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I can't take it anymore!
by BlackWolf 3 days ago 32 Replies latest a day ago   jw friends
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BlackWolf
BlackWolf 3 days ago
My dad was recently made an elder about maybe 6 months ago, and now he is never around he's always at work or doing some kind of jw crap. Now he conducts the watchtower study and is even doing the special talk tommorow. He's become an even more strict controlling jerk than he was before, and i'm never allowed to go out and do anything non jw related because he doesn't have the time. He's obsessed with us being a perfect family, if we don't do something just right he freaks out. Like last night the kitchen was a little messy and he got so mad about it that he made my mom cry and and hasn't spoken to us since yesterday. I think maybe my dad is just stressed from being an elder? Or maybe he is just mentally ill? I feel like my family is becoming more and more dysfunctional, and it's really starting to drive me a little crazy. Now I have to do twice as much jw stuff now that I'm an elders kid and I really can't take it anymore! Thanks for reading my little rant.
 +34 / -0
Witness My Fury
Witness My Fury 3 days ago

Console yourself in knowing it's bollocks so young and that you wont be wasting the best years of your life serving this vile cult just as soon as you are old enough to get away from it.
There is of course the "no" word. Gradually ramp up it's usage according to your circumstances.
 +9 / -0
burnedout
burnedout 3 days ago

That is how I acted as an elder. I had to be exemplary in every way and my family also. I felt trapped in many ways, so many 'privileges' to take care of. Every bit of it was never ending work.
I too was an elders kid and felt the same way you do. My Dad was a great friend and father. The stress of being an elder is what got to him. Shamefully, I let the same thing happen to me as an elder, except I had a meltdown, nearly killed myself, then quit.
Was your Dad like this before his appointment?
 +7 / -0
Village Idiot
Village Idiot 3 days ago

"I think maybe my dad is just stressed from being an elder?"
Yes.
"Or maybe he is just mentally ill?"
Being a JW is a form of mental illness. Be glad you're sane even if it's driving you mad. Yes, I see the paradox of what I just said.



 +8 / -0
stillin
stillin 3 days ago

I didn't get how old you are, but my advice, if you're listening, is to buck up and be as pleasant as you know how to be. It's a character-building excercise and you will benefit from it for the rest of your life.
there will be jerks for the rest of your life. Sorry.
 +5 / -4
flipper
flipper 3 days ago

BLACK WOLF- I know how you feel. I was born into the JW organization and my dad was an elder before I was born. Dealing with him was like dealing with your dad, he was always judgmental, expected perfection out of his kids ( us ) , and spent more time counseling members of the congregation than spending time with his own family.
Hopefully you'll turn 18 sometime soon and be able to get your own place with a roommate in order to escape the domineering head who rules your household. I know how you feel. When I was your age I wanted the hell out of my controlling dad's household also. You aren't alone, many of us are here for you and understand. I hope you don't wait until age 44 like me to exit the Witnesses as I started having doubts at age 30. But believe me, your life will be better and your thinking more free and clear once you get out. I'm 56 years old now and feel that life is great these last 12 years !
Just get a good education and prepare for college if you can by taking college prep courses in high school. Getting a college education will help you go far, further than your parents have gone. Hang in there, Peace out, Mr. Flipper
 +7 / -0
Diogenesister
Diogenesister 3 days ago

No worries...keep ranting of it keeps you sane! Remember education is your key to offski out of there..so start planning now! Maybe tell your parents you'd like to do a part time job so that you can start saving to be a pioneer ( yes its a lie..but anything to make non JW contacts and gain experience/ get references for your future.
Maybe tell your mum how your feeling, that its stumbling you because Jesus was the fine( mild mannered) Shepherd and your dad is not emulating his good example!
Sounds like your dad is gonna burn himself out for nothing. It sucks that you are going to have to see him go through that and not be able to do/say a thing.
Love your avatar BTW...and your " handle"!!
 +8 / -0
Village Idiot
Village Idiot 3 days ago
BlackWolf, I know you're homeschooled but take Flipper's advice about a college education. Just daydreaming about it as well as making any practical preparations will give you some relief.
 +3 / -0
James Mixon
James Mixon 3 days ago

My doctor told me when I was a new elder, if you don't slow down you will a
have a hearth attack or a mental breakdown. That was two years as a elder and at age 31.
Between raising four kids, full time night job, owning a restaurant and congregation responsibilities,
I went nuts.The marriage and family suffered. It's impossible to be model elder and family,
I never knew that guy....
 +4 / -0
BlackWolf
BlackWolf 3 days ago
Thanks everyone. He was like this before he was appointed, and he's had a couple of breakdowns before when I was younger. I thought he had gotten over it and I don't want him to end up like that again but I guess there's not much I can do about it. I can understand how he is stressed, if I had 4 kids, a full time job that I hated, and I was an elder I would be pretty crazy too. I just wish there was something I could do to help.
 +7 / -0

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I can't take it anymore!
by BlackWolf 3 days ago 32 Replies latest a day ago   jw friends
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stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 3 days ago

I hear you!
You have described so many family situations amongst witnesses.
Hang in there and recognise that although the atmosphere is difficult, YOU can control what you allow to affect YOU!
Only things we allow will hurt us. Keep the bigger picture in mind, and feel free to get the support from this wonderful community.
 +2 / -0
Sabin
Sabin 3 days ago
Sounds to me like your dad doesn't even want to be an elder if he is already acting that way. If he was truly happy bout it then he would be on a high. Most men don't want the responsibility cause they know it is all shit right deep down. They just go along with it out of obligation, fear or they just haven't yet worked out they are being conned. I know that doesn't make it any easier on you. The Borg love to put pressure on families, it 's begining to look as if they want them torn apart. More control. The Bastards. Keep your pecker up Black Wolf. Keep looking for ways to build friendships with one's outside the cong. Hugs.
 +1 / -0
Pete Zahut
Pete Zahut 3 days ago

You know best how he'd react but maybe you could get your Dad a nice card and express the concerns you've mentioned here, in a very respectful way.
In so many words, you could tell him that you love him and miss his presence in the house and that you've seen a change in him and in the family since he's become an Elder and it hasn't been for the better.
(Do a google search of "Ministers Kids" and get some statistics on how it effects their lives and maybe you know of some JW Elder's kids who've have had a rough time)
In a tactful way let him know what you've learned about the matter and how you already feel you are at the breaking point. Tell him you're afraid of the family breaking up. Tell him that you remember how the Society says fathers main responsibility is to put his family first and it feels like lately his Job and Congregation responsibilities are first and the family is suffering because of it.
Just an idea, but I know if my kids would have done something like that, I'd have definitely sat up and taken notice.

 +7 / -1
FayeDunaway
FayeDunaway 3 days ago

My father was a fun loving guy before he was an elder. Then he started walking around like he was carrying the weight of the world on his shoulders and he was never home. The best times we had were when we went on vacation and he didn't have to think about it for a few days.
I feel for you. I was a free spirit with an elder father too, and a mother who wanted to appear perfect all the time. It's a lot of unrealistic pressure. Someday you can escape. It's hard knowing how exactly to do it, and when, but it will happen. I think I've told you before, but get a part time job and save all your money. All of it. Use it later for college and living expenses because unless you have a rich sweet worldly grandmother you will need to do it yourself.
Edited to add: i love Pete's advice too, I think expressing this to your father may make your life a little easier for the present and may wake your father up a bit from his elder haze.
 +1 / -0
MarkofCane
MarkofCane 3 days ago

Still in
 
Absolutesbeginners
Absolutesbeginners 3 days ago

My advice :
if your are more than 18 y o . take your pack and RUN FAST!!!( easy to say i know )

if you are under 18 . have a close look to what brainwashing can do to a family .
Take lesson and become the most cleaver and ready for "whatever happen man" on this planet ... " like Bruce Willis "

The strongest and most ready man on this damm planet ....for anything

Your on the fire mate now . its hard i know. THEY are crazy .NOT YOU !!
 
Wasanelder Once
Wasanelder Once 3 days ago

Just keep howling!




 +1 / -0
atomant
atomant 3 days ago
Howdy blackwolf.Well its all down hill from here.lm the oldest of 7 and dad to was an elder.lts a status thing and the authority entrusted to him has gone to his head.His ego is driving him to do things he didnt do before.Hes a mad man on fire.Call the fire brigade and hose him down will ya.

 
NeverAllowestobeMyself
NeverAllowestobeMyself 3 days ago
I served as an elder and it was some of the worst years of my life. Your Dad has to sit in a room every six months and have a CO tell him all the things he is doing wrong, all the things he needs to improve on and in the last 60 seconds of the meeting he will be told "but your doing a great job just do what you can." Problem is in three months at the next assembly there will be several talks that reinforce he isn't doing enough. Add in a Convention in the summer and the Kingdom Ministry School for Elders and the School for Congregation Elders that is 5 days of "do more" followed by 60 seconds of "just do what you can". Add to that the inevitable emotional beating he is getting from the congregation and possibly other elders and well you get my point. The man is under enormous stress. When I was an elder all I ever wanted to do was help out and it was NEVER ENOUGH! I'm not condoning any bad behavior your Dad may be guilty of but take it from me if you knew half of what he goes through on a weekly basis you may appreciate his perspective. The reality is your Dad needs help sadly it sounds like he doesn't know it yet.
 +3 / -0
Witness My Fury
Witness My Fury 3 days ago

Was your dad an accidental elder or was he reaching out and wanting it?
If he was an accidental elder then it might well be worth your time to have an adult conversation with him (choose your timing damn well) and kindly lay it out that you are concerned for his well being (you are, honestly you are!) that he will burn out and his family is / will suffer, and that you think he is not being fair to his family who should come first. You are though obviously only saying these things because you care deeply about him, (but dont lay it on too thick or he'll know it's not true.)
It has to be framed correctly and delivered without judgement only concern and kindness.
It might make him worse that is a gamble mind, but if he senses you are on his side and looking out for him it might work. If he thinks you are doing it for your benefit he will likely resist.
 +1 / -1

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Topic Summary
my dad was recently made an elder about maybe 6 months ago, and now he is never around he's always at work or doing some kind of jw crap.
now he conducts the watchtower study and is even doing the special talk tommorow.
he's become an even more strict controlling jerk than he was before, and i'm never allowed to go out and do anything non jw related because he doesn't have the time.



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First post after a year or two of lurking on this site-Sorry for the length!
by Pattytheperfect1 2 years ago
adjusted knowledge
Have you ever experience suprise by an Elder that actually showed compassion and reasoning in a judicial committee?
by adjusted knowledge 8 days ago
pale.emperor
Trying To Leave - Im Going Crazy
by pale.emperor a month ago
Nicholaus Kopernicus
CLAM (Feb 8-14) - Are You "Reaching Out"? (15mins)
by Nicholaus Kopernicus 2 months ago



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I can't take it anymore!
by BlackWolf 3 days ago 32 Replies latest a day ago   jw friends
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stan livedeath
stan livedeath 3 days ago
Hey b wolf...just think of all the fun you can have as an elders brat. You can get away with pretty well anything. Goofing talk assignments for a start. Think positive ...lol..!
 
jookbeard
jookbeard 3 days ago
sounds like my old man (RIP),moody, stressed,foul tempered,inundated with jw crap like you say,obsessed with being a good example, unfortunately he stayed an elder until he died in good standing in 2005, I believe through all those years he was undiagnosed bipolar, the only hope is that the workload takes it toll and one day he throws the towel in, this stupid pointless position brings out the very worst in people,it makes them neglectful,pig headed,proud,pedantic,arrogant, basically into pigs of men, sorry cant be of much more encouragement
 +1 / -0
burnedout
burnedout 3 days ago
NeverAllowedToBeMyself has given the exact description of what happens...
 
Heaven
Heaven 3 days ago

Hi Black Wolf...
Can you tell us which Colleges you want to go to?
Have you started on your vision board or mission statement yet?
I know you love to draw... keep doing this. Can you share some of your artwork with us?
My parents went through a period of being mean-spirited, holier-than-thou. It was not easy to live with. I just focused on the things that gave me joy, avoided them as much as I could, and kept revisiting and creating/building my life plan.
When I was a kid, it was fairly easy for me to get away as we had a 100 acre farm and I could go exploring in the woods, go for a ride on one of my horses, or hide out in the hay mow in the barn. As an adult (and yes, they weren't nice to their adult children sometimes too), I would remain calm during the rants, give my logical input and then 'get busy' in the ensuing weeks which meant I couldn't visit them as much { my job was actually really busy at times ... life does get busy when you're an adult and have to do all the things your parents did for you as a kid ;0) }

I just let my parents have their rants but I wouldn't react. This is the hardest thing to do, but you can do it. Just keep saying to yourself, "I have a life plan and I am going to be leaving to execute that plan." Look at these rants as being an example of what NOT to do. Sometimes the people in our lives give us good examples to follow, other times, they give bad examples. Your Dad's rants are obviously of the bad variety.
I also got a job as a teenager in town so I had some money saved up to go to school. I got a loan from the government to pay for my College education. I paid that loan back too once I got a job.
Your life is yours to architect as you wish. Continue to focus on this.
Maybe every time your Dad has a rant, add a positive picture to your vision board.
Keep posting here too... we are listening and care about you Wolfie.
 +2 / -0
rebel8
rebel8 3 days ago

Being a jerk is not a mental illness.
Of course he's stressed out. Running other people's lives and policing their Thought Crimes is exhausting.
Financial independence is the door to your future. Until then, I highly recommend practical jokes as a coping mechanism. Also, giving him the finger while your hands are in your pockets can help.

