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My Journey Out  
Posted: 31 March 2016 11:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
ShadowSage
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In 2010, I was set to go be a missionary. This wasn't something I particularly wanted to do. It was something I was required to do. I did it anyways, because I was honestly raised with no other alternative in mind. I did not feel ready to leave, and my parents had together prevented me from developing the skills I would need to leave on my own. Then, as the date drew nearer, and I started feeling less capable and wanting to do it less and less (The prospect terrified me, but I felt like I would die if I was kicked out and cut off, which was what my parents threatened to do should I back out) my Father started to tell me how the mission is what would prepare me for life. Once I did that, I could do anything. At the time, I worshipped him. He had been absent most of my life, but I still viewed him as a hero- this would in time turn into viewing him as a God. He had just recently started getting involved in my life- preparing me, training me, building me up ( I later realized) for a mission. He trained for a 50 mile hike with me, he went on a 35 mile hike with me, and trained too, he had me work at his office with him (My father is a Doctor, and Opthamologist) I felt like he was setting me up for a life of amazing succuess. He took me on a medical service mission to fiji, where I got to work with a dentist, a job he had been grooming me for since I was 12.
 
My mother had kept me servile and infantile- these were traits that suited her well, she is a Narcissist. She hated me initially, but later realized she could break me and mold me into her ideal servant, I was quite capable at anything she needed. I was and always have been the most reliable of my siblings, as well as the oldest. This is why I retained the hero worship of my father, despite his abuse, and why I felt like being cut off and kicked out would kill me. I have, in recent years, also learned I have Autism(DSM-V, Aspergers by DSM-IV). This further compounded my issues.
 
Here is where everything took a turn for the worse. The Temple. I didn't want to go. It felt way too constricting, and I had been denied any personal freedom my whole life. Everything I had and did was first approved of by my parents. My wishes were also subordinate to theirs at all times. I had been contemplating suicide since I was a small child- this would only grow worse, as time went on. After my mission, I later learned I had been depressed my whole life. My parents were a terrible combination- my mother was cruel and tyrannical, only my father able to check her. Which he often failed to do. My Father was manic-depressive, from an abusive home. I lived in fear of him my whole childhood, and life, alternating with hero worship- I had learned early on that happy parents meant safety. Unhappy parents meant fear, misery, torment, often physical pain, and the loss of the one solace I had- Video Games. I suspect this started early. Though I have not yet recalled the memory, or tracked down any details, I was told often by my Father (Who HATED CPS) about how they have been called on him and his wife many times, including one time I went to the hosptial with a broken skull. My parents say it was a heavy vaccume falling on my head when I was a child that did it- but I wonder, as I later learned that my Father had his skull fractured by his father. He came from an abusive environment himself.
 
I was kept out of the medical system by my parents as much as possible- My father was a doctor, so he took care of all our health problems himself. I do not know if this was due to his controlling nature, or due to his realization that other doctors might get him in trouble. I have no memory of any further trauma that would merit a call to CPS, but I honestly don't recall much of my childhood, either. Even writing this much is painful, and a struggle. Anyways, thanks to being kept out of the medical system (Other than doctors he personally reccomended when I needed to go on my mission, who were also mormon and only interested in the basic checks to get me off, and otherwise personal friends of his) I found it difficult to be treated for depression, or the anxiety I later developed, due to a lack of medical resources. 
 
My parents had crafted an entire world, one where they were God and Goddess.
 
When I was being told about the prep for mission, no one told me about the temple being an absolute requirment. It was portrayed as an option. I did not want to go, I didn't want to lose my freedom forever. at this point, there was no other option, They indoctrinated me very well (Both are skilled manipulators) to believe only misery and death awaited leaving the church.
 
I was schedualed to go to the temple last minute. It wasn't until then I learned that I would be required to go to the temple. All my father told me going in was that I wasn't promising anything new, so I had nothing to worry about, and that I was going to get a more direct line to Yaeh and Jesus as a result- that my prayers would be answered better, and I would gain the nessecary protection from the Devil.
 
Then, next thing I know, I'm in a room, told I have to agree to every promise they ask of me, or leave now- which I already knew I couldn't. Then, I found out I couldn't laugh loudly, couldn't have sex, couldn't even keep my own stuff- I had to give the church absolute control over me, and if I didn't I would be in the power of the devil. And I started wearing really uncomfortable underwear. within 2 weeks, maybe less, I was off to the MTC.
 
My mission was terrible. I learned a lot, and had great times, and pushed myself to lose weight- something that only I had been succuessful at in my family. (My mother had shamed me for being fat my whole life, my father for being unathletic.) I fought frequently with companions, I was in constant pain, mental, physical, emotional, and spiritual. I often felt that my soul was being crushed under the pressure. I was often afraid I'd be sent home dishonerably. I often considered breaking my leg or something to get out, but fear of my parents kept me from doing that- they would know, and then they would kick me out on the streets, with a broken leg at that.
 
I made it, but the suicidal thoughts only got worse as it went on. I often prayed someone would kill me so I could die, be exalted, and be done worrying.
 
I was deeply bothered by how much we had to hide from people too. How unethichal we were. We kept tracking down less active and inactive people and even people who wanted no contact- and we were forbidden to make a do not contact list.
 
What kept me going was the anticipation of going to the palmyra temple. My father had been telling me that my fears over the temple were unnessecary, that I should be excited to go, because as I went more it would make more sense. I wanted a replica BoM, wanted to see where it all started... A storm last minuted denied that, along with my leader not listening to my Father, instead of sending me on the trip I could go on, I missed it entirely. My  belief in revalation began to falter at that... or at least the revelation of priesthood leaders.
 
I went home, and within a week I was up at BYUI, where things started ok, but quickly sucked. I was deeply tired from my mission, I was homesick badly, and now I'm in this new place and I was having a terrible time dating. I would get so depressed up there, so anxious, I would sleep all day, living off of applesauce and toast. That was all I could stomach. the suicidal ideation got stronger and stronger.
 
I was noticing more, and more, as well, that something was wrong in the church. First on my mission, then at BYUI, I noticed that the story I was sold about things didn't match reality. Above all, despite us claiming to be the church of Jesus Christ, no one acted like him. I had always had a feeling there was something wrong with mainstream mormons. But I couldn't place my finger on it.
 
My grades started slipping, I came home from BYUI and worked with my father. I went to SNAFU, an anime convention in Reno that year while working with my Father again ( A progressively miserable situation, his partner liked me more, because my father needed me to move fast and perfect, his partner just wanted customer service. I love people- customer service was and is my specialty. there were patients who had a consistently terrible time seeing my father, who absolutely LOVED me. my fathers partner (Who he hates) loved me, because I made all his patients feel cared about and loved. 
 
SNAFU was the best I'd felt in ages- I wound up transferring from BYUI to UNR to stay away from the church, since I felt so much better. I was living at home, but my parents were increasingly withdrawing their support, as I began drifting away from the church. I met a wonderfully supportive partner who stayed with me and supported me, encouraging me to research everything. I also had sex the first time. My father started manipulating me to reject her. he caused me such terrible tension as a result.
 
At UNR, I started doing research on material that was more objective in nature- I had an english class where we were only doing one research paper the entire semester, and I made it about my book. I still plan to write it- I plan to call it "The Dichotomy of Mormonism" at this point. 
 
I came across the CES letter. I checked sources. I read the debunking, and the debunking of the debunking.  A few months later, in my next semester, around general conference, I told my father I no longer believed in the church. He tore me down so terribly. He broke my mind. He called me every name in the books, and he threatened to disown me if I told any member of my family, cut me off, and kick me out. That still felt like a death threat to me, with how I was raised and how deep in a hole I was. The same also went for becoming an enemy of the church.
 
After that point, my mind broke down, I couldn't go to school or study without experiencing migraines, intesnse stress, and suicidal thoughts. All Joy and pleasure left living. All coping mechanisms failed- and so did every new one I tried. I stayed like this a year, living in increasing torment and pain... My parents forced me to work, even though I could barely do anything. Even being professionally diagnosed with depression, they didn't care. My father called it all manipulative bullshit- now I felt guilty for being depressed and suicidal. He again threatened to kick me out and cut me off if I EVER said anything about being suicidal or depressed again, if he ever heard of it.
 
My parents also threatened to disown me if I ever went to therapy. I could have gone to the free therapy at UNR... but they didn't want that because they worried it could be public or govermentally accessed. They wouldn't pay for private, and I couldn't make enough money working at quiznos.
 
My manager at quiznos abused me like my mom did. I was fired when I snapped- later rehired, with an even worse manager, who caused me panic attacks the 3rd day and emotionally abused me, ultimately follwing me back when I told her I needed a minute alone to calm down to continue interrogating me. I quit this time.
 
This January, I wound up in a mental hospital, suffering a dissasociative break. That was even worse- but I put on a smile, made everyone feel happy, and got out. The mental hospital was abusive- the staff spit in patients food for requesting grilled cheese (Because that's so terrible to make) They treated us like animals, we couldn't hug, we were woken up early while deep asleep to draw blood and take our vitals so we couldn't resist if we wanted to, and the first 2 guys I met made me feel suicidal, terrible, and treated me like I was crazy. I wasn't, I just needed time to recover.
 
A few months later, I wound up resigning from the church officially. They still haven't honored my resignation (I used the form letter from mormonnomore.com) and they kept contacting me.
 
So now, I'm staying with a friend, I have no home, no job, I'm trying to get into porn. I have no money, I'm in debt from my parents depriving me of resources and forcing me to use my credit card when I didn't want to. I'm feeling better, and more optimistic- I did get into porn, I just need to figure out how to survive until I start making money.
 
That is my exit story.
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I choose to believe in humanity. I choose to believe in our vast potential. I refuse to accept that we are fundamentally flawed, that we could have been so much more but aren’t. I believe we simply are. Any “fundamental flaw” or “original sin” that occurs is purely the result of forces that act to limit human potential in order to gain control. In fact that idea in and of itself is the root of how they manipulate and control.
It is the lie of lies.


   


Posted: 31 March 2016 01:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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Thanks so much for sharing...very brave.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 31 March 2016 01:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Celestial Wedgie
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Shadowsage, your exit story is painfully sad. I'm so sorry for the ways that your parents and the church conspired to deprive you of a sense of personal worth. It's such an ugly irony: those who should be best at teaching your worth instead put their energies into stripping away anything but submission.
 
Keep working, stay out of porn, don't listen to your parents, and keep us posted.


   


Posted: 31 March 2016 03:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Elder OldDog
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Are your siblings in the same danger?
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Posted: 31 March 2016 03:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Kevin2
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Your story was tough to read. I'm sure it was harder to write. Thank you for being so vulnerable. This is a safe place to share your feelings and thoughts. It's also full of people who want to help you. Even if the best we can do is listen. I've found it therapeutic for me and I hope you do too.
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“And now that you don’t have to be perfect, you can be good.” -John Steinbeck


   


Posted: 31 March 2016 04:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Winyan
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Celestial Wedgie:
Shadowsage, your exit story is painfully sad. I'm so sorry for the ways that your parents and the church conspired to deprive you of a sense of personal worth. It's such an ugly irony: those who should be best at teaching your worth instead put their energies into stripping away anything but submission.
 
Keep working, stay out of porn, don't listen to your parents, and keep us posted.
 
 I echo this. Stay in the light.
 
There is help out there. Have you gone to the state? You could try Catholic Family Services. They have programs to help people start over. Also the Salvation Army. There are state funds available to help people learn a new trade. There is disability if you can't work.
 
Congratulations on getting out of mormonism.  Please keep letting us know how you're doing. 


   


Posted: 31 March 2016 06:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
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Dear Shadow Sage,
 
I am so, so sorry for all you have suffered.  There is no excuse.  I have been thinking tonight about how what the church does to people that is the most damaging, in my opinion,  is that it takes away their natural sense of what is right and what is wrong.  Then...they can make a person do what they want.  Mormonism controls them. Your parents are mentally ill.  They are different from you, my dear, you have your sense of right and wrong--through it all.  Great job--especially after what you have been through!  
 
Please do not go into porn.  I have never been around it but I think I have enough of a sense of right and wrong that I see that it is much like the church--a soul-eating machine.  I believe it will steal your sense of self-worth and cause you to hate yourself.  Please love and respect and cherish yourself.  Look how strong you are!  Look what you have been though are still such a good person.  There has to be an agency for women that will help you--maybe one for abused women.  You are an abused woman.  You have been abused by crazy parents and by a dangerous cult.  Find help.  Keep your honor!  Thanks for sharing and keep us informed.  Catholic Charities and Salvation Army are good ideas.
 
Sending you {{Hugs and Good Energy}}  You can do this!  
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 01 April 2016 05:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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bradspencer74
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Shadow Sage,
 
First, I'm very sorry to hear about your exit from the Church. Those longtimers here will tell you I rarely post that much anymore, but when I read this I just had to respond.
 
You and I share a few commonalities - not just in the attitude of our parents and the time we came away from the Church just after a mission, but being the oldest, your mother and mine have the same attitudes in life, also that you and I share the commonality of ASD, though my particular case is rather mild, and I suspect from your writing style that you have a bit more severity than mine.
 
Be that as I may, I've been exactly where you are.  Were it not for 3 fraternity brothers who helped me, I would have been homeless, exactly the way my mother intended for me to be.  I sank into a really deep financial hole - and all the uncertainlty that you and I do not deal with very well from the ASD - it can make you very despondant.  
 
I hate to trot out a phrase, but it does get better.  At this point I am 17 years since my parents and I had it out.  There were years of really bad times.  BUT - I'm here now, stable (as much as anyone can be) and able to live a FULL and productiive life.  If I can do this, certainly you can.  You are far from alone.
 
As you said you were in University, I would encourage you will everything you possibly can do to go to your counseling center and ask for help.  I also know that there are several of us in the mental health professions on the postmo who can help point you in the right direction in a way to find providers at minimal cost, if you want to avoid those good, but religious, agencies others have mensioned.  Not all of us are like what you experienced inside the mental health facility I promise you that.  And there is so much that you parents did to you that you can gain great benefit in helping to resolve with the help of someone.  (And I hope that you realize that even on the Mormon end of things, you parents were, and please forgive me I mean no offense, on the nutty side of Mormonism and that is saying a lot.)
 
I do not know whether you are a male or female (you said you had found a partner in a girl and I know that ASD tends to occur more in males than females, and the pressures of a mission tend to happen to males more than females in the Church.  So, I proceeded on the assumption that you are a male, though it doesn't really matter.  This is just as applicable to ladies as it is to men).  
 
Be that as it may, I do know a few men in the porn industry.  I have nothing at all against them or their choice in making a living, and I am very proud to count them as my friends.  It is a way to make a living, BUT it is not for most people, and IMHO, that includes you.  In fact, as a male in the industry, it can be far more difficult and you face far more challenges than the females do (not to deminish what they face in the slightest).  
 
I do not share SF&T's view of it per se, I suppose because I have more contact with it than the average person from the perspective of the male performers - but I can tell you this, which comes directly from my friends, and these challenges you would face as either a guy or a girl.  
 
It is a very intoxicating world.  The money that can be had is truly vast.  One friend I have makes more per month just in royalties from old videos alone than I make in my professional job with a graduate degree.  The availability and use of recreational drugs is beyond anything an LDS upbringing could ever have prepared you for (I know of only one of my friends in the industry who has not had to deal with drug addiction because of what happens in the industry.  And it can start so innocently - one friend in the industry said his started when the porn company paid for dental work and he was using the prescription meds from the dentist.  It lead to cocaine and alcohol.)  The accolades you will start to receive in the industry - especially when you have had so very little from your parents and family  -  can be most intoxicating.  You can start to value yourself strictly upon what happens in that industry - and that is a terrible falsehood.  People will start to view you purely as a sex object - with nothing at all beyond that, no meaning, no purpose, nothing but what they see on the screen.  And you are so much more than that.  Everyone in that industry is.  All of it together can lead you down a terrible path, if you are not prepared for it so that you can avoid it.  And, I hate to say it, but you're not prepared for what you will face, at least from your posting.  You are in a very vulnerable position right now.  It can seem like that sort of thinig is the only avenue open to you.  But, you MUST know what you are getting into, you MUST have a firm grasp of where you are in life, and what the consequences of making that choice will have on your future.  
 
A very close friend, one of my bodybuilding coaches,  - a straight man with a wife of 20+ years and a wife and son - made the choice to enter into it when he was 20 after he was booted from the Marine Corps due to injury.  Now, at 43, he still cannot be hired by most companies when they google search him and his porn past comes up.  He is in business for himself to make a living for that reason.  (He also has had to deal with cocaine and meth addictions that came as a result of what he was exposed to in the industry.) And he is far from alone.  You MUST walk into that decision with your eyes wide open, and without the hole in your life that you have right now from these recent events.  
 
I am sending you my every best wish and a big hug.  You have made it this far, when so many others would not have.  That show far more courage than I think you know.  You have it in you to see this through to the other side.  I think I can speak for all of us on postmo that if there is something we can do to help you that is within our power, we certainly will.  That is why this place is here.
 
Brad 
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“Fitness is my religion and the gym is my temple” Fitness God 3:16
The Gym is my Church.  My sweat is my prayers.  My strength is my salvation.


