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Evolution is a Fact #36 - Mass Extinctions
by cofty 2 hours ago 0 Replies latest 2 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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cofty
cofty 2 hours ago

250 million years ago a plume of molten basalt gushed up from the earth's core. It erupted in an area now known as the Siberian Traps - back then it was part of the supercontinent Pangaea.
A curtain of lava a mile high and hundreds of miles long lit up the sky. The eruption known as a "flood basalt" went on for more than 900,000 years. The total amount of lava ejected over that period would have been enough to cover the entire globe to a depth of 20 feet.



Dust and ash filled the sky blocking out the sun and leading to a volcanic winter. Then as the sky cleared the earth was wrapped by vast quantities of carbon dioxide given off by the burning lava, creating a greenhouse effect. The earth's temperature rose by 5 degrees celsius.
Over the first 40,000 years many land species became extinct.
Next the oceans began to warm up leading to the extinctions of 96% of marine life over less than 10,000 years.
Then came the third phase when methane began to be released from below the ocean adding to the greenhouse effect and lifting the global temperature by a further 5 degrees over the next 40,000 years. What was left of the planet turned to arid desert killing of most the remaining flora and fauna.
Every living thing on earth today is descended from the 4% that survived.

Known as the Permian extinction or sometimes as "The Great Dying" it was one of five mass extinctions in life's turbulent history.
From the perspective of evolution these events are simply part of the story of life's battle for survival. For creationists they pose an impossible dilemma.

Evolution is a Fact 1 - 30 Index...
#31 Ten Questions For Creationists ...
The basic facts about reality covered so far pose an impossible challenge to creationism.
#32 Sexual Selection
How female mating preferences led to some of the most remarkable features of living things.
#33 A Tale About Tails
Human embryology reveals our primate history.
#34 Hiccups and Tadpoles
How hiccups are a relic of our amphibian ancestors.
#35 Nature Red in Tooth and Claw
Nature's ability to inflict pain and suffering in the battle for survival.
 +2 / -0

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Watchtower myth: God’s will discerned through committees, not individual leaders
by Londo111 4 hours ago 4 Replies latest 3 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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Londo111
Londo111 4 hours ago

Be it the Governing Body, or a judicial committee of the local elder body, when a two-thirds majority vote is reached, it is viewed as God’s will, as the action of holy spirit, of Jesus nudging the stars in his right hand. [And if I’m not mistaken, the minority is encouraged to change their vote, so that is “unanimous”.]
Anthony Morris alluded to this when he unsuccessfully tried to explain why the Governing Body is not dogmatic. “The decisions that are made by the Faithful Slave today, are made collectively. So no one man's making these decisions. These decisions, if you want to call them a decree, are made collectively . . . This is a theocracy, ruled by God. Not a collection of manmade decisions. This is governed from heaven.”
A relative who was an elder felt sort of the same way on the elder body, explaining it as a miraculous shift that would occur in reaching a consensus. God’s will mystically becomes known through a small body of men.
This mythos greases the wheels of the Watchtower chariot.
I wonder about the psychological dynamics of committee leadership from whence this feeling of awe is derived.
 +1 / -0
OneEyedJoe
OneEyedJoe 4 hours ago

I wonder about the psychological dynamics of committee leadership from whence this feeling of awe is derived.

My guess is that it's similar to an ouija board in which no individual feels in any way responsible for the outcome, but all have a part in making it happen.
I never really understood how making decision by consensus was somehow proof of divine backing. Decisions are made by consensus in governments all the time, but the WT would always say that those are just men making the decisions. What's the difference?
 +3 / -0
Londo111
Londo111 3 hours ago

I guess this is related to what Ray Franz said in Crisis of Conscience:
Based on my own experience among them I believe that they are, in effect, the captives of a concept. The concept or mental image they have of “the organization” seems almost to take on a personality of its own, so that the concept itself controls them, moves them or restrains them, by molding their thinking, their attitudes, their judgments . . .
The insertion of the existing concept of “the organization,” however, radically alters their thinking and viewpoint, becomes, in fact, the dominant, controlling force . . .
I believe that when the men on the Governing Body think about and refer to “the organization” they likewise think of the concept rather than the reality. They think of “the organization” as something far bigger and grander than themselves, thinking of it in its numerical aspect, in the extent of its scope of control, as something international, worldwide. They do not realize—apparently—that this aspect relates more to the organization’s domain than to what it itself actually is. When, however, they urge “loyalty to the organization” they must know, they certainly should know, that they are not talking about that domain—about the thousands of congregations and their members that the organization directs. They are talking about loyalty to the source of the direction, the source of the teachings, the source of the authority.
Whether the Governing Body members acknowledge it or whether they prefer not to think about it, the fact remains that in these crucial respects they, and they alone, are “the organization.” Whatever other authority exists—that of the Branch Committees, that of the District or Circuit Overseers, that of Congregational Elder Bodies—that authority is totally dependent on that small body of men, subject to adjustment, change or removal at their decision, unilaterally, with no questions asked . . .
I believe that for most of these Governing Body members, like the rest of Jehovah’s Witnesses, “the organization” takes on a symbolic nature, something rather undefined, abstract, a concept rather than a concrete entity. Rather than the “mother church” it is the “mother organization.”
Perhaps because of such an illusory view of “the organization” a man can be a member of such a Body that has virtually unrestricted power and authority, and yet not feel a keen sense of personal responsibility for what the Body does, for whatever hurt or whatever misleading information and consequent misdirection results. “It was the organization that did it, not us,” seems to be the thinking. And, believing that “the organization” is God’s chosen instrument, the responsibility is passed on to God. It was His will—even if later the particular decision or the particular authoritative teaching is found wrong and changed. People may have been disfellowshiped or otherwise hurt by the wrong decisions. But the individual member of the Governing Body feels absolved of personal responsibility.

 +2 / -0
cha ching
cha ching 3 hours ago

Good one, One EyedJoe!
This is the best description yet: "Like an ouija board, not one person feels responsible"
Ironic!! Thx!
 
Londo111
Londo111 3 hours ago
I agree. It's no different than a ouija board.
 

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Letter to the GB...Would they see it??
by James Mixon 4 hours ago 5 Replies latest 3 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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James Mixon
James Mixon 4 hours ago

If one sent a nice note to the GB, "you guys are a bunch of low life scumbags", would they cover
it in their meeting and respond to my letter?
 +1 / -0
cofty
cofty 4 hours ago
no
 
James Mixon
James Mixon 4 hours ago

What if I mailed a letter that was special delivery, must be signed by one of the GB members
because there's a check inside it, $1.00......
 +1 / -0
sparky1
sparky1 4 hours ago

If you really wanted to do this, you would need to have some kind of 'apostate' connection inside Bethel. If my memory serves me correctly, you could write a letter to each individual member of the Governing Body (tm) and then have your 'apostate' connection send these letters through the internal Bethel mail system. They would each get their respective letters during the morning 'mail delivery'.
 +2 / -0
James Mixon
James Mixon 4 hours ago

We need to get to the head of the snake. Sparky1, that's a good idea.
I bet you if I sent them a check for $10.000 they would cash it even after telling
them I'am DF and a apostate. LOL
 
ToesUp
ToesUp 3 hours ago
They have the "staff" read all the letters. The GB are the glorious ones, too good to open their mail. Jah's right hand men!
 

