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"Phinehas ... thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly. So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel." Numbers 25:1-13

One of the Israelite men brings home a foreign woman. When Phinehas sees the happy couple, he throws a spear "through the man .. and the woman through her belly." This act pleases God so much that "the plague was stayed from the children of Israel." But not before 24,000 had died.


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"Kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." Numbers 31:1-54

Under God's direction, Moses' army defeats the Midianites. They kill all the adult males, but take the women and children captive. When Moses learns that they let some live, he angrily says: "Have you saved all the women alive? Kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."


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"I have a message from God unto thee." Judges 3:15-22

Ehud delivers a "message from God" to the king of Moab: a knife thrust so deeply into the king's belly that it could not be extracted, "and the dirt came out."


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"Then Jael Heber's wife took a nail of the tent, and took an hammer in her hand, and went softly unto him, and smote the nail into his temples, and fastened it into the ground." Judges 4:17-23

Jael offers food and shelter to a traveler (Sisera, Jabin's captain), saying "turn in my Lord ... fear not." Then after giving him a glass of milk and tucking him in, she drives a tent stake through his head.


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"As a dog lappeth" Judges 7:4-7

God picks the men to fight in Gideon's army by the way they drink water. Only those that lap water with their tongues, "as a dog lappeth," shall fight in Gideon's Holy War.


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"At the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed." Judges 11:29-39

Jephthah sacrifices his daughter to God.


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"Samson went and caught three hundred foxes." Judges 15:4-5

Samson catches 300 foxes, ties their tails together, and sets them on fire.


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"Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you." Judges 19:22-30

After taking in a traveling Levite, the host offers his virgin daughter and his guest's concubine to a mob of perverts (who want to have sex with his guest). The mob refuses the daughter, but accepts the concubine and they "abuse her all night." The next morning she crawls back to the doorstep and dies. The Levite puts her dead body on an ass and takes it home. Then he chops the body up into twelve pieces and sends a piece to each of the twelve tribes of Israel.


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"And they had emerods in their secret parts." 1 Samuel 5:6-12

God smites the people of Ashdod with hemorrhoids "in their secret parts."


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"Thus saith the LORD of hosts ... slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." 1 Samuel 15:2-3

God orders Saul to kill all of the Amalekites: men, women, infants, sucklings, ox, sheep, camels, and asses. Why? Because God remembers what Amalek did hundreds of years ago.


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"And David brought their foreskins, and they gave them in full tale to the king, that he might be the king's son in law. And Saul gave him Michal his daughter to wife." 1 Samuel 18:25-27

David buys his first wife with 200 Philistine foreskins.


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"Absalom went into his father's concubines in the sight of all Israel." 2 Samuel 16:21-22

Because David caused people to blaspheme, God had David's concubines publicly raped by his son, Absalom.


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"The child also that is born unto thee shall surely die." 2 Samuel 12:13-18

To punish David for having Uriah killed and causing others to blaspheme, God kills Bathsheba's baby boy.


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"Being stronger than she, forced her, and lay with her." 2 Samuel 13:14
David's son rapes David's daughter.


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"So the LORD sent a pestilence upon Israel ... and there died of the people ... seventy thousand men." 2 Samuel 24:1-15

Because of David's census (which God inspired), God killed 70,000 men (and probably around 200,000 women and children).


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"And the damsel was very fair, and cherished the king, and ministered to him: but the king knew her not." 1 Kings 1:1-4

Poor old king David could get no heat. So they searched throughout the kingdom for a beautiful virgin. They found one (Abishag), and she "cherished the king, and ministered to him," but he still couldn't get any heat.


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"Go up thou bald head." 2 Kings 2:23-24
God sends two bears to rip up 42 little children for making fun of Elisha's bald head.


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"Son of man, behold I take away from thee the dire of thine eyes ... So ... my wife died; and I did in the morning as I was commanded." Ezekiel 24:16-17
God kills Ezekiel's wife and tells him not to mourn her.


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 "The whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters." Matthew 8:28-34
The devils ask Jesus to cast them into a herd of pigs. He does, and the poor pigs run off into the sea and drown.


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"For the time of figs was not yet." Mark 11:13

Jesus curses a fig tree for not having fruit (even though it was not the right season for figs).


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"But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." Luke 19:11-27

Jesus explains in a parable that those who refuse to submit to him will be killed while he watches.


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"Behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out. Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost." Acts 5:1-10

Peter scares Ananias and his wife to death for not giving the church all of the money that they made when selling their land.


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"The hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind." Acts 13:8-11

Paul and the Holy Ghost make Elymas (the sorcerer) blind.


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"The angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost." Acts 12:23

The "angel of the Lord" killed Herod by having him "eaten of worms" because "he gave not God the glory."
Posted by Steve Wells at 1/20/2014 02:00:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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5 comments:
 Stephen said...
This makes me wish my kids were young so I could read them these great stories... probably at bedtime.
My grandfather gave me "The Junior Bible" when I was one year old; all the stories are pretty much cleaned up... and boring, as I thought when I was young.
Steve Weeks
Mon Jan 20, 07:33:00 PM 2014 
 bob said...
Steve, how dumb can you get and still be breathing?
Your 'takes' or 'interpretations' on the "Bible stories" are quite obviously false, and have nothing to do with the original intended meaning.

Tue Jan 21, 04:40:00 AM 2014 
 Stephen said...
What's your "take" on... oh, how about #6 so you don't have to type all day? How would you clean this one up for the kiddies?
Steve Weeks
Tue Jan 21, 07:22:00 AM 2014 
 The Collectors Hub said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Sun Jan 26, 05:12:00 AM 2014 
 Stephen said...
Bob? Is that you? Did you have a "G-rated" interpretation of Lot and his ... "relationship" with his daughters? Please don't delete it!
Steve Weeks
Sun Jan 26, 10:47:00 AM 2014 
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 18 January 2014Mosiah 27: A visit from God's angel
The unbelievers were not behaving themselves. Apparently they were persecuting the believers so badly that Mosiah had to consult with his priests and then make a proclamation.
And now it came to pass that the persecutions which were inflicted on the church by the unbelievers became so great that the church began to murmur, and complain to their leaders concerning the matter; and they did complain to Alma. And Alma laid the case before their king, Mosiah. And Mosiah consulted with his priests. 27.1
And it came to pass that king Mosiah sent a proclamation throughout the land round about that there should not any unbeliever persecute any of those who belonged to the church of God. 27.2
There was also a "strict commandment" throughout the churches that there should be equality among all men, and that there shouldn't be any persecutions among the members of the church. While this is a nice thought, you wouldn't think that this would be necessary among the church members. Weren't they behaving themselves already? In any event, the commandment was followed, and the people grew more and more prosperous throughout the land.
And there was a strict command throughout all the churches that there should be no persecutions among them, that there should be an equality among all men; 27.3
And there began to be much peace again in the land; and the people began to be very numerous, and began to scatter abroad upon the face of the earth, yea, on the north and on the south, on the east and on the west, building large cities and villages in all quarters of the land. 27.6
And the Lord did visit them and prosper them, and they became a large and wealthy people. 27.7
But there were still those damned unbelievers to deal with. Mosiah's own sons were unbelievers, and Alma's son too!  Alma's son, Alma (we'll call him Alma Jr.) was a real smooth talker (a man of many words) and he convinced many church members over to whoredom, baby eating*, and other evil stuff unbelievers do.
Now the sons of Mosiah were numbered among the unbelievers; and also one of the sons of Alma was numbered among them, he being called Alma, after his father; nevertheless, he became a very wicked and an idolatrous man. And he was a man of many words, and did speak much flattery to the people; therefore he led many of the people to do after the manner of his iniquities. 27.8
And he became a great hinderment to the prosperity of the church of God; stealing away the hearts of the people; causing much dissension among the people; giving a chance for the enemy of God to exercise his power over them. 27.9
But one day, just as they were about to destroy some more innocent lives, an angel of the lord went and visited them. He said he came because Alma (senior) prayed and prayed for his son to see the light.
And now it came to pass that while he was going about to destroy the church of God, for he did go about secretly with the sons of Mosiah seeking to destroy the church, and to lead astray the people of the Lord, contrary to the commandments of God, or even the king -- 27:10
And as I said unto you, as they were going about rebelling against God, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto them; and he descended as it were in a cloud; and he spake as it were with a voice of thunder, which caused the earth to shake upon which they stood; 27.11
And so great was their astonishment, that they fell to the earth, and understood not the words which he spake unto them. 27.12
Nevertheless he cried again, saying: Alma, arise and stand forth, for why persecutest thou the church of God? For the Lord hath said: This is my church, and I will establish it; and nothing shall overthrow it, save it is the transgression of my people. 27.13
And again, the angel said: Behold, the Lord hath heard the prayers of his people, and also the prayers of his servant, Alma, who is thy father; for he has prayed with much faith concerning thee that thou mightest be brought to the knowledge of the truth; therefore, for this purpose have I come to convince thee of the power and authority of God, that the prayers of his servants might be answered according to their faith. 27.14
And now behold, can ye dispute the power of God? For behold, doth not my voice shake the earth? And can ye not also behold me before you? And I am sent from God. 27.15
Alma and his buddies were pretty impressed. This guy's voice shook the earth! They knew that nothing besides the voice of God could shake the friggin' earth. (This was before the Seahawks and the Beastquake, so we'll forgive them).
And now Alma and those that were with him fell again to the earth, for great was their astonishment; for with their own eyes they had beheld an angel of the Lord; and his voice was as thunder, which shook the earth; and they knew that there was nothing save the power of God that could shake the earth and cause it to tremble as though it would part asunder. 27.18
Alma was so astonished that he couldn't talk or move afterwards. His friends carried him back to his father, laid him at his feed, and told Alma Sr. the story.
And now the astonishment of Alma was so great that he became dumb, that he could not open his mouth; yea, and he became weak, even that he could not move his hands; therefore he was taken by those that were with him, and carried helpless, even until he was laid before his father. 27.19
And they rehearsed unto his father all that had happened unto them; and his father rejoiced, for he knew that it was the power of God. 27.20
Alma brought a bunch of people together, and then they fasted and prayed for Alma Jr. After two days, Alma regained strength and his speech. Then, of course, it was time for his speech.
And he caused that a multitude should be gathered together that they might witness what the Lord had done for his son, and also for those that were with him. 27.21
And he caused that the priests should assemble themselves together; and they began to fast, and to pray to the Lord their God that he would open the mouth of Alma, that he might speak, and also that his limbs might receive their strength -- that the eyes of the people might be opened to see and know of the goodness and glory of God. 27.22 
And it came to passafter they had fasted and prayed for the space of two days and two nights, the limbs of Alma received their strength, and he stood up and began to speak unto them. 27.23
He proceeds to give a long speech explaining how the Lord saved him, how awful things were before he knew God, etc.
For, said he, I have repented of my sins, and have been redeemed of the Lord; behold I am born of the Spirit. 27.24
And the Lord said unto me: Marvel not that all mankind, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters; 27.25
And thus they become new creatures; and unless they do this, they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God. 27.26
I say unto you, unless this be the case, they must be cast off; and this I know, because I was like to be cast off. 27.27
Nevertheless, after wading through much tribulations, repenting nigh unto death, the Lord in mercy hath seen fit to snatch me out of an everlasting burning, and I am born of God. 27.28
My soul hath been redeemed from the gall of bitterness and bonds of iniquity. I was in the darkest abyss; but now I behold the marvelous light of God. My soul was racked with eternal torment; but I am snatched, and my soul is pained no more. 27.29
I rejected my Redeemer, and denied that which had been spoken of by our fathers; but now that they may foresee that he will come, and that he remembereth every creature of his creating, he will make himself manifest unto all. 27.30
Yea, every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess before him. Yea, even at the last day, when all men shall stand to be judged of him, then shall they confess that he is God; then shall they confess, who live without God in the world, that the judgment of an everlasting punishment is just upon them; and they shall quake, and tremble, and shrink beneath the glance of his all-searching eye. 27.31
From then on, Alma and his merry men (the sons of Mosiah: Ammon, Aaron, Omner and Himni) spent their days preaching to the people, teaching them and "publishing peace" throughout Zarahemla. Glory!
And now it came to pass that Alma began from this time forward to teach the people, and those who were with Alma at the time the angel appeared unto them, traveling round about through all the land, publishing to all the people the things which they had heard and seen, and preaching the word of God in much tribulation, being greatly persecuted by those who were unbelievers, being smitten by many of them. 27.32
But notwithstanding all this, they did impart much consolation to the church, confirming their faith, and exhorting them with long-suffering and much travail to keep the commandments of God. 27.33
And four of them were the sons of Mosiah; and their names were Ammon, and Aaron, and Omner, and Himni; these were the names of the sons of Mosiah. 27.34
And they traveled throughout all the lands of Zarahemla, and among all the people who were under the reign of king Mosiah, zealously striving to repair all the injuries which they had done to the church, confessing all their sins, and publishing all the things which they had seen, and explaining the prophecies and the scriptures to all who desired to hear them. 27.35
And thus they were instruments in the hands of God in bringing many to the knowledge of the truth, yea, to the knowledge of their Redeemer. 27.36
And how blessed are they! For they did publish peace; they did publish good tidings of good; and they did declare unto the people that the Lord reigneth. 27.37

*Just kidding. I'm pretty sure they didn't eat babies.

Posted by Philip Wells at 1/18/2014 05:58:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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 16 January 2014Mosiah 26: What to do with the unbelievers?
Just as things are starting to go really well for the new church, it starts to be threatened by the "rising generation" of unbelievers. Sound familiar? Maybe the Book of Mormon was prophesying about today.
Now it came to pass that there were many of the rising generation that could not understand the words of king Benjamin, being little children at the time he spake unto his people; and they did not believe the tradition of their fathers. 26.1
They did not believe what had been said concerning the resurrection of the dead, neither did they believe concerning the coming of Christ. 26.2
The unbelievers started to flatter and deceive the church members, so it became clear that the church had to do something about them. The unbelievers were gathered up and brought before Alma.
For it came to pass that they did deceive many with their flattering words, who were in the church, and did cause them to commit many sins; therefore it became expedient that those who committed sin, that were in the church, should be admonished by the church. 26.6
And it came to pass that they were brought before the priests, and delivered up unto the priests by the teachers; and the priests brought them before Alma, who was the high priest. 26.7
Alma didn't know what to do with them, so he brought them before king Mosiah.
Now there had not any such thing happened before in the church; therefore Alma was troubled in his spirit, and he caused that they should be brought before the king. 26.10
And he said unto the king: Behold, here are many whom we have brought before thee, who are accused of their brethren; yea, and they have been taken in divers iniquities. And they do not repent of their iniquities; therefore we have brought them before thee, that thou mayest judge them according to their crimes. 26.11
King Mosiah didn't know what to do with them, so he gave them back to Alma
But king Mosiah said unto Alma: Behold, I judge them not; therefore I deliver them into thy hands to be judged. 26.12
Alma still didn't know what to do with them, so he asks God.
And now the spirit of Alma was again troubled; and he went and inquired of the Lord what he should do concerning this matter, for he feared that he should do wrong in the sight of God. 26.13
After he pours out his whole soul, God answers: If the unbelievers repent, let them back in the church. If not, Let 'em burn.
And it came to pass that after he had poured out his whole soul to God, the voice of the Lord came to him, saying:
Blessed art thou, Alma, and blessed are they who were baptized in the waters of Mormon. Thou art blessed because of thy exceeding faith in the words alone of my servant Abinadi.
26.14-26.15
Thou art my servant; and I covenant with thee that thou shalt have eternal life; and thou shalt serve me and go forth in my name, and shalt gather together my sheep. 26.20
For behold, this is my church; whosoever is baptized shall be baptized unto repentance. And whomsoever ye receive shall believe in my name; and him will I freely forgive. 26.22
And it shall come to pass that when the second trump shall sound then shall they that never knew me come forth and shall stand before me. 26.25
And then I will confess unto them that I never knew them; and they shall depart into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 26.27
Alma "blotted out" the names of those who did not repent, and the church lived happily every after.
And those that would not confess their sins and repent of their iniquity, the same were not numbered among the people of the church, and their names were blotted out. 26.36
And it came to pass that Alma did regulate all the affairs of the church; and they began again to have peace and to prosper exceedingly in the affairs of the church, walking circumspectly before God, receiving many, and baptizing many. 26.37
And now all these things did Alma and his fellow laborers do who were over the church, walking in all diligence, teaching the word of God in all things, suffering all manner of afflictions, being persecuted by all those who did not belong to the church of God. 26.38

Posted by Philip Wells at 1/16/2014 05:16:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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2 comments:
 Andrew Hall said...
So, they cast out into the wilderness?
Fri Jan 17, 03:04:00 AM 2014 
 Philip Wells said...
It's unclear to me, Andrew. God gives a long speech to Alma, but never really tells him what to do with the unbelievers. I don't think they are cast out into the wilderness, because in the next chapter they (the unbelievers) are still causing trouble.
Sat Jan 18, 10:42:00 AM 2014 
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A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
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50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
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 15 January 2014The Thinking Atheist Podcast and other news
We are busy working on the Skeptic's Annotated Book of Mormon at the moment, but there have been a few interesting things come up about the SAB that we wanted to share. First off, Steve was on the Thinking Atheist Podcast with Seth Andrews yesterday. Here's the link to listen to the show: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpkVCU2TA4s






Also, we donated 3 cases of Skeptic's Annotated Bibles to the Center For Inquiry's Freethought Prison Project. We thought it was a pretty cool program, and worthwhile to support. The folks over at The Blaze wrote a surprisingly informative article about the situation:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/01/15/secular-group-targets-prisoners-with-plan-to-battle-bibles-and-religious-messages-in-american-prisons/

Maybe Steve will get invited to go on Glenn Beck. Fingers crossed.





Posted by Philip Wells at 1/15/2014 02:06:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
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Dwindling In Unbelief



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 15 January 2014The Thinking Atheist Podcast and other news
We are busy working on the Skeptic's Annotated Book of Mormon at the moment, but there have been a few interesting things come up about the SAB that we wanted to share. First off, Steve was on the Thinking Atheist Podcast with Seth Andrews yesterday. Here's the link to listen to the show: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpkVCU2TA4s






Also, we donated 3 cases of Skeptic's Annotated Bibles to the Center For Inquiry's Freethought Prison Project. We thought it was a pretty cool program, and worthwhile to support. The folks over at The Blaze wrote a surprisingly informative article about the situation:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/01/15/secular-group-targets-prisoners-with-plan-to-battle-bibles-and-religious-messages-in-american-prisons/

Maybe Steve will get invited to go on Glenn Beck. Fingers crossed.





