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Excellent Conversation At Literature Trolley
by cofty 4 days ago 86 Replies latest 12 hours ago   jw experiences
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cofty
cofty 4 days ago

Yesterday my wife and I enjoyed one of our regular days out at Edinburgh - movie, lunch, walk, meal etc.
In the late afternoon while Mrs Cofty went shopping I had an hour at the excellent Museum of Scotland and arranged to meet up outside the National Gallery on Princes Street. On my way back I saw the JW trolley was at the usual spot on the Royal Mile. There was an older man and a young woman standing well back trying hard to look inconspicuous. Since I had 20 minutes to make the 5 minute walk down the Playfair Steps I couldn't resist stopping for a chat. I stood looking over the literature on offer while the JWs did their best to pretend it all had nothing to do with them.
As I had hoped there was plenty creationist propaganda on display so after a minute or so I smiled and said hello and the conversation went roughly as follows... (The woman did not get involved despite my efforts to include her. It transpired the man was called John)
Me - So are you creationists?
John - No.
Me - Really? You have a lot of creationist literature.
John - We don't believe the world was made in 7 days.
Me - Ok but you are still creationists aren't you? I mean you don't accept evolution do you?
John - No we don't believe in evolution.
Me - How do you manage that with so much great information available about the evidence? Have you ever read a book that presents the evidence for evolution?
John - (Long pause) Yes
Me - Well done, I respect that. Which books have you read?
John - Well you know the ones that Darwin wrote.
Me - Hmmm ok. Those are 150 years old. Which of Darwin's books did you read?
John - Well it's quoted in one of these brochures here.
Me - Oh, so you mean you have read a quote in a creationist book. What I meant was have you read any science books that explain the evidence for evolution?
John - No I haven't read any of those.
Me - If I was to tell you that I had read lots of stuff written by ex-JWs, I had never read any of your books, but I had decided that your religion was all wrong would that be fair?
John - No
Me - In fact if I did that it would be intellectually dishonest wouldn't it?
John - (awkward silence)
Me - You are out here dismissing evolution but you admit you haven't ever read a single word of the evidence. Is that honest?
John - But who says evolution is true?
Me - Tens of thousands of scientist from fields like biology, paleontology, geology, genetics, biogeography, comparative anatomy, etc
John - Yes MEN say it's true!
Me - (being deliberately obtuse) Actually a lot of top scientists are women.
John - But I trust the bible and it says (quotes Rom1:20 with emphasis on INEXCUSABLE!)
Me - But what does the natural world really tell us about "god's invisible qualities"? Every animal you have ever seen died in agony of predation, parasites, disease, starvation or exposure. Viruses kill millions every year? There are parasites that eat a child's eyes from the inside. What do these things say about god's qualities?
John - But what about the grass and photosynthesis?
Me - Grass doesn't feel pain. I don't care about grass. You said that creation tells us about god. Why did he make a world where everything dies in agony? Why did he make viruses?
John - MEN made viruses!
Me - That is simply not true. You seem to have a view of the natural world that is straight out of Disney rather than reality.
John - Well I think that is enough of this conversation now thanks.
Me - No I'm just getting started, I'm really enjoying talking to you. I think it's a pity you haven't read the evidence for evolution I think you would be fascinated by it. Let me ask you if you were serving on a jury and an expert told you that they had examined a sample taken from the crime scene and studied the DNA and could say with certainty that it belonged to the accused would you believe it?
John - Yes I think so
Me - But the evidence that shows different species evolved from a common ancestor is exactly the same sort of evidence.
I spent about 5 minutes sharing a few highlights of the genetic evidence for evolution.
John constantly tried to change the subject to talk about the origins of life and frequently tried to link evolution with the social implications of "survival of the fittest". I was able to explain the difference between the biology that explains how we got here and the subject of morality and how we ought to organise society.
I was able to clear up some of his misconceptions and give him a taste of the subject. He had calmed down and started to be less defensive so I decided it was time to come clean and told him I was a former pioneer and elder. He wanted to know why I had left so I reminded him of the '95 debacle. He had been attracted into the organisation by the '75 excitement so he had some sympathy. He tried to claim that GB had never said anything definite about '75 but I was able to give him a few quotes from memory.
I told him the organisation was not the one I had grown up with. The emphasis on money was unthinkable when I was young and now they even have cartoons designed to manipulate children to hand over their pocket money! He tried to excuse it on the basis that the organisation is growing rapidly until I reminded him about how many branches had been closed and congregations merged.
We discussed the shambles that is the Chelmsford project. I asked him how it could possibly be wise to buy a chemical dump and suggested that if he could find out who signed off on it I would like to sell them the George IV Bridge. His attitude by now was very humble and sympathetic. It was clear he was distressed by some of these issues.
He asked if I ever had a personal relationship with "Jehovah" so I was able to explain about how sincere I had been and that my problem was over doctrines. In about 3 minutes I was able to explain the reason why blood transfusions are not against bible principles using the arguments in this post... He looked genuinely astonished by this information.
At this point I said I had to go but that I had really enjoyed talking to him. We shook hands and I said that I hoped he wasn't offended by anything I had said. I reminded him that he was promoting ideas in a public space and it's only reasonable for a member of the public to challenge those ideas.
I actually think he wanted to talk more. If I could sum up his demeanour as I left it would be crestfallen. He will be thinking about some of that stuff for a long time.
By the way the film (movie) we went to see was "The Man Who Knew Infinity". It's excellent.
 +79 / -2
disposable hero of hypocrisy
disposable hero of hypocrisy 4 days ago
That was a right riveting read, thanks for sharing cofty, and good work! Don't forget to count your time.
 +24 / -0
Diogenesister
Diogenesister 4 days ago
Fantastic. Thanks for the post link to the blood issue ' I've bookmarked it. I feel for the guy..he's obviously struggling but doesn't want to actively search feeling it to be a betrayal of his god....hence his wish to continue the talk with you, as you brought the information to him.👍👍good one anyway!
 +5 / -0
blondie
blondie 4 days ago

So God didn't make viruses?
*** g03 10/22 p. 4 Those Resilient Germs—How They Rebound ***
VIRUSES, bacteria, protozoans, fungi, and other microorganisms have evidently been around since life on earth began. The stunning flexibility of these germs, the simplest of all creatures, has allowed them to survive where nothing else can.


