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LDS leader tells Mormons to embrace their history, keep their faith  
Posted: 17 March 2014 03:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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DaveManCan
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 Here's the link:
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/lifestyle/57647487-80/church-history-lds-uchtdorf.html.csp
Here's what really stood out for me:
1-"quick to discard their faith if what they learn appears inconsistent with LDS teachings". Where do you go with this statement? There are so many contradictions. For example the facsimiles from the Book of Abraham. They are canonized in LDS scripture.
2-"There will be times when it may appear that things are going badly for the truth of God, that the evidence of the world contradicts God’s utterances,". Badly? What people are finding is that what they are taught and have been taught is absolutely not true.
3-"It is my conviction that those who disregard the reality of heaven will ultimately find themselves on the wrong side of history. That is true for any issue, even the issues we are struggling with today." Who is denying the reality of heaven? People are denying the reality of church history and for good reason.
4-"Church members are divided about how far to delve into our history when it sometimes brings up disturbing matters," he said. "President Uchtdorf advocates openness. … He is saying we need not fear so long as we heed his advice and remain patient and open." Here's the sad truth, any church member's rebuttal to any of the historical inaccuracies is exhausted immediately by the overwhelming supportive evidence to the contrary.
In summary, the church has no other place to go. They can not defend a history so controversial. Furthermore, to associate Mormon history as being as complicated as other world religion is ludicrous. First of all, Mormonism is only 200 years old. It's history is clear to the seeker. What is really going on is the church can no longer contain their bizarre history. The admonition to "be patient" is clearly a stall while they strategize. They clearly will not win.
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Believe those who are seeking the truth.  Doubt those who find it.  ~Andre Gide


   


Posted: 17 March 2014 04:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized
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It is clear that the church is using Uchtdorf as its point man in this situation. They understand that he is seen by many TBMs as a matinée idol. Monson is losing his faculties and Eyring is just a blubbering fool who is too quick to turn on the water works. There are others in the 12 who would be just as authoritative or convincing, but his position in the first presidency gives him more credibility among mormons.
 
It's as if Uchtdorf is (or the church is, through Uchtdorf) softening the blow for TBMs in advance of the shit storm that is surely to come. Uchtdorf's comments at the last conference were very telling:
 
-
The search for truth has led millions of people to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. However, there are some who leave the Church they once loved.
 
One might ask, “If the gospel is so wonderful, why would anyone leave?”
 
Sometimes we assume it is because they have been offended or lazy or sinful. Actually, it is not that simple. In fact, there is not just one reason that applies to the variety of situations. 
 
Here, he is going against that which has been preached from the pulpit for years.
 
Here, he is actually legitimizing, or at the least giving credence to, the complaints of the dissenters. 
 
-
Some of our dear members struggle for years with the question whether they should separate themselves from the Church.
 
In this Church that honors personal agency so strongly, that was restored by a young man who asked questions and sought answers, we respect those who honestly search for truth. It may break our hearts when their journey takes them away from the Church we love and the truth we have found, but we honor their right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their own conscience, just as we claim that privilege for ourselves.
 
This again gives credibility to the dissenters, admitting that their decisions are not made lightly.
 
Here, he is almost telling members to treat dissenters with dignity, again going against what has been preached from the pulpit for years.
 
-
Some struggle with unanswered questions about things that have been done or said in the past. We openly acknowledge that in nearly 200 years of Church history—along with an uninterrupted line of inspired, honorable, and divine events—there have been some things said and done that could cause people to question.
 
Sometimes questions arise because we simply don’t have all the information and we just need a bit more patience. When the entire truth is eventually known, things that didn’t make sense to us before will be resolved to our satisfaction.
 
Sometimes there is a difference of opinion as to what the “facts” really mean. A question that creates doubt in some can, after careful investigation, build faith in others. 
 
Here, he again gives credibility to the arguments of the dissenters. Why? Because the church knows this shit is coming out faster than they can stem the flow. However, in this case "could" is a weasel word designed to give TSCC a way out. More honestly, he should have left that word out. These things DO cause people to question.
 
These are more than likely statements to calm the TBM masses. The church knows full well that the "faithful" will cling to these statements against all bullet-proof evidence to the contrary. They are definitely hedging their bets with this type of statement. Furthermore, by putting "facts" in quotations, they are putting doubts into the faithful, doubts that these things aren't really "facts" at all. This becomes a very misleading statement.
 
-
And, to be perfectly frank, there have been times when members or leaders in the Church have simply made mistakes. There may have been things said or done that were not in harmony with our values, principles, or doctrine. 
 
Again, he has legitimized the dissenters' arguments. Unfortunately, he again uses weasel words to soften the blow for members. There is no "may have been", these things really were said or done.
 
I could go on, but you get the point. Uchtdorf, and not Holland or Bednar or Monson or any of the others, is being used for a very, very deliberate purpose. I would like to see this message coming from other leaders, but I doubt it. Uchtdorf is the man to deliver the message, in comforting tones, telling one and all that everything is going to be alright.
 
I just hope, for the sake of the man himself, that they do not throw him under the bus. 
 
 
 
 
 
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We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler


   


Posted: 17 March 2014 05:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Bold Wish
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I like the comparison of finding out the reality of the organization's history and current deceitful practices compared to to finding out your spouse has been lying to you, deceiving you, after you were dedicated to your spouse, after years of trusting your spouse, after years of devoting your life to your spouse with 100% fidelity.
Let's think about it - what would PFU say to a wayward spouse? "Oh, that's not a problem dear, so now I have genital herpes too - so what, you're still a great woman and I love you - that's the only thing that really matters"
Or, would he say "Ya, I know you've always been cheating on me but we've all made mistakes - it's okay, don't worry about these little flicks of history"
Would he still doubt his doubts about his wife if he watched a video of her with her lover? "Oh that video (sound of PU chuckling), well, there will be times when it may appear that things are going badly for our marriage, that the evidence of the video contradicts our marriage vows, but I can assure you, in the name of Cheezes of Nazareth, our marriage is as strong as it ever was"
PFU, I got something to say to you pal, you're a fool, a god damn arrogant lying fool. What the hell gives you the right to tell ANYONE to doubt their freedom of choice, their right to use their own reasoning skills and search for things that are true and then use their brain to figure out if the facts make sense but instead you tell them to listen to what you say and and then believe all of it? Seriously?
Well then, are you going to tell them the entire truth without any spin or omitting any of the sickening details? Oh wait - you don't think they would want to know these things? Really, you know this because you're a prophet? Are you going to stand in front of the entire world, proclaiming yourself as a prophet, seer, and revelator and then honestly tell everyone you truly believe god commanded a 37 year old man to marry a fourteen year old girl? Then why the hell not? Isn't that the official statement from the organization? Isn't that a fact? Isn't it true? Don't members have the RIGHT to know these facts. Didn't GBH say your history is an open book and you have nothing to hide? Then why not reveal it?
Because you and your organization would be seen as the world's biggest jack ass, that's why, and you know it. And so would any of the other Q15 if they did that. But none of YOU have to make those claims because all of you can hide behind the banter of "Cheezes This" or "Cheezes That" - how convenient . . . and how totally uncreative and completely fake.
Why do you show "investigators" images of JS translating plates with his finger on them instead of showing them JS with his head in a hat, reading from a peep stone he found while digging a well?
And then show them a painting of Quakers on the moon and tell the members and investigators what BY said about interracial couples. Oh, wait - these things don't really matter? See, that's exactly where you are wrong because, yes, oh hell yes they matter because they are facts. If your organization had disclosed these facts in the beginning, I wouldn't have had anything to do with your organization and neither would anyone else and you know it.
PFU, the bottom line is you're a liar, you're a fool and you're scum: your deceitful nature, your immoral tactics of pleading with people, persuading them to trust what you tell them instead of searching for truth, finding facts - facts that you or anyone else cannot change - the truths that even you refuse to defend. You won't defend these things that are diabolically weird, unnatural, and horribly wrong because you know if you had an ounce of honesty in your being you would come clean, you would tell the world it's just a scam that god really did not command JS to marry that girl, those other girls, those women who were already married.
But you won't ever admit that because you, yes you Peter F Uchtdorf are a hypocritical liar because you refuse to state the truth while you persuade others to ignore the truth. I have no respect for you because you and the organization paying for you to promote their agenda are immoral. The great irony is the organization claims every other organization except them is wrong but they continue to deceive so they can maintain control, they continue to take money and time while rewarding with guilt, lies, and false promises.
Due to the plethora of facts readily available, due to members who will "feel the spirit" knowing it's not right for someone to tell them not to trust their own judgment - these people will search the truth and they will find it. Eventually, yes, people will be leaving in droves - this process has already started and the momentum will build and sooner or later, your "great and powerful" organization will crumble, dwindling to nothing. New membership numbers are falling - could it be these "investigators" are doubting the people who tell them to doubt the plethora of damning evidence, to doubt their own reasoning skills? I hope so!
I'm happy to see so many who have had enough common sense to put their faith in themselves, to trust their own minds before trusting men who stand behind an organization founded by a sexual predator, and then the next so-called prophet who slaughtered people, and so forth, and so on until today when these self-proclaimed "men of god" are in the spotlight, skillfully reasoning away from their listeners, one's own right to search, to think, and to decide and Peter, that's just wrong, you're a total ass for doing it and somebody needs to stand up to you and just tell you that.
So there.
 Signature
When I discovered the truth and realized the organization was lying to me, that they had always been lying to me, I felt a sting of betrayal, the humiliation from an organization who profits abundantly by violating trust.  I knew that no matter what would come of it, I could no longer remain associated with the organization in any way.  Since leaving, I’ve enjoyed thinking on my own, guilt is almost a foreign concept, and being in control of my life is incredibly satisfying.


   


Posted: 17 March 2014 06:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
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Joined  2010-05-22
 
  
 
Bold Wish:
 
I like the comparison of finding out the reality of the organization's history and current deceitful practices compared to to finding out your spouse has been lying to you, deceiving you, after you were dedicated to your spouse, after years of trusting your spouse, after years of devoting your life to your spouse with 100% fidelity.
Let's think about it - what would PFU say to a wayward spouse? "Oh, that's not a problem dear, so now I have genital herpes too - so what, you're still a great woman and I love you - that's the only thing that really matters"
Or, would he say "Ya, I know you've always been cheating on me but we've all made mistakes - it's okay, don't worry about these little flicks of history"
Would he still doubt his doubts about his wife if he watched a video of her with her lover? "Oh that video (sound of PU chuckling), well, there will be times when it may appear that things are going badly for our marriage, that the evidence of the video contradicts our marriage vows, but I can assure you, in the name of Cheezes of Nazareth, our marriage is as strong as it ever was"
PFU, I got something to say to you pal, you're a fool, a god damn arrogant lying fool. What the hell gives you the right to tell ANYONE to doubt their freedom of choice, their right to use their own reasoning skills and search for things that are true and then use their brain to figure out if the facts make sense but instead you tell them to listen to what you say and and then believe all of it? Seriously?
Well then, are you going to tell them the entire truth without any spin or omitting any of the sickening details? Oh wait - you don't think they would want to know these things? Really, you know this because you're a prophet? Are you going to stand in front of the entire world, proclaiming yourself as a prophet, seer, and revelator and then honestly tell everyone you truly believe god commanded a 37 year old man to marry a fourteen year old girl? Then why the hell not? Isn't that the official statement from the organization? Isn't that a fact? Isn't it true? Don't members have the RIGHT to know these facts. Didn't GBH say your history is an open book and you have nothing to hide? Then why not reveal it?
Because you and your organization would be seen as the world's biggest jack ass, that's why, and you know it. And so would any of the other Q15 if they did that. But none of YOU have to make those claims because all of you can hide behind the banter of "Cheezes This" or "Cheezes That" - how convenient . . . and how totally uncreative and completely fake.
Why do you show "investigators" images of JS translating plates with his finger on them instead of showing them JS with his head in a hat, reading from a peep stone he found while digging a well?
And then show them a painting of Quakers on the moon and tell the members and investigators what BY said about interracial couples. Oh, wait - these things don't really matter? See, that's exactly where you are wrong because, yes, oh hell yes they matter because they are facts. If your organization had disclosed these facts in the beginning, I wouldn't have had anything to do with your organization and neither would anyone else and you know it.
PFU, the bottom line is you're a liar, you're a fool and you're scum: your deceitful nature, your immoral tactics of pleading with people, persuading them to trust what you tell them instead of searching for truth, finding facts - facts that you or anyone else cannot change - the truths that even you refuse to defend. You won't defend these things that are diabolically weird, unnatural, and horribly wrong because you know if you had an ounce of honesty in your being you would come clean, you would tell the world it's just a scam that god really did not command JS to marry that girl, those other girls, those women who were already married.
But you won't ever admit that because you, yes you Peter F Uchtdorf are a hypocritical liar because you refuse to state the truth while you persuade others to ignore the truth. I have no respect for you because you and the organization paying for you to promote their agenda are immoral. The great irony is the organization claims every other organization except them is wrong but they continue to deceive so they can maintain control, they continue to take money and time while rewarding with guilt, lies, and false promises.
Due to the plethora of facts readily available, due to members who will "feel the spirit" knowing it's not right for someone to tell them not to trust their own judgment - these people will search the truth and they will find it. Eventually, yes, people will be leaving in droves - this process has already started and the momentum will build and sooner or later, your "great and powerful" organization will crumble, dwindling to nothing. New membership numbers are falling - could it be these "investigators" are doubting the people who tell them to doubt the plethora of damning evidence, to doubt their own reasoning skills? I hope so!
I'm happy to see so many who have had enough common sense to put their faith in themselves, to trust their own minds before trusting men who stand behind an organization founded by a sexual predator, and then the next so-called prophet who slaughtered people, and so forth, and so on until today when these self-proclaimed "men of god" are in the spotlight, skillfully reasoning away from their listeners, one's own right to search, to think, and to decide and Peter, that's just wrong, you're a total ass for doing it and somebody needs to stand up to you and just tell you that.
So there.
I have a feeling the day will come--and perhaps sooner than we think--when those lying bone heads will call a news brief to apologize to the members and PostMos for lying to us and to the world.  There will be tears--for sure--but they will not be for us, the tears will be for themselves.  I don't think they will apologize at all because they are sorry but because they have been dragged to this point--kicking and screaming.  I am thinking the apologizing will be to try to persuade us to not sue them for everything their many corporations own and perhaps they will be worried about being in cells next to Bernie Madoff.  Same game...only they have hurt many of us so much more than Bernie hurt any of his victims.   What they have done to us is not OK and their cookie has started to crumble.   
 


   


Posted: 17 March 2014 07:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
Nephi
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Such a great idea. So inspired.
 
Think I will get a few "I LOVE Mountain Meadows Massacre" t-shirts.
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Once you’ve tasted the grapes of wrath, you’ll never be satisfied with bananas.
No religion, no problems. Know religion, Know problems.


   


Posted: 17 March 2014 07:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
Free2Live
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Joined  2012-09-01
 
  
 
Nephi:
Such a great idea. So inspired.
 
Think I will get a few "I LOVE Mountain Meadows Massacre" t-shirts.
 

 
mr dehlin needs a shirt that says STAY-LDS because MMM isn't such a big deal.
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One is as committed into testimony as much as they pay into the belief in dollars time talent and energy. Afterall, it has to be true once you signed the lifetime subscription and you have a track record to defend.


   


            
 
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OCTOBER CONFERENCE
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Financial Report for 2009

Twin Falls Newspaper Article

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Financial Report for 2009 to Date




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LDS leader tells Mormons to embrace their history, keep their faith  
Posted: 17 March 2014 03:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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DaveManCan
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 Here's the link:
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/lifestyle/57647487-80/church-history-lds-uchtdorf.html.csp
Here's what really stood out for me:
1-"quick to discard their faith if what they learn appears inconsistent with LDS teachings". Where do you go with this statement? There are so many contradictions. For example the facsimiles from the Book of Abraham. They are canonized in LDS scripture.
2-"There will be times when it may appear that things are going badly for the truth of God, that the evidence of the world contradicts God’s utterances,". Badly? What people are finding is that what they are taught and have been taught is absolutely not true.
3-"It is my conviction that those who disregard the reality of heaven will ultimately find themselves on the wrong side of history. That is true for any issue, even the issues we are struggling with today." Who is denying the reality of heaven? People are denying the reality of church history and for good reason.
4-"Church members are divided about how far to delve into our history when it sometimes brings up disturbing matters," he said. "President Uchtdorf advocates openness. … He is saying we need not fear so long as we heed his advice and remain patient and open." Here's the sad truth, any church member's rebuttal to any of the historical inaccuracies is exhausted immediately by the overwhelming supportive evidence to the contrary.
In summary, the church has no other place to go. They can not defend a history so controversial. Furthermore, to associate Mormon history as being as complicated as other world religion is ludicrous. First of all, Mormonism is only 200 years old. It's history is clear to the seeker. What is really going on is the church can no longer contain their bizarre history. The admonition to "be patient" is clearly a stall while they strategize. They clearly will not win.
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Posted: 17 March 2014 04:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized
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It is clear that the church is using Uchtdorf as its point man in this situation. They understand that he is seen by many TBMs as a matinée idol. Monson is losing his faculties and Eyring is just a blubbering fool who is too quick to turn on the water works. There are others in the 12 who would be just as authoritative or convincing, but his position in the first presidency gives him more credibility among mormons.
 
It's as if Uchtdorf is (or the church is, through Uchtdorf) softening the blow for TBMs in advance of the shit storm that is surely to come. Uchtdorf's comments at the last conference were very telling:
 
-
The search for truth has led millions of people to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. However, there are some who leave the Church they once loved.
 
One might ask, “If the gospel is so wonderful, why would anyone leave?”
 
Sometimes we assume it is because they have been offended or lazy or sinful. Actually, it is not that simple. In fact, there is not just one reason that applies to the variety of situations. 
 
Here, he is going against that which has been preached from the pulpit for years.
 
Here, he is actually legitimizing, or at the least giving credence to, the complaints of the dissenters. 
 
-
Some of our dear members struggle for years with the question whether they should separate themselves from the Church.
 
In this Church that honors personal agency so strongly, that was restored by a young man who asked questions and sought answers, we respect those who honestly search for truth. It may break our hearts when their journey takes them away from the Church we love and the truth we have found, but we honor their right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their own conscience, just as we claim that privilege for ourselves.
 
This again gives credibility to the dissenters, admitting that their decisions are not made lightly.
 
Here, he is almost telling members to treat dissenters with dignity, again going against what has been preached from the pulpit for years.
 
-
Some struggle with unanswered questions about things that have been done or said in the past. We openly acknowledge that in nearly 200 years of Church history—along with an uninterrupted line of inspired, honorable, and divine events—there have been some things said and done that could cause people to question.
 
Sometimes questions arise because we simply don’t have all the information and we just need a bit more patience. When the entire truth is eventually known, things that didn’t make sense to us before will be resolved to our satisfaction.
 
Sometimes there is a difference of opinion as to what the “facts” really mean. A question that creates doubt in some can, after careful investigation, build faith in others. 
 
Here, he again gives credibility to the arguments of the dissenters. Why? Because the church knows this shit is coming out faster than they can stem the flow. However, in this case "could" is a weasel word designed to give TSCC a way out. More honestly, he should have left that word out. These things DO cause people to question.
 
These are more than likely statements to calm the TBM masses. The church knows full well that the "faithful" will cling to these statements against all bullet-proof evidence to the contrary. They are definitely hedging their bets with this type of statement. Furthermore, by putting "facts" in quotations, they are putting doubts into the faithful, doubts that these things aren't really "facts" at all. This becomes a very misleading statement.
 
-
And, to be perfectly frank, there have been times when members or leaders in the Church have simply made mistakes. There may have been things said or done that were not in harmony with our values, principles, or doctrine. 
 
Again, he has legitimized the dissenters' arguments. Unfortunately, he again uses weasel words to soften the blow for members. There is no "may have been", these things really were said or done.
 
I could go on, but you get the point. Uchtdorf, and not Holland or Bednar or Monson or any of the others, is being used for a very, very deliberate purpose. I would like to see this message coming from other leaders, but I doubt it. Uchtdorf is the man to deliver the message, in comforting tones, telling one and all that everything is going to be alright.
 
I just hope, for the sake of the man himself, that they do not throw him under the bus. 
 
