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Dwindling In Unbelief
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30 March 2010Jesus
You’ve heard this one before: God killed his son in order to stop himself from torturing people forever after they die for something that someone else supposedly did thousands of years before they were born.
The story is known too well already. So I'm not going to waste any time on it here. There are only two things that you need to know.
1. God killed his own son.
He ... spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all. Romans 8:32
2. He had the whole thing planned from the very beginning.
Ye were not redeemed with corruptible things ... But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world. 1 Peter 1:18-20
It's hard to imagine something worse than a father planning to kill his own son. Except maybe a father killing his son in order to keep himself from torturing billions of others forever.
"He that spared not his own son" shouldn't be trusted by anyone.
Posted by Steve Wells at 3/30/2010 10:20:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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31 comments:
Dan said...
I don't think you can count this one because technically it was a suicide. On the other hand, it wasn't even a killing at all since it was only temporary. Which doesn't make any sense, but that fits the main theme like a glove.
Tue Mar 30, 12:36:00 PM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
It really is indescribable as to why God would do such a thin; perhaps this link, while not providing a "spiritual" explanation, will certainly shed light on a more down-to-earth origin story for the Church: http://jesuspuzzle.humanists.net/home.htm ;-)
Tue Mar 30, 01:34:00 PM 2010
skanksta said...
You're all taking this nonsense too seriously !
I'm going to write to The Queen, nominating Steve for an honorary membership of the Knights of the Garter, for services to logic - the highest honour she can award a foreigner !
Let's hope she's listening.
Tue Mar 30, 02:06:00 PM 2010
David said...
Well, it would be a terrible thing to kill your own son, if it were not for the fact that you'd know fully well that your son is going to be hanging out with you in heaven after he gets killed. I mean, isn't that the point of religion? To convince people that death isn't so bad, since you've got eternity to look forward to?
Tue Mar 30, 03:09:00 PM 2010
Brucker said...
Dan, even though it might be deemed a suicide, (and either way, Jesus went to the cross willingly) theologically, Jesus was God, so it still counts.
Whatever your theological stripe, I think this is not just a death that can be pinned on God's record, but the most important one of all.
Steve, I would argue that the death of Jesus is also one like the death of Job's children that can be credited to both God and Satan. Jesus dies because of Satan's actions in Genesis 3.
Tue Mar 30, 03:28:00 PM 2010
Leor said...
It may sound crazy, but I think that now, after you have finished documenting God's killings in the Bible,you should start documenting the divine murders in the Book Of Mormon.
It looks pretty fun.
Wed Mar 31, 06:26:00 AM 2010
Nick said...
The Jesus death thing has always confused me, that Jesus was actually god and he died on the cross and raised himself from the dead and that this sacrifice saved us all from our sins.
Exactly where is the sacrifice in this? He was on the cross for about six hours before he died and then he missed out on three days of life, what a sacrifice, I can see how this would pay for eternity in hell for every person in the world for all time. I wonder how the old testament god would have felt if the people used inflatable sheep for their sacrifice, then just repaired the puncture and reinflated it for the next time.
Wed Mar 31, 07:00:00 AM 2010
sattvicwarrior said...
god killing his own son?? no big deal . he wipes out thousands at a whim in assorted biblical passages..
Then .. look at his representatives [ the church] .. and lets not forget the INQUSITION who killed thousands more [ some even for saying the world was round].
sounds more like I would have fun dressing a barbi doll ...
Wed Mar 31, 10:51:00 PM 2010
Fernando said...
I always asked myself why god could not forgive mankind without making his son to had his ass kicked, and die slowly in a cross.
Maybe the guys wanted to see some action, some blood ?
Fri Apr 02, 06:50:00 AM 2010
sattvicwarrior said...
how does one forgive ignorance ?? or HATE, and cruelty of actions toward others??. those are all personal deamons on the battlefield of ones own mind ,ones "god" has nothing to do with that, but the poor dude ALWAYS gets the blame. The EGO is great for passing the buck so to speak. [ which has nothing to do with god consciousness by the way] and what better icon for the ignorant mind than something you cant see or even experience in the duality of ones own thinking process. [ something the creator is without because of its own omnipotent state] Yet tell that to the sycophant that's locked in archaic dogma [ church doctrine] whose only true footprint in the history of spiritual ideology is nothing more than a trek through a cesspool of mediocrity… I prefer to eat “peeps and chocolate bunnies on Easter. After all god DID give us sugar. Thats what life is all about. CHOICES, not endless torture and hate brought to an incandescent state by the church..
Sun Apr 04, 05:46:00 PM 2010
Person0123452 said...
From bruckers link:
"I think omnipotence, while still being omnipotence, is actually limited by logic. I believe there are certain things that are a part of the world that are that way simply because having them not be that way would be absurd."
Wut?
I think that if the author actually understood the concepts of omnipotence and logic, I may be more inclined to accept his opinion on omnipotence and logic.
Also, god had it planned before satan did that (before the foundation of the world) so really I think he was just looking for an excuse to blame it on satan.
Wed Apr 07, 06:32:00 AM 2010
Brucker said...
Person0123452, What is the issue that you have with the statement? I am strongly of the belief that (so-called) omnipotence must be limited by certain logical boundaries. For instance, if God is not limited by logic, then He is able to make Himself not exist. This seems silly.
Basically, if one allows for a God that is not limited by logic, then discussions of the nature of such a deity no longer have meaning. In the context of this discussion, for instance, we could say that God could have made Jesus die not for any reason, but just because, since God doesn't need to rely on logic and meaning. Was it unjust or cruel that Jesus had to die? No, because God made it right by His omnipotence. See, arguments no longer have meaning if God has no logic, so I choose to believe that God has logic so that the discussion can continue.
Wed Apr 07, 09:52:00 AM 2010
Person0123452 said...
Noun
omnipotence (uncountable)
1. Unlimited power
That is the issue I take with saying that "god's omnipotence is limited".
Plus, if he was limited by logic he would not be that special. The entire point of gods power is that it doesn't matter if it would be "absurd". God can do what he wants according to the bible. If he was limited by logic he would not be "all-powerful" he would merely be "quite powerful".
Wed Apr 07, 12:07:00 PM 2010
Brucker said...
Okay, then God says you're wrong. God's not responsible for any killings, because He, using His omnipotent powers, made it so. Discussion over. Wasn't that fun?
Wed Apr 07, 12:38:00 PM 2010
Person0123452 said...
That's written in the bible is it brucker?
Thu Apr 08, 11:30:00 AM 2010
Brucker said...
That's the beauty of it. I don't even have to look it up, because it doesn't matter whether it's written or not. God, using His omnipotent powers, can simply reveal it to me.
Thu Apr 08, 12:44:00 PM 2010
Person0123452 said...
Just like he told bush to go to war right?
Unfortunately for your theory, I don't simply believe stuff without having some evidence to back it up. Part of why I'm not theistic. So even if god were omnipotent, and the bible was true, just because you say he told you doesn't mean it's true. Nowhere in the bible (which for the purposes of this we are assuming is true) does god deny the killings listed, in fact he seems to take much pride in most of them. Steve is counting the killings that are specifically attributed to god.
Also, I agree it makes no sense. I'm an atheist. I think the bible is a load of rubbish. All you're doing by pointing out how stupid it is is simply confirming my belief to me.
Thu Apr 08, 03:53:00 PM 2010
skanksta said...
Gotta love Brucker, lol - good to have you back fella !
Thu Apr 08, 04:11:00 PM 2010
Brucker said...
According to you, He didn't tell Bush to go to war, He made him go to war, since He's all powerful, but I don't know what this has to do with anything, since our debate is over. If you're an atheist, I'm sure God just made you that way.
Thu Apr 08, 06:09:00 PM 2010
Person0123452 said...
You realise that even if I did believe god is omnipotent I don't have to believe he permanently uses his omnipotence right? In actuality he had nothing to do with bush's war, but if he had told bush to go to war, he would have told him, not made him.
Though this is completely outside the point, since the word omnipotence means unlimited power, so saying his omnipotence is limited is ridiculous.
True omnipotence is full of logical contradictions. I personally believe they can be resolved but we don't know everything about certain things, and so are unable to come to logical conclusions about them. Certain things may seem logical to people, but aren't in reality. Questions like "if he's omnipotent couldn't he create a rock that he wouldn't be able to lift?" Whilst we can't come up with something we view as a logical answer, I believe that is because we don't know everything about the nature of the universe.
I would however like you to explain how you can try to resolve logical contradictions and believe in the bible. The bible is full of them.
Fri Apr 09, 08:32:00 AM 2010
Brucker said...
>>>Though this is completely outside the point, since the word omnipotence means unlimited power, so saying his omnipotence is limited is ridiculous.<<<
Actually, I'm saying that I've never liked the word "omnipotence" since it implies ridiculousness. Luckily, the word is not to be found anywhere in the Bible, so in being a believer of the Bible, I don't have to accept the argument on your terms. (As a free-thinking individual, I don't even have to accept the argument on the Bible's terms, but that's a whole other can of worms.)
>>>I would however like you to explain how you can try to resolve logical contradictions and believe in the bible. The bible is full of them.<<<
As Steve Wells has often said, dealing with supposed logical contradictions is in many ways the easiest part of an apologist's job. Furthermore, it's been my experience that the average person who says "The Bible is full of [contradictions]" has no idea what they're talking about, and has pretty much never even looked at the Bible. (I find Wells refreshing for at least knowing what he's talking about, despite not agreeing with him.)
Tell me, do you know a "contradiction" in the Bible off the top of your head; or better yet, tell me which of the myriad of "contradictions" present therein personally makes it hard for you to accept the Bible? I'd really like to know.
Fri Apr 09, 07:32:00 PM 2010
sattvicwarrior said...
Bruker you say…
? I am strongly of the belief that (so-called) omnipotence must be limited by certain logical boundaries. For instance, if God is not limited by logic, then He is able to make Himself not exist. This seems silly.
.. I say.. your statement is truly silly indeed. Omnipotence cannot be limited by ANYTHING, because it IS everything . your statement is contradictory. One cannot give an identity to that which is beyond duality,and form and consciouisness, and permeates the all. it is because it IS. and can only be experienced and NOT intellectualized.
Fri Apr 09, 09:05:00 PM 2010
sattvicwarrior said...
Bruker you say.
Okay, then God says you're wrong. God's not responsible for any killings, because He, using His omnipotent powers, made it so. Discussion over. Wasn't that fun?
.. Bruker,. that wasnt fun at all your REALLY being silly.
Fri Apr 09, 09:09:00 PM 2010
sattvicwarrior said...
Bruker you say.
Actually, I'm saying that I've never liked the word "omnipotence" since it implies ridiculousness. Luckily, the word is not to be found anywhere in the Bible,
I say,.
there are a LOT of words not found in the bible. One of them is "common sense"
Fri Apr 09, 09:12:00 PM 2010
sattvicwarrior said...
Bruker you say again
Tell me, do you know a "contradiction" in the Bible off the top of your head; or better yet, tell me which of the myriad of "contradictions" present therein personally makes it hard for you to accept the Bible? I'd really like to know.
I say
1. God is satisfied with his works
Gen 1:31
God is dissatisfied with his works.
2. God dwells in chosen temples
God dwells not in temples
Acts 7:48
3. God dwells in light
Tim 6:16
God dwells in darkness
1 Kings 8:12/ Ps 18:11/ Ps 97:2
4. God is seen and heard
Ex 33:23/ Ex 33:11/ Gen 3:9,10/ Gen 32:30/ Is 6:1/
Ex 24:9-11
God is invisible and cannot be heard
John 1:18/ John 5:37/ Ex 33:20/ 1 Tim 6:16
5. God is tired and rests
Ex 31:17/ Jer 15:6
God is never tired and never rests
Is 40:28
6. God is everywhere present, sees and knows all things
Prov 15:3/ Ps 139:7-10/ Job 34:22,21
God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all
things
Gen 11:5/ Gen 18:20,21/ Gen 3:8
7. God knows the hearts of men
Acts 1:24/ Ps 139:2,3
God tries men to find out what is in their heart
Deut 13:3/ Deut 8:2/ Gen 22:12
8. God is all powerful
Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26
God is not all powerful
Judg 1:19
9. God is unchangeable
James 1:17/ Mal 3:6/ Ezek 24:14/ Num 23:19
God is changeable
Gen 6:6/ Jonah 3:10/ 1 Sam 2:30,31/ 2 Kings 20:1,4,5,6/
Ex 33:1,3,17,14
10 God is just and impartial
Ps 92:15/ Gen 18:25/ Deut 32:4/ Rom 2:11/ Ezek 18:25
God is unjust and partial
Gen 9:25/ Ex 20:5/ Rom 9:11-13/ Matt 13:12
11. God is the author of evil
Lam 3:38/ Jer 18:11/ Is 45:7/ Amos 3:6/ Ezek 20:25
God is not the author of evil
1 Cor 14:33/ Deut 32:4/ James 1:13
12. God gives freely to those who ask
James 1:5/ Luke 11:10
God withholds his blessings and prevents men from receiving
them
John 12:40/ Josh 11:20/ Is 63:17
13. God is to be found by those who seek him
Matt 7:8/ Prov 8:17
God is not to be found by those who seek him
Prov 1:28
14. God is warlike
Ex 15:3/ Is 51:15
God is peaceful
Rom 15:33/ 1 Cor 14:33
15. God is cruel, unmerciful, destructive, and ferocious
Jer 13:14/ Deut 7:16/ 1 Sam 15:2,3/ 1 Sam 6:19
God is kind, merciful, and good
James 5:11/ Lam 3:33/ 1 Chron 16:34/ Ezek 18:32/ Ps 145:9/
1 Tim 2:4/ 1 John 4:16/ Ps 25:8
16. God's anger is fierce and endures long
Num 32:13/ Num 25:4/ Jer 17:4
God's anger is slow and endures but for a minute
Ps 103:8/ Ps 30:5
17. God commands, approves of, and delights in burnt offerings,
sacrifices ,and holy days
Ex 29:36/ Lev 23:27/ Ex 29:18/ Lev 1:9
God disapproves of and has no pleasure in burnt offerings,
sacrifices, and holy days.
Jer 7:22/ Jer 6:20/ Ps 50:13,4/ Is 1:13,11,12
18. God accepts human sacrifices
2 Sam 21:8,9,14/ Gen 22:2/ Judg 11:30-32,34,38,39
God forbids human sacrifice
Deut 12:30,31
19. God tempts men
Gen 22:1/ 2 Sam 24:1/ Jer 20:7/ Matt 6:13
God tempts no man
James 1:13
20. God cannot lie
Heb 6:18
God lies by proxy; he sends forth lying spirits t deceive
2 Thes 2:11/ 1 Kings 22:23/ Ezek 14:9
21. Because of man's wickedness God destroys him
Gen 6:5,7
Because of man's wickedness God will not destroy him
Gen 8:21
22. God's attributes are revealed in his works.
Rom 1:20
God's attributes cannot be discoveredI think the author of this blog posted that a bazillion years ago . Pretty smart he huh?????
Fri Apr 09, 09:21:00 PM 2010
Brucker said...
>>>your statement is truly silly indeed. Omnipotence cannot be limited by ANYTHING, because it IS everything . your statement is contradictory.<<<
Which is why I don't like the term "omnipotent": it carries too much semantic baggage. And since I said "(so-called) omnipotence", with the parenthetical indicating my dislike of the term, I'm curious where you see the contradiction in what I've said.
>>>[...Long list of supposed contradictions...]<<<
Aside from the fact that I was asking Person0123452 to personally answer that question, I put it to you that you have not personally answered it either. Please reread the question.
Sat Apr 10, 01:14:00 PM 2010
Person0123452 said...
He answered it well for me. In what way was his answer wrong? You asked for a contradiction, he gave you many.
However, off the top of my head:
God supposedly knows everything, correct? Everything that has and will happen. Yet numerous times in the bible he seems unsure of certain things. For example he doesn't seem to know where Adam and eve are when they hide. He could have been playing around then, but he goes on to punish the serpent for a crime he didn't commit.
He apparently does not regret things, yet he first regretted creating mankind, so he killed them because they were evil. He then regretted killing them, and promised never to do it again, because we are evil.
Explanations please?
Also, it's not contradictions on their own that lead me to not believing the bible. They don't help it's cause, but the reason I don't believe the bible is that I have no reason to do so. Would you believe that harry potter is the divinely inspired word of god if Rowling wrote it in there?
Mon Apr 12, 07:01:00 AM 2010
Brucker said...
Ah, now we're getting somewhere. The thing is, I tend to be interested in what personally is an issue for a person with the Bible, rather than a big list of (supposed) contradictions. You've got my curiosity piqued because you've actually got an issue I've never heard before.
The reason God asks Adam and his wife where they are is the same reason that a parent asks their child, "Who knocked over the lamp?" even though they already know who did it. It's a chance for them to come clean and confess.
Now, you're going to have to explain to me what the story is with "...he goes on to punish the serpent for a crime he didn't commit." I've never heard anyone make this claim before, and I'm curious how you make this interpretation.
As for changing his mind about destroying mankind after the flood, my interpretation is here, take it or leave it.
Would I accept Harry Potter books as Holy Scripture? No, but this is a complicated question actually. Obviously, as you've pointed out, Rowling doesn't pretend that they are anything beyond a good story, but suppose she had? Well, unlike other works such as the Bible, Quran, Bhagavad Gita, etc., they doesn't really give any suggestions about how a person may live their life better. (And frankly, a book doesn't have to come from God to do that well, does it?) They also don't give much of an answer to the big questions of life: the WHY questions, not the HOW questions. There are more considerations, but that's a pretty good surface look at what sets them apart.
Mon Apr 12, 08:43:00 AM 2010
Person0123452 said...
The story goes something like this:
Serpent: Are you really not allowed to eat from any of the trees?
Eve: We can eat from any tree, except the one in the middle cause if we touch that we'll die.
Serpent: You will not surely die. If you eat it you will know the difference between right and wrong, like god.
Eve: *omnomnom* Here, Adam, try this
Adam: *omnomnom*
They then knew the difference between right and wrong.
What the serpent said was true. I have heard the argument that "well, now people die, so it was false, amirite?" though tbh I don't buy it. If you say "do this and you will die" you would expect that threat to be carried out immediately. I don't consider the threat to have been carried out.
Also, it does not say that the serpent in any pushed her to eat the fruit. He simply commented that he didn't think they would die if they did.
Though you have your opinion on what happened I guess.
Mon Apr 12, 02:25:00 PM 2010
Brucker said...
Sure, my view is more or less the standard one. I do find it strange--although interesting--that you don't see the snake as being guilty, since Gen. 3 doesn't explicitly say what the snake is supposed to be guilty of. If anything, when God says "because you have done this," the nearest thing before is Eve's claim that "The serpent beguiled me". I certainly wouldn't argue that the snake forced anybody to do anything, but he arguably tricked them.
Anyway, thanks for sharing; it was thought-provoking.
Mon Apr 12, 03:49:00 PM 2010
Srinivasan said...
To Bruckner:
Talking snakes? We are having an "intelligent" discussion about freakin' talking snakes? About whether or not this talking snake is guilty? The only guilty person is the one who believes in talking snakes. Listen to yourself dude!
Thu Apr 15, 11:16:00 PM 2010
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29 March 2010Herod was eaten by worms for not giving the God the glory
One day, King Herod (Aggripa) gave a speech to the people.
Upon a set day Herod, arrayed in royal apparel, sat upon his throne, and made an oration unto them. Acts 12:21
The Bible doesn't tell us what he said, but it must have been one hell of a good speech, since when the people heard it they all shouted at once and in unison, "this is the voice of a god, not a man."
The people gave a shout, saying, It is the voice of a god, and not of a man. 12:22
But God didn't like the speech. And he was especially angry at Herod for not giving the glory to him. God wants all of the glory and it pisses him off when someone else gets some. So he sent an angel down to kill him.
Immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory. 12:23a
And then God fed King Herod to the worms.
And he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost. 12:23b
(I give God all the glory for this Bible story.)
God's next killing: Jesus
Posted by Steve Wells at 3/29/2010 10:56:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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7 comments:
twillight said...
Welcome back Steve!
I wish a Jesus-movie would end with what is depicted here: Herod making the speech, then maggots appear all over him and he dissolves.
Would that worth an R-rate, or still remain no-rating, as it is from the Bible?
Tue Mar 30, 05:10:00 AM 2010
Robert said...
Have you given God the glory for this post?
Tue Mar 30, 05:58:00 AM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
So... first, God smites him (which should surely kill him), then sends some worms, and that's what finally kills him?