 +1 / -0
Introvert 2
Introvert 2 2 days ago

Cool Rebel 8 I like that, finger in pocket ! I do that when I'm driving or alone at the shop. The Mr. Bean movie when he goes to the US as an art gallery custodian has a good skit on him flipping off people when in a convertible, here it is !
Wolfie I was an orphan and my uncle blew most of our inheritance through mismanagement. Made my brothers Tourette's way worst and lost over a 100 acres of paid for land my Dad left us with. I counted the days from 15 yo to 18, finally taking back control of my life. Hope this helps. Good suggestions above.




 
BlackWolf
BlackWolf 2 days ago

Thank you everyone for your advice. I have talked to my dad about it and he said that he would ask the other elders for less privileges because he agreed that it was too much.
I do have somewhat of a plan for when I leave and I have a job (although I work for other witnesses). Im almost done with my homeschool so I can start college classes soon, I plan on telling my parents that its so I can support myself for pioneering :wink: I think the hardest thing is knowing that when i leave they are going to shun me and I'm going to have to deal with that if I want to be free. That hurts the most.
 +2 / -0
FayeDunaway
FayeDunaway 2 days ago

Hon, if you leave slowly, they may never have to 'deal' with you. Your relationship with your parents will probably never be the same as when you were with them, but if you do it right they may not shun you. It will be hard on your father for sure, since he is an elder and his kids are supposed to be 'exemplary' and it may put him in an uncomfortable position later. But if you are out of the house, and leave slowly, they may not shun you and if you are out of the house he may not suffer too many consequences. It will be a long process, if you don't want to lose them. Others have been more upfront and ripped the bandaid off, for complete independence, with mixed results.
P.s. I'm glad your dad listened to you on cutting back! That's a good sign.
 +4 / -0
Giordano
Giordano 2 days ago

BlackWolf If I recall you should be 16 years old about now. You sound calmer then your first post 10 months ago. Certainly more mature. And I trust that you do get something positive from the contact and advice you have received on a forum like this. Which reminds me that always delete your web site browsing each and every time you visit any site your parents would not approve of.
Because you are isolated at home, lack of transportation and being home schooled your computer will be your window on the world and a means to further your education.
As you mature you will see changes in how you feel as well as in the relationship with your family. One of the things you should do is to try and do more around the house if your not doing that much. Volunteering to do household chores is the best way to show respect.
So when the day comes and your parents learn that your not going to be a pioneer until (misdirection) you have at least a two year degree. They will have more positive things to reflect on in terms of your maturity.
If your not ready to be entirely on your own when you turn 18 and there is a community college close at hand be sure to check out their courses like now....... on line. A lot of folks these days attend for a two year practical degree and are able to become economically independent. It is also more acceptable in the JW world to do that then going away to a 4 year college. I am not suggesting that you don't get a a higher degree just that because of the way you have been raised........ isolated from people your age and held in the grip of a high control religion you may need more time before you move on with your life, move out and begin a fade and an independent life.

Since your home schooling is finishing up starting with college prep classes would be a smart thing to do. A two year decree in say the medical field will just about guarantee a really good part time job and enough income to live on your own while you continue your education.
Your going to have your whole life a head of you and your education will be important to live it well.
 +3 / -0
Heaven
Heaven 2 days ago


Black Wolf said: I think the hardest thing is knowing that when i leave they are going to shun me and I'm going to have to deal with that if I want to be free. That hurts the most.
If you work it right, you can still have a relationship with your parents once you are an adult. They may not shun you. But never get baptized.
When your folks start really aging, they are going to need your help. Stay supportive but firm.

 +1 / -0

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Topic Summary
my dad was recently made an elder about maybe 6 months ago, and now he is never around he's always at work or doing some kind of jw crap.
now he conducts the watchtower study and is even doing the special talk tommorow.
he's become an even more strict controlling jerk than he was before, and i'm never allowed to go out and do anything non jw related because he doesn't have the time.



Related Topics
Leela1
Closer/death/Funerals
by Leela1 a month ago
Pattytheperfect1
First post after a year or two of lurking on this site-Sorry for the length!
by Pattytheperfect1 2 years ago
adjusted knowledge
Have you ever experience suprise by an Elder that actually showed compassion and reasoning in a judicial committee?
by adjusted knowledge 8 days ago
pale.emperor
Trying To Leave - Im Going Crazy
by pale.emperor a month ago
Nicholaus Kopernicus
CLAM (Feb 8-14) - Are You "Reaching Out"? (15mins)
by Nicholaus Kopernicus 2 months ago



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I can't take it anymore!
by BlackWolf 3 days ago 32 Replies latest a day ago   jw friends
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FayeDunaway
FayeDunaway 2 days ago
I think she's already baptized :frowning:. But still, many of us have faded, and she can too if she does it carefully. In any case, it's hard hurting your parents and knowing you are going to be a disappointment to them. I'm sorry, black wolf, that you are in that situation, and I'm sorry for all of us.
 +1 / -0
Londo111
Londo111 a day ago

Growing up, this explains my father's behavior. It can make people callous to other people's feelings, especially when they sit in on judicial committees and ruin people's lives.
This organization is facing a growing elder shortage, or just a shortage of "qualified" men as defined by stringent Watchtower standards. Anyone in an appointed position, whether elder or ministerial servant, have a heavy workload and are very overworked because of this shortage.
As time goes on, this shortage can only increase. Either the Watchtower will have to loosen its standards for qualifications (and include women in some of the work such as accounts, microphones, ect), or in coming decades, it will reach a crisis point.
 +1 / -0
Stealth
Stealth a day ago

I liked Witness My Fury's suggestions as a starting point.
If that does not work....., well you actually have a lot of power in this situation. The next time he acts like a jerk and make your mother cry, tell him you are just one act away from making him unqualified to be and elder, so quit acting like a jerk and back off.
 

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Topic Summary
my dad was recently made an elder about maybe 6 months ago, and now he is never around he's always at work or doing some kind of jw crap.
now he conducts the watchtower study and is even doing the special talk tommorow.
he's become an even more strict controlling jerk than he was before, and i'm never allowed to go out and do anything non jw related because he doesn't have the time.



Related Topics
Leela1
Closer/death/Funerals
by Leela1 a month ago
Pattytheperfect1
First post after a year or two of lurking on this site-Sorry for the length!
by Pattytheperfect1 2 years ago
adjusted knowledge
Have you ever experience suprise by an Elder that actually showed compassion and reasoning in a judicial committee?
by adjusted knowledge 8 days ago
pale.emperor
Trying To Leave - Im Going Crazy
by pale.emperor a month ago
Nicholaus Kopernicus
CLAM (Feb 8-14) - Are You "Reaching Out"? (15mins)
by Nicholaus Kopernicus 2 months ago



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Banned from the second school!
by purrpurr 3 days ago 34 Replies latest 12 hours ago   jw friends
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purrpurr
purrpurr 3 days ago

I've been told by a jw friend that when her hall recently had a refurb that big changes were made to the second school.
One, a large sign has been placed on the door telling people not to use it and to sit in the main hall itself.
Two,that all the chairs which used to face the large windows looking into the main hall are now side on to the window facing the wall instead.
This is because "so many people were sitting out in there! People were finding all manner of exhuses to sit-in there and the brothers want us to all be together in the main hall!" She said.
Of course I didn't tell her what I really thought of this but seriously? What harm can it do to have some people sitting in the second school if they want to? Has anyone else encountered this level of control? What do you think is the reason behind it?
 +12 / -0
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 3 days ago
they never liked me sitting there
 +2 / -0
jookbeard
jookbeard 3 days ago
I used to purposely sit there towards the end and face the library so I could pick a particular old book to read and select the amount of false prophecies in it, it was about the time I was marked and my raised hand ignored
 +13 / -0
Giordano
Giordano 3 days ago

Control issues.
The need to make sure people were paying attention.
The society apparently never believed that a beautiful view could be spiritually nourishing.
No day dreaming.
No seeing what you were actually missing.
 +8 / -0
FayeDunaway
FayeDunaway 2 days ago
Because they want those with small children to torment their kids in the main auditorium trying to keep them unnaturally quiet for 2 hours straight, and if they aren't, they want to enjoy the opportunity to sneer at them.
 +10 / -0
Cangie
Cangie 2 days ago

Yes, control...and absolutely no consideration for people's individual comfort, just a "herd mentality." I am not comfortable in crowds...related to claustrophobia,discomfort with heights, and anxiety. So, at assemblies and conventions I always looked for seats either on the end of the row, or seats not too high up in a stadium. So many times, the attendants had roped off entire sections, and got ugly if I requested a more comfortable seat, not even caring to allow me to explain what my issues were. Same at the KH, where they insisted that everyone crowd into seats at the front of the hall, leaving lots of empty seats at the back of the room. (except, of course, when I was attempting to get reinstated---then I was avoided like I had Ebola.)
I had developed a cough, and rather than disturb others around me during the WT study, I went out to the lobby to sit and continue to listen. An attendant came over to me and said I had to go back to the main hall, and in the midst of my explanation, he turned around and ignored me, but not before he questioned how it would look to visitors if they came in and found me sitting there. (???) It seems that the people assigned as attendants just enjoy the sense of power that it fools them into thinking they have, probably above what they have in their everyday lives.

 +16 / -0
JW_Rogue
JW_Rogue 2 days ago
This is a new directive from the circuit overseer so that the hall looks more full and everyone is paying more attention. Used to be some groups would get together in the back and socialize for most of the meeting. Well, we can't have that now, can we?
 +12 / -0
StephaneLaliberte
StephaneLaliberte 2 days ago

Depending on the days, I would use the second hall anytime I felt that my kids were being to disruptive. Every once in a while, a brother would walk in and advise me to go back to the main hall. Then I'd say, jokingly: Oh boy, I'd love that. If only I could, believe me I would." Once, a brother was insistent and asked me why.... I told him: "I already lost too much of my program by now. Can't we talk about that later?"
Also, I remember, one of the last Circuit Assembly, I was outraged to see that brothers were walking around with "Take Your Seats" posters 10 minutes before the musical program. Within minutes, everyone were sitting at their chair and the music hadn't even started yet! I was pissed cause what's the point of going to a convention if it is not to talk with friends?
 +10 / -0
Ringo
Ringo 2 days ago


Has anyone else encountered this level of control?
Yes. I had many tell me that when they came into the hall that they felt unwelcome because the double doors into the main auditorium were quickly closed, so they would sit back there. I used to just so I wouldn't have to put up with the whining, ill-behaved kids. then there were the children, but that's another story.

 +6 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 2 days ago

JW Elders are on a power and control trip, having people sit in a back hall means they cant always watch over their flock, this obviously doesn't sit well with some elders .
Directing people to not use the second room is in essence re-asserting their power and control.
Sometimes people (kids) who do use it do so to goof around, talk and not really pay attention to whats being said at the front hall.

 +4 / -0

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Banned from the second school!
by purrpurr 3 days ago 34 Replies latest 12 hours ago   jw friends
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sparrowdown
sparrowdown 2 days ago

In the hall I was attending they removed all the back rows of seats so people were forced to sit towards the front.
How's that for control issues.
 +7 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 2 days ago
I wonder if a DF who sits in there would be asked to join the main auditorium? Hmm...thought not....
 +4 / -0
hoser
hoser 2 days ago
One hall I was in they locked the second school for the Sunday meeting.
 +3 / -0
NeverKnew
NeverKnew 2 days ago

They're just trying to make it more difficult to surf the net or post to this site during the service.
More eyeballs looking over your darn shoulder with all those roaming mic dudes.
 +3 / -0
stillin
stillin 2 days ago
They roped off the back rows at my hall for a while. If I wanted to sit in back, I would simply turn my chair. Is that a sin?
 +2 / -0
TipsyMangoTea
TipsyMangoTea 2 days ago

Currently sitting in the very middle of the main hall with a song book covering my phone during the special talk, hahaha.
I just looked over my shoulder, and the second hall has a number of elderly people in it, so I guess the attendants either don't care or don't want to tell off senior citizens from sitting there.
 +6 / -0
Darkknight757
Darkknight757 2 days ago

It's definitely a means to control people. I know for a fact that the bruz would close the back school at our hall because, "people wouldn't pay attention to the meeting back there." There was one MS in particular that would be a real stickler about it, even telling Elders not to sit back there.
 +3 / -0
kairos
kairos 2 days ago

The sign should read:
 "DF'd and future DF'd only"
Now that I think about it, I was coming in latte and leaving right after the prayer just before I made my final exit. ( staged my exit from the back hall )
This is likely not a new tactic, fade from the main auditorium, then the back hall... Then, "where'd he go? Oh well?"
The elders must know this process, as they are seeing it everywhere and are trying to knock down the first step towards our freedom. Very ugly.
 +11 / -0
JW GoneBad
JW GoneBad 2 days ago

It won't be long before they start putting restrictions on the use of the 'phone-in' feature for those who opt to stay home but for whatever reason have a need to phone in to listen to the meetings.
The phone-in component was meant for bed-ridden, sick and the elderly. But many if not most JWs are abusing this provision as well because attending the Kingdom Hall is becoming a nuisance and bore; so they too are staying home, shopping or doing something of more importance and just calling in.
 +4 / -0
KiddingMe
KiddingMe 2 days ago

They used to have a chair blocking the door to our second school. Some took issue with it, moving the chair and entering anyway. Especially those with small children, that didnt want to have to go and sit in the bathroom everytime their little one got antsy. Someone complained that thier donations pay for the hall like everyone else. After a couple of weeks the chair blocking the door was gone.
As previous posters stated, it all about control. It is probably one or two brothers forcing this issue.
 +4 / -0

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i've been told by a jw friend that when her hall recently had a refurb that big changes were made to the second school.. one, a large sign has been placed on the door telling people not to use it and to sit in the main hall itself.. two,that all the chairs which used to face the large windows looking into the main hall are now side on to the window facing the wall instead.. this is because "so many people were sitting out in there!
people were finding all manner of exhuses to sit-in there and the brothers want us to all be together in the main hall!
" she said.. of course i didn't tell her what i really thought of this but seriously?



