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OCTOBER CONFERENCE
"Past, Present, and Possibilities"
Oct. 18-20, 2013
Financial Report for 2011 to Date
Financial Report for 2010 to Date
Financial Report for 2009
Twin Falls Newspaper Article
Twin Falls Billboard
Financial Report for 2009 to Date
The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]
Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]
Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]
Portland Oregon meetup
[Portland Post-Mor...]
Las Vegas March Meetup! Sunday 16th 1pm
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...]
General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
[Palmetto Post-Mor...]
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (3/2)
[San Francisco Bay...]
March Get Together
[Idaho Falls Post-...]
San Diego lunch this Sunday at noon!
[San Diego Post-Mo...]
March 2nd 2014-Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series
[Southern Utah Pos...]
FEB 22 - First ever Boston Meeting!
[Boston, MA Post-M...]
Every Sunday in Utah
[Salt Lake City Po...]
February Meetup Sunday the 16th 2:00pm Grand Cafe at Sunset Station
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...]
Secret FB group and dinner social
[East Tennessee Po...]
Feb 2nd Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series
[Southern Utah Pos...]
General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
Swearing Elder
General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
dovahkiyn
February Meetup Sunday the 16th 2:00pm Grand Cafe at Sunset Station
onendagus
Visitors welcome !
priorvej12
Las Vegas meetup Sun Jan 12th 1pm at Milos in Boulder City
onendagus
January 5th- Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series
gypsyrose
Book of Mormon Tories
by Tom Donofrio
Book of Mormon Tories
by Nogginus Skepticalus
Native American DNA
by GTM
Ongoing Monthly Gatherings!
Reuben
Ongoing Monthly Gatherings!
Virginia Steve
CALM meet up for June
4bagel
Revised NW Women's Retreat Announcement
lunaverse
Austin Fall Party
lightrider702
Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
by Timo
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by ExMoNemo
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by Mikki B
Resignation Letter to My Family
Mikki B
Resignation Letter to My Family
Waveoftruth
Resignation Letter to My Family
In search of Truth
Carolina PostMo Night: “The Master"
Swearing Elder
Washington D.C. Post-Mormon Lunch - August 28
freckles
Resignation Letter to My Family
INRETROSPECT
Financial Report for 2011 to Date
by Jeff Ricks
Resignation Letter to My Family
pennw
Home Our Community
Discussion Forums
· The Community Forum
Post-Mormon Chapters
Chapters in Utah
Cache Valley Post-Mormons
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16 of 1089 « First Prev 14 15 16 17 18 Next Last »
Topic Title Replies Views Latest Post Info
Joseph and Emma are really amazing people. Just look at who they are related to.
Author: rain 9 526
Posted: 01-06-2014 10:27 AM
Author: Tessa
Why are Republicans devolving?
Author: Kori 32 1094
Posted: 01-06-2014 08:17 AM
Author: Kori
The nutters are emerging from their caves in UT, Homophobic Cops call for uprising
Author: Kori 18 773
Posted: 01-06-2014 08:15 AM
Author: former victim
Insanity is the basis for the Book of Mormon
Author: Nephi 5 452
Posted: 01-06-2014 06:09 AM
Author: OldSoul
Can’t tell if I should laugh or gag!
Author: barelythere 12 981
Posted: 01-05-2014 10:06 PM
Author: Gypsy Soul
Latter days Saints should put to dead the covenant breakers Discourse
Author: incawhite 3 470
Posted: 01-05-2014 05:38 PM
Author: Felix
My Former Bishop Busted for Soliciting Sex with Minor
Author: sincere 4 939
Posted: 01-05-2014 04:00 PM
Author: Elder OldDog
Doctrine, or just Folk Belief?
Author: Nephi 2 405
Posted: 01-05-2014 03:37 PM
Author: Kori
The downside of being Mrs. Jesus Christ…
Author: Nephi 5 384
Posted: 01-05-2014 02:56 PM
Author: Kori
Leaving Sacrament Early Right After Baby Blessing?
Author: NOMOREMO 34 1111
Posted: 01-05-2014 01:45 PM
Author: wesmanlv
Dark Matter isn’t evil…but the earth is surrounded by a belt of it.
Author: Tessa 1 199
Posted: 01-05-2014 11:36 AM
Author: Elder OldDog
Historical figure commands “tens of Thousands” ?
Author: Nephi 4 355
Posted: 01-05-2014 11:20 AM
Author: rain
Off Topic – Random historical thoughts on 2014
Author: Phillip (hagiasophia) 8 473
Posted: 01-05-2014 08:46 AM
Author: Tessa
let not the right hand know what the left hand is doing…
Author: Nephi 0 259
Posted: 01-05-2014 08:16 AM
Author: Nephi
Interview With A Psychopath Like Jeffs, Smith Or Young
Author: josephs myth 5 387
Posted: 01-05-2014 08:06 AM
Author: kinderhooker
Mormon funeral question
Author: Curious NeverMo 2 335
Posted: 01-04-2014 11:53 PM
Author: Curious NeverMo
Las Vegas meetup Sun Jan 12th 1pm at Milos in Boulder City
Author: onendagus 0 309
Posted: 01-04-2014 02:04 PM
Author: onendagus
R Mormons Redeemable 2?
Author: josephs myth 6 447
Posted: 01-04-2014 08:55 AM
Author: Brad (ZeeZrom)
Feeling Alone?
Author: mnemosyne 7 474
Posted: 01-03-2014 10:26 PM
Author: 4thNephite
Spaulding Manuscript Article on lds.org - Is it new? Did I miss the discussion of this one?
Author: Truth Matters 18 872
Posted: 01-03-2014 09:09 PM
Author: firefighter007
TSCC helping Anti-mormons?
Author: Matter Unorganized 7 531
Posted: 01-03-2014 06:48 PM
Author: YesIAmAPyr8
January 5th Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series
Author: skeptic 5 409
Posted: 01-03-2014 01:06 PM
Author: skeptic
Newsweek Mormon Similarities
Author: josephs myth 0 410
Posted: 01-03-2014 09:20 AM
Author: josephs myth
SLC Billboard features mormons, ex-mormons, atheists
Author: wesmanlv 6 794
Posted: 01-02-2014 09:55 PM
Author: Lord of Darkness
“Let it Go” relating to leaving mormonism
Author: haylee 5 495
Posted: 01-02-2014 09:44 PM
Author: haylee
So what changed…..
Author: WanderingGeek 8 552
Posted: 01-02-2014 09:43 PM
Author: Tessa
Hit with Guilt all a sudden
Author: Youngsinglerunning 2 314
Posted: 01-02-2014 09:33 PM
Author: Tessa
Is the Morg Intentionally Throwing This Season?
Author: Mountainhippie 11 700
Posted: 01-02-2014 06:45 PM
Author: GraciesDaddy
I asked my HT for his thoughts on the history essays thus far… his reply…
Author: firefighter007 8 742
Posted: 01-02-2014 05:42 PM
Author: 4thNephite
Was Jesus lying when he said we can move mountains with faith? ( 1 2)
Author: Kori 69 2277
Posted: 01-02-2014 04:11 PM
Author: Jeff Ricks
What do to? . . . or shake me that works too.
Author: barelythere 18 951
Posted: 01-02-2014 01:17 PM
Author: Free2Live
Rock in a Hat on lds.org
Author: Lloyd Dobler 24 1396
Posted: 01-02-2014 12:26 PM
Author: Free2Live
Monson’s Refusal toTestify
Author: incawhite 8 1129
Posted: 01-02-2014 11:58 AM
Author: Celestial Wedgie
Who do you believe?
Author: Kori 8 592
Posted: 01-02-2014 11:54 AM
Author: Tessa
No. I’m Sorry. I Don’t Want to Tour the New Mormon Temple with You
Author: Dadsprimalscream 10 633
Posted: 01-02-2014 11:49 AM
Author: Tessa
16 of 1089 « First Prev 14 15 16 17 18 Next Last »
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Muffin Top
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"Katie Finds a Better Way": A Story for the "Friend" and Musicalkate (New Link)
by DrW
UPDATE on Seminary Problems
by Edmond Dantès
Just when things start to go well.......
by finex
Wine was different in Jesus time
by finex
Depression After Resignation
by finex
Church asks activist group to reconsider plans to protest GC
by Brad (ZeeZrom)
Spin off Post "Cleaning House" - Genealogy
by quietlydifferent
Cleaning House
by blueazure
I finally bumped into some Mormon missionaries!
by Matter Unorganized
Scientology Ripped Family Apart-- Doubting (Could have an article like this on the news every night about Mormonism)
by Strong Free & Thankful
Big Bang Theory Proven--Validation for this Scientist's Life's Work--Beautiful!
by blueazure
Knock on the Door and Bad Memory
by WinstonSmith
I could use some help!
by son of perdition
Looking for fellow lost souls
by Ninon de Lenclos
Mormon Church sending people DNA test kits but refusing to comment on results?
by OldSoul
Couldn't a real prophet find that plane?
by Bold Wish
I need help more than LDS corp.
by victim
Mormon kitsch
by huehuetenango
A Daring Statement by an 8-year-old
by haylee
This is Hard
by Tincan
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OCTOBER CONFERENCE
"Past, Present, and Possibilities"
Oct. 18-20, 2013
Financial Report for 2011 to Date
Financial Report for 2010 to Date
Financial Report for 2009
Twin Falls Newspaper Article
Twin Falls Billboard
Financial Report for 2009 to Date
The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]
Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]
Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]
Portland Oregon meetup
[Portland Post-Mor...]
Las Vegas March Meetup! Sunday 16th 1pm
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...]
General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
[Palmetto Post-Mor...]
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (3/2)
[San Francisco Bay...]
March Get Together
[Idaho Falls Post-...]
San Diego lunch this Sunday at noon!
[San Diego Post-Mo...]
March 2nd 2014-Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series
[Southern Utah Pos...]
FEB 22 - First ever Boston Meeting!
[Boston, MA Post-M...]
Every Sunday in Utah
[Salt Lake City Po...]
February Meetup Sunday the 16th 2:00pm Grand Cafe at Sunset Station
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...]
Secret FB group and dinner social
[East Tennessee Po...]
Feb 2nd Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series
[Southern Utah Pos...]
General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
Swearing Elder
General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
dovahkiyn
February Meetup Sunday the 16th 2:00pm Grand Cafe at Sunset Station
onendagus
Visitors welcome !
priorvej12
Las Vegas meetup Sun Jan 12th 1pm at Milos in Boulder City
onendagus
January 5th- Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series
gypsyrose
Book of Mormon Tories
by Tom Donofrio
Book of Mormon Tories
by Nogginus Skepticalus
Native American DNA
by GTM
Ongoing Monthly Gatherings!
Reuben
Ongoing Monthly Gatherings!
Virginia Steve
CALM meet up for June
4bagel
Revised NW Women's Retreat Announcement
lunaverse
Austin Fall Party
lightrider702
Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
by Timo
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by ExMoNemo
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by Mikki B
Resignation Letter to My Family
Mikki B
Resignation Letter to My Family
Waveoftruth
Resignation Letter to My Family
In search of Truth
Carolina PostMo Night: “The Master"
Swearing Elder
Washington D.C. Post-Mormon Lunch - August 28
freckles
Resignation Letter to My Family
INRETROSPECT
Financial Report for 2011 to Date
by Jeff Ricks
Resignation Letter to My Family
pennw
Home Our Community
Discussion Forums
· The Community Forum
Post-Mormon Chapters
Chapters in Utah
Cache Valley Post-Mormons
Calm of N. Davis County and Weber County Post-Mormons
Calm of South Davis County Post-Mormons
Calm of Utah County Post-Mormons
Long Valley Post-Mormons
Millard County Post-Mormons
New Hope Post-Mormons of Weber Co.
Salt Lake City Post-Mormons
Sanpete County Post-Mormons
Southern Utah Post Mormon Association
Uintah Basin Post-Mormons
USU Post-Mormons
Other chapters in the USA
Chapters in Canada
Calgary Post-Mormons
Canada Edmonton Post-Mormon
Fraser Valley Post-Mormons
GTA Canada Post-Mormons
Lethbridge Canada Post-Mormons
Victoria British Columbia Post-Mormons
Chapters in Europe
Denmark Post-Mormons
France Post-Mormons
North United Kingdom Post-Mormons
Norway Post Mormons
Scotland Post-Mormons
Sweden Post-Mormons
Switzerland Post-Mormons
UK Post-Mormons
All other chapters
New Zealand Post-Mormons
Post-Mormons Down Under
World Map of Chapter Locations
Starting a Post Mormon Chapter FAQ
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It Gets Better!
Post-Mormon Magazine
Peep-Stone Magazine
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Staff Members Blog
Board of Trustees Blog
Forum Home > Member Forums > The Community Forum
It gets better! Resources to help with coping
House Rules for posting on this website
Why is there sometimes anger here?
Glossary of Post-Mormon Terms
Frequently Asked Questions
Advanced Search
14 of 1089 « First Prev 12 13 14 15 16 Next Last »
Topic Title Replies Views Latest Post Info
Deleting…a bit too messy.
Author: Tessa 2 379
Posted: 01-16-2014 06:12 PM
Author: Elder OldDog
Mary Whitmer, a 12th witness
Author: Elder OldDog 6 793
Posted: 01-16-2014 05:37 PM
Author: Tessa
Excellent advice for those with a still believing spouse
Author: Phillip (hagiasophia) 6 470
Posted: 01-16-2014 04:05 PM
Author: Robby Sunshine
New confession and separation from past racist doctrine
Author: Morpheus 14 773
Posted: 01-16-2014 11:29 AM
Author: Penguin
Utah Polygamy On TV
Author: josephs myth 7 677
Posted: 01-16-2014 06:49 AM
Author: former victim
Johns Hopkins study says caffeine improves memory.
Author: Tessa 6 368
Posted: 01-16-2014 06:30 AM
Author: Nephi
Mormon Manipulated
Author: josephs myth 0 323
Posted: 01-16-2014 05:46 AM
Author: josephs myth
Tea Party Nutters Planning A Revolution: ‘Some People May Die’
Author: Kori 37 1930
Posted: 01-15-2014 11:40 PM
Author: Felix
Irony Of The Plane Crash And The Rescue Truck
Author: josephs myth 4 935
Posted: 01-15-2014 11:40 PM
Author: josephs myth
Violence and Death by the Millions in the Name of Christ and Christianity
Author: Bluegrasser 19 641
Posted: 01-15-2014 11:14 PM
Author: Tessa
Mormon Missionary Crisis
Author: josephs myth 17 963
Posted: 01-15-2014 09:39 PM
Author: huehuetenango
My wife and I are atheists, but our daughter wants to be baptised Catholic …
Author: Phillip (hagiasophia) 4 366
Posted: 01-15-2014 08:34 PM
Author: Tessa
First Encounter with Missionaries
Author: smithandthewestons 36 1865
Posted: 01-15-2014 08:17 PM
Author: Celestial Wedgie
Don’t talk to our prospective missionaries!
Author: Nephi 10 1000
Posted: 01-15-2014 07:34 PM
Author: Baroque Dust
My Dad is an Unregistered, Unprosecuted Sex Offender - Please Help
Author: Baroque Dust 0 346
Posted: 01-15-2014 06:14 PM
Author: Baroque Dust
So Joseph’s Myth is bogus. Now what?
Author: Kori 9 425
Posted: 01-15-2014 03:43 PM
Author: Brad (ZeeZrom)
HELP! I HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO TEACH MY FAMILY
Author: haylee 24 980
Posted: 01-15-2014 03:37 PM
Author: haylee
I wonder, after folks seeing Judy Dench’s Philomena, if some won’t rush LDS Social Services for information on their adoptions.