Posted by Philip Wells at 1/15/2014 02:06:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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 26 February 2014Alma 10: The Evil Lawyers of Ammonihah
Amulek then hops on the soapbox. He tells his story, beginning with his fascinating genealogy. Then he explains how until a few days ago, he was just like them.
Nevertheless, I did harden my heart, for I was called many times and I would not hear; therefore I knew concerning these things, yet I would not know; therefore I went on rebelling against God, in the wickedness of my heart, even until the fourth day of this seventh month, which is in the tenth year of the reign of the judges. 10.6
But then he was visited by an angel. The angel told him to go home and keep his eyes peeled for a prophet. It was his duty to take the prophet into his house for a few days and to feed him.
As I was journeying to see a very near kindred, behold an angel of the Lord appeared unto me and said: Amulek, return to thine own house, for thou shalt feed a prophet of the Lord; yea, a holy man, who is a chosen man of God; for he has fasted many days because of the sins of this people, and he is an hungered, and thou shalt receive him into thy house and feed him, and he shall bless thee and thy house; and the blessing of the Lord shall rest upon thee and thy house. 10.7
Amulek listened to the angel. As he was journeying home he saw the prophet (which was Alma, of course) and invited him inside.
And it came to pass that I obeyed the voice of the angel, and returned towards my house. And as I was going thither I found the man whom the angel said unto me: Thou shalt receive into thy house -- and behold it was this same man who has been speaking unto you concerning the things of God. 10.8
The people were pretty impressed with Amulek's story. When one person tells a story, they might be lying... but if their friend corroborates their story, it's probably true.
And now, when Amulek had spoken these words the people began to be astonished, seeing there was more than one witness who testified of the things whereof they were accused, and also of the things which were to come, according to the spirit of prophecy which was in them. 10.12
But everyone wasn't convinced. There were these crafty people called "lawyers" who started asking Amulek and Alma all kinds of questions to see if their story held up to scrutiny.
Nevertheless, there were some among them who thought to question them, that by their cunning devices they might catch them in their words, that they might find witness against them, that they might deliver them to their judges that they might be judged according to the law, and that they might be slain or cast into prison, according to the crime which they could make appear or witness against them. 10.13
Now it was those men who sought to destroy them, who were lawyers, who were hired or appointed by the people to administer the law at their times of trials, or at the trials of the crimes of the people before the judges. 10.14
Now these lawyers were learned in all the arts and cunning of the people; and this was to enable them that they might be skilful in their profession. 10.15 
And it came to pass that they began to question Amulek, that thereby they might make him cross his words, or contradict the words which he should speak. 10.16
Alma deflected the questions by threatening the people in the city, and with ad hominem attacks against the lawyers.
Now they knew not that Amulek could know of their designs. But it came to pass as they began to question him, he perceived their thoughts, and he said unto them: O ye wicked and perverse generation, ye lawyers and hypocrites, for ye are laying the foundation of the devil; for ye are laying traps and snares to catch the holy ones of God. 10.17
Ye are laying plans to pervert the ways of the righteous, and to bring down the wrath of God upon your heads, even to the utter destruction of this people. 10.18
The people take the bait, and get angry with Amulek for insulting their just laws and their wise lawyers.
And now it came to pass that the people were more angry with Amulek, and they cried out, saying: This man doth revile against our laws which are just, and our wise lawyers whom we have selected. 10.24
Amulek fires back with more of the same arguments
But Amulek stretched forth his hand, and cried the mightier unto them, saying: O ye wicked and perverse generation, why hath Satan got such great hold upon your hearts? Why will ye yield yourselves unto him that he may have power over you, to blind your eyes, that ye will not understand the words which are spoken, according to their truth? 10.25
And now behold, I say unto you, that the foundation of the destruction of this people is beginning to be laid by the unrighteousness of your lawyers and your judges. 10.27
Then right before the chapter ends we are introduced to Zeezrom, one of the Ammonihahite lawyers. He is the cleverest of the bunch, and I'm guessing he's going to be a major character in the next few chapters of Alma.
And there was one among them whose name was Zeezrom. Now he was the foremost to accuse Amulek and Alma, he being one of the most expert among them, having much business to do among the people.10.31
PS, in case you hadn't realized yet, dear reader, lawyers are greedy, greedy people. What a funny way to end the chapter!
Now the object of these lawyers was to get gain; and they got gain according to their employ. 10.32

Posted by Philip Wells at 2/26/2014 01:50:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
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David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
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Is it wrong to burn people to death?
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Dwindling In Unbelief



This Blog Linked From Here

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Linked From Here
    
 26 February 2014Alma 10: The Evil Lawyers of Ammonihah
Amulek then hops on the soapbox. He tells his story, beginning with his fascinating genealogy. Then he explains how until a few days ago, he was just like them.
Nevertheless, I did harden my heart, for I was called many times and I would not hear; therefore I knew concerning these things, yet I would not know; therefore I went on rebelling against God, in the wickedness of my heart, even until the fourth day of this seventh month, which is in the tenth year of the reign of the judges. 10.6
But then he was visited by an angel. The angel told him to go home and keep his eyes peeled for a prophet. It was his duty to take the prophet into his house for a few days and to feed him.
As I was journeying to see a very near kindred, behold an angel of the Lord appeared unto me and said: Amulek, return to thine own house, for thou shalt feed a prophet of the Lord; yea, a holy man, who is a chosen man of God; for he has fasted many days because of the sins of this people, and he is an hungered, and thou shalt receive him into thy house and feed him, and he shall bless thee and thy house; and the blessing of the Lord shall rest upon thee and thy house. 10.7
Amulek listened to the angel. As he was journeying home he saw the prophet (which was Alma, of course) and invited him inside.
And it came to pass that I obeyed the voice of the angel, and returned towards my house. And as I was going thither I found the man whom the angel said unto me: Thou shalt receive into thy house -- and behold it was this same man who has been speaking unto you concerning the things of God. 10.8
The people were pretty impressed with Amulek's story. When one person tells a story, they might be lying... but if their friend corroborates their story, it's probably true.
And now, when Amulek had spoken these words the people began to be astonished, seeing there was more than one witness who testified of the things whereof they were accused, and also of the things which were to come, according to the spirit of prophecy which was in them. 10.12
But everyone wasn't convinced. There were these crafty people called "lawyers" who started asking Amulek and Alma all kinds of questions to see if their story held up to scrutiny.
Nevertheless, there were some among them who thought to question them, that by their cunning devices they might catch them in their words, that they might find witness against them, that they might deliver them to their judges that they might be judged according to the law, and that they might be slain or cast into prison, according to the crime which they could make appear or witness against them. 10.13
Now it was those men who sought to destroy them, who were lawyers, who were hired or appointed by the people to administer the law at their times of trials, or at the trials of the crimes of the people before the judges. 10.14
Now these lawyers were learned in all the arts and cunning of the people; and this was to enable them that they might be skilful in their profession. 10.15 
And it came to pass that they began to question Amulek, that thereby they might make him cross his words, or contradict the words which he should speak. 10.16
Alma deflected the questions by threatening the people in the city, and with ad hominem attacks against the lawyers.
Now they knew not that Amulek could know of their designs. But it came to pass as they began to question him, he perceived their thoughts, and he said unto them: O ye wicked and perverse generation, ye lawyers and hypocrites, for ye are laying the foundation of the devil; for ye are laying traps and snares to catch the holy ones of God. 10.17
Ye are laying plans to pervert the ways of the righteous, and to bring down the wrath of God upon your heads, even to the utter destruction of this people. 10.18
The people take the bait, and get angry with Amulek for insulting their just laws and their wise lawyers.
And now it came to pass that the people were more angry with Amulek, and they cried out, saying: This man doth revile against our laws which are just, and our wise lawyers whom we have selected. 10.24
Amulek fires back with more of the same arguments
But Amulek stretched forth his hand, and cried the mightier unto them, saying: O ye wicked and perverse generation, why hath Satan got such great hold upon your hearts? Why will ye yield yourselves unto him that he may have power over you, to blind your eyes, that ye will not understand the words which are spoken, according to their truth? 10.25
And now behold, I say unto you, that the foundation of the destruction of this people is beginning to be laid by the unrighteousness of your lawyers and your judges. 10.27
Then right before the chapter ends we are introduced to Zeezrom, one of the Ammonihahite lawyers. He is the cleverest of the bunch, and I'm guessing he's going to be a major character in the next few chapters of Alma.
And there was one among them whose name was Zeezrom. Now he was the foremost to accuse Amulek and Alma, he being one of the most expert among them, having much business to do among the people.10.31
PS, in case you hadn't realized yet, dear reader, lawyers are greedy, greedy people. What a funny way to end the chapter!
Now the object of these lawyers was to get gain; and they got gain according to their employ. 10.32

Posted by Philip Wells at 2/26/2014 01:50:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:  
No comments:
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Introduction


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How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
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50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
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Dwindling In Unbelief



This Blog Linked From Here

This Blog
     
Linked From Here
    
 26 February 2014Alma 10: The Evil Lawyers of Ammonihah
Amulek then hops on the soapbox. He tells his story, beginning with his fascinating genealogy. Then he explains how until a few days ago, he was just like them.
Nevertheless, I did harden my heart, for I was called many times and I would not hear; therefore I knew concerning these things, yet I would not know; therefore I went on rebelling against God, in the wickedness of my heart, even until the fourth day of this seventh month, which is in the tenth year of the reign of the judges. 10.6
But then he was visited by an angel. The angel told him to go home and keep his eyes peeled for a prophet. It was his duty to take the prophet into his house for a few days and to feed him.
As I was journeying to see a very near kindred, behold an angel of the Lord appeared unto me and said: Amulek, return to thine own house, for thou shalt feed a prophet of the Lord; yea, a holy man, who is a chosen man of God; for he has fasted many days because of the sins of this people, and he is an hungered, and thou shalt receive him into thy house and feed him, and he shall bless thee and thy house; and the blessing of the Lord shall rest upon thee and thy house. 10.7
Amulek listened to the angel. As he was journeying home he saw the prophet (which was Alma, of course) and invited him inside.
And it came to pass that I obeyed the voice of the angel, and returned towards my house. And as I was going thither I found the man whom the angel said unto me: Thou shalt receive into thy house -- and behold it was this same man who has been speaking unto you concerning the things of God. 10.8
The people were pretty impressed with Amulek's story. When one person tells a story, they might be lying... but if their friend corroborates their story, it's probably true.
And now, when Amulek had spoken these words the people began to be astonished, seeing there was more than one witness who testified of the things whereof they were accused, and also of the things which were to come, according to the spirit of prophecy which was in them. 10.12
But everyone wasn't convinced. There were these crafty people called "lawyers" who started asking Amulek and Alma all kinds of questions to see if their story held up to scrutiny.
Nevertheless, there were some among them who thought to question them, that by their cunning devices they might catch them in their words, that they might find witness against them, that they might deliver them to their judges that they might be judged according to the law, and that they might be slain or cast into prison, according to the crime which they could make appear or witness against them. 10.13
Now it was those men who sought to destroy them, who were lawyers, who were hired or appointed by the people to administer the law at their times of trials, or at the trials of the crimes of the people before the judges. 10.14
Now these lawyers were learned in all the arts and cunning of the people; and this was to enable them that they might be skilful in their profession. 10.15 
And it came to pass that they began to question Amulek, that thereby they might make him cross his words, or contradict the words which he should speak. 10.16
Alma deflected the questions by threatening the people in the city, and with ad hominem attacks against the lawyers.
Now they knew not that Amulek could know of their designs. But it came to pass as they began to question him, he perceived their thoughts, and he said unto them: O ye wicked and perverse generation, ye lawyers and hypocrites, for ye are laying the foundation of the devil; for ye are laying traps and snares to catch the holy ones of God. 10.17
Ye are laying plans to pervert the ways of the righteous, and to bring down the wrath of God upon your heads, even to the utter destruction of this people. 10.18
The people take the bait, and get angry with Amulek for insulting their just laws and their wise lawyers.
And now it came to pass that the people were more angry with Amulek, and they cried out, saying: This man doth revile against our laws which are just, and our wise lawyers whom we have selected. 10.24
Amulek fires back with more of the same arguments
But Amulek stretched forth his hand, and cried the mightier unto them, saying: O ye wicked and perverse generation, why hath Satan got such great hold upon your hearts? Why will ye yield yourselves unto him that he may have power over you, to blind your eyes, that ye will not understand the words which are spoken, according to their truth? 10.25
And now behold, I say unto you, that the foundation of the destruction of this people is beginning to be laid by the unrighteousness of your lawyers and your judges. 10.27
Then right before the chapter ends we are introduced to Zeezrom, one of the Ammonihahite lawyers. He is the cleverest of the bunch, and I'm guessing he's going to be a major character in the next few chapters of Alma.
And there was one among them whose name was Zeezrom. Now he was the foremost to accuse Amulek and Alma, he being one of the most expert among them, having much business to do among the people.10.31
PS, in case you hadn't realized yet, dear reader, lawyers are greedy, greedy people. What a funny way to end the chapter!
Now the object of these lawyers was to get gain; and they got gain according to their employ. 10.32

Posted by Philip Wells at 2/26/2014 01:50:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Reactions:  
No comments:
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Newer Post Older Post Home 
 New Audiobook
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   International SAB order

 
 
  
Drunk With Blood Audiobook:
Introduction


  Subscribe To
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 Atom   Posts
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 Search This Blog
 
 powered by 
 A biased sample
A Challenge to Christians
How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total)
Islam: It's mostly about going to the bathroom
Blogging the Book of Mormon
50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus
Who has killed more, Satan or God?
God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
Where do evil spirits come from?
David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
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 26 February 2014Alma 10: The Evil Lawyers of Ammonihah
Amulek then hops on the soapbox. He tells his story, beginning with his fascinating genealogy. Then he explains how until a few days ago, he was just like them.
Nevertheless, I did harden my heart, for I was called many times and I would not hear; therefore I knew concerning these things, yet I would not know; therefore I went on rebelling against God, in the wickedness of my heart, even until the fourth day of this seventh month, which is in the tenth year of the reign of the judges. 10.6
But then he was visited by an angel. The angel told him to go home and keep his eyes peeled for a prophet. It was his duty to take the prophet into his house for a few days and to feed him.
As I was journeying to see a very near kindred, behold an angel of the Lord appeared unto me and said: Amulek, return to thine own house, for thou shalt feed a prophet of the Lord; yea, a holy man, who is a chosen man of God; for he has fasted many days because of the sins of this people, and he is an hungered, and thou shalt receive him into thy house and feed him, and he shall bless thee and thy house; and the blessing of the Lord shall rest upon thee and thy house. 10.7
Amulek listened to the angel. As he was journeying home he saw the prophet (which was Alma, of course) and invited him inside.
And it came to pass that I obeyed the voice of the angel, and returned towards my house. And as I was going thither I found the man whom the angel said unto me: Thou shalt receive into thy house -- and behold it was this same man who has been speaking unto you concerning the things of God. 10.8
The people were pretty impressed with Amulek's story. When one person tells a story, they might be lying... but if their friend corroborates their story, it's probably true.
And now, when Amulek had spoken these words the people began to be astonished, seeing there was more than one witness who testified of the things whereof they were accused, and also of the things which were to come, according to the spirit of prophecy which was in them. 10.12
But everyone wasn't convinced. There were these crafty people called "lawyers" who started asking Amulek and Alma all kinds of questions to see if their story held up to scrutiny.
Nevertheless, there were some among them who thought to question them, that by their cunning devices they might catch them in their words, that they might find witness against them, that they might deliver them to their judges that they might be judged according to the law, and that they might be slain or cast into prison, according to the crime which they could make appear or witness against them. 10.13
Now it was those men who sought to destroy them, who were lawyers, who were hired or appointed by the people to administer the law at their times of trials, or at the trials of the crimes of the people before the judges. 10.14
Now these lawyers were learned in all the arts and cunning of the people; and this was to enable them that they might be skilful in their profession. 10.15 
And it came to pass that they began to question Amulek, that thereby they might make him cross his words, or contradict the words which he should speak. 10.16
Alma deflected the questions by threatening the people in the city, and with ad hominem attacks against the lawyers.
Now they knew not that Amulek could know of their designs. But it came to pass as they began to question him, he perceived their thoughts, and he said unto them: O ye wicked and perverse generation, ye lawyers and hypocrites, for ye are laying the foundation of the devil; for ye are laying traps and snares to catch the holy ones of God. 10.17
Ye are laying plans to pervert the ways of the righteous, and to bring down the wrath of God upon your heads, even to the utter destruction of this people. 10.18
The people take the bait, and get angry with Amulek for insulting their just laws and their wise lawyers.
And now it came to pass that the people were more angry with Amulek, and they cried out, saying: This man doth revile against our laws which are just, and our wise lawyers whom we have selected. 10.24
Amulek fires back with more of the same arguments
But Amulek stretched forth his hand, and cried the mightier unto them, saying: O ye wicked and perverse generation, why hath Satan got such great hold upon your hearts? Why will ye yield yourselves unto him that he may have power over you, to blind your eyes, that ye will not understand the words which are spoken, according to their truth? 10.25
And now behold, I say unto you, that the foundation of the destruction of this people is beginning to be laid by the unrighteousness of your lawyers and your judges. 10.27
Then right before the chapter ends we are introduced to Zeezrom, one of the Ammonihahite lawyers. He is the cleverest of the bunch, and I'm guessing he's going to be a major character in the next few chapters of Alma.
And there was one among them whose name was Zeezrom. Now he was the foremost to accuse Amulek and Alma, he being one of the most expert among them, having much business to do among the people.10.31
PS, in case you hadn't realized yet, dear reader, lawyers are greedy, greedy people. What a funny way to end the chapter!
Now the object of these lawyers was to get gain; and they got gain according to their employ. 10.32