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NEW PEW Research data on Jehovah's Witnesses just released
by Balaamsass2 9 hours ago 17 Replies latest an hour ago   watchtower beliefs
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Balaamsass2
Balaamsass2 9 hours ago

I was expecting people who "identified" as JWs to follow Watchtower beliefs more closely than these pollsters report.



http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/04/26/a-closer-look-at-jehovahs-witnesses-living-in-the-u-s/

 +4 / -0
ttdtt
ttdtt 9 hours ago

Thanks! Love this kinda stuff.
 +1 / -0
sir82
sir82 8 hours ago

Based on this, 50% of JWs are apostates (don't believe in heaven) while 25% should be considered disassociated (for "non-neutral activity", leaning toward Republican or Democrat political views).

This makes me think that either the questions were too vague, or the JWS who responded didn't understand the questions, or people who self-identified as JWs really aren't. In any case, it makes me doubt the reliability of the poll.

 +2 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot 8 hours ago

@ sir82...
Or 75% of the rank-and-file have found an anonymous outlet to reveal their true feelings.
 +3 / -0
Coded Logic
Coded Logic 8 hours ago

Like any religion, what "is" and "isn't" a member is a bit ambiguous. The Watchtower says there are around 7 million publishers. A fair portion of these are unbaptised. And of those there is some percentage that doesn't really have a grasp on JW theology.
There are also people who are not publishers or who are inactive but still identify as JWs because they occasionally go to meetings or are studying. Their answers too will influence the stats.
Lastly, there are publishers, baptised ones, ministerial servants, elders, pioneers, etc who are trapped in the religion but no longer believe everything the WT teaches.
We don't just get to cherry pick the JWs who are toeing the party line and say "only their responses matter". We have to look at the whole picture of what it means to be a JW in various states and transitions.
 +2 / -0
Mephis
Mephis 7 hours ago

Pew's sample size for JWs is small so unexpected results popping up become more likely. The way the questions are phrased seem also to cause current JWs problems. Whether it's asking one whether they're an evangelical christian or not, or, in this case, whether they believe in heaven or hell. Actually, no, it's not the way the questions are phrased which causes problems but the WT filter which gets applied to any answer given.
 +1 / -0
OutsiderLookingIn
OutsiderLookingIn 6 hours ago

Agree 100%, Coded Logic. There is a spectrum of JW belief. You can also add weak inactive ones (it's the truth even though I don't live it at all). Pretty much anyone in the Watchtower web of influence (somehow exposed to the teachings but unaware of TTATT) might identify as JW for survey purposes.
Also, this isn't a new survey. It's a re-release of the 2014 results in light of the death of Prince, the most famous and (superficially) unlikely JW. Will it generate interest in JWs, i.e. new converts? I doubt it.
 +1 / -0
OneEyedJoe
OneEyedJoe 6 hours ago

These numbers don't add up...maybe someone can help me with this -
it says 0.8% of the US population is JW. That puts JWs at roughly 2.5 million members. Even if you assume that children are represented in disproportionately low numbers compared to the overall population (I'm assuming the survey was done of adults 18 and over, but I see no indication of this for sure) you still have 1.6 million adult JWs. If weekly meeting attendance is at 85%, you'd have to have 2.1 million JWs attending meetings weekly and 1.4 million adult JWs attending meetings weekly. Those numbers seem way too high considering the cult's official numbers are at 1.18 million publishers and I can't remember the last time I heard of a congregation having anything close to 100% attendance, let alone average attendance of 115-178% which is what would be necessary for these numbers to make sense.
My guess is that this survey isn't very accurate due to the small sample size. Either that or they got a good number of inactive JWs who were lying due to guilt over their poor meeting attendance.
 +1 / -0
FayeDunaway
FayeDunaway 6 hours ago

What's interesting to me is the number of witnesses willing to answer the 'ideological spectrum' question but not the 'political views' question. It's very witness if them...obey (pay minute attention to) the letter of the law, not the overall purpose of the law. Maybe they didn't realize having an 'ideological spectrum' viewpoint is NOT staying 'neutral'. I like that they were willing to say it, I would have done it too as a witness...I just think it's funny.
Regarding the 'heaven' question, there was probably some confusion, did the question mean you think you're going to heaven when you die, or that heaven exists?
 +3 / -0
steve2
steve2 6 hours ago
Yes Faye, some of those questions do not take into account unusual or nonstandard views. When JWs answered they did not believe in heaven it was more likely an indication that they believed their hope was living on this earth forever rather than a disbelief in heaven.
 +1 / -0

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NEW PEW Research data on Jehovah's Witnesses just released
by Balaamsass2 9 hours ago 17 Replies latest an hour ago   watchtower beliefs
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steve2
steve2 6 hours ago

My guess is that this survey isn't very accurate due to the small sample size. Either that or they got a good number of inactive JWs who were lying due to guilt over their poor meeting attendance.
Don't be too hasty in your "guess" OneEyedJoe.
It is not at all unusual for surveys of JWs and census results to show higher numbers of people who identify as JWs than who attend meetings and/or witness. These include individuals who may well be "inactive" from the organization's view but the important point is these individuals still consider themselves to be Witnesses or intend to go back. This phenomenon occurs in other religious groups as well.
Even disfellowshipped individuals may still identify as being JWs - of course with the intention somewhere in their head of going back some day.
Census data also includes children of JWs - even babies - these inflate the number of actual "active" JWs (by the organization's view) - so we end up with way more JWs than who attend meetings and/or witness to others.
 
3rdgen
3rdgen 6 hours ago
Faye and Steve beat me to it.
 +1 / -0
OneEyedJoe
OneEyedJoe 5 hours ago
Steve, I totally get the numbers in a census will show more JWs than the cult's official numbers do. My point was that the survey seems to imply that there are more active members than the cult's numbers do, and by a wide margin. Either their's some inaccuracy in the sampling or people were lying when they said they regularly attend meetings. I don't see another option.
 +1 / -0
steve2
steve2 4 hours ago

From my reading, Pew research does not measure the actual number of respondents who are actively preaching but the number who go to (church, temple or religious) meetings on a weekly basis. In other words it is a broad measure that does not count the number of times respondents go in a week but whether they go.
Thus, it is a "generous" measure of weekly attendance.
On that basis, it is not necessarily inaccurate. I guess it would be tempting for adherents of any religious group to say "Yes" to whether they go to church each week even if they don't - and to a certain extent, researchers are aware of the "social desirability" of answering "Yes" even when the actual number is, "No".
That said, the Sunday meeting (Public Talk and Watchtower Study) is generally far better attended than the mid-week meeting - although there is wide variation in attendance. Some posters here estimate higher mid-week meetings, others. lower.
 
DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG 3 hours ago

My money in on the dubs not understanding the questions. Seriously, have you attempted to have a discussion with a Dub that required reasoning on their part?
The last time I tried to explain what Adventism was and how it influenced CTR, and how Geoffrey Jackson gave video testimony in Australia, the Dub I was speaking to became enraged and tried to push me down. True story.
The die-hard believers are not too bright or mentally/emotionally stable.
DD
 +1 / -0
Londo111
Londo111 3 hours ago

Do JWs believe in hell? Yes, they believe hell is mankind's common grave. It is likely what the 7% were thinking.
 +2 / -0
Balaamsass2
Balaamsass2 an hour ago

I found the racal demographic interesting. About 13% of the US is black. Within JWs that number is double.
The hispanic number is large, and I would expect that is were the US growth is. In the San Francisco Bay Area most of the new congregations were Spanish. A large number of english speaking hispanics attend Spanish cong., personal friends explained to me it was much more fun and family like. Based on spanish Congregation parties and gatherings I attended in times past, I would have to agree.
 +2 / -0
Balaamsass2
Balaamsass2 an hour ago

Here is the link to what the interviewers asked: http://www.pewforum.org/files/2015/11/201.11.03_RLS_II_questionnaire.pdf
 

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Topic Summary
i was expecting people who "identified" as jws to follow watchtower beliefs more closely than these pollsters report.. .
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/04/26/a-closer-look-at-jehovahs-witnesses-living-in-the-u-s/.



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April is child abuse prevention month
by StarTrekAngel 10 hours ago 8 Replies latest 4 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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StarTrekAngel
StarTrekAngel 10 hours ago

At least here in Texas. In the building where I work, there is a big poster board and people are putting signatures down on it. I was thinking about printing something similar to the billboard that was up in Benton, TX and adding to the board.
Any other ideas or thoughts?
 +1 / -0
DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG 10 hours ago

Do it. You will feel awesome, because you are fighting against evil. This is war. Put up a sheet with links from JWfacts - Royal Comission.
GO FOR IT.
DD
 +2 / -0
My Name is of No Consequence
My Name is of No Consequence 9 hours ago
Umm...shouldn't every month be child abuse prevention month?
 
StarTrekAngel
StarTrekAngel 8 hours ago

You are probably right. I am just trying to help by taking advantage of a poster board that has attracted quite a bit of attention in the building.



On top of that, there is a parking garage not far from here (About 2 blocks) where a lot of people go from here and there is a preaching cart there every day.
 +1 / -0
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 7 hours ago


April is child abuse prevention month..
....................................................................................Judges,Prosecutors,Questions..

......................Well That Sucks..............................They Frown On Lying.......I Hate Court..

Image result for JW.org broadcasting geoffrey jackson..Image result for JW.org broadcasting geoffrey jackson
 +2 / -0
StarTrekAngel
StarTrekAngel 4 hours ago

Well I did it. I did not want it to be flashy because the posterboard is fairly simple. Making it too flashy, I think, would defeat the purpose. I printed a small black and white paper. About 3 in by 11 in that read "Is there a child molester in your Kingdom Hall? Is a child molester knocking at your door? Would the elders tell you? Find your answers at JWFACTS.com. Wrote it both in English and Spanish.
less than 4 hours later, my papers have been removed.
 +2 / -0
rebelfighter
rebelfighter  4 hours ago

StarTrekAngel,
I would making lots of copies and replacing that sign every time it disappears.
 +1 / -0
cha ching
cha ching 4 hours ago
Maybe, if you did not include a specific religion, but said something like, "Join the Australian Royal Commision's fight, visit: "ARC..." then just list the website.
 +1 / -0
StarTrekAngel
StarTrekAngel 4 hours ago
Yeah I know... I just thought it was interesting that it did not last that long. The only problem is if it is another JW removing them, I can not risk getting caught at the moment. Not fully out yet.
 +2 / -0

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Fed up with Prince? try: Un petit blog de France
by Half banana 14 hours ago 5 Replies latest 5 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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Half banana
Half banana 14 hours ago

I have just spent ten days working in France, I arrived late on Friday night and the first thing Saturday morning two visitors ominously strolled into my garden.

I was offered the flimsy Awake which I opened and was immediately struck with a very false image. The article gave the feel that the magazine was scientifically credible. It targeted young people; those who would recognise that an unduly cheerful and very young scientist peering down a microscope was what JW religion is all about. What deception! I struggled for half an hour in my less than perfect French and the couple wisely suggested they could send round someone who speaks English.
Early the next morning two enthusiastic JW men about fifty years old arrived who indeed spoke good English. I was not going to let their visit pass without some hard hitting exchanges. Now my old farmhouse is built from granite and I have got used to cutting this material to make alterations. To get a purchase on a granite surface you need to send shock waves into the stone with heavy hammer blows with the chisel at a steep angle to get started, then you progressively lower the angle and get the granite to flake off. With this as a metaphor, I politely but firmly approached the conversation.
I told them from the start that I was not a believer in the Bible because it was unscientific (being annoyed at the misleading impression the Awake had made) but that I would be prepared to listen to their argument. I asked, “Why should I believe the Bible?” The reply was feeble, just the old chestnut that the Bible recognised the sphere of the Earth. Hardly a reason to believe in the Bible and not impressive since the NWT only refers to the “circle of the Earth”, it could have been flat, and that Eratosthenes back in the Classical world already showed how to measure fairly accurately the circumference of the globe on which we live.
“So you believe in Adam and Eve?” “Yes”. “And Noah’s flood? “ “Yes.” These were the big hammer blows because I knew they could not support the ideas with evidence and I explained that I have for many years worked on archaeological sites and I am familiar with the relevant stratigraphy of the period in question.
“A global flood would leave evidence... and there - is - none - at - all.” I said.
So bamboozled and corrupted is the JW mindset that they imagine that centuries of careful recording and measuring by multitudes of scientists can be dismissed with an off-hand comment as long as it comes from the Bible. Earth sciences, archaeology and the continuous run of the written narrative of history do not allow for a global flood in the Biblical timescale. “The flood is a myth”, I said. “A myth is a story with a backbone which keeps an idea in shape even when re-told over time and geographical distance; but it is not a factual thing.” They went off on a tangent of backbones and skeletons but I drew them back to my argument.
“And what about Adam and Eve, where’s the evidence? “ I said. No evidence was offered. The conversation by the way was friendly and not hostile on either side but clearly I was leading the train of thoughts and they were listening and not preaching. “As it happens,” I said,” this local area of northern France contains a vast  amount of evidence for two very long periods of Neanderthal occupation. In point of fact at one dig nearby, about 2000 Neanderthal artifacts turned up in one cubic meter of excavation. And yet Neanderthals moved out from here around sixty thousand years back and became extinct about forty thousand years ago!” I pointed out that If Adam and Eve were created by God how did Neanderthals get in on the act since outside of Africa we all carry a small percentage of their genes in us?
For the moment they actually became silent, thinking through the consequences; they had no answer. The slightly older man finally said in defence that he was not ashamed but proud to declare his belief in creation and in Adam and Eve. “Yes I think pride in one’s culture is normal” I said, “but believing in ideas with evidence to the contrary makes no sense for anyone...and that’s why JWs are going in reverse, where the rest of the world is going forward in knowledge”.
Therefore, they could not tempt me with their information.”How can JWs teach anything when they do not put up evidence first?” They have no credibility. I had to admit to them that I had been the one doing the preaching but stressed that JWs seem nice people yet sadly, although adult, still believe in childish fairy tales!
I’m sure they were not convinced (a JW never wants to escape from the mutual comfort blanket supplied by his religious club) and also because it takes time, a lot of reflection and evidence to learn TTATT. The JW sense of conviction appears to be hard as granite but ultimately it does yield to well directed blows. We left the confrontation amicably but I think they were aware they had some serious thinking to do.
 +7 / -0
alanv
alanv 13 hours ago

