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 not really mormonism related but is anyone here a road biker?
Author: tibber 5 986  
Posted: 05-09-2007 03:58 PM
Author: jamech 


 What should my TBM wife tell her bishop and stake president?
Author: skeptic 32 2393  
Posted: 05-09-2007 11:37 AM
Author: Jannypanny 


 EX-MO and Weight loss???
Author: Crissy 18 1662  
Posted: 05-09-2007 05:36 AM
Author: Crissy 


 Old Skeptic really put his foot in his mouth today.
Author: skeptic 7 1163  
Posted: 05-09-2007 04:48 AM
Author: Goose 


 How do the apologists get around a proclamation of the Twelve?
Author: Grape Nephi 4 1061  
Posted: 05-09-2007 01:51 AM
Author: amberale 


 testing out Crime Dog’s theory.. follow the money.
Author: pnut 6 1113  
Posted: 05-08-2007 10:06 PM
Author: Crime Dog 


 Jesus and the temple
Author: Grape Nephi 2 853  
Posted: 05-08-2007 09:40 PM
Author: Grape Nephi 


 Looking for Support
Author: ncrm 15 1542  
Posted: 05-08-2007 08:21 PM
Author: Dogzilla Joy 


 Our friend wonders, “What would it take?”
Author: pnut 37 2418  
Posted: 05-08-2007 08:09 PM
Author: skeptic 


 What started your magical thinking and do you have any left?
Author: Jannypanny 14 1477  
Posted: 05-08-2007 07:54 PM
Author: Grape Nephi 


 Calling all young families
Author: yogamom4 4 1050  
Posted: 05-08-2007 06:27 PM
Author: yogamom4 


 Religion: a divisive force
Author: Jeff Ricks 13 1332  
Posted: 05-08-2007 05:00 PM
Author: pnut 


 Mitt’s favorite book is not the BoM
Author: helemon 6 1303  
Posted: 05-08-2007 04:58 PM
Author: nxtOracle 


 Einstein & Faith
Author: Tthom 15 1386  
Posted: 05-08-2007 03:29 PM
Author: Jannypanny 


 Interesting temple story…
Author: poodledoodledude 4 1141  
Posted: 05-08-2007 03:16 PM
Author: Crime Dog 


 Cool video
Author: helemon 3 1138  
Posted: 05-08-2007 03:08 PM
Author: Crime Dog 


 Abusing people and their ‘talents’ in the name of ‘letting your light shine’
Author: Morgan 9 1344  
Posted: 05-08-2007 06:29 AM
Author: igmomma 


 MMMMmmmmargarita!
Author: Jannypanny 9 1365  
Posted: 05-08-2007 05:55 AM
Author: igmomma 


 New revision of 6th article of faith article
Author: Grape Nephi 6 1042  
Posted: 05-08-2007 05:28 AM
Author: Crissy 


 Walt Witman’s “Leaves of Grass?”
Author: pnut 5 1308  
Posted: 05-08-2007 12:28 AM
Author: Lysis 


 Part-Member Couples and Temple Wedding Invitations
Author: MJ75 3 1109  
Posted: 05-07-2007 11:08 PM
Author: YesIAmAPyr8 


 I am a follower of Jesus but not a Christian
Author: Grape Nephi 19 2060  
Posted: 05-07-2007 06:44 PM
Author: pnut 


 Want to start your own cult?
Author: Grape Nephi 16 1882  
Posted: 05-07-2007 03:44 PM
Author: rosetta stone 


 Crazy mormons!
Author: igmomma 30 3010  
Posted: 05-07-2007 03:40 PM
Author: Dogzilla Joy 


 What the HELL are these people on?
Author: bobcat 5 1039  
Posted: 05-07-2007 03:27 PM
Author: Dogzilla Joy 


 young singles…....what about young married?
Author: CJ 1 1008  
Posted: 05-07-2007 08:43 AM
Author: Lysis 


 Older men more likely to father children with autism & schizophrenia
Author: helemon 1 909  
Posted: 05-07-2007 07:40 AM
Author: miss taken 


 Mountain Meadows Massacre….5 minute streaming video history.
Author: pnut 0 806  
Posted: 05-07-2007 05:55 AM
Author: pnut 


 Story mentioned in my greeting
Author: Son of Snort 7 1129  
Posted: 05-07-2007 03:58 AM
Author: skeptic 


 Hello
Author: Son of Snort 10 1429  
Posted: 05-07-2007 03:14 AM
Author: Jannypanny 


 Healing Songs, Poetry, and Metaphors of Our Journey Out of Cognitive Dissonance
Author: Daniel2 7 1611  
Posted: 05-06-2007 11:40 PM
Author: free thinker 


 Australian priest says prayers to end drought ‘pointless’
Author: helemon 2 1111  
Posted: 05-06-2007 11:25 PM
Author: free thinker 


 “Witches” burned at the stake
Author: helemon 2 1020  
Posted: 05-06-2007 08:44 PM
Author: Goose 


 Did you know?
Author: Grape Nephi 2 1001  
Posted: 05-06-2007 08:41 PM
Author: Goose 


 Atheist fired from job on egg farm
Author: helemon 4 1326  
Posted: 05-06-2007 12:54 PM
Author: helemon 



  
   

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 Just when things start to go well.......
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 "Katie Finds a Better Way": A Story for the "Friend" and Musicalkate (New Link)
by DrW
UPDATE on Seminary Problems
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Wine was different in Jesus time
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Depression After Resignation
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Church asks activist group to reconsider plans to protest GC
by Brad (ZeeZrom)
Spin off Post "Cleaning House" - Genealogy
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Cleaning House
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I finally bumped into some Mormon missionaries!
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Scientology Ripped Family Apart-- Doubting (Could have an article like this on the news every night about Mormonism)
by Strong Free & Thankful
Big Bang Theory Proven--Validation for this Scientist's Life's Work--Beautiful!
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Knock on the Door and Bad Memory
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I could use some help!
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Looking for fellow lost souls
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Mormon Church sending people DNA test kits but refusing to comment on results?
by OldSoul
Couldn't a real prophet find that plane?
by Bold Wish
I need help more than LDS corp.
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Mormon kitsch
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A Daring Statement by an 8-year-old
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 Help - I’m sure most of you have heard this one before…..
Author: whatever 39 3319  
Posted: 05-17-2007 04:58 PM
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 Vietnam:  A faith promoting story my father must have forgotten
Author: Odell Campbell 3 1003  
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Author: KimberlyAnn 49 6110  
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 LOL This product was advertised on NPR this morning.
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 Just when things start to go well.......
by Muffin Top
 "Katie Finds a Better Way": A Story for the "Friend" and Musicalkate (New Link)
by DrW
UPDATE on Seminary Problems
by Edmond Dantès
Wine was different in Jesus time
by finex
Depression After Resignation
by finex
Church asks activist group to reconsider plans to protest GC
by Brad (ZeeZrom)
Spin off Post "Cleaning House" - Genealogy
by quietlydifferent
Cleaning House
by blueazure
I finally bumped into some Mormon missionaries!
by Matter Unorganized
Scientology Ripped Family Apart-- Doubting (Could have an article like this on the news every night about Mormonism)
by Strong Free & Thankful
Big Bang Theory Proven--Validation for this Scientist's Life's Work--Beautiful!
by blueazure
Knock on the Door and Bad Memory
by WinstonSmith
I could use some help!
by son of perdition
Looking for fellow lost souls
by Ninon de Lenclos
Mormon Church sending people DNA test kits but refusing to comment on results?
by OldSoul
Couldn't a real prophet find that plane?
by Bold Wish
I need help more than LDS corp.
by victim
Mormon kitsch
by huehuetenango
A Daring Statement by an 8-year-old
by haylee
This is Hard
by Tincan 

  
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OCTOBER CONFERENCE
"Past, Present, and Possibilities"
Oct. 18-20, 2013






























 


Financial Report for 2011 to Date

Financial Report for 2010 to Date

Financial Report for 2009

Twin Falls Newspaper Article

Twin Falls Billboard

Financial Report for 2009 to Date




The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]

Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]

Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]



Portland Oregon meetup
[Portland Post-Mor...] 
Las Vegas March Meetup! Sunday 16th 1pm
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
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[Palmetto Post-Mor...] 
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[San Francisco Bay...] 
March Get Together
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San Diego lunch this Sunday at noon!
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March 2nd 2014-Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series
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[Boston, MA Post-M...] 
Every Sunday in Utah
[Salt Lake City Po...] 
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Swearing Elder

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onendagus

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onendagus

January 5th- Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series
gypsyrose

Book of Mormon Tories
by Tom Donofrio 
Book of Mormon Tories
by Nogginus Skepticalus 
Native American DNA
by GTM 
Ongoing Monthly Gatherings!
Reuben

Ongoing Monthly Gatherings!
Virginia Steve

CALM meet up for June
4bagel

Revised NW Women's Retreat Announcement
lunaverse

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lightrider702

Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
by Timo 
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by ExMoNemo 
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by Mikki B 
Resignation Letter to My Family
Mikki B

Resignation Letter to My Family
Waveoftruth

Resignation Letter to My Family
In search of Truth

Carolina PostMo Night: “The Master"
Swearing Elder

Washington D.C. Post-Mormon Lunch - August 28
freckles

Resignation Letter to My Family
INRETROSPECT

Financial Report for 2011 to Date
by Jeff Ricks 
Resignation Letter to My Family
pennw


            

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Forum Home  >  Member Forums  >  The Community Forum  >  Thread 
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Temple Endowment Ceremony Pre and Post 1990  
Posted: 24 May 2007 06:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
Avatar
hypatia
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There have been several references on the site of the changes in the TEC during the years. It is apparent that veteran ex-mos have had a slightly different experience than some of you younger thesbians-of-the-Garden variety. I came across this site that highlights the changes. As I never had the opportunity to stroll through this particular Eden myself, I cannot speak for its accuracy. Just thought it would be interesting to post.
http://www.lds-mormon.com/compare.shtml
Some of the key changes were:
1. Protestant minister paid by Lucifer to preach false doctrine was eliminated.
2. All penalties (and gestures like throat slashing, chest slashing and bowel slashing) were eliminated.
3. Women's promise to be obedient to husbands was modified.
4. The intimate position at the veil (foot to foot, knee to knee, breast to breast, hand on shoulder and mouth to ear) was eliminated.
5. The strange words "Pay Lay Ale" (meaning "Oh God hear the words of my mouth") were eliminated. 