Posted by Philip Wells at 2/26/2014 01:50:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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 23 February 2014Alma 9: Alma Speaks Again to the People of Ammonihah
In the last chapter, Alma was visited by an angel who told him to return no Ammonihah and preach to them again. He returned to the city, met a friend (Amulek), and worked his nerve up to preach to the people again.
When Alma started to preach the second time to the people of Ammonihah, he wasn't very successful. The people didn't listen to him. They kept saying things like: "God is going to destroy this whole city in a single day, and all he sends as warning is YOU?" They just didn't believe that Alma was a prophet. I guess they wanted proof or something.
And again, I, Alma, having been commanded of God that I should take Amulek and go forth and preach again unto this people, or the people who were in the city of Ammonihah, it came to pass as I began to preach unto them, they began to contend with me, saying: 9.1
Who art thou? Suppose ye that we shall believe the testimony of one man, although he should preach unto us that the earth should pass away? 9.2
And they said also: We will not believe thy words if thou shouldst prophesy that this great city should be destroyed in one day. 9.4
And they said: Who is God, that sendeth no more authority than one man among this people, to declare unto them the truth of such great and marvelous things? 9.6
Alma responds by reminding them how many times God has helped them in the past, especially how many times God helped them in battle. And he reminds them again how God will destroy them if they don't straighten up and fly right.
Behold, O ye wicked and perverse generation, how have ye forgotten the tradition of your fathers; yea, how soon ye have forgotten the commandments of God. 9.8
Do ye not remember that our father, Lehi, was brought out of Jerusalem by the hand of God? Do ye not remember that they were all led by him through the wilderness? 9.9 
And have ye forgotten so soon how many times he delivered our fathers out of the hands of their enemies, and preserved them from being destroyed, even by the hands of their own brethren? 9.10
Behold, now I say unto you that he commandeth you to repent; and except ye repent, ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God. But behold, this is not all -- he has commanded you to repent, or he will utterly destroy you from off the face of the earth; yea, he will visit you in his anger, and in his fierce anger he will not turn away. 9.12
In  fact, it will be even worse for the Ammonihahites than for the Lamanites, unless they repent of their sins and stop living wicked lives.
Now I would that ye should remember, that inasmuch as the Lamanites have not kept the commandments of God, they have been cut off from the presence of the Lord. Now we see that the word of the Lord has been verified in this thing, and the Lamanites have been cut off from his presence, from the beginning of their transgressions in the land. 9.14
Nevertheless I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable for them in the day of judgment than for you, if ye remain in your sins, yea, and even more tolerable for them in this life than for you, except ye repent. 9.15
God will also send the Lamanites after them if they don't repent.
But behold, I say unto you that if ye persist in your wickedness that your days shall not be prolonged in the land, for the Lamanites shall be sent upon you; and if ye repent not they shall come in a time when you know not, and ye shall be visited with utter destruction; and it shall be according to the fierce anger of the Lord. 9.18
You see, Jesus is coming soon. And he's a really nice guy.. he's full of grace, and truth; he's patient, merciful and kind. But if you don't repent before he gets here, then he'll throw you all in hell.
And now for this cause, that ye may not be destroyed the Lord has sent his angel to visit many of his people, declaring unto them that they must go forth and cry mightily unto this people, saying: Repent ye, for the kingdom of heaven is nigh at hand; 9.25
And not many days hence the Son of God shall come in his glory; and his glory shall be the glory of the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace, equity, and truth, full of patience, mercy, and long-suffering, quick to hear the cries of his people and to answer their prayers. 9.26
Therefore, prepare ye the way of the Lord, for the time is at hand that all men shall reap a reward of their works, according to that which they have been -- if they have been righteous they shall reap the salvation of their souls, according to the power and deliverance of Jesus Christ; and if they have been evil they shall reap the damnation of their souls, according to the power and captivation of the devil. 9.28
Then Alma called the Ammonihahites a "lost and fallen people". That really made them mad, because they were hard-hearted and stiffnecked. They tried to throw Alma in prison, but God wouldn't let them.
And now, my beloved brethren, for ye are my brethren, and ye ought to be beloved, and ye ought to bring forth works which are meet for repentance, seeing that your hearts have been grossly hardened against the word of God, and seeing that ye are a lost and a fallen people. 9.30
Now it came to pass that when I, Alma, had spoken these words, behold, the people were wroth with me because I said unto them that they were a hard-hearted and a stiffnecked people. 9.31
And also because I said unto them that they were a lost and a fallen people they were angry with me, and sought to lay their hands upon me, that they might cast me into prison. 9.32
But it came to pass that the Lord did not suffer them that they should take me at that time and cast me into prison. 9.33
After that, Alma stopped speaking and let his friend Amulek give it a try. Maybe he would have better luck.
And it came to pass that Amulek went and stood forth, and began to preach unto them also. And now the words of Amulek are not all written, nevertheless a part of his words are written in this book. 9.34
In the next chapter we get to hear the abridged version of Amulek's speech.
Posted by Philip Wells at 2/23/2014 07:12:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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2 comments:
 Daryl Cobranchi said...
Wow! That is some really bad writing. J. Smith sorely needed a good editor.
Sun Feb 23, 07:55:00 PM 2014 
 Stephen said...
"But it came to pass that the Lord did not suffer them that they should take me at that time and cast me into prison." 9.33
Holy shit! It would take a PhD in English to diagram that sentence.
Steve Weeks
Mon Feb 24, 05:56:00 PM 2014 
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 22 February 2014Behold, The Bridegroom Cometh
This video is featured at the LDS.org website, which seems somehow appropriate, given the church's recent apology for its polygamous past.
But what the hell was Jesus thinking when he came up with this parable? Can you imagine a modern religious leader using this story to illustrate a point, whatever that point might be? I can't.
Jesus's parable implicitly approves of things that we all (well most of us, anyway) disapprove of today -- a man having ten wives, all necessarily virgins, submissive to a husband who is their lord and master.
I love the video, though -- especially the expression on Jesus's face when he says, "The Kingdom of Heaven can be likened to ten virgins." He almost seems to wink to all the guys out there, saying, "You know what I'm talking about."
Posted by Steve Wells at 2/22/2014 11:38:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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2 comments:
 Stephen said...
Verily I say unto you it would probably be more fun for the Son of Man to play with the virgins all slathered up in olive oil, with or without a lamp!
Steve Weeks
Sat Feb 22, 02:39:00 PM 2014 
 Eric said...
Either that or the original version of "The Batchelor."
Sun Feb 23, 07:45:00 AM 2014 
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 18 February 2014Alma 8: Alma, the Door-to-Door Salesman
After finishing up in Gideon, Alma returned to his home in Zarahemla to rest. A year or so later he decided to go preach in Melek. Melek was in the West, across the Sidon river, on the edge of the wilderness.
And now it came to pass that Alma returned from the land of Gideon, after having taught the people of Gideon many things which cannot be written, having established the order of the church, according as he had before done in the land of Zarahemla, yea, he returned to his own house at Zarahemla to rest himself from the labors which he had performed. 8.1
And it came to pass in the commencement of the tenth year of the reign of the judges over the people of Nephi, that Alma departed from thence and took his journey over into the land of Melek, on the west of the river Sidon, on the west by the borders of the wilderness. 8.3
Alma was very successful in Melek. People came from far away to hear his sermons, and he baptized just about everyone in the vicinity of Melek.
And he began to teach the people in the land of Melek according to the holy order of God, by which he had been called; and he began to teach the people throughout all the land of Melek. 8.4
And it came to pass that the people came to him throughout all the borders of the land which was by the wilderness side. And they were baptized throughout all the land; 8.5
When he decided his work was done in Melek, Alma traveled north to the city of Ammonihah. Unfortunately for Alma, Satan had already beat him there. The people there had hard hearts and wouldn't listen to Alma's teachings. They called his religion "foolish traditions".
So that when he had finished his work at Melek he departed thence, and traveled three days' journey on the north of the land of Melek; and he came to a city which was called Ammonihah. 8.6
Now Satan had gotten great hold upon the hearts of the people of the city of Ammonihah; therefore they would not hearken unto the words of Alma. 8.9
Nevertheless, they hardened their hearts, saying unto him: Behold, we know that thou art Alma; and we know that thou art high priest over the church which thou hast established in many parts of the land, according to your tradition; and we are not of thy church, and we do not believe in such foolish traditions. 8.11
Alma tried really hard to convert the Ammonihahites. He "labored much in the spirit" and even tried "wrestling with God in mighty prayer," but nothing worked. (What a waste of a good God-wrestle! He didn't even get a new name or anything...)
The Ammonihahites knew that Alma wasn't chief judge anymore, and that had no real power over them. Even back then people understood the value of separating church and state!
Nevertheless Alma labored much in the spirit, wrestling with God in mighty prayer, that he would pour out his Spirit upon the people who were in the city; that he would also grant that he might baptize them unto repentance. 8.10
And now we know that because we are not of thy church we know that thou hast no power over us; and thou hast delivered up the judgment-seat unto Nephihah; therefore thou art not the chief judge over us. 8.12
Then they got rude. They spit on Alma and kicked him out of the city. He decided to travel north and try his luck in the city of Aaron.
Now when the people had said this, and withstood all his words, and reviled him, and spit upon him, and caused that he should be cast out of their city, he departed thence and took his journey towards the city which was called Aaron. 8.13
On his way he was stopped by an angel of the Lord. The angel told him to return to Ammonihah and try again. Yea, he told him to try again (see verse 16). The angel told him that the people of Ammonihah would eventually destroy his people unless they were converted.
The angel made no promises about his luck, but Alma obeyed and ran back to the city. He snuck in through the southern entrance.
And it came to pass that while he was journeying thither, being weighed down with sorrow, wading through much tribulation and anguish of soul, because of the wickedness of the people who were in the city of Ammonihah, it came to pass while Alma was thus weighed down with sorrow, behold an angel of the Lord appeared unto him, saying: 8.14
Blessed art thou, Alma; therefore, lift up thy head and rejoice, for thou hast great cause to rejoice; for thou hast been faithful in keeping the commandments of God from the time which thou receivedst thy first message from him. Behold, I am he that delivered it unto you. 8.15
And behold, I am sent to command thee that thou return to the city of Ammonihah, and preach again unto the people of the city; yea, preach unto them. Yea, say unto them, except they repent the Lord God will destroy them. 8.16   
For behold, they do study at this time that they may destroy the liberty of thy people, (for thus saith the Lord) which is contrary to the statutes, and judgments, and commandments which he has given unto his people. 8.17 
Now it came to pass that after Alma had received his message from the angel of the Lord he returned speedily to the land of Ammonihah. And he entered the city by another way, yea, by the way which is on the south of the city of Ammonihah. 8.18
Alma was getting hungry (an hungered) so he decided to take his chances and ask someone there to feed him. He got lucky and ran into a nice guy named Amulek who took him in and fed him. He ended up staying with Amulek for "many days" before getting his nerve up to speak to the people.

And as he entered the city he was an hungered, and he said to a man: Will ye give to an humble servant of God something to eat? 8.19 
And the man said unto him: I am a Nephite, and I know that thou art a holy prophet of God, for thou art the man whom an angel said in a vision: Thou shalt receive. Therefore, go with me into my house and I will impart unto thee of my food; and I know that thou wilt be a blessing unto me and my house. 8.20
And it came to pass that the man received him into his house; and the man was called Amulek; and he brought forth bread and meat and set before Alma. 8.21
And it came to pass that Alma ate bread and was filled; and he blessed Amulek and his house, and he gave thanks unto God. 8.22
And after he had eaten and was filled he said unto Amulek: I am Alma, and am the high priest over the church of God throughout the land. 8.23 
And behold, I have been called to preach the word of God among all this people, according to the spirit of revelation and prophecy; and I was in this land and they would not receive me, but they cast me out and I was about to set my back towards this land forever. 8.24
But behold, I have been commanded that I should turn again and prophesy unto this people, yea, and to testify against them concerning their iniquities. 8.25 
And now, Amulek, because thou hast fed me and taken me in, thou art blessed; for I was an hungered, for I had fasted many days. 8.26 
And Alma tarried many days with Amulek before he began to preach unto the people. 8.27
In the meantime, the situation in Ammonihah was just getting worse and worse. The people there were more wicked than ever. Alma was spoken to again by the angel, and the angel told him to recruit Amulek to help him preach to the people--and to get started and quit dilly-dallying.
And the word came to Alma, saying: Go; and also say unto my servant Amulek, go forth and prophesy unto this people, saying -- Repent ye, for thus saith the Lord, except ye repent I will visit this people in mine anger; yea, and I will not turn my fierce anger away. 8.29
So they started preaching. This time Alma wasn't letting himself get pushed around. The spirit gave them the power to break bands (like Samson), escape from dungeons, and not be killed. They didn't show off their powers right away, though. First they waited until they got thrown in prison, and then they escaped, so they could show the Lord's power.
And they had power given unto them, insomuch that they could not be confined in dungeons; neither was it possible that any man could slay them; nevertheless they did not exercise their power until they were bound in bands and cast into prison. Now, this was done that the Lord might show forth his power in them. 8.31
And it came to pass that they went forth and began to preach and to prophesy unto the people, according to the spirit and power which the Lord had given them. 8.32
 I bet everyone was pretty impressed.



Posted by Philip Wells at 2/18/2014 04:53:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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 17 February 2014Alma 7: Jesus is Coming
In the last chapter, Alma left Zarahemla to go visit the new city of Gideon, and preach to the people there. When he arrives, he starts his speech by explaining why he hadn't visited already. You see, he was a little preoccupied before because he was both high priest and chief judge.
Behold my beloved brethren, seeing that I have been permitted to come unto you, therefore I attempt to address you in my language; yea, by my own mouth, seeing that it is the first time that I have spoken unto you by the words of my mouth, I having been wholly confined to the judgment-seat, having had much business that I could not come unto you. 7.1
Alma then explains to them the problems of Zarahemla, and how he hopes that they have avoided similar problems in Gideon.
And behold, I have come having great hopes and much desire that I should find that ye had humbled yourselves before God, and that ye had continued in the supplicating of his grace, that I should find that ye were blameless before him, that I should find that ye were not in the awful dilemma that our brethren were in at Zarahemla. 7.3
 But blessed be the name of God, that he hath given me to know, yea, hath given unto me the exceedingly great joy of knowing that they are established again in the way of his righteousness. 7.4
And I trust, according to the Spirit of God which is in me, that I shall also have joy over you; nevertheless I do not desire that my joy over you should come by the cause of so much afflictions and sorrow which I have had for the brethren at Zarahemla, for behold, my joy cometh over them after wading through much affliction and sorrow. 7.5
But behold, I trust that ye are not in a state of so much unbelief as were your brethren; I trust that ye are not lifted up in the pride of your hearts; yea, I trust that ye have not set your hearts upon riches and the vain things of the world; yea, I trust that you do not worship idols, but that ye do worship the true and living God, and that ye look forward for the remission of your sins, with an everlasting faith, which is to come. 7.6
Then things get interesting! Alma predicts the coming of Jesus:
For behold, I say unto you there be many things to come; and behold, there is one thing which is of more importance than they all -- for behold, the time is not far distant that the Redeemer liveth and cometh among his people. 7.7
But behold, the Spirit hath said this much unto me, saying: Cry unto this people, saying -- Repent ye, and prepare the way of the Lord, and walk in his paths, which are straight; for behold, the kingdom of heaven is at hand, and the Son of God cometh upon the face of the earth. 7.9
He goes into detail, explaining how Jesus will be born to Mary, in Jerusalem-- how it's going to be a virgin birth, and how Jesus will be the son of God.
And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God. 7.10
He predicts Jesus' death, and how he will sacrifice himself so that people can live forever in heaven. But only if they repent. Alma knew all this stuff beforehand. He was a pretty cool dude.
And he shall go forth, suffering pains and afflictions and temptations of every kind; and this that the word might be fulfilled which saith he will take upon him the pains and the sicknesses of his people. 7.11
And he will take upon him death, that he may loose the bands of death which bind his people; and he will take upon him their infirmities, that his bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities. 7.12
Alma tells the Gideonites that they need to repent in order to live forever. And they better do it soon, too, because Jesus was coming quickly. But overall, they were doing a pretty good job (especially compared to the Zarahemlites).
Now I say unto you that ye must repent, and be born again; for the Spirit saith if ye are not born again ye cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore come and be baptized unto repentance, that ye may be washed from your sins, that ye may have faith on the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sins of the world, who is mighty to save and to cleanse from all unrighteousness. 7.14
And now my beloved brethren, do you believe these things? Behold, I say unto you, yea, I know that ye believe them; and the way that I know that ye believe them is by the manifestation of the Spirit which is in me. And now because your faith is strong concerning that, yea, concerning the things which I have spoken, great is my joy. 7.17
For as I said unto you from the beginning, that I had much desire that ye were not in the state of dilemma like your brethren, even so I have found that my desires have been gratified. 7.18
For I perceive that ye are in the paths of righteousness; I perceive that ye are in the path which leads to the kingdom of God; yea, I perceive that ye are making his paths straight. 7.19
Then he gives some holy directions. How do you get to heaven? Walk straight, not crooked. Don't walk to the right or the left, and go in a big circle.
I perceive that it has been made known unto you, by the testimony of his word, that he cannot walk in crooked paths; neither doth he vary from that which he hath said; neither hath he a shadow of turning from the right to the left, or from that which is right to that which is wrong; therefore, his course is one eternal round. 7.20
That's about everything of interest in this chapter. Alma finishes up his speech with the usual stuff: be good, be thankful to God, don't wear fancy clothes, and have faith.
And now I would that ye should be humble, and be submissive and gentle; easy to be entreated; full of patience and long-suffering; being temperate in all things; being diligent in keeping the commandments of God at all times; asking for whatsoever things ye stand in need, both spiritual and temporal; always returning thanks unto God for whatsoever things ye do receive. 7.23
And see that ye have faith, hope, and charity, and then ye will always abound in good works. 7.24
Posted by Philip Wells at 2/17/2014 04:16:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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 15 February 2014Alma 6: Alma Goes to the City of Gideon (in the Valley of Gideon, There Having a City Built, Named for Gideon, Who Was Slain By the Hand of Nehor With the Sword)
After Alma finished his speech, he reorganized the church a little bit. He ordained priests and elders, and allowed church membership to anyone who wasn't yet in the church, so long as they repented of their sins and were baptized.
And now it came to pass that after Alma had made an end of speaking unto the people of the church, which was established in the city of Zarahemla, he ordained priests and elders, by laying on his hands according to the order of God, to preside and watch over the church. 6.1
And it came to pass that whosoever did not belong to the church who repented of their sins were baptized unto repentance, and were received into the church. 6.2
But he also kicked out church members who didn't repent of their sins (especially the prideful ones!).
And it also came to pass that whosoever did belong to the church that did not repent of their wickedness and humble themselves before God -- I mean those who were lifted up in the pride of their hearts -- the same were rejected, and their names were blotted out, that their names were not numbered among those of the righteous. 6.3
Alma told everyone to be good, and pray often, because he was leaving to go preach somewhere else. He was heading over to the newly built city of Gideon. (It was named after the Gideon guy who was killed by Nehor. The Book of Mormon explains it succinctly in verse 7).
Nevertheless the children of God were commanded that they should gather themselves together oft, and join in fasting and mighty prayer in behalf of the welfare of the souls of those who knew not God. 6.6
And now it came to pass that when Alma had made these regulations he departed from them, yea, from the church which was in the city of Zarahemla, and went over upon the east of the river Sidon, into the valley of Gideon, there having been a city built, which was called the city of Gideon, which was in the valley that was called Gideon, being called after the man who was slain by the hand of Nehor with the sword. 6.7
So Alma went and preached in Gideon.
And Alma went and began to declare the word of God unto the church which was established in the valley of Gideon, according to the revelation of the truth of the word which had been spoken by his fathers, and according to the spirit of prophecy which was in him, according to the testimony of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who should come to redeem his people from their sins, and the holy order by which he was called. And thus it is written. Amen. 6.8

Posted by Philip Wells at 2/15/2014 12:27:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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 13 February 2014Alma 5: Repent! (Or ye shall be cast into the fire)
Now that Alma is a full-time preacher, he had time to give the long speeches that he had always wanted to give, but never had the time for. He went all over Zarahemla, and throughout all the land, and spoke to the people.
He reminded them of all of the things that God had done for them, and how ungrateful they were.
Now it came to pass that Alma began to deliver the word of God unto the people, first in the land of Zarahemla, and from thence throughout all the land. 5.1
And behold, I say unto you, they were delivered out of the hands of the people of king Noah, by the mercy and power of God. 5.4
And behold, after that, they were brought into bondage by the hands of the Lamanites in the wilderness; yea, I say unto you, they were in captivity, and again the Lord did deliver them out of bondage by the power of his word; and we were brought into this land, and here we began to establish the church of God throughout this land also. 5.5
And now behold, I say unto you, my brethren, you that belong to this church, have you sufficiently retained in remembrance the captivity of your fathers? Yea, and have you sufficiently retained in remembrance his mercy and long-suffering towards them? And moreover, have ye sufficiently retained in remembrance that he has delivered their souls from hell? 5.6
(Much more of the same:) 5.7-21
He really tries to make them feel guilty. My favorite line is:
And now I ask of you, my brethren, how will any of you feel, if ye shall stand before the bar of God, having your garments stained with blood and all manner of filthiness? Behold, what will these things testify against you? 5.22
I would think that Jesus would be proud of their bloody clothes, since his own robes were dipped in blood. But you never know.
There's not much else of note in this speech. In verses 52 and 56, there is a nice description of Hell:
And again I say unto you, the Spirit saith: Behold, the ax is laid at the root of the tree; therefore every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit shall be hewn down and cast into the fire*, yea, a fire which cannot be consumed, even an unquenchable fire. Behold, and remember, the Holy One hath spoken it. 5.52
And finally, all ye that will persist in your wickedness, I say unto you that these are they who shall be hewn down and cast into the fire except they speedily repent. 5.56
A lot of this chapter is "borrowed" from the gospels of Matthew and John--which is interesting, because this is taking place before they were written. God works in mysterious ways. But other than that, there isn't much going on this chapter. God is great, you are wicked, repent, repeat. If you want to read Alma's preaching in it's entirety, you can do so here. I already did, and I wouldn't recommend it :)
*And now also the ax is laid untothe root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Matthew 3:10


Posted by Philip Wells at 2/13/2014 02:21:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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 12 February 2014Alma 4: Alma Appoints Nephihah
The Nephites began to enjoy peace in the sixth year of the reign of the Judges. They were still recovering from the nasty war, in which so many of their people had died and much of their economy was destroyed (flocks, herds, fields of grain, etc.)
Now it came to pass in the sixth year of the reign of the judges over the people of Nephi, there were no contentions nor wars in the land of Zarahemla; 4.1
But the people were afflicted, yea, greatly afflicted for the loss of their brethren, and also for the loss of their flocks and herds, and also for the loss of their fields of grain, which were trodden under foot and destroyed by the Lamanites. 4.2
Everyone decided that God must have sent the destruction upon them because of their bad behavior. It made sense--he was always doing stuff like that. For a while everyone was on their best behavior. Many new church members were added during this time, and it was a time of peace and prosperity.
And so great were their afflictions that every soul had cause to mourn; and they believed that it was the judgments of God sent upon them because of their wickedness and their abominations; therefore they were awakened to a remembrance of their duty. 4.3
And it came to pass in the seventh year of the reign of the judges there were about three thousand five hundred souls that united themselves to the church of God and were baptized. And thus endeth the seventh year of the reign of the judges over the people of Nephi; and there was continual peace in all that time. 4.5
But, one short year later, the people became proud. You see, everyone managed to get REALLY rich in the three years since the war. They had abundance of fine-twilled linen, and silks, and silver, and gold, and flocks... They had all manner of precious things.
And as if being proud wasn't bad enough, they started wearing costly apparel.
And it came to pass in the eighth year of the reign of the judges, that the people of the church began to wax proud, because of their exceeding riches, and their fine silks, and their fine-twined linen, and because of their many flocks and herds, and their gold and their silver, and all manner of precious things, which they had obtained by their industry; and in all these things were they lifted up in the pride of their eyes, for they began to wear very costly apparel. 4.6
All of the usual things follow: Some of the people resist the urge to be proud and wear fancy clothes, and they took care of the needy and continued to be good people.
Now this was the cause of much affliction to Alma, yea, and to many of the people whom Alma had consecrated to be teachers, and priests, and elders over the church; yea, many of them were sorely grieved for the wickedness which they saw had begun to be among their people. 4.7
For they saw and beheld with great sorrow that the people of the church began to be lifted up in the pride of their eyes, and to set their hearts upon riches and upon the vain things of the world, that they began to be scornful, one towards another, and they began to persecute those that did not believe according to their own will and pleasure. 4.8
The whole situation was getting so bad that the church members were actually becoming more wicked than the nonbelievers. That doesn't happen too often!
And thus, in this eighth year of the reign of the judges, there began to be great contentions among the people of the church; yea, there were envyings, and strife, and malice, and persecutions, and pride, even to exceed the pride of those who did not belong to the church of God. 4.9
And thus ended the eighth year of the reign of the judges; and the wickedness of the church was a great stumbling-block to those who did not belong to the church; and thus the church began to fail in its progress. 4.11
Alma decided to appoint someone else as Chief Judge, so he could focus all of his energy on preaching. He selected a wise elder of the church named Nehpihah. Alma retained the position of High Priest for himself.
And he selected a wise man who was among the elders of the church, and gave him power according to the voice of the people, that he might have power to enact laws according to the laws which had been given, and to put them in force according to the wickedness and the crimes of the people. 4.16
Now this man's name was Nephihah, and he was appointed chief judge; and he sat in the judgment-seat to judge and to govern the people. 4.17
Now Alma did not grant unto him the office of being high priest over the church, but he retained the office of high priest unto himself; but he delivered the judgment-seat unto Nephihah. 4.18
Will Alma be able to save the people from their pride, wickedness, and fancy clothes? You'll just have to wait to find out.







