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Are the Governing Baboons master manipulators or are they just doing their job?
by atomant 2 days ago 16 Replies latest a day ago   watchtower beliefs
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atomant
atomant 2 days ago
ld love to be a fly on the wall when the GB have a round the table conference.l can only imagine .l wonder which one came up with the idea of the overlapping generation and how the others reacted to it.The light was shining brightly that day.

 +2 / -0
baker
baker 2 days ago
At least one of them knows that it is a man-made tale used to cover up another man-made tale that so many have fallen for.
 
James Mixon
James Mixon 2 days ago

Round table conference>> Morris "Ok brothers let's give thanks to Jehovah".
Snickering from a few of the GB members.
Morris: Ok Jackson what's so funny?
Jackson: Are you serious, Jehovah don't give a shit what we do.
Herd: Excuse you.
Lett: Hell I have a program, don't start that crap again Jackson. You screwed up
in Australia you dumb ass.
Sanderson: OK Brothers lets take it easy.
Morris: Who the hell are you.
Splane thinking: Man if the r&f could see us now.
Losch: Are we setting a date for the end times today, Jesus Christ let's get on with it.
I haven't taken my meds yet.
Morris: Did anyone take their meds this morning.
Everyone head for the door.
Just think this guys are making major decisions without their medication.
How did Morris know the Brothers didn't take their meds, Herd jumped up on
the table and pull his pants down and showed his ass.
 +3 / -0
atomant
atomant 2 days ago
Yes well thats another thought considering the average age of the GB.What type of meds are they taking.Can the meds affect decision making.

 
James Mixon
James Mixon 2 days ago

Yes, I would love to see the GB take a insanity test. Questions from the test,
do you think that you are immortal? Have you ever had a meaningful conversation with a
inanimate object? Do you consider everybody except JW's as evil?
Do you believe God only speak to you?
 +4 / -0
Listener
Listener 2 days ago

There is no bible backing for this idea and it is interesting to note how Splane tries to overcome this problem. In his 2015 JW Broadcasting monthly broadcast he says
Now if you were asked by someone to identify a scripture that tells us what a generation is, what scripture would you turn to? I'll give you a moment to think about that. My choice is Exodus Chapter 1 verse 6 "Joseph eventually dies and also all his brothers and all that generation"
Note that he takes it for granted that the listener accepts this new concept but then invites them to try and find a scripture themselves that backs it up. Basically what's happening here is that the concept must be accepted and a search in the scriptures is required to support it. This itself is a backwards way of thinking when you profess to use the bible as a basis of your teachings, letting the bible interpret itself. Rather what they have done is come up with the idea and manipulated what the bible is saying to fit that teaching.
Then he tells us that 'his choice' is Exodus 1:6 and proceeds to try to make it fit to the idea. He's a GB member that supposedly collaborated with the other members to come up with this interpretation (or at the very least, supported the majority vote in accepting it) and yet when it comes to supporting it with scripture, he uses a text which is his own choice.
The bottom line is, the r&f must accept the idea but they are allowed to come up with or twist any scripture of their choice to make it fit. Brilliant, especially when there is no such scripture.
 +5 / -0
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 2 days ago
As there are people who are still alive who were alive in 1914 I dont know why they need an overlapping generation idea. As they do need this idea I can only think that they know the end isn't that close and changes take time so maybe they are doing their best to make changes which seem big but not as big as where they need to get to and so are just doing their job trying to protect peoples faith while correcting the past.
 
jookbeard
jookbeard a day ago
I keep hearing that there is one of them just going along with the scam and who knows its all a fraud,is it Herd?
 
fulano
fulano a day ago

Someone must have heard about economic OLG
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overlapping_generations_model

 
SecretSlaveClass
SecretSlaveClass a day ago
I don't believe for a moment any of them believe their bullshit. Certainly if GJ really believed or had faith in the fact that he was one of Jokehovah's chosen he wouldn't have hesitated confirming it to the ARC. After all, if you firmly believe or have faith that you are one of Dog's chosen, why would you be afraid to answer to the affirmative before mere mortals when you have the Alpha and Omega on your side? Then you have Tight Pants Tony going on about .... tight pants. Even the political in fighting during Franz's tenure proves it's a man made power game. Yes folks, it's all about the power. complete, unadulterated megalomania.
 +1 / -0

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Are the Governing Baboons master manipulators or are they just doing their job?
by atomant 2 days ago 16 Replies latest a day ago   watchtower beliefs
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DesirousOfChange
DesirousOfChange a day ago

I don't believe for a moment any of them believe their bullshit.
I've only met one of the present members of the GB, but had met and had discussions with a couple who have since died. I feel that they were definitely sincere in their beliefs and what they were doing and the "role" they had been "assigned".
Is it possible that they are/were that delusional? Yes.
I base that on the fact that I, too, was that delusional for many, many years.
I admit though that at least a few of them now must be wondering why their magic Holy Spirit communication system is failing them so badly. Isn't is obvious to all of us, and hopefully some who are still "in", that the GB has painted them selves into a corner and there is no good way out. They would probably like to dig up F Franz and choke him since he is said to be responsible for all these pearls of wisdom about the generation and the End Times failed forecast, etc etc.
Now the GB 2.0 is left holding the bag looking like dumbasses and trying to find their way out without getting wet paint on their feet.
Doc

 +1 / -0
sparky1
sparky1 a day ago

"Are the Governing Baboons master manipulators or are they just doing their job?' - atomant
Your answer is contained in your question. It is THE JOB of the Governing Baboons to be MASTER MANIPULATORS.
 +2 / -0
SecretSlaveClass
SecretSlaveClass a day ago

DOC:
many a used car salesman are masters at portraying sincerity too. Judging character at their words and face value is how we get trapped in cults to begin with. Paying attention to them outside their comfort zone or how they change their story .... now that's a long term assessment offering interesting conclusions.
 
freemindfade
freemindfade a day ago

I don't honestly believe they have any kind of grand scheme.
I think its more like this when a cult/movement/idea takes on a life of its own.



 +1 / -0
OUTLAW
OUTLAW a day ago


Are the Governing Baboons master manipulators or are they just doing their job?
Does anybody outside the JW`s ..
Really believe people like Stephen Lett are in Charge of the Watchtower??!!..
.

................* Why Am I Here?*...............................................*Uh-Oh!*
............*Did I have Breakfast?*.........................*I Don`t Think That was a Fart*

Image result for Watchtower stephen Lett...Image result for Watchtower stephen Lett
 +2 / -1
baker
baker a day ago
An Analogy I think of is when you get an invitation to go get a nice gift, but you have to listen to a timeshare pitch. You say to your partner, were only here to get the free gift, but as you listen to the BS, you get sucked into the half truths they are spouting and buy into the timeshare. Later on, you wake up and realize you've been had. Good thing they give you a 3 day recension period to back out.
 
elderINewton
elderINewton a day ago

Too funny outlaw!!
If they didn't believe it, they likely would not keep hammering or doubling down on control. They are afraid to loose what they have. If you had everyone else telling you were the King of Saipan, over time you'd likely believe it as well.
Delusion goes multiple directions.

 

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Topic Summary
ld love to be a fly on the wall when the gb have a round the table conference.l can only imagine .l wonder which one came up with the idea of the overlapping generation and how the others reacted to it.the light was shining brightly that day.



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by Bob Loblaw a month ago



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Would you be a GB member if you were asked ?
by atomant 21 hours ago 16 Replies latest an hour ago   watchtower beliefs
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atomant
atomant 21 hours ago

Off course you need to think back to when you were a JW to answer this question honestly and properly.But hypothetically if you had the spirituality and knowledge and was approached to be appointed as a GB member would you have taken on the position?And if you did what changes would you recommend ?

j

 
Village Idiot
Village Idiot 21 hours ago
What? Do you think for one moment that I would sabotage the organization by becoming a GB member?

 
DesirousOfChange
DesirousOfChange 17 hours ago

Hell yes!
I love flying First Class to exotic places to deliver worthless, dull discourses that everyone will swoon over as they line up to kiss my. . . . ring(?) and get their selfie photo with me.
Doc

 
berrygerry
berrygerry 17 hours ago
If I get to choose the rest of the gang.

 +1 / -0
DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG 17 hours ago

Yep. I would report directly to Angus Stewart.
DD
 +2 / -0
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 16 hours ago

I have too much personal integrity to be a lying corrupt leader for a bogus religious publishing house.

 
James Mixon
James Mixon 16 hours ago

Heck yeah. You will be in the most holy place on the face of the earth if you believe
the BS...
 
Finkelstein
Finkelstein 16 hours ago

...........but then again I would have my hands on millions of dollars and get to travel all around the world getting my ass kissed wherever I go ........uummmm ????

 
Listener
Listener 14 hours ago
I think there would be a number of Elders who would not accept, but these are the ones that don't believe they are anointed as per the WT definition.
It takes a very delusional person to think that they have this 'special calling' above all other Christians and it is only them that could even be considered to be appointed a GB member.
 +1 / -0
atomant
atomant 13 hours ago
Yes delusional just like the partakers at the memorial.

 

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Would you be a GB member if you were asked ?
by atomant 21 hours ago 16 Replies latest an hour ago   watchtower beliefs
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freddo
freddo 6 hours ago

I would be "a helper" if and only if my governing body "Magnificent 7" could be:
1. Judith Sheindlin (To sentence the old governing body to everlasting trolley work)
2. Angus Stewart (Sharp as a tack and a bit of thinking woman's crumpet for you girls)
3. Peter MacLellan (Iron fist in a velvet glove with a mind like a trap)
4. Barbara Anderson (Obviously)
5. Candace Conti (Well, also obviously)
6. Prince Philip
(gotta have one cantankerous old bastard with a bit of WW2 experience!)
7. Bear Grylls
(to oversee some decent outdoor fun for the kids and teenagers)




 
atomant
atomant 6 hours ago
Nice line up freddo ,Bear grylls would set the current gb straight probably all have heart attacks .

 
Doubtfully Yours
Doubtfully Yours 5 hours ago

The equivalent of a CEO at a major US company.  Heck yeah!!! Only a fool wouldn't!
It is not personal, only business. Those cats live the dream, luxury, all expenses paid, riches galore... THE VERY BEST OF IT ALL!!!
DY
 
punkofnice
punkofnice 5 hours ago

If I was a JW then, Yes. however, if I woke up from the JW mind control there'd be hell to pay.
If now, Yes.ONLY IF - I could give the other GB members grief. If I had the power to change the 2 witness rule, shunning and blood transfusions (to name my top 3 wbt$ hated things). Even if the corporation went bankrupt, it'd be fine.
 
blondie
blondie 4 hours ago

Never declared as anointed by me
I'm a woman...can be anointed but not GB
Even if the WTS asked me, what back story would they have for the rank and file.
 
Crazyguy
Crazyguy an hour ago
Yes I would. It would be a great opportunity to try and bring some needed changes to the cult.
 
Ucantnome
Ucantnome an hour ago
no. i wouldn't carry the microphone when i was a witness.
 

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off course you need to think back to when you were a jw to answer this question honestly and properly.but hypothetically if you had the spirituality and knowledge and was approached to be appointed as a gb member would you have taken on the position?and if you did what changes would you recommend ?.
j.



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Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
What Jehovah's Witnesses believe and why they do what they do
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wifibandit
5
Updates to Public Talk Outlines 2 & 3
by wifibandit in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 2 hours ago
will you be a survivor of the last days?.

serving with jehovah’s unified organization.

move ahead with jehovah’s unified organization.

wifibandit
wifibandit
alcyone
an hour ago
apocalypse
33
NEW BLOOD CARD w/ FORCED COMPLIANCE also LEGALISM
by apocalypse in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 5 hours ago
i have looked around and i don't see this covered, so i am starting a thread.. 1) the new "blood card" goes beyond being just a "blood card".. 2) a new edict concerning compliance.. pay attention to the changes.. first, the new card is termed "advance decision to refuse specified medical treatment".

the big change with the card itself is that it includes an 'override' of your "power of attorney".

this is huge.

Esse quam videri
DATA-DOG
Pistoff
5 minutes ago
I am a Bible Student
17
JW to be banned in Russia soon?
by I am a Bible Student in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 6 hours ago
i saw this on jw.org today:.

freddo
AndersonsInfo
DJS
2 hours ago
Esse quam videri
Famous quotes and statements that could have been said by members of the Governing Body
by Esse quam videri in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 17 hours ago
1] on the waterfront by terry  "... i coulda had class.

i coulda been a contender.

i coulda been somebody, instead of a bum, which is what i am, let's face it..."

elbib
5
According to the Bible, GB is committing an unforgivable sin
by elbib in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 18 hours ago
“the soul that does something deliberately [footnote says “with uplifted hand”] whether he is native or an alien resident, he speaking abusively of jehovah’s word, in that case that soul should be cut off from among his people.” (numbers 15:30).

according to this verse, acting with “high-handedness” and “speaking abusively of jehovah’s word” constitute disfellowshipping offence.

1) “high-handedness” is something that jws themselves silently experience from jb, hence require no witness or proof.

Skedaddle
Ucantnome
Finkelstein
an hour ago
atomant
16
Would you be a GB member if you were asked ?
by atomant in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 21 hours ago
off course you need to think back to when you were a jw to answer this question honestly and properly.but hypothetically if you had the spirituality and knowledge and was approached to be appointed as a gb member would you have taken on the position?and if you did what changes would you recommend ?.

j.

blondie
Crazyguy
Ucantnome
an hour ago
atomant
16
Are the Governing Baboons master manipulators or are they just doing their job?
by atomant in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 2 days ago
ld love to be a fly on the wall when the gb have a round the table conference.l can only imagine .l wonder which one came up with the idea of the overlapping generation and how the others reacted to it.the light was shining brightly that day.

OUTLAW
baker
elderINewton
a day ago
iwasblind
6
JW TV April - more mind control rubbish
by iwasblind in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 2 days ago
hi it has been a while since i posted.

sorry this is a rant.. to be honest i have been on a journey - nearly faded but i won't elaborate until i can.. i just watched april's broadcast.

since when do we have "hollywood" style movie previews?

freemindfade
DATA-DOG
Listener
13 hours ago
freemindfade
40
Politically Correct Wasteland
by freemindfade in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 2 days ago
this was a comment i made from another post, but i would like to hear some people discuss this.

i know the social justice warriors will scream i'm some sort of trump supporter for what i say even though i don't agree with his ideas and no i am not voting for him... i accept this is a go to for them.. i think we have fallen into a pc vacuum.. criticizing someones religion = racism!.

telling someone to not be so sensitive = misogyny!.

cofty
freemindfade
Landy
13 hours ago
Billzfan23
5
Military service in Mexico and party affiliation in Malawi... Any letters from BOE?
by Billzfan23 in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 2 days ago
does anyone have a copy of a letter to the boe in mexico or malawi from the 80's/90's - (it can be in spanish or some other language) from back in those days regarding organizational policy and direction?

of course the cult teaches that it's a sin to be involved in politics and the military.

in mexico - every young man was expected to complete a year of military service.

stuckinarut2
Billzfan23
SafeAtHome
2 days ago
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9
Help Keep IT Going, write your newspaper.
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The Protestants are a bigger Whore than the Catholics!!
by gumby in Watchtower Society / JW.org
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What is the Truth? How do you Define it?
by Amazing 7 years ago 68 Replies latest 7 years ago   jw friends
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Amazing
Amazing 7 years ago

JWs teach that 'accurate knowledge' is the definition of truth. They add to this by saying that the 'conduct' of average church goers also identifies them as not being in the 'truth.' And, they define their 'organization' as being the Truth, because they are a clean people who are doing right works, and teaching accurately. They define what they consider correct doctrine, no trinity, no hell, no soul, no heaven for most people, no birthday cake, no voting, no politics, no war, no blood, no association outside the religion, no sassing the Elders, no sports, no school dances, and no smoking.
Ex-JWs sometimes impose variations of this definition upon other religions ... especially Catholicism ... where one can enjoy a piece of B-day cake, have a drink, and enjoy a fine cigar ... and those funny dressed Bishops, and the Catholic Church does this or that or whatever ... and don't forget the Inquisition ... and there you have it ... Catholics do not have the truth either.
Some Christians define Jesus as the Truth (according to Jesus own words - good) and thus reject all Churches. They in effect become their own Pope of a Church of One Person. What does Jesus being the truth mean about truth? How is Jesus the Truth?
Catholics define truth as Jesus - he is the way, the truth and the life ... and what that means to a Catholic is that all Jesus did and said that he taught orally, and passed on to the Apostles, who in turn passed on the same oral teaching and tradition to the disciples. Jesus gave the Apostles authority (not to rule or lord it over) but to pass on the sacraments and his teachings. Catholics make mistakes, sin, and do both good and some do harm ... Catholics do not claim to be more than human sinners, and the Church is where most fine healing.
Aside from Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy, no other churches can trace their tradition back to the early Church (The Apostles) in this way. Most non-Catholic Churches simply refer to the Bible as their sole and central foundation. We see how the Catholic and Orthodox faiths have remain essentially unchanged and united ... whereas the 'Bible" oriented Churches and Individuals, have all gone off in all sorts of directions ... and we see the extremes found in groups like the JWs.
Catholics do accept that elements of the Christian faith is found in the various non-Catholic churches ... and that the salvation of individual Christians in various Churches, including the JWs, and Mormons, Adventists, and others, is dependant upon God and the individual's faith in Christ ... notwithstanding, the liturgy, sacramental validity, and teaching of non-Catholic churches is not complete ... not necessarily false, just incomplete.
What say you? What is truth to you ... how do you define truth ... does it even matter to you?
 
ex-nj-jw
ex-nj-jw 7 years ago

IMO, truth and religion should not be in the same sentance.
nj
 
garybuss
garybuss 7 years ago

What is the Truth? How do you Define it?
Reality.

 
drwtsn32
drwtsn32 7 years ago

Reality.
Exactly.
 
Amazing
Amazing 7 years ago

Define "reality" ... what is it? And why should it be considered 'truth?' ... Are we possibly mixing science and religion? Can we not have faith-based, or religious-based 'truth' as something different than say, scientific 'truth' or courtroom 'truth' ... are we confusing 'truth' with 'facts.'
Facts gives us information ... interpretation of facts leads to scientific theory ... or courtroom proof of the truth ... or philosophical truth.
If truth is 'reality' than is not Jesus Christ, God the ultimate reality?
What say you?
 
journey-on
journey-on 7 years ago

My definition is that truth is that which can only be found in bits and pieces. The whole Truth cannot be known because there is always something else unseen and indefinable within our current framework of knowledge. Truth is something that is revealed in increments like pieces of a huge puzzle that is constantly being formed anew. That which you can see, taste, touch, hear, or smell is just a very small part of what is real. Science has found bits and pieces that were once unknown and incomprehensible and did not fit into humanity's description of reality. So, both Truth and Reality are constantly being refined and redefined.
 
mouthy
mouthy 7 years ago

Out for an argument Amazing??? Truth in MY opinion is Jesus Christ.
I believe he is the Creator. He is a GOD of LOVE!
I dont believe all in the Bible. I believe MEN!!!! Like your self
wanted followers & added a few things to make it "sound" as if we were
following Jesus.
Tell me a religion that hasnt caused problems. ANY RELIGION!!!??
I realize I am a very poor excuse for a Christian.
That is why HE died for me. Because HE knew I couldnt do it alone &
needed HIM!!!! I do ! I have to ask forgiveness morning, noon ,& night
Cos I am a great sinner. But he LOVES me.
 
compound complex
compound complex 7 years ago

A Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom
Thomas Jefferson
[...] truth is great and will prevail if left to herself; that she is the proper and sufficient antagonist to error,
 and has nothing to fear from the conflict unless by human interposition disarmed of her natural weapons,
 free argument and debate; errors ceasing to be dangerous when it is permitted freely to contradict them.

Not a definition of Truth per se but an acknowledgement that error [propaganda contrary to established fact?] must be contradicted.
CoCo's Still Learning
 
Amazing
Amazing 7 years ago

Mouthy ... the only difference between what you and I are saying is that your are a Christian, but have no particular affiliation with a denomination ... and I affiliate with the Catholic Church ... I have no disagreement with what you said ... no argument here.
CoCO ... very good indeed! I like the quote ... and it is very appropriate here. Thanks!
 
quietlyleaving
quietlyleaving 7 years ago


My definition is that truth is that which can only be found in bits and pieces. The whole Truth cannot be known because there is always something else unseen and indefinable within our current framework of knowledge. Truth is something that is revealed in increments like pieces of a huge puzzle that is constantly being formed anew. That which you can see, taste, touch, hear, or smell is just a very small part of what is real. Science has found bits and pieces that were once unknown and incomprehensible and did not fit into humanity's description of reality. So, both Truth and Reality are constantly being refined and redefined.
 
journey-on I really like your definition
 

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What is the Truth? How do you Define it?
by Amazing 7 years ago 68 Replies latest 7 years ago   jw friends
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BurnTheShips
BurnTheShips 7 years ago

God is Truth. Truth is infinite. We will always be learning more Truth even if we live forever.
BTS
 
Amazing
Amazing 7 years ago

Journey-on ... a good definition for science and philosophy ... and perhaps Christianity.
BTS ... very good indeed! I like it ... succinct ... to the point ... and deals with faith.
 
drwtsn32
drwtsn32 7 years ago

Well done, journey-on...
 
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 7 years ago

Reality is hitting black ice with your truck on a mountain highway..Losing control and pin-balling across both lanes of a highway,busy with 18 wheel trucks traveling at 100kmh.....Then landing a deap ditch backwards,with your truck laying on it`s side.....And..Waiting 3 hours in sub zero weather for a tow truck........Thats reality!..................................LOL!!...OUTLAW
 
BurnTheShips
BurnTheShips 7 years ago

I liked Journey-On's definition. I think we are both saying the same thing.
BTS
 
Amazing
Amazing 7 years ago

I attribute 'truth' in different ways to different things:
The Court Room: As a juror I want facts (truthful information) so I and other jurors can determine innocence or guilt.
Science: I want truthful facts and working theory ... but let the truth emerge like an unfolding flower that never stops revealing new surprises.
Philosophy: Truth is too elusive for me ... I generally fall on my face when trying to find any truthful frame of reference.
Human relationships: Truth is honesty with one another.
Relationship with God: Truth (Christ) is that on which I can firmly rely, like a foundation stone, knowing my faith will not shipwreck ... and have an eternal future with God and all my brothers and sisters in heaven ... whatever that may mean ... however it unfolds ...
The Father: In truth is the ultimate object of worship ... the one who I can call Papa.
The Son: In truth is the rock of my salvation, of whom I owe eternal gratitude and loyalty.
The Holy Spirit: In truth is my advocate, teacher, counselor, guide, comforter, and friend.
The Saints: In truth, the Holy Ones are there as friends and brothers and sisters living in divinity with whom I can commune.
The Holy Catholic Church:  In truth, the place of reconciliation, healing, and sacramental connection between humanity and divinity.
All people on earth: In truth, my brothers and sisters, who, like me, are sinners in need of Christ, of whom I hope will not let their Watchtower experience, or other negative religious or life experiences, kill the faith in Christ they once had, or may have in the future. (Edited to clarify more than just the JWs)
Amen!
 
drwtsn32
drwtsn32 7 years ago

Good point, Amazing. Truth means different things in different contexts.
 
poppers
poppers 7 years ago

What is truth? That which "is" before it gets defined, labeled, compared, or judged by mind. Mind takes "what is" and tries to define it somehow, to fit some philosophy or religious concept, and that's when "truth" gets obscured. Is it any wonder, then, there are so many religions and philosophies?
 
Amazing
Amazing 7 years ago

Poppers:
Very interesting, indeed! So what is that pure, undefined, unlabeled, un-minded truth of which you speak? Don't define it now ... don't mangle it with 'mind' ... don't philosophize it ... just tell me what it is.
 
garybuss
garybuss 7 years ago

When superstition, religion, opinion, philosophy, psychology, and politics are removed . . . reality is what's left. Truth to me, is not needing explanation, not debatable, and not reducible. Proof of untruth is explanation, debate, and reduction. Planet earth is round = truth.
OUTLAW's truck story is not reality . . . that's just plain old bad luck.


 

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Topic Summary
jws teach that 'accurate knowledge' is the definition of truth.
they add to this by saying that the 'conduct' of average church goers also identifies them as not being in the 'truth.
' and, they define their 'organization' as being the truth, because they are a clean people who are doing right works, and teaching accurately.



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What is the Truth? How do you Define it?
by Amazing 7 years ago 68 Replies latest 7 years ago   jw friends
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Amazing
Amazing 7 years ago

Garybuss,
You make an interesting argument ... but ...
Planet earth is round = truth.
The earth is actually a slightly an egg-shaped sphere ... it is not really 'round.' The shape of the earth is a fact and is not about truth, though a truth could be involved. It appears or gives the impression of roundness, because from the human perspective it is so damn big ... and the same is true for the other planets, the Sun, and other stars.
Fact may be a component or sub-set of truth ... but truth, depending on the discreet topic, has much broader and more meaningful implications.
 
