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(Prince) Funeral in Kingdom even if he died due to overdose?
by pleaseresearch 4 days ago 2 Replies latest 4 days ago   watchtower bible
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pleaseresearch
pleaseresearch 4 days ago
I believe they are doing an autopsy on Prince now. Let's hope he didn't die due to drugs, but... if he did, would he still be given a JW funeral?
 
joe134cd
joe134cd 4 days ago



◦If prince has given specific instructions as to his funeral e.g kingdom hall service. It will be interesting to see if they comply with his wishes and give in to public pressure. Also the content of the funeral service being a Wt advertising campaign.
I was just thinking of if another scenario played out where by they refused to comply with princes funeral arrangment but still took his money. The public backlash would be immense and I really don't think Wt is in a position to refuse his money.

◦
 +1 / -0
pleaseresearch
pleaseresearch 4 days ago
Yeah that's very interesting.
 

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Prince could potentially have a JW funeral
by StarTrekAngel 4 days ago 5 Replies latest 4 days ago   watchtower bible
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StarTrekAngel
StarTrekAngel 4 days ago

The question is, are there two credible witnesses to the allegations of overdose? If I understand correctly from the research into child abuse, the medical diagnosis would not count as a witness.
Was he baptized? what year?
 
joe134cd
joe134cd 4 days ago

If prince has given specific instructions as to his funeral e.g kingdom hall service. It will be interesting to see if they comply with his wishes and give in to public pressure. Also the content of the funeral service being a Wt advertising campaign.
I was just thinking of if another scenario played out where by they refused to comply with princes funeral arrangment but still took his money. The public backlash would be immense and I really don't think Wt is in a position to refuse his money.
 
Athanasius
Athanasius 4 days ago

If his will left a large chunk of money to the Watchtower, Prince should get a GB member to give his funeral talk. Which of the magnificent 7 would you choose?
 
whathappened
whathappened 4 days ago
They will take the money, I am sure. Not so sure about the funeral. It could be done privately with no publicity, no press.
 
Richard_I
Richard_I 4 days ago
@Athanasius: Can you image Anthony Morris giving the funeral talk? There would be a huge shitstorm. Prince is 100% the opposite of what Morris considers a JW. I don't think Morris could even handle saying Prince's name for fear of tight pants appearing in his mind.

 
oppostate
oppostate 4 days ago

If his will left a large chunk of money to the Watchtower, Prince should get a GB member to give his funeral talk. Which of the magnificent 7 would you choose?
Of course it would be Hurdy. He's the one representative of minorities in the GB.
But could you imagine rubber face Lett giving the talk?
Or Bro. Deletion/Loesch. Maybe he'd praise Prince's Superbowl half-time show. NOT.
Or TOMO the turd, talking about Prince's tight pants.
Maybe Splane could let us know which music generation I mean genre Prince was in?
Or Jackson with his wife by the side would do a dance to Prince's "I wanna be your lover".
Or lastly, Sanderson, tablet in hand, could manage the new Funeral Talk Outline.
They certainly have varied choices.
 +2 / -0

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WT's expert on blood!
by Joyzabel 4 days ago 17 Replies latest a day ago   watchtower medical
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Joyzabel
Joyzabel 4 days ago


The January 8, 2000 Awake magazine published an article "The Growing Demand for Bloodless Medicine and Surgery". This article has been quoted extensively by JWs as support for their "scientific" justification for refusing blood products.
A quote from that article that is familiar to most JWs and exJWs is this one:
“All those dealing with blood and caring for surgical patients have to consider bloodless surgery.”—Dr. Joachim Boldt, professor of anesthesiology, Ludwigshafen, Germany.
Dr. Boldt has been exposed as a fraud.
From the British Medical Journal:
The withdrawal of almost 90 fraudulent studies by a German anaesthetist is one of the biggest medical research scandals of recent time. Jacqui Wise examines what happened and what lessons have been learnt
Joachim Boldt was a prominent German anaesthetist with an international research reputation. He was regarded as a leading specialist in intravenous fluid management and was an advocate for the use of colloids, particularly hydroxyethyl starch solutions, to boost blood volume during surgery.
However, a lengthy investigation has led to 88 out of the 102 studies that Boldt has published since 1999 being withdrawn from the medical literature. He has been found guilty of research misconduct, including failure to acquire ethical approval and fabrication of study data, and sacked from his position as professor at Klinikum Ludwigshafen, a large teaching hospital in Ludwigshafen, Germany, where he carried out his research. The retraction of such a large body of work has had far reaching effects on clinical practice, research oversight, and editorial policies.
And from The Daily Telegraph:
Millions of surgery patients at risk in drug research fraud scandal
Millions of NHS patients have been treated with controversial drugs on the basis of "fraudulent research" by one of the world's leading anaesthetists, The Daily Telegraph can disclose.
Joachim Boldt is at the centre of a criminal investigation amid allegations that he may have forged up to 90 crucial studies on the treatment. He has been stripped of his professorship and sacked from a German hospital following allegations about his research into drugs known as colloids.
Experts described Mr Boldt's alleged forgeries as possibly the biggest medical research scandal since Andrew Wakefield was struck off last year for falsely claiming to have proved a link between the MMR vaccine and autism.
Guidelines for British anaesthetists regarding colloids – used to boost blood volume in patients undergoing surgery – are being revised after it emerged that four of the key studies on which they were based are to be formally retracted.
Mr Boldt, 57, was regarded as a leading specialist in intravenous fluid management, and his work was published widely in British medical journals.
He claimed to have proved that colloids were as safe as other, similar treatments despite earlier studies showing them to be more dangerous. Mr Boldt's alleged forgeries date back up to a decade.
Retraction Watch, a website that tracks the retraction of scientific papers, places Dr. Boldt as "second on the leader board" for number of scientific studies retracted:
Boldt’s retraction count upped to 94, co-author takes legal action to prevent 95th
...the ombudsperson has indicated the following in his letter to the journal: “In view of the inconsistencies and Dr. Boldt’s misconduct in this and many other aspects of scientific integrity, JLU recommends that journal editors retract all papers where Dr. Boldt is the responsible author even if there is no obvious indication of falsification. All articles by Dr. Boldt should be read with great caution because they may contain falsified data.”
If a person does a search for Dr. Boldt, they will find that some of Dr. Boldt's falsified research involved Jehovah's Witness patients and, his work has been used to bolster the position of "bloodless" surgery.
The Watchtower has yet to retract the damaging statement by Dr. Boldt and the quote is still used by many JWs to justify their no blood stance. Dr. Boldt's quote has no validity in the scientific world whatsoever - he is a fraud.

 +16 / -0
stillin
stillin 4 days ago

What are the publishing dates for the article in the British Medical Journal and the Daily Telegraph?
I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the WTS to make any statements that acknowledge their "authoritative reference" being a fraud.
But, we already knew how they like to "cherry-pick" their references.
Thanks for sharing your catch of the day!
 +3 / -0
Magnum
Magnum 4 days ago
Wow!!! Thanks! JWs are desperate for "worldly" experts to back up their theology, and it seems that a lot of times they end up with "experts" like this guy.
 +2 / -0
steve2
steve2 4 days ago

The bmj article is from March 2013, while the Daily Telegraph festure is from 2011. Click on links for the exact dates.
Of note, although this is far from recent news, jw.org has never bothered to publicise the findings against Boldt and his subsequent professional humiliation.
 +2 / -0
berrygerry
berrygerry 4 days ago

No need for retraction.
There will be a providential reason for this that will be revealed in the unknown future.
Same thing happened with 1914.

Revelation Climax book:

[Footnote]
Providentially, those Bible Students had not realized that there is no zero year between “B.C.” and “A.D.” Later, when research made it necessary to adjust B.C. 606 to 607 B.C.E., the zero year was also eliminated, so that the prediction held good at “A.D. 1914.”

