Thursday, March 20, 2014
postmormon.org discussions part 3
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I Live-Tweeted a Sacrament Meeting Yesterday
Posted: 17 March 2014 08:11 AM [ Ignore ]
Garrett
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I haven't been back to church since early 2012 (I resigned later that year). That said, I have never looked forward to going to church like I was looking forward to it yesterday. I live-tweeted the sacrament meeting and genuinely enjoyed myself. Afterwards I asked the bishop and missionaries about finances, evidence, etc.
You can find the results of my experiment on my blog:
http://diythinking.wordpress.com/2014/03/16/•view-from-the-pew-dispatches-of-a-church-going-atheist-the-mormon-church-of-jesus-christ-of-latter-day-saints/
I hope you have as much fun reliving a typical sacrament meeting as I did tweeting it live.
Cheers!
Posted: 17 March 2014 08:34 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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WanderingGeek
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Interesting Garret....I really enjoyed this! Nicely done!
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Wander, Wanderer, Wandering
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2. To go by an indirect route or at no set pace.
3. To proceed in an irregular course.
4. To go astray.
5. To lose clarity or coherence of thought or expression.
Posted: 17 March 2014 08:43 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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Silverwings
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Posted: 17 March 2014 09:30 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
Destroyingangl
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Well done! It was so spot on, I actually started to drift off after the first youth speaker.
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Posted: 17 March 2014 11:33 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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SweetAs New Zealand
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Great summary Garrett
Now the bearded guy giving the opening prayer. Has the church slackened off its views on facial hair? Or is it an indication that increasing numbers of members are choosing not to conform to such "standards"?
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Posted: 17 March 2014 11:43 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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Elder OldDog
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Man, that brought back some memories! It occurs to me that TBMs are very, very, very forgiving, in that they keep going back for more! It's either a colossal waste of time or it's feeding the Spirit... But they feed the Spirit such crap!!!
Contrast that with Cosmos last night... I'd gone my whole life, up until last night, not knowing a damn thing about tardigrades!!! How can anyone who learns/knows about tradigrades think that the ghawd of the OT is in charge of this world?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tardigrade
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Posted: 17 March 2014 12:04 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
Garrett
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Elder OldDog:
Man, that brought back some memories! It occurs to me that TBMs are very, very, very forgiving, in that they keep going back for more! It's either a colossal waste of time or it's feeding the Spirit... But they feed the Spirit such crap!!!
Contrast that with Cosmos last night... I'd gone my whole life, up until last night, not knowing a damn thing about tardigrades!!! How can anyone who learns/knows about tradigrades think that the ghawd of the OT is in charge of this world?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tardigrade
As the good book says, "And a tardigrade shall lead them."
Tardigrades are as divine as anything.
Thanks for reading--cheers!
Glad you have all enjoyed it so far
Posted: 17 March 2014 12:11 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
mariejo
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Loved every bit of this!!
Posted: 17 March 2014 12:35 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
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Mayerbabe
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Excellent. Although I have to admit that reading the play-by-play made me a bit anxious. I've only been "out" for 2 months and church used to give me anxiety attacks.
Keep up the good work!
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OCTOBER CONFERENCE
"Past, Present, and Possibilities"
Oct. 18-20, 2013
Financial Report for 2011 to Date
Financial Report for 2010 to Date
Financial Report for 2009
Twin Falls Newspaper Article
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Financial Report for 2009 to Date
The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]
Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
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Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]
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In search of Truth
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Resignation Letter to My Family
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New Gilbert Arizona Temple
Posted: 06 January 2014 11:35 AM [ Ignore ]
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NotYourWife
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Hi All!
I haven't posted in ages, but I lurk all the time. I'm a Never-Mo surrounded by Mormons deep in Mormon country Arizona.
I live about 3 miles from the New Gilbert temple that is about to have it's open house It's all over the news, and all the local Mormons are clogging up my FB feed with invitations to join "us" to tour the new Temple and answer questions, of course.
It is a huge, ugly building that you can see for miles. I can see it from my backyard. I have to drive by it to get to Costco and other shopping, it's a huge eyesore IMHO. Especially since I know what happens in there, and know enough about the Morg to know that it is not a place for me.
Anyone else nearby having to look at this monstrosity? or dealing with the same FB spamming?
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Posted: 06 January 2014 01:33 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Lloyd Dobler
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I also live pretty close and drive by all the time to Costco or the 202 etc. They could not have put it closer to the road. It is taller than the Catholic hospital nearby. It is gigantic. My ward said Sunday that they are running out of tickets and are going over 500,000 so far. Everybody in priesthood talked about how amazing it is etc and of course how the Lord is hastening HIS work in Gilbert. (the largest temple built in the last 17 years). They are even having a temple celebration at some high school where the Prophet will be in attendence. All the youth in the temple district will participate in the tradition of putting on a cast of thousands pageant. They are even cancelling young mens and young womens and instead have the kids practicing and getting ready to perform for the Prophet in the shadow of God glorious temple.
Of course, what shadows your backyard is nothing more than a very wealthy corporation building pyramids to impress their members and make them feel like the church is continuing to grow and is successful. It is a monument to not only to the church but also to the local Mormon power brokers. They donated the land, they will be running it, they will be basking in its glory. On the same land, there is also an adjacent stake center with special architecture to match the temple. I mean they are going all out on this whole project.
Mormons will talk as if this temple is some sort of beacon to the world representing God's one true church. As if the very existence of a building somehow brings non members closer to Jesus. What this building really is for is to make members feel special being mormon and to keep paying tithing to an organization that is a winner. Members may have a crappy life and they may pay their tithing before the utility bills (church teaching) but by God they can go inside that temple with its imported marble or mahogany or whatever and feel rich. The temple makes them feel like a winner anyway.
I find the whole thing disgusting.
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William Faulkner drunk and depressed
Dorothy Parker mean, drunk and depressed
And that guy in Seven Years in Tibet turned out to be a nazi
The founding fathers all had slaves, the explorers slaughtered the braves,
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mC8Kf8v2apY
Posted: 06 January 2014 01:36 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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NotYourWife
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Lloyd Dobler:
I also live pretty close and drive by all the time to Costco or the 202 etc. They could not have put it closer to the road. It is taller than the Catholic hospital nearby. It is gigantic. My ward said Sunday that they are running out of tickets and are going over 500,000 so far. Everybody in priesthood talked about how amazing it is etc and of course how the Lord is hastening HIS work in Gilbert. (the largest temple built in the last 17 years). They are even having a temple celebration at some high school where the Prophet will be in attendence. All the youth in the temple district will participate in the tradition of putting on a cast of thousands pageant. They are even cancelling young mens and young womens and instead have the kids practicing and getting ready to perform for the Prophet in the shadow of God glorious temple.
Of course, what shadows your backyard is nothing more than a very wealthy corporation building pyramids to impress their members and make them feel like the church is continuing to grow and is successful. It is a monument to not only to the church but also to the local Mormon power brokers. They donated the land, they will be running it, they will be basking in its glory. On the same land, there is also an adjacent stake center with special architecture to match the temple. I mean they are going all out on this whole project.
Mormons will talk as if this temple is some sort of beacon to the world representing God's one true church. As if the very existence of a building somehow brings non members closer to Jesus. What this building really is for is to make members feel special being mormon and to keep paying tithing to an organization that is a winner. Members may have a crappy life and they may pay their tithing before the utility bills (church teaching) but by God they can go inside that temple with its imported marble or mahogany or whatever and feel rich. The temple makes them feel like a winner anyway.
I find the whole thing disgusting.
I agree, disgusting.
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I’m a Never-Mo
Posted: 06 January 2014 02:57 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
outclassed
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Yes - and it is screwing with the surrounding real estate market and job market and retail market and...
Is all this rapid growth sustainable?
Bubble 2.0?
Posted: 06 January 2014 08:20 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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NotYourWife
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Yes! everyone seems to be flocking to this area! It is pretty congested as it is, I can't imagine it getting worse. The Bed Bath and Beyond that is across the street is selling Framed Temple Prints. Gag. Keep it in the Deseret Book Store, not in my BBB! Today a FB friend posted, "come with me and you too can learn how families can be together forever!". From touring a building? no thank you
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I’m a Never-Mo
Posted: 06 January 2014 10:11 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
bjohn
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Lloyd Dobler:
I also live pretty close and drive by all the time to Costco or the 202 etc. They could not have put it closer to the road. It is taller than the Catholic hospital nearby. It is gigantic. My ward said Sunday that they are running out of tickets and are going over 500,000 so far. Everybody in priesthood talked about how amazing it is etc and of course how the Lord is hastening HIS work in Gilbert. (the largest temple built in the last 17 years). They are even having a temple celebration at some high school where the Prophet will be in attendence. All the youth in the temple district will participate in the tradition of putting on a cast of thousands pageant. They are even cancelling young mens and young womens and instead have the kids practicing and getting ready to perform for the Prophet in the shadow of God glorious temple.
Of course, what shadows your backyard is nothing more than a very wealthy corporation building pyramids to impress their members and make them feel like the church is continuing to grow and is successful. It is a monument to not only to the church but also to the local Mormon power brokers. They donated the land, they will be running it, they will be basking in its glory. On the same land, there is also an adjacent stake center with special architecture to match the temple. I mean they are going all out on this whole project.
Mormons will talk as if this temple is some sort of beacon to the world representing God's one true church. As if the very existence of a building somehow brings non members closer to Jesus. What this building really is for is to make members feel special being mormon and to keep paying tithing to an organization that is a winner. Members may have a crappy life and they may pay their tithing before the utility bills (church teaching) but by God they can go inside that temple with its imported marble or mahogany or whatever and feel rich. The temple makes them feel like a winner anyway.
I find the whole thing disgusting.
It's a "cultural celebration". I saw the one they did in Brigham City. I actually didn't mind watching. I cannot believe the amount of money that went into that thing. One stake had girls in matching dresses, boys in "military" uniforms. At least it was entertaining. They also broadcasted it in local stake centers because there wasn't much room at the high school football field.
Posted: 07 January 2014 05:00 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
Nephi
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So go to the open house and carry a nice red can of Coca Cola as you walk around the grounds. Put a cigarette behind your ear and roll a pack in the sleeve of your TShirt with a slogan supporting Gay Marriage.
No need to light up or drink the coke, just seeing it will set off some of the moralistic types.
Go ahead and tweak the nose of the beast.
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Posted: 07 January 2014 07:11 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
rain
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The building is huge. I guess the church was exempt from the local building codes. (check Google) One piece of information that I read, mentioned that the people who are concerned about the height of the building need not worry because there will be a lot of trees to break down the appearance of it being so huge. ??
Posted: 07 January 2014 07:42 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
St Monica
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Lloyd Dobler:
snip...
Mormons will talk as if this temple is some sort of beacon to the world representing God's one true church. As if the very existence of a building somehow brings non members closer to Jesus. What this building really is for is to make members feel special being mormon and to keep paying tithing to an organization that is a winner. Members may have a crappy life and they may pay their tithing before the utility bills (church teaching) but by God they can go inside that temple with its imported marble or mahogany or whatever and feel rich. The temple makes them feel like a winner anyway.
I find the whole thing disgusting.
On another forum ex-mormons were saying that the inside of temples is not real marble or mahogany and no gold leaf or gilt but yellow paint. Basically that it looks good but is actually cheaply made.
Not true? As a non-mormon I don't have a clue.
Posted: 08 January 2014 07:11 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
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Dadsprimalscream
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I'm nearby but my ex and therefore my children live a stone's throw across the street and actually attend the chapel a 1/2 block to the south. I mean it's so close that when the officiator farts, they can smell it.
I've actually met the family that lives next door to the temple and donated the land. They were super nice and hospitable to me and my kids... although, I don't believe they knew anything of my story.
My kids and I don't talk too much about it, but they're getting the full temple hype from Mom. I don't think I'll even go to the open house. I wrote in my blog why not, but you may have already read it as I posted it here.
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Posted: 08 January 2014 08:01 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
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Lloyd Dobler
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St Monica:
Lloyd Dobler:
snip...
Mormons will talk as if this temple is some sort of beacon to the world representing God's one true church. As if the very existence of a building somehow brings non members closer to Jesus. What this building really is for is to make members feel special being mormon and to keep paying tithing to an organization that is a winner. Members may have a crappy life and they may pay their tithing before the utility bills (church teaching) but by God they can go inside that temple with its imported marble or mahogany or whatever and feel rich. The temple makes them feel like a winner anyway.
I find the whole thing disgusting.
On another forum ex-mormons were saying that the inside of temples is not real marble or mahogany and no gold leaf or gilt but yellow paint. Basically that it looks good but is actually cheaply made.