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“Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all.”
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Posted: 24 May 2007 06:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Grape Nephi
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I was a pre-1990 temple worker. I also attendined the temple post-1990 and can assure you that the changes were indeed made.
So much for Joseph's and other early leaders' note that the ordinance cannot change.



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Savor the wine of life and wield the sword of truth. Sum Ergo cogito. Berucha at Asherah. Reverend William Wilson in Arizona
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Posted: 24 May 2007 06:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Crime Dog
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1974 for me. Came out of that place (Manti) wondering just what the hell it was all about, and deathly afraid to discuss it because of my death oath.
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The only true currency in this bankrupt world if what we share with someone else when we’re uncool.


   


Posted: 24 May 2007 07:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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hypatia
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judge naut:Does anyone know exactly when in 1990 the changes took place? Was it January 1st? Later that year? My first time through was 1990 but it freaked me out so much I can't remember exactly how the whole thing went. I can't remember whether I did the throat slashing, disembowlment thing, or if someone just told me about it later, because I did not go back for years after that, and then only once or maybe twice.

The most accurate date I could come up with is April, 1990. I don't know the exact date.
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“Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all.”
                      -Hypatia of Alexandria


   


Posted: 24 May 2007 07:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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whatever
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Crime Dog:1974 for me. Came out of that place (Manti) wondering just what the hell it was all about, and deathly afraid to discuss it because of my death oath.

Hell I know how you feel.  I still get queezy just thinking about reading a post like this about the temple.  I always felt if I talked about the temple other than "the place to go" then fire and and lightening would come upon me.
What is puzzling and can't figure it out is why pre-1990 people beleived the strange things in the temple.  I'm tempted to ask my parents this weekend to get a feel for why the hell they keep going to the temple when it is not supposed to change.
It's really quite amazing that so many people will accept major changes in the church but if a road gets closed or something happens in their life that changes outside of the church then all hell breaks out such as complaining, moaning, bitching, etc. (at least here in utah).  I don't mind change in life but many people cannot deal with it. 
Anything that changes in the church people have the attitude of "Inspired from God through the ONLY living prophet on earth" but if any other changes occurs in their life it as if the world is out to get them. 

   


Posted: 24 May 2007 07:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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whatever:
Crime Dog:1974 for me. Came out of that place (Manti) wondering just what the hell it was all about, and deathly afraid to discuss it because of my death oath.

Hell I know how you feel.  I still get queezy just thinking about reading a post like this about the temple.  I always felt if I talked about the temple other than "the place to go" then fire and and lightening would come upon me.
 That is exactly why, the first time I went, I bowed my head and said "NO"! (It was probably more like, "no effin way") But I really did it.  I wasn't about to make a pact to have my throat cut in a dark alley by someone from the HP group.  Now, on subsequent visits I probably started saying "yes", but then that would have been for some poor deceased schmuck that wasn't even aware of what I was doing.  I hope nobody was spiritually slashed in Paradise cause I spoke for them.  My bad.
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Posted: 25 May 2007 02:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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hypatia:There have been several references on the site of the changes in the TEC during the years.
Some of the key changes were:
1. Protestant minister paid by Lucifer to preach false doctrine was eliminated.
2. All penalties (and gestures like throat slashing, chest slashing and bowel slashing) were eliminated.
3. Women's promise to be obedient to husbands was modified.
4. The intimate position at the veil (foot to foot, knee to knee, breast to breast, hand on shoulder and mouth to ear) was eliminated.
5. The strange words "Pay Lay Ale" (meaning "Oh God hear the words of my mouth") were eliminated. 




You can add to the list of changes the Washing and Annointings.  No longer is the "shield" slit on the sides so that the ordinance worker can touch your body.  Also, garments are worn into the cubicles. Prior to the change in 2005, you were naked going into the cubicle to receive your washing and annointing, and the temple worker would touch your naked body in certain places as he pronounced the blessings of the ordinance.  According to my mother, patrons are now simply given the blessings of the ordinance by simply laying on of hands and the blessing pronounced by authority of the priesthood.  Women temple workers bless women, men temple workers lay hands on men.  But at no time is any part of the body touched anylonger. 
The following is from an article in the ensign:
August 2001 Ensign
Elder Dennis B. Neuenschwander
The third article of faith teaches, We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
Sacred ordinances and the divine authority to administer them did not begin with the Restoration of the gospel and the founding of the modern Church in 1830. The sacred ordinances of the gospel as requirements for salvation and exaltation were instituted from before the foundation of the world. They have always been an immutable part of the gospel. The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: Ordinances instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the world, in the priesthood, for the salvation of men, are not to be altered or changed. All must be saved on the same principles.
If this were not the case, salvation would indeed be an arbitrary matter and would be restricted to those few who may have been fortunate enough to have heard of, and believed in, Jesus Christ. It is this principle of consistent and unalterable requirements that gives true meaning to the performance of vicarious ordinances in the temple.
"Now the purpose in Himself in the winding up scene of the last dispensation is that all things pertaining to that dispensation should be conducted precisely in accordance with the preceding dispensations.... He set the temple ordinances to be the same forever and ever and set Adam to watch over them, to reveal them from heaven to man, or to send angels to reveal them."- The Prophet Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol.4, p. 208
Through time and apostasy following Christ’s Resurrection and Ascension, however, the divine authority of the priesthood and the sacred ordinances were changed or lost, and the associated covenants were broken. The Lord revealed His displeasure over this situation in these words: "For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant;"
Some quotes from other church authorities:
"...those who administer the sacrament will kneel when asking the blessing. It is not that this form is absolutely essential to the acceptance of this ordinance by the Lord; but it is in accordance with the word of the Lord which was given for our guidance; and where it is possible to follow the written word, in the spirit in which it is given, it is always better to do so. Indeed, by doing so we will avoid a serious wrong, that might eventually grow out of a disregard for the rules that the Lord has established, for it might lead to a changing, to some extent, of the ordinances of the house of God. It is necessary that we should pay proper attention and care to carrying out the purposes of the Lord in the manner which He has already revealed. And this may be extended to other matters of our religion. One of the charges brought against the children of Israel, and mentioned by the prophets in the latter times, was that 'they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.' That is really the complaint against the world today, and it is not meet that we should indulge in any such things."- The Prophet Joseph F.Smith, Collected Discourses Vol.3, p. 308-309
"[Jesus Christ] instituted baptism to set forth this glorious thing unto men. But by degrees, yielding, as was supposed, to necessity, men depart from this manner of administering the ordinance of baptism for the remission of sins, until water sprinkled or poured upon the candidate was held to be sufficient for baptism. Whenever they did that, wherever they did it, they departed from the order established by the Son of God, they changed an ordinance of the Gospel."- Apostle B. H. Roberts, Collected Discourses Vol. 5, p.385
"As temple work progresses, some members wonder if the ordinances can be changed or adjusted. These ordinances have been provided by revelation, and are in the hands of the First Presidency. Thus, the temple is protected from tampering."- W. Grant Bangerter, executive director of the Temple Department and a member of the First Quorum of Seventy, Deseret News, Church Section, January 16, 1982
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So my dear friends, if one word or act of an ordinance is changed, is it not then wrong? In my murmuring...I mean questioning, it seems to me that it's just like messing up the words of the sacrament or not getting someone completely under the water in baptism.

By the way, I got a real good chuckle reading this page about Pay Le Ale.
http://home.teleport.com/~packham/pale-ale.htm
EFY 

   


Posted: 25 May 2007 02:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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Mormons are often critical of The Catholic Church for having changed baptism.  The original christians practiced baptism my immersion, but found sprinkling more convienent.  How is changing the temple ceremonies for convienence any different?
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Posted: 25 May 2007 04:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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judge naut:Does anyone know exactly when in 1990 the changes took place? Was it January 1st? Later that year? My first time through was 1990 but it freaked me out so much I can't remember exactly how the whole thing went. I can't remember whether I did the throat slashing, disembowlment thing, or if someone just told me about it later, because I did not go back for years after that, and then only once or maybe twice.