 +15 / -0
gone for good
gone for good 3 days ago

Thank you Cofty.
Thank you Blondie.
 +3 / -0
HappyDad
HappyDad 3 days ago

Well done Cofty!
Sure wish I had conversational ability like you.
HappyDad
 +3 / -1
Billy the Ex-Bethelite
Billy the Ex-Bethelite 3 days ago

That "experience" should be in the yearbook!

John - But who says evolution is true?
If Noah fit all the animals alive on earth in a floating box about 4000 years ago, the Bible teaches a far more radical "dogma" of massive evolutionary scale and brief timetable than anything proposed in the field of science.

 +16 / -1
Divergent
Divergent 3 days ago
Just curious... what was the younger sister doing all this while?
 +3 / -0
steve2
steve2 3 days ago

Just curious... what was the younger sister doing all this while?
Knitting...her brows.
But seriously, I like your approach Cofty. You're right: They display their creationist literature in a public space so it is no "intrusion" for them to be questioned about their "views".
When I was an active Witness, I weathered conversations with Bible-believers far better than I did those with "Evolutionists". For a confident sounding young man, I was totally out of my depth, spouting simplistic slogans and never quite getting the counterpoints to what I said.
 +2 / -1
LV101
LV101 3 days ago

You are amazing and his life will never be the same. Definitely his lucky day at the trolley.
 +4 / -1

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Excellent Conversation At Literature Trolley
by cofty 4 days ago 86 Replies latest 12 hours ago   jw experiences
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konceptual99
konceptual99 3 days ago
Nice one Cofty!
 +1 / -0
jookbeard
jookbeard 3 days ago
good work, I never ever miss a chance to speak with them.
 +2 / -0
EdenOne
EdenOne 3 days ago

Great convo Cofty!
Eden
 +1 / -0
purrpurr
purrpurr 3 days ago
I salute you cofty! Excellent anti witnessing!
 +1 / -1
Truthexplorer
Truthexplorer 3 days ago
Hi Cofty, sound like you had a respectable conversation with this guy. If its the John I know who is in my cong and who often does the metro work, he is a genuine nice man. It was good that he had an ' agree to disagree attitude'. For eg, I beleive in creation, BUT like John am willing to listen peoples view respectfully. I would love to have your boldness Cofty.

 
bohm
bohm 3 days ago

Quite an amazing conversation, I am very impressed how you were able to turn it into a personal conversation on your own views of the organization. It is a damn good idea to hammer on the cartoons. If they don't sit 100% well with him, he is going to have you in the back of his .every.damn.time. they play one of those at an assembly or meeting.
I have almost been hoping to talk with some witness, however they seem to never be around where I live for the past few years.
A thing I might have done differently than you would be that the comment the books were written by men would be too good to let pass. I think an important followup is "So you say we cannot trust something that is written by men?" with the intention of immediately moving on to ask who wrote the literature he is offering and then go on to question him when one can trust something and when one cannot trust it.. the fundamental hypocrisy of rejecting evolution without having studied it is I think the biggest weakness of most JWs.
Are you familiar with Anthony Magnaboscos youtube chanel?
 +2 / -0
freddo
freddo 3 days ago

The fact you were able to shift from evolution to your being an ex-elder without him running away was excellent.
The fact that you got through to his true feelings and were able to talk knowledgeably about Blood; about Chelmsford/Money/Sophia and Caleb etc. is testimony to your social skills. If he remembers and came in for '75 he must be at least in his fifties or sixties.
Bravo!
Both he and the younger sister will never forget that conversation.
 +2 / -0
KateWild
KateWild 3 days ago

I get you're point Cofty, but are you really trying to help him as an individual the way you helped me and many others on this site.
You are very good at debate, but is winning the argument the best way to wake people up?
The fact you showed me how much you cared about me got me out the WT, not the fact that a God does not exist, because I still believe in God.
Show them how much you care, not how much you know.
Kate xx
 +12 / -1
notsurewheretogo
notsurewheretogo 3 days ago

I am quite surprised at Cofty's experience...hitting dubs with facts about evolution rarely works...heck any facts doesn't matter...as they are trained to accept what the GB says "as fact".
 +2 / -0
punkofnice
punkofnice 3 days ago

Well, that's what I like to hear. Wish I'd been a fly on the ....er......was there a wall there?
I'm glad that the bloke, John, didn't clam up and shun you.
A grand experience. Thanks for sharing.
 +4 / -0

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Topic Summary
yesterday my wife and i enjoyed one of our regular days out at edinburgh - movie, lunch, walk, meal etc.. in the late afternoon while mrs cofty went shopping i had an hour at the excellent museum of scotland and arranged to meet up outside the national gallery on princes street.
on my way back i saw the jw trolley was at the usual spot on the royal mile.
there was an older man and a young woman standing well back trying hard to look inconspicuous.



Related Topics
Mephis
Australian Royal Commission Findings released
by Mephis 4 months ago
cofty
Evolution is a Fact #30 - Your Third Eyelid
by cofty a month ago
cofty
Evolution is a Fact #28 - Something Darwin Didn't Say
by cofty a month ago
zeb
Rc thoroughness
by zeb 2 months ago
cofty
Evolution is a Fact #24 - The Origin of Your Inner Ear
by cofty 2 months ago



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Excellent Conversation At Literature Trolley
by cofty 4 days ago 86 Replies latest 12 hours ago   jw experiences
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sowhatnow
sowhatnow 3 days ago

excellent discussion,

but feel bad for bursting their bubble. they must go home so deflated and anxious.
your the the un -witness lol ' saving people from the WT mind prison , one at at a time! '
you need a cape and a side kick, lol

 
dozy
dozy 3 days ago
Thanks for sharing. Sounds like an interesting , albeit frustrating conversation.
 
