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2015 Conference
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Financial Report for 2011 to Date

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Forum Home  >  Member Forums  >  The Community Forum  >  Thread 
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What’s inside  
Posted: 13 April 2016 09:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
Avatar
superdjidane
Jr. Member
RankRank
Joined  2014-06-24
 
  
 
You maybe have seen recently a Youtube video about a lively and mischievous blond kid, Lincoln, and his conniving father Dan, who made a lot of video about cutting things in two to see what'inside. (Gold club, balls, stones, whatever..)
 
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSrPuHtKbst7Zy8pyWn_3Cg
 
Thoses videos are lot of fun and I love it. But I realized that the father is a LDS member.
 
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSrPuHtKbst7Zy8pyWn_3Cg
 
In can see Dan alway wear LDS garments undeur his T-Shirt, even in Sommer. Supposing he's a regular churchgoer.
 
I'm a bit disappointed, when I think about Lincoln enventually bound to be an LDS member too, serve later in mission and wear those msonic awefull garments...


   


Posted: 13 April 2016 09:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
Avatar
Matter Unorganized
Long Timer
RankRankRankRankRank
Joined  2011-01-22
 
  
 
It's hard for me too when I realize someon is a deluded mormon, but then... Regular rank-and-file members of the church are just people, same as you and me, trying to do their best, the best way they know how.
 
Just because someone is mormon doesn't make them a jackass (I have to constantly remind myself of that). Television as we know it was invented by a mormon (Philo T. Farnsworth). Many important scientific and medical discoveries were made by mormons. That doesn't mean I'll reject those discoveries because of who discovered them!
 
Some days it's way more difficult for me to separate the religion from the people, but it's something we need to do.
 
The real scoundrels within mormonism are those who know the truth about it, but still lie to the public and to the members about it. 
 Signature
You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler


   


            
 
 ‹‹ YBU places Honor Code above safety and security of rape victims.        Comparison of Joseph Smith to Charles Ingalls ››  
 
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My sister escaped and she's poking the hornet nest
by former victim
Missionary run ins
by former victim
I never got an answer
by Winyan
Otterson Is a liar. It Is Betrayal.
by Morethanmo
The Several Facets of Truth
by bradspencer74
Other signs of LDS decline - please add to the list
by Celestial Wedgie
Has anyone been watching "The Story of God" narrated by Morgan Freeman?
by TheDogLady
Comparison of Joseph Smith to Charles Ingalls
by TheDogLady
INTRODUCE YOURSELVES - TAG YOU'RE IT!
by Celestial Wedgie
YBU places Honor Code above safety and security of rape victims.
by WinstonSmith
What's inside
by Matter Unorganized
My story is now over on Mormon Think
by Bruce A Holt
The world has gone mad!!!
by Morethanmo
Man I've been pissed off at the morg lately...
by peace out
A Ray of Hope
by Lloyd Dobler
What else can you call it, but the GREAT MANIPULATION!
by maynardg
One more thing for women
by maynardg
You can leave the church, but the church won't leave you alone: Targeted Assaults!
by maynardg
Science vs. religion
by Celestial Wedgie
2015 statistics
by Celestial Wedgie 

   http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/42237/





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2015 Conference
"LEAVING A LEGACY"
October 16-18
Doubletree Suites
SLC, Utah




















 


Financial Report for 2011 to Date

Financial Report for 2010 to Date

Financial Report for 2009

Twin Falls Newspaper Article

Twin Falls Billboard

Financial Report for 2009 to Date




The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]

Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]

Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]



Coming up May 1’st 2016 - Kristyn Decker to lecture!
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (4/3)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
Imprompu get-together
[Dead Prophets Soc...] 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (3/6)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series- March 6th, 2016 Author Dave Nelson
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
Open House Meetup: 3/19/16
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
Train ride and picnic Meetup: 2/27/16
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series February 7th, 2016- Joe Rawlins
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
SF Bay Area Super Bowl Party (Feb 7)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
Jan 10th, 2016-Southern Utah PostMormons will present an outstanding lecture combo
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
New Year's Eve Party
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (1/3)
[San Francisco Bay...] 


Book of Mormon Tories
by Chris Sexton 
Why I am a Better Mother
by antipsicótica 
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by Barney 
Resignation Letter to My Family
sam2

Post-mormon Roles
sam2

Post-mormon Roles
former victim

The Book of Mormon Musical comes to South Carolina!
Swearing Elder

Resignation Letter to My Family
INRETROSPECT

Resignation Letter to My Family
oneanother

Utah County CALM meetup for November
BlackSheep2

FACEBOOK INFO
Crissy

FACEBOOK INFO
Barn

October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
Starfleet

October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
alvie

Why I am a Better Mother
by aworkinprogress 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
exmoinaz

SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
owned

The Mormon Mask
by Born Free 
Las Vegas Meetup--Jazz in the Park Saturday May 10 6:30PM
onendagus

Resignation Letter to My Family
ShadowSage

Resignation Letter to My Family
ShadowSage

Guru Busters
by Flora4 
Guru Busters
by Flora4 
Resignation Letter to My Family
Hbush1987

General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
Swearing Elder


            

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Forum Home  >  Member Forums  >  The Community Forum  >  Thread 
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YBU places Honor Code above safety and security of rape victims.  
Posted: 13 April 2016 09:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
Avatar
Matter Unorganized
Long Timer
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Joined  2011-01-22
 
  
 
The last thing a rape victim needs is an obstacle to stand in her* way of reporting the crime. BYU apparently doesn't care about that. In this SL Tribune article, BYU students who were victims of rape report that the Honor Code office investigates them and kicks them out of the school if any of their actions outside the rules resulted in the rape. For instance, if they were breaking curfew, or if she had the guy in her room, she gets kicked out for the violation.
 
One of the biggest obstacles to victims of sexual assault coming forward is our cultural blaming of the victim in any way, shape or form. Many institutions, be it educational, civic or otherwise, have taken steps to make it easier for victims of sexual assault to come forward and not have to re-live their ordeal in explicit detail.
 
One would think that (mormon) God's one true university would be the first to extend a loving, supportive hand to victims of rape and make it easier for them by removing any obstacles, but oh no, the good name of the univiersity (and, by extension, the good name of the so-called church) is more important than the well-being of the victim. Rules and regulations are placed ahead of love and support. As usual (see polygamy, blacks & the priesthood, and now LGBTQ+ rights), the church remains in the dark ages, despite their claim of living profits and apostles who guide the church with direct input from Jesus Christ (allegedly).
 
Even more horrifying, the women who have been victimized are reluctant to come forward, thus leaving the CRIMINAL free to roam and assault another victim.
 
But back to the rules and regulations (honor code) for an instant: The very Jesus that mormons claim to worship saw that the scribes and pharisees of his day put more importance on the letter of the law than the spirit thereof. Jesus called them hypocrites. The church, and BYU, would do well to read their scriptures and FOLLOW them.
 
 
 
*I fully understand that the victim could be male, but the examples in the article were all women.
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You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler


   


Posted: 13 April 2016 10:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
Avatar
WinstonSmith
Long Timer
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Joined  2011-09-26
 
  
 
MU,
 
Unfortunately this issue is still much bigger than just Mormonism.
 
I do agree that the Mormon Church perpetuates this in its own culture, and it is very unfortunate. But remember that the very words of the Mormon Temple "Sealing" ceremony are implicit that the women is the property of the man.  I don't see this culture changing until the doctrines, narratives, dogma and propoganda of the Church treat women more than "property".
 
