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The Christian GOD / Old Testament GOD , one and the same right? A GOD of Love ?
by smiddy 4 days ago 49 Replies latest 2 days ago   watchtower bible
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smiddy
smiddy 4 days ago

And God is the same today as he was yesterday and will be the same tomorrow.
In other words he is unchangeable.
What a bloodthirsty God he was in the Old Testament., at his command killing old men young men women and children by the sword , a two edged sword I might add in some cases.Cutting both ways.
Put yourself in that situation for a minute , either as a victim or the executioner. Can you imagine piercing some other human with a two edged sword ? especially if they were a child ? or teen ? or pregnant woman ? or an elderly man ? yet that is what GOD commanded. ....And his servants did just that.
God created the animals , in the law covenant he makes provision for their health and well being
.On the other hand he wants humans to sacrifice these same animals and bird life. In the 4000 years from Adam to Christ , he has wanted animal . bird sacrifices shedding their blood , would amount to the millions if not billions of animals slaughtered for him.
Is their any difference in the New Testament ? not really , in spite of all the " LOVE" that surrounds Jesus life he wholeheartedly endorses his Fathers wishes .
Christendoms religions cherry pick all the goody goody /lovey lovey scriptures they want but the bottom line is according to the Bible the majority of humans , man woman and child , are going to be annhillated at the great tribulaion and Armageddon
Jehovah/GOD , apparently is not content with the shed blood of Jesus , he wants billions of people to shed their blood in his name. according to the New Testament.
smiddy
 +5 / -0
Lieu
Lieu 4 days ago

We modern humans certainly aren't any better.
All ancient cultures sacrificed and warred. Nothing new from a historical point of view ....
We still war and kill people, just over natural resources and fanatical religious beliefs now. Last Century, millions of people were killed to stop tyranny ... mass bombing of Germany and Japan. Dead old, women, children, etc by allied military personnel .... good or bad thing?
 +0 / -5
cofty
cofty 4 days ago

We modern humans certainly aren't any better - Lieu
I am and so are the vast majority of humans.
The prevalence of violence has decreased massively in recent centuries. Human rights, gay rights, women's rights, the rights of the child - all these movements have transformed the experience of people in a way that was unimaginable to our ancestors.
We live in the most peaceful and prosperous time in all of human history.
 +9 / -1
rebelfighter
rebelfighter  4 days ago

Never a JW but since I left religion but still strongly believe in God. I thought a lot about religion and have to ask if God had created Religion how many would there be? Who wrote the Bible? Is that truly God's stories or are they men wanting us to believe what they want us to believe? Just imagine how many wars would have been avoided had all these religions been 1.
I truly believe God wants us to love one another and to care for each other through charity work. He created a very beautiful earth for us to take care of and enjoy.
God created all of us equal no matter our race, sex, gender preference, age we should be treat each other with love and kindness.
 +2 / -1
Lieu
Lieu 4 days ago

Tell that to the people in war torn and developing Countries, Crofty. They may not share those sentiments.
Maybe you're thinking from a US perspective?
 +2 / -1
cofty
cofty 4 days ago

He created a very beautiful earth for us to take care of and enjoy. - Rebelfighter
There are a lot of beautiful things in the world that is true.
However consider that practically every creature you have ever seen has died of predation, cold, disease, hunger or parasites. The ways that the natural world has invented to kill other living things is mind-blowing.
Most of planet earth is uninhabitable. Most of the water is unavailable. Earthquakes, volcanoes and tsunamis violently kill millions of earth's inhabitants. The sun that keeps us alive also kills thousands every year with skin cancer. A significant percentage of the plants, leaves and fruits are poisonous.
What makes you think there is a loving god who wants us to care for each other?
 +4 / -1
cofty
cofty 4 days ago

Tell that to the people in war torn and developing Countries, Crofty. They may not share those sentiments.
I agree. But you said "We modern humans certainly aren't any better.".
That could not be more wrong. Read Steven Pinker's "The Better Angels of our Nature" for the evidence that we are living in the best time in all of human history.
What century would you rather live in?
Maybe you're thinking from a US perspective?
I'm not American.
 +1 / -1
jookbeard
jookbeard 4 days ago
speak for yourself Lieu, 99.9% of the populations of this planet maybe even more really want to live quiet peaceful lives , the war mongers and the people that rule us are a very tiny percentage of the population, did you see the protests in the UK over the past few years against coalition action in the Middle East? you are talking about hundreds of thousands of people supporting peaceful action, we should be proud of that. Humans have devolved over hundreds of thousands of years to care, have empathy, to show charity,support,self sacrificing, that cant be said about the malevolent bloodthirsty,perverted deity found in those ancient books, the moral compass of humankind is one of awe and wonder.
 +3 / -0
Lieu
Lieu 4 days ago

The sun kills because humans have weakened the ozone layer. Also, some humans don't have the melanin to be hanging out in the bright sunshine all day.
Some things are introduced by humans destroying natural environments. We're destructive like locusts. Some things were introduced because humans were filthy in habits. Medieval Europe, take a bath and wash your hands or get the plague.
Mining for minerals destroys habitat and clean water sources. Humans. Do you think before the Greeks that the Sahara was a dessert? Or do you realize the water was dammed up so that one of the largest salt deposits known to man could be mined? Salt was once more precious than gold. Similar to what happened to the Nile basin.
Humans made things uninhabitable.
 +1 / -5
jookbeard
jookbeard 4 days ago
pretty ignorant stuff Lieu, do you realise how much damage a powerful volcano does to the environment/ozone layer etc?
 +1 / -0

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The Christian GOD / Old Testament GOD , one and the same right? A GOD of Love ?
by smiddy 4 days ago 49 Replies latest 2 days ago   watchtower bible
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cofty
cofty 4 days ago

Practically every creature you have ever seen has died of predation, cold, disease, hunger or parasites. This has always been true.
Most of planet earth is uninhabitable. This has always been true.
Most of the water is unavailable. This has always been true.
Earthquakes, volcanoes and tsunamis violently kill millions of earth's inhabitants. This has always been true.
Why?
 
cofty
cofty 4 days ago

Some things are introduced by humans destroying natural environments. - Lieu
If there is a loving creator why have there been five mass extinctions before humans even appeared?
At the end of the Permian period 96% of all species perished.

 +2 / -0
Lieu
Lieu 4 days ago

What most of us want and what goes on are 2 different things. It may be peaceful and prosperous where you are but the rest of the planet ... not so much. Everyone doesn't have a history of continuous warring around the globe for hundreds of years to compare a level of peacefulness with.
It's definitely a quiet time for peoples with a history of warring everywhere and all the time. It's not the history of the majority.
Crofty, if I could, I'd like the Americas before any colonists. Simple, clean, mostly quiet. No disdain for women, very minimal disease, natural food, thousands of herd animals wandering about, clean environment, no need for money, no bills, no lawyers, build a dwelling wherever. Peoples word meant something.
 +0 / -1
Lieu
Lieu 4 days ago
Dead dinosaurs are oil. Lolz
 
rebelfighter
rebelfighter  4 days ago

I tend to put things in very simple terms with that said why is everything God's fault?
Humans built cities on earthquake fault lines and near a volcano then blame God for the loss of life - God did not put those cities there.
When someone gets cancer they blame God for allowing it to happen but instead of asking the real question why did this person get cancer? It actually took 5 years for me to get the actual answer to the why I got cancer and the reason wasn't God it dated all the way back to the Civil War and they buried ammunition in an area which would allow lead to filter into our drinking water thus there was an unusually high rate of bladder cancer.
My first son died in child birth, God did not cause this to happen. When I had my records transferred to another doctor "if you take this doctor to court I will testify against him, there is plenty of evidence in your file of negligence ". I lost my son because a doctor was neglegent. God had nothing to do with it.
If you are fair skin common sense tells you to wear sunscreen and proper clothing. I am olive skin, I tan instantly, I have 1 child like me and 1 child who turns red the minute she walks outside so she wears all the sunscreen possible. Just common sense.
Do not eat poisonous plants, don't build a city next to a volcano, etc if you do - when something happens - hey folks - God did not do that you did it SO don't blame him for your stupidity.
 +2 / -4
cofty
cofty 4 days ago

rebelfighter your comments are simplistic and callous in the extreme.
Later...
 +0 / -2
jookbeard
jookbeard 4 days ago
rebefighter the 2004 Asian tsunami started at the bottom of the Indian ocean and caused death and untold suffering to people many hundreds of miles away, they didn't build or settle in areas that were susceptible to a cataclysmic event like never seen before, what a daft example you gave, the 2010 Icelandic volcano spewed its ashes over many hundreds of miles into mainland Europe and beyond FFS.
 +2 / -0
rebelfighter
rebelfighter  4 days ago

Cofty,
It is not callous at all, I am very pained and hurt when people are hurt by natural disasters and I go out of my way to lend assistance. I just get very angry when they blame God.
I have had enough pain throughout my life with an abusive mother, husband, losing my first son, having a lot of money stolen from me and having 2 children with learning disabilities who I raised on my own through college. BUT not once did I blame God, I leaned on God for support to get me through the tough times in my life and we walked and talked.
I am not callous, I will give my last dollar for a kid in need any day, I will fight a mighty fight for any bodies child. I have fought some powerful people over refusing to give kids I barely knew what they deserved.
You buddy just called the wrong person callous.
 +2 / -0
cofty
cofty 4 days ago

When someone gets cancer they blame God for allowing it to happen - rebelfighter
Atheists don't. I didn't.
However if there was a loving creator why didn't he design cells with a better fail-safe to prevent uncontrolled replication? The one we have is very unreliable.
Millions of people have died of cancer for reasons that had nothing to do with human activity.
Do not eat poisonous plants
Children are curious. How many have got sick and died in the 100,000+ year history of Homo sapiens?
SO don't blame him for your stupidity
So according to you all of the millions who have died of natural disasters are stupid are they?
Does that also apply to cancer victims and those who died of viral and bacterial infections? Are they also stupid? Is my cancer a result of my stupidity?
 +1 / -1
Pistoff
Pistoff 4 days ago

Humans imagined God; early imaginations of God were as bloodthirsty as humans were.
Generally (obviously not completely) each new generation imagines God differently (unless you embrace a view that you are given); we are seeing progressive religions embrace those they used to kill and persecute (gays, lesbians).
And of course, we have those believers who embrace the old view of god, whether the warring god of the OT, or as the peaceful sage prophet Jesus, or allah.
(The 3 Abrahamic faiths are responsible for most, if not all, of the religious inspired bloodshed.)

There is no God that men has not imagined; all you know of god has come from someone else's imagination or your own.

 

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Topic Summary
and god is the same today as he was yesterday and will be the same tomorrow.. in other words he is unchangeable.. what a bloodthirsty god he was in the old testament., at his command killing old men young men women and children by the sword , a two edged sword i might add in some cases.cutting both ways.. put yourself in that situation for a minute , either as a victim or the executioner.
can you imagine piercing some other human with a two edged sword ?
especially if they were a child ?



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Jehovah`s Witnesses an Old Testament Religion
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The Christian GOD / Old Testament GOD , one and the same right? A GOD of Love ?
by smiddy 4 days ago 49 Replies latest 2 days ago   watchtower bible
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rebelfighter
rebelfighter  4 days ago

I am saying my cancer was caused by humans who buried ammunition in the ground on a hill. This hill everytime it rained the rain water allowed lead to flow down into our drinking water supply. We did not know this. I had no clue my water was contaminated, I worked from home, I drink or did at the time lots of coffee, the government lied about the lead content. BUT, who is to blame human put ammo in ground, human decided where to place that reservoir in Washington DC, human (me) decided where to live - God did not make any of those decisions. I am not saying you personally are the cause for your cancer but us as a human race are responsible for causing a lot of these cancers. Like asbestos who knew when they developed that what the future would hold, now we know. It is like all this plastic everything come in today quite frankly it scares the hell out of me. In say 30 years we may know the truth.
 
Pistoff
Pistoff 4 days ago


I'd like the Americas before any colonists. Simple, clean, mostly quiet. No disdain for women, very minimal disease, natural food, thousands of herd animals wandering about, clean environment, no need for money, no bills, no lawyers, build a dwelling wherever. Peoples word meant something.
Really? Of course, it also had inhabitants, native people, that warred, and also, small pox, diptheria, TB, the list goes on, not to mention wild animals that kill, or maybe you would like a rifle or two, in that peaceful world?
Why pine for a past that never was?
We live in a world that is free of childhood diseases, we have relative peace (ie, no world war for 70 years), plentiful food and unprecedented access to information.
Lifespan averages increase every year, an indicator of health.

 +3 / -0
cofty
cofty 4 days ago

rebelfighter - You blamed the millions of people who have died as a result of natural disasters for their own stupidity.
This is callous in the extreme.
As far as cancer is concerned some are caused by avoidable factors. That doesn't explain the millions who die every year as a result of random cellular mutations or the millions who have died in previous millennia, or the millions who have died of parasites or bacterial and viral infections
If there is a creator he went out his way to design a world that would inevitably kill millions of his creatures.
 +2 / -0
LoveUniHateExams
LoveUniHateExams 4 days ago

Good OP.
I must admit I find it hard to reconcile Yahweh and Jesus.
Some things Jesus said, such as love, forgiveness and compassion, are helpful and can be used today, 2,000 years later. I find these things difficult to reconcile with that loonie, Yahweh, ordering people to slaughter other people - including innocent children and babies.
The Old Testament and The Quran go together well, but IMO the New Testament seems to be the odd one out (in a nice way) ...
 +1 / -0
Perry
Perry 4 days ago

I must admit I find it hard to reconcile Yahweh and Jesus.
Many things in the bible don't really come alive until a person "rightly divides" the word of truth.
When God created free moral creatures, two over-arching principles were adhered to.
1. The wages of sin is death
2. The choices made by these free moral creatures must be respected
Just a quick word on death: All the free moral creatures were made to have the ability to enjoy fellowship with their eternal creator forever. Hence, their consciousness will never cease. Free moral creatures get to choose where and in whose company they get to experience eternity.
Without violating these principles, God has penetrated the world of men and dealt with man in slightly different modes of interaction during the various dispensations.
Each dispensation, or time period ends in man's failure, God's Judgment, & a new beginning.
 +0 / -1
Island Man
Island Man 4 days ago


Do not eat poisonous plants
And how exactly did the first humans centuries ago, happening upon a plant producing delicious-looking berries determine that it was poisonous? How do they make that determination without a life being lost?
What kind of sadistic God would make plants for food and invite man to eat of them all, then make some of them poisonous? Answer that.
Theists love to point to the beautiful things in the natural world as evidence of a loving creator. But there's also lots of ugly sadisitic things in the natural world too. Theists conveniently turn a blind eye to these.

 +4 / -0
Perry
Perry 4 days ago

Theists conveniently turn a blind eye to these.
No, many don't. The fate of the earth and man are inseparably linked since Adam was to preside over the earth. When Adam chose to be cursed, the earth was cursed as well.
Christians look to the historical facts of the resurrection as opposed to death. They look to the wonders of creation and look to the time when the curse on the earth will be lifted.
Our greatest gift from God is the ability to choose. We can look at death and fallen creation; or we can choose looking toward the resurrection life of Jesus and the curse being lifted off the earth. The choice is ours. God gives us what we want. Instead of imaging ourselves as victims, we can choose to see the victory wrought at the cross.
And there shall be no more curse: but the
throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; - Rev. 22






 +1 / -1
Vidiot
Vidiot 4 days ago


smiddy - "The Christian GOD / Old Testament GOD, one and the same right?"
Not according to the Gnostics.
 
Pistoff
Pistoff 4 days ago

The God of Perry's bible is a vindictive, cruel and sadistic being.
He has allowed billions of people to be born, suffer sickness and indignities, all for the sake of what?
His "namesake", and his imaginary fight with an imaginary foe, Satan.
Religion and the Bible only makes sense when seen as constructs created by people in the past, and carried forward, as a way to explain why we are here on the face of this earth, and as a way to put meaning into our lives.
We live in an age when we can see how we reached the physical state we have, no need to invent imaginary sky persons.
We aren't born in sin, we don't need forgiveness.
We don't need saving, except from religious viewpoints like Perry's.

 +3 / -0
rebelfighter
rebelfighter  3 days ago

Cofty,
I prefer as Perry says we have choices. Also we have come a very long way in the medical community many people survive cancer today because of cancer research had my cancer occurred 20 years earlier the survival rate was far less. We still have a long way to go but we have made tremendous progress in curing some forms of cancer.
I will also point out the progress we have made in bringing babies into this world. Thirty-five years ago because I had a doctor who was not doing his job and paying close enough attention to my health, I delivered a baby who only weighed 1 1/2 lbs he did not live. Eighteen months ago I was blessed with the sweetest little granddaughter who only weighed 1 1/2 lbs. The difference was her mom was in total distress and the doctor took the baby from her nearly 3 months early and allowed the NICE finish the process. Now both my grand babies have a healthy mom and both children are doing extremely well. The Medical community has advanced a long way. All those things you listed hopefully maybe the next generation will solve.
Just look at life expectancy over the years it just keeps getting longer.
And most definitely I always look for the positive in every situation even the worst situation has got to have something positive about it. The worst situation also has a humous element somewhere to make you laugh. When you think about the negative you will become depressed which in turn can make you physically unhealthy. Always look for the good that comes out of any event or situation.
 +1 / -1

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Topic Summary
and god is the same today as he was yesterday and will be the same tomorrow.. in other words he is unchangeable.. what a bloodthirsty god he was in the old testament., at his command killing old men young men women and children by the sword , a two edged sword i might add in some cases.cutting both ways.. put yourself in that situation for a minute , either as a victim or the executioner.
can you imagine piercing some other human with a two edged sword ?
especially if they were a child ?