Author: Tessa 0 262
Posted: 01-15-2014 08:50 AM
Author: Tessa
Fed judge: Oklahoma ban on same-sex marriage is unconstitutional
Author: dave (e_nomo) 5 344
Posted: 01-15-2014 07:02 AM
Author: former victim
Rain—The intersection of Weather and Religion
Author: skepticalthayne 4 399
Posted: 01-14-2014 09:02 PM
Author: skepticalthayne
Return & Report: On Scrupulosity and My Disaffection with Mormonism–A Brief, Epistemic Epic of My Journey from Faith to Reason
Author: Garrett 27 1357
Posted: 01-14-2014 06:30 PM
Author: Garrett
Weird Mission Companions or Flat Mates!!!
Author: Elder OldDog 11 1118
Posted: 01-14-2014 10:28 AM
Author: MormonThink
I’m so glad you told me what a good Christian you are
Author: eddie 15 688
Posted: 01-14-2014 09:54 AM
Author: Kori
Sweet Irony - Ken Ham Calls Progressive Christians ‘More Dangerous’ Than Atheists After Criticism He’s Driving Believers Away
Author: Kori 2 302
Posted: 01-14-2014 09:41 AM
Author: Kori
Even Conservative Mormons are struggling with their theocratic State’s position on Gay Marriage.
Author: Kori 5 405
Posted: 01-14-2014 09:18 AM
Author: David Jason
There you go again Dr. Peterson
Author: Phillip (hagiasophia) 28 1692
Posted: 01-14-2014 07:05 AM
Author: Kori
Need Advise
Author: Gamer Mom 12 710
Posted: 01-14-2014 01:27 AM
Author: MsLed
Membership Almanac story in the SLTribune
Author: Elder OldDog 8 648
Posted: 01-13-2014 06:59 PM
Author: Tessa
Interesting, scholarly bio of Jacob Hamlin
Author: ldshistorybuff 1 242
Posted: 01-13-2014 06:26 PM
Author: Tessa
Proof of Polyandry
Author: Penguin 8 760
Posted: 01-13-2014 06:18 PM
Author: Kori
Glenn Beck, telling the world, home teachers “had” to visit monthly…unless….
Author: Tessa 3 399
Posted: 01-13-2014 06:15 PM
Author: Tessa
Entertainment and recovery
Author: quietlydifferent 5 533
Posted: 01-13-2014 11:56 AM
Author: MishMagnet
Time Magazine
Author: Free2Live 8 818
Posted: 01-13-2014 07:40 AM
Author: Tessa
Wonder what problems would concern God if the Mormon church moved their Headquarters to Mexico instead?
Author: Kori 0 380
Posted: 01-12-2014 07:32 PM
Author: Kori
BofM, naming your kids, cheating the girls
Author: Nephi 5 626
Posted: 01-12-2014 06:14 PM
Author: Elder OldDog
14 of 1089 « First Prev 12 13 14 15 16 Next Last »
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Forum Home > Member Forums > The Community Forum
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DrW
former victim
huehuetenango
Muffin Top
Runtu
Logged in: 5
Not logged in: 78
Logged in anonymous: 0
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Total members: 9410
"Katie Finds a Better Way": A Story for the "Friend" and Musicalkate (New Link)
by DrW
UPDATE on Seminary Problems
by Edmond Dantès
Just when things start to go well.......
by finex
Wine was different in Jesus time
by finex
Depression After Resignation
by finex
Church asks activist group to reconsider plans to protest GC
by Brad (ZeeZrom)
Spin off Post "Cleaning House" - Genealogy
by quietlydifferent
Cleaning House
by blueazure
I finally bumped into some Mormon missionaries!
by Matter Unorganized
Scientology Ripped Family Apart-- Doubting (Could have an article like this on the news every night about Mormonism)
by Strong Free & Thankful
Big Bang Theory Proven--Validation for this Scientist's Life's Work--Beautiful!
by blueazure
Knock on the Door and Bad Memory
by WinstonSmith
I could use some help!
by son of perdition
Looking for fellow lost souls
by Ninon de Lenclos
Mormon Church sending people DNA test kits but refusing to comment on results?
by OldSoul
Couldn't a real prophet find that plane?
by Bold Wish
I need help more than LDS corp.
by victim
Mormon kitsch
by huehuetenango
A Daring Statement by an 8-year-old
by haylee
This is Hard
by Tincan
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OCTOBER CONFERENCE
"Past, Present, and Possibilities"
Oct. 18-20, 2013
Financial Report for 2011 to Date
Financial Report for 2010 to Date
Financial Report for 2009
Twin Falls Newspaper Article
Twin Falls Billboard
Financial Report for 2009 to Date
The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]
Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]
Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]
Portland Oregon meetup
[Portland Post-Mor...]
Las Vegas March Meetup! Sunday 16th 1pm
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...]
General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
[Palmetto Post-Mor...]
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (3/2)
[San Francisco Bay...]
March Get Together
[Idaho Falls Post-...]
San Diego lunch this Sunday at noon!
[San Diego Post-Mo...]
March 2nd 2014-Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series
[Southern Utah Pos...]
FEB 22 - First ever Boston Meeting!
[Boston, MA Post-M...]
Every Sunday in Utah
[Salt Lake City Po...]
February Meetup Sunday the 16th 2:00pm Grand Cafe at Sunset Station
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...]
Secret FB group and dinner social
[East Tennessee Po...]
Feb 2nd Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series
[Southern Utah Pos...]
General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
Swearing Elder
General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
dovahkiyn
February Meetup Sunday the 16th 2:00pm Grand Cafe at Sunset Station
onendagus
Visitors welcome !
priorvej12
Las Vegas meetup Sun Jan 12th 1pm at Milos in Boulder City
onendagus
January 5th- Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series
gypsyrose
Book of Mormon Tories
by Tom Donofrio
Book of Mormon Tories
by Nogginus Skepticalus
Native American DNA
by GTM
Ongoing Monthly Gatherings!
Reuben
Ongoing Monthly Gatherings!
Virginia Steve
CALM meet up for June
4bagel
Revised NW Women's Retreat Announcement
lunaverse
Austin Fall Party
lightrider702
Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
by Timo
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by ExMoNemo
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by Mikki B
Resignation Letter to My Family
Mikki B
Resignation Letter to My Family
Waveoftruth
Resignation Letter to My Family
In search of Truth
Carolina PostMo Night: “The Master"
Swearing Elder
Washington D.C. Post-Mormon Lunch - August 28
freckles
Resignation Letter to My Family
INRETROSPECT
Financial Report for 2011 to Date
by Jeff Ricks
Resignation Letter to My Family
pennw
Home Our Community
Discussion Forums
· The Community Forum
Post-Mormon Chapters
Chapters in Utah
Cache Valley Post-Mormons
Calm of N. Davis County and Weber County Post-Mormons
Calm of South Davis County Post-Mormons
Calm of Utah County Post-Mormons
Long Valley Post-Mormons
Millard County Post-Mormons
New Hope Post-Mormons of Weber Co.
Salt Lake City Post-Mormons
Sanpete County Post-Mormons
Southern Utah Post Mormon Association
Uintah Basin Post-Mormons
USU Post-Mormons
Other chapters in the USA
Chapters in Canada
Calgary Post-Mormons
Canada Edmonton Post-Mormon
Fraser Valley Post-Mormons
GTA Canada Post-Mormons
Lethbridge Canada Post-Mormons
Victoria British Columbia Post-Mormons
Chapters in Europe
Denmark Post-Mormons
France Post-Mormons
North United Kingdom Post-Mormons
Norway Post Mormons
Scotland Post-Mormons
Sweden Post-Mormons
Switzerland Post-Mormons
UK Post-Mormons
All other chapters
New Zealand Post-Mormons
Post-Mormons Down Under
World Map of Chapter Locations
Starting a Post Mormon Chapter FAQ
Our Library
It Gets Better!
Post-Mormon Magazine
Peep-Stone Magazine
Sound Thinking Magazine
Post-Mormon Scrapbook
Our Exit Stories Member Options
Post-Mormon News Blog
Staff Members Blog
Board of Trustees Blog
Forum Home > Member Forums > The Community Forum
It gets better! Resources to help with coping
House Rules for posting on this website
Why is there sometimes anger here?
Glossary of Post-Mormon Terms
Frequently Asked Questions
Advanced Search
16 of 1089 « First Prev 14 15 16 17 18 Next Last »
Topic Title Replies Views Latest Post Info
Joseph and Emma are really amazing people. Just look at who they are related to.
Author: rain 9 526
Posted: 01-06-2014 10:27 AM
Author: Tessa
Why are Republicans devolving?
Author: Kori 32 1094
Posted: 01-06-2014 08:17 AM
Author: Kori
The nutters are emerging from their caves in UT, Homophobic Cops call for uprising
Author: Kori 18 773
Posted: 01-06-2014 08:15 AM
Author: former victim
Insanity is the basis for the Book of Mormon
Author: Nephi 5 452
Posted: 01-06-2014 06:09 AM
Author: OldSoul
Can’t tell if I should laugh or gag!
Author: barelythere 12 981
Posted: 01-05-2014 10:06 PM
Author: Gypsy Soul
Latter days Saints should put to dead the covenant breakers Discourse
Author: incawhite 3 470
Posted: 01-05-2014 05:38 PM
Author: Felix
My Former Bishop Busted for Soliciting Sex with Minor
Author: sincere 4 939
Posted: 01-05-2014 04:00 PM
Author: Elder OldDog
Doctrine, or just Folk Belief?
Author: Nephi 2 405
Posted: 01-05-2014 03:37 PM
Author: Kori
The downside of being Mrs. Jesus Christ…
Author: Nephi 5 384
Posted: 01-05-2014 02:56 PM
Author: Kori
Leaving Sacrament Early Right After Baby Blessing?
Author: NOMOREMO 34 1111
Posted: 01-05-2014 01:45 PM
Author: wesmanlv
Dark Matter isn’t evil…but the earth is surrounded by a belt of it.
Author: Tessa 1 199
Posted: 01-05-2014 11:36 AM
Author: Elder OldDog
Historical figure commands “tens of Thousands” ?
Author: Nephi 4 355
Posted: 01-05-2014 11:20 AM
Author: rain
Off Topic – Random historical thoughts on 2014
Author: Phillip (hagiasophia) 8 473
Posted: 01-05-2014 08:46 AM
Author: Tessa
let not the right hand know what the left hand is doing…
Author: Nephi 0 259
Posted: 01-05-2014 08:16 AM
Author: Nephi
Interview With A Psychopath Like Jeffs, Smith Or Young
Author: josephs myth 5 387
Posted: 01-05-2014 08:06 AM
Author: kinderhooker
Mormon funeral question
Author: Curious NeverMo 2 335
Posted: 01-04-2014 11:53 PM
Author: Curious NeverMo
Las Vegas meetup Sun Jan 12th 1pm at Milos in Boulder City
Author: onendagus 0 309
Posted: 01-04-2014 02:04 PM
Author: onendagus
R Mormons Redeemable 2?
Author: josephs myth 6 447
Posted: 01-04-2014 08:55 AM
Author: Brad (ZeeZrom)
Feeling Alone?
Author: mnemosyne 7 474
Posted: 01-03-2014 10:26 PM
Author: 4thNephite
Spaulding Manuscript Article on lds.org - Is it new? Did I miss the discussion of this one?
Author: Truth Matters 18 872
Posted: 01-03-2014 09:09 PM
Author: firefighter007
TSCC helping Anti-mormons?
Author: Matter Unorganized 7 531
Posted: 01-03-2014 06:48 PM
Author: YesIAmAPyr8
January 5th Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series
Author: skeptic 5 409
Posted: 01-03-2014 01:06 PM
Author: skeptic
Newsweek Mormon Similarities
Author: josephs myth 0 410
Posted: 01-03-2014 09:20 AM
Author: josephs myth
SLC Billboard features mormons, ex-mormons, atheists
Author: wesmanlv 6 794
Posted: 01-02-2014 09:55 PM
Author: Lord of Darkness
“Let it Go” relating to leaving mormonism
Author: haylee 5 495
Posted: 01-02-2014 09:44 PM
Author: haylee
So what changed…..
Author: WanderingGeek 8 552
Posted: 01-02-2014 09:43 PM
Author: Tessa
Hit with Guilt all a sudden
Author: Youngsinglerunning 2 314
Posted: 01-02-2014 09:33 PM
Author: Tessa
Is the Morg Intentionally Throwing This Season?
Author: Mountainhippie 11 700
Posted: 01-02-2014 06:45 PM
Author: GraciesDaddy
I asked my HT for his thoughts on the history essays thus far… his reply…
Author: firefighter007 8 742
Posted: 01-02-2014 05:42 PM
Author: 4thNephite
Was Jesus lying when he said we can move mountains with faith? ( 1 2)
Author: Kori 69 2277
Posted: 01-02-2014 04:11 PM
Author: Jeff Ricks
What do to? . . . or shake me that works too.
Author: barelythere 18 951
Posted: 01-02-2014 01:17 PM
Author: Free2Live
Rock in a Hat on lds.org
Author: Lloyd Dobler 24 1396
Posted: 01-02-2014 12:26 PM
Author: Free2Live
Monson’s Refusal toTestify
Author: incawhite 8 1129
Posted: 01-02-2014 11:58 AM
Author: Celestial Wedgie
Who do you believe?
Author: Kori 8 592
Posted: 01-02-2014 11:54 AM
Author: Tessa
No. I’m Sorry. I Don’t Want to Tour the New Mormon Temple with You
Author: Dadsprimalscream 10 633
Posted: 01-02-2014 11:49 AM
Author: Tessa
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"Katie Finds a Better Way": A Story for the "Friend" and Musicalkate (New Link)
by DrW
UPDATE on Seminary Problems
by Edmond Dantès
Just when things start to go well.......
by finex
Wine was different in Jesus time
by finex
Depression After Resignation
by finex
Church asks activist group to reconsider plans to protest GC
by Brad (ZeeZrom)
Spin off Post "Cleaning House" - Genealogy
by quietlydifferent
Cleaning House
by blueazure
I finally bumped into some Mormon missionaries!
by Matter Unorganized
Scientology Ripped Family Apart-- Doubting (Could have an article like this on the news every night about Mormonism)
by Strong Free & Thankful
Big Bang Theory Proven--Validation for this Scientist's Life's Work--Beautiful!
by blueazure
Knock on the Door and Bad Memory
by WinstonSmith
I could use some help!
by son of perdition
Looking for fellow lost souls
by Ninon de Lenclos
Mormon Church sending people DNA test kits but refusing to comment on results?
by OldSoul
Couldn't a real prophet find that plane?
by Bold Wish
I need help more than LDS corp.
by victim
Mormon kitsch
by huehuetenango
A Daring Statement by an 8-year-old
by haylee
This is Hard
by Tincan
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OCTOBER CONFERENCE
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Oct. 18-20, 2013
Financial Report for 2011 to Date
Financial Report for 2010 to Date
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Twin Falls Billboard
Financial Report for 2009 to Date
The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]
Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
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Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]
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Book of Mormon Tories
by Tom Donofrio
Book of Mormon Tories
by Nogginus Skepticalus
Native American DNA
by GTM
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Reuben
Ongoing Monthly Gatherings!
Virginia Steve
CALM meet up for June
4bagel
Revised NW Women's Retreat Announcement
lunaverse
Austin Fall Party
lightrider702
Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
by Timo
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
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Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by Mikki B
Resignation Letter to My Family
Mikki B
Resignation Letter to My Family
Waveoftruth
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In search of Truth
Carolina PostMo Night: “The Master"
Swearing Elder
Washington D.C. Post-Mormon Lunch - August 28
freckles
Resignation Letter to My Family
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18 of 1089 « First Prev 16 17 18 19 20 Next Last »
Topic Title Replies Views Latest Post Info
Tactics of manipulation
Author: eddie 2 452
Posted: 12-25-2013 06:42 PM
Author: SuziQ
Tithing - the Twelve voted to exempt themselves in 1845
Author: incawhite 6 886
Posted: 12-25-2013 04:38 PM
Author: kinderhooker
Holiday Cheer!
