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PostMormon Lecture Series- Don’t Look Back For What You Couldn’t Find  
Posted: 29 March 2016 06:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
skeptic
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Navigating a path forward after Mormonism can feel daunting at first.  Peter and Mary will share songs, stories and anecdotes from their own journey as well as insights gleaned from Peter's work as a therapist working with people going through faith transitions.
 
About Peter and Mary Danzig
The Danzig's resigned their membership in the LDS Church in 2007 after enduring ecclesiastical abuse instigated when Peter publicly disagreed with the Church's stance on gay marriage.  In 2009 the couple formed the folk/newgrass duo Otter Creek www.ottercreekduo.com.  Since then they have toured coast to coast.  The title track of their newest album "The Fiddle Preacher" climbed to #10 on the Folk Charts and has received international airplay.  Peter is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker and maintains a private practice helping people deal with complicated issues with leaving Mormonism http://peterdanzigcounseling.weebly.com/ . Mary is on the music faculty at Salt Lake Community College.
 
Sunday, April 3rd, at 2 pm in the Red Lion Hotel, 850 South Bluff Street, St. George, Utah.
 
For further information email .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)
 
 
This presentation is a must if having difficulty transitioning out of Mormonism.
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For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.” - John 3:20, KJV

The Bright Light of Skeptical Scrutiny is the best disinfectant.

Each of us is a prisoner if we live in a world without wonder and curiosity, and we must be willing to explore the world of ideas if we want to be free. Marietta McCarty explaining the meaning of Plato’s Allegory of the Cave.


   


Posted: 30 March 2016 08:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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Sounds awesome!
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Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.

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Posted: 30 March 2016 02:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Winyan
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Thanks for the link to their music website. I enjoyed listening to their songs. Both talented musicians.
 
When I worked for the mormon church a million years ago, Peter's father was working there. A genuinely humble and kind person. I respected him a lot. Their family suffered a lot with the treatment they got from the church. I'm glad to see they're doing well.


   


Posted: 01 April 2016 07:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
skeptic
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Going to be a great way to celebrate Conference Weekend in Utah's Dixie. Suppose to be 81 degress.
 
GO Southern Utah PostMormons! 
 Signature
For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.” - John 3:20, KJV

The Bright Light of Skeptical Scrutiny is the best disinfectant.

Each of us is a prisoner if we live in a world without wonder and curiosity, and we must be willing to explore the world of ideas if we want to be free. Marietta McCarty explaining the meaning of Plato’s Allegory of the Cave.


   


Posted: 04 April 2016 03:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
skeptic
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Just wanted to commend Peter/Mary and daughters for their outstanding talent, along with their musical presentation was a great narative helpful toward transisition out of Mormonism.
 
Peter also took question from our group.
 
A big thankyou from- Skeptic 
 
 
 Signature
For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.” - John 3:20, KJV

The Bright Light of Skeptical Scrutiny is the best disinfectant.

Each of us is a prisoner if we live in a world without wonder and curiosity, and we must be willing to explore the world of ideas if we want to be free. Marietta McCarty explaining the meaning of Plato’s Allegory of the Cave.


   


Posted: 04 April 2016 07:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
Bat1st
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The Danzigs did not disappoint.  My wife and I enjoyed their performance and comments.  Such a great family.
 


   


            
 
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2015 Conference
"LEAVING A LEGACY"
October 16-18
Doubletree Suites
SLC, Utah




















 


Financial Report for 2011 to Date

Financial Report for 2010 to Date

Financial Report for 2009

Twin Falls Newspaper Article

Twin Falls Billboard

Financial Report for 2009 to Date




The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]

Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]

Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]



 Coming up May 1’st 2016 - Kristyn Decker to lecture!
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (4/3)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
Imprompu get-together
[Dead Prophets Soc...] 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (3/6)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series- March 6th, 2016 Author Dave Nelson
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
Open House Meetup: 3/19/16
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
Train ride and picnic Meetup: 2/27/16
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Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series February 7th, 2016- Joe Rawlins
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SF Bay Area Super Bowl Party (Feb 7)
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Jan 10th, 2016-Southern Utah PostMormons will present an outstanding lecture combo
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Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
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Resignation Letter to My Family
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The Book of Mormon Musical comes to South Carolina!
Swearing Elder

Resignation Letter to My Family
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Utah County CALM meetup for November
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FACEBOOK INFO
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October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
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Resignation Letter to My Family
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Resignation Letter to My Family
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Nephi vs. Moroni  
Posted: 04 April 2016 11:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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LostInParadise
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I've been uncharacteristically absent from the forum the last few days (couldn't have distractions while listening to DHO's wonderful talk, right?), and it looks like I have a lot to catch up on.
 
Meanwhile, I was wondering if anyone here has studied the Nephi vs. Moroni versions of JS's angelic vision. There are multiple accounts (at least two original accounts), as shown on the FAIR page linked below, that disagree as to whether JS said it was Nephi or Moroni who visited him about the gold plates. Both versions are quoted several times in subsequent publications. Apologists claim that Nephi's name in the account was a clerical error by the scribe and that all subsequent Nephi references were based on the first error.
 
I started with mormonthink, then went to FAIR*, checking the JS papers along the way. Also found this great image on UTLM, but, according to apologists, the added words are from a second revelation the same month, and were combined for convenience (that whole concept, by the way, is odd to me. A revelation that fits mid-sentence into a previous one, rather than a stand-alone revelation?).
 
Point being: I'm trying to figure out whether JS really said it was Nephi at any time. This would be a serious blow to his credibility.
 
Not to lead the arguments, but here are my thoughts on it:
1. Was JS really so busy that, as editor of the T&S and in overseeing publication of the first Book of Commandments, he missed the error referencing Nephi (both times) AND didn't print any retraction? Nobody around him noticed the error in T&S and made sure it didn't get perpetuated when the BoC went to print?
2. If he did ever say it was Nephi, could you really forget which one visited you four times in one night to give you the most important book known to man? Especially if he returned to visit you another 20-30 times later on?
3. If it was only a clerical error, why did his own mother remain convinced it was Nephi? Why wasn't the clerical error corrected in the manuscript during his lifetime?
 
*FAIR drives me crazy. Every article I read on there seems to have several instances of selectively ignoring evidence not in their favor, providing evidence that is false or out of context, using questionable sources when it suits them but rejecting those same sources when that suits them, ad hominem attacks, answering questions that weren't asked but ignoring questions that were asked, etc.
 
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Posted: 05 April 2016 03:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
Hank
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If JS's 5-9 different versions of the first vision isn't enough to destory his credability, then I don't know what will. This is the first time I've heard of this Nephi/Moroni question. Not surprising. If Nephi had stuck, would the temples sport a Nephi statue holding onto the blood soaked sword he used to chop Laban's head off? Just wondering.... 

   


Posted: 05 April 2016 06:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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It's been a while, but I have read the mormonthink article on this topic and it really blew my mind. 
 
However, when I saw the title of your post, all I could think of was how these would make great downloadable characters for the latest Mortal Kombat game....Nephi wields Laban's sword while Moroni blasts him with his trumpet of doom.....
 
Nephi vs. Moroni......FIGHT! 
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“But if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it. None of your business whether it is right or wrong.”—Heber C Kimball, Journal of Discourses, Vol 6, Page 32


   


            
 
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Science vs. religion
by WinstonSmith
Help
by bradspencer74
Next Sunday--Lets All Take Our Shirts Off & Sit In The Sun--Instead Of--You Know
by Strong Free & Thankful
Joseph Smith and Starfleet team up
by peace out
Has anyone been watching "The Story of God" narrated by Morgan Freeman?
by former victim
A Ray of Hope
by Strong Free & Thankful
FLDS "Seed Bearer Ritual" (check out what Google has to offer on this)
by Strong Free & Thankful
2015 statistics
by Strong Free & Thankful
Youtube video about MTC/BYU brainwashing
by Starfleet
Losing friends
by Winyan
Nephi vs. Moroni
by 4thNephite
PostMormon Lecture Series- Don't Look Back For What You Couldn't Find
by Bat1st
DC (aka HCC aka "Court of Love") is tonight! Wish me luck.
by Bat1st
What else can you call it, but the GREAT MANIPULATION!
by Quartersawn
INTRODUCE YOURSELVES - TAG YOU'RE IT!
by Celestial Wedgie
My story is now over on Mormon Think
by WinstonSmith
Monday -- Let's Talk about SEX!
by maynardg
Patriarchal Blessing F-Bombs
by maynardg
I love not being Mormon but especially on days like today...What will you do?
by maynardg
I like honest and integritous general authorities
by Jon Marshall 

   http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/42222/






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2015 Conference
"LEAVING A LEGACY"
October 16-18
Doubletree Suites
SLC, Utah




















 


Financial Report for 2011 to Date

Financial Report for 2010 to Date

Financial Report for 2009

Twin Falls Newspaper Article

Twin Falls Billboard

Financial Report for 2009 to Date




The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]

Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]

Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]



 Coming up May 1’st 2016 - Kristyn Decker to lecture!
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (4/3)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
Imprompu get-together
[Dead Prophets Soc...] 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (3/6)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series- March 6th, 2016 Author Dave Nelson
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
Open House Meetup: 3/19/16
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
Train ride and picnic Meetup: 2/27/16
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series February 7th, 2016- Joe Rawlins
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
SF Bay Area Super Bowl Party (Feb 7)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
Jan 10th, 2016-Southern Utah PostMormons will present an outstanding lecture combo
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
New Year's Eve Party
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (1/3)
[San Francisco Bay...] 


Book of Mormon Tories
by Chris Sexton 
Why I am a Better Mother
by antipsicótica 
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by Barney 
Resignation Letter to My Family
sam2

Post-mormon Roles
sam2

Post-mormon Roles
former victim

The Book of Mormon Musical comes to South Carolina!
Swearing Elder

Resignation Letter to My Family
INRETROSPECT

Resignation Letter to My Family
oneanother

Utah County CALM meetup for November
BlackSheep2

FACEBOOK INFO
Crissy

FACEBOOK INFO
Barn

October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
Starfleet

October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
alvie

Why I am a Better Mother
by aworkinprogress 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
exmoinaz

SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
owned

The Mormon Mask
by Born Free 
Las Vegas Meetup--Jazz in the Park Saturday May 10 6:30PM
onendagus

Resignation Letter to My Family
ShadowSage

Resignation Letter to My Family
ShadowSage

Guru Busters
by Flora4 
Guru Busters
by Flora4 
Resignation Letter to My Family
Hbush1987

General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
Swearing Elder


            

Home Our Community
Discussion Forums
    · The Community Forum
 Post-Mormon Chapters

Chapters in Utah

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 Calm of South Davis County Post-Mormons
 Calm of Utah County Post-Mormons
 Dead Prophets Society Post-Mormons
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It Gets Better!
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Post-Mormon News Blog
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Forum Home  >  Member Forums  >  The Community Forum  >  Thread 
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Losing friends  
Posted: 04 April 2016 04:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Kevin2
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In the last 3 weeks I have lost 3 friends/coworkers to overdoses. 2 heroin and 1 to prescription pills. All 3 were married fathers. All 3 purported to be TBM. I haven't had deep religious conversations with them but all invited me to go to church activities in the last year. I regret now that I only politely declined. I wish I would have followed with a meaningful discussion about life. I don't know if these overdoses were on purpose. I do know that for whatever reason their life was one that needed escape. Either the temporary escape of a drug induced high or a more permanent escape. 
 
Im not sure what I hoped to achieve by posting here but this is not the kind of thing I can post to Facebook. 
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Posted: 04 April 2016 06:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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LostInParadise
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Kevin:
In the last 3 weeks I have lost 3 friends/coworkers to overdoses. 2 heroin and 1 to prescription pills. All 3 were married fathers. All 3 purported to be TBM. I haven't had deep religious conversations with them but all invited me to go to church activities in the last year. I regret now that I only politely declined. I wish I would have followed with a meaningful discussion about life. I don't know if these overdoses were on purpose. I do know that for whatever reason their life was one that needed escape. Either the temporary escape of a drug induced high or a more permanent escape. 
 
Im not sure what I hoped to achieve by posting here but this is not the kind of thing I can post to Facebook. 
 
Sad news. Sounds like all 3 were dealing with some serious issues. Too bad they weren't able to get the right help in time. 
 
It's hard to know what's going on with people, and it's even harder to help them. Don't beat yourself up, I'm sure you would have tried to help if you could. 
 
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Posted: 05 April 2016 04:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
Hank
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Kevin, I don't know where you live, but I'm in Salt Lake County. In Utah I feel like I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't. If I try to have a "life talk", they take it back to the church and defend what it teaches, even if that's what's driving them crazy. They shut me right down.
 
I work with a person from Alpine, in Utah County. He tells me they have quite the variety of suicides. Young men, old retired men, a woman here and there. And Utah County is the heart of Mormonism.
 
We can't beat ourselves up for what others do, especially if we weren't close and didn;t cause it. Many of the transition stories I have read included thoughts of suicide, some eventually chose to do it.Leaving the church...just realizing that you no longer believe but your whole world is built arounf Mormonism can be very traumatic.
 
I'm rambling now...I'll shut up.


   


Posted: 05 April 2016 04:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
former victim
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Its not just Mormonism Hank, that helps foster depressive behaviors, other organized religions do also. Speaking for myself here now, being raised Catholic and later caving in to Mormonism, provided me with a double guilt trip when I finally came to realize that they were both man made and not of divine origin.. 

   


Posted: 05 April 2016 05:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
Hank
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former victim:
Its not just Mormonism Hank, that helps foster depressive behaviors, other organized religions do also. Speaking for myself here now, being raised Catholic and later caving in to Mormonism, provided me with a double guilt trip when I finally came to realize that they were both man made and not of divine origin..
 
I think any religion that claims "truth" and or "divine authority" has the power to cause depressive behaviors. But never have I seen or heard of people killing themselves over conflicts with their religious beliefs until I moved to Utah. I'm sure it happens, but growing up Catholic, I never knew or heard of a Catholic killing themselves because of views differing from the Pope's.


   


Posted: 05 April 2016 06:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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WinstonSmith
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I hope this comment isn't to off topic:
 
Exmormons, Post Mormons and Mormons, that choose to engage in things like alcohol and drugs do face some challenges. If experimentation occurs by oneself in secrecy, there is a highrisk of overdosing. Mormons have all kinds of misconceptions about alcohol and without an experienced drinking buddy, they could be doing grave harm.
 
In states where recreational marijuana has been made legal, it is regulated very strictly. To the point that when purchasing, the attendant tells you recommended doses, how long to expect to be under the influence, how long to wait before you expect the drug to kick in etc... This last one is very important because if the high is not felt immediately, then a person might consume more and suffer bad consequences from an overdose.
 
I would not be supprised if your friends/co-workers overdosed accidently.  I had to learn to drink alcohol on my own---even though I would sit at the bar at my favorite brewery, the bar tenders just assumed I knew how to drink---I did not. I pushed the limits once and was lucky I did not die from alcohol poisoning (I thank Evolution for the vomit reflex!!!) This is one of the problems when you push these activities underground, and the Mormon WoW does just this: it pushes things like drinking alcohol underground and discussions of "safe drinking" cannot be discussed. Forty something persons like myself can get into trouble. 
 
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Posted: 05 April 2016 06:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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The lds church teaches that we are saved through grace after all that we can do. This puts you up against an impossible expectation of perfection. They will admit it's impossible to be perfect. At the same time perfectionism becomes a contest where the judges are not just your bishop or SP but your family and neighbors. It makes it nearly impossible to reach out for help when you need it. If you are not doing everything you can do then you can't be saved. That is a sad place to be.
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Posted: 05 April 2016 06:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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I am sory for your losses.  Its hard to really know how someone is feeling unless you really ask them. It can be hard to do. I am good at reading peoples actions and demeanor. 
 
Sometimes they will hide it behind a smile and say everything is fine. Life is great. When deep down inside them it is not.
 
Grieve for your friends.  
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Posted: 05 April 2016 09:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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That's a lot of loss. And very sad. But not your fault. There had to have been many factors involved that no one could have had any control over. Be kind to yourself while youre grieving. Sending good thoughts. 

   


            
 
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Youtube video about MTC/BYU brainwashing  
Posted: 02 April 2016 03:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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res ipsa
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Instead of watch conference I made this. 
Too mean?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMYQEvjQDvg
 
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Posted: 02 April 2016 06:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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   That was very well done !  Not mean at all, just very true.  Thanks for sharing it. 

   


Posted: 02 April 2016 06:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Cute!  I will never see ticky tacky the same again!  
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 04 April 2016 08:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Well done, and oh, so true!
 
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Posted: 04 April 2016 08:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Mean? I think not.
True? I think yes! 
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Posted: 04 April 2016 11:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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I know what I'm humming for the rest of the day. 
 
Thanks! 


   


Posted: 05 April 2016 02:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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That was fun to watch. Thanks!
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Posted: 03 April 2016 08:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
finex
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Couple of notes on the 2015 LDS statistic.
 
Total membership 15,634,199
New children of record 114,550
Converts baptized 257,402
Full-time missionaries 74,079
 
New children of record is lowest since 2009. This number has been declining rather steady pace. 
Converts baptized is lowest since 2006 so decreasing the missionary ages just isn't paying off.
Calculted growth 1,7% is continuing the trend being the lowest figure in the past 10 years.
Calculated deaths and resignations combined  110,090, also lowest since 2008.
Calculated birth rate 7,39/1000.
Calculated death & resignations rate 7,04/1000.
 
The world death rate is roughly 7,9/1000. If TSCC death & resignations would include only deaths the figure could be acceptable, but since it also includes resignations the reported number is false.Therefore it is fairly safe to conclude that TSCC does not subtract resigned people from the reported membership number.
 
The world birth rate 18,4/1000 is so significantly higher than the LDS church birth rate that the TSCC number just doesn't make sense. Utah birth rate is about 29% higher than that of the USA in general, which indicates that the birth rate amongst mormons should be actually higher than within the surrounding populations. Using the new children of record and the world birth rate gives an estimate of 6,2 million members. Adjusting the world birth rate with +29% brings down the estimate to 4,8 million members. Actual membership, the number of persons that define themselves as mormons in a level that they report new children to TSCC, is therefore roughly 1/3 of that the TSCC reports as it's membership. Based on the fact that the number of new children of record has been steadily decreasing the past years it is evident that TSCC is actually shrinking.


   


Posted: 04 April 2016 04:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
peace out
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finex:
 
TSCC reports as it's membership. Based on the fact that the number of new children of record has been steadily decreasing the past years it is evident that TSCC is actually shrinking.
 
finex
 
Thanks for putting this together!  I know the TSCC  try’s really hard to obscure the truth in numbers as with everything else. Nice job getting an estimate of the truth.  FYI I love it when they get bad news from their perspective. I’m glad less people will be hurt by the TSCC.  I'm always impressed by how far they will go to present any data in a positive light. It reminds me of corporate tax returns they have one set of books for the IRS on set for the investors. 
 
It appears the word is getting out on the church and it's showing in the hard numbers. 
 


   


Posted: 04 April 2016 02:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Celestial Wedgie
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finex:
Couple of notes on the 2015 LDS statistic.
 