Related Topics
TTWSYF
What's up with the HEBREWS translation?
by TTWSYF 3 months ago
blondie
Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 11-22-2015 WT Study (God Loves us?)
by blondie 4 months ago
Wonderment
How credible are NWT's critiques?: Allin and John 8:58. (2)
by Wonderment 2 months ago
smiddy
Jehovah`s Witnesses an Old Testament Religion
by smiddy 19 days ago
Wonderment
How credible are NWT critiques? A look at Allin's evaluation of Jn 8:58.
by Wonderment 2 months ago



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The Christian GOD / Old Testament GOD , one and the same right? A GOD of Love ?
by smiddy 4 days ago 49 Replies latest 2 days ago   watchtower bible
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cofty
cofty 3 days ago

The worst situation also has a humous element somewhere to make you laugh - rebelfighter
Yes the relatives of the 250,000 killed in the Asian tsunami thought it was just hilarious!



I prefer as Perry says we have choices
They had no choice.
All those things you listed hopefully maybe the next generation will solve.
So humans have to fix god's mistakes.
Perry - your god is a moral monster.
 +2 / -0
Perry
Perry 3 days ago

The one you keep saying to yourself that doesn't exist right?
 +1 / -2
cofty
cofty 3 days ago

That's right the god of christian theism - the god of Jesus. I can prove beyond all reasonable doubt that he doesn't exist.
That doesn't change the fact that as a fictional character he is a moral monster.
Why do theists find that so hard to grasp?
 +1 / -0
Perry
Perry 3 days ago
You seem pretty upset at someone who doesn't exist.
 +2 / -2
cofty
cofty 3 days ago

That is just something that theists say to cover their embarrassment.
It's a childish ad hominem
What does get me irritated is the sort of callous platitudes we have seen in this thread. I really find theism contemptible.
 +2 / -1
Vidiot
Vidiot 3 days ago


Perry - "You seem pretty upset at someone who doesn't exist."
Actually, I think they're more annoyed with you.
 +2 / -0
rebelfighter
rebelfighter  2 days ago
I believe Crofty is also upset with what I said but being an ex elder he is mixing paragraph/topics. I had the same exact problem with the "Elder" when we were fighting and there is no point in arguing with an Elder cause they don't hear you. It is called tunnel vision.
 +0 / -1
cofty
cofty 2 days ago

but being an ex elder he is mixing paragraph/topics. - rebelfighter
Could you be any more offensive?
Try to stick to the topic and take responsibility for your own statements. You blamed victims of natural disasters such as the 250,000 who were killed in the Asian tsunami for their own deaths and said they cannot blame god for their own "stupidity". I criticised you for being callous.
Now rather than address the subject you are throwing around childish personal insults. This is depressingly common behaviour from a believer.
 
rebelfighter
rebelfighter  2 days ago

Cofty,
I went back and read your intro to the forum you left the borg on doctrine issues. I will not get into any debates with you. The reason the "Elder" could not convert me into the cult is I am:
1. Child advocate 2. Woman's advocate 3. Masonic organization (I belong to 4 of them) we raise a lot of money for many charities 4. I do not believe in Religion because I have had to many Elders and above tell BOLD faced lies!! 5. Gay activist (because it was the gay men who protected me from my mother who beat the crap out of me when I was a child) .
You totally misread what I wrote. I am not a callous person. My mother beat the crap out of me as a child because she was drunk. She became a violent Alz person it took the county sheriff and social service to talk some sense in me that I could not take care of this witch. She would attempt to beat me up and then call 911 they would arrive she told them I was the Mafia holding her hostage. All this time I was also caring for my estranged husband who's sorry butt I kicked out of my house when he never showed up at the hospital when I had cancer and the entire time I was going through chemo he was extremely verbally abusive. While my mother was in the house OH it was just a delightfull place NOT!! I just wanted to lock the 2 of them in 1 room together. Patience is a virtue to be cherished. And you call me callous.
How many kids did you df, how many families did you break up? Go back and read some of my post. I work with kids, I am a certified adult volunteer. I help kids in trouble, I do not turn my back on them.
Reread what I wrote.
There is a poem online and I really don't want your opinion on it but if you are all interested who I am. Here it is
Footprints in the Sand
As the "Elder" said
Good bye have a nice life
 
cofty
cofty 2 days ago

rebelfighter - We are not discussing how you live your personal life.
The thread is about the fact that the god of the OT is a moral monster and that he is one and the same as the god of Jesus.
You asserted that god "created a very beautiful earth for us to take care of and enjoy."
I pointed out that "practically every creature you have ever seen has died of predation, cold, disease, hunger or parasites... Most of planet earth is uninhabitable. Most of the water is unavailable. Earthquakes, volcanoes and tsunamis violently kill millions of earth's inhabitants. The sun that keeps us alive also kills thousands every year with skin cancer. A significant percentage of the plants, leaves and fruits are poisonous."
You replied by blaming humans for the harm that comes from all of these facts and asserted that the solution was - "Do not eat poisonous plants, don't build a city next to a volcano, etc if you do - when something happens - hey folks - God did not do that you did it SO don't blame him for your stupidity."
I accused you of callousness.
I have no doubt about your compassion in other areas of your life but like many theists you are guilty of the most horrible callousness whenever you are faced with a challenge to your faith. Like most christians you blame the victims.
The Asian tsunami alone proves beyond all reasonable doubt that the loving god of christian theism does not exist. If a creator god exists then he did do that .... (four posts up from bottom of page)
He is a fantasy that cannot be reconciled with reality.
Responding with personal attacks and insults is not an answer.


 

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and god is the same today as he was yesterday and will be the same tomorrow.. in other words he is unchangeable.. what a bloodthirsty god he was in the old testament., at his command killing old men young men women and children by the sword , a two edged sword i might add in some cases.cutting both ways.. put yourself in that situation for a minute , either as a victim or the executioner.
can you imagine piercing some other human with a two edged sword ?
especially if they were a child ?



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The Christian GOD / Old Testament GOD , one and the same right? A GOD of Love ?
by smiddy 4 days ago 49 Replies latest 2 days ago   watchtower bible
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rebelfighter
rebelfighter  2 days ago

I was not blaming the victims. I was saying when humans do things in the past like build cities on earthquake fault lines then an earthquake occurs people blame God for the deaths. People get cancer from asbestos, drinking water that has lead in it and blame God.
Why did God allow this to happen? What I am saying that is not right. Humans built that city, God did not build the city, did God design asbestos, did God put lead in my drinking water that caused my cancer NO. Then why everytime there is a natural disaster or someone gets sick the first reaction is why did God allow this to happen?
By the way I believe in God, but am beginning not to believe in the Bible because I feel it was written by men and is not the word of God. The God I believe in loves ALL his children equally and wants them treated equally whether they are very young, male or female.
 
cofty
cofty 2 days ago

I was not blaming the victims. I was saying when humans do things in the past like build cities on earthquake fault lines then an earthquake occurs people blame God for the deaths. - rebelfighter
Those two sentences are contradictory. You are blaming the victims for getting in the way of a tsunami that was made by god.
It is exactly like driving a truck into a crowd and blaming the victims for not getting out the way.
God is absolutely to blame for deaths from earthquakes.
How were people in the past to know where the fault lines were?
Why did god create a world that has earthquakes? It would have been trivially easy to create continental plate boundaries that did not stick.
The wave that killed 250,000 in the Asian tsunami affected thousands of miles of coastline all around the Pacific Rim. Nobody was anywhere near the fault-line that was under the Indian Ocean.
Why did god not calm the wave as it arose from beneath the ocean before it killed anybody? He is 100% to blame for every single death in that disaster.
God design asbestos, did God put lead in my drinking water that caused my cancer NO. Then why everytime there is a natural disaster or someone gets sick the first reaction is why did God allow this to happen?
I already said that some cancers are caused by avoidable factors but most are not. Cancer has been happening since the dawn of life. Why?
Why did god invent viruses?
Why did he invent parasites that eat a child's eye from the inside?
Why is it that almost every animal that has ever lived has died horribly from starvation, predation, cold, parasites or disease?
Here is my comments on the Asian tsunami from the big thread...

The Anatomy of a Tsunami
For hundreds or even thousands of years under the Indian Ocean the Indo-Australian tectonic plate had been sliding below the Eurasian plate, however the slide was not smooth. The lower plate snagged the upper one creating a "locked fault zone". Unimaginable pressure built up as the upper plate was dragged down until at 07:58 local time on 26th December 2004 it broke free lifting up billions of tons of water in a few seconds in a magnitude 9 earthquake.
As the wave rose to the surface it was less than a metre high. As it sped towards the coasts of the Pacific Rim at speeds of 800Km/h the waves grew to over 15 metres. Within hours a quarter of a million people were dead and a further two million were homeless.
God Did It
The god of Jesus created the world complete with moving and sticking tectonic plates. We know that continents have been on the move for millions of years. The omniscient god of Jesus knew about the growing pressures under the Indian Ocean during the centuries prior to the disaster. On the morning of the event he observed the Indo-Australian break free and begin to rebound. The omnipotent god of Jesus could have effortlessly dampened the rebound - he chose not to. He watched the wave of less than a metre rise to the surface. The god of Jesus who calmed the storm on Galilee could have quelled the wave and nobody would have known anything about it. No free will would have been infringed in any way. He failed to do so.
The god of Jesus knew that the wave would kill a quarter of a million people and cause suffering and harm millions more. He did nothing.
The god of Jesus did not permit the suffering of the Asian Tsunami - he caused it. He murdered them wilfully, deliberately and with malice aforethought. He made a world that was perfectly designed to kill its inhabitants and passively observed the consequences.
If a man lays landmines around a village and watches children walk across the minefield he is guilty not only of a crime of omission for failing to call a warning but of a deliberate crime of commission.
The Hypocrisy of God
My argument is not that suffering is incompatible with the existence of god. It is rather that events such as the Asian tsunami are incompatible with other things that christians claim to know about god. All attempts to explain god's actions result in a story that is internally contradictory.
Jesus claimed to have been sent to reveal the nature of his god and father. Not only does christianity claim that god is love, it defines the meaning of love, and explains the importance of love expressed as positive action in the interests of others.
I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous... Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. - Matt.5
Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? Matt.6

But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. - Luke 6
Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God. Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows. - Luke 12

Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. - Jas.1
"Love ... always protects" - 1 Cor.13
The god of Jesus is also a god who is active in the world. Millions of christians demonstrate their belief in an immanent god every day. When they thank god for their food or pray for protection for a loved one or for a new job or help with any one of a million concerns they confirm that they worship a god who acts in the real world. This is not the god of deism and yet this thread is full of examples of christians taking refuge in deism to excuse god...
It is fashionable to assert that nobody can prove god doesn't exist. This is only true as long as we leave the word god undefined. It is my opinion that natural evil proves beyond all reasonable doubt that the god of christians, the god of Jesus does not exist.

 +2 / -0
rebelfighter
rebelfighter  2 days ago

Crofty,
The earth is not perfect but science is getting better as is medicine and we or possibly the next generation will see the day that they can predict and can warn people to get out of harms way as they now do with the hurricanes.
It is very sad when natural disasters occur and we all reach out through our organizations and help as best we can to assist those in need. I have spent countless hours and donated large sums of money when these things have happened.
The Bible verses you quoted are those that I do believe in strongly.
 
cofty
cofty 2 days ago

The earth is not perfect but science is getting better
If there is a creator god then he made the earth so that it would inevitably destroy millions of its inhabitants in the most violent ways imaginable.
Why?
People have been drowned by tsunamis for thousands of years. In all that time your loving god did nothing to help.
Why?
He made viruses and parasites that have killed millions of people in excruciating agony for thousands of years.
Why?
P.S. It's Cofty not Crofty
 
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 2 days ago

This has been an interesting thread...but getting back to the original opening post:
If the God of the bible is to be taken strictly according to the way he is portrayed in the various accounts, then he is obviously OK with violent acts, as long as they are done "for the right reasons"... such as killing children just because they happened to be born to parents from nations who "didn't worship Yahweh"
Also, he is OK with immoral and repulsive acts...such as Lot having incestuous relations with his own daughters!
The bible tells us that "God is the same for all time"...well, that sounds like he is a little odd right? I mean, even his "Human creation" who are supposed to be a reflection of his character find such accounts disgusting.....
 
rebelfighter
rebelfighter  2 days ago

Stuckinarut2,
I agree with you. I do not believe in that part of the Bible. We should love all the children they are our future. All this hatred in the Bible toward children is just ugly. I am sure that is not God'said words.
 
cofty
cofty 2 days ago

I am sure that is not God'said words
Why?
The natural world speaks clearly of a moral monster.
We should love all the children they are our future
So why did your god create parasites that eat children's eyes from the inside?
 
rebelfighter
rebelfighter  2 days ago

Cofty,
I sincerely apology for the extra letter in your name, I suffer from extreme migraines and if spell check does not correct it I am out of luck.
Who said God was perfect?
Did he create every person perfect? We are all individuals thankfully.
They are trying to find cures for viruses. What caused the virus in the first place?
 
cofty
cofty 2 days ago

Who said God was perfect?
Every christian who ever lived.
Also Jesus - "you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." Matt.5:48
Do you knowingly worship a buffoon?
He created a world that destroys millions of its inhabitants. He made viruses and parasites.
That is more than an imperfection. That is criminal negligence at best.
 
Heaven
Heaven 2 days ago


rebelfighter said: did God design asbestos
If you believe in God and that he is the Grand Creator of all things, then the answer is yes. Asbestos is a naturally occurring element. It is toxic when inhaled. Other naturally occurring toxic elements include Plutonium, Uranium, Radium, Thorium just to name a few. There are many toxic animals, reptiles, plants, fish, insects, arachnids, etc on this Earth.

If you do not believe the Bible is the word of God then you are not a Christian. So which God do you believe in now?

 +2 / -0

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Topic Summary
and god is the same today as he was yesterday and will be the same tomorrow.. in other words he is unchangeable.. what a bloodthirsty god he was in the old testament., at his command killing old men young men women and children by the sword , a two edged sword i might add in some cases.cutting both ways.. put yourself in that situation for a minute , either as a victim or the executioner.
can you imagine piercing some other human with a two edged sword ?
especially if they were a child ?



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JW Memorial = Black mass
by pleaseresearch 4 days ago 8 Replies latest 3 days ago   watchtower bible
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pleaseresearch
pleaseresearch 4 days ago

I've heard this before that what JWs do is the same as a black mass. Could someone give me a link, book or evidence to support this please.
 +1 / -0
Damascus
Damascus 4 days ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Mass

 
pleaseresearch
pleaseresearch 3 days ago
Thanks for that. I've just read it but can't see how the JW are copying a black mass.
 
Doug Mason
Doug Mason 3 days ago

Although we read the Gospels before reaching the writings of Paul, the reality is that Paul wrote his 7 letters at least 10 years before the earliest Gospel, by "Mark" (who was not a disciple). Why is this important in the context of the "memorial"?
Because it is Paul who first wrote that Jesus said "this is my blood, drink it". Paul was not there. Paul was estranged from the community at Jerusalem, keeping away from them for 3 years, and then only having short private meetings. Paul explicitly states that he did not receive information from any man, only directly from Jesus Christ.
Where did Paul find out that Jesus said these words? He received them in a visionary contact with the dead and resurrected Jesus. The later writers simply copied Paul. That's the reason the words are so similar. Paul got the words while he was on a "high", in an other-worldly state.

And would a Jew really say "drink my blood"? Did Jesus say he was going to drink his blood with his disciples when they are in the kingdom?
Black Mass. White Mass. Red Mass. Green Mass.
It's all the same - it all came from one man's imagination.
Doug

 +3 / -0
mana11
mana11 3 days ago

The Black Mass starts on the same day that the memorial was held this year and lasts a week, since the actual memorial date should be about 22nd April 2016, one could therefore ask why did they hold the memorial this year on that particular date. Black Mass or are they simply now celebrating the Pagan Easter tradition?, who can really say?.

The GB give no explanation for these changes. Many believe the organization to be aligned with the occult.
The denial of Christs Blood at the memorial observance certainly is worthy consideration in this regard.

It was amazing this year to finally get documented proof that C.T Russel was a Commander of the Knight’s Of The Maccabees, part of the Rosicrucians order ?

http://www.jehovahs-witness.org/vintage-freemason-compilation-collinsworth-family-album-charles-t-russel-freemason-commander/

. Anything is possible with this cult.

 +3 / -0
Absolutesbeginners
Absolutesbeginners 3 days ago

YES its a Black Mass .
Quite funny ....
If Jesus was back he would laught a lot i guess ...looking that ....
I think Jw people would think " this guy is mentally ill " he drank all the wine at the "black mass " !!
"Sister Jw was upset with his long hair , his smell and his twelve drunks friends !!"
I dont even know if this guy really existed ... ( i wasnt born ) but if yes i think he was ok . funny .
wearing a nice shirt " GOD IS DEAD " on the back, and changing water into WINE !! My best friend ever !!
Coome Back !!!!!!!!!