Author: former victim 2 256
Posted: 12-25-2013 12:51 PM
Author: Celestial Wedgie
TBM testimony of creationism
Author: eddie 2 266
Posted: 12-25-2013 11:14 AM
Author: kinderhooker
It seems difficult to remain NOM
Author: eddie 1 330
Posted: 12-25-2013 07:56 AM
Author: Tessa
Lamanites and Jewish practices?
Author: Nephi 3 312
Posted: 12-25-2013 05:44 AM
Author: eddie
My Missionary boyfriend and I need your advice!
Author: philomath 26 1240
Posted: 12-25-2013 04:50 AM
Author: eddie
TBM Rantings on Facebook about Utah’s ban on gay marriage being overturned
Author: bjohn 11 916
Posted: 12-24-2013 09:24 PM
Author: kinderhooker
Santa done showed up. (Freaked Out II)
Author: how is this my life 8 499
Posted: 12-24-2013 05:35 PM
Author: how is this my life
Post/Ex Mormons in Newsweek Magazine!!!
Author: Jeff Ricks 11 1066
Posted: 12-24-2013 02:28 PM
Author: Strong Free & Thankful
5% tithing
Author: stepford rebel 16 877
Posted: 12-24-2013 01:52 PM
Author: kinderhooker
Why dress up for a ‘day of rest’?
Author: Nephi 6 402
Posted: 12-23-2013 03:38 PM
Author: Tessa
Mo Tab Pres. says, “We are not proselytizing through our music at all.”
Author: Aleut 2 306
Posted: 12-23-2013 03:27 PM
Author: Tessa
I am speechless…
Author: WinstonSmith 3 492
Posted: 12-23-2013 11:51 AM
Author: Quartersawn
Interesting blog on the late Gentile Utah writer John D. Fitzgerald, he depicted Mormon Utah for many
Author: ldshistorybuff 0 747
Posted: 12-23-2013 11:20 AM
Author: ldshistorybuff
Further proof ‘the brethren’ are really inspired
Author: Nephi 5 632
Posted: 12-23-2013 10:53 AM
Author: WanderingGeek
Noah’s Ark Found….or not
Author: eddie 9 555
Posted: 12-23-2013 10:46 AM
Author: kinderhooker
Anyone care to comment?
Author: wesmanlv 4 512
Posted: 12-23-2013 10:03 AM
Author: Tessa
Toying With Our Emotions - Newsweek
Author: josephs myth 0 827
Posted: 12-23-2013 08:21 AM
Author: josephs myth
–Off Topic– WARNING: Content Contains Sexual Innuendo
Author: Aleut 2 535
Posted: 12-23-2013 08:07 AM
Author: WinstonSmith
Man UP Tommy, Boyd and buddies…
Author: Nephi 6 731
Posted: 12-23-2013 05:12 AM
Author: WanderingGeek
Theater Miley Cyrus
Author: josephs myth 24 2352
Posted: 12-22-2013 10:59 PM
Author: josephs myth
Are You More Willing to Help?
Author: Silverwings 3 285
Posted: 12-22-2013 08:59 PM
Author: Strong Free & Thankful
New Essay = Polygamy
Author: Lord of Darkness 29 1381
Posted: 12-22-2013 04:27 PM
Author: MsLed
On the authorship of recent ‘official’ LDS anonymous essays (link)
Author: Discon2 11 951
Posted: 12-22-2013 12:21 PM
Author: Discon2
Safely Throwing Everything LDS Under The Bus
Author: josephs myth 1 725
Posted: 12-22-2013 10:04 AM
Author: former victim
The Mormon World
Author: NotAnymore 8 767
Posted: 12-22-2013 09:06 AM
Author: Discon2
Cain is Like The Highlander - There Can be Only One.
Author: Elder Skelter 4 388
Posted: 12-22-2013 08:08 AM
Author: Tessa
So ask Mormon Chat about racism, dark skin and curses
Author: Nephi 4 510
Posted: 12-22-2013 07:31 AM
Author: Kori
New approach for “CULTural” Mormons to remain faithful - claim white is black and black is white.
Author: Kori 4 369
Posted: 12-21-2013 01:36 PM
Author: Kori
There is a Difference
Author: JonMarshall30 5 420
Posted: 12-21-2013 08:22 AM
Author: Tessa
Could be Turning a Corner
Author: JonMarshall30 9 566
Posted: 12-21-2013 06:43 AM
Author: Elder Skelter
Meetup - Sunday, Dec. 22nd, 10am Cabela’s food court in Lehi, UT
Author: BITE ME 0 502
Posted: 12-20-2013 09:55 PM
Author: BITE ME
Utah County Court House, shut the doors at 7 p.m. on Gay marriages. Come on Utah, let them get their licenses!!!
Author: Tessa 2 481
Posted: 12-20-2013 08:21 PM
Author: dave (e_nomo)
I’m returning and reporting after being off this site for a while.
Author: True Integrity 7 777
Posted: 12-20-2013 07:16 PM
Author: Celestial Wedgie
18 of 1089 « First Prev 16 17 18 19 20 Next Last »
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"Katie Finds a Better Way": A Story for the "Friend" and Musicalkate (New Link)
by DrW
UPDATE on Seminary Problems
by Edmond Dantès
Just when things start to go well.......
by finex
Wine was different in Jesus time
by finex
Depression After Resignation
by finex
Church asks activist group to reconsider plans to protest GC
by Brad (ZeeZrom)
Spin off Post "Cleaning House" - Genealogy
by quietlydifferent
Cleaning House
by blueazure
I finally bumped into some Mormon missionaries!
by Matter Unorganized
Scientology Ripped Family Apart-- Doubting (Could have an article like this on the news every night about Mormonism)
by Strong Free & Thankful
Big Bang Theory Proven--Validation for this Scientist's Life's Work--Beautiful!
by blueazure
Knock on the Door and Bad Memory
by WinstonSmith
I could use some help!
by son of perdition
Looking for fellow lost souls
by Ninon de Lenclos
Mormon Church sending people DNA test kits but refusing to comment on results?
by OldSoul
Couldn't a real prophet find that plane?
by Bold Wish
I need help more than LDS corp.
by victim
Mormon kitsch
by huehuetenango
A Daring Statement by an 8-year-old
by haylee
This is Hard
by Tincan
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OCTOBER CONFERENCE
"Past, Present, and Possibilities"
Oct. 18-20, 2013
Financial Report for 2011 to Date
Financial Report for 2010 to Date
Financial Report for 2009
Twin Falls Newspaper Article
Twin Falls Billboard
Financial Report for 2009 to Date
The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]
Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]
Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]
Portland Oregon meetup
[Portland Post-Mor...]
Las Vegas March Meetup! Sunday 16th 1pm
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...]
General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
[Palmetto Post-Mor...]
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (3/2)
[San Francisco Bay...]
March Get Together
[Idaho Falls Post-...]
San Diego lunch this Sunday at noon!
[San Diego Post-Mo...]
March 2nd 2014-Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series
[Southern Utah Pos...]
FEB 22 - First ever Boston Meeting!
[Boston, MA Post-M...]
Every Sunday in Utah
[Salt Lake City Po...]
February Meetup Sunday the 16th 2:00pm Grand Cafe at Sunset Station
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...]
Secret FB group and dinner social
[East Tennessee Po...]
Feb 2nd Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series
[Southern Utah Pos...]
General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
Swearing Elder
General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
dovahkiyn
February Meetup Sunday the 16th 2:00pm Grand Cafe at Sunset Station
onendagus
Visitors welcome !
priorvej12
Las Vegas meetup Sun Jan 12th 1pm at Milos in Boulder City
onendagus
January 5th- Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series
gypsyrose
Book of Mormon Tories
by Tom Donofrio
Book of Mormon Tories
by Nogginus Skepticalus
Native American DNA
by GTM
Ongoing Monthly Gatherings!
Reuben
Ongoing Monthly Gatherings!
Virginia Steve
CALM meet up for June
4bagel
Revised NW Women's Retreat Announcement
lunaverse
Austin Fall Party
lightrider702
Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
by Timo
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by ExMoNemo
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by Mikki B
Resignation Letter to My Family
Mikki B
Resignation Letter to My Family
Waveoftruth
Resignation Letter to My Family
In search of Truth
Carolina PostMo Night: “The Master"
Swearing Elder
Washington D.C. Post-Mormon Lunch - August 28
freckles
Resignation Letter to My Family
INRETROSPECT
Financial Report for 2011 to Date
by Jeff Ricks
Resignation Letter to My Family
pennw
Home Our Community
Discussion Forums
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Post-Mormon Chapters
Chapters in Utah
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Long Valley Post-Mormons
Millard County Post-Mormons
New Hope Post-Mormons of Weber Co.
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18 of 1089 « First Prev 16 17 18 19 20 Next Last »
Topic Title Replies Views Latest Post Info
Tactics of manipulation
Author: eddie 2 452
Posted: 12-25-2013 06:42 PM
Author: SuziQ
Tithing - the Twelve voted to exempt themselves in 1845
Author: incawhite 6 886
Posted: 12-25-2013 04:38 PM
Author: kinderhooker
Holiday Cheer!
Author: former victim 2 256
Posted: 12-25-2013 12:51 PM
Author: Celestial Wedgie
TBM testimony of creationism
Author: eddie 2 266
Posted: 12-25-2013 11:14 AM
Author: kinderhooker
It seems difficult to remain NOM
Author: eddie 1 330
Posted: 12-25-2013 07:56 AM
Author: Tessa
Lamanites and Jewish practices?
Author: Nephi 3 312
Posted: 12-25-2013 05:44 AM
Author: eddie
My Missionary boyfriend and I need your advice!
Author: philomath 26 1240
Posted: 12-25-2013 04:50 AM
Author: eddie
TBM Rantings on Facebook about Utah’s ban on gay marriage being overturned
Author: bjohn 11 916
Posted: 12-24-2013 09:24 PM
Author: kinderhooker
Santa done showed up. (Freaked Out II)
Author: how is this my life 8 499
Posted: 12-24-2013 05:35 PM
Author: how is this my life
Post/Ex Mormons in Newsweek Magazine!!!
Author: Jeff Ricks 11 1066
Posted: 12-24-2013 02:28 PM
Author: Strong Free & Thankful
5% tithing
Author: stepford rebel 16 877
Posted: 12-24-2013 01:52 PM
Author: kinderhooker
Why dress up for a ‘day of rest’?
Author: Nephi 6 402
Posted: 12-23-2013 03:38 PM
Author: Tessa
Mo Tab Pres. says, “We are not proselytizing through our music at all.”
Author: Aleut 2 306
Posted: 12-23-2013 03:27 PM
Author: Tessa
I am speechless…
Author: WinstonSmith 3 492
Posted: 12-23-2013 11:51 AM
Author: Quartersawn
Interesting blog on the late Gentile Utah writer John D. Fitzgerald, he depicted Mormon Utah for many
Author: ldshistorybuff 0 747
Posted: 12-23-2013 11:20 AM
Author: ldshistorybuff
Further proof ‘the brethren’ are really inspired
Author: Nephi 5 632
Posted: 12-23-2013 10:53 AM
Author: WanderingGeek
Noah’s Ark Found….or not
Author: eddie 9 555
Posted: 12-23-2013 10:46 AM
Author: kinderhooker
Anyone care to comment?
Author: wesmanlv 4 512
Posted: 12-23-2013 10:03 AM
Author: Tessa
Toying With Our Emotions - Newsweek
Author: josephs myth 0 827
Posted: 12-23-2013 08:21 AM
Author: josephs myth
–Off Topic– WARNING: Content Contains Sexual Innuendo
Author: Aleut 2 535
Posted: 12-23-2013 08:07 AM
Author: WinstonSmith
Man UP Tommy, Boyd and buddies…
Author: Nephi 6 731
Posted: 12-23-2013 05:12 AM
Author: WanderingGeek
Theater Miley Cyrus
Author: josephs myth 24 2352
Posted: 12-22-2013 10:59 PM
Author: josephs myth
Are You More Willing to Help?
Author: Silverwings 3 285
Posted: 12-22-2013 08:59 PM
Author: Strong Free & Thankful
New Essay = Polygamy
Author: Lord of Darkness 29 1381
Posted: 12-22-2013 04:27 PM
Author: MsLed
On the authorship of recent ‘official’ LDS anonymous essays (link)
Author: Discon2 11 951
Posted: 12-22-2013 12:21 PM
Author: Discon2
Safely Throwing Everything LDS Under The Bus
Author: josephs myth 1 725
Posted: 12-22-2013 10:04 AM
Author: former victim
The Mormon World
Author: NotAnymore 8 767
Posted: 12-22-2013 09:06 AM
Author: Discon2
Cain is Like The Highlander - There Can be Only One.
Author: Elder Skelter 4 388
Posted: 12-22-2013 08:08 AM
Author: Tessa
So ask Mormon Chat about racism, dark skin and curses
Author: Nephi 4 510
Posted: 12-22-2013 07:31 AM
Author: Kori
New approach for “CULTural” Mormons to remain faithful - claim white is black and black is white.
Author: Kori 4 369
Posted: 12-21-2013 01:36 PM
Author: Kori
There is a Difference
Author: JonMarshall30 5 420
Posted: 12-21-2013 08:22 AM
Author: Tessa
Could be Turning a Corner
Author: JonMarshall30 9 566
Posted: 12-21-2013 06:43 AM
Author: Elder Skelter
Meetup - Sunday, Dec. 22nd, 10am Cabela’s food court in Lehi, UT
Author: BITE ME 0 502
Posted: 12-20-2013 09:55 PM
Author: BITE ME
Utah County Court House, shut the doors at 7 p.m. on Gay marriages. Come on Utah, let them get their licenses!!!
Author: Tessa 2 481
Posted: 12-20-2013 08:21 PM
Author: dave (e_nomo)
I’m returning and reporting after being off this site for a while.
Author: True Integrity 7 777
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Why Were Mormons Driven From State to State
Posted: 18 April 2007 06:08 PM [ Ignore ]
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I am posting this in an effort to get GoRomney to actually listen to the educated members here about the reason the mormons are not in fact the innocent little victims they claim to be. I also wouldn't mind some further information about the specifics of the massacre that led to the extermination order, the burning of the press and whatever got the people in Kirtland upset with them.
Thanks for any help you guys can offer. I admit that I am not as well read or intelligent in these matters as many of you, and I am sick of his blind acceptance that the mormons are all good people and we are attempting to persecute and hate them because we are mean and evil and never really believed in the church. I actually doubthe will have the balls to engage in a real conversation on the forum, but here's hoping.
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Posted: 18 April 2007 06:23 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Dogzilla Joy
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GoRomney isn't even posting here. Where are you seeing his/her comments?
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Formerly known as “Dogzilla.”
Posted: 18 April 2007 06:25 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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duryen
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dogzilla:
GoRomney isn't even posting here. Where are you seeing his/her comments?
"recent comments" about the newspaper article
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Everyday, things are changing, words once honored turned to lies
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Posted: 18 April 2007 07:24 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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Dogzilla Joy
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Nevermind.
{entire post deleted due to being off-topic and apparently, unwelcome}
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Posted: 18 April 2007 07:31 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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duryen:I also wouldn't mind some further information about the specifics of the massacre that led to the extermination order, the burning of the press and whatever got the people in Kirtland upset with them.
The Saints experienced 4 separate events of being driven from one location to another. Although they share common denominators in a broad sense, each event also had unique circumstances. The problems at Kirtland were primarily caused by apostates and internal dissent and deserves a summary of its own. The Saints in Missouri experienced 2 separate events: first, they were driven from Jackson, County... the burning of the press was part of that event; second, they were driven from the state. If you recall, I and others did touch on the primary reasons for each of these separate Missouri events on another thread at: http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/479/
Nauvoo was the last event, which has its own distinctive causes and requires another very long summary of its own. Althought polygamy, destruction of the Nauvoo expositor, and JS's death are well know facts underlying their ultimate expulsion, they only reveal a small portion of the many underlying problems.