Posted by Philip Wells at 2/12/2014 03:20:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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2 comments:
 vivin said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Wed Feb 19, 09:14:00 PM 2014 
 Gary Walton said...
I've read all the BofM you've posted on your site and can't decide which of these "books" in the BofM is the silliest.
This one, the Book of Alma (where'd Joe Smith come up with that? Alma Mater?) seems to have a heavy sprinkling of "yea". If all the yeas and it came to passes and excedingly sos were removed how much of the BofM would be left?
Fri Feb 21, 07:50:00 PM 2014 
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Dwindling In Unbelief



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 12 February 2014A Darwin quote for Darwin Day
For Darwin Day, I thought I'd (re)post one of my favorite Darwin quotes. Here it is:
I cannot persuade myself that a beneficent & omnipotent God would have designedly created the Ichneumonidae with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of caterpillars, or that a cat should play with mice. -- From a letter to Asa Gray, 22 May 1860
The Ichneumonidae is a family of wasps. A very big family. It is, in fact, one of the largest families in the largest class of animals, the insects. There are over 60,000 species of ichneumonid wasps, each one, according to creationists, specially designed by God. My question for them is the same as Charles Darwin's: Why? Why would a beneficent and omnipotent God do such a thing?
To understand the question, it is necessary to know a bit about the ichneumonids. First of all, most are parasitoids, which means that their larvae develop inside the body of a living host, which they slowly eat alive. Eventually, when the wasp larvae pupate, they erupt out of the body of the host that they have gradually consumed, tormented, and destroyed as larvae.
It is easy to see how such a thing could exist from an evolutionary standpoint. The body of a caterpillar is good food for larvae. It's not surprising that some organisms have evolved to take advantage of it. But what kind of a God would purposefully design it to be that way?
I have heard five different answers:
God originally made everything good; there was no suffering or death until the fall of Adam. Then all hell broke loose. Animals immediately began to kill and eat each other, and predators, parasites, parasitoids, and pathogens roamed the earth. (Creation Ministries)
God made things nasty right from the start just to show us how important we are to him. He knew that Adam would sin, so he made nature cruel to show us the serious nature of sin. (Dembski's Defective Design Inference)
God made everything good and then Satan messed everything up. (Gregory Boyd's Cosmic Warfare Theodicy)
God likes it just fine the way it is. He created it that way for is own pleasure. He likes to watch things suffer. (David Snoke)
God couldn't help it and had nothing to do with it. He would have liked to create a kind and peaceful world, but he had to let things play out according to the laws of nature, over which he had no control. So the ichneumonid wasps just evolved, along with everything else, over millions of years while God sadly watched from a distance, unable to affect the outcome. (Ken Miller)
For each of these answers, though, I have a question.
How did things change so quickly? Were the 60,000 ichneumonid species specially created by God the moment Adam sinned? Or did God magically turn 60,000 butterfly species into parasitic wasps? Or did they all evolve (super)naturally in a few thousand years?
How do the ichneumonids teach us about sin? Until about the time of Darwin no one (except God) even knew they existed? Yet God created them just for us, just to teach us a lesson?
So Satan created the Ichneumonids? Along with scorpions, spiders, snakes, and sharks? He must have been a busy guy!
How could a kind and loving God create things just to watch them suffer?
A God who can't create or control anything isn't a God at all.
Here are some cool videos about the Ichneumonids.
The first one is from David Attenborough's marvelous "Life in the Undergrowth."


And here's one showing a Ichneumonid wasp (Megarhyssa sp.) drilling through the bark of an oak tree to deposit an egg in the tunnel of the siricid wood wasp, whose larva the Maegarhyssa lava will eat alive from the inside in the traditional Ichneumonid fashion (just like God intended it to be).


Posted by Steve Wells at 2/12/2014 07:30:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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35 comments:
 FrodoSaves said...
Damn. That second wasp is pretty incredible. How big are these things? And how much do they like people intruding on their private affairs with a video camera?
;)
Sat Feb 14, 02:44:00 AM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
FrodoSaves,
Yeah, they're pretty cool, aren't they? I've never seen one oviposit before, but it is one of my goals in life. I understand, though, that they are pretty vulnerable at that time and can't just fly away when their ovipositor is stuck a cm or so into tree bark. Here's what Borror and Delong's Study of Insects says about it.
"Retraction of the ovipositor is also relatively slow. It is not uncommon to find what look like thin, black needles protruding from the wood of a dead tree. These are the ovipositors of females that either were unable to free themselves or were eaten by birds while ovipositing."
Sat Feb 14, 08:01:00 AM 2009 
 busterggi said...
Sure!
If any god would design such creatures it would be the genocidal, psychopathic, torture & human sacrifice loving Judeo-Christian-Islamic god.
Sat Feb 14, 11:29:00 AM 2009 
 Ian G. said...
The comment about birds eating the wasps got me thinking:
We don't even have to talk about parasitic wasps to doubt that all life was created by a loving, just God. That beautiful cardinal singing outside your window on a spring morning? Yeah, he's going to kill and devour hundreds of living creatures (insects, worms, spiders, etc.) over the course of a life that very easily could end in horrible violence as he is plucked from the sky by a Coopers Hawk.
The fact that animals that we find beautiful and majestic are routinely killing each other just to survive is enough proof against a just, loving God for me.
Sun Feb 15, 05:48:00 PM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
Busterggi,
I agree. The god of the Bible and the god of nature are both cruel and sadistic. Thank goodness there's no evidence for the existence of either of them.
Ian,
You're absolutely right. Nature is from top to bottom red in tooth and claw. No one but a sadist would have designed it to be that way.
Sun Feb 15, 06:52:00 PM 2009 
 Michael Ejercito said...
How could a kind and loving God create things just to watch them suffer?
He is God; He felt like it.
Sun Jun 21, 06:01:00 PM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
He's God; He felt like it.
So God just felt like creating things just so he could watch them suffer? And you worship this God?
Sun Jun 21, 06:27:00 PM 2009 
 Xolotl-Tzin said...
So God just felt like creating things just so he could watch them suffer? And you worship this God?
What if he's a masochist?
Nah, i joke. I don't understand how people can live with such unrealistic expectations. everything suffers. its a fact of life. what do you expect?
Sun Jun 21, 06:30:00 PM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
What if he's a masochist?
I guess you mean sadist, eh Xolotl-Tzin?
Everything suffers because God (if there is one) purposefully designed it that way.
So much for the KFC (Kind, Friendly Creator) theory.
Sun Jun 21, 06:49:00 PM 2009 
 Xolotl-Tzin said...
I guess you mean sadist, eh Xolotl-Tzin?
Nah. this was my bad. by masochist i am referring to the guy who said God made 'em. Not god himself. :)
If you like a sadistic god, you'd have to be a masochist hm?
Sun Jun 21, 07:17:00 PM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
I'm sorry, but I don't understand you comment, Zolotl-Tzin.
Sun Jun 21, 07:24:00 PM 2009 
 Michael Ejercito said...
So God just felt like creating things just so he could watch them suffer? And you worship this God?
Yes, He is Lord of Lords and King of Kings.
Mon Jun 22, 09:22:00 AM 2009 
 Steve Wells said...
"He is Lord of Lords and King of Kings.
And Lord of the flies.
Mon Jun 22, 09:54:00 AM 2009 
 Jay said...
From a creationist:
To explain why God would allow such a thing, one should look at explanations why it should make ecological sense.
Parasitism and predation create balancing systems. For example if the caterpillar population mushrooms, that makes a happy season for parasitic wasps.
Parasitism and predation are always unhappy events for the victims.
If you are outraged by that, consider making your own natural world without it.
Sat Mar 20, 01:26:00 AM 2010 
 Michael Ejercito said...
Why do people expect that predation is somehow ungodly?
Sat Mar 20, 09:51:00 AM 2010 
 George said...
Xolotl-Tzin said...
So God just felt like creating things just so he could watch them suffer? And you worship this God?
You have slandered the character of the True God. So NO, we do not worship the idol you have presented.
Wed Jul 28, 02:04:00 PM 2010 
 Xolotl-Tzin said...
I don't worship the Christian god nor believe it exists, George. I think its unrealistic.
I don't have a problem with "sadistic" gods and is not a point of contention for me. Although both Christians and atheists certainly do.
Wed Jul 28, 02:50:00 PM 2010 
 caestus said...
I love this post because it deals specifically with one of my favourite topics, Ichneumonidae, and then ties it to the theological challenge raised by parasitism.
However, I caught this little point that bears noting, amending:
"From a letter to Asa Gray, 22 Mary 1860."
Thu Oct 28, 12:56:00 PM 2010 
 Steve Wells said...
Thanks for the correction, caestus. The 22nd of Mary -- must have been an ex-catholic Freudian slip.
Thu Oct 28, 01:09:00 PM 2010 
 Forgiven through Christ said...
Sin is a word we no longer like to use. Sin is to act against God's will. The two great commandments given by Jesus are "Love the Lord with all your heart" and "Love your neighbor as yourself." Animals don't sin because they have no knowledge of good and evil, just as a baby cannot sin. Animals simply adapt to their surroundings and follow their God-given instinct to survive.
In Genesis, man began to sin when he ate from the tree of the knowedge of good and evil. I believe this tree is symbolic. As man evolved and became more intelligent, he knew good from evil. Man now sins when he does what he knows is evil. To fail to love God and your fellow man is to sin.
Sun Mar 27, 11:46:00 AM 2011 
 Steve Wells said...
So FTC, what's sin got to do, got to do with it?
Did God create the Ichneumonidae? If so, when, why, and how?
Sun Mar 27, 12:03:00 PM 2011 
 Michael Ejercito said...
Did God create the Ichneumonidae? If so, when, why, and how?
Yes, He created them, and He did so because He felt like it .
What other reason do we need?
Sun Mar 27, 06:20:00 PM 2011 
 Steve Wells said...
Michael Ejercito,
Yes, He created them, and He did so because He felt like it.
Then he is a sadist.
Sun Mar 27, 06:53:00 PM 2011 
 Michael Ejercito said...
He is Lord of Lords and King of Kings; His might maketh right.
Sun Mar 27, 07:00:00 PM 2011 
 lostintravise said...
Great post! This quote by Darwin is one of my favorite quotes both biologically and religiously. It was one of the first things that got me interested in parasites (which I am hoping to study for the rest of my life)!
To the religious part of the quote there is no justification for it! On the intelligent design facet there is no way you can salvage a loving, caring god from one who designs things like ichneumon wasps or fluke worms. And, to the people who say that god simply set up laws and let things run (the deists), what is even the point in believing in a god if you've stripped "god" down to such a pathetic, pointless entity?
Thu Mar 31, 08:08:00 PM 2011 
 Michael Ejercito said...
God's justification is the virtue of His station as Lord of Lords and King of Kings.
Fri Apr 01, 05:43:00 PM 2011 
 Xolotl-Tzin said...
What if this is God's sick sense of humor? I'd prefer to see it as nature's myself.
Sat Apr 02, 06:16:00 AM 2011 
 Raz said...
Highly biased and one sided argument of course.It is one I would agree is difficult to tie up with belief in God. Charles Darwin stated many things however, and just one is being quoted here to suit the argument.Darwin was for most of his life a Christian. Many think that evolution and belief in God is contradictory, for instance. Darwin said "It seems to me absurd to doubt that a man may be both an ardent theist and evolutionist". Darwin's quotes are plentiful, on both sides of the argument.
Sat Jul 16, 05:38:00 PM 2011 
 Raz said...
Very selective about the Darwin comments I see. Darwin's comments are plentiful, and are on both sides of the argument in truth. He was in fact a Christian for most of his life, then had doubts caused by his theory of evolution by natural selection. He did not propose evolution as this theory had been established previously, but proposed that it was by natural selection. Is is believed from some sources that he resorted to his faith again. Whether that is believed may again be down to your bias, as there are arguments for and against this.
Sat Jul 16, 05:49:00 PM 2011 
 Thanks, but no thanks said...
My goodness. What food for thought. I have not believed in a God ever since science began making too much sense to me. But as several creationists have argued here, the existence of parasitoid creatures such as the Ichneumonid wasp does not preclude the notion of an all-powerful God.
It does, however, erase any notion of a loving, forgiving God. And I cannot fathom why anyone would worship a deity which has no love for its creations.
Well done, creationists, for successfully convincing me that a God may indeed exist. But I could never, ever worship such a cruel deity. Indeed, I don't know how any rational person could.
Thu Oct 20, 06:55:00 PM 2011 
 Thanks, but no thanks said...
Raz,
Very selective about the Darwin comments I see.
Yes, you are probably right. But people are people, and most arguments are delivered using selective information. That includes most arguments in favour of a God, as well as most of those not in favour.
At the end of the day, belief in God is incumbent upon faith, and nothing more. There is no proof, nor even any overwhelming evidence. Just faith.
There is, however, no doubt that the Ichneumonid wasp exists.
Thu Oct 20, 07:05:00 PM 2011 
 Michael Ejercito said...
I can explain why someone would worship God.
God is the personification of Absolute, Untrammeled Power, the Power to define reality itself. He has the power to cast His enemies into an inescapable, everlasting torture chamber where they will be tormented in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb, the smoke of their torment will arise forever and ever, and they shall have no rest day nor night. We can not cast Him into an inescapable, everlasting torture chamber, stop Him from casting anyone else there, or rescue anyone from there. His might makes right.
Fri Oct 21, 09:47:00 AM 2011 
 Karl said...
One excuse is as good as another to avoid facing the facts of the Creator.
Here is a science piece though: http://www.imperial.ac.uk/college.asp?P=2753
Mon Nov 04, 01:36:00 PM 2013 
 JDavis109 said...
A believer would say those are soul-less insects, so the example is meaningless. Just be grateful to God that he did not create heron-sized Ichneumons to parasitize humans. (Of course he did create other horrible human parasites like schistosomas, so maybe he is a sadist!)
Wed Feb 12, 09:48:00 PM 2014 
 bob said...
The atheist comedy show.
"Yeah, they're pretty cool, aren't they? I've never seen one oviposit before, but it is one of my goals in life. I understand, though, that they are pretty vulnerable at that time and can't just fly away when their ovipositor is stuck a cm or so into tree bark. Here's what Borror and Delong's Study of Insects says about it."
So if God made it and everything went pear shaped as God predicted that it would if Adam, the first man, disobeyed Him, then why, all of a sudden, is it "cool" that YOUR 'god', namely, 'evolution' can be a cruel and merciless, but you do not criticise 'him' one iota, but instead you are subservient to and actually bless this pagan god of yours?
Can you not see your own blind subservience to your pagan god, while you, at the same time, hypocritically point the finger at those who believe in the Biblical Creator of heaven and earth?
And you jokers call US crazy. What a laugh.
Mon Feb 24, 12:23:00 AM 2014 
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 06 February 2014Alma 3: God Set a Mark Upon Them
The war was over. The Nephites buried their dead quickly, where they died, without even counting them. There were too many to count.
And it came to pass that the Nephites who were not slain by the weapons of war, after having buried those who had been slain -- now the number of the slain were not numbered, because of the greatness of their number -- after they had finished burying their dead they all returned to their lands, and to their houses, and their wives, and their children. 3.1
When the soldiers returned home, things had changed. Many of their wives and children were dead, the crops were trampled, and even some of their flocks were killed.
Now many women and children had been slain with the sword, and also many of their flocks and their herds; and also many of their fields of grain were destroyed, for they were trodden down by the hosts of men. 3.2
But that's enough about the Nephites for now. Let's talk about the Amlicites and Lamanites a bit more. How do you know one when you see one? That's easy: the Amlicites put a mark on their heads, and they don't shave their heads. Lamanites shave their heads, and don't wear any clothes besides leather loincloths and armor.
And the Amlicites were distinguished from the Nephites, for they had marked themselves with red in their foreheads after the manner of the Lamanites; nevertheless they had not shorn their heads like unto the Lamanites. 3.4
Now the heads of the Lamanites were shorn; and they were naked, save it were skin which was girded about their loins, and also their armor, which was girded about them, and their bows, and their arrows, and their stones, and their slings, and so forth. 3.5
Lamanites also have dark skin. God cursed them and turned them dark because their ancestors (Laman and Lemuel) rebelled against their brothers: Nephi, Jacob, Joseph and Sam.
And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob, and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men. 3.6
And their brethren sought to destroy them, therefore they were cursed; and the Lord God set a mark upon them, yea, upon Laman and Lemuel, and also the sons of Ishmael, and Ishmaelitish women. 3.7
The mark is also intended to keep the Nephites from "mixing" with the Lamanites.
And this was done that their seed might be distinguished from the seed of their brethren, that thereby the Lord God might preserve his people, that they might not mix and believe in incorrect traditions which would prove their destruction. 3.8
God will mark any children resulting from Nephite/Lamanite sex. He will also mark anyone who is otherwise "Led away" by the Lamanites.
 And it came to pass that whosoever did mingle his seed with that of the Lamanites did bring the same curse upon his seed. 3.9
Therefore, whosoever suffered himself to be led away by the Lamanites was called under that head, and there was a mark set upon him. 3.10
All of these things are reiterated many times. I'm guessing this will be on the test.
Now we will return again to the Amlicites, for they also had a mark set upon them; yea, they set the mark upon themselves, yea, even a mark of red upon their foreheads. 3.13
Thus the word of God is fulfilled, for these are the words which he said to Nephi: Behold, the Lamanites have I cursed, and I will set a mark on them that they and their seed may be separated from thee and thy seed, from this time henceforth and forever, except they repent of their wickedness and turn to me that I may have mercy upon them. 3.14
 And again: I will set a mark upon him that mingleth his seed with thy brethren, that they may be cursed also. 3.15
 And again, I say he that departeth from thee shall no more be called thy seed; and I will bless thee, and whomsoever shall be called thy seed, henceforth and forever; and these were the promises of the Lord unto Nephi and to his seed. 3.17
Are there any questions? Good. Okay, back to the story.
A few days after their big defeat, the Lamanites decide they want to try again. They send another army to the same battlefield that the Amlicites first fought in, and are quickly defeated again. Shucks!
Now it came to pass that not many days after the battle which was fought in the land of Zarahemla, by the Lamanites and the Amlicites, that there was another army of the Lamanites came in upon the people of Nephi, in the same place where the first army met the Amlicites. 3.20
But he sent up a numerous army against them; and they went up and slew many of the Lamanites, and drove the remainder of them out of the borders of their land. 3.23
So there was peace in the land again. For "a time".
And then they returned again and began to establish peace in the land, being troubled no more for a time with their enemies. 3.24
Probably until the next chapter.






