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2015 statistics  
Posted: 03 April 2016 08:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
finex
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Couple of notes on the 2015 LDS statistic.
 
Total membership 15,634,199
New children of record 114,550
Converts baptized 257,402
Full-time missionaries 74,079
 
New children of record is lowest since 2009. This number has been declining rather steady pace. 
Converts baptized is lowest since 2006 so decreasing the missionary ages just isn't paying off.
Calculted growth 1,7% is continuing the trend being the lowest figure in the past 10 years.
Calculated deaths and resignations combined  110,090, also lowest since 2008.
Calculated birth rate 7,39/1000.
Calculated death & resignations rate 7,04/1000.
 
The world death rate is roughly 7,9/1000. If TSCC death & resignations would include only deaths the figure could be acceptable, but since it also includes resignations the reported number is false.Therefore it is fairly safe to conclude that TSCC does not subtract resigned people from the reported membership number.
 
The world birth rate 18,4/1000 is so significantly higher than the LDS church birth rate that the TSCC number just doesn't make sense. Utah birth rate is about 29% higher than that of the USA in general, which indicates that the birth rate amongst mormons should be actually higher than within the surrounding populations. Using the new children of record and the world birth rate gives an estimate of 6,2 million members. Adjusting the world birth rate with +29% brings down the estimate to 4,8 million members. Actual membership, the number of persons that define themselves as mormons in a level that they report new children to TSCC, is therefore roughly 1/3 of that the TSCC reports as it's membership. Based on the fact that the number of new children of record has been steadily decreasing the past years it is evident that TSCC is actually shrinking.


   


Posted: 04 April 2016 04:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
peace out
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finex:
 
TSCC reports as it's membership. Based on the fact that the number of new children of record has been steadily decreasing the past years it is evident that TSCC is actually shrinking.
 
finex
 
Thanks for putting this together!  I know the TSCC  try’s really hard to obscure the truth in numbers as with everything else. Nice job getting an estimate of the truth.  FYI I love it when they get bad news from their perspective. I’m glad less people will be hurt by the TSCC.  I'm always impressed by how far they will go to present any data in a positive light. It reminds me of corporate tax returns they have one set of books for the IRS on set for the investors. 
 
It appears the word is getting out on the church and it's showing in the hard numbers. 
 


   


Posted: 04 April 2016 02:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Celestial Wedgie
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finex:
Couple of notes on the 2015 LDS statistic.
 
Total membership 15,634,199
New children of record 114,550
Converts baptized 257,402
Full-time missionaries 74,079
 
New children of record is lowest since 2009. This number has been declining rather steady pace. 
Converts baptized is lowest since 2006 so decreasing the missionary ages just isn't paying off.
Calculted growth 1,7% is continuing the trend being the lowest figure in the past 10 years.
Calculated deaths and resignations combined  110,090, also lowest since 2008.
Calculated birth rate 7,39/1000.
Calculated death & resignations rate 7,04/1000.
 
The world death rate is roughly 7,9/1000. If TSCC death & resignations would include only deaths the figure could be acceptable, but since it also includes resignations the reported number is false.Therefore it is fairly safe to conclude that TSCC does not subtract resigned people from the reported membership number.
 
The world birth rate 18,4/1000 is so significantly higher than the LDS church birth rate that the TSCC number just doesn't make sense. Utah birth rate is about 29% higher than that of the USA in general, which indicates that the birth rate amongst mormons should be actually higher than within the surrounding populations. Using the new children of record and the world birth rate gives an estimate of 6,2 million members. Adjusting the world birth rate with +29% brings down the estimate to 4,8 million members. Actual membership, the number of persons that define themselves as mormons in a level that they report new children to TSCC, is therefore roughly 1/3 of that the TSCC reports as it's membership. Based on the fact that the number of new children of record has been steadily decreasing the past years it is evident that TSCC is actually shrinking.
Thanks for doing this work. I find this part particularly telling, with a secondary implication that the LDS church wants to be bigger/more influential than it is.
 
And that just fills me with .
 


   


Posted: 04 April 2016 02:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
former victim
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Ditto that!! 

   


Posted: 04 April 2016 02:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Quartersawn
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Celestial Wedgie:
finex:
Couple of notes on the 2015 LDS statistic.
 
Total membership 15,634,199
New children of record 114,550
Converts baptized 257,402
Full-time missionaries 74,079
 
New children of record is lowest since 2009. This number has been declining rather steady pace. 
Converts baptized is lowest since 2006 so decreasing the missionary ages just isn't paying off.
Calculted growth 1,7% is continuing the trend being the lowest figure in the past 10 years.
Calculated deaths and resignations combined  110,090, also lowest since 2008.
Calculated birth rate 7,39/1000.
Calculated death & resignations rate 7,04/1000.
 
The world death rate is roughly 7,9/1000. If TSCC death & resignations would include only deaths the figure could be acceptable, but since it also includes resignations the reported number is false.Therefore it is fairly safe to conclude that TSCC does not subtract resigned people from the reported membership number.
 
The world birth rate 18,4/1000 is so significantly higher than the LDS church birth rate that the TSCC number just doesn't make sense. Utah birth rate is about 29% higher than that of the USA in general, which indicates that the birth rate amongst mormons should be actually higher than within the surrounding populations. Using the new children of record and the world birth rate gives an estimate of 6,2 million members. Adjusting the world birth rate with +29% brings down the estimate to 4,8 million members. Actual membership, the number of persons that define themselves as mormons in a level that they report new children to TSCC, is therefore roughly 1/3 of that the TSCC reports as it's membership. Based on the fact that the number of new children of record has been steadily decreasing the past years it is evident that TSCC is actually shrinking.
Thanks for doing this work. I find this part particularly telling, with a secondary implication that the LDS church wants to be bigger/more influential than it is.
 
And that just fills me with .
 
 But how can they do that? 
I, and thousands of others, sent in our resignations from the church club. How can they legally still call us members of their club?  
Sounds like they are having trouble leaving alone those that left the church.   (But then we knew that.)
 
Thanks for your number crunching, finex. 
 
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Posted: 05 April 2016 03:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
Hank
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Membership stats drive me nuts. The church, in all reality, may be being honest on this, here's why IMO. Yes, thousands have resigned...how many thousands? 5K? 10K? 100K? Even at 100K that's still a tiny fraction (.6%)and well within a margin of error. The recent big resignation push/demonstration brought in under 2K resignations last I saw in the SL Trib.
 
"But only about 1/3 are active . The church is shrinking."Based on the numbers I've seen, I believe this, but the key word is "active". The 2/3 that are inactive haven't resigned. They're still on the roles as members and in all reality, the church has no way of really knowing who is active or not. Now if you got those 2/3 to resign, then we would be talking serious numbers and hit to the psycheof the church and its actives.


   


Posted: 05 April 2016 04:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
former victim
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 When I start seeing 'for sale' signs on the empty buildings. That moment will be priceless. 

   


Posted: 05 April 2016 04:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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LostInParadise
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Hank:
Membership stats drive me nuts. The church, in all reality, may be being honest on this, here's why IMO. Yes, thousands have resigned...how many thousands? 5K? 10K? 100K? Even at 100K that's still a tiny fraction (.6%)and well within a margin of error. The recent big resignation push/demonstration brought in under 2K resignations last I saw in the SL Trib.
 
"But only about 1/3 are active . The church is shrinking."Based on the numbers I've seen, I believe this, but the key word is "active". The 2/3 that are inactive haven't resigned. They're still on the roles as members and in all reality, the church has no way of really knowing who is active or not. Now if you got those 2/3 to resign, then we would be talking serious numbers and hit to the psycheof the church and its actives.
 
Good point; maybe the resignation numbers aren't such a big deal at the rate they're going. I think the church does have a really good picture of how many are inactive, though. Should be pretty easy to take the attendance numbers and adjust them to typical attendance for "active" members, e.g. 3 out of 4 Sundays or something.
 
Can you just imagine if, say, a million inactive members resigned in 1 year (and put their names on a central list just in case the church has been hiding that number)?
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Posted: 05 April 2016 05:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
Hank
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LostInParadise:
Hank:
Membership stats drive me nuts. The church, in all reality, may be being honest on this, here's why IMO. Yes, thousands have resigned...how many thousands? 5K? 10K? 100K? Even at 100K that's still a tiny fraction (.6%)and well within a margin of error. The recent big resignation push/demonstration brought in under 2K resignations last I saw in the SL Trib.
 
"But only about 1/3 are active . The church is shrinking."Based on the numbers I've seen, I believe this, but the key word is "active". The 2/3 that are inactive haven't resigned. They're still on the roles as members and in all reality, the church has no way of really knowing who is active or not. Now if you got those 2/3 to resign, then we would be talking serious numbers and hit to the psycheof the church and its actives.
 
Good point; maybe the resignation numbers aren't such a big deal at the rate they're going. I think the church does have a really good picture of how many are inactive, though. Should be pretty easy to take the attendance numbers and adjust them to typical attendance for "active" members, e.g. 3 out of 4 Sundays or something.
 
Can you just imagine if, say, a million inactive members resigned in 1 year (and put their names on a central list just in case the church has been hiding that number)?
 
 There's no doubt that the church knows how many inactives there are. Every quarter each ward has to report attendance numbers. They compare this to the total membership on record and know what % is inactive, but they keep including the inactives. Not only does that help numbers, but in theory, some may come back to activity, so you never really know who is inactive unless they resign.


   


Posted: 05 April 2016 06:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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maynardg
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Reminds me of tracting in France.  We would run into Catholic families who would say  --  I am Catholic but not practicing.  I bet there are thousands of mormon who are mormon but not practicing because resigning is not a viable option for them at the present time  --  family, social and maybe occupational pressure to maintain the status quo  --  don't rock the boat.  For me, I had arrived at the point where if I had to show and do the motions, I would have run screaming from the morg  --  I had reached my enough level.  When I was a clerk, I was privy to the memberships stats for the stake and I noticed that three important stats were pretty close most of the time  --  sacrament mtg attendance, tithing payers, TR holders  --  all around 30-35%.  So for me when they give that stats for the whole church, 30-35% of that number are the TBMorgbots and the rest is fluff. 

   


Posted: 05 April 2016 04:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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MishMagnet
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I live in the Midwest, not by Utah at all. 
 
It is very rare for me to run into a fellow postmo.  That is - someone who grew up in the church and decided to leave the church.
 
I have run into quite a few transient Mormons.  People who joined during High School and moved on later - like people tend to do.  Oh, I was a Mormon too for a couple of years and then we moved and I just didn't like my new ward.  Oh, my family was Mormon when I was little and then we stopped going. 
 
It seems pretty normal for Protestant people in the Midwest to switch up religions.  We went here because of the youth group, now we are going here because we know the drummer (yes other churches have drummers and coffee and this freaks me out even 20 years after the fact!) 
 
I think a really large majority of inactives - especially in other countries than the US - think of the church as a blip in their lives.  Didn't mean much to them.  These people are never going to resign.  They have no motivation to.  They went to the church for a little while the same way they joined a gym and then found a better gym. 
 
How many tithe-payers does the church have - that I think would be an interesting number to hear.   
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Posted: 05 April 2016 09:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
finex
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IMO it's dishonest to claim people that don't want to associate themselves with the church as members. Pretty good measure for this is the children of record since that at least demonstrates some level of willingness to associate with the church, whether that is cultural, social or religious. Therefore the vast majority of the "inactives" fall within this category of "not wanting to associate" that TSCC claims as members.
 
Within the past few years the TSCC has lost an average about 2000 "new children of record" annually. Using the world birth rate with this figure estimate the number of lost members this amounts to about 160 000 people per year leaving the church. Just by looking at the number of deaths and resignations that I calculated from the official TSCC published statistics the disparity is significant.
 
I believe TSCC is claiming to have more members just to build an illusion of grandeur within the minds of the active members. A kind of argumentum ad populum based on fabricated numbers to build confidence within the members that they are in the true church and the work of the Lord is advancing. Simply put, TSCC is using all the tricks possible to manipulate people, including inflating the numbers.
 
 


   


Posted: 06 April 2016 01:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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guywithearrings50
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My wife is friends with a woman who is a member of our local LDS ward. She was quite upset when my wife and I quit the morg 4 years ago.
 
Anyway, she is a very strong member and just came back from a mission with her husband last year.
 
Our ward was split into 2 wards back in 2005 due to increasing membership numbers. Everybody was saying how great it was that we were splitting into two wards. The Lord was blessing us with increased membership in the community.
 
Last year, the wards went back to only one ward. When my wife's friend told my wife about this, the friend mentioned that this move back to one ward was a "blessing" because when the wards were split, there wasn't the same feeling of community between the two wards, and now that everyone is back together, it sounds so wonderful during sacrament meeting when all those voices are singing together. It's glorious!!
 
I feel like telling her, "no it's not a blessing, the reason you went back to one ward was because the membership is shrinking".
 
The morg likes to tout itself as a vibrant growing church, but I think the tide it turning. People aren't falling for the bulls**t as quickly as they did before, and many members are leaving because they're tired of putting up with the bulls**t.  
 
Also, as a side note, I don't mean to be disrespectful, but President Monson hasn't been doing well lately, and while I don't wish him ill, I wonder if all the stress of perpetuating the lie is affecting his health.  
 


   


Posted: 06 April 2016 09:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
finex
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finex:

Within the past few years the TSCC has lost an average about 2000 "new children of record" annually. Using the world birth rate with this figure estimate the number of lost members this amounts to about 160 000 people per year leaving the church. Just by looking at the number of deaths and resignations that I calculated from the official TSCC published statistics the disparity is significant.
 
 
 
 Duh! I wasn't really paying attention what I was typing here. The 2000 loss of "new children of record" means an estimate of 160 000 net loss in membership per year. So when they claim to babtize 257 042 new converts at the same time over 400 000 walk out.


   


Posted: 06 April 2016 03:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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LostInParadise
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I think if the church undeniably hit negative growth, it would tip the scales. Maybe we could run an incentive program, give people an awesome book or something if they resign. Giving away books has worked pretty well for the morg sales force.
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Posted: 06 April 2016 05:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
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I think we do need to pass out books and documentaries on how the church has destroyed our families, marriages, bank accounts, peace of mind, etc.  I think we also need bill boards with some of the most ugly and truthful of church leader--past and present--quotes.  The info needs to be out there!
 
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 10 April 2016 10:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
messygoop
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So if the numbers continue to decrease, will they reach a point where they will deliberately omit the bleak and dismal numbers from their GC?
 
Eventually, a few bright TBMs will catch on to their positive spin on negative growth and start asking questions.  
 
Will they come up with some lame ecuse such as "We have so much spiritual matters that we lack the time to share non-spiritual data today."
 
Or maybe this one similar to passing the buck on dissenting votes. "Go see your SP if you have any concerns about church growth." 


   


Posted: 10 April 2016 01:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
TheDogLady
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I know so many people who have "left" but are leaving their names on the rolls for one reason or another. I am too. I wonder if everyone who was really leaving or were "inactive" would take their names off if it would make a difference"? 

   


Posted: 11 April 2016 11:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
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Celestial Wedgie
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TheDogLady:
I know so many people who have "left" but are leaving their names on the rolls for one reason or another. I am too. I wonder if everyone who was really leaving or were "inactive" would take their names off if it would make a difference"?
 
First, welcome to PostMo, TheDogLady!
 
I wonder about the same thing. When I run the mental simulator the result I come up with is this: taking off names would make a difference, but slowly. Eventually more and more people in wards would come to learn--maybe from leadership roles or assignments--that Brother and Sister Smith and their family are no longer LDS. But they seem like such nice people!  Eventually the dark stain of apostasy will fade out of sheer overuse and the option of exiting will seem more viable.
 
At least, that's how I want it to be!


   


            
 
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2015 Conference
"LEAVING A LEGACY"
October 16-18
Doubletree Suites
SLC, Utah




















 


Financial Report for 2011 to Date

Financial Report for 2010 to Date

Financial Report for 2009

Twin Falls Newspaper Article

Twin Falls Billboard

Financial Report for 2009 to Date




The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]

Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]

Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]



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Science vs. religion  
Posted: 07 April 2016 08:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
eventhorizon
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Can religious tradition still fit in a scientific world? 
 
At least, that's how I always framed the question.  "Can religious claims (specifically LDS dogma) be reconciled with an ever-growing and ever-more convincing body of scientific research?" The more I learned the more difficult the question became to answer.
 
I always used to borrow the sickly arguments from intelligent design to account for existence, but always with some self-consciousness (because at their very, very best intelligent design arguments only introduce a level of complexity and ambiguity into an otherwise straight-forward explanation, thereby 'multiplying entities unnecessarily').
 
It doesn't seem pertinent to frame the question that way anymore.  Now I find myself asking, "Is it even pertinent to consider religious claims when contemplating the universe?"
 
I used to point out that places like our earth--indeed, our solar system, are vanishingly rare in the universe.  And they are.  The striking thing about the night sky should not be the thousands of stars visible to the naked eye, but the vast emptiness between us and the stars.  And the astonishing scarcity of everything that surrounds us on earth and that we take so for granted. Interstellar space--that mind-numbing expanse--averages 2 or 3 ionized Hydrogen atoms per cubic meter.  It's so vast and so empty (compare that to Avogadro's number to figure out how many cubic meters of space you would have to travel to encounter a single Mole of Hydrogen!)  The universe is composed of 75% Hydrogen and 23% Helious; 1% Oxygen and .5% Carbon--Carbon--the stuff we're made of!  And every element in our sight was nucleosynthesized in the fusion furnaces of stars billions of years ago!  Surely, I reasoned, this painstaking preparation, this concentration of priceless, scarce matter is proof of painstaking preparation by a divine entity.  
 
And the argument, I figured, gains steam when considering complex creatures such as ourselves--an accident?  No, much more likely to have been engineered, intelligently created, strings pulled from a distance, gentle nudges here and there, right?
 
But there came a tipping point when I began to realize that it just wasn't necessary to employ some grand comsocrator in the sky to explain everything.  And after a while, the actions of a God began to look like interference in a cosmos that...just didn't need a Heavenly clockmaker anymore.
 