Not true? As a non-mormon I don't have a clue.
total bullshit, here is some interior info on the Oquirrh temple in stupid south Jordan:
Interior features - Interior stone: Light limestone from Morocco and darker limestone from Egypt. Woods: Rift-cut White Oak solids from Indiana and Kentucky. Veneers: White Oak (doors) and Sycamore from German Alps. Chandeliers: Schonebek with Swarovski Crystal (Celestial Room chandelier is 15 feet tall with 19,447 individual crystals). Bronze handrails: Julius Blum components forged in the United States. Original murals: painted by Church-service missionaries, supervised by Linda Curley Christensen
Now, I have never been in a mini temple and maybe some of the older temples don't are not quite as fancy but still, I mean I have spent a lot of time inside the mesa temple and the inside is pretty damn nice. same with vegas and every other temple I have been in. That Gilbert temple is going to be super fancy inside, although gratefully, I will never see it.
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William Faulkner drunk and depressed
Dorothy Parker mean, drunk and depressed
And that guy in Seven Years in Tibet turned out to be a nazi
The founding fathers all had slaves, the explorers slaughtered the braves,
The Old Testament God can be so petty
Heroes
JIll Sobule
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mC8Kf8v2apY
Posted: 08 January 2014 08:14 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 11 ]
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Lloyd Dobler
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draper temple (from deseret news no less)
The Draper Temple features some interior woodwork made from African wood and limestone on the floors from France. White granite in the temple is from China.
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William Faulkner drunk and depressed
Dorothy Parker mean, drunk and depressed
And that guy in Seven Years in Tibet turned out to be a nazi
The founding fathers all had slaves, the explorers slaughtered the braves,
The Old Testament God can be so petty
Heroes
JIll Sobule
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mC8Kf8v2apY
Posted: 09 January 2014 07:48 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 12 ]
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AprilT
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Other than the Vegas temple I have only been in mini temples. I didn't pay much attention to the materials but I do know the chandelier in the celestial rooms are Swarovski crystal. It took me by surprise when I was told that, which is the only reason I remember it now. It always bothered me how expensive the materials in temples were when so many people were hungry, etc. Such a waste.
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Posted: 09 January 2014 11:08 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 13 ]
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kinderhooker
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Regarding Swarovski crystals, see SNL here.
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Posted: 14 January 2014 02:42 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 14 ]
outclassed
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For your future viewing pleasure...1/17/14
http://www.abc15.com//dpp/about_us/news_releases/gilbert-mormon-temple-abc15-gives-you-rare-look-inside
this ain't your mother's church anymore...
Posted: 14 January 2014 03:23 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 15 ]
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josephs myth
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kinderhooker:
Regarding Swarovski crystals, see SNL here.
You teased another link out of me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zknq-p5x6c4
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Posted: 10 March 2014 02:56 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 16 ]
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So, they had this big youth-only celebration festival for the Gilbert Rameumptom before its dedication...
not CULT like at all...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjQGeawDGvo
http://www.azcentral.com/community/gilbert/articles/20140223gilbert-mormon-temple-youth-celebration.html
http://livetruegilbert.com/
don't get me started on their ridiculous (ironic?) use of the word "cultural"
Posted: 10 March 2014 03:19 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 17 ]
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Mayerbabe
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This thread hits close to home for me, in all senses. I'm a Gilbert High graduate, all of my family is still in the area, and I own a home a stone's throw from the new temple as well.
I'm thinking we need to have a Gilbert Post-Mo get together when I come to town the week of April 1st!!! San Tan restaurant? Any takers?! Hubby and I are fresh out of TSCC, so we're anxious to meet other like-minded people.
My nieces were in the CULTural celebration, my brother is a Bishop in the area, and my parents are now proud temple workers inside said temple.
My facebook feed was gagging on all the related posts last week, but gratefully, things have quieted down this week. And of course all of this hype was happening right at the time of our resignation last month. Go figure.
Plain and simple, temple = more $$ generated from the "faithful" in the area. Temples are investments in the corporation.
And they've got my family...hook, line, and sinker.
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Posted: 11 March 2014 10:34 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 18 ]
Ex_aedibus
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My nephew was among the kids dancing for the amusement of the Profit. I saw a little of it. It sort of reminded of the Mass Games in North Korea with the Dear Leader and all.
One of my sisters went to the open house. Her sons called the baptismal font a hot tub, lol!
Posted: 12 March 2014 06:05 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 19 ]
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Mayerbabe:
And they've got my family...hook, line, and sinker.
That is the worst feeling. I know we joke about this new temple. But I know it is bring up a lot of sad, lonely, angry, stressful feeling for so many AZ post mormons. My in laws live next to the new AZ temple in the Glendale area that opens i think later this year. They HATED AZ and their house and neighborhood and even the west in general --- until the temple annoucement. Now, they can never live anywhere ever again because God answered their prayers. It is hard for these situations to not remind us of the riff between us. Hook, line and sinker. Yuck. So, every though we joke, I hear you. This sucks. I'm sorry.
Posted: 13 March 2014 09:10 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 20 ]
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Lloyd Dobler:
St Monica:
Lloyd Dobler:
snip...
Mormons will talk as if this temple is some sort of beacon to the world representing God's one true church. As if the very existence of a building somehow brings non members closer to Jesus. What this building really is for is to make members feel special being mormon and to keep paying tithing to an organization that is a winner. Members may have a crappy life and they may pay their tithing before the utility bills (church teaching) but by God they can go inside that temple with its imported marble or mahogany or whatever and feel rich. The temple makes them feel like a winner anyway.
I find the whole thing disgusting.
On another forum ex-mormons were saying that the inside of temples is not real marble or mahogany and no gold leaf or gilt but yellow paint. Basically that it looks good but is actually cheaply made.
Not true? As a non-mormon I don't have a clue.
total bullshit, here is some interior info on the Oquirrh temple in stupid south Jordan:
Interior features - Interior stone: Light limestone from Morocco and darker limestone from Egypt. Woods: Rift-cut White Oak solids from Indiana and Kentucky. Veneers: White Oak (doors) and Sycamore from German Alps. Chandeliers: Schonebek with Swarovski Crystal (Celestial Room chandelier is 15 feet tall with 19,447 individual crystals). Bronze handrails: Julius Blum components forged in the United States. Original murals: painted by Church-service missionaries, supervised by Linda Curley Christensen
Now, I have never been in a mini temple and maybe some of the older temples don't are not quite as fancy but still, I mean I have spent a lot of time inside the mesa temple and the inside is pretty damn nice. same with vegas and every other temple I have been in. That Gilbert temple is going to be super fancy inside, although gratefully, I will never see it.
The church spends an incredible amount of money on the temple finishes. The stone comes from all over the world. The fabrics come from Italy and other places. The wood is often imported. And yes, the gold leaf paint is real gold leaf. Basically, everything in there is the finest that can be bought or made. If you knew the actual price tag of one of those buildings, it would knock you off your chair.
And in the 3rd world nations, they are just as elaborate. The money the church spends on one building could feed & clothe the poor in one of those countries for a decade. Instead, they put all the money in granite and gold, then CHARGE those poor people 1/10th of their income to come inside.
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Posted: 13 March 2014 10:29 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 21 ]
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Matter Unorganized
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Adversarys Advocate:
Lloyd Dobler:
St Monica:
Lloyd Dobler:
snip...
Mormons will talk as if this temple is some sort of beacon to the world representing God's one true church. As if the very existence of a building somehow brings non members closer to Jesus. What this building really is for is to make members feel special being mormon and to keep paying tithing to an organization that is a winner. Members may have a crappy life and they may pay their tithing before the utility bills (church teaching) but by God they can go inside that temple with its imported marble or mahogany or whatever and feel rich. The temple makes them feel like a winner anyway.
I find the whole thing disgusting.
On another forum ex-mormons were saying that the inside of temples is not real marble or mahogany and no gold leaf or gilt but yellow paint. Basically that it looks good but is actually cheaply made.
Not true? As a non-mormon I don't have a clue.
total bullshit, here is some interior info on the Oquirrh temple in stupid south Jordan:
Interior features - Interior stone: Light limestone from Morocco and darker limestone from Egypt. Woods: Rift-cut White Oak solids from Indiana and Kentucky. Veneers: White Oak (doors) and Sycamore from German Alps. Chandeliers: Schonebek with Swarovski Crystal (Celestial Room chandelier is 15 feet tall with 19,447 individual crystals). Bronze handrails: Julius Blum components forged in the United States. Original murals: painted by Church-service missionaries, supervised by Linda Curley Christensen
Now, I have never been in a mini temple and maybe some of the older temples don't are not quite as fancy but still, I mean I have spent a lot of time inside the mesa temple and the inside is pretty damn nice. same with vegas and every other temple I have been in. That Gilbert temple is going to be super fancy inside, although gratefully, I will never see it.
The church spends an incredible amount of money on the temple finishes. The stone comes from all over the world. The fabrics come from Italy and other places. The wood is often imported. And yes, the gold leaf paint is real gold leaf. Basically, everything in there is the finest that can be bought or made. If you knew the actual price tag of one of those buildings, it would knock you off your chair.
And in the 3rd world nations, they are just as elaborate. The money the church spends on one building could feed & clothe the poor in one of those countries for a decade. Instead, they put all the money in granite and gold, then CHARGE those poor people 1/10th of their income to come inside.
If only they'd spend money on an imaginative architect. The best word for these buildings is BORING. Better yet, spend nothing on anything. Give me back my money!
And the craftsmanship, while pretty on the surface, can be shoddy underneath. There's a staircase in the local McTemple (DW dragged me to the open house) and I'm surprised the railing hasn't collapsed yet. It was totally wobbly. It's a lawsuit waiting to happen. No, wait. TBMs wouldn't sue the church. If it happened in the temple, it must have been their god's will.
But the TBMs make me gag the way they gush over a new temple. It could be made out of dung with flies coming off it, and they would tell us how beautiful it is. The emperor truly has no clothes.
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Posted: 13 March 2014 03:04 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 22 ]
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Tessa
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*Just thinking about all that money wasted on fancy woods, gilt paint, wool carpet and fancy furniture...and how that could have been used to help the handicapped, homeless, widows, hospitals, illnesses...* What would Jesus think? The same thing he thought about Sadducees and Pharacees.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin
Posted: 14 March 2014 08:05 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 23 ]
Ex_aedibus
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Matter Unorganized:
Adversarys Advocate:
Lloyd Dobler:
St Monica:
Lloyd Dobler:
snip...
Mormons will talk as if this temple is some sort of beacon to the world representing God's one true church. As if the very existence of a building somehow brings non members closer to Jesus. What this building really is for is to make members feel special being mormon and to keep paying tithing to an organization that is a winner. Members may have a crappy life and they may pay their tithing before the utility bills (church teaching) but by God they can go inside that temple with its imported marble or mahogany or whatever and feel rich. The temple makes them feel like a winner anyway.
I find the whole thing disgusting.
On another forum ex-mormons were saying that the inside of temples is not real marble or mahogany and no gold leaf or gilt but yellow paint. Basically that it looks good but is actually cheaply made.
Not true? As a non-mormon I don't have a clue.
total bullshit, here is some interior info on the Oquirrh temple in stupid south Jordan:
Interior features - Interior stone: Light limestone from Morocco and darker limestone from Egypt. Woods: Rift-cut White Oak solids from Indiana and Kentucky. Veneers: White Oak (doors) and Sycamore from German Alps. Chandeliers: Schonebek with Swarovski Crystal (Celestial Room chandelier is 15 feet tall with 19,447 individual crystals). Bronze handrails: Julius Blum components forged in the United States. Original murals: painted by Church-service missionaries, supervised by Linda Curley Christensen
Now, I have never been in a mini temple and maybe some of the older temples don't are not quite as fancy but still, I mean I have spent a lot of time inside the mesa temple and the inside is pretty damn nice. same with vegas and every other temple I have been in. That Gilbert temple is going to be super fancy inside, although gratefully, I will never see it.
The church spends an incredible amount of money on the temple finishes. The stone comes from all over the world. The fabrics come from Italy and other places. The wood is often imported. And yes, the gold leaf paint is real gold leaf. Basically, everything in there is the finest that can be bought or made. If you knew the actual price tag of one of those buildings, it would knock you off your chair.
And in the 3rd world nations, they are just as elaborate. The money the church spends on one building could feed & clothe the poor in one of those countries for a decade. Instead, they put all the money in granite and gold, then CHARGE those poor people 1/10th of their income to come inside.
If only they'd spend money on an imaginative architect. The best word for these buildings is BORING. Better yet, spend nothing on anything. Give me back my money!
And the craftsmanship, while pretty on the surface, can be shoddy underneath. There's a staircase in the local McTemple (DW dragged me to the open house) and I'm surprised the railing hasn't collapsed yet. It was totally wobbly. It's a lawsuit waiting to happen. No, wait. TBMs wouldn't sue the church. If it happened in the temple, it must have been their god's will.
But the TBMs make me gag the way they gush over a new temple. It could be made out of dung with flies coming off it, and they would tell us how beautiful it is. The emperor truly has no clothes.
Some of the early modern temples, such as the Mesa Arizona one, are interesting. But you're right. Most Mormon architecture is boring when it's not laughable (see Provo Utah Temple).
Posted: 14 March 2014 04:18 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 24 ]
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wesmanlv
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I wish they wouldn't equate 'working' in the temple with doing 'volunteer' work as though working in the temple is really doing something to help the needy, the poor, the sick, etc. Working in a temple is only mere self service.