Total membership 15,634,199
New children of record 114,550
Converts baptized 257,402
Full-time missionaries 74,079
 
New children of record is lowest since 2009. This number has been declining rather steady pace. 
Converts baptized is lowest since 2006 so decreasing the missionary ages just isn't paying off.
Calculted growth 1,7% is continuing the trend being the lowest figure in the past 10 years.
Calculated deaths and resignations combined  110,090, also lowest since 2008.
Calculated birth rate 7,39/1000.
Calculated death & resignations rate 7,04/1000.
 
The world death rate is roughly 7,9/1000. If TSCC death & resignations would include only deaths the figure could be acceptable, but since it also includes resignations the reported number is false.Therefore it is fairly safe to conclude that TSCC does not subtract resigned people from the reported membership number.
 
The world birth rate 18,4/1000 is so significantly higher than the LDS church birth rate that the TSCC number just doesn't make sense. Utah birth rate is about 29% higher than that of the USA in general, which indicates that the birth rate amongst mormons should be actually higher than within the surrounding populations. Using the new children of record and the world birth rate gives an estimate of 6,2 million members. Adjusting the world birth rate with +29% brings down the estimate to 4,8 million members. Actual membership, the number of persons that define themselves as mormons in a level that they report new children to TSCC, is therefore roughly 1/3 of that the TSCC reports as it's membership. Based on the fact that the number of new children of record has been steadily decreasing the past years it is evident that TSCC is actually shrinking.
Thanks for doing this work. I find this part particularly telling, with a secondary implication that the LDS church wants to be bigger/more influential than it is.
 
And that just fills me with .
 


   


Posted: 04 April 2016 02:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
former victim
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Ditto that!! 

   


Posted: 04 April 2016 02:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Quartersawn
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Celestial Wedgie:
finex:
Couple of notes on the 2015 LDS statistic.
 
Total membership 15,634,199
New children of record 114,550
Converts baptized 257,402
Full-time missionaries 74,079
 
New children of record is lowest since 2009. This number has been declining rather steady pace. 
Converts baptized is lowest since 2006 so decreasing the missionary ages just isn't paying off.
Calculted growth 1,7% is continuing the trend being the lowest figure in the past 10 years.
Calculated deaths and resignations combined  110,090, also lowest since 2008.
Calculated birth rate 7,39/1000.
Calculated death & resignations rate 7,04/1000.
 
The world death rate is roughly 7,9/1000. If TSCC death & resignations would include only deaths the figure could be acceptable, but since it also includes resignations the reported number is false.Therefore it is fairly safe to conclude that TSCC does not subtract resigned people from the reported membership number.
 
The world birth rate 18,4/1000 is so significantly higher than the LDS church birth rate that the TSCC number just doesn't make sense. Utah birth rate is about 29% higher than that of the USA in general, which indicates that the birth rate amongst mormons should be actually higher than within the surrounding populations. Using the new children of record and the world birth rate gives an estimate of 6,2 million members. Adjusting the world birth rate with +29% brings down the estimate to 4,8 million members. Actual membership, the number of persons that define themselves as mormons in a level that they report new children to TSCC, is therefore roughly 1/3 of that the TSCC reports as it's membership. Based on the fact that the number of new children of record has been steadily decreasing the past years it is evident that TSCC is actually shrinking.
Thanks for doing this work. I find this part particularly telling, with a secondary implication that the LDS church wants to be bigger/more influential than it is.
 
And that just fills me with .
 
 But how can they do that? 
I, and thousands of others, sent in our resignations from the church club. How can they legally still call us members of their club?  
Sounds like they are having trouble leaving alone those that left the church.   (But then we knew that.)
 
Thanks for your number crunching, finex. 
 
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Posted: 05 April 2016 03:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Membership stats drive me nuts. The church, in all reality, may be being honest on this, here's why IMO. Yes, thousands have resigned...how many thousands? 5K? 10K? 100K? Even at 100K that's still a tiny fraction (.6%)and well within a margin of error. The recent big resignation push/demonstration brought in under 2K resignations last I saw in the SL Trib.
 
"But only about 1/3 are active . The church is shrinking."Based on the numbers I've seen, I believe this, but the key word is "active". The 2/3 that are inactive haven't resigned. They're still on the roles as members and in all reality, the church has no way of really knowing who is active or not. Now if you got those 2/3 to resign, then we would be talking serious numbers and hit to the psycheof the church and its actives.


   


Posted: 05 April 2016 04:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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 When I start seeing 'for sale' signs on the empty buildings. That moment will be priceless. 

   


Posted: 05 April 2016 04:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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LostInParadise
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Hank:
Membership stats drive me nuts. The church, in all reality, may be being honest on this, here's why IMO. Yes, thousands have resigned...how many thousands? 5K? 10K? 100K? Even at 100K that's still a tiny fraction (.6%)and well within a margin of error. The recent big resignation push/demonstration brought in under 2K resignations last I saw in the SL Trib.
 
"But only about 1/3 are active . The church is shrinking."Based on the numbers I've seen, I believe this, but the key word is "active". The 2/3 that are inactive haven't resigned. They're still on the roles as members and in all reality, the church has no way of really knowing who is active or not. Now if you got those 2/3 to resign, then we would be talking serious numbers and hit to the psycheof the church and its actives.
 
Good point; maybe the resignation numbers aren't such a big deal at the rate they're going. I think the church does have a really good picture of how many are inactive, though. Should be pretty easy to take the attendance numbers and adjust them to typical attendance for "active" members, e.g. 3 out of 4 Sundays or something.
 
Can you just imagine if, say, a million inactive members resigned in 1 year (and put their names on a central list just in case the church has been hiding that number)?
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Posted: 05 April 2016 05:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
Hank
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LostInParadise:
Hank:
Membership stats drive me nuts. The church, in all reality, may be being honest on this, here's why IMO. Yes, thousands have resigned...how many thousands? 5K? 10K? 100K? Even at 100K that's still a tiny fraction (.6%)and well within a margin of error. The recent big resignation push/demonstration brought in under 2K resignations last I saw in the SL Trib.
 
"But only about 1/3 are active . The church is shrinking."Based on the numbers I've seen, I believe this, but the key word is "active". The 2/3 that are inactive haven't resigned. They're still on the roles as members and in all reality, the church has no way of really knowing who is active or not. Now if you got those 2/3 to resign, then we would be talking serious numbers and hit to the psycheof the church and its actives.
 
Good point; maybe the resignation numbers aren't such a big deal at the rate they're going. I think the church does have a really good picture of how many are inactive, though. Should be pretty easy to take the attendance numbers and adjust them to typical attendance for "active" members, e.g. 3 out of 4 Sundays or something.
 
Can you just imagine if, say, a million inactive members resigned in 1 year (and put their names on a central list just in case the church has been hiding that number)?
 
 There's no doubt that the church knows how many inactives there are. Every quarter each ward has to report attendance numbers. They compare this to the total membership on record and know what % is inactive, but they keep including the inactives. Not only does that help numbers, but in theory, some may come back to activity, so you never really know who is inactive unless they resign.


   


Posted: 05 April 2016 06:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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Reminds me of tracting in France.  We would run into Catholic families who would say  --  I am Catholic but not practicing.  I bet there are thousands of mormon who are mormon but not practicing because resigning is not a viable option for them at the present time  --  family, social and maybe occupational pressure to maintain the status quo  --  don't rock the boat.  For me, I had arrived at the point where if I had to show and do the motions, I would have run screaming from the morg  --  I had reached my enough level.  When I was a clerk, I was privy to the memberships stats for the stake and I noticed that three important stats were pretty close most of the time  --  sacrament mtg attendance, tithing payers, TR holders  --  all around 30-35%.  So for me when they give that stats for the whole church, 30-35% of that number are the TBMorgbots and the rest is fluff. 

   


Posted: 05 April 2016 04:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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I live in the Midwest, not by Utah at all. 
 
It is very rare for me to run into a fellow postmo.  That is - someone who grew up in the church and decided to leave the church.
 
I have run into quite a few transient Mormons.  People who joined during High School and moved on later - like people tend to do.  Oh, I was a Mormon too for a couple of years and then we moved and I just didn't like my new ward.  Oh, my family was Mormon when I was little and then we stopped going. 
 
It seems pretty normal for Protestant people in the Midwest to switch up religions.  We went here because of the youth group, now we are going here because we know the drummer (yes other churches have drummers and coffee and this freaks me out even 20 years after the fact!) 
 
I think a really large majority of inactives - especially in other countries than the US - think of the church as a blip in their lives.  Didn't mean much to them.  These people are never going to resign.  They have no motivation to.  They went to the church for a little while the same way they joined a gym and then found a better gym. 
 
How many tithe-payers does the church have - that I think would be an interesting number to hear.   
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Posted: 05 April 2016 09:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
finex
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IMO it's dishonest to claim people that don't want to associate themselves with the church as members. Pretty good measure for this is the children of record since that at least demonstrates some level of willingness to associate with the church, whether that is cultural, social or religious. Therefore the vast majority of the "inactives" fall within this category of "not wanting to associate" that TSCC claims as members.
 
Within the past few years the TSCC has lost an average about 2000 "new children of record" annually. Using the world birth rate with this figure estimate the number of lost members this amounts to about 160 000 people per year leaving the church. Just by looking at the number of deaths and resignations that I calculated from the official TSCC published statistics the disparity is significant.
 
I believe TSCC is claiming to have more members just to build an illusion of grandeur within the minds of the active members. A kind of argumentum ad populum based on fabricated numbers to build confidence within the members that they are in the true church and the work of the Lord is advancing. Simply put, TSCC is using all the tricks possible to manipulate people, including inflating the numbers.
 
 


   


Posted: 06 April 2016 01:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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My wife is friends with a woman who is a member of our local LDS ward. She was quite upset when my wife and I quit the morg 4 years ago.
 
Anyway, she is a very strong member and just came back from a mission with her husband last year.
 
Our ward was split into 2 wards back in 2005 due to increasing membership numbers. Everybody was saying how great it was that we were splitting into two wards. The Lord was blessing us with increased membership in the community.
 
Last year, the wards went back to only one ward. When my wife's friend told my wife about this, the friend mentioned that this move back to one ward was a "blessing" because when the wards were split, there wasn't the same feeling of community between the two wards, and now that everyone is back together, it sounds so wonderful during sacrament meeting when all those voices are singing together. It's glorious!!
 
I feel like telling her, "no it's not a blessing, the reason you went back to one ward was because the membership is shrinking".
 
The morg likes to tout itself as a vibrant growing church, but I think the tide it turning. People aren't falling for the bulls**t as quickly as they did before, and many members are leaving because they're tired of putting up with the bulls**t.  
 
Also, as a side note, I don't mean to be disrespectful, but President Monson hasn't been doing well lately, and while I don't wish him ill, I wonder if all the stress of perpetuating the lie is affecting his health.  
 


   


Posted: 06 April 2016 09:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
finex
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finex:

Within the past few years the TSCC has lost an average about 2000 "new children of record" annually. Using the world birth rate with this figure estimate the number of lost members this amounts to about 160 000 people per year leaving the church. Just by looking at the number of deaths and resignations that I calculated from the official TSCC published statistics the disparity is significant.
 
 
 
 Duh! I wasn't really paying attention what I was typing here. The 2000 loss of "new children of record" means an estimate of 160 000 net loss in membership per year. So when they claim to babtize 257 042 new converts at the same time over 400 000 walk out.


   


Posted: 06 April 2016 03:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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I think if the church undeniably hit negative growth, it would tip the scales. Maybe we could run an incentive program, give people an awesome book or something if they resign. Giving away books has worked pretty well for the morg sales force.
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Posted: 06 April 2016 05:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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I think we do need to pass out books and documentaries on how the church has destroyed our families, marriages, bank accounts, peace of mind, etc.  I think we also need bill boards with some of the most ugly and truthful of church leader--past and present--quotes.  The info needs to be out there!
 
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Posted: 06 April 2016 04:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
former victim
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Just goes to show, that they sure expect a lot out of their women and children. How can any woman in her right mind consent to that? 

   


Posted: 06 April 2016 05:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Truly, sex is used as a control mechanism by horny men in positions of power. It reminds me of Bring' em Young's decree that a man who desires another man's wife may do so if he holds a higher priesthood office. 
 
"Sorry Brother Jackson, but you're just an Elder, and that hot, voluptuous 18 year old bride of yours is just too much eye candy for me to overlook. As a high priest, I claim her as my own in the name of (mormon) God. Now hand her over!"
 
"Not so fast there, Brother Larsen! You may be a high priest, but you're only the ward membership clerk. I'm on the stake high council! In the name of (mormon) Jesus, hand her over!"
 
"Boys, boys! I'm an APOSTLE! In the name of Joseph Smith, she's mine! And I think no more of taking another wife than I do of buying another cow."
 
"Sorry Heber, but I'm gonna pull rank on you here. Sister Jackson-Larsen-Kimball, you may now add the sacred name of Young to your last name!"
 
"Dammit Brigham! You always take the good ones!" 
 
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Posted: 06 April 2016 11:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized:
Truly, sex is used as a control mechanism by horny men in positions of power. It reminds me of Bring' em Young's decree that a man who desires another man's wife may do so if he holds a higher priesthood office. 
 
"Sorry Brother Jackson, but you're just an Elder, and that hot, voluptuous 18 year old bride of yours is just too much eye candy for me to overlook. As a high priest, I claim her as my own in the name of (mormon) God. Now hand her over!"
 
"Not so fast there, Brother Larsen! You may be a high priest, but you're only the ward membership clerk. I'm on the stake high council! In the name of (mormon) Jesus, hand her over!"
 
"Boys, boys! I'm an APOSTLE! In the name of Joseph Smith, she's mine! And I think no more of taking another wife than I do of buying another cow."
 
"Sorry Heber, but I'm gonna pull rank on you here. Sister Jackson-Larsen-Kimball, you may now add the sacred name of Young to your last name!"
 
"Dammit Brigham! You always take the good ones!" 
 
 
 And the most sickening part is that's actually just about the way they did it too. If they couldn't get her that way, they'd call the husband on a mission and take her while he was gone.


   


Posted: 06 April 2016 12:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Winyan: 
And the most sickening part is that's actually just about the way they did it too. If they couldn't get her that way, they'd call the husband on a mission and take her while he was gone.
 
 Either that, or castrate the poor fellow.
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Posted: 06 April 2016 02:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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What stands out for me in these revelations, is the entitlement mentality and pure narcissism that is exhibits.
And the Alpha dog mentality - if that's not too insulting to dogs.
And further that you don't have to be a rocket scientist to see the proximity to the mindset in the upper circles of mainstream corporate Mormondom.
I wonder what goes on between the ears of the wives of Mormon power-males, as they read these things. They must feel torn between recognising and resisting recognising the similarities and the cogdis must help SSRI sales in Utah.
 
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Posted: 06 April 2016 05:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized:
Winyan: 
And the most sickening part is that's actually just about the way they did it too. If they couldn't get her that way, they'd call the husband on a mission and take her while he was gone.
 
 Either that, or castrate the poor fellow.
 
 Thank you former victim--for the thread!  MU and everyone else--we must preserve true history.
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
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A Ray of Hope  
Posted: 03 April 2016 06:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Jon Marshall
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As i have said before my wife is very TBM. Well, yesterday she showed and expressed a different side of that. She is doubting. She is doubting the Church. 
 
She said that she is "fed Up", that she is emotionally drained on the constant "guilt" she has from not being able to attend Church. She says she feels worthless, that she feels that she is pretty much a ward  pariah.
 
I asked her if I had in anyway made her feel this way and she said NO. She said that she has been thinking this for a while and has come to realize that she is letting the IN GRAINED Fear of what her family will think run her spiritual life. She used to get weekly phone calls from her Parents and asked what the lesson was on, just to make sure she went to Church.   They do not do that anymore. Because she can't go to Church and they know it.
 
She also gets 1 to 2 letters a week from a great neighbor who is honestly really nice and giving, but she always adds little barbs ( unknowingly of course ) that make my wife feel worse. Some of the subjects in her letters have been "You can do More", " Are you steadfast in your Faith", "Do not Doubt" and a whole plethora of other Guilt ridden subjects.
 
I asked her does she feel that the Ward is treating her different and she said yes, and I said do you think its because of ME, because I do. I said they are lumping us in together.
 
She said YES, but they don't know you. They don't know how good a husband you are and how much you do for us.   I told her that i have never posted anything ANTI. She agreed.
 
She said you just post stuff to get people to think and see outside of the Church box.
 
 
So A little Ray of hope has happend. I am hoping it continues.  *Crossing Fingers* 
 Signature http://www.jonathankmarshall.blogspot.com


   


Posted: 03 April 2016 07:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
Free2Live
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This is great hope! Your wife holds on to actual events instead of accepting others interpretation of your combined situation. Here is a part of ACIM that teaches about love versus fear. I found it useful in helping myself tunnel out of the cult called a church. 
 
http://www.circleofa.org/library/capsules/robert-perry/why-is-fear-the-opposite-of-love/
 
I accept god as love.  
 Signature
One is as committed into testimony as much as they pay into the belief in dollars, time, talent and energy. Afterall, it has to be true once you have signed the lifetime subscription and you have a track record to defend.


   


Posted: 03 April 2016 07:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Jon Marshall
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FreeLive:
This is great hope! Your wife holds on to actual events instead of accepting others interpretation of your combined situation. Here is a part of ACIM that teaches about love versus fear. I found it useful in helping myself tunnel out of the cult called a church. 
 
http://www.circleofa.org/library/capsules/robert-perry/why-is-fear-the-opposite-of-love/
 
I accept god as love.  
 
 I think she is seeing how much members rely on a persons activity in the Church.  And if a spouse is not active, that means the other spouse must be as well.
 
 
 Signature http://www.jonathankmarshall.blogspot.com


   


Posted: 03 April 2016 07:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Morethanmo
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It's so good to hear about this change! I'm glad she sees the real you and not your "mantle of authority", like so many members do. It sounds like if you let her work things out, she may evolve with you. smile That's a happy thing.
 Signature
__________________________________________

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
~Epicurus
__________________________________________


   


Posted: 04 April 2016 08:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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maynardg
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YES!!!! 

   


Posted: 04 April 2016 09:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Quartersawn
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Awesome!! It is good to see a success story. 
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Why would you consider a man a prophet whose morals are worse than your own? Having claimed to commune with deity, be visited by angels and receive revelations, should he not be held to a higher standard? —me


   


Posted: 04 April 2016 02:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Celestial Wedgie
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Jon, wow!  This is great. It looks like you two have turned a corner, that being united as a couple has higher priority than being devout as members. That gives me so much hope for the two of you.
 
Thanks for sharing this. Sometimes my heart feels bruised from all of the stories of broken families, blamed children, and shattered marriages that are left in the wake of an unfeeling church exerting its self-promoting power. I like hearing the victories and intact loves.


   


Posted: 04 April 2016 02:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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Winyan
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This is a happy thing. Thanks for sharing it. 

   


Posted: 04 April 2016 05:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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This is so Awesome Jon! How good this must make you feel!  
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 04 April 2016 06:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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LostInParadise
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Awesome news! Even if it doesn't lead to her leaving the church (hopefully it does), this is a positive thing for your marriage. 
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Once mormon, twice shy.


