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I'm a Non-JW looking to ask a few questions re dfing
by RocketQueen a day ago 16 Replies latest 4 hours ago   jw friends
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RocketQueen
RocketQueen a day ago

Someone close to me has been brought up as a JW since a very early age. He's now looking to exit. He was baptised as a teen and is now early 20s. His family have said that if he were to leave and then be seen to do ungodly things e.g. have a girlfriend (!?!?!?) then he would be disfellowshipped and they would no longer be able to speak to him.
I guess what I want to ask is that how would he get disfellowshipped? Who would tell the elders that he had a girlfriend? Would his family do that to him, knowing he would be df'd? I'm a bit lost with it all tbh!!!
Why can't they just let him leave and continue to be his family?
 +4 / -0
konceptual99
konceptual99 21 hours ago

Hi RocketQueen.
Because it's basically a cult that uses coercive techniques to keep people within the structure.
If he were to have a girlfriend who was not a witness then eventually it would be assumed that he was sleeping with her. This constitutes "fornication" which, if practiced unrepentantly, would lead to his disfellowshipping as a person willingly committing a "gross sin". Disfellowshipped persons should not even be greeted in the street.
The organisation promotes loyalty to God and his standards (i.e. their interpretation of them) by equating loyalty to the organisation as loyalty to God. Families are put in the difficult position of having to choose association with a DFed person or risk their own status as an approved person in the organisation.
Disfellowshipping is promoted as a positive thing which can help one to want to return to the fold. Compromising on association with a DFed person is seen as undermining the disciplinary process and disloyalty to Jehovah and his organisation.
Even if your friend tries to tread a fine balance and avoid being accused of a gross sin, his behaviour would be perceived as not meeting the mark and individuals, including member of his own family, may choose to shun him or minimise their association.
Your friend can just leave and avoid contact with the Witnesses ("fade") but at some point any "sinful" actions may catch up with him and he could end up being disfellowshipped. Having said that, as a single and young person this is far more achievable than for those even more ingrained in the structure and those with families.
Hope that helps a little!
 +5 / -0
RocketQueen
RocketQueen 21 hours ago

It's all so frustrating. I've used this forum before (as MissyM). the aforementioned is actually my stepson and he will be coming to live with us if he decides to leave. He'll be moving quite a distance from his Mum and Stepfather and half siblings but his sister (full sister) lives near to us with her husband and I cannot begin to imagine how it will work if she shuns him. Would she still come to our house, would she have anything to do with us and her half sister (my daughter)? Could she REALLY do that to her own brother? Are they that entrenched and brainwashed?
It's a lot to comprehend and my mind is ready to explode.

 +5 / -0
konceptual99
konceptual99 21 hours ago

Yes they are that brainwashed.
If you live in an area that is not the same congregation as where he currently lives then it is possible for him to simply move, stop coming and fall off the radar.
If he adopts a lifestyle that is contrary to Witness standards then his sister may dob him in to the local elders but that really depends on what sort of people she and her husband are. Some people are so entrenched they will escalate the situation but others know how to play the game and know that if they want to keep the status quo then they keep their traps shut.
If he moves and his family keep quiet about whatever he chooses to do then he can successfully fade.
 +3 / -0
RocketQueen
RocketQueen 20 hours ago
Let's hope they choose the fading route.
 +2 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 19 hours ago

Why can't they just let him leave and continue to be his family?
Because the JWS is a high controlling religoius cult that imposes penalties and punishment for not obeying the directives of the top leaders, this also involves dating or marrying nonbelievers

If you become a baptized JWS, from then on you are the controlled holding property of the WTS and the organization has its enforcers to those imposing directives, namely elders whom scrutinize individuals to their personal adherence to those directives.

 +3 / -0
dozy
dozy 19 hours ago

He was brought up as a JW since a very early age. He's now looking to exit.
Ha Ha - Nope - you can't do that. JWs are like the Hotel California - you can check out any time you want , but you can't ever leave ( at least - not on your own terms without any sanctions ).

There are a lot of factors here at play in this kind of situation. Some families are very keen ( feeling it is their Christian obligation ) to "tell" on their "sinning" ex-JW relatives. Some ( even supposedly "spiritual ones high up in the Org ) keep it very hush hush indeed. Some elders will snoop around , looking for dirt. Others couldn't be bothered - too busy and/or too lazy.
Dating an unbeliever isn't in itself a DFing offence ( though possibly he may be "marked" as bad association. ) The key is whether they have committed "fornication".
Its obviously much easier to DF him if there is categorical undeniable evidence easy to obtain that he has a "worldly" girlfriend. How "brazen" is he in the relationship? Posting lots of updates on Facebook etc or well known in the community that obviously indicate an ongoing "sexual" relationship ( eg holidays abroad , living together etc ) could lead to trouble. If he is discreet - then maybe there will be no action taken.
A few others - how long has it been since his last meeting at the Kingdom Hall - last time in field service? Was he high profile - eg an appointed ministerial servant and/or a pioneer - or was he just a grunt rank & file member who did very little in "the truth". Is he known in the community as a JW? Was he popular in the congregation or did he p**s some people off who would be happy to snitch on him or lobby the elders to get him DFd? Would he be happy to meet the elders and co-operate or would he refuse to get involved ( which can muddy the waters a bit )? All of these come into the equation but there is no hard & fast rule about DFing faders / ex JWs in this kind of situation. It is just the luck of the draw.
 +5 / -0
DesirousOfChange
DesirousOfChange 18 hours ago

After moving in with you, he needs to keep a low public profile regarding anything contrary to JW teachings. No public holiday celebration. No public overdrinking or drug use. No public displays with girl friends. (Note the comment about Facebook.)
Usually, if he stays "off the radar" for a while, they will forget about him and he can go on and live his life. Hopefully he isn't wanting to escape the JW fold so he can go "experience all there is" to life. Many of the JW or Bible standards are a protection to avoiding life's problems. The ball is in his court.
Doc

 +1 / -0
RocketQueen
RocketQueen 18 hours ago
His cousin was df'd last year (apparently force himself on an underage girl but oddly the police were never involved) and i think that opened his eyes a little bit to the darker side of the religion, the shunning, lack of tolerance etc. The only thing that's been keeping him in is his Mum and siblings but he can't continue to do it for them. If he stopped going and then changed his mind, how long would it take for him to be accepted back in?
 +1 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 17 hours ago

That's all relative if he gets DFed or not.
If he does get DFed, then its usually months of constant attendance to meetings etc., a show of remorse is also important.

 

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I'm a Non-JW looking to ask a few questions re dfing
by RocketQueen a day ago 16 Replies latest 4 hours ago   jw friends
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Finkelstein
Finkelstein 17 hours ago

His cousin was df'd last year ,apparently force himself on an underage girl.
That's because the WTS/JWS religious organization is negligent to report criminal unlawful behavior to outside worldly authorities.
This has been brought to public attention recently by the organization's long standing cover up of acts of pedophilia with the organization.

 +1 / -0
OnTheWayOut
OnTheWayOut 17 hours ago

He can try to fade away quietly without revealing any violations of Watchtower rules to any JW relatives. It is possible that he may fail to fade away because of a number of things- family spying and turning him in, zealous elders seeking to get rid of him, participation in holidays or elections or whatever.
But he may be successful and keep family from shunning him. Whether he succeeds or fails, he will still be out of that cult and free. Or he may choose not to try to hide things. He's still free.
You just never know. I successfully faded and maintain JW family contact, but my JW family is minimal where most are not JW. I am already married and have no kids, so I don't really have to hide things.
Regardless, he will be free of the cult. If he loses family to shunning, he will need others like yourself involved in his life.
 +1 / -0
talesin
talesin 17 hours ago

Yes, they are that cruel. Just think of what you already know. They failed to report a statutory rape (at the very least, if not child sexual abuse and rape!). Shunning and banishment is very possible.
And this, is a criminal offense in Canada (not reporting):
(apparently force himself on an underage girl but oddly the police were never involved)
Other jurisdictions differ, but the JWS receives NO clerical protection under the law. They *must* report, like any other citizen (repeat, in Canada).
 
Giordano
Giordano 17 hours ago

I would suggest the low profile when out in public or on facebook as well as dating. He can date who ever he wants and marry who ever he wants but he has to keep various aspects of his personnel relationships private. So that even his best behavior is not suspect.
There is another consideration re his sister and that is the ARC......... not Noah's boat LOL but the Australian Royal Commission which has been investigating child sexual abuse. There's one in Britain as well.
I bring this up because the WTBTS and their followers the JW's have covered this crime up from day one.
Children being sexually abused by other JW's including Elders as well as the child's parents is rampant within the organization. But it has been made worse....... When a family or an individual makes a complaint to the Elders nothing will be done to the criminal if he or she denies it........... Unless there are two witnesses to the abuse. It's called the Two Witness rule and was a part of the Jewish laws.
So because the WTBTS likes to think of themselves as god's representatives they in effect hide behind this two witness rule and sweep the crime under the table.
So in the recent Australian Royal Commission (still ongoing) The commission found 1006 cases that came before the various Congregations dating back to 1950 when records were first mandated to the present day. And of those 1006 cases with as many as 1800 total victims (pedophiles are serial abusers) not a single case was ever reported to the police!http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/6276815245017088/australian-royal-commission-findings-released
I bring this up because if a JW is 'stumbled' and decides to stop attending meetings etc. they will not be 'marked' or DF.
If child abuse by JW's doesn't stumble a true believer then they are beyond help. So if his sister or mother questions him about his lack of participation in the JW world he can claim that the child abuse issue, which he recently discovered, has troubled him greatly. If his sister wants to get the Elders involved he has only to cite the information in the investigation to legitimize his being 'Stumbled'. He need not explain anything more. Just stick with this issue. Most elders will run for the hills.
Tell him I left the JW's (faded) with my wife in our young 20's and that was some 50 years ago and it still is the best decision we ever made.
 +1 / -0
SpiritualGal08
SpiritualGal08 15 hours ago

My ex-brother -in -law got out of getting df'd by telling the elders who came and talked to him that he no longer identified himself nor considered himself as a Witness. He had faded away but since he had been baptized he was still on their radar. What is interesting is that I heard through the grapevine that he was advised by someone (perhaps his dad who is an elder?) that when the elders came to talk to him this was what he needed to say in order to not get df'd. If he ever decided to come back to the meetings and reactivate, then he would be disciplined for his past actions...has anyone else heard of this tactic for not being df'd?
And yes, RocketQueen, self-righteous, hard-core JW's will turn in their own family and friends to the elders. Think of the Gestapo fear-based tactics and loyalty to the Fatherland and you have an inkling of how most JW's view their 'responsibility' to show their "love and loyalty" to Jehovah by turning in their fellow JW...its all based on the idea it is a way for them to show their Loyalty to Jehovah and his Organization. You know, I still remember the drama I was in as a 15 year old at the 1987 District Convention titled "Loyally Submitting to Jehovah and His Visible Organization"....it was EXACTLY this same type scenario of who are you going to be loyal to, your family or Jehovah and His Organization. I played the bad girl who was smoking and lying to her family but my "friend" convinced me to come clean to the elders or else she was going to .... wow, hadn't thought of that in many years but it goes to show the guilt techniques used to prompt the unquestioned obedience of the JW masses....
 
pale.emperor
pale.emperor 14 hours ago

RocketQueen



I was born in this religion and in the process of trying to get out while retaining my family. The best way i can describe it is like being born in North Korea: You're told one side of the story and that anyone outside is not to be trusted. You're constantly scrutinized. If you try to leave of your own choice you lose your family and friends. Because an announcement is made that "so-and-so is no longer a JW". Now, everyone in the Kingdom Hall assumes you've been disfellowshipped. And then the rumors go around about what it could be. Most assume some sort of sexual scandal.

 +2 / -0
rawe
rawe 4 hours ago

Hi RocketQueen,
I left the faith in 2007, so my information may be a bit dated. For baptised members there is no dignified resignation process. Membership can end in one of three different ways. Disassociation happens when a member writes a letter of resignation. Disfellowshipping happens when a group of Elders forms a "judicial committee" and decides that the member has committed a serious sin and is not repentant. Disassociation by action happens when a member takes some action deemed a serious sin by the faith, such as celebrating a birthday or Christmas or voting or joining another religion then declines to meet with the elders or makes stipulations about such meetings the elders find unacceptable, such as a lawyer be present or the meeting be recorded.
In all cases the announcement is simple, "So-and-so is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses." Since this statement, by design, is a simple statement that is true, it protects Jehovah's Witnesses from a charge of slander. The slander is of course there, because Witnesses are taught the subject of such announcements are the moral equivalent of the sexual deviant mentioned at 1 Corinthians 5:1.
Once the announcement has been made, obedient members will begin to shun the former member. Shunning is effectively a living death sentence, in as much as the shunned individual is treated as if they no longer exist. Fortunately not all Witnesses shun to the same degree and if the former member lives with Witnesses some contact will continue.

The only viable way of ceasing to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses and yet not wind up subject to this announcement is to fade. Unfortunately there is no set limit whereupon a former member can feel truly free from this threat. Jehovah's Witnesses can and do take action against former members even years after they have had not substantial contact with a congregation. Nonetheless as the years go by it becomes increasingly unlikely Elders will take action.
Who would tell the elders that he had a girlfriend? Would his family do that to him, knowing he would be df'd?
Any loyal and obedient Witness will inform the elders. One must keep in mind the perspective of the Witness. One leaving is making a grave mistake - they are leaving to become part of Satan's world. They are leaving the narrow road that leads to life (Matthew 7:14). The Elders are there to help such ones to repent and turn around. Only the most lawless will refuse this help and need to be disfellowshipped. Even then this is only being done to protect the congregation and help the wrongdoer see the error of their ways.

Thus it goes, that it often is family and close friends who make these reports. Those who want to fade must be determined not to do or say anything against the faith to any Witness, including close friends and family.
Why can't they just let him leave and continue to be his family?
To believing Jehovah's Witnesses their faith is the final epiphany -- it is the truth -- there is nothing beyond their faith. Thus even simply allowing a person to leave would subtle undermine that narrative. The room must have no exits signs anywhere in order to keep that narrative valid. The very concept of a life outside the faith being an equally valid existence makes no sense to a Witness. For those who have never been in the faith, one can rationalize that the problem is just one of ignorance. But for a Witness to leave the faith, after knowing the "truth" is not something one inside the faith can make rational sense of.
Do take care, and please let your friend know, while the road beyond the faith can be a bit bumpy it possible to leave the faith and live a good life, especially when one is leaving at young age.
-Randy
 

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Topic Summary
someone close to me has been brought up as a jw since a very early age.
he's now looking to exit.
he was baptised as a teen and is now early 20s.



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Thinking of writing a book about jw's, what should I put in it?
by purrpurr 21 hours ago 5 Replies latest an hour ago   jw friends
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purrpurr
purrpurr 21 hours ago

I've just finished reading Alan miller's "fade from the truth", I enjoyed it and I love that it's freely available. So I was thinking of writing a book of my own. Not an account of my life but more a simple step by step look at jw's and what they are really like? Again like Alan miller I will make it freely available in the hopes that if there are potential bible studies out there who want to know more then they will be able to read it and find out the truth about the truth.
Thoughts? Suggestions please?
 
defender of truth
defender of truth 20 hours ago

Thinking of writing a book about jw's, what should I put in it?

Words. Plenty of them, too...
:wink:
Seriously, if you don't even feel sure as to what you want to put in your book, you might not be ready to write one just yet.

So I was thinking of writing a book of my own. Not an account of my life but more a simple step by step look at jw's and what they are really like?

Nice idea, but a bit of a vague idea, really. What do you mean by what they are really like? Do you mean an exposé of the most harmful policies, or a point by point discussion of what they really believe versus what they tell people at the doors?... etc.
Many possibilities.

I think that a lot of work already exists on Jehovah's Witnesses.

1) What do you feel that your book could offer that hasn't been done before?
2) Have you got any writing experience? Maybe writing classes would be a good place to start?
Just my two cents. :smile:

 +1 / -0
Terry
Terry 16 hours ago

I'd ask myself the question, "How would my book differ in any substantive way from a visit to JWSurvey or JWFacts?"
YouTube's Watchtower Examination series is among the best (let's call them tutorials) presentations for laying bare the dangers of Jehovah's Witnesses.
I've written and published 2 books myself.
In other words, unless you are a committed writer with a burning desire to say SOMETHING not already covered, I'd take your query to be an indication there may be better ways to be an activist.
How about 1st person interviews with DF'd ex-JW's as to the fairness of the process and the impact on themselves and their families?


 +2 / -1
JW_Rogue
JW_Rogue 2 hours ago
You can either do a autobiographical type of book, a scholarly criticism of the doctrines or go out on a limb and do a fictional account. It's not about what you write but how you write.
 
atomant
atomant 2 hours ago
And its not what you say but how you say it.

 
punkofnice
punkofnice an hour ago

It's a niche market. There are plenty of xJW books around (including the Millions book I collated). As mentioned above, I would ask; 'how can I make it different?'
 

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Drifting what i've feared has started already...
by pale.emperor 20 hours ago 15 Replies latest 16 hours ago   jw experiences
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pale.emperor
pale.emperor 20 hours ago

Im in the process of drifting out. My entire family are JW's. My wife and her family are too. If you like take a look at my very first post that gives a quick rundown of what brings me here.
Basically i can sum up my crisis of faith as follows:
1. I believe it's become overly bureaucratic. - No matter how much or how little i do I'm expected to do more, and report how many hours i put in in the ministry. I see no scriptural basis for this and feel uncomfortable that it's treated as a "must do" thing. By my own reasoning, a JW will happily tell you that the first century Christians didn't celebrate Christmas, Easter or birthdays but they also didn't report how many hours they preached either.
2. I dont believe that holy spirit is involved in appointing elders. - I read an account somewhere where an elder in the USSR turned out to be a Soviet spy that was sent on a mission to infiltrate the witnesses. He started as a study, was baptized and progressed to a min servant and then and elder... all the time as a soviet spy. He eventually gave them all up. So my question is, why would the holy spirit direct them to appoint a spy as an elder.
3. Too much emphasis is placed on what you're seen to be doing rather than your spirituality. - I think a persons relationship with God is very personal, that God knows you and the reason behind everything. That Jesus is the mediator between God and man. But with the JW's we're told to confess to the elders, seek repentance through the elders etc.
4. People who are DF'd are made to feel that they are cut off from God - when in reality they're cut off from the JW's. They dont make the decision for God.
5. The understanding keeps changing. - This is a major stumbling block for me. Let imagine i went back in time to 1980. If i told expressed current JW understanding to my 1980 friends and family I'd be labelled an apostate.

There are a few more but i'd be here all day. The thing is i dont hold any hatred or animosity towards JW's. If they want to believe what they have that's up to them. But if i disassociate or get DF'd id lose my entire family. And if i tried to tell them why im leaving they'd think im an apostate. When in reality im saying "i dont know. Right now i dont know what to believe and it'd be a lie, and a sin, to go along with something that i dont believe in."
Also, i dont want my daughter to get involved in an organization where she'll be scrutinized for everything she does. Made to live up to a certain standard and get married at age 18 to a 20yo boy.
Today i got a text asking for my report. I haven't been on the ministry in 6 months so i dont even know why they're asking. Last year i asked to be taken off sound desk, mics, and giving prayers. I was supposed to come off giving talks but they said no because apparently im a "talented speaker" and "it'd encourage you spiritually".
Should i take this opportunity to tell them im stepping back and not going anymore? If i do i'd more than likely get a shepherding visit and made to admit my feelings and DF'd. I just want to be left alone.

 +12 / -0
Landy
Landy 19 hours ago
Please bear in mind that you don't owe the witnesses any explanation. Your doubts and thoughts are best kept to yourself in case you get labelled an apostate. Avoid any conversations with the elders. Just stop doing the things you donlt want to do. The best way to exit is by being 'spiritually weak' and fade away. Good luck.