Posted by Philip Wells at 2/06/2014 03:47:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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 03 February 2014Apparently God has changed his mind about the Seahawks
I guess it shouldn't surprise us anymore. God has changed his mind about lots of things.
In the 19th century, he changed his mind about slavery; in the 20th century, he changed his mind about women's rights; in the 21st century, he seems to be changing his mind (or perhaps "evolving") on the topic of homosexuality. And now, in 2014, he has changed his mind about the Seahawks.
It's hard to make predictions with such a changeable god.
As I pointed out in my failed Super Bowl prophecy, God hates the Seahawks. Or at least he did when he said these words:
And these are they which ye shall have in abomination among the fowls ... they are an abomination: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray. Leviticus 11:13. ("Ospray" in the KJV refers to the osprey or "Sea Hawk.")
And yet the Seahawks won the Super Bowl 43:8.
How could this happen?
The answer lies (somehow) in Isaiah 43:8.
Bring forth the blind people that have eyes, and the deaf that have ears.
Sometimes you have to look at a verse just right, while cocking your head just so, until it's meaning becomes clear. And when you do that with this verse while applying it to yesterday's Super Bowl Game, you get Seahawks 43, Broncos 8 (with the chapter and verse number corresponding to the score, and the book to Isaiah Kacyvenski, a former linebacker for the Seattle Seahawks).
For as Jesus supposedly said to someone, "Blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear."
Or something like that.

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9 Feb 14 update: As Roland points out in the comments, the Seahawks have a deaf fullback on their team named Derek Coleman, which perfectly completes this amazing post-hoc Bible prophecy. The Bible predicted the exact score of this year's Super Bowl! It just goes to show that the Bible never fails to predict every event. You just have to have the proper faith and look hard enough after the event occurs for the hidden message buried beneath the much more obvious absurdities and contradictions.
Posted by Steve Wells at 2/03/2014 05:42:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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8 comments:
 Christian said...
Perfect, absolutely brilliant. This is how I imagine a lot of Christians interpret their Bible with a head tilt, a shot of absinthe and a lot of creativity. :)
Mon Feb 03, 11:16:00 PM 2014 
 Stephen said...
It may be more than a "tilt" that's needed for some of the stuff in the bible!
Steve Weeks
Tue Feb 04, 03:51:00 AM 2014 
 TheEngineer said...
Wait, the EAGLE is an abomination? God hates the beautiful bird that represents our nation?
Why God? Why do you hate America?
Tue Feb 04, 01:54:00 PM 2014 
 Stephen said...
Remember that god hates lots of things: fags, flags, figs... there'e an almost endless list!
Steve Weeks
Wed Feb 05, 07:26:00 AM 2014 
 Stephen said...
"...there's an almost endless list!"
D'oh! proof-reading FAIL!
Steve Weeks
Wed Feb 05, 07:27:00 AM 2014 
 TheEngineer said...
You're right Stephen. It is a long list.
Looks like Congress adopted the Eagle as our symbol in 1782 (http://www.baldeagleinfo.com/eagle/eagle9.html) which is clearly AFTER God let the world know how he felt about eagles.
I wonder what fundies say about our supposed christian founding fathers adopting an abomination as our national symbol
Wed Feb 05, 08:04:00 AM 2014 
 Roland said...
Don't forget, the Seahawks have a deaf fullback. "and the deaf that have ears"... Indeed! ;-)
Sat Feb 08, 03:50:00 PM 2014 
 Steve Wells said...
Thanks Roland! I didn't know about Derek Coleman, the Seahawks' deaf fullback. Now the Bible's prophecy makes perfect sense! Glory!
Sun Feb 09, 01:54:00 PM 2014 
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Dwindling In Unbelief



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 01 February 2014Biblical Super Bowl Prophecy: Broncos 21, Seahawks 17
There's an interesting Christian Post article entitled Fifteen Bible Verses that suggest the Denver Broncos will win the Super Bowl.
And the article is right about that: the Bible predicts that the Broncos will win. But does it also predict the score? I think it does, and here's how.
The outcome of the game is fairly obvious, since the Bible tells us how God feels about broncos and seahawks. And on that there is simply no contest. God hates seahawks and loves broncos.
How do we know that God hates seahawks? Well "seahawk" is one of the nicknames for the osprey (Pandion haliaetus). And here's what God said about the osprey ("ospray" in the King James Version):
And these are they which ye shall have in abomination among the fowls ... they are an abomination: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray. Leviticus 11:13.
Okay, but how about broncos? Well, the Bible doesn't use the word "bronco" but it does talk about horses. And in the Bible, God seems to like them. Here's what he says about them in the Book of Job.
Hast thou given the horse strength? hast thou clothed his neck with thunder? Canst thou make him afraid as a grasshopper? the glory of his nostrils is terrible ... He mocketh at fear, and is not affrighted. Job 39:18-22
So the Bible says that broncos are strong, brave, glorious, and fearless; ospreys are abominations. So it seems there's really no need to play tomorrow's game. The Broncos will win, if God has anything to say about it. (And God has something to say about every football game.)
Okay, so the Bible predicts a Bronco win. But by how much?
Well, that's easy. We just count up the number of verses that favor each team.
Here are the verses that favor the Seahawks.
Dan [Tony McDaniel] shall be a serpent ... that biteth the horse heels. Genesis 49:17
When thou goest out to battle ... and seest horses ... be not afraid of them. Deuteronomy 20:1
Be not afraid because of them ... thou shalt hough their horses. Joshua 11:6, 9
They arose and fled in the twilight, and left ... their horses ... and fled for their life. 2 Kings 7:7
Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle. Psalm 32:9
An horse is a vain thing for safety: neither shall he deliver any by his great strength. Psalm 33:17
(Is this verse referring to Rahim Moore, the Bronco's safety?)
He delighteth not in the strength of the horse: he taketh not pleasure in the legs of a man. Psalm 147:10
A whip for the horse. Proverbs 26:3
[The Broncos will get whipped?]
Their horses ... shall become as women. Jeremiah 50:37
They are cruel, and will not shew mercy: their voice shall roar like the sea, and they shall ride upon horses. Jeremiah 6:23, 50:42
[The roaring sea-like voice refers to Seattle's 12th man, and the Seahawks will ride the Broncos as though they were horses.]
With thee will I break in pieces the horse. Jeremiah 51:21
I ... have taken away your horses; and I have made the stink of your camps to come up unto your nostrils. Amos 4:10
Shall horses run upon the rock? Amos 6:12
[An obvious reference to Bobby Wagner, the rock of the Seahawks' defense.]
And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD, that I will cut off thy horses. Micah 5:10
[When the Broncos come to pass, the Legion of Boom will cut it off.]
In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment ... and will smite every horse .. with blindness. Zechariah 12:4
And he answered, saying, My name is Legion [of Boom]: for we are many. Mark 5:9, Luke 8:30
These ... shall give their power and strength unto the beast. Revelation 17:13
And here are the verses that favor the Broncos.
Behold, there appeared ... horses of fire. 2 Kings 2:11
The LORD had made ... a noise of horses, even the noise of a great host. 2 Kings 7:6
The horse is prepared against the day of battle. Proverbs 21:31
Their horses' hoofs shall be counted like flint. Isaiah 5:28
That led them ... as an horse in the wilderness, that they should not stumble. Isaiah 63:13
His horses are swifter than eagles [or Seahawks]. Woe unto us! for we are spoiled. Jeremiah 4:13
The snorting of his horses was heard ... the whole land trembled at the sound of the neighing of his strong ones. Jeremiah 8:16
How canst thou contend with horses? Jeremiah 12:5
Harness the horses ... and stand forth with your helmets. Jeremiah 46:4
Come up, ye horses; and rage ... let the mighty men come forth. Jeremiah 46:9
At the noise of the stamping of the hoofs of his strong horses.... Jeremiah 47:3
The horses to come up as the rough caterpillars. Jeremiah 51:27
No ... foot of beast shall pass through it. Ezekiel 29:11
[The Bronco defense will stop the Beast (Marshawn Lynch).]
Their horses also are swifter than the leopards, and are more fierce than the evening wolves. Habakkuk 1:8
Thou didst walk through the sea[hawks] with thine horses. Habakkuk 3:15
The LORD of hosts ... hath made them as his goodly horse in the battle. Zechariah 10:3
And I saw, and behold a white horse ... and he went forth conquering, and to conquer. Revelation 6:2
The heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone. Revelation 9:17
And I saw ... them that had gotten the victory over the beast. Revelation 15:2
[The Broncos will get victory over the beast (Marshawn Lynch) and the Seahawks.]
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse. Revelation 19:1
The armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses. Revelation 19:14
So the final score will be: Broncos 21, Seahawks 17.
Posted by Steve Wells at 2/01/2014 03:55:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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5 comments:
 Stephen said...
O, Man... if thy prophesy cometh to pass, thou hast some explaining to do!
LOL!
Steve Weeks
Sat Feb 01, 06:05:00 PM 2014 
 Cale Meeks said...
What about this post by the same author that says the opposite?
Sun Feb 02, 07:54:00 AM 2014 
 Stephen said...
Cale... as if god really has anything to do with it. <_<
If god is influencing the outcome of football games, I think he's got better things to do.
Steve Weeks
Sun Feb 02, 04:58:00 PM 2014 
 Stephen said...
Well, as it's the 3rd quarter and the SeaHawks are ahead 29-0, it's safe to say bible interpretation isn't a very good way to predict the way the world works. File this one with James Ussher and Harold Camping! LOL.
Steve Weeks
Sun Feb 02, 06:08:00 PM 2014 
 Bill Forward said...
On a related note: I came across a survey recently about prayer and game outcomes. Now, it's fairly common and nothing new to pray for a team to win, especially if you are on a team playing or emotiuonally connected in some way. What I find disturbing is that somewhere between 20% and 30% of the respondents actually thought "God" had a definite choice for a team to win.
It boggles my mind that people who believe in a personal deity would picture such as being concerned with *anything* other than the health and safety of the players and whether or not "fair play" was followed throughout the game (and the like).
Mon Feb 03, 09:31:00 AM 2014 
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Dwindling In Unbelief



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 21 March 2014Bill Maher: Holy Ship (and Drunk With Blood)
In case you missed it last week, here it is again for you.


And here's a tweet that Bill Maher sent today.













Thanks Bill!
Posted by Steve Wells at 3/21/2014 09:57:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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5 comments:
 Stephen said...
About time you got some mainstream publicity for DWB!
Congrats!
Steve Weeks
Sat Mar 22, 06:37:00 AM 2014 
 Stephen said...
Just got around to watching this. Major Lawlzzz!
Steve Weeks
Sun Mar 23, 07:36:00 PM 2014 
 Christian said...
Glad to see the publicity. I was amused by the outrage Maher received over this, as he really was just being honest. I suppose the truth hurts.
Mon Mar 24, 12:25:00 AM 2014 
 Lifestyles 2012 said...
Nice - Bill Maher gave you a shout out. Hope that helps you sell some books. Sounds like both him and you are really upset that God destroyed so many. Somewhere in the bible it talks about how angels and likely demons came down to earth and multiplied with women. They created giants and stuff. World full of crazy giants and sons of Cane. Jesus linage came from Seth which came from Noah. Pick the crop and burn the weeds. Sorry you think God was destroying innocent babies. Those babies may have grown up to be the worst of man. Don't think I have a cruel heart. It all just makes sense. That's why there are comments - he was good in his times. We may consider him to be bad for our times. Remember - we are all improving. But honestly Steve - congratulations for your about out. I am sure it made you feel good.
Mon Apr 21, 06:50:00 PM 2014 
 Stephen said...
"Sorry you think God was destroying innocent babies. Those babies may have grown up to be the worst of man."
How about applying this line of thinking to terminating pregnancies resulting from rape or incest? Do you even think about what you are saying? Using "god's will" as a justification for the destruction of the unborn is beyond heartless; it's evil.
Luckily, the biblical flood is a myth. If it were true, god would be the greatest mass-murderer in history.
Steve Weeks
Fri Apr 25, 07:57:00 AM 2014 
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Dwindling In Unbelief



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 11 March 2014According the the Book of Mormon, Jesus is his own father
Joseph Smith was a bit confused about the relationship between Jesus and his father.
He saw the two of them together in his very first vision. Here's how he described it:
I retired to a secret place in a grove and began to call upon the Lord, while fervently engaged in supplication my mind was taken away from the objects with which I was surrounded, and I was enwrapped in a heavenly vision and saw two glorious personages who exactly resembled each other in features, and likeness, surrounded with a brilliant light which eclipsed the sun at noon-day. (Times and Seasons, Volume 3, pp.706-7)
And although in this account, the identical-looking "glorious personages" were not identified by name, he named them in another account.
I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! (Joseph Smith-History, 1:17)
Here's a picture that someone took of the event.


(I'm not sure, but I think Jesus is on the left and his dad is on right, since the guy on the right seems to be pointing at the other guy. But you should ask a Mormon, just to be sure.)
So Jesus and his father are, or at least look like, identical twins.
Or maybe they they are the same person. That's why they appear identical, just like the Book of Mormon repeatedly and clearly states.
Here are the verses that I've found so far that say that Jesus is his own father, but let me know if I missed any.
He shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth. Mosiah 3:8
He shall be called the Son of God ... being the Father and the Son -- The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth. Mosiah 15:2-4
Is the Son of God the very Eternal Father? Yea, he is the very Eternal Father. Alma 11:38-39
Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and of earth. Helaman 14:12
He be the Son of God, the Father of heaven and of earth. Helaman 16:18
Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. Ether 3:14
He that will not believe me will not believe the Father who sent me. For behold, I am the Father. Ether 4:12
Posted by Steve Wells at 3/11/2014 10:24:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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11 comments:
 P Hayes said...
Isn't Elohim the Master Father, and Jesus the Father of Earth? Doesn't every planet have it's own "Father", all of whom report to Elohim?
Tue Mar 11, 12:26:00 PM 2014 
 P Hayes said...
Damn autocorrect: "its"
Tue Mar 11, 12:27:00 PM 2014 
 Steve Wells said...
Yeah, P Hayes, that might be right. It's hard to keep Mormon beliefs straight.
But who were the two identical-looking guys that started it all in Joseph Smith's first vision?
Tue Mar 11, 12:56:00 PM 2014 
 Stephen said...
"But who were the two identical-looking guys that started it all in Joseph Smith's first vision?"
Well, your guess (or scripture) is as good as mine, Steve, but we know Joseph Smith couldn't possibly have been seeing double. How could he have worked the Seer Stones?
Steve Weeks
Tue Mar 11, 06:19:00 PM 2014 
 Mark Peña said...
I'm very much inspired by this blog. I've actually made one that aims to answer questions by theists. nonworshiper.blogspot.com
Wed Mar 12, 02:23:00 AM 2014 
 Travis Whitted said...
"I am my own grandpa."- Christ
Sun Mar 16, 06:53:00 AM 2014 
 Nathan said...
If Mary didn't contribute any genes at all, why was her involvement necessary?
Sun Mar 16, 02:40:00 PM 2014 
 Andrew Schlichte said...
I grow up in a devout Mormon family but am an atheist now. Mormons are very vocal about not believing in the trinity , Mormons believe Jesus and god are separate beings .
Sat Mar 22, 11:04:00 AM 2014 
 David Gates said...
Hi Steve,
Interesting post. I just never thought this was very confusing. I’m thinking you are addressing two separate issues but are combining them in a way to make them more confusing than they really are. One is the use of the words Father and Son, as though we were talking about biology. You become a father because you have (bear) a son. But here in the Book of Mormon, which you’ve quoted, we’re giving credit to Jesus Christ for being a Father as a title. Like Ben Franklin is the ‘father’ of electricity. Henry Ford is the ‘father’ of the automobile. We use that phrase often. Like Madison is the father of the Constitution. Nobody mistakes those titles, for their being sons to their own natural fathers.
Since we believe that Jesus created the heavens and earth, he can rightfully be called the ‘Father’ of heaven and earth, without infringing on his relationship with God the Father.
Likewise, he is the author of the gospel. Or, The Father of Salvation. He wrote the ‘book’. He gets credit for that.
Further, and probably most importantly, if you give your child life, you’re his father. Jesus’ atonement will ultimately give us eternal life, ‘literally’, so he changes in his role from our brother, to our Father. He will ultimately bear us. He will ultimately give us life. That role is as literal in the eternities as our mothers who gave us mortal life.
The part about Heavenly Father and Jesus looking alike, was not just made up by Joseph Smith although I’m sure he experienced it. That concept is right out of the New Testament, long before the First Vision occurred. Hebrews 1 says:
God, … Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, … when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
The express image of his person. That seems rather clear to me that they both look exactly alike. What’s more, it’s a pretty good list of what God the Father had Jesus do.
He appointed him Heir of all things
Had him create all the worlds
Purged all our sins
Sat down on the right hand of God.
Even Isaiah refers to Jesus by several titles, made famous in the Hallelujah chorus including The Everlasting Father, and the Prince of Peace. Great titles. In the end, I don’t think Joseph Smith was confused at all.
Steve, you seem like a really nice guy. And bright too. I completely understand that part of your platform is to poke fun at the Church and it’s members. Goodness knows, there’s a lot to poke fun of. LDS folks are peculiar people in many ways.
But your dwindling in unbelief suggests that you once had belief. Who knows what caused it to start to erode. It just seems a little sad to see you use your substantial brain, and considerable wit, to erode the faith of others.
Ultimately, there is nothing the believer can say to dissuade the unbeliever. Nor can the unbeliever mount sufficient evidence to definitely PROVE his position to the believer. Ultimately they are on exactly equal debate footing, neither having sufficient empirical evidence to outmaneuver the other. I believe that this is because the Lord has set it up to be a trial of our faith more than a trial of our reasoning. Empirical evidence doesn’t change behavior or conviction. That’s not how we come unto Christ. We must do it spiritually. And this eludes the cynic.
These parts about Jesus being the Father and the Son, and a thousand other things in the Book of Mormon have strengthened my faith, rather than diminishing it. Learning more and more about Joseph Smith’s teachings has fortified my faith, rather than causing it to dwindle. Funny how reading many of the same things as you, has had exactly the opposite effect on my beliefs.
Thanks again for some very interesting posts.
Sat Apr 19, 12:45:00 AM 2014 
 Stephen said...
"It just seems a little sad to see you use your substantial brain, and considerable wit, to erode the faith of others."
He probably wouldn't feel the need if it weren't for some groups, not least of all mormons, who insist on proselytizing for their religion and promoting it in the public square.
Sound familiar? ;-)
Steve Weeks
Sun Apr 20, 07:24:00 PM 2014 
 Lifestyles 2012 said...
Steve - I'm not a Mormon and to be honest - am not really a knower of their beliefs. But what you are saying is that he saw Jesus and His father and they looked identical. Christians believe Jesus is basically God. Muslims will kill you if you say that but they say that at the end of days Jesus is gonna kick Satans tail so Jesus must be pretty cool. I think in the end God is giving Jesus the power to judge us. I love Jesus and maybe what Joseph Smith saw was that Jesus and God are the same. Maybe they have the same DNA. Half God - Half Mary (linage to David, Abraham, Noah, Seth, and Adam.
Mon Apr 21, 07:01:00 PM 2014 
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What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
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 09 March 2014Alma 11: How much is a Senine of gold worth?
The Law of Mosiah established a basic legal system to deal with disputes (mostly financial disputes from the sound of it). A plaintiff could bring a case to the Judges, and then the accused person would be brought to the courtroom for a trial. Pretty basic stuff.
Now if a man owed another, and he would not pay that which he did owe, he was complained of to the judge; and the judge executed authority, and sent forth officers that the man should be brought before him; and he judged the man according to the law and the evidences which were brought against him, and thus the man was compelled to pay that which he owed, or be stripped, or be cast out from among the people as a thief and a robber. 11.2
More importantly, though, was how the Judges were compensated. They were paid one "Senine"of gold per day that they spent in court trying cases.
Now it was in the law of Mosiah that every man who was a judge of the law, or those who were appointed to be judges, should receive wages according to the time which they labored to judge those who were brought before them to be judged. 11.1
And the judge received for his wages according to his time -- a senine of gold for a day, or a senum of silver, which is equal to a senine of gold; and this is according to the law which was given. 11.3
You might be asking yourself: "Is that a fair amount? How much is a senine, really?" Good question. Luckily Joseph Smith has an answer for us.
A Senine of gold = a Senum of silver = A measure of barley (or any other grain)
A seon of gold = 2 senines of gold
A shum of gold = 2 seons of gold
A limnah of gold = the value of them all*
*Most people interpret this as a limnah being worth 1 senine + 1 seon + one shum, or 7 senines.
11.5-11.10
(Also, it's worth noting that a person could become rich very quickly speculating on the Nephite commodities market, since all crop prices were pegged to their coinage.)
And for silver they had names, too!
An amnor of silver = 2 senums
An ezrom of silver = 2 ammors
An Onti of silver = the value of them all.
And for smaller amounts they had awesome, made-up sounding names, too:
A shiblon of silver = 1/2 senum
A shiblum of silver = 1/2 shiblom
A leah of silver = 1/2 shiblum
Also, just in case we needed a unit for gold that was equal to 1.5 senines, they invented the antion of gold, which was worth 3 shibloms of silver (1.5 senums, which are equal to 1.5 senines of gold). I wish we had a 1.5 dollar bill!
Okay, good. So how much were the Judges paid, and was it a fair amount?
For an honest day's work, a Judge could be paid:
A.) 1 senine of gold
B.) 1 senum of silver
C.) 1 measure of barley
D.) 1 measure of any other grain
E.) 1/2 amnor of silver
F.) 1/4 ezrom of silver
G.) 1/7 onti of silver
H.) 2 shiblons of silver
I.) 4 shiblums of silver
J.) 8 leahs of silver
K.) 2/3 antion of gold
L.) 1/2 seon of gold
M.) 1/4 shum of gold
N.) 1/7 leah of gold
So they had plenty of options. But we still don't really have a good idea of how much these coins were worth, unless we figure out how much a "measure of barley" is. Some people have claimed that a "measure" is as much as 6 bushels. If so, then a Judge was being paid quite well for his day of work.
I suppose they could also have paid the judges with change, like 1/8 ezrom of silver and a half measure of barley, but that would have been rude with all of the other options. (None of these coins have ever been found, by the way.)
But on with the story.
You see, the judges were greedy people, and they convinced the people to file frivolous lawsuits, because they wanted more work.
Now, it was for the sole purpose to get gain, because they received their wages according to their employ, therefore, they did stir up the people to riotings, and all manner of disturbances and wickedness, that they might have more employ, that they might get money according to the suits which were brought before them; therefore they did stir up the people against Alma and Amulek. 11.20
Remember Zeezrom from the last chapter? He was the clever lawyer that was out to get Alma and Amulek. Zeezrom asked Amulek if he could ask him a few questions. Amulek agreed, and Zeezrom tried to bribe him to deny the existence of God. He offered him six onties of silver!
And this Zeezrom began to question Amulek, saying: Will ye answer me a few questions which I shall ask you? Now Zeezrom was a man who was expert in the devices of the devil, that he might destroy that which was good; therefore, he said unto Amulek: Will ye answer the questions which I shall put unto you? 11.21
And Amulek said unto him: Yea, if it be according to the Spirit of the Lord, which is in me; for I shall say nothing which is contrary to the Spirit of the Lord. And Zeezrom said unto him: Behold, here are six onties of silver, and all these will I give thee if thou wilt deny the existence of a Supreme Being. 11.22
Amulek didn't take him up on his kind offer. Zeezrom continued to question Amulek about God, and he continued to answer him. Then he explained how everyone is going to resurrected to be judged by God.
Now Amulek said: O thou child of hell, why tempt ye me? Knowest thou that the righteous yieldeth to no such temptations? 11.23
And Zeezrom said unto him: Thou sayest there is a true and living God? 11.26
And Amulek said: Yea, there is a true and living God. 11.27
Now Zeezrom said unto him again: How knowest thou these things? 11.30
And he said: An angel hath made them known unto me. 11.31
And Zeezrom said again: Shall he save his people in their sins? And Amulek answered and said unto him: I say unto you he shall not, for it is impossible for him to deny his word. 11.34
Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: Is the Son of God the very Eternal Father? 11.38
And Amulek said unto him: Yea, he is the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth, and all things which in them are; he is the beginning and the end, the first and the last; 11.39
After this little speech, everyone was astonished, and Zeezrom trembled. And that's the end of the chapter, or at least all that he bothered to write down.
Now, when Amulek had finished these words the people began again to be astonished, and also Zeezrom began to tremble. And thus ended the words of Amulek, or this is all that I have written. 11.46
Posted by Philip Wells at 3/09/2014 03:24:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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4 comments:
 Stephen said...
Hahahaha! There's a fellow who could *really* have used the Metric System.
Steve Weeks
Mon Mar 10, 05:23:00 PM 2014 
 Stephen said...
How the heck are you going to tithe using units like those??
Steve Weeks
Mon Mar 10, 08:20:00 PM 2014 
 Philip Wells said...
Being the honest person I am, I would always just tithe a "measure" of grain for every 10 Senines I earned. At the end of they month the church would just get a big pile of grain.
Maybe I'd even throw in a little extra for good measure.
Mon Mar 10, 09:40:00 PM 2014 
 Nathan said...
Does this have anything to do with why Glenn Beck is so obsessed with gold coins?
Sat Mar 15, 06:17:00 PM 2014 
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 05 March 2014With the Bird Bible, your family will never be bored with scripture again!
Not too long ago, I added a boring category to the Skeptic's Annotated Bible to mark the Bible's more boring sections. One of them was the 40th chapter of the book of Exodus, which includes these exciting and inspiring verses:
And it came to pass in the first month in the second year, on the first day of the month, that the tabernacle was reared up. And Moses reared up the tabernacle, and fastened his sockets, and set up the boards thereof, and put in the bars thereof, and reared up his pillars. Exodus 40:17-18
But now there's a new Bible that fills even the Bible's most boring passages with the excitement that you always wished was there. It's called "The Bird Bible."
Here's an ad for it:
I can't wait until I see how the Bird Bible handles the first nine chapters of First Chronicles!
Posted by Steve Wells at 3/05/2014 12:26:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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2 comments:
 Stephen said...
That would be a lot of names!
But just think about how tasty all those birds that god roasted would be. Mmmmmm! There's a feast in 2 Kings 1:10-12 all by itself!
I saw this last Saturday. LOL! It's probably not well received in the Bible Belt, though.
Steve Weeks
Thu Mar 06, 11:03:00 AM 2014 
 Sacha Weis said...
Whether the bible is acted out by humans, birds, or ogres it is still the bible and by its very nature boring. Are we going to have a nest full of eggs for the so-and-so begot so-and-so part? It still wouldn't be exciting.
Sun Mar 30, 12:57:00 PM 2014 
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 01 March 2014Yes Elder Price, the Mormon church still believes that you'll get your own planet
"I believe that God has a plan for all of us. I believe that plan involves me getting my own planet."
This is a quote from Elder Price in the "Book of Mormon" musical.
If you haven't heard the song that this quote it is taken from ("I Believe"), you should. It's a good and fair summary of Mormon belief.