I first went 1 March 1990 and learned all the self-disemboweling stuff.  The rites were changed the following month (hypatia...good research).  I had debated going for years and finally felt compelled by the still, shouting voice to GO RIGHT NOW!!!!
At the time I thought it was a sign that I needed to know both ways and be blessed with seeing revelation in action.  I now know it was my innate awareness helping me get info consciously that would help as I became aware of much other malarkey.
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Posted: 25 May 2007 04:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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dleed
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hypatia:There have been several references on the site of the changes in the TEC during the years. It is apparent that veteran ex-mos have had a slightly different experience than some of you younger thesbians-of-the-Garden variety. I came across this site that highlights the changes. As I never had the opportunity to stroll through this particular Eden myself, I cannot speak for its accuracy. Just thought it would be interesting to post.
http://www.lds-mormon.com/compare.shtml
Some of the key changes were:
1. Protestant minister paid by Lucifer to preach false doctrine was eliminated.
2. All penalties (and gestures like throat slashing, chest slashing and bowel slashing) were eliminated.
3. Women's promise to be obedient to husbands was modified.
4. The intimate position at the veil (foot to foot, knee to knee, breast to breast, hand on shoulder and mouth to ear) was eliminated.
5. The strange words "Pay Lay Ale" (meaning "Oh God hear the words of my mouth") were eliminated. 




Having initially gone through under the pre- stuff, I cringe now at the mental hoops I put myself through to justify not running screaming from the place that first time.  It is so nice to realize I'm not insane.  :o)
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Posted: 25 May 2007 05:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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EFY:[You can add to the list of changes the Washing and Annointings.  No longer is the "shield" slit on the sides so that the ordinance worker can touch your body.  Also, garments are worn into the cubicles. Prior to the change in 2005, you were naked going into the cubicle to receive your washing and annointing, and the temple worker would touch your naked body in certain places as he pronounced the blessings of the ordinance.  According to my mother, patrons are now simply given the blessings of the ordinance by simply laying on of hands and the blessing pronounced by authority of the priesthood.  Women temple workers bless women, men temple workers lay hands on men.  But at no time is any part of the body touched anylonger. 



Woah!  Hang on here a second.  Do you mean to tell me that women had to enter the cubicle naked and a man did the touching???  Seriously?  What happened to modesty?  What happened to sex is only okay in one limited arena, meaning husband and wife in their bedroom?  When did the W&O change to shifts?  That seems very inappropriate to me.  I went through in 1996 and we women had the shifts open at the sides and it was old grandmas who did the touching, which was uncomfortable enough as it was.  I would have been completely mortified with the method described by EFY.  I would have back out.  I'd of gone straight back to the dressing room, gotten dressed, left and stood by the car till everyone came out.
Somebody please answer this post and tell me I got it wrong.  It's not that I don't believe you, EFY, I've just NEVER heard this before.
Seriously?  
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It says nothing to me about my life
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Posted: 25 May 2007 06:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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rosetta stone:Somebody please answer this post and tell me I got it wrong.  It's not that I don't believe you, EFY, I've just NEVER heard this before.
Seriously? 

I don't know when women started officiating for women, but it is my understanding that originally there were holes in long johns to expose the genitals and breasts to accommodate annointing which was always done by men regardless of the sex of the recipient.
In 1990 it was naked under shields with no sewing on the side and being touched...that's when I went to my happy place in my mind to keep from screaming and leaving for surely I was the insane sinner to think anything was whacked about this.
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Posted: 25 May 2007 06:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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Rosetta, it's always been women W&A for women. When I was in the MTC (1978) it was a big joke to freak people out by telling them that men did it for the women too.
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Posted: 25 May 2007 06:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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dleed:
rosetta stone:Somebody please answer this post and tell me I got it wrong.  It's not that I don't believe you, EFY, I've just NEVER heard this before.
Seriously? 

I don't know when women started officiating for women, but it is my understanding that originally there were holes in long johns to expose the genitals and breasts to accommodate annointing which was always done by men regardless of the sex of the recipient.
In 1990 it was naked under shields with no sewing on the side and being touched...that's when I went to my happy place in my mind to keep from screaming and leaving for surely I was the insane sinner to think anything was whacked about this.

Please believe me I'm no sexual prude, ... on second thought, maybe that's why I'm freaking out a little because I'm not a prude.  How many guys, ... I don't know of any guys who could be a temple worker and not get turned on by a naked woman entering the cubicle, or even a woman in long johns with strategic holes, and then touching through the holes and keep their thoughts morally clean???  As far as I know there are no requirements to be a eunuch before becoming a temple worker, so how did this work?
This is so contrary to the sexually repressed culture I grew up in.  I don't mean to beat a dead horse here, but...  I'm just a little astounded.
Is there anyone on this board old enough to remember the time when it went this way?
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Because the music that they constantly play
It says nothing to me about my life
—Morrissey


   


Posted: 25 May 2007 06:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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rosetta stone
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bow_your_head&say_no:Rosetta, it's always been women W&A for women. When I was in the MTC (1978) it was a big joke to freak people out by telling them that men did it for the women too.

Yeaaah, that joke would have worked on me.  It's working now, and I'm not even facing the issue and I'm a little freaked out.
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Because the music that they constantly play
It says nothing to me about my life
—Morrissey


   


Posted: 25 May 2007 06:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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Women have always done the washing and annointing for other women. The following quote is from an 1846 apostate decribing the washing and annointing in the Nauvoo Temple. 



We were first received past the Guard into a private room on the north side of the Temple — this was the room of preparation of purifcation. — We were divested of all our apparel, and in a state of perfect nudity were washed from head to foot with sweet oil scented (I think) with lavender. We were then clothed in white robes. All this was done by sisters in the church — none others were present — it is false to say that men and women are admitted together in an indecent manner.



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Posted: 25 May 2007 06:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
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Tthom:Women have always done the washing and annointing for other women. The following quote is from an 1846 apostate decribing the washing and annointing in the Nauvoo Temple. 



We were first received past the Guard into a private room on the north side of the Temple — this was the room of preparation of purifcation. — We were divested of all our apparel, and in a state of perfect nudity were washed from head to foot with sweet oil scented (I think) with lavender. We were then clothed in white robes. All this was done by sisters in the church — none others were present — it is false to say that men and women are admitted together in an indecent manner.






Ahh, thank you, Darth Tthom, I so appreciate that quote.  I can let it go now.
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It says nothing to me about my life
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Posted: 25 May 2007 07:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
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dleed:I don't know when women started officiating for women, but it is my understanding that originally there were holes in long johns to expose the genitals and breasts to accommodate annointing which was always done by men regardless of the sex of the recipient.



I believe those would actually be the ultra-sexy honeymoon garments that allow you to consummate to marriage while simultaneously warding off both evil and danger.
I am considering marketing a line of edible garments for those more liberal minded temple Mormons, however I need a solution size issue. It can potentially take take hours to eat the thing, and you run the risk of losing "the moment."
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Posted: 25 May 2007 07:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
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Crime Dog:I am considering marketing a line of edible garments for those more liberal minded temple Mormons, however I need a solution size issue. It can potentially take take hours to eat the thing, and you run the risk of losing "the moment."

hmmm...licorice whips to hold edible marks in place?
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Posted: 25 May 2007 07:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]   

   
 
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Crime Dog:
dleed:I don't know when women started officiating for women, but it is my understanding that originally there were holes in long johns to expose the genitals and breasts to accommodate annointing which was always done by men regardless of the sex of the recipient.



I believe those would actually be the ultra-sexy honeymoon garments that allow you to consummate to marriage while simultaneously warding off both evil and danger.
I am considering marketing a line of edible garments for those more liberal minded temple Mormons, however I need a solution size issue. It can potentially take take hours to eat the thing, and you run the risk of losing "the moment."

   Yeah, maybe employ some strategic velcro parts and pieces, and have only limited sections of it be edible. ??  Didn't someone say the barn doors used to have snaps on the one-piecers?    I can't imagine sitting on snaps all day.  What a bummer.  
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It says nothing to me about my life
—Morrissey


   


Posted: 25 May 2007 07:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]   

   
 
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rosetta stone:Didn't someone say the barn doors used to have snaps on the one-piecers?    I can't imagine sitting on snaps all day.  What a bummer. 
roflcopter...luv it... 
rosetta you've helped make my day today...  :o)
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Posted: 25 May 2007 07:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]   

   
 
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dleed:
rosetta stone:Didn't someone say the barn doors used to have snaps on the one-piecers?    I can't imagine sitting on snaps all day.  What a bummer. 
roflcopter...luv it... 
rosetta you've helped make my day today...  :o)

Yeah, sometimes I crack myself up.   And sometimes only myself! 
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Because the music that they constantly play
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Mormon kids at Protestant Bible School  
Posted: 04 June 2007 09:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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KimberlyAnn
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Did anyone else's mom drop them off at other churches' Bible Schools in the summer?  My mom used to drop me off at the Baptist church in town so she could get a break.  I loved it.  Usually, it lasted a week and there were lots of games and good snacks - better snacks than we ever had at the Mormon church.

The Methodist church my family now attends has a Summer Day Camp this week.  I'm helping every day.  Today, I took fifty-five fourth graders to sort donated clothes at the Salvation Army and then to play miniature golf.  It was fun, but I'm exhausted.  I'll be doing things like that from 8:30 am to 3:30 pm every day this week.  Whew!  I got to ride on a school bus with them which was actually fun, even though I get motion sickness on busses for some reason.

This morning, a mom came into the church and dropped off a whole passel of kids.  I thought they might be Mormons.  After she filled out the paperwork for registration I peeked and sure enough, they were Latter-day Saints.  Her kids were adorable.  She dropped off her fourth grade little boy named Wade.  He was in my group and I was immediately drawn to him.  He was shy and it was no wonder.  He'd never been inside our church before and suddenly he was being dropped off with a bunch of strangers for the entire day.  I'm sure his mom needed the break.