 
 
 
 
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Posted: 17 March 2014 05:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Bold Wish
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I like the comparison of finding out the reality of the organization's history and current deceitful practices compared to to finding out your spouse has been lying to you, deceiving you, after you were dedicated to your spouse, after years of trusting your spouse, after years of devoting your life to your spouse with 100% fidelity.
Let's think about it - what would PFU say to a wayward spouse? "Oh, that's not a problem dear, so now I have genital herpes too - so what, you're still a great woman and I love you - that's the only thing that really matters"
Or, would he say "Ya, I know you've always been cheating on me but we've all made mistakes - it's okay, don't worry about these little flicks of history"
Would he still doubt his doubts about his wife if he watched a video of her with her lover? "Oh that video (sound of PU chuckling), well, there will be times when it may appear that things are going badly for our marriage, that the evidence of the video contradicts our marriage vows, but I can assure you, in the name of Cheezes of Nazareth, our marriage is as strong as it ever was"
PFU, I got something to say to you pal, you're a fool, a god damn arrogant lying fool. What the hell gives you the right to tell ANYONE to doubt their freedom of choice, their right to use their own reasoning skills and search for things that are true and then use their brain to figure out if the facts make sense but instead you tell them to listen to what you say and and then believe all of it? Seriously?
Well then, are you going to tell them the entire truth without any spin or omitting any of the sickening details? Oh wait - you don't think they would want to know these things? Really, you know this because you're a prophet? Are you going to stand in front of the entire world, proclaiming yourself as a prophet, seer, and revelator and then honestly tell everyone you truly believe god commanded a 37 year old man to marry a fourteen year old girl? Then why the hell not? Isn't that the official statement from the organization? Isn't that a fact? Isn't it true? Don't members have the RIGHT to know these facts. Didn't GBH say your history is an open book and you have nothing to hide? Then why not reveal it?
Because you and your organization would be seen as the world's biggest jack ass, that's why, and you know it. And so would any of the other Q15 if they did that. But none of YOU have to make those claims because all of you can hide behind the banter of "Cheezes This" or "Cheezes That" - how convenient . . . and how totally uncreative and completely fake.
Why do you show "investigators" images of JS translating plates with his finger on them instead of showing them JS with his head in a hat, reading from a peep stone he found while digging a well?
And then show them a painting of Quakers on the moon and tell the members and investigators what BY said about interracial couples. Oh, wait - these things don't really matter? See, that's exactly where you are wrong because, yes, oh hell yes they matter because they are facts. If your organization had disclosed these facts in the beginning, I wouldn't have had anything to do with your organization and neither would anyone else and you know it.
PFU, the bottom line is you're a liar, you're a fool and you're scum: your deceitful nature, your immoral tactics of pleading with people, persuading them to trust what you tell them instead of searching for truth, finding facts - facts that you or anyone else cannot change - the truths that even you refuse to defend. You won't defend these things that are diabolically weird, unnatural, and horribly wrong because you know if you had an ounce of honesty in your being you would come clean, you would tell the world it's just a scam that god really did not command JS to marry that girl, those other girls, those women who were already married.
But you won't ever admit that because you, yes you Peter F Uchtdorf are a hypocritical liar because you refuse to state the truth while you persuade others to ignore the truth. I have no respect for you because you and the organization paying for you to promote their agenda are immoral. The great irony is the organization claims every other organization except them is wrong but they continue to deceive so they can maintain control, they continue to take money and time while rewarding with guilt, lies, and false promises.
Due to the plethora of facts readily available, due to members who will "feel the spirit" knowing it's not right for someone to tell them not to trust their own judgment - these people will search the truth and they will find it. Eventually, yes, people will be leaving in droves - this process has already started and the momentum will build and sooner or later, your "great and powerful" organization will crumble, dwindling to nothing. New membership numbers are falling - could it be these "investigators" are doubting the people who tell them to doubt the plethora of damning evidence, to doubt their own reasoning skills? I hope so!
I'm happy to see so many who have had enough common sense to put their faith in themselves, to trust their own minds before trusting men who stand behind an organization founded by a sexual predator, and then the next so-called prophet who slaughtered people, and so forth, and so on until today when these self-proclaimed "men of god" are in the spotlight, skillfully reasoning away from their listeners, one's own right to search, to think, and to decide and Peter, that's just wrong, you're a total ass for doing it and somebody needs to stand up to you and just tell you that.
So there.
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When I discovered the truth and realized the organization was lying to me, that they had always been lying to me, I felt a sting of betrayal, the humiliation from an organization who profits abundantly by violating trust.  I knew that no matter what would come of it, I could no longer remain associated with the organization in any way.  Since leaving, I’ve enjoyed thinking on my own, guilt is almost a foreign concept, and being in control of my life is incredibly satisfying.


   


Posted: 17 March 2014 06:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
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Bold Wish:
 
I like the comparison of finding out the reality of the organization's history and current deceitful practices compared to to finding out your spouse has been lying to you, deceiving you, after you were dedicated to your spouse, after years of trusting your spouse, after years of devoting your life to your spouse with 100% fidelity.
Let's think about it - what would PFU say to a wayward spouse? "Oh, that's not a problem dear, so now I have genital herpes too - so what, you're still a great woman and I love you - that's the only thing that really matters"
Or, would he say "Ya, I know you've always been cheating on me but we've all made mistakes - it's okay, don't worry about these little flicks of history"
Would he still doubt his doubts about his wife if he watched a video of her with her lover? "Oh that video (sound of PU chuckling), well, there will be times when it may appear that things are going badly for our marriage, that the evidence of the video contradicts our marriage vows, but I can assure you, in the name of Cheezes of Nazareth, our marriage is as strong as it ever was"
PFU, I got something to say to you pal, you're a fool, a god damn arrogant lying fool. What the hell gives you the right to tell ANYONE to doubt their freedom of choice, their right to use their own reasoning skills and search for things that are true and then use their brain to figure out if the facts make sense but instead you tell them to listen to what you say and and then believe all of it? Seriously?
Well then, are you going to tell them the entire truth without any spin or omitting any of the sickening details? Oh wait - you don't think they would want to know these things? Really, you know this because you're a prophet? Are you going to stand in front of the entire world, proclaiming yourself as a prophet, seer, and revelator and then honestly tell everyone you truly believe god commanded a 37 year old man to marry a fourteen year old girl? Then why the hell not? Isn't that the official statement from the organization? Isn't that a fact? Isn't it true? Don't members have the RIGHT to know these facts. Didn't GBH say your history is an open book and you have nothing to hide? Then why not reveal it?
Because you and your organization would be seen as the world's biggest jack ass, that's why, and you know it. And so would any of the other Q15 if they did that. But none of YOU have to make those claims because all of you can hide behind the banter of "Cheezes This" or "Cheezes That" - how convenient . . . and how totally uncreative and completely fake.
Why do you show "investigators" images of JS translating plates with his finger on them instead of showing them JS with his head in a hat, reading from a peep stone he found while digging a well?
And then show them a painting of Quakers on the moon and tell the members and investigators what BY said about interracial couples. Oh, wait - these things don't really matter? See, that's exactly where you are wrong because, yes, oh hell yes they matter because they are facts. If your organization had disclosed these facts in the beginning, I wouldn't have had anything to do with your organization and neither would anyone else and you know it.
PFU, the bottom line is you're a liar, you're a fool and you're scum: your deceitful nature, your immoral tactics of pleading with people, persuading them to trust what you tell them instead of searching for truth, finding facts - facts that you or anyone else cannot change - the truths that even you refuse to defend. You won't defend these things that are diabolically weird, unnatural, and horribly wrong because you know if you had an ounce of honesty in your being you would come clean, you would tell the world it's just a scam that god really did not command JS to marry that girl, those other girls, those women who were already married.
But you won't ever admit that because you, yes you Peter F Uchtdorf are a hypocritical liar because you refuse to state the truth while you persuade others to ignore the truth. I have no respect for you because you and the organization paying for you to promote their agenda are immoral. The great irony is the organization claims every other organization except them is wrong but they continue to deceive so they can maintain control, they continue to take money and time while rewarding with guilt, lies, and false promises.
Due to the plethora of facts readily available, due to members who will "feel the spirit" knowing it's not right for someone to tell them not to trust their own judgment - these people will search the truth and they will find it. Eventually, yes, people will be leaving in droves - this process has already started and the momentum will build and sooner or later, your "great and powerful" organization will crumble, dwindling to nothing. New membership numbers are falling - could it be these "investigators" are doubting the people who tell them to doubt the plethora of damning evidence, to doubt their own reasoning skills? I hope so!
I'm happy to see so many who have had enough common sense to put their faith in themselves, to trust their own minds before trusting men who stand behind an organization founded by a sexual predator, and then the next so-called prophet who slaughtered people, and so forth, and so on until today when these self-proclaimed "men of god" are in the spotlight, skillfully reasoning away from their listeners, one's own right to search, to think, and to decide and Peter, that's just wrong, you're a total ass for doing it and somebody needs to stand up to you and just tell you that.
So there.
I have a feeling the day will come--and perhaps sooner than we think--when those lying bone heads will call a news brief to apologize to the members and PostMos for lying to us and to the world.  There will be tears--for sure--but they will not be for us, the tears will be for themselves.  I don't think they will apologize at all because they are sorry but because they have been dragged to this point--kicking and screaming.  I am thinking the apologizing will be to try to persuade us to not sue them for everything their many corporations own and perhaps they will be worried about being in cells next to Bernie Madoff.  Same game...only they have hurt many of us so much more than Bernie hurt any of his victims.   What they have done to us is not OK and their cookie has started to crumble.   
 


   


Posted: 17 March 2014 07:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
Nephi
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Such a great idea. So inspired.
 
Think I will get a few "I LOVE Mountain Meadows Massacre" t-shirts.
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Posted: 17 March 2014 07:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
Free2Live
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Nephi:
Such a great idea. So inspired.
 
Think I will get a few "I LOVE Mountain Meadows Massacre" t-shirts.
 

 
mr dehlin needs a shirt that says STAY-LDS because MMM isn't such a big deal.
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Kirby: Why I remain a Mormon despite faith’s flaws  
Posted: 13 March 2014 04:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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josephs myth
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Kirby: Why I remain a Mormon despite faith's flaws
 
Besides, it's good to expose kids to church members and leadership that lie continously.
 
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Posted: 13 March 2014 06:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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I've said it before .... lots of church members couldn't care less about crazy church history. There is a "reason" for everything. I never cared. I hardly do now. My husband TOTALLY cares. I just don't. Eventually, the fruits of the evil history reached my life and made me feel like I was taking my kids to a place of multiplication and pain -- so I was OUT. But i still don't really care about the history. Kirby is a good example -- the message to many Mormons should be, are you sure this is a safe place for your family? The rest can be talked away. Maybe even my questions can be prayed and talked away. But this paper is a great example that most Mormons just don't care about the drama and the history. Now, when we can prove people flat out lied, I think that helps convince people, but mostly if just makes them feel persecuted and ready to inherit the earth. Thanks for posting. Very interesting. 

   


Posted: 13 March 2014 08:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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I'm not buying his metaphor with Uchtdorf.  For this to be correct Uchtdorf would have to have remained a Nazi Skin Head despite the Nazi's history.  No one is questioning Kirby's nationality.  They are questioning why he remains in a group that has a poor human rights history, lies to its members and etc etc.  As far as I know no one cares about Uchtdorf's nationality, but they sure as hell would care if he were still a practicing Nazi.
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Posted: 13 March 2014 09:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
ckk
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The issue once again isn't that church history is riddled with problems. The issue is that the problems in church history reveal the church's truth claims to be false. Somehow most still-Mo's don't make that connection. 

   


Posted: 13 March 2014 09:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Robby Sunshine
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I enjoy these lukewarm cultural loligagers in a mischievous sort of way as I think they annoy the tbm zealots more that they annoy apostates. 
 
Kirby's analogy to being a proud German despite that country's well dark historic episodes doesn't quite work. Yes, all nations and culturals have their skeletons in the closet to varying degrees. I get that. As a Canadian, I'm not proud of how my cultural ancestors dealt with Native Americans, but I don't attempt to denounce my citizenship over it. One must ask, however, if being 'Mormon' is something akin to a nationality (like being 'German') or more akin to being a member of the German political party that promoted and facilitated said dark historic episode (I will refrain from naming the party on account of the fact that it has been so badly abused as a mindless hyperbolic slander as to immediately label the invoker a mindless hyperbolic slanderer). Since Kirby started it though, let's consider a few things:
 
1)  I think one would be hard pressed to find a modern German who condones what went on there in the 30s and 40s. Sure there's some on the lunatic fringes, but not in mainstream German society and certainly not amongst respected leaders. Is this the case of for modern Mormons with respect to the LDS skeletons cited by Kirby?
 
2) Did the German dictator claim to be merely a mouthpiece of a perfect and unchanging deity still worshiped by Germans? Are hiiswords still considered canon? If ordered to do so by Angela Merkel (hypothetically), would the German people start rounding up Jews? Is obedience to any commandment still championed despite the historical 'lessons learned'? Funny that Kirby freely admits that many modern Mormons would obey a commandment from the current prophet identical to the one allegedly given by Brigham Young vis a vis Mountain Meadows. Is that healthy?
 
3) 'German' references a distinct land mass, passport, language, and culture. Despite it's domination by Americans, Mormonism proudly declares itself an international, pan cultural movement united by...well...religion, which is ultimately an ideology. Take away the religion and what have you got? Roast beef Sunday dinner? Jello potlucks? Scrub basketball? By and large, they'll revert to the greater cultures they already belong to.
 
No, Kirby, you don't annoy me by staying in the fold. Fact is, I like folks like you who hang around to infect the faithful with your secular-trending views. It's the ones who see no evil in the Church's history that concern me.
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Posted: 13 March 2014 09:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Elder OldDog
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In trying to simply things for myself, I have whittled it down to Bro. Kirby being too lazy to be anything other than what he is comfortable being.  He was 'raised in the faith', joined the army, did a lot of drinking, reformed slightly and went on a mission and met the love of his life while on that mission.  Nothing really "sucked" for Robert Kirby growing up Mormon, so he's got no problem sticking with his version of 'being mormon.'  Even the fact that his RM wife dumped mormonism for another flavor of christianity didn't seem to phase him.  
 
I can forgive him a lot.  If in my mind there is no TRUE church, why should I care if he wants to play churchie-wurchie with people he knows and understands.  He's living with, and presumably loves, an apostate.  Imagine his response if someone in authority tried to tell him to take an action with reference to his, Kirby's, wife that he didn't agree with...  
 
I think Kirby is going along with his program, not the church's program and the fact that there's enough overlap to keep his bishop happy is a fluke.  And there's always the fact that a lot of pressure would be brought to bear to can his ass if Kirby announced his apostacy and still wanted to write funny stories about Utah mormonism.  


   


Posted: 14 March 2014 07:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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True to the Truth
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Elder OldDog:
In trying to simply things for myself, I have whittled it down to Bro. Kirby being too lazy to be anything other than what he is comfortable being.
 
There are so many people who are Mormon (or many other things) for that reason.  It's the default; it's the path of least resistance.
 
And then they say people leave because they're lazy.  There's not much less lazy than the upheaval some are willing to go through to do what is right.
 
tttt


   


Posted: 14 March 2014 09:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
Ur
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Flaws. Flaws in this context are things like coffee Mormons who need their daily cuppa even though WoW says not to. Lying, abusing, defrauding and in some cases murdering are not flaws, they're criminal acts. That Kirby refers to such things as flaws and they don't bother him says an awful lot about his character, or more precisely, his lack thereof. 

   


Posted: 14 March 2014 11:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized
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NoMorKulAde:
I'm not buying his metaphor with Uchtdorf.  For this to be correct Uchtdorf would have to have remained a Nazi Skin Head despite the Nazi's history.  No one is questioning Kirby's nationality.  They are questioning why he remains in a group that has a poor human rights history, lies to its members and etc etc.  As far as I know no one cares about Uchtdorf's nationality, but they sure as hell would care if he were still a practicing Nazi.
 
THIS.   
 
 
 
ETA: Robby Sunshine nailed it as well. I was just so excited after reading NoMorKulAde's post that I responed immediately!
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Posted: 14 March 2014 11:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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Bold Wish
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To me, saying you know the complete facts about the organization's history and then claiming to still having a desire to keep your membership is like saying "Ya, I know there's a turd in the soup but give me a bowl full anyway.
 
 
 
I seriously, really just don't get it.
 
Maybe Kirby wants some oyster crackers with his soup?
 
 
 
 
 
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When I discovered the truth and realized the organization was lying to me, that they had always been lying to me, I felt a sting of betrayal, the humiliation from an organization who profits abundantly by violating trust.  I knew that no matter what would come of it, I could no longer remain associated with the organization in any way.  Since leaving, I’ve enjoyed thinking on my own, guilt is almost a foreign concept, and being in control of my life is incredibly satisfying.


   


Posted: 14 March 2014 12:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
blueazure
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Wow, Kirby, thanks for the lesson on church history. Of course (pardon the rampant sarcasm, it's been a long week) *everything* in the church TODAY is just *fine*. The only gripes anyone has are over the *history*. It has nothing to do with the fact that, today, the church still: assumes prophets are infallible and members have to go along with them, despite throwing past prophets under the bus over and over; is institutionally racist, sexist, and homophobic; is dishonest about its past ("even" the Germans get that those who forget their past are doomed to repeat it, which is why they talk about the Holocaust so much); continues to hang their hat on the history; continues to harm families and relationships with crappy doctrine; continues to extract money, etc, etc, etc, etc. I like Bold Wish's comment: I feel like Kirby is saying "yeah, there *used* to be a turd in the soup but that was a long time ago". It's like, "nah, bro, THERE STILL IS!!!!!!" 

   


Posted: 14 March 2014 12:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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evil_archer
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True to the Truth:
Elder OldDog:
In trying to simply things for myself, I have whittled it down to Bro. Kirby being too lazy to be anything other than what he is comfortable being.
 
There are so many people who are Mormon (or many other things) for that reason.  It's the default; it's the path of least resistance.
 
And then they say people leave because they're lazy.  There's not much less lazy than the upheaval some are willing to go through to do what is right.
 
tttt
 
 That's true, and I would even include Jack Mormons in that as well, who quit going to church, but will defend it like a TBM if they think someone is criticizing it. They were raised in it, so for them, it is their culture.
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Posted: 14 March 2014 01:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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kinderhooker
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Even if the turd is not in this soup any longer, I still want a fresh-made pot of soup! This batch is tainted! The pot needs to be cleansed and renamed. I sign need to be hung, saying "under new management".
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“And the Lord said: I will prepare unto my servant Gazelem, a stone, which shall shine forth in darkness unto light, that I may discover unto my people who serve me, that I may discover unto them the works of their brethren, yea, their secret works, their works of darkness, and their wickedness and abominations.” Alma 37:3


   


Posted: 14 March 2014 10:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
zenzombie
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I think this is a very complex issue. Laziness is just a word that means not wanting to take action. The question is why does someone not want to take action? I think subconcious fear and shame are significant factors. Admitting that you have been deceived by others, and more importantly, by yourself can be almost impossible to do, especially while immersed in a believing community of friends and family. It's almost as if the brain knows what would come as a result and so it won't allow the thoughts to surface. 

   


Posted: 15 March 2014 07:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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Kori
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Honestly I think Kirby is great. He's found his niche, as the irreverant cafeteria Mormon who sits in the back of the class and throws spit wads at all the self righteous pompous assholes who populate the leadership. He's made a living and a reputation doing so. Giving that up would be like Jon Stewart giving up being Jewish, or Stephen Colbert giving up being Catholic. It's who they are.
How the hell do you give up being who you are?
To a certain extent it's who we are too, which is probably why we have taken on "Post Mormon" and Atheist identities. It's not like we can just completely escape who we are by resigning or being excommunicated. We have to have some form of an identity, some kind of community, so we continue to associate with others, like us, who were once Mormons, and as a result are now really skeptical about any kind of 'truth' claims as a result.
 
I think Einstein made a great observation about human nature when he said,
-
“The fanatical atheists are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who—in their grudge against traditional religion as the "opium of the masses"—cannot hear the music of the spheres.”― Albert Einstein
I'm dating a very liberal, Lutheran right now and I'm amazed at the difference between us. She's an English teacher and pretty propper.  Many of my friends on FB are Post Mormons. She gets it because some of her family is Mormon, but my PoMo friends make up a pretty irreverant group, that doesn't hesitate to make sexual comments about us or drop F bombs on FB, which can make things kind of awkward and I've had to tell some of my PoMo friends to tone it down a notch or two, at least on FB, where her kids and students can see every comment they make.  
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Kirby: Why I remain a Mormon despite faith’s flaws  
Posted: 13 March 2014 04:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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josephs myth
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Kirby: Why I remain a Mormon despite faith's flaws
 
Besides, it's good to expose kids to church members and leadership that lie continously.
 