Scarred for life
Scarred for life 7 years ago

I don't know the answers to your questions but I know the WBTS doesn 't have it.
 
donny
donny 7 years ago

I decided to ask my co-office dweller, Carlos.
Me: Define reality
Carlos: It's when you are selling a house or land.
Me: (Silence)
 
Narkissos
Narkissos 7 years ago

"Truth" is the guilty conscience of language, desperately trying to bow before something it hasn't made up so as to be justified in return.
A lack of creative will, of poetical courage. A lack of faith.
 
garybuss
garybuss 7 years ago

Amazing, Truth is the earth is really whatever shape it is after you and I are gone.


 
poppers
poppers 7 years ago


So what is that pure, undefined, unlabeled, un-minded truth of which you speak? Don't define it now ... don't mangle it with 'mind' ... don't philosophize it ... just tell me what it is.

That's just it - when you attempt to put words to it you've limited it, you've "mangled it with mind". That's the paradox that comes with truth, it can be "known" but it cannot be expressed "truthfully"; you can only point to it with words. Words are just more concepts, and truth cannot be grasped conceptually. Even so, I'll say this: That which is true is that which never changes. See/realize that for yourself. See/realize what is present in this very moment, and do that without attempting to "grasp" it or define it in any way. Find that which never changes amidst all of that which does change and you've found truth.
 
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 7 years ago

"Thats not Reality".....LOL@GaryBuss.....It scared the shit out of me!.....All we have in these mountains is cliff`s and 15-20 seconds of air time if you leave the road.....Falling is a breeze..It`s the sudden stop that will kill you..It seemed pretty real to me!..LOL!!.......................OUTLAW
 
AllTimeJeff
AllTimeJeff 7 years ago

With all respect, this sounds like an attempt to justify faith, not truth. In a religious context (such as found in the bible) truth was evident. Whether it was the Israelites who (allegedly) had the 10 plagues, the parting of the Red Sea, the 10 commandments, etc, they had physical evidence supplied by god. Faith was not necessary, as the truth was apparent, if you buy that these events happened as described.
Similarly, Jesus raised the dead, fed thousands, etc. No faith necessary. Evidence (allegedly) was there, faith was not needed. It appears that for several thousand years, god/Jesus has seen fit to not do anything. This frankly gives credence to viewing the accounts of the bible as stories, not factual. Hardly the kind of thing to call true. (truth)
Is there value in having a faith, perhaps basing it on these accounts? I would think so, but it has to be a rather selective reading of what to take seriously, and what to put aside.
I also think that we have to respect what words mean. To call stories and legends a basis for faith is one thing. I can respect that. To call it truth? I have a problem with that.
If I am missing your point, I apologize, but my impression for you is that truth seems to be for you, religious faith. Whereas the people in the bible (allegedly) had evidence so as to believe (if you take the bible that seriously, I don't) there has been no evidence since the alleged resurrection of Jesus.
Truth will certainly mean different things to different people, and I further myself from worrying about that these days. If you have your truth, you certainly don't need anyones permission here. But to express it as a universal truth, or to suggest that there is a definitive truth based on the available evidence to me is a bit disingenuous, whether you mean it to be that way or not.
Faith is what we are talking about here. If it were truth, we would have worldwide evidence, and worldwide agreement. Since this is in the realm of the meta physical, and what one chooses to put faith in, I must be persuaded to call this what it is, an argument for faith in a higher being.
 
Amazing
Amazing 7 years ago

All time Jeff,
Many people/posters equate 'truth' with faith ... others, as you can see from many postings, do not equate truth with faith, but simply reality. There is no justification of anything ... this post is exactly as intended ... a sharing of what people see as truth, be it faith, facts, reality, science, atheism, or religion.
Poppers:

Find that which never changes amidst all of that which does change and you've found truth.
You have just described the Catholic Church! ... LOl ... just messing with ya ... that which does not change ... so after exhorting to not use words, you use words and generate the last sentence. The devil have not changed ... is he truth? Or simply truthfully the devil? Fascinating, indeed!
 
joelingeorgia
joelingeorgia 7 years ago

i think the only real truth's are natural laws.
 

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Topic Summary
jws teach that 'accurate knowledge' is the definition of truth.
they add to this by saying that the 'conduct' of average church goers also identifies them as not being in the 'truth.
' and, they define their 'organization' as being the truth, because they are a clean people who are doing right works, and teaching accurately.



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by The Searcher 6 months ago
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by Olivia Wilde 8 months ago
blondie
Blondie's Highlights from 11-15-2015 WT (FAITH)
by blondie 5 months ago



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What is the Truth? How do you Define it?
by Amazing 7 years ago 68 Replies latest 7 years ago   jw friends
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garybuss
garybuss 7 years ago

OUTLAW, when I come out to visit, remind me to drive.

 
AllTimeJeff
AllTimeJeff 7 years ago

I appreciate your intent Amazing, and I respect it.
I noted in your starting post on this thread that it was in a strictly religious context, which is what I spoke to. I know your last sentence gave questions as to each individuals definition of truth, esp "Does it even matter to you?" And of course it does.
A brief history as to our backgrounds as JW's should give all of us, whether people of faith or not, pause as to the power of the word "truth", especially in a religious context.
You see, while we were JW's, we had the TRUTH! And we talked/argued at people's doors to those who were convinced that they had the TRUTH! Whether they be Catholic, Orthodox, or other Christians, we all can quickly recall just how powerful it was to "know" that we were "right" they were "wrong", because we had the "truth".
My post JW existence has been one with coming to grips on how faith affects people positively. I not only allow for that in others, I allow it for myself in my own way. But I would never once call it true, or truth. It simply is what it is for the individual. The fact that a person has a faith, and calls it truth, neither makes it true or truth.
I am adamant on this one point, only because there are real inherent dangers in the power behind the word truth, which I hope I don't need to quantify. (but I will if you need)
Now faith, that is something different. A personal truth SHOULD be just that, personal. There is no universal truth in the religious context that you started this thread with.
And just for the record, I say this not to argue, (as always, I apologize in advance for my directness) but to make what I think is a very important point that should not be swept under the rug in a discussion about religious truth.
 
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 7 years ago

LOL@GaryBuss!!................................OUTLAW
 
Amazing
Amazing 7 years ago

All time Jeff,
My post JW existence has been one with coming to grips on how faith affects people positively. I not only allow for that in others, I allow it for myself in my own way. But I would never once call it true, or truth. It simply is what it is for the individual. The fact that a person has a faith, and calls it truth, neither makes it true or truth.
Amen ... agreed.
I am adamant on this one point, only because there are real inherent dangers in the power behind the word truth, which I hope I don't need to quantify. (but I will if you need)
Agreed again ... good point.
Now faith, that is something different. A personal truth SHOULD be just that, personal. There is no universal truth in the religious context that you started this thread with.
I will have to think about this one ... because I believe that 'truth' is independent of humans ... we do not control it ... but it exist. I see truth as Jesus put it, that he is the truth. Truth in that case does involve faith ... not an institution ...but faith. And that faith has to be, by definition, universal.
And just for the record, I say this not to argue, (as always, I apologize in advance for my directness) but to make what I think is a very important point that should not be swept under the rug in a discussion about religious truth.
No need to apologize ... you make some good and interesting points ... and I enjoy the exchange.
 
AllTimeJeff
AllTimeJeff 7 years ago

and I enjoy the exchange.
Me too, and I appreciate your points as well.
I will have to think about this one ... because I believe that 'truth' is independent of humans ... we do not control it ... but it exist. I see truth as Jesus put it, that he is the truth. Truth in that case does involve faith ... not an institution ...but faith. And that faith has to be, by definition, universal.
I can agree with some of this. Out of respect for your faith, I do not wish to discuss why you believe that Jesus is the "truth" for you. It doesn't have to be a topic for conversation. I would take exception if you thought that Jesus is the truth for me. He isn't. Also, I don't agree with your statement that such a faith must be universal. It starts, not on what is true, but what is believed, by definition, an article of faith. Again, I don't begrudge you this, but cannot in any way call it truth. It isn't true, nor universal. It's not even totally terrestrial, as evidenced by the other religions on the earth.
 
jwfacts
jwfacts 7 years ago

THE TRUTH is such a cult term. It is no different to the Hitchhikers guide the to galaxy question " what is the Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe, and Everything".  Any answer to the question "what is truth?" makes no more sense than the answer 42.
What does the question mean? What is God's name? What is the truth regarding how long to boil an egg? The Question is so broad it is meaningless.
For a JW to say they have "the truth" is absurb. The body of information they believe barely touches on any of life's questions. Of course, the fact that "the truth" changes every year makes it even more unbelieveable.
 
poppers
poppers 7 years ago

so after exhorting to not use words, you use words and generate the last sentence.
I'm just pointing with words - no words are "it". That's why I said, "Even so..." It's the condundrum one faces while trying to communicate or describe it.
The devil have not changed ... is he truth? Or simply truthfully the devil?
There you go again, getting lost in more concepts/ideas . You continue to think you'll find it in them, and you won't. (Now watch how your mind will generate another question, another set of ideas to chase after in the hope that further questioning will bring you truth. You are doomed to a futile search that way.)
 
nicolaou
nicolaou 7 years ago

1+1=2 That is truth.
A few loaves and fishes feeding thousands of people with the remaining scraps totalling more than the original whole. That is not the truth.
 
jgnat
jgnat 7 years ago

Hi, everybody. I wandered in looking for blondie. I thought this might be a discussion she would add to, but maybe that's projection on my part. This is the sort of discussion I jump in to.
Narkissos, you offer a fascinating alternative, as usual. If I may interpret in my own way, do you suggest that the search for an objective, external truth can be an "easy out" and hinder people from fully living, sensing, being?
Besides our best understanding of facts, like the periodic table and the shape of the earth (truth), I believe there are a few hard moral truths on how people should treat each other. My gut reaction to the original question is that truth must be tested against experience. If it doesn't hold up, the "truth" must be re-examined.
 
Priest73
Priest73 7 years ago

1+1=2 That is truth.

Except for very large values of 1. (sorry dumb math major joke)
 

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jws teach that 'accurate knowledge' is the definition of truth.
they add to this by saying that the 'conduct' of average church goers also identifies them as not being in the 'truth.
' and, they define their 'organization' as being the truth, because they are a clean people who are doing right works, and teaching accurately.



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What is the Truth? How do you Define it?
by Amazing 7 years ago 68 Replies latest 7 years ago   jw friends
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AllTimeJeff
AllTimeJeff 7 years ago

My gut reaction to the original question is that truth must be tested against experience. If it doesn't hold up, the "truth" must be re-examined.
Existentialism is an enemy of religious truth. Not necessarily metaphysical truth, which cannot be quantified anyhow.
Morals and ethics can be tested. We know that to be honest and loving is a more healthier way of living then its opposites. Why that is so is another issue entirely.
Religion/theists/Christians claim that moral/ethics are their sole territory. This is a claim that is getting less credence by the evidence of atheists and agnostics being shown to have morals and ethics too.
Again, personal truth is different from truth. And it is clear that personal truth = faith. Real truth has nothing to do with personal truth. It is important though that we each individually have our own personal truth. But you can't push that or promote that to anyone else.
 
Amazing
Amazing 7 years ago

AllTimeJeff,
I can agree with some of this. Out of respect for your faith, I do not wish to discuss why you believe that Jesus is the "truth" for you. It doesn't have to be a topic for conversation. I would take exception if you thought that Jesus is the truth for me. He isn't. Also, I don't agree with your statement that such a faith must be universal. It starts, not on what is true, but what is believed, by definition, an article of faith. Again, I don't begrudge you this, but cannot in any way call it truth. It isn't true, nor universal. It's not even totally terrestrial, as evidenced by the other religions on the earth.
Perhaps we speak from different perspectives. Having studied eastern religions, such as Daoism (Taoism), Shintoism, Buddhism, Hinduism, and Confucianism (more of a philosophy) I have a good handle on the fact that Catholicism, and in general Christianity, is not universally known or accepted. Although, about 25% of people on earth are either Catholic or Orthodox, and if we add in non-Catholic Christianity, it is about 33% of the earth ... spread around the globe. I have also studied the Koran, though I have not closely studied Islam. In some Islamic nations, Christianity is virtually unknown ... and not permitted to exist.
The problem in our discussion is how we use the term 'universal." To be 'universal' does not demand that a truth be 'known' or 'accepted' by anyone. A 'truth' can by completely unknown, and still be true, and be absolutely universal. I have no doubt that as humans move out into the universe more, we will discover many new truths ... new to us, that is, but timeless truths that have always existed.
At one time, all people on earth thought the earth was flat ... then they thought it was the center of the universe ... and now we know that earth is a tiny little planet on the outer 1/3 edge of one of the spiral arms of a medium size galaxy, with 100 billion stars; and it is merely one galaxy in an estimated billion or more galaxies. The truth of our existence and place in the universal was not known or accepted by anyone on earth at one time ... but the "truth" was nonetheless true and universal ... and at one time, as some begin to study and form speculation about the universe, it took "faith" using what they did know to 'believe' the universal truth of our existence ... a faith that is no longer needed today ... but the truth stands, and is good. Yet, there are still people on earth who do not know about the universe ... and the 'Flat Earth Society' still exists, and claims that the 'proofs' of a spherical earth to be a conspiratorial hoax.
Likewise, right now, what I accept as 'truth' in the person of Christ is not known by all, or accepted by those who do know. But, it can still be 'truth' and in fact 'universal' truth ... that is, God can be the same everywhere to everyone all the time. Jesus can be his only son, and our savior. Right now, however, I openly admit that this truth in my life, is a matter of faith. Time will prove whether it is a universal truth.
Existentialism is an enemy of religious truth. Not necessarily metaphysical truth, which cannot be quantified anyhow.
No, it is not. People with a certain agenda can become enemies of truth. However, existentialism is an outmoded approach to philosophy. This field is still evolving, and currently, philosophers have moved from finding grand theories to establishing mini-theories.
Morals and ethics can be tested. We know that to be honest and loving is a more healthier way of living then its opposites. Why that is so is another issue entirely.
There are time honored morals and ethics, and time-dependent morals and ethics, and situational ethics. Therefore, depending on when one lives, and where one lives, some things considered moral and ethical can be healthy or less than healthy.
Religion/theists/Christians claim that moral/ethics are their sole territory. This is a claim that is getting less credence by the evidence of atheists and agnostics being shown to have morals and ethics too.
No, they make no such claim ... this is a myth.
Again, personal truth is different from truth. And it is clear that personal truth = faith. Real truth has nothing to do with personal truth. It is important though that we each individually have our own personal truth. But you can't push that or promote that to anyone else.
Personal truth is not necessarily equal to faith. Personal truth may not involve any faith. Faith is an act that one engages in, for different reasons ... some have blind faith, some have faith based on trust and experience, other have faith as a gift. But truth is time honored, and independent of faith. Faith can move us toward truth ... but these two are in inextricably linked.
 
I quit!
I quit! 7 years ago

There are also relative truths such as the sun rises in the east and sets in the west.
 
Mall Cop
Mall Cop 7 years ago

Amazing is it true that we are a product of our culture?
That where we were born and what we were taught becomes our truth?
For example, suppose we born in China, that would make us Chinese.
Then we would be taught a chinese culture that would involve a religous teaching that would be the truth for us in China.
The same would go for where ever one was born and raised on earth.
Of course one could abandoned their culture and what they were taught and learn that what they were originally taught was no longer the truth that they thought it was .
Another example:In short. I was born into the Catholic faith. A knock on the door changed that for me. The Watchtower Society had a lock on what is the real truth and I accepted it over my Catholic upbringing.
Some 33 years later, I come to an awakening that they don't have the truth.
25 years a Catholic, 33 years a JW, 6 years later at the age of 64, I still cannot answer your two questions.
Blueblades
 
StAnn
StAnn 7 years ago

This is giving me a headache.
For me, truth is something I seek. In part, it is understanding. The older I get, the more insight I have into life, the clearer things are to me. I'm always learning more and more and refining my opinions based upon the new knowledge I've acquired.
I do believe there is an ultimate truth and that that truth is God. I suppose that's why Christians want to go to heaven so badly after they die and finally get to be with Jesus, face to face. Jesus is the TRUTH for me and I don't think I will fully grasp what that truth is until I'm in his presence.
And since God created everything, I think this truth will apply to everything, whether it be religion, science, what have you.
JMO.
St. Ann
 
OnTheWayOut
OnTheWayOut 7 years ago

What say you? What is truth to you ... how do you define truth ... does it even matter to you?
From my (never finished) book on the subject of truth: What is the Truth? If asked, “What is the truth?” Jehovah’s Witnesses will answer most likely like this: “The truth is that which is firm, trustworthy, stable, faithful, and established as fact. Jehovah God is truth, in that His judicial decisions, law, commandments, and word are truth.He cannot lie according to Titus 1:2.”Seeking an answer elsewhere, Webster defines “truth” as: (1) being true; specif., a) sincerity; honesty b) conformity with fact c) reality; actual existence d) correctness; accuracy (2) that which is true (3) an established fact. Wikipedia (online encyclopedia) mentions that “there is no single definition of truth about which the majority of philosophers agree.”In John chapter 18, Jesus told Pontius Pilate that he came into the world to “bear witness to the truth,” but when Pilate asked, “What is truth?” there was no answer from Jesus. There are various opinions on how to define and identify truth. Even with Webster telling us that truth is “that which is true,” I could make a statement and say that it is a true statement, but that just leads to questions such as these; What is a true statement? Is it different from a statement made truthfully? Such highly abstract discussions will get us nowhere. Some feel that truth is subjective and personal, that one man’s truth comes from his inner feelings and thinking, his viewpoint. Many add that truth is relative, only defined by its comparison to something else. This would be similar to the abstract question, “What is beauty?” In subjective truth, different persons would have different truths. Outside of philosophy, truth is not generally thought of in subjective terms.Truth is determined by existing realities, based on facts independent of the mind.Most people think that truth is objective. Some go so far as to say that only absolute truth matters. "Absolute truth" is defined as inflexible reality: fixed,
invariable, unalterable facts. Absolute truth requires an absolute standard. This is the truth of which the Watchtower organization refers. Even here, we can run into trouble.If I make the objective statement that “Earth is the third planet out from the sun,” another person could ask, “Whose definition of ‘planet’ are you using?” “Is it possible that there are other undiscovered planets between the earth and sun?” “When you say ‘out from the sun,’ do you mean in distance or a straight line?” With religious doctrine, it is no different. Whose translation are we using, and which ancient Greek or Hebrew meaning are we applying? The Watchtower claims that our perspective on truth should come from the absolute authority of the creator of all things. They teach that the creator determines what is right and what is wrong, and that the absolute truth we seek is knowledge of His will for His creation. This is “the truth” that, unlike beauty, does not lie in the eye of the beholder. It’s just a shame that we need humans to interpret what that absolute truth is, and to tell us what
they think God’s will is for us. I am still on my lifelong journey to determine what is the absolute truth. .... I will not be able to prove what is “the truth” but I intend to [learn] what is not “the truth.” Since the Watchtower teaches absolute truth, I simply have to demonstrate that it is false or not absolute. This is surprisingly easy to do. It is only difficult
for an inactive member like myself to overcome my Watchtower training and be willing to do it.
 
nicolaou
nicolaou 7 years ago

Seems to me that folks are confusing a search for 'truth' with a search for meaning . . . . .
 
Amazing
Amazing 7 years ago

Nicolou: Good observation ... I would like to see you develop it some more.
OnTheWayOut: I am reading over your post, and will comment in detail later today. You make some good points.
Mall Cop (Blueblades):
Amazing is it true that we are a product of our culture?
In the narrow context of the question ... initially, yes. I would say that as we grow, expand, get exposed to other cultures, visit other nations and get to know peoples of those nations ... and study their cultures ... experience their cultures ... then we become a product of all that we are exposed to, and a product of many cultures.
That where we were born and what we were taught becomes our truth?
Initially, yes. See my response above.
For example, suppose we born in China, that would make us Chinese.
Generally, yes. However, Chinese is both a race and culture. We could be born there of English parents and be raised as English people. We would undoubtedly take some Chinese language and culture with us.
Then we would be taught a chinese culture that would involve a religous teaching that would be the truth for us in China.
Generally, in a relative sense, your point is valid ... however, in the ancient world, it was also truth that the earth was flat, and that the sun moved around the earth. That did not make it truth ... it just seemed true to those who lived at that time and place. So what is true in China today, may seem true to them, but may not be true in reality. Many people living in Communists lands, like China, were taught that the west was evil, out to get them, and that we suffered in poverty, while they lived in the workers paradise. Most of them likely accepted the lie as the truth. That did not make it the truth.
The same would go for where ever one was born and raised on earth.
See my response above about China ... it would apply across the board.
Of course one could abandoned their culture and what they were taught and learn that what they were originally taught was no longer the truth that they thought it was .
Yes ... agreed.
Another example:In short. I was born into the Catholic faith. A knock on the door changed that for me. The Watchtower Society had a lock on what is the real truth and I accepted it over my Catholic upbringing. ... Some 33 years later, I come to an awakening that they don't have the truth.
Yes ... and I share the same history with you ... a few differences, but the same nonetheless.
25 years a Catholic, 33 years a JW, 6 years later at the age of 64, I still cannot answer your two questions.
That is OK. I am not always able to answer them for myself. What do you think of what I posted above, on page 1 I think:
I attribute 'truth' in different ways to different things:
The Court Room: As a juror I want facts (truthful information) so I and other jurors can determine innocence or guilt.
Science: I want truthful facts and working theory ... but let the truth emerge like an unfolding flower that never stops revealing new surprises.
Philosophy: Truth is too elusive for me ... I generally fall on my face when trying to find any truthful frame of reference.
Human relationships: Truth is honesty with one another.
Relationship with God: Truth (Christ) is that on which I can firmly rely, like a foundation stone, knowing my faith will not shipwreck ... and have an eternal future with God and all my brothers and sisters in heaven ... whatever that may mean ... however it unfolds ...
The Father: In truth is the ultimate object of worship ... the one who I can call Papa.
The Son: In truth is the rock of my salvation, of whom I owe eternal gratitude and loyalty.
The Holy Spirit: In truth is my advocate, teacher, counselor, guide, comforter, and friend.
The Saints: In truth, the Holy Ones are there as friends and brothers and sisters living in divinity with whom I can commune.
The Holy Catholic Church:  In truth, the place of reconciliation, healing, and sacramental connection between humanity and divinity.
All people on earth: In truth, my brothers and sisters, who, like me, are sinners in need of Christ, of whom I hope will not let their Watchtower experience, or other negative religious or life experiences, kill the faith in Christ they once had, or may have in the future. (Edited to clarify more than just the JWs)
To me, what truth is, and how one defines it, depends on how truth is being used, and in what context we use it. Do you find any agreement with the above?
 
SixofNine
SixofNine 7 years ago

Thinking over the topic headline, I realize that I still define "truth" pretty much as I've always defined truth, even when I was "in the truth". And w/o consulting a dictionary, I've always had a straightforward understanding of truth to be synonymous with "accuracy" and "reality".

So when people use "truth" in ways opposite of that, it bothers me now, just as it bothered me then. When I realized that the society was doing that, I left. And it's not like I held them to some impossible standard either; there were things I mildly (and even passionately, on a couple of topics) disagreed with the governing body on, but I still felt like if they had made a sincere effort, and "we" were right about the big things, it was, for all intents and purposes, "the truth". But turns out they don't, and it isn't.


When you put the word "my" in front of the words "reality" or "truth" you've created, in fact you are, an oxymoron.
 
beksbks
beksbks 7 years ago

Mall Cop, I was thinking about that this morning. What makes the Bible any more truth than the Koran, the Torah, the Upanishads or the Tao Te Ching?
 

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jws teach that 'accurate knowledge' is the definition of truth.
they add to this by saying that the 'conduct' of average church goers also identifies them as not being in the 'truth.
' and, they define their 'organization' as being the truth, because they are a clean people who are doing right works, and teaching accurately.



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What is the Truth? How do you Define it?
by Amazing 7 years ago 68 Replies latest 7 years ago   jw friends
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beksbks
beksbks 7 years ago

So none of you bible thumpers can tell me what makes it any more true than any other holy book???
 
AllTimeJeff
AllTimeJeff 7 years ago

I think the sheer amount of opinion on what "truth" is just from this small sampling is telling enough on the reliablitilty of said truth. It simply isn't a verifiable concept.
 