Good account. They just do not have answers to people these days.
I just had two JW women to the door. So funny. They started off very politely. Then I told them I used to be a witness, and they asked if I was disfellowshipped. I told them I just walked away from the religion when I found out it had misled for me years. They asked me how, and I brought up the last days. They started the normal JW line about how things have never been so bad. So I responded telling them that actually if they check, they will find that we are living in one of the best times in human history, and gave them some examples, one being the relative world peace since the end of world war two.
Immediately they replied with the scripture that says about peace and security just before the end.
So we went from the worst time in history to we are living at a time when there is relative peace and security on the earth.
I laughed and pointed out they cant have it both ways. With that they decided it was time to go, and even when I said they should be willing to defend their faith, they couldn't get away from me fast enough.
 +3 / -0
jaydee
jaydee 9 hours ago

The slightly older man finally said in defence that he was not ashamed but proud to declare his belief in creation and in Adam and Eve
.......Proverbs 16:18.......anyone.....???
 
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 8 hours ago

It becomes something ironic that the WTS. never teaches people the actual truth about the writings set in the bible.
Noah's flood for example was just one of many fictional stories told by the ancient Hebrews to create power and relevance to their select envisioned god. Other ancient civilizations told many stories concerning their gods as well under this same underlining intent. How do we know these stories are inherently fictional ? because now we have the investigative science and knowledge to show they were . 

Human ignorance is an undeniably and indisputable fact in are own inherent historical existence.
Religionist are never openly in agreement toward that acceptance through intellectual honesty.

 +1 / -0
Coded Logic
Coded Logic 8 hours ago
Isaiah had a word for sphere (Isaiah 22:18) but instead decided to describe the world as being flat. It's almost like the Bible was written by iron age men who had no understanding of their world. Weird.
 +4 / -0
Phizzy
Phizzy 5 hours ago

Well done H B !
It is a conversation they will not be able to forget, though they will try to shove it to the back of their minds. Eventually Cognitive Dissonance becomes so uncomfortable that something has to give.
Good work !
 

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Prodigal son or prodigal father?
by elbib 16 hours ago 2 Replies latest 15 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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elbib
elbib 16 hours ago

The impression I get from reading Parable of Prodigal Son is that it is more about a father who is prodigal. He gave his son’s share without any sort of reasoning (a kind of lavishness) and on his return made arrangement for a celebration killing “a fattened calf” (again a kind of lavishness) which does not make him resemble like his Heavenly Father who had commanded: “You shall not murder.” (Exodus 20:13) For God, slaughtering an animal or a human being does not make any difference. (Isaiah 66:3) God’s view of lives of other species remains unchanged, declares Jesus: “Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God.” (Luke 12:6) Moreover, God’s view of sin is also totally different from the father of this parable. (Mathew 12:36; 25:41, 46) Thus, this parable conveys a lighter view of sin!
Interestingly, there is another incident in the Bible which similarly carries a lighter view of sin in John 8:1-11 which is now put in brackets by the reference editions of the Bible because it is not found in the earliest Manuscripts of the Bible. Still, JWs believe that every verse of the Bible is inspired of God, and it is their supreme authority.


 
sir82
sir82 16 hours ago


For God, slaughtering an animal or a human being does not make any difference.
Well he sure seemed to enjoy the animal sacrifices made at the temple.
1 Kings 8:63,64:
Solʹo·mon offered the communion sacrifices to Jehovah: He offered 22,000 cattle and 120,000 sheep. Thus the king and all the Israelites inaugurated the house of Jehovah. On that day the king had to sanctify the middle of the courtyard that is before the house of Jehovah, for there he had to offer up the burnt sacrifices, the grain offerings, and the fat pieces of the communion sacrifices, because the copper altar that is before Jehovah was too small to contain the burnt sacrifices, the grain offerings, and the fat pieces of the communion sacrifices

 
elbib
elbib 15 hours ago

SirB2,
Such sacrifices are of human origin (Jer 7:22; 8:8). However, my point is not about sacrifices. I was just highlighting the widespread inconsistencies in the Bible which now even Bible scholars themselves are becoming aware of and publicly speaking. Why, even NW ref edition puts John 8:1-11 into footnote.
 

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Jonah's success, J-dubs failure in preaching.
by Darkknight757 a day ago 15 Replies latest 4 hours ago   watchtower bible
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Darkknight757
Darkknight757 a day ago

3:1 Then the word of the Lord came to Jonah a second time: 2 “Go to the great city of Nineveh and proclaim to it the message I give you.”3 Jonah obeyed the word of the Lord and went to Nineveh. Now Nineveh was a very large city; it took three days to go through it. 4 Jonah began by going a day’s journey into the city, proclaiming, “Forty more days and Nineveh will be overthrown.” 5 The Ninevites believed God. A fast was proclaimed, and all of them, from the greatest to the least, put on sackcloth.6 When Jonah’s warning reached the king of Nineveh, he rose from his throne, took off his royal robes, covered himself with sackcloth and sat down in the dust.




So I was sitting through the meeting this evening and a thought occurred to me, God blessed Jonah and made his ministry successful when he went to Nineveh, yet how can the dubs claim God is blessing the preaching work they are doing today? Where's the proof? 100,000 hour average hours per new publisher? In just a few days Jonah convinced an entire city to turn around.😳
Peter did one speech after Jesus death and 3000 were converted in one day. What dub in their right mind can even begin to think that God is blessing the preaching work today?
 +6 / -0
dbq407
dbq407 a day ago

I had a few issues with the article tonight, but the one that stood out is how they tried to say that even though god felt regret over the calamity he had spoken, didn't mean his own judgement had been in error. They then proceeded to use deut. 32:4 saying that his activity is perfect and all his ways are justice.
Well either the bible contradicted itself here or i misunderstand what regret means. Usually regret i thought was feeling bad about something you did that wasn't right?
Also they said god is nothing like the rigid,cold,even harsh god so often portrayed by religious leaders. When actually he is exactly like that if you read the old testament.
 +2 / -0
Darkknight757
Darkknight757 a day ago

Agreed dbq. Also how did God NOT punish Jonah? He caused a storm that nearly killed him and other innocents. Then he gave Jonah a 3 day acid bath in the stomach of a huge fish.
By the way, Nineveh was only 3 square miles. Why do the dubs think it was like 75 square miles? Weird.
 
dbq407
dbq407 a day ago
The gb can tell the flock anything they want and they just eat it up. Critics, historians, professionals are always wrong, unless their views actually support what the gb says.
 +1 / -0
Lieu
Lieu 21 hours ago

JWs aren't failures. Seriously. Everyone knows who they are and not to answer the door.
Not sure why we should equate the everyday publisher with a Prophet and Apostles.
All those "preaching" instructions and proclamations are for the "annointed". Run of the mill publishers aren't under any obligations to preach since none of the NT applies to them, per WTBTS.
Jonah got sucked up because he was upset that God didn't kill everyone in Nineveh. Kinda like a mean Elder, Jonah wanted the Ninevehvites disfellowshipped despite repentance. Lol
 +2 / -0
prologos
prologos 20 hours ago