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Posted: 13 March 2014 06:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
fled Utah
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I've said it before .... lots of church members couldn't care less about crazy church history. There is a "reason" for everything. I never cared. I hardly do now. My husband TOTALLY cares. I just don't. Eventually, the fruits of the evil history reached my life and made me feel like I was taking my kids to a place of multiplication and pain -- so I was OUT. But i still don't really care about the history. Kirby is a good example -- the message to many Mormons should be, are you sure this is a safe place for your family? The rest can be talked away. Maybe even my questions can be prayed and talked away. But this paper is a great example that most Mormons just don't care about the drama and the history. Now, when we can prove people flat out lied, I think that helps convince people, but mostly if just makes them feel persecuted and ready to inherit the earth. Thanks for posting. Very interesting. 

   


Posted: 13 March 2014 08:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
NoMorKulAde
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I'm not buying his metaphor with Uchtdorf.  For this to be correct Uchtdorf would have to have remained a Nazi Skin Head despite the Nazi's history.  No one is questioning Kirby's nationality.  They are questioning why he remains in a group that has a poor human rights history, lies to its members and etc etc.  As far as I know no one cares about Uchtdorf's nationality, but they sure as hell would care if he were still a practicing Nazi.
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Posted: 13 March 2014 09:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
ckk
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The issue once again isn't that church history is riddled with problems. The issue is that the problems in church history reveal the church's truth claims to be false. Somehow most still-Mo's don't make that connection. 

   


Posted: 13 March 2014 09:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Robby Sunshine
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I enjoy these lukewarm cultural loligagers in a mischievous sort of way as I think they annoy the tbm zealots more that they annoy apostates. 
 
Kirby's analogy to being a proud German despite that country's well dark historic episodes doesn't quite work. Yes, all nations and culturals have their skeletons in the closet to varying degrees. I get that. As a Canadian, I'm not proud of how my cultural ancestors dealt with Native Americans, but I don't attempt to denounce my citizenship over it. One must ask, however, if being 'Mormon' is something akin to a nationality (like being 'German') or more akin to being a member of the German political party that promoted and facilitated said dark historic episode (I will refrain from naming the party on account of the fact that it has been so badly abused as a mindless hyperbolic slander as to immediately label the invoker a mindless hyperbolic slanderer). Since Kirby started it though, let's consider a few things:
 
1)  I think one would be hard pressed to find a modern German who condones what went on there in the 30s and 40s. Sure there's some on the lunatic fringes, but not in mainstream German society and certainly not amongst respected leaders. Is this the case of for modern Mormons with respect to the LDS skeletons cited by Kirby?
 
2) Did the German dictator claim to be merely a mouthpiece of a perfect and unchanging deity still worshiped by Germans? Are hiiswords still considered canon? If ordered to do so by Angela Merkel (hypothetically), would the German people start rounding up Jews? Is obedience to any commandment still championed despite the historical 'lessons learned'? Funny that Kirby freely admits that many modern Mormons would obey a commandment from the current prophet identical to the one allegedly given by Brigham Young vis a vis Mountain Meadows. Is that healthy?
 
3) 'German' references a distinct land mass, passport, language, and culture. Despite it's domination by Americans, Mormonism proudly declares itself an international, pan cultural movement united by...well...religion, which is ultimately an ideology. Take away the religion and what have you got? Roast beef Sunday dinner? Jello potlucks? Scrub basketball? By and large, they'll revert to the greater cultures they already belong to.
 
No, Kirby, you don't annoy me by staying in the fold. Fact is, I like folks like you who hang around to infect the faithful with your secular-trending views. It's the ones who see no evil in the Church's history that concern me.
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“Now Korihor said unto him: I do not deny the existence of a God, but I do not believe that there is a God; and I also say, that ye do not know that there is a God” (Alma 30:48)


   


Posted: 13 March 2014 09:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Elder OldDog
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In trying to simply things for myself, I have whittled it down to Bro. Kirby being too lazy to be anything other than what he is comfortable being.  He was 'raised in the faith', joined the army, did a lot of drinking, reformed slightly and went on a mission and met the love of his life while on that mission.  Nothing really "sucked" for Robert Kirby growing up Mormon, so he's got no problem sticking with his version of 'being mormon.'  Even the fact that his RM wife dumped mormonism for another flavor of christianity didn't seem to phase him.  
 
I can forgive him a lot.  If in my mind there is no TRUE church, why should I care if he wants to play churchie-wurchie with people he knows and understands.  He's living with, and presumably loves, an apostate.  Imagine his response if someone in authority tried to tell him to take an action with reference to his, Kirby's, wife that he didn't agree with...  
 
I think Kirby is going along with his program, not the church's program and the fact that there's enough overlap to keep his bishop happy is a fluke.  And there's always the fact that a lot of pressure would be brought to bear to can his ass if Kirby announced his apostacy and still wanted to write funny stories about Utah mormonism.  


   


Posted: 14 March 2014 07:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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True to the Truth
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Elder OldDog:
In trying to simply things for myself, I have whittled it down to Bro. Kirby being too lazy to be anything other than what he is comfortable being.
 
There are so many people who are Mormon (or many other things) for that reason.  It's the default; it's the path of least resistance.
 
And then they say people leave because they're lazy.  There's not much less lazy than the upheaval some are willing to go through to do what is right.
 
tttt


   


Posted: 14 March 2014 09:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
Ur
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Flaws. Flaws in this context are things like coffee Mormons who need their daily cuppa even though WoW says not to. Lying, abusing, defrauding and in some cases murdering are not flaws, they're criminal acts. That Kirby refers to such things as flaws and they don't bother him says an awful lot about his character, or more precisely, his lack thereof. 

   


Posted: 14 March 2014 11:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized
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NoMorKulAde:
I'm not buying his metaphor with Uchtdorf.  For this to be correct Uchtdorf would have to have remained a Nazi Skin Head despite the Nazi's history.  No one is questioning Kirby's nationality.  They are questioning why he remains in a group that has a poor human rights history, lies to its members and etc etc.  As far as I know no one cares about Uchtdorf's nationality, but they sure as hell would care if he were still a practicing Nazi.
 
THIS.   
 
 
 
ETA: Robby Sunshine nailed it as well. I was just so excited after reading NoMorKulAde's post that I responed immediately!
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We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler


   


Posted: 14 March 2014 11:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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Bold Wish
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To me, saying you know the complete facts about the organization's history and then claiming to still having a desire to keep your membership is like saying "Ya, I know there's a turd in the soup but give me a bowl full anyway.
 
 
 
I seriously, really just don't get it.
 
Maybe Kirby wants some oyster crackers with his soup?
 
 
 
 
 
 Signature
When I discovered the truth and realized the organization was lying to me, that they had always been lying to me, I felt a sting of betrayal, the humiliation from an organization who profits abundantly by violating trust.  I knew that no matter what would come of it, I could no longer remain associated with the organization in any way.  Since leaving, I’ve enjoyed thinking on my own, guilt is almost a foreign concept, and being in control of my life is incredibly satisfying.


   


Posted: 14 March 2014 12:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
blueazure
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Wow, Kirby, thanks for the lesson on church history. Of course (pardon the rampant sarcasm, it's been a long week) *everything* in the church TODAY is just *fine*. The only gripes anyone has are over the *history*. It has nothing to do with the fact that, today, the church still: assumes prophets are infallible and members have to go along with them, despite throwing past prophets under the bus over and over; is institutionally racist, sexist, and homophobic; is dishonest about its past ("even" the Germans get that those who forget their past are doomed to repeat it, which is why they talk about the Holocaust so much); continues to hang their hat on the history; continues to harm families and relationships with crappy doctrine; continues to extract money, etc, etc, etc, etc. I like Bold Wish's comment: I feel like Kirby is saying "yeah, there *used* to be a turd in the soup but that was a long time ago". It's like, "nah, bro, THERE STILL IS!!!!!!" 

   


Posted: 14 March 2014 12:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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evil_archer
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True to the Truth:
Elder OldDog:
In trying to simply things for myself, I have whittled it down to Bro. Kirby being too lazy to be anything other than what he is comfortable being.
 
There are so many people who are Mormon (or many other things) for that reason.  It's the default; it's the path of least resistance.
 
And then they say people leave because they're lazy.  There's not much less lazy than the upheaval some are willing to go through to do what is right.
 
tttt
 
 That's true, and I would even include Jack Mormons in that as well, who quit going to church, but will defend it like a TBM if they think someone is criticizing it. They were raised in it, so for them, it is their culture.
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Posted: 14 March 2014 01:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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kinderhooker
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Even if the turd is not in this soup any longer, I still want a fresh-made pot of soup! This batch is tainted! The pot needs to be cleansed and renamed. I sign need to be hung, saying "under new management".
 Signature
“And the Lord said: I will prepare unto my servant Gazelem, a stone, which shall shine forth in darkness unto light, that I may discover unto my people who serve me, that I may discover unto them the works of their brethren, yea, their secret works, their works of darkness, and their wickedness and abominations.” Alma 37:3


   


Posted: 14 March 2014 10:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
zenzombie
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I think this is a very complex issue. Laziness is just a word that means not wanting to take action. The question is why does someone not want to take action? I think subconcious fear and shame are significant factors. Admitting that you have been deceived by others, and more importantly, by yourself can be almost impossible to do, especially while immersed in a believing community of friends and family. It's almost as if the brain knows what would come as a result and so it won't allow the thoughts to surface. 

   


Posted: 15 March 2014 07:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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Kori
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Honestly I think Kirby is great. He's found his niche, as the irreverant cafeteria Mormon who sits in the back of the class and throws spit wads at all the self righteous pompous assholes who populate the leadership. He's made a living and a reputation doing so. Giving that up would be like Jon Stewart giving up being Jewish, or Stephen Colbert giving up being Catholic. It's who they are.
How the hell do you give up being who you are?
To a certain extent it's who we are too, which is probably why we have taken on "Post Mormon" and Atheist identities. It's not like we can just completely escape who we are by resigning or being excommunicated. We have to have some form of an identity, some kind of community, so we continue to associate with others, like us, who were once Mormons, and as a result are now really skeptical about any kind of 'truth' claims as a result.
 
I think Einstein made a great observation about human nature when he said,
-
“The fanatical atheists are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who—in their grudge against traditional religion as the "opium of the masses"—cannot hear the music of the spheres.”― Albert Einstein
I'm dating a very liberal, Lutheran right now and I'm amazed at the difference between us. She's an English teacher and pretty propper.  Many of my friends on FB are Post Mormons. She gets it because some of her family is Mormon, but my PoMo friends make up a pretty irreverant group, that doesn't hesitate to make sexual comments about us or drop F bombs on FB, which can make things kind of awkward and I've had to tell some of my PoMo friends to tone it down a notch or two, at least on FB, where her kids and students can see every comment they make.  
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The Book of Mormon Set To Play At Utah Theater  
Posted: 11 March 2014 12:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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josephs myth
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  Here it comes!
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 Satirical musical 'The Book of Mormon' set to play Utah theater
 
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Posted: 11 March 2014 12:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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I wonder how many people will go incognito, or with bags over their heads...
 
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We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler


   


Posted: 11 March 2014 01:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
former victim
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Or the moustaches and wigs....I knew a retired judge up in Caribou County who would wear a moustache and Harpo Marx type glasses just to go out for a drink at the Stockman's. 

   


Posted: 11 March 2014 02:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Itinerant
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I saw the musical in Durham a few weeks ago with my postmo, RM auntie.  We were both crying with laughter.  Don't miss it!  I should add that I was a mormon missionary boy in Durham in '85.  Rich irony!
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Why do I think reading is important? It is such an effective medium between mind and mind. We think largely in words. A medium made only of words doesn’t impose the barrier of any other medium. It is naked and unprotected communication. That’s how you get pregnant. May you always be so. – Roger Ebert
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"Katie Finds a Better Way": A Story for the "Friend" and Musicalkate (New Link)
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Couldn't a real prophet find that plane?
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OCTOBER CONFERENCE
"Past, Present, and Possibilities"
Oct. 18-20, 2013




















 


Financial Report for 2011 to Date

Financial Report for 2010 to Date

Financial Report for 2009

Twin Falls Newspaper Article

Twin Falls Billboard

Financial Report for 2009 to Date




The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]

Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]

Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]



Portland Oregon meetup
[Portland Post-Mor...] 
Las Vegas March Meetup! Sunday 16th 1pm
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
[Palmetto Post-Mor...] 
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March Get Together
[Idaho Falls Post-...] 
San Diego lunch this Sunday at noon!
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March 2nd 2014-Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series
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onendagus

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Book of Mormon Tories
by Tom Donofrio 
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Ongoing Monthly Gatherings!
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Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
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Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
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Resignation Letter to My Family
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Resignation Letter to My Family
Waveoftruth

Resignation Letter to My Family
In search of Truth

Carolina PostMo Night: “The Master"
Swearing Elder

Washington D.C. Post-Mormon Lunch - August 28
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Resignation Letter to My Family
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Financial Report for 2011 to Date
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Resignation Letter to My Family
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Katie finds a way to tolerate her evil apostate family  
Posted: 07 March 2014 06:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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True to the Truth
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The oh-so-charming Elder Uchtdorf said in a recent conference talk that it's a mistake to think that all those who leave the church do so becuase they were lazy, or wanted to sin, or were offended.  Nice of him to correct those wayward members who got that wrong idea - I wonder where such a thought might have come from?
 
Perhaps he could have a little chat with his friends at The Friend.  Their current issue has a lovely article entitled "Katie Finds a Way."  It's the heart-warming tale of a girl who manages to go to church despite her less than wholesome family that has stopped attending.
 
The story starts with Katie waking up, and then in short order we meet her sister:
“Katie, turn the light off. I’m trying to sleep!” Katie’s sister mumbled, pulling the covers over her head.
Lazy: check
 
And then off to the kitchen, where...
Her mom stood at the counter in a bathrobe, pouring herself a cup of coffee.
Wants to sin: check
 
Dad, who both has coffee and plans to watch some football, is kind of a sin/lazy combination.  I was disappointed with that: he could have mentioned being offended and they would have scored the trifecta.
 
Then Katie's off to church, thanks to her kind teacher Sister Chang.  There she sits reverently, thinking about how she doesnt feel the "peaceful feeling" anywhere else (i.e. not at home).  In fact, the story started off with her thinking "her house felt different" since her parents stopped attending.
 
When she gets back, we see her love for her family - she even says a prayer that they can feel what she does in church.  Even though they don't deserve the kindness...
As Katie walked inside after being dropped off, she saw her family watching TV, talking on the phone, and cleaning the house.
...they get the pity:
She loved them no matter what.
Got that?  She loves them anyway!  How nice to be loved anyway!
 
 
As a hit piece, it's very well done.  We're never directly told that her family are bad people.  In fact Mom with her coffee is downright cheerful about Sister Chang coming to bring Katie to church.  Her sister is merely tired, entirely excusable.  And it's not like there's anything wrong with watching TV, cleaning the house, or talking on the phone.  We are just conditioned to understand that these aren't the things that good people do on the Sabbath.
 
Katie is such a good little girl, and Sister Chang is magnifying her calling as her teacher.  This is a story about good feelings; she feels the spirit in church, and it's so nice and peaceful.  That juxtaposition to the noisy home she returns to never goes right out and says that the feeling there is just the opposite of nice and peaceful.  But it doesn't need to.  Even the children who get the stories of The Friend read to them know how to listen between the lines.
 
Elder Uchtdorf is such a nice urbane apostle, who is so kind to those who are less active.  He pleads with the members to give them a little understanding.  And everyone knows what he means between the lines.
 
And he loves us anyway.
 
tttt


   


Posted: 07 March 2014 07:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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gone.
 
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“And the Lord said: I will prepare unto my servant Gazelem, a stone, which shall shine forth in darkness unto light, that I may discover unto my people who serve me, that I may discover unto them the works of their brethren, yea, their secret works, their works of darkness, and their wickedness and abominations.” Alma 37:3


   


Posted: 07 March 2014 08:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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In the TSCC, it's not a question of getting better, it's just a question of getting better than someone else!  
 


   


Posted: 08 March 2014 01:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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how is this my life
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This one needs to be archived.  One of my favorites.  Bravo, tttt. 
 
 
If Katie were really that righteous, would she be showing up to primary drunk?  Look at the tell tale pink nose.  I mean, really!


   


Posted: 08 March 2014 03:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Bold Wish
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True to the Truth:

 
Then Katie's off to church, thanks to her kind teacher Sister Chang.  There she sits reverently, thinking about how she doesnt feel the "peaceful feeling" anywhere else (i.e. not at home).  In fact, the story started off with her thinking "her house felt different" since her parents stopped attending.
 
. . .   This is a story about good feelings; she feels the spirit in church, and it's so nice and peaceful.  That juxtaposition to the noisy home she returns to never goes right out and says that the feeling there is just the opposite of nice and peaceful. 
 

Feelings
 
Like the "feeling" the member of the stake presidency had to pull over and help out that guy who then pulled a gun, forced him in the trunk and shot him?
 
Feelings
 
Like the "in-sper-a-shun" telling my wife she should pay tithing instead of buying food for our kids, or paying for the rent, car payment, insurance, and so forth and eventually we filed bankruptcy.  Twice.  But were never late or "short" with tithing and other donations.
 
Feelings
 
Like the "feeling" my friend had to spend many hours working in the temple, away from his wife and family during that last year of his life before the brain aneurysm put him in a coma.
 
Feelings
 
Like the "feeling" the bishop and his counselors were given when they pronounced my friend with the brain aneurysm would make a full recovery and then the feelings I had of hate for the guy who pronounced the "blessing" when my friend died the next day.
 
Feelings
 
Like the feeling that it's not right for me, or anyone else, to pretend to believe in something I know isn't real so I have enough feelings (in the form of self respect) to separate myself from the deceitful organization and pick up the pieces of my pre-organization adult life and enjoy what it's like to have control over my own thoughts and actions, the beautiful empowerment that comes from using my own unlimited investigation and reasoning skills to determine whether or not if it's okay to believe that a 37 year old man wasn't really commanded by god to marry that fourteen year old girl and that people who go along with the thousands of similary ridiculos stories are simply DELUSIONAL because they are warned against using their own powers of natural discernment, and I have FEELINGS of immense gratitude because I had enough sense to search the truth, and when I found the facts (which nobody can deny - ha) I had enough FEELINGS to confirm, with zero doubt, many times over, that I know the organization was a total crock of shit.
 
 
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When I discovered the truth and realized the organization was lying to me, that they had always been lying to me, I felt a sting of betrayal, the humiliation from an organization who profits abundantly by violating trust.  I knew that no matter what would come of it, I could no longer remain associated with the organization in any way.  Since leaving, I’ve enjoyed thinking on my own, guilt is almost a foreign concept, and being in control of my life is incredibly satisfying.


   


Posted: 08 March 2014 08:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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This article is disturbing because it is directed at children.  It is manipulative, and attempts to breaks the child's bond to their parents and family and attach a bond to the church and those who help them attend their meetings.  She is being taught the church is more peaceful and wonderful than home and family.  It is an abusive and disgraceful tactic to use in order to influence a child.  
 
This is why I there is never a good reason to get excited when  Uchtdorf, the designated "good cop," says things we want to hear.  It's all for the ears of those who still have hope the church is true or will change.  It's just a show folks.  He doesn't mean any of it.  It is to appease those who will be appeased.  It's part of his job, it's why he was hired.  The church doesn't give a shit about the members, period.  The church only cares about the money and energy they can suck out of people, period. 
 
On contrast, my daughter told her daughter's primary teacher she would call the police if she came to offer to take her to church one more time.  Awesome kid I have. 
 
   
 


   


Posted: 08 March 2014 09:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Silver Girl
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I'm feeling the urge to rewrite the story from an "apostates" point of view, and how creepy it is that the church encourages members to contact children directly when their families have made a clear choice that church is not where they want to be.
 
Another great story would be one where the apostates love the children whose families still go to church so much, that they are constantly dropping by the primary to offer rides to the children who'd appreciate the atmosphere at the local amusement park better than the one at church during the 3rd hour   Oh, that's inappropriate?
 