Bullshit.
Tue Mar 30, 12:55:00 PM 2010
skanksta said...
I just LOVE the language of the KJV (this is the KJV right?)
"And he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost."
Lol - gonna start using that.
Tue Mar 30, 02:00:00 PM 2010
Brucker said...
This is indeed an odd one, isn't it? Something about this one that's always seemed strange from a theological perspective is why God decided to strike down Herod for allowing people to treat him like a God when there are plenty of other dictators throughout history who did so in far more blatant ways than this. Even within a Biblical timeframe, both Caesar and Pharaoh were supposed to be gods, weren't they?
Tue Mar 30, 03:13:00 PM 2010
busterggi said...
Is this the same Herod who kept his dead wife's corpse around for seven years for sex & conversation?
Because if it is I can think of something else that might have killed him.
Tue Mar 30, 04:31:00 PM 2010
psybermonkey said...
@busterggi - heh, actually I believe that was Herod the Great, though there isn't really any convincing evidence for the claim as Josephus' text on it doesn't specifically say anything about a corpse. Herod married nine times, but the wife he loved most was Mariamme, Hyrcanus' granddaughter. Manipulated into believing that Mariamme had been unfaithful, Herod had her executed--and may have been driven mad by guilt. "So hot was the flame of his desire that he could not believe her dead," Josephus wrote, "but in his sickness of mind talked to her as if still alive, until time revealed to him the terrible truth, and filled his heart with grief as passionate as his love had been while she lived."
Also, the account in Acts on the other Herod's death is a bit different from what Josephus says (surprise-surprise!):
After Passover in 44, Agrippa [Herod] went to Caesarea, where he had games performed in honor of Claudius. In the midst of his elation Agrippa saw an owl perched over his head. During his imprisonment by Tiberius a similar omen had been interpreted as portending his speedy release, with the warning that should he behold the same sight again, he would die within five days. He was immediately smitten with violent pains, and scolded his friends for flattering him and accepting his imminent death. He experienced heart pains and a pain in his abdomen, and died after five days.
It really makes me wonder what he supposedly said to have gained such recognition! :)
Wed Mar 31, 10:47:00 PM 2010
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29 March 2010Hananiah
Whenever two prophets get together in the Bible, you can be pretty sure that one of them will soon be killed by God. Remember how God sent a lion to kill a prophet for believing another prophet’s lie? And then he sent another lion to kill another prophet for refusing to smite fellow prophet? Yeah, well, the same thing happens to here to Hananiah, sans lion.
The trouble starts when Hananiah prophesies good news for the people of Judah. God was going to break the yoke of the king of Babylon and bring the people of Judah back home.
Hananiah … the prophet … spake … in the presence of the priests and of all the people, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, saying, I have broken the yoke of the king of Babylon. Within two full years … I will bring again to this place … all the captives of Judah … for I will break the yoke of the king of Babylon. Jeremiah 28.1-4
Which contracted what Jeremiah had been telling everyone. Lately, in fact, Jeremiah was running around wearing a wooden yoke, symbolizing Nebuchadnezzar’s absolute power over Israel. So Hananiah’s good news was anathema to him.
Jeremiah replied with his usual sarcasm.
Amen: the LORD do so: the LORD perform thy words which thou hast prophesied, to bring again the vessels of the LORD's house, and all that is carried away captive, from Babylon into this place. 28.6
Then Hanaiah took Jeremiah’s silly yoke and broke it in front of everyone.
Then Hananiah the prophet took the yoke from off the prophet Jeremiah's neck, and brake it. 28.10
And he repeated his prophecy about the end of Judah’s exile within two years.
And Hananiah spake in the presence of all the people, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Even so will I break the yoke of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon from the neck of all nations within the space of two full years. 28.11
Jeremiah went away after that. But a little later God told Jeremiah to tell Hananiah that he wants everyone to serve Nebuchadnezzar, even the animals.
Go and tell Hananiah, saying, Thus saith the LORD … I have put a yoke of iron upon the neck of all these nations, that they may serve Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon; and they shall serve him: and I have given him the beasts of the field also. 28.14
Oh, yeah, and that within a year God would kill him.
Hear now, Hananiah; The LORD hath not sent thee; but thou makest this people to trust in a lie. Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will cast thee from off the face of the earth: this year thou shalt die, because thou hast taught rebellion against the LORD. 28.15-16
And, by golly, that’s what happened.
So Hananiah the prophet died the same year in the seventh month. 28.17
God's next killing: Ezekiel’s wife
Posted by Steve Wells at 3/29/2010 08:11:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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23 March 2010Ananias and Sapphira
Ananias and his wife, Sapphira, sold some land, gave some of the money to the apostles and kept the rest.
Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet. Acts 5:1-2
The bible doesn't say how much the land sold for or what percentage they kept or gave away.
But whatever the selling price may have been, the percentage of the donation wasn't enough to satisfy Peter. Or God.
But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? ... Why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. Acts 5:3-4
I don't know how Peter would know that Satan was involved in any of this. God must have told him. But what about this "lie to the Holy Ghost" thing? So far, at least as far as the text goes, Ananias hasn't said a thing. Don't your lips have to move when you lie?
Maybe not. Maybe you lie to the Holy Ghost every time you don't give all of your money to the church. (Which church? The Holy Ghost's church, of course!)
In any case, Ananias fell over dead before getting to say a single word in his own defense.
And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost. Acts 5:5
A few hours later, they bring in Sapphira, who didn't yet know what had happened to her husband.
And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in. Acts 5:7
Peter asked her if the land sold for a certain price, and she said, yes, that was what the land sold for.
And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much. Acts 5:8
Then Peter asked her why she and her husband had tempted the Spirit of the Lord. And then, before she could answer, Peter told her that the guys who had just buried her husband were going to do the same to her.
Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out. Acts 5:9
After hearing Peter's words, she fell down dead. And the "young men" came in to bury her.
Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband. Acts 5:10
And it scared the shit (and the shekels) out of everyone in the church.
And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things. Acts 5:11
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
God's next killing: Herod Aggripa
Posted by Steve Wells at 3/23/2010 10:18:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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29 comments:
Dan said...
If it happened to just one person, it is possible that they just had a heart attack and dropped dead from fright. But both of them? I say god did the murdering deed.
Tue Mar 23, 11:05:00 AM 2010
Leor said...
"...thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God...How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord?" (v.4-9)
Peter keeps talking about lying to God and disobeying him, so I think he had some responsibility.
Besides, this sudden death of Ananias and Sapphira is described as if it is supernatural, a "miracle" (a very cruel one indeed).
But I'm not that sure.
Tue Mar 23, 11:56:00 AM 2010
skanksta said...
I vote give it to Yahweh as well.
Agree with Dan and the others that it's too much of a coincidence and surely a warning parable.
Oh, and the big guy has got form !
Tue Mar 23, 12:32:00 PM 2010
Iara said...
I believe (actually, this is what I've been told, growing up in the Church) that Ananias and Sapphira decided to lie: they would sell their land, keep some of the money for themselves, and then bring the rest to the apostles saying "hey, this is everything we got" (check verses 1-2 and 8). Acts 4:34-37 says that every christian that had some land these days were selling it and bringing the money to be divided between the community. Peter words in verse 5:4 sound quite reasonable: "There wasn't any need to lie, the land was yours, and the money is yours." I was told they died because they lied, but that sure seems like cruel and unreasonable double murder... I blame Peter, with God (or the Holy Ghost) as the murder weapon.
Tue Mar 23, 12:57:00 PM 2010
twillight said...
I think they said "ok, here's all my money", then they were striken down by biblegod. Yep, a miracle of the Bible, and the obvious reality revealed behind that the same way as the talking on language accident when the christians' house collapsed.
Tue Mar 23, 03:14:00 PM 2010
busterggi said...
Hey, it was Ananias & Saphirra's land - they didn't have to give Peter anything.
Yahweh/Jesus gave Peter the power to be greedy & homocidal so Yahweh/Jesus at least deserves an assist on these.
Tue Mar 23, 03:33:00 PM 2010
Brucker said...
I'm with lara on this one. The standard evangelical line is that these two were killed by God, although not for greed, but for lying. The portion of verse 4 that you left out indicates this. (not that killing someone for lying is going to leave a better impression on most people who dislike this story...)
Tue Mar 23, 08:52:00 PM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Do you think it was OK for God to kill them for lying, Brucker? (Even though they didn't lie in the story.)
And is this the missing part of verse 4 that was the smoking gun for God's motive (killing for lying rather than not giving everything to Peter)?
"Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power?"
I didn't realize that I'd left that out. I added an ellipsis that I should have included in the original post. (I hope God won't strike me dead for not including it in the first place.)
Tue Mar 23, 09:26:00 PM 2010
Steve Wells said...
OK, you've all convinced me. God killed them for lying, or for not giving the church all the money, or whatever.
I'll be away for a few days and won't be posting. But when I get back, I'll do the last two killings. In the meantime, see if I've forgotten any. What about Judas, for example? Would a young, healthy guy's bowels just fall out all by themselves? Or did God have something to do with it?
Tue Mar 23, 10:26:00 PM 2010
Brucker said...
Do you think it was OK for God to kill them for lying, Brucker?
Hmm, I thought I'd addressed that somewhere in my own blog, but I can't find it. Ah, of course, it was in my guest post where I addressed this issue, not that you liked my answer, of course.
(Even though they didn't lie in the story.)
Sure they do. They lie about the purchase price and what percentage they give to the church. While I don't think I would be struck dead for it, if I told everyone I was giving 100% of my income to the church when it was only 10%, I'd be lying, and therefore sinning against the church.
What about Judas, for example? Would a young, healthy guy's bowels just fall out all by themselves? Or did God have something to do with it?
The fundie party line on Judas is that the whole "field of blood" thing went like this: Judas gives back the money, and goes and hangs himself. When they cut down his body, he falls down and bursts open, as he had been hanging for some time. The field on which this happened was thereafter purchased with the money he forfeited, and used as a graveyard. God was not directly involved in Judas' death.
Tue Mar 23, 10:48:00 PM 2010
twillight said...
On Judas: accidents happen. Only if you go with the suicide-version, then could you blame Jesus (and through him God) IN CASE he was aware of Judas' mental instability (or if the betrayal was God's plan all along, and he knew about Juda's reaction before it happened and didn't change the plan...) can Jesus be blamed.
But Jesus! That WAS God's plan all along! Yep, the killing was indirect, but making one to make himself killed, IS considered murder by law.
Wed Mar 24, 06:43:00 AM 2010
vp said...
Peter told one of the most notorious lies in the bible (the denial of Jesus). And he did it three times!
Being accused by Peter of lying (even though Ananias did not explicitly lie in the text) is like being accused by John Edwards of committing adultery.
Wed Mar 24, 10:06:00 AM 2010
scooterwes said...
Boy, wouldn't the IRS love to have access to this kind of sanction for cheating on your taxes?
How come I couldn't see the horror of the violence in this story when I was an evangelical? Now as an agnostic I see it's no better than Muslims chopping off hands as a penalty for stealing a candy bar.
And as far as Judas, of course, which of deaths are you going to cover: the hanging, or the disemboweling?
Wed Mar 24, 02:21:00 PM 2010
skanksta said...
I still want you to add some more to killing 88 (ish?) - I don't think I was the only one either.
The text suggested a lot more deaths than you'd given - I'll find out which one for when you get back - you deserve a holiday !
Wed Mar 24, 02:46:00 PM 2010
vp said...
@Steve Wells:
What about the deaths of 2000 pigs in the Gerasene demoniac story? (Mark 5)
Jesus gives permission for the demons to enter the pigs, presumably using his God-given power.
Or do non-human deaths not count?
Thu Mar 25, 12:05:00 AM 2010
Brucker said...
Animal deaths would be virtually uncountable: consider the sacrificial system from Genesis 3 forward through Noah and into the Israelite system. The number is no doubt in the billions.
Thu Mar 25, 07:37:00 PM 2010
twillight said...
But it is an interresting idea on the animals.
Steve have 2 kind of list on the human-killings: one with the precisly given numbers, and one with the estimated total.
So if someone had the time, the cases where the exact numbers (or percentage) were given, that version of the list could be assembled.
Fri Mar 26, 04:46:00 AM 2010
skanksta said...
Animal deaths...wow !
Steve,
It was god's 85th killing, "the delivering of the Moabites". You DID up to 3,000 but I still don't think this is enough.
The bronze-age holy book states...
"The LORD ... will deliver the Moabites ... into your hand. And ye shall smite every fenced city, and every choice city, and shall fell every good tree, and stop all wells of water, and mar every good piece of land with stones"
To cut a long story short that's what they did.
You upped to 3k, but the suggestion is definitely more than 3 cities - I'd suggest 5 - and I also think the big guy deserves more for "collateral" damage.
He specifically tells the Israelites to devastate the land - essentially a mixture of deforestation (very serious in marginal arid deserts) and also poisoning wells.
I think at least 5 cities, (so 5k not 3k) AND at least SOME more for the deliberate environmental terrorism. I think AT LEAST another 250 for this.
Anyone else ?
Sat Mar 27, 03:08:00 PM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
And as far as Judas, of course, which of deaths are you going to cover: the hanging, or the disemboweling?
For some reason, I'm now imagining Judas hanging himself with his disemboweled intestines; yeeesshhh... :-S
Also, how come we've suddenly jumped so far ahead? There's no God-killings in any of the other prophetic books or Gospels?
Sun Mar 28, 08:23:00 PM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Brucker: Do you agree with the "fundie party line" on Judas' death? That Peter just forgot to mention that Judas hung himself before he fell down and "burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out."
If Judas fell and exploded with his intestines spewed about, then that was it was a miraculous death and another of God's mighty and wondrous killings. That sort of thing just doesn't happen naturally.
Matthew: I've skipped ahead so far because I can't find any other of God's killings between Ezekiel's wife and Judas. God has great plans that he reveals through his bat-shit crazy prophets for huge, bloody mass murders, but he's saving it for later. But I wouldn't be surprised if I missed a couple along the way. Let me know if you find any.
Mon Mar 29, 08:59:00 AM 2010
ethan.currier said...
Ananias and Sapphira clearly lied straight to The Holy Spirit. By not giving the full amount when they were supposed to, and everyone around them was. while this may not be verbally interpreted, it is not telling the full story, or being dishonest. dishonest- altered, not honest; LYING , cheating etc. The reason Ananias was given no time to say a word in his own defense is because there is no excuse for lying to The Holy Spirit (God). Any word in his defense would have been a lie or a non-relevant excuse; he lied to God, end of story.
Mon Mar 29, 02:34:00 PM 2010
skanksta said...
@ Ethan Currier...
Surely anyone who has a personal relationship with a god for any length of time, (ie - EVERY believer) MUST lie to their god at SOME time or other ?
I lied to Ba'al, (I worshipped him for a while in my 20s) and Poseidon during a particularly frightening and emetic boat trip.
I once talked to Jesus - said I was sorry for pretending to become a Catholic, just so I could get married in a beautiful church on the beach in Italy - and I was lying thru' my back teeth then too.
Why aren't I dead ?
and why aren't other believers ?
Have you ever lied to your god, (Allah I'm guessing?) ?
would we deserve if our god killed us for lying to him ?
Interested in your response...
Mon Mar 29, 05:14:00 PM 2010
Danny said...
@Skanksta
I don't think Ba'al counts. I don't know much about him but I doubt lying is a Death Penalty to him.
Poseidon on the other hand you got lucky. He either wasn't listening or you have protection from a higher voice. He does kill people just because.
As far as The God (of Christians) is concerned, I believe that showing and killing is out of practice. Since he left the world to it's luck a long time ago, he will not do anything besides showing his face on bread for his amusement.
Note: I do not approve of killing for lying. The punishement should always be in-line with the fault. Lying (even to gods) should be considered a minor fault specially if the consquences can be corrected.
Thu Apr 15, 02:08:00 PM 2010
Dennis Brown said...
We are living in a realm of duality and fragmentation. The beginning of Pentecost occurred in the period in history of the divided tongue beneath the constellation of the two fishes or the fragmented church. God hides nothing.
Peter displayed his divided tongue by pointing their sins and speaking death upon them when he was supposed to speak life and grace. Note the absolute lack of commentary by the scripture. The revelation is finely tuned in order that whatever the hearts condition is will find whatever that heart's condition is. Life and death is on the power of the tongue. James tells us blessing and cursing should not come forth from the same tongue. Notice what happened to the believers and those outside the church when this happened. The believers were in great fear (Greek-phobos or terror). Terror is not from God and believers are not to walk in fear. But remember we are at the start of Pentecost and the division and trouble doesn't take long to occur. Paul said these things must and we will eventually come to a recognition of Christ within(Tabernacles) and come into unity. Notice also in 5:13 that 'none of the rest dared join them.' And the next verse they are growing again. This is the church of the divided tongue. Someday we'll speak life and turn this around but not until we come to unity (Ephesians 5:13) Love and life to you all in Christ.
Sat Oct 30, 12:08:00 PM 2010
Elvis Ford said...
God’s reasons for bringing about the deaths of Ananias and Sapphira involve His abhorrence of sin, the unbelief of the two people and the lesson for the rest of the church, both then and now. With the emphasis of the modern church on God’s love and mercy, how easy it can be to gloss over the holiness of God, to forget that He is righteous and pure and that He hates sin with every fiber of His being.
Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/Ananias-and-Sapphira.html#ixzz2izxcVL54
Mon Oct 28, 12:13:00 AM 2013
Collision of Souls said...
Do you really believe God was holding Ananias and Sapphira's sin against them. If you do you are in opposition to the scripture in 2 Corinthians 5:19: "that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation." If God is not counting people's sin against them then something else was going on here, Elvis. What would that be. Christ dealt with the world's sin at the cross and God is reconciled to man. We are to tell people God is their friend, not their torturer and killer. Your default setting of sin consciousness is the problem and maybe that is why Paul had to repeatedly tell Peter to get his act together when he was imputing people's sins to them.
Tue Oct 29, 04:32:00 AM 2013
Elvis Ford said...
@Collision of Souls. I'm not a pastor, nor theologian, just a believer, and I thought the whole story about these two was, well, a little harsh. So I researched the story and found this answer. Perhaps if read this in its entirety it will be more clear the reason(s). http://www.gotquestions.org/Ananias-and-Sapphira.html#ixzz2izxcVL54
Tue Oct 29, 09:20:00 AM 2013
Collision of Souls said...
Elvis: I am not a pastor or theologian either, but I am one who wants the truth and institutions, I have found, can not offer me truth, just their doctrines. Truth is a person and that person is Christ. Christ has taken us all the way to the Father and there is no longer anything to fear. He's good with us and we can be good with him. I wish you well. http://isleofexile.blogspot.ca/2013/02/halfway-there.html
Tue Oct 29, 02:48:00 PM 2013
Elvis Ford said...
Thank you my brother in Christ. I am so grateful.
Tue Oct 29, 09:09:00 PM 2013
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22 March 2010God kills Ezekiel's wife and tells him not to mourn her death
I guess God was trying to make some kind of point in this killing. Maybe you can help me figure out what it was.
God had just revealed some important stuff to Ezekiel.
Thus saith the Lord GOD ... Woe to the bloody city, to the pot whose scum is therein, and whose scum is not gone out of it! ... That it might cause fury to come up to take vengeance; I have set her blood upon the top of a rock, that it should not be covered. ... Woe to the bloody city! ... Heap on wood, kindle the fire, consume the flesh, and spice it well, and let the bones be burned ... that the filthiness of it may be molten in it, that the scum of it may be consumed. She hath wearied herself with lies, and her great scum went not forth out of her: her scum shall be in the fire. ... I the LORD have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare. Ezekiel 24:3-14
So there you have it. God is going to make a bloody, scum-filled soup using human blood, bones, and body parts. It will come to pass and God will spare no one.
Then in the next verse he announces his next killing: Ezekiel's wife.
Also the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Son of man, behold, I take away from thee the desire of thine eyes with a stroke. Ezekiel 24:15-16aa
Now, I don't think God meant to say here that he was going to kill Ezekiel's wife "with a stroke." Here's how the Revised Standard Version puts it.
Son of Man, behold, I am about to take the delight of your eyes away from you at a stroke." Ezekiel 24:16a (SRV)
So although we don't know how, we do know he's going to kill her right away, "in a stroke."
And when he does, God doesn't want Ezekiel to mourn her death in any way. He's not allowed to cry, take his shoes off, cover his lips, bind the tire of his head, or eat the bread of men.