The Mormon thought process is "cause and effect", "If, Then". Example: If a BYU coed was raped in her apartment, then she is at fault because the guy should not have been there. If a BYU coed was raped in a guys appartment, then she is at fault because she should not have been there. If a BYU coed was raped in a park, then she is at fault because something (sin) prevented her from hearing the promptings of the spirit to avoid being there.
 
The thought process is wrong and apauling. But don't think for a second that the norms of society are any less barbaric---case-n-point: North Carolina & Tenessee.
 
Yesterday in Colorado (the first state to legalize recreational marijuana) shut down a bill that would outlaw "conversion therapy" for LGBT minors. The end of the news sound bite stated that only 4 states in the US currently outlaw this barbaric oppression.  Yes this is correct---in the 2016 United States of America 46 states still legally allow "conversion therapy" to be impossed on LGBT human beings under the age of 18. 
 
 
I didn't mean to stray from the topic of "rape", but it is this type of thinking that allows for such injustices. 
 Signature
“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”  -Marcus Aurelius


   


            
 
 ‹‹ Otterson Is a liar. It Is Betrayal.        What’s inside ››  
 
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My sister escaped and she's poking the hornet nest
by former victim
Missionary run ins
by former victim
I never got an answer
by Winyan
Otterson Is a liar. It Is Betrayal.
by Morethanmo
The Several Facets of Truth
by bradspencer74
Other signs of LDS decline - please add to the list
by Celestial Wedgie
Has anyone been watching "The Story of God" narrated by Morgan Freeman?
by TheDogLady
Comparison of Joseph Smith to Charles Ingalls
by TheDogLady
INTRODUCE YOURSELVES - TAG YOU'RE IT!
by Celestial Wedgie
YBU places Honor Code above safety and security of rape victims.
by WinstonSmith
What's inside
by Matter Unorganized
My story is now over on Mormon Think
by Bruce A Holt
The world has gone mad!!!
by Morethanmo
Man I've been pissed off at the morg lately...
by peace out
A Ray of Hope
by Lloyd Dobler
What else can you call it, but the GREAT MANIPULATION!
by maynardg
One more thing for women
by maynardg
You can leave the church, but the church won't leave you alone: Targeted Assaults!
by maynardg
Science vs. religion
by Celestial Wedgie
2015 statistics
by Celestial Wedgie 

   http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/42236/





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2015 Conference
"LEAVING A LEGACY"
October 16-18
Doubletree Suites
SLC, Utah




















 


Financial Report for 2011 to Date

Financial Report for 2010 to Date

Financial Report for 2009

Twin Falls Newspaper Article

Twin Falls Billboard

Financial Report for 2009 to Date




The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]

Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]

Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]



Coming up May 1’st 2016 - Kristyn Decker to lecture!
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (4/3)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
Imprompu get-together
[Dead Prophets Soc...] 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (3/6)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series- March 6th, 2016 Author Dave Nelson
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
Open House Meetup: 3/19/16
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
Train ride and picnic Meetup: 2/27/16
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series February 7th, 2016- Joe Rawlins
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
SF Bay Area Super Bowl Party (Feb 7)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
Jan 10th, 2016-Southern Utah PostMormons will present an outstanding lecture combo
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
New Year's Eve Party
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (1/3)
[San Francisco Bay...] 


Book of Mormon Tories
by Chris Sexton 
Why I am a Better Mother
by antipsicótica 
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by Barney 
Resignation Letter to My Family
sam2

Post-mormon Roles
sam2

Post-mormon Roles
former victim

The Book of Mormon Musical comes to South Carolina!
Swearing Elder

Resignation Letter to My Family
INRETROSPECT

Resignation Letter to My Family
oneanother

Utah County CALM meetup for November
BlackSheep2

FACEBOOK INFO
Crissy

FACEBOOK INFO
Barn

October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
Starfleet

October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
alvie

Why I am a Better Mother
by aworkinprogress 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
exmoinaz

SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
owned

The Mormon Mask
by Born Free 
Las Vegas Meetup--Jazz in the Park Saturday May 10 6:30PM
onendagus

Resignation Letter to My Family
ShadowSage

Resignation Letter to My Family
ShadowSage

Guru Busters
by Flora4 
Guru Busters
by Flora4 
Resignation Letter to My Family
Hbush1987

General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
Swearing Elder


            

Home Our Community
Discussion Forums
    · The Community Forum
 Post-Mormon Chapters

Chapters in Utah

Cache Valley Post-Mormons
 Calm of N. Davis County and Weber County Post-Mormons
 Calm of South Davis County Post-Mormons
 Calm of Utah County Post-Mormons
 Dead Prophets Society Post-Mormons
 Long Valley Post-Mormons
 Millard County Post-Mormons
 New Hope Post-Mormons of Weber Co.
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 All other chapters

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It Gets Better!
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Post-Mormon News Blog
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Forum Home  >  Member Forums  >  The Community Forum  >  Thread 
   It gets better! Resources to help with coping 
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   Why is there sometimes anger here? 
   Glossary of Post-Mormon Terms 
   Frequently Asked Questions 

  
Advanced Search     
 
       
Comparison of Joseph Smith to Charles Ingalls  
Posted: 13 April 2016 01:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
TheDogLady
Newbie
Rank
Joined  2016-04-09
 
  
 
I can not help comparing and contrasting JS and Charles Ingalls. I have always been a fan ofThe Little House on the Prairie Books. They were really not contemporaries JS born in 1805 and CI in 1836. Laura may have embellished her father a little in her books but this is what we know for sure:
Charles Ingalls:
Hard working
enterprising
Known as an upstanding citizen
Given to imaginitive story telling but only with his children
Wanderlust
Farmer, on school board, served as Mayor
Free Mason
Began the Congregational Church and was a faithful member all his life. Held many services in his house
Honest and upright citizen
Courteous
Faithful to his wife
Kind and loving
good neigbor
First to build a home in De Smet County South Dakota.
 
Joseph Smith:
Lazy
Hated farm work
supersticious
Lived off the generosity of others
Swindler
Marrier of other men's wives and teenagers
Liar 
Cheat
Swindler
Given to flights of fancy
Believed in 'magic gifts" faith healings and speaking in tongues
Free Mason
Wanderlust
Anyone have anything else to add?


   


            
 
 ‹‹ What’s inside        My sister escaped and she’s poking the hornet nest ››  
 
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Logged in: 1
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Total members: 10242 


My sister escaped and she's poking the hornet nest
by former victim
Missionary run ins
by former victim
I never got an answer
by Winyan
Otterson Is a liar. It Is Betrayal.
by Morethanmo
The Several Facets of Truth
by bradspencer74
Other signs of LDS decline - please add to the list
by Celestial Wedgie
Has anyone been watching "The Story of God" narrated by Morgan Freeman?
by TheDogLady
Comparison of Joseph Smith to Charles Ingalls
by TheDogLady
INTRODUCE YOURSELVES - TAG YOU'RE IT!
by Celestial Wedgie
YBU places Honor Code above safety and security of rape victims.
by WinstonSmith
What's inside
by Matter Unorganized
My story is now over on Mormon Think
by Bruce A Holt
The world has gone mad!!!
by Morethanmo
Man I've been pissed off at the morg lately...
by peace out
A Ray of Hope
by Lloyd Dobler
What else can you call it, but the GREAT MANIPULATION!
by maynardg
One more thing for women
by maynardg
You can leave the church, but the church won't leave you alone: Targeted Assaults!
by maynardg
Science vs. religion
by Celestial Wedgie
2015 statistics
by Celestial Wedgie 

   http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/42238/





This page is loading.
Please wait...
 