Of course, it's also very funny, as are most Mormon beliefs.
But the LDS church isn't laughing; it's trying to find a way to tell non-Mormons that it doesn't teach the things that Elder Price believes, yet do it in a way that won't upset Elder Price and other Mormon believers too much. That's a difficult task, but judging from the news articles that reported on the LDS church's latest attempt, they've managed to pull it off.
[See for example ABC News: No, People Don't Get Own Planets in Afterlife Like in 'Book of Mormon', HuffingtonPost: Mormon Church Dispels Planet Afterlife Misconception Fostered By 'Book Of Mormon' Broadway Show, and The Wire: Mormons Don't Technically Get a Planet Once They Die, Say Mormons]
The article (Becoming LIke a God) on the official LDS website uses 3500 words to carefully dance around the topic it is trying hard to avoid -- which is, of course, Elder Price's belief that he will one day get his very own planet.
This is as close as it gets to addressing the topic:
Latter-day Saints’ doctrine of exaltation is often similarly reduced in media to a cartoonish image of people receiving their own planets.
Notice that the quote doesn't deny that the LDS doctrine of exaltation implies that people will receive their own planets. It just says that this belief has been made into a cartoonish idea in the media. And it has. Here, for example, is a cartoon that fully explains the LDS doctrine of exaltation.

And while I can't verify that all of the beliefs mentioned in the above cartoon are taught by the LDS church, I can verify that it still teaches Elder Price's planetary belief. (Or it did 15 years ago, anyway.)
And how do I know this? Well, in 1999 my wife attended a (for credit) LDS Seminary class at Idaho State University in 1999 call "Achieving a Celestial Marriage." It used a student manual with the same title, from which the below quotes were taken.
p.129
GOD WAS ONCE A MORTAL MAN
(1-2) He lived on an Earth like Our Own
"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. ..." (Smith, Teachings, p. 345.)
GOD IS NOW AN EXALTED MAN WITH POWERS OF ETERNAL INCREASE
(1-4) Our Father in Heaven Lives in an Exalted Marriage Relationship
p.132
(1-9) Celestial Marriage Makes It Possible for Us to Claim Or Mortal Children in Eternity As Well As to Propagate Ourselves Throughout Eternity
"[A]ll who attain to this glory will have the blessing of the continuation of the 'seeds' forever. ... [T]hey will have a posterity that will be as innumerable as the stars of heaven.
To become like him we must have all the powers of godhood; thus a man and his wife when glorified will have spirit children who eventually will go on an earth like this one.... We will become gods and have jurisdiction over worlds, and these worlds will be peopled by our own offspring. ..." (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:43-44, 48.) [My emphasis.]
(1-20) SUMMARY
As shown in this chapter, our Father in heaven was once a man as we are now ... he and our mother in heaven were empowered to give birth to spirit children.... We are those spirit children.
So don't worry, Elder Price. The LDS church still believes that you'll get that planet. (They just don't want to talk about it in front of the Gentiles.)
Posted by Steve Wells at 3/01/2014 03:47:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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2 comments:
 MTgunfighter said...
What I've always loved about the BoM play is the subtle dig at stereotypes... Their hair is way too long and the mishies never wear black ties. Never.
On the planet, etc. The history of the church is full of 'later day prophets' contradicting the 'most perfect book in history' (BoM). It's called expediency–let's say we aren't going to practice polygamy so we can get statehood or this whole no priesthood for black people is getting us down and might cost us our tax exempt status, so let's have another revelation from god...
To parry the belief that mormons are weird, then just disavow the 'weird' beliefs.
It's not like mormons aren't used to being lied to...
Sun Mar 02, 08:33:00 AM 2014 
 MTgunfighter said...
Although, if the missionaries did wear black ties, they would look like the Blues Brothers... Which would be cool. The Blues Brothers were on a mission from god, too...
Sun Mar 02, 08:35:00 AM 2014 
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 23 April 2014Alma 15: The Healing of Zeezrom
In the last chapter, Alma and Amulek used the power of God to escape from prison in Ammonihah. The walls of the prison split open and fell on their enemies, killing them instantly.

Right after they busted out of the joint, though, they were commanded to go to the city of Sidon. The Book of Mormon doesn't specify who commanded them, but it must have been God because everyone else in the city was either already dead or shaking with fear.
When they arrived in Sidon, they found their followers who had been thrown out of the city.
And it came to pass that Alma and Amulek were commanded to depart out of that city; and they departed, and came out even into the land of Sidom; and behold, there they found all the people who had departed out of the land of Ammonihah, who had been cast out and stoned, because they believed in the words of Alma. 15.1
They explained what had happened to their wives and children (they had been burned to death). They also told them about their daring escape. I'm sure that even in their moment of grief, they were pretty impressed with the prison break story.
And they related unto them all that had happened unto their wives and children, and also concerning themselves, and of their power of deliverance. 15.2
 As it turns out, Zeezrom was in Sidon, too. He was sick with a fever that was caused by guilt. He thought that Alma and Amulek were dead, and he blamed himself for their death. When he saw them come into town, he sent a message calling for them to come see him.
And also Zeezrom lay sick at Sidom, with a burning fever, which was caused by the great tribulations of his mind on account of his wickedness, for he supposed that Alma and Amulek were no more; and he supposed that they had been slain because of his iniquity. And this great sin, and his many other sins, did harrow up his mind until it did become exceedingly sore, having no deliverance; therefore he began to be scorched with a burning heat. 15.3
Now, when he heard that Alma and Amulek were in the land of Sidom, his heart began to take courage; and he sent a message immediately unto them, desiring them to come unto him. 15.4
When Alma and Amulek arrived at Zeezrom's bed, they saw he was in pretty bad shape. He asked them to heal him, and Alma asked him if he believed in Christ's power of salvation.
And it came to pass that they went immediately, obeying the message which he had sent unto them; and they went in unto the house unto Zeezrom; and they found him upon his bed, sick, being very low with a burning fever; and his mind also was exceedingly sore because of his iniquities; and when he saw them he stretched forth his hand, and besought them that they would heal him. 15.5
And it came to pass that Alma said unto him, taking him by the hand: Believest thou in the power of Christ unto salvation? 15.6
Zeezrom answered: "Yup! I believe everything you taught me."
And he answered and said: Yea, I believe all the words that thou hast taught.  15.7
But that didn't quite do it for Alma. He wanted to make sure, so he asked him again.
And Alma said: If thou believest in the redemption of Christ thou canst be healed. 15.8
Zeezrom probably would have agreed to anything at this point. He answers, again, "Yup! I believe."
And he said: Yea, I believe according to thy words. 15.9
Alma asks God to heal him "According to his faith". Apparently Zeezrom's faith passes the test, because he instantly leaps out of his bed. Glory! Alma then baptizes Zeezrom, and from then on Zeezrom preached to the people.
 And then Alma cried unto the Lord, saying: O Lord our God, have mercy on this man, and heal him according to his faith which is in Christ. 15.10
And when Alma had said these words, Zeezrom leaped upon his feet, and began to walk; and this was done to the great astonishment of all the people; and the knowledge of this went forth throughout all the land of Sidom. 15.11
And Alma baptized Zeezrom unto the Lord; and he began from that time forth to preach unto the people. 15.12
Alma established a church in Sidon, and baptized everyone there who wanted to be baptized. Nobody in Ammonihah wanted to be baptized, because they were all still wicked sinners.
And Alma established a church in the land of Sidom, and consecrated priests and teachers in the land, to baptize unto the Lord whosoever were desirous to be baptized. 15.13
And it came to pass that they were many; for they did flock in from all the region round about Sidom, and were baptized. 15.14
But as to the people that were in the land of Ammonihah, they yet remained a hard-hearted and a stiffnecked people; and they repented not of their sins, ascribing all the power of Alma and Amulek to the devil; for they were of the profession of Nehor, and did not believe in the repentance of their sins. 15.15
Amulek had left all of his gold and silver, his house, and his father in Ammonihah. Alma wanted to help him start a new life, so he took him back to his home in Zarahemla. First, though, he made sure that the church was off to a good start, and that the people weren't going to become wicked again. He made sure they were praying enough, and that they were humble... and then Alma and Amulek took off for Zarahemla.
And it came to pass that Alma and Amulek, Amulek having forsaken all his gold, and silver, and his precious things, which were in the land of Ammonihah, for the word of God, he being rejected by those who were once his friends and also by his father and his kindred; 15.16
Therefore, after Alma having established the church at Sidom, seeing a great check, yea, seeing that the people were checked as to the pride of their hearts, and began to humble themselves before God, and began to assemble themselves together at their sanctuaries to worship God before the altar, watching and praying continually, that they might be delivered from Satan, and from death, and from destruction -- 15.17
Now as I said, Alma having seen all these things, therefore he took Amulek and came over to the land of Zarahemla, and took him to his own house, and did administer unto him in his tribulations, and strengthened him in the Lord. 15.18
This all happened in 82 BC (according to the Book of Mormon footnote).
And thus ended the tenth year of the reign of the judges over the people of Nephi. 15.19
Posted by Philip Wells at 4/23/2014 08:40:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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 Lifestyles 2012 said...
Hi Philip - so - I noticed something interesting lately. You and your brother Steve are atheists. And that's cool. Got no problem. I happen to be a Christian. You appear to continuoisly point out flaws of Mormans. Ok - get over it. Don't blame Jesus for someone who say they know Jesus. I am still working on how to "prove God exists." Thank your brother Steve for that. But quit the Morrman stuff and be men. Quit taking the easy road and pick on the weak religion. And oh yeah - look forward to meeting you one day.
Thu Apr 24, 08:56:00 PM 2014 
 Stephen said...
Philip is Steve's son. His project is blogging the Book of Mormon.
Mormonism isn't really any more ridiculous than Christianity, but it's of such recent origin that its provenance is much more accessible to inspection and criticism. Christianity is much older, so its origins aren't as easily studied. However, there *is* quite a lot of good scholarship on the bible: Bart Ehrman and Steve Wells have some good material, for example.
As for the Wells (and me) being atheists, I would say you are as well! Do you believe in Zeus? Thor? Baal? Molech? There are literally thousands of gods who were at one time revered by millions of people. When you think about the reasons why you reject those gods, you will understand why I reject YHWH. I just believe in one less god than you.
BTW, have you told any Mormons (only one "r", two "o"s, and the second "m" is silent) that theirs is a "weak religion"?
Steve Weeks
Fri Apr 25, 07:18:00 AM 2014 
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 21 April 2014Alma 14: Alma and Amulek in Prison
After Alma and Amulek had finished speaking, the response of the crowd was mixed. Some of them believed the speech and began to repent, but the majority of them were angry and wanted to kill them.
And it came to pass after he had made an end of speaking unto the people many of them did believe on his words, and began to repent, and to search the scriptures. 14.1
But the more part of them were desirous that they might destroy Alma and Amulek; for they were angry with Alma, because of the plainness of his words unto Zeezrom; and they also said that Amulek had lied unto them, and had reviled against their law and also against their lawyers and judges. 14.2
Instead, the crowd tied them up and brought them before the Chief Judge.
But it came to pass that they did not; but they took them and bound them with strong cords, and took them before the chief judge of the land. 14.4
The people testified against Alma and Amulek, saying that they had made fun of their lawyers, judges, laws and of everyone who lived in their land. The also testified that Alma and Amulek had claimed that there was only one God, and God would send his son among the people, but that his son wouldn't save them.
And the people went forth and witnessed against them -- testifying that they had reviled against the law, and their lawyers and judges of the land, and also of all the people that were in the land; and also testified that there was but one God, and that he should send his Son among the people, but he should not save them; and many such things did the people testify against Alma and Amulek. Now this was done before the chief judge of the land. 14.5
Every man, woman and child who believed Alma and Amulek's words were rounded up and burned. Alma and Amulek were brought to the "place of martyrdom" and made to watch everyone burn to death.
And they brought their wives and children together, and whosoever believed or had been taught to believe in the word of God they caused that they should be cast into the fire, and they also brought forth their records which contained the holy scriptures, and cast them into the fire also, that they might be burned and destroyed by fire. 14.8
And it came to pass that they took Alma and Amulek, and carried them forth to the place of martyrdom, that they might witness the destruction of those who were consumed by fire. 14.9
Then Amulek and Alma had this nice little exchange:

AMULEK
How can we watch this? Let's use the power of God to save them from the flames.


ALMA
No, we shouldn't. God needs solid proof to punish these people, and if we stop it then they can't be punished properly. It's a shame that all of these innocent people have to burn to death, but punishing evil people is more important to God than saving innocent ones.

 AMULEK
Yeah, I guess that makes sense. But they might burn us, too, and I don't want to burn to death.
ALMA
Naah, God won't let us burn. We still have stuff to do for him.