   


            
 
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2015 Conference
"LEAVING A LEGACY"
October 16-18
Doubletree Suites
SLC, Utah




















 


Financial Report for 2011 to Date

Financial Report for 2010 to Date

Financial Report for 2009

Twin Falls Newspaper Article

Twin Falls Billboard

Financial Report for 2009 to Date




The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]

Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]

Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]



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The Causal Link Between Easter and Religion’s Proven Ineptitude in Dealing With Sexual Offenders  
Posted: 27 March 2016 03:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Born Free
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Does that sound like a long bow to draw?
Let me explain why not.
 


The central claim around the Christian Easter is that Christ's death and resurrection overcame death, and that in his 'sacrificial offering' he took upon his shoulders the sins of all mankind who would repent, enabling them to return to God the Father after life.
That is the central deal in Christianity.
No disputes so far?
 
So what is the causal link to inept management of paedophiles?
 
Sexual 'offenders', IF detected by religious leaders, and IF brought to account for their activity will as part of that process confront the 'repentence/forgiveness' stage. Ideally it is essential before members can be once again in full fellowship in their religious community.
Now I hasten to add, that in too many cases, the above 'ideal' process gets shortcircuited, or shortshifted in various ways, but for the sake of my central point, let's stick with the ideal textbook process.
Now it follows that there is no, let me repeat NO evidence that the religious 'repent and seek forgiveness' process works in 'treating' paedophiles. It is a process that flies in the face of the deeply self-reinforcing nature of sexual activity, which psychology acknowledges as seriously challenging to treat successfully. (Many people, encouraged by popular TV dramas, believe sexual offenders are totally untreatable, whereas over 50% do respond to best-practice treatment.)
But Christian faiths embrace the idea that through some magical process, compliments of JC's redemptive sacrifice, profound change can happen, that 'changes the hearts' of serious offenders.
And I don't doubt that some offenders seriously desire change and even believe it has happened: such is the 'power of faith'. But the evidence shows that when serious stress returns to their life, the fantasies start being indulged as a self-medicating strategy, which escalate until eventually a repeat acting out against a victim transpires.
But their self-delusion is encouraged by lay Church leaders, who have no training or qualifications whatsoever to make informed judgement calls on such serious matters. These men have been encouraged to believe that the simple act of being called as a Bishop, invites its own magic, in which any half baked idea that crosses their mind, is happily confused with inspiration from God.
 
But look again at the absolutely central belief within Christian belief, that enables this toxic process; the belief that through Christ's redemptive (Easter) sacrifice, healing magic happens in (mainly) men's hearts, and they are changed to not 'sin' again.
On that central belief, untreated sexual offenders are put through superficial, disproven processes to supposedly rectify serious behavioural problems, and then they are let loose back into communities. Even worse, some change communities, without their history following them.
But these are not just ordinary healthily sceptical and well informed communities. These are Mormon religious communities where trust levels run on high, merely on the basis of a shared faith membership. And as if that is not sufficient, these are communities where sexual ignorance and naivety run pretty high, and people not untypically overlook problematic behaviour right under their noses until it is too late.
So when a serious offending issue surfaces, and communities are jolted into reality, even where they make serious attempts to dial up safeguards, I'd argue they overlook this most seriously deficient core concept that sits right at the centre of their faith, namely that the 'redemptive power of Jesus Christ' has some magical powers to make these people safe again, when the evidence is totally lacking.
Wake up peeps, smell the Easter Egg. It has as much healing power to fix paedophiles as JC's Easter jaunt about 2000 years ago.
Daryl
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‘Our life is the creation of our minds, and we do much of that creating in metaphor…. With the wrong metaphor we are deluded; with no metaphor we are blind. ’ Jonathan Haidt
‘and I am responsible for the metaphors that populate my mind.’ Daryl


   


Posted: 27 March 2016 05:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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That was an amazing and extremely informative post Daryl.  It makes a whole lot of sense.  It also explains why a lot of tithing dollars go to victims of abusers, whom the church thought were cured/repented.  How can they be so dumb?  Thank you!
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 27 March 2016 05:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Strong Free & Thankful:
That was an amazing and extremely informative post Daryl.  It makes a whole lot of sense.  It also explains why a lot of tithing dollars go to victims of abusers, whom the church thought were cured/repented.  How can they be so dumb?  Thank you!
 
I'd argue that religions are massively resistant to embracing this 'inconvenient truth', because it calls into doubt their central USP (claimed unique selling proposition).
The best they can do is just divert their vision from the core religious impotency, and direct offenders into legal and psychiatric processes, at least knowing that's where any chance of real treatment lies.
But how long can they do that without getting credibility creep?

If psychology offers a better cure there, why not in dealing with marriage problems, where the Bishop is frankly, every bit as inept. What then of his credibility on issues like masturbation, on which psychology has a very different stance?
But this also leaves the problem of the backend, if a member formerly convicted of an offence, and treated, returns to community. What does a realistic community response look like; one not tainted by naive, magical thinking?
Daryl
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‘Our life is the creation of our minds, and we do much of that creating in metaphor…. With the wrong metaphor we are deluded; with no metaphor we are blind. ’ Jonathan Haidt
‘and I am responsible for the metaphors that populate my mind.’ Daryl


   


Posted: 28 March 2016 05:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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One of the things which bothers me about this whole atonement for sex offenders problem is that the side of the victim is rarely addressed by the church. Perhaps that is because by addressing the victims, the church would have to admit that there is a  problem to begin with. All we ever hear about the victims is the church throwing money at the problem: either hush money or out-of-court settlements. Victims are encouraged to forgive the perpetrators, but again it begins and ends with the magical power of the atonement. They're told "The atonement will make it all better (and here's some money so you won't feel so bad)."
 
But no non-LDS counseling is offered, it's always through the church social services departmemt, and these are mostly folks who got their degree from BYU where the priesthood is more valid than the DSM. Church-trained psychologists and counselors aren't much better than bishops  because none of them specialize or have specialized training unless they got it on their own.
 
(Side bar - the ex and I went to a church trained counselor when our marriage was falling apart. His guidance was no different from what we had received from our bishop. "Here's some scriptures to read, a conference talk and an Ensign article. Now go read them together and pray about it." The only difference was the $100* he charged us for each visit.)
 
 
 
*I can't remember the actual amount - this was about 25 years ago.
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Posted: 28 March 2016 07:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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I have had first hand experience in dealing with the Church and how they handle sexual offenses.
 
I was 9 years old. I was molested and physically assaulted by 2 older boys in the Ward I grew up in.  This happened a few times.  I did not tell anyone. I think one of the older lady neighbors saw it happening and told the Bishop and their parents. I was pulled into the Bishops office on Sunday at age 9 without my parents and said that the boys were just horsing around and that it was just "play" .  My parents were never told. I held it in for years.  
 
One of the boys apologized years later.  He said he felt pressure from the other boy to do it, and i was just an easy target.  I forgave him.
 
The other one has never so much as uttered a sorry. I don't even think he remembers it or just plays if off as he was told as "play".
 
The Leaders in my ward wanted to keep it hush hush. 
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Posted: 31 March 2016 06:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Jon Marshall:
I have had first hand experience in dealing with the Church and how they handle sexual offenses.
 
I was 9 years old. I was molested and physically assaulted by 2 older boys in the Ward I grew up in.  This happened a few times.  I did not tell anyone. I think one of the older lady neighbors saw it happening and told the Bishop and their parents. I was pulled into the Bishops office on Sunday at age 9 without my parents and said that the boys were just horsing around and that it was just "play" .  My parents were never told. I held it in for years.  
 
One of the boys apologized years later.  He said he felt pressure from the other boy to do it, and i was just an easy target.  I forgave him.
 
The other one has never so much as uttered a sorry. I don't even think he remembers it or just plays if off as he was told as "play".
 
The Leaders in my ward wanted to keep it hush hush. 
 I am so sorry Jon.  Religions, many times, are havens for sexual abuse.  I think we do not teach our young how damaging sexual abuse can be for them and for those they might abuse.  As parents, especially religious ones, we do not think our children are capable of this.  Our children pay the price.  The mormon church only cares about itself and that includes the lay who protect it.  Individuals are nothing compared to keeping the reputation of the Larwd's church perfect.  Stinks!
 
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 01 April 2016 06:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Strong Free & Thankful:
Jon Marshall:
I have had first hand experience in dealing with the Church and how they handle sexual offenses.
 
I was 9 years old. I was molested and physically assaulted by 2 older boys in the Ward I grew up in.  This happened a few times.  I did not tell anyone. I think one of the older lady neighbors saw it happening and told the Bishop and their parents. I was pulled into the Bishops office on Sunday at age 9 without my parents and said that the boys were just horsing around and that it was just "play" .  My parents were never told. I held it in for years.  
 
One of the boys apologized years later.  He said he felt pressure from the other boy to do it, and i was just an easy target.  I forgave him.
 
The other one has never so much as uttered a sorry. I don't even think he remembers it or just plays if off as he was told as "play".
 
The Leaders in my ward wanted to keep it hush hush. 
 I am so sorry Jon.  Religions, many times, are havens for sexual abuse.  I think we do not teach our young how damaging sexual abuse can be for them and for those they might abuse.  As parents, especially religious ones, we do not think our children are capable of this.  Our children pay the price.  The mormon church only cares about itself and that includes the lay who protect it.  Individuals are nothing compared to keeping the reputation of the Larwd's church perfect.  Stinks!
 
 
What i feel the Church needs to do, is to stop making SEX sound so industrial and dirty. The Little Factory talk, the constant teaching of you have to be covered, only one ear ring, modesty is the best policy, all boys are hormonal sexual deviants until for some miracle after their mission they are great.  
 
Parents need to be open to their kids and not let the Church rule on what they can and can not teach in the house. 
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Making peace with my mormon past…. or not.  
Posted: 28 March 2016 10:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Recently someone in another thread asked why don't we just get over it and get on with our lives? This is something that occasionally comes up here, and something which gives me pause from time to time. This article showed up on my facebook feed today and it really got me to thinking. In particular, this paragraph:

"I wish my fellow ex-Mormons (or former Mormons, or disaffected, or whatever) would realize that they are only mirroring the Mormonism they grew up with and lived with for so many years. The same black-and-white mentality unfolds, only as if we’ve suddenly been transported to bizarro world. Apologists go from heroes to villains, history goes from faith-promoting to faith-destructing, the Book of Mormon goes from proving the church is true to proving it’s false, Church leaders, both historic and modern, go from being the greatest men on earth to some of the most evil, the temple goes from beautiful to sinister, Joseph Smith goes from prophet to pedophile, the church goes from selfless charity to money-hoarding corporation, Mormons go from being the most enlightened people on earth to the most sheltered. On and on and on it goes. Instead of breaking out of the narrative the church wrote for us, we just flip the switch and black becomes white and up becomes down, but the story is identical..."
Am I just reflecting an opposite version of mormonism? Is this a function of the black-and-white thinking I was raised with? Why do I keep coming back to postmormon.org? I know we all have our reasons for being here and the reasons are as varied as the people here, but for me there's an underlying issue. My association with mormonism embarrasses me, frankly. It's the reason I want no funeral, because I don't want any of my friends or associates to know that I was in any way associated with this stupid cult. I almost walked out of a polygraph exam (it was for top-secret government clearance where I work - not as exciting as it sounds) because I had to tell the guy about my religious past. There are things I don't comment on on my facebook feed, not because it would out me to my family and friends, but because I don't want others to know that I'm somehow connected to mormonism. I sometimes go to great lengths to hide my background.
 
I wish I could make peace with my past, but at this time I just can't. I suppose it's tough still having family in the church, but even when I'm in a non-church environment, I can't admit to ever belonging to the church. I envy the author's perspective. I'm working towards it, but right now there are too many hurdles in my way.
 
Do any of you deal with this? How do you handle it?
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Posted: 28 March 2016 10:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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IMVHO, I believe those individuals who say  --  get over it and get on with your life  --  were not dedicated/rabid TBMs.  I bet they dwelt on the edges of morgmania and gave lipservice to the morg.  I was in the morg for 57 years  --  trying do the "morg laundry list" + holding multiple callings because we lived in a small branch for 35 years + giving of my money/time/talents to the greedy morg where whatever you did wasn't enough or good enough.  Of course, today I am more healed than I was  a year and a half ago  --  I was livid/pissed because I finally realized that the morg had kept me like a mushroom for 57 years  --  in the corner, in the dark, and fed me HORSESHIT. 
Because of the things I've read on this site and have been allowed to vent while on this site  --  I believe that my healing is in process  --  not what I could be, but a darn sight better than I was!  Like many things in life, healing from the morg is a process and not a one size fits all kind of experience and evolves over time.  And this site for many becomes a support group for that healing process!


   


Posted: 28 March 2016 11:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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In the last few years when someone would ask me if I am LDS (I live in Orem Utah so it happens weekly) my response went from a simple Yes, to a more complicated yes, but I'm not active. I literally felt so alone because no one that I knew had the same concerns I did. I did not know about Mormon think, CES letter, Mormon Stories podcast, Lighthouse ministries, the Tanners or so many other resources until a friend told me about postmormon.org.
 
A few months ago a friend and his wife came out on FB. I messaged him and he set me on this path.
 
This page has bolstered my POV and guided me to so many epiphanies. I learned so much that reinforced what I had learned on my own over the previous 10 years. Possibly more importantly I learned things that I had never even considered.
 
I now answer the question above with a complicated, "I used to be, but not anymore." The knowledge I have found here gives me the confidence to say that knowing that I can defend my position with facts.
 
It also helps me to read the stories of others that are struggling with familial relationships. We came out to family in March and we are dealing with the consequences of that. It's been better than I expected but most likely because I read so many letters that are posted here. I found letters that I loved and letters that made me uncomfortable. Overall the multiple letters and stories help me to tell mine in a way that I knew my family could understand.
 
I come to this site more often than I would like to admit (I hope it's not tracked). But I love reading the newest posts or comments. I enjoy having a place to vent.
 
I envision getting to a point where I no longer need postmormon.org and can answer the question above with a simple "no", but until then I will be here every day.
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Posted: 28 March 2016 11:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized:
Recently someone in another thread asked why don't we just get over it and get on with our lives? This is something that occasionally comes up here, and something which gives me pause from time to time. This article showed up on my facebook feed today and it really got me to thinking. In particular, this paragraph:


 
    After a lifetime of indoctrination, you can't "just get over it". It has permeated the very soul and impregnated itself within you. As for me, I am over it as much as I will ever be.
 
   I've never been personally asked this, but I don't think I would be very polite about my answer. Would someone ask a person who had just lost a spouse or parent, "why don't you just get over it?" For those who were mired deep within the morg machine, it was a part of them and will forever be somewhere still trying to guide them along some imaginary iron rod.
 
   Not a day goes by that I don't reflect on the past half-a century and how the mighty morg molded and contorted my soul to suit their desires. There are a lot of smart people in that organization and the methodology of control has been carefully honed to perfection. I feel lucky that I escaped and happy that I will never be pounded into that square hole again, ever. 
 
   For a long time I held a grudge against formor bishops, stake presidents, teachers, Parents, and other leaders for leading me along the path of blind obedience. But, most of them were just being lead the same as I was. I no longer have animosity against them for doing what they were indoctrinated to do. 
 
   Will I ever get over it? I doubt it.  But, in the same breath, I don't rail against anyone about it. If I see a facebook post promoting the morg, I just skip over it unless it's been posted to my own page. Then it gets deleted. 
 
   Thank you Matter Unorganized for this post, it got me thinking again. For those still deep in the morg cesspool, they haven't seen the light yet. And Maynard, I love your horses.
 



   


Posted: 28 March 2016 12:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
peace out
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For me I like coming to the site I am note entirely sure why but I'm sure it has a lot to do with the feelings of relief that washed over me when I finally had data to back up my decision to stop attending church nearly 20 years ago. It knew I had to leave because I just didn't believe it anymore for numerous reason but I didn't have the hard proof. you know CES type stuff... I really like when I get a chance to share with others who are in some state of transition. Sometimes my motives are darker anger resentment, but less and less over time. 
This has helped me to heal some of those huge scars from leaving feeling alone abandoned looked down upon by family and friends. I really have a lot of love and fond memories of the people in the ward I grew up in. I really wish that whole experience didn't come with such a big bag of crazy. and yes I know several Mormon people who I have never told I was Mormon because I don't want to hurt them or damage the friendship. I'm guessing I would tell them if they came right out and asked but even them I think I might not be totally forth coming it's such a minefield of emotional stuff for both me and them.
Now if they said they where not happy with church I would propably have to control the rate of data download. 
 