Heaven
Heaven 7 years ago

I also put this in password's topic NEW BLOG - What is "the truth"?
At work, we are governed by the International Standards Organization creed as follows:
1) Do what you say.
2) Say what you do.
3) Prove it.
We cannot obtain contracts with certain large companies such as banks, insurance companies, and governments without the certification. We have to have a Quality Management System that includes change and problem management, continual improvement, and problem prevention. We must document our processes and metrics. We must adhere to the 3 principles outlined above or we lose our Certification -- and our clients. We conduct peer review audits annually. Periodic external audits are also conducted.
The WTS would NEVER acquire ISO Certification.
 
quietlyleaving
quietlyleaving 7 years ago

I like to think of the small amount of factual "truth" and "abstract truth" (that we have isolated) as co-ordinates or as reference points. Experiential truth (the more important truth in our lives imo) is to do with our relationships with ourselves and in our communities and interactions with nature and therefore is changing and often unexpected. This is the sort of truth we encounter in our day to day lives and provides significance but obviously cannot be seen as applying universally imo.
I would go so far as to say no truth is universally fixed.
 
nicolaou
nicolaou 7 years ago

I think the sheer amount of opinion on what "truth" is just from this small sampling is telling enough on the reliablitilty of said truth. It simply isn't a verifiable concept.
Far too broad a statement Jeff.  Empirical truth, by definition, is absolutely verifiable. There's just way too much woolly thinking and over complication on the nature of truth.
Something is either true, false or unknown. Rational thinkers attempt to learn the truth about the unknown through scientific research and hard work. Others try the futility of faith.
 
quietlyleaving
quietlyleaving 7 years ago

nicalaou, this is just what I mean. The "facts" that we have established by "empiricism" and the scientific method is very small compared to life as we live it.
 
jgnat
jgnat 7 years ago


I hadn't realized that existentialism had gone out of fashion. I had just discovered it a few years ago and it resonated with things I just knew. I'd felt like I'd found my missing puzzle pieces. Amazing, if you have some links to articles that support your statement, I would like to read them.
About the flat earth discussion, Amazing. It was the Christians at the time who most vehemently denied the evidence put before them. Their "truth" model at the time demanded that God - and the Sun - be the center of the universe. Observers who challenged that concept were labelled infidels. I wonder if Christians, in their fierce determination to support their current beliefs, unknowingly slay sharper observers.
You are right that, once the Christian admits to new fact, his faith must rest on something else.
Mall Cop - here's an interesting thought. Steven Pinker proposes that there are a dozen instincts that all people possess regardless of culture and upbringing. These seem to be hard-wired in to all of us. Just as a foal instinctively rises to his feet and seeks his mother's teat, every human being is born with these instincts.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/13/magazine/13Psychology-t.html
 
slimboyfat
slimboyfat 7 years ago

It's good to see you around jgnat - and that's the truth.
 
AllTimeJeff
AllTimeJeff 7 years ago

The "facts" that we have established by "empiricism" and the scientific method is very small compared to life as we live it.
You know, this is where I differ a small bit from some atheists. (I can't and won't speak for any general group wholesale) I agree with the above statement.
Science and what is available currently through testable premises should always be relevant. I take them seriously. Yet, science can't quantify certain quality of life premises.
To put it succinctly, we all want to be happy and at peace. (something that JW dogma violated in all of us to one degree or another) What causes that, including the need it seems we all possess to have a purpose in life, so that our life has meaning is not known, either in science or religion. Thus, to call any personal conclusion "truth" instead of personal faith elevates dogma over facts, what is true and false.
Suffice to say, if we don't have meaning or purpose in life, we seek it. If we don't have it, we are sad, depressed. Psychology is a medical/sociological field that directly intercedes for those who aren't happy and need help. Psychiatry is similar, with more of a reliance on medicine.....
When it comes to "the great questions" (i.e. how did we get here? "Who" put us here? etc etc etc) the answers seem to go beyond pure science. (for the time being)
However, it is in my opinion, somewhat dishonest of certain religions (not all, just some) who claim that this void is their realm, at the exclusion of science.
That is why "existentialism" is so important, because I believe it puts the onus of "truth" on the individual to discover for themselves. Even if this personal truth is nothing more then an article of personal faith, at least it comes from the conclusions of the individual, not at the insistence of a group with its dogma.
We all need to take responsibility for our journey's, and not abdicate them to the dogma of a group.
 
AllTimeJeff
AllTimeJeff 7 years ago

Amazing, my responses to your offerings
The problem in our discussion is how we use the term 'universal." To be 'universal' does not demand that a truth be 'known' or 'accepted' by anyone. A 'truth' can by completely unknown, and still be true, and be absolutely universal. I have no doubt that as humans move out into the universe more, we will discover many new truths ... new to us, that is, but timeless truths that have always existed.
I see your point, but I think in the context that you originally shared in regards to religion, this unnecessarily muddies the waters. We aren't discussing the subject of possible warp drive engines, we are discussing meta physical truth, with god and faith at its end. To imply that these future discoveries you speak of will support religious truth (i.e. higher powers exist, etc) is something I am open to, but certainly have zero reason to count on that, or to think it likely. It isn't likely at all that these new truths will reveal "god" or "truth" as you have contextualized it.
Likewise, right now, what I accept as 'truth' in the person of Christ is not known by all, or accepted by those who do know. But, it can still be 'truth' and in fact 'universal' truth ... that is, God can be the same everywhere to everyone all the time. Jesus can be his only son, and our savior. Right now, however, I openly admit that this truth in my life, is a matter of faith. Time will prove whether it is a universal truth.
I appreciate very much your honesty here. Please know in return that while I cannot agree with your truth/faith, your reasonableness leaves me open minded to your points of view. Suffice to say, whatever faith I have is not currently rooted in your beliefs. I thank you for not referring to your faith as a current universal truth though. It is refreshing.
Existentialism is an enemy of religious truth. Not necessarily metaphysical truth, which cannot be quantified anyhow.
No, it is not. People with a certain agenda can become enemies of truth. However, existentialism is an outmoded approach to philosophy. This field is still evolving, and currently, philosophers have moved from finding grand theories to establishing mini-theories.
This isn't what I was referring too. As you can reference from my previous post a few minutes ago, it is my belief that being "existential" has a lot to do with paying attention to our lives and comparing what we are told or taught with what reality is for us. I am very much a believer that each person must do this, though I readily concede many do not even try. But that will always be my encouragement for others, and that is what I mean by existentialism. (which I think works with the generally recognized meaning of "existentialism)
Agenda's ARE dangerous. It is important to recognize this, and take it into account when weighing evidence and claims of faith/truth.
Religion/theists/Christians claim that moral/ethics are their sole territory. This is a claim that is getting less credence by the evidence of atheists and agnostics being shown to have morals and ethics too.
No, they make no such claim ... this is a myth.
Actually, many do. But I apologize, as I see I made a wholesale statement, and that isn't true of all religions. Mea culpa!
Again, personal truth is different from truth. And it is clear that personal truth = faith. Real truth has nothing to do with personal truth. It is important though that we each individually have our own personal truth. But you can't push that or promote that to anyone else.
Personal truth is not necessarily equal to faith. Personal truth may not involve any faith. Faith is an act that one engages in, for different reasons ... some have blind faith, some have faith based on trust and experience, other have faith as a gift. But truth is time honored, and independent of faith. Faith can move us toward truth ... but these two are in inextricably linked.
Just for the record, while I do not begrudge you your opinion, I must disagree. Truth IS time honored (except for the dark ages, or our time in the borg as two examples) in that truth stands the test of time against the often wild claims of faith based theism. Again, this isn't an attack on faith, just the amount one invests in it while being blind to the weaknesses and holes in their claims.
Faith can move us to truth, but it can also move one away from truth.
In a theistic context therefore, truth is a misused word. Even if for you, truth is different because of your faith in Jesus, it still doesn't make it true. And at a certain point, we must defend words and their meanings to avoid phrases like the JW inspired "The TRUTH!" to trick us.
However, your faith is your own business, and I appreciate the intellectual honesty you have exhibited in discussing this and in sharing your views.
 

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jws teach that 'accurate knowledge' is the definition of truth.
they add to this by saying that the 'conduct' of average church goers also identifies them as not being in the 'truth.
' and, they define their 'organization' as being the truth, because they are a clean people who are doing right works, and teaching accurately.



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What is the Truth? How do you Define it?
by Amazing 7 years ago 68 Replies latest 7 years ago   jw friends
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quietlyleaving
quietlyleaving 7 years ago

Jeff
I'm not sure what we mean by intellectual honesty here but in the spirit of intellectual honesty I'm going to come out and say I'm probably more of an atheist than an existentialist but admit that I don't understand fully what existentialistism means in practice.
I love science - my next 2 summer courses will be to do with Darwin's thinking on natural selection and "how the universe works".  I'm very excited and looking forward to a change from cultural studies which was very challenging for me personally but worth it.
ql
 
AllTimeJeff
AllTimeJeff 7 years ago

QL
I am looking forward to that too. I hope you enjoy your studies on Darwin. This discussion on "truth" border on my views of spirituality. I do think there is an observable component to people in that many seem to work better with a belief in a higher power, or some kind of faith. It's a quality of life component that I think needs to be honored in all of us.
Here might be a good working definition of existentialism.
Existentialism is a term that has been applied to the work of a number of nineteenth and twentieth century philosophers who, despite profound doctrinal differences, [ 1 ] [ 2 ] took the human subject — not merely the thinking subject, but the acting, feeling, living human individual [ 3 ] [ 4 ] and his or her conditions of existence — as a starting point for philosophical thought. Existential philosophy is the "explicit conceptual manifestation of an existential attitude" [ 5 ] that begins with a sense of disorientation and confusion in the face of an apparently meaningless or absurd world. [ 6 ] [ 7 ] Many existentialists have also regarded traditional systematic or academic philosophy, in both style and content, as too abstract and remote from concrete human experience. [ 8 ] [ 9 ]  ....... Although there are some common tendencies amongst "existentialist" thinkers, there are major differences and disagreements among them (most notably the divide between atheistic existentialists like Sartre and theistic existentialists like Tillich); not all of them accept the validity of the term as applied to their own work.[ 10 ]
What I think needs to happen is that this "spiritual need" if you will (please work with me on the semantics, I don't mean that phrase in the JW/Christian way) needs to seperate from the auspices of the religions and be returned to the individual.
I personally believe that atheists and agnostics are more spiritually developed then many who go to church, for a variety of reasons. I don't think spirituality needs to have at its core the worship of "god". However, if that works for the individual, then be my guest.
As far as intellectual honesty, I was primarily praising Amazing (that rhymed!) for acknowledging the current limit of his beliefs and not insisting he had more proof then he has. That makes talking about this much easier.
 
quietlyleaving
quietlyleaving 7 years ago

thanks for explaining Jeff - in reading the excerpt it looks to me like existentialism is part of our romantic philosophical inheritance - a very significant feature of this is to value seeing cencepts as fragments in order that people be oriented towards developing their own spirituality and destiny. So it makes sense that some of the philosophers mentioned in the extract resist being categorised.
 
Narkissos
Narkissos 7 years ago

Hello jgnat,
I have been away for a couple of days and I just found your reply now -- I'm glad to see you around too! :smile:
If I may interpret in my own way, do you suggest that the search for an objective, external truth can be an "easy out" and hinder people from fully living, sensing, being?
My post above was deliberately in Nietzschean style -- partly as a provocation (waiting for you to pick it up :wink:), partly because I felt this particular approach was sorely missing in the discussion. As such it implies a reversal of values.
Nietzsche (especially in The Genealogy of Morals) was arguably the first to point out that the notion of "truth" (also, and perhaps even more clearly in the scientific field) is corollary to submission or obedience -- the ultimate expression of the ascetic ideal, hencethe opposite of creative will. Elsewhere he makes room for a parsimonious approach of relative truths (you can only deal with three or four of such truths in a lifetime), which belong to the first, "camel" stage of man -- when man bows down as the camel to be loaded with as many burdensome, heavy "truths" as he can bear (Zarathustra, Prologue). The next stages being the lion who rejects the loads in the solitude of the wilderness, and the child who starts, again, to "play," "laugh" and "dance," in blessed forgetfulness of "truth".
I for one do not buy into the notion of wordless "truth". A rock, or a mountain, aside from (or prior to) their conceptualisation as "rock" or "mountain," is not a truth, just a rock/mountain. Truth implies a correspondance, an adequation, between language and something which stands outside the reach of language. Hence an impossibility. What we really have in the search for "objective, external truth" (especially in the scientific realm, but also in the religious or philosophical ones) is a certain type of language: humble, meek, self-conscious, modest, showing an awareness of limits which is also a delusion. The use of paradox or dialectics, even self-contradiction, even the (wordy) praise of silence, is just language erasing itself -- ultimately as writing, as I have just done by writing rock/mountain. It's an artificial trick of language deluding itself.
There is an interesting expression in Johannine writings: poiein tèn alètheian, "to make the truth" (John 3:21; 1 John 1:6). It is paradoxical (hence artificial) as the truth (alètheia, lit. "unforgetfulness," an etymology very important to Heidegger among others), by all common standards, is precisely what is notmade (up). Now if the truth is to be made -- inseparably through language and action, through language as action and action as language (poiein is the etymology for our word poetry) then we open ourselves to a more positive understanding of "truth" -- which is no longer opposable to myth.
 
jgnat
jgnat 7 years ago

Nice to see you right back, Narkissos. As usual, you have given me enough to chew on for months. It would be inadequate to give a Mc-Reply in the style of McDonald's famous service. Yet here I am, responding.
I'm not so sure that the Nietzschean suggestion that truth and creativity are opposed, or that creativity is "good" and the codified truth is therefore "bad". My gut suggests that balance is needed.
Fascinating idea that we create truth through our use of the word and by deed. That will take a few months to chew over.
I'm leaning towards a few human truths that may be instinct. We see these few things as right and just because that is what we are. The implication, however, is that our truth is not universal, and might be harmful to other species.
 
AGuest
AGuest 7 years ago

May you have peace! I know this topic was posted some time ago is so may be considered "dead" by some, but I would like to respond, if I may. Thank you!
Many people associate the Truth with an abstract concept of "what is true" and so when they see the word "truth" they tend to go where many Bible scholars/translators went when defiing the Greek word ?λ?θεια (aletheia), found at John 14:6:
1) objectively
 a) what is true in any matter under consideration
 (1) truly, in truth, according to truth
 (2) of a truth, in reality, in fact, certainly
 b) what is true in things appertaining to God and the duties of man, moral and religious truth
 (1) in the greatest latitude
 (2) the true notions of God which are open to human reason without his supernatural intervention
 c) the truth as taught in the Christian religion, respecting God and the execution of his purposes through Christ, and respecting the duties of man,
opposing alike to the superstitions of the Gentiles and the inventions of the Jews, and the corrupt opinions and precepts of false teachers even among
Christians
2) subjectively
 (a)  truth as a personal excellence
 (1) that candour of mind which is free from affection, pretence, simulation, falsehood, deceit

I have learned, however that such abstracts and the Truth are not the same thing. Not at all No more than Wisdom is an abstract of concept of wise thinking/decision/judgment, or God an abstract concept of love. To the contrary TRUE Wisdom is a person, a literal being, as is TRUE Love. As is the Truth. As is Death. Truthfully. You know that I know this is not always easy for some to grasp (although I've been absent awhile I have been coming here for some time and posteing such truths and so know how many received it... or didn't). The difficulty exists for those who do not know him. As you know, I don't mean know OF him... which is what religion teaches... but actually know him. Literally. Actually. In reality. Face... to face. Truthfully. While I do rejoice for those who have come to know OF him... and so bear witness to their faith in him, it soars for those who have actually come to know him... face to face... and so bear witness not to their faith in him (for faith is the assured expectation of the thing hoped for and once that thing is realized faith is no longer necessary), but to actually knowing him. Their faith is in what he has already done for them and certain expectation of the future benefits that will bring - that particular "assured expectation."
What do I, then, define as the Truth? He is the Holy One of Israel, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, Son and Chosen/Anointed One (Christ) of the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies. Here's the thing: IF one can exercise enough faith (i.e., the size of a mustard seed) to HEAR him, then in time one can also come to SEE him. The latter takes a bit more time as we all exist in darkness and he is the Light, so one would have to draw close TO the Light in order to see him. One does that by following his voice, which he uses to guide anyone who wishes "into ALL truth." As you follow his voice, you come to know things such as love, faith, wisdom, truth, etc. NOT love, faith, wisdom, truth, etc., as the world knows it and teaches it (i.e., per the above interpretation and some of those posted here) but as these REALLY are: the real "reality."
See, because we are made of flesh, with its blood, physical beings, we tend to believe that all their is, all that is "real," all that is "true," etc., MUST be related to, perceived by, and understood pursuant TO the flesh, the physical body. But we are also MUCH more than that. That is one TRUTH that he, the Truth, helped me understand and know. Had I continued listening to those who only know the flesh, I would, like them, still be enslaved TO the flesh... and unable to "enter" into an entirely different realm, another "space" if you will, and see what is entirely beyond this most of perceive as the only "reality."
I say to you, however, that his words recorded at Romans 8:32, "You will know the TRUTH and the TRUTH will set you free," are some of the truest words ever spoken. Unfortunately, many stop there, however; many more even misstate his words as "Tell the truth for the truth will set you free," or some like version. If only they would read a little further, at Romans 8:36, and get the sense of the words recorded there:
"Therefore, if the SON sets you free, you will truly BE free."
What does this mean? It means that because you will be set free from the confines of your FLESH, your PHYSICAL being, you WILL be like spirit beings... truly FREE... and so able to "go in and out" between the spirit and physical realms. Flesh and blood cannot enter into the kingdom of the heavens. But SPIRIT can. Thus, when the CHRIST, the TRUTH, sets you FREE... you are SO free... that you can and will see, hear, and know the truth, the REALITY... of ALL there is, physical AND spiritual. Because I know HIM... I am no longer bound to that which is physical because HE set me free. As a result, I see things, hear things, know things that people ask about all the time. Things that seem SO mysterious and complicated to us in the flesh, but are TRULY quite simple, quite elementary. Things that, if you saw or hear them, would make you go "Duh!" over and over again!
We are not the sum total of our flesh, dear one - we are much more. MUCH more. And this life and world is NOT all there is. There is more. MUCH more. And anyone of us can see and hear it. All one has to do is know... the Truth. And half the battle of that is already won for us because he already knows each and every one of us.
Someone said earlier that truth is "what we search for" or something to that effect. The truth, however, is that what is really searched for in this context is understanding. What we understand becomes "truth" to us... and so changes as our understanding changes. And so, in this context, truth is very individual to each of us, as the responses show. The Truth, however, the REAL Truth, does not change. He is constant, always the same.
Again, I bid you peace!
A slave of Christ,
SA
 
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 7 years ago

Shelby!!..
Hey Girl!..Nice to have you home..
Where have you been?
...........................OUTLAW
 
AGuest
AGuest 7 years ago

Peace to you and thank you for the very kind welcome! I am glad to be "home" - LOLOLOLOL!
I've spent the past year overseeing the off-campus student, faculty, and staff housing program at a California State University about 2.5 hours from my home - . I lived onsite and came home on weekends. I loved the job but had to work 12-16 hour days as, unfortunately, my initial immediate supervisor did not get along with the University's Executive Director and was asked to leave right after I started, and then wasn't replaced until about 8 months later - . I resigned as of July 31st for a number of reasons including my health (diabetes got way out of control).  I am "between jobs" right now and have decided to take a couple/few months off. Kinda like a mini-sabbatical, if you will - .
I haven't come here (in case that's what you're asking about, too - ) for some time due, in most part, to not having sufficient technology - although my work computer was fast, I couldn't visit during work hours. My home computer (which I am on now) is over 10 years old, and so SOOOOoooo slow that sometimes I get frustrated, and my laptop didn't have sufficient connectivity when I was out of town. And, well, time flew by. Also, it got a bit confusing for me when the forum changes were taking place and other sites were starting up, and... and... and... I guess I just got a little overwhelmed with the changes here and in my life .
So, I took a bit of a break, which I find is always a good thing - helps me keep a proper perspective... and proper level of love... when I do visit. Sometimes things can get a bit "testy" here (or, at least, it used to) and I sometimes found myself fearful that I might allow myself to take things personally, you know, let the ridicule get to me so that I would be personally offended (which there is no need for as what I share is not mine, so) and perhaps "sin with my lips"  (i.e., hastily "return evil for evil" or "call down evil" on someome )... or even blaspheme  (i.e., take credit for, forget to give credit to, or try to fool the Holy Spirit)). As you and many others here know, I am just as imperfect as anyone else and so could get caught up in any of such things as easy as the next person if I let myself.  So, since my occupation was requiring so much attention, I just put a bit more energy into that and have been letting my Lord continue teaching me what TRUE love is. Of course, I have not mastered it (who has), but I am leaps and bounds beyond where I was.
Anyway, that's "where" I've been. What's up with you, and how the heck are you and yours, dear one? Perhaps you should respond in a different thread (or via a PM), though, so that Amazing's thread can stay on topic? Dear Amazing, please forgive me for "hijacking" your thread. It was not my intention, truly! Perhaps since it is an older thread you can overlook it. If so, thank you! If not, please feel free to ask a moderator to delete it. Either way, I apologize for the intrustion.
The greatest of love and peace to you both!
Your servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
 
OUTLAW
OUTLAW 7 years ago

Shelby..I`ll pm you..
That will keep "amazing`s" thread on track..
.....................OUTLAW
 

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Topic Summary
jws teach that 'accurate knowledge' is the definition of truth.
they add to this by saying that the 'conduct' of average church goers also identifies them as not being in the 'truth.
' and, they define their 'organization' as being the truth, because they are a clean people who are doing right works, and teaching accurately.



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Phone Interview with Tom Cabeen 5/16/08 on Catholicism
by Dogpatch 8 years ago 12 Replies latest 8 years ago   jw friends
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Dogpatch
Dogpatch 8 years ago

Phone Interview with Tom Cabeen 5/16/08
http://www.freeminds.org/media/cabeeninterview.htm
former Jehovah's Witness
now Roman Catholic in faith
Questions to be asked:
1. After all you learned about religion and Christianity as a Jehovah's Witness, how could you make such a blind leap of faith into an old, decaying religion?
2. What did you find wrong with the Protestant churches and evangelicalism?
3. What does Catholicism have to offer you and your family, Tom?
4. How differently do you view Jehovah's Witnesses now?
5. What is your recommended reading list?
6. What is a CULT to you, Tom?
 
BurnTheShips
BurnTheShips 8 years ago

A little tongue in cheek I hope Randy?
 
cabasilas
cabasilas 8 years ago

I missed how to listen to the phone interview. Will it be broadcast?
 
Dogpatch
Dogpatch 8 years ago

Hi y'all,
This is a serious interview.
Question: Is there more basis for faith in Catholicism or Protestantism? (assuming you start from the Bible as the Word of God).
Tom was my floor overseer at Bethel in 1977 right before the Franz Incident came down.
Find out why several families took a shine to Catholicism in spite of the harassment of others.
Randy
 
BurnTheShips
BurnTheShips 8 years ago

This is a serious interview.
Oh. O.K.
The way the first question is formulated just seems so off the wall.
 
Dogpatch
Dogpatch 8 years ago

This will be an mp3 of a phone interview, no callers.
We will do things like that soon as I ramp up technology,
I am gearing up for an exciting year at freeminds!
Randy
 
StAnn
StAnn 8 years ago




Questions to be asked:
1. After all you learned about religion and Christianity as a Jehovah's Witness, how could you make such a blind leap of faith into an old, decaying religion?
Here are my questions to you: given that the WTBTS lies to the their own members on a consistent basis and changes their so-called "bible-based" beliefs almost daily on a whim, why should anyone believe that what the WTBTS says about other faiths is true? Seems like, given their blinking "new light," they don't have an accurate grasp on what they believe, let alone what other faiths teach. Why would anyone believe that anything the JWs say about "religion and Christianity" has a modicum of truth to it, given the source? What makes you think Tom's "leap" was blind? Given that the Roman Catholic Church has grown to over 1 billion members worldwide, what gives you the notion that it's a "decaying" religion? Isn't it logical that it would be an "old" religion, since it's been almost 2,000 years since Jesus founded Christianity?
I look forward to hearing your interview.

 
NanaR
NanaR 8 years ago

Randy:
I'm looking forward to it :wink:
Thanks for the heads up!
Ruth
 
NanaR
NanaR 8 years ago

btt
 
NanaR
NanaR 8 years ago

btt
 

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Phone Interview with Tom Cabeen 5/16/08 on Catholicism
by Dogpatch 8 years ago 12 Replies latest 8 years ago   jw friends
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Confession
Confession 8 years ago

1. After all you learned about religion and Christianity as a Jehovah's Witness, how could you make such a blind leap of faith into an old, decaying religion?
I presume that Randy is not here asserting that Catholicism is "an old, decaying religion," but that (as suggested by his question) one schooled by the Watchtower Society might come to such a strong conclusion. A bit tongue-in-cheek?
 
NanaR
NanaR 8 years ago

Today!
 
NanaR
NanaR 8 years ago

It's done and up on Randy's website.
http://www.freeminds.org/media/cabeeninterview.htm
Enjoy!!
Pax,
Ruth
 

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Topic Summary
phone interview with tom cabeen 5/16/08.
http://www.freeminds.org/media/cabeeninterview.htm.
former jehovah's witness.