 +1 / -0
Damascus
Damascus 3 days ago
The essence of the black mass is that they pass around the bread and wine and do not partake of it. They do so to show that they reject Jesus' sacrifice. Only Satanists and JW's do this
 +6 / -0
freeman
freeman 3 days ago

The JW Memorial is indeed very much a Black Mass in the sense of it is a mocking of the the Lords Evening Meal or as Catholics call it a Mass.
Just think about how mocking it is:
Everyone is invited.
Everyone touches the tray with the emblems.
Everyone rejects it!
Jesus says take, eat, this is my blood, take, eat this is my body, and virtually if not literally the entire gathering reject what he is offering.
Disgusting!
Yes the JW Memorial is about as close to a Black Mass as one can get!
Freeman
 +7 / -0
SpiritualGal08
SpiritualGal08 3 days ago

I actually pulled up the above referenced black mass Wikipedia article while at this year's Memorial (see my post on what happened to me there...unbelievable).
The idea of rejecting the blood and sacrifice of Jesus never occurred to me while in the organization. It was only years after I left that I read an article about Black Mass and how it is the opposite of Mass celebrating Jesus. It got me to thinking and I began to research the Occult connection to the Watchtower. Some stories seem unbelievable and yet, other stories seem to corroborate the possibility of Watchtower involvement in shocking Occult activities. Seriously, nothing surprises me much anymore when it comes to the Watchtower. Just how far down the rabbit hole you wish to go determines what you "see". Sadly, the majority of JW'S have no clue as to the history of their organization and when you try to share something with them, they respond automatically with 'new light' gibberish.
 +1 / -0

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The story of GOD.
by James Mixon 3 days ago 11 Replies latest a day ago   watchtower bible
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James Mixon
James Mixon 3 days ago

Sunday 9 p.m April 3rd. Morgan Freeman asks questions on faith., National Geographic Channel.
While posting this two sisters came to my door and encouraging me to come back things have changed
since 1975 , and then they said "you should come back to Jehovah be fore it's to late we made mistakes
in the past but things are really getting bad." LOL
 +3 / -0
Perry
Perry 3 days ago
Wish they would come to my door. I never had even one.
 +1 / -0
naazira
naazira 3 days ago

So you should return due to the fear of dying at Armageddon and not out of love for Jehovah.
 +2 / -0
cofty
cofty 3 days ago

things are really getting bad.
Pathetic!
 +1 / -0
James Mixon
James Mixon 3 days ago

The one lady ask, " were you DF"? Afterward I thought, if you walk away you are DF if you
disagree with the teaching in most cases, in their minds I must have done something terrible.
 
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 3 days ago



The one lady ask, " were you DF"? Afterward I thought, if you walk away you are DF if you
disagree with the teaching in most cases, in their minds I must have done something terrible.....James Mixon
If someone is DF`d..
What Goes Through the Average JW`s Mind?..
.

.....Image result for obsessed with sex

 +3 / -0
James Mixon
James Mixon 3 days ago

Yes "sex". That's the only reason people leave Jehovahs loving organization, they are
selfish, independent thinkers, and for some reason they believe the GB are bone heads.
 +1 / -0
James Mixon
James Mixon 2 days ago

Anyone watch the show? If so what do you think. Next Sunday 9th the series "Apocalypse"
Examining how various faith traditions consider the End of Days. It was interesting, when did
the idea of after life began ask by Freeman. In Christianity it was with Jesus, of course we knew that.
 
EdenOne
EdenOne 2 days ago

I watched it. It was interesting and well written, and I love Morgan Freeman; but for the time being, a bit shallow. I hope it digs deeper in the next few episodes.
Eden
 
Heaven
Heaven 2 days ago


James said: It was interesting, when did the idea of after life began ask by Freeman.
The Egyptians believed in an after life before Christianity was invented. The Christians have adopted and then adapted a lot of Pagan beliefs. Christmas, for example, is the Pagan holiday Yule and the celebration of the 'birth of the sun' aka the Winter Solstice. Christians changed the date slightly and called it 'the birth of the son'.
If you want to convince people of a certain faith to convert to yours, I guess you have to adopt some or maybe most to all of the other faiths' traditions. And then, when they don't convert, threaten and torture them until they do.

 

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The story of GOD.
by James Mixon 3 days ago 11 Replies latest a day ago   watchtower bible
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Cold Steel
Cold Steel a day ago

Yep...better go back before it's too late. Armageddon may come any century now and I'm sure you'd hate to miss it.
 
baker
baker a day ago
I had a NDE experience 7 years a go and I saw 2 relatives , all they did was look at me, maybe I been bad. Askd wife who were there 2 in the room. she says no one. I just closed my eyes....
 

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Topic Summary
sunday 9 p.m april 3rd.
morgan freeman asks questions on faith., national geographic channel.. while posting this two sisters came to my door and encouraging me to come back things have changed.
since 1975 , and then they said "you should come back to jehovah be fore it's to late we made mistakes.



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2016 Watchtower Cart Campaign Video!
by Atlantis 2 days ago 17 Replies latest 8 hours ago   watchtower bible
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Atlantis
Atlantis 2 days ago
2016 Watchtower Cart Campaign Video.
.
This video does not seem to be listed on jw.org, so it may not be available to rank and file JWs.
.
Organizational Accomplishments-SAIL Amsterdam
.
Between minutes 1:05--1:10 of this video, the Watchtower plainly states that they are directing people to (jw.org) No mention of directing people to God's Kingdom, or to God or even Jesus Christ.
.
Between minutes 2:45--2:52 the statement is made that the demonstrations focus primarily on promoting (jw.org) Again, no mention of God's Kingdom or Jesus Christ.
.
It is pretty clear to see that (jw.org) has taken the drivers seat and God's Kingdom and Jesus Christ have been placed in the back seat.
.
https://we.tl/eejg44ReZQ
.
.
.
Atlantis!
 +9 / -0
Darkknight757
Darkknight757 2 days ago
Man would I love to ask a Jw at one of those apathy carts to define "the good news". I bet they can't do it. They would just dumbly say to go to Jw.org like the zombies they are.
 +1 / -0
Calebs Airplane
Calebs Airplane 2 days ago
So the Apathy cart does have Jay Hoover's blessing. We were wrong all along!
 +1 / -0
cofty
cofty 2 days ago

"thousands are being directed towards Jw.org"
That is really appalling.
(click on the link - ha)
 +2 / -0
neat blue dog
neat blue dog 2 days ago
Thanks, been waiting for this!
 +1 / -1
pontoon
pontoon 2 days ago
Not nearly as extreme, the brother giving the talk seems to be copying Lett's style of speaking.
 +2 / -0
Atlantis
Atlantis 2 days ago

Thank you everybody! Pontoon good hearing from you again!
Atlantis!
 +1 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot 2 days ago


Atlantis - "Between minutes 1:05--1:10 of this video, the Watchtower plainly states that they are directing people to (jw.org) No mention of directing people to God's Kingdom, or to God, or even Jesus Christ"
Well, it's official, now.
The Org is everything.
 
jookbeard
jookbeard 2 days ago
if I had a pound for every time they spout "go to the website" I'd have a fair few by now, if I also had a pound for every time I've said to them"I've been to the website and the information is not there" and have a few as well.
 +1 / -0
steve2
steve2 a day ago

And they choose a country that has been jw-growth stagnant since at least 1998!
Look at these "juicy" stats contrasting 1998 and last year for the Netherlands:
Year Peak publishers Baptisms Memorial attendance
1998 31,915 742 52,584
2015 30,042 529 51,743.
Talk about the video beefing up a skinny carcass.
Edited to add: sorry about the lost formatting after this is posted. Ill try it later on a spreadsheet then post it.
 +1 / -0

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2016 Watchtower Cart Campaign Video!
by Atlantis 2 days ago 17 Replies latest 8 hours ago   watchtower bible
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steve2
steve2 a day ago

Here are the stats for the Netherlands in a spreadsheet. For some reason even posting spreadsheets results in loss of formatting, but the numbers should be more readable.

YEAR

PEAK PUBS

BAPTISMS

MEMORIAL
 
1998

31,915

742

52,584
 
2015

30,042

529

51,743
 
 +2 / -0
redvip2000
redvip2000 a day ago

The Watchtower is finally coming to grips with the fact that preaching door to door is an absolute colossal waste of time. Not only is it not effective, but it also exposes JWs to debates and criticism, possibly embarrassment.
This is much better for them, it further isolates them right under the nose of the public. They know that JWs will just stand like drones for hours next to the carts without engaging anybody. Money will still come in, hours will still be counted, and maybe some JWs who hate going door to door will be more wiling to stand on the street without talking to anybody, which means more hours.

 +2 / -0
sparrowdown
sparrowdown a day ago
They just want to create a bunch of mind controlled Jorgtards.
 
Richard C B
Richard C B a day ago
ORGANISATION RER RER RER BLAHBLAHBLAH WHY DONT YOU LOT MOVE ON AND GET A LIFE ITS SO BORING THIS FORUM
 +0 / -4
steve2
steve2 a day ago

 ORGANISATION RER RER RER BLAHBLAHBLAH WHY DONT YOU LOT MOVE ON AND GET A LIFE ITS SO BORING THIS FORUM
You've been "on" the forum for over a year. Sounds like you need to take your own advice. The last time I looked, no one was making you dip into posts or expecting you to post in return.
 +2 / -0
Dagney
Dagney a day ago

They lost me when they went ON and ON about how excited people were that there was a book in their own language. Really? They are in Europe.
Then again, it's probably the highlight of their day.
 +1 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot 12 hours ago

@ redvip2000...
Yup.
They're making it easier and easier to be a obedient loyalists whilst further alienating any doubters and fence-sitters...
 
Gorbatchov
Gorbatchov 8 hours ago
I have seen the Amsterdam cart campain and the way it was organized. The JW involved, and there were many, were very internal focussed. Like robots they followed the instructions, with the famous "we are better than the world" marketing drive. There was no mention in the media about the campain.
 

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Topic Summary
2016 watchtower cart campaign video... this video does not seem to be listed on jw.org, so it may not be available to rank and file jws.. .. organizational accomplishments-sail amsterdam.
.. between minutes 1:05--1:10 of this video, the watchtower plainly states that they are directing people to (jw.org) no mention of directing people to god's kingdom, or to god or even jesus christ.. .. between minutes 2:45--2:52 the statement is made that the demonstrations focus primarily on promoting (jw.org) again, no mention of god's kingdom or jesus christ.. .. it is pretty clear to see that (jw.org) has taken the drivers seat and god's kingdom and jesus christ have been placed in the back seat.. .. https://we.tl/eejg44rezq.
.. .. .. atlantis!.



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before you put this week's wt away, look at page 3.--
by prologos 2 days ago 12 Replies latest 9 hours ago   watchtower bible
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prologos
prologos 2 days ago

page 3 or any other side, foot notes and share them. Bored today I looked at page 3 and 2 of the 4 elated willing offerings really looked peeved, Simone and Eston, Even if you serve in a vacation destination, paradise, reality will set in, and it will show as in this telling picture. and: page 22, it is downhill all the way.
 
steve2
steve2 2 days ago
For anyone who doesn't have the mag, the OP is unhelpful. Can you provide a link - otherwise I've not idea what you are talking about.
 +1 / -0
Khaleesi
Khaleesi 2 days ago
Also look at this week's study article picture, the one with the angel directing the JWS to the house, i believe I found a subliminal image of a skull/ghost on the right side of the house, where there's a dark wall.... very erie spooky... i was bored too & spotted it
 +1 / -0
jhine
jhine 2 days ago

You two really need a hobby !
Jan
 +4 / -1
jhine
jhine 2 days ago

Why the dislike ? I was only joking , meant no offence .
Jan
 +6 / -1
Listener
Listener a day ago
Prologos, that is a good point about the Shepherd leading his sheep downhill in the picture.
 
BlackWolf
BlackWolf a day ago
Lol! My family and I were studying the watchtower a few weeks ago and noticed that! We all laughed. :grinning: At least they dont take the watchtower seriously all of the time.
 +1 / -0
flamegrilled
flamegrilled a day ago
Funny observations. There was one JW broadcast a while back when the family were all lined up and the mum was telling the story about the son who sold the cow, and the looks on the faces of the siblings were priceless.

 +0 / -1
FayeDunaway
FayeDunaway a day ago
Jan you have fortunately never been a witness and don't understand being TRAPPED at the most boring meeting you could ever, ever imagine, and the stupor that sets in while you sit there. And it's the same thing, week after week after week. There's no pursuing hobbies at times like that. There's not anything but the droning of voices and being stuck to your chair with a magazine in front of you with odd pictures to look at!
 +2 / -0
prologos
prologos a day ago
Listen: --"Prologos, that is a good point about the Shepherd leading his sheep downhill in the picture.,yeah, the shearing station, the abattoir are in the valley (of no return). I wish somebody could put up a link to page 3, for free.
 

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before you put this week's wt away, look at page 3.--
by prologos 2 days ago 12 Replies latest 9 hours ago   watchtower bible
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jhine
jhine 21 hours ago

Faye , thanks for that . l didn't get the context , as you realised .
Jan
 
fulano
fulano 20 hours ago
I put the Watchtower away 15 years ago. A link?
 
DesirousOfChange
DesirousOfChange 9 hours ago

Why the dislike ? I was only joking , meant no offence
Jan, when you tell a joke (or in this case satire), you are supposed to tell the audience that you are about to tell a joke, or else about 1/2 of them will not know they are supposed to laugh because they will not realize that you just told them a joke.
Notice the next stand up comedian you see. He will start with something like: "I have to tell you about a FUNNY thing that happened to me the last time I was at . . . . . ."
Then he'll tell his "funny" story. Everyone laughs because they were alerted in advance that it would be "funny".
He'll even usually follow up with something like: "Wow! That was FUNNY wasn't it! . . . . . ."


Doc

 

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Topic Summary
page 3 or any other side, foot notes and share them.
bored today i looked at page 3 and 2 of the 4 elated willing offerings really looked peeved, simone and eston, even if you serve in a vacation destination, paradise, reality will set in, and it will show as in this telling picture.
and:  page 22, it is downhill all the way.



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OrphanCrow
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by OrphanCrow 5 months ago
AndersonsInfo
Church of God pastor writes what could be to some a helpful synopsis of Ray Franz "Crisis of Conscience."
by AndersonsInfo 9 months ago
Terry
OF DOGS AND BITES AND BIKES AND THINGS
by Terry 6 months ago
millie210
Vacation Time! Going To A Regional?
by millie210 9 months ago
Watchtower-Free
Latest Leaked BOE letter to Elders Oct. 4th
by Watchtower-Free 6 months ago



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Bible Research & Study Articles
Critical analysis of the WatchTower Bible & Tract Society publications and the bible
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Perry
3
Big Prophecy vs. Big Profits ...See
by Perry in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 6 hours ago
during the 20th century while we had our eyes fixated on our "one-time" idol the watchtower and their false prophecies like the generation of 1914, king of the north & south flip flops, 1975, "the generation that wouldn't pass away", etc.

; a number of actual prophecies were unfolding.

we just weren't taught to look for them.

cofty
M*A*S*H
Jehalapeno
4 hours ago
ttdtt
11
More Ant-Evolution BS in this months JW Broadcast Program
by ttdtt in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 7 hours ago
so at around the 46 min mark - the are talking to this guy from ukraine who was a zoologist.. he talks about how he was a staunch evolutionist (who wasn't able to prove evolution to himself, by the way).

then when he studied nature through the lens of evolution - he found that nature contradicted evolution.. his big point came when he said - "imagine emptying a box of letter blocks on a table, and the encyclopedia britannica appears, or could a computer program come by chance.

so who could dna come by chance.".

Diogenesister
Finkelstein
atomant
3 hours ago
James Mixon
8
Sins that can burn your buns.
by James Mixon in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 12 hours ago
if you are a believer what sins can send you to sheol, hades, gehenna, lake of fire or.

second death???

in the ot there were many but what about the nt.. one web page listed 40 sins that can send you to hell.lol.

cofty
Jehalapeno
James Mixon
4 hours ago
Perry
4
Prophecy vs. Profits ....See
by Perry in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 2 days ago
while we had our eyes fixated on our "one-time" idol the watchtower and their false prophecies like the generation of 1914 that wouldn't pass away, 1975 etc.

; a number of real prophecies were unfolding.

we just weren't taught to look for them.

jookbeard
cofty
Vidiot
2 days ago
prologos
12
before you put this week's wt away, look at page 3.--
by prologos in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 2 days ago
page 3 or any other side, foot notes and share them.

bored today i looked at page 3 and 2 of the 4 elated willing offerings really looked peeved, simone and eston, even if you serve in a vacation destination, paradise, reality will set in, and it will show as in this telling picture.

and:  page 22, it is downhill all the way.

jhine
fulano
DesirousOfChange
9 hours ago
Atlantis
17
2016 Watchtower Cart Campaign Video!
by Atlantis in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 2 days ago
2016 watchtower cart campaign video... this video does not seem to be listed on jw.org, so it may not be available to rank and file jws.. .. organizational accomplishments-sail amsterdam.

.. between minutes 1:05--1:10 of this video, the watchtower plainly states that they are directing people to (jw.org) no mention of directing people to god's kingdom, or to god or even jesus christ.. .. between minutes 2:45--2:52 the statement is made that the demonstrations focus primarily on promoting (jw.org) again, no mention of god's kingdom or jesus christ.. .. it is pretty clear to see that (jw.org) has taken the drivers seat and god's kingdom and jesus christ have been placed in the back seat.. .. https://we.tl/eejg44rezq.

.. .. .. atlantis!.

Dagney
Vidiot
Gorbatchov
8 hours ago
Perry
5
Prophecy vs. Profits ...See
by Perry in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 3 days ago
while we had our eyes fixated on our "one-time" idol the watchtower and their false prophecies like the generation of 1914 that wouldn't pass away, 1975 etc.

; a number of real prophecies were unfolding.

we just weren't taught to look for them.

jookbeard
GoneAwol
Perry
2 days ago
James Mixon
11
The story of GOD.
by James Mixon in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 3 days ago
sunday 9 p.m april 3rd.

morgan freeman asks questions on faith., national geographic channel.. while posting this two sisters came to my door and encouraging me to come back things have changed.

since 1975 , and then they said "you should come back to jehovah be fore it's to late we made mistakes.

Heaven
Cold Steel
baker
a day ago
pleaseresearch
8
JW Memorial = Black mass
by pleaseresearch in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 4 days ago
i've heard this before that what jws do is the same as a black mass.

could someone give me a link, book or evidence to support this please..