 +6 / -0
OnTheWayOut
OnTheWayOut 19 hours ago

You call it drifting away. I like that. Most here have called it fading. They probaby want your time from you to prevent your status from going to "inactive" which happens at 6 months with no recruiting reports.
If you want to drift away, sooner or later you must become inactive. If you aren't ready, give them a fake 1 hour. If you are ready, either accept their shepherding visit or not. They cannot take judicial action for inactivity or for avoiding their counsel.
I wish you well.
 +6 / -0
ToesUp
ToesUp 19 hours ago

Don't say a word. Don't meet with the Elders. If you don't say anything, they can't use anything against you. We have told NOBODY in our family how we really feel. No one knows and we aren't telling. If you need to vent, vent on here or keep a journal.
If you don't want to do their little required tasks, just tell them you are busy or are not feeling well. Nothing more.
You don't owe anyone an explanation. People, in general, are nosy (especially JW's). If they are going to talk about you, they will have to make up something. Not only does this drive em crazy, it is kinda fun to watch them try so hard to extract info, only to find you're not playing into their hands.
 +6 / -0
pale.emperor
pale.emperor 19 hours ago



Don't say a word. Don't meet with the Elders. If you don't say anything, they can't use anything against you. We have told NOBODY in our family how we really feel. No one knows and we aren't telling. If you need to vent, vent on here or keep a journal.
If you don't want to do their little required tasks, just tell them you are busy or are not feeling well. Nothing more.
You don't owe anyone an explanation. People, in general, are nosy (especially JW's). If they are going to talk about you, they will have to make up something. Not only does this drive em crazy, it is kinda fun to watch them try so hard to extract info, only to find you're not playing into their hands.
But the problem is my wife's dad is an elder. And i live in the same apartment block as another elder and his wife that drive us to the meetings. This elder has already started putting pressure on me to go on the ministry.
I must admit, part of me feels quite sad. Because this has been my personality and entire model of the world since i was a baby. I've got many happy family memories as a JW. Anyone else who left felt that?

 +5 / -0
WingCommander
WingCommander 19 hours ago

Just say NO! And STOP giving talks, period.
JW's: The only Organization that requires you to ask "permission" to step down from "voluntary", non-paid positions and responsibilities. Ummmm...NO! You owe these people NOTHING! Zilch. Zero. Stop doing them, and if pressured by these clowns, ask them who they think they are to be interrogating you?
Tell them nothing, or else to F' off. They'll soon get the hint. What are they gonna do, DF you for not giving a damn? Grow a pair and be a man and put these clowns in their place.
That is all.

 +3 / -0
pale.emperor
pale.emperor 19 hours ago


Grow a pair and be a man and put these clowns in their place.
WingCommander, i appreciate what you're saying but this has nothing to do with fear of any men. It's the FACT that if i tell them im leaving i'll lose my family. And most likely labelled an apostate. Which is an unforgivable sin so no one in my family will ever speak to me again.

Imagine being a North Korean and trying to leave North Korea. It's like that.

 +3 / -0
DesirousOfChange
DesirousOfChange 18 hours ago

Because this has been my personality and entire model of the world since i was a baby. I've got many happy family memories as a JW. Anyone else who left felt that?
3rd-generation "born-in" here. Former elder. Circuit assignments. District assignments.
As I think of it, my fade took about 10 years. It was pretty innocent at the start, I really did "step down" for family reasons. Very shortly our family began being treated very differently. I was no longer Bro Prominent Elder. I begin to see that the "friendships" and relationships were based much on what I could do for those other "wanna be's".
Then came all the doubting and reasoning much as you have itemized in your OP. When it gets examined or scrutinized, it doesn't add up. It just doesn't make sense (like the Spy Elder experience, or appointments of pedophiles). The GB 2.0 changes JW Doctrine more often than they change their underwear. WHERE is the Holy Spirit directing them? Just doesn't add up.
I slacked off on meetings, though my wife continued to drag the kids. Eventually, she found it easier to stay home with me. The kids certainly did not mind skipping meetings. Our teenagers were not getting baptized but rather were going to college. (Alarm Bells everywhere.)
We just quit reporting time and we quit all meetings, although we bounced around changing Congs once or twice to confuse everyone about what Cong we really were in.
I discussed my doubts openly with my wife, asking for her HELP in resolving the problems. She soon saw the same things that are wrong.
Now we sleep in on Saturday & Sunday morning if we choose. We are not longer hassled by local elders. Even our JW family members have backed off and consider us as "stumbled".
What is saddest is the fact that it took over 50 years to realize that it was all a lie. Our best years were wasted on the JW hamster wheel. But, fortunately our kids are out of college and doing well in their careers and our grandchildren are not trapped in the Cult.
Good luck,
Doc

 +8 / -0
WingCommander
WingCommander 18 hours ago

@ pale.emporer:
I didn't say for you to tell them you are leaving. No. I said that you should tell them, "NO" when asked and/or pressured into anything you don't want to discuss or do. Big difference. If they see non-compliance as "apostate", then they really are bat-shit crazy. You are an adult. Being an adult means more than answering and cowering to your parents. Guess what? You need to stand up for yourself and start saying, "No", with no explanation required except that you are saying "No", and that THEY need to respect your decision. Any further inquiries are NONE of their damned business! JW's are the nosiest MF'ers I've ever seen. I was born into this as well, so I know exactly where you are coming from. You need to teach them to respect your boundaries. Currently, you have none, and they know it. Put boundaries up, then re-enforce them not only thru actions, but thru the word "NO."

 +2 / -0
TheListener
TheListener 18 hours ago

I hear you PE. I was in a similar situation. I reported 1 to 3 hours for many months before I just never turned in a report. At the same time I was going to barely any meetings. At some point you just disappear off the radar - that is unless you ride to the meetings with your elder father in law. I also traded talks with other brothers claiming sickness or work; not the same brother more than once or twice. Eventually, I just didn't get any more talks.
I guess what I'm saying is that if you slowly fade or drift you have to keep up some sort of pretense for awhile which may mean reporting an hour or two. But, I have a feeling that with your particular family situation you are going to have more pressure and may eventually just have to go full "I'm depressed and sick, give me time to heal" on the couple of elders that are bugging you.
 

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Drifting what i've feared has started already...
by pale.emperor 20 hours ago 15 Replies latest 16 hours ago   jw experiences
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Crazyguy
Crazyguy 17 hours ago
tell them you have mental problems , you started using the brain and now you need to be left alone to deal with.
 +1 / -0
Sanchy
Sanchy 17 hours ago

Hi Pale.Emperor,
Congratulations on opening your eyes and using your conscience. It's no easy task for indoctrinated JW's to allow themselves to see beyond what they are told to look at.
Each one of us "drifts" or fades differently, but it seems you've already taken the first big step in having not preached in half a year. You are now considered "inactive" and thus you will probably be receiving some "shepherding" calls from your elders, particularly come CO visit time.
You have a few options:
-You can tell them the truth about your conclusions, which will most likely result in your DF
-You can maneuver the system to your advantage to bend the truth of your thoughts. (for instance when ray franz was asked if he thought the GB was the "slave", he said "it could be") This might not guarantee you wont be DF, but if you play your cards right, you can get away as someone who has doubts, but is not an apostate.
-You can hide, switching congs and avoiding shepherding calls altogether, but this does not seem to be a realistic option for you.
Anyways, you can read my story here
A few months later, my wife also opened her eyes and posted her story here


 
tornapart
tornapart 16 hours ago

Same here Pale emperor. I've been fading for a few years now and only just recently became inactive. Hubby's an elder. However, I don't feel I owe anybody an explanation as to why I don't do certain things. If I'm asked for my report I just say I haven't got one. If I'm asked why I don't go to the meetings I just say I don't want to. It's a free country, I'm a free human being with free choices that God gave me. No one can make do anything I no longer want to do. I haven't lost my family, possibly because I've taken it slowly and they can see where I'm coming from, even if they don't agree with me. All it takes is to be quietly assertive.
Also, whatever you do, don't accept a shepherding visit. Say you'd rather not talk to anyone. No explanations, just say no thanks.
 +2 / -0
Jehalapeno
Jehalapeno 16 hours ago

Completely ignore the text.
That is your best route.
In the name of Jehalapeño, Serrano, and the Holy Ghost Pepper, amen.
 
Drifting Away
Drifting Away 16 hours ago
Pale.empror, I am expecting the same kind of treatment with a call soon about wanting to get together and ask what is going on with me, but my response will just be " Yeh, I have some personal matters I am dealing with at moment, and If I need your help, I will contact you" Hopefully that buys you some more time.
 +2 / -0
Andy Dufresne
Andy Dufresne 16 hours ago

Hey Pale Emperor
I empathise with you a lot - I was in very much the same situation and with many the same thoughts.
"Manning up" and spitting it like it is isn't always a best solution if you want to avoid conflict IMHO. I agree with the idea that you DO need to tell elders to step off.... but there are ways and there are **ways** if you know what I mean. It does you no favours to come across aggressive unless you NEED to be, in my personal view.


If you want to leave AND preserve your family it is a VERY long and arduous process, as already said. Personally, I very much envy people who have been able to make a clean break.
Firstly, you need to understand the nature of the organisation. With an open mind, read Combatting Cult Mind Control by Steve Hassan. I think you can even get it on kindle. The 25th? Anniversary Edition is now out, and has extra info which you will find interesting to compare with how JW.Org is now developing online content.
See if your other doubts and criticism correlate at all with the examples & identifiers of cults (aka the BITE model) that Hassan presents. The very doubts you express in your OP are your starting point - IMHO they are all elements of control.
Next - **plan** your exit. Your fade/draw away must be gradual enough to not set alarms ringing if moving to a new town or DA'ing sin't an option.
Unless you UTTERLY trust your wife, DO NOT openly discuss your doubts because many JWs will immediately blow the whistle if they smell "apostasy". Remember that in the minds of some JWs even SPEAKING doubts is apostasy, not just SPREADING them.
You need to be clear in your own mind WHY you are fading, even if you don't use this info to explain it to other JWs.
RESEARCH RESEARCH RESEARCH. Truth stands up under investigation. It doesn't necessarily led to becoming an atheist either. But without "remaking you mind" by looking at BOTH sides you will never be sure and the "indoctrination" of meetings, assemblies etc will be more effective counteracting the expansion of knowledge you are allowing yourself.
Remember too that you might be labelled "weak". You are NOT the weak one. You are the strong one for facing to the challenge of proving the facts. It's far easier to give in and immerse yourself only in one point of view and suppress your own intelligence/ curiousity.
As you discover more about "TTATT" (the truth about the truth) you may find yourself conflicted and emotionally compromised. Many people go through grief stages including depression and anger. Again, depending on how much you trust your wife, be cautious how you vent these emotions.
Either way, you may wish to use any illness/anxiety/depression as a reason for your declining enthusiasm. This helps deflect prying JWs. Many offer to "help" - but this means re-convincing you of the "party line". Rather than putting a band aid over those doubts I'd suggest you pick at them...it's painful but a good way to get rid of any poisonous "puss" and heal/get your OWN understanding from a plethora of facts and viewpoints that are out there.
If your are chased by "well meaning" elders, tell them you are not in a fit state to discuss any issues/problems. Tell them you need time get your head around things. Tell them YOU know where THEY are - politely thank them for their interest and say YOU will be in touch if you need them. Softly softly. Withdraw from comments, "privledges", reduce service, say you're too unwell for talks & items. Miss meetings with gradually increasing frequency. You may find that a certain number of missed meetings/weeks is a "trigger point" for you group elder's "concerned" phone call. For me, it was 8 meetings missed in a row, so I'd make sure to be see every 7th meeting then made the gap longer and longer.
IMHO The MOST important thing is for you to start to build relationships, friendships, support networks NOW with good people who are non-JWs. You WILL need to vent to someone - although you can always do that here, or on several (secret) growing Facebook groups. This way too, if things come to a head and an entirely conflict-free fade isn't successful you will have means of emotional support if you do end up being shunned.
Sorry to ramble on - a long slow successful fade is VERY difficult. Be patient and be subtle if you truly want to keep you family.


You have my very best wishes.
 +2 / -0

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Topic Summary
im in the process of drifting out.
my entire family are jw's.
my wife and her family are too.



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Bible Visit
by Michelle 20 hours ago 6 Replies latest 9 hours ago   jw friends
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Michelle
Michelle 20 hours ago
Is anyone here from Imus Cavite? I need someone come to our house. I need someone to invite my father. I need your help.
 +1 / -0
jookbeard
jookbeard 19 hours ago
invite to where? could you speak to the priests/vicars/deacons/vergers/clergyman of any local nearby church?
 +2 / -1
FayeDunaway
FayeDunaway 12 hours ago
Michelle, nobody needs a high control religion to come swoop in and take their life over. It would only serve their own purposes. They want you to serve as one of their minions. If you want religion in your life, try a regular church, not a cult.
 +2 / -1
freddo
freddo 11 hours ago

Hi Michelle,
I guess you are in the Philippines - what is your father's interest in Jehovah's Witnesses?
 +2 / -0
steve2
steve2 10 hours ago
I wonder if English is not Michelle's main language?
 +2 / -0
defender of truth
defender of truth 9 hours ago

Hi Michelle. Welcome. :smile:
Paul Grundy, who made a site called jwfacts has a wife who is Philipino. She served as a Jehovah's Witnesses there. Maybe you will have met her?
He might be able to help you with any information you need.

Please send email to:
info@jwfacts.com
I hope that helps you. :wink:
(I don't expect there will be any more posts after this, but you might ignore them if there are.
Please ignore jookbeard and Fayedunaway.

Anybody can post here, some are not Jehovah's Witnesses.)
 +2 / -0
defender of truth
defender of truth 9 hours ago

To whoever disliked my post, please re-read the thread and think again.
I am only trying to help her. Maybe someone hit the wrong button, it doesn't matter. :wink:
 +1 / -1

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Another Newbie
by Drifting Away 16 hours ago 17 Replies latest 6 hours ago   jw friends
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Drifting Away
Drifting Away 16 hours ago
Hello, I have been lurking for a while, but discovered TTATT for about 8 months now. I am trying to fade out, Problem is I have a big family I would lose if I got DF'ed or DA,'ed myself. My wife Knows how I feel, and is not thrilled but I cant hide my feelings. There is so much I have learned these past few months it is incredible. I was brought up a JW, so kinda just went along with it. Anyway, I will give my full story one day, but don't want to say too much now. Look forward to chatting on these boards..
 +17 / -0
freemindfade
freemindfade 16 hours ago
Welcome
 
freddo
freddo 16 hours ago
Hello! Welcome to you.
 
Bugbear
Bugbear 16 hours ago

Drifting away!
I faded about 20 years ago. Now I am DA.éd. My entire family (6 children) are also saved. Still my wife is in!!! But I guess spiriually week - since non of her family members like her behaviour. Saying this only to assure you that you are not lonesam.
We still wait for her...... But I know her friends (in cong.) means to much. She suffers from cognitive dissonance.... But her cong. is shrinking rapidly...
You must take it easy and never confront your wife or relatives with your knowledge of ttatt... Just wait and say that you are sick have depression or anything
Bugbear
 +3 / -0
ToesUp
ToesUp 16 hours ago
Welcome! Lots of new ones joining! That's great!
 +3 / -0
SpiritualGal08
SpiritualGal08 16 hours ago

Hello Drifting Away~Welcome to our forum. Please remember this, the Organization thrives on fear--fear of losing your family and friends, fear of losing your life at Armageddon, fear of losing Jehovah's approval, fear of never doing enough.FEAR, FEAR, FEAR!!! Well, ENOUGH of the FEAR! We were not meant to live in fear nor were we meant to live a life without joy. The life JW's live is one of being an automaton, mind-controlled being told what to think, do, and how to act. Do you REALLY think that is a life of JOY? JOY is one of the FRUITS of the Holy Spirit...how many Witnesses do you observe truly living as one who has the Holy Spirit based on the FRUITS of their lives? Joy is missing from their lives as is LOVE! Is fear really worth living like that?
There are only two options with F.E.A.R.: 1. Forget Everything And Run, or 2. Face Everything And RISE!
Together, we can be the light helping others to see their way out of the darkness that surrounds those still in the organization who see no way out. I encourage you to continue your journey (as you feel comfortable) to reach out and with each step, it will become easier and easier to step into your power, taking back your life. I lost all my life-long friends and my family when I left the organization when I was df'd eight years ago. It has only been in the past year or so that I have fully been able to shake the effects of the mind control with the guilt, shame and fear so I know it is a process. But once I made my stand, allowed myself permission to get off the proverbial fence to take my power back and live MY LIFE, without being concerned with what THEY thought of me, I have truly felt free.I am speaking MY TRUTH. So while it does take time to totally break free for most of us, each step I took along the way, no matter how small, has lead to where I am today...know you are important, and your life is YOURS and you CAN have a relationship with Jesus, the Angels, and God if that is what you desire without being part of the Organization.
I share this not just for you but for everyone who is considering the first steps of mentally disentangling themselves from the bOrg...remember, the magic happens just outside your comfort zone. You must face your fears and decide if you want to spend the rest of your life living in that fear or outside of it...the choice is yours and we are here to support you in your journey.
All the best
 +5 / -0
My Name is of No Consequence
My Name is of No Consequence 16 hours ago
Welcome aboard!
 
GoneAwol
GoneAwol 15 hours ago
Hi Drifting Away! Always trust your feelings. You have them for a reason. Take it easy, keep digging and learning. Welcome to the world of the real.
 +1 / -1
millie210
millie210 15 hours ago

Hi Drifting Away,
I completely understand about your being reluctant to say much. Its fine to just lean in to things instead of leap.
Lots of wonderful listening ears and good friends await you here on this forum!
 +3 / -0
Giordano
Giordano 14 hours ago

Welcome Drifting Away:
I wrote the following for another poster who wanted to spare a young man from getting DA or DFed.
What may be of help is to have a superior position as your one and only reason to step away from all things JW.
There is growing knowledge about an on going pedophile problem in the JW world.
Children are being sexually abused by other JW's posing as a friend of the family or a brother in good standing and the problem extends to some of the Elders as well. The sad truth of the matter is that the policy of the WTBTS has been and continues to be to hide this problem to keep their righteous appearance in the community. To achieve this end result there is an impediment in place when the local Elders are informed that a JW child has been sexually abused. It's called the two witness rule and is enforced if the pedophile denies the crime.
By stressing this Old testament rule they in effect hide behind this two witness rule and by confining the investigation they can and do sweep the crime under the table.
So the recent Australian Royal Commission (still investigating) is looking into religions that have an ongoing history of covering up their sexual child abuse problem.
The commission, or ARC for short, has found that under the direction of the WTBTS child sexual abuse calls for two witnesses If the abuser denies the charge. Since 1950, when records were first mandated to be kept by the congregations to the present day, shows that their were 1006 cases where a JW was accused of molestation with as many as 1800 total victims (pedophiles are serial abusers) and not a single case was ever reported to the police!
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/6276815245017088/australian-royal-commission-findings-released
I feel that this issue, which is being reported about world wide by TV media, in newspapers and through the actual televised hearing's of ARC that this issue is one of the best ways to discourage the Elder's from getting involved with you. Plus gives you the high moral ground.
If you are sickened by this and stick to this one issue and say nothing further against the JW's they are not going to be able to deny that this has been happening and continues to this day.
When Jesus rebuked his disciples from blocking the children from coming to him he said in Matt 19:14  "Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." Apparently the WTBTS thinks the kingdom of heaven belongs to them even though they are hindering the children.
 +2 / -0

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Another Newbie
by Drifting Away 16 hours ago 17 Replies latest 6 hours ago   jw friends
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raven
raven 13 hours ago

Hi there DA,
I too am in the process of fading, it is a very painful process personally, I would love to talk back and forth to see how things are going for you on your journey. I was born into the org as well, pioneer of the congragation, parts at assemblies and conventions, yada yada... I have always felt something was off but ignored it and went along with things for the happiness of others...
Much love to you on your journey, I'm very interested in getting to read your story soon someday!
 +4 / -0
DesirousOfChange
DesirousOfChange 12 hours ago

WELCOME!
The fact that your wife knows your feelings and isn't fighting you on the issue is very positive. I would think that it means that she has some serious doubts and concerns too. But there is always that "Where else would we go?" thing that holds people captive.
The best advice anyone can offer is GO SLOW! Just like the new JW Study who runs and blasts all their family members with what they are "learning" from their Bible Study, we tend to do the same thing when we discover TTATT. This is particularly true if you're trying to ease your wife to exit too.
Baby Steps.
Good luck,
Doc

 +1 / -0
Ding
Ding 11 hours ago

Welcome!
When you tell us your story, please include (1) what first got you questioning the WT and (2) what finally convinced you that it's not the truth?