   


Posted: 05 April 2016 06:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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Jon Marshall
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We haven't talked about it since the other day. I am thinking I will bring it up more when we try to get away for a few days to Park City.  I don't want to make her plant her feet and stand up for the Church.  
 
 I am sure when she goes to Texas to visit Family she will get the big brunt of Church and many conversations about our marriage and how i am just providing her the "TEMPORAL" things here on Earth.   
 
I have a clear mind and I don't have to explain my reasonings to anyone. I will just point them to various sites, like Mormon Think and even the Essays. 
 Signature http://www.jonathankmarshall.blogspot.com


   


Posted: 05 April 2016 12:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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That's some well-deserved good news, John.  Thanks for letting us know.  
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Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.

Phillip K. Dick


   


Posted: 06 April 2016 10:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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Jon Marshall
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Thank you all for your kind words and support.  
 
I have not brought up the subject since. I want her to continue to think, ponder and pray :)
 
She has issues with the Church and its new policies on gays, the double standards of owning businesses that go against their moral code.  
 
Day to day is all i can hope for with her health as well as her Church stance. 
 Signature http://www.jonathankmarshall.blogspot.com


   


Posted: 06 April 2016 11:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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Winyan
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Jon Marshall:
Thank you all for your kind words and support.  
 
I have not brought up the subject since. I want her to continue to think, ponder and pray :)
 
She has issues with the Church and its new policies on gays, the double standards of owning businesses that go against their moral code.  
 
Day to day is all i can hope for with her health as well as her Church stance. 
 
 That's the best plan... to wait while she goes at her own pace and comes to her own conclusions. It sounds like the truth is starting to find its way to the surface.
 


   


Posted: 06 April 2016 06:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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Jon Marshall:
Thank you all for your kind words and support.  
 
I have not brought up the subject since. I want her to continue to think, ponder and pray :)
 
She has issues with the Church and its new policies on gays, the double standards of owning businesses that go against their moral code.  
 
Day to day is all i can hope for with her health as well as her Church stance. 
 
 You are being wise Jon--to love her so much--neither of you will ever regret--and to allow her to come to her senses at her own pace.  Bless you--with love--from those who believe in love--not religion. 
 Signature
I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


            
 
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Has anyone been watching “The Story of God” narrated by Morgan Freeman?  
Posted: 05 April 2016 04:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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The first airing was last Sunday evening on the Nat Geo channel and I found it quite interesting....so far.   

   


Posted: 05 April 2016 09:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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I didn't see it. What have they said so far? 

   


Posted: 06 April 2016 03:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
former victim
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Quite a bit actually. I recorded it so I could learn and compare different belief systems. Morgan, I think, is attempting to show the major religions of the world in several installments over the course of the series.
 
Starting back in Egypt, 5,000 years ago, and showing what the Egyptians believed happened after death and how that belief formed their lives back in the day.
 
Going into other current major religions in upcoming episodes and what they conceptualize happens after death, should provide more understanding, to the viewers, especially myself, who find this intriguing,
 
 Learning what others are brought up to think about the meaning of life and the unanswerable question of what might happen after death.


   


Posted: 06 April 2016 05:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
peace out
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former victim: 
I think we all have been a bit obsessed with this subject over the years. I saw part of it.
I just hope they don't get to nicey-nice with the religions and hold to evidence and data.
There is little to learn from religion other than a historical perspective unless you hold to evidence. From the bit I saw sounds like they tried to bring objectivity into the discussion.
 
I will have to pull it up on DVR and watch the whole thing. 
thanks for the recomend. 
 
Update: it's not on my on-demand TV but I set it up to record first episode, S1 E1 is still being broadcast. 


   


Posted: 07 April 2016 04:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Peace Out, Morgan seems to be striving for that objectivity and facts/evidence. Whether he manages to stay the course, remains to be seen. 

   


            
 
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Financial Report for 2011 to Date

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Twin Falls Billboard

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Native American DNA
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Joseph Smith and Starfleet team up  
Posted: 05 April 2016 03:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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I seen Res Ispa's video of Little Boxes that she posted here: 
  http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/42216/#622346
 
Then I reshared it to two Google+'s. I have been working on a project for General Conference as well and this is what I came up with:
  http://saltlakecity.craigslist.org/rnr/5521016837.html
 
I have been thinking a lot about what Sam Harris pointed out; how this taboo on questioning a person's absurd religious faith is destroying humanity. The trick is doing it without getting banned from a LDS forum. At first you post something that questions their religion and their all like, "Hey- your on the wrong forum. This is a forum for believers!" But really all I see on the LDS Google+ Forum is small time business people looking to put links back to their sites.
 
There are many of us on this forum. We could hole up here and wait and hope for the end to the LDS religion as we know it or we can direct our obversations to where they are truly needed, to forums and blogs of the true believers.
 
I always work to not get banned.
 
We need to put our boots on the ground - inside the Internet. 
 
I am not selling anything on Starfleet's website. I am just posting this link in case a reader is curious: starfleetmission.com
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Posted: 06 April 2016 04:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Not being a fan of the graphic novel genre, or comic books in general, to me this is just a collection of pictures with a loosely attached theme, which I cannot follow. While I admire the artistry, as a whole it makes no sense to me. Is there any explanation or guide one could follow along?
 
Maybe I'm just too old.  
 
 
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Posted: 06 April 2016 08:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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You don't have to get it - just glad you responded. And I know it's hard to follow.
 
From my perspective - there must be something I can do to change the world besides watching TV. I know its not great but its specificly formulated to hit certain nerves with certain church leadership.
 
Those monsters are going down. I will see it in my lifetime.  The LDS people will have their greatest hour yet- when they jettison the garbage (false doctrine, establishment leaders) and take flight to building a colony on Mars. It could happen.
 
No, really, it could. 
 
Look at their resources. If the LDS people took to that initiative they would have a chance. A really good chance actually. Just... how to convince them that their dead relatives are waiting for them on Mars... Hmmmm. Excuse me, got to get back to the drawing board. 
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Posted: 07 April 2016 06:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Starfleet:
You don't have to get it - just glad you responded. And I know it's hard to follow.
 
From my perspective - there must be something I can do to change the world besides watching TV. I know its not great but its specificly formulated to hit certain nerves with certain church leadership.
 
Those monsters are going down. I will see it in my lifetime.  The LDS people will have their greatest hour yet- when they jettison the garbage (false doctrine, establishment leaders) and take flight to building a colony on Mars. It could happen.
 
No, really, it could. 
 
Look at their resources. If the LDS people took to that initiative they would have a chance. A really good chance actually. Just... how to convince them that their dead relatives are waiting for them on Mars... Hmmmm. Excuse me, got to get back to the drawing board. 
 
Actually they only planets I know of mentioned by Mormon folklore is the star Kolob and the planet nearest to it (gods crib). The Moon with 6 foot tall moon men who dress like Quakers and B.Y. said the Sun was inhabited, maybe some sort of plasma based life.  
all hail Zenu


   


            
 
 ‹‹ Has anyone been watching "The Story of God" narrated by Morgan Freeman?        FLDS "Seed Bearer Ritual" (check out what Google has to offer on this) ››  
 
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Next Sunday—Lets All Take Our Shirts Off & Sit In The Sun—Instead Of—You Know  
Posted: 04 April 2016 07:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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 Vit D heals the heart.  Sitting in church can break it.
 
http://www.bbc.com/news/health-35959556
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 05 April 2016 04:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Come on down to Florida.  Sunny and in the 70s and 80s.  And - from sheer, unadulterated vanity - I like taking my shirt off at the beach and showing up 20 year olds, ROTF. 
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Posted: 05 April 2016 09:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Sounds like a fun idea, but I'd probably get arrested.  

   


Posted: 05 April 2016 03:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Winyan:
Sounds like a fun idea, but I'd probably get arrested. 
 
 I know a few spots in South Florida where there are enougn Eurpoeans where you would not even be looked at twice.  Or just go to Boulder Colorado.  Its perfectly legal by city ordinance.  :)
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Posted: 05 April 2016 06:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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I did that last Sunday. 
Got my blanket and pillow out on the lawn, a chicken wrap and a beer and just layed there for about 10 minutes (about all my white skin can take).
Since I live in a condo/townhouse I could hear part of the conference coming out of my neighbors windows. Fortunately, I could only hear the organ during the hymn (Guide Us, Oh Thou Great Jehovah) and not the blabbering of those speaking. 
Oh well, it was almost perfect!  
 
This Sunday will be better, no conference!  
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Posted: 07 April 2016 11:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Thinking...most of us are just incredibly human beings to have this option for Sunday.  When I was a TBM and gave the soul-eating machine 10--20 hours a week, there was precious little free time.  Free at last!
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


            
 
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Science vs. religion  
Posted: 07 April 2016 08:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Can religious tradition still fit in a scientific world? 
 
At least, that's how I always framed the question.  "Can religious claims (specifically LDS dogma) be reconciled with an ever-growing and ever-more convincing body of scientific research?" The more I learned the more difficult the question became to answer.
 
I always used to borrow the sickly arguments from intelligent design to account for existence, but always with some self-consciousness (because at their very, very best intelligent design arguments only introduce a level of complexity and ambiguity into an otherwise straight-forward explanation, thereby 'multiplying entities unnecessarily').
 
It doesn't seem pertinent to frame the question that way anymore.  Now I find myself asking, "Is it even pertinent to consider religious claims when contemplating the universe?"
 
I used to point out that places like our earth--indeed, our solar system, are vanishingly rare in the universe.  And they are.  The striking thing about the night sky should not be the thousands of stars visible to the naked eye, but the vast emptiness between us and the stars.  And the astonishing scarcity of everything that surrounds us on earth and that we take so for granted. Interstellar space--that mind-numbing expanse--averages 2 or 3 ionized Hydrogen atoms per cubic meter.  It's so vast and so empty (compare that to Avogadro's number to figure out how many cubic meters of space you would have to travel to encounter a single Mole of Hydrogen!)  The universe is composed of 75% Hydrogen and 23% Helious; 1% Oxygen and .5% Carbon--Carbon--the stuff we're made of!  And every element in our sight was nucleosynthesized in the fusion furnaces of stars billions of years ago!  Surely, I reasoned, this painstaking preparation, this concentration of priceless, scarce matter is proof of painstaking preparation by a divine entity.  
 
And the argument, I figured, gains steam when considering complex creatures such as ourselves--an accident?  No, much more likely to have been engineered, intelligently created, strings pulled from a distance, gentle nudges here and there, right?
 
But there came a tipping point when I began to realize that it just wasn't necessary to employ some grand comsocrator in the sky to explain everything.  And after a while, the actions of a God began to look like interference in a cosmos that...just didn't need a Heavenly clockmaker anymore.
 
Most recently, I have stumbled onto some new work by a young physicist by the name of Jeremy England--he's an associate professor at MIT--that is really exciting.  It advances complexity--the study of how and why complex structures appear in the universe--by orders of magnitude.  It is especially relevant to the study biological evolution.  He argues that energy absorption in non-equilibrium thermodynamic systems is optimized by the constinuent components of that system.  Hence, molecules, for example, self-organize according to optimal energy absorption patterns.  This is true even for blacktop, sand, rock, or glass.  Mix in some organic ingredients and things get really interesting.  Slime on a pond will actually configure itself to maximize the absorption of energy from sunlight. Evolution herewith advances from '1 in a billion accident' to entire ecosystems proactively changing and evolving according to energy absorption potentials.  It is beginning to appear that given a few million sunny days and some organic goop, complex systems--life--can't help but appear.  
 
And when I ask myself the question, "Is it even pertinent to consider religious claims when contemplating the universe?" increasingly the answer seems to be no.  
 
 
 
 
 
  


   


Posted: 07 April 2016 08:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Actually, blacktop is organic, but you know what I mean.
 


   


Posted: 07 April 2016 12:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Nice post! 
 
I really don't think it's even necessary to dig that deep to disprove the Judeo-Christian creation myths. The LDS church still maintains that the earth is 6,000 years old, and that there was no death before the fall of Adam.
 
At the Page Museum at the LaBrea Tar Pits in Los Angeles, one can see bones and skulls from mammals that are more than 6,000 years old. At the Royal Tyrrell Museum of Palaeontology in Drumheller, Alberta , they have actual reptilian fossils, millions of years old, many of which were found in the surrounding hills and coulees. This earth is billions of years old, not 6,000, and the animals, the dead animals in these museums, all died before the fall of Adam!
 
We know the process which turns organic matter into fossil fuels takes hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of years. All this from a 6,000 year old earth? Not even remotely possible!
 
Yes, I've heard the apologetic theory that this world was composed of spare parts from other worlds, that the oil and fossils and even mastodons were placed in the ground and ice by God, and that the earth is, indeed, 6,000 years old. My reply to that is according to mormonism, God created this world out of matter unorganized, and if he used bits and pieces from other worlds, it could not have been unorganized, plain and simple!
 
No, the 6,000 year old earth is nothing more than a myth, just as unlikely as a jolly fat man in a red suit coming down your chimney a few days after the winter's solstice.
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Posted: 07 April 2016 02:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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 "Is it even pertinent to consider religious claims when contemplating the universe?"
 
 
Well, my answer would be a definite no.  What is the very basis of science and the scientific method.  It is to take observable, measureable, quantifiable facts, use them to construct a hypothesis, test the hypothesis with an experiment that yiels obervable, measureable, data to see if your hypothesis was correct and to reach a conclusion.  It is also key that your experiment and its results are able to be replicated and confirmed by other scientists using the same methods.
 
The question is a simple one really - How can one test something such as God (or anything supernatural) using a method (science) that is limited to the observable, measurable, natural world?  The two are simply incompatable methods.  No one can ever answer does God exist - or does anything supernatural exist - with the scientific method.  There is no evidence to even form the idea of a test.
 
What is testable is IF or WHEN a claim is made that this or these transcendent entities interact with the natural world.  And when those things are tested, they answer is always the same - there is nothing there.  Take the studies of intersessory prayer.  They show that patients who believe and use intercessory prayer have equal to or slightly less healthful outcomes than those who do not.  Take the Word of Wisdom.  Studies show the benefits of drinking moderate amounts of coffee and wine, especially red wine.  Take the Book of Mormon.  Archeologists show absolutely no evidence that any of the peoples of the Book of Mormon ever existed.  Take the pronouncement of Spencer Kimball in the 1960s that Native American children were turning white as they accepted the Church.  Have not seen a single one yet.
 
So, what claims of religion are, in fact, testable and falsifiable when it comes to the origin and nature of the Universe?  What claims of Mormonism or any other religion yield themselves to scientific study?  There are extremely few, if any, that have any relevance. 
 
Religions often claim that they have answers to scientific questions, but do they?  
 
What does science do?  It takes observations, tests hypothesis, which lead to conclusions.
 
Religion does the opposite.  It takes conclusions, creates hypotheses from those conclusions and then find observations to fit their hypothesis.    It's backwards.  So, I find that I discount any religious appeal to science off the bat, as it always has a conclusion behind it driving the them - God did it.  How can one be an honest investigator of truth when one already has a conclusion which one has accepted as truth?
 
Edit - Just an observation about a comment you made.  Calling evolution 1 in a billion, etc.  
 
Religionist use the argument all the time.  But it is an appeal to ignorance.  How can one make such a generalization about the likelihood of evolution when the number of subjects you can study is - 1, the planet we live on.  We do not even have the technology available yet - or rather its available, but we have not done it yet - to locate planets the size of Earth.  We have no idea at all just how many are out there, but considering how many Gas Giants we have found, the number could be staggering.  Still a sample size of 1 is a paltry number to draw conclusions on in science.  Only when we have at least some observations of planets our size that could support life as we know it, THEN can we draw any conclusions about how unique or common or problable evolution (or what you really should be saying is abiogenesis, as evolution is a directly observed fact.)
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Posted: 07 April 2016 03:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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I usually agree with bradspencer, but in this case I come to a different conclusion: sure, it's pertinent to ask what religion has to say about the cosmos. But it's pertinent only because of social reasons. From a physics/biology/cosmology perspective, religion has precious little to offer. But there are predictions that come from religion and they can and should be put to the test.
 
When I was a missionary in Central America the current apologist account for the Book of Mormon favored that region of the world: It happened in Mesoamerica! I thought that if this was the setting of the story, then the most ineluctable physical evidence would be from all the earthquakes, volcanoes, cities engulfed by the sea when Jesus was crucified: the claims of the Book of Mormon are huge and such evidence would certainly still be around. So I made it a point whenever I went to a museum or had access to objective information about geology of the region to notice if there was some blip of activity around the time of Jesus. My finding: nothing. The Book of Mormon account was not corroborated.
 
I personally think that such lack of expected evidence is important to note. I can't get God to pose for an MRI, but I can measure probabilities, ratings, correlations, and all sorts of indirect evidence that He (She, It, They) is as claimed. They're fine questions to ask. It's also telling that the only time the God hypothesis is not rejected is when we change "yes/no" into "yes/yes." What are the conditions that allow the God hypothesis to remain viable? Well, that is pretty informative.
 
One other thought: an also pertinent question to ask is what logic and science have to say about religion and its claims. One of my favorite quotes ever was when JBS Haldane was asked what his study of biology could teach us about the nature of the Creator. Although the response probably was honed over the years, he reportedly answered, "An inordinate fondness for beetles."


   


Posted: 07 April 2016 03:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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eventhorizon,
 
I love your post!!!
 
It was this question, 10 years ago, that broke the spell and began my journey that freed me from the prison of religion. My answer to the question is found in my 'signature line'.
 
I really like how Richard Dawkins frames the scale (1-7) from theism to atheism. 1 = absolute belief in a supreme being and 7 = absolute athiesm. I rate myself a 6 on this scale and lose no sleep over it.
 
I am at peace with my moral compass, and in the event a god does exist, it would take a 'pure evil' act by that god to turn me away from her/his presence.
 
In the meantime I will not trouble myself to prove or disprove god. My mission is to live a fulfilling life---and life has become so much more fulfilling since the shackles of the Mormon Church have been removed.   
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Posted: 01 April 2016 09:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
eventhorizon
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Hi.  I'm new.  I don't know if I belong here.  I actually don't know where I belong.
 
I'm not even sure where to start.
 
Haha.  I just deleted three soul-wracking paragraphs.  This is harder than I thought it would be.
 
I'm a 55 year-old male living in Davis County, Utah.  I was raised in the LDS church and have been an active member all my life.  I went to BYU, served a mission, married in the temple, worked for the church for 12 years and have served in various capacities, most recently as a stake high councilman.  I have been reading many of the threads and some of the 'exit stories' on this site and I find much that resonates with me.
 
I have no one to talk with.  I can't express my doubts--I can't even explore ideas--without upsetting people around me.  My story is evolving, it's extremely private, and it's all wrapped up in a bunch of personal trauma and drama that I really don't want to get all over everyone around me.
 
So.  Is anyone aware of any groups in the area that meet to talk (maybe in person, so I can build some trust before spilling my guts?) about the viscissitudes and trials associated with losing faith in the chu...in God?  This is something that is so close to the bone that I am reticent to share the particulars on a website and let everyone start commenting.  Please--do not take offense: I certainly intend none.  Indeed, I am grateful this site is here, that you are all willing to share, and I hope that maybe some of you may be able to guide me to a more...personal? environment.  I know that here I enjoy the benefit of anonymity, and that's valuable, but it's still a bit daunting for me to just post all my ideas and doubts and questions and foibles and fears and then let everyone have at it.  Does that make sense?
 