SG


   


Posted: 08 March 2014 09:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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Aleut
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howdimissthat:
 
This article is disturbing because it is directed at children.  It is manipulative, and attempts to breaks the child's bond to their parents and family and attach a bond to the church and those who help them attend their meetings.  She is being taught the church is more peaceful and wonderful than home and family.  It is an abusive and disgraceful tactic to use in order to influence a child.  
 
This is why I there is never a good reason to get excited when  Uchtdorf, the designated "good cop," says things we want to hear.  It's all for the ears of those who still have hope the church is true or will change.  It's just a show folks.  He doesn't mean any of it.  It is to appease those who will be appeased.  It's part of his job, it's why he was hired.  The church doesn't give a shit about the members, period.  The church only cares about the money and energy they can suck out of people, period. 
 
On contrast, my daughter told her daughter's primary teacher she would call the police if she came to offer to take her to church one more time.  Awesome kid I have. 
 
   
 
  I agree.  I couldn't have said it better myself.  We all know individual members that are kind and are truly caring.  But at the corporate level, the church only cares about the bottom line and views the members as assets that can provide free labor and money.
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Posted: 08 March 2014 10:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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Elder OldDog
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howdimissthat:
 
This article is disturbing because it is directed at children.  It is manipulative, and attempts to breaks the child's bond to their parents and family and attach a bond to the church and those who help them attend their meetings.  She is being taught the church is more peaceful and wonderful than home and family.  It is an abusive and disgraceful tactic to use in order to influence a child.  
 
This is why I there is never a good reason to get excited when  Uchtdorf, the designated "good cop," says things we want to hear.  It's all for the ears of those who still have hope the church is true or will change.  It's just a show folks.  He doesn't mean any of it.  It is to appease those who will be appeased.  It's part of his job, it's why he was hired.  The church doesn't give a shit about the members, period.  The church only cares about the money and energy they can suck out of people, period. 
 
On contrast, my daughter told her daughter's primary teacher she would call the police if she came to offer to take her to church one more time.  Awesome kid I have. 
 
   
 
 
Every time you print or say 'shit', Tommy Monson hiccups.  And I giggle...  Thank you.


   


Posted: 08 March 2014 11:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
danboyle2
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howdimissthat:
 
This article is disturbing because it is directed at children.  It is manipulative, and attempts to breaks the child's bond to their parents and family and attach a bond to the church and those who help them attend their meetings.  She is being taught the church is more peaceful and wonderful than home and family.  It is an abusive and disgraceful tactic to use in order to influence a child.  
 
This is why I there is never a good reason to get excited when  Uchtdorf, the designated "good cop," says things we want to hear.  It's all for the ears of those who still have hope the church is true or will change.  It's just a show folks.  He doesn't mean any of it.  It is to appease those who will be appeased.  It's part of his job, it's why he was hired.  The church doesn't give a shit about the members, period.  The church only cares about the money and energy they can suck out of people, period. 
 
On contrast, my daughter told her daughter's primary teacher she would call the police if she came to offer to take her to church one more time.  Awesome kid I have. 
 
   
 
 
100000% correct. Just like the missionary program, separate the child from friends and family and lock in those church ties. It is actually quite evil, imho.....
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Posted: 08 March 2014 02:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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howdimissthat:
This article is disturbing because it is directed at children.  It is manipulative, and attempts to breaks the child's bond to their parents and family and attach a bond to the church and those who help them attend their meetings.
 
That's just it right there, isn't it?  Mom and dad are the bad guys here, and Sister Chang is the good guy.  Church is important, and family is not.  Your parents are only good as long as they're taking you to church.
 
It's so horrid, and made out to be so innocent.
 
tttt


   


Posted: 08 March 2014 02:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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True to the Truth:
howdimissthat:
This article is disturbing because it is directed at children.  It is manipulative, and attempts to breaks the child's bond to their parents and family and attach a bond to the church and those who help them attend their meetings.
 
That's just it right there, isn't it?  Mom and dad are the bad guys here, and Sister Chang is the good guy.  Church is important, and family is not.  Your parents are only good as long as they're taking you to church.
 
It's so horrid, and made out to be so innocent.
 
tttt
Several years after my wife and I had slipped into inactivity, our then 14-year-old son kept getting phone calls and house calls from the YM's president or the Teacher's Quorum teacher (I don't remember which).  Being quite social, our son went to a few activities, became interested in the church, began attending and was ordained an Aaronic Priesthood Teacher.  At the time I still believed, so I wasn't concerned with his decision to go to church.
 
After some time he seemed to have lost his zeal for the church and eventually quit going altogether.  In time I asked him why he no longer wanted to participate in YM’s activities or attend Sunday services.  [  ] He replied that some members said his mother and I were bad parents because of our inactivity.  Infuriated, he told our detractors that we were good parents and without getting to know us, they had no clue about his family.  He never went to church again.
 
I was/am so proud of him.  He had stood up for me and his mother and didn’t allow church members to drive a wedge into our family.
 
[  ] I agree.  Painting inactive or non-member family members as bad in an effort to bolster the church’s value in the eyes of a child is execrable.
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Posted: 08 March 2014 02:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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True to the Truth:
howdimissthat:
This article is disturbing because it is directed at children.  It is manipulative, and attempts to breaks the child's bond to their parents and family and attach a bond to the church and those who help them attend their meetings.
 
That's just it right there, isn't it?  Mom and dad are the bad guys here, and Sister Chang is the good guy.  Church is important, and family is not.  Your parents are only good as long as they're taking you to church.
 
It's so horrid, and made out to be so innocent.
 
tttt
 
Actually, I think Sister Chang is the token Asian. "Look! We're a culturally diverse church!"
 
To make her the good guy in this story is simply gratuitous. 
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Posted: 08 March 2014 04:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
SuziQ
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howdimissthat:
 
This article is disturbing because it is directed at children.  It is manipulative, and attempts to breaks the child's bond to their parents and family and attach a bond to the church and those who help them attend their meetings.  She is being taught the church is more peaceful and wonderful than home and family.  It is an abusive and disgraceful tactic to use in order to influence a child.  
 
This is why I there is never a good reason to get excited when  Uchtdorf, the designated "good cop," says things we want to hear.  It's all for the ears of those who still have hope the church is true or will change.  It's just a show folks.  He doesn't mean any of it.  It is to appease those who will be appeased.  It's part of his job, it's why he was hired.  The church doesn't give a shit about the members, period.  The church only cares about the money and energy they can suck out of people, period. 
 
On contrast, my daughter told her daughter's primary teacher she would call the police if she came to offer to take her to church one more time.  Awesome kid I have. 
 
   
 
 
 Exactly what she said!  This article makes me furious.    There is so much in the church that can make kids feel bad about themselves and their families.
 
I used to watch the looks on the faces of Primary kids when they had to attend activities without their parents.  Whether it was kids whose parents were divorced or those who had inactive or non-member parents.   Daddy-Daughter dances, Mother-Son activities, father son camp outs,  sacrament meetings on mother's day or father's day were unkind and cruel experiences for these kids.  
 
It bothered me even when I was TBM.  I can't think of a single other church that causes little kids to feel less than others.  Any church should be there to build people up, especially children.  TSCC  really is a crappy, self serving organizetion.
 


   


Posted: 08 March 2014 05:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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This is so disturbing--thanks for the heads up, because I know my grandchildren see this sh*t and picture their Nana at the cabin in a housecoat, drinking a cup of coffee. It is just another lesson for innocent children on how some people are better than, some less than! Back in the day, way back, my husband grew up in a part-member family. Fortunately, he had a wise, kind bishop who encouraged him to skip church occasionally and do things with his Dad on Sunday instead. Boy, those days are long gone.  The church is playing dirtier by the week now.
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Posted: 09 March 2014 07:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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Katie and The Free Candy Van.
 
 
I don't go to church. My wife does on occasion and I support her when she gets the hankering to go. I get up early on Sunday and make breakfast for the family. When that's out of the way,  I drink coffee and watch football or Baseball or whatever suits my fancy for a couple hours. Then, I review the status of my small business and work on projects that need completion. Sometimes for a break, I play video games for a bit (major Sunday sin) or read a non-church book. Lunch time rolls around and I make sandwiches for the chirping kids.
 
Sunday night rolls around and I either make dinner (If my wife has decided to go that week at the gawd awful time block of 1-4) or I help her make it. We have dinner together, laugh, bond, and if I'm lucky, get watch the newest Walking Dead. After that, we verify that any upcoming homework is correct and completed. Around 9:00 pm, my wife and I assemble the kid's lunches for school the next day, have our "together" talking time and eventually go to sleep.
 
When Sunday is over I get up at 5:30 and most-times gladly work 60-70 hours a week to provide for a family of six. After work I come home and help my Autistic son do 1 hour of homework (which takes us 3 hours due to his condition). Around 8:30 at night, I read bed time stories to the youngest two (nothing "anti"), put them to bed and kiss them goodnight while my wife makes sure the oldest two have their homework done. At ten, I make sure the oldest start to dial down and are off the XBOX and that they get to bed.
 
I love my kids, provide for them and sometimes go without the stuff I want so that they and my wife can enjoy life. I do it for the smiles and the hugs. I also respect and have love for a gay family member and as a result have a respect and love for those in the gay community. I work with a gay client and he's cool and we're friends.
 
So...poor little Katie could have it a lot worse with me for a dad. Long story short...I don't go to church, so I'm a bad dad.
 
Anyway...last night (Saturday) my autistic kid announced with dedication that he HAD to go to church on Sunday. When I politely asked why, he replied...
 
"My friend X said that if we came to church, they'd give us a cinnamon roll!"
 
How many "Katies" get bribed every week with Pavlonian motivating cinnamon rolls, candy, outings, etc. to "do the right thing?" Reminds me of this approach a bit too much (image)...
 
Little Katie is in for a rude wake up call when reality catches up with her. Those cinnamon rolls with fish hooks slowly morph into Guilt and Fear bars over time which taste like shit but ones you can't stop eating. Pretty soon, the shit candy doesn't taste like shit anymore, but it definitely leaves a stink on you.
 
Hopefully little Katie realizes that The Free Candy Van is often disguised as The Right Thing Van and doesn't get inside it. 
 
 
Free Candy Van 
 
  
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Posted: 09 March 2014 10:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
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Maybe she'll start a local branch of the "Not Even Once Club!"
 
They are unconsciounable. They'll stop at nothing. 
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Posted: 09 March 2014 11:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
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seeking peace
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baneberry:
Maybe she'll start a local branch of the "Not Even Once Club!"
 
They are unconsciounable. They'll stop at nothing. 
 
 Unconsciounable--such an appropriate word!! And this is from the Cult of the Eternal Family!
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Posted: 10 March 2014 01:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
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So many good responses here in this thread!  God I wish I could get my wife to read it.
 
 


   


Posted: 11 March 2014 08:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]   

   
 
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Dogzilla Joy
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Elder Skelter:
Katie and The Free Candy Van.
 
 
I don't go to church. My wife does on occasion and I support her when she gets the hankering to go. I get up early on Sunday and make breakfast for the family. When that's out of the way,  I drink coffee and watch football or Baseball or whatever suits my fancy for a couple hours. Then, I review the status of my small business and work on projects that need completion. Sometimes for a break, I play video games for a bit (major Sunday sin) or read a non-church book. Lunch time rolls around and I make sandwiches for the chirping kids.
 
Sunday night rolls around and I either make dinner (If my wife has decided to go that week at the gawd awful time block of 1-4) or I help her make it. We have dinner together, laugh, bond, and if I'm lucky, get watch the newest Walking Dead. After that, we verify that any upcoming homework is correct and completed. Around 9:00 pm, my wife and I assemble the kid's lunches for school the next day, have our "together" talking time and eventually go to sleep.
 
When Sunday is over I get up at 5:30 and most-times gladly work 60-70 hours a week to provide for a family of six. After work I come home and help my Autistic son do 1 hour of homework (which takes us 3 hours due to his condition). Around 8:30 at night, I read bed time stories to the youngest two (nothing "anti"), put them to bed and kiss them goodnight while my wife makes sure the oldest two have their homework done. At ten, I make sure the oldest start to dial down and are off the XBOX and that they get to bed.
 
I love my kids, provide for them and sometimes go without the stuff I want so that they and my wife can enjoy life. I do it for the smiles and the hugs. I also respect and have love for a gay family member and as a result have a respect and love for those in the gay community. I work with a gay client and he's cool and we're friends.
 
So...poor little Katie could have it a lot worse with me for a dad. Long story short...I don't go to church, so I'm a bad dad.
 
Anyway...last night (Saturday) my autistic kid announced with dedication that he HAD to go to church on Sunday. When I politely asked why, he replied...
 
"My friend X said that if we came to church, they'd give us a cinnamon roll!"
 
How many "Katies" get bribed every week with Pavlonian motivating cinnamon rolls, candy, outings, etc. to "do the right thing?" Reminds me of this approach a bit too much (image)...
 
Little Katie is in for a rude wake up call when reality catches up with her. Those cinnamon rolls with fish hooks slowly morph into Guilt and Fear bars over time which taste like shit but ones you can't stop eating. Pretty soon, the shit candy doesn't taste like shit anymore, but it definitely leaves a stink on you.
 
Hopefully little Katie realizes that The Free Candy Van is often disguised as The Right Thing Van and doesn't get inside it. 
 
 
Free Candy Van 
 
  
 
 The rep from Costco stopped by my office yesterday to drop off a brochure. He said if we let him come back (and give us a sales pitch to join), he would bring muffins. 
 
I say bribery works. If Dude brings me a muffin, I will most certainly sign up for a Costco membership. If there was an open bar at church, I would be there every single Sunday. 
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Posted: 11 March 2014 09:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]   

   
 
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Poor little Katie doesn't have the same good feelings at home that she has at church.  Bullshit.  I was raised in the church and the feelings I had during meetings were mostly about boredom, guilt, and agonizing restlessness.  Church was uncomfortable.
 
By the way, thanks for this, TTTT.  Howdimissthat, I really appreciated your post.  This thread is one of the best for showing how the overt message of conference talks (e.g., Uchtdorf saying that people leave for reasons other then being umbrageous lazy perverts) is undermined by the covert messages embedded in the more memorable medium of stories.
 
Grrrr...


   


            
 
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Katie finds a way to tolerate her evil apostate family  
Posted: 07 March 2014 06:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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The oh-so-charming Elder Uchtdorf said in a recent conference talk that it's a mistake to think that all those who leave the church do so becuase they were lazy, or wanted to sin, or were offended.  Nice of him to correct those wayward members who got that wrong idea - I wonder where such a thought might have come from?
 
Perhaps he could have a little chat with his friends at The Friend.  Their current issue has a lovely article entitled "Katie Finds a Way."  It's the heart-warming tale of a girl who manages to go to church despite her less than wholesome family that has stopped attending.
 
The story starts with Katie waking up, and then in short order we meet her sister:
“Katie, turn the light off. I’m trying to sleep!” Katie’s sister mumbled, pulling the covers over her head.
Lazy: check
 
And then off to the kitchen, where...
Her mom stood at the counter in a bathrobe, pouring herself a cup of coffee.
Wants to sin: check
 
Dad, who both has coffee and plans to watch some football, is kind of a sin/lazy combination.  I was disappointed with that: he could have mentioned being offended and they would have scored the trifecta.
 
Then Katie's off to church, thanks to her kind teacher Sister Chang.  There she sits reverently, thinking about how she doesnt feel the "peaceful feeling" anywhere else (i.e. not at home).  In fact, the story started off with her thinking "her house felt different" since her parents stopped attending.
 
When she gets back, we see her love for her family - she even says a prayer that they can feel what she does in church.  Even though they don't deserve the kindness...
As Katie walked inside after being dropped off, she saw her family watching TV, talking on the phone, and cleaning the house.
...they get the pity:
She loved them no matter what.
Got that?  She loves them anyway!  How nice to be loved anyway!
 
 
As a hit piece, it's very well done.  We're never directly told that her family are bad people.  In fact Mom with her coffee is downright cheerful about Sister Chang coming to bring Katie to church.  Her sister is merely tired, entirely excusable.  And it's not like there's anything wrong with watching TV, cleaning the house, or talking on the phone.  We are just conditioned to understand that these aren't the things that good people do on the Sabbath.
 
Katie is such a good little girl, and Sister Chang is magnifying her calling as her teacher.  This is a story about good feelings; she feels the spirit in church, and it's so nice and peaceful.  That juxtaposition to the noisy home she returns to never goes right out and says that the feeling there is just the opposite of nice and peaceful.  But it doesn't need to.  Even the children who get the stories of The Friend read to them know how to listen between the lines.
 
Elder Uchtdorf is such a nice urbane apostle, who is so kind to those who are less active.  He pleads with the members to give them a little understanding.  And everyone knows what he means between the lines.
 
And he loves us anyway.
 
tttt


   


Posted: 07 March 2014 07:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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gone.
 
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Posted: 07 March 2014 08:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Posted: 08 March 2014 01:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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This one needs to be archived.  One of my favorites.  Bravo, tttt. 
 
 
If Katie were really that righteous, would she be showing up to primary drunk?  Look at the tell tale pink nose.  I mean, really!


   


Posted: 08 March 2014 03:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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True to the Truth:

 
Then Katie's off to church, thanks to her kind teacher Sister Chang.  There she sits reverently, thinking about how she doesnt feel the "peaceful feeling" anywhere else (i.e. not at home).  In fact, the story started off with her thinking "her house felt different" since her parents stopped attending.
 
. . .   This is a story about good feelings; she feels the spirit in church, and it's so nice and peaceful.  That juxtaposition to the noisy home she returns to never goes right out and says that the feeling there is just the opposite of nice and peaceful. 
 

Feelings
 
Like the "feeling" the member of the stake presidency had to pull over and help out that guy who then pulled a gun, forced him in the trunk and shot him?
 
Feelings
 
Like the "in-sper-a-shun" telling my wife she should pay tithing instead of buying food for our kids, or paying for the rent, car payment, insurance, and so forth and eventually we filed bankruptcy.  Twice.  But were never late or "short" with tithing and other donations.
 
Feelings
 
Like the "feeling" my friend had to spend many hours working in the temple, away from his wife and family during that last year of his life before the brain aneurysm put him in a coma.
 
Feelings
 
Like the "feeling" the bishop and his counselors were given when they pronounced my friend with the brain aneurysm would make a full recovery and then the feelings I had of hate for the guy who pronounced the "blessing" when my friend died the next day.
 
Feelings
 
Like the feeling that it's not right for me, or anyone else, to pretend to believe in something I know isn't real so I have enough feelings (in the form of self respect) to separate myself from the deceitful organization and pick up the pieces of my pre-organization adult life and enjoy what it's like to have control over my own thoughts and actions, the beautiful empowerment that comes from using my own unlimited investigation and reasoning skills to determine whether or not if it's okay to believe that a 37 year old man wasn't really commanded by god to marry that fourteen year old girl and that people who go along with the thousands of similary ridiculos stories are simply DELUSIONAL because they are warned against using their own powers of natural discernment, and I have FEELINGS of immense gratitude because I had enough sense to search the truth, and when I found the facts (which nobody can deny - ha) I had enough FEELINGS to confirm, with zero doubt, many times over, that I know the organization was a total crock of shit.
 
 
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When I discovered the truth and realized the organization was lying to me, that they had always been lying to me, I felt a sting of betrayal, the humiliation from an organization who profits abundantly by violating trust.  I knew that no matter what would come of it, I could no longer remain associated with the organization in any way.  Since leaving, I’ve enjoyed thinking on my own, guilt is almost a foreign concept, and being in control of my life is incredibly satisfying.


   


Posted: 08 March 2014 08:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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howdimissthat
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This article is disturbing because it is directed at children.  It is manipulative, and attempts to breaks the child's bond to their parents and family and attach a bond to the church and those who help them attend their meetings.  She is being taught the church is more peaceful and wonderful than home and family.  It is an abusive and disgraceful tactic to use in order to influence a child.  
 
This is why I there is never a good reason to get excited when  Uchtdorf, the designated "good cop," says things we want to hear.  It's all for the ears of those who still have hope the church is true or will change.  It's just a show folks.  He doesn't mean any of it.  It is to appease those who will be appeased.  It's part of his job, it's why he was hired.  The church doesn't give a shit about the members, period.  The church only cares about the money and energy they can suck out of people, period. 
 
On contrast, my daughter told her daughter's primary teacher she would call the police if she came to offer to take her to church one more time.  Awesome kid I have. 
 
   
 


   


Posted: 08 March 2014 09:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Silver Girl
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I'm feeling the urge to rewrite the story from an "apostates" point of view, and how creepy it is that the church encourages members to contact children directly when their families have made a clear choice that church is not where they want to be.
 