Doubtfully Yours
Doubtfully Yours 3 days ago

Good morning,
It reads like a nice civil exchange of words and ideas. Decent.
Well done.
DY
 +1 / -0
jambon1
jambon1 3 days ago

A really good discussion cofty
I was in the west end of Edinburgh on Saturday and saw the carts at the corner of Princes Street.
I would like to engage witnesses but many would still recognise me from ten years ago and it would cloud their view of the discussion.
I have to say that they look about the most depressed people alive.
Imagine standing on the streets of one of the greatest cities in the world, looking like you need about fifty packets of citilopram shoved down your throat.
Go out and enjoy yourselves.
Smile ffs.
 
jambon1
jambon1 3 days ago

Can anyone update me on the reasons why the Chelmsford project is a 'debacle'?
What's happened?
 
bohm
bohm 3 days ago

jambon1:
It's what didn't happen!.
Last fall when we got the reports about the world-wide money problems one of the big news was the Chelmsford was temporarily halted. I think the current word is that construction is happening albeit slowly and the project has been scaled back dramatically. IIRC there was a big JWTV thing on Chelmsford before the money news broke which (i think!) included models of the finished project. I hope someone will be able to revisit and compare those with the finished project eventually.
 
Watchtower-Free
Watchtower-Free 3 days ago
BTTT
 
TheOldHippie
TheOldHippie 3 days ago
Oh how excellent you are, Crofty - should I fall down on my knees now and worship you for how you managed to show how utterly stupid the JWs you met were?

 +2 / -12
cofty
cofty 3 days ago

Thanks for the comments and feedback.
I have been thinking about how the conversation went and what I might do different. I will post my ideas later.
Just to say for the moment that I think caring about somebody and pointing out why they are wrong are not mutually exclusive. I also think it is a fallacy that you can't argue somebody out of a belief.
Just in and on my way back out.
Later.
 +5 / -0
cofty
cofty 3 days ago
Old Hippy - what has got into you recently? Are you ok?
 +3 / -0

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Topic Summary
yesterday my wife and i enjoyed one of our regular days out at edinburgh - movie, lunch, walk, meal etc.. in the late afternoon while mrs cofty went shopping i had an hour at the excellent museum of scotland and arranged to meet up outside the national gallery on princes street.
on my way back i saw the jw trolley was at the usual spot on the royal mile.
there was an older man and a young woman standing well back trying hard to look inconspicuous.



Related Topics
Mephis
Australian Royal Commission Findings released
by Mephis 4 months ago
cofty
Evolution is a Fact #30 - Your Third Eyelid
by cofty a month ago
cofty
Evolution is a Fact #28 - Something Darwin Didn't Say
by cofty a month ago
zeb
Rc thoroughness
by zeb 2 months ago
cofty
Evolution is a Fact #24 - The Origin of Your Inner Ear
by cofty 2 months ago



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Excellent Conversation At Literature Trolley
by cofty 4 days ago 86 Replies latest 12 hours ago   jw experiences
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My Name is of No Consequence
My Name is of No Consequence 3 days ago

@ cofty:
So what was the younger sister doing while you and the older brother were talking? What was her reaction? Awesome experience by the way!
 +1 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot 3 days ago
Cofty, you're a bad, bad man. :smirk:
 
Phizzy
Phizzy 3 days ago

Well done Cofty ! and please post any thoughts on how anybody could possibly improve on what you did !
You are helping us all to hone our "Presentations" in this the Apostacratic Ministry School.
 +3 / -0
Heaven
Heaven 3 days ago

Cofty, your ability to do this leaves me in awe... well done. I think being kind is important.
The only suggestion I'd have is to give the guy your recommendation on a book he can read on Evolution. He may not know where to start.
You certainly gave him something to think about.

 +1 / -0
cofty
cofty 3 days ago

A few more details of our chat.
The girl stayed a few yards off to the side and showed by her body language that she didn't want to be part of the conversation. I asked her a few questions but only got yes or no answers. After about 10 minutes another JW lady turned up and they moved off a bit further and chatted to each other.
When I first asked him about what the carnage in the natural world tells us about god's "invisible qualities" he replied "his power!".
Me - "So god created a world where every living thing would die in agony from predation, parasites, disease, exposure or starvation so that he could demonstrate his power did he?"
That was when he tried to change the subject with "what about photosynthesis?"
I'm happy with my initial approach and will use it again but I think that genetic evidence for evolution is hard for somebody to grasp if they have no prior knowledge. Next time I will make the point that the evidence for common ancestry is of exactly the same sort as the forensic evidence that is used to prove paternity and leave it at that unless they ask for more details.
In future I will focus on evidence that is easier to grasp quickly, especially things like human vestigial features such as goosebumps, the ability to wiggle your ears, and our third eyelid. These are things that you can actually demonstrate in real time and pose challenging questions.
Series of transitional fossils such as the evolution of tetrapods and whale evolution would also challenge their assumption that there is on fossil evidence.
I did suggest to John that he should check out "Why Evolution is True" by Jerry Coyne. Of all the basic books on evolution it is perhaps the easiest to grasp.
It's important to be realistic. Nobody is ever going to declare right there on the spot that they have been wrong all along. My objective is to present something clear and memorable and then perhaps in the future when other things happen in their life they will give themselves permission to face up to doubts.
 +2 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot 3 days ago
Probably saved the young girl some future grief, at least. :smirk:
 +1 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 3 days ago

So I hope they have to count "negative hours" or "minus hours" on the report slip for that month!
 
Dagney
Dagney 3 days ago

Well done cofty.
 
KiddingMe
KiddingMe 3 days ago
Thanks for sharing.
 
LouT8503
LouT8503 2 days ago
Cofty, I read your back and forth with Pressman on the argument against blood doctrine thread you linked. Dude, you are PATIENT.
 +2 / -0

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Topic Summary
yesterday my wife and i enjoyed one of our regular days out at edinburgh - movie, lunch, walk, meal etc.. in the late afternoon while mrs cofty went shopping i had an hour at the excellent museum of scotland and arranged to meet up outside the national gallery on princes street.
on my way back i saw the jw trolley was at the usual spot on the royal mile.
there was an older man and a young woman standing well back trying hard to look inconspicuous.