I would like to sit down and talk and hear the perspectives of some folks who have walked this path before me.  Did they have the same kinds of meme-induced ghosts haunting them?  How did they deal with residual guilt?  How did they handle interactions with loved ones?  Were they plagued by doubt?  Were they sure of themselves throughout the process?
 
Maybe this is a fool's errand.  Now that I'm finally confronting it head on, I am learning how conditioned and weak I am.  I want to tell my story, but in a more closed environment (wuss that I am).  Anyway, if you have any comments or advice, please respond here, or preferably, send it to my email account: 1262c137w@gmail.com
 
Thank you.


   


Posted: 01 April 2016 10:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
Bruce A Holt
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Welcome! You are in one of many "right places". This one is a very friendly AND helpful one, IMOHO! Feel comfortable.
 
I was just excommunicated for apostate behavior night before last. All the feelings you have are still fresh in me. I'd consider it a privilege to discuss whatever topics and feelings you wish.
 
I'm an open book! 
 
I'll e-mail this same to your e-mail address. Again, welcome!
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Posted: 01 April 2016 10:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Posted: 01 April 2016 11:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Eventhorizon, I hope you find what you need through the emails that are being sent. But I'd like to invite you to still keep coming around here. We'd love to hear your story in the increments and timing that suit you. There is so much at stake: we get it.
 
In the meantime, one way of connecting is to not share much of your story but simply participate in discussions. We'd welcome your input and perspective, even if some of it is not out in the open.
 
Welcome to Postmormon! 
 
Edited to add: I love your name. Although you might be at a point of no return, I truly believe that you'll find life on the other side is not a black hole. The ride can be horrible and frightening, but for most of us life itself becomes more rewarding and less darkened by pain.


   


Posted: 01 April 2016 03:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Hi Eventhorizon! We are similar in age but you out ranked me as a high counselor. hahaha My train derailed after 4 years in a bishopric. The first few years sucked big time!!! I was stuck in a church is true but the stake president is an asshatand the bishop could sing do what is right but he could not do what was right since he was outranked by his corporate boss, the narcissist stake president. My perspective was around the ideals taught that I lived. The problem was that good people were only supportive if they operated within the mormon paradigm. My world was crap and my health took a hit due to the stress of being furiously disgusted with no relief in sight. Some of my lds tainted thoughts helped me move eventually to a position that I could give my self permission to think in a new way. What if the church is not true? What ever that means. lol. Using proper dogma we are familiar with did help. Take for example the marketing campaign the lds used in a worlds fair then became standard missionary tool, the movie called : 'Mans' Search for Happiness.' In it is a line that says, "Only If You Are Unafraid Of Truth Can You Find It." From there the trail became a path until my odyssey ended officially on Independence Day 2015. All is well now. The family deals with it and we get along wonderfully. It gets better. Welcome to Postmo!
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Posted: 01 April 2016 05:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
eventhorizon
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I am already gratified by the kind responses I have received.  Thank you for not making me feel out-of-place (something I do quite well all by my lonesome).
 
Some of you describe the journey--if journey it is to be--as being arduous and frightening and emotionally tumultuous.  It has been so far, and I'm only just now to the point of contemplating the journey.  The 'journey' being defined, of course, as a critical, no-holds-barred intellectual investigation into the premises of LDS theology--not from an apologetic perspective, but from an empirical, quantitative stance.  My gut tells me that my belief won't hold up. 
 
More deleted paragraphs.  
 
I have tried to believe. In the best of times, I think I have believed. But faith has never come easily to me, and I've always been uncomfortable relying on it--I've always felt that it's something that I've had to resort to rather than something to have confidence in.  And I've always felt guilty about begrudging its necessity rather than praising its virtue.  More than one bishop has suggested that my pride stands in the way of my faith.
 
Maybe.  
 
But as others on this site have so eloquently stated (I've been reading many of your posts), faith is highly subjective and Mormons do not have a monopoly on it.  In fact, that's a huge issue with me--one of the 4 core problems that have led me to this website.  To wit, how can we know we're right about anything, especially something as ethereal and intangible as faith?  How can I quantify conviction? How do I know I'm right and someone else is wrong?  Especially when I don't thoroughly understand their belief system? "I've received a witness, a divine confirmation" is exactly what everyone, of all faiths, testifies.  If my bishop would have been born into a good Methodist family, his faith would likely be equally firm in the tenets of that religion. And wasn't it faith in Tlaloc or Hutzilapotchli or some other god-forsaken god that inspired the Aztec jaguar priest to rip out the still beating heart from his victim's chest (with the religious fervor of the most ardent missionary)? Or, for that matter, that inspires the jihadist to detonate his suicide vest?  Faith seems to cause a lot of problems in this world and seems to me a singularly poor way for God to run his railroad.
 
Or so my logic dictates.  So my own understanding rationalizes.  Then why do I feel so guilty?  Why does the prospect of a critical evaluation of the church with the attendant possibility--even likelihood--of concluding that it's false scare the shit out of me? Fear and guilt.
 
Guilt--that's the light of Christ, that's the Spirit's way of warning me, right?  Or is that the affect of decades of indoctrination and the power of some very insidious memes? How do I know? And am I willing to bet the farm on my conclusion?  
 
Many of you appear to have decided that the church is not true.  I respect that, I think--I fear--that we may even be on the same sheet of music.  But how--HOW--did you do it?  I'm not all that concerned about what people around me will say: I'm sort of past caring.  But...how do you know? Given the profound consequences, the eternal import, how did you make your decisions?
 
Wow.  I've really rambled on here.  Sorry.  <"Sheesh, did you see the new guy's post? He doesn't know when to shut up!"> 
 
 


   


Posted: 01 April 2016 07:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Winyan
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Hi eventhorizon, and welcome! You definitely came to the right place. And you don't have to worry about rambling. It's great when people feel like sharing their doubts and fears here. We've all been thru it. You're definitely not alone.
 
You asked how we knew the church was wrong. For me, it was eventually realizing that Christ wouldn't have been involved with so much of what mormonism has been since the beginning... polygamy, exclusive practices, death oaths, multi billion dollar shopping malls, deception, false prophecies, control, money, intolerance. The list is long.
 
It got to the point where I felt I was poisoning myself by staying in it. So I left. And everything I've learned since then has confirmed that decision.
 
There is life after mormonism, and it's good.  


   


Posted: 02 April 2016 05:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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Howdy Eventhorizon,
 
Don't be afraid to share here. You will learn something new everyday. You will help and be helped.
 
I started to feel really strongly about leaving the Church when we were living in Heber City. Our Bishop did not want to help pay a portion of our Rent and pretty much told us to break our lease and find somewhere else to live. He called a lawyer from the ward and asked him and told him our business. A week later he met with my wife and told her to just leave and divorce me. ( he was not the first bishop to say that to her over the years ).  
 
I have had issues my whole life with the Church and its constant butting in Gov't laws, procedures and influincing our state officials with Fear and Reaching Out as they put it.
 
Joseph Smith and his many wives, BY and the Church throwing him under the bus with their essay about Blacks and how he was not talking as a Prophet, but as a man, when for years we were taught it was God given.  The Essays for sure are slowly going to change the History that we have all been taught. Tithing slips. And of course, "Lets go Shopping".
 
Have a great weekend of Conference Free time :)
 
Jon 
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Posted: 02 April 2016 03:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
eventhorizon
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I missed conference today.
 
I went to my shop this morning and reloaded .223 ammunition, and then I went to the range and got some target practice in during the afternoon session.  I shot well.
 
In the past, I've always watched conference (religiously, so to speak), and it always made me doubt my doubts.  And sometimes--rarely--somebody would say something in sacrament meeting or gospel doctrine that had the same affect; more often, something would come up in High Priest group that might cause a momentary resurgence of wavering and beleaguered faith.  I think there are certain phrases, concepts, and actions that reverberate with members--memes (as used by R. Dawkins), if you will, that tend to invoke a strong emotional responses.  
 
These memes are pervasive in general conference; they are designed to be impactful (by 'designed' I don't necessarily mean to imply nefarious machinations--the nature of memes is to occupy head-space, and they self-organize as often as not).  LDS memes are often propositional--loving arms are the result of repentance,  tender mercies are visible to those who earnestly seek, eternal families are for the temple-attending, etc. It occurred to me that these emotion- and, significantly, behavior-inducing memes might be part of the reason I oscillate back and forth.  The memes are subtle--insidious, even--and they light up parts of the brain that are very susceptible to emotional impetus.  So I didn't watch conference. 
 
Emotional response is what I think many members rely on to discern truth; they equate emotion with spiritual prompting.  That's how I was taught; if not overtly, then by the example of people crying when sharing testimony, etc.  Joseph Smith denied inspiration as emotion and instead described it as a 'flood of pure knowledge flowing into you,' but I have never witnessed or experienced anything like that.
 
Emotion seems a horrible way to ascertain veracity; it can be and frequently is manipulated to to control perceptions and behavior (I know: I used to be in military intelligence and am uncomfortably familiar with interrogation techniques, psyops, counter intelligence, etc.).  It is horrendously undependable.  
 
But emotion seems to be the mechanism (or a key part thereof) by which most people claim to know truth.  At least in the church.
 
Which leads me to another of my serious problems with the church, and epistemology in general:  how can anyone know anything for sure?  We're creatures of our minds and emotions, and they're products of complex chemical reactions governed by a host of internal and external stimuli (only a small portion of which we're even aware)--social bonding, familial expectations, upbringing, emotional security in the face of death, acceptance, sex, power, illness and separation, desire for protection from malignant forces, the desire for a pre-approved moral code--all these things conspire to shape perception. Belief is but one manifestation of a host of things that I'm not so sure we have much control over.  
 
Peyote, ayahuasca and psilocybin mushrooms all induce states of religious ecstasy; psychotic episodes alter our senses; hormonal imbalances and neurochemical processes shape and form our perceptions of reality. What then of the dogma that insists  that our spirit inhabits our body and is the homunculus-like portion of us that makes all the decisions, and whereon all accountability devolves?  Given the wet interface of a brain governed by chemistry and electricity, how accountable can our 'spirits' be when our perceptions and senses can be and are affected by an "undigested bit of beef, a blot of mustard, a crumb of cheese, a fragment of underdone potato"???
 
This has always vexed me.  My biology has a PROFOUND effect on who I am, what I like, my strengths and weakness, my habits and dispositions.  Biology, dammit.  Dopamine, serotonin, oxytocin, testosterone, peptides and purines.  When degenerative disease or traumatic brain injury fundamentally and unalterably changes someone's personality, aren't we left to wonder exactly who is driving?  Where is the spirit if my brain amounts to the sum total of who I am?
 
If last night's meat-fest at Rodizio's grill leaves my testosterone levels uncharacteristically high and I take a swing at the jerk who stole my parking place as a result, am I as accountable as I would have been had my testosterone levels been normal?
 
Sheeze, so does that mean we're machines?  Just skin-bags full of blood, gas and goo? Or does God take all that into account when invoking the calculus of divine judgement? Surely, if there is a God and he does factor all that in, it must be way beyond the ken of man to indulge in any kind of judgement at all.
 
I know I'm rambling on here.  I'm sorry.  I think this is therapeutic for me to write it all down.  It's been struggling to get out for a long time; maybe this is cathartic; maybe expressing myself this way will help me inspect my ideas more objectively.
 
I work myself into quite a state when I write about this stuff.  I don't know how coherent I am. Thoughts? Ideas? Comments?


   


Posted: 02 April 2016 05:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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Winyan:
Hi eventhorizon, and welcome! You definitely came to the right place. And you don't have to worry about rambling. It's great when people feel like sharing their doubts and fears here. We've all been thru it. You're definitely not alone.
 
You asked how we knew the church was wrong. For me, it was eventually realizing that Christ wouldn't have been involved with so much of what mormonism has been since the beginning... polygamy, exclusive practices, death oaths, multi billion dollar shopping malls, deception, false prophecies, control, money, intolerance. The list is long.
 
It got to the point where I felt I was poisoning myself by staying in it. So I left. And everything I've learned since then has confirmed that decision.
 
There is life after mormonism, and it's good.  
 
Winyan's statement reminded me of something.
 
When Jesus came along, he called the scribes and pharisees "hypocrites". Why? Because they had taken the law of Moses and transmogrified it into something so complex that even the most ardent believer didn't know what to follow. They had turned the law into a giant onion - layer upon layer of laws, rules, regulations, observances and rituals, each layer to keep the people from running afoul of the previous layer. Laws to protect other laws from being broken, ad infinitum. Jesus put an end to this, consolidating everything into two simple commandments: Love God, and love one another. He even said that upon these two new commandments hung all the law and the prophets. He took over 600 rules and reduced them to 2.
 
Guess what? The LDS church has over 600 rules and commandments. Some are not necessarily observed currently, but when a prophet or apostle speaks in conference, we are to accept it as scripture, no? (at least until the next prophet says something different...) Some of the rules are asinine, like 1 pair of earrings or not wearing flip-flops to church, and some are foundational, like the Word of Wisdom. But they are all things which, at one time or another, members have had to (or been encouraged to) follow.
 
Check out this website: http://www.afterallwecando.com
 
Honestly, I think if Jesus showed up tomorrow, he would similarly brand the LDS braintrust as "hypocrites. And the members are, for the most part, mindless followers, automatons if you will. I believe that if at General Conference the prophet told everybody that from now on they were to crap in an orange bucket instead of the toilet, and that it was God's will, and if the brethren endorsed this decree in their talks, every Home Depot in the Salt Lake Valley would sell out of orange buckets the very next day.
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You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler


   


Posted: 02 April 2016 06:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
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Hi Eventhorizon!
 
You can trust the real people on here.  The mormon church has hurt my family and I so much.  Here are some of the personal things I have shared...because people need to know just how dangerous this cult is!
 
Mormonism's influence has caused four people in my family to die premature deaths.  Two from "toxic guilt syndrome"--grown men.  One from neglect as we struggled to serve and feed the beast.  One from a "death" blessing" and how my TBM family reacted to that. 
 
There are two more family members at risk of dying premature deaths.  One is almost immediate.  His Jewish father (turned out to be a doctor) was not good enough to be in my half-brother's life to protect him as the father was not mormon. 
 
Another is a neice who has severe epilepsy.  She is inactive and lives on $700 a month for a family of four.  The children are almost grown and have signs of health problems--probably from a poor diet.  My TBM family give (collectively) around $30,000 a year to the morg--yet they have had no money all these years to help her.  
 
My mother was sold the "exaltation for sex with the young" story that was authored by Joseph Smith.  It works today, on a trusting parent as well as it did in the days when Joseph Smith and Brigham Young used it on trusting parents to gain access to they bodies of their young daughters for sex.  If a mother can be convinced god needed it to happen once, there is a chance she can be convinced that god needs it to happen again.  Sick and the rotton-to-the-core church leaders still do not stand against Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and other leaders having done this--so the abuse goes on--especially in the FLDS, who are the TRUE restored gospel.  
 
So...I doubt anything you can share will surprise us.  The mormon church is a beast--a soul-eating machine, which has no heart.
 
Share only what you feel good about as you feel you want to do so.  There are good people here.  I have been here a long time.
 
You are now one of millions who have suffered and are standing up to speak out.  They cannot shut us up.  Our ranks grow daily.  
 
Thank you for joining us!  
 
 
 
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 02 April 2016 07:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
Tavius99
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That was powerful.  
 


   


Posted: 02 April 2016 08:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
Free2Live
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Tavius:
That was powerful.  
 
 
 Amen! hugs SF&T.
 
Hey cult - I want my money back. 
 
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One is as committed into testimony as much as they pay into the belief in dollars, time, talent and energy. Afterall, it has to be true once you have signed the lifetime subscription and you have a track record to defend.


   


Posted: 03 April 2016 09:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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MishMagnet
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I think the scariest part of the process of leaving the church is the walls crumbling.  With the walls there we were safe within.  We didn't need to make any deicions.  All, pretty much, was decided by the church.  The Mormon school of thought was quite rigid.  We saw things through the church glasses.  All around us operated through the church, even if people didn't know they were playing a part in it. 
 
When one can suddenly put their hand through the wall, when the walls start to look transparent, when a portion cracks and crumbles - it feels very uncomfortable.   There is nothing comfortable about it.
 
I was not happy within the confines of the church.  I was a deeply depressed child and adolescent.  By the time I graduated high school I had been hospitalized for depression and an eating disorder (the hallmark of the sensitive oldest child who wants to please and cant manage their own feelings.)  
 
And so - for me personally I wasn't having to leave something that had made me happy and brought me peace.  I was having to leave something that was killing me.  And in a way that was great.  A year after I left the church I had a day where I was driving through the country side with the bluest skies and the happiest feeling I'd ever had in my life to that point.  
 
But of course in another way that was not great because ever since that moment I have had to live with the knowledge that I have hurt my parents more than anything else I could have done to them.  I'm an outsider now to my tribe.  I'm that relative at the family reunion you can't say certain things around.  I'm the topic of family discussion, myself and my nevermo husband and children.
 
And - to play on the existential like you were saying - is my plight any different than a cradle Catholic who joins the Mormon Church and hurts their family in the process?  No.  It is exactly the same thing.  Only one is lauded as courageous within the church and the other is the worst thing you can ever do. 
 
Take your time.  Don't speak before you are ready.  There is no rush.  There is no plan, no guidebook for leaving the church.  The freedom is both terrifying and wonderful.   
 
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I don’t want to ruin the ending for you ...... but it’s all going to be okay.


   


Posted: 03 April 2016 11:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
Felix
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Welcome eventhorizon,  Here we welcome and celebrate freedom of thought. I hope we can even welcome those whose thoughts don't agree with our own without resorting to disrespectful discourse.
 
Unlike the counsel offered by D. F. Uchtdorf to "doubt our doubts" we encourage people to question their doubts. I can't think of a better way to find the truth of a matter. If we only examine pro or favorable info the conclusion will be built on an unballanced evaluation.
 
Here we are allowed to question our doubts. I take license to do so from the wise counsel of a former Apostle, Apostle Hugh B. Brown.
 
"Neither fear of consequence or any kind of coercion should ever be used to secure uniformity of thought in the church. People should express their problems and opinions and be unafraid to think without fear of ill consequences...we must preserve freedom of mind in the church and resist all efforts to suppress it." Hugh B. Brown
 
"I admire men and women who have developed the questioning spirit, who are unafraid of new ideas as stepping stones to progress. We should, of course, respect the opinions of others, but we should also be unafraid to dissent - if we are informed. Thoughts and expressions compete in the marketplace of thought, and in that competition truth emerges triumphant. Only error fears freedom of expression." Hugh B. Brown
 
and one more; "There are altogether too many people in the world who are willing to accept as true whatever is printed in a book or delivered from a pulpit." Hugh B. Brown 
 
Truth, or finding it, demands that we place our current opinions and beliefs (or desire to belive a thing) on the alter of honest inquiry. 
 
I believe that the truth matters and finding it requires that we follow certain principles as we sift through information.
 