 


   


Posted: 28 March 2016 01:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
Free2Live
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Matter Unorganized:
Recently someone in another thread asked why don't we just get over it and get on with our lives? This is something that occasionally comes up here, and something which gives me pause from time to time. This article showed up on my facebook feed today and it really got me to thinking. In particular, this paragraph:

"I wish my fellow ex-Mormons (or former Mormons, or disaffected, or whatever) would realize that they are only mirroring the Mormonism they grew up with and lived with for so many years. The same black-and-white mentality unfolds, only as if we’ve suddenly been transported to bizarro world. Apologists go from heroes to villains, history goes from faith-promoting to faith-destructing, the Book of Mormon goes from proving the church is true to proving it’s false, Church leaders, both historic and modern, go from being the greatest men on earth to some of the most evil, the temple goes from beautiful to sinister, Joseph Smith goes from prophet to pedophile, the church goes from selfless charity to money-hoarding corporation, Mormons go from being the most enlightened people on earth to the most sheltered. On and on and on it goes. Instead of breaking out of the narrative the church wrote for us, we just flip the switch and black becomes white and up becomes down, but the story is identical..."
Am I just reflecting an opposite version of mormonism? Is this a function of the black-and-white thinking I was raised with? Why do I keep coming back to postmormon.org? I know we all have our reasons for being here and the reasons are as varied as the people here, but for me there's an underlying issue. My association with mormonism embarrasses me, frankly. It's the reason I want no funeral, because I don't want any of my friends or associates to know that I was in any way associated with this stupid cult. I almost walked out of a polygraph exam (it was for top-secret government clearance where I work - not as exciting as it sounds) because I had to tell the guy about my religious past. There are things I don't comment on on my facebook feed, not because it would out me to my family and friends, but because I don't want others to know that I'm somehow connected to mormonism. I sometimes go to great lengths to hide my background.
 
I wish I could make peace with my past, but at this time I just can't. I suppose it's tough still having family in the church, but even when I'm in a non-church environment, I can't admit to ever belonging to the church. I envy the author's perspective. I'm working towards it, but right now there are too many hurdles in my way.
 
Do any of you deal with this? How do you handle it?
 
Wish | Definition of Wish by Merriam-Webster
Simple Definition of wish. : a desire for something to happen or be done : a feeling of wanting to do or have something. : an act of thinking about something that you want and hoping that you will get it or that it will happen in some magical way. wishes : good thoughts or feelings directed toward a person.
 
 
Somehow I do not see what black and white thinking has to do with it! Either I was lied to or I was not. In the end it turns out my life was spent on a cults agenda. Somewhere in the middle is a warm fuzzy G-spot? A Gray place where repentence is retributed for and my time talent and energy is returned? This reminds me of a movie of which I do not recall the title. One character gets smacked in the face. Another supporting role actor has the line of saying, "Stop bleeding, that's dumb."
 
This sort of mentality is rampant in the bullshit called NOM and other cultic donation seeking activities that try to keep people in sheep pens that pay and contribute regularly.
 
I address it directly and openly no matter what the forum is. People generally think I am lambasting the founder of one particular business enterprise but in reality I am calling the followers sheep who follow yet another shepherd.
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One is as committed into testimony as much as they pay into the belief in dollars, time, talent and energy. Afterall, it has to be true once you have signed the lifetime subscription and you have a track record to defend.


   


Posted: 28 March 2016 03:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
leftasteen
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Simple:  The LDS Church's teachings are up or down, black or white, ALL true or ALL false.
 
It's not our fault the leaders doubled down on every over-the-top, outlandish doctrine from polygamy to blessed underwear to the black curse to Kolab.
 
It's not our fault they claimed to see and talk to God himself.
 
It's not our fault they made up an entire book and called it "devine history". 
 
It's not our fault they claim to have the special Preisthood that gives them the authority to act in God's name.
 
 
All that's kinda "all-in".  Don't ya' think?
 
When they call ex-mormons "extreme" I suggest they look in the mirror.  The real LDS religion I was taught (not the smooth-edges media facade) is an ALL or NOTHING choice.  They made that choice, not us.
   
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


   


Posted: 28 March 2016 04:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
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I wonder just how I can let go when it keeps chasing me and hurting my family.  I have a sister, whose husband turned PostMo, they divorced.  Her PostMo hubby found a brand new wife, built a brand new home and is thriving.  Now my sister tells me her teeth are in bad shape. She was in a near-death auto accident years ago and her teeth suffered a lot of damage.  Two crowns just fell off--the teeth are so bad, the new crowns fell off again.  She had to have another tooth pulled.  She has fillings that are half mercury. There is no excuse for this.  She pays a full tithing and offerings and gives the church a lot of time, yet--she struggles financially.  Therefore, her cleanings, dental care, medical care have been sacrificed.  I furnish her water filters and some supplements as she has some bone issues.  She is only 46. 
 
Then there is my niece who has severe epilepsy.  The family of four live on a little over $700 a month.  The teenagers now have health issues--probably from malnutrition.  The only thing my family sends them is mormon reading material. I help them quite a bit but the family should be helping them as well.  We need to work together to help them find a way to better support themselves. They are totally inactive.  So...my TBM family punishes them for not being active. They see it that if they were active--they would be blessed. 
 
This TBM family pays collectively around $30,000 a year to the morg.  I have noticed that they don't help family--unless it is their kids.  I think they are so busy and the church takes so much of their money--they no longer feel they need to help family.  Let the lawrd take care of them.  When you pay tithing, you don't have to help family, you pay the lawrd and wait for the trickle-down effect.  
 
There are a lot of reasons why some of us cannot pretend the church is not still hurting us.
 
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 28 March 2016 04:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
leftasteen
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They released my elderly mother after 15 years of working 20-30 hrs a week at the XXXXX Temple.  They said her dimentia had progressed so that she was no longer competent to perform her duties.
 
That SAME WEEK, her Bishop, who lived around the corner, accepted a check for over $3,000, several times the tithing she "owed." 
 
Right after that, I took over her finances. When I asked the Bishop, he recommended I should take her back to California with her family (all of us long-time post-mormons). 
 
It seems the "scam artists" I was afraid of should have included the church.  Once she could no longer work, or write checks, they dropped her like a hot rock.  No visitors, no assistance, no follow-up after a lifetime of devout service and donations.
 
After my 35 years out of the church and no animosity, I logged on to Anti-Mormon sites for the first time that very week.
 
And they wonder why we can't leave them alone.  
 
 


   


Posted: 28 March 2016 05:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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WinstonSmith
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MU---Bro. I hear you loud and clear.
 
I remember John Larsen once making a comment that sites like "postmormon" are like refugee camps. I think there is a reallity to this stament.  I find myself on this site more when things "Mormon Church" get under my skin.
 
But I am like you MU, I am trapped in a no-mans land, where my family is deeply engaged in the church. I have been able to move on intelectually; I have been able, in some regards, to move on emotionally (I relaps). The only reason the Church stays relevant in my life is summed up in two letters, DW.
 
I continue to be here, not because of "Black and White" thinking, but rather my emotional spectrum has matured so far beyond the 'one dimensional emotional void' I experienced in Mormonism---I need people to listen to, talk to, help me process the frustrations.
 
My Mormon friends won't try to understand
My non-Mormon friends can't underatand
My postmormon friends---well---yeah---um---what I am trying say is---um---I love you guys! 
 
I think most, if not all, understand that we go through the grieving process when we begin our transitions. Anger is one of the steps---people like you and I are faced with one of two choices: 1. Completely separate from the church and forfeit our families; or 2. Stay dedicated to the concept and obligation of family---the price? It is hard to overcome anger---it hurts me so bad to see the grasp that Mormonism has on my family---I again and again relaps to anger.
 
Unlike  many here, I am a coward: I have never had to confront my siblings about my 'faith transition' Since I was employed by the Church when my "faith crisis' began, I was able to deguise a change of employment with a career opprotunity several states removed. In a real way---I ran away. I do not have enough interactions with my siblings for them to suspect my faith has changed, and topics of conversation tend to be secular in nature.  Then there is the fact that my 'faith transition' began with the fundamental nature and existence of god---long before I new or questioned anything about how screwed up Mormon history and doctrine is.
 
Then there is the issue of my DW's terminal health problems---I don't feel a need to believe in a god, my DW, however, does need to believe in a god. I respect this---the last thing I need to do to DW is try and convince her that the religion she loves is a fraud durring what is likely to be the last few years of her life. Mormonism gives her hope, it gives her peace, it gives her happiness.---Is it wrong of me, to not burden her with the trauma of losing hope? I don't believe in an afterlife, so in my mind the stakes are not very high---I will not try to persuade her from her religion.
 
I look at this world, and when I look beyond Mormonism, this is what I see: The majority of people on this planet in some way are captives of religion or some other superstition. Most people in history in someway have been captive and oppressed by religion.  A very lucky few have ever been able to proclaim independance from this captivity and oppression.
 
I proudly, belong, visit, communicate, and post with some of the "lucky few" on this site.
 
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“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”  -Marcus Aurelius


   


Posted: 28 March 2016 07:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
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WinstonSmith:
MU---Bro. I hear you loud and clear.
 
I remember John Larsen once making a comment that sites like "postmormon" are like refugee camps. I think there is a reallity to this stament.  I find myself on this site more when things "Mormon Church" get under my skin.
 
But I am like you MU, I am trapped in a no-mans land, where my family is deeply engaged in the church. I have been able to move on intelectually; I have been able, in some regards, to move on emotionally (I relaps). The only reason the Church stays relevant in my life is summed up in two letters, DW.
 
I continue to be here, not because of "Black and White" thinking, but rather my emotional spectrum has matured so far beyond the 'one dimensional emotional void' I experienced in Mormonism---I need people to listen to, talk to, help me process the frustrations.
 
My Mormon friends won't try to understand
My non-Mormon friends can't underatand
My postmormon friends---well---yeah---um---what I am trying say is---um---I love you guys! 
 
I think most, if not all, understand that we go through the grieving process when we begin our transitions. Anger is one of the steps---people like you and I are faced with one of two choices: 1. Completely separate from the church and forfeit our families; or 2. Stay dedicated to the concept and obligation of family---the price? It is hard to overcome anger---it hurts me so bad to see the grasp that Mormonism has on my family---I again and again relaps to anger.
 
Unlike  many here, I am a coward: I have never had to confront my siblings about my 'faith transition' Since I was employed by the Church when my "faith crisis' began, I was able to deguise a change of employment with a career opprotunity several states removed. In a real way---I ran away. I do not have enough interactions with my siblings for them to suspect my faith has changed, and topics of conversation tend to be secular in nature.  Then there is the fact that my 'faith transition' began with the fundamental nature and existence of god---long before I new or questioned anything about how screwed up Mormon history and doctrine is.
 
Then there is the issue of my DW's terminal health problems---I don't feel a need to believe in a god, my DW, however, does need to believe in a god. I respect this---the last thing I need to do to DW is try and convince her that the religion she loves is a fraud durring what is likely to be the last few years of her life. Mormonism gives her hope, it gives her peace, it gives her happiness.---Is it wrong of me, to not burden her with the trauma of losing hope? I don't believe in an afterlife, so in my mind the stakes are not very high---I will not try to persuade her from her religion.
 
I look at this world, and when I look beyond Mormonism, this is what I see: The majority of people on this planet in some way are captives of religion or some other superstition. Most people in history in someway have been captive and oppressed by religion.  A very lucky few have ever been able to proclaim independance from this captivity and oppression.
 
I proudly, belong, visit, communicate, and post with some of the "lucky few" on this site.
 
I like this Winston Smith!  First of all, you are a hero--not a coward--when you are putting your DW's needs first as she is in such a delicate situation.  Bless you.  What you have said here is much of what my wonderful dentist and I were sharing today.  He is European and so understands the dangers and bondage that religion can hold.  He is fixing damage that a top-of-the LDS church food chain mormon dentist did to me.  Figures.  Anyway, his understanding and the way he worded-- how he reflected an offer to join the mormon church by a neighbor--was so refreshing--much like your post.  
 
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 28 March 2016 10:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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TruthSeeker47
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Matter Unorganized:
Recently someone in another thread asked why don't we just get over it and get on with our lives? This is something that occasionally comes up here, and something which gives me pause from time to time. This article showed up on my facebook feed today and it really got me to thinking. In particular, this paragraph:

"I wish my fellow ex-Mormons (or former Mormons, or disaffected, or whatever) would realize that they are only mirroring the Mormonism they grew up with and lived with for so many years. The same black-and-white mentality unfolds, only as if we’ve suddenly been transported to bizarro world. Apologists go from heroes to villains, history goes from faith-promoting to faith-destructing, the Book of Mormon goes from proving the church is true to proving it’s false, Church leaders, both historic and modern, go from being the greatest men on earth to some of the most evil, the temple goes from beautiful to sinister, Joseph Smith goes from prophet to pedophile, the church goes from selfless charity to money-hoarding corporation, Mormons go from being the most enlightened people on earth to the most sheltered. On and on and on it goes. Instead of breaking out of the narrative the church wrote for us, we just flip the switch and black becomes white and up becomes down, but the story is identical..."
Am I just reflecting an opposite version of mormonism? Is this a function of the black-and-white thinking I was raised with? Why do I keep coming back to postmormon.org? I know we all have our reasons for being here and the reasons are as varied as the people here, but for me there's an underlying issue. My association with mormonism embarrasses me, frankly. It's the reason I want no funeral, because I don't want any of my friends or associates to know that I was in any way associated with this stupid cult. I almost walked out of a polygraph exam (it was for top-secret government clearance where I work - not as exciting as it sounds) because I had to tell the guy about my religious past. There are things I don't comment on on my facebook feed, not because it would out me to my family and friends, but because I don't want others to know that I'm somehow connected to mormonism. I sometimes go to great lengths to hide my background.
 
I wish I could make peace with my past, but at this time I just can't. I suppose it's tough still having family in the church, but even when I'm in a non-church environment, I can't admit to ever belonging to the church. I envy the author's perspective. I'm working towards it, but right now there are too many hurdles in my way.
 
Do any of you deal with this? How do you handle it?
    I find that I'm forced to evaluate each teaching, doctrine, idea, ect., separately based on it's own merits.  There are parts of the cult that I think makes more sense than some other religions (like the "Trinity" nonsense), and other parts that seem too freaking evil (like "it's wrong to criticize church leaders even when the criticism is true").  Same with everything. There are some things I like about Bernie Sanders and other things I like about Donald Trump.  I have noticed that a lot of Mormons have a strong tendancy towards committing the "Black and White fallacy".  I'm not sure why but I think it has to do with brainwashing.
Maybe some employers like that characteristic in their employees (easy to trick and manipulate).
Also, it helps to know where the doctrines were plagiarized from.   Remember the lecture "How the Book of Mormon destroyed Mormonism"?  There are some parts of the Book of Mormon that are actually inspiring when looked at separately from the idiotic religion.
    When people say "why don't we just get over it?" I think they're probably not the brightest bulbs on the tree.  It's impossible to get over something that's thrown into your face every day in some way.  Can you imagine the disaster to humanity if Mitt Romney became president?  He would be making executive decisions based on a comic book.
 
 
  George Carlin's food for thought (in his own style) "The Controllers"
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYIC0eZYEtI
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


   


Posted: 29 March 2016 12:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
finex
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"Why can't you just get over it and continue with your life eh?"
 
 
Not the first time I've heard this. Most of the time I'm hearing this from active members. Usually I reply somethign like this:
"How could I get over it? It's part of me, part of my personal history, a thing that makes me what I am? Tell me how does one get over oneself and then goes on continung their lives?"
 
Then they might go on asking: "Why do you then make noise about it? Why do you speak against the church? Why can't you leave it alone like someone else is doing?" in which my most common reply is something like this:
 "Well there are many people in the world that suffer from cancer. Some of those that recover become advocates for cancer organizations. The same goes for ex-mormons too, we've just been deceived rather than suffered potentially terminal illness. Some may accept their losses and walk away quietly, but others like me, when we see something wrong or injustice in the world, we like to try to change the world for the better. Ex-mormons come in many flavours, very much the same as cancer victims, we are all people after all. Does that make me a bad person if I try to make the world a better place according to what I believe is right even though it might mean that it would be against your beliefs? Wouldn't you want to know if you're being deceived? Where do you believe you could get the information that would reveal to you that you're being deceived? From the people that have already been there and found it out or from the deceiver itself?"
 
So no I won't just walk away and stay quiet on this subject. I will act and do what I believe is right, which in the case of the TSCC is to expose it for what it is: a fraud.


   


Posted: 29 March 2016 02:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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Dovolente
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I found Mr. Hatch's blog post to be quite facile and condescending in general.    A few lines in particular:
 
 
But ex-Mormons who talk about LDS history lose a lot of perspective.
The reality is that ex-mormons are no longer under the onus of a "faithful only" mindset and interpretation of evidence. Adding a new perspective to your previous one--a perspective that doesn't require your study and thought to lead to a predetermined "official stance", is not a loss. In any way.
 
It isn't like we can't remember what the faithful perspective is or was--it didn't magically go poof. 
 
  
"When I hear ex-Mormons insist 'I was lied to,' I have to wonder who did the lying?"
Pretty much everyone--parents, teachers, leaders, and ourselves. Because the church from its founding by its original leaders created and institutionalized a system that perpetuates Smith's con.
 
Was I purposefully deceived by my parents, teachers, and local church leaders? By myself? I don't think so.  And that's what makes it all the more insidious--those who are encharged with love and care are teaching many falsehoods which they are compelled to hold as good and precious.
 
 
"We cannot get away from our own confirmation biases. Insisting that if all the facts are laid out then everyone will clearly agree with us or else they are the biased ones is the textbook definition of naïve realism." 
Asimov said: "When people thought the earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the earth was spherical, they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together. "
 
The earth is not a perfect sphere.  Post-mormons aren't immune to confirmation bias. But as Asimov said, if you think the bias of postmormons compares to the bias of mormons when it comes to analysis of church history and issues, you're wronger than both put together. :) 
 
 
"Please stop using the word apologist as an epithet. Please? You’re using it wrong."
Apologists have rightly earned membership in the same class of "truth manipulators" as politicans and lawyers.  If so many didn't engage in stretching/concealing/spinning the truth to have it fit their own ends, then these professions wouldn't suffer a bad rap.
 