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Banned from the second school!
by purrpurr 3 days ago 34 Replies latest 12 hours ago   jw friends
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Pete Zahut
Pete Zahut 2 days ago

Definetly about control and not trusting that individuals know how to conduct themselves without being monitored. As is always the case with JW's , It's not enough that one attends meetings, reads the literature and applies the counsel in ones life as one sees fit. It's about small minded uneducated individuals who've been given the authority or have taken it upon themselves to enforce, monitor and generally intervene in peoples personal relationship with god.

I went to a congregation once where the P.O. wasn't happy with the teenagers level of participation during the meetings so he made all of them sit in the first few rows on Sunday. He'd assign each one of them a paragraph or two to answer during the previous Watchtower study and they were to have it prepared when he called on them the following week. This went on for some time until the teenagers all decided to get up after the public talk and go have their own Watchtower study at one of their houses. One young brother went from 19 years old to 20 years old in this time period. He sat in a regular seat one Sunday after he turned 20 and the usher came back and told him to move up front. This brother flatly refused and kicked up a fuss during the meeting.

Eventually the parents put a stop to it all but had to have their teens sit by them instead of with their friends during the meeting.
This same P.O would also sit behind the young brothers and observe their hair length. If their hair was getting anywhere near their ears, he'd lean forward, tap them on the shoulder and whisper "get a haircut or I'm pulling your publishers card". Once again the parents kicked up a fuss once the young brothers began saying "fine....go ahead and pull it".
This guy and the elders under him came to be known as the "Gestapo Crew" and people started leaving the Congregation (including my family) and attending the other congregation that met there or the one in the next town.
For some people with anxiety, it's a comfort knowing the back room is available should they start feeling overwhelmed, same thing for people with small childeren. Also for those who find themselves running late, they go ahead and attend the meeting knowing that they can just duck into the back room without disturbing anyone. Without that option, they might decide to stay home.

 +10 / -0
KiddingMe
KiddingMe 2 days ago


JW GoneBad43 minutes ago

It won't be long before they start putting restrictions on the use of the 'phone-in' feature for those who opt to stay home but for whatever reason have a need to phone in to listen to the meetings.
They already did this in our hall. We had a local needs about it but the direction come from the society. Basically said what you said, its for the shut in. Not people with short term illnesses. Said so many are phoning in that the ones that need it, can't get through the line because there is a limited no. of spot available on the conference call. They said they did an audit and even had callers from out of state calling. So they changed the pass code and only gave it to a select few.
It was interesting that they stressed that the direction was coming from the society. At first I was thinking the society was doing it keep apostates at bay, but i didn't notice postings about it here, so I assumed it must be more of a local issue.
 +4 / -0
blondie
blondie 2 days ago

I was in a couple of halls that allowed parents with disruptive children to go in there. It worked. In one congregation they tried to keep people out of there like they tried to determine who could sit in the back rows...no one was very cooperative especially the elders wives.
the story about teenagers in the front...shame on the parents letting them take over control of their children. I was in one small congregation with only one elder and he was disappointed in the participation at the WT study. He told everyone that if no one raised his hand that he would call on anyone who was there, even if they did not volunteer.
 +3 / -0
KiddingMe
KiddingMe 2 days ago
One of our elders recently told my husband that he wants to get me to give a comment (I haven't commented in over 3 yrs). Lol. He's been assigning scriptures to one of my husband's buddies, like he's a kid. I told my husband, that's not going to happen. I will give a comment when i want to give one- for myself, not for brother --.
 +5 / -0
kairos
kairos 2 days ago

@KiddingMe-
That description about the restrictions on the call-in features sounds just like what I experienced in Napa, Ca. Are you sure we weren't in the same hall?
 +3 / -0
ZAPPA-ESQUE
ZAPPA-ESQUE 2 days ago

I was fetched and taken to the "barber-shop" by one such overbearing elder when I was about 19 yrs. He then also proceeded to instruct the barber on how my hair should be cut [I came out looking like a cross between a Nazi and Kim-un-Jerk of North Korea]. I then rebelled totally...........left home [Dad was an abusive alcoholic anyway] and grew my hair + beard ............
This elder screwed with many lives ......

 +4 / -0
purrpurr
purrpurr 2 days ago

Thanks everyone for the replies. It seems this is a new policy, it seems to me that the harder they oppress the flock like this the more people will rebel and stay at home listening in instead.
Where will all the anxious, germ and fragrance phobic go now? What about the df'd ones and the children who are just being children go?
Frankly little short of dragging the flock out of their houses and making them sit in the main hall at gun point I don't see how they will make this work?
 +3 / -0
KiddingMe
KiddingMe 2 days ago


kairos9 hours ago

@KiddingMe-
That description about the restrictions on the call-in features sounds just like what I experienced in Napa, Ca. Are you sure we weren't in the same hall?
I'm on the Easy Coast. But now I'm wondering if this direction is more widespread than I thought, or a new policy.
@Kairos- do you remember how long ago this happened at your hall? Ours happened this past January?
 +2 / -0
KiddingMe
KiddingMe 2 days ago

purrpurr

Where will all the anxious, germ and fragrance phobic go now?
A friend of mine attended this congregation where they had a third school that had a sign on the door that said "fragrance free room" with a closed circuit TV. They said there were times when the 1st and 2nd schools would be full and have no empty seats and no one was allowed to sit in 3rd school. There was one time when a sister went to sit in there and was turned away from the room. They said she was upset about it and ended up leaving the KH and going home.
The main person using the 3rd school was the P.O.'s wife and her family.
 +3 / -0
MarkofCane
MarkofCane 2 days ago

Listen, Obey and be Blessed. What part of that don't you understand. lol
They used me as an attendant for many convention and assembly's. The brother in charge of the attendants gathered us together before the convention to give us marching orders mainly because we had a guy run up on the stage and confront the speaker one year. I don't know what he asked him but the brother was dumbfounded. Anyways a brother at the meeting said "do we really need to tell people where to go it pretty obvious where the exit is." The brother in charge said " Brother sheep need to be told where to go."
At my Hall they close the back rooms and turn off the lights, rope off the last 2 rows of seats and control the call in's. Oh and no gum chewing.
 +2 / -0

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Topic Summary
i've been told by a jw friend that when her hall recently had a refurb that big changes were made to the second school.. one, a large sign has been placed on the door telling people not to use it and to sit in the main hall itself.. two,that all the chairs which used to face the large windows looking into the main hall are now side on to the window facing the wall instead.. this is because "so many people were sitting out in there!
people were finding all manner of exhuses to sit-in there and the brothers want us to all be together in the main hall!
" she said.. of course i didn't tell her what i really thought of this but seriously?



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Banned from the second school!
by purrpurr 3 days ago 34 Replies latest 12 hours ago   jw friends
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respectful_observer
respectful_observer 2 days ago

"They roped off the back rows at my hall for a while."
......................
They did this in my hall years ago as well, however there was a legitimate intent behind it. The back rows/sections were always first to be claimed, so when the inevitable single moms with flocks of young kids arrived 5 minutes after the meeting started, they'd have to do the "walk of shame" up to the second row from the front. Then they'd spend the rest of the meeting marching back and forth to the back changing diapers, calming crying babies, etc.
The elders decided to rope off the back two rows for "late arrivals and those with small children". Ruffled some feathers at first, but the young struggling moms really appreciated it.
 +2 / -0
LongHairGal
LongHairGal 2 days ago

Wow, the level of personal control in the Kingdom Halls is unbelievable as this very enjoyable and informative thread shows!
They must be panicking that so many have left and are leaving the religion that they have to give an illusion of fullness to the half-empty halls all over the country and elsewhere. They also see their phone hookup is used by those who just don't want to be there (gee, I wonder why ?)
I feel badly for those ex-teenagers who suffered indignities like the forced haircuts and being made to sit in the front and forced to comment, etc. (sounds like first-grade in grammar school). Yeah, the elders sound like gestapo.
This was just a reminder that I'm SO glad not to be in the Witness religion anymore.
Just to let them know: I'm home, in the FIFTH school, thank you very much!!!
 +2 / -0
kairos
kairos 2 days ago

These restrictions on calling in to hear the meetings have been used in my area for many years.
I've been out since 2013 and they were doing it for a few years prior to my exit. "Only for people that really need it".
Funny thing, I have all three call in numbers for the Napa meetings with passwords. They got lazy and haven't "enforced" restrictions. ( or my wife is on the approve caller list )
I bet the front gate code is still "1914", like every other KH I've attended...
( Maybe they changed it to "2034", who knows )
I wonder if they used to be "1975" at an earlier time.
---
Also at my old hall they decided to make a seat in the hall, "reserved for microphone attendant". ( actual sign attached to seat arm rest )
I came in late one evening, couldn't sit in the back for some reason, and I sat in "the seat".The attendant just about came unhinged. Moved my books and was claiming I was "fighting against the elders and ultimately Jehovah himself".
The meeting was a bit crowded and already underway, so it was causing a bit of a commotion. I sat directly next to him before ultimately leaving early. At one point I even suggested that I go sit with his wife in the empty seat that he had reserved for himself... He no like that one!
But hey, that's Arvid Kron for you.
Yes, the same one that was involved in the judicial mishandling of Ed Villagas, convicted JW child molester in Napa, Ca along with fellow elder David Becker.
Their maniacal attempt at control and cover-up would damage nearly 20 young children, put WT in the national child abuse spotlight and end in a large legal settlement.
I was there. in Napa since 1989.

Things got real serious prior to the court case and they made big efforts to keep all of the details quiet and mislead the locals.
Now it has been reduced to all but local urban legend status...
 +2 / -0
Irish Dame
Irish Dame 14 hours ago
Thanks purrpurr for this interesting thread. When I attended kh sporadically for five years prior to finally waking up a year ago, I would often sit in one of the "school" rooms when I arrived late, sometimes 10 minutes before meeting was over so I could go out to lunch with my (now conditional) friends. I noticed the last few months before my last entering kh, for memorial, April 3, 2015, the rooms were often empty and darkened. I don't know if attendants were directing people away from those rooms, but there were a lot of empty seats in auditorium.
As for the phone call-in lines, I currently have phone numbers and codes for several kh stored in my phone. Some in different time zones. In the past few years, there have been memorial services (watchtower infomercials) for friends in other congregations, so numbers were given to me by relatives and (now conditional) friends. In the past three years, I have been told they are no longer allowed to give these numbers and codes to anyone. This has to be approved by the elders. So, occasionally when I call in to mentally dissect the cult brainwashing to which my relatives are still subjecting themselves, I press *67 so as not to display my name and phone number on caller ID and lose my 'privilege'. Interestingly, in 2010, while the cobe was conducting wt study he called on his elderette wife and she took the opportunity to counsel the entire congregation, as one does, 😊 when she commented, "The faithful slave has made a loving provision by providing the meeting phone call-in arrangement. SOME brothers and sisters abuse this loving provision because they may be a little tired or just not feel like going to the meeting even though they aren't really sick. So, instead of going to meeting they sometimes call in and listen on phone. That provision is NOT for them! It's a provision for those who cannot attend meetings such as homebound elderly or those with severe illnesses. Some use it anyway, but they are not supposed to do that!" I guess she got the congregation told!!
 
 
Naoscillator
Naoscillator 12 hours ago
Here's another take on this: I was personally involved in closing off the back school at our KH. Why? A "brother" who displayed all the tendencies of being a pedophile was grooming little girls back there all meeting long. Sometimes holding them on his lap, bouncing them up and down and just staring at their faces stroking their hair. Where were the parents? Right there. He has been warned and so have the parents. It's too bad others have to be inconvenienced because of this creep.
 