‹‹ I guess that Mormon bigot can have breakfast the best laid schemes ››
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UPDATE - Mormon Women Want to Attend Priesthood Session
Posted: 29 August 2013 11:39 AM [ Ignore ]
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Lord of Darkness
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Interesting stuff...I don't know how Kate Kelly does this without getting reprimanded at some point. If enough women buy into her position, which is completely logical, etc., it's going to be too strong for the Church to ignore. The men holding the priesthood is going to be another "eternal principle" where God changes his mind.
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/blogsfaithblog/56795670-180/women-says-church-kelly.html.csp
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Posted: 29 August 2013 12:31 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
sage
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IMO it will take a sizable crowd and a sustained effort. I don't know whether they can get the numbers. I fear most tbm women buy into the program and would feel pangs of guilt if they were to venture into this arena.
Post mormons have previously called "bullshit" on the whole organization and may not have a reason except to bring more of the "stupidity" into the open.
I think that would leave largely the liberal Mormon groups to pull it off. It would be a significant coup if they did.
I resigned 6 years ago but pray (?) for their success.
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Posted: 29 August 2013 12:34 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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Lloyd Dobler
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Oh god this makes me laugh so much. Kate Kelly is the ultimate nightmare for the church. She is way to smart for the top 15 and will make sure she is two steps ahead at all times. While this will not have the same quick effect that the pray in conference initiative had, I think this will make an impact.
I like what she is doing. I think she is right in saying that most tbms really had no idea that women had never been able (allowed really) to pray in conference and that member have really never given any thought that women are not allowed to attend priesthood session.
The praying in conference thing was so indefensible that the church new they had to fix that shit asap. I believe the church will try to wait her out on this other initiative.....but she is smart and she does seem to have a plan.
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Posted: 29 August 2013 01:54 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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Tessa
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Sonya Johnson tried that...it was futile. Women will always be "less than" in the church.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin
Posted: 29 August 2013 02:23 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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It's brilliant. The church has no good options:
If the church refuses them entry, they have a PR nightmare on their hands. It'll be all over FB, Twitter, and the news in minutes. (Imagine pictures of church security or of old TBM men forcing women out of the Gordon B. Hinckley Conference Center.)
If the church allows them to attend, they will alienate their hardcore TBM base -- the only ones willing to give the church time and money.
Oops. I guess the church shoulda figured this out on its own before having its hand forced. But we all know that's not how the church rolls.
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Posted: 29 August 2013 02:26 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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Even I did not want to go the priesthood session when I was a TBM!
When I was a kid I took off and hid once I got there with my dad.
Once I came back from my mission I never went again.
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Posted: 29 August 2013 02:31 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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What Is Wanted:
Even I did not want to go the priesthood session when I was a TBM!
When I was a kid I took off and hid once I got there with my dad.
Once I came back from my mission I never went again.
Same here. I rarely went.
But I think the point of this Ordain Women project is to highlight the misogyny and inequality in the church.
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Posted: 29 August 2013 02:31 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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This reminds me of one of those famous interviews Gordon Hinckley gave. This one was in Australia, and here is a bit of it...
---------------------------------------------------------------
RB: At present women are not allowed to be priests in your Church. Why is that?
GBH: That’s right, because the Lord has put it that way. Now women have a very prominent place in this Church. They have there own organisation. Probably the largest women’s organisation in the world of 3.7 million members. There own ???. And the women of that organisation sit on Boards. Our Board of Education things of that kind. They counsel with us. We counsel together. They bring in insight that we very much appreciate and they have this tremendous organisation of the world where they grow and if you ask them they’ll say we’re happy and we’re satisfied.
RB: They all say that?
GBH: Yes. All except a oh you’ll find a little handful one or two here and there, but in 10 million members you expect that.
RB: You say the Lord has put it that way. What do you mean by that?
GBH: I mean that’s a part of His programme. Of course it is, yes.
RB: Is it possible that the rules could change in the future as the rules are on Blacks ?
GBH: He could change them yes. If He were to change them that’s the only way it would happen.
RB: So you’d have to get a revelation?
GBH: Yes. But there’s no agitation for that. We don’t find it. Our women are happy. They’re satisfied. These bright, able, wonderful women who administer their own organisation are very happy. Ask them. Ask my wife.
GBH: Are you happy? (to his wife...)
Mrs. H: Very happy! (laughs)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.abc.net.au/compass/intervs/hinckley.htm
==========================================
I guess there is now some "agitation for that". But of course GBH is gone now and dead prophets words don't count for much. Not that he was particularly forthright in these interviews.
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Posted: 29 August 2013 02:35 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
sage
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So agitation is the basis for revelation?
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Posted: 29 August 2013 02:36 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
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Lloyd Dobler
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Exactly Dave, and Kelly refers to what she is doing as faithful agitation. I think she knows how these guys play the game and is slowly going to create leverage
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William Faulkner drunk and depressed
Dorothy Parker mean, drunk and depressed
And that guy in Seven Years in Tibet turned out to be a nazi
The founding fathers all had slaves, the explorers slaughtered the braves,
The Old Testament God can be so petty
Heroes
JIll Sobule
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mC8Kf8v2apY
Posted: 29 August 2013 02:46 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
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peace out
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I want my imaginary priesthood too!!!!
In the temple don't woman perform ordinaces,don't they say Priests and Priestesses?
The old Testement talks about female prophets from what I recall.
I have to admit I would have been very unconfortable with the idea in my TBM days. But
if youre not thinking top down God says so why not?
Plus anything to torque-off the mother ship I'm all for !!!!!
Posted: 29 August 2013 02:47 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 11 ]
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Matter Unorganized
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Jesus, I hated general priesthood meeting. Stake priesthood meeting too. As a first-time deacon, I was excited to go, but that shine wore off in 5 minutes, when I realized it was the same as sacrament meeting or stake conference. Even the guy who gave the mandatory "Tonight I would like to address my comments to our friends in the Aaronic Priesthood" talk couldn't keep my interest. He was telling me DON'T PULL YER PUD! and I looked around, saw my friends, and we all just sunk down in our seats while our dads put their arms around our shoulders. What a special moment.
Yeah, if women want this, they can have it. They will be sorely disappointed. What they'll read in the Ensign the next month is word-for-word the way it went down.
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Posted: 29 August 2013 02:50 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 12 ]
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dave (e_nomo)
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I find it interesting that in the comments, some people are saying...
the transcripts are printed and the talks are available online
so why is it so important that she attend in person?
But when you get outside the mormon bubble, the comment becomes...
the transcripts are printed and the talks are available online
so why is it so important that she NOT attend in person?
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As Neo reaches for the red pill Morpheus warns Neo
“Remember, all I’m offering is the truth. Nothing more.”
Posted: 29 August 2013 03:26 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 13 ]
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Schyzm
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dave (e_nomo):
I find it interesting that in the comments, some people are saying...
the transcripts are printed and the talks are available online
so why is it so important that she attend in person?
But when you get outside the mormon bubble, the comment becomes...
the transcripts are printed and the talks are available online
so why is it so important that she NOT attend in person?
Beause in the LDS church, the concept of "seperate but equal" remains the order of the day. Organizationally its never managed to wrap its head around the idea that equality means having the same access, and forgoing exclusivity.
Yeah, they gave blacks the priesthood - years after the civil rights movement, and due to serious pressure. This is the way of powerful, conservative organizations - they fear and ridicule change, and seek to avoid it whenever possible.
The rest of the world has moved on. Most of us get that seperate but equal is a lie.
Posted: 29 August 2013 03:48 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 14 ]
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Lloyd Dobler
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Swearing Elder:
It's brilliant. The church has no good options:
If the church refuses them entry, they have a PR nightmare on their hands. It'll be all over FB, Twitter, and the news in minutes. (Imagine pictures of church security or of old TBM men forcing women out of the Gordon B. Hinckley Conference Center.)
If the church allows them to attend, they will alienate their hardcore TBM base -- the only ones willing to give the church time and money.
Oops. I guess the church shoulda figured this out on its own before having its hand forced. But we all know that's not how the church rolls.
I really don't see the church being able to prevent them from attending. At the same time, like you say SE, the hardcore tbms are not going to like seeing these women hand the brethrens hat to them on their own turf. It is a bit embarrassing really. A tbm may feel like Peter Venkman in Ghostbusters, "Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!"
What is the world coming to if the Brethren, those bad ass old dudes in the big red chairs, can't control their own members.........and women no less! Surely the end of days is nigh. The Stay Puft Marshmellow Man is going to be showing up at Temple Square any moment now...
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William Faulkner drunk and depressed
Dorothy Parker mean, drunk and depressed
And that guy in Seven Years in Tibet turned out to be a nazi
The founding fathers all had slaves, the explorers slaughtered the braves,
The Old Testament God can be so petty
Heroes
JIll Sobule
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mC8Kf8v2apY
Posted: 30 August 2013 02:27 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 15 ]
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Swearing Elder
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Lloyd Dobler:
Swearing Elder:
It's brilliant. The church has no good options:
If the church refuses them entry, they have a PR nightmare on their hands. It'll be all over FB, Twitter, and the news in minutes. (Imagine pictures of church security or of old TBM men forcing women out of the Gordon B. Hinckley Conference Center.)
If the church allows them to attend, they will alienate their hardcore TBM base -- the only ones willing to give the church time and money.
Oops. I guess the church shoulda figured this out on its own before having its hand forced. But we all know that's not how the church rolls.
I really don't see the church being able to prevent them from attending. At the same time, like you say SE, the hardcore tbms are not going to like seeing these women hand the brethrens hat to them on their own turf. It is a bit embarrassing really. A tbm may feel like Peter Venkman in Ghostbusters, "Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!"
What is the world coming to if the Brethren, those bad ass old dudes in the big red chairs, can't control their own members.........and women no less! Surely the end of days is nigh. The Stay Puft Marshmellow Man is going to be showing up at Temple Square any moment now...
Well, they wouldn't even let the director of the BYU Men's choir direct the choir a few years ago because...wait for it...she was, well, a she.
It'll be fascinating to see how this turns out. The Ordain Women group has a Facebook pageand a FB event page for those interested. They definitely want this to be a respectful event. If they do it right, they can't lose.
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Posted: 30 August 2013 07:18 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 16 ]
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My guess is that the top dogs will instruct the door guards to allow entry for a woman in order to maintain order and the appearance of love & harmony. Then send a letter to each stake president to visit each ward to call them to repentance.
You won't see confrontation at the great and powerful priesthood meeting, they can't afford that. But, you will see a heavy layer of guilt and subtle bullying on the ward level and perhaps even over the pulpit at general conference.
The cowards at the top will enlist their underlings to "dirty deeds done dirt cheap" and use public humiliation from the pulpit and peer pressure to keep these unruly women in their "proper places".
What I would really like to see is for a women's movement to take hold and all of those morgified repressed women who have sat back out of fear to stand up proud. Let them grow some ovaries and demand equality. I would march right along with them. They could if they would.
Posted: 30 August 2013 07:39 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 17 ]
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dave (e_nomo)
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The plan is for the women to wait in the "standby line".
I predict that there will be zero extra seats and nobody from the standby line will be admitted. Church will say sorry, there's no room.
That would be a lie, therefore continuing a longtime mormon leadership tradition
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As Neo reaches for the red pill Morpheus warns Neo
“Remember, all I’m offering is the truth. Nothing more.”
Posted: 30 August 2013 08:21 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 18 ]
danboyle2
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She can have my seat..in fact, she can have my priesthood too. Just come on by anytime, and after a quick hands-on-head ceremony, it's all hers.
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Posted: 30 August 2013 08:38 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 19 ]
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Tessa
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If the men would stand up, and support the women, giving them their seats, and invite them to return next conference.....the rebellion would be on. (Like Women getting the Vote.)
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin
Posted: 30 August 2013 09:19 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 20 ]
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labguy
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Do they have tickets? I cant' get my work browser to pull up the article. I live a couple of hours from SLC and I know that our stake gets a certain number of tickets to the different sessions of GC. If the ladies don't have tickets how are they going to get in?
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Posted: 30 August 2013 09:50 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 21 ]
Nephi
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Dress as men, attend the meeting, distribute yourselves all around the seating area and at various times during the meeting stand up and show you are a woman.
Will cause a lot of consternation and confusion.
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Posted: 30 August 2013 10:02 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 22 ]
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dave (e_nomo)
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They are being encouraged to ask for tickets, but I guess they are assuming they won't get any, therefore the plan is to get in the standby line. They are telling women to only ask for tickets from authorized sources, and not to use any kind of deceit to get in.
I've never been to this particular show, but if it works the way these kinds of things normally do, they will seat all ticket holders first, then fill in empty spots from the standby line. That's why I'm suggesting that this time all seats will be magically filled by ticket holders and there will be no spots open for the standbys.
On a side note, I see that they also remembered Gordon Hinckley's statements and are actively quoting him. Love that.