IMHO, none of the events were caused by innocent religious persecution.
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Posted: 18 April 2007 07:39 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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duryen
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Thanks TW! I do remember the stuff about the reasons behind the initial expulsion from missouri, but hadn't really heard anything about kirtland at all and other than the press destruction (which for some reason I thought was in Navoo) had no idea why they were run out of Navoo. I am interested in learing about the Navoo stuff aside from the antagonistic feelings toward GoRomney.
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Everyday, things are changing, words once honored turned to lies
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Posted: 18 April 2007 08:11 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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amberale
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Unlike most of my other posts, I'm going to try to be pithy on this thread! :lol:
In a nutshell, New York became unlivable for the Saints because too many people there knew of Joseph's propensity for money digging and the Smith family's folk-magic beliefs. So, when large numbers of converts got baptized in Ohio, JS decided that it would be easiest to move the church headquarters there.
Unfortunately, two big problems became apparent. First, the Saints began their long tradition of bloc voting, which upset the political balances of the region, which in turn inflamed much animosity toward them by the locals. Secondly, JS started becoming involved in illegal activities which started attracting local law enforcement scrutiny. Most notably, the Kirtland "anti-Banking" debacle. In essense, JS wanted to start a bank. Not wanting to wait for the appropriate permission from the State, he purchased the necessary plates to print his own money. When the state legislature refused the charter, JS was left with useless -- but very expensive -- plates.
So, he altered the plates so that the bills would read "Kirtland Safety Society Anti-Banking Company." The notes circulated wildly as legal tender among the faithful, although more astute businessmen insisted on exchanging the notes for real legal tender, and Joseph soon realized that this run on his "anti-Bank" would ruin the bank. He and Oliver resigned as officers, and the bank failed soon afterwards
Many people at the time felt that Joseph had set this all up to swindle them out of their money, and even threatened him physically. This caused him to leave the city frequently, and by 1837, was in hiding. Between June of 1837 and April of 1839, thirteen lawsuits were filed against Joseph, to the amount of $25,000 in actual losses. The creditors asked for $35,000 in damages. He was arrested seven times in four months, and his followers managed to raise the $38,428 required for bail. Of the thirteen suits only six were settled out of court-about $12,000 out of the $25,000. In the other seven the creditors either were awarded damages or won them by default. Most of the debt was never repaid, however.
So, in light of all these legal troubles, Missouri started looking very good.
While all this was going on, Saints had been settling in Jackson County, Missouri. But, right off the bat, the Saints alienated their neighbors in one of the first editions of their local newspaper by calling for Missouri to become a free state instead of a slave state which they were at the time. Given that Southerners were already paranoid about Northern abolitionists swooping in to destroy their "peculiar institution," this abolitionist stance set the locals against the Saints right at the start.
This was followed by block voting, which again upset the local politics and gave the Saints far more political clout than the locals were comfortable with. In response to the local's distrust, the Mormons began buying up land in order to create a more insular society, which in turn exacerbated the distrust of the surrounding communities.
Growing tensions between the two groups caused the Saints to be forced out of Jackson County. As a compromise, the State of Missouri created Clay County, which was a special county solely for the Mormons. This created a period of calm, which takes us to 1837 when Joseph Smith was having legal troubles in Kirtland.
In order to escape his creditors, Joseph Smith moved the church headquarters to Missouri, and had the Kirtland Saints move there as well. With the rapid influx of Mormons, it seemed to the locals that the Mormons were poised to take over the whole state. And, indeed, the LDS rhetoric of the day bolstered that view, with all sorts of talk about how this was the "promised land" for the Saints, and that everyone in the surrounding area would have to give up their lands or join with the Saints, etc. That, along with the huge influx of new Saints arriving all the time -- i.e., more voters that would continue to vote in blocs -- created a huge amount of tension.
So, the Missouri Era is sort of defined by the Saints becoming increasingly paranoid about the outside world, and increasing their rhetoric about how the outside world will eventually have to bow to God's Chosen People, combined with the increased paranoia that the surrounding non-Mormon populations had about the Saints taking over their state and their lands.
Culturally, the two side were polar opposites, and not much understanding or true communication between the two sides took place. As a result, there began to be a drastic increase in tension throughout 1838. Increased rhetoric and rumor on both sides initiated physical violence, which in turn increased the rumor mill again, which increased the rhetoric and violence, in a seemingly unending escalation.
Finally, Gov. Boggs, seeing that he had the beginnings of a very real civil war on his hands, ordered the expulsion of the Saints. Fortunately, Illinois -- a Free state -- was sympathetic to the Mormons, and were culturally more similar them.
So, the Saints landed in Nauvoo. By now, however, Joseph Smith's theology was taking a very different turn than it had in the past. He secretly introduced the concept of polygamy to a very close group of individuals. In a town of only 20,000, this caused untold amount of rumors. Exacerbating the problem, Joseph would publicly denounce polygamy, and preach in the strongest terms against it, yet secretly ask various young women to marry him just days later.
The way polygamy was practiced created a lot of enemies within the Church itself. Numerous people were excommunicated, and many people felt they had finally seen Joseph's true colors, and, like many other exmormons, wished to get the truth out there.
Since it wasn't usually safe to stick around Nauvoo after seeing the light -- thanks to the Danites and the Nauvoo Whistling and Whittling Brigade -- most "apostates" relocated out of town. As we all know here, sometimes there is a lot of anger after realizing you've been duped. So, the surrounding communities got more than their fair share of negative publicity about the Mormons in Nauvoo, which started giving them plenty of concern.
However, most of the "persecution" Joseph had, especially during the early days of Nauvoo, were from dissidents within the Mormon ranks itself; not from the surrounding non-Mormons.
The problem is that Joseph dealt with this by throwing out the American Democratic ideal, and instituted a theocracy, which was perceived as very un-American. This didn't sit well with the surrounding neighbors at all. Not only that, but as a reaction to Missouri, Joseph petitioned for and won the right to create his own militia which ended up outnumbering the state militia.
Indeed, the perception was that Joseph was above the law. For instance, throughout the Nauvoo Era, Missouri kept trying to extradite Joseph in order to stand trial on charges related to the recent "Mormon War." Yet, each time he was apprehended, Joseph simply appealed to the Nauvoo Municipal Court, which would promptly issue a writ of hapeas corpus, forcing the immediate release of Joseph. In fact, the court would do the same thing for any Latter-day Saint whenever a non-Mormon would try to apprehend them on any charge.
Local Illinoisans began to be quite alarmed at this subversion of the judiciary process, and became very concerned about the rising power that Joseph had over all things big and small in Nauvoo, and the complete theocracy that was instituted.
So, when William Law printed the "Nauvoo Expositor," prompting Joseph, as mayor, to get the city council to order the destruction of the press, the surrounding communities were very alarmed. Here was a blatant affront to the Freedom of Speech, and the surrounding communities felt that Joseph had gone too far.
Joseph initially ran from the law, as he had done in times past, but for various reasons finally decided to submit. He was arrested, and as we all know, finally killed at Carthage. Much of the turmoil that followed was internally-based rather than externally based, but eventually, the tensions mounted between the theocracy and the surrounding non-LDS communities for largely the same reasons as Missouri. The Saints isolated themselves from the non-Mormons, spouted rhetoric of their demise, and held enough power with their block voting to make the non-Mormons very suspicious.
So, the Illinoisans kicked the Saints out as well, just as the Missourians had done a few years earlier. The blame certainly doesn't lie solely on the Saints, but neither does it lie solely on the non-Mormons, in my opinion. Certainly both sides share in the lack of communication and outreach that precipitated the inevitable escalations of tension between the two groups.
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Posted: 18 April 2007 08:16 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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duryen:
unless somebody responds, I'll need some time to assemble a brief but coherent summary of the sequential events underlying the Kirtland problems and the Nauvoo problems. I can say that the catalytic event leading to JS's permanent exodus from Kirltand was the fallout from the failure of the Bank he established.
In Independence, MO (Jackson, County) the press was owned by the church and destroyed by the local citizens in response upon learning from the Saints' first publication of JS's revealations, which was interpreted by the citizens to say in effect: 'this land is our inheritance as declared by God and we're authorized to take it by violence if necessary'. The citizens were less than sympathetic to this suggestion. In Nauvoo, the Nauvoo Expositor press was owned by dissidents and destroyed by the city government (i.e., JS).
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Posted: 18 April 2007 08:23 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
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good summary amberale! says it all.
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Posted: 18 April 2007 08:30 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
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Can I get a round of applause for amberale's 60-second whirl-wind tour of Mormon persecution? Holy cow, that was both succinct and spot-on! Thanks!
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Posted: 18 April 2007 09:05 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
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Aw, thanks! grin
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Posted: 18 April 2007 09:43 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 11 ]
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free thinker
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Thanks Amber
Well done indeed. That was thourough and fair.
I never knew what happened in Kirtland until I read Brodie's book. One thing you did not mention is that Joseph and Sidney left Kirtland in the dark of night. That struck me as a bit cowardly.
I think Smith really was a bit of a coward. He also needed later to be talked back into retuning to Nauvoo after heading west and leaving the Saints behind. I see him as a coward as well as a liar.
ft
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Posted: 18 April 2007 09:47 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 12 ]
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Anyone see any patterns here?
Set up shop
get in trouble
move away from the trouble
Go to step 1
Was Smith a con-man?
Well if it swims like a duck and it quacks like a duck...
It ain't no pigeon.
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Posted: 18 April 2007 10:01 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 13 ]
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amberale
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free thinker:
One thing you did not mention is that Joseph and Sidney left Kirtland in the dark of night. That struck me as a bit cowardly.
I think Smith really was a bit of a coward. He also needed later to be talked back into retuning to Nauvoo after heading west and leaving the Saints behind. I see him as a coward as well as a liar.
Yeah, I have to say that I agree with you. Maybe there is a fine line between prudence and cowardice, but sometimes it seems as though JS straddle that line a bit much.
Grape Nephi
Anyone see any patterns here?
Set up shop
get in trouble
move away from the trouble
Go to step 1
Was Smith a con-man?
Well if it swims like a duck and it quacks like a duck…
It ain't no pigeon.
LOL!
The other thing I have to ask myself when looking at all these moves is this: What is the more likely explanation?
Due in part to their own actions, the early Mormons alienated their neighbors wherever they went; OR
The early Mormons just happened to move into 5 different areas (NY, Ohio, Jackson Co. MO, Clay Co. MO, Illinois) full of people who were unusually intolerant of different or new religions, who then wished to persecute them.
Which is the more likely of the two choices? To me, the first is the most likely. Although, I guess a TBM might choose the 2nd, saying that Satan worked the residents into a frenzy. ::roll eyes::
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Posted: 18 April 2007 10:14 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 14 ]
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Nice framing of history amberale. Thanks!
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Posted: 18 April 2007 10:51 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 15 ]
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One of the seldom mentioned reasons for the Missouri persecutions is found in the Doctrine and Covemants 101:1-2: "Verily I say unto you, concerning your brethren who have been afflicted, and persecuted, and cast out from the land of their inheritance-I, the Lord, have suffered the affliction to come upon them, wherewith they have been afflicted, in consequence of their transgressions." Verse 6 goes on to say: "Behold, I say unto you, there were jarrings, and contentions, and envyings, and strifes, and lustful and covetous desires among them; therefore by these things they polluted their inheritances."
So there you have it-straight from the source. The Mormons were driven out of Missouri because of their wickedness.
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Posted: 18 April 2007 11:01 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 16 ]
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See! I told you that ya'll were much better read and more intelligent on the subject! Amberale, thax, you did a great job with the summary! It is much easier to understand the politics and motives behind the people that eventually became angry with the saints.
So what happened in Council Bluffs? I used to live in Sioux City, Iowa and went to Council Bluffs a few times and was never 100% okay with the church description of simple being attacked and cut off from supplies simply because of religion. Is there more to the story?
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Posted: 19 April 2007 01:07 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 17 ]
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Duryen
The MoInc is all about selling a story to people also. It is a much more compelling story to sell folks if they paint themselves as a peaceful, god following group of conservative, hard working and honest pioneers who were the "under dog" and were victimized by mainstream bullies. The true history of the group and founder paints a much more violent, zealot counter-culture who were repeatedly kicked around from one state to the next, because no one would have them.
Posted: 19 April 2007 04:56 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 18 ]
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amberale
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duryen:
So what happened in Council Bluffs? I used to live in Sioux City, Iowa and went to Council Bluffs a few times and was never 100% okay with the church description of simple being attacked and cut off from supplies simply because of religion. Is there more to the story?
Hmm... I have to admit that I'm not aware of any major controversy in Council Bluffs. As far as I know, Council Bluffs was merely a stopping off point for the Mormon Exodus as they travelled to Utah. Although, maybe you're thinking of a specific event that I'm not thinking of?
Off the top of my head I can't think of any tensions in the vein of Nauvoo and Missouri that would relate to Council Bluffs. That's not a very good answer for you. Sorry!
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Posted: 19 April 2007 06:54 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 19 ]
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Amber,
Do you know/have a decent place you can reference all that wonderful information??
Pretty please with sugar on top?
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Posted: 19 April 2007 07:01 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 20 ]
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amberale
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bigbear:
Amber,
Do you know/have a decent place you can reference all that wonderful information??
Pretty please with sugar on top?
That's a good idea. I guess this would be good information to have readily available to new members of the DAMU. Maybe I'll clean up my post, maybe add a couple of footnotes, and put it on Zarahemla City Limits for future reference. Perhaps others would like a brief overview of the "persecutions" we've vaguely heard of growing up in the Church.
Thanks for the suggestion!
AA
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Posted: 19 April 2007 07:17 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 21 ]
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Well I must admit I'm asking for selfish reasons. I'm constantly rugged pulled when I have information that I don't have the actual source for. Of course it REALLY helps if it is actual lds based info or third party. No something "anti", but of course everyone is, aren't they?
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The religious beliefs behind Prop. 8 portray a perverse God who creates all with a need for close personal relationships but then creates 10 percent unworthy ever to enter into such relationships. I choose not to believe in such a God
Posted: 19 April 2007 07:34 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 22 ]
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Keep in mind, that when evidence against the church's validity are branded as "ANTI-MORMON LIES" that in any of the church's history that can be considered dubious, (and what part can't) there is only one set of lies that can be easily documented. That is the set of lies surrounding the initial practice of Polygamy, and the liars were the Mormon officials.
From Smiths vigorus denials of polygamy 10 years after his envolvement with Fanny Algier, and while he was energetically recruiting wives, to the written denials issued by polygamy practicing apostles. There should be no doubt in any mind who the liars have been from day one.
Maybe the Book of Abraham fraud is a close second.
And Mormons claim to be trying to be like Jesus. I can't think of a single time Jesus lied about one of his teaching to cover his Ass, nor when he gave any of his followers advice to do so.
Posted: 19 April 2007 08:13 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 23 ]
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Amberale gave a detailed summary of historical events based on a clouded interpretation. I say clouded because when history is written it is difficult not to leave one's footprint in the interpretation. However, Jeff Lindsey also gives a wonder summary to the events that take just a different turn from amberale's interpretation. It can be found here:
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_Missouri.shtml
History is a wonderful subject to research. But I try to keep in mind that interpretations of history usually stress some bias especially when lds history is dissected and discussed. Religious bigotry played a key role in Mormon persecution and to overlook frontier bigotry and momron persecution would be a gross mistake. Strange, how critics seem to overlook frontier bigotry when critics look at lds history.
Would anyone here condone such actions now against a religious organization?