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Topic Summary
i've been told by a jw friend that when her hall recently had a refurb that big changes were made to the second school.. one, a large sign has been placed on the door telling people not to use it and to sit in the main hall itself.. two,that all the chairs which used to face the large windows looking into the main hall are now side on to the window facing the wall instead.. this is because "so many people were sitting out in there!
people were finding all manner of exhuses to sit-in there and the brothers want us to all be together in the main hall!
" she said.. of course i didn't tell her what i really thought of this but seriously?



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Chapter 2 of the Novel "New Boy"
by new boy 7 days ago
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For the struggling faders and control freaks
by dubstepped a month ago
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Help to build a "Guide to Your New Faith"
by Defianttruth 2 months ago
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"Attn Lurkers- Terror, fear and your future- How terror groups and JW.org use similar tactics
by stuckinamovement 5 months ago
dubstepped
Suicide or Real Freedom? - My Story As One Of Jehovah's Witnesses
by dubstepped 5 months ago



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Freedom from Religion
by bobld 2 days ago 8 Replies latest a day ago   jw friends
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bobld
bobld 2 days ago

It should be mandatory for S.C.Justices,judges and attorneys to take a four year course
on the history of religion,bible and the koran.Iam sure they would conclude that religion
has little value in society.There would be no such thing as religious accommodation(lawsuits)
because such values are based on someone's personal belief.

 +4 / -0
Village Idiot
Village Idiot 2 days ago
Everyone should have a comparative religion class while they're in grade school, atheism included. Not to teach any particular religion; I don't believe in anything close to public prayer. It doesn't have to be a four year course; just one semester would be fine.
 +4 / -0
Heaven
Heaven 2 days ago

I agree. The religions of the world are basically lying to their members. I know I was manipulated and maneuvered through the Bible by the JW religion. As a kid you don't have the option of refusing your parent's chosen religion.
Religion is legalized fraud. Once you step outside of the confines of the religion you were born into and take a broader view, it all crumbles.

 +6 / -0
Sanchy
Sanchy 2 days ago

Forcing anyone to do or not do something will accomplish nothing but make the enforcer fall within the same tyrannical structure that the world's organized religions display.
Communist/leftist countries have tried, for almost a century now, to eliminate religion from it's lands. Although they have succeeded to certain extents in doing so, I doubt you would hardly find those places to be the utopias of the planet. Reason being is that ultimately, we must respect human conscience.
For whatever reason one might believe, whether through evolutionary process or because there is indeed a God that created us that way, we humans have displayed an innate necessity for spirituality, a need to connect to a greater good, usually done through worship of our believed deity. We cannot eliminate this through mandate. History has proven it.
Patience and love is key, not Tyranny.

 
Vidiot
Vidiot 2 days ago


Sanchy - "... whether through evolutionary process or because there is indeed a God that created us that way, we humans have displayed an innate necessity for spirituality..."
I don't know about "spiritualty" per se...
x
...but community solidarity? Absolutely.
 
Diogenesister
Diogenesister 2 days ago

t should be mandatory for S.C.Justices,judges and attorneys to take a four year course on the history of religion,bible and the koran.Iam sure they would conclude that religionhas little value in society.

I think you may be surprised how much they do know. Most judges have studied philosophy at an advanced level.... and having done so would find it practically impossible to take the basic premises of, certainly the judaeo-Christianity of the bible, seriously.

Islam is a little trickier as Muslim theologians tend to dissolve arguments from the problem of evil straight away, which together with free will is the first hurdle for a thiest to jump to achieve internal consistency in their belief system.
 
Diogenesister
Diogenesister 2 days ago

Patience and love is key, not Tyranny.
Agreed. Which is precisely why anyone who has considered the situation at all deeply wouldn't advocate laws imposing freedom from religion.
We will get there...to the first two I would add education also!
 
Vidiot
Vidiot 2 days ago

What Diogenesister said.
People in the legal profession tend to be very educated, and the more educated one becomes, the easier one finds deconstructing religious belief.
 
bobld
bobld a day ago

Sanchy
If you want to be a lawyer you require an undergraduate degree
plus attend a 3 year law school that is their choice.No one is forcing
you.They would need some extra course in religious studies.

 

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The JW FUNERAL experience
by Terry 3 days ago 22 Replies latest 3 days ago   jw experiences
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Terry
Terry 3 days ago

Well, it is over. My best Buddy is gone. I attended his funeral this morning.
On Thursday evening, I went to the body "Viewing" and it was "family only." I am part of the family (through marriage) so, I was there.
I was welcomed with joy and enthusiasm like a long lost (Prodigal) sheep. I practically grew up with these folks and have known them either since my teens or shortly thereafter.
I came away from THAT lighter than air and feeling pretty good.
I did break down emotionally seeing my lifelong friend in that coffin. But frankly, I desperately needed that cry. It has been two years since he cut me off (after 34 years of continued friendship after I had been DF'd). So, I've had to adjust to "being dead to him."
His sudden death made no sense to my subconscious mind. The corpse pretty much sorted that one out.
As a result of feeling a part of people's lives again (even under heartbreaking circumstance) without awkward silence on their part (I was hugged, kissed, etc.) I could let my iron protective shield down and see them as human beings once more.
You have no idea HOW WONDERFUL that felt!
_______________-
Today, all the strangers (to me) from Johnny's Jehovah's Witness world were there.
It struck me immediately!
There is a definite dreary depression behind the eyes of the JW's. Of course, I might be projecting this on them myself--but I sincerely doubt it. The people who are my age or a little younger look horribly depleted in spirit, energy, and self-confidence. . . depressed would be the word.
Most have put on too much weight, are pallid, out of shape, slightly frail and definitely wizened!
Ouch!
Am I trying to be nasty? Please don't get that impression from me! I love these folks. I don't want to say anything insulting at all.
All the young people look like trapped animals who just don't belong and don't really want to belong. The Elders have that car salesman air about them and tend to dress badly. Not shabby, mind you, just without taste!
The only friendliness I found was Johnny's kids, who are now in their 30's and 40's.
The attendants had the personalities of car wash personnel.
_________________
I won't go into all the details. I got my feelings hurt rather badly and it's my fault for taking it all to heart.
The fellow who gave the eulogy introduced himself as "Johnny's best friend" and then went on to say, "Everybody who knew Johnny thought they were his best friend." Well, triple bullshit!
Then, a few short anecdotes were given and they were WRONG in the little details I ALONE knew. Yeah, if I sound jealous--I am. I could have delivered one hell of a going away talk and poor Johnny was stuck with these clowns who think they knew him!
The Funeral (religious sales pitch) talk turned my stomach because it was such a typical Hallmark card of evangelizing poo-poo. My skin crawled.
Honest to God, I felt like I was in an asylum filled with people condemned to evaporating life possibilities trying to sell the secret to happiness without having known it themselves!
I won't go on and on about it.
I loved Johnny, I love his widow and kids. He came from a truly kind and amazing family. Whatever denomination he might have embraced--he would have been the same person--except he could have made something great out of himself and his life.



The rest of those people are mannikins with painted expressions. They have the Governing Body's cold, sweaty hands up their ass moving their jaw like a ventriloquist's dummy.
Their attitude and deportment are that of torture survivors hanging in and hanging on to whatever is left.
There is an invisible countdown clock inside their heart. They crave the oblivion of the grave to release them from that ponderous yoke of endless, rat wheel motion--running in place, getting nowhere, with the dagger of Armageddon hanging above them every second of life.



I am so glad I'm not in the clutches of this desperate delusion any longer. Life is slow poison. I am free of them--except in the center of my soul where there is a hole just about the size of Johnny Santa Cruz. That man, that life, that love has dissolved like a cube of sugar in sour lemonade, then pissed away on a dream and a false hope.



I no longer have any reason at all to be anyplace where JW's gather. Johnny was the last excuse. He can't snap out of it now. He can't change his mind. He can't call me on the phone and say--"Hey, I just woke up--let's talk!"
I'll shake off this torpid malaise and walk around in the sunshine this afternoon and keep my eyes on the horizon where death awaits. At least, there won't be any JW's at MY funeral. That is a very good thing indeed--only people who truly, madly, deeply love me for who I really am.
I was in a field of plastic flowers today and I could not stand the dreary falseness of it all. I mean, to live your life as a fake thing is sad and maddening.



 +37 / -0
FayeDunaway
FayeDunaway 3 days ago

Terry that is the best you have ever written.
It is exactly, EXACTLY, like that. That's what it was like being a witness.
I'm glad you were welcomed as part of the family. Those two experiences should have been reversed, so that you could have the authentic one for the last part instead of being left with the lingering taste of plastic.
 +6 / -0
Sail Away
Sail Away 3 days ago
(((Terry))), your expression is so poignant with such immediacy. Please allow yourself to fully grieve. Crying is a good thing.
 +3 / -0
cofty
cofty 3 days ago

Great post Terry.
Wishing you all the best.
 +2 / -0
tornapart
tornapart 3 days ago

really feel for you Terry... can't imagine how I would feel if I lost my lifelong best friend
 +2 / -0
Xanthippe
Xanthippe 3 days ago
To live your life as a fake is sad and maddening but there is nothing fake about you. You write with your whole heart because that's the way you live. Life is what it is, continue to embrace it and delight people with your writing.
 +2 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 3 days ago

Two good comments that standout to me.

They have the Governing Body's cold, sweaty hands up their ass moving their jaw like a ventriloquist's dummy.
I was in a field of plastic flowers today and I could not stand the dreary falseness of it all.
Take care Terry





 +5 / -0
Village Idiot
Village Idiot 3 days ago
Bravo Terry! Sorry to hear about your loss.
 +1 / -0
gma-tired2
gma-tired2 3 days ago
Terry I went to my last JW funeral a year ago. I feltloved by some and new others didnt want to be near me. This last experience will haunt me for life but I needed to say goodbye to my cousin and best friend. You got to say goodbye to your long time friend. You were able to support his family. And your family. Take rime to grieve.
 +3 / -0
wannaexit
wannaexit 3 days ago
Terry: you are a captivating story teller and an eloquent writer. Sorry for your loss.
 +3 / -0

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The JW FUNERAL experience
by Terry 3 days ago 22 Replies latest 3 days ago   jw experiences
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Diogenesister
Diogenesister 3 days ago

Terry you blew me away.
Hallmark card of evangelizing poo-poo
Damn straight - god Ive always hated those cards, now I know why!
They have the Governing Body's cold, sweaty hands up their ass moving their jaw like a ventriloquist's dummy.
Ever time day speaks!
Whatever denomination he might have embraced--he would have been the same person--except he could have made something great out of himself and his life.
Sucks
I am free from them - except at the centre of my soul where there is a hole just about the size of Johnny Santa Cruz
Long may it stay that way...that pain is what makes us human, its a pain the JWs try to take away from us with their preachy funerals and their conditionally loving gods promise...well f@ck them we've earnt that fu#£ing pain from years of loving
 +3 / -0
konceptual99
konceptual99 3 days ago

Sorry for your loss and thank you for a fantastic post
All the very best,
k99
 +2 / -0
kairos
kairos 3 days ago

The only JW funeral I could ever see atteneding would be for my wife.
At this point in my life, I would pass.
Having a small gathering with my actual friends that cared about me, my wife and my life as opposed to a bunch of people I 'used to' know that would be questioning in their minds why I would even bother.
Disgusting and painful.
I'm sorry they stole your friendship from Johnny, Terry.
 +5 / -0
jookbeard
jookbeard 3 days ago
well described Terry , enjoyed that, you are correct in so many ways
 +2 / -0
Diogenesister
Diogenesister 3 days ago

Then, a few short anecdotes were given and they were WRONG in the little details I ALONE knew. Yeah, if I sound jealous--I am. I could have delivered one hell of a going away talk and poor Johnny was stuck with these clowns who think they knew him!
Yes yes a thousand times yes. One more point on the list of JWorg crimes...a grieving family missed out on the fleeting joy of remembrance and a grieving friend deprived of the last service he could have rendered....
 +7 / -0
HappyDad
HappyDad 3 days ago

Thank you Terry for sharing this. I had a friend that I met in 1987 when I was still a dub and hating who I was. At the time I was drinking like crazy and ruining my marriage all because I was fed up with being a JW. I worked with this guy at the new job I started and he was instrumental in getting me sober. Our friendship was greater than any I ever had with JW's and we kept that friendship throughout the years. He died a little over 2 years ago and I was devastated. I cried as if he were my family. He is gone, but what he did for me will never be forgotten.
My condolences to you with you loss.
HappyDad
 +3 / -0
lrkr
lrkr 3 days ago
Terry, your remembrance here was eloquent, poignant and poetic. Absolutely beautiful in its raw truth. So sorry for your loss.
 +2 / -0
stillin
stillin 3 days ago

Nice piece of writing, Terry. I sense that you put your heart into it in honor of your friend. He deserves a better sending-off than the one you went to.
I'm glad for you that you could connect with old friends and acquaintances without the ugly stuff coming to the surface, but your description of the stuff right beneath the surface was spot on!
Thanks for sharing.
 +3 / -0
Terry
Terry 3 days ago

This would be much easier if I could make it black or white. I could love whom I love and hate the rest. But the ones I hate are lovable and the lovable ones have an ugly, cold side waiting to be turned my way. I trust none.
I could love whom I love and hate the rest. But ones I hate are lovable and lovable ones have indifference waiting to be turned my way. So, I trust none.
I see damaged souls twisted this way and that by fear and absolute certainty. Monstrous egos and admirable humility are crammed into them, choc a bloc.
If I cannot sort them easily, how can they, trapped within themselves, find the tie that binds to work the knot toward freedom?
I am saddened while gladdened. I'm beguiled and off put.
I recall camaraderie, handshakes, back patting and smug assuredness. But I cringe at the duplicity and inclination to bully and dismiss with equal ease.
Then the clouds part and the light pours in. Those twisted souls once were human and are human no more. Automatons they are. Doll's eyes hide unthinking obedience in the task they work for their masters.
These people frighten me; half-smiles half-crooked like a picture wire on a nail hung wonky. They'd be as likely to die for me as to see me dead; programmed as they are.
These are Pod people and there are infestations in their gathering. There is plotting and insidious chicanery afoot. Should I run to escape them or are there more in the direction I end up?
These last few days have been an endless spool of nightmares unthreading like a movie reel; a double-feature of death and horror on display. I was one of them. They had me once inside their cold machine. They've tasted my blood. My bitterness never goes away.
I turned that blind corner and the dark flytrap opened. Sweet nectar glistened in my eyes. For an urgent moment, I could smell the scent as I approached.
The tingle in my spine and the twitching of my thumbs brought the old familiar feeling back to mind. This is not my world and I'll never risk it all again on the spin of their illusory roulette. A game for fools; those who win only win regret.
 +5 / -0
Cangie
Cangie 3 days ago

What you have written here over the past few days is the truest and most sincere eulogy in behalf of your best friend, Johnny. True words, true feelings, true love. Thank you for inviting us to "attend" his memorial with you.