Some don't deserve the rap, and it's unfortunate for them. But too many do. 
 
 
"Your outrage at Mormonism doesn’t make you cleaner than the rest of us."
No. But if you have absolutely no problem with the church's harmful practices, that continue to hurt real people in this the year 2016 AD--and your position is "everything's cool, just get over it" -- you've kinda shit yourself, in my opinion.


   


Posted: 29 March 2016 04:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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Kevin2
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Dovolente:
I found Mr. Hatch's blog post to be quite facile and condescending in general.    A few lines in particular:
 
 
But ex-Mormons who talk about LDS history lose a lot of perspective.
The reality is that ex-mormons are no longer under the onus of a "faithful only" mindset and interpretation of evidence. Adding a new perspective to your previous one--a perspective that doesn't require your study and thought to lead to a predetermined "official stance", is not a loss. In any way.
 
It isn't like we can't remember what the faithful perspective is or was--it didn't magically go poof. 
 
  
"When I hear ex-Mormons insist 'I was lied to,' I have to wonder who did the lying?"
Pretty much everyone--parents, teachers, leaders, and ourselves. Because the church from its founding by its original leaders created and institutionalized a system that perpetuates Smith's con.
 
Was I purposefully deceived by my parents, teachers, and local church leaders? By myself? I don't think so.  And that's what makes it all the more insidious--those who are encharged with love and care are teaching many falsehoods which they are compelled to hold as good and precious.
 
 
"We cannot get away from our own confirmation biases. Insisting that if all the facts are laid out then everyone will clearly agree with us or else they are the biased ones is the textbook definition of naïve realism." 
Asimov said: "When people thought the earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the earth was spherical, they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together. "

The earth is not a perfect sphere.  Post-mormons aren't immune to confirmation bias. But as Asimov said, if you think the bias of postmormons compares to the bias of mormons when it comes to analysis of church history and issues, you're wronger than both put together. :) 
 
 
"Please stop using the word apologist as an epithet. Please? You’re using it wrong."
Apologists have rightly earned membership in the same class of "truth manipulators" as politicans and lawyers.  If so many didn't engage in stretching/concealing/spinning the truth to have it fit their own ends, then these professions wouldn't suffer a bad rap.
 
Some don't deserve the rap, and it's unfortunate for them. But too many do. 
 
 
"Your outrage at Mormonism doesn’t make you cleaner than the rest of us."
No. But if you have absolutely no problem with the church's harmful practices, that continue to hurt real people in this the year 2016 AD--and your position is "everything's cool, just get over it" -- you've kinda shit yourself, in my opinion.
 
[    ] 
 
 
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“And now that you don’t have to be perfect, you can be good.” -John Steinbeck


   


Posted: 29 March 2016 08:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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I just wish some of our excellent rebuttals would find a section every week in the SL Tribune.  Why does this fake religion deserve to put their propaganda out there on a weekly and daily basis, but real truth about LDSism does not have the same opportunity.
 
Seems to me it does make us cleaner.  When you insist that a Warren Jeffs act-alike is a prophet of god, you have dirty hands.
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 29 March 2016 02:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
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Celestial Wedgie
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"I wish my fellow ex-Mormons (or former Mormons, or disaffected, or whatever) would realize that they are only mirroring the Mormonism they grew up with and lived with for so many years. The same black-and-white mentality unfolds, only as if we’ve suddenly been transported to bizarro world. Apologists go from heroes to villains, history goes from faith-promoting to faith-destructing, the Book of Mormon goes from proving the church is true to proving it’s false, Church leaders, both historic and modern, go from being the greatest men on earth to some of the most evil, the temple goes from beautiful to sinister, Joseph Smith goes from prophet to pedophile, the church goes from selfless charity to money-hoarding corporation, Mormons go from being the most enlightened people on earth to the most sheltered. On and on and on it goes. Instead of breaking out of the narrative the church wrote for us, we just flip the switch and black becomes white and up becomes down, but the story is identical..."
 
I liked much of what John Hatch had to say, although I'm not going go focus on that aspect. Mostly I found it ironic that he was painting ex-Mormons and Mormons as equally dichotomous. Then later he tells about stages of grief and ranges of belief. So where's the dichotomy? Did he just manufacture them with some careful verbal packaging? To me his essay sounded a lot like the verbal shaming I've received from true believers, an attempt to make me not express the truth as I see it. WTF? So now the devout faithful and those who follow Hatch's recommendations agree that only the believers should express their perspectives?
 
I have been at PostMormon for years. One thing I've seen is that nearly everyone changes over time, usually coming in broken or raging and then, months or years later, quietly fading away because their intensity is gone, an acceptance and softness replacing what had been emotional wounds. There is no dichotomy here: it's a whole range. We all transition and change. How is he not seeing that?
 
What bothered me most about Hatch's essay was the superior tone he takes, as if his version of not being Mormon is the more evolved way. While he acknowledges that he once raged, paragraphs later he treats raging as inferior. It's a tadpole disdaining the eggs of its own species, not seeing the frog it will become, and mistakenly thinking that one form is above the others. Another metaphor: I have this image of Hatch looking in his rearview mirror at the people behind him on the road and thinking, "I'm so ahead of them!"
 
I sometimes deal with people who have PTSD, the lingering effects of having been through trauma. One woman has never been able to shed her overreactions to swearing men or even ostensibly cordial texts from her ex-husband. The problem for this woman, I believe, is not that she has failed to adequately address her issues. The problem is that she is still not safe. Recently she heard a commotion outside, became suspicious, surreptitiously investigated, and detected/thwarted an attempt to set fire on her property. If she had been fully recovered from the PTSD her vigilance would have been lower and the outcome would have been much worse. Sometimes a person needs to have their alarm sensitivity turned up.
 
John Hatch presents a case for others to "get over it" like he has, his better way of having been Mormon. I think he intellectually knows that there are many roads leaving Zion, but at an emotional level he seems to perceive his as best, with the implication that something about him, too, is above the rest. Okay, good for you, Hatch. You're above me, you're more nuanced, you don't see church history as faith reducing, apologists abetting wrong, or sexual predation in a 32-year-old man manipulating parents to give their 14-year-old daughter for sex and a "secret" marriage. Given Smith's sexual escapades, I definitely side with "pedophile" over "prophet" as the better term. Am I blinded by black/white thinking?
 
MU, I also have taken a long, slow, winding path away from the temple. I'm not convinced that I will ever be fully done with it. Probably I've been hurt or was injured differently than John Hatch.
 
Years ago I saw a sign on the north slope of Timpanogos Peak, a warning of a potential death trap. The sign itself had fallen and was placed at the base of the post. It looked to me like the sign itself had fallen and had been put back approximately into place by someone who wanted it to be seen. I later learned that close to that sign was a sink hole in which winter snow accumulated. Then, with thawing, the snow became ice, a slippery funnel leading to the rocks below. I was told (but I don't know if it's true) that people have died slipping into that hole.
 
Reading John Hatch I get the impression that he sees such warnings as beneath him. I think he's full of shit. I applaud the people who went to all the work to put the sign there in the first place and I thank those who have come after, probably dozens of people, who keep putting the weathered wood back where people like me can see it and be informed.


   


Posted: 29 March 2016 07:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
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Lloyd Dobler
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Matter Unorganized:
Recently someone in another thread asked why don't we just get over it and get on with our lives? 

Am I just reflecting an opposite version of mormonism? Is this a function of the black-and-white thinking I was raised with? Why do I keep coming back to postmormon.org? I know we all have our reasons for being here and the reasons are as varied as the people here, but for me there's an underlying issue. My association with mormonism embarrasses me, frankly. It's the reason I want no funeral, because I don't want any of my friends or associates to know that I was in any way associated with this stupid cult. I almost walked out of a polygraph exam (it was for top-secret government clearance where I work - not as exciting as it sounds) because I had to tell the guy about my religious past. There are things I don't comment on on my facebook feed, not because it would out me to my family and friends, but because I don't want others to know that I'm somehow connected to mormonism. I sometimes go to great lengths to hide my background.
 
I wish I could make peace with my past, but at this time I just can't. I suppose it's tough still having family in the church, but even when I'm in a non-church environment, I can't admit to ever belonging to the church. I envy the author's perspective. I'm working towards it, but right now there are too many hurdles in my way.
 
Do any of you deal with this? How do you handle it?
 
 Great MU, first of all fck the author of that pice of sht article.  I can't stand exmos that make other exmos feel guilty like that.  What's more mormon that making others feel guilty?  Sounds like he's not as over mormonism as he wants everybody to believe.  lol  whatever
 
When it comes to you my friend.  I have a hard time just popping off some postmo schtick.  You already know the drill, you can correctly answer the questions in your post....you have been to the show, if you know what I mean.  For me, the questions you asked in your post are not nearly as interesting as your statement about being embarrassed by your association with mormonism.  I believe that is the heart of the issue.
 
You will need to work through that embarrassment, which I think is another word for shame.  The church bamboozled you and guilted you in the process and the bonus prize for figuring out the fraud is an incredible amount of shame.
 
A definition for shame : a painful feeling of humiliation or distress caused by the conciousness of wrong or foolish behavior.
 
I can only speak for myself.  I had a long period of being embarrassed and ashamed of being a mormon and all that goes with it.  I was ashamed that I based every important decision of my life on total nonsense.  Yeah I didn't like my past.  It went beyond having regrets for the options I had that I had passed up.  Emotionally, it was painful and I was humiliated......with myself.
 
So a couple things.  First, I realized that a lot of people grew up in religions like mormonism.  Even many catholics I talked to, who grew up with very active parents and went to catholic school, reported similar experiences to the ones I had as a mormon.  the fact is much of the world is based on controlling people, young people especially, through religion or otherwise and the transition of a person from such an organization is a pretty normal part of growing into adulthood.  Second, I realized that every non mormon I talked to about it really did not care if I used to be a mormon.  I found they don't judge me like, well like I used to judge poeple as a mormon.  I think people get it.  They all get that normal humans make mistakes let alone they get that people are born into this crap all the time.
 
I found what mattered was who I was now, how I acted.  If I was embarrassed about being a mormon, then they were embarrassed for me....but if I didn't give a crap, well they didn't give a crap either.
 
Your name may still be on the records, like millions of catholics etc, but you are no longer mormon.  MU, you don't need to carry that burden anymore.  Like Robin Williams to Matt Damon, "it's not your fault."  You have to own that it's not your fault.  You have to own that you used to be mormon and now you are not and that this is a very normal part of life.  It is certainly nothing to be embarrassed about anymore.  You gotta let that shame go.
 
I actually got over this feeling of shame and it was not from stopping doing anything.  It was from starting something.  I made a decision to accept myself, completely, just as I was, right then.  Accept the sum total of my life up to this point, mormonism and all........and then like who I was.  For me, it was a much deeper process than how it comes accross but honest to god it worked.  I just don't worry or feel bad or embarrassed about it anymore.  Being an exmo, or a mo or used to be mo or a exmo whose wife is still a mo......non of this defines me anymore.  Not only that but I just don't emotionally let it control me or embarrass me.  
 
You don't need to be embarrassed about your association with mormonism anymore.  I think if you can strike at that root, well, it may go a long way. 
 
 
 
 
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Vindicated, I am selfish, I am wrong, I am right
I swear I’m right, swear I knew it all along
And I am flawed
but I am cleaning up so well
I am seeing in me now the things you swore, you saw yourself

Vindicated
Dashboard Confessionalhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDCED-qQExc


   


Posted: 30 March 2016 05:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
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Dobler, I know that you don't need to come here as often these days, but when you do stop by your contributions are wonderful. Thanks so much for what you bring here. 

   


Posted: 30 March 2016 05:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]   

   
 
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Thanks for all the feedback and perspective! 
 
I think one of my biggest hurdles is the fact that I still have family in the church and as long as I have family in, it's going to be a difficult hurdle to clear. In some respects, the author of the article is right, but I see where he is also way off-base. He's being as judgmental as a typical TBM.
 
Lloyd, I think shame does play a big part. I've taken all the shame I was taught and subjected to as a TBM and I'm letting it influence my current situation, and I really don't need to. Same with black and white thinking; there are no nuances in mormonism and as such I've never really learned critical thinking and I have to force myself to remember that it's OK to see the space between black and white. I fall into the black/white trap a lot. One thing mormonism does not do is prepare its followers for life outside the cocoon of the church. The mormon habits are the only habits I know and it's really coming into play for me lately. I'm different, and that's bad (from a TBM perspective). So now the difference is screaming at me, even though I'm no different from anybody else. It's the perceived difference that's coming into play.
 
A few months ago I renewed acquaintance with a friend from church who I hadn't seen in almost 30 years. He too has left the church. He lives in New Jersey now, so there is no great church influence locally for him. His kids are out, even his ex is out. He was a convert, so there's no family in the church. I bemoaned the lack of support for exmos where I live, not knowing what to do and he cut me off - he said it's just being normal. The problem is, as a lifelong TBM, I don't know what normal is.
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Posted: 30 March 2016 08:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]   

   
 
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Mormon doctrine and culture reinforces black and white thinking.  It also stressses that there is one and only one way to properly live one's life.  Those ways of thinking become ingrained over time.  It would be very surprising to find that people who leave mormonism instantly change those ingrained thought processes.
 
The author doesn't seem to have let go of the notion that there is only one proper way to do things.  His path in transitioning out of mormonism seems to have worked out well for him.  Good for him!  I'm glad it did.  But that doesn't mean that his path would work for everyone.
 
IMO, transitioning out of mormonism gives us a good opportunity to question and reexamine the way we have been thinking.  It gives us a chance to detect patterns of tought reinforced by momon doctrine and culture and to keep or to change those patterns if we wish.  That doesn't mean everyone does it.  And we shouldn't assume that everyone has.
 
Everyone has to find her own way through this transition.  I don't pretend to know the best path.  I know my path would simply not work for lots of fellow post-mos.  Everyone gets to figure it out for themselves.  If we can support folks while they get through that figuring it out process, I think we've done something good.
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Posted: 30 March 2016 08:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]   

   
 
Bruce A Holt
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leftasteen:
Simple:  The LDS Church's teachings are up or down, black or white, ALL true or ALL false.
 
It's not our fault the leaders doubled down on every over-the-top, outlandish doctrine from polygamy to blessed underwear to the black curse to Kolab.
 
It's not our fault they claimed to see and talk to God himself.
 
It's not our fault they made up an entire book and called it "devine history". 
 
It's not our fault they claim to have the special Preisthood that gives them the authority to act in God's name.
 
 
All that's kinda "all-in".  Don't ya' think?
 
When they call ex-mormons "extreme" I suggest they look in the mirror.  The real LDS religion I was taught (not the smooth-edges media facade) is an ALL or NOTHING choice.  They made that choice, not us.
   
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Aka: A binary proposition.
 
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Science is a way to call the bluff of those who only pretend to knowledge. If we’re true to its values, it can tell us when we’re being lied to. It provides a mid-course correction to our mistakes. - Carl Sagan


   


Posted: 30 March 2016 02:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]   

   
 
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My experience is that it goes in stages. You might work thru a lot of stuff and think you're done. But something else surfaces later on, so you deal with that.
 
Especially for people who were born into it, there are a lot of layers to peel off. Different ways of thinking to be figured out. A lot of letting go to do. And realizing who you are and what you really believe. Takes time. But it does get easier.
 
There is life after mormonism, and it's good. :)
 
 


   


Posted: 31 March 2016 02:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]   

   
 
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guywithearrings50
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Winyan:
My experience is that it goes in stages. You might work thru a lot of stuff and think you're done. But something else surfaces later on, so you deal with that.
 
Especially for people who were born into it, there are a lot of layers to peel off. Different ways of thinking to be figured out. A lot of letting go to do. And realizing who you are and what you really believe. Takes time. But it does get easier.
 
There is life after mormonism, and it's good. :)
 
 
 
 
 I agree. I keep thinking I'm over the church, then something happens and it brings it back. I wasn't born into it, but I was active for 19 years before I resigned almost 4 years ago. 
 
I went through all the stages:, shock, confusion, anger at the morg for being betrayed, feeling stupid for falling for it, then acceptance as a learning experience. (there's probably other stages in there) 
 
My biggest issue now, is not being able to trust an organization. My wife and I have attended another church for about 2 years now and I like going but how do I know what they are teaching me is true or not? You get so many different ideas thrown at you and everything is a debate.
 
the morg taught me that there was one answer to a question (their answer--it might not be right but it was 1 answer). Now every question I have about religion is a debate. I'm not used to that.  I'm used to "this is the answer..." from the morg.


   


Posted: 31 March 2016 07:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]   

   
 
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Celestial Wedgie:
Dobler, I know that you don't need to come here as often these days, but when you do stop by your contributions are wonderful. Thanks so much for what you bring here.
 
