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Was Joseph Smith’s Vision due to Epilepsy?  
Posted: 11 February 2014 11:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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skepticalthayne
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An article recently postulated that the religious zeal expressed by Joan of Arc might have been due to an epilepsy seizure disorder.  If it was, perhaps some of the claims of Joseph Smith could also be described as a frontal lobe seizure of the brain.
 
http://knopfdoubleday.com/2014/01/30/was-joan-of-arc-epileptic-the-future-of-the-mind/
 
Maybe one day we will ascribe this kind of religiosity in these terms.
 

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Posted: 11 February 2014 12:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
Celestial Wedgie
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I used to think that Joseph Smith's visions and copious doctrines, revelations, and preaching might be the result of interictal syndrome, which can include hypergraphia and hyperreligiosty.  I actually got the idea as an undergraduate at BYU; the professor in my neurobiology class speculated about it during a lecture.  We had a short but lively discussion of best diagnoses for Joseph Smith and then got back onto the syllabus.  It was one of the most memorable classroom moments from my entire BYU experience, a time when the topic was brought to bear directly on interests that we had in common.  Great teaching tactic, probably, although I really think it was just a teacher letting down his guard and saying what he really thought.  Moments like that were uncommon at BYU, sadly.
 
I think I liked the seizure hypothesis because at the time I was still trying to be relatively agreeable about Mormonism and that idea was less condemning than the other competing explanation: Joseph Smith was a narcissistic, conniving scam artist.  But over then years I've seen my opinion shift: there's just too much evidence of the narcissistic, conniving scam artist, which makes the interictal syndrome an unnecessary hypothesis.  It might be accurate, but instead I now suspect that Smith observed someone with a seizure disorder and copied their behavior, incorporating it into his ego-expanding fraud.  He clearly was gifted at copy/paste tactics, whether with storylines, word style, or behaviors.


   


Posted: 11 February 2014 12:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Elder OldDog
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Nothing against the theory, but yesterday at golf my foursome came across a guy at the roadway side of the 18th fairway who was collapsed in a heap.  We thought he was fuckin' dead and wondered if we'd be penalized for delay of game to see to the removal of his remains.
 
But he was just passed out.  Because I'm the non-social, shy one in our group, I was delegated to check his vitals.  I poked him with my foot and his eyes opened, but he continued to lay there.  He told us that he suffered from epilepsy and had had a seizure.  I offered that it must not have been a grand mal and he said, no, thank baby jesus, otherwise he'd have bitten his tongue and pooped his pants; so it was just a petite mal.  We suggested calling paramedics, and he said not to, that he lived a bit down the road and if we'd help him up, he'd be on his way.  Two of us (both Mexicans; you know how gavachos are...) helped him up, brushed him off and after a bit he tottered off.  Obviously the group behind us had had a lot of trouble on the water hole, par 3 17th hole, because they were just getting to the tee as we went to hit our second shots.
 
In any event, reading the OP, after yesterday's experience, it's hard for me to think of epilepsy as being a progenitor of remarkable, sustainable events.


   


Posted: 11 February 2014 01:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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OldSoul
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Joseph had no problem twisting a false narrative. Still, the person who wrote the official version of the first vision must have experienced sleep paralysis. The description of the "assault" in the story is a perfect match for that. 
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_paralysis
 
 
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Posted: 11 February 2014 04:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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MauEvig
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If anything, if Joseph Smith had ANY kind of brain disorder, my guess is that he would be paranoid Schitzophrenic. This is assuming of course that he wasn't just a narcistic scam artist looking for attention.
 
He obviously had delusions of graduer, and hallucinations, along with the paranoia that everyone was out to get him didn't he? Again, assuming he didn't just make the entire religion up. L. Ron Hubbard is a good example of someone who can make up a religion using one's imagination, a science fiction writer who started the Church of Scientology.
 
But I somehow doubt Smith had the capacity to write as well as that. I remembered the Book of Mormon (A book I got rid of when I left the church, I re-donated the books back to the church as a kind gesture, at least I hope that it didn't show that I hated the Mormons. I don't hate the Mormons, I just hate the Mormon religion. Maybe I should have burned them haha! Oh well too late now) as very poorly written. I think most fanfiction writers on the internet can write better than Smith did, yet he convinced millions of people to follow his religion, and it boggles the mind.


   


Posted: 11 February 2014 04:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
quietlydifferent
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OldSoul:
Joseph had no problem twisting a false narrative. Still, the person who wrote the official version of the first vision must have experienced sleep paralysis. The description of the "assault" in the story is a perfect match for that. 
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_paralysis
 
 
 
 That is interesting. I can't believe I hadn't noticed the similarities to hagging before.