Most recently, I have stumbled onto some new work by a young physicist by the name of Jeremy England--he's an associate professor at MIT--that is really exciting.  It advances complexity--the study of how and why complex structures appear in the universe--by orders of magnitude.  It is especially relevant to the study biological evolution.  He argues that energy absorption in non-equilibrium thermodynamic systems is optimized by the constinuent components of that system.  Hence, molecules, for example, self-organize according to optimal energy absorption patterns.  This is true even for blacktop, sand, rock, or glass.  Mix in some organic ingredients and things get really interesting.  Slime on a pond will actually configure itself to maximize the absorption of energy from sunlight. Evolution herewith advances from '1 in a billion accident' to entire ecosystems proactively changing and evolving according to energy absorption potentials.  It is beginning to appear that given a few million sunny days and some organic goop, complex systems--life--can't help but appear.  
 
And when I ask myself the question, "Is it even pertinent to consider religious claims when contemplating the universe?" increasingly the answer seems to be no.  
 
 
 
 
 
  


   


Posted: 07 April 2016 08:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
eventhorizon
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Actually, blacktop is organic, but you know what I mean.
 


   


Posted: 07 April 2016 12:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Nice post! 
 
I really don't think it's even necessary to dig that deep to disprove the Judeo-Christian creation myths. The LDS church still maintains that the earth is 6,000 years old, and that there was no death before the fall of Adam.
 
At the Page Museum at the LaBrea Tar Pits in Los Angeles, one can see bones and skulls from mammals that are more than 6,000 years old. At the Royal Tyrrell Museum of Palaeontology in Drumheller, Alberta , they have actual reptilian fossils, millions of years old, many of which were found in the surrounding hills and coulees. This earth is billions of years old, not 6,000, and the animals, the dead animals in these museums, all died before the fall of Adam!
 
We know the process which turns organic matter into fossil fuels takes hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of years. All this from a 6,000 year old earth? Not even remotely possible!
 
Yes, I've heard the apologetic theory that this world was composed of spare parts from other worlds, that the oil and fossils and even mastodons were placed in the ground and ice by God, and that the earth is, indeed, 6,000 years old. My reply to that is according to mormonism, God created this world out of matter unorganized, and if he used bits and pieces from other worlds, it could not have been unorganized, plain and simple!
 
No, the 6,000 year old earth is nothing more than a myth, just as unlikely as a jolly fat man in a red suit coming down your chimney a few days after the winter's solstice.
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Posted: 07 April 2016 02:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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bradspencer74
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 "Is it even pertinent to consider religious claims when contemplating the universe?"
 
 
Well, my answer would be a definite no.  What is the very basis of science and the scientific method.  It is to take observable, measureable, quantifiable facts, use them to construct a hypothesis, test the hypothesis with an experiment that yiels obervable, measureable, data to see if your hypothesis was correct and to reach a conclusion.  It is also key that your experiment and its results are able to be replicated and confirmed by other scientists using the same methods.
 
The question is a simple one really - How can one test something such as God (or anything supernatural) using a method (science) that is limited to the observable, measurable, natural world?  The two are simply incompatable methods.  No one can ever answer does God exist - or does anything supernatural exist - with the scientific method.  There is no evidence to even form the idea of a test.
 
What is testable is IF or WHEN a claim is made that this or these transcendent entities interact with the natural world.  And when those things are tested, they answer is always the same - there is nothing there.  Take the studies of intersessory prayer.  They show that patients who believe and use intercessory prayer have equal to or slightly less healthful outcomes than those who do not.  Take the Word of Wisdom.  Studies show the benefits of drinking moderate amounts of coffee and wine, especially red wine.  Take the Book of Mormon.  Archeologists show absolutely no evidence that any of the peoples of the Book of Mormon ever existed.  Take the pronouncement of Spencer Kimball in the 1960s that Native American children were turning white as they accepted the Church.  Have not seen a single one yet.
 
So, what claims of religion are, in fact, testable and falsifiable when it comes to the origin and nature of the Universe?  What claims of Mormonism or any other religion yield themselves to scientific study?  There are extremely few, if any, that have any relevance. 
 
Religions often claim that they have answers to scientific questions, but do they?  
 
What does science do?  It takes observations, tests hypothesis, which lead to conclusions.
 
Religion does the opposite.  It takes conclusions, creates hypotheses from those conclusions and then find observations to fit their hypothesis.    It's backwards.  So, I find that I discount any religious appeal to science off the bat, as it always has a conclusion behind it driving the them - God did it.  How can one be an honest investigator of truth when one already has a conclusion which one has accepted as truth?
 
Edit - Just an observation about a comment you made.  Calling evolution 1 in a billion, etc.  
 
Religionist use the argument all the time.  But it is an appeal to ignorance.  How can one make such a generalization about the likelihood of evolution when the number of subjects you can study is - 1, the planet we live on.  We do not even have the technology available yet - or rather its available, but we have not done it yet - to locate planets the size of Earth.  We have no idea at all just how many are out there, but considering how many Gas Giants we have found, the number could be staggering.  Still a sample size of 1 is a paltry number to draw conclusions on in science.  Only when we have at least some observations of planets our size that could support life as we know it, THEN can we draw any conclusions about how unique or common or problable evolution (or what you really should be saying is abiogenesis, as evolution is a directly observed fact.)
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The Gym is my Church.  My sweat is my prayers.  My strength is my salvation.


   


Posted: 07 April 2016 03:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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I usually agree with bradspencer, but in this case I come to a different conclusion: sure, it's pertinent to ask what religion has to say about the cosmos. But it's pertinent only because of social reasons. From a physics/biology/cosmology perspective, religion has precious little to offer. But there are predictions that come from religion and they can and should be put to the test.
 
When I was a missionary in Central America the current apologist account for the Book of Mormon favored that region of the world: It happened in Mesoamerica! I thought that if this was the setting of the story, then the most ineluctable physical evidence would be from all the earthquakes, volcanoes, cities engulfed by the sea when Jesus was crucified: the claims of the Book of Mormon are huge and such evidence would certainly still be around. So I made it a point whenever I went to a museum or had access to objective information about geology of the region to notice if there was some blip of activity around the time of Jesus. My finding: nothing. The Book of Mormon account was not corroborated.
 
I personally think that such lack of expected evidence is important to note. I can't get God to pose for an MRI, but I can measure probabilities, ratings, correlations, and all sorts of indirect evidence that He (She, It, They) is as claimed. They're fine questions to ask. It's also telling that the only time the God hypothesis is not rejected is when we change "yes/no" into "yes/yes." What are the conditions that allow the God hypothesis to remain viable? Well, that is pretty informative.
 
One other thought: an also pertinent question to ask is what logic and science have to say about religion and its claims. One of my favorite quotes ever was when JBS Haldane was asked what his study of biology could teach us about the nature of the Creator. Although the response probably was honed over the years, he reportedly answered, "An inordinate fondness for beetles."


   


Posted: 07 April 2016 03:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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WinstonSmith
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eventhorizon,
 
I love your post!!!
 
It was this question, 10 years ago, that broke the spell and began my journey that freed me from the prison of religion. My answer to the question is found in my 'signature line'.
 
I really like how Richard Dawkins frames the scale (1-7) from theism to atheism. 1 = absolute belief in a supreme being and 7 = absolute athiesm. I rate myself a 6 on this scale and lose no sleep over it.
 
I am at peace with my moral compass, and in the event a god does exist, it would take a 'pure evil' act by that god to turn me away from her/his presence.
 
In the meantime I will not trouble myself to prove or disprove god. My mission is to live a fulfilling life---and life has become so much more fulfilling since the shackles of the Mormon Church have been removed.   
 Signature
“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”  -Marcus Aurelius


   


Posted: 07 April 2016 06:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Winyan
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I don't know about religion, but I think spirituality has a place in the world. Faith can be powerful. It can be healing. There have been studies about the effect of prayer and how thoughts are energy. Positive thinking can overcome a lot of problems.
 
There are things that science can't explain, and we're constantly revising our information and understanding. 


   


Posted: 08 April 2016 04:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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bradspencer74
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Celestial Wedgie:
I usually agree with bradspencer, but in this case I come to a different conclusion: sure, it's pertinent to ask what religion has to say about the cosmos. But it's pertinent only because of social reasons. From a physics/biology/cosmology perspective, religion has precious little to offer. But there are predictions that come from religion and they can and should be put to the test.
 
When I was a missionary in Central America the current apologist account for the Book of Mormon favored that region of the world: It happened in Mesoamerica! I thought that if this was the setting of the story, then the most ineluctable physical evidence would be from all the earthquakes, volcanoes, cities engulfed by the sea when Jesus was crucified: the claims of the Book of Mormon are huge and such evidence would certainly still be around. So I made it a point whenever I went to a museum or had access to objective information about geology of the region to notice if there was some blip of activity around the time of Jesus. My finding: nothing. The Book of Mormon account was not corroborated.
 
I personally think that such lack of expected evidence is important to note. I can't get God to pose for an MRI, but I can measure probabilities, ratings, correlations, and all sorts of indirect evidence that He (She, It, They) is as claimed. They're fine questions to ask. It's also telling that the only time the God hypothesis is not rejected is when we change "yes/no" into "yes/yes." What are the conditions that allow the God hypothesis to remain viable? Well, that is pretty informative.
 
One other thought: an also pertinent question to ask is what logic and science have to say about religion and its claims. One of my favorite quotes ever was when JBS Haldane was asked what his study of biology could teach us about the nature of the Creator. Although the response probably was honed over the years, he reportedly answered, "An inordinate fondness for beetles."
 
 CW - I think we agree more than disagree here.  I was expressing the view that religion can tell us little if nothing concerning the so-called "hard sciences."  But, I think the study of religion itself in a sociological/anthropological/psychological perspective can be intensely valuable.  Those latter types of studies show us just how religion plays on instinctual fears, harms mental health, drives factors in civilization.  The scientific study of religion in history is a MUST HAVE.
 
I was thinking of the cosmos in terms of hard sciences.  By their very definition, it is impossible to use naturalistic means (science) to explore any claims of a supernatural nature.  For example, science cannot answer the question "Does God exist?" as there is no evidence at all upon which to formulate something falsifiable to test.  BUT - what we can do is test those places where those supernatural events are supposed to interact with the natural world.
 
Your Book of Mormon example is a great one.  The BOM claims all sorts of natural calameties, deaths by the millions in battles, great civilizations, etc.  Those are things we CAN test, and the absolute lack of evidence of those happenings does tell us something about the verasity of the Book of Mormon.  For instance, we cannot test the proposition that a resurrected Jesus Christ appeared in Zarahelma and healed the sick, etc.  BUT - we can test for Zarahemla itself - did such a place ever exist.  If it did not, then the BOM claim that Jesus appeared in Zarahelma is necessarily a false one.
 
We can test to see if the astronomy in the Book of Abraham has any basis in fact - and it is shown to be a load of BS.  Same with Joseph Smith's supposed interpretations of the BOA hypocephalus.  Those results then can cast doubt on the "supposed" supernatual origins of the thing.
 
We can also test if Joseph Smith (and the rest of them) pronouncements hold up to the scrutiny of science and sociological/historical study.  For instance, we can show that Joseph Smith related varying accounts of the first vision, had plural wives when he claimed he had none, ordered provocative incidents in Missouri when he claimed the LDS people had done nothing wrong, etc.  While those studies do not prove or disprove Joseph's Smith's claims to be touched by the supernatural (i.e. Did the First Vision really happen, was Moroni real, were the plates real), what they can do is show us his veracity in other areas.  When he show how often he lied in areas we can test, it should reflect in our judgement of the rest of his pronouncements.
 
It's no different than the bible really.  We cannot use science to test to see if "El" or "Jehovah" etc exist as Gods.  But we can test where those entities are said to interact with the natural world.  And so far, there is not one shred of evidence that any of those interactions ever took place.  If those interactions are indeed unproven or even disproven, then that casts doubts on the propositions we cannot directly test.
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“Fitness is my religion and the gym is my temple” Fitness God 3:16
The Gym is my Church.  My sweat is my prayers.  My strength is my salvation.


   


Posted: 08 April 2016 05:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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Winyan:
I don't know about religion, but I think spirituality has a place in the world. Faith can be powerful. It can be healing. There have been studies about the effect of prayer and how thoughts are energy. Positive thinking can overcome a lot of problems.
 
There are things that science can't explain, and we're constantly revising our information and understanding. 
 
I agree with this for the most part. I choose not to use terms like prayer or spiritual personally, as they are religiously charged words and I find if I use them, people assume I'm talking about religion.
 
The first time I had a personally enlightening experience completely outside any religious context was a real eye opener for me. The deep recesses of my formerly mormon mind were trying to frame it for me, but I resisted and let it happen. I realized then that religion's job is to co-opt these experiences and sell them back to the believers as evidence of their dogma.
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Posted: 08 April 2016 08:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
eventhorizon
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Matter Unorganized:
Nice post! 
 
I really don't think it's even necessary to dig that deep to disprove the Judeo-Christian creation myths. The LDS church still maintains that the earth is 6,000 years old, and that there was no death before the fall of Adam.
 
...
 
Yes, I've heard the apologetic theory that this world was composed of spare parts from other worlds, that the oil and fossils and even mastodons were placed in the ground and ice by God, and that the earth is, indeed, 6,000 years old. My reply to that is according to mormonism, God created this world out of matter unorganized, and if he used bits and pieces from other worlds, it could not have been unorganized, plain and simple!
 
No, the 6,000 year old earth is nothing more than a myth, just as unlikely as a jolly fat man in a red suit coming down your chimney a few days after the winter's solstice.
 
 Excellent discussion.  
 
I've always been somewhat reassured by the discussions I've had with other members regarding evolution and the age of the earth; namely, that the church doesn't dogmatically insist that the earth is only 6,000 years old. Even Brigham Young said, I
 
"In these respects we differ from the Christian world, for our religion will not clash with or contradict the facts of science in any particular...whether the Lord found the earth empty and void, whether he made it out of nothing or out of the rude elements; or whether he made it in six days or in as many millions of years, is and will remain a matter of speculation in the minds of men unless he give revelation on the subject. If we understood the process of creation there would be no mystery about it, it would be all reasonable and plain, for there is no mystery except to the ignorant."
 
I know that a few decades ago James Talmage (pro) and Joseph F. Smith (con) had a big knock-down drag-out fight about evolution until the first presidency clarified that the church doesn't have an official position on the subject.  They clarified that "death before Adamites is a matter for speculation; the Lord has not revealed the age of the earth and it isn't important for us to know."
 
I took some vertebrate paleontology at BYU an my professors all openly taught evolution (but with that burdensome and unnecessary "intelligent design" caveat).  
 
All this said--science seems to get along quite comfortably without anyone twirling the dials.   


   


Posted: 08 April 2016 08:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
eventhorizon
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bradspencer:
 "Is it even pertinent to consider religious claims when contemplating the universe?"
 
 
Well, my answer would be a definite no.  What is the very basis of science and the scientific method.  It is to take observable, measureable, quantifiable facts, use them to construct a hypothesis, test the hypothesis with an experiment that yiels obervable, measureable, data to see if your hypothesis was correct and to reach a conclusion.  It is also key that your experiment and its results are able to be replicated and confirmed by other scientists using the same methods.
 
The question is a simple one really - How can one test something such as God (or anything supernatural) using a method (science) that is limited to the observable, measurable, natural world?  The two are simply incompatable methods.  No one can ever answer does God exist - or does anything supernatural exist - with the scientific method.  There is no evidence to even form the idea of a test.
 
What is testable is IF or WHEN a claim is made that this or these transcendent entities interact with the natural world.  And when those things are tested, they answer is always the same - there is nothing there.  Take the studies of intersessory prayer.  They show that patients who believe and use intercessory prayer have equal to or slightly less healthful outcomes than those who do not.  Take the Word of Wisdom.  Studies show the benefits of drinking moderate amounts of coffee and wine, especially red wine.  Take the Book of Mormon.  Archeologists show absolutely no evidence that any of the peoples of the Book of Mormon ever existed.  Take the pronouncement of Spencer Kimball in the 1960s that Native American children were turning white as they accepted the Church.  Have not seen a single one yet.
 
So, what claims of religion are, in fact, testable and falsifiable when it comes to the origin and nature of the Universe?  What claims of Mormonism or any other religion yield themselves to scientific study?  There are extremely few, if any, that have any relevance. 
 
Religions often claim that they have answers to scientific questions, but do they?  
 
What does science do?  It takes observations, tests hypothesis, which lead to conclusions.
 
Religion does the opposite.  It takes conclusions, creates hypotheses from those conclusions and then find observations to fit their hypothesis.    It's backwards.  So, I find that I discount any religious appeal to science off the bat, as it always has a conclusion behind it driving the them - God did it.  How can one be an honest investigator of truth when one already has a conclusion which one has accepted as truth?
 
Edit - Just an observation about a comment you made.  Calling evolution 1 in a billion, etc.  
 
Religionist use the argument all the time.  But it is an appeal to ignorance.  How can one make such a generalization about the likelihood of evolution when the number of subjects you can study is - 1, the planet we live on.  We do not even have the technology available yet - or rather its available, but we have not done it yet - to locate planets the size of Earth.  We have no idea at all just how many are out there, but considering how many Gas Giants we have found, the number could be staggering.  Still a sample size of 1 is a paltry number to draw conclusions on in science.  Only when we have at least some observations of planets our size that could support life as we know it, THEN can we draw any conclusions about how unique or common or problable evolution (or what you really should be saying is abiogenesis, as evolution is a directly observed fact.)
 In so many words, Brad, I agree completely with your post.
 
One clarification--when I mentioned '1 in a billion' I was referring to organisms within an ecosystem, not worlds.  But same diff, and your point is well taken.
 
Thanks for the insight! 
 


   


Posted: 08 April 2016 09:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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Celestial Wedgie
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bradspencer:
CW - I think we agree more than disagree here.  I was expressing the view that religion can tell us little if nothing concerning the so-called "hard sciences."  But, I think the study of religion itself in a sociological/anthropological/psychological perspective can be intensely valuable.  Those latter types of studies show us just how religion plays on instinctual fears, harms mental health, drives factors in civilization.  The scientific study of religion in history is a MUST HAVE...
 
[snip]
Yes, we're on the same page here. 


   


Posted: 08 April 2016 10:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
eventhorizon
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Winyan:
I don't know about religion, but I think spirituality has a place in the world. Faith can be powerful. It can be healing. There have been studies about the effect of prayer and how thoughts are energy. Positive thinking can overcome a lot of problems.
 
There are things that science can't explain, and we're constantly revising our information and understanding. 
 
 Winyan,
 
First of all, the penguins are great!
 