 CW you always keep it very classy.  It's a real honor for me to still participate on this forum with so many people like you still around.  Thanks you for keeping postmo rolling.  Postmo really helped me.  
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Vindicated, I am selfish, I am wrong, I am right
I swear I’m right, swear I knew it all along
And I am flawed
but I am cleaning up so well
I am seeing in me now the things you swore, you saw yourself

Vindicated
Dashboard Confessionalhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDCED-qQExc


   


Posted: 31 March 2016 01:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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Don't know why, but intuition tells me...dear Brother Hatch...is working his way...out.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 01 April 2016 11:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]   

   
 
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Thanks, Dobler. I appreciate that. 

   


            
 
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The church higher-ups are telling those bomb-victim missionaries that they’ve had more influence for good…  
Posted: 31 March 2016 01:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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  http://www.sltrib.com/home/3724160-155/mormon-leaders-visit-missionary-hurt-in
 
I haven't figured out quite why this bothers me, other than they are probably converting more people while in their hospital beds, than they ever could going door-to-door.....  
 
If being injured during a mission is a "good-thing"....look out. 
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 01 April 2016 09:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
quietlydifferent
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Hey, my mission included two missionaries cutting parts off their left thumbs (same night oddly enough) and one falling off a mountain and getting seriously injured and we didn't see any GA's come up for that or any increase in baptisms. I guess none of those were horrible international incidents that could be shamelessly exploited. I mean what else could they have done? Shared their sympathies with the victims and their families, condemed the violent act and then quietly helped people in need of help? Not bloody likely. Way to stay classy Morg. 

   


Posted: 01 April 2016 10:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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quietlydifferent:
Hey, my mission included two missionaries cutting parts off their left thumbs (same night oddly enough) and one falling off a mountain and getting seriously injured and we didn't see any GA's come up for that or any increase in baptisms. I guess none of those were horrible international incidents that could be shamelessly exploited. I mean what else could they have done? Shared their sympathies with the victims and their families, condemed the violent act and then quietly helped people in need of help? Not bloody likely. Way to stay classy Morg.
 
  
 
Well put. 
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Posted: 01 April 2016 11:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Celestial Wedgie
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Matter Unorganized:
quietlydifferent:
Hey, my mission included two missionaries cutting parts off their left thumbs (same night oddly enough) and one falling off a mountain and getting seriously injured and we didn't see any GA's come up for that or any increase in baptisms. I guess none of those were horrible international incidents that could be shamelessly exploited. I mean what else could they have done? Shared their sympathies with the victims and their families, condemed the violent act and then quietly helped people in need of help? Not bloody likely. Way to stay classy Morg.
 
  
 
Well put. 
 
Me too.  +  Great summary of LDS, Inc.


   


            
 
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The Little Factory  
Posted: 29 February 2016 11:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Sunbeep
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The Little Factory
   I have a Little Factory, but for the first dozen years I didn’t know what it was or what it did except for one very basic function. Never really paid much attention to it. As I entered my teen years I became aware that this Little Factory would sometimes make itself known in small subtle ways. On occasion it seemed to want to start up on it’s own with the morning shift being the most active. Every now and then the graveyard shift would go to work and manufacture a little surprise too.
   In my mid-teen years the Little Factory was almost always in the fore front of my thoughts. I was curious about it and wondered why it acted the way it did. About this time the Bishop called me into his office and talked to me about the “M” word. I didn’t know what it was so I said “No“. I had no idea the grief I had avoided simply by being naive.
   Girls don’t have Little Factories, they have Loading Docks. Their Loading Docks are also multi-function but their biggest purpose is shipping and receiving. They also have more paper work to deal with than Little Factories. Most Little Factories need a Loading Dock nearby and most Loading Docks prefer to be close to a Little Factory. Occasionally a Loading Dock would rather be by another Loading Dock, the same with Little Factories. Local Zoning Laws try to regulate these placements and much is discussed concerning this issue. Hopefully someday, Little Factories and Loading Docks can situate wherever they darn well feel like it.
   Even though magazines were around, I had never actually seen a real Loading Dock until I was married. Then there was a flurry of activity at this particular Loading Dock. The Little Factory now had a license for full production. After a decent amount of receiving, the shipping part started up. This continued for years with unabated shipping and receiving. We had many urgent Morg orders to fill you know.
   After six packages had been shipped we decided we needed to Unionize. We needed the protection of the Union even though we knew that the Morg was against this protection. The parties at the Loading Dock continued, but we had enough packages and didn‘t want any more. Don’t get me wrong here, we still did lots of receiving, just tried to stop the shipping.
  
   Some years later we severed the lines of communication  between shipping and receiving. We also cut ties with the Union and went without their protection with much delight. Union protection was a good thing, we just didn’t need their protection anymore. We frolicked without Union protection.
   Many years later now, the Loading Dock is gone and the Little Factory has mostly shut down. The boiler fire isn’t as hot and the conveyor belt barely runs. The packages we delivered have their own Little Factories and Loading Docks now. It’s their time to flourish. It was a good run but reluctantly I will have to shut this Little Factory down and lock the doors. Good bye Little Factory.
 
 Of course this isn't me, wink wink, just thought I would share it.
 



   


Posted: 29 February 2016 02:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Well THAT was delightful!
 
I think I'll put my little factory into production tonight! I'll alert the loading dock, there is an inbound shipment on its way! 
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Posted: 29 February 2016 08:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Well, when you put it that way, polygamy DOES make sense, if you're trying to maximize production and prophets!
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Posted: 01 March 2016 04:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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That was captivating. Thanks for the laugh. 
 
Even though the Loading Dock associated with my Little Factory lost most of its morings, flipped out and left the neighborhood, I encourage my Little Factory to produce as much as possible....no Loading Dock required anymore. Turns out I like Factories a lot better than Loading Docks anyway, even though I knew that when the factory started production many years ago, it grew in size when I was around other Factories.  
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Why would you consider a man a prophet whose morals are worse than your own? Having claimed to commune with deity, be visited by angels and receive revelations, should he not be held to a higher standard? —me


   


Posted: 01 March 2016 07:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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WOW!!!  Just WOW!!! 
 
I think this just might be "Pamphlet Worthy"
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“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”  -Marcus Aurelius


   


Posted: 01 March 2016 07:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Then more  !
 
That was delightful! Thanks for taking the time to expand the metaphor in such a creative way!


   


Posted: 31 March 2016 09:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Your "Little Factory" story is so well conceived (punn intended) and written that I had to archive your masterpiece in the "M Word" section of The Salamander:
 
http://salamandersociety.com/sexuality/mword/ 
 
Coincidentally, just below your story is one by an active LDS physician who decries Boyd K Packer's shameful stance.
 
Thanks so much! 


   


Posted: 31 March 2016 12:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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Celestial Wedgie
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whitesalamander:
Your "Little Factory" story is so well conceived (punn intended) and written that I had to archive your masterpiece in the "M Word" section of The Salamander:
 
http://salamandersociety.com/sexuality/mword/ 
 
Coincidentally, just below your story is one by an active LDS physician who decries Boyd K Packer's shameful stance.
 
Thanks so much! 
 
Sunbeep, did you see this? You've been canonized.  


   


Posted: 31 March 2016 01:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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Hate to disappoint you, but girls have "buttons" that work like "little factories"....so that the "dock" is more comfortable for them. Use that button for great "surprises."
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 01 April 2016 06:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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Jon Marshall
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I am so glad that i was never taught that Little Factory lesson. I would have laughed and left the room.  
 
As some people have commented on it on other posts, they had this talk presented with the boys and their dads with them. So making it doubly uncomfortable for the kids. 
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Posted: 01 April 2016 08:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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What I found to be as bizzare as the little factory speech was crazy was when I would go to the church building library to get the sunday meeting programs. Those packer pecker pamphlets were around the library in conspicuous places on purpose for people to pick one up and read it. I thought that was way wierd. Mostly women have the librarian job. The cult called a church never did have a talk on do not tamper with their little egg factories. The propoganda is all about controlling and manipulating the males into giving up all rights to even have penis testicles and a sex drive.
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Posted: 01 April 2016 04:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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Sunbeep
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Celestial Wedgie:
whitesalamander:
Your "Little Factory" story is so well conceived (punn intended) and written that I had to archive your masterpiece in the "M Word" section of The Salamander:
 
http://salamandersociety.com/sexuality/mword/ 
 
Coincidentally, just below your story is one by an active LDS physician who decries Boyd K Packer's shameful stance.
 
Thanks so much! 
 
Sunbeep, did you see this? You've been canonized.  
 
    No, I didn't see it until just now. I feel honored and humbled to have achieved this significient recognition. See what a little strawberry moonshine and a sleepless night can do?  I owe it all to my old bishop Sanders who is long gone now but his legend lives on. 
 
Thank You, Sunbeep
 



   


            
 
 ‹‹ I’m New - Just met with my Bishop - Not a good experiance        Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series March 6th 2 PM- MORONI AND THE SWASTIKA ››  
 
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Un-fullfilled Promises by Leaders  
Posted: 02 April 2016 06:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Jon Marshall
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I know many of you have probably experienced this. 
 
What promises were you given by your leaders that never came true?
 
My friend right now has had a lot of those promises never come true. His Bishop told him that he would definitely find a wife last year, that he got personal revelation.  WOW
 
My poor friend.
 
Jon 
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Joseph Smith and Starfleet team up
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Has anyone been watching "The Story of God" narrated by Morgan Freeman?
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DC (aka HCC aka "Court of Love") is tonight! Wish me luck.
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What else can you call it, but the GREAT MANIPULATION!
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My story is now over on Mormon Think
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Monday -- Let's Talk about SEX!
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Patriarchal Blessing F-Bombs
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I love not being Mormon but especially on days like today...What will you do?
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I like honest and integritous general authorities
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2015 Conference
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October 16-18
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Financial Report for 2011 to Date

Financial Report for 2010 to Date

Financial Report for 2009

Twin Falls Newspaper Article

Twin Falls Billboard

Financial Report for 2009 to Date




The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]

Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]

Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]



 Coming up May 1’st 2016 - Kristyn Decker to lecture!
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (4/3)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
Imprompu get-together
[Dead Prophets Soc...] 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (3/6)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series- March 6th, 2016 Author Dave Nelson
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
Open House Meetup: 3/19/16
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
Train ride and picnic Meetup: 2/27/16
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Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series February 7th, 2016- Joe Rawlins
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
SF Bay Area Super Bowl Party (Feb 7)
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Jan 10th, 2016-Southern Utah PostMormons will present an outstanding lecture combo
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Book of Mormon Tories
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Why I am a Better Mother
by antipsicótica 
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by Barney 
Resignation Letter to My Family
sam2

Post-mormon Roles
sam2

Post-mormon Roles
former victim

The Book of Mormon Musical comes to South Carolina!
Swearing Elder

Resignation Letter to My Family
INRETROSPECT

Resignation Letter to My Family
oneanother

Utah County CALM meetup for November
BlackSheep2

FACEBOOK INFO
Crissy

FACEBOOK INFO
Barn

October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
Starfleet

October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
alvie

Why I am a Better Mother
by aworkinprogress 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
exmoinaz

SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
owned

The Mormon Mask
by Born Free 
Las Vegas Meetup--Jazz in the Park Saturday May 10 6:30PM
onendagus

Resignation Letter to My Family
ShadowSage

Resignation Letter to My Family
ShadowSage

Guru Busters
by Flora4 
Guru Busters
by Flora4 
Resignation Letter to My Family
Hbush1987

General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
Swearing Elder


            

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One more thing for women  
Posted: 29 March 2016 03:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
scotmama3
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I saw on the news last night that the MORG is now saying that all LDS women should mentor a refugee or two one on one.  It does not say anything about the men mentoring refugees.  I guess this is a tactic to try to shore up the reputation they are getting regarding callousness of their own members.  It would seem to me that members should at least be kind to and accept their own members that are LGBT but that has not been mentioned recently.
 
I wonder where the church thinks this time and money for mentoring is going to come from.  Women are already challenged with large families, multiple church assignments and now they want them to take on refugees.  I wonder how this program is going to work out or is it all just hype to make the Morg look good and kind.


   


Posted: 29 March 2016 05:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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scotmama:
I saw on the news last night that the MORG is now saying that all LDS women should mentor a refugee or two one on one.  It does not say anything about the men mentoring refugees.  I guess this is a tactic to try to shore up the reputation they are getting regarding callousness of their own members.  It would seem to me that members should at least be kind to and accept their own members that are LGBT but that has not been mentioned recently.
 
I wonder where the church thinks this time and money for mentoring is going to come from.  Women are already challenged with large families, multiple church assignments and now they want them to take on refugees.  I wonder how this program is going to work out or is it all just hype to make the Morg look good and kind.
 
We had some flooding here a few years back, and some drone from the stake high council showed up at priesthood meeting and told everybody that it was their priesthood duty to volunteer to help with the cleanup (about 100,000 people were displaced). This was about 2 weeks after the fact. I guess the church, as usual, was a day late and a dollar short. 
 
If the church has to tell its members to volunteer, they need to have another look at the way they do things. 
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Posted: 29 March 2016 06:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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It just seems like it is out of the blue and really unconnected to anything.  However, I am not so naive that I believe that the pronouncement is not part of some plan that they have.  Maybe they think the women do not have enough to do and that this will keep them busy enough that they do not have the time to think about the inequality in the church or that they might like to hold the priesthood also. 

   


Posted: 29 March 2016 07:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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scotmama:
I saw on the news last night that the MORG is now saying that all LDS women should mentor a refugee or two one on one.  It does not say anything about the men mentoring refugees.  I guess this is a tactic to try to shore up the reputation they are getting regarding callousness of their own members.  It would seem to me that members should at least be kind to and accept their own members that are LGBT but that has not been mentioned recently.
 
I wonder where the church thinks this time and money for mentoring is going to come from.  Women are already challenged with large families, multiple church assignments and now they want them to take on refugees.  I wonder how this program is going to work out or is it all just hype to make the Morg look good and kind.
 
 My first thought on this is they know these women are going to push mormonism on these refugees.  I suppose the men alreadly have too much on their plates.  Don't want to offend them--you know--by making life more difficult.
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Posted: 29 March 2016 08:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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And don't forget those "mormon helping hands" t-shirts! They must be worn, because when the camera crew and the regional authority show up for the photo op, they must be easily identified by the public!
 
Just one problem... If the "mentors" try to foist their religion upon these refugees, most of whom are Muslim, that opens a whole new can of worms, since anyone who leaves Islam can be branded an infidel and a death warrant could be put out on them (depending on the faction of Islam they observe). Yes, help them, but don't push religion on them. LET THEM BE, for god's sake!
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Posted: 29 March 2016 08:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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It is always more complicated than just doing a good deed.  T-shirts, proseletizing (sic).  It can never be about helping someone just because you want to give them a hand up.  We are all cynical for good reason. 

   


Posted: 30 March 2016 11:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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So this can b twisted around and construed over time into getting your blessings?
 
How devious or low will they stoop?


   


Posted: 30 March 2016 01:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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I've already seen posts from TBM friends applauding the church for how wonderful it is that THIS is being led by women. So basically, this is about how women need to be shown in leadership roles. 

   


Posted: 30 March 2016 01:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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jellybean:
I've already seen posts from TBM friends applauding the church for how wonderful it is that THIS is being led by women. So basically, this is about how women need to be shown in leadership roles.
 
 If it were not for the women and what they do the whole MORG would fall crumbling to the ground.  I do not know what this is all about but it is not the women directing it unless they are doing what the men tell them to do.  It is one more ridiculous thing to take up their time.....like food storage.
 


   


Posted: 30 March 2016 02:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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It's a good thing to help others. But this is a mandate. Pressure to do more than they're already doing. The church always reminds me of how the Egyptians treated the Hebrew slaves. Not only did they have to spend all day tromping the straw into the mud for bricks, but then they had to gather straw at night too. 

   


Posted: 31 March 2016 03:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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Winyan:
It's a good thing to help others. But this is a mandate. Pressure to do more than they're already doing. The church always reminds me of how the Egyptians treated the Hebrew slaves. Not only did they have to spend all day tromping the straw into the mud for bricks, but then they had to gather straw at night too.
 
 That is a good way to put it.  It is a mandate.  I am guessing that overextended women are currently taking on more than they can do to out righteous their neighbor and it is not being done because they want to but because the church demands more and more of them so they do not have time to think about what they are believing in and supporting.


   


Posted: 31 March 2016 07:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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scotmama:
Winyan:
It's a good thing to help others. But this is a mandate. Pressure to do more than they're already doing. The church always reminds me of how the Egyptians treated the Hebrew slaves. Not only did they have to spend all day tromping the straw into the mud for bricks, but then they had to gather straw at night too.
 
 That is a good way to put it.  It is a mandate.  I am guessing that overextended women are currently taking on more than they can do to out righteous their neighbor and it is not being done because they want to but because the church demands more and more of them so they do not have time to think about what they are believing in and supporting.
 
 Yes, and probably one of the reasons why studies show such a high rate of depression and prescription drug use among mormons. Especially women, and especially in Utah.


   


Posted: 31 March 2016 11:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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Winyan:
scotmama:
Winyan:
It's a good thing to help others. But this is a mandate. Pressure to do more than they're already doing. The church always reminds me of how the Egyptians treated the Hebrew slaves. Not only did they have to spend all day tromping the straw into the mud for bricks, but then they had to gather straw at night too.
 