 +1 / -0
smiddy
smiddy 4 days ago

The bottom line though , is , Jehovah`s Witnesses accept fractions of blood that is donated by worldly people under the control of Satan`s system of things.
Blood donated by Satan`s agents , that is processed by Satan`s agents into fractions , and willingly accepted by Jehovah`s Witnesses.?
If that`s not hypocritical , I don`t know what is.
smiddy
 +4 / -0
jwfacts
jwfacts 4 days ago

Joyzabel great find.
 +1 / -0
konceptual99
konceptual99 4 days ago
Great references to use when a Witness accuses science of being fraudulent
 +1 / -0
jookbeard
jookbeard 4 days ago
well spotted
 +1 / -0
Amelia Ashton
Amelia Ashton 4 days ago
If the Watchtower does not inform members of the fraud and someone dies after making a "bible based decision" ( I use the term loosely) backed up using his statements as an authority is that not corporate manslsaughter?
 +1 / -0

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WT's expert on blood!
by Joyzabel 4 days ago 17 Replies latest a day ago   watchtower medical
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eyeuse2badub
eyeuse2badub 4 days ago

The Watchtower is "expert" in everything,------------until they're not!
just saying!
eyeuse2badub
 +1 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot 4 days ago

Apostate-driven lies!!! :angry:
x
Seriously, though, this reminds me of the time the WT published an interview with Michael Behe (an Intelligent Design advocate)...
...and virtually everything the guy said was since debunked and discredited in court, while he was on the witness stand, in full view of the whole world during the Dover ID trial. :smirk:


 +1 / -0
BluesBrother
BluesBrother 3 days ago

That same Awake - August 1st 2000 has a second quote from him:
"Bloodless surgery is not only for Jehovah’s Witnesses but for all patients. I think that every doctor should be engaged in it.’—Dr. Joachim Boldt, professor of anesthesiology, Ludwigshafen, Germany."
They also published his picture , which I cannot acces without a paper copy
Thanks Joyzabel...
 +2 / -0
freddo
freddo 2 days ago

@Blues brother I think you mean 8th of January Awake 2000 - Damn Americans with their back to front Month and Day calendars!
Was that the one where on the front a guy is in surgeons garb and has a grey-stubble beard?
 
nonjwspouse
nonjwspouse 2 days ago

Love it that he held the record for most scientific redaction for quite some time, and still more keep coming.
His name, and ( now found to be unethical and misleading) paper reference is in the HLC material used to provide to Drs for "appeal to authority".
Birdie, I know you have been on top of this.
The German connection keeps getting more clear.

 
Watchtower-Free
Watchtower-Free a day ago
BTTT
 
wifibandit
wifibandit a day ago
German doctor quoted in Awake magazine exposed as a fraud
 +1 / -0
undercover
undercover a day ago

Marking, so i can find this later
Thanks for the thread
 

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Topic Summary
the january 8, 2000 awake magazine published an article "the growing demand for bloodless medicine and surgery".
this article has been quoted extensively by jws as support for their "scientific" justification for refusing blood products.. a quote from that article that is familiar to most jws and exjws is this one:.
“all those dealing with blood and caring for surgical patients have to consider bloodless surgery.”—dr.



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/ How About We Call It "The Trance" Instead of "The Truth"
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How About We Call It "The Trance" Instead of "The Truth"
by xjwsrock 4 days ago 5 Replies latest 4 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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xjwsrock
xjwsrock 4 days ago

Let's see if it works as a replacement in common phrases:
"How long have you been in The Trance?"
"When did you come into The Trance?"
"I hope I don't fall out of The Trance"
"She was a good sister, she always loved The Trance"
 +3 / -0
Heaven
Heaven 4 days ago

It works.

 
eyeuse2badub
eyeuse2badub 4 days ago

That works!
It could also properly be called " The Guess" or "The Opinion".
just saying!
eyeuse2badub
 
FayeDunaway
FayeDunaway 4 days ago
I once thought The Lies worked well, but The Trance is better...flows more easily off the tongue and shares consonants with the original. Plus that is the effect of brainwashing, they are hypnotized by this thing we have woken up from. Good suggestion and I'll try to remember to use it.
 
tiki
tiki 4 days ago
I like it !!! I just call it "the religion". but trance is so much more descriptive. I still cannot believe that one nutty guy from Poland back in 1910 came over and got mixed up in the trance and one whole bunch of descedants were so negatively affected by it. Trance breeds dysfunctionality.
 +1 / -0
tiki
tiki 4 days ago
How happifying...we all woke up from the trance!!!! Congrats to the escapees!!
 +1 / -0

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the Guardians of Doctrine - What was your view of GB 1.0?
by berrygerry 4 days ago 13 Replies latest 2 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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berrygerry
berrygerry 4 days ago

When I was an all-in, younger, somewhat uber-Dub - I envisioned the Governing Body as spending 16 to 18 hours a day at the Bethel library, with their noses in the Bible and associated research books. Sky-J was propelling his Holy Spirit directly at them, maybe opening the book to the right page or paragraph, and ZAP, new light.
When I learned that these dudes only met on Wednesday mornings, for as little as 10 minutes, and spent the rest of their time MANAGING and traveling, it was quite a letdown.
Anyone have such thoughts of our Guardians Of Doctrine?

 +1 / -0
Landy
Landy 4 days ago

When I was a teenager the GB were almost god like, etheral and held in awe.
Now they have Stephen Lett on the internet.
 +6 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot 4 days ago

@ Landy...
 
I don't think I could have summed it up better. LMAO!
x
I think Lett would be perfect to host a JW kids' show...
...you wouldn't even have to tell him that's what it was. :laughing:
 +4 / -0
millie210
millie210 4 days ago

They were much better off when they were "unknowns". Then a persons imagination and faith could imbue these men with whatever godlike qualities a person wanted to imagine they had.
It is a common tactic for political people to try to portray themselves as "down home. just like the average person" traits.
This seemed to work well when tried with religious leaders such as the Pope, so the Governing Body was advised (?) to try it.
It has backfired.
I am not sure of all the reasons why but it has and now they cant really back away from it can they?
 
scary21
scary21 3 days ago

I believe the old GB had jobs and worked at least some of the time. The new GB doesn't have jobs. I could be wrong but seems like COC talked about them working.
So I think of them as being lazier now.

 
Lieu
Lieu 3 days ago

I use to be amazed at the level of GB 'worship' in my younger years. People equated the GB with Jehovah himself.
I had a one on one with Henschel (late 80's), chatted a good bit. He didn't seem any different than anyone else or any more scripturally knowledgeable.

 +1 / -0
xjwsrock
xjwsrock 3 days ago

I pictured very studious, deep-thinking, wise men that were on a different wave length. Basically how you might picture Jesus or Aristotle.
So in other words I was dreaming.
The broadcast has exposed them for what they are. A person couldn't have my early fictional view of them today if they wanted to.

 +1 / -0
MrsR-Awaken
MrsR-Awaken 3 days ago

I just realized Guardians Of Doctrine = GOD
These dudes think they are God.... (puke)



 +2 / -0
purrpurr
purrpurr 3 days ago

When I was a child I thought that the GB went into a room on their own and that Jehovah would speak to them directly, drama style, a big booming voice telling them what to put in the mags.
It was a great disappointment to learn that they just decided that's all, and even just voted on doctrine.
 
Darkknight757
Darkknight757 3 days ago

Splane confusing "generation" with "contemporaries" in the overlapping generation teaching really did it for me.
These guys are just making it up as they go. Rubber face doing the last part in Elders school was a real let down too. He sure knows how to make people feel stupider doesn't he?
 

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the Guardians of Doctrine - What was your view of GB 1.0?
by berrygerry 4 days ago 13 Replies latest 2 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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Phizzy
Phizzy 2 days ago

My JW father was disgusted at any elevation of a man or men by JW's. He only recognised Big J and the Bible as authorities, and often showed where the GB were going wrong. He was though a loyal believer in the concept that the JW Org was used by god.
So I grew up with a sceptical attitude about them, which was reinforced when a long time worker at Brooklyn H.Q told us that as he passed the GB's door on a Wednesday morning, as he did his cleaning job, he often heard voices raised in anger ! No Holy Spirit there then !
 
Vidiot
Vidiot 2 days ago


scary21 - "...The new GB doesn't have jobs...."
Nope.
They have "roles".
 
flipper
flipper 2 days ago
I always thought most of them were arrogant , pompous assholes. " Legends in their own mind ". And then when the likes of Ted Jaracz came along- in time I came to believe these WT GB men should be brought up on criminal charges of " crimes against humanity ". In other words- I was never impressed. Peace out, Mr. Flipper
 
Vidiot
Vidiot 2 days ago


Darkknight757 - "...He sure knows how to make people feel stupider, doesn't he?"
You got that (sort of) backwards.
He makes everyone else look smart.
 

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Topic Summary
when i was an all-in, younger, somewhat uber-dub - i envisioned the governing body as spending 16 to 18 hours a day at the bethel library, with their noses in the bible and associated research books.
sky-j was propelling his holy spirit directly at them, maybe opening the book to the right page or paragraph, and zap, new light.. when i learned that these dudes only met on wednesday mornings, for as little as 10 minutes, and spent the rest of their time managing and traveling, it was quite a letdown.. anyone have such thoughts of our guardians of doctrine?.



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I am confused,bewildered
by bobld 4 days ago 16 Replies latest a day ago   watchtower beliefs
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bobld
bobld 4 days ago

On their social media site:Why do we attend large assemblies? Like
God's sevants in the past,who were instructed to assemble three times a year, we
look forward to meeting together in large groups.Soon they will be out in full force
inviting the public to their R.C.
Yet,the watchtower no.2-2016 page 9 says,"The hour came when Jesus,by his sacrificial
death,ended the Jewish system of worship based on the Law of Moses."
So which is it.