Another great story would be one where the apostates love the children whose families still go to church so much, that they are constantly dropping by the primary to offer rides to the children who'd appreciate the atmosphere at the local amusement park better than the one at church during the 3rd hour   Oh, that's inappropriate?
 
SG


   


Posted: 08 March 2014 09:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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Aleut
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howdimissthat:
 
This article is disturbing because it is directed at children.  It is manipulative, and attempts to breaks the child's bond to their parents and family and attach a bond to the church and those who help them attend their meetings.  She is being taught the church is more peaceful and wonderful than home and family.  It is an abusive and disgraceful tactic to use in order to influence a child.  
 
This is why I there is never a good reason to get excited when  Uchtdorf, the designated "good cop," says things we want to hear.  It's all for the ears of those who still have hope the church is true or will change.  It's just a show folks.  He doesn't mean any of it.  It is to appease those who will be appeased.  It's part of his job, it's why he was hired.  The church doesn't give a shit about the members, period.  The church only cares about the money and energy they can suck out of people, period. 
 
On contrast, my daughter told her daughter's primary teacher she would call the police if she came to offer to take her to church one more time.  Awesome kid I have. 
 
   
 
  I agree.  I couldn't have said it better myself.  We all know individual members that are kind and are truly caring.  But at the corporate level, the church only cares about the bottom line and views the members as assets that can provide free labor and money.
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“I’m having the best day of my life, and I owe it all to not going to Church!”—Homer Simpson, The Simpsons
“I don’t object to the concept of a deity, but I’m baffled by the notion of one that takes attendance.”—Amy Farrah Fowler, The Big Bang Theory
“For the record, I do have genitals. They’re functional and aesthetically pleasing.”—Sheldon Cooper, The Big Bang Theory
All comments, statements, opinions, suggestions, and information expressed, or quotes cited, represent the exclusive viewpoint of Aleut at that point in time and are NOT meant to compel or represent agreement by the reader. Aleut will not be liable for any errors, omissions, or any losses, injuries, or damages arising from its display or use.


   


Posted: 08 March 2014 10:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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howdimissthat:
 
This article is disturbing because it is directed at children.  It is manipulative, and attempts to breaks the child's bond to their parents and family and attach a bond to the church and those who help them attend their meetings.  She is being taught the church is more peaceful and wonderful than home and family.  It is an abusive and disgraceful tactic to use in order to influence a child.  
 
This is why I there is never a good reason to get excited when  Uchtdorf, the designated "good cop," says things we want to hear.  It's all for the ears of those who still have hope the church is true or will change.  It's just a show folks.  He doesn't mean any of it.  It is to appease those who will be appeased.  It's part of his job, it's why he was hired.  The church doesn't give a shit about the members, period.  The church only cares about the money and energy they can suck out of people, period. 
 
On contrast, my daughter told her daughter's primary teacher she would call the police if she came to offer to take her to church one more time.  Awesome kid I have. 
 
   
 
 
Every time you print or say 'shit', Tommy Monson hiccups.  And I giggle...  Thank you.


   


Posted: 08 March 2014 11:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
danboyle2
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howdimissthat:
 
This article is disturbing because it is directed at children.  It is manipulative, and attempts to breaks the child's bond to their parents and family and attach a bond to the church and those who help them attend their meetings.  She is being taught the church is more peaceful and wonderful than home and family.  It is an abusive and disgraceful tactic to use in order to influence a child.  
 
This is why I there is never a good reason to get excited when  Uchtdorf, the designated "good cop," says things we want to hear.  It's all for the ears of those who still have hope the church is true or will change.  It's just a show folks.  He doesn't mean any of it.  It is to appease those who will be appeased.  It's part of his job, it's why he was hired.  The church doesn't give a shit about the members, period.  The church only cares about the money and energy they can suck out of people, period. 
 
On contrast, my daughter told her daughter's primary teacher she would call the police if she came to offer to take her to church one more time.  Awesome kid I have. 
 
   
 
 
100000% correct. Just like the missionary program, separate the child from friends and family and lock in those church ties. It is actually quite evil, imho.....
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“Truth Restored”....unless it becomes embarrassing, then we’ll change it.


   


Posted: 08 March 2014 02:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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True to the Truth
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howdimissthat:
This article is disturbing because it is directed at children.  It is manipulative, and attempts to breaks the child's bond to their parents and family and attach a bond to the church and those who help them attend their meetings.
 
That's just it right there, isn't it?  Mom and dad are the bad guys here, and Sister Chang is the good guy.  Church is important, and family is not.  Your parents are only good as long as they're taking you to church.
 
It's so horrid, and made out to be so innocent.
 
tttt


   


Posted: 08 March 2014 02:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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Aleut
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True to the Truth:
howdimissthat:
This article is disturbing because it is directed at children.  It is manipulative, and attempts to breaks the child's bond to their parents and family and attach a bond to the church and those who help them attend their meetings.
 
That's just it right there, isn't it?  Mom and dad are the bad guys here, and Sister Chang is the good guy.  Church is important, and family is not.  Your parents are only good as long as they're taking you to church.
 
It's so horrid, and made out to be so innocent.
 
tttt
Several years after my wife and I had slipped into inactivity, our then 14-year-old son kept getting phone calls and house calls from the YM's president or the Teacher's Quorum teacher (I don't remember which).  Being quite social, our son went to a few activities, became interested in the church, began attending and was ordained an Aaronic Priesthood Teacher.  At the time I still believed, so I wasn't concerned with his decision to go to church.
 
After some time he seemed to have lost his zeal for the church and eventually quit going altogether.  In time I asked him why he no longer wanted to participate in YM’s activities or attend Sunday services.  [  ] He replied that some members said his mother and I were bad parents because of our inactivity.  Infuriated, he told our detractors that we were good parents and without getting to know us, they had no clue about his family.  He never went to church again.
 
I was/am so proud of him.  He had stood up for me and his mother and didn’t allow church members to drive a wedge into our family.
 
[  ] I agree.  Painting inactive or non-member family members as bad in an effort to bolster the church’s value in the eyes of a child is execrable.
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“I don’t object to the concept of a deity, but I’m baffled by the notion of one that takes attendance.”—Amy Farrah Fowler, The Big Bang Theory
“For the record, I do have genitals. They’re functional and aesthetically pleasing.”—Sheldon Cooper, The Big Bang Theory
All comments, statements, opinions, suggestions, and information expressed, or quotes cited, represent the exclusive viewpoint of Aleut at that point in time and are NOT meant to compel or represent agreement by the reader. Aleut will not be liable for any errors, omissions, or any losses, injuries, or damages arising from its display or use.


   


Posted: 08 March 2014 02:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized
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True to the Truth:
howdimissthat:
This article is disturbing because it is directed at children.  It is manipulative, and attempts to breaks the child's bond to their parents and family and attach a bond to the church and those who help them attend their meetings.
 
That's just it right there, isn't it?  Mom and dad are the bad guys here, and Sister Chang is the good guy.  Church is important, and family is not.  Your parents are only good as long as they're taking you to church.
 
It's so horrid, and made out to be so innocent.
 
tttt
 
Actually, I think Sister Chang is the token Asian. "Look! We're a culturally diverse church!"
 
To make her the good guy in this story is simply gratuitous. 
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We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler


   


Posted: 08 March 2014 04:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
SuziQ
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howdimissthat:
 
This article is disturbing because it is directed at children.  It is manipulative, and attempts to breaks the child's bond to their parents and family and attach a bond to the church and those who help them attend their meetings.  She is being taught the church is more peaceful and wonderful than home and family.  It is an abusive and disgraceful tactic to use in order to influence a child.  
 
This is why I there is never a good reason to get excited when  Uchtdorf, the designated "good cop," says things we want to hear.  It's all for the ears of those who still have hope the church is true or will change.  It's just a show folks.  He doesn't mean any of it.  It is to appease those who will be appeased.  It's part of his job, it's why he was hired.  The church doesn't give a shit about the members, period.  The church only cares about the money and energy they can suck out of people, period. 
 
On contrast, my daughter told her daughter's primary teacher she would call the police if she came to offer to take her to church one more time.  Awesome kid I have. 
 
   
 
 
 Exactly what she said!  This article makes me furious.    There is so much in the church that can make kids feel bad about themselves and their families.
 
I used to watch the looks on the faces of Primary kids when they had to attend activities without their parents.  Whether it was kids whose parents were divorced or those who had inactive or non-member parents.   Daddy-Daughter dances, Mother-Son activities, father son camp outs,  sacrament meetings on mother's day or father's day were unkind and cruel experiences for these kids.  
 
It bothered me even when I was TBM.  I can't think of a single other church that causes little kids to feel less than others.  Any church should be there to build people up, especially children.  TSCC  really is a crappy, self serving organizetion.
 


   


Posted: 08 March 2014 05:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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seeking peace
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This is so disturbing--thanks for the heads up, because I know my grandchildren see this sh*t and picture their Nana at the cabin in a housecoat, drinking a cup of coffee. It is just another lesson for innocent children on how some people are better than, some less than! Back in the day, way back, my husband grew up in a part-member family. Fortunately, he had a wise, kind bishop who encouraged him to skip church occasionally and do things with his Dad on Sunday instead. Boy, those days are long gone.  The church is playing dirtier by the week now.
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I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man—Thomas Jefferson
It takes courage to grow up and turn out to be who you really are.—e.e.cummings


   


Posted: 09 March 2014 07:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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Elder Skelter
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Katie and The Free Candy Van.
 
 
I don't go to church. My wife does on occasion and I support her when she gets the hankering to go. I get up early on Sunday and make breakfast for the family. When that's out of the way,  I drink coffee and watch football or Baseball or whatever suits my fancy for a couple hours. Then, I review the status of my small business and work on projects that need completion. Sometimes for a break, I play video games for a bit (major Sunday sin) or read a non-church book. Lunch time rolls around and I make sandwiches for the chirping kids.
 
Sunday night rolls around and I either make dinner (If my wife has decided to go that week at the gawd awful time block of 1-4) or I help her make it. We have dinner together, laugh, bond, and if I'm lucky, get watch the newest Walking Dead. After that, we verify that any upcoming homework is correct and completed. Around 9:00 pm, my wife and I assemble the kid's lunches for school the next day, have our "together" talking time and eventually go to sleep.
 
When Sunday is over I get up at 5:30 and most-times gladly work 60-70 hours a week to provide for a family of six. After work I come home and help my Autistic son do 1 hour of homework (which takes us 3 hours due to his condition). Around 8:30 at night, I read bed time stories to the youngest two (nothing "anti"), put them to bed and kiss them goodnight while my wife makes sure the oldest two have their homework done. At ten, I make sure the oldest start to dial down and are off the XBOX and that they get to bed.
 
I love my kids, provide for them and sometimes go without the stuff I want so that they and my wife can enjoy life. I do it for the smiles and the hugs. I also respect and have love for a gay family member and as a result have a respect and love for those in the gay community. I work with a gay client and he's cool and we're friends.
 
So...poor little Katie could have it a lot worse with me for a dad. Long story short...I don't go to church, so I'm a bad dad.
 
Anyway...last night (Saturday) my autistic kid announced with dedication that he HAD to go to church on Sunday. When I politely asked why, he replied...
 
"My friend X said that if we came to church, they'd give us a cinnamon roll!"
 
How many "Katies" get bribed every week with Pavlonian motivating cinnamon rolls, candy, outings, etc. to "do the right thing?" Reminds me of this approach a bit too much (image)...
 
Little Katie is in for a rude wake up call when reality catches up with her. Those cinnamon rolls with fish hooks slowly morph into Guilt and Fear bars over time which taste like shit but ones you can't stop eating. Pretty soon, the shit candy doesn't taste like shit anymore, but it definitely leaves a stink on you.
 
Hopefully little Katie realizes that The Free Candy Van is often disguised as The Right Thing Van and doesn't get inside it. 
 
 
Free Candy Van 
 
  
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-J.R.R. Tolkein


   


Posted: 09 March 2014 10:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
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baneberry
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Maybe she'll start a local branch of the "Not Even Once Club!"
 
They are unconsciounable. They'll stop at nothing. 
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Feeling stronger every day…


   


Posted: 09 March 2014 11:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
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seeking peace
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baneberry:
Maybe she'll start a local branch of the "Not Even Once Club!"
 
They are unconsciounable. They'll stop at nothing. 
 
 Unconsciounable--such an appropriate word!! And this is from the Cult of the Eternal Family!
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I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man—Thomas Jefferson
It takes courage to grow up and turn out to be who you really are.—e.e.cummings


   


Posted: 10 March 2014 01:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
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BITE ME
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So many good responses here in this thread!  God I wish I could get my wife to read it.
 
 


   


Posted: 11 March 2014 08:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]   

   
 
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Dogzilla Joy
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Elder Skelter:
Katie and The Free Candy Van.
 
 
I don't go to church. My wife does on occasion and I support her when she gets the hankering to go. I get up early on Sunday and make breakfast for the family. When that's out of the way,  I drink coffee and watch football or Baseball or whatever suits my fancy for a couple hours. Then, I review the status of my small business and work on projects that need completion. Sometimes for a break, I play video games for a bit (major Sunday sin) or read a non-church book. Lunch time rolls around and I make sandwiches for the chirping kids.
 
Sunday night rolls around and I either make dinner (If my wife has decided to go that week at the gawd awful time block of 1-4) or I help her make it. We have dinner together, laugh, bond, and if I'm lucky, get watch the newest Walking Dead. After that, we verify that any upcoming homework is correct and completed. Around 9:00 pm, my wife and I assemble the kid's lunches for school the next day, have our "together" talking time and eventually go to sleep.
 
When Sunday is over I get up at 5:30 and most-times gladly work 60-70 hours a week to provide for a family of six. After work I come home and help my Autistic son do 1 hour of homework (which takes us 3 hours due to his condition). Around 8:30 at night, I read bed time stories to the youngest two (nothing "anti"), put them to bed and kiss them goodnight while my wife makes sure the oldest two have their homework done. At ten, I make sure the oldest start to dial down and are off the XBOX and that they get to bed.
 
I love my kids, provide for them and sometimes go without the stuff I want so that they and my wife can enjoy life. I do it for the smiles and the hugs. I also respect and have love for a gay family member and as a result have a respect and love for those in the gay community. I work with a gay client and he's cool and we're friends.
 
So...poor little Katie could have it a lot worse with me for a dad. Long story short...I don't go to church, so I'm a bad dad.
 
Anyway...last night (Saturday) my autistic kid announced with dedication that he HAD to go to church on Sunday. When I politely asked why, he replied...
 
"My friend X said that if we came to church, they'd give us a cinnamon roll!"
 
How many "Katies" get bribed every week with Pavlonian motivating cinnamon rolls, candy, outings, etc. to "do the right thing?" Reminds me of this approach a bit too much (image)...
 
Little Katie is in for a rude wake up call when reality catches up with her. Those cinnamon rolls with fish hooks slowly morph into Guilt and Fear bars over time which taste like shit but ones you can't stop eating. Pretty soon, the shit candy doesn't taste like shit anymore, but it definitely leaves a stink on you.
 
Hopefully little Katie realizes that The Free Candy Van is often disguised as The Right Thing Van and doesn't get inside it. 
 
 
Free Candy Van 
 
  
 
 The rep from Costco stopped by my office yesterday to drop off a brochure. He said if we let him come back (and give us a sales pitch to join), he would bring muffins. 
 
I say bribery works. If Dude brings me a muffin, I will most certainly sign up for a Costco membership. If there was an open bar at church, I would be there every single Sunday. 
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Formerly known as “Dogzilla.”


   


Posted: 11 March 2014 09:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]   

   
 
Celestial Wedgie
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Poor little Katie doesn't have the same good feelings at home that she has at church.  Bullshit.  I was raised in the church and the feelings I had during meetings were mostly about boredom, guilt, and agonizing restlessness.  Church was uncomfortable.
 
By the way, thanks for this, TTTT.  Howdimissthat, I really appreciated your post.  This thread is one of the best for showing how the overt message of conference talks (e.g., Uchtdorf saying that people leave for reasons other then being umbrageous lazy perverts) is undermined by the covert messages embedded in the more memorable medium of stories.
 
Grrrr...


   


            
 
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Katie finds a way to tolerate her evil apostate family  
Posted: 07 March 2014 06:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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True to the Truth
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The oh-so-charming Elder Uchtdorf said in a recent conference talk that it's a mistake to think that all those who leave the church do so becuase they were lazy, or wanted to sin, or were offended.  Nice of him to correct those wayward members who got that wrong idea - I wonder where such a thought might have come from?
 
Perhaps he could have a little chat with his friends at The Friend.  Their current issue has a lovely article entitled "Katie Finds a Way."  It's the heart-warming tale of a girl who manages to go to church despite her less than wholesome family that has stopped attending.
 
The story starts with Katie waking up, and then in short order we meet her sister:
“Katie, turn the light off. I’m trying to sleep!” Katie’s sister mumbled, pulling the covers over her head.
Lazy: check
 
And then off to the kitchen, where...
Her mom stood at the counter in a bathrobe, pouring herself a cup of coffee.
Wants to sin: check
 
Dad, who both has coffee and plans to watch some football, is kind of a sin/lazy combination.  I was disappointed with that: he could have mentioned being offended and they would have scored the trifecta.
 
Then Katie's off to church, thanks to her kind teacher Sister Chang.  There she sits reverently, thinking about how she doesnt feel the "peaceful feeling" anywhere else (i.e. not at home).  In fact, the story started off with her thinking "her house felt different" since her parents stopped attending.
 
When she gets back, we see her love for her family - she even says a prayer that they can feel what she does in church.  Even though they don't deserve the kindness...
As Katie walked inside after being dropped off, she saw her family watching TV, talking on the phone, and cleaning the house.
...they get the pity:
She loved them no matter what.
Got that?  She loves them anyway!  How nice to be loved anyway!
 
 
As a hit piece, it's very well done.  We're never directly told that her family are bad people.  In fact Mom with her coffee is downright cheerful about Sister Chang coming to bring Katie to church.  Her sister is merely tired, entirely excusable.  And it's not like there's anything wrong with watching TV, cleaning the house, or talking on the phone.  We are just conditioned to understand that these aren't the things that good people do on the Sabbath.
 
Katie is such a good little girl, and Sister Chang is magnifying her calling as her teacher.  This is a story about good feelings; she feels the spirit in church, and it's so nice and peaceful.  That juxtaposition to the noisy home she returns to never goes right out and says that the feeling there is just the opposite of nice and peaceful.  But it doesn't need to.  Even the children who get the stories of The Friend read to them know how to listen between the lines.
 
Elder Uchtdorf is such a nice urbane apostle, who is so kind to those who are less active.  He pleads with the members to give them a little understanding.  And everyone knows what he means between the lines.
 
And he loves us anyway.
 
tttt


   


Posted: 07 March 2014 07:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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gone.
 
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“And the Lord said: I will prepare unto my servant Gazelem, a stone, which shall shine forth in darkness unto light, that I may discover unto my people who serve me, that I may discover unto them the works of their brethren, yea, their secret works, their works of darkness, and their wickedness and abominations.” Alma 37:3


   


Posted: 07 March 2014 08:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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In the TSCC, it's not a question of getting better, it's just a question of getting better than someone else!  
 


   


Posted: 08 March 2014 01:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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how is this my life
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This one needs to be archived.  One of my favorites.  Bravo, tttt. 
 
 
If Katie were really that righteous, would she be showing up to primary drunk?  Look at the tell tale pink nose.  I mean, really!


   


Posted: 08 March 2014 03:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Bold Wish
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True to the Truth:

 
Then Katie's off to church, thanks to her kind teacher Sister Chang.  There she sits reverently, thinking about how she doesnt feel the "peaceful feeling" anywhere else (i.e. not at home).  In fact, the story started off with her thinking "her house felt different" since her parents stopped attending.
 
. . .   This is a story about good feelings; she feels the spirit in church, and it's so nice and peaceful.  That juxtaposition to the noisy home she returns to never goes right out and says that the feeling there is just the opposite of nice and peaceful. 
 

Feelings
 
Like the "feeling" the member of the stake presidency had to pull over and help out that guy who then pulled a gun, forced him in the trunk and shot him?
 
Feelings
 
Like the "in-sper-a-shun" telling my wife she should pay tithing instead of buying food for our kids, or paying for the rent, car payment, insurance, and so forth and eventually we filed bankruptcy.  Twice.  But were never late or "short" with tithing and other donations.
 