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Interesting discussion with a Catholic
by Terry 4 years ago 0 Replies latest 4 years ago   jw friends
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Terry 4 years ago

These are excerpts from an ongoing back and forth discussion I'm having by e-mail with a good friend who is Catholic.
I apologize for the length of it.
You can sip a little and go on about your business and come back later.

Ryan has the dark text and my responses are in the lighter texts.

... someone may be born into a Christian denomination but that doesn't mean they will stay with that particular denomination. They may move from being a Catholic to a Baptist to a Methodist until they find what they're looking for. While there are Jews who become Christian and Christians who become Muslims, etc., I don't think that's nearly as common.
 The religions with strong ethnic and historical identities are routinely found in society's where you cannot prosper if you leave that identity. For example, convert from being Muslim you will be put to death.
 And I would agree that most people make emotional, not intellectual decisions.
What we value makes us strongly respond. We are taught what to value, usually, by religious tutoring. The consequence is shame, discipline or being cast out. That creates an emotional response.
Still, the situation remains that when someone asserts a belief in something that isn't self evident -- ghosts, ufos, Nessie, the Yeti -- the burden of proof is upon those claiming their truth. Where is the self evident proof that God exists?
I think it was Carl Sagan who said, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof." Science only really got serious when it combined Karl Popper's idea of testing through "Falsifiability". The ancient Greeks abhored "testing". It was unthinkable! You had to PROVE your assertions only through argument.QED. That is how Aristotle got away with saying a heavier object falls faster than a lighter object for so many centuries. Nobody until Galileo tested it by EXPERIMENT.
As far as God is concerned. It isn't PROOF that is asserted as the cardinal virtue. It is FAITH. If Faith can give proof through testing we stop calling it Faith and call it Science Theory.



 There are any number of religious denominations out there. Which ones might have the truth, or even a glimmer of it? I think some of the criterion you list further down for societal norms might work here. It would seem that the religions of the world that are the largest and the oldest would be the ones to look at. Because of their longevity and the size of their membership they must have something going for them. They "work" and despite some missteps and mistakes have worked for a long time.
To state this fairly, humans have not been Free Agents until fairly recently. Having a protected "right" to assert personal opinions could get you killed in older Society's. June 1, in 1660, American colonist Mary Dyer was hanged in Boston for violating Massachusetts Bay Colony law by preaching Quakerism.

 So, it seems to me that if I was approaching religion looking for answers I would look at the "successful" groups, not the johnny-come-latelys, the fringe, or the new. These older, established groups have already done a lot of the work, answered questions, and established many of the rules incorporated into our society..
If I properly frame my response, I would have to say it was only after Freedom was established through Constitutional means the critics, Johnny-come-lately types could come forward to plead their case without being stoned, hanged, or thrown into the hands of Torquemada.(during Torquemada's tenure as Inquisitor General there is a general consensus among the scholars that about 2,000 people were burned at the stake due to prosecution by the Spanish Inquisition in the whole of Spain between 1480 and 1530.)
So, historically, in 1492, one historic religion (Catholicsim) kicked the other historically older religion (Jews) out of Spain.
They did this, as you say, because they established many of the rules incorporated into society.



    
 If "Thou Shalt Not Kill" is a truth, then is it any less a truth when Ted Bundy repeats it but fails to heed it? Too often people confuse the failings of the messenger with the message, deeming it a lie because a human with failings didn't live by the rules they promote. The failures of a beloved religious leader are simply proof of humankind's general state of imperfection and our need to be constantly reminded of the rules.
Ted Bundy was a nice looking guy who wore his arm in a sling and asked for assistance from females. They responded to his benign appearance and ended up brutally murdered. When it came to his own execution for these crimes he was all about: Thou shall not kill. Him, that is. As to whether he would EQUALLY apply this injunction to include his own wielding of death is a separate question. It isn't the great LAWS which make us great, but, the just application and interpretations.
The failures of a beloved religious leader such as a priest, can only be confused as failings of the messenger if the Institution of the Church quickly takes steps to oust them and turn them over to the Law to prevent further damage. By, simply forgiving them and moving them to another and another location, the implication of cover-up drowns out "it was only the failings of imperfect men" and attaches enormous stigma to the Church as a whole. Were this not true, how could the Church be sued and have to pay?
I've personally known non-believers who are amazingly charitable, kind and benevolent and I've known deeply religious people who are privately monsters in their own household. I think something MORE than belief, faith or knowledge activates the human species.
The only explanation for Love or Kindness I can fathom is this. As helpless and totally dependant infants we had nurturing, consideration of our needs and some kind of positive structure. We have this personal history to thank for our well-being. To the extent we reflect on this and mirror it we find cause to reach out to others and provide. It is that echo of "mother" in us. Norman Bates notwithstanding!
 This raises the age old question of whether we are innately good or have to learn how to be good. Very hard to say. Watch children at play. Some get along with others, share, and show compassion. Others are bossy, won't share, and are mean. ...
 We talk about learning social skills. Why would we need to learn them if we intuitively understood how to get along and treat people? Why do we need leaders and lawmakers if we all know how to act in the best interests of everyone?
We are born DEPENDANT.How we INTER-depend leads to success or failure unless we cheat and get away with it. Leaders and Lawmakers have never created better humans. They have created litmus tests for identifying and dealing with behavior.
I've known athiests who were wonderful people. J ust as I've known "Christians" or "religious" people who, at least on face value, seemed to fall short of their professed beliefs.
If my child is drowning in a Lake and I can't swim, will I prevent the Atheist from rescuing her? Will I insist on a member of my own church? Nobody would! Why? Effectiveness trumps beliefs. Actions are louder than bromides. In Retail, just one wrong word to the wrong person at the wrong time will out-shout all the perfect words before it. The customer doesn't care how perfect you were yesterday.

 Welfare programs take from the rich and give to the poor, and not in a sense of stealing, though I know at least one person who considers his money stolen against his will. We have poor who need help and Welfare is the appropriate response.
Personal charity by private organizations is the alternative. You target the recipient and can vet the effectiveness of the administration. When government does just about anything there is waste, fraud, abuse and miles of red tape. My old friend George has glaucoma. He can't work, can't drive and has to wait 3 months to appear before the VA doctor who will decide if he NEEDS treament. Then, more scheduling and waiting....
 In Oregon the state covers the medical expenses of children believing that no child should be without medical treatment. But we can't address all the ills of the Earth. More needs to be done but compare the human state of the past even within our own lifetimes.
"The State provides" means only the people who actually pay taxes and don't get it all back in a refund. With government picking who wins and who loses the private sector is pushed out by the superior resources of Government. Solyndra was a company that made Solar Panels. the U.S.Department of Energy guaranteed a loan of $535 million dollars for this "green" company. It then received a $25.1 million dollar tax break. What could competitors do to in any way FAIRLY COMPETE with this governmental one-sided favoritism? Private investors jumped at the chance to go with Solyndra with $198 million. Within a year the firm was Bankrupt, the FBI raided its offices and 1100 employees sued for loss of jobs.
Private strategy with private funding and private charity seems a better way to address the ills of the Earth. At least you are more likely to get transparent accountability than with Government.
 I have great respect for the eldest religions, the ones that have survived a thousand years or more. I don't have to agree with them, just recognize that they offer something of value to their followers else they'd never have lasted so long or have such large memberships.
To be fair, the eldest religions used the DEATH PENALTY, torture, shunning, maiming, Inquisition and banishment as inducements to remain "loyal". Is that a test of "value" or power? My kids with Leslie are considered Jews just because their mother was Jewish. Is that an indication of their choice of religion. No.
 In short, it is difficult for me to accept that a religion started last year by Reverend Joe would suddenly glom onto all the truths that the great religions of the world have missed for the past two or more thousands of years.
As I stated previously, people weren't really "free" to actively question great Truths without risking punishment until fairly modern times. The Ten Commandments were enforced, not mere suggestions! Even very recently a Danish cartoonist who pictured Mohammed was given a Fatwah death sentence by Muslim clerics! A fiction book, Satanic Verses brought a Fatwah to author Salmon Rushdie. Would Great Truths not appeal more to reason than fear of death?
 Rev. Joe would be using as his primary foundation The Bible, a document which is, first, owed to the Jews and their sources, and, later, to the Catholic Church. Rev. Joe recognizes that these institutions were good enough to compile the correct,essential information for him, but got all the interpretations wrong and have taught falsehoods lo these many years.
Each of the Great Religions is fragmented with sectarian violence among its most devout members through all of history. Jesus' greatest enemies were his own religous leadership. Wouldn't Jesus be the Rev.Joe of his day to the Pharisees?

    
 ... it's generally useless to point these people out, even the Jihadists, because they are not in community with the majority of their fellow believers.
To state this equably, the Leaders of the established religion must make a public outcry to remain innocent of the deeds of their most fanatical adherents. The Mullahs, even in the U.S.A. have not spoken out PUBLICLY denouncing the terrorists who strap bombs on and kill innocent bystanders. By remaining silent, even as the aforementioned Catholic hierarchy with pedophile priests, the taint of collusion, intrigue and CYA (cover your ass) redounds to the religion as a whole. Otherwise, how could the victims sue the Church and collect?
 But I don't go work soup lines or do Meals on Wheels or join up with charitable organizations. The proactive is much harder than the reactive. Yet, among my personal friends, I have very few who are even reactive.
Not until I started hanging out with charitable people (proactive) did I overcome my personal reluctance. And even then, it didn't come easily. I think it is a learned behavior in most of us.

 Galileo suggested that we were not at the center of God's universe. Big, radical ideas often take time to be assimiliated, whether merely assailing current science or threatening religious belief. Galileo, of course, was right and the church now agrees with him. But the core truths of the church really haven't been thrown out the window, they've been amended and enriched.
A point to consider: if ideas are treated as neutral opinions until investigated you have progress without violence. It is a matter of process and review. However, honestly, Galileo was not shown the counter-evidence of the Church. He was shown the instruments of torture! His telescope was called an instrument of Satan. His "proof" was dismissed summarily. These are not the actions of holy institutions with Truth on their side. It is the reaction of petty officials threatened with embarassment. What would embarass them so?? Simply this, the CHURCH over-reaches by claiming DIVINE TRUTH rather than centuries of accumulated trial-and-error discovery! If GOD DECLARES a Truth would it not remain a Truth beyond any disproof? Wouldn't you welcome challenges as an opportunity to demonstrate the superiority of the Divine mind?


 I see it in the light previously mentioned. Just because the faulty human minions get it wrong doesn't invalidate the correctness of the teaching. Even God's divine inspiration can be misunderstood by the imperfect human mind. But the truth remains.
I look at it like this. If I claim to be a Doctor and prescribe a medicine for your problem your confidence in my prescription will be assured. If I am Joe Blow who reads Prevention Magazine and I proscribe a cure by sucking on Walnut shells, your confidence will be different. (I hope). The CHURCH when it claims DIVINE TRUTH is like a Doctor. But, often, the TRUTH is not anything more than Joe Blow's opinion stretched to appear like DIVINE truth.
Churches don't get sued for malpractice. But, the test of Christian Science is to NOT call a doctor. Go figure.
The public needs fair labeling for food and drugs. We can read it on the lable. But, with the Great Religions, where does man's "wisdom" end and God's Divine infallible "Truth" begin? These Instituions always act AS THOUGH it is one and the same.
 I can't really consider the JW's because they fall into that Johnny-come-lately category of Christianity, trying to reinvent what went before.
What allowed the opening for Protestantism if not the failure of the Catholic institution to reign in corruption? Were God Almighty running his own house Martin Luther's protestations would be the ravings of a lunatic.
JW's took over where 2nd Adventists failed. It is the FAILURES of the older groups that create opportunity for adventure.
A better example might rest with Catholicism. The Bible calls homosexuality an abomination. This teaching has always been difficult for people to reconcile who have gay friends. Many people have wonderful, loving, caring gay friends. And the treatment of gays, the biases, bigotry, and hatred directed towards them is especially painful to their friends.
 Well, the Church now teaches tolerance and sympathy for gays. They are to be loved and treated as all of God's other creatures. Violence and bigotry towards gays is wrong and must stop. Many conservative Catholics feel that the Church is caving in to popular demand. However, the actual teaching of the Church, the divinely inspired part, the infallible part, hasn't changed a bit. Homosexuality is still considered a sin. When practiced. When acted upon. An abstaining gay person is like an unmarried heterosexual who abstains from sex. The desire to act is there but with no follow through no sin is committed.
 The fact is there was a death penalty wielded by each of the Three Great Monotheistic religions until fairly modern times. Only now, where there is a separation of Church-State no death penalty by cleric can be used. In Muslic countries, it is as it has always been.
The Romans would not allow Jews to use the death penalty. That is why the religious leaders brought trumped up charges against Jesus to Roman Authority. It was the Romans who used capital punishment against Jesus.
Does the church excuse Judaism for this or has it persecuted them through all of history?
The Catholic Church no longer practices Inquistion, torture or a reward for a basketful of Moselm noses in the same way that Jews were no longer allowed to stone Jesus to death. It was by the replacement of AUTHORITY of state over religious law.
Is this infallible law now or was it back then?
Anyway, I'd bet if a study was conducted by impartial, expert researchers it would be found that the teachings of Judaism and Catholicism, aside from those fallible, personal reflections by their leaders, haven't really changed much, if at all.
I suppose if you completely ignore the "putting you to death if you disagree" part, sure! I doubt it was by choice, however.

 Many, even Catholics, incorrectly think when the Pope makes a statement it is is infallible and must be accepted. If the Pope were to state that we need to redistribute the wealth and so we should break into other's homes and take what we want, he would be wrong though speaking from the chair because his opinion would conflict with the core teaching of the Church.
Vatican II caused a few problems!
As society changes the needs of people change socially, educationally, technologically and with their institutions. Any monolithic Authority based core of beliefs has to "breathe" or it suffocates. It seldom does so without severe external pressures to accomodate or dissolve.


 A whole new ball of wax. Just wars vs. unjust wars. Many, if not most, wars are unjustified. But when War is an act of self defense?
As a former Conscientious Objector I'll give you my old speech:
Jesus said "love your enemy" and "when struck, turn the other cheek." The craziest thing he ever said!
 Or when War serves as a police action to stop actions that amount to a crime? In that last I'm not thinking of recent Middle Eastern events but WWII when we came to the aide of our allies in defending themselves against the Nazis. Should we have stood by and let events proceed to their conclusion?
We cannot know. We are looking back to what happened WITH our participation, not without.
I know this(or think I know) the best and the brightest from every country died. Leaving behind the rascals, cowards and conscientious objectors to reap the harvest.
When to get involved or stay out is always a tough call. We don't seem to do it very well anymore, for quite a long while. I guess that's why WWII is called the last "Just War."
 Back in 1967 I sat in front of my Draft Board answering their questions. This was during the Viet Nam war, of course. One man asked me, "What would you do if somebody broke into your house and attacked your family? Would you defend them?"
I answered, "The Viet Cong have not attacked us. We have invaded their homes and are threatening them."
Another man chimed in, "What if all christians refused to go to war like you do?"
I replied, "I guess we would really be a christian nation. There would be no wars in which christians were fighting against other christians."
I now see it this way. Christians have seldom put Jesus words to the test: Love your enemy by turning the other cheek.
 That out of the way, if we accept WWII as a just war, then whose side would God have been on, I wonder? Would He have favored the Nazis in their attempts at genocide and world domination or would He have favored those trying to stop the killing, death, and destruction (despite all the killing, death, and destruction involved making that happen)? Or would he have abstained, merely shaking his head at our foolishness?
Had all christians abstained from WWII we might know. The more devout the believer the more eager to become the martyr, however.

 This brings us back to the old, established brands of religious beliefs. The ones that have been around the longest with the largest memberships. It has always been possible, and will always remain possible that religious truth will be misunderstood and declared true by those who have got it wrong. How do we know if they're right or wrong? We won't. But there have to be leaders, leaders until they prove themselves unfit to lead.
I don't know why secular Truth would have any less superiority over Divinely Revealed Truth. The test of history has certainly never demonstrated that. We spoke about Jesus saying "LOVE YOUR ENEMY".
That seems divine. Where is it actually practiced? Christians are quick to abandon it when Japan bombs Pearl Harbor or Arab Jihadists fly planes into buildings. Could it be, subconsciously, they KNOW it is crazy?
 The Catholic Church, and I suspect Judaism, has a teaching body. This is the interpretive arm of the church. The layperson is not left to simply read the Bible and figure it all our for themselves. It's not possible.
This is a Catch 22. How would anybody EVER know they had "figured it all out by themselves?" The test of orthodoxy is the Official pronouncement of some body of Authority.
The Council under pagan emperor Constantine "figured it all out".
Just because a group or person invokes prayer doesn't mean their "figuring" is True or False. If it is ratified and adopted and ENFORCED it seems real enough for the little guy.
 If the Bible could be so easily understood then everyone would have the same interpretation. And we don't. The Bible isn't as clear cut as the instructions for operating your new DVD player. If our spiritual lives are lifetime journeys why shouldn't that journey be available over a longer period time for the governing bodies? What's wrong with new knowledge and understanding altering or adjusting previous beliefs just as happens with individuals? Injustices are committed but over eons the behavior is corrected. This does not invalidate the whole kit and kaboodle.
Innovators, historically, are not welcomed. If your village has been planting crops a certain way every spring and some genius upstart proclaims a "better" way---who would dare risk it? In religious institutions innovators are Apostates who have abandoned the true faith. There is no mechanism to TEST dogma.
"It has always been this way." As mentioned, Jesus was an Apostate rabble-rouser if you were a Pharisee. Galileo was a pawn of the Devil teaching destructive lies against scripture.
And so on. Once you Authoritatively declare your teaching is GOD'S DIVINELY REVEALED TRUTH you have to DEFEND against innovation, contrary ideas and critics because YOU ARE NO LONGER INTELLECTUALLY HONEST. The test of intellectual honesty is "willingness to be proved wrong by evidence."
When the Religious Authority had the power (as clerics in Muslim countries still have) to threatened, torture and put to death critics, misfits and contrarians---it was the DARK AGES. The Renaissance, not co-incidentally arose when the human mind freed itself from dogma and peremptory censure.
I just don't know how we can eat the whole banana without cutting off the bruise. Instituions of Religion will not allow the "bruise" to be cut off or even challenged. As mentioned, the apology of the Church to Galileo came long after his bones rotted into calcium dust.
Not to pick exclusively on Catholics, mind you...The Calvinists burned Michael Servetus at the stake for daring to preach against infant baptism, etc.
 Calvin said: Whoever shall maintain that wrong is done to heretics and blasphemers in punishing them makes himself an accomplice in their crime and guilty as they are. There is no question here of man's authority; it is God who speaks, and clear it is what law he will have kept in the church, even to the end of the world. Wherefore does he demand of us a so extreme severity, if not to show us that due honor is not paid him, so long as we set not his service above every human consideration, so that we spare not kin, nor blood of any, and forget all humanity when the matter is to combat for His glory.

      Like I said, we humans can misinterpret what lays right in front of us. We're imperfect. And others can deliberately twist the truth to their own purposes. What's new?
 Since we can't always be sure we are right, should we burn Michael Servetus at the stake anyway as Calvin certainly believed? Absolute thinking has no appeal when it also carries corporal punishment behind it.
But this brings me to something I've been circling around this whole time. What are you going to believe? What are you going to use as your basis of belief? If you are an Athiest then you just use common sense, what works in reality, what seems fair and just to the greatest number of people, -the side of some belief system.
 Belief seems the easy way out. Here are your creeds in black and white. Here are our policies. Here is right and wrong (subject to change historically). It is like rooting for the Cowboys or denouncing the Liberals or refusing to buy any but American made cars. How many errors multiply when Truth is predigested into Dogma? At the end of my e-mails I have the following phrase attached: "What you believe you never think about again." Meaning, the hard work of critical thinking is no longer necessary. Unless we are able to change, free to think, not pressured to conform, allowed to question----we lapse into partisans. Merely ideologues.
I've read authors imagining how humankind, sitting by the campfire, staring into the starry night, came to the conclusion that their was something bigger out there than man. From this came the belief in a Creator, God. Well, where' the proof? If man, staring into the starry night concluded that our Earth had been created by a pink slipper would that be sufficient reason to believe?
 I dare say "proof" is seldom the issue.
You've got to admit, God creating us in His Likeness, His Omniscience, which puts Him everywhere all the time, all powerful, capable of anything you can imagine, is all pretty convenient. No matter what question you come up with they've got an answer. Maybe not an answer you accept, but they've got it covered. Doesn't it all seem to be a little too neat? And without offering one shred of tangible evidence. All you have to do is believe.
Anybody who doesn't pause to ask this question isn't an honest thinker. Just as the old saying goes, "Patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels"....I'd say "Faith is the last refuge of ideologues and zealots."
But these aspects of God are what you'd almost certainly expect from God. He wouldn't seem to be God if he wasn't beyond our full understanding. You mentioned that earlier. Do you really believe it is within your ability to fully understand God? It's best to admit that it's not possible. If we could understand God fully then we'd know all the answers. We see aspects, we understand pieces. Just enough to keep us interested, tantalized, intrigued.
Well, we can't have it both ways, can we? No. Either we cannot KNOW because we are so insignificant...OR....here are the reasons you should be persuaded. Why pretend BOTH are in play? If all the religious institutions admitted to what you just said above--they would be more honest and believable and humble. They don't and they aren't. Like a magician who fools us with what we can't see and don't know----religious Truth dazzles and mystifies us with whispers of Divinely Revealed to us alone......
Therefore, God is like a fairytale creature. We believe because we want to believe. Not because God appears like the head of Zardoz periodically and speaks to us. I bet we'd believe in Santa Claus if our parents didn't step forward and admit that he was they. Santa is what a lot of people want God to be, somebody they ask for stuff and who then magically delivers it.
Remember the Wicker Man with Christopher Lee? "Our religion seems strange? Doesn't your religion worship a supernatural carpenter fathered by a ghost?"
 So why do people believe? I can accept that people are born into their belief system. That's one reason. But where did that belief system originate? Regardless of how people got to thinking of God, whether independently based on their own logical conclusions, it is organized religion that has kept the ball rolling. Therefore, it's useful to climb aboard one of the ships to focus your idea of God. Do you want the Jewish God, the Christian God, the Muslim God, the Hindi Gods, or some other God? Take your pick. Choosing a team doesn't stop the musing, the reflections, the questions, or the journey. But it helps stop the aimlessness, the vagueness. And it's always possible to later hop ship.
What we KNOW we use. It works or it fails. Reboot.
What we believe we cannot test. Hope is not a test. Hope is a reason to keep on keeping on.
If what you keep on keeping on doing helps you---you suceed. Hooray!
If what you keep on keeping on doing kills you---you die "faithful". Our martyred hero.
We are born to die alone. How we LIVE is a success or failure according to our deeds--NOT our beliefs. Once we die it is the survivors who pronounce the verdict by their own standards.
Choosing a team is problematic. I did that once. I played by the rules.
Never won a game and lost all my "brothers and sisters" when disfellowshipped. No reboot.
That caused a critical analysis of the very process of HOW WE BELIEVE and WHY.
I've studied a great many books, writers, philosophers and teachers as well as what the finest scholars conclude about the bible itself. All I would declare is that I'm somewhat "informed".
I listen when people who claim to 'know' speak. I'm interested in persuasion, argument, proof, logic and colloquy. But, I'm not actually ABLE TO "choose a team". I would if I could.
I'm what Jonathan Edwards called a "sinner in the hands of an angry God".....or, I'm just a 65 year old father of 7 who loves his kids, lives a celibate life, spends time in charitable volunteer work and who doesn't have anything to prove. Subject to tomorrow's changes...Reboot.