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As Neo reaches for the red pill Morpheus warns Neo
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Posted: 30 August 2013 12:48 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 23 ]
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Swearing Elder
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Nephi:
Dress as men, attend the meeting, distribute yourselves all around the seating area and at various times during the meeting stand up and show you are a woman.
Will cause a lot of consternation and confusion.
"Are there any women in here?"
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Posted: 30 August 2013 01:02 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 24 ]
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Woody
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Swearing Elder:
Nephi:
Dress as men, attend the meeting, distribute yourselves all around the seating area and at various times during the meeting stand up and show you are a woman.
Will cause a lot of consternation and confusion.
"Are there any women in here?"
Ms Kelly will need to be reminded to pick up a fake beard
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Posted: 30 August 2013 08:15 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 25 ]
Glad Datsover
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sage:
So agitation is the basis for revelation?
well that is their way apparently. youd think a guy that talks to god would be a little more pro active and a lot less reactive.
Posted: 30 August 2013 10:28 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 26 ]
bjohn
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I was always relieved not to be a man when they had the priesthood session. I don't see the big deal now when I no longer believe. The talks come out a week later. Read them in your home and avoid getting dressed up. One pro of general conference and the relief society meeting.
Posted: 31 August 2013 06:59 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 27 ]
NoMorKulAde
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The last conference I went to I took my wife with me because we were going out to dinner afterwards. We came in late, sat in the back and started to listen. She was excited because it was the first time for her. After 5 minutes someone from the Stake Presidency came and told her she couldn't be in the room and would she please mind waiting in the foyer. (Conference was piped into the foyer so couch sitters wouldn't be dissappointed so what was the point anyway?) We both got up and left. Date night was way better than getting reminded not to choke the chicken for two hours.
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Posted: 31 August 2013 10:43 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 28 ]
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Bold Wish
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. . . one day become priests and priestesses . . . ? . . . apparently, not in this life ladies . . .
The concept of of prohibiting women to be in the PH session of GC is humorously stupid
"And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;"
Clearly, there have been prophetesses so why not today? What if Anna showed up to the PH session of GC and wanted in?
The only way god could be the same, yesterday, today and forever, would be if he had Alzheimer's . . . pretty bad too.
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When I discovered the truth and realized the organization was lying to me, that they had always been lying to me, I felt a sting of betrayal, the humiliation from an organization who profits abundantly by violating trust. I knew that no matter what would come of it, I could no longer remain associated with the organization in any way. Since leaving, I’ve enjoyed thinking on my own, guilt is almost a foreign concept, and being in control of my life is incredibly satisfying.
Posted: 31 August 2013 11:17 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 29 ]
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Tessa
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The church's lame answer is that you share the priesthood with your husband. If he's an Elder...so are you, if he's a High Priest...then you are too. Doesn't quite ring well with the women...why should we "share" someone else's priesthood, why not have our own?
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin
Posted: 01 September 2013 11:28 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 30 ]
NoMorKulAde
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Tessa:
The church's lame answer is that you share the priesthood with your husband. If he's an Elder...so are you, if he's a High Priest...then you are too. Doesn't quite ring well with the women...why should we "share" someone else's priesthood, why not have our own?
You can have mine...well you could have had mine. I resigned earlier this year which made it null and void. But even when I had it it wasn't worth the time it took for the guy who ordained me to lay his hands on my head.
I had as much power with the priesthood that Santa or the Tooth Fairy has. Oh wait, fantastical fictional characters. Now I get it!
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Posted: 01 September 2013 02:35 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 31 ]
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TheThomas
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How much of you think the GAs are to the point where they feel if they change too much it will make the church seem less true? Change enough eternal principles, things start looking weird to even the most devout...
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Posted: 03 September 2013 11:47 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 32 ]
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4thNephite
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Wait a minute - women are complaining they don't have enough meetings to attend?
I never understood the desire for women to be given the priesthood. If I could have given away my priesthood responsibilities to my wife I would have done it in a heart beat! Here honey, now you can do the home teaching, baby blessings, healing sick people, and all that stuff that frankly just caused me a bunch of anxiety.
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Posted: 04 September 2013 05:27 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 33 ]
NoMorKulAde
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thNephite:
Wait a minute - women are complaining they don't have enough meetings to attend?
I never understood the desire for women to be given the priesthood. If I could have given away my priesthood responsibilities to my wife I would have done it in a heart beat! Here honey, now you can do the home teaching, baby blessings, healing sick people, and all that stuff that frankly just caused me a bunch of anxiety.
Amen 4thNephite. Many want it because they think it brings some special power into their life that will increase their ability to bless and help people. Then they will get it and realize its all a hoax and you are still on your own trying to convince the ward and family, who is always looking on that God is speaking through you. What a load of horse s**t. At least if those blessings don't come to fruition you can always blame it on the one who received it for being unworthy.
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Posted: 04 September 2013 08:34 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 34 ]
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dave (e_nomo)
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It's not the value of the fake priesthood that's the issue.
Imagine a schoolroom where every boy get a gold star and none of the girls do. The stars have no monetary value, they're just stickers. So it's not like the girls are missing out on anything of value. The boys get them for showing up and being boys. The girls, no matter what they do, can't get one.
Value of star: zero
Value of girl: less than value of boy
Oh wait, the girls are getting pink stars. Great!
Who is going to lead the class today? Someone with a gold star.
Who is going to decide where to go on a field trip? Someone with a gold star.
Who is going to choose up teams? Someone with a gold star.
Who is going to decide how many pink stars to give out? Someone with a gold star.
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As Neo reaches for the red pill Morpheus warns Neo
“Remember, all I’m offering is the truth. Nothing more.”
Posted: 04 September 2013 05:16 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 35 ]
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MsLed
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dave (e_nomo):
It's not the value of the fake priesthood that's the issue.
Imagine a schoolroom where every boy get a gold star and none of the girls do. The stars have no monetary value, they're just stickers. So it's not like the girls are missing out on anything of value. The boys get them for showing up and being boys. The girls, no matter what they do, can't get one.
Value of star: zero
Value of girl: less than value of boy
Oh wait, the girls are getting pink stars. Great!
Who is going to lead the class today? Someone with a gold star.
Who is going to decide where to go on a field trip? Someone with a gold star.
Who is going to choose up teams? Someone with a gold star.
Who is going to decide how many pink stars to give out? Someone with a gold star.
Excellent analogy!
Posted: 04 September 2013 06:49 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 36 ]
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Lloyd Dobler
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My personal opinion is that the woman heading the women and the priesthood thing up does not literally believe in Mormonism. I don't think she buys into any of the nonsense. She is not doing this because she actually wants the magic powers because she thinks they are real. She is doing this because the Church is a mysogynist organization with the priesthood serving as the hammer. It is simply bad and I think she wants to make bad better.
The top 15 may not realize that there are a bunch of smart Mormons who don't believe in all the bullshit because not only is it not true, its god damn embarrassing. I like her because she is an insider who knows how the boys club works and she has a militant streak.
Members need to realize that they actually control the church. The horse has left the barn and the brethren are just buying time until members realize it.
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William Faulkner drunk and depressed
Dorothy Parker mean, drunk and depressed
And that guy in Seven Years in Tibet turned out to be a nazi
The founding fathers all had slaves, the explorers slaughtered the braves,
The Old Testament God can be so petty
Heroes
JIll Sobule
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mC8Kf8v2apY
Posted: 05 September 2013 07:26 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 37 ]
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Timber
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NoMorKulAde:
The last conference I went to I took my wife with me because we were going out to dinner afterwards. We came in late, sat in the back and started to listen. She was excited because it was the first time for her. After 5 minutes someone from the Stake Presidency came and told her she couldn't be in the room and would she please mind waiting in the foyer. (Conference was piped into the foyer so couch sitters wouldn't be dissappointed so what was the point anyway?) We both got up and left. Date night was way better than getting reminded not to choke the chicken for two hours.
Posted: 05 September 2013 07:28 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 38 ]
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Timber
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MsLed:
dave (e_nomo):
It's not the value of the fake priesthood that's the issue.
Imagine a schoolroom where every boy get a gold star and none of the girls do. The stars have no monetary value, they're just stickers. So it's not like the girls are missing out on anything of value. The boys get them for showing up and being boys. The girls, no matter what they do, can't get one.
Value of star: zero
Value of girl: less than value of boy
Oh wait, the girls are getting pink stars. Great!
Who is going to lead the class today? Someone with a gold star.
Who is going to decide where to go on a field trip? Someone with a gold star.
Who is going to choose up teams? Someone with a gold star.
Who is going to decide how many pink stars to give out? Someone with a gold star.
Excellent analogy!
Brilliant.
Posted: 06 September 2013 07:23 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 39 ]
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Tessa
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Wonder if the women will insist on the "paperwork" that shows the line of priesthood authority back to Jesus...with their name at the bottom of the listing.
My hubby is so proud of his...
It should go back to Emma Smith...via all the women who should have had the priesthood...but it won't.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin
Posted: 06 September 2013 07:43 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 40 ]
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Woody
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NoMorKulAde:
The last conference I went to I took my wife with me because we were going out to dinner afterwards. We came in late, sat in the back and started to listen. She was excited because it was the first time for her. After 5 minutes someone from the Stake Presidency came and told her she couldn't be in the room and would she please mind waiting in the foyer. (Conference was piped into the foyer so couch sitters wouldn't be dissappointed so what was the point anyway?) We both got up and left. Date night was way better than getting reminded not to choke the chicken for two hours.
Be careful, you might start getting calluses.
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UPDATE - Mormon Women Want to Attend Priesthood Session
Posted: 06 September 2013 08:13 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 41 ]
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Adversarys Advocate
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Woody:
NoMorKulAde:
The last conference I went to I took my wife with me because we were going out to dinner afterwards. We came in late, sat in the back and started to listen. She was excited because it was the first time for her. After 5 minutes someone from the Stake Presidency came and told her she couldn't be in the room and would she please mind waiting in the foyer. (Conference was piped into the foyer so couch sitters wouldn't be dissappointed so what was the point anyway?) We both got up and left. Date night was way better than getting reminded not to choke the chicken for two hours.
Be careful, you might start getting calluses.
Ya. two hours is a long time. If it's taking that long, you might have a problem.
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Posted: 06 September 2013 07:53 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 42 ]
sage
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Ya. two hours is a long time. If it's taking that long, you might have a problem.
True, but then BKP is not a spring "chicken" any more
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If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away.
- Henry David Thoreau
Posted: 07 September 2013 06:11 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 43 ]
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Tessa
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choke the chicken for two hours.
What do they call it for women...pulsate the elevator button?
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin
Posted: 07 September 2013 09:37 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 44 ]
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Bold Wish
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Tessa:
What do they call it for women...pulsate the elevator button?
I call it taming the beaver . . . but . . . there's probably a better way to describe it . . .
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When I discovered the truth and realized the organization was lying to me, that they had always been lying to me, I felt a sting of betrayal, the humiliation from an organization who profits abundantly by violating trust. I knew that no matter what would come of it, I could no longer remain associated with the organization in any way. Since leaving, I’ve enjoyed thinking on my own, guilt is almost a foreign concept, and being in control of my life is incredibly satisfying.
Posted: 07 September 2013 06:37 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 45 ]
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Elder OldDog
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Bold Wish:
Tessa:
What do they call it for women...pulsate the elevator button?
I call it taming the beaver . . . but . . . there's probably a better way to describe it . . .
A girl I knew at one of my long ago corporate jobs called it 'tickling my fancy.'
Posted: 08 September 2013 03:03 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 46 ]
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Tessa
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Hope Miley Cyrus' "rubber hand" isn't a requirement.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin
Posted: 24 September 2013 09:55 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 47 ]
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Lord of Darkness
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Looks like the threat of women in attendance has caused TSCC to blink and put the event on television and on-line...
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=26984558&title=lds-church-to-broadcast-priesthood-session-on-tv-and-online&fm=home_page&s_cid=featured-1
Funny stuff.
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“Ignorance is the softest pillow on which a man can rest his head.” Michel de Montaigne
Posted: 24 September 2013 10:21 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 48 ]
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Lloyd Dobler
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Lord of Darkness:
Looks like the threat of women in attendance has caused TSCC to blink and put the event on television and on-line...
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=26984558&title=lds-church-to-broadcast-priesthood-session-on-tv-and-online&fm=home_page&s_cid=featured-1
Funny stuff.
Yeah, it is totally funny. The ordain women people are handing the church their own ass. So far, without very much effort at all, they have got the church to change their mysoginist practice of not allowing women to pray in conference. Now, they have forced the church to make the priesthood session available to everyone.......which in an of itself is a big deal.
I bet the top 15 think they have outmaneuvered Ms. Kelly and co but the funny thing that by making it accessible to EVERYONE they have now seemingly removed any valid argument against women now attending the meeting in person. What is the church going to say now as to why women can't attend? No matter what they do, they are going to look bad.
The other funny thing is it seems all the NOMs or certain mormon feminists are all up in arms about the stuff ordain women do. I think they are jeleous because while they don't have the guts to take the church on, they still want the glory and the notoriety. For all their talk and podcasts about change......what really makes the church change is taking them on and making them look bad. Then they change. Anything short of that and the church will just keep playing you off and manipulating you. They are sneaky bastards.......except when smart people with a plan take em on, then they just look bad.