Posted: 19 April 2007 09:48 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 24 ]
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Invisible Man:
Amberale gave a detailed summary of historical events based on a clouded interpretation. I say clouded because when history is written it is difficult not to leave one's footprint in the interpretation. However, Jeff Lindsey also gives a wonder summary to the events that take just a different turn from amberale's interpretation. It can be found here:
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_Missouri.shtml
History is a wonderful subject to research. But I try to keep in mind that interpretations of history usually stress some bias especially when lds history is dissected and discussed. Religious bigotry played a key role in Mormon persecution and to overlook frontier bigotry and momron persecution would be a gross mistake. Strange, how critics seem to overlook frontier bigotry when critics look at lds history.
Would anyone here condone such actions now against a religious organization?
Why especially LDS history?
People within the church, from the leadership on down, love to play up the idea that the church has been persecuted from the start for no reason. Everything taught about church history from within the church lends an air to this "persecution".
The saints were driven out from every place they tried to live before coming to Utah.
Joseph Smith was "martyred" by "hatefu"l people while simply trying to guide the true chrch.
Utah wasn't even allowed to become a state until the mormons agreed to give up polygamy, or was this "persecution" skewed as well?
I have been to literally thousands of lessons when I was in the church that played the religious persecution card and it goes beyond just the early church. So and so was teased for not drinking, or his funny underwear, not swearing, the list goes on and on.
The belief that mormons have always been persecuted, are still considered odd and are persecuted for this to a dgree and will always be persecuted to a degree, gives them yet another reason to believe that they are right and everybody else is wrong. Why else would everybody hate them?
Posted: 19 April 2007 12:22 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 25 ]
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hotrod:
One of the seldom mentioned reasons for the Missouri persecutions is found in the Doctrine and Covemants 101:1-2: "Verily I say unto you, concerning your brethren who have been afflicted, and persecuted, and cast out from the land of their inheritance-I, the Lord, have suffered the affliction to come upon them, wherewith they have been afflicted, in consequence of their transgressions." Verse 6 goes on to say: "Behold, I say unto you, there were jarrings, and contentions, and envyings, and strifes, and lustful and covetous desires among them; therefore by these things they polluted their inheritances."
So there you have it-straight from the source. The Mormons were driven out of Missouri because of their wickedness.
The Lord or JS, his spokesman, was badly afflicted with afflictions wasn't he. One would have thought God would have a better grasp on the English language!
Daryl
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Posted: 19 April 2007 12:41 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 26 ]
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Ctus:
Invisible Man:
Amberale gave a detailed summary of historical events based on a clouded interpretation. I say clouded because when history is written it is difficult not to leave one's footprint in the interpretation. However, Jeff Lindsey also gives a wonder summary to the events that take just a different turn from amberale's interpretation. It can be found here:
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_Missouri.shtml
History is a wonderful subject to research. But I try to keep in mind that interpretations of history usually stress some bias especially when lds history is dissected and discussed. Religious bigotry played a key role in Mormon persecution and to overlook frontier bigotry and momron persecution would be a gross mistake. Strange, how critics seem to overlook frontier bigotry when critics look at lds history.
Would anyone here condone such actions now against a religious organization?
Why especially LDS history?
People within the church, from the leadership on down, love to play up the idea that the church has been persecuted from the start for no reason. Everything taught about church history from within the church lends an air to this "persecution".
The saints were driven out from every place they tried to live before coming to Utah.
Joseph Smith was "martyred" by "hatefu"l people while simply trying to guide the true chrch.
Utah wasn't even allowed to become a state until the mormons agreed to give up polygamy, or was this "persecution" skewed as well?
I have been to literally thousands of lessons when I was in the church that played the religious persecution card and it goes beyond just the early church. So and so was teased for not drinking, or his funny underwear, not swearing, the list goes on and on.
The belief that mormons have always been persecuted, are still considered odd and are persecuted for this to a dgree and will always be persecuted to a degree, gives them yet another reason to believe that they are right and everybody else is wrong. Why else would everybody hate them?
Ctus,
That insistance that they were always the victim was one of the early things that activated my radar that all was not well in Zion.
In the REAL world no party is ever ALWAYS 100% guilt free. They always contribute something to the mix, consciously or unconsciously. But McMo was always right, always the wronged party.
It just didn't ring true for me.
Like I was so lucky, so blessed to be born into the one and only true church.
Sorry, just didn't gel. Always seemed sus.
As Spong pointed out, fundamentalist religions work out of a 'I'm OK, You'e Not OK' TA mindset. It is the same mindset of 80% of the population of prisons.
Track all this back to Smith's narcissism. He believed he could break the law with impunity, but when the law started to catch up with him, he claimed to be a victim, some poor hapless recipient of bastardry, in no way a creator of his own $hit.
Stop, please! I'm gonna cry.
Daryl
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Posted: 19 April 2007 01:07 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 27 ]
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Born Free:
Ctus,
That insistance that they were always the victim was one of the early things that activated my radar that all was not well in Zion.
In the REAL world no party is ever ALWAYS 100% guilt free. They always contribute something to the mix, consciously or unconsciously. But McMo was always right, always the wronged party.
It just didn't ring true for me.
Like I was so lucky, so blessed to be born into the one and only true church.
Sorry, just didn't gel. Always seemed sus.
As Spong pointed out, fundamentalist religions work out of a 'I'm OK, You'e Not OK' TA mindset. It is the same mindset of 80% of the population of prisons.
Track all this back to Smith's narcissism. He believed he could break the law with impunity, but when the law started to catch up with him, he claimed to be a victim, some poor hapless recipient of bastardry, in no way a creator of his own $hit.
Stop, please! I'm gonna cry.
Daryl
Narcissism is absolutely right, and it lives on today. That is the foundation of the stranglehold the church has on people. The claim of being the only true church keeps people fearful of allowing themselves the luxury of doubting. Reading anything that might make one doubt might cause the faith to waiver.
It was easy for me, even as a faithful mormon, to see the condescending attitude toward those without the "truth". The tradition of narcissism lives on!
Posted: 19 April 2007 02:02 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 28 ]
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peter_mary
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Invisible Man:
Amberale gave a detailed summary of historical events based on a clouded interpretation. I say clouded because when history is written it is difficult not to leave one's footprint in the interpretation. However, Jeff Lindsey also gives a wonder summary to the events that take just a different turn from amberale's interpretation. It can be found here:
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_Missouri.shtml
History is a wonderful subject to research. But I try to keep in mind that interpretations of history usually stress some bias especially when lds history is dissected and discussed. Religious bigotry played a key role in Mormon persecution and to overlook frontier bigotry and momron persecution would be a gross mistake. Strange, how critics seem to overlook frontier bigotry when critics look at lds history.
Would anyone here condone such actions now against a religious organization?
Boy-howdy, would I have to disagree. I DO agree that history is anything but objective. However, I think amberale's summary could hardly be called "clouded." To me, you're inferring that it is "obscured", perhaps even deliberately so, and that's simply not true. Now it might be that you (and Mr. Lindsay) choose to come to different conclusions, but are you willing to concede that such conclusions would be equally "cloudy?"
History is by its very nature only interesting when it is interpreted by people. Mormons interpret their history in a manner that strengthens them. Anti-Mormons interpret it in a manner that demeans the church. I don't think very many people have actually left the church from reading anti-mormon history. My library is full of books from active LDS historians. For me, I think you have to read as much as you can from all points of view, and draw your own conclusions...because ultimately you are studying history (most of us anyway) for the purpose of understanding what it is YOU believe. The REALITY of the history (if there is such a thing) is actually secondary to what it MEANS to the student of history.
What I don't agree with is "shaping" history, "rewriting" history, or "ignoring" history if it doesn't meet your needs. That's just intellectual denial or dishonesty.
I think that Bushman's book "Rough Stone Rolling" is a reasonable enough accounting for the very things that amberale summarized, and though Bushman sometimes goes a little softer on the Saints or Joseph than I would, he is fair in that he at least concedes that both sides were easily excitable, and hostilities went both ways.
Now, specifically when you say, "Religious bigotry played a key role" in the expulsion of the Saints from Missouri, I would cotend that you are correct...if by bigotry you mean the "antagonism of the Missourians toward the Mormons because their RELIGIOUS LEADERS taught the Mormons that Missouri was their manifest destiny." See, I don't agree that Missouri was just outright hostile to the Mormons from the get-go because of their religion. Suspicious--possibly. America was rife with religious inovators and peculiar sects, and the frontier was a wide-open place for people to do whatever it was they were gonna do. I think that less than the religion of the Mormons, it was their growing size, and their solidarity behind a religious movement that seemed so utterly at odds with the frontier mentality that threatened the Missouri locals. The frontiersmen of Jackson County lived where they did because they valued the rough, on-the-edge-of-the-wilderness way of life, and when the Mormons moved in and tried to settle the place, the locals were hostile. It wasn't about religion, it was about differences in general. The religion was just an easy difference to hang those hostilities on.
That's how it looks from outer darkness, anyway...
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Posted: 19 April 2007 08:45 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 29 ]
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IM:
when history is written it is difficult not to leave one's footprint in the interpretation…… Jeff Lindsey also gives a wonder summary
I couldn’t agree with you more. Jeff Lindsey’s ‘wonderful’ summary underscores the point. Although I can agree with many points in Lindsey’s summary, it is anything but balanced and the giant interpretive footprint of apologetic bias is glaringly apparent.
Perpetuating the myth that Sampson Avard was singularly responsible for the establishment of the Danites is one example. A balanced summary would at lease present all existing disconfirming evidence. But I forget ‘all truths aren’t that useful’ (BKP).
Whether Avard acted alone or not is debatable. Dismissing Avard as a renegade doesn’t acknowledge the main point. It was Smith’s theology that directly or indirectly nurtured and spawned the Danite organization and associated depravations.
I also find this quote of Lindsey to be disingenuous:
Latter-day Saints and especially their leaders had demonstrated commendable restraint in their response to violence time after time in the early days of the Church. Shunning aggression and retribution, Latter-day Saint actions had been essentially defensive.
The facts speak otherwise.
I also acknowledge that historical biases also exist in critical summaries. Peter_Mary has covered it well and my comments would be redundant.
I would however like to discuss the topic of ‘religious persecution’. IMO, the debate centers on one’s understanding of the meaning of ‘religious persecution’. Participants in the debate tend to internalize and emphasize different perspectives.
Church propaganda historically perpetuated the myth that the persecutions were primarily caused by religious bigotry. The ‘Legacy’ movie underscores this point. It is understandable, since the ‘faithful members’ that experienced the persecutions saw it this way. Their writings would naturally view it this way.
Many Mormons, past and present, tend to have a blind spot for any accountability for the persecutions. It’s this lack of acknowledgment that causes both no-mos and post-mos to speak up.
A balanced view suggests some percentage of Mormon culpability.
Let me focus on the Jackson County persecutions as an example. Indisputably, religious bigotry existed as reflected in a document that was drafted at a mass meeting of the settlers in Jackson County, Missouri, in July 1833. However, it was the secular implications of the theology that threatened the settlers….not theological academia. The rapid invasion of large masses of an exclusionary people (mostly from pro-abolitionist states) amplified their fears:
o fear of loosing economic power
o fear of loosing political power
o fear of loosing pro-slavery control
o fear of expulsion from their homes
o fear of loosing their lives
o fear of a Mormon/Indian military alliance to accomplish violent ends
o etc.
Undoubtedly, some of these fears were misplaced but not without basis. Although the settlers viewed Smith as an imposture and blasphemous, pronouncements emanating from him and his followers were potentially life-threatening. Since Mormons accepted Smith’s word as God’s word and acted as a block, pronouncements from his followers who “prophesied that before five years, all unbelievers in Jackson County would be destroyed” were not taken as idle threats.
I personally accept the assertion that Mormons experienced religious persecution, but only in the context of the theology’s secular implications. Theology and secular implications were inextricably intertwined.
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Posted: 19 April 2007 09:15 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 30 ]
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Are you going to respond to the above comments or is this going to be your usual cowardly hit and run? You seem to me to be a coward. You come into a conversation and lay out a tidbit, and then are challenged, but do not respond. Dont you have anything to say here in response?
I read the official church history for thirty years. When I was independently studying the history that was less biased, I was given a completely different picture. The contrast between the two is so stark that I had to conclude that official church history was deceptive based on what it emphasized, and what it left out.
ft
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Posted: 19 April 2007 10:55 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 31 ]
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First, some thoughts about D&C 101. Why would it be said that "I, the Lord, have suffered the affliction to come upon them, wherewith they have been afflicted, in consequence of their transgressions?"
Joseph had made some outrageous promises to the Saints regarding Missouri, the land of their inheritance. When it seemed improbable that those promises could be fulfilled Joseph needed a scapegoat. Could he blame the Missourians? No! If the Missourians were the fault of the failure to establish Zion surely the Lord would sweep them aside so the faithful saints could establish their holy city. So, who are you going to blame? Why the saints themselves of course. That is the only explanation they could really accept. Obviously, they knew they had commited some transgressions. Joseph told them they were being chastened and tried, and that eventually Zion would be established.
A very good book on the Nauvoo period is Cultures in Conflict: A Documentary History of the Mormon War in Illinois by John E. Hallwas and Roger D. Launis. The documents vividly describe the conflict created by "...an ambitious theocracy that asserted itself within a Jacksonian social environment deeply devoted to democracy."
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Posted: 20 April 2007 05:42 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 32 ]
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peter_mary:
Invisible Man:
History is by its very nature only interesting when it is interpreted by people. Mormons interpret their history in a manner that strengthens them. Anti-Mormons interpret it in a manner that demeans the church. I don't think very many people have actually left the church from reading anti-mormon history. My library is full of books from active LDS historians. For me, I think you have to read as much as you can from all points of view, and draw your own conclusions...because ultimately you are studying history (most of us anyway) for the purpose of understanding what it is YOU believe. The REALITY of the history (if there is such a thing) is actually secondary to what it MEANS to the student of history.
This was my point exactly. I may not agree with Amberale's interpretation but it needs to be stressed that history is up to interpretation and points of view. Amberale gave one interpretation but there are many others out there. My position is simple. The saints were wrongly persecuted since no one for any reason deserves that kind of treatment. If we condone that treatment then we become barbarians and we are uncivilized. This is why I asked the question if we would tolerate such behavior today as done by the local mobs at that time.
What the early saints experienced was a travesty of justice since the US was a free society created for religious freedom among other freedoms. If people on this forum can not see this contradiction then they need to take their blinders off and see injustice when it occurs regardless of the people persecuted and what those people may believe.
Posted: 20 April 2007 05:43 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 33 ]
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free thinker:
Invisible Man
Are you going to respond to the above comments or is this going to be your usual cowardly hit and run? You seem to me to be a coward. You come into a conversation and lay out a tidbit, and then are challenged, but do not respond. Dont you have anything to say here in response?
I read the official church history for thirty years. When I was independently studying the history that was less biased, I was given a completely different picture. The contrast between the two is so stark that I had to conclude that official church history was deceptive based on what it emphasized, and what it left out.
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Posted: 20 April 2007 05:51 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 34 ]
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Invisible Man:
What the early saints experienced was a travesty of justice since the US was a free society created for religious freedom among other freedoms. If people on this forum can not see this contradiction then they need to take their blinders off and see injustice when it occurs regardless of the people persecuted and what those people may believe.
Hey, you won't get any argument from me on that point! There is no question that the manner in which the affair was handled was downright awful, all the way around. What is important to this discussion is to try to understand WHY it happened, not justify it.
The "why" is pretty complicated, and their is plenty of blame on both sides of the fence.