   


Posted: 11 February 2014 05:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
The Big Man
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If we are doing amateur diagnoses, my vote is squarely for narcissistic personality disorder for Joseph Smith.
 
The more I think about it, I've decided all religion is a form of mental abuse called "gaslighting".
 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting
 


   


Posted: 11 February 2014 05:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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MauEvig
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So religion is basically a form of changing one's environment and perception of one's environment?
An interesting theory. This may be the case in the Pentecostal sects then.
Hard tos ay in Mormonism, but wouldn't that mean someone would have had to have done that to Josepth Smith, or did Smith do this to his followers?


   


Posted: 12 February 2014 05:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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Moses, Abraham, Ezekiel, Daniel and even Jesus and Paul...had some form of frontal lobe petit mal seizure disorder. Auras, hallucinations, voices, and visions...accompany this syndrome.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


            
 
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OCTOBER CONFERENCE
"Past, Present, and Possibilities"
Oct. 18-20, 2013




















 


Financial Report for 2011 to Date

Financial Report for 2010 to Date

Financial Report for 2009

Twin Falls Newspaper Article

Twin Falls Billboard

Financial Report for 2009 to Date




The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]

Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]

Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]



Portland Oregon meetup
[Portland Post-Mor...] 
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Open Letter to President Monson (please read and sign)  
Posted: 08 February 2014 12:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
steveholbrook
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As current and former Mormons, many of us have been through emotional turmoil as we’ve struggled with our beliefs. Some of us even made the difficult decision to leave. Our most cherished relationships have been strained or lost. We’ve experienced pain and distress, sometimes having to keep silent out of fear—all because of a lack of understanding between active members and those who question their faith.


With this Open Letter to President Monson, we hope to open up dialogue, not only with Church leadership, but also between families. The letter asks the Church to commit to more transparency and to help us create an atmosphere with more peace and understanding between us and our loved ones—regardless of our beliefs.


You can take action with us. Add your voice by signing your name and sharing it with those you love.
 
  
http://www.mormonopenletter.com/
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Posted: 08 February 2014 04:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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seeking peace
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This letter is so well articulated and expresses the feelings of the Post-Mo community in clear and concise terms. It is certainly something I feel I can share with friends and family. I am very curious why it was taken down from "the other" big exmo site? It is gaing signatures rapidly though and many are posting it on FB.  Thank you, thank you for those who took the time to write this!
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I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man—Thomas Jefferson
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Posted: 08 February 2014 10:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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baneberry
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I just went through the signature list. If a bishop could have these people (all of them) in a ward...  Man, he'd be cooking with gas!  What a sad thing to see people who have been so devoted to the church now feeling disaffected.  I don't think the boys in the COB got, get it, or will get it.  People are pissed off.
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Feeling stronger every day…


   


Posted: 08 February 2014 12:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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howdimissthat
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Ya know...the big 15 throughout many years could have chosen to be transparent.  They did not, in fact they chose to continue to spin and spin and spin.  They do not care about the members in spite of their humble (cough) words to the members telling them they love and care about them.  The only things they care about are how they can use the members money and their energy. 
 
To force their arm until they cry uncle and insist they tell us they are sorry and will be more transparent means nothing, it's disingenuous.  They missed the opportunity to sincerely do that many, many years ago. 
 
I am not inclined to beg them to be honest.  "I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you."  Fredrich Nietzsche.   However, I am upset they lied to me, but I can't believe them no matter how sincere their transparency might appear.


   


Posted: 08 February 2014 12:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Swearing Elder
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"Have fun storming the castle!"
 
 
 
(But, on a serious note, I signed. Good work!)
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Posted: 08 February 2014 01:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
danboyle2
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howdimissthat:
Ya know...the big 15 throughout many years could have chosen to be transparent.  They did not, in fact they chose to continue to spin and spin and spin.  They do not care about the members in spite of their humble (cough) words to the members telling them they love and care about them.  The only things they care about are how they can use the members money and their energy. 
 
To force their arm until they cry uncle and insist they tell us they are sorry and will be more transparent means nothing, it's disingenuous.  They missed the opportunity to sincerely do that many, many years ago. 
 
I am not inclined to beg them to be honest.  "I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you."  Fredrich Nietzsche.   However, I am upset they lied to me, but I can't believe them no matter how sincere their transparency might appear.
 
+1, so very well said.
 
The "brethren" (gag) don't ever do the right thing until they are pressured into  doing it. 
 