 +2 / -0
steve2
steve2 4 days ago

The key strategy of fundamentalists regardless of belief system is simple and unforgettable:
Pick and choose. All else is inconvenient detail.
 +6 / -0
Coded Logic
Coded Logic 4 days ago

JW theology is truly religion ala carte. Check out the latest NWT



 +9 / -0
smiddy
smiddy 4 days ago

JW. logic , We are not under the law covenant , however the principles still apply as we see fit.
In other words the G.B. can cherry pick any scripture they like apply whatever principle the like , and dictate to the rank and file it`s new light from Jehovah .
smiddy
 +3 / -0
Witness My Fury
Witness My Fury 4 days ago
If it makes us money while giving the sheeples a goodly indoctrination session of Fear Obligation and Guilt then who's going to say no to that? We'll find a scriptural precedent for whatever the hell we like, we are the Guardians Of Doctrine.
 +3 / -0
freddo
freddo 4 days ago
They have two corners to their mouths and they use both sides as they wish.
 +1 / -0
Heaven
Heaven 4 days ago

the watchtower no.2-2016 page 9 says,"The hour came when Jesus,by his sacrificial
death,ended the Jewish system of worship based on the Law of Moses."
And yet, the Jewish faith continues. Once again, JWs (as do other Christians) demonstrate they don't like the Jews.

 +1 / -0
Vidiot
Vidiot 4 days ago
All Christina fundy churches loooooove them some Old Testament.
 +4 / -0
LostGeneration
LostGeneration 3 days ago

Yep. Pick and choose.
Gather together three times a year like Israel - Yes
Ban on pork? No. Menstruating women are unclean for 7 days? No.
 +1 / -0
Diogenesister
Diogenesister 3 days ago

 No. Menstruating women are unclean for 7 days? No.
Wouldnt be too sure about THAT! Women are just unclean 365 days a year.....of course, the one thing an unclean women could do is the one thing JW women are allowed to do....,clean the shi**ers at the Kingdom Hall!
 +2 / -0

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I am confused,bewildered
by bobld 4 days ago 16 Replies latest a day ago   watchtower beliefs
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ToesUp
ToesUp 3 days ago
Do us unclean women have to wear a head covering when we clean the shi**ers at the KH? lol
 +3 / -0
Heaven
Heaven 3 days ago

If menstruating women are unclean for 7 days why aren't men who have wet dreams also unclean for 7 days?

 +5 / -0
steve2
steve2 3 days ago

The Bible is proudly pro-male and majorly patriarchal in its focus with a notable seam of misogyny running through its ancient pages.
Funny then that, in most, if not all, Christian religious groups, female adherents vastly outnumber males.
What's that about?
 +1 / -0
Lieu
Lieu 3 days ago

Who "looks forward" to conventions?????
Aside from the old full dress Bible dramas, conventions are pure leg numbing boredom.
Jewish festivals are actually festivals and loads of fun. Activities for all. No comparison.
As for obeying Mosaic Law. Pfffft! Seriously. Who has the cattle for all that?
 
Lieu
Lieu 3 days ago

Menstruating ancient ladies were probably quite happy about that rule. 7 days each month of no duties! Making meals was laborious back then, tending house and children. 7 day break. No chocolate on that side of the world yet.
That whole rape law. Seriously, if you knew you'd have to automatically marry the person you raped, would you rape? Not to forget if you rape someone else, you've just committed adultery and that penalty is death by big rocks.
It's best not to rape.
Also, too, I don't think the Bible is anti female, I think misogynistic power crazed men use the Bible to be anti female. Jesus was always talking to the ladies.
 
Vidiot
Vidiot 2 days ago

@ Lieu...
I'll admit, I never looked at it that way.
x
Not that it's changed my mind, overall.
 
DesirousOfChange
DesirousOfChange a day ago

Conventions and Assemblies are big money makers for WTS.
That is why they still have them.
Doc

 

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Topic Summary
on their social media site:why do we attend large assemblies?
god's sevants in the past,who were instructed to assemble three times a year, we.
look forward to meeting together in large groups.soon they will be out in full force.



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Top Five Misconceptions about Evolution
by cofty 3 days ago 5 Replies latest 3 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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cofty
cofty 3 days ago
Very handy little article that might clear up some muddle...
 +8 / -0
Slidin Fast
Slidin Fast 3 days ago
Particularly like the theory v law explanation.
 +1 / -0
Anders Andersen
Anders Andersen 3 days ago

I understand and accept all the facts that prove the evolution worthy of being called a scientific theory.
But I find the infogram somewhat confusing. If I weren't on board yet, it wouldn't help me at all I think.
Sorry :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:
 +1 / -0
cofty
cofty 3 days ago

Here are the five topics covered in the link..
1 - The meaning of the word "theory" in a scientific context.
2 - What does "fitness" mean in the phrase "survival of the fittest"?
3 - Common ancestry and why we don't descend from chimps.
4 - How we know evolution can be "proven" to be true.
5 - Was Darwin wrong? Spoiler alert - No
 
LoveUniHateExams
LoveUniHateExams 3 days ago

Good article in the OP.
I'd like to add a further point: some theists won't accept evolution because they wrongly think that because humans share a common ancestor with apes and are thus descended from animals, that we must act like wild animals - fighting, sleeping around, etc. - and dispense with civilised codes of conduct.
This isn't what evolution is about. Evolution is descriptive, not proscriptive.
Scientists have high ethical standards: e.g. before any scientific experiment is allowed to be carried out it must first pass an ethics committee assessment. Risk assessments must also be carried out.
 +2 / -0
Je.suis.oisif
Je.suis.oisif 3 days ago
Thanks Cofty. I'm reading lots to increase knowlege and I even understand the infogrammes. Appreciate the part where Darwin was of his age. Like Newton & Einstein. New discoveries have left these scientists behind, especially in the fields of the quantum sciences. But, it doesnt in any way, shape or form diminish their major contributions.
 +1 / -0

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When you were really "in", did you have a pet idea that would steer wt into divine favor?
by prologos 3 days ago 9 Replies latest 2 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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prologos
prologos 3 days ago

WT writers ( Klein) admitted at one time, that His Majesty's doctrinal Ship was zigzagging to find the right course, and many of us believed, that if we accepted the Bible as true, cleaning up the teachings would establish the right bearing. so: Did you have a hobby-horse idea you were riding? Writing to Brooklyn perhaps? button holing whoever would listen? here was mine:
We were all Spiritual Israelites, not just the partakers. key text: Rev.7. the sealed come out of the 12 tribes, so the members of these tribes must be greater and more numerous than the 144 000 spread over ~ 2000 years.
As Shakespeare, presently in vogue, might say : "much ado about nothing", yet it is interesting to dwell into these follies.
 
Village Idiot
Village Idiot 3 days ago

My "pet" idea was an explanation, through metaphor, of Christ's relationship to God and the Holy Spirit. It was based on the JW, non-Trinitarian concept of Representative Christology. Ready?
God was like a sun and the Holy Spirit (impersonal) was like the sunlight. Christ, the son of God (created as firstborn), was like a prism through which the light shone turning it into a rainbow. All the angels and perfect humans were like diamonds reflecting the light from the prism (Holy Spirit) their sparkling being the act of worship.
Fallen men were like dirty lumps of coal from which diamonds could be made when held under enormous pressure.
This belief in mind was in contrast to the JW metaphor in which an individual JW was like a piece of charcoal in a coal heap - all the JWs - which would die out unless it remained close to the others. Of course, this was an analogy which ignored the act of individual salvation in favor of group salvation which the Watchtower holds so dear.
I never wrote to Brooklyn, they would have just sent the letter to the local congregation. I did mention it to one of the elders who was later part of my judicial committee (For a reason that was unrelated to my disfellowshipping). The elder had used the charcoal analogy implying that I was getting too far away from the heap which represented the organization. I responded to that with my analogy which showed that being in proximity to others was not a prerequisite to salvation.
It's so good to be clear headed now. I don't waste my imagination counting angels on the heads of pins.
 +2 / -0
prologos
prologos 3 days ago

That is a very interesting analogy. I have to sleep on that. Wt would not be interested. how would money flow out of that pot at the end of your refracted rainbow? Their internal glow can not grow.
 +1 / -0
Ucantnome
Ucantnome 3 days ago
No
 
jookbeard
jookbeard 3 days ago
the old fables and urban legends that there are hidden manuscripts in the Vatican that prove the WTS is being used by God, and that the Devil is so convinced that jw's are truly gods chosen people that he would do anything to get us to leave the faith etc, I believed it for a little whole, sad was'nt I!
 +1 / -0
Anders Andersen
Anders Andersen 3 days ago