 +1 / -0
John Free
John Free 11 hours ago

Hello drifting!!
You are one of the strong ones. You found the courage to confront the truth about 'the truth'. Take things slowly with your nearest and dearest, play a good game and pretend your just 'struggling'.
Congratulations and welcome to freedom.
 +2 / -0
Slidin Fast
Slidin Fast 11 hours ago
You are with friends, real friends.
 +1 / -0
steve2
steve2 11 hours ago

Welcome Drifting Away. The great thing about linking in with a forum such as this is you can post as and when you want to and are able.
I totally get what it is like when so many of one's family, extended family and friends are in some way connected to the jw organization.
There is no urgency.
The only ones who will be telling you there is urgency are JWs trying to spook you back into returning. They have always cashed in on the illusion that the end is almost here. Meanwhile, decades keeping passing by, oblivious to religious threats about the nearness of the end.
Take your time - it's actually on your side.
 +1 / -0
Billy the Ex-Bethelite
Billy the Ex-Bethelite 7 hours ago

Welcome!
If you want to fade, take your time, do your research, and figure out what you're comfortable with. My fade took a few years, but it has been worth it. There's no need to be in a huge hurry, it's not like armageddon is coming any time soon.

 +2 / -0
goingthruthemotions
goingthruthemotions 6 hours ago

Welcome Drifting away....I am in the same boat. I have been for 2.5 years. all i could say is batten down the hatches. it's going to be a stormy ride.
Good luck!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 +1 / -0

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Topic Summary
hello, i have been lurking for a while, but discovered ttatt for about 8 months now.
i am trying to fade out, problem is i have a big family i would lose if i got df'ed or da,'ed myself.
my wife knows how i feel, and is not thrilled but i cant hide my feelings.



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by DarioKehl a year ago



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Friends of onacruise
by Onacruise2NephewBoogaloo 14 hours ago 6 Replies latest a few seconds ago   jw experiences
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Onacruise2NephewBoogaloo
Onacruise2NephewBoogaloo 14 hours ago

I was born into The Elastic Fact, Tract & Knock Knock Club, as it is known to some, but most often you will hear them referred to as "the worst thing I've ever been through."I had the typical JW early life of forced compliance by sadistic joy killing narcissists. I learned early on that 'new light' doesn't come from stifled children and there was no suggestion box at my house.
When I was 6 my parents divorced and my mom quickly remarried and we moved from Portland to the Oregon coast. The stepdad soon became an elder and the congo PO. The only welcome thing about the 'dad-swap' was his older brothers.The oldest of these was a funny, gentle giant and genius who taught me to think beyond my thoughts and the things I was taught.
He's the reason I joined this forum. I called him "The Uncle Monster" because he was huge and would attack my brothers and I in our blanket forts. Some of you veterans of this forum knew him as Craig Mills. I believe there are others here who knew him as Onacruise.
I came here because I miss him, and have deep regrets about not keeping closer contact with him. His early passing makes that impossible now. I left the Dub Club years before he did and despite being shunned by everyone I was ever allowed to know, I had special resentment towards Craig, because I expected more from him. He was supposed to try.
As of this year, I have been out longer than i was in. Not one try by any witness. Not one family member or friend. Later when Craig was df-ed, he called me to apologize and we reconciled, but it seemed clear to both of us that the damage this cult does to families had been done to us. We had many great conversations on the phone, but things were different. Our connection had been broken, and I still believed he was indestructible.
My hope is that by interacting with this group, I may find a way to forgive myself for not being there for him, and to better understand where he was in his mind during his last years. I'm not looking for pats on the back and "Don't beat yourself ups". I had no clue what he was going through and thought we had more time. Imagine that. Whether you knew Craig or not, this was the last place he hung out and he loved it here.
As a member of the Ex-JW community, I know we are right to be suspicious of new comers showing up wanting to integrate, while being WT plants and narks, thus the introduction. Feel free to ask/tell me anything you like including verifying who I say I am and I'm sure there are parts of his life you may not have felt comfy asking about. Now when you see me lurking around your forums, you'll at least know what brand of apostate lies I'm shoveling :grinning:
 +9 / -0
HappyDad
HappyDad 14 hours ago

Welcome nehew..
I had many a great phone call with Craig when I first came on this forum in 2004. He was someone that you would immediately take to because he understood where you were coming from. It is too bad that I was on the other side of the country.
Yeah, I miss him too.
HappyDad
 +3 / -0
cofty
cofty 13 hours ago
Hi welcome to the forum.
 +2 / -0
millie210
millie210 13 hours ago

Thanks for making me feel like I knew Onacruise personally by reading your words.
This reminds me just how much we say and do NOW can impact people later for the good.
So thanks for that and Im glad youre here.
 +2 / -0
BluesBrother
BluesBrother 13 hours ago

I well remember Onacruise.... One of the great old timer board members who made it what it is . Directly or indirectly we all owe him and the other oldies.
I am saddened to hear of his passing. What you have said about him ties in with my memories of his warm posts on here.. One of the good guys!
Welcome though to his nephew, may you find joy and happiness here ..keep posting
 +2 / -0
Simon
Simon 5 hours ago

Welcome to the site.
I'm not sure if you know but he was actually a moderator on this site and helped run it so was directly responsible for helping make it what it is.
I hope he enjoyed doing it and it helped him. We appreciated the help he gave us.
The one bad thing about running a site like this for an extended period of time is that eventually people pass on. Sometimes it feels a bit like "Lost" - it's about the connections we make and overlapping lives and experiences along the way.
Sometimes people make an impression and being remembered is the best most of us can hope for.
 +3 / -0
ZAPPA-ESQUE
ZAPPA-ESQUE a few seconds ago

The Elastic Fact, Tract & Knock Knock Club = a great title for a book by someone like Tom Wolfe .......love it !
You are a victim ..............of victims ...............Welcome and stop beating yourself up about certain regrets that were really beyond your control !
 

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My sister who is still in is going to Costa Rica as a missionary
by time2keepmoving 9 hours ago 13 Replies latest 22 minutes ago   jw friends
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time2keepmoving
time2keepmoving 9 hours ago
I left the organization in 2011 and never look back. I left behind my sister and her two daughters by mid 2015 both her daughters (both are in their early twenties) were disfellowshipped and left the organization. They are still out. She has decided to go to Costa Rica as a missionary (I guess that's what they are still calling them, unless that has changed, been gone so long I don't know if they came up with a new term for it). She is leaving in a year for good. I can't for the life of me understand how she can leave both her daughters behind and her 3 year old grandson for this organization. She is the only one left. Nobody else in my family is a JW, nobody. It just amazes me how she is still holding on and is still dedicated to this cult. She has never lived outside of the United States and I wonder how she will get alone with absolutely no family or husband. She is going over there as a single sister in her late forties.
 +3 / -0
Crazyguy
Crazyguy 8 hours ago
she in her mind has nothing left so she's committed. Sad but that's what brain washing over time does to a person.
 +2 / -0
OnTheWayOut
OnTheWayOut 8 hours ago
I feel for you. There's probably nothing others can say to talk her out of this. Her reward will be in her mind- a good name with Jehovah so that He will resurrect her.
 +1 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 8 hours ago

Sad, another life wasted propagating human ignorance and corruption by a single religious publishing house.

 +2 / -0
time2keepmoving
time2keepmoving 7 hours ago
@crazyguy - yes, I feel like she thinks she has nothing left so might as well go to a foreign country and try to forget. She is holding on to this cult like it is all she has, as if her daughters leaving the organization has left her with nothing and nobody. The mind control is strong with her.
 +1 / -0
the girl next door
the girl next door 7 hours ago

Sounds like she has decided to serve where "the need is great". Costa Rica is a popular "need greater" destination. Usually she would have to be invited by a host congregation, but it is not unheard of for JWs to just pack up and head to places like Costa Rica or Belize. There are english speaking only congregations scattered throughout CR that have 30 to 60 publishers. Typically 2 or 3 elders. Tourist destinations are usually where these english congregations are set up. She will have a good time. Pioneer hours are simple to make as much of the territory is rural and spread out and accessible to foot traffic only.
But nearly everywhere you go, the locals are Catholic and the tourists do not want to waste their time being preached to. The adventure will be high, generally the social aspects of the congregations are high as well. Lots of "get togethers" for any and every reason.
After a while the novelty wears off. You grow weary of aros con pollo. And dealing with insects and other wildlife just becomes a pain in the ass. Most new "need greaters" last a couple of years and then head home or move on.
Theft is a huge concern too. It happens all the time everywhere in CR. If it is not strapped to your body, it will be taken.
 +4 / -0
Billy the Ex-Bethelite
Billy the Ex-Bethelite 7 hours ago


She is going over there as a single sister in her late forties.
Going to Costa Rica as a need-greater? She needs a better retirement plan than that!

 +4 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 6 hours ago

Once the initial enthusiasm wears off, and also the novelty, she will find herself alone and battling to get by.
The initial peer praises will also fade as people forget about her as she will be out of sight, out of mind
 +4 / -0
James Mixon
James Mixon 6 hours ago

Serving in Belize was the best time of all my years in the organization, Costa Rica is
even better. A single sister that will be interesting, it will be rough for her is she don't
find a mate, but what a place to serve. She will find out that sisters don't get the same respect
as married couples or single brothers.
 +3 / -0
Pete Zahut
Pete Zahut 4 hours ago

It's called "serving where the need is more fun". Not many people go to Gnome Alaska or somewhere else in the frozen north where people live, yet few JW's around to spread the life saving news. It's typically places with sandy beaches that they head for.
I think now these folks have to finance themselves because of the "money issues" the Watchtower is having these days. Did she have a home to sell in this country? Most likely her money will go farther down there. She also could be hoping she'll be more "exotic" there being a foreigner and will find a husband who lives there and already has things set up.

 +3 / -0

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My sister who is still in is going to Costa Rica as a missionary
by time2keepmoving 9 hours ago 13 Replies latest 23 minutes ago   jw friends
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transhuman68
transhuman68 4 hours ago
Sometimes I think the JWs do exactly what they want; but just find a 'theocratic' reason for doing it - could just be a mid-life crisis thing. My sister & her husband are in Ecuador - supposedly for holier than thou witnessing, but now my sister is making soap - bringing cleanliness to the unwashed masses of Sth Americans! Too funny. It's a cheap place to live, anyway...
 +3 / -0
fulano
fulano 3 hours ago

I have known hundreds of those " Needgreaters ", all on the white sandy beaches. Making long days in field service, some even 12 hours to have three or four days off for partying on the beach. Never willing to go where we needed them, in the very hot primitive area with the border with Haïti for example.
It became so rediculous that we even had CA's in english! I mean, the first thing you need to do is learn the local language.
"Adventurers with alibi and local support".
 +3 / -0
time2keepmoving
time2keepmoving an hour ago
I don't know how she plans to support herself over there. She does know a elder and his wife who live there and so I guess they are the ones encouraging her to come. She seems hyped up about it but again, if she has some savings, I still don't know how she will make it after that has been exhausted or how she will pay for medical attention if she needs it.
 
sir82
sir82 23 minutes ago

It always kills me how the "need greaters" always go to tropical locations which still have a decent standard of living if you have at least a little money.
The "cool kids" (whose wealthy parents subsidize their pioneering) always end up in the Dominican Republic, Costa Rica, Ecuador, Belize, etc.

Why do they never go to, say, North Dakota? Manitoba? Angola? Papua New Guinea? Lots of congregations need lots of help there too.

 

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Topic Summary
i left the organization in 2011 and never look back.
i left behind my sister and her two daughters by mid 2015 both her daughters (both are in their early twenties) were disfellowshipped and left the organization.
she has decided to go to costa rica as a missionary (i guess that's what they are still calling them, unless that has changed, been gone so long i don't know if they came up with a new term for it).



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JW Story on Dateline this Friday
by ShirleyW 6 hours ago 2 Replies latest 6 hours ago   jw friends
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ShirleyW
ShirleyW 6 hours ago

Pam Candelario, Ralph Candelario, Dateline NBC: Colorado man killed Second Wife, FIrst Wife Still Missing



The title of an article in The Inqusitr, I get the Google Alerts for the Dubs, but this site for some reason I couldn't do a cut and paste, anyway, if you're interested to see why one of Jehovahs loyal servants would kill his 1st and 2nd wives it's supposed to be broadcast this Friday at 10pm EST.
 +2 / -0
dazed but not confused
dazed but not confused 6 hours ago
Thanks for the heads up. I will be watchin.

 
dazed but not confused
dazed but not confused 6 hours ago

http://www.nbcnews.com/dateline/video/preview-all-new-dateline-friday-663702595869
This town is abt 3 hrs South from me.

 

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/ Cognitive Dissonance is the feeling of uncomfortable tension which comes from holding two conflicting thoughts in the mind at the same time.
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Cognitive Dissonance is the feeling of uncomfortable tension which comes from holding two conflicting thoughts in the mind at the same time.
by Sledracer 6 hours ago 3 Replies latest 19 minutes ago   jw experiences
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Sledracer
Sledracer 6 hours ago
Cognitive Dissonance is the feeling of uncomfortable tension which comes from holding two conflicting thoughts in the mind at the same time. This is what is wrong with me, I have a love hate relationship with the jw's.
 +1 / -0
just fine
just fine 5 hours ago
I hope that you can take the next steps and explore your love/hate feelings and decide what you think/believe vs what you are taught. It's hard to work your way through it. Good luck 🍀
 +1 / -0
pale.emperor
pale.emperor an hour ago

I'm going through the same thing. Eventually one will win out though.
I also find that im going through cycles of sadness, anger, lack of interest etc over and over throughout the day.
we need to be careful though, because once we let go there'll be a vacuum. People tend to fill that vacuum with another religion or an addiction. But in reality we dont have to, we can get a new hobby and absorb ourselves into that until we settle down.

 
GoneAwol
GoneAwol 19 minutes ago

Its an awful process to go through, and some cope better than others. Or should I say, come to a quicker conclusion than others.
If there is poisen in the drinking water, however small an amount, would you drink it?
 

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Kobe 60 points last game
by James Mixon 3 hours ago 1 Replies latest 2 hours ago   jw friends
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James Mixon
James Mixon 3 hours ago
The old guy went out with a bang..L.A Lakers. A great career
 +1 / -0
Simon
Simon 2 hours ago

Some of what Americans think is sport I'm guessing, one of those minority sports that the rest of the world ignores. No doubts lots of talking before, during and after the game, whatever it is.
Or expensive beef?
The big sports news this week is that Man City are through to the semi finals of the Champions League and Barcelona are out. We could win it !!!
 

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James Mixon
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Kobe 60 points last game
by James Mixon in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 3 hours ago
the old guy went out with a bang..l.a lakers.

a great career

Simon
2 hours ago
Sledracer
2
Cognitive Dissonance is the feeling of uncomfortable tension which comes from holding two conflicting thoughts in the mind at the same time.
by Sledracer in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Personal Experiences & Reunions
 6 hours ago
cognitive dissonance is the feeling of uncomfortable tension which comes from holding two conflicting thoughts in the mind at the same time.

this is what is wrong with me, i have a love hate relationship with the jw's.

just fine
pale.emperor
an hour ago
ShirleyW
2
JW Story on Dateline this Friday
by ShirleyW in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 6 hours ago
pam candelario, ralph candelario, dateline nbc: colorado man killed second wife, first wife still missing.

.

the title of an article in the inqusitr, i get the google alerts for the dubs, but this site for some reason i couldn't do a cut and paste, anyway, if you're interested to see why one of jehovahs loyal servants would kill his 1st and 2nd wives it's supposed to be broadcast this friday at 10pm est..

dazed but not confused
dazed but not confused
6 hours ago
time2keepmoving
13
My sister who is still in is going to Costa Rica as a missionary
by time2keepmoving in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 9 hours ago
i left the organization in 2011 and never look back.

i left behind my sister and her two daughters by mid 2015 both her daughters (both are in their early twenties) were disfellowshipped and left the organization.

she has decided to go to costa rica as a missionary (i guess that's what they are still calling them, unless that has changed, been gone so long i don't know if they came up with a new term for it).

fulano
time2keepmoving
sir82
26 minutes ago
Onacruise2NephewBoogaloo
5
Friends of onacruise
by Onacruise2NephewBoogaloo in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Personal Experiences & Reunions
 15 hours ago
i was born into the elastic fact, tract & knock knock club, as it is known to some, but most often you will hear them referred to as "the worst thing i've ever been through.

"i had the typical jw early life of forced compliance by sadistic joy killing narcissists.

i learned early on that 'new light' doesn't come from stifled children and there was no suggestion box at my house.. when i was 6 my parents divorced and my mom quickly remarried and we moved from portland to the oregon coast.

millie210
BluesBrother
Simon
5 hours ago
Drifting Away
17
Another Newbie
by Drifting Away in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 16 hours ago
hello, i have been lurking for a while, but discovered ttatt for about 8 months now.

i am trying to fade out, problem is i have a big family i would lose if i got df'ed or da,'ed myself.

my wife knows how i feel, and is not thrilled but i cant hide my feelings.

steve2
Billy the Ex-Bethelite
goingthruthemotions
6 hours ago
Michelle
6
Bible Visit
by Michelle in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 20 hours ago
is anyone here from imus cavite?

i need someone come to our house.

i need someone to invite my father.

steve2
defender of truth
defender of truth
9 hours ago
pale.emperor
15
Drifting what i've feared has started already...
by pale.emperor in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Personal Experiences & Reunions
 20 hours ago
im in the process of drifting out.

my entire family are jw's.

my wife and her family are too.

Jehalapeno
Drifting Away
Andy Dufresne
16 hours ago
purrpurr
5
Thinking of writing a book about jw's, what should I put in it?
by purrpurr in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 21 hours ago
i've just finished reading alan miller's "fade from the truth", i enjoyed it and i love that it's freely available.

so i was thinking of writing a book of my own.

not an account of my life but more a simple step by step look at jw's and what they are really like?

JW_Rogue
atomant
punkofnice
an hour ago
RocketQueen
16
I'm a Non-JW looking to ask a few questions re dfing
by RocketQueen in Jehovah's Witnesses
 » Friends
 a day ago
someone close to me has been brought up as a jw since a very early age.

he's now looking to exit.

he was baptised as a teen and is now early 20s.

SpiritualGal08
pale.emperor
rawe
5 hours ago
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Lurking JWs: Do people really need to know and use the word "Jehovah" or other language equivalents, to truly know God?
by Island Man 6 hours ago 2 Replies latest 5 hours ago   watchtower bible
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Island Man
Island Man 6 hours ago

Watchtower puts forth the argument that you can't really know God unless you know and use the appellation "Jehovah" or its equivalent in other languages. Is this really true? I say it's not true and I will demonstrate to you why.
God's name is not a mere label that we have to use to communicate with him so that he knows we're talking to him. God can read hearts and will know that a worshiper is addressing him even if that worshiper does not use a form of the word "Jehovah". For example, the gospels show that Jesus never directly addressed God in prayer with the name "Jehovah". He always addressed him as "Father". So one does not need to use the name "Jehovah" for God to know that he is addressing Him.
Also, it is often not necessary to use "Jehovah" to distinguish him from other gods when conversing with others about which god you worship. Unlike ancient times when polytheism was rampant and worshipers of "Jehovah" were in the minority, the world today has a very high percentage of theists that worship "Jehovah" (the god of the bible) and one often only needs to use the word "God" or say he is christian for others to know which god he worships.