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Posted: 20 April 2007 05:55 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 35 ]
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Invisible Man:
This was my point exactly. I may not agree with Amberale's interpretation but it needs to be stressed that history is up to interpretation and points of view. Amberale gave one interpretation but there are many others out there. My position is simple. The saints were wrongly persecuted since no one for any reason deserves that kind of treatment. If we condone that treatment then we become barbarians and we are uncivilized. This is why I asked the question if we would tolerate such behavior today as done by the local mobs at that time.
What the early saints experienced was a travesty of justice since the US was a free society created for religious freedom among other freedoms. If people on this forum can not see this contradiction then they need to take their blinders off and see injustice when it occurs regardless of the people persecuted and what those people may believe.
No one here is condoning persecution of any kind. I would call your argument an obvious red herring that you're using to sidetrack the real issue. The issue as I see it is how much responsibilty does the early church bear for its persecution? Invisible Man, what would you say on a scale from 1 to 10, with 1 being no responsibilibty whatsoever, and 10 being full responsibility? I call it a 7.
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Posted: 20 April 2007 06:33 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 36 ]
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Most people who start up a little self-rpomotion fest for themselves and call it a religion usually fail. The David Koreshes and Marshall Applewhites of our time have a hard time getting traction.
Joseph Smith's group managed to survive those early formative years, and it probably helped to have a martyr to cleave to.
The point is, there is a tendency for these enterprises to collapse on themselves, in this case, circumstances, not looking too radical and good PR efforts kept the ball rolling, and when it is handed down through generations, it feeds itself.
I don't buy the rationale that the 'gentiles' were bad for persecuting the early mormons. Everyone tends to favor their own subset of humanity and occasionally conflicts escalate to extremes. It's not an exclusive club membership held by the handcart crowd to be picked on and chased out of town. (Seems like the locals were mostly justified when they ran 'em out.) History abounds with examples of persecution, I won't even start a list...
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Posted: 20 April 2007 06:34 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 37 ]
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Jeff Ricks:
Invisible Man:
This was my point exactly. I may not agree with Amberale's interpretation but it needs to be stressed that history is up to interpretation and points of view. Amberale gave one interpretation but there are many others out there. My position is simple. The saints were wrongly persecuted since no one for any reason deserves that kind of treatment. If we condone that treatment then we become barbarians and we are uncivilized. This is why I asked the question if we would tolerate such behavior today as done by the local mobs at that time.
What the early saints experienced was a travesty of justice since the US was a free society created for religious freedom among other freedoms. If people on this forum can not see this contradiction then they need to take their blinders off and see injustice when it occurs regardless of the people persecuted and what those people may believe.
No one here is condoning persecution of any kind. I would call your argument an obvious red herring that you're using to sidetrack the real issue. The issue as I see it is how much responsibilty does the early church bear for its persecution? Invisible Man, what would you say on a scale from 1 to 10, with 1 being no responsibilibty whatsoever, and 10 being full responsibility? I call it a 7.
I would give the early saints a four. Frontier people were not the most accomodating people toward those people who expressed difference. The D & C contains admonishment to the early saints for their behavior. I would still claim that they were treated in a barbaric way by the local population. One can disagree with a group of people but one should not attempt to burn them out and drive them from their homes. This is not the mark of a civilized people.
The saints made mistakes. No question. But the treatment that they received was extreme. It was wrong. It bordered on genocide.
Posted: 20 April 2007 07:59 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 38 ]
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Invisible Man:
I would give the early saints a four.
I think that would be fair. I'd probably give the early saints a 5 or so. My summary above was not meant to place all the blame on the Saints by any means. You are exactly right that they were treated unfairly much of the time, and the surrounding population should have been more restrained.
My emphasis above was a counter-balance to the propaganda usually put out by the LDS Church in which the Saints are portrayed as being victims without giving any provocation.
Here is where I need to tread a little carefully, too. What I don't want to do is blame the victim. Certainly if a man is assaulted on the sidewalk I wouldn't want to tell him that it's his fault that he got mugged, because in the end, it's the mugger who has the ultimate responsibility.
Yet, at the same time, when analyzing the events that led up to the assault, you have to be somewhat objective and realize that the man may have played some part in the ordeal, however inadvertent his actions may have been. For example, let's say that this sidewalk is not in a good neighborhood; let's also say that this man is a drug addict and was seeking out a dealer in order to score some heroin. Furthermore, let's say that he let it slip that he had $500 on him.
Given the neighborhood, the amount of cash the man had, and the comparitively weak state he would have been in (being a drug addict), these circumstances would bring out strong, aggressive, predatorial instincts in some of the surrounding criminals, which would prompt an attack. Does this mean that a court should side with the criminal in his case? Absolutely not! Legally, he has no responsibility for what happened to him, but socially -- speaking strictly from a scientific cause-and-effect viewpoint -- you can say that he contributed to the attack. For instance, what would have happened in the same circumstances if some of the variables were changed? Like, for instance, if no one knew that he had $500 on him? Or if instead of being a weak heroin addict, he was a very big, strong, mean-looking guy?
So, by pointing out how the Saints were partially responsible for their situations, we are in no way excusing such attrocities as Haun's Mill, or anything like that. Absolutely not. From a legal perspective, aggressors are aggressors and should be dealt with harshly. But, if we are trying to understand the whole cause-and-effect thing, we have to carefully consider how the Saints contributed -- however inadvertently -- to their neighbors' animosity.
Buying into the Church's propaganda that the Saints had no responsibility is silly. But, most of us who grew up in the Church did just that for most of our lives. It's only now, when we want to know the real causes for all the animosity surrounding the early saints that it's important to emphasize their rhetoric, their actions, and their political gaffes that contributed to the cause-and-effect picture that eventually led to their "persecution."
The Church's PR machine spins the Saint's troubles into a faith-promoting story -- i.e., the surrounding communities hated the fact that the Saints had a prophet, and wished to silence the prophet. Or they thought the Book of Mormon was blasphemy, so they wanted to "destroy" the Saints. Or, Satan didn't want "the work" to go forth, and stirred up the hearts of men around the Saints in order to destroy them.
So, as people who are questioning the PR machine, it's natural for us to focus on what really happened. What was the Saint's real culpability? What does that mean to the stories we all used to see as faith-promoting?
Perhaps my overall point is: What you may see as us taking things too far in blaming the Saints may be just us focusing in on their potential culpabilities. I think most of us recognize that the surrounding non-Mormons had plenty of culpability of their own. However, it is always good to have folks such as you come here and remind us not to place too much blame on the Saints. Certainly there is plenty of blame to go around.
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Posted: 20 April 2007 08:18 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 39 ]
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I am not here 24/7. Sorry for the delay.
Thank you for responding. I apologize for the name calling. It is not my normal attitude and I will try to keep my composure in the future.
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Posted: 20 April 2007 09:53 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 40 ]
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hotrod:
Joseph had made some outrageous promises to the Saints regarding Missouri, the land of their inheritance. When it seemed improbable that those promises could be fulfilled Joseph needed a scapegoat. Could he blame the Missourians? No! If the Missourians were the fault of the failure to establish Zion surely the Lord would sweep them aside so the faithful saints could establish their holy city. So, who are you going to blame? Why the saints themselves of course. That is the only explanation they could really accept. Obviously, they knew they had commited some transgressions. Joseph told them they were being chastened and tried, and that eventually Zion would be established.
In every instance in which Smith’s Missouri prophecy failed, he blamed it on the saints’ transgressions (jarrings, contentions, envyings, strifes, lustful and covetous desires, not imparting of their substance among their poor). Hmmm……is it just me?… why doesn’t this litany of sins seem incongruent with the actual reasons for the saints’ problems.
I totally agree with you hotrod on this point. Couldn’t blame the Lord or Smith…would be false prophecy. Can’t blame the Missourians… would undermine revelation. Of course…. gotta blame the saints. Any other explanation would undermine Smith’s control.
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Why Were Mormons Driven From State to State
Posted: 18 April 2007 06:08 PM [ Ignore ]
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I am posting this in an effort to get GoRomney to actually listen to the educated members here about the reason the mormons are not in fact the innocent little victims they claim to be. I also wouldn't mind some further information about the specifics of the massacre that led to the extermination order, the burning of the press and whatever got the people in Kirtland upset with them.
Thanks for any help you guys can offer. I admit that I am not as well read or intelligent in these matters as many of you, and I am sick of his blind acceptance that the mormons are all good people and we are attempting to persecute and hate them because we are mean and evil and never really believed in the church. I actually doubthe will have the balls to engage in a real conversation on the forum, but here's hoping.
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Posted: 18 April 2007 06:23 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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GoRomney isn't even posting here. Where are you seeing his/her comments?
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Posted: 18 April 2007 06:25 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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dogzilla:
GoRomney isn't even posting here. Where are you seeing his/her comments?
"recent comments" about the newspaper article
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Posted: 18 April 2007 07:24 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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Nevermind.
{entire post deleted due to being off-topic and apparently, unwelcome}
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Posted: 18 April 2007 07:31 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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duryen:I also wouldn't mind some further information about the specifics of the massacre that led to the extermination order, the burning of the press and whatever got the people in Kirtland upset with them.
The Saints experienced 4 separate events of being driven from one location to another. Although they share common denominators in a broad sense, each event also had unique circumstances. The problems at Kirtland were primarily caused by apostates and internal dissent and deserves a summary of its own. The Saints in Missouri experienced 2 separate events: first, they were driven from Jackson, County... the burning of the press was part of that event; second, they were driven from the state. If you recall, I and others did touch on the primary reasons for each of these separate Missouri events on another thread at: http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/479/
Nauvoo was the last event, which has its own distinctive causes and requires another very long summary of its own. Althought polygamy, destruction of the Nauvoo expositor, and JS's death are well know facts underlying their ultimate expulsion, they only reveal a small portion of the many underlying problems.
IMHO, none of the events were caused by innocent religious persecution.
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Posted: 18 April 2007 07:39 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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Thanks TW! I do remember the stuff about the reasons behind the initial expulsion from missouri, but hadn't really heard anything about kirtland at all and other than the press destruction (which for some reason I thought was in Navoo) had no idea why they were run out of Navoo. I am interested in learing about the Navoo stuff aside from the antagonistic feelings toward GoRomney.
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Posted: 18 April 2007 08:11 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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Unlike most of my other posts, I'm going to try to be pithy on this thread! :lol:
In a nutshell, New York became unlivable for the Saints because too many people there knew of Joseph's propensity for money digging and the Smith family's folk-magic beliefs. So, when large numbers of converts got baptized in Ohio, JS decided that it would be easiest to move the church headquarters there.
Unfortunately, two big problems became apparent. First, the Saints began their long tradition of bloc voting, which upset the political balances of the region, which in turn inflamed much animosity toward them by the locals. Secondly, JS started becoming involved in illegal activities which started attracting local law enforcement scrutiny. Most notably, the Kirtland "anti-Banking" debacle. In essense, JS wanted to start a bank. Not wanting to wait for the appropriate permission from the State, he purchased the necessary plates to print his own money. When the state legislature refused the charter, JS was left with useless -- but very expensive -- plates.
So, he altered the plates so that the bills would read "Kirtland Safety Society Anti-Banking Company." The notes circulated wildly as legal tender among the faithful, although more astute businessmen insisted on exchanging the notes for real legal tender, and Joseph soon realized that this run on his "anti-Bank" would ruin the bank. He and Oliver resigned as officers, and the bank failed soon afterwards
Many people at the time felt that Joseph had set this all up to swindle them out of their money, and even threatened him physically. This caused him to leave the city frequently, and by 1837, was in hiding. Between June of 1837 and April of 1839, thirteen lawsuits were filed against Joseph, to the amount of $25,000 in actual losses. The creditors asked for $35,000 in damages. He was arrested seven times in four months, and his followers managed to raise the $38,428 required for bail. Of the thirteen suits only six were settled out of court-about $12,000 out of the $25,000. In the other seven the creditors either were awarded damages or won them by default. Most of the debt was never repaid, however.
So, in light of all these legal troubles, Missouri started looking very good.
While all this was going on, Saints had been settling in Jackson County, Missouri. But, right off the bat, the Saints alienated their neighbors in one of the first editions of their local newspaper by calling for Missouri to become a free state instead of a slave state which they were at the time. Given that Southerners were already paranoid about Northern abolitionists swooping in to destroy their "peculiar institution," this abolitionist stance set the locals against the Saints right at the start.
This was followed by block voting, which again upset the local politics and gave the Saints far more political clout than the locals were comfortable with. In response to the local's distrust, the Mormons began buying up land in order to create a more insular society, which in turn exacerbated the distrust of the surrounding communities.
Growing tensions between the two groups caused the Saints to be forced out of Jackson County. As a compromise, the State of Missouri created Clay County, which was a special county solely for the Mormons. This created a period of calm, which takes us to 1837 when Joseph Smith was having legal troubles in Kirtland.
In order to escape his creditors, Joseph Smith moved the church headquarters to Missouri, and had the Kirtland Saints move there as well. With the rapid influx of Mormons, it seemed to the locals that the Mormons were poised to take over the whole state. And, indeed, the LDS rhetoric of the day bolstered that view, with all sorts of talk about how this was the "promised land" for the Saints, and that everyone in the surrounding area would have to give up their lands or join with the Saints, etc. That, along with the huge influx of new Saints arriving all the time -- i.e., more voters that would continue to vote in blocs -- created a huge amount of tension.
So, the Missouri Era is sort of defined by the Saints becoming increasingly paranoid about the outside world, and increasing their rhetoric about how the outside world will eventually have to bow to God's Chosen People, combined with the increased paranoia that the surrounding non-Mormon populations had about the Saints taking over their state and their lands.
Culturally, the two side were polar opposites, and not much understanding or true communication between the two sides took place. As a result, there began to be a drastic increase in tension throughout 1838. Increased rhetoric and rumor on both sides initiated physical violence, which in turn increased the rumor mill again, which increased the rhetoric and violence, in a seemingly unending escalation.
Finally, Gov. Boggs, seeing that he had the beginnings of a very real civil war on his hands, ordered the expulsion of the Saints. Fortunately, Illinois -- a Free state -- was sympathetic to the Mormons, and were culturally more similar them.
So, the Saints landed in Nauvoo. By now, however, Joseph Smith's theology was taking a very different turn than it had in the past. He secretly introduced the concept of polygamy to a very close group of individuals. In a town of only 20,000, this caused untold amount of rumors. Exacerbating the problem, Joseph would publicly denounce polygamy, and preach in the strongest terms against it, yet secretly ask various young women to marry him just days later.
The way polygamy was practiced created a lot of enemies within the Church itself. Numerous people were excommunicated, and many people felt they had finally seen Joseph's true colors, and, like many other exmormons, wished to get the truth out there.
Since it wasn't usually safe to stick around Nauvoo after seeing the light -- thanks to the Danites and the Nauvoo Whistling and Whittling Brigade -- most "apostates" relocated out of town. As we all know here, sometimes there is a lot of anger after realizing you've been duped. So, the surrounding communities got more than their fair share of negative publicity about the Mormons in Nauvoo, which started giving them plenty of concern.
However, most of the "persecution" Joseph had, especially during the early days of Nauvoo, were from dissidents within the Mormon ranks itself; not from the surrounding non-Mormons.
The problem is that Joseph dealt with this by throwing out the American Democratic ideal, and instituted a theocracy, which was perceived as very un-American. This didn't sit well with the surrounding neighbors at all. Not only that, but as a reaction to Missouri, Joseph petitioned for and won the right to create his own militia which ended up outnumbering the state militia.
Indeed, the perception was that Joseph was above the law. For instance, throughout the Nauvoo Era, Missouri kept trying to extradite Joseph in order to stand trial on charges related to the recent "Mormon War." Yet, each time he was apprehended, Joseph simply appealed to the Nauvoo Municipal Court, which would promptly issue a writ of hapeas corpus, forcing the immediate release of Joseph. In fact, the court would do the same thing for any Latter-day Saint whenever a non-Mormon would try to apprehend them on any charge.