They lied to me, and they knew they were lying.
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Posted: 08 February 2014 03:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Even if your disaffection is more than you can stand to be involved with the church anymore, you should sign it just to bring as much pressure from as many sources as possible.  Let them know you were a Mormon.  Squeeze them.
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Feeling stronger every day…


   


Posted: 08 February 2014 05:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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howdimissthat
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baneberry:
Even if your disaffection is more than you can stand to be involved with the church anymore, you should sign it just to bring as much pressure from as many sources as possible.  Let them know you were a Mormon.  Squeeze them.
 
I would if I though they give a shit, but they don't.   As we have seen recently they call any protest against them as bizarre.


   


Posted: 08 February 2014 05:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
rain
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howdimissthat:
baneberry:
Even if your disaffection is more than you can stand to be involved with the church anymore, you should sign it just to bring as much pressure from as many sources as possible.  Let them know you were a Mormon.  Squeeze them.
 
I would if I though they give a shit, but they don't.   As we have seen recently they call any protest against them as bizarre.
They (LDS Inc.) don't.  Everyone sign it in support of Tom. He is the one sticking his neck out.
 
 


   


Posted: 08 February 2014 05:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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priorvej12
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I just read the letter and signed. The signature count is at 1007 now. I think this is so important and I thank Tom for his amazing work. I am still working through some anger issues and being part of the solution ( signing the letter and supporting the law suit) helps. thank you to this community cool smile Solveig 

   


Posted: 08 February 2014 05:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
steveholbrook
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seeking peace:
This letter is so well articulated and expresses the feelings of the Post-Mo community in clear and concise terms. It is certainly something I feel I can share with friends and family. I am very curious why it was taken down from "the other" big exmo site? It is gaing signatures rapidly though and many are posting it on FB.  Thank you, thank you for those who took the time to write this!
 
 We currently have 1014 signatures, as I write this.  We're very pleased that the letter has resonated with you and many others.
I'm not sure which other exmo site you're referring to, but I can say that some moderators of other fora have their own rules and guidelines which they strictly adhere to, and in some cases our postings have been rejected/removed.  Other than this, I can't speak to "why it was taken down".
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Posted: 08 February 2014 07:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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Dovolente
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Nicely written letter, not likely to accomplish much by itself. But small steps eventually may have some positive impact.
 
Signed.
 
I find myself wondering what interesting uses the church might put to such a list of names, and not caring much.


   


Posted: 08 February 2014 09:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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seeking peace:
This letter is so well articulated and expresses the feelings of the Post-Mo community in clear and concise terms. It is certainly something I feel I can share with friends and family. I am very curious why it was taken down from "the other" big exmo site? It is gaing signatures rapidly though and many are posting it on FB.  Thank you, thank you for those who took the time to write this!
 
 If it's RfM, they have a blanket policy against links.
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Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.

Phillip K. Dick


   


Posted: 08 February 2014 10:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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Elder OldDog
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Because I am such a silly goose, I would have addressed the letter to President Monson's puppeteer. 
 
I sincerely doubt that anything is done by the gift of prophecy.it makes much more sense that a business school graduates are running the church now.  


   


Posted: 09 February 2014 08:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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Sister Saucie
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Can someone explain to me why we as exmormons want to have an open dialog with church leadership? They weren't open with us when we were members . Why would we think they would be open with us after we left the church? Why would we think they would have a desire to be honest with us? Why would we want to communicate with them? Why do we care what they think or what they have to say? I don't understand this desire to communicate with an organization that was built on lies and continues to lie to its membership? 

   


Posted: 10 February 2014 01:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
epiph0ne
Member
RankRankRank
Joined  2012-07-18
 
  
 
Very well written and expresses what a lot of post mo's feel and think. I was only in the church for five years before I opened my eyes and realized the life I had been leading and the church I devoted so much to was not all it claims to be. As a post mormon and a spiritual person I like to believe that it wasn't time wasted, I got sober, I got healthy, I found an amazing caring wife who pushes me to be a better person and who helped me realize I wanted to do something withy life, she helped me fill out my application for the job that I fell in love with. Working with adjudicated youth in a detention center trying to show them it's possible to make a life somewhere other than the streets. It's for these reasons I feel like this 5 years were worth it. I do admit to severe sorrow at the loss of what I believed to be the foundation of my new life, I was angry and bitter and hurt. And I'm still pained that the church is part of my everyday life through my tbm wife. It's for her that I signed this letter, not because I would ever wish for her to feel that pain from her world being torn apart should she realize what I have. But that she might one day realize it's only through an open honest relationship there is so much more freedom in religion and spirituality. I never once saw god in the lds church. I never got answers to prayers and the temple was nothing but boring movie and handshakes followed by what felt like a pop quiz. Honestly I'm not sure I believe in god. But when I'm out exploring nature, or listening to a song with such powerful lyrics and emotion, or I'm looking in the eyes of one of the youth I work with and finally see them understand there's hope... That's when I want to believe and that's what makes it all worth it. Religions to me will come and go, there's good and bad, healthy and unhealthy. I do not wish to see the lds church destroyed. I merely want what they already claim, that's honesty for their members and the freedom to choose without fear. I thank the writer of this letter. Even if it falls in deaf ears it is a tool for post Mormons to show we're not all bitter and angry. It's a tool I used to open an honest conversation with my wife. She may disagree but at least I can show that I love her church or not and that she was the foundation of change in my life. Not a church or a book
 Signature
“I’m not upset that you lied to me, I’m upset that from now on I can’t believe you.” ― Friedrich Nietzsche