At two separete occasions single (divorced) sisters (one older, one younger) engaged me in a conversation about how they feared to end up all alone in Paradise.
Both were told by some nutcase JWs that 'in paradise nobody gets married anymore. So if you're single at Armageddon, you're single forever.' Thanks for making them feel better, @55hole!
Anyway, I told both of them that WT reasoning on this topic didn't make sense, and Jesus clearly referred to those with a heavenly calling only when he said they wouldn't get married but 'be like angels'.
Not long after we got some 'new light' saying we shouldn't be dogmatic on this point. Probably GB were getting tired of all the single sister writing letters to inquire about their paradise prospects to get lai....eh married.
Another topic was: will we see children that never made it because of a miscarriage in ressurection? WT said no, I said yes, no reason to think otherwise. WT also changed their position on that.
But so did I. That's the one thing I don't like about having discovered that the whole God/Bible thing doesn't make sense: I won't live forever with my wife and daughter. I will never get to see and hold my first child who unfotunately was never born. I won't see my father again.
But then again: if something "appears too good to betrue, it usually is. Don’t be quick to believe advertising claims and testimonials, thinking, “This is different.”"
 
prologos
prologos 3 days ago

AA:  "-- he said they wouldn't get married but 'be like angels'. I always covered the two possible outcomes by referring to male nipples, possibly under the angels garments or the 6 wings, those breast ornaments never seem to raise our desire to nurse children in men right?, and ladies desires are hormone driven, so, as "children of the resurrection", without those chemicals urging you on, why would you have the maddening intense desire to procreate?
"--will we see children that never made it because of a miscarriage? Sorry for you about that experience, good though, because miscarriages might be nature's way of stopping an unviable fetus to go on. I had the unfortunate experience to actually see the expelled embryo, because it was happening in an emergency hospital. No point of a resurrection there, except a re-implant into the healed womb, so, You must be talking of a very late term interruption, perhaps when a name was already picked, which we experienced too.
Just discussing the text, without endorsing the extended talking snake tale.
 
elbib
elbib 3 days ago

My pet idea was an analogy some WT writer used in one Awake! article which made my faith in God extremely firm: A blind man cannot design a camera, and matter is purely material which has no sense of vision.
Then I wrote to the Writing Committee informing them how much I liked the analogy. In return they wrote something very profound: "A blind man who is in the operation theatre for an eye-surgery does well in not arguing with the medical staff that 'first you prove me light exists, then only you perform the surgery.' Blind man has nothing to lose--if at all he loses something it will be darkness.
 +2 / -0
Anders Andersen
Anders Andersen 3 days ago

With regards for my lost child: I know about the mechanics. I now also know that up to 50% of all fertilized eggs are miscarried, most of them without the woman even knowing they were (about to be) pregnant. 'Fortunately' for us our miscarriage was very early in the pregnancy, however as it was our first we were very happy and in anticipation of the joy ahead. Regardless we would welcome a 're-implant' or ressurection or whatever. Again: as many opinions as people believing that 'extended talking snake tale' (lol @ that)
@elbib,
What they said about the blind man refusing operation can be understood as:

We (the JW leaders) are medical staff and know best. Your are (spiritually) blind. Obey us. Trust us. Don't ask questions. You have nothing to lose, because if we're wrong everyone is wrong, and you're blind anyway.
It's a false dichotomy, and I think it's more haughty and condescending than profound ;-)

 +1 / -0
prologos
prologos 2 days ago
Anders Andersen: "believing that 'extended talking snake tale' (lol @ that). My pet project as in the OP was to base my observation, course corrections on the belief in the bible, it being the inspired, the inerrant Word of God. well, with the creator emerging imhop as the great scientist that he/ she is, only a handful of bible references are accurate. It is truly a Spin-on of the talking snake store. without that fable, there is no original sin, no need for the ransom, paying of ransom, slaving for the Guardians Of the talking snake Doctrine. I get great satisfaction of thinking, listening to a pompous pontification from the platform, " this person really believes in talking snakes!, asses (donkeys) RNWT!"
 

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Faith, where now?
by Theburstbubble 3 days ago 32 Replies latest 2 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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Theburstbubble
Theburstbubble 3 days ago

So for the first time ever I went to a church service at my local church (COE) and I have to say it was awful! It was just like a ritual. The vicar would say something and then the congregation would all say a phrase in unison back to him. In between were prayers, hymns etc. This went on for an hour. It was totally unfeeling and I'm not sure how people even learn about the bible at such places.
So anyway, as much as I don't want to go back to being a witness I do have to say they genuinely discuss the scriptures far more than churches.
I know the majority of you on here are atheists but I still want to believe in something. I was hoping visiting a church once a month would give me that fix but it really didn't.
For those with a faith, any suggestions on a nice church to upbuilding my faith without all of the silly 'add ons' that the witnesses have?
If you are atheist please don't comment saying it's all a load of rubbish etc, I can believe in whatever I want to, as can you, so no negativity please.
 +5 / -0
cofty
cofty 3 days ago

I can believe in whatever I want to,
Yes you can. But choosing your beliefs is silly. Investigate the evidence and your beliefs will take care of themselves.
Why not find a harmless friendly church for the sense of community and at the same time investigate the evidence regarding the bible for the sake of intellectual honesty?
 +10 / -0
Bonsai
Bonsai 3 days ago

There is only one positive role that I can think of that going to church would have, helping you to draw closer to the community and improve one's social life. If I had to go, and if I had to force myself to pretend to believe in a mystical, invisible being, then I would go to a local church where I could build up some friendships locally. Having good friends there might make all the weird rituals and brain numbing sermons bearable.
I just want to say also that I respect your desire to believe in something. That is a wonderful right that we have- to continue to search and strive for truth - whatever it may be. But the truth may not always line up with what we want to believe. I wish you a happy journey in your quest for knowledge and truth!
Hope I wasn't negative. I tried my darndest not to be.

 +4 / -0
Theburstbubble
Theburstbubble 3 days ago

The thing is Cofty, I think there is no answer to everything. I know you are totally into evolution and I get that. I believe there is a connection between everything and we do evolve (that is clear). However, as I mentioned in one of your posts I still cannot quite comprehend that everything we know came from one cell. I have so many questions about evolution that I just don't think can be answered. But on the flip side I do think that there are is also not much evidence that God exists.
But, I like the concept of God. I like the values of the bible. Yes, I understand it could all be a huge fairytale but so what if it is? You and I will die, we will both live our lives to the full, the only difference is that you will believe there is nothing and I will hope there is something more. If there isn't then we will both be in the ground none the wiser :smile:
 +9 / -0
Theburstbubble
Theburstbubble 3 days ago

Ah Bonsai, thank you for your comment. Not negative at all. I don't know why I have such a spiritual need. Maybe it's 38 years of conditioning or maybe it's just how I am. Who knows! But I think you are right in the whole sense of community thing. I do miss that. I am building relationships slowly but it does take time!
 +3 / -0
FayeDunaway
FayeDunaway 3 days ago
TBB you didn't go to a church that was right for you, so keep looking. I will send you a PM about my experience, but different churches appeal to different people, and vary widely in their coverage of Scripture vs. Traditions. Sounds like you tried a Catholic one? Or Episcopalian since you mentioned vicar. I've been to an Episcopalian service that was not overly ritualistic, just right. But maybe you are in the UK and it was Anglican?
 +1 / -0
Crazyguy
Crazyguy 3 days ago
I went to a non denominational church and it was great. A friend of mind suggested it after he went and visited several other churches even non denominational ones. You can't just give up and go back to the witnesses because one church service was all wrong. I can try to find out what kind of church style my friend goes to if you want there national . PM me if you like and I'll ask him.
 +3 / -0
Theburstbubble
Theburstbubble 3 days ago

Hi Fayedunaway
Yes I'm in the UK and it was a Church of England service, I was hoping for something light and interesting and to be honest it was a real culture shock.
Don't worry Crazyguy I'm not running back to the witnesses.
If you can both PM me with your suggestions and experiences that would be great.
Many thanks
 +1 / -0
cofty
cofty 3 days ago

I have so many questions about evolution that I just don't think can be answered
I am certain that they can.
If you are genuine about that why not ask?
I like the values of the bible.
What about the slavery and infanticide?
 +1 / -1
Lieu
Lieu 3 days ago
Faith is internal, a personal belief inside of you ... it isn't a "where", imo. Ya just gotta check around a bit if you are looking to be a part of a community with shared beliefs. Or you could do as Russell Rutherford, etc and have open Bible discussion with a small group of people.
 