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William Faulkner drunk and depressed
Dorothy Parker mean, drunk and depressed
And that guy in Seven Years in Tibet turned out to be a nazi
The founding fathers all had slaves, the explorers slaughtered the braves,
The Old Testament God can be so petty
Heroes
JIll Sobule
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mC8Kf8v2apY
Posted: 24 September 2013 02:35 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 49 ]
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Swearing Elder
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The D-bag News has chimed in as well. This quote from the story will shock the pantsuit right off you:
Kathryn Skaggs, who writes her widely read blog, A Well-Behaved Mormon Woman, from her home in Murrieta, Calif., said she believes she speaks for that vast majority of Mormon women when she expresses frustration "that this small element within the church who are pressing for the priesthood use the media to draw attention to themselves, as if they speak for all Mormon women."
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“There’s an old saying about those who forget history. I don’t remember it, but it’s good.” — Stephen Colbert
Posted: 24 September 2013 03:25 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 50 ]
Joycee
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Swearing Elder:
The D-bag News has chimed in as well. This quote from the story will shock the pantsuit right off you:
Kathryn Skaggs, who writes her widely read blog, A Well-Behaved Mormon Woman, from her home in Murrieta, Calif., said she believes she speaks for that vast majority of Mormon women when she expresses frustration "that this small element within the church who are pressing for the priesthood use the media to draw attention to themselves, as if they speak for all Mormon women."
This is exactly what I was waiting for, the other shoe has dropped. In many cases it's not Mormon men, or men in general, who keep women down, but other women. Some of the most vhemenent defenders of sexist attitudes are women who have been trained to believe they have a certain place in this world, and it's not having the same rights and privileges as men. From fundamentalist Islamic countries to fundamentalist Christians here in the US, these women work just as hard as men to maintain the status quo, if not harder. It's sad women work so hard to keep other women down because if every woman stood up and demanded equal rights, men would have no choice but to listen.
Posted: 24 September 2013 03:55 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 51 ]
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True to the Truth
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Kathryn Skaggs ... said she believes she speaks for that vast majority of Mormon women ... as if they speak for all Mormon women."
You can't make this stuff up, folks.
tttt
Posted: 24 September 2013 04:59 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 52 ]
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Lloyd Dobler
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I would like to see a faithful single LDS mom take her 12 year old deacon son and get in line for tickets. I would love to see them explain to her that she can't go in but he can.
I think LDS single moms throw this issue into sharp relief. Even in their own home, their church is telling them that there are things her family needs that she can't do on her own. She has to rely on home teachers or someone to provide the priesthood in the home. How would you like to hear that as a single parent that your not good enough or simply not enough for you kids........because your a woman.
A faithful single mom has no choice but to accept strange men into her home to provide the priesthood for her because she is not allowed to hold the power, only because she is a woman....her faith does not matter and her obedience does not matter. She is not allowed to switch wards either so she either needs to approve of the men that show up or .....well, what other choice does she have?
this kind of crap needs to stop. single LDS moms need more support than this.
.....even if it is all made up, :)
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William Faulkner drunk and depressed
Dorothy Parker mean, drunk and depressed
And that guy in Seven Years in Tibet turned out to be a nazi
The founding fathers all had slaves, the explorers slaughtered the braves,
The Old Testament God can be so petty
Heroes
JIll Sobule
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mC8Kf8v2apY
Posted: 24 September 2013 05:24 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 53 ]
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Matter Unorganized
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These women are going to be totally disappointed when they realize that the general penishood session is just the same made up shit in a different time slot. It's the same thing they've been reading in the Ensign with no secret bonus material. There is absolutely nothing special about the priesthood session which sets it apart from the rest of conference. Nothing!
All these years of secrecy and once the cat is out of the bag, they'll all be wondering what the big deal was. Hell, I went for 40 years and I'm still wondering...
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We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler
Posted: 24 September 2013 06:23 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 54 ]
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seeking peace
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Joycee:
Swearing Elder:
The D-bag News has chimed in as well. This quote from the story will shock the pantsuit right off you:
Kathryn Skaggs, who writes her widely read blog, A Well-Behaved Mormon Woman, from her home in Murrieta, Calif., said she believes she speaks for that vast majority of Mormon women when she expresses frustration "that this small element within the church who are pressing for the priesthood use the media to draw attention to themselves, as if they speak for all Mormon women."
This is exactly what I was waiting for, the other shoe has dropped. In many cases it's not Mormon men, or men in general, who keep women down, but other women. Some of the most vhemenent defenders of sexist attitudes are women who have been trained to believe they have a certain place in this world, and it's not having the same rights and privileges as men. From fundamentalist Islamic countries to fundamentalist Christians here in the US, these women work just as hard as men to maintain the status quo, if not harder. It's sad women work so hard to keep other women down because if every woman stood up and demanded equal rights, men would have no choice but to listen.
I have felt like yelling at the television all afternoon! It is not just the obedient TBM women who are keeping the other women down. What about the women who have actually achieved some little bit of power in the cult. Ruth Todd--the spokesperson for TSCC. Gag me! Her condescention to the Ordain Women ladies is rabid. Then there is Carol Mikitia-KSL's religion specialist. Her holy than thou attitude on the news tonight was vomit worthy. As was anchor Nadine Wimmer. And don't even get me started on Sheri Dewwhat I say,not what I Dew! And what about Peggy Slacker at the SL Tribune. These are the women that could actually speak up for women, the women who could be part of a movement. But they are the ones who must not think there is any more room at the top. Their condescention is so over the top towards women that I feel like throwing something at the screen. Good luck TBM's you have been thrown under the bus by your own today!
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It takes courage to grow up and turn out to be who you really are.—e.e.cummings
Posted: 25 September 2013 06:23 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 55 ]
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Bold Wish
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Lloyd Dobler:
this kind of crap needs to stop. single LDS moms need more support than this.
.....even if it is all made up, :)
Especially because it is all made up.
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When I discovered the truth and realized the organization was lying to me, that they had always been lying to me, I felt a sting of betrayal, the humiliation from an organization who profits abundantly by violating trust. I knew that no matter what would come of it, I could no longer remain associated with the organization in any way. Since leaving, I’ve enjoyed thinking on my own, guilt is almost a foreign concept, and being in control of my life is incredibly satisfying.
Posted: 26 September 2013 09:35 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 56 ]
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Lord of Darkness
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Classic double-speak by TSCC. After putting it on television/internet to placate the women, they send out an edict to the bishops that was read from the pulpit stating:
"Preisthood holders are encouraged to attend the general priesthood meeting in their local chapel."
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/blogsfaithblog/56921294-180/priesthood-lds-mormon-session.html.csp
We know that "encouraged" means required...so why televise it?
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“Ignorance is the softest pillow on which a man can rest his head.” Michel de Montaigne
Posted: 26 September 2013 10:57 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 57 ]
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Lloyd Dobler
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Lord of Darkness:
Classic double-speak by TSCC. After putting it on television/internet to placate the women, they send out an edict to the bishops that was read from the pulpit stating:
"Preisthood holders are encouraged to attend the general priesthood meeting in their local chapel."
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/blogsfaithblog/56921294-180/priesthood-lds-mormon-session.html.csp
We know that "encouraged" means required...so why televise it?
They totally screwed themselves. In trying to outmaneuver Ordain Women, they have opened the floodgates to people staying home for priesthood session. It is a manly mormon tradition. I remember as a kid getting in the car with my dad and driving 20 minutes to the stake center where we met all the other mormon men and then watched the VIP mormon men speak on a giant screen. Looking back, the whole thing is a bit surreal.
I think over the years, less and less guys are going to go. I mean nobody really likes it and you now have a great excuse to stay home.
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William Faulkner drunk and depressed
Dorothy Parker mean, drunk and depressed
And that guy in Seven Years in Tibet turned out to be a nazi
The founding fathers all had slaves, the explorers slaughtered the braves,
The Old Testament God can be so petty
Heroes
JIll Sobule
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mC8Kf8v2apY
Posted: 26 September 2013 11:07 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 58 ]
sage
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The Nazi Mormon crowd will still attend and it will be a measure of their TBM-ness. I wonder if local leaders have been instructed on how to deal with women who may try to attend locally.
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If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away.
- Henry David Thoreau
Posted: 26 September 2013 11:12 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 59 ]
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Lloyd Dobler
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sage:
The Nazi Mormon crowd will still attend and it will be a measure of their TBM-ness. I wonder if local leaders have been instructed on how to deal with women who may try to attend locally.
Hard to argue sage. My old SP used to schedule stake priesthood meeting on Super Bowl Sunday, no shit. THAT was a big time TEST. (sigh, I was always there)
But 5 years from now, 10 years..........the old meeting may not be what it used to be.....
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William Faulkner drunk and depressed
Dorothy Parker mean, drunk and depressed
And that guy in Seven Years in Tibet turned out to be a nazi
The founding fathers all had slaves, the explorers slaughtered the braves,
The Old Testament God can be so petty
Heroes
JIll Sobule
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mC8Kf8v2apY
Posted: 06 March 2014 11:08 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 60 ]
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Lord of Darkness
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Giving this thread a BUMP because Ordain Women has started its push again...
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/57642622-78/women-priesthood-church-session.html.csp
The church better figure out a solution quick because these women are going to keep doing this every session...and it is ridiculous that women can't attend.
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“Ignorance is the softest pillow on which a man can rest his head.” Michel de Montaigne
Posted: 07 March 2014 08:36 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 61 ]
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Tessa
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My guess is that the big bruisers...er...muscular ushers...will "discourage" the women access.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin
Posted: 07 March 2014 08:56 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 62 ]
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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Lord of Darkness:
Giving this thread a BUMP because Ordain Women has started its push again...
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/57642622-78/women-priesthood-church-session.html.csp
The church better figure out a solution quick because these women are going to keep doing this every session...and it is ridiculous that women can't attend.
It doesn't sound like Ordain Women is going away any time soon.
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Posted: 07 March 2014 10:26 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 63 ]
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dave (e_nomo)
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Swearing Elder:
The D-bag News has chimed in as well. This quote from the story will shock the pantsuit right off you:
Kathryn Skaggs, who writes her widely read blog, A Well-Behaved Mormon Woman, from her home in Murrieta, Calif., said she believes she speaks for that vast majority of Mormon women when she expresses frustration "that this small element within the church who are pressing for the priesthood use the media to draw attention to themselves, as if they speak for all Mormon women."
This is the same blogger who claimed the movie "Frozen" "advocates a gay agenda."
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Posted: 07 March 2014 11:35 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 64 ]
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Robby Sunshine
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I have a hard time interpreting another 4 hours per year of listening to "the brethren" as a victory for anyone. Let me save any"feminist agitators" lurking on here some time by summarizing the content of these meetings:
1) Go on a mission;
2) Don't masterbate.
Now please go enjoy your Saturday evenings (and you're welcome).
The whole idea of internal agitators pressuring for gender inclusion, liberal views on homosexuality, etc is absurd if one accepts the premise that the Church is led by an almighty deity who presumably knows best. If one doesn't accept that premise, what is the Church exactly and why is it worth reforming?
I suppose if one sees it as a presiding authority over a distinct cultural group then I can understand the agitation, but I can also understand the backlash from the true believers. You can't change eternal principles without underminding your mythological foundations. Yes, God could decide it's now OK for boys to go on missions when they're 18, but he can't change the rules of the game as they relate to core principles of the "plan of salvation" and the eternal destiny of man...err...humankind. Then again though, this horse left the barn back in 1890. That is why if I ever became convinced again that Joseph Smith really WAS a prophet, I'd bypass the sellouts in SLC and cast my lot in with Warren Jeffs and co.
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“Now Korihor said unto him: I do not deny the existence of a God, but I do not believe that there is a God; and I also say, that ye do not know that there is a God” (Alma 30:48)
Posted: 07 March 2014 04:19 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 65 ]
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MauEvig
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Why would women want the Priesthood? Perhaps for the same reasons homosexuals want to get married, they want an equal status.
One of the reasons I left is because I could not accept that women could not be members of the Priesthood. It's not just about attending meetings, because if you ask me, the Relief Society was just plain stupid. (No offense to people who liked the RL meetings, but I hated them!) I hated being powerless and not having the potential to have any authority in the church. Think about it, not a single meeting can happen without a man's authority behind it. There are plenty of women in TSCC who live alone, maybe their husbands died, and maybe the only children they have are daughters. If they needed a Priesthood blessing, a healing, etc. (not that I believe these things are true, but from the Mormon perspective, they are delusioned to believe they are) they could not get one, and had to wait and hope that a Priesthood member was kind enough to give them these blessings.
Just imagine how much more confident it would be to go out on a Mission knowing that you could baptise your converts and such.
I wish these women the best of luck. I really hope they succeed. Even though I never plan on going back to TSCC, as I don't trust Religion, I do support women having rights even if it's within a religion.