I retain some of the good principles I picked up in my years in the church such as the teaching "men should be anxiously engaged in a good cause" "moderation in all things" and many many more true and inspiring ideas. I have thrown out the bad teachings, and there are many.
 
My experience in and out of the church has tought me much about life and I am greatful for all I have gleaned through it all. I am ready to learn new and greater things that I could not learn by remaining in the church. I have twice been told that I am a classic truth seeker and took it as a compliment.
 
Welcome to our discussion. 
 
 
 


   


Posted: 03 April 2016 03:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
eventhorizon
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I am humbled and grateful for the thoughtful responses.  Thank you all.
 
 


   


Posted: 03 April 2016 04:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
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FreeLive:
Tavius:
That was powerful.  
 
 
 Amen! hugs SF&T.
 
Hey cult - I want my money back. 
 
 Thank you Tavis99.  It is also true.  I figure I could be embarassed about what happened--like I was for most of my life--or I can talk about it and perhaps help others to understand that mormonism is a serious danger.  Anyone looking for truth and goodness and accepting of religion can be caught in the trap.  
 
Free2Live:  Hugs to you my friend   and I want my money back too!  Stupid cult!
 
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 03 April 2016 06:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
eventhorizon
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I don't feel any animosity towards the church or its leaders.  I have no axe to grind and I'm not intent on defaming it in any way.
 
Maybe that will change someday, I don't know; but I doubt it.
 
My experience with the people of the church has been positive. Most of the members I've known have been regular folks just trying to live good lives.  Imperfect, to be sure, but most of them seem to be trying.  The leaders I've dealt with--bishops and stake presidents--have been sincere and faithful.  Obviously they haven't been perfect, but I know that they've donated enormous amounts of time and energy to doing what they thought was right.  I'm sure there are some bad apples in the group--that's true of any religion, isn't it? but overall, they've been a decent group of people.  A cut above, even.
 
I feel the same way about the general leadership of the church.  I think they believe they've been chosen by God to lead the church.  I think they believe they're doing God's will.  A couple of decades ago I was employed by the church to do things that required me to meet occasionally with several apostles and a handful of seventies.  I found them to be affable, intelligent, generally humble and intent on doing what they considered to be God's work.  If nothing else, I believe that they believe that they're doing God's will.
 
It seems a little disingenuous to expect church leaders to be perfect (for what it's worth, I'm also disturbed by the adoration and hagiography surrounding them).  Don't get me wrong: I think some of them have been real asshats.  But--and this is an important but--that does absolutely nothing to prove or disprove the truthfullness of the church. That's an entirely separate issue. 
 
God (if there is a God) evidently has to work through mortals to administer ecclesiastical affairs on earth.  Regardless of the religious tradition, God has usually spoken to mortals through another mortal.  Whether it be Pope Francis, Zoroaster, Muhammad, Thomas Monson, Peter, or a shaman on the steppes of the Gobi, God / god seems to communicate with the masses through specially appointed mortals.
 
That said, mortals have volition and agency.  They have personalities, defects and hang ups. They're arrogant, stupid, gluttonous, horny, self-centered, defensive, callous and small-minded. But unless God chooses to violate mortal agency and make them perfect, mortal shortcomings must be woven into the God / mortal interactive fabric. 
 
I guess I'm suggesting that maybe church leaders, even prophets, even founding prophets, have faults.  Your bishop might have done something unconscionable; your stake president might be a foul-mouthed baby-raper.  A prophet may even have used his influence to line his pockets or screw lots of women.  But there is a long history of such behavior, and it is not exclusive to Mormonism: hand-chosen Judas betrayed Christ himself, David did the thingy with Bathsheba, Urban II unleashed 2 centuries of crusading horror, and Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines.  Leaders may even proclaim things that God doesn't agree with or intend.  If God is going to use mortals to run things (and I'm not aware of any religions run by angels), villainy will occasionally manifest itself.  I suppose if God is just, there will be a reckoning of some sort on down the trail, and in the meantime God interferes with agency just enough to keep the whole thing from coming off the rails.
 
But unless you're rejecting the Judeo-Christian God whole cloth (a very valid stance), it seems illogical to base rejection of the church based solely on the behavior of a few of its members--even leaders and prophets.  
 
NB     I just reread this and am not sure if it comes across the way I intend. I really hope I don't offend anyone--if I did, please accept my apologies in advance.
 


   


Posted: 03 April 2016 06:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
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I do not wish to offend you either eventhorizon.  I respectfully disagree that a founding prophet/prophets, who would say god told them to marry young girls, other men's wives--and have sex with them, lie over and over and over again, have people killed and preach hate such as blood atonement for apostasy, inter-racial marriage is anything about god or even about human decency.  Sorry--don't buy it.  I reject a god who would command such things.  I reject a man or woman who would say that god commanded them to do or teach such things.
 
The leaders today, who have stolen many of our lives here and many members lives-- who are unaware--are not what I could call even "good men."  They have lied to us for years, decades--almost two centuries.  Many of us would not have wanted anything to do with mormonism--had we been told what the leaders know.
 
Absolutely--there are incredibly good people in the membership.  Goodness is the bait used by this cult so it naturally attracts good people.  The goodness of the people is one thing that makes mormonism even more dangerous and more difficult to see through.
 
And yes, I happen to be one who wants nothing to do with religion of any sort. I have already thrown those religions you mention away--with no guilt and no regret. I believe that love, virtues, values are a much better alternative for me.  I will do the opposite of what mormonism teaches--I will live this life well--believing that if I do that, the next life (if there is one) will take care of itself. This certainly does not imply that you should have any of the same attitudes that I have.  You are free to find your own truth.
 
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 03 April 2016 08:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]   

   
 
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Elder OldDog
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Growing up in a cult (in the world but not of the world) all you're taught is how to be part of the cult.  When you decide that the cult is not really designed and directed by ghawd, it doesn't automatically mean that the cult doesn’t have value. 
 
Despite having become an atheist while on my mission, I decided since all I knew how to be was mormon, I'd stick with it.  If there were no ghawd, what did it matter how I lived my life?  But without a testimony, there's just no reason to put up with the drudgery that is service in the church. 
 
There is no more 'divinity' in mormonism than in the KKK.  And the temple ceremony isthe biggest farce I've ever seen people take seriously.  Since I only went three times, I actually believed that I shared my temple name, Moroni, with just one guy, whom I jauntily saluted when I left the St. George temple over 51 years ago.  There is a website that tells anyone interested what the temple names are for every day of the month.  
 
The church I walked away from doesn’t even exist anymore.  That church had as its proud motto, "The Glory of God is Intelligence".  Now the motto is Pay, Pray and Obey.  
 
Here’s a bit of news: you're too smart to be a good mormon, and what's even worse for you, you're too honest.  
 
The only thing the church is going to do from here on out is punish you.   And they use your friends and family as their instruments of vengeance.  If you can't get out with your family all on the same page, and if you live in the Morridor, the church is going to hurt you. 
 
Divorce, shunning, estrangement...  But many of us have gone through it and declared that it was worth it.  
 
There may be no ghawd, but even if there were, why on earth assume he founded the erratic and constantly shifting gospel of Joe Smith, alias "Excuse me while I pull down my pants to bless you" Smith?  The only way to survive mormonism is to refuse to think things through.  
 
 
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Posted: 03 April 2016 09:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]   

   
 
Felix
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I battled for a few years trying to hold on to or regain my faith. I continued to attend church and have scripture study with the family but the more I learned the less I believed.
 
I found that not one in fifty members knew a fraction of the full history of the church. They were too busy convincing themselves and each other that the church was true to really examine any counter evidence. After much research I concluded the church is a product of Joseph, not Jesus. I no longer believe the restoration or the foundational claims. People are inspired by and attracted to charismatic atypical individuals that possess the audacity to stand apart from the croud and make incredible claims. The word gullible comes to mind.
 
Yes, the people are good and some of the churchs programs and teachings are good and wholesome but good people some times do bad things in the name of serving God and practicing obedience to their leaders. What good people may do in the name of serving God ,even though they believe it to be right may actually do much harm to others.
 
Bishops and Stake presidents may be sincere and faithful and believe they are Gods chosen and inspired leaders but are they? Are they intellectually honest when it comes to an examination of the churchs problematic historical issues? I have found that the few that I have discussed these things with knew almost nothing about the problematic issues nor did they want to discuss them.
 
Religion may have the capacity to influence people in both good and bad ways but if it isn't the truth why allow it to have any influence over ones thinking. The question has to be - is it the truth? 
 
I personally believe religion distorts reasonable and rational thought and that its purveyors enjoy altogether too much influence. A long train of absurdities and abuses by religious figures throughout history ought to be evidence enough to convince rational thinking people to be skeptical and reluctant to give audience to anyone claiming to speak for God.
 
The only rational stance for me is agnostic and may always be so.
 
Your views and discourse are in no way offensive. We may agree on some things and not on others but I enjoy the opportunity to cary on this dialogue with you.  
 
The question still has to be - is the church true? For me, incredible claims demand incredible evidence.


   


Posted: 04 April 2016 03:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]   

   
 
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bradspencer74
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I've read this exchange with fascination, and I do hope that to whatever degree you have questions, they will be satisfied.  But just a few things I would like to add for you to consider.  I mean, you have so much going through you mind right now (and yes, I remember writing out very similar, LONG letters like you have here in my mission journal) so what are a few more thoughts added to the mix.
 
1) Something I have read from a LDS author long ago - ironically in an apologtics book attacking protestantism.  "Truth is seldom kind to error."  At the time I read this, though I was battling with what I had been taught all my life, I still wanted to believe.  I never consided what that statement would truly import.  You are struggling with doubts, questions, etc.  If you ever find that an answer to such questions seems harsh, just remember that Truth is seldom kind to error.
 
2) One of your replies speaks quite a bit about the people in the Church.  Well, I remember being taught, when it comes to members of the Church, to NEVER judge the claims of the Church based on the behavior of the members.  I, for one, do just that.  As you said, there are people who try to live good lives based on what they believe, and there are asshats.  My mother has barely spoken to me, and that only in condemnation, for the last 17 years - since my leaving the Church.  It is very painful, but I cannot blame her.  She believes that disowning me is right.  She believes that I am no longer a part of the the eternal family and, thus, no longer her son.  Despite the fact she has been indoctrinated to believe such things, I do not condemn her. OR I could think about my mission president as I watched him embezzeling Church funds for his own private use, a criminal act inside or outside the Church.  I could think of a former bishop convicted of bigamy.  I could think of Mark Hoffman.
 
A member of the Church trying to convince  me of the truthfulness of the Church would tell me not to judge the Church based on the actions of the members.  OK.  I accept that.  I will not judge the teachings of the Church based on the actions of the members.  BUT - that cuts both ways.  I will not judge the Church based on the bad member, nor will I base it on the actions of the good one.  It is not fair to discount one, while embracing the other. 
 
3) If you toss the people, out of the equasion, you are left with the claim of the Church.  Its a simple question, have they met their burden of proof?  Where is the evidence that any of them are infact factual and correct?  
 
You have spoken about faith.  Well, I remember a Church that wanted members to be able to have their calling and election made sure - to have KNOWLEDGE, not faith.  I have since found a great definition of faith -  Faith is the excuse people give for believing something when they don't have a good reason.  Faith is a horrific means to determine truth.  
 
Simply as yourself - what are your reasons for believing?  Are they good reasons?  Do they support what they claim to support?  Are they actually evidence or is it just an excuse to believe something you would never believe otherwise.  Put the claims of the Church on trial in your mind.  What is direct evidence in favor of its claim?  What is hearsay?  What is just feelings with no basis in fact?  What does the forensic evidence tell you?  Where does the evidence lead a rational mind? 
 
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Posted: 04 April 2016 04:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]   

   
 
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WinstonSmith
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eventhorizon:
I don't feel any animosity towards the church or its leaders.  I have no axe to grind and I'm not intent on defaming it in any way.
 
Maybe that will change someday, I don't know; but I doubt it.
 
My experience with the people of the church has been positive. Most of the members I've known have been regular folks just trying to live good lives.  Imperfect, to be sure, but most of them seem to be trying.  The leaders I've dealt with--bishops and stake presidents--have been sincere and faithful.  Obviously they haven't been perfect, but I know that they've donated enormous amounts of time and energy to doing what they thought was right.  I'm sure there are some bad apples in the group--that's true of any religion, isn't it? but overall, they've been a decent group of people.  A cut above, even.
 
I feel the same way about the general leadership of the church.  I think they believe they've been chosen by God to lead the church.  I think they believe they're doing God's will.  A couple of decades ago I was employed by the church to do things that required me to meet occasionally with several apostles and a handful of seventies.  I found them to be affable, intelligent, generally humble and intent on doing what they considered to be God's work.  If nothing else, I believe that they believe that they're doing God's will.
 
It seems a little disingenuous to expect church leaders to be perfect (for what it's worth, I'm also disturbed by the adoration and hagiography surrounding them).  Don't get me wrong: I think some of them have been real asshats.  But--and this is an important but--that does absolutely nothing to prove or disprove the truthfullness of the church. That's an entirely separate issue. 
 
God (if there is a God) evidently has to work through mortals to administer ecclesiastical affairs on earth.  Regardless of the religious tradition, God has usually spoken to mortals through another mortal.  Whether it be Pope Francis, Zoroaster, Muhammad, Thomas Monson, Peter, or a shaman on the steppes of the Gobi, God / god seems to communicate with the masses through specially appointed mortals.
 
That said, mortals have volition and agency.  They have personalities, defects and hang ups. They're arrogant, stupid, gluttonous, horny, self-centered, defensive, callous and small-minded. But unless God chooses to violate mortal agency and make them perfect, mortal shortcomings must be woven into the God / mortal interactive fabric. 
 
I guess I'm suggesting that maybe church leaders, even prophets, even founding prophets, have faults.  Your bishop might have done something unconscionable; your stake president might be a foul-mouthed baby-raper.  A prophet may even have used his influence to line his pockets or screw lots of women.  But there is a long history of such behavior, and it is not exclusive to Mormonism: hand-chosen Judas betrayed Christ himself, David did the thingy with Bathsheba, Urban II unleashed 2 centuries of crusading horror, and Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines.  Leaders may even proclaim things that God doesn't agree with or intend.  If God is going to use mortals to run things (and I'm not aware of any religions run by angels), villainy will occasionally manifest itself.  I suppose if God is just, there will be a reckoning of some sort on down the trail, and in the meantime God interferes with agency just enough to keep the whole thing from coming off the rails.
 
But unless you're rejecting the Judeo-Christian God whole cloth (a very valid stance), it seems illogical to base rejection of the church based solely on the behavior of a few of its members--even leaders and prophets.  
 
NB     I just reread this and am not sure if it comes across the way I intend. I really hope I don't offend anyone--if I did, please accept my apologies in advance.
 
 
Hi eventhorizon!
 
I understand in part what you are saying. In my mind I divide the church up into the big C church (church wide leadership) and the little c church (members and local leaders). For the most part I take no issue with the little c church. The average Mormon are good hard working, lovable people.
 
My transition out of Mormonism began in my struggle with the concept of god. I considered myself a secular humanist long before finished my last endowment session at the temple. After I confessed my beliefs and returned my temple recommend to the bishop, I still continued to attend church for about 3 years. I had no enmity with the church.
 
I will be the first to admit that my enmity towards the big C church has festered. Although I do not see the Mormon church, institutionally, as being different then the jehova witness, seventh day adventist, baptist, etcetera; the fact remains that the big C church exercises control over my family that drives a wedge in my familial relationships.
 
I agree that it is disingenuous to expect little c or big C church leaders to be perfect, however ingnorance or belief is not an excuse to commit attrocities. The radical islamist might kill people out of a genuine belief in their god and cause---It does not make it right nor should it be accepted.
 
Am I suppose to believe that collectively the first presidency and quorm of the twelve are unaware of the issues facing the contemporary church with regards to its history, revisionism, and suppression of truth? To borrow a word from Bruce Holt, they are "DERELICT" in their duty to the church members. To not address, openly, this from the pulpit makes them cowards. It reminds me of words attributed to Ghandi "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." --- This sums up the current big C church leadership.
 
The truama that I experience with the caluclated clandestine jabs apostles like Nelson, Oaks, Ballard and Holland knowingly take on people like me has had more profound affects on me and my family then any radical Islamic terrorist attack. In a very real way, it is an attrocity being committed against me and my family. Every time I lower my guard to give these men the benefit of the doubt, I take a blow to the head. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me." 
 
It is hard for me to keep the emnity at bay, when these imperfect men, use their platform to disseminate premeditated words that dehumanize me to my family. It is even harder when this trickles down and I am dehumanized be members of the little c church because the are parroting the words of men that set themselves up for adulation. 
 
What does it take for a person with a normal "moral compass" to committ an atrocity against another person?
 
Dehumanization of another person---and this scares the Hell out of me. 
 
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“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”  -Marcus Aurelius


   


Posted: 04 April 2016 04:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]   

   
 
eventhorizon
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A satisfying exchange and much food for thought.  I'll be digesting it for a while--thank you, Strong Free & Thankful, Elder OldDog, Felix and BradSpencer74.
 
Maybe I've been lucky with my exchanges and interactions with LDS members and leaders. Or maybe I'm gullible.  Or indoctrinated. 
 
In a way, Strong Free & Thankful, you made my point: if we accept that (a theoretical) God interacts with the human family through other humans, we have no choice but to accept that our understanding of God and his message to us will be flawed by the imperfections and weaknesses of the mouthpiece.  
 
That doesn't make sense to me.  If it is important for us to understand the will of God, to keep the commandments and to live according to divine moral codes, then wouldn't God be intent on us having a pristine copy of the rule book? Or something delivered to us by someone more than human?  An absolute standard?  A single monolithic set of instructions?  I mean, if God really cared?
 
Isn't it the multiple interpretations of divinity that has plagued religion since the beginning? Why would God do that?  Mormons would respond that it is within the agency of man to create false religions, but I reject that.  Lots of people have some sort of sense of the divine and try to articulate it--maybe that's how religions get started.  
 
And most importantly, if God really cares, why (according to LDS dogma) allow the apostasy?  Why would only a small tribe in the desert have access to the truth?  and then a little band of Mormons in modern times?  Why has only a fraction of a percent of the world's population ever been 'right'?? 
 
And why did God make it so damn hard to find the truth???  Why isn't it more obvious?? Why isn't there a way to know for sure?  Why are there so many religions?
 
So the only conclusion I can draw is to reject the existence of deity altogether.  
 
That probably wasn't apparent in my rant about not judging the church by its people.  My intent was just to suggest that IF you agree that God communicates with people through people, THEN you almost have to accept that there are going to be gross imperfections, misalignents and misunderstandings.  It's inevitable,  will be present in any religion, and is probably not a valid reason for leaving that religion.
 
I'm getting great feedback and food for thought.  Thank you all. 
 


   


Posted: 04 April 2016 05:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]   

   
 
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Not to mention the ineffectiveness of the message. 
 
2000 years of Christianity. 
 
The LDS Church claimed 15 million members yesterday (I will round up to 16 million since I can't remember the exact number.)
 
7 billion people on the Earth.
 
That means .002% of the current population has The Truth. 
 
200 years after The Truth was restored.  And not to the fault of the members either.  I think it's just a bad, ineffective product that people are trying so hard to sell to others.   
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Posted: 04 April 2016 06:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]   

   
 
eventhorizon
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MishMagnet:
Not to mention the ineffectiveness of the message. 
 