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Faith, where now?
by Theburstbubble 3 days ago 32 Replies latest 2 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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David_Jay
David_Jay 3 days ago

Thereis a significant difference between "faith" as taught by Jehovah's Witnesses and what non-JW Christians generally experience. Knowing the difference may help you make a decision, one that may help you find a religion that adds to your life, or like Cofty states, discover that a non-religious path fits you better.
Jehovah's Witnesses see faith as a response that believers are totally responsible for. For them it is based on a scholastic approach: studying the Bible and linking texts to come to conclusions that demonstrate a particular logic, one generally supporting Wachtower concepts. The study produces conclusions that are called "evidence" upon which to create or support beliefs. Mental acknowledgment and heartfelt devotion to these conclusions is what is called "faith" among the Witnesses. Any doubtful thoughts must be readily dismissed and are often seen as a sign that one is not a "true believer."
In mainstream Christian theology "faith" is a supernatural virtue. While like the Witnesses it consists of a personal response that includes assent of the mind and the will, according to religious people it has a divine dimension that without makes it totally impossible. Unlike JW doctrines which require belief based on the study and research and complete action of the devotee, the other type allegedly results in belief through an action of God which the devotee does not personally generate.
Scripture and Christian doctrine refers to religious faith as a product or "fruit" of contact with the Holy Spirit. (Galatians 5.22) Unlike Watchtower "faith" which is supposed to be the result of study and contact with the Governing Body, this other "faith" comes from some sort of contact with God. The contact allegedly results in revelation that allows persons to arrive at conclusions or assent to religious "truths" that could not fully believed in by pure human effort. (Compare Galatians 1.11-12 with Matthew 16.15-17) Whereas Witnesses often claim that they believe in their unique doctrines through their own efforts of study, beliefs backed by "evidence" and reason, the other type is said to be a stand-in or personal resolve when there is no evidence or reason to work with, even when there is nothing but reason for doubt.--Hebrews chapter 11.
So for those looking for a church or religion along Christian lines, one's choice is generally made depending on which path may aid in bringing about this response. For them it is about coming into contact with something that is transcendent, generally defies reason, and causes a person to respond with "leaps of faith," courageous steps which generally would not be done by the same individual alone.
This in no way means that a non-theist way is any less courageous. Not all persons take a path that adds to the community of humanity by a religious practice. If you find that nothing speaks to you in the religious world and that you are more taken to adopt convictions based on more humanistic effort, a fulfilling life can also be found according to the testimony of many atheists.
Again, if religion seems to be the path that calls to you, unlearn the Witness way of doing things. Religion is supposed to be the embracing of something greater, that transcends, that recognizes that we can't know everything or expect to be totally right about everything. Belief in this send becomes the result of some spiritual contact, not the manner in which one makes themselves religious.
If you wish to be part of a religion, be sure it is a way that helps you be free to be yourself, not something that takes that freedom away from you or makes you think you can judge others for taking paths exercising similar freedom but holding different convictions.
 +9 / -0
elbib
elbib 3 days ago

Dear Theburstbubble,
You are on the right track—You remember God (make this as your hobby).
In addition, try to be always in the NOW which means you are in heaven (going out of the NOW means you are in hell). This will ensure prosperity—both material and spiritual
 
David_Jay
David_Jay 3 days ago

And I almost forgot...
Ritual can be a means to this transcendent contact that leads to belief and faith. Ritual played an important part in the Jewish worship at the Tabernacle and later the Temple. The first Christian services were based on a type of ritual called "liturgy," portions of which are found in the New Testament. All modern liturgies are based both on the Jewish tabernacle/Temple service and the oldest written liturgy or Mass composed by the first bishop of Jerusalem, St. James the Greater. The JW meetings are just classes in Watchtower theology, dry and devoid of spiritual experience as they are of ritual. One has to receive catechesis in the ritual of these services to see their ancient connections and meanings, and why they have been preserved for generations.
 +1 / -0
tornapart
tornapart 3 days ago
I don't find God in a building.. Jesus told the Samaritan woman that there didn't have to be a 'place' to worship God, people would worship in spirit and truth. He railed against the organised religion of his day and told the people that there were only 2 commandments to keep, to love God and love their neighbour (and the good Samaritan parable showed it was everyone). Go outside and enjoy the nature there, take your bible, read some of Jesus words and pray. You will soon find that he isn't in a church or a KH... he's right there with you.
 +5 / -0
no-zombie
no-zombie 3 days ago
While I still attend the meetings for my wife's sake, inwardly I know that the Organization is no more right than any other. And so (for me at least) going to another church, even if it was once a month, would truthfully be no different. One of the things that stuck in my mind from the writings of Bro. Franz was the correcting of something that Witness are often told. Its often said "Where shall will we go to" but in reality the Bible said not where but to whom. That being that case, its our belief in Jesus and our continued belief in him that is important. And I believe that we have more chance of building that up by doing a personal act of kindness to a stranger (as Jesus would have done), taking a small amount of time to just read and think about the ordinary lives of first century Christians for ourselves, or to even sitting in the garden stuyding the simple beauty of single flower ... than listening to the machine produced Watchtower Study articles in the meeting. I know that this may not answer you question exactly Theburstbubble, but the thing that all of us have to understand once coming to know the real Truth, is that there is a big difference in being Spiritual as compared to being Religious. And that I think is the real crux of the matter.

 +2 / -0
FayeDunaway
FayeDunaway 3 days ago

One can be both spiritual and religious if that is ones personality.
Worshipping in community feels really good to me. I absolutely love it. I know it's not for everyone. But if someone desires to do so, why suggest otherwise? As long as high control churches are avoided and you realize no church is filled with perfect people, it's lovely. I had no one but a few exwitness friends before I joined a new church. They are my family now.
 +1 / -0
David_Jay
David_Jay 3 days ago

Correction on my last post: In describing the earliest of liturgies, my post should read that it is ascribed to St. James the Just.
As to how people in churches with ritual learn Scripture, did you know that the Watchtower never told you that we would not have Scripture if it were not for these ritual liturgies?
The canon of Scripture, both Jewish and Christian, were determined by their use in liturgy. (For those of you who were kept in the dark about religion history while in the Watchtower, "liturgy" is a formal worship service; it is like a script to follow, stating what prayers get said, what psalms get sung, what Scripture texts get said, and on what day of the year this happens.) The Jewish Tabernacle/Temple liturgy consisted of prayers which became the psalms. Some of these were chanted or sung between a leading priest and the worshiping audience, often in responsorial antiphons where the audience repeated a chorus in reply to the worship leader, such as found in Psalm 136.
The Temple service became adjusted for smaller synagogue service. This liturgy used an annual cycle of readings from the Torah and the other books of what would become the Jewish Scriptures, read on a schedule that marked the annual festivals prescribed by the Law.
The earliest Christian liturgies, like the above mentioned, adapted the synagogue service. But they introduced two new facets: Justin Martyr, writing in the 150s CE, stated that "on the day called after the sun there takes place a meeting....The memoirs of the apostles are read, as are the writings of the prophets...When the reader has finished, the president, in his speech, admonishes and urges all....Then we all stand and pray together aloud. When the prayers are ended, we greet one another with a kiss. At that point, as we have already said, bread is brought, with wine mixed with water."
These items were used for a weekly Eucharist/communion service. Justin wrote that "none is allowed to share unless he believes the things we teach are true....For we do not receive them as ordinary bread and ordinary wine, but as Jesus Christ our Savior."
The texts used in common around the world in this liturgy eventually became the Christian Scripture canon, originally consisting of the Alexandrine Septuagint for the canon of the Old Testament and establishing the New Testament by the end of the 4th century. People learned the Scriptures by hearing them read on a cycle similar to the synangogue service, except these cycles became based on the birth, life, ministry, Passion, and resurrection of Christ throughout the year instead of the Jewish festivals.
The Bible was not available to individuals either in ancient Israel or even the first centuries of Christianity. Besides the canon being unsettled for Christians until the late 300s and literacy levels being low, widespread ownership of the Bible did not occur until the famous barefoot walk of the poor Welsh girl, Mary Jones, inspired Bible societies in the mid 1800s throughout the West to find a way to invent a way to provide Bibles for all.
Russell was born into a world where a loud minority of Adventists (and other new movements from the Second Great Awakening era in the USA) promoted an ignorant history that made it sound as if all people have always had access to a copy of the Scriptures since the first century, but had been oppressed from free Bible study by "papists and liturgical Protestantism." The truth is that individual Bible ownership is a relatively modern phenomenon that was born about 80 or so years before World War I. Prior to this there were almost no means to provide Bibles to anyone except mostly churches and the rich, and most people learned the Bible in church groups or from the liturgy and catechesis (as well as Protestant Sunday schools).
American New Religious Movements which discarded the liturgy (most due to simple ignorance), developed religious "services" based on Protestant Sunday school settings, and not due to historical research on how Christians originally worshiped. The Watchtower religion came from these uneducated groups who made up an impossible first century "history" where "true Christians" went about preaching and studying from their personal copies of the Bible...despite the fact that such a history was totally impossible, false, and a fantasy of the stupid.
 +3 / -0
hooberus
hooberus 3 days ago

Bubble, there are few even professing Christians here. "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ" 1 Cor. 3:11.
Faith should be in him. The biblical Jesus has always existed (Micah 5:2, John 8:58).
It's hard to find a solid church, even in the U.S. Most have adopted some form of works salvation.
 +1 / -0
hooberus
hooberus 3 days ago
As far as where now? Jesus is the way, the truth and the life.
 +2 / -0
Alive!
Alive! 3 days ago

I've been to a few baptist services - it seems there is room for diverse perspectives within the congregations - I don't see it as a future 'home'...but I'll visit.
I have a very strong spiritual hunger.....I used to love the JW bible studies way back, I just can't stomach that I had no choice but to accept teachings as current 'truth' at the time, when later, much is adjusted and changed, after I had seriously worked hard to study and make a particular 'old' interpretation 'work'.
I hated religion when I first met the witnesses.....I thought they were 'different' - over the years I couldn't live with a hurt conscience when I strongly could hear manipulative language and unloving guilt tripping.....and so much more.
Be patient. Church of England is extremely ritual based, so no surprises there. It wouldn't be for me as a 'home'.
I'm not looking for a church 'home' right now - but I find beauty and spiritual richness in participating in life and trusting that a greater purpose exists....
The org frightened me towards the end. Maybe I could have lived in the bubble if I had kept my head down, but I couldn't in all good conscience represent an organisation which I believe has a dangerously damaging culture.
Try getting involved in community driven aid, joining groups who are committed to helping fellow folk. You may find like minded believers who you can comfortably build friendships with....and at the same time, serve. But this way, you don't get to count hours.....how terrible was that?!!!!