So really, the labeling and distinguishing functions of the name is not as important as JWs make it out to be. So what about the name is important? It has to be the meaning of the name. Since God's name has a descriptive meaning, then God's name is actually a description of who he is. Therefore knowing god's name is really about knowing who god is - his character or nature as described by the meaning of the name. So look at this:
"Jehovah" means "He Causes to Become" and Watchtower says it alludes to the fact that God causes himself or his creations to become whatever he wishes so that his will can be accomplished. Think about that meaning for a while. Can you think of any words or titles that encompasses the meaning of the name? Of course you can! "Creator". Doesn't a creator quite literally cause things to become? What about the term "Almighty" or "All-Powerful"? Do these not also convey the impression of one who has the power to do anything - to cause anyone or anything to become anything he desires? Really, the expression "He Causes to Become" is just a fancy way of saying "He that does things", "He that makes things", "the Prime Causer", "the living God", "the active God" - the God that actually has the power to do things and cause things to happen, unlike the other lifeless idol gods, etc.
Now honestly ask yourself this question: Does a person have to know the word "Jehovah" and it's meaning, in order to know these things about the God of the bible? If a person studied a modern KJV that uses "LORD" and omits "Jehovah", would he not still learn from it that God is Almighty, Creator, Prime Causer? Would he not still learn that God has the power to cause anyone or anything to become whatever desires it or them to become? So you see a person does not have to know the word "Jehovah" to know God's name - to know that God causes to become. For the very name of God is demonstrated by his dealings recorded in the bible. So everyone who is familiar with any bible unavoidably comes to know God's name whether or not the bible contains the word "Jehovah"!
So really, JWs are making a big fuss over the use of a label - the meaning of which is known by virtually all bible-reading christians even without them having to know the actual label, for the whole bible reveals the name of God and so it is foolish to claim that persons don't know God's name, just because they don't know the word "Jehovah". It's shallow, legalistic thinking on the part of the JWs. They focus on telling people to know and use a word when the very persons already know the essence and meaning of that word even without literally knowing the word itself.
So when non-JW christians use titles like "God", "Father" and "Lord", and in their hearts ascribe to these titles the same connotations of "Almighty", "Prime Causer", etc, and think of him as someone who has the power to cause anyone or anything to become whatever he desires - aren't they actually using God's name in their hearts, to the extent that they know the meaning of the name and ascribe it to a label? Think about it.

 +1 / -0
dbq407
dbq407 6 hours ago
The best part is they say his name is the most important in the universe and they openly admit that the name Jehovah isn't the most accurate.
 +1 / -0
Island Man
Island Man 5 hours ago

Here's an interesting scripture that applies to JWs and the issue of them judging others as not being christians because they don't use "Jehovah":

"Who are you to judge the house servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for Jehovah can make him stand." - Romans 14:4
This verse is full of irony when applied to JWs' judgmental attitude on the use of the word "Jehovah". By saying persons aren't true christians if they don't use "Jehovah", JWs are actually denying the meaning of God's name! How so?
Look at what the last sentence in the verse says: "he will be made to stand, for Jehovah can make him stand."
In other words, Jehovah - He that causes to become - can cause those who don't use the word "Jehovah" to be standing as true christians. But by saying you can't be a true christian if you're not using "Jehovah", JWs are denying God's ability to cause such ones to be standing. They are saying the lack of usage of the name "Jehovah" is greater than what the name stands for. They are paradoxically denying the meaning of the name of God in their quest to promote the use of "Jehovah". LOL.

 

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Update - Talk # 6 THE FLOOD OF NOAH’S DAY AND YOU
by ttdtt a day ago 18 Replies latest 6 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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ttdtt
ttdtt a day ago

Instead of scraping this talk they updated it.
So they still try and make this look like it happened, and that there is plenty of evidence.
To do that they refer to the (w08 6/1 8) found at http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2008411
The main evidence is that floods have happened in the past, including...
Geologists studying the landscape of the northwestern United States believe that as many as 100 ancient catastrophic floods once washed over the area. One such flood is said to have roared through the region with a wall of water 2,000 feet [600 m] high, traveling at 65 miles an hour [105 km/hr]—a flood of 500 cubic miles [2,000 cu km] of water, weighing more than two trillion tons. Similar  findings have led other scientists to believe that a global flood is a distinct possibility.
I could not find such an event, except for remembering one of those "disaster" shows on Discover about that. A giant tsunami long long ago.
Notice there are NO references. Also NO note stating that those "100 ancient floods" happened over the course of thousands and thousands of years, not at the same time, thus proving nothing about a global flood.
And what similar findings and what scientists think there was a global flood, and do they think it happened 4k years ago?
TONS OF INGENUINE BS
Here is a list of past ones. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megatsunami#List_of_megatsunamis
OH HERE IS THE NEW OUTLINE.



 +2 / -0
cofty
cofty a day ago

Evidence exists that is consistent with the Flood account (1) Geologic evidence (2) Fossil evidence
Bollocks
 +2 / -0
konceptual99
konceptual99 a day ago
Bollocks with a crusty topping of bullshite I would say Cofty.
 +1 / -0
konceptual99
konceptual99 a day ago

I wonder if the reference in the WT has some relationship to the Missoula Floods...?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missoula_Floods

 +2 / -0
dozy
dozy a day ago

Sad to say , I remember giving this talk. I always tended to focus on the "bible says it's true so it must be true" angle and the principles and "modern day application" rather than focus on the story itself and the supposed geological , flood legends etc "evidence" as I always thought they sounded really dubious. If such a global catastrophic event really had occurred so recently - shouldn't there be vast amounts of evidence? What about all the animals only found in one place - lemurs in Madagascar , kangaroos , platypuses in Australia etc. It all sounded really unlikely.
One of my workmates was a good friend and had a keen interest in science and found it very amusing that I ( as a supposedly intelligent guy ) believed in such nonsense and he used to wind me up a bit about JW stuff , in a kind way ( he was a Tottenham supporter so I could give as good as I got in return!) In the dying days of my JW life we were away overnight one time at a works seminar and over a pint ( or three ) we chatted about the flood and other things ( such as Adam & Eve etc ). He gave me an academic study into ice cores going back thousands of years that categorically showed there had been no such event.
I finally realised ( what I guess I always had subconsciously realised ) that a global flood as described in the bible about 4,000 years ago was total garbage. I went home , took the outline and my notes from my public talks file ( which by then was rapidly becoming much slimmer ) and binned them and never gave the talk again.
 +5 / -0
ttdtt
ttdtt a day ago

dozy - I think back at the stupid things I backed up in talks. All us exElders have done that.
I remember when is was still under the spell, I knew enough that the flood could not be caused by rain. I found all kinds of research done by the Air Force on atmospheric studies. It had very specific info on how much water was in the air, how much could the atmosphere possibly hold... I did research on the atmosphere in general, and had a long debate with another elder that the waters had to come from underground (stupid as well - but I thought it was more likely).
All his arguments about the Canopy (never mentioned or implied in the bible) and rain, were so easily dismissed but to no avail.
The Spell is Strong!
 +1 / -0
konceptual99
konceptual99 a day ago

I used to give this talk and the Science and The Bible one as well. I fancied myself as someone who could easily reconcile the science with the biblical accounts.
I remember also having a long conversation with a work mate about Adam and Eve and feeling very self-satisfied at how I had stood up for the Bible and used sound reasoning to bat away secular misconceptions.
When I started looking critically at things it took no time at all for the veil to be lifted. What had seemed so correct to me suddenly became ridiculous. The realisation that I had been blindly buying into such nonsense made me feel so small and stupid.
The relief when I stood down as an MS and never was asked to promote such nonsense again was huge.
 +2 / -0
WhatshallIcallmyself
WhatshallIcallmyself 15 hours ago

Hi,
Not only is there no evidence for a global flood a few thousand years ago but there is actually evidence that there wasn't...
1 - Contemporary societies of those times did not notice that this happened. That is a massive red flag to the claim of a worldwide event.
2 - A global event like the one described in the flood story would leave traces that are obvious flood deposits all over the world. They would be very obvious and in your face, being so recent geologically speaking (consider the KT boundary deposits that show the global effects of the asteroid that most likely killed of the dinosaurs).
3 - There isn't enough water on the planet and even if there were the amount of energy that would be released during such an event would vaporise all life on the planet (Did the ark have climate control??).
As for the fossil record: There are events captured that indicate an animal, or groups of, died due to a flood/mudslide event. It is a stretch, though, to conclude "Therefore Noah's flood is true!". Also, the sizes of animals indicate that a rather long time would be need for the mineralisation process to have completed (i.e. fossilised). Also the rocks that house the fossils have been dated as being many millions of years old... Nothing in the fossil record indicates a global flood a few thousand years ago; unless you want to ignore reality and make a story up of course...
Flood legends: They aren't all the same, are they...
I think we can see why higher education is frowned upon in the "truth"...


 +3 / -0
betterdaze
betterdaze 14 hours ago

The lying pen of the scribes is at it again (Jeremiah 8:8).
“One such flood” is actually Glacial Lake Missoula.





From the U.S. Geological Survey:
Missoula Floods: With the beginning of the Pleistocene time, about one million years ago, cooling temperatures provided conditions favorable for the creation of great sheets of moving ice. Thus began the Ice Age. At the end of the last Ice Age, a finger of the Cordilleran ice sheet crept southward into the Idaho panhandle, forming a large ice dam that blocked the mouth of the Clark Fork River, creating a massive lake 2,000 feet deep and containing more than 500 cubic miles of water. Glacial Lake Missoula stretched eastward for some 200 miles and contained more water than Lake Erie and Lake Ontario combined. When the highest of these ice dams failed, lake water burst through, shooting out at a rate 10 times the combined flow of all the rivers of the world. This towering mass of water and ice literally shook the ground as it thundered toward the Pacific Ocean, stripping away hundreds of feet of soil and cutting deep canyons -- "coulees" -- into the underlying bedrock. With flood speeds approaching 65 miles per hour, the lake would have drained in as little as 48 hours. Over time the Cordilleran ice sheet continued moving south and blocked the Clark Fork River again and again, recreating Glacial Lake Missoula. Over approximately 2,500 years, the lake, ice dam and flooding sequence was repeated dozens of times, leaving a lasting mark on the landscape.
From NOVA, Mystery of the Megaflood: “From these new findings we can reconstruct just how Glacial Lake Missoula sent two and a half trillion tons of water, nearly half of Lake Michigan, surging across the American northwest.”


 +3 / -0
betterdaze
betterdaze 14 hours ago

The shallow Bethelite writers’ problem is that the Missoula Ice Age floods (plural) were due to ice dams collapsing.
There are absolutely no “similar findings” connecting Missoula to the Biblical narrative where it rained for 40 days and nights, the flat earth’s climate was blissfully warm, and all was covered by a permanent water canopy.


Similar findings have led other scientists to believe that a global flood is a distinct possibility.
Those Young Earth Creationist “other scientists” can be found cross-quoting each other’s easily debunked pseudoscience “findings” @ Creation Ministries International (formerly Answers in Genesis) and Biblical Geology.

 +1 / -0

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Update - Talk # 6 THE FLOOD OF NOAH’S DAY AND YOU
by ttdtt a day ago 18 Replies latest 6 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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Esse quam videri
Esse quam videri 13 hours ago

How much water is on the earth?
United States Geological Survey


 +3 / -0
Esse quam videri
Esse quam videri 13 hours ago
 
 +2 / -0
freemindfade
freemindfade 13 hours ago
I can't believe any human being still believe this crock in the age we live in.
 +2 / -0
fulltimestudent
fulltimestudent 12 hours ago

Flood Legends:
Most (if not all) early human settlements were located close to rivers (for continuity of water supplies). If heavy rains occur, then the rivers flooded, and settlements may have been wiped out and some loss of life likely occurred. So it would seem that flood stories were often told, and likely (since they were oral stories) stories would be telescoped together.
When writing developed (and practical writing materials including a medium to write on) the stories that had been memorised for ages began to be recorded in writing. But there was a practical problem, what you could write was limited by the medium (and whether we would ever read it now was dependent on its durability) on which someone could write the story.
There were limits on the amount of writing material available. Around the Euphrates/Tigris river system, clay was used, so we have a flood story that endured, written on a clay cuneiform dated to the seventeenth century BCE and earlier. (That's much older than "Israel," so we'd have to say that it is the original flood story, and the Hebrew version (in Genesis) was developed from the Sumerian version.
You can read some details of the Sumerian version at this link: http://www.livius.org/fa-fn/flood/flood2.html
In part the author says:
Quote: "The Great Flood: mythological story about a great destruction that once befell the earth. There are several variants; the Biblical version is the most famous. The possibility that there is a historical event behind the story (a local flood in southern Babylonia in the twenty-eighth century BCE) can not be excluded."




Quote: "The story of the Great Flood has its origins in Sumer, the southern part of ancient Babylonia. Even though the younger Epic of Atrahasis and theEpic of Gilgameš, written in Babylonian, change many details, they continue to refer to Šuruppak as the city of the hero of the Flood story, even though the Sumerian name of the hero, Ziusudra, has been changed into Atrahasis or Ut-napištim. In the youngest Babylonian version, by Berossus, we see the original name return: testimony to the vitality of the Sumerian story, which has been called Eridu Genesis by modern scholars.




Quote: "The story survives on a cuneiform tablet from the seventeenth century BCE, of which only the lower third survives. However, this is sufficient to establish that the pattern described above was already present. However, there are small differences. The Eridu Genesis must have begun with the Creation of Man, but continues with the establishment of kingship and a list of cities. Then comes the list of antediluvian rulers, which confirms the pattern again, and the supreme god Enlil's decision to destroy mankind. The reason was recorded on a missing part of the text, but may have been the noise men created, as it is in the later, Babylonian texts."
-----------------------------------

More to come.

 +2 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 10 hours ago

 One such flood is said to have roared through the region with a wall of water 2,000 feet [600 m] high,
Bullshit
Actually there was one an ocean that transverse right through the middle of North America.

The WTS and their intellectually dishonest agenda to prove Noah's flood did clearly occur and its not just ancient mythological folklore is one of the reasons why religious institutions are dishonest and corrupt institutions.
For example they state that there are sea shells on the top of the highest peaks of the Himalayas, as viable evidence that there was a global flood to make that occur but dont they tell factual truth that there is physical evidence of strata depth in meters that that particular geographical landscape was once an ocean floor not just a thin top surface of shells as they assertively imply.

Take a bit of evidence and twist it to suit another imposing agenda is the game they play.




 
kepler
kepler 8 hours ago

"They exhibit a unique drainage pattern that appears to have an entrance in the northeast and an exit in the southwest. The Cordilleran Ice Sheet dammed up Glacial Lake Missoula at the Purcell Trench Lobe. A series of floods occurring over the period of 18,000 and 13,000 years ago swept over the landscape when the ice dam broke. The eroded channels also show an anastomosing, or braided, appearance....
-------
I was living in Washington state going to graduate school mixing engineering and astronomy together back in the late '70s - and coincidentally, that was when the eastern Washington scablands were offered up as an analog to the flow features seen on Mars. One of my courses was taught by a geologist active in the space exploration program and - he was probably aware of the history of the scabland controversy dating back to the 1920s. I was not.
But in this context, I can now see some other ramifications. Especially when about a year ago, I ended up digging up an article about J. Harlen Bretz and his theories about the scablands, written in the journal Science (22 December 1978).
One of the reasons I had pulled it up was on account of someone's argument about a universal flood occurring some time around 4000 years. My counter to that was that there were a lot of independent flood features around the world that appeared to older than that, independent of each others age - and they hadn't been wiped away. Since this one was attributed to a particular glacier lake and dam structure which burst around 10,000 years ago, I argued that a universal flood should have eroded this one away as well. Ditto for the Grand Canyon. But there they are.
Just for the record, that argument didn't cut much ice (sic) that time with the Noachian viewpoint. But then when I look at the original 1978 Science article, Noachian theories appeared to be in the background in the 1920s as well. The controversy then was whether the gradualist theory in geology was as gradual and non-catastrophic as many 19th century proponents had come to accept. Bretz was met with a good deal of skepticism even though he had tons of field data from Eastern Washington for a flood of enormous magnitude.
Here's the article conclusion:
The Spokane flood controversy is both a story of ironies and a marvelous exposition of the scientific method. One cannot but be amazed at the efforts to give a uniformitarian explanation for the Channeled Scabland and to uphold the [then prevalent] framework of geology as it had been established in the writings of Hutton, Lyell and Agassiz. The final irony may be that Bretz's critics did not appreciate the scientific implications of Agassiz's famous dictum, "Read nature, not books." Perhaps no geologist has lived and understood the spirit of those words than J. Harlen Bretz."
--------\
How much of the controversy in the 1920s and successive decades was based on a reaction in the geology community to anything that smacked of field work supportive of Biblical notions, is hard to determine from the article. But over the years catastrophism has been assimilated into both geology and evolutionary biology without the "framework" of the sciences collapsing. Impacting asteroids, volcanic explosions producing more devastation that nuclear bombs and melting glacial lakes have all had a role in both geology and biology over periods of tens of thousands of years, not to mention millions. But oddly enough, when you consider the connection with the martian surface, the flood model of Biblical literalists seems to apply more neatly out there, what with submerged hydrospheres and impacts causing gushers that sweep over frozen wastes...
-------
 

 
OnTheWayOut
OnTheWayOut 8 hours ago
With only 7 minutes allowed to mention the historical records backing up a global flood just a few thousand years ago, it just doesn't matter. It's still a case of "The Bible says so, and we must believe."
 +1 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 7 hours ago

Religions aren't honestly endeavored to seek the truth rather they are avowed to defer the truth whenever in formation is presented in opposition to ancient mythological writings and ruins their identifying assertion of spiritual divination.
Human ignorance is the fuel and supporting catalysis to which they derive their power from.

 +1 / -0
Clearview
Clearview 6 hours ago

I was gonna mention the catastrophic flood that resulted when the ice dam holding lake Missoula broke. (the last time) It's a subject that's pretty close to home considering I'm sitting in Missoula MT right now haha. In certain spots you can still see where waterlines once were on the sides of mountains, and there are other geological features that indicate this area was once underwater.
In the mid 2000s I flew commercial from Seattle to Spokane over the Washington desert/Badlands. It was obvious that a massive amount of water had rushed over that area at one point. I saw huge ripples probably a mile from peak to peak in the terrain like you would find on a sandy beach, and Delta type formations.
These features were pretty clearly defined and that (last) flood was supposed to have happened 10,000 - 14,000 years ago.
If the whole earth had been flooded a measley 4000 years ago, it would be blaringly apparent everywhere on the planet.
 

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Topic Summary
instead of scraping this talk they updated it.. so they still try and make this look like it happened, and that there is plenty of evidence.to do that they refer to the (w08 6/1 8) found at http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2008411the main evidence is that floods have happened in the past, including.... geologists studying the landscape of the northwestern united states believe that as many as 100 ancient catastrophic floods once washed over the area.
one such flood is said to have roared through the region with a wall of water 2,000 feet [600 m] high, traveling at 65 miles an hour [105 km/hr]—a flood of 500 cubic miles [2,000 cu km] of water, weighing more than two trillion tons.
similar findings have led other scientists to believe that a global flood is a distinct possibility.. i could not find such an event, except for remembering one of those "disaster" shows on discover about that.



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Would crime rate go up if we were 100% positive this is the only life???
by James Mixon 20 hours ago 13 Replies latest 10 hours ago   watchtower bible
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James Mixon
James Mixon 20 hours ago

NO resurrection, no 70 virgins, no 7 millions JW's living for thousand of years, no coming
back as dog or cat you are dead and done.
 
punkofnice
punkofnice 20 hours ago
Goodness knows. There are always lunatics about.
 
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 20 hours ago

No because there is in most civilizations man made laws to deter certain social behaviors.
The fear of man can be just as effective than the fear of god, perhaps even more so.

 
Island Man
Island Man 19 hours ago

No.
Scandinavian countries have some of the highest percentages of atheists, of all countries in the world. But their crime rate is one of the lowest.
Most humans are good people. Religious persons who sincerely believe that fear of God is the only thing holding people back from anarchy - those religious persons are inherently lawless and immoral persons who know that they themselves are only being good because of fear of God and they are projecting their own lawless predispositions unto the rest of society.