RIP Johnny....

 +4 / -0

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Topic Summary
my best buddy is gone.
i attended his funeral this morning.. on thursday evening, i went to the body "viewing" and it was "family only.
" i am part of the family (through marriage) so, i was there.. i was welcomed with joy and enthusiasm like a long lost (prodigal) sheep.



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A.proclaimer
1914, leap years, and sticky math situation
by A.proclaimer 3 months ago
Terry
GOODBYE my oldest and dearest (JW) FRIEND
by Terry 5 days ago
Terry
MY OLDEST FRIEND (JW) is DEAD
by Terry 6 days ago
Terry
When your oldest friend is a JW and they die
by Terry 6 days ago
Terry
Last Night I was surrounded by Jehovah's Witnesses . . .
by Terry 2 days ago



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The JW FUNERAL experience
by Terry 3 days ago 22 Replies latest 3 days ago   jw experiences
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zeb
zeb 3 days ago

Your comment "pallid, out of shape, slightly frail" rings so true. Jw are as a group the most unhealthy group of people. In a cage? tragically yes and resulting in the 'poor pitiful me' syndrome by so many.
My condolences Terry on the loss of your friend.
 +2 / -0
Terry
Terry 3 days ago

Johnny and I used to recite this silly saying when saw each other:
Best best Buddy
Lifelong pal
Protector of the Meek and the Aged
Friend of my childhood
 +2 / -0
Pistoff
Pistoff 3 days ago

Condolences on the loss of you friend, Terry.
 +2 / -0

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Topic Summary
my best buddy is gone.
i attended his funeral this morning.. on thursday evening, i went to the body "viewing" and it was "family only.
" i am part of the family (through marriage) so, i was there.. i was welcomed with joy and enthusiasm like a long lost (prodigal) sheep.



Related Topics
A.proclaimer
1914, leap years, and sticky math situation
by A.proclaimer 3 months ago
Terry
GOODBYE my oldest and dearest (JW) FRIEND
by Terry 5 days ago
Terry
MY OLDEST FRIEND (JW) is DEAD
by Terry 6 days ago
Terry
When your oldest friend is a JW and they die
by Terry 6 days ago
Terry
Last Night I was surrounded by Jehovah's Witnesses . . .
by Terry 2 days ago



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They Found True Love
by ILoveTTATT2 5 days ago 1 Replies latest 5 days ago   jw friends
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ILoveTTATT2
ILoveTTATT2 5 days ago

They found true love.


April 1, 2016
Jehovah’s Witnesses News Service
Jehovah’s Organization has had a high regard for keeping itself clean from sexual sins. This is why we have gone to great lengths to police aspects of the sexuality of all Jehovah’s Witnesses, including the married ones.
Ever since its inception, the Society has been against being gay. For example, basing ourselves on 1 Corinthians 6:9, we said that being gay was condemned in the Bible.
But Jehovah leads us in interesting ways, and He promised that there would be “New Light”.
We didn’t know it back then, but Anthony Morris’s preoccupation with tight pants was actually a revelation from Jehovah.
We fervently have read the Bible, and now we believe, based on the obviously gay story of David and Jonathan, that being gay is ok. Please take the time to read the following Scriptures:
 (1 Samuel 20:17) 17 So Jon′a·than swore again to David because of his love for him; for as he loved his own soul he loved him.
(1 Samuel 18:1-4) 18 And it came about that, as soon as he had finished speaking to Saul, Jon′a·than’s very soul became bound up with the soul of David, and Jon′a·than began to love him as his own soul. 2 Then Saul took him on that day, and he did not allow him to return to his father’s house. 3 And Jon′a·than and David proceeded to conclude a covenant, because of his loving him as his own soul. 4 Further, Jon′a·than stripped himself of the sleeveless coat that was on him and gave it to David, and also his garments, and even his sword and his bow and his belt.
(1 Samuel 19:2) 2 As for Jon′a·than, Saul’s son, he took great delight in David.
(1 Samuel 20:30) 30 Then Saul’s anger grew hot against Jon′a·than and he said to him: “You son of a rebellious maid, do I not well know that you are choosing the son of Jes′se to your own shame and to the shame of the secret parts of your mother?
In this Scripture, the footnote (after the word “choosing”) reads: “You are a partner of,” LXX.
 Lastly, this Scripture:
 (2 Samuel 1:26) 26 I am distressed over you, my brother Jon′a·than, Very pleasant you were to me. More wonderful was your love to me than the love from women.
So we can see that Jonathan and David were lovers, even partners!
Did Jehovah disapprove? No! In fact, he took away the kingdom from Saul and he gave it to David, and even the Messiah came from his lineage!
 Therefore, the Governing Body has decided that gay marriage is approved by Jehovah’s Witnesses. Also, tight pants are allowed, if you are gay.
In fact, Anthony Morris III will marry Stephen Lett, and the ceremony will be broadcasted live at the next AGM.
 Masturbation is still wrong, though.
More info can be found in the following link:
https://sites.google.com/site/laverdadtj2/they-found-true-love
 +2 / -1
LouT8503
LouT8503 5 days ago

Oops, miss-click, I definitely meant to like this one.
"Masturbation is still wrong though" haha
 +2 / -0

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This Week's New Yorker Magazine
by DNCall 4 days ago 11 Replies latest 3 days ago   jw experiences
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DNCall
DNCall 4 days ago
The April 4th issue contains a very well-written and insightful article about the JWs: "God's Work" by Kevin Canty. It's fiction, but on the money as far as the experience of an adolescent reconciling the beliefs with his natural biological urges. Boy, could I relate! Good reading if you can track it down.
 +8 / -0
stillin
stillin 4 days ago
Great writing in that magazine. I read a short article recently. about Trump's rising being a series of mistakes. Tongue-in-cheek and very clever! I wish I had access to the article you're referring to.
 
besty
besty 4 days ago

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/04/04/gods-work
hey DNCall



 +3 / -0
DNCall
DNCall 4 days ago
In a related story: Scotsman Hacks New Yorker Magazine
 
jaydee
jaydee 4 days ago

...........................Cheers...........................


...............thanks for the share.............
 
dubstepped
dubstepped 4 days ago
Wow, very well written. It really captures a lot of JW youth.
 +1 / -0
zeb
zeb 4 days ago
In my case her name wasn't Clara. I was not a jw nor she. would I be young again? eternal question...
 
stillin
stillin 4 days ago
Nice work, Besty. Thanks!
 
Slidin Fast
Slidin Fast 4 days ago
Lovely, yearning, not getting it. He will!
 
Vidiot
Vidiot 4 days ago

This bit really stuck out at me...

"...I want to feel like a whole person..."
 

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This Week's New Yorker Magazine
by DNCall 4 days ago 11 Replies latest 3 days ago   jw experiences
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jaydee
jaydee 3 days ago

for me , the mp3 runs short a few lines for some reason .
did anyone get it complete ?

 +0 / -1
BizzyBee
BizzyBee 3 days ago
Just started subscribing again to the NY (love that mag) and was surprised to start reading the fiction piece and realize it was about US! Very nice. Good piece.
 

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Topic Summary
the april 4th issue contains a very well-written and insightful article about the jws: "god's work" by kevin canty.
it's fiction, but on the money as far as the experience of an adolescent reconciling the beliefs with his natural biological urges.
boy, could i relate!



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I need your feedback re: anti-shunning campaign
by dubstepped 4 days ago 6 Replies latest 4 days ago   jw friends
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dubstepped
dubstepped 4 days ago

Alright, so I posted earlier this week about my desire to put together some sort of campaign to target the friends and family that shun us before the Regional Convention part on shunning. My goal is to produce a postcard that can be mailed out to those that shun us to contrast shunning and love before it is cemented in their minds this summer. I want to make them think twice. Shunning is one hole in the armor because everyone has basic humanity within even if it is covered with JW doctrine.
I also want to make them see what shunning does, and that they are the ones responsible for it, as it is an act carried out by them. JW's like to talk about the devastating effects that it has on them but they never even look at what they're doing to others. I know that realizing what I was doing to my brother by shunning him was a huge part of my journey in waking up.
There is sooooooo much that I want to say on the subject of shunning, but I can't say it all. Our friends and family won't read some long diatribe. I sat down and wrote so many different things and nothing flowed until the poem that came out below. It just came to me without trying, something that often helps me see that I must be letting some feelings out, something I wanted to do with this.
So, let me know what you think of what I've written. I'm hoping that it, if written on a postcard with something to catch their eye, will be read by the recipient. Poems aren't everyone's thing, but can be hard to put down if you get a glimpse and they apply to you in some way. I've tried to hit both the Bible's view of love and contrast it with shunning.
Is this something you'd send to your parents, siblings, friends, etc. that shun you if put on a postcard. I like postcards because you can't not read them. They will catch your eye without any effort from you when you pull them from your mailbox. Let me know what you think. I have to admit to feeling a little vulnerable putting a poem out there like this, but it is what it is and flowed from the heart and I hope it might be of use. I hope my formatting sticks here:



God is love

Love is kind
Why would you choose to
Leave your loved ones behind
If you greet your brothers only
What extraordinary thing have you done
Forgive up to seventy seven times
Never did Jesus shun
As kids we weren't given choices
There was pressure to decide
Shunning due to child baptism
Leads many to suicide
My relationship with God
Is mine, not of your own
So what right do you have
To choose to disown
Shunning is emotional blackmail
The opposite of love
It is control exercised by man
Painful for all, not reflective of God above
We are the shunned
The loved ones you shame
You are the ones that shun
We will not accept the blame.
 +9 / -0
ZAPPA-ESQUE
ZAPPA-ESQUE 4 days ago

Lovely Poem for your campaign !
Don't say too much ! Have you ever seen the glazing-over of the eyes of a Dub whose core beliefs have just been challenged ? And be sure to direct them to a source of good info: eg JW-Facts/
 +3 / -0
Sugar Shane
Sugar Shane 4 days ago

Go to Zazzle.com and make decals. They also do cards, T-shirts, coffee mugs, and baseball caps. It's quick, cheap & easy. I 'designed' the decal shown below in about 15 minutes (screenshot from my I-phone). I simply found the JW Facts logo online, uploaded it to their site, and now I've got a stack of convenient JWFacts.com stickers enroute to my mail box.

 +1 / -0
dubstepped
dubstepped 4 days ago
Thanks, but I'm not interested in putting any apostate sites or stickers on my campaign. It will only serve to shut most JW's down. I'm trying to keep it to reason alone. They can find those sites easy if they care to look. I want to keep it strictly about love vs. shunning.
 +4 / -0
NeverKnew
NeverKnew 4 days ago
So is it your goal to give these postcards to people with disfellowshipped or disassociated family members or are you giving this to everybody involved in that which I call the shunning ministry?
 
dubstepped
dubstepped 4 days ago
Make the postcards available to people like myself who are currently shunned (whether DA'd or DF'ed) so that they can send them to their believing JW relatives to plant seeds of doubt before the shunning talk to be given at the conventions.
 +3 / -0
Giordano
Giordano 4 days ago

My goal is to produce a postcard that can be mailed out to those that shun us to contrast shunning and love before it is cemented in their minds this summer.
The poem is very inspiring........ congratulations.
It inspired me to use some of your points and some I have thought about to frame a slightly different message. This is probably what I would send.
"Shunning is not an act of love.....it is an act of torture.
Did Jesus shun? Never. Did he torture? Never.
As kids we agreed to a life long contract at an age when we would never have been encouraged to marry, or even drink. So many of the things we were 'expected' to believe have changed........ but not our life long contract and not shunning.
Shunning has only gotten worse as no one can escape the Society and leave the religion without being punished.
Worse still......... you are also being punished for what I may have said or thought or did because you are being forced to shun or you will be shunned in turn. That's called coercion and to coerce someone is a criminal act. Why does your religion coerce it's loyal followers?
I am a captive who will continue to be shunned and you are a captive forced to do the shunning until the day we die."