 +2 / -0

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Topic Summary
so for the first time ever i went to a church service at my local church (coe) and i have to say it was awful!
it was just like a ritual.
the vicar would say something and then the congregation would all say a phrase in unison back to him.



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Faith, where now?
by Theburstbubble 3 days ago 32 Replies latest 2 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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Alive!
Alive! 3 days ago

Regarding ritual - there is a certain beauty in sacred, reverential observance of rituals.
We are all on our own journeys.
I have been regularly moved to tears by being more deeply involved with 'people' who care, are courageous and reverent.
This has been the hardest journey of my life since turning away from meetings and the inevitable loss of close association with my community of some 20 years.
Yet just yesterday, I met several people involved in a community work who glowed with a spirit that reflected true service and humility at the same time.
To me, God is everywhere. I don't understand or yet know the dimensions of eternity and time - but as someone said earlier, spiritually finding the absolute present in your heart is in itself being in the 'Kingdom' moment....
if we are indeed made in the image of a dynamic and eternal God, then surely there is enough information in that very phrase for us to trust that we have a journey to something beyond our present understanding.
 +3 / -0
Daniel1555
Daniel1555 3 days ago

You could even be ...
... spiritual without being religious.
... believe in a higher power, god without any organised religion.
... pray and have a personal relationship to god without following any manmade rituals or set of rules.
... free to explore all kind of religions / churches until you find the one you feel good in (if you need organised religion).
But the best is, you are free to live a happy and satisfying life according to your conscience.
 
Heaven
Heaven 3 days ago

If you are looking at learning about the Bible, you don't need to, and probably should not, go to a church.
Have you actually read the entire Bible? If not, maybe start there, writing down your questions as you go. I'd also suggest you start reading up on history. Perhaps, once you are ready, seek out Bible Scholars to discuss the Bible and ancient times. Are there any courses available at your schools on the history of the Bible? There are online courses available as well (eg. Dr. Bart Ehrman's The History Of The Bible: The Making Of The New Testament Canon). Be open to what was really going on back then. There was definitely an agenda by the first century Christians to standardize belief. (To this day, I truly believe they did not completely accomplish this task based on the variance of answers I get from Christians about their beliefs).

You don't have to belong to a church to find spirituality or the closeness of community. Maybe select a non-religious group in your area that has a common interest with your own, say, one that helps less fortunate people. Or one interested in the environment. Maybe you need a pet. Maybe you need to plant a garden.

Theburstbubble said: I know the majority of you on here are atheists but I still want to believe in something.
Besides Christianity, have you investigated any other faiths such as Judaism, Buddism, or Paganism/The Craft (aka Witches).
There is much to believe in, particularly things that work. You already know the foundations of love are wise. We all know this because it works.
I personally find Permaculture, it's ethics, principles that actually work, and their various global projects to be something I am quite interested in. But with all things you have to be conscious of the BITE model. I have seen a couple of these groups begin to go down the cult pathway.

 
Freesoul
Freesoul 3 days ago

After I left the cult I was too scared to go to any churches for a very long time. I believe you can pray to god wherever you are, you do not need a building.
But if you want to meet with other christians the type of church I would suggest is one that is more evangelical, I started looking for one a couple of years ago and decided that if I was going to a church and they were going to be preachy and try and make me feel guilty and would be out the door immediately.
I live in Melbourne Australia and found the Hillsong Church, I enjoy going there because I love the singing, I don't really like the preaching bit, I got enough of that while I was going up in the cult.
I believe it is good to do mediation and yoga as well, as this aligns us with our spirit and gets us back to our true nature and self.
 
Giordano
Giordano 3 days ago

For all of us who wish to honor Burstbubbles request one factor needs to be on the table..
Believing in something that is apparently not there............. that offers no response to one's individual needs nor provides any answers not attributed to mankind is problematic as well as disappointing.
The need is to find something that has substance. For most the shortest route to belief is to just stay in the tradition you were born into....... be it Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu etc.
Because mankind had no explanations for or understanding of so many things we evolved our explanations into various types of religions. A spirit world that provided us with a primitive understanding of our environment. A cause for all of the things we couldn't explain without a belief system.
We have had thousands of god's...Hindus have millions of god's. It is a natural response to help understand what is unknowable.
Eventually science has helped us understand many of the mysteries that we needed gods for. And those gods died out.

The conflict we now have is to find a way to justify a belief in an invisible being who according to any religious book in circulation is part insane, and or inane.
What it comes down to, in my opinion, is that looking for god is probably not near as important as finding a community you want to belong to.
The religious experience left to us ex JW's as well as every believing person is more about the people you choose to join then the god you choose to worship.
Within that community one's notion of a god will be respected. Being affirmed by others doesn't prove a god exists but at least it provides a comfort that is reassuring.
 
Phizzy
Phizzy 2 days ago

Mrs Phizzy and I, when we first left, attended a number of different Church Services, C of E, Baptist and others.
The best church we found was an independent one which had taken over a C of E church that had failed, and was run by a charismatic and enthusiastic preacher.
When he explained the Bible verses it was as good as the best commentaries, the Church was a wonderful community where all ages attended, the teenagers sat together in a group, and all sang along with the Gospel Rock band that led the hymns.
Needless to say, I did not go along with them as far as belief goes, I had begun to educate myself by then, but both of us enjoyed our visits there, even attending a wonderful Wedding service.
I would advise finding that kind of church, but getting an education with regard to the Bible, so as not to be duped again, and asking Science to answer your deep questions.
 
TheLiberator
TheLiberator 2 days ago

I personally was looking for a group of Bible students that was family like and serious students of the Bible. My friend indirectly introduced me to a group just like that. The core beliefs we have in common. Conscience matters are left as that. Today, I gave a "talk". I came up with the subject matter. The talk was more of a discussion as I intermingled questions throughout, and that allowed everyone to share there thoughts. We take breaks and have snacks. It seems to draw witnesses. If you take a look at the website and it's affiliate, you can see why.
http://www.scatteredbrethren.org
http://www.focusonthekingdom.org

 
cofty
cofty 2 days ago

The Liberator - Your doctrines are 99% Watchtower and your fellowship movement is pretty much how Russell got started.
 
TheLiberator
TheLiberator 2 days ago
That is exactly right.
 
cofty
cofty 2 days ago
So you have basically learned nothing from your time in the cult - apart from how to start a new one.
 

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Topic Summary
so for the first time ever i went to a church service at my local church (coe) and i have to say it was awful!
it was just like a ritual.
the vicar would say something and then the congregation would all say a phrase in unison back to him.