"God showed mercy to Jonah by not letting him drown", but he caused the storm in the first place (or did not stop it, endangering all). Then he send him on a mission to preach the downfall, when gad must have known full well, that here would in the  end no destruction. He made af ool out of Jonah, and the witnesses are like fools with their 1914, 1925, 1975 2075 predictions, ostensibly miraculously derived at by  god's spirit-directed organisation.
In the end, blame Jonah, or ha-noj, because he got it all backward.
 +2 / -0
smiddy
smiddy 18 hours ago

The majority of Jehovah`s Witnesses and I am speaking of the rank and file publishers who would average 10 hours a month going from door to door for the bulk of their life , say 20-30 years preaching would not gain one convert in all the time they have witnessed door to door.
I was preaching for 33 years and I never gained one convert in the door to door work , however I gained a few converts with family and thankfully none are in the religion anymore except one niece ,sadly.
A congregation of 100 witnesses spends on average 10 hours a month , how many interested people from all that witnessing come to the Kingdom hall , more often than not.?....... none.
Multiply this by thousands of congregations in any Country and what do you get.........not much
smiddy
 +4 / -0
Darkknight757
Darkknight757 16 hours ago

Agreed smiddy. I was at it for a solid 20 years putting in more than average hours and using all the "best" tactics with no result.
It certainly is a great way to keep people inundated with busy work.



edit: a note from para 6
“6 When Jonah finally entered Nineveh, its sizable population of more than 120,000 may have made the place only more intimidating.* He walked for a day, penetrating ever deeper into that teeming metropolis, perhaps looking for a suitable central location to start spreading his message.”
So did Jonah walk for an entire day, ignoring all until he found a "suitable central location to START spreading his message?"
Jonah 3:4 Jonah began by going a day’s journey into the city, proclaiming, “Forty more days and Nineveh will be overthrown.”
Says he went a day's journey PROCLAIMING!! Perhaps I'm wrong here but it would seem silly to remain silent for an entire day in order to find a good spot to preach. Unless Jonah had an apathy cart?? One can only guess.
 +1 / -0
prologos
prologos 15 hours ago
"Jonah was not a false prophet." even though he preached a doomsday message that was proven wrong. that is the idea that wt wants to sink in . Jonah was not preaching the truth. The "truth", his message, was only a means to an end. he was used. He suspected that in the beginning, he knew it at the end. Now his story is used again to spur on JWorgers to get converts. The imitation faith on the march. Macmillan.
 
The Rebel
The Rebel 14 hours ago

Imagine the scene, it's a lovely day outside and your thinking of taking the family out for a picnic. I would call that an idyllic way to spend the day wouldn't you? Now imagine suddenly there is a knock, knock on the bloody door. You know who it is? Honestly haven't you got better things to do than answer it? Why stop having a good time, to listern to an evil and nonsensical message from a cult? This is why it takes 100,ooo hours per conversion.
The Rebel.
 +2 / -0

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Jonah's success, J-dubs failure in preaching.
by Darkknight757 a day ago 15 Replies latest 4 hours ago   watchtower bible
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Darkknight757
Darkknight757 13 hours ago

I also love how the society proves that the people of Nineveh converted...
Note para 9 of chapter 14 of Imitation Faith:
“9 Some critics express doubt that such a change of heart could have occurred so quickly among the Ninevites. However, Bible scholars have noted that a movement of that kind was not out of keeping with the superstitious and volatile nature of people of such cultures in ancient times. Further, we know that such critics are mistaken, for Jesus Christ himself later referred to the repentance of the Ninevites. (Read Matthew 12:41.) Jesus knew what he was talking about, for he had been alive in heaven to witness those events as they unfolded. (John 8:57, 58) The truth is, we should never assume that it is impossible for people to repent—no matter how vicious they may seem to us. Only Jehovah can read what lies within the human heart.”
So how do we know this is an actual historical event? Because Jesus said so....
Really, because Jesus said so????? This coming from the same book that says green vegetation was created one whole creative "day" before the sun. The same book that has talking animals. The same chapter of a book that claims a man can live in a fish for 3 days. I smell pooh pooh.😷
 +2 / -0
ttdtt
ttdtt 13 hours ago
Could it be - hmm - Satan!
:smile:
 +1 / -0
punkofnice
punkofnice 12 hours ago

dbq407
The gb can tell the flock anything they want and they just eat it up. Critics, historians, professionals are always wrong, unless their views actually support what the gb says.
My sentiments exactly!
 +1 / -0
Crazyguy
Crazyguy 10 hours ago
This writing is just obvious proof that most of The writings in the bible are just per propaganda.
 +1 / -0
Darkknight757
Darkknight757 10 hours ago
I told a Lutheran guy I work with about Jonah and the fish and he can't believe wts takes this literally. LOL
 +1 / -0
dbq407
dbq407 4 hours ago
someone also made the comment last night that Jonah after being spit out of the fish, would have been scared to make god angry again and that he would go to Ninevah because god could use anything to eat him, such as a horse. I was like wtf?
 

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Topic Summary
3:1 then the word of the lord came to jonah a second time: 2 “go to the great city of nineveh and proclaim to it the message i give you.”3 jonah obeyed the word of the lord and went to nineveh.
now nineveh was a very large city; it took three days to go through it.
4 jonah began by going a day’s journey into the city, proclaiming, “forty more days and nineveh will be overthrown.” 5 the ninevites believed god.



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The Law of Unintended Consequences
by Londo111 a day ago 15 Replies latest an hour ago   watchtower beliefs
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Londo111
Londo111 a day ago

The Governing Body/Watchtower unduly influences millions into extreme beliefs and behaviors. And I suspect folks like Anthony Morris thinks his flock is not obedient or strict enough and there are many rules and teachings the Governing Body would love to enact but do not have the votes, or even they have the sense enough to know it would go too far.
However, I can’t help thinking how by the time their edicts filter down to the rank and file JW, it causes unintended consequences. The flock picks up the belief system and runs with it in directions or to a degree Watchtower never intended. It’s almost as if there is the JW official religion, found in the pages of Watchtower publications, and then there is an unofficial JW folk religion. The ‘peasants’ can easily get whipped into a hysteria.
For instance, while finally dropping the charade and declaring that only the Governing Body is the Faithful Slave, they increased their prestige. Now they have more crazed fans than ever. Likely, they did not intend to become rock stars.
What other things do you think are a result of unintended consequences?
 
Giordano
Giordano a day ago

By discouraging higher learning the JW's are now listed as the least educated religion in the USA in the Pew Survey.
Because of jw,org the internet is now being used and probably abused by JW's in all manner of ways. Everything about them is now fair game.
 +2 / -0
Londo111
Londo111 a day ago
Very true. Less education=less donations.
 +1 / -0
sparrowdown
sparrowdown a day ago

I would actually propose that there are four WT stories:
The Secret Official - only to be found or spoken of in hushed tones amongst a select few in a boardroom somewhere.
The Almost Official - found in the Elders manuals, the Letters to BOEs, Branch office directives etc etc.
The Public WT - found in the literature and the website.
The real WT - found in the small- minded, narcissististic, judgemental, intolerant, brainwashed, WT-spiel-quoting-zombies AKA the congregation, the brothers, the friends, etc etc.
An unintended consequence for WT would be oh I don't know, an abuse victim going to the police and taking them to court because they were discouraged from doing so by a cold BOE.
 +3 / -0
OnTheWayOut
OnTheWayOut a day ago

Likely, they did not intend to become rock stars.
 
sparrowdown
sparrowdown a day ago
"By their fruits you will recognize them" WT's "fruits" are rotten to the core.
 +2 / -0
Spiral
Spiral a day ago

Keeping people in you really don't want in, because they can play the system and keep from being DF'd, or get reinstated shortly.
The worst part of that is they really don't even see it.
 