Feelings
 
Like the "feeling" my friend had to spend many hours working in the temple, away from his wife and family during that last year of his life before the brain aneurysm put him in a coma.
 
Feelings
 
Like the "feeling" the bishop and his counselors were given when they pronounced my friend with the brain aneurysm would make a full recovery and then the feelings I had of hate for the guy who pronounced the "blessing" when my friend died the next day.
 
Feelings
 
Like the feeling that it's not right for me, or anyone else, to pretend to believe in something I know isn't real so I have enough feelings (in the form of self respect) to separate myself from the deceitful organization and pick up the pieces of my pre-organization adult life and enjoy what it's like to have control over my own thoughts and actions, the beautiful empowerment that comes from using my own unlimited investigation and reasoning skills to determine whether or not if it's okay to believe that a 37 year old man wasn't really commanded by god to marry that fourteen year old girl and that people who go along with the thousands of similary ridiculos stories are simply DELUSIONAL because they are warned against using their own powers of natural discernment, and I have FEELINGS of immense gratitude because I had enough sense to search the truth, and when I found the facts (which nobody can deny - ha) I had enough FEELINGS to confirm, with zero doubt, many times over, that I know the organization was a total crock of shit.
 
 
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When I discovered the truth and realized the organization was lying to me, that they had always been lying to me, I felt a sting of betrayal, the humiliation from an organization who profits abundantly by violating trust.  I knew that no matter what would come of it, I could no longer remain associated with the organization in any way.  Since leaving, I’ve enjoyed thinking on my own, guilt is almost a foreign concept, and being in control of my life is incredibly satisfying.


   


Posted: 08 March 2014 08:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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This article is disturbing because it is directed at children.  It is manipulative, and attempts to breaks the child's bond to their parents and family and attach a bond to the church and those who help them attend their meetings.  She is being taught the church is more peaceful and wonderful than home and family.  It is an abusive and disgraceful tactic to use in order to influence a child.  
 
This is why I there is never a good reason to get excited when  Uchtdorf, the designated "good cop," says things we want to hear.  It's all for the ears of those who still have hope the church is true or will change.  It's just a show folks.  He doesn't mean any of it.  It is to appease those who will be appeased.  It's part of his job, it's why he was hired.  The church doesn't give a shit about the members, period.  The church only cares about the money and energy they can suck out of people, period. 
 
On contrast, my daughter told her daughter's primary teacher she would call the police if she came to offer to take her to church one more time.  Awesome kid I have. 
 
   
 


   


Posted: 08 March 2014 09:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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I'm feeling the urge to rewrite the story from an "apostates" point of view, and how creepy it is that the church encourages members to contact children directly when their families have made a clear choice that church is not where they want to be.
 
Another great story would be one where the apostates love the children whose families still go to church so much, that they are constantly dropping by the primary to offer rides to the children who'd appreciate the atmosphere at the local amusement park better than the one at church during the 3rd hour   Oh, that's inappropriate?
 
SG


   


Posted: 08 March 2014 09:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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howdimissthat:
 
This article is disturbing because it is directed at children.  It is manipulative, and attempts to breaks the child's bond to their parents and family and attach a bond to the church and those who help them attend their meetings.  She is being taught the church is more peaceful and wonderful than home and family.  It is an abusive and disgraceful tactic to use in order to influence a child.  
 
This is why I there is never a good reason to get excited when  Uchtdorf, the designated "good cop," says things we want to hear.  It's all for the ears of those who still have hope the church is true or will change.  It's just a show folks.  He doesn't mean any of it.  It is to appease those who will be appeased.  It's part of his job, it's why he was hired.  The church doesn't give a shit about the members, period.  The church only cares about the money and energy they can suck out of people, period. 
 
On contrast, my daughter told her daughter's primary teacher she would call the police if she came to offer to take her to church one more time.  Awesome kid I have. 
 
   
 
  I agree.  I couldn't have said it better myself.  We all know individual members that are kind and are truly caring.  But at the corporate level, the church only cares about the bottom line and views the members as assets that can provide free labor and money.
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Posted: 08 March 2014 10:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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howdimissthat:
 
This article is disturbing because it is directed at children.  It is manipulative, and attempts to breaks the child's bond to their parents and family and attach a bond to the church and those who help them attend their meetings.  She is being taught the church is more peaceful and wonderful than home and family.  It is an abusive and disgraceful tactic to use in order to influence a child.  
 
This is why I there is never a good reason to get excited when  Uchtdorf, the designated "good cop," says things we want to hear.  It's all for the ears of those who still have hope the church is true or will change.  It's just a show folks.  He doesn't mean any of it.  It is to appease those who will be appeased.  It's part of his job, it's why he was hired.  The church doesn't give a shit about the members, period.  The church only cares about the money and energy they can suck out of people, period. 
 
On contrast, my daughter told her daughter's primary teacher she would call the police if she came to offer to take her to church one more time.  Awesome kid I have. 
 
   
 
 
Every time you print or say 'shit', Tommy Monson hiccups.  And I giggle...  Thank you.


   


Posted: 08 March 2014 11:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
danboyle2
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howdimissthat:
 
This article is disturbing because it is directed at children.  It is manipulative, and attempts to breaks the child's bond to their parents and family and attach a bond to the church and those who help them attend their meetings.  She is being taught the church is more peaceful and wonderful than home and family.  It is an abusive and disgraceful tactic to use in order to influence a child.  
 
This is why I there is never a good reason to get excited when  Uchtdorf, the designated "good cop," says things we want to hear.  It's all for the ears of those who still have hope the church is true or will change.  It's just a show folks.  He doesn't mean any of it.  It is to appease those who will be appeased.  It's part of his job, it's why he was hired.  The church doesn't give a shit about the members, period.  The church only cares about the money and energy they can suck out of people, period. 
 
On contrast, my daughter told her daughter's primary teacher she would call the police if she came to offer to take her to church one more time.  Awesome kid I have. 
 
   
 
 
100000% correct. Just like the missionary program, separate the child from friends and family and lock in those church ties. It is actually quite evil, imho.....
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Posted: 08 March 2014 02:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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howdimissthat:
This article is disturbing because it is directed at children.  It is manipulative, and attempts to breaks the child's bond to their parents and family and attach a bond to the church and those who help them attend their meetings.
 
That's just it right there, isn't it?  Mom and dad are the bad guys here, and Sister Chang is the good guy.  Church is important, and family is not.  Your parents are only good as long as they're taking you to church.
 
It's so horrid, and made out to be so innocent.
 
tttt


   


Posted: 08 March 2014 02:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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Aleut
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True to the Truth:
howdimissthat:
This article is disturbing because it is directed at children.  It is manipulative, and attempts to breaks the child's bond to their parents and family and attach a bond to the church and those who help them attend their meetings.
 
That's just it right there, isn't it?  Mom and dad are the bad guys here, and Sister Chang is the good guy.  Church is important, and family is not.  Your parents are only good as long as they're taking you to church.
 
It's so horrid, and made out to be so innocent.
 
tttt
Several years after my wife and I had slipped into inactivity, our then 14-year-old son kept getting phone calls and house calls from the YM's president or the Teacher's Quorum teacher (I don't remember which).  Being quite social, our son went to a few activities, became interested in the church, began attending and was ordained an Aaronic Priesthood Teacher.  At the time I still believed, so I wasn't concerned with his decision to go to church.
 
After some time he seemed to have lost his zeal for the church and eventually quit going altogether.  In time I asked him why he no longer wanted to participate in YM’s activities or attend Sunday services.  [  ] He replied that some members said his mother and I were bad parents because of our inactivity.  Infuriated, he told our detractors that we were good parents and without getting to know us, they had no clue about his family.  He never went to church again.
 
I was/am so proud of him.  He had stood up for me and his mother and didn’t allow church members to drive a wedge into our family.
 
[  ] I agree.  Painting inactive or non-member family members as bad in an effort to bolster the church’s value in the eyes of a child is execrable.
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All comments, statements, opinions, suggestions, and information expressed, or quotes cited, represent the exclusive viewpoint of Aleut at that point in time and are NOT meant to compel or represent agreement by the reader. Aleut will not be liable for any errors, omissions, or any losses, injuries, or damages arising from its display or use.


   


Posted: 08 March 2014 02:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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True to the Truth:
howdimissthat:
This article is disturbing because it is directed at children.  It is manipulative, and attempts to breaks the child's bond to their parents and family and attach a bond to the church and those who help them attend their meetings.
 
That's just it right there, isn't it?  Mom and dad are the bad guys here, and Sister Chang is the good guy.  Church is important, and family is not.  Your parents are only good as long as they're taking you to church.
 
It's so horrid, and made out to be so innocent.
 
tttt
 
Actually, I think Sister Chang is the token Asian. "Look! We're a culturally diverse church!"
 
To make her the good guy in this story is simply gratuitous. 
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Posted: 08 March 2014 04:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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howdimissthat:
 
This article is disturbing because it is directed at children.  It is manipulative, and attempts to breaks the child's bond to their parents and family and attach a bond to the church and those who help them attend their meetings.  She is being taught the church is more peaceful and wonderful than home and family.  It is an abusive and disgraceful tactic to use in order to influence a child.  
 
This is why I there is never a good reason to get excited when  Uchtdorf, the designated "good cop," says things we want to hear.  It's all for the ears of those who still have hope the church is true or will change.  It's just a show folks.  He doesn't mean any of it.  It is to appease those who will be appeased.  It's part of his job, it's why he was hired.  The church doesn't give a shit about the members, period.  The church only cares about the money and energy they can suck out of people, period. 
 
On contrast, my daughter told her daughter's primary teacher she would call the police if she came to offer to take her to church one more time.  Awesome kid I have. 
 
   
 
 
 Exactly what she said!  This article makes me furious.    There is so much in the church that can make kids feel bad about themselves and their families.
 
I used to watch the looks on the faces of Primary kids when they had to attend activities without their parents.  Whether it was kids whose parents were divorced or those who had inactive or non-member parents.   Daddy-Daughter dances, Mother-Son activities, father son camp outs,  sacrament meetings on mother's day or father's day were unkind and cruel experiences for these kids.  
 
It bothered me even when I was TBM.  I can't think of a single other church that causes little kids to feel less than others.  Any church should be there to build people up, especially children.  TSCC  really is a crappy, self serving organizetion.
 


   


Posted: 08 March 2014 05:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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seeking peace
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This is so disturbing--thanks for the heads up, because I know my grandchildren see this sh*t and picture their Nana at the cabin in a housecoat, drinking a cup of coffee. It is just another lesson for innocent children on how some people are better than, some less than! Back in the day, way back, my husband grew up in a part-member family. Fortunately, he had a wise, kind bishop who encouraged him to skip church occasionally and do things with his Dad on Sunday instead. Boy, those days are long gone.  The church is playing dirtier by the week now.
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It takes courage to grow up and turn out to be who you really are.—e.e.cummings


   


Posted: 09 March 2014 07:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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Katie and The Free Candy Van.
 
 
I don't go to church. My wife does on occasion and I support her when she gets the hankering to go. I get up early on Sunday and make breakfast for the family. When that's out of the way,  I drink coffee and watch football or Baseball or whatever suits my fancy for a couple hours. Then, I review the status of my small business and work on projects that need completion. Sometimes for a break, I play video games for a bit (major Sunday sin) or read a non-church book. Lunch time rolls around and I make sandwiches for the chirping kids.
 
Sunday night rolls around and I either make dinner (If my wife has decided to go that week at the gawd awful time block of 1-4) or I help her make it. We have dinner together, laugh, bond, and if I'm lucky, get watch the newest Walking Dead. After that, we verify that any upcoming homework is correct and completed. Around 9:00 pm, my wife and I assemble the kid's lunches for school the next day, have our "together" talking time and eventually go to sleep.
 
When Sunday is over I get up at 5:30 and most-times gladly work 60-70 hours a week to provide for a family of six. After work I come home and help my Autistic son do 1 hour of homework (which takes us 3 hours due to his condition). Around 8:30 at night, I read bed time stories to the youngest two (nothing "anti"), put them to bed and kiss them goodnight while my wife makes sure the oldest two have their homework done. At ten, I make sure the oldest start to dial down and are off the XBOX and that they get to bed.
 
I love my kids, provide for them and sometimes go without the stuff I want so that they and my wife can enjoy life. I do it for the smiles and the hugs. I also respect and have love for a gay family member and as a result have a respect and love for those in the gay community. I work with a gay client and he's cool and we're friends.
 
So...poor little Katie could have it a lot worse with me for a dad. Long story short...I don't go to church, so I'm a bad dad.
 
Anyway...last night (Saturday) my autistic kid announced with dedication that he HAD to go to church on Sunday. When I politely asked why, he replied...
 
"My friend X said that if we came to church, they'd give us a cinnamon roll!"
 
How many "Katies" get bribed every week with Pavlonian motivating cinnamon rolls, candy, outings, etc. to "do the right thing?" Reminds me of this approach a bit too much (image)...
 
Little Katie is in for a rude wake up call when reality catches up with her. Those cinnamon rolls with fish hooks slowly morph into Guilt and Fear bars over time which taste like shit but ones you can't stop eating. Pretty soon, the shit candy doesn't taste like shit anymore, but it definitely leaves a stink on you.
 
Hopefully little Katie realizes that The Free Candy Van is often disguised as The Right Thing Van and doesn't get inside it. 
 
 
Free Candy Van 
 
  
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Posted: 09 March 2014 10:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
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Maybe she'll start a local branch of the "Not Even Once Club!"
 
They are unconsciounable. They'll stop at nothing. 
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Feeling stronger every day…


   


Posted: 09 March 2014 11:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
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seeking peace
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baneberry:
Maybe she'll start a local branch of the "Not Even Once Club!"
 
They are unconsciounable. They'll stop at nothing. 
 
 Unconsciounable--such an appropriate word!! And this is from the Cult of the Eternal Family!
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Posted: 10 March 2014 01:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
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BITE ME
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So many good responses here in this thread!  God I wish I could get my wife to read it.
 
 


   


Posted: 11 March 2014 08:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]   

   
 
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Dogzilla Joy
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Elder Skelter:
Katie and The Free Candy Van.
 
 
I don't go to church. My wife does on occasion and I support her when she gets the hankering to go. I get up early on Sunday and make breakfast for the family. When that's out of the way,  I drink coffee and watch football or Baseball or whatever suits my fancy for a couple hours. Then, I review the status of my small business and work on projects that need completion. Sometimes for a break, I play video games for a bit (major Sunday sin) or read a non-church book. Lunch time rolls around and I make sandwiches for the chirping kids.
 
Sunday night rolls around and I either make dinner (If my wife has decided to go that week at the gawd awful time block of 1-4) or I help her make it. We have dinner together, laugh, bond, and if I'm lucky, get watch the newest Walking Dead. After that, we verify that any upcoming homework is correct and completed. Around 9:00 pm, my wife and I assemble the kid's lunches for school the next day, have our "together" talking time and eventually go to sleep.
 
When Sunday is over I get up at 5:30 and most-times gladly work 60-70 hours a week to provide for a family of six. After work I come home and help my Autistic son do 1 hour of homework (which takes us 3 hours due to his condition). Around 8:30 at night, I read bed time stories to the youngest two (nothing "anti"), put them to bed and kiss them goodnight while my wife makes sure the oldest two have their homework done. At ten, I make sure the oldest start to dial down and are off the XBOX and that they get to bed.
 
I love my kids, provide for them and sometimes go without the stuff I want so that they and my wife can enjoy life. I do it for the smiles and the hugs. I also respect and have love for a gay family member and as a result have a respect and love for those in the gay community. I work with a gay client and he's cool and we're friends.
 
So...poor little Katie could have it a lot worse with me for a dad. Long story short...I don't go to church, so I'm a bad dad.
 
Anyway...last night (Saturday) my autistic kid announced with dedication that he HAD to go to church on Sunday. When I politely asked why, he replied...
 
"My friend X said that if we came to church, they'd give us a cinnamon roll!"
 
How many "Katies" get bribed every week with Pavlonian motivating cinnamon rolls, candy, outings, etc. to "do the right thing?" Reminds me of this approach a bit too much (image)...
 
Little Katie is in for a rude wake up call when reality catches up with her. Those cinnamon rolls with fish hooks slowly morph into Guilt and Fear bars over time which taste like shit but ones you can't stop eating. Pretty soon, the shit candy doesn't taste like shit anymore, but it definitely leaves a stink on you.
 
Hopefully little Katie realizes that The Free Candy Van is often disguised as The Right Thing Van and doesn't get inside it. 
 
 
Free Candy Van 
 
  
 
 The rep from Costco stopped by my office yesterday to drop off a brochure. He said if we let him come back (and give us a sales pitch to join), he would bring muffins. 
 
I say bribery works. If Dude brings me a muffin, I will most certainly sign up for a Costco membership. If there was an open bar at church, I would be there every single Sunday. 
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Posted: 11 March 2014 09:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]   

   
 
Celestial Wedgie
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Poor little Katie doesn't have the same good feelings at home that she has at church.  Bullshit.  I was raised in the church and the feelings I had during meetings were mostly about boredom, guilt, and agonizing restlessness.  Church was uncomfortable.
 
By the way, thanks for this, TTTT.  Howdimissthat, I really appreciated your post.  This thread is one of the best for showing how the overt message of conference talks (e.g., Uchtdorf saying that people leave for reasons other then being umbrageous lazy perverts) is undermined by the covert messages embedded in the more memorable medium of stories.
 
Grrrr...


   


            
 
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John Dehlin on Dallin Oaks: Destroying the LDS Church from Within  
Posted: 01 March 2014 01:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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DrW
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John Dehlin said:
 
"I swear Dallin H. Oaks is hastening the LDS church's demise. And he is doing it with a grin.
 
When asked to choose between an LDS church position on civil rights on the one hand, and reason on the other hand...I will choose reason. Every. Time. People of color. Women. LGBT individuals. Take your pick. The track record is abysmal.
 
I ask you. Who is diminishing themselves, and who is cheapening civilization?"
 
1625546_10151936867831806_514101804_n.jpg 
 
  
 
Looks as if Oaks is trying to keep up with BKP's  "the truth is not uplifting, it destroys", "some thing sthat are ture are not very useful" and "the mantle is far far greater than the intellect".
 
 
Really, though, what does someone like Oaks expect when he makes outrageous and over the top public statements like this one? 
 


   


Posted: 01 March 2014 03:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Oaks is a douchebag. No, I take that back. It's an insult to douchebags.
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Posted: 01 March 2014 04:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized:
Oaks is a douchebag. No, I take that back. It's an insult to douchebags.
Yeah, I agree.  At least a douchebag serves a necessary purpose.
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Posted: 01 March 2014 04:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
from the 5th wife
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Some times these guys are pure entertainment, if only they knew we were laughing at them and not with them.  Grab a bag of popcorn and lets watch them try and explain themselves out of some of the holes they have dug themselves into. 

   


Posted: 01 March 2014 05:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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They've cheapened civilization by adhering to the lame myths Joseph Smith made up.
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Posted: 01 March 2014 09:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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DrW:
 


 
1625546_10151936867831806_514101804_n.jpg 
 
  


 
 "Am I to believe every absurdity?  If not, why this one in particular?"  Freud


   


Posted: 02 March 2014 06:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Wasn't this the same argument that got Galileo in trouble?
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 02 March 2014 10:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
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Do not use your critical thinking skills when you can believe what we say instead.  Cheapen society?  By putting families on the street by paying tithing instead of the rent?  By teaching our children to call men who married little girls and other men's wives and called having someone killed "Using them up" (Brigham Young) and adoring the liars leading today is not deminishing oneself?  Sounds like cheapening society to me.  More and more I am seeing how much these guys are like Warren Jeffs.  Not just Joseph Smith but the shamless liars and twisted guys running things now.  Ugh!  Wasn't Dalin Oaks a big wig attorney?  What an idiot! 

   


Posted: 02 March 2014 10:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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WinstonSmith
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DrW:
John Dehlin said:
 
"I swear Dallin H. Oaks is hastening the LDS church's demise. And he is doing it with a grin.
 
When asked to choose between an LDS church position on civil rights on the one hand, and reason on the other hand...I will choose reason. Every. Time. People of color. Women. LGBT individuals. Take your pick. The track record is abysmal.
 
I ask you. Who is diminishing themselves, and who is cheapening civilization?"
 
1625546_10151936867831806_514101804_n.jpg 
 
  
 
Looks as if Oaks is trying to keep up with BKP's  "the truth is not uplifting, it destroys", "some thing sthat are ture are not very useful" and "the mantle is far far greater than the intellect".
 