Would you mind expanding a bit on what you mean by spirituality?  The only context I've ever used that term was a religious one.  Do you still mean it in that context--just not an LDS framework, or do you mean it in an entirely different sense? 
 
I'd like to hear your ideas, if you don't mind sharing.
 


   


Posted: 08 April 2016 11:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
eventhorizon
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WinstonSmith:
eventhorizon,
 
I love your post!!!
 
It was this question, 10 years ago, that broke the spell and began my journey that freed me from the prison of religion. My answer to the question is found in my 'signature line'.
 
I really like how Richard Dawkins frames the scale (1-7) from theism to atheism. 1 = absolute belief in a supreme being and 7 = absolute athiesm. I rate myself a 6 on this scale and lose no sleep over it.
 
I am at peace with my moral compass, and in the event a god does exist, it would take a 'pure evil' act by that god to turn me away from her/his presence.
 
In the meantime I will not trouble myself to prove or disprove god. My mission is to live a fulfilling life---and life has become so much more fulfilling since the shackles of the Mormon Church have been removed.   
 I've meant to compliment you on your signature line, by the way: Meditations is one of my favorite books (one of few that I keep three or four copies laying around so I can give them to friends).
 
Your attitude seems healthy to me.  Would you mind sharing what you consider to have been the biggest shackle(s) to have been removed when you disassociated yourself from the church?  In what ways, if you don't mind me asking, has your life become more fulfilling?
 


   


Posted: 09 April 2016 04:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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WinstonSmith
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eventhorizon:
WinstonSmith:
eventhorizon,
 
I love your post!!!
 
It was this question, 10 years ago, that broke the spell and began my journey that freed me from the prison of religion. My answer to the question is found in my 'signature line'.
 
I really like how Richard Dawkins frames the scale (1-7) from theism to atheism. 1 = absolute belief in a supreme being and 7 = absolute athiesm. I rate myself a 6 on this scale and lose no sleep over it.
 
I am at peace with my moral compass, and in the event a god does exist, it would take a 'pure evil' act by that god to turn me away from her/his presence.
 
In the meantime I will not trouble myself to prove or disprove god. My mission is to live a fulfilling life---and life has become so much more fulfilling since the shackles of the Mormon Church have been removed.   
 I've meant to compliment you on your signature line, by the way: Meditations is one of my favorite books (one of few that I keep three or four copies laying around so I can give them to friends).
 
Your attitude seems healthy to me.  Would you mind sharing what you consider to have been the biggest shackle(s) to have been removed when you disassociated yourself from the church?  In what ways, if you don't mind me asking, has your life become more fulfilling?
 
Fair enough, however I have always found it hard to communicate this in words.
 
A little backstory: Several years ago I sat in the pews of our lds chapel pondering what one might call "God's Business Model". Specifically, I was thinking about the whole concept of punishment and reward predicated on behavior. In my mind there was something 'off' about this concept. "Should someone be compelled to 'do what is right' out of the self-interest of reward?" "Was life nothing more than a series of business transactions, where individuals acted on a belief and hope for a lucrative 'return on investment'' which would be rewarded in another life?" "Shouldn't one do good simply because it is the right thing to do, without expectation of reward?"
 
I made a decision that day: My actions would not consider the possibility of reward or punishment in another life by a god, but rather I would do good or the right thing for no other reason then it is the right thing to do.
 
It turned out that this was the last day I needed god in my life and my disassociation "intellectully" with the church began. The "shackles" came off and my mind now belongs to me. A weight that I carried my entire life evaporated.
 
The church teaches and allows one to feel limited emotions, "Happy, Sad and Fear". The human experience and range of emotions that one is capable is so much more then the lds church allows.
 
My mind is liberated!!! I think for myself and feel no inclination for validation by sourcing conference talks. 
 
I have developed meaningful relationships with people outside of Mormonism---this was something I could never do prior due to 'seeded fear' that outside influence would jepordize my accumulation of eternal wealth.
 
I have become an emotional person---feeling a range of emotion that I was incapable "living under the influence" of the Mormon religion. Some of these emotions are hard and not pleasant, but I am so glad they have become part of my human experience.
 
I have concluded that the only "perfection" possible is "imperfection" (we are all perfect at being imperfect).  I have discovered the beauty in imperfection, and it is a marvelous wonder. I no longer see and think in terms of dings and dents, but rather I see dings and dents and wonder the story behind the distress.
 
Is my moral code the same as the lds church? No!!! Anyone can put a label on an act and call it sin? Example: Drinking Coffee, Drinking Beer, Posting Truth on FB that shows JS a Fraud. I happen to label the lds church's policy, dogma and propoganda regarding the LGBT community as sin, it is inexcusable and the morality of the Q15 is worthy of their Telestial Kingdom.
 
The "shackles" imprisioned me intellectially and emotionally. The intellectual and emotional freedom I now enjoy is at the foundation of my fulfillment.
 
WS 
 
 
 Signature
“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”  -Marcus Aurelius


   


Posted: 09 April 2016 08:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
Avatar
bradspencer74
Long Timer
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Joined  2010-01-18
 
  
 
WinstonSmith:
eventhorizon:
WinstonSmith:
eventhorizon,
 
I love your post!!!
 
It was this question, 10 years ago, that broke the spell and began my journey that freed me from the prison of religion. My answer to the question is found in my 'signature line'.
 
I really like how Richard Dawkins frames the scale (1-7) from theism to atheism. 1 = absolute belief in a supreme being and 7 = absolute athiesm. I rate myself a 6 on this scale and lose no sleep over it.
 
I am at peace with my moral compass, and in the event a god does exist, it would take a 'pure evil' act by that god to turn me away from her/his presence.
 
In the meantime I will not trouble myself to prove or disprove god. My mission is to live a fulfilling life---and life has become so much more fulfilling since the shackles of the Mormon Church have been removed.   
 I've meant to compliment you on your signature line, by the way: Meditations is one of my favorite books (one of few that I keep three or four copies laying around so I can give them to friends).
 
Your attitude seems healthy to me.  Would you mind sharing what you consider to have been the biggest shackle(s) to have been removed when you disassociated yourself from the church?  In what ways, if you don't mind me asking, has your life become more fulfilling?
 
Fair enough, however I have always found it hard to communicate this in words.
 
A little backstory: Several years ago I sat in the pews of our lds chapel pondering what one might call "God's Business Model". Specifically, I was thinking about the whole concept of punishment and reward predicated on behavior. In my mind there was something 'off' about this concept. "Should someone be compelled to 'do what is right' out of the self-interest of reward?" "Was life nothing more than a series of business transactions, where individuals acted on a belief and hope for a lucrative 'return on investment'' which would be rewarded in another life?" "Shouldn't one do good simply because it is the right thing to do, without expectation of reward?"
 
I made a decision that day: My actions would not consider the possibility of reward or punishment in another life by a god, but rather I would do good or the right thing for no other reason then it is the right thing to do.
 
It turned out that this was the last day I needed god in my life and my disassociation "intellectully" with the church began. The "shackles" came off and my mind now belongs to me. A weight that I carried my entire life evaporated.
 
The church teaches and allows one to feel limited emotions, "Happy, Sad and Fear". The human experience and range of emotions that one is capable is so much more then the lds church allows.
 
My mind is liberated!!! I think for myself and feel no inclination for validation by sourcing conference talks. 
 
I have developed meaningful relationships with people outside of Mormonism---this was something I could never do prior due to 'seeded fear' that outside influence would jepordize my accumulation of eternal wealth.
 
I have become an emotional person---feeling a range of emotion that I was incapable "living under the influence" of the Mormon religion. Some of these emotions are hard and not pleasant, but I am so glad they have become part of my human experience.
 
I have concluded that the only "perfection" possible is "imperfection" (we are all perfect at being imperfect).  I have discovered the beauty in imperfection, and it is a marvelous wonder. I no longer see and think in terms of dings and dents, but rather I see dings and dents and wonder the story behind the distress.
 
Is my moral code the same as the lds church? No!!! Anyone can put a label on an act and call it sin? Example: Drinking Coffee, Drinking Beer, Posting Truth on FB that shows JS a Fraud. I happen to label the lds church's policy, dogma and propoganda regarding the LGBT community as sin, it is inexcusable and the morality of the Q15 is worthy of their Telestial Kingdom.
 
The "shackles" imprisioned me intellectially and emotionally. The intellectual and emotional freedom I now enjoy is at the foundation of my fulfillment.
 
WS 
 
 
 
Winston
 
Reading that meant a lot.  It took me a VERY long time to separate myself from the so-called "moral code" of the Church (I have since learned that it is not a moral code at all - it is just a list of moral pronouncements that does not allow anyone to have a moral code of any sort.)
 
It's pretty obvious how my life improved when I finally broke the shackles of the Church and came to terms with my sexuality.  I stopped eating myself to death and became, as my psychiatrist said, the man that I was always meant to be, outside as well as inside.  I stopped hating myself.  I can't really express with words how liberating it is to actually THINK for yourself.
 
My question about "sin" was something like yours.  I wondered how it was just to be damned for eternity for sins committed in this life.  How are finite "crimes" worthy of an "infinite" punishment.  I knew that certain persons in the past in the Church tries to solve this issue with the theory of progression between kingdoms.  But still - why would it be meritorious of "lesser degrees" of glory just because you did not get married.  Even IF I lived exactly as the Church said I should, that I would still be just as damned as if I were myself?  There was no way to win.  When you feel that sort of trapped, it becomes very easy to ne a nihlist.  (and that feeling of being literally damned if you do and damned if you don't is a big reason why I think there is the rash of LGBT suicides in the Church.)
 
At any rate, even years after being out, I could not truly let go of the indoctination of the moral pronouncement that it had been better if I had never been born, that I was worse than Cain, that my sin was an affront to the purpose of the Universe, etc.  In the end, I owe my freedom to a little girl watching me eat in a restaurant one August day in 2006.  It was at at that moment - almost 7 years after I had left the Church, that I was truly freed of the shackles they had placed on me all my life. 
 Signature
“Fitness is my religion and the gym is my temple” Fitness God 3:16
The Gym is my Church.  My sweat is my prayers.  My strength is my salvation.


   


Posted: 09 April 2016 09:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
eventhorizon
Jr. Member
RankRank
Joined  2016-04-01
 
  
 
bradspencer:
WinstonSmith:
eventhorizon:
WinstonSmith:
eventhorizon,
 
I love your post!!!
 
It was this question, 10 years ago, that broke the spell and began my journey that freed me from the prison of religion. My answer to the question is found in my 'signature line'.
 
I really like how Richard Dawkins frames the scale (1-7) from theism to atheism. 1 = absolute belief in a supreme being and 7 = absolute athiesm. I rate myself a 6 on this scale and lose no sleep over it.
 
I am at peace with my moral compass, and in the event a god does exist, it would take a 'pure evil' act by that god to turn me away from her/his presence.
 
In the meantime I will not trouble myself to prove or disprove god. My mission is to live a fulfilling life---and life has become so much more fulfilling since the shackles of the Mormon Church have been removed.   
 I've meant to compliment you on your signature line, by the way: Meditations is one of my favorite books (one of few that I keep three or four copies laying around so I can give them to friends).
 
Your attitude seems healthy to me.  Would you mind sharing what you consider to have been the biggest shackle(s) to have been removed when you disassociated yourself from the church?  In what ways, if you don't mind me asking, has your life become more fulfilling?
 
Fair enough, however I have always found it hard to communicate this in words.
 
A little backstory: Several years ago I sat in the pews of our lds chapel pondering what one might call "God's Business Model". Specifically, I was thinking about the whole concept of punishment and reward predicated on behavior. In my mind there was something 'off' about this concept. "Should someone be compelled to 'do what is right' out of the self-interest of reward?" "Was life nothing more than a series of business transactions, where individuals acted on a belief and hope for a lucrative 'return on investment'' which would be rewarded in another life?" "Shouldn't one do good simply because it is the right thing to do, without expectation of reward?"
 
I made a decision that day: My actions would not consider the possibility of reward or punishment in another life by a god, but rather I would do good or the right thing for no other reason then it is the right thing to do.
 
It turned out that this was the last day I needed god in my life and my disassociation "intellectully" with the church began. The "shackles" came off and my mind now belongs to me. A weight that I carried my entire life evaporated.
 
The church teaches and allows one to feel limited emotions, "Happy, Sad and Fear". The human experience and range of emotions that one is capable is so much more then the lds church allows.
 
My mind is liberated!!! I think for myself and feel no inclination for validation by sourcing conference talks. 
 
I have developed meaningful relationships with people outside of Mormonism---this was something I could never do prior due to 'seeded fear' that outside influence would jepordize my accumulation of eternal wealth.
 
I have become an emotional person---feeling a range of emotion that I was incapable "living under the influence" of the Mormon religion. Some of these emotions are hard and not pleasant, but I am so glad they have become part of my human experience.
 
I have concluded that the only "perfection" possible is "imperfection" (we are all perfect at being imperfect).  I have discovered the beauty in imperfection, and it is a marvelous wonder. I no longer see and think in terms of dings and dents, but rather I see dings and dents and wonder the story behind the distress.
 
Is my moral code the same as the lds church? No!!! Anyone can put a label on an act and call it sin? Example: Drinking Coffee, Drinking Beer, Posting Truth on FB that shows JS a Fraud. I happen to label the lds church's policy, dogma and propoganda regarding the LGBT community as sin, it is inexcusable and the morality of the Q15 is worthy of their Telestial Kingdom.
 
The "shackles" imprisioned me intellectially and emotionally. The intellectual and emotional freedom I now enjoy is at the foundation of my fulfillment.
 
WS 
 
 
 
Winston
 
Reading that meant a lot.  It took me a VERY long time to separate myself from the so-called "moral code" of the Church (I have since learned that it is not a moral code at all - it is just a list of moral pronouncements that does not allow anyone to have a moral code of any sort.)
 
It's pretty obvious how my life improved when I finally broke the shackles of the Church and came to terms with my sexuality.  I stopped eating myself to death and became, as my psychiatrist said, the man that I was always meant to be, outside as well as inside.  I stopped hating myself.  I can't really express with words how liberating it is to actually THINK for yourself.
 
My question about "sin" was something like yours.  I wondered how it was just to be damned for eternity for sins committed in this life.  How are finite "crimes" worthy of an "infinite" punishment.  I knew that certain persons in the past in the Church tries to solve this issue with the theory of progression between kingdoms.  But still - why would it be meritorious of "lesser degrees" of glory just because you did not get married.  Even IF I lived exactly as the Church said I should, that I would still be just as damned as if I were myself?  There was no way to win.  When you feel that sort of trapped, it becomes very easy to ne a nihlist.  (and that feeling of being literally damned if you do and damned if you don't is a big reason why I think there is the rash of LGBT suicides in the Church.)
 
At any rate, even years after being out, I could not truly let go of the indoctination of the moral pronouncement that it had been better if I had never been born, that I was worse than Cain, that my sin was an affront to the purpose of the Universe, etc.  In the end, I owe my freedom to a little girl watching me eat in a restaurant one August day in 2006.  It was at at that moment - almost 7 years after I had left the Church, that I was truly freed of the shackles they had placed on me all my life. 
 
 Winston and Brad--
 
Thank you very much for your posts.  
 
Shackles are all around us, and we (I) am often not even aware of them.  When I first started traveling to other countries regularly I began to look at Americans through foreign eyes and gained a much deeper understanding of my own country.  Likewise, nothing helps us to understand our own native language like learning other languages and seeing it from the perspectives thus afforded.
 
Our school system, social mores, traditions, upbringing and, of greatest pertinence, our religious training are all potential shackles and channels for strait-jacketed thinking. 
 
As I read both of your posts, I felt a...kinship.  I'm not as far along as you are, but I do understand that I am shackled by a lifetime of indoctrination, even though it may not always feel exactly like shackles.  It is limiting my thinking and my ability to make unfettered decisions.
 
Thank you both for sharing your experiences and opinions. 


   


Posted: 10 April 2016 05:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
Avatar
Winyan
Long Timer
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Joined  2007-10-31
 
  
 
eventhorizon:
Winyan:
I don't know about religion, but I think spirituality has a place in the world. Faith can be powerful. It can be healing. There have been studies about the effect of prayer and how thoughts are energy. Positive thinking can overcome a lot of problems.
 
There are things that science can't explain, and we're constantly revising our information and understanding. 
 
 Winyan,
 
First of all, the penguins are great!
 
Would you mind expanding a bit on what you mean by spirituality?  The only context I've ever used that term was a religious one.  Do you still mean it in that context--just not an LDS framework, or do you mean it in an entirely different sense? 
 
I'd like to hear your ideas, if you don't mind sharing.
 
 
 Thanks.
 
I'll try, but I'm not sure I can put it into words very well. To me, spirituality is a sense of some higher consciousness or energy, call it God or whatever, at work in the universe. I feel that because of my own experiences. It's also a choice of living with awareness and desire for the well being of humanity, the earth, animals, etc.
 
The Dalai Lama said kindness is the true religion. And Christ taught tolerance and love and compassion. To me that's spirituality.


   


Posted: 10 April 2016 05:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
Avatar
Winyan
Long Timer
RankRankRankRankRank
Joined  2007-10-31
 
  
 
Matter Unorganized:
Winyan:
I don't know about religion, but I think spirituality has a place in the world. Faith can be powerful. It can be healing. There have been studies about the effect of prayer and how thoughts are energy. Positive thinking can overcome a lot of problems.
 
There are things that science can't explain, and we're constantly revising our information and understanding. 
 
I agree with this for the most part. I choose not to use terms like prayer or spiritual personally, as they are religiously charged words and I find if I use them, people assume I'm talking about religion.
 
The first time I had a personally enlightening experience completely outside any religious context was a real eye opener for me. The deep recesses of my formerly mormon mind were trying to frame it for me, but I resisted and let it happen. I realized then that religion's job is to co-opt these experiences and sell them back to the believers as evidence of their dogma.
 
 Enlightening is a good word for it. And it is personal. I have to believe it comes from a higher consciousness than ours. But I don't believe it has anything to do with religion, or churches.


   


Posted: 10 April 2016 06:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]   

   
 
Avatar
Winyan
Long Timer
RankRankRankRankRank
Joined  2007-10-31
 
  
 
WinstonSmith:
eventhorizon:
WinstonSmith:
eventhorizon,
 
I love your post!!!
 