 +5 / -0
DesirousOfChange
DesirousOfChange 19 hours ago

But there would surely be more early deaths. Why not "Eat, Drink, and Be Merry!........for tomorrow........"
Doc

 
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 19 hours ago

Another false assertion Doc, in these modern times human health awareness is instilled into most mainstream societies. You don't require a belief in a god to stay and live healthy or be aware about the state of human health.
There's that dam education that the WTS's leaders warned their members about. 
The WTS would much more effective into controlling people if it destroyed Universities and Colleges where education is unregulated and ongoing.

 
OneEyedJoe
OneEyedJoe 19 hours ago

As the saying goes, you will always have good people doing good things and bad people doing bad things. For good people to do bad things, that takes religion.
While some people may think that their belief in god is what keeps them from being a bad person, they probably attribute the good feelings that our brains give us when they behave according to their conscience to god. It's not god, it's millions of years of evolution that's trained us to cooperate towards mutual benefit. Without god/heaven/hell/72 virgins/whatever, there would be (for the vast majority of the population) no motivation to fight the instinct to be good. And as Island Man correctly pointed out - there's a ton of evidence that secular societies are much more peaceful than heavily religious ones. Removing religion removes another thing that divides people and encourages everyone to realize that we're all the same and we're all in this together and might as well make the best of it.
 +1 / -0
NVR2L8
NVR2L8 19 hours ago
For some the promise of an afterlife is their reason for killing in the name of their god...
 +1 / -0
defender of truth
defender of truth 18 hours ago

For some the promise of an afterlife is their reason for killing in the name of their god...

Great point NVR2L8. While we are on the subject of lives being lost due to belief in an afterlife...
The promise of an afterlife in Paradise has been, I feel, the major factor in the decisions of many Jehovah's Witnesses who have died, or let their children die, because of refusing a blood transfusion.
Also, there seems to be no evidence to support the idea that there's any correllation between lower numbers of people with religious beliefs (which tends to include belief in an afterlife of some kind) and higher crime rates.
If there is any link, it would seem to be in the reverse:
http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-84878548/

 
James Mixon
James Mixon 14 hours ago

Thanks for all your comments and the article defender of truth. All should read
the article...
 

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Would crime rate go up if we were 100% positive this is the only life???
by James Mixon 20 hours ago 13 Replies latest 10 hours ago   watchtower bible
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Heaven
Heaven 13 hours ago
I say No, because there are many people already living their lives this way today. They aren't out committing crimes but actually living - working, shopping, preparing dinner, raising their children, enjoying hobbies, etc.

 
Hoffnung
Hoffnung 11 hours ago
High crime rates are always related to high poverty. If you reduce poverty, crime rates will drop too
 
WhatshallIcallmyself
WhatshallIcallmyself 10 hours ago

“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”
― Steven Weinberg
I think that quote just about sums up a logical answer to the OP. I suppose you could say that religion allows evil people to be good but the evidence suggests that despite being religious evil people are still evil...!


 
James Mixon
James Mixon 10 hours ago
What about mistreatment of homosexuals, would crime rate go down???
 

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Topic Summary
no resurrection, no 70 virgins, no 7 millions jw's living for thousand of years, no coming.
back as dog or cat you are dead and done..



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April 11, 2016 BOE Re: Literature Offers for September and October 2016
by wifibandit 13 hours ago 5 Replies latest 12 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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wifibandit
wifibandit 13 hours ago

April 11, 2016 TO ALL BODIES OF ELDERS Re: Literature Offers for September and October 2016



REMINDERS FOR THOSE ASSIGNED PUBLIC TALKS S-141-E 4/16


 
Watchtower-Free
Watchtower-Free 13 hours ago




 
freemindfade
freemindfade 13 hours ago

I like the part about not using coded cult speak, at least not without explain what it means to outsiders
 +1 / -0
DesirousOfChange
DesirousOfChange 12 hours ago

Image result for follow the money
Doc

 
humblepotato
humblepotato 12 hours ago

I liked how it had to remind us to say POSITIVE things about the organization and people in the congregation. I wonder if they've been having a problem with that! LOL



 +2 / -0
Magwitch
Magwitch 12 hours ago

"Do not speak in a derogatory way about non-witnesses."
I'm sorry, but do these people know any other way to speak about all of us wicked ones that are about to be obliterated by their God?
 +2 / -0

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I need food for thought..
by raven 12 hours ago 13 Replies latest 6 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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raven
raven 12 hours ago
Hi friends,
It has been 20 years that I've slaved for the WT and through out the past couple of years I could feel myself fighting an urge to accept that something was not right. I fought it off for so long only for it to resurface frequently throughout my years of pioneering, assembly/convention parts, & speaking with people about the "truth", slaving and giving to try to be a "spiritual person" but in reality I was not SPIRITUAL because spirituality (according to the org) is doing all of the things THEY want you to do. Which then will label you as spiritual... NO !!!
I feel myself becoming more and more frustrated and upset by this not because of my public reproof and the humiliation that has come with that. BUT because I feel like I know NOTHING, I want so badly to be spiritual and come to know God and Jesus..

Friends if you have anything that has helped you to research, read, study, and delve into regarding the JW doctrines, scriptures, anything that will help me to solidify that this isn't right? Am I beginning to "wake up" as some would say, am I starting to realize the truth about the truth? OR am I just being blinded by Satan's influence...? I'm so confused.. Being apart of something from BIRTH is so hard to escape from when it is the only "spiritual" teaching I know..
Feeling very depressed right now,
R

 +4 / -1
cofty
cofty 12 hours ago

Hi Raven
I think you have to begin by deciding how radical you are prepared to be in scrutinising your beliefs.
After I left I made the common mistake of unconsciously giving special protection to certain core ideas. It took me another nine years to realise I had just swapped one set of dogmas for another.
Please have a look at the OP in this thread...
Remember there is no hurry. My advice would be to focus on career, education, hobbies, building new friendships etc. It takes a long time to investigate the big questions objectively.
 +2 / -0
Landy
Landy 12 hours ago

Only you can decide what's right and wrong for you.
You will get a lot of views on here and they will be diametrically opposed to those you get in tne KH.
Only advice i can give is that if it doesn't 'feel' right now, tnen it's unlikely to 'feel' right in ten years time.
And by then you'll be ten years older.
 +2 / -0
cofty
cofty 11 hours ago

if you have anything that has helped you to research, read, study, and delve into regarding the JW doctrines, scriptures, anything that will help me to solidify that this isn't right?
I'm going to link to a couple of my own threads. Both of them demonstrate the organisation are wrong even if we assume the bible is inspired.
The Watchtower are Right About Blood, But ...
Why They Got it Wrong About Blood Using Only the NWT...
Jehovah's Witnesses View of Jesus Compared to the Early Church...

Please let us know if they are helpful.
You should also browse the vast resources at JWFacts.com
 +2 / -0
Littleleslie
Littleleslie 11 hours ago

Hi Raven:
I just wanted to let you know that I sent you a PM, so please check your inbox.
Littleleslie

 +1 / -0
OneEyedJoe
OneEyedJoe 11 hours ago

jwfacts.com was by far the most influential source of information for me. Everything is clearly laid out in black-and-white.
I can definitely relate to your concern that you're being blinded/manipulated by satan, It took me a year or so to convince myself that I was motivated by nothing more than desire to know the truth, and even then it took the overlapping generations WT study and another 3 months to finally push me over the edge to research. It can be a process. Examine your thoughts and your reason for doing things - are you just lazy? Do you just not want to go out in service? Or is it that you truly want to know what the bible says or what the truth is? Be honest with yourself and then trust yourself. Don't let years of indoctrination tell you that you're being mislead if you know within yourself that you're trying to find truth. Have faith in yourself, because you're the only one in this world that you can completely trust to be looking out for yourself.
Try to keep an open mind...when presented with a solution/explanation for something, see if you can think up alternate possibilities. See what you think feels more likely to be the truth - use occam's razor and sound logic to avoid fallacies (like the appeal to consequences - where else would we go?) and you'll get there.
 +2 / -0
oppostate
oppostate 11 hours ago
The book "In Search of Christian Freedom" by Raymond Franz was a great help for me in understanding how the WT doctrines prevent a person from growing spiritually and offer the view that one can find Christian freedom as promised in Scripture. It's really a heady book but very clearly and easy to follow. It is long, though, 700 pages or so. But definitely worth a read.
 +2 / -0
stephanie61092
stephanie61092 11 hours ago

Again, I am in your shoes. I'm on a search for spirituality. I actually bought this book and have been enjoying it:
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/p/the-soul-searchers-handbook-emma-renee-mildon/1121369182/2672869955029?st=PLA&sid=BNB_DRS_Marketplace+Shopping+greatbookprices_00000000&2sid=Google_&sourceId=PLGoP24047&k_clickid=3x24047
I was able to let go of the idea of JWs having "the truth" after reading Crisis of Conscience and Combatting Cult Mind Control. Reading these showed me that:
A) the WT is a very large, highly organized cult
B) the WT is a BUSINESS
C) the WT is filled with inconsistences
I've found a wealth of information on just this forum to further support those ideas too. It was really devastating because to this day, there was something about being a JW that I haven't personally seen or experienced with other groups. For example, you can always recognize JWs when they're out and about and when you tell them you're a witness too, you're treated like family. I've been on vacation before and randomly saw JWs preaching and introduced myself and ended up getting free lodging and meals from them being hospitable to me. However, being DFed now, seeing how people who were supposed to be my "spiritual family" not just shun me but gossip about me has shown me the true colors that I think I knew were there all along. Where is the "love that does not rejoice with unrighteousness"? JWs are a kind, loving people on the surface but when you get to the nitty gritty, not many are true friends. Whereas my "worldly" friends have been supporting me and helping me without any hesitation.
Anyway, maybe try to just focus on things you enjoy and let the others fall into place. Enjoy this man you're dating, maybe get more involved in work or school or some kind of extra curricular. Knowing now that Armageddon is not "just around the corner" has lifted such a weight off my shoulders. For once in my life, I'm able to wake up on Saturday morning and enjoy the beautiful nature outside of my apartment and not feel guilty that I wasn't able to go out and preach to people.
I wish you all the best on this new journey you're taking! xo
 +3 / -0
sparrowdown
sparrowdown 11 hours ago

A systematic approach is best, break it down into bitesize pieces otherwise you will become overwhelmed by it all. Remember the only way to "eat an elephant" is one bite at a time.
Pick a topic that interests you and type it into google.
Start with what you already know to be iffy, for instance you have already noticed how the org equates spirituality with blind obedience to them. You have rightly recognized this as false and that slaving for WT has nothing to do with, as you say, true "spirituality" or "getting to know" God or Jesus.
There are plenty of ex-jw websites and YTers. There is also plenty of info on cults and mind control techniques.
 +1 / -0
fulltimestudent
fulltimestudent 11 hours ago

Hello Raven - I wouldn't worry too much. Taking time out of the frenetic WT way of life to reflect on what you've been doing for 20 years, is a good thing. Even though I wasted my life - well, I cant change the past, but I've survived and I greatly enjoy myself intellectually.
Many here have reported that they felt depressed in this period of their lives, I know I did. I went walking a lot - that helped me. I was disfellowshipped, so that was an emotional burden after 40 years in that religion. Turned out to be my "get out of gaol" card. (grin)
But you asked for suggestions about books.
May I suggest these.
Geza Vermes (trans), The Complete Dead Sea Scrolls in English. Penguin, 2004.
There are a lot of editions, try to find the latest (2004? ) as they likely have more information. I suggest this book because its informative to examine the development of a parallel Jewish sect that likely influenced early Christianity.
Geza Vermes, Christian Beginnings: From Nazareth to Nicaea, AD 30-325. Allen Lane 2012.
Vermes is (IMO) an excellent Bible scholar, and in this book he traces what we know of the development of early Christianity.
And if they sound sort of heavy going after 20 years a WT Slave, (another grin) try this one.
Daniel Boyarin, The Jewish Gospels - The Story of the Jewish Christ, The New Press, 2013.
Some scholars think that Boyarin is one of the best Jewish Scholars. In this book Boyarin examines what contemporary (to Jesus) Jewish writers were thinking about the messiah.
A good library may have those books, if not try a university library.
 +1 / -0

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I need food for thought..
by raven 12 hours ago 13 Replies latest 6 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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Defianttruth
Defianttruth 11 hours ago

Lets look at a few things first.
Your religious organization claims to be the only and true earthly voice of God correct? They use the parable of the Faithful and Discrete Slave to establish their control over your faith. They say God has put us here to be in charge. They tell you to read some scriptures from Mathew and say, "See we are those people. You know we are because we told you so." Do me a favor right now and read Luke 12:41. Luke clearly describes this story as a parable. The Greek language is a beautiful and precise language and defiantly has the ability to describe "prophecy" and "parable". Why is this important to you. Your religious leaders purposefully lie to you and tell you this parable is prophecy. They have for over 100 years. It is a bold lie told often enough to make people believe it. When people question it they lie more and with more force. It was simply a story used with the purpose of teaching a moral lesson. If you remove that one caveat from their teachings they hold no power over you. Read that verse 10, 20,100 times. Do not let your emotions try to sway you into thinking it says something else. You have been programmed to believe the opposite. This may cause pain for you, but it is one of many things that knock their little house over. It was just a damn story not prophecy.
The blood policy is the most deceitful and hateful thing in the history of the world. I will give you a brief background on the policy so you can digest it while you read the rest. Literally our former religious organization was founded by anti technology simpletons. I hate to say it so directly, but its the truth. Here are a few things the Watchtower Organization has written against either in the past or present. Giving literature black people, their minds were to underdeveloped to process the materials contained in the magazines. Aluminum, Vaccines, blood, organ transplant, the size of the female brain, and many other weird things that were not true. These things were written out of ignorance.
Let's look at what the bible says about the Jews use of blood. leviticus 17 starting at verse 10-14. The Watchtower will stop there every time when supporting their beliefs, because they do not want you reading verse 15. I am going to go out on a limb and assume you don't regularly kill stuff to eat. Don't worry this is where my expertise comes in handy. I have a bit of land and use it to hunt on. I bleed my kills after the hunt for the purpose of making the meat taste better. If an animal dies and is not bleed within minutes, the blood will clot and there is no way to ever bleed that animal. Imagine wringing glue out of a sponge. If you do it quickly you can get most of the glue out. If you leave it a few minutes to cure you will never get the glue out. Why is the provision here for an animal that died on it's own? The reason is if a sheep farmer found an animal that died the night before and was not bled the law makers knew the meat would go to waste because it could not be bled. So to save waste they wrote a provision to allow the Israelite or non native to eat the meat anyway, but they had to wash their clothes and bathe and not go to the temple for one day. That's it!!!!!!! Take a bath and skip a day of temple. How much more is a human life worth to save than meat on the ground. Literally, the law allowed this rule to be broken as to not waste meat, but the Watchtower will allow it's members to waste their lives and the lives of their loved ones in a miss application of scripture. Go ahead and read it and check it. Every time they use a scripture to justify the blood ban they purposefully leave out verse 15. Now, ask yourself the question,"Why not change the rule?" You just read it. It is there in black and white. The reason is they are afraid of the backlash. They would rather allow more people to die than to correct their mistake and apologize. Doesn't sound very Faithful or Discrete.
Also, I hope you feel better. Go for a walk, read a book, see a doctor, call a friend, or anything healthy that makes you feel better. I've been there and fought the pain. I can tell you it gets better.
 +6 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 10 hours ago
Be careful, and don't jump from the frying pan into the fire....
 +1 / -0
rebel8
rebel8 6 hours ago

I felt like that too, OP.
I decided to resolve it by reading the Bible, front to back, in order, without the aid of publications. Just the bare truth of what the book says.
I got done and my faith was weaker than ever. Baby killing, rapes, kidnapping, approved slavery, torture, racism, misogyny, hatred and evil of all kinds--all approved by both Jesus and Jehovah.
So I thought I just lacked faith, and made myself read it again, front to back.
By the time I got into early Revelation, I realized it was as whack as whack gets. It is not a holy, harmonious book inspired by a loving being. When I shut the back cover for the last time, I was done.
The great thing about doing that is you know you gave it your best shot. You will never regret or feel as though somebody else influenced you.

 +3 / -0
berrygerry
berrygerry 6 hours ago

Raven and Stephanie:
James 1:27

 

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Topic Summary
hi friends,it has been 20 years that i've slaved for the wt and through out the past couple of years i could feel myself fighting an urge to accept that something was not right.
i fought it off for so long only for it to resurface frequently throughout my years of pioneering, assembly/convention parts, & speaking with people about the "truth", slaving and giving to try to be a "spiritual person" but in reality i was not spiritual because spirituality (according to the org) is doing all of the things they want you to do.
which then will label you as spiritual... no !!!



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Evolution is a Fact #34 - Hiccups and Tadpoles
by cofty 11 hours ago 9 Replies latest 2 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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cofty
cofty 11 hours ago

Hiccups are a weird phenomena. They are a combination of two involuntary actions - firstly a rapid inhalation of breath followed 35 milliseconds later by the glottis at the back of the throat suddenly closing off our airway.
Our normal breathing is controlled by a "central pattern generator" in a small region of the brain stem close to the boundary with the spinal cord. A signal is sent along the vagus and phrenic nerves resulting in a rhythmic contraction of muscles in chest, diaphragm and throat.
These nerves branch off right at the top of the spinal cord and follow a convoluted path through the chest cavity. Any spasm in these nerves result in the first part of a hiccup.
But what about the second part - the snapping shut of the glottis with the resulting comical squeak - where did that come from?
It turns out that the pattern generator responsible for hiccups in humans is virtually identical to one in tadpoles.

Fish breathe by extracting oxygen from water in their gills. Amphibians breathe by extracting oxygen from air in their lungs. Tadpoles, who metamorph into frogs, have gills and lungs and can do both. Our evolutionary ancestors who emerged from sea onto dry land also had a combination of lungs and gills.




When tadpoles breathe with their gills they inhale water into their mouths and then the pattern-generator in their brain stem rapidly closes the glottis to block the path to the lungs and forcing it out through the gills. This involuntary sequence still exists in the wiring of the most ancient part of our brains and when it is accidently triggered gives us hiccups.
In experiments, gill-breathing in tadpoles can be interrupted by increasing the level of CO2 or by stretching the wall of the chest. The tadpole then reverts to lung breathing. Hiccups can be interrupted in the very same way. Breathing into a paper bag increases the CO2 levels and holding a deep breath stretches the diaphragm. Your best chance is to stop the bout in the first ten hics otherwise it is likely to last an average of sixty.
Spare a thought for Iowa resident Charles Osborne who started hiccupping in 1922 and didn't stop until February 1990.




Evolution is a Fact 1 - 30 Index...
#31 Ten Questions For Creationists ...
The basic facts about reality covered so far pose an impossible challenge to creationism.
#32 Sexual Selection
How female mating preferences led to some of the most remarkable features of living things.
#33 A Tale About Tails
Human embryology reveals our primate history.
 +7 / -0
notsurewheretogo
notsurewheretogo 11 hours ago
Never knew that, deeply fascinating.
 +2 / -0
WhatshallIcallmyself
WhatshallIcallmyself 11 hours ago

Good Post. Thanks


 
Quarterback
Quarterback 7 hours ago

Hiccups????
Really???? That's it? That proves Evolution as a fact?
 +0 / -1
Quarterback
Quarterback 6 hours ago

By the look of your History of posting on this site, I would say that you have a campaign in promoting Evolution. I counted at least 15 posts that highlights your views on Evolution within the last two months. Weather that is right or wrong on a JW Discussion website is not for me to judge.
Oh well, you have found some support for this view on here.
 
breakfast of champions
breakfast of champions 5 hours ago

Wait a second. . . .
I thought the origin of hiccups was that Jehovah smote everyone working on the Tower of Babel with them. . ..
 
TheOldHippie
TheOldHippie 3 hours ago
What about me, who has never experienced hiccups - does that mean tadpoles are not my ancestors, that I have to look elsewhere for my great-great-great etc. father/mother?
 
scary21
scary21 2 hours ago

Yes, many of us appreciate your posts. All the information and the research you bring,
I love science !