I also never understood why women would not want the Priesthood. I would have felt important to attend those meetings.
Posted: 07 March 2014 07:08 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 66 ]
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kinderhooker
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Robby Sunshine:
I have a hard time interpreting another 4 hours per year of listening to "the brethren" as a victory for anyone. Let me save any"feminist agitators" lurking on here some time by summarizing the content of these meetings:
snip
I would discourage anyone from attending or listening to The Brethren™. However, I strongly believe that all their general conference sessions should be for the general membership. Those who pay their club dues should be allowed to buy tickets to any club event on a first-come, first-served basis until all seats are full. If that means only women end up attending priesthood meeting, then so be it.
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“And the Lord said: I will prepare unto my servant Gazelem, a stone, which shall shine forth in darkness unto light, that I may discover unto my people who serve me, that I may discover unto them the works of their brethren, yea, their secret works, their works of darkness, and their wickedness and abominations.” Alma 37:3
Posted: 07 March 2014 08:37 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 67 ]
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4thNephite
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You know you've done a great job indoctrinating the women when their big complaint is that they don't get to attend enough conference.
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Posted: 07 March 2014 11:02 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 68 ]
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Robby Sunshine
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Still not seeing it.
This isn't pay equity, the right to vote, or the right to sit at the front of the bus we're talking about. This is about the right to equal membership rights within a fundamentally sexist institution. An African American could lobby for full membership and priveleges within a white supremist organization, but what would be the point?
The role of women in Mormonism and their fate in the hereafter might be given a PR polish these days, but it is as clear as it is distasteful to anyone that chooses to read the scriptures and study the doctrine. I alluded to polygamy in my last post, but providing the priesthood to women would do far, far more to turn the whole founding mythology on its head than the Manifesto ever could. If you're a NOM looking to reduce the Church to something more along the lines of a social club that is all well and fine, but acknowledge that objective and understand the backlash. If you're a true believer, I would question your grasp of LDS doctrine.
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“Now Korihor said unto him: I do not deny the existence of a God, but I do not believe that there is a God; and I also say, that ye do not know that there is a God” (Alma 30:48)
Posted: 09 March 2014 02:11 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 69 ]
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evil_archer
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MauEvig:
Why would women want the Priesthood? Perhaps for the same reasons homosexuals want to get married, they want an equal status.
One of the reasons I left is because I could not accept that women could not be members of the Priesthood. It's not just about attending meetings, because if you ask me, the Relief Society was just plain stupid. (No offense to people who liked the RL meetings, but I hated them!) I hated being powerless and not having the potential to have any authority in the church. Think about it, not a single meeting can happen without a man's authority behind it. There are plenty of women in TSCC who live alone, maybe their husbands died, and maybe the only children they have are daughters. If they needed a Priesthood blessing, a healing, etc. (not that I believe these things are true, but from the Mormon perspective, they are delusioned to believe they are) they could not get one, and had to wait and hope that a Priesthood member was kind enough to give them these blessings.
Just imagine how much more confident it would be to go out on a Mission knowing that you could baptise your converts and such.
I wish these women the best of luck. I really hope they succeed. Even though I never plan on going back to TSCC, as I don't trust Religion, I do support women having rights even if it's within a religion.
I also never understood why women would not want the Priesthood. I would have felt important to attend those meetings.
I agree, the priesthood is one symbol of the sexism that still goes on in TSCC. The Ordain Women movement is just a remnder of the fact that women are NOT equal at all.I think it's symbolic since I consider the Mormon priesthood to be lay clergy because other churches require those who want to become ministers to be trained in theology and counseling. To me, TSCC's "seminary" is basically catechism and Sunday School 6 days a week.
One of the reasons I left TSCC and won't join certain churches is that I don't think gender should be a barrier to those who wish to serve as clergy. My nevermo fiancee was shocked when I told him that female missionaries aren't allowed to baptize those they've converted, since he knew that Catholic nuns can baptize infants in emergencies. The thing that I think is an example of the sexism is that the person who went through 9 months of pregnancy and labor isn't allowed to participate in an infant's blessing because she has the wrong genitalia. If women were considered equals, the mother would be able to hold her child as women in other churches get to do for christenings.
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Posted: 09 March 2014 02:38 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 70 ]
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Robby Sunshine:
Still not seeing it.
This isn't pay equity, the right to vote, or the right to sit at the front of the bus we're talking about. This is about the right to equal membership rights within a fundamentally sexist institution. An African American could lobby for full membership and priveleges within a white supremist organization, but what would be the point?
The role of women in Mormonism and their fate in the hereafter might be given a PR polish these days, but it is as clear as it is distasteful to anyone that chooses to read the scriptures and study the doctrine. I alluded to polygamy in my last post, but providing the priesthood to women would do far, far more to turn the whole founding mythology on its head than the Manifesto ever could. If you're a NOM looking to reduce the Church to something more along the lines of a social club that is all well and fine, but acknowledge that objective and understand the backlash. If you're a true believer, I would question your grasp of LDS doctrine.
YES. This. I don't think I've ever seen it stated so well.
You have to be somewhere beyond delusional to:
Believe that you're in god's one and only true church
That the church is still led by god through direct revelation
That since the beginning of time god has only given the priesthood to men
But god would be ok with women having the priesthood now even though god's prophet(s) have repeatedly told you "no"
Either god (via his prophet) has told you "no" or that guy that told you "no" is not really god's prophet, in which case, he couldn't give you the priesthood anyway. I suppose there are other intermediate possibilities between those two extremes, but I can't find a point on that continuum where the 'ordain women' arguments make sense.
Am I oversimplifying this?
Posted: 09 March 2014 06:19 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 71 ]
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Robby Sunshine:
Still not seeing it.
This isn't pay equity, the right to vote, or the right to sit at the front of the bus we're talking about. This is about the right to equal membership rights within a fundamentally sexist institution. An African American could lobby for full membership and priveleges within a white supremist organization, but what would be the point?
The role of women in Mormonism and their fate in the hereafter might be given a PR polish these days, but it is as clear as it is distasteful to anyone that chooses to read the scriptures and study the doctrine. I alluded to polygamy in my last post, but providing the priesthood to women would do far, far more to turn the whole founding mythology on its head than the Manifesto ever could. If you're a NOM looking to reduce the Church to something more along the lines of a social club that is all well and fine, but acknowledge that objective and understand the backlash. If you're a true believer, I would question your grasp of LDS doctrine.
This isn't some club though, it's a religion. (Even if arguably speaking, the Mormon church is a bit like some kind of secret club). If ordaining women has no point, then what was the point exactly of ordaining blacks to the Priesthood? Why should women not have equal representation in a church? That was one of my problems in the church in the first place that I struggled through the entire time I was in it, until it eventually lead to me leaving. I joined for a pretty stupid reason to begin with, but speaking from the perspective of someone who came from a different church growing up, I'd want to know that God cared about me being a woman, and that I'm not just a slave to a man. It would show that religion could get past the intolerance of the sexes, and who knows, maybe one day get past the intolerance of homosexuals. Other churches have already done so, despite what it says in the Bible about them. We all have a right to our own beliefs, but if those beliefs contradict my rights then what? Then people leave. They question "God's love." The fact that women are said to be subserviant to their husbands made me first question the Bible itself all the way back to when I was a young teenager or preteen (not exactly sure how old I was when I learned of those verses).
Suppose a woman wants to completely devote themselves to God, and not to married life? What then? They simply can't? God just rejects them for being a woman?
evil_archer:
I agree, the priesthood is one symbol of the sexism that still goes on in TSCC. The Ordain Women movement is just a remnder of the fact that women are NOT equal at all.I think it's symbolic since I consider the Mormon priesthood to be lay clergy because other churches require those who want to become ministers to be trained in theology and counseling. To me, TSCC's "seminary" is basically catechism and Sunday School 6 days a week.
One of the reasons I left TSCC and won't join certain churches is that I don't think gender should be a barrier to those who wish to serve as clergy. My nevermo fiancee was shocked when I told him that female missionaries aren't allowed to baptize those they've converted, since he knew that Catholic nuns can baptize infants in emergencies. The thing that I think is an example of the sexism is that the person who went through 9 months of pregnancy and labor isn't allowed to participate in an infant's blessing because she has the wrong genitalia. If women were considered equals, the mother would be able to hold her child as women in other churches get to do for christenings.
That's exactly my point. Other Christian religions at the very least allow women to be pastors. My old church even annointed me once. I cannot believe that they cannot even hold their child when it comes to a blessing. I never attended seminary since I was a convert.
I left TSCC mainly because I couldn't accept the sexism. One girl I talked to even scared me because she said polygamy could be reinstated one day and I should just accept it to "help a sister out." Apparently, women cannot be "saved" without a man at their side, and if there aren't enough men to go around, we have to share. How can a single man love more than one woman equally?
I'm actually surprised about the fact that a Nun is capable of baptising a child. I didn't think women had a whole lot of rights in the Catholic church either, although I had a boss that was a catholic woman and I had a lot of respect for her.
Why they want women to be so powerless so badly, I cannot understand.
TheTruthSetmeFree:
YES. This. I don't think I've ever seen it stated so well.
You have to be somewhere beyond delusional to:
Believe that you're in god's one and only true church
That the church is still led by god through direct revelation
That since the beginning of time god has only given the priesthood to men
But god would be ok with women having the priesthood now even though god's prophet(s) have repeatedly told you "no"
Either god (via his prophet) has told you "no" or that guy that told you "no" is not really god's prophet, in which case, he couldn't give you the priesthood anyway. I suppose there are other intermediate possibilities between those two extremes, but I can't find a point on that continuum where the 'ordain women' arguments make sense.
Am I oversimplifying this?
Does this mean women should not be given the Priesthood? What reason does "God" have not to ordain women to a Priesthood status? Technically the Bible has had Priestesses and Prophetesses, and if they can make up something along the lines of "Blacks just weren't ready to receive the Priesthood" at the time when they were given the Priesthood, certainly they could do the same for women and it shouldn't be that big of a deal.
I believe TSCC to be BS as much as the next person, but as a feminist, I completely support a woman's right to be able to serve her church in an equal fashion to that of a man.
Posted: 09 March 2014 06:27 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 72 ]
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Bold Wish
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MauEvig:
Why they want women to be so powerless so badly, I cannot understand.
I could be wrong but my guess is this sexism, their "policies about women," or whatever, is just a carry over from the old days - the early leaders have done a fine job of painting themselves - and future leaders - into lots of corners and the current leadership can't really figure out a good way to resovle the situation without making themselves look even more stupid. President Tommy, UPS just delivered fifteen dunce caps - where should I put them?
But I think they have bigger holes to plug and that's where their main attention seems to be going.
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When I discovered the truth and realized the organization was lying to me, that they had always been lying to me, I felt a sting of betrayal, the humiliation from an organization who profits abundantly by violating trust. I knew that no matter what would come of it, I could no longer remain associated with the organization in any way. Since leaving, I’ve enjoyed thinking on my own, guilt is almost a foreign concept, and being in control of my life is incredibly satisfying.
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Mormons to use technology in missionary work MSNBC article
Posted: 25 June 2013 06:20 AM [ Ignore ]
Life Rocks
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This morning on MSNBC I read the following article.
Mormons to use technology in missionary work
http://money.msn.com/business-news/article.aspx?feed=AP&date=20130625&id=16634491
The use of social media is now the way to do missionary work?
Young people who have almost no capacity to conduct a meaningful conversation about anything and now they'll be teaching about the Church by texting and using facebook? Oh brother....
Giving access to the members to use the internet? Can you see what will happen? Where this is headed?
Excuse me Elder Smith, but I just googled "Mormonism" and discovered the Mountain Meadow Massacre, can you tell me what that was?
Gee, Mr. Investigator, I don't know anything about that, let me find out and I'll get back to you.
So then Elder Smith goes on line and discovers links to other things....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ueffi8kHP7U
...among other things.
I think once this starts to fail, it's going to unravel very quickly.
Sophisticated, computer savy young people are going to look at temple experiences and reject it just as they're now questioning other aspects of the Church.
I don't think this is specific to the LDS Church. I learned after I left the Church that the value of such society institutions was that it gave some structure and direction, some support and ritual to society.
Any thoughts?
Posted: 25 June 2013 06:32 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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WinstonSmith
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and in every SM, PM RSM, SS the propoganda is spread how inspired this new program is---yada-yada-yada.
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Posted: 25 June 2013 07:17 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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Lord of Darkness
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The whole program appears to be a Hail Mary of sorts...an act of desperation. Practically speaking, what are these missionaries going to be doing with their time day in and day out? I can't imagine "investigators" flooding social media to find out more about the church...and I don't think the average person in South America and Africa is walking around with an iPad mini, using Facebook for spiritual guidance.
I served in France/Belgium in the mid 90's--pre-Internet--but there's no way the college students in Europe are going to flock to social media to have a dialogue with missionaries.
The church will probably use missionaries in the MTC to "role play" with actual missionaries in the field 24/7, just so everyone has something to do.