Wade had a cleft palate, which endeared him to me.  I was born with a cleft palate which thankfully didn't affect my face, but I had several surgeries to correct the roof of my mouth, so I have a tender spot for kids with the same problem.  The cleft palate probably contributed to Wade's shyness.

I stayed with him most of the day and noticed how out of place he was.  He didn't know any of the songs we sang on the bus.  We were singing Christian standards and I was surprised he didn't know the words to "Peace Like a River" or "Jesus Loves the Little Children."  I'm pretty sure I knew those by the fourth grade, even though we didn't sing them at church. 

Wade didn't want the cross refrigerator magnets that were handed out at the end of the day.  I understood.  I didn't want them either.  He did have fun playing mini golf, even though I beat him. :P   And he was helpful at the Salvation Army.  Still, I couldn't help but feel sorry for him because he was so different from the other kids and I know he felt like an outsider.  I sometimes felt that way at Bible School, too, when I was a kid.  I wonder if the leaders felt sorry for me when I was an out of place little Mormon girl?

I'm looking forward to seeing him again tomorrow, but I'm going to pay him a little less attention so he'll play more with the other boys.  I wonder what his mom will think when she finds out that on the bus we discussed why the Old Testament may not be literal...

KA
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Posted: 04 June 2007 11:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
jahedgpeth
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I recall visiting a Vacation Bible School with the neighbor kids. I was about 10 years old and I remember feeling a sense of belief-superiority towards traditional Christians. Going into it, I had the mentality that I was going to observe how a less advanced species tries to stumble their way around in theological  darkness. If they only had the truth, they wouldn't need to waste their time with things like paid clergy, no prophet, an unreliable Bible etc. I was an arrogant little kid. I suppose this arrogance comes from being in the "one true church" or maybe it was/is a personality disorder.
I remember taking my parent's Mormon issued scriptures with me. The teacher of the class asked to see my "Bible". As he thumbed through it, I thought "Yeah, that's right. Look at how well we understand the Bible with all of our JST and inspired interpretations and foot-notes." I was sure the guy was impressed. In hindsight, he probably was thinking, "Oh dear Lord! This kid is in a cult." 
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Posted: 05 June 2007 12:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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beenthere
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jahedgpeth:
I remember taking my parent's Mormon issued scriptures with me. The teacher of the class asked to see my "Bible". As he thumbed through it, I thought "Yeah, that's right. Look at how well we understand the Bible with all of our JST and inspired interpretations and foot-notes." I was sure the guy was impressed. In hindsight, he probably was thinking, "Oh dear Lord! This kid is in a cult."

I took those picture bibles things that the church had in the 80s to prove my points.  I remember telling a christian neighbor that the bible specifically said that we lived up in heaven before we were born cause look, the pictures went before adam and eve in my new testament LDS picture thing.....it wasn't until I was a teenager going back that I noticed all the references in that picture were from the PoGP and not the bible.  I felt like an idiot.
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Posted: 05 June 2007 12:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
wings
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No way! It would have been unheard of in the 50's and 60's in Utah....even if there were such things. Kids from other religions came to our stuff.
You are one brave woman KA!
Hugs,
wings
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Posted: 05 June 2007 01:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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wings:
No way! It would have been unheard of in the 50's and 60's in Utah....even if there were such things. Kids from other religions came to our stuff.
You are one brave woman KA!
Hugs,
wings




WINGS!!!  Mmmmwwaa!  How nice to see you here!

I was wondering if the Mormons at Vacation Bible School was a mission field phenomenon.  Seems like it might be.

I'm not brave, Wings.  Maybe crazy...

KA

PS - There's no way you were alive in the fifties!


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Posted: 05 June 2007 02:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Well, I just invited my TBM neighbor's kids to come to Summer Day Camp with us tomorrow but she declined the offer.  She's let them go before.  I think she's upset because I had an exmormon party at my house a week ago.

I'm pretty sure she overheard us talking last week because she was working outside and then suddenly made all her kids go inside and shut the blinds.  Tom noticed it.  I've tried to be extra sweet this past week, but I'm not sure it's doing any good.

Oh, well.  She'll come around.  She'll need a babysitter soon enough. :)

KA
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Posted: 05 June 2007 02:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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KA,
Loved your post. My kids attended a Methodist Preschool when we lived in Georgia. There were some great people at the church, to bad I was a TBM back then, or I would have probably attended that church. My two older boys attended vacation bible school at the Methodist church for several years. It was a great experience for them and me. Keep up the good work and enjoy yourself this week.
LizaJane 

   


Posted: 05 June 2007 05:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
MaryG
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I am scared to death that anyone is dropping off a passel of kids anywhere and not staying with them. What  a set up for being abused! I don't care if they are nice baptists, or LDS, or whatever.  I hope they are older kids, but I know the VBS things are usually k-5.  AUGH!
MaryG 

   


Posted: 05 June 2007 05:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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Crissy
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I sure wish there was something like that in my neck of the woods. When we lived in Iowa, my boys went to "Boy's Club" and had a ball..not to mention, it gave me a much needed break from their attitudes...besides, my hubby was gone all the time back then and the boys really needed some "boy" activities that kept them out of trouble...I sure miss it!
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Posted: 05 June 2007 12:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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Dogzilla Joy
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Here's one reason I was grateful that my mom was too busy doing drugs to be bothered providing any manner of enrichment for us. I had some friends who went to Vacation Bible School and I thought I would have hated it. I wasn't a terribly religious kid, so I would have been miserable. I thought religion was boring and pointless.

Isn't that funny? I should have stuck with my belief system from age 7 because, eventually, I came right back around to it, didn't I? 
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Posted: 05 June 2007 04:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
Punky's Dilemma
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MaryG:I am scared to death that anyone is dropping off a passel of kids anywhere and not staying with them. What  a set up for being abused! I don't care if they are nice baptists, or LDS, or whatever.  I hope they are older kids, but I know the VBS things are usually k-5.  AUGH!
MaryG

I think it's not a matter of "as long as the people are *nice*." It's more of a matter of scoping out the program and it's policies to see what they do to make sure children are kept safe while in the program's care.

For example, in my church's VBS there are a lot of policies in place to prevent abuse. First, no adult is alone with a child. There are always two or more present. The rooms all have big windows and can easily been seen from the outside. There is a standard kid to adult ratio (I think it's 10 to 1 or less). All people working with children have received background checks and passed them. All people working with children have to undergo training about abuse and abuse-related issues, and the church's policies mandate them to report any abuse they become aware of, as well as require them to avoid behaviors that put children at risk, put the individual volunteers at risk, or put the church at risk.

The training provided and the policies that the church adheres to are the same ones as in my profession, and as practiced in my husband's school. The background check is exactly the same. And even though Dh and I have had a background check in the last year for our jobs, we still had one through the church in order to do even the simplest things, like volunteer for youth movie night, or help with VBS registration (I'll be sitting at a desk in two weeks helping parents with registration).

Parents are encouraged to inquire about our policies and child protection measures prior to leaving them with us. Anywhere I leave my children, including the in-home baby sitter I leave them with four days a week, has had to undergo the same clearance and training I just described.

It's not a matter of leaving children with "nice" people, but rather qualified and clearanced people.


   


Posted: 05 June 2007 09:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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Punky&#;s Dilemma:
MaryG:I am scared to death that anyone is dropping off a passel of kids anywhere and not staying with them. What  a set up for being abused! I don't care if they are nice baptists, or LDS, or whatever.  I hope they are older kids, but I know the VBS things are usually k-5.  AUGH!
MaryG

I think it's not a matter of "as long as the people are *nice*." It's more of a matter of scoping out the program and it's policies to see what they do to make sure children are kept safe while in the program's care.

For example, in my church's VBS there are a lot of policies in place to prevent abuse. First, no adult is alone with a child. There are always two or more present. The rooms all have big windows and can easily been seen from the outside. There is a standard kid to adult ratio (I think it's 10 to 1 or less). All people working with children have received background checks and passed them. All people working with children have to undergo training about abuse and abuse-related issues, and the church's policies mandate them to report any abuse they become aware of, as well as require them to avoid behaviors that put children at risk, put the individual volunteers at risk, or put the church at risk.

The training provided and the policies that the church adheres to are the same ones as in my profession, and as practiced in my husband's school. The background check is exactly the same. And even though Dh and I have had a background check in the last year for our jobs, we still had one through the church in order to do even the simplest things, like volunteer for youth movie night, or help with VBS registration (I'll be sitting at a desk in two weeks helping parents with registration).

Parents are encouraged to inquire about our policies and child protection measures prior to leaving them with us. Anywhere I leave my children, including the in-home baby sitter I leave them with four days a week, has had to undergo the same clearance and training I just described.

It's not a matter of leaving children with "nice" people, but rather qualified and clearanced people.




I agree with Punky.  All those precautions are in place at our church, too.  Children are certainly safer there than they are most anywhere else. 

I wonder if the Mormon church has ever gotten around to requiring background checks for their "clergy" and primary workers?  I bet they haven't.  It's a disaster waiting to happen.  Disaster probably already HAS happened.

KA
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Posted: 05 June 2007 09:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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KimberlyAnn:
 
I wonder if the Mormon church has ever gotten around to requiring background checks for their "clergy" and primary workers?  I bet they haven't.  It's a disaster waiting to happen.  Disaster probably already HAS happened.





 
Everyone who watches the local news in Utah knows the disaster IS happening.  They are arresting a local Mormon leader for pediophilia at least once a month, and that is just the tip of the iceburg.