 +1 / -0
cofty
cofty 2 hours ago

Hiccups???? Really???? That's it? That proves Evolution as a fact? - Quarterback
Of course not, that would be simplistic.
Evolution is proven to be a fact by a mountain of evidence from many fields of science including genetics, biogeography, comparative anatomy, paleontology and more. If you search google scholar for "human evolution" you will get links for over 4 million scientific papers.
I counted at least 15 posts that highlights your views on Evolution within the last two months. - Quarterback
The title of this thread is "Evolution is a Fact #34..." There are plenty more to come. Here is a link to the first 30...
There are links to #31-33 at the bottom of the OP. There are plenty more to come.
You might want to take a look at these ten basic questions for creationists...
Weather that is right or wrong on a JW Discussion website is not for me to judge. - Quarterback
Creationism is the fundamental doctrine of JWs. No Adam and Eve means no ransom. Of course it is appropriate to challenge JW teachings on a JW discussion forum.
Oh well, you have found some support for this view on here.
Evolution isn't a "view" it's a fact.
 +1 / -0
cofty
cofty 2 hours ago

What about me, who has never experienced hiccups - does that mean tadpoles are not my ancestors, that I have to look elsewhere for my great-great-great etc. father/mother? - Old Hippy
Of course not. Hiccups are one of many clues in our bodies to our ancestry. Not everybody has the same atavistic features.
Do you get goosebumps?
Do you have a Darwin's Point on your ears?
Can you wiggle your ears?
Do you have a nictitating membrane in your eyes?
Why did you have a tail when you were an embryo?


The strongest evidence for your ancestry is in the DNA in every cell in your body. See numbers 1-8...

 

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2016-03-12-E US BOE Re: Literature Offer for July through December 2016
by wifibandit 10 hours ago 5 Replies latest an hour ago   watchtower beliefs
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wifibandit
wifibandit 10 hours ago

TO ALL CONGREGATIONS IN THE UNITED STATES BRANCH TERRITORY Re: Literature Offer for July through December 2016
 
pepperheart
pepperheart 9 hours ago
What are they going to do with the 10 year old teaching books they have on the carts around me

 
User99
User99 7 hours ago

Up to December 2016? Thanks, WiFiBandit. That leads me to thinking, "Hey, maybe this system will last another year after all!"
 +1 / -2
Magnum
Magnum 7 hours ago

from the letter: Since the literature offer will not appear in the Our Christian Life and Ministry—Meeting Work-
book, please be mindful of the current offer for each month.
I guess I haven't been paying much attention. So is Our Kingdom Ministry a thing of the past? Did the meeting workbook replace it?
 
nelim
nelim 3 hours ago
Magnum, yes. But why is the literature offer not in that workbook?
 
freddo
freddo an hour ago

Anyone want to take a bet that the next "simpleton" err... I mean simplification will be that AWAKE! will only be available on line and that if anyone needs a hard copy (Sister faithful who won't change but is leaving her house to the Watchtower) the congregation should print it out?
 

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more from ARC
by zeb 2 hours ago 3 Replies latest 20 minutes ago   watchtower child-abuse
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zeb
zeb 2 hours ago
Royal Commission hosts criminal
 justice public roundtables
The Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse is holding a series of public roundtables in April to discuss a range of criminal justice issues with invited participants.
 The public roundtables follow March’s public hearing into criminal justice issues.
 Royal Commission Chief Executive Officer Philip Reed said the public roundtables will discuss adult sex offender treatment programs, Director of Public Prosecution’s (DPP) oversight and complaint mechanisms and reporting offences.
“These roundtables will invite comment and discussion from a range of participants, including police, public prosecutors, criminal justice policy officials, academic and practitioner experts and others,” Mr Reed said.
“Consultation through these public roundtables will help inform the Royal Commission’s criminal justice policy work,” Mr Reed said.
 The first public roundtable will discuss criminal offence for failing to report child sexual abuse, including the issue of blind reporting, where the alleged victim’s name or identifying details are not given to police.
 The second public roundtable will discuss adult sex offender treatment programs, including current programs in Australia and internationally, as well as discussing the effectiveness of these programs.
 The third public roundtable will look at DPP complaints and oversight mechanisms, including whether there should be avenues for victims to seek review of decisions not to prosecute and whether there should be external oversight of DPPs.
 Venue: Hearing Room 2, Level 17, Governor Macquarie Tower, 1 Farrer Place, Sydney.
 When: Wednesday 20 April (reporting offences) 10am-4pm
 Thursday 21 April (adult sex offender treatment programs) 10am-1pm
 Friday 29 April (DPP complaints and oversight mechanisms) 10am-4pm
 Time: Commencing 10am AEST
 The public roundtables will be streamed live via webcast on the Royal Commission’s website at www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au.
 +1 / -0
defender of truth
defender of truth an hour ago

Thank you for sharing this Zeb.
Also, thanks for what you have done in relation to the ARC in the past. Good to see you back posting again. :smile:
The first public roundtable will discuss criminal offence for failing to report child sexual abuse, including the issue of blind reporting, where the alleged victim’s name or identifying details are not given to police.

This part particularly should be watched closely by someone in the organization. Maybe Vincent Toole?
I'll just leave these quotes here as a reminder:

Spinks said he had been made aware of this in these hearings and the church would accept and comply with mandatory reporting, “regardless of our strongly held religious belief that individuals should have the right to decide what is done with that information”.
He said when there were mandatory reporting requirements with some sort of uniformity across the country “we will happily and willingly comply”.
McClellan pointed out that uniform laws were not yet in place and they would differ from state to state but they would impose “a criminal sanction on a person who knows [about an abuse crime] and does not report”.
Spinks said he understood that.

McClellan said the church needed to have a very good look maybe with the help of the church’s lawyers at what the law provides.
www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2015/aug/04/jehovahs-witness-church-says-it-will-comply-with-mandatory-reporting-of-child-abuse


Vincent Toole, head of the church's Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, told the commission he would seek independent legal advice about the church's obligations to report child sex abuse to the authorities.
Justice McClellan asked Mr Toole if he understood there was a general obligation for every citizen to report crimes to the authorities.

"Coming to this commission has been a wake-up call for me, I can assure you," Mr Toole said.

"Immediately [when] this particular hearing is over, we're going to instruct senior independent counsel and ask them to give us clear legal advice what the position is throughout Australia . . . any obligations that arise in relation to those laws we will certainly comply with."


http://m.smh.com.au/nsw/royal-commission-jehovahs-witnesses-to-review-approach-to-sex-abuse-allegations-20150805-gis2fh.html
 
smiddy
smiddy an hour ago

Thank you Zeb for this info .
I will look forward to watching the webcast.
Didn`t the W.T. challenge some 70 or so recommendations the ARC suggested ? How would that go down with the commission .?
And didn`t G.Jackson tell the commission that if Australian states had uniform laws regarding mandatory reporting of child sexual abuse it would make life easier for the organization .?
Thereby putting the onus on the Australian Govt .and absolving their own responsibility.
Otherwise known as passing the buck.
smiddy
 
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 20 minutes ago

Ironic that the society has used the reasoning that they will not breach confidentiality unless the law dictates that they should, while at the same time promoting a culture of internal gossip and slander amongst witnesses suspected of having doctrinal doubts!
 

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Jehovah’s Witnesses’ lock down deal for $700M Brooklyn plot
by defender of truth a day ago 4 Replies latest 14 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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defender of truth
defender of truth a day ago

www.nypost.com/2016/04/13/jehovahs-witnesses-lock-down-deal-for-700m-brooklyn-plot/


The Jehovah’s Witnesses appear to have achieved a handshake with their BFFs: Jared Kushner, Aby Rosen and LVWRK.
The pricing is roughly $700 million for the Witnesses’ 733,000-square-foot world headquarters at 25-30 Columbia Heights and a 1.1-million-square-foot as-of-right development site at 85 Jay St.

The same group purchased 1.2 million square feet in Dumbo Heights for $375 million in 2013 from the Witnesses and are now leasing to such companies as WeWork and Etsy.

Tech outfits have been circling the Brooklyn waterfront properties — and the large “Watchtower” on the sign could someday be swapped for a name like “Facebook.”

Bob Knakal of Cushman & Wakefield has been running the sale for the Witnesses, who are moving to Warwick, NY.


Multiple contracts were handed out for the properties and, so far, all are unsigned.
There has been interest globally, and local bidders have included L&L Holding, East End Capital, Equity One and Vornado Realty Trust. When reached, the parties declined comment.
 +2 / -0
elbib
elbib 21 hours ago

This reminds me of the real import of the word sin. The Greek word for “sin” is hamartia, an archery term for “missing the mark.” It carries the thought of an arrow missing the target and wandering.
There was a purchase-spree in the beginning, and now there is a sale-spree.


 
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 20 hours ago

.......... ..but they are still poor and need children's candy money !!!!
........... so poor that they had to recall special pioneers recently !!!!

............lying comes in many forms in the Watchtower Corporation. !!!!
The Scam continues

 +6 / -0
LevelThePlayingField
LevelThePlayingField 15 hours ago

I started a thread on this two months ago that said I would pay out through paypal to anyone who could guess the closest to the sale. Looks like we are getting close...
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5716324772741120/150-whoever-guesses-closest-when-watchtower-sells-brooklyn-properties?page=1&size=10
 +1 / -0
blondie
blondie 14 hours ago

Isn't Jared Kushner married to Trump's daughter Ivanka. She converted to Orthodox Judaism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jared_Kushner
 +1 / -0

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2016-4-4-BOE!--Scanning and Sending Medical Records through Emails!
by Atlantis a day ago 33 Replies latest 6 hours ago   watchtower bible
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Atlantis
Atlantis a day ago

I was always under the impression that only "licensed" persons had the authority to do this.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2016-4-4-BOE Scanning and Sending Medical Records through Emails!
.
This is the last paragraph of the main body of the BOE without the top and bottom, which revealed the congregation and information which could expose our source.
.
"Therefore, brothers, I appeal to you to make sure that a copy of the new ADD for every publisher is kept in alphabetical order, perhaps using an A-Z filing system to expedite it's location and so that it can be kept neat, clean and legible for scanning and emailing for up to 4 years, after which a new copy should be completed. It is also essential that when the secretary is away from his congregation, this file should be given to another elder to care for until his return."
.http://postimg.org/image/kwb4p5k0j/


.
.
Atlantis!
 
Newly Enlightened
Newly Enlightened a day ago
Thank you Atlantis!!!!
 
JeffT
JeffT a day ago

I was always under the impression that only "licensed" persons had the authority to do this
Is this in the United States? Medical records are protected under HIPPA, failure to comply with the law can lead to all sorts of trouble. Each and every person who has medical information in those files must have given them written consent to share that information with each and every person or organization they share it with. So each individual has to have signed a consent form to allow the secretary to handle the information. They must also have signed a consent form for whoever he's going to turn the files over to when needed. They also have to have signed a consent form for each and every individual or organization they intend to give the information to.
This could easily lead to massive lawsuits.
 +4 / -0
nonjwspouse
nonjwspouse a day ago
Yes this is SO against the HIPPA rules in the USA!

 +3 / -0
Hadriel
Hadriel a day ago
@Atlantis and @wifi are pretty much rockstars in my book.
 +4 / -1
Hadriel
Hadriel a day ago

BTW what they are doing sending this info electronically ( I can't speak to the consent part I'll leave that up to lawyer Jeff) is a very serious no no.
What I mean is that once the consent is done there's much more to go. In order to send the document via any electronic form you must ensure that it is done in an encrypted manner.
I know this for an absolute certainty. The below is usually what's needed.
http://www.austinmedclinic.com/hipaa-and-email.pdf

 +5 / -0
Atlantis
Atlantis a day ago

If a person is suffering from a condition of memory loss they have have no knowledge anymore that they even signed the ADD. The Elders would then go back to the last Directive signed which is really void because it is outdated. Therefore a person could be refused a transfusion when in reality they may have changed their mind.
.
Atlantis!
 
Atlantis
Atlantis a day ago

The letter mentions that if the secretary is gone that another elder should take his place to secure these Medical Records. But are any of the Elders qualified to encrypt emails according to the laws of their state? JWs everywhere could be having their Medical Records splattered all over the Internet.
Atlantis!
 
Island Man
Island Man a day ago

I don't know. The writing style in this paragraph does not seem characteristic of something that would come from Watchtower. I doubt Watchtower would write:

It is also essential that when the secretary is away from his congregation...
No, they would write something like:

If the secretary is away from the congregation or unable to carry out his duties...
The beginning of the paragraph says "I appeal to you" as if the letter is coming from an individual. Letters from Watchtower are always narrated with "we" or "the Governing Body" - never "I". But if it's a letter from a C.O. to a specific congregation he would not use the expression "away from his congregation" but speak of "the congregation" since a specific congregation is being spoken of and not multiple secretaries in multiple respective congregations.

I'm doubting the authenticity of this BOE paragraph. It doesn't read right. it lacks Watchcraft.

 +9 / -0
cofty
cofty a day ago

I share your concerns Island Man. Letters from the Branch or GB to bodies of elders don't use that kind of phraseology.
"I appeal to you" is not WT language.

 +1 / -0

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2016-4-4-BOE!--Scanning and Sending Medical Records through Emails!
by Atlantis a day ago 33 Replies latest 6 hours ago   watchtower bible
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cofty
cofty a day ago
I wonder if it is from a HLC member who has overstepped his authority.
 +1 / -0
User99
User99 a day ago
Another error: it's should be its. Official letters are proofread better than this.
 +1 / -0
Atlantis
Atlantis a day ago

Ok! Suit yourself! No more BOEs will be posted by us!
Atlantis!
 +0 / -2
cofty
cofty a day ago

Atlantis - Have you EVER known a letter from the branch to all bodies of elders to be written in the first person singular?
It is not unreasonable for anybody to question this apparent inconsistency.
Is it from the branch or from an individual on an HLC?
Why are you taking offense?
 +1 / -0
GrreatTeacher
GrreatTeacher a day ago

There is a misspelling, also:
"to expedite it's location"
That should be its without an apostrophe as a possessive pronoun.
Watchtower is usually good on its spelling and grammar.
Edit: User99 beat me to this. I should have read more carefully.



 
rebel8
rebel8 a day ago

HIPAA does not apply to them.

A Covered Entity is one of the following:
A Health Care Provider
A Health Plan
A Health Care Clearinghouse
 
DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG a day ago

I noticed that the letter sounded "off" as well. Maybe some CO went of the script?
DD
 
bafh
bafh a day ago
Don't they consult their lawyers before they decide on policy, or are their lawyers really that bad? OR do they think this is yet another law that does not apply to them?
 
talesin
talesin a day ago

Ok! Suit yourself! No more BOEs will be posted by us!
Atlantis!
Hey, if it's posted under Atlantis!' screen name, I figure you can take that to the bank.



I almost always read your BOE letters, and please don't stop. x
 +5 / -0
RubaDub
RubaDub a day ago

"I appeal to you" is not WT language.
As Cofty mentioned earlier, this is NOT WT language. These letters are never, at least I have seen, written as from one person but from some sort of group.
Rub a Dub
 +1 / -0

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Topic Summary
i was always under the impression that only "licensed" persons had the authority to do this.. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------.
2016-4-4-boe scanning and sending medical records through emails!.
.. this is the last paragraph of the main body of the boe without the top and bottom, which revealed the congregation and information which could expose our source.. .. "therefore, brothers, i appeal to you to make sure that a copy of the new add for every publisher is kept in alphabetical order, perhaps using an a-z filing system to expedite it's location and so that it can be kept neat, clean and legible for scanning and emailing for up to 4 years, after which a new copy should be completed.



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by Dunedain a day ago
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by pale.emperor 2 months ago



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2016-4-4-BOE!--Scanning and Sending Medical Records through Emails!
by Atlantis a day ago 33 Replies latest 6 hours ago   watchtower bible
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Hadriel
Hadriel a day ago

Could it be that this letter didn't originate with the Branch but perhaps some other source and it was directed at a specific body or group of bodies.
I agree with the fellas here does't follow the typical flow of a BOE.
That said c'mon @Atlantis don't get upset over it. Just want to make sure it's legit is all. Has little if anything to do with you personally.
 +4 / -0
JeffT
JeffT a day ago

I second the above. Your are a valued source of insider information.
Another possible source of odd language: maybe this was originally in another language and somebody ran it through google translate. I've seen some real howlers produced that way.
 +6 / -0
sir82
sir82 a day ago


No more BOEs will be posted by us!
What a spastic response!
For someone who has access to hundreds of BOE letters, you don't recognize that there has never ever been one written in first person singular?

 +4 / -0
konceptual99
konceptual99 a day ago

Don't take offence Atlantis. You and WifiBandit are the goto posters for consistent and accurate copies of WT documentation. It is because the style and even the typeface of this document is not anything like a standard letter to all BoEs from the Branch that questions are being asked.
It is unusual but there is no reason to discount the possibility that this is a letter from an HLC overseer or CO to a smaller group of congregations (e.g. circuit) and if you were able to post the header and footer then all would become clear. I understand you cannot do so to protect the source but a little more description of the context would help clarify things.
 +2 / -0
ttdtt
ttdtt a day ago

This is NOT an official letter from the WT.  Maybe its a letter from a C.O. I dont think so though.
 
tiki
tiki a day ago
Hippa regulations totally ignored??? I hope these jerks get caught up with. Medical info and options are a personal private choice not a mandated religious issue.
 
sir82
sir82 a day ago


Hippa regulations totally ignored???
I believe the letter is for the UK only.

 
Watchtower-Free
Watchtower-Free 20 hours ago
Thank you Atlantis

 +2 / -0
Newly Enlightened
Newly Enlightened 18 hours ago

All you doubters... who said it was from headquarters itself? Did you ever think this could be a directive sent from HQ to maybe HLC members to inform congregations or a Circuit Overseer??????
 +1 / -0
KiddingMe
KiddingMe 18 hours ago
Thanks!
 +1 / -0

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Topic Summary
i was always under the impression that only "licensed" persons had the authority to do this.. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------.
2016-4-4-boe scanning and sending medical records through emails!.
.. this is the last paragraph of the main body of the boe without the top and bottom, which revealed the congregation and information which could expose our source.. .. "therefore, brothers, i appeal to you to make sure that a copy of the new add for every publisher is kept in alphabetical order, perhaps using an a-z filing system to expedite it's location and so that it can be kept neat, clean and legible for scanning and emailing for up to 4 years, after which a new copy should be completed.



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2016-4-4-BOE!--Scanning and Sending Medical Records through Emails!
by Atlantis a day ago 33 Replies latest 6 hours ago   watchtower bible
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GrreatTeacher
GrreatTeacher 18 hours ago

Well, Newly Enlightened, I really wish someone who knows could tell us. Without giving the actual identities away, it would be helpful to know, for example, that it was from a branch member to a circuit overseer (or whatever the case may be).
As it stands, spelling and grammar issues make it look a little dodgy. When you have a completely anonymous letter divorced from place and context, those errors really stand out.
This doesn't mean anyone's doubting Atlantis. It could, however, mean that Atlantis has been passed some bad information.
 +2 / -0
GoneAwol
GoneAwol 16 hours ago

In the interest of clarity, both my wife and daughter are registered nurses in the Uk.
To access medical records is a lengthy drawn out process, mostly because everything at the moment is being slowly transferred from paper to electronic. (system 1 or EMIS)
The max charge to access paper from NHS is £50. Electronic, if yours have been fully transferred, is £10. You have to pay this to get access. It can be more if practise is GMC or private. They can charge what they want.
Who you then give it to is up to you. (Why would you?)
If however you have no interest in looking at your own records, but still give permission on a jw/hlc form for them to gain access, it is ONLY access to immediate care notes, not the whole med file. ( ie a car crash victim.) The hlc would also have to pay the above costs to have a written copy.
No health professional is allowed to distribute your med info electronically without a power of attorney in place.
The hlc would not be allowed access to all records unless they went through legal channels. They would have to have a VERY good reason to obtain all your records even with your consent, eg power of attorney.
So, its not as simple as just signing over an nhs number and they have everything about you on tap.
If there is something to this letter, it would be interesting to say in the least how it pans out.
Hope the info is useful.
 +2 / -0
cofty
cofty 15 hours ago

All you doubters... who said it was from headquarters itself? Did you ever think this could be a directive sent from HQ to maybe HLC members to inform congregations or a Circuit Overseer? - NE
Yes of course. I suggested the possibility that it might be from a HLC member.
It would be useful to have that confirmed would it not?
Caution is not something to apologise for.
 +1 / -0
rebel8
rebel8 6 hours ago

For some reason this forum has a lot of posts misinterpreting HIPAA, even after I posted a direct link proving the law does not apply to religions.
 