It was this question, 10 years ago, that broke the spell and began my journey that freed me from the prison of religion. My answer to the question is found in my 'signature line'.
 
I really like how Richard Dawkins frames the scale (1-7) from theism to atheism. 1 = absolute belief in a supreme being and 7 = absolute athiesm. I rate myself a 6 on this scale and lose no sleep over it.
 
I am at peace with my moral compass, and in the event a god does exist, it would take a 'pure evil' act by that god to turn me away from her/his presence.
 
In the meantime I will not trouble myself to prove or disprove god. My mission is to live a fulfilling life---and life has become so much more fulfilling since the shackles of the Mormon Church have been removed.   
 I've meant to compliment you on your signature line, by the way: Meditations is one of my favorite books (one of few that I keep three or four copies laying around so I can give them to friends).
 
Your attitude seems healthy to me.  Would you mind sharing what you consider to have been the biggest shackle(s) to have been removed when you disassociated yourself from the church?  In what ways, if you don't mind me asking, has your life become more fulfilling?
 
Fair enough, however I have always found it hard to communicate this in words.
 
A little backstory: Several years ago I sat in the pews of our lds chapel pondering what one might call "God's Business Model". Specifically, I was thinking about the whole concept of punishment and reward predicated on behavior. In my mind there was something 'off' about this concept. "Should someone be compelled to 'do what is right' out of the self-interest of reward?" "Was life nothing more than a series of business transactions, where individuals acted on a belief and hope for a lucrative 'return on investment'' which would be rewarded in another life?" "Shouldn't one do good simply because it is the right thing to do, without expectation of reward?"
 
I made a decision that day: My actions would not consider the possibility of reward or punishment in another life by a god, but rather I would do good or the right thing for no other reason then it is the right thing to do.
 
It turned out that this was the last day I needed god in my life and my disassociation "intellectully" with the church began. The "shackles" came off and my mind now belongs to me. A weight that I carried my entire life evaporated.
 
The church teaches and allows one to feel limited emotions, "Happy, Sad and Fear". The human experience and range of emotions that one is capable is so much more then the lds church allows.
 
My mind is liberated!!! I think for myself and feel no inclination for validation by sourcing conference talks. 
 
I have developed meaningful relationships with people outside of Mormonism---this was something I could never do prior due to 'seeded fear' that outside influence would jepordize my accumulation of eternal wealth.
 
I have become an emotional person---feeling a range of emotion that I was incapable "living under the influence" of the Mormon religion. Some of these emotions are hard and not pleasant, but I am so glad they have become part of my human experience.
 
I have concluded that the only "perfection" possible is "imperfection" (we are all perfect at being imperfect).  I have discovered the beauty in imperfection, and it is a marvelous wonder. I no longer see and think in terms of dings and dents, but rather I see dings and dents and wonder the story behind the distress.
 
Is my moral code the same as the lds church? No!!! Anyone can put a label on an act and call it sin? Example: Drinking Coffee, Drinking Beer, Posting Truth on FB that shows JS a Fraud. I happen to label the lds church's policy, dogma and propoganda regarding the LGBT community as sin, it is inexcusable and the morality of the Q15 is worthy of their Telestial Kingdom.
 
The "shackles" imprisioned me intellectially and emotionally. The intellectual and emotional freedom I now enjoy is at the foundation of my fulfillment.
 
WS 
 
 
 
 This is how religion has screwed up peoples' perception of God. And I think why so many people stop believing in a God when they realize how screwed up their church is.
 
I really like the conclusion you came to about doing good things just because it's the right thing to do and not for some reward. 


   


Posted: 10 April 2016 08:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]   

   
 
Avatar
Tapir buster
Newbie
Rank
Joined  2016-04-09
 
  
 
I'm new here, but I've been out of Mormonism for a few years and know all the dirty laundry. Although every once in a while I find another mind-blowing tidbit. But I am totally at peace with it, so I think I can respond objectively.
 
Does the LDS faith have a place in the rational world? Strictly speaking, the emotional blackmail and self-sabotaging techniques that the church employs don't belong in any world. But if you separate that out and keep the simple faith in Christ, perhaps for some people it fills a role. If your preferred method of self destruction is more efficient than the church's method, you are better off in the church. Or depending on how Zen you are, maybe destruction of the "self" is the point, and a trip through Mormonland was just what you needed. That would explain why you were born into it. But I digress.
 
The problem the world faces is that everything is dogma, including most of science. Thoughts about thoughts about thoughts. Science has the common decency to take those thoughts to the lab and admit when it's wrong. Unfortunately, you still have the thoughts about thoughts thing so there is a lot of scientific dogma. It hasn't fully stepped up to the plate. If the scientific world can have its dogma, and refuse to entertain (for example) rigorous parapsychology research then religion is entitled to its dogma. The way I see it, science can but won't fill the hole so the role of filling that hole falls to religion. Science won't touch the question of the power of the name of Christ with a ten-foot pole, no matter how much evidence is in favor of it. Not that it couldn't. The phenomena of the hive mind, resonance of hearts, all those things that are taboo for no good reason could be researched and understood. But the power of dogma forbids it.
 
The pot can call the kettle black all it wants, but this serves a purpose. Religions like LDS, as bad as they are, serve to illustrate that being nice is more important than being right. Being nice is all they have because they're not actually right about anything.
 
And come to think of it, some of them aren't very nice either. But some are. 


   


Posted: 10 April 2016 09:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]   

   
 
Avatar
Elder OldDog
Moderator
RankRankRankRankRank
Joined  2009-07-30
 
  
 
In the contest of Science v. Religion, Religion is playing way out of its weight!  But because it's hopped up on 'shrooms, and other assorted oddities, it isn't feeling any pain. 
 
But no one is paying any attention to the judges, so while they have Science way ahead on points, the fans in the cheap seats, drunk on faith, keep cheering Religion on.  Science fans left the arena long ago to go get some sleep, because tomorrow is going to be a busy day, and maybe we'll all knock off early and go the driving range!
 
 
 Signature


   


Posted: 11 April 2016 12:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]   

   
 
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Celestial Wedgie
Long Timer
RankRankRankRankRank
Joined  2010-10-03
 
  
 
Elder OldDog:
In the contest of Science v. Religion, Religion is playing way out of its weight!  But because it's hopped up on 'shrooms, and other assorted oddities, it isn't feeling any pain. 
 
But no one is paying any attention to the judges, so while they have Science way ahead on points, the fans in the cheap seats, drunk on faith, keep cheering Religion on.  Science fans left the arena long ago to go get some sleep, because tomorrow is going to be a busy day, and maybe we'll all knock off early and go the driving range!
 
    
 
Years ago someone here--I can't recall who it was--posted a question that puts into perspective the matter of the relative utility of religion versus science. I'm going to repost it in a revised form.
 
What used to be best explained by religion that is now better explained by science?

What used to be best explained by science that is now better explained by religion?
 
THAT difference encapsulates how the battle is trending.
 


   


            
 
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You can leave the church, but the church won’t leave you alone: Targeted Assaults!  
Posted: 11 April 2016 07:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized
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Well! This could be coincidence, but consider the following:
 
 
Saturday morning, a young returned missionary shows up at my door to invite DS (who has not attended church in almost 2 years) to go with him to a YSA fireside featuring Todd Christofferson. 
Sunday morning, some drone from the high priests group invites me to go to priesthood meeting with him. (I declined)
Sunday afternoon someone from the ward shows up with dessert! We are not ill or in need, this was just random.
 
 
 So we were targeted 3 times within just over 24 hours. Coincidence?
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Posted: 11 April 2016 09:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Winyan
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It sounds like you were next on the 'lost sheep' list that they discuss in auxiliary meetings. Or is it ward council... I can't remember now.  But I know they have a list, and people from different auxiliaries are assigned to try to get you to come back. 

   


Posted: 11 April 2016 11:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
leftasteen
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Do you feel loved and cared about?   Or do you feel a need to protect your wallet?
 
The Lord really just wants your debit card number.   


   


Posted: 11 April 2016 11:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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leftasteen:
Do you feel loved and cared about?   Or do you feel a need to protect your wallet?
 
The Lord really just wants your debit card number.   
 
  I love this!  
 
MU, obviously the Spirit of Fellowship has moved (mysteriously) upon the face of the neighborhood/ward, bringing unto your household the good news and blessings of the restored gospel! Rejoice!
 
Well, actually the order of verbs would be: repent, reimburse, and then rejoice.


   


Posted: 11 April 2016 01:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
bjohn
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Some kind of guilt talk about reactivation at General Conference? At Christmas we were given a lot of food from the ward and then more baked stuff from the Relief Society. I began to wonder if we were put on some ward welfare list. It was over the top from what they've done in the past. 

   


Posted: 12 April 2016 05:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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And of course, they never use a phone to ask permission to arrive.
 
They just show up and disturb the occupants.
 
Atrocious behavior we wouldn't allow our friends/family to do, but the church...yah, they get a pass.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 12 April 2016 05:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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The WARD has pretty much stopped calling, showing up or doing anything the past few months for Liz. Well, except the one neighbor. She is one who i truly feel does not let my choice, affect her feelings for my wife. She truly does know, that i am not some degenerate. 
 
I just think they finally realized that I am not going to be swayed or want to be bothered with. No more phone calls about meeting with the Bishop or anything. And it all stopped after i got off Facebook, they don't have any ammunition i guess. 
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Posted: 12 April 2016 05:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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When I was in leadership in wasn't uncommon to talk about the proverbial lost sheep in bishopric mtg, then in priesthood executive mtg, then in ward council and finally in welfare services in line with stake recovery program du jour ad nauseum.  As an EQ President it always bugged me that they just wouldn't leave people alone and they also would let leadership alone.  If you didn't produce the right numbers of reactivation of the lost sheep, they used the guilt that only certain ethnic mothers use(some went as far as to call down the commitments/promises made in the holy house of creepy hugs and handshakes).  Just in the last two weeks two men from our condo development made overtures  --  one wanted to stop by with a companion to see how I was doing(somehow we got confused  about the night so that didn't happen) and the second(with his TBMDW) invited us to a play.  We have interacted with these individuals socially so I'm trying not to read into these two overtures, but I wonder  --  am I a project(when I wrote my letter to my Bishop explaining why I was leaving the church and why I wanted my name removed from the records of the church, my last sentence was  --  and I don't want to become a project but the stake may have other ideas)?  Let you know what happens  --  but they don't have an iceberg's chance in hell to get me to reconsider  --  well, maybe, if, they tell me the B of M is just fiction; pinnocchio joeis a lying, deceiving male whore; the holy house of creepy hugs and handshakes with all its tokens and shit is just that, HORSESHIT;  the Pearl of Great Price is also purely fiction; the priesthood was nothing more than pinnocchio joe's way of protecting his lack of power and authority;  the first VISIONS are a trip into fantasy land.  So, do you think that will happen  --  right, me either. 

   


            
 
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One more thing for women  
Posted: 29 March 2016 03:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
scotmama3
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I saw on the news last night that the MORG is now saying that all LDS women should mentor a refugee or two one on one.  It does not say anything about the men mentoring refugees.  I guess this is a tactic to try to shore up the reputation they are getting regarding callousness of their own members.  It would seem to me that members should at least be kind to and accept their own members that are LGBT but that has not been mentioned recently.
 
I wonder where the church thinks this time and money for mentoring is going to come from.  Women are already challenged with large families, multiple church assignments and now they want them to take on refugees.  I wonder how this program is going to work out or is it all just hype to make the Morg look good and kind.


   


Posted: 29 March 2016 05:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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scotmama:
I saw on the news last night that the MORG is now saying that all LDS women should mentor a refugee or two one on one.  It does not say anything about the men mentoring refugees.  I guess this is a tactic to try to shore up the reputation they are getting regarding callousness of their own members.  It would seem to me that members should at least be kind to and accept their own members that are LGBT but that has not been mentioned recently.
 
I wonder where the church thinks this time and money for mentoring is going to come from.  Women are already challenged with large families, multiple church assignments and now they want them to take on refugees.  I wonder how this program is going to work out or is it all just hype to make the Morg look good and kind.
 
We had some flooding here a few years back, and some drone from the stake high council showed up at priesthood meeting and told everybody that it was their priesthood duty to volunteer to help with the cleanup (about 100,000 people were displaced). This was about 2 weeks after the fact. I guess the church, as usual, was a day late and a dollar short. 
 
If the church has to tell its members to volunteer, they need to have another look at the way they do things. 
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Posted: 29 March 2016 06:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
scotmama3
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It just seems like it is out of the blue and really unconnected to anything.  However, I am not so naive that I believe that the pronouncement is not part of some plan that they have.  Maybe they think the women do not have enough to do and that this will keep them busy enough that they do not have the time to think about the inequality in the church or that they might like to hold the priesthood also. 

   


Posted: 29 March 2016 07:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
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scotmama:
I saw on the news last night that the MORG is now saying that all LDS women should mentor a refugee or two one on one.  It does not say anything about the men mentoring refugees.  I guess this is a tactic to try to shore up the reputation they are getting regarding callousness of their own members.  It would seem to me that members should at least be kind to and accept their own members that are LGBT but that has not been mentioned recently.
 
I wonder where the church thinks this time and money for mentoring is going to come from.  Women are already challenged with large families, multiple church assignments and now they want them to take on refugees.  I wonder how this program is going to work out or is it all just hype to make the Morg look good and kind.
 
 My first thought on this is they know these women are going to push mormonism on these refugees.  I suppose the men alreadly have too much on their plates.  Don't want to offend them--you know--by making life more difficult.
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
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Posted: 29 March 2016 08:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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And don't forget those "mormon helping hands" t-shirts! They must be worn, because when the camera crew and the regional authority show up for the photo op, they must be easily identified by the public!
 
Just one problem... If the "mentors" try to foist their religion upon these refugees, most of whom are Muslim, that opens a whole new can of worms, since anyone who leaves Islam can be branded an infidel and a death warrant could be put out on them (depending on the faction of Islam they observe). Yes, help them, but don't push religion on them. LET THEM BE, for god's sake!
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Posted: 29 March 2016 08:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
scotmama3
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It is always more complicated than just doing a good deed.  T-shirts, proseletizing (sic).  It can never be about helping someone just because you want to give them a hand up.  We are all cynical for good reason. 

   


Posted: 30 March 2016 11:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
former victim
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So this can b twisted around and construed over time into getting your blessings?
 
How devious or low will they stoop?


   


Posted: 30 March 2016 01:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
jellybean
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I've already seen posts from TBM friends applauding the church for how wonderful it is that THIS is being led by women. So basically, this is about how women need to be shown in leadership roles. 

   


Posted: 30 March 2016 01:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
scotmama3
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jellybean:
I've already seen posts from TBM friends applauding the church for how wonderful it is that THIS is being led by women. So basically, this is about how women need to be shown in leadership roles.
 
 If it were not for the women and what they do the whole MORG would fall crumbling to the ground.  I do not know what this is all about but it is not the women directing it unless they are doing what the men tell them to do.  It is one more ridiculous thing to take up their time.....like food storage.
 


   


Posted: 30 March 2016 02:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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Winyan
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It's a good thing to help others. But this is a mandate. Pressure to do more than they're already doing. The church always reminds me of how the Egyptians treated the Hebrew slaves. Not only did they have to spend all day tromping the straw into the mud for bricks, but then they had to gather straw at night too. 

   


Posted: 31 March 2016 03:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
scotmama3
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Winyan:
It's a good thing to help others. But this is a mandate. Pressure to do more than they're already doing. The church always reminds me of how the Egyptians treated the Hebrew slaves. Not only did they have to spend all day tromping the straw into the mud for bricks, but then they had to gather straw at night too.
 
 That is a good way to put it.  It is a mandate.  I am guessing that overextended women are currently taking on more than they can do to out righteous their neighbor and it is not being done because they want to but because the church demands more and more of them so they do not have time to think about what they are believing in and supporting.


   


Posted: 31 March 2016 07:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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Winyan
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scotmama:
Winyan:
It's a good thing to help others. But this is a mandate. Pressure to do more than they're already doing. The church always reminds me of how the Egyptians treated the Hebrew slaves. Not only did they have to spend all day tromping the straw into the mud for bricks, but then they had to gather straw at night too.
 
 That is a good way to put it.  It is a mandate.  I am guessing that overextended women are currently taking on more than they can do to out righteous their neighbor and it is not being done because they want to but because the church demands more and more of them so they do not have time to think about what they are believing in and supporting.
 
 Yes, and probably one of the reasons why studies show such a high rate of depression and prescription drug use among mormons. Especially women, and especially in Utah.


   


Posted: 31 March 2016 11:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
scotmama3
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Winyan:
scotmama:
Winyan:
It's a good thing to help others. But this is a mandate. Pressure to do more than they're already doing. The church always reminds me of how the Egyptians treated the Hebrew slaves. Not only did they have to spend all day tromping the straw into the mud for bricks, but then they had to gather straw at night too.
 
 That is a good way to put it.  It is a mandate.  I am guessing that overextended women are currently taking on more than they can do to out righteous their neighbor and it is not being done because they want to but because the church demands more and more of them so they do not have time to think about what they are believing in and supporting.
 
 Yes, and probably one of the reasons why studies show such a high rate of depression and prescription drug use among mormons. Especially women, and especially in Utah.
 
 I think you may be right about this.  There is a problem with both anti-depressants and pain medication abuse in Utah.  I think the usage is more here than almost any other state.  How else does a woman maintain her sanity when the church keeps on piling more and more on her shoulders. 


   


Posted: 31 March 2016 01:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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Oh goodie, "Adopt a Refugee" program, probably will work just as well as the "Navaho students living with LDS families during the 1960s."
 
 
That didn't work very well either...pulling teenagers away from their families on reservations, to get "educated" with no loving support.
 
As usual, more work for women...on top of the lame jobs they have to do for the church.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 02 April 2016 07:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
bjohn
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My prediction:
Droves of faithful latter day saint women will take heed of the call to help the down trodden refugees. A group of LDS women probably from the North Salt Lake area or near BYU will form a committee all on their own because they are so selfless. Then 1 year from now at the next General Conference session, this tremendous act of love will be a nice filler piece between sessions. Such a tender mercy!


   


Posted: 02 April 2016 07:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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Tessa:
Oh goodie, "Adopt a Refugee" program, probably will work just as well as the "Navaho students living with LDS families during the 1960s." That didn't work very well either...pulling teenagers away from their families on reservations, to get "educated" with no loving support. As usual, more work for women...on top of the lame jobs they have to do for the church.
 