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Posted: 05 June 2007 11:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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pnut
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i'm glad to see this issue being discussed.  I always worry about who I am allowing to have access to my kids.  Our church also has a criminal background check of all volunteers, in all positions, no matter if they work with kids or not.  You'd think that some volunteer positions that do not deal with kids should not require this, but when people start volunteering in a church in one position and earns trust, they can always "fall through the cracks" if they decide to volunteer in a different area in which there are kids.  The church feels that they must know if any volunteer has a criminal background.   Our school also does the same thing for all parent volunteers as well as teachers.  very smart in my thinking.
Our church also has a vacation bible school and I always send our son with a buddy, who I request they stay together at all times.  They always honor such a request and that they never leave each other's sides.  We always have a serious talk before all these events about what behaviors are not "appropriate" and how if he ever feels uncomfortable about anyone, student or teacher, he must go to a leader and tell this and have them call me. 
I had to have this talk with my son since I sent him to preschool.  It made me feel a little sad, as we never knew about such terrible things until probably late elementary school.  Now, however, in order to protect your children, you must teach them what is inappropriate behavior as sensitively as possible and very early. 

   


Posted: 06 June 2007 12:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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pnut
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dogzilla:
Here's one reason I was grateful that my mom was too busy doing drugs to be bothered providing any manner of enrichment for us.



I know this is off the topic and perhaps too personal, but what is your mother like now?  I have other friends who had mothers who were too busy doing drugs to nurture their kids and these moms are either all dead or are living a pretty terrible exsistence in their older years.  Most of them look 20 years older than their age.  some of them have had several more marriages since their kids were little.  Most of my friends who lived in these situations either had to raise themselves or had to raise themselves and younger siblings.   One friend in particular did the foster home circuit, being separated from her siblings.  We're still friends and she never will refer to either one of her parents.  Even though they're both alive, to her they died a long time ago... like the day she was put in foster care.
I have read your exit story and many of your posts related to your dad, but wasn't aware you also had a mom busy doing drugs.   I didn't even have to live through it, but I've seen that scene from the outside. All I can say is that I'm sorry you were faced with that and I surely admire you for making yourself into a big success.  
As for your mother.... 

   


Posted: 06 June 2007 03:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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KimberlyAnn
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Tthom:
KimberlyAnn:

I wonder if the Mormon church has ever gotten around to requiring background checks for their "clergy" and primary workers?  I bet they haven't.  It's a disaster waiting to happen.  Disaster probably already HAS happened.






Everyone who watches the local news in Utah knows the disaster IS happening.  They are arresting a local Mormon leader for pediophilia at least once a month, and that is just the tip of the iceburg.






Wow. I don't live in a heavily Mormon area and I've only heard of a few cases of pedophilia either through the rumor mill or read about them on ex-Mormon bulletin boards. Arrests monthly? That's sickening. I can't believe the LDS church isn't doing something about that by requiring background checks.

Are all the classroom doors still solid and the windows up high? In my old ward building, no one could see in the classrooms at all if the doors were shut. Some drastic measures need to be taken if child molestation (or worse) is that rampant in Utah. Disgusting.

KA

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Posted: 06 June 2007 04:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
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And run the risk of my children becoming Christian??? No.  But whatever, they live in Oklahoma and the Baptists are probably putting Christian powder in the school lunch anyway.  Yes, I am kidding about the last sentence, I hope.
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Posted: 06 June 2007 04:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
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KimberlyAnn:[
Are all the classroom doors still solid and the windows up high? In my old ward building, no one could see in the classrooms at all if the doors were shut. Some drastic measures need to be taken if child molestation (or worse) is that rampant in Utah. Disgusting.



KA






KA: I think they have installed glass windows in all the LDS buildings and have two teachers assigned per class.  Several months ago I attended an Eagle Court of Honor at the building I once attended church.  All the classroom doors had been fitted with glass windows.
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Posted: 06 June 2007 04:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
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It would good if the church ran background checks on priesthood and youth leadership.  A past bishop in the stake and ward I attended, had been convicted of crimes invovling male prostitution prior to being called as a bishop.  No one knew.  Later, he was accused of molesting a teenage boy.  The accusation was never proven, but the ex-bishop was excommunicated because during the LDS investigation, this idiot was arrested for soliciting a male prostitute at a new by university!
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Posted: 06 June 2007 05:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]   

   
 
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Skeptical:And run the risk of my children becoming Christian??? No.  But whatever, they live in Oklahoma and the Baptists are probably putting Christian powder in the school lunch anyway.  Yes, I am kidding about the last sentence, I hope.

Where in Oklahoma?  We lived in Oklahoma City for 3 1/2 years after we were married.  It's where I first put in my request to leave the church...where it was ignored, even though the bishop was so nice and told me all I had to do was scribble it on a piece of paper, sign it with my birthdate, which I did.  And here I thought the missionaries were so nice to bring the bish when I told them that's what I wanted.  I got the whole, "You know the consequences of your decision, don't you?" and was shaking like a leaf, but hey, I did and thought things would be fine.....but apperantly he never did anything with it and I had to do the whole process over again....Oops, that was kinda random.  Anyway, where in OK?
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Posted: 06 June 2007 06:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]   

   
 
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Skeptical:
KimberlyAnn:[
Are all the classroom doors still solid and the windows up high? In my old ward building, no one could see in the classrooms at all if the doors were shut. Some drastic measures need to be taken if child molestation (or worse) is that rampant in Utah. Disgusting.



KA







KA: I think they have installed glass windows in all the LDS buildings and have two teachers assigned per class.  Several months ago I attended an Eagle Court of Honor at the building I once attended church.  All the classroom doors had been fitted with glass windows.

That's good news, Skep.  I'm so glad to hear it.

Thanks for the info.

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Posted: 06 June 2007 06:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]   

   
 
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beenthere:
Skeptical:And run the risk of my children becoming Christian??? No.  But whatever, they live in Oklahoma and the Baptists are probably putting Christian powder in the school lunch anyway.  Yes, I am kidding about the last sentence, I hope.

Where in Oklahoma?  We lived in Oklahoma City for 3 1/2 years after we were married.  It's where I first put in my request to leave the church...where it was ignored, even though the bishop was so nice and told me all I had to do was scribble it on a piece of paper, sign it with my birthdate, which I did.  And here I thought the missionaries were so nice to bring the bish when I told them that's what I wanted.  I got the whole, "You know the consequences of your decision, don't you?" and was shaking like a leaf, but hey, I did and thought things would be fine.....but apperantly he never did anything with it and I had to do the whole process over again....Oops, that was kinda random.  Anyway, where in OK?

Beenthere, I won't answer for Skep, but I live near Tulsa.  It's so much prettier than OKC.  Sorry you Oklahoma City folks, but it's true.  :P

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Posted: 06 June 2007 12:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]   

   
 
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KimberlyAnn:
beenthere:
Skeptical:And run the risk of my children becoming Christian??? No.  But whatever, they live in Oklahoma and the Baptists are probably putting Christian powder in the school lunch anyway.  Yes, I am kidding about the last sentence, I hope.

Where in Oklahoma?  We lived in Oklahoma City for 3 1/2 years after we were married.  It's where I first put in my request to leave the church...where it was ignored, even though the bishop was so nice and told me all I had to do was scribble it on a piece of paper, sign it with my birthdate, which I did.  And here I thought the missionaries were so nice to bring the bish when I told them that's what I wanted.  I got the whole, "You know the consequences of your decision, don't you?" and was shaking like a leaf, but hey, I did and thought things would be fine.....but apperantly he never did anything with it and I had to do the whole process over again....Oops, that was kinda random.  Anyway, where in OK?



Beenthere, I won't answer for Skep, but I live near Tulsa.  It's so much prettier than OKC.  Sorry you Oklahoma City folks, but it's true.  :P



KA



Still laughing.  As inferred by KA, I live in Oklahoma City, which is just prettier than Tulsa, but here, reading and writing aren't seen as luxuries.  Also, Oklahoma City is the cultural center of the state, a title Tulsa used to own but has since lost due to its inability to pay for improvements.
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Posted: 06 June 2007 12:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]   

   
 
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Skeptical:
KimberlyAnn:
beenthere:
Skeptical:And run the risk of my children becoming Christian??? No.  But whatever, they live in Oklahoma and the Baptists are probably putting Christian powder in the school lunch anyway.  Yes, I am kidding about the last sentence, I hope.

Where in Oklahoma?  We lived in Oklahoma City for 3 1/2 years after we were married.  It's where I first put in my request to leave the church...where it was ignored, even though the bishop was so nice and told me all I had to do was scribble it on a piece of paper, sign it with my birthdate, which I did.  And here I thought the missionaries were so nice to bring the bish when I told them that's what I wanted.  I got the whole, "You know the consequences of your decision, don't you?" and was shaking like a leaf, but hey, I did and thought things would be fine.....but apperantly he never did anything with it and I had to do the whole process over again....Oops, that was kinda random.  Anyway, where in OK?



Beenthere, I won't answer for Skep, but I live near Tulsa.  It's so much prettier than OKC.  Sorry you Oklahoma City folks, but it's true.  :P



KA




Still laughing.  As inferred by KA, I live in Oklahoma City, which is just prettier than Tulsa, but here, reading and writing aren't seen as luxuries.  Also, Oklahoma City is the cultural center of the state, a title Tulsa used to own but has since lost due to its inability to pay for improvements.