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Topic Summary
i was always under the impression that only "licensed" persons had the authority to do this.. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------.
2016-4-4-boe scanning and sending medical records through emails!.
.. this is the last paragraph of the main body of the boe without the top and bottom, which revealed the congregation and information which could expose our source.. .. "therefore, brothers, i appeal to you to make sure that a copy of the new add for every publisher is kept in alphabetical order, perhaps using an a-z filing system to expedite it's location and so that it can be kept neat, clean and legible for scanning and emailing for up to 4 years, after which a new copy should be completed.



Related Topics
A.proclaimer
1914, leap years, and sticky math situation
by A.proclaimer 4 months ago
Dunedain
Anybody remember those brothers that would harass, and hound the elders into making them, finally, appoint him as an elder himself?
by Dunedain a day ago
adjusted knowledge
Have you ever experience suprise by an Elder that actually showed compassion and reasoning in a judicial committee?
by adjusted knowledge 16 days ago
RULES & REGULATIONS
Elders who dislike other congregation elders
by RULES & REGULATIONS 4 months ago
pale.emperor
Trying To Leave - Im Going Crazy
by pale.emperor 2 months ago



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more from ARC
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 2 hours ago
royal commission hosts criminal justice public roundtablesthe royal commission into institutional responses to child sexual abuse is holding a series of public roundtables in april to discuss a range of criminal justice issues with invited participants.

the public roundtables follow march’s public hearing into criminal justice issues.

royal commission chief executive officer philip reed said the public roundtables will discuss adult sex offender treatment programs, director of public prosecution’s (dpp) oversight and complaint mechanisms and reporting offences.“these roundtables will invite comment and discussion from a range of participants, including police, public prosecutors, criminal justice policy officials, academic and practitioner experts and others,” mr reed said.“consultation through these public roundtables will help inform the royal commission’s criminal justice policy work,” mr reed said.

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Lurking JWs: Do people really need to know and use the word "Jehovah" or other language equivalents, to truly know God?
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 » Bible Research & Study Articles
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watchtower puts forth the argument that you can't really know god unless you know and use the appellation "jehovah" or its equivalent in other languages.

is this really true?

i say it's not true and i will demonstrate to you why.. god's name is not a mere label that we have to use to communicate with him so that he knows we're talking to him.

dbq407
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wifibandit
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to all congregations in the united states branch territory re: literature offer for july through december 2016.

Magnum
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cofty
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Evolution is a Fact #34 - Hiccups and Tadpoles
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hiccups are a weird phenomena.

they are a combination of two involuntary actions - firstly a rapid inhalation of breath followed 35 milliseconds later by the glottis at the back of the throat suddenly closing off our airway.. our normal breathing is controlled by a "central pattern generator" in a small region of the brain stem close to the boundary with the spinal cord.

a signal is sent along the vagus and phrenic nerves resulting in a rhythmic contraction of muscles in chest, diaphragm and throat.. these nerves branch off right at the top of the spinal cord and follow a convoluted path through the chest cavity.

scary21
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cofty
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raven
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I need food for thought..
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 12 hours ago
hi friends,it has been 20 years that i've slaved for the wt and through out the past couple of years i could feel myself fighting an urge to accept that something was not right.

i fought it off for so long only for it to resurface frequently throughout my years of pioneering, assembly/convention parts, & speaking with people about the "truth", slaving and giving to try to be a "spiritual person" but in reality i was not spiritual because spirituality (according to the org) is doing all of the things they want you to do.

which then will label you as spiritual... no !!!

stuckinarut2
rebel8
berrygerry
6 hours ago
wifibandit
5
April 11, 2016 BOE Re: Literature Offers for September and October 2016
by wifibandit in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 14 hours ago
april 11, 2016 to all bodies of elders re: literature offers for september and october 2016. .

reminders for those assigned public talks s-141-e 4/16.

DesirousOfChange
humblepotato
Magwitch
13 hours ago
James Mixon
13
Would crime rate go up if we were 100% positive this is the only life???
by James Mixon in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 20 hours ago
no resurrection, no 70 virgins, no 7 millions jw's living for thousand of years, no coming.

back as dog or cat you are dead and done..

Hoffnung
WhatshallIcallmyself
James Mixon
10 hours ago
ttdtt
18
Update - Talk # 6 THE FLOOD OF NOAH’S DAY AND YOU
by ttdtt in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 a day ago
instead of scraping this talk they updated it.. so they still try and make this look like it happened, and that there is plenty of evidence.to do that they refer to the (w08 6/1 8) found at http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2008411the main evidence is that floods have happened in the past, including.... geologists studying the landscape of the northwestern united states believe that as many as 100 ancient catastrophic floods once washed over the area.

one such flood is said to have roared through the region with a wall of water 2,000 feet [600 m] high, traveling at 65 miles an hour [105 km/hr]—a flood of 500 cubic miles [2,000 cu km] of water, weighing more than two trillion tons.

similar findings have led other scientists to believe that a global flood is a distinct possibility.. i could not find such an event, except for remembering one of those "disaster" shows on discover about that.

OnTheWayOut
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Clearview
7 hours ago
defender of truth
4
Jehovah’s Witnesses’ lock down deal for $700M Brooklyn plot
by defender of truth in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 a day ago
the jehovah’s witnesses appear to have achieved a handshake with their bffs: jared kushner, aby rosen and lvwrk.. the pricing is roughly $700 million for the witnesses’ 733,000-square-foot world headquarters at 25-30 columbia heights and a 1.1-million-square-foot as-of-right development site at 85 jay st.. the same group purchased 1.2 million square feet in dumbo heights for $375 million in 2013 from the witnesses and are now leasing to such companies as wework and etsy.. tech outfits have been circling the brooklyn waterfront properties — and the large “watchtower” on the sign could someday be swapped for a name like “facebook.”.

bob knakal of cushman & wakefield has been running the sale for the witnesses, who are moving to warwick, ny.. multiple contracts were handed out for the properties and, so far, all are unsigned.. there has been interest globally, and local bidders have included l&l holding, east end capital, equity one and vornado realty trust.

when reached, the parties declined comment.. .

Finkelstein
LevelThePlayingField
blondie
15 hours ago
Atlantis
33
2016-4-4-BOE!--Scanning and Sending Medical Records through Emails!
by Atlantis in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 a day ago
i was always under the impression that only "licensed" persons had the authority to do this.. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------.

2016-4-4-boe scanning and sending medical records through emails!.

.. this is the last paragraph of the main body of the boe without the top and bottom, which revealed the congregation and information which could expose our source.. .. "therefore, brothers, i appeal to you to make sure that a copy of the new add for every publisher is kept in alphabetical order, perhaps using an a-z filing system to expedite it's location and so that it can be kept neat, clean and legible for scanning and emailing for up to 4 years, after which a new copy should be completed.

GoneAwol
cofty
rebel8
6 hours ago
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Skin of My Teeth
by WhatshallIcallmyself a day ago 4 Replies latest a day ago   watchtower bible
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WhatshallIcallmyself
WhatshallIcallmyself a day ago

Hi
An evidence for divine origin that has often been used (at least to me) is where Job describes "...escap[ing] with the skin of my teeth". Science is quoted as having discovered that teeth are covered in skin and therefore how would Job have known something that modern science has only just discovered.
I was reminded of this at this weeks meeting when this verse was quoted but was surprised when a commenter said how it wasn't necessary to mention this in light of other "evidence" in the Bible. It stood out as odd as the usual MO is to tout any and all perceived inspirations in the Bible.
Having just looked up the official reasoning I see that this line of thought is now being encouraged: " It does not seem to be necessary to endeavor to explain Job’s statement in the light of discoveries that scientists have made in recent times with the aid of microscopes.". So what has changed? Or has this always been the official line?
Incidentally I always thought equating a biofilm to the epidermis was extremely tenuous...
 
 +2 / -0
Absolutesbeginners
Absolutesbeginners a day ago

You right .
The "Job' s skin's teeth" is THE THING
It is the "OFFICIAL LINE "
Life is wonderfull of surprises isnt!!
It IS an evidence for DIVINE ORIGIN !

 
Finkelstein
Finkelstein a day ago

Job describes "...escap[ing] with the skin of my teeth".
Gee how did Job know that if he was an adult when he supposedly spoke that, if that is the assertion ?

 
Pubsinger
Pubsinger a day ago
Job was obviously quite eloquent and had heard of hyperbole. Which is more than can be said for the feckless idiots posing as scholars in the WT writing department.
 
OneEyedJoe
OneEyedJoe a day ago

Discovery of "skin" on your teeth! Bible proven scientifically accurate!
So what if there's not literal skin on your teeth? You're just looking to find fault! It was meant figuratively!
And so it goes with every bible verse. The lucky guesses are prophetic, the failures are figurative or hyperbole.
 +1 / -0

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Christians Know Who God Is
by Loi_241 3 days ago 28 Replies latest 13 hours ago   watchtower bible
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Loi_241
Loi_241 3 days ago






Many of us Christians have a good question for you to ask, “Who is God?” There are more than six scriptures to share with you. You know the Bible itself a true message for all the people on earth. The Bible explains ‘in the beginning God created everything: heaven, earth, animals, people and everything.’ Thus, you notice God created humans, Adam and Eve. He also created sex to produce the baby to the next generations. So the next generations mean you, the humans. God created you. If you are an Atheist or worshipper of false god, then how can you be existed in this planet? Something good to ponder. Let’s start with the main scripture Psalm 83:18, interesting to hear those who believe a true God’s name is JEHOVAH. And Jesus is not Jehovah. Well, let research on Jehovah resource. Many Bible translations have God’s name Jehovah. For example, NWT contains Jehovah’s name 7,000 times. Why does NWT preferGod’s name is Jehovah instead of the LORD? Because of not admitting to believe Jesus is God. However, NWT does have Jehovah. The name “Jesus” means “Jehovah Is Salvation”. (See Insight on the Scriptures II on page 10 for proof.) Jehovah is salvation and Jesus is salvation. Still, Jesus is Jehovah. Truly, yea. That’s a true meaning! Read Isaiah 12:2 and see what true meaning is. You notice the LORD JEHOVAH? That is Jesus. Yea, truly.


Based on what you need to know who God is in the Bible, not just Psalm 100:3, Isaiah 42:8, Romans 10:13, Hebrews 3:4 and Isaiah 40:26.
 +1 / -7
cofty
cofty 3 days ago

If you are an Atheist or worshipper of false god, then how can you be existed in this planet?
Humans evolved from non-human ancestors over millions of years.
Perhaps you would like to have a go at answering these ten basic questions for creationists...
 +6 / -1
Crazyguy
Crazyguy 3 days ago

There are plenty of cases where the son of God becomes the new main God. The christian god is jesus son of God who is exalted to become God. Later the trinity also an ancient idea is adopted by the Christians. Everything christian was stolen from older religions mostly Egyptian.
 +2 / -0
megaboy
megaboy 3 days ago

Translation issue, original hebrew uses Alahym, that is applied to powers of authority. Sometimes it refrences the three powers that worked as one to create the heavens and earth.
There was a being that came down, sometimes he was called a pillar of smoke or cloud etc, but he had a bodily apperance. Helped Moses and the children of Jacob out when the Egyptains chased them, they called him Yah (Was not a short form of YHWH). And was called the Word which would speak what he was told to speak to man. A different being from YHWH.
So when he was going to be stoned for saying "I AM". He was telling the truth, he was saying that he was YAH, but even most of the hebrews didn't know that YAH and YHWH were not the same person.
I'm not sure who taught the trinity, but the Hebrew believers in the Mashiyak didn't teach it from the evidence I've read of first century hymns and discourses. Some gentiles such as Justin Martyr understood them to be two seperate entities.
I know there was a schism between the gentile and hebrew church, so as the hebrew founders left the scene, the gentile dominated gatherings (bodies) most likely started doing their own thing and adding their own twists. Then the council of Nicea just tweaked all of that confusion into a "canon doctrine" for the state.
 
Coded Logic
Coded Logic 2 days ago

You know the Bible itself a true message for all the people on earth.
Then why does it make demonstrably false claims? For example, we know for a fact that:
◦Humanity did not begin 6,000 years ago.
◦A worldwide flood did not happen 4,300 years ago.
◦Nebuchadnezzar never destroyed or even entered the city of Tyre.
◦Land animals existed BEFORE flying creatures.
◦etc.
.

The Bible get's all these facts completely wrong. Why should we think it has a "true" message?
 +4 / -0
Bonsai
Bonsai 2 days ago
God created everything? So that includes viruses, cells that are designed to go cancerous, parasites, earthquakes, tsunamis, tornadoes, supertyphoons and hurricanes, baseball sized hail that kill people and animals, mosquitos, fleas and ticks that spread disease. Yeah, nice job God! Such a god of love!

 +5 / -0
megaboy
megaboy 2 days ago

For those confused by the Nebuchadnezzer Tyre prophecy, keep in mind that sometimes its talking about the NATIONALITY, not the location. So in this case the nationality of Tyre would be families of Edomites which did see an invansion from him.
I'm of the suspicion that the scholars propagating this have purposely (wrongly) assumed that its location and not race based because it would bring to light the lie that the decendants of Edom dissapeared some place or already had its full judgement completed. But if that proves wrong it would mean there is a nationality based judgement still pending and it would open a whole other can of worms for them.
 +0 / -1
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 2 days ago


Christians Know Who God Is
..................,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,..,......Not This One..
..............,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,..,....He Looks Confused..

..........http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/ksHcE3T9Zxo5YddNqsBALsV37zhyIRJrJfDkNHoPLkvAsTFi7XD0-tzpxWt-VUTTJKwo8cYXVN1QJSSQPIKubbur=s740
 +8 / -1
Coded Logic
Coded Logic 2 days ago

keep in mind that sometimes its talking about the NATIONALITY, not the location.
I know of no records in antiquity where Tyre is referenced as a nationality. Rather, the people of Tyre's nationality was Phoenician. I have the feeling this is something that has been pulled out of thin air by Christian apologists (A.K.A. the most dishonest people on the planet).
But none the less we know the Bible passage IS referencing the city of Tyre because:
◦A.) It specifically differentiates between the city of Tyre and its "dependent towns" (Ezekiel 26:6,8)
◦B.) It specifically references Tyre as being on an Island (Ezekiel 26:15,18). If it were referencing a "nationality" this would not be the case as only one city (Tyre) was on an Island. Not all of Phoenicia.
◦C.) It calls Tyre the "city of the Sea" (Ezekiel 26:17).
.
Also, even if we grant your premise that it was referencing a "nationality", it STILL gets it wrong. Because the people who lived in Tyre weren't destroyed by King Nebuchadnezzar and their inhabitants are still there to this day.
So in this case the nationality of Tyre would be families of Edomites which did see an invansion from him.
This is even worse. It's not only not right - it's not even wrong. Just because someone CAN come up with an explanation doesn't meant that actually IS the explanation. You have to have something you can point to that allows us to reach a conclusion. You don't just get to say "well it could have been this so we'll go with that."
It's blatantly clear that when the Bible references the city of Tyre - it's referencing the CITY of Tyre. And it specifically says that Nebuchadnezzar would breach the city walls and that he would tear down the buildings and that the city would be so thoroughly destroyed that it would never be rebuilt or found again.
Instead of following the evidence where it leads (the Bible got this wrong) they instead try to move the goal post by saying "oh the Bible wasn't really talking about the city of Tyre."
Why can't Christians just be honest?
 +3 / -0
James Mixon
James Mixon 2 days ago

I was so disappointed when my mom told me there is no fat jolly old man SC.
I was 7 years old, one year later I understood deers can't fly but a snake can talk.
 +7 / -0

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Christians Know Who God Is
by Loi_241 3 days ago 28 Replies latest 13 hours ago   watchtower bible
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Loi_241
Loi_241 2 days ago

Coded Logic, do you have proof of you asking why think the Bible has a "true" message? It's time for you to grab a coffee and do your homework on researching the ancient times and who is the author of Holy Bible.
 
Joe Grundy
Joe Grundy 2 days ago

This is useful here:





 
Loi_241
Loi_241 2 days ago

Bonsai, well, if you read and examine the beginning of God created in the Bible book of Genesis.
 
Loi_241
Loi_241 2 days ago

Joe Grundy, thank you for sharing the video. I will watch it when I have time. Have a good night. :smile:
 
James Mixon
James Mixon 2 days ago

There are 40 authors over a period of 1500 years, form all walks of life fishermen,soldiers,
Physicians, preachers and kings. They served under different government and lived within
contrasting cultures and systems of philosophy.
The question, are all the books in perfect harmony in the message they convey????
 +2 / -0
Coded Logic
Coded Logic 2 days ago

do you have proof of you asking why think the Bible has a "true" message?
Yes. It is located on the first page of this thread.
It's time for you to grab a coffee and do your homework on researching the ancient times and who is the author of Holy Bible.
Which "Holy Bible"? The Roman Catholic Bible? Greek Orthodox? Slavonic? Protestant?
All these "Holy Bibles" have a different number of books. And most of those books have different authors. You seem not to know this. I find it odd that you're telling me that I need to do research on the Bible when you haven't bothered to do any for yourself.
Also, it hasn't gone unnoticed that you didn't answer my question:  If the Bible is a true message than why does it make demonstrably false claims?
 +2 / -0
Bonsai
Bonsai 2 days ago

Bonsai, well, if you read and examine the beginning of God created in the Bible book of Genesis.
Huh? Not sure what to make of what you wrote, but I think you are implying that god was created in the book of Genesis (written by goat herders who were trying to make a rudimentary guess as to how the universe came about). I have underestimated you. You are right. God and the story of god was created by men. I'm glad you understand that.
Which, when you understand that, you begin to understand why the universe is so dangerous and violent. There is no god of love governing it. The laws of the universe have no morality or sentiment and would be just as happy to wipe us out just as 99% of every living organizism has gone extinct.
Luckily, the potential for the human race is unmeasurable. We have created laws and morals that are ever being refined over time. We are growing in technology and will soon be able to colonize other planets and extend our lifespans.

 +2 / -0
punkofnice
punkofnice 2 days ago

Loi - What religion are you? What religion are you saying we should be? Do you go to a church, if so which denomination and why?
 +1 / -0
Heaven
Heaven a day ago
None of the authors of the Bible ever met Jesus.

 +2 / -0
baker
baker a day ago




There are so many religions that demand alligence to them only and the JWS isn't the only one. And several of them have been invented in the past 200 years or so. Why did Jehovah wait over 1800 years to finally show up invisibly in a rich printers mind in the Northeast USA and say all the others are false? Extraordinary claims requires extraordinary evidence.
 

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Topic Summary
many of us christians have a good question for you to ask, “who is god?” there are more than six scriptures to share with you.
you know the bible itself a true message for all the people on earth.
the bible explains ‘in the beginning god created everything: heaven, earth, animals, people and everything.’ thus, you notice god created humans, adam and eve.



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Christians Know Who God Is
by Loi_241 3 days ago 28 Replies latest 13 hours ago   watchtower bible
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Loi_241
Loi_241 a day ago

Coded Logic, I choose the original Bible copy, not translation. I respect your disagreement with me. Thank you for your time. Peace to you. :smile:
 
Loi_241
Loi_241 a day ago

Bonsai, I think you are implying that god was created in the book of Genesis (written by goat herders who were trying to make a rudimentary guess as to how the universe came about). I have underestimated you. You are right. God and the story of god was created by men. I'm glad you understand that.
I have underestimated you. That would be a good thing that you don't judge me. :smile: Yes Bonsai, I do follow the Bible. As in our conversation, Genesis 1:26 says, "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." No men ever created god in the universe. What will you react to this scripture? This is a fact.
 