Related Topics
Mephis
Australian Royal Commission Findings released
by Mephis 4 months ago
cofty
Evolution is a Fact #30 - Your Third Eyelid
by cofty a month ago
cofty
Evolution is a Fact #28 - Something Darwin Didn't Say
by cofty a month ago
zeb
Rc thoroughness
by zeb 2 months ago
cofty
Evolution is a Fact #24 - The Origin of Your Inner Ear
by cofty 2 months ago



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Excellent Conversation At Literature Trolley
by cofty 4 days ago 86 Replies latest 12 hours ago   jw experiences
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GrreatTeacher
GrreatTeacher 2 days ago

"Actually, many top scientists are women." That is just too perfect. LMFAO
Well done.
 +2 / -0
Quarterback
Quarterback 2 days ago

Well, to be fair, the person really wasn't prepared for an Evolution debate, so you had the advantage there. Most don't care to argue the subject, because they don't get trained in the in's and out's of that subject. He was correct in telling you that he is not a Creationist. The Creationists believe that a Creative day was 24 hrs long.
I don't believe in Evolution because I believe that our wonderful planet, and Solar system is so amazing that it couldn't be a matter of chance, it was created by a intelligent designer.
It's not only JW's that believe in Creation that way, but many other intelligent people do as well. If I were there, I think I would have been that sister who stood in the background and didn't participate.
 +1 / -1
Magnum
Magnum 2 days ago

Every animal you have ever seen died in agony of predation, parasites, disease, starvation or exposure.
That is one of the things that I never could reconcile with the idea of a loving creator.  I am one who is probably far more aware of animal suffering, both natural and caused by man, than most because I spend so much of my life aiding animals and have tried to educate myself on their plight. I have seen unspeakable horror, things that have mentally and emotionally scarred me for life.
Just consider the horror, terror, and brutality that will occur on the plains of Africa on just this one night. Think of the innocent baby animals that will be brutally killed. Think of the all the animals that can never be at ease; they constantly have to look over their shoulders for predators. Think of those that live in misery and itch and are in pain because of parasites. Think of those covered with fleas and ticks, those who have the mange, etc. Think of those that will be eaten alive (happens often).
Animals don't age and die gracefully in the wild. When they start to get old and/or weak and/or sick, they're in trouble.
And it's not just the herbivores that suffer. I've seen lions with their entire lower jaws knocked loose and dangling by skin. I've seen them with their sides ripped open. I've seen hyenas with parts of their faces torn off. It's savage and brutal. It disturbs me greatly.
If you're not aware of the horror, watch some YouTube videos.
 +4 / -0
Joe Grundy
Joe Grundy 2 days ago

Quarterback:
I was going to respond to your post but won't, because Cofty will surely be along soon and he can say it better than me.
Only point I'd make re evolution is = it isn't a matter of 'belief', it's a matter of 'acceptance'.
Cheers.

 +1 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot 2 days ago


Quarterback - "...our wonderful planet and Solar system is so amazing that it couldn't be a matter of chance..."
Don't kid yourself; it's not that wonderful.
Most of it's kinda scary, actually.
 +2 / -0
Magnum
Magnum 2 days ago

Quarterback: I believe that our wonderful planet, and Solar system is so amazing that it couldn't be a matter of chance
I'm one who doesn't know what to believe. I'm open to the possibility that higher beings exist. However, I find your reasoning to be flawed. If the planet and solar system have to have been created, then what about the creator himself? By your line of reasoning, wouldn't he have had to have a creator, too?
And I agree with Vidiot. While I am amazed by the solar system, etc., and I see beauty in such, it's all really brutal, cold, heartless, and dangerous. In the same way, I see beauty in the physical features of the earth and in the biosphere, however, I also see cold, brutal, heartless efficiency where only the most fit survive and horrors and suffering thrive.
 +1 / -0
steve2
steve2 2 days ago

 He was correct in telling you that he is not a Creationist. The Creationists believe that a Creative day was 24 hrs long.
Ahem, sorry he was not correct. Although a branch of Creationism has hogged the limelight with its literal interpretation of the Creation days, the label "Creationist" actually refers to anyone who believes in a literal interpretation of the Creation story in Genesis - even those who coat it with pseudo-science.
JWs are Creationists.
They try to squeeze themselves out of this label by "impressing" listeners by stating that each creative day is 1,000 years long. Big deal! LIke that tiny stretch of time within a time frame of millions upon millions of years accounts for scientific findings.
Fact is, they believe in the Biblical creation story. All else is JW nit-picking.
 +5 / -0
Quarterback
Quarterback 2 days ago

Joe: We are free to accept whatever we want to accept. I know many scientists that don't accept the Evolution theories.
Vidiot: I have great respect for the our earth, and Solar system. Mankind is very limited, oesn't possess the knowledge on how to survive in some environments. I hope that one day we will learn how to do this,
Magnum: My line of reasoning?? I stated that the earth and solar system is evidence of a intelligent designer. Some christians would say that the Creator has always existed, It's hard to wrap our heads and accept that idea. It's something that you need to accept on faith. The Gen account says, "In the beginning, were the heavens and the earth, Then God said....."
Steve: I guess Wikipedea has some interesting explaination in defining Creationism. Iread in there that Fundamental Creationists are those that take the Creation account as literal.
 +0 / -2
shepherdless
shepherdless 2 days ago

Quarterback - He was correct in telling you that he is not a Creationist. The Creationists believe that a Creative day was 24 hrs long.
No, JW's are creationists. Maybe they aren't "young earth creationists", but they are still creationists by any sensible meaning of the word.

Quarterback - I don't believe in Evolution because I believe that our wonderful planet, and Solar system is so amazing that it couldn't be a matter of chance, it was created by a intelligent designer.
What has the formation of the universe got to do with Evolution? You do realise that most mainstream Christians accept Evolution, even if God/Jehovah created the universe?