2000 years of Christianity. 
 
The LDS Church claimed 15 million members yesterday (I will round up to 16 million since I can't remember the exact number.)
 
7 billion people on the Earth.
 
That means .002% of the current population has The Truth. 
 
200 years after The Truth was restored.  And not to the fault of the members either.  I think it's just a bad, ineffective product that people are trying so hard to sell to others.   
 
 Great point, MishMagnet.  A few years ago I did a back-of-the-napkin calculation to try to calculate the historic population that had access to 'the truth' as defined by the LDS Church; in other words, the ancient Israelites to 400 BC; a little sliver of rebel Jews at the time of and a little after Jesus; the descendents of Lehi and, finally, modern Mormons.  I used data from the Population Reference Bureau and from the UN Population Council.  It was a devilishly difficult task for a number of reasons--historical demographic data vary wildly from study to study and from estimate to estimate; the church doesn't recognize populations prior to 'Adam'; some populations were not included in the data set (Lehites), and the studies referenced weren't specific enough to effectively track individual ethnicities and tribes.  
 
The exercise turned into a wild estimate, but it came out to be about two ten-thousandths of one percent of the earth's historical population since 5,000 BC (assuming an Adamic start point).
 
If the truth is so all-fired important, WHY have so few people had it throughout history??  This is one of my core issues with God.  If he exists, why hasn't he made himself more apparent?  I suspect that more religions have been born, thrived and died than currently exist on the earth today; and that more believers of gods that don't even resemble the god modern Christians worship have been born, lived and died than the number of Christian believers that have ever lived (yikes, if you didn't follow the syntax of that sentence, welcome to the club!)
 
 


   


Posted: 04 April 2016 08:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]   

   
 
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I remember as a missionary we had certain key points to emphasize (now I call them "selling points" - because that's what they were!), and one of them was the living prophets and apostles, receiving the direct word from the Lord as to how He wants His church to be run, what to tell the people, what to tell the world, and so forth. People would actually join the church based on that. Heck, my bishop joined the church because of it!
 
So how is it that in almost 150 years of the church's history they were so utterly WRONG about blacks and the priesthood? They have just recently admitted that it was merely a matter of the sentiments of the times, that many other churches treated blacks similarly, that Brigham Young was only reflecting his era in history. Now they actually disavow previous teachings which claimed the blacks were banned from receiving the priesthood because they were not valiant in the pre-existence, or that any race is inferior to any other. All this is from the church's essay on Race and the Priesthood.
 
Read the church essay here, and may I suggest reading mormonthink.com's excellent deconstruction of the essay here.
 
So... if the church has, via it's living prohpets and apostles, an open conduit to the will and word of the Lord, how could it have been so wrong about the priesthood, and for such a long period of time? If it was so out-of-touch on that matter because of the "imperfect men" running the show, how are we to trust these "imperfect men" on other matters? I mean, the race issue had several generations of LDS going to the grave believing that blacks were cursed and inferior and, if the saving ordinances of the temple are essential to everybody's salvation, several generations of black LDS were denied these ordinances, merely because of "imperfect men"? I think God can do better than that!
 
Not much of a selling point, in my book... 
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Posted: 04 April 2016 08:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]   

   
 
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eventhorizon:
I am already gratified by the kind responses I have received.  Thank you for not making me feel out-of-place (something I do quite well all by my lonesome).
 
Some of you describe the journey--if journey it is to be--as being arduous and frightening and emotionally tumultuous.  It has been so far, and I'm only just now to the point of contemplating the journey.  The 'journey' being defined, of course, as a critical, no-holds-barred intellectual investigation into the premises of LDS theology--not from an apologetic perspective, but from an empirical, quantitative stance.  My gut tells me that my belief won't hold up. 
 
More deleted paragraphs.  
 
I have tried to believe. In the best of times, I think I have believed. But faith has never come easily to me, and I've always been uncomfortable relying on it--I've always felt that it's something that I've had to resort to rather than something to have confidence in.  And I've always felt guilty about begrudging its necessity rather than praising its virtue.  More than one bishop has suggested that my pride stands in the way of my faith.
 
Maybe.  
 
But as others on this site have so eloquently stated (I've been reading many of your posts), faith is highly subjective and Mormons do not have a monopoly on it.  In fact, that's a huge issue with me--one of the 4 core problems that have led me to this website.  To wit, how can we know we're right about anything, especially something as ethereal and intangible as faith?  How can I quantify conviction? How do I know I'm right and someone else is wrong?  Especially when I don't thoroughly understand their belief system? "I've received a witness, a divine confirmation" is exactly what everyone, of all faiths, testifies.  If my bishop would have been born into a good Methodist family, his faith would likely be equally firm in the tenets of that religion. And wasn't it faith in Tlaloc or Hutzilapotchli or some other god-forsaken god that inspired the Aztec jaguar priest to rip out the still beating heart from his victim's chest (with the religious fervor of the most ardent missionary)? Or, for that matter, that inspires the jihadist to detonate his suicide vest?  Faith seems to cause a lot of problems in this world and seems to me a singularly poor way for God to run his railroad.
 
Or so my logic dictates.  So my own understanding rationalizes.  Then why do I feel so guilty?  Why does the prospect of a critical evaluation of the church with the attendant possibility--even likelihood--of concluding that it's false scare the shit out of me? Fear and guilt.
 
Guilt--that's the light of Christ, that's the Spirit's way of warning me, right?  Or is that the affect of decades of indoctrination and the power of some very insidious memes? How do I know? And am I willing to bet the farm on my conclusion?  
 
Many of you appear to have decided that the church is not true.  I respect that, I think--I fear--that we may even be on the same sheet of music.  But how--HOW--did you do it?  I'm not all that concerned about what people around me will say: I'm sort of past caring.  But...how do you know? Given the profound consequences, the eternal import, how did you make your decisions?
 
Wow.  I've really rambled on here.  Sorry.  <"Sheesh, did you see the new guy's post? He doesn't know when to shut up!"> 
 
 
 IMVHO, I believe the morg is like cerain "ethnic mothers(you notice I didn't say which ethnic mothers  --  put in the one familiar to you)" who use guilt in its many forms to control behavior.  The morg, the "greatest emotional terrorist" on the planet, uses guilt --  for not doing something/for doing something that you shouldn't have done/for not doing something better/for not being good enough/for not being perfect enough/put any damn thing there you like  -- to "emotionally manipulate" the morgbots.  Every Sunday and twice a year(from the pulpit, the 15 + penishood holders for the most part expound at the HORSESHIT seminars) the morgbots are given their "spiritual fixes" to keep them in line in their morgbot comas.  Once you've been set free, you've seen the light, you've seen behind the curtain, and you have a testamonkey that the morg is built upon the foundation of a big stinking pile of HORSESHIT  --  your escape/parole will be ......  PRICELESS!!
 


   


Posted: 04 April 2016 09:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]   

   
 
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MishMagnet:
Not to mention the ineffectiveness of the message. 
 
2000 years of Christianity. 
 
The LDS Church claimed 15 million members yesterday (I will round up to 16 million since I can't remember the exact number.)
 
7 billion people on the Earth.
 
That means .002% of the current population has The Truth. 
 
200 years after The Truth was restored.  And not to the fault of the members either.  I think it's just a bad, ineffective product that people are trying so hard to sell to others.   
 
 For me, it is like the flea on the end of the tail of a dog trying to wag the dog  --  not possible, no matter how hard the flea wags the tail!  And if the flea is not careful, the dog is going to beat the living shit out of the flea!


   


Posted: 04 April 2016 09:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]   

   
 
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Eventhorizon,
 
I Just know that the transition takes time.
just learn more what is happening in the indoctrinaded mind.  
 
There is lie protecting the truth of the lie that is the church, members fill the blanks to protect this lie because they fell good, to fell important and to fell that they are inmortals. Anything else is just bananas.
  
 
Welcome to the group!   
 
 
https://youtu.be/VUsOHsZIiA4
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Book of Mormon fraudhttp://youtu.be/T7dFkl7EaHY
Priesthood Fraudhttps://youtu.be/Oq14o3hxsRk
Mormonism-Cult mind controlhttps://youtu.be/VUsOHsZIiA4
Hitler’s ranthttps://youtu.be/9o3T112ivzE


   


Posted: 04 April 2016 10:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]   

   
 
eventhorizon
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Matter Unorganized:
I remember as a missionary we had certain key points to emphasize (now I call them "selling points" - because that's what they were!), and one of them was the living prophets and apostles, receiving the direct word from the Lord as to how He wants His church to be run, what to tell the people, what to tell the world, and so forth. People would actually join the church based on that. Heck, my bishop joined the church because of it!
 
So how is it that in almost 150 years of the church's history they were so utterly WRONG about blacks and the priesthood? They have just recently admitted that it was merely a matter of the sentiments of the times, that many other churches treated blacks similarly, that Brigham Young was only reflecting his era in history. Now they actually disavow previous teachings which claimed the blacks were banned from receiving the priesthood because they were not valiant in the pre-existence, or that any race is inferior to any other. All this is from the church's essay on Race and the Priesthood.
 
Read the church essay here, and may I suggest reading mormonthink.com's excellent deconstruction of the essay here.
 
So... if the church has, via it's living prohpets and apostles, an open conduit to the will and word of the Lord, how could it have been so wrong about the priesthood, and for such a long period of time? If it was so out-of-touch on that matter because of the "imperfect men" running the show, how are we to trust these "imperfect men" on other matters? I mean, the race issue had several generations of LDS going to the grave believing that blacks were cursed and inferior and, if the saving ordinances of the temple are essential to everybody's salvation, several generations of black LDS were denied these ordinances, merely because of "imperfect men"? I think God can do better than that!
 
Not much of a selling point, in my book... 
 
Well, yes, there's the blacks and the priesthood, polygamy, the United Order, blood atonement, the State of Deseret and a dozen or so programs that have been tried and abandoned just in my lifetime.  
 
Maybe God doesn't direct human affairs as closely as everybody seems to think and isn't all that concerned about things that we tend to get pretty worked up about.  Or maybe God doesn't exist and we're all just clinging to an old superstition.  
 


   


Posted: 04 April 2016 11:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]   

   
 
Free2Live
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When it comes down to it the deal breaker is in revelation. Is this gawd so phucked up that it can not make up it's mind? Is it so uncaring that it perfectly hurts it's children in some form or another? Even the so called prophets have hinted that it is or it is not a hoax in hopes of petting members feelings into sticking with the status quo. The hypocracy is rampant top to bottom. How can a corporation teach repentence and restitution when they threw one single dude under the mountain meadows murder bus? They have not made any attempt at rectifying that carnage. How can a cult pry into personal business with questions that include honesty with fellow men when they lie and decieve themselves?
 
The  weightier matters are in how to deal with family and a non existing social arena. People do not like facts they like feel good warm fuzzy thoughts. It is not about true testimony or not. It is about honesty and integrity. 
 
Love and spirituality are what matter and neither need an organized middleman religion. 
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Posted: 04 April 2016 11:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]   

   
 
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I was looking at the recent video "Defectors or Truth Seekers", which puts the LDS in a row with other exclusive-truth, high-control church organizations, and wish I had come across that early in my leaving-the-church process.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdTWTeTkPn0
 
Thanks to whomever made that. :)
 
re: God, I think some (many?) of us who make a break from Mormonism apply the same sort of reasoning to Christianity and other religions and find similar underlying issues with faith, evidence, and ugly-to-modern-eyes morals and history. (Nobody does global-scale genocide quite like YHWY Lord of Hosts).


   


Posted: 04 April 2016 02:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]   

   
 
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Knowing with certainty might be great, but questions also have value. I haven't experienced the certainty, but I have benefitted a great deal from my questions.
 
Slightly off topic, but I want to say how much I'm enjoying this thread. Thanks, Eventhorizon and the contributors here. I love this caliber of exchange.
 
I also love clever and clean writing and this thread has plenty of both.
 
[Wedgie shuffles back to his chair in the corner and smiles, enjoying the company and discussion of his friends. I enjoy being with you all.]


   


Posted: 04 April 2016 02:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]   

   
 
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Winyan
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I don't believe that God had anything to do with mormonism. So I don't blame Him for it. It was started by men making things up and trying to control people for their own agendas. Like most religions. He probably could have stopped it. But I dont think He micromanages life that way.
 
I also believe that He did give us instructions about what we're doing here... learning to love and take care of each other is what it boils down to. That's what Christ said, and it has been preserved over time and spread around the world. 
 
So that's basically the extent of my religious faith. The rest I don't have answers for, and that's ok. 


   


Posted: 04 April 2016 04:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]   

   
 
eventhorizon
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Argh. 
 
I think I may be opening myself up to some...retorts...with this post, but you've been respectful and friendly so far and your responses have been constructive.  I petition your ongoing forbearance.
 
Here's the thing.
 
I really like many aspects of LDS theology.  It makes sense; it resonates with me.  Yeah, I know--Star Trek resonates with me, too.  That doesn't make it true.
 
I'm a nerd.  My house looks more like a library than a home <blush>.  A portion of my books (~1,000) concern various religions and mythologies.  I've spent decades studying the world's great religious traditions--I've studied their languages, their cultures, their history and their theology.  I've traveled to their birthplaces and talked to their adherents.  I do not claim to be an expert; I don't have a degree.  I only share this so you understand that I'm not completely ignorant, either.
 
Early on I felt like I needed to understand the doctrine of other Christian sects in order to claim a right to pronounce my own particular flavor to be true.  And as I studied other Christian denominations, I really came to appreciate my own.  
 
Okay, maybe there was some bias.  As objective and open-minded and empirical as I tried to be, I recognize that there was some predisposition to prefer the religion of my childhood. I knew it then, and I acknowledge it now.
 
But, in my opinion (which is worth exactly the price that you're paying), no other Christian belief system could hold a candle to the majesty and completeness of LDS theology.  I know that is bound to make many of you scoff--maybe even bristle. Please, bear with me.
 
I know Mormonism has some wacky--even dangerous--parts.  In our more charitable moments, maybe we dealt with those parts by declaring them incomprehensible and hoping for 'further light and knowledge', down the trail.  There clearly aren't many charitable feelings remaining here now, of course, and wholesale rejection is the norm.  
 
But I feel (damned feelings) that the weft and warp of LDS theology weaves a tight, coherent and, well, a beautiful fabric.  It bestows on us a purpose; it teaches that we're embryonic gods; that our divine parents want us to be like them, no holds barred. We humans are creators--(that, in my view, is what sets us apart from other species), and the thought of eternal creations; indeed, of creating a universe is pretty appealing (at least to a megalomaniac like me).  Our destiny is not to spend the eternities worshipping and singing praises to God, but to be god--to have offspring, to love them, to give them the same wonderful opportunities that we've had.  I like the fact that Mormons encourage the pursuit of knowledge; they even extoll it as the one thing we can take with us when we die.  They proclaim intelligence to be the glory of God.  I find comfort and satisfaction in thinking that we're all brothers and sisters; that we've always known each other and that we're all in this together, to help each other along.  Part of that rings true, somehow.  I am attracted to the idea that we've always existed, that we're evolving to higher-order beings who will be defined by goodness and love.  The sense of purpose; the sense of destination; the sense of our place in the universe that such a schema bestows is enormously gratifying.
 
I can see you all shaking your heads ruefully.  Be patient.  I'm the new guy. 
 
I am aware of the evidence that suggests these ideas didn't originate with Joseph Smith. I understand that many of these ideas evolved over a period of years.  Could God maybe work that way?
 
No, probably not. 
 
The unanswered questions, the inconsistencies, the blatant...wacky and dangerous parts heretofore alluded...bring the validity of all this into question.  The lack of a coherent, universal moral code, the necessity of relying on faith--even to the point of suspending disbelief--the lack of any clear indication that Mormons got it right; fallible and errant guideposts, the sparsity of these teachings in historic populations, science's ability to explain the universe without resorting to the supernatural...all these problems conspire to extinguish my hope.  LDS theology is really the only Christian world view that holds any appeal to me; if it isn't true, I find myself having to reject the idea of God in general. 
 
<Gary looks around at his new friends who sit and stare at him blankly>
 
 Ah, shit.
 
 
 
 


   


Posted: 04 April 2016 05:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
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I remember Jeff posting a poster somewhere, which said something like, "Before you tell me the good your religion has done, first you must subtract the harm it has done."  From what I have experienced in my family and have read of other's sufferings on here and other places--the good mormonism has done is a flicker in the wind compared to the harm it has caused--which harm--looks to me like a tsunami.  And brother--Vanilla ISIS is not finished yet.
 
 
Edited to add:  The author of this poster is Daniel Dennet.  Having difficulty with the link.  Will post when I resolve it.  
 
First, don't we have to subtract all the lives lost?  Young girls raped--including the FLDS, which would not exist without Joseph Smith, Marriages gone down?  Children traumatized?  Suicides committed from "toxic guilt syndrome?  Life savings taken 10% at a time by fraud?  Days of lives stolen?  And more...
 
Seems to me--even with thousands of years of the church doing nothing but good on the earth (and don't hold your breath on that one), the church would never break even for the harm it has done.  How can you put a value on all these lives lost--all these girls raped?  You do know that ISIS has some good in it as well--right?
 
If you are a troll, my friend, you are on the losing end.  When you try to compensate for liars, murderers, child molesters, fraudsters--you might be on the wrong side of right.  Forgive me if you are just trying to figure it out but this soul-eating machine has taken far too much from me and from my friends.
 
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 04 April 2016 06:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]   

   
 
Free2Live
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No worries. I have posted before with no response. Topics that are not provable by the 5 senses are not popular by the majority here I found out. Love is what I believe to be the connective force of the universe. The Cokeville Wyoming bombers in a grade school has imense meaning but little value to atheism. Giving up religion does not mean giving up spirituality love and innate goodness. Thanks for your post thread openness.
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Posted: 04 April 2016 06:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
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FreeLive:
No worries. I have posted before with no response. Topics that are not provable by the 5 senses are not popular by the majority here I found out. Love is what I believe to be the connective force of the universe. The Cokeville Wyoming bombers in a grade school has imense meaning but little value to atheism. Giving up religion does not mean giving up spirituality love and innate goodness. Thanks for your post thread openness.
 
 I so agree with you Free2Live.  Love is the strongest power in the universe.  I believe we are in a time on the earth when religion is going down and people are seeing the dangers of its power to manipulate.  I believe "Love" is the true god--so pure--(as you have said before) it requires no worship.  Love embraces all that is good.  Love is the only thing that can unite and save this planet and it peoples and animals.  Compared to love--religion is the anti-christ--the beast--which looks like something really good at first, but when you buy in--it has control of you and you may never get out.  If religion did not have a lot of good in it, it would not be dangerous.  Goodness is its bait and  drug that can numb you to its evil.
 
Love...
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 04 April 2016 06:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]   

   
 
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Here is the quote:
 
"You don't get to advertise all the good your religion does without scupuously subtracting all the harm it does and considering serioulsy the question of whether some other religion, or no religion at all does better."
 
~Daniel Dennett
 
Quote provided--courtsy of Jeff Ricks
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 05 April 2016 01:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]   

   
 
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I think I kinda understand where you're coming from, eventhorizon.  
 