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Faith, where now?
by Theburstbubble 3 days ago 32 Replies latest 2 days ago   watchtower beliefs
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David_Jay
David_Jay 2 days ago

Cofty has raised a very important point.
The "humble Bible study" of Russell and his companions was flawed from the start. Like Mormonism, which is a religion that sees writings as the starting point and measure for Christianity, Russell was influenced by Adventism's similar view of religious revelation.
Christianity (and its father religion Judaism) is not based on writings. Christianity produced writings. The books that became the New Testament were not the basis for its religious doctrines but selected due to their use in liturgical worship over the first 350 years of Christianity's existence.
The Christian canon developed because of Marcion of Sinope, a bishop that turned to Gnosticism, who taught that holy writ was the ultimate form of spiritual enlightenment or revelation and thus the only true measure of Christian doctrine. His canon, limited to a few of Paul's epistles, an edited-down version of Luke, and a rejection of the entire library of Hebrew works, moved Christian bishops to use their authority to set a standard for books that aligned with official use. The process would not be completed until the 4th century.
Judaism is (allegedly) based on a series of theophanies given to the patriarchs, to Moses, and the Great Theophany at Sinai, or so the claim is made. The Jews later composed the books based on the religious interpretation of their own history (a work that did not take shape until after the Babylonian exile ended).
Christianity originated in a similar manner. Based on a series of epiphanies based on the identity of Jesus of Nazareth, the Christian movement was born. Like Judaism before it, Christianity was not based on writings, rather it produced writings. Christianity, according to its own historical claim, is based on Jesus being the ultimate and final revelation in God, not the Scriptures. As so-called religious "truth" was found in the people of Israel, Christian "truth" was deposited in the community or "church" of Christian believers.
The Bible is merely a product of these movements, considered inspired and a revelation in and of themselves, true, but a testimony to something greater nevertheless. Russell's mistake was that of Joseph Smith. They, like Marcion of Sinope, believed and advocated the Gnostic teaching that the ultimate revelation of truth was found in the written word of religious movements, and not anywhere else in the community of believers that originally produced them.
Limiting themselves to the scope of what is composed on paper, all three men came up with odd and "unique" doctrines contrary to those taught by the communities that composed the texts. Without noting a deposit of faith that consists of both theological practice and written works, and accepting only the written texts, peculiar religions resulted. (In Smith's case he went one step further and claimed that an additional written text was also necessary.)
Limiting oneself to the Bible independent of the religions, cultures, peoples and theology that composed them is dangerous. It would be like taking the writings of the Dalai Lama and following them but rejecting his religion. It would be like basing a religion on Hubbard's "Dianetics" but claiming that Scientology did not have to be studied or followed. That is absurd, but it is what Russell did when studying the Bible and claiming that the Christianity that composed it and canonized it should be rejected, to curse the religion but praise its product, its book.
One does not have to be a theist to see the insanity of following the Gnostic rule that ultimate truth is found only in the written texts of a religion, but not in the religion itself. If the religion is false then its writings can't be true, especially when the religion came first and produced the writings, using its own authority to canonize them.
 +1 / -0
Captain Schmideo2
Captain Schmideo2 2 days ago

David_Jay-
Do you mean to say that the 1st century Christians didn't go around door to door with portable scrolls?






 +2 / -0
DATA-DOG
DATA-DOG 2 days ago

I guess you need to go where you feel welcome and safe, and feel like you matter. Personally, if I get out of the JW-cult, I could never set foot in an Xian establishment.
I would rather be alone forever, than to be part of an organized religion where ignoring reason is considered a strength.
My next "religion" will involve a sweet girl with tattoos and some type of motorcycle, and lots of sex. Actually, I'll probably just stay home.....
DD
 

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Topic Summary
so for the first time ever i went to a church service at my local church (coe) and i have to say it was awful!
it was just like a ritual.
the vicar would say something and then the congregation would all say a phrase in unison back to him.



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by KiddingMe 6 months ago
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The extent that desperate cults will go to keep control of their youth
by JakeM2012 6 months ago
cofty
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by cofty 2 months ago



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Theburstbubble
32
Faith, where now?
by Theburstbubble in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 3 days ago
so for the first time ever i went to a church service at my local church (coe) and i have to say it was awful!

it was just like a ritual.

the vicar would say something and then the congregation would all say a phrase in unison back to him.

David_Jay
Captain Schmideo2
DATA-DOG
2 days ago
cofty
5
Top Five Misconceptions about Evolution
by cofty in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 3 days ago
very handy little article that might clear up some muddle...

cofty
LoveUniHateExams
Je.suis.oisif
3 days ago
prologos
9
When you were really "in", did you have a pet idea that would steer wt into divine favor?
by prologos in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 3 days ago
wt writers ( klein) admitted at one time, that his majesty's doctrinal ship was zigzagging to find the right course, and many of us believed, that if we accepted the bible as true, cleaning up the teachings would establish the right bearing.

so: did you have a hobby-horse idea you were riding?

writing to brooklyn perhaps?

elbib
Anders Andersen
prologos
2 days ago
berrygerry
13
the Guardians of Doctrine - What was your view of GB 1.0?
by berrygerry in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 4 days ago
when i was an all-in, younger, somewhat uber-dub - i envisioned the governing body as spending 16 to 18 hours a day at the bethel library, with their noses in the bible and associated research books.

sky-j was propelling his holy spirit directly at them, maybe opening the book to the right page or paragraph, and zap, new light.. when i learned that these dudes only met on wednesday mornings, for as little as 10 minutes, and spent the rest of their time managing and traveling, it was quite a letdown.. anyone have such thoughts of our guardians of doctrine?.

Vidiot
flipper
Vidiot
2 days ago
xjwsrock
5
How About We Call It "The Trance" Instead of "The Truth"
by xjwsrock in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 4 days ago
let's see if it works as a replacement in common phrases:.

"how long have you been in the trance?".

"when did you come into the trance?".

FayeDunaway
tiki
tiki
4 days ago
bobld
16
I am confused,bewildered
by bobld in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 4 days ago
on their social media site:why do we attend large assemblies?

god's sevants in the past,who were instructed to assemble three times a year, we.

look forward to meeting together in large groups.soon they will be out in full force.

Lieu
Vidiot
DesirousOfChange
a day ago
Joyzabel
17
WT's expert on blood!
by Joyzabel in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Blood, Medical Treatment & Depression
 4 days ago
the january 8, 2000 awake magazine published an article "the growing demand for bloodless medicine and surgery".

this article has been quoted extensively by jws as support for their "scientific" justification for refusing blood products.. a quote from that article that is familiar to most jws and exjws is this one:.

“all those dealing with blood and caring for surgical patients have to consider bloodless surgery.”—dr.

Watchtower-Free
wifibandit
undercover
a day ago
cofty
21
Leaving The Cult is Exactly Like This...
by cofty in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 4 days ago
.

Finkelstein
MarkofCane
TheFadingAlbatros
3 days ago
StarTrekAngel
5
Prince could potentially have a JW funeral
by StarTrekAngel in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 4 days ago
the question is, are there two credible witnesses to the allegations of overdose?

if i understand correctly from the research into child abuse, the medical diagnosis would not count as a witness.. was he baptized?

what year?.

whathappened
Richard_I
oppostate
4 days ago
pleaseresearch
2
(Prince) Funeral in Kingdom even if he died due to overdose?
by pleaseresearch in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 4 days ago
i believe they are doing an autopsy on prince now.

let's hope he didn't die due to drugs, but... if he did, would he still be given a jw funeral?

joe134cd
pleaseresearch
4 days ago
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Xanthippe
No Birthday cards
by Xanthippe in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 2 days ago
so no cards again yesterday from my daughter's uncle and aunts, my jw siblings, for her 21st birthday.

😀 no i didn't expect any but i just wonder if they even know she's twenty-one now.

do her cousins, one of whom has a baby of his own now?

pleaseresearch
24
Armageddon comes and you have 5 minutes with Jesus
by pleaseresearch in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 2 days ago
so the big a comes, your third in line to be judged by jesus.

he wants to know why you left the organisation.

he also wants to know why jws remained with the org.

millie210
Juan Viejo2
Crazyguy
2 hours ago
Brokeback Watchtower
20
What was there before the Big Bang?
by Brokeback Watchtower in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 2 days ago https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpuhj98vjoa.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hik8hj0_t9q.

sowhatnow
Fisherman
prologos
a day ago
ScenicViewer
16
A Watchtower double standard: Rejection and the silent treatment.
by ScenicViewer in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 2 days ago
a recent watchtower study article shows how bad it is to be rejected over religious beliefs when olga revealed that her husband was not speaking to her because she is a jehovah's witness.. 9 in south america, olga proved loyal to god by showing respect for her husband even under trying circumstances.

for years, he expressed annoyance at her for being one of jehovah’s witnesses.

he abused her emotionally, insulted her, refused to speak to her, and threatened to take the children and leave her.

ToesUp
ScenicViewer
punkofnice
13 hours ago
Village Idiot
22
How Many Elders And Ministerial Servants Are There In Your Congregation?
by Village Idiot in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 2 days ago
i'm curious to see how much manpower a little congregation - a hundred?

- requires to keep it running.

rebelfighter
konceptual99
rebelfighter
10 hours ago
HowTheBibleWasCreated
4
A lucid dream last night...exposes JW thinking
by HowTheBibleWasCreated in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 2 days ago
for anyone who understands lucid dreaming this story will come to no surprise.

if not lucid dreaming is defined as a dream where you know you are dreaming and have control of the dream.. last night during a dream i was at my uncles place for some reason.

my uncle is an elder, raised ia jw, pioneered in quebec in the 60s and is often giving talks at conventions.

HowTheBibleWasCreated
fukitol
WhatshallIcallmyself
2 days ago
JACOB Meza
7
What is the Modern Christian's Role, According to the Bible
by JACOB Meza in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 2 days ago
if any other christians can answer this:.

what is the role of the believer in this day of the church (the body of christ, not the building)?.

is preaching a main goal?.