Quarterback - It's not only JW's that believe in Creation that way, but many other intelligent people do as well.
The only people who believe in creationism (as opposed to Evolution) are members of fundamentalist christian churches, or Muslim. In fact many practicing Muslims believe evolution occurs.
Further, I suspect the only reason anyone believes in creationism in this day and age, is that they had a childhood indoctrination to that effect. You can't get to a Genesis version of history by logic, deduction or reason.
 +2 / -0
Quarterback
Quarterback 2 days ago

Shepherdless: JW's do not take the Genesis account literally. When it says the Earth was created in 6 days, a day is not understood to be 24 hrs long. A creative day could be millions of years, This view differs from some Evangelical group.
You do realize that some scientists accept the Creation account when it comes to explain how it all started such as in the Big Bang theory.
I don't think you can get to a version of evolution by logic, deduction or reason. Evolution is theories. It's true that a Childhood indoctrination has contributed to belief in the Creation account. So are family values, morals, and respect for others views
 +1 / -3

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yesterday my wife and i enjoyed one of our regular days out at edinburgh - movie, lunch, walk, meal etc.. in the late afternoon while mrs cofty went shopping i had an hour at the excellent museum of scotland and arranged to meet up outside the national gallery on princes street.
on my way back i saw the jw trolley was at the usual spot on the royal mile.
there was an older man and a young woman standing well back trying hard to look inconspicuous.



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Rc thoroughness
by zeb 2 months ago
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Evolution is a Fact #24 - The Origin of Your Inner Ear
by cofty 2 months ago



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Excellent Conversation At Literature Trolley
by cofty 4 days ago 86 Replies latest 12 hours ago   jw experiences
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jambon1
jambon1 2 days ago

Yea. Nature is so wonderful and reflects the personality of the loving creator god.
Righto then.
😦
 +1 / -0
konceptual99
konceptual99 2 days ago

QB, I am happy to respect someone's belief in intelligent design but not ignorant statements about theories coupled with unilateral definitions of creationism.
I would love to see some intelligent and reasoned debate on creation v evolution but we never seem to get beyond the same tired old nonsense being repeated yet again on this thread.
The fact that I, along with 99% of every other person who believes in some form of the biblical account of creation are so unprepared to counter even the most basic of arguments for evolution was a massive red flag once I started to actually read up on the subject.
 +1 / -1
shepherdless
shepherdless 2 days ago

Quarterback - JW's do not take the Genesis account literally. When it says the Earth was created in 6 days, a day is not understood to be 24 hrs long.
Yes, that is what I meant when I said they aren't "young earth" creationists.
Quarterback - You do realize that some scientists accept the Creation account when it comes to explain how it all started such as in the Big Bang theory.
I have never read anywhere a scientist in any scientific literature stating something like, "therefore the creation account must be correct..." in relation to the origin of the universe. By the way, can you specify this "Creation account" in Genesis (or elsewhere) that explains the Big Bang theory?
Quarterback - I don't think you can get to a version of evolution by logic, deduction or reason.
Well I can't agree on that. To me it is just the obvious explanation for so much I see in the animal kingdom and the plant kingdom. It explains why certain insects become resistant to pesticides, why certain diseases become resistant to antibiotics etc.
Anyway, each to their own. I expect Cofty will be along soon with a few questions for you.
 
Joe Grundy
Joe Grundy 2 days ago

" Evolution is theories."
Here we go again. One more time for those at the back, please.

 +1 / -0
Phizzy
Phizzy 2 days ago

" Quarterback - I don't think you can get to a version of evolution by logic, deduction or reason."
Darwin did. Coupled with hugely intelligent Observation of course.
 
EdenOne
EdenOne 2 days ago

Evolution is theories.
You are confusing "theory" with guesswork, speculation, conjecture, or hypothesis. Not so.
From Wiki:
"In modern science, the term "theory" refers to scientific theories, a well-confirmed type of explanation of nature, made in a way consistent with scientific method, and fulfilling the criteria required by modern science. Such theories are described in such a way that any scientist in the field is in a position to understand and either provide empirical support ("verify") or empirically contradict ("falsify") it. Scientific theories are the most reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive form of scientific knowledge, in contrast to more common uses of the word "theory" that imply that something is unproven or speculative (which is better characterized by the word 'hypothesis').Scientific theories are distinguished from hypotheses, which are individual empirically testable conjectures, and scientific laws, which are descriptive accounts of how nature will behave under certain conditions."



Eden


 
cofty
cofty 2 days ago

Quarterback - JWs are creationists. There are many flavours of creationists including the Watchtower's preference, the "old-earth" variety. They are no more credible than Ken Ham.
You do realize that some scientists accept the Creation account
By "some scientists" do you mean some engineers, dentists and school lab technicians?
Evolution is theories.
Did you really say that? Please google "scientific theory definition".
I don't think you can get to a version of evolution by logic, deduction or reason.
You get to it via facts...
family values, morals, and respect for others views
Evolution has nothing to do with any of these things. It's just a fact about reality. All living things evolved from a common ancestor over millions of years. The earth is not flat. Both of these things are facts. Neither of them have anything to do with family values.
My "views" do not deserve respect, neither do yours. We are not discussing the best flavour of ice cream. When it comes to reality only facts matter.
Here are a few basic questions you might want to take a look at...
 
notsurewheretogo
notsurewheretogo 2 days ago

"t's important to be realistic. Nobody is ever going to declare right there on the spot that they have been wrong all along. My objective is to present something clear and memorable and then perhaps in the future when other things happen in their life they will give themselves permission to face up to doubts."
I applaud this objective...you have planted a seed...as I said in my previous comment you will never get them to think you are right there and then but that was not your objective.
I live not far away from Edinburgh, I'm up in the Highlands...next time I'm down your way I'll offer to buy you a coffee/pint...
 +1 / -0
cofty
cofty 2 days ago
Thanks notsure, it's a deal.
 