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Posted: 25 June 2013 08:10 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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Hitchen's Razor
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Lord of Darkness:
The whole program appears to be a Hail Mary of sorts...an act of desperation. Practically speaking, what are these missionaries going to be doing with their time day in and day out? I can't imagine "investigators" flooding social media to find out more about the church...and I don't think the average person in South America and Africa is walking around with an iPad mini, using Facebook for spiritual guidance.
I served in France/Belgium in the mid 90's--pre-Internet--but there's no way the college students in Europe are going to flock to social media to have a dialogue with missionaries.
The church will probably use missionaries in the MTC to "role play" with actual missionaries in the field 24/7, just so everyone has something to do.
They've always said that the most important conversion a missionary can make is his/her own conversion. I imagine that 2 years of guided/tracked internet access, where a mission president and church officials can spin convoluted answers to the "lies, damn lies" on the internet will help "convert" more of those youngsters so that they stick to the iron rod. On the outside it looks a lot like mental conditioning of pliable minds, but they'll label the mental control with some positive sounding religious psychobabble and the mormon masses will eat it up.
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Posted: 25 June 2013 08:31 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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Life Rocks:
Excuse me Elder Smith, but I just googled "Mormonism" and discovered the Mountain Meadow Massacre, can you tell me what that was?
Gee, Mr. Investigator, I don't know anything about that, let me find out and I'll get back to you.
I don't think they'd approach this unscripted. There will be canned lessons, canned responses, church approved discussion arcs.
It's an ad campaign like any other. Only instead of buying time, ad space or clicks, they get themselves a bunch of internet savvy youngsters to bomb social media and raise their Google results with the PA firm engineered message.
Will it work? I don't know. I think it's a day late and a dollar short.
Becky
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Posted: 25 June 2013 08:49 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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Cornelius
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Hitchen&#;s Razor:
Lord of Darkness:
The whole program appears to be a Hail Mary of sorts...an act of desperation. Practically speaking, what are these missionaries going to be doing with their time day in and day out? I can't imagine "investigators" flooding social media to find out more about the church...and I don't think the average person in South America and Africa is walking around with an iPad mini, using Facebook for spiritual guidance.
I served in France/Belgium in the mid 90's--pre-Internet--but there's no way the college students in Europe are going to flock to social media to have a dialogue with missionaries.
The church will probably use missionaries in the MTC to "role play" with actual missionaries in the field 24/7, just so everyone has something to do.
They've always said that the most important conversion a missionary can make is his/her own conversion. I imagine that 2 years of guided/tracked internet access, where a mission president and church officials can spin convoluted answers to the "lies, damn lies" on the internet will help "convert" more of those youngsters so that they stick to the iron rod. On the outside it looks a lot like mental conditioning of pliable minds, but they'll label the mental control with some positive sounding religious psychobabble and the mormon masses will eat it up.
I've already heard a few higher ups use various forms of "protection" as one of their safe words. "We will make sure missionaries are protected while using the internet" and "Precautions will be taken to protect missionaries while preaching online".
I'm sure they will also be protected from evil of critical thinking and be protected from those evil historical facts that aren't useful for conversion.
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Posted: 25 June 2013 09:38 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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Silver Girl
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I am relieved that they are moving further and further away from door to door tracting.
I think they are going to have to come up with a lot of busy work since the number of missionaries is way out of proportion to the number of people interested in the church.
Dare I hope that at some point instead of busy work they start spending all their time giving actual service?
SG
Posted: 25 June 2013 09:46 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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Schyzm
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If I were an evil newspaper editor, My headline would read "Mormon Missionaries to Use Protection!"
Posted: 25 June 2013 09:50 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
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DaveManCan
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It is an interesting move. I have gone to the church's web site where I engaged in chat with a missionary. I posed as an investigator but when I asked about some of the problems with Mormonism the dude stopped responding and I was kicked from the chat client. I agree with Lord of Darkness in that this move was critical in keeping missionaries who are so socially connected and addicted to communication via text messaging, etc, enrolled in their mission. I would imagine many missionaries can not handle the withdrawal of not being able to communicate.
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Posted: 25 June 2013 09:55 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
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Matter Unorganized
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Lord of Darkness:
The whole program appears to be a Hail Mary of sorts...an act of desperation. Practically speaking, what are these missionaries going to be doing with their time day in and day out? I can't imagine "investigators" flooding social media to find out more about the church...and I don't think the average person in South America and Africa is walking around with an iPad mini, using Facebook for spiritual guidance.
I served in France/Belgium in the mid 90's--pre-Internet--but there's no way the college students in Europe are going to flock to social media to have a dialogue with missionaries.
The church will probably use missionaries in the MTC to "role play" with actual missionaries in the field 24/7, just so everyone has something to do.
They've got no use for the poor, because the poor drain their coffers.
In Africa:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/31/us-mormonchurch-idUSTRE80T1CM20120131
Here at home:
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/31874/
The proposed new program smacks of desperation, plain and simple.
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We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
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Posted: 25 June 2013 10:20 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
Life Rocks
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You got trouble my friends...right here in Salt Lake City!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LI_Oe-jtgdI
Posted: 25 June 2013 10:32 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 11 ]
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Quartersawn
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Silver Girl:
I am relieved that they are moving further and further away from door to door tracting.
I think they are going to have to come up with a lot of busy work since the number of missionaries is way out of proportion to the number of people interested in the church.
Dare I hope that at some point instead of busy work they start spending all their time giving actual service?
SG
Here, here!!!!
It would probably definitely do TSCC more good to have these people actually doing some good in the world rather than shoving their unwanted religion on people, and trying to 'act' all normal when, for over 100 years, they've always gloated in being peculiar (which indeed they are).
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Why would you consider a man a prophet whose morals are worse than your own? Having claimed to commune with deity, be visited by angels and receive revelations, should he not be held to a higher standard? —me
Posted: 25 June 2013 10:43 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 12 ]
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There was a great deal of flooding here (Calgary) over the weekend. 100,000 people were displaced at one point and they are saying it could take 10 years to restore everything.
The church has been very active in helping and I was approached by a high councillor and asked to assist. I asked if we'd be wearing those mormon helping hands T-shirts and of course we would be. I paraphrased Matthew 6:1-4 for him:
1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.
I told him I didn't need the church to tell me when or where to render service, and that I would do so on my own terms. I am constantly involved in community service and it seems the church only extends its service to the community when there is a high-profile catastrophe or event that will guarantee them plenty of media exposure.
Needless to say, he was very taken aback by what I said and assured me that the church helps the community in many ways. I asked him when was the last time the church did anything for this community. He mentioned the annual food drive for the food bank, and I asked him when was the last time the stake did that without inviting the media so it could "be seen of men" on the 6 o'clock news. He had no answer.
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We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler
Posted: 25 June 2013 11:41 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 13 ]
Sossy
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This is very interesting. It makes me wonder if going on a mission will begin to mean something totally different. If you are going to preach on the internet, there is really no need to leave home at all. That would also make it far less expensive to serve a mission. It will be interesting to see where this goes in 5-10 years.
Posted: 25 June 2013 12:00 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 14 ]
Life Rocks
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Those in the Church who "volunteer" to help, feel like they're part of the tribe when they're wearing the t-shirt and helping out. Goodness knows a lot can get done when a hundred people show up.
But my experience is that Mormons generally don't think to help out until someone from the "compassionate service committee" in the ward or stake says, "we're doing a service project." Then of course they show up en mass with their t-shirts.
In areas that have more non-LDS neighbours, they generally don't associate with non-LDS people so to "help their neighbours" wouldn't occur to them.
Are they helping for the sake of helping or is this one big media opportunity?
or an effort to do missionary work?
Missionaries know first hand that members generally "don't share the gospel" or refer their friends because they're afraid to or they don't have very many non-LDS friends. Maybe that makes it easier for them to do it by wearing a t-shirt and being in a group.
When the flood waters are rising and your house is under water does it matter?
I can remember the foothills in California were burning up...people were being evacuated and ash was covering the cars in the Church parking lot. I showed up to Elder's Quorum and they were having yet another boring, unprepared lesson. When I asked if it occurred to anyone to dispense with the lesson to help those who had been evacuated, you'd have thought I was asking for them to break the commandments. There's such rigidity in "keeping the sabbath holy" by "attending your meetings", to do otherwise was considered sinful.
I bet being a member of the Church is getting to be more of a challenge all the time with the internet and more information being available. Too bad they can't just show up and help and say, "I'm here to help, I belong to the Mormon Church, but I don't give a rip if you join our Church or not. I'm here to be a good neighbour."
Posted: 25 June 2013 02:04 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 15 ]
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My favorite line from the article...
"Recognizing the world has changed, leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints....."
I don't know why, but that just cracks me up.
Well, actually, I do know why.
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Posted: 25 June 2013 03:00 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 16 ]
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dave (e_nomo):
My favorite line from the article...
"Recognizing the world has changed, leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints....."
I don't know why, but that just cracks me up.
Well, actually, I do know why.
Whoa!!! "The World" was ripe and ready for the Second Coming, it had succeeded in fulfilling the prophecies of old, so said JS and the IncTones who kept the band going after JS tangled with disapproving critics. And now its changed!
And doesn't the passage Dave quoted amount to <cue reverential music> Revelation?
Posted: 26 June 2013 07:48 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 17 ]
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Elder OldDog:
dave (e_nomo):
My favorite line from the article...
"Recognizing the world has changed, leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints....."
I don't know why, but that just cracks me up.
Well, actually, I do know why.
Whoa!!! "The World" was ripe and ready for the Second Coming, it had succeeded in fulfilling the prophecies of old, so said JS and the IncTones who kept the band going after JS tangled with disapproving critics. And now its changed!
And doesn't the passage Dave quoted amount to <cue reverential music> Revelation?
Yes, and in keeping with the schedule of past "revelations", it comes at least one decade after the rest of the world figured it out.
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Posted: 27 June 2013 12:00 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 18 ]
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josephs myth
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Translation: We have so many supergreen and unprepared mishies right now, without sufficient resources in the field to support even half of the more qualified placements, we had better just simply give em all laptops and let them chat to innocent prospects and the unwary potential investigators online. Once we talk the new missionaries into buying their own portable computers, later on.
All computers will be outfited by the LDS church and severley limited in the information that can be accessed.
.
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Posted: 27 June 2013 09:56 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 19 ]
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Woody
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Matter Unorganized:
There was a great deal of flooding here (Calgary) over the weekend. 100,000 people were displaced at one point and they are saying it could take 10 years to restore everything.
The church has been very active in helping and I was approached by a high councillor and asked to assist. I asked if we'd be wearing those mormon helping hands T-shirts and of course we would be. I paraphrased Matthew 6:1-4 for him:
1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.
I told him I didn't need the church to tell me when or where to render service, and that I would do so on my own terms. I am constantly involved in community service and it seems the church only extends its service to the community when there is a high-profile catastrophe or event that will guarantee them plenty of media exposure.
Needless to say, he was very taken aback by what I said and assured me that the church helps the community in many ways. I asked him when was the last time the church did anything for this community. He mentioned the annual food drive for the food bank, and I asked him when was the last time the stake did that without inviting the media so it could "be seen of men" on the 6 o'clock news. He had no answer.
THIS. EFFING. ROCKS!
MU I salute you.
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Posted: 27 June 2013 12:40 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 20 ]
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Tessa
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"We will make sure missionaries are protected while using the internet" and "Precautions will be taken to protect missionaries while preaching online".
Using Mormon Internet Condoms??
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin
Posted: 27 June 2013 06:29 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 21 ]
Life Rocks
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If the missionaries are going to doing their proseletyzing on line does that mean eventually Church services could be held on Skype or Google groups and the Church would save printing tithing slips by having automatic access to your bank account and sending you an electronic statement.
With a virtual sacrament meeting you wouldn't even need to have buildings any more and that would save even more money.
Posted: 27 June 2013 06:33 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 22 ]
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Silverwings
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Life Rocks:
If the missionaries are going to doing their proseletyzing on line does that mean eventually Church services could be held on Skype or Google groups and the Church would save printing tithing slips by having automatic access to your bank account and sending you an electronic statement.
With a virtual sacrament meeting you wouldn't even need to have buildings any more and that would save even more money.
No one would have to "Voluntarily" clean them either.
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Posted: 27 June 2013 07:26 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 23 ]
Free2Live
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Life Rocks:
If the missionaries are going to doing their proseletyzing on line does that mean eventually Church services could be held on Skype or Google groups and the Church would save printing tithing slips by having automatic access to your bank account and sending you an electronic statement.
With a virtual sacrament meeting you wouldn't even need to have buildings any more and that would save even more money.
lol
but
there has to be a latter day way for the laying on of hands to cover up the laying on of hands of joe the pervert smith did and a church house seems like the cover for it
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Posted: 20 February 2014 02:46 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 24 ]
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Elder OldDog
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I'm bumping this thread because I recalled its existence when I barged into this McDonald's in East LA and sat down to find three Elders sitting in front of me, sort of hidden in a corner.