Spiral
Spiral a day ago
oh, and smart people leaving, with their money. They'll do well "in the world" and won't give you a dime.
 +1 / -0
talesin
talesin a day ago

DIsfellowshipping is a great anti-witness. All who have become close to me, hate the religion, and spread the word about the sexism, child abuse (including child martyrs) and shunning.
 +2 / -0
jwleaks
jwleaks a day ago

The Grandfather paradox involves a time traveler going back into the past and killing his grandfather before he meets his grandmother. This then creates the situation in which the time travel is never actually born and therefore could not travel in time to kill his grandfather.
Effectively this is what the current governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses have actually done. Using historical revisionism as the time machine they have traveled back in time and deleted the existence of the faithful and discreet slave class. This has then created a situation in which the faithful and discreet slave class never existed and therefore could never have appointed a representative governing body.
 +8 / -0

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The Law of Unintended Consequences
by Londo111 a day ago 15 Replies latest an hour ago   watchtower beliefs
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Lieu
Lieu 21 hours ago

First mistake is thinking the GB have a flock.
Second, is thinking any sheep roaming about belong to them.
That's the problem. People thinking hired workers are actually the CEO.
 
Londo111
Londo111 10 hours ago
Talesin:
I agree. Disfellowshipping is a great anti-witness. Many who thought JWs were just some nice people and didn't see beyond the carefully crafted image now know the real truth.
 +1 / -0
sir82
sir82 10 hours ago


By discouraging higher learning the JW's are now listed as the least educated religion in the USA in the Pew Survey.
And thus, they are not qualified for well-paying jobs.
Thus, they have little disposable income.
Thus, they don't contribute to the WTS.
Thus, the WTS is forced to close branches, lay off Bethelites & special pioneers, and screechingly halt nearly all major construction projects, due to lack of funds.

 +2 / -0
Hecce
Hecce 10 hours ago
The people in the knowing, what I will call mature are not buying the divinity of the GB. For the majority of them the DS doctrine was already suspicious and if you kill that one then you are stabbing the new understanding. The personalities of the GB are so weird that they are not likable or persuasive.
 
Vidiot
Vidiot 8 hours ago


sir82 - "And thus, they are not qualified for well-paying jobs. Thus, they have little disposable income. Thus, they don't contribute to the WTS. Thus, the WTS is forced to close branches, lay off Bethelites & special pioneers, and screechingly halt nearly all major construction projects, due to lack of funds."
This, to me, is one of the more ironic aspects of the WTS's apparent decline.
 +2 / -0
LongHairGal
LongHairGal an hour ago

SIR 82:
I couldn't have said it better!
And to ADD to that law of unintended consequences: the laid-off volunteers you mentioned end up back in the congregations face to face with working rank & file JWs they sneered at !! They imagine these r&f are going to give them money. Wrong again. The rank & file are either broke OR they have a long memory, like I would, and wouldn't give a dime to these people.
I was the single woman criticized for working full-time and not considered "spiritual enough" and gossiped about. I was not invited to special gatherings. I had to listen to unkind remarks about "materialism" from people who didn't have a clue.
The unintended consequence of all this unchristian behavior is that I am not interested in Jehovah's Witnesses or their hard-luck stories. Now it is MY turn to run from them. How's that for unintended consequences?
 +2 / -0

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Topic Summary
the governing body/watchtower unduly influences millions into extreme beliefs and behaviors.
and i suspect folks like anthony morris thinks his flock is not obedient or strict enough and there are many rules and teachings the governing body would love to enact but do not have the votes, or even they have the sense enough to know it would go too far.
however, i can’t help how by the time their edicts filter down to the rank and file jw, it causes unintended consequences.



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I think my Sunday speaker is awake
by Yondaime a day ago 26 Replies latest 18 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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Yondaime
Yondaime a day ago

Hi guys and gals,
Its been a long time since I've posted here, I've been caught up with school and work so I've never had the time to post on the forum, but I've still been reading through some articles on here. Now that Finals are over I have some time to breath. But something happened last Sunday that I absolutely have to talk about. So here goes.
On Sunday a speaker from a congregation not far came to do the public talk.
This guy is a bethelite.
Basically he starts off the talk explaining how the WBTS came into existence. He went on to explain how Russell was first a minister in Pennsylvania, and eventually moved to Brooklyn in order to spread his sermon at a much higher frequency through a news paper article called the Watchtower.
He goes on to explain how the bible students were formed, etc...
Then he admitted on stage that Russell believed the Armageddon would come in 1914, and that he got it wrong. Armageddon didn't come. He then went on to explain how many of the bible students left the faith, and went on to form their own religions.
After he explained the Russell predicted Armageddon and that he got it wrong, I was stunned. I almost had a panic attack. I looked to my right to see the expression on my parent's faces; they had their normal expressions like nothing was wrong. I couldn't believe what was happening.
He continued with his talk and from the beginning to around 24 minutes in, he didn't read a single bible verse. He also talked about Rutherford's personality, and how he was a mean guy; along with all the differences and conflicts he had with Russell. He then brought a very old publication from the early 1900s with a quote from Rutherford criticizing patriotism, and explained how the government didn't like what he said and imprisoned him for 9 months.
At the end of his talk he encouraged all the young people in our hall to volunteer in bethel service, and to do more research on and cherish our (the organization's) "beautiful heritage". He then walked off the stage.
He didn't read a single bible verse during the entire talk. And he openly admitted the Jehovah's Witnesses predicted Armageddon.
I don't know what to think of this, but that man sowed many seeds of doubt that day.
 +24 / -0
ttdtt
ttdtt a day ago

I don't think that 1914 is a secret man:smile:
So this was a special Bethel service talk - or the regular public talk?
 +3 / -0
Yondaime
Yondaime a day ago

@ttdtt
it was a regular public talk.
I wasn't so about what he said, but the way he said it. lol
 +2 / -0
berrygerry
berrygerry a day ago


it was a regular public talk.
That is not a regular public talk.
 +3 / -0
RichardHaley
RichardHaley a day ago
Not an existing outline for Sunday public talk for sure!
 +5 / -0
steve2
steve2 a day ago

Sounds unusual that he should speak so directly about 1914 without explaining how the light gets brighter.
BTW, according to your outline, the speaker "brought a very old publication from the early 1900s with a quote from Rutherford criticizing patriotism". Rutherford did not write books until the 1920s - even the infamous book "The Finished Mystery", published in 191,7 did not carry Rutherford's authorship.
 