Phizzy
Phizzy 2 days ago

Looking back over my gradual journey to the point where I finally walked away from the JW mess, it was a good number of "seeds" planted over the years by good people like Cofty, that got me to the point where I would break free.
Just as there are no immediate conversions into the Cult, despite some fanciful WT " experiences" over the years, there are not in fact sudden and dramatic exits. People leave eventually, after a number of trigger events.
So we all need to emulate Cofty, and get "planting" !
 +2 / -0

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Topic Summary
yesterday my wife and i enjoyed one of our regular days out at edinburgh - movie, lunch, walk, meal etc.. in the late afternoon while mrs cofty went shopping i had an hour at the excellent museum of scotland and arranged to meet up outside the national gallery on princes street.
on my way back i saw the jw trolley was at the usual spot on the royal mile.
there was an older man and a young woman standing well back trying hard to look inconspicuous.



Related Topics
Mephis
Australian Royal Commission Findings released
by Mephis 4 months ago
cofty
Evolution is a Fact #30 - Your Third Eyelid
by cofty a month ago
cofty
Evolution is a Fact #28 - Something Darwin Didn't Say
by cofty a month ago
zeb
Rc thoroughness
by zeb 2 months ago
cofty
Evolution is a Fact #24 - The Origin of Your Inner Ear
by cofty 2 months ago



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Excellent Conversation At Literature Trolley
by cofty 4 days ago 86 Replies latest 12 hours ago   jw experiences
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LV101
LV101 2 days ago

We need a 'Cofty' phone app like the Reasoning from the Scriptures and "When Someone Says," to read from and deal with witnesses/reality. I know we need to be able to 'splain in our own words but eventually it would become our own kind-a like - you get the idea.
Amazing, this post has me reading about 'vestigial' features. Curiosity wins over and that's the idea.
 +2 / -0
Quarterback
Quarterback 2 days ago

Hmmm...I don't think that this argument is going anywhere.
Glad to hear that this polite young man at the Trolleys spoke kindly to you, and listened. The real story is why did the sister stay away?
They walked away and you walked away, and nobody convinced anybody.
The sister probably gave credit to the young man about his expressions, just like your Evolution friends have given you on this post
and life goes on
Cheers
 +0 / -3
cofty
cofty 2 days ago

Quarterback - Actually he wasn't a young man. You didn't read the OP.
He didn't become a JW until he was in his 40s. He was left in no doubt that there was a mountain of evidence for evolution that he had never considered. He was challenged for his intellectual dishonesty for promoting creationism without ever reading a single book that presents the facts for evolution. (did this touch a raw nerve with you?)
He now knows that Rom.1:20 cannot be reconciled with both theism and reality.
He now understands that equating evolution with moral nihilism is a fallacy.
He acknowledged to a total stranger his concerns over changes and failures of the organisation.
He heard a concise and powerful refutation of the blood dogma.
His confidence in his worldview has been significantly challenged. In future it might make a difference.
Isn't it strange that the one piece of superstition that JWs most commonly retain after leaving the cult is creationism? It is the one doctrine that is most easily disproved by objective evidence...
 +3 / -0
bohm
bohm 2 days ago

I keep reading it as a "literature troll".
 
Heaven
Heaven 2 days ago


Cofty said: I did suggest to John that he should check out "Why Evolution is True" by Jerry Coyne. Of all the basic books on evolution it is perhaps the easiest to grasp.
Oh, excellent, Cofty. I am glad you gave him somewhere to start. I like that you have a strategy to focus on more easier evolutionary concepts to grasp. Making it relatable is a great idea. Again, so well done.

 +1 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot 2 days ago


Quarterback - "JWs do not take the Genesis account literally."
Oh, really?
Go to your local BOE and tell them that you don't believe that the Garden of Eden or Adam and Eve actually existed, and see what happens.
 +1 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot 2 days ago


cofty - "Isn't it strange that the one piece of superstition that JWs most commonly retain after leaving the cult is creationism? It is the one doctrine that is most easily disproved by objective evidence."
Now there's some thump-you-over-the-head irony. :smirk:
 +1 / -0
Quarterback
Quarterback a day ago

Yes Cofty he was older than I thought or remembered. I was wrong on that one. But, he is still younger than I am,
This brother will probably just return to the Carts soon enough because he was kind to you, and let you go on about your knowledge. That is the new approach to the Public Witnessing. Don't argue.
I don't even want to argue with you. It's not that I haven't argued the subject before.
When I want to believe in Evolution I will go to Chapters and buy a good book about it. Perhaps it will be "Evolution for Dummies," or "Evolution for Seniors"
 
steve2
steve2 a day ago

Quarterback, I would never expect you to do anything other than what you want to do and it's the same with what I would expect of Cofty. Cofty did what he did because at a certain level he felt the need and wanted to do it - and good on him. Yes, whilst the probability of a JW thinking for himself is pretty low, we know from our own experiences as JWs that the thinking process can and does begin and grow. Otherwise we would not be here.
At the same time, thinking for ourselves did not happen overnight - and it seldom was driven by a single issue or identifiable key moment. But it happens.
What I can say is this (based on my own personal experience and what many other ex-JWs have shared): It is not always so easy for JWs to "shrug off" a disturbing conversation with a non-JW, whether a former one or not.
Doubts niggle and chip away at taken-for-granted beliefs - and they certainly sap the desire to remain totally committed to a belief system.
 +4 / -0
konceptual99
konceptual99 a day ago

When I want to believe in Evolution I will go to Chapters and buy a good book about it. Perhaps it will be "Evolution for Dummies," or "Evolution for Seniors"
How about when you just want to understand the other side of the argument? How about when you want to gain some insight into why all the supposedly blindingly obvious objections like irreducible complexity or the development of the eye are not sufficient to cast reasonable doubt on the overall theory of evolution? How about when you simply want to have some intellectual honesty and be prepared to gain some basic understanding of a subject you are so keen to dismiss?
 +1 / -0

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yesterday my wife and i enjoyed one of our regular days out at edinburgh - movie, lunch, walk, meal etc.. in the late afternoon while mrs cofty went shopping i had an hour at the excellent museum of scotland and arranged to meet up outside the national gallery on princes street.
on my way back i saw the jw trolley was at the usual spot on the royal mile.
there was an older man and a young woman standing well back trying hard to look inconspicuous.