Crazyguy
Crazyguy a day ago
Jesus is an combination of many God in the area at the time . He has atributes of baal, osiris, Marduk, horus, Salem, Ra etc. I believe he was invented and made to be like all the gods to apeal to the masses. Also if one reads the bible you'll find that Jesus teaching controdict many of the says of his so called Hebrew father Yah. Some say this is do to one of the early christian leader's Marcion who did not like the Hebrew God. His death by sacrifice is not a new idea nor was his resurrection. The idea of a trinity is also not new to Christianity nor teachings that Jesus is just like his father. Study the book of the dead and you'll find huge similarities between chritanity and this ancient Egyptian religion. Baptism , circumcision, spirit, resurrection to heaven or paradise on earth, having ones heart judge, all from ancient Egypt.
 +1 / -0
Loi_241
Loi_241 a day ago

punkofnice, What religion are you? What religion are you saying we should be? Do you go to a church, if so which denomination and why?



I'm a Christian, and I'm following the Christ's teachings. And it is up to you decide which religion you want to be. It's a free will between you and God. We cannot force anyone to pick a religion for anyone. As we do not practice sect. We respect anyone's rights.


 +1 / -0
shepherdless
shepherdless a day ago

From the quote of Genesis 1:26, it looks like Loi is quoting from the King James Version of the bible. That is the version that mentions unicorns.
Loi, do you believe in unicorns?
 
Heaven
Heaven 13 hours ago
The original 'bible' doesn't exist. All we have now are translations.

 +0 / -1
Island Man
Island Man 13 hours ago
The OP makes a number of very unconvincing and unsubstantiated assertions. Very typical of religious folk.

 
OnTheWayOut
OnTheWayOut 13 hours ago

The Bible explains............God created everything.............. If you are an Atheist or worshipper of false god, then how can you be existed in this planet?



I will let the "false god" slight go, but I really shouldn't.
Anyway, there are many creation stories. And there are even non-creation stories. Yours is just one among many.
I like the one from the philosophy of Jainism. I probably won't ever support Jain because the swastika is so prominent in their symbols, and despite it's pre-Nazi existence, I really don't want people thinking I am a Nazi.
Anyway, Jainism does not support belief in a creator deity. According to Jain doctrine, the universe and its constituents—soul, matter, space, time, and principles of motion—have always existed. All the constituents and actions are governed by universal natural laws. It is not possible to create matter out of nothing and hence the sum total of matter in the universe remains the same (similar to law of conservation of mass). Jain text claims that the universe consists of Jiva (life force or souls) and Ajiva (lifeless objects). Similarly, the soul of each living being is unique and uncreated and has existed since beginningless time.
I could go on and on within your thread (and I may do so later) about the creation myths that are almost as strange, sometimes stranger than the myth from the Bible. But they all have this in common- they either say that something came from nothing or that something always existed without being created- all of them.
Many have outgrown Santa Claus and the tooth fairy and many have outgrown creation myth.
 
redvip2000
redvip2000 13 hours ago

You know the Bible itself a true message for all the people on earth.
Well what a terrible job your god has done, where 2 thirds of the world's population doesn't even recognize the bible as being his message. I'm not talking about believing in it, but not even believe it's god's word.
Certainly you must find this troubling. Even an average human writer when writing a book might not convince other humans of the message in the book, but convincing others he wrote it, is an easy task even for the lowest of all writers. Yet your god, creator of the entire universe, able to do anything he wants, is not able to convince the majority of us pesky humans that he wrote a book. Pathetic isn't it?

 +0 / -1

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Topic Summary
many of us christians have a good question for you to ask, “who is god?” there are more than six scriptures to share with you.
you know the bible itself a true message for all the people on earth.
the bible explains ‘in the beginning god created everything: heaven, earth, animals, people and everything.’ thus, you notice god created humans, adam and eve.



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How credible are NWT's critiques?: Allin and John 8:58. (2)
by Wonderment 2 months ago
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by Wonderment 2 months ago
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by learnaway 23 days ago
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by new boy 15 days ago
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Identity Theft
by Jerryh 3 months ago



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GSBN News
by sherrie11 4 days ago 8 Replies latest 4 days ago   watchtower bible
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sherrie11
sherrie11 4 days ago

Oh my they are televising the Gilead school graduates(coff)!!!!
http://tv.jw.org/#en/video/VODProgramsEvents/pub-jwbgg_201603_2_VIDEOChad and Krista Lea Heggs testimonial! Sorry guys I haven't been able to edit just their segment!If any one can edit it I would be very grateful!
They are making the Borg look like a current affairs type program.


 
Wild_Thing
Wild_Thing 4 days ago

The longer I am away, the stranger they seem when I watch this kind of stuff!
Here is the run down of basically all of the "reenactments":
Missionary: Hello, I have this very interesting tract about "How do you view the bible?" that I would like you to read.
Stranger: Okay. I will.
Speaker from Stage: Wasn't that a fine example of our Missionaries dedicating their lives to Jehovah?
Audience: CLAP! CLAP! CLAP! CLAP! CLAP!
 +3 / -0
sherrie11
sherrie11 4 days ago

Its so plastic Its a Caleb and Sophie world!
Wtf . instead of watching Fox they now can watch GSBN!
This cult blows my mind! They even try to imitate comedy channels like Stewart and Colbert! With their propaganda!
 
sherrie11
sherrie11 4 days ago
Please Jesus help them! (Tongue very much in cheek)
 
Listener
Listener 4 days ago
They have a Sister as one of the two Broadcasting Network Presenters, speaking on spiritual matters. She addresses the audience directly without a head covering.
This may be the start of seeing a lot more from Sisters in a teaching and preaching role from the platform.
 +1 / -0
sherrie11
sherrie11 4 days ago
Yes they are trying look equal. But you and i know that's an illusion! Theocratic warfare allows Lie's and more lies
 +2 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 4 days ago

Are they for real?
I don't recognise this religion anymore....
The broadcasts look just like the stuff the Mormons have on their website!
 
Barrold Bonds
Barrold Bonds 4 days ago
Listener: Do you have a link for that video
 
sherrie11
sherrie11 4 days ago
http://tv.jw.org/#en/video/VODProgramsEvents/pub-jwbgg_201603_2_VIDEO
 

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Generation Nonsense in today's WT
by Slidin Fast 4 days ago 23 Replies latest 3 days ago   watchtower bible
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Slidin Fast
Slidin Fast 4 days ago
Abraham was part of the 9th generation as a descendent of Shem. Yet, Their lives overlapped by 150 years. Yep, they were of the same generation! Err, err. Um.
 +6 / -0
Darkknight757
Darkknight757 4 days ago
Wow how long can they make a generation lol. What's a typical generation? 30 some years? Now they found a loop hole for 150? They are really getting desperate.
 +6 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 4 days ago
Well, seeing as they believe that people lived for hundreds of years, then they will believe anything!
 +6 / -0
xjwsrock
xjwsrock 4 days ago

Yeah, go back to the Old Testament to scriptures written in another language and another time to see what Jesus meant by the common everyday word 'generation'.
Makes perfect sense.
 +2 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot 4 days ago

@ stuckinarut2...
Know what's really funny?
I can actually imagine them using that as an explanation for why "This Old System" is sill around in, say, 200 years... :smirk:
 +3 / -0
TheOldHippie
TheOldHippie 4 days ago
"They are really getting desperate." Not. This was not in any context with a "generation" discussion, but a reference to how Abram possibly could have heard about Jehova, since he was family and coexisted with Shem for 150 years.

 +0 / -10
Darkknight757
Darkknight757 4 days ago

Right Hippie but this will give them president to associate this with "the generation".
 
eyeuse2badub
eyeuse2badub 4 days ago

This all sounds 'degenerating' to me!
And I believe that the whole concept of "overlapping" originated when the majority of the gb looked down and noticed the "new (light)" relationship between at their belly and their belt.
just saying!
eyeuse2badub
 +1 / -0
Village Idiot
Village Idiot 4 days ago


Darknight757:

Wow how long can they make a generation lol. What's a typical generation? 30 some years? Now they found a loop hole for 150? They are really getting desperate.
Can't they pick Adam and some other multi-centenarian in the Bible and get 1500 years?





 +1 / -0
Darkknight757
Darkknight757 4 days ago
Think about this: Adam was supposed to be born about 6000 years ago and Jesus is "the last Adam" so that's at least a 6000 year generation.😊
 +4 / -0

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Generation Nonsense in today's WT
by Slidin Fast 4 days ago 23 Replies latest 3 days ago   watchtower bible
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Slidin Fast
Slidin Fast 4 days ago

This was not in any context with a "generation" discussion,
My point was, not that this has any relevance to the "generation" in Matt 24 but that it makes the whole overlapping generation theory absolutely senseless.
The congregation sits there nodding at absolutely any BS they are served up. Yes, according to this WT Shem and Abraham are the same generation. It just demonstrates how meaningless and tortured the WT generation theory is. Don't try and apply it to any sort of timescale, your head will explode.
 +4 / -0
Pete Zahut
Pete Zahut 4 days ago

When it comes to overlapping generations, I wonder how do they explain Psalms 90:10 
"The days of our years are seventy years; and if by reason of strength they are eighty years, yet is their strength labor and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away."
I can see how a person could consider someone born a few years before or after they were, as being part of their own generation. A 50 year old may think of a 55 year old as part of his own generation but these great overlaps of years where you and your grandfather are part of the same generation, don't make sense no matter how many times the Watchtower tries to explain it.
A lot of JW's go silent and their eyes glaze over when this topic comes up .

 +10 / -0
sowhatnow
sowhatnow 4 days ago

i googled how long is a generation just out of curiosity, because i can recall that it was once accepted that a generation was 20 years so here we have this short article...... [and im just as confused,lol] but, Jesus wasn't giving a future prophesy,he was speaking about then, THIS generation. current. the one he himself was part of or was immediately following his. but im going to say the current one he was part of .

http://isogg.org/wiki/How_long_is_a_generation%3F_Science_provides_an_answer
but really, what is the purpose of a bunch of stupid articles about generations and the different 'classes' of chosen ones, and times and end of the world ect ect got to do with being a good christian and helping your fellow man.
they are desperate for something to write about. lol

 +4 / -0
Xanthippe
Xanthippe 4 days ago

My point was, not that this has any relevance to the "generation" in Matt 24 but that it makes the whole overlapping generation theory absolutely senseless. - Slidin Fast
Thanks for this. Don't you just want to phone your relatives and say, how long are you going to take this sh*t for? I despair of my sisters and brother. Particularly my brother, he's awake I'm sure. Is being an elder really worth it bro?

 +5 / -0
westiebilly11
westiebilly11 4 days ago
Every one's life overlaps , so generation theory pointless. It's just a theory/doctrine designed to pacify valid queries re prophecy etc. Seems that nonsense overlaps too...

 
prologos
prologos 4 days ago

Dk 775T: "think about this: Adam was supposed to be born about 6000 years ago and Jesus is "the last Adam" so that's at least a 6000 year generation, no that is taking it too far, the two Adams did not overlap. but:
if Shem lived to 630! and Abraham to 175!, and they overlapped by 150, that makes these two grouped into one -- generation one of 655 years long, - deduct 5 years for the age of memories of Abraham,= 650 ; plus 1914= 2564 CE. better (for wt) than 2075 derived from 2 overlapping Freddy Franzes.
 +1 / -0
Cold Steel
Cold Steel 4 days ago

According to some Hebrew traditions, Shem and Melchizedek were the same person. After the flood, Shem vanishes from the record. We also have no genealogy for Melchizedek, King of Salem, and Melchizedek was more of a title than a name. Clearly, Melchizedek had priesthood authority and he collected tithes and offerings from Abraham. It's unusual that one would just vanish and that the other would pop up in the same generation.
When it comes to overlapping generations, I wonder how do they explain Psalms 90:10
"The days of our years are seventy years; and if by reason of strength they are eighty years, yet is their strength labor and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away."
The generations of man were reduced over time. Ages dropped dramatically after the flood and no reasons are given. Some have suggested that the introduction of ozone into the air after the flood had something to do with it, but it's merely speculation.
 
edmond dantes
edmond dantes 4 days ago

If the Governing Body do not go back to the drawing board and come up with new light on this Generation doctrinal nonsense they will continue to be seen as deceivers and twisters of the English language and if they truly believe it idiots.Every sane person knows that when a man and a woman become mummy and daddy a new generation has arrived.
If a generation overlaps and overlaps onto the next generation obviously by definition its a different genealogical category in fact you could call every generation by a category number or letter right down through the ages, its simple, category A is totally not the same as B .
How do the Witnesses explain the expression The Generation Gap if there is no difference.
 +1 / -0
Nameless
Nameless 4 days ago
I'm in my mid 50's, so I think they're waiting for us to die off and gradually make the switch. Their focus is on younger ones now. I think they may believe they can switch with no problem in the next few years. They keep throwing this "historic" crap to keep everyone off guard. Outside a few young people, it's been the older ones dropping out. They always prep WT study articles with small hints. It's like a worldwide focus group on what they can dish out.
 +1 / -0
Jordandemm
Jordandemm 4 days ago
@nameless i know right just a few weeks ago a couple from a congregation just disassoiated right out of the blue. Yh i agree with you about the whole historic thing looking at the past few articles showing how past biblical figures can help us serve God, i mean the govering body better. Cant wait till im fully out.
 +1 / -0

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Topic Summary
abraham was part of the 9th generation as a descendent of shem.
yet, their lives overlapped by 150 years.
yep, they were of the same generation!



Related Topics
pandorasbox1914
Overlapping Generation
by pandorasbox1914 2 months ago
Terry
PAINTING THEMSELVES INTO A CORNER or WHY was the "GENERATION" teaching started in the 1st place?
by Terry 18 days ago
A.proclaimer
1914, leap years, and sticky math situation
by A.proclaimer 4 months ago
kepler
Length of a Generation? Ask a governing agency or member of governing board
by kepler 2 days ago
cofty
Evolution is a Fact #18 - Fish Fingers
by cofty 2 months ago



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Generation Nonsense in today's WT
by Slidin Fast 4 days ago 23 Replies latest 3 days ago   watchtower bible
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nonjwspouse
nonjwspouse 4 days ago

Slidinfast
This whole thread makes my head explode! Trying to make sense out of nonsense, to explain the illogical is so absurd and useless... my brain screams.

 
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 3 days ago

Sometimes the WTS heads create assuming bullshit to cover over their past contrived bullshit.
But you'll love what the FDSL or commercialized fraud Christians provide.
Nevertheless the JWS are indoctrinated to nod their head in agreement as its a stifling sin not to.
The original orchestraters of the religoius publishing house devised and circumvented the power around themselves by their own endeavors, the men in their place are there to sustain that power.
 +1 / -0
SpiritualGal08
SpiritualGal08 3 days ago

I must admit that my first inkling that something was not right in JW World was the generational change in 1995. It absolutely did not have the ring of truth to it. Ever since then, when they have attempted to put the chaos released from Pandora's Box back in, it's been a helluva mess!
Isnt it more reasonable that Jesus was talking about the upcoming Roman attack 30 years or so in the future of his discussion with his apostles? This makes sense. This is understandable. This is simple. What JW's have created is a convoluted mess when they opened Pandora's Box trying to go back and make the past fit the scenario they created so as to look as if they had truth. Well, what did Jesus say? "You will know the truth and the truth will set you free." And I have been set free....
The truth is the that the JW organization has been playing damage control ever since the days of Russell...time is running out for their crumbling foundation upon which their organization was built.
 +2 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 3 days ago

YES!
Not everything in the bible has a modern fulfilment!.
The "generation" Jesus was talking to was HIS CONTEMPRARIES in the first century...nothing more, nothing less...
 +3 / -0

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Topic Summary
abraham was part of the 9th generation as a descendent of shem.
yet, their lives overlapped by 150 years.
yep, they were of the same generation!



Related Topics
pandorasbox1914
Overlapping Generation
by pandorasbox1914 2 months ago
Terry
PAINTING THEMSELVES INTO A CORNER or WHY was the "GENERATION" teaching started in the 1st place?
by Terry 18 days ago
A.proclaimer
1914, leap years, and sticky math situation
by A.proclaimer 4 months ago
kepler
Length of a Generation? Ask a governing agency or member of governing board
by kepler 2 days ago
cofty
Evolution is a Fact #18 - Fish Fingers
by cofty 2 months ago



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S-77 Form--Britain!
by Atlantis 2 days ago 9 Replies latest 17 hours ago   watchtower bible
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Atlantis
Atlantis 2 days ago

Say wifi, if we don't have this one in the Archives would you throw it in there. Some kind folks sent it over and we may need it some day. Many thanks!
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S-77 Form Britain (A lot of boxes to check on this one!)
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https://we.tl/yVq35vDQs3
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Atlantis!
 +1 / -0
Watchtower-Free
Watchtower-Free 2 days ago
Form sent via http://avoidjw.org/

 +1 / -0
Atlantis
Atlantis 2 days ago

Watchtower-Free:
Watchtower-Free is probably getting thirsty!
Yes, very good! The good folks over at avoidjw must have sent that one and much appreciated.
.
Atlantis!
 +2 / -0
LevelThePlayingField
LevelThePlayingField a day ago
thanks Atlantis, this is very revealing!
 +1 / -0
stuckinarut2
stuckinarut2 a day ago

How interesting.
There doesn't appear to be any Scriptures on that form. Why bring the bible in on it?
The only references were on the lines of : "were SOCIETY guidelines followed?"
 +2 / -0
avoidjw
avoidjw a day ago
How this form works is that in the top FOR OFFICE USE ONLY section, the judicial committee would reference scriptures used for dfing or disassociating.
 
alanv
alanv a day ago
Interesting that it seems to say a person can disassociate themselves orally. In other words just tell the elders you no longer wish to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses
 
Diogenesister
Diogenesister a day ago

Atlantis said
" SAY..wifi..."
Ahhhhh! Adorable! Makes me think of those westerns I would love to watch with my grandpa!!! Love that accent!!
 
Watchtower-Free
Watchtower-Free 18 hours ago
thanks for all you do Atlantis

 +1 / -0
Anders Andersen
Anders Andersen 17 hours ago

For those who have the experience: are DFed DAed people informed of this form with their name and (very) sensitive information is sent to and archived at the branch?
Are they informed about their personal data being archived for at least 5 years at their local congregation?
If not, that is likely a major breach of privacy laws. At least I'm quite sure it is in my country...
 

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Bethelities, GB field service?
by James Mixon 3 days ago 6 Replies latest 10 hours ago   watchtower bible
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James Mixon
James Mixon 3 days ago
The time they actually spend knocking on doors and cart work???
 
Barrold Bonds
Barrold Bonds 3 days ago

Back when brothers worked saturdays, they were expected to go out on their saturday off and sundays. I imagine it's still the same. Gotta go out saturday mornings and i'm guessing there is a lot of pressure for sunday too.
GB, from what I personally observed, did the same. The infirm ones would get driven around to go on return visits.
 
James Mixon
James Mixon 3 days ago

Barrold Bonds: Sorry I was asking you Bethlities, how much time do the GB spend in service.
I know you guys get your time in, but the GB would you say 10 hrs. a month or more?
 
Barrold Bonds
Barrold Bonds 3 days ago

I would say probably 10. The GB now are all relatively in decent health so they'd be expected to do the 10 hour grind.
I'm not there now so I'm just going by what I saw.
 
Da.Furious
Da.Furious 3 days ago
i used to be one and the expectation , to be in good standing, is minimum 10 hours. Not achieving 10hrs means service office will have a chat with you on why you can not achieve this.

 
matt2414
matt2414 12 hours ago
I remember Bethel elders used to count time giving public talks, talks on assemblies, informal witnessing and maybe a Bible study with an inactive person to get their 8-10 hours a month. It wasn't very substantial for "minister" in "full-time" service.
 
fulano
fulano 10 hours ago
All legal. Every elder counts his 45 min pt. I used to see Pierce in the Bossart library having two bible studies on saturday afternoons. He was a nice easy guy, liked to chat about everything.
 

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