 That is a good way to put it.  It is a mandate.  I am guessing that overextended women are currently taking on more than they can do to out righteous their neighbor and it is not being done because they want to but because the church demands more and more of them so they do not have time to think about what they are believing in and supporting.
 
 Yes, and probably one of the reasons why studies show such a high rate of depression and prescription drug use among mormons. Especially women, and especially in Utah.
 
 I think you may be right about this.  There is a problem with both anti-depressants and pain medication abuse in Utah.  I think the usage is more here than almost any other state.  How else does a woman maintain her sanity when the church keeps on piling more and more on her shoulders. 


   


Posted: 31 March 2016 01:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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Oh goodie, "Adopt a Refugee" program, probably will work just as well as the "Navaho students living with LDS families during the 1960s." That didn't work very well either...pulling teenagers away from their families on reservations, to get "educated" with no loving support. As usual, more work for women...on top of the lame jobs they have to do for the church.
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Posted: 02 April 2016 07:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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My prediction:
Droves of faithful latter day saint women will take heed of the call to help the down trodden refugees. A group of LDS women probably from the North Salt Lake area or near BYU will form a committee all on their own because they are so selfless. Then 1 year from now at the next General Conference session, this tremendous act of love will be a nice filler piece between sessions. Such a tender mercy!


   


Posted: 02 April 2016 07:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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Tessa:
Oh goodie, "Adopt a Refugee" program, probably will work just as well as the "Navaho students living with LDS families during the 1960s." That didn't work very well either...pulling teenagers away from their families on reservations, to get "educated" with no loving support. As usual, more work for women...on top of the lame jobs they have to do for the church.
 
 YES! A family member had personal experience with this. A teen was put in their home, and this boy ended up molesting their daughters. When they went to the bishop to get this boy removed from their home they were told that THEY KNEW about this as a possible issue because it had happened in OTHER homes as well, but really hoped that THEIR home would have had the right spirit to fix it!
 
Talk about manipluation and guilt tripping! No appology for what happened to their daughters, just "oh shoot, you weren't spiritual enough to fix it after all". And of course, being TBM they took the abuse.


   


Posted: 02 April 2016 11:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
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jellybean:
Tessa:
Oh goodie, "Adopt a Refugee" program, probably will work just as well as the "Navaho students living with LDS families during the 1960s." That didn't work very well either...pulling teenagers away from their families on reservations, to get "educated" with no loving support. As usual, more work for women...on top of the lame jobs they have to do for the church.
 
 YES! A family member had personal experience with this. A teen was put in their home, and this boy ended up molesting their daughters. When they went to the bishop to get this boy removed from their home they were told that THEY KNEW about this as a possible issue because it had happened in OTHER homes as well, but really hoped that THEIR home would have had the right spirit to fix it!
 
Talk about manipluation and guilt tripping! No appology for what happened to their daughters, just "oh shoot, you weren't spiritual enough to fix it after all". And of course, being TBM they took the abuse.
 
 If I were that parent, I would sue the church.  They have the responsibility to protect volunteers from known threats.  It is disgusting that they would expose an innocent family to this kind of risk  However, the family probably is TBM and would not think of criticizing the a$$holes who put their daughters at risk.


   


            
 
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Posted: 02 April 2016 10:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmGVb8TjoY4
 
May you find this discussion to be very appropriate for conference weekend.
 
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Posted: 03 April 2016 06:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Love the video. 
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I love not being Mormon but especially on days like today…What will you do?  
Posted: 02 April 2016 09:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Youngsinglerunning
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It's General Conference weekend.  But instead of sitting at some persons house listening for hours on end about how to be obedient I'm going to do whatever I want!  I LOVE IT.  Shopping, Gym, and later hit a few bars for some good live music. 
 
Hey remember when they let a woman say closing prayer  I guess that didn't go well because I havent heard any ground breaking news about a woman being able to do something during general confrance.  HAHAHAHAHA.   
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I have just begun my Adventures into the secular world. And I’m absolutely clueless.  Drinking, Sex, and skirts above the knee:P Check out my blog to hear my story.  It keeps me sane and it’s anonymous
http://breakingmormon.blogspot.com/


   


Posted: 03 April 2016 04:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Lazarus
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Your day sounds great!  I enjoyed the good weather, went on a walk,  went out for pizza, dug in my yard, and went for a bike ride.  The thought popped into my head several times, I am so glad I am not sitting in front of a TV right now having somebody do my thinking for me.  I'm so happy to be free! 

   


Posted: 04 April 2016 07:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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maynardg
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On Saturday, I watched movies and on Sunday, I went shopping and watched movies.  Just like any other Sunday, I get to do what I want and I don't have to sit through hours of mind numbing HORSESHIT! 

   


            
 
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Patriarchal Blessing F-Bombs  
Posted: 01 April 2016 07:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Youngsinglerunning
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 I often think about is my patriarchal blessing.  I get so upset that the church would use a Fortune telling blessing to manipulate you to stay.  Like many peoples blessings I was told I would marry a good and wonderful Pristhood holder who would lead us into bla bla bla....
 
I held on to that promise for a very long time.  I dated like crazy at BYU.  I threw myself at not so handsome men and was still shot down.  I'm not unattractive unless you count my horrable desire to be a self made woman with a job.  Also my questioning of church Customs.  I do feel so lucky to have escaped.  
 
My Boyfriend is so sweet and wonderful and NOT MORMON.  Never was never will be.  I am so lucky all those mormon boys shot me down.  How sad it would be if I had gotten married and done as the church wanted me.  Not sure I would have left.   
 
SO  F*CK YOU PB!  You are just another lie told by the LD$ to keep you trapped in their  way of life.  
 
Tell me if your Patriarchal Blessing caused you to question leaving.  
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I have just begun my Adventures into the secular world. And I’m absolutely clueless.  Drinking, Sex, and skirts above the knee:P Check out my blog to hear my story.  It keeps me sane and it’s anonymous
http://breakingmormon.blogspot.com/


   


Posted: 01 April 2016 07:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Jon Marshall
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I have read on other posts that it seems that the Patriarch gets a before hand life view of you from the Bishop or Stake President or he asks you questions before his BLESSING and takes it from there. 
 
I was blessed with physical strength and stamina according to the PB: Could it also have been because i was into sports and lifting weights or was it after he asked me about what i like to do for fun?
 
To most TBMS it is a life guideline. They will not vary from it and will constantly look at it and read it, ponder it and push away relationships, life journeys to make sure it is lining up correctly. 
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Posted: 01 April 2016 08:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
Free2Live
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Way back in my college years I was always working and didn't have time to socialize much. In trying to befriend a cute girl that worked at the mall selling candy, eventually we went out for a date of some casual nature. After the time spent together she looks me in the eye and says this. - 'My PB says that I would know my partner when I meet him. We knew each other in the spirit world and agreed to be together. Then she followed up with this statement. You are not him.'
 
 
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One is as committed into testimony as much as they pay into the belief in dollars, time, talent and energy. Afterall, it has to be true once you have signed the lifetime subscription and you have a track record to defend.


   


Posted: 01 April 2016 09:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
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FreeLive:
Way back in my college years I was always working and didn't have time to socialize much. In trying to befriend a cute girl that worked at the mall selling candy, eventually we went out for a date of some casual nature. After the time spent together she looks me in the eye and says this. - 'My PB says that I would know my partner when I meet him. We knew each other in the spirit world and agreed to be together. Then she followed up with this statement. You are not him.'
 
 
 
 And you probably would have felt really creepy had she said, "And you are him!"  Think of the poor guy she did that to--maybe more than one guy.  
 
Mine told me I had been blessed with a beautiful body.  Nice compliment--but should that have really been in there?  But then we know it is all made up so anything could be in there.
 Signature
I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 01 April 2016 10:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized
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Strong Free & Thankful:
Free2Live:
Way back in my college years I was always working and didn't have time to socialize much. In trying to befriend a cute girl that worked at the mall selling candy, eventually we went out for a date of some casual nature. After the time spent together she looks me in the eye and says this. - 'My PB says that I would know my partner when I meet him. We knew each other in the spirit world and agreed to be together. Then she followed up with this statement. You are not him.'
 
 
 
 And you probably would have felt really creepy had she said, "And you are him!"  Think of the poor guy she did that to--maybe more than one guy.  
 
Mine told me I had been blessed with a beautiful body.  Nice compliment--but should that have really been in there?  But then we know it is all made up so anything could be in there.
 
Free2Live: That's harsh!!! Wow, but I know people like that. No thinking necessary! It's what makes mormonism attractve to so many people.
 
Strong Free & Thankful: Damn, all I got was "a sound mind and a keen intellect".
 
Hmm maybe he could see into the future... 
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Posted: 01 April 2016 11:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Celestial Wedgie
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FreeLive:
Way back in my college years I was always working and didn't have time to socialize much. In trying to befriend a cute girl that worked at the mall selling candy, eventually we went out for a date of some casual nature. After the time spent together she looks me in the eye and says this. - 'My PB says that I would know my partner when I meet him. We knew each other in the spirit world and agreed to be together. Then she followed up with this statement. You are not him.'
  
 
Thank goodness that she tipped her hand early. Think of all the misery that could have been yours if you'd ended up liking her!
 
 
 


   


Posted: 01 April 2016 07:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Winyan
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Mine said I'd have children. But I had to have a hysterectomy. Guess he meant I'd have children in the next life. That's how they always explained it.
 
Except for one line, my blessing was word for word the same as the friend who went with me to get hers that day. 


   


Posted: 02 April 2016 05:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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Jon Marshall
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I think a lot of girls and some guys had that line of " you will know your spouse when you see them".  I knew a few who had that. 
 
My one friend ( guy ) PB said that he would have a burning in his bossom. He had that about every girl. Which one was it, or does he already know about all his heavenly wives?
 
 
 Signature http://www.jonathankmarshall.blogspot.com


   


Posted: 02 April 2016 09:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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Quartersawn
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I think all PBs come with the caviot, "upon your faithfullness." Everything is contingent upon you staying strong in the church.  It's truely a mindfnck. 
 
I was told I'd have sons and daughters, plural. I have one of each.
I was told I'd be a leader in the church with much authority. The highest up the ladder of success was a Stake Missionary or maybe it was the Stake Sunday School President (whoop whoop). I did have a missionary calling that had high visibility and security clearance on Temple Square for 25+ years, but not a leadership position.  
 
Because of my understanding of and working with many other churches I thought one day I'd work in the COB as a liason to other churches, at least that's what "the spirit" told me several times. 
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Why would you consider a man a prophet whose morals are worse than your own? Having claimed to commune with deity, be visited by angels and receive revelations, should he not be held to a higher standard? —me


   


Posted: 02 April 2016 06:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
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Matter Unorganized:
Strong Free & Thankful:
Free2Live:
Way back in my college years I was always working and didn't have time to socialize much. In trying to befriend a cute girl that worked at the mall selling candy, eventually we went out for a date of some casual nature. After the time spent together she looks me in the eye and says this. - 'My PB says that I would know my partner when I meet him. We knew each other in the spirit world and agreed to be together. Then she followed up with this statement. You are not him.'
 
 
 
 And you probably would have felt really creepy had she said, "And you are him!"  Think of the poor guy she did that to--maybe more than one guy.  
 
Mine told me I had been blessed with a beautiful body.  Nice compliment--but should that have really been in there?  But then we know it is all made up so anything could be in there.
 
Free2Live: That's harsh!!! Wow, but I know people like that. No thinking necessary! It's what makes mormonism attractve to so many people.
 
Strong Free & Thankful: Damn, all I got was "a sound mind and a keen intellect".
 
Hmm maybe he could see into the future... 
 I could have used the "sound mind and keen intellect"  years earlier if it had gotten me out sooner!  I would have expected maybe a strong and healthy body.  The partriach and I were friends.   I was in my twenties.  I am thinking he might have had a crush?  It felt kind of creepy.  
 
 Signature
I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 03 April 2016 05:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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WinstonSmith
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Joined  2011-09-26
 
  
 
Youngsinglerunning:
 I often think about is my patriarchal blessing.  I get so upset that the church would use a Fortune telling blessing to manipulate you to stay.  Like many peoples blessings I was told I would marry a good and wonderful Pristhood holder who would lead us into bla bla bla....
 
I held on to that promise for a very long time.  I dated like crazy at BYU.  I threw myself at not so handsome men and was still shot down.  I'm not unattractive unless you count my horrable desire to be a self made woman with a job.  Also my questioning of church Customs.  I do feel so lucky to have escaped.  
 
My Boyfriend is so sweet and wonderful and NOT MORMON.  Never was never will be.  I am so lucky all those mormon boys shot me down.  How sad it would be if I had gotten married and done as the church wanted me.  Not sure I would have left.   
 
SO  F*CK YOU PB!  You are just another lie told by the LD$ to keep you trapped in their  way of life.  
 
Tell me if your Patriarchal Blessing caused you to question leaving.  
 
 [   ] YSR - you nailed this one. In many ways I view the PB as shackles. My DW will not make any major decision without consulting her PB. Of course her TB ultimately tells her to follow the council of her husband. IMO - this is a potentially dangerous statement, tipping the balance of power in the man's favour. Basically it tells my DW she is property without freewill. So so wrong! 
 
 [   ] My experience in developing relationships outside the Church, is that people are more authentic and genuine. The test of real friendship in the church is if that friendship endures one moving outside of a ward boundry and the friendship remains. I'm like 0/100.
 
After putting the checkmark next to my "two year mission completed", I turned my efforts to browsing the inventory of women in the church. The next step in life was the Mormon "impulse" marriage. Getting married had nothing to do about building a relationship first with a woman---In fact I will admit that my Mormon "impulse" marriage was more about sex then about relationship; and I bet I am not unique marrying for that reason.
 
-----------------
 
When thinking about PBs, I think about 'Mentalism'. The reality about TBs are this:
 
They are mostly vague and many things said are unverifiable;
They are framed like an "If, Then statement"; and on points of specifiecs---If something "good" does not come to pass, it is your fault.
If something appears to have been fulfilled in the PB, then it is disporportionately made known to people, while non-fulfilled points are hidden.
By nature of Mormon lifestyle, a high percentage PBs general statements can be interpreted as being fulfilled.
 
THE IRONY --- PBs may be the single significant thing that the Mormon Church uses to steal the freewill (agency) from its members, while professing that Satan's plan was to steal our agency. 
 
It is F****D UP!
 Signature
“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”  -Marcus Aurelius


   


Posted: 03 April 2016 07:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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Morethanmo
Long Timer
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Joined  2014-07-24
 
  
 
Strong Free & Thankful:
FreeLive:
Way back in my college years I was always working and didn't have time to socialize much. In trying to befriend a cute girl that worked at the mall selling candy, eventually we went out for a date of some casual nature. After the time spent together she looks me in the eye and says this. - 'My PB says that I would know my partner when I meet him. We knew each other in the spirit world and agreed to be together. Then she followed up with this statement. You are not him.'
 
 
 
 And you probably would have felt really creepy had she said, "And you are him!"  Think of the poor guy she did that to--maybe more than one guy.  
 
Mine told me I had been blessed with a beautiful body.  Nice compliment--but should that have really been in there?  But then we know it is all made up so anything could be in there.
 
 Ummmm, ew. Sounds like your patriarch was a creeper. 
 Signature
__________________________________________

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
~Epicurus
__________________________________________


   


Posted: 04 April 2016 08:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
Hank
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Being a convert, I got my PB at about 27 years old as a single dad.I re-read the PB many times over, finding strength in what seemed to be comforting words from God. I would re-marry a worthy woman...this one was big, since I feared marrying someone when I had small kids (wicked stepmother kinda thing). Talked about leadership positions. Blah, blah, blah. I admit, it was very comforting on several levels as a TBM.
 
There was a several year gap between the last readings of it. I was no longer TBM...still attending church for my wife's sake, but I no longer believed any of it. This time, with more life experience and skeptical questioning, I realized that everything in the PB was found out by theStake Patriarch beforehand. We chatted in his living room for a while (half hour) and in retrospect, much of what was in the PB he gleaned from that conversation. Everything else was filler based on the odds. Any professing faithful man can have his pick of the litter in the church. Many more women than men, so of course I would marry someone "worthy", whatever that means. And since everything hinges on your faithfulness, there were several lines added to promote faith.
 
It's funny that they used to charge for this service. Go door to door and out-pricing each other for the chance to make some green giving a PB. Even JS Sr. wrote how excited he was to get called as a patriarch because now he could earn a living.


   


Posted: 04 April 2016 08:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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maynardg
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Joined  2014-07-23
 
  
 
One of the things that put something new on "my shelf".  Everyone in the family was told that we came from Ephraim and then our first son, third child received his PB(all of our other children got their PBs from the same patriarch) and he was told he came from Manasseh.  And I'm thinking  --  what's with that(I was still TBM, so WTF wasn't even considered).  The patriarch explained why  --  didn't understant what the hell he was talking about and it has been too long to remember, but it became another one of my shelf issues.  I do remember two other things  --  my TBDW has never been happy with hers  --  too short(only one page) and said a bunch of nondescript things(which made her wonder about the "personal revelation" part);  a sister in our branch didn't like her PB(don't know why) so she had another PB from the same patriarch  --  second significantly different than the first  --  hmm! 