I too found a certain elegance in some of the doctrine--and to be honest, still think the spirits/Gods eternal progression idea, strange as it is once you start throwing in multiple wives and the making of spirit babies to populate worlds without end and such, STILL makes slightly more sense than general Christendom's or most other religion's views of eternity.  
 
I guess the big challenge for me, and one that you might be facing, was having NO other reliable frame of reference.  If not belief in Mormonism, then what?  If one isn't inspired to goodness by Deity, then by what?  If the world was not designed by a Great Designer as described by scripture, then how could it possibly have come about in a way that seems so perfectly precise to us?  Who the heck are we and what do our lives mean, if not what the scriptures say, if not what I always thought they meant?
 
I didn't have answers to these. I still don't have perfect, or perheps even good, answers, I suppose. I've come to grips with the fact that maybe I won't ever know absolute answers to such questions, and even have begun to consider that maybe these questions are as much or more a reflection of ourselves more than a meaningful approach to investigating an external reality.
 
But I have been able to study and research freely. And it is good indeed.  I've begun to come across things that have helped me to get a better "universal philosophy" and started to fill in some of the gaps (for example, in understanding human nature, my 'best ideas for now' come from Steven Pinker's "Blank Slate: the Modern Denial of Human Nature" -- which takes an evolutionary approach and focuses on what is common amongst all people and human cultures).
 
And I'm happy to keep learning. And I'll continue to jettison previous ideas that fall short--a willingness to do that is the first requirement of a genuine truth-seeker. But the first stepping away, that first leaving behind of childhood faith and all its absolute answers--damn, it's tough. :/


   


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Posted: 05 April 2016 03:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]   

   
 
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MishMagnet
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I honestly like the Mormon view of the afterlife. 
 
Since leaving the church I've had the most experience with the Evangelical portion of the Christian world.
 
In summary - God doesn't care if you are good or not.  All God cares about is your allegience.  As long as you pledge your allegience you are good.  Most of the population of the world will not go to Heaven.  But we are totally good with that. 
 
Pardon me for not rushing to your place of worship to get in on THIS great deal!  That sounds so awesome.  Be an asshole, only look out for yourself.  Who cares about you if I've got mine.  AND you aren't going to Heaven but I am.
 
One thing I DO like about Mormon theology is that works are necessary for salvation.  I feel like that's only fair.  I also like that even people like us go someplace nicer than Earth.  I like that you have time after death to grow and make ammends and still progress. 
 
The religious model I like the most is the Bhuddest one - everyone will get there.  Some of us may take 3 tries, some of us may need 100 tries.  The wrong you do will be returned to you - but the good will too.  We eventually all end up in a big spirit soup of enlightenment.
 
Of course - as is always the kicker - just because I like something doesn't make it true!  That's really the whole problem with religion.  You liking it or not liking it doesn't change what is the truth.  And, like you pointed out, everyone is full of confirmation bias to what they are most familiar with.  It's impossible to know till you get there (or not.)
  
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Posted: 05 April 2016 04:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]   

   
 
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bradspencer74
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I agree.  I was in the same boat as well in thinking the rather expansive, all-encompassing aspect of Mormon theology was very appealing.  I liked it (although in later years, I did wonder if all the women in my hareem would enjoy eternal pregnancy - whatever that entails.)   It appeals to our own vanity to think that we could be a "god."  It definiely appeals more than just singing and praying for trillions upon trillions of years, lol.   But, "you are a god in untero, lifts one in their pride, makes them feel very special - or has been stated here, lifts us above the "animals."  (It's always unsettling to the ego to think that you are no different from billions of other life forms that roam this planet.)
 
Mormon theology also gives the adhearent a VAST level of security.  Humans crave security, especially the security one derives from the group we can generally identify as "us."  We also feel security when we set up differences between the evil "them," the outsider, the threat from those who are not "us."  It is in our DNA, our instincts to seek the safety of the group.  We feel so much more confident when we do not have to strike out on decisions or choices alone, but to have things confirmed by others, or even moreso, not to have to think about decisions at all.  To have the alpha male or female of our tribal/familial group in our past evolution to dictate what the group of "us" does.  To have the choices to questions made for us - or in LDS terms "When the prophet speaks, the thinking is done."
 
The LDS Church once encouraged people to supposedly think for themselves, to learn and to grow in all fields of human endeavor.  But from what I see and read, no longer.  You must correlate with Salt Lake City or you are out.  Disagreement is not tolerated.  Something like the opposing views of Brigham Young and Orson Pratt would NEVER be tolerated in today's LDS Church.  The apostles were diametrically opposed on nearly every issue; yet, Orson was readmitted to the Church and to the 12 after his excommunication, while he never wavered from his views, and making them public.  Would that happen today?  
 
No, now we see the days when the Journal of Discourses, once quoted constantly and encouraged to be read, have been removed and destroyed and discreditied by Salt Lake City.  Old manuals have been encouraged to be destroyed (odd for a God who is the same yesterday, today, and forever to need to have doctrines destroyed because of their incorrectness.)  The basis of more and more teaching in the Church from the pronouncements from SLC ever 6 months.  As an outsider now, it is fascinating to see the Church turn in on itself and become more and more a cult of personality based on the 15.
 
I do not want to get into a disagreement with the folks here who still have a belief in some form of deity - we can agree to disagree on that and still be cordial and friendly to each other - as long as those persons do not attempt to enforce their religious beliefs through civil laws.  I thought that was a violation of agency to force people to conform - Satanic even.  Curious how the Church happens to do that very thing - attempt to use civil laws to enforce its doctrines on those who do not share those dogmatic beliefs .... but I digress. 
 
 
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Posted: 05 April 2016 04:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]   

   
 
Hank
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There is much in Mormon theology that I liked. Progressing into something greater than mere spirits eternally worshipping an eternal God. Being with loved ones for eternity (great selling point to an investigator). I could go on and on. There's much to like.
 
But many seem more inspired by the spiritual story of Star Wars (so very Catholic). 
 
I'm a convert. A few years into becomming a raving TBM, I started to experience cogntive dissonance, but put things on the shelf. I started to read old church published stuff and was stunned when I realized that the LDS narrative is sooooo whitewashed from real history that it barely resembled what truly happened. The thought came to mind "If they can't even tell the Carthage Jail story honestly, what else are they lying to me about?!"
 
Over the next couple of years of research I learned more church and religious history, from credible sources. If no credible source, I dismissed it. I realized that every religion in every part of the world, no matter how different from "Christianity" said the same shit. They all have testimonies that they would die for. Theirs is the one and only true religion of god.
 
At one point I put "Heavenly Father" into the role of an earthly father. If a father here on earth behaved as the heavenly one does, he would be considered a complete asswipe. He favors some kids over others. Greatly gives stuff to some kids and beats others to death and just kicks back and watches (and even encourages) his good kids to kill off his bad kids. He's not much of a husband either...he knocks up his wife and goes to the next. He's like Solomon, so many wives that if he had sex each day, it would take about 3 years to cycle through them all! He's holding all of his kids to standards that vary greatly and are all made up by other siblings. Serious favoratism. Is that the kind of dad you want? I didn't.
 
Finally, the work I do involves civil law. The standard of evidence is "preponderance of evidence" or 51% sure based on the evidence. In my experience, this works very well. There have only been a handful of people that preponderance said "guilty", but I wasn't sure. With 99%+ of them, I'm sure they committed the violation. When I applied this standard to Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and the early church, they failed miserably with almost every aspect. Preponderance of guilt was easy to show for all of those scoundrels.
 
Which leads me to this. There are some great fairy tales in Mormonism and the church, in order to grow and stay relevant, has morphed into a pretty descent organization (if you want to see the church run as taught by JS and BY, look at the FLDS church). The LDS church sure has mastered giving the appearance of a very charitable organization (questionable, but let's assume this is 100% true). They were still started on lies and deception. No matter how nice of a club they have turned into, it was started by a known con-man and perpetuated by MEN who wanted power and sex. It's ALL based on lies and the imaginations of MEN.
 
Assuming that all of todays top leadership believes this is the true church, they encourage members to stay by teaching acts of self deception and truth avoidance. They fear real church history and can't even talk about it even when they decide to address it (church essays...written by who know who and rarely/slightly mentioned by leadership).
 
My bottom line...IF there is some sort of creator/greater power/universal energy/whatever, it's hands off in nature because that's the only way to be fair to all of your kids/creations. Let them find their own way. No favoritism. No games. When people die and if they go to see "god" they will ask "So which religion was true?" God will say "Which one did I tell you was true?" Each will state their own religion and god will say "Sorry, no. I never said a thing to any of you. I was chillin' by the ocean waiting for this game to end. You chose to give up your power to other men to get comfort/answers to those questions that were unanswerable."
 
ALL religions and beliefs come from the imagination of (mostly) men, most of which are looking for money, power and/or babes.
 
Yes, I'm subtle....


   


Posted: 05 April 2016 06:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]   

   
 
eventhorizon
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Dovolente:
I think I kinda understand where you're coming from, eventhorizon.  
 
I too found a certain elegance in some of the doctrine--and to be honest, still think the spirits/Gods eternal progression idea, strange as it is once you start throwing in multiple wives and the making of spirit babies to populate worlds without end and such, STILL makes slightly more sense than general Christendom's or most other religion's views of eternity.  
 
I guess the big challenge for me, and one that you might be facing, was having NO other reliable frame of reference.  If not belief in Mormonism, then what?  If one isn't inspired to goodness by Deity, then by what?  If the world was not designed by a Great Designer as described by scripture, then how could it possibly have come about in a way that seems so perfectly precise to us?  Who the heck are we and what do our lives mean, if not what the scriptures say, if not what I always thought they meant?
 
I didn't have answers to these. I still don't have perfect, or perheps even good, answers, I suppose. I've come to grips with the fact that maybe I won't ever know absolute answers to such questions, and even have begun to consider that maybe these questions are as much or more a reflection of ourselves more than a meaningful approach to investigating an external reality.
 
But I have been able to study and research freely. And it is good indeed.  I've begun to come across things that have helped me to get a better "universal philosophy" and started to fill in some of the gaps (for example, in understanding human nature, my 'best ideas for now' come from Steven Pinker's "Blank Slate: the Modern Denial of Human Nature" -- which takes an evolutionary approach and focuses on what is common amongst all people and human cultures).
 
And I'm happy to keep learning. And I'll continue to jettison previous ideas that fall short--a willingness to do that is the first requirement of a genuine truth-seeker. But the first stepping away, that first leaving behind of childhood faith and all its absolute answers--damn, it's tough. :/
 Dovolente,
 
Thanks for your thoughtful response.  It is difficult to leave behind the surety of doctrine and dogma, especially when some of it is really appealing.
 
The other frames of reference you mentioned are in fact what seem to be the impetus of my crisis.  I, too, have read all of Pinter's books.  Pinker, Dennett, Dawkins, Hofstadter, Baxter, Gould...they helped me see that science provides a pretty cogent explanation of our existence; an explanation that doesn't require skyhooks and supernatural intervention.
 
Nevertheless, I feel moorings slip away, buttresses collapse.  It's so odd.  I can't figure out where these feelings come from.  The scientist in me is actually relieved to rely on evolution and geology and astrophysics to explain what's goin on around us.  The historian in me feels liberated at the thought of not having to come up with the lcoation of Zarahemla or explain away the many changes in church doctrine from inception to present day.  The anthropologist in me fairly rejoices at the thought of not having to deal with the silly Biblical account and not having to explain away Altamira.
 
But periodically--maybe with more regularity than I would like--I feel a sense of panic, a feeling like my foundation is no longer secure.  It's almost a foreboding, like a sense of doom.  Is it the Holy Ghost warning me?
 
I suspect that it's decades of indoctrination, but it's very real and it's pretty scary.  I envy many of you who seem so sure of yourselves.
 
I'll figure it out, I suppose.  Deo Volente. 
 


   


Posted: 05 April 2016 06:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]   

   
 
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maynardg
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Oh, I just know that I'm gonna catch it!  Yes, yes, yes and then you find out that pinocchio joeplagiarized, stole, tweaked, used his magic stone to create everything he needed to justify his power and authority and male whoring ways  --  I am the man, heed me or else.  And then you learn the truth, see the light, see behind the curtain and you know beyond a shadow of doubt and with every fiber of your being that the morg is built upon the foundation of a stinking pile of HORSESHIT and all that stuff is HORSESHIT too!  And learning that after 57 years of deception and out right lies  --  it really pisses you off.  I apologize if I'm bursting bubbles, but I'm in a bubble bursting frame of mind(I've read some pretty asinine things on FB about how wonderful the morg is from both my TBMDW+DIL  --  makes me want to puke!).  We are not going to become gods and goddesses (profits thrown under the bus), or create our own worlds, or have sex for eternity with multiple CK women to populate that world (I'm a one woman kind of guy  --  what kind of a crazy person wants multiple spouses  --  double the pleasure, double the fun  --  WTF, just give me a gun!).  All this stuff favors men  --  just another example of making women second class citizens, barefoot and pregnant for eternity (I guess there will be some women who will be happy about that because sex is really only for procreation  --  yeah, right!). 

   


Posted: 05 April 2016 08:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 46 ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
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maynardg:
Oh, I just know that I'm gonna catch it!  Yes, yes, yes and then you find out that pinocchio joeplagiarized, stole, tweaked, used his magic stone to create everything he needed to justify his power and authority and male whoring ways  --  I am the man, heed me or else.  And then you learn the truth, see the light, see behind the curtain and you know beyond a shadow of doubt and with every fiber of your being that the morg is built upon the foundation of a stinking pile of HORSESHIT and all that stuff is HORSESHIT too!  And learning that after 57 years of deception and out right lies  --  it really pisses you off.  I apologize if I'm bursting bubbles, but I'm in a bubble bursting frame of mind(I've read some pretty asinine things on FB about how wonderful the morg is from both my TBMDW+DIL  --  makes me want to puke!).  We are not going to become gods and goddesses (profits thrown under the bus), or create our own worlds, or have sex for eternity with multiple CK women to populate that world (I'm a one woman kind of guy  --  what kind of a crazy person wants multiple spouses  --  double the pleasure, double the fun  --  WTF, just give me a gun!).  All this stuff favors men  --  just another example of making women second class citizens, barefoot and pregnant for eternity (I guess there will be some women who will be happy about that because sex is really only for procreation  --  yeah, right!).
 
 
Thank you maynardg.  I'm with you.  I really don't give a damn about all the good doctrine, view of the after-life or anything that comes out of the mormon church.  It is built on lies (HS), started with lies, (HS), and the leaders today are nothing but liars and full of lies and (HS).  So...who cares about anything they say and why would anyone believe any of it?  Any truth in it--is stolen.
 
People in my family are dead--thanks to mormonism.  My children grew up without their father--thanks to mormonism.  My TBM sister--in her early forties, who used to live the good life until her husband found it was all lies--just came close to losing her teeth and had to have several pulled--from neglected dental care due to lack of money--but she pays a FULL tithing.     She has had a sad life--due to the church and she will settle for nothing but a temple marriage.  She is then set up to be broken again--as soon as the new husband finds out the truth as she has a death-grip on mormonism. 
 
I could go on and on about the damage in my family, my kin TBMs do not even see.  And yes, what they do to women is a lot like the teachings of ISIS.
 
I don't understand how anyone can care about any good--without first subtracting the damage--as Daniel Dennett says.  Why not write an essay on all the good in Warren Jeffs?  After all, he is a lot like mormonism--full of evil, lies and damage to the innocent but you had better believe those who know him could write a book on his redeeming virtues.
 
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 05 April 2016 08:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 47 ]   

   
 
eventhorizon
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I am very sorry--I definitely did not mean to offend.  I'm just trying to figure out what's what, and sometimes I write thoughts down that are probably best kept to myself.  Please--accept my apologies. 

   


Posted: 05 April 2016 09:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 48 ]   

   
 
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Winyan
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eventhorizon:
I am very sorry--I definitely did not mean to offend.  I'm just trying to figure out what's what, and sometimes I write thoughts down that are probably best kept to myself.  Please--accept my apologies.
 
 Don't worry. We're all just voicing our opinions here. You're ok. It's a journey. I hope you'll continue to share what you're experiencing.


   


Posted: 05 April 2016 12:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 49 ]   

   
 
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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eventhorizon:
Argh. 
 
I think I may be opening myself up to some...retorts...with this post, but you've been respectful and friendly so far and your responses have been constructive.  I petition your ongoing forbearance.
 
Here's the thing.
 
I really like many aspects of LDS theology.  It makes sense; it resonates with me.  Yeah, I know--Star Trek resonates with me, too.  That doesn't make it true.
 
I'm a nerd.  My house looks more like a library than a home <blush>.  A portion of my books (~1,000) concern various religions and mythologies.  I've spent decades studying the world's great religious traditions--I've studied their languages, their cultures, their history and their theology.  I've traveled to their birthplaces and talked to their adherents.  I do not claim to be an expert; I don't have a degree.  I only share this so you understand that I'm not completely ignorant, either.
 
Early on I felt like I needed to understand the doctrine of other Christian sects in order to claim a right to pronounce my own particular flavor to be true.  And as I studied other Christian denominations, I really came to appreciate my own.  
 
Okay, maybe there was some bias.  As objective and open-minded and empirical as I tried to be, I recognize that there was some predisposition to prefer the religion of my childhood. I knew it then, and I acknowledge it now.
 
But, in my opinion (which is worth exactly the price that you're paying), no other Christian belief system could hold a candle to the majesty and completeness of LDS theology.  I know that is bound to make many of you scoff--maybe even bristle. Please, bear with me.
 
I know Mormonism has some wacky--even dangerous--parts.  In our more charitable moments, maybe we dealt with those parts by declaring them incomprehensible and hoping for 'further light and knowledge', down the trail.  There clearly aren't many charitable feelings remaining here now, of course, and wholesale rejection is the norm.  
 
But I feel (damned feelings) that the weft and warp of LDS theology weaves a tight, coherent and, well, a beautiful fabric.  It bestows on us a purpose; it teaches that we're embryonic gods; that our divine parents want us to be like them, no holds barred. We humans are creators--(that, in my view, is what sets us apart from other species), and the thought of eternal creations; indeed, of creating a universe is pretty appealing (at least to a megalomaniac like me).  Our destiny is not to spend the eternities worshipping and singing praises to God, but to be god--to have offspring, to love them, to give them the same wonderful opportunities that we've had.  I like the fact that Mormons encourage the pursuit of knowledge; they even extoll it as the one thing we can take with us when we die.  They proclaim intelligence to be the glory of God.  I find comfort and satisfaction in thinking that we're all brothers and sisters; that we've always known each other and that we're all in this together, to help each other along.  Part of that rings true, somehow.  I am attracted to the idea that we've always existed, that we're evolving to higher-order beings who will be defined by goodness and love.  The sense of purpose; the sense of destination; the sense of our place in the universe that such a schema bestows is enormously gratifying.
 
I can see you all shaking your heads ruefully.  Be patient.  I'm the new guy. 
 
I am aware of the evidence that suggests these ideas didn't originate with Joseph Smith. I understand that many of these ideas evolved over a period of years.  Could God maybe work that way?
 
No, probably not. 
 