 YES! A family member had personal experience with this. A teen was put in their home, and this boy ended up molesting their daughters. When they went to the bishop to get this boy removed from their home they were told that THEY KNEW about this as a possible issue because it had happened in OTHER homes as well, but really hoped that THEIR home would have had the right spirit to fix it!
 
Talk about manipluation and guilt tripping! No appology for what happened to their daughters, just "oh shoot, you weren't spiritual enough to fix it after all". And of course, being TBM they took the abuse.


   


Posted: 02 April 2016 11:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
scotmama3
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jellybean:
Tessa:
Oh goodie, "Adopt a Refugee" program, probably will work just as well as the "Navaho students living with LDS families during the 1960s." That didn't work very well either...pulling teenagers away from their families on reservations, to get "educated" with no loving support. As usual, more work for women...on top of the lame jobs they have to do for the church.
 
 YES! A family member had personal experience with this. A teen was put in their home, and this boy ended up molesting their daughters. When they went to the bishop to get this boy removed from their home they were told that THEY KNEW about this as a possible issue because it had happened in OTHER homes as well, but really hoped that THEIR home would have had the right spirit to fix it!
 
Talk about manipluation and guilt tripping! No appology for what happened to their daughters, just "oh shoot, you weren't spiritual enough to fix it after all". And of course, being TBM they took the abuse.
 
 If I were that parent, I would sue the church.  They have the responsibility to protect volunteers from known threats.  It is disgusting that they would expose an innocent family to this kind of risk  However, the family probably is TBM and would not think of criticizing the a$$holes who put their daughters at risk.


   


Posted: 09 April 2016 11:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
leftasteen
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We are pro-family, but we want you to spend your time taking care of other people instead of your kids and family.  Ignore your children, spouse, and parents so you can talk on the phone with refugees from foreign lands who think you are a worthless infidel.
 
Leave your children watching TV while you handle the paperwork for your ward job. Don't worry about your kid's salvation, since the mormon formula will insure their salvation. Copious meetings, mixed with brainwashing and guilt trips and social pressure will lock them into the path to Kolob.   
 
Make sure you track your refugee assistance statistics so the church elders can take credit for it.  Make sure you don't complain when your ignored family has troubles. Sacrifice is a sign of your faith.  Obedience is your path to the celestial kindom.  If ignoring your family causes trouble, it's just your lack of faith.  You need to pray more, and donate more to the church until your faith is restored.
 
Believe, obey, believe, obey, you are feeling sleepy, very sleepy...... 
 
 
 
 
 
 
I remember both my parents spending hours of service doing their ward jobs instead of paying attention to us.  Church before family was a prominent theme I remember about growing up in the church.  
 
 
 
 


   


Posted: 09 April 2016 07:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
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Elder OldDog
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This is from way out in right field, where I squatted down, watching the seeds fly away from a dandelion ...
 
As a result of a life time's wildly eclectic reading, I have ended up with the notion that human beings enjoy leisure. We humans will work until we meet our needs, which for most of us is modest, compared to what some humans will work for in order to meet their wants. The former are far more numerous than the latter.
Poor mormons! They are being hectored by their leaders, from EQPs and RSPs, on up to the Fossil 15, to do more. More meetings, more praying, more studying, more teaching, more service. And at the same time, they are being urged to stay away from what I laughingly call "reality", which is silly stuff like what human beings really are and what their place is in the world. Neither of these latter two issues have answers that any significant segment of humanity will agree on.
The church would prefer that the members stay simple, stay busy and stay focused on the lure that is (for men, anyway) the Celestial Kingdom.
There is no fun in mormonism, there is only service and pretending that service is fun.
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Posted: 12 April 2016 05:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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And of course, the church is going to spend ba-zillions on vetting these refugees....making so sure they won't go wacko and start shooting up neighborhoods.
 
Sorry, even the government isn't doing a good enough job...how can the church think this is a bright idea?
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 12 April 2016 06:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]   

   
 
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maynardg
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David O McKay  --  "NO other success can compensate for failure in the home".  Yet the morg sets up families for failure(feel like TSM  --  three f words together)  --  have parents bogged down with callings by using guilt and emotional/spiritual manipulation to keep them in line.  EQ, Primary, RS, YM/YW, Bishopric  --  major time sucks.  My TBMDIL wrote on FB that the morg doesn't have paid ministry(I almost threw up in my mouth) and that's one of the things she admired about the morg.  Having been in leadership positions(and knowing about the penishood 15 et al  --  their sweet financial deals) I know that many times you feel like an overworked and underappreciated fool.  I remember as an EQ pres and having to answer to the high councilman about our HT  --  it really sucked many times.  Some never have and never will have a testamonkey about HT, period.  But that is all in the past  --  I have seen the light and the truth has set me free and that is .....   PRICELESS! 

   


            
 
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What else can you call it, but the GREAT MANIPULATION!  
Posted: 04 April 2016 07:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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maynardg
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I no longer make it a part of my TV viewing  --  the semi-annual HORSESHIT seminars from the fossil 15 penishood holders et al!  But (I don't remember what sessions)  one with Pres. Eyring and some other penishood holder.  I have to say that when I was a TBMorgbot, I did this and it seems as I got/get older, it happened/happens more frequently  --  when some event happens, I turn into an emotional mess(Ex.  the movie Taking Chance, A League of Their Own when they all come together at the baseball hall of fame, and other similar situations.  But now I know that it has nothing to do with whether or not it is true or not, like I did when I was imprisoned in the morg).  So, I am listening to these two men and both of them start getting teary eyed and all the rest of that shit  --  on national TV and I'm thinking  --  when I was a rabid TBmorgbot, I would be all teary eyed as well(and there were times when I was the speaker, I would turn into an emotional mess)  --  but now that I know that the morg is nothing more than a great big pile of stinking HORSESHIT  --  this really pisses me off  --  my TBMDW and family are all watching these men blubber and they're thinking  --  inspired men of God!
Every six months, my TBMDW+family listens to this HORSESHIT and that solidifies in their morgbot brains and protracts their morgbot comas  --  he's/she's teary eyed  --  oh my, the word of god from the chosen ones.  HORSESHIT!!!!!!!
Now that the morg is no longer a part of my life  --  I know the truth and it has set me free  --  I have seen the light  --  I have seen behind the curtain and IMVHO, I believe that these people should receive academy awards for best actors and actresses for the best performance at the sessions of HORSESHIT seminars.  I also believe that my family will continue to be entrenched in the morg as long as they get this stuff every six month because for them this behavior signifies spiritual power.
In a number of posts, I have referred to the "morg fixes"(just like drugs) that morgbots get every Sunday and overdoses at the general HORSESHIT seminars every six months.  I believe in KARMA, and in MVHO, I believe someday the HORSESHIT is going to hit the fan and morgbots are going to be amazed and lost and just maybe as pissed as I was when I learned the truth that set me free and that is/will be ...  PRICELESS!
Nothing short of EMOTIONAL MANIPULATION FROM THE GREATEST EMOTIONAL TERRORIST IN THE LAND  --  THE MORG!!


   


Posted: 04 April 2016 07:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Now tell us how you really feel, Mr. Krebs!
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Posted: 04 April 2016 08:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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maynardg
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MU, I hadn't even got warmed up yet  --  it's only Monday morning! 

   


Posted: 04 April 2016 02:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
former victim
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We are a patient group my son, so take your time..... 

   


Posted: 04 April 2016 02:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Quartersawn
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Maynard, 
 
 
You joined after this discussion in 2011 about Heartsell®.
and our own Jeff Ricks was part of this discussion which lead to a MormonDiscussion interview  (their site is currently down so no linky today). 
 
I'm afraid that if you're not already upset about manipulation, 
 Signature
Why would you consider a man a prophet whose morals are worse than your own? Having claimed to commune with deity, be visited by angels and receive revelations, should he not be held to a higher standard? —me


   


Posted: 10 April 2016 01:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Tapir buster
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Joined  2016-04-09
 
  
 
Karma, huh?
 
I shudder to think what I must have done in my previous life that caused me to grow up in Mormonism. It must have been something sexual. 
 
Yeah, I wouldn't want their karma. Not that the karmic cycle can't be broken, but they will all demand justice and continue their cycle. Sucks to be them. 


   


Posted: 10 April 2016 02:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
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maynardg:
I no longer make it a part of my TV viewing  --  the semi-annual HORSESHIT seminars from the fossil 15 penishood holders et al!  But (I don't remember what sessions)  one with Pres. Eyring and some other penishood holder.  I have to say that when I was a TBMorgbot, I did this and it seems as I got/get older, it happened/happens more frequently  --  when some event happens, I turn into an emotional mess(Ex.  the movie Taking Chance, A League of Their Own when they all come together at the baseball hall of fame, and other similar situations.  But now I know that it has nothing to do with whether or not it is true or not, like I did when I was imprisoned in the morg).  So, I am listening to these two men and both of them start getting teary eyed and all the rest of that shit  --  on national TV and I'm thinking  --  when I was a rabid TBmorgbot, I would be all teary eyed as well(and there were times when I was the speaker, I would turn into an emotional mess)  --  but now that I know that the morg is nothing more than a great big pile of stinking HORSESHIT  --  this really pisses me off  --  my TBMDW and family are all watching these men blubber and they're thinking  --  inspired men of God!
Every six months, my TBMDW+family listens to this HORSESHIT and that solidifies in their morgbot brains and protracts their morgbot comas  --  he's/she's teary eyed  --  oh my, the word of god from the chosen ones.  HORSESHIT!!!!!!!
Now that the morg is no longer a part of my life  --  I know the truth and it has set me free  --  I have seen the light  --  I have seen behind the curtain and IMVHO, I believe that these people should receive academy awards for best actors and actresses for the best performance at the sessions of HORSESHIT seminars.  I also believe that my family will continue to be entrenched in the morg as long as they get this stuff every six month because for them this behavior signifies spiritual power.
In a number of posts, I have referred to the "morg fixes"(just like drugs) that morgbots get every Sunday and overdoses at the general HORSESHIT seminars every six months.  I believe in KARMA, and in MVHO, I believe someday the HORSESHIT is going to hit the fan and morgbots are going to be amazed and lost and just maybe as pissed as I was when I learned the truth that set me free and that is/will be ...  PRICELESS!
Nothing short of EMOTIONAL MANIPULATION FROM THE GREATEST EMOTIONAL TERRORIST IN THE LAND  --  THE MORG!!
 It is a powerful addiction and you are right--GC is a huge fix.  Maybe near the top of my upset list is the loyalty the morg can steal.  If a loved one says something bad about the morg--TBMs take no prisoners.  The more they can hurt you--the better they like it.  Their #1 loyalty belongs to the morg.  Think you are right--karma ia nipping at the heels of those douche bags.  To your post Maynardg--AMEN!
 
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 12 April 2016 05:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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And they think Trump's ponzi scheme was bad. The church's ponzi scheme has been going on for 175 years now...
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 12 April 2016 05:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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Jon Marshall
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There was a guy recently sentenced to Prison from Hyde Park who was running schemes and got some people in the ward involved. He was teaching Elders Quorm lessons even after he was indited.  
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Posted: 12 April 2016 06:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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Lloyd Dobler
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Maynardg, so what your saying is that you would not be interested in the giant stack of conference CDs I have?....
 
for like 10 years my inlaws would give me the general conference on cd, twice a year.  seriously, I must have over 20 of these multi cd conference cases boxed away somewhere.  
 
I love that for tbms, just watching it is not enough.  They have to then listen to these clowns talk to them in their car etc for the next 6 months.  It's just never enough.  
 
 
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Vindicated, I am selfish, I am wrong, I am right
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And I am flawed
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Vindicated
Dashboard Confessionalhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDCED-qQExc


   


Posted: 12 April 2016 06:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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maynardg
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What do they that little gizmo that you use for shooting shotguns  --  you know, you load it, yank on something and your cd goes flying off into the wild blue yonder to be blown to smithereens  --  that's damn good therapy if you ask me! 

   


            
 
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 Other signs of LDS decline - please add to the list
by Free2Live
My sister escaped and she's poking the hornet nest
by former victim
Missionary run ins
by former victim
I never got an answer
by Winyan
Otterson Is a liar. It Is Betrayal.
by Morethanmo
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One more thing for women
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A Ray of Hope  
Posted: 03 April 2016 06:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Jon Marshall
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As i have said before my wife is very TBM. Well, yesterday she showed and expressed a different side of that. She is doubting. She is doubting the Church. 
 
She said that she is "fed Up", that she is emotionally drained on the constant "guilt" she has from not being able to attend Church. She says she feels worthless, that she feels that she is pretty much a ward  pariah.
 
I asked her if I had in anyway made her feel this way and she said NO. She said that she has been thinking this for a while and has come to realize that she is letting the IN GRAINED Fear of what her family will think run her spiritual life. She used to get weekly phone calls from her Parents and asked what the lesson was on, just to make sure she went to Church.   They do not do that anymore. Because she can't go to Church and they know it.
 
She also gets 1 to 2 letters a week from a great neighbor who is honestly really nice and giving, but she always adds little barbs ( unknowingly of course ) that make my wife feel worse. Some of the subjects in her letters have been "You can do More", " Are you steadfast in your Faith", "Do not Doubt" and a whole plethora of other Guilt ridden subjects.
 
I asked her does she feel that the Ward is treating her different and she said yes, and I said do you think its because of ME, because I do. I said they are lumping us in together.
 
She said YES, but they don't know you. They don't know how good a husband you are and how much you do for us.   I told her that i have never posted anything ANTI. She agreed.
 
She said you just post stuff to get people to think and see outside of the Church box.
 
 
So A little Ray of hope has happend. I am hoping it continues.  *Crossing Fingers* 
 Signature http://www.jonathankmarshall.blogspot.com


   


Posted: 03 April 2016 07:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
Free2Live
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This is great hope! Your wife holds on to actual events instead of accepting others interpretation of your combined situation. Here is a part of ACIM that teaches about love versus fear. I found it useful in helping myself tunnel out of the cult called a church. 
 
http://www.circleofa.org/library/capsules/robert-perry/why-is-fear-the-opposite-of-love/
 
I accept god as love.  
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One is as committed into testimony as much as they pay into the belief in dollars, time, talent and energy. Afterall, it has to be true once you have signed the lifetime subscription and you have a track record to defend.


   


Posted: 03 April 2016 07:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Jon Marshall
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FreeLive:
This is great hope! Your wife holds on to actual events instead of accepting others interpretation of your combined situation. Here is a part of ACIM that teaches about love versus fear. I found it useful in helping myself tunnel out of the cult called a church. 
 
http://www.circleofa.org/library/capsules/robert-perry/why-is-fear-the-opposite-of-love/
 
I accept god as love.  
 
 I think she is seeing how much members rely on a persons activity in the Church.  And if a spouse is not active, that means the other spouse must be as well.
 
 
 Signature http://www.jonathankmarshall.blogspot.com


   


Posted: 03 April 2016 07:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Morethanmo
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It's so good to hear about this change! I'm glad she sees the real you and not your "mantle of authority", like so many members do. It sounds like if you let her work things out, she may evolve with you. smile That's a happy thing.
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__________________________________________

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
~Epicurus
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Posted: 04 April 2016 08:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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maynardg
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YES!!!! 

   


Posted: 04 April 2016 09:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Quartersawn
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Awesome!! It is good to see a success story. 
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Why would you consider a man a prophet whose morals are worse than your own? Having claimed to commune with deity, be visited by angels and receive revelations, should he not be held to a higher standard? —me


   


Posted: 04 April 2016 02:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Celestial Wedgie
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Jon, wow!  This is great. It looks like you two have turned a corner, that being united as a couple has higher priority than being devout as members. That gives me so much hope for the two of you.
 
Thanks for sharing this. Sometimes my heart feels bruised from all of the stories of broken families, blamed children, and shattered marriages that are left in the wake of an unfeeling church exerting its self-promoting power. I like hearing the victories and intact loves.


   


Posted: 04 April 2016 02:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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Winyan
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This is a happy thing. Thanks for sharing it. 

   


Posted: 04 April 2016 05:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
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This is so Awesome Jon! How good this must make you feel!  
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 04 April 2016 06:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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LostInParadise
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Awesome news! Even if it doesn't lead to her leaving the church (hopefully it does), this is a positive thing for your marriage. 
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Once mormon, twice shy.


   


Posted: 05 April 2016 06:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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Jon Marshall
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We haven't talked about it since the other day. I am thinking I will bring it up more when we try to get away for a few days to Park City.  I don't want to make her plant her feet and stand up for the Church.  
 
 I am sure when she goes to Texas to visit Family she will get the big brunt of Church and many conversations about our marriage and how i am just providing her the "TEMPORAL" things here on Earth.   
 
I have a clear mind and I don't have to explain my reasonings to anyone. I will just point them to various sites, like Mormon Think and even the Essays. 
 Signature http://www.jonathankmarshall.blogspot.com


   


Posted: 05 April 2016 12:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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That's some well-deserved good news, John.  Thanks for letting us know.  
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Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.

Phillip K. Dick


   


Posted: 06 April 2016 10:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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Jon Marshall
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Thank you all for your kind words and support.  
 
I have not brought up the subject since. I want her to continue to think, ponder and pray :)
 
She has issues with the Church and its new policies on gays, the double standards of owning businesses that go against their moral code.  
 
Day to day is all i can hope for with her health as well as her Church stance. 
 Signature http://www.jonathankmarshall.blogspot.com


   


Posted: 06 April 2016 11:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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Winyan
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Jon Marshall:
Thank you all for your kind words and support.  
 
I have not brought up the subject since. I want her to continue to think, ponder and pray :)
 
She has issues with the Church and its new policies on gays, the double standards of owning businesses that go against their moral code.  
 
Day to day is all i can hope for with her health as well as her Church stance. 
 
 That's the best plan... to wait while she goes at her own pace and comes to her own conclusions. It sounds like the truth is starting to find its way to the surface.
 


   


Posted: 06 April 2016 06:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
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Jon Marshall:
Thank you all for your kind words and support.  
 
I have not brought up the subject since. I want her to continue to think, ponder and pray :)
 
She has issues with the Church and its new policies on gays, the double standards of owning businesses that go against their moral code.  
 
Day to day is all i can hope for with her health as well as her Church stance. 
 