   


Posted: 04 April 2016 08:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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maynardg
Long Timer
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Joined  2014-07-23
 
  
 
Winyan:
Mine said I'd have children. But I had to have a hysterectomy. Guess he meant I'd have children in the next life. That's how they always explained it.
 
Except for one line, my blessing was word for word the same as the friend who went with me to get hers that day. 
 
 Just like your "special Temple name" that you share with the multitude that went through the holy house of creepy hugs and handshakes- minus, the creepy hugs) when you went through.


   


Posted: 04 April 2016 08:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
Avatar
maynardg
Long Timer
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Joined  2014-07-23
 
  
 
WinstonSmith:
Youngsinglerunning:
 I often think about is my patriarchal blessing.  I get so upset that the church would use a Fortune telling blessing to manipulate you to stay.  Like many peoples blessings I was told I would marry a good and wonderful Pristhood holder who would lead us into bla bla bla....
 
I held on to that promise for a very long time.  I dated like crazy at BYU.  I threw myself at not so handsome men and was still shot down.  I'm not unattractive unless you count my horrable desire to be a self made woman with a job.  Also my questioning of church Customs.  I do feel so lucky to have escaped.  
 
My Boyfriend is so sweet and wonderful and NOT MORMON.  Never was never will be.  I am so lucky all those mormon boys shot me down.  How sad it would be if I had gotten married and done as the church wanted me.  Not sure I would have left.   
 
SO  F*CK YOU PB!  You are just another lie told by the LD$ to keep you trapped in their  way of life.  
 
Tell me if your Patriarchal Blessing caused you to question leaving.  
 
 [   ] YSR - you nailed this one. In many ways I view the PB as shackles. My DW will not make any major decision without consulting her PB. Of course her TB ultimately tells her to follow the council of her husband. IMO - this is a potentially dangerous statement, tipping the balance of power in the man's favour. Basically it tells my DW she is property without freewill. So so wrong! 
 
 [   ] My experience in developing relationships outside the Church, is that people are more authentic and genuine. The test of real friendship in the church is if that friendship endures one moving outside of a ward boundry and the friendship remains. I'm like 0/100.
 
After putting the checkmark next to my "two year mission completed", I turned my efforts to browsing the inventory of women in the church. The next step in life was the Mormon "impulse" marriage. Getting married had nothing to do about building a relationship first with a woman---In fact I will admit that my Mormon "impulse" marriage was more about sex then about relationship; and I bet I am not unique marrying for that reason.
 
-----------------
 
When thinking about PBs, I think about 'Mentalism'. The reality about TBs are this:
 
They are mostly vague and many things said are unverifiable;
They are framed like an "If, Then statement"; and on points of specifiecs---If something "good" does not come to pass, it is your fault.
If something appears to have been fulfilled in the PB, then it is disporportionately made known to people, while non-fulfilled points are hidden.
By nature of Mormon lifestyle, a high percentage PBs general statements can be interpreted as being fulfilled.
 
THE IRONY --- PBs may be the single significant thing that the Mormon Church uses to steal the freewill (agency) from its members, while professing that Satan's plan was to steal our agency. 
 
It is F****D UP!
 
 IMVHO, (myself included), I believe many are wondering about the wedding night and getting into each others' "magic undies"(finally, SEX, YES!!  From what I've read about others  --  it's terror about the wedding night  --  having to engage in that "dirty, filthy, nasty experience"  --  how really sad that is.  Have you ever heard of "the better than sex cake"  --  not even in the same solar system?!


   


            
 
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Monday — Let’s Talk about SEX!  
Posted: 28 March 2016 07:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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maynardg
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I just read something interesting on FB.  The world population in 1968 was 3,557,000,000 and is now 7,217,000,000  --  really, who the hell does the statistics(reminds of one of the things that really bugged me about the BofM  --  all those battles and all the dead people(and no archealogical remnants)  --  who the hell took down the numbers  --  was there a royal statistician or did St. Peter take down the numbers and send them to pinnochio joe via his wonderful rock in the hat).
 
I know, when are we going to get to the SEX?!  How many wives did God have to have sex with to have all the spirits needed for the bodies to come to this earth?  He would have to have had sex 24 hrs a day for a couple of thousand years  --  I like sex, but hell, that would be like a job  --  I wonder if he had a daily quota.  Another thing that bugged me was  --  were all the spirits that were assigned to this earth born spiritually before the great/grand council.  If they weren't they didn't get to vote on the life they were going to have  --  just like you don't know what you are getting into when you promise not to say anything about what goes on in the holy house of creepy hugs and handshakes before you even find out  --  and then, it's too late. IMVHO,  if there is a CK, it is going to be a sexfest for the men and women are going to learn what it is like to be "barefoot and pregnant" for eternity.  But, also imvho, it is all HORSESHIT  --  but fun to speculate!
 
Something, maybe unrelated, in imvho, if this life were a movie, it would be a combo of  --  aliens&cowboys+the truman show+night at the museum(all the dioramas)+oblivion+perhaps the marix.
 
Sorry, if the sex part wasn't as stimulating enough as some of you had anticipated and left some of you unsatisfied, but my goal was not to be a tease.


   


Posted: 28 March 2016 08:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
Free2Live
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 Well to begin with gawd was once a mortal or so the wordsmith said. Generally there is only one golden sperm or golden egg in sex that get to show the reward for such efforts involved. However in a celestial perfected state all sperm and all eggs are golden. (not to be confused with some folks in this life that think they have golden balls) You get the picture, no such haploid cell is wasted and thus more spirit prolification miraculously happens. The holey orgasmic ghost blesses and watches over this untimed glory of incarnate conception.
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Posted: 28 March 2016 10:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Why Monday? Why not Tuesday, Wednseday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, yesterday, today, EVERY DAY.....?  
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Posted: 28 March 2016 06:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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WinstonSmith
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Lots of question and thougths come to my mind:
 
1. How long does a spirit embryo take to develop?
 
2. How does spirital labor and delivery work?
 
3. After a spirit is delivered, how many weeks need pass before the gods engage is sex?
 
4. Is there a recommended amount of time a goddess wife should wait between pregnancies?
 
5. If a spiritual embryo takes nine earth months to develop, it would take one goddess wife 5,412,750,000 (5.4 billion years) barefoot and pregnant to supply enough spirit babies for the earth.
 
6. If we assume that a goddes wife is pregnant for 9 months and has a 3 month break, god would need 7,217,000 (7.2 million) goddess wives to produce this many spirits in 1,000 years. 1,031,000 (one million) goddess wives to produce this many spirits in 7,000 years.
 
7. for 7,217,000,000 spirits to be born in a 1,000 year period, god would need to impregnate a goddess wife every, 4.37 seconds  (now I am starting to understand the word "Omnipotent"). Is this even realistic for a god? I read somewhere that if a man is having sex everyday, he will make out an average of 2 ejaculations per day.
 
8. At two ejaculations per day, and godess wife gets pregnate once a year, god can only impregnate 730 goddess wives per year and they are back into the cycle. This make anymore than 730 goddess plural wives impractical.
 
9. at 730 goddess plural wives, it will take 9,886,301 years to produce the current world population.
 
10. I am not sure how the whole 1,000 earth years = 1 Kolob day comes into play 
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Posted: 29 March 2016 05:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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How about the morality of creating something that is imperfect to begin with - and then pretty much throwing them into a Hunger Games type scenario after wiping their memories clean. 
 
It would be like me taking my 4 year old child and kicking them out of the car in East St.  Louis and driving away. 
 
Oh - but I love you!  And if you don't find your way back home I guess you don't love me back. 
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Posted: 29 March 2016 06:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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WinstonSmith:
Lots of question and thougths come to my mind:
 
1. How long does a spirit embryo take to develop?
 
2. How does spirital labor and delivery work?
 
3. After a spirit is delivered, how many weeks need pass before the gods engage is sex?
 
4. Is there a recommended amount of time a goddess wife should wait between pregnancies?
 
5. If a spiritual embryo takes nine earth months to develop, it would take one goddess wife 5,412,750,000 (5.4 billion years) barefoot and pregnant to supply enough spirit babies for the earth.
 
6. If we assume that a goddes wife is pregnant for 9 months and has a 3 month break, god would need 7,217,000 (7.2 million) goddess wives to produce this many spirits in 1,000 years. 1,031,000 (one million) goddess wives to produce this many spirits in 7,000 years.
 
7. for 7,217,000,000 spirits to be born in a 1,000 year period, god would need to impregnate a goddess wife every, 4.37 seconds  (now I am starting to understand the word "Omnipotent"). Is this even realistic for a god? I read somewhere that if a man is having sex everyday, he will make out an average of 2 ejaculations per day.
 
8. At two ejaculations per day, and godess wife gets pregnate once a year, god can only impregnate 730 goddess wives per year and they are back into the cycle. This make anymore than 730 goddess plural wives impractical.
 
9. at 730 goddess plural wives, it will take 9,886,301 years to produce the current world population.
 
10. I am not sure how the whole 1,000 earth years = 1 Kolob day comes into play 
 
 ...and how do you keep these spirit embryos inside the perfect and physical womb, or are there millions of 'em floating around the celestial nursery, hopping back into the  womb (any womb) from time to time like a kangaroo joey does with the pouch?
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Posted: 29 March 2016 07:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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WinstonSmith:
Lots of question and thougths come to my mind:
 
1. How long does a spirit embryo take to develop?
 
2. How does spirital labor and delivery work?
 
3. After a spirit is delivered, how many weeks need pass before the gods engage is sex?
 
4. Is there a recommended amount of time a goddess wife should wait between pregnancies?
 
5. If a spiritual embryo takes nine earth months to develop, it would take one goddess wife 5,412,750,000 (5.4 billion years) barefoot and pregnant to supply enough spirit babies for the earth.
 
6. If we assume that a goddes wife is pregnant for 9 months and has a 3 month break, god would need 7,217,000 (7.2 million) goddess wives to produce this many spirits in 1,000 years. 1,031,000 (one million) goddess wives to produce this many spirits in 7,000 years.
 
7. for 7,217,000,000 spirits to be born in a 1,000 year period, god would need to impregnate a goddess wife every, 4.37 seconds  (now I am starting to understand the word "Omnipotent"). Is this even realistic for a god? I read somewhere that if a man is having sex everyday, he will make out an average of 2 ejaculations per day.
 
8. At two ejaculations per day, and godess wife gets pregnate once a year, god can only impregnate 730 goddess wives per year and they are back into the cycle. This make anymore than 730 goddess plural wives impractical.
 
9. at 730 goddess plural wives, it will take 9,886,301 years to produce the current world population.
 
10. I am not sure how the whole 1,000 earth years = 1 Kolob day comes into play 
 
Maybe you'll be resurrected as a 19 year old man. At that age, most of us could produce more than two ejaculations per day. Back then, the refractory period was maybe 2 minutes. Boom! Back at 'er!  
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Posted: 29 March 2016 08:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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MishMagnet:
How about the morality of creating something that is imperfect to begin with - and then pretty much throwing them into a Hunger Games type scenario after wiping their memories clean. 
 
It would be like me taking my 4 year old child and kicking them out of the car in East St.  Louis and driving away. 
 
Oh - but I love you!  And if you don't find your way back home I guess you don't love me back. 
 
 I think that's the best synopsis of the "Plan of Salvation" I have ever seen! Sussinct and accurate. Bravo! 
 
 


   


Posted: 29 March 2016 03:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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Elder OldDog
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FreeLive:
 Well to begin with gawd was once a mortal or so the wordsmith said. Generally there is only one golden sperm or golden egg in sex that get to show the reward for such efforts involved. However in a celestial perfected state all sperm and all eggs are golden. (not to be confused with some folks in this life that think they have golden balls) You get the picture, no such haploid cell is wasted and thus more spirit prolification miraculously happens. The holey orgasmic ghost blesses and watches over this untimed glory of incarnate conception.
 
 Not only are all ghawd's spermatoza golden, they also have wings!  Every winged sperm finds a 'home'!!  So he only has to have sex a few times a month...
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Posted: 29 March 2016 05:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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MishMagnet:
How about the morality of creating something that is imperfect to begin with - and then pretty much throwing them into a Hunger Games type scenario after wiping their memories clean. 
 
It would be like me taking my 4 year old child and kicking them out of the car in East St.  Louis and driving away. 
 
Oh - but I love you!  And if you don't find your way back home I guess you don't love me back. 
 
 What a great take MishMagnet!  I hard-copied your plan of salvation synopsis.
 
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 30 March 2016 01:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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Celestial Wedgie
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MishMagnet:
How about the morality of creating something that is imperfect to begin with - and then pretty much throwing them into a Hunger Games type scenario after wiping their memories clean. 
 
It would be like me taking my 4 year old child and kicking them out of the car in East St.  Louis and driving away. 
 
Oh - but I love you!  And if you don't find your way back home I guess you don't love me back. 
 
  + 
 
This is one of the best summaries ever! 


   


Posted: 01 April 2016 04:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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maynardg
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Matter Unorganized:
Why Monday? Why not Tuesday, Wednseday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, yesterday, today, EVERY DAY.....?  
 
 Talking about it or doing it?  If you are doing it that many days a week  --  I AM JEALOUS!  You must be taking a few vitamin B12 shots to have all that energy!


   


Posted: 01 April 2016 08:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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Elder OldDog:
FreeLive:
 Well to begin with gawd was once a mortal or so the wordsmith said. Generally there is only one golden sperm or golden egg in sex that get to show the reward for such efforts involved. However in a celestial perfected state all sperm and all eggs are golden. (not to be confused with some folks in this life that think they have golden balls) You get the picture, no such haploid cell is wasted and thus more spirit prolification miraculously happens. The holey orgasmic ghost blesses and watches over this untimed glory of incarnate conception.
 
 Not only are all ghawd's spermatoza golden, they also have wings!  Every winged sperm finds a 'home'!!  So he only has to have sex a few times a month...
 
 Now the question is how many sperm are in a perfect god ejaculation!?. I read that around 180 million sperm are average for the human male load.
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Posted: 04 April 2016 08:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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maynardg
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Maybe there's a machine(not very sexually exciting) kind of like the milking machines for cows.  There's enough action to cause ejaculation and then the ejaculate is separated and then implanted into the CK wife incubators.  What a bummer deal  --  live a CK life to be able to have CK sex with a multitude of CK wives, only to be hooked up to an ejaculation machine!.  KARMA!  Pinocchio joe is going to be pissed! 

   


            
 
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Twin Falls Billboard

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My story is now over on Mormon Think  
Posted: 04 April 2016 05:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
Bruce A Holt
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The audio of my DC is there, too. Unfortunately the recorder battery died (and it was fully charged) seconds before I was excused so they could deliberate my fate so you won't get the verdict. I didn't expect the DC to go so long. My first one, years ago, was half as long.
 
Thanks for inviting me, MT Editors! 
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Posted: 04 April 2016 06:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Jon Marshall
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Listened to your audio file. Very well spoken. You might have planted some seeds in their heads to actually not DOUBT their DOUBT's.   Your post was not Teaching. It was your feelings, your words.   
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Posted: 04 April 2016 07:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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I just finished reading your story over on Mormon Think. I have not had time to listen to the audio.
 
My thoughts are that the Church just opened a "Pandora's Box" --- Will the witch hunts begin?
 
I am going to make a prediction about myself---At some point I will be excommunicated as an apostate---Why? For telling (teaching) my own kids why I believe JS was a "fraud".
 
Could this reallyy happen? I think it can and ultimately will occur  ---Pandora's Box has been opened. 
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Posted: 04 April 2016 07:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Thanks for sharing it. 

   


Posted: 04 April 2016 10:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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WinstonSmith:
I just finished reading your story over on Mormon Think. I have not had time to listen to the audio.
 
My thoughts are that the Church just opened a "Pandora's Box" --- Will the witch hunts begin?
 
I am going to make a prediction about myself---At some point I will be excommunicated as an apostate---Why? For telling (teaching) my own kids why I believe JS was a "fraud".
 
Could this reallyy happen? I think it can and ultimately will occur  ---Pandora's Box has been opened. 
 
Okay!!! I just finished listening to the audio. Thank you and thanks to Mormon Think for making this available. 
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What else can you call it, but the GREAT MANIPULATION!  
Posted: 04 April 2016 07:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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I no longer make it a part of my TV viewing  --  the semi-annual HORSESHIT seminars from the fossil 15 penishood holders et al!  But (I don't remember what sessions)  one with Pres. Eyring and some other penishood holder.  I have to say that when I was a TBMorgbot, I did this and it seems as I got/get older, it happened/happens more frequently  --  when some event happens, I turn into an emotional mess(Ex.  the movie Taking Chance, A League of Their Own when they all come together at the baseball hall of fame, and other similar situations.  But now I know that it has nothing to do with whether or not it is true or not, like I did when I was imprisoned in the morg).  So, I am listening to these two men and both of them start getting teary eyed and all the rest of that shit  --  on national TV and I'm thinking  --  when I was a rabid TBmorgbot, I would be all teary eyed as well(and there were times when I was the speaker, I would turn into an emotional mess)  --  but now that I know that the morg is nothing more than a great big pile of stinking HORSESHIT  --  this really pisses me off  --  my TBMDW and family are all watching these men blubber and they're thinking  --  inspired men of God!
Every six months, my TBMDW+family listens to this HORSESHIT and that solidifies in their morgbot brains and protracts their morgbot comas  --  he's/she's teary eyed  --  oh my, the word of god from the chosen ones.  HORSESHIT!!!!!!!
Now that the morg is no longer a part of my life  --  I know the truth and it has set me free  --  I have seen the light  --  I have seen behind the curtain and IMVHO, I believe that these people should receive academy awards for best actors and actresses for the best performance at the sessions of HORSESHIT seminars.  I also believe that my family will continue to be entrenched in the morg as long as they get this stuff every six month because for them this behavior signifies spiritual power.
In a number of posts, I have referred to the "morg fixes"(just like drugs) that morgbots get every Sunday and overdoses at the general HORSESHIT seminars every six months.  I believe in KARMA, and in MVHO, I believe someday the HORSESHIT is going to hit the fan and morgbots are going to be amazed and lost and just maybe as pissed as I was when I learned the truth that set me free and that is/will be ...  PRICELESS!
Nothing short of EMOTIONAL MANIPULATION FROM THE GREATEST EMOTIONAL TERRORIST IN THE LAND  --  THE MORG!!