Yet neither shalt thou mourn nor weep, neither shall thy tears run down. Forbear to cry, make no mourning for the dead, bind the tire of thine head upon thee, and put on thy shoes upon thy feet, and cover not thy lips, and eat not the bread of men. Ezekiel 24:16a-17
And that's what happens. God killed Ezekiel's wife and Ezekiel didn't give a shit.
My wife died; and I did in the morning as I was commanded. Ezekiel 24:16
Then God and Ezekiel explain the whole point of this killing to everyone in Israel. God will kill their sons and daughters, and no one is allowed to mourn them after they die, like Ezekiel didn't mourn his wife when God killed her. (At least I think that's the point here. Let me know if you think I'm wrong.)
Here's what Ezekiel told the people after God killed his wife.
The word of the LORD came unto me, saying ... your sons and your daughters ... shall fall by the sword. And ye shall do as I have done: ye shall not cover your lips, nor eat the bread of men. And your tires shall be upon your heads, and your shoes upon your feet: ye shall not mourn nor weep ... Thus Ezekiel is unto you a sign: according to all that he hath done shall ye do. Ezekiel 24:20-24
Well, now, that's a point worth killing for, isn't it?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
God's next killing: Judith is blessed above all women (for cutting off a sleeping man's head)
Posted by Steve Wells at 3/22/2010 09:30:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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6 comments:
busterggi said...
According to Yahweh anything is an excuse for killing.
Tue Mar 23, 03:36:00 PM 2010
teavee said...
It seems that the biggest and final point God wants to make is at the end of Ezekiel 24:24 "... and when this cometh, ye shall know that I am the Lord GOD." (Also Ezekiel 24:27). God always seems to be doing something to make sure everyone knows he's boss.
But I fail to see how the remaining sons and daughters dieing by the sword would be attributed to God rather than whoever is wielding the sword. Wouldn't it be more effective to kill the sons and daughters with "a stroke" as well?
Also, Ezekiel 24:24 seems circular. If people agree to suppress weeping and mourning as directed by God don't they already accept "I am the Lord GOD".
And does anyone know how "I will profane my sanctuary" in Ezekial 24:21 relates to the rest of the verse?
Thu Mar 25, 04:45:00 PM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
Wow; God sure does love allegorical killing...
Sun Mar 28, 08:18:00 PM 2010
The Black Bot said...
Ah, that's nothing. He killed every man, woman, and child on the earth except 8 people. Not to mention the animals to. Kill her for no reason pales in comparison.
Fri Apr 02, 03:59:00 PM 2010
manbooks said...
If one starts with naturalism as a worldview, religion can only be viewed as the refuge for the weak. However, if you don't see any reason to begin with naturalistic philosophy, and are willing to examine the evidence, it points to a Creator. And if we are created, we are therefore accountable to that Creator, and He may do with us as He pleases. If He would send a flood to judge the world, we cannot say He is wrong. If He sends His Son not to judge the world, but that through him the world might be saved, we cannot say He is wrong. If He created man, rather than man "creating" Him, His law is binding on man, whether or not man chooses to obey.
Sat Sep 04, 10:33:00 AM 2010
wjanoch said...
The city was already bloody, that is, full of murder and violence. And it was full of scum. That is why God was going to destroy it. The prophet's wife was that type of person,wretched and unwilling to change. Killing her is something our governments today would probably do, though we're not given specific details about her crimes. She was not worthy to be mourned, that's why she was chosen as the example for what was going to happen to the wicked people of the city.
Tue Apr 30, 06:54:00 AM 2013
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22 March 2010Job's Daughters (even prettier than the originals!)
Remember how, in God's 107th killing, a big wind blew down the house that Job's children were partying in? Well, it was all a part of God's plan -- or in this case, his bet with Satan.
In case you were wondering, God won the bet. Job never cursed God, even after he killed his children, slaves and animals, and then tormented Job with all kinds of nasty diseases.
And in the end, everything worked out well for Job. God gave him twice as much stuff as he had before, and even gave him seven new sons and three new daughters to replace the ones that he killed in his bet with Satan.
The new daughters even had names. And, best of all, the they were even prettier than the originals! They were the fairest women in all the land (fairer even than Snow White and the witch).
And he called the name of the first, Jemima; and the name of the second, Kezia; and the name of the third, Kerenhappuch. And in all the land were no women found so fair as the daughters of Job. Job 42:14-15
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You've probably heard of the masonic organization, "Job's Daughters," where young girls dress up in sheets and old men decide who is prettiest.
Yeah, well, now you know where the name comes from: the three pretty replacement daughters for the original (not as pretty) daughters of Job.
How sick is that?
Posted by Steve Wells at 3/22/2010 05:17:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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28 comments:
twillight said...
I scammed the Bible, and made a different list, then your God's killings list Steve.
I was interrested, how many holocausts the jews commited.
I found 33. Here is the reference-list (sry for only telling the chapter, and not being exact to verses):
1) (Gen. 34.)
2) (Num. 21.)
3) (Num. 31.)
4) (Deu. 2.)
5) (Deu. 3.)
6) (Jos. 6.)
7) (Jos. 8.)
8) (Jos. 10.)
9) (Jos. 10.)
10) (Jos. 10.)
11) (Jos. 10.)
12) (Jos. 10.)
13) (Jos. 10.)
14) (Jos. 10.)
15) (Jos. 11.)
16) (Jos. 11.)
17) (Jos. 11.)
18) (Jos. 11.)
19) (Jos. 11.)
20) (Jos. 11.)
21) (Jud. 1.)
22) (Jud. 12.)
23) (Jud. 18.)
24) (Jud. 20.)
25) (Jud. 21.)
26) (1Sam. 15.)
27) (1Sam 25.)
28) (2Sam. 8.)
29) (2Sam. 12.)
30) (1Kings 18.)
31) (2Kings 10.)
32) (2Kings 23.)
33) (Est. 9.)
The list was inspired by a new law around here: it became unlawful denying or undersizing the holocaust. Too bad they didn't defined holocausts (nor any other parts of the law), so if someone would say "hey, Avatar was just a movie, so damn the Navii-holocaust", then that person can end up in prison for 3 years!
Tue Mar 23, 01:08:00 AM 2010
nietzschesbulldog said...
W?T?F?
Fri Mar 26, 10:03:00 PM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
Interesting, twillight, but how do you define "holocaust"? Wouldn't "genocide" be a more appropriate term?
Now, as for Job's Daughters, that's...
Well, there are no words.
Sun Mar 28, 08:16:00 PM 2010
nacolekinney said...
hey sorry to inform you but you have your facts about Job's Daughters 100% wrong. One they are not sheets, and two old men don't decide who is the prettiest. job's daughters is an orinization that asists girls into become young women who well respect other people and not sit here and take things out of context and turn it around and make sound like a bad thing just to make themselves feel
beter about there own pittiful lives.(which is what you are doing.)
now why dont you grow up and get a life.
Sun May 30, 08:44:00 PM 2010
Anne said...
I hope you do more research about Job's Daughters. Sometimes the "cult" stories are convincing, but I feel that if you talked to members and experts on the topic you will feel differently.
I am happy to answer all of your questions about Job's Daughters. Please check out my blog, http://astegen.personal.asu.edu/wordpress/ which I just started about "Jobies."
Thanks,
Anne Stegen
Grand Bethel Honored Queen
Arizona, 2010-2011
Mon Sep 20, 09:48:00 PM 2010
qandlequeen said...
Yeah, you got the organization flat out wrong. Not sure where your got your information but the girls dress in white robes so that all are equal - no beauty contest to be had. All leadership roles are held by women, however there are a few council positions available to dads and masons.
This is a fabulous organization for teen girls to learn leadership, responsibility and community involvement.
Sun Jan 09, 03:44:00 PM 2011
Steve Wells said...
nacolekinner, Anne, and qandlequeen,
So the Job's Daughters organization has nothing to do with Job's daughters in the Bible? You know the replacement daughters that God made for Job to replace the ones that he and Satan killed in the bet? The ones that were even prettier than the originals? Job's daughters has nothing to do with them. Is that what you're saying?
Sun Jan 09, 06:06:00 PM 2011
sarcastic wit said...
ok Job's Daughters is based on the story of job yes. but we are not trying to put ourselves on a pedestal and say we are any better or prettier than anyone. we are also not based of the second daughters. we are based off the originals. Job's Daughters is and organization for young women to learn leadership and social skills.
Brooke Butters
Grand Bethel Representative to California #1
Wed Mar 23, 10:54:00 PM 2011
Steve Wells said...
sarcastic wit,
You say that "we are also not based of the second daughters. we are based off the originals." But that's not what the founder of Job's Daughters said about it.
Here's a quote from the official Job's Daughters website:
"The Book of Job had been chosen by Mrs. Mick as the foundation of the Order. Her own mother had often stated that her girls should strive to be like the Daughters of Job: “the Fairest in the Land”. – Job 42:15."
The daughters that were "the Fairest in the Land" were the replacement daughters, not the originals. God and Satan killed the originals and then God replaced them with prettier ones.
Thu Mar 24, 08:52:00 AM 2011
sarcastic wit said...
okay apparently u don't know anything about Job's Daughters. Yes in the bible it says that those were the names of the seconded daughters, but i am a job's daughter so i think i know what i am talking about. i am actually studying the story of job right now. i have it memorized in fact. so u can go ahead and think what u want but don't go around talking about crap u don't know anything about
Brooke Butters Bethel #8 Id
Grand Rep to Cali. #1
Ok going off of your quote it only talks about the fairest in the land. and in the book of job it doesn't state that the first daughters were the fairest in the land. in fact it doesn't talk about them at all really. Therefore they could also be the fairest in the land not just the second daughters who are talked about more. He could have also given them inheritance among their brothers. It doesn't state that though.
Sierra Butters bethel #8
Grand Bethel Librarian
to the state of Idaho
Thu Mar 24, 11:09:00 AM 2011
Steve Wells said...
Sorry, sarcastic wit. You may be a Job's daughter, but, if so, you weren't imitating Job's original daughters -- at least you weren't supposed to be imitating them. You were supposed to be imitating the new, prettier daughters that God made from scratch for Job as a reward for not complaining when he and his satanic gambling buddy killed Job's uglier, original daughters.
Thu Mar 24, 02:48:00 PM 2011
Sierra B. ♥♥♥♥ said...
like i said u can think what u want. u are not worth the waste of time.
Thu Mar 24, 03:23:00 PM 2011
Sierra B. ♥♥♥♥ said...
ok. it never state's whether or not it is the first or second set of daughters it can be either one but it's most likely the second group. because they lived died.
Sierra Butters
Bethel #8
Grand bethel Librarian Idaho
Thu Mar 24, 10:47:00 PM 2011
mikenzied said...
I understand you are not a believer in the Bible, but that is really no way to interpret the organization of Job's Daughters. I am an agnostic and participated in Job's Daughters for over seven years. I have learned many valuable skills from it including public speaking and patience and I can assure you, wholeheartedly, that it is not a cult, beauty pageant or popularity contest. It is a humble organization with the aim of promoting patience, faith, leadership, and friendship throughout the community. Ethel T. Wead Mick did base the organization on Job 42:15 "...and in all the land were no women found so fair as the daughters of Job; and their father gave the inheritance among their brethren" (so yes, technically it is based on the second set of daughters but that is not the point). However, "fair" does not only imply physical beauty. Mick only meant to use this as a foundation to shape the participants of the organization to be "fair" all around, as in strong, well-rounded, and humble. Your statement that "old men decide who is prettiest" is completely untrue, and shows what little knowledge you have of the organization. There is nothing sick about the organization at all except the way you have assumed it operates. I urge you to speak with Anne Stegen and to not make such crass assumptions about youth groups you know nothing about in the future.
Mikenzie Denholtz
Past Honored Queen of Bethel #257, Riverside CA
Mon Aug 08, 01:42:00 PM 2011
mikenzied said...
I understand you are not a believer in the Bible, but that is really no way to interpret the organization of Job's Daughters. I am an agnostic and participated in Job's Daughters for over seven years. I have learned many valuable skills from it including public speaking and patience and I can assure you, wholeheartedly, that it is not a cult, beauty pageant or popularity contest. It is a humble organization with the aim of promoting patience, faith, leadership, and friendship throughout the community. Ethel T. Wead Mick did base the organization on Job 42:15 "...and in all the land were no women found so fair as the daughters of Job; and their father gave the inheritance among their brethren" (so yes, technically it is based on the second set of daughters but that is not the point). However, "fair" does not only imply physical beauty. Mick only meant to use this as a foundation to shape the participants of the organization to be "fair" all around, as in strong, well-rounded, and humble. Your statement that "old men decide who is prettiest" is entirely untrue and there is nothing even close to paralleling this in Job's Daughters. There is nothing sick about the organization at all except the way you believe it operates. I urge you to speak with Anne Stegen (she is a Job's Daughter with high honors) and to not make such rude and crass assumptions about innocent youth groups you know nothing about in the future.
Mikenzie Denholtz
Past Honored Queen of Bethel #257, Riverside
Mon Aug 08, 01:48:00 PM 2011
Name Not Necessary said...
I'm a bit late to this party, but, this is addressed to Sarcastic Wit:
I am a former Jobie. I joined in 1974 at the age of eligibility and was in the organization for about four years. That would make me almost 50 years old now.
The names of the daughters of Job were listed in the IOJD handbook when I was in the organization. They are the names of the three latter daughters of Job: Keren Happauch, Kezia, and Jemima
As to the general statements about dress and beauty contests, the girls wore heavy white linen robes with satin cording (a very long rope that is attached to the robe and ties around it). The lower ranking officers (girls) wore purple cording , while the higher ranking officers wore white cords. These were to signify purity. The highest three levels of office in the organization are Junior Princess, Senior Princess and Honored Queen. There is no beauty contest, but, the naming of the titles can leave little to the imagination, which is unfortunate. At the same time, when I was in the organization, we had a social event that was geared towards "Secret Dads" - where a Mason and a young Jobie would be matched up for gifts on Valentines Day. This sounds very suggestive, but, it was actually quite innocent. I baked a cake for my Secret Dad, and I think he gave me some sort of necklace which I now can't even remember what it looked like.
Mon Oct 17, 02:07:00 PM 2011
casseypollard said...
ya seriously, this all gets out of hand, because people need jobs, and lives. i can make comments about several thing i question.... but i don't because i don't really know what i'm talking about. like our first comments on this page.i am a past honered queen. the women in my family are as well. the men masons.never was there anything perverse no one picked out who was pretty in jobs. thats sociaty, so i guess thats your cult. our robes are for puroty our tassles and colors all stand for innosent thing. we learn everything by memorization. we r poised, and assistant to the community. we are cheerleaders, and soccer players. we are mothers, sisters, and DAUGHTERS!!!!! thank you.
Tue Nov 22, 09:57:00 AM 2011
kat said...
what is it that jobs daughters are to have faith in?
Wed Dec 21, 12:29:00 PM 2011
kat said...
what is it that jobs daughters are supposed to have faith in?
Wed Dec 21, 12:30:00 PM 2011
Sharon said...
I love this content. My daughter was in Job's for many years. Before she joined, I was sceptical, investigated and concerned of cultish activities. What I could find out about it was..nothing. So I let her join and thought I would watch, closely. What I found out was that this was a wonderful organization.
Everything in a meeting has a purpose. Adults are refered to as Mom ___ or Dad___. This gives the attitude of familiarity along side of respect for that person.
The ritualism of the meetings remind me of an FFA meeting for those who know of FFA. NO big deal.
The phrasing of bringing girls into womanhood, or however worded must be looked at for the time it was written. Really. If it were today, the wording might look a little different. Years ago more emphasis was on how we presented ourselves, as it still should be. Think of a visit to the mall on a Saturday afternoon and tell me different!
The Christian part of things is more of an overtone. We understood it as any member should have a faith of their own choosing. Once each term (6months) we would have a go to church Sunday and the Honored Queen would choose. This gave opportunity to experience many traditions, churches.
Also, the main point of the story of Job is not the daughters but the adversity that Job had to endure. Life has many adversities and the story of Job is reminded as part of the meeting. To be strong,true and faithful and that through that they would be known as Daughters of Job.
We did have ethnic diversity and this cultural experience was brought into the meetings.
Much of the meeting was memorized. Why not? There should be something to strive for other that showing up. If you didn't memorize you weren't kicked out!
Someone mentioned having a Mason as a "secret dad" or something like that, where they exchanged gifts at Valentines. There is always encouragement in the youth being somewhat involved with the Mason's as the Mason's give them the connection for membership, help support them by giving them space to meet and offering grants for projects. Jobies show thanks by secret pals, making a dinner or some other small project. This is not different than any other supportive organization. Teaching to be appreciative is a good thing.
The girls love the robes. yes, they are akin to uniforms, but prettier.
To be a daughter of Job, symboically, really represents being part of positive end to a story of trials and tribulations. By hanging in there, life can be good again, even better. Not a bad message. Mikenzied, who posted August 8, 2011..You wrote well.You are a Rock Star.
Mon Jan 16, 08:22:00 AM 2012
Jobie said...
Jobs daughter's is based on the book of job where it states that in all the land were none so fair as the daughters of Job and their father gave them an inheritence among their brethren.
We believe that to be fair is to do good. Nothing about beauty. Old men do not decide who is pretty. We are not a beauty pageant group.
As for the 'sheet' they are uniforms designed by the founder to make everyone equal and we haven't changed them since 1920.
Soooo Get your facts right about the Order before you insult it.
Its Girl Guides (Girl Scouts) with a funny uniform that's it
Thu May 10, 12:39:00 AM 2012
Steve Wells said...
Jobie,
You say that "Jobs daughter's is based on the book of job where it states that in all the land were none so fair as the daughters of Job."
So which set of Job's daughters is the organization based on? The original set that God and Satan killed in a bet, or the replacement set that God provided after killing Job's (real) daughters?
Thu May 10, 09:03:00 AM 2012
Sadie said...
Job's Daughters is based on the second set of daughters, Steve. Keren Happauch (a cornucopia for "plenty" is her symbol) the Honored Queens station. Kezia (an urn of incense is her symbol, it looks like a genies lamp) the Senior Princess' station. Jemima (symbolizes a dove) the Junior Princess' station. These stations are the last 3 of the 5 that are referred to as Line Offices and the girls holding these positions are called the Line Officers. The other two Line positions are Guide and Marshal. The Line Officers are decided based on elections, however, electioneering is prohibited. The girls of the bethel vote for whatever 'daughter' they feel is worthy/ready to be elected into the Line. They start at Marshal and are normally elected up to HQ. Sometimes girls can be essentially kicked out of the line for behavior, delinquency, or bad reputation caused by catty teenage girls. That's very rare. Some girls may never be elected up the line, which could be viewed as lack of popularity/favoritism, etc. Which, sadly, is common. Girls are allowed to switch Bethels if they feel like their Bethel doesn't want them. I feel like you are focusing on the wrong aspects of the Order. Appearance has nothing to do with being elected into the positions, its an Honor to hold those positions. There is one Mason installed as the Bethel's Associate Guardian and usually they are a dad to one of the girls. The Guardian is usually one of the moms (glorified chaperones if you will). Members of these organizations definitely have high standards for themselves and their peers. They expect themselvesto do great things and have many successes. But where the story of Job comes in is truly to humble the girls. No matter how pious Job was, everything was taken from him in an instant. Instead of cursing God for His will, Job remained more faithful than ever to God and was rewarded in plenty. New children, new stock and crops. Everything Job once had was restored because he maintained his faith in God through his trials and tribulations. There is nothing dark or provocative that has to do with the Order of Job's Daughters. People who are uneducated and closed minded make this Order seem that way. This organization helps young women with many different things. Most of the girls who join are at the awkward stages in life, like puberty, junior high and high school. This organization teaches them to reach for the highest attainments in life, which is interpreted differently by every girl who joins. This organization teaches girls to shoot for the stars, that everything their heart desires is in within reach. For your own personal enjoyment, I am certain you will call me out or question something else about this Order for young women. But if you want answers, check out the book every Job's Daughter uses. The Ritual. You won't be brainwashed, but maybe you'll be more understanding. If you read it and are still curious, approach a Mason and ask to join. You can join it, see that they don't fantasize about the youth Orders, and then quit. But my bet is that you would stay involved because of the greatness and secrecy within the organization. I stumbled upon your blog by googling something not quite related and found the ignorant title to be amusing. Out of curiosity I kept reading and chose to answer your question to Jobie. The organization is based on the book of Job in the Bible, yes. But not wholeheartedly. the organization is based on the teachings of the story: "If you remain faithful to God, even through hard times, you will be immensely rewarded for being patient and faithful." Leadership, virtues, friendship, memory skills, speaking skills, thoughtfulness, acceptance, and trust in God are the major takeaways from this organization. Your assumptions are inappropriate and tactless. I hope you have changed your negative outlook on the Book of Job and IOJD.