 I don't want to sound superior. I'm a faulty human. There's a lot wrong with me and I'm often wrong and make mistakes. But I don't confuse the individuals with the institution, the failure of the human representative as a failure of the organization. But most people do just this sort of thing. They have real trouble making distinctions. Distinctions are fine points. Fine points can be grey areas. People don't like grey areas. They like black & white.
Instead of the Devil being in the details, I find, that is where the actual "truth" is discovered. Anything is true if you state it GENERALLY enough.
 This brings me back to why the public cannot be allowed to interpret The Bible on their own. This is also why we need leaders in all facets of life. When we get the right leaders they deal with the fine points. They look at the grey areas. The good ones aren't afraid of these aspects of life. They shepherd the flock.
My problem with the Bible specifically is that there isn't one. That is, the original autograph manuscripts don't exist to compare with anything for authentication. How did that happen???
There are no copies of the original, either. Decades after the death of Jesus the gospel (good story) was circulating by word-of-mouth--not writing. All those editorial flourishes (Jesus meant so and so) are much later. The writers are attributed writers to lend authority. And much after the fact. The first piece of actual manuscript is a postage stamp size piece of St.John, I believe. And that is a copy of a copy of a copy.
The Fundamentalists and Inerrantists only affirm that the Original Autograph manuscripts are uncorrupt---knowing full well there aren't any in existence to examine!!
The first christians had Judaism as a guide. Afer the destruction of the Temple in 66 A.D. the Paganized converts to christianity pretty much drove out the jewish-messianic christians. The actual "religion" of Christianity is a misnomer. It was competing, warring, disagreeable and trucculent sects all disputing one another as to TRUE TEACHING. Three hundred years after Jesus the pagan emperor Constantine, by fiat, orders a Council (Nicea) and allows a colloquy to ESTABLISH orthodoxy.
Christians could not even agree on whether Jesus was divine! After Nicea, first the Arians and then the Trinitarians gained favor with Constantine. How would he know anyway? He was a member of the cult of Sol Invictus. His mom was a christian. She collected relics (fabricated or not). Helena sought the "true cross" which was, of course, miraculously discovered! For a price.
I'm off topic....
I don't think the bible can be anything more than layers and layers of word of mouth guesswork. Certainly not actual conversations with quotation marks!
Yet, for thousands of years we argue over every jot, tiddle and nuance as though it were math equations easily proved by dividing, multiplying and inverting!
The reason no two denominations can agree on what the bible teaches is because IT DOESN'T ACTUALLY TEACH ANYTHING!
We all know there are good and bad leaders. The competent and the incompetent. Realilty tells us that we've got to keep an eye on them, watch for mistakes. But we also have to trust them initially. We can't be cynics who believe every government figure, every authority figure is tainted from the get go. Give them a chance and see what they can do. When they're wrong, stand up, call them out, make them responsible, but don't just sit back and carp about how all of them are no good.
The more authority a leader has (especially a religious leader) the more removed they are from impeachment. Look at the modern Ayatollah.
Political leaders are so ideology driven and the electorate so evenly divided--all they are good for is posturing and deadlocks.
 Well, you've given a couple of examples above where someone disagreed with the majority or where the majority was wrong. So, how do we know? There are many matters that don't fall into that category that reveal themselves by working or not working. In China, the government believes it has the right to limit how many children couples may bear. Should that ever be the government's right, even if it threatens to imperil the population? How long before concerns over the ozone layer and pollution allow the government, in the name of what's good for the people, determining when you can drive, or go outdoors? We already have water restrictions. Would the limitation and or removal of basic human rights and freedoms be okay if it were undertaken for the greater good?
There are so many people on earth now organized into blocks of leadership with law and courts---it is almost impossible to think and act with individuality without incurring the charge of "selfish" "oddball" "iconoclast" and "dangerous."
It almost doesn't matter to people what is "right" as long as they are comfortable in their ignorance. Being well-informed seldom means much of anything beyond the local news.
How can we escape "wrong" government? Activism? Occupy this and that? I doubt that! I think only REVOLUTION can bring about Reboot. And that is when the monster's faces are clearly seen as they take charge. (Are you listening Stalin? Castro? Pol Pot?) Yet some of these sanctions actually are or will be wrong. How will we know that?
Without the power to effectively protest and adopt political and local changes---it won't matter what we know or think. Effecting change is problematic under the best of circumstances. Look at a simple retail company like Sears. They are dying on the vine. Can we really believe nobody knows how to stop the bleeding?

    I find it hard to believe that this will ever happen in the U.S. because we are so conditioned by the media, movies, and television to see Big Brother all around us.  But I wouldn't rule it out entirely as most people are lemmings.  All it takes is a change of direction by the media, movies, and television to entirely reverse the trend.
Young people get their information from entertainment sources like John Stewart and the Colbert Report. Not deep thinkers. What person under 30 can honestly tell you how a bill becomes law? Who was a good president and who wasn't or why?

 I'm glad you bring up the concept of knowing. My life changed considerably when I accepted the fact that there are many things I don't know, that I will never know. I got very comfortable with the idea of not knowing. I started questioning how I know what I do know. If Missouri, the "show me state," really lived by it's state motto, it would know very little. The motto implies the need for empirical knowledge. Limited to empirical knowledge we'd know next to nothing. How do we know China exists? Have you been there? We rely on the experts, the authorities to "show us" though we're really only taking their word for it.
When I say I'm Agnostic, that's all I mean: there is a lot I can't seem to KNOW in any meaningful sense. I think that is a good honest self-appraisal.
So, in the philosophical sense, we can't trust any information that comes to us outside our own direct senses. From a practical standpoint, however, we have to accept that fact we have not directly proven are actually facts. Therefore, we are already in a "trust" mode most of our lives from early on. There's nothing wrong with trusting as long as we're also questioning.
An open mind is important as long as you have some standard of what you let inside!



    
x.
 I'll bring up Catholicism again. To a certain extent, it's a perfect example of this. Growing up, parents entrusted the Church with teaching their children about Catholicism. Parents came from the "because that's the way we do it" school of thought. You'd even got a lot of that from the Church itself. It was up to the persistent, the ones who could convince a priest or nun that they really wanted an answer and weren't just being troublesome, to get actual answers. Hence, many Catholics grew up not really understanding the underpinning of their faith. I know I was one and didn't investigate deeper until in my forties. Now, I can act as something of an apologist (hate that term) for misunderstood doctrine.
 It is almost impossible to know a different point of view or world view OTHER than what we grow up with. How can we not defend the only thing we know?  But you know what, although I blindly followed -- until I broke with the Church -- after investigating I found nothing really any different except that I now had answers, reasons, and a deeper, richer understanding that hadn't existed before, even though I consider myself a fallen Catholic.
 I think as long as you take Mass and go to confession they won't mind!



 I agree we are capable of rational thought but this brings us right back to your opening statement which I think is closer to the truth. Just as people are born into their religion, they are also frequently born into their overall belief system.
Had I not been part of a religion that predicted 1975 was going to bring Armageddon--and saw it did not---I doubt I'd have ever critically examined the actual basis of my entire world view!

    HAPPY NEW YEAR TO YOU!!



 Ryan
 

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Whose "mouthpiece" was Pastor Russell: Jehovah's or the Adventists??
by Terry 5 years ago 13 Replies latest 5 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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Terry
Terry 5 years ago

Either Charles Taze Russell obtained his ideas from Jehovah or he didn't.
If Russell didn't get them from Jehovah---from where?
Let's take a survey of the facts about William Miller and subsequent Adventist teachings.
Then, we can ask this question again!

When William Miller (Baptist farmer turned theologian) predicted the 2nd Coming of Christ in 1843/44 a large segment of America's population believed along with him.
Miller was invited to preach in church after church. He gave his points in sermons demonstrating the nearness of Armageddon. Perhaps a hundred thousand devout christians waited for The End. They sold their houses and early goods and waited on rooftops and hillsides for their Lord and Savior's return.
The nothing which followed is now called THE GREAT DISAPPOINTMENT.
It set in place a pattern to be repeated by others making similar claims. The pattern forms a chain of reasoning. Error to error to error and one great disappointment after another.
This is where our interest as Jehovah's Witnesses (former and current) commences.
Why?
Miller is a link in a chain. Miller is the origination point of the work done by later crackpots such as Pastor Russell and J.F.Rutherford as well as Fred Franz.
How can we say this with assurance? Better still, how can we prove it? Read on.
Many of the disappointed true believers in William Miller's chronologies and computations went back to their old churches and apologized. Others were convinced they were right and set about dedicating their lives to proving it.
Among the many True Believers, a woman named Ellen received visions telling her what the "Truth" was. She wrote many books and articles including THE GREAT CONTROVERSY. She is the founder of modern day SEVENTH DAY ADVENTISM.
Like William Miller before her, Ellen G.White is the next link in our chain of proof.
What is the chain? It is a chain of proof which leads to Pastor Russell and J.F.Rutherford and demonstrates they could NOT possibly be any "mouthpiece" of Jehovah or channel of communication or latter day prophet. Why? Because we will demonstrate that there are no ORIGINAL core beliefs to Jehovah's Witnesses. They were copied, stolen or merely wrested away from others and adopted.
If we succeed in demonstrating these counterfeit beliefs are, indeed, plagarizms we destroy the core idea of "new light" and guidance by Jehovah through one True religion in Brooklyn New York.
Let's begin with the core beliefs Ellen G.White recieved through mysterious "visions"
wikipedia: In 1840, at age 12, her family became involved with the Millerite movement. Attending William Miller lectures Ellen began to feel that she was guilty of sin, and she was filled with terror about being eternally lost. She describes herself as spending nights in tears and prayer, and being in this condition for several months. Historian Merlin Burt points to a three-step conversion process. She was baptized by John Hobart in Casco Bay in Portland, Maine, and eagerly awaited for Jesus to come again. After her conversion, in her later years, she referred to this as the happiest time of her life. Her family's involvement with Millerism caused the Methodist church they attended to disfellowship all of them
White was a controversial figure even within her own lifetime. She claimed to have received a vision soon after the MilleriteGreat Disappointment. In the context of many other visionaries, she was known for her conviction and fervent faith.
Read them carefully and ask yourself IN WHAT WAY do they differ from Pastor Russell's core theology?


Holistic human nature (fundamental beliefs 7, 26) - Humans are an indivisible unity of body, mind and spirit. They do not possess an immortal soul, and death is an unconscious sleep (commonly known as "soul sleep").
Conditional immortality (fundamental belief 27) - The wicked will not suffer eternal torment in hell, but instead will be permanently destroyed.
Great Controversy (fundamental belief 8) - Humanity is involved in a "great controversy" between Jesus Christ and Satan. This is an elaboration on the common Christian theory that evil began in heaven when an angelic being (Satan.) rebelled against the Law of God.
Investigative Judgment (fundamental belief 24) - A judgment of professed Christians began in 1844, in which the books of record are examined for all the universe to see. The investigative judgment will affirm who is worthy of salvation, and vindicate God as just in His dealings with mankind.
Remnant (fundamental belief 13) - There will be an end-time remnant who keep the commandments of God and have "the testimony of Jesus"
Spirit of Prophecy (fundamental belief 18) - The ministry of Ellen G. White is commonly referred to as the "Spirit of Prophecy" and her writings are considered "a continuing and authoritative source of truth", though ultimately subject to the Bible.

Dress and entertainment
"For the Spirit to recreate in us the character of our Lord we involve ourselves only in those things which will produce Christlike purity, health, and joy in our lives. This means that our amusement and entertainment should meet the highest standards of Christian taste and beauty. While recognizing cultural differences, our dress is to be simple, modest, and neat, befitting those whose true beauty does not consist of outward adornment but in the imperishable ornament of a gentle and quiet spirit."
Accordingly, many Western Adventists are opposed to practices such as body piercing and tatoos. More conservative Adventists refrain from the wearing of jewelry altogether, including such items as earrings and wedding bands. Traditionally Adventists dress semi-formally when attending church.
Conservative Adventists also avoid certain recreational activities which are considered to be a negative spiritual influence, including dancing, rock music and secular theatre.
Exclusivism
Finally, it is alleged that certain Adventist beliefs and practices are exclusivist in nature. Non-Adventist critics have raised concern about the Adventist claim to be the "remnant church", and the traditional association of Roman Catholicism and other denominations with "Babylon". [  These attitudes are said to legitimize the proselytising of Christians from other denominations.
Pastor Russell's chronology "proofs" of 1914 and Armageddon came from two sources.
Pyramidology and Dispensational theology. Neither of these ideas originated with Russell.

John Nelson Darby, (

STEM Publishing:The writings of J. N. Darby: On "Days" signifying "Years" in prophetic language.
On "Days" signifying "Years" in prophetic language.
J. N. Darby, 1830.
The question is not, therefore, whether a day ever means a day, when used in Scripture or in prophecy, confessedly literally expressed (as evidenced by a literal fulfilment, evincing that meaning), but what is its force, when used as a symbol in a confessedly symbolical prophecy? The consideration of the mind of GOD, as adverted to in the third principle afore stated, will give us a full apprehension of the reason of the statement, when we consider the value too it was to the Church - the principle of the "yet a little while," and the moral gap unfilled up by any events which made the time included in the 1260 years of this prophecy. As to the event not satisfying us in fulfilment, neither did the Lord's coming; and I would remark that there is no remarkable event of such external magnitude in the world's eye as to fix the mind on its evident fulfilment; and as to the former, to this day the terms of the seventy weeks are as much discussed and in the dark as the 1260 years, save that we, by habitual belief, have recognised Jesus the Lord, as the Messiah.
18 November1800 - 29 April1882) was an Anglo-Irishevangelist, and an influential figure among the original Plymouth Brethren. He is considered to be the father of modern Dispensationalism.
What is left for C.T.Russell to receive from Jehovah? In what way did he serve as god's mouthpiece?
On what did Judge Rutherford build that came from Faithful and Discreet contact with the divine?
Let the words of Pastor Russell come to mind at this point:

Truth:
"A truth presented by Satan himself is just as true as a truth stated by God. . . . Accept truth wherever you find it, no matter what it contradicts" (WT 7/1879, pp. 8-9). Charles Taze Russell
 
Terry
Terry 5 years ago


 
Terry
Terry 5 years ago



 
Quendi
Quendi 5 years ago

bookmark
 
Quentin
Quentin 5 years ago

Wonder how much of Russell's wife's ideas and belives were infulinced by Ellen White? Russell became his OWN mouthpiece with help from his wife.
 
blondie
blondie 5 years ago

I'm trying to find the quote but Russell said that between the early Christian Church and his time, that God had put various churches in charge of one bible teaching each. It was his job to gather them altogether back in one place, the true church.
 
Bungi Bill
Bungi Bill 5 years ago

Quite a number of different groups later emerged from the wreckage of William Miller's "Great Disappointment" of 1844. These included some that are still here today, such as the Seventh Day Adventist Church and the Christadelpians. It also included others, however, that have since been and gone.
Amongst the latter was a group led by Nelson H. Barbour, which was known as the "Second Adventist Church".
The Second Adventists "did a William Miller", and predicted that the world was going to end in 1873 (Later amended to 1874).
When this failed to eventuate, one of Barbour's followers (somebody by the name of Elliott) suggested that perhaps The Lord had in fact arrived after all in 1874 - he had just done so invisibly!
This idea of Christ's invisible presence was eagerly embraced by Nelson Barbour, who also now predicted that the end of the world would occur in 1914. When C.T. Russell met with Nelson Barbour in 1876; he, too, adopted both ideas. (Of course, Barbour and Russell later parted company - not over these issues - although much later, Barbour did discard his 1914 date).
This is where the Witnesses got the idea from that 1914 is a key date in bible prophecy - a fact attested to in Raymond Franz's Crisis of Conscience. It is also the origin of their doctrine about "Christ's Invisible Presence."
Incredible as it may now seem, for a time during the 19th Century, the pseudo-science of Pyramidology was treated very seriously. A Professor Charles Smyth published a book in 1864, entitled The Great Pyramid - Its Secrets and Mysteries Revealed. Russell quoted heavily from this and other similar works, and must have been quite excited when "chronology marks" on the Great Pyramid of Gizeh appeared to mark such signficant dates as the year of The Exodus, the death of Jesus Christ, AND - the year 1914. (the website http://www.gizapyramid.com/pyr.htm contains quite a discussion about prophetic timelines in the pyramid).
While C.T. Russell's predictions about 1914 did not originate from a study of Pyramidology, he did use it as further evidence to point to that date. Too bad that this "evidence" was from a pseudo-scientific source! (Moral of the story - if two dates appear to line up, it means nothing at all!).
Certainly, neither of these foundations of JW doctrine - the date 1914 and Christ's Invisible Presence - are orginal ideas. Both were borrowed from the Second Adventist church ; and the "Invisible Presence" doctrine was an escape clause dreamed up, not by the group's leader, but one of his obscure followers.

Bill.
 
cheerios
cheerios 5 years ago

quite amazing. as a member of the 'raised as' class, seeing history like this is just incredible. really makes a lot of their goofy teachings make more sense
 
Aussie Oz
Aussie Oz 5 years ago

This is/was my favorite subject.
when i first research the same lines i was blown away.
and thus disintergrated the last vestiges of my belief that the JWs were a unique religion that god was using.
oz
 
Terry
Terry 5 years ago

The PROCLAIMERS book is deliberately jumbled in its telling of the TIMELINE of events about the early years of the Watchtower Society.
Why?
The GB knows it must disclose facts and events due to pressure from the Apostate sites on the Internet. They cannot be seen as HIDING
anything.
Cleverly, they HIDE damning connections by removing the causes from the effects on the time line.
Names, places, dates, statements are snipped and rearranged from their natural order and deposited in separate chapters in differing contexts.
So the FACTS ARE THERE, but, it is a series of small needles in large heaps of haystacks with no clues to reassemble for the rank and file
member who might possess curiousity.

HERE IS A FACT that should not escape our notice. Not one JW in a hundred would have the background knowledge to allow them the possibility of
figuring out the truth abut the TRUTH: hardly anything of substance, originality or historical merit is contained in it.
 

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Whose "mouthpiece" was Pastor Russell: Jehovah's or the Adventists??
by Terry 5 years ago 13 Replies latest 5 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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Quentin
Quentin 5 years ago

How does "Jehovah's Witnesses in the Divine Purpose" compare with Proclaimers? I was 10-11 years old when I read the Divine Pupose, to me, at the time, it seemed to be upfront in its history. Whish I still had the older publications. Mom and Dad had books all the way back to the 1940s, with many bound volumes of the wt mags.
 
Terry
Terry 5 years ago

Proclaimers is a real piece of work!
More smarmy details are added. However, you'll marvel at how they've snipped around the embarassing events and placed them---no, scattered them--throughout the book OUT OF ORDER to mitigate the impact and the cogency.
It is mostly razzle dazzle and dancing around the issues.
 
Snoozy
Snoozy 5 years ago

I have the "Proclaimers" book..I read it , studied it and looked up many of the references and quotes. I found it amazing. Why? because of the history of the witnesses. It is a joke. And it is right under their noses..and yet they don't see it.
I too loved doing research on Russell/Rutherford and the history of the JW's..today knowing what I know, I would be embarrased to be a JW..really!
And Blondie, when you find it let me know. It sounds really familiar.
Blondie wrote:
I'm trying to find the quote but Russell said that between the early Christian Church and his time, that God had put various churches in charge of one bible teaching each. It was his job to gather them altogether back in one place, the true church
Snoozy
 
Terry
Terry 5 years ago

The Watchtower conception of Church history is really a conspiracy theory.
There was a small, ragtag group of insurgent "true" anointed who carried forward the secret sayings of jesus in all eras of history
which, from time to time, would blossom into an actual religious movement (The Waldensians).
As usual, the scholarship falls way short of actuality.

Ancient origins asserted and disputed
Some groups of Mennonites, Baptists, Seventh-day Adventists, and other Protestants claim that the Waldenses' history extends back to the Apostles. [ 1 ] Some Waldenses claimed for their churches an Apostolic origin, but this was far from universal. [ 8 ] The supporters of the ancient origin claim the Waldenses' name did not in fact come from Peter Waldo [ 1 ] [ 5 ] but from the area in which they lived. [ 9 ] They claim Peter Waldo in fact got his name by association with the Waldenses. This thought was current in the early 19th century:
"Some Protestants, on this occasion, have fallen into the snare that was set for them...It is absolutely false, that these churches were ever found by Peter Waldo...it is a pure forgery." [ 10 ]"It is not true, that Waldo gave this name to the inhabitants of the valleys: they were called Waldenses, or Vaudes, before his time, from the valleys in which they dwelt." [ 10 ]"On the other hand, he "was called Valdus, or Waldo, because he received his religious notions from the inhabitants of the valleys." [ 11 ]
The claim of an ancient origin has been accepted as valid by some Protestant historians, but since the 19th century the claim has been rejected by mainstream scholars. [ 7 ]
Other claimed founders for an ancient origin included Claudius, Bishop of Turin (died 840) and Berengarius of Tours (died 1088). [ 7 ] Many Roman Catholics contest these claims, believing the Waldensians were followers of Peter Waldo. [ 7 ] Likewise, the modern Waldensian churches themselves claim they start with Peter Waldo. [ 12 ] [ 13 ] [ 14 ] [ 15 ]
The AlexandrineLa Nòbla Leiçon written in Old Occitan ("The Noble Lesson"), has traditionally been thought to have been composed in 1100, but scholars now date it to between 1190 and 1240. [ 16 ]
 

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Topic Summary
either charles taze russell obtained his ideas from jehovah or he didn't.. if russell didn't get them from jehovah---from where?.
let's take a survey of the facts about william miller and subsequent adventist teachings.. then, we can ask this question again!.
when william miller (baptist farmer turned theologian) predicted the 2nd coming of christ in 1843/44 a large segment of america's population believed along with him.. miller was invited to preach in church after church.



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TEST YOUR INSIDE KNOWLEDGE: Watchtower Origns: a Saga begins
by Terry 6 years ago 16 Replies latest 6 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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Terry
Terry 6 years ago



IT BEGINS WITH WILLIAM MILLER
When William Miller (Baptist farmer turned theologian) predicted the 2nd Coming of Christ in 1843/44 a large segment of America's population believed along with him.
Miller was invited to preach in church after church. He gave his points in sermons demonstrating the nearness of Armageddon. Perhaps a hundred thousand devout christians waited for The End. They sold their houses and early goods and waited on rooftops and hillsides for their Lord and Savior's return.
The nothing which followed is now called THE GREAT DISAPPOINTMENT.
It set in place a pattern to be repeated by others making similar claims. The pattern forms a chain of reasoning. Error+Disappointment=Revision.
This is where our interest as Jehovah's Witnesses (former and current) commences.
Why?
Miller is a link in a chain. Miller is the origination point of the work done by later crackpots such as Pastor Russell and J.F.Rutherford as well as Fred Franz.
How can we say this with assurance? Better still, how can we prove it? Read on.
Many of the disappointed true believers in William Miller's chronologies and computations went back to their old churches and apologized. Others were convinced they were right and set about dedicating their lives to proving it.
Among the many True Believers, a woman named Ellen (claimed she) received visions telling her what the "Truth" was. She wrote many books and articles including THE GREAT CONTROVERSY. She is the founder of modern day SEVENTH DAY ADVENTISM.
Like William Miller before her, Ellen G.White is the next link in our chain of proof.
What is the chain? It is a chain of proof which leads to Pastor Russell and J.F.Rutherford and demonstrates they could NOT possibly be any "mouthpiece" of Jehovah or channel of communication or latter day prophet. Why? Because we will demonstrate that there are no ORIGINAL core beliefs to Jehovah's Witnesses. They were copied, stolen or merely wrested away from others and adopted. Those "others" had proved false.
If we succeed in demonstrating these counterfeit beliefs are, indeed, plagarisms we destroy the core idea of "new light" and guidance by Jehovah through one True religion in Brooklyn New York.
Let's begin with the core beliefs Ellen G.White recieved through mysterious "visions":
(from Wikipedia article; do your own investigation to corroborate)
 In 1840, at age 12, her family became involved with the Millerite movement. Attending William Miller lectures Ellen began to feel that she was guilty of sin, and she was filled with terror about being eternally lost. She describes herself as spending nights in tears and prayer, and being in this condition for several months. Historian Merlin Burt points to a three-step conversion process. She was baptized by John Hobart in Casco Bay in Portland, Maine, and eagerly awaited for Jesus to come again. After her conversion, in her later years, she referred to this as the happiest time of her life. Her family's involvement with Millerism caused the Methodist church they attended to disfellowship all of them
White was a controversial figure even within her own lifetime. She claimed to have received a vision soon after the MilleriteGreat Disappointment. In the context of many other visionaries, she was known for her conviction and fervent faith.
Read them carefully and ask yourself IN WHAT WAY do they differ from Pastor Russell's core theology?

Holistic human nature (fundamental beliefs 7, 26) - Humans are an indivisible unity of body, mind and spirit. They do not possess an immortal soul, and death is an unconscious sleep (commonly known as "soul sleep").
Conditional immortality (fundamental belief 27) - The wicked will not suffer eternal torment in hell, but instead will be permanently destroyed.
Great Controversy (fundamental belief 8) - Humanity is involved in a "great controversy" between Jesus Christ and Satan. This is an elaboration on the common Christian theory that evil began in heaven when an angelic being (Satan.) rebelled against the Law of God.
Investigative Judgment (fundamental belief 24) - A judgment of professed Christians began in 1844, in which the books of record are examined for all the universe to see. The investigative judgment will affirm who is worthy of salvation, and vindicate God as just in His dealings with mankind.
Remnant (fundamental belief 13) - There will be an end-time remnant who keep the commandments of God and have "the testimony of Jesus"
Spirit of Prophecy (fundamental belief 18) - The ministry of Ellen G. White is commonly referred to as the "Spirit of Prophecy" and her writings are considered "a continuing and authoritative source of truth", though ultimately subject to the Bible.