Reading and writing LUXURIES? HaHa, Skep.  You're right about OKC's improvements, though.  I actually don't mind going to OKC anymore.  But the land is still prettier here in the Tulsa area.  There's nothing you OKC folks can do about your ugly flat terrain. :P

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Posted: 06 June 2007 12:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]   

   
 
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KimberlyAnn:
Skeptical:
KimberlyAnn:
beenthere:
Skeptical:And run the risk of my children becoming Christian??? No.  But whatever, they live in Oklahoma and the Baptists are probably putting Christian powder in the school lunch anyway.  Yes, I am kidding about the last sentence, I hope.

Where in Oklahoma?  We lived in Oklahoma City for 3 1/2 years after we were married.  It's where I first put in my request to leave the church...where it was ignored, even though the bishop was so nice and told me all I had to do was scribble it on a piece of paper, sign it with my birthdate, which I did.  And here I thought the missionaries were so nice to bring the bish when I told them that's what I wanted.  I got the whole, "You know the consequences of your decision, don't you?" and was shaking like a leaf, but hey, I did and thought things would be fine.....but apperantly he never did anything with it and I had to do the whole process over again....Oops, that was kinda random.  Anyway, where in OK?



Beenthere, I won't answer for Skep, but I live near Tulsa.  It's so much prettier than OKC.  Sorry you Oklahoma City folks, but it's true.  :P



KA




Still laughing.  As inferred by KA, I live in Oklahoma City, which is just prettier than Tulsa, but here, reading and writing aren't seen as luxuries.  Also, Oklahoma City is the cultural center of the state, a title Tulsa used to own but has since lost due to its inability to pay for improvements.



Reading and writing LUXURIES? HaHa, Skep.  You're right about OKC's improvements, though.  I actually don't mind going to OKC anymore.  But the land is still prettier here in the Tulsa area.  There's nothing you OKC folks can do about your ugly flat terrain. :P



KA



HA!  I'm Utah born and raised and the view here is much better then anything in OK. 
I've only been to Tulsa once, driving through to Arkansas.  I think I was half asleep when I was there, but it is much more hilly and green the OKC.  DH's sister went to a baptist college in Tulsa.
We lived in quite a few different areas in OKC.  DH is considering moving back (NO!!!).....it's a long story.  He grew up off of 23rd and Meridian.....I don't know if you've ever seen the Windsor Hills Baptist Church but driving by that billboard to his parents house always made me so mad I would almost see red.  Drove me nuts.....Not that that has anything to do with this thread, but brought it up anyway.....
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Posted: 06 June 2007 01:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]   

   
 
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Dogzilla Joy
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pnut:
I know this is off the topic and perhaps too personal, but what is your mother like now?  I have other friends who had mothers who were too busy doing drugs to nurture their kids and these moms are either all dead or are living a pretty terrible exsistence in their older years.  Most of them look 20 years older than their age.  some of them have had several more marriages since their kids were little.  Most of my friends who lived in these situations either had to raise themselves or had to raise themselves and younger siblings.   One friend in particular did the foster home circuit, being separated from her siblings.  We're still friends and she never will refer to either one of her parents.  Even though they're both alive, to her they died a long time ago... like the day she was put in foster care.
I have read your exit story and many of your posts related to your dad, but wasn't aware you also had a mom busy doing drugs.   I didn't even have to live through it, but I've seen that scene from the outside. All I can say is that I'm sorry you were faced with that and I surely admire you for making yourself into a big success.  
As for your mother....

Way off topic... I'll PM you so as not to derail the discussion...
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Posted: 06 June 2007 02:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]   

   
 
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Everyone who watches the local news in Utah knows the disaster IS happening.  They are arresting a local Mormon leader for pediophilia at least once a month, and that is just the tip of the iceburg.




I would love to see Dateline (NBC) set up a sting in SLC.  I wonder if the cops would cooperate like they do in other cities.  If they did it would open the eyes of a lot of people.
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Posted: 06 June 2007 02:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]   

   
 
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Tthom:
KimberlyAnn:
 
I wonder if the Mormon church has ever gotten around to requiring background checks for their "clergy" and primary workers?  I bet they haven't.  It's a disaster waiting to happen.  Disaster probably already HAS happened.





 
Everyone who watches the local news in Utah knows the disaster IS happening.  They are arresting a local Mormon leader for pediophilia at least once a month, and that is just the tip of the iceburg.




And not just in Utah.  We're seeing it out in my neck of the woods, too.
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Mormon kids at Protestant Bible School  
Posted: 04 June 2007 09:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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KimberlyAnn
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Did anyone else's mom drop them off at other churches' Bible Schools in the summer?  My mom used to drop me off at the Baptist church in town so she could get a break.  I loved it.  Usually, it lasted a week and there were lots of games and good snacks - better snacks than we ever had at the Mormon church.

The Methodist church my family now attends has a Summer Day Camp this week.  I'm helping every day.  Today, I took fifty-five fourth graders to sort donated clothes at the Salvation Army and then to play miniature golf.  It was fun, but I'm exhausted.  I'll be doing things like that from 8:30 am to 3:30 pm every day this week.  Whew!  I got to ride on a school bus with them which was actually fun, even though I get motion sickness on busses for some reason.

This morning, a mom came into the church and dropped off a whole passel of kids.  I thought they might be Mormons.  After she filled out the paperwork for registration I peeked and sure enough, they were Latter-day Saints.  Her kids were adorable.  She dropped off her fourth grade little boy named Wade.  He was in my group and I was immediately drawn to him.  He was shy and it was no wonder.  He'd never been inside our church before and suddenly he was being dropped off with a bunch of strangers for the entire day.  I'm sure his mom needed the break.

Wade had a cleft palate, which endeared him to me.  I was born with a cleft palate which thankfully didn't affect my face, but I had several surgeries to correct the roof of my mouth, so I have a tender spot for kids with the same problem.  The cleft palate probably contributed to Wade's shyness.

I stayed with him most of the day and noticed how out of place he was.  He didn't know any of the songs we sang on the bus.  We were singing Christian standards and I was surprised he didn't know the words to "Peace Like a River" or "Jesus Loves the Little Children."  I'm pretty sure I knew those by the fourth grade, even though we didn't sing them at church. 

Wade didn't want the cross refrigerator magnets that were handed out at the end of the day.  I understood.  I didn't want them either.  He did have fun playing mini golf, even though I beat him. :P   And he was helpful at the Salvation Army.  Still, I couldn't help but feel sorry for him because he was so different from the other kids and I know he felt like an outsider.  I sometimes felt that way at Bible School, too, when I was a kid.  I wonder if the leaders felt sorry for me when I was an out of place little Mormon girl?

I'm looking forward to seeing him again tomorrow, but I'm going to pay him a little less attention so he'll play more with the other boys.  I wonder what his mom will think when she finds out that on the bus we discussed why the Old Testament may not be literal...

KA
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Posted: 04 June 2007 11:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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I recall visiting a Vacation Bible School with the neighbor kids. I was about 10 years old and I remember feeling a sense of belief-superiority towards traditional Christians. Going into it, I had the mentality that I was going to observe how a less advanced species tries to stumble their way around in theological  darkness. If they only had the truth, they wouldn't need to waste their time with things like paid clergy, no prophet, an unreliable Bible etc. I was an arrogant little kid. I suppose this arrogance comes from being in the "one true church" or maybe it was/is a personality disorder.
I remember taking my parent's Mormon issued scriptures with me. The teacher of the class asked to see my "Bible". As he thumbed through it, I thought "Yeah, that's right. Look at how well we understand the Bible with all of our JST and inspired interpretations and foot-notes." I was sure the guy was impressed. In hindsight, he probably was thinking, "Oh dear Lord! This kid is in a cult." 
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Posted: 05 June 2007 12:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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jahedgpeth:
I remember taking my parent's Mormon issued scriptures with me. The teacher of the class asked to see my "Bible". As he thumbed through it, I thought "Yeah, that's right. Look at how well we understand the Bible with all of our JST and inspired interpretations and foot-notes." I was sure the guy was impressed. In hindsight, he probably was thinking, "Oh dear Lord! This kid is in a cult."

I took those picture bibles things that the church had in the 80s to prove my points.  I remember telling a christian neighbor that the bible specifically said that we lived up in heaven before we were born cause look, the pictures went before adam and eve in my new testament LDS picture thing.....it wasn't until I was a teenager going back that I noticed all the references in that picture were from the PoGP and not the bible.  I felt like an idiot.
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Posted: 05 June 2007 12:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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No way! It would have been unheard of in the 50's and 60's in Utah....even if there were such things. Kids from other religions came to our stuff.
You are one brave woman KA!
Hugs,
wings
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Posted: 05 June 2007 01:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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wings:
No way! It would have been unheard of in the 50's and 60's in Utah....even if there were such things. Kids from other religions came to our stuff.
You are one brave woman KA!
Hugs,
wings




WINGS!!!  Mmmmwwaa!  How nice to see you here!

I was wondering if the Mormons at Vacation Bible School was a mission field phenomenon.  Seems like it might be.

I'm not brave, Wings.  Maybe crazy...

KA

PS - There's no way you were alive in the fifties!


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Posted: 05 June 2007 02:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Well, I just invited my TBM neighbor's kids to come to Summer Day Camp with us tomorrow but she declined the offer.  She's let them go before.  I think she's upset because I had an exmormon party at my house a week ago.

I'm pretty sure she overheard us talking last week because she was working outside and then suddenly made all her kids go inside and shut the blinds.  Tom noticed it.  I've tried to be extra sweet this past week, but I'm not sure it's doing any good.