Past Honored Queen to Bethel 57, and Majority Member.
P.S. You're Welcome.
Mon Jul 30, 04:23:00 AM 2012
AyeMahomie4Life said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Sun Mar 24, 09:09:00 PM 2013
Olivia Metz said...
Hello. I am actually in jobs daughters. I from Wisconsin and will be caped and crowned as junior princess in January. I am 12 years old and have been in this organization for two years. Dear Sharon, Name Not Necessary, and Sadie: we are living the dream.
Thu Sep 19, 06:01:00 AM 2013
Brony Joe said...
I know that I am commenting on an over three-year old post.
I'm glad that the testimonials of the actual "Jobies" themselves dispels some of the cult-like imaginings of the skeptics.
Still, after reading all the comments, it still eludes me why the organization decided to name itself based on a rather morally questionable story from the bible.
People are capable of change, right? So, why continue to identify yourselves with what appeared to be girls who were brought in to replace the children of Job who were mercilessly made to suffer and die to satisfy a divine wager?
One doesn't even need to bring belief into the equation; you could look upon it as a believer of the bible verses (Job actually existed, as well as the god he worshiped) or you could just be looking at it as a fictional tale, but with genuine human values as a reference.
A positive female-powered organization doesn't seem to be doing itself any favors that way. By your descriptions, you don't seem to be the "replacement daughters" that the tale was about.
Tue Oct 01, 01:52:00 AM 2013
Livibug said...
They based it on job because he believed.
Thu Oct 31, 12:19:00 PM 2013
Flylife said...
Regardless of what you believe about the message of the book of Job,(I'm not sure what it is myself) what nobody is mentioning is that the second set of daughters of Job in the book are blameless in the story. They are "created" after the worst part of the bet, and have no part in it whatsoever. For women and girls to model themselves after the second set of daughters seems pretty harmless IMHO.
Sun Feb 02, 02:11:00 AM 2014
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22 March 2010God and/or Satan kill Job's children, slaves, and animals
This is the only killing in the Bible that Satan had anything to do with. And he didn't do it alone; God was a co-conspirator.
The story begins by introducing Job.
Job was a perfect man with 7 sons, 3 daughters, 7000 sheep, 3000 camels, 500 oxen, 500 she asses, and lots of slaves. He was the greatest man east of the Mediterranean.
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil. And there were born unto him seven sons and three daughters. His substance also was seven thousand sheep, and three thousand camels, and five hundred yoke of oxen, and five hundred she asses, and a very great household; so that this man was the greatest of all the men of the east. Job 1:1-3
Job's sons liked to party a lot, and they often invited their sisters over to party with them.
And his sons went and feasted in their houses, every one his day; and sent and called for their three sisters to eat and to drink with them. Job 1:4
Job worried that his sons (he didn't worry about about his daughters) might sin while they were partying, so Job spent all his time killing animals for God in order to sanctify his sons.
And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually. Job 1:5
One day the sons of God came over to to God's place. And Satan was with them.
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. Job 1:6
God ignored his other sons, but was especially interested in Satan. He hadn't seen him for a while and wanted to know what he'd been up to lately.
And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Job 1:7a
Satan said that he'd been down hiking around on earth.
Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. Job 1:7b
God asked Satan if he'd seen Job, you know, the guy that is perfect, upright, God-fearing, and whatnot.
And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? Job 1:8
Satan knew who God was talking about. He told God that Job had a good reason to be good. God made Job the biggest big shot east of Eden, protecting him from everything bad and giving him everything good.
Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. Job 1:9-10
Take away the protection and mess with his stuff, and he'll curse you to your face, Big Guy.
But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. Job 1:11
So God said, "You're on, Satan. Go back down to earth and and do whatever the hell you want with his stuff. But don't do anything to him."
And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. Job 1:12a
So Satan left God's place and, presumably, went down to earth to visit Job.
So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD. Job 1:12b
When Satan got down to earth, he found Job's children partying, as usual.
And there was a day when his sons and his daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house: Job 1:13
And then all hell broke loose.
A messenger came to tell Job that the Sabeans had taken his oxen and asses and killed all his slaves ("servants" in the KJV).
And there came a messenger unto Job, and said, The oxen were plowing, and the asses feeding beside them: And the Sabeans fell upon them, and took them away; yea, they have slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. Job 1:14-15
And then, while he was still talking to the first messenger, another messenger showed up, telling him that "a fire from God had fallen from heaven" and burned up Job's sheep and slaves (I guess some slaves must have survived the Sabean attack).
While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. Job 116:
And then while the second messenger was talking, a third messenger arrived to tell Job that a wind came up and knocked down the house that his children were partying at, killing them all.
(These three messengers were, of course, the only ones who survived.)
While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, Thy sons and thy daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house: And, behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. Job 1:18-19
After Job heard these three messages he ripped up his clothes, shaved his head, fell on his face, and worshiped the God who had just murdered his children.
Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped. Job 1:20
Oh, and he also said that he was born naked and would die naked, God gives and takes away, blessed be his name.
And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD. Job 1:21
God burned to death his slaves and animals and murdered his children, but Job didn't blame God.
In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly. Job 1:22
But God was to blame, even if Job didn't have the guts to say so.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We know that God and Satan killed Job's seven sons and three daughters. Job also owned a lot of slaves, which were killed in God's little bet with Satan, but the Bible doesn't say how many. I'll guess there were 50 slaves that died (some burned to death).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
God's next killing: Hananiah
Posted by Steve Wells at 3/22/2010 03:26:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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10 comments:
Person0123452 said...
Does it explicitly say that Satan carried out the killings? I noticed it says "the fire of god" fell from heaven. I wouldn't put it past Yahweh to, if satan had refused, do it himself. Either for laughs, or because he's so insecure and wanted to prove it to himself. I mean, we know god misrepresents satan anyway. In the garden of eden Satan said to eve "you will surely not die". God then accused him of decieving eve. But indeed, eve did not die. So maybe the implication that satan did the killings isn't enough to convict him of it.
I don't know the bible well, so if it does explicitly say that satan did it I guess this is redundant.
Mon Mar 22, 10:40:00 PM 2010
twillight said...
Actually, later on Job cursed his god. Check chapter 3!
Tue Mar 23, 12:57:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
You're right, Person0123452. the text doesn't say that Satan sent the Sabeans, the fire, or the wind. But it seems to be implied by God and Satan's wager, and especially by God's words in 1.12, "All that he hath is in thy power."
Does Job curse God in chapter 3, twillight? He curses the day he was born, but not God. Or did I miss it? There's a lot of boring crap in chapter 3.
Tue Mar 23, 07:53:00 AM 2010
twillight said...
It is easy to miss Steve, because of the language. You have to go slowly.
See curses are in chapter 3:
1.) Job curses the day he was born
2.) Job curses his mother
3.) Job curses God for not letting him die as a newborn, or made him imbecile
4.) Job curses God because He lets all the poors suffer, including himself
5.) Job curses God for what He did with him in the previous chapters.
Tue Mar 23, 08:20:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Really, twillight? All those curses in chapter 3? I guess I'm not reading it slowly enough because I'm only seeing the first one.
Tue Mar 23, 08:30:00 AM 2010
busterggi said...
Twi is right, Yahweh lost the bet no matter how much believers pretend the opposite.
Tue Mar 23, 03:40:00 PM 2010
twillight said...
Well, Steve, here are them by qoutes:
1.) verse 1. After this opened Job his mouth, and cursed his day.
Ok, here things was made self-evident: Job CURSED his day.
But HOW was that cursed made? The Bible reports his words! Here it comes (3:2 And Job spake, and said,):
3:3 Let the day perish wherein I was born, and the night in which it was said, There is a man child conceived.
3:4 Let that day be darkness; let not God regard it from above, neither let the light shine upon it.
3:5 Let darkness and the shadow of death stain it; let a cloud dwell upon it; let the blackness of the day terrify it.
3:6 As for that night, let darkness seize upon it; let it not be joined unto the days of the year, let it not come into the number of the months.
3:7 Lo, let that night be solitary, let no joyful voice come therein.
3:8 Let them curse it that curse the day, who are ready to raise up their mourning.
As you can see, Job never said himself out the phrase "I curse this and that", but used a much more colourful language! So start looking more of that in the later parts too!
2.) Uhm, well, my translation differs in grammar in verse 3.8-10, so skip this.
3.) 3:16 Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not been; as infants which never saw light.
"Or" here indicates this is another curse if you ask me. In the Bible God is responsible making people as they are, so when Job curses here, he doesn't curse the day he was born, but rather why he wasn't created - by God, thus cursing God - as an imbecil.
4.) Uhm, here again in my translation verse 20 looks just a little bit different. In mine God is mentioned - and thus blamed -, but oh well, this is KJV.
5.) At least this is here:
3:23 Why is light given to a man whose way is hid, and whom God hath hedged in?
Here God is bamed for what he did with Job. The verse meaning:
"Why is light given" = Why God tortures by (approximately false) hope, Job asks, and by that curses God.
"to a man whose way is hid" = the man here is Job
"and whom God hath hedged in?" = Job is the one who is hedged in by Gods' actions, depicted in chapter 1 and 2.
Tue Mar 23, 04:03:00 PM 2010
Steve Wells said...
You're probably right, twillight.
But I'd like to hear a nice, "Fuck you, Yahweh!" Or something to that effect.
Tue Mar 23, 04:57:00 PM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
Wouldn't we all, Steve; wouldn't we all...
I like that you went line-by-line, even though it's only a small segment of the story, just because it's so friggin' detailed, even for a Bible story!
Sun Mar 28, 08:11:00 PM 2010
mariolandblog said...
"This is the only killing in the Bible that Satan had anything to do with. "
That´s not entirely true. Satan killed Jesus! That bastard...
At least kind of: He put it into Judas heart to betray Jesus!
"And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him;"
(John 13:2)
But it is Jesus' own fault.
"Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.
And after the sop Satan entered into him."
(John 13:26-27)
If Jesus had not given Judas the sop, maybe the devil would never have inspired Judas to betray Jesus.
A self-fulfilling prophecy: Jesus tells everybody that Judas will betray him, which is the reason he does.
Hey, if the son of God says it will happen why try to avoid your inescapable destiny!
Wed Apr 07, 10:27:00 AM 2010
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18 March 2010Remember David: Don't fill out Satan's 2010 Census form
This is a census year in the United States. Article 1, Section 2 of the U.S. Constitution requires a complete enumeration every ten years.
[An] Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the first Meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years, in such Manner as they shall by Law direct.
But Michele Bachmann won't be participating.
She claims it has something to do with WWII Japanese American internment camps, but I think it's all about the Bible. Michele knows her Bible too well to participate in a God-damned government census.
Remember what happened with David's census? God killed 70,000 men (and who knows how many women and children) in three days of pestilence.
Why did God kill so many people? Because David had a census.
David said to Joab and to the rulers of the people, Go, number Israel ... and bring the number of them to me, that I may know it.
...
And Joab gave the sum of the number of the people unto David.
...
And God was displeased with this thing; therefore he smote Israel.
...
So the LORD sent pestilence upon Israel: and there fell of Israel seventy thousand men. 1 Chronicles 21:2-14
And why did David have the census?
Because Satan told him to.
And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel. 1 Chronicles 21:1
Michele Bachmann knows that if Satan could fool David, a man after God's own heart, he sure as hell could fool the authors of the U.S. Constitution.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note: Michele also knows that Satan had help in inspiring the David's census.
And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah. 2 Samuel 24:1
Satan and God worked on it together. But that's beside the point. God got angry and he and/or Satan inspired David to have a census and then God killed a couple hundred thousand people because of the census.
So it doesn't matter whether the 2010 census was inspired by God or Satan or both. God hates censuses, and he kills those that participate in them.
Posted by Steve Wells at 3/18/2010 10:12:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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21 comments:
vp said...
But according to Luke, Jesus was born in Bethlehem because his parents were taking part in a Roman census. And if he hadn't been born there -- maybe he couldn't have been the Messiah! So shouldn't that makes censuses (censi?) a good thing for Ms. Bachmann.
[Matthew has a completely different story, of course].
Thu Mar 18, 10:43:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Yeah, that's true, vp.
God isn't entirely consistent on censuses (or anything else, as far as I can tell).
But still, if you were a believer (like Michelle Bachmann), wouldn't David's census make you nervous? God certainly hated that census (and he loved David to death). So maybe he wouldn't like ours all that much either.
With a God like that, who wants to take a chance? (Especially when you're an anti-government teabagger.)
Thu Mar 18, 10:50:00 AM 2010
Brucker said...
It's far more complicated than that; God ordered a census in the book of Numbers, and Solomon took a census with no negative repercussions. David's inexplicably evil census is a rather strange exception to the rule, I'd say.
(In case you're wondering, this fundie is all for the census, although I'm also a godless liberal, so go figure.)
Thu Mar 18, 11:12:00 AM 2010
liminalD said...
If God hated David's census so much, why not punish HIM for it, rather than sending pestilence and plague on the poor people under his rule? They were just complying with their ruler's demands, after all...
Thu Mar 18, 11:12:00 AM 2010
Brucker said...
Interestingly, when God orderes the very first census in Exodus 30, He warns that if it's not accompanied by an offering, a plague could result.
Also, whatever is going on, Joab and the "captains of the host" warn David that it's a bad idea, but he refuses to listen. While this seems wrong (even to me) it certainly didn't come without warning.
Thu Mar 18, 11:22:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Brucker: So sometimes, God goes nuts and kills tens of thousands of people when a census is taken, and sometimes it doesn't bother him at all?
How can you be sure that this census is OK when David's census wasn't?
I know it's complicated; it's also completely nonsensical.
Thu Mar 18, 11:26:00 AM 2010
busterggi said...
Yahweh was afraid of being gerrymandered out of office by David's census which favored Baal.
Hey, if believers can pull answers out of their orifices...
Thu Mar 18, 05:06:00 PM 2010
Baconsbud said...
I am betting that she does take the census but will claim she hasn't. She knows that she is risking losing even more of her kindred believers if she doesn't fill it out. I am hoping this will be another of those foolish plans of hers that backfires.
Thu Mar 18, 05:46:00 PM 2010
skanksta said...
Brucker is back !
That's made my day - welcome fella.
Another masterpiece of Wells understated humour, "god isn't consistent on censi, or anything else" lol.
Now I know this is COMPLETELY off topic, but, it's something I'm longing to ask my American online friends.
As I'm NOT American, I often have to google some of the political/celebrity figures you mention and in doing so I learn a lot of stuff - both interesting and banal.
One thing, which I find EVEN harder to understand than the fundies that infest your country, (I guess long ago they left here) is....
WTF are Americans up in arms about a healthcare plan !! !! ?? !!
I was literally astonished to discover that the richest, most technologically advanced nation on earth DOESN'T have this.
FFS sake we've had it for like 62 years ! They have one in Portugal for crying out loud. Isn't free universal healthcare THE POINT of being a rich modern country ?
Like I say, WAY off topic, but similar in that I just don't get how crazily foreign and different you really are in the US.
As far as I can tell, it seems that the objection is you don't want to pay for it - Can that REALLY be it?
Does this split down fundie lines ?
Or do the atheists disagree with it too ? Brucker - your beliefs are always interesting ?
Anyone else ?
Sorry for taking up time on your blog with this, Steve - but...WTF?!
Thu Mar 18, 06:51:00 PM 2010
Brucker said...
The healthcare debate seems to split along party lines, which does tend to mean religious lines, since most of my fellow fundies are Republicans. As a liberal myself, I'm all for public healthcare. I think it's ridiculous to call it socialism (but even if it is I don't care), which is what the opposition is claiming.
I understand that the U.S. is the only industrialized nation without national heath care, and it's embarrassing.
Thu Mar 18, 10:10:00 PM 2010
Person0123452 said...
I'm not American, but from what I know, most seem to object being forced to pay for other peoples healthcare, even though they currently spend more on helthcare than countries with universal healthcare. I believe their government also spends a higher percentage of their budget on healthcare than countries like the UK (where I am). They also seem to think that free market is everything, and don't seem to get that companies will exploit the hell out of everything they can. They think that competition will drive prices down and quality up, even though as I say, healthcare is more expensive for them, but it is also lower quality.
Finally, some of them just plain out don't want it, because they've been taught government intervention in anything domestic is evil.
And it's not just rich developed countries. Take a look at this. Green and blue are universal healthcare:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e7/Universal_Health_Care_World_Map.svg
As for the census thing, it always makes me wtf. I can only assume that God and Satan are the same person and that it's just another mindf**k from god for the human race. Same as when he tells you to take a census. Should you do it? Should you not? Which is right?
Well, turns out neither of them are. I believe it's well documented in the bible what happens when you disobey god, but it also seems that sometimes he'll do it even if you obey him. Just to keep you on your toes. He loves that much that he's willing to slaughter tens of thousands to show us he cares when we count people. It sometimes makes me weep with joy.
Fri Mar 19, 05:02:00 AM 2010
psybermonkey said...
If Glenn Beck supports it, it's stupid. Enough said.
Fri Mar 19, 12:49:00 PM 2010
Abeille said...
Brucker!
Where have you been?
We've missed you so!
Fri Mar 19, 07:56:00 PM 2010
Brucker said...
Believe it or not, I've been working on my Master's degree. I'm hoping to become a high school math teacher.
Fri Mar 19, 10:42:00 PM 2010
Brucker said...
Having finally taken the time to actually watch the video, I have to ask, am I the only one that sees the obvious hypocrisy Bachmann is displaying here in railing against illegal aliens while implying that she's afraid that the census will be used as some sort of witch hunt?
Fri Mar 19, 11:13:00 PM 2010
skanksta said...
Thanks for your healthcare replies. Thinking about it now, I'm sure Steve did a blog on it once.
I also got the irony - from the little I know of this Bachmann woman I strongly suspect she would NOT have been standing up for the rights of interned Japanese-Americans during WW2 !
Sat Mar 20, 04:57:00 PM 2010
Brucker said...
Interesting observation. It's one of those "hindsight is 20/20" things I guess that people like her could talk about how terrible Japanese internment camps were, but I bet she wouldn't bat an eye if the current government suggested Arab internment camps. (I suppose also there might be an argument that Guantanamo is pretty much already that.)
Sat Mar 20, 07:05:00 PM 2010
Nathan said...
Maybe God killed a bunch of people so David would have to do the census all over again. That's considered a great joke in the Kingdom of Heaven.
Sun Mar 21, 02:21:00 PM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
Michele Bachmann is an imbecile... as is Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Sarah Palin, Mike Huckabee, etc.
Sorry this has devolved into a health care discussion, Steve, but the absurdity of the whole thing just pisses me off.
Sun Mar 28, 05:37:00 PM 2010
RobJP said...
Ok Steve.
If Satan told David to conduct the census and 700,000 people got killed because of it, shouldn't you at least be giving him an assist in the God VS Satan death toll?
so now he's up to 700,010.
Arguably assists though.
..and I think it's a fair point to make that God was all for censuses previously, but he was in a really shitty mood on that particular day.
Sat Jan 15, 07:29:00 PM 2011
Steve Wells said...
That's a good point, RobJP. I guess Satan was involved, depending on which story you believe, that is. In 1 Chronicles 21, Satan inspired the census, but in the 2 Samuel 24, it was God. I suppose it could have been both working together like they did in Job. But even if so, it was God that did the killing (along with some non-Satanic angels). So I think God deserves the credit (with, as you say, a possible assist to Satan).
Sat Jan 15, 07:43:00 PM 2011
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Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
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17 March 2010The Fall of Jerusalem
There are only two kinds of kings in the Bible: those that were like David and did right in the sight of the Lord and those that were not like David and did evil in the sight of the Lord. Zedekiah was in the latter group. He didn’t humble himself in front of Jeremiah, he rebelled against Nebuchadnezzar, stiffened his neck, and hardened his heart.
Zedekah … did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD his God, and humbled not himself before Jeremiah the prophet speaking from the mouth of the LORD. And he also rebelled against king Nebuchadnezzar, who had made him swear by God: but he stiffened his neck, and hardened his heart from turning unto the LORD God of Israel. 2 Chronicles 36.11-13
And everyone else in Judah was just as bad. They did all the basic heathen-like abominations, polluted the temple. You name it.