But Alma said unto him: The Spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand; for behold the Lord receiveth them up unto himself, in glory; and he doth suffer that they may do this thing, or that the people may do this thing unto them, according to the hardness of their hearts, that the judgments which he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just; and the blood of the innocent shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily against them at the last day. 14.11
Now Amulek said unto Alma: Behold, perhaps they will burn us also. 14.12
And Alma said: Be it according to the will of the Lord. But, behold, our work is not finished; therefore they burn us not. 14.13
After everyone else is burned, the Chief Judge came to talk to Alma and Amulek. After slapping them around a few times, he asked them "Are you still going to keep preaching? Even after your god couldn't save those people? What do you have to say for yourselves?"
Now it came to pass that when the bodies of those who had been cast into the fire were consumed, and also the records which were cast in with them, the chief judge of the land came and stood before Alma and Amulek, as they were bound; and he smote them with his hand upon their cheeks, and said unto them: After what ye have seen, will ye preach again unto this people, that they shall be cast into a lake of fire and brimstone? 14.14
Behold, ye see that ye had not power to save those who had been cast into the fire; neither has God saved them because they were of thy faith. And the judge smote them again upon their cheeks, and asked: What say ye for yourselves? 14.15
They kept their mouths shut. (I usually say "thou sayest" in theses situations). The Chief Judge hit them again, and then threw them in prison.
And it came to pass that Alma and Amulek answered him nothing; and he smote them again, and delivered them to the officers to be cast into prison. 14.17

Alma and Amulek weren't treated very well in prison. The Ammonihahites denied them  food and water, and even made them strip naked. Meanwhile they sent all kinds of lawyers, judges, priests and teachers to question them. They didn't answer any of their questions though.
And when they had been cast into prison three days, there came many lawyers, and judges, and priests, and teachers, who were of the profession of Nehor; and they came in unto the prison to see them, and they questioned them about many words; but they answered them nothing. 14.18
And it came to pass that the judge stood before them, and said: 0Why do ye not answer the words of this people? Know ye not that I have power to deliver you up unto the flames? And he commanded them to speak; but they answered nothing. 14.19
And it came to pass that they departed and went their ways, but came again on the morrow; and the judge also smote them again on their cheeks. And many came forth also, and smote them, saying: Will ye stand again and judge this people, and condemn our law? If ye have such great power why do ye not deliver yourselves? 14.20
And many such things did they say unto them, gnashing their teeth upon them, and spitting upon them, and saying: How shall we look when we are damned? 14.21
And many such things, yea, all manner of such things did they say unto them; and thus they did mock them for many days. And they did withhold food from them that they might hunger, and water that they might thirst; and they also did take from them their clothes that they were naked; and thus they were bound with strong cords, and confined in prison. 14.22
And it came to pass after they had thus suffered for many days, (and it was on the twelfth day, in the tenth month, in the tenth year of the reign of the judges over the people of Nephi) that the chief judge over the land of Ammonihah and many of their teachers and their lawyers went in unto the prison where Alma and Amulek were bound with cords. 14.23
One day, Alma just couldn't take it anymore. The Chief Judge said to him and Amulek (after hitting them again), that if they can use God's power to break the cords on their hands, then he'll believe them. Then everyone else in the Chief Judge's entourage hits them and says the exact same thing.
And the chief judge stood before them, and smote them again, and said unto them: If ye have the power of God deliver yourselves from these bands, and then we will believe that the Lord will destroy this people according to your words. 14.24
And it came to pass that they all went forth and smote them, saying the same words, even until the last; and when the last had spoken unto them the power of God was upon Alma and Amulek, and they rose and stood upon their feet. 14.25
Alma cries out to God, asking him how much longer he has to put up with being smacked in the face all the time. God answers by giving him divine power to break the cords. This really scared everyone there, and they start running out of the prison.
And Alma cried, saying: How long shall we suffer these great afflictions, O Lord? O Lord, give us strength according to our faith which is in Christ, even unto deliverance. And they broke the cords with which they were bound; and when the people saw this, they began to flee, for the fear of destruction had come upon them. 14.26
But they were too scared to run properly, and they fell to the ground.
And it came to pass that so great was their fear that they fell to the earth, and did not obtain the outer door of the prison. 14.27a
Then the ground shook, and the prison was split it two, and everyone who had just slapped Alma and Amulek were crushed by a falling wall.

And the earth shook mightily, and the walls of the prison were rent in twain, so that they fell to the earth; and the chief judge, and the lawyers, and priests, and teachers, who smote upon Alma and Amulek, were slain by the fall thereof. 14.27b
Alma and Amulek left the prison without a scratch. No one in town gave them any trouble, because they were afraid of them.

And Alma and Amulek came forth out of the prison, and they were not hurt; for the Lord had granted unto them power, according to their faith which was in Christ. And they straightway came forth out of the prison; and they were loosed from their bands; and the prison had fallen to the earth, and every soul within the walls thereof, save it were Alma and Amulek, was slain; and they straightway came forth into the city. 14.28
Now the people having heard a great noise came running together by multitudes to know the cause of it; and when they saw Alma and Amulek coming forth out of the prison, and the walls thereof had fallen to the earth, they were struck with great fear, and fled from the presence of Alma and Amulek even as a goat fleeth with her young from two lions; and thus they did flee from the presence of Alma and Amulek. 14.29










Posted by Philip Wells at 4/21/2014 05:46:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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Dwindling In Unbelief



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 19 April 2014Happy Jesus-in-Hell Day!
When I was a believer, I was always puzzled by the phrase "He descended into hell" in the Apostles' Creed. It just seemed strange to me. What was a nice guy like Jesus doing in a place like that?
But I guess Jesus did some time in hell; it says so right in the Bible.
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. Acts 2:31
Luckily he took some really cool pictures.
Here's a black and white photo of a very tall Jesus meeting Adam and Eve as they come out of their demon-mouth house.

And here's one, on Saturday night, after Jesus put on his transparent robe.

Jesus, in a hurry to meet the ladies of hell.

Another photo of Jesus hanging out with Adam and Eve.

The sermon from hell.

And here's Jesus Sunday morning before heading back to the tomb.

Posted by Steve Wells at 4/19/2014 11:00:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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15 comments:
 Stephen said...
Thanks, Steve, and thanks, Zinnia, for bringing this to my attention. I'll be sure to remind everyone at my extended family easter lunch tomorrow. ;-)
If hell is good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me! :lol:
Steve Weeks
Sat Apr 07, 12:20:00 PM 2012 
 Stephen said...
Heh... I just followed the link to Acts, and then to the question of whether Joseph was the father of Jesus, where I saw this:
Luke 1:31-35
And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring for a son, and shalt call his name Jesus .... Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be seeing I know not a man. And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee.
Sounds almost like a porn movie!
Steve Weeks
Sat Apr 07, 12:27:00 PM 2012 
 The Wise Fool said...
Pretty interesting depictions of hell. It seems that you will either be emaciated, or you will spend all of your time working out, like they do in prisons today. I mean, look at the gun show put on by that woman in the forefront of the last image!
Sat Apr 07, 12:42:00 PM 2012 
 Nathan said...
There's a considerable amount on Jesus' visit to Hell in the Gospel of Nicodemus, a book that didn't make it into the Scriptures. I wrote a bit about it in this post.
Sat Apr 07, 07:55:00 PM 2012 
 Brian_E said...
I don't think Hallmark's going to make a card to mark the occasion :)
Mon Apr 09, 07:53:00 AM 2012 
 nazani said...
Interesting that Adam is depicted as older than Eve.
The transparent cloth is a compliment to Jesus, since only linen or silk woven with the thinnest thread would have any transparency.
Last image- gotta love the Italians, never letting religion get in the way of depicting strapping lasses.
Tue Apr 10, 02:58:00 PM 2012 
 Unknown said...
Here's some added light to His time spent in hell:
"For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, wer saved through water (1 Pet 3:18-20).
Wed Apr 11, 06:29:00 AM 2012 
 Dr. Kold_Kadavr_flatliner, M.D. said...
God blessa youse -Fr. Sarducci, ol SNL
Tue Apr 17, 02:55:00 PM 2012 
 Matt said...
Kudos on hitting on a scarcely talked about topic.
Although, to be fair, this is a contested doctrine and not universally held to. The word translated "hell" in Acts 2:31 comes from "Hades," which was considered by Jews to simply be "the grave."
This is how the NIV (and many others) translates it, and likely why many people are not aware of this belief held by some in the early church.
Interesting blog. I plan on checking it out regularly.
Fri Apr 20, 11:12:00 AM 2012 
 Marwan Yafi said...
Read the parable of Lazarus & the rich, Matthew 8:12; Matthew 22:13; Matthew 25:30.
Matthew 16:18
And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it
Christianity is a very primitive cult. But if you are disappointed by Christianity, established by Jews, as they have done to Hindu, Hellenico-Romano cults & to Shiite sects' tree, who call them selfves "Muslim", Allah (God) exists.
Muslim
Architect Marwan Yafi


Sun Nov 18, 06:49:00 AM 2012 
 Zarathustra said...
Happy "ZOMBIE" SunDay
Sat Apr 19, 04:13:00 PM 2014 
 Lifestyles 2012 said...
Wow - just came across your blog. Very funny at the least. But I definitely have to disagree with many things you say. So much that I made my mirror blog to talk about your posts - dwindling in beliefs. So, you found it interesting that Jesus went to hell/hades/prison. Well, he hung around tax collectors. Doctors don't hang around non-sick people. It shows that Jesus has the ability to go anywhere and never be entrapped. As far as the question of the 8 souls freed by water. That was Noah, his three sons, and their wives. Happy Easter Steve. Let's find out if there is a God or no God.
Sun Apr 20, 05:05:00 PM 2014 
 Stephen said...
"Happy Easter Steve. Let's find out if there is a God or no God."
Great! Got evidence?
Steve Weeks
Sun Apr 20, 06:32:00 PM 2014 
 Lifestyles 2012 said...
Hi Steve - great question. I think I will try to answer that question first. That will be the first of 95 questions I will answer. The answer is very difficult and thus will take a while and a few pages to explain. When I have it completed - I will return. But part of the answer is - God will not be tested or show you absolute proof that He exists. If it was that easy then everyone would believe in God and there would be no free will. But if there wasn't God - then why has He created us to worship Him. A knife is used to cut a steak. You don't cut steak with a spoon. Man was designed or programmed to worship God. That is why there are and have always been more people who believe there is some type of God. I remember watching a tv show called who wants to be a millionaire. When they polled the audience and most of them chose the same answer - that answer was usually correct. The audience has chosen that there is a God. But I need to get my complete thoughts down to try to prove that God exists. I will admit - that is a very difficult question.
Mon Apr 21, 11:59:00 PM 2014 
 Stephen said...
While you're busy making up evidence for the existence of god (be sure to get the right god... there are so many!), you should also be trying to come up with evidence for this statement of yours: "Man was designed or programmed to worship God." I can help you here. Read "Why We Believe in Gods- a concise guide to the science of faith" by Andy Thomson. It's a short, readable book which will explain a lot.
BTW, an entity with the power to create the universe who "designs" lesser beings to worship it would either be a high-grade narcissist or a pathetic case of terminal low self-esteem.
Steve Weeks
Tue Apr 22, 04:08:00 AM 2014 
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 18 April 2014Alma 13: Melchizedek--None were greater
In this chapter, Alma continues his speech to Zeezrom and people of Ammonihah who have gathered. He told them all about the holy priests that were ordained directly from God, and how some people listened to the priests and some didn't. The priests were holy, dedicated, and wise...


He goes on for quite a while about this, without saying much of substance. The only real interesting thing he says about the priests in the first 10 verses is this: "Their garments were washed white through the blood of the Lamb". That must have been some special blood.

And this is the manner after which they were ordained -- being called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works; in the first place being left to choose good or evil; therefore they having chosen good, and exercising exceedingly great faith, are called with a holy calling, yea, with that holy calling which was prepared with, and according to, a preparatory redemption for such. Alma 13.3
And thus they have been called to this holy calling on account of their faith, while others would reject the Spirit of God on account of the hardness of their hearts and blindness of their minds, while, if it had not been for this they might have had as great privilege as their brethren. 13.4
Therefore they were called after this holy order, and were sanctified, and their garments were washed white through the blood of the Lamb. 13.11
Then we get to a more interesting part. Alma brings up Melchizedek, who apparently was in the same order of priests that he had been speaking so highly of before. (Remember Melchizedek from Genesis 14.20? He was the lucky priest that got 1/10 of Abraham's booty in exchange for one little prayer.)
Yea, humble yourselves even as the people in the days of Melchizedek, who was also a high priest after this same order which I have spoken, who also took upon him the high priesthood forever. 13.14 
And it was this same Melchizedek to whom Abraham paid tithes; yea, even our father Abraham paid tithes of one-tenth part of all he possessed. 13.15
Luckily, we are going to get to learn more about him than we did in Genesis. According to Alma, Melchizedek was a king over the land of Salem. His people had become wicked, but he saved them because of his "mighty faith". He established peace in the land, and even became known as the "prince of peace".
Also, note that he reigned under his father (who, according to Hebrews 7:3, he didn't have.)
Now this Melchizedek was a king over the land of Salem; and his people had waxed strong in iniquity and abomination; yea, they had all gone astray; they were full of all manner of wickedness; 13.17
But Melchizedek having exercised mighty faith, and received the office of the high priesthood according to the holy order of God, did preach repentance unto his people. And behold, they did repent; and Melchizedek did establish peace in the land in his days; therefore he was called the prince of peace, for he was the king of Salem; and he did reign under his father. 13.18
He must have been some priest/king, because apparently he was the best there ever was (or will be).
Now, there were many before him, and also there were many afterwards, but none were greater; therefore, of him they have more particularly made mention. 13.19
 Something similar is mentioned about Melchizedek in Hebrews:
Melchizedek...Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God. Hebrews 7.1-3
But enough about Melchizedek. It's time to repent! Alma gets back to his core message, and even urges them not to procrastinate.
And now, my brethren, I wish from the inmost part of my heart, yea, with great anxiety even unto pain, that ye would hearken unto my words, and cast off your sins, and not procrastinate the day of your repentance; 13.27
But that ye would humble yourselves before the Lord, and call on his holy name, and watch and pray continually, that ye may not be tempted above that which ye can bear, and thus be led by the Holy Spirit, becoming humble, meek, submissive, patient, full of love and all long-suffering; 13.28
And that's it. Except everything else he said, which I guess wasn't important enough to chisel into the plates.
And Alma spake many more words unto the people, which are not written in this book. 13.31








Posted by Philip Wells at 4/18/2014 02:19:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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 17 April 2014Guess what book replaced the Book of Mormon as the #1 book on the list of life-changing books
Yesterday there was an article in the Deseret News entitled, "The Book of Mormon claims No. 1 spot on list of life-changing books." It was great news for the Salt Lake City newspaper, a paper owned an operated by the LDS Church.
Here are some excepts:
The Book of Mormon climbed to the top of a list of life-changing books from BestBookRead.com Wednesday, April 17, thanks to user votes and social media interaction.
...
On Wednesday, the Book of Mormon claimed the No. 1 spot on the list with help from a blog post by LDS Media Talk.
The post, published April 11, prompted readers with the question "How has the Book of Mormon changed your life?" Readers were encouraged to vote for their life changing-book at BestBookRead.com.
After the post, the Book of Mormon went from No. 25 on the list to No. 1, with more than 4,000 votes.
"This is an example of what Latter-day Saints can do when we stand for what we believe and we share it with others," reads the post from LDS Media Talk.
Before the post on April 11, the Book of Mormon ranked #25, with 235 votes; five days later it ranked #1, with more than 4000 votes. As the author of the #1 generating post said, "This is an example of what Latter-day Saints can do when we stand for what we believe and we share it with others. If you haven’t voted for it yet, just visit BestBookRead.com."
The joy at LDS headquarters in SLC was short-lived, however. The Book of Mormon has fallen to #4, following #3 "How to Kill Yourself." The new #1 is "Mein Kampf" by Adolf Hitler.
(The Bible, by the way, is #36, just barely beating "Porn Star 1" by one vote.)
Posted by Steve Wells at 4/17/2014 11:47:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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9 comments:
 Daryl Cobranchi said...
I had to vote for "How to Kill Yourself."
Thu Apr 17, 12:00:00 PM 2014 
 Yark Hutprancer said...
I had to do Mein Kampf special banned edition.
Thu Apr 17, 02:32:00 PM 2014 
 Stephen said...
This sounds like something similar to a "Google bomb" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_bomb ). For example, Google "Santorum".
But... I was hoping it was going to be the Skeptic's Annotated Bible, or at least Drunk with Blood. Well, a guy can hope!
Steve Weeks
Thu Apr 17, 04:31:00 PM 2014 
 Lifestyles 2012 said...
Just goes to show how stupid marketing and biased websites can make stupid people believe anything. My advice is to go by facts of most read book or most printed books. It's The Bible. So if you think a low budget website can distort facts then good luck. Keep trying to convince the world that God does not exist:-)
Sun Apr 20, 05:21:00 PM 2014 
 Stephen said...
"Keep trying to convince the world that God does not exist:-)"
Luckily, it's the other way around. Which of the thousands of gods that have been invented by humans do you have in mind? We're all born atheists; we get our religion from our families and local culture because it's inculcated into us.
Got evidence? ;-)
Steve Weeks
Sun Apr 20, 06:51:00 PM 2014 
 Lifestyles 2012 said...
Got evidence? Nice quote. Makes me think of a child and a piece of paper. If you take a ball and cover it with a piece of paper then the child will forget there is a ball. As the child matures - it eventually pulls the paper away to see if the ball is there. Old enough and it knows its there. Jews saw Moses part the Red Sea and not long later - they make the golden calf after Moses leaves them for 40 days. You said you were a former believer and now you don't believe. Get some gold and make a calf:-) talk everyone around you to join you making the calf. So - as far as proof. Tell me where the bible is flawed. I'm listening.
Mon Apr 21, 05:26:00 PM 2014 
 Stephen said...
It *is* a nice quote. Actually, it's a request or, if you prefer, a challenge. So... do you have anything other than "I have this book"?
So... you know about "object permanence"; I'm impressed. Other than that, you, Sir, are the master of the Non Sequitur. What object permanence has to do with Moses and the golden calf escapes me.
I like the story of the golden calf, and think it's wonderful that when the jews left Egypt in haste they brought with them all the equipment necessary for smelting gold and casting it into a shape. They probably had the necessary polishing equipment, too. (FWIW, I know quite a lot about gold casting, having done a fair amount of it.)
How about the fact that there is no archeological evidence that the "exodus" ever took place? (See http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evidence_for_the_Exodus ).
As for flaws in the bible, you might be interested in Bart Ehrman's book "Misquoting Jesus- the story behind who changed the bible and why". Cheers,
Steve Weeks
BTW, you may be confusing me with Steve Wells, who is much more knowledgeable on these matters than I am. I doubt any objective assessment would place either of us in the "stupid people" category. I was never a believer, if that helps you understand me.
Mon Apr 21, 06:12:00 PM 2014 
 Lifestyles 2012 said...
Steve - I am sorry I thought you were someone else. Life is very difficult. The idea of whether God exists or does not exist is very extreme. I have a masters degree in engineering from Virginia Tech. My daughter has a 3.91 GPA in engineering and both of us believe in God. Steve recently askede to "prove" God and I have been thinking about that ever sense. I respect all atheists for their rights and want to offer the best answer possible. Anyways - good talking to you and see you soon.
Thu Apr 24, 09:08:00 PM 2014 
 Stephen said...
Lifestyles, I don't blame you for being proud of your accomplishments and those of your daughter. However, they don't support your argument for the existence of any god. I wouldn't expect saying that I have a doctoral degree in a health science (dentistry), or that my daughter is a PhD candidate in a biological science, or that my son is graduating with a 3.96 (though not in engineering, I'll give you that!) to support *my* argument against the existence of any god. Both my children are skeptics, BTW.
Here's what would probably serve as sufficient (for me) evidence for the existence of the Christian god: an amputee having a missing limb regenerated by prayer alone. I know what you're going to say: god can't be tested and if this happened we wouldn't have free will... or something like that. Well, people claim that other types of prayer are answered, so why not those of amputees? If god is capable of re-growing a limb (he does it for salamanders!), he'd have to be a real dick to not do it just to preserve the illusion of free will.
Incidentally, I think it's interesting that you and your daughter are engineers. You might Google "Salem Hypothesis".
Cheers,
Steve
Fri Apr 25, 07:46:00 AM 2014 
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 16 April 2014Alma 12: "This is the thing which I was about to explain..."
After Amulek shut Zeezrom up, Alma hopped on the soapbox and continued preaching. A crowd had gathered, and he wanted to take full advantage.
Now Alma, seeing that the words of Amulek had silenced Zeezrom, for he beheld that Amulek had caught him in his lying and deceiving to destroy him, and seeing that he began to tremble under a consciousness of his guilt, he opened his mouth and began to speak unto him, and to establish the words of Amulek, and to explain things beyond, or to unfold the scriptures beyond that which Amulek had done. 12.1
Now the words that Alma spake unto Zeezrom were heard by the people round about; for the multitude was great, and he spake on this wise: 12.2
He continues to give Zeezrom a hard time, and call him an agent of the devil.
Now Zeezrom, seeing that thou hast been taken in thy lying and craftiness, for thou hast not lied unto men only but thou hast lied unto God; for behold, he knows all thy thoughts, and thou seest that thy thoughts are made known unto us by his Spirit; 12.3
And thou seest that we know that thy plan was a very subtle plan, as to the subtlety of the devil, for to lie and to deceive this people that thou mightest set them against us, to revile us and to cast us out -- 12.4
Now this was a plan of thine adversary, and he hath exercised his power in thee. Now I would that ye should remember that what I say unto thee I say unto all. 12.5
And behold I say unto you all that this was a snare of the adversary, which he has laid to catch this people, that he might bring you into subjection unto him, that he might encircle you about with his chains, that he might chain you down to everlasting destruction, according to the power of his captivity. 12.6
By this point even Zeezrom was convinced. He began trembling (a universal sign of guilt in the Book of Mormon),  and started to ask some real questions to Alma. Zeezrom asks about the resurrection of the dead, and if everyone is brought before God for judgment after their death.
Now when Alma had spoken these words, Zeezrom began to tremble more exceedingly, for he was convinced more and more of the power of God; and he was also convinced that Alma and Amulek had a knowledge of him, for he was convinced that they knew the thoughts and intents of his heart; for power was given unto them that they might know of these things according to the spirit of prophecy. 12.7
And Zeezrom began to inquire of them diligently, that he might know more concerning the kingdom of God. And he said unto Alma: What does this mean which Amulek hath spoken concerning the resurrection of the dead, that all shall rise from the dead, both the just and the unjust, and are brought to stand before God to be judged according to their works? 12.8