Related Topics
Mephis
Australian Royal Commission Findings released
by Mephis 4 months ago
cofty
Evolution is a Fact #30 - Your Third Eyelid
by cofty a month ago
cofty
Evolution is a Fact #28 - Something Darwin Didn't Say
by cofty a month ago
zeb
Rc thoroughness
by zeb 2 months ago
cofty
Evolution is a Fact #24 - The Origin of Your Inner Ear
by cofty 2 months ago



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Excellent Conversation At Literature Trolley
by cofty 4 days ago 86 Replies latest 12 hours ago   jw experiences
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cofty
cofty a day ago

This brother will probably just return to the Carts soon enough because he was kind to you, and let you go on about your knowledge. - Quarterback
No he wasn't. He started off as arrogant, defensive and dismissive.
We parted on good terms because I persisted until we found common ground.
That is the new approach to the Public Witnessing. Don't argue.
The new approach is to keep pointing at the website logo. Whatever happened to "always ready to give a defense"?
Do you do trolley witnessing Quarterback?
 +3 / -0
jookbeard
jookbeard a day ago
funny how for all those years we'd have our "Reasoning" book ready,have pre made presentations in how to over come objections when speaking to people from other religions etc, now its just go to our website, I say to them that your website is clearly incomplete with UN membership, child abuse cover-ups, failed doctrines and no older publications seem to be available on it, the "Reasoning" book is well past it now, do they ever use it?
 
jambon1
jambon1 a day ago

Got to admit that I find it galling that these people actually get to count their time for standing by a trolley.
It it just seems crazy
I regularly see two carts with sometimes four or six standing beside it.
They call that ministry?
🤔
 +3 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot 20 hours ago


jambon1 - "...They call that a ministry?"
Despite what the Org claims, it's not actually about having a ministry.
It's about demonstrating loyalty and obedience to said Org,
x
Things like trolleys make that increasingly easy for hard-core loyalists, whilst increasingly alienating doubters and fence-sitters, thus pushing them closer to leaving.
After all, a million or so staunch True Believers are proobably all the Org will need to get by after they're done downsizing publication, construction, and property holdings, not to mention that that kind of reduced infrastructure probably wouldn't support a 7-8 million membership.
So, it stands to reason they'd want to downsize the rank-and-file, too, and things like this can facilitate that without mass disfellowshipping.
x
Then they could just spin it as a fulfillment of the "love of the greater number cooling off" prophecy, thus cementing their legitimacy in the eyes of the remaining loyalists.
 +2 / -0
bohm
bohm 19 hours ago

Cofty: The new approach is to keep pointing at the website logo. Whatever happened to "always ready to give a defense"?
Do you do trolley witnessing Quarterback?
Dare I say, you may yourself be engaging in a bit of troll witnessing right now (haw haw haw)
 +1 / -0
Village Idiot
Village Idiot 18 hours ago

Yesterday I saw two Witness ladies in front of a supermarket. No trolley, just magazines in their hands, while they were chatting with each other. They were strategically positioned in the blind spot of a water dispensing machine where only a few customers would see them.
Keep up the good work JWs.

 +1 / -0
defender of truth
defender of truth 18 hours ago

Great job, Cofty. I always enjoy your stories.
You should write a book. :wink:
He had been attracted into the organisation by the '75 excitement so he had some sympathy. He tried to claim that GB had never said anything definite about '75 but I was able to give him a few quotes from memory.

For anyone wanting '75 quotes and audio clips, read the whole of this thread:
www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/447280003/bbc-interview-about-1975-never-heard-this-before

 +1 / -0
steve2
steve2 17 hours ago

JWs are merely fulfilling Bible prophecy:
"By this all will know you are my disciples if you have JW.org. promotions among you" (John 13:35);
"This good news of JW.org will be preached in all the inhibited earth and then the end will come" (Matthew 24:14).
And my all time favorite:
"The nations shall know that we are JW.org" (Ezekile 37.28).
Who'd have thought that deep into the time of the end, the true God Jehovah would be reduced to a single initial, J?
 +4 / -0
Heaven
Heaven 16 hours ago

LOL @ steve2

 +2 / -0
scotinsw
scotinsw 15 hours ago

Great experience cofty.
i see the carts on a daily basis but i have never had the courage to say anything to them
im trying to remember which congreagation would have this as their territory cant remember where the boundary between waverley and the other congs was. This is a good sign that i've put my jw past behind me!
 +2 / -0

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yesterday my wife and i enjoyed one of our regular days out at edinburgh - movie, lunch, walk, meal etc.. in the late afternoon while mrs cofty went shopping i had an hour at the excellent museum of scotland and arranged to meet up outside the national gallery on princes street.
on my way back i saw the jw trolley was at the usual spot on the royal mile.
there was an older man and a young woman standing well back trying hard to look inconspicuous.



Related Topics
Mephis
Australian Royal Commission Findings released
by Mephis 4 months ago
cofty
Evolution is a Fact #30 - Your Third Eyelid
by cofty a month ago
cofty
Evolution is a Fact #28 - Something Darwin Didn't Say
by cofty a month ago
zeb
Rc thoroughness
by zeb 2 months ago
cofty
Evolution is a Fact #24 - The Origin of Your Inner Ear
by cofty 2 months ago



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Excellent Conversation At Literature Trolley
by cofty 4 days ago 86 Replies latest 12 hours ago   jw experiences
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Quarterback
Quarterback 13 hours ago

Hello guys. What a beautiful sunny day it is today..It really makes you want to thank the Creator, doesn't it?
See you later. I've got to meet a Evolutionist at the Trolley cart today.
 +0 / -1
cofty
cofty 13 hours ago

I've got to meet a Evolutionist at the Trolley cart today
What on earth would you say to them?
The earth is pretty - therefore Jehovah - the end.
By the way what is an "Evolutionist"?
Is somebody who accepts the fact of gravity a "Gravitationalist"?
 +1 / -0
Quarterback
Quarterback 13 hours ago

Oh...Did I just invent another new word? My wife tells me I do that all the time.
What would I say to them? Not too sure yet. If he shows up I'll let you know.
"Gravitationalist"....That's funny, LOL
 
Quarterback
Quarterback 13 hours ago
Wait a minute now. I believe that I may have Created a new word
 
cofty
cofty 13 hours ago

What would I say to them? Not too sure yet.
Try these for a few ideas...
 +1 / -0
Quarterback
Quarterback 13 hours ago
I'll mark and read later. Thanks
 +1 / -0
defender of truth
defender of truth 12 hours ago

I absolutely love this reasoning by Cofty here. From the OP:

Me - If I was to tell you that I had read lots of stuff written by ex-JWs, I had never read any of your books, but I had decided that your religion was all wrong would that be fair?
John - No

Me - In fact if I did that it would be intellectually dishonest wouldn't it?