 +3 / -0

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bobld
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Freedom from Religion
by bobld in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 2 days ago
it should be mandatory for s.c.justices,judges and attorneys to take a four year course.

on the history of religion,bible and the koran.iam sure they would conclude that religion.

has little value in society.there would be no such thing as religious accommodation(lawsuits).

Diogenesister
Vidiot
bobld
a day ago
purrpurr
34
Banned from the second school!
by purrpurr in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 3 days ago
i've been told by a jw friend that when her hall recently had a refurb that big changes were made to the second school.. one, a large sign has been placed on the door telling people not to use it and to sit in the main hall itself.. two,that all the chairs which used to face the large windows looking into the main hall are now side on to the window facing the wall instead.. this is because "so many people were sitting out in there!

people were finding all manner of exhuses to sit-in there and the brothers want us to all be together in the main hall!

" she said.. of course i didn't tell her what i really thought of this but seriously?

kairos
Irish Dame
Naoscillator
13 hours ago
BlackWolf
32
I can't take it anymore!
by BlackWolf in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 3 days ago
my dad was recently made an elder about maybe 6 months ago, and now he is never around he's always at work or doing some kind of jw crap.

now he conducts the watchtower study and is even doing the special talk tommorow.

he's become an even more strict controlling jerk than he was before, and i'm never allowed to go out and do anything non jw related because he doesn't have the time.

FayeDunaway
Londo111
Stealth
a day ago
Terry
22
The JW FUNERAL experience
by Terry in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Personal Experiences & Reunions
 3 days ago
my best buddy is gone.

i attended his funeral this morning.. on thursday evening, i went to the body "viewing" and it was "family only.

" i am part of the family (through marriage) so, i was there.. i was welcomed with joy and enthusiasm like a long lost (prodigal) sheep.

zeb
Terry
Pistoff
3 days ago
Wild_Thing
7
JW.ORG Channel on Roku
by Wild_Thing in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 4 days ago
on my roku box, i went to the most popular channels and there sits jw.org.

it has a rating of 5 stars with over 43,000 reviews!

more than the nbc news channel, and more than the history channel.

Vidiot
Gayle
steve2
15 hours ago
Divergent
29
Amazing Growth! Jehovah Is Blessing The Preaching Work!
by Divergent in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 4 days ago
today's text:.

saturday, april 2. the little one will become a thousand.—isa.

60:22.. perhaps we live in an area where there are few witnesses or where we do not see a lot of immediate results in our preaching work.

sir82
Heaven
Vidiot
2 days ago
dubstepped
6
I need your feedback re: anti-shunning campaign
by dubstepped in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 4 days ago
alright, so i posted earlier this week about my desire to put together some sort of campaign to target the friends and family that shun us before the regional convention part on shunning.

my goal is to produce a postcard that can be mailed out to those that shun us to contrast shunning and love before it is cemented in their minds this summer.

i want to make them think twice.

NeverKnew
dubstepped
Giordano
4 days ago
DNCall
11
This Week's New Yorker Magazine
by DNCall in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Personal Experiences & Reunions
 4 days ago
the april 4th issue contains a very well-written and insightful article about the jws: "god's work" by kevin canty.

it's fiction, but on the money as far as the experience of an adolescent reconciling the beliefs with his natural biological urges.

boy, could i relate!

Vidiot
jaydee
BizzyBee
3 days ago
ILoveTTATT2
1
They Found True Love
by ILoveTTATT2 in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 5 days ago
they found true love..

april 1, 2016.

jehovah’s witnesses news service.

LouT8503
5 days ago
disillusioned 2
14
Out on Facebook
by disillusioned 2 in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Personal Experiences & Reunions
 5 days ago
i am just venting because my sister has put on facebook that i am no longer "in the truth"!

i have kept a very low profile for years and have silently faded.

many witnesses i have bumped into are very friendly towards me, some from other congregations may not even be aware that i dont go anymore.

FayeDunaway
Skedaddle
disillusioned 2
4 days ago
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A Sincere Question Regarding Macroevolution
by JACOB Meza 2 days ago 14 Replies latest 5 hours ago   jw friends
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JACOB Meza
JACOB Meza 2 days ago

Hello everyone,
I have a sincere question related to Macroevolution:
Microevolution happens on a small scale (within a single population), while macroevolution happens on a scale that transcends the boundaries of a single species. Despite their differences, evolution at both of these levels relies on the same, established mechanisms of evolutionary change:
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/evoscales_01
Question:
Have scientists ever been able to recreate or virtually witness a Macroevolution type jump that "transcends the boundaries of a single species"?
 
FayeDunaway
FayeDunaway 2 days ago

When I was a witness I was surprised witnesses never conceded to microevolution, because obviously witnesses can believe in it, but they would never say that in their literature. Maybe it was to avoid problems, maybe it was ignorance.
I think the platypus might be a living example of macroevolution.
 
Vidiot
Vidiot 2 days ago


Jacob_Meza - "Have scientists ever been able to recreate or virtually witness a Macroevolution type jump that 'transcends the boundaries of a single species'?"
Not yet.
It'd be really difficult simply due to the immense amount of time it takes for it to happen (a possible exception might be the field of observing the evolutionary development of bacteriological strains, which has been demonstrated as much faster).
One can, however, reasonably conclude it does indeed happen, simply as a natural long-term extension of ongoing microevolution (which scientists have seen).
 +1 / -0
ILoveTTATT2
ILoveTTATT2 2 days ago

There have been many documented, visible cases of speciation. These usually occur in small living things, like mosquitoes, bacteria, etc because of the short time it takes for them to have a new generation (some bacteria can duplicate as fast as every 20 minutes). Because changes big enough for it to be considered a speciation event take possibly thousands of generations, it is very difficult to observe speciation in a human lifetime.
Even at 20 minutes and 1000 generations, it would take almost two weeks for an appreciable change to occur. If the change happens within 10,000 generations and the time between generations is an hour, it would take 1 year and 52 days...
This experiment with E. Coli takes about 4 years for every 10,000 generations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._coli_long-term_evolution_experiment
The E.Coli bacteria evolved new features!
This is another experiment that shows that unicellular life can evolve into multicellular:
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v517/n7536/full/517531d.html

 +1 / -0
cofty
cofty 2 days ago

Have scientists ever been able to recreate or virtually witness a Macroevolution type jump that "transcends the boundaries of a single species"?
Hi Jacob.
There is no such thing as a "jump" in evolution. Imagine a population of the same species that becomes separated by a geological event such as the breakup of Gondwana. The two new populations can no longer interbreed. Over a long period of time both populations begin to evolve in different ways. Eventually the reach a point where even if they were to meet again successful breeding would be impossible.
A comparison between the 223 species of marsupials in Australia and the thousands of species of placental mammal elsewhere is a good example of this sort of process...
Defining a species is also fraught with difficulties and exceptions.
Speciation happens over long periods of time. The reasons that scientists know that it has happened millions of times come from multiple lines of evidence. DNA comparison, transitional fossils, biogeography and comparative anatomy are perhaps the most compelling.
A lot of further details can be found here...
 
cofty
cofty 2 days ago

Further to TATT2's example about Lenski's experiment with E coli here is a description....
The experiment was an amazing piece of work that is still ongoing.
 +1 / -0
dgeero
dgeero 2 days ago
Microevolution and Macroevolution are creationists terms. There is just evolution. The only difference is the scale of time.
 +4 / -1
Vidiot
Vidiot 2 days ago


ILoveTTATT2 - "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._coli_long-term_evolution_experiment
The E.Coli bacteria evolved new features!"
This was what I was referring to in my previous post, but I hadn't read about it too recently.
I'm curious... were the latest "generations" genetically removed enough (from their several-years-plus predecessors) to legitimately classify them as a different/separate species?
 
Vidiot
Vidiot 2 days ago

Personally, I think the most interesting evolution-related research is Jack Horner's spearheaded attempt to reverse-engineer a small dinosaur from a chicken embryo:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Horner_(paleontologist) (scroll down to the "Build a Dinosaur Project" heading)
Very cool stuff.
 +1 / -0
Coded Logic
Coded Logic 7 hours ago

Have scientists ever been able to recreate or virtually witness a Macroevolution type jump that "transcends the boundaries of a single species"?



I guess the first question we should ask is what would you consider to be "macroevolution" and what would you consider as being a "jump" or "transcendent"?
If you're having a hard time with the question it's probably because things like "micro-evolution" and "macro-evolution" are not scientific terms. They're not even defined at all. It's a bit like a creationist who asserts that animals can't be bred into a different "kinds". They're just hiding behind vague language so that no matter what evidence is provided they can always move the goal post further out.
However, "species" is a scientific term. It's any set of animals that are capable of producing viable offspring together. And "sub-species" is a group of animals that can mate but who do not usually interbreed in nature due to geographic isolation, sexual selection, or other factors.
For example, lions and tigers shared a common ancestor about two million years ago. But, due to geographic isolation (separation of Africa from Asia), the two populations were no longer able to breed and evolution went two separate directions. While they're different species their genetics are still very similar and they can be bred to produce Ligers - but those offspring are sterile. In a few more eons of genetic mutation and natural selection (aka evolution) the two populations wont be able to breed at all. All species are transient. There's no "final" form.
So the question is, at what point would you consider it "macro-evolution"? How different do lions and tigers have to be for us to consider it a "jump"?
I'll give you a good analogy for this. Both Italy and France have Latin speaking populations. But due to geographic and national separation the two populations started speaking differently. Over hundreds and hundreds of years, we ended up with the French and Italian languages. Both are Latin based - but are very different. So when did a Latin speaking mother give birth to a French speaking child?
We all know this is an absurd question. It was the entire accumulation of changes in words that made French a different language than Latin. There wasn't any single event or generation in which it happened. The same is true of evolution. And why the terms "micro-evolution" and "macro-evolution" are meaningless.
If you want to learn more on this I suggest you do a little research on Allele Frequencies. Here's a great starter video on the subject:



Hope this is helpful :smile:



 

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A Sincere Question Regarding Macroevolution
by JACOB Meza 2 days ago 14 Replies latest 5 hours ago   jw friends
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JACOB Meza
JACOB Meza 7 hours ago

@coded logic:
You said:
If you're having a hard time with the question it's probably because things like "micro-evolution" and "macro-evolution" are not scientific terms. They're not even defined at all.
If they are not scientific terms, why is my link (Berkeley) showing them defined?


 
ILoveTTATT2
ILoveTTATT2 6 hours ago
While such evolutionary biologists Theodosius Dobzhansky, Bernhard Rensch and Ernst Mayruse the term, many neo-Darwinian do not, preferring instead to talk of evolution as changes in allele frequencies without mention of the level of the changes (above species level or below). Use of the term is most common in the continental European traditions (as Dobzhansky, Mayr, Rensch, Goldschmidt and Schindewolf were) and less common in the Anglo-American tradition (such as John Maynard Smith and Richard Dawkins). Hence, use of the term "macroevolution" is sometimes wrongly used as a litmus test of whether the writer is "properly" neo-Darwinian or not.[6]
 
Vanderhoven7
Vanderhoven7 6 hours ago

"When I was a witness I was surprised witnesses never conceded to microevolution"
I don't think most Creationists accept micro-evolution; that new information is added to DNA, although they would accept chromosomal aberrations and loss of information; more of a biological devolution rather than an evolution.
"Structural Aberrations
These occur due to a loss or genetic material, or a rearrangement in the location of the genetic material. They include: deletions, duplications, inversions, ring formations, and translocations.
◦Deletions: A portion of the chromosome is missing or deleted. Known disorders include Wolf-Hirschhorn syndrome, which is caused by partial deletion of the short arm of chromosome 4; and Jacobsen syndrome, also called the terminal 11q deletion disorder.
◦Duplications: A portion of the chromosome is duplicated, resulting in extra genetic material. Known disorders include Charcot-Marie-Tooth disease type 1A which may be caused by duplication of the gene encoding peripheral myelin protein 22 (PMP22) on chromosome 17.
◦Translocations: When a portion of one chromosome is transferred to another chromosome. There are two main types of translocations. In a reciprocal translocation, segments from two different chromosomes have been exchanged. In a Robertsonian translocation, an entire chromosome has attached to another at the centromere; these only occur with chromosomes 13, 14, 15, 21 and 22.
◦Inversions: A portion of the chromosome has broken off, turned upside down and reattached, therefore the genetic material is inverted.
◦Rings: A portion of a chromosome has broken off and formed a circle or ring. This can happen with or without loss of genetic material.
◦Isochromosome: Formed by the mirror image copy of a chromosome segment including the centromere.
Structural aberrations also include some disorders which are characterized by chromosomal instability and breakage. One example, is the creation of a fragile site on the X Chromosome - Fragile X syndrome. Boys are worse affected by this because they only have one X-Chromosome but even in girls, Fragile X syndrome can cause learning difficulties.
Most chromosome anomalies occur as an accident in the egg or sperm, and are therefore not inherited. The anomaly is present in every cell of the body.Some anomalies, however, can happen after conception, resulting in mosaicism (where some cells have the anomaly and some do not). Chromosome anomalies can be inherited from a parent or be "de novo". This is why chromosome studies are often performed on parents when a child is found to have an anomaly.
 