Alma answers him in very vague terms, basically saying that some people get to know the mysteries of God, and some don't. The better you behave, the more you get to know, and the worst-behaving people are punished by receiving less and less knowledge of God, which is a vicious cycle that ends up sending them into the jaws of Hell. Seems fair.
And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him. 12.9
And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full. 12.10
And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell. 12.11
Then if our hearts have been hardened, yea, if we have hardened our hearts against the word, insomuch that it has not been found in us, then will our state be awful, for then we shall be condemned. 12.13
Zeezrom also asked whether people are judged by their works or not. Alma answered that God judges people by their works, their words, and even their thoughts. On the judgment day a person will not be found faultless, and they would be happy to let a mountain fall upon them rather than look upon God and be judged. Indeed.
For our words will condemn us, yea, all our works will condemn us; we shall not be found spotless; and our thoughts will also condemn us; and in this awful state we shall not dare to look up to our God; and we would fain be glad if we could command the rocks and the mountains to fall upon us to hide us from his presence. 12.14
Alma then gives a nice description of Hell:
Then is the time when their torments shall be as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever; and then is the time that they shall be chained down to an everlasting destruction, according to the power and captivity of Satan, he having subjected them according to his will. 12.17
When Alma was done speaking, the people were astonished. Or most of them, at least. There was still one doubter among them. His name was Antionah, and he was their chief ruler. He said:
"What do you mean, that people can live forever? Didn't God place cherubim and a flaming sword on the east of the Garden of Eden, so that our parents couldn't eat from the tree of life and live forever?"
Now it came to pass that when Alma had made an end of speaking these words, the people began to be more astonished; 12.19
But there was one Antionah, who was a chief ruler among them, came forth and said unto him: What is this that thou hast said, that man should rise from the dead and be changed from this mortal to an immortal state that the soul can never die? 12.20
What does the scripture mean, which saith that God placed cherubim and a flaming sword on the east of the garden of Eden, lest our first parents should enter and partake of the fruit of the tree of life, and live forever? And thus we see that there was no possible chance that they should live forever. 12.21
 Alma said: "Oh yeah, I was getting to that."
Now Alma said unto him: This is the thing which I was about to explain, now we see that Adam did fall by the partaking of the forbidden fruit, according to the word of God; and thus we see, that by his fall, all mankind became a lost and fallen people. 12.22
Then he explains how the fall of Adam was all part of the plan, because people would have been miserable if they lived forever in the Garden of Eden, because they wouldn't have the proper "predatory state", and then redemption wouldn't have been possible. It all makes sense if you really think about it (or if you don't think about it very hard).
And now behold, I say unto you that if it had been possible for Adam to have partaken of the fruit of the tree of life at that time, there would have been no death, and the word would have been void, making God a liar, for he said: If thou eat thou shalt surely die. 12.23
And we see that death comes upon mankind, yea, the death which has been spoken of by Amulek, which is the temporal death; nevertheless there was a space granted unto man in which he might repent; therefore this life became a probationary state; a time to prepare to meet God; a time to prepare for that endless state which has been spoken of by us, which is after the resurrection of the dead. 12.24
Now, if it had not been for the plan of redemption, which was laid from the foundation of the world, there could have been no resurrection of the dead; but there was a plan of redemption laid, which shall bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, of which has been spoken. 12.25
And now behold, if it were possible that our first parents could have gone forth and partaken of the tree of life they would have been forever miserable, having no preparatory state; and thus the plan of redemption would have been frustrated, and the word of God would have been void, taking none effect. 12.26
But behold, it was not so; but it was appointed unto men that they must die; and after death, they must come to judgment, even that same judgment of which we have spoken, which is the end. 12.27
Then Alma finishes the way he usually does, with a call to repentance.
And now, my brethren, behold I say unto you, that if ye will harden your hearts ye shall not enter into the rest of the Lord; therefore your iniquity provoketh him that he sendeth down his wrath upon you as in the first provocation, yea, according to his word in the last provocation as well as the first, to the everlasting destruction of your souls; therefore, according to his word, unto the last death, as well as the first. 12.36
And now, my brethren, seeing we know these things, and they are true, let us repent, and harden not our hearts, that we provoke not the Lord our God to pull down his wrath upon us in these his second commandments which he has given unto us; but let us enter into the rest of God, which is prepared according to his word. 12.37





Posted by Philip Wells at 4/16/2014 05:06:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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 15 April 2014And I beheld when the moon became as blood
(Since there's a lot of Christian hysteria over the tetrad of lunar eclipses that began last night, I thought I'd repost this from August 27, 2007.)

Did you see it last night? I did. The moon darkened and turned red, just like the Bible said it would.
I'm not sure just what to make of it, though.
Does it mean that Jesus is back?
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:29-30
Well, the moon was definitely darkened, but the sun seemed normal enough and I didn't see any stars fall. Still, Alberto Gonzales resigned yesterday and Larry Craig pleaded guilty of lewd conduct charges. So maybe "the powers of heaven were shaken" a bit.
Or is it the end of the world, "the great and terrible day of the Lord" that I've heard so much about?
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. Joel 2:31
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come. Acts 2:20
Or has the sixth seal of Revelation been broken?
And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood. Revelation 6:12
God has a strange way of communicating, doesn't he? The naturally occurring signs and wonders are all part of God's special sign language. Last night's central lunar eclipse was one of his most spectacular signs and was clearly a fulfillment of the Bible's prophecy (that there have been hundreds since the prophecies were made only shows how accurate the prophecies have been).
But what was God trying to tell us? (It must be a really important message since God repeats it so often.)
Posted by Steve Wells at 4/15/2014 08:45:00 AM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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14 comments:
 James said...
Maybe God was trying to tell us that the moon was directly oppoosite the sun.
Tue Aug 28, 08:14:00 PM 2007 
 Jason said...
The "sun, moon and stars" have always been taken to be symbolic of political powers, much like the symbolic "powers of heaven" reference you correctly used in your post.
If you see eclipses as God 'communicating' with mankind, your faith is be to commended. :)
Thu Aug 30, 08:01:00 PM 2007 
 Jospeh said...
When I was twelve, the preacher at my church quotes these biblical passages. I became obsessed with the night sky and started noticing the stars "drifting." One night I was riding in the car with my dad when I saw a moon as blood red as your picture. I can still remember how my heart sank. "Jesus is coming back and I'm not ready!" I was terrified in a way I have never been before or since. Several months later I told my Dad I wanted to be baptized into Christ and did so. How strange that it is fear which so often brings people to the 'Lord's side.'
Fri Aug 31, 02:15:00 PM 2007 
 BaldySlaphead said...
Hi Jason,
I always find it interesting when people say things like you do above; 'The "sun, moon and stars" have always been taken to be symbolic of political powers'.
Do you mean that in all four of the quoted passages in the original article, the words 'sun', 'moon' and 'stars' are used in a symbolic sense? If so, and this is my real point, how do you know?
Many times in discussions such as these, particularly where the literal, face-value reading of the Biblical text shows it to be nonsensical, contradictory or whatever, is that pro-Bible debaters will claim a symbolic or otherwise non-literal reading of the text and resolve the problem in this way.
Do you have some special concordance that tells you when it is appropriate to read things at face value and when things are symbolic or metaphorical (etc)? It often appears that this must be the case, but when asked if they can provide this concordance so that all may be able to view the text in the correct manner, they never do, which is certainly unsporting at the very least!
The problem is that not allowing those of us who are critical to see this concordance tends to make us rather cynical that any such thing exists.
Obviously I'm being slightly facetious there, but it is a genuine question and a serious point.
Regards,
Baldy
Wed Sep 05, 05:23:00 AM 2007 
 Jason said...
Hi Baldy,
I would submit the same question to you: how does an atheist know what is literal in Scripture and what isn't?
Likewise, in cases like this, Bible critics will choose a literal meaning when a symbolic meaning is more in keeping with the context and, more importantly, consistency of similar symbols elsewhere.
More evidence to pause and consider whether a literal or symbolic meaning should be applied:
1. Revelation is a book of symbols - there's no reason or basis to pick out the phrase "the moon into blood" and claim it's literal.
2. Show me any time in Scripture that the language, such as in Matthew 24, is used for the literal destruction of the solar system, together with stars many times the size of our sun crashing into the planet.
3. Note the Biblical evidence against a literal reading of the symbols:
a. Isaiah 34:4-5. Literal dissolution of the heavenly bodies or political upheaval?
b. Ezekiel 32:2,7. A literal destruction of the heavens or political upheaval?
c. Isa 13:1, 9-10. Signs in the literal sun, moon and stars or political upheaval?
d. Gen 37:9. Sun, moon and stars - literal or symbolic?
Thu Sep 13, 10:49:00 AM 2007 
 hoppers said...
usually, in Texas anyway, if the moon is red it means it will probably rain tomorrow. Maybe not the great prophecy that anyone was expecting but it still means you don't have to drag the sprinkler out for the yard.
Sun Sep 16, 10:22:00 PM 2007 
 Manuela said...
Hey Jason
"Show me any time in Scripture that the language, such as in Matthew 24, is used for the literal destruction of the solar system, together with stars many times the size of our sun crashing into the planet."
Well that's exactly it, the ancients didn't know stars were that giant. They seemed to assume they were tiny objects that could drop from the sky. It still doesn't answer the question of wether they might have meant it would happen literally.
I of course agree that if anything, the bible is to be taken symbolically. But someone who says it must be taken literally can't just cherry-pick.
Sat Aug 16, 10:32:00 AM 2008 
 Historylover said...
I actually don't go in for all of the crazy sign watching and just marveled at out incredible the event was. However, if you are interested in signs as proposed by the Bible, the return of the Messiah corresponds to the Jewish Fall feasts, not the Spring ones, so it wouldn't happen now anyway. Just food for thought.
Tue Apr 15, 09:08:00 PM 2014 
 Stephen said...
I wish I'd been in a location where I could have seen the eclipse, instead of under cloudy skies in Chicago. The "blood-red" moon is pretty cool... I've seen it before.
Not too worried about Jesus coming back for the quick and the dead, though. ;-)
Steve Weeks
Wed Apr 16, 02:22:00 PM 2014 
 roy thomas said...
Maybe all that ordered DNAs of different creatures, all those topoisomerases, all those precision physical laws just came out of nowhere and formed us..starting millions of years ago and going nowhere! Maybe the Jesus of history was just a figment of some people's imagination. Maybe he was just a liar or a lunatic! Why did John say?:"He was in the world and the world was made by him and the world knew him not"
Sun Apr 20, 03:30:00 AM 2014 
 Lifestyles 2012 said...
Steve - you are too easy to debate. Your stirring up trouble. The Bible says not to mess with astrology and try to find special meaning. Jeremiah 10: 2-3
Sun Apr 20, 05:40:00 PM 2014 
 Stephen said...
"The Bible says not to mess with astrology and try to find special meaning."
What about Genesis 1:14, Judges 5:20, Matthew 2:1-2, and Luke 21:25?
"Special meaning"... read "cherry-picking".
Steve Weeks
Sun Apr 20, 07:03:00 PM 2014 
 Lifestyles 2012 said...
Steve - I stand corrected. It was clear that God said we can use them as a clock. That is what it was designed for. Now - when you read about the signs of the coming of Jesus. There were 100's of people who claimed to be the messiah. I guess those who interpreted "the signs" is the sky were not too smart. I guess they were not "wise men." You may ask - then why are these wise men following a star. Well - I bet God put it in their heart to follow that star. As for me - I won't follow astrology unless God does a burning bush telling me the special meaning. Oh - and I will use it as he instructs - as a clock.
Mon Apr 21, 05:10:00 PM 2014 
 Stephen said...
Far more important than serving as clocks, stars are the source of all the elements heavier than hydrogen, helium and (I think) lithium. Up to iron, these elements are produced by nuclear fusion, and for elements heavier than iron by nucleosynthesis during explosions of supernovae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernova#Source_of_heavy_elements ). What this means in plain English is that you and everything around you is the product of normal stellar processes. We are all "star-stuff"!
Steve Weeks
Tue Apr 22, 12:53:00 PM 2014 
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Dwindling In Unbelief



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 04 April 2014How many did God kill in the Book of Mormon?
In a previous post, I compared the number of people killed in the Bible, Book of Mormon, and Quran. Since then, my son Philip and I have taken a much closer look at the Book of Mormon, and it turns out that I missed quite a few killings in that first attempt nearly eight years ago. So here's a new, more complete list. (I've also updated the previous list to include the missed killings.)
I've tried to use the same standard for the killings in the Book of Mormon as I did for the Bible in Drunk With Blood. But there are probably some that shouldn't be on the list, and others that should be. Let me know what you think.
In future posts, I'll try to tell the stories for each of the BoM killings. Heck, maybe there'll even be a Drunk With Blood: The Book of Mormon edition.    BoM Number  Estimate 
1  1 Nephi 4:10-18  Laban  1  1 
2  Jacob 7:15-20  Sherem  1  1 
3  Words of Mormon 14  Lamanites  -  10,000 
4  Mosiah 9:18  Lamanites  3,043  3,043 
5  Mosiah 10:19-20  Lamanites  -  10,000 
6  Mosiah 19:16-24  Noah is burned to death  1  1 
7  Alma 1:15  Nehor  1  1 
8  Alma 2:16-19  Amlicites  12,532  12,532 
9  Alma 2:27-28  Amlicites and Lamanites  -  10,000 
10  Alma 2:30-31  Amlici  1  1 
11  Alma 2:33-36  Amlicites and Lamanites   10,000 
12  Alma 14:8-13  Women and children burn to death  -  100 
13  Alma 14:27  Wall falls on priests and Lawyers of Ammonihah  -  10 
14  Alma 17:36-38  Lamanite robers  -  10 
15  Alma 28:2  Lamanites  -  30,000 
16  Alma 28:11  Lamanites  -  10,000 
17  Alma 30:2  Lamanites  -  10,000 
18  Alma 30:59  Korihor  1  1 
19  Alma 44:12  Zerahemnah  1  1 
20  Alma 44:17  Naked Lamanites  -  1,000 
21  Alma 50:22  Wicked Nephites and Lamanites   5,000 
22  Alma 51:19  Dissenters  4,000  4,000 
23  Alma 51:34  Amalickiah  1  1 
24  Alma 57:14  Lamanites  2,000  2,000 
25  Alma 62:9  "King-men"  -  10 
26  Alma 62:10  Freedom deniers  -  10 
27  Alma 62:11  Freedom haters  -  10 
28  Alma 62:25  Lamanites  -  20 
29  Alma 62:36  Lamanite king  1  1 
30  Alma 62:38  Lamanites  -  10,000 
31  Helaman 1:7-8  Paanchi  1  1 
32  Helaman 11:6  God and Nephi's famine  -  5,000 
33  3 Nephi 4:11  Giddianhi and his robbers  1  10,000 
34  3 Nephi 4:21  Robbers  -  30,000 
35  3 Nephi 4:27  More robbers  -  1,000 
36  3 Nephi 4:28  Zemnarihah  1  1 
37  3 Nephi 8:14  Jesus destroys large cities  -  20,000 
38  3 Nephi 8:15  City folks  -  1,000 
39  3 Nephi 8:16  People carried away in whirlwinds  -  20 
40  3 Nephi 9:1-15  Jesus destroyes 16 cities  -  16,000 
41  Mormon 2:15  Lamanites  -  5,000 
42  Mormon 3:8  Lamanites  -  1,000 
43  Mormon 6:9-15  Nephite soldiers  230,000  1,000,000 
44  Ether 9:30  King Kom's people  -  1,000 
45  Ether 9:31  Poisonous snakes bite the people  -  1,000 
46  Ether 11:7  Wars, famines and pestilences  -  100,000 
47  Ether 14:25  God's wrath kills the Jaredites  -  10,000 
48  Ether 15:2  Two million mighty men, with their wives and children  2,000,000  8,000,000 
49  Ether 15:19  God destroys the Jaredites  -  1,000,000 
   2,251,587  10 million 

Posted by Steve Wells at 4/04/2014 01:34:00 PM   Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
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8 comments:
 Autumn said...
Totals:
251,587
12,328,766
Fri Apr 04, 06:16:00 PM 2014 
 Stephen said...
"Book of Ether" - LOL, then...
Zzzzzzz...
Steve Weeks
Fri Apr 04, 06:53:00 PM 2014 
 Steve Wells said...
Thanks, Autumn, for the corrections on the totals. I see my mistake now. I put 2 million in the wrong column!
Sat Apr 05, 11:32:00 PM 2014 
 TheEngineer said...
Not only did he kill tons of people.. looks like his good credit history is not recognized!
http://nypost.com/2014/04/11/man-with-first-name-god-runs-into-credit-rating-issues/
Fri Apr 11, 07:41:00 AM 2014 
 Lifestyles 2012 said...
Steve - I can't help but notice that you are really upset that God kills so many. I am sure you feel that a good God would not kill so many. The problem is with the origination of sin when Satan mixed with man. God has been cleansing and sifting His crop ever since. His first major cleaning was when He flooded the world. He continues through time. God made us and it is His will to exalt or destroy. He is killing off sin. Sorry you think he is killing good-hearted people.
Sun Apr 20, 06:05:00 PM 2014 
 Stephen said...
You don't think there were any "good-hearted people" on Earth at the time of the "Flood"? How about the unborn children... were they touched by "sin"?
We know, thanks to science, that there never was one "Adam" and one "Eve" from whom we all descended. Therefore there was no "original sin", and the whole basis of the need for "forgiveness" evaporates.
Besides, an omniscient deity who (supposedly) created these first humans knowing that they would disobey, then punish not only them but all the descendants they would ever have would have to be a major-league asshole, don't you think?
Steve Weeks
Sun Apr 20, 07:12:00 PM 2014 
 Lifestyles 2012 said...
Steve - what the science stuff is right. God made Adam and Eve and they were perfect. The only problem was they did not have free will. The apple represents satan and the introduction of satan with His DNA. Eves first child after "eating the apple" was having a child with satan. Cane was born and God never accepted offerings from him. Satan was a murderer and populated the world. He introduced the world of sin to the world but at the same time - he offered free will. God is simply using satan. Over time he will sift the bad DNA of satan and will eventually find the only part He was looking for. That is free will to love God. We are given a choice. Remember - satan was originally Gods most beautiful angel. God is simply taking the best of what satan had in his DNA and will burn the rest. At the time of Noah - all the DNA that He needed for his ultimate purpose was inside Noah and his children. Everything and everyone else was not needed for His ultimate design. If you think that makes God mean or bad then you are not the one who created us and do not know His plans. I'm cool with it. Each year we seem to get better and nicer. 2000 years ago we feed people to lions. 200 years ago - we slaved our neighbors. But - I think we are getting better.
Mon Apr 21, 06:28:00 PM 2014 
 Stephen said...
You're just making shit up. And "Cane" is a kind of sugar.
Steve Weeks
Tue Apr 22, 06:19:00 PM 2014 
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God's Top 50 Killings in the Bible
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David, a man after God's own heart (WWDD?)
The worth of a woman: The Bible vs. the Quran
208 ways to get yourself saved
Real men pee standing up
Everybody must get stoned
Where do evil spirits come from?
What does Jesus have written on his testicles?
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?
Why Christian "Marriage" is Wrong
Is it wrong to burn people to death?
The Top 50 Bible Stories for kids
Which bits of the Bible are we still to believe?
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