John - (awkward silence)

Me - You are out here dismissing evolution but you admit you haven't ever read a single word of the evidence. Is that honest?

 

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Topic Summary
yesterday my wife and i enjoyed one of our regular days out at edinburgh - movie, lunch, walk, meal etc.. in the late afternoon while mrs cofty went shopping i had an hour at the excellent museum of scotland and arranged to meet up outside the national gallery on princes street.
on my way back i saw the jw trolley was at the usual spot on the royal mile.
there was an older man and a young woman standing well back trying hard to look inconspicuous.



Related Topics
Mephis
Australian Royal Commission Findings released
by Mephis 4 months ago
cofty
Evolution is a Fact #30 - Your Third Eyelid
by cofty a month ago
cofty
Evolution is a Fact #28 - Something Darwin Didn't Say
by cofty a month ago
zeb
Rc thoroughness
by zeb 2 months ago
cofty
Evolution is a Fact #24 - The Origin of Your Inner Ear
by cofty 2 months ago



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Feeling anxious, venting...
by stephanie61092 3 days ago 6 Replies latest 2 days ago   jw friends
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stephanie61092
stephanie61092 3 days ago

Good morning all,
This is just a rambling post. At the meeting yesterday during the WT study, I started flipping through the magazine to try to pass the time. I only study one lesson a week (I can only handle so much rubbish at one sitting) so I was surprised when a certain word caught my eye... "Loyalty"
I think, "isn't 'loyalty' the theme of the convention this year? Oh boy, they're doing a little pre-brainwashing to get everyone prepped for the giant 3 day brainwashing session in a few months - this outta be good!"
So I start reading (btw it's "Learn From Jehovahs Loyal Servants" in the 02/16 WT study edition) and my heart dropped when I get to paragraph 7...
7 A conflict of loyalties may arise when a close relative is disfellowshipped. For example, a sister named Anne[1] received a telephone call from her disfellowshipped mother. The mother wanted to visit Anne because she felt pained by her isolation from the family. Anne was deeply distressed by the plea and promised to reply by letter. Before writing, she reviewed Bible principles. (1 Cor. 5:11; 2 John 9-11) Anne wrote and kindly reminded her mother that she had cut herself off from the family by her wrongdoing and unrepentant attitude. “The only way you can relieve your pain is by returning to Jehovah,” Anne wrote
The rest of the meeting was spent trying to keep my anxiety under control. I knew about the "shunning" talk at the convention coming up but I've been able to keep it out of my mind and even hope that maybe I'll be reinstated by then. I'm just so, so upset and worried that this "loving reminder" will readjust my parents thinking.
Currently, since I'm "coming back", they talk to me freely and hang out with me whenever I tell them I'll be in their area. I hope that this WT doesn't make them recant. My mom told me as soon as I told her that I was getting DFed that she would always pick up the phone for me, because I'm her daughter. But having that social contact these past few months has been making all the difference in keeping on vs feeling suicidal.
I keep telling myself that if they didn't want the social contact, they wouldn't have it...they've been JWs long enough to know what's "expected" of them, they've seen quotes like these before, what is one more WT article going to do? But you never know..
Sorry for the long, rambling post. Sometimes it just feels really good to get my thoughts written out, especially to an audience that understands. Have a good day everyone!
 +9 / -0
KiddingMe
KiddingMe 3 days ago

Hi Stephanie,
I find that sometimes the topic of the article can affect a family's loyality in waves. They have sort of highs and lows --times when they adhere more to the strict rules and times when they don't. They may feel more strongly (or guilty) about it during the time of the article, then it dies down some for awhile or until the next article or talk. Sometimes it may help to steer clear or not press certain issues during those high times.
I hope your parents keep communicating with you and not let the article an upcoming convention change them.
 +3 / -0
DNCall
DNCall 3 days ago
Next time the "L word" gives you anxiety, remember that loyalty is only as virtuous as the object of that loyalty.

 
TheListener
TheListener 3 days ago

You deserve some big hugs ((((((HUGS))))). Life is hard enough without the WTS adding to our problems. I'm glad your parents are communicating and socializing with you. All witnesses know the WTS rules and regulations on disfellowshipping; most likely they have justified their relationship with you to themselves in some way. Their attitude may swing back and forth a bit but I really don't think that one article will suddenly make them realize that they need to change how they interact with you.
But, please, get some professional counseling to get you through this. You deserve to be happy and not to have your happiness so dependent on your outside relationships that you could possibly harm yourself. A professional counselor can be so helpful and important to our healing and moving on in a healthy way.
 +5 / -0
stephanie61092
stephanie61092 3 days ago

Thank you for your kind thoughts. I know that even if this article "makes waves" with my family, it will probably be very temporary. I used to do the same thing, I would be invigorated after a convention and for a few weeks be a super JW but sure enough would go back to my old (much more normal) habits.
TheListener..thank you for the hugs. I am seeing a therapist once a week and have been since January. It does help a lot and I'm learning about inner peace, contentment and genuine happiness. I'm just not at a point yet where I can say that I'm comfortable living without my parents in my life to some degree.
 +1 / -0
DesirousOfChange
DesirousOfChange 2 days ago

Keep plodding along towards your reinstatement if that's still your goal.
Find some solace in the fact that you'll be beating them at their own game where they have set all the rules. You just have to show up, smile, play the game for a while.
Good luck.
Doc

 
TheListener
TheListener 2 days ago
Good for you Stephanie! I'm glad you are being proactive and moving forward. Please always feel free to vent your frustrations and share your good times here too.
 

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