Dress and entertainment
"For the Spirit to recreate in us the character of our Lord we involve ourselves only in those things which will produce Christlike purity, health, and joy in our lives. This means that our amusement and entertainment should meet the highest standards of Christian taste and beauty. While recognizing cultural differences, our dress is to be simple, modest, and neat, befitting those whose true beauty does not consist of outward adornment but in the imperishable ornament of a gentle and quiet spirit."
Accordingly, many Western Adventists are opposed to practices such as body piercing and tatoos. More conservative Adventists refrain from the wearing of jewelry altogether, including such items as earrings and wedding bands. Traditionally Adventists dress semi-formally when attending church.
Conservative Adventists also avoid certain recreational activities which are considered to be a negative spiritual influence, including dancing, rock music and secular theatre.
Exclusivism
Finally, it is alleged that certain Adventist beliefs and practices are exclusivist in nature. Non-Adventist critics have raised concern about the Adventist claim to be the "remnant church", and the traditional association of Roman Catholicism and other denominations with "Babylon". [  These attitudes are said to legitimize the proselytising of Christians from other denominations.
Pastor Russell's chronology "proofs" of 1914 and Armageddon came from two sources.
Pyramidology and Dispensational theology. Neither of these ideas originated with Russell.
John Nelson Darby, (18 November1800 - 29 April1882) was an Anglo-Irishevangelist, and an influential figure among the original Plymouth Brethren. He is considered to be the father of modern Dispensationalism.




STEM Publishing:The writings of J. N. Darby: On "Days" signifying "Years" in prophetic language.
On "Days" signifying "Years" in prophetic language.
J. N. Darby, 1830.
The question is not, therefore, whether a day ever means a day, when used in Scripture or in prophecy, confessedly literally expressed (as evidenced by a literal fulfilment, evincing that meaning), but what is its force, when used as a symbol in a confessedly symbolical prophecy? The consideration of the mind of GOD, as adverted to in the third principle afore stated, will give us a full apprehension of the reason of the statement, when we consider the value too it was to the Church - the principle of the "yet a little while," and the moral gap unfilled up by any events which made the time included in the 1260 years of this prophecy. As to the event not satisfying us in fulfilment, neither did the Lord's coming; and I would remark that there is no remarkable event of such external magnitude in the world's eye as to fix the mind on its evident fulfilment; and as to the former, to this day the terms of the seventy weeks are as much discussed and in the dark as the 1260 years, save that we, by habitual belief, have recognised Jesus the Lord, as the Messiah.
What is left for C.T.Russell to receive from Jehovah? In what way did he serve as god's mouthpiece?
On what did Judge Rutherford build that came from Faithful and Discreet contact with the divine?
Let the words of Pastor Russell come to mind at this point:

Truth: "A truth presented by Satan himself is just as true as a truth stated by God. . . . Accept truth wherever you find it, no matter what it contradicts" (WT 7/1879, pp. 8-9). Charles Taze Russell

The "chain of evidence" which links Jehovah's Witnesses with Adventist die-hards influenced by William Miller (framer of the failed prediction of Christ's return which triggered the Great Disappointment) includes Nelson Barbour.
Nelson Barbour
One major influence on Russell's beliefs during this time was Nelson Barbour of Rochester, New York. Barbour was the publisher of the Adventist magazine, The Midnight Cry which had a circulation of 15,000. It proclaimed that Jesus would return visibly in 1874. When Jesus didn't return, Barbour was at first puzzled. His readership "dwindled to about 300" as a result. 8 One of The Midnight Cry's readers was B.W. Kieth who later became a contributing writer to Russell's Watch Tower magazine. He noted that in Benjamin Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott Greek/English interlinear translation of Matthew 24, the word parousia translated as coming was rendered as "presence." It was suggested that Barbour had the date of Christ's return right (1874) but had expected the wrong thing (a visible return). Barbour believed that Jesus was invisibly "present" since 1874. Most of his readers didn't accept this explanation of his prediction of Christ's return, resulting in his readership dwindling as noted above. However, one person who did accept this explanation was Charles Russell.9
In October of 1874, The Midnight Cry ceased publication. In 1875 the magazine was restarted as Herald of the Morning. After receiving a copy of the Herald magazine in about 1876, Russell was impressed with Barbour's "invisible presence" views on Christ's coming (which Russell apparently came to believe independently from Barbour) and he accepted much of his chronological views. His acceptance of Barbour's chronology came about in the following manner: After reading the Herald, Russell wrote to Barbour about his chronology. Later in 1876, Russell arranged a meeting with him in Philadelphia to see if he could convince him, in Russell's words, "that the prophecies indicated 1874 as the date at which the Lord's presence and the 'harvest' began." "The evidence satisfied me," Russell said. 10 Jonsson noted:
It is apparent that during these meetings Russell accepted all of Barbour's time calculations, including his calculation of the Gentile times. While still in Philadelphia, Russell wrote an article entitled "Gentile Times: When do They End?" which was published in George Storrs' periodical the Bible Examiner in the October 1876 issue. 11
Barbour and Russell soon became partners in publishing Herald of the Morning, Russell becoming an assistant editor of the Adventist magazine.

Herald of the Morning, July, 1878.
 C.T. Russell, J.H. Paton listed as assistant editors. "Times of the Gentiles end in 1914"
Pastor Russell's significance to the current religion of Jehovah's Witnesses becomes embarassing in light of the above.
Why?
Russell cannot be singled out as having included anything at all in his teaching which ORIGINATED from his status vis a vis Jehovah!
The peculiar and necessary doctrine of FAITHFUL AND DISCREET SLAVE implies that Jehovah works through ONE single channel of communication.  If all of Russell's teachings came from outside sources---where does that leave him as channel ??
It becomes all too evident that the source of Russell's "teaching" is not Jehovah. It is sectarian die-hards, pyramidologists, dispensationalists and not Jehovah!
What Pastor Russell did was spend his considerable fortune in assembling ALREADY EXISTING crackpot guesses, conjectures, theories and flim-flam under one heading while distilling them into STUDIES IN THE SCRIPTURES.
Studies in the "Scriptures?"
More accurate would be "Studies in Other People's Ideas."
To put his own name to authorship of these plagarized notions and allow himself (privately) to be singled out as the channel of God's communication is nothing short of Intellectual Dishonesty.
Jehovah's Witnesses today cannot find a legitimate way to unhitch their wagon from Pastor Russell. But, they seek to minimize the influence of the Adventists.
Nelson Barbour and his teachings, ideas and ESPECIALLY HIS 1914 INVISIBLE PRESENCE conjectures are the lynchpin of Modern Day Jehovah's Witnesses.
In the Proclaimers book the Society dances around his contributions and try to minimize him and belittle him.
For good reason!
HE is the source and "mouthpiece" of their KEY teaching!! Not the anointed or FDS!!
(See http://home.broadpark.no/~jhauglan/rutherford.htm)



 
wobble
wobble 6 years ago

Great post again Terry !
if only we could get active Dubs to read it ! but keep on posting, many a lurker on here has read, and thought, and eventually joined us.
The big danger for the WTBS is when people in their ranks start to think.
Keep it coming !
Love
Wobble
 
dig692
dig692 6 years ago

 Excellent post!
It's amazing how eye opening some non "WT library" research can be!
 
Terry
Terry 6 years ago

The research (meticulous and accurate) by Jan Hauglan is amazing. It beats anything you can watch on C.S.I.
 
SirNose586
SirNose586 6 years ago

Great post, Terry. It reminds me of the time I found out that my friend in high school was a Seventh Day Adventist. I was amazed at the similarity between her ideology and (what at the time was) mine.
 
zoiks
zoiks 6 years ago

Whew! Good stuff, Terry. I will be filing this away. Thanks!
 
Balsam
Balsam 6 years ago

Terry you always have such posts and really in depth research you do. Thanks I need to save that to share with JW's that contact me through AJWRB.ORG they are always full of questions about the origins of the WTBTS. Thanks
Ruth
 
wary
wary 6 years ago

Interesting Terry,
I realize the ideas been kicking around for centuries but,
I never realized that Sir Issac Newton had a share in it 300 yrs ago. Probably where Miller got his ideas from.
Google his name along with 2520 prophesy.
wary
 
thetrueone
thetrueone 6 years ago

What Pastor Russell did was spend his considerable fortune in assembling ALREADY EXISTING crackpot guesses, conjectures, theories and flim-flam under one heading while distilling them into STUDIES IN THE SCRIPTURES.
Studies in the "Scriptures?"
More accurate would be "Studies in Other People's Ideas."
Well said Terry.
I've always stated that Russell really was a plagiarizer of other peoples ideas, he just further embellished them
and then commercialized them to the public.
It was due to this self effort on his part which created a sorted
aura in the publics mind that he really was a spiritually guided messenger of bible truths.
That cunning salesman !
And then asshole number two stepped in.... J. Rutherford
 
agonus
agonus 6 years ago

The irony is that teachings similar to Russell's, i.e. pyramidology, geo-mysticism, gospel-in-the-stars type stuff have come back in vogue among many mainline-ish Christians. Of course, as you said, most of his theology was borrowed. Nothing new under the sun...
 

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TEST YOUR INSIDE KNOWLEDGE: Watchtower Origns: a Saga begins
by Terry 6 years ago 16 Replies latest 6 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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diamondiiz
diamondiiz 6 years ago

George Bell and John Aquila Brown also played a part which influenced Russell's understanding of what he taught? Bell with his 1799 date fo last days based on pope being the anti-christ who was taken captive by French and Brown with 1520 years origins being applied to the gentile times which both ended up being part of Russell's teachings.
Russell was just another man looking to understand a book that no one else has yet figured out. Many tried to apply various calculations and dates to figure out something that's not there. Russell wasn't the first nor the last who left a mark in history and who left a group of followers of his ideas. While bible students had some freedom of expression Rutherford took all that freedom away and made a cult that it is today.
 
cyberjesus
cyberjesus 6 years ago

fantastic. muchas gracias senor
 
Old Goat
Old Goat 6 years ago

None of the “core beliefs” attributed to Ellen G. White came from her, and Russell owes nothing to her. The beliefs listed were common to the Millerite movement, and preceded E. White’s “visions.” (She was a plagiarist, stealing freely from other Second Adventists including Horace Lorenzo Hastings.)

Russell entered Adventism on the non-sabatarian side of the clan. He was most influenced by those associated with Advent Christians, the Life and Advent Union, and various smaller sects who used the name “Church of God” or Restitutionist.

In my opinion Russell weasels out of the association by saying he owed something to Second Adventists (He mentions Stetson [Advent Christian] and Storrs [Formerly Life and Advent Union, independent at the time of their meeting]). His doctrines were borrowed from them, or he was introduced to them through Adventists. This included soul-sleep, his date system, his view of the labor/capital conflict, etc.

The Russellite date system was the creation of Nelson Barbour. (The best resource on Barbour and his associates is the book Nelson Barbour: The Millennium’s Forgotten Prophet, available at lulu.com. I can’t recommend this enough. It’s straight history, not a polemic. And it’s more damaging because it is well documented history and not speculation. The authors manage to point out the faults in previous discussion of Barbour and his time with Russell. The chapter on Russell is too brief for my taste, but apparently they intend to enlarge on it in a follow up book.)

Barbour had nothing to do with Seventh-day Adventists. After severing ties with the Advent Christian Church and then with Russell, he identified with The Church of the Blessed Hope, founded in Cleveland, Ohio, by Mark Allen. The church still exists as about two or three small congregations.

Most of Russellite and Adventist doctrine derives from others, particularly Anglicans. The prophetical frame work of both bodies as it was in the 19 th Century was derived from Mede and the Anglican Bishop Thomas Newton. Both authors were circulated and read among Adventists generally, non-Sabatarian Adventists (Second Adventists) in particular.

The basic date system that Russell borrowed from Barbour is the creation of two Anglicans, E. B. Elliott and Christopher Bowen. (Bowen’s bio. is in a footnote in Nelson Barbour: The Millennium’s Forgotten Prophet. Buy this book! You’re missing out if you do not.)

Daniel T. Taylor, a prominent Advent Christian and briefly interested in Barbour’s date setting, wrote Voice of the Church in All Ages. There are several editions; the later editions are more complete. He details where many of the Second Advent doctrines came from, especially their view of the impending millennium. They relied heavily on Anglicans, Lutherans (eg Bengal), and a few non-conformists.

To say that Russell borrowed doesn’t detract from what he tried to do. Borrowing really isn’t the point. It’s not that he borrowed but what he borrowed. The biography of Barbour I mentioned above makes this point:

“What Russell ‘got from Barbour’ is consistently overstated, the object being to discredit Russell on the basis that his doctrine wasn’t original. Russell would be horrified at the suggestion that he originated anything. He sought the ‘Old Theology,’ the Bible’s actual teachings. Even if one believes he succeeded indifferently, criticizing him for lack of originality seems silly.”

I agree with that. There is little that is original in modern (Post Reformation) theology. It’s all borrowed. So what? The issue is the quality of the borrowing. Russell, if you’ll excuse the term, sucked at choosing what to borrow.

Paradise restored, the death state, the Russellite chronology, his view of Armageddon, his no-nameism and more all came from some place else. This is true of Luther, Calvin, and pastor what’s-his-name down the street. All their doctrines are borrowed. It’s a non-issue.

The date 1914 does not come from John Nelson Darby. (Ever read Darby? He’s not the bad guy here. Dispensationalism may be a crock, but Darby was an excellent Bible student. Try reading some of what he wrote.) The 1914 date comes from several sources, but it entered Russell’s theology through Barbour who got it from E. B. Elliot, an Anglican.

Many of the details and sources of Barbourite theology are non-Adventist. Read the dang book I mentioned.

Also, while Russellites still view Russell as the “mouthpiece of God”, Witnesses do not. Witness theology underwent a drastic change in the late 1920 and early 1930’s. It owes more to Christadelphian roots than you may expect. Compare Rutherford’s Light with John Thomas’ Eureka.
 
Nathan Natas
Nathan Natas 6 years ago

Great work, Terry!
There will always be "new ones" who are coming here for the first time who have never been exposed to these thoughts. We can't tell all of them, "Well you should have been here when Alan F. and Farkel and Jan H. and "the Vikings" were taking the field!"
I have felt that to understand the origins of ADVENTISM a person needs to understand the deep psychic wounds that the Civil War laid upon the surviving USA. That trauma provided a fertile field for adventist ideas to flourish in.
 
garyneal
garyneal 6 years ago

Thanks Terry,
If ever anyone needed proof of this being a fale religion based on false teachings, this is it.
If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a CULT.
 
Chalam
Chalam 6 years ago

Hello Terry,
Another fan of this post!
Now if these core beliefs are linked with multiple false prophets, what is the likelihood of their validity?
Anyhow, I have provided a smattering of verses and text to help you draw your own conclusions.

Holistic human nature (fundamental beliefs 7, 26) - Humans are an indivisible unity of body, mind and spirit. They do not possess an immortal soul, and death is an unconscious sleep (commonly known as "soul sleep").

1 Thessalonians 5:23 (New International Version)

23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 4:12 (New International Version)

12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

James 2:26 (New International Version)
26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.


2 Corinthians 5:8 (New International Version)
8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 12:2 (New International Version)
2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows.

Conditional immortality (fundamental belief 27) - The wicked will not suffer eternal torment in hell, but instead will be permanently destroyed.

Jude 1:7 (New International Version)
7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
Mark 9:47-48 (New International Version)
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where
 " 'their worm does not die,
 and the fire is not quenched.'

Revelation 20:10 (New International Version)
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 21:8 (New International Version)
8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Great Controversy (fundamental belief 8) - Humanity is involved in a "great controversy" between Jesus Christ and Satan. This is an elaboration on the common Christian theory that evil began in heaven when an angelic being (Satan.) rebelled against the Law of God.
I noticed this thinking when I first ran into JWs, and as they described the story of Job and how "Satan got thrown out of Heaven in 1914". I remember thinking "where did you get that from, not seen that date in my bible"?!
To my mind, Satan is elevated to a god like status, a formidable adversary. The truth is God has nothing to prove and Satan is a powerless.

Colossians 2:15 (New International Version)
15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

Psalm 2:4 (English Standard Version)

4 He who sits in the heavens laughs;
 the Lord holds them in derision.

Investigative Judgment (fundamental belief 24) - A judgment of professed Christians began in 1844, in which the books of record are examined for all the universe to see. The investigative judgment will affirm who is worthy of salvation, and vindicate God as just in His dealings with mankind.
Another strange teaching, why would God "examine all the universe" and Christians? Doesn't He know what is going on already?!
There is only one time to affirm who is "worthy of salvation" but it won't be anything to do with self worth.

Matthew 25:32 (New International Version)
32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

Romans 10:9-13 (New International Version)
9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Remnant (fundamental belief 13) - There will be an end-time remnant who keep the commandments of God and have "the testimony of Jesus"
Yes, but the "remnant" are Jews, not Gentiles

Romans 11:1-5 (New International Version)

The Remnant of Israel
1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 "Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me"? 4 And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal." 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.

Spirit of Prophecy (fundamental belief 18) - The ministry of Ellen G. White is commonly referred to as the "Spirit of Prophecy" and her writings are considered "a continuing and authoritative source of truth", though ultimately subject to the Bible.
Revelation 19:10 (New International Version)

10 At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

John 15:26 (New International Version)

26 "When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me.

Do these "ministries" really testify to Jesus? Consider "Jehovah's Witnesses" for example.

Blessings,
Stephen

 
Terry
Terry 6 years ago

So many gleaners have gone over the same field and there is always something left to gather!
I believe the only "generation" of JW's left who know about/care about the actual history of the religion have learned to keep their mouths tightly shut by now.
 

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Jehovah's Witnesses and their American roots
by drew sagan 7 years ago 7 Replies latest 7 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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drew sagan
drew sagan 7 years ago

I've thought of this for quite some time but have never posted anything about it.
For many of us who bought into the Watchtowers ideals of a "restored christianity" the thought would never have crossed our mind that the movement was anything but nothing but just that. Even after a person leaves it still may be hard to get beyond these clouded ideas and see that many of the origins of the movement and essentially American in nature.
Of course, this is because it is an American religious movement. No matter how hard it tries to push past it's origins and proclaim it's global identity it can't be denied that the very American origins of the movement fully define what it is.
In the most earliest forms of American religion you can see the beginning of religious philosophy that would eventually make it's way into JW thinking. The early sermons and ideas of John Winthrop (Puritans) as well as George Fox (Quakers). I am always fascinated by similarities to early Quakerism and Watchtower thinking (meeting houses, rejection of clergy class, pacifism, use of the term "friends" to denote fellow believers). Eventually we move into the great awakening where the call for religious "revival" was extremely strong. Out of this eventually came people such as Joseph Smith (mormons) and eventually William Miller (Millarites). After "the great disappointment" (which bears extremely similar history to the Watchtower in the years following 1914 & 1925) we move onto the next movement which is Seventh Day Adventism. Throughout the late eighteenth and nineteenth century it was these forms of christian restoration theology mixed with prophetic speculation that would eventually push C.T. Russell to publish his Watchtower magazines in the latter portion of the nineteenth century.
But I do not believe the influence of American thinking and ideals on JWs ends there. Throughout the late 19th Century and early 20th the JW movement (and especially leadership) continued to be influenced by the country they we a part of and yet so despised. They would eventually fully adopt the ideals of the "cult of domesticity" in early american life (the place of the woman is the home), as well as borrow sales and business practices common throughout the country as a way to expand the movement.
When you take into consider the American religions produced at this time that would eventually be exported all over the world (mormonism, adventism, Jehovah's witnesses, christian science, ect) you see that there is a unique set circumstances that created this. It wasn't just by change. Whether they like it or not, JWs have a strong history in american ideals and philosophy stretching back to the earliest protestant settlers who came to this country because england "wasn't protestant enough".
This of course suggests that the Watchtower movement is something that simply has evolved over time according to the times in which it finds itself. While not something JWs are going to spring on as a solid truth (and most likely resist), I don't think you can really understand the JWs until you begin to see all of the many other American groups and people who in one way or another have shared in those ideals throughout the past few centuries.
 
quietlyleaving
quietlyleaving 7 years ago

I agree. And religions in general are an aspect of culture rather than an aspect of divine intervention. One of the big differences between JWs and other religions is the absence and exclusion of private, individual, independent spirituality imo.
In a different vein did you know that science began life, at least in Britain, in private homes. Experiments were carried out and knowledge shared in small groups in individual homes. Itinerant lecturers travelled from town to town and village village to dissminate and advertise the benefits of science. this happened from about the mid point of the 18th century. I was very struck by the resemblance to the JW way of preaching and teaching. Did Jehovah send the early scientists and other christian groups out to preach too?
those groups were just as dedicated and zealous.
 
Narkissos
Narkissos 7 years ago

Ideas, beliefs and religions don't fall from heaven. When they seem to, it's just that we are ignorant of the cultural context in which they took their shape (which may incidentally contribute to their attraction in different places or times).
Another important factor, I feel, is technology. Humanism and Reformation are directly related with the invention of the printing press which, among other things, made the "Bible" a distinct and more common object, separating it from church services and institutions. We can easily connect Adventism and Russellism with the development of journalism, Rutherford with radio broadcasting... The salesman in Chaplin's Modern Times, playing a record before his client (as the Watchtower colporteurs did in the Rutherford era) is quite exotic to the Europeans but I guess it may have been a common American method of advertising.
Btw, as has often been pointed out, the Watchtower technology dates it as much as its doctrines -- it practically didn't move into the TV era and since then uses new techniques (such as the Internet) late and reluctantly... otoh JWs are practically the only ones stuck in door-to-door activity these days which ironically now makes them look "original".
 
willyloman
willyloman 7 years ago

Groups can (and do) claim anything they want; it doesn't make it true. Dubs claim to trace their lineage back to biblical Abel.
The truth is, they can only go back about 140 years to CT Russell, an American haberdasher and would-be religious instructor.
No Russell, no JWs. It's as simple as that.
 
moggy lover
moggy lover 7 years ago

The Watchtower's American roots are clearly stamped on their bearing, vocabulary, and theological conceptualizing. The expanding American frontier brought with it an unprecedented innovative spirit that revolutionized not just technology but social orientation as well. This led to a paradox. Where technological development expanded the human experience in America, it conversely brought about an increasing conservatism in sociological thinking. Thus we may say that America was more conservative in its thinking that Europe was at the same time.
Had the Watchtower been born in contemporaneous non-English speaking Europe, it would have been more sacerdotal, more introspective and certainly more concerned with the minutiae of theology, especially in Protestant Europe. As it was, the rapidly changing landscape both in the availability of material wealth and the can-do spirit that epitomized America of the mid 19th C led American theologians along different paths.
Here there was a growing concern, especially among the less structured groups, with apocalyptic-ism and its attendant idea, chronology. Ideas originally gestated in Britain by thinkers such as EB Elliot, Henry Drummond and John Aquila Brown, found a ready incubation in America, which then led directly to the Millerite movement which itself spawned, via the Second Advent movement, Watchtower ism.
Russell borrowed most of his ideas, and certainly all his more important ones, directly from the Second Adventists, as a glance at his magnum opus, the "Millennial Dawn" series of books can show. Devoted almost entirely to prophetic speculation with scant references to doctrinal questions such as the Trinity, or the soul, the books are predominantly of the American Apocalyptic tradition of the time. It is this American-leaning concept of Watchtower theology that first ventured overseas.
If Russell was mildly American Second Adventist in his orientation and teaching, his successor, JF Rutherford was even more so. His legalistic patois, which at times scarcely resembled intelligible English, was pure American pop culture of the 1930s. My sympathies lie with those translators of his books whose schooling was ultimately alien to Rutherford ism, who had the unenviable job of conferring his lingo into their own native tongues.
 
quietlyleaving
quietlyleaving 7 years ago

In Britain, during the eighteenth century germanic seventeenth century pietism with its emphasis on a personal experience of God mirrored early British evangelicalism. Many British political and religious radicals also became more conservative because of fears generated by the revolution in France. Some radical dissenters fled to America while the British government clamped down on freedom of speech.
Ordinary people sought comfort and relief in hymn singing which tended towards deistic elements over time and towards inspiration from nature. Hymn singing eventually became acceptable to the Anglican church. Meanwhile the benefits of technology had been gaining ground. This tended to lead ordinary people away from puritanism and in some quarters towards it too. Add to this the new emphasis being given to the arts and literature in Britain Europe and America (not sure where Australia figured in this respect). Nationalism grew everywhere too as ordinary people began to express themselves. This is interesting, because to me it looks like Jehovahs Witnesses have taken a particularly radical stance against literature, the arts, nationalism, science and also towards Russell's more pietistic tendency to boot .
 
streets76
streets76 7 years ago

I read a good book a number of years ago called (I think) The American Religion, by (I think) Harold Bloom. There was a great section about JWs (and a good one about Mormons, too). I would highly recommend it.
 
kurtbethel
kurtbethel 7 years ago

That is a keen observation about JW teachings being an American religion. America has two main exports, weapons and culture. The culture is in the forms of entertainment, pornography and religion.
JW teachings appear to have ossified in the corporate culture of the 1950s, as demonstrated by the fixation on grooming and business attire of the era.
One interesting thing about religions is that as they spread to other lands they morph and become a synthesis of what they were and what the native culture consists of. Given enough time, JW doctrine in non western and non English speaking lands will morph into something different, even to the point of splitting off from the main body.
 