Moreover all the chief of the priests, and the people, transgressed very much after all the abominations of the heathen; and polluted the house of the LORD which he had hallowed in Jerusalem. 36.14
They even ignored, mocked, and mistreated God’s messengers.
And the LORD God of their fathers sent to them by his messengers, rising up betimes, and sending; because he had compassion on his people, and on his dwelling place. But they mocked the messengers of God, and despised his words, and misused his prophets. 36.15-16a
Well, there’s only so much of that shit that God will put up with. Finally he couldn’t take it any longer and unleashed his wrath upon them.
The wrath of the LORD arose against his people, till there was no remedy. 36.16b
He sent the Babylonians (Chaldees) to slaughter the people of Jerusalem. Young men, little girls, old people – God had them all killed without pity.
Therefore he brought upon them the king of the Chaldees, who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion upon young man or maiden, old man, or him that stooped for age: he gave them all into his hand. 36.17
Well, not all, I guess. Some survived and were carried off to Babylon.
Jeremiah gets even more carried away with this story. Here's what he says.
Thus saith the LORD God of Israel; Behold, I will turn back the weapons of war that are in your hands, wherewith ye fight against the king of Babylon, and against the Chaldeans … And I myself will fight against you with an outstretched hand and with a strong arm, even in anger, and in fury, and in great wrath. ... I will deliver Zedekiah king of Judah, and his servants, and the people, and such as are left in this city from the pestilence, from the sword, and from the famine, into the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, and into the hand of their enemies, and into the hand of those that seek their life: and he shall smite them with the edge of the sword; he shall not spare them, neither have pity, nor have mercy. ... He that abideth in this city shall die by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence: but he that goeth out, and falleth to the Chaldeans that besiege you, he shall live, and his life shall be unto him for a prey. For I have set my face against this city for evil, and not for good, saith the LORD: it shall be given into the hand of the king of Babylon, and he shall burn it with fire. Jeremiah 21:4-10
The Bible doesn't say how many God killed with the sword, famine, and disease. But according to Jeremiah, everyone in Jerusalem died, except for those who surrendered to Nebachadnezzar. So I'll guess 10,000.
God's next killing: The Purim killings
Posted by Steve Wells at 3/17/2010 08:25:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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5 comments:
busterggi said...
Its rough to be an innocent bystander when Yahweh gets on one of his drunken slaughterfests.
Thu Mar 18, 07:14:00 AM 2010
twillight said...
10,000 as all the population of Jerusalem (what most probably was defended by the whole jewish army)? Where are the glorious days, where more then a million just the jewish army numbered! Where are the times, when these people (the jews), the choosen nation of God (the jews), the nation towards any other nations behaviour is the only and most trustable signer of rightoussness (according to the jews)! Where are the times when hebrews had kings and leaders like David (who fought eeven against jews) or Joshua (who holocausted 6 nations)! Oh the great kings and leaders to remember of this religion of peace!
(I'm drasticly sarcastic here)
Thu Mar 18, 09:39:00 AM 2010
busterggi said...
Twi, that was last weeks Jews.
Thu Mar 18, 05:07:00 PM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
This week's Jews are a minority in their own land... which, to be fair, they seized from other, more innocent cultures, but still!
Sun Mar 28, 05:32:00 PM 2010
nazani said...
Does this mean that the Chaldeans (Iraqis) have a territorial claim on Israel?
Mon Apr 05, 07:16:00 AM 2010
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12 March 2010Friendly Fire: God forced "a great multitude" to kill each other
"A great multitude" of Ammonites, Moabites, and Edomites gathered to attack the kingdom of Judah.
There cometh a great multitude against thee from beyond the sea ... the children of Ammon and Moab and mount Seir [the Edomites]. 2 Chronicles 20.2
The king of Judah, Jehoshaphat, prays and prays and prays some more, asking God for help.
And Jehoshaphat stood in the congregation of Judah ... And said, O LORD God of our fathers, art not thou God in heaven? and rulest not thou over all the kingdoms of the heathen? and in thine hand is there not power and might, so that none is able to withstand thee?
...
...
...
And now, behold, the children of Ammon and Moab and mount Seir ... invade.
...
...
O our God, wilt thou not judge them? for we have no might against this great company that cometh against us; neither know we what to do: but our eyes are upon thee. 20.5-12
Everyone in Judah heard Jehoshaphat's boring prayer.
All Judah stood before the LORD, with their little ones, their wives, and their children. 20.13
And then the spirit of the Lord came upon Jahaziel (the son of Zechariah, the son of Benaiah, the son of Jeiel, the son of Mattaniah, a Levite of the sons of Asaph) who told the people of Judah not to worry. They didn’t even need to fight; God would fight for them.
Then upon Jahaziel the son of Zechariah, the son of Benaiah, the son of Jeiel, the son of Mattaniah, a Levite of the sons of Asaph, came the Spirit of the LORD in the midst of the congregation; And he said, Hearken ye, all Judah, and ye inhabitants of Jerusalem, and thou king Jehoshaphat, Thus saith the LORD unto you, Be not afraid nor dismayed by reason of this great multitude; for the battle is not yours, but God's. ... Ye shall not need to fight in this battle. 20.14-17
Then Jehoshaphat and the entire population of Judah fell on their faces.
Jehoshaphat bowed his head with his face to the ground: and all Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem fell before the LORD, worshipping the LORD. 20.18
Jehoshaphat appointed singers to praise the beauty and holiness and say to the army, "Praise the Lord."
Jehoshaphat ... appointed singers unto the LORD, and that should praise the beauty of holiness, as they went out before the army, and to say, Praise the LORD. 20.20-21
And God took care of everything else.
He ambushed the opposing army, forcing the Ammonites and the Moabites to kill the Edomites, and vice versa until "every one helped to destroy another."
When they began to sing and to praise, the LORD set ambushments against the children of Ammon, Moab, and mount Seir, which were come against Judah; and they were smitten. For the children of Ammon and Moab stood up against the inhabitants of mount Seir, utterly to slay and destroy them: and when they had made an end of the inhabitants of Seir, every one helped to destroy another. 20.22-23
And so when everyone in Judah went up to the watch tower, they saw nothing but dead bodies.
When Judah came toward the watch tower in the wilderness, they looked unto the multitude, and, behold, they were dead bodies fallen to the earth, and none escaped. 20.24
Then the people of Judah came down from the watch tower and stripped all the booty from the dead bodies. It took them three days, but they got lots of cool stuff, including precious jewels. But there was just too much for them to carry away.
When Jehoshaphat and his people came to take away the spoil of them, they found among them in abundance both riches with the dead bodies, and precious jewels, which they stripped off for themselves, more than they could carry away: and they were three days in gathering of the spoil, it was so much. 20.25
(Since there was "a great multitude" of Ammonites, Moabites, and Edomites, I estimated 30,000, 10,000 from each tribe.)
God's next killing: God made Johoram's bowels fall out
Posted by Steve Wells at 3/12/2010 11:14:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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8 comments:
skanksta said...
I don't envy you this task Steve - more updates to the list, lol !
Did you amend the figures on killing 94 or whatever it was ? I'm sure I wasn't the only one who thought you'd cheated THE LORD of several more victims...
Fri Mar 12, 09:56:00 PM 2010
Clint Burky said...
I didn't realise this about the JW's.
Conveniently I happen to work with a fellow belonging to the JW cult. I asked him where abouts did "The Watchtower" label come from.
...He had no idea!
Mon Mar 15, 07:18:00 AM 2010
-Rob said...
I don't get it -- I am not sure why people relate death with evil. Or think God is bad because people die. Death is a natural part of life and we die before we can get into heaven.
Wed Mar 17, 06:31:00 AM 2010
Nick said...
Quick, someone call all of our prisons and have the murderers released, they were just helping people get into heaven faster.
Unless you're saying we should follow a god on a "Do as I say not as I do" basis.
Wed Mar 17, 07:41:00 AM 2010
busterggi said...
Everybody was kung-fu fighting.
Thu Mar 18, 05:07:00 PM 2010
skanksta said...
You know, it was a little bit frightening !
Fri Mar 19, 05:25:00 PM 2010
Nathan said...
All I can say about this post is: Jumpin' Jehoshaphat!
Sat Mar 20, 04:22:00 PM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
Boring Jehoshaphat, more like...
Sun Mar 28, 05:25:00 PM 2010
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11 March 2010God killed 120,000 valiant men for forsaking him
After God smote Ahaz by delivering him into the hand of the Syrian king, he delivered him into the hand of another king (Pekah, the king of Israel) for some more smiting. I guess the Syrian king didn't smite Ahaz hard enough.
God should have been pleased with the second smiting, though, since it was "a great slaughter."
He [Ahaz] was also delivered into the hand of the king of Israel, who smote him with a great slaughter. 2 Chronicles 28.5b
And it was a great slaughter, too. 120,000 valiant men died in one day! (And 200,000 women and children were taken for slaves.)
For Pekah the son of Remaliah slew in Judah an hundred and twenty thousand in one day, which were all valiant men; because they had forsaken the LORD God of their fathers. ... And the children of Israel carried away captive of their brethren two hundred thousand, women, sons, and daughters. 28.6-8
But God wasn't pleased with this slaughter either. In fact, the fierce wrath of God was now on the smiters.
A prophet of the LORD was there, whose name was Oded: and he ... said unto them, Behold, because the LORD God of your fathers was wroth with Judah, he hath delivered them into your hand, and ye have slain them in a rage that reacheth up unto heaven. ... for the fierce wrath of the LORD is upon you. 28.9-11
You see, in the first smiting, the Syrians didn't kill enough people; in the second, the Israelites killed too many. God has a golden mean, sort of a Goldilocks standard for smiting. I'm guessing that God thought that 60,000 to 80,000 was the proper amount of smiting to pay forward king Ahaz for his children/incense burning activities.
In any case, the Israelites worked things out with God by sending the slaves back to Judah and giving them their stuff back. And God forgot his rage toward the Israelites and moved on to his next killing.
God's next killing: Jerusalem
Posted by Steve Wells at 3/11/2010 06:18:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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Matthew Blanchette said...
Interestingly enough, this story is where the Israeli actor Oded Fehr gets his name from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oded_Fehr
As an aside, God must get some hellish mood swings...
Sun Mar 28, 04:25:00 PM 2010
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11 March 2010God smote Ahaz with the king of Syria
Ahaz was another king that God didn't like very much. He just wasn't enough like David to suit him.
Ahaz ... did not that which was right in the sight of the LORD, like David his father. 2 Chronicles 28.1
And, it's true; he did seem to lack parenting skills.
Moreover he ... burnt his children in the fire. 28.3
But worst of all, he was a compulsive incense burner, burning incense in the high places, and on the hills, and under every green tree in Judah.
He burnt incense in the high places, and on the hills, and under every green tree. 28.4
So, of course, God had to put a stop to that.
He did it in the usual way; he smote him by delivering him into the hand of another king (this time the king of Syria).
Wherefore the LORD his God delivered him into the hand of the king of Syria; and they smote him … And he was also delivered into the hand of the king of Israel, who smote him with a great slaughter. 28.5
The text doesn't say how many of Judah's soldiers died in this smiting. But since in the next verse 120,000 soldiers die in one day, I figure it must have been at least 10,000.
God's next killing: 120,000 valiant men
Posted by Steve Wells at 3/11/2010 12:19:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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4 comments:
Dan said...
I think god makes it very clear that he prefers the "savoury" smell of burning animals, not incense. And only He is allowed to burn children, I presume.
Thu Mar 11, 12:38:00 PM 2010
twillight said...
Burning children - isn't that in a sense incest?
Incense / incest...
Maybe the whole point here is to teach you the importance of correct spelling?
Thu Mar 11, 02:01:00 PM 2010
busterggi said...
Considering the smell all those goats the Israelites were herding maybe Ahaz was just trying to freshen the air.
If Yahweh likes the smell of burning animals so much maybe he also likes the smell of the shit they left brhind.
Thu Mar 11, 04:22:00 PM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
Who knows? Maybe Yahweh's just kinky, that way... :-S
Sun Mar 28, 04:22:00 PM 2010
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11 March 2010God destroys Amaziah
The first thing we are told about king Amaziah (besides when he began to reign and the name of his parents) is that "did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, but not with a perfect heart."
Amaziah ... did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, but not with a perfect heart. 2 Chronicles 25.1-2
And the first thing that he did was murder the murderers of his father.
Now it came to pass, when the kingdom was established to him, that he slew his servants that had killed the king his father. 25.3
Next he killed 10,000 Edomites (children of Seir).
Amaziah strengthened himself, and led forth his people, and went to the valley of salt, and smote of the children of Seir ten thousand. 25.11
And then he rounded up another 10,000 Edomites and pushed them all off a cliff. And "they all were broken in pieces."
And other ten thousand left alive did the children of Judah carry away captive, and brought them unto the top of the rock, and cast them down from the top of the rock, that they all were broken in pieces. 25.12
But then, after he got back from slaughtering the Edomites, Amaziah began to worship the Edomite gods.
After that Amaziah was come from the slaughter of the Edomites, that he brought the gods of the children of Seir, and set them up to be his gods, and bowed down himself before them, and burned incense unto them. 25.14
Which, unlike throwing 10,000 people off a cliff, was not right in the eyes of the Lord.
So God sent a prophet to tell Amaziah that God was going to destroy him.
Wherefore the anger of the LORD was kindled against Amaziah, and he sent unto him a prophet, which said unto him ... God hath determined to destroy thee. 25.15-16
Next Amaziah had a meeting with king Joash of Israel, who has this to say to Amaziah:
The thistle that was in Lebanon sent to the cedar that was in Lebanon, saying, Give thy daughter to my son to wife: and there passed by a wild beast that was in Lebanon, and trode down the thistle. 25.18
Which means nothing at all to me.
But then Joash says something a bit more comprehensible.
Thou sayest, Lo, thou hast smitten the Edomites; and thine heart lifteth thee up to boast: abide now at home; why shouldest thou meddle to thine hurt, that thou shouldest fall, even thou, and Judah with thee? 25.19
Which means, I guess, "Back off, big guy."
But Amaziah didn't back off and Joash defeated him ("for it came of God").
But Amaziah would not hear; for it came of God, that he might deliver them into the hand of their enemies, because they sought after the gods of Edom. ... And Judah was put to the worse before Israel. 25.20-22
Although Amaziah's army was defeated by Joash's, Amaziah survived the battle. But years later there was a conspiracy against him and he was killed.
Now after the time that Amaziah did turn away from following the LORD they made a conspiracy against him in Jerusalem; and he fled to Lachish: but they sent to Lachish after him, and slew him there. 25.27
So God caused the death of Amaziah and the defeat of his army, and, therefore the death of many of his soldiers. So I’ll add another 1000 to God’s total.
God's next killing: Ahaz
Posted by Steve Wells at 3/11/2010 08:52:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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5 comments:
twillight said...
Yes, biblegod is responsible.
Eliminating Amaziah's soldiers was just to open the way to Amazia (dispell his protections), but the original intention is clearly mentioned in verse 16: God hath determined to destroy thee.
And that's what heppened later on, although in a little more complicated way then usual.
Thu Mar 11, 12:01:00 AM 2010
Leor said...
I know I'm being picky, but I'd like to mention that you did'nt add Amaziah's soldiers to the list.
Thu Mar 11, 03:56:00 AM 2010
busterggi said...
I'd actually give Yahweh the benefit of the doubt here.
Because:
"The thistle that was in Lebanon sent to the cedar that was in Lebanon, saying, Give thy daughter to my son to wife: and there passed by a wild beast that was in Lebanon, and trode down the thistle." 2 Chronicles 25:18
And that indicates that Yahweh was pretty hungover at the time.
Thu Mar 11, 04:31:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Leor: I've added 1000 of Amaziah's soldiers to the list.
twillight: I decided not to make a separate killing for Amaziah. I think you could say that God destroyed Amaziah by defeating his army (and thereby killing soldiers), but that God didn't participate in the assassination. I think God's guilty here, but I'm not sure I could prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.
Thu Mar 11, 09:22:00 AM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
How can Yahweh be hungover? Is there beer in Heaven?
Also, since when has God ever spoken through Joash before? In all likelihood, he was probably hungover...
Sun Mar 28, 04:20:00 PM 2010
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10 March 2010Did God kill Uzziah?
Uzziah was one of God's favorite kings. He did right in the sight of the Lord just like his father, Amaziah.
Uzziah ... did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, according to all that his father Amaziah did. 2 Chronicles 26:3-4
God helped him kill Philistines, Arabians, and Mehunim.
He went forth and warred against the Philistines ... And God helped him against the Philistines, and against the Arabians that dwelt in Gurbaal, and the Mehunims. 2 Chronicles 26:6-7
But one day Uzziah did something really awful. He burned some incense without a license.
He transgressed against the LORD his God, and went into the temple of the LORD to burn incense upon the altar of incense. 2 Chronicles 26:16
Azariah and 80 priests descended upon him and told him that only priest can burn incense.
And Azariah the priest went in after him, and with him fourscore priests of the LORD, that were valiant men ... and said unto him, It appertaineth not unto thee, Uzziah, to burn incense unto the LORD, but to the priests. 2 Chronicles 26:
So God, who saw the whole thing, did what he had to do: he gave Uzziah leprosy. (He was out of small pox at the time.)
"Behold, he was leprous in his forehead ... because the LORD had smitten him. 2 Chronicles 26:20
And Uzziah had leprosy for the rest of his life.
And Uzziah the king was a leper unto the day of his death. 2 Chronicles 26:21
The Bible doesn't say that Uzziah died of leprosy. But since leprosy is often fatal when untreated, it is likely that he did.
So what do you think? We know that God gave Uzziah leprosy. But did he kill him?
Posted by Steve Wells at 3/10/2010 07:20:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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4 comments:
twillight said...
No. He just suffered torment for the rest of his life.
And even if he'd died of leprosy, that'd mean, biblegod is responsible for the death of his. Remember, that there was the all-sure way of cleansing-ritual to get rid of leprosy! (slaughter some animals, sprinkle blood all over the place, don't wash it down...)
Thu Mar 11, 12:05:00 AM 2010
busterggi said...
A slow death is still a death.
Count it.
Thu Mar 11, 04:27:00 AM 2010
Clint Burky said...
Leprosy is not always fatal, yes it is most of the time, but do we know how he eventually died, and it it was attributed to his disease? To be honest, this would be one that I think should be included in your next list you are doing of deaths / possible deaths potentially attributed to God.
Remember - you don't want to give people an excuse to discredit your work as innacurate. God has much more impressive slaughters on his resume anyhow :-)
Mon Mar 15, 07:08:00 AM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
It's a sad story, though; Uzziah got screwed out of a job.
Sun Mar 28, 04:17:00 PM 2010
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10 March 2010All God's Killings: Search the scriptures to find them all
Those who have been following along with me know that I'm nearing the end of God's killings, at least those that I've included on the list. I worry, though, that I've missed some and I'd like to make the list as complete as possible, giving God all the credit or blame that is due, depending on one's point of view.
So I'll be starting another series of posts on God's suspected killings, those killings in which God would be a "person of interest" based upon the evidence provided by the Bible.
And I'd like you all to help me with this. Search the scriptures to uncover the bodies in the Bible and find scriptural evidence for God's guilt or innocence. Then let me know in the comments or by email, so we can start an investigation. Let's not let any of these cases become cold.
I'd especially like help on this from believers (I know you're out there). It's your book and your God. So you should be interested in knowing whom he has killed and why. Once you are convinced that God was responsible for a particular killing, why not explain why the killing was justified in the comments or guest post?
Because when it comes to these cases, we are all believers, with the Bible our only witness and its words infallible (except when it contradicts itelf).
Posted by Steve Wells at 3/10/2010 12:16:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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13 comments:
Zerilos said...
Have you mentioned the fact that he killed his own son; Ananias and Sapphria; Judas (according to Acts); a heard of swine; Herod;
Wed Mar 10, 01:01:00 PM 2010
Steve Wells said...
All except Judas, Zerilos. I guess we should look into his death. Was it a suicide or did God make his bowels fall out?
Wed Mar 10, 01:09:00 PM 2010
teavee said...
It might be interesting to look at God saving lives rather than taking lives. He kept the Israelites alive in the desert with manna and water and protected them from others. But then their being kept alive allowed them and later generations to kill others. God could be considered indirectly responsible for all those that the Israelites killed without God's help. How often does God intervene to protect someone who would have been killed or disabled that later kills someone else? How often for someone who later does good?
Wed Mar 10, 02:41:00 PM 2010
twillight said...
I'm sorry that I can't help you Steve.
For the next 25 years or so I'll have my hobby: translating the Babylonian Talmud to hungarian.