2015 Conference
"LEAVING A LEGACY"
October 16-18
Doubletree Suites
SLC, Utah




















 


Financial Report for 2011 to Date

Financial Report for 2010 to Date

Financial Report for 2009

Twin Falls Newspaper Article

Twin Falls Billboard

Financial Report for 2009 to Date




The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]

Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]

Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]



Coming up May 1’st 2016 - Kristyn Decker to lecture!
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (4/3)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
Imprompu get-together
[Dead Prophets Soc...] 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (3/6)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series- March 6th, 2016 Author Dave Nelson
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
Open House Meetup: 3/19/16
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
Train ride and picnic Meetup: 2/27/16
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series February 7th, 2016- Joe Rawlins
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
SF Bay Area Super Bowl Party (Feb 7)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
Jan 10th, 2016-Southern Utah PostMormons will present an outstanding lecture combo
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
New Year's Eve Party
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (1/3)
[San Francisco Bay...] 


Book of Mormon Tories
by Chris Sexton 
Why I am a Better Mother
by antipsicótica 
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by Barney 
Resignation Letter to My Family
sam2

Post-mormon Roles
sam2

Post-mormon Roles
former victim

The Book of Mormon Musical comes to South Carolina!
Swearing Elder

Resignation Letter to My Family
INRETROSPECT

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Has anyone been watching “The Story of God” narrated by Morgan Freeman?  
Posted: 05 April 2016 04:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
former victim
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The first airing was last Sunday evening on the Nat Geo channel and I found it quite interesting....so far.   

   


Posted: 05 April 2016 09:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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I didn't see it. What have they said so far? 

   


Posted: 06 April 2016 03:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
former victim
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Quite a bit actually. I recorded it so I could learn and compare different belief systems. Morgan, I think, is attempting to show the major religions of the world in several installments over the course of the series.
 
Starting back in Egypt, 5,000 years ago, and showing what the Egyptians believed happened after death and how that belief formed their lives back in the day.
 
Going into other current major religions in upcoming episodes and what they conceptualize happens after death, should provide more understanding, to the viewers, especially myself, who find this intriguing,
 
 Learning what others are brought up to think about the meaning of life and the unanswerable question of what might happen after death.


   


Posted: 06 April 2016 05:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
peace out
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former victim: 
I think we all have been a bit obsessed with this subject over the years. I saw part of it.
I just hope they don't get to nicey-nice with the religions and hold to evidence and data.
There is little to learn from religion other than a historical perspective unless you hold to evidence. From the bit I saw sounds like they tried to bring objectivity into the discussion.
 
I will have to pull it up on DVR and watch the whole thing. 
thanks for the recomend. 
 
Update: it's not on my on-demand TV but I set it up to record first episode, S1 E1 is still being broadcast. 


   


Posted: 07 April 2016 04:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
former victim
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Peace Out, Morgan seems to be striving for that objectivity and facts/evidence. Whether he manages to stay the course, remains to be seen. 

   


Posted: 10 April 2016 12:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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So far, it's pretty interesting, and compares what different religions say about life, including what they say happens when we die. Of course, they just showed the first episode, so hopefully the objectivity will remain in the other episodes.
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Posted: 10 April 2016 07:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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This is a brilliant approach, IMO.
On one level it is a study of religions.
But most religions rely upon their own believers remaining ignorant of others beliefs.
But when you can compare beliefs, amazing things happen.
For instance, I remember comparing notes with a former SDA as to who he was raised to believe the Great and Abdominable Whore was.
His answer: the Catholic Church in particular, but everyone else except the SDA.
Mine, of course: the Catholic Church in particular, but everyone else except the Mormons
 
And you could go on and on, with each step revealing more about the sheer bat-shit-crazy that is religious belief.
Compatative religious study is a great way to erode religious credibility.
I'm all for it.
 
Daryl 
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Posted: 11 April 2016 03:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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As the next segments of the series play out, erosion of religious credibility may occur Born Free. It already has for me. 

   


Posted: 11 April 2016 04:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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I've been meaning to watch it, but haven't gotten to it yet (I have the first two episodes on DVR). My interest was piqued when I heard an interview with Freeman on NPR. Here's the approach he took in doing the series:
 
"In other words, your curiosity is fueled by your not knowing. I don't think that we would have been nearly as successful in engaging other people if I had a bias, a strong bias." 
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Posted: 13 April 2016 01:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
TheDogLady
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Swearing Elder:
I've been meaning to watch it, but haven't gotten to it yet (I have the first two episodes on DVR). My interest was piqued when I heard an interview with Freeman on NPR. Here's the approach he took in doing the series:
 
"In other words, your curiosity is fueled by your not knowing. I don't think that we would have been nearly as successful in engaging other people if I had a bias, a strong bias." 
 
 It has been very interesting. They have gone over many different theories, not just Christianity. The first two episodes are on Hulu. Check it out. ps Love Morgan Freeman!


   


            
 
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Other signs of LDS decline - please add to the list  
Posted: 08 April 2016 03:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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I am hoping that the recent post "general confrunz" statistical crunchings are valid and will continue on their downward trends.
Might these be additional markers of decline and if so do any of you have any inside scoops or evidence?
BYU - fewer entrance applications, or raising of ACT, SAT scores for entrance.
LDS Distribution Center - fewer customers, reduction in employees working there
Family History Center - fewer patrons
Tithing Revenues - "I realize this is a closely guarded secret but hoping someone in the pipeline has a scoop."
Relief Society Building - fewer visitors?
Fast Offerings - same issues as with tithing
Temple Workers - trouble filling in slots and shifts adequately
Beehive Clothing - fewer employees and fewer orders


   


Posted: 08 April 2016 09:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Whitesalamander, those are wonderful questions! I would very much like to know some of the hard data regarding LDS, Inc.
 
Although I have very little say in how the tides shift, I still like watching and learning. In the case of LDS, Inc., I also care how things turn out. It's something like being a voter in Utah during the general elections: my vote won't count at all because Utah is so lopsided in favor of Republican candidates. But I still cast my one vote and I still care how it turns out.
 
Just for clarity: I hope that the influence of LDS, Inc., is now or will soon be declining. I believe that the LDS church has been an overall harmful influence on humanity, hampering societal improvements and shared morality.


   


Posted: 08 April 2016 09:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Posted: 08 April 2016 10:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
peace out
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Well, I don't attend anymore so that is one
 
 
The fact that they report 3x the members they have attending is a significant indicator.
The way the report the numbers in as obscure a manor as possible is also a clue.
If you look on Mormon stories there is an interview a while back where a guy in the know was interviewed by John D. and he said they had to increase their resignation letters departments staffing significantly to deal with the volume of work.  


   


Posted: 08 April 2016 11:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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peace out:
Well, I don't attend anymore so that is one
 

The fact that they report 3x the members they have attending is a significant indicator.
The way the report the numbers in as obscure a manor as possible is also a clue.
If you look on Mormon stories there is an interview a while back where a guy in the know was interviewed by John D. and he said they had to increase their resignation letters departments staffing significantly to deal with the volume of work.  
 
Well now, that makes me all warm inside! That's the sort of thing that I like to hear.
 
There are so many Mormons whom I adore, good-hearted people doing their best and trying to make the world a better place. I love the people. There are even parts of the organization that I admire, such as how quickly they can assemble and motivate a work crew when an emergency hits or how meals can be provided to families going through crisis. The moral guidance from the upper tiers and the insistence on obedience, by contrast, are just plain ugly.