 You are being wise Jon--to love her so much--neither of you will ever regret--and to allow her to come to her senses at her own pace.  Bless you--with love--from those who believe in love--not religion. 
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 12 April 2016 06:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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Jon Marshall
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Strong Free & Thankful:
Jon Marshall:
Thank you all for your kind words and support.  
 
I have not brought up the subject since. I want her to continue to think, ponder and pray :)
 
She has issues with the Church and its new policies on gays, the double standards of owning businesses that go against their moral code.  
 
Day to day is all i can hope for with her health as well as her Church stance. 
 
 You are being wise Jon--to love her so much--neither of you will ever regret--and to allow her to come to her senses at her own pace.  Bless you--with love--from those who believe in love--not religion. 
 
 Thanks so much SF&T. 
 
I try my best to keep how I feel out about the Church out of our daily conversations. I wait for her to say something to give me an in when it comes to the Church. Recently a lot of her talk is negative. That is great to me. But she quickly feels guilty about it after.  It is so ingrained in her to feel that. I hate seeing her emotions fighting.  I feel deep down she knows what I say is true. But she has such a fear of her Families thinking and response that there is no way she will ever do anything.   With me and her family, i am the Son-in-Law. I don't care if they don't like me. I love their daughter/sister.  I am not worried about their salvation, why worry about mine.  
 Signature http://www.jonathankmarshall.blogspot.com


   


Posted: 12 April 2016 07:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
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maynardg
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My wife is 1st counselor in the RS Time Suck.  She is over the night time RS.  This Thursday she is having surgery and who knows how long for the recovery.  In any case she just learned that she no longer has a committee or a chairpeson(or whatever they call them)for the night time RS, the primary stole her.  So here's the deal  --  she has submitted a number of names but was told that those people already have callings  --  yet the primary got to steal her chairperson  --  my TBMDW's response  --  that really upsets me, that makes me angry.  Another interesting comment came from both my TBMDS+TBMDIL  --  tell the bishop to find a new 1st counselor.  My response was to tell my TBMDW  --  tell the RS pres you don't know how long in will be to recuperate from your surgery(although my TBMDW is a rabid TBM and she'll kill herself before she would consider letting the morg down).  I will let you know what happens but I see a small crack  --  yes! 

   


Posted: 12 April 2016 08:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
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Celestial Wedgie
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Maynard, maybe this small crack will expand over time! (I hope your wife recovers soon.) 

   


Posted: 12 April 2016 09:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
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Lloyd Dobler
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Keep working your program bro.  You can never predict the when and how a tbm spouse will figure out that it's a joke.  But it happens, all the time.  Like me, it seems you are doing a long term strategy thing, so just keep trying to strike the right balance between her doubting comments and your reinforcing response.  At moments like these, I used to try to ask a thoughtful follow up question that would not piss her off or make her think I was being anti, but would help her critally thing through the next step toward realizing the nonsense.
 
Ward dynamics are a great place for her doubts and cog dis to grow.  She has been taught that the spirit and the authority, indeed, Heavenly Father, run her ward....when the total opposite is the case and is reflected in the lived experience.  Keep helping her see it!  btw, i'm full of crap today so take all advice with caution. 
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I swear I’m right, swear I knew it all along
And I am flawed
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I am seeing in me now the things you swore, you saw yourself

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Forum Home  >  Member Forums  >  The Community Forum  >  Thread 
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Man I’ve been pissed off at the morg lately…  
Posted: 09 April 2016 01:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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LadyinRed
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Well it's been a while since I've been on here. I go through periods where I don't feel the need and then I go through periods of anger where I tend to gravitate back here...
 
So anyway, I'm back. And I've been super pissed off lately. Back when I was going to BYU, trying to be a good little Mormon, I was raped by a guy I was dating. He told me it was my fault. I believed him of course. After all he was a priesthood holder, a returned missionary, and a good little TBM attending BYU. He couldn't be in the wrong.
 
This was nearly 6 years ago and I've only now started to really deal with it. I was ashamed and tried to forget about it. Only recently has it really come up because I've had my first serious relationship with a guy since it happened. And I realize I have issues when it comes to sex.
 
I mean I already knew I had issues when it comes to sex. It took me a really long time to come to terms with the fact that I was bisexual and me having sex with a girl wasn't wrong.
 
I guess the thing that's really pissing me off right now is all the guilt I've experienced just from being in the morg. Guilt about being attracted to women. Guilt about being curious as to what sex was like. Guilt that I was raped.
 
Of course I know now that it wasn't my fault that I was raped. No matter what the church says boys can control themselves and wearing immodest clothing doesn't mean we take the blame on ourselves of what they may have done to us.
 
I know this is a heavy topic. It's just that I go through periods of really intense anger about the sexual repression of the church and how much it's screwed me up. I just wanted to vent.


   


Posted: 09 April 2016 03:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
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LadyinRed.
 
Sorry this happened to you.  You find incredible folks everywhere and a certain number of jerks along with them.  Some will use whatever means available--to get what they want.  The pretend PH can be a tool for Jerks.  Too many men and young men commit suicide over the self-acquired "toxic guilt syndrome" mormonism causes.  I know it happens to women as well.  I hope you can get help or figure out how to put the damage behind you.  Happy thoughts and gratitude might be a starting point? 
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 09 April 2016 06:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Elder OldDog
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It's certainly no excuse...
 
Men get screwed up about sex due to their mormonistic upbringing.  If a guy believes sex is bad, but he follows his perfectly natural inclination to have sex, then he is confronted with the dilemma of "Wow! that was great...But I wasn't supposed to do it...so now I feel guilty...so I'll make it all HER fault!"  And there is a sense of relief.  It's all very, very screwed up, just like mormonism...
 
But yeah, in mormonism if there's a woman who can be blamed, she will be; the priesthood über alles. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Posted: 09 April 2016 06:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
leftasteen
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Any guy who would rape a woman is not a TBM, nor is he much of a real man.  
 
But you were tough enough to get through it and move away from the church and it's craziness.
 
You have a triple challenge: overcoming a sexual trauma, overcoming religious baggage, and dealing with your own sexual preferences. 
 
I sense that anger is really strength.  You can succeed in overcoming these challenges and enjoying the wonderful joy that sex is meant to be.  
 
That jerk won't win.  The old men liars in the church won't win.  You will win.  Your partner will win with you.   You can do it. 


   


Posted: 10 April 2016 09:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Jon Marshall
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LadyinRed,
 
 
I am so sorry that you were raped. My wife was raped also while at BYU and was excommunicated because she took the morning after pill.  She spent years repenting her way back into the Church until the spring we were married.   8 YEARS.
 
The Church makes it seem that males are in a constant state of HORNINESS and that if a girl as much shows an ankle she is asking for it.  I hate that.
 
I hate how the Church spins anything sexual into something that should be shunned, hidden or guilt ridden.
 
Your attraction to males, females is god given. Its not a choice. Its not a faze. Just keep living how you want. Screw what anyone else thinks, says or does and realize that your spirituality is your OWN and not anyone elses.
 
Be well,
 
Jon 
 Signature http://www.jonathankmarshall.blogspot.com


   


Posted: 10 April 2016 09:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Tapir buster
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Ugh, this makes me sick. I'm so sorry for what happened to you. I'm even more sorry for what keeps happening to you, the awful Mormon brainwashing that makes you beat yourself up for being human.
 
You're not a mobot, you're a human. A member of a unique species with a legacy of life going back to the first primordial cell and rising to the pinnacle of thought, reason and introspection. When the first fish crawled from the sea, that was your victory. When your egg was fertilized, that was your miracle. Wow. Wow, wow, wow! Come on, no imaginary sky daddy could have 1/1000th the glory of nature.
 
Think of the movie Iron Giant. My favorite scene:
Hogarth Hughes: [to the Giant, in battle mode] It's bad to kill. Guns kill. And you don't have to be a gun. You are what you choose to be. You choose. Choose.
 
It's all your choice. They can't steal it from you. They can't con it out of you. They have proven themselves unqualified in all areas of moral endeavor eight ways from Sunday, so what more do you need? Take back your power and love you unconditionally because you deserve nothing less.
 
Remember, it's all conditioning. True love doesn't have conditions or conditioning. 


   


Posted: 10 April 2016 11:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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LadyinRed
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Thanks everyone for all your encouraging words. It's been hard because I thought I had gotten over all my anger at the church. It turns out I haven't though. I've been burying things too long and not dealing with them. Jon Marshall, that honestly sickens me that your wife was excommunicated for taking the morning after pill. I also took the morning after pill. I never told anyone about the rape or about taking the pill though. Apparently if I had I would have been excommunicated. Although that may not have been the worst thing. Even though the rape was a horrible event I will say that it was kind of the catalyst for me leaving the church. After that happened I started questioning the church and questioning my participation in it. I will say that I am very lucky to have such an amazing boyfriend though. He's been incredibly supportive and understanding through this whole thing. And he's not pushy at all about the sex thing cause he knows I have issues to work out. It makes me feel better that there really are good guys out there. I've also been going to therapy and working through a lot of things in therapy. I honestly don't think I fully realized how many issues I had because of growing up in the morg until I started going to therapy. I think that's a lot of the reason I've been so angry lately because I'm finally starting to realize just how many issues I have... 

   


Posted: 10 April 2016 11:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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Tapir buster
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I know the feeling. I was up to speed on the church's dirt for several years and I was okay with knowing how it messed me up. Then, from out of the blue it just hit me: What. The. F--k?
 
The course of nature is ultimately acceptance after anger, so it's bound to get better. I think what happens is that each time you awaken into a new reality, thanks to your personal growth, you have to go through the cycle again because you see it all with new eyes. For example, you learn to open up and really love yourself, and not be a doormat, and then you're like, "Look what they did to my innocence". Because now it matters.
 
However, for me it seems easier this time around. Not much easier, but easier. My world isn't a swirling mess. And it should be even easier next time around. 


   


Posted: 10 April 2016 11:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
sl-skipper
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So sorry. Check out the posts on some other post-mo and exmo sites about the furor being raised lately by the revelation that rape victims at BYU are placed in jeopardy of getting kicked out of the school. 

   


Posted: 10 April 2016 01:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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MishMagnet
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I'm so sorry you had this experience. 
 
I do think the church creates a very unhealthy sexual environment that harms many people. 
 
I post on a board for sexual issues in marriage and there are SO many former and current Mormons there dealing with their situations.
 
I'm in my mid 40's and left the church in my mid 20's.  I feel like just in the past couple of years I've finally gotten through my sexual issues. 
 
Having experienced a sexual assault and being in the spectrum on your attraction, those are two big blows to overcome (not that being in the spectrum is in itself wrong or something to overcome but rather the way you've been persuaded to see your situation.) 
 
It's ok to be angry, I've had surges of anger toward the church that I thought would consume me over the years.  But the mind and body does work through things with us.  It doesn't make anything ok, of course, but rather an acceptance and an ability to move forward with things. 
 
 
 
   
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Posted: 10 April 2016 05:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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sl-skipper:
So sorry. Check out the posts on some other post-mo and exmo sites about the furor being raised lately by the revelation that rape victims at BYU are placed in jeopardy of getting kicked out of the school.
 
 As if I weren't angry enough...wow that makes me even more pissed off 


   


Posted: 10 April 2016 05:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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LadyinRed
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MishMagnet:
I'm so sorry you had this experience. 
 
I do think the church creates a very unhealthy sexual environment that harms many people. 
 
I post on a board for sexual issues in marriage and there are SO many former and current Mormons there dealing with their situations.
 
I'm in my mid 40's and left the church in my mid 20's.  I feel like just in the past couple of years I've finally gotten through my sexual issues. 
 
Having experienced a sexual assault and being in the spectrum on your attraction, those are two big blows to overcome (not that being in the spectrum is in itself wrong or something to overcome but rather the way you've been persuaded to see your situation.) 
 
It's ok to be angry, I've had surges of anger toward the church that I thought would consume me over the years.  But the mind and body does work through things with us.  It doesn't make anything ok, of course, but rather an acceptance and an ability to move forward with things. 
 
 
 
   
 
     This is so incredibly true. I spent so much time feeling "lucky" that I was bi and not a lesbian...at least that meant that I had a chance at finding an acceptable mate someday. I even had some good little Mormons I knew (the ones who didn't claim I brought my sexuality on myself because I wasn't good enough) tell me as much; I was "lucky" that I was attracted to boys and that was acceptable. It's not surprising that even after I finally admitted my sexuality to myself I was still incredibly unhappy; everyone was telling me that part of me was "bad" and shameful so I still felt that part of me was bad.
 
I think part of the reason I'm having such a hard time handling this anger is I've always been a really laid back person. It's really easy for me to let things go and forgive people. But I guess now I'm starting to realize that TSCC crossed the line. And I can't look past that or forgive it. So I just have to work through it and find a way to move forward. 


   


Posted: 10 April 2016 05:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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LadyinRed:
sl-skipper:
So sorry. Check out the posts on some other post-mo and exmo sites about the furor being raised lately by the revelation that rape victims at BYU are placed in jeopardy of getting kicked out of the school.
 
 As if I weren't angry enough...wow that makes me even more pissed off 
 
If you're up for brewing a pot of tea, put the kettle on your head as you read this:
http://www.inquisitr.com/2979357/byu-rape-culture-associate-dean-of-students-does-not-apologize-for-honor-code-that-treats-victims-as-suspects/ 


   


Posted: 11 April 2016 11:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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Celestial Wedgie
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LadyinRed, I'm so sorry. The new wave of anger, the sense of not having completed your recovery or the anger wouldn't rise up again, the blame directed to you, and the assault--I'm sorry that you experienced those things.
 
One thing you don't need is having some man you don't know cast judgment, but I hope it's okay to point out...
 
Having anger...
Having old feelings come back...
Being hurt by being blamed...
Being sexually assaulted...
 
...NOT your fault.
 
Sometimes anger serves to remind us, "What happened wasn't right. It wasn't fair. I'm not okay with it." Probably anger is not your enemy in this case. Anger sometimes speaks with too much certainty or with a hurtful quality and that's not okay. But the energy from anger and the other messages that it offers are probably gifts.
 
I'm sorry for the original and the current hurts. On the other hand I'm glad that you felt safe coming back to lean on us as your friends.


   


Posted: 12 April 2016 05:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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The "temple ceremony" of endowments, that your so-called "good" missionary attended, probably many many times....makes "Eve" out to be in league with Lucifer, and blamed for Adam's fall from grace.
 
It's the old Catholic "the women are witches and they are the heavy sinners/prostitutes" mind-set.
 
All christian religions carry this around with them, blaming women from an old dusty tome called "The Bible.
 
It's a disgrace.
 
There was no "fall"....it's all a myth to treat women like chattel.
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Posted: 12 April 2016 07:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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IMVHO, I believe there is only one appropriate punishment for individuals like your BYU sexual preditor  --  have his junk nailed to a log, give him a knife and set the log on fire!(IMVHO, I believe if we had these kinds of things nationally televised, we would fewer of them).
On a more serious note(not that I wasn't serious above - I was), I feel your pain, the pain that comes from trusting someone, only to be deceived and be victimized and then made to feel like you are the perpetrator.  Sounds like you've found an understanding guy  -- essential to the healing process.  Something just popped into my head and I want to share it(sometimes I have to be careful, but I think you'll understand) I remember a TV show where the young lady in the show was on her way home when she was attacked and raped.  When the police came, she asked them to contact her boyfriend and one of the officers responded by saying  --  sometimes boyfriends get funny about stuff like this  --  and her response was  --  if he is going to get funny, I want to know about it now.
You can depend on support from this site  --  the morg has managed to really *^%$up people, especially when it comes to sex.  But there are people who can say   --  trust us  --  been there, experienced  that and we understand and are here to listen and provide comfort and support.  Bottom line  --  be kind to you!


   


Posted: 12 April 2016 08:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized
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Tapir buster:
LadyinRed:
sl-skipper:
So sorry. Check out the posts on some other post-mo and exmo sites about the furor being raised lately by the revelation that rape victims at BYU are placed in jeopardy of getting kicked out of the school.
 
 As if I weren't angry enough...wow that makes me even more pissed off 
 
If you're up for brewing a pot of tea, put the kettle on your head as you read this:
http://www.inquisitr.com/2979357/byu-rape-culture-associate-dean-of-students-does-not-apologize-for-honor-code-that-treats-victims-as-suspects/ 
 
Link was dead. I found the article here.
 
This article should be mandatory reading for all mormons. Unfortunately, there are many who would defend the Lahrd's school. "Well she shouldn't have been in that situation in the first place!"
 
It makes me ill. The honor code is more important than a rape victim?  It's absolutely indefensible, yet there are those to whom the church can do NO WRONG under any circumstances.
 
And Jon Marshall - What's this about your wife being excommunicated for being raped and taking the morning after pill? That is absolutely indefensible as well. I thought the church was OK with abortion in the cases of rape or incest (well - not OK but not condemning it either). And the morning after pill - who was to say she was even pregnant and that the pill resulted in killing a baby? Such utter, utter bullshit.
 
The current handbook of instructions allows for abortion in the cases of forcible rape. However, it says it's not an automatic exception, that the victim must consult with her bishop and receive divine confirmation through prayer.
 
SO... where your wife ran afoul of church policy was in ACTING AND THINKING FOR HERSELF, and without involving another male (bishop) in the process. Again, utter bullshit.
 
And then there are all the different bishops who treat it differently. I swear, if she had been in another ward she might not have been excommunicated.  
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Posted: 12 April 2016 10:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
peace out
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Lady in Red
What happened to you is not right and the church compounded the problem with the policies and culture. I can only speak from my own perspective (not a woman’s) I’m personally am almost always inclined to get even, it can be a failing. Have you considered sending a letter to this person’s current bishop to be on the watch for such behavior? It was 6 years ago but hopefully that would keep him away from a calling working with the youth. It’s your decision of course, but I would think legal action would be hard to take after such a long time (I really have no idea) but maybe you can call him to account in some small way.  If he is still a faithful Mormon he most likely never confessed any of this. I’m sure it would be his worst nightmare to be exposed to some of the most judgmental people on the planet. This may be a stupid idea so please feel free to dismiss what I’m saying out of hand. Do what you feel you need to optimize your happiness and well being.