I'm so Jelous on you guys, whose mother-language is english (or german, or french as I heared).
Wed Mar 10, 02:43:00 PM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Oh, I see, teavee. Start counting the number of people that God didn't kill in the Bible. That sounds like fun; I'll let you do it.
I wonder how many people Hitler didn't kill.
Wed Mar 10, 04:03:00 PM 2010
teavee said...
I was just throwing out an idea but gave a poor example. I was wondering if any specific verses talk about God protecting a specific person by supernatural intervention that would carry out future retribution that God destined them for.
The Israelites came to mind but are not a good example of what I was thinking of. I should not think all of them to be guilty because of the actions of some of them or of their offspring or descendents that they should not be helped by a deity if stranded in a desert.
Wed Mar 10, 05:23:00 PM 2010
teavee said...
How about Luke 13:4-5?
"Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." (Would an insurance company back then have considered it an "Act of God"?) The verses do not say God did not cause it, just that they were not the worst sinners (but supposedly still sinners to some extent). The verses seem to suggest that is still the way the unrepentant sinners perish, supposedly by God's arranging such "accidents".
Wed Mar 10, 08:01:00 PM 2010
Steve Wells said...
That's an interesting one, teavee.
Jesus seems to be saying that the tower didn't fall on the 18 people because they were especially sinful.
"Think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, Nay."
It was just an accident. Shit happens.
But then Jesus had to go on and say something really stupid.
"Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."
Everyone will perish. Repenting can't stop it anymore than it can stop a tower from falling.
But I don't see a killing for God here. Jesus says it just happened and God had nothing to do with it.
Wed Mar 10, 08:18:00 PM 2010
teavee said...
I agree it was likely just an accident for the 18 if they weren't too sinful, but to me the verses seem to suggest a little that it didn't have to be purely an accident.
There is also Luke 12:20 "But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee:..." suggesting that God decides/arranges when people die." and Psalms 139:16 (see NIV) saying all our days are pre-ordained before birth by God. But then that would cover all the deaths/murders in the Bible.
Wed Mar 10, 09:23:00 PM 2010
busterggi said...
Why there were more than two billion people that Hitler didn't kill!
The Vatican ought to make him a saint for that.
Thu Mar 11, 04:34:00 AM 2010
Brucker said...
I was going to suggest Lazarus' death in John 11 as a possibility, and while you haven't included it in your list, you seem from your comments on that chapter to consider it Jesus' fault. Jesus didn't kill Lazarus, but he allowed him to die when he could have healed him. What do you say?
Hmm... Of course, if you allow that, some other situations become problematic. If God is responsible for Jesus' death, then he might be considered somewhast culpable in the death of the two thieves crucified with him; after all, he theoretically could have saved them.
Tue Mar 16, 03:38:00 PM 2010
Steve Wells said...
You might be right about Lazarus, Brucker. God might have killed him so that Jesus could show off by bringing him back to life. But he might have just let him die a natural death, too. There's plenty of room for reasonable doubt about that one.
And I agree with you about the thieves, too. God should have saved them, and a decent God would have. But he didn't kill them, either. He just stood back and watched like he always does (unless he's busy killing people).
Tue Mar 16, 04:22:00 PM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
Oooh, this'll be a fun project... :-D
Sun Mar 28, 04:15:00 PM 2010
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09 March 2010Joash, the princes, and the army of Judah
Here's another boring one. Sorry about that.
It starts with the spirit of God coming on Zechariah, which, of course, makes him condemn everybody else.
The Spirit of God came upon Zechariah the son of Jehoiada the priest, which stood above the people, and said unto them, Thus saith God, Why transgress ye the commandments of the LORD, that ye cannot prosper? because ye have forsaken the LORD, he hath also forsaken you. 2 Chronicles 24.20
Then the people get pissed off at him, so they stone him (with stones).
And they conspired against him, and stoned him with stones at the commandment of the king [Joash] in the court of the house of the LORD. 24.21
As Zechariah died he asked God to avenge his death.
When he died, he said, The LORD look upon it, and require it. 24.22
So God sends "the host of Syria" to Judea to kill its princes.
At the end of the year … the host of Syria came up against him: and they came to Judah and Jerusalem, and destroyed all the princes of the people from among the people. 24.23
And defeat the "very great" Judean army, which the Syrians were able to do with "a small company of men" because the Lord delivered the army of Judah into their hand.
For the army of the Syrians came with a small company of men, and the LORD delivered a very great host into their hand, because they had forsaken the LORD God of their fathers. So they executed judgment against Joash. 24.24
In the process, Joash was wounded and then killed in his bed.
When they were departed from him, (for they left him in great diseases,) his own servants conspired against him for the blood of the sons of Jehoiada the priest, and slew him on his bed, and he died 24.25
The Bible doesn't say how many died, but since the Lord delivered "a very great host" into the hand of the Syrians, I'll say 10,000.
God's next killing: Amaziah
Posted by Steve Wells at 3/09/2010 08:50:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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twillight said...
The Bible here doesn't say any number, but from the previous stories we know hw large the judean army was: some 500,000 soldiers were in that.
So I think you seriously underrate this killing. I'd say 100,000 death for this.
Or maybe that was just an elite stirking team, and they killed 10 princes, and 10,000 from the judean army (10,010 in total), if you think the above is overestimating things.
Wed Mar 10, 12:05:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Thanks twillight and person0123452 for the suggestion. I've increased the number to 10,000.
(And I'm sorry for deleting your post, person0123452. There was a double post and somehow I deleted both of them.)
Wed Mar 10, 07:11:00 AM 2010
vp said...
@Steve Wells:
I have started enjoying the comments on this blog so much that I wonder whether you could add a comments RSS feed, in addition to the "Posts" feed. It should be possible on Blogger: here's an example of a blog with such a feed: it's on blogspot, not blogger, but I think they're the same service. Cheers!
Wed Mar 10, 10:07:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Thanks for the suggestion, vp. I tried to add a comments RSS feed, but I'm not sure if it worked. Give it a try and let me know what happens.
Wed Mar 10, 10:53:00 AM 2010
Person0123452 said...
Yeah, my internet went crazy, sorry about the double post. Heh.
Wed Mar 10, 03:43:00 PM 2010
vp said...
@Steve Wells:
The comment feed worketh great! Thank you!
Fri Mar 12, 08:01:00 AM 2010
Michael Ejercito said...
Joash had it coming to him.
It has not been covered in the The Brick Testament because that is an ongoing project.
Sat Mar 20, 10:47:00 AM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
Ongoing, yes, but it hasn't been updated in weeks... :-(
Sun Mar 28, 04:12:00 PM 2010
Michael Ejercito said...
There were some recent updates .
Mon Mar 29, 08:19:00 AM 2010
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08 March 2010ZJ hanging out with some friends
For those of you who don't have Ezekiel 23:20 and Leviticus 26:29 memorized:
For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses. Ezekiel 23:20
And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat. Leviticus 26:29
Posted by Steve Wells at 3/08/2010 05:14:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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Tom said...
Steve,
I'm not keen on the sign to the right of the picture. Them's fighten words; even if I do agree with the sentiment. No need to add that diversion to a really neat piece of biblical scripture.
Mon Mar 08, 05:49:00 PM 2010
Steve Wells said...
What sign is that, Tom? Jews stole the Land or No Turn on Red?
Mon Mar 08, 07:21:00 PM 2010
Me said...
I always thought that "flesh" translation of Ezekiel 23:20 was basically a modesty translation. A more literal one is "She loved them because they were hung like horses and came like a firehose", which is a significantly more awesome quote from the bible.
Tue Mar 09, 12:18:00 AM 2010
busterggi said...
I agree with Tom!
Especially about the time limits.
Tue Mar 09, 05:41:00 AM 2010
Interested said...
Okay, I'm in the dark on this one. Significance?
Tue Mar 09, 07:32:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Sorry, Interested, I should have explained it more.
ZJempty has a youtube channel that I subscribe to and she posted this picture of herself at an anti-gay protest. Ezekiel 23:20 is one of my favorite verses and it's fun to see Christians referring to Leviticus 26:29.
Tue Mar 09, 07:53:00 AM 2010
Interested said...
Thanks, now it makes sense..
Wed Mar 10, 06:08:00 AM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
Yeeeaaahh; it's all fun and games until somebody eats their own baby. :-|
Sun Mar 28, 04:09:00 PM 2010
nazani said...
How about doing a post on the fashion of the church members? Every time I see a photo of the Westboro goons, there's some woman with scarlet lipstick. In which Bible passage does God says he likes that?
Mon Apr 05, 07:21:00 AM 2010
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08 March 2010God killed Jehoram's sons
In Elijah's letter to Jehoram, he said that God would smite his children and his wives with a great plague.
Behold, with a great plague will the LORD smite thy people, and thy children, and thy wives. 2 Chronicles 21.14
From that, I expected God to send a disease to kill Jehoram's wives, children, and people. But he sent some Arabians instead.
Moreover the LORD stirred up against Jehoram the spirit of the Philistines, and of the Arabians, that were near the Ethiopians: And they came up into Judah, and brake into it, and carried away all the substance that was found in the king's house, and his sons also, and his wives; so that there was never a son left him, save Jehoahaz, the youngest of his sons. 21.16-17
So I figured the Arabians just enslaved Jehoram's wives and sons (Elijah, God, and the Bible say nothing about the daughters). But then, the next chapter starts with this:
The inhabitants of Jerusalem made Ahaziah his youngest son king in his stead: for the band of men that came with the Arabians to the camp had slain all the eldest. 22.1
Which means that the Arabians didn't just take his sons and wives away; they killed them. And since God was the one who stirred them up in the first place, he deserves credit for killing Jehoram's sons. (The verse doesn't say what happened to the wives, daughters, or the rest of the people of Judah.)
How many sons were killed by the Arabians? The text doesn't say, so I'll guess 3.
God's next killing: Ahaziah (of Judah)
Posted by Steve Wells at 3/08/2010 09:00:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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1 comment:
Matthew Blanchette said...
Maybe he was a time-traveller, Steve; that'd explain why his name changes halfway through the Bible...
Sun Mar 28, 04:07:00 PM 2010
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07 March 2010God made Jehoram's bowels fall out
Jehoram (of Judah) was not a very nice guy. When he became king he killed all of his brothers along with some Israelite princes.
Now when Jehoram was risen up to the kingdom of his father, he strengthened himself, and slew all his brethren with the sword, and divers also of the princes of Israel. 2 Chronicles 21.4
And then he did something that really pissed off God: he made all the people commit fornication.
Moreover he made high places in the mountains of Judah and caused the inhabitants of Jerusalem to commit fornication. 21.11
When the news got to Elijah, he sent Jehoram a letter telling him he was in big trouble with God. God will smite his children, wives, and all the people of Judah with a great plague.
Behold, with a great plague will the LORD smite thy people, and thy children, and thy wives. 21.14
And he will smite Jehoram with a disease of his bowels until his bowels fall out.
And thou shalt have great sickness by disease of thy bowels, until thy bowels fall out. 21.15
God first "stirred up" some people to carry away his sons and wives.
The LORD stirred up against Jehoram the spirit of the Philistines, and of the Arabians, that were near the Ethiopians: And they came up into Judah, and brake into it, and carried away his sons also, and his wives ... save Jehoahaz, the youngest of his sons. 21.16-17
And then God smote Jehoram in his bowels with an incurable disease.
After all this the LORD smote him in his bowels with an incurable disease. 21.18
For two years Jehoram suffered from the disease, until his bowels finally fell out.
After the end of two years, his bowels fell out by reason of his sickness: so he died of sore diseases. 21.19
God's next killing: Jehoram's sons
Posted by Steve Wells at 3/07/2010 09:56:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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5 comments:
twillight said...
Interresting thing that kiling a whole bunch of people, your own family even, isn't worth mentioning at the Highest Court, but telling one meaningless word insted of another (altering names of otherwise same beings) worth death penalty on you, and even on your entire family (who comited nothing at all).
Mon Mar 08, 03:06:00 AM 2010
busterggi said...
Considering how Yahweh persecutes the Israelites just as much as he does their enemies there doesn't seem to be any advantage in being Yahweh's chosen people.
Mon Mar 08, 06:10:00 AM 2010
twillight said...
@busterggi
There is always the promise that if you're Yahwe's people, one time you'll rule the others as slavemaster. (Or in the NC that after your death you can remain slave of Yahwe instead just perishing.)
Mon Mar 08, 09:10:00 AM 2010
skanksta said...
I just love Yahweh - he's so funny !
Thu Mar 11, 09:57:00 AM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
Yeah; so funny, you'll die laughing... :-|
Sun Mar 28, 04:05:00 PM 2010
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07 March 2010God is no smarter than Sarah Palin (He writes on his palm, too!)
Remember how Sarah Palin wrote crib notes on her hand at the Tea Party Convention?
Yeah well, she's not the only one. God did it, too!
Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands. Isaiah 49:16
And now she's quoting this verse to justify using her palm for a cheat sheet.
Here's what she said at a Ohio Right To Life fundraiser Friday night.
"If what was good enough for God, scribbling on the palm of his hand, it's good enough for me, for us,"
Of course the Right To Life folks loved it. They're all palm writers, too.
Posted by Steve Wells at 3/07/2010 08:56:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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2 comments:
busterggi said...
So the inventor of Post-its was smarter than god?
I'll buy that.
Mon Mar 08, 06:11:00 AM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
Arthur Fry and Spencer Silver, who are the co-inventors of the Post-it note, apparently are.
Who'da thunk it? :-P
Sun Mar 28, 04:03:00 PM 2010
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06 March 2010God killed one million Ethiopians
In the killing before last, God killed 500,000 Israelites. That was pretty impressive. But here, in the next chapter, God killed a million Ethiopians.
God got involved in this killing because he liked Asa, the king of Juda, so much. Asa did what was good and right in the eyes of the Lord by destroying the temples of other gods and forbidding their worship.
Asa did that which was good and right in the eyes of the LORD his God: For he took away the altars of the strange gods, and the high places, and brake down the images, and cut down the groves. 2 Chronicles 14.2-3
And he drove homosexuals out of the land.
And he took away the sodomites out of the land. 1 Kings 15.12
So when the Ethiopians attacked Judah while Asa was king, you know which side God was on.
There came out against them Zerah the Ethiopian with an host of a thousand thousand. 2 Chronicles 14.9
All Asa had to do was ask.
Asa cried unto the LORD his God, and said, LORD, it is nothing with thee to help, whether with many, or with them that have no power: help us, O LORD our God; for we rest on thee, and in thy name we go against this multitude. 2 Chronicles 14.11
And God killed all 1,000,000 Ethiopians, apparently all at once, in a single day.
So the LORD smote the Ethiopians ... they were destroyed before the LORD. 2 Chronicles 14.12-13
It was the largest, single, God-assisted slaughter in the Bible. (And according to McEvedy and Jones, it would have killed five times the entire Ethiopian population at the time.)
God's next killing: God forced “a great multitude” to kill each other
Posted by Steve Wells at 3/06/2010 09:38:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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twillight said...
Just a moment of your time:
according to the numbers presented, who are worse:
- the jews (1,000,000 killing in one day, many times that kind of thing, complete genocide against 6+ nations)
- or the nazis (not even close to the above numbers, no complete genocide succeeded ever from the planned 1)
Sun Mar 07, 01:24:00 AM 2010
TwoYaks said...
Given the events of the bible likely never happened, I would say the Nazis, who did in fact commit that genocide, are far worse.
Sun Mar 07, 11:10:00 AM 2010
twillight said...
Given the events of the bible are claimed to be true, and its believers consider it "the infallible words of God", therefor there is no distinction between the two for them, I say, think it through once more.
Sun Mar 07, 01:13:00 PM 2010
busterggi said...
And does the bible explain how the Ethiopians got to Judah?
I mean, didn't the Egyptians notice this massive army tromping through their kingdom?
Sun Mar 07, 05:11:00 PM 2010
Opus Croakus said...
Think if God had the technology and tools available to Hitler. Yikes!
I never could understand why the god of a bronze age text would limit himself to technologies of bronze age man. Swords? Chariots? Really?
Should God have used the weapons of modern man to do his smitin', I'm sure there would be not a living cell on the earth today.
Sorry to go off topic a bit. Just a thought.
Sun Mar 07, 08:08:00 PM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
So... apparently, God likes killing people, but not enough to kill a king who drives away some of his own people just because of their sexual orientation?
God is a dick.
Sun Mar 28, 04:01:00 PM 2010
Rod Martin, Jr. said...
Wow! I'm not going to bother with this book. If it can't get its facts straight on this one point, then what else is there not to believe? Perhaps the entire book is suspect.
"So the LORD smote the Ethiopians before Asa, and before Judah; and the Ethiopians fled" (2 Chronicles 14:12, KJV).
Killed a million? Very funny! Read the last phrase.
If there were a million to begin with (a thousand thousand Ethiopians), then who was left to do the fleeing? Re-do your math.
More importantly, God doesn't care about these Homo sapiens bodies. They are only tools to help rescue his children (the immortal spirit, within).
How many cars would you wreck to save your children? (If you're smart enough to understand this analogy, there may be hope for you, yet.)
Fri Jan 13, 02:21:00 AM 2012
lewiis barrah said...
God killed loads, Nazis killed loads, for similar reasons ie. not the right race, god, sexual orientation etc. both are pretty nasty f****rs. god destroyed 2 cities, Sodom and Gomorrah because they were all gay. Thats probably even more than a million.
Wed Feb 20, 08:53:00 AM 2013
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06 March 2010Jeroboam
After God killed 500,000 of Israelite soldiers, he killed their leader, king Jeroboam.
Neither did Jeroboam recover strength again in the days of Abijah: and the LORD struck him, and he died. 2 Chronicles 13.20
You see, God hated Jeroboam. To God, Jeroboam was the worst person who had ever lived.
Go, tell Jeroboam, Thus saith the LORD .... thou hast ... done evil above all that were before thee. 1 Kings 14.7-9
(Why did God hate Jeroboam so much? Because after he became king he made two golden calves, put them on altars at Bethel and Dan, and led the people in sacrifices to them. See 1 Kings 12.28)
God had already killed Jeroboam's son, and after God killed Jeroboam, he killed the rest of his family.
I'm not sure why. I guess it's all a part of God's family values.
This killing is a bit out of place chronologically. But I've decided to order God's killings according to the order that they occur in the Bible. It's hard to be sure of the correct chronology of mythical events.
God's next killing: a million Ethiopians
Posted by Steve Wells at 3/06/2010 07:40:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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6 comments:
busterggi said...
And what exactly did Jeraboam do that annoyed Yahweh so much?
Sun Mar 07, 05:12:00 PM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Oh, yeah. I should have explained that in the post,
Jeroboam made two golden calves, put them on altars in Bethel and Dan, and led the people in sacrifices to them. The Brick Testament tells the story here.
I'll add a note about the golden calves. Thanks busterggi.
Sun Mar 07, 08:20:00 PM 2010
busterggi said...
Well no wonder Yahweh was pissed off (probably against a wall)!
How could he compete with such powerful opponents as two statues?
It seems to me that for the supposed inventors of monotheism, the Israelites were always willing to worship anything or anyone for no particular reason at all.
Mon Mar 08, 06:14:00 AM 2010
vp said...
Seems a little unfair to Jeroboam. After all, Aaron created the original golden calf in Sinai and led the people in worship of it. Not only was he unpunished, his descendants got to be the priests in Jerusalem and to keep the best bits of everyone's sacrifice (see Lev. 7).
Mon Mar 08, 10:05:00 AM 2010
Robert said...
vp: good point ... And Aaron of all people should have known better right? He saw and participated first hand in more of God's miracles than just about any person in history. He was spokesperson for God over an extended period of time. But apparently that didn't impress Aaron much. He still wanted to worship a lump of gold and that did not make Yahweh angry enough to smite him or his family.
Yet Yahweh was angry enough to smite a bunch of foreigners who were merely ignorant of how to worship him. 2 Kings 17:24-28 This I'm sure is not a contradiction of character or inconsistency of punishments ... I just wonder how the apologists might enlighten me so I am not a fool to think that it is.
Anyone out there want to take a stab at it?
Mon Mar 08, 05:11:00 PM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
I think Yahweh just gets into pissy moods, sometimes; smitings fly, and people die.
Sun Mar 28, 03:58:00 PM 2010
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05 March 2010God killed a half million Israelite soldiers
Sometimes God has to kill a half million of his favorite people just to make a point of some kind. I'm not sure what the point was in this case, but that's beside the point, whatever it might have been.