   


Posted: 08 April 2016 05:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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They lowered the AGE limit of missionaries to keep the kids in the fold longer and to continue ingraining/mind controlling them.  The Church was seeing a big number of recent high school graduates going to College for a year or 2 and deciding not to go on a mission, because they found that life outside of the bounds of the Church is better and some were finding out the real history through college courses.
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Posted: 08 April 2016 07:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Jon Marshall:
They lowered the AGE limit of missionaries to keep the kids in the fold longer and to continue ingraining/mind controlling them.  The Church was seeing a big number of recent high school graduates going to College for a year or 2 and deciding not to go on a mission, because they found that life outside of the bounds of the Church is better and some were finding out the real history through college courses.
 
 Along with the missionary age being lowered, I'm seeing a lot more of them come home early and the majority do not return to complete their mission.  They come home for various reasons, but I think some of the physical ailments are outward expressions of inward turmoil, trying to justify what they were taught with what they have just discovered. 
Previous to the age change I believe the drop rate of RM's was around 25-30% within 5 years, maybe this number is increasing. 18 years old is just too young. I'd say it's a good thing but lives are beeing ruined along the way, but the leadership doesn't seem to care.  
 
Now to the OP.
I've noticed a marked increase in coffee shops and Sunday shoppers along the Wasatch front.  The three Starbucks shops I frequent are always crowded and have a waiting line. 
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Posted: 11 April 2016 02:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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the ward I used to attend when I was a member, split into 2 wards in 2005. last year it went back to one ward. Wonder how many other wards were "combined" over the past few years. 
 
BTW, the local members look on this as a blessing.  


   


Posted: 11 April 2016 03:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
finex
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  http://instinctmagazine.com/post/mormon-church-has-lost-1-million-members-over-gay-marriage-fight
 
"Insiders have indicated that over the last seven years the Mormon Church may have lost up to 1 million members because of all it did to end gay marriage."
 


   


Posted: 11 April 2016 09:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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And, a bit frightening, there is a "Mormon Transhumanist assocition"
 
In case, it could show true colors of that sect...


   


Posted: 11 April 2016 10:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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Although the disclaimer states it is NOT and offical website of the Chuch, I thought this page was interesting. http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/statistics/ 
 
Utah, Idaho and Arizona contain more than 1/2 the wards in the USA. With this critical mass, I can see how the church could have and argue an "incline" in a geographical region.
 
Of the 419 missions only 124 are in the USA. In terms of market segmentation and resources deployed for marketing purposes, does the church believe their target market is inside the United States?
 
None of the currently announced temples are in the United States
 
Temples currently under construction or renovation in the United States, majority are in predominately Mormon areas. Possibly filling an existing market
 
Back in November I drove through Star Valley  Wyoming and saw the new temple underconstruction. A temple is not a temple is not a temple in terms of size and cost. 150 operating temples became anti-climatic after seeing a building the looks as if it was vandalized with a shrinking machine.
 
Maybe when talking about the church's decline we should be looking at Sears and Kmart. They can try new things like changing the facade but at the end of the day when one enters and there exist inventory and customer services problems; systemic problems can only be ingnored for so long before the equity is drained from the company.  One could invest and build new stores in low income neighboorhoods, but when they attempt to sell products that the community does not need or want, store closure is inevidable.
 
I hope is offends no one: The Mormon Church just might be the Kmart of churches  
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Posted: 11 April 2016 12:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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Celestial Wedgie
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WinstonSmith:
Although the disclaimer states it is NOT and offical website of the Chuch, I thought this page was interesting. http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/statistics/ 
 
Utah, Idaho and Arizona contain more than 1/2 the wards in the USA. With this critical mass, I can see how the church could have and argue an "incline" in a geographical region.
 
Of the 419 missions only 124 are in the USA. In terms of market segmentation and resources deployed for marketing purposes, does the church believe their target market is inside the United States?
 
None of the currently announced temples are in the United States
 
Temples currently under construction or renovation in the United States, majority are in predominately Mormon areas. Possibly filling an existing market
 
Back in November I drove through Star Valley  Wyoming and saw the new temple underconstruction. A temple is not a temple is not a temple in terms of size and cost. 150 operating temples became anti-climatic after seeing a building the looks as if it was vandalized with a shrinking machine.
 
Maybe when talking about the church's decline we should be looking at Sears and Kmart. They can try new things like changing the facade but at the end of the day when one enters and there exist inventory and customer services problems; systemic problems can only be ingnored for so long before the equity is drained from the company.  One could invest and build new stores in low income neighboorhoods, but when they attempt to sell products that the community does not need or want, store closure is inevidable.
 
I hope is offends no one: The Mormon Church just might be the Kmart of churches  
YES, this! It fits so well! Thanks. (I'll be quoting you in future conversations.)
 


   


Posted: 12 April 2016 05:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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The church on their "familysearch.org" website stopped allowing anyone to download Personal Ancestral File program, but have a  few "links" for those who do.
 
They also allow odd people to mess with genealogical information of previously uploaded "correct" information of members, thereby having huge mistakes deliberately added to family trees.
 
They no longer really support or care about genealogy, obviously....when years ago, they were rabid about "documentation" of records.
 
So most of the "temple ready" names really aren't correctly being sealed.  
 
Guess they expect Ancestry's "DNA" to sort it all out... 
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Posted: 12 April 2016 10:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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Firing all the janitorial staff and making the members clean the toilets 

   


Posted: 12 April 2016 11:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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I live in the moridor and I'm surprised at the number of young bishops that are getting called. It seemed like you had to be pretty well established with various callings, before you got the big ones. Not so much anymore. 

   


Posted: 13 April 2016 04:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
former victim
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The most obvious one that I completely over looked earlier, was ME! I'm out for good.....and for myself, that counts the most!! 

   


Posted: 13 April 2016 02:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
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former victim:
The most obvious one that I completely over looked earlier, was ME! I'm out for good.....and for myself, that counts the most!!
 
 Hey, great observation! I completely missed that little factoid about my own life.
 
      


   


            
 
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The Several Facets of Truth  
Posted: 11 April 2016 07:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Denker
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All who visit this forum are struggling with truth in one way or another.  The recent post of eventhorizon titled "Help", is a good example.  Spiritual truth cannot be defined by a few simple words or phrases.  Through recent years of deep meditation, contemplation, reflection, and deliberation I have finally reasoned out an understanding of the truth concept which I am convinced is a correct understanding.  For the cause of truth then, I throw in my "two-cents worth".
 
One important facet of truth is happiness, the fulfilling, sublime, and enduring kind.  
He who has found this happiness I believe has found truth, his truth.  The truly fulfilled person has it all.  This also means that spiritual truth can be relative.  That is to say what may be totally fulfilling for one person may be totally UNfulfilling for another (e.g. religious affiliation).
 
Spiritual truth has to be right.  By this I mean morally right.  I have reasoned right to be defined by the physical and emotional well-being of self and others in proportion to the level of well-being and the number of people involved.  Here again, truth (right) can be relative according to circumstance.  Example: it is more right for a war prisoner to lie (normally a bad thing) and risk his own well-being (torture) in order to save a company of fellow soldiers than it is for him to tell the truth and preserve his own well-being while possibly sacrificing the well-being of his company.  Another example: it is more right for a church member with dissenting religious views to hold onto the good things yet keep his dissenting opinions to himself and only express them under a code name in a forum such as this than to express them openly and lose the harmony and support of his TBM family.  In the former case all can remain winners (generally speaking).  In the latter case, everyone loses!
 
Truth is reason.  Reason is by far the single most effective and reliable tool for discerning truth.  My favorite example of a false revelation is DC 132.  What thinking Christian would ever believe that our Lord and Savior would destroy a faithful wife for refusing to allow her husband to take on more wives?
 