Damascus
freeman
SpiritualGal08
3 days ago
smiddy
49
The Christian GOD / Old Testament GOD , one and the same right? A GOD of Love ?
by smiddy in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 4 days ago
and god is the same today as he was yesterday and will be the same tomorrow.. in other words he is unchangeable.. what a bloodthirsty god he was in the old testament., at his command killing old men young men women and children by the sword , a two edged sword i might add in some cases.cutting both ways.. put yourself in that situation for a minute , either as a victim or the executioner.

can you imagine piercing some other human with a two edged sword ?

especially if they were a child ?

rebelfighter
cofty
Heaven
2 days ago
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organization obsesion
by Richard C B a day ago 73 Replies latest 8 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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Richard C B
Richard C B a day ago
Why are you guys so obsessed with organizations? there has to be order in the world and organised people!
 +0 / -11
Finkelstein
Finkelstein a day ago

So dangerously corrupt lying cults are OK and beneficial for humanity ?
This is the kind of sociological organization that no one needs and would be in everyones best interest to stay away from.

 +9 / -0
Richard C B
Richard C B a day ago
Hahaha here we go lol
 +0 / -4
Richard C B
Richard C B a day ago
frankensten your such a hero
 +0 / -4
Village Idiot
Village Idiot a day ago



So what's your point Richard?
 +4 / -0
sparrowdown
sparrowdown a day ago

I am not obsessed with organizations. I am interested in exposing corrupt religious cults like the WT though. 
Thanks for asking, Dick.
 +11 / -0
brandnew
brandnew a day ago
Order people to be orderly , in order to be able to order them around, and ummmm shewt....imma ORDER me another beer.☺☺
 +5 / -0
xjwsrock
xjwsrock a day ago

Cults are some of the most organized organizations on earth. So are dictatorships. I guess we should praise them because of their neat checklists.
Look... I get it that sheeple need a pen, but exploitation is another thing altogether.
 +6 / -0
Richard C B
Richard C B a day ago
This website and forum is a disorganised cult
 +1 / -18
Hoffnung
Hoffnung a day ago
Watchtower is wielding its power by means of the organization. The jw.org, and before that 'the society', is the holy cow, way more important than god or christ. The original church was not centrally organized. Hence the watchtower model is in discrepancy with what it claims to be in its very foundations
 +3 / -0

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organization obsesion
by Richard C B a day ago 73 Replies latest 8 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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Richard C B
Richard C B a day ago

@village idiot... The point is you lot are obsessed with THE organisation
 
DeWandelaar
DeWandelaar a day ago
Criminals have organisations... That makes them ok too, right? Where does the JW-cult fits in?
 +2 / -0
Richard C B
Richard C B a day ago
@ dewander yes successful criminals are organised. agreed
 +1 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein a day ago

It all depends what a organization does, how it effects people for the good or the bad toward individuals and the greater good of mankind.
As its been known there have been some good organizations that have developed and there has been some egregiously bad ones as well.
This particular religious cult as lied and manipulated people to serve and support the operations of its literature proliferation agenda.
In due process of this agenda it has killed thousands, broken millions of families apart and indirectly caused many suicides.
From a humanitarian perspective, does that sound like a virtuous wholesome organization to you ?

 +3 / -0
Richard C B
Richard C B a day ago
@finkle why are you trying this cult stuff with me??? I don't really care if you think its a cult my point is your obsessed with IT. Move on brother
 +0 / -2
Finkelstein
Finkelstein a day ago

frankensten your such a hero
No just baring the facts with sincerity and personal integrity that's all.
No heroism required

 +3 / -0
Village Idiot
Village Idiot a day ago


Richard C B:
This website and forum is a disorganised cult
Why do you consider us to be a cult?

Richard C B:
@village idiot... The point is you lot are obsessed with THE organization
I am obsessed with the organization? Which I take it to be the Watchtower.
By the way, are you still in "The Organization"?
 +2 / -0
AnneB
AnneB a day ago


there has to be order in the world and organised people!
Why?

 +2 / -0
cofty
cofty a day ago

Why are you guys so obsessed with organizations?
What a strange question. Who is obsessed with organizations?
there has to be order in the world and organised people!
Yes.
There are organisations with positive objectives who respect personal freedoms and there are others with malevolent objectives who do great harm.
The Watchtower are the latter sort.
What's your point?
 +3 / -0
brandnew
brandnew a day ago
I think Rich is obsessed with exjw's n stuff 😂😂
 +4 / -0

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Topic Summary
why are you guys so obsessed with organizations?
there has to be order in the world and organised people!



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organization obsesion
by Richard C B a day ago 73 Replies latest 8 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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Richard C B
Richard C B a day ago
@finkle I hear you sir no worries @village Many things could be viewed as a cult including this type of disjointed gathering of likeminded people on here.
 +0 / -2
tornapart
tornapart a day ago



 +8 / -0
oppostate
oppostate a day ago

Dear Richard C B, whose member account name must stand for "Richard Cult B*tch" am I right?
JW's prefer the term 0rganization because their turd of a Company President Judge for four days Rutherford told them the term religion was a no-no.
So today the JW religion that Rutherford founded on the schizophrenic Millenerian Bible Student movement, is an 0rganization and they proudly display their JW.0rg signs because the money-making religious and litigious company wasn't successful in getting it copyrighted, otherwise the religions-minions wouldn't be able to brandish it about like the previous religion's Watchtower logo which was a no-no to use.
So that's the obsession about 0rganization, or as much of an answer I venture to give you nincompoop of a troll.
 +3 / -1
Finkelstein
Finkelstein a day ago

First off asshole I'm not your brother.

This particular religious institution as been designated as a high controlling cult for its formative operative policies directed toward its engaging members.
It has tactics structured in place to lure people into it by corrupt coercive means, then exploiting people manipulatively for both labor and money.

 +3 / -1
Richard C B
Richard C B a day ago
wow what a lovely bunch
 +1 / -0
sparrowdown
sparrowdown a day ago

Fun with Dick the troll.
 +3 / -1
Richard C B
Richard C B a day ago

of people you lot are attacking someone you don't know
 
Finkelstein
Finkelstein a day ago

If anything JWs are overwhelmingly obsessed with the WTS organization....  Why ?
Because they been corruptly indoctrinated to do so from a psychological perspective ( brainwashed) in other words.

 +2 / -0
Village Idiot
Village Idiot a day ago
So Richard, are you a JW or not?
 +1 / -0
Richard C B
Richard C B a day ago

because I don't agree with you I'm a troll? lol your the brainwashed ones.
 

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why are you guys so obsessed with organizations?
there has to be order in the world and organised people!



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organization obsesion
by Richard C B a day ago 73 Replies latest 8 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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cofty
cofty a day ago
RCB we had this conversation 6 months ago...
 +1 / -0
tornapart
tornapart a day ago

JWs are obsessed with THE organisation.... JW.org is everywhere
 +1 / -0
Richard C B
Richard C B a day ago
@village why should I answer you? what difference would it make?
 
sparrowdown
sparrowdown a day ago

Many have dignified your baiting question with an answer.
 +1 / -0
Village Idiot
Village Idiot a day ago


Richard C B:
of people you lot are attacking someone you don't know
You've made yourself known by the arrogant way in which you opened this thread and your comments on other threads.
 +3 / -0
Richard C B
Richard C B a day ago

@village P.S. no
 
Richard C B
Richard C B a day ago
@village that you made a judgement without getting to know me
 
Village Idiot
Village Idiot a day ago


Richard C B:
@village why should I answer you? what difference would it make?
So why are you here talking to us?
 +1 / -0
GrreatTeacher
GrreatTeacher a day ago
Ok, Dick, time to saddle up and move on outta town.
 +2 / -0
Village Idiot
Village Idiot a day ago


Richard C B:
@village that you made a judgement without getting to know me
You're making yourself known by the way you're talking to us.
 +2 / -0

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why are you guys so obsessed with organizations?
there has to be order in the world and organised people!



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organization obsesion
by Richard C B a day ago 73 Replies latest 8 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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Richard C B
Richard C B a day ago
@village how was I supposed to know everyone would gang up and abusively attack me? I was starting a discussion that has seemed to gotten out of hand
 
Richard C B
Richard C B a day ago
calm down calm down haha
 
Richard C B
Richard C B a day ago

can someone boot me off
 
Richard C B
Richard C B a day ago
one final thing!!! my wife loves ya
 +1 / -0
Village Idiot
Village Idiot a day ago


Richard C B:
@village how was I supposed to know everyone would gang up and abusively attack me?

Richard C B:
frankensten your such a hero

Richard C B:
Hahaha here we go lol
 
OUTLAW
OUTLAW a day ago


organization obsesion
This website and forum is a disorganised cult
The point is you lot are obsessed with THE organisation......Richard C B
If You Want to Take the Spotlight Off of The WatchTower..
.
..................DON`T FORGET THE CATHOLICS!..

..........Image result for Jw.org Broad Casting
 +1 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein a day ago

What it is Richard is that some people only care about themselves, whatever they can find that they can consume toward their own satisfying personal benefit.
One person comes to mind is the guy that started this corrupt publishing house J Rutherford.

A lawyer who grabbed control of the WTS (Organization) because of the potentiality of consuming its wealth and controlling power. A guy who built a luxury home so that the ancient worthies of biblical times can live in when they are resurrected. A guy who then lived in that home until he died, whom also was separated from his wife , living with his mistress in that nicely appointed house.
Yes Jah picks them well doesn't he !


 +1 / -0
Richard C B
Richard C B a day ago
OH just one more thing, nice car. Goodnight
 
Finkelstein
Finkelstein a day ago

Enjoy your brainwashing Richard  at least you can resolve within yourself that you were at least warned about this orchestrative religious cult and its potential damage it can cause people.

Next time you hear of someone committing suicide that had some connection with this organization, I hope you'll reflect upon about what you've read and were warned about the JWS, by loving people here and elsewhere..

 +2 / -0
bradford
bradford a day ago
Trolls be trolling.
 +3 / -0

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why are you guys so obsessed with organizations?
there has to be order in the world and organised people!



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by lsw1961 5 months ago
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organization obsesion
by Richard C B a day ago 73 Replies latest 8 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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SecretSlaveClass
SecretSlaveClass a day ago
Don't bother arguing with this child, and I mean child in the literal sense. Richie do I need to repost those PM's you sent me the last time you came by?
 +3 / -0
flamegrilled
flamegrilled a day ago

This post has been rated  click to view
 +3 / -0
elbib
elbib a day ago

Within JW Org can anyone remain without being punished if he finds it difficult to subscribe to one of their belief. When I said: "i dont' think 144000 is literal number" I had to face the iron-bar beating.
They are "organized" for what? To distort the truth
 +4 / -0
JW_Rogue
JW_Rogue a day ago

So then Richard what should the board focus on about the JWs? The organization pretty much exerts control over every baptized member, everything they do or say comes from the top down.
This website and forum is a disorganised cult
No, it's a voluntary web forum. You can leave and we won't make your family shun you.
 +2 / -0
steve2
steve2 a day ago

Richie, you just gotta keep scratching that damn old itch, don't you. You're fast becoming as boring as this forum that you recentky accused of being boring.
Move up, move aside, move back, move forward, but for God's sake move.
BTW, scratching isn't the only antidote to an itch. Flea powder also helps. 👍
 +2 / -0
berrygerry
berrygerry a day ago
It always amazes me how many posts trolls can get (54 in 4 hours).

 +3 / -0
zeb
zeb a day ago
This Richard, I guess he had a good night last night.
 +1 / -0
alcyone
alcyone a day ago


one final thing!!! my wife loves ya
Richard, talk to your elders and the CO, show them how you defend "the truth" on the Internet. They will love you too

 +4 / -0
punkofnice
punkofnice 21 hours ago

Why are you guys so obsessed with organizations?
A loaded question. To answer it is to agree there is 'obsession' with, well, let's be honest, the watchtower corporation.
I'm not answering such a question.
 
nowwhat?
nowwhat? 16 hours ago
Dear Richard I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. Maybe you are a troll or maybe you are confrontational . if I were you I would start over with a new name or apologize if you have sincere questions or concerns. We were all very indoctrinated at one point like you.
 +3 / -0

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Topic Summary
why are you guys so obsessed with organizations?
there has to be order in the world and organised people!



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Polish BOE Re: Legal matters and revised charter for Poland
by wifibandit 5 months ago
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I COLLECT QUOTES. . . Here are some of my favorites
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by dubstepped a month ago
lsw1961
JWs have more good points than bad
by lsw1961 5 months ago
new boy
Chapter 2 of the Novel "New Boy"
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organization obsesion
by Richard C B a day ago 73 Replies latest 8 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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SecretSlaveClass
SecretSlaveClass 16 hours ago

Nowwhat
No he is a literal child and a troll. The last time he swung by here he was shut down quickly, particularly with the profanity laden PM's he sent me which I shared with the forum. No seriously, he's a child looking to troll, period. Just ignore the little brat.
 +6 / -0
M*A*S*H
M*A*S*H 16 hours ago

@Richard. I assume you have some doubts about the organisation and would love for you to share them with the board.
You must have doubts. If you truly believed the org was guided by Jehovah, you surely would take the council of the org and not associate with the apostates on this board?
 +1 / -0
eyeuse2badub
eyeuse2badub 16 hours ago

History bears out that the wt organization is extremely obsessed with discrediting every other 'organization' on earth except the wt. Therefore, it is equally incumbent on those who have first hand knowledge and experience to use whatever means available to expose the wt organization for what it really is.
In all "fairness" to the corrupt wt organization, all other religious 'organizations' are no doubt the same! It's just that we on this forum have personal (bad) experience with wt.
just saying!
eyeuse2badub
 +1 / -0
Londo111
Londo111 14 hours ago

How does one measure obsession? This is a forum, the main topic being the Watchtower organization, its doctrines, practices, history and how it has touched people’s lives.
If one went to an online forum about horses or music that would be the main topic. That topic would not likely dominate a person’s life as they’d have a life outside. On a forum dedicated to a certain topic, we only see a small slice of people’s lives.
Back to the topic, I believe being organized is good, but it is a matter of degree. By default, organizations are not always a bad thing. Again, it is a matter of to what extreme.
For instance, government is not a bad thing and better than chaos. When people work together, they can accomplish more than on their own for the common good. However, a totalitarian dictatorship, without checks and balances, is the other extreme. The question is good vs harmful.
As pertinent to the Watchtower organization, many on this forum feel it is a harmful organization and is on the extreme end of the organization spectrum. People are concerned because they’ve friends and loved ones inside that could be and are being harmed in one way or another. People also cannot just walk away like they can in other organizations, not without losing the people they care about via shunning. Some people have experienced horrific things at the hands of the organizational machinery.
Also many have deeply examined what was the center of their life, the Watchtower organization, and have thoroughly realized it is not “the Truth”. Perhaps because of examining the history and older publications or examining the foundational teachings (607, 1914, 1919, Faithful Slave, door-to-door, great crowd). That is deeply unsettling as many have spent a good part of their lives and life choices to something that turned out be false. Now they are being shunned (or in danger of being shunned if they let it slip) by all the people they love over something that is a lie.
Other people who have left controlling groups, like Scientology, the Moonies, or the Mormons have similar experiences.
 +1 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot 13 hours ago


Richard C B - "there has to be order in the world and organised people..."
...said every fascist demagogue throughout history.
 +3 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot 13 hours ago


JW_Rogue - "You can leave and we won't make your family shun you."
You can even change your mind and come back without needing to be "reinstated".
x
(unless, of course, you forgot your password :smirk:)
 +3 / -0
WatchtowerReviewz
WatchtowerReviewz 11 hours ago

Perhaps you would benefit from examining the BITE model. https://www.freedomofmind.com/Info/BITE/bitemodel.php
The Jehovah's Witness organization is a high control group. People have been abused and have had entire families and social structures taken from them simply because they wanted out of this organization. Yet you still wonder why some of these people seem obsessed?
I wonder how you would react if you were blackmailed and had your entire social circle turned against you? Or how about being a parent to a child that was sexually molested by someone in the congregation that was protected by the organizations draconian policies on handling pedophiles? What about a family member that committed suicide because they were guilted and drained by Watchtowers ridiculous rules and fear mongering?
 
LongHairGal
LongHairGal 11 hours ago

Sorry to tell everybody, but I think the original poster left the building.....Once the answers got too hot and heavy he couldn't take it and ran away!
It is common for a lot of Witnesses who have bits and pieces of information about why ex-JWs hate the religion to make such pathetic statements in defense of the religion. They may have overheard a few buzz words and they came up with the lame idea that the issue is about "organization". Meanwhile, they haven't got the foggiest idea about the religion's history or the depth of the scandals.
They have NO idea of the Truth About The Truth and the mountain of information against the religion.
This person just needs a good history and current events course about what the Witness religion is REALLY all about instead of the sanitized garbage the religion says about itself. He has to have the courage to do independent research!
 
Doubtfully Yours
Doubtfully Yours 11 hours ago

A good forum for venting and express opinions. That's all.
DY
 
Diogenesister
Diogenesister 10 hours ago

People can you back off this dude...it started off OK and you were starting to get into a reasonable convo about stuff with him, he was actually starting to listen after his first daft comment...
Richard I apologize ....you made a comment some don't agree with but you don't deserve insults for it that some at the beginning of the thread gave you.
Edited to add I think his wife uses this forum...maybe she's trying to wake him up. Why don't we help rarther than hinder.
 +0 / -2

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why are you guys so obsessed with organizations?
there has to be order in the world and organised people!