 
Really, though, what does someone like Oaks expect when he makes outrageous and over the top public statements like this one? 
 
 
I've been looking at this thread thinking, "this can't be for real".  What a mockery of what the New Testament Jesus taught. And to think he claims to be a special witness of Christ.
 
Churches and especially TBMs should expect and demand a much higher standard from their leadership. For a leader of a church to lay the ground work for such hatred, intolerance and bigotry for anyone that believes differently than they is just shameful.
 
What hurts me so much is DW eats this up as evidence that I am the bad guy.
 
Does Oaks or any of the Q15 not realize that I (we are) am a real person with real emotions, with real concerns and statements like this have real consequences in a mixed faith marriage.
 
Does Oaks not realize that name calling does not emulate Christ.
 
When all is said and done, this statement is likely to be viewed as, "mistakes have been made" or "he was speaking as a man"---but there are consequences to this statement and one is driving a wedged in my marriage.
 
It is obvious that the 11th article of faith means nothing to Oaks and now I am left questioning if His own integrity means nothing to Him.
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Posted: 02 March 2014 11:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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Is Dehlin going to be excommunicated for that? Why does Dehlin stay anyway? I really like him. Confused. 

   


Posted: 02 March 2014 11:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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Reason, like mathematics (indeed reason and logic are originally mathematical principles), is a natural discovery. It wasn't "invented" really. Let someone attempt to "invent" an alternative to mathematics. Math is naturally true. It was true before it was discovered and described. The universe was always describable in terms of reason and logic with or without any sentient being to care. It's natural truth, or what Oaks would call "divine".
What he calls "divine", ironically, is a man-made philosophy that, though ancient, is at odds with our expanding understanding of universal reason. It is because of reason that we now know these ancient dogmas are impeccable. They are, in fact, the philosophies of men.
He's saying we must suspend reason in order to have faith. Is this an admonishment or an admission?


   


Posted: 02 March 2014 02:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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amos:
Reason, like mathematics (indeed reason and logic are originally mathematical principles), is a natural discovery. It wasn't "invented" really. Let someone attempt to "invent" an alternative to mathematics. Math is naturally true. It was true before it was discovered and described. The universe was always describable in terms of reason and logic with or without any sentient being to care. It's natural truth, or what Oaks would call "divine".
What he calls "divine", ironically, is a man-made philosophy that, though ancient, is at odds with our expanding understanding of universal reason. It is because of reason that we now know these ancient dogmas are impeccable. They are, in fact, the philosophies of men.
He's saying we must suspend reason in order to have faith. Is this an admonishment or an admission?
 
 Excellent post, Amos.  Mathematics as "divine". Absolutely on point.
 
This is a viewpoint that should be given wider consideration. It would be great if this kind of analysis were to be posted on other boards where this particular Oaks quotation is being discussed.
 
 


   


Posted: 02 March 2014 10:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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DrW:
John Dehlin said:
 
"I swear Dallin H. Oaks is hastening the LDS church's demise. And he is doing it with a grin.
 
When asked to choose between an LDS church position on civil rights on the one hand, and reason on the other hand...I will choose reason. Every. Time. People of color. Women. LGBT individuals. Take your pick. The track record is abysmal.
 
I ask you. Who is diminishing themselves, and who is cheapening civilization?"
 
1625546_10151936867831806_514101804_n.jpg 
 
  
 
Looks as if Oaks is trying to keep up with BKP's  "the truth is not uplifting, it destroys", "some thing sthat are ture are not very useful" and "the mantle is far far greater than the intellect".
 
 
Really, though, what does someone like Oaks expect when he makes outrageous and over the top public statements like this one? 
 
 Does Dallin Oaks want to burn all the writings of Socrates and Plato because they interfer with his business model?  And that man was a judge? Is it just a coincidence that BYU does not require logic as part of it's general education requirements?  BYU is an accreditied university in the US?  Our government (NSA) would collect webam images of naked people but not require all universities to teach logic?
 
 
 


   


Posted: 02 March 2014 11:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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Woe to you unbelievers. Don't you remember the inspired Apostolic Council of Pres. Oaks? "Don't criticize the leaders, even if it is true".
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Posted: 02 March 2014 11:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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Nephi:
Woe to you unbelievers. Don't you remember the inspired Apostolic Council of Pres. Oaks? "Don't criticize the leaders, even if it is true".
 
 Why does our government allow this Mormon crap to continue to destroy lives?
 
 
 
 
 


   


Posted: 02 March 2014 11:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
Life Rocks
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John Dehlin, I have a great deal of respect for.
 
Having listened to many of his podcasts, I think he's tormented.
 
He's walking an incredibly difficult balancing act interviewing all of the people and trying to stay somewhat neutral and remain an "active" member of the Church. In fact, I'd be surprised if John won't be asked at some point to take down mormonstories.org and to stop fueling the fire of awareness.
 
But the truth of how he feels comes out in his language and what he chooses to talk about.  
 
In some respects he's like business owners who sell cigarettes and alcohol to those who want more than just the sanitized version taught in Sunday School. He's not using them himself, but the product is still getting sold.
 
I read the blogger of puremormonism is under threat of getting disciplined.
 
If John is associating with the likes of Grant Palmer and others and providing them with an audience to hear their concerns, regardless of how truthful or not, I think a case could be made with him "affiliating with those who are against the Church".
Most of us didn't know anything about Tom Phillips or a "Second Annointing" until the mormonstories interview. Most of us were unaware of the Swedish Rescue or if you got to the beginning, knew nothing about the "kiddie baptisms".
 
What a dilemma all of this is and what a mess.  
 
Today I learned about Ida Smith being excommunicated and who she was and what she contributed to the Church. She used to be a "stalwart" member of the Church.
 
It leads me to believe that the only way to stay a believing member of the Church is to stay stupid about what's really going on.  
 
Regardless of what the Church says publicly about gay rights it's not hard to tell that the Church is not supportive of gays marrying legally.
 
The Church leadership must be really banging their heads against the wall. What do you do with a John Dehlin. Or maybe the Church knows that if they were to discipline him, his comments saying publically that he had been disciplined in any way would affect thousands of members who are already teetering on the fence of faith.
 
 


   


Posted: 03 March 2014 06:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
Nephi
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TruthSeeker:
Nephi:
Woe to you unbelievers. Don't you remember the inspired Apostolic Council of Pres. Oaks? "Don't criticize the leaders, even if it is true".
 
 Why does our government allow this Mormon crap to continue to destroy lives?
 
 
 
 
 
 
Considering how elected officials and "government' does things do you really want them trying to regulate what fables and lies people will believe?
 
I think Government should stay out of religion absent criminal activity, which should be prosecuted. I also believe religious buildings and property should always pay property taxes. Not doing so is a tax break that cheats all honest taxpayers.
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Posted: 03 March 2014 07:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
Penguin
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Life Rocks:
if you got to the beginning, knew nothing about the "kiddie baptisms".
 
 
 I'm not tracking this reference. What do you mean?


   


Posted: 03 March 2014 08:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
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Penguin:
Life Rocks:
if you got to the beginning, knew nothing about the "kiddie baptisms".
 
 
 I'm not tracking this reference. What do you mean?
 
I think he is referring to one of the first mormonstories podcasts on the manipulative tactics used in baptizing mass numbers of children in Guatamala or some place like that. As I recall, it was one of the first major causes of cognitive dissonance for Dehlin.
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Posted: 03 March 2014 08:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]   

   
 
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So when did John Dehlin supposedly say the op quote? Was it before or after his "reconversion."
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 03 March 2014 09:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]   

   
 
mariejo
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He posted it two days ago on Facebook. 

   


Posted: 03 March 2014 11:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]   

   
 
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Mr Oaks,
 
Without my "Human Reasoning", how am I supposed to tell the difference between "Divine Influence" and the philosophies of men, mingled with scripture?
 
After all, there are many different religions selling their version of "divine influence". You aren't the only game in town.
 
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Posted: 03 March 2014 04:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]   

   
 
Free2Live
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Tessa:
So when did John Dehlin supposedly say the op quote? Was it before or after his "reconversion."
 
Reconversion?
 
His business profits for a steady fixed income and an increased base for further subscriptions gave testimony that he is feeling the spirit.?!
 
 
 
 
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One is as committed into testimony as much as they pay into the belief in dollars time talent and energy. Afterall, it has to be true once you signed the lifetime subscription and you have a track record to defend.


   


Posted: 03 March 2014 04:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]   

   
 
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Born Free
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There is a fundamental flaw in the type of 'logic' promoted by Oaks.
One has to arrive at trusting in the Church's claims, and presumably up until that point, your logical faculties were just fine (provided they led you to the Church).
BUT, having arrived, those same faculties are a potential threat, and need to be switched off.
Yeah, that makes perfect sense.
So logic is OK if it has you're tracking towards Mormonism, but dicky if tracking otherwise. Nothing self-serving about that whatsoever.
Of course, this whole promotion of emotive 'reasoning' is intended to overcome the WTF that arises when people discover that huge chunks of Mormon history and doctrine was deliberately hidden from them, while they were engaging.
We are talking about false and misleading practice, just as the UK case claims.
 
Daryl 
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‘Our life is the creation of our minds, and we do much of that creating in metaphor…. With the wrong metaphor we are deluded; with no metaphor we are blind. ’ Jonathan Haidt
‘and I am responsible for the metaphors that populate my mind.’ Daryl


   


Posted: 03 March 2014 07:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
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TruthSeeker:
Nephi:
Woe to you unbelievers. Don't you remember the inspired Apostolic Council of Pres. Oaks? "Don't criticize the leaders, even if it is true".
 
 Why does our government allow this Mormon crap to continue to destroy lives?
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Just my opinion TruthSeeker, but the reason I believe it still happens it that we, as PostMos, are still pretty isolated from the eyes of the world.  Few in America know how dangerous Moromonism really is.  They do not understand that the church teaches you should pay tithes even if you and your children are put out on the streets because of it.  The public does not know how many people have been driven to suicide by guilt and shunning.  We don't even know--but we do know it happens.  The public does not understand Mormonism is possibly the largest and most harmful fraud ever perpetuated upon mankind--in America.  Religion in general probably takes first prize.  The public--in general--does not know how evil and ugly the deeds of Joseph Smith and Brigham were or the depth of lying that is done by the GAs.  
 
We need, need, need this out in the open!  I am fraustrated that I don't see the UK lawsuit being discussed on CNN, Yahoo, New York Times and others.  We have to educate the public.  Perhaps some of that will come if Tom wins this suit, but it should be out there already.  The mind-control and damage they are getting away with is unbelieveable!


   


Posted: 03 March 2014 09:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]   

   
 
Piri Roza
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Strong Free & Thankful:
TruthSeeker:
Nephi:
Woe to you unbelievers. Don't you remember the inspired Apostolic Council of Pres. Oaks? "Don't criticize the leaders, even if it is true".
 
 Why does our government allow this Mormon crap to continue to destroy lives?
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Just my opinion TruthSeeker, but the reason I believe it still happens it that we, as PostMos, are still pretty isolated from the eyes of the world.  Few in America know how dangerous Moromonism really is.  They do not understand that the church teaches you should pay tithes even if you and your children are put out on the streets because of it.  The public does not know how many people have been driven to suicide by guilt and shunning.  We don't even know--but we do know it happens.  The public does not understand Mormonism is possibly the largest and most harmful fraud ever perpetuated upon mankind--in America.  Religion in general probably takes first prize.  The public--in general--does not know how evil and ugly the deeds of Joseph Smith and Brigham were or the depth of lying that is done by the GAs.  
 
We need, need, need this out in the open!  I am fraustrated that I don't see the UK lawsuit being discussed on CNN, Yahoo, New York Times and others.  We have to educate the public.  Perhaps some of that will come if Tom wins this suit, but it should be out there already.  The mind-control and damage they are getting away with is unbelieveable!
 
 why isn't there more interest from the media?  I'm frustrated and disappointed too.  I was on vacation for a couple of weeks and mostly "unplugged" from the media etc and when I came back it seemed I really had to search for the story.  Almost like it was a non story.  What gives?  


   


            
 
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UPDATE on Seminary Problems
by Timber
Big Bang Theory Proven--Validation for this Scientist's Life's Work--Beautiful!
by blueazure
Knock on the Door and Bad Memory
by WinstonSmith
I could use some help!
by son of perdition
Looking for fellow lost souls
by Ninon de Lenclos
Mormon Church sending people DNA test kits but refusing to comment on results?
by OldSoul
Couldn't a real prophet find that plane?
by Bold Wish
I need help more than LDS corp.
by victim
Mormon kitsch
by huehuetenango
A Daring Statement by an 8-year-old
by haylee
This is Hard
by Tincan 

  
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OCTOBER CONFERENCE
"Past, Present, and Possibilities"
Oct. 18-20, 2013




















 


Financial Report for 2011 to Date

Financial Report for 2010 to Date

Financial Report for 2009

Twin Falls Newspaper Article

Twin Falls Billboard

Financial Report for 2009 to Date




The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]

Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]

Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]



Portland Oregon meetup
[Portland Post-Mor...] 
Las Vegas March Meetup! Sunday 16th 1pm
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
[Palmetto Post-Mor...] 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (3/2)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
March Get Together
[Idaho Falls Post-...] 
San Diego lunch this Sunday at noon!
[San Diego Post-Mo...] 
March 2nd 2014-Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
FEB 22 - First ever Boston Meeting!
[Boston, MA Post-M...] 
Every Sunday in Utah
[Salt Lake City Po...] 
February Meetup Sunday the 16th 2:00pm Grand Cafe at Sunset Station
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
Secret FB group and dinner social
[East Tennessee Po...] 
Feb 2nd Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series
[Southern Utah Pos...] 


General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
Swearing Elder

General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
dovahkiyn

February Meetup Sunday the 16th 2:00pm Grand Cafe at Sunset Station
onendagus

Visitors welcome !
priorvej12

Las Vegas meetup Sun Jan 12th 1pm at Milos in Boulder City
onendagus

January 5th- Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series
gypsyrose

Book of Mormon Tories
by Tom Donofrio 
Book of Mormon Tories
by Nogginus Skepticalus 
Native American DNA
by GTM 
Ongoing Monthly Gatherings!
Reuben

Ongoing Monthly Gatherings!
Virginia Steve

CALM meet up for June
4bagel

Revised NW Women's Retreat Announcement
lunaverse

Austin Fall Party
lightrider702

Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
by Timo 
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by ExMoNemo 
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by Mikki B 
Resignation Letter to My Family
Mikki B

Resignation Letter to My Family
Waveoftruth

Resignation Letter to My Family
In search of Truth

Carolina PostMo Night: “The Master"
Swearing Elder

Washington D.C. Post-Mormon Lunch - August 28
freckles

Resignation Letter to My Family
INRETROSPECT

Financial Report for 2011 to Date
by Jeff Ricks 
Resignation Letter to My Family
pennw


            

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Chapters in Utah

Cache Valley Post-Mormons
 Calm of N. Davis County and Weber County Post-Mormons
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 Calm of Utah County Post-Mormons
 Long Valley Post-Mormons
 Millard County Post-Mormons
 New Hope Post-Mormons of Weber Co.
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 Chapters in Europe

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Topic Title Replies Views Latest Post Info
 How the con man and the mormon church are similar
Author: thedesertrat 2 149  
Posted: 03-03-2014 01:04 PM
Author: Ninon de Lenclos 


 The Best of LD$ “Thought Stoppers” and “Mind Control”...
Author: WinstonSmith 2 229  
Posted: 03-03-2014 11:07 AM
Author: Matter Unorganized 


 South Carolina PostMo Gathering: Sunday, April 6th
Author: Swearing Elder 0 135  
Posted: 03-03-2014 09:46 AM
Author: Swearing Elder 


 Mike Lee donated his paycheck during the “shutdown” to various charities, Orrin Hatch to LDS church…which one will do the most good?
Author: Tessa 1 128  
Posted: 03-03-2014 09:40 AM
Author: Elder OldDog 


 Has anyone heard the story of John Wesley Powell destroying evidence of previous civilizations?
Author: Tessa 3 404  
Posted: 03-03-2014 08:51 AM
Author: Tessa 


 This is What Real Goodness Looks Like.  These Guys Put the Leaders of the Mormon Church to Shame.
Author: Strong Free & Thankful 25 1034  
Posted: 03-03-2014 07:24 AM
Author: Strong Free & Thankful 


 How did you end up in TSCC in the first place?
Author: MauEvig 21 683  
Posted: 03-02-2014 08:17 PM
Author: Kori 


 Rick Grunder’s “Mormon Parallels” now at a bargain price!
Author: RPackham 2 263  
Posted: 03-02-2014 09:48 AM
Author: Ninon de Lenclos 


 Scared no matter which way I look at it
Author: claire2 37 1212  
Posted: 03-02-2014 12:03 AM
Author: claire2 


 Post Mormon Gay Pride/ marriage equality
Author: fled Utah 6 394  
Posted: 03-01-2014 08:16 PM
Author: dave (e_nomo) 


 NY Times article about women & TSCC; a fun read!
Author: Elder OldDog 3 448  
Posted: 03-01-2014 07:27 PM
Author: MauEvig 


 Everything I ever wanted to know about mormonism I learned from Battlestar Galactica: New AP article about mormons not getting their own planets
Author: Silver Girl 1 354  
Posted: 03-01-2014 06:20 PM
Author: Tessa 


 Becoming Like God…who are the authors?
Author: Life Rocks 16 809  
Posted: 03-01-2014 12:44 PM
Author: Truth Matters 


 Are We One Step Closer to Reading Human’s Minds As Well As Dogs Minds?  If So, Can We Strap One Of These On the GA’s Heads Soon?
Author: Strong Free & Thankful 6 342  
Posted: 03-01-2014 07:42 AM
Author: former victim 


 Romney’s racist demonization of 47% of the population examined on Moyer’s Journal last night
Author: Kori 0 267  
Posted: 03-01-2014 07:34 AM
Author: Kori 


 Reference to Mormon leaders saying it is OK to question
Author: Laman and Lemon 4 371  
Posted: 02-28-2014 05:13 PM
Author: GraciesDaddy 


 National Geographic- March Anti Mormon Edition
Author: skeptic 3 573  
Posted: 02-28-2014 05:11 PM
Author: GraciesDaddy 


 Anyone know of any ex-Mormon marriage counselor in Provo/Orem area?
Author: debitsandcredits 0 157  
Posted: 02-28-2014 03:20 PM
Author: debitsandcredits 


 Dan Vogel videos on the Anthon Manuscript
Author: MormonThink 0 183  
Posted: 02-28-2014 01:53 PM
Author: MormonThink 


 Yippppeeeee!
Author: Mayerbabe 12 599  
Posted: 02-28-2014 01:21 PM
Author: Mayerbabe 


 Encouraging News Story
Author: Sossy 2 420  
Posted: 02-28-2014 12:48 PM
Author: Sossy 


 Modesty as it pertains to a seven year old.
Author: how is this my life 2 269  
Posted: 02-28-2014 10:36 AM
Author: Silver Girl 


 Louis C.K. is the man
Author: dovahkiyn 0 258  
Posted: 02-28-2014 07:24 AM
Author: dovahkiyn 


 Patriarchal Blessings - Why?
Author: Mrs. Jello Salad 24 704  
Posted: 02-28-2014 05:41 AM
Author: Dogzilla Joy 


 Is There One Thing That Convinced You Of The Falsity of Mormonism (Or Convinced You To Leave)
Author: Iridium 13 416  
Posted: 02-27-2014 04:41 PM
Author: Mayerbabe 


 Dear Mormonism—excellent letter
Author: Quartersawn 4 476  
Posted: 02-27-2014 01:41 PM
Author: Iridium 


 God would never let a prophet lead us astray. . .
Author: barelythere 11 633  
Posted: 02-27-2014 12:56 PM
Author: Ninon de Lenclos 


 An Answer for Everything: How LDS prophets and apostles are completely incapable of silence on issues they don’t understand, and why it has cost them
Author: Tipsy_Moroni 4 386  
Posted: 02-27-2014 09:12 AM
Author: Silver Girl 


 Why no LDS/Religion degree at BYU?
Author: Nephi 16 1056  
Posted: 02-27-2014 08:52 AM
Author: Mrs. Jello Salad 


 Has TSCC made it known where they stand on ...
Author: Elder OldDog 6 386  
Posted: 02-27-2014 08:44 AM
Author: Tessa 


 Does sh-t happen or is there a heavenly plan?
Author: Elder OldDog 22 697  
Posted: 02-27-2014 08:38 AM
Author: Tessa 


 Joined Post Mormon 4 years ago today!
Author: SuziQ 4 249  
Posted: 02-26-2014 05:39 PM
Author: Mayerbabe 


 More pieces of the Mormon puzzle..Dehlin interviews #426.427,428 & 429 Community of Christ history
Author: Life Rocks 5 384  
Posted: 02-26-2014 01:21 PM
Author: Ex_aedibus 


 Brain-washed 8-year-old sister… [life update]
Author: haylee 6 346  
Posted: 02-26-2014 01:13 PM
Author: haylee 


 Stories of feeling threatened or exploited over tithing.
Author: rain 20 1127  
Posted: 02-26-2014 12:00 PM
Author: Free2Live 



  
   

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Just when things start to go well.......
by finex
Wine was different in Jesus time
by finex
Depression After Resignation
by finex
Church asks activist group to reconsider plans to protest GC
by Brad (ZeeZrom)
"Katie Finds a Better Way": A Story for the "Friend" and Musicalkate (New Link)
by Brad (ZeeZrom)
Spin off Post "Cleaning House" - Genealogy
by quietlydifferent
Cleaning House
by blueazure
I finally bumped into some Mormon missionaries!
by Matter Unorganized
Scientology Ripped Family Apart-- Doubting (Could have an article like this on the news every night about Mormonism)
by Strong Free & Thankful
UPDATE on Seminary Problems
by Timber
Big Bang Theory Proven--Validation for this Scientist's Life's Work--Beautiful!
by blueazure
Knock on the Door and Bad Memory
by WinstonSmith
I could use some help!
by son of perdition
Looking for fellow lost souls
by Ninon de Lenclos
Mormon Church sending people DNA test kits but refusing to comment on results?
by OldSoul
Couldn't a real prophet find that plane?
by Bold Wish
I need help more than LDS corp.
by victim
Mormon kitsch
by huehuetenango
A Daring Statement by an 8-year-old
by haylee
This is Hard
by Tincan 

  
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OCTOBER CONFERENCE
"Past, Present, and Possibilities"
Oct. 18-20, 2013




















 


Financial Report for 2011 to Date

Financial Report for 2010 to Date

Financial Report for 2009

Twin Falls Newspaper Article

Twin Falls Billboard

Financial Report for 2009 to Date




The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]

Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]

Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]



Portland Oregon meetup
[Portland Post-Mor...] 
Las Vegas March Meetup! Sunday 16th 1pm
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
[Palmetto Post-Mor...] 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (3/2)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
March Get Together
[Idaho Falls Post-...] 
San Diego lunch this Sunday at noon!
[San Diego Post-Mo...] 
March 2nd 2014-Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
FEB 22 - First ever Boston Meeting!
[Boston, MA Post-M...] 
Every Sunday in Utah
[Salt Lake City Po...] 
February Meetup Sunday the 16th 2:00pm Grand Cafe at Sunset Station
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
Secret FB group and dinner social
[East Tennessee Po...] 
Feb 2nd Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series
[Southern Utah Pos...] 