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Does S*** Really Happen? - my apologies for s***ty formatting.
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The FIVE exciting Watchtower Presidential Eras
by Dogpatch 6 years ago 21 Replies latest 3 years ago   jw friends
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Dogpatch
Dogpatch 6 years ago


Charles T. Russell Era (1879-1916)
Date: late 1800's. Okay, July 1879 if you want to be picky.
Current Religious Views: many apocalyptic leanings, prompting the origin of several major eclectic religious groups claiming that God had rejected the mainstream Christian Churches for their apostasy in the fourth century, and that He has now chosen a new prophet, a spokesman, a faithful messenger to re-educate the world as to the truths of the Bible, long-lost and unattainable by any normal human being. To gain eternal life, man must listen to the new gospel of this messenger(s).
This century sees the birth of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons), Adventism and its various offshoots (including Jehovah's Witnesses), Christian Science, Christadelphians and other smaller groups, each one claiming a modern-day prophet and new or once-forgotten revelations to the populace, many of whom we find shopping for new ideas, yet disenchanted with the churches.
Scenario: A young man who can't understand theology from a historical development point of view begins to feel that he is the "Seventh Messenger" (Rev. 3:14) given to the Body of Christ, which he believes (as did most every generation of Christians before him since the time of Christ) is living in the "last days" of man's dominion over the earth. Borrowing from many current theological ideas around him, including an "invisible" return of Christ (a la Adventists), the prophetic nature of the Great Pyramid in Egypt and other occult symbolism (i.e., Masonry, astrology, numerology, etc.), and a variation of the "Gentile Times" theory (a la George Storrs and others), he also denies the historical interpretations of Scripture such as the Trinity, hell as a place of punishment, and the existence of the soul apart from the body. Not finding much sympathy for his views in other religions, he starts his own. The Watch Tower and Herald of Christ's Presence becomes its mouthpiece, first printed in July, 1879.
Peculiar Opening Beliefs: The time of the end began in 1799, Christ returned invisibly in 1874, 40-year harvest period ending in 1914 with the complete overthrow of man's rule (Armageddon) replaced by God's rule, and numerous minor oddities regarding intelligence, black men, miracle wheat, numerology, and the size of men's brains. Perhaps nothing unique to the day except some of his particular prophetic dates.
Things Russell Would Currently be Disfellowshipped (excommunicated) For: Anti-organizational teachings, celebrating birthdays, Christmas and holiday observance, military involvement tolerated, not draining blood from food, considering self to be the "faithful and discreet slave," selling "Miracle Wheat," dabbling in the occult and signing his own books.

Joseph F. ("Judge") Rutherford Era (1916-1942)
Date: 1916, death of C.T. Russell
Developing Religious Views: Russell is still the "Seventh Messenger," but let's not get too carried away with that! In fact, let's take down his pictures, re-examine his dates, wear loud clothes, drink a lot, and basically be obnoxious iconoclasts that invite retribution. Let's separate ourselves from those Bible Students who remain loyal to Russell, and don't like our new bombastic style. We'll do that by scorning the cross, changing our name to Jehovah's witnesses, eliminating "pagan" influences like the pyramid and numerology, slamming the churches, and broadcasting hate messages against the Catholic Church and League of/United Nations door-to-door and by radio. Let's make Prohibition our enemy, refuse to fight for our country, and court Hitler's favor.
Scenario: Russell dies in 1916, with express wishes as to how his work would be continued. Rutherford attempts a hostile takeover of the Watchtower presidency, using his knowledge of legal procedure to buffalo his way into power, successfully. The "standfasters" remain loyal to Russell and thus several breakaway groups are formed, such as the Dawn Bible Students, etc. who still hold to Russell and his beliefs. (Several of these groups are still in existence today). Rutherford has an identity crisis (people were not prone to worship him), and begins a slow, political process of eradicating all traces of Russell-worship. He even goes so far as to change the basic message of the Bible from the simple gospel (the death, burial and resurrection of Christ) to that of "Jehovah's Sovereignty." (Imagine Rutherford saying: `You see, God has this court case going, and, like, the devil says he's trying to pull one over on mankind, and since there are so many angels in the audience, it's kind of embarrassing to him to be accused like that... I can relate, of course... so God's got to let it all hang out and prove to everyone He's not so bad after all... Kind of like my own situation!) So God's on the hot seat, and so is Rutherford for taking over this organization. That's the REAL universal issue!
Peculiar Opening Beliefs: Millions Now Living Will Never Die (at least, up until the Judge's death), Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (oh, yeah, and Moses, too) will appear at our conventions soon and since we certainly don't want them at Bethel, we'll put them all up three thousand miles away in California in my own mansion there. Just so no one gets suspicious about the house, I'll put their names in the deed to the house, but they'll have to prove to us who they really are before they get MY room!
Things Rutherford Would Currently be Disfellowshipped For: Signing his own books, beer parties at Bethel, aggravating everyone in sight.

Nathan H. Knorr Era (1942-1977)
Date: 1942, death of the "Judge."
Developing Religious Views: No blood transfusions for Witnesses or their parakeets, everything is satanic including crosses, religious jewelry and gifts from worldly relatives. You can practically get disfellowshipped for looking at a church. Smoking banned in 1973, but it's still okay to be an alcoholic elder. Fred Franz becomes the resident seer at Bethel, enticing the brothers in the steam rooms at Bethel with his Bible topics and fascinating all who listen to his absurd sermons. Franz was largely responsible for the 1975 fever, which practically had people being disfellowshipped for NOT believing 1975 was going to be the end!
Scenario: Charming or charismatic leaders are out, android presidents are in. Knorr, about as lovable as pea soup, is voted in and makes up for his lack of charm by expanding the business of organization. Birth of the NEW WORLD SOCIETY: "God's Organization." Gilead Missionary School sends out students all over the world, Knorr gives them a one-way ticket to ride, leading to depression and suicide for a few who wish to return. Bethel (Watchtower headquarters) slowly envelopes Brooklyn Heights, greatly aggravating the residents there, who are quite unappreciative of all the howdy-doody clones swarming the neighborhood (please, at least the muggers are for real!) The Watchtower becomes big business, with billions in property. Profit margins on publications rise as high as 500 percent, which "only covers the cost of printing."
This is the age of "discovery" in the Watchtower, where a spirit of free thinking allowed many within to re-examine the foundation for their beliefs. This age later "ended" with the Franz Incident of 1979-1980, where the Governing Body reached the point where their only recourse to those digging up the skeletons in the closet was to NUKE the closet! No one would ever discover the faulty foundation of Watchtower chronology if they could not TALK about it without fear of being disfellowshipped, or so they thought.
Peculiar Beliefs: Sodomites will/won't/will/won't be resurrected, the early Christians had a rotating Governing Body, blood is an "organ," thus no organ transplants, either. Rape is only excusable if the victim screams LOUD, you can't/can divorce your husband if he's gay (depending on what he does, exactly), oral sex WILL get you disfellowshipped, at least for awhile, but in the final analysis we really don't want to know (well, we do, but we must pretend we don't).
Things Knorr Would Currently be Disfellowshipped For: Nothing, I think he's still in charge!

Frederick W. ("Freddy") Franz Era (1977-1992)
Date: 1977, loss of his buddy, Knorr, who dies of cancer. Franz eludes actual leadership out of choice and "posterity."
Developing Religious Views: "Doubt" is practically the antichrist! Lobotomies are in, loyalty and spying will upgrade you from poor publisher/bad reputation to most-favored status. Witnesses must report all infractions of other Witnesses, even if it means stealing hospital records of secret abortions, etc... even if it means losing your job or getting sued! Troubled by our incessant changes in doctrine? Get a hobby to keep your mind off apostasy. 1975 was your fault, not ours. WE NEVER SAID THAT! (about any date).
Scenario: Homosexuals infiltrate the Governing Body and let go but not disfellowshipped. Ray Franz disgraces himself and the rest of theGoverning Body by denying their collective infallibility, is dismissed and set up for disfellowshipping. Spying Watchtower goons follow him down South and can catch him in nothing, so finally disfellowship him for having dinner with his boss, an ex-Jehovah's Witness! (Peter Gregerson) Ray Franz writes his self-apologizing Crisis of Conscience in 1982, and the entire Christian world holds their breath waiting for him to accept the Trinity, which he never does.
Governing Body fears getting busted for not paying sales tax when Jimmy Swaggart VS. State of California goes to court, so God wants them to offer their literature free of charge (but with a time-delay sales pitch for contributions). But God only wants them to do this in certain countries, because He doesn't like to pay sales tax there.
Even the Governing Body finally tires of Fred Franz, exiles him, yet in the end was the only GB member who knew exactly what he was doing. Dies in exile.
Peculiar Beliefs: Anything taught by Freddy.
Things Franz Would Currently be Disfellowshipped For: Listening to secret motivational cassette tapes that he never let out of his sight. Otherwise, he was too smart to be disfellowshipped. Besides, he invented disfellowshipping.

Milton G. Henschel Era (1993 - 2003)
Date: 1992, upgraded from vice to President at the death of Fred Franz.
Developing Religious Views: The Governing Body, no longer driven by a single personality, begins to show more conservative stance on certain matters, primarily public relations issues and legal implications. Increased legal pressure to appear "normal" in their views of college education, school sports and personal hobbies begins to affect how articles and books are written. Holidays not blasted for being pagan as before, psychiatrists allowed, college education not blasted, kids can actually engage in school sports if it "doesn't go to their head." DOUBT is still the antichrist, however.
Scenario: The most money, property and followers they've ever had, but also showing signs of reaching their final peak. Appear to be at the top of the cycle, with a roller-coaster ride ahead, according to the pattern of other similar sects. Growth slowed down to 1-2% in the U.S. in the last couple of years, though booming in countries which are as yet naive as to their history and tactics, such as eastern Europe and Asia. Redefine their "1914 generation" teaching with the October 15 and November 1st, 1995 issues of The Watchtower, which was one of their main playing cards. But Simon sez, "It's no thang," while older Witnesses know better. Many may leave (on crutches!). Dozens of breakaway groups begin to form in 1996.
Peculiar Beliefs: That they really are "God's organization," after all of this!
Things Milton Would Currently Disfellowship For: Dissension at Bethel, shortly to come. Why? A loss of respect for the leadership.

Typical Pattern of Exclusive Sects:
Stage 1: Charismatic leader develops a following of those disenchanted with mainstream religion. Followers suck up religious fervor and exclusivism like a drug, get heady with pride and a sense of meaning (for once in their lives). Tremendous energy for evangelism and growth.
Stage 2: Change in leadership or internal scandal, leading to a degree of disenchantment among some in the organization. The Watchtower has survived this "cleansing" several times, but due to their place in the wash cycle, the stains may not come out this time.
Stage 3: Physical growth in size, followers and bank account dictates a more conservative stance in order to gain respectability and more acceptable forms of power and control - transforming them from a radical, apocalyptic group into a familiar religion that causes people to say, "I didn't think they were a cult." It is at this point they achieve their greatest unity and power.
Stage 4: The "collective consciousness" of the rank-and-file members reaches the point where they "know too much," and the leadership cannot use the same heavy-handed techniques and motivations they previously used for fear of losing control, and so feign honesty and a spirit of "openness" regarding their past methodologies. (Proclaimers, anyone?) Generally, this happens when they have played all their cards, so-to-speak. No more excitement can be generated.
Stage 5: For lack of unifying causes and the organization's inability to goad the crowd once more, they get bored and restless, looking inward. Without a demonic enemy that must be opposed at every step, they become like normal people outside, and are no longer afraid to speak negatively of their leaders, whom they no longer respect. Dissension, division and fragmentation are not far off.
 
Dogpatch
Dogpatch 6 years ago

my apologies for the weird subliminal links, I think it's the earthquakes again!
 
Aussie Oz
Aussie Oz 6 years ago

Thanks... this history stuff is my fave!
um... i think you may have skipped a heading on rutherford?
cheers
Oz
 
St George of England
St George of England 6 years ago

I always think it is a shame that the first President of the WTS, William H Conley has been written out of the history. He was President from 1881 - 1884. During that time Joseph Russell was VP and C T Russell was Sec/Tres. The Proclaimers book gives him a one line mention. C T Russell became president in 1884 when he formed the WB&TS of Pennsylvania (INC).
Barbara Anderson has written about Conley and it is well worth reading.
George
 
neverendingjourney
neverendingjourney 6 years ago

Interesting thoughts, Randy.
There is not right and wrong way to classify WT history. These are just tools to help us mentally organize large amounts of data and understand patterns in the development of the group.
Personally, I find it more useful to think of WT history along the following lines:
1. The Russell Era 1879-1916
2. Rutherford Era 1916-1942
3. Knorr/Franz Era 1942-1980
4. Governing Body Era 1980-Present
I see the first two eras as you do, as the organization was defined almost exclusively by the men who held the presidency. I would, however, lump Knorr and Franz in together since you really had two men who steered the course for the religion in the ensuing era. Knorr was the boss; the bureaucrat/administrator who oversaw the expansion of the WT organization into a global empire, but Freddy had virtual free reign to craft the religion's theology. Knorr had veto power, but he seldom exercised it. Knorr controlled the administration; Freddy controlled the theology.
The way I see it, this arrangement continued up until Knorr's death, even though the GB officially took control before his passing. However, due to the strength of their personalities, Knorr and Franz continued to be the religion's leaders…that is until 1980. By that point, Knorr had passed away and the religion had been thoroughly embarrassed by Freddy's 1975 prophetic failure. It was at that point that the GB asserted itself and Freddy lost the powerful role of quasi-leader he once held. Freddy continued to be influential, but it was in 1980 that the GB steered a new course for the religion. Dissent was quashed with an iron fist. The era of singular leadership was over. The dawn of the rule-by-committee era had dawned.
From 1980 forward there was a steady move to erase all semblance of a sole leader. This move was further cemented when the GB resigned from their individual posts on the legal organizations, thus distancing themselves from their historic role in leading the religious group. This era has been characterized by a tremendous push for uniformity and premium on maintaining the status quo. Like a large publicly-traded corporation that has reached its peak, the GB has focused on maintaining its empire and attempting to avoid its eventual decline.
 
palmtree67
palmtree67 6 years ago

Thank you, Randy!
marked
 
Dogpatch
Dogpatch 6 years ago

Yes, we all know about Conley, the first Trinitarian president of the Watchtower!
http://www.freeminds.org/organization/pre-russell/russell-not-first-president-of-watchtower.html?q=conley
But there was nothing funny to write about him, and he didn't fit their belief system very well, so
OFF WITH HIS HEAD!!
Randy
BTW I am missing the picture mentioned in the above article, does anyone have it?
The item at auction is a "cover", or "used envelope" from 1903. In the upper left-hand corner (sender's name and address) is the imprint of "Riter- Conley Mfg. Company, Iron and Steel Construction, Pittsburgh, PA."
This cover is missing its right-hand edge from being torn open by the recipient. There is a April 3, 1903 Pittsburgh postmark on the front, as well as a 2c stamp. The reverse has the out-of-state "received" stamp dated April 11, 1903, as was routine practice in that time period.
 
Dogpatch
Dogpatch 6 years ago

Sorry this was Barb's article about Conley, I have two on my site:
http://www.freeminds.org/organization/barbara-anderson/who-was-the-first-president-of-the-watchtower.html
Randy
 
donuthole
donuthole 6 years ago

In light of recent times I see the eras as
1. The Russell Era 1879-1916
2. Rutherford Era 1916-1942
3. Knorr/Franz Era 1942-1980
4. Classic Governing Body Era 1980-2000 (Not sure where the break should be between 4 & 5)
5. Governing Body 2.0 Era 2000 - 2014
I agree with Neverendingjourney that in the early years the Org was defined by the character of her presidents, Russell, Rutherford, Knorr/Franz.
With Russell and Rutherford you have the president acting as chief executive and also chief theologian. After the passing of Rutherford this splits into two with Knorr leading the business and Franz acting as spirtual "oracle". With their passing the Org loses both the strong lead in both arenas. The Governing Body does not fill this void. As president, Henschel stays out of the spotlight and the GB enters the shadows. As the original GB begins to grow old and die out they sever direct ties with the management of the corporations. Time forces new appointments of post-1935 anointed ones and the new era of the GB dawns. Promotion of the GB as leaders continues to increase. Literature emphasises that they must be trusted fully and heavily promotes them as leaders. They begin to make their mark on the organization, making changes to practice and teachings.
 
Think About It
Think About It 6 years ago


Dozens of breakaway groups begin to form in 1996.

What are these groups and have they had any success?

Think About It
 

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The FIVE exciting Watchtower Presidential Eras
by Dogpatch 6 years ago 21 Replies latest 3 years ago   jw friends
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neverendingjourney
neverendingjourney 6 years ago

One more thing on your 5 stages of your typical religious sect:the JWs have been somewhat immune to this curve (compare them with the Mormons, for instance) because of the revolving-door nature of the religion. With its extraordinarily-high defection rate combined with fresh recruits (mostly from the developing world and immigrant pools in developed nations), the WT virtually replaces its membership every few decades.
What is a old and stale religious movement in the U.S. is a (relatively) new and exciting sect in Latin America and Africa. If the JWs were primarily an American relgion with the roots of your average member extending back into the group several generations, they'd be much further along in the natural progression of such religious groups.
 
mind blown
mind blown 6 years ago

Thanx...I can use this for future reference with family members....I'll bookmark.
 
cofty
cofty 6 years ago

Thank you , really enjoyed reading your summary. Understanding history is so important, the GB would love new ones to remain ignorant of everything except their own revisionist version
 
millions now living are dead
millions now living are dead 6 years ago

Good post. Here's how I see it in a nutshell. The evolution of a cult.
1) Russell - Crazy Religious guy who, out of rebellion to mainstream Christianity, starts his own "bible study group". Has strange beliefs and mystical in nature. Gets growing group of followers.
2) Rutherford - Takes out many mystical beliefs and makes everything more legal and "logical". The "bible study group" is now become like the other Religions that it rebelled against to begin with.
3) Knorr - As a business man, he turns the whole thing into a profitable business and stabilizes it as a Religion. Structure is now solid and machinelike.
4) Franz - With the machine whirrrring along, Franz brings an form of psuedo-intellectualism and arrogance that comes from the cult being at the peak of its power.
5) Henschel to Present - The Cult is now playing defense with PR moves and trying to figure out what to do since Armageddon didn't come and the blood issue more complicated. More bureaucratic in nature and terrified of the internet. They may make compromises in the future to survive or else go down.
Just how I see it.

Mil
 
Dogpatch
Dogpatch 6 years ago

I never picked it up before, but Conley apparently remained a Trinitarian and this miffed Russell, according to West70.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/99745/4/To-Barbara-Anderson-Re-First-WatchTower-President
West70 says,
I'm beginning to believe that the Conley's split from Russell in latter 1882, when everyone else was doing so for various reasons. I think that the Trinity was the final straw, but Russell's failed past predictions and future ridiculous predictions, as well as possible "plundering" of Conley's donations in 1881 may have all played some role in their split.


Yes, folks, it is a fact. The FIRST PRESIDENT OF THE WATCH TOWER SOCIETY left the Society and Russell's teachings, and eventually joined with a movement closer to mainstream Christianity. Little has been reported of this because it was in all parties best interest to keep this quiet.

If so, that's REALLY FUNNY.
Randy


 
free thought
free thought 4 years ago


***********Let's make Prohibition our enemy, refuse to fight for our country, and court Hitler's favor.****************
All churches not just the JW’s including Lutheran curried favor to Hitler 1933 as he was a confessed born again Christian .Baptist supported his anti-Semitism and communistic sentiments. Even the POPE waved the swastctiza and hailed there chancellor. Of coarse Hitler rejected JW’s right from the start but still favored other religions. Hitler was a confessed atheist, but only when he had the upper hand.
Rutherford was no doubt a loose canon ;but one must be grateful as to a legal precedent. which freed WTS from there bondages. The espionage act 1918 was designed to gag war protestors. Rutherford won on the grounds of the 1 st , 5 th and sixth amendments of the constitution. The government had to concede giving back all properties once seized. .....Jesus was also accused of espionage !
Note> USA is trying to gag Wikileaks on the same legality. .
Franz beef was not with Jehovah but with man. This is why he did not turn triniterian.The WTS had it coming, Freddy yet another proclaimed phrophet like man was used by Satan to discredit his name.
The truth is like a lump of gold buried hidden under the ground. First one must find the location by studying a map - the Bible. Then when near its location one must go about digging and sifting out all the dirt.
Because of mans imperfections Satan diverts attention away from the truth. Do not trust in Nobles !Would you trust in a metal detector? I new a man who did When looking for gold he came across a very strong signal. When digging he found it was just a tin can
But alas! False alarm! How so! he did not think that if he had dug a little further he would have found the gold hidden under the tin can.
 
just Ron
just Ron 4 years ago

Just 143,995 more to go then the end will come.
 
Band on the Run
Band on the Run 4 years ago

I did not know about the mansion for King David and other OT notables. No one seemed to know at KH. My mom told me when I was a teenager. I immediately exploded into laughter. She truly believed. Her moment of truth was when she went to a convention looking fwd to meeting Kings David and Solomon. She picked out her clothing and bought a new hat. There was new light at the convention. She never met King David or King Solomon. I cant imagine my mom being so naive.
I tend to think of the Witnesses, emerging from Russell which is what I was taught. Millerism and the Adventist movement you mentioned show that the Witnesses were predictable off shoots. I believe this is important b/c it indicates they had nothing unique. I don't have time to do much research. Do you know some way of learning more than is posted by wikipedia but less than academic review. I am wondering what happened in the 1800s that triggered these movements.
When I read history, it seems that men were more Renaissance people in the 1800s than now. The Epic of Gilgamesh was found and translated by an amateur. Russell had the hubris to think he knew the Bible more than anyone else in the past. The Great Awakening - was that in the late 1700s or early 1800s?
 
Dogpatch
Dogpatch 4 years ago

check out my ARMAGEDDONMUSEUM.COM site. :smile:)
Randy
 
Vanderhoven7
Vanderhoven7 3 years ago

marked
 

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Topic Summary
charles t. russell era (1879-1916)date: late 1800's.
okay, july 1879 if you want to be picky.. current religious views: many apocalyptic leanings, prompting the origin of several major eclectic religious groups claiming that god had rejected the mainstream christian churches for their apostasy in the fourth century, and that he has now chosen a new prophet, a spokesman, a faithful messenger to re-educate the world as to the truths of the bible, long-lost and unattainable by any normal human being.
to gain eternal life, man must listen to the new gospel of this messenger(s).. this century sees the birth of the church of jesus christ of latter-day saints (mormons), adventism and its various offshoots (including jehovah's witnesses), christian science, christadelphians and other smaller groups, each one claiming a modern-day prophet and new or once-forgotten revelations to the populace, many of whom we find shopping for new ideas, yet disenchanted with the churches.. scenario: a young man who can't understand theology from a historical development point of view begins to feel that he is the "seventh messenger" (rev.



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The FIVE exciting Watchtower Presidential Eras
by Dogpatch 6 years ago 21 Replies latest 3 years ago   jw friends
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Scott77
Scott77 3 years ago

marked
 
Leolaia
Leolaia 3 years ago

Frederick W. ("Freddy") Franz Era (1977-1992)
Wow, I never realized it before. I attended my first meetings in 1977 and my last meetings (I think) in 1992. Squarely within the Franz era.
 

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Topic Summary
charles t. russell era (1879-1916)date: late 1800's.
okay, july 1879 if you want to be picky.. current religious views: many apocalyptic leanings, prompting the origin of several major eclectic religious groups claiming that god had rejected the mainstream christian churches for their apostasy in the fourth century, and that he has now chosen a new prophet, a spokesman, a faithful messenger to re-educate the world as to the truths of the bible, long-lost and unattainable by any normal human being.
to gain eternal life, man must listen to the new gospel of this messenger(s).. this century sees the birth of the church of jesus christ of latter-day saints (mormons), adventism and its various offshoots (including jehovah's witnesses), christian science, christadelphians and other smaller groups, each one claiming a modern-day prophet and new or once-forgotten revelations to the populace, many of whom we find shopping for new ideas, yet disenchanted with the churches.. scenario: a young man who can't understand theology from a historical development point of view begins to feel that he is the "seventh messenger" (rev.