I couldn't see what the one whose back was turned to me was doing, but I presume he was doing the same at the other two (the Gavachos) were doing, using their iPad Minis. At least I presume that's what they were. The two I could see had matching cases for whatever was in each case.
There was ZERO interaction between the three as they sat there. Maybe they'd already eaten and put away their trays... If so, they hung out for 15 while I was there, never once talking or joking amongst themselves. They were intently working their iPads, reading and texting, using the free Wifi there at McDonalds.
When they left the one whose back was to me, turned out to be Hispanic looking. And on the way out, he used an ATM there in McDonalds. I forgot to check if it was a 'branded' ATM, so that he might have (hopefully) used it for free.
Has anyone got any stories about how the missionaries are doing using the iPads?
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Posted: 20 February 2014 03:15 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 25 ]
Ninon de Lenclos
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Elder OldDog:
I'm bumping this thread because I recalled its existence when I barged into this McDonald's in East LA and sat down to find three Elders sitting in front of me, sort of hidden in a corner.
I couldn't see what the one whose back was turned to me was doing, but I presume he was doing the same at the other two (the Gavachos) were doing, using their iPad Minis. At least I presume that's what they were. The two I could see had matching cases for whatever was in each case.
There was ZERO interaction between the three as they sat there. Maybe they'd already eaten and put away their trays... If so, they hung out for 15 while I was there, never once talking or joking amongst themselves. They were intently working their iPads, reading and texting, using the free Wifi there at McDonalds.
When they left the one whose back was to me, turned out to be Hispanic looking. And on the way out, he used an ATM there in McDonalds. I forgot to check if it was a 'branded' ATM, so that he might have (hopefully) used it for free.
Has anyone got any stories about how the missionaries are doing using the iPads?
East LA is one of the [many] places I resonate with. It's "old" LA (at one time, before the turn of the twentieth century, it was one of the "rich" sections of the city)...
...the now-Hispanic, "homey" ambiance is frequently very inviting...
...and it's got a number of great, very old cemeteries. (I sort of adopted a couple of the nearly abandoned, ethnic ones--making the trek over to East LA every once in a while to pick up trash and do general clean-up, all by myself).
One of them--the historic (and still very much in use) Chinese cemetery, came in VERY handy one time when I was co-writing a mystery novel: the [fictional] murder of a (totally WASP-y) music celebrity--which was the beginning of the mystery--was committed next to the small ceremonial incinerators, near the center of the cemetery, where Americans of Chinese descent still today burn paper models of all the things they want the deceased person to take with them into the next realm: ceremonial [play] money...vehicles...furniture...food...houses...everything that someone would want to start off a "new life" with. (You can buy the paper models of all these goods in the stores in Chinatown, maybe three or four miles away.)
Thank you, Elder OldDog.
Good thoughts of East LA!
Posted: 21 February 2014 04:40 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 26 ]
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OldSoul
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Kind of unrelated, but on the subject of technology...
Ever hear of the media company "Living Scriptures?" They sell videos they make on gospel subjects. Most famous are their animated Book of Mormon videos. They used to have kiosks in Utah malls. I bring them up because they (a decade or more ago) had the strangest use of technology. In their outbound sales department their returned missionaires were not supposed to use their own voice, or even their own words. They had something they called "The Angel System" which was basically a sound board with prerecorded dialog. So when you were talking to their salespeople, it was really just someone listening to you and pressing buttons. Super creepy.
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Posted: 21 February 2014 12:17 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 27 ]
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Kori
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I see tons of missionaries camped out at the local library on the computers all the time.
Out of curiosity I peek over their shoulders to see what they're doing. They're all on websites that are monitored by the Church. They all say "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" in the upper left corner. I don't think they're more monitored than a Chinese citizen in China.
It's kind of scary having such a controlling CULT in charge of the world's largest standing army of CULT brainwashers.
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Posted: 23 February 2014 11:43 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 28 ]
Nephi
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When at the public library yesterday looking for books on planting strawberriew with spring approaching - two missionaries at the computers(1 hr reserved time). One watching a movie and the other watching music videos/
That Internet Tracting seems to be working well. Any day now these guys will probably baptize Humphrey Bogart and Debbie Harry.
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Posted: 23 February 2014 11:54 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 29 ]
Sossy
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Nephi:
When at the public library yesterday looking for books on planting strawberriew with spring approaching - two missionaries at the computers(1 hr reserved time). One watching a movie and the other watching music videos/
That Internet Tracting seems to be working well. Any day now these guys will probably baptize Humphrey Bogart and Debbie Harry.
That's a better use of their time than tracting.
Posted: 23 February 2014 03:00 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 30 ]
Life's A-bish
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This is a site I know to have been built as part of the 'Digital Mission' program.
reallifeanswers.org
As you search, missionaries can become part of the conversation and then link you to web articles.
Cannot reveal my source but I know this is a fact!!!
Posted: 23 February 2014 03:24 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 31 ]
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Life&#;s A-bish:
This is a site I know to have been built as part of the 'Digital Mission' program.
reallifeanswers.org
As you search, missionaries can become part of the conversation and then link you to web articles.
Cannot reveal my source but I know this is a fact!!!
Looking at the site, they're certainly not hiding the fact that it's a missionary program. Kind of jarring, thought, to see the line, "Chat with our full time ministers" Because of the temple, the word 'minister' has never had a good vibe...
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I’m a Mormon—and I’m Special!
Posted: 13 February 2014 09:08 AM [ Ignore ]
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seeking peace
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After an emotional exchange with family members for daring to post the Open Letter on my FaceBook account, I realized how special they all think they are. Mormons believe they are above civil dialogue. I have had college classes where we had to chat online, much like we do here at Post-Mo. We all know the rules up front. We all remain civil. We do not resort to name-calling. We try to state our opinions in a clear and succinct manner. Most Mormons will not even engage in an exchange of ideas. They are always on the defense and persecuted and "know" everything. It is this superiority complex that overrides everything. It is the same superiority and specialness that has the church releasing statements regarding the TSM Fraud case that include words like bizarre and unfounded. They act like they are above the law and do not have to answer to anything or anyone. And this trickles down to the membership who feel the same way. History has not always been kind to God's Chosen People. There is a bulliness aspect to it all. We are better than you is their overriding message. I see it in the LDS legislature that runs the state of Utah, I see it in neighbors and I see it in my own family. It took leaving the cult to see that I may have even exhibited it myself, at one time in life.
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Posted: 13 February 2014 09:21 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Phillip (hagiasophia)
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seeking peace:
After an emotional exchange with family members for daring to post the Open Letter on my FaceBook account, I realized how special they all think they are. Mormons believe they are above civil dialogue. I have had college classes where we had to chat online, much like we do here at Post-Mo. We all know the rules up front. We all remain civil. We do not resort to name-calling. We try to state our opinions in a clear and succinct manner. Most Mormons will not even engage in an exchange of ideas. They are always on the defense and persecuted and "know" everything. It is this superiority complex that overrides everything. It is the same superiority and specialness that has the church releasing statements regarding the TSM Fraud case that include words like bizarre and unfounded. They act like they are above the law and do not have to answer to anything or anyone. And this trickles down to the membership who feel the same way. History has not always been kind to God's Chosen People. There is a bulliness aspect to it all. We are better than you is their overriding message. I see it in the LDS legislature that runs the state of Utah, I see it in neighbors and I see it in my own family. It took leaving the cult to see that I may have even exhibited it myself, at one time in life.
If you look back at Mormon history, hasn't it always been this way? Wherever the Mormons went they acted as if they were the chosen ones above the laws that governed everyone else. Joseph Smith being the great example of this. Normal rules about decent human behavior (like not marrying your friend's wife) never seem to apply to him.
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Posted: 13 February 2014 09:38 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
rain
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The idea that we are special and chosen appeals to some pretty basic needs . I think on many levels we still have 'lizard' brains. The idea of survival of the fittest being high on the list. What better way to feel safe, in an unsafe world, than knowing without a shadow of a doubt that we are better, smarter, more likely to be 'saved' than other homo-sapiens. The problem is, it just isn't true. All of us humans are vulnerable to the same problems and depending on where you were born the quality of life is very different. It is kind of sad that as Mormons we thought we were better than other people.
Posted: 13 February 2014 09:39 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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WinstonSmith
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seeking peace:
After an emotional exchange with family members for daring to post the Open Letter on my FaceBook account, I realized how special they all think they are. Mormons believe they are above civil dialogue. I have had college classes where we had to chat online, much like we do here at Post-Mo. We all know the rules up front. We all remain civil. We do not resort to name-calling. We try to state our opinions in a clear and succinct manner. Most Mormons will not even engage in an exchange of ideas. They are always on the defense and persecuted and "know" everything. It is this superiority complex that overrides everything. It is the same superiority and specialness that has the church releasing statements regarding the TSM Fraud case that include words like bizarre and unfounded. They act like they are above the law and do not have to answer to anything or anyone. And this trickles down to the membership who feel the same way. History has not always been kind to God's Chosen People. There is a bulliness aspect to it all. We are better than you is their overriding message. I see it in the LDS legislature that runs the state of Utah, I see it in neighbors and I see it in my own family. It took leaving the cult to see that I may have even exhibited it myself, at one time in life.
As frustrating as your point is, I always try to remember this simple statement: "you cannot blame them for who they are. After all they are a product of their environment."
I watch the first season of "Once Upon a Time" on Netfilx and thought, this is the perfect metaphor for TSCC. The all live in this town "Story Brooke" the world is oblivious to them and they are oblivious to the world. They all think they are living a normal life, when in fact they are living under a curse by the wicked queen. Little by little a few people become aware of their circumstances and events are set into motion that break the curse.
Stay tuned for next season of TSCC.
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Posted: 13 February 2014 11:30 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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Tessa
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It's Joseph Smith trying to take Jewish "specialness...god loves us the most...as his chosen folks" and transplant it into his own made-up religion. Funny thing about god...he switches sides frequently...if past history is any indication.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin
Posted: 13 February 2014 01:49 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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seeking peace
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Thanks WinstonSmith--it is always good to remember that they are products of the environment. Unfortunately, this specialness is endemic to the whole culture. Just like in Animal Farm--"Everyone is special, but some are more special than others." Anyone who has been in a ward, knows that there is a group of "special" people--with just a few more perks than the rest. I recall being at Grand America Sunday Brunch in SLC, taking a much needed break from my three year nursery calling. It was quiet, a harp playing, lovely food and I was racked with guilt. A few minutes later a very large family invades the place. I listened as one man came and talked to the couple behind me. One a mission president-one a temple president-they were using this quiet Sunday to treat their families to a very expensive holiday brunch. Hmmm, must have had that "special" God annointing that allowed for such Sunday activities. I realized then that nursery leaders and those above them didn't live in the same world. TSM thinks he is obviously above the same laws that my husband must abide by in the business world--and he probably does it guilt free being a God an all.
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Posted: 15 February 2014 12:11 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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Lathspelle
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When I first started to look closely at Joe smith I noted 2 things.
1). He was attracted to the idea of *philosopher-kings* that he would have come across in his studies and from some of the educated men around him.
If You look this up , it will tell u all u need to know about why Joe did what he did and behaved as he did and why the following GA's of the church up to the present day think they can do no wrong. Unfortunatley this delusion spreads through to some of the members.
2). His own Mother reported that Joe frequently sat staring into space for hours on end....Human beings don't do that uneless they have a serious mental or physical disability.
Both of us (myself and husband) have added our names to your letter , hopefully we may scare the GA's enough to realise that not all people are submissive Utah TBM's...Hopefully
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Posted: 15 February 2014 11:25 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
Felix
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This whole topic reminds me of what turned me off to the church when I discovered the expanded church history. It really bothered me that Joseph Smith behaved as though he was above both religious and civil law. He behaved as though he WAS the law and anyone that questioned this notion was some how in sin and not in tune with the laws of God.
What about the “Golden Rule”; would he have been OK with some other mans sleeping with his wife Emma? I don't think so even if God had supposedly commanded it. I don't believe he could have bent his will in obedience to the things he expected of others. Faith is a fragile thing. Show me your faith by your walk, not your talk. His obedience to commandments and sacrifices often looked more like indulgences than sacrifices. Much of what he did and said comes across as displays of hubris and ego.
There is considerable evidence that he occasionally put out the order to have some one killed or “put out of the way” if they caused him or the church difficulty. I think this kind of thing was against the law. What about 12th article of faith “we believe in obeying, honoring and sustaining the law?”
He felt that in spite of the fact that he controlled the consumption of liquor and strictly forbade any displays of public drunkenness in Nauvoo, he himself could not be brought to account for his own occasional displays of public drunkenness as was demonstrated in the case of Almon Babbitt. The destruction of his press was condemned but yet he put out the order to have the Nauvoo Expositor destroyed.
His life was truly a demonstration of contradiction and double standards. It was all this that brought me to take a closer look where I found much more that the church had hidden. I left when I discovered the church was inherently dishonest when honesty didn't serve them. For me trust (honesty) is an integral and indispensable component of faith.
‹‹ "Your very life if neccessary . . ." Family first at a wedding? Ya think? ››
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