General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
Swearing Elder

General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
dovahkiyn

February Meetup Sunday the 16th 2:00pm Grand Cafe at Sunset Station
onendagus

Visitors welcome !
priorvej12

Las Vegas meetup Sun Jan 12th 1pm at Milos in Boulder City
onendagus

January 5th- Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series
gypsyrose

Book of Mormon Tories
by Tom Donofrio 
Book of Mormon Tories
by Nogginus Skepticalus 
Native American DNA
by GTM 
Ongoing Monthly Gatherings!
Reuben

Ongoing Monthly Gatherings!
Virginia Steve

CALM meet up for June
4bagel

Revised NW Women's Retreat Announcement
lunaverse

Austin Fall Party
lightrider702

Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
by Timo 
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by ExMoNemo 
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by Mikki B 
Resignation Letter to My Family
Mikki B

Resignation Letter to My Family
Waveoftruth

Resignation Letter to My Family
In search of Truth

Carolina PostMo Night: “The Master"
Swearing Elder

Washington D.C. Post-Mormon Lunch - August 28
freckles

Resignation Letter to My Family
INRETROSPECT

Financial Report for 2011 to Date
by Jeff Ricks 
Resignation Letter to My Family
pennw


            

Home Our Community
Discussion Forums
    · The Community Forum
 Post-Mormon Chapters

Chapters in Utah

Cache Valley Post-Mormons
 Calm of N. Davis County and Weber County Post-Mormons
 Calm of South Davis County Post-Mormons
 Calm of Utah County Post-Mormons
 Long Valley Post-Mormons
 Millard County Post-Mormons
 New Hope Post-Mormons of Weber Co.
 Salt Lake City Post-Mormons
 Sanpete County Post-Mormons
 Southern Utah Post Mormon Association
 Uintah Basin Post-Mormons
 USU Post-Mormons
 Other chapters in the USA

Chapters in Canada

Calgary Post-Mormons
 Canada Edmonton Post-Mormon
 Fraser Valley Post-Mormons
 GTA Canada Post-Mormons
 Lethbridge Canada Post-Mormons
 Victoria British Columbia Post-Mormons
 Chapters in Europe

Denmark Post-Mormons
 France Post-Mormons
 North United Kingdom Post-Mormons
 Norway Post Mormons
 Scotland Post-Mormons
 Sweden Post-Mormons
 Switzerland Post-Mormons
 UK Post-Mormons
 All other chapters

New Zealand Post-Mormons
 Post-Mormons Down Under
 World Map of Chapter Locations
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 Our Library
It Gets Better!
 Post-Mormon Magazine
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Post-Mormon News Blog
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Forum Home  >  Member Forums  >  The Community Forum 
   It gets better! Resources to help with coping 
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Advanced Search     

 
6 of 1089 « First Prev 4 5 6 7 8 Next Last »
   

Topic Title Replies Views Latest Post Info
 Where’s Joseph Smith when you need him?
Author: Matter Unorganized 4 267  
Posted: 02-26-2014 09:21 AM
Author: Tessa 


 Sunday school lessons—pre versus post correlation
Author: ldshistorybuff 4 335  
Posted: 02-26-2014 08:24 AM
Author: Tessa 


 Twitch Plays Pokemon - evolution of religion
Author: dovahkiyn 0 147  
Posted: 02-26-2014 07:22 AM
Author: dovahkiyn 


 Quick update on things in my world…..
Author: WanderingGeek 1 174  
Posted: 02-26-2014 07:08 AM
Author: Mrs. Jello Salad 


 Last Sunday’s Gospel Message
Author: rain 3 313  
Posted: 02-26-2014 12:03 AM
Author: Robby Sunshine 


 William Woods’ Museum?
Author: sl-skipper 3 183  
Posted: 02-25-2014 09:39 PM
Author: Elder OldDog 


 I’m a world reknown artist…I’m a rocket scientist…I’m a superbowl champion quarter back and I’m a Mormon?
Author: Life Rocks 15 1027  
Posted: 02-25-2014 03:42 PM
Author: Born Free 


 OT:  4 Things That Are Great ForThe Heart and 4 Things That Are Terrible
Author: Strong Free & Thankful 5 323  
Posted: 02-25-2014 03:30 PM
Author: Strong Free & Thankful 


 Controversy Over Ensign Article
Author: smoozy 40 2256  
Posted: 02-25-2014 01:13 PM
Author: smoozy 


 Billy Joel song written for post-Mormons
Author: Jeff Ricks 5 302  
Posted: 02-25-2014 11:13 AM
Author: Mayerbabe 


 Southern Utah PostMormon Association Lecture March 2nd- Should be Outstanding!
Author: skeptic 0 148  
Posted: 02-25-2014 09:21 AM
Author: skeptic 


 Introducing Mormon Missionary Secrets Facebook page
Author: captainmoroni 1 448  
Posted: 02-25-2014 04:21 AM
Author: Swearing Elder 


 It’s surprising that any of us are normal after this stuff
Author: Hitchen's Razor 7 480  
Posted: 02-24-2014 05:38 PM
Author: Hitchen's Razor 


 M. Scott Peck Quote
Author: Mayerbabe 4 297  
Posted: 02-24-2014 05:35 PM
Author: Mayerbabe 


 Wny no accounts of missionary activity to the Native Americans?
Author: Nephi 9 564  
Posted: 02-24-2014 03:05 PM
Author: tapirrider 


 A genetic atlas of human admixture history
Author: kinderhooker 1 109  
Posted: 02-24-2014 02:34 PM
Author: Krush 


 Suggestions please-Sexual attraction and the Church
Author: plumeria2014 22 1020  
Posted: 02-24-2014 12:38 PM
Author: plumeria2014 


 Jerk off Mormons slammed in Real Time by Bill Maher
Author: Kori 12 863  
Posted: 02-24-2014 10:56 AM
Author: Kori 


 Debunking FAIR - a sequel to ‘Letter to a CES Director’
Author: MormonThink 8 686  
Posted: 02-24-2014 10:22 AM
Author: Celestial Wedgie 


 Local Singles Ward must be hurting…
Author: RobinM 9 645  
Posted: 02-24-2014 07:45 AM
Author: Tessa 


 Suicide Attempts?
Author: Youngsinglerunning 25 997  
Posted: 02-24-2014 07:44 AM
Author: Strong Free & Thankful 


 Elder Fus Ro Dah
Author: Elder Skelter 25 929  
Posted: 02-24-2014 07:43 AM
Author: Tessa 


 Hazardous Mormon Dangers
Author: josephs myth 1 1106  
Posted: 02-24-2014 04:13 AM
Author: josephs myth 


 Lawsuit against LDS Church :  Baptism of the Dead & anti-masturbation propaganda   ( 1 2)
Author: Francois Morin 42 12691  
Posted: 02-23-2014 08:15 PM
Author: Celestial Wedgie 


 Mormons to use technology in missionary work MSNBC article
Author: Life Rocks 31 1676  
Posted: 02-23-2014 03:24 PM
Author: Elder OldDog 


 LDS insular thinking and living…no wonder they think the way they do.
Author: Life Rocks 6 446  
Posted: 02-23-2014 12:36 PM
Author: Sossy 


 Crazy Mormon blogger sees “Gay agenda” in Disney’s “Frozen”
Author: evil_archer 12 806  
Posted: 02-23-2014 11:56 AM
Author: wesmanlv 


 Bill Maher making fun of the anti-masturbation commercial
Author: Bluesed 2 324  
Posted: 02-23-2014 09:38 AM
Author: priorvej12 


 Tonight in SLC - WINE 101 class for new exmormons
Author: Rodolfo 1 201  
Posted: 02-22-2014 02:45 PM
Author: GraciesDaddy 


 Changing Religions - Various reasons why
Author: Mrs. Jello Salad 7 510  
Posted: 02-22-2014 09:38 AM
Author: NoMorKulAde 


 Crazy Orem mom buys T-shirts to protect the youth
Author: SuziQ 40 1329  
Posted: 02-22-2014 12:53 AM
Author: Tincan 


 “Muslim leaders issue a fatwa against anyone living on Mars as there is ‘no righteous reason’ to be there” (link)
Author: CdnXMo 0 268  
Posted: 02-21-2014 11:49 PM
Author: CdnXMo 


 Holocaust Crimes & MMM
Author: Free2Live 2 215  
Posted: 02-21-2014 04:03 PM
Author: Free2Live 


 Who are you?   ( 1 2 3)
Author: Aleut 91 4242  
Posted: 02-21-2014 03:52 PM
Author: The Bishop's Son 


 TV Opportunity
Author: joshinthedesert 6 513  
Posted: 02-21-2014 07:45 AM
Author: former victim 



  
   

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Total members: 9408 


Just when things start to go well.......
by finex
Wine was different in Jesus time
by finex
Depression After Resignation
by finex
Church asks activist group to reconsider plans to protest GC
by Brad (ZeeZrom)
"Katie Finds a Better Way": A Story for the "Friend" and Musicalkate (New Link)
by Brad (ZeeZrom)
Spin off Post "Cleaning House" - Genealogy
by quietlydifferent
Cleaning House
by blueazure
I finally bumped into some Mormon missionaries!
by Matter Unorganized
Scientology Ripped Family Apart-- Doubting (Could have an article like this on the news every night about Mormonism)
by Strong Free & Thankful
UPDATE on Seminary Problems
by Timber
Big Bang Theory Proven--Validation for this Scientist's Life's Work--Beautiful!
by blueazure
Knock on the Door and Bad Memory
by WinstonSmith
I could use some help!
by son of perdition
Looking for fellow lost souls
by Ninon de Lenclos
Mormon Church sending people DNA test kits but refusing to comment on results?
by OldSoul
Couldn't a real prophet find that plane?
by Bold Wish
I need help more than LDS corp.
by victim
Mormon kitsch
by huehuetenango
A Daring Statement by an 8-year-old
by haylee
This is Hard
by Tincan 

  
This page is loading.
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OCTOBER CONFERENCE
"Past, Present, and Possibilities"
Oct. 18-20, 2013




















 


Financial Report for 2011 to Date

Financial Report for 2010 to Date

Financial Report for 2009

Twin Falls Newspaper Article

Twin Falls Billboard

Financial Report for 2009 to Date




The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]

Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]

Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]



Portland Oregon meetup
[Portland Post-Mor...] 
Las Vegas March Meetup! Sunday 16th 1pm
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
[Palmetto Post-Mor...] 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (3/2)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
March Get Together
[Idaho Falls Post-...] 
San Diego lunch this Sunday at noon!
[San Diego Post-Mo...] 
March 2nd 2014-Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
FEB 22 - First ever Boston Meeting!
[Boston, MA Post-M...] 
Every Sunday in Utah
[Salt Lake City Po...] 
February Meetup Sunday the 16th 2:00pm Grand Cafe at Sunset Station
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
Secret FB group and dinner social
[East Tennessee Po...] 
Feb 2nd Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series
[Southern Utah Pos...] 


General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
Swearing Elder

General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
dovahkiyn

February Meetup Sunday the 16th 2:00pm Grand Cafe at Sunset Station
onendagus

Visitors welcome !
priorvej12

Las Vegas meetup Sun Jan 12th 1pm at Milos in Boulder City
onendagus

January 5th- Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series
gypsyrose

Book of Mormon Tories
by Tom Donofrio 
Book of Mormon Tories
by Nogginus Skepticalus 
Native American DNA
by GTM 
Ongoing Monthly Gatherings!
Reuben

Ongoing Monthly Gatherings!
Virginia Steve

CALM meet up for June
4bagel

Revised NW Women's Retreat Announcement
lunaverse

Austin Fall Party
lightrider702

Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
by Timo 
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by ExMoNemo 
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by Mikki B 
Resignation Letter to My Family
Mikki B

Resignation Letter to My Family
Waveoftruth

Resignation Letter to My Family
In search of Truth

Carolina PostMo Night: “The Master"
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freckles

Resignation Letter to My Family
INRETROSPECT

Financial Report for 2011 to Date
by Jeff Ricks 
Resignation Letter to My Family
pennw


            

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 Dysfunction In Mormon Relationships
Author: josephs myth 0 329  
Posted: 02-21-2014 04:37 AM
Author: josephs myth 


 I Doubt It…Blog Entry
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Posted: 02-20-2014 05:04 PM
Author: Celestial Wedgie 


 Gay Mormon History!
Author: Elder OldDog 1 265  
Posted: 02-20-2014 04:49 PM
Author: nessid 


 The Mantle versus Opinion
Author: Penguin 2 236  
Posted: 02-20-2014 03:05 PM
Author: Elder OldDog 


 A Mormon Blog I think I like
Author: bjohn 1 298  
Posted: 02-20-2014 12:54 PM
Author: MsGabbie 


 Today on Radio West @11 AM- A look into the Succession Crisis
Author: skeptic 1 285  
Posted: 02-20-2014 10:42 AM
Author: skeptic 


 Want to know…? Ask a Mormon!
Author: Troubled Wife 6 789  
Posted: 02-19-2014 09:43 PM
Author: how is this my life 


 You Asked Me to Return and Report…Here it is…
Author: Mayerbabe 15 1021  
Posted: 02-19-2014 06:01 PM
Author: kinderhooker 


 Influential Member Database
Author: Lord of Darkness 5 411  
Posted: 02-19-2014 02:02 PM
Author: WinstonSmith 


 Tom Phillips is asking for donations
Author: scotchipman 17 1073  
Posted: 02-19-2014 01:13 PM
Author: Mayerbabe 


 What do you think of this?
Author: DaveManCan 5 438  
Posted: 02-19-2014 10:35 AM
Author: Silver Girl 


 A Shout Out to Jeff Ricks and PostMormon.org & Company
Author: Strong Free & Thankful 8 415  
Posted: 02-19-2014 10:10 AM
Author: MormonThink 


 Stories from the Ys!  Or how weird were my college years…
Author: Elder OldDog 9 669  
Posted: 02-19-2014 09:32 AM
Author: mariejo 


 Hardcore Morm
Author: josephs myth 0 332  
Posted: 02-19-2014 03:48 AM
Author: josephs myth 


 Ensign Article About Noah
Author: smoozy 4 448  
Posted: 02-18-2014 09:34 PM
Author: Quartersawn 


 Post on RfM today: “Bishop Asks for More Missionary Funds, TBM Wife Reacts” (text, link and related info.)
Author: CdnXMo 2 384  
Posted: 02-18-2014 07:10 PM
Author: peace out 


 Do Any TBMs Know about the ‘Monson Fraud Summons’?
Author: WinstonSmith 21 1129  
Posted: 02-18-2014 05:30 PM
Author: plumeria2014 


 Obsolescence?
Author: Aleut 5 609  
Posted: 02-18-2014 05:03 PM
Author: Celestial Wedgie 


 Trib Talk: Mormons, weddings, and temples
Author: smoozy 3 262  
Posted: 02-18-2014 11:07 AM
Author: priorvej12 


 Missionary Work adversely impacted by Monson Criminal Case
Author: anointed one 24 1689  
Posted: 02-18-2014 08:09 AM
Author: MishMagnet 


 Son Wants to Get Baptized - What Should I Do?
Author: RunningFree 18 883  
Posted: 02-17-2014 07:58 PM
Author: priorvej12 


 Minor semantics regarding Tom Phillips…
Author: redbullet750 8 602  
Posted: 02-17-2014 07:49 PM
Author: Strong Free & Thankful 


 How creationism [mormonism] imprisons the mind
Author: Schyzm 10 786  
Posted: 02-17-2014 06:46 PM
Author: Lloyd Dobler 


 We Left 7 Days Ago, Now What?
Author: Mayerbabe 17 1024  
Posted: 02-17-2014 06:32 PM
Author: MauEvig 


 Enfin! Des preuves des juifs en Amérique Centrale!
Author: scaredycat 14 645  
Posted: 02-17-2014 04:54 PM
Author: priorvej12 


 God’s Meeting Minutes: Multiply and Replenish the Earth—The Talk
Author: Tokens4sale 9 599  
Posted: 02-17-2014 04:07 PM
Author: Rational Basis 


 Church people being good so far…....
Author: WanderingGeek 2 360  
Posted: 02-17-2014 02:00 PM
Author: mariejo 


 Philadelphia skyscraper
Author: Bonneville2003 1 188  
Posted: 02-17-2014 01:22 PM
Author: priorvej12 


 OT:  So Many Good Things Are Happening:  Hope for PostMos With Word Getting Out & Hope for America
Author: Strong Free & Thankful 1 345  
Posted: 02-17-2014 01:09 PM
Author: Free2Live 


 Parley P. Pratt’s very 1850s vision of the after life spirit world
Author: ldshistorybuff 0 314  
Posted: 02-17-2014 12:56 PM
Author: ldshistorybuff 


 I finally added an Avitar
Author: WinstonSmith 1 204  
Posted: 02-17-2014 12:11 PM
Author: WanderingGeek 


 Timeline
Author: Curious NeverMo 3 240  
Posted: 02-17-2014 11:43 AM
Author: Matter Unorganized 


 If GA’s Drank Coffee and Tea—They would be Smarter
Author: Strong Free & Thankful 1 255  
Posted: 02-17-2014 11:13 AM
Author: Aleut 


 Interesting Analysis on the Fraud Case
Author: anointed one 6 851  
Posted: 02-17-2014 11:10 AM
Author: skeptic 


 Why Religion Matters: The Longing Within - Mormon News
Author: josephs myth 5 437  
Posted: 02-17-2014 11:08 AM
Author: WinstonSmith 



  
   

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