ttdtt
ttdtt a day ago

There is NO outline even close to that topic.
Did they announce a talk title?
 +4 / -0
dugout
dugout a day ago
you mean to tell me he didn't say anything about field service,the new world,paridise, the resurrection, meeting attendence? Yea!!!! hes gone
 +1 / -0
DesirousOfChange
DesirousOfChange a day ago

That's all in the Proclaimers Book.
But active JWs never read the WT publications. Only "apostate" JWs read the publications.
Doc

 +7 / -0
Juan Viejo2
Juan Viejo2 a day ago

I agree with berrygerry. All public talks and all service talks are heavily scripted and none go into the history of the Watchtower or any of its early leaders and personalities.
Either this Bethelite was invited (much to their regret) to speak to the congregation by the elders, or he simply went off the reservation - much to the horror of the elders.
I have heard of this happening on a few rare occasions. A former elder, CO, DO or Bethelite who has awakened, decides to use his next speaking assignment to just let go and tell his story or expose the WT. These situations, while very rare and not usually reported, do happen from time to time. As long as the speech is given in a calm manner and is not completely over the top (as was the one reported by Yondaime), the elders will lay low while the talk is going on and won't take any actions until after the meeting is over.
Perhaps at the next meeting one of the elders will mention the talk briefly and indicate that Brother So N So was having a bad night or was not feeling well, so some of what he said might not agree with current teachings and everyone should just move on and concentrate on current publications.
Elders will usually do whatever they can to discourage any further communication or discussion about the event or the subject. They will figure (correctly, it seems) that most of the audience will not really have been paying attention or will have taken special note of what the brother actually said. The few that might come to the elders to ask questions can be easily brushed off and told to just forget about what happened and what they heard. To do otherwise would show "disobedience to Jehovah and His organization."

This will very likely happen more often in the future. The Watchtower knows this. That is why they have extra elders near the stage and a brother who reads the scripted talks as they are given. Speakers who go off the script - even a little bit - will be counseled not to let that happen again, especially during a convention - unless they are one of the Governing Body members (who seem to go over the hill every so often - just because they can).
There have been there have been rare reports of speakers actually being hustled off the stage and escorted out of the Kingdom Hall when something like this happens. Occasionally, someone who has learned TTATT will just stand up while sitting in the audience and start shouting out about the Watchtower's lies and failures (a la Derek OHare in GB). The meeting is put on a brief hold while a few brothers simply remove the person from the auditorium and take them outside.
Elders and ministerial servants are informed about how to handle disturbances and out-of-control guest speakers. More often than not, they will have to face a drunk or drugged person who wandered into the Kingdom Hall rather than a speaker who decided to go off the reservation one night.
JV

 +8 / -0

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I think my Sunday speaker is awake
by Yondaime a day ago 26 Replies latest 18 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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ttdtt
ttdtt a day ago

Juan Viejo2
That is why they have extra elders near the stage and a brother who reads the scripted talks as they are given. Speakers who go off the script - even a little bit - will be counseled not to let that happen again, especially during a convention -
I am not sure where you get this info? I have given talks on every level - and have been the chairman at District Assemblies. The Chairman has all the outlines - and has to be ready to fill in if a brother is sick and can't finish.
There are NO manuscript talks anymore!
There are no extra elders?





 
out4good4
out4good4 a day ago
No insult intended or implied, but, this sounds like an awake but trapped in ex-jws wet dream to me.
 
Doubtfully Yours
Doubtfully Yours a day ago

Thanks to the www many inside are fully awake. I see the religion becoming a social community and nothing else; the young are leaving, the old are indifferent to the dogma, just staying for the social value of it. Meeting absence is at an all time high, service at an all time low.
In the Spanish cong, we have lots of gatherings and it is all about eating, drinking, dancing and having fun. Parents are very concerned with getting their kids further educated.
We have become like the Catholic Church, whatever the dogma the parishioners do whatever they want or feel is right. Being awake is awesome!🌞
DY
 +5 / -0
Yondaime
Yondaime a day ago

@ttdtt
Sadly I don't remember the title, I'll ask my dad for it.
@dugout
Yea lol I couldn't believe it myself.
@Juan Viejo2
Very interesting. I hope this happens more often!
 
Finkelstein
Finkelstein a day ago

Most JWS even the long time ones, do not know that 1914 was first calculated to be the year of Armageddon leading up from 1874 as the first devised date of Christ's return.

Most JWS don't even know about the WTS's first leader C T Russell making up Christ return by using the ridiculously stupid theology of Pyramidology

 +3 / -0
Yondaime
Yondaime a day ago

@out4good4
I know lol. I almost wet myself.
 +1 / -0
Crazyguy
Crazyguy a day ago
I don't think it says inn The proclaimed book that Russel predicted Armageddon in 1914. They show the pyramid graph with all the dates missing. Them I think they just imply that they predicted the end of the gentile times and how Jesus took his thrown Russel getting it all right. He sounds awake to me.
 
Half banana
Half banana a day ago

Brilliant Yondaime,  I agree, let's just hope it does happen more frequently in the future.
The speaker has a captive audience and a bethelite carries WT authority...more of this please!
 +1 / -0
Giordano
Giordano a day ago

This is exactly why I recommend this site: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Jehovah%27s_Witnesses
for anyone interested in the real JW history. It is neutral in tone and documented. The schism chart is very interesting.
 
Diogenesister
Diogenesister a day ago
Awake for sure....ask the elders the name of the talk and if he's coming back, how much u enjoyed it etc and see their reaction....that should tell you all you need to know!
 +5 / -0

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Topic Summary
hi guys and gals,.
its been a long time since i've posted here, i've been caught up with school and work so i've never had the time to post on the forum, but i've still been reading through some articles on here.
now that finals are over i have some time to breath.



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The Miracle Wheat Episode: Summary
by ILoveTTATT2 2 months ago
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by Terry a month ago
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EX J-DUB TRIVIA (TRY it and see how many you can get correctly)
by Terry 3 months ago



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I think my Sunday speaker is awake
by Yondaime a day ago 26 Replies latest 18 hours ago   watchtower beliefs
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Listener
Listener a day ago

They are taught this at the Gilead school, this could have been one of the brothers that does the teaching.
With so much ttatt available today they are prepared to discuss the past with the wheelies. They put their slant on the information. They are so happy to use the past to show how far they have come. They have no shame in spinning it any way they can.
They even say that God knew what his people needed at the time, that is why the charismatic Russell led the people initially and the tougher Rutherford took over.
 +1 / -0
Juan Viejo2
Juan Viejo2 a day ago

ttdtt -
Maybe something has changed recently. The use of script readers for conventions has been reported for several years. This was not the case when I was giving public talks back in the 1960s, but I've had several ex-elders and former relatively high ranking brothers who were actually assigned to be script readers at district and regional conventions.
I do believe that this is a relatively new development (since 2000, probably) - the script readers sitting off to the side or behind the curtains at assemblies. I have also heard that brothers assigned to give the 30-minute public talk during the weekend meetings are also cautioned not to go off script or face the loss of that privilege.
Much has changed since the era of 55-minute public talks developed and given by mature brothers who filled in the gaps and added some of their own experiences to the outlines that we were given.
I attended a recent convention near my home a few years back. It was the Saturday afternoon session when they first released the first cartoon DVD for children (2011?). There was a group of 15-minute presentations that were interviews with local full-time pioneers describing how they overcame their money and personal needs in order to put in 100 hours a month - or whatever it was at the time. I could tell that the those interviewed were either reading their notes or had memorized their presentations word for word. It all just seemed so rehearsed and unbelievable, but I thought that was my "inner apostate" talking.
Later I happened to meet a former elder who had left the JWs at a meetup. I mentioned my observation. He told me how the process worked and about the offstage script checkers. Later, I met another former elder who told me that the script-readers were real. He also mentioned that sometimes the presentation by the "pioneers" really does not represent their lives (often the same exact "pioneer talk" is given at several different convention locations). The local elders recommend JWs who are serving as pioneers or elders and then they are given the script to read and told that they are representing other exceptional pioneers - not themselves personally.
It's all very scripted. I still can not get over the sing-song style that most JW speakers use now - far too practiced and rehearsed - just like the JW.org videos and training sessions on disk.
JV
 +3 / -0
Diogenesister
Diogenesister a day ago