 


   


            
 
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The world has gone mad!!!
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Man I've been pissed off at the morg lately...
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One more thing for women
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The world has gone mad!!!  
Posted: 12 April 2016 06:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Mad, I tell you!!!
 
 
 http://rationalfaiths.com/bernie-brigham-two-kind/
 
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“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
~Epicurus
__________________________________________


   


Posted: 12 April 2016 07:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
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There are idiots everywhere.  
 
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 13 April 2016 06:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Strong Free & Thankful:
There are idiots everywhere.  
 
 
 But Brigham and Bernie??? I can't think what is going through the minds of the mormons...Brigham was the nuttiest communist in these parts. Ask any Utah historian about his wacky ideas and failed communes! 
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“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
~Epicurus
__________________________________________


   


            
 
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by former victim
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I never got an answer
by Winyan
Otterson Is a liar. It Is Betrayal.
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YBU places Honor Code above safety and security of rape victims.
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Man I've been pissed off at the morg lately...
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A Ray of Hope
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What else can you call it, but the GREAT MANIPULATION!
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One more thing for women
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You can leave the church, but the church won't leave you alone: Targeted Assaults!
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2015 statistics
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Coming up May 1’st 2016 - Kristyn Decker to lecture!
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The Book of Mormon Musical comes to South Carolina!
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My story is now over on Mormon Think  
Posted: 04 April 2016 05:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
Bruce A Holt
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The audio of my DC is there, too. Unfortunately the recorder battery died (and it was fully charged) seconds before I was excused so they could deliberate my fate so you won't get the verdict. I didn't expect the DC to go so long. My first one, years ago, was half as long.
 
Thanks for inviting me, MT Editors! 
 Signature
Science is a way to call the bluff of those who only pretend to knowledge. If we’re true to its values, it can tell us when we’re being lied to. It provides a mid-course correction to our mistakes. - Carl Sagan


   


Posted: 04 April 2016 06:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
Avatar
Jon Marshall
Sr. Member
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Listened to your audio file. Very well spoken. You might have planted some seeds in their heads to actually not DOUBT their DOUBT's.   Your post was not Teaching. It was your feelings, your words.   
 Signature http://www.jonathankmarshall.blogspot.com


   


Posted: 04 April 2016 07:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
Avatar
WinstonSmith
Long Timer
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Joined  2011-09-26
 
  
 
I just finished reading your story over on Mormon Think. I have not had time to listen to the audio.
 
My thoughts are that the Church just opened a "Pandora's Box" --- Will the witch hunts begin?
 
I am going to make a prediction about myself---At some point I will be excommunicated as an apostate---Why? For telling (teaching) my own kids why I believe JS was a "fraud".
 
Could this reallyy happen? I think it can and ultimately will occur  ---Pandora's Box has been opened. 
 Signature
“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”  -Marcus Aurelius


   


Posted: 04 April 2016 07:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
Avatar
tapirrider
Jr. Member
RankRank
Joined  2012-07-01
 
  
 
Thanks for sharing it. 

   


Posted: 04 April 2016 10:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
Avatar
WinstonSmith
Long Timer
RankRankRankRankRank
Joined  2011-09-26
 
  
 
WinstonSmith:
I just finished reading your story over on Mormon Think. I have not had time to listen to the audio.
 
My thoughts are that the Church just opened a "Pandora's Box" --- Will the witch hunts begin?
 
I am going to make a prediction about myself---At some point I will be excommunicated as an apostate---Why? For telling (teaching) my own kids why I believe JS was a "fraud".
 
Could this reallyy happen? I think it can and ultimately will occur  ---Pandora's Box has been opened. 
 
Okay!!! I just finished listening to the audio. Thank you and thanks to Mormon Think for making this available. 
 Signature
“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”  -Marcus Aurelius


   


Posted: 08 April 2016 07:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
Avatar
MormonThink
Long Timer
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Joined  2012-11-28
 
  
 
It was our pleasure Bruce.  FYI, link is here: http://www.mormonthink.com/personalstories/bruce-holt.htm
 
Also, list of other personal stories:  http://www.mormonthink.com/personalstories2.htm
 
and the original page 1: http://www.mormonthink.com/personalstories.htm


   


Posted: 08 April 2016 08:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
Avatar
Lloyd Dobler
Long Timer
RankRankRankRankRank
Joined  2009-07-27
 
  
 
WinstonSmith:
I just finished reading your story over on Mormon Think. I have not had time to listen to the audio.
 
My thoughts are that the Church just opened a "Pandora's Box" --- Will the witch hunts begin?
 
I am going to make a prediction about myself---At some point I will be excommunicated as an apostate---Why? For telling (teaching) my own kids why I believe JS was a "fraud".
 
Could this reallyy happen? I think it can and ultimately will occur  ---Pandora's Box has been opened. 
 You know if that happens Winston.....if the church pushes its way even further into a marriage and into the roles parents and kids, then I think they are going suffer for it.
 
doctrinally, your kids are not your own, they are heavenly fathers.  The church, as heavenly father's steward on earth, would have authority to punish anyone who gets in the way of His children returning to them.
 
they could pull this trigger but they can't predict what the bullet will eventually hit.  i think there are limits, even for the f ing church.  If they started telling bishops to church court guys like you and me, then those bishops are going to find themselves in a back alley knife fight....without a knife.  I don't care how tbm the wife is, i don't see how this ends up helping the church.
 
and if they did do something like this in the future, then it will show just how desperate they really are......
 
my kids are out but jesus, if they pulled that on you, well, you would make them your bitch. 
 
 Signature
Vindicated, I am selfish, I am wrong, I am right
I swear I’m right, swear I knew it all along
And I am flawed
but I am cleaning up so well
I am seeing in me now the things you swore, you saw yourself

Vindicated
Dashboard Confessionalhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDCED-qQExc


   


Posted: 08 April 2016 09:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
Avatar
Lloyd Dobler
Long Timer
RankRankRankRankRank
Joined  2009-07-27
 
  
 
MormonThink:
It was our pleasure Bruce.  FYI, link is here: http://www.mormonthink.com/personalstories/bruce-holt.htm
 
Also, list of other personal stories:  http://www.mormonthink.com/personalstories2.htm
 
and the original page 1: http://www.mormonthink.com/personalstories.htm
 
 Big thanks again to MormonThink.  I continue to send people to your site with great results.  It is impossible to calculate the number of people the MT has helped.  Certainly, it is in the thousands.  With the church now becoming transparant, lol, MT is needed more than ever to keep the church honest or at least help members keep the church honest....and then honestly make decisions about their relationship with the church.
 
I believe the authority of the church is directly tied to their truth claims regarding the restoration.  The church is scrambling now because they can't control their correlated story any longer.  MT empowers sincere members by helping the member cut the connection between the truth claims and the authority of the modern leaders.  Once the connection is cut, the member can then make a more fair decision regarding their church invovlement.  It will always be the right thing to do for members. 
 Signature
Vindicated, I am selfish, I am wrong, I am right
I swear I’m right, swear I knew it all along
And I am flawed
but I am cleaning up so well
I am seeing in me now the things you swore, you saw yourself

Vindicated
Dashboard Confessionalhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDCED-qQExc


   


Posted: 09 April 2016 04:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
Avatar
WinstonSmith
Long Timer
RankRankRankRankRank
Joined  2011-09-26
 
  
 
Lloyd Dobler:
WinstonSmith:
I just finished reading your story over on Mormon Think. I have not had time to listen to the audio.
 
My thoughts are that the Church just opened a "Pandora's Box" --- Will the witch hunts begin?
 
I am going to make a prediction about myself---At some point I will be excommunicated as an apostate---Why? For telling (teaching) my own kids why I believe JS was a "fraud".
 
Could this reallyy happen? I think it can and ultimately will occur  ---Pandora's Box has been opened. 
 You know if that happens Winston.....if the church pushes its way even further into a marriage and into the roles parents and kids, then I think they are going suffer for it.
 
doctrinally, your kids are not your own, they are heavenly fathers.  The church, as heavenly father's steward on earth, would have authority to punish anyone who gets in the way of His children returning to them.
 
they could pull this trigger but they can't predict what the bullet will eventually hit.  i think there are limits, even for the f ing church.  If they started telling bishops to church court guys like you and me, then those bishops are going to find themselves in a back alley knife fight....without a knife.  I don't care how tbm the wife is, i don't see how this ends up helping the church.
 
and if they did do something like this in the future, then it will show just how desperate they really are......
 
my kids are out but jesus, if they pulled that on you, well, you would make them your bitch. 
 
 
When I moved my family from SE Idaho, I was fearful of our local leadership. The bishop and SP were very capable of doing this without direction from SLC. In fact I felt like I was being set up by our bishop.  The Q15, on the facade, have set a precedence that they will not interfere with local leadership when it comes to things like this. Yes, behind the scenes they could be pulling strings, and they also know this gives them plausable deniability.
 
I think John Dehlin is onto something when he talks about "ecclesiastical roulette".  My current bishop, SP and AA70 have no interest in putting me on trial. Then again my approach is different then Bruce Holts. I am using tactics from the Church's own playbook. I subtly plant information that causes questioning with my kids. I help put things on their shelf. I have many tactics that I am trying to employ but if ever questioned, I have plausable deniability.
 
Like you stated, my frustration is the church doctrine that leaves room for me, the father, to be alienated by my family---after all I was only the 'sperm bank'
 Signature
“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”  -Marcus Aurelius


   


Posted: 09 April 2016 09:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
Long Timer
RankRankRankRankRank
Joined  2010-05-22
 
  
 
WinstonSmith:
Lloyd Dobler:
WinstonSmith:
I just finished reading your story over on Mormon Think. I have not had time to listen to the audio.
 
My thoughts are that the Church just opened a "Pandora's Box" --- Will the witch hunts begin?
 
I am going to make a prediction about myself---At some point I will be excommunicated as an apostate---Why? For telling (teaching) my own kids why I believe JS was a "fraud".
 
Could this reallyy happen? I think it can and ultimately will occur  ---Pandora's Box has been opened. 
 You know if that happens Winston.....if the church pushes its way even further into a marriage and into the roles parents and kids, then I think they are going suffer for it.
 
doctrinally, your kids are not your own, they are heavenly fathers.  The church, as heavenly father's steward on earth, would have authority to punish anyone who gets in the way of His children returning to them.
 
they could pull this trigger but they can't predict what the bullet will eventually hit.  i think there are limits, even for the f ing church.  If they started telling bishops to church court guys like you and me, then those bishops are going to find themselves in a back alley knife fight....without a knife.  I don't care how tbm the wife is, i don't see how this ends up helping the church.
 
and if they did do something like this in the future, then it will show just how desperate they really are......
 
my kids are out but jesus, if they pulled that on you, well, you would make them your bitch. 
 
 
When I moved my family from SE Idaho, I was fearful of our local leadership. The bishop and SP were very capable of doing this without direction from SLC. In fact I felt like I was being set up by our bishop.  The Q15, on the facade, have set a precedence that they will not interfere with local leadership when it comes to things like this. Yes, behind the scenes they could be pulling strings, and they also know this gives them plausable deniability.
 
I think John Dehlin is onto something when he talks about "ecclesiastical roulette".  My current bishop, SP and AA70 have no interest in putting me on trial. Then again my approach is different then Bruce Holts. I am using tactics from the Church's own playbook. I subtly plant information that causes questioning with my kids. I help put things on their shelf. I have many tactics that I am trying to employ but if ever questioned, I have plausable deniability.
 
Like you stated, my frustration is the church doctrine that leaves room for me, the father, to be alienated by my family---after all I was only the 'sperm bank'
 The church doctrine leaves room for any family member to be alienated from the family--thrown under the bus--if you will--even a mother or a child.  
              
 
 Signature
I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 09 April 2016 02:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
Avatar
That Will Do
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRank
Joined  2011-04-10
 
  
 
Bruce, I enjoyed listening to the audio recording of your disciplinary court. You were well prepared and your arguments were very articulate and respectful. Your story really resonated with me. 
The other guys in the room weren't prepared. After all you explained to them, their only questions to you were about if you prayed hard enough, and do you support your priesthood leadership. They kept coming back to these two questions.  I kept thinking to myself, "Is this the best they can come up with?"  Very disappointing. 
 
Best wishes!  
 
 


   


Posted: 13 April 2016 07:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
Avatar
MormonThink
Long Timer
RankRankRankRankRank
Joined  2012-11-28
 
  
 
Lloyd Dobler:
MormonThink:
It was our pleasure Bruce.  FYI, link is here: http://www.mormonthink.com/personalstories/bruce-holt.htm
 
Also, list of other personal stories:  http://www.mormonthink.com/personalstories2.htm
 
and the original page 1: http://www.mormonthink.com/personalstories.htm
 
 Big thanks again to MormonThink.  I continue to send people to your site with great results.  It is impossible to calculate the number of people the MT has helped.  Certainly, it is in the thousands.  With the church now becoming transparant, lol, MT is needed more than ever to keep the church honest or at least help members keep the church honest....and then honestly make decisions about their relationship with the church.
 
I believe the authority of the church is directly tied to their truth claims regarding the restoration.  The church is scrambling now because they can't control their correlated story any longer.  MT empowers sincere members by helping the member cut the connection between the truth claims and the authority of the modern leaders.  Once the connection is cut, the member can then make a more fair decision regarding their church invovlement.  It will always be the right thing to do for members. 
 
 Thanks so much for your always kind words Lloyd.  So when are you going to join our wall of infamy with your story?
 


   


Posted: 13 April 2016 07:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
Bruce A Holt
Member
RankRankRank
Joined  2014-04-03
 
  
 
That Will Do:
Bruce, I enjoyed listening to the audio recording of your disciplinary court. You were well prepared and your arguments were very articulate and respectful. Your story really resonated with me. 
The other guys in the room weren't prepared. After all you explained to them, their only questions to you were about if you prayed hard enough, and do you support your priesthood leadership. They kept coming back to these two questions.  I kept thinking to myself, "Is this the best they can come up with?"  Very disappointing. 
 
Best wishes!  
 
 
 
Yeah, they all sang the same tune. Well, there was that one who attempted to trip me up about the Journal of Discourses. Other than that, they were all singing the same song!
 
Thank you for your comments and well wishes! Right back atcha! 
 Signature
Science is a way to call the bluff of those who only pretend to knowledge. If we’re true to its values, it can tell us when we’re being lied to. It provides a mid-course correction to our mistakes. - Carl Sagan


   


            
 
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Our next project
will be announced soon.
Tax exempt status.



 
Logged in: 1
Not logged in: 88
Logged in anonymous: 1



(Joined in last 24 hours) 
Total members: 10242 


My sister escaped and she's poking the hornet nest
by former victim
Missionary run ins
by former victim
I never got an answer
by Winyan
Otterson Is a liar. It Is Betrayal.
by Morethanmo
The Several Facets of Truth
by bradspencer74
Other signs of LDS decline - please add to the list
by Celestial Wedgie
Has anyone been watching "The Story of God" narrated by Morgan Freeman?
by TheDogLady
Comparison of Joseph Smith to Charles Ingalls
by TheDogLady
INTRODUCE YOURSELVES - TAG YOU'RE IT!
by Celestial Wedgie
YBU places Honor Code above safety and security of rape victims.
by WinstonSmith
What's inside
by Matter Unorganized
My story is now over on Mormon Think
by Bruce A Holt
The world has gone mad!!!
by Morethanmo
Man I've been pissed off at the morg lately...
by peace out
A Ray of Hope
by Lloyd Dobler
What else can you call it, but the GREAT MANIPULATION!
by maynardg
One more thing for women
by maynardg
You can leave the church, but the church won't leave you alone: Targeted Assaults!
by maynardg
Science vs. religion
by Celestial Wedgie
2015 statistics
by Celestial Wedgie 

   http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewforum/5/




 





2015 Conference
 "LEAVING A LEGACY"
 October 16-18
 Doubletree Suites
 SLC, Utah





















 


 
Financial Report for 2011 to Date

 
Financial Report for 2010 to Date

 
Financial Report for 2009

 
Twin Falls Newspaper Article

 
Twin Falls Billboard

 
Financial Report for 2009 to Date





 
The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
 [Sound Thinking]
 
Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
 [Peep Stone!]
 
Native American DNA
 [Post-Mormon Mag.]



 
 Coming up May 1’st 2016 - Kristyn Decker to lecture!
 [Southern Utah Pos...] 
 
 SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (4/3)
 [San Francisco Bay...] 
 
 Imprompu get-together
 [Dead Prophets Soc...] 
 
 SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (3/6)
 [San Francisco Bay...] 
 
 Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series- March 6th, 2016 Author Dave Nelson
 [Southern Utah Pos...] 
 
 Open House Meetup: 3/19/16
 [Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
 
 Train ride and picnic Meetup: 2/27/16
 [Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
 
 Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series February 7th, 2016- Joe Rawlins
 [Southern Utah Pos...] 
 
 SF Bay Area Super Bowl Party (Feb 7)
 [San Francisco Bay...] 
 
 Jan 10th, 2016-Southern Utah PostMormons will present an outstanding lecture combo
 [Southern Utah Pos...] 
 
 New Year's Eve Party
 [Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
 
 SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (1/3)
 [San Francisco Bay...] 




Book of Mormon Tories
by Chris Sexton 
Why I am a Better Mother
by antipsicótica 
 Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by Barney 
Resignation Letter to My Family
sam2

Post-mormon Roles
sam2

Post-mormon Roles
former victim

The Book of Mormon Musical comes to South Carolina!
Swearing Elder

Resignation Letter to My Family
INRETROSPECT

Resignation Letter to My Family
oneanother

Utah County CALM meetup for November
BlackSheep2

FACEBOOK INFO
Crissy

FACEBOOK INFO
Barn

October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
Starfleet

October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
alvie

Why I am a Better Mother
by aworkinprogress 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
exmoinaz

SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
owned

The Mormon Mask
by Born Free 
Las Vegas Meetup--Jazz in the Park Saturday May 10 6:30PM
onendagus

Resignation Letter to My Family
ShadowSage

Resignation Letter to My Family
ShadowSage

Guru Busters
by Flora4 
Guru Busters
by Flora4 
Resignation Letter to My Family
Hbush1987

General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
Swearing Elder



 

       
   

  

Home



Our Community






























































































































































Our Library



















Our Exit Stories
 

Member Options














     

    
 


  


 
 Introduction
 For New Visitors
 Mission Statement
 The Best of PostMormon.org
 























  
 


 
 


 
 


 
 


 
 
 















The Community Forum
## Of Mormons, Postmormons, and the Canyon Between
## The Cost of Liberty
## Spiritual Bedrock
## Leaving the Church, But Not Leaving It Alone
##Why Mormons Can’t Understand the Pain of Being Postmormon
## The Lamanite Issue is Not So Much a Matter of Doctrine as it is a Matter of Credibility
## PR Damage Control Team Responds to BoM changes
## Everything Happens for a Reason and Other Myths
## Understanding Homosexuality
## On the Outside Looking in: Surviving the Temple Marriage of a Loved One
## I'm an active Mormon. Is it OK to be here?
## Why People Leave the Church:The VIDEO
## A Recap of Post-Mormon History
## Resources for Those Investigating All Things LDS
Post-Mormon Magazine
##Native American DNA and it's Impact on Mormonism
## Changing Seasons 
##Why I'm a Better Mother, Now That I'm not a Mormon
Sound Thinking Magazine
##The Lost Book of Abraham
##Beyond Belief 2006
Peep Stone Magazine
## Relief Society President Released After Confession
## Nodding off on the Rise with 175th General Conference 
##Molecule Shortage Lead to Halt of Resurrection
Post-Mormon Scrapbook
## Rough Stone Rolling: A Critical Examination
## Personal Accounts of Leaving Mormonism
 

    
  
 


Our next project
will be announced soon.