Coded Logic
Coded Logic 6 hours ago

Was just looking at that JM. Probably because the page is written by a librarian and not a proper academic. The only scientific paper I can find that uses the term "macro-evolution" is this one:
https://bfg.oxfordjournals.org/content/12/5/430.full
But as it was originally written in German the word is more likely an issue of translation than actual scientific usage.
None the less, I don't care about the "properness" of a word. What I care about is what you mean when you use the word - which is why the very first thing I asked you was "what would you consider to be "macroevolution" and what would you consider as being a "jump" or "transcendent"?"
If you have a definition you find useful please provide it and I will do my best to answer your question :)



 
kaik
kaik 5 hours ago
Macroevolution can be observed over a long period of time, but much longer than humanity can record its knowledge. Microevolution was already observed in various diseases caused by bacteria and virus. Syphilis, HIV and other pathogens have been observed to change over the small period of time. Macroevolution from Ice Age, had changed many large species in time of 12000 years. You will not recognize majority of cultivated products from apples to prunes to hops from the original plants that existed just 7000 years ago.

 

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Topic Summary
i have a sincere question related to macroevolution:.
microevolution happens on a small scale (within a single population), while macroevolution happens on a scale that transcends the boundaries of a single species.
despite their differences, evolution at both of these levels relies on the same, established mechanisms of evolutionary change:.



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by cofty 2 months ago
bohm
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by bohm 3 months ago
LAWHFol
Does God Exist? / Who is God? These are Questions which Lead nowhere. What is God Like, is the Correct Question.
by LAWHFol 6 months ago
MarkofCane
My Story "Act 2"
by MarkofCane 3 months ago



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Special talk outline or highlights?
by stephanie61092 2 days ago 9 Replies latest a day ago   jw friends
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stephanie61092
stephanie61092 2 days ago

Hello,
I apologize if this has already been covered but I've actually had a really busy, fun weekend with friends AND family and i haven't been online.
That being said, I missed the special talk yesterday. Does anyone have the outline or highlights of the talk? I would really like to take notes and have them. Just as a little insurance if my JC tried to call me out on not attending.
Thank you in advance!
Steph
 +1 / -0
sir82
sir82 2 days ago

"Special" talk is scheduled for April 10.
But even if you don't attend, you still won't be "missing" anything.

 +2 / -0
freddo
freddo 2 days ago

@sir82
"Round our way" (UK) it was April 3rd ... as in second weekend after the memorial.
 +1 / -0
Listener
Listener 2 days ago

This might be of some help.
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/4d7okn/special_talk_rebuttal_how_can_we_trust_the_bible/

 +1 / -0
MarkofCane
MarkofCane 2 days ago
It was yesterday April 3rd. My wife comes home from meeting and says " you know you missed the special talk?" I said "wasn't it just an over zealous recruiting session for the memorial victims?" She just rolled her eyes at me.
 +4 / -0
BluesBrother
BluesBrother 2 days ago

Actually the special talk was not "Can We Trust The Bible" ... It was "Are You On The Road To Everlasting Life" ....at least, that is what we heard.
This link has it :
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/448310001/2016-special-talk-you-on-road-everlasting-life?page=1&size=10

 +2 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 2 days ago

This talk outline, as with all previous "special talk" outlines will now just be included in the rotating roster of regularly redelivered talks each week.
 +1 / -0
sir82
sir82 2 days ago


My wife comes home from meeting and says " you know you missed the special talk?"
Perfect reply would have been:
"Well, I wouldn't say I missed it, dear."

 +6 / -0
daringhart13
daringhart13 a day ago
LOL LOL as someone that has given several 'special' talks, I can tell you that you didn't miss a thing.....
 +2 / -0
baker
baker a day ago
they actually talked about a real person for at least 10 minutes named Stephen Mcdowell, who left the streets of LA to go to Bethel. Not like in the WT where it talks about CHANTEL, who live in France, orJoel who lives in Australia orOctavia who lives in Britain, or Marco wh lives in Italy, none who can be googled or verified if they really were quoted correctly...
 +1 / -0

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If a proposed bill in Mexico passes, new law will mean jailtime for JW´s
by ILoveTTATT2 2 days ago 21 Replies latest a day ago   jw friends
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ILoveTTATT2
ILoveTTATT2 2 days ago

Apparently it's true!! OMG!!
I did not want to believe these news, I still feel it's a hoax, it can't be true!
But it appeared in a news outlet I sort of respect, and as I write this it seems to be appearing in dozens of other news outlets in Mexico (it seems like the story was confirmed and is breaking today).
Below is the translation of the article:

"Jailtime for those who preach at inappropriate hours"
"Law will be discussed that will impose a fine upon those that have a high volume during worship."
"Next 25th of may in the Senate of the Republic a law will be debated to protect the home that will impose fines or charges of up to 6 weeks in jail to those that preach the word of God at inappropriate hours.
"This initiative constitutes a violation of freedom of religion", indicated Samuel Carrillo Gonzalez, director of Religious Affairs. He added that they have solicited Daniel Rivera, subdirector of Religious Affaris of the Government Secretary, information about the position he will take regarding this.
The law also will impose fines upon the congregations that have high volume at the time they're having their services, or if they are on the streets visiting homes to look for recruits to certain religions or in any way bothering people walking, stopping in the same manner the actions of bill collectors or even the police itself and everyone that dares to violate the integrity of the family.
http://www.debate.com.mx/mexico/Carcel-a-quien-predique-en-horas-impropias-20160404-0020.html

 +1 / -0
NeverKnew
NeverKnew 2 days ago

Crap. Where's iPhones Google translator for the dumb Americans who either
1. only know one language or
2 believe everyone should speak English.
I only belong to the first group by the way.
 +1 / -3
ILoveTTATT2
ILoveTTATT2 2 days ago
I translated the entire article... um... why do you need Google Translator?
 
NeverKnew
NeverKnew 2 days ago

OH! That was the translated version? I thought you gave a synopsis.
So no mention of what the hours would be then?
I got hit last weekend at 9:30 AM. Bathrobe stinky breath and all.
 
Londo111
Londo111 2 days ago
To me, this is bad news. The organization loves to play the Persecution Card. And it puts the lowly rank and file members who are suffering the most in a bind. Rather than jail time, the government should fine the Branch office. 
 +19 / -0
Watchtower-Free
Watchtower-Free 2 days ago
BTTT
 
ILoveTTATT2
ILoveTTATT2 2 days ago
I totally agree Londo, this is a baaaad idea.
 +2 / -0
sir82
sir82 2 days ago

Agree with Londo.
This bill would suit the Org just fine. They get martyrs for the cause, so they can bewail "Satan's persecution" and gain sympathy points from their adherents.
Meanwhile, the assets of the Org and its precious reputation remain untouched.
Jail time for branch committee members? Fines on the corporation producing the literature used? Now we're talking! That would get the Org's attention right quick.

 +8 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot 2 days ago

It's funny.
If a bill like that had ever passed back during the WT's "Golden Age", the Org would have immediately directed the R&F to deliberately go out and preach D2D in direct defiance of it.
These days, though, they'd be way too chicken. :smirk:
 +6 / -0
ILoveTTATT2
ILoveTTATT2 2 days ago

These days, though, they'd be way too chicken.
Not the Mexican JW's!! I think they will fight this tooth and nail!
 

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If a proposed bill in Mexico passes, new law will mean jailtime for JW´s
by ILoveTTATT2 2 days ago 21 Replies latest a day ago   jw friends
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NeverKnew
NeverKnew 2 days ago

Well... I'm really curious as to the timeframe. If they are saying preach between 10 and say 7 and anything outside those boundaries is outside of the law, why is that so horrible? It's for their protection too!
In my borough we have a noise ordinance that mandates that lawn mowing only be done between 8 or 9 and sundown.
I'm not in Mexico but it doesn't seem so unreasonable to me.
 +1 / -0
baker
baker 2 days ago

Mexico should outlaw the drug cartels first, those that shoot thousands and kidnap school kids and execute them. Maybe they should try to outlaw monopolies like their gas and phone companies first. Make their country a safe place to live first. Maybe pass a law against Priests that molest children.,or just hit them





 +2 / -1
steve2
steve2 2 days ago

Baker I am so with you on your post!
Mexico is ravaged by deadly drug cartels whose monstrous acts have shaken the fabric of society to its core - and some dull-minded legislater wants to impose fines/jail time for anyone preaching at "inappropriate" hours?!
For f*cks sake- what a back-to-front country! Mind you, it has yet to even be discussed at government level so this is early days.
Let's hope it gets laughed out of further "consideration".
 +2 / -1
Vidiot
Vidiot 2 days ago


ILoveTTATT2 - "Not the Mexican JW's!! I think they will fight this tooth and nail!"
I'm sure they would.
I was, however, talking about the WT leadership (who are most definately not Mexican).
 
TimDrake1914
TimDrake1914 2 days ago
There was another article that was a little more in depth about this specific proposal. It not only targets religions, but even police officers and any other door-to-door merchants who's persistent knockings can be considered harassment. Looking at it from a neutral point of view, I have a hard time seeing this passed as it clearly infringes on religious rights. However, I'm not well versed on Mexican laws so I'm only looking at it from a US perspective. Looking at it from a biased point of view, I really hope it passes to see how WT will spin this. More than likely, it will get people thinking that the "Great Tribulation" is upon us, and I would love to point out how, even from WT's perspective, it is totally out of line with their predicted sequence of events. I can already see the look of cognitive dissonance that will overtake their faces when they realize how it just doesn't add up, until they find a way to rationalize it.
 +2 / -0
WingCommander
WingCommander 2 days ago
The GB's answer (like in the past): Just bribe more Mexican officials to look the other way. Theocratic Warfare and all.

 +2 / -0
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 2 days ago


If a proposed bill in Mexico passes, new law will mean jailtime for JW´s
"Next 25th of may in the Senate of the Republic a law will be debated to protect the home that will impose fines or charges of up to 6 weeks in jail to those that preach the word of God at inappropriate hours.
Oh the Horror!..
JW`s will be Forced to Behave like Civilized Human Beings..
Enforced Common Courtesy will Erode the JW Way of Life..
It`s Persecution of "Jehovah`s People" at it`s Worst!..
.

.................................Image result for jw.org broadcasting logo
......Image result for breaking newshttp://i.imgur.com/MmBKV8X.gif?noredirect
.............Please Stand By as We Find Another WBT$ /JW Announcer..
...............................To Report Breaking News From Mexico..

 +4 / -4
dropoffyourkeylee
dropoffyourkeylee a day ago
There have been cases where thieves or criminals have pretended to be JWs to scope out neighborhoods, etc. maybe that is what they are going after. The JWs shouldn't be out after usual hours anyway.
 
baker
baker a day ago
I wouldn't be surprised if terrorist used the cart system to sneak in a bomb to crowded places
 
ILoveTTATT2
ILoveTTATT2 a day ago

I called both newspapers that had the note, and, in an appalling display of lack of fact-checking (welcome to Mexico), there is no actual source for the news.
I called the Mexican senate and apparently it is not possible to know what will be discussed in the future unless the senator who plans to introduce the bill tells you.
I don't know how to confirm, but I would really love to confirm if this is real or not.
 

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Topic Summary
apparently it's true!!
omg!!.
i did not want to believe these news, i still feel it's a hoax, it can't be true!.



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JWs have more good points than bad
by lsw1961 5 months ago



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If a proposed bill in Mexico passes, new law will mean jailtime for JW´s
by ILoveTTATT2 2 days ago 21 Replies latest a day ago   jw friends
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Listener
Listener a day ago
Outlaw, that clip is awful.
 
ILoveTTATT2
ILoveTTATT2 a day ago

I am not almost 100% convinced that the story is fake.
Checking the original source of the story, it seems to be a fake news site with the quality of National Enquirer.
Then many other low-quality sources started copying it.
Today was different, a "decent" quality source had it and so I thought it was true. But I called that newspaper, and the newspaper from which that newspaper got its story, and here's the thing:
Zocalo newspaper - the lady that wrote the article refused to give me her source.
El Debate newspaper - the editor said that she agreed with me that there was a problem with the story because Zocalo did not list its sources and there has been no official word on the news story on the Senate.
 +1 / -0

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Topic Summary
apparently it's true!!
omg!!.
i did not want to believe these news, i still feel it's a hoax, it can't be true!.