The unanswered questions, the inconsistencies, the blatant...wacky and dangerous parts heretofore alluded...bring the validity of all this into question.  The lack of a coherent, universal moral code, the necessity of relying on faith--even to the point of suspending disbelief--the lack of any clear indication that Mormons got it right; fallible and errant guideposts, the sparsity of these teachings in historic populations, science's ability to explain the universe without resorting to the supernatural...all these problems conspire to extinguish my hope.  LDS theology is really the only Christian world view that holds any appeal to me; if it isn't true, I find myself having to reject the idea of God in general. 
 
<Gary looks around at his new friends who sit and stare at him blankly>
 
 Ah, shit.
 
 
 
 
 
 Not gonna be shaking my head at you, Gary.  The things that attract you to Mormonism are the things that attracted me, once upon a time.  You've got all the time you need to figure this stuff out, and the folks here are a pretty good sounding board.  
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Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.

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Posted: 06 April 2016 08:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 50 ]   

   
 
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maynardg
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eventhorizon:
I am very sorry--I definitely did not mean to offend.  I'm just trying to figure out what's what, and sometimes I write thoughts down that are probably best kept to myself.  Please--accept my apologies.
 Not offended.  Just ranting and hope that doesn't offend others.  This site if very therapeutic because you get to vent and people respond with  --  been there/experienced that and we know exactly how you feel  --  and you know we do!).  As Shrek says  --  better out than in!
 


   


Posted: 06 April 2016 01:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 51 ]   

   
 
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eventhorizon:
<snipped a lot> 
Nevertheless, I feel moorings slip away, buttresses collapse.  It's so odd.  I can't figure out where these feelings come from.  The scientist in me is actually relieved to rely on evolution and geology and astrophysics to explain what's goin on around us.  The historian in me feels liberated at the thought of not having to come up with the lcoation of Zarahemla or explain away the many changes in church doctrine from inception to present day.  The anthropologist in me fairly rejoices at the thought of not having to deal with the silly Biblical account and not having to explain away Altamira.
 
But periodically--maybe with more regularity than I would like--I feel a sense of panic, a feeling like my foundation is no longer secure.  It's almost a foreboding, like a sense of doom.  Is it the Holy Ghost warning me?
 
I suspect that it's decades of indoctrination, but it's very real and it's pretty scary.  I envy many of you who seem so sure of yourselves.
 
I'll figure it out, I suppose.  Deo Volente. 
 
 
There is one belief that I firmly hold - that mormonism does not equip its members well for the eventuality of life outside of mormonism. I believe that this is by design. The religion is very, very insular, especially in the last 40 or so years as the screws have been constantly tightening. The mormonism of my childhood and youth was far more open to thought and opinion. Now, one must conform or be cast out.
 
When I left the church, I was bound and determined to remain true to Christianity - to the point that I doubled down on my Christan beliefs. I tried to re-read the New Testament without having my thoughts and understanding jaded by mormonism but I found it to be impossible and I soon abandoned the endeavor. 
 
You mentioned in an earlier post about the tapestry of mormonism - I found this to be true. But mormonism, at least doctrinally, has woven so many of its own threads into the tapestry of Christianity that it completely changes its appearance. As I began to unravel the mormon threads from the tapestry, I discovered that I was left with nothing more than a piece of threadbare cheesecloth, so to speak. It was unidentifiable as "Christianity". That's the point where I gave up!
 
I became an atheist, but now I consider myself to be a deist, believing in a creative force which I make no claim comprehending, but also believing that this force is non-religious, non-interventionist and does not demand worship or adoration. And the beauty of it all is that I could be 100% wrong, and I'm fine with that! The mormon church puts so much emphasis on knowing the nature of God -- why is that even necessary? The JWs put their emphasis on knowing God's name, which to me is just as absurd.
 
Giving up mormon thinking was the most liberating process of my life. 
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Posted: 06 April 2016 01:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 52 ]   

   
 
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maynardg:
eventhorizon:
I am very sorry--I definitely did not mean to offend.  I'm just trying to figure out what's what, and sometimes I write thoughts down that are probably best kept to myself.  Please--accept my apologies.
 Not offended.  Just ranting and hope that doesn't offend others.  This site if very therapeutic because you get to vent and people respond with  --  been there/experienced that and we know exactly how you feel  --  and you know we do!).  As Shrek says  --  better out than in!
 
 
 Not offended either.  Hope I did not offend anyone either.  Just angry at an organization that sells a basket of goodness (which it does not own) in order to enslave and take money from the trusting.  Impossible for me to ignore the harm they have done.  I don't think it would be healthy for me to.  We each have our own experience.
 Signature
I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 07 April 2016 02:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 53 ]   

   
 
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This whole conversation brings to mind the book "The God Virus" by Daniel Ray.
 
If you do not want to purchase the book, there are several presentations on youtube etc by Doctor Ray explaining the idea.  I think it is quite profound.  The parallels between religion of any sort and a biological virus are wildly accurate to say the least, and how religion propagates itself like a virus, using GUILT as its mechanism of communication from one host to the next. 
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The Gym is my Church.  My sweat is my prayers.  My strength is my salvation.


   


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Financial Report for 2011 to Date

 
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The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
 [Sound Thinking]
 
Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
 [Peep Stone!]
 
Native American DNA
 [Post-Mormon Mag.]



 
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October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
Starfleet

October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
alvie

Why I am a Better Mother
by aworkinprogress 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
exmoinaz

SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
owned

The Mormon Mask
by Born Free 
Las Vegas Meetup--Jazz in the Park Saturday May 10 6:30PM
onendagus

Resignation Letter to My Family
ShadowSage

Resignation Letter to My Family
ShadowSage

Guru Busters
by Flora4 
Guru Busters
by Flora4 
Resignation Letter to My Family
Hbush1987

General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
Swearing Elder



 

       
   

  

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 Introduction
 For New Visitors
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 The Best of PostMormon.org
 























    
 

Click the above icon to go to The Community Discussion Forum, which is the most active area on this website. New members are encouraged to jump in and participate in the discussions. As you do, our House Rules ask that you remain courteous and respectful of others.
  
 
 
Click the above icon to visit our World Map where you can connect with other Post-Mormons in your area. If your part of the world doesn't have a map pin, please consider starting a chapter or becoming an official PostMo' contact person for your area. To find out how, click here and follow the instructions.
  
 
 
Clicking this icon will take you to a page in our Post-Mormon Scrapbook, that lists personal accounts of people who have left Mormonism. Many new members love reading these accounts because it helps them realize that there really are others out there who understand, and can relate to their experience.
  
 
 
The Post-Mormon Community relys on donations from people like you to continue its public awareness program. Whether you can contribute $5, $5,000, or more, you are helping us reach out to others like you, but who still think they are all alone. The Post-Mormon Community is a 501(c)(3) tax exempt organization.
  
  
  


















































    
  
 


Our next project
will be announced soon.

Tax exempt status.
 



 
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(Joined in last 24 hours)
 
Total members: 10234 

   
 
Science vs. religion
by WinstonSmith
Help
by bradspencer74
Next Sunday--Lets All Take Our Shirts Off & Sit In The Sun--Instead Of--You Know
by Strong Free & Thankful
Joseph Smith and Starfleet team up
by peace out
Has anyone been watching "The Story of God" narrated by Morgan Freeman?
by former victim
A Ray of Hope
by Strong Free & Thankful
FLDS "Seed Bearer Ritual" (check out what Google has to offer on this)
by Strong Free & Thankful
2015 statistics
by Strong Free & Thankful
Youtube video about MTC/BYU brainwashing
by Starfleet
Losing friends
by Winyan
Nephi vs. Moroni
by 4thNephite
PostMormon Lecture Series- Don't Look Back For What You Couldn't Find
by Bat1st
DC (aka HCC aka "Court of Love") is tonight! Wish me luck.
by Bat1st
What else can you call it, but the GREAT MANIPULATION!
by Quartersawn
INTRODUCE YOURSELVES - TAG YOU'RE IT!
by Celestial Wedgie
My story is now over on Mormon Think
by WinstonSmith
Monday -- Let's Talk about SEX!
by maynardg
Patriarchal Blessing F-Bombs
by maynardg
I love not being Mormon but especially on days like today...What will you do?
by maynardg
I like honest and integritous general authorities
by Jon Marshall




 



  http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/home






 





2015 Conference
 "LEAVING A LEGACY"
 October 16-18
 Doubletree Suites
 SLC, Utah





















 


 
Financial Report for 2011 to Date

 
Financial Report for 2010 to Date

 
Financial Report for 2009

 
Twin Falls Newspaper Article

 
Twin Falls Billboard

 
Financial Report for 2009 to Date





 
The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
 [Sound Thinking]
 
Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
 [Peep Stone!]
 
Native American DNA
 [Post-Mormon Mag.]



 
  Coming up May 1’st 2016 - Kristyn Decker to lecture!
 [Southern Utah Pos...] 
 
 SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (4/3)
 [San Francisco Bay...] 
 
 Imprompu get-together
 [Dead Prophets Soc...] 
 
 SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (3/6)
 [San Francisco Bay...] 
 
 Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series- March 6th, 2016 Author Dave Nelson
 [Southern Utah Pos...] 
 
 Open House Meetup: 3/19/16
 [Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
 
 Train ride and picnic Meetup: 2/27/16
 [Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
 
 Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series February 7th, 2016- Joe Rawlins
 [Southern Utah Pos...] 
 
 SF Bay Area Super Bowl Party (Feb 7)
 [San Francisco Bay...] 
 
 Jan 10th, 2016-Southern Utah PostMormons will present an outstanding lecture combo
 [Southern Utah Pos...] 
 
 New Year's Eve Party
 [Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
 
 SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (1/3)
 [San Francisco Bay...] 




Book of Mormon Tories
by Chris Sexton 
Why I am a Better Mother
by antipsicótica 
 Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by Barney 
Resignation Letter to My Family
sam2

Post-mormon Roles
sam2

Post-mormon Roles
former victim

The Book of Mormon Musical comes to South Carolina!
Swearing Elder

Resignation Letter to My Family
INRETROSPECT

Resignation Letter to My Family
oneanother

Utah County CALM meetup for November
BlackSheep2

FACEBOOK INFO
Crissy

FACEBOOK INFO
Barn

October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
Starfleet

October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
alvie

Why I am a Better Mother
by aworkinprogress 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
exmoinaz

SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
owned

The Mormon Mask
by Born Free 
Las Vegas Meetup--Jazz in the Park Saturday May 10 6:30PM
onendagus

Resignation Letter to My Family
ShadowSage

Resignation Letter to My Family
ShadowSage

Guru Busters
by Flora4 
Guru Busters
by Flora4 
Resignation Letter to My Family
Hbush1987

General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
Swearing Elder



 

       
   

  

Home



Our Community






























































































































































Our Library



















Our Exit Stories
 

Member Options














     

    
 


  


 
 Introduction
 For New Visitors
 Mission Statement
 The Best of PostMormon.org
 























  
 


 
 


 
 


 
 


 
 
 


The mission of PostMormon.org is to provide and maintain systems that facilitate the growth and development of a safe and supportive community for those who leave or are considering leaving the Mormon Church.

Welcome home!











































    
  
 


Our next project
will be announced soon.

Tax exempt status.
 



 
 Logged in: 0
 Not logged in: 73
 Logged in anonymous: 0




(Joined in last 24 hours)
 
Total members: 10234 

   
 
Science vs. religion
by WinstonSmith
Help
by bradspencer74
Next Sunday--Lets All Take Our Shirts Off & Sit In The Sun--Instead Of--You Know
by Strong Free & Thankful
Joseph Smith and Starfleet team up
by peace out
Has anyone been watching "The Story of God" narrated by Morgan Freeman?
by former victim
A Ray of Hope
by Strong Free & Thankful
FLDS "Seed Bearer Ritual" (check out what Google has to offer on this)
by Strong Free & Thankful
2015 statistics
by Strong Free & Thankful
Youtube video about MTC/BYU brainwashing
by Starfleet
Losing friends
by Winyan
Nephi vs. Moroni
by 4thNephite
PostMormon Lecture Series- Don't Look Back For What You Couldn't Find
by Bat1st
DC (aka HCC aka "Court of Love") is tonight! Wish me luck.
by Bat1st
What else can you call it, but the GREAT MANIPULATION!
by Quartersawn
INTRODUCE YOURSELVES - TAG YOU'RE IT!
by Celestial Wedgie
My story is now over on Mormon Think
by WinstonSmith
Monday -- Let's Talk about SEX!
by maynardg
Patriarchal Blessing F-Bombs
by maynardg
I love not being Mormon but especially on days like today...What will you do?
by maynardg
I like honest and integritous general authorities
by Jon Marshall

 http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/home




 





2015 Conference
 "LEAVING A LEGACY"
 October 16-18
 Doubletree Suites
 SLC, Utah





















 


 
Financial Report for 2011 to Date

 
Financial Report for 2010 to Date

 
Financial Report for 2009

 
Twin Falls Newspaper Article

 
Twin Falls Billboard

 
Financial Report for 2009 to Date





 
The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
 [Sound Thinking]
 
Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
 [Peep Stone!]
 
Native American DNA
 [Post-Mormon Mag.]



 
  Coming up May 1’st 2016 - Kristyn Decker to lecture!
 [Southern Utah Pos...] 
 
 SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (4/3)
 [San Francisco Bay...] 
 
 Imprompu get-together
 [Dead Prophets Soc...] 
 
 SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (3/6)
 [San Francisco Bay...] 
 
 Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series- March 6th, 2016 Author Dave Nelson
 [Southern Utah Pos...] 
 
 Open House Meetup: 3/19/16
 [Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
 
 Train ride and picnic Meetup: 2/27/16
 [Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
 
 Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series February 7th, 2016- Joe Rawlins
 [Southern Utah Pos...] 
 
 SF Bay Area Super Bowl Party (Feb 7)
 [San Francisco Bay...] 
 
 Jan 10th, 2016-Southern Utah PostMormons will present an outstanding lecture combo
 [Southern Utah Pos...] 
 
 New Year's Eve Party
 [Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
 
 SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (1/3)
 [San Francisco Bay...] 




Book of Mormon Tories
by Chris Sexton 
Why I am a Better Mother
by antipsicótica 
 Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by Barney 
Resignation Letter to My Family
sam2

Post-mormon Roles
sam2

Post-mormon Roles
former victim

The Book of Mormon Musical comes to South Carolina!
Swearing Elder

Resignation Letter to My Family
INRETROSPECT

Resignation Letter to My Family
oneanother

Utah County CALM meetup for November
BlackSheep2

FACEBOOK INFO
Crissy

FACEBOOK INFO
Barn

October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
Starfleet

October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
alvie

Why I am a Better Mother
by aworkinprogress 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
exmoinaz

SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
owned

The Mormon Mask
by Born Free 
Las Vegas Meetup--Jazz in the Park Saturday May 10 6:30PM
onendagus

Resignation Letter to My Family
ShadowSage

Resignation Letter to My Family
ShadowSage

Guru Busters
by Flora4 
Guru Busters
by Flora4 
Resignation Letter to My Family
Hbush1987

General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
Swearing Elder



 

       
   

  

Home



Our Community






























































































































































Our Library



















Our Exit Stories
 

Member Options














     

    
 


  


 
 Introduction
 For New Visitors
 Mission Statement
 The Best of PostMormon.org
 

 Post-Mormons are members of a rapidly growing community of families and individuals who have voluntarily left Mormonism. We choose to no longer base our lives, and the lives of our children, on "truths" dictated by others. We believe that truth is freely available to any honest, diligent seeker regardless of creed, age, race or sexual orientation.

     
We have felt the butterfly’s metamorphosis. Forces that well up from within have compelled us to grow beyond the limits of Mormonism. And so we have become a loosely knit community of friends and support groups, and endeavor to help those like us who also feel the need to explore meaning, purpose and life beyond Mormonism. We celebrate the wonderful diversity of life as we experience as fully as we can our physical and cultural reality. We perceive ourselves as part of a human tapestry that is rich beyond our ability to comprehend, and wonder at this miracle. We have come to realize that there are more ways to do good, and be good, than we can number. What we once perceived as the “strait and narrow way” has broadened to include all ways that promote individual and collective well-being.
 We do not apologize for our inability to fully understand reality or the nature of our own existence. As Albert Einstein said:

"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed."

 Some ask if we are anti-Mormon. Our answer is, no, we are not. We feel we are not because we acknowledge and want to keep all the good that came into our lives through Mormonism. We feel we are not because it's not our purpose to encourage people to leave the Church. We feel we are not because many of our family and friends are Mormons and we certainly are not anti-family and friends. But as an organization, we are open about the Church's misrepresentations and the way in which its dogmatism and authoritarianism have proven detrimental to many individuals, families, and communities. As Winston Churchill once said, "Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things."
 We do not advocate another form of Mormonism or any other religion and believe that loving one's neighbor begins with giving up the claim to have special access to truth. We feel that arrogance attends the illusion of “knowing the truth” and that such arrogance leads to a narrow-minded tribalism that impedes personal growth and fosters a divided community. Some of us choose to continue their spiritual journey through traditional religious means and others of us identify ourselves as atheistic or agnostic. We respect these choices as we do those of the well-informed among our family and friends who choose to remain traditional Mormons. We feel sad for those who choose ignorance of any kind and strongly disagree with the few within Mormonism who encourage ignorance and spread misinformation.
 Life is wonderful. We are overcome by feelings of gratitude for the glimpses we occasionally have of its majesty and mystery. And we revel in the opportunity to connect with each other and those of many other walks of life in ways more satisfying than anything we had previously experienced. We would welcome the opportunity to get to know you and invite you to join in the conversation in The Community Forum on this site.
 Sincerely,


  
 


 
 


 
 


 
 


 
 
 


















































    
  
 


Our next project
will be announced soon.

Tax exempt status.
 



 
 Logged in: 0
 Not logged in: 73
 Logged in anonymous: 0




(Joined in last 24 hours)
 
Total members: 10234 

   
 
Science vs. religion
by WinstonSmith
Help
by bradspencer74
Next Sunday--Lets All Take Our Shirts Off & Sit In The Sun--Instead Of--You Know
by Strong Free & Thankful
Joseph Smith and Starfleet team up
by peace out
Has anyone been watching "The Story of God" narrated by Morgan Freeman?
by former victim
A Ray of Hope
by Strong Free & Thankful
FLDS "Seed Bearer Ritual" (check out what Google has to offer on this)
by Strong Free & Thankful
2015 statistics
by Strong Free & Thankful
Youtube video about MTC/BYU brainwashing
by Starfleet
Losing friends
by Winyan
Nephi vs. Moroni
by 4thNephite
PostMormon Lecture Series- Don't Look Back For What You Couldn't Find
by Bat1st
DC (aka HCC aka "Court of Love") is tonight! Wish me luck.
by Bat1st
What else can you call it, but the GREAT MANIPULATION!
by Quartersawn
INTRODUCE YOURSELVES - TAG YOU'RE IT!
by Celestial Wedgie
My story is now over on Mormon Think
by WinstonSmith
Monday -- Let's Talk about SEX!
by maynardg
Patriarchal Blessing F-Bombs
by maynardg
I love not being Mormon but especially on days like today...What will you do?
by maynardg
I like honest and integritous general authorities
by Jon Marshall

 http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/home