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wifibandit
Polish BOE Re: Legal matters and revised charter for Poland
by wifibandit 5 months ago
Terry
I COLLECT QUOTES. . . Here are some of my favorites
by Terry 14 days ago
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Life After Disassociation (or really leaving by any means)
by dubstepped a month ago
lsw1961
JWs have more good points than bad
by lsw1961 5 months ago
new boy
Chapter 2 of the Novel "New Boy"
by new boy 7 days ago



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organization obsesion
by Richard C B a day ago 73 Replies latest 8 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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SecretSlaveClass
SecretSlaveClass 10 hours ago
I seriously can't believe you intelligent lot are debating a child. Didn't you read the post I shared concerning his PMs with me? Wow. Keep feeding the kids ego, seriously go ahead. He's a teenager and beating the shit out of adults as far as effort goes. But hey, keep feeding him ... Who am I to to laugh at you all?
 +2 / -0
steve2
steve2 9 hours ago

A good forum for venting and express opinions.
Thanks Doubtfully Yours. To those two benefits I would add the following:
◦Enables posters to become clearer about their own misgivings and doubts
◦Helps the exchange of ideas, arguments, etc (in contrast to an environment that views these sorts of exchanges in a negative light)
◦Helps posters realize there is a large common swell of "complaints" against jw org - so it is well understood by others. For example, when posters disclose their particular concerns, more often than not there will be a strong sense of shared empathy - which is important for those who have felt isolated and like "they" are the problem
◦A source of information on how indoctrination works to stifle questioning of religious authorities
◦Shared experiences are excellent antidotes for "personalizing" the expereince as due to "spiritual weakness/laziness"
◦An emerging focus on resilience factors (e.g., despite the difficulties within the organization and the difficulties getting "space" from it, people exhibit a range of qualities, skills etc that suggest some strength and a refusal to collapse into hopelessness)
◦A shared language such as TTATT - which encapsulates an invigorating idea - namely, that of stepping back from familiar "truths" and detecting the very opposite
◦A resource for a range of healthy options/alternatives for people after leaving. In the past, the "loudest" voices against jw org were alternate religious ones. Now there are several well developed threads of angnostic and atheistic views on the matter.
◦Provides a timeline of changes and developments within jw org. For those of us still interested in what goes on in jw.org (because of family ties), this forum is usually up with the play - often even before elders have been informed.
◦Unlike in the vacuum-tight world of jws, knowledge shared on this forum is empowering - what people do or don't do with that knowledge is their business. 
 
NeverKnew
NeverKnew 8 hours ago

SecretSlaveClass
has he really won? Think of all of the lurkers who have just watched the immaturity of one of their own's behavior.
Personally, if he were one of mine, I'd be embarrassed
It's in their faces and now that's something THEY have to think about.
 
SecretSlaveClass
SecretSlaveClass 8 hours ago

NeverKnew:
A troll child doesn't care. So yes he won. He consumed all your time getting your attention. It has nothing to do with JW commitment. Like I said, if you read my postings of his IM's to me full of profanity. The CHILD doesn't care about the JW religion, only your attention. But be my guest, keep engaging him and convince yourself that is what he's all about. Get it? He's a CHILD, as in barely pubescent.
 +3 / -0

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why are you guys so obsessed with organizations?
there has to be order in the world and organised people!



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wifibandit
Polish BOE Re: Legal matters and revised charter for Poland
by wifibandit 5 months ago
Terry
I COLLECT QUOTES. . . Here are some of my favorites
by Terry 14 days ago
dubstepped
Life After Disassociation (or really leaving by any means)
by dubstepped a month ago
lsw1961
JWs have more good points than bad
by lsw1961 5 months ago
new boy
Chapter 2 of the Novel "New Boy"
by new boy 7 days ago



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Are you people the Watchtower?
by Richard C B a day ago 18 Replies latest 13 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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Richard C B
Richard C B a day ago
×Close
Are you people 'The Watchtower'?
No - we're an independent community site offering support for both current and former Jehovah's Witnesses and anyone else who has been affected by the beliefs, doctrines and practices of the Jehovah's Witness religion as governed by the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society (WTB&TS).
We are not affiliated with the WTB&TS in any way and we take your privacy and security very seriously doing our utmost to protect your identity and provide a friendly, tolerant and informative environment where you can ask questions, share information and make new friends. Membership is completely free and anonymous so why not join toda
 +1 / -1
jookbeard
jookbeard a day ago
you stick to protecting your paedophiles , lying , making failed prophecies etc , we are quite happy.
 
Richard C B
Richard C B a day ago

Notice the guidelines; offering support.....friendly tolerant and informative environment...where you can ask questions,,,,,
How is this when I posted a topic and I was verbaly abused called an asshole and a cult bitch for what? questioning.
Seems like the admin are turning a blind eye

 +0 / -3
Richard C B
Richard C B a day ago



 +0 / -1
bradford
bradford a day ago
Explain again why you are here?
 +1 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein a day ago

That came about by your lack of respect to other posters.
After reviewing your other thread topics you've made, it looks like ......

Your just wanting and seeking support for the JWS organization, which looks like your got yourself involved with. You best move on to another forum.

 
Richard C B
Richard C B a day ago



 +0 / -1
jookbeard
jookbeard a day ago
Richard C B you are a paedophile,liar and a monster, sue me, and its libel not slander, the edit button in full force I see!
 
SecretSlaveClass
SecretSlaveClass a day ago
I see the troll is back. Your parents let you out of the basement to play with the iPad Richie?
 
Village Idiot
Village Idiot a day ago
Richard, you bade us goodnight 36 minutes ago now you seem to have awoken and started a fresh thread.
 

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Are you people the Watchtower?
by Richard C B a day ago 18 Replies latest 13 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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Village Idiot
Village Idiot a day ago


Richard C B:
How is this when I posted a topic and I was verbaly abused called an asshole and a cult bitch for what?"
Richard, you started the abuse with sarcasm and vitriol - projecting?
 
BlackWolf
BlackWolf a day ago
What the heck?? I don't understand this thread at all.
 +1 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein a day ago

The thread topic is one of rhetorical Vindictiveness, in that we are watching what the WTS says and enacts.

 
Miss Behaving
Miss Behaving a day ago
Troll
 
brandnew
brandnew a day ago

Respect demands respect
Friendliness works the same way my friend.
So chill out.
 +1 / -0
alcyone
alcyone a day ago

These people are coming here to get rid of their doubts and to reaffirm they are in the truth.
So they troll a bit, say some nonsense and when they get spanked, they say "bye bye you mentally sick apostates, i proved to myself you are not as loving as our clean organization"

 +1 / -0
punkofnice
punkofnice 21 hours ago
No. I'm awake!
 
tim3l0rd
tim3l0rd 15 hours ago

Richard,
Many of us have been hurt in several ways by the "org" and so our feeling towards it are raw. Many also would like to see it cease to exist, just as JWs would like to convert everyone if possible. Telling us to "move on" is the same as telling JWs to stop preaching. JWs would say that's ludicrous as they are trying to save lives. We feel the same.
Personally, I rarely engage on this forum any more as I prefer the reddit exjw community.
I hope you find what you're looking for. :smile:
 +1 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot 13 hours ago
Maybe he's counting service time. :smirk:
 

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Topic Summary
×close are you people 'the watchtower'?.
no - we're an independent community site offering support for both current and former jehovah's witnesses and anyone else who has been affected by the beliefs, doctrines and practices of the jehovah's witness religion as governed by the watch tower bible and tract society (wtb&ts).. we are not affiliated with the wtb&ts in any way and we take your privacy and security very seriously doing our utmost to protect your identity and provide a friendly, tolerant and informative environment where you can ask questions, share information and make new friends.
membership is completely free and anonymous so why not join toda.



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by AndersonsInfo 2 months ago
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by OrphanCrow 4 months ago
Greybeard
The KEY WORD in Isaiah 44:25-26 is "Predictions" and the apostles NEVER made any predictions setting dates.
by Greybeard 4 months ago



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Damned If You Do, Damned If You Don't: Religious Shunning and the free exercise clause
by defender of truth a day ago 2 Replies latest 15 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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defender of truth
defender of truth a day ago

The following link is to a PDF file found on the Penn Law Legal Scholarship Repository website.
" The Penn Law Legal Scholarship Repository is the institutional repository of the University of Pennsylvania Law School. Its purpose is to collect and preserve the scholarly output of Penn Law. "

http://scholarship.law.upenn.edu/
Please share any thoughts you have on the reasoning used in this document.

Damned If You Do, Damned If You Don't: Religious Shunning and the free exercise clause
If you don't trust my link, which would be fair enough, simply Google the following search term as I write it:
'religious shunning tax exempt'
It should be the very first page that comes up.

 +1 / -0
defender of truth
defender of truth 20 hours ago

Well, I found it to be a fascinating read...
I've never read anything like it before.
OK, assuming that people don't have time to read the whole thing, here are a few highlights:


Jehovah's Witnesses shun members after a process called "disfellowshipping."
"Members of the Jehovah's Witness community are prohibited-under threat of their own disfellowship-from having any contact with disfellowshipped persons and may not even greet them." Paul v. Watchtower Bible & Tract Soc'y of N.Y., Inc., 819 F.2d 875, 876 (9th Cir.), cert. denied, 108 S. Ct. 289 (1987); see also J. BERGMAN, JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES AND KINDRED GROUPS at xxiii "(1984) (discussing how dissenting Witnesses, who in 1938 voluntarily left the Society because of doctrinal differences, were "treated with indignation and animosity by their former brothers"). Family members are required to shun other family members who are disfellowshipped.

By definition, shunning seeks to quell dissent and subject individuals to the will of the group. This Comment questions whether the Constitution should elevate the rights of religious groups above the rights of individual members of religious groups. It concludes that absolute constitutional protection for shunning is inappropriate.


The second difficulty in applying the Sherbert rationale to shunning cases, is that free exercise issues will almost always apply to both parties. For example, imagine that a woman has been a member of a religious group for ten years. During that time, she has married, had children, and built a business that depends largely on trade with members of the group. The woman becomes embroiled in a doctrinal dispute with the group, and the group expels her. According to the group's beliefs, all persons expelled must be shunned. Therefore, even though the woman's husband has great love for his wife, the group elders order him, on pain of expulsion, to cease all physical and emotional contact with her. The children are also instructed to shun their mother, and individual members of the group stop doing business with her. The marriage ends in divorce and the woman sues the group and the elders for alienation of her spouse's affection. The group, however, responds with a free exercise defense: by shunning the plaintiff, it was merely practicing what it believed.
If the court allows the woman's suit to proceed and requires the group to pay tort damages to the wife, it burdens the group's free exercise of religion. On the other hand, the woman may claim that she was exercising her own religious beliefs by disputing the group's religious principles."

One possible objection to the conclusion that the group and the individual have equivalent free exercise concerns is that the religious group can show state action, but the individual cannot. The religious group could argue that its religious belief, which required shunning, would be burdened by state action

"' The message sent by the court would be that once the woman joins a group that practices shunning, she is effectively foreclosed from altering her beliefs. The impact of this result is magnified by the fact that a religious group may change its doctrine at any time before, during, or after a member leaves, and may retroactively impose punishment. This was precisely the situation in Paul v. Watchtower Bible and Tract Soc'y of N.Y., Inc., 819 F.2d 875, 876 (9th Cir.), cert. denied, 108 S. Ct. 289 (1987), in which Paul voluntarily withdrew from the Jehovah's Witnesses in 1975, only to have the governing body of the church amend its rules in 1981 to provide for the shunning of persons who had left voluntarily. See id. at 877. Paul subsequently was shunned and brought a legal action against her former church for the harm she had suffered.

As applied to the Paul case, this result is unsettling. Paul joined and left the church while one set of rules was in effect; under Hull, when the church later changed the rules to her detriment, she had no legal recourse.

Likewise, a church's treatment of former members should be limited to the conditions in force when the former members belonged to the church. This approach would not inhibit the free development of religious doctrine because the church would remain free to alter its doctrine at any time without altering its rights with respect to existing members; church members would be free to resign in the event that their church changed its doctrine without warning. It would also avoid the result in Paul, which permitted the majority to exercise control over its members past and present.


If the court is a state actor when it upholds the church member's tort claim, then it is a state actor when it upholds the religious group's free exercise defense.4
Another likely response to the woman's complaint is that she assumed the risk of shunning when she joined the group. The case law, however, does not uniformly bear out this contract-type model in practice.4 In fact, churches are free to change their doctrine at will, and church members cannot complain to the courts.

For some reason, this fact has never been recognized by courts or asserted by litigants in shunning disputes. If a court is willing to recognize the free exercise defense asserted by religious groups that practice shunning, then it should also recognize that a member who left the group may be protected by the free exercise clause. Although court recognition of the plaintiff's claim would place some burden upon the group's shunning behavior, recognition of the group's defense will burden the decision of a member to leave, at least from groups that sanction "shunning" of former members. The free exercise clause should not protect the group more than it protects the individual members of the group.

The Purposes of Shunning
The unity of any group that adheres to a given body of religious ideas is dependent to some extent upon its members' fear of being forced to live apart from the group." Generally, the more a religious group is considered to be in the minority, the greater its need for strong sanctions against deviations from the faith.55 There are a number of common sense explanations for this phenomenon. First, assuming that smaller religious sects are comprised mainly of converts from other, more "mainstream" sects, the threat of sanctions may persuade converts to remain faithful to their new sect after the first blush of inspirationwears off.

This appears to have been the case with the Jehovah's Witnesses, who adopted the practice of "disfellowshipping" sometime during the middle part of this century-in apparent response to the group's rapid growth.


Strong pressures toward uniformity exerted by groups tend to depend on the following characteristics: (1) little discrepancy of opinion within the group;
(2) greater degree of relevance of the disputed opinion to the functioning of the group;
(3) high group cohesiveness based upon close interpersonal relationships;
(4) exhibition of certain personality characteristics by members of the group, including authoritarian personalities, low self-esteem, self-blaming, a high need for affiliation, low intelligence, anxiety, and low tolerance for ambiguity; and
(5) cultural factors that seem to exist in societies that have birth and death rates that are both either high or low.).

1 See id. at 329 (discussing how deviants from one group will seek more compatible alternative groups).
The Mennonites and the Jehovah's Witnesses comprise relatively small, but cohesive, segments of their surrounding populations. The experiences of Robert Bear illustrate the strength of pressures to conform in the Mennonite church:
"I should have known how submissive the church had [my wife] to do its bidding out of fear of losing 'unity' with the one 'pure' body, for her to turn so completely against a husband she had lived with for thirteen years." R. BEAR, supra note 5, at 38.
" See M. PENTON, APOCALYPSE DELAYED: THE STORY OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES

1. Harm to Family Relationships

Shunning severs all contact between members of the group and the outcast.
1 The effect of shunning often depends upon the shunned person's relationship with the group. To the member who is a relatively recent convert having minimal economic ties to the group, shunning may mean only the loss of a few close friends.
2 Conversely, for the member who was born into the sect or has an extensive social or economic commitment to the group, shunning can cause much greater harm.

The acts of which Paul complained included one occasion when a close childhood friend told Paul, "I can't speak to you. You are disfellowshipped." Id. at 887. On another occasion, Paul attended a Tupperware party at the home of a Witness only to be informed that the church elders had instructed the congregation not to speak to her.

When Paul voluntarily left the Jehovah's Witnesses, there was no express sanction for withdrawing from the group; not until six years later did the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses rule that disassociated members were to be shunned.


The Paul court's holding that state common law torts always impose an unconstitutional burden upon religious exercise, was unwarranted.
In Paul, the Ninth Circuit fell prey to a distortion precisely opposite from the one that confronts courts dealing with an individual's free exercise claim in the statutory context.
20 The individual plaintiff who asserts her free exercise claim against a large bureaucracy capable of justifying almost any action in terms of sweeping governmental interests runs the risk of appearing to be a troublemaker.
12 In the shunning context, however, these roles are reversed; the disgruntled former member with dubious-sounding claims of intangible emotional harm confronts a unified church bureaucracy wielding the twin-edged sword of scriptural mandate and constitutional protection.
In reality, shunning cases almost always involve good-faith disputes over religious doctrine.
It is the difference of opinion on religious issues that compels the former member to leave the church or the church to excommunicate her.
22 Both parties to the dispute invariably act according to the dictates of their respective views of religion.

If a court recognizes a cause of action for the former member, it burdens the free exercise of the group's faith.
When families are involved however, or economic interests are at stake, a blanket refusal to recognize a cause of action for the former member goes too far the other way.
The former member is effectively foreclosed from changing her beliefs or taking issue with church authorities, while, under Paul, the church is free to fashion a suitable "sanction" retroactively

and Paul, (both the church and the individual changed their positions on issues of conscience, but only the church's free exercise rights were protected).

See, e.g., Paul, 819 F.2d at 876 (plaintiff withdrew from church because she disputed the disfellowshipping of her parents and was prohibited from discussing this feeling with other members)

CONCLUSION




This Comment has adopted an approach to religious shunning that has never been used in a court of law.
The approach advocated by this Comment, however, is very simple: when religious groups shun their members, more is at stake than the religious freedom of the group.
Each member of the group has free exercise rights at least as compelling as the group that shuns them.

The test of Sherbert v. Verner' 75 should be applied with this guiding principle in mind.
When courts ignore the free exercise rights of individuals and look only at the religious claims of groups, they elevate the group's religion over the individual's religion.
This is a dangerous path to follow. It gives religious groups virtually unfettered coercive power over their members and former members and blocks dissent and doctrinal development.
 +3 / -0
DT
DT 15 hours ago
That is a fascinating article. I have seen some of those arguments debated on this forum, but it was great to see a thorough and scholarly discussion of these issues.


I think that part of the problem is that it is much easier for a court to dismiss a case based on the idea of preserving the rights of a religious organization than to interfere in the interest of preserving the legal rights of the individual.