Local Illinoisans began to be quite alarmed at this subversion of the judiciary process, and became very concerned about the rising power that Joseph had over all things big and small in Nauvoo, and the complete theocracy that was instituted.
So, when William Law printed the "Nauvoo Expositor," prompting Joseph, as mayor, to get the city council to order the destruction of the press, the surrounding communities were very alarmed. Here was a blatant affront to the Freedom of Speech, and the surrounding communities felt that Joseph had gone too far.
Joseph initially ran from the law, as he had done in times past, but for various reasons finally decided to submit. He was arrested, and as we all know, finally killed at Carthage. Much of the turmoil that followed was internally-based rather than externally based, but eventually, the tensions mounted between the theocracy and the surrounding non-LDS communities for largely the same reasons as Missouri. The Saints isolated themselves from the non-Mormons, spouted rhetoric of their demise, and held enough power with their block voting to make the non-Mormons very suspicious.
So, the Illinoisans kicked the Saints out as well, just as the Missourians had done a few years earlier. The blame certainly doesn't lie solely on the Saints, but neither does it lie solely on the non-Mormons, in my opinion. Certainly both sides share in the lack of communication and outreach that precipitated the inevitable escalations of tension between the two groups.
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Posted: 18 April 2007 08:16 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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duryen:
unless somebody responds, I'll need some time to assemble a brief but coherent summary of the sequential events underlying the Kirtland problems and the Nauvoo problems. I can say that the catalytic event leading to JS's permanent exodus from Kirltand was the fallout from the failure of the Bank he established.
In Independence, MO (Jackson, County) the press was owned by the church and destroyed by the local citizens in response upon learning from the Saints' first publication of JS's revealations, which was interpreted by the citizens to say in effect: 'this land is our inheritance as declared by God and we're authorized to take it by violence if necessary'. The citizens were less than sympathetic to this suggestion. In Nauvoo, the Nauvoo Expositor press was owned by dissidents and destroyed by the city government (i.e., JS).
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Posted: 18 April 2007 08:23 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
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good summary amberale! says it all.
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Posted: 18 April 2007 08:30 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
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Can I get a round of applause for amberale's 60-second whirl-wind tour of Mormon persecution? Holy cow, that was both succinct and spot-on! Thanks!
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Posted: 18 April 2007 09:05 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
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amberale
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Aw, thanks! grin
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Posted: 18 April 2007 09:43 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 11 ]
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free thinker
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Thanks Amber
Well done indeed. That was thourough and fair.
I never knew what happened in Kirtland until I read Brodie's book. One thing you did not mention is that Joseph and Sidney left Kirtland in the dark of night. That struck me as a bit cowardly.
I think Smith really was a bit of a coward. He also needed later to be talked back into retuning to Nauvoo after heading west and leaving the Saints behind. I see him as a coward as well as a liar.
ft
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Posted: 18 April 2007 09:47 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 12 ]
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Anyone see any patterns here?
Set up shop
get in trouble
move away from the trouble
Go to step 1
Was Smith a con-man?
Well if it swims like a duck and it quacks like a duck...
It ain't no pigeon.
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Posted: 18 April 2007 10:01 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 13 ]
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amberale
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free thinker:
One thing you did not mention is that Joseph and Sidney left Kirtland in the dark of night. That struck me as a bit cowardly.
I think Smith really was a bit of a coward. He also needed later to be talked back into retuning to Nauvoo after heading west and leaving the Saints behind. I see him as a coward as well as a liar.
Yeah, I have to say that I agree with you. Maybe there is a fine line between prudence and cowardice, but sometimes it seems as though JS straddle that line a bit much.
Grape Nephi
Anyone see any patterns here?
Set up shop
get in trouble
move away from the trouble
Go to step 1
Was Smith a con-man?
Well if it swims like a duck and it quacks like a duck…
It ain't no pigeon.
LOL!
The other thing I have to ask myself when looking at all these moves is this: What is the more likely explanation?
Due in part to their own actions, the early Mormons alienated their neighbors wherever they went; OR
The early Mormons just happened to move into 5 different areas (NY, Ohio, Jackson Co. MO, Clay Co. MO, Illinois) full of people who were unusually intolerant of different or new religions, who then wished to persecute them.
Which is the more likely of the two choices? To me, the first is the most likely. Although, I guess a TBM might choose the 2nd, saying that Satan worked the residents into a frenzy. ::roll eyes::
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Posted: 18 April 2007 10:14 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 14 ]
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Nice framing of history amberale. Thanks!
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Posted: 18 April 2007 10:51 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 15 ]
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One of the seldom mentioned reasons for the Missouri persecutions is found in the Doctrine and Covemants 101:1-2: "Verily I say unto you, concerning your brethren who have been afflicted, and persecuted, and cast out from the land of their inheritance-I, the Lord, have suffered the affliction to come upon them, wherewith they have been afflicted, in consequence of their transgressions." Verse 6 goes on to say: "Behold, I say unto you, there were jarrings, and contentions, and envyings, and strifes, and lustful and covetous desires among them; therefore by these things they polluted their inheritances."
So there you have it-straight from the source. The Mormons were driven out of Missouri because of their wickedness.
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Posted: 18 April 2007 11:01 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 16 ]
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See! I told you that ya'll were much better read and more intelligent on the subject! Amberale, thax, you did a great job with the summary! It is much easier to understand the politics and motives behind the people that eventually became angry with the saints.
So what happened in Council Bluffs? I used to live in Sioux City, Iowa and went to Council Bluffs a few times and was never 100% okay with the church description of simple being attacked and cut off from supplies simply because of religion. Is there more to the story?
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Posted: 19 April 2007 01:07 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 17 ]
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Duryen
The MoInc is all about selling a story to people also. It is a much more compelling story to sell folks if they paint themselves as a peaceful, god following group of conservative, hard working and honest pioneers who were the "under dog" and were victimized by mainstream bullies. The true history of the group and founder paints a much more violent, zealot counter-culture who were repeatedly kicked around from one state to the next, because no one would have them.
Posted: 19 April 2007 04:56 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 18 ]
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amberale
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duryen:
So what happened in Council Bluffs? I used to live in Sioux City, Iowa and went to Council Bluffs a few times and was never 100% okay with the church description of simple being attacked and cut off from supplies simply because of religion. Is there more to the story?
Hmm... I have to admit that I'm not aware of any major controversy in Council Bluffs. As far as I know, Council Bluffs was merely a stopping off point for the Mormon Exodus as they travelled to Utah. Although, maybe you're thinking of a specific event that I'm not thinking of?
Off the top of my head I can't think of any tensions in the vein of Nauvoo and Missouri that would relate to Council Bluffs. That's not a very good answer for you. Sorry!
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Posted: 19 April 2007 06:54 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 19 ]
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Amber,
Do you know/have a decent place you can reference all that wonderful information??
Pretty please with sugar on top?
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Posted: 19 April 2007 07:01 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 20 ]
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amberale
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bigbear:
Amber,
Do you know/have a decent place you can reference all that wonderful information??
Pretty please with sugar on top?
That's a good idea. I guess this would be good information to have readily available to new members of the DAMU. Maybe I'll clean up my post, maybe add a couple of footnotes, and put it on Zarahemla City Limits for future reference. Perhaps others would like a brief overview of the "persecutions" we've vaguely heard of growing up in the Church.
Thanks for the suggestion!
AA
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Posted: 19 April 2007 07:17 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 21 ]
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Well I must admit I'm asking for selfish reasons. I'm constantly rugged pulled when I have information that I don't have the actual source for. Of course it REALLY helps if it is actual lds based info or third party. No something "anti", but of course everyone is, aren't they?
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The religious beliefs behind Prop. 8 portray a perverse God who creates all with a need for close personal relationships but then creates 10 percent unworthy ever to enter into such relationships. I choose not to believe in such a God
Posted: 19 April 2007 07:34 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 22 ]
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Keep in mind, that when evidence against the church's validity are branded as "ANTI-MORMON LIES" that in any of the church's history that can be considered dubious, (and what part can't) there is only one set of lies that can be easily documented. That is the set of lies surrounding the initial practice of Polygamy, and the liars were the Mormon officials.
From Smiths vigorus denials of polygamy 10 years after his envolvement with Fanny Algier, and while he was energetically recruiting wives, to the written denials issued by polygamy practicing apostles. There should be no doubt in any mind who the liars have been from day one.
Maybe the Book of Abraham fraud is a close second.
And Mormons claim to be trying to be like Jesus. I can't think of a single time Jesus lied about one of his teaching to cover his Ass, nor when he gave any of his followers advice to do so.
Posted: 19 April 2007 08:13 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 23 ]
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Amberale gave a detailed summary of historical events based on a clouded interpretation. I say clouded because when history is written it is difficult not to leave one's footprint in the interpretation. However, Jeff Lindsey also gives a wonder summary to the events that take just a different turn from amberale's interpretation. It can be found here:
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_Missouri.shtml
History is a wonderful subject to research. But I try to keep in mind that interpretations of history usually stress some bias especially when lds history is dissected and discussed. Religious bigotry played a key role in Mormon persecution and to overlook frontier bigotry and momron persecution would be a gross mistake. Strange, how critics seem to overlook frontier bigotry when critics look at lds history.
Would anyone here condone such actions now against a religious organization?
Posted: 19 April 2007 09:48 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 24 ]
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Invisible Man:
Amberale gave a detailed summary of historical events based on a clouded interpretation. I say clouded because when history is written it is difficult not to leave one's footprint in the interpretation. However, Jeff Lindsey also gives a wonder summary to the events that take just a different turn from amberale's interpretation. It can be found here:
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_Missouri.shtml
History is a wonderful subject to research. But I try to keep in mind that interpretations of history usually stress some bias especially when lds history is dissected and discussed. Religious bigotry played a key role in Mormon persecution and to overlook frontier bigotry and momron persecution would be a gross mistake. Strange, how critics seem to overlook frontier bigotry when critics look at lds history.
Would anyone here condone such actions now against a religious organization?
Why especially LDS history?
People within the church, from the leadership on down, love to play up the idea that the church has been persecuted from the start for no reason. Everything taught about church history from within the church lends an air to this "persecution".
The saints were driven out from every place they tried to live before coming to Utah.
Joseph Smith was "martyred" by "hatefu"l people while simply trying to guide the true chrch.
Utah wasn't even allowed to become a state until the mormons agreed to give up polygamy, or was this "persecution" skewed as well?
I have been to literally thousands of lessons when I was in the church that played the religious persecution card and it goes beyond just the early church. So and so was teased for not drinking, or his funny underwear, not swearing, the list goes on and on.
The belief that mormons have always been persecuted, are still considered odd and are persecuted for this to a dgree and will always be persecuted to a degree, gives them yet another reason to believe that they are right and everybody else is wrong. Why else would everybody hate them?
Posted: 19 April 2007 12:22 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 25 ]
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hotrod:
One of the seldom mentioned reasons for the Missouri persecutions is found in the Doctrine and Covemants 101:1-2: "Verily I say unto you, concerning your brethren who have been afflicted, and persecuted, and cast out from the land of their inheritance-I, the Lord, have suffered the affliction to come upon them, wherewith they have been afflicted, in consequence of their transgressions." Verse 6 goes on to say: "Behold, I say unto you, there were jarrings, and contentions, and envyings, and strifes, and lustful and covetous desires among them; therefore by these things they polluted their inheritances."
So there you have it-straight from the source. The Mormons were driven out of Missouri because of their wickedness.
The Lord or JS, his spokesman, was badly afflicted with afflictions wasn't he. One would have thought God would have a better grasp on the English language!
Daryl
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Posted: 19 April 2007 12:41 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 26 ]
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Ctus:
Invisible Man:
Amberale gave a detailed summary of historical events based on a clouded interpretation. I say clouded because when history is written it is difficult not to leave one's footprint in the interpretation. However, Jeff Lindsey also gives a wonder summary to the events that take just a different turn from amberale's interpretation. It can be found here:
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_Missouri.shtml
History is a wonderful subject to research. But I try to keep in mind that interpretations of history usually stress some bias especially when lds history is dissected and discussed. Religious bigotry played a key role in Mormon persecution and to overlook frontier bigotry and momron persecution would be a gross mistake. Strange, how critics seem to overlook frontier bigotry when critics look at lds history.
Would anyone here condone such actions now against a religious organization?
Why especially LDS history?
People within the church, from the leadership on down, love to play up the idea that the church has been persecuted from the start for no reason. Everything taught about church history from within the church lends an air to this "persecution".
The saints were driven out from every place they tried to live before coming to Utah.
Joseph Smith was "martyred" by "hatefu"l people while simply trying to guide the true chrch.
Utah wasn't even allowed to become a state until the mormons agreed to give up polygamy, or was this "persecution" skewed as well?
I have been to literally thousands of lessons when I was in the church that played the religious persecution card and it goes beyond just the early church. So and so was teased for not drinking, or his funny underwear, not swearing, the list goes on and on.
The belief that mormons have always been persecuted, are still considered odd and are persecuted for this to a dgree and will always be persecuted to a degree, gives them yet another reason to believe that they are right and everybody else is wrong. Why else would everybody hate them?
Ctus,
That insistance that they were always the victim was one of the early things that activated my radar that all was not well in Zion.
In the REAL world no party is ever ALWAYS 100% guilt free. They always contribute something to the mix, consciously or unconsciously. But McMo was always right, always the wronged party.
It just didn't ring true for me.
Like I was so lucky, so blessed to be born into the one and only true church.
Sorry, just didn't gel. Always seemed sus.
As Spong pointed out, fundamentalist religions work out of a 'I'm OK, You'e Not OK' TA mindset. It is the same mindset of 80% of the population of prisons.
Track all this back to Smith's narcissism. He believed he could break the law with impunity, but when the law started to catch up with him, he claimed to be a victim, some poor hapless recipient of bastardry, in no way a creator of his own $hit.
Stop, please! I'm gonna cry.
Daryl
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Posted: 19 April 2007 01:07 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 27 ]
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Born Free:
Ctus,
That insistance that they were always the victim was one of the early things that activated my radar that all was not well in Zion.
In the REAL world no party is ever ALWAYS 100% guilt free. They always contribute something to the mix, consciously or unconsciously. But McMo was always right, always the wronged party.
It just didn't ring true for me.
Like I was so lucky, so blessed to be born into the one and only true church.
Sorry, just didn't gel. Always seemed sus.
As Spong pointed out, fundamentalist religions work out of a 'I'm OK, You'e Not OK' TA mindset. It is the same mindset of 80% of the population of prisons.
Track all this back to Smith's narcissism. He believed he could break the law with impunity, but when the law started to catch up with him, he claimed to be a victim, some poor hapless recipient of bastardry, in no way a creator of his own $hit.
Stop, please! I'm gonna cry.
Daryl
Narcissism is absolutely right, and it lives on today. That is the foundation of the stranglehold the church has on people. The claim of being the only true church keeps people fearful of allowing themselves the luxury of doubting. Reading anything that might make one doubt might cause the faith to waiver.
It was easy for me, even as a faithful mormon, to see the condescending attitude toward those without the "truth". The tradition of narcissism lives on!
Posted: 19 April 2007 02:02 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 28 ]
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peter_mary
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Invisible Man:
Amberale gave a detailed summary of historical events based on a clouded interpretation. I say clouded because when history is written it is difficult not to leave one's footprint in the interpretation. However, Jeff Lindsey also gives a wonder summary to the events that take just a different turn from amberale's interpretation. It can be found here:
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_Missouri.shtml
History is a wonderful subject to research. But I try to keep in mind that interpretations of history usually stress some bias especially when lds history is dissected and discussed. Religious bigotry played a key role in Mormon persecution and to overlook frontier bigotry and momron persecution would be a gross mistake. Strange, how critics seem to overlook frontier bigotry when critics look at lds history.
