understood me well. He told me that he will prepare a love spell for me that will get my girlfriend back within 48 hours and he explained to me how it was going to be done and I agreed. He prepared the love spell for me and my girlfriend returned back to me begging me for forgiveness within 48 hours. I was shocked and happy and I accepted her back.. We are back together and everything is going fine. I want to thank Lord Zakuza for his help by sharing this testimony online for other people to find help too in any area of their lives. Get in touch with him with the below details. For he's good at what he does.
ReplyDeleteWhatsApp/Call/Text +1 (740) 573-9483.
Email: Lordzakuza7@gmail.com
My husband divorced me and went after his ex and left me heart broken for 2 years. I have been playing the lottery for some years before I got married and I have never won any big amount. I continued to play the lottery but I couldn't win more than $500 dollars until I was introduced to Dr Amber that is a strong Haiti spell caster. I had a chat with him via +18084815132 telling him what a mess my life has become. He encouraged and promised to get my man back for me and to help me win the lottery. There were specific instructions that was passed to me by him which I adhered to as he prepared the spell for me that brought back my husband within 36 hours and he gave me some sure numbers to play the lottery game. I used the numbers to play the lottery and I was declared the winner of Ten Million Dollars and all this happened within a week after I knew Dr Amber. It doesn't matter what you are going through in life Dr Amber is here to help. You can visit his website: amberlottotemple.com or E-mail: { amberlottotemple@yahoo.com }.
ReplyDeleteBelieve it or not Dr Amber has come to stay to do wonders with his spells. I overheard my co-worker telling his cousin how Dr Amber helped him get back his partner within 24 hours . I was amazed about what he said. I searched for this man called Dr Amber online and guess what... He had so many good reviews online about his work. I got in contact with him to win the lottery and he assured me that winning the lottery is not a problem but what do I intend doing with the winnings. I told him what I will do when I become a winner. Dr Amber prepared a spell and prayed for me for 3 days before he told me where to play the Lottery. I did as he instructed me with a positive mindset. To my greatest shock, I was announced the winner of $1,000 dollars everyday for life which is equivalent to a cash prize of $7,000,000 million dollars.. I have no words to thank Dr Amber but to share your good works to everyone that needs help. Visit: amberlottotemple.com or Email: amberlottotemple@yahoo.com
ReplyDeleteKnowing Dr Amber has been a blessing to me. His spells are incredible with no side effects. I suffered from brain cancer for years with a lot of bills piled up on my neck. I play the lottery hoping that someday I will win big to clear up my debts, live the good life that I've always dreamt of. I was referred to Dr Amber by a friend of mine in South Africa telling me that he can help me win the lottery. I had a chat with Dr Amber about winning the lottery and he was so confident about his work that made me believe in him knowing fully well that he has been helpful to other people. He did a reading for me that made it clear to him that I was going to become a winner after he had prepared the spell for me. He told me the exact ticket to pick and I was declared the winner of ONE MILLION DOLLARS at the "Double Your Money” instant lottery game. I don't know what you seek for but Dr Amber can help you. To Call/WhatsApp him, go to ( amberlottotemple.com ) OR email: amberlottotemple@yahoo.com
ReplyDeleteI've always dreamt of winning BIG in the lottery. I surfed the internet for help to win the lottery massively and I was directed to the DR Amber website. I had a chat with him about what I needed and he assured me that his spell will make me become a lottery winner. He got back to me after 3 days with the numbers that I needed to play the lottery and told me to believe in myself. I felt enveloped by the control of the spell. I took his words and played the Mega Millions Lottery. Two days later, I was sent an email that I've won the sum of 107 Million Dollars. I was shocked and couldn't believe what my eyes were seeing. Immediately I was given the cash prize, I stopped working. I want to say a very big thank you to DR Amber for helping people like us who really need help. Now I know that there's absolutely nothing too hard for DR Amber to do. To get in touch with him, email : [ amberlottotemple@yahoo.com ] or click his webpage URL___ amberlottotemple.com
ReplyDeleteA great saddles for sale ontario will be functional as well as attractive. It should fit both the horse and the rider comfortably, and be strong enough to withstand the pressures of roping. While practicality is still the most important factor when choosing a roping saddle, fancy versions are becoming increasingly popular at ropings. Most saddle companies offer these fanciful options and some even offer limited editions.
ReplyDeleteA great used western saddles for sale will be functional as well as attractive. It should fit both the horse and the rider comfortably, and be strong enough to withstand the pressures of roping. While practicality is still the most important factor when choosing a roping saddle, fancy versions are becoming increasingly popular at ropings. Most saddle companies offer these fanciful options and some even offer limited editions.
ReplyDeleteIt’s a privilege to share this to the world. You deserve all the praise that comes to you. DR Amber has been a blessing to me since our encounter on the internet. He alone knows it all. I love him so much for his kindness, care, honesty and his help in the life of everyone that has come in contact with him. If not for DR Amber how would I have been able to survive this hardship. His spell made me a LOTTO MAX winner of 60 Million Dollars making my whole life beautiful and amazing. The numbers he gave me to play the lottery was a life changing number from grass to grace and I want to say I’m forever grateful to him. Thank you sir for being a blessing to the helpless. Anyone reading this that needs help can communicate with DR Amber online for indeed he has no match.
ReplyDeleteWebsite: amberlottotemple.com
Email: amberlottotemple@yahoo.com