It would take a clever lawyer to overcome that hurdle, but I could see it happen in certain shunning cases if the lawyer puts the proper emphasis on individual rights.



I'm not religious, but I believe in the value of personal religious liberties. I resent that the courts have so consistently favored the rights of organizations over the rights of individuals. The result is that if a person tries to exercise his freedom of religion by joining a religion, then he must surrender some his rights to the religion itself, according to the way the courts have been deciding these kinds of cases.



It makes little difference if the religion is moderate and tolerant. The religion can arbitrarily change its policies and the courts will be unlikely to intervene if this harms the members or interferes with their right to leave freely.



I also think it's necessary to distinguish between a person's right to shun and the enforcement of shunning policies by church leaders. I don't think the courts should interfere with personal shunning, but there should be a legal remedy if someone uses his influence to compel others to shun. So an elder, for example, should be free to shun a former member, but if he sits on a judicial committee and punishes a current member for associating with a former member, then he should be held liable if his actions can be shown to interfere with the rights of others.

 +1 / -0

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Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
What Jehovah's Witnesses believe and why they do what they do
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faithnomore
2
Science vs Religion - All in the brain? New study...
by faithnomore in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 4 hours ago
maybe they can't help it?.

http://www.natureworldnews.com/articles/20365/20160325/science-vs-religion-brain-neural-networks-faith-reason-religious-non-religious.htm.

http://phys.org/news/2016-03-conflict-science-religion-lies-brains.html.

Skedaddle
faithnomore
2 hours ago
cofty
2
Evolution is a Fact #33 - A Tale about Tails
by cofty in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 7 hours ago
humans are classified as apes.. apes don't have tails.. except when they do.. we used to have tails.

i don't mean "we" as a species; i mean you and i as individuals.

we all had tails.. embryologists divide the development of a human embryo into 23 "carnegie stages" based on multiple physical features.

atomant
cofty
6 hours ago
Giordano
5
A fresh look at Shunning
by Giordano in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 14 hours ago
i have always been opposed to the practice of shunning especially for simple mistakes, especially when someone questions the 'truth' or the gb.

or elects to speak to a shunned family member or close friend.

or violates the blood ban.. even as a practicing jw i was uncomfortable with shunning.. an article caught my attention today on ritual sacrifice.

berrygerry
stuckinarut2
Fisherman
an hour ago
Willie647
8
After death
by Willie647 in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 15 hours ago
i'm not a born in but my parents became jws when i was about 3 years old.

i left at 18 after i was accused of having sex with my future wife.

truth is we hadn't done anything remotely close.

stuckinarut2
Crazyguy
Pete Zahut
5 hours ago
Terry
5
IS DOUBT always an indication of moral failure---FAITH vs. DOUBT?
by Terry in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 16 hours ago
is doubt always an indication of moral failure-- faith vs. doubt?.

human survival depends upon a rigorous balance between perception and the means of testing first impressions.

nature’s own test is that of eater and eaten.. inside the food chain, predators blend with their surrounding habitat.

ttdtt
Finkelstein
Terry
9 hours ago
prologos
23
Wt "study" Participation, is it a "True Believer" Indication?-- or not?
by prologos in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 18 hours ago
in our congregation, the elders rarely comment.

the majority rarely comment, 2 sisters, vehemently, and often comment.

since in their case, it can not possibly be" teaching in the congregation", is participation in the wt "study"in general an affirmation of faith?

xjwsrock
stuckinarut2
prologos
6 hours ago
DATA-DOG
4
Richard C B, this ones for you.
by DATA-DOG in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 a day ago
this is not an attack, just answer the questions.

1) are you an active jw?

2) http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/275576/active-jws-can-you-defend-truth?page=1.

SecretSlaveClass
DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG
10 hours ago
defender of truth
2
Damned If You Do, Damned If You Don't: Religious Shunning and the free exercise clause
by defender of truth in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 a day ago
the following link is to a pdf file found on the penn law legal scholarship repository website.. " the penn law legal scholarship repository is the institutional repository of the university of pennsylvania law school.

its purpose is to collect and preserve the scholarly output of penn law.

http://scholarship.law.upenn.edu/.

defender of truth
DT
16 hours ago
Richard C B
18
Are you people the Watchtower?
by Richard C B in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 a day ago
×close are you people 'the watchtower'?.

no - we're an independent community site offering support for both current and former jehovah's witnesses and anyone else who has been affected by the beliefs, doctrines and practices of the jehovah's witness religion as governed by the watch tower bible and tract society (wtb&ts).. we are not affiliated with the wtb&ts in any way and we take your privacy and security very seriously doing our utmost to protect your identity and provide a friendly, tolerant and informative environment where you can ask questions, share information and make new friends.

membership is completely free and anonymous so why not join toda.

punkofnice
tim3l0rd
Vidiot
13 hours ago
Richard C B
73
organization obsesion
by Richard C B in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 a day ago
why are you guys so obsessed with organizations?

there has to be order in the world and organised people!

steve2
NeverKnew
SecretSlaveClass
9 hours ago
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"mum, i been naughty, i'm disfellowshipped."
by Sabin 2 days ago 21 Replies latest a day ago   jw friends
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Sabin
Sabin 2 days ago
So last night we get a phone call from our girl & she tells me the above. Turns out she has been D'ed for a month. We are the last one's to know about it. Infact she made me turn off the speaker phone so her dad wouldn't hear & i could tell him quietly later. Of course i wasnt about to let that happen cause i knew he would be great about it. Him not being a JW & all that. I'm going to stay with her for a bit & she 100% knew we would never shun her NEVER, yet she didn't want us to know. Brazen conduct, she got off with a boy, no intercourse but she has been putting herself in bad situations. LOL. She said to me "when i was pioneering, go out in the ministry, all the meetings & socializing i was lonely, now that i am D'ed i am not any more." So i replied "what does that tell you?" her "Satan is a bastard." she is completely defending the Borganization. I can't believe it. I don't know whether to laugh or cry. She is going to all the meetings, she wants back in. These people in this borg have treated her like shit, they have put her through so much, bullying, lies, ignoring her, excluding her, dropping her, & that is all before she got D'ed. Now they are love bombing her to get her back, she isnt being shunned, the elders are helping her. Anyone got an explanation for that? I think they are trying to get her back before she has a chance to find out anything about what is really going on in the borg. So i emailed a friend for advice, look at jwfacts, which i have done but she will not as it is considered apostate. We are so alike, passionate, so i'm worried i'm gonna blow it with my big gob, getting all emotional. My husband said she gonna go back i have to except it. So do you think they are taking a new approach now towards some of the young ones since the ARC or is there some other motive.
 +12 / -1
Pete Zahut
Pete Zahut 2 days ago

Before offering advice....how old is your Daughter? Am I correct in understanding that she is full on disfellowshipped and is not being shunned? Could it be that she was only publicly reproved and that's why people are love bombing her rather than avoiding her?

 +2 / -0
Sabin
Sabin 2 days ago
Early 20's, & yes she is disfellowshipped.
 +1 / -0
Sabin
Sabin 2 days ago
They have no issue with me going to stay with her. They said well that is your mum. i'm just not supposed to talk to her about spiritual stuff. Her sister who's husband is an elder is allowed to talk to her on the phone but no spiritual stuff. She said they have been amazing.
 +1 / -0
atomant
atomant 2 days ago
As far back as l can remember its been ok to talk to a disfellowshipped person especially family as long as its not about spiritual stuff.The shunning so often talked about on this site isnt as bad as its made out to be.

 +1 / -24
Pete Zahut
Pete Zahut 2 days ago


We are so alike, passionate, so i'm worried i'm gonna blow it with my big gob, getting all emotional. My husband said she gonna go back i have to except it.
From the sound of it, your husband may be right. It sounds like she's made up her mind and wants to go back. All you can do is let her know that no matter what direction she goes, you'll always be her Mom no matter what.
If she goes back and gets reinstated, it doesn't mean that's the end of the story. If she's reinstated, she can have the best of both worlds if she decides to fade someday.
Perhaps you can try some reverse psychology on her such as:
"I know you were quite lonely back when you when you considered yourself as doing better spiritually but if you think it's best to go back then of course I'll support your decision. There might be times when it will feel like your options are limited as far as meeting anyone and who knows how long this system will continue but if you've made up your mind to go back, that's your decision to make. I'm ok so long as you aren't being pressured or doing anything out of guilt or fear or that I will think poorly of you one way or the other."

As far as why she isn't being shunned, I'm baffled. As far as I know, this is highly unusual. They've said a lot lately about not even associating with DF'd family members unless absolutely necessary.

 +5 / -0
Sabin
Sabin 2 days ago
atomant, i have D'ed myself & yes i was treated really well. People in the cong cared about me, missed me & that didn't stop for years. The elders always made sure i had my mags, a seat at the hall, they spoke to me blah blah blah. I was however one of the lucky one's. Since living on the Gold coast i can assure you, the level of cruelty inflicted on ones even before they are D'ed is horrific. These one's wouldn't call an ambulance if they saw a D'ed person run down in front of them. I got the subtle death threat even when i was struggling to get to the hall. You need to read the Organized to do Jehovah's will book pg 158, they do this to kid's for f...k sake. If we are brought up in a good family then we can neglect to understand the feelings of one's that have been abused. The same goes for our experience's within the borg. People often make the mistake of not caring because it hasn't happened to them, so it doesn't matter then that it happens to someone else. The thing is it does matter doesn't it? or at least it should?
 +3 / -0
LisaRose
LisaRose 2 days ago

It's a cult. They are using fear, obligation and guilt to maintain control over your daughter. Her being disfellowshipped does not help her break free because by engaging in conduct they have convinced her is sinful she has become too filled with guilt to think rationally. This is what they do and how they maintain control. I strongly urge you to read Freedom of Mind: Helping Loved Ones Leave Controlling People, Cults, and Beliefs (2012) by Steve Hassan.
I haven't yet read this book, but I have read his first book. He has had success in helping people break free of this thinking. Going on about the many faults of the Watchtower will not work, she has been trained to see this as an attack by Satan, it just causes her to become fearful. Steve first tries to engage with people on a personal level and reach their non cult personality by talking about their life before the cult, or their hopes and dreams before the cult thinking took over. He uses family members to reach out to them and remind them of those important relationships. Maybe you could try asking her what she would do with her life if she wasn't a Jehovah's Witness. You could ask her what she thinks about those who have given their life to the religion because they thought Armageddon was so close and who now have nothing. You know your daughter and what her thoughts might be, what might be potential issues.

 +3 / -0
JRK
JRK 2 days ago

When you talk to her, tell whomever asks that it is "necessary family business." Tell them nothing more.
JK
 +2 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 2 days ago

The Fear Obligation and Guilt is strong within her sadly.
If an abused wife wants to run back to her abusive husband, how would we handle that? She has been dealt with in an abusive way by ones who are treating her improperly, yet she wants to go back? Poor girl is fulfilling the definition of an abused person in a toxic relationship.
She needs kind and considerate love to be helped to see things for what they really are.
 +2 / -0

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"mum, i been naughty, i'm disfellowshipped."
by Sabin 2 days ago 21 Replies latest a day ago   jw friends
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just fine
just fine 2 days ago

Atonement- are you kidding me???? You think shunning isn't as bad as some people on this board make it out to be......... Why don't you talk to one of my young relatives whose parents have done terrible things to him/her and haven't spoke to him/her since he/she was df'd. It's a terribly cruel thing to do to a young person. Hell I'm not even Df'd and my siblings haven't spoken to me in years.
Sabin - I hope your daughter can see tatt before she goes back.
 +3 / -0
azor
azor 2 days ago

Atomant. Tell that to my family who avoid me like the plague. I've been there for every one of my siblings and their children throughout my entire life.
I'm not DF'd or DA'd. Had a party for my son finishing his chemo treatment for leukemia and they didn't even respond to my open invite.
 +2 / -0
Sabin
Sabin 2 days ago

Lisa rose, i got the first book, brilliant read but had forgotten bout the 2nd. I'll get it. Thanks for the reminder.
JKR, yes that is a good idea i'll use that if anyone dares to speak to me.
you know what your supposed to do but in the moment emotions run away, i think that worries me more then anything. It is getting her to separate God from the Borg. That is what my husband reckons the biggest prob is. He said last night these idiots think if you speak against the WTBTS then you speak against God they have put the society above God, Jesus & the bible so rank & file follow what they say without question, without research, without even thought. I did that. I was an idiot & i'm no afraid to admit it.
 +3 / -0
Sabin
Sabin 2 days ago

Azor, that is horrible. What a wicked bunch. Flowers for you, & a hug.
 +2 / -0
brandnew
brandnew 2 days ago

Awwww sabin.......just do what you do.......and be a mom.
Hugs n stuff
 +2 / -0
atomant
atomant 2 days ago
All l said was its not as bad as made out.The shunning caper.Some shun more than others.Horses for courses.But yes they are a pack of shunners.Sorry if l upset anyone.lve given myself a kick in the back side.

 +2 / -0
Sabin
Sabin 2 days ago
Atomant no offense taken we all have different experiences & feel differently about them one day then another. No need to kick yourself.
 
Heaven
Heaven 2 days ago

I was never baptized and my JW family never talk to me except when someone dies. I guess that's considered 'necessary family matters'.

 
Vidiot
Vidiot 2 days ago

@ Sabin...
She didn't have sex with the guy, and they still DFed her? That's f**ked up.
I think it's pretty clear they don't want her around.
Maybe invite her to come stay with you guys for a while, explain that to her, and ask her why she would want to go where she isn't wanted.
 +1 / -0
Slidin Fast
Slidin Fast 2 days ago

The shunning so often talked about on this site isnt as bad as its made out to be.

There speaks someone without experience of shunning. Yes, it is as bad as is described. Don't kid yourself. It has obviously not happened to you.
 +1 / -0

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Topic Summary
so last night we get a phone call from our girl & she tells me the above.
turns out she has been d'ed for a month.
infact she made me turn off the speaker phone so her dad wouldn't hear & i could tell him quietly later.



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Chapter 2 of the Novel "New Boy"
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Didn't go to memorial this year
by silent 13 days ago
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by Freeandclear 2 months ago



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"mum, i been naughty, i'm disfellowshipped."
by Sabin 2 days ago 21 Replies latest a day ago   jw friends
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Vidiot
Vidiot 2 days ago


atomant - "The shunning so often talked about on this site isnt as bad as its made out to be."
Oh, really?
Go to your local BOE and tell them you no longer want to be a JW, and see what happens.
 +1 / -0
Giordano
Giordano a day ago

I think atomant may be referring to those of us who have so little interest in the JW beliefs and no close family or friends that being shunned is simply a none starter.
Or a person who decides that they have been wasting their time as a JW and can move on.
It's the family breakups....... being shunned by your own children or one's parents, marriages breaking up. Being old and alone

Than it can feel like torture.
 

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Topic Summary
so last night we get a phone call from our girl & she tells me the above.
turns out she has been d'ed for a month.
infact she made me turn off the speaker phone so her dad wouldn't hear & i could tell him quietly later.



Related Topics
new boy
Chapter 2 of the Novel "New Boy"
by new boy 7 days ago
MarkofCane
My Story "Act 2"
by MarkofCane 3 months ago
new boy
My Bethwl Experience Part 11
by new boy 3 months ago
silent
Didn't go to memorial this year
by silent 13 days ago
Freeandclear
My Story
by Freeandclear 2 months ago



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Last Night I was surrounded by Jehovah's Witnesses . . .
by Terry 2 days ago 14 Replies latest 15 hours ago   jw experiences
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Terry
Terry 2 days ago

Last night was the "body viewing" at the Funeral Home for the JW whose friendship and influence resulted in my getting baptised in 1963. We weren't just friends. We had a David & Jonathan Bromance :smile: No seriously, we loved each other dearly.
It's only in the last 2 years he shunned me. Before that, he would sneak behind the curtain of stealth, so to speak, and we'd sit for hours each and every week chatting, reminiscing and sometimes arguing about the truth about the "Truth."
That ended, as I said, a couple of years ago and it was probably partially my fault. I had posted excerpts, thoughts, and reports on our conversations without naming him explicitly. After all, his name is John and that's pretty anonymous. But--I was wrong! Someone saw my name and the name John and put 2+2 together and came up with Johnny Santa Cruz.
He was ratted out!
To save himself (and his family's reputation, I suppose) he fabricated a reason for chatting with me. It was a reverse on Theocratic Warfare Strategy, you might say.
His front was this: I had contacted him (wrong!) and asked if he'd help me come back into the Organization (Wrong!).
He might have gotten away with that if I hadn't written details of the specifics of these conversations! When pinned down, he resorted to lies. Apparently, I was just a lying apostate making the whole thing up!
You can imagine how easy to believe that was! But, can you imagine how heartbroken I was?
I became deeply offended that he "missed his moment" to step out and step up. Well, I became embittered that my oldest and dearest friend saved his own skin.
It goes deeper than that. I won't justify my feelings except to make this statement:
I had my 'integrity' tested as a JW by going to prison in 1967. I feel like I showed what I was made of. But what about Johnny? This was his moment of integrity. In my thinking (angry as I was) I thought, "What a hypocrite for him to be holier than thou while lying about me."
Anyway, if this strikes you as pettiness on my part, I'll have no problem agreeing with you.
Suffice it to say, I still loved Johnny and thought about him almost every day.
_________
Johnny worked at Mt. Olivet Funeral Home as one of the Funeral Directors. Ironically, that is where his "viewing" took place.
I was dreading it.
First of all, who wants to see their best friend dead in a box?
Secondarily, I would be surrounded by JW's who have known me for 30 to 40 years.
In their minds, they have remained true to Jehovah while I got my sorry ass kicked out, and now I'm a mentally diseased Apostate.
But I would not go A.W.O.L. for the world. Johnny was my friend and I simply felt compelled to attend!
I was in for a shock!
________________
Before the evening was over, a dozen familiar faces from the past had not only hugged me and expressed joy at seeing me, we had long conversations filled with sweet memories and no recriminations whatsoever. I was wary at first. Were they strategically "love-bombing" me?
I soon dismissed that notion. You can feel when you're loved--you really can. This wasn't phony.
Johnny's widow I've known since she was 15 years old. She told me how much she loved me and how Johnny had kept repeating for the last two years, "I want to talk to Terry so bad. . ."
But he dared not risk it. He had been solemnly warned, you see.
I developed a sense or intuition about what was going on. This is my conjecture.
These folks, these JW's have been in it to win it for at minimum 40+ years. They have seen all the crazy changes over and over again. They have, no doubt, privately whispered amongst themselves, "What is going on with this religion?" But, having sunk so much of their life into this 'investment' they couldn't bring themselves to leave now. It is the Gambler's Fallacy of sunk costs and doubling down when you are on a losing streak!
While none of them said so, it was obvious to heart and mind, these JW's are weary but firm. They take everything with a grain of salt. And consequently. . . in this private family viewing of my best friend, there was a conscience truce.
We all silently agreed to be what we once were: beloved humans sharing a common bond--in this instance--it was Johnny rather than the Watchtower doctrine.