Here's what happened.
There was a war between king Abijah of Judah and Jeroboam of Israel. Abijah had 400,000 "chosen men" and Jeroboam had 800,000 "mighty men of valor."
Abijah set the battle in array with an army of valiant men of war, even four hundred thousand chosen men: Jeroboam also set the battle in array against him with eight hundred thousand chosen men, being mighty men of valour. 2 Chronicles 13.3
Abijah stood on a hilltop and delivered a long, boring speech to all 1.2 million men. (He had a very loud voice.)
Abijah stood up upon mount Zemaraim, which is in mount Ephraim, and said, Hear me, thou Jeroboam, and all Israel; Ought ye not to know that the LORD God of Israel gave the kingdom over Israel to David for ever, even to him and to his sons by a covenant of salt?
...
...
...
And, behold, God himself is with us for our captain, and his priests with sounding trumpets to cry alarm against you. O children of Israel, fight ye not against the LORD God of your fathers; for ye shall not prosper. 13.4-12
When Abijah was done with his speech, Jeroboam's mighty men attacked from behind.
But Jeroboam caused an ambushment to come about behind them: so they were before Judah, and the ambushment was behind them. 13.13
But then the chosen men of Judah cried to God, blew some trumpets, and shouted all at once.
When Judah looked back, behold, the battle was before and behind: and they cried unto the LORD, and the priests sounded with the trumpets. Then the men of Judah gave a shout. 13.14-15a
And then God got involved, killing 500,000 Israelite soldiers.
As the men of Judah shouted … God smote Jeroboam and all Israel before Abijah and Judah. And the children of Israel fled before Judah: and God delivered them into their hand. And Abijah and his people slew them with a great slaughter: so there fell down slain of Israel five hundred thousand chosen men. 13.15b-17
But it was all for a good cause. I'm just not sure what the cause was.
God's next killing: Jeroboam
Posted by Steve Wells at 3/05/2010 09:08:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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vp said...
There was a war between king Abijah of Judah and Jeroboam of Israel. Abijah had 400,000 "chosen men" and Jeroboam had 800,000 "mighty men of valor."
Given that the entire population of Israel was less than 400,000 at this time, and that of Judah far smaller still, this is very impressive!
Fri Mar 05, 11:42:00 PM 2010
twillight said...
The cause was, according to the Bible, that the people in the Land of Israel went astray (i.e. commited strange worship), so they had to be put to death, according to the Law, as it is explained in Sanhedrin.
Sat Mar 06, 12:37:00 AM 2010
busterggi said...
So just how did Jeroboam's men not notice the mighty men of Judah waiting to ambush them?
I mean, they had supposedly all been hanging around listening to speeches together.
Unless the 400,000 mighty men were all hiding behind a tree or something.
Sat Mar 06, 07:50:00 AM 2010
skanksta said...
I'd love to know... believers - how do you explain that the ancient Israelites, in about 2000BC witnessed battles twice the size of Stalingrad ? casualties in one day greater than the entire American Civil War ? Fireballs more deadly than nuclear strikes on Hiroshima and Nagasaki ?
How do you square all these ridiculous numbers ?
He's some facts...
The bible claims that the ancient Israelites of 5,000 years ago(!) maintained an army FIVE TIMES larger than modern Great Britain, the fifth richest nation on earth in 2010, with the fourth highest military spending per GDP and a population of 60million ?!
Isn't this OBVIOUSLY a load of bollocks ?
What do you think when you read this, I just don't understand... ?
Sat Mar 06, 06:53:00 PM 2010
skanksta said...
I mean... looking at all these stoopid numbers....
How does a pre-industrial society of 5,000 years ago rival the modern United States - a military power with more power and pre-eminence than the great Empires of Spain, Britain, ancient Persia and Rome combined ?!!
What is your mental block that doesn't proceed to.... what a load of hilarious bollocks ?
Sat Mar 06, 07:01:00 PM 2010
Person0123452 said...
@skanksta: It's god's miracles ofc. God loves slaughter, so if he gives the Israelites and their enemies more men, then he has more people to kill. Win for god. Lose for the people he killed of course, but who cares about them, they're going to burn in hell because their leaders sacrificed the wrong thing accidentally.
Sun Mar 07, 07:19:00 PM 2010
Abeille said...
skanksta,
You suddenly brought to mind the theory of Alantis being an advanced civilization.
Maybe they were more populated than we are now, with higher tech weapons than we use now... and thats why this strikes us as impossible but are, in fact, very real.
Maybe Alantis is just the name of the Earth back when this ancient civilization ruled it and somehow, over the years, we've renamed it.
Next, we need to prove that the earth is really flat!
Sun Mar 07, 08:00:00 PM 2010
skanksta said...
belated thanks.
Thu Mar 11, 01:17:00 AM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
Wow; Abijah must've been the William Henry Harrison of Israelite kings...
(Harrison had the long inaugural address of any U.S. President; curiously, he also served the shortest term of office, dying one month after his inauguration.)
Sun Mar 28, 03:40:00 PM 2010
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04 March 2010Just another holy war
First Chronicles gets my vote for the most boring book ever written. Just try reading the first nine chapters some time. If you make it through, reading every word, you're probably the first person who ever has.
But hidden in the list of descendants of Reuben in chapter five, there's another one of God's killings, one that I'd missed before. I probably lost interest somewhere in the "These are the children of Abihail the son of Huri, the son of Jaroah, the son of Gilead, the son of Michael, the son of Jeshishai, the son of Jahdo, the son of Buz....."
So anyway, here's the story. I'm sorry it's so damned boring.
It all starts with 44,760 sons of Reuben, who were valiant men that could shoot bows and hack things to pieces with swords.
The sons of Reuben, and the Gadites, and half the tribe of Manasseh, of valiant men, men able to bear buckler and sword, and to shoot with bow, and skilful in war, were four and forty thousand seven hundred and threescore, that went out to the war. 1 Chronicles 5.18
All they needed was a war to keep them busy. And they found one.
They made war with the Hagarites, with Jetur, and Nephish, and Nodab. 5.19
While the sons of Reuben were fighting, they cried to God, so God decided to be on their side, delivering the Hagarites into their hand.
And the Hagarites were delivered into their hand, and all that were with them: for they cried to God in the battle, and he was intreated of them; because they put their trust in him. 5:20
And that pretty much did it. Once you have God on your side in a holy war that is "of God," killing people is a piece of cake.
For there fell down many slain, because the war was of God. 5.22
All that was left was to collect the booty.
They took away their cattle; of their camels fifty thousand, and of sheep two hundred and fifty thousand, and of asses two thousand, and of men an hundred thousand. 5.21
Which is pretty good, as booty goes. 50,000 camels, a quarter million sheep, 2000 asses, and 100,000 slaves.
But how many were killed in this holy war of God? It's a shame that God doesn't tell us, but with 100,000 slaves, I'd think the valiant sons of Reuben must have killed 50,000 or so. What with God on their side and all.
God's next killing: half a million Israelite soldiers
Posted by Steve Wells at 3/04/2010 03:57:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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48 comments:
Marcus said...
"For there fell down many slain, because the war was of God."
Let's hear an explanation of this from a Chrisitan.
Thu Mar 04, 06:23:00 PM 2010
twillight said...
a quater million sheeps, not camels.
And yes, even I read it like "name, name, name, stop, wind back, read what isn't a name, name, name, name" :o
Fri Mar 05, 02:55:00 AM 2010
skanksta said...
What a shame Yahweh/Steve's 100th killing wasn't a bit more or a humourous, colourful spectacular :( !
Great stuff as always from both of you...
Fri Mar 05, 04:23:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Thanks again, twillight.
But Shucks! A quarter million camels would have been so much more impressive.
Fri Mar 05, 06:48:00 AM 2010
Interested said...
I'm with Marcus, come on christian, explain this.
Fri Mar 05, 07:50:00 AM 2010
busterggi said...
What good did all the murder, plundering & rape do the Israelites? There are no accounts of them enjoying their victories.
But then, there is no archeological evidence that Israel was more than a jerkwater serial victim antway.
Fri Mar 05, 08:39:00 AM 2010
Jane said...
I am a Xian, but there is a caveat: I am not a literalist when it comes to the Bible. I do not consider it the inerrant word of God. While I do believe that there is much to be learned of God from the Bible, I believe there there is also much to be learned of people from the Bible.
Bart Ehrman, chair of the Department of Religious Studies at UNC Chapel Hill, talks about the Orthodox Corruption of Scripture. What he means is that from the beginning of the writing down of scripture there have been errors and corruptions. The texts are filled with corruptions that reflect the religious and political mindset of the time in which they were being copied.
So, for me, as I approach scripture I choose a hermeneutic of God is Love. As I read the stories I must decide if all elements are truly divine or simply the divination of a human through asking the question of whether the story exemplifies a loving response of something else. Yes, I realize that this is not a full-proof method, however, it does help explain some of the contradictory points.
In the end, I am as outraged as many of you by the folks who approach the scriptures from an inerrancy standpoint. They too use a hermeneutic, but it is one of a vengeful, jealous, and "just" God.
Love to hear your thoughts.
Fri Mar 05, 08:42:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Thanks for the comment, Jane. It's good to know that believers stop by now and then.
You say that you're "not a literalist when it comes to the Bible" and that you don't "consider it the inerrant word of God." Me neither.
But do you believe that any of the 100 killings that I've gone through so far happened? If so, which ones? And, of those that you think happened, do you think they were good killings? Are any of God's killings consistent with "a hermeneutic of God is Love?"
Fri Mar 05, 09:04:00 AM 2010
Jane said...
Steve,
I believe the killings happened, but I don't believe they were inspired by or mandated by God. I think the killings are a result of people's greed, distrust, you name it. I think that people use God to "justify" their actions. This is actually how Jewish scholars read the "not taking the name of the Lord in vain" commandment. It's not that one uses the name in swearing, but that one uses God to "justify" one's actions -- without any real thumbs up or down from God. I do not believe the killings were good. Killing is not consistent with a hermeneutic of God is Love. Which means, I also do not believe that God had a son born simply to use the child as a sacrifice. I believe that Jesus was killed at the hands of the Roman government. Jesus upset the status quo religious times, to be sure, but was not born to be a sacrificial killing.
I understand that my thinking is not common among Xians. I try to talk about how I come to believe these things as much as I can. I do not want to convert anyone, I just want those who have been hurt by Xian literalists to know that they were hurt by people, not God.
I look forward to a good discussion. Thank you for your respectful questions.
Fri Mar 05, 09:19:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Jane,
I suspect, then, that you don't believe that killings happened, at least not many of them.
Let's start with God's first killing, the flood. You don't believe that happened, do you?
Fri Mar 05, 09:43:00 AM 2010
Jane said...
Steve, as I said, I do believe the killings happened, but I don't believe they were the result of a warring, hate-filled, vengeful God.
I do believe the flood occurred. There is even some archaeological evidence to support it. Do I believe that it happened because God looked at humans and found them deplorable? No. I cannot believe in a God who gives free-will then punishes humans for exercising that free-will. I believe the flood was a meteorological event that was explained by using God; those who finally wrote down the story wanted to be sure that those who heard the story behaved in a prescribed manner and so built in the punishment portion.
Thanks for continuing to ask questions. I feel a bit vulnerable, but I do enjoy engaging in good dialogue.
Fri Mar 05, 09:50:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Jane,
So you believe there was a world-wide flood around 2400 BCE that covered Mount Everest and drowned every person alive at the time (along with the animals) except for Noah, his family, and whatever animals he took with him on the ark?
Fri Mar 05, 10:00:00 AM 2010
twillight said...
I think Jane had a point with the "taking God's name in vain", too bad she don't see the result of her statement - i.e.: there is no bibleGod, only humans making things up. Including all the stories of the Bible.
Fri Mar 05, 10:34:00 AM 2010
Jane said...
First I think it's important to understand what world-wide meant in the time of the story being written down, or even passed through oral tradition. World-wide was sort of where you could travel in a relatively short amount of time and/or the world one could see with eyes. It did not mean the world we now conceive of, meaning the entirety of the planet Earth. So, to answer your question, no I don't think the whole earth was covered and that every living creature except Noah, his family and the animals he had on board were saved. I think a flood happened in a relatively small area of the globe and devastated a population -- just as they do today. (Sort of like the Tsunami in 2004.
Fri Mar 05, 10:42:00 AM 2010
Jane said...
Twilight, please feel free to address me. I won't be offended.
I believe in an ineffable being, that I refer to as God. I believe that humans have not understood this ineffable being - thus the ineffable part. I believe humans have done many things and used this ineffable being to justify their actions.
These are beliefs, and I do not impose them on others. From my point of view, if I choose to live my life by "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and love your neighbor as yourself" I am certainly not bringing death, destruction, greed or other horrible things into the world. I strive to live a life that follows that edict, which by the way is mentioned in both the Hebrew Scriptures and the Xian Scriptures. Maybe I'm foolish, but there are worse ways for me to live.
Fri Mar 05, 10:53:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Jane,
Do you think there was a man named Noah who built an ark? If so, did God tell him to build it? Did Noah bring animals on board? Did God cause the flood? If so, did he do it to punish people?
Fri Mar 05, 10:57:00 AM 2010
Jane said...
Steve,
I stated in my original post that I'm not a literalist. I take the story as an allegory, a folktale -- used to teach some lesson. So, what many other Xians will believe to be "the truth" I find to be story. What I can conceive of is a story being passed down about a man who, after seeing the threat of a flood, used a boat to try and save his family and possibly his own livestock. I see this story being passed down orally and then finally written. I see the story being changed over time. I see the story being used as all folktales are used, as some moral teaching tool. This holds very near to the Jewish practice of Midrash. Jewish scholars believe that there are "holes" in the scripture so that we can ask questions. That is how I approach the scripture and my concept of God. God, for me, is found in the questions I ask about the holes.
I have previously stated that I cannot believe in a God who gives free-will and then punishes humans for using it, so, no, I do not believe that a flood was used as punishment.
Interesting sidebar -- there are some theologians who read the Genesis 6 - 8 story say that God becomes grieved by the devastation and that the rainbow is a sign to God, not to humans, to never destroy all things like that again. While this is midrashic, it also is a result of the JEDP documentary hypothesis of the authorship of the Pentateuch. There's no simple answer as to how this story became what it is today; what does not change is that it is a story, not a recounting of a literal or real event.
Fri Mar 05, 11:24:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
OK Jane. God didn't drown everyone on earth (along with the animals) to punish people. There may have been a flood, as there are now and then, but God had nothing to do with it. There was no killer; whatever might have happened, just happened.
So you don't believe that the first killing happened.
How about the second? Do you believe that God smashed and burned everyone to death in Sodom and Gomorrah?
Fri Mar 05, 11:37:00 AM 2010
Jane said...
Steve,
I don't mind a good spirited discussion, but I'm wondering if you might be able to summarize your questions with a more general approach. I have stated my beliefs in very broad terms -- non-literalist, midrashic, folktale, misconstrued and corrupted through history. I'm wondering if I will be asked to make a personal belief statement about each of the killings listed in your 100, which is actually longer than 100.
I appreciate that you are actually reading the Hebrew Scripture. It helps to have a discussion when both parties have read the same document.
Fri Mar 05, 11:52:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
I'm sorry, Jane. I'm not interested in "a more general approach."
You said, "I do believe the killings happened." But I don't believe that you believe that at all. I think you are just pretending to believe.
You don't believe the first killing happened (God didn't drown everyone except those in Noah's boat); you don't believe that God smashed and burned everyone in Sodom and Gomorrah; and you don't believe that Lot's wife was turned into a pillar of salt.
I have listed 111 killings by God in the Bible. Is there one of these that you believe he did?
If so, let me know.
Fri Mar 05, 12:18:00 PM 2010
twillight said...
@Jane, please feel free to address me. I won't be offended, even if you mistype my nick.
Second: what you mean by "ineffable" beings?
If you mean "supernatural", then sry to isappoint you, but if something exist, that's part f nature, so it is natural, so humans can understand it.
Or if you mean "miracelous", then sry, but no such thing ever existed. No witches, no unicorns, no dragons, no gods, or any other things your book of fairy-tales ever contained.
If you disagree, feel free to PROVE your claim. And no, an ancient story-book isn't proof on anything.
I'm also interrested on the process, which stories you think tells anything about your "god", and why only those stories, and if you have an objective (= valid) way to sort them out.
I'm also interrested why you drop out certain things, while not put everything under doubt.
Fri Mar 05, 12:20:00 PM 2010
Jane said...
Steve,
As I've stated, clearly I thought, I do not believe in a literal interpretation of the texts of the Bible.
As I explained, I believe there was a flood, I cannot speak to the extent to which all human and animal life was lost - there are no records. I also stated that I believe the flood to have been a meteorological event. Not punishment at the hands of God. I have been clear about this.
I have not given you my opinion on Sodom and Gomorrah. I will here though, no, I do not believe that it represents an historical event. I believe that it is a story.
As for the 111, a quite impressive list I might add, I do not believe that an ineffable being, or God, is responsible for those killings. Humans are responsible for those killings. Again, I will refer to my statement about "taking the Lord's name in vain" - humans have committed acts and then "blamed" them on God to justify the act or to gain support from others. The killings happened, but not because God dictated that they occur.
Is that more clear?
Fri Mar 05, 12:29:00 PM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Thanks Jane. And yes, that's clear enough. You and I agree on pretty much everything, as far as I can tell.
God didn't kill a single person, and the Bible is wrong when it says that he did.
Ineffable beings are a lot like imaginary ones, and they seldom kill anyone.
Fri Mar 05, 12:48:00 PM 2010
Jane said...
Twillight,
My apologies for my misspelling, but I did address you directly in my post to you, whereas you spoke about me in the third person -- all I meant to say is that you could address your comments to me rather than about me.
Ineffable is defined as being indescribable or indefinable. It has naught to do with supernatural or miraculous. Those would be my own personal feelings/beliefs. When addressing the notion of God I use the term ineffable because there is no concrete way to define or prove the existence or non-existence of such a being. Not having proof is not the same as disproving.
I explained in one of my early posts that I use the hermeneutic of God is Love to filter the stories of the Bible. I do not filter the stories for proof of the existence of God. The stories are filtered for my own edification - they help me in my living.
I have not, will not and am not asking you to believe the same as me. I am discussing my beliefs and opinions, as are we all.
Would you clarify what you believe I'm "dropping out?" I've only addressed the specific stories Steve asked me about, so I'm confused as to what I've left out.
I look forward to further discussions.
Fri Mar 05, 01:46:00 PM 2010
Jane said...
Steve,
I'm unclear on what your purpose with your questions was. It felt as if I was asked to answer the same questions several times, with my answer not changing from one time to the next. Did you think I was a "troll"? I am not.
I stumbled upon your blog and found it really very interesting. I recently attended a Stephen Prothero lecture, wherein he spoke of the religious illiteracy of Americans. I find your blog to be very literate in terms of religion. I enjoy that. As I said, I enjoy a good, spirited discussion.
I think we do agree on much when it comes to the authenticity of the Bible.
Fri Mar 05, 01:58:00 PM 2010
Steve Wells said...
No, Jane, I don't think you're a troll. But you're not a Bible believer, either, which is what we need around here.
Fri Mar 05, 02:29:00 PM 2010
Jane said...
You're right, I'm a Xian and a Bible reader, but not a Bible believer. Sorry. I hope it's okay if I still hang out and partake in discussions. I find this very interesting.
Fri Mar 05, 02:46:00 PM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Jane,
I didn't mean to make you feel unwelcome. I think your views are interesting. You're not a Bible believer, yet you base your beliefs on the Bible. I'm not sure how that works, but I guess you think it does.
I'd just like Bible believers to explain why each of God's killings was a good thing. The Bible God is proud of his killings; why are Bible believers so ashamed of them?
Fri Mar 05, 03:03:00 PM 2010
Jane said...
Steve,
I spent 10 years in a Pentecostal/Evangelical church. I understand some of their thinking, but quite honestly, the cognitive dissonance is why I'm not there anymore. I can answer some questions the way I was taught to answer them, but the answers sound hollow because I don't believe it.
I think the best way to describe my reading of the Bible is almost like a Zen Buddhist interacts with the Tao. It is a book of teaching through allegory, analogy, parable, and folktale. There are some moral imperatives within those stories. It's a practice that takes a life-time.
Fri Mar 05, 03:12:00 PM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Jane,
You say, "there are some moral imperatives within those stories."
Could you explain some of them for us? Take one of God's killings and find the "moral imperative" that's within.