And finally, truth is the freedom of agency.  We have no control over how others may decide to treat us, but we each have great control over how we choose to treat others (and ourself as well).  We can in large part control our own destiny. We must look to a higher law that transcends all man-made laws and institutions, the law of reason and morality, that applies to all peoples and to which all people are bound.  This is a celestial law, the law of God, the truth unto which Christ came into the world to bear witness (John 18:37).  This is the truth I have come to understand and pledge myself to follow.     


   


Posted: 11 April 2016 12:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
Bruce A Holt
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I'll take a stab at this.
 
I'm a very simple man. For me, truth is simple as well. It exists independent of what we think and believe about it. It is self-contained.
 
It has nothing to do with religion. That religion may find tenets of truth is mere coincidence. 
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Science is a way to call the bluff of those who only pretend to knowledge. If we’re true to its values, it can tell us when we’re being lied to. It provides a mid-course correction to our mistakes. - Carl Sagan


   


Posted: 12 April 2016 06:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Denker
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Bruce A Holt:
I'll take a stab at this.
 
I'm a very simple man. For me, truth is simple as well. It exists independent of what we think and believe about it. It is self-contained.
 
It has nothing to do with religion. That religion may find tenets of truth is mere coincidence. 
 
I believe that truth is omnipresent and has everything to do with everything.  I agree that it is self-existent, and I also think that we can come to learn its attributes as we seek it.


   


Posted: 12 April 2016 08:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Lloyd Dobler
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I'll bite.  
 
There is no truth.  The word is meaningless to me.  I don't define the world or my existence in it with that word anymore.  What use is the word truth?  What would it do for me to learn some truth about the grand master plan of life?  
 
If anything, I think it would be the reverse.  Truth does not inform our happiness but rather where we find our happiness and meaning, informs our truth.  I'm with the one and only god damn Bruce A Holt on this as I don't think its complicated.
 
Of course, I used to believe everything circumscribed into one great whole perfectly, like some master plan of truth that I just needed to align myself to......so since that did not work out to well for me...................here I am. 
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Posted: 12 April 2016 08:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Celestial Wedgie
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TRUTH: well now that's a big topic!  I also see merit in various ways of assessing things, but I'm not sure how to define truth in a way that I can defend. I do believe in empirical truth, but it can be devilishly difficult to pin down.
 
So I guess I have to admit that for me this is a bridge too far.


   


Posted: 12 April 2016 11:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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maynardg
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O Say what is truth, tis the fairest gem ...  and it goes on.  Is 2 + 2 = 4 a truth or a fact?  When I tell you that 2 + 2 = 4, I am telling you the truth or stating a fact?  Is truth an undisputable fact.  The morgbots say the the B of M is the truest book on the planet  --  yet where are the facts  --  the archaelogical remnants of the people of the B of M.  As morgbots we were taught that pinocchio joetranslated the B of M from gold plates and no one saw them until it was time yet Elder Nelson tells us that he used a stone in a hat  --  the same stone with which he couldn't even find underground treasure and then there are the pictures that show pinocchio joe and his scribe doing the translating thing with the plates in plain view of both of them(like they were holding a FHE)  --  that's not the truth I testified of on my mission  --  a distortion of the FACTS.  The morgbots say that pinocchio joesaw the father and the son, yet all of the first visions show that something is completely/seriously #$%^ed up.  The morgbots believe that P,J&J brought back the melchisedek penishood but there is only a "BTW", three others dudes in robes will bring the melchisedek penishood in D&C 13.  The morgbots believe that the tokens and shit from the holy house of creepy hugs and handshakes came from god and yet if you study the masons, you'd have to be a real village idiot not to realize that pinocchio joestole and tweaked all that shit to justify his male whoring pleasures and to teach the morgbots to keep secrets(well who wouldn't keep secrets if you had to slice your throat and disembowel yourself  --  probably scared them morgbots shitless!).  The morgbots believe that P of GP was translated by pinocchio joefrom papyri and yet we know for a fact that it is pure HORSESHIT(the only reason pinocchio joegot away with the HORSESHIT was the FACT that during his lifetime not many people could translate that HORSESHIT.  But they did stick it to him with the kinderhook plates!
I am not a complicated or intellectual person  --  so, if truth can't be explained to me "like I'm a three/five year-old(OK all you movie buffs  --  who said that line and from what movie?) then it is as useful as a screen door on a submarine(I cleaned that up for the mixed company who may be reading this)
I know for some people "truth is what I say it is"(who said that and from what movie?  And in that case truth is completely subjective and then anything goes which I believe is HORSESHIT!


   


Posted: 12 April 2016 12:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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Truth is in the eye of the beholder.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 12 April 2016 04:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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bradspencer74
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Ah truth.  I am with Lloyd.
 
There is no such thing as truth in any absolute sense.  We can observe facts and make conclusions about those facts, but they are only as applicable as the areas we can observe - or in the areas that those facts "apply."
 
Nothing can move faster than light - except those things that do (Quantum Mechanical experiments proving information transfer faster than light and effects detected before causes).
 
Matter is neither created nor destroyed - except when it is (Hawking radiation around black holes creating real matter from virtual particles)
 
To assume there is an "omnipresent truth" also assumes the onmiscient ability to observe all things.  We certainly cannot observe all things, so we cannot conclude there is an all-encompassing, universal truth about anything anywhere.  All we can say is that a set if facts is true - so far as we know. 
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“Fitness is my religion and the gym is my temple” Fitness God 3:16
The Gym is my Church.  My sweat is my prayers.  My strength is my salvation.


   


Posted: 13 April 2016 07:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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Denker
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Joined  2007-12-06
 
  
 
Lloyd Dobler:
I'll bite.  
 
There is no truth.  The word is meaningless to me.  I don't define the world or my existence in it with that word anymore.  What use is the word truth?  What would it do for me to learn some truth about the grand master plan of life?  
 
If anything, I think it would be the reverse.  Truth does not inform our happiness but rather where we find our happiness and meaning, informs our truth.  I'm with the one and only god damn Bruce A Holt on this as I don't think its complicated.
 
Of course, I used to believe everything circumscribed into one great whole perfectly, like some master plan of truth that I just needed to align myself to......so since that did not work out to well for me...................here I am. 
 
 It seems to me that you have provided another way of expressing the same belief I have about the relationship between happiness and truth which I stated in my original post, which is that he who has found his happiness has found his truth.


   


Posted: 13 April 2016 07:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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Denker
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bradspencer:
Ah truth.  I am with Lloyd.
 
There is no such thing as truth in any absolute sense.  We can observe facts and make conclusions about those facts, but they are only as applicable as the areas we can observe - or in the areas that those facts "apply."
 
Nothing can move faster than light - except those things that do (Quantum Mechanical experiments proving information transfer faster than light and effects detected before causes).
 
Matter is neither created nor destroyed - except when it is (Hawking radiation around black holes creating real matter from virtual particles)
 
To assume there is an "omnipresent truth" also assumes the onmiscient ability to observe all things.  We certainly cannot observe all things, so we cannot conclude there is an all-encompassing, universal truth about anything anywhere.  All we can say is that a set if facts is true - so far as we know. 
 
There seems to be a bit of misunderstanding here.  In my discussion of truth, I was talking about spiritual truth, not physical truth (or empirical facts, if you prefer).  Also, the existence of spiritual truth is certainly not dependent on the ability to observe it.