Related Topics
mtwtf
Misleading The Australian Royal Commission
by mtwtf 8 months ago
blondie
Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 09-20-2015 WT Study (LOYALTY)
by blondie 7 months ago
The Truth Shall Set Us FREE!
Russia's 'Foreign Agents' Risk Losing Right to Run Media
by The Truth Shall Set Us FREE! 7 months ago
blondie
Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 11-22-2015 WT Study (God Loves us?)
by blondie 4 months ago
lsw1961
JWs have more good points than bad
by lsw1961 5 months ago



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Sad but well written article about 14 JW Blood Martyr...
by tresdecu 2 days ago 1 Replies latest 2 days ago   jw friends
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tresdecu
tresdecu 2 days ago

Maybe this was posted before on JWD, but I just came across it. It will make you mad, but hopefully more awareness will make people see this religion as the dangerous cult that it is:

http://kuow.org/post/when-14-year-old-chooses-die-because-religion-can-anyone-stop-him
 
Village Idiot
Village Idiot 2 days ago
You might want to change your title to include the words "years old". Your title seems to say that there are 14 martyrs.
 +1 / -0

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JACOB Meza
14
A Sincere Question Regarding Macroevolution
by JACOB Meza in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 2 days ago
i have a sincere question related to macroevolution:.

microevolution happens on a small scale (within a single population), while macroevolution happens on a scale that transcends the boundaries of a single species.

despite their differences, evolution at both of these levels relies on the same, established mechanisms of evolutionary change:.

Vanderhoven7
Coded Logic
kaik
5 hours ago
ILoveTTATT2
21
If a proposed bill in Mexico passes, new law will mean jailtime for JW´s
by ILoveTTATT2 in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 2 days ago
apparently it's true!!

omg!!.

i did not want to believe these news, i still feel it's a hoax, it can't be true!.

ILoveTTATT2
Listener
ILoveTTATT2
a day ago
stephanie61092
9
Special talk outline or highlights?
by stephanie61092 in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 2 days ago
i apologize if this has already been covered but i've actually had a really busy, fun weekend with friends and family and i haven't been online.

that being said, i missed the special talk yesterday.

does anyone have the outline or highlights of the talk?

sir82
daringhart13
baker
a day ago
purrpurr
12
Twilight and other banned media
by purrpurr in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 2 days ago
thanks to online media of movies and books i've recently been watching the twilight series.

issues of quality aside i enjoyed it enough.

i mostly wanted to see what the fuss was about and have the fun of seeing a movie that was banned from the platform when it came out.

ttdtt
SecretSlaveClass
Doubtfully Yours
15 hours ago
The Rebel
3
Why I quit the Watchtower, and why I could return.
by The Rebel in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 2 days ago
the wicked rat race of the watchtower claimed another victim.

despite conducting 5 bible studies, and distributing thousands of magazines, i decided the pressure of being super pious was just to heavy for me, and i decided to just cool it.

this is when i discovered the business is full of people who are " not very nice" .

stuckinarut2
Heaven
The Rebel
2 days ago
The Rebel
16
Why do so many people believe in psychic powers?
by The Rebel in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 2 days ago
as an ex-witness i have enjoyed becoming open to other people's views and understanding.

therefore this o.p is on the subject of psychic powers.

my own exsperience i can't explain rationally, but as a child many times i had dreams that came true in detail, yet many may explain it away as deja vu.

SecretSlaveClass
FayeDunaway
C0ntr013r
20 hours ago
Terry
14
Last Night I was surrounded by Jehovah's Witnesses . . .
by Terry in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Personal Experiences & Reunions
 2 days ago
last night was the "body viewing" at the funeral home for the jw whose friendship and influence resulted in my getting baptised in 1963. we weren't just friends.

we had a david & jonathan bromance :) no seriously, we loved each other dearly.. it's only in the last 2 years he shunned me.

before that, he would sneak behind the curtain of stealth, so to speak, and we'd sit for hours each and every week chatting, reminiscing and sometimes arguing about the truth about the "truth.".

Finkelstein
Terry
Finkelstein
17 hours ago
Sabin
21
"mum, i been naughty, i'm disfellowshipped."
by Sabin in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 2 days ago
so last night we get a phone call from our girl & she tells me the above.

turns out she has been d'ed for a month.

infact she made me turn off the speaker phone so her dad wouldn't hear & i could tell him quietly later.

Slidin Fast
Vidiot
Giordano
2 days ago
tresdecu
1
Sad but well written article about 14 JW Blood Martyr...
by tresdecu in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 2 days ago
maybe this was posted before on jwd, but i just came across it.

it will make you mad, but hopefully more awareness will make people see this religion as the dangerous cult that it is:.

http://kuow.org/post/when-14-year-old-chooses-die-because-religion-can-anyone-stop-him.

Village Idiot
2 days ago
bobld
8
Freedom from Religion
by bobld in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 2 days ago
it should be mandatory for s.c.justices,judges and attorneys to take a four year course.

on the history of religion,bible and the koran.iam sure they would conclude that religion.

has little value in society.there would be no such thing as religious accommodation(lawsuits).

Diogenesister
Vidiot
bobld
a day ago
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bradford
10
JW Tattoos
by bradford in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 12 hours ago
i'm sure there are countless opinions on whether you should get a tattoo or not.

my personal view is that if you were to get one it should mean something.. anyone get a tattoo to remember their jw roots?

i was thinking of getting a tetragrammaton somewhere.

bradford
disfellowshipped1
Finkelstein
an hour ago
Naoscillator
5
Feeling Jealous of True Believers
by Naoscillator in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Personal Experiences & Reunions
 16 hours ago
what a simple life it is to be a true believer.

the cocksureness of people who never for a moment question their core beliefs is something i have come to envy.

it's altogether foreign, but it sure looks nice over on the other side.. why do some people step into the void of uncertainty while others do everything in their power never to even go near it?

Naoscillator
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DesirousOfChange
14 hours ago
stuckinarut2
12
Feeling Betrayed?
by stuckinarut2 in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Personal Experiences & Reunions
 19 hours ago
this is the way many of us feel no doubt: feeling like we have been betrayed by a faith that has hidden so much from its believers, and covered up some serious past and present teachings and practices.. and yet, we are the ones treated with disdain, contempt or suspicion due to fading from activity!.

simply amazing that we have had to make a conscious decision to stand up for what is right and not be a part of the organisation for genuine and sincere reasons.

and yet they slander us, malign us and make us look like the ones with the problem!.

stuckinarut2
kairos
kaik
2 hours ago
umadevi
7
Update on my current life
by umadevi in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 a day ago
i'm visiting this site after few years here and it's feels like coming home!

just a recap on my past visits here ... i was a confused single jw mom with a 9 year old son in 2011. some friends here sent me soft copies of coc and few other ebooks which gave me the courage and strength to exit from wt society.

best ever decision i made!

TheListener
DesirousOfChange
Doubtfully Yours
13 hours ago
lenaga
4
Who was vice president of WT between 1997 and 2000?
by lenaga in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 a day ago
1977-1992 milton henschel, 1992-1997 lloyd barry, in 2000 malefant and wallen.

JRK
lenaga
TheOldHippie
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JW_Rogue
41
WT Resurrection Hope Absolutely Ridiculous As Illustrated In Their Publications
by JW_Rogue in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Personal Experiences & Reunions
 a day ago
saw this while browsing through the good news brochure:.

is it any wonder people aren't listening to jws anymore?

what an absolutely delusional scene!

brandnew
stuckinarut2
2+2=5
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DT
4
A Novel Featuring the Millerites, Charles Taze Russell, and Their End Time Prophecies
by DT in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 a day ago
i wanted to let you know that i'm giving away the ebook version of the great apocalypse on amazon until april 8th.

http://www.amazon.com/great-apocalypse-sparlock-multiverse-book-ebook/dp/b011m755cc.

this philosophical thriller deals with several themes that will be familiar to former jehovah's witnesses.

DT
neat blue dog
DT
10 hours ago
JeffT
15
A blog post on my 65th birthday
by JeffT in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 a day ago
putting this out there for everybody.

.

http://pathologicallyintellectual.blogspot.com/.

jookbeard
SecretSlaveClass
DesirousOfChange
13 hours ago
pbrow
2
looking for video
by pbrow in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 2 days ago
hey all,.

looking for a video i saw a while back.

it was a computer generated video w/ a computerized voice.

baker
tim3l0rd
a day ago
JACOB Meza
14
A Sincere Question Regarding Macroevolution
by JACOB Meza in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 2 days ago
i have a sincere question related to macroevolution:.

microevolution happens on a small scale (within a single population), while macroevolution happens on a scale that transcends the boundaries of a single species.

despite their differences, evolution at both of these levels relies on the same, established mechanisms of evolutionary change:.

Vanderhoven7
Coded Logic
kaik
5 hours ago
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stuckinarut2
11
The danger of thinking we know everything.
by stuckinarut2 in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 6 hours ago
a thought occurred that there is a danger in thinking we know everything, or have it all figured out in life.

especially when it comes to matters of doctrine or faith.. witnesses (or at least the society as a whole) are so self-confident, so proud to be the only ones who know "the truth" about everything to do with the universe, the earth, our past and our future, that pride kicks in.

and pride is dangerous...(.and before a fall).

TheOldHippie
vivalavida
Xanthippe
28 minutes ago
Gorbatchov
2
Panama papers
by Gorbatchov in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 11 hours ago
is there a chance that watchtower is involved in offshore funds?.

i think there is, because of the business organisation model.. what do you think?.

how to find out?.

Londo111
Gorbatchov
11 hours ago
bradford
10
JW Tattoos
by bradford in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 12 hours ago
i'm sure there are countless opinions on whether you should get a tattoo or not.

my personal view is that if you were to get one it should mean something.. anyone get a tattoo to remember their jw roots?

i was thinking of getting a tetragrammaton somewhere.

bradford
disfellowshipped1
Finkelstein
an hour ago
Naoscillator
5
Feeling Jealous of True Believers
by Naoscillator in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Personal Experiences & Reunions
 16 hours ago
what a simple life it is to be a true believer.

the cocksureness of people who never for a moment question their core beliefs is something i have come to envy.

it's altogether foreign, but it sure looks nice over on the other side.. why do some people step into the void of uncertainty while others do everything in their power never to even go near it?

Naoscillator
Doubtfully Yours
DesirousOfChange
14 hours ago
stuckinarut2
12
Feeling Betrayed?
by stuckinarut2 in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Personal Experiences & Reunions
 19 hours ago
this is the way many of us feel no doubt: feeling like we have been betrayed by a faith that has hidden so much from its believers, and covered up some serious past and present teachings and practices.. and yet, we are the ones treated with disdain, contempt or suspicion due to fading from activity!.

simply amazing that we have had to make a conscious decision to stand up for what is right and not be a part of the organisation for genuine and sincere reasons.

and yet they slander us, malign us and make us look like the ones with the problem!.

stuckinarut2
kairos
kaik
2 hours ago
umadevi
7
Update on my current life
by umadevi in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 a day ago
i'm visiting this site after few years here and it's feels like coming home!

just a recap on my past visits here ... i was a confused single jw mom with a 9 year old son in 2011. some friends here sent me soft copies of coc and few other ebooks which gave me the courage and strength to exit from wt society.

best ever decision i made!

TheListener
DesirousOfChange
Doubtfully Yours
13 hours ago
lenaga
4
Who was vice president of WT between 1997 and 2000?
by lenaga in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 a day ago
1977-1992 milton henschel, 1992-1997 lloyd barry, in 2000 malefant and wallen.

JRK
lenaga
TheOldHippie
a day ago
JW_Rogue
41
WT Resurrection Hope Absolutely Ridiculous As Illustrated In Their Publications
by JW_Rogue in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Personal Experiences & Reunions
 a day ago
saw this while browsing through the good news brochure:.

is it any wonder people aren't listening to jws anymore?

what an absolutely delusional scene!

brandnew
stuckinarut2
2+2=5
25 minutes ago
DT
4
A Novel Featuring the Millerites, Charles Taze Russell, and Their End Time Prophecies
by DT in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 a day ago
i wanted to let you know that i'm giving away the ebook version of the great apocalypse on amazon until april 8th.

http://www.amazon.com/great-apocalypse-sparlock-multiverse-book-ebook/dp/b011m755cc.

this philosophical thriller deals with several themes that will be familiar to former jehovah's witnesses.

DT
neat blue dog
DT
10 hours ago
JeffT
15
A blog post on my 65th birthday
by JeffT in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 a day ago
putting this out there for everybody.

.

http://pathologicallyintellectual.blogspot.com/.

jookbeard
SecretSlaveClass
DesirousOfChange
13 hours ago
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Subjects to Explore
Friends
Discuss anything Jehovahs Witness or WatchTower society related and meet new friends
 4,055,052 posts in  124,661 topics

Personal Experiences & Reunions
Lost touch with old friends from your old congregation? Find them here!
 255,019 posts in  11,829 topics

Best of Topics
Top 'best of' topics, articles and posts. First stop for new visitors.
 628 posts in  70 topics




Community Guidelines

Posting Rules

Terms of Service

Privacy Policy

DMCA

Copyright © 2001-2015 Jehovah's Witness Discussion Forum | JW.Org Community Information.
 


http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/subject/jw?nav=first