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Jehovah's Witnesses serve up LEFTOVERS from other plates
by Terry 6 years ago 18 Replies latest 6 years ago   watchtower bible
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Terry
Terry 6 years ago

The doctrines of Jehovah's Witnesses are not original. If they are not original and originating from their "faithful and discreet slave" class of anointed "prophets"--then they must be 2nd hand from other sources. This would at once disprove the proprietary claims of special relationship with god as his mouthpiece.
Where did their ideas, doctrines, chronologies and reasonings find their source? Was it the "anointed" slave or was it from earlier failed speculators who had polished a messege that got people worked up into a fervor?
For the answer to this we must revisit the time of the Watchtower Society's founder, C.T. Russell.
*************************************************************************************************************************************
Charles Taze Russell was born into a time and place in history when America was rife with failed ideas, movements and philosophies about mankind's destiny. America had been founded by mostly Puritan perfectionists and other zealots chased out of Europe for troublemaking and fanatical hard-headedness about God's purposes for them.
The first effort of Puritan colonists was to bring about God's kingdom through hard work, self-improvement and human institutions which would raise mankind up little by little to perfection in Jesus Christ.
This was seen to have failed by the middle 1800's and a new approach was needed.
A rural, self-taught farmer from a Baptist heritage named William Miller filled the need. Using just his wits, sincerety and a bible and concordance, Miller searched the scriptures and his neighbor's libraries for the answer.
Miller's research led him to the unshakeable conclusion that Jesus Christ would return sometime in 1843. Miller polished his arguments and began a preaching circuit to churches around America's most fervent centers of Christian enthusiasm. By the time 1843 had come and gone (without incident!) over 100,000 true believers had separated themselves from mainstream Christianity and divided themselves into contrarian groups awaiting the End.
Miller eventually apologized and died still waiting Christ's return. His following split into various opinions about what had happened and why.
New dates were set and disproved time after time radicalizing the most die-hard believers into hardcore Adventists bent on proving their ideas correct.
Two of these Adventist die-hards would eventually preach and publish a revised speculation that reached the eyes and ears of young Charles Taze Russell.
Russell came along 30+ years after a wave of End Times speculations had swept America. He had the money and enthusiasm necessary to join forces with these failed Adventist hard heads to "adjust" the message yet again.
Russell's speculations, additional refinements and money launched a Bible Students movement which would eventually prove as stubborn as the failed 2nd Adventists which had inspired him.
Prophecy Chart demonstrating that Christ would return in 1843. William Miller's date.
1843 prophetic chart illustrating numerous interpretations of prophecy yielding the year 1843Nelson Barbour: He published his own work in 1871, entitled Evidences for the Coming of the Lord in 1873, or The Midnight Cry . It went through two editions that year. The date 1869 is sometimes attached to the first edtion in profiles of Barbour. Both editions are dated 1871.
Beginning in 1873/4 he started the publication The Midnight Cry but soon after changed its name to Herald of the Morning. Barbour would later associate with C.T.Russell.
Adventist paper published in 1849 by Ellen White. Jonas Wendell's views influence Russell.
First edition of The Present Truth
Russell embraces Wendell's Adventist ideas that Christ would return 1868 or 1873.
Russell concentrated on all the available writings of his day and cherry-picked among the ideas. This included Pyramidology.
This diagram from Smyth's Our Inheritance in the Great Pyramid (1864) shows some of his measurements and chronological determinations made from them(Wikipedia:) In late winter/early spring of 1876, Barbour received correspondence from C.T.Russell, who was on an extended business trip in Philadelphia. Russell had seen a copy of the Herald and was interested in the approach he was taking, and their scriptural viewpoints since they were similar to those discovered by a Bible study group Russell was pastor of in Pittsburgh. Russell paid Barbour's way to Philadelphia and the two compared notes, and shared their views with each other: Russell enlightening Barbour on the nature of Chirst's return, the Ransom, and the errors of the creeds; Barbour enlightening Russell regarding the biblical and prophetic chronology showing that the "harvest" had begun, and that the return of Christ, and the Rapture, were due to occur in 1878.
During their meeting Barbour informed Russell that his readership was dwindling due to the fact that his subscribers were mostly disappointed Adventists who remembered the "Great Disappointment", but were now losing their faith due to the fact certain expectations for the year 1873/4 had not materialized. Russell encouraged Barbour to do all that he could to build his subscription list, and gave him several thousand dollars to begin the workings of a ministry which would result in the printing of the book Three Worlds; or Plan of Redemption in 1877, outlining their mutual viewpoints as of that time, along with The Object and Manner of our Lord's Return written by Russell in 1874 illustrating that Christ returns to bless the earth, not burn it up. Christ is also to return invisibly, as a spirit, since he was resurrected as a spirit, and the Bible informs us that only his true followers would discern his return. The Herald magazine for the entire year of 1877 was divided up as the text of Three Worlds.
Barbour and his followers now started to reexamine the evidence. One of Barbour’s readers, B. W. Keith , came up with a solution. Having obtained a new translation of the New Testament, Benjamin Wilson’s The Emphatic Diaglott, Keith noticed a marginal alternative translation of Parousia, the Greek word normally translated ‘coming,’ namely ‘presence.’[11] None of these men were skilled in Biblical Greek, but the idea took hold that what had started in 1874 was indeed Christ’s invisible presence. [12] (Jonsson 1983) This year, Barbour said, started a millennial morning, and the periodical The Midnight Cry became The Herald of the Morning. Barbour failed to convince many of his original readers, but he did manage to convert one young man. This man was Charles Taze Russell (1852-1916). (http://home.broadpark.no/~jhauglan/rutherford.htm#_Toc493437572)
(Wikipedia:) When, again, the expectations hoped for did not come to pass, Barbour and numerous other Adventist readers were heart-broken. Although Barbour felt intensely embarrassed and took responsibility for building what he called a "false hope" for his brethren, Russell believed this was an opportunity to figure out what happened. The chronology was correct, therefore there could not be any error in calculation. This meant, to him, that something went wrong with their expectations, and this lead him to carefully reconsider what the scriptures actually say about the 'first resurrection'. Russell concluded that an invisible process had newly begun: as each of the faithful die, they do not sleep in death as those of old, but are immediately changed "in the blinking of an eye" at the moment of their earthly death. Barbour could not accept this reasoning, and attempted to divert his readers' attention away from what he considered an error in the chronology. This circumstance lead to doctrinal debates in the pages of the Herald between Barbour, J.H. Paton, and Russell. Russell or Paton would write an article on some doctrinal point, and Barbour would add editorial comments, or discount it by an entire article. This went on for a while, until Russell withdrew his association with Barbour, both physically and financially. In July 1879, Russell began his own publication, Zion's Watch Tower and Herald of Christ's Presence. The first issue contained a long, detailed supplement explaining why he had split from Barbour and why he was starting his own paper.
After their split, Barbour began to write articles which disputed some of Russell's views and claims appearing in the Watch Tower. In 1880 he began to write his opinion about what the symbols of the Jewish Tabernacle meant. Russell was convinced Barbour was in error, and soon wrote Tabernacle Shadows of the Better Sacrifices outlining, in great detail, what he and his study group believed was the true understanding of those symbols. At this point there is no more association between Barbour and Russell.
Barbour continued the "Herald of the Morning," though with breaks, until at least 1903, occasionally issuing statements critical of C. T. Russell. He wrote favorably though cautiously that he was persuaded 1896 was the date for Christ's visible return. This wasn't original with him, but grew out of the Advent Christian Church. He abandoned belief in an invisible return earlier, about 1884, and wrote a small pamphlet labeling the view as "spiritism." There are no known surviving copies.
C.T.Russell picked the bones of William Miller and Miller's supporters. He didn't have an original clue; only variations.
Russell, just like Miller, was proved wrong again and again. Just like Miller's followers he and his own group sought to plug the holes in the failures.
Was Russell "inspired"? Was Russell the "mouthpiece of God?" Was Russell being directed by Jehovah to reveal accurate knowledge? Or was this just another hoax believed by hard-headed and zealous misfits?
History tells the tale.
In 1975 another failure shovelled yet more dirt on the grave of William Miller and buried the hopes of Jehovah's Witnesses.
2nd Adventists had already morphed into contrarian side issues such as the Sabbath celebration on Saturday instead of Sunday. Seventh Day Adventists are a vigorous and successful religious denomination who still pick Miller's bones for fragments of "truth". Russell's Bible Student movement split into International Bible Students and Jehovah's Witnesses. JW's promote side issues too such as blood-transfusion, flag salute and other contrarian doctrines.
All of this is grave-robbing and none of it is original or inspired by the spirit of God leading fanatical man-made denominations hell-bent on proving their own peculiar fantasies true.
Russell was like a jazz musician playing variations on a theme composed by others. If Miller was wrong; Russell was wrong. If Adventism was contrarian and schismatic; Russell's doctrines were too.
The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is living proof that bad ideas won't die where stubborness and radical zeal replace humility and a mild spirit.
 
Simon Morley
Simon Morley 6 years ago

Good points Terry, I read with interest " Observations Upon the Prophecies of Daniel and the Apocalypse of St. John" By Sir Isaac Newton. The Daniel and Revelation books by Russell and WTBS bear remarkable similarities to Sir Isssac Newton's work. Given that Sir Issac Newton was a gifted mathemetician, physist and a recognized expert in Latin and Greek I would trust his observations over some hack who simply picks up were others leave off.
I alwaye believed that the WTBS was inspired in their wrtings. Now I know different.
 
sd-7
sd-7 6 years ago

Excellent points. I noticed that they even serve up leftovers from their OWN plates, as evidenced below...

*** g788/22p.3DoOthersDoYourThinking?***
True educators present all sides of an issue and encourage discussion. Propagandists hammer hard on their view and discourage discussion. Many times their true motives are hidden. They sift the facts, tell the favorable ones and conceal the others. They distort and twist facts, specialize in lies and half-truths. Your emotions, not your logical thinking abilities, are their target. Many fall easy prey because it takes no effort to feel, whereas thinking is hard labor. And the propagandist sees to it that his message is made to seem wise, the right and moral one, and gives you a sense of importance and belonging if you follow it. You are one of the smart ones, you are not alone, you are comfortable and secure—so they say.

*** g006/22p.9DoNotBeaVictimofPropaganda!***
Good educators present all sides of an issue and encourage discussion. Propagandists relentlessly force you to hear their view and discourage discussion. Often their real motives are not apparent. They sift the facts, exploiting the useful ones and concealing the others. They also distort and twist facts, specializing in lies and half-truths. Your emotions, not your logical thinking abilities, are their target.
The propagandist makes sure that his message appears to be the right and moral one and that it gives you a sense of importance and belonging if you follow it. You are one of the smart ones, you are not alone, you are comfortable and secure—so they say.
 
moshe
moshe 6 years ago

Which goes to show how hard it is for a person to have an original thought, so the next best thing is to gussie an old one so people will think it is new. I just read that 1 in 10 people are stupid, ie, unable to understand how their present actions will shape their future.-That's plenty of fodder for religions to harvest.
 
Billy the Ex-Bethelite
Billy the Ex-Bethelite 6 years ago

Just dump more ketchup on the leftovers and the sheeples will never notice that the meatloaf has been in the fridge since 1843!
 
zoiks
zoiks 6 years ago

Mmm....meatloaf in due season...drool
 
leavingwt
leavingwt 6 years ago

Reminds me of supper at Bethel: leftovers from breakfast and lunch.
 
BurnTheShips
BurnTheShips 6 years ago

Potluck in due season!
 
Billy the Ex-Bethelite
Billy the Ex-Bethelite 6 years ago

Lwt: "Reminds me of supper at Bethel:..."
Burp-loaf.
 
leavingwt
leavingwt 6 years ago

Man, supper was a joke. I felt like a loser, surrounded by losers, when I would go down for supper. It was a sign to the whole world that you couldn't even afford a sixty-cent frozen burrito from the commisary.
 

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Jehovah's Witnesses serve up LEFTOVERS from other plates
by Terry 6 years ago 18 Replies latest 6 years ago   watchtower bible
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BurnTheShips
BurnTheShips 6 years ago

You humble gleaner you.
BTS
 
fresh prince of ohio
fresh prince of ohio 6 years ago

Great post terry. Really all of Christianity is picking the bones of a 1st Century crank-zealot named Paul.
 
stillajwexelder
stillajwexelder 6 years ago

bookmarked -thanks Terry - great summary
 
startingover
startingover 6 years ago

Another great post Terry! I have a question, how can you possibly keep starting these great threads. Is that why you disappeared for a while, you were busy composing a whole slough of threads that you could share with us? Whatever, keep it up.
 
Terry
Terry 6 years ago

Another great post Terry! I have a question, how can you possibly keep starting these great threads. Is that why you disappeared for a while, you were busy composing a whole slough of threads that you could share with us? Whatever, keep it up.

I can only think about the whole JW gestalt for little while without going looney and getting depressed.
Then, I have to go away and shut it off.
Subconsciouly, I work out my analysis by posting here and letting others give me feedback.
I'm looking for the e=mc2 that ties it all up with pithy exactitude.
So far I've shrunk the problem way down in size to THE BIBLE.
That is the foundational flaw in Jehovah's Witness theology.
They are inerrantists, which is ludicrous and untenable intellectually. It is dishonest.
The only sane way to unseat their megalomania is to shine a bright light on the fraud of an inspired Bible.
Hammer away on the fact there are no manuscripts of an autograph original nature in existence anywhere.
This proves God did NOT seek to preserve the written word.
This means each of us is own his own in a one to one with the Divine.
And that is the death knell for organized religion in any form.
 
jehovahsheep
jehovahsheep 6 years ago

even though they have discarded most of russells doctrine-you are right they are a futurist religion that has grown into a huge monster.i have been gone 4 years and have noticed that the publishers are charging money for the mags again denoting financial woes.
 
Gregor
Gregor 6 years ago

Found a hair in my spiritual food. Put me right off.
 
WTWizard
WTWizard 6 years ago

The witlesses are what's left of the group of cults starting in the 1840s. They all seemed to have the end time themselves, and the witlesses started with the pretext that the end was to come in 1874. Of course, they upped the date to 1878, then 1914 (and much later) when these prophesies failed. They are also cousins of the Seventh Day Adventist religion.
Not only that, but Boozerford hijacked the cult. Which was extremely rude--he started making all sorts of oppressive rules, demanding field circus from everyone, and putting people in harm's way "for the Lord". And it has gone from bad to worse ever since.
 
LongHairGal
LongHairGal 6 years ago

This is all true and I am sorry I didn't know this because I could have saved myself some wasted years. They claimed they were just 'bible students who had no clergy'. It makes me angry to know about the Adventist connection. The JW religion is almost from the same era as P.T. Barnum and he coined a famous phrase that applies to me and that I should never forget.
I was simply interested in 'end time prophecy' and I ended up getting 'sucked' into a dictatorship!
 

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Topic Summary
the doctrines of jehovah's witnesses are not original.. if they are not original and originating from their "faithful and discreet slave" class of anointed "prophets"--then they must be 2nd hand from other sources.. this would at once disprove the proprietary claims of special relationship with god as his mouthpiece.where did their ideas, doctrines, chronologies and reasonings find their source?
was it the "anointed" slave or was it from earlier failed speculators who had polished a messege that got people worked up into a fervor?.
for the answer to this we must revisit the time of the watchtower society's founder, c.t.



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Jehovah's Witnesses: The Ruination of Nigeria?
by Country Girl 11 years ago 0 Replies latest 11 years ago   watchtower beliefs
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Country Girl
Country Girl 11 years ago


RE: HOW FOREIGN RELIGIONS RUINED OUR SOCIETIES

 oreign religions have ruined our society" so let's revert back to the old ways! This so-called democracy is bad for us, so let's adopt communism instead! The present representatives are not serving our interests, so let's have a national dialog with a different set of representatives (at least in this case we shall keep both groups of reps and pay them both to do the same thing!) The list is endless! It all boils down to the fact that we all seek quick fix to a problem we have not even defined; toss this and grab another that seemed to have once worked in some distant past or in some far away foreign country. It is all in the way we approach problems, and this article, http://www.nigeriaworld.com/articles/2005/jan/122.html, to which I am responding is yet another display of mental laziness!

Did anyone notice that Adeniba, the writer of the article, never once mentioned the name of at least one of the so-called African (?) religions to which he is advocating we should now revert, because back then we were living in splendor! He mouthed the name of God everywhere, but not the religion he is advocating we return to. I was hoping for at least one example.

Adeniba actually embellished who we were and the way things were back then. There is no really need to embellish; it is our history, and I am proud of it. But I'll be damned if I should have to lie about who we are to impress some unknown others! He has a lot of untruth in his article that I can't even begin to refute them all. But the only reason people would embellish their history might be because they feel inferior, inadequate, incomplete or they lack self-esteem. The way he described us in his article made me wonder, if we were that sophisticated politically (even though the only system of government then was monarchy!) and highly advanced (even though were mainly farmers, hunters, potters and folk singers, and we lived in houses of mud or leaves, some of which we still have in our compound in Abeokuta), why was it so easy for the British and the Arabs to convert us? I understand the Arabs used force, but did the British? Well, let me give you my own take and you decide!

From the remnants and the residuals of our history (I am from the junction of Ago-Oko, Ijeun and Oke-Itoku in Abeokuta!), we live in compounds with our extended families. In most families, as in mine, you will find many worshippers of various gods: Sango, Oya, Obatala, Ogun, Esu, Buruku, and some even worship stones, trees, rivers, intersections. The worshippers all have about the same reason for their choice of god to worship.


 
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The reason for some our Nigerian religions, as I was told, was that some of these gods, like Ogun, Oya, Sango, Obatala and some others, were super humans and great warriors in their life time. We also believe in the Olodumare or Olorun, God the Father to you, the maker of heaven and earth and everything in between. But this Olorun or Olodumare is too powerful to approach/petition directly, so we thought that since these super humans must have been endowed for a reason by Olodumare (some folks have some other stories about this!) they could intercede on our behalf to Olodumare to answer our prayers. Hence the gods of the Yorubas! And Adeniba's so-called instant justice was nothing more than a mob rule! What would you call it when the alleged accused was summarily dealt with without the benefit of the doubt we now know today! And it is not true that all crimes were punished, then or now. People are always willing to intercede on behalf of others, or make it an all-in-the-family affair, and punishments are waived or lessened!

I shall not dwell too much on our history, but let me quickly point out that Adeniba's doctrinal example is that of the Jehovah's Witnesses, and it does not represent the views of Christianity. Christianity is not a religion but a relationship to God the Father through faith in Christ; it is that simple. One does nothing to earn such relationship nor does one have to change one's ways after the so-called salvation. But in order to enjoy God's blessings for one's life in time, one necessarily needs to undergo post-salvation epistemological rehabilitation. Which is another way of saying that, one needs to study/learn the Bible under the teaching ministry of Pastor/Teacher and the filling of Holy Spirit. That is, after salvation, we should begin to execute the Father's protocol plan for our lives, living the Christian way of life!

Even this road to salvation is different in the Christian world, depending on which religion (like Catholicism, Anglicanism, Seventh-Day Adventism, Presbyterianism, Seraphim-Cherubim Movement and so on) you ask. But a simple belief in Christ, a simple faith-response to his salvation call, simply accepting His election is my road and that is what I believe: my salvation comes from simply sending a positive signal to the salvation invitation of Christ. Al I need to do is to respond, "I believe!" and at that moment, I become a partaker of eternal live!

Now, I am sure Adeniba would like to know why in the world would I throw away my ancestors' religions (he did not even name one!) and accept a foreign one. Well, let me illustrate my decision this way.

My ancestors believed they could not approach Olodumare, God the Father directly with their petitions because He is too powerful. So, they asked (make supplications to) these super human beings, Ogun, Sango, Oya, Obatala and so on, to intercede on their behalf. But I was given another option in Christianity. They said that I could actually approach Olodumare, God the Father, directly with my petitions simply by invoking the name of Jesus, the Christ.

Now you tell me, suppose you had to see the head honcho of a major corporation, but you fear he is so inaccessible that your only option was to go through someone else whom you believe have some contact with him. Now suppose someone told you that the head honcho is actually very accessible, that no one would stop you from seeing Him, that you only need to mention one name when you open the door. Which option would you choose: go through someone else or go yourself?

It is true the Jehovah's Witnesses, founded by Charles Taze Russel, believed that God, Jehovah, already has those whom he wished to save and they numbered 144,000, representing the twelve tribes of Israel (12,000 each). That was how Adeniba came about his doctrine of "pre-judgment," a misinterpretation of Revelation Chapter 7. Read more about JW and other religious cults in "The Kingdom of the Cults" by Walter Martin.

Even the JW do not believe that crimes go unpunished here on earth. I do not believe any religion does! So, I am not sure from where Adeniba got his doctrine of "delayed justice." He may be confusing the doctrine of eternal lake of fire at the Supreme Court of Heaven with this "delayed justice." But that does not mean that crimes in time go unpunished. One only needs to check the prisons all over the world!

I have heard and debated with people about the incidence with the drunken Noah and his sons, and how Noah cursed Ham, his son (actually Ham's descendants were cursed!), through whom, they say, all black people were begotten (I have a Bible commentary that said different!). Read the story in Genesis 9 from verse 20. I do not believe blacks were cursed, even though we behave as such some times, and Adeniba is surely exhibiting it!

Should Adeniba question/challenge any new, foreign or local, ideas introduced into our culture? Absolutely, and so should all of us! We should not surrender our faculty of independent judgment. But such challenge and the eventual conclusion should not be biased. That is, we should neither accept not reject a new idea simply because it is foreign, neither should we simply accept it because it is ours! We should judge everything rationally, and if the new idea is adjudged to be inimical to our existence or does not conduce to our advancement or progress, then by all means, we should reject it.

So, how have these foreign religions hurt our culture? Again, please recall that Christianity is not a religion; it is a relationship with God the Father through faith in Jesus, the Christ. Now, if some overzealous believers misunderstood or misapplied the doctrines of Christianity, whom should we blame: Christianity or the misguided believer? Just observe your street corner at home and also observe the type of cars parked there. I have been told the best and the most expensive car probably belongs to the pastor! Well, don't blame Christianity for that; blame the gullible congregation who donates money so the pastor could enjoy life while they suffer.

This is the how people have blamed everything on capitalism and democracy. But are they to blame or those who failed to adhere to the rational principles upon which these two systems are based?

Adeniba, like many others, perceived our predicament since independence, and erroneously concluded that these foreign religions are culpable. Another writer, Odi Maduneke, in his article, "The importance of ideology," also erroneously concluded, based on our improper working of our political system, that we should dump it and instead embrace Communism. Let me illustrate what I mean by erroneous conclusion based on faulty premise of improper working of a system.

When the Windows operating system first came out with a mouse, it was a nightmare for most users who have to learn how to work the mouse. I have heard of a user who, after turning on her PC, actually was expecting the mouse to move, as you would a live mouse when tapped. When the electronic mouse would not move even after a few taps, she placed a call to the Call Center to report that her mouse was dead! After a few back-and-forth question-and-answer sessions to ascertain exactly what the problem was (no one expected any user to simply tap a electronic mouse, so no one thought to ask what she did!) You can imagine the expression on the face of the technician when he actually witnessed what the user did. Now, who has a problem: the user or the system? We all have many stories similar to this, but you get the idea! And even when the system has a problem, we simply do not just toss it away and grab another one; we should endeavor to fix it.

Yes, our ancestors had a political/social system that worked for their time, but I would not today it sophisticated or highly advanced (by what/whose standard?). And I do believe that whatever they had back then could be improved upon. Since we are their descendants, it is our duty to improve upon what they left to us, not just to perpetuate it simply because we find ourselves incapable of working a new system. Just as I am against the dark-age Sharia system, I am against perpetuating any system from the past that fails the test of time! I doubt if anyone, even Adeniba, would rather revert back to the old ways of our ancestors!

Any new ideas introduced into our culture should be tested for its benefits, regardless of who introduces it. We should not be a dumping ground; neither should we remain stagnant in the silly interest of maintaining our culture. We should wish to advance our culture by discarding those rituals that are no longer necessary and keeping those that are still beneficial.

But if Adeniba, or anyone else, wishes to return to worshipping our ancestral gods, then by all mean, I wish him well, but to ask everyone to follow suit requires more than " but these are our religions, the religions of our ancestors!"
http://nigeriaworld.com/articles/2005/jan/232.html
 

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18
Jehovah's Witnesses serve up LEFTOVERS from other plates.
by Terry in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 6 years ago
If Adventism was contrarian and schismatic; Russell's doctrines were too.. The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is ...

Gregor
WTWizard
LongHairGal
6 years ago
Terry
7
The Lie is the Truth: Watchtower Graverobbers pick William Miller's bones.
by Terry in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 9 years ago
If Adventism was contrarian and schismatic; Russell's doctrines were too.. The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is ...

johnny cip
Terry
Terry
9 years ago
Enlightened1
17
Re: Russell's connection to Masons and Secret Societies.
by Enlightened1 in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Scandals & Coverups
 10 years ago
His immediate break was, not with Adventism, but with the person and policies of NH Barbour.

heathen
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catbert
10 years ago
Country Girl
Jehovah's Witnesses: The Ruination of Nigeria?
by Country Girl in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 11 years ago
... Anglicanism, Seventh-Day Adventism, Presbyterianism, Seraphim-Cherubim Movement and so on) you ask.

MacHislopp
10
1874 v. 1914 date change?a masterpiece of forgery and deception!
by MacHislopp in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 12 years ago
From the picture on the cover, he could see that it was identified with Adventism. The editor, Nelson H.

yesidid
wha happened?
JimmyPage
7 years ago
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