For example, in #25, Phinehas threw a spear though a mixed-race couple, and God liked it so much that he stopped killing everyone in a plague (but not before 24,000 were killed).
What was the moral imperative of that killing?
Or how about when David bought his first wife with 200 Philistine foreskins? (1 Sam.18:25-27) Was there some kind of moral imperative in that story?
It would be great if you would go through all 111 of God's killings and reveal the moral imperative in each.
Fri Mar 05, 03:36:00 PM 2010
Jane said...
Steve,
I'm feeling a little uncomfortable again. The questions are all focused on the 111 killings. I thought that I had already stated I did not believe those to be by a directive from God, but rather humans, or humans attempt to explain some phenomenon.
I do not believe that there are moral imperatives to the 111 killings. I could maybe tell you what the pentecostals would say, if that would be of interest -- although I don't believe it myself.
Fri Mar 05, 04:04:00 PM 2010
Steve Wells said...
That's good, Jane. You should be feeling uncomfortable.
When you said, "There are some moral imperatives within those stories," you were talking about Bible stories, weren't you? And the story about how David bought his first wife is a Bible story, isn't it?
Are there some Bible stories with moral imperatives and others that are just too disgusting to even think about? How do you decide which are which?
Fri Mar 05, 04:22:00 PM 2010
Jane said...
Steve,
Why should I feel uncomfortable? I don't mind discourse, but I will not be put on the defensive.
I have not proselytized; I have stated very clearly that this is my opinion. I have stated very clearly the hermeneutic I use toward scripture. I am somewhat befuddled as to why I am asked the same questions again and again. I have stated very clearly that I do not believe the Bible to be the inerrant word of God. I have stated that I do not believe in a literal translation of the Bible. I am confused as to what you want.
Again, the treatment feels more like a trap than a true discussion.
Fri Mar 05, 04:44:00 PM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Well, Jane, you are on the defensive. You may not like it, but that's the way it is.
And you're on the defensive because you keep saying things that you can't defend. So either defend the things you say or stop saying them.
You said that Bible stories, though untrue, have moral imperatives within them. So even though you don't believe that David bought his first wife with 200 Philistine foreskins, for example, you believe there is a moral imperative in the story itself.
So I'd like you to use your hermeneutic skills to reveal the deep moral imperative within that story. Is that too much to ask?
Fri Mar 05, 05:07:00 PM 2010
twillight said...
@Jane, I'm sorry to tell you this, but is something is not provable to exist, is by definition proved to be non-existant.
I'm also sorry to take notion, that you still mistyped my nick. It has a reason it isn't started with a capital letter, and as it is a "name", and not a "title", you have to keep it as it is, even at the beggining of a sentence.
As for your question about "droppin out": You dropped out certain elements of stories in the book you originate your belief from (i.e.: that God is told to be responsible for those killings).
You confessed you don't have any base to believe in it, so I ask you: why you believe in it at all. Why don't yu start to be on the honest way not pointing to a bronz-age tribesmen's book, and say instead what you really believe in? Why do you propagate something obviously unworthy to believe in, more so: something you yourself said you don't believe in at all? (Worse: somethng that is proven harmful.)
Sat Mar 06, 12:46:00 AM 2010
cowmonger said...
Wow, Steve.... This coming from an atheist, you're really coming off as a complete douche. You REALLY can't understand what she's saying?
Sat Mar 06, 02:53:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
I understand what she's saying, cowmonger. And I responded honestly to it. Is there something wrong with that?
Sat Mar 06, 06:48:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Hey cowmonger,
On second thought, maybe I didn't REALLY understand what Jane was saying. Maybe you can explain it to me. (I'll try not to be a complete douche to you.)
Oh, and did you (as an atheist, of course) agree with her?
Sat Mar 06, 09:38:00 AM 2010
Abeille said...
While I didn't think you came off as a "douche," I do think you came off a little aggressive.
It seems like you might be misunderstanding Jane.
It seems as though she has decided that whenever God is depicted as cruel or bloodthristy, that it isn't actually God, but someone using the name God in vain. She doesn't draw moral imperatives from all the stories; just some. (The some where God matches up with her mental image of what a God of love would be.)
I think she understands the "scary god" stories to be sort of like the boogey man stories of today; behave or something drastically unfair will happen to you. Or the masturbation will make you go blind/ give you hairy palms. The ghost stories that warn children not to walk away by themselves in the middle of the night.
I think the more interesting line of questioning would be how she came to believe that God is a God of love. Or why is it she believes in God in the first place, since she doesn't use the bible as proof of God's existance.
Sat Mar 06, 10:39:00 AM 2010
Steve Wells said...
I agree, Abielle. I was a little aggressive. Maybe even more than a little.
And I think you've summarized Jane's position (along with that of most other moderate Christians) very well. The problem that I have with that is this: that's not what they actually say.
They start off saying that they believe in the Bible, that it's a good book (THE good book, even), and that they base their beliefs on it.
Then when they are confronted (by us overly aggressive types) with what is actually in the Bible, they say, well, I believe that that bad stuff happened (like the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, plagues of Egypt, etc.), but God wasn't responsible for it. People were, and they blamed it on God.
When it's pointed out that the stories in the Bible never happened, they say, Yeah, that's true, but the stories have important moral teachings associated with them and that's why God put them in the Bible.
When they're asked what important moral teaching a particular story has, they say well, I'm more comfortable talking about generalities.
Which leads back them back to saying that the Bible is a good book that was inspired by God and that they base all their beliefs on its teachings. (Pay no attention to what it actually says -- or you're being a complete douche.)
I don't want to scare believers away, but I'm not going to pretend to agree with them either.
Sat Mar 06, 11:29:00 AM 2010
skanksta said...
Wow - this is the belated 100th killing birthday that both Steve and Yahweh deserved !
@Jane - You are an absolute diamond for coming on here and explaining your faith in this stuff!
What I don't understand, (and what I think Steve and other atheists are thinking - I certainly am), is..
once you have accepted - as you clearly have - that the bible is plainly too absurd to be literally true, HOW DO YOU THEN FAIL TO NOTICE that it almost certainly just another primitive creation myth - as practiced/believed by every human society in the known history of our species ?
Where is the logic in assuming that THIS religious creation myth (your one!) is actually true and transcendently devine, when it's obviously just backward bigotry ??
Why isn't it painfully obvious to you that this is barbaric nonsense made up by primitive humans ?
I genuinely want to know your response to this - no point scoring or anything like that...
thanks.
Sat Mar 06, 06:31:00 PM 2010
Abeille said...
Well, she did state that shes a bible 'reader' and not a bible 'believer.'
I was under the impression that she wasn't a "normal" christian, in that regard. She doesn't believe the bible is inerrant.
She doesn't jump through the same mental gymnastics that most christians do to justify everything. Instead of "god having a plan" and the ever popular "no questioning god" approach, she says that were probably just boogey-man stories.
She stated, too, that she doesn't use the bible for proof of the existence of God.
(So again, where does she get her proof, I wonder.)
I guess I just didn't notice her being inconsistent.
Sat Mar 06, 06:51:00 PM 2010
Matt said...
@Jane
Hope you haven't been scared off by some of the regulars forgetting to reset Phasers to 'stun' ;-)
I've just spent the last few weeks reading this blog from start to finish, including comments, so I can see why the Veterans might go in boot-first out of habit - some of the hand to hand combat against Jason and co in the trenches left me scarred and I was just an observer...
I am really curious to understand if you find other religious writings useful? You mentioned the Tao - any reason why you couldn't interchange that with the bible in you belief system?
Also you mention Jesus, do you believe he was literally the son of god/an aspect of god or was he human full-stop?
@Steve, sconnor et al
you guys have nothing but my admiration for the effort you are putting into helping open people's eyes - but I fear that you have done such a good job that this Blog has been blacklisted by bible believers, otherwise where are they?
Sun Mar 07, 06:20:00 AM 2010
Person0123452 said...
The issue I take with Jane's position is that she says she believes in the god of the bible, but that she doesn't believe the bible. So why believe in the god? Because you want to? This does not seem to me to be a logical way of doing things. You pick and choose what you want to believe. Why don't you believe in the hindu gods for instance? Why do you love Yahweh with all your heart? Why not Vishnu? Or Mars? Or The Flying Spaghetti Monster? If the bible just a load of man made BS?
Sun Mar 07, 07:11:00 PM 2010
Abeille said...
I love the flying Spaghetti Monster.
May his noodly goodness touch your life.
rAmen!
Sun Mar 07, 08:02:00 PM 2010
Matt S said...
I feel like this thread via Jane's comments sounds like Armstrong/Eagleton. If only everyone could understand their complex and nuanced theology and not worship so simplistically. if only every Christian should spend the major man-hours figuring out what happened in the translation and what rabbis think!
Thu Mar 11, 06:42:00 AM 2010
Matt S said...
As I finish this thread, it seems like Jane is me four years ago before I came to college. Super liberal catholic, hardly took the book seriously but still believed. Then I went through the paces of arguments that were just offered and guess what? God is gone!
After what some might call a "spiritual" experience I've renewed my interest in the general topic of spirituality (mostly trending towards the scientific study of it mixed with reading these atheist blogs and buddhism/taoism) and I have to agree with someone who posted earlier that the Tao is a much better system (and more playful/honest about its contradictions!) but no system is perfect.
Thu Mar 11, 06:53:00 AM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
Matt S, I've had the same experience; only in high school, and mostly because I'd devoured Bible stories beforehand.
I'm no longer so spiritual, but I have contributed to the tales of the Flying Spaghetti Monster: http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster
;-)
Also, your last post on here was on my birthday; coincidence?
Sun Mar 28, 03:32:00 PM 2010
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02 March 2010God caused king Sennacherib to be killed by his sons
Poor king Hezekiah was upset, so upset, in fact, that he "rent his clothes."
And it came to pass, when king Hezekiah heard it, that he rent his clothes. 2 Kings 19.1, Isaiah 37.1
You see, Hezekiah had just heard the commanding officer (Rabshakeh) of the Assyrian army say that Hezekiah and his people would soon be "eating their own dung and drinking their own piss."
But Rabshakeh said unto them, Hath my master sent me to thy master, and to thee, to speak these words? hath he not sent me to the men which sit on the wall, that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own piss with you? 2 Kings 18.27, Isaiah 36.12
So Hezekiah, who didn't much like eating dung or drinking piss, sent a message to Isaiah, asking him what he should do about it. Isaiah told him not to worry. God would put a spirit (or "a blast" in the KJV) in the king of Assyria (Sennacherib) so that he will "hear a rumor" to return to his home in Ninevah. Then God will cause him to be killed with the sword.
Behold, I will send a blast upon him, and he shall hear a rumour, and shall return to his own land; and I will cause him to fall by the sword in his own land. 2 Kings 19.7, Isaiah 37.7
And that's what happened. Sennacherib returned to Ninevah and was killed by his sons while he was in church praying.
And it came to pass, as he was worshipping in the house of Nisroch his god, that Adrammelech and Sharezer his sons smote him with the sword. 2 Kings 19.37, Isaiah 37.38
But then, he was praying to the wrong God so he deserved it.
God's next killing: Josiah killed all the priests of the high places
Posted by Steve Wells at 3/02/2010 01:12:00 PM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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6 comments:
Geds said...
Y'know what's really impressive about that? Apparently Yahweh was so good at distracting Sennacherib that two decades passed between him leaving Jerusalem and him getting killed by his sons...
Siege: 701 BCE. Death: 681 BCE.
Tue Mar 02, 01:40:00 PM 2010
skanksta said...
@ Geds - really ? tell more.
@ Steve and Yahweh - I think we need to do something special to mark your joint 100th killing birthday later this week.
I was thinking of sacrificing a first born male goat without any defects for you both, but I'm not exactly sure how to go about it.
Any ideas/requests/instructions ?
Tue Mar 02, 11:43:00 PM 2010
Abeille said...
http://www.wcg.org/images/b7/_0324122917_035.jpg
Wed Mar 03, 10:37:00 AM 2010
Geds said...
@ Geds - really ? tell more.
Um, that's really all there is. Sennacherib hit Judah around 701 BCE. He knocked a city or two over and did lay siege to Jerusalem. But he had to go deal with other stuff before Jerusalem gave up.
The rest of his reign was spent fighting in other parts of his realm. Then in 681 he was assassinated in a move that had absolutely nothing to do with his involvement in Jerusalem.
So, basically, god's vengeance is like Kramer's from that one episode of Seinfeld where he removed the anti-dessicant packets from the coats. Twenty years from now those coats are gonna dry right up.
Fri Mar 05, 11:32:00 AM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
Wow; chronology is even screwed up in the Old Testament!
Somebody (wink, wink) needs to compile a list of all the historical errors in the Bible...
Sun Mar 28, 03:19:00 PM 2010
Danny said...
Why do people rent their clothes in the Bible?
Because they can't afford to buy them.)
Funny thing about it. In the spanish version (I'm a native spanish speaker ) it says that he tore his clothes apart.
Fri Apr 16, 08:52:00 AM 2010
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02 March 2010An angel killed 185,000 sleeping soldiers, "and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead."
Well, the title pretty much says it all, since it all happens place in a single verse (that is repeated twice in the Bible).
185,000 sleeping Assyrian soldiers were killed by an angel of the Lord. And when they woke up the next morning "behold, they were all dead."
The angel of the LORD went out, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians an hundred fourscore and five thousand: and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses. 2 Kings 19.35, Isaiah 37.36
They probably all woke up and said in unison (as is customary in the Bible), "Shucks, I'm dead."
God's next killing: God caused King Sennacherib to be killed by his sons
Posted by Steve Wells at 3/02/2010 10:53:00 AM Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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Dan said...
Technically, that would make them zombies, wouldn't it?
Tue Mar 02, 11:06:00 AM 2010
twillight said...
Have yoiu ever thought how angles look like?
Their face shines with divine glory, but their wings are tipped with blood...
Tue Mar 02, 01:28:00 PM 2010
skanksta said...
cool !
Tue Mar 02, 04:17:00 PM 2010
Marcus said...
This is why the Bible is an interesting book.
Incest, murder, war, plagues, explosions, acid trip prophesies, pointless ramblings, dung eating, baby dashing, and on top of all that, zombies!
Tue Mar 02, 09:49:00 PM 2010
Steve Wells said...
Yeah, you're right, Marcus. The Bible is an interesting book. I wonder why few believers have actually read it.
Maybe that's because it's hard to believe in the Bible once you've read it.
Tue Mar 02, 10:08:00 PM 2010
Matthew Blanchette said...
This makes me think of the bit in Scary Movie 3, where two guys talk about the whole concept of "waking up dead":
Mahalik: I heard Jamal from 90th street watched that tape last week, and this mornin', he woke up dead!
CJ: How the hell do you wake up dead?
Mahalik: 'Cause you're alive when you go to sleep.
CJ: So you're telling me you can go to bed dead, and wake up alive?
Mahalik: You can't go to bed dead! That shit would've been redundant.
CJ: No, it wouldn't, 'cause you can go to bed and not be dead, and you can die and not be in the bed.
Mahalik: But you are in the bed; that's how you wake up dead in the first place, fool!
CJ: Damn! That's some quantum shit right there, man! You should be teaching classes!
Sun Mar 28, 03:02:00 PM 2010
Christian Henry said...
Hmm, my translation says "When the people got up the next morning - there were all the dead bodies!"
That the Assyrian army was cut down there is not just written in the Bible, but recorded by the Greeks also- although they give no details.
Sun May 23, 07:25:00 AM 2010
Mr. Page said...
Well...it's obvious to the world that Steve Wells is not born-again.
I Corinthians 1:8, "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."
Just saying.
Thu Aug 23, 06:30:00 PM 2012
Dr.GohstMac said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Wed Oct 17, 11:21:00 PM 2012
Dr.GohstMac said...
Y'know the whole atheistic argument, on the evil of God, is pretty simple to defeat.
In the form of a question. One which largely makes this argument as well as this book, moot and a waste of time.
The difference between God and You, is the difference between A painting and the painter.
If you want to change the painting, you paint over a few lines here, add a few new ones there, and you got an improved painting.
if you don't like it, you paint over the whole thing and start again, or scrap it and start with a fresh canvas.
Are you then a murderer? should you be held accountable for all the doodles you threw away, drawings you erased?
Not to mention, you're arguing based on your perception of evil. which is an inside biased view. not to mention when compared to a being that knows all, can do all and is everywhere, is all.. would that be a suffcient perception on which to judge? I mean even by our own standards it's flawed and incomplete.
We need things to help us define it, like religion and politics, our judicial system, logic and philosophy.
It's a major fallacy inherent in all arguments like this.
for people who brand themselves free thinkers, they're ironically still chained and held captive in a dualistic mindset. they just changed jailers.
point is, God is not a man, or human for that matter. Thus he cannot be judged as one. Any attempt to do so, would result in a reduction of His Being in either whole or part, toward that of a man, making any judgement, and the arguments it is based in, moot.
His assertion that believers ignore these verses, is invalid, and a gross generalization.
you learn of some of these killings in sunday school. I remember hearing the story of the killing of every first born son, in egypt at somewhere between ages 6 and 10.
a lot of the ones I learned about I learned before I was of legal age.
some, like the one where the guy grabs The Ark of the Covenant to stop it from falling off the cart into the mud, when the oxen stumble, (God smites him for touching The Ark of The Covenant)
seemed kinda sucky. But Y'know I'm not God so in the end no matter how long one wrestles, in the end, you gotta submit to that realization, and that speculating, while good mental exercise, is just speculation in the end.
As a funny aside,
I remember in a forum once when someone had a large rant displaying the supposed "evils" of God, and asking "Why?", and "How can He do this?",
A regular who was known for being a follower of Judaism replied,
"Why,because Our God is a Rockstar of course."
Wed Oct 17, 11:27:00 PM 2012
Big O said...
Even a moron knows not everyone in a military encampment is a soldier.
There are many support personnel who do not engage in combat. Therefore it is completely accurate to say that when the people (Non-military) personnel got up the soldiers were all dead.
Tue Dec 25, 09:35:00 PM 2012
Big O said...
Even a moron would know not everyone in a military camp is a soldier so it is entirely accurate to say when the people (aka-non combat support personnel) got up the soldiers were all dead.
Tue Dec 25, 09:38:00 PM 2012
Martin White said...
The Bible did not say they all were sleeping. An army always has guards that watch as they others sleep. If you don't believe me, try sneaking around on a military base at night. I bet you'll find yourself at the business end of an assault rifle.
Tue Aug 06, 11:12:00 PM 2013
Paradoctor said...
@ Dr. GohstMac: the atheist argument isn't that God is evil, but that God is nonexistent; the evil is in taking the fiction as real. If God is a fictional character, then wicked deeds attributed to God certainly do reflect badly upon the writers who wrote the tale, and the readers who believe it.
Sun Aug 18, 04:04:00 PM 2013
Paradoctor said...
"When they woke up, they were all dead"?!
Who edits this stuff?
Sun Aug 18, 04:10:00 PM 2013
Brad Watson, Miami said...
Steve Wells (DwindlingInUnbelief.blogspot.com) ,
You're guilty of a really poor edit. Why? So as to use false information to promote your false belief that their is no GOD(7_4), that there was no appearance of God-incarnate (Jesus[74=J10+E5+S19+U21+S19] son of Joseph), and that the Christ doesn't return to "judge everyone according(74) to their actions". Atheists believe in randomness, although chaos theory states, "There is only an appearance of randomness, everything is connect(74)ed, and there are underlying patterns." Atheists believe that there is no afterlife although, science has now proven reincarnation. The law of karma is as real as the law of gravity. Therefore... By the power(77) vested in me by GOD as His Christ(77=C3+H8+R18+I9+S19+T20), I hereby rule that 12/27/13 is your Judgment Day: you FAIL F. Sentence: bad luck for the rest of your life, then 74 years reincarnated as non-human just for your sins on this post (you have many more). When you are born-again as human, it will be under hellish circumstances. Note: you can repent, take this post down and any others like it, do many hours of verifiable community service, and then petition this court for a retrial. GOD & His Christ are just & forgiving. However, 7.4 years of your sentence is non-commutable and any contempt-of-court will receive an increased sentence. I strongly recommend that you respect this judgment. - Brad(25) Watson(77), Miami - GOD's Judge of All(25) Humanity. c.c. http://7seals.yuku.com
Fri Dec 27, 05:39:00 AM 2013
Big O said...
Have you ever seen an army without civilian, non combat personnel? Ignore the obvious to your own peril. The soldiers were all slain but the non combat support personel woke up to find them all dead.
Wed Feb 19, 09:08:00 AM 2014
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