   


Posted: 13 April 2016 07:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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maynardg
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So, I have found happiness because I am no longer under the control of the morg because I believe in the fact that the morg is built upon the foundation of a great BIG pile of stinking HORSESHIT; therefore I have found the truth and that truth has set me free  --  allalouya and pass the mustard!
 


   


Posted: 13 April 2016 08:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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Denker
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Joined  2007-12-06
 
  
 
maynardg:
O Say what is truth, tis the fairest gem ...  and it goes on.  Is 2 + 2 = 4 a truth or a fact?  When I tell you that 2 + 2 = 4, I am telling you the truth or stating a fact?  Is truth an undisputable fact.  The morgbots say the the B of M is the truest book on the planet  --  yet where are the facts  --  the archaelogical remnants of the people of the B of M.  As morgbots we were taught that pinocchio joetranslated the B of M from gold plates and no one saw them until it was time yet Elder Nelson tells us that he used a stone in a hat  --  the same stone with which he couldn't even find underground treasure and then there are the pictures that show pinocchio joe and his scribe doing the translating thing with the plates in plain view of both of them(like they were holding a FHE)  --  that's not the truth I testified of on my mission  --  a distortion of the FACTS.  The morgbots say that pinocchio joesaw the father and the son, yet all of the first visions show that something is completely/seriously #$%^ed up.  The morgbots believe that P,J&J brought back the melchisedek penishood but there is only a "BTW", three others dudes in robes will bring the melchisedek penishood in D&C 13.  The morgbots believe that the tokens and shit from the holy house of creepy hugs and handshakes came from god and yet if you study the masons, you'd have to be a real village idiot not to realize that pinocchio joestole and tweaked all that shit to justify his male whoring pleasures and to teach the morgbots to keep secrets(well who wouldn't keep secrets if you had to slice your throat and disembowel yourself  --  probably scared them morgbots shitless!).  The morgbots believe that P of GP was translated by pinocchio joefrom papyri and yet we know for a fact that it is pure HORSESHIT(the only reason pinocchio joegot away with the HORSESHIT was the FACT that during his lifetime not many people could translate that HORSESHIT.  But they did stick it to him with the kinderhook plates!
I am not a complicated or intellectual person  --  so, if truth can't be explained to me "like I'm a three/five year-old(OK all you movie buffs  --  who said that line and from what movie?) then it is as useful as a screen door on a submarine(I cleaned that up for the mixed company who may be reading this)
I know for some people "truth is what I say it is"(who said that and from what movie?  And in that case truth is completely subjective and then anything goes which I believe is HORSESHIT!
 
 Remember, I asserted that truth is reason, and that reason is by far the most effective and reliable tool for discerning (spiritual) truth.  I am also convinced that emotion is by far the most UNreliable way to perceive truth.  I agree that you would almost have to be the "village idiot" to believe that the B of M came from gold plates that have never been proven to exist, or that the "saving" ordinances of the temple are anything but Masonic rituals.  You show that you are a thinking person as well as a passionate one, which is a good mix.  But in these troubled times of anger and confusion, what this world needs most of all is more thinking and less emotion.


   


Posted: 13 April 2016 08:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
Felix
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I enjoy these discussions; especailly the ones started by newcomers struggling with cog dis. I am no wiz like the rest of you but I'll take a swing at this one.
 
I believe absolute truth does exist as found in the laws of physics,chemistry etc.. Some of these laws we have come to understand and harness for our use and bennefit. Are not the laws of physics an example of absolute truth?
 
Perhaps the possible varible expressions of the laws of physics and chemistry that govern the universe become almost endless and inumerable with increasingly complex systems. Our lives and all life forms are evidence of these laws and truths combining in the myriad of possibilities to create complex systems such as life, all created from and operating in conformity with the laws of physics and chemistry. Life is the most complex system or expression of these laws that govern the universe and its greatest achievement.
 
Happiness is perhaps the ultimate achievement in life and as Joe stated (the object of our design) and most of what we do is spent in the persuit of it. Perhaps there are laws that govern happiness and in as much as we understand and conform to those laws, happiness will be realized.
 
We as intellegent beings have reached a point in our evolution where we can begin to understand the laws that govern the universe and to some extent our happiness. Thus we look for the relationships or causes and effects (truths) that may expalin what we experience and observe.
 
Some truths are found in religion but as Bruce Holt said  "it (truth) has nothing to do with religion. That religion may find tenents of truth is mere concidence." Or to use my own words, religion may posess truth but not necessarily originating from divine souce. Religion possesses many falsehoods as well. 


   


Posted: 13 April 2016 09:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized
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Joined  2011-01-22
 
  
 
I'm not much of a philosophical guy, so I've been following this from afar. However, I think I'll weigh in.
 
First off - if your starting point is that religion is truth, I'm out of the discussion. I reject any and all religion, including the various franchises of Christianity. This may be a very closed point-of-view, but in my experience, in my REALITY, religion has caused me (and others) too much pain. I do not reject outright the notion of a deity, but I do reject the notion of a deity who would require submission and obeisance. 
 
Second - like others have posted, I believe truth needs to be verified by observable data. Warm fuzzy feelings are proof only of warm fuzzy feelings. Anything we assign to them is subjective. When others assign meaning to them, as churches do, it is highly questionable.
 
Third - the existence of something in and of itself proves nothing except its existence. Christians will say the Bible is the proof of God, or mormons will say the BoM is proof of the church's veracity. NO, the existence of the Bible only proves the existence of a collection of manuscrupts, many of dubious or apocryphal origin. Similarly, the existence of the BoM only proves that someone wrote a book and got it published. It doesn't prove that God or Jesus are real, or that JS was a prophet. Do do that requires a warm fuzzy feeling, which the believers and adherents, or even the books themselves, will tell you that this warm feeling is proof. This, my friends, is circular reasoning, one of the most basic of all logical fallacies. "The Bible is true because the Bible tells me so!"
 
Give me cold, hard, provable facts, and let me decide for myself. If I reject the facts, no matter how uncomfortable, I am an idiot. (I'm still working on that one  )
 
 
 
Brother Krebs: Philadelphia, and Shooter.
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You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler


   


Posted: 13 April 2016 09:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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Denker
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Joined  2007-12-06
 
  
 
Felix:
I enjoy these discussions; especailly the ones started by newcomers struggling with cog dis. I am no wiz like the rest of you but I'll take a swing at this one.
 
I believe absolute truth does exist as found in the laws of physics,chemistry etc.. Some of these laws we have come to understand and harness for our use and bennefit. Are not the laws of physics an example of absolute truth?
 
Perhaps the possible varible expressions of the laws of physics and chemistry that govern the universe become almost endless and inumerable with increasingly complex systems. Our lives and all life forms are evidence of these laws and truths combining in the myriad of possibilities to create complex systems such as life, all created from and operating in conformity with the laws of physics and chemistry. Life is the most complex system or expression of these laws that govern the universe and its greatest achievement.
 
Happiness is perhaps the ultimate achievement in life and as Joe stated (the object of our design) and most of what we do is spent in the persuit of it. Perhaps there are laws that govern happiness and in as much as we understand and conform to those laws, happiness will be realized.
 
We as intellegent beings have reached a point in our evolution where we can begin to understand the laws that govern the universe and to some extent our happiness. Thus we look for the relationships or causes and effects (truths) that may expalin what we experience and observe.
 
Some truths are found in religion but as Bruce Holt said  "it (truth) has nothing to do with religion. That religion may find tenents of truth is mere concidence." Or to use my own words, religion may posess truth but not necessarily originating from divine souce. Religion possesses many falsehoods as well. 
 