Juan Viejo2 It's all very scripted. I still can not get over the sing-song style that most JW speakers use now - far too practiced and rehearsed
Hell yeah! It drives me mad, I don't know how the modern witnesses can stand it...talk about a witnesses being a culture...its almost become an actual JW " dialect"
 +1 / -0
Hecce
Hecce a day ago
The speaker is out of the "reservation".
 
elbib
elbib a day ago
Bethelites sometime do such blunter. In my congregation too it happened. A bethelite gave a public talk on the biblical incident of 10 lepers being cured by Jesus, yet only one of the returning to thank him. It was not an outline-talk. Later he was counselled by Bethel higher ups.
 
Jehalapeno
Jehalapeno a day ago
Steve2: the 1920's ARE the early 1900's. Lol
 +2 / -0
Syme
Syme 18 hours ago

That the Bible Students expected Armageddon to come in 1914 is no secret; it is written in the Proclaimers books, among other publications. The 'faithful' ones don't consider this a counter-evidence of divine guidance. They consider it as just a fact that showed how deeply and truly the Bible students were longing for Christ's coming.
The thing with him not reading any Bible verse is a bit curious, though. At least a few years ago when I was active, the orders were to read from the Bible directly, especially in a public talk. But, Bethelites tend to bend the rules for themselves.
 

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Topic Summary
hi guys and gals,.
its been a long time since i've posted here, i've been caught up with school and work so i've never had the time to post on the forum, but i've still been reading through some articles on here.
now that finals are over i have some time to breath.



Related Topics
ILoveTTATT2
The Miracle Wheat Episode: Summary
by ILoveTTATT2 2 months ago
Terry
A Brief History of MONEY and the Watchtower religion
by Terry a month ago
Terry
The saga of Russell and Rutherford
by Terry a month ago
Terry
TRUTH or OPINION--which is it when the Governing Body speaks?
by Terry a month ago
Terry
EX J-DUB TRIVIA (TRY it and see how many you can get correctly)
by Terry 3 months ago



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cofty
Evolution is a Fact #36 - Mass Extinctions
by cofty in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 3 hours ago
250 million years ago a plume of molten basalt gushed up from the earth's core.

it erupted in an area now known as the siberian traps - back then it was part of the supercontinent pangaea.

a curtain of lava a mile high and hundreds of miles long lit up the sky.

Londo111
4
Watchtower myth: God’s will discerned through committees, not individual leaders
by Londo111 in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 4 hours ago
be it the governing body, or the a judicial committee of the local elder body, when a two-thirds majority vote is reached, it is viewed as god’s will, as the action of holy spirit, of jesus nudging the stars in his right hand.

[and if i’m not mistaken, the minority is encouraged to change their vote, so that is “unanimous”.

anthony morris alluded to this when he unsuccessfully tried to explain why the governing body is not dogmatic.

Londo111
cha ching
Londo111
3 hours ago
James Mixon
5
Letter to the GB...Would they see it??
by James Mixon in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 5 hours ago
if one sent a nice note to the gb, "you guys are a bunch of low life scumbags", would they cover.

it in their meeting and respond to my letter?.

sparky1
James Mixon
ToesUp
4 hours ago
Balaamsass2
17
NEW PEW Research data on Jehovah's Witnesses just released
by Balaamsass2 in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 10 hours ago
i was expecting people who "identified" as jws to follow watchtower beliefs more closely than these pollsters report.. .

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/04/26/a-closer-look-at-jehovahs-witnesses-living-in-the-u-s/.

Londo111
Balaamsass2
Balaamsass2
2 hours ago
StarTrekAngel
8
April is child abuse prevention month
by StarTrekAngel in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 11 hours ago
at least here in texas.

in the building where i work, there is a big poster board and people are putting signatures down on it.

i was thinking about printing something similar to the billboard that was up in benton, tx and adding to the board.

rebelfighter
cha ching
StarTrekAngel
4 hours ago
Half banana
5
Fed up with Prince? try: Un petit blog de France
by Half banana in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 14 hours ago
i have just spent ten days working in france, i arrived late on friday night and the first thing saturday morning two visitors ominously strolled into my garden..

i was offered the flimsy awake which i opened and was immediately struck with a very false image.

the article gave the feel that the magazine was scientifically credible.

Finkelstein
Coded Logic
Phizzy
6 hours ago
elbib
2
Prodigal son or prodigal father?
by elbib in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 16 hours ago
the impression i get from reading parable of prodigal son is that it is more about a father who is prodigal.

he gave his son’s share without any sort of reasoning (a kind of lavishness) and on his return made arrangement for a celebration killing “a fattened calf” (again a kind of lavishness) which does not make him resemble like his heavenly father who had commanded: “you shall not murder.” (exodus 20:13) for god, slaughtering an animal or a human being does not make any difference.

(isaiah 66:3) god’s view of lives of other species remains unchanged, declares jesus: “are not five sparrows sold for two pennies?

sir82
elbib
16 hours ago
Darkknight757
15
Jonah's success, J-dubs failure in preaching.
by Darkknight757 in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 a day ago
3:1 then the word of the lord came to jonah a second time: 2 “go to the great city of nineveh and proclaim to it the message i give you.”3 jonah obeyed the word of the lord and went to nineveh.

now nineveh was a very large city; it took three days to go through it.

4 jonah began by going a day’s journey into the city, proclaiming, “forty more days and nineveh will be overthrown.” 5 the ninevites believed god.

Crazyguy
Darkknight757
dbq407
4 hours ago
Londo111
15
The Law of Unintended Consequences
by Londo111 in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 a day ago
the governing body/watchtower unduly influences millions into extreme beliefs and behaviors.

and i suspect folks like anthony morris thinks his flock is not obedient or strict enough and there are many rules and teachings the governing body would love to enact but do not have the votes, or even they have the sense enough to know it would go too far.

however, i can’t help how by the time their edicts filter down to the rank and file jw, it causes unintended consequences.

Hecce
Vidiot
LongHairGal
an hour ago
Yondaime
26
I think my Sunday speaker is awake
by Yondaime in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 a day ago
hi guys and gals,.

its been a long time since i've posted here, i've been caught up with school and work so i've never had the time to post on the forum, but i've still been reading through some articles on here.

now that finals are over i have some time to breath.

elbib
Jehalapeno
Syme
18 hours ago
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