   


Posted: 04 April 2016 07:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Posted: 04 April 2016 08:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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MU, I hadn't even got warmed up yet  --  it's only Monday morning! 

   


Posted: 04 April 2016 02:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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We are a patient group my son, so take your time..... 

   


Posted: 04 April 2016 02:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Maynard, 
 
 
You joined after this discussion in 2011 about Heartsell®.
and our own Jeff Ricks was part of this discussion which lead to a MormonDiscussion interview  (their site is currently down so no linky today). 
 
I'm afraid that if you're not already upset about manipulation, 
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DC (aka HCC aka “Court of Love”) is tonight! Wish me luck.  
Posted: 30 March 2016 06:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
Bruce A Holt
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I'd really hate to put on a defense that's too convincing, but in my notes I have a few jabs I'll take at my SP. Maybe that will cement his already made up mind.
 
I sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo want to be out and if you've read my prior posts, you know excommunication rather than resignation is my only way out.
 
I'm looking forward to some underwear shopping... 
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Posted: 30 March 2016 07:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Bruce A Holt:
I'd really hate to put on a defense that's too convincing, but in my notes I have a few jabs I'll take at my SP. Maybe that will cement his already made up mind.
 
I sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo want to be out and if you've read my prior posts, you know excommunication rather than resignation is my only way out.
 
I'm looking forward to some underwear shopping... 
 
Good luck!
 
I hope that it goes the way you wish
 
[   ]My wife teases me because I have enjoyed this far more than one should. I buy new kinds of underwear all the time.
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Posted: 30 March 2016 07:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Kevin:
Bruce A Holt:
I'd really hate to put on a defense that's too convincing, but in my notes I have a few jabs I'll take at my SP. Maybe that will cement his already made up mind.
 
I sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo want to be out and if you've read my prior posts, you know excommunication rather than resignation is my only way out.
 
I'm looking forward to some underwear shopping... 
 
Good luck!
 
I hope that it goes the way you wish
 
[   ]My wife teases me because I have enjoyed this far more than one should. I buy new kinds of underwear all the time.
 
Just bought some new skivvies yesterday! Not the "authorized pattern" either.
 
 
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Posted: 30 March 2016 07:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Good luck, Bruce.  Wish I could buy you a beer afterward...
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Posted: 30 March 2016 07:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Good luck!
 
Maybe a few on the council can learn a thing or two from you.  I imagine more than a few brethren who have sat on those councils are now also postmos. 
 
 


   


Posted: 30 March 2016 08:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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god dammit Bruce!  give em hell!  lol, they are such a joke, enjoy yourself.
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Posted: 30 March 2016 08:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Bruce A Holt:
I'd really hate to put on a defense that's too convincing, but in my notes I have a few jabs I'll take at my SP. Maybe that will cement his already made up mind.
 
I sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo want to be out and if you've read my prior posts, you know excommunication rather than resignation is my only way out.
 
I'm looking forward to some underwear shopping... 
 
 Oh yes--anti-mormon underwear (like real people wear) are very cool!
 
I hope you take at least two recorders in.  It might be nice to have this on tape. 
 
Enjoy the drama! You have worked hard for this.  
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 30 March 2016 08:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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Give 'em hell!!-- Didn't see LD's post...I still mean it!
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“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
~Epicurus
__________________________________________


   


Posted: 30 March 2016 08:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
Avatar
Morethanmo
Long Timer
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Bruce A Holt:
I'd really hate to put on a defense that's too convincing, but in my notes I have a few jabs I'll take at my SP. Maybe that will cement his already made up mind.
 
I sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo want to be out and if you've read my prior posts, you know excommunication rather than resignation is my only way out.
 
I'm looking forward to some underwear shopping... 
 
 It would be great if those jabs were backed up with quotes from the GAs....you could make Sunday School handouts!
 Signature
__________________________________________

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
~Epicurus
__________________________________________


   


Posted: 30 March 2016 11:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
former victim
Long Timer
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Joined  2010-11-25
 
  
 
If it were me, I wouldn't give this so called "court" the time of day. I would however, merely as a suggestion now, casually lay my pocket phone on my notes and listen to the recording a few years down the road, with a cold brew in hand, to toast the occasion. Have fun! 

   


Posted: 30 March 2016 03:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
Avatar
John E. Baker, III [was GraciesDaddy]
Long Timer
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Joined  2008-11-15
 
  
 
Bruce A Holt:
I'd really hate to put on a defense that's too convincing, but in my notes I have a few jabs I'll take at my SP. Maybe that will cement his already made up mind.
 
I sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo want to be out and if you've read my prior posts, you know excommunication rather than resignation is my only way out.
 
I'm looking forward to some underwear shopping... 
 
Go with the boxer-briefs.  They are über-comfortable.  
 Signature
The above post is the perspective and experience of a Never-Mo offered in support of the members of PostMormon.org and should be treated as such.


   


Posted: 30 March 2016 03:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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Celestial Wedgie
Long Timer
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Joined  2010-10-03
 
  
 
Bruce, I'm probably too late to catch you before the main event, but good luck tonight! May your dream come true (i.e., make them squirm and come leave with official excommunication).  [<-- in lieu of "cheers"] 

   


Posted: 31 March 2016 05:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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Kevin2
Jr. Member
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Joined  2016-02-03
 
  
 
I'm dying to hear how this went
 Signature
“And now that you don’t have to be perfect, you can be good.” -John Steinbeck


   


Posted: 31 March 2016 07:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
Bruce A Holt
Member
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Joined  2014-04-03
 
  
 
The DC was scheduled for 7:00 pm but my SP asked me to be there at 6:30 pm. I arrived at the Stake Center about 10 minutes late. When I walked in, the SP burst out of the Stake Offices door, saw me, relaxed and invited me into his office. He asked if anything had changed since our last discussion. I said nothing had. He bore his testimony briefly and asked me to wait in his office. He muted his phone and I turned mine off. He has a door that connects into the High Council Room and that's where he went. I assume he was giving instructions on how the DC was to proceed and making assignments to certain High Councilmen (who was going to make sure the church's interests were protected, who would make sure mine were, etc.). It took over 15 minutes.
 
Meanwhile, I turned on my personal recorder and placed it in the leather folder I had brought with me and took out of the folder my notes.
 
When they were ready I was invited in (don't you love Mo-speak? "Invited", hehe!). SP gave a short introduction and stated the purpose for the DC and then allowed each of the men in the room to introduce themselves. Then I was given whatever time I wanted to speak to the group.
 
I read parts of the FB post that was the cause of this ruckus and explained my intentions in making the post in the first place. I mentioned my reading project (all LDS published books and web sites). I mentioned the Essays. I read portions of Elder Ballard's CES talk and reiterated that each one of those present should become familiar with the Essays, "like the back of their hands".
 
Then the group was allowed to ask questions, which I answered honestly and directly.
 
I was excused from the room.
 
When I was brought back in, the determination was given (excommunication for apostate behavior) and I had the pleasure of walking around the room to each man to shake their hands individually.
 
When I arrived home and gave the results to my TBM wife, she said, "Well, if anyone messes with you about it, send them to me. I'll set them straight. You're a good man and a good husband."
 
I AM OUT!!!!!!!!! Not humiliated. Stood tall. Defended my view. I AM OUT!!!!!! 
 Signature
Science is a way to call the bluff of those who only pretend to knowledge. If we’re true to its values, it can tell us when we’re being lied to. It provides a mid-course correction to our mistakes. - Carl Sagan


   


Posted: 31 March 2016 07:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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Celestial Wedgie
Long Timer
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Joined  2010-10-03
 
  
 
 
 
Congratulations, Bruce! You did it and you stayed on the course you yourself chose. Congratulations on the choice and the outcome!
 
 
 
ETA: I love happy endings!


   


Posted: 31 March 2016 07:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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bradspencer74
Long Timer
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Joined  2010-01-18
 
  
 
Congrats.  I greet you in the 5 points of fellowship into the Apostate kingdom of REALITY.
 Signature
“Fitness is my religion and the gym is my temple” Fitness God 3:16
The Gym is my Church.  My sweat is my prayers.  My strength is my salvation.


   


Posted: 31 March 2016 07:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
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Jon Marshall
Sr. Member
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Joined  2012-08-22
 
  
 
Congrats on getting out. I am sure that is whats going to happen to me if I ever give them the satisfaction of a Court of Love. I just might meet them. Depending on the circumstances and how they approach me. 
 
Are you going to type of the whole conversation from your recorder??
 
Your wife sounds great. Congrats again. 
 Signature http://www.jonathankmarshall.blogspot.com


   


Posted: 31 March 2016 07:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
Avatar
Lloyd Dobler
Long Timer
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Joined  2009-07-27
 
  
 
and most importatnly, your wife is on your side and I think this is going to go a long way in helping her leave the church.  
 
what questions did they ask you?  Did you wind up getting a good recording? 
 Signature
Vindicated, I am selfish, I am wrong, I am right
I swear I’m right, swear I knew it all along
And I am flawed
but I am cleaning up so well
I am seeing in me now the things you swore, you saw yourself

Vindicated
Dashboard Confessionalhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDCED-qQExc


   


Posted: 31 March 2016 07:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
moronie-balonie
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRank
Joined  2013-01-09
 
  
 
Wow! I am so happy for you.  I have been anxiously checking here all morning hoping to see your report.  
 
I hope that this will create some serious reflection on your wife's part.  My DH left the church first, and I was so stressed about all the crap I had been raised to believe about him not being "worthy", and that I should divorce him, that I finally decided to see what it was about the church that he disagreed so vehemently with.  I totally disagreed with the "not worthy" that I had been led to believe ALL apostates were.  I loved him and felt I owed it to him to try and see things from his perspective.  We all know where my studies led.... I hope your wife has a similar response.  


   


Posted: 31 March 2016 07:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
Long Timer
RankRankRankRankRank
Joined  2010-05-22
 
  
 
Bruce A Holt:
The DC was scheduled for 7:00 pm but my SP asked me to be there at 6:30 pm. I arrived at the Stake Center about 10 minutes late. When I walked in, the SP burst out of the Stake Offices door, saw me, relaxed and invited me into his office. He asked if anything had changed since our last discussion. I said nothing had. He bore his testimony briefly and asked me to wait in his office. He muted his phone and I turned mine off. He has a door that connects into the High Council Room and that's where he went. I assume he was giving instructions on how the DC was to proceed and making assignments to certain High Councilmen (who was going to make sure the church's interests were protected, who would make sure mine were, etc.). It took over 15 minutes.
 
Meanwhile, I turned on my personal recorder and placed it in the leather folder I had brought with me and took out of the folder my notes.
 
When they were ready I was invited in (don't you love Mo-speak? "Invited", hehe!). SP gave a short introduction and stated the purpose for the DC and then allowed each of the men in the room to introduce themselves. Then I was given whatever time I wanted to speak to the group.
 
I read parts of the FB post that was the cause of this ruckus and explained my intentions in making the post in the first place. I mentioned my reading project (all LDS published books and web sites). I mentioned the Essays. I read portions of Elder Ballard's CES talk and reiterated that each one of those present should become familiar with the Essays, "like the back of their hands".
 
Then the group was allowed to ask questions, which I answered honestly and directly.
 
I was excused from the room.
 
When I was brought back in, the determination was given (excommunication for apostate behavior) and I had the pleasure of walking around the room to each man to shake their hands individually.
 
When I arrived home and gave the results to my TBM wife, she said, "Well, if anyone messes with you about it, send them to me. I'll set them straight. You're a good man and a good husband."
 
I AM OUT!!!!!!!!! Not humiliated. Stood tall. Defended my view. I AM OUT!!!!!! 
 What a great and understanding wife you have--lucky you!  Great Job Bruce Holt!  Are you going to send each man a thank note for assisting in your new life of freedom and authenticity?
 
 Signature
I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 31 March 2016 07:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]   

   
 
Bruce A Holt
Member
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Joined  2014-04-03
 
  
 
Let me answer a couple of questions asked so far:
 
1) Are you going to type of the whole conversation from your recorder?
    No. Too much typing for a non-typist. I have to make sure the recording is good and if it is, I'll drop the file (or files) into my Google Drive and share it with those who might be interested.
 
2) What questions did they ask you?  Did you wind up getting a good recording?
    See 1) above
 
3) Are you going to send each man a thank note for assisting in your new life of freedom and authenticity?
    Yes. Included will be links to all the Essays and to Ballard's talk to the CES staff. 
 Signature
Science is a way to call the bluff of those who only pretend to knowledge. If we’re true to its values, it can tell us when we’re being lied to. It provides a mid-course correction to our mistakes. - Carl Sagan


   


Posted: 31 March 2016 07:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]   

   
 
Avatar
Lloyd Dobler
Long Timer
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Joined  2009-07-27
 
  
 
Bruce A Holt:
Let me answer a couple of questions asked so far:
 
1) Are you going to type of the whole conversation from your recorder?
    No. Too much typing for a non-typist. I have to make sure the recording is good and if it is, I'll drop the file (or files) into my Google Drive and share it with those who might be interested.
 
2) What questions did they ask you?  Did you wind up getting a good recording?
    See 1) above
 
3) Are you going to send each man a thank note for assisting in your new life of freedom and authenticity?
    Yes. Included will be links to all the Essays and to Ballard's talk to the CES staff. 
 
 That is freaking hilarious.  
 
 
 Signature
Vindicated, I am selfish, I am wrong, I am right
I swear I’m right, swear I knew it all along
And I am flawed
but I am cleaning up so well
I am seeing in me now the things you swore, you saw yourself

Vindicated
Dashboard Confessionalhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDCED-qQExc


   


Posted: 31 March 2016 08:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]   

   
 
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LostInParadise
Sr. Member
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Joined  2015-12-08
 
  
 
Congratulations, Bruce!
 
 Signature
Once mormon, twice shy.


   


Posted: 31 March 2016 10:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]   

   
 
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tapirrider
Jr. Member
RankRank
Joined  2012-07-01
 
  
 
Good to hear how your wife has responded.  

   


Posted: 31 March 2016 10:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized
Long Timer
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Joined  2011-01-22
 
  
 
Good going, Bruce! And your wife is aces. That's freakin' great.
 Signature
You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler


   


Posted: 31 March 2016 12:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]   

   
 
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MormonThink
Long Timer
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Joined  2012-11-28
 
  
 
Welcome to the club Bruce.  If you want your story immortalized for all time and eternity, you can join our wall of infamy.  Email me if interested.  .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)
 
http://www.mormonthink.com/personalstories2.htm


   


Posted: 31 March 2016 01:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]   

   
 
Flora4
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRank
Joined  2014-03-30
 
  
 
John E. Baker, III [was GraciesDaddy]" date="1459372412"]
Bruce A Holt:
I'd really hate to put on a defense that's too convincing, but in my notes I have a few jabs I'll take at my SP. Maybe that will cement his already made up mind.
 
I sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo want to be out and if you've read my prior posts, you know excommunication rather than resignation is my only way out.
 
I'm looking forward to some underwear shopping... 
 
Go with the boxer-briefs.  They are über-comfortable.  
 
 
 
I second the recommendation for boxer-briefs.  They can be very 'uplifting' if you find ones with the right amount of elastic.  


   


Posted: 31 March 2016 04:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]   

   
 
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Winyan
Long Timer
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Joined  2007-10-31
 
  
 
Congratulations on getting out the way you wanted to. 

   


Posted: 31 March 2016 06:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
Long Timer
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Joined  2010-05-22
 
  
 
Wear the underwear you love!  But...from this woman's point of view, I think boxers--that are not too baggy--are sexy.  
 Signature
I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 01 April 2016 09:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]   

   
 
Free2Live
Long Timer
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Joined  2012-09-01
 
  
 
Congratulations! Having a Certificate of Graduation is awesome.
 
 Signature
One is as committed into testimony as much as they pay into the belief in dollars, time, talent and energy. Afterall, it has to be true once you have signed the lifetime subscription and you have a track record to defend.


   


Posted: 04 April 2016 07:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]   

   
 
Bat1st
Sr. Member
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Joined  2010-01-23
 
  
 
I love happy endings... 

   


            
 
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