Lieu
FayeDunaway
fukitol
2 days ago
zeb
25
Oh happy people
by zeb in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 3 days ago
what is it with meetings?.

so often she comes home throws her bag down and stomps around the house.

there are times it thoroughly gets me down.. + supportive comment welcome.

zeb
Alive!
stillin
2 days ago
Darkknight757
19
Assimilation day: Imitate Jokeovah!
by Darkknight757 in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 3 days ago
so today was the one day assembly or whatever it's called now.

fun times.😳.

use resources wisely:.

Lieu
Darkknight757
WTWizard
2 days ago
Theburstbubble
32
Faith, where now?
by Theburstbubble in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 3 days ago
so for the first time ever i went to a church service at my local church (coe) and i have to say it was awful!

it was just like a ritual.

the vicar would say something and then the congregation would all say a phrase in unison back to him.

David_Jay
Captain Schmideo2
DATA-DOG
2 days ago
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eyeuse2badub
6
HOW DO YOU LIKE ME NOW?
by eyeuse2badub in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 12 hours ago
report in the news today that prince is leaving a large portion of his fortune to the watchtower.

bet the gb loves prince now and his 'questionable' music!.

just sayingeyeuse2badub.

Finkelstein
Dunedain
violias
4 hours ago
pleaseresearch
29
Watchtower set for its biggest pay day, ever.
by pleaseresearch in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 18 hours ago
if this is true, and we will have to wait and see.

prince could give everything to the watchtower.

so that's his $300 million fortune.

Lee Elder
dubstepped
DATA-DOG
an hour ago
James Mixon
11
Adam buried at the foot of Christ's cross. Are you kidding me.
by James Mixon in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 a day ago
i heard this on "the story of god".

his blood trickle down through the rocks into adam giving.

him life.

Captain Schmideo2
Vidiot
Lieu
10 hours ago
Crazyguy
1
Much todo about nothing
by Crazyguy in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Blood, Medical Treatment & Depression
 a day ago
i was with a friend that had a surgery and of course they are witnesses and they went through all the blood documents before surgery.

then with another friend they prayed to the great bull god jah and thanked him for all the bloodless techniques now used by the hospital etc.

the doctor made it clear that the chance of even needing blood was minimal and the surgery now is real easy.

freddo
a day ago
wifibandit
5
San Diego: Osbaldo Padron v Watchtower
by wifibandit in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Child Abuse Issues
 a day ago http://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2016/apr/24/ticker-tough-build-jehovahs-witness-sex-abuse-case.

tough to build jehovah's witness sex-abuse case.

11. without documents, says plaintiff, he can’t get justice.

smiddy
TheOldHippie
smiddy
19 hours ago
StarTrekAngel
9
MIL says she wants to donate home
by StarTrekAngel in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 a day ago
so my wife and her sisters found out this weekend that their mother has contemplated donating her home to the wt.

she did not tell them directly.

i am afraid she knew they would not agree.

LoveUniHateExams
DesirousOfChange
Lostandfound
a day ago
Sugar Shane
25
San Diego abuse case: stay tuned. Zalkin's motion to be considered this Friday.
by Sugar Shane in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Scandals & Coverups
 a day ago
zalkin proposing huge sanctions if jw leadership fails to produce documents.

unredacted this time!

feds need to get involved with this.

wifibandit
KiddingMe
Vidiot
4 hours ago
elbib
6
Why bring God when you can do it yourself?
by elbib in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 2 days ago
when under temptation, one can easily deflate it by simply changing his thoughts and choosing his associations wisely.

(philippians 4:8, 9; 1 corinthians 15:33) then why did jesus teach us to pray to god: “lead us not into temptation”?

(mathew 6:13) .

David_Jay
Diogenesister
elbib
a day ago
punkofnice
6
Break a promise okay with watchtower?
by punkofnice in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 2 days ago
15:4. unless we come to the realization that we have made an unscriptural promise, we should do all we can to fulfill our word, even if it is very difficult to do so.

w06 5/15 p. 17-p. 20 par.

16. highlights from book one of psalms.

Dunedain
punkofnice
Lieu
9 hours ago
Xanthippe
No Birthday cards
by Xanthippe in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 2 days ago
so no cards again yesterday from my daughter's uncle and aunts, my jw siblings, for her 21st birthday.

😀 no i didn't expect any but i just wonder if they even know she's twenty-one now.

do her cousins, one of whom has a baby of his own now?


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 322,660 posts in  16,607 topics

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What Jehovah's Witnesses believe and why they do what they do
 809,561 posts in  30,012 topics

Scandals & Coverups
Investigations into the WatchTower organisations United Nations (UN) involvement etc...
 114,385 posts in  5,657 topics

Child Abuse Issues
Child Molestation & Abuse Issues and other coverups
 70,186 posts in  4,048 topics

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Darkknight757
Jonah's success, J-dubs failure in preaching.
by Darkknight757 in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 8 minutes ago
3:1 then the word of the lord came to jonah a second time: 2 “go to the great city of nineveh and proclaim to it the message i give you.”3 jonah obeyed the word of the lord and went to nineveh.

now nineveh was a very large city; it took three days to go through it.

4 jonah began by going a day’s journey into the city, proclaiming, “forty more days and nineveh will be overthrown.” 5 the ninevites believed god.

Londo111
9
The Law of Unintended Consequences
by Londo111 in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 7 hours ago
the governing body/watchtower unduly influences millions into extreme beliefs and behaviors.

and i suspect folks like anthony morris thinks his flock is not obedient or strict enough and there are many rules and teachings the governing body would love to enact but do not have the votes, or even they have the sense enough to know it would go too far.

however, i can’t help how by the time their edicts filter down to the rank and file jw, it causes unintended consequences.

Spiral
talesin
jwleaks
2 hours ago
Yondaime
25
I think my Sunday speaker is awake
by Yondaime in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 7 hours ago
hi guys and gals,.

its been a long time since i've posted here, i've been caught up with school and work so i've never had the time to post on the forum, but i've still been reading through some articles on here.

now that finals are over i have some time to breath.

Hecce
elbib
Jehalapeno
an hour ago
eyeuse2badub
6
HOW DO YOU LIKE ME NOW?
by eyeuse2badub in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 12 hours ago
report in the news today that prince is leaving a large portion of his fortune to the watchtower.

bet the gb loves prince now and his 'questionable' music!.

just sayingeyeuse2badub.

Finkelstein
Dunedain
violias
4 hours ago
pleaseresearch
29
Watchtower set for its biggest pay day, ever.
by pleaseresearch in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 18 hours ago
if this is true, and we will have to wait and see.

prince could give everything to the watchtower.

so that's his $300 million fortune.

Lee Elder
dubstepped
DATA-DOG
an hour ago
James Mixon
11
Adam buried at the foot of Christ's cross. Are you kidding me.
by James Mixon in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Bible Research & Study Articles
 a day ago
i heard this on "the story of god".

his blood trickle down through the rocks into adam giving.

him life.

Captain Schmideo2
Vidiot
Lieu
10 hours ago
Crazyguy
1
Much todo about nothing
by Crazyguy in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Blood, Medical Treatment & Depression
 a day ago
i was with a friend that had a surgery and of course they are witnesses and they went through all the blood documents before surgery.

then with another friend they prayed to the great bull god jah and thanked him for all the bloodless techniques now used by the hospital etc.

the doctor made it clear that the chance of even needing blood was minimal and the surgery now is real easy.

freddo
a day ago
wifibandit
5
San Diego: Osbaldo Padron v Watchtower
by wifibandit in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Child Abuse Issues
 a day ago http://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2016/apr/24/ticker-tough-build-jehovahs-witness-sex-abuse-case.

tough to build jehovah's witness sex-abuse case.

11. without documents, says plaintiff, he can’t get justice.

smiddy
TheOldHippie
smiddy
19 hours ago
StarTrekAngel
9
MIL says she wants to donate home
by StarTrekAngel in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Beliefs, Doctrine & Practices
 a day ago
so my wife and her sisters found out this weekend that their mother has contemplated donating her home to the wt.

she did not tell them directly.

i am afraid she knew they would not agree.

LoveUniHateExams
DesirousOfChange
Lostandfound
a day ago
Sugar Shane
25
San Diego abuse case: stay tuned. Zalkin's motion to be considered this Friday.
by Sugar Shane in Watchtower Society / JW.org
 » Scandals & Coverups
 a day ago
zalkin proposing huge sanctions if jw leadership fails to produce documents.

unredacted this time!

feds need to get involved with this.

wifibandit
KiddingMe
Vidiot
4 hours ago
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 322,660 posts in  16,607 topics

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What Jehovah's Witnesses believe and why they do what they do
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Investigations into the WatchTower organisations United Nations (UN) involvement etc...
 114,385 posts in  5,657 topics

Child Abuse Issues
Child Molestation & Abuse Issues and other coverups
 70,186 posts in  4,048 topics

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