 Luv this intellectual exchange!!  One question upfront though.  The statement that "some truths are found in religion but truth has nothing to do with religion" sounds like a contradiction to me, and how can (spiritual) truth have NOTHING to do with religion?  Perhaps someone can enlighten me.  
 
Glad to see your comments on the absolute law of physics and chemistry that governs the physical universe.  As with our bodies, where there is a spiritual side as well as a physical side, I believe there is a spiritual side to the universe as well as the physical side, and that there is a transcendent law that governs the spiritual universe but which is only meaningful to live, intelligent, sentient beings.  The four facets of truth I have discussed -- happiness, reason, agency, and right-- are essential core principles of this law.


   


Posted: 13 April 2016 10:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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Denker
Member
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Joined  2007-12-06
 
  
 
Matter Unorganized:
I'm not much of a philosophical guy, so I've been following this from afar. However, I think I'll weigh in.
 
First off - if your starting point is that religion is truth, I'm out of the discussion. I reject any and all religion, including the various franchises of Christianity. This may be a very closed point-of-view, but in my experience, in my REALITY, religion has caused me (and others) too much pain. I do not reject outright the notion of a deity, but I do reject the notion of a deity who would require submission and obeisance. 
 
Second - like others have posted, I believe truth needs to be verified by observable data. Warm fuzzy feelings are proof only of warm fuzzy feelings. Anything we assign to them is subjective. When others assign meaning to them, as churches do, it is highly questionable.
 
Third - the existence of something in and of itself proves nothing except its existence. Christians will say the Bible is the proof of God, or mormons will say the BoM is proof of the church's veracity. NO, the existence of the Bible only proves the existence of a collection of manuscrupts, many of dubious or apocryphal origin. Similarly, the existence of the BoM only proves that someone wrote a book and got it published. It doesn't prove that God or Jesus are real, or that JS was a prophet. Do do that requires a warm fuzzy feeling, which the believers and adherents, or even the books themselves, will tell you that this warm feeling is proof. This, my friends, is circular reasoning, one of the most basic of all logical fallacies. "The Bible is true because the Bible tells me so!"
 
Give me cold, hard, provable facts, and let me decide for myself. If I reject the facts, no matter how uncomfortable, I am an idiot. (I'm still working on that one  )
 
 
 
Brother Krebs: Philadelphia, and Shooter.
 You have just described two of the four facets of truth I discussed in my original post -- happiness and reason.  I agree that happiness is a very personal, subjective, and relative thing.  In pursuit of his happiness, a person ought to hold onto what makes him truly happy and cast aside that which makes him unhappy.  Reason alone can tell any thinking person that the B of M is only a religious novel.  I agree also that anyone who has the pure facts before him and still rejects them, goes against reason and is somewhat of an idiot, or at least a fool.
 


   


Posted: 13 April 2016 04:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
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bradspencer74
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Denker:
bradspencer:
Ah truth.  I am with Lloyd.
 
There is no such thing as truth in any absolute sense.  We can observe facts and make conclusions about those facts, but they are only as applicable as the areas we can observe - or in the areas that those facts "apply."
 
Nothing can move faster than light - except those things that do (Quantum Mechanical experiments proving information transfer faster than light and effects detected before causes).
 
Matter is neither created nor destroyed - except when it is (Hawking radiation around black holes creating real matter from virtual particles)
 
To assume there is an "omnipresent truth" also assumes the onmiscient ability to observe all things.  We certainly cannot observe all things, so we cannot conclude there is an all-encompassing, universal truth about anything anywhere.  All we can say is that a set if facts is true - so far as we know. 
 
There seems to be a bit of misunderstanding here.  In my discussion of truth, I was talking about spiritual truth, not physical truth (or empirical facts, if you prefer).  Also, the existence of spiritual truth is certainly not dependent on the ability to observe it.
 
 I gathered that you meant spiritual in the first segment, which is why I did not address it.  I do not know that it is especially pertanent to your subject, but I view "morality" from a purely non-spiritual point of view.  If fact, I do not believe that anything
spiritual in any supernatural sense exists.  Therefore, spritual truth - as I think you might be meaning in that term - does not exist.
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Otterson Is a liar.  It Is Betrayal.  
Posted: 12 April 2016 07:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
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Had I known what I know now--I would have been out decades ago.  Wonder how much they pay this jerk.
 
http://www.sltrib.com/lifestyle/faith/3769761-155/mormon-churchs-pr-boss-discusses-lds
 Signature
I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 13 April 2016 04:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
former victim
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Just another spun out veiled attempt at damage control now that the Internet is freeing up the spread of knowledge SFT. Nothing more. 

   


Posted: 13 April 2016 07:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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LostInParadise
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Otterson:
Race relations: The church's prohibition on black boys and men from being ordained to its all-male priesthood and black women from entering Mormon temples before 1978, he said, "doesn't seem to be an issue for our rapidly expanding African membership. ... It is much less significant than it has been in the United States."
 
Never mind the fact that we don't bother telling people about what the BoM says or what BY said, or how far behind the rest of American society we were regarding racism. The morg has always had more success among the uneducated.
 
On one hand, I can understand the church not wanting to include racism and polygamy in the missionary discussions, but it comes back to bite them in the @$$.
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Posted: 13 April 2016 09:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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He's a professional spinner. His response that people "don't seem to be bothered" by the mormon racist practices should be a huge red flag. 

   


Posted: 13 April 2016 09:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized
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Winyan:
He's a professional spinner. His response that people "don't seem to be bothered" by the mormon racist practices should be a huge red flag.
 
He should talk to me. I'm bothered by it. Bonus: I'm "people" too.
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Posted: 13 April 2016 07:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Morethanmo
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I call bullshit.
 Signature
__________________________________________

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
~Epicurus
__________________________________________


   


Posted: 13 April 2016 07:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Morethanmo
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It's funny how spin works in print-- http://m.deseretnews.com/article/865652045/LDS-Church-boundaries-more-expansive-than-restrictive-Michael-Otterson-says-at-UVU.html?pg=all?ref=https://www.google.com/
 Signature
__________________________________________

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
~Epicurus
__________________________________________


   


            
 
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I never got an answer  
Posted: 13 April 2016 08:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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I never got an answer to my resignation letter. How long should it take?? It's been over 60 days. Ideas? I want proof and closure!!
 Signature
__________________________________________

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
~Epicurus
__________________________________________


   


Posted: 13 April 2016 08:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Winyan
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Did you send it to the membership records dept. in Salt Lake, or to your Bishop? 

   


            
 
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One more thing for women
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2015 Conference
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Doubletree Suites
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Financial Report for 2011 to Date

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Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
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Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]



Coming up May 1’st 2016 - Kristyn Decker to lecture!
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Resignation Letter to My Family
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Post-mormon Roles
former victim

The Book of Mormon Musical comes to South Carolina!
Swearing Elder

Resignation Letter to My Family
INRETROSPECT

Resignation Letter to My Family
oneanother

Utah County CALM meetup for November
BlackSheep2

FACEBOOK INFO
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October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
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October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
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exmoinaz

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The Mormon Mask
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Missionary run ins  
Posted: 11 April 2016 02:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Last week while visiting family in Logan I ran into a younger than normal looking pair of missionaries. They asked if I was a member (Logan Utah so odds are good). My response was, "no, I'm one of those apostate return missionaries you've been warned about." The look on their face was epic. The 15 year old looking elder gathered himself and asked why I was apostate. "Because I am open about telling people that Joseph smith was a false prophet and by extension the church is not true," I said. He looked a little stunned. The other elder asked why I felt that way. At this point I started feeling bad. I asked if he was a convert or raised in the church. Both said that they were raised in it. I explained that I would love to explain it but I was on the way to a birthday party and didn't have the time. I added that their sheltered exposure to actual doctrine had not prepared them for what I would unravel before them. I actual told the kids that their testimonies weren't strong enough to hold up. 
 