Tax exempt status.
 



 
 Logged in: 1
 Not logged in: 88
 Logged in anonymous: 1




(Joined in last 24 hours)
 
Total members: 10242 

   
 
My sister escaped and she's poking the hornet nest
by former victim
Missionary run ins
by former victim
I never got an answer
by Winyan
Otterson Is a liar. It Is Betrayal.
by Morethanmo
The Several Facets of Truth
by bradspencer74
Other signs of LDS decline - please add to the list
by Celestial Wedgie
Has anyone been watching "The Story of God" narrated by Morgan Freeman?
by TheDogLady
Comparison of Joseph Smith to Charles Ingalls
by TheDogLady
INTRODUCE YOURSELVES - TAG YOU'RE IT!
by Celestial Wedgie
YBU places Honor Code above safety and security of rape victims.
by WinstonSmith
What's inside
by Matter Unorganized
My story is now over on Mormon Think
by Bruce A Holt
The world has gone mad!!!
by Morethanmo
Man I've been pissed off at the morg lately...
by peace out
A Ray of Hope
by Lloyd Dobler
What else can you call it, but the GREAT MANIPULATION!
by maynardg
One more thing for women
by maynardg
You can leave the church, but the church won't leave you alone: Targeted Assaults!
by maynardg
Science vs. religion
by Celestial Wedgie
2015 statistics
by Celestial Wedgie




 



  http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/home




 





2015 Conference
 "LEAVING A LEGACY"
 October 16-18
 Doubletree Suites
 SLC, Utah





















 


 
Financial Report for 2011 to Date

 
Financial Report for 2010 to Date

 
Financial Report for 2009

 
Twin Falls Newspaper Article

 
Twin Falls Billboard

 
Financial Report for 2009 to Date





 
The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
 [Sound Thinking]
 
Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
 [Peep Stone!]
 
Native American DNA
 [Post-Mormon Mag.]



 
 Coming up May 1’st 2016 - Kristyn Decker to lecture!
 [Southern Utah Pos...] 
 
 SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (4/3)
 [San Francisco Bay...] 
 
 Imprompu get-together
 [Dead Prophets Soc...] 
 
 SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (3/6)
 [San Francisco Bay...] 
 
 Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series- March 6th, 2016 Author Dave Nelson
 [Southern Utah Pos...] 
 
 Open House Meetup: 3/19/16
 [Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
 
 Train ride and picnic Meetup: 2/27/16
 [Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
 
 Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series February 7th, 2016- Joe Rawlins
 [Southern Utah Pos...] 
 
 SF Bay Area Super Bowl Party (Feb 7)
 [San Francisco Bay...] 
 
 Jan 10th, 2016-Southern Utah PostMormons will present an outstanding lecture combo
 [Southern Utah Pos...] 
 
 New Year's Eve Party
 [Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
 
 SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (1/3)
 [San Francisco Bay...] 




Book of Mormon Tories
by Chris Sexton 
Why I am a Better Mother
by antipsicótica 
 Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by Barney 
Resignation Letter to My Family
sam2

Post-mormon Roles
sam2

Post-mormon Roles
former victim

The Book of Mormon Musical comes to South Carolina!
Swearing Elder

Resignation Letter to My Family
INRETROSPECT

Resignation Letter to My Family
oneanother

Utah County CALM meetup for November
BlackSheep2

FACEBOOK INFO
Crissy

FACEBOOK INFO
Barn

October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
Starfleet

October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
alvie

Why I am a Better Mother
by aworkinprogress 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
exmoinaz

SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
owned

The Mormon Mask
by Born Free 
Las Vegas Meetup--Jazz in the Park Saturday May 10 6:30PM
onendagus

Resignation Letter to My Family
ShadowSage

Resignation Letter to My Family
ShadowSage

Guru Busters
by Flora4 
Guru Busters
by Flora4 
Resignation Letter to My Family
Hbush1987

General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
Swearing Elder



 

       
   

  

Home



Our Community






























































































































































Our Library



















Our Exit Stories
 

Member Options














     

    
 


  


 
 Introduction
 For New Visitors
 Mission Statement
 The Best of PostMormon.org
 























    
 

Click the above icon to go to The Community Discussion Forum, which is the most active area on this website. New members are encouraged to jump in and participate in the discussions. As you do, our House Rules ask that you remain courteous and respectful of others.
  
 
 
Click the above icon to visit our World Map where you can connect with other Post-Mormons in your area. If your part of the world doesn't have a map pin, please consider starting a chapter or becoming an official PostMo' contact person for your area. To find out how, click here and follow the instructions.
  
 
 
Clicking this icon will take you to a page in our Post-Mormon Scrapbook, that lists personal accounts of people who have left Mormonism. Many new members love reading these accounts because it helps them realize that there really are others out there who understand, and can relate to their experience.
  
 
 
The Post-Mormon Community relys on donations from people like you to continue its public awareness program. Whether you can contribute $5, $5,000, or more, you are helping us reach out to others like you, but who still think they are all alone. The Post-Mormon Community is a 501(c)(3) tax exempt organization.
  
  
  


















































    
  
 


Our next project
will be announced soon.

Tax exempt status.
 



 
 Logged in: 1
 Not logged in: 88
 Logged in anonymous: 1




(Joined in last 24 hours)
 
Total members: 10242 

   
 
My sister escaped and she's poking the hornet nest
by former victim
Missionary run ins
by former victim
I never got an answer
by Winyan
Otterson Is a liar. It Is Betrayal.
by Morethanmo
The Several Facets of Truth
by bradspencer74
Other signs of LDS decline - please add to the list
by Celestial Wedgie
Has anyone been watching "The Story of God" narrated by Morgan Freeman?
by TheDogLady
Comparison of Joseph Smith to Charles Ingalls
by TheDogLady
INTRODUCE YOURSELVES - TAG YOU'RE IT!
by Celestial Wedgie
YBU places Honor Code above safety and security of rape victims.
by WinstonSmith
What's inside
by Matter Unorganized
My story is now over on Mormon Think
by Bruce A Holt
The world has gone mad!!!
by Morethanmo
Man I've been pissed off at the morg lately...
by peace out
A Ray of Hope
by Lloyd Dobler
What else can you call it, but the GREAT MANIPULATION!
by maynardg
One more thing for women
by maynardg
You can leave the church, but the church won't leave you alone: Targeted Assaults!
by maynardg
Science vs. religion
by Celestial Wedgie
2015 statistics
by Celestial Wedgie




 



  http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/home




 





2015 Conference
 "LEAVING A LEGACY"
 October 16-18
 Doubletree Suites
 SLC, Utah





















 


 
Financial Report for 2011 to Date

 
Financial Report for 2010 to Date

 
Financial Report for 2009

 
Twin Falls Newspaper Article

 
Twin Falls Billboard

 
Financial Report for 2009 to Date





 
The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
 [Sound Thinking]
 
Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
 [Peep Stone!]
 
Native American DNA
 [Post-Mormon Mag.]



 
 Coming up May 1’st 2016 - Kristyn Decker to lecture!
 [Southern Utah Pos...] 
 
 SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (4/3)
 [San Francisco Bay...] 
 
 Imprompu get-together
 [Dead Prophets Soc...] 
 
 SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (3/6)
 [San Francisco Bay...] 
 
 Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series- March 6th, 2016 Author Dave Nelson
 [Southern Utah Pos...] 
 
 Open House Meetup: 3/19/16
 [Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
 
 Train ride and picnic Meetup: 2/27/16
 [Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
 
 Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series February 7th, 2016- Joe Rawlins
 [Southern Utah Pos...] 
 
 SF Bay Area Super Bowl Party (Feb 7)
 [San Francisco Bay...] 
 
 Jan 10th, 2016-Southern Utah PostMormons will present an outstanding lecture combo
 [Southern Utah Pos...] 
 
 New Year's Eve Party
 [Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
 
 SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (1/3)
 [San Francisco Bay...] 




Book of Mormon Tories
by Chris Sexton 
Why I am a Better Mother
by antipsicótica 
 Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by Barney 
Resignation Letter to My Family
sam2

Post-mormon Roles
sam2

Post-mormon Roles
former victim

The Book of Mormon Musical comes to South Carolina!
Swearing Elder

Resignation Letter to My Family
INRETROSPECT

Resignation Letter to My Family
oneanother

Utah County CALM meetup for November
BlackSheep2

FACEBOOK INFO
Crissy

FACEBOOK INFO
Barn

October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
Starfleet

October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
alvie

Why I am a Better Mother
by aworkinprogress 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
exmoinaz

SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
owned

The Mormon Mask
by Born Free 
Las Vegas Meetup--Jazz in the Park Saturday May 10 6:30PM
onendagus

Resignation Letter to My Family
ShadowSage

Resignation Letter to My Family
ShadowSage

Guru Busters
by Flora4 
Guru Busters
by Flora4 
Resignation Letter to My Family
Hbush1987

General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
Swearing Elder



 

       
   

  

Home



Our Community






























































































































































Our Library



















Our Exit Stories
 

Member Options














     

    
 


  


 
 Introduction
 For New Visitors
 Mission Statement
 The Best of PostMormon.org
 























  
 


 
 


 
 


 
 


 
 
 


The mission of PostMormon.org is to provide and maintain systems that facilitate the growth and development of a safe and supportive community for those who leave or are considering leaving the Mormon Church.

Welcome home!











































    
  
 


Our next project
will be announced soon.

Tax exempt status.
 



 
 Logged in: 1
 Not logged in: 88
 Logged in anonymous: 1




(Joined in last 24 hours)
 
Total members: 10242 

   
 
My sister escaped and she's poking the hornet nest
by former victim
Missionary run ins
by former victim
I never got an answer
by Winyan
Otterson Is a liar. It Is Betrayal.
by Morethanmo
The Several Facets of Truth
by bradspencer74
Other signs of LDS decline - please add to the list
by Celestial Wedgie
Has anyone been watching "The Story of God" narrated by Morgan Freeman?
by TheDogLady
Comparison of Joseph Smith to Charles Ingalls
by TheDogLady
INTRODUCE YOURSELVES - TAG YOU'RE IT!
by Celestial Wedgie
YBU places Honor Code above safety and security of rape victims.
by WinstonSmith
What's inside
by Matter Unorganized
My story is now over on Mormon Think
by Bruce A Holt
The world has gone mad!!!
by Morethanmo
Man I've been pissed off at the morg lately...
by peace out
A Ray of Hope
by Lloyd Dobler
What else can you call it, but the GREAT MANIPULATION!
by maynardg
One more thing for women
by maynardg
You can leave the church, but the church won't leave you alone: Targeted Assaults!
by maynardg
Science vs. religion
by Celestial Wedgie
2015 statistics
by Celestial Wedgie




 



  http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/home





 





2015 Conference
 "LEAVING A LEGACY"
 October 16-18
 Doubletree Suites
 SLC, Utah





















 


 
Financial Report for 2011 to Date

 
Financial Report for 2010 to Date

 
Financial Report for 2009

 
Twin Falls Newspaper Article

 
Twin Falls Billboard

 
Financial Report for 2009 to Date





 
The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
 [Sound Thinking]
 
Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
 [Peep Stone!]
 
Native American DNA
 [Post-Mormon Mag.]



 
 Coming up May 1’st 2016 - Kristyn Decker to lecture!
 [Southern Utah Pos...] 
 
 SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (4/3)
 [San Francisco Bay...] 
 
 Imprompu get-together
 [Dead Prophets Soc...] 
 
 SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (3/6)
 [San Francisco Bay...] 
 
 Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series- March 6th, 2016 Author Dave Nelson
 [Southern Utah Pos...] 
 
 Open House Meetup: 3/19/16
 [Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
 
 Train ride and picnic Meetup: 2/27/16
 [Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
 
 Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series February 7th, 2016- Joe Rawlins
 [Southern Utah Pos...] 
 
 SF Bay Area Super Bowl Party (Feb 7)
 [San Francisco Bay...] 
 
 Jan 10th, 2016-Southern Utah PostMormons will present an outstanding lecture combo
 [Southern Utah Pos...] 
 
 New Year's Eve Party
 [Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
 
 SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (1/3)
 [San Francisco Bay...] 




Book of Mormon Tories
by Chris Sexton 
Why I am a Better Mother
by antipsicótica 
 Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by Barney 
Resignation Letter to My Family
sam2

Post-mormon Roles
sam2

Post-mormon Roles
former victim

The Book of Mormon Musical comes to South Carolina!
Swearing Elder

Resignation Letter to My Family
INRETROSPECT

Resignation Letter to My Family
oneanother

Utah County CALM meetup for November
BlackSheep2

FACEBOOK INFO
Crissy

FACEBOOK INFO
Barn

October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
Starfleet

October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
alvie

Why I am a Better Mother
by aworkinprogress 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
exmoinaz

SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
owned

The Mormon Mask
by Born Free 
Las Vegas Meetup--Jazz in the Park Saturday May 10 6:30PM
onendagus

Resignation Letter to My Family
ShadowSage

Resignation Letter to My Family
ShadowSage

Guru Busters
by Flora4 
Guru Busters
by Flora4 
Resignation Letter to My Family
Hbush1987

General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
Swearing Elder



 

       
   

  

Home



Our Community






























































































































































Our Library



















Our Exit Stories
 

Member Options














     

    
 


  


 
 Introduction
 For New Visitors
 Mission Statement
 The Best of PostMormon.org
 

 Post-Mormons are members of a rapidly growing community of families and individuals who have voluntarily left Mormonism. We choose to no longer base our lives, and the lives of our children, on "truths" dictated by others. We believe that truth is freely available to any honest, diligent seeker regardless of creed, age, race or sexual orientation.

     
We have felt the butterfly’s metamorphosis. Forces that well up from within have compelled us to grow beyond the limits of Mormonism. And so we have become a loosely knit community of friends and support groups, and endeavor to help those like us who also feel the need to explore meaning, purpose and life beyond Mormonism. We celebrate the wonderful diversity of life as we experience as fully as we can our physical and cultural reality. We perceive ourselves as part of a human tapestry that is rich beyond our ability to comprehend, and wonder at this miracle. We have come to realize that there are more ways to do good, and be good, than we can number. What we once perceived as the “strait and narrow way” has broadened to include all ways that promote individual and collective well-being.
 We do not apologize for our inability to fully understand reality or the nature of our own existence. As Albert Einstein said:

"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed."

 Some ask if we are anti-Mormon. Our answer is, no, we are not. We feel we are not because we acknowledge and want to keep all the good that came into our lives through Mormonism. We feel we are not because it's not our purpose to encourage people to leave the Church. We feel we are not because many of our family and friends are Mormons and we certainly are not anti-family and friends. But as an organization, we are open about the Church's misrepresentations and the way in which its dogmatism and authoritarianism have proven detrimental to many individuals, families, and communities. As Winston Churchill once said, "Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things."
 We do not advocate another form of Mormonism or any other religion and believe that loving one's neighbor begins with giving up the claim to have special access to truth. We feel that arrogance attends the illusion of “knowing the truth” and that such arrogance leads to a narrow-minded tribalism that impedes personal growth and fosters a divided community. Some of us choose to continue their spiritual journey through traditional religious means and others of us identify ourselves as atheistic or agnostic. We respect these choices as we do those of the well-informed among our family and friends who choose to remain traditional Mormons. We feel sad for those who choose ignorance of any kind and strongly disagree with the few within Mormonism who encourage ignorance and spread misinformation.
 Life is wonderful. We are overcome by feelings of gratitude for the glimpses we occasionally have of its majesty and mystery. And we revel in the opportunity to connect with each other and those of many other walks of life in ways more satisfying than anything we had previously experienced. We would welcome the opportunity to get to know you and invite you to join in the conversation in The Community Forum on this site.
 Sincerely,


  
 


 
 


 
 


 
 


 
 
 


















































    
  
 


Our next project
will be announced soon.

Tax exempt status.
 



 
 Logged in: 1
 Not logged in: 88
 Logged in anonymous: 1




(Joined in last 24 hours)
 
Total members: 10242 

   
 
My sister escaped and she's poking the hornet nest
by former victim
Missionary run ins
by former victim
I never got an answer
by Winyan
Otterson Is a liar. It Is Betrayal.
by Morethanmo
The Several Facets of Truth
by bradspencer74
Other signs of LDS decline - please add to the list
by Celestial Wedgie
Has anyone been watching "The Story of God" narrated by Morgan Freeman?
by TheDogLady
Comparison of Joseph Smith to Charles Ingalls
by TheDogLady
INTRODUCE YOURSELVES - TAG YOU'RE IT!
by Celestial Wedgie
YBU places Honor Code above safety and security of rape victims.
by WinstonSmith
What's inside
by Matter Unorganized
My story is now over on Mormon Think
by Bruce A Holt
The world has gone mad!!!
by Morethanmo
Man I've been pissed off at the morg lately...
by peace out
A Ray of Hope
by Lloyd Dobler
What else can you call it, but the GREAT MANIPULATION!
by maynardg
One more thing for women
by maynardg
You can leave the church, but the church won't leave you alone: Targeted Assaults!
by maynardg
Science vs. religion
by Celestial Wedgie
2015 statistics
by Celestial Wedgie




 



  http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/home