Would anyone here condone such actions now against a religious organization?
Boy-howdy, would I have to disagree. I DO agree that history is anything but objective. However, I think amberale's summary could hardly be called "clouded." To me, you're inferring that it is "obscured", perhaps even deliberately so, and that's simply not true. Now it might be that you (and Mr. Lindsay) choose to come to different conclusions, but are you willing to concede that such conclusions would be equally "cloudy?"
History is by its very nature only interesting when it is interpreted by people. Mormons interpret their history in a manner that strengthens them. Anti-Mormons interpret it in a manner that demeans the church. I don't think very many people have actually left the church from reading anti-mormon history. My library is full of books from active LDS historians. For me, I think you have to read as much as you can from all points of view, and draw your own conclusions...because ultimately you are studying history (most of us anyway) for the purpose of understanding what it is YOU believe. The REALITY of the history (if there is such a thing) is actually secondary to what it MEANS to the student of history.
What I don't agree with is "shaping" history, "rewriting" history, or "ignoring" history if it doesn't meet your needs. That's just intellectual denial or dishonesty.
I think that Bushman's book "Rough Stone Rolling" is a reasonable enough accounting for the very things that amberale summarized, and though Bushman sometimes goes a little softer on the Saints or Joseph than I would, he is fair in that he at least concedes that both sides were easily excitable, and hostilities went both ways.
Now, specifically when you say, "Religious bigotry played a key role" in the expulsion of the Saints from Missouri, I would cotend that you are correct...if by bigotry you mean the "antagonism of the Missourians toward the Mormons because their RELIGIOUS LEADERS taught the Mormons that Missouri was their manifest destiny." See, I don't agree that Missouri was just outright hostile to the Mormons from the get-go because of their religion. Suspicious--possibly. America was rife with religious inovators and peculiar sects, and the frontier was a wide-open place for people to do whatever it was they were gonna do. I think that less than the religion of the Mormons, it was their growing size, and their solidarity behind a religious movement that seemed so utterly at odds with the frontier mentality that threatened the Missouri locals. The frontiersmen of Jackson County lived where they did because they valued the rough, on-the-edge-of-the-wilderness way of life, and when the Mormons moved in and tried to settle the place, the locals were hostile. It wasn't about religion, it was about differences in general. The religion was just an easy difference to hang those hostilities on.
That's how it looks from outer darkness, anyway...
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Posted: 19 April 2007 08:45 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 29 ]
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IM:
when history is written it is difficult not to leave one's footprint in the interpretation…… Jeff Lindsey also gives a wonder summary
I couldn’t agree with you more. Jeff Lindsey’s ‘wonderful’ summary underscores the point. Although I can agree with many points in Lindsey’s summary, it is anything but balanced and the giant interpretive footprint of apologetic bias is glaringly apparent.
Perpetuating the myth that Sampson Avard was singularly responsible for the establishment of the Danites is one example. A balanced summary would at lease present all existing disconfirming evidence. But I forget ‘all truths aren’t that useful’ (BKP).
Whether Avard acted alone or not is debatable. Dismissing Avard as a renegade doesn’t acknowledge the main point. It was Smith’s theology that directly or indirectly nurtured and spawned the Danite organization and associated depravations.
I also find this quote of Lindsey to be disingenuous:
Latter-day Saints and especially their leaders had demonstrated commendable restraint in their response to violence time after time in the early days of the Church. Shunning aggression and retribution, Latter-day Saint actions had been essentially defensive.
The facts speak otherwise.
I also acknowledge that historical biases also exist in critical summaries. Peter_Mary has covered it well and my comments would be redundant.
I would however like to discuss the topic of ‘religious persecution’. IMO, the debate centers on one’s understanding of the meaning of ‘religious persecution’. Participants in the debate tend to internalize and emphasize different perspectives.
Church propaganda historically perpetuated the myth that the persecutions were primarily caused by religious bigotry. The ‘Legacy’ movie underscores this point. It is understandable, since the ‘faithful members’ that experienced the persecutions saw it this way. Their writings would naturally view it this way.
Many Mormons, past and present, tend to have a blind spot for any accountability for the persecutions. It’s this lack of acknowledgment that causes both no-mos and post-mos to speak up.
A balanced view suggests some percentage of Mormon culpability.
Let me focus on the Jackson County persecutions as an example. Indisputably, religious bigotry existed as reflected in a document that was drafted at a mass meeting of the settlers in Jackson County, Missouri, in July 1833. However, it was the secular implications of the theology that threatened the settlers….not theological academia. The rapid invasion of large masses of an exclusionary people (mostly from pro-abolitionist states) amplified their fears:
o fear of loosing economic power
o fear of loosing political power
o fear of loosing pro-slavery control
o fear of expulsion from their homes
o fear of loosing their lives
o fear of a Mormon/Indian military alliance to accomplish violent ends
o etc.
Undoubtedly, some of these fears were misplaced but not without basis. Although the settlers viewed Smith as an imposture and blasphemous, pronouncements emanating from him and his followers were potentially life-threatening. Since Mormons accepted Smith’s word as God’s word and acted as a block, pronouncements from his followers who “prophesied that before five years, all unbelievers in Jackson County would be destroyed” were not taken as idle threats.
I personally accept the assertion that Mormons experienced religious persecution, but only in the context of the theology’s secular implications. Theology and secular implications were inextricably intertwined.
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Posted: 19 April 2007 09:15 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 30 ]
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Are you going to respond to the above comments or is this going to be your usual cowardly hit and run? You seem to me to be a coward. You come into a conversation and lay out a tidbit, and then are challenged, but do not respond. Dont you have anything to say here in response?
I read the official church history for thirty years. When I was independently studying the history that was less biased, I was given a completely different picture. The contrast between the two is so stark that I had to conclude that official church history was deceptive based on what it emphasized, and what it left out.
ft
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Posted: 19 April 2007 10:55 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 31 ]
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First, some thoughts about D&C 101. Why would it be said that "I, the Lord, have suffered the affliction to come upon them, wherewith they have been afflicted, in consequence of their transgressions?"
Joseph had made some outrageous promises to the Saints regarding Missouri, the land of their inheritance. When it seemed improbable that those promises could be fulfilled Joseph needed a scapegoat. Could he blame the Missourians? No! If the Missourians were the fault of the failure to establish Zion surely the Lord would sweep them aside so the faithful saints could establish their holy city. So, who are you going to blame? Why the saints themselves of course. That is the only explanation they could really accept. Obviously, they knew they had commited some transgressions. Joseph told them they were being chastened and tried, and that eventually Zion would be established.
A very good book on the Nauvoo period is Cultures in Conflict: A Documentary History of the Mormon War in Illinois by John E. Hallwas and Roger D. Launis. The documents vividly describe the conflict created by "...an ambitious theocracy that asserted itself within a Jacksonian social environment deeply devoted to democracy."
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Posted: 20 April 2007 05:42 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 32 ]
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peter_mary:
Invisible Man:
History is by its very nature only interesting when it is interpreted by people. Mormons interpret their history in a manner that strengthens them. Anti-Mormons interpret it in a manner that demeans the church. I don't think very many people have actually left the church from reading anti-mormon history. My library is full of books from active LDS historians. For me, I think you have to read as much as you can from all points of view, and draw your own conclusions...because ultimately you are studying history (most of us anyway) for the purpose of understanding what it is YOU believe. The REALITY of the history (if there is such a thing) is actually secondary to what it MEANS to the student of history.
This was my point exactly. I may not agree with Amberale's interpretation but it needs to be stressed that history is up to interpretation and points of view. Amberale gave one interpretation but there are many others out there. My position is simple. The saints were wrongly persecuted since no one for any reason deserves that kind of treatment. If we condone that treatment then we become barbarians and we are uncivilized. This is why I asked the question if we would tolerate such behavior today as done by the local mobs at that time.
What the early saints experienced was a travesty of justice since the US was a free society created for religious freedom among other freedoms. If people on this forum can not see this contradiction then they need to take their blinders off and see injustice when it occurs regardless of the people persecuted and what those people may believe.
Posted: 20 April 2007 05:43 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 33 ]
Invisible Man
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free thinker:
Invisible Man
Are you going to respond to the above comments or is this going to be your usual cowardly hit and run? You seem to me to be a coward. You come into a conversation and lay out a tidbit, and then are challenged, but do not respond. Dont you have anything to say here in response?
I read the official church history for thirty years. When I was independently studying the history that was less biased, I was given a completely different picture. The contrast between the two is so stark that I had to conclude that official church history was deceptive based on what it emphasized, and what it left out.
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I am not here 24/7. Sorry for the delay.
Posted: 20 April 2007 05:51 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 34 ]
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peter_mary
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Invisible Man:
What the early saints experienced was a travesty of justice since the US was a free society created for religious freedom among other freedoms. If people on this forum can not see this contradiction then they need to take their blinders off and see injustice when it occurs regardless of the people persecuted and what those people may believe.
Hey, you won't get any argument from me on that point! There is no question that the manner in which the affair was handled was downright awful, all the way around. What is important to this discussion is to try to understand WHY it happened, not justify it.
The "why" is pretty complicated, and their is plenty of blame on both sides of the fence.
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Posted: 20 April 2007 05:55 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 35 ]
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Jeff Ricks
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Invisible Man:
This was my point exactly. I may not agree with Amberale's interpretation but it needs to be stressed that history is up to interpretation and points of view. Amberale gave one interpretation but there are many others out there. My position is simple. The saints were wrongly persecuted since no one for any reason deserves that kind of treatment. If we condone that treatment then we become barbarians and we are uncivilized. This is why I asked the question if we would tolerate such behavior today as done by the local mobs at that time.
What the early saints experienced was a travesty of justice since the US was a free society created for religious freedom among other freedoms. If people on this forum can not see this contradiction then they need to take their blinders off and see injustice when it occurs regardless of the people persecuted and what those people may believe.
No one here is condoning persecution of any kind. I would call your argument an obvious red herring that you're using to sidetrack the real issue. The issue as I see it is how much responsibilty does the early church bear for its persecution? Invisible Man, what would you say on a scale from 1 to 10, with 1 being no responsibilibty whatsoever, and 10 being full responsibility? I call it a 7.
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Posted: 20 April 2007 06:33 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 36 ]
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YesIAmAPyr8
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Most people who start up a little self-rpomotion fest for themselves and call it a religion usually fail. The David Koreshes and Marshall Applewhites of our time have a hard time getting traction.
Joseph Smith's group managed to survive those early formative years, and it probably helped to have a martyr to cleave to.
The point is, there is a tendency for these enterprises to collapse on themselves, in this case, circumstances, not looking too radical and good PR efforts kept the ball rolling, and when it is handed down through generations, it feeds itself.
I don't buy the rationale that the 'gentiles' were bad for persecuting the early mormons. Everyone tends to favor their own subset of humanity and occasionally conflicts escalate to extremes. It's not an exclusive club membership held by the handcart crowd to be picked on and chased out of town. (Seems like the locals were mostly justified when they ran 'em out.) History abounds with examples of persecution, I won't even start a list...
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Posted: 20 April 2007 06:34 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 37 ]
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Jeff Ricks:
Invisible Man:
This was my point exactly. I may not agree with Amberale's interpretation but it needs to be stressed that history is up to interpretation and points of view. Amberale gave one interpretation but there are many others out there. My position is simple. The saints were wrongly persecuted since no one for any reason deserves that kind of treatment. If we condone that treatment then we become barbarians and we are uncivilized. This is why I asked the question if we would tolerate such behavior today as done by the local mobs at that time.
What the early saints experienced was a travesty of justice since the US was a free society created for religious freedom among other freedoms. If people on this forum can not see this contradiction then they need to take their blinders off and see injustice when it occurs regardless of the people persecuted and what those people may believe.
No one here is condoning persecution of any kind. I would call your argument an obvious red herring that you're using to sidetrack the real issue. The issue as I see it is how much responsibilty does the early church bear for its persecution? Invisible Man, what would you say on a scale from 1 to 10, with 1 being no responsibilibty whatsoever, and 10 being full responsibility? I call it a 7.
I would give the early saints a four. Frontier people were not the most accomodating people toward those people who expressed difference. The D & C contains admonishment to the early saints for their behavior. I would still claim that they were treated in a barbaric way by the local population. One can disagree with a group of people but one should not attempt to burn them out and drive them from their homes. This is not the mark of a civilized people.
The saints made mistakes. No question. But the treatment that they received was extreme. It was wrong. It bordered on genocide.
Posted: 20 April 2007 07:59 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 38 ]
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amberale
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Invisible Man:
I would give the early saints a four.
I think that would be fair. I'd probably give the early saints a 5 or so. My summary above was not meant to place all the blame on the Saints by any means. You are exactly right that they were treated unfairly much of the time, and the surrounding population should have been more restrained.
My emphasis above was a counter-balance to the propaganda usually put out by the LDS Church in which the Saints are portrayed as being victims without giving any provocation.
Here is where I need to tread a little carefully, too. What I don't want to do is blame the victim. Certainly if a man is assaulted on the sidewalk I wouldn't want to tell him that it's his fault that he got mugged, because in the end, it's the mugger who has the ultimate responsibility.
Yet, at the same time, when analyzing the events that led up to the assault, you have to be somewhat objective and realize that the man may have played some part in the ordeal, however inadvertent his actions may have been. For example, let's say that this sidewalk is not in a good neighborhood; let's also say that this man is a drug addict and was seeking out a dealer in order to score some heroin. Furthermore, let's say that he let it slip that he had $500 on him.
Given the neighborhood, the amount of cash the man had, and the comparitively weak state he would have been in (being a drug addict), these circumstances would bring out strong, aggressive, predatorial instincts in some of the surrounding criminals, which would prompt an attack. Does this mean that a court should side with the criminal in his case? Absolutely not! Legally, he has no responsibility for what happened to him, but socially -- speaking strictly from a scientific cause-and-effect viewpoint -- you can say that he contributed to the attack. For instance, what would have happened in the same circumstances if some of the variables were changed? Like, for instance, if no one knew that he had $500 on him? Or if instead of being a weak heroin addict, he was a very big, strong, mean-looking guy?
So, by pointing out how the Saints were partially responsible for their situations, we are in no way excusing such attrocities as Haun's Mill, or anything like that. Absolutely not. From a legal perspective, aggressors are aggressors and should be dealt with harshly. But, if we are trying to understand the whole cause-and-effect thing, we have to carefully consider how the Saints contributed -- however inadvertently -- to their neighbors' animosity.
Buying into the Church's propaganda that the Saints had no responsibility is silly. But, most of us who grew up in the Church did just that for most of our lives. It's only now, when we want to know the real causes for all the animosity surrounding the early saints that it's important to emphasize their rhetoric, their actions, and their political gaffes that contributed to the cause-and-effect picture that eventually led to their "persecution."
The Church's PR machine spins the Saint's troubles into a faith-promoting story -- i.e., the surrounding communities hated the fact that the Saints had a prophet, and wished to silence the prophet. Or they thought the Book of Mormon was blasphemy, so they wanted to "destroy" the Saints. Or, Satan didn't want "the work" to go forth, and stirred up the hearts of men around the Saints in order to destroy them.
So, as people who are questioning the PR machine, it's natural for us to focus on what really happened. What was the Saint's real culpability? What does that mean to the stories we all used to see as faith-promoting?
Perhaps my overall point is: What you may see as us taking things too far in blaming the Saints may be just us focusing in on their potential culpabilities. I think most of us recognize that the surrounding non-Mormons had plenty of culpability of their own. However, it is always good to have folks such as you come here and remind us not to place too much blame on the Saints. Certainly there is plenty of blame to go around.
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Posted: 20 April 2007 08:18 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 39 ]
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free thinker
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I am not here 24/7. Sorry for the delay.
Thank you for responding. I apologize for the name calling. It is not my normal attitude and I will try to keep my composure in the future.
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