   


Posted: 10 February 2014 04:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
Avatar
Dovolente
Member
RankRankRank
Joined  2008-03-06
 
  
 
Sister Saucie:
Can someone explain to me why we as exmormons want to have an open dialog with church leadership? They weren't open with us when we were members . Why would we think they would be open with us after we left the church? Why would we think they would have a desire to be honest with us? Why would we want to communicate with them? Why do we care what they think or what they have to say? I don't understand this desire to communicate with an organization that was built on lies and continues to lie to its membership?
 
That's a valid point. It's a little odd to ask for the BS to be more transparent.  
 
I liked the parts of the letter that encourage more tolerant views of former mormons and the plug for temple sealing not being a civil marriage.
 
Those are the sorts of things that don't cost the church much but have the potential for much good in some of our lives. 
 


   


Posted: 10 February 2014 06:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
Avatar
seeking peace
Long Timer
RankRankRankRankRank
Joined  2009-02-18
 
  
 
epiphne:
Very well written and expresses what a lot of post mo's feel and think. I was only in the church for five years before I opened my eyes and realized the life I had been leading and the church I devoted so much to was not all it claims to be. As a post mormon and a spiritual person I like to believe that it wasn't time wasted, I got sober, I got healthy, I found an amazing caring wife who pushes me to be a better person and who helped me realize I wanted to do something withy life, she helped me fill out my application for the job that I fell in love with. Working with adjudicated youth in a detention center trying to show them it's possible to make a life somewhere other than the streets. It's for these reasons I feel like this 5 years were worth it. I do admit to severe sorrow at the loss of what I believed to be the foundation of my new life, I was angry and bitter and hurt. And I'm still pained that the church is part of my everyday life through my tbm wife. It's for her that I signed this letter, not because I would ever wish for her to feel that pain from her world being torn apart should she realize what I have. But that she might one day realize it's only through an open honest relationship there is so much more freedom in religion and spirituality. I never once saw god in the lds church. I never got answers to prayers and the temple was nothing but boring movie and handshakes followed by what felt like a pop quiz. Honestly I'm not sure I believe in god. But when I'm out exploring nature, or listening to a song with such powerful lyrics and emotion, or I'm looking in the eyes of one of the youth I work with and finally see them understand there's hope... That's when I want to believe and that's what makes it all worth it. Religions to me will come and go, there's good and bad, healthy and unhealthy. I do not wish to see the lds church destroyed. I merely want what they already claim, that's honesty for their members and the freedom to choose without fear. I thank the writer of this letter. Even if it falls in deaf ears it is a tool for post Mormons to show we're not all bitter and angry. It's a tool I used to open an honest conversation with my wife. She may disagree but at least I can show that I love her church or not and that she was the foundation of change in my life. Not a church or a book
 
 This is beautifully said!! I am having quite the discussion on FB as to the reason for this letter-you have articulated it perfectly. (Wish you were on my FB feed ) Honesty in a relationship is important--even the honesty between an individual and their former church.
 
 Signature
I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man—Thomas Jefferson
It takes courage to grow up and turn out to be who you really are.—e.e.cummings


   


Posted: 10 February 2014 07:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
Avatar
Lloyd Dobler
Long Timer
RankRankRankRankRank
Joined  2009-07-27
 
  
 
Sister Saucie:
Can someone explain to me why we as exmormons want to have an open dialog with church leadership? They weren't open with us when we were members . Why would we think they would be open with us after we left the church? Why would we think they would have a desire to be honest with us? Why would we want to communicate with them? Why do we care what they think or what they have to say? I don't understand this desire to communicate with an organization that was built on lies and continues to lie to its membership?
 
 
 Signature
William Faulkner drunk and depressed
Dorothy Parker mean, drunk and depressed
And that guy in Seven Years in Tibet turned out to be a nazi
The founding fathers all had slaves, the explorers slaughtered the braves,
The Old Testament God can be so petty

Heroes
JIll Sobule
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mC8Kf8v2apY


   


            
 
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