I remembered red how it was on my mission that the seeds of doubt were planted in me and I hoped they would germinate in them.
 
Two days later at a different house we were packing up the car and here they come walking by again. I was expecting them to walk past since they were on the other side of the road. Nope. They crossed the road and introduced themselves and asked If I was a member. I quickly reminded them of our conversation from the other day. Then I told them that they found me again in a different place for a reason and it wasn't to save me. I challenged them (commitment pattern ) to go study the connection of Mason's and the temple.
 
maybe the seed will take. 
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Posted: 11 April 2016 03:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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DrW
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Missionaries suddenly dropped by our home the other day for the first time in years. I answered the door and told them that (NOM) DW was in Utah. They asked if they could come in and have a prayer anyway. I responded that I tried to avoid contact with the LDS Church.
 
When they asked why, I told them that it was a matter of personal integrity - that I could not, in good conscience, be associated with an organization that was founded by, and claimed to follow, an individual who had sex with 14 year old girls and other mens wives. 
 
The senior companion shot a concerned look at the junior companion, who was Hispanic and looked very uncomfortable (and for whom I felt sorry). I simply carried on and stated that I was sure that they were good and honest young men, and that as such, they would figure it out for themselves someday. They disappeared as suddenly as they had come.


   


Posted: 12 April 2016 03:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
former victim
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At a funeral, I was approached afterwards, by a ward member who insisted on welcoming me into her ward. She asked what ward I had previously been in and I replied, that although I had been in many, that I currently didn't belong to one now.
 
She quickly seized the opportunity to gain another ward member, insisting that she could immediately introduce me to the bishop of that ward, and some of the other leaders there in the room. Politely, I told her, essentially the same, that in good conscience, and because of my education, I could never be a part of this organization ever again.
 
I think I handled it quite well, considering what might have happened, had I allowed my overall anger to surface, and take over.
 
It ended well for me, and that's what counts now.


   


Posted: 12 April 2016 04:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
peace out
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Kevin 2
 
I have wanted to do something like that for a long time but I have never run into missionaries. I live in a low density area so tracting is not likely and I hear they don't do that much tracting anymore. I don't think it would be right to go hunt them down and trick them. But I would love to help some honest sole learn the truth before they are stuck in a lie.
 
personally If I get the chance I'm starting with book of Abraham.
 
 
I now have a song in my head. I want to be a missionary .... New Verse I want to teach the missionaries and teach and preach like missionaries dooo...
 
 
way to go Kevin2


   


Posted: 12 April 2016 05:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Jon Marshall
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Kevin:
Last week while visiting family in Logan I ran into a younger than normal looking pair of missionaries. They asked if I was a member (Logan Utah so odds are good). My response was, "no, I'm one of those apostate return missionaries you've been warned about." The look on their face was epic. The 15 year old looking elder gathered himself and asked why I was apostate. "Because I am open about telling people that Joseph smith was a false prophet and by extension the church is not true," I said. He looked a little stunned. The other elder asked why I felt that way. At this point I started feeling bad. I asked if he was a convert or raised in the church. Both said that they were raised in it. I explained that I would love to explain it but I was on the way to a birthday party and didn't have the time. I added that their sheltered exposure to actual doctrine had not prepared them for what I would unravel before them. I actual told the kids that their testimonies weren't strong enough to hold up. 
 
I remembered red how it was on my mission that the seeds of doubt were planted in me and I hoped they would germinate in them.
 
Two days later at a different house we were packing up the car and here they come walking by again. I was expecting them to walk past since they were on the other side of the road. Nope. They crossed the road and introduced themselves and asked If I was a member. I quickly reminded them of our conversation from the other day. Then I told them that they found me again in a different place for a reason and it wasn't to save me. I challenged them (commitment pattern ) to go study the connection of Mason's and the temple.
 
maybe the seed will take. 
 
 I saw those missionaries yesterday here in Logan as i was driving my bus route. I was thinking, man they look so young. I swear they were 15.  There has been an influx here in Logan of missionaries it seems. I see a big group daily at the Transit Center and i see a few pair of Sister missionaries as well.   Someone posted a while ago that they are sending these new young missionaries to areas with high mormon rates to keep them in the fold. I am seeing that.  Glad you planted a little seed of knowledge Kevin.
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Posted: 13 April 2016 02:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Celestial Wedgie
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I've been thinking about this thread for a while now. I realized something about myself that had been hidden from my awareness. 
 
I would like to have an interaction with missionaries that results in one of the pair having a new perspective, but my wish would not be so much to change someone's belief. Instead I would want to make a comment that relieves the distress that some missionary is experiencing, some missionary like I was 30 years ago: out in the field due to giving in, not because of conviction, filled with doubts about the church and about his own worth and judgment, tormented by the discrepancy between what he sees and what others tell him that he should see. I'd like it if somehow I made a subtle comment that let this young elder know that he's not alone, that freedom can come after his mission and when he is ready, and that it's not his credibility or integrity that is being questioned.
 
I'd feel gratified if I could relieve that variety of hidden distress by interacting warmly but genuinely with the missionaries.


   


Posted: 14 April 2016 04:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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CW, sometimes, when the situation or conditions are suitable, I just pass them a Post Mo card, and encourage them to check things out when they later have the courage or time to do so, and let it go at that, unless of course, they choose to engage in any further dialogue.


   


            
 
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My sister escaped and she’s poking the hornet nest  
Posted: 13 April 2016 07:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Morethanmo
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My sister officially declared to my parents that she's not going to church. She also told them she doesn't want her kids there either. It's a big step. 
 
Now she's being open and honest online about her disdain for the mistreatment of women and LGBT in mormonism. She's poking our conservative family hornet nest with a stick. It's fun to watch.   
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“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
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Posted: 13 April 2016 08:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Good for her! Let us know how it goes.  

   


Posted: 14 April 2016 04:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
former victim
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Sure is nice to have a little of your family on your side isn't it? Probably make a good tag team working together too.... 

   


            
 
 ‹‹ Comparison of Joseph Smith to Charles Ingalls        I never got an answer ››  
 
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My sister escaped and she's poking the hornet nest
by former victim
Missionary run ins
by former victim
I never got an answer
by Winyan
Otterson Is a liar. It Is Betrayal.
by Morethanmo
The Several Facets of Truth
by bradspencer74
Other signs of LDS decline - please add to the list
by Celestial Wedgie
Has anyone been watching "The Story of God" narrated by Morgan Freeman?
by TheDogLady
Comparison of Joseph Smith to Charles Ingalls
by TheDogLady
INTRODUCE YOURSELVES - TAG YOU'RE IT!
by Celestial Wedgie
YBU places Honor Code above safety and security of rape victims.
by WinstonSmith
What's inside
by Matter Unorganized
My story is now over on Mormon Think
by Bruce A Holt
The world has gone mad!!!
by Morethanmo
Man I've been pissed off at the morg lately...
by peace out
A Ray of Hope
by Lloyd Dobler
What else can you call it, but the GREAT MANIPULATION!
by maynardg
One more thing for women
by maynardg
You can leave the church, but the church won't leave you alone: Targeted Assaults!
by maynardg
Science vs. religion
by Celestial Wedgie
2015 statistics
by Celestial Wedgie 

   http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/42239/