Oh, well.  She'll come around.  She'll need a babysitter soon enough. :)

KA
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Posted: 05 June 2007 02:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
lizajane
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KA,
Loved your post. My kids attended a Methodist Preschool when we lived in Georgia. There were some great people at the church, to bad I was a TBM back then, or I would have probably attended that church. My two older boys attended vacation bible school at the Methodist church for several years. It was a great experience for them and me. Keep up the good work and enjoy yourself this week.
LizaJane 

   


Posted: 05 June 2007 05:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
MaryG
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I am scared to death that anyone is dropping off a passel of kids anywhere and not staying with them. What  a set up for being abused! I don't care if they are nice baptists, or LDS, or whatever.  I hope they are older kids, but I know the VBS things are usually k-5.  AUGH!
MaryG 

   


Posted: 05 June 2007 05:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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I sure wish there was something like that in my neck of the woods. When we lived in Iowa, my boys went to "Boy's Club" and had a ball..not to mention, it gave me a much needed break from their attitudes...besides, my hubby was gone all the time back then and the boys really needed some "boy" activities that kept them out of trouble...I sure miss it!
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Posted: 05 June 2007 12:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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Here's one reason I was grateful that my mom was too busy doing drugs to be bothered providing any manner of enrichment for us. I had some friends who went to Vacation Bible School and I thought I would have hated it. I wasn't a terribly religious kid, so I would have been miserable. I thought religion was boring and pointless.

Isn't that funny? I should have stuck with my belief system from age 7 because, eventually, I came right back around to it, didn't I? 
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Posted: 05 June 2007 04:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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MaryG:I am scared to death that anyone is dropping off a passel of kids anywhere and not staying with them. What  a set up for being abused! I don't care if they are nice baptists, or LDS, or whatever.  I hope they are older kids, but I know the VBS things are usually k-5.  AUGH!
MaryG

I think it's not a matter of "as long as the people are *nice*." It's more of a matter of scoping out the program and it's policies to see what they do to make sure children are kept safe while in the program's care.

For example, in my church's VBS there are a lot of policies in place to prevent abuse. First, no adult is alone with a child. There are always two or more present. The rooms all have big windows and can easily been seen from the outside. There is a standard kid to adult ratio (I think it's 10 to 1 or less). All people working with children have received background checks and passed them. All people working with children have to undergo training about abuse and abuse-related issues, and the church's policies mandate them to report any abuse they become aware of, as well as require them to avoid behaviors that put children at risk, put the individual volunteers at risk, or put the church at risk.

The training provided and the policies that the church adheres to are the same ones as in my profession, and as practiced in my husband's school. The background check is exactly the same. And even though Dh and I have had a background check in the last year for our jobs, we still had one through the church in order to do even the simplest things, like volunteer for youth movie night, or help with VBS registration (I'll be sitting at a desk in two weeks helping parents with registration).

Parents are encouraged to inquire about our policies and child protection measures prior to leaving them with us. Anywhere I leave my children, including the in-home baby sitter I leave them with four days a week, has had to undergo the same clearance and training I just described.

It's not a matter of leaving children with "nice" people, but rather qualified and clearanced people.


   


Posted: 05 June 2007 09:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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Punky&#;s Dilemma:
MaryG:I am scared to death that anyone is dropping off a passel of kids anywhere and not staying with them. What  a set up for being abused! I don't care if they are nice baptists, or LDS, or whatever.  I hope they are older kids, but I know the VBS things are usually k-5.  AUGH!
MaryG

I think it's not a matter of "as long as the people are *nice*." It's more of a matter of scoping out the program and it's policies to see what they do to make sure children are kept safe while in the program's care.

For example, in my church's VBS there are a lot of policies in place to prevent abuse. First, no adult is alone with a child. There are always two or more present. The rooms all have big windows and can easily been seen from the outside. There is a standard kid to adult ratio (I think it's 10 to 1 or less). All people working with children have received background checks and passed them. All people working with children have to undergo training about abuse and abuse-related issues, and the church's policies mandate them to report any abuse they become aware of, as well as require them to avoid behaviors that put children at risk, put the individual volunteers at risk, or put the church at risk.

The training provided and the policies that the church adheres to are the same ones as in my profession, and as practiced in my husband's school. The background check is exactly the same. And even though Dh and I have had a background check in the last year for our jobs, we still had one through the church in order to do even the simplest things, like volunteer for youth movie night, or help with VBS registration (I'll be sitting at a desk in two weeks helping parents with registration).

Parents are encouraged to inquire about our policies and child protection measures prior to leaving them with us. Anywhere I leave my children, including the in-home baby sitter I leave them with four days a week, has had to undergo the same clearance and training I just described.

It's not a matter of leaving children with "nice" people, but rather qualified and clearanced people.




I agree with Punky.  All those precautions are in place at our church, too.  Children are certainly safer there than they are most anywhere else. 

I wonder if the Mormon church has ever gotten around to requiring background checks for their "clergy" and primary workers?  I bet they haven't.  It's a disaster waiting to happen.  Disaster probably already HAS happened.

KA
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Posted: 05 June 2007 09:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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KimberlyAnn:
 
I wonder if the Mormon church has ever gotten around to requiring background checks for their "clergy" and primary workers?  I bet they haven't.  It's a disaster waiting to happen.  Disaster probably already HAS happened.





 
Everyone who watches the local news in Utah knows the disaster IS happening.  They are arresting a local Mormon leader for pediophilia at least once a month, and that is just the tip of the iceburg.

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Posted: 05 June 2007 11:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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i'm glad to see this issue being discussed.  I always worry about who I am allowing to have access to my kids.  Our church also has a criminal background check of all volunteers, in all positions, no matter if they work with kids or not.  You'd think that some volunteer positions that do not deal with kids should not require this, but when people start volunteering in a church in one position and earns trust, they can always "fall through the cracks" if they decide to volunteer in a different area in which there are kids.  The church feels that they must know if any volunteer has a criminal background.   Our school also does the same thing for all parent volunteers as well as teachers.  very smart in my thinking.
Our church also has a vacation bible school and I always send our son with a buddy, who I request they stay together at all times.  They always honor such a request and that they never leave each other's sides.  We always have a serious talk before all these events about what behaviors are not "appropriate" and how if he ever feels uncomfortable about anyone, student or teacher, he must go to a leader and tell this and have them call me. 
I had to have this talk with my son since I sent him to preschool.  It made me feel a little sad, as we never knew about such terrible things until probably late elementary school.  Now, however, in order to protect your children, you must teach them what is inappropriate behavior as sensitively as possible and very early. 

   


Posted: 06 June 2007 12:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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dogzilla:
Here's one reason I was grateful that my mom was too busy doing drugs to be bothered providing any manner of enrichment for us.



I know this is off the topic and perhaps too personal, but what is your mother like now?  I have other friends who had mothers who were too busy doing drugs to nurture their kids and these moms are either all dead or are living a pretty terrible exsistence in their older years.  Most of them look 20 years older than their age.  some of them have had several more marriages since their kids were little.  Most of my friends who lived in these situations either had to raise themselves or had to raise themselves and younger siblings.   One friend in particular did the foster home circuit, being separated from her siblings.  We're still friends and she never will refer to either one of her parents.  Even though they're both alive, to her they died a long time ago... like the day she was put in foster care.
I have read your exit story and many of your posts related to your dad, but wasn't aware you also had a mom busy doing drugs.   I didn't even have to live through it, but I've seen that scene from the outside. All I can say is that I'm sorry you were faced with that and I surely admire you for making yourself into a big success.  
As for your mother.... 

   


Posted: 06 June 2007 03:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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Tthom:
KimberlyAnn:

I wonder if the Mormon church has ever gotten around to requiring background checks for their "clergy" and primary workers?  I bet they haven't.  It's a disaster waiting to happen.  Disaster probably already HAS happened.






Everyone who watches the local news in Utah knows the disaster IS happening.  They are arresting a local Mormon leader for pediophilia at least once a month, and that is just the tip of the iceburg.






Wow. I don't live in a heavily Mormon area and I've only heard of a few cases of pedophilia either through the rumor mill or read about them on ex-Mormon bulletin boards. Arrests monthly? That's sickening. I can't believe the LDS church isn't doing something about that by requiring background checks.

Are all the classroom doors still solid and the windows up high? In my old ward building, no one could see in the classrooms at all if the doors were shut. Some drastic measures need to be taken if child molestation (or worse) is that rampant in Utah. Disgusting.

KA

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Posted: 06 June 2007 04:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
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And run the risk of my children becoming Christian??? No.  But whatever, they live in Oklahoma and the Baptists are probably putting Christian powder in the school lunch anyway.  Yes, I am kidding about the last sentence, I hope.
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Posted: 06 June 2007 04:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
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KimberlyAnn:[
Are all the classroom doors still solid and the windows up high? In my old ward building, no one could see in the classrooms at all if the doors were shut. Some drastic measures need to be taken if child molestation (or worse) is that rampant in Utah. Disgusting.



KA






KA: I think they have installed glass windows in all the LDS buildings and have two teachers assigned per class.  Several months ago I attended an Eagle Court of Honor at the building I once attended church.  All the classroom doors had been fitted with glass windows.
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Posted: 06 June 2007 04:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
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It would good if the church ran background checks on priesthood and youth leadership.  A past bishop in the stake and ward I attended, had been convicted of crimes invovling male prostitution prior to being called as a bishop.  No one knew.  Later, he was accused of molesting a teenage boy.  The accusation was never proven, but the ex-bishop was excommunicated because during the LDS investigation, this idiot was arrested for soliciting a male prostitute at a new by university!
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Posted: 06 June 2007 05:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]   

   
 
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Skeptical:And run the risk of my children becoming Christian??? No.  But whatever, they live in Oklahoma and the Baptists are probably putting Christian powder in the school lunch anyway.  Yes, I am kidding about the last sentence, I hope.