_____________
The funeral is this Saturday--tomorrow morning at 9:30 A.M.
I will attend. Afterward, we are all gathering at Johnny's house to memorialize him with an exchange of "Johnny stories' most of which are larger-than-life but genuinely true.
I left the Viewing lighter than air. My heart was filled with more happiness than I've experienced in many years. It was a semi-fiction, I acknowledge as far as the "bond" because--let us face it--the Organization will not tolerate friendship between active JW's and Apostates. It is chalk and cheese with a penalty attached.
But, for those two hours. . . I was in paradise at last.
 +17 / -0
JRK
JRK 2 days ago

It is quite obvious that they "love bombed" you. You may have felt you were "in paradise" for a few hours, but the reality is that nothing has changed. Let's see the next installment from the funeral talk and find out the conclusion to this story.
JK
 +0 / -3
kairos
kairos 2 days ago

I'm glad you kept it together. I know myself well enough.

I will attend no JW functions... anywhere.
Glad you are getting closure.
 +1 / -0
Sabin
Sabin 2 days ago
Terry that is nice, i'm glad you were treated well. There are some wonderful JW who truly don't know what is going on or no so fully. Yes you had a right to feel hurt, it's no petty i think. John also had a right to be upset with you saying private stuff without his giving consent. He was caught of guard maybe shocked at the time. You can let it all go now though & be left with the happy memories of your friendship.
 +4 / -0
fastJehu
fastJehu 2 days ago

Terry
.... But, for those two hours. . . I was in paradise at last.




They call it "spiritual paradise"
 
fastJehu
fastJehu 2 days ago

Terry
.... But, for those two hours. . . I was in paradise at last.




They call it "spiritual paradise"
 
Terry
Terry 2 days ago

I posted this on Friday and it didn't appear here until Monday. That is some traffic jam. At the time, it looked as though it was not uploading, but I guess there is simply a long queue into which it goes.
This chapter in my life is now closed and I'm finally relieved. When you're around these people it is easy to become confused about them. It is that tiny hidden compartment inside their mind where they are controlled which offsets everything else.
I've often said it reminds me of those ancient seafaring maps where the known explored areas end and the unexplored and mysterious begins. The words "Here there be dragons" would appear.
I think it applies to JW's too.



 +1 / -0
WingCommander
WingCommander 2 days ago

Those same people that gave you such "warm fuzzies" at the funeral, if you saw them again next week would shun you like you are a rapid apostate dog. They are in a cult, plain and simple.

 +1 / -1
Ding
Ding 2 days ago

JWs tell themselves they are following God, not men.
Then they feel they have to lie to men for fear of what they might do to them if they tell the truth.
It's truly sad what this "spiritual paradise" does to people...

 +1 / -0
MarkofCane
MarkofCane 2 days ago
Sorry about your friend Terry. I'm glad you felt a sense of elation seeing old friends and being able to attend a close friends funeral. But feeling's aside they are the very same people that discarded you when you needed them, they are the very same people who crossed the road to avoid you, they are the very same people who will ignore and shun you tomorrow. Part in good terms but you know where they stand.
 

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Last Night I was surrounded by Jehovah's Witnesses . . .
by Terry 2 days ago 14 Replies latest 15 hours ago   jw experiences
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Londo111
Londo111 2 days ago
I think that JWs as individuals are naturally more yielding and about the shunning rules during these circumstances and their authentic non-cult self can more easily surface. And of course, they are hoping that by being nice, they will win you back, but might be sincere in doing so. After all, in their mind, your everlasting future is at stake.
 +2 / -0
FayeDunaway
FayeDunaway 2 days ago

Sometimes, especially in tragedy, their humanity comes out. Johnny kept his humanity most of his life, until he was backed into a corner (no thanks to you).
I really like you, Terry. Thanks for sharing this with us. It's been real.
 +1 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 2 days ago

I find going to anything where there are JWS in a social environment such as a funeral or weddings a theater of pretentiousness.
They tend to evaluate your character solely upon if your activity as a JWS or how strong you are in your participation of being a JWS., that's most focused part of their evaluation. All accolades are forwarded to men who become elders or ones who are pioneering, people who left the JWS on the other hand are just, tch tch evil and worthless, soon to destroyed by God Yahweh.

They seem to show not real personal concern but out of programmed indoctrination to reconvert you back and be complacently judgmental upon where and what you are doing exclusively for the organization alone. 

 +1 / -0
Terry
Terry 17 hours ago

I've had a couple of days to reflect. What stands out is this. A chill comes over a naturally warm and expressive JW when surrounded by other JW's in any situation in which they can be judged and snitched out.
That says it all. It says they are aware they are amongst informers. It says they understand their personal free expression is severely dangerous under those circumstances. But it also says something tragic: they choose not to extricate themselves. They have made a transaction to diminish the human capacity to be real for a few promises and a false sense of community.
Hello North Korea!
 +3 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 15 hours ago

A chill comes over a naturally warm and expressive JW when surrounded by other JW's in any situation in which they can be judged and snitched out.
Yes so true, the JWS religion is one of being under a constant magnifying glass, this is even more pushed to the extreme at social engagements.
Placing a muzzle over people as to whom they are allowed to talk to is part of its deep intensive corruption .
 

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Topic Summary
last night was the "body viewing" at the funeral home for the jw whose friendship and influence resulted in my getting baptised in 1963. we weren't just friends.
we had a david & jonathan bromance :) no seriously, we loved each other dearly.. it's only in the last 2 years he shunned me.
before that, he would sneak behind the curtain of stealth, so to speak, and we'd sit for hours each and every week chatting, reminiscing and sometimes arguing about the truth about the "truth.".



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by A.proclaimer 3 months ago
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Jehovah’s Witnesses are Taught to Lie but to then Lie about Lying
by Terry 8 days ago
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by AndersonsInfo 2 months ago
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GOODBYE my oldest and dearest (JW) FRIEND
by Terry 5 days ago
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MY OLDEST FRIEND (JW) is DEAD
by Terry 6 days ago



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Why do so many people believe in psychic powers?
by The Rebel 2 days ago 16 Replies latest 18 hours ago   jw friends
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The Rebel
The Rebel 2 days ago

As an ex-witness I have enjoyed becoming open to other people's views and understanding. Therefore this O.P is on the subject of psychic powers. My own exsperience I can't explain rationally, but as a child many times I had dreams that came true in detail, yet many may explain it away as Deja vu. So what is the difference between heart-felt intuition and confirmation basis? ( If only I had written the dreams down, before they came true then I would have the confirmation basis)
Anyway I am sure most posters have exsperienced psychic powers of some nature, and I would be interested in those posters providing examples of :-
A) There psychic exsperience
B) How they rationalize them,
C) And any confirmation basis that can be provided that it really was a psychic exsperience.
Admittadley it's not always easy to decide what a psychic exsperience is, for me cases of mental illnesses such as schizophrenia, where people hear voices, this is not experiencing psychic phenomena. Also the taking of LSD or other drugs which may produce hallucination I do not consider a physic exsperience. however I have no problem with posters who may have different views when it comes to psychic exsperience.
Thank you for your comments.
The Rebel.
 +1 / -0
The Rebel
The Rebel 2 days ago

I would just like to add I believe somethings are not explainable in normal terms, somethings can not be explained, I have been in a house where a poltergeist was supposed to be. Now I am not pretending to account for it exactly but for no apparent reason a window was smashed in the kitchen. I didn't witness the window being broken, but both my wife and I heard voices that were not the radio, nor T.V and we were alone in the house. We rationalized it away, but I was glad to leave the place, and looking back I can't explain it away as an ordinary occurrence.
The Rebel.
 +2 / -0
cofty
cofty 2 days ago

I think you will find the answer among these options...



 +2 / -0
The Rebel
The Rebel 2 days ago

Thanks for the link Cofty, which having read it seemed to dismiss heart felt intuition against rational thinking. However I am more interested in posters direct personal exsperience of psychic phenomena than links that try to rationalize that experience away.
I would add that direct personal experience should be dealt with respectfully, and good examples and explanations of why this was a psychic clarified.
The Rebel
 
cofty
cofty 2 days ago
The plural of anecdote is not data.
 
The Rebel
The Rebel 2 days ago

Cofty: "The plural of anecdote is not data"
The Rebel. " Nonetheless I believe anecdotes are valuable to the scientific process, even if they are not conclusions. More importantly I hope we both agree the only way anything can be proven is to THINK, with no holds barred? I guess that includes anecdotes?
The Rebel.
 +2 / -1
zeb
zeb 2 days ago
"Please pay attention. All those who believe in Psychokenisis raise my right hand."..Sir Ronnie Corbett.
 +3 / -0
The Rebel
The Rebel 2 days ago

Zeb, I love Ronnie Corbett, but he would never have wanted to become " Sir" Ronnie Corbett unless they knighted " Ronnie Barker" also.
Ronnie Corbett: "And now, it's good night from me..."
Ronnie Barker: " and it's good night from him"
........ Reading the News.......
Ronnie Barker: And Solomon F. Potts , Americas most persistent practical joker, was buried today. He's not dead, it's just the neighbors getting their own back.
The Rebel.
 
SecretSlaveClass
SecretSlaveClass 2 days ago
Because life's realities are either not enough or too much for them. Too many humans want to believe in the "other", something transcendent. It's all an emotional search for hope beyond reality.
 +2 / -0
punkofnice
punkofnice 2 days ago
I have never had anything happen in my life that makes me believe in the psychic or supernatural. If it exists, I never saw it. Therefore, I have nothing personal to base any experiences on.
 

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Why do so many people believe in psychic powers?
by The Rebel 2 days ago 16 Replies latest 18 hours ago   jw friends
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The Rebel
The Rebel 2 days ago

Secretslaveclass..." Life's realities are either not enough or too much for them......."
The Rebel : So we believe in dinosaurs because the evidence is everywhere, yet do you not agree, not so long ago that would have been a wired belief?
The Rebel.
 
SecretSlaveClass
SecretSlaveClass 2 days ago

Rebel:
Had people made claim there were once these massive animals that roamed the planet without evidence, I most certainly would not have bought the stories. I don't look for answers that make me feel better or comfortable or astonish me. I reflect on the evidence and if it's there I accept the facts and sometimes those facts happen to be astonishing. What makes me feel comfortable is knowing it's okay to admit mistakes and change my thought process. What makes me feel better is knowing I didn't swallow unsubstantiated claims and behave like an emotional, irrational fool. Nothing makes me feel more ashamed of myself than behaving irrationally.
 +2 / -0
The Rebel
The Rebel 2 days ago

Secretslaveclass, thanks for the reply, I agree with everything you said about being skeptic to psychic phenonomen without proof. Nonetheless I gave personal exsperiences of my individual exsperiences, and I put those exsperiences on the line, hoping and assuming surely on this board posters would be able to add similar psychic exsperiences if I wasn't a " deluded Moron. So far I appear to be a " deluded Moron"
The Rebel.
 +1 / -1
Xanthippe
Xanthippe 2 days ago

You won't get any takers Rebel. Some have tried on here In the past but the replies are always, that's anecdotal, your imagination or if it was true someone would have won the million dollars from James Randi.
As you say until it can be proved by scientists it is only a belief so I keep my fascinating experiences to myself as do many others because, unsurprisingly, people are allergic to 'beliefs' here. I do think in most societies, however, it's quite acceptable to mention an interesting and unprovable experience in a relaxed setting.
 +3 / -0
SecretSlaveClass
SecretSlaveClass 2 days ago

Rebel:
In no way are you a deluded moron. To the contrary I think you're highly intelligent. I merely offered you insight into my way of looking at the supernatural. When I was a kid my mother convinced me demons were real so I often "saw" demons which would terrify me (thanks for that, oh loving JW mother). Thankfully my dad convinced me to challenge my irrational fears early (about seven years old). When I "saw" a demon, instead of hiding under the covers or calling out to my parents, I would get up and walk towards this "demon" and lo-and-behold, it wasn't really there! This gave me the strength to face my fear of the dark and intentionally go outside in the dark and investigate every snap, crackle and pop I heard and approach every shadowy silhouette I imagined to be a monster, demon, dangerous animal or boogeyman.
I owe my dad my life of freedom because ever since, I have forced myself to face up to every fear I have ever faced, whether imagined or real.
 +2 / -0
FayeDunaway
FayeDunaway 2 days ago
I'm not the least bit psychic but I have had a supernatural experience involving a dead relative, and have heard a good and reputable friend tell me her experience involving her murdered mother. I am a Christian and don't know exactly how it fits into my own theology, but I do believe some worried spirits stay here until they find peace to move on.
 +2 / -0
C0ntr013r
C0ntr013r 18 hours ago

Thanks for the link Cofty, which having read it seemed to dismiss heart felt intuition against rational thinking.
"heart felt intuition" Is basically a quick assessment by your subconscious, which mostly relies on your feelings and experiences.
Intuition in an area you have much experience can be a really good way to asses something fast and with high accuracy.
Intuition in a field you have little expiration in is a good way to trick yourself, thinking the intuition is equally accurate.
It is not very reliable because it faces problems in more complex matters, that usually requires more complex and deliberate thinking.
 +1 / -0

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Topic Summary
as an ex-witness i have enjoyed becoming open to other people's views and understanding.
therefore this o.p is on the subject of psychic powers.
my own exsperience i can't explain rationally, but as a child many times i had dreams that came true in detail, yet many may explain it away as deja vu.



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Why I quit the Watchtower, and why I could return.
by The Rebel 2 days ago 3 Replies latest 2 days ago   jw friends
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The Rebel
The Rebel 2 days ago

The wicked rat race of the Watchtower claimed another victim. Despite conducting 5 bible studies, and distributing thousands of magazines, I decided the pressure of being super pious was just to heavy for me, and I decided to just cool it. This is when I discovered the business is full of people who are " not very nice" . I won't mention any names, but let's just say the Watchtower heavies were soon around to see me.
Elder " we have missed you at the meetings, is there something wrong with you?
The Rebel." I recent that question, there's nothing wrong with me, I am not spiritual weak, I just happen to need a rest. Do you mind?
Elder. " While you are resting, Armaggedon is just around the corner...."
The Rebel: " I think you have a BAD pair of binoculars?
Elder " The only binoculars I need are Jehovers magazines , they are perfect in every sentence, and here is the latest copy"
The Rebel. " Thanks, Oh this is an interesting STUDY article " Why Sisters don't wear Sanitex Rubber Body Stockings" and the following article " Do Jehovers Witnesses believe in holding hands before marriage? You win I will be at the meeting for that Watchtower study"
Elder. " Are you sure"
The Rebel. "Definitely"
So yes it's true, under certain circumstances I could set foot in the Kingdom Hall again.
The Rebel.
 +2 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 2 days ago

Somehow they feel it is their right to involve themselves in your personal decisions....
The very meaning of "appropriate boundaries" is lost on them!
 
Heaven
Heaven 2 days ago

Back in 2010 I set foot inside my Dad's former Kingdom Hall to take him to a 'memorial', aka funeral, of one of his JW friends. It gave me the willies/creeps. Couldn't wait to leave. The local pedophile was there too.

This is probably the last or next to last time I'll ever set foot inside one.

 +1 / -0
The Rebel
The Rebel 2 days ago

Stuckinarut2 " they feel it is there right to involve themselves in your personal decisions....."
The Rebel. So true, the thinking of the Elders is " How do you add value" to the Watchtower, not how can the watchtower add value to you. So there is no room for " I" in the Watchtower organisation.
The Rebel.
 

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Twilight and other banned media
by purrpurr 2 days ago 12 Replies latest 14 hours ago   jw friends
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purrpurr
purrpurr 2 days ago

Thanks to online media of movies and books I've recently been watching the twilight series. issues of quality aside I enjoyed it enough. I mostly wanted to see what the fuss was about and have the fun of seeing a movie that was banned from the platform when it came out.
I've also been watching the hunger games(loved it) and the divergent series.
Any recommendations of further banned movies and books?
P's. Team Jacob, Edward Cullen is an abusive asshole
 +1 / -0
Darkknight757
Darkknight757 2 days ago

The wife and I enjoy "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" series on Netflix. The offshoot show "Angel" isn't too bad either.
My wife also just got done watching the entire "Harry Potter" series of movies. It's something she has always wanted to do but felt guilty doing it.
 +1 / -0
neat blue dog
neat blue dog 2 days ago
Who says the hunger games are banned? I know a regular pioneer who post excitedly about the series on Facebook.
 
purrpurr
purrpurr 2 days ago
Hunger games, a story about a televised fight to the death by children? Seriously you think?
 
FayeDunaway
FayeDunaway 2 days ago

Reading Harry Potter was the first unwitnessy thing I ever did. I read them to my kids and would recommend anyone else do the same. I realized it's not a celebration of evil, it's good vs. evil in a creative way.
Purrpurr I was really, really into the twilight books and didn't consider them naughty. The books are still kind of juvenile but way better than the movies. And I was team Edward and don't see where you are coming from.
 
BlackWolf
BlackWolf 2 days ago
The hunger games isn't banned by witnesses and neither is lord of the rings, but Harry Potter and twilight are. Isn't that silly!
 +1 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot 2 days ago

I watched and read all the fantasy and sci-fi I wanted growing up.
I didn't care much if JW loyalists disapproved.
 +1 / -0
Heaven
Heaven a day ago

Hey Wolfie, back when Harry Potter came out my Dad was getting a little concerned about his adult children going to these movies. I was around 38 years old when the first one came out.

I looked at him and said "Dad, it's a movie. It isn't real."
He seemed to relax a bit after that.

 
JW_Rogue
JW_Rogue a day ago
Watch "The Giver" with a JW and check out the awkwardness as they notice the similarities between the Utopian society and WT.
 +1 / -0
LeeT
LeeT a day ago

Is The Village banned?
Given the parallels between the village and the borg I think it's a good film to sneak on any witness.



 +1 / -0

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Twilight and other banned media
by purrpurr 2 days ago 12 Replies latest 14 hours ago   jw friends
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ttdtt
ttdtt 18 hours ago

I had a friend how loved Lord of the Rings - and moved to a different congregation when the movies were coming out.
He was NOT allowed to go and see them (as an adult) because the ELDERS felt it was spiritistic. They made the decision for everyone.
 
SecretSlaveClass
SecretSlaveClass 18 hours ago
Same old story. Create superstitious fear and hysteria (Satan and his demons) amongst people then tell them you have the only means of combating them. With shamans it's a talisman, with the WTS it's the GB's decrees.
 
Doubtfully Yours
Doubtfully Yours 14 hours ago

I have a weakness for movies about vampires and werewolves. Love, love, love them!!!
Another area in which the WTBTS can kiss my big brown ass.
DY
 

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Topic Summary
thanks to online media of movies and books i've recently been watching the twilight series.
issues of quality aside i enjoyed it enough.
i mostly wanted to see what the fuss was about and have the fun of seeing a movie that was banned from the platform when it came out.



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Special talk outline or highlights?
by stephanie61092 2 days ago 9 Replies latest a day ago   jw friends
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stephanie61092
stephanie61092 2 days ago

Hello,
I apologize if this has already been covered but I've actually had a really busy, fun weekend with friends AND family and i haven't been online.
That being said, I missed the special talk yesterday. Does anyone have the outline or highlights of the talk? I would really like to take notes and have them. Just as a little insurance if my JC tried to call me out on not attending.
Thank you in advance!
Steph
 +1 / -0
sir82
sir82 2 days ago

"Special" talk is scheduled for April 10.
But even if you don't attend, you still won't be "missing" anything.

 +2 / -0
freddo
freddo 2 days ago

@sir82
"Round our way" (UK) it was April 3rd ... as in second weekend after the memorial.
 +1 / -0
Listener
Listener 2 days ago

This might be of some help.
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/4d7okn/special_talk_rebuttal_how_can_we_trust_the_bible/

 +1 / -0
MarkofCane
MarkofCane 2 days ago
It was yesterday April 3rd. My wife comes home from meeting and says " you know you missed the special talk?" I said "wasn't it just an over zealous recruiting session for the memorial victims?" She just rolled her eyes at me.
 +4 / -0
BluesBrother
BluesBrother 2 days ago

Actually the special talk was not "Can We Trust The Bible" ... It was "Are You On The Road To Everlasting Life" ....at least, that is what we heard.
This link has it :
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/448310001/2016-special-talk-you-on-road-everlasting-life?page=1&size=10

 +2 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 2 days ago

This talk outline, as with all previous "special talk" outlines will now just be included in the rotating roster of regularly redelivered talks each week.
 +1 / -0
sir82
sir82 2 days ago


My wife comes home from meeting and says " you know you missed the special talk?"
Perfect reply would have been:
"Well, I wouldn't say I missed it, dear."

 +6 / -0
daringhart13
daringhart13 a day ago
LOL LOL as someone that has given several 'special' talks, I can tell you that you didn't miss a thing.....
 +2 / -0
baker
baker a day ago
they actually talked about a real person for at least 10 minutes named Stephen Mcdowell, who left the streets of LA to go to Bethel. Not like in the WT where it talks about CHANTEL, who live in France, orJoel who lives in Australia orOctavia who lives in Britain, or Marco wh lives in Italy, none who can be googled or verified if they really were quoted correctly...
 +1 / -0

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Amazing Growth! Jehovah Is Blessing The Preaching Work!
by Divergent 4 days ago 29 Replies latest 2 days ago   jw friends
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Divergent
Divergent 4 days ago

Today's text:




Saturday, April 2

The little one will become a thousand.—Isa. 60:22.

Perhaps we live in an area where there are few Witnesses or where we do not see a lot of immediate results in our preaching work. Yet, remembering that the Kingdom arrangement can overcome all obstacles will strengthen us to endure. For example, when Brother Edwin Skinner arrived in India in 1926, there were only a handful of Witnesses in that country. Initially, there was little progress, and the work was described as “hard going.” But he kept on preaching and saw how the Kingdom message overcame great obstacles. In 2013 there were over 37,000 active Witnesses in India, with over 108,000 attending the Memorial. In the same year that Brother Skinner arrived in India, the work had just started in Zambia. Now over 170,000 publishers preach there, and 763,915 attended the Memorial in 2013. This means that 1 in every 18 persons in Zambia attended. What amazing growth! w1412/15 1:8, 9



Well, not that amazing - considering that JW's number just over 8 million in a world populated by 7.5 BILLION people!
 +4 / -0
jookbeard
jookbeard 4 days ago
not quite 8 billion yet but their efforts of well over 100 years of advertising their crap has really yielded a pathetic return, its over 7000 hours to convert one single recruit ! 37k jw's in a country of well over a billion, probably less in China and another billion plus inhabitants, that is NOT amazing growth
 +2 / -0
Divergent
Divergent 4 days ago
Correction made. It was supposed to read "more than 7 billion" instead of 8. And yes, 37,000 out of a country of more than a billion is nothing to shout about. So little growth in almost a century. They should be hanging their heads in shame instead!
 +3 / -0
Lieu
Lieu 4 days ago
Memorial attendance isn't growth, it's curiosity.
 +5 / -0
Lieu
Lieu 4 days ago
2 billion for India ... they rival China in population.
 
Pete Zahut
Pete Zahut 4 days ago
Do we know if the "growth" has occurred among actual East Indians or is it among westerners who for one reason or another are living in India?

 
kairos
kairos 4 days ago

Didn't the branch just reduce the scope of the work in India?
Hmmmm...
 
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 4 days ago

By virtue of exclaiming the numbers, the increase in growth for the last 100 years it would appear that Jehovah isn't blessing this organization, considering the many false doctrines according to the bible that would make practical sense.
Jehovah wouldn't back or support commercially inspired corrupt religoius charlatans.

 +2 / -0
alcyone
alcyone 3 days ago

When JW's talk about India they forget to mention Seventh Day Adventists growth
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_India
1.5 million members! i understand the counting method is different, but anyway... And SDAs were founded in the same time as the JWs. To talk about the growth and to skip discussion of similar groups is pointless.

 +2 / -0
LostGeneration
LostGeneration 3 days ago

If size matters, then Catholics and Islamists are the true religion
 +3 / -0

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Amazing Growth! Jehovah Is Blessing The Preaching Work!
by Divergent 4 days ago 29 Replies latest 2 days ago   jw friends
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Diogenesister
Diogenesister 3 days ago

Lieu Memorial attendance isn't growth, it's curiosity.
Yes, and politeness of course..they recieve an invitation, after all.....in a country that is naturally respectful of religious belief.
Doesn't mean for one second they intend to convert.
 +2 / -0
JW GoneBad
JW GoneBad 3 days ago

"What amazing growth!"...my ass!
Genuine interest among the rank and file is seriously waning. Our congregation has 160 publishers but meeting attendance is usually from 90 to 100. Where are the other 60 to 70? Nationwide...worldwide interest in the Jehovah's Witness is on the decline.
Jehovah's Witnesses have become a has-been, flunkee movement!
 +3 / -0
pepperheart
pepperheart 3 days ago
If growth means closing 15 branch heasdquaters around the world and kicking out 1000s of people who used to work at bethels around the world and not printing 50 million magazines a month worldwide then sounds a very strange growth to me.

 +2 / -0
OneGenTwoGroups
OneGenTwoGroups 3 days ago

"the door is narrow"
"the small one will become a thousand"
Please pick your opposing Scriptural point to fit whichever frikkin point you need to make.
Your Welcome,
WTBTS
 
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 3 days ago

You mean growth in financial gains by cutting back on literature being published and retrieving a bunch special pioneers from service.

.......and not to forget the 1 billion US the Watchtower Corporation is going gain, as its in the process of selling off its main property holdings in Brooklyn New York
Jehovah's bank accounts are truly being blessed.
http://l7.alamy.com/zooms/d1396f2ae1b74a8795468ae7e39ede68/raking-up-american-cash-money-cn7acp.jpg
 +1 / -0
dropoffyourkeylee
dropoffyourkeylee 3 days ago
2 baptised today out of 860 attendance in Ohio
 +4 / -0
jwfacts
jwfacts 3 days ago
Funny they still speak about growth when these days it is no where near as impressive as the past. Even the figure they show about Zambia is nothing special. " This means that 1 in every 18 persons in Zambia attended." There are also 1:18 Seventh Day Adventists in Zambia, and 1:5 Catholics. When I first read 1:18, it seems amazing compared to the 1:330 in Australia, but really it is just a figure that many other religions can claim as well.
 +2 / -0
atomant
atomant 3 days ago
jookbeard said 7000 hours to make one recruit.l;ll add 30 minute hearing to disfellowship.All the hard work for nuffin.

 +3 / -0
ScenicViewer
ScenicViewer 3 days ago

According to Wikipedia there are 1,251,695,584 people in India as of July, 2015. What percentage of the population do the 37,000 Jehovah's Witnesses amount to?
0.002956%. That's slightly less than 3/1000ths of 1%. Such a tiny little fraction. It's much closer to 0% than it is to 1%.
That means every Witness needs to be preaching to 33,830 people regularly to adequately cover the territory.
Go Watchtower!

 
Heaven
Heaven 3 days ago

LostGen nailed it. I think the Conscious Class should be stating this exact thing to their JW families. It would be interesting to see how long the GB clung to this stupidity once many started pointing out the idiocity of it.

It was this kind of logic I used on my Dad when he said the bad economy during the 'Great Recession' we recently went through was the reason Armageddon was so close. If a bad economy is the reason Armageddon will come then shouldn't it have already arrived during the 'Great Depression' of the 1930s and not the recent 'Great Recession'? Crickets ensued... and I got the deer-in-the-headlights look from Dad.

But this kind of GB / JW crap logic prevails.

 +2 / -0

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Topic Summary
today's text:.
saturday, april 2. the little one will become a thousand.—isa.
60:22.. perhaps we live in an area where there are few witnesses or where we do not see a lot of immediate results in our preaching work.



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Amazing Growth! Jehovah Is Blessing The Preaching Work!
by Divergent 4 days ago 29 Replies latest 2 days ago   jw friends
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Divergent
Divergent 3 days ago

Heaven:
It was this kind of logic I used on my Dad when he said the bad economy during the 'Great Recession' we recently went through was the reason Armageddon was so close. If a bad economy is the reason Armageddon will come then shouldn't it have already arrived during the 'Great Depression' of the 1930s and not the recent 'Great Recession'? Crickets ensued... and I got the deer-in-the-headlights look from Dad.



On the other hand, if things are going well, they would say that Armageddon is near because peace & security would come before Armageddon! Either way they think they are right - problems = the end is near, when things are good = the end is near! It's almost impossible to reason with them!

 +3 / -0
Absolutesbeginners
Absolutesbeginners 3 days ago

Close to where i live there is a "used to be" KH .
Now its sold , its a private place .
With flowers and a nice car in front of it .
But still a creepy house btw......
Everytime i am passing by its reminds me "meetings" we made there before going doors to doors ...
Last century ....
i laught .And put up the music in my car .

"TIME IS ON MY SIDE " ROLLING STONES

 +1 / -0
alanv
alanv 3 days ago
185 average publisher increase last year in UK. To get those, they spent over 24,000,000 hours. That is 130,000 hours to get one person. And that includes the kids of JWs lol
 +1 / -0
Absolutesbeginners
Absolutesbeginners 3 days ago

130 000 hours for one person ?
OMG
This poor person ...
She REALLY wanted to make new "friends"

 +1 / -0
Heaven
Heaven 3 days ago


Divergent said: On the other hand, if things are going well, they would say that Armageddon is near because peace & security would come before Armageddon! Either way they think they are right - problems = the end is near, when things are good = the end is near! It's almost impossible to reason with them!
And yet, Armageddon never arrives.

 
MarkofCane
MarkofCane 3 days ago

7000 hours to convert one single recruit !
Ironically it only takes about 3 hrs on a site like this, to see through all there lie's.
And unplug
 +2 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot 3 days ago


Divergent - "Either way they think they are right - problems = the end is near, when things are good = the end is near!
True.
I still suspect that former does far more to bolster their convictions than the latter, however.
It's one of the reasons JWs in the developed world are so soft these days, compared to their predecessors. Modern life is - overall - simply much more improved than it was 50-odd years ago, even for people in lower-income brackets.

Divergent - "It's almost impossible to reason with them!
To paraphrase House MD, if you could reason with devout Jehovah's Witnesses, there'd be no Jehovah's Witnesses.
 
sir82
sir82 2 days ago

Heard an experience recently....out of a 3 hour shift of "cart witnessing", one person wandered by and took a book.
You'd have thought heavenly angels trilled on platinum trumpets. Everyone who heard about it just raved and raved, about how the Kingdom "must keep on increasing" and "seeds of truth are being planted" and oh my Jehovah, what a blessing!
One book. 3 hours.
It would be funny if it weren't so sad.
Aw heck, it's funny too.

 
Heaven
Heaven 2 days ago

Hey sir82, you can expand this further. How many books did they place in a week, month, year from the cart witnessing? That person who took the book may have needed some fire starter. I'd use it as carbon material for my compost.
Time shows just how slow this 'life saving' work really is and how useless it is as well.
And where is Armageddon again on the great timeline of life / human history? A 100% NO SHOW, that's where.

 
Vidiot
Vidiot 2 days ago


sir82 - "Everyone who heard about it just raved and raved, about how the Kingdom 'must keep on increasing' and 'seeds of truth are being planted' and oh my Jehovah, what a blessing!"
That's just Witness-ese for "See? See? it's not a complete waste of time after all!!!"
 

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Topic Summary
today's text:.
saturday, april 2. the little one will become a thousand.—isa.
60:22.. perhaps we live in an area where there are few witnesses or where we do not see a lot of immediate results in our preaching work.



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JW.ORG Channel on Roku
by Wild_Thing 4 days ago 7 Replies latest 13 hours ago   jw friends
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Wild_Thing
Wild_Thing 4 days ago

On my Roku box, I went to the most popular channels and there sits JW.ORG. It has a rating of 5 stars with over 43,000 reviews! More than the NBC News channel, and more than the History channel. Something is wrong with this picture. And when you go to the Religion category of channels, it is #1!
Even the Mormon channel only has about 7,000 ratings with 4 1/2 stars. I swear, they could put up any kind of drivel and if it is comes from almighty GB, the braindead will upvote it five stars ... no questions asked.



 +1 / -0
pbrow
pbrow 4 days ago

I dont know what you are talking about????
You tell me what is not 5 stars about this....



 +10 / -0
LostGeneration
LostGeneration 3 days ago

I was pretty shocked to see this on my Roku as well.
On the other hand, if any "worldlies" end up watching that drivel (think bread example, stupid JW song where they fall in love over a trash bag) they will run and hide from the cultists, and that's a good thing!
 +6 / -0
ZAPPA-ESQUE
ZAPPA-ESQUE 3 days ago

Maybe people are into that type of humour ?
Or when you have 8 million faithful Kool-Aid drinking followers you will get a lot of people willing and ready to obey and view your TV channel. I am sure that if Kim-un-Jerk of North Korea had to have a TV channel ALL Koreans would faithfully view it and it would garner high ratings levels too.
Don't let stats deceive you into anything.
Porn Channels would probably show a high stat too !
 +3 / -0
LevelThePlayingField
LevelThePlayingField a day ago

I'm sure on one of the up coming broadcasts they will brag about this very point
 +1 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot 14 hours ago
As far as I'm concerned, the current transition to a mostly-internet-exclusive "e-religion" can't finish soon enough.
 +1 / -0
Gayle
Gayle 14 hours ago
That's only ½% of their membership's response!! Pretty poor actually!!
 +1 / -0
steve2
steve2 13 hours ago

We don't have Roku in New Zealand - but if jw.org "recommends" Roku as its preferred site broadcaster/platform for jw.org in the States and jws accordingly suscribe en masse to it, the numbers would be stacked in favor of jw.org coming out as one of the most popular channels on Roku, wouldn't it?
By contrast, perhaps the Mormon channel doesn't promote or recommend one site broadcaster/platform over others so the numbers suscribing through Roku are fewer compared with the jws.
 

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