Where in Oklahoma?  We lived in Oklahoma City for 3 1/2 years after we were married.  It's where I first put in my request to leave the church...where it was ignored, even though the bishop was so nice and told me all I had to do was scribble it on a piece of paper, sign it with my birthdate, which I did.  And here I thought the missionaries were so nice to bring the bish when I told them that's what I wanted.  I got the whole, "You know the consequences of your decision, don't you?" and was shaking like a leaf, but hey, I did and thought things would be fine.....but apperantly he never did anything with it and I had to do the whole process over again....Oops, that was kinda random.  Anyway, where in OK?
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Posted: 06 June 2007 06:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]   

   
 
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Skeptical:
KimberlyAnn:[
Are all the classroom doors still solid and the windows up high? In my old ward building, no one could see in the classrooms at all if the doors were shut. Some drastic measures need to be taken if child molestation (or worse) is that rampant in Utah. Disgusting.



KA







KA: I think they have installed glass windows in all the LDS buildings and have two teachers assigned per class.  Several months ago I attended an Eagle Court of Honor at the building I once attended church.  All the classroom doors had been fitted with glass windows.

That's good news, Skep.  I'm so glad to hear it.

Thanks for the info.

KA
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Posted: 06 June 2007 06:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]   

   
 
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beenthere:
Skeptical:And run the risk of my children becoming Christian??? No.  But whatever, they live in Oklahoma and the Baptists are probably putting Christian powder in the school lunch anyway.  Yes, I am kidding about the last sentence, I hope.

Where in Oklahoma?  We lived in Oklahoma City for 3 1/2 years after we were married.  It's where I first put in my request to leave the church...where it was ignored, even though the bishop was so nice and told me all I had to do was scribble it on a piece of paper, sign it with my birthdate, which I did.  And here I thought the missionaries were so nice to bring the bish when I told them that's what I wanted.  I got the whole, "You know the consequences of your decision, don't you?" and was shaking like a leaf, but hey, I did and thought things would be fine.....but apperantly he never did anything with it and I had to do the whole process over again....Oops, that was kinda random.  Anyway, where in OK?

Beenthere, I won't answer for Skep, but I live near Tulsa.  It's so much prettier than OKC.  Sorry you Oklahoma City folks, but it's true.  :P

KA
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Posted: 06 June 2007 12:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]   

   
 
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KimberlyAnn:
beenthere:
Skeptical:And run the risk of my children becoming Christian??? No.  But whatever, they live in Oklahoma and the Baptists are probably putting Christian powder in the school lunch anyway.  Yes, I am kidding about the last sentence, I hope.

Where in Oklahoma?  We lived in Oklahoma City for 3 1/2 years after we were married.  It's where I first put in my request to leave the church...where it was ignored, even though the bishop was so nice and told me all I had to do was scribble it on a piece of paper, sign it with my birthdate, which I did.  And here I thought the missionaries were so nice to bring the bish when I told them that's what I wanted.  I got the whole, "You know the consequences of your decision, don't you?" and was shaking like a leaf, but hey, I did and thought things would be fine.....but apperantly he never did anything with it and I had to do the whole process over again....Oops, that was kinda random.  Anyway, where in OK?



Beenthere, I won't answer for Skep, but I live near Tulsa.  It's so much prettier than OKC.  Sorry you Oklahoma City folks, but it's true.  :P



KA



Still laughing.  As inferred by KA, I live in Oklahoma City, which is just prettier than Tulsa, but here, reading and writing aren't seen as luxuries.  Also, Oklahoma City is the cultural center of the state, a title Tulsa used to own but has since lost due to its inability to pay for improvements.
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Posted: 06 June 2007 12:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]   

   
 
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Skeptical:
KimberlyAnn:
beenthere:
Skeptical:And run the risk of my children becoming Christian??? No.  But whatever, they live in Oklahoma and the Baptists are probably putting Christian powder in the school lunch anyway.  Yes, I am kidding about the last sentence, I hope.

Where in Oklahoma?  We lived in Oklahoma City for 3 1/2 years after we were married.  It's where I first put in my request to leave the church...where it was ignored, even though the bishop was so nice and told me all I had to do was scribble it on a piece of paper, sign it with my birthdate, which I did.  And here I thought the missionaries were so nice to bring the bish when I told them that's what I wanted.  I got the whole, "You know the consequences of your decision, don't you?" and was shaking like a leaf, but hey, I did and thought things would be fine.....but apperantly he never did anything with it and I had to do the whole process over again....Oops, that was kinda random.  Anyway, where in OK?



Beenthere, I won't answer for Skep, but I live near Tulsa.  It's so much prettier than OKC.  Sorry you Oklahoma City folks, but it's true.  :P



KA




Still laughing.  As inferred by KA, I live in Oklahoma City, which is just prettier than Tulsa, but here, reading and writing aren't seen as luxuries.  Also, Oklahoma City is the cultural center of the state, a title Tulsa used to own but has since lost due to its inability to pay for improvements.

Reading and writing LUXURIES? HaHa, Skep.  You're right about OKC's improvements, though.  I actually don't mind going to OKC anymore.  But the land is still prettier here in the Tulsa area.  There's nothing you OKC folks can do about your ugly flat terrain. :P

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Posted: 06 June 2007 12:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]   

   
 
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KimberlyAnn:
Skeptical:
KimberlyAnn:
beenthere:
Skeptical:And run the risk of my children becoming Christian??? No.  But whatever, they live in Oklahoma and the Baptists are probably putting Christian powder in the school lunch anyway.  Yes, I am kidding about the last sentence, I hope.

Where in Oklahoma?  We lived in Oklahoma City for 3 1/2 years after we were married.  It's where I first put in my request to leave the church...where it was ignored, even though the bishop was so nice and told me all I had to do was scribble it on a piece of paper, sign it with my birthdate, which I did.  And here I thought the missionaries were so nice to bring the bish when I told them that's what I wanted.  I got the whole, "You know the consequences of your decision, don't you?" and was shaking like a leaf, but hey, I did and thought things would be fine.....but apperantly he never did anything with it and I had to do the whole process over again....Oops, that was kinda random.  Anyway, where in OK?



Beenthere, I won't answer for Skep, but I live near Tulsa.  It's so much prettier than OKC.  Sorry you Oklahoma City folks, but it's true.  :P



KA




Still laughing.  As inferred by KA, I live in Oklahoma City, which is just prettier than Tulsa, but here, reading and writing aren't seen as luxuries.  Also, Oklahoma City is the cultural center of the state, a title Tulsa used to own but has since lost due to its inability to pay for improvements.



Reading and writing LUXURIES? HaHa, Skep.  You're right about OKC's improvements, though.  I actually don't mind going to OKC anymore.  But the land is still prettier here in the Tulsa area.  There's nothing you OKC folks can do about your ugly flat terrain. :P



KA



HA!  I'm Utah born and raised and the view here is much better then anything in OK. 
I've only been to Tulsa once, driving through to Arkansas.  I think I was half asleep when I was there, but it is much more hilly and green the OKC.  DH's sister went to a baptist college in Tulsa.
We lived in quite a few different areas in OKC.  DH is considering moving back (NO!!!).....it's a long story.  He grew up off of 23rd and Meridian.....I don't know if you've ever seen the Windsor Hills Baptist Church but driving by that billboard to his parents house always made me so mad I would almost see red.  Drove me nuts.....Not that that has anything to do with this thread, but brought it up anyway.....
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Posted: 06 June 2007 01:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]   

   
 
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pnut:
I know this is off the topic and perhaps too personal, but what is your mother like now?  I have other friends who had mothers who were too busy doing drugs to nurture their kids and these moms are either all dead or are living a pretty terrible exsistence in their older years.  Most of them look 20 years older than their age.  some of them have had several more marriages since their kids were little.  Most of my friends who lived in these situations either had to raise themselves or had to raise themselves and younger siblings.   One friend in particular did the foster home circuit, being separated from her siblings.  We're still friends and she never will refer to either one of her parents.  Even though they're both alive, to her they died a long time ago... like the day she was put in foster care.
I have read your exit story and many of your posts related to your dad, but wasn't aware you also had a mom busy doing drugs.   I didn't even have to live through it, but I've seen that scene from the outside. All I can say is that I'm sorry you were faced with that and I surely admire you for making yourself into a big success.  
As for your mother....

Way off topic... I'll PM you so as not to derail the discussion...
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Posted: 06 June 2007 02:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]   

   
 
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Everyone who watches the local news in Utah knows the disaster IS happening.  They are arresting a local Mormon leader for pediophilia at least once a month, and that is just the tip of the iceburg.




I would love to see Dateline (NBC) set up a sting in SLC.  I wonder if the cops would cooperate like they do in other cities.  If they did it would open the eyes of a lot of people.
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Posted: 06 June 2007 02:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]   

   
 
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Tthom:
KimberlyAnn:
 
I wonder if the Mormon church has ever gotten around to requiring background checks for their "clergy" and primary workers?  I bet they haven't.  It's a disaster waiting to happen.  Disaster probably already HAS happened.





 
Everyone who watches the local news in Utah knows the disaster IS happening.  They are arresting a local Mormon leader for pediophilia at least once a month, and that is just the tip of the iceburg.




And not just in Utah.  We're